Ep. #57 Making Good Choices with Galen Hooks
My guest on this episode is one of the reasons I am hopeful for the future of dance… and for the world! She is bright, wise, beautiful, and a master of her craft from a young age. Today, we are joined by Galen Hooks! We dig into The Galen Hooks Method and making "good choices" on the job, activism and the responsibility of artists, and the value of following your gut. So, get your notepad ready because this is exactly the kind of heavy lifting that can leave you feeling lighter and brighter!
Dancer's Alliance: https://www.dancersalliance.org/
VMA Nominated Choreography Camilla Cabello Havana: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQ0mxQXmLsk
Galen's River https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pHYxx9dY_U
Galen's Love on the Brain: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MsXwbZvE58
GHM (Galen Hooks Method): https://www.galenhooks.com/train
Intro: Welcome to words that move me, the podcast where movers and shakers, like you get the information and inspiration you need to navigate your creative career with clarity and confidence. I am your host, Dana Wilson. And I move people. I dance, I choreograph, I coach. And the only thing that I love more than life is sharing. So if you are someone who loves to work and laugh and you're looking to rewrite the starving artists story, then you're in the right place.
Hello, my friend, and welcome to the podcast. I am so glad that you're here. How are you doing today? Today, I am doing I'm feeling hopeful. I'm feeling hopeful because I think change is good. I took a walk and I took notes on the interview from this episode under a clear blue sky from the bleachers of an empty baseball field field. Is that the right word? Diamond, baseball diamond, baseball court, baseball stage. Um, anyways, that setting was indeed quite a change for my standing desk at home. I do think change is good. Um, also I might as well mention that I'm recording this on an inauguration day. It is the first time I've actually watched an inauguration top to bottom, and I'm so glad that I did, um, for many reasons, but namely, because I got to witness and be tremendously moved by the words and the movement I might add of Amanda Gorman. Wow. Listening to her and watching her calm, steady, and graceful hands. As she spoke, turned me into a puddle on the floor, but not like a boggery wet ooey gooey puddle, but like a titanium indestructible puddle on the floor. So strong and yet. So full of tears is, is how I felt. This episode will air one week from today. And I will probably still be in complete awe of Amanda, um, especially her in that very moment. I simply think she's outstanding yet, I think there are more like her and that is why I'm hopeful. Speaking of more like her, bright, wise, beautiful and a master of their craft from a very early age today, we're joined by Galen Hooks. Galen is a friend and a leader, and I am so excited to be sharing this conversation with you today because wow, if this podcast really is about navigating your creative career, then consider this episode a compass. Please enjoy this conversation with the fabulous Galen Hooks.
Dana: Galen hooks my friend. Welcome to the podcast.
Galen: Hi Dana.
Thank you so much for being here. I'm simply thrilled about this and oddly embarrassed that as friends, this will probably be our longest session of talking uninterrupted in years.
Galen: We have not talked in a very, very long time and so this will be a great catch-up
I'm so I'm so excited about it. Um, okay, so this is how we always begin with guests on the podcast. I would like to ask that you introduce yourself. I know that this can be a daunting task, but, um, let us know anything that you would like us to know about you.
Um, so I'll just kind of introduce myself in a way that for anyone listening helps you understand some context for whatever I do talk about. My name is Galen Hooks. Um, I am a VMA nominated choreographer. I started working in the industry when I was seven and I have known nothing, but the entertainment industry I've worked with over 70 artists, if you're kind of old school, you might know me from the Neo videos or Janet, or even LXD. But because this is the age of social media, some of you might have learned about me through some viral videos like river or love on the brain, et cetera. Um, and now in addition to doing industry work, I have the Galen hooks Method, which I might even have some alum who are listening to this, but, um, I do the Galen Hooks Method, which is made up of several kinds of experiences from 2 Day Really intimate intensives to regular length masterclasses, lectures, live events. Um, it's global, it's open to everyone and I am glad to be here. Dana, thank you for having me.
Ah, it is my absolute pleasure. Um, so yes, 70 plus artists, Holy smokes, really to list your dance and your choreography credits would require a double episode, probably a back-to-back. Um, and so I'm not going to get into that and I know that we'll talk about dance eventually, but I, I want to start by talking about your work as an activist and how that has transferred into the Galen Hooks Method. Um, so could you maybe start by talking about those 10 plus years that you Chaired Dancer's Alliance? Yeah, so I do
What I didn't mention in my beginning spiel is I for 10 years, I was, um, both working with Dancers Alliance and serving on the board at SAG AFTRA us. It was like, that was at sag before sag one sag, AFTRA, and, um, worked with AFTRA at the time closely and was a liaison for the agents and just did tons and tons of activism. And during that time, um, Dana, as you know, because you were heavily involved, we spearheaded unionizing music videos, and Dana was instrumental in helping us unionize, what I think was the only tour.
Unfortunately I think you might be, you might be right.
The biggest, like win and lose at the same time. Yeah. So, yeah. Um, so I spent a very long period of time being an activist in the community and helping with helping make, I guess when I say activist, I think now how do I explain this? We made really, um, tangible changes in contracts and unionizing, and that was always my really driving force was making actionable change. Um, so of course now the Baton has been passed as it should be two dancers who are now currently working. Obviously I don't work as a dancer anymore. Um, so when I do the intensives, um, I have Industry sessions for the Galen hooks method and Non-industry sessions. And so the industry sessions are for professional dancers and there's another session for aspiring choreographers. And in both of those instances, it's just important to, uh, make sure and practice people know how to apply concepts like what's happening in your contracts or how to deal with your agent or what to do If you get in a sticky situation, basically in the, in the sessions, I'm able to communicate the things that we would typically do in our DA meetings. And then for the choreography session, it's really kind of bananas how even like our colleagues now and people who are my elders as choreographers still don't know answers to a lot of questions because there isn't much codified language for choreographers. So we'll go through everything from what your rate should fricking be, which like I get calls all the time from my friends asking.
Oh I'm so sure you do
Like when I think about it, a lot of, I consult a lot of people on their negotiations, like on what to ask their agents for and what to ask their manager managers for not to say that that's a form of activism, but it's like a daily kind of dealing with negotiations and rates is still a huge part of my life, even though I'm not working with an organization, but in the GHM creative session, we go through the basics like what your rates should be to more, um, uh, applicable questions. Like if you are hired as an assistant, and you're asked to contribute creatively, what should you do to do you get paid to run an audition? What, like all kinds of things that even now working choreographers don't necessarily know the answers to. Um, so that's kind of like on the dance end, but then really I, we, the dance industry has, I don't know, fractions the right word, but it's split off into even more kind of bubbles than I think had existed when we were doing DA. And so my, I know that I have an immediate community of people who I can activate as people and citizens as well, I guess. So certainly like an element of just human activation has come into play and definitely in the past year. So, uh, you know, we got people to register to vote and to phone bank for Biden and write letters to the George Floyd family and, um, you know, raise money for the actors fund or feeding America. So there's kind of like this, the sense of activism has expanded beyond dance, which is wonderfully fulfilling for me. And just nice for dancers to be able to come together in a non dance sense as well
On like on a human plane.
Yeah. I love this, but we'll have to adjust your bio slightly to include the title of unofficial consultant to all on all things. Um, well, okay, so let's flash back a little bit. You mentioned the music video negotiations and the touring negotiations. That was certainly when we logged our most time together. Yes. Um, and I became aware of how much work is done behind the scenes and in other organizations that, um, dancers Alliance is a Non-Union organization. And by the way, if you are not familiar at first listen with Dancers Alliance, I will absolutely be linking to the DA website in the show notes. That should be your next stop after you listened to this episode. Um, but from my experience with, with organizing, I learned, I think if I had to boil down a takeaway that education and outreach must be almost constant in order to make a lasting impact. Um, and I think that that's what you're doing with the Galen Hooks Method is pretty much around the calendar doing that education and outreach. Um, w what, what else did you take away from that time? Any like big life-changing lessons learned from doing all that work in organizing
The —, when you try to articulate the amount of work it takes to organize. And I think now people, one fortunate thing is that people are getting a tiny taste of what it is to organize in just going to protests. And I think like the stamina that it takes to consistently care about something is so underestimated by people who get riled up and want to make a change. And I want to kind of like put for anyone who's listening. I wanna just put this in the context of if you're listening and you feel like you recognize injustices, whether it's you think your rate should go up or whether it's racial injustice, um, and you have an inkling of what, you know, needs to happen to fix that injustice. You're gonna hit multiple steps around the way where you just get so freaking worn out. And when I say I did it for 10 years, most people burn out after like a month. Like, you know, this Dana is like, you get really excited and jazzed about, I want to change. I want to, I want the rates to go up, whatever it is. And then you book a job and then all that goes out the window. So for me, like I, a lot of the time I spent, which by the way, just in case this isn't clear that people working for Dancers Alliance, it's like 100% volunteer work. You don't get paid. It is absolutely on your own time. So whether it was when Dana and I were working with DA or the people that, you know, currently are working for DA, they are doing it in the spare time that they have in their lives. So I would be in China, I'd be in Europe, I'd be at like 4:00 AM organizing PowerPoint presentations, and, um, you know, doing phone calls with SAG and it's like, you have to have, it just takes so much mental stamina. So, and I, and I think, you know, I started the intensives before kind of this huge wave of intensives that currently is taking place. And I think a lot of people, it takes a lot of stamina to do something like an intensive. And whether it's, whether it's the activism with Dancers Alliance or whether it's the Galen Hooks Method, I'm not doing it for the sake of saying I run a business and I do these intensives. And like, there wasn't, I didn't, I had no intention of the Galen Hooks Method becoming a thing, I do it because I care. So I'm able to continue doing it because I care. And that's what it takes that level of stamina, not to say that other people that do intensives don't care, but you have to have a huge amount of care and desire to make a difference to keep going after the initial excitement has worn off because 99% of the work that goes into these things is not fun. It's not sexy. It's not like cool stuff to do. So I certainly that's a long winded way of kind of reminiscing on that time of the, uh, music, video negotiations or the tour negotiations. Um, there's like, there's so much like literal tears. I remember talking to you Dana, and it was it's so emotionally fraught, and you want to quit at so many points because there are so many hurdles along the way. So the mental and emotional stamina is absolutely imperative for any cause to continue forward.
You need a strong why. You need to have a strong why, like you have to know exactly why you're doing it, and if it is money and if it is a reputation or, uh, you know, praise, uh, that won't be enough, for this type of work, it's simply won't be enough. Um, so what would you say now is your why? Like, what is your North star at the moment with the program and in your, and in your creative life?
It's jeez,we, so we are recording this like a week after the Capitol was stormed, not even a week. And, uh, uh, it's such a change, I guess, for me of my North Star, because what happens every day for us as people is we used to it's a grab bag. So I, I don't think I've ever had a, an exactly enumerated North star or mission statement or why that's kind of written out. I have a really, I really listened to my gut and know when I'm going in a direction that feels right. And I really know when I'm not so kind of, it's like every day I wake up and it's like, what, what's happening in the world today? And I follow what feels right to do with the time and energy that I have to give to make things happen. So I, I genuinely do not have a, an exactly specified North star other than like, what, how can I best use the, uh, like assets that I have to do something for people.
That is huge. And that makes total sense to me. Um, now my brain is offering me this image of not a due North, like not a North star, not a, not a one mission statement or mantra, but just a compass that works really well. I think, I think you have a strong moral compass, which is probably why most people come to you, um, for advice or consultation, help negotiating things that, or negotiating or navigating things that they haven't done yet. So that's, that makes complete sense to me. And I love it. So let me, if we could talk a little bit about the Galen Hooks Method for a second. Um, I know that you work with professional dancers, like varying degrees of experienced dancers, um, and I'm sure that some of my listeners are alum and I'm sure that a lot of my listeners would be interested in training with you. So I'm wondering what you think is the biggest difference between a lay person dancing and an aspiring pro dancing and what could they learn from each?
Hmm. Um, let me just for good measure, explain each of the sessions because it'll help with my explanation. So they're from, from like beginner to industry, the sessions are GHM light, which is for absolute beginners. Uh, you can't, you shouldn't be advanced. And that one that is for a hobbyist basically. And then there's GHM classic, which is a mixed levels one. So that one, I will have absolute hobbyists with professional dancers. And it's about artistry. GHS pro is only professional dancers. Creative is for aspiring choreographers. And then game plan is for the people that are trying to get a game plan to work in the industry. So when I'm doing, for example, GHM classic, which is the mixed levels, hobbyists and professionals in the same room, honestly, the approach is exactly the same for every single person in that room. And everyone is at a literally the same equal playing field. So my approach to teaching them is absolutely the same, whether they've never danced a day in their life or they're veterans who have done it for 20 years, if it's a pro session, I guess this is how I would answer it like the pro session or any pro master classes that I've done or audition intensives. Anytime I'm dealing with people who are trying to work and are taking their career seriously, it is like no nonsense and very high, high stakes. Um, but if I'm working with a room of only beginners, then obviously we're going way back to basics. So I guess the way I'm answering that is if I have a mixed group of people in the same room, everybody has dealt with the exact same way, but if I've got only beginners, I'm dealing with them one way and only pros is the other way. And they're both like, I think what I've loved is being able to be so high stakes with the professional dancers. I think like, you know, when we, when you work with an actor, I've had, both of us have had experience working on film, TV, commercial work, where you're working with non-dancers and that's kind of like I'm, I'm used to in my career working with absolute beginners who don't speak the language of dance. So it's less of like a switching teaching wise with those people, but what has been so awesome is being able to just crack the whip with professional dancers, because on a job it's like, um, the way that I'm training professional dancers is much different than the way that I would treat them on a job. Um, so it's really fun. I think on both of our ends, whether you're the student, or for me to have like a different way of approaching teaching professional dancers,
I think I'm just now wrapping my head around this, like training for professional work can be professional work in the like you can be treating mat training moment as the professional moment. And for many of the dancers in your program, it is. In some senses, I'm sure the thought behind, at least some people's head is this is an audition. This is a person who works all the time and I'm in front of them day after day after day. And every day I show up is if I treat it as a day on the job, I'm maybe that close that much closer to being on the job with Galen. Um, it, w w is that a mindset that you would recommend, or do you think that, or what would you recommend for people coming into your program is being the most beneficial mindset? Like how will we get the most out of it?
I'm honestly, the, the pro session is not, none of these sessions are meant for you to work with me. That happens, and I've hired many of my alum following their sessions, but that's not the goal. So the pro session, I'm trying to get you to work with everybody. Like of every dance style of every genre of choreographer. So we're, the mindset is to be adaptable, to be smart. You know, everyone talks about being a smart dancer, but you don't understand that or see it in practice until you're thrown into the lion's den. And like, it's really, you can't, if you can imagine Dana, like trying to prep for doing the traffic scene in La La Land, but you've never been on a set before. There's not really a way to prep for how to deal with all of the elements that happen unless you are thrown well, you can't learn except for, from experience.
You will not know how to do it until you have actually done it
Until you've done it. And you learn so much from doing. And so the a lot of people will ask beforehand, like, what should I prepare? How do I like come into this thing? And you've got to just come in as a blank slate, because the learning is not in prepping for the session to come in with the right mindset, you come in with a blank slate and I, or each person in the session, because they are very small capacity, 15 to 30 person sessions, every single person in that room, I'm customizing the training I'm giving to you based on where you're at. So you can just come in having just like woken up and rolled out of bed, and I'm going to adjust what's happening based to where you are. Um, so there's not, yeah, but the bigger picture of what you're saying is like, yes, you should, a thousand percent like come in being professional and, um, presenting yourself in a way that, for me, as Galen Hooks, that I go, like, I like this person and I'll recommend them. I think that's the other thing is that I'm recommending people the same way that people are hitting me up all the time, asking what to negotiate for the contracts all the time. All the time, people are hitting me up and I'm sure hitting you up. We all hit each other up going, do you know a blonde? I'm my blondes are all booked. I need a blonde. So I'm recommending people all the time. So it's, it's not just in my intensives, but any class you take going to Carnival going to Starbucks, when we're able to go places again, like you should always be aware of the hiring potential of the interactions you're having with anybody, not just me.
Uh, fabulous, fabulous advice. Um, and also I took a tiny note. Cause as you were talking about not until you've done it, I was remembering all of the hundreds of times master teachers or my own teachers have told me and all dancers, they think this is the thing we all often hear. Um, make good choices. Hey guys, just make good choices and good is so relative. And also when you're coming up, you haven't established your taste yet necessarily. So you might not know, you might not know what a good choice is or a much less how to actually make it. So giving a place for people to practice good choices or experiment, good choices or audition good choices and bad choices. I think that's so valuable.
Do, do you mean creative choices?
Yes. Let me just like, or like dance, dance choices, bad choices, body choices.
So that, that's so interesting. I'm just gonna like respond to that because I, I don't this isn't to contradict what you're saying, but
Oh, do it bring it yes.
Just to explain how it, how, uh, how I would, um, plant in somebody's head who's listening. I don't operate in thinking of choices as a dancer or artistically. So what, what I, what I think a lot of people what's holding back a lot of aspiring dancers is that you're not thinking about if we're in a rehearsal setting or not in audition setting, you're not thinking about serving the job. And so, um, if you're going to be making dance choices, you've got to be thinking of what the job is calling for. And the way that people are training right now is, uh, it's holding back the choreographer from being able to get certain jobs done, because the choices people making are making are in a bubble and in a vacuum of what they're excited about creatively as their own individual dancer, but they're not choices that make sense for what's being called for in the shot. So take what Dana's saying about making choices and being creative and having the space to fail, which I want to say in the pro intensive, that is not the place to fail. It's the, it's not like I just want to be really clear in case anyone signs up for it. It's not a, it's not the pro intensive specifically is not a nurturing environment because I'm preparing you for what it's like to actually work on the high level jobs. So I guess what I'm trying to articulate is it's incredibly important to do what Dana is suggesting of making those creative choices, but there's the people who work all the time, make those choices, knowing what the shot's supposed to be and knowing what the choreographer is asking for.
Uh huh. Um, I think there's tremendous value in that. And I think I'm learning like are a bit of the difference in uni in, in our training, on the come up. Um, you know, you spent a lot of time assisting and working with Marguerite Derricks, she runs a very tight ship. She knows exactly what she wants, but I have spent equal maybe more. I don't, I would love to see hourly side-by-side catalog, um, of time with Marty Kudelka who like packages improvisation and hires and works exclusively exclusively with people who he knows will default to a freestyle or, or a, um, an, an unplanned moment that is in alignment with the vision. So that's what I would consider a good choice is one that is an in alignment with, uh, what the job is asking for.
Right, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
And then I think if we also zoom out a little bit, and this is a fun, this is a really cool thing. Actually, I'm excited to talk about, um, I, I have developed over the course of the podcast, a community of doing daily doers, they are people who have taken on the challenge of making a creative work every single day. Several of them are in the two hundreds by now,
Oh my gosh,
More people joining every single day. And the objective almost solely the objective of that project is to claim agency over your own work is to not have to answer to anyone and simply make something every day, not necessarily because you're inspired or because you have an, uh, an inner creative voice that you want to get out. But simply because you said that you would, it's strengthening a creative muscle and putting the power back in your own hands in an industry where we so often give it away to the choreographer or to the casting director or to whoever. So, um, to give us a full, like 360 degree view of good choices, I think good choices serve the project and you, and I don't think that a dancer should ever have to sacrifice, uh, their anything for a project it's the dancers choice if they would like to be there. But so many people, especially at the end of a one year plus pandemic are thinking, Oh, man work would be real great right now I will do whatever it takes, including put my, um, creative impulses in the, uh, in the sidecar. But I think it's really interesting. I really do. I am. I default to nurturer in all of the, in my, in my teaching and in the podcast and in this project where, where people are doing daily, I find it so easy to get critical. In fact, that's probably the number two reason to do it is it really helps combat the perfectionist syndrome. If you're trying to ship a creative work every single day, certainly not all of them will be perfect. So it's a really interesting muscle to strengthen, but like if, is creativity called for on a professional job, I think it depends on what the professional job is and who it is that you're working for. So often offerings are, you know, being a person that has good ideas, um, good instincts and good offerings can be a thing that gets you the job, but equally, probably an equal amount of the time. It could be what loses you the job.
Yes. Yeah, yeah. That the wa I think that the only thing I'm distilling down is you have the context of knowing, knowing what choices serve the job and don't, and what I see sometimes now is because how do I, like if you're making those choices outside the context of being on a job, sometimes, sometimes there's a misunderstanding of what making a creative choice means. Um, so do we, so it's, it's wonderful that you're having people practice that creative muscle so that when you are, when it is asked of you, because although, although I assisted Marguerite, certainly there are times when, if you, if you work with Jamaica Craft, she's like a thousand percent asking those creative choices from you. So it's so important, like taking that ability to do daily, and then having that added layer of like, when you're asked to do that on a job, then it's, it's being creative in, in the confines of a job is creative in, uh, in and of itself. And that's like exciting that you're getting people at different juices going, because, you know, doing daily without limitation is different than doing it on a job. And it must be much more, uh, easy for people to do it in the confines of a job if they're used to doing it on their own so much.
Yes. I think you're totally spot on in, in taking on a daily creative challenge. You like you plant yourself in the pilot seat of the, of this like creative cockpit and in front of you, all the dials and knobs and levers are there. And one of them is like the sensitivity to read the room or the ability to look to the person who is, uh, who, who is leading the room and like dial up and down all of your creative knobs and levers accordingly after like, you know, checking the altitude and whatnot. Um, I'm going to go ahead and walk away from that analogy now. Cause I know nothing else about aviation. Levers. I think we've got a lever in there. Um, okay, cool. So I, I love that I'm fascinated with like the ways that we can be, um, aware of what's being asked and meet that, meet the expectation through practice, right. Through training through yes, definitely through experience, but also through just a willingness to like do it and maybe do it wrong, but do it over and over again until you get it right. Um, a question about how you devised the Galen Hooks Method. I think your experiences are so vast and so many from being on big screens, huge artists, tremendous audiences to being a producer, not just of your own works. Um, one of my favorites of all time still is Campfire Vaudeville. Um, but then you also went on to produce larger scale productions for the Voice and so on and so forth. So I guess, um, I, I guess what I'm wondering is how, Hmm, let me, what am I wondering when I, when I imagine you creating the Galen Hooks method, I see you in your bat cave hovered over a beautifully lit drafting table, like spreadsheets and flow charts and like your actual Batman in my eyes, and you've got Fox and you've got Alfred. And then like in this den of, of brilliance, um, is that how that happened or was it a trial?
That's a very romanticized version. No, not at all.
Leave, leave it to me to make a romanticize, a very, very dramatic Marvel action version of everything.
Um, like I kind of alluded to earlier, I didn't intend for it to be something. So it started as audition intensives because I was running auditions and felt just terrible for people who were getting cut for reasons. They had no idea about that are very easily fixable. And because I was a dancer for so long when I became a choreographer, almost like, are you for real? Why doesn't anyone tell us how to audition? This is criminal to me that we're like spending all of our lives training and then like our hair is not right. And that's why we're getting cut. So I started doing audition intensives, and it was just called Behind the Audition. And then I started doing heals intensives because heals became a thing. And obviously when I was dancing as a professional dancer, there weren't heals classes. You just like booked the job and they gave you heals and you danced it. But, Um, I really saw a, um, I saw the desire for people who wanted to dance in a heel, but not dance in the way that most heel classes were taught. So I was doing heel heels, intensives. And then, so the people that were doing the audition intensive were then booking jobs based off of what they did in the intensive. So then they would say, what should I do on the job? I don't know what to do in rehearsal. I don't know how to sign my contract. So then I did an onset intensive. So the Galen Hooks method, quote unquote, we came what it is because I was actually sitting with our friend, Amanda Balen and we were, I was just kinda like, it's, it's an approach to the entire industry. And because been doing this since I was a child, I have like a, a way that I philosophically approach the industry that I recognize is just my way of doing it. So it's my, I call it the Galen Hooks Method, because this is my one approach. And I know that there are other, there's not one way to do this. So this is just my way. Um, but it was not concocted it as like I want it to be, I just hadn't. I had no intention and I still have no intention of, you know, it of like building an empire. It's all just out of a desire to fill what I see are gaps in how dancers are trained. And certainly now, because I, you know, it started off as though everything I've named so far is completely industry-related. And now there are sessions that have absolutely nothing to do with the industry, because I'm just kind of following, as I said before, I follow my gut. And so I don't have things that are really pre-planned. So I even in a year, I don't know what the session, I mean, by the end of this year, I don't know what the sessions will be because, uh, everything changes and the format of the sessions change drastically over the years and what we do in the sessions change. So the, yeah, the, the making of it was not, was certainly not in a proverbial Batcave kind of like thinking about what I want to do and making it a strategic. It, none of it was strategic and none of it is strategic. And I'm very thankful for anybody who signs up because I'm just doing what feels necessary in the moment without any kind of expectation that it will turn into anything, anything, or that people will come. So they, it, anybody who comes, but yeah, that's kind of the Genesis of it.
Okay. I think that that is also a very romantic telling of it. I think it's beautiful that this, like keeping a finger on the pulse of a what the, what your community is looking for or needs or could benefit from, and then also keeping the finger on the pulse of where you are, what you've experienced, what you have to offer. I think that makes all the sense in the world and is also beautiful. Thanks. Um, okay. So I've known you to be like, in, in the past, you have a extremely strong voice and we already talked about the strong moral compass, um, but I've known you to be somewhat introverted. And I know that a lot of the people that I work with are the same and that they believe that that somehow might keep them from building a global brand or from, um, you know, being a person that can be comfortable in a spotlight. So I would love to hear a little bit about how you manage, um, popularity and dare, I even call it celebrity and being a front runner. I think it's, you know, you know, it's funny actually let's sidebar for a second, a hundred years ago. Um, when I, I don't remember if these two things lined up exactly, but might've been around Camp Fire Vaudeville time. I roughly, um, I was working on a YouTube series called More than Moves and it was, yeah, the talk show. It was my dream that it'd be like, uh, like the Chelsea Handler of dance, except for, I say, I swear slightly less often. Um, when, when I, when I like headed out into the world, creating that show, my mission was for dancers names to be household names. And that was it. I was like, I want people to, to, I want Galen Hooks and Travis Wall and like my friends and myself to be names that are known outside of our little, you know, dancer universe. And then I made three episodes and ran out of money and they're all on YouTube. I would've done it very differently now in retrospect. But I think that maybe partially because of those three episodes, but certainly because of our community and pop culture where it is right now, dancers names are household names. And I don't use that word too lightly. I think that dancers are celebrities. Um, and I would count them among I would count you among them, even if that makes you uncomfortable. Um, but do you feel pressure of a limelight or w what's your kind of take on dancers as celebrities?
Um, I do. I definitely, I don't take myself that seriously that like I do what I do in spite of having limelight on me. And I definitely, I realized recently that my, what excited me about being a professional dancer was not performing or having an audience or working with celebrities. I just fricking love doing choreography. Like I love the act of having choreography put on me and trying to perfect it. And so I re I'm like, I really have never enjoyed, um, attention, I guess. So, so I recognize that, for example, if I, if I, um, I'm teaching a class and I demonstrate the routine that the students will learn how I want it executed if I demonstrate it, because I would think like if I took Wade's class and Wade never demonstrated the choreography, it's like, if you see him do it, you're like *****, Like I recognize that there's that like, that's as much kind of attention as I enjoy having on me. Um, and I'm.. Dancer's Alliance, for example, you know, there's PowerPoint presentations that I did with a thousand people out in the audience and a lot of public speaking. And I think a lot of people would go for, for so many people. You'd rather do a dance solo than have to publicly speak. And I have zero fear of public speaking if I'm speaking about something that I really care about. And so doing something like teaching classes or doing the intensives, I am extremely introverted and don't like attention on me as a person, but I really love and can speak all day about things that I care about and know inside and out. So it's kind of, I don't know if that helps like paint the picture of, in spite of the, I'm not doing it because of, um, having people listen to me, but in spite of that, I'm able to communicate things that I care about and that I know will help people. And with both Dancers Alliance and the intensives, it's, I'm doing it, knowing that the person listening is going to take that information and do something with it. So it's for it's to help people. Um, yeah. So I, I recognize that like most other people who there are a lot of dancers who are celebrities, uh, and I think that's totally fine. There are a lot of people who they want to be professional dancers because they want to dance in front of thousands of people and have a crowd cheering. And that's, uh, so yeah, there are different levels of dance celebrities these days, I guess you would say. And if that's what you want, I mean, people are making like amazing careers out of it. So I guess it's a great thing on balance.
I like this concept, um, in spite of something, not because of something with regards to, uh, shall we call it the limelight or, you know, mass mass appeal or vitality, maybe I dunno, maybe is a better word. Um, but that's, it's a good moment for people listening maybe to take stock and pause, um, to figure out, you know, why? Their, why not to bring it back to the why? Um, and then of course, like take a moment to think about what is it that you could talk about for hours on it and what, what is the cause that would get you up in front of a thousand people and have you unfaced like, what is a thing that you are that passionate about?
That's a great way of putting it Dana. Yeah.
Okay. My friend, I am going to pop out right here to recap before we launch into our next segment. I want to underline where Galen and I landed in our conversation about making choices. I think it's important to highlight that a good choice is one that is in alignment with what the job is asking for and making that choice is really all about dialing up or down, really being in charge of the command station there, um, of dialing up or down, not necessarily on or off, but really fine tuning your creative impulses and keeping your finger on the pulse of the room. Um, in determining when, and how much of that is asked for, is called for, is needed. I also really loved what Galen had to say about her volunteered time with dancers Alliance and SAG-AFTRA and the intentions and mental and emotional stamina that are required to make changes. So circling back to where we started the episode today, I suppose change is good, but it likely won't be fun or sexy or cool to make it happen. At very least it won't be that way all of the time. So as you look out there at the world and see the ways that you would like for it to change, ask yourself what are the thoughts and the things that will keep you going along the path of making those changes. Galen. And I went on to talk quite a bit about the insurrection that took place just a few weeks ago. On January 6th, I confessed in my lack of confidence that another painting or statue or eight count is really what our country needs right now. Um, and I, I asked her, are artists responsible for making change today? And if so, how do we do it? So let's jump back in and hear what she has to say.
Right? I think artists, I, as a, my own individual person, regardless of being an artist or not, don't feel that I have the right to say what other artists should and shouldn't be doing. I certainly don't think every artist and not even every dancer right now has to be, um, has a responsibility to be doing something different because they're an artist, I guess I would say like, if, if it were, what do we as citizens? What are we responsible for right now? That's, uh, then that is a much different thing. But I think as an artist, what I have, okay, I, prior to last year, I never did anything choreographically, creatively, that was topical. There was, it was never like, um, if it was about gun violence, I would never like a piece about gun violence. Um, and if I did have an opinion about something, it was always very metaphorical. And I think, I didn't realize until last year, how important, for example, the, I have a duet routine that I put out called best part it's to it's to the song best part. And it's a duet. And in the class, this was, this was the final class before the lockdown. And I really wanted to make sure that people felt okay, dancing with a partner of the same sex if they identified that way, or even if they didn't, but just having people of the same sex dance together and in the class, it was, that was like, one of the hardest thing was to convince people, even people who do like they're like fricking married to people, the same sex, and they wouldn't feel comfortable in the class, just dancing with that partner. And in putting out the class video of that class, I didn't realize how important it is to share art in moments that don't feel like it's appropriate to do so, because if you haven't been exposed to seeing two people of the same sex dance together, it's exposing you to that in a way that's so much different than if you even see it in an acting scene in a movie it's different to see a level of intimacy that, um, people did in, in those videos, or I guess my point is the value of just art without it being a political statement was definitely brought to the fore front for me last year. And so I think for you, Dana, it might not seem important to see another painting or another combo, but for the next person over that painting or combo might help unlock something for them politically, that that piece of art wasn't even meant to unlock for them. And what it doesn't mean is that everybody has to just be making like a new combo to the new Ariana Grande song right now. Like that's not, if you don't feel called to do that, that's not an efficient use of your time, but if you feel called to do that, then go ahead and do it. I think the problem is if you feel like you are pressured to do that, when really in your heart, you're like, I want to go to this protest, but I need to make this thing that is absolutely irrelevant right now, because that's what I need to do business wise. I don't know if that, if that, like
I got gotcha. That makes total sense. And I do feel callings at this moment. I also feel confusion. I also feel anger. I also feel pride and it, and sometimes I feel those anger and pride, like simultaneously it's, it's quite an experience. Um, but
Sorry, I don't want to, I don't mean to interrupt, but I just realized that what you, what you, what you expressed about not wanting or not needing another painting or combo at the beginning of all of the, I think like probably in the weeks immediately following the George Floyd incident, I, I, you know, for, for my entire life, I've loved dance and loved making things and loved choreographing. I didn't want to do Jack ***. It was like, none of this is important. Why like, why should I be dancing right now? Why would I make up a routine right now? This is not important to make up eight counts right now. So I totally empathize with the feeling of like, well, what are my skill sets in this moment that actually will make a difference. Um, but I just wanted to pinpoint that, like, I totally understand the conflict of feeling like what we do as artists. Isn't important, unless it's a, maybe either if it's a statement about what's happening or that we need to put that aside to do other things that are, that do seem more important, but I also, um, sometimes the art that people makes helps others escape from what's happening and that can be valuable in doses as well.
Right. Right. Thank you for adding that. Yeah. Um, like an, an eight count might not get an eight count. Might not keep people from breaking into the Capitol building, but so, so maybe we don't need eight counts, but what we do need is strong, capable artists that are able to follow their instinct. And in order to do that in order to be big and strong in order to get big and strong, we must act when we are compelled to do so. And we make when we are compelled to do so. And, and on the subjects that we are compelled about. So simple. Yeah.
Yeah. I definitely on the basic question of like, are artists responsible, um, artistically, and I don't know if that was your question, but I just want to say like, some people are, their skill is making fun, like popcorn dance for us escape into, you know, like I don't, I wouldn't expect every dancer to have to change what they're doing artistically to reflect the times. Um, so if you're out there and you feel bad, because I think a lot of people do feel guilty for continuing to create when the world is imploding around them. Um, you can, you can go make up an Ariana Grande routine, but it doesn't mean that that prevents you from then getting on your computer afterwards and phone banking or helping, you know, people vote for the Georgia, if you can do kind of both, they're not mutually exclusive.
Thank you for adding that as well. Holy smokes, Galen, so much knowledge and so much passion for what you do and for sharing what you do. Thank you. So, so, so much for sharing with us today. I think we could continue on for hours. I know you're a busy lady, um, and we've got to get out into the world and make, make some good stuff happen. Um, so thank you so much for joining me. I really hope that we get to talk more as human beings on and off the air in 2021.
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. It was lovely catching up. And, um, these are complicated, uh, topics that I'm sure I did not articulate properly. And I'm thinking off the top of my head as we're talking, but they're, they're important things to talk about.
Thank you for, thank you for putting yourself out there and for, uh, for sharing. Yes, these aren't, these aren't easy questions, even, even questions about things that we know and love like your program. It's always, yeah, it, it does take great care and you are a person who cares greatly. So thank you again.
My pleasure, my pleasure.
All right, my friend, I hope that you are as activated by that conversation as I am. I hope you're reminded about your ability to make change and your ability to make good choices. And I hope you were inspired to follow your compass. I think there's a lot to celebrate from that episode and, and from the world at large. But today I am going to close this episode out with a very personal win. Today, I might cry while I celebrate my win. By the way, I am wearing a sweater that my mom knitted for her dad when she was about my age, my Grandpa George passed away a few years ago. And of course that brought much sadness, but today I'm celebrating the joy that I find in things that can be made, loved, and shared for literally generations. So through tears. Thank you, Mom. Thank you, Grandpa George. I promise I'll take really good care of this adorable sweater vest. Whew guys. Yikes. This has gotten to be a pretty heavy episode. Huh? Well, feel free to lighten it up or to go deep with your win today, but it is that time me with your win. What's going well in your world.
Thank you, my friend. And congratulations to you. Please keep winning. You know, I plan to speaking of that, actually, we really do have a lot of future wins coming up on the podcast. Next week is going to be an awesome episode. We're taking a deeper dive into commitment, and I'm really, really excited about February and Black History Month on the podcast. So don't forget to subscribe so that you don't miss a thing. And also don't forget to keep it funky. Very, very important that you do that in this ever-changing world. Always be funky. I'll talk to you next week. Bye
Me again. Wondering if you ever noticed that one more time. Almost never means one more time. Well, here on the podcast, one more thing actually means two more things. Number one thing. If you're digging the pod, if these words are moving you, please don't forget to download, subscribe and leave a rating. Review your words, move me. Number two, I make more than weekly podcasts. So please visit thedanawilson.com for links to free workshops and so much more. All right, that's it now for real talk to you soon. Bye.
Ep. #37 Marveling with Marguerite Derricks
Even if you tried, you could not duplicate the career of Marguerite Derricks, but with this peek into her thought process, you'll want to try things you've only ever dreamed of…and you may walk away with a new definition of success.
Marguerite Derricks: https://www.instagram.com/margueritederricks/
Marguerite on the set of Marvelous Mrs. Maisel: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIP1IsfjWv4
CLI: https://www.clistudios.com/
KC Monnie: https://www.instagram.com/kcmonnie/
Dana: Hello, my friend. And welcome to the podcast. I am so excited that you are here and I am so excited about this episode. I really cannot emphasize enough. This is a gem. Get ready to be inspired. Um, before I get into this interview with the fabulous Marguerite Derricks, I will start this episode as I always start, but this one comes with a warning. I always begin with wins because I think it's very important to celebrate. What's going well in your world.
I want to be very clear. This week's win is not a copout. This is really truly my win. And when I say this, I mean this episode and this day, this day is my win this week, because in the course of this, you know, this the last 24 hours, I have experienced actual pain and embarrassment. Um, I started my day by falling. You guys, literally hands and knees on the concrete fall. I fell down on the ground. Um, and that doesn't happen very often because you know, dancer coordinated, but I really ate it today. I hit the deck. There was a guy with a leaf blower who actually like ran over and tried to help me up. But social distancing it's okay. I got up on my own and I didn't even spill my coffee because I know what's important and what should be protected. But I, you know, I don't know if you can recall the last time you actually fell, but there's this flush of heat in your body. I started sweating it. I was really checked in like, Whoa, what a Swift warmup. I don't think it's possible to actually get that warm any other way than a real true, honest fall. So I ate it. I felt embarrassed. I felt pain. Um, I felt low literally and emotionally. And then I experienced some extreme technical difficulties in the moments leading up to this interview with Marguerite that I had really prepped for and was planning in my head, the way that it would go down. Of course, nowhere in my plan was zoom difficulties. I really thought I'd had that figured out, but alas, I fell. I had the technical difficulties and then I had this conversation with Marguerite. Tremendously inspiring and informative, and wow, just took me on a ride. So today's my win. Because today I experienced the full realm of human emotion. Well, maybe not full, but a wide spectrum. And that just feels so great. So that is my win today. What is yours? What's going well in your world.
All right, let's do this today. Marguerite and I talk about gratitude. We talk about readiness. We talk about climbing and when it's time to jump and we talk about setting the bar high. Marguerite is much more than a choreographer. True fact. She actually carries the title producer of dance. She is a teacher. She is a leader and she is an example of what is possible. She brings the marvelous to all that she does, and she's been doing it for a long, long time. So please enjoy this conversation with the marvelous Marguerite Derricks.
Dana: Alright. Yes. Marguerite Derricks. Thank you so much for being here today. I'm thrilled to have you. I'm so thrilled to get to talk to you. Oh my goodness.
Marguerite: Thank you. I'm really happy to be here. All right.
It is par for the course on my podcasts that my guests introduce themselves. So have that. What would you like us to know about you?
Oh my gosh. Well, my name's Marguerite Derricks and I'm a choreographer sometimes producer aspiring director, um, at one three Emmy's um, currently, well, I was currently working on season four of the Marvelous Mrs Maisel season four of GLOW before we hit this lovely pandemic. Um, but I work in TV and film and commercials and videos and Broadway and Vegas. So I get to do it all and I love doing it all. So I guess that's it.
That was a gorgeous introduction. Um, and I love the way that you have framed our pandemic as lovely. I think there are a lot of hidden gems in this moment in time. Um, I understand the magnitude. I understand that it is awful in so many ways, but I also do see tremendous opportunity in this moment
When I say lovely, um, you know, I try to find lovely every day, I guess, you know, um, it is horrific cause a lot of people are suffering. Um, and you know, so I, you know, I feel there's so much going on right now. That's so heavy. Um, but I do every single day, I wake up with counting my blessings and finding gratitude in the day and in my life. And, you know, trying to find a lovely, I guess for sure.
I love that. Um, I did a little listen to the podcast that you did with Tony Selznick, um, the Hollywood dance project you mentioned in that episode, starting your day with gratitude. What does that look like for you? Is it a mantra a meditation, a journaling moment? What's the process there?
I wake up every day and I start, I just, I give thanks for, I just start counting my blessings, remember, my dear friend, Doug, Doug Caldwell always ended everything with counter blessings. And so I, I wake up and I start to pray out loud and just think to give thanks for everything that I'm blessed with. And then I go and I press go on the coffee machine and I come back and I say, my prayers, I literally get on my knees. And I say my prayers and I put it my intentions into the universe. And then I there's, um, I open up my, my phone and there's, uh, two books or like they're daily inspirational books that I've been reading the same two books over and over for about 10 years. They're both from Joel Olsteen and they're, you know, just one is a daily, you know, their daily blessings, but there's something interesting about it. It comes from, "Your best life now", um, which was a book that my friend Tyce Dirorio gave me years ago when I was going through a really difficult time. So these are like scriptures and little verses from your, uh, your best life now. And it's so interesting. I literally, as soon as I finished the book, I started again, but it's very interesting on the days that I read something I've read before that all of a sudden has so much meaning on a specific day for me. So I, that's how I start every single day. If I have to go to work at 5:00 AM I get up early so that I can do those things. And I, I don't ever miss a day. And that's how I, I kickstart my days is with gratitude and prayer and, you know, intentions, manifestation. Yeah
That's super powerful. And I'm sensing a little bit of an overlap. I did read a long time ago, Twyla Tharp's the creative habit. She mentioned being a creature of habit and a person who religiously does certain things that put her in this space where she's able to create freely and create freely, but also create on demand that creative muscle is exactly that. So I think, I think perhaps gratitude also is a muscle. The more you practice it, the more accessible that is for you.
For sure. Absolutely. And I'm, I am definitely a creature of habit. I do things the same way. Always like sometimes change is almost jarring to me. Um, so there is something I think for me, that's empowering about that.
I'm so curious. What are the things, what are the, the habits? The alwayses
Well, just, just how I start my morning. Like it's, it's you could almost, you know, it's almost like Groundhog Day. You saw me wake up every day. You would go, Oh, you could say, okay, now she's got a, you would know what to, what exactly what it is that I do. It's a ritual
Opening sequence of all that jazz.
Exactly. It's a, it's a, it's my spiritual ritual that starts my day. And then, you know, the, the, you know, I create, I have a, a certain way that I create, like, I like to start, like there's an ABC and D to how I do each job. Um, yeah, I'm just kind of a creature of habit. I find things at work and I get very comfortable with that.
Well, the things that you have found that work work very well because you're at work is some of my favorite, some of the most memorable dance on screen that I have ever seen. And this is not to discount the live shows as well because La Reve is one of my favorite shows in Vegas, but my husband is not a dancer. He is an engineer, he's an optical specialist in lenses, cameras, camera displays, arrays, all sorts of technical things. When we met, he didn't know who Justin Bieber was, who I was working for at the time, very far removed from the entertainment industry. And when he asked who I was talking to today, I was like, if you have seen movies, like more than one that have dance, chances are Marguerite choreographed that movie, or one of those movies and the breadth of your work. And in addition to the different, you know, the amount of work itself is incredible. You've been working as a choreographer for 35 years and not just in commercials and not just in music videos and not just in live shows, but I call it a diversified portfolio, which is one of your keys to longevity. And we'll talk about that in a second, but, um, I think the most memorable dance that I've seen on camera is likely yours. So I wonder what is the most important thing while you're making and do you seek to make something memorable or, or are you seeking to make it something else.
You know, I, I never, I never approach a project with that in mind. I never think about it being memorable or it like ha like escalating to a certain place. I try to, I just try to find something magical about everything that I do. Um, and I, I really, you know, serve whatever the project is. Right. And I work really hard. I do a lot of research. I try not to repeat myself, although I'm sure I have many, many times. Um, but I never really think like, Oh, this is going to be, you know, memorable, or this is going to, people are going to talk about this for years and years to come. And it is, it's always surprising to me some of the things that are, and some of the things you think are going to be super successful, they're not. And then the thing that you think is just this little thing that you did is it's just like, it's, it's huge. Like when I did that gap commercial, that GAP, Gogo commercial, I became a, like an overnight celebrity and literally it, it opened up more doors for me. Then my three Emmys did, that GAP commercial, a 60 second commercial, a little spot. I did big movies with big stars that I thought were going to be very successful. And then along came this little indie film, Little Miss Sunshine. It became this thing, you know, so I now, like I've learned early on, cause I, I got really hammered, you know, not just me, not me, but me because I was a part of it. I felt very hammered early on when I did Show Girls and Striptease, I felt, I felt the pain of even though Showgirls then turned around to become a whole different thing. Um, but when they came out, like I, early on, I learned, you know, all you can do is your best, and then it's not in your hands anymore. You know? And after, after Striptease and Showgirls or Showgirls and Striptease then came Austin Powers and that was so, so hugely successful. Um, and I didn't know, like the first Austin Powers was an indie film. I think I got paid a nickel and a dime for the first one, you know? And, um, but you know, so I learned early on and I'm so grateful for that, not to expect anything, um, to do my best and to have a good time doing it, to really try to like, enjoy the process, which I'm learning more as I get older to really kind of like take it all in and breathe it and just go like, Oh my God, like, this is so amazing. Like, I, I think when I first started, I like, you know, it kinda, I got on a roll pretty like once it started, it started, I was doing always like three, three or four movies at a time. So it was hard for me to go look what I'm doing, look who I work, you know, like it was just, I was just hustling and getting it done. So I'm in a different space now where I breathe it in and I, I kind of like try to like go, Oh my God, look what I get to still do, you know? But yeah,
The, the first thing that I'm relating that to in my mind is my wedding day when everybody's like, breathe it in, just take a moment and pause and just breathe it in. It is such a big, exciting day and a big, exciting moment. And I think if I were to practice that type of excitement, as often as you are practicing the exciting role of being, living your dreams or the exciting role of being first in command of this massive dance number on this massive project, then yeah. You would probably get more practiced at that moment.
It's just a part of the gratitude, right? It's like, you know, really just, just because it all, everything goes by so fast, like your wedding day, it probably felt like a second to you, you know? Um, so life goes by really fast and you know, the more we can slow it down. And I think maybe that's one of the lovely things that we can come out of this time with this, because we are all slowed down to almost a stop right now. And, you know, I, I hope that, um, when we go back to the life that we know, however, that's going to look that I hold onto some of this, of this kind of like being in the stillness and you know, like I lived in my home for 20 years. I have enjoyed my backyard. I never went out in my backyard before I have friends. Like people come over and say "such a beautiful backyard." I'm like, yeah, it is. I, I never really came out here before, you know, so just enjoy the simple things and, you know, to just take it all in. And I think that I know, Oh, I I'm always the first one rush. Like when, like the minute I'm done with work, I rush off the set. I don't think I'll be rushing off anymore after this. I think I'll stick around and, you know, just like take it all in. Even when my work is done and just watch everybody. And I don't think I'll be rushing out anymore. I know that's something that's going to change on this when I go back.
Oh, that is a beautiful sentiment. I love that thought
My dancers are not going— like dancers are not going to believe it. Cause they know. I, I always say like, well, we're getting ready to do the last shot. Okay. I'm going to say goodbye now because it won't be that anymore. I think I'll slow it down. And you know, like, like maybe do at the end of the day, how do I start? The beginning of my day is slowly leave and count the blessings and the gratitude as I'm ending the day.
Oh, I love that. Taking stock on the, on the, in and out. Um, uh, my several years of life on tour with pop stars, we, we call it a quick out, after the show, you don't even have time to shower. Well, I still consider the baby wipe head to toe a shower, but I've embraced that. I brought that into my social life. Occasionally like guys, I'm doing a quick out tonight, I'll see you later. And there is something effective there, like efficient, trust me, I can talk a podcast is exactly where I should be living. I could talk forever goodbyes. A quick round of goodbyes can take an hour and a half. So I do see the value of a quick out, but I really like the idea of taking stock in and taking stock out. Um, so this, this thought of being grateful in this thought of taking pause and taking a moment to witness yourself doing the things, um, that's powerful to me. I really I'm right now, 34 years old transitioning from being primarily a performer to primarily not a performer. I am many things. Podcast hosts, choreographer, movement coach, um, movement director on several projects, which I love that role by the way. But I really right now am interested in the power of our thoughts and how those guide our actions. So on, on your podcast with Tony Selznick, you talked about a lot of the actions that keep you in this position of continuing doing a thing and continuing to love it. You talked about a lot of the things that you do that have perpetuated a career of longevity. For example, being really diverse in the type of work you do. Commercials, TV shows, award shows, um, Vegas, movies, all the things you talk about being prepared and being a champion of having all the options. You talk about understanding money and understanding how productions are looking to dance team leader, as a guide for how much time things need, how much money they require, how many dancers does that actually take if we want this and how do we, this you're the person with those answers. Um, and this is so great. I love the actions I love like, Oh, just listening to the way you talk about your team and how you utilize time. And, and people is very inspiring, but I would love to know some of the thoughts that keep you in your, in your ongoing love of dance. And is it always been love? Is it, has there ever been love, hate moments of, of this thing in 35 years?
Nope. Never, never hate. I think I've always loved what I do and I still, I still do. I know there's a lot of people that, um, they want to go to a different level. So they, they, there becomes this negative thing about the thing that they love.
Mm. The level that they've been. Yeah.
Yeah. So like, you know, wanting to go here, they hate where they are and I don't, I still love what I do. I still love, I love being with dancers. I love creating movement. Um, I love what I do. I do want to do other things, but it doesn't mean I'm going to stop loving what I do and going, well, I'm not going to do that anymore. I did that when I was a dancer, I stopped dancing to be a choreographer. I felt at the time that I started doing choreography, that there weren't, it was way different than it is now. There, there, there were only that the top dogs there, weren't a lot of young choreographers coming in. That wasn't a thing. So now it's a thing it's like, you know, they're there, there's a more openness to young choreographers, you know, now than what there was then. So I felt like I had to stop dancing and just go into choreography to be taken seriously. And, um, Debbie Allen has never forgiven me for stop dancing. She's always tells me, you know, we got to get you to dancing. I'm like, Debbie, if it's in a rolling chair, sure. I'll do it. But I honestly, I've never regretted it. Um, I loved dancing, but I, I think that I, I do know that I was meant to do what I'm doing now. I was doing it as a young girl. I just didn't realize what I was doing. I didn't, I didn't know that I was choreographing, but I was creating dance. So I never thought, Oh, I want to be a choreographer that just happened. But when it happened, I went, Oh yeah, this is what I'm here for. This is why I'm here. Like, it just fits so well.
Oh, that's a power thought. This is why I'm here. This is why I'm here.
Yeah. So that, that I knew that right on. And, um, it makes sense the way I've been guided through, you know, through magical moments by the universe, you know, big disappointments that led me to, Oh, pushed me onto the track that I was supposed to be on. I always tell people, you know, have a focus in a dream, but be ready to really open it up because, you know, you may think you're going down this road, but this road over here might be so much grander that you just didn't even see it. So, um, you know, by just, I think by just, just keep moving and keep doing your thing and being open to a shift, there's been a lot of shifts in my life. There's been things that I've thought, Oh, that is going to be it, that's going to change my, no, it wasn't that it's always the surprising things. So I try not to attach myself to anything anymore. Like I don't, Oh, this is going to be huge hit. Is it, you know, you never know, Hey, I did so much TV. I think Maisel and GLOW.
are The first TV shows that I've worked on that have gone beyond one season.
There have been so many TV shows like bunheads and shows that I love so much. They were the first. And now they're both in season four. I just remember thinking, hearing of like, you know, shows that would go on for three or four seasons going, Oh my God, that would be amazing. Cause I really love doing television. And I love being on a TV series where you really, you know, you get in there and you, you know, the characters, you know, you get to know, you know, the voice of the show and like with Maisel and GLOW, I know the voice of the show, I am part of that voice. And I, I just remember always like, Oh, that would be so cool. You know, to have a TV show that goes longer than a season. And you know, I'm feeling that now. And you know, I never knew it would be Masiel and GLOW You just don't know what it's going to be. Right.
Follow the lead. Um, I heard a BTS interview or video that you did on the set of Maisel and you, you mentioned that the first step in that process for you and there all the processes will be different, but on Maisel your first step is always to talk to Amy, the director and Dan the producer. So my question is what, what will your first step be when you are the director or when you are the producer, what's the, what's the first step then when you're just, when you are driving.
When I'm when I'm directing, I will have a really good long talk with myself before I get to set.
So the same, the same first step, different audience.
So my first step will be, you know, um, having that, you know, I'm a team player and I really do believe it takes it. It, you know, it takes a village, right. To create greatness, and it would be, um, surrounding myself by, you know, some great, great, great talent. And I think it would be, I would then be an Amy and Dan's position where I would be talking to my people and getting them on board with my vision. Um, so that would be the first step. I would just be sitting in a different seat
Or sitting with a mirror. I love this. So on the subject of teams and the importance of like having a really solid team, you have a rep reputation for using A plus plus talent and for running a tight ship, if you are not A plus, plus you can't hang. And I respect that. I think that is brilliant. And I am not the same. That's not to say that my team isn't A plus plus, but I'm so interested in error in humanness, in, uh, the mess ups in being exposed um, my taste in art is very rarely the modern, sleek, pristine, clean, minimal. It's the thing that has like, you know, epoxy dripping out of the side, or like a smudge over here. And it looks, it looks homemade or manmade. Um, I know because I know a lot of the people that work with you a lot, your work is polished, pristine, exquisite, but your process, your working with you is human and, and open and accepting, and kind of like this, this homemade feeling, this, we are a team we're doing this together. I am wondering personally, professionally, how you navigate that balance for yourself, the maintaining of this ridiculously high standard simultaneously nurturing the team, being a teacher, a lot of like your, your you're training, your dancers and your assistants. You're, you're teaching simultaneously as you're creating.
Absolutely well, that's, that's the thing. It's that? I I'm number one. I am a teacher and I love teaching and I, I keep that going at all times, no matter how busy I am. Like when I'm in New York shooting, Maisel on my days off, I'm at Broadway Dance Center, teaching class, I'm a teacher. I love teaching. Um, I think it probably is the most joyful thing that I do. And I think that I am a great teacher. I know that that's where my, I really have greatness. Um, and so that's where I find my team. All of my assistants start in class, you know, they start in class and a lot of the dancers I hire, I'd meet them in class and it's in class where it's, it's a more loving, nurturing space, it to see how I work and really get to feel the way I want my, the movement to be, you know? And, um, they get to know me and I get to know them. That is always the beginning for all of my, all of my assistants. My assistants are, I mean, A plus plus plus plus plus plus plus like they are, and they're insane and they're wonderful. And, um, they've been doing this, there's this thing that I've just really started to recognize and acknowledge. I've always recognized it, but I'm really speaking on it. Now, my assistance train, the new assistants that come in and they've been doing it since the beginning of time, you know, Michelle Elkin, she trained Jen Hamilton and Shea Spencer. They trained, you know, they, they just pass, they pass it along and they, they, they send, cause they know all my choreography that I do starts in class. Everything that is on film that I've done was in a routine that I did in class. Le Reve is a routine I did in class. A lot of those, I created 15, 20 years ago when I was teaching so much and I had this teen company at Tremaine. And, um, so they, they have old videos that they send each other so that they know my background and the stuff I did because they know, Oh, I'll go wait. There was something I did in Sarah Smile that would be great here. And then boom, we start doing the old routine and you know, then we start to flip it and change it and use it. So, um, then coming to class and knowing like this summer, I've taught nine classes at CLI and for the first time, in a long time, I had the time to go in and create new choreography for class. And I'm so excited to take all this new choreography that I have now, this ball of choreography. I can't wait to put it on film.
That's awesome.
That's all I, you know, I've had the time to really go in and, Oh, it's just, that's been probably the most joyful time of, of the pandemic for me is getting into the studio with my assistants and creating new class choreography. Cause I know it's gonna go on film. I know it's going to go on stage. Um, and yeah, so it all, it all starts for me in the classroom and I'm teaching and learning. I learned from everybody that I teach. So it all starts there and it's, it's such a more relaxed atmosphere that auditions and you know, really a place for us to all really get to know each other. Yeah.
Oh, that's awesome. And I cannot wait to see, I did drop in on a couple of your CLI classes that looked like so much fun and I can't wait to see those sweet moves manifest on some silver screen or some cell phone screen somewhere. Um, okay. So from, as you take from your classwork, put it out there in your, whatever. I mean, they're both professional work, so it's weird to say classwork versus industry or, um,
It's definitely.. people view it differently, but yeah. Yep.
If I were to cross section your early class material say 30 years ago or 20 years ago, and something from this – from this past summer, what do you think would be the biggest difference between these, these two moments in your creative vocabulary, your movement vocabulary, or maybe the easier question if we want to segue with an easier question is what's the same? What is your work? Always
Technical and strong. Yeah. Yeah. Technical and strong, um, lines, clean lines, you know, um, and you know, really heightened and pushing, but making it look easy and effortless. You know, I like, I look, I, especially when I was doing CLI my assistant Lonnie and Bobby, like wholly, they were sweating, they were working their butts off. It was not easy, what they were doing.
They are so capable. They are so good.
They did it, it looks so easy, but I know how hard it is. I think the best thing that ever happened to me is when I, um, busted up my knee early on in my career in my early thirties, I blew my knee out. I had major knee surgery and I had to learn to choreograph without using my body for a while. And then I stopped using my body and I just saw, saw things in my head. So I like, I'm like, can we do five turns? Like I never could do five turns, but I can choreograph five turns. Do you know what I'm saying? So I took it off of what I could physically do into what these two young. So I think that's, what's different. The ability of the dancer as they're, as they're getting higher and higher, I'm able to do higher and higher
Well said. And Holy smokes. Yes, I am constantly, I'm shocked. I mean, a triple pirouette at when I was a junior coming up in competition was like, wow. And now holy smokes. Like it's, it's unreal. The things that these young dancers are capable of. And so cool. Mmm, Where do I want to go next? I could, I could tell a story. This is a fun one. So because the dance world is small. I know a lot of people that have worked with you very closely, KC Monnie is a good friend.
I love him so much.
I Love KC Monnie so much. And, uh, so we were having a chit chat as I was preparing for this. And he was like, you know, Marguerite gave me my first job. Right. And I was like, no, I had no idea. Well, you've been that for many people, which is actually contrary to what most people say about, which is you only hire people that, you know. Nobody would have their first job with you. If you only hired people that you knew. So I think that's very cool. Number one, number two, KC mentioned that when he walked on set, I'm gonna abandoned my family friendly language just for a second. Cause I have to quote him specifically, I'll bleep this out. But KC said, "I was scared as ** ***" I was like, I bet you were. You know, we talked a little bit about what that project was for him. And then he said at the end of it, I felt truly loved and supported. And in that moment I knew that it is not just your work that I admire, but the way that you work, that I admire. And I think that probably speaks to the longevity as well. If you're able to create a space like that and you're able to come with all the rest of the, the technical preparedness, the, the knowledge, not just what it takes to do something great, but the knowledge that you yourself are great, but you're sharing that greatness with your team. I'm just like, Ooh, that is a sweet spot for me. Um, so I'm wondering if you could maybe talk a little bit about what your dancers mean to you and how they get from, I guess you mentioned class as an entry point in a big way, but you do hold auditions occasionally. What is it that you look for in your dancers?
Well, you know, once again, like I love well-trained dancers. I love strong technical dancers, even if, you know, like just really, I love well-trained dancers. I just, I just do, um, and KC is all of that. Um, and I like people that are respectful of, of, you know, that there's sometimes, you know, you have an audition, I've know dancers that will go to an audition and they show you one thing and then they walk into rehearsal and you're like, I'm like, who is that? You know what I mean? So I want whoever I, whoever auditioned for me, that's the person I expect to come to my rehearsal. Um, I always on time, I've always early looking at the clock. The minute it hits, I start I'm so efficient with time. I don't like to waste time. Um, so I, I want really wonderful dancers that, you know, have a great work ethic and I love to have fun, but I like to get the work done. I'm super intense day one. Cause I like, I want to please Amy, like if I'm, if I'm doing something for Maisel, I want to get it done, film it, send it to her, get her okay. Or get her notes. So it's day one is like that. And then we glide, then we have fun. We have breaks, you know, we get to know each other, but day one is like really important to me. Um, so any dance, any dancer that has worked with me knows that about me. They know I come in prepared. It's always usually choreographed. So they're not standing around while I'm trying to figure out 8s and very efficient that way. So I like, I like to dancers that come ready to get it done. Cause then they might be done in an hour. They're getting paid on a side contract for 12 an hour. You know what I mean? And then we can have lunch together, whatever. Like I just like to get the work done because I, you know, there's people that I want to show it to and, you know, get approval by it. All of that. Um, you know, I was different when I was younger. When I, when I first started to choreograph, I was, uh, a hard-ass I was young. I was, uh, hiring my peers. So there was I, there was a wall that I put up. I was known. I used to wear dark glasses all the time, even though they were prescription, like I always had this wall up. I don't have a wall up anymore, but I think there's something lovely about my urban legend because people dancers come in and they know they gotta get it done for me. Like, yes, I am a sweetheart. And I do love you. I love dancers. I love them. And I would do anything for them, but I expect everything from them. And so knowing that like Amy, Amy, we do, we've been doing a lot of interviews, uh, you know, lately. And she talks about me as like this little blonde sargent girl, you know, like, you know, like there's nobody, you know, like, you know, she gets it done. Like I like, I'm not mean I don't have to be, but people, but people respect me so much and they know if it's not good, I'm gonna let you know. And I'm not going to be happy with that. I don't need to scream. And like, and humiliate, I'm not that kind of person, but I expect greatness because I bring greatness, but we can have fun and I can be loving, wrapped all around that. And anybody that's worked with me more than once knows that about me, my dancers they're like my army. They protect me. I remember I was doing the Emmys one year and I had Brandon Henschel and I can't, I remember what there were a couple of my guys, I was, I was dealing with Conan O'Brien and he was nervous. They were like, they were standing at the door to make sure like that. I don't know. Like I just remember seeing them stand there to make sure I was okay. I don't know
Your angels
Angels. So dancers know how much I respect them. They know how much I really do love and care about them. And yes, if I love working with you, you're going to get a call. I'm going to give you jobs. Doesn't mean I'm not going to hire somebody new. But if you are in my circle and you've been an angel to me, why would I not hire you again? Like KC Monnie you know? And sometimes I'll say, guys, you might come into the audition. You're going to get the job. But, but there's always room for new people. But you know, if people are mad at that, I'm sorry. Like they're like Amy Sherman Palladino has hired me for bun heads, Gilmore girls and now the Marvelous Mrs. Maisel and we have a relationship and she knows that I know how to get it done. She says one word to me. It's like, uh, like having to say, talk to somebody for 10 minutes, why would she want to go there? She's got this person that's in her brain that knows. So that's how I am with dancers. Always room for new, especially with Maisel because I'm in New York and I'm starting to get to know all the New York dancers, which is great. And I got some angels there now. I have so it's just, um, there's, that should be for me, any dancer should want to be somebody's angel because that's a relationship. And then you can count on my people that have worked with me. I'm sure when they hear I have a job, they probably perk up because there's a very good chance. If they've worked with me before that, I'm going to try to get them the job because we've had a great relationship and I know what they're going to do on set. I know what they're, how they're going to be in rehearsal. Um, that's a beautiful thing. And you know, if you, if you have a good experience and you do a good job, you deserve that. You just, and not every job, I can't like guarantee them every job. Cause sometimes it's a typecasting thing. But if I can, I do, if there's something wrong with that, then I'm just going to be wrong.
That me tearing up Marguerite, you're dropping the, the, um, uh, what are they called? Dramatic pause.. soundbites. Good Lord. That was tough
Right now. The word. And.. is sometimes I can't find it.
I'm searching. I'm searching. Um, it's funny. I do the same thing in podcasts as I do in the room when I'm creating, I search with my eyes up here. Like that's apparently where I look for them.
I always look off to somewhere. Yeah, yeah.
Like it's there. Yeah. That's funny. Um, I really love what you just said about expectations and respect. High expectations equals high levels of respect. And I really love the idea and I'm faced with this. So often, almost every time I positioned myself with, well, it's either this or that in this, in this case. Well, you're either a softy lover friend of all dancers who doesn't, you know, run a tight ship or you're the drill Sergeant that you mentioned, and you are reminding me as I get reminded all of the time that it is not an either or conversation you can have and be both.
Yeah, absolutely. 100%.
That's so refreshing and inspiring to hear. And to see that example,
When we walk in the room, we all know that we have a job to do so all of those dancers that know me, that I've worked with before that I'm very, like, I call, I've been calling KC every couple of weeks just to check up on him through this time. I've been calling a list of my dancers just to check up on them cause I care about them. But when we go, when we walk in that room, we are all there to work. And like, you know, KC and those people that are close to me, they got their eyes on me. Even if I'm working with a different grouping, KC is focused. Like what can I help her? Like they all become my assistants. They all be. They all, I get that from them. They're there. So they, they, they care for me and they take care of me. And I, I do the same for them. It's it's a mutual respect.
Yes. And this idea that when you do well, they do well. And when they do well, you do well. I do not understand how you could be disrespectful or use demeaning language in a rehearsal process. Although I have been in there as it happens and I've heard terrible stories and I just don't understand how that has a place still
Look it. Nobody deserves that. I think that, you know, um, we have a choice whether we put up with that or not. And I understand sometimes you need the job, so whatever, but I, I, I don't, I don't think anybody deserves that. And I would hope that they could just flip it off and walk out the room because it's nobody's deserves that.
Well, Hey, with more examples like you, then I would say that the time is running out on that end of the, on the spectrum. Um, okay. I have one more theme that I would love to talk about. Although I think people are getting way more than their time dollars worth in this conversation. So I want to talk about readiness because you've done a lot and you've done it in some kind of unusual ways. You did act as an assistant for a short time, but you didn't necessarily, you know, like find the artist that it worked with and just stuck that out or like find me a person that you assist well and just assist them forever or come up through a really successful company, you know, from the core to the principal, to the, you know, those traditional ways of getting places. I don't think were your ways of getting places. So I'm wondering how you navigate the moment or how you make the decision between when it's time to fall in line and climb the ladder. And when it's time to just jump and try something you've never done before.
Hmm. I don't know the answer to that. Actually. I think that I've been, I I've been climbing the ladder by whole career, but it's been a steady climb. I always like, yeah. I don't know. I don't know.
Well, we can, we can find out together we can be a buddy system because I've always got my finger on the pulse of like when to jump and when to climb.
I mean, right now during this time, my son and I have are creating some projects together. It's cool. Yeah. I was supposed to direct a movie last year that he came in and was helping me. We were like really flipping the script upside down and, and we worked so well together and the project fell apart and we looked at each other and we're like, well, let's just come up with our own. So we have a couple projects right now that we're developing and I think I'm ready to jump, but you know, um, yeah. So I guess I'm ready to jump, but I'm still, I don't know that a lot, I guess I'm, I guess I'm, I'm I'm as I'm climbing, if this, when this thing goes, I'm ready to jump so
Well, there, it goes to the saying, one of my favorites. If you stay ready, you don't have to get ready. So if the entire time you're climbing, you're ready for the ladder to be gone.
Cause I used to, I there's something that I said that somebody thought was genius. I don't know the thought behind it, I think is important right now. The difference right now with all of the young choreographers that are working, it's different now they're not climbing a ladder. And so I fear that they're jumping and they may fall off the other side because there's something about climbing like that, you know, building, working your way up, just that the wealth of knowledge and this, the situations that you have to make you get through, like, as you keep going up, you're ready for the next level because you're, you're, you're, you're, you're taking it step by step. I fear sometimes some people that get there too quick, they don't stick around for 35 years. Tell me how many choreographers are still at the top of their game. After 35 years, there are some, but there's not a lot of them. So that's what I would rather do the climb, the climb has been a blast and a good time, man. Like I, I have loved everything that I've done, you know? Um, it's a blast. So
Like a beautiful hike and less like a, like a cargo net. That's terrifying.
It's, it's, it's, it's really beautiful. So I think there's something wonderful about that. But if you do have a desire now what you did now, I jumped here was my big job, 23 year old Marguerite and the back of the addition, like a lion back and forth. Should I audition? I don't know. Should I addition? I don't know. I was starting to work. I wanted to become a choreographer. I was a couple of jobs as a choreographer and I would still go to the auditions and I, cause I was on the fence and then I finally just took the leap and that was, that was my big leap. I haven't, since then I've been climbing the ladder, you know, I found what, like what my real purpose was and it's just been a joyful like journey for me. So that was my big leap was when, early on, like I was a really good dancer, but I was ready for something else.
Uh, and, and willing for whatever pain might come along with falling.
That's something I'm working to practice in my, um, in my daily practice, I call them downloads. Um, I suppose you could call it a meditation or like a, a free writing exercise, just like a check in with myself, really focusing on my willingness to feel all the fields. And this is a perfect moment to be doing right face to face with a lot of discomfort and uncertainty and, and, and, and um, and so I'm really learning the value of simply being willing to experience a fail or a humiliation or, uh, um, a missing of the mark, like so down, what is the worst thing that can happen to me in that case? The worst thing is that I feel a bad feeling though, we're saying, is that, yeah, that's it like, even if you told me that the worst thing is like, well, you lose your friends still. It's just a feeling of being lonely or you could not get hired again, that's a feeling of being unrecognized or useless or incapable. Like those are all, this is just feelings. If I'm willing to feel all the feels I am unstoppable. So from that place, I can jump when I'm, when I'm willing to be okay with whatever feeling happens, where wherever, whenever, however, I land
Thats a beautiful way to put it.
Willingness. Hi, well, um, I'm exercised. I feel great. My face is numb and tingly in certain places from just having been smiling for an hour. Uh, is there anything else Margaret you'd like to add or, um, that my audience really truly is a mixed bag of creative types. Some of them are dancers have been dancers for a long time. Some of them are in other areas of entertainment and art. Um, some of them have left dance and are coming back, I think, as a person who wears many hats and has a tremendous amount of passion. Anything else you might say to people who are looking for information and inspiration in, in this moment?
I think, you know, just never give up, you know, manifest, put out, put out into the universe, what it is you really want. And this is a good time to get quiet and really see what it looks like. You know, what is it that you really want and, and manifest it and just don't give up, like, there's, it may come in such a different package. You know, it may come in like in such an odd way. So be open to the delivery of your dreams, but don't give up dreaming.
And on that ladies and gentlemen, we will round it out. Thank you Margaret so much for your time for your wisdom wisdom and for your work. That is so great. And I just can't wait to see where it goes from here all the direction. Oh my goodness. I can't wait. I'm so excited.
It was my pleasure.
Okay. What did I tell you? Good one. Right. So insightful so wise, and I really was taken aback at how willing and ready Marguerite is to share at all times her, her insights, her wisdom, her experiences, um, her wins. I really, really loved what she had to say about building her team, a team that supports each other. Thank you all as listeners. Thank all of you listeners for being a part of my team. I hope that you got as much out of that conversation as I did. And I'm going to go ahead and venture a guess. You're going to want to download that one. That is a conversation that I want to have in my pocket at all times. If you're digging, what you hear, don't be shy. Please share and leave a review or rating if you're loving what you're hearing. Thank you guys so much for listening. I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day, night, week, month. All of it, keep it funky. Everybody. I'll talk to you soon.
Thought you were done. Now, I'm here to remind you that all of the important people, places and things mentioned in this episode can be found on my website, theDanawilson.com/podcast finally, and most importantly now, so kickball change over to patreon.com/WTMMpodcast to learn more and join. All right, everybody. Now I'm really done. Thanks so much for listening. I'll talk to you soon.