text:
War at Khao San
Nicholas Day, Guest Contributor - 11 Apr, 2010
Everything looked like the government had finally decided to use force and have a crackdown on the red-shirts. Having not much else to do and deciding that we wanted to see something interesting Emma and me decided to head out to Rajaprasong to see what was happening. Having waited for the bus which was obviously not running we tried to get some taxis but they were not heading there even though we just mentioned that we wanted to go to Pantip Plaza (Actually did want to get a portable hard-drive so actually did want to go to Pantip). Having given up on heading to Rajaprasong we decided to head down to Rajadamern instead and just see what was going on. Had heard that there was a crack down earlier in the day and expected that the red-shirts had dispersed. That was far from true. We managed to grab a taxi but the traffic was so bad, with Pinklao and Rama VIII bridge having been closed that we got off at Thewet and decided to walk the rest of the way.
Helicopters were circling overhead constantly scanning the situation from the air. We came straight down Sam Sen road and arrived at the end of Khao San road next to the police station and Wat Chanasongkram. A whole bunch of tourists were leading an exodus when we arrived, obviously desperate to find somewhere slightly safer to go. Khao San road itself was comparatively barren compared to what it would have been like on a normal Saturday afternoon. Walked on further and arrived at Pinklao Bridge which had been blocked off with some cars and trucks and a contingent of red-shirt guards and other hangers-on. Was taking a picture and starting chatting to a Khun Lung guy dressed with a long stick and a red bandanna. Asked him what was going on and he said that the red-shirts were still where they had been before and that it was perfectly fine to just walk down Rajadamnern.
We walked on down heading towards the imposing Democracy Monument but half way down something seemed odd. Lots of people were wearing cloths round their mouths and some were wearing goggles over their eyes. Suddenly it hit us, first it was just like a bad smell but then it hits your eyes and the back of your throat. The tear gas must only have been a small amount but it had a really strong effect. Eventually it seemed to pass and we continued on walking. We were just walking past the Kock Wua junction and there seemed to be a commotion.
Quite a lot of people were moving from the opposite side of the junction towards the Khao San road side. At first I assumed that people were trying to escape from something on that side but then realised that they were actually moving in to defend themselves from a contingent of riot-gear clad soldiers that were attempting to move in from the road that runs down past Khao San on the side of Burger King. Curious we moved in closer to see what was going on. There was a stand-off between the soldiers and the red-shirts. There was a lot of jeering from the red-shirts who as far as I could see were armed with either heart-clappers or long sticks. While I cannot confirm that none of the red-shirts were armed with any guns, I would be pretty certain that some were, but I certainly didn't see or hear anyone firing one.
Suddenly, the sound of guns being fired. There was a large number of guns going off at the same time and each gun firing several bullets in quick succession. These were obviously the soldier's guns and many of the red-shirts, to include Emma and I, made a hasty retreat. Whether the bullets were live or just blanks I do not know. If they were live then they must not have been fired into the crowd in that confined space or a large number of people would have been dead. We did not move back far, we didn't even get back onto Rajadamern road. People stopped their retreat and stayed on, although maybe at a slightly safer distance than before. People were saying that they were not real bullets. The people who did not move at all were the red-shirt guards who stayed right where they were at the front of their barricade. These guys must either be crazy or very determined and well disciplined, or maybe a bit of both.
Various things were being thrown at the soldiers such as bottles, rocks and even a flaming stick. In the small and crowded area at the end of the back-packers haven of Khao San road the atmosphere was tense. We stayed there for maybe about five minutes and we saw a number of the guards from the front of the barracade get dragged back as they had been injured. A farang wearing hippy style light-green clothing and with long hair and a beard shouted loudly to some people "GET ME MY SAMURAI SWORD!" and other rather dramatic phrases. Soon some ambulances arrived and some trucks from the volunteer ambulance teams. Some people were taken away. Then the soldiers fired again and seemed to be advancing so we beat a hasty retreat to the relative safety of Rajadamern road.
We moved further down the road towards Democracy Monument where a large number of people were. At first I didn't see them but there was another detachment of soldiers parked at the edge of the northern section of Dinsor road. They were sitting in trucks and Humvees and were belting out a song made by the King. They seemed to be at a stalemate with both sides pretty much just standing off against each other but with both sides making no real attempt to move further from their positions. Then it seemed to get more intense and the soldiers started up the engine on their truck.
We decided to make a move away from the area in case it erupted into something more violent. Walking across the road circling Democracy Monument the road seemed to be very slippery in places and it was hard to walk. A motorcyclist had slipped over previously and now I saw why. It was hard to tell if it was just wet or whether it was oil or something. We decided that we had had enough of the protest and decided to find a way to leave. I expected that if we could make it back up to Sanam Luang then there would probably be a way out through one of the many roads that led off the area and would certainly not all have been closed off. Although before we had moved far, I saw three or four tear-gas canisters hit the ground across the road from us. They seemed to fall onto the roof of a fairly low lying building. We rushed to move up the road but soon the gas hit our eyes and mouth and it completely incapacitated us. All that could be done was to stand still and close our eyes hoping it would ease. Normally I don't spit in public but I had to repeatedly spit out the saliva in my mouth to get rid of the taste. Getting a hit of chillies in the eyes is something that often happens in Thailand but tear-gas is on a whole much more intense level that Thai chillies just cannot compete with.
This must have happened a few more times and we were nicely helped out by some people who gave us water to try and wash our eyes with. We had got back up the road half way between democracy monument and Kock wua junction and I noticed that there was tear-gas coming from near to kaosan road and the red-shirts seemed to have been pushed back significantly. We could not move forward on this side of the road but also we could not move back towards democracy monument. I knew we needed to keep moving towards Sanam Luang so we were forced to climb over the potted plants that run along the central reservation of the road. On the other side we were able to move on further and then moved on down a side road that led away from Rajadamnern. We moved along a road that moved parallel to Rajadamnern and numerous ambulances tore past us making their way to the nearest hospitals. Randomly we actually met someone we knew and then carried on until we emerged at Sanam Luang next to the Ratanakosin Hotel which was made famous for the massacre that happened there only about 20 years previously when other groups of protesters had dared to call for democracy. Having seen the way the red-shirts are prepared to fight back against the police and the army I think that if the government is determined to use force to end this protest then it may take a massacre on the same scale to get the red-shirts out of Rajadamern road. I sincerely hope this does not happen.
We passed a rather new looking Mercedes Benz that was adorned right at the front with a very proud looking "truth today" sticker. Obviously this red-shirt supporter was not one of the "poor rural hoards" that the red-shirts have previously been stereotyped as. We went into the nearby Seven-Eleven and got some water and then, as we had been walking since Thewet, we sat down for a rest. While we were sitting there we were approached by a middle-aged slightly dirty and poor looking gentlemen who proceeded to burst another of the red-shirt stereotypes by showing that while he did not have a high formal education, he certainly had a very clear knowledge of politics and why he was there. Another red-shirt stereotype is that they are all paid to be there. I have no idea of this guy was paid to be there, I personally doubt he was, but all I know was that even if he had be paid he certainly would have been there protesting even if he hadn't. A final stereotype that he broke was that all the red-shirts are republicans. He proudly pointed out the picture of the King that adorns the front of the Ratanakosin Hotel and explained how he loved both the King and Thaksin, although certainly doesn't like Prem and the other "Ammart".
Finally deciding to head back home we headed over to the end of Khao San road next to Wat Chansongkran that we had about an hour ago seen hordes of tourists leaving in droves. The road now seemed almost deserted. Almost all shops, bars and guesthouses were shut. A few remained open entertaining the tourists who hadn't been scared off. Banners informing people to have a safe and enjoyable Songkran seem to have been put up to early and now almost seemed to be ironic in their pleas to people to be safe. Having heard that the army had already retreated we decided that we would walk along Khao San to the other end to see what was left after the battle with the red-shirts.
We got there and there were a number of red-shirts, some tourists standing around taking pictures and various members of the press. The area was completely trashed. There was broken glass all over the road and so too were pieces of wood, some army helmets and shields. Pools of blood were also splayed on the floor in some parts. People were searching the rubble and found numerous bullet casings which they were collecting as evidence. A pick-up truck that had been part of the barricade had numerous bullet holes in the window and body of the car. A foreigner handed some bullets he had found to one of the red-shirt guards and explained to me how one of these bullet casings was certainly not a blank as the shape of the end of the casing would have been different if it was a blank. Knowing very little about bullets I took him at his word but have also taken a picture of the casing so am sure someone can confirm this for me. The owner of the car that had been used as part of the barricade arrived and was taking some of his possessions from his now wreck of a car. Oh, also the bullet holes in the car certainly came from the direction of the soldiers and not the side of the red-shirts.
After this we finally decided to go home but decided to stop off at a favourite Israeli restaurant of ours for some food as we were pretty hungry. After this we walked up Rambutri road and saw that the army truly had retreated. Obviously so that they can come back and fight another day, possibly early in the morning of the following day, we don't know just yet.
I have learnt a few things in these last few hours. One is that tear-gas is really nasty stuff; the other is that the soldiers will need to use a hell of a lot of it to remove the red-shirts from Rajadamnern road.
Thanks for the information but it isn't war (yet). Just a horrific waste of human life, something Thailand does every few years. Fortunately it usually makes people stop, negotiate and pull back from the brink.
While it probably did look like war to Nicholas the title is inflamatory and not helpful (unless you are a newspaper owner), it is a bloody protest. If the toll is higher than Songkan road toll, last year, 373 motorists died and 4,000 were injured during Songkran I might use that word but should such deaths occur it wouldn't make anyone right/honest/justified. It would just be another awful waste.
there have been fifteen deaths of protestors (and a Japanese photojournalist- does this remind anyone of what happened in Burma?) as of midnight last night. It i time for academics to stop trying to assume any middle ground niceties and liberal guff (names withheld): as I stated five years ago on NM blog: we have a neo fascist regime in power; a puppet government installed by the coup leaders and an amart assuming the mantle of a vernacular "democracy"… It is nice to observe, and for those of us not there, but lets give unequivocal support to the prodemocracy movement, the masses, by disclosing the double-speak and mischief of Mark and his pals…
S. Alexander
I was there at Rajaprasong all night last night. The people were upbeat and decided to be there to guard against a possible crackdown. I've met a group of former students from the 1973 protest who are now in their late 50s. Had a great conversation with them before getting some shut-eye in front of Central World. The night sky was beautiful but the air was filled with sadness.
Jim Taylor, what do you know about "Mark and his pals?" you seem rather educated but I seriously doubt that you possess an unbiased heart. K. Abhisit was installed by no one. People seem to forget or conveniently overlook that he was elected by the same process with which Samak and Somchai came to power. Abhisit's administration has been the most transparent one in Thai history. Let independent investigations bring the truth to light. Then you may judge.
My heart goes out to all those out there who are doing there best no matter how wrongly misguided they may be. If only one man would stop and think beyond his own self interests, this would all be over. unfortunately that man does not see dharma. God have mercy on his soul. May this all end peacefully and may lessons be learned.
US issues this statement on the situation in Bkk:
The United States deeply regrets the violence on the streets of Bangkok April 10, and the loss of life. Violence is not an acceptable means of resolving political differences. We call on the United Front for Democracy Against Dictatorship (UDD) and the Thai security forces to
show restraint going forward. The United States firmly believes both sides can and should work out disagreements peacefully through earnest negotiation. We once again stress the importance of all players in Thailand working to resolve differences in a way that strengthens democracy and rule of law. We strongly support the Thai nation and its
people during this difficult period.
Suzie Wong
Professor Jim Taylor, thank you for your insights. People who are pulling string behind Aphisit and Aphisit himself have arranged a team of psychological operation to conduct deny and deceit here in NM. I am sorry that you are encountering Aphisit's dirty operation.
Aphisit is an untrustworthy, р╕Ыр╕ер╕┤р╣Йр╕Щр╕Ыр╕ер╣Йр╕нр╕Щ, person. Aphisit himself knows full well that in a fair game he will never be elected; a greedy man, Aphisit, simply has no shame to play dirty tricks in order to cling on to power. Blood and death has no meaning to a person with no conscience like Aphisit.
Be a man for once Aphisit, GET OUT!
Pharris
What is the end game for both sides?
A compromise in which new elections are held within 6 months (with O preconditions on either side) seems a fair and rational outcome that will avoid bloodshed and chaos. And while everyone is interested in the streets, no one's asking about the budget. That seems an awfully important political issue to get out of the way before either side contemplate new elections.
Is such a compromise possible?
The Red Shirts are riding a wave of momentum and are in no mood to negotiate. They feel they have the upper hand after two successive 'wins' in two days. They've humiliated the government and feel they've splintered the military. They are most likely wrong. The military/police will soon come down on them with a fury so strong that red will not only be the color of their shirts but the color of their decaying corpses. If the Red Shirt leaders know what's good for them, now is the time to negotiate. Don't believe the hype.
What's the likely outcome?
A military and police crackdown of a sort that's not been seen since the 1980s. The Red Shirt will overplay their hands, bouyed by positive press coverage. The government will be delegimitized by its impotent response to the protests but will hold on until the next elections. The UDD will lose any effective leadership. Both will lose the next elections and a new alliance of military and Bangkok business elites (sans royalists?) will restore order without any meaningful reforms.
Moral of the story?
Farmers and country folks alike, now is the time for your leaders to negotiate while they have the upper hand. Support negotiations and don't give in to the euphoria of "People Power." Look where it got the Philippines–nowhere. Democrats, a little power sharing with the country bumpkins will do the country good. Avoiding bloodshed should be every Thai's top priority.
Beware the vigilantes. If I were a Bangkok resident, I'd be mighty pissed at the recent disruptions. I might team up with my fellow neighbors and business owners and go after these protesters who have usurped my city and my business for their own political agenda. That's a powderkeg that's about to explode. Watch out.
Leeyiankun
Yoda, Abhisit holed up in a barrack to issue his statement. – FACT.
His government was set up in a barrack, wan't it? Somchai tried to call on the army for help, they didn't come, yet they did for Abhisit. – FACT.
No one installed him? he didn't came to power by majority of ppl's votes, did he? The other party had to be dissolved first. – FACT.
So many facts, that you seem to be ignorant of. Is this your first time on a independent news site? Because you seemed to be getting your information elsewhere, and there are glaring HOLES in them.
Pharris, wait for it, all the players haven't come out yet. At least not the MOST important one anyhow.
I urged anyone who wish to know more about the land of (not so much) smiles to read Paul Handley's infamous book. It'll fill in the blanks on the events that has happened, and the pattern will make sense somewhat.
So, making any conclusion now is too rash, and a bit naive. The main player isn't even here yet!
I guess I am the one being accused by Suzie Wong of being a part of K. Abhisit's dirty operations. This saddens me and makes me realize there is no point arguing with you here.
I have no allegiance with any party or group. I am US born but my father is from Singburi and my mother is from Payao. my roots are far from elite and rather close to the red shirts. Don't accuse me the way you do. The misinformation you try to spread is an insult to thinkng minds. There is a reason why Thaksin cannot enter countries like the US, UK, etc. There is a reason he was found unfit to own a premier league football club. The reasons why he held onto power are different from K. Abhisit's. They are like night and day. Please stop accusing me. Today is already a sad day beyond belief. There is nothing wrong with wanting investigations to uncover the truth. There is nothing wrong with wanting justice and peace for more than just one group that is misinformed and exploited. Please stop. It really has gone on far too long.
In the past, such as in the 14 Oct 1973 student uprising or the May 1992 Bloodbath, a PM whose actions caused bloodshed would be asked to step down. I am not sure this time because maybe the casualties (18 people dead, over 800 injured) are not much compared to the two incidents.
Any PM from any democratic country would step down without being asked during the current situation but this Oxford-educated PM is different because he is there to fulfill a group of people's mission, not his own. He may decide to stay no matter how many people have died or will die in the streets.
There are unconfirmed reports from "watermelon soldiers" that a second operation to flush out the reds from Phan Fa will start soon this Sunday afternoon. Let us wait and see because these are not confirmed.
Btw, the Army chief should appear in TV soon demanding that the PM step down. Why ? Because, the Army chief did so to former PM Somchai for his police's "brutal actions" against the yellow shirts on 7 October 2008, resulting on the deaths of two PAD members and injuries of many protesters.
The Army chief's failure to do so would certainly be interpreted as double standards (sorry sir).
Tarrin
Yoda – I'm too tired to write anything too long, but let me say why many people here ignored you, it was because people like you always said the same thing without even considered what is actually happening, furthermore, we all dont care about Thaksin anymore, he's an old news.
Andrew Walker
Good photos of the aftermath here.
NongChang
# Yoda: Completely on your side. Some comments here are great in terms of slogans and denial of any other opinion as being somewhat "brainwashed".
Talking about greed? Let me add another country that doesn't grant Thaksin visa anymore, Germany. So we have a list of countries that wouldnt accept dealing with Thaksin again as a statesman. Thaksin "himself knows full well that in the eyes of these" govts "he will never be" respected.
Talking about justice? BKK Post reported about an SMS by Thaksin to his followers that demanded for "justice". But justice doesnt concern monetary values only, how about him? (War on Drugs, Tak Bai, Krue Ze) Dear Suzie, "blood and death has no meaning to a person with no conscience like" Thaksin.
Be a man for once Thaksin, SHUT UP!
Many of you assume that the brutality was done on by soldiers under direct orders of the Abhisit administration. Instead of accusing others of speaking without paying attention to the facts, please review your comments.
And please…about Thaksin being old news. I have spoken with poor village people from up north through some friends who have recently returned home. They have been instructed to say they don't like Thaksin but are fighting for democracy. You don't have to trust me or believe me. But Thaksin is very much important to the red shirt movement and is still very much at the center of it all.
If he was not, the red shirts would've been fully embraced by so many in Thai society who wish for peace. Red shirt demands and many of their points raised are extremely valid. Truth be told, I am closer to the poor and rural folk than I am with the upper class "elite." I think most rich people in Thailand are full of shit. But the red shirts can't do this. How they fight and who they fight for only hurt their cause.
Please stop accusing me. You will never break me because I stand for no one. I just want it all to stop.
The army hasn't come out demanding for Abhisit to stand down, because Abhisit didn't order blood. It remains to be seen who caused all this violence this time around. Pay attention to all sources of news and you will see details emerge. If Abhisit is found guilty I would call for his head on a platter myself.
If you recall, back during the Somchai government, the crackdown was ordered with explosive teargas. Yellow shirts, (I hate them as well) never carried guns and grenades. During their long extended protests, there were never bombs around the city. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.
You can't compare apples and oranges and complain about double standards. Please be fair.
laoguy
NongChang #14 Interesting that you whine about denial of opinion in one
breath and then in the next you scream at Thaksin to keep his opinion to
himself. I'll bet he had to change his underwear after that.
I read with sadness the ever unravelling play that is being played, not siding with anyone but siding with peace as violence is never a viable solution and martyrs I have found sadly are soon forgotten
I have read many interesting articles from tourists, I am due to fly out to bk this coming Friday for a supposed two day stay in bk ony way to the islands, is it still safe generally? Ie are these riots taking place in small pockets of the city or is it widespread?
Really would appreciate some feedback on this ?
BKK: Interview aus der KSR - Thailand Forum - Die Reisespinne
Yoda (#15)
"Yellow shirts, (I hate them as well) never carried guns and grenades. During their long extended protests, there were never bombs around the city. THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE.
Yoda, all due respect to your opinions – but your memory seems rather selective.
David, I suggest you stay in a Hotel by the airport and then connect to your Island destination from there.
On Wednesday, the Abishit government declared the state of emergency and many of us stayed glued to the computer expecting the crackdown on protesters to start any time. Instead, what they did was to methodically block the People's Channel station and any website they could find that was sympathetic to the redshirts.
At first I thought that it was another futile attempt at censorship, because there were dozens of websites rebroadcasting that channel and publishing news and comments; often, the website owners only had to register a new domain, changing "com" for "net" or something similar and they were back on air. People were informed of theses changes on social websites, but every time a new url was announced, it ended up being blocked in a matter of minutes. I believe the government had a task force monitoring social websites to look for urls to censor.
The redshirts won the battle at ThaiCom on Friday, but Panitan declared "It doesn't matter, they have reopened it but we will close it again", and they did that same evening.
I have never cared much for People's Channel, because, frankly, it's boring to watch the same speakers regurgitating the same slogans constantly and one should take any information coming from them with a bit of salt anyway, but the government was not satisfied with taking the Redshirt TV station off the air, they wanted a total blackout on any media not controlled by them, so they blocked Prachatai, Same Sky Books, VoiceTV and many blogs. Yesterday I had to rely on SpringTVnews, the last standing Thai TV station that was informing about the government crackdown, but today their website is inoperative. They have successfully blindfolded the people, except for the few who can look for alternative sources of information on social networks and those who can read English.
Yoda: you are incorrect: Abhisit/Democrat Party was installed through inhouse wrangling; parliamentary bribery and coercion to bring the likes of Newin on board. It was nothing like an electoral or transparent process as with Samak and Somchai.
MediaWar
@Andrew Walker
Re "3rd element" (LoL, Tulsie's phrasing is funny – I guess he watched Bruce Willis' "5th Element" ! :D)
there are photos on Pantip Forum thread (particularly comment #5) showing holes from bullets, definitely LIVE ammo.
now, in comment #6 (р╕Др╕зр╕▓р╕бр╕Др╕┤р╕Фр╣Ар╕лр╣Зр╕Щр╕Чр╕╡р╣И 6) a photo of soldier or uniformed guy ("Guard") captured by red-shirts there at Khao Sarn (and slightly roughed up), later one I saw him among those "hostages" held on the main stage at Pratchasonkro.
In many thread on this forums and many other forums it was discussed that there were some shooters on the roofs – and apparently this guy was one of them. next photo shows red-shirt guard holding seized weapons – and can clearly see that closer one to foreground is a sniper rifle !
that has been also discussed a lot, as well as from witnesses reports, that some snipers (as this guy, I surmise) were shooting from the roofs. (BTW other links given on that thread lead to some more photos of aftermath on Khao Sarn, with more bullet holes)
so, this called "3rd element" is rumored to be connected to some (comments #137, 152) particular person.
earlier that day there were some discussions on internet that it is expected to be some "action" after 6pm …
than after the clash there was some witnesses account(s) that when army started to move on red-shirts, there was some sort of a confusion, because seemingly there was another "group of army" which has fired at that advancing group. and people say they saw what they thought "army fight with each other".
one thing is obvious: army didn't expect such a strong (and perhaps fair to say – "professional") retaliation, like especially when bomb (or rocket grenade?) has hit a group of officers (Thai MSM report that 4 of them are in coma now). that was like a strong message to them, which apparently influenced their decision to withdraw, and in fact till now (5pm Sun Apr 11) as we can see, there are no any attempts of a crackdown – apparently army had to rethink and regroup. although some info says that Gen. Prayuth has ordered more troops reinforcements (particularly Lopburi base 31) which are supposed to come to Bangkok for renewed crackdown efforts once again tonight.
although related story is that today there are a lot of discussions on net that "army is divided", and many of them are upset and angry. which also provides some explanation of what, how and why actually has happened last night.
the point is : red-shirts can't possibly be as good as regular soldiers, and especially be "cool" while bluntly shooting alive person. it requires certain psychological training, which not even most of regular soldiers / conscripts have. that's why those riot military police (or army) where instantly outmatched – they have faced some opponents with at very least the same, but more likely better training!
and I think worth repeating again – this event / action was purposeful to send a message to those in army who still considers continue and increase the level of crackdown – that they'll be met adequately. therefore Suthep / Prayuth / whoever (Abhisit not to take into consideration, he is a puppet-puppy boy !) should think twice before escalating confrontation.
so, let's see what next move they'll take.
strange, why my comments do not appear ?
AW: Apologies, sometimes comments with several links tend to go automatically to spam. Now retrieved.
# 15 Yoda >
I share this impression. He personifies
"The army hasn't come out demanding for Abhisit to stand down, because Abhisit didn't order blood. It remains to be seen who caused all this violence this time around."
Peace is their path? Badger a dog over weeks and see if it bites … In any case, the use of violence destroys any moral foundation of any movement. But thats my view. Not too smart to start trouble at a military base. Thats no protest for democracy but an attack on a state. Talk about self-fulfilling prophecies.
PS: There are 60+ million Thais not only the red shirts.
# 6 / 16 > "Please note: New Mandala encourages vigorous debate. However, for the moment we will only be publishing high-quality comments that make original contributions to discussion. … Repetitive ranting, unimaginative point-scoring and idle abuse will not be entertained. "
William thanks for your comments I am booked into the BAnyan tree ….. Is that in your opinion (or anyone elses) not a safe district to be in . We arrive Saturday flying out Monday morning , guess it should be ok no ? Even if we stay in the hotel ? I will observe what local comment is. Thank you
And I apologise to any local Thais for asking something which may seem trivial amidst a time of far greater issues
dave London
..this event / action was purposeful to send a message to those in army who still considers continue and increase the level of crackdown – that they'll be met adequately. therefore Suthep / Prayuth / whoever (Abhisit not to take into consideration, he is a puppet-puppy boy !) should think twice before escalating confrontation.
They brought knives to a gunfight, one of the high ranking officers was killed by a shot in the head, another died when a grenade exploded in the tent, that's how reds took out a major general and a colonel.
While soldiers were unprepared for this kind of response from "peaceful" reds, it's hard to imagine reds would prevail militarily when the army reassesses their rules of engagement and comes on fully prepared.
Jim Taylor,
Do you understand the parliamentary system? Quit being a smartass. I was respectful in my comments toward you.
FAQ in Thailand
http://www.youtube.com/user/thaifaq#p/a/u/2/AATZQeLIUCY
Spockusse
I just got back form Khoasan Rd.
There are many of UDD guards there, some say there are rumors that the Army are coming from Prachinburi base, they haven't confirmed it yet.
And I had talk to some british tourist who claim they were here last night and some got minor injures they all said the army use real bullet fire to protesters, Maybe this is not a topic of discussion anymore because there are plenty of evidence but local haven't reported it as it should.
As i saw many tourist were there taking picture and some of them are not quite aware that the situation has changed rapidly since many of them do not understand thai language so it's not safe for them to be there.
anthapan
The government's problem is not that "they brought knives to a gunfight." In fact, the government brought so many guns to this fight that when a bunch of those guns were seized it occurred to the red shirts that they could use a few for self-defense.
The problem is rather that Abhisit and his handlers thought they could massacre these people like they did with the students in the 1970s, without any resistance. They committed every dictator's worst mistake, which was to buy into their own propaganda. They certainly didn't expect that tens of thousands of people (paid to protest for sure) would be willing to lay down their lives for their brothers and sisters.
Nowt taken out
But army now know that putting this down won't be just a case of shooting unarmed demonstrators like in 92 or torturing unarmed captive students to death as in 76.
The taking out of their officers is absolutely classic guerilla warfare, done in a really expert way.
If you want a good assessment of the Thai Army's genuine fighting ability go and speak to the ex-KMT fighters in the north of Thailand.
"12 year old Cambodians armed with AK47s could beat the Thai Army."
Now, the Thai army could go out and begin a huge massacre (is that what you're calling for? please say so if you are) but they know that there will now be comeback.
Remember for most of the senior Army officers it's a business – they want to play golf, drive around in their SUVs and visit Poseidon a couple times of month.
They certainly didn't sign up to actually get in a proper fight.
NM Skeptik
I just got back from ……. Heard that one a few times here in recent days.
Ghoulish wannabe material! Grockleism for the roving political science student. Political voyeurism.
Farang are completely out of their depth here. They understand very little of the local dynamic. For that matter, a large number of locals don't really understand how often they have been fooled into being human battering rams by such wonderful jeekho opportunists as Chumlong, Sonthi, Thaksin and the Three Stupid Southern Stooges.
New Mandala is definitely doing its best to lead yet another generation down a blind alley. The best way out of an addiction is to remove yourself from an environment in which shit is sold.
Are you a stooge for The Nation?
Your rants on Thai politics are exactly the same – almost word for word…
"It's all Thaksin's fault"
@StanG
just to let you know: somehow moderators of this blog do not let my responses to your personal attacks to appears here, not because I haven't answered you. (although somehow they have allowed your comments, implying bluntly something, like branding me a "conspiracy theorist")
I tell you frankly – to me is very suspicious your own agenda in all your relentless attacking many people all over Thai blogosphere. I very much suspect that you might be either merely a troll, or a bot (one of those commonly "hired" guys to flame and rant on forums) or just another comfy right-wing expat who tries to pretend being assimilated into that "Thainess" mystique. 🙂
so, anyway, whatever – I have already answered to your silly personal attacks on other thread here (it's not my fault that Mods didn't let it appear) and I do not want to waste my time even to READ your comments. thus, please be informed that from now on I'll simply IGNORE all your comments / attacks – you can continue though to rant on.
(Note to Mods : you may delete the following part ! )
as saying goes :
"do not touch the shite and it'll smell less"
youtube video episode shows how protester was shot :
http://bit.ly/c0gDxo
I'm sorry but if you think the Thai masses are logging onto the New Mandala blog searching for the next bit of analysis you're sadly mistaken.
I think if you follow the logic of your own statement you'll realise how foolish it actually is….
The troops were well overarmed, in close civil combat situations its almost impossible to swing a baton and keep your M16 safe,the ideal situation would have been the front lines with baton only and more experienced NCO regulars behind with rubber bullets and gas launchers behind them.
Anyway the fact remains that the real rabble turned out to be the troops themselves,losing your weapons being captured leaving your colleagues and killing civilians is a disgracefull act.Spare a thought for all the families who have lost there children and fathers,mothers and some of the red bravehearts their grandfathers.
Most of the troops looked like young conscripts so thats sad as well.
Aphisit must go but what then?Its not going to be smooth sailing into democratic bliss thats for sure.
Srithanonchai
StanG #28
"it's hard to imagine reds would prevail militarily when the army reassesses their rules of engagement and comes on fully prepared" >
That could be great fun, indeed–some sort of large-scale slaughter on both sides. Anyway, StanG probably would stay in the safety of his home. Let the others die. He will merly comment on it afterwards.
Thai Army Opens Fire on Red Protesters
with video :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztF6hUryt88
"I do not know what caused initial shot …"
I bet it'll never be allowed to be known officially
(although people already talk about Prayuth's snipers on the roofs)
Some reds have probably used guns seized from the soldiers but the consensus among the military now is that "third hands" are responsible for most of the violence.
Panitan said that the ammunition, grenades and tear gas thrown at the soldiers weren't government issue. There's even a video of one red with AK-47.
There is a couple of videos showing unknown shooters firing at the soldiers, one from the second floor of a building at Kok Wua.
Relative of a killed colonel said soldiers had taken in a lot of fire from higher ground, too.
Then the infamous Seh Daeng came out today and declared that "ronins" were helping out the reds in that fight.
Bangkok Pundit tweeted that some reds were shot in the head, implying that they were victims of sniper fire.
Why would anyone be surprised if soldiers panicked and started shooting back indiscriminately? Grenades, tear gas, killed commanders – that's a war, not a non-violent civil movement.
That Thai FAQ dude made a lot of sense when he said that the red's level of sophistication and professionalism in urban warfare is way beyond Isanese farmers with grievances over democracy.
Tangential comment there. There really isn't any analysis here anyway. it's like a slightly up-market Visa.com. the only thais here are of the more political kind, and they are clearly not one big happy consensus. In any case, I can't follow your convoluted logic.
Most others are getting on with their lives, knowing there is no free lunch.
These are the knives that the government brought to this gun fight (warning, extremely graphic):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpARrZG7_qw
Thailand's Neda Soltan.
Srithanonchai #40
Reds shouldn't have allowed themselves to be lured into a war with the government. However accommodating Abhisit might be, that's not the war ANY government can afford to lose, especially in the heart of the capital.
Nattawut has been calling for scaling back, other reds are urging on. Today they went and attacked Thaicom again while the government stopped fighting and vast majority of the public want negotiations.
I heard some analyst on Mcot radio today and he said red leaders are prepared to sacrifice up to a thousand red shirts. Twenty lives lost yesterday didn't deter them in the slightest, so that analyst might be right.
TOO GRAPHIC ! http://bit.ly/ajeR1E
from the photo it looks like bullet entered and left not through the forehead/back but side-wise. perhaps this is a sniper bullet indeed.
on the video ( http://bit.ly/c0gDxo ) he is seen first in the middle of road (facing where the soldiers are, I guess), with flag, calling for protesters to come back, then walks to the right side, facing not the shops / sidewalk, then he falls. perhaps he was singled out because he was holding a flag ?
When people decide to join a protest, this stuff happens. It's a bit like joining the army and wondering why you get shot at. This political battering ram stuff is doomed to bloody failure.
The way to defeat the poo-yais, is to be better than them in every department where they are weak. Not really as difficult as it seems, since most of them are extremely self-deluded people with one track minds and a complete aversion to hard work.
Do the names Duangchalerm and Wanchalerm ring any bells with you? Would I confront an armed cop-killing cop face-2-face, when I'm not armed? Never! But in the knowledge that they are essentially both DF stupid, they can definitely be defeated by far more subtle means.
The battering ram approach has been used time and time again since 1932. There's zilch to show for it. It's time to take a completely different approach. And the first step towards that is to slam the door in Thaksin's face. His money is not necessary. it just corrupts a good cause, and so confuses people about the real objectives. It's time to start saving up for our own salvation, instead of pissing it all up against the barroom backwall.
MediaWar // This video changes some details in one of the most famous stories which peoples told on the street. In this video this guy looks like he had been shot and his head hit the floor hardly and another stories is he had been hit by hard objects on the head.
I mean this
MediaWar // Apr 11, 2010 at 11:44 pm
BKK lawyer
Yoda: If the parliamentary system involves the courts dissolving the ruling party and the army chief cobbling together the new ruling coalition, then Jim Taylor seems to understand it very well. Do you?
….. And get some real policies. Even if you have to actually pay Jai or Thongchai to write them. No, not Jakkrapob. He's too full of the pretentious shite he puffed himself out with as the ex-PM's PR man. In other words, nothing more than hollow spin and weasel words.
I can't remember hearing anything solid other than the useless stuff like the 30 baht health scheme that was bankrupt before it even started. Or the OTOP scheme where every one ends up making the same horrible wines for a hi-so market that doesn't even exist. Or the ELITE Card, ditto. Life is, unfortunately, not about Thaksin fixing Bangkok's traffic problems in 6 weeks, or Chavalit's 1996 schemes for High Speed Trains that never arrived.
All we ever get from the redshirts are worn-out slapstick show versions of things the yellow shirts already did to death.
Mr T. Sweden
LOL. You got to be kidding right?┬и
I got movies where the yellow thugs does everything you just said they didnt do. And i also saw it with my own 2 eyes.
Wake up Yoda.
To Yoda # 29
Yoda // Apr 11, 2010 at 10:26 pm
Please stop destroying the people right to protest for democracy.
Currently, there are minimum of two parties, especially Bhum-jai-thai party, which was not come to the parliament democratically.
Swing the side and group a coalition cabinet, no one and no one in Thailand has vote for this so-called party.
Yes, Abhisit choose them and step on the Thais majority.
What is so difficult with dissolving this parliament and how many more death bodies needs for Abhisit to decide to dissolve the parliament???
Don't you remember that he and his colleague are so confidence about the next election that his party will get 240 to 280 seats….
Some interesting observations by Michael Connors here: http://sovereignmyth.blogspot.com/
There are hundreds of photos of 1000s of soldiers carrying a huge amount of M16s and more.
You state one Red was carrying an AK47 and yet you argue the Army was outgunned.
Make your mind up.
I'm also in agreement with Media War – without you fully revealing your personal details I'm convinced you are likely a Thai govt plant or someone with business interests in Thailand.
seems it is confirmed. The man had enough balls (unlike some others, as Prayuth) to admit it himself :
'Ronin warriors' fire M79 grenades at troops: Khattiya
"Maj-Gen Khattiya Sawasdipol said Sunday that the so-called 'Ronin' warriors or underground warriors helped red-shirt protesters battle troops on Saturday.
He admitted that the "unknown force" or "Ronin warriors" fired M79 grenades at troops and one M79 grenades landed at the tent of the commander of the operation, causing the troops to have no commander.
"This caused the troops to have no commander and caused them to lose the battle," Khattiya said.
"The Army commander [Prayuth] thought the red shirts were easy to be crushed but there are not," Khattiya said.
so, as I said earlier, these are not some golf-playing fattening on public money p*ssies, but combat trained & tried fellas.
somebody has managed to record this video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7oKenp6ZLw
(although from a distance, zoomed)
more details (in Thai) here with photos & videos here – although many argue many things there as speculations. like that those guards clad in black on photos were the actual shooters. Al Jazeera video (at 2:25) briefly shows one guy walking with rifle (looks like a sniper rifle), then another one holding AK47. these fellas look differently than those "men in black" (notice entirely black, although man on video has brown color pants)
these materials were up on internet last night (18.55 ), and Nation's boss Yoon apparently was already aware of that – and I guess those this article was published on Nation today. I doubt it very much that "Ronin" themselves have made a statement or a press-release ! 🙂
although words used in article are : "said" and "admitted" – as if he called Yoon himself and claimed responsibility, ala some Bin Laden.
Nation doesn't provide more details, like how they got this info (taken an interview from him? he called them himself?).
BUT ….
if really he "admitted", as if gave press conf. or something – then perhaps this is quite a significant and calculated step.
Re video of a protester shot in the head – a sniper fire from a higher ground is the easiest explanation, given how far he was from the frontline and how many people were between him and the soldiers.
I'm not a forensic expert, of course, but if there was indeed a "third hand" picking up targets to provoke indiscriminate shooting and blame it on the government, he was a likely victim.
The government can put up a very convincing presentation here and it would go a long way to easing tensions, considering how this man's body was brought onto the red stage to incite hatred towards the army, among other things.
I think both sides will eagerly accept the third hand scapegoat that absolves them from any responsibility and allows to move forward politically.
"Graphic images and video links to last nights military action (Hiro, "flagman". etc)
I don't have any liking for guns or the men who use them but in this instance the interpretation of what happened on Saturday evening turns on who was armed and what kind of arms they were carrying. The Government's spokesman are saying that there were weapons being used that were not part of the official armory. To back this up there have been many references to the model of grenade that may or may not have been used. I must say that I am quite impressed that they were able to identify the ordinance in question so quickly. Somebody must have collected shards from the scene?
But the pictures and video on the net of what appears to be a Redshirt guard brandishing an AK 47 are also part of the same spin and I have to point out something. While the units involved from the Thai Royal Army do not use the AK it is a common item amongst the Rangers. According to Michael Connors in Sovereign Myth
"Some of the red guards are thaharn praan or rangers. I meet a group that stands guard outside the police hospital. They are from Pakthonchai, Ratchasima. One tells me that while the government has paid for some rangers to come to Bangkok to guard various sites he and his men are not for hire and have come voluntarily to protect the red-shirts. Asked how this would all end he says, "There must be blood, history is like that."
It seems to me unlikely that the AK was captured from either the police or the army however from this source's testimony it would appear that both sides could have fielded this weapon…
NYtimes photo of 1 armed man
http://twitpic.com/1ewkgv
Exclusive FRANCE 24 footage show soldiers firing directly at protesters
contradicts the Thai government's declaration that soldiers only fired live rounds into the air during the Saturday night's clashes with "Red Shirts" protesters, in which at least 21 people were killed… Thai soldiers can be seen firing their automatic riffles directly at the protesters…
"We visited different hospitals Sunday morning and we've seen several victims with bullet wounds in the head (…) It's really hard to believe the official declaration that mentions only rubber bullets and troops firing into the air", says Cyril Payen, FRANCE 24's correspondent …
clash was triggered by the explosion of a grenade, the origin of which remains unknown.
"The explosion killed seven soldiers and wounded a colonel of the Thai security forces in his head", says FRANCE 24's Payen.
While the victims of the explosion were being taken to the nearest hospital, the army retaliated by firing into the crowd…
I guess this is the video of that grenade attack:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnLf0GgYTu4
(although some comment it wasn't, but either just some hand made one or a petrol bomb, and that M79 was fired later)
Guess Yoda, NM Skeptik and your kind didn't count on this not being the Nation, do you?
Believe what you must. It changes NOTHING.
This country is hidden behind a veil of lies for decades. It'll take more than a couple of thousands of people to blow the wind of change to lift it.
I for one am hopeful! The change is coming, and the Dems are too rigid to embrace it. 60+ years is already too long for the life cycle of these vultures!
I look forward to a link being provided for the "video of one red with AK-47". Likewise clarification of which videos clearly show "unknown shooters firing at the soldiers, one from the second floor of a building at Kok Wua." – as opposed to at the protesters, for example? Anything but clear in any of the videos I've been viewing – e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY7OafG9Src&feature=channel .
Likewise – a source for "Relative of a killed colonel said soldiers had taken in a lot of fire from higher ground, too"? The source for the curiously understated mention of Seh Daeng and "ronins" is presumably that ever-dependable bastion of propaganda-free reporting…… The Nation? [ http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/Ronin-warriors-fire-M79-grenades-at-troops-Khattiy-30127000.html ]
As for "that Thai FAQ dude" being surprised by UDD's level of organisation (yes, actually he speaks about their catering, logistics, sound system, guards maintaining discipline etc – not "urban warfare"), he can be forgiven for not having kept up with the efforts that UDD have been putting into getting themselves organised for the last 12 months – the results of which are clearly visible and much commented on since the beginning of the current protest. But….. seeing as we're spuriously asked to consider the invented "urban warfare" aspect of what he didn't say….. just what would be so surprising about "Isanese farmers" having the same military skills from their time as Army conscripts as the current batch of "Isanese farmers" conscripted into uniform have? Actually, of course, and self-evidently….. neither is particularly skilled at it.
[ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AATZQeLIUCY&feature=channel ]
The Crackdown in Bangkok | Lee Jones's blog
[…] – including foreign tourists, since the battles even raged through the backpacker ghetto of Khao San Road. Alternative media has been able to get the truth out, despite government attempts to control the […]
Ralph Kramden
The AK 47 photo mean very little. Think about it for a moment. This is one picture of one guy. Even if it was a hundred pictures of different people, the balance of weaponry is way on the side of the government forces. Most of the footage shows red shirts fighting with sticks and rocks. It is not a balance in any way.
I think it is worth reading this article on Nation dated Apr 8 (that's 2 day before Sat Apr 10 event on Kow Wua) :
"Pathompong urges military to act again"
It was not on the front page, but somewhere in "Others" section, those personally I've missed it. however in this interview ultra-right Gen. Pathompong (who doesn't make a secret of being PAD supporter) touches upon the divisions within the army and his version on such divisions. his definition of "bad" and "good" soldiers are particularly characteristic ! (no wonder "good soldiers" deployed snipers on the roofs to shoot mob in head, and for that their commanders were blown up by "bad soldiers" 🙂 )
so, it is pretty obvious that it is not simply a matter of "unruly mob got armed", or even simplification such as "mob Vs army" issue. it is in fact deeper than that – there is a power confrontation between different factions in army itself. (which is actually nothing new, as history of Thai coups shows; as well as, according to some recently written book – what's actually going on in South, different commanders simply fighting each others for zones of influence and then blaming it on "insurgents")
certainly without some or other group of army supporting some or other group of mob (say, as in 1992 Chamlong, being ex-Gen himself, had failed against Suchinda due to lack of such support, although in 2006-2008 he won because he & his PAD had it) – that particular group of mob would NEVER be able to even pull up some more or less decent protest, what to speak win !
therefore, I think at very least one should not over-simplify the situation and merely blame it on Thaksin paying mob, or on Suthep's / Abhisit's / Anupong's incompetence. to have a realistic picture it is necessary to attempt to grasp the whole of it, with all those seemingly concealed sides.
although as saying goes, the best lie is the one hidden in plain sight ! like many things are actually still possible to discern from the very same biased and heavily self-censoring Thai Media (as Nation).
related stuff:
The Watermelon Question by Nirmal
(Note sentence: "Snipers were shooting from roofs")
he also mentions Bkk Post article
(funny, it mentions "mango soldiers" too – just today I thought about possibility of such phrasing ! 😀 )
also, BP has latest post where he refers to Matichon quoting Sae Daeng, mentioning snipers again.
It is getting ridiculous by the minute, I don't know if anybody realize that either the red shirt or the army could be facing at least one of their own friends or family members in each skirmish. It's horrifying to think that any second now you could kill or hurt those you knew.
All this could have been avoided if the coup didn't happen, if they just follow the law and take Thaksin to court if they felt that he abused his power. But because it did, all the works that the older generation who had fought for democracy is now gone.
How can there be trusted in the army when they themselves clear show favoritism and thirst for politics. How can there be trust in the current government when they themselves used to be on the otherside demanding the same thing the red shirt is doing now.
@StanG: "I'm not a forensic expert, of course, but if there was indeed a "third hand" picking up targets to provoke indiscriminate shooting and blame it on the government, he was a likely victim."
You could well be right about this, but just for the record I would like to note that this is the same explanation that the Iranian government gave for the killing of Neda Soltan last summer.
Coup d'tat would not happen right away, i think there will be Yellow shirts Vs Red shirts clash before that, the army will use the same 19 sep accuses.
Kok Hua
Media War, # 41,
Excellent Youtube clip, thanks.
The Thai military will ensure People Channel TV closed. If this youtube clip falls into their hands, it is the end of Abhisit/Ammat.
People will know who started shooting on the 10th of April.
Sathit-controlled TV stations gave one-sided story of what was happening. They are very scared of this Youtube clip.
Steve #61
Yes, you are watching the right video, thanks for finding it, I updated my blog accordingly.
At 20 second mark there are shots fired from the red crowd very close to the camera, but, more significantly, at around 1 min mark there is a shot fired from the second story of the building on the right, and it's probably not the first one since people were pointing at the spot with flashlights and laser pointers for a few seconds earlier.
Is it a third hand or reds are going to own up for that shooter?
Here is the video of someone shooting at the soldiers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7oKenp6ZLw
StanG — the ever insightful analyst with incomparatively insightful judgment…
"Third hand" or "terrorist snipers" as Suthep and the military called them in a latest press conference can change the whole course of how the situation will develop.
Forget reds, the army has found new enemies they are not likely to pursue at all and they no have no more beef with reds.
All we need is for UDD to drop their own war mongering, admit both sides fell victim to provocation, and agree on new talks with the government.
Then we are likely to see Songrkan truce.
For now reds only are spoiling for a war, it seems.
Spin and propaganda.
How fortunate now that "terrorists" have been found and they caused all the problem ?
Burma, Burma Burma. Its no longer Thailand its just like Burma.
Of course the government does not want to admit their solidiers killed others, any excuse they can think of now to cover their very exposed rears.
Question : How many government plants were in the crowd mingling to get photo'd with guns to help the Yellow media with excuses in the following days ?
Abhisit and Suthep should resign and flee the country, they are the terrorist masterminds, the real ones who attacked red shirts and tried to kill them using force. They cannot deny, the solidiers carried live ammo.
They bleat first they did not have live ammo, and so lie.
Then they say they did have it but just shot in the air.
Finally they say they did have it and shot in the air, or only used it in certain situations.
Watch how their story changes all the time.
Its only deceitful liars that need to change their story !!!
Notice also it was "Impossible" to hold elections sooner than 9 months. Now the liars are saying it could be quicker, maybe 6 months.
Liars again, who told the world impossible quicker than 9 months.
Yellow liars and murderes, who took power though a military and then a parliamentary coup.
Supported by a Yellow media and what seems to be a Yellow judiciary.
They have made their own massive hole, and now they are falling into it.
Politische Lage bzgl. Thaksin - Seite 4 - Thailand Forum - Die Reisespinne
Tulsathit
Urgent: a red mob led by Arisman had taken Jirayut Rungsrithong, CEO of CAT telecom, to unknown destination.
Viva la revolucion!
Great. Now we are now poised to exchange one "neo-fascist" government for another one and one group of "amarts" for a new one led and financed by a paranoid kleptomaniac and murderer. Thailand has not progressed since 1932 and power still comes from the barrel of a gun. Only this time it will come from the Kalashnikovs and M79 grenade launchers of the urban terrorists who shelter behind the non-violent red shirt protestors like the IRA's gunmen did in the 70s, desparately trying to draw fire onto innocents. Abhisit may as well dissolve Parliament and pass the poisoned chalice back to Thaksin's cronies to let them reap the harvest they have sowed. It will not be an easy job for anyone to control these armed terrorists now they know they can wage war with impunity, not to mention all the other disparate red factions that will want a slice of the action. Death squads, kidnappings, extortion and banditry are the natural consequence of giving in to terrorists, not democracy. Good luck to them.
tulsathit: Translating @mktmag: It's believed CAT Telecom chief cud be taken to satellite centre in Kaelai to facilate restoration of PTV signals.
How many guns can you spot in this picture?
This devoted buddhist is not anonymous, btw, his grandson outed him out.
Meanwhile, Tulsathit translating autopsy announcement:
"10 bodies – causes of deaths were from being hit by high-power rifle bullets."
Could it mean NOT the army issued weapons? Any gun experts here?
Hla Oo
You need a battle-hardened and brutalized troops overwhelmed with hatred to shoot at their own unarmed people.Thai army doesn't really have that sort of troops like Burmese army has.
Thai army should contract out the mass slaughter to the Burmese army if they want their Bangkok back from the Red-Shirts.
StanG – Tulasit's translation must refer to any type of military rifle. The size of the charge and the length of the barrel result in a velocity and consequent trajectory in human tissue that looks very different from a pistol shot and is a lot more destructive. An M16 round tumbles around in human tissue doing terrible damage (an unintended result of the lightness of the bullet that was nonetheless welcomed by the US military) and an AK47 round is not much fun either. This would be very obvious even to the low quality pathologists working in Thailand. There seem to be pictures of black clad figures hiding amongst the red shirts holding both M16s and AK47s. One of them was holding something that could have been an M16 fitted with an M203 grenade launcher (the generation after the M79 that is commonly mentioned in the press these days). Sorry, I forgot the pictures are, of course, all as fake as the soldiers' wounds.
# 52 Jay > "Please stop destroying the people right to protest for democracy."
"Nation Breaking News: Arisaman Pongruangrong led some 300 motorcyclists to take CAT Telecom CEO Jirayuth Rungsrithong from the CAT Telecom head office at noon Monday."
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/Urgent-Arisaman-leads-300-motorcyclists-to-capture-30127074.html
If we assume both sides had access to weapons, men who were not afraid to use them and a willingness to escalate the situation and you still have a picture of the Army launching an armed assault on a civil rights demonstration. The evidence clearly shows that the Red guards did fire at the military. But one glance at the casualties and its safe to say that the volume of fire coming the other way must have been considerably greater. A few off duty rangers with AK's may account for some of the Army casualties but unless they opened up on the crowd behind them too, its difficult to see how they can be seen as the principle source of violent deaths and injuries.
@StanG: About the supposed abduction of the CAT CEO, it is now confirmed that those reports were false. See the story from the Bangkok Post below. Many of us know better than to believe any rumor peddled by Tulsathit and his ass clown colleagues at the Nation. You are smart enough to do the same.
┬бViva la revoluci├│n!
Reds go to CAT office
Published: 12/04/2010 at 05:52 PM
Online news: Breakingnews
Red-shirt leader Arisman Pongruengrong led red-shirt protesters to the head office of CAT Telecom on Monday, demanding to know if caused the disruptions to the broadcast signal of the red-shirts' People Channel, according to news reports.
He met with CAT's CEO Jirayuth Rungsrithong, who denied any CAT involvement in the transmission or disruption of the pro-Thaksin PTV signal.
Mr Jirayuth accompanied the red-shirts to the CAT's telecom network centre in Nonthaburi to prove that CAT did not do anything to disrupt the signal.
He denied reports that he was abducted by the protesters and said he was not taken to their rally stage at Phan Fa Bridge.
Tulsathit didn't say CAT's boss was abducted, neither did Nation's breaking news story.
I guess someone could say they had a meeting and Jirayuth then "accompanied" Arisaman to give a tour of CAT's facilities and operations.
Question is – could Jirayuth say no to his "guests"?
W2A!
QUOTE leeyiankun // Apr 12
I for one am hopeful! The change is coming, and the Dems are too rigid to embrace it. 60+ years is already too long for the life cycle of these vultures! UNQUOTE
Now all we have to do is fight off the lies that some people now believe are justified by ……. [fill in according to your own personal prejudices.]
The problem is that many of us also think the redshirts are also way too rigid to embrace any real change. We see them embracing the monomaniac Thaksin, the crazy Seh Daeng, the old CIA man Chavalit, the dodgy Chalerm, the always suspect Border Police and the strangely-changed flip-flop Phanlop and we ask ourselves why. The answer comes back firmly. These are vultures circling a succession that looks piss-poor weak before it even starts. In other words, we will be looking up the barrel of some new dictator a few years down the road. And probably no longer with anyone capable of calling off the dogs at the last minute.
But what if we were wrong? Well, it's not our country. I can afford to stay out of your conflict. I cannot afford to be in it at all. And if I acted as I would sometimes like to act, I would be condemned by you straight away. I might even end up as roadkill. I can't even afford farang fees in the government hospitals.
So, all in all, it's better to stay away from what we can not understand. Cowardly? You bet! I am not a martyr. There will be a few farang martyrs of course – but my guess is it will be few.
Understand this Leeyiankul. Farang count for nothing here. We are not respected. We are waiied to and then ridiculed and ripped off behind our backs. I can live with that. That said, I cannot fight for any cause that I don't understand. I know a great deal about Thai political history, but I also know that I don't understand the grassroots dynamic at all. Which is why I refuse to wear red, yellow & pink t- shirts. It's not my country. We have our opinions which we express to each other to release the definite tension in which we live – as those vultures also spend a lot of time circling us too.
Frankly, I think your time in this forum is wasted. Agitprop amongst a completely cowed expat population will be hard work, with almost zero returns. There must be other more ripe pickings elsewhere.
I truly hope you find some far better leadership than that you possess at the moment. You need a far more politically astute leadership – not one led by the demented, the deluded, the bungled and the botched of the current political establishment.
chris beale
MediaWar and others – is General Pathompong Kesornsuk the same general who on stage at the last major PAD rally advocated bombing Angkor Wat ?
Was the good general too old – or too ignorant – to know that many of the major tourism businesses and tourists at Angkor Wat, were/ are Thai ?
Or does n't he really care about his fellow countrymen ?
Portman #80
refer to any type of military rifle… M16 round tumbles around in human tissue doing terrible damage … and an AK47 round is not much fun either
well, as much as Nation can be believed and their information considered credible, here is their latest article on the matter :
Nine of 12 victims killed by super power rifles
"An independent panel conducting autopsies on 12 bodies of the red shirts protesters who were killed when the red shirts protesters battled with troops revealed that nine of them were shot by high power rifles.
Pol Lt Gen Jongjet Aojenpong, a chief doctor of the Forensic Institute, a member of the panel, talked to reporters after completing 11 bodies."
what rifle – is not mentioned, but photo looks like one from Wikipedia article for M107 – which can use 0.5 shells, can be explosive & armor piercing (HEIAP).
In Thai forums was discussed that "flagman" must have been shot with this kind of explosive bullet – considering the close-up photo of his skull (or more exactly remaining half of it). others killed had just a small hole in forehead.
If this is true – then it is a not some accidental death from a regular "stray bullet" but a DELIBERATE calculated purposeful cold-blooded MURDER professionally carried out with aim to scare other protesters:
1) few seconds before he was shot this man was calling to others to to return back / get away from fire (was he some sort of a leader ?) – thus obviously others around kept eye on / been aware of him;
2) he had a flag and was waving it – which drew additional attention to him from others, and that's why when he was shot his fall was better / faster noticed by all because of flag. so, this was done by a profi for EXACT purpose, under special orders.
therefore, I would not accept explanations (or speculations) that "army were firing into the air" or in "self defense" or that only untried conscripts were used for crackdown. I bet whoever was in charge of this whole operation was 100% AWARE of the plan, of the deadliest fire power (against man armed with … FLAG !) & profi employed for that, of the objective (to terrify the mob) and expected result : swiftest possible success of mob dispersal in short term AND in long term discouraging ANYONE/ ALL UDD / redshirts people (hundreds of thousands? few millions all over country) from any further protests.
therefore, I think whoever those "Ronin" were, and despite Abhisit calling them now "terrorists" – their blowing up 4 officers (which instantaneously changed the whole course of battle) who commanded such a ruthless crackdown was not an act of terrorism at all – but a VERY deserved justice ! I bet many people feel the same way – for example, as it was mentioned here in another thread on NM about Chiang Mai – red-shirts there reacted with cheers when they heard that "general was killed" (at least one of bloody m*f*rs like Sarit, Thanom, Suchinda)
another conclusion I draw is : those "ronin" KNEW of the army's plan and how brutal would be the force used against the protesters – that's why they have responded with no less deadly force. if so – it would not be so easy to nail them and exemplary punish as "terrorists" for the sake of saving "Democrat" government. because, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, nobody from army (spokesperson Sansern, Anupong, Prayuth, whoever) has denied yet anything in response to Sae Daeng's words (quoted by Matichon) about "snipers on the roofs". and the fact that he was bold enough even to admit involvement to me indicates that he has sufficient intel and evidences of their own actions, which he will use against them in case of ANY attempts to prosecute those "ronin".
Spockusse #47
yes, he was not simply shot, but in a very ruthless professional way.
(read my thoughts in a previous comment)
"hit the floor hardly" – sure, as hard as anyone who falls would hit it, but that was not the reason why the content of his remaining half skull spilled all over the asphalt so graphically. the reason for that was – high power rifle, perhaps with explosive bullet (although I guess even regular 0.5 caliber bullet would make enough damage).
interesting are stories on Prachathai ("A Soldier's Story" by one of those untried drafted conscripts who were used in crackdown), to me it is noticeable :
There were other units, some from other services
another similar one Thai Forum Pantip (only in Thai language – perhaps someone may translate it?) is more interesting, it gives more details and about real state of affairs in army, and service of conscripts. in it he says things like "we have no choice but follow orders" (even mentioned – I don't know how true is it – that officers would stay behind and shoot anyone who doesn't follow the orders to shoot protesters), that soldiers who were brought to Bangkok for crowd control get 500 Baht per day, 200 of which are "deducted" (given comparison with those in South, who get only 120 Baht after "deduction"), and other details.
The Nation (i.e. note the health warning) is reporting that autopsies of nine protesters show impacts from "super power rifles"*. The stock picture accompanying their story appears to be of the Barrett M82 or M107** sniper rifle – either fires a .50 calibre bullet at very high velocity.
One assumes that wounds inflicted by that kind of round would be very distinctive – and not easily confused with the results of smaller calibre rounds.
* http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/04/12/national/Nine-of-12-victims-killed-by-super-power-rifles-30127091.html
** http://www.statemaster.com/encyclopedia/Barrett-M82
Her Majesty the Queen seems to be extending her sympathies to only one side of this conflict.
Bad move your Majesty.
"At 20 second mark there are shots fired from the red crowd very close to the camera, but, more significantly, at around 1 min mark there and is a shot fired from the second story of the building on the right, it's probably not the first one since people were pointing at the spot with flashlights and laser pointers for a few seconds earlier.
[ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY7OafG9Src&feature=channel ]
Not wanting to compete with this one-man wannabe Warren Commission, but worth noting what was left out of the above – that the "shots fired from the red crowd very close to the camera" are all fired upwards – in the same direction as the "people were pointing at the spot with flashlights and laser pointers".
If that is "a shot fired from the second story of the building on the right"….. is this now supposed to be red-on-red shooting?
http://thaiintelligentnews.wordpress.com/2010/04/11/mobile-post-red-soldiers-and-police-combat-prayuth-soldiers-saving-hundreds-of-lives/ gives an alternative version. I hope it goes without saying that, without corroboration, it can't be viewed as anything more than a claim.
On a separate point, I'm wondering what has led to MICT blocking the YouTube video of Al Jazeera footage showing a balaclava-clad figure (with a red handkerchief hanging from his belt) walking around with what is clearly an AK47 [ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJt8K8Scalk ]. Frames from it are still on the OK Nation blog [ http://www.oknation.net/blog/canthai/2010/04/11/entry-5 ] – along with a strange photo of another balaclava clad figure carrying a heavy rifle; he's also adorned with a red (Isan?) handkerchief, is wearing surgical gloves and is followed by a younger guy carrying two more rifles. Who are they?
Many questions and not many answers yet.
Jirayuth also told all workers to go home immediately when he got back to the CAT office because the red shirts might return.
Of course that's because he didn't want anyone to be in the way when he held a dance party for the red shirts right?
chris beale #85
as I know – yes, the very same one. he said in interview himself that he went on PAD stage in uniform.
nevertheless, at least in his interview he provides some glimpse at current affairs within army. which I guess are rarely shown in local English lang. Media – only may be in Thai lang., and even there to some extent.
as for PAD – what you can expect from them? there was a report that a week ago they went to Hua Hin, to 1st MRC Summit to protest : "Hun Sen – get out !" no more comments.
say, Hun Sen would shake Abhisit's hand and say: dude, I guess I can't stya but go back – I'm chased away from here by YOUR people (since Abhisit became PM with their help). that would have been a serious sh1t ! 😀 despite some relations improvement after moron Kasit (also PAD) pissed him off that time.
Your comment (84) is just complete garbage.
Tulsathit tweeted this at roughly 8am Thai time –
" @tulsathit: A red mob led by Arisman had taken Jirayut Rungsrithong, CEO of CAT telecom, to unknown destination."
Using words like "mob", "taken" and "unknown destination" imply only one thing – a kidnap or involuntarily movement (eek) of some sort.
So why the constant dissembling StanG? What is your real beef? Why are you even in Thailand? Hardly anyone even reads your blog. The rest just seem to think you're a fool because your half-baked nonsense is just so obviously transparent.
in continuation of "soldiers' stories" …
this article has an interesting part which provides yet another aspect of army traditions:
Anti-riot squad cut up by soldiers in black
The death of Colonel Romklao "Pao" Thuwatham of the 2nd Infantry Division, is expected to reverberate through the Army ranks.
It is a century-old tradition that graduates from Chula-chomklao Royal Military Academy come from the same feeding bowl, and hence will not kill their own kind under any circumstances. In the failed coup of 1977, General Chalard Hiransiri broke the sacred code by fatally shooting General Arun Thawathasin. Chalard was subsequently executed by a firing squad.
Chavalit and top generals backing the red shirts should know that Army commanders will not allow Romklao to die in vain. Justice must be served one way or another 😉
notice that there is practically a threat to Chavalit & others! (I wonder who has supplied Avudh with info, and perhaps even with such a strong message itself – I doubt it that some reporter would dare so directly threaten generals, knowing long history of how some reporters were dealt with).
this has been discussed on Thai forums. the main point is : certainly ALL army officers know this rule. Note reference to "feeding bowl": the tradition is (someone would correct my whatever mistakes), that at graduation each cadet would add a drop of his blood to the bowl with water and then sip from it, all of them – those creating sort of ancient style "band of brothers" sealed by blood. and as I recall they'll also make some sort of vow that if they raise their weapon on their brother (fellow cadet) – then for that they'll bear severe punishment of death (by their own weapon?) or something like that.
now, I don't know the whole story of those 'ronin', but apparently they are also well aware of that tradition (or shall we say LAW). which means – either they really gone wild, abandoning their vows, or they are not officers who never even taken such vow, or …. they must have some SERIOUS reason to commit such a "treason" (against their fellow "brother" officer) – like, perhaps particular officer has also done something which enabled them to act so without fear of inevitable consequences ?
ISOC spokesman says military officer identified Romklao for assailants
the other side was angry that Romklao led troops to restore order during riots last year so the other side was angry and would like to take a revenge
here (see Update 2) it is added :
Romklao was one of the officers who gave the "shoot" order during Songkhran Uprising of 2009 and that he has been quite vocal about what he did
that time last year army acted swiftly, before the dawn, there were reports that shot people were swiftly loaded on trucks and taken away, whatever blood washed with ready standby water hydrants – thus leaving no evidences behind. thus UDD's claims that many were killed never been acknowledged but instead rather blamed for inciting "more unrest".
but apparently the guy who gave order to "shoot" was not forgotten nor forgiven – especially because he was bragging about it all along ever since, and apparently was leading a new crackdown this time.
so, yes, these are just my speculations – whatever their worth, if any.
however I think that taking into consideration the above "bowl" tradition – he must have been responsible for deaths of some fellow former cadets (brothers in arms, soldiers) or his order "shoot" that time is sort of "raising weapon on brother". otherwise I doubt it that he would meet such an end, as a second article indicates: "it was planned in advance".
that also (for me) hints on another thing : that whoever those 'ronin' are, they had their own sure intel and knew not only the Col. Romklao would be there to lead a regiment, but also, and especially – his intentions, forces deployed etc. – because they could quickly pinpoint him & terminate, as well as – should not forget this ! – take out those snipers on the roofs (they also KNEW where they are). there are some photo of one such guy being lead by red-guards. it is said that 4 of 5 "hostages" held by red-shirts were those snipers.
and once again, I'd like to remind and emphasize the sentence quoted from Prachathai "soldier's story" about : "There were other units, some from other services" – that is in plural, means more than 2 I guess. and it also relates to what is discussed on internet about "several different commanders" who brought their guys to the scene and participated in this fire exchange. it is also confirmed by witnesses, that seemingly all of a sudden when army and police saw that shooters from the roofs start killing protesters – they got angry and started to "shoot their own".
well, alright – sorry for a long comment, but my point is : it is NOT simply some so called "3rd hand", but more correctly would be to say – several groups (3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th – who knows how many?) participating on both sides. and another point is : as I said it previously, it is not simply about red-shirts Vs gov, but also, and especially so – about different factions in army crossing the line into open hostility with one another.
the fact that Nation has started to publish such things (remember! their interview with Gen. Pathompong was on Apr 8 ) – indicates that these things about division in army were already circulating even in Media for a while, well before the Sat Apr 10 "crackdown" – or rather clash of few different army groups in the midst of crackdown. and now, that Nation rights in such a strong words about "Justice must be served one way or another" – this is also significant. (BTW PPT has a review of latest Sopon's op-ed "Sopon essentially calls for blood")
and last, but not the least, it is significant that Anupong seemingly woke up from his slumber / silence, and started to talk – (both Bkk Post & Nation have articles with his comments on dissolution, etc). this is rather strange – that somehow before the crackdown he didn't bother to talk in public (although surely did at 11 army base where Abhisit & Suthep live lately) – but somehow after that day, particularly after "message" (death of Romklao) – he started to express his opinions, although still making it look like he is beyond politics.
so, I think the "terrorists" excuse won't stick. neither would "3rd hand" – since there were more than 3 🙂 hopefully it will not escalate ("reverberate") into full scale feud to sere the justice "one way or another"
The Flag Man Nattawut Paentong, 36, from Samut Prakarn, was killed definitely by a Thai-special-forces sniper equipped with .50 cailbre M107 sniper rifle provide by US special forces.
There is only one Thai special forces unit specially equipped with that high power sniper rifle. The unit is Task Force 399 from Third Army in the North. It is based in Mae Rim, just north of Chiang Mai.
It was conceived in late 2000, and its formation began in January 2001 to supposedly fight Wa Narco-traffickers from Burma. It consists of 400 troops – 100 Special Forces personnel, two infantry companies of about 100 men each, and 100 Border Patrol Police (BPP, or dorchordor).
About 20 US soldiers from the 1st Special Forces Group are serving with them as instructors for that Task Force, and their special weapons are M107 high power sniper rifles.
They did border incursions to stage many targeted assassinations.
One shot and it took out top half of his head. Maybe the killer of our flagman Khun Paentong could even be a US special forces instructor?
The man got shot from the Tavor TAR-21
http://www.pantip.com/cafe/rajdumnern/topic/P9110517/P9110517.html
post no 191.
Which use the same bullet caliber as the M16, the 5.56x45mm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56x45mm
The hydrostatic shock from the round is more than enough to blow a human skull open.
That's why a journalist who got shot in his left leg had a very small entry wound but very large exit wound.
Charles F.
Hla Oo,
You're getting carried away with yourself, making assumptions based on smoke.
You toss it out that "maybe" the shooter was an American.
We could speculate until the cows come home, but the fact is, you have nothing to base your assumption on.
If they weren't proven dead you could surmise that "maybe" the deed was done by Lee Harvey Oswald or James Earl Ray, two noted American marksmen.
By the way, shooting someone in the melon in the confines of a city is major overkill. The bullet would have gone through anyone behind the victim – and on and on. More likely it was a 5.56 or a .308.
Two scenarios are emerging here:
A group of "Ronins" provoked the soldiers to overreact, they also blew up their commanding officers. In the ensuing chaotic shootings they picked up targets among the red shirts and killed them when they least suspected, to provoke more anger from the protesters and give red leaders a reason to blame the army for killing innocent people.
Another scenario is at least two groups of snipers in the same buildings, one deployed by the army to kill ordinary protesters and TV reporters in cold blood and on government orders, and another, the virtuous Ronins, targeting only the unsuspecting soldiers, and there was also the gun toting red crowd below who spotted the government team and drove them off by spraying bullets everywhere.
Pick your favorite.
Four out of five captured soldiers were hiding in their vehicle and came out during the lull in the battle, unaware that the area was under the red control.
There was one other mysterious soldier who, according to Jaded on Absolutely Bangkok, was wearing a sniper mesh around his neck and red guards leading him carried some sort of a sniper version of M16, presumably confiscated from him, too.
They didn't parade that dude on the stage, though, they instead quietly released him without any fuss, as if it turned out he was working for their team.
I can't think why they would forgo the massive PR boost they could get from capturing a government sniper.
@Hla Oo
thanks for interesting details !
@Tarrin
I rather agree with Hla Oo – because according to specialist (guy quoted in Nation's article about) said protesters were killed by high power rifle. and velocity of M107 is certainly higher than TAR-21.
besides, 0.5 caliber shells were found in plenty on the sight, can be seen on many photos and few videos.
the photos on Pantip do not prove your point. they just base their version on the basis that red guard has over shoulder this Tar21 – however that same guard on other photo has actually several weapons, – and it is obvious that they were just carrying what they've seized from soldiers and soldiers had few different kind of weapons, as here for example protester is holding.
now, this is an interesting quote which provides additional clue :
"The "terrorists" the prime minister said instigated the bloodshed on Saturday night are malcontent soldiers intent on bringing down the government, UDD leader Natthawut Saikua said on Tuesday…
"The terrorists the government claimed [were there] are soldiers who do not accept the current administration, causing conflict within the army," Mr Natthawut said. "They used the opportunity on Saturday to create unrest." He did not identify them, or offer to help with their arrest."
it makes me stick to my opinion that Sat event involved more players than 3 (protesters, gov forces, "3rd hand").
in other article said : "The UDD also demanded t he government arrest the 'terrorists' that Prime Minister Abhisit claimed that they were among the red-shirts on Saturday."
I think it is a good point: WHY so far no one has been arrested by gov. ? in past couple of months there were many cases of bombings, shooting at banks etc. – seemingly someone has purposely been preparing the ground for "terrorists" version. however NO ONE so far has been arrested and charged. so, if gov. prefers to push on this "terrorists" version – then it is only logical that they should catch them and prove their version, because after all that would certainly be a credit to their words. otherwise merely to TALK but not produce anything substantial to prove their words – doesn't help gov.
here is quoted Thairath newspaper :
Thairath went in details and reported five protesters (Sawat, Yutthana, Wasan, Ampol, and Praisom) died because of brain trauma from high velocity gun shots… Other three men (Tawatchai, Charoon, and an identified Thai man) were shot in the chest-abdominal areas (entry: chest, puncture lungs, a liver and main arteries) it was unclear some bullets could be recovered from those bodies. A man died of personal respiratory failure.
I don't know how objective (neutral) this newspaper is, ans especially the doctors & autopsy specialists (one quoted on Nation is from Defense Ministry) – thus I do not subscribe to the version that these people were killed from behind. but then, even if they were – it is not a big deal to position snipers well in advance especially in such a way so that to be able later implicate the red-shirts themselves, or, as now the preferred gov. version is – "terrorists". it doesn't really matter for a sniper where from to shoot – from behind, front, side or even from above.
BTW this blog also mentions TAR-21 (I guess the blogger also got it from Pantip), however unlike Tarrin she doesn't claim with certainty that these people were killed with TAR-21, but says: "Weapon sighting included Tavor Tar 21" – in other words, among all the different weapons seen on photos and videos someone on Pantip has excitedly recognized TAR-21 and placed the whole detailed information sheet about it there 🙂
what I wonder about is: does Nation have some basis for placing photo of M107 in their article, or was it just as much guess as on Pantip forum.
There were two representatives from UDD on the autopsy panel. They agreed with the results.
Only one body still had a bullet lodged in it. The rest were all shot right through.
I find the whole idea that the government deployed snipers to kill ordinary red shirt members preposterous. Even if that was so, they'd have far more important targets than flag-waving nobodies.
The idea was publicly discussed, btw, as a way to tackle the gunmen in the crowd, and the army guy said that if comes to it, they'd set a filming crew behind sharpshooters to record every shot.
Losses inflicted on the military during "Black Saturday" as an indication of a possible Red strategy:
Most of the media attention on the violence of last Saturday night so far has focused on the casualties suffered by civilians and whether, as seems likely, it was the military which was responsible for the deaths and injuries. As tragic as that is, I think it's very important to consider the significance of the large number of soldiers who were also killed or injured in the violence.
According to a Matichon report yesterday [http://www.matichon.co.th/news_detail.php?newsid=1270909637&grpid=00&catid=no] the military spokesman for the р╕ир╕нр╕Й. confirmed that 232 SOLDIERS HAD BEEN INJURED IN THE VIOLENCE, 92 OF THEM SERIOUSLY. That means that over a quarter of the current figure of around 860 killed or injured in the violence were military. Among the dead and wounded were a number of officers. According to one unconfirmed post on Prachathai up to 40, or ONE HALF of all the military vehicles used in the operation to break up the demonstration were seized and destroyed by the Red Shirts [http://www.prachataiwebboard.com/webboard/id/38648]. (A Nation report yesterday stated that an ISOC spokesman claimed that the officer killed, Colonel Romklao Thuwatham, had been targeted (with a laser) because of his prominent role in the suppression of the Red Shirts in April 2009 [cited in http://thaipoliticalprisoners.wordpress.com/2010/04/12/queen-and-prince-attend-soldiers-funeral/%5D.)
If these figures are accurate then in my view this represents a very significant defeat for the military; surely the worst suffered in one day in peace-time, and more serious even than the losses the military has sustained in one day in its operations against the insurgents in southern Thailand.
It seems to me that the casualties inflicted on the security forces sent in by Abhisit to break up the Red Shirts demonstrators on Saturday night is intended to send a message to the royalist leadership in the military that the Red Shirts will not just sit back and be slaughtered as in April 2009 but will fight back, that they have expert military advice and are capable of inflicting significant losses on the military.
(If this is true I certainly don't blame the Red Shirts for employing lethal force to defend themselves. When the government has close to total control over the mass media and closes down all the Red media there is no point getting slaughtered "for free" while the royalists conduct a media white-wash. How many times have royalist forces killed people in the streets with impunity over the last 40 years.)
For public relations purposes the Red Shirt demonstrators have to play the role of the non-violent protesters, but at the same time I think it is very likely that they have a more lethal back-up team. (It may be that the media story a while ago about splits between Pallop and Sae Daeng and the Red Shirts' leadership might have just been an act to distance the "non-violent" Red Shirts from the dangerously violent Pallop and Sae Daeng.
So after Black Saturday, if there is another order from Aphisit or Prem to confront the Reds the military will know now that they are themselves targets (See Sae Daeng's comments along these lines in Matichon today: [http://www.matichon.co.th/news_detail.php?newsid=1271145436&grpid=00&catid=].
This would surely give some members of the military pause for thought. Why die for Abhisit, or Prem? Especially if the Red Shirts and pro-Thaksin forces appear to be on the rise, while Prem and Bhumibol are not long for the world.
Another problem is that if there were another confrontation with the Reds, and pro-royalist security forces were sent in to the battle looking for revenge, knowing that they were being targetted by armed Red units, at the same time they could not afford to kill large numbers of "peaceful" Red Shirts protesters because that would surely make the government's position – and perhaps even that of Prem, or even the monarchy itself – untenable. This would place the security forces in a very difficult situation.
If this theory is correct then "Black Saturday" may represent an ominous development for royalist control over the military.
Human Rights Watch has a report out on the Thai violence. Some interesting tid-bits:
– Video footage and still photos showed some soldiers firing M16 and TAR21 assault rifles in the air with live ammunition throughout that afternoon. Human Rights Watch has obtained photos showing that magazines of those assault rifles were loaded with the live ammunition (green-tipped 5.56-mm ball M855 ammunition). Teargas canisters were thrown from a military helicopter at the protesters, risking death and serious injuries among protestors from the falling canisters.
– The situation on April 10 became more violent after nightfall as both sides engaged in gunfights. The protesters regrouped and fought back with metal pipes and sharpened bamboo sticks. Some of them hurled petrol bombs at the soldiers, while others attacked the soldiers with improvised explosive devices. Some soldiers were filmed shooting with live ammunition directly at the protesters with M16 and TAR21 assault rifles.
– On the night of April 10, protesters armed with M16 and AK47 assault rifles fired upon soldiers at Khok Wua Intersection on Rajdamnoen Road. Some of them fired M79 grenades and threw M67 hand grenades at the soldiers. Video footage showed that these gunmen operated with a high degree of skill and coordination. Some of their attacks appeared to be aimed specifically at killing and maiming commanding officers of the army units involved in crowd dispersal operations.
– Witnesses told Human Rights Watch that some UDD protesters stopped ambulances on their way to hospitals. They dragged injured soldiers out of the ambulances and beat them.
– UDD leader Nathawut publicly urged protesters to loot and destroy high-end shopping malls in that area. While under pressure from the military to clear the area, Abhisit ordered the government not to attempt to disperse the UDD protesters at Ratchaprasong intersection for fear of heavy casualties and damages.
– "Prime Minister Abhisit's announcement that he will investigate the conduct of the security forces is unprecedented, but he needs to show the will and ability to follow through," said Adams. "At the same time, regardless of their stated grievances, those in the UDD responsible for crimes must be brought to justice. The UDD's leaders should understand that when they use violence, they cannot claim to be a peaceful movement."
full, lengthy report at following address:
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2010/04/12/thailand-end-political-violence-bring-offenders-justice
here some quotes from Suthep, Seh Daeng, and Chat Kulladilok (UDD leader) on "terrorists"
"[Suthep] said he was worried about the red shirts killing each other"
?! o^O
the nerve guy has ! 😉
"Khattiya Sawasdipol, retorted by saying that hunters could also be hunted before he branded Suthep as a terrorist. He added that the armed men were not the redshirt guards, nor were they fighters under his command. "They were sent in to infiltrate the red shirts and tarnish their public image," he said."
I am surprised that Nation has decided to publish it.
"Chat Kulladilok, said the armed men belonged to two groups from the military: those wanting to rule the country after a bloodbath and those who are discontent with officers allied with Army commander General Anupong Paochinda"
RE "Update" (#99)
someone has already posted an Update on this "Update" ! 🙂
Human Rights Watch failed to watch human rights?
which I think is pretty good
And god, 9 protesters shot from a distance-in a clear assassination mass murder style around a single place – like what the sh1t is this failure to notice systemic killing? Hey get this, the big thing in Thailand right now-is who is responsible for this mass systemic killing. Like mass murder not on top of the report but some crummy half baked about riot at Parliament?
Did HRW failed to watch human rights?
@Aladdin #99
I think more correct would be to say not :
"very significant defeat for the one faction of military from another faction of it"
Seh Daeng makes no secret of it (see Nation article), as well as many others – who also despise Anupong & Prayuth as completely forgetting even how to hold a gun, because they are mostly busy playing golf … however they hold their cozy (and profitable) positions, while sending others who're not from their group to some remote areas (as S. Thailand or some border).
so, as I've been telling before – there is not just crisis of red-shirts holding anti-government protests, but also of some "jockeys" (the famous 4 years old metaphor) not willing to get off the "horse", and other (or more than one?) trying to pull them down.
that's I think explains why Anupong finally made public appearance and started to talk.
looks like this stuff has already made it to international media
Are cracks emerging in Thailand's military?
When a prime minister needs to hold a special TV broadcast to assure watchers that his government is united and in control, it is often the opposite message that is conveyed.
Behind the propaganda war lies the larger issue of the military's distress about where it now finds itself.
whuahahahahahaha ! how Abhisit & Panitan are gonna freak out because of this. and I bet Kasit will go totally "nuclear" coz of his rage and accuse BBC too of "intervention in Thailand's affairs"! (as he slammed Germany & Russia recently)
"There are some divisions in the armed forces," said Prof Surachart Bumrungsuk, a military and politics expert at Bangkok's Chulalongkorn University.
"Some units don't want to be involved in such a crackdown, others wanted it to be more assertive.
"It is no secret that General Prayuth Chan-ocha would have liked a harder crackdown," he said.
Gen Prayuth is the deputy armed forces commander and supposedly in line to take the top army job after Gen Anupong's retirement in September.
That transition could be derailed if a military-friendly government is no longer in place to oversee it…
"In April 2009 during the reds' uprising, he was nominally in charge but Gen Prayuth appeared effectively in command of dispersing the red protesters… Gen Prayuth and the "tiger soldiers", otherwise known as the "eastern tigers" – the 2nd, 12th and the 21st infantry divisions – are seen as more hardline…
"Dissension in the army stems from resentment against these privileged soldiers whose career mobility is more promising. It would be unsurprising if other army units would oppose Gen Prayuth's hard-line approach," believes Prof Thitinan.
There is also a new concern within the military, not of division at the top but of a divorce between the top brass and the ordinary soldiers.
"The fear on Friday was that they might lose control of the rank and file. That was new, and very, very frightening [and contributed to] the stupid, chaotic blood-letting on Saturday," says political analyst Chris Baker…
Certainly the deep divisions in Thai society – the military included – are not going away.
"Saturday night made it clear that there are elements within the military providing the opposition with tactical information and that on the other side of the divide there are elements with good military training and equipment," says Anthony Davis, an analyst with Janes Defence Weekly.
now, these are not some Nation or Bkk Post reporters speculating. apparently this matter has been closely observed by some international specialists.
What is happening in Bangkok is an almost exact replica of 8-8-88 uprising in Rangoon.
If Thailand follows the Burmese example, a coup will come soon and Thais will be ruled by the generals for next 20 years.
But the way Thai Army is reacting now is indicating that the military has no guts for a prolong dictatorship.
I reckon a genuine democracy similar to Indonesia is coming to Thailand soon?
there is no genuine democracy anywhere in the world, it is, shall we say, a statistical fact.
whole term "Democracy" is cliche used by global elite. it is a false premise – out of which all other possible conclusions would also be erroneous. western countries at best have either oligarchy or a "corporate fascism" – some say "socialism for the rich". and yet they impose this FAKE concept upon others, often and many times supporting blatantly brutal dictatorships, while at the same time topple REAL democratically elected governments, or at least sponsor the "colored revolutions".
(there is a very good documentary by John Pilger called "The War On Democracy" where he exposes all the BS;
BTW he also has movei about Indonesia : "The New Rulers Of The World" and also about Burma : "Inside Burma: Land of Fear"
I wish that one day he could make something similar about Thailand)
However MAY BE Thai peasants just may get a somewhat better opportunities to be able to improve their lives. that would be fair enough, I guess. even if it is called "somtamocracy" 😀
Wotdemocracy?
Let' s put it this way then. The victims were killed by other Thais, political allegiance unknown, who see nothing wrong with snuffing out another person's life for the sake/profit of a few overprivileged individuals. That statement stands up whatever bloody faction the murderers come from.
No democracy can ever be built in a society where mobs, factions, cliques, mafias, goon squads and renegade security forces run riot on a daily basis. Let's dispel the myth that this is an essentially peaceful society. Sure there are a very high percentage of people who mind their own business and tolerate others. These people continue to be given a very rough deal, while those who are constantly aggressive are only ever rewarded. A (significant) minority is persistently given free license to roam the streets and murder, maim and pillage as they see fit – with absolute impunity. That really is today's Thai society. And that's the way it's been for decades. No democracy can ever be created under these conditions. But the fantasy-world notion of democracy can (and constantly is) used as an excuse for further violence.
Until such factions show much greater respect for the rule of law, democracy is impossible. And for people to observe the rule of law, there have to be reliable security forces and a reliable system of justice. No one can argue these things are already in place. So the necessary prerequisites for democracy are almost entirely absent.
Let's stop kidding ourselves that democracy is possible under current circumstances. This is a violent society – albeit one in which much of the violence is carried out by a fairly small group of serial criminals. If these groups remain as untouchable terrorist organizations, there will never be any improvement. Their concentration on criminality has also prevented them from having any coherent policy to address the country's main problems – born, as they are, out of the laissez-faire disregard of the over-privileged for those who produce the country's real income.
I am now convinced that both the yellow shirts and redshirts are essentially criminal organisations, based on the fact that their leaderships both obviously see nothing wrong with murder, intimidation and theft. Likewise most political parties, many individuals in the security forces and quite a few in the civil service and elite. Even the country's highest have a tendency to solve problems through murder and intimidation.
(One could argue that the ordinary members of these factions are also complicit, since their allegiance indicates they see nothing wrong with crime.)
And here we are expecting the criminals on both sides of this bitter succession race to deliver us into democracy. How utterly absurd! If the so-called intelligentsia can't work out that plain & simple truth, we are definitely doomed to living in a failed state. We will gain nothing from supporting either faction of succession profiteers . Both factions are undoubtedly terrorists.
Wotdemocracy? – As much as I want to agree with you on the non-violence point. However, history has taught us times and again that no democracy can be "acquire" without bloodshed.
As a sidebar to Wotdemocracy?'s comment, an article by Sawai Boonma in today's Bangkok Post is worth looking at. Key extract:
"With modern communications, the glaring differences in incomes and standards of living are there to be seen daily by the poor and the highly indebted. They see unfairness and are easily persuaded to do things which otherwise they would not even consider doing. Worse, a large segment of the better-off is getting richer by engaging in shady business practices and in many cases outright criminal activity; they start by using political connections and corruption as grease but have recently taken control of the political process itself. Most provinces, municipalities and local administrative districts are now largely controlled by politico-business oligarchies. Each oligarch uses a system of patronage to maintain its base.
Sometimes they fight but they also collude, especially at the national level. This collusion has been made easier by modern technologies and especially by the culture of corruption and indifference that I wrote about on July 9 and Nov 11.
As a result, Thailand is now practically divided into fiefdoms controlled by shady people with money."
http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opinion/36049/on-the-fast-track-to-becoming-a-failed-state
Today on Ch 7 Thai TV news report included footage of the "man in black", so hysterically proclaimed by Nation & Bkk Post as one of those "terrorists" mentioned by Suthep – standing behind Nattawut in exactly same attire as on the photo. Nattawut was saying that – the speculations about him being "terrorist" are groundless, because he is just UDD security guard – and that time he was carrying weapons collected from soldiers. the fact that man is not trying to hide but was shown on TV already tells for itself – if he was a "terrorist" (or "ronin") he certainly won't be seen at all, even taken photo of. Bkk Post (or Nation) has quoted some Thai national special forces saying that "those people would be hard to find" – while this guy is not hiding at all. he is still doing his guard job.
however Nattawut presented some other photos of obviously a soldier, dressed in red-shirt, associating with army too – and Nattawut challenged why gov. / Media do not bother to mention this guy or to arrest and question him?
another curious thing : today on main UDD stage there was one guy speaking, apparently comrade of Seh Daeng (who BTW has also visited the main stage) and he was saying among other things that now there are at least 53 generals who are aligned with the faction which is opposed to Prayuth.
(what mostly attracts my attention is – that this matter about divide in army is apparently widely discussed both in MSM and even on main UDD stage & broadcasted ont their PTV)
lastly, I think this post is interesting, providing some additional info, just few points to quote here:
"philosophical conflict between professional soldiers, the democratic soldiers and the royalist soldiers…
massive re-alignment in the Thai military…
The wider result is off course a weak chain of command and a deterioration level of professionalism…
… a great deal of money is in waiting …
The problem for the military is that it is not professional and too political …
MediaWar,
Democracy is fricking real, not some bull-crap system invented by the elite.
Believe me, I have lived half of my 55 year life in Burma, the worst country on this planet, and another half in Australia, the best socialist country in the world, and some considerable period going in and out of Bangkok.
And I sincerely believe that people get the government they deserve, and the Thai people really deserve a better democratic system than they have now.
I read you and understand your feelings.
sure, comparatively speaking – a person who lived in very oppressed place as Burma, when coming to LESS oppressed – may think that it is a paradise, the best country, etc.
John Pilger though is Aussie himself – and don't you think he DOES know what he's talking about ? 😉 (he has many works dedicated to his homeland) Aus also has a fame for long history of oppression of indigenous population (well, yeah – Howard "apologized" to them already, didn't he ? LOL) for "stolen generations" ; as well as handling immigrants in a very racist way. another thing Pilger mentioned that Aus special forces / army have been (or still continue?) training those very same …. Burmese troops. did you know that ? although they are very vocal at demanding "democracy" in Burma.
so, anyway, it is a huge subject to be debated here. but I agree on the part that Thais (and any other ppl) deserve a better conditions. although should it be a "democracy" or whatever else – I think it is another matter. I rather prefer "somtam-ocracy" 🙂
few more stories related to divide in Thai army :
Reuters : ANALYSIS : Thai military rifts spilling dangerously into open
(looks like this report has nothing new, merely summing up everything already said by other news agencies)
Bkk Post : Military admits firing at reds
Only single shots fired to minimize casualties
Nation's article : Pictured man [in black] clarifies his position
At a press conference, redshirt leader Natthawut Saikua also accused Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva of planning an operation like the one used on October 6, 1976, when protesters were surrounded and killed. [MW : that time brutal assault on Thammasat Uni campus was also prepared by giant propaganda that "terrorists" are hiding there]
He said Abhisit claimed there were terrorists among the protesters and was inciting hatred between the red shirts and the public by accusing the movement of wanting to overthrow the country's highest institution.
Natthawut added that the spirits of dictators like Field Marshal Thanom Kittikhajorn and Field Marshal Prapas Charusathien had probably possessed Abhisit.
The redshirt leader then presented Manop to members of the media, saying that the redshirt guard had seized weapons from soldiers and was taking them over to display on the Phan Fa stage – not the Khok Wua intersection or the Satri Witthaya School intersection as alleged.
Manop is that "man in black" branded as terrorist whose photo was posted by Nation & Bkk Post.
from another blog :
Making sence out of the government terrorist story
As as far as forensics, as we noted earlier-what came out so far is accidentally released and in the future, as we also noted how the yellow press is censoring and twisting it, this also indicates it will most likely be twisted as well.
Picking up on the final part of MediaWar's post 118…..
Tucked away away at the end of a report* (health warning – it's in The Nation) on the death by shooting of a Dusit zoo employee is this:
"In a separate interview, Bangkok Erawan Centre Dr.Pongphet Kamjornkitjakarn said Mana [the zoo employee] appeared on the fatality list, but the cause of death is pending the Dusit Police Station's investigation.
A source at the centre noted that the identification process is quite complicated. Among casualties believed to be the red-shirt demonstrators were soldiers in disguise. For a reason, they were identified as protesters. Meanwhile, some protesters do not carry the identification cards."
If the part I have bold-emphasised is to be taken at face value (allowing for the fractured English), then the hospitals are likely to be a major source of crucial information – not only as to the nature of the wounds but also what kind of ID was found on the bodies….. if that information is allowed to come out.
* http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/04/15/national/Keeper-shot-dead-at-zoo-believed-a-victim-of-polit-30127197.html
this video was posted by author only today, recorded from the cover.
I won't be surprised that it'll be taken off pretty soon.
it shows soldiers repeatedly beating fallen protester, saying "I'll shoot you m*f* ! " author claims that this video was never seen anywhere before, because he has recorded it himself. also later soldiers seen shooting directly at protesters (rifles in horizontal position)
this rather reminds of old footages of 6 Oct 1976 massacre of studenst at Thammasat Uni (full 2+ hours version here – see parts 2-8 in related vdos; there are also 8 vdos of 14 October 1973 events)
Someone has post this clips
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlHUZZIKXOc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wu6LCuCAvzU
Can see the the 2nd Infantry Division is in disarray, they were shooting randomly everywhere which I would assume they were shooting at the "Black Troop".
FredKorat
Thought you might like to see this link:
http://2bangkok.com/10/100414SituationUpdate.shtml
QUOTE Are the Red Shirt protests all about a "people power" uprising?
The protests now, whatever the overall legitimate social and economic aspirations they reflect for the rural poor, are being run on the ground for very prosaic and immediate political goals: to engineer a situation in which Thaksin can return to Thailand and be pardoned. The snipers, the bombs at power stations, Sah Daeng and his shadowy supporters, are all a part of an immediate Machiavellian political game.
The unintended consequence is that Thaksin appears to have created a real rural movement that could be driven by progressive ideas and not controlled by Shinawatra family patronage. How this new power influx will be integrated into Thailand's rapidly changing political system is anyone's guess.
In any case, both Thaksin and his lawyers have several times stated they could end the movement completely if the government gives in to Thaksin's demands. So at least Thaksin is under the impression that he has the on and off switch for the movement. It is likely that this also drives various Red Shirt faction leaders to steer their own course so that they cannot someday be shut down if Thaksin gets his way.
So we have both a nascent political grassroots block that could have enormous political implications in the future, but on the ground today, a political drama involving traditional political figures jousting for the immediate spoils of the country. UNQUOTE
"Tarrin // Apr 14 As much as I want to agree with you on the non-violence point. However, history has taught us times and again that no democracy can be "acquire" without bloodshed."
You have forgotten the many that have already died since 1932. How ironic they should die for a cause in which the much of the current leadership haven't yet figured out just who or what they are working for.
The biggest problem is that most of the redshirts are still playing the childish games of the money politics party-party world in which they began their careers in deviousness.
So are they engaged in a cop-out, are they just plain incompetent or is this all just a flat-out cynical power grab? Elements of all three by the looks of things. If people HAD to die, it would have been better if they had died for a cause that had some vision beyond rehabilitating their hero.
Of course, we do already know they may be on the point of ditching him. Something they should have done years ago. They may think they have been using him and his money, but its obvious that he still thinks he can control them. And having used the redshirts to get what he wants, maybe it doesn't matter any more if they eventually turn against him. By then he may have secured the necessary foothold for a proxy Peua Thai government. Peua Thai MPs know exactly what they want out of all this, as most of them are the moneyseeking flip-flops of Thai politics. Ideology isn't really their bag. These are the 'loyalists' who will take over when the goon squads have done their work.
Wonder how long it will take the three stooges to figure they have been fooled yet again?
one of the most recent videos about Apr 10 :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLqLXgfQ7yU
red-shirts trying to help some wounded soldier & get shot at (in the end camera man is shot too ?)
somewhat useful Crispin's analysis on Asia Times :
Thailand mulls a 'half coup'
"Apocalypse Now", Thai-Style:
One eye witness report of the operation against the Red Shirts on April 10 [posted on http://weareallhuman.net/index.php?showtopic=46632%5D claims that the military played the King's songs (р╣Ар╕Юр╕ер╕З "р╕Юр╕гр╕░р╕гр╕▓р╕Кр╕Щр╕┤р╕Юр╕Щр╕Шр╣М") through loud-speakers while a helicopter dropped tear gas canisters onto the demonstrators.
Can anyone confirm this?
UPDATED: Deadly Protests in Bangkok | Legal Nomads
[…] – There is a long fiirst-hand account of the violence near Khao San by Nicolas Day at New Mandala: War at Khao San – Nirmal Ghosh on the Spiral of Violence in Bangkok yesterday. – The New York Times on […]
Nicholas Day, Guest Contributor