>

Why can't we have both? 
There's no reason we can't have both.
Ehh I don't know about delays.  Definitely agree with the oversold flight aspect but if you tie a financial incentive to getting flights out on time I worry about the shitty airlines cutting corners and taking unnecessary risks to avoid those fees >

I’m pretty sure they do that anyway. >

Spirit Airlines - "60% of the time we are on time every time" >

Southwest Airlines - “Spirit Airlines will get you where you’re going.  How boring!  Fly with us and roll the dice!” >

Delta Airlines - "We're gonna frame you for murder!" >

You've got feminine hips! >

Love the /r/unexpectedmulaney >

"You're a little fat girl, aren't ya?"
"Noo..."
"SAY IT!"
"I'm a little fat girl..." >

Waiting for senators like Mitt Romney to be for this, until they vote against it >

Hey, since our beloved corporate citizens can’t vote, someone has to stand up for them!! No one is more oppressed than corporate citizens! >

The oppression of multi-billion dollar corporations is the greatest social injustice of our time. >

If you aren’t mad, you aren’t paying attention! >

You know the funniest (re:sad) part is that most of these corporations are "owned" by our retirement and pension funds. If those funds were to enact shareholder initiatives they could drive these corporations in an equitable direction. I think its been completely (and intentionally) overlooked that the largest shareholders of companies are these retirement funds. These retirement funds that give over control to wall street who then uses them to vote in their own interests, against the interests of the retirees. >

You guys are getting pensions?? >

It's a Democratic Bill that the House will reject simply because it is a Democratic Bill. >

Can just go on the long list of ways republicans screw over regular Americans. >

Idk, maybe I'm just absurdly poor but I feel like flying is for rich people. Wouldn't this be something that would benefit congressmen more than the average person? >

I think most people have at least flown domestically. I never understood overselling seats to begin with; don’t sell 30 tickets for 20 seats?? >

Best I can tell, it’s so my wife will pay an  extra $50/ticket for the “privilege” of having an assigned seat bc they don’t bump those w assigned seats. >

Unless they need to transport their employees to another place to start work/go home - then they'll bump you off anyway, quite literally. >

We shouldn’t have bailed em out. >

Not without taking stock in trade. Frankly all corporate subsidies and bailouts should be on the premise of the "People" owning however much stock they are paying for with said bailout. Couple that with a 10-15 year moratorium on stock buybacks and board bonuses for accepting the bailouts. >

Or just let the business fail, and don’t repeat what those businesses did >

We can't let them fail. They should have become government run. Same with rail. The privatization of everything is not the way. >

We can and should let poorly run businesses fail. >

Air travel is vital to the economy. The company needs to be taken over by the government. Not bailed out. They failed, and now are not a private business. It is not a hard concept. Rail needs to be taken over by the government as well. >

If the federal government would just buy the rails it would be a big improvement. It would lower costs through maintenance and lack of state and local taxes plus passenger trains could have priority instead of having to wait for freight trains. >

Just as one example, Union Pacific alone has a cash value of about 130 billion USD.
The net value of their long term assets like the land under the lines, the tracks, buildings/terminals, etc. is 57 billion USD (80 billion less 22 billion in depreciation) and doesn't consider second order liabilities that might be tied to the assets.  But, ownership of the tracks is what lets the rest of their business take up the rest of that value, so you'd pretty much have to nationalize the whole company instead of being able to just buy the tracks.
Now do this for the other major rail corporations in the country.
Unfortunately, there is no universe in which the population of the country would be willing to spend half a trillion dollars on buying a "gently used" rail system.
Maybe if we claim UP has discovered oil, and just try to convince people we need to liberate it from some terrorists somewhere (maybe blame it on ANTIFA, lol). >

Good point. Would you think nationalizing the railways might be an option? UP would lose the land as an asset but also the liabilities of maintaining the track and become more profitable (if less valuable overall). >

Unfortunately, I don't.
I couldn't identify repair and maintenance costs in their financial documents, but I did find a study that estimates track maintenance in the Northeast Corridor at about $50,000 per track mile per year, and another 2004 study from the Department of Transportation that puts annual maintenance costs at between 26 thousand USD and 80 thousand USD per track mile, so $50 thousand per track mile seems reasonable to use as an estimator.
This gives us annual maintenance costs of around $1.6 billion for the ~32,000 track miles that UP claims on its website.
The thing is that a lot of the other intangible value comes from the fact that UP can just send a train whenever they want, without having to book a train slot from the Government/a central holding company that owned all the tracks.  UP having to negotiate slots will mean a slice of its revenue is now going to that negotiation rather than itself, and because UP won't have as much control over their own schedule, it would mean their service is not as good as it is now, all else held equal.  Look at airports where airlines do need to negotiate for takeoff/landing spots; sometimes you get planes virtually empty of passengers because the airline wants to keep the capacity for vacation season or whatever.  Furthermore, forcing passenger rail to have priority would have the same effect, because now there are the delays from waiting for passenger rail that now need to be baked into the price of shipping goods for clients.
I suspect this would cause clients to switch from rail freight to semi-trucks, which is definitely a BAD outcome for society, since semis just can't match the efficiency of rail.  Freight rail is one of the most carbon efficient forms of shipping, period - a train can move 1 ton of weight like 500 miles on like 1 gallon of gas.
Personally, I believe passenger rail needs new, dedicated track, built in the same way that we would build some new interstate highways.  We basically recycled 100+ year old tracks to cobble Amtrak together, and as a result, we have a curvy system which will never have nationwide high speed rail on the existing tracking - we can't cheat physics on the curves that were designed for trains that didn't go as fast as trains can today. >

The EU has has their flight delay compensation plan. The US is way behind in protecting passengers because of airline lobbying. >

Yeah I was delayed 8 hours flying home to the states from Italy (the delay was caused by the airport in Lisbon) and missed a connection back stateside because of it… the airline paid me $900. Expedia reached out to me about it, I didn’t know such a thing existed. >

Did they pay you out in cash or credit toward the airline? >

Cash, but they will usually also offer you a larger amount of money (like more than they are required to under the law) in airline credit >

I was curious so I googled airline profit margins ans apparently for a commercial flight their margins are 11%
Not sure of this is gross, net, etc
But it means that they could give you 10% more towards a coupon and still break even or come out ahead since they will profit in other ways like duty free, parking fees, taxi fees, etc
It's why I only take company credit if it's higher than cash, and if I'm already going to be spending money with them. If that credit is burning a hole in my pocket and I look for ways to spend it they've won and I've lost. At least to me. >

Airline profits are notoriously fluky and airlines frequently go through periods of time operating at steep losses. I’m only saying this to point out one year of profits on average for all airlines is not a good way to form the foundation to an argument. >

Airlines are sort of like fuel hedging banks that also happen to transport people on the side. >

UPS buys all its fuel as futures and has their own petrol stations on property. A few years ago they bought a fuck-ton of futures at the absolute worst time. To the point where buying fuel at a public station was a dollar or more cheaper per gallon than fueling on-property. They just spun up a whack-ton of corporate fuel cards and told the drivers to refuel on route.
At some point, UPS factored in a fuel surcharge to all the shipping prices, additional to what they had already formulated in the past. >

I still don’t understand how it’s even legal to oversell a flight. >

Because they have stats which say that x% of people are not going to show up for their flight.
In the interest of customer service, the airline offers you a refund/credit when you miss your flight.  But if they're going to do that they don't want to just send the flight with x% empty seats they aren't getting paid for   So they overbook by x%.  Sometimes they miscalculate.  And it gets really difficult when disruptions occur.
But the other option is to not offer refunds and not overbook.  If you missed your flight, you missed it. The seat you purchased is 30,000 feet in the air and you're still in traffic on the highway.  Go buy another ticket on the next flight with space available if you still want to go.  
I don't think anyone wants that system. >

I'm genuinely curious what other industries operate with this calculation, though.  Do concert venues oversell because historically 2% of ticket buyers don't show?  What about professional sports games?  Cruise lines? >

Concert venues don't refund you if you choose not to attend.  That seat sits empty.  And it's your seat.  You can join halfway through the concert and catch the second act.  Or you can not show up at all. And they already have the money so they have no inclination to re-sell that seat.  Good luck joining your flight halfway through it.
The reason airlines are different is because it's a use it or lose it situation where they are offering refunds.
Most of those other examples are use it or lose its situation where refunds are not offered.  No matter what other industries are doing, the airlines are reasonable to overbook by some amount if they are going to offer you a refund. >


The reason airlines are different is because it's a use it or lose it situation where they are offering refunds.

Do they really give you a refund if you just miss your flight? I would expect to be SOL >

No refund, but they will almost always put you on standby for a future flight. >

Or rebook for a few and the price difference between tickets. Depends. >

Good. Airlines need to stop that bullshit >

How about seats designed for humans.
I'm 6'1" and the last time I flew my knees were in the back of the seat in front of me. It's a fucking cattle car. >

6'7" here and what pisses me off is how fucking often I book the seats with extended leg room only for them to change my flight at the last minute and force me to buy the upgrades seats AGAIN because for some fucking reason I don't get a refund for the seats I already paid for nor does it transfer over WHEN THEY FUCK UP.  This has happened the last 3 flights in a row.
Last flight they over booked us, lost ~$300 on seat upgrades for all connecting flights, and ended up on a wait list FOR TICKETS WE PAID FOR.  To top it all off, they threatened us with some bogus federal law when we said we were just going to get a rental car at the next stop to drive home and skip the wait list.
Flying in the US has gone down hill quickly in the past few years. >

If you don't fly in your paid upgraded seat because of reasons outside your control, you're entitled to the extra fee back (at least per their policies on American, Delta, and United). I'd start contacting some airlines to get some of your money back if this was recent history! >

I recently learned you can’t just skip the last connection flight on your itinerary or they cancel all remaining tickets. I had a buddy get stuck in Washington and was headed to Alaska to meet him. I couldn’t just not get on the plane from Seatac to Alaska or they were going to cancel my entire return trip back home. I still have no idea why they care if I pay for a flight and don’t use it. >

Exactly!!! We didn't even have any more return flights, it was the final leg of our trip and  a 13 hour lay over when we were a 2 hour drive from home. They threatened to black list us from the airline if we got a rental car. I had to argue with two different people for  them to just cancel the final leg and give us our bags. We were number 9 on a wait list of 30+ so I don't even know why it was such a hassle, they literally didn't even have a seat to put us on at that point. >

I've done that before, although I didn't check any bags. I just walked right on out of the airport to the rental car counter, no muss, no fuss. >

To me this just seems like an opportunity for less scrupulous senators to arrange some ‘campaign contributions’ from the airlines. >

The airlines should never been bailed out or deregulated >

As someone that used to work in IT for an airline, overbooking is like a science. Statistical models up in that motherfucker to figure out exactly how many seats to overbook on each flight. >

How was working IT for an airline? Chaotic? >

Ancient systems and the processes needing to be followed to make any changes or even build new systems were designed to make sure neither could happen >

That's what I figured. I'm about a year into working in the IT field and I'm finding myself constantly stressed. Hopefully with experience I'll get better at handling it. >

Put in your hours, then go home. Don't think about work when you're not working. Don't worry, this to shall pass.
For the first 10 years, you'll need to job hop every 1-3 years. Companies don't give good raises and you're more valuable each year for the start of your career. Don't have loyalty for your employer, they don't have to you. 
You'll fuck something up, don't keep fucking up in the same way. Find newer more creative ways of fucking up. >

Thanks for the advice. It's hard not to ditch my current employer, as they have done a lot for me. But the pay is just unacceptable at this point, for the amount of work. Think I'll start looking elsewhere! >

It seems to make sense that Airlines would adopt policy of something like selling a class of "bump tickets" at a significant discount with the understanding they could be bumped to another flight, ideally within a specified number of hours. 
Overselling seems offensive to me as a customer. But if I bought a ticket 30% off with that understanding, I would not have any problem getting a ticket that would put me on a place within a given time range. >

Generally airlines ask if people would like to take a later flight for some cash before they bump people which is effectively the same thing and arguably better. >

Yup... it's not like they really ever boot people like this thread is pretending. 
They offer money and someone always takes it...
And the airlines I fly on offer more expensive tickets if you want your seat 100% guaranteed instead of 99%. >

I thought this was already a thing. >

it is. nobody complaining about this has ever been involuntarily bumped from their flight. it is exceedingly rare because there are almost always volunteers to take the next flight for significantly less than the involuntary bump compensation; all they have to do is offer travel vouchers at the gate. >

Yeah, in my 40 years of flying I've been on overbooked flights plenty of times, but I've only once really seen anybody get involuntarily bumped, not including the time they stole our plane for a different flight whose plane was broken but had more passengers, so everybody got bumped.  The only time I remember anybody getting actually bumped on a flight I was on was in the Caribbean. It was a shit show of bad management because the phone lines were down to the airline in the US and none of the junior gate crew knew what the hell they were doing.  They bumped people already sitting in seats for people still at the gate.  It made no sense, and lead to fights breaking out.  They were afraid to close the flight so they just delayed and delayed.  Finally after over an hour of indecision and ugliness the pilot left the plane, walked back to the terminal, and told them, "I don't give a shit if you close the flight or not, I'm taking the people who are currently sitting on my airplane and leaving." >

Republicans will be against it since they hate doing shit that help out their voters.... >

They're fine helping out their voters, what they have a problem with are policies that benefit the other side too. They don't stand for anything that helps everyone regardless of affiliation. >

helping everyone is socialism >

It seems insane to me that airlines can legally sell more tickets than there are seats on the plane. 
How is that not fraud? >

It isn't "not fraud". It's fucking fraud. What I don't understand is why this fraud hasnt been legally challenged to the point where airlines change their behavior. >

Because it's not actually fraud, at least in a legal sense rather than a colloquial sense. When you purchase a ticket, you enter into a contract with the airline that lays out the terms of the purchase, and that usually includes a provision for if the flight is overbooked. >

That’s not how contracts work. A contract can’t give permission to commit a crime. “If you sign this contract we can fraudulently sell you a ticket for a seat that’s already sold,” isn’t legally binding. >

But it’s not a crime because the contract makes clear the risk of non-performance and the compensation to the customer in that case. 
And there’s always a risk of non-performance anyway. Vastly more passengers miss their original itinerary due to weather or mechanical problems than involuntary denial from overbooking. It’s actually wild how much focus there is on something that do rarely happens. 
Have you, personally, ever been bumped from a flight due to overbooking?  Do you know anybody personally who has?
Edit: I actually do know several who have, for what it’s worth, but it was a very unusual situation that I’ll describe later when I have time. If you’re interested. >

So I was prepping for a military deployment with a reserve unit.  Like 5,000 of us were training up at one location on the other side of the country from home, and then over a relatively short period we were all given a chance to fly home for a week pre-mobilization.  Out of a small-town airport.
Overbooking depends on people not showing up.  But like 99% of the tickets on those flights out of that airport were booked by soldiers going home for a week before deploying to a combat zone.  What percent do you think didn't show up for their flights?  Yeah.  So within a day, there was a line of "standby" guys around the airport trying to bump each other off flights, because every single flight was overbooked.  It was nonsense.  So yeah, in that case a whole lot of people got involuntarily bumped.
The unit solved it after a couple days, just ran a bus back and forth from that small town (where the base was) to the nearest major airport (where everybody was flying to for their connection anyway).  Still, good example of how applying policies that make sense in general across the population at large can fall apart entirely when applied to very specific groups where the factors being assumed do not apply.
That is the one and only time I've ever seen anybody involuntarily bumped for overbooking.  And I have flown a lot.
EDIT: Thinking back, I'm now wondering why the government took on the expense of "fixing" that problem for the soldiers instead of the airline; it's not like an airline can't charter buses.  I don't think most of the guys bumped even got compensated for the unused short-hop flight to the major hub...I'm pretty sure I didn't.  Just never thought to go back and argue for it. >

I don’t know the answer so forgive my ignorance but why can’t they pass legislation that prevents overselling flights? >

Republicans [politicians] would never go for it >

Please......I just want free healthcare