I did notice that the very brief Fire Breathing instruction sheet did skip the year or so of training that should go into preparing to Aspirate. Perhaps a link to Mephistos old site would point them in the direction that may help. I love the safety sheet popping first,the ARDS notice and Peles interview, I think that these are good tools to help educate people. I like that you state that a seasoned professional is the only real way to learn these dangerous arts.
I enjoy spinning Poi, staff, manipulation, eating and aspirating fire ( and for the really dangerous stuff I like to Morris Dance). I did not realize that the people involved in any of these arts had anything against any other art. I always hope that the people of this world work together in any way possible to make our lives with each other safe, sane and er.. super.
Posted: 10th Jun 2008 "I have never seen or heard of a fire-eating injury that caused more than cosmetic damage or superficial burns"
I know several older fire eaters (40+). All of them are missing many (if not all) of their teeth, one has had parts of his throat and jaw removed, they all have breathing issues and talk with a deep grimey voice (except for the guy missing his throat who can barely talk at all). I do not personally know of anyone who has died as a result of eating fire... But Im sure it has happened. Fact is, I don't know of anyone who has died from Fire Breathing either.
To each his own I suppose... But I still believe Fire Eating is more hazardous.
I was suppossed to make sense when I ramble! Gha! That is over taxing my smaller brain.
I was responding to an ealier post from MikeIcon with reference to Ultra pure lamp aka 99% parafin. with just a note to say " hey this stuff is pretty nasty, probably nastier than it seems"
then i say "in regards to Fire Breathing this site does a pretty good job pointing out safety stuff, and maybe we could add a link to Mephistos old sight as well"
then I say " We are all friends? right? "
It does look like there is alot of respect and friendship shared here, despite there being differing opinions on this subject.
First off, I generally breathe fire with Ultra Pure Lamp Oil and eat fire with White Gas.
To start, white gas is overall more dangerous than lamp oil. It is more explosive, burns hotter, is more toxic, and easily transfers flames onto clothes or other objects.
Lamp Oil isn't too toxic unless injested in quantity and/or introduced into the lungs. Lamp Oil does not cause cancer in it's unburned form. White gas IS toxic in smaller quantities and can cause cancer in unburnt form.
Putting FIRE in your mouth is just far worse for you than putting oil in your mouth. Fire will cause your gums to recede, teeth to cook/crack/crumble, and may cause oral/facial burns if done incorrectly. Whenever you put a burning torch into your mouth, you are coating your mouth with burnt hydrocarbons which increases the risk of cancer in your mouth and all along your digestive system. Also, you run the risk of inhaling straight flames. Lamp oil isn't great for your mouth/system but overall is less caustic. Contrary to popular belief, Breathing Fire with lamp oil will never cause a 'blowback' in which fire enters your mouth and makes your face explode. You do run the risk of facial (and full body) burns when Breathing Fire as fuel does tend to soak into clothes and skin over time.
Posted: 15th Jun 2008 Yeah, it's all that we need to learn how to separate facts and opinions.
Well, that is an opinion, not a fact.
Putting FIRE in your mouth is just far worse for you than putting oil in your mouth.
Maybe I got it all wrong but so far I thought that you're not supposed to "put fire in your mouth"... I thought you were to extinguish the flame with your exhale.
"I have never seen or heard of a fire-eating injury that caused more than cosmetic damage or superficial burns"
Fire-eating is far, far safer in terms of 1- lots of fire-breathers ended up in hospital for accidents with blow-backs etc, very few fire-eaters.
Where 2 is concernend- mainly a problem for those doing it frequently/regularly,over many years.
Such as performers in carnies/sideshows etc.
Which happen to be, where fire-eating is concerned, the people who get damaged.
When it comes to people having parts of their jaw removed, it's imortant to ask whether there's reason to believe that this was necessarilycaused by the fire-eating.
Other factors could include- did they smoke? (most carny/side-show old timers who did these acts tended to also be heavy smokers)- that can easily lead to oral cancers.
For the users of this board though, the few who read the FAQs/threads and still want to try out oral-fire-arts, will dabble, perform them infrequently and, then, tend to lose interest (they are, for most, fairly boring/unfullfilling, once the initial shine has worn off)- only a very few will end up doing this as a job with regular and long-term use.
In those cases, I would say that, if anyone's dead set on oral-fire, that fire-eating, is a much safer bet than fire-breathing.
The long-term damage issues for fire-eating will tend to only be a factor if you're doing it regularly, over many years.
These carny/side-show people would be doing this 7 days a week, probably with shows every hour, during the season- of course they're going to get problems after doing that for 30/40 years.
That doesn't translate to the experience of the average HOP-er.
OK, in the interests of developing the discussion and giving some meat to your case (that eating is more dangerous than breathing), how about fleshing that out with some details about those accidents?
I guess you can make Fire Eating as dangerous as you like.
Posted: 16th Jun 2008 Has anyone written a short and to the point ARDS fact sheet for people too carry in their safeties first aid kit. Maybe laminate and put it with your MSDS info. If there is one please link it, if not, would someone be so kind. I would guess that it may need to be different dependent on your region.
Hello my name is ****** and I just sucked fuel x into my lungs. please put me on Intubation with ...etc.
Maybe we could even put a few cards up for different common accidents that we have.
Are there other common injuries that people are having that a data sheet would help with?
I would think that it would be smart to have at least common burn treatment info that you can point at if you cannot speak at the time. Always asume that you have a functional safety person on hand, but what if they get hurt as well?
Posted: 17th Jun 2008 "how about fleshing that out with some details about those accidents?"
Ok, Ive been eating fire and Breathing Fire both for about 4 years. From what I have seen in my travels and internet browsing, I am one of the best fire breathers in the US and comparable to just about any fire eater I've come across.
Fire breathing - Only once have I inhaled fuel... It was a very mild case of pneumonia where for the next 2 or 3 days, I felt a slight sharp pain in my chest up by my collar bone when taking a deep breath. I have also lit my face on fire about 3 times which resulted in small 1st or 2nd degree burns no bigger than the size of a dime. I have swallowed fuel (no more than a mouthful) a couple times and got no effects. The 1 time I used Kero, it gave me diarrhea.
Fire Eating - My teeth are in bad shape to begin with, however, since starting eating fire, they have gotten substantially worse. Pretty much every time I do an eating routine, I get burns in my mouth, on my lips, and on my arms, hands, and sometimes back. I generally keep a small container of white gas on stage with me while doing my routine and on multiple occasions, I got somewhat confused and dipped the lit torch into my fuel instead of the unlit one causing the fuel can to catch... This could have easily lead to a more serious accident. I have also had accidents where I transfer fire to my clothes (pants/shirt) and couldn't put it out fast enough, resulting in some pretty nasty burns on my chest and legs.
I guess you can say the severity of my accidents are about the same in both cases, however, the Fire Eating burns and accidents happen much more frequently. I also just see more potential for more to go wrong with my Fire Eating routine. The most dangerous part of Fire Breathing IMO is the inhalation of fuel... However, since learning more about how that happens, I have become more apt to avoiding it.
Also, I want to add that there have been scientific tests done on Ultra Pure which proves it to be quite harmless to your body. In fact, it is considered 'food grade paraffin' which is already found in much of the food we eat.
That said - NONE of this is good for you. It will all have negative effects on your health to some degree. I DO NOT recommend anyone taking this up unless you have a very good and experienced teacher AND you plan to do it professionally. This is not something for amateurs!
Pretty much every time I do an eating routine, I get burns in my mouth, on my lips, and on my arms, hands, and sometimes back.
um... Since you've been doing this for four years, I'm guessing your fire-eating routine isn't just sticking it in your mouth and extinguishing... though this record.. EVERY TIME???
IMHO.. you should know the amount of time it's ok to have the flame in your mouth.
When I first started off, I sometimes got burnt lips or tongue.. but very very little, not notice the next day.
So I've had my share of accidents, but I don't think I can see how you burn yourself everytime without knowing more about your routine... The burns on your arms would be from tracing.. and on your back from what??
Maybe you could find a fuel with a higher flashpoint/autoignition temperature (I always forget which is which...)?
I have also had accidents where I transfer fire to my clothes (pants/shirt) and couldn't put it out fast enough, resulting in some pretty nasty burns on my chest and legs.
Posted: 17th Jun 2008 I generally put contact and traces in with Fire Eating since most people who eat fire do these things in their routine.
Yes, I know my limits but often the people paying me don't and they push me to go beyond what is comfortable. Sure, I can do my 5 minute eating/contact routine and not be burned... However, when they want me to do 4 15 minute sets within 4 hours, I end up repeating stuff over and over to the point that I get burned.
And even still, you say not to push your limits... However, that is what makes you stand out as a performer. Obviously I know it's risky to hold a torch in my teeth for 10 seconds while I unbutton and remove my shirt, however, that's what makes people want to hire me.
And, some may say "well, obviously its just because you take more risks with fire eating" But this is not the case. I take huge risks with breathing as well. I am always pushing for longer sustains, Im always working new ways to move around and dance while breathing, I breathe downwards, I jump, I pass with other people... I still get more injuries from eating.
End statement - It is my OPINION that Fire Eating is more hazardous. Take that for what it's worth.
Your priorities in your act are obviously what you've decided are acceptable and, maybe even necessary.
As I mentioned before, what is relevant to you, is not necessarily relevant to the average HOP-er.
Firstly,concerning fire-tracing: it is important, I feel, whilst acknowledging that this may be a common accompniment to fire-eating, it is NOT, fire-eating.
So, any injuries incurred while fire-tracing, are not fire-eating injuries.
(Plus of course, fire-tracing is as likely to be added to a fire-breathing act, as a fire-eating one).
You mention the pressure put on you by potential employers to 'push' yourself- to basically up the risk to make the spectacle bigger.
Fair enough, you choose to comply, but, it would generally be recommended to HOP-ers, to NEVER, EVER, allow an employer to push you to go beyond your limits or beyond waht you are comfortable with.
Pele's article stresses that her accident happened on a day when an inner voice/instinct was telling her not to do it.
For any fire act, the general advice to HOP-ers is to include only that which you are absolutely rock-solid on.
If employers don't like that, then they either have to accept it, or hire someone else.
They do what they do, we are the fire professionals- we tell them what is possible, what is acceptable and, what is/is not going to happen in our acts.
Obviously I know it's risky to hold a torch in my teeth for 10 seconds while I unbutton and remove my shirt, however, that's what makes people want to hire me.
Have you considered putting together a shirt with hidden velcro fastening, plus a few loosely attached buttons.
Then, whilst holding the torch in your mouth, your, spectacularly rip your shirt open, with buttons flying off?
As well as looking dramatic, it cuts down the holding time of the torch in your teeth.
That's the kind of thing I'd be thinking about if I felt that part of my act was leading to damage due to the torch being in my mouth too long.
Posted: 18th Jun 2008 I just want to say thanks to OWD for saying what I was thinking, but better.
If the hydrocarbons of Fire Eating were such a huge issue, I would think these men would have far more instances of cancer to the mouth, throat, etc. But they do not. Not a single one of them.
More than a few have had/have ulcers and liver cancer.
I realise the conversation has moved on since I first replied, but this quote gives the wrong impression and being a toxicologist I'd rather have people know about hydrocarbons than saying "oh, nothing's happening in my mouth so it must be fine".
In the case of Fire Breathing you get the "original" liquid you're using with all its nice additives, which is bad enough.
In the case of Fire Eating, you get the combustion products straight into your mouth, too. That would contain a higher percentage of polycyclic hydrocarbons, which are <b>highly</b> toxic. They do cause liver cancer, because that is where they are oxidised by liver enzymes and get turned into highly reactive substances, so just because the cancer does not occur at the site of first exposure doesn't mean it's not caused by that exposure.
Posted: 20th Jun 2008 Birgit, I never said nothing was happening. I'm on a message group that has about 60 of the top, most highly regarded, most phenominal fire eating/breathing professionals in the US, many of whom who have been in the industry for decades. My info is from them and their personal experiences.
I *know* stuff happens from Fire Eating, which is part of why I mentioned the liver cancer that some of these pros have been through, and one of them died from a couple years ago.
Everything we do is dangerous. From inhalation of smoke while spinning to anything to do with the oral fire arts.
I think that attempting to quantify which one is the worst and why is really nit-picking really.
None of it is healthy or safe and that is the first thing any person getting into fire should understand I think.
Seems to make sense, i'd be very interested in hearing more or looking at some relevant links.
I just want to say thanks to OWD for saying what I was thinking, but better.
Birgit, I never said nothing was happening. I'm on a message group that has about 60 of the top, most highly regarded, most phenominal fire eating/breathing professionals in the US, many of whom who have been in the industry for decades. My info is from them and their personal experiences.
Is the above mentioned 'combustion products' issue known and discussed on that message group?
Any conclusions (or links to relevant research)?
Posted: 21st Jun 2008 Pele, I think if someone like you with a reputation of knowing more than most about firearts and dangers says something like "if xyz were such a big issue..." some people who look to you for advice may switch off after the "no cancer in mouth and throat". It sounded to me much more harmless than it is.
Posted: 21st Jun 2008 Thanks for your input Birgit. This helps me tons. Good info!
I'm not sure what you mean by conclusions. Conclusions to what?
This is a group of people who long ago reconciled themselves with the dangers involved in what we do. Some of these guys started their fire eating/breathing careers long before unleaded gas was common (and so yes, they used leaded and now admit it's baaaaaaad).
Often any discussion of such things ends in a tale being spun or an off-handed comment, not in research and convo like here. As such, the only conclusions they tend to come to are "Yup, we took these risks knowingly." and "This is the price I pay for the choices I made." (as in Mephisto's dental drama...he just lost another tooth this past week, btw).
Posted: 2nd Nov 2008 What if you use a boozahol, like Bicardi 151, as the flame? Does that count with ARDS?
Posted: 14th Nov 2008 Yes, and page 2 or 3 recounts someone who was laying dieing from Fire Breathing gone bad with boozahol on his 21st.
And Mike, if you read this, what ever happened to that guy?
Posted: 4th Jan 2009 Originally Posted By: MillenniuMThank you. You just convinced me not to learn how to firebreathe. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif" alt="" /> Is the danger still there for fire eating?
No, the danger lies within the fumes the gas gives off. A gas burning is actually only the fumes rising off of the gas burning, therefor it all combusts before entering your lungs.
Posted: 29th Jan 2009 Scary stuff, thanks very much for the info.
Posted: 29th Jan 2009 Originally Posted By: doppelGangerOriginally Posted By: MillenniuMThank you. You just convinced me not to learn how to firebreathe. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beerchug.gif" alt="" /> Is the danger still there for fire eating?
There are other dangers there. PLEASE READ THIS!
Posted: 3rd Oct 2009 Thank you all (Pele et al) It's definitely given me new things to think about as I continue learning the arts of fire performing.
Also, Pele, thanks for letting me know what suctioning is like. I'm a stroke nurse... as such I suction people a whole bunch. Good to have a better understanding.
Its funny you know... some times one is passing the tree in front of his house a million times, without ever noticing. Then only - a million and one times later - one realizes that it's a pine tree.
Posted: 21st Oct 2009 Tom, it's not the act itself I enjoy. In fact, I hate the act of spinning/eating/breathing fire. That adrenaline rush that came when I first did it (and there was one..OH YES was it a fun rush!) faded and now, it is far more of a dirty chore than it is a rush.
BUT I *adore* the audience reaction. I'm a performer, not a spinner. It is simply one more tool in my arsenal to entertain. I have many, many of these tools. Fire gets reactions.
Fire gets tips in my basket and people coming out of the woodwork to fill the seats of my stage.
It's the only reason anyone I know does it. However, I'm associated with more professionals than hobbyists, so I can only answer from that perspective.
Rest assured, I do many other dangerous acts that have nothing to do with fire to balance it out, so it's not as common to find me lit up anymore. But when I do, you now know the reason.
BTW, imho LED's are far prettier to watch than fire ever was/is. I also hear that from the audience, but it's the danger the audience likes because people are sadistic.
Posted: 21st Oct 2009 Originally Posted By: N1ghtshad3Thank you all (Pele et al) It's definitely given me new things to think about as I continue learning the arts of fire performing.
My pleasure, though I feel for your patients. Feel free to ask anything. I'm happy to help.