In their continuing non-scientific exploration of life, writers Bibi Lynch and Alice Wright turn their thoughts to motherhood and discuss how society judges us for either having the little blighters, or worse – not having them at all.
B: So apparently a big issue between us women is whether to have kids or not.
A: I chose to have one (and only the one – have you read my birth story?) just because I knew myself well enough to think I'd probably regret not doing it when older – and not because I particularly wanted one, if that makes sense?
I mean, who would honestly put themselves through it willingly if they knew how hard it was ?
B: You see, I fear me and you are going to arm-wrestle over this one, because the 'how hard it is' line makes me prickle. I'd say it's way harder not having children.
A: Everyone knows about the agony of birth, the sleepless nights, the endless responsibility, the admin, the school run, the blah, blah, blah of having kids. So tell me how hard is to not have them?
B: God, so much to say on this. I think if you wanted children and didn't have them, that is the toughest call.
There's not just the feeling of loss and 'I'll never be truly happy' (I hope that's not the case – but that's what's perpetuated by Beyonce etc with her 'I never knew myself before I had my baby' line) – but the incredible grief and that awful realisation that, as a non-parent in society, you mean f*** all.
It's truly devastating. I feel I have to 'stake my claim' every day.
A: I hate hearing that because I am sure there are more women feeling like that than men.
B: I think you might be right – in that men are not judged nearly as much if they don't have children. But I think men are rarely included in the conversation about not having kids and the grief it brings.
A: This is all very sad. Of course I massively support any women's right not to want children. But I feel dreadfully sad for any that want them but haven't – especially if they feel society is not backing them up because they 'lack'.
There is so much pressure to 'fulfil your potential', or whatever, and having a kid as a women is kind of held up as 'the ultimate achievement'.
B: Now more than ever. It's very odd. And that's what I mean: if you haven't had a child you mean nothing.
Sure, you cured cancer, but have you breastfed?
Now, being a mother means you're a saint. You're not. Giving birth means nothing more than you gave birth. You didn't suddenly become more compassionate, wiser, kinder, or a chuffing deity.
'As a mother'… 'Hard-working families'… etc. All divisive bulls***.
A: Absolutely, we need to laud other achievements as much.
B: But here is where you can help. I don't want to think my life – no matter what I achieve – is 'less'. Here you can dispel the myth.
Because that's the ultimate 'grass is greener', isn't it? That motherhood is everything. And so non-mothers feel they are nothing and distraught. And mothers feel full-on f***ing pressure.
So, Alice, has motherhood fulfilled you? Is it the only love that matters? Or can we find happiness/fulfilment/other in other, more personal to us, places?
A: Well I felt very happy and fulfilled when I was working at my own successful, award-winning company before the age of 30.
B: See? I love that.
A: And I also felt very happy at having a healthy kid who I fell in love with (not straight away though – that's a myth).
Both are fine achievements in my life but I'm not sure I am fulfilled yet. There is still so much I want to do – becoming a mother isn't the full stop on achieving anything else.
Maybe you are asking the wrong person because nothing makes me happy. Ha ha. But being a mother stops you doing so much too. It depends on what your goals are for your life, who you are etc?
B: But I don't think we're allowed to explore who we are/our goals without judgement. Even internal judgement – fueled by external attitudes – stops us thinking we could be happy with x when we haven't got y.
A: So is the question not whether being a mother fulfils us, but how society judges us for our decisions about motherhood?
B: I think it's both. societal attitudes on this – and I honestly think this is one of the few remaining 'allowed' bigotries – are so insidious.
I had a moment on Twitter with a man who declared the awful tragedy of the policeman being killed at Westminster Bridge worse because he was a parent. So my life – as a non-mum – is worth less than yours?
A: People do think of the impact on kids first. But yes, that reporting of whether someone is a parent or not is a little odd because of course all lives matter.
B: But he could've been a s*** parent? An abusive one? The 'parent' is always assumed to be positive. It's a crass point to make, but Rose West etc.
A: Of course, being a parent doesn't automatically make you a good person. But being judgmental, or this expectancy of women, doesn't just stop when you become a mother. Oh no.
As soon as I gave birth, I got the questions about 'number two' and the side eye at my selfishness for not considering a sibling for my precious.
And then there's the constant advice and prejudice about breastfeeding, drinking booze etc. Once you're a mother, you are no longer a person but a host then caregiver.
B: Imagine what the eyes would be doing if you'd had no kids. Right, so we're both lesser? How marvellous.
A: Gender debates make me woozy sometimes.
I was in a car recently with two friends. They were talking about how hard it is being parents.
Two points: parents don't have the monopoly on mental health issues (as far as I know) – and perhaps parenthood isn't so fantastic.
A: There is a lot in that. I mean, how can you complain about your lot or ask for help when you either went through hell to get there or it's something everyone aspires to and you should feel lucky?
B: Why not be honest? Take the pressure off all of us.
A: And therein lies the rub: we need to be honest about being a mother and not being a mother and absolutely support each others decisions and struggles.
B: I do think some of my grief (apart from no child to love, no lineage, no place in society) is coloured by 'I should've done this'.
A: Funnily enough that was my reason to do it – because I knew it was something I had to do. I had no massive maternal urge but would hate to get to 60 and think, 'What if?'.
B: If I was allowed to honestly know what it was like, then maybe I wouldn't be missing what I would be happy to miss.
B: Heh. Apparently that is against the law, yes.
A: It's not all terrible BTW, but mostly yes it is.
Still, it's very sad that, because motherhood is considered the main goal for women, we spend so many years chasing it when it might not be the be all and end all for us. We need to redefine what are considered 'goals' for women so we have more options.
B: And is it OK that it isn't for us? That's what we should be allowed to accept. Imagine the freedom that would give women like me.
A: It really would. I would go further, create a 'person factory' like in The Matrix and set everyone free from parenthood.
A: I am a freak, my kid has ruined my nether regions.
B: No talk if Alice Jnr! Jesus, woman. Look, I think we just have to let women – all women – know that there is good and bad in parenthood. And you can find equal joy elsewhere.
A: There is joy in being a mother and joy in not – please believe me I have been both.
B: I love you for that.
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