>

this is how u know russia's running out of money
Just for your interest, even if 100% of Switzerland would want this, it won't happen fast.
If the parlament won't do a Special law (like the COVID law) for instance, which was highly debated here, then it will at least take some months because all the preperations will need to be set, including rewriting the law so the  majority is happy. >

I very much doubt they'll do this. There's cool Swizz folk but there's a reason they're the worlds largest haven for bloodmoney for the last 100 years and it sure as fuck isn't because they overall care so much about their fellow man. >

You're not wrong, but there is a news story out last week in Swiss papers that multiple firms in the defense industry have lost contracts because of Switzerland's refusal to allow re-export of weapons and ammunition to Ukraine.
So money vs money >

Damn, I wonder which will win? >

I'd say whichever brings more money! Yay money! 😀 >

I'd say whatever the SVP wants more.
Neutrality or Stronk Military...
It's going to look like that meme with tge two buttons. >

Just watch, they'll do both and still do nothing lol >

You mean they've considered discussing the possibility of potentially deciding if maybe they should open a dialogue about deliberating the concept of contemplating if they should renounce neutrality... >

The Problem is always the path forward, Swiss politics are SLOW, like REALLY SLOW. The only time they acted quick was because of Covid and even then they asked for "permission" aftwards to continue with their policies.
If this ever gets to be voted on, it will be mid to end of this year. >

To put it into context for those unaware, the Swiss largely still do direct democracy, meaning literally ANY voter can challenge or propose just about anything, and every decision is run by the people in a vote, not the representatives they choose (which the Swiss do have reps, they just don’t have the final say).
Politics is slow there because legally, everyone plays a part in what’s going on. >

Seems kinda cool though. Wonder if that could be implemented on like a local level here in the states. >

Was just thinking I could see it on a state, but not federal, level.
Maybe in order to propose something instead of 1 person, it could be a petition of say any 500 people?  That'd cut down on the quantity of crazy crap on paper... >

Its also more than one person in Switzerland. 50k for referenda and 100k for initiatives. >

Ah yup that'd work.
Thanks bud >

Stress on “may”
Edit: Seem like I may have inadvertently subscribed to “Switz facts”
Edit2: I really didn’t expect, or wanted, this low effort comment to become my all-time best. But thanks, I guess, maybe I should retire now >

It very likely be decided by the people. Swiss Politics are slow and politicians in Switzerland rarely take initiative on big and visible topics because if there is one thing the Swiss do well is, is hold a grudge. >

Grudges...gold...mountains
Dwarfish of them >

Ok you go in the book of grudges >

Not very rock and stone of them at all >

Rock and Stone! >

If you don't Rock and Stone you ain't coming home! >

Rock! And! STOOOOONEEE! >

Rock and stone to the bone! >

Give me an R! Give me an S! Give me a rock and stone! >

“All I know is my gut says maybe.” >

What makes a country turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were they just born with a heart full of neutrality?
...oh shit, in this case it's definitely lust for gold. >

More like getting conquered by napoleon and him rewriting the swiss constitution to be permanently neutral >

I don't think the looming threat of an invading Napoleon keeps them from rewriting their constitution these days >

Literally the same source, no? 
OP's article mentions their source is Reuters >

Likely the original source yeah. Many outlets seem to be using it as primary reference now. Though each is spinning it at least slightly differently, as usual. >

Reuters is a wire service so they've always been used by news services like this. >

Yeah that's totally fair. Headlines draw readers and clicks :) Just figured I'd bring attention to the source as I'd been seeing various outlets spinning it with more opinion than fact. This article was pretty tame compared to the others I've seen. It's nothing new of course. >

I like it when Switzerland comes up in the sub because it reminds me to not trust anyone posts or says here. 
People have a lot of pre-conceived ideas based on very little knowledge and a lot of clichés. When you know more than the bare minimum it becomes incredibly apparent. All you get is either a circle-jerk in one direction, or a circle jerk in the opposite direction. Facts, critical thought and nuance be damned. >


Buyers of Swiss arms are legally prevented from re-exporting them, a restriction that some representing the country's large weapons industry say is now hurting trade.

This is about them making money, helping Ukraine is just a nice bonus. >

It seems European nations are scrambling as arms sales shifted to South Korea seemingly overnight. From 31st in weapons sales in 2000 to 8th in 2017 to possibly 3rd or 4th after the latest rounds of weapons deals they have signed with European countries last month. They surpass pretty much every nation but the US and China in sales at the moment. Their sales are triple that of 2 years ago. >

Well nobody else in the west has weapons factories running, not even the US for a lot of ground troop stuff (no new abrans or bradlys are being made, only upgrades). >

Abrams are made, they keep the Factory running just in case, it’s just very few per year. >

Really have to F up to make the Swiss not neutral >

Fun fact: "Burkart", who the article names as the politician who proposed the change, is the name of one of Switzerland weapon manufacturers >

Which company exactly, i could not find one called burkart. >

None, he’s lying >

Lmao never ever is that gonna happen. Aliens have to invade earth for Swiss to be not neutral. Clickbait. >

If Aliens pay well they remain neutral still. >

What bothers me about this article is that nowhere in my country is any of this news. What I can confirm through searching up the topic real quick on google is that indeed puplic opinion is swaying strongly in favor of delivering weapons to Ukraine. But the whole thing with the "leader of the FDP" saying this and that is news to me, if you look up his Twitter he hasn't posted or shared anything in that regard, you also don't find anything like what was said in that article on his personal website or that of the FDP itself. Furthermore "leader of the FDP" sounds like a big deal but it really isn't, the central head of our goverment is the "Bundesrat" and none of them have said anything of the sort either.
So yeah, I don't really know about this article. Source - I'm Swiss. >

It was on SRF like 1-2 weeks ago. Few SVP and FDP politicians in favour cause "the economy".
With a big statment from Blocher that this is nuts. >

Some of y'all should probably know that swiss financial sanctions on russia are exactly the same as everyone else in the EU. >

And a lot more strict that the US sanctions >

Modern and expanding financial regulations have limited how neutrality benefits their banking industry. A lot of new money from outside Eurasia are using other havens. The Swiss cultural outlook toward independence and/or highly selective militarism may be the bigger stumbling block in this purported move. I’m not sure of the EU’s stance on Swiss neutrality but I’d be interested to know if they view this as good politics. Switzerland remains diplomatically convenient at least. My personal view is neutrality is amoral AT BEST. Considering the Swiss have benefitted from atrocities, and sheltered the wealth of awful people, regimes and corporations, I’d say it’s immoral in their case. >

The issue is, Switzerland sees itself as a medietor between rivaling countries, it's hard to be that when you start taking sides.
It's not a coincidence that many neutral world stage institutions reside in Switzerland.
One could argue having such an entity is beneficial like other world wide entities that encourages diplomacy.
Banks don't give a shit nowadays, there is no banking secrecy any more, they have to provide all information to any outside government. You can't hide money better in Switzerland than any other tax haven in the world. Switzerland is doing well in banking because they have the knowhow and are trusted to know what they are doing (except maybe Credit Suisse, fuck them) >

Yeah, that’s why I was wondering how bodies like the EU would view this. Some of the most important diplomacy is the ongoing stuff you don’t hear about because it’s actually solving issues. Effective work that never results in flashy headlines because that actually implies you let the problem get big enough to be noticed. However, because of the nature of the work, I can’t gauge how integral Switzerland OR neutrality actually IS anymore. Does the latter not feel like a very outdated concept? (Not that feelings are the only things that matter.) >

I mean the Civil War in Mocambique was considered unsolvable when one relentless swiss diplomat did achieve that. Very well possible that Good Services like this will become a thing of the past if you are openly siding with your de facto allies: It will be much harder to convince factions that you are here to negotiate with neutral intentions when your nation isn't neutral. >

In other words, Russia has to pay more hush money. >

I've lived in Switzerland for a while and love the country to death, so it's sad to see all the hate against it. Switzerland has accepted 70,000 Ukrainian refugees into an already densely populated country of 8 million, some of whom live in my village. Also in Zürich the flag of Ukraine is flown instead of the usual city flags. I empathize deeply with the tragedy of war in Ukraine, and I've donated to a refugee fund. I feel like Switzerland getting involved in this war could be extremely dangerous for Switzerland, and I'm not sure pouring more fuel on the fire will even help, especially considering the war has the potential to escalate up to nuclear war, which could end humans as a species.
Switzerland was also an active member of the OSCE mission to Ukraine before the full scale invasion. They facilitated negotiations and provided non-lethal aid to people on both sides of the civil war. They are also familiar with the concerns of Russian speaking Ukrainians, who haven't been treated so well. None of that excuses what Russia has done, and most Swiss people agree, but it's a difficult reality to grapple with.
Switzerland is a small country and has to be extremely tactical and defensive about it's use of military force, because it doesn't stand much of a chance if it becomes a serious target for any country close to super-power status.
Also Switzerland defence industry is a pretty small portion of the countries economy, so I don't think this will make much of a difference anyways.
Swiss people for the most part abhor violence. The people I know don't even really like war movies, violent video games, etc., the country has one of the lowest murder rates in the world, no death penalty, etc. >

Big if true. >

Switzerland has had a military neutrality in place since Treaty of Paris, 1815.
Switzerland to forgo their neutrality, which has lasted for 208 years, they know something we're not privy too.
I hope this war ends soon, we've been at war for far too long.
I would like to feel what peace feels like before I leave here. >

I almost wonder if the difference is that citizens can see live video feed of how insane war is. Instead of just hearing about it and being able to forget, literal pages and pages of videos exist on the internet dispersed in all kinds of places so that we don’t forget. It kinda becomes harder to ignore and harder to say “but we must remain neutral” >

The rarest X on your End of the World Bingo! >

CLICKBAIT TITLE. We will NOT provide military aid to Ukraine and renounce neutrality. It's about not stopping other countries (Germany, etc) that have bought our stuff from giving it to Ukraine.
But I think we should provide military aid, because by attacking to land-grab Russia is clearly attacking us all by violating UN Charter article 2(4): "All members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations."
This means the whole UN is now technically at war with Russia, which means that technically we could send whole battalions to help Ukraine tomorrow and it would be lawful and not make us not neutral. It's just a question of politics and public opinion at this point. After everyone decided to send Leos it opened the floodgates even here. >


This means the whole UN is now technically at war with Russia, which means that technically we could send whole battalions to help Ukraine tomorrow and it would be lawful and not make us not neutral.

This is just creative writing and completely false. The text doesn't even involve actions regarding when one is attacked, you made that up. It quite literally says "one should not do war", not what happens when there is war. If entire UN is at war with Russia, why hasn't anybody attacked Russia or Russia attacked e.g. Poland, through which weapons are delivered?
The text that govern UN military action is found at Chapter 7: Action with Respect to Threats to the Peace, Breaches of the Peace, and Acts of Aggression (Articles 39-51). Article 42 notes that UN can take military action when:

Should the Security Council consider that measures provided for in Article 41 would be inadequate or have proved to be inadequate, it may take such action by air, sea, or land forces as may be necessary to maintain or restore international peace and security. Such action may include demonstrations, blockade, and other operations by air, sea, or land forces of Members of the United Nations.

This has happened a few times, most notably in Korean and Gulf wars, which had UN-authorized coalitions. Russia will never, ever sanction military action against itself as it can veto Security Council propositions. 
Article 51 meanwhile notes that individual and collective self-defence is inheritently allowed, until SC has the ability to restory stability. Once again, Russia has the veto. 

Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security. >

Interesting. Unlikely to happen, but if it were, as a result of escalations in the east, it may be the entire end of military neutrality as a whole.
Being Irish, it's a topic of some concern. >

What's the incentive for Switzerland? >

Color me possibly surprised >

Ah yes because the Swiss would give up 200 years of armed neutrality for Ukraine but not for any of the other wars the have occurred during that time. Yeah never going to happen. >

This hurts one of their bread and butter industries defense, no ones gonna buy swiss if they cant even move ammo around >


At the heart of the dispute is Germany’s desire to send 12,400 35mm rounds (manufactured by Oerlikon-Bührle, a Swiss company which no longer exists) to Ukraine, bought decades ago to restock the Gepard air defense tanks, also known as “Cheetah” flak guns.
The original sales contract for the Swiss-made munitions specified that if Berlin wanted to re-sell or donate these munitions, it needed to obtain a license from Switzerland — and there is a law on the books in Switzerland that forbids defense equipment from being re-exported to conflict zones.

I can see why Germany has the same restrictions on their tanks. I can't quite see the need for that restriction on ammunition. Generally relying on someone else to make your ammunition sounds like a bad idea. >

And I may take a shower this week, but will I? >

What an unpredictable guy >

I thought they already did provide military aid to Ukraine? >

So far just hamanitarian and switzerland follows eu sanctions. >

Crazy to think a right-leaning party put forward this motion. Did a double take and then realized that it's Switzerland, not the USA. The overton window sits right-ish in Switzerland from my experience, but I bet a Swiss center-right party is still more left-leaning than the Democrats. >

I fear a lot of them are supporting it because they want to help the Swiss weapon industry and not because they're philanthropists >

Paid for by reallocated oligarch money???? >

At what point does Russia realize/admit how badly they fucked up? >

Ireland is neutral officially but was very much aligned with the allies in WW1. I'd expect the swiss will find a way to make this work without a full shift in foreign policy >

You know you fucked up when Switzerland considers taking a side. >

Sod off you Swiss Cnt’s that’s the least you could do. 
Considering you contributed to laundering most of the worst criminal and warlords (including hitlers) money for them for decades and decades, inadvertently enabling them to do untold damage to society as a whole. 
All under the guise of neutrality. >

There is no neutrality. If you dont help, you’re a part of the problem. 
If you see someone being bullied, and ignores it/remains neutral, you’re aligning yourself with the bully. >

Neutrality doesn’t exist! Passivism sure but not neutrality. They may renounce passivism would be a more fitting title. >

When Switzerland considers not being neutral in order to oppose you, you know you done messed up. >

Swiss have never been neutral, refusing to sell weapons to Ukraine but taking billions of dollars from Russian government isn't neutrality. >

Imagine being such insufferable cunt that Switzerland renounces their neutrality just to help to beat your ass. >

You know shits fucked when the swiss are picking sides. >

If you reached this point, Russia is going to be on the wrong side of history >

What makes a man turn neutral? Lust for gold? Power? Or were you just born with a heart full of neutrality? >

What makes a man neutral? >

Lust for gold? Power? >

Think about it how much of a disgrace to humanity You must be to get the Swiss renouncing their neutrality. Even just considering is a big deal. >

Yes get in the game.  And bring your fancy knives >

Our rifles are also pretty fancy, and deadly accurate >

I‘m 99% sure this is nothing other than a PR stunt. I was already surprised that our goverment followed the sanctions against Russia as quickly as it did. As a general rule of thumb, if there‘s drastic political change in Switzerland, it happens 15-20 years after the rest of europe elected to do the same, or because other countries pressured Switzerland to change. There have been exceptions, but they‘re usually few and far between.
I would guess that our government will attempt to find a loophole to allow sending weapons to Ukraine, but from my experience, swiss neutrality is here to stay for the forseeable future. >

Russia, you should realize you are in the wrong when even the Swiss are considering intervention... 
The Swiss. >

All of the Russian oligarch cash has already flooded into their banking system, so now they can help. /s >

Switzerland follows the same sanctions as the EU. There was only a slight delay in applying them but most banks have followed the sanctions anyway.
The main issue are commodity trading companies, not banks. Those fuckers are insane. >

the money was moved long before any sanctions >

It kept going on way into the sanctions (worldwide, that isn't specific to Switzerland). A banker told me some stories about how easy it is to move money to unsanctioned friends or family members and all the bankers can do is shrug and execute these orders because if there aren't actually working sanctions against such moves everything else would be illegal.
A shitshow was all the goods producing companies with valid contracts in Russia that had to quickly figure out how to find a solution without getting sued/fined into oblivion or end up on some black list of some nation: Do I keep the goods and get sued by Russia for not fulfilling the contract? Can I send back prepayments to lower that risk? Can I send the products ordered pre-sanctions or will the state come after me? Some banking units and specialized lawyers didn't get a lot of sleep for a few months. >

It's not like aid is nationally defined. Switzerland is already helping Ukraine in many ways I am pretty sure of that >

Sounds like Oerlikon and Mowag want to move some inventory. >

how dare they >

Do it. Make russia become the one to pull Switzerland from neutrality. That will go into the historybooks. >

ehm no, will never happen. >

So putin will close his maternity house in Lugano now? 🥺 >

It's only Tuesday and already this is turning out to be a weird week. >

Maybe they should at least stop moving all those trillions of blood money everyone know they are doing. How about starting there? >

You know you fucked up if the Swiss are considering taking the side against you. >

How many Swiss Army knives are really needed to win this thing? My money is on just one, provided it’s in the right hands. >

Ôh shit, when de Swiss renounce...you know you don' fucked up, bro. >

The fact they even considered dropping neutrality is incredible to see >

Time is on short supply to beleaguered Ukraine, its army and its people for weapons to defend against the Soviet/Russian hordes massing another intended slaughter. Put down your napkins and chocolates Switzerland and take action please. >

We left our tanks at the gas station and somehow Ukraine has them now 🤷‍♂️ >

Damn, when Switzerland comes after you...you done fucked up! >

If they renounce, then truly Russia did the impossible possible, unite all of europe against a common enemy, well almost all of it >

Putin F'ed up so hard that even the F'ing Swiss are considering to not being neutral. Hot damn... >

I feel like if you make Switzerland renounce neutrality then you must be really fucking bad, even the nazis couldn't do it >

Thank you for your consideration, it goes against so many years of trying not to make choices. Ukraine can use your help >

Woah. This reminds me of when in Kill Bill, Hattori Hanzo vows to never make a sword again but ends up making one when he finds out who its going to be used for. It takes some real vile actions to make you break a position such as the one Switzerland is considering. >

Thought fence was kinda their whole thing…that and profiting of international criminals and making chocolate