>

If you're willing to accept someone transitioning into the other binary gender, why is it so difficult to accept that someone doesn't think they fit into either binary gender? What makes that so silly?
More importantly, every single one of your arguments was used against binary trans people. Why are you right when those people were wrong?
/u/Heap_Good_Firewater (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post.
All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed here, in /r/DeltaLog.
Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended.
^Delta System Explained ^| ^Deltaboards >

At first I thought it was a typo until I saw it repeated over and over. 
The heck is a nibling? >

Gender-neutral for niece or nephew. I have accidentally said “nibblet” a couple times >

Pardon me, but what exactly is the derogatory h-word you mentioned?
hetero? homo? >

Probably hermaphrodite >

Isnt that the scientific term for that phenomenon tho? >

Not in humans. It’s called ”intersex”. ”Hermaphodite” is a zoological term. >

Ah TIL ty! >

Same.  42 years old.  never knew it was wrong to say hermaphrodite >


I draw the line at "non-binary". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50? 

Non-binary doesn't mean "half and half." >

If you’re not half and half, then you must identify slightly more with one gender, right?
My question is why not go with that gender (again, regardless of sex at birth)? >

If you don't like chocolate or vanilla it's not a matter of 50/50, it doesn't necessarily mean you like any other flavour either. >

OK, this is interesting, but also concerning.
My friend's son was traumatized to have female body parts. He would wrap his breasts tightly (probably too tightly) when going to school.
Based on your analogy, they hate chocolate, and chocolate is what they are being served, but switching to vanilla won't help. 
At least gender reassignment (not only talking about the surgical/hormonal option) can offer some increased quality of life for trans men and women. It seems like a non-binary person can't be happy period. Hopefully it is more complicated than that. >

I know you're already done with this thread (as per the edits) but I wanted to add something that might help here. You're actually right on this one. I identify as nonbinary but the more accurate would be agender. Being chocolate is horrible for me but becoming vanilla wouldn't help or change anything, it would be equally horrible in different ways. And that sucks. It sucks that there are no good options but honestly the REAL reason it sucks is that even though there are no good options for me I'm still forced to pick a side and picking a side when all sides are horrible, deeply upsetting options is a really terrible place to be. I'm forced to pick a side bc, here's the thing about gender, it's both a personal identity and a social identity. People put their gendered expectations on me everywhere I go, I get zero say in that, it just happens as a normal, standard aspect of existing in a gendered society. Everyone I meet sees me as some kind of gender and whatever their ideas are about how I look to them inform how they treat me and what they expect of me so my options are either fight a losing battle (since most people who've spent their entire lives living in a gendered society and seeing everything through a gendered lens aren't going to magically stop having gendered expectations just bc they upset me) or just accept it and move on. I choose to accept it and move on bc I personally dont feel like wasting energy on impossible battles... but I still hate it (don't mistake composure for ease). Every interaction I have that involves people picking a side for me is in some way terrible for me. Sometimes it's in small ways, sometimes it's more significant, but it's always there, it's like chronic pain but emotional and social. And I accept living this way simply bc there's no option for living without it, if I could opt out of the gendered system I'd do it in a heartbeat but I can't so constant emotional pain is the only option (since I'm not going to choose nonexistence over this but there are plenty of suicidal non binary people in the world who'd rather not exist than exist that way). 
So yes, it is distressing to be agender or non binary in this way, you're absolutely right to be concerned, it's incredibly concerning. >

Δ 
I have read responses from people who roughly fit my stereotype of non-binary as people who are “exploring and experimenting” with their gender, but are not overly disturbed by the minor disconnect between their sex and gender.
I was surprised to hear stories like yours, and they sound more like the stories of trans men and women that I am familiar with. 
It has certainly made me think. At the very least, there is more diversity in the non-binary world than I suspected.
Don’t let people like me get you down. Society gradually but inexorably becomes more progressive, but there are setbacks along the way. Hang in there. >

Couldn't non binary also simply mean someone who doesn't care for the whole concept of gender to begin with and wishes others wouldn't be seeing them as one of two genders. Experimenting isn't really something that comes to mind when I hear non binary. Maybe it's because I've always thought gender stereotypes and treating people according to gender stereotypes is ridiculous that the opposition to gender binary aspect is the first thing to come to mind when I hear non binary . Personally I've always been indifferent to which gender other people see me as but being seen as a man also doesn't bother me enough for me to tell people to stop assuming. >

Nah, that would be non-chalant not non-binary >

My view of my own gender is definitely non chalant or indifferent yes. But wouldn't someone who finds the whole concept of gender offensive to begin with and doesn't wish to identify as one for that reason be non-binary? >

Don’t ask me I only tried to post a funny comment I don’t have the critical thinking required to weigh in with any real conviction >

Hello! I’m non-binary. As others have said, “exactly 50-50” isn’t so much a thing. I identify as neither man nor woman. I’m not a butch woman or an effeminate man. I’m just a person who had massive gender dysphoria before surgery.
I also don’t correct people about my pronouns, because it turns out I don’t want my gender or lack thereof being discussed at every possible opportunity. I don’t call myself non-binary for any perceived benefit; it just happens to perfectly describe my experience. >

Doesn't this just enforce gender roles? 
No one is the perfect embodiment of man or woman and everyone deviates from what those terms imply in many aspects. Someone being non binary implies they deviate from what we consider men and women too, but non binary considers those terms more strict than they actually are.
Effeminate men are still men like you said, humans without arms or legs are still humans, women who have hysterectomies are still women etc. It seems more like a rejection for rejection's sake. >

Hey, I’m honestly all for “rejection for rejection’s sake”. To me, gender stuff is stupid! But if you’re going to eliminate the term non-binary because it’s unnecessary, you surely have to do the same with man and woman, too. They’re all as unnecessary as each other. 
That said, I also know that it’s important to some people. They really care about the role society puts on them. So as long as they’re not espousing any particularly toxic views, they can go ahead and do what they want. 
While I do have ideas about gender, primarily, all I care about is getting to live in the body I want. I can live with the stupid labels. >

I'm not saying we should eliminate the term, just that we recognize it probably is reinforcing gender roles more than it's dismantling them. I find that societally interesting given how much pushback there is for gender roles in modern rhetoric. >

Like everyone else, trans and non-binary people fulfill or reject gender roles at completely different levels from one another. I don’t think there’s any way to say that their existence in general validates these roles any more than the fact that the words ‘man’ and ‘woman’ exist at all. 
But I’m not a gender theorist. I’m not the person who should be arguing this specific point. It just feels weird to be told I’m reinforcing gender roles because I had some surgery. >

Everyone is non binary in terms of perfectly adhering to one end of the gender spectrum. It's also a moving target so even if someone was the perfect embodiment of "man" 100 years ago in the West, they may not be now. 
No one is the perfect pinnacle of man or woman and extracting oneself from that equation entirely is basically saying that there's zero configuration of the man / woman continuum that could possibly describe someone accurately. We're all humans with human parts, we are going to be accurately described by some configuration of the terms we use to describe humans. That's why non binary seems like it's something performative. Non binary doesn't seem to be used as "somewhere in the middle," it's used to say that someone is outside the gender continuum entirely and that reinforces the idea that man and woman are too restrictive to embody some humans and that reinforces gender roles.
An example is building something. Men traditionally build stuff, women don't traditionally build stuff according to very strict gender roles. If a man doesn't build stuff, that doesn't make him a woman. If a woman builds stuff, that doesn't make her a man. If someone rejects the idea of building stuff, that doesn't make them outside that continuum, that aspect just doesn't really apply to them because that one aspect doesn't dictate whether someone exists on a sliding scale. So consequentially, essentially saying someone exists outside of the human gender spectrum reinforces that the spectrum has bounds. It doesn't really, it's just a sliding scale that encompasses the entirety of human gender expression. It's not even gendered at that point, we include everything on the scale because it's a representation of the range of our behaviors as humans. >

I can’t find anything I disagree with in that. The one question for me is why are man and woman still the ends of the spectrum at all? It’s clearly pretty useless in most areas! >

Being non-binary doesn't mean 'being 50/50'. Gender presentation (such as being an effeminate man or being a tomboy) also has nothing to do with transgender people. 
Being non-binary isn't about getting anything, it's about who a person is - non-binary in the same way that you're your gender and I'm my gender.
Intersex people (in which hermaphrodite is a highly offensive term, from what I recall) for the most part also don't use they/them pronouns. >

Can you define being non-binary? How does one know that they are non-binary if they have no basis to go on? What does it practically mean for their life? (I am genuinely trying to learn) >

I'd ask non-binary people. The extent of my knowledge of non-binary people is that it's both a nominer for a gender and a collection of genders which don't fit the binary of 'man' and 'woman', meaning that the answer likely varies even wider than if you asked individual men or women, given the sheer expanse of what the descriptor contains.
In terms of practicality, though, I imagine it's the same as what it means for you to be your gender and what it means for me to be a man. >

I don't think it means *anything* to be a certain gender. Any expectations or stereotypes associated with either gender is just socially constructed. I just don't understand why being non-binary is necessary or what inside them compels them to reject the gender binary >

Expectations and stereotypes mean nothing, sure, I'm wholly for removing all expectations and stereotypes. Gender itself isn't limited to them. Anyone of any gender can flip the bird to all of them and still be their own gender. That doesn't mean that we all fit into two categories of gender. >

But why? That's the part I don't understand. If you strip out the expectations and stereotypes etc., what is left to disagree with? >

The description of their gender doesn't match with 'man' or 'woman'.
I don't fit the description of every man or even most men but my gender is still that of a man. That's simply what I am, the descriptive term that fits my gender, where non-binary doesn't. For non-binary people (at least, those who's gender doesn't have any ties to being men), it's the opposite. >

That seems exceedingly ill defined. Thank you though, I will think on it >

I happened to mention to my daughter that when I've been single I think of myself as a "person" rather than a "woman". She said, "Mum - you're non-binary!" Idk if this helps at all. I don't feel any gender dysphoria, though. >

nonbinary can also mean you don't identify as either gender identities >

I will never understand this, but for the sake of argument let’s say that’s true.
Why not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier? >


Why not identify publicly with sex at birth to make your daily life easier?

Imagine if everyone constantly misgendered you. Would you switch to make your daily life easier? >

I don’t believe that non-binary is a gender, so this argument only makes sense for trans people (whom I wouldn’t misgender on purpose). >

Do you identify as male or female? >

Male >

If you were constantly referred to as female, would you change your identity to make your daily life easier? >

Yes? Not OP, and it would seem bizarre, but my sex is like my skin or eye colour, or my ethnicity. Why should I care? Why should anyone care about what theirs is, beyond how it affects how people treat you? 
It would bother me more that it's technically incorrect than if it felt somehow an inadequate descriptor.
I cannot seem to comprehend why people care, beyond acknowledging a discomfort and obsession with being different that cannot be satisfied any other way. I don't blame people for feeling that way, but I don't understand. >

Well I remember coming of age in the early 2000s when it was at least part of the conversation to be gay/lesbian, but being bisexual just meant you were probably a slutty college girl that wanted attention. Obviously, we know that was wrong. >


I draw the line at "non-binary". What are the odds you’re exactly 50/50?

That's not what Non-binary means.  It means your identity is not best expressed or experienced as a member of either binary gender category.  You don't have to be exactly half man half woman in terms of your gender.  
Most of the non-binary people I know identify that way because they feel more comfortable not identifying as either male or female.  That's the "advantage", same as any other gender identity (including cisgender), more or less. >

Curious, what is the reason for someone’s pronouns being her/them? They are ok with being female pronouns but then added on a nonbinary pronoun for what reason? >

They mean they're ok with either female or non-binary pronouns. >

I guess what’s confusing to me is if you are neither man nor woman then why include a pronoun that identifies you as a man or woman? >

They aren't necessarily saying they're non-binary. Just that they're fine with non-binary pronouns (which can be used for anybody).
Or they are non-binary but are saying it's fine if you use binary pronouns matching their birth sex because they don't care too much about it. >

Do people need to consent to be called they/them though?  I would think that’s not necessary and just part of language sometimes… >

Sometimes people include it as an indication of support for the concept of they/them pronouns in general, or just to indicate that they'll be okay with it if you like, forget their binary pronoun and default to an ambiguous one or something like that. 
For some people (usually trans people who have a lot of dysphoria or trauma from misgendering), sticking exclusively to their binary pronoun is important. Saying you use he/they or she/they can basically just be saying "it won't bother me if you call me they". >

Hermaphrodite’s or those with genitals not matching their body because of extra chromosomes or those missing parts because of broke chromosomes has nothing to do with transgenderism or non-binary…ism. Those are genetic mutations. Legitimate mess ups. What is happening though is that a lot of people are trying use actual genetic mutations to build a more solid foundation under their viewpoint. Like I promise nobody polled all the 5 hermaphrodites and asked them if the hermaphrodite was offensive. They need to get rid of the word hermaphrodite because lots of people know what it means and thus ruins the whole argument. >

You can either think of it as
Purple is not red or blue. It is purple. It has pieces of both but to call it red is just wrong, it's not red it's purple..
Or
Yellow. It has nothing to do with red or blue, it does not contain red or blue, it is a completely different color. Just because it's not red does not make it blue. 
Has there never been a day where you didn't feel masculine? Where you didn't want to do the masculine thing. You don't want to do anything feminine, you just don't want to do the masculine. >


Has there never been a day where you didn't feel masculine? Where you didn't want to do the masculine thing. You don't want to do anything feminine, you just don't want to do the masculine

this is a bad example. this describes every human. >

Now imagine feeling that every day. You don't feel masc or fem. Or you always feel both masc and fem. That's what their nibbling feels.
OP said they could not understand nonbinary so I related it to something they might have felt themself at some point. >

TIL I'm non-binary (a person) >

I'm mean... Do you always feel like you don't want to be masc or fem? Or do you always feel like you want to be both?
Because it's up to you how you identify but those are the two most common non binary feelings.
You don't have to identify as anything. Like I am AFAB and am fine living as a cis woman, but I have strong penis envy and like a lot of masc thing and not so many fem things. I internally identify as I-dont-give-a-shit which I have non binary friends tell me they often feel the same. >

Who thinks in these terms on a daily basis. You just are who you are. Your internal voice actually says things like "I don't feel like doing this feminine thing" ? You just don't feel like doing that thing, and thats it.
The whole gender identity is so ill-defined there is actually no point, in my perspective. You just are who you are. We need to just stick to addressing people with their sex and keep your "gender identity" away from the facts >


the h-word is offensive/derogatory. "Middlesex" from here on out. Apologies

Small nitpick, "intersex." Source: Dated an intersex guy in college. He had both bits. It was pretty neat. >

That’s what I meant. My wife has a book called Middlesex in our bookshelf and somehow that sprang to mind >

It just means “look at me!” >

I think that's dismissive. Tbh I think it's more like people who feel like they lack control in life. Maybe from some previous trauma where agency was taken from them or disrespected, or a mountain of those instances. They'd probably call this evaluation dismissive too though, so what do I know. >

I think one or both is usually true, but you’re right. It is funny that the person you described is the type that is most prone to joining cults. >

I don’t understand it either. Non binary makes no sense to me.
But it also doesn’t matter if it makes sense to me. Like, I personally don’t understand a lot of things other people go through. It’s one of those things, you don’t really have to understand. >

every individual's experience of their gender is unique and valid
for some people, identifying as non-binary is a way to express that their gender identity does not align with traditional binary concepts of "male" or "female.” >

Why is everyone's experience of gender automatically valid? >

Especially when if it were someone’s experience of race they’d be shut down, even though the differences between races are way smaller than those between sexes >

People call this false equivalence but then can't explain why