I apologize for the delay in responding to your inquiries; both Aaron and I want to ensure that we respond to any questions in a manner that is both concise and complete.
First, we'd like to address the idea of a case that would be under the 62 linear inches size requirement for checking a bag. Such a thing is not possible with a 6/4 tuba, even if the bell were converted to a screw top. Without a bell, the body of the MW 6450 6/4 CC tuba measures 30 x 22 x 14, for a total of 66 linear inches. Add a minimum of 1 inch of padding on each side and the total becomes 72 linear inches. The body of a 6/4 Nirschl is similar, though a bit slimmer around the waste at 30 x 19 x 14. In fact, a case under 62 linear inches would not be possible for a MW 2250 F tuba with the bell removed: 32 x 18 x 10 = 60 linear inches, add an inch of padding on each side = 66 linear inches.
Assuming you fly United for four domestic round trips (4 x $800) and one international trip ($1200), you will pay $4400 in oversize and overweight bag fees.
Assuming you buy a seat for your instrument and fly four domestic round trips at an average price of $400 per extra ticket plus a $1200 round trip to Europe, you will pay $2600 in extra ticket costs.
Assuming you fly American for four domestic round trips and one international trip, you will pay $0 in overweight and oversize fees.
The case with tuba inside weights under 50 lbs, but you get charged a fee for oversize twice: once on your way to a domestic audition and another time coming home from visiting your parents.
Assuming you fly on American for four domestic round trips and one international trip, you pay $0 in overweight and $400 in oversize fees.
The case with tuba inside weighs under 50 lbs, but you get charged a fee for oversize every darn time you fly.
Assuming you fly American for four domestic round trips (4 x $400) and one international trip ($300), you will pay $1900 in oversize and overweight bag fees.
Assuming you fly United for four domestic round trips and one international trip, you will pay $0 in oversize and overweight fees.
Finally, if you really want avoid any and all risk paying oversize fees with an Accord Case, fly United.
Please let me know via PM or posting here if you have any additional questions!
Thanks for coming back and laying out all that info!
I don't doubt at all that your case is superior to anything else manufactured up till now. I also have no doubt that it was considerably lighter than the Walt Johnson 6/4 case (52 lbs. by itself!), and that you have a great chance of not paying overweight fees.
As someone who has been hammered by oversize fees, the phrase "once bitten, twice shy" comes to mind.
I have to agree with your well-researched logical information. Your case will definitely be a money saver, in the long run. I also think it's entirely possible that the check-in agent will not bother to take out his tape measure and measure the case, once he sees it is under 50 lbs. However, I think it's only fair to mention that the possibility does exist to be charged oversize fees, especially since the horn itself is oversize, according to airline rules.
I think that your case is an exciting and interesting development.
What is the weight of the case, without a horn in it?
Last edited by roweenie on Sat May 30, 2015 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
In looking at the picture of the case in the OP's post, it seems to me that the case "shell" is laid out more to accommodate a right facing bell instrument.
The "contour" on the hinge side seems intuitively, to be intended for the opposite side of the tuba that actually occupies the case, in the picture.
As a result of that mismatch, the angle of the instrument makes the distance of the edges of the bell unequal from the end of the case, preventing uniform padded protection for all parts of the bell edge.
Location: Lurking in the shadows of NYC!
roweenie wrote: Thanks for coming back and laying out all that info!
You're very welcome! The case weighs, at maximum, 17 lbs. With a 28 lb MW 6450, that would come out to 45 lbs.
My experience has been that the bell lines up exactly with the bell cushion, regardless of the instrument in the case. You fit your bell to the cushion and then you adjust the padding around it so that the instrument fits snugly inside the shell.
Aubrey Foard wrote: First, we'd like to address the idea of a case that would be under the 62 linear inches size requirement for checking a bag. Such a thing is not possible with a 6/4 tuba, even if the bell were converted to a screw top. Without a bell, the body of the MW 6450 6/4 CC tuba measures 30 x 22 x 14, for a total of 66 linear inches. Add a minimum of 1 inch of padding on each side and the total becomes 72 linear inches. The body of a 6/4 Nirschl is similar, though a bit slimmer around the waste at 30 x 19 x 14. In fact, a case under 62 linear inches would not be possible for a MW 2250 F tuba with the bell removed: 32 x 18 x 10 = 60 linear inches, add an inch of padding on each side = 66 linear inches.
In a previous post I suggested that the solution is to remove the bell *at* the bottom bow. IF you do that(along with the leadpipe), I am reasonably confident that even a PT6 would fit in a large Samsonite suitcase. Worst case scenario it might rest at an angle in the suitcase rather than flat.
Ironically, tall bell tubas are the ones most likely to benefit from this idea. Something like the Thor might never be small enough. You are also correct that many 6/4 tubas might never be made small enough.
I *LOVE* the idea of an accord. However, once the bell is made removable your only cost would be the actual suitcase. Long and short term I think my suggestion is more affordable and you'll be guaranteed to never deal with overweight OR oversize fees again.
Your idea, in theory, sounds excellent. Unfortunately, it would not work given several limitations.
First, the largest hard shell suitcase Samsonite currently has in production measures 31.5 x 22 x 12. This may indeed be wide and long enough to accommodate a 5/4 CC tuba, though virtually any tuba with piston valves would not be able to fit - with sufficient padding - inside the 12 inch height.
Second, Samsonite has discontinued its Kevlar products; the strongest material they produce to protect your assets is a polypropylene plastic material. This may indeed be quite strong, but it does not measure up to the protection granted by Kevlar.
Third, assuming a suitcase could be outfitted with the proper padding to hold a bell-less tuba, what would you do with the bell? A PT-6 has a 19" bell diameter, meaning it would not fit in a narrowbody (737, 757, Airbus 32x, MD 80, etc) aircraft's overhead bin. It could fit in a widebody (767, 777, 747, A330, A380) aircraft's window bin, but, with extremely few exceptions, those aircraft are used exclusively for international travel. Furthermore, a 19" bell would not fit under the seat in front of you. It might be possible to check the bell, but you would then have a technically oversize case: the bell of a MW 2250 F tuba is 17.3 inches and the bell down to the bottom bow is 25 inches. Add an inch of padding on all sides and your final dimensions are 19.3 x 19.3 x 27, or 65.6 linear inches. In order to check it, I'm assuming you'd need to custom design the bell case and you'd probably want to use Kevlar or a comparable material in order to guarantee the bell's protection.
The bottom line is that the Accord Case is simply the best option: it is designed specifically for the tuba, uses the strongest material currently available, and is the lightest and smallest tuba flight case on the market.
Please see my previous posts upthread for more information. For instructions on ordering an Accord Case, please see this post.
I agree with everything that Aubrey has mentioned above. We have spent the time to measure all of the different type of flight case scenarios out, and go through each and every airlines "restrictions" for outer dimensions. Even before I gained elite flier status, whenever I traveled with one or two tubas in an Accord case I was never charged for oversize or overweight fees.
This is a GREAT investment for those of you who fly with 5/4 and 6/4 tubas.
Hi folks... sorry took me a little while to get this here...!
A bit of back story… back in 2011, I decided to upgrade my case… I spoke to many case companies, did quite a bit of research — ended up deciding that *no* tuba case manufacturers had the right professional solution. I ended up moving on to hi-end manufacturers of cases for string instruments which seemed to be generations ahead technologically, and I stumbled across Accord. They actually listed a tuba case in their catalog, but a bit later realized that at the time they had only made a few of these and the concept was still in development.
My needs are a bit more extensive than many, my case gets dragged around constantly in a zillion different contexts. It’s beyond just flying... It's a matter of going from planes to trains to cabs to vans, even to boats…. I need something that fits in normal vehicles, is carryable on my back, is under weight regulations for the airport (as my tuba only weighs 18 pounds without a case). Every USA-made/designed case seemed to be military grade… with a “hum-vee” type of approach. This was unacceptable for my needs.
I live in NYC and play the tuba full-time, so I need a hard case which is also a daily gigbag replacement. My tuba is constantly dealing with subway turnstiles, taxicab trunks, sound guys at clubs, swimming through drunk crowds etc etc…on a daily basis.
So, a gigbag replacement... which would also work as a flight case. Too much to ask? Cello players were able to have this... so that's the direction I went.
Fortunately, Accord was interested in developing this further, so we worked together and went through two generations of the case through a fair amount of trial. They were fantastic to deal with.
The first case I got from Accord was an absolute godsend. It was the answer to these exact problems. But… it still had some construction issues. The case was built using their standard stock parts from their world-famous cello cases, which weren't quite strong enough yet for an instrument that was several times the weight of a cello.
The company responded to my requests fantastically… and we worked several times to improve the design. On subsequent trips to Europe I would meet them and they upgraded my first case with better hinges and handles right away.
With some regularity I play/stay in Venice, which is not too far from Pula, Croatia where the cases are made (it is a relatively small family business). After about a year of use, I went to the factory and they closely surveyed the wear on my first case, and made a second case for me with many improvements I suggested — stronger handles, hinges, metal wheel housings, and most importantly a thicker and more rigid lid, sides and stronger lip bead too. We also redesigned and strenghtened some of the inner padding.
I’ve been using this second case for about 2.5 years… and it’s fantastic. I use it every day — I no longer use a gig bag. This is my everyday tuba case. And it gets taken everywhere.
Now, regarding 6/4 BAT cases etc… In my talks with Accord and when I went to the factory — when they were interested in developing this program, I told them that the a key to American players were BAT cases. They had, at the time, started to look into making a 6/4 case, and at one point were making one for a European player… and said it was totally possible.
In 2013, the person who seemed to be spearheading the tuba project retired from the company, and it seemed that it may have been shelved for a while… but now it seems with our eventual community interest (pooled by Aaron and Aubrey!) that the project is continuing.
I’m thrilled that this is happening and that this case can come into the world. Professionally owning this case an incredible help. Incredible. I can't emphasize it enough.
My horn is newer ‘old’ Miraphone 186 4U CC (late 1970’s/very early 1980's). It weighs about 18lbs out of the case and about 40 in the case. (version one was 38lbs, it went up to 40 for version two which is a bit thicker) It’s far under the usual weight limit of 50lbs. I usually don’t get hassled about linear inches.
It fits into the trunk of a standard US taxicab (Crown Vic or Town Car) but does not aways fit into the trunk of a small Honda hybrid cab, when then it sits in the back seat on my lap. In the back of minivans it can even fit standing upright. Many European cabs are often BMWs or Mercedes which usually have no problem (German engineering fitting a tuba, go figure!). On trains it usually fits into the luggage racks. Conductors rarely hassle me.
A general note while flying: SCHEDULE LONGER LAYOVERS. On layovers less than, say, 90 minutes, the tuba will get left for a later flight (especially in England) As a rule for me, I insist on layovers of 2-3 hours to ensure good tuba transfer. I also leave detailed instructions and a photo inside the case to insure proper handling.
As I am not flying anymore, I haven’t followed this thread in debt. Yet enough to get a favorable impression of the Accord tuba case. So I was not surprised when a European tubist, well known as orchestral player, soloist, and clinician, presented his new Accord case on his Facebook wall.
The surprise came, when another European tubist, even better known as soloist, recitalist, and clinician, condoled his college on his acquisition. There was a specified list of complaints plus an almost shocking photo of his badly cracked Accord case. The worst complaint apparently being that the carbon fibre of the Accord case doesn’t flex when roughly handled like being dropped on tarmac or on concrete. It cracks.
The experiences are not mine. I have no financial interests in the case market whatsoever. I am not telling the names of the said tubists. The purpose of this post is bringing forth another view on this apparently costly case.
These new rules go into effect in March of 2015.
(B) there is space for such stowage at the time the passenger boards the aircraft.
(E) the passenger wishing to carry the instrument in the aircraft cabin has purchased an additional seat to accommodate the instrument.
(C) the instrument can be stowed in accordance with the requirements for carriage of carry-on baggage or cargo established by the Administrator.
So-bottom line--are these new upcoming rules favorable for an Accord 6/4 case or not?
jonesmj wrote: So-bottom line--are these new upcoming rules favorable for an Accord 6/4 case or not?
I have a pair of (*not* lightweight...probably 15 - 20 lbs. heavier than MTS/SKB plastic) Walt Johnson fiberglass cases (that - between the pair - will fit most anything "well enough"), and neither of them (with tuba inserted) are going to come anywhere close to those publicized limitations...and I can put a padded bag in there with the tuba...OR use the tuba bag (in air transit) for luggage for clothing, accessories, etc.
bloke "Most of the time, when a TUBA player is flying somewhere to play, they probably aren't going to make any more money than they would if they just stayed home".
I've been following (and commenting on) this Facebook post as well. It seems that the tubist in question had decided to fill the case with hot, dense foam that would mold perfectly to the tuba. In theory, this seems like a good idea. In practice, the foam pressed up tightly against both the case and the tuba, resulting in case, foam, and tuba being unable to absorb the shock of any impact. The result is that the case cracked and the tuba's valve section got wrecked. I think it's important to point out that, in spite of being the lightest and strongest case on the market, the Accord Case is not invincible. As I said upthread, the Accord Tuba Flight Case is designed to be dropped from a three story building and not crack. A five (or ten or twenty) story building? No guarantees. In this case, the tubist said that the foam was too rigid to absorb the impact. This is important because, no matter how strong the case, there needs to be the ability to absorb impact at some point. That is why Accord gives you soft, modular foam padding when you receive your case: you can fit it exactly to the tuba inside, but it will be flexible enough to absorb any strong impact.
To summarize: it takes an extremely strong impact to crack an Accord Case. In this instance, the circumstance of there being no place to absorb impact inside the case caused the case to become compromised.
Last edited by Aubrey Foard on Thu Feb 12, 2015 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
Glad you expanded the story with this aspect of modification to the Accord case. I hadn't understood this from the recent FB thread.
imperialbari wrote: Glad you expanded the story with this aspect of modification to the Accord case. I hadn't understood this from the recent FB thread.
No worries and happy to help! This aspect wasn't added until after your original post. Cheers.
Request: Could accord make note of measurements that fit really well for tuba models that they're getting repeat purchases for? I feel like if someone already successfully got their Baer snuggled up right, than I would rather go with those measurements than my own. Thanks!
Thanks for doing the legwork on this, really a huge help!
I'm about to add to the pile and order one myself, although I was curious to check in first with Aubrey, Aaron, or anyone who has successfully ordered and used an accord case for a PISTON horn. Obviously in the measurement form, it's a rotor tuba; pistons seem to "stick out" slightly more than a rotor horn, so I didn't know if this would have any effect on the case design/mold.
Related to that, I didn't notice any measurement for depth on the form (going THROUGH the horn, from top of pistons to the body)…perhaps this is not needed because of the case design?
And finally, it seems like F and I, and G and J are virtually the same measurements on the form, so one or the other are redundant.
FYI, I'll be ordering a case for a PT-6P horn. Any help would be much appreciated!
Walt Johnson used to offer some warranty/guarantee of the condition of an instrument transported in one of his cases.
I wonder if Accord offers anything similar...or (perhaps) a free replacement (or something...??) if it gets cracked to bits.
The player that had his Accord case crack offered to give the Accord company some design input. They never came back to him.
The player who opened the said FB thread also had problems communicating with Accord. He simply drove down to them in Croatia and fetched his case.
I said I would give an update after using the case for a while.
First, the not so good!
Accord as a company, is a giant mess. Communication is a giant mess. My case arrived, and looked gorgeous. But, it was missing some majorly important things. It is missing a bumper, that exposes one of the hinges to major wear and tear, and also the case itself where it receives the most use. It was also missing the movable padding on the inside. The padding that came with the case, is barely enough to even call it a "gig bag."
For 3+ months I had to make my own (bad) padding with materials from a craft store. After 3 months, and some strongly worded emails, Accord sent the correct padding. Accord is also going to send the missing bumper, and a replacement hinge.
The major communication issues seem to be with the distributor for the USA. It seems to be the main issue with everyone in the US and Accord. Emailing Accord directly resulted in a better and faster resolution.
This all sounds bad, but here is the good!
The case itself is wonderful and a work of art, I love it! It looks fantastic, and is incredibly strong and light. It has been on now 8 different planes, and is of course pretty scuffed up, but is doing it's job. Being able to go from plane to a small rental car without a giant flight case, or having to buy extra seats is an amazing feeling! I have not had to pay any weight/size fees yet on Delta/United, and it is technically oversize on Delta. It is thin except the bell section, and weighs 38 pounds, nobody has given it a second look.
I have the back pack apparatus installed, which I recommend 100%. The backpack padding is put on with snaps, which broke off after the first flight. Not a concern for me as I found that thing to be very uncomfortable and didn't use it. The backpack straps themselves are very comfortable and feel safe!
People who keep saying the wheels are going to break off, probably haven't seen it in person. The wheels are incredibly strong! I have no fear of them breaking. Plus, if they even did break, it is a very simple system, I feel like it would be an easy fix.
If you travel, this case is a must, and is worth every hassle to get! Actually, even if you don't travel, paying a little over $2k to really protect a $15k horn is probably a good idea.