Wolverine12
[QUOTE=Hizashi;5499943]Okay, I leafed through it when I picked up my pull today, and while interesting, it's a little too late. Why wasn't this a launch book? SMH.[/QUOTE]
You need to develop the problems in story before you address the need for correction. We couldn't discuss the morality of the crucible at launch because we didn't know what the crucible was at launch, etc, etc.
[QUOTE=Rang10;5499747]No reason for Doom do this he hates mutants[/QUOTE]
So why include them at all?
One of problem is with some of readers why do I say this because there is no other status quo where people have demand that X-men pov is wrong. No point in the mansion did fans every go the X-men are wrong and you need prove that X-men is wrong. While the Krakoa era is flawed it shows how passively reactive the X-men are as entity and miss on the fact they could do much much more to help mutants but no group fans ever bash the status quo and demand over the X-men be wrong.
This book isn't too late there was always intention to explore some of the downside of Krakoa, They didn't put all these villains on Krakoa for nothing , The council isn't made up of people with opposing views for nothing. There is was never a need to prove Krakoa all the way wrong because X-men always has flaws. We know Hickman has purposely set up this status quo for BOTH SIDES to have legit arguments about it. The problem is that some people can't accept this status quo as good and go to extreme against it instead of understand it has good, bad and grey now. Now that people can see that Krakoa is okay they can explore all angles
[QUOTE=Killerbee911;5500148]One of problem is with some of readers why do I say this because there is no other status quo where people have demand that X-men pov is wrong. No point in the mansion did fans every go the X-men are wrong and you need prove that X-men is wrong. While the Krakoa era is flawed it shows how passively reactive the X-men are as entity and miss on the fact they could do much much more to help mutants but no group fans ever bash the status quo and demand over the X-men be wrong.
This book isn't too late there was always intention to explore some of the downside of Krakoa, They didn't put all these villains on Krakoa for nothing , The council isn't made up of people with opposing views for nothing. There is was never a need to prove Krakoa all the way wrong because X-men always has flaws. We know Hickman has purposely set up this status quo for BOTH SIDES to have legit arguments about it. The problem is that some people can't accept this status quo as good and go to extreme against it instead of understand it has good, bad and grey now. Now that people can see that Krakoa is okay they can explore all angles[/QUOTE]
The X-men began their career as heroes, not as mutant protectors. Where were they, these mutants at the beginning? Usually, when they met a mutant, he/she was a villain they had to fight.
And then, more and more mutant appeared and it has taken a political turn… with no real political solution. It was obvious that mutants created questions that cannot answered with good will and good feelings: each mutant posed problems that were specific…
Krakoa is a good idea: the extremism and nationalism feel forced and artificial to me considering it had nothing to do with the personality Xavier has shown all his life. (And I consider this stuff with Moira as rubbish…)
[QUOTE=Wolverine12;5499949]You need to develop the problems in story before you address the need for correction. We couldn't discuss the morality of the crucible at launch because we didn't know what the crucible was at launch, etc, etc.[/QUOTE]
That's absolutely fair. Maybe it didn't need to be a launch title, but this came out too late, when the crucible was introduced this book should've followed shortly after.
The X-Men's flaws in days past were still through the prism of heroism, they didn't work with Sinister and Apocalypse. Step back and remember that while [I]we[/I] know that there's a massive threat coming to mutantkind, no one other than Xavier and Magneto know that (AFAIK). There's no in-universe explanation for why so many characters are just going along with this.
[QUOTE=Hizashi;5500449]That's absolutely fair. Maybe it didn't need to be a launch title, but this came out too late, when the crucible was introduced this book should've followed shortly after.
The X-Men's flaws in days past were still through the prism of heroism, they didn't work with Sinister and Apocalypse. Step back and remember that while [I]we[/I] know that there's a massive threat coming to mutantkind, no one other than Xavier and Magneto know that (AFAIK). There's no in-universe explanation for why so many characters are just going along with this.[/QUOTE]
They've seen how sh!tty the human world deals with mutants and just how low on the totem pole the well-being of mutants are to the majority of humans. Genosha, Decimation, AvX, IvX....
Like for (loose) example....
If 16 million gay dudes were killed in an attack, then even worse if 99% of us turned Str8 , followed by the world's favorite celebrities picked a fight vwith what's left of us, and lastly the royal family has a roving killer Queer Gas, An island paradise of just immortal gays doesn't sound too bad. And if Milo Yiannopoulos, Colton Underwood, Jack Donovan etc are also there...it's obvious cause the promise of an undisturbed life is bigger than their sh!tty outlook on life
Seems like the plans were made to launh some time after the 7th issue, but then Covid hit, then X of swords...
One things is be grey area, other thing is work with villains on a nation
[QUOTE=BroHomo;5501575]They've seen how sh!tty the human world deals with mutants and just how low on the totem pole the well-being of mutants are to the majority of humans. Genosha, Decimation, AvX, IvX....
If 16 million gay dudes were killed in an attack, then even worse if 99% of us turned Str8 , followed by the world's favorite celebrities picked a fight vwith what's left of us, and lastly the royal family has a roving killer Queer Gas, An island paradise of just immortal gays doesn't sound too bad. And if Milo Yiannopoulos, Colton Underwood, Jack Donovan etc are also there...it's obvious cause the promise of an undisturbed life is bigger than their sh!tty outlook on life[/QUOTE]
I don't know who those people are, sorry. I'll only say that I think I understand what you're trying to say with your analogy but I don't think it works. I assume those people are anti-gay, but I don't think they've committed atrocities on the level of Sinister or Apocalypse?
I want us to contend with the fact that in the Decimation/Utopia Era, those X-Men were vilified by some and excoriated for morally grey decisions, and yet in some ways that era was more justified in its existence. Any defense that I can think of for Krakoa applies to Utopia and yet this era gets plaudits and concerns are waved away as not understanding or respecting what's in the books.
[QUOTE=Rang10;5501619]Seems like the plans were made to launh some time after the 7th issue, but then Covid hit, then X of swords...
One things is be grey area, other thing is work with villains on a nation[/QUOTE]
What I want to know is how Covid delayed some books more than others. If the plan was always to launch WoX sooner but all books got delayed why was WoX pushed back so much farther? Doesn't make sense to me.
Yeah, I can't square it that so many characters are okay with working with so many old enemies.
[QUOTE=Hizashi;5501702]I don't know who those people are, sorry. I'll only say that I think I understand what you're trying to say with your analogy but I don't think it works. I assume those people are anti-gay, [B]but I don't think they've committed atrocities on the level of Sinister or Apocalypse?[/B]
I mean they're alt-right gays soooo
Has Apocalypse committed that many atrocities?
And Sinister could play it wasn't me but my Clone if anyone calls him out
[QUOTE=Hizashi;5501704]What I want to know is how Covid delayed some books more than others. If the plan was always to launch WoX sooner but all books got delayed why was WoX pushed back so much farther? Doesn't make sense to me.
Yeah, I can't square it that so many characters are okay with working with so many old enemies.[/QUOTE]
I think similar thing happened with Children of the Atom, it was mean to realease on april 2020 or something like that, and it was being pushed back until march 2021. it was pushed back so much that the cOutlaw event almost ended before the book was released.
I think that they thought a lot if they would release or not the book, so the big delay
X-corps was also gonna come out last year and was also post poned. They are realy thinking a lot before releaseing books, probably because of lower sales
FFJamie94
Yeah, People who say they are villains now I think are missing the point of this era. With so much destruction that have come their way, the X-men just saying "Let's start our own island and be done with it".
But honestly, I'm happy the mutants have their own sex island. Live free mutants.
pkingdom
The problem isn't really them 'starting their own island and being done with it'. The problems arise when they start with all the subterfuge and hypocritical talk about being so much better and superior than humanity. Like, if this era had been 90% of mutantkind getting on that island and then launching themselves into space or a galaxy far far away I could see that argument carrying water. But you can't say they just want to be left alone when they go around committing genocide and making political assassinations.
And its always been the height of hypocrisy to harp on about how horrible humanity is to mutantkind while ignoring the genocides of Apocalypse, the many attempted massacres of Mystique and Magneto, the ice age caused by Iceman, the multiple cases of mass brainwashing (including of world leaders, openly), the many, many mutants who's powers are just 'everyone around me dies', etc. etc. The comparison to real world minority groups falls apart because real world groups aren't causing/trying to cause mass death every other week.
[QUOTE=BroHomo;5501780]I mean they're alt-right gays soooo
And Sinister could play it wasn't me but my Clive if anyone calls him out[/QUOTE]
Alt-right gays?
I mean, it's not so much the quantity as the quality of the atrocity. We all know what they've done, they're not Magneto (an anti-villiian).
[QUOTE=Rang10;5501805]I think similar thing happened with Children of the Atom, it was mean to realease on april 2020 or something like that, and it was being pushed back until march 2021. it was pushed back so much that the cOutlaw event almost ended before the book was released.
X-corps was also gonna come out last year and was also post poned. They are realy thinking a lot before releaseing books, probably because of lower sales[/QUOTE]
huh, you really think sales are causing those decisions? geez.