Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Siân Gwenllian, and I'm very pleased to welcome Helen Mary Jones, who is substituting for Siân today. Can I ask whether Members want to declare any interests, please? Can I just, then, place on record that I have got a son who was about to do A-levels, so is affected by the exam decision? We'll move on, then, to our substantive item today, which is an evidence session with the Welsh Government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, who is director of the education directorate; Huw Morris, who is the group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning; and Rob Orford, who is the chief scientific adviser for health. Thank you all for coming. We know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone, and we appreciate your attendance. Minister, I understand you wanted to make an opening statement today.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, if that's okay, Chair. As you know, it's not usually my practice to do that, but I think it is important today. COVID-19 coronavirus is one of the most significant issues that the Welsh Government and the people of Wales have dealt with in recent times. Dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging. Things are changing on an hourly basis, and we have to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety. But I would like to assure you that our aim, and my aim, and my main concern as the education Minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and other educational settings. But we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education. Public health is clearly the priority here, but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education, unless absolutely necessary. So, the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly, but I believe it was necessary, given the advice and recommendations that we had received from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground. From next week, schools will have a new purpose. They will help support those most in need, including people involved in the immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak, and I'm working with my colleagues in the Cabinet, with Government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans. The key areas that we're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning. This includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs. I can confirm that all maintained schools in Wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class Hwb digital learning platform, including virtual classrooms and video-conferencing facilities. A guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely. Yesterday, I announced that, whilst there are no easy choices, we have agreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series. Learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work, drawing on a range of information that is available, and I will announce further details shortly, but I felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff. I would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work that they have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn. We need to continue to do this work together, as we face the continuing challenges posed by the coronavirus. Diolch yn fawr.
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much, Minister, for that statement. We'll go to questions from Members now, and I've got some questions from Dawn Bowden.
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Can I thank you, Kirsty, for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you've been having to make? You've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are not taken lightly, and we understand that that is the case across Government. So, thank you for what you've been doing. You've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose. I take from what you're saying that you haven't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like. You've talked about the children of key workers, free school meals, additional learning needs. Is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas?
Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Dawn. So, you're absolutely right, our priority now is to operationalise, with colleagues in local government and schools, a practical response. And I have to say, we're working to timescales that I would have hoped to have avoided, but given the fact that we're having to make these decisions quite quickly, I hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on Monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward. Steve will be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on, but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of those on the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend, and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on Monday. Our other priority is indeed free school meals, and, again, where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on Monday. Again, we're responding to the emergency situation that there will be families that were expecting a free school meal on Monday, and, again, individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term plan to deal with the situation. The same thing also goes for additional learning needs, and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners. So, those conversations began a few days ago. I had the opportunity to meet with the First Minister and Andrew Morgan, the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association, yesterday to talk about what local government could do, and what they were already doing. Those plans in some places are already quite developed, and are now working at pace, but I hope you will understand that where we start on Monday is the emergency response, and that work will develop as we go forward. But, Steve, perhaps you could—? Because Steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff, rather than me. Steve.
Steve Davies: In short, the new purpose is to meet the needs of particular groups of children and young people. In some cases, some of the response to supporting free school meals, in the short term in particular, we may use the schools as part of that, and I'm certain that will happen in some cases. The second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers. Now, there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers, but I think it's really encouraging that in my discussions yesterday—I spoke with all 22 directors of education, and the examples we're picking up in their work with schools is they're already ahead of the curve in working with schools. So, schools have identified the number of children with health workers. It will grow, and we will need to look at that range. Then, the third area is vulnerable children. They're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than at school, vulnerable in terms of mental health, and for those children, as well as having an experience that we want to be planned, some have compared it to a snow day, particularly on Monday, when you're putting something together in the short term, but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through. So, the range of activities—some will be focused on educational activities, some will be cultural, some will be sporting, and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children, which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools, but there will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children. What we are doing currently—I have staff back at Cathays Park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over the next two days will have been able to identify, at least at the earlier stage, in terms of health workers, the type and numbers of people. There are already schools who have informed us, and local authorities, of their plans for these activities to be starting next week, which is quite amazing, actually, given where we are. But we are expecting, and we're writing to schools today, that during the course of next week, headteachers to be in schools, and with their staff, taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in, and in that period from next Monday through the two-week period, to Easter, we expect staff to be both planning for delivery post Easter, but also, as I said, building on and reflecting the good practice that's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities, and I'm sure a number of them will be inviting and enabling those children to come in on Monday. So, Monday will be a challenge for some, and not all will be delivering it, but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups over the next two weeks, and particularly to have resilient programmes post Easter for the groups of children in those three categories that I said.
Dawn Bowden AM: Those that have been identified. Can I just clarify one thing? One of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register. They would be included.
Steve Davies: Yes, definitely. Vulnerable children, yes.
Kirsty Williams AM: In our discussions, we have asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation. We know that, for some children, being at school is part of their safeguarding arrangements, and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs.
Steve Davies: I wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that, for those children, the register is up to date and the plans are in place. I'm working with Albert Heaney my colleague, the director for social services, who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we are joined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a supplementary from Hefin, and then Suzy.
Hefin David AM: A very quick and simple question: how are you going to communicate this to parents? There's a bigger picture and it's changing all the time, as you said. The Welsh Government have a route to communication. The most helpful thing I've seen is that Public Health Wales have a single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus. How will this then be cascaded to schools, because there's obviously a time lag? So, have you considered how this is going to be communicated directly to parents?
Kirsty Williams AM: We're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across. So, we're using the more informal methods of communication, but are relying on a systematic approach via individual directors and through to individual schools. Welsh Government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus. We're looking, as quickly as we can, to have a frequently asked education questions page that we can update. Understandably, people are communicating to us on Twitter asking questions. It is impossible for the communications team here to be able to respond individually to every single person that is sending Facebook messages and sending tweets, so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have a frequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that. With regard to parents, for instance, we're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying, 'Do you consider yourself to be a key worker? Do you work in the NHS? Please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children.' So, schools are already taking the initiative and having those conversations with parents about what their needs will be. And, as I said, Hefin, will it be perfect on Monday? No. It won't be perfect by Monday, because we're working to such constrained timescales. But we will continue to build that resilience. We also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week, given the situation we find ourselves in with public health advice at the moment. But that public health advice may change. Therefore, have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances? These are some of the challenges that we're having to grapple with. So, as I said, what happens on Monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in May. So, I hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: Yes, just on this question of vulnerable children, I'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who may not be obviously under social services' care or on a risk register or whatever. Teachers know their pupils and, very sensitively, they could include people who may not be obviously in need.
Kirsty Williams AM: We would absolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors. As you said, quite rightly, they are the individuals who know their children best and know which children, perhaps, will need this extra support. We will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. The second part of my question is: there were going to be Easter holidays anyway, weren't there? What was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period? Has that gone out of the window now, the normal holiday provision for children? Because that's not there normally, is it, except in separate—
Kirsty Williams AM: We do find ourselves in a strange situation. My understanding is what we're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make some strange, 'You get this for two weeks, then you don't get it for two weeks, and then you're back in.' My understanding is, in England, that is what they're going to do. We're trying to create a system where it will be seamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays. It won't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks. We're trying to create a system that will run uniformly. That's our policy goal at the moment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Helen Mary.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Just briefly, building on Suzy's question, one particular group of children and young people that I hope will be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers. For some of them, they may not be able to come into school because the people they're caring for may have to be excluded because of their conditions. But I think that, for other young carers, coming to school is an absolute lifeline, because they're working at home. So, I don't know if it's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussions with local authorities, but it's a group of young people who, again, may not be vulnerable in other ways, but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school. And the other group—and this, I suppose, goes back to Suzy's point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse. Again, these may very well not be children who are in any formal contact with social services, but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be. So, again, I'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools. If a teacher is worried about what a child's circumstances are like at home, whether they can be, as you said, Kirsty, included as one of the—. They may not be formally identified, but if the teacher knows that they're at risk, or there is an instinct that they're at risk, they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you're making at this difficult time.
Kirsty Williams AM: We will certainly raise those issues. We have to do that in the context of what is deliverable, and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well. One of the reasons why schools are closing is to help manage this disease. We know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still. So, we will take these issues into consideration, but remembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan. Rob is the expert on that, not me.
Rob Orford: Yes, absolutely. This is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we haven't seen in 100 years, and so we're having to evolve and iterate things as we go. Next week, I think, will look different to this week. So, it kind of is what it is. We've all got a role to play, and schools certainly have a significant role to play in breaking those chains of transmission. Areas that we're worried about are displacement activities. If we close the schools, then people collect at others' houses. We need to send a really clear message that you're all part of the solution, and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak. The more that we can do that, the easier it will be when we go forward.
Helen Mary Jones AM: I'm sure that that's true, but I'm sure that we wouldn't be wanting a child who's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum and dad—. It may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time. Hopefully, we're talking about relatively small numbers, but I just—.
Kirsty Williams AM: We will look at vulnerability in a holistic way.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, you had a supplementary.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning, Minister, and your team. Can I just put on record my thanks for all that you're having to endure at this moment? I think it's fair to say you have the support of Assembly Members and, indeed, our communities. Now, the question I have: if Cylch Meithrin have to close, where will they get money from to pay their staff? Because, currently, thankfully, there's support for businesses.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, we're not doing Cylch Meithrin at the moment; we are sticking with schools, as we discussed in advance. Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Can I just get some clarity, Steve, around what you were saying in terms of next week? Because I think the practical applications of this—and I understand that you don't know all of this yet, I understand that—the practical applications are what is coming to us, obviously, with constituents saying, 'Well, what's going to happen to that?' Just so that I can be clear, are you saying that, at this stage, every headteacher will be in school on Monday, as will all their staff?
Steve Davies: Within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health, the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the Minister today, to be made clear—is that they are closing for the majority of pupils, but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in; for some to start the delivery of what we just described, but that will probably be small numbers, but more importantly to plan to ensure that, after the formal Easter period, which is school holidays, the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we've been discussing.
Dawn Bowden AM: So, would you anticipate—again, I know this is all a bit 'if and when', and it depends on the changing nature of the advice, but from what you're saying, I think we can probably anticipate that, as we go forward, there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites. Would that possibly—?
Kirsty Williams AM: That is a potential. So, we already know that one of our local authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way. That local authority has already chosen those locations, and is already having communications with how they will then staff those centres. So, that could well—. That, I expect, in the longer term, will be the nature of the provision that we will get to. But that's not for us to dictate. The local authorities are best placed to understand what is the best, pragmatic use of the resources that they have available; and of course those resources, primarily, are human beings. So, we've talked a lot this morning in the context of teaching staff, teaching assistants, but we're also having discussions with local authorities, and I met with the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services this week, to look at deploying youth workers, to look to be deploying other staff that the local authority may employ, like sports development officers. There may be cultural officers that can have something to offer. Welsh Government will be talking with a range of our partners who perhaps their normal activities can't continue at the moment, but actually have personnel who want to add to this effort, who want to be able to be part of a provision going forward in the longer term, to be able to provide a great place for children to be. We want to give parents, who we are asking—. Let's think about it, in these worst of times, we're asking parents to leave their children so that they can go and do essential work, and some of that essential work is putting themselves at risk, potentially. And we want to give those parents confidence that, when they leave their child with us, that child will receive something really worthwhile, and they can direct all of their attention to doing their job.
Lynne Neagle AM: Just before you—. Janet, have you got a supplementary on schools now, not on early years settings?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I lost the signal before, so it's a little bit confusing at this end, so bear with me. Just in terms of the closure of schools, I have been asked by teachers what does new purpose—you may have covered it, but bear in mind [Inaudible.]—mean in practice. And also, they're already asking what will next—? I know you said earlier that next week could look and probably will look significantly different than this week, but what can they expect to be happening next week in terms of this new purpose work?
Lynne Neagle AM: We've covered that, Janet.
Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, Janet, I just want to say thank you very much for your kind comments. That's really, really kind of you. We will be sending a letter today to clarify those positions. So, each school will receive letters today about the expectations of schools next week.
Lynne Neagle AM: I think you're having trouble hearing us, aren't you, so I think—?
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: No, I heard that loud and clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: But I think you missed the earlier comments, when we went into some detail on the new purpose of schools. So, I'm sorry about that; we are having some problems with the connection.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, we couldn't get a signal.
Lynne Neagle AM: Dawn.
Dawn Bowden AM: Just in relation to special schools and how they will fit into this new purpose arrangement.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, they're absolutely central to that planning. We know, again, that some of these children are our most vulnerable and they are some of our most pressurised families. Therefore, the same situation that we've just described for maintained schools also applies to special schools. We'll be having discussions about what arrangements can be made for those children within their own usual settings. In some cases, that may not be possible. So, again, already local authorities are making different provision. Can I give a shout out to the work of Rhondda Cynon Taf in this regard, who are already doing some excellent work with regard to how they can keep in touch with their children who usually would attend their special schools. But, again, Steve can give more detail.
Steve Davies: I think special schools have already been hit by this challenge, because a significant proportion of their children, because of their conditions, have not been coming to school, they've been isolated. But the principle we've used there is, actually, even if it's a minority of children who go to those schools and are vulnerable, they deserve and need that support through the school. So, we would expect that to function with the focus on vulnerable children. But similarly, even in special schools, there will be children whose parents will be key workers, so we would expect them to apply that same principle. Just quickly in response to the earlier question, while we may bring some groups of children into separate schools, we’ll have to continue with the principle of keeping social distance and any provision for a child in a special school in a different setting would be unlikely, given the nature of the special school, so we would look to cater for that within the original school.
Dawn Bowden AM: Just a couple more questions from me. It’s likely, because I know it has already happened, that some schools might actually close before Monday. Some schools have already partially closed. Are you quite happy that headteachers still have the discretion to do that, if they feel that’s the right thing to do?
Kirsty Williams AM: In this situation, the discretion of the head still remains. As I said, we will be communicating with all schools today about our expectations, if at all possible, to have schools open for staff to do some of this planning and to be able to respond to these priority needs that we've just talked about.
Steve Davies: The rationale of headteachers for closing schools up to now has been that they can't cope with the safety of the children. I think, moving forward, it's unlikely that that would be a rationale that headteachers would want to use for not engaging and planning for the future.
Dawn Bowden AM: We're only talking about one more day, now, anyway, aren't we? So, just in terms of confirmed cases in schools, is your view at this stage that, if there is a confirmed case in a school, once that school has been deep-cleaned, it can reopen again?
Kirsty Williams AM: If we had a confirmed case in a school, then all the usual mechanisms arranged by Public Health Wales would kick in at that point.
Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. And my final question is in relation to the position of early years and childcare settings. I know that kind of crosses over into somebody else's portfolio as well, but I think we know that. Certainly what I've seen, and I'm sure this is true elsewhere as well, we've seen nurseries closing down because the parents are actually taking the children out of those nurseries. I've got one in particular, there are kids from the ages of 6 to 12 years in there, and the parents are taking them out. They've got 30 staff there, catering for 200 children and no children to care for and the organisation, at this stage, is unable to claim on their insurance for the ongoing payment of those staff wages. Is there any advice that we can give to people in that situation at this stage?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. As you say, many of these settings are businesses—people's businesses and they play a hugely important role and it's a very worrying time for them. We have said that we will continue to pay for childcare, delivered under the childcare offer even when a child is unable, or a parent is unwilling, to take up that place. So, if that setting is receiving a childcare payment from the Welsh Government as part of our childcare offer, that will be paid, regardless of whether that child attends or not. And I know that we're also working with local authorities to ensure a similar position on Flying Start childcare and early education. So, that payment will be made, regardless of whether a child is attending. It's also important that childcare settings will be able to apply for the various packages of support that are being made available by my colleague, Ken Skates.
Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin, then Janet.
Hefin David AM: Yes, I'd just like to turn that around from the parents' point of view. With schools closing, there are a lot of parents then losing 10 hours of free childcare, but from a settings point of view, they'll continue to be able to receive, for the time being, the nursery care.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, so the decision that has been taken by my colleague, Julie Morgan, is that settings should stay open at the moment unless public health changes. That's being kept under constant review on public health. Again, the issue is that we know that that childcare is vital to many families, especially—and we're particularly concerned about those individuals who are trying to help us overcome and solve these problems. If you have any specific questions about that, we'll be happy to take them back to Julie Morgan.
Lynne Neagle AM: Janet.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Is this the Cylch question?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, please.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Sorry, thank you. Yes, just basically, Cylch Meithrin, there are concerns—[Interruption.]
Lynne Neagle AM: We've lost Janet. We'll come back to her.
Kirsty Williams AM: I think if the issue is about funding for Cylch Meithrin, these are not normal circumstances. As a Welsh Government, we will take every step to provide continuity of funding, if at all possible. We will overcome this, and when we overcome this situation we find ourselves in, we will need those childcare settings, we will need those private businesses and we will need our Cylch Meithrin to be there to respond and to be able to go on doing the job that they usually do for us. And if there is any way that we can, as a Government, ensure that that happens by carrying on funding things, even if they are not able to run, all usual—[Inaudible.]— around service-level agreements are off. I'm not setting the precedent—let me make that absolutely clear. [Laughter.] But, you know, we will not undermine businesses and voluntary provision like Cylch by withdrawing Welsh Government funding. I hope I've been clear.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you for that.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Kirsty.
Lynne Neagle AM: If we can move on to talk about exams, obviously you made the announcement yesterday. I completely understand that everything is a very fast-moving situation, but, as you know, there are a lot of questions that people have about young people who've put a lot of work in. Are you able to tell us any more today? In particular, have you got any idea about timescales now for setting out what the approach will be to handling the lack of summer exams?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, it is a devastating decision to have to have been taken, but I have done so on the very, very clear and unambiguous advice from Qualifications Wales. I met with Qualifications Wales and the WJEC yesterday. What was most important to them was that I made an early decision and I did not equivocate on what would happen for the exams. I was able to make an informal decision at that meeting, and then, of course, there is a formal process that we have to go through. That, now, allows Qualifications Wales and the exam board to operationalise that decision, and they will be communicating with schools as quickly as possible about what schools will need to do to ensure that the systems that they will now put in place can work. We are trying, as far as we can, as I understand it, to be able to mirror as closely as possible the usual results day, for instance. It might not be possible, because, of course, we're dealing with a situation that requires human beings to be involved in it, and those human beings could find themselves unwell. So, our best attempts will be to maintain the normal rhythm of an exams day in August, but that has to be caveated by the fact that we're dealing with difficult circumstances. But, the WJEC and Qualifications Wales will be making urgent communications to exam centres to explain what will need to happen next.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Janet, you had a question on this.
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, I think I raised it yesterday, Kirsty, but you were receiving loads of questions. I'd just ask for some further clarification about coursework, because only 30 per cent of that is done. Years 11 and 13, typically, in my case they're what's been raised with me—do you have any advice for them?
Kirsty Williams AM: Okay, so, all exams are cancelled, but year 11 and year 13 will be given a grade—I think that's a distinction that people need to be aware of. That is because those years and those grades are gateway qualifications, and they are points of movement in the education system. So, it's really important for those students that they are not disadvantaged in any way by not being able to receive a grade that helps them to make a decision as a qualifying step into what they will do next, whether that be university, whether that be a degree apprenticeship or whether that be going into sixth form, into a college, into an apprenticeship or into some work-based learning opportunities. That's why we have to focus on those children, because for them, it is absolutely critical that we do. We are at an advantage in Wales, can I say? Because of the nature of our examination system, those students already have a lot of externally assessed work that we can use as a basis to move forward on. Because we've kept our AS-levels, we have got that data. Because we have a GCSE system—. Our year 11s, if they're doing triple science, they've already done 40 per cent of their paper, so we're very fortunate. Because of the structures that we have got in our qualification system, there is already lots and lots of externally-verified work that we can use, alongside, potentially, teacher evaluation of students as well. And I think that's really important. We’re starting from a better base than simply having none of that externally-verified data. What will also be important is that these children have confidence in those qualifications, and so we will be looking at a modulated arrangement within Wales, and I know that Qualifications Wales are discussing with their counterparts across the UK a modulated system across the UK. So, actually, we can make sure that our standards are maintained by actually having that modulation across the UK. So, we know that those children never have to worry about the rigour that has gone into determining that grade. So, they can have real confidence.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Helen Mary.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you. A supplementary question that might feed into that moderation. You'll know that the National Union of Students has suggested that black and minority ethnic children and children from the working class, on the whole, don't do as well, in terms of their assessment by their own teachers. I don't know what their evidence is for that. We also know, of course, that boys tend to do better in exams, and girls tend to do better at coursework, for whatever reason that is. So, just to ask you at this early stage to build in those considerations around potential unconscious bias into that overall system that you're talking about. And, of course, you are right to say that, because we have got some elements of external moderation here, those factors may be less for us in Wales than they might for colleagues in England.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, I think we are starting at a different base, thank goodness. So, you're quite right. As I said, students will have done unit 1 papers last year if they're GCSE students. Dare I say it, some might even have done early entry. So, we still have elements of coursework that are externally verified. So, children might well have done lots of oral exams in their English and in their Welsh language. So, we have lots of pieces of work that will have been externally verified. I certainly will ensure that these concerns are passed on. I'm sure that Qualifications Wales are thinking about it. I have every confidence that they and the WJEC will come up with a very comprehensive way of establishing those grades, but I have to say, in some ways, I have to step back now, because you would not expect me, in normal circumstances, to dictate to the WJEC how much percentage goes for that, and how much percentage is allocated for that; that would not be appropriate for a Minister. My job is to make the decision on the examinations on the basis of having confidence that what can be put in place is fair and is equitable, and I have confidence that that will be the case.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy.
Suzy Davies AM: A few things from me. One is, obviously, pupils are being asked to work at home as well now, some of whom will be doing GCSE and A-level courses. So, there's just a question, generally, from me— because we're encouraging these kids to carry on working—how that will be accommodated by Qualifications Wales, I guess, in this modulation process. It may be that your at-home work will be of a higher standard or a lower standard than a teacher would be expecting. Secondly, you mentioned the AS-levels, of course, as being of value at the moment, but we've got people in Year 12 who now won't be doing their ASs. Is there any steer at this stage about what they will be expected to do? Will they be doing two sets of exams next year, for example? Or is AS just off the table? In which case, how are the A2s going to be calculated in due course? And then, finally from me, we do have some vocational qualifications that are up for examination as well—your BTECs, and I think it's the Association of Accounting Technicians, which is a lot of computer-based learning—which is due to be examined within three weeks. Those aren’t A-levels or GCSEs. I appreciate that you may not have the answer just at the moment, but are they off as well is the question, I guess?
Kirsty Williams AM: With regard to AS-levels—no final decision has been made for exactly how those students will be treated. There are a range of options that could be used, but again, we will want to be thinking about student well-being, fairness and equity in that regard, and I will update Members as soon as I have received definitive advice from Qualifications Wales around that, and that hasn't happened yet. With regard to other types of qualifications, as you will be aware, the vast majority of BTECs is a modular, continually-assessed piece of work, and we would have every expectation that BTECs will be able to be awarded, but clearly, those conversations are with awarding bodies—they tend to be UK awarding bodies, rather then necessarily our WJEC exam board—and those conversations are ongoing. But I have every expectation that those qualifications will be awarded and, of course, because of their nature there's even more evidence of continued assessment. Huw, I don't know if there's anything else that you would like to add about those types of qualifications.
Huw Morris: No. I think you've covered most of it. I don't have a definitive answer for the ATT qualification, but we can look into that and come back to you.
Suzy Davies AM: Well, I've just had a constituent ask, so that would be very helpful. And homeworking—
Kirsty Williams AM: Homeworking, right.
Suzy Davies AM: —is that going to count towards the assessments, overall assessments?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, potentially, as I said. I don't know the exact elements. What will be absolutely necessary is that Qualifications Wales and the WJEC will be able to give absolute clarity and simplicity around how those grades will be arrived at, because parents, teachers and students will want to know that, and my expectation is on them to be able to clearly communicate what elements will and will not be taken into consideration when awarding those grades.
Suzy Davies AM: That's great. At least we covered it. Thank you, Minister—thank you, Kirsty.
Lynne Neagle AM: And, just before we move on, have the universities across the UK indicated that they are content with this approach going forward—content to accept students on this basis?
Kirsty Williams AM: Certainly. There have been discussions with universities and UCAS, of course, that this also has a bearing on. One of the—. And the views of university and how university terms might be impacted is one of the ways and one of the reasons that we've factored in to making these decisions. Those discussions with universities are ongoing, aren't they, Huw?
Huw Morris: Yes. So, we've been in regular conversation with Universities Wales and through them with Universities UK and we've received every indication that the approach that's been adopted here has been welcomed by the institutions. Those conversations will continue as we work through the practicalities of how the gradings that are awarded are going to feed through into university admissions decisions and enrolment.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Well, we've got some questions now from Suzy on the potential closures of colleges and universities.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's a very general question, really. I appreciate you've already indicated there are lots of ongoing conversations, but my understanding is whether colleges or universities close is pretty much still at their own discretion. We're going to be asking some questions on emergency legislation shortly, which may impact on the answer you can give today, but what sort of conversations are you having with FE and HE at the moment about how they decide?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, you're absolutely right. As we often say in this committee, universities are autonomous institutions—a status that they guard jealously and we would never want to question. Universities have been making the decision to move as much of their learning online as they possibly can and we continue to have conversations with them. Colleges are in a similar position, looking to do as much as they can to be able to provide continuity of learning via distance learning methods, and the Bill, potentially, does give us more powers of intervention in both the FE and the HE sector.
Suzy Davies AM: I might ask you about that in a minute, because I don't even know what the Bill says yet.
Kirsty Williams AM: Huw, I don't know if there's anything you want to add.
Huw Morris: No—just to confirm what's been said and also to add in that independent training providers, similarly autonomous, like colleges and universities, have been moving in the same direction. We've been very impressed with the maturity and forward-planning that's been adopted by all of those institutions and their representative bodies. We've got consistency in the approach and a common desire, and investment in moving towards online support for students.
Suzy Davies AM: And there's still this safety net idea. Certainly, colleges have indicated, as with schools, that, for the most vulnerable learners, they'll have something in place that might permit attendance on an individual basis.
Huw Morris: That's my understanding, yes, and, again, we've been in regular conversation with them about that. My understanding is that they're going to spend the next week working through the detail of how that will work for the institutions.
Suzy Davies AM: That's fair enough. And, presumably, education maintenance allowance will still be paid.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Arrangements have been made to ensure that EMA continues to be paid to all students who are entitled.
Suzy Davies AM: That's right. You indicated that any Welsh Government support's going to stay, whatever the circumstances are—in your portfolio.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. I'm doing my best, but it's an absolute yes on the EMA. There will be no disruption to EMA.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. You might get some further questions on HE and FE.
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes. We've got some further questions, indeed, from Helen Mary and then Hefin.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Now or in a bit?
Lynne Neagle AM: Yes.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Just further to EMA, of course, at the moment, that has an attendance qualification, doesn't it? And you don't get your EMA if you don't turn up. Should we take from your last answer that that attendance qualification doesn't apply anymore?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. They can't turn up if the institution is not open, and that's not their fault.
Helen Mary Jones AM: No, but that is something that's been a worry, so that's really encouraging to hear. Thinking about students in higher education, can you give an assurance that student maintenance payments will continue as normal? Is that the intention?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That's really good to hear. And have you given any special ministerial instruction to Student Finance Wales on processing applications for support or changes of circumstances, or is that something that's kind of ongoing at the moment?
Kirsty Williams AM: Those conversations are ongoing with the Student Loans Company. As I said, we anticipate no disruption to—. We don't anticipate any change in the approach to students as a result of this. Individual student circumstances could well change and our expectation would be that the Student Loans Company would respond to that. All I would say is, just to remind people: people who work for the Student Loans Company are no more able to resist this disease than anybody else. There will undoubtedly in some cases be really practical challenges to service delivery, simply because organisations could be losing staff because of illness or the need to self-isolate or because they are reacting to social-distancing messages from the Government. So, I think we just need to bear that in mind: that these organisations are doing their best, but, if they are badly affected by staff numbers being off because of the virus, then I hope people will give them due consideration.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Yes, that makes sense, of course, because we've been told that universities won't be able to entirely close, because there will be students who can't go home—
Kirsty Williams AM: It is their home.
Helen Mary Jones AM: —overseas students, for example. What discussions have you been having with the sector to make sure that those students' basic needs are met, that there's still food, shelter, whatever they need?
Kirsty Williams AM: Well, obviously, universities have a duty of care to those students that find themselves in those circumstances, and every conversation that Huw's been having would suggest that universities are well aware of their need to do that.
Huw Morris: We instituted a monitoring process very early on in the onset of the disease, not least because a number of institutions have campuses and activities in China and other parts of south-east Asia. And so, as the disease has progressed, we've seen lessons being learned from the support for students who are in isolation coming from there to the UK, and I am assured that the universities here in Wales have got processes in place that support those learners.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That's really helpful. And on this specifically—last question from me— have you considered whether students might need to be refunded some of their tuition fees, should the academic year not be completed?
Huw Morris: So, as the institutions move more and more of their material and some of their assessment online, clearly, there are lessons that will need to be taken on board. There are established quality assurance and enhancement procedures in institutions to enable the tutors and other supporters to make sure that that material meets their needs. The intention in all of these institutions is that they will complete their course of study. There are appeals mechanisms and feedback mechanisms through the students union and through course committees and other things within institutions to make sure that any concerns or incomplete work are addressed. Failing those institutional mechanisms, there is a UK-wide system through the Office of the Independent Adjudicator for students to take forward any concerns that they have. So, we're confident that that system will be robust and will make sure that the students are getting a course of learning that meets their needs.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Suzy, you had a supplementary.
Suzy Davies AM: No, Mr Morris has answered my question.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. We've got a couple more questions now on vulnerable learners. I've got Helen Mary, then Hefin.
Helen Mary Jones AM: I think, Chair, the Minister has already answered what the—. But thinking just a little bit more broadly about the mental health and well-being of staff and learners across a range of educational settings, or, indeed, young people who can't access educational settings, what considerations are you giving to how that mental health and well-being might be supported through what is an incredibly difficult time for everyone?
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, that is correct. So, our expectation would be that during a prolonged period of closure—which I think, if we're honest, we have to acknowledge is what we're looking at—we would expect school staff—well-being staff, for instance in school—to be doing check-ins—phone check-ins, potentially, or FaceTime check-ins, with students, just to keep in touch with them as we go forward. We'll be looking to promote amongst young people a range of online facilities that are available—so, for instance, Meic website—so, looking to use a variety of platforms. We do, of course, have the formal NHS counselling services. I'm concerned, of course, that for some children their access to their counsellor is via their school. We know that, and we're just double checking the capacity of online counselling that already exists—online counselling tools that children already use because they don't want to go to the counsellor in the school and be seen in the school corridor going to the counsellor. They're already using those online methods and we expect to be able to continue, as far as possible, those kinds of mechanisms where children can have their mental health needs and their questions answered, and their worries. I think we have to remember that this is a really worrying time for children and young people. One of the reasons, again, that we wanted to keep schools going as long as possible—and teachers have been working so hard to do that—is because that routine of going into school and that normality is one that we've needed and wanted to maintain. Children will have worries about their own health; they'll have worries about the health of their parents and their grandparents; they will be consuming potentially media and news stories that have empty supermarket shelves. So, we need to understand, and I think we will also have to recognise, that this support will have to be ongoing once we're back to normal, and we will have to continue to look to support children in the longer term who will have lived through this experience. They are incredibly resilient, and they have been the champions of some of our public health messages. They are so much better and so much more compliant on the whole 'washing your hands' and things like that than even adults have been. So, they are incredibly resilient, but we also have to recognise that it can be a really worrying time for them.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Can I just—? Just a supplementary to that—you've mentioned already, Kirsty, the importance of youth services, and, particularly thinking voluntarily youth services, you've given the commitment, when were talking about Mudiad Ysgolion Meithrin earlier, that services that are part-funded by grants through the Welsh Government, for example, thinking of the national youth voluntary service—will those be able to be maintained even if settings have had to be shut as well? Obviously, local authorities will have to make their own decisions about whether youth settings are kept open, but, in terms of the direct support from Welsh Government, can organisations that receive it rely on that through this time?
Kirsty Williams AM: No formal decision has been made, but if people are in receipt of a Government grant from my department to run a service and that service can no longer run because of the public—
Helen Mary Jones AM: Because it's not safe.
Kirsty Williams AM: —because it's not safe to do so, I do not foresee that we will be turning around and saying, 'We'll have our money back, thank you very much.'
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you.
Helen Mary Jones AM: That will make a lot of people happy, thank you. [Laughter.]
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, we are facing unprecedented circumstances. The normal rules of engagement have to change and, those organisations, we'll need them to be providing youth services for children when we are back to normal, and we wouldn't want to do anything that would undermine their ability to do that. Our call to the youth service is a call to arms, though. When we're trying to maintain services for vulnerable children and for front-line staff children, they have a valuable role to play and I know that local government and the Council for Wales of Voluntary Youth Services are already in discussion about how youth services—. Many of our youth services work on an outreach basis. Those traditional youth clubs, because of austerity, are not necessarily there anymore, so they are well used to being out and about and doing outreach work, and they will have an important part to play in the services that we talked about earlier.
Helen Mary Jones AM: Thank you.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Hefin, briefly, and then we're going to take one final question from Suzy on emergency legislation.
Hefin David AM: All right. I'll declare an interest as a parent of a child with additional learning needs, although the question I'm about to ask doesn't reflect her interests. Additional learning needs pupils who are waiting outcomes of referrals—if they're currently waiting an outcome of a referral, will that process will be suspended or will it continue as normal? And, if it is suspended, will it pick up where it left off from this point?
Kirsty Williams AM: I think we have to recognise that the ability to deliver business as usual has been massively compromised. I'm sure people will try and continue to do their normal activities and their normal jobs, but that might not be possible. I will have to check that, Hefin, to be honest. I don't want to give you any false assurance if, actually, the intelligence on the ground is that that simply will not be able to happen. But we don't—
Hefin David AM: Can we have a clear line on that?
Kirsty Williams AM: We don't want to jeopardise anybody, but as I said, some of the normal services are simply not available as everybody turns their attention to trying to respond to the pandemic.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Final question—because I know that the Minister's got a lot of things that she needs to get on with—from Suzy on emergency legislation.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not going to ask you if you'll use any powers you get under the emergency legislation, but are you able to give us some indication of what they might be?
Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. For instance, the Bill will provide Welsh Ministers with powers to temporarily close schools or other educational institutions, childcare premises; powers to give temporary continuity direction—so, actually, the other way around, force things to be open—and to be able to direct resources. So, that includes, as I said, I could direct something to stay open if that institution was trying to close down. The powers also give flexibility to maybe be able to direct staff to other institutions that they would not normally work in, if that was part of our resilience needs. We'd also be looking at, for instance, relaxing requirements around ratios in childcare settings, or we might be wanting to do things around food. So, obviously, we have rules around the level of nutrition that schools should be giving their children. If there is a continuing role for schools in providing food, we might have to be a bit more flexible about what that might look like. So, those kinds of flexibilities—to be able to suspend things, direct things—that we would not normally have in normal circumstances.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. And just to finish this one off—you may not be able to answer this one, in all fairness—in those situations where it's the Government who says 'no' to various things, does that then help people in the situation of Dawn's nursery, and insurance claims suddenly become more likely?
Kirsty Williams AM: I'm not an expert on insurance, and I don't know if anybody here can help me. But what my understanding is, is that even where Government has given a direction that does not necessarily mean that you will be covered by your insurance. What we're finding in the private sector is that insurance companies are not paying out, because even when a Government has directed it, they do not regard this as a disruption to business. So, the insurance industry is not my area of expertise.
Suzy Davies AM: No, no, I accept that.
Kirsty Williams AM: It's not my area of expertise, but from what I understand from discussions around the Cabinet table, this is particularly problematic. Let me give you an example about how we've been trying to overcome some of this—it feels like an awfully long time ago now— you'll be aware that we gave directions earlier around cancellation of school trips abroad. Trying to make sure that that direction came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, rather than the Department for Education was a real battle, because again there were fears that, unless that advice came from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, insurance would not kick in, and that was a two-day discussion.
Suzy Davies AM: Okay. This is helpful to know, actually.
Kirsty Williams AM: So, these are the kinds of things that we're grappling with. But, as I said, thinking about it, that was only last week, but it feels like an aeon ago.
Suzy Davies AM: I'm not holding you to that, but it helps us manage the questions we get asked.
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, but as I said, insurance is not my area of expertise.
Suzy Davies AM: No, but thank you for answering.
Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Well, we've come to the end of our time. Can I thank you for attending this morning, and your officials? We do recognise what an incredibly challenging time this is, and we'd like to place on record our thanks to all of you for the work that you're doing to try and see us through this crisis. As usual, you'll be sent a transcript to check for accuracy following the meeting. Thank you again, all of you, for your attendance. Item 3, then, is a motion under Standing Order 17.42 to resolve to exclude the public for the remainder of the meeting. Are Members content? Thank you.


Marketing: Right first time this time . Nu There we go . It's not that complicated , but I get it wrong every time . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Okay so we are just waiting for Matthew {gap} .
Marketing: For Matthew , yep .
Project Manager: Mm . Uh {disfmarker} So I suggest we start the meeting uh without Matthew uh
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm 'kay .
Project Manager: he's uh obviously late for some reason . {vocalsound} Good . Um . Today uh we will uh talk about uh conceptual design . I hope uh you both did some uh some work uh concerning a uh conceptual design .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um this will be the uh agenda for the meeting uh {gap} . Uh I will take some minutes uh again .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Um we will have the presentations of y of you different team members ,
Marketing: Yep .
Industrial Designer: Yep .
Project Manager: and then try to come to decisions uh about the concepts uh you have presented . So and that uh will uh {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: we have some uh forty minutes uh to complete this uh .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So um who has the fir do you ha Anna do you have your presentation ready ?
Marketing: I have a presentation , I'm just making this {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah I think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah the {disfmarker} Matthew it is it's important that Matthew yeah is here
Project Manager: Okay . Ah
Industrial Designer: because it's really a a team uh project with a team
Project Manager: there is Matthew .
Industrial Designer: and if someone is not here then we cannot {disfmarker}
User Interface: Sorry .
Industrial Designer: but it's okay {vocalsound} it's good . {vocalsound}
Marketing: Okay I'll just email you this file , my presentation .
Project Manager: So . Good . Do {gap} presentation ready ?
Marketing: Mm-hmm I'm just emailing it to you .
Project Manager: Oh okay .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Project Manager: So did you manage uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Yeah I sent you the slides , you didn't see them ?
Project Manager: Oh yes I see him , good yes .
User Interface: Okay . {gap} .
Project Manager: No .
User Interface: {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} 'Kay .
Marketing: Okay it should've gone through to you .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Okay mm yes I have it .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm-hmm . Okay so this is just a presentation on uh the trends that we're gonna use to make the product stand out from the rest of the products out there at the moment . Um can I just put this on ? So we have to work out a way {disfmarker} what we can do with our product to make it stand out and make it so people wanna buy it . Um . This is {disfmarker} to do this I will not remove my microphone . {vocalsound} We basically used um some focus group surveys which I went through with you last time , the main results of that , and um some research on the current design um and fashion trends that are out there at the moment um ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: and as part of this {disfmarker} The important aspects that came out were things that we've already discussed really . The most important by far was the look and feel of it . It needs to be something that's very different from everything else out there . It needs to stand out {vocalsound} . It needs to be not functional like the rest of the things out there at the moment . Most people find remote controls boring at the moment , we need to have something that looks interesting , that looks exciting , that will stand out . People will wanna buy it . Um {disfmarker} That was twice as i important as the next item on here which is that it has to be technologically innovative {disfmarker} has to have something else , apart from just the look of it . People have to then think about it and say {gap} got something there that I want . That's a really cool feature , and it has to make them wanna buy it again . Third on the list , and again innovative was twice as important as this last um aspect , it has to be easy to use . So they have to be able to {disfmarker} be able to look at it and have some intuitive idea of how to use it um . Drawing on the fashion trends at the moment , uh fruit and vegetables um . This is basically talking about just the the feel of it , so probably not the smell of it , but the bright colours , um eye-catching , really bold designs , and a spongy feel .
User Interface: {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Um I had a talk to the design people about this , but having a remote that's tactile , that feels different , that would be really cool . That would make it stand out . Um .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: So can you repeat and be more precise about what you just said ?
Project Manager: Spongy feel ?
Industrial Designer: Uh about the feeling yeah uh yo
Marketing: Well
User Interface: {vocalsound} You can {disfmarker}
Marketing: ma make it not necessar sp spongy is the current thing . Spongy is the current texture , but basically there are no reports no remotes at the moment which are spongy or tactile at all , so if we make it like maybe furry or soft or something , that'll be something that sets it apart ,
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: rather than just bare plastic which they all are at the moment .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Okay .
Marketing: So as far as the design goes , the very most important aspect was the design , to the customers . So going with the fruit and vegetable idea , we've got the bright colours , so makes it stand out , the oranges and the the bright yellows and the florescent colours , part of the fruit and vegetables um . Going back to the idea of taking inspiration from mobile phones , they've all got those {disfmarker} a lot of them have the changeable covers , so they can choose what colour the outside is . That's one way of looking at it um . Textured feel we just talked about . Maybe it's another way of doing that .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: So if it's part of the the changeable covers then may maybe they can choose a different texture , a spongy one or a soft one or something like that . So they can choose it li as they want to to maybe {disfmarker} to fit in with their decor in their living room , or just what they like , their sports team or whatever .
Industrial Designer: Yeah that's a very good idea , yeah . Yeah .
Marketing: Um and yeah , still taking the inspiration from the mobile phone design so functionality , the way the mobile phones work , the way the keypad looks . Also just the way that a lot of industrial design is going into mobile phones at the moment . They're big selling items . People put a lot of thought into that so we can leverage off that , and we can start using some of their ideas . Um back to technological in in innovation , not quite as important , but still a big issue . Um we talked about having a way of finding a remote control if it's been lost , uh that's one thing we could look at . There are other aspects like L_C_D_ screens and speech recognition which weren't {disfmarker} I don't think , in my personal opinion , gonna be worth the extra expense and the extra effort that will go into them . I think we're better doing something basic like this
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: which is very important and very {disfmarker} will be a really cool feature to put in . And {disfmarker} {gap} use . I had no real specific ideas for this , maybe we just , the basic idea of having your core functions big and at the top maybe , by themselves ,
Project Manager: Mm . Yes well
Marketing: and then {disfmarker}
Project Manager: maybe Matthew can can give some more information on the {disfmarker}
Marketing: yeah
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: {disfmarker} and then th th the finer details of buttons you don't use as much either hidden away or completely separate .
Project Manager: Mm .
Marketing: Yep {vocalsound} and that's the presentation .
User Interface: Voila .
Project Manager: Okay good , that's very clear .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah very clear .
Project Manager: 'Kay . Um . Uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: So does anyone have any comments or ideas on that ? I think you {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Maybe we yes well we maybe {vocalsound} can decide later on um {vocalsound} the l the the look and feel of uh I've {disfmarker} it was a good idea maybe to to {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: To let the people choose , {gap} you mean ?
Project Manager: Yes the the the there are changeable covers ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: but on the other hand I I don't know whether my superiors would be so glad with it because {vocalsound} you have to introduce a complete uh uh new l line of uh of supplies
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: uh it would be uh very complicated uh organisational {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Well we're selling so many units of this . This is gonna be a mass marketed product , we can afford to have two or three different designs at least .
Project Manager: Hmm . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah a range of uh yeah , a set of three , four different aspects .
Marketing: Mm mm .
Project Manager: Yes . Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Sure that fits the {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes {gap} and of course it will be a we we get a {disfmarker} if it works we can get uh after-sales
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: I mean that would {gap} would be very good I mean those covers could go for for three , five Euro {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: That's a very good idea um {disfmarker} And then uh maybe uh we can go a th Matthew's presentation because
User Interface: Yeah
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: s
Project Manager: the {disfmarker}
User Interface: then we could discuss later like {disfmarker} we can put all ideas together .
Project Manager: Together indeed uh ,
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: It should be easier with that .
Project Manager: because you ma might have some some information on the the easy to use ,
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah I agree .
Marketing: Mm-hmm , yeah .
Project Manager: what you were already mentioning .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And your part is very related to mine
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: because when you suggest something then it has to be integrated inside .
User Interface: Yeah so {vocalsound} I'll I'll go with that actually
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: so um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Okay so m so {vocalsound} then the the idea of uh having a remote is generally you have uh different keys and uh different structures , different forms , and uh they could be like buttons and um they could be of uh a varying sizes if you want to to uh basically emphasize a particular key more than the other , and uh maybe like you can have different colours for example having the r red for the on off switching on and off the button . So this this is the general trend to ha the method they do . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: So what I have found was that uh currently uh the {gap} they are mostly that the T_V_ , V_C_R_ , music system operated ones actually , and they are very specific to each other , but there are some common keys for example if you want to follow the V_C_R_ and if you want to follow the uh g uh s some uh soundtrack on the w w see they have the common thing actually you can have
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: and uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} There is also um a speech recognition to store channel information , names , like {disfmarker} You can basically {disfmarker} if you have a multiple functionality , say T_V_ , V_C_R_ or something I say it to the T_V_ and the {gap} T_V_ , and you can programme the keys if you want to , certain keys are even the channel information {vocalsound} .
Marketing: Mm . Mm . I like the idea though of having speech recognition for like the n the name of a channel like B_B_C_ , rather than having to remember the the number of it on the keypad . That's a good idea .
User Interface: Yeah yeah so you you you can just uh because uh as more and more channels come then you have more and more problems to remember the v v exact channel numbers ex exactly ,
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: even if you arrange it by {disfmarker} however you arrange it , you still have the problem to remember exactly which channel you want to {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm . Mm . Yeah I really like that idea .
Industrial Designer: So what functionalities do you suggest for that ? For facing this problem ?
User Interface: So it it it's like it {gap} limited one . In the present market I saw it that says something like they are looking for {vocalsound} eighty word thing , eighty word ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: which shouldn't be th that difficult to implement , like eighty to hundred word . Basically you want you don't want to store all the channels in the remote control ,
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: you want to st store your favourite channel .
Marketing: Maybe ten channels , yeah at the most .
User Interface: Yeah some ten twelve channel information . You know you don't want to st store all the hundred channel information into that .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: And uh basically uh it depends like the remote with L_C_D_ display for browsing because you have multiple functionalities for example you are watching a movie , and uh uh you are {vocalsound} having a universal remote control and you want to uh you don't know really which functionality is {gap} now , so I am using the T_V_ so every time I use it , it could be like , for example I can use a simple toggle switch , and a display , so I press it so the display says , okay , I'm in T_V_ or D_V_D_ or whatever it is , instead of having three keys separately for four keys ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Oh yeah yeah yeah mm .
User Interface: to model the functionalities will increase actually ,
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
User Interface: and for you and you might want {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: you don't want separate keys for all of them . You can't . And uh well there can be children friendly where you can programme your remote so that they they are not allowed uh to browse certain channels which you can block them , and you can operate them . So these are the things presently which are seen in the market scenarios at present .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: I personally would look at {vocalsound} things like having a u universal remote , is uh um is a good idea , like instead of having {gap} unusual ones for all of them you can think of having , um with multiple functionality possibly with speech recognition .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: I got a mail from the the coffee machine interface unit that uh they have uh integrated the s speech recognition into a into the coffee machine ,
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}
Marketing: Mm b
User Interface: and so if you say hello coffee machine , it say hi Joe , or something like that , you know , and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: But a coffee machine , there's not too many words they'd be using with that it's a it's a small vocabulary .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah you you won't be using it , so it's a limited vocabulary mm thing , and very isolated word
Marketing: Mm . Mm .
User Interface: and it's uh it is interesting , and basically storing the channel through voice or other ways of programming your keys , on the display for the browsing
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: which is again {disfmarker} and maybe having something like a blinking thing , like uh it could indicate you're uh {disfmarker} it it could indicate what is cal like the uh whether uh you you have enough battery in your in your uh remote , the blinking .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: At the same time , if it's a dark room , it can be used to locate the remote also
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} or {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: And you want okay {disfmarker} for coming back to one point
Marketing: Two thirty five supposed to finish .
Industrial Designer: y you want to let the user to programming the keys ? Some of them ?
User Interface: Yeah you can let them to do that .
Industrial Designer: And uh isn't that too difficult for the {disfmarker} we want w I don't know if we still want the um R_C_ to be easy to use ,
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: that's the {gap} compromise .
User Interface: N no but the {disfmarker} if you give {disfmarker} it d depends on the easiness like the user how much effort he can put .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: Like for example uh I would like to store in certain way , so if you want to give the full freedom to the user
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: or you want to keep some constraints and let the user use it with that constraint .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Yeah . Mm . I think you can do it both ways .
User Interface: So it de
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: You can have it so it's easy {gap} they can pick it up and use it straight away without doing anythi without customizing it ,
Industrial Designer: A standard .
Marketing: or if they want to they have the option of using these extra features .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: Um yes but but I do {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: maybe you can {vocalsound} give a hand to us because I I'm not sure whether that that we can implement that for twelve Euro and fifty cents .
User Interface: {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: I'm sorry to have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Every time I have to come down on this price again
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: to {vocalsound} so this might be a little limiting for your creativity ,
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: but it's it's it's the real {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We have to consider it . S so {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: do we think these ideas {vocalsound} an and my uh sp speech recognition , I mean maybe it's possible for for twelve Euro but then then it will be at cost of other functionality we might implement like the uh uh the the the furry uh {vocalsound} uh case of the {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm . Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm yeah like {vocalsound} I would say that for programming uh keys , you said , uh it could be uh easily uh done within the the package of twel twelve Euros ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: but for the A_S_R_ system , uh I'm not sure if it's feasible to have this
User Interface: We well we can still look at {disfmarker} we can talk with the coffee unit
Industrial Designer: We {vocalsound}
User Interface: and you can uh check how much how much they {disfmarker} {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Exactly yeah i if if it's a low vocabulary it's already implemented ,
User Interface: yeah yeah
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: yeah .
Industrial Designer: and w how much it's cost , maybe with a f cheap chip .
User Interface: Maybe we can come {vocalsound} we we can talk to them , and we can come with that ,
Project Manager: Mm mm .
User Interface: you know .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: And also well you can think of having uh since you have a {disfmarker} you know something {gap} maybe if you added little bit of {gap} display , you might need the {disfmarker} to che keep checking the battery , so you really need a some {vocalsound} kind of indicator ,
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: so it could be a blinking option of L_E_D_ {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Hmm .
User Interface: it could actually be used to detect also .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: If it's in a dark room you can basically detect it also .
Marketing: Mm . Hmm .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound} .
Marketing: I like the idea too of being able to use the remote in the dark ,
Project Manager: Mm .
User Interface: So {disfmarker}
Marketing: so either having the buttons so you can feel the difference between them or if they if they light up or something .
User Interface: No actually {vocalsound} i if i it is like {disfmarker} you know it tells you um , it can be for two purposes ,
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: like if you have an L_C_D_ display and all those things it's not going to be the standard remote ,
Marketing: Mm . Hmm .
User Interface: which is having uh which need just uh six six volt uh th sorry three volts um of D_C_ .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: It may need more actually , so y you you may need to check your battery usage it {disfmarker} and then you need that , some functionality to indicate the battery limit .
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: And then if the battery limit is indicated , if it could be ind indicated through a blinking something
Industrial Designer: It's true .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: and it can change the colour depending on your uh {disfmarker} how much is the battery , well that is good enough to even locate even if you want to .
Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: You know .
Project Manager: 'Kay good .
Industrial Designer: {gap} .
User Interface: Yeah so {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: I don't know how if if I have time to talk about the {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Mm yes um I would {disfmarker}
User Interface: You you have time some more ? Yep .
Project Manager: Yes yes you can you can still . We have time .
Marketing: {vocalsound}
User Interface: {vocalsound} Sure you can you know {vocalsound} .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay . So what I'm gonna present here is very uh um yeah basic knowledge about the all the the components that are inside a a R_C_ a remote control , and how is it manufactured h what is the process , just to explain you .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So the method is {disfmarker} ther there is a a set of components in a in a remote control like {gap} , and uh what cost {disfmarker} the the components in themself do not cost a lot but the the way to assemble everything costs obviously , and I will uh show you my preferences uh uh at the end . So there are two uh different types of uh um {disfmarker} Two different ways of using the the components for making a a remote control .
Project Manager: Nice . {vocalsound}
User Interface: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: Uh the basic way is to use a an integrated circuit and some uh transistors with an {gap} that aims at communicating uh uh the message and to to send the message to the um to the led that will uh transmit to the receiver . And uh yeah the other components and the circuit board {gap} buttons , infrared {vocalsound} , led , etcetera , for the components um . So you {gap} finding , just to say that the chip can detect uh when a key is pressed , and then it translate to the key , to a sequence , something like morse code , as you know , uh with a different sequence for each key ,
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and uh uh that's , with the components we will use , we will have different uh messages , different sequences , and the chips sends that signal signal to the transistor that amplify to make it stronger um . So electronic parts are assembled onto uh printed boards uh because it's easier to mass produce and assemble . And uh so I think {vocalsound} for our design we want some b uh programmable uh you know V_ V_L_S_I_ or F_P_G_A_ uh high technology ,
User Interface: Yeah mm mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and this is important , and also we'll use uh yeah like in any uh high-tech uh devices a chip of fi fibreglass to {gap} them and connect them .
User Interface: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So my personal design {vocalsound} we need to find a solution what um what is the material of the cover we want to use . If it's plastic
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: or you said that yeah you had some ideas uh like fruit , veg or {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Well well
Industrial Designer: I dunno . {vocalsound}
Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}
Project Manager: m m maybe m maybe we can give the uh the uh the case a very uh uh normal a v very normal case but , with the changeable covers to fancy it up .
Industrial Designer: Yes . Yes .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: So like a normal cheap plastic case which can be covered up in , for instance , a wooden case .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
Marketing: Mm just have a yeah {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah like they do in with cars I think . Yeah inside the car
Marketing: Just the veneer on it , yeah .
Industrial Designer: yeah . So they also emailed me that uh they have {vocalsound} available a bunch of different buttons , a scroll wheels , integrated push buttons s such as a {gap} computer mouse . And uh very cheap L_C_D_s , so liquid crystal displays ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: so I'm wondering , I think we might be able to integrate L_C_D_ into our R_C_ . And the final point okay is um we have {disfmarker} yeah there are some uh compromise to to do .
Marketing: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: So we have to know that the push button requires a simple chip , but the scroll wheel uh and that kind of higher high-tech stuff needs more money um which is a higher price range alright . And the display requires an advanced chip , which in turns is more expensive than the regular chip , but {vocalsound} I think uh with twelve Euros um and if it's uh uh made for mm four million uh items , then I think w we could be able to handle that .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: So to {vocalsound} to sum up um we need {vocalsound} yeah so I I just said that the components uh the list of components uh has to be uh yeah listed and um and um assembly is a an important process that has to be taken into account . And uh for the designing of the cove uh uh cover layout then it's better to to to maybe see that with uh the the U_R_ exp U_R_I_ Expert
User Interface: Sorry .
Marketing: Mm .
Industrial Designer: so that we can {disfmarker} it's really a team-working uh . So
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: I I cannot design something without your agreement ,
Project Manager: No of course .
User Interface: Yeah so
Industrial Designer: right ?
User Interface: of course for example uh I wanted to know like if you want to have a a fo if you want to have the L_C_D_ display over there ,
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: or if you want to store a programmes with a keys {disfmarker} What kind of things you'll need inside your thin inside {disfmarker} W wh what {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah it's kind of um simple {gap} pro progra programmable device , and we have to insert .
User Interface: W what {disfmarker} Okay . Okay .
Industrial Designer: I think we could insert one that could underlie several functions
User Interface: Okay so
Industrial Designer: of {disfmarker}
User Interface: in that case you can even look at the technology what the mobile phone is trying to use with the {gap} card .
Industrial Designer: Exactly yeah , for customizing and yeah .
User Interface: Yeah where they do all the wi with with them actually . How f cost effective it would be to put that car chip into it and do the programmable things .
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Project Manager: So {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah good idea .
Project Manager: So I f I think we we should come to some decisions now uh a about this .
Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}
Project Manager: Um so I understand uh when we want a display we need a expensive chip , but when we want a scrolling wheel w we also need the expensive chip , so can we use same chip , so with one expensive chip we can uh implement several complicated uh or advanced features .
Industrial Designer: Exactly yeah that's a very good idea ,
Project Manager: Yes .
Industrial Designer: we could have uh one main chip uh that could handle , uh it's called F_P_G_A_ chip , that could handle both uh like scrolling wheels as well as uh L_C_D_
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: and
Project Manager: So
Industrial Designer: yeah .
Project Manager: when the more expensive chip you mentioned there is is possible in the in the given budget , uh maybe we should go for for the more expensive chip , so all features uh which you mentioned can be implemented based on the same chip .
Industrial Designer: Yes .
User Interface: D well {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do you think that's feasible ?
User Interface: Well I don't know if it'll fit into our cost of twelve point five Euro you know .
Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} You th you think it's possible .
User Interface: Is it possible to fit in to that ?
Industrial Designer: Yeah also thinking , I think both uh {disfmarker} if we had a budget of twenty twenty uh Euros , it will be okay ,
User Interface: Sorry .
Project Manager: Hmm .
Industrial Designer: but uh {disfmarker} {gap} .
Marketing: Well maybe we need specific costings then . Actually do maybe two designs and then cost them out and see which one is gonna fit in our budget better .
Project Manager: Mm yes
Industrial Designer: Yeah that's an excellent idea .
Project Manager: wh when you make a {vocalsound} a design ca you can {vocalsound} {disfmarker} next meeting you can give an quite an exact cost price .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah . Yeah
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: That w that would be a very good idea .
Industrial Designer: because right now I don't have {gap} price in in head
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: but for next meeting I'm sure yeah be able to do that .
Project Manager: Good good .
User Interface: Yeah that's uh that's something which I wanted to ask you also , like what will be the each individually the cost of it . For example if f if you want to put wood {disfmarker} I wouldn't suggest for wood
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: uh {gap} 'cause it's {disfmarker} I think it's m much easier to use a plastic or a rubber {gap} rather than wood .
Industrial Designer: Okay . I agree on that . Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: It will be much ch much expensive th though it's the most natural thing , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Yes but I can I think uh I think we can just use more cheap plastic for a kind of basic edition , and then people can fancy it up with with more expensive materials
Marketing: Hmm .
User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah
Project Manager: which which come with a with another price .
User Interface: it's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah we we can give a preference to them , but it is {gap} but with plastic or the rubber or whatever it is {disfmarker} it's much better with that rather than going for {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Do do you agree ?
Marketing: Mm yeah sure .
Industrial Designer: Yeah but i it's a detailed uh yeah yeah uh plastic versus uh wood ,
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and we need maybe to centre our description on uh the the really the what buttons what uh functionality we want to offer to the user , and maybe with uh {vocalsound} graphs or I don't know uh {disfmarker} {gap}
User Interface: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: User Interface Designer you could maybe uh help us on that .
Project Manager: Ma I I think uh for next meeting we c {vocalsound} you two can present a real design . Uh so drawing it on the board .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: Yea
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: Okay .
Industrial Designer: Perfect yeah .
Project Manager: And then we now sh only have to t to decide the general function uh . So um {disfmarker} Let let's say next meeting w {vocalsound} you produce two designs , one one one less advanced and one more advanced and with the cost price .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah sure . Yeah we will uh {disfmarker} Yeah .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Uh furthermore we go for the for the uh basic plastic case
User Interface: Uh .
Project Manager: which can be later uh fancied up with uh with addit uh additional uh , how do you call them , these like like mobile telephones you can put a cover over it .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: But that that that that can be done later .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: We now can concentrate on the on the basic remote control .
User Interface: {gap} .
Industrial Designer: Yeah customized .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Um .
User Interface: Okay {vocalsound} {gap} . We can give them smooth keys , you know . Smooth keys with bigger s uh {disfmarker} So that you know {disfmarker} The the problem most of the time we've seen , the keys is that it's small ,
Project Manager: Mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
User Interface: and every time we have to be very {disfmarker} but if i the {disfmarker} if we if we go to a different ways of designing those keys , then you can merge them together
Marketing: So is there any of these that you're looking at particularly
User Interface: to {disfmarker}
Marketing: or is this just ideas ?
User Interface: Oh you can actually , for example , if you see , they are they are they are quite small over here ,
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: and uh {vocalsound} now you can , for example , as I was {gap} if you make them big , it may change the look of the thing also to the people .
Marketing: Hmm . Mm . Mm .
Project Manager: Mm-hmm .
User Interface: At the same time , it is m more uh like it would be more interesting for people who are having this R_S_I_ and all {gap} problem .
Marketing: Mm yeah .
Project Manager: Yes yes yes bi big keys is is good thing I think .
User Interface: Uh big keys may better {gap} for them actually and uh {disfmarker}
Marketing: You see ?
Industrial Designer: I agree yeah ,
Marketing: Yeah .
Industrial Designer: and not too m too many keys of course yeah .
Marketing: Mm well
Project Manager: No no .
Marketing: one I've had before , a r r remote control we have at home is one that's actually got a cover on the bottom
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: so the bottom bit is just , covers half the keys most of the time , and then you can slide the cover back to get to the the more advanced keys .
Project Manager: Mm mm mm .
User Interface: Yeah .
Project Manager: Mm w but then you have still have uh when you don't {gap} use it you have such a a an extent of your remote control
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: which you don't use . So maybe it's possible uh , I don't know whether you can can indicate this , that you can elsewhere open your remote control and on the inside are uh buttons you don't use that much .
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Marketing: Mm . Yeah . Um yeah I've seen that before too . Anoth another like b
User Interface: Yeah .
Marketing: it flips up and then you've got another layer of buttons underneath .
Project Manager: Yes .
User Interface: Yes . Yeah so it's something like this , the model here
Marketing: Mm .
User Interface: s {gap} you can put the keys {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Mm .
Marketing: But I've seen also with keys and buttons on the top of here as well .
Industrial Designer: That's what you mean ?
Project Manager: Yes I I th that's what I mean
User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .
Project Manager: so I mean something like like a book .
Marketing: I like this one . I like the shape of this one .
User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .
Marketing: Can we have {disfmarker} can we think about maybe having a a non-recta non non-rectangular one , so with not just the straight little box
Industrial Designer: Yeah I like also this one .
Marketing: that's a {disfmarker} maybe curved or something .
User Interface: Yeah , mm .
Industrial Designer: Yeah , the point is w maybe we need to also to make a decision on how how how big we want to be and how many buttons like n we should {vocalsound} dec decide numbers or {disfmarker}
Marketing: Mm mm 'kay . Is this for the next meeting though ?
User Interface: We should make a {disfmarker}
Marketing: I think we might be out of time out of time for this meeting .
Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm .
User Interface: Yeah that {disfmarker} yeah next meeting we should be {vocalsound} {disfmarker}
Project Manager: Ju just make two designs ,
Industrial Designer: Okay .
User Interface: Yeah that would depend upon us actually .
Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah yeah .
Project Manager: and the we we can decide decide between th those designs .
Marketing: Yep .
User Interface: Yeah okay .
Project Manager: I think that would be a good idea . So
Industrial Designer: Perfect .
Project Manager: anyone uh any questions for now ?
User Interface: {vocalsound} No no . I don't have .
Marketing: No . So is this {disfmarker} is there anything else I need to do from a marketing point of view for the next meeting ?
Project Manager: Um yes I come to that uh uh {disfmarker}
User Interface: Maybe it would be interesting if you could look um for the cost inventories of other devices , if you're using speech recognition or something like that .
Project Manager: Yes well m maybe uh , I don't know whether that's possible ,
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: maybe you can start evaluating uh their work somehow .
Marketing: Okay well is this {vocalsound} me designing a way to evaluate it so {disfmarker} Thinking about how to set up test groups and things ?
Project Manager: {vocalsound} I don't know whether that's possible uh in the given time
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: but a as far as possible .
Marketing: Okay . Yep .
Project Manager: So uh you two will be together w working on a o on two prototypes
Industrial Designer: Exactly .
User Interface: Mm . {vocalsound}
Industrial Designer: Yeah .
Project Manager: and further instructions will be uh will be sent to you by uh by email .
Industrial Designer: Two or three prototypes ?
User Interface: Two .
Project Manager: Two .
User Interface: One for like cost and the one with like higher-end
Industrial Designer: Two ?
Project Manager: I {disfmarker}
Industrial Designer: Okay .
Marketing: Mm .
Project Manager: Mm {gap} and then {disfmarker}
User Interface: so that then we can be easily comparing them
Industrial Designer: Yeah
Project Manager: Hmm . {vocalsound}
User Interface: or you know find a compromise between both of them ,
Industrial Designer: and find maybe a compromise .
Marketing: Hmm .
Project Manager: Yes okay .
User Interface: yeah that's how it is .
Marketing: Mm-hmm .
Industrial Designer: Perfect yeah .
User Interface: Yep .
Project Manager: Okay let's call this to an end .
Marketing: Mm 'kay .
User Interface: Okay .
Marketing: Thanks guys .
Industrial Designer: Thanks .
User Interface: So we are done for now . {gap} .