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Indie Board Game Designers Podcast
Educate & Inspire Aspiring Game Designers
#3 – Daniel George
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Patrick Rauland: Hello everyone, and welcome to the Indie Board Game Designers Podcast. Today we're going to be talking with Daniel George, who is the designer behind Treasure Mountain, which is a worker placement and tile laying game where you play dwarf miners, and it's on Kickstarter right now and it'll end in just a couple days. Daniel, welcome to the show.
Daniel George: Hey, thanks for having me.
Patrick Rauland: Awesome. As of right now, I think you've got 10 days left, and you just about doubled your Kickstarter goal, so first of all, congrats on that.
Daniel George: Thank you very much, it's good to win once and awhile.
Patrick Rauland: That's awesome. How did you get into board games and board game design?
Daniel George: Back in the late '70s, my sister brought home D&D, of all things, when I was in 6th or 7th grade. I got really into Dungeons and Dragons in junior high school, and that kind of led to me doing two things. One, I jammed a lot because nobody else wanted to do it, and I think there's kind of an element of creating your own stories for players when you do that. At that same time, I got into a lot of Avalon Hill games like Advanced Squad, Squad Leader, Panzer Blitz, a lot of the military things, and from there, I just never stopped gaming.
Patrick Rauland: That's great. You know, I think I got into D&D young too, but I could have sworn like a long time ago, wasn't there like an intro to D&D, and they had like a prebuilt map and a prebuilt story? I could have sworn, I know as a kid I played some like intro to D&D system, and it totally got me hooked.
Daniel George: I don't know how old you were, but I used to do, I think I started out, there was a basic like a blue box, and then there's a pink box. Yeah, it might have had some adventures on rails in there, but yeah, it had the little dice with crayons. You had to make your own numbers, you know the whole thing. Yeah, it was cool.
Patrick Rauland: Cool. Treasure Mountain looks like a giant game. There are lots of, I'm gonna say, overlapping mechanics and a ton of components. Did you design a giant game from the start, or did it evolve that way?
Daniel George: Well, my design philosophy is make the games that I want to play, and I love bits. No, I always say to my wife, "God, if I would just design games that would be like a lot less bits, I'd actually maybe make some money." No, I mean it seems like it has a lot going on. I think that when I first started doing designing, I made really complex, historically accurate … I was really into historical, and then in time I realized, after 30 years now of design, that simple is better, like simple and elegant design is really the way to go. It looks complex, but really the core mechanics behind Treasure Mountain, even though there's a lot going on, a lot of bits to play with, at its core it's pretty simple, and it's been boiled down pretty well, I think.
Patrick Rauland: Yeah, cool. Okay, so but did you start with like more rules and more complexity or did you start simple?
Daniel George: You know, I don't always follow the same process, but this game was a game I started more than seven years ago, and it started as a simple Excel model. I used to be a programmer, so everything I build is based on a mathematical model, and of building kind of a research collection model. There's been elements I've subtracted from the game, but now they're in the expansion that's also on Kickstarter with it, but it started out pretty tight from the beginning. I think the thing that made the game different, and if I could talk about my wife who has the co-design credit on this, the game was just about a dwarf mining game, and I liked it, but it was a little dry, I felt.
Daniel George: My wife and I actually played Kingsburg, God, must have been five years ago, or maybe four years ago, anyway, Kingsburg has that, if you've ever played Kingsburg before, has an element where the end of the year, a season, a monster will attack. It was just the fact, like that's exactly what Treasure Mountain needed, I went back immediately and dusted off my old designs. I got many, many old designs in my garage in boxes, dusted it out, and that's what the game needed.
Daniel George: What it has is that it has a dragon element, where certain spaces on the board are juicy, it's a worker placement, they give you immediate resources without spending anything, however, every time you use one of those spaces, you roll a die and you can move the dragon up this track. When it gets to the top of the track, the dragon awakes and attacks all the players, so everybody gets attacked. It's like this push your luck thing, and that opened up the game. I guess that's added complexity to the game, but it was over a very long period of time.
Patrick Rauland: Yeah, but that's great. Also, I can totally see that being fun, and it totally fits into The Hobbit, where like the dwarves, they dug too deep, and then there's the ark and stuff … Well, I haven't read that book in so many years.
Daniel George: Yeah, I mean, I guess you know I always liked dwarves and I always liked dwarves, and I always liked orcs, and I like mining games, and the way you do tile placement and the collection of the gems, you do feel like a dwarf. I mean, one thing, I'm big on theme. Theme really, if you have a really heavy theme, I think people love that.
Patrick Rauland: I totally agree, I totally agree. All right, so let's just say a new designer is listening to this, would you recommend they start with a game with this many components, with this, I don't wanna say "complexity" because you said it's simple, but like the amount of interlocking pieces?
Daniel George: I would just say this to anybody who wants to design, and this is the advice to take: design the game that you want to play, and whether it's simple or it's complex, right? So that, when all is said and done, you can't start out thinking, "I'm going to make this game, and I'm going to get published, and I'm going to sell a million copies, and I'm going to get all this money." People don't need to think that far ahead. I just say, "Look, make the game that you want to play," and I made many, many games I was the only people of my friends who ever played it for years, and it was still a win. You know, is it more complex and harder to make a more complex game? Yes, but it's also very difficult to make an elegant game too.
Patrick Rauland: Sure, sure sure.
Daniel George: Like Dominion, for example, brilliant in its elegance, right? You know, obviously there's lots of complexity been added since. So to answer your question, just make the game that you want to play, whether it be complex or not.
Patrick Rauland: I actually really like that, because I think the part of game design that I like most is both giving feedback to other designers on their games, and trying to interpret people's feedback. Because I feel like I'm building a language, you know what I mean? Like I'm coming up with words or phrases, or learning about it in this podcast or this book. That, I really, really enjoy. I don't actually like the play testing part, but I really enjoy all the discussion about … Every bit of everyone's game is really fun, so I think that's probably why I do it, so that's awesome advice. I don't think I realized I had that much fun doing it.
Daniel George: You have to have fun.
Patrick Rauland: Yeah, cool.
Daniel George: Fun is absolutely critical, and you're right, play testing can be a drag. I get it.
Patrick Rauland: Yeah.
Daniel George: But it's necessary. You have to play test.
Patrick Rauland: All right, so about how many hours did you spend on Treasure Mountain, going back seven years?
Daniel George: Oh God. Well, I tend to be a designer that … I mean, I literally probably start 20 designs a year, I just come up with ideas. Like I'm driving down the road, and I'll be like, I see a rabbit, "I want to make a game about hitting rabbits on the freeway," whatever, I mean just crazy ideas come out of nowhere, right? Like so I come up with a lot of ideas and little mechanic thoughts, and I bank them away. I create this, you know and I always talk about how like I tell people, I fail a lot. They go, "Oh your designs are so good." No, failed 100 times before it got to this.
Daniel George: There was a quote about somebody saying, "The key to success is failing faster", which is true for game design, and there's always a lesson to learn with every design you've made. If I can give you an example, there's a game I came up with a ridiculously crazy theme where … This was, God, five years ago, six years ago, where everybody's a sexually transmitted disease fighting over the body of a sailor on shore leave, right? You're trying to make the sailor go to the dirtiest bars and drink drinks and do horrible things. What's funny, the theme was amazing, except the mechanics did not match the theme. The mechanics were like serious and it just didn't work, so I banked that aside.
Daniel George: Then I came up, there's this other game I'm working on called Brew Kingdom, it's the working title. I took the engine of that game, plugged it into Brew Kingdom, worked perfectly. Yeah, I mean sometimes you make something, and you come back years later and it works. That's like arrows in your quiver, you learn tricks. That's why some designers, their games have similar things, like Feld has certain things in his games that you see across into different games.
Patrick Rauland: Yep, that's such a great example and such a great point, right? I think I got into game design, I think I started thinking about it over probably like a year and a half ago, and I probably got into like a year ago, and I've just been banking ideas in Evernote, just like every idea goes into Evernote, and I try to add at least a few sentences for each idea.
Daniel George: Yeah.
Patrick Rauland: I don't know when I'm going to use them, but I'm confident at some point I'm going to use, I don't want to say "most", but I'm going to use those ideas, they're going to be useful.
Daniel George: Yeah, and I also, there's something else I'd say to some people. I go to a lot of protospiels and people ask me a lot of questions, don't be afraid to use a mechanic in an existing game, because there's nothing new. I used to be into writing plays when I was in college, and I remember my play-writing professor said the first thing that he ever said was, "Everything that you're going to write has already been written, so don't worry about it. Just make the story you want to tell," and that kind of applied to board gaming as well, I guess I carried that lesson over. You know, play lots of games, bank your ideas, and don't worry about it.
Daniel George: You can even make a clone of a game, if it's just for you to have fun. It doesn't make a difference. Eventually you'll learn, you'll get better at it, and you'll come up with something that maybe you can sell.
Patrick Rauland: Well, okay so that brought me to a question I wasn't planning on asking, but so one of the things I sort of did unintentionally is, I actually started modifying the games that I have, because there are a couple of games where like, "Ugh, this car is unbalanced, or this thing doesn't work," and then we would have house rules, and for the most part they seemed to work pretty well. I'm curious, would you recommend that to new, aspiring game designers?
Daniel George: You nailed it, that's the first thing I ever did. The first thing I guess "board game design" I ever made was taking the original version of Axis and Allies. We thought it wasn't complex enough, so I came up with this whole system that's economic and oil and different resources, and we put stickers on the maps. In fact, I even ordered extra boards from the manufacturer, back in the days when you'd have to lick a stamp and you sent them a check for $12, and they send you an extra board. Yeah, I think modification design is an amazing … Like there's a game I have that's coming out in the fall, and I sent it to a play test group. One of the play tester's 13-year-old sons wants to do game design, and he has an idea for an expansion for my game. I said, "Make it, please, do it." That's the best way to start, absolutely agree with you.
Patrick Rauland: That's really cool, and actually creating an expansion is probably even, like so maybe modifying a game first, then maybe create an expansion for your favorite game, and then try to make your own game. Yeah, that's a great idea.
Daniel George: I wish the internet existed back in 1980-something, where you can actually produce anything now, and put it up on Board Game Geek or put it up on a website for free in a PDF format. I mean, you know like I said, you can't start out, you're not going to make a lot of money, but at least it gets your designs out there. There's so many great stuff out there, I frequently download all sorts of stuff online, people's games or ideas or books or role-playing supplements that are free. I mean, it's an amazing time to get your ideas out there.
Patrick Rauland: It is absolutely amazing. I have one game, it's at the prototype stage and I have it on the Game Crafter, and it's a micro-game, but it costs $7 for, like it looks professional. That's insane that on-demand I upload some pieces of artwork, and I think rounded up it's $8 to have a professional micro-game made, which that's crazy.
Daniel George: It's awesome, and you'll get like 50 cents.
Patrick Rauland: Yes.
Daniel George: That's probably about right. Yeah, I mean again, you know I just tell people another quote. We used to have a band when I was in high school, and our quote of the band was, "Don't let the lack of talent prevent you from the sheer joy of creativity." That's another thing too, people have a lot of self doubt. Don't worry about it, just have fun, go through the process. I mean, there's always going to be someone richer, better looking, and a better designer than you. As soon as you get over that, then you start having fun.
Patrick Rauland: That's awesome. All right, so I think this is your second published game on Kickstarter, right?
Daniel George: Yeah, I did a few games with Z-Man a long time ago. I never had a desire to publish anything I'd ever written, I just did it myself, like I would go to KublaCon, which is one of my favorite cons, and I would do historical miniature gaming. Every year I did my own historicals, and I used to do them and I had my group of people I'd meet with year after year. My daughter and I submitted a design, my daughter was eight at the time, we co-designed the little game and it won the KublaCon game design contest, and a publisher said, "You want to publish games?" I'm like, "Wow, that was kind of fun, maybe I should do that again."
Daniel George: That was about 10 years ago, but yes, you know I've wanted to self publish for a long time, but yes, this is the second project I've self published on Kickstarter.
Patrick Rauland: Now that you've had two games, one already funded, one will successfully fund, what would you change about, you know if you could take all the knowledge you have now and take it back 10 years or whatever, whenever you started game design, what would you change?
Daniel George: You know, I wouldn't change a whole lot. I tend to think the process I went through was fun. I would say, yeah, not much. I had a great time, I would say probably even design more, you know?
Patrick Rauland: Yeah, that's great, cool. Okay, so are there any games out there that sort of inspire you, or maybe game designers?
Daniel George: Yeah, you know it's a funny thing about being a chronic game designer, is I don't play as many games as I like, you know what I mean? I go through cycles, where sometimes I won't design for two years at a time, and then I play all sorts of games. I feel like I'm in a bubble that's a few years behind, but games that I recently played that I really love is like Great Western Trail, I really think that's an interesting design, I think Castles of Burgundy gets not enough love, Lords of Vegas, which gets no love. You know to me, I guess to me I don't have a particular designer I love, but I love games that have fun. Those games are all games that I think, you know Wits & Wagers is a very simple game, but every time I pull it out, people have a great time.
Daniel George: Yeah, I guess to answer your question, my favorite designer? Stefen Feld is pretty good, Jamey Stegmaier, yeah, probably like his stuff has been really consistent over the years, I think.
Patrick Rauland: Totally, that's great. Yeah, so I have one of those tiny Button Shy games that I now carry it in my backpack or in my pocket wherever I go. It's an improv game, I think it's called Movie Plotz.
Daniel George: Ooh, great.
Patrick Rauland: That game is so simple, like I remember I was waiting for a friend once, and I played with the bartender at a bar, like you know what I mean?
Daniel George: Perfect.
Patrick Rauland: It was so incredibly simple, it was like, "All right, one sentence story, and now we just keep modifying the story with every card." It was so cool to have, and it was so fun. That was the whole point, like it was fun, incredibly simple, I could bring it with me in my pocket. Yeah, cool, games that are fun.
Daniel George: Games that are fun. I mean really, people sometimes forget, I think people care so much about rating games and ranking games, like the Board Game Geek score, people put a lot of stock in that, but I don't know, there are a lot of games that have a 7.5 or a seven or a 6.5 on Board Game Geek that I had a great time, because it's the people you play with I think probably define the fun more than the mechanics.
Patrick Rauland: Totally, and I don't want to … Hold on, I'm just debating. No, I won't out this specific game, but just it's one of the ones in the top five on Board Game Geek right now. I tried it, and I didn't like it. I thought I would love it, and I got into it and I was like, "You know what? Not for me," I didn't have fun.
Daniel George: You've got to give me a hint, because I'm curious if it's the same game that I have the exact same feeling about.
Patrick Rauland: I will say that there's a lot of setup for this game.
Daniel George: It's not the number one-rated, or two rated game number … It rhymes with Gloomhaven, is that it?
Patrick Rauland: Maybe.
Daniel George: I have it. Let's say we were talking about Gloomhaven right now.
Patrick Rauland: Okay, theoretically.
Daniel George: I would say that I would share your opinion, but it's so brilliant and the bits are so amazing-
Daniel George: Well, let's just take Gloomhaven, you don't have to, I will say it. I would say that it's a little higher ranked than I would put it, however it has some really good mechanics, but to me I didn't feel like it was as compelling as Pandemic Legacy for a legacy experience. I'm sorry, I guess I shouldn't have outed you, but I would tend to agree with you, it's a little high. I mean, I think you know there's a lot of … Like Twilight Struggle, by the way, was number one for a long time, I love that game. That was one of the first games I played with my wife, I love that game, I felt like it deserved it, but I think Cult of the New kind of pushes games sometimes higher up than maybe they should be.
Patrick Rauland: Totally, totally agree. Cool, so okay, we talked about some games you like, are there any games that you didn't like at first, but you eventually grew into them?
Daniel George: I have a prime example. I used to do, I had a podcast and I reviewed Scythe. I did not like it at all at first, because I think it was an integration of theme and mechanics for me, like I wanted those giant robots to fight. I was just like, "These are giant robots, they have guns, they should be fighting." Though there is fighting in the game, it's not a fighting game, and I think that I played it, and I was like, "Okay." Then I played it again, and now it's probably one of my top 20 games, just because I got over the theme thing. I think that integration of theme and mechanics for me as a player and a designer is important.
Daniel George: Yeah, there was a couple games that actually I would say the inverse happened too, where at first I liked it, and the more I played it, I was like, "Eh, I don't like it as much," you know there was holes in it. Again, games have a lifespan, nobody can play a game 1,000 times, though I'm sure some people have, maybe Magic. Yeah, a game has a lifespan, and then you move on, there's a lot of good choices out there.
Patrick Rauland: Yeah, I don't know if I like this or dislike it, but you're totally right, games do have a lifespan. At a certain point, you sort of, some games you can figure them out, you know what I mean? Then it feels like tic-tac-toe, where there's like an obvious best move, and you just make that move and it doesn't feel like a game anymore.
Daniel George: Yeah, like I mean [inaudible 00:19:57] is a great game, and I still love it by the way, but once we kind of figured out the mathiness of it, it became not as interesting, because I think sometimes the fun is about discovery. It's still a great game, by the way, and I would recommend anybody to buy it, but that's a game that's right in front of me on the wall, like I'm looking at, where I had that same experience with my wife.
Patrick Rauland: Interesting, interesting, cool. All right, so we talked a little bit about underappreciated games, but I'm guessing, do you have a favorite underappreciated game?
Daniel George: Well, underappreciated game, that's a great question. God, I have so many games that I … I have an issue, I am a poor game designer as far as …. Well, a board game design reviewer, I should say, as I can see the value in most games, and I love a lot of games. Like I love a lot of games for different reasons, but you know if I was going to take the overall fun factor, which is the only thing that really matters to me, I love Lords of Vegas. I don't know if you've played Lords of Vegas before.
Patrick Rauland: No.
Daniel George: It is a game, I think Mayfair I think does it, and basically it's early 1950s in Las Vegas, you're all kind of casino bosses trying to make your way and build casinos on the Las Vegas strip. It's got a lot of luck, but what it's about, it's like you building these casinos, but you can take over other people's casinos by getting your guys in there and muscling in. It's a very very simple game, but the game has the best stories. Like my wife will still, years later my wife will still bring this up, she had this giant casino, a certain number of tiles, the more tiles, the more points, the more money, and I had a minority share, I had one square in there, and everybody has dice per square, you roll a D6. Whoever has the highest D6 value is the boss.
Daniel George: Everybody gets profits, but you get the boss. Well, she rolled all ones for six times, and I rolled like a three, so [crosstalk 00:21:57], and it made me win the game as a result of it. You know again, some people may not like that, the swing in this, but there's a million stories like that that go the opposite way, and we use poker chips. The only criticism I have with the game is it comes with paper money, and I never even opened it, I threw it out. You've got to get poker chips, and you bet into these little casinos. Sorry, again, that's a long answer for a short question, but it's a game I just love. We only play it once a year, we play it at KublaiCon, we were playing this weekend. The first thing my son said when I was packing games, "Are you bringing Lords of Vegas?"
Patrick Rauland: That sounds great, and I actually, dice are like such a … Well, let me ask you this. What do you think of output randomness, which in your case it sounds like you shouldn't have won that, but you did, just the luck was in your favor.
Daniel George: Well, let's talk about my philosophy for game design.
Patrick Rauland: Yeah, let's do it.
Daniel George: You know, I get a couple old games, let's talk about the two last games from last year and this year, which first is Dragon Brew, it's a fantasy beer brewing game, no luck. It is worker placement, pure Euro, pretty heavy, you know what I mean? Like it's a game that has an IP, very little luck involved, but I love it, like it's just a game I love to play. Dragon Brew has that kind of Euro feel. Treasure Mountain has a dice element, where you roll dice when you fight the dragon, so the dragon is going to have a hidden value which it could peak at, and let's say it's a five.
Daniel George: When the dragon attacks everybody, everybody gets to roll a die, and it has to be equal to or greater than the dragon, and if you lose, you lose half your treasure, blah blah blah. However, what I added to the game is luck mitigation, you can buy axes. For every ax you buy, you can spend it and increase your thing. Luck all by itself that's blind and dumb, yes, I hate it, but having the ability to do luck mitigation … By the way, now you've got temple space you can do re-rolls, in my expansion I have spells, so I don't mind luck because luck is excitement, but I think not having luck mitigation with that is okay for a short game. Like there are some short games that are silly that have luck, but if you play a four-hour game, and you lose the last turn because of a bad die roll, and it's just because of that, ti's a horrible experience.
Patrick Rauland: Totally agree.
Daniel George: It also works the other way, like the game of Diplomacy, and I call it the Game of Broken Relationships, where it's a six-hour game where one thing that's beyond your control, somebody backstabbing you, and you lose the game, that also has a negative. I think there's this thing about control of your destiny, the least control you have, the shorter the game should be, if that makes sense.
Patrick Rauland: No, I totally agree. Yeah, with small games I think it's very easy to … I'm just trying to think of the right word, but yeah, if it's a five-minute game and it ends with like if I get a +1 on a D6 roll and you get a -1 because I did something better, and then whoever rolls higher wins, like I'm fine with that for a five-minute game, you know what I mean?
Patrick Rauland: But yeah, if it's a longer game, then you want to have more control, totally get it.
Daniel George: Yeah, people do not like that.
Patrick Rauland: Okay, so I'm curious, so when I look at your game, I see a lot of components. I'm curious, so one of the questions I'm asking people is, what is the thing that you spent money on that was the best ROI for you? Like when you spend money designing a game, what gives you the most happiness in return?
Daniel George: Boy, that's a great question. Two things, so the user interface of a game, like that board, like I do my graphic design, I hired an artist, I have a great artist and I love him. He's flying out from Canada to KublaiCon this weekend, I'll give him a shout out, Mac, he's a great guy. The creating of the user interface, I know it's a creation process, I love that interface, but as far as just pure money, I just love those gems in the game. That's those little cheap-
Patrick Rauland: Really?
Daniel George: Acrylic gems. There's something about stacking those gems, like you pull them out of your mining, they're a big pile in front of you, and that dragon's coming, you're afraid, and you feel like a dwarf because you're greedy. You're like, "Don't take my gems, because they're points," and this dragon is coming and you feel nervous. That's the fun part of the game, where to me, I know it ties back to the mechanics, but that stack of gems you have, that visceral feeling of stacking your coins and your gold. The only resources in the game are beer, gold, and gems, and axes, there's nothing more dwarfy than that. Gems are just something I like.
Patrick Rauland: Yeah no, that's great. I think that's one of the best things that's come out of this board game revolution in the last couple years, for lack of a better word, like the components quality on most games is just insane.
Daniel George: Yes.
Patrick Rauland: Because I think five, 10 years ago, yeah, 10 years ago for sure, five years ago most likely it would just be plastic gems, they'd probably be little paper tokens with the colors on them. The higher quality components in games now is just awesome. All right, so question for you. I see you have a couple sort of unlockable components, upgrades.
Patrick Rauland: I'm going to ask, so it seems like you like nice components, like I see the beer barrels is just basically like an octagonal crown tag, why aren't they beer things from the start?
Daniel George: Money, it's just you've got to get enough backers, right?
Daniel George: You know, the Kickstarter model for small publishers is very tight, the margins are tight, because when you're printing, there's a high fixed cost, like thousands of dollars of artwork, so your first copy of your game costs, you know let's say $5,000 on art, which is low, I think, $5,000. Your first game costs you $5,010, and your next game is going to cost you 25 … You know what I mean? You've got to divide that fixed number by the number of games that you sell. That's the first thing, not tension marketing dollars, I don't even count my time, again because we're having fun, so we don't worry about that. It is fun for me to break even, that's always my goal every year, and this year we're going to be a little positive. Our last campaign, we did not charge shipping, which was a mistake.
Patrick Rauland: Oh gosh.
Daniel George: Because shipping prices went up in between, so we lost a little bit of money, but again, we didn't care because we had a great time. Yeah, the components I think was just purely a financial thing. For example, we had to unlock metal coins as an add on. We love metal coins, like my friend Greg has like 40 sets of metal coins, or a million sets, you know we love them. We always wanted metal coins for Dragon Brew, which is my old game. Dragon Brew and Treasure Mountain are in the same universe, and we always kind of tie our games together, so we wanted coins you could use for either game.
Daniel George: The reason it's an add on but we didn't want to add that add on until we got kind of at least got close to 150% funded, was because we needed a certain number of backers to buy the coins to break even. [inaudible 00:29:16], that's why that's an example of a bit that we could have offered from the beginning, but the problem is if 20 people ordered sets of coins, the minimum order is 200 sets of coins, we'd be stuck with 180 sets of coins, which actually in Greg's case may be a positive for him.
Patrick Rauland: Yeah, Greg would save money, he'd be buying in bulk.
Daniel George: He would save a lot of money. Yeah, that's everything we do is like that. Stretch goals are a combination of marketing a little bit, because you want to have that carrot, but really more so … Well first of all, people expect stretch goals, but even if without it, we've just got to have that funding level. We hit that, we're hitting that figure, like right around 55, that's when like okay, if everything starts to divide down, the margins are tight enough that we can't even really offer much of a wholesale deal. Again, I do have a package that I sell to retails at very little market, like I make less money on a whole case of games for a retailer than one copy to a regular person-
Patrick Rauland: Wow.
Daniel George: Only because I want to support brick and mortar stores. That's a huge thing for me is that, again, financially maybe it's not the best thing to do. I also don't have, the people that own stores don't have to pay the invoice for that game until a month before it ships, because I know what it's like to be a small business, especially to be a game store, where you don't want to put $300 down on a wholesale order, and not be able to sell those games for six months. Again, it ties back to fun for me, is that since we don't have to feed our children with this money, it gives you the freedom to make those fun decisions, where if I don't have to pay the mortgage, then I can say, "Look, you don't have to pay me until right before you ship, or we can offer these coins at break even, or we can have these bits."
Daniel George: Now, if we sold $1 million worth of games, then we would be making some money. That would be great, but you can't expect it.
Patrick Rauland: Totally. Wow, this is awesome. Okay, so I want to ask you a couple specific questions. I see you canceled the first version of this Kickstarter, and you just relaunched. Can you tell me a little bit about why, why do that?
Daniel George: This is a lesson learned. We did Dragon Brew last year, we did $50,000 for our first Kickstarter, which was great, we did great. We had 800-something backers, and maybe like naively so, we figured, "Oh, we'll get at least half those backers back in the next game." Well, the games are different themed, so we did not pre-market as much as we could, so that's the first mistake on us, that's our error that we made. The second thing is that years ago, now here's the thing about the Kickstarter world, the conditions are changing constantly.
Daniel George: Like three years ago, four years ago, you didn't have these companies that were just using Kickstarter as their sole distribution, like and that's what happened in February. It used to be kind of the slow month, apparently now it's the hot month, because you get everything before Christmas. Well Batman, which here's the thing, I backed that game, Batman did-
Patrick Rauland: I did too.
Daniel George: I bought everything, I think I spent $470. I love it.
Patrick Rauland: Oh my God.
Daniel George: I know. Here's the thing, I did Conan, and Conan, I love that game, they did that game a few years ago. That game uses the same system, we love that system, and I know I'm giving advertising for it, it's a great system. Again, fun, really simple, in fact my son and his video game-playing friends had never played a board game like this. I broke out Conan, and every time they come now, "Can we play Conan?", and that's a win, like that's just a win for me. Anyway, Batman used the same system, only Batman did millions of dollars, and there was Fireball Island, all these big campaigns, and it just drained the oxygen out of the room.
Daniel George: Now, we would have funded, we would have gotten about 35, which would have been fine, we would have actually maybe lost a little bit but made it up on the backend, but then we wouldn't have had all the stretch goals, and we wanted those bits. Like Greg needs his coins, you know what I mean?
Patrick Rauland: Greg needs his coins.
Daniel George: Greg needs his coins,
Patrick Rauland: And you need [crosstalk 00:33:27].
Daniel George: I do, and that was the most difficult decision, because you're basically saying I failed, but you know I tend not to beat myself up, so I thought, "Look, you know what? Let's take this as an opportunity to learn." This is advice to people out there that want to do their own Kickstarter: talk to your backers. We asked our backers, I mean we wrote personal messages to almost every single one saying, "What do you like, what didn't you like, what should we have different, what did you want?" Kind of the main things that came out of that was our price point was fine, our value was good, they wanted more videos of the play through.
Daniel George: Great, so we were able to do that. They wanted expansion immediately, so that was the big thing. I had this expansion that I had been working on in my head and a little bit on paper, and I figured, "Well, I've got six more months." It was pretty much done, because it was elements I had removed from the game originally, so I knew it was easy to get them back in there, but you want to do the graphics and the art. Luckily, because I am somebody that chronically prepares, Mac, my artist, had already started the art on this. Like I do my art six months prior, which is a little bit crazy, but you know I'd like to have everything done, because it helps me when I see that art, it inspires me to design. That makes your play testing sessions good.
Daniel George: Anyway, so we did that, we polished up that expansion. We came back to the table with more videos, and the expansion, that's really essentially it. We did some more pre-marketing too. Our estimates were that about, we figured a third of the people, maybe half would get, and the expansion was only $20, and it's a value. Like we make very little money on the expansion, but again, we make a little bit, so again it's like, when you go to McDonald's, they used to have the super size thing, every little bit is an incremental thing, your fixed cost, everything's already there. Anyway, we rolled it out, and as of today, 90% of our backers got the expansion, which blew us away.
Daniel George: Blew us away, because it adds magic to the game, it adds dwarf runes. I know it was a long answer to a short question, it's that we asked our backers what they wanted, and they responded. Yeah.
Patrick Rauland: That's awesome. I guess I have a question, you said the landscape on Kickstarter is always changing, my question is, how do you know when the Batman game is going to launch, or the Fireball Island game is going to launch? Because I think Batman was $3 million, and I think Fireball Island, was that two?
Daniel George: $2 million, and there was a couple other million dollar, there was, and again, I backed a lot of these games, the Merry Men one, that did a million, right?
Patrick Rauland: Yep.
Daniel George: It's hard to compete with that, you know?
Patrick Rauland: Yeah, and so Batman, I think the minimum pledge was $140, so anyone who buys Batman is now $140 down on any other board games they can buy that month. How do you predict that and not launch that week or that month, or launch two weeks before that happens? Crystal ball?
Daniel George: Well, you could pay attention, I mean there are people out there, like I knew that it was going to launch, and we knew it was a risk, you don't know what's going to be a hit though. Here's the thing that I think is happening in Kickstarter, because I had a couple people reach out to me, they saw that I rebooted. Every time you reboot, people ask questions, and I have an open door policy, like I will literally help anybody. I had somebody in Australia who launched that same time, didn't make it, he called me and said, "What did you …", you know we had a Skype call. We had a great conversation, and I'm more than happy to share information with anybody.
Daniel George: The bottom line is you just, the level of professionalism, the level of quality in your video, your graphic design, your images, is just high now. I remember, you know five years ago, Kickstarter was like, the minimum bar was a guy sat there at a table, self-shot his video and said, "Hey, I got this game, it's really cool, you should back it." Now there's like animation, and Hollywood-level production and special … I mean, it's like insane.
Patrick Rauland: And voice actors, right?
Patrick Rauland: Like, "In a world …", you know what I mean?
Daniel George: I hired somebody to do my video for me. We got to the point where like, "We just can't do it. We can do our own videos, like play through videos, et cetera." Yeah, a guy, he was a fellow game designer, and I found out this network of friends that we've just got to know each other, and yeah, he did the video, I paid him to do that. You have to, and that's the thing I talk about changing the marketplace, is that the level of quality to make an impact is really high. I feel like our Kickstarter is small, I mean really in the scope of the world, we succeed, I heard that 40% succeed now, I don't know the recent stats, so we feel like, "Yeah, we did great, we certainly are in there, but we're not certainly the experts on this."
Daniel George: To get where even we're at, the amount of money and labor and effort to be at that level is high. Can I mention something? I don't remember if we talked about this off-air or not, about dollars spent.
Patrick Rauland: Yeah yeah yeah.
Daniel George: It's hard to get those ROI and those marketing dollars when there's just some things out there that are just sucking everything, you know and we have some marketing dollars we spend, we don't spend a tremendous amount. We find that Facebook is actually pretty effective if you build, like our page, like we have a social stretch goal about liking our page and following our page. Well, you can market to those groups of people now in future campaigns, and those seem to be very very effective, because they're people that already are your customers. Or mailing list, we have a mailing list we've built at game conventions over the years.
Daniel George: We did a kick track ad, it was fine, I mean it wasn't like, "Wow," but we would do it again. Versus Board Game Geek, and I'm not talking bad about Board Game Geek, because maybe our game, when we did Dragon Brew, didn't really pan out for us. It was okay, but it was not like what other people get. The best marketing you can do, and I would say this, and it does have a cost, is get your game out there in as many people's hands. One thing, we sent out 20 copies of Treasure Mountain, each copy cost, to make a prototype, not counting shipping, 120-something dollars.
Patrick Rauland: Oh boy.
Daniel George: No, [inaudible 00:39:46] prototype, but it's just very expensive.
Patrick Rauland: That's $2,000, wow.
Daniel George: That's right, so we spent, in setting up, but let me tell you, if we would have spent that in Facebook advertising, it would not have been as effective as getting it out there in everybody's hands.
Patrick Rauland: Yeah. Okay, so let me just ask you, like what does that do? Because like so here's my very first thought: "That's 20 people who won't buy your game." That was the first thought I had, but like are they creating videos for you, are they creating play throughs, how do they add value for you?
Daniel George: Exactly.
Patrick Rauland: That sounds really selfish, but-
Daniel George: No no no, not at all. No, first of all, you don't blind send them to people, don't just like send it to random, and say, "Here!" I mean, like [Roddo 00:40:26] did a play through of our game, he did not charge, he did a play through and an honest review of it. Some people do charge, like Undead Viking, I gave him some money, but the value that he added is a professional overview and a play through, and John does games, he charged just a little bit of money. There's certain kind of people that will do play throughs, like John gets games does the best play throughs of any, I watch his play throughs of other games, love the job he does.
Daniel George: I'm a fan, therefore I had him do a play through. There's a certain kind of value in people that are his watchers and watch that and see that, and see the game being played, because watching a game being played, to me, is better than any advertising. I mean, the absolute best is sitting down at a convention and playing it. I have friends and play testers throughout the country, and I send them the game and they take it to the local cons, like it went to Gencon, because people I know went and actually played it. Getting people to play your game is expensive, like for example, Fireball Island, JR Honeycutt, he won a round, their one copy of Fireball Island I believe was $8,000, for that prototype copy, but he traveled around the country, again, spending a lot of money, and went on tour to different game places, and that's one way they built up, kind of thing.
Daniel George: Because people then tag it on social media, and that's really it. I mean, get your game out there, and you should do that anyway in regards to play testing too, blind play testing. When I say that 20, I didn't talk about the other 10 or 15 we sent over the years for play testing too.
Patrick Rauland: Wow, that's so much.
Daniel George: I don't want to scare people, I'm not trying to scare people, because for example, Orctoberfest, which is Dragon Brew Orctoberfest, I had a card version of Dragon Brew, which we're actually printing right now, and it'll come out on Kickstarter in the fall. That game is a micro-game, that game is 100 cards and tokens, well that game cost us like $7 to make a prototype, right?
Daniel George: I mean, maybe this is the argument against maybe starting with the small game, but I think we're talking about the difference between publishing and designing, are two different things.
Patrick Rauland: Totally, totally.
Daniel George: They're two different skillsets. I'm not trying to scare anybody, because here's the bottom line, it's not scary. There's so many fantastic people out there who help. I try to be part of that group, and there are people that I've talked to that helped me, Jamey Stegmaier, he does great blogs, we've Facebook chatted, Michael Coe of the Tiny Epic Series, he was actually a guest on my podcast years ago when he was first starting out, super kind guy, will give you the time, will give you some help. You know, don't be afraid to talk to people and get information, and have some fun.
Patrick Rauland: Awesome. This is all very very useful advice. I've got one sort of game at the end, and then we'll wrap up. Have you ever heard of the underrated/overrated game?
Daniel George: No, but I want to play.
Patrick Rauland: Great. I'm totally stealing it from actually an economic podcast, but that's besides the point. I'm going to give you a concept, and you need to tell me if it's underrated or overrated. If I said "Star Wars", you would say either underrated or overrated, and like a sentence of why. Got it?
Daniel George: Can I answer about Star Wars?
Patrick Rauland: Yes, yes, [crosstalk 00:43:51].
Daniel George: It's overrated, the last movies have been so bad.
Patrick Rauland: Overrated?
Daniel George: Overrated. I've come to the conclusion that I like Star Trek better. Anyway, go ahead.
Patrick Rauland: All right, hold on, wait, Star Wars the original episodes four, five, and six?
Daniel George: Love it, perfect, love it.
Patrick Rauland: Okay, all right. First one, underrated/overrated, solo play modes in games.
Daniel George: Oh my God. Here's the thing, I didn't mention this before, I'll answer and I'll tell you why.
Patrick Rauland: Okay.
Daniel George: It may be underrated, because that's one thing that I forgot to mention before, is that in my expansion for Treasure Mountain is solo play, and it wasn't in the original game. That was one thing that I forgot to mention that people asked for, is solo mode. I had no idea, but I say "underrated", that this solo world exists. I didn't know, I didn't realize how big it was. I played, I mean the first game I ever designed solo mode officially was Treasure Mountain. Now I've designed animus for other games that I have coming out in the next years, but yeah, I had no idea it was so big.
Daniel George: Let me tell you, I had a fun time making that, and playing it actually is actually a lot more fun than I thought, I just didn't know. Like I played Mage Knight solo, because I think it's an amazing solo game, but to me, it's weird because it's like gaming … I'm not saying solo people are weird-
Patrick Rauland: It's a very social activity.
Daniel George: That's right, it's a social activity, and but yet, Conflict of Heroes is another game that's an amazing solo system, because my wife won't play those games, so I have no choice. Okay, sorry, that was a long answer, next.
Patrick Rauland: That's all right, that's okay. All right, Gimli as comic relief in Lord of the Rings, underrated/overrated?
Daniel George: I love dwarves. I would say "underrated", because you should appreciate a humorous dwarf.
Patrick Rauland: Love it, all right. Variable turn order, and by "variable", I just mean it changes from round to round.
Daniel George: I love it, so it's underrated, that's like my thing. Yeah, because again I quote Treasure Mountain, Treasure Mountain, turn order is important because basically you put your dwarves from the smallest beard to the largest beard, and if your beard is longer than somebody else's beard, you can bump them out of a spot and take it. Being last is a disadvantage,. Well, the game-
Patrick Rauland: An advantage, right?
Daniel George: Going last is a disadvantage, because you want to be bumped, because when you get bumped-
Patrick Rauland: Oh, you want to be bumped.
Daniel George: Because you get an extra turn. When you're a one and you get bumped, the guy that gets bumped gets to do something else, so you got to use that worker twice. That was a problem with the design, of like, "Oh my God, what do you do?" Well, when I made it, there's the tavern spaces on the board which you can't bump that essentially set the turn order for the next round, so you have complete control on what your turn order is going to be, you just have to sacrifice a worker. Anyway, but yes, underrated, variable turn order, I love it, but it has to be something that's visually clear on the board. It's tough when you go around, I mean round circle is what I like, but … Anyway, go ahead. Yes, next, I like this game, yes.
Patrick Rauland: Last one, last one, beards, overrated/underrated?
Daniel George: As someone who's a beard forever, underrated, I love a good beard. I mean, the longer the beard, the more you bump, right?
Patrick Rauland: Awesome, awesome. Well hey, thank you so much for being on the show. Daniel, where can people find you online, and where can they find your game, or games?
Daniel George: Yeah, well so you could go to Kickstarter, we end on June 1st, Facebook, you can go August Games, you can Facebook me personally if you're a designer at Daniel Albert George on Facebook. I honestly do not mind, I really do want to help people, I want more games to play. Twitter is @BGandBrew, Board Games and Brew, and I guess my home address, well that'll be something on the side if someone wants to come over and play a game.
Patrick Rauland: Awesome, awesome. Thank you again. By the way, for those of you listening, if you like this podcast and you want to be a dwarf, if you give us a review, I will send Daniel to your house and he will wave a magic dwarf wand, or maybe a rune, and turn you into a dwarf.
Daniel George: And I might bump you, because my beard's bigger.
Patrick Rauland: All right, so thank you guys so much for listening, thanks for being on the show. You can visit my site, indieboardgamedesigners.com, follow me on Twitter @BFTrick. Until next time, happy designing.
Daniel George: Happy designing!
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As you may have noticed from my post, Holiday Road, I am a big fan of road trips. Here are some tips that will help you get started on planning your own mini-adventure.
After our Route 66 trip, Bryan and I started pondering our next road trip destination. We debated going through South Dakota to see Deadwood and maybe even real wild buffalo, or doing a jaunt up the California coast. After a discussion of cities that we had always wanted to visit, as well as wanting to go to New Orleans to visit our good friend Daneel, we settled on a road trip through the South. This decision also served the purpose of checking off a bucket list item for me – visiting Savannah.
When I was in college, my dear friend Amy and I were not like all the other girls. While most of our friends were swooning over Ben Affleck or Matt Damon, Amy and I were infatuated with Kevin Spacey. I will pause here to give you a moment to laugh that out. Because of that infatuation, we ended up watching "Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil" together, and from that moment on, I decided it was my destiny to visit Savannah at least once in my life.
Ok, so we have the region picked. Now what?
Step 1: Look at a map. It's been a while since I have taken geography, so I thought it might be a good idea to ensure that Savannah and New Orleans were both possible to cover during a road trip. So, Step 1…check.
Step 2: Tell everyone you know. Why? Well in our case, when we told my dad about our plans, he suggested we visit what became one of our favorite cities, Charleston, SC. We never would have chosen that stop if it weren't for his suggestion. I also found out that a good friend at work has a sister that lives in Savannah, so she sent me lists of information on tours, restaurants, hotels and general tips that she recommended (as well as places to avoid). You would be surprised who might have interesting information about where you are going, or tips on places that you can't miss. There is nothing better than a personal recommendation.
Step 3: Finalize your route. Once you have your list of recommendations, revisit that map that you looked at in Step 1. Use a map service like Google or AAA TripTik to devise how you might travel that route and then do some research on the in-between parts that you aren't familiar with. In our case, we knew that we would start in Charleston, go to Savannah, and somehow end up in New Orleans. By doing some research, and knowing that I wanted to see as many plantations as possible, we decided that the in-between would be heading up the Antebellum Trail to hopefully catch some historical sections of the pre-Civil War South, spending a night in Athens, GA (home to the University of Georgia), then a night in Montgomery, AL before getting to New Orleans. The route ensured that we would be in the car no longer than five hours on any day, allowing for spontaneous stops at any "Worlds Largest Ball of Yarn" or "World's Best Peach Pie" sites we might encounter.
Step 4: Start booking. If you are the type of person that could simply book your plane and then wing it when you get there, thus having a truly spontaneous experience, I admire you and you should go for it. As you will learn, I am a bit OCD and not capable of that kind of "letting go." So, if you are like me, what you will want to do next is book your plane, car, and hotels. I found that Yelp and TripAdvisor (or whatever trip website you prefer) were excellent in determining where we should stay. In all cases except New Orleans, we had never been to any of the cities. We didn't know where the city center was or where a good place to stay would be.
To determine that, I looked at what the hotels were near, and in our case, we always wanted to be near the historic district. I then scoured my travel site of choice looking for ratings and reviews on hotels. In all cases but one, my husband was wowing at how well I did on the booking. You will have your flops, but those can give you fun memories too. Again, this IS an adventure, right?
Step 5: Stop planning. After I booked the major things (ensuring we had passage to and through our trip as well as a roof over our heads each night), I stopped. This is BIG for me. Usually I would have all the details planned, restaurants researched etc., but I reminded myself that this was supposed to be a fluid trip, where we planned as we went, so I didn't think about the trip again (other than packing) until we got there. In the future I will show you how Yelp and the Concierge in your hotel are your new best friends when it comes to this type of travel.
So, in five easy steps, you can now get started on planning your very own tour de (insert where you are going here).


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Sports betting solutions provider Digital Sports Tech has released a unique betting product for Australian betting operator MadBookie.com, which allows players to create and customise their own proposition bets.
The Player Props product enables sportsbook customers to create and customise their own proposition bets on any player and statistic for sports including football, American football, basketball, rugby league and Australian rules football.
Digital Sport Tech's platform and algorithms then instantaneously analyse each customised bet to generate accurate odds.
Examples of customisable Player Props include: NFL player Tom Brady having at least 320 passing yards against Green Bay; Premier League footballers Wayne Rooney and David Silva combined having at least four shots on target against Liverpool and Tottenham respectively; and NBA player LeBron James scoring more points than Stephen Curry in a game on June 10th.
Digital Sport Tech said that the major attraction of Player Props for sportsbooks is the number of player markets that can be made available to users without any extra trading manpower.
The supplier claims that by factoring in all the possible bet permutations and combinations, there are over 1.3m unique markets available for users to create over a single round of English Premier League matches, and over 2.3m in a weekend of NFL.
Lewski said that the company saw the product as the first legitimate bridge between fantasy and sports betting, as it appeals to recreational users and produces a far deeper level of fan engagement than other products.
Brett Luntz, founder of MadBookie.com, added: "There's huge potential in customised bets on players and we've been really impressed with Digital Sports Tech, both their products and the speed and simplicity of the integration, which took just over three weeks.


You must genuinely like people, or you'll hate consulting.
Know your stuff. People's future depends on that.
You first priority is to solve a problem, not to sell a product.
You must understand the pain of the leader before you can help him fix the organization.
Be truthful, be firm, but be kind.
Some people respond to the potential loss they want to avoid, others to the opportunity they can seize. You better know which one you're talking to.
You can only lead as far as your client is willing to follow. Know when to stop.
Be able to connect the dots between where you client is and where they need to be.
Be yourself. People will know when you are faking.
Be ok with receiving rejection. Not everyone will like your advice or even follow it.
Be a continual learner. If you're not always growing, you won't be able to lead & coach others to the same.
I would add: 'Your fortune is in the foLLow up' … I am sure that you have mastered this! By caring enough about your prospect to let them know You are there for Them! I am sure that you have let your client know that you are there for her because you care about her needs; Not that 'You' are there for her because YOU NEED HER, but with a smile; Your Prospect needs YOU!


Hajoca's management training program offers you the freedom to live into your dream. In just three years, YOU can be managing one of our locations and sharing in its financial success. The program is intensive and competitive, but if we're speaking your language, we've got an unparalleled opportunity for long term development and growth by becoming a management trainee.
Our Manager in Training Program turns the best and the brightest management trainees into effective leaders. You'll be exposed to all aspects of our business. You'll be hands on every day with customers, with products, with a dedicated team of experts. You'll be presented with opportunities and challenges, and there's no limit to what you can achieve.
Hajoca's Management Training Program is open to recent college graduates or anyone with an entrepreneurial spirit.


State Assemblyman Fred W. Thiele Jr. announced last week that he has withdrawn his official support of the South Fork Wind Farm proposal, saying that changes made to the plan after local lawmakers had offered support have eroded his trust in the would-be developers.
The longtime assemblyman and former Southampton Town supervisor said in a statement issued on Thursday morning, January 24, that he sees recently unveiled changes to the proposal as a "bait and switch" by the developers that has soured his impression of the project.
He had previously supported the proposed 15-turbine wind farm in the ocean off Block Island as an important step toward boosting reliance on renewable energy sources, rather than fossil fuel power plants or nuclear power. But in last week's statement, he said that while he still supports wind energy projects, he cannot support the South Fork project as currently presented.
The company has said that the increase in power generation from using larger turbines does not substantially change any of the implementation details or the impact of the wind farm's development and operation, since they still will be building only 15 turbines, and they will be connected to land by the same power cable.
A spokesperson for the developers said that the company is puzzled as to why the changes in ownership and an increase in the anticipated power output of the project have soured Mr. Thiele on the project.
"Frankly, we're confused why Assemblyman Thiele was such a strong and vocal supporter of the 90-megawatt project, but now opposes the project when it's capable of producing even more clean energy for his constituents at a lower price," spokesperson Meaghan Wims wrote in an email to The Press.
Deepwater Wind built the first offshore wind farm in the United States, off Block Island, in 2016 and has said it expects to complete the South Fork Wind Farm by 2022.
The company also has announced plans for three other projects slated to come. One is an 80-turbine project slated for the same region as the 15-turbine South Fork Wind Farm, which would deliver up to 700 megawatts of power to Rhode Island and Connecticut. Others target locations off the coasts of New Jersey and Maryland.
Over the summer, Deepwater Wind filed its applications with the federal Bureau of Ocean Energy Management and the New York State Public Service Commission for 15 wind turbines in an area of ocean 30 to 35 miles southeast of Montauk, in an area popular with cod fishermen known as Cox Ledge, and connected to land by a 50-mile cable coming ashore in Wainscott and running underground to the LIPA-PSEG substation in East Hampton.
Shortly before filing the applications, after more than 18 months of public discussions about the 90-megawatt project, the company acknowledged in response to questions from The Press that it now expects to be able to employ larger turbines that could produce more than 8 megawatts of power each, rather than the 6-megawatt turbines that had been used in the Block Island Wind Farm in 2016 and had been used in initial projections for the South Fork Wind Farm.
The additional 40 megawatts of power that the larger turbines would produce had been shown in state power supply forecasts for several months prior.
A coalition of critics of the wind farm plans have repeatedly nodded to the trickle of new revelations about the project's details over the last two years, which seem to change from how they were originally presented, as a sign that the developers should not be trusted.
"The South Fork Wind Farm is a Trojan Horse that, if permitted to land at Wainscott Beach or in a pristine parkland once, will continue to do so with more cables and construction for more electricity from larger wind farms," Wainscott resident Simon Kinsella, the most vociferous critic of the wind farm proposal in recent months, said in support of Mr. Thiele's statement.
Mr. Thiele also jabbed at the Long Island Power Authority, which spurred the project forward by agreeing to a nearly $1.7 billion contract with Deepwater to purchase the power from the wind farm and announced in the fall that it would be negotiating an additional agreement to purchase the extra 40 megawatts of power that the company acknowledged in August it that would able to produce.
East Hampton Town Supervisor Peter Van Scoyoc said he supports Mr. Thiele's call for full disclosure of the LIPA power purchase agreements under which it negotiates the prices Long Island's residents will pay for electricity.
But Mr. Van Scoyoc said that the changes to the project plans have not soured his belief that the overall project will be a boost for East Hampton.
In July, the Town Board voted by its barest majority, 3-2, to support the Deepwater project, and it has been working on an easement agreement with the company to bury the power supply cables under Beach Lane in Wainscott and other roads leading to the East Hampton substation.
The supervisor said that the wording of the easement is still being drafted by the town but that it will impose strict limits on the size and capacity of the infrastructure that would be installed, limiting it to only the one 138-kilovolt cable from the South Fork Wind Farm.
"We proceeded into this negotiation with the understanding that this was 15 turbines and a cable of a certain size, and that hasn't changed," Mr. Van Scoyoc said. "Our intention is that our easement will be limiting.
oh no freds feeling got hurt so no turbines!
Unless they are going to be noticeable bigger I don't see how the same 15 turbines now producing more power is a problem? Are they going to be 44% bigger? Should we be surprised that technological improvements can occur during an approval process that will end up taking, what, a decade?
With all the problems this project failed to address, this was the only issue concerning the project that I raised during our debates to which Fred Thiele responded. The whole project is so poorly conceived. A whole laundry list of flaws can be recited. It has reached this point in part due to our Assemblyman's intent or neglect. What benefit does his relative turnaround do now? I hope he takes some responsibility and addresses the harm its done so far. But this is not the first bad idea that caused ...more Fred to spin 180 degrees and I suspect it will not be the last, I look forward to next year. I hope the damage Fred can do between now and then is minimized.
solar and win biggest scam for tax credits ever!
More likely he didn't get a big enough kick back.
THANK YOU FRED THIELE: finally, one of our representatives has the courage to call out LIPA -- do you really think there is no reason for them to pay an inordinately high price for electricity generated by this major construction project? They are overpaying and the money flows to LIPA's patron, our corrupt Governor Cuomo -- the same way SUNY construction projects were funding Governor Cuomo. When LIPA reveals the price it pays for the electricity it will be double market rate -- the same mark ...more up the new SUNY Southampton hospital is estimated to cost per room -- it's the same scam. Mark up construction, conceal the kick backs off shore, in this case literally, and keep the Cuomo Corruption Train running.
Not surprising. How does this company make money? By building these turbines. Then by maintaining them... at great cost. They know we won't be able to abandon them, so we'll have to keep maintaining them. Then, when the don't produce enough power. "we need 50 more!" This is a con game. I'd say "I told you so," but I'm not like that.
I was at a Town Board meeting last year to hear both sides before the big vote by the EHTB. I was surprised that this Deepwater Wind project will actually INCREASE THE ELECTRIC RATES for all of the East Hampton's residents. How many people really know this and would want our rates to increase? It's shameful that the Democratically controlled Town Board would agree to this program. The bait and switch should be no surprise, many witnesses from our states said the same thing. Our Democratically ...more controlled Town Board didn't care. Pitiful. I'm voting Republican next election.
"Bait & Switch" - those words coming out of the mouth of a politician - how ironic.
Thiele finally did the right thing. With America's great coal reserves wind was always a stupid idea. Just goes to show Trump was right all along.
Bird, this isn't 1964, America's great coal reserves? Coal is dead, figuratively and literally. It's the dirtiest polluter. trump doesn't have a clue, kinda like his government shut down.
Sorry Fred but a quick look at the posts above would indicate you're in error. Coal is the answer.
Sorry bird, a quick look at history would indicate your in error. If you like mercury in your fish, you like coal.
Sorry Fred but based on all the comments above, you're the only one on this thread who doesn't want mercury in your fish.
Bird, I rest my case.
Smart move. At some point, we have to understand that we are stewards of the lands and the waters that our forefathers left to us. We didn't spend our childhood at the beach looking out at wind farms. Neither should our children.
Another issue besides no firm cost to the ratepayers is the environmental cost to OUR beaches by the construction that is called for when bringing the cable(s) ashore. The whole project reeks of another LILCO scam.
Great, now conspiracy theorist are at it. Wait till our coast has "clean" oil rigs off our coast. Combine that with the "clean" coal people above are pushing . you won't only be able to drive on the beach, the ocean will be so polluted you can drive on it.
... the existing wind farms make Block Island look like Coney Island. A world class destination tainted by development and developers overpowering local government, Assembleyman Thiele being the exception.
Block island still looks great. One of my favorites.maybe I'm reading your comment wrong, but you realize Block is in RI?
Lolllll I used to argue with DFree on this message board over things. Now I see that you are not or sound kind, with this "Cuomo is pocketing the construction funds" rant. I apologize for ever assuming you were competent enough to discuss things.
December 2018: SUNY Polytechnic Institute founder Alain Kaloyeros was sentenced to 3 1/2 years in prison Tuesday after he was convicted earlier this year of steering more than $850 million worth of state-funded contracts to allies of Gov. Andrew Cuomo.
If the cost of the wind power generated by this project is so cheap, the why is LIPA keeping it a secret? And why are our electrical rates going up when it come on line?
Not knowing what the costs are is STUPIDITY on out elected people. Going ashore in wainscott is worse. Amagansett is the proper place. Less disturbing to the environment.
Percoco faces up to 50 years at his sentence, which is scheduled for June 11"
Buy solar panels & get them installed. That way you are responsible for the upkeep yourself and don't keep getting higher and higher bills from the electric company claiming they need more & more money for the upkeep of a bunch of jumbo fans in the Atlantic Ocean.
You know & I know who's going to be running those turbines and their goal is not to do a good deed for the community.


text:
About AngelPad
AngelPad is a seed-stage accelerator program based in NYC and San Francisco. In the past 8 years we have launched more than 150 companies in 12 cohorts. Every 6 months we select about 20 teams from a huge pool of applicants (usually around 4000) to work with us.
What's different about AngelPad?
While others have decided to "scale" and take on more companies or launch more cities, we have stayed true to our original goal: Find a bunch of awesome companies with founders we would like to work with and spend three very intense months with them. This focus has paid off, AngelPad has risen to be the #1 Accelerator in the U.S. (at least that's what a real study from MIT/Brown University says) and Strictly VC called us the "Anti-Y Combinator".
During the program, we work on everything from finding product market fit, defining a target market to getting first validation for the company. We are also instrumental in helping companies prepare for fundraising and of course for our investor demo day.
Who is behind AngelPad?
AngelPad is Thomas Korte and Carine Magescas, a husband-and-wife founder team, who met working at – what else – a Startup back in 2001 in San Francisco. Business Insider Profiled them in this article: "Meet Carine Magescas & Thomas Korte, the husband-and-wife team whose early bet on Postmates just led to a $2.65 billion Uber acquisition"
Carine founded an e-commerce Startup in 2003 after working in Engineering, Strategic Alliances and Marketing at several pre-IPO startups. In 2017 she was nominated "Angel Investor of the Year" at TechCrunch's 10th Annual Crunchies Awards. She has continued to invest over the years and is now using tools like Bitcoin Trader as a way to make more money off her investments. The tools allow her to make better decisions when it comes to trading and she can also set up automated trading if she wants. Apart from tech, Carine also managed to find time to become an accomplished fine art photographer, with gallery representation in the US and Europe. She has multiple solo and group exhibitions under her belt – in New York, London and San Francisco.
Thomas was Google's first International Product Manager, responsible for all the Google Product Launches in Europe dating back to 2002. He spent 7 years at Headquarters and was at the origin of Adwords, Google Maps and Google Shopping. He is the author of two patents which are still a crucial part of Google search ranking and ads monetization products. Thomas is known for his vision and creative ideas.
Who are the mentors at AngelPad?
AngelPad does not have "mentors" – well, we do, but in a different way. We don't believe in the "one-size-fits-all" advices that founders only get when they meet with mentors once and even find damaging contradictory advices founders often get from different mentors. A startup, especially through the intense three months of an accelerator, moves very quickly – things are tried, changed, modified, tried again every day and a mentor has to be part of that daily journey to be valuable. At AngelPad Carine and Thomas work alongside the startup founders every day. We roll up our sleeves and figure stuff out – everything – together with the founders.
There are a lot of "Friends of AngelPad" who come spend time with us during each session. Really, really smart people who we have known for a long time and trust to provide valuable insights.
Apply to AngelPad or read one of our alumni's "Insider Scoop to AngelPad" or "What happens at AngelPad"
Investors: Request to join the Investor Mailing List.
Media: Please use the Media Request Form for a fast response.
AngelPad is ranked the #1 U.S. Accelerator by MIT's U.S Seed Accelerator Rankings and StrictlyVC called it the "Anti Y-Combinator".
Our alumni include Postmates, Buffer, Periscope Data, Drone Deploy, Coverhound and 150 other startups.
Copyright © AngelPad

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We were privileged to attend the amazing screening of the new Disney Pixar movie Monsters University in 3D......A truly amazing movie with a fantastic array of characters Mike had always dreamed of becoming a scarer so he studied very hard in hope of achieving his deams....But when mike meets sulley at the Monster University ......mikes dreams of becoming a scarar are soon dashed.
The movie is amazing as you follow mikes and sulley quest to become scarers lots of amazing adventures and super funny movie moments followed as the pair become friends...we absolutely loved the film and cant wait to watch it again....Another amazing movie that we look forward to adding to our Disney collection.
Screaming with laughter and oozing with heart, Disney•Pixar's "Monsters University" is directed by Dan Scanlon ("Cars," "Mater and the Ghostlight," "Tracy"), produced by Kori Rae ("Up," "The Incredibles," "Monsters, Inc.") and features music from future Rock-and-Roll-Hall-of-Fame–inductee and award winning composer Randy Newman ("Monsters, Inc.," "Toy Story 3"). The film opens in UK. cinemas on July 12th 2013, and will be shown in Disney Digital 3D™ in selected cinemas.
We attended the Monster University Screening...All opinions are that of our own and we have not been instructed in what we write.


The cornerstone of good photography is the ability to take a photo that showcases your subject successfully. Good photography tips can help you do that. The right information will help you create the best photos you can. Keep reading for a variety of interesting photography tips.
Get closer to the subject to get a better shot. This allows you to eliminate backgrounds that are distracting, and it also makes it easier to properly frame what you are photographing. You also get the opportunity to allow your subject's face to be the star of the shot; this is especially impactful with portraiture. The intricacy of portraiture can be lost entirely if you keep your distance from the subject.
Experiment with new things, and do not be afraid to take original pictures. It is important to inject a dose of individuality into every photograph taken. Try to refrain from taking classic pictures, which can be very mundane and unoriginal. Develop different angles for your photographs, and do not be afraid to explore your imaginative side.
The ISO, aperture and shutter speed are an important part of photos so make sure you know the combination that works best for you. It is those three elements which make up the exposure of the shot. Avoid overexposed photos unless you purposely want them that way. Play around with these three settings to see how they work together and which combination will create the most interesting shot.
If you are going on a trip, do not wait to reach your destination to start taking pictures. There will be plenty of shot-taking opportunities for you on your trip. In fact, viewing the entire trip as a chance to snap some great photos makes it more of an adventure for you. For example, an airport offers countless opportunities for pictures of interesting subjects.
Once you have found the picture you want to take, do not move and hold your breath. Slight movements can decrease the quality of a shot. For the perfect shot, you must take time and focus your energy on getting the perfect view and angle before pressing the shutter button.
There are no secrets for being a better photographer. Continue experimenting and learning, and with experience over time, your pictures will markedly improve. Luckily, with digital cameras, you can get lots of no-risk practice. You don't necessarily have to develop every single picture, just keep what you like. Your eye for what constitutes a good image will improve over time.
Built-in flash comes on almost all digital cameras. It can kick in automatically in low-light situations. While this type of auto-flash is perfect for point-and-shoot purposes, professional photographers often prefer to invest their cash in a separate flash unit that can be attached to the camera. Make sure that your camera contains a "hot shoe" that accommodates an external flash. Make a trip to a camera store to make sure you get the right flash for your camera.
When you want to begin getting into photography, or you just want to learn to take better quality photos, try to learn all you can about proper composition. Like other forms of art, if your composition is lacking, then the outcome will not be the best. After you have done your research into composition, practice putting it to use and after some time you will see that your images have improved greatly.
Visit a thrift store to buy a film camera if you would like to test out the older film-based photography. A film that has an ISO number of 200, with your black-and-white capture, will give you a dramatic effect. The developed film can be printed on art or handmade papers, producing interesting artistic effects.
It might seem like a beginner's tip, but even pros forget that sometimes less is more. When dealing with any photo, don't over-think things. You don't need to overdo your photo elements. Keeping things simple in your photos is what catches your viewer's attention, simplicity often creates a big punch!
Throughout life, it has been ingrained in our minds to have things symmetrical. We value perfection, so if you're trying to create great photos, frame your subject so that it is slightly off-center. Watch out for auto-focus features that might lock on the object that sits at the center of your lens. Use manual focus instead, and lock your focus before snapping the picture.
Limit yourself to ensure that each photograph you take is creative. Focus on specific concepts to narrow the scope of your photography. Try to shoot 100 different photographs from the same point or within the same room. By enforcing this limitation, your mind has to find new ways to express the subject in a great photograph and this causes you to think beyond your normal comfort-zone.
When you travel to a new locale, think of unique things there to shoot. If you need some inspiration, check out the postcard racks. You will want to create your own images and perspectives of these important places.
Before making travel plans, have a list handy of places you'd like to see and ideas you'd like to photograph. If you do not know where to start, take a look at some postcards. There are also postcards highlighting the major attractions in town, so make sure you include these on your subject list.
Natural lighting can play a major role in your photographs so take note of what is happening. You will want to pick the best time of the day to take your outdoor photos, evening or morning is the best. If your subject is facing into the sun, it can distort the picture with shadows, and can also make it hard for your subject to keep a relaxed face. If you must shoot in direct sunlight, at least stand to the side and allow the sun to light from an angle.
Read your camera's manual. The manual is often a big, thick bulky brick. Often, people put them in a file drawer or throw them in the garbage. Rather than trashing your manual, make some time to learn the information it provides. The information contained within is extremely valuable and will simplify the process of taking great pictures.
Try framing all of your shots. Framing a shot does not refer to a physical frame, but a way of setting up your pictures. You can create frames that are natural looking for your photography subjects by closely scrutinizing the surrounding area. This helps to build your compositional skills.
There will be times where the lighting just won't allow you to capture a good photograph. Sometimes, you cannot find another spot where the light is more consistent. How can you compensate for this? Use a photo editing software program to create the look you are trying to achieve.
If you want to create a powerful look for your subject, take your photo from a low vantage point, looking upward. To make something look smaller, place your camera above your subject. There is a proper time for utilizing these strategies. The only way you will discover when certain methods will work and when they won't is to employ trial and error tactics.
Try creating a silhouette in your photo. A lot of photographer wait until the sunset to take pictures of a natural silhouette, but you can do it differently. Any time that brightness in a backdrop exceeds that of the subject, a silhouette will be created. You can easily create this effect by having a flash go off behind your subject or even just using a brightly lit window. Occasionally, this type of shot might have a face or body outline that is less than flattering.
Take a minute to pose your photographic subjects. Candid photos don't always have the best results; help everyone to get a good photo by instructing them on how and where to stand or sit. You will get that perfect shot if you take the time to arrange everyone.
You can make just about any subject look interesting just by adjusting the settings of your camera, capturing the shot from a different angle or using different lighting. Experiment with these options before you take the picture you were planning so you can understand how these changes can affect your photo.
A tripod is a good investment. It will help you steady your photos without struggling with camera placement. Even a low-cost tripod will make this problem a thing of the past. Produce professional looking pictures by using a stable tripod.
You should try using ordinary things when trying to get inspiration. Try taking some shots of common, everyday items. A pencil or kitchen sink can quickly become a work of art if you employ form and composition creatively. How unique you make your photo is truly up to you. The challenge is to make a mundane object interesting.
Be creative and experiment with the speed of your camera's shutter. If you are trying to get a good picture you would normally use the fastest shutter speed, but try the slowest for a different effect. Take that cyclist riding past for example. You will get a perfect image of the cyclist, but the background will have interesting streaks showing speed.
Increase your camera's shutter speed whenever the environment you're taking your photograph in is lacking in light. You will not get a blurry photo by doing so. You should aim for a speed of at least 1/200 of a second, but 1/250 is even better.
You should crop your pictures in order to make them look better. You may find that you have captured a great image of the subject, but that the objects in the background take away from it. You may also run into an issue where you captured a great shot but it is not framed correctly. You can easily fix those through cropping the image later.
Always invest in a protective case for your camera equipment. Often, damage or destruction of equipment could have easily been avoided if the owner had their equipment secured in a protective case. You can find a case that fits your camera at just about any store that sells cameras.
A photographer is an artist, and as such, they should capture images that send certain messages or illicit specific feelings. They must deliberately compose their shots to bring focus to their subject and use light and settings to convey the appropriate feeling. Those photos are ones people view and see the photographer's vision.
Taking great pictures is a useful skill that will offer a lifetime of special memories. It is a skill worth having. You will have to do plenty of research and practice to make your shots better, though it will all be worth it when you reach a higher level of photography.
Nighttime photography can totally change how a subject looks. As adequate lighting is not normally available during night shoots, it is important that forethought is given to the lighting that will be used. When photographing at night, you can employ the use of slow shutter speeds and a variety of artificial lighting options.


Merlo Waterfowl Company specializes in the hunting of ducks, geese, deer and fishing in both lakes and rivers in the greater Northern California area. Over 80 years of collected resources, experience, and passion for the outdoors has evolved into this opportunity for our guests to come and experience some of the finest waterfowling, deer hunting and fishing in the Pacific Northwest.
We are a family operated company and unlike typical guides and outfitters, we are also the farmers and cultivators of the land we hunt. We are truly committed to careful stewardship of our lands, conservation minded with an intensive focus on management.
Merlo Waterfowl Company is the premier full service waterfowl outfitter in the Pacific Flyway. We focus on professionalism, quality, consistency, and a custom experience tailored to you.
We specializes in planning, establishing and maintaining high quality wildlife, habitat and land management plans based on personal goals and objectives of a landowner.


It is possible to print patterns of toner on a suitable substrate using a laser printer or toner-using photocopier and transfer these to brass or nickel silver to create a etch resist pattern.
26/07/2017�� Making Etched Brass, Ink Fill Powder Coated Machine Plates for the DIY Repeat o Meter. These plates look great for any machine restoration build project!
This is a small �brass� plate that a ten-year old volunteer helped me make. You may want to point out the following: You may want to point out the following: The words we put on metal plates are much more permanent than paper.


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A BBQ is a great occasion for family and friends to gather but often, it feels like a typical dinner done outdoors with frozen meat simply heated up with charcoal. Fret not! Creating the perfect BBQ is not rocket science – a few tips and tricks are all you need.
Themes will add an extra splash of camaraderie to the table. Akin to a sports team wearing jerseys, dressing up in a thematic attire will create a sense of community especially if it is a large group. Just make sure that it suits the occasion — no one wants to wear a suit in the middle of a hot day right in front of the grill! What's more, a theme meaningfully narrows down the menu options and decor, helping you focus on quality, not quantity.
Not all of your guests are talkers. Some prefer to chill at the side, watching their loved ones in their company. Others prefer the small talk while being mostly engaged with a game, be it board games or sports. Getting a variety of entertainment options will surely fit the bill — horseshoe and darts are perfect for the outdoors without requiring the players to sweat too much. If you have children and you want to keep them occupied, water guns and foam Frisbees have proven to keep them busy.
So what makes a good BBQ a memorable one? Food. Delicious food. The simplest change can make significant differences to the BBQ experience.
There are two main types of charcoals, lump wood and briquettes. Lump wood is made by slowly and carefully burning wood pieces without oxygen till the natural chemicals, moisture and saps are out of the wood. This leaves us with less harmful charcoal that burns less carbon, leaves very little ash and burns hotter than briquettes. On the other hand, briquettes are made from saw dust, wood left overs and additives to hold them together. For a great BBQ experience, always choose lump wood charcoal. Furthermore, you can add wood chips such as alder and fruit woods to add a hint of fruitiness or oak and hickory for a more distinct smoke flavor.
It is best to preheat the grill before the cooking begins. Give yourself enough time to heat the charcoal till they are white, not when they are still red and flaming. When they are all white, an easy way to gauge the heat is to place your hand about 12 cm above the grill and count the number of seconds you can hold there comfortably — 6 seconds for low heat, 4 for medium and 2 for high. If you need a combination of heat settings, use the half-half method where you put the charcoal only on one side of the grill to keep the other side less hot.
To keep the meat juicy, avoid pressing the meat and using the fork to flip them. Use a spatula or tong and limit the flips to only once per item. Once the juices are out, they are gone for good so keep them where they should be — in the meat and into your tummy.
Whatever you have prepared for a great BBQ will be limited by the quality of the meat you are grilling. Obviously, the higher the grade of the meat, the better. But what makes them command their higher prices? An example is the Prime Steer Beef. When compared to the other 6 grades of beef, this grade of meat will have an abundance of marbling in its thick cuts, optimally covered with creamy white fat. When eaten, they melt in your mouth and you will be begging for more.
But at the end of the day, what makes a great BBQ is great company. Gather up your best mates, bring them round the table and simply enjoy the precious few hours together away from the hustles and bustles of the city.


From a Canon AE-1 many years ago to an Olympus E-M1 MkII and Lumix G9.
Many others along the way including Fujifilm, Pentax and Sigma.
Photography (naturally), motor sport, walking / trekking.
Olympus E-M1 MkII, Lumix G9 and Olympus Stylus 1.