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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts /
Cross-Examination on Affidavit of Gerry Gunanoot
Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts
Cross-Examination on Affidavit of Gerry Gunanoot British Columbia. Supreme Court Dec 9, 1988
Title Cross-Examination on Affidavit of Gerry Gunanoot
Creator British Columbia. Supreme Court
Publisher Vancouver : United Reporting Service Ltd.
Extent 40 pages of print
Subject Trial transcripts--British Columbia.
Person Or Corporation Uukw, Delgam, 1937-
Genre Trial proceedings
FileFormat application/pdf
Identifier KEB529.5.L3 B757
Gerry_Gunanoot_v1
Collection Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts
Source Original Format: University of British Columbia. Library. Law Library.
Date Available 2013
Rights Images provided for research and reference use only. For permission to publish, copy, or otherwise distribute these images, please contact the Courts of British Columbia: http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/
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<3ln tilt £&uprtmt Court of JJriiisti Columbia  Na 0843  Smithers Registry  BETWEEN  Smithers, B. C.  December 9>J1988  AND:  DELGAMUUKW, also know as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs;  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Defendants,  CROSS-EXAMINATION ON AFFIDAVIT  OF  GERRY OUNANOOT  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.. 610 -1030 WEST GEORGIA STREET. VANCOUVER, ac V6E 4H4 (604) 689-1088 <3fn tiit jstaprcm* Court of Jiritislj Columbia  Na 0843  Smithers Registry  BETWEEN:  Smithers, B. C.  December 9*;-1988  AND  DELGAMUUKW, also know as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs;  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Defendants.  CROSS-EXAMINATION ON AFFIDAVIT  OF  GERRY OUNANOOT  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD., 610 -1030 WEST GEORGIA STREET. VANCOUVER, EC V6E 4H4 (604) 689-1068 APPEARANCES:  STUART RUSH, Esq.,  PETER R. GRANT, Esq.,  MS. LOUISE MANDELL,  M.D. ADAMS, Esq., and  D. PATERSON, Esq.,  D.M.M. GOLDIE, Esq., Q.C.,  C.F. WILLMS, Esq.,  NORMAN J. PRELYPCHAN, Esq.,  GAMES M. MACKENZIE, Esq.,  MS. THORA A. SIGURDSON, and  D. O'BYRNE, ESQ.  JAMES A. MACAULAY, Esq., Q.C.  MS. MARVYN KOENIGSBERG,  MICHAEL W.W. FREY, Esq., and  MS. LORYL RUSSELL,  appearing for the Plaintiffs;  appearing for Her Majesty the  Queen in Right of the Province  of British Columbia;  appearing for the Attorney-  General of Canada. 1  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1 Smithers, B.C.  2 December 9, 1988  3  4 MR. RUSH:  We're on the record then.  We're just now prepared to  5 proceed with the cross-examination of Mr. Gerry  6 Gunanoot in respect of the Skiik'm Lax Ha territory.  7 I want to advice you that the person I had expected to  8 be here this morning, who is Dora Wilson-Kenni, to  9 assist with both the pronunciation and the spelling of  10 the Gitksan words could not be here.  She had to go to  11 Vancouver on a medical family emergency.  And as a  12 consequence there may be some pronounciations and  13 spellings which may be difficult to communicate to our  14 reporter, so I just ask you to be conscious of that  15 concern in relation to your questioning.  16 MR. O'BXRNE:  All right.  17 MR. RUSH:  So Mr. Gunanoot does not require translation and  18 we'll just have to make out as best we can with the  19 Gitksan words, because there's no one else here to  20 help us.  21  22 GERALD GUNANOOT, Sworn:  23  24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. 0'BYRNE:  25 Q  Mr. Gunanoot, could you state your full name again,  26 please?  27 A  Gerry Gunanoot.  28 Q  Would you spell your first name?  29 A   G-E-R-R-Y.  30 Q  Do you also go by the name of Gerald Gunanoot?  31 A  No.  32 Q  You've never use the the name Gerald Gunanoot?  33 A  That's the way it was written, but it's always been  3 4 Gerry.  35 Q  All right.  36 A  Well, Gerry is short for Gerald.  37 Q  But you've always gone by Gerry?  3 8 A  Yeah.  3 9 Q  And just so I have it straight, there is a document  40 before us, four page document, which has the signature  41 which in typewritten letters it says Gerald,  42 G-E-R-A-L-D, Gunanoot and there is a signature above  43 it.  Is that your signature?  44 A  That's my signature.  45 Q  And you've signed it G-E-R-R-Y?  46 A  Yes.  47 Q  And that'Ģs the name you normally use? 2  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Yes.  All right.  And you signed this affidavit on the 11th  day of May 1988?  Right.  At Hazelton?  Yes.  Okay.  And the first part of it says, "I, Gerald  Gunanoot, of the Village of Gitanmaax, in the Province  of British Columbia, make oath and say as follows:".  You read that over, did you?  Yes.  You didn't make any correction there to your name?  No.  Just left it, because I was informed that Gerald  is proper for Gerry, or just like Al, and you can say  it's Charlie, or so forth.  Who told you that?  Well, I learned that from school.  You just thought it was something minor and left it?  Right.  Okay.  How old are you, sir?  45.  I believe 1943.  You were born in 1943?  Yeah.  What day and what month,  please?  31st  of  May.  Where were you born?  I was born on trapline, and I was registered in Prince  Rupert.  And in what area was the trapline you were born on?  In Awiijii.  The area we are going to be talking  about.  Just so — Awiijii is spelled A-W-I-I-J-I-I?  That's right.  And that's the territory that you're here to talk  about today?  Right.  And that's the territory you described in your  affidavit of the 11th of May, 1988?  Right.  Sorry.  Your answer was yes to that question?  Yes.  And that is the territory that you describe in  paragraph 5 of your affidavit?  That's right.  Have you had a chance to read that over today?  Yes, we read this.  I read this when I signed it, and  then I read it again a couple of days ago, and read it 3  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  MR. RUSH  27  MR. O'BY  28  29  Q  30  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  again last night.  All right.  Do you need a minute to read that over  just to get it back in your mind, or can you answer  questions on it right now?  I believe I could answer questions right now.  All right.  You told us you were born on the trapline  in the territory you talk about in your affidavit and  that you were subsequently registered in Prince  Rupert?  Yes.  When I was registered starting — well, when we  left the Stewart area we went down to Prince Rupert  with my mother when she took me back from my uncle and  aunt.  All right.  So you lived in the Stewart area for a  period of time?  Well, out on the trapline.  I take it then the trapline is near the Stewart area?  Right.  Can you tell me approximately how far to the Village  and Municipality of Stewart it is to the trapline?  Well, it used to be a good day's walk depending on  weather, and then when you drive now it's about 45  minutes, half hour.  By road?  By road.  I hate to think of any other way to drive.  NE:  Having some knowledge of the area, Mr. Rush, I  assure you it's possible to do it in another manner.  There is a road in fact that runs from the territory  you describe in your affidavit north and south to the  Yukon border from the Meziadin Junction; is that  correct?  True.  That's known as Highway 37?  Right.  And the path that you would travel then if you were  driving from the territory you described in your  affidavit to Stewart you would go along Highway 37 to  the Meziadin Junction?  True.  Then you would continue west upon Highway 37A, as it's  called, to arrive in Stewart?  Correct.  Now, using that framework was that the same method  that you would walk to Stewart?  We used to travel from the Hanna Ridge, and then we go  up to top of Meziadin Lake on the glacier bed and then 4  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  about 14 miles or so.  They call 14 Mile at the time.  That's as far as the road used to go in the winter  months from Stewart.  The delivery, when they used to  deliver groceries to people who live in the area 14  Mile is about the limit of the town.  Everything came  in by seaport.  Did you actually live in the town of Stewart at any  time?  Yes, we have a home there.  Lived there off and on.  Worked up there off and on.  All right.  Now, you say that you originally stayed  and lived with your aunt and uncle?  Yes.  What were their names, please?  David Gunanoot.  And your aunt * s name?  Esther.  And the uncle that you refer to, David Gunanoot, that  is the person who told you and described to you and  showed to you the territory that you described in  paragraph 5 of your affidavit?  Yes.  Taught me.  And how old were you when your mother took you from  your aunt and uncle and you went to live with her?  I was about nine years old.  So is it correct for me to suggest that you didn't  live on the territory you described in paragraph 5 of  your affidavit year round?  In the earlier years, yes, we did.  And how old — when you say the early years how old  would you have been?  I'd say about seven or six.  All those first years I  believe we did live all year round.  So up to the age of six or seven you lived out on the  territory all year round?  Right.  Then would it have been when you were seven or eight  when you moved into the town of Stewart?  Off and on summer my uncle used to work at mines.  Was that the Premier Mine?  Yes.  The Grand Due, and so forth.  Your uncle, you mean David Gunanoot?  Yes.  And how old would you have been when he started  working in the mines in Stewart?  I could not say.  Was he — 5  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  MR.   RUSH:  27  28  MR.   O'BYR  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  I believe he was working prior before, 'cause I was  told of stories.  Well, he told me stories, my  grandmother did the same, when he met one of the  captains on a battleship and they picking up recruits  and they really wanted my uncle, but since my uncle  was a very handy man out in the bush, as well as on  the trapline, they just decided to leave him.  Your uncle was exempted from military service during  the Second World War?  He never got into it.  That's because of the reasons you just gave us?  Right.  He was deemed to be essential to the operation of the  mines?  Right.  What was his trade?  What did he do?  Miner and a trapper and fisherman, logger.  What did he do in the mines that made him so  essential; do you know?  I don't really know too much on mining other that he  works underground.  He's very good with pack, horse  packs, pack train.  And when they're out prospecting  he's always there.  They always select him to take  care of the horses, and so forth.  He's more a  handyman on starting mines.  David Gunanoot spoke directly to this in his  commission.  SIE:  You knew that your uncle would go prospecting?  Under the company, yes.  Do you know the areas he prospected in?  Well, the company never tells you where they're going.  But did your uncle ever tell you where he went?  No, not really.  So what, you left Stewart then?  I may have asked you  how old were you when you left Stewart to go with your  mother?  Somewhere nine, or somewhere roughly around nine.  Where did you go live then?  Port Edward.  And that is a settlement that is about what, 14  kilometres west of Prince Rupert?  Prince Rupert.  And how long did you live at Port Edward?  Not very long.  Just a few months.  And we moved into  Prince Rupert due to Mom and them was selling out on  fishing.  And we moved out to Prince Rupert, 9th West. 6  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0*Byrne  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  47  That's 9th Avenue West in Prince Rupert?  Yeah.  And did you live on 9th Avenue West?  We stayed there until school term.  I was going to  school, and then the following spring we moved to  Hazelton.  Did you go to school in Prince Rupert?  For about one year.  Well, one term.  Did you go to school at all when you were in Stewart?  You can say yes.  Like I can say yes, because I was  just starting to learn English then.  I was more like  a kindergarten person, 'cause I — you'd be speaking  English and I'd be speaking Gitksan.  All right.  And I didn't even know the difference.  The one and  only difference I knew then was the person didn't  understand me.  It was so natural to me to speak  Gitksan I didn't think different.  You moved to Hazelton, but how old would you have been  when you moved to Hazelton?  I'd say ten, because my birthday's in May.  Okay.  And then how long have you resided in Hazelton  since then?  From there on.  How many — how far did you go in school?  Well, I completed my schooling in the college in  Terrace.  So you obtained your Grade 12?  Yes.  And when would you have done that?  '78.  And in your teens and twenties did you find  employment?  Well, I took up marine stationary engineering of small  engines.  I worked for B.C. Hydro and B.C. Tel.  I  worked on the mills as a millwright.  I worked for  Kim's Automotive in Rupert.  I worked for B.C. — I  mean Bob Parker's Ford in Prince Rupert.  I was on the  North Rock Coast Guard engineering.  Sorry.  What is the North Rock?  It's Coast Guard.  A Coast Guard vessel?  Yes.  For 18 months.  And then they were shutting her  down.  They didn't need the crew of North Rock any  more, so.  That was actually from Bella Bella up to  Stewart where I learned bay area. We covered that  territory. 7  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  So for how many years would you have been away from  Hazelton following this employment that you've talked  to us about?  Well, when I was millwrighting I was there — well, I  worked on the mills around Hazelton for longer period  of time.  B.C. Hydro and B.C. Tel, they were short  term jobs.  I could have been gone maybe nine months  at the most at a turn.  How long did you work for Parker Ford in Prince  Rupert?  Parker Ford I got bumped out of that, because I didn't  have no certificate, because of my marine — marine's  different.  You're lucky if you can see your  certificate or your master's test after 14 years.  Seven years land, seven years sea, and I didn't have  that so I towed it — told to back out.  How long did you work for?  18 months, I believe.  Then you mentioned Kim's Auto Body.  That was in  Prince Rupert?  I only worked there for short — four months I believe  that time.  And you told —  Be shut down.  And you told us that the 18 month tour you did with  the Coast Guard?  Right.  Okay.  Did you buy any property in Prince Rupert?  No.  Have you ever owned any property in your own name?  The only property I have now is my uncle's property in  Stewart.  And that's your uncle —  Dave.  — David Gunanoot?  Yes.  And there is some property in Stewart that was his?  Yes.  And it•s now yours?  I inherit it.  You inherited it from him?  Yes.  Is  it  in the village —  Municipality of  Stewart?  We pay tax.  We all pay tax.  No. What I want to know is it in the  town of Stewart?  Yes. 8  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1  1  MR. RUSE  2    1  MR. O'B^  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  I think that was the answer.  BYRNE:  Do you know how long your Uncle David Gunanoot had  owned that?  Back in the twenties.  And now your Uncle David Gunanoot died in 1945, didn't  he?  No.  When did he die?  Just last year.  Sorry.  Wrong one.  Have you changed the title into  your name now?  Yes.  Is it in your name alone?  Yes.  Are you married, sir?  No.  Have you  ever been married?  No.  Do you have any children?  Yes.  How many?  Five.  Where do they live?  In Hazelton, and one in Kitsegukla.  Do you use the Stewart property at all for your own  purposes?  Yes.  What do you use it for?  To live in, stop off, relax.  You rent it out when you're not there?  No.  Is it a house?  Yes.  Let's go to the affidavit.  I'm again referring you to  the copy of the four page document which I'm told has  been filed as Exhibit 604 in this proceeding.  When  were you first contacted by anybody to swear this  affidavit?  On the date when we signed — when it was signed.  The 11th?  Yeah.  11th of May, 1988 is the first time you had seen that  document, that piece of paper?  When it was made up, yes.  Was it made up?  I had a briefing, they asked me is this true, and 9  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1  2  3  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  this, if it was true or if it was false, is there  anything that I figure was wrong.  I read it and I  found nothing wrong.  All right.  When you say you read it you're  particularly referring to paragraph 5, the  description?  The whole thing, yes, the way it was phrased.  Just so I understand, who presented the document to  you?  Neil.  That's Neil John Sterritt?  Yeah.  Did he contact you by telephone, or something, to say:  Gerry, come down here?  I believe he did want to see me.  He called me and  wanted to see me in the office.  The office is what office?  Gitksan Tribal.  Okay.  And you went down there, I take it?  Yes.  And then did Mr. Sterritt then hand you this document  or copy of it?  He handed me this, told me to read over.  After he  said that it was referring to Awiijii territory,  Sliik'm Lax Ha's territory.  Stop there.  So, again, Mr. Sterritt told you that it  referred to the Awiijii territory, Territory of  Skiik'm Lax Ha?  Sorry.  You have to say yes or no.  Yes.  And what  else  did he  tell you?  Well,   he asked me  if  I knew or  if  I was  familiar,  and  I  said yes,   I  am quite  familiar.  Familiar with what?  That  Skiik'm Lax  Ha  territory.  Yes.  And then he asked me if this was right, the affidavit.  And then did you read it?  Yes, I read it, and thought about it a little while,  and then I said it — it's there good enough.  Should  satisfy anybody the way it's put down.  I see.  And after that did you then sign it?  We — yes.  Gordon Sebastian came in and then we  signed it.  All right.  So you only saw this affidavit on that one  occasion; is that correct?  I guess that's the way you could say it, but when we  talk about it between my uncle and I, the boundary 10  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  lines, and he always make sure that I know where we  are by talking.  Well, discussion.  Which uncle are you talking about?  Dave.  He gives me tests every so often to keep myself  familiar with it.  Your uncle would do this from time to time over the  years, would he?  Yes.  Right up until his death last year?  Yes.  So you didn't make any changes at all in this  affidavit?  No.  And when you got there paragraph 5 was already in the  typewritten form that you've —  Yes.  So am I correct in saying that these aren't your words  here in paragraph 5?  I would say these are the same way.  I could not  phrase this any other way.  If you were going to use words you would use those  words; correct?  I more or less if I was to describe the whole  territory this can't be more accurate.  I might even  foul up somewhere if I was to put it any other way.  All right.  So this is perhaps a more accurate  description than you yourself could give?  More or less saying that it is true.  My uncle gave  it.  There's no loop holes or no — nothing where  anything that I know can be wrong.  There's absolutely no difference between the  description given in paragraph 5 and the description  your uncle gave to you; correct?  True.  You're a hundred percent certain of that?  Yes.  But just going back, so I understand this, you did not  dictate this description to somebody, did you?  No.  It was more or less presented to you and said, well,  if it's right go ahead and sign it?  Right.  Did you look at a map while you were considering  whether or not paragraph 5 was correct?  Just reading that and my own memory of the area is  enough to tell me where — where it's referring to.  And looking at the map, when I did look at the map at 11  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1 home, after reading that there was no difference.  2 Q  Okay.  When you looked at the map at home that was  3 after you had read over paragraph 5 and signed the  4 affidavit?  5 A  Yes.  6 Q  What map did you look at when you were back at home?  7 A  A map that we have of our own territory.  8 Q  And when was that map prepared?  9 A  '85, I believe.  10 Q  And I saw you walk in with something.  Do you have  11 that map with you today?  12 A  No, that was not my map.  13 Q  All right.  That map that was prepared in 1985, do you  14 have that map in your possession?  15 A  No, I haven't been — I haven't been into maps lately.  16 There was one map already missing out of my  17 personal — well, at the house.  I don't know.  18 Somebody probably borrowed it while I wasn't around.  19 And I haven't seen the overall map since either, so I  20 don't know if my cousin borrowed it, which is Joshua,  21 Joshua McLean.  I'm not sure either him or my neice  22 probably borrowed it.  I'm not sure.  23 Q  But the map was in your possession after the 11th of  24 May, 1988?  25 A  Yes.  26 Q  But you don't know where it is today?  27 A  No.  It's the same as what Stewart has here.  28 Q  It's the same as what Mr. Rush has?  29 A  Yes.  30 MR. O'BYRNE:  I'd like to have a look at that, if I might, Mr.  31 Rush.  32 MR. RUSH:  Go ahead.  I'm producing a photocopy of Exhibit 9A,  33 or actually a photograph.  34 MR. O'BYRNE:  A photograph.  3 5 MR. RUSH:  Which I've been using for my personal use.  I should  36 say not of the entire portion, just the northern  37 portion of 9A.  3 8 MR. O'BYRNE:  And just --  39 MR. FREY:  Isn't it map 9A as opposed to exhibit?  40 MR. RUSH:  Did I say exhibit?  41 MR. FREY:  I think you said exhibit.  42 MR. RUSH:  I didn't intend to say exhibit.  It's overlay 9A.  43 It's in the 430 sequence of exhibits.  44 MR. FREY:  Okay.  45 MR. O'BYRNE:  46 Q  So just so I have this straight, Mr. Gunanoot, after  47 you signed the affidavit you went home, looked at the 12  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1 map, a copy of which has been produced to me by your  2 counsel Mr. Rush, or part of a copy of a photograph of  3 it, and you just confirmed in your own mind that the  4 description in paragraph 5 matched the map?  5 A  Correct.  6 Q  Okay.  And, again, just so I have it straight, prior  7 to the day that you went and signed the affidavit,  8 that's the 11th day of May, 1988 you had not seen this  9 affidavit?  10 A  No.  11 Q  And, again, prior to that date you had not sat down  12 and written out this description in paragraph 5?  13 A  No.  14 Q  Nor had you spoken out loud to somebody else and had  15 them write down your words in the form of paragraph 5?  16 A  No.  17 Q  Would it fair for me to suggest that the first time  18 you've ever seen a description like this in paragraph  19 5 was the day you signed the affidavit?  20 A  True.  21 Q  And that's not the way that you learned the territory,  22 is it?  23 A  Well, I learned it in our language.  24 Q  All right.  So that's one difference.  Normally you  25 would learn it in Gitksan?  26 MR. RUSH:  No.  In our language.  27 MR. O'BYRNE:  28 Q  What is your language?  29 A  Gitksan.  30 Q  All right.  So this is in English and Gitksan?  31 A   Yeah.  32 Q  It's primarily in English?  33 A  Mostly, yeah.  3 4 Q  Did you have any difficulty translating the Gitksan  3 5 knowledge you had to English?  36 A  I had to play around with the way it's spelled.  37 Q  The English or the Gitksan?  3 8 A  The Gitksan.  3 9 Q  Okay.  Would you also agree with me that when you  40 learned the territory you would have learned it in  41 more or less chunks or segments?  42 A  That's right.  Well, we live in one area for a period  43 of time depending on the weather and depending on what  44 we are doing.  If we're after beaver, okay, we'll be  45 in beaver area.  And then if the snow is deep and  46 can't dig out your trap from the ice anymore, well,  47 you start trapping marten, mink, fox, coyote, wolves 13  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  so you'll be in a different territory again.  So you  move in sections.  And that's the way you learned it?  Right.  Was there ever an occasion when you were with your  uncle where you actually went around the entire  territory on the boundaries?  Well, we had to cover ground due to weather, like I  was saying.  And we did move — we did not just — we  did not just trap one — one — one lake, for example,  or one beaver pond.  When — when — when the beaver  were getting to be medium size then we start getting  leary about trapping any more in that part of the area  so that they will grow again so we move to a different  location.  Then we get the big ones, and that will  give the younger ones a chance to increase.  And this  is why we do cover our territories, the area.  And  from year to year we move around.  Okay.  We might end  up with seven — seven areas, for example, this  winter.  Next winter we're in a different seven areas.  To let the first seven rehabilitate and grow?  Right.  So we do move around on our territory quite  frequently.  Is there any particular starting point at the  territory?  I mean, if you were going to start a  description of the territory to me right now where  would you pick to start?  Well, how do you mean; if I went out trapping right  now?  No.  If you were going to verbally tell me where your  territory was what starting point or point of  reference on the boundary would you start?  Well, you can start anywhere around — first  Bell-Irving or otherwise Banna Ridge.  All right.  And if you were going to describe it to me  starting from either one of those two points would you  do it mentally in clockwise fashion or in  counterclockwise fashion?  It wouldn't matter.  Either way.  Well, which way would you go?  Well, through experience of travelling down the road  now as you — as you're going north it's obvious the  road turns and you can obviously see the high ridges,  mountain tops to your left across the Bell.  Is that from Bell 1?  Yeah.  Just so we have it straight for the record the road 14  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1 crosses the Bell-Irving River over two bridges as you  2 proceed north; correct?  3 A There's only one big bridge.  4 Q All right.  But the road crosses over the Bell-Irving  5 River twice?  6 A Right.  First Bell and the second Bell.  7 Q And the second Bell is the big bridge?  8 A It's like the number one.  9 Q All right.  And in fact those crossings are referred  10 to as Bell 1 and Bell 2?  11 A Right.  12 Q And that's on Highway 37 as it proceeds north to the  13 Cassiar District?  14 A Yes.  15 Q And in fact at Bell 2 crossing there's a Gulf Service  16 Station, is there not?  17 A At Bell 2?  18 Q It's a Gulf Service Station, isn't it?  19 A I believe it is.  20 Q And restaurant?  21 A Esso.  22 Q Maybe they changed.  23 MR. RUSH:  Does anything turn on the —  24 A I believe it was Gulf.  No, Esso.  I don't remember.  25 MR. O'BYRNE:  26 Q Well,   whatever,   it's  one  or  the  other?  27 A Esso  I  think  it  is.  28 Q There's  a restaurant  there,   isn't  there?  29 A Yes.  30 Q And I take it you've been up in the area frequently  31 perhaps since 1985?  32 A I was just up there last fall.  Just this fall I  33 should say.  3 4 Q Was your first trip up there in — sorry.  Did you  35 make a trip up there in January of 1986?  36 A I think I did.  37 Q How did you go up there in January of 1986?  3 8   MR. RUSH:  You mean by what transportation?  3 9   MR. O'BYRNE:  By what means.  40 MR. RUSH:  Or by what route?  41 MR. O'BYRNE:  Both.  42 Q What did you use and how did you get there?  43 A Pick-up.  44 Q Four wheel drive?  45 A No.  Just pick-up.  46 Q And did you travel then from Hazelton on Bighway 16?  47 A Yeah. 15  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1 Q  And turn and go north on Highway 37?  2 A   Right.  3 Q  Up past Meziadin Junction?  4 A  Yes.  5 Q  And you stopped at some point on the territory you  6 described in paragraph 5?  7 A  At Awiijii.  It's one of our main points we stop off,  8 or otherwise Taft Creek.  T-A-F-T.  9 Q  And what did you do there?  10 A  We camp.  Sometimes we spend the week, sometimes we  11 spend just a couple of days.  Check out our trail, see  12 how it is, or the area.  13 Q  Did you do that on foot?  14 A  Well, we could see just from looking from the highway  15 where sometimes we do go on foot.  16 Q  Snowshoe?  17 A  Yeah.  18 Q   Snowmobile?  19 A  I don't use snowmobiles, but Skiik'm Lax Ha does, and  20 his main party.  21 Q  And Skiik'm Lax Ha is Johnny Wilson?  22 A  Yes.  23 Q  He used to do this quite regularly.  Just backing up,  24 if I might, for a moment.  Again, as I understand,  25 this affidavit was presented to you or shown to you by  26 Mr. Neil John Sterritt?  27 A  Yes.  28 Q   That was on the 11th of May, 1988?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q  And that was the first time you had seen it?  31 A  True.  32 Q  And you had not discussed the description in paragraph  33 5 with anybody else before you saw the affidavit on  34 the 11th of May, 1988?  35 MR. RUSH:  Well, he didn't say that.  36 MR. O'BYRNE:  37 Q  Well, I'm going to suggest to you you had not  3 8 discussed this description or dictated this  3 9 description to anybody before the 11th day of May,  40 1988, had you?  41 MR. RUSH:  Well, there are two questions there, and I think  42 there's discussed and dictated, and he answered the  43 second, but as my recollection is not the first.  44 MR. O'BYRNE:  45 Q  Prior to seeing the affidavit had you given a  46 description of the land which is in paragraph 5 to  47 anybody? 16  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1 A  No, I was just briefed on that, and then I was just  2 asked what I mean.  I was asked if I was familiar with  3 Skiik'm Lax Ha territory, and I said yes.  4 Q  Did you discuss signing this affidavit with Johnny  5 Wilson before you signed the affidavit?  6 A  I had all right.  I was already given all rights to  7 speak on behalf of Skiik'm Lax Ha.  8 Q  My question was, Mr. Gunanoot, did you discuss with  9 Johnny Wilson, Skiik'm Lax Ha, the signing of this  10 affidavit before you signed it?  11 MR. RUSH:  You have to answer his question.  12 MR. O'BYRNE:  I'd like to know what he said.  Are you able to  13 interpret that?  14 MR. RUSH:  Well, he said to me "How would I phrase that".  15 MR. O'BYRNE:  Okay.  That's all I want.  16 A  We have talked about traplines, I mean our territory,  17 Johnny and I and Uncle Dave.  Is that what you're  18 referring to?  19 MR. RUSH:  I think you should read the — what you're referring  20 to to the witness.  21 MR. O'BYRNE:  I'm not referring to anything yet, Mr. Rush.  I'm  22 merely asking him questions as to the manner in which  23 the affidavit was executed.  As you and I both know  24 I'm working towards something.  25 MR. RUSH:  Are you going to refer to anything in the affidavit,  26 because if you are I think you should put it to him  27 directly.  28 MR. O'BYRNE:  All right, I will.  29 Q  You told me, Mr. Gunanoot, you read the affidavit over  30 last night, didn't you?  31 A  Yeah.  32 Q  You read the whole affidavit over last night?  33 A  Read that.  3 4        Q  Paragraphs one through —  3 5        A  The whole thing.  36 Q  — Ten?  37 A  I read this whole thing.  3 8 Q  Okay.  3 9 MR. RUSH:  Referring to the Exhibit 6 04.  40 MR. O'BYRNE:  41 Q       Now,  what  I  wanted  to know   is did you discuss  the  42 swearing  of   the affidavit with Johnny Wilson,   Skiik'm  43 Lax   Ha,  before you  swore  the  affidavit  on the  11th  day  44 of  May,   1988?  45 A       No.  46 Q       You  didn't.     Why not?  47 A       Didn't  have  to. 17  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1 Q  Why didn't you have to?  2 A  The way it's written out here described he knows that.  3 Q  Sorry.  Who's the he?  4 A  Skiik'm Lax Ha.  5 Q  Okay.  6 A  I don't see where I had to discuss with him.  7 Q  Well, did you need —  8 A  Because we both know.  9 Q  Okay.  Did you need his permission to describe the  10 land to somebody else?  11 A  No, it's already clear.  12 Q  That is Skiik'm Lax Ha's territory?  13 A  Right.  14 Q  Who else other than Skiik'm Lax Ha can talk about that  15 territory?  16 A  There's me and there was my Uncle David.  17 Q  Anybody else?  18 A  Well, Skiik'm Lax Ha's side.  19 Q  Does Johnny Wilson, Skiik'm Lax Ha, know the territory  20 described in paragraph 5 as well as you do?  21 A  Yes.  22 Q  Does he know it better than you?  23 A  I could not say one guy — one person's judgment to  24 another's judgment.  How well a person picks up is  25 what I'm saying.  Some are slow and some are fast.  26 And I hardly travelled with Johnny out in this  27 territory.  He has — in other words, he goes his own  28 way of trapping and I go my own way.  29 Q  Both on the territory you describe in paragraph number  30 five?  31 A  Yes.  32 Q  Did your uncle, David Gunanoot, also instruct Johnny  33 Wilson in the territorial boundaries as you describe  3 4 in paragraph 5?  3 5 A  I'm sure you're familiar with everybody discussing  36 everything in the house in order to keep things in  37 order, so we always get together and we discuss what  36 should we do in this area, or like as we said earlier  3 9 to give the young ones a chance we move to a different  40 location.  So if Johnny's over the Awiijii area, okay,  41 we're in Bowser or we're down at — you guys refer to  42 as — as Hodder Lake.  43 MR. O'BYRNE:  Hodder.  Just so I can assist here, H-0-D-D-E-R.  44 MR. RUSH:  B-0-W-S-E-R.  45 A  Or we could be down at Surveyors Creek or we could be  46 at Taft, but we leave that certain area alone that was  47 worked the following trapping season. 18  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  MR. O'BYRNE:  Okay.  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  So wherever Johnny goes he's got his own party, he's  got his own group there with him and he goes his own  way.  I have no authority to tell him oh, you go over  this way, or you go over that way.  Does he have authority to tell you well, you go over  this way or you go over that way?  Yes.  So I take it that you and Skiik'm Lax Ha —  Well, he doesn't bother me at all.  Doesn't tell me  nothing.  Be just let's me on my own, like I let him  on his own.  He just does his own.  So you two share the territory and leave each other  alone?  We discuss and we go over whatever has to be improved.  But if there's a final decision to be made it's  Skiik'm Lax Ha, Johnny Wilson, who has to make that  decision with regard to the territory described in  paragraph number five?  After talking to me, yes.  He has to consult with you first?  Yes.  Why is that?  Well,   Johnny  is not — well,   I'll  put  it  this way,   is  not  up there as  often as  I was,  and I'm more  familiar  because  I was born  out  there and  I was  raised amongst  the  elders.     I  didn't go running  round like bunch  of  kids  did at any  time.     I was more or less  stuck with  the elders.     And  I had  to learn  from the elders.     And  so as   far  as  I  can  see Johnny said go ahead when we  talked.     He  said  — when we  talked  it over,   so Neil  called me  instead of Johnny.  Okay.     That's what I'm after.     Let's back  up.     That's  that  conversation  I'm after.     Did you and Johnny,   you  and Johnny Wilson discuss between yourselves which  one  of  you was going  to  swear  the affidavit?  No.  Okay.  Well,   the  territory —  okay.     It's more  or  less  like  in my hands  to guard over  it.  That's  the  territory you refer  to  in paragraph  5?  Yes.  It's in your hands to guard over?  Right.  Okay.  Go ahead.  Therefore I can speak on that. 19  G.   Gunanoot  (for  the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr.   0'Byrne  1 Q      But you and Johnny Wilson,   Skiik'm Lax  Ha —  2 A  Right.  3 Q  — Talked between yourselves before you went and spoke  4 to Neil John Sterritt?  5 A  Right.  We always discuss what if this happen, what if  6 that happen.  Well, you know, like you have your own  7 home you talk, discuss with your family how you gonna  8 improve things in your home.  9 Q  Now, in paragraph 6 of your affidavit you point out  10 that there are other Gitksan head chiefs which have  11 territories which border on the Awiijii territory;  12 correct?  13 A  There are?  14 Q  That's what it says.  15 A  They are right around us.  16 Q  All right.  I'm not going to ask you specifically the  17 names, but you point out there's one territory to the  18 north and to the east, there's another territory to  19 the east, and to the south is another territory?  20 A   True.  21 Q  Then you say the Kitwancool Chiefs also own territory  22 to the south?  23 A  Right.  24 Q       You  say nothing about   the west?  25 A      That's  all  —  that's  all  — all Kitwancool.  26 MR.   RUSH:     Pointing  — waiving his hand in an arc form.  27 A      On  the west.  28 MR.   O'BYRNE:  29 Q  Okay.  To the west of the property described in  30 paragraph number five you say it's all Kitwancool?  31 A  Right.  32 Q       Could  there be a little Nisga'a  territory in there  33 too?  3 4 A  No.  There's a history about it.  The Nisga'a lost it.  3 5 Q  No Nisga'a territory to the west —  36 A   No.  37 Q   — Of your house?  3 8 A  They were there and then they lost it through a fight.  3 9 Q  Your house in Stewart, whose territory is that on?  40 A  It used to be the Nass — Nisga'a and then the Nass  41 themselves retreated from the Stikine.  The Stikine  42 already surrendered and the Nisga'a did not know so  43 Kitwancool came along and moved in.  They claimed.  44 Q  If I may, just so I understand that, it's your  45 understanding that the Nisga'a — I'm talking about  46 your house in Stewart.  47 A  Yes. 20  G.   Gunanoot   (for  the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   0'Byrne  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  6  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  First  it was  Nisga'a  or Nass  people,   then  they  retreated,   then  the Stikine people retreated  as well?  Right.  By the Stikines would you agree with — those are  Tahltans?  Yes.  Then the Kitwancools moved in?  Moved in.  And they have claim to that today?  Yes.  Well, supposed to be, but the way things are  going everything is in court.  Then the Nass is still  claiming — well, the Nisga'a still claiming all that  territory.  Are you aware that  the Nisga'a claim some or  all  or  part of  the  territory claimed in paragraph number  five?  Yes.  Right next our door, our boundary line.  Are you aware in around the Bowser Lake particularly  the Nisga'a lay or think they have a claim in there?  Yes, I have heard some of it on the news.  Do you know, or are you aware of any claim by the  Stikine or the Tahltans on your northern boundary?  Yes.  Can you tell me roughly where you think that might be  in relation to a landmark on your boundary, southern  most extension of the Stikine people's claim?  Well, their boundary line doesn't pass the second  Bell.  And you're referring to the second crossing of the  Bell-Irving on Highway 37?  Yeah.  In passing — when you were growing up and learning  the land from your uncle the highway, Highway 37,  wasn't there, was it?  No, there was nothing there.  So the references —  Pack train.  Pack train.  The Telegraph Trail?  Right.  In fact is it not the Telegraph Trail quite close or  nearby?  To second Bell.  Second Bell.  It's perhaps about 13 kilometres north  of the second Bell to the west?  You're in the wrong side.  Okay.  Correct me then, would you?  You're on the east side. 21  G.   Gunanoot   (for   the  Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr.   0'Byrne  1 Q      All right.  2 A      That's where the trail is.  3 Q      It comes quite  close  to the  road?  4 A      Yes.  5 Q      In  fact  there's a  sign  erected on  the road?  6 A  Right.  7 Q  It says Telegraph Trail and it's descriptive for the  8 tourists?  9 A  You can call it Owl Creek or where the Bell-Irving  10 comes in.  11 Q  That was Owl Creek, 0-W-L, Creek?  12 A  Up in that area.  And that creek is above Hodder.  13 Q  By above you mean north of Hodder Creek?  14 A   Yes.  15 MR. O'BYRNE:  Perhaps we'll take a short adjournment now.  16 MR. RUSH:  It's five after 11.  When do you expect to finish so  17 I have an idea?  18 MR. O'BYRNE:  If I can review my notes I can get a much better  19 idea when I come back.  20 MR. RUSH:  Fair enough.  21  22        (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS)  23  24 MR. O'BYRNE:  25 Q  Mr. Gunanoot, just turning to another part of your  26 affidavit, and perhaps I can refer you to — ouch.  27 MR. RUSH:  Refer you to ouch.  I don't think that's in the  28 affidavit.  29 MS. SIGURDSON:  Not with that spelling.  30 MR. O'BYRNE:  31 Q  Paragraph 8 which sets out that, "The boundary of the  32 Awiijii territory described above has remained the  33 same through my lifetime and David Gunanoot told me  34 that it has remained the same during his lifetime.  Be  3 5 told me that the members of the House..." —  36 A  Skiik'm Lax Ha.  37 Q       "Of  Skiik'm Lax  Ha had owned,  harvested and looked  38 after  the  Awiijii  territory  from generation  to  3 9                              generation.     David Gunanoot  toled me  that  the  40 information on  the  Awiijii   territory was passed onto  41 him by  the  former Skiik'm Lax  Ha,   (Daniel  Skawill) ,  42 the former Naagan..."  —  43 A      Naagan. \  44 Q      We'll   spell  that for  the —  45 MR. RUSH:  N-A-A-G-A-N.  46 MR. O'BYRNE:  47 Q  And that's Johnny Nagan? 22  G. Gunanoot (for the'Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1 A Johnson. '  2 MR. RUSH: Johnson Nagan.  3 MR. O'BYRNE:  4 Q Johnson Nagan, which is N-A-G-A-N, and the former  5 Geel?  6 A Geel.  7 Q G-E-E-L.  "(Simon Gunanoot) all of whom are now  8 deceased."  9 Were you aware that Johnson Nagan —  10 A Nagan.  11 Q — Died when David Gunanoot was  three years  old?  12 A I knew he passed away,  but my uncle was fairly young.  13 That's  the description I have on  that,   and I  could not  14 give  specific age.  15 Q Do you know your uncle's date  of birth?  16 A He's  — he was  87  when he passed away,   so he was  —  17 no,   he wasn't  87.     Was  19  —  1907   —  19   something like  18 that.  19 Q Do you know when this Johnson Nagan died?  20 A Yes.  Way prior.  21 Q Prior  to  1907?  22 A Starting  to get  me mixed up.     No.     He —  let's  see.  23 MR.   RUSH: The yes was  do you know when Johnson Nagan died.  24 MR.   O'BYRNE:     Correct.  25 A No,   I  don't recall  the year when he passed away.  26 Q Did your  uncle,   David Gunanoot,  ever  tell you how  old  27 he was when Johnson died?  28 A No.  29 Q Now, earlier you had in answer to my questions told me  30 that after you had sworn the affidavit on May the  31 11th, 1988 you went home and you looked at a map;  32 correct?  33 A Yes. \  3 4 Q And then your counsel produced to me a copy of map 9A,  35 part of map 9A.  That's correct, isn't it, Mr. Rush?  36 MR. RUSH: Yes.  37 MR. O'BYRNE:  3 8 Q And is that the map you looked at that day when you  39 went home?  40 A Yes.  Quite similar.  Same outlining and so forth of  41 the other chiefs around us, our area.  42 Q You also spoke about a map that was made in about  43 1985?  44 A Yes.  It's the same one — same kind.  45 Q The same kind or the same map?  46 A Same map, I believe.  As far as I can see.  47 Q All right.  You believe that the map you looked at 23  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1 after you signed the affidavit in May of 1988 was a  2 map that was produced in 1985?  3 A  Yes.  4 Q       And  you also  think  that  somebody may have taken  that  5 from you.     It's  not  in your  possession  now?  6 A       I believe one  of  my  cousins borrowed  it and never got  7 around  to  — well,   I  haven't been in  contact with  8 them.  9 Q  All right.  Are you able to get your hands on that map  10 again?  11 A  I probably will if I went and asked them.  12 Q  All right.  Well, I'd like you to go and ask them and  13 get it back and give it to your counsel.  We would  14 like to have that produced.  15 MR. RUSH:  I think it just should be stated for the record that  16 the map that has been referred to as the map that you  17 looked at that I produced this morning was dated —  18 when was it dated?  Sometime in 1988.  19 MS. SIGURDSON:  Yes.  20 MR. RUSH:  I can't recall when the map — it was in the summer  21 of 1988, so.  22 MR. O'BYRNE:  23 Q  Were there names written on the map you looked at?  24 A  No.  25 Q  There was no names.  Any place-names; creeks and  26 mountains and that sort of thing?  27 A  No.  28 Q  Now, the the boundaries that you describe in paragraph  29 5 of your affidavit, they're accurately set out on  30 that map that you looked at; is that correct?  31 A  Yes.  32 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  Now, you, Mr. 0'Byrne, were pointing to,  33 again, my map which is a photograph of Exhibit 9A.  3 4   MR. O'BYRNE:  Perhaps we can just put that out on the table so  3 5 we can look at it.  36 Q  I just folded back part of 9A, and up at the top is  37 the — it's labelled?  3 8 A  Skiik'm Lax Ha.  3 9 Q  Skiik'm Lax Ha.  And there's some black lines on the  40 map; correct?  41 A  There is.  42 Q  And there's some features in that.  There is Bowser  43 Lake down in the southwestern corner?  44 A  True.  45 Q  And Hodder Creek is shown up in the northeastern  46 corner?  47 A  True.  Second Bell. 24  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1 Q  And the territorial line you've drawn here crosses  2 over at second Bell-Irving?  3 A  True.  4 Q  And that accurately reflects the boundaries?  5 A  Yes.  6 Q  Okay.  Do you agree or disagree with the proposition  7 that the territory — northern boundary of the  8 territory is the east side of Teigen Creek, which is  9 the area I'm just going to show it to you.  It's  10 across the top, and I'm indicating an area that's  11 north of the area you're showing, upper left-hand  12 portion of the map as you're looking at it?  13 A  This is not our territory.  14 MR. RUSH:  He's pointing to the upper left-hand corner outside  15 the large black line.  16 MR. O'BYRNE:  17 Q  Are you aware that David Gunanoot told Neil John  18 Sterritt in December of 1976 the following description  19 of the territory known as the Awiijii.  I'll just read  20 it to you.  Okay.  "David Gunanoot says his territory  21 crosses Bowser River two and a half miles west or 2W.  22 Bowser Lake up past and around headwaters Treaty Creek  23 down E. side Teigen." That's spelled here  24 T-E-I-G-E-N.  "Creek south mouth on Snowbank Creek  25 along S. side Snowbank Creek to Bell-Irving River  26 across Bell-Irving River then north along east shore  27 B.I.", which I take to mean Bell-Irving, "to join  28 opposite Owl Creek then east up mountain."  29 Did you know that David Gunanoot had given that  30 description to Neil John Sterritt in 1976?  31 A  I have known my uncle to have discussions referring —  32 well, the area — the territory from time to time they  33 have talked and he told me we were talking about the  3 4 Skiik'm Lax Ha's territory.  Well, when he referred to  3 5 just tell me that I knew what he was saying, talking  36 about the boundary lines, and so forth, describing the  37 area.  38 Q  All right.  Well —  3 9 A  For mark points and all that.  40 Q  With particular reference though to the part that I've  41 read about the head waters of Treaty Creek and across  42 the east side of Teigen Creek, it appears from what  43 I've just read to you that your uncle, David Gunanoot,  44 told Neil John Sterritt that that was the northern  45 boundary, Teigen Creek.  My question is did your uncle  46 ever tell you that?  47 A  I know from what I've been through we run down Treaty. 25  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0*Byrne  1 Q  Now, you're taking your finger — you're drawing down  2 the —  3 A  North fork.  That's the top of Treaty.  4 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  5 A  And then you run right down into Sto'ot Xsitxemsem,  6 Bell-Irving River.  7 MR. RUSH:  The Gitksan name that was just indicated is number 19  8 on page three of the affidavit.  9 A  I do know that, and I do know we go right up  10 Bell-Irving River and over here to the creek of Owl  11 Creek, and then we do go right up — we share Awiijii  12 Peak is high, then our other landmark, main landmark  13 is over on to this side.  14 MR. RUSH:  Northeast corner.  15 MR. O'BYRNE:  16 Q  That's sort of the head waters of Hodder Creek?  17 A  Yes.  All the creeks running into Bell-Irving.  18 Q  Well, my question is did your uncle, David Gunanoot,  19 ever tell you that the northern boundary of the  20 territory was Teigen?  And I'll spell that.  That's  21 T-E-I-G-E-N Creek.  22 A  We have nothing to do there.  I mean Skiik'm Lax Ha,  23 that's not his territory.  24 Q  All right.  And your uncle then, David Gunanoot, never  25 said to you — sorry.  I'll rephrase that question.  26 Is it your evidence that you learned that Teigen  27 Creek was not part of your territory?  28 A  No.  We're right only up to Treaty.  29 Q  All right.  Did David Gunanoot have a trapline which  30 ran through the middle?  And I'm drawing sort of a  31 median line between the two boundary lines and little  32 notch down Treaty.  33 MR. RUSH:  Do you mean a government trapline — government  34 registered trapline?  35 MR. O'BYRNE:  We'll start with that government registered  36 trapline.  37 A  Yes.  3 8 Q  So your uncle then had a government registered  39 trapline outside of the territory of Skiik'm Lax Ha?  40 A  True.  41 Q  And did you trap with him on that?  42 A  Yes.  43 Q       And  did that go up  to Teigen Creek?  44 A       Yes.  45 Q  Okay.  Can you give me an explanation as to why your  46 .uncle had a registered trapline off the territory of  47 Skiik'm Lax Ha? 26  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1 A  Daniel was Skiik'm Lax Ba, and he favored uncle quite  2 a bit.  Somehow a gentleman had Treaty Creek, and how  3 he got Treaty Creek was through some fault of somebody  4 on the Stikine tribe and so the government took it  5 away and gave it to this person by the name of Scotty.  6 Q  Is that William Scott?  7 A  I don't really recall.  I just recall Scotty, 'cause  8 even creek named in his name.  And so Dan didn't like  9 the idea so he claimed it back.  The Crown did not  10 want to give it back so Dan got the land — got that  11 territory transferred over to Dave, well, through the  12 discussions with — with the registry, and that's how  13 uncle ended up with — with Treaty.  14 MR. FREY:  I'm sorry to interrupt.  We are talking about Daniel  15 Skawill?  16 A  Right.  17 MR. O'BYRNE:  18 Q      Would you agree  it's  up  to Skiik'm Lax  Ha  to determine  19 the proper boundaries  at  Treaty Creek and Bell-Irving  20 River?  21 A  No.  22 Q  Now, according to information I'm provided with  23 Awiijii, Bowser Lake territory, was obtained in a  24 peace settlement with the Stikine people?  25 A  True.  26 Q  Do you know when that was?  27 A  I'd say very early nineteen hundreds, eighteen  28 hundreds, or maybe late seventeens.  29 Q  And did your uncle, David Gunanoot, ever tell you how  30 much of the territory that's known as the Awiijii  31 Bowser Lake territory was given by the Stikine people?  32 A  Right up to second Bell below Bowser.  Well, as you  33 see Bowser River coming out and the head of Bowser,  3 4 and then up the north fork, like as in Treaty, so and  35 then you run down here toward — well, your first Bell  36 you already passed and then you go down to your  37 Surveyors.  3 8 Q  That's Surveyors Creek?  3 9 A  I mean Ivan.  40 Q  That would be Irving Creek?  41 A  Ivan.  Irving or Ivan.  42 Q  The spelling I have for that is I-R-V-I-N-G?  43 A       Yeah.  44 Q       That's  the  southern  —  45 A       Well,  we even  used to  come along  the Banna  Ridge.  46 Well,   you guys,   you call   it  Nass Bridge  there.     Okay.  47 That's  the  Hanna  Ridge.     And  then we go  right out 27  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  along the Hanna Ridge all the way right on up in  there.  We used to even trap in that area.  And you're indicating an area that is —  Of the Kitwancool side.  Of the Kitwancool side of the — west side of the  boundary?  While we're on our way — we're coming from Hazelton  or Kisgegas, depending which direction, wherever we  are when we're coming across.  We used to use that for  our start off hop, start off point to get everybody  started and excited.  Hey, look how many I caught.  Sort of keep the interest up?  Right.  Now, Daniel Skawill —  Yes.  — Had two main trapping cabins in the Awiijii Bowser  Lake area; is that correct.  One was up on Skowill  Creek?  That's up Awiijii.  And Skowill Creek, I believe?  By Awiijii Lake there.  I'm reading upside down.  So have I got it correctly?  Here's Awiijii.  This is Skowill.  That's where One Cabin was?  Yes.  The Second Cabin was down on Bowser Lake itself?  Yes.  Did your uncle use both those cabins?  We use all.  You know, when you're out trapping you  always make use of everything you have.  And we have  always worked our Bowser as much as possible, because  it's big area.  So you always had to have a main cast  there, because the plane can land in there easy.  Same  thing up in Gilbert Lake.  There's another lake where  we land.  If we're gonna be facing the Treaty area,  okay, we land our supplies in Gilbert Lake, or  otherwise we landed on Bowser.  And that's when you used to fly in, or have your  supplies flown in so you could trap the area?  Right.  What years would that be?  They were doing that a lot — a lot longer before I  was born.  I guess since the planes were starting to  be of service.  What — what clan do you belong to?  Wolf.  Right.     And Johnny Wilson,   Skiik'm Lax  Ha,   he's  frog, 28  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  47  A  is he not?  That's eagle.  He's eagle.  Are you aware that in answer to some  interrogatories that were answered by Johnny Wilson as  Skiik'm Lax Ha he stated that David Gunanoot and Gerry  Gunanoot have trapped in my territory without  permission?  No, I never heard that.  Had you ever discussed that with Johnny Wilson,  Skiik'm Lax Ha, that you were trapping in that area  without permission?  I'm talking about the area in  paragraph 5 of your affidavit.  I have full rights in that area.  How do you get your full rights in that territory?  I was born in there.  All right.  Any other way do you get them through?  I was raised there.  And did those rights come to you through your Uncle  David Gunanoot?  Yes.  Through our own Indian traditional.  That's our  proper way.  That's the reason why the land is taken  care of from generation to generation.  Perhaps you could just explain that to me a little  bit.  Your rights to trap in this area you've  described then come through your uncle, David  Gunanoot?  Yes.  And would your sons then have a right to trap in this  area that you described near paragraph 5?  As long as I live.  Well, was your right to trap in this area as long as  your uncle, David Gunanoot, was alive?  No.  That right continues forever?  Yes, because it's on my mother's way.  We're on the  same side.  All right.  So the right then comes to you from your  mother?  Because I'm a wolf, my mother was a wolf, my uncle was  a wolf, my uncle's mother was, my grandmother was a  wolf, and we were given the rights right clean through  because of Daniel Skawill, and then our grandfather  which was Geel, Simon Peter Gunanoot, been going down  generation to generation and cared for.  Did your uncle, David Gunanoot, ever tell you that  there was no Gitksan name for Bowser Lake?  Dam Suu Tsii Ada. 29  G.   Gunanoot  (for  the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   0'Byrne  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  MR. RUSH  13  14  MR. O'BY  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  26  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  You've given  a word  in Gitksan.     Is  that  the Gitksan  name for Bowser Lake?  Yes.  The name  that you've  just given,   isn't that a Stikine  name?  No.  How we say in our translation in Gitksan, but the  other one is in Stikine language.  Do you know what that one is?  Dam Suu Tsii Ada.  Sounds a bit like Susie, doesn't it?  Yes.  It means the same thing.  That's number one on page three.  Is that what you  pointed to?  *E:  If you can't recall it that's —  It's a tongue twister.  Are you fairly familiar with the registered trapline  of David Gunanoot as it was at the Treaty Creek?  Yes.  And did that registered trapline continue around the  head of Treaty Creek?  And I'm just showing you the  area that would be south of the —  Teigen?  Yes, the Teigen Creek.  Teigen is a different, totally different area.  It's  not on the registry map.  It is, but it's not our  territory for that certain specific registry map.  All right.  But is it on the registered trapline?  Is  that northern point on the registered trapline?  No.  It's over the point of the high mountain.  Registered northern point is south of Teigen Creek and  the mountain?  Yes.  There's the mountain and ridge right here that  runs in angle like this.  Okay.  Now, you're describing with your hand sort of a  southeasterly curve, if I can put it that way?  Well, northeast and then south like.  And sort of goes down the middle of the notch in the  map?  Yeah.  And the top in the northwest corner of your territory?  Right.  And then Teigen Creek goes down the other  other side and comes into your Bell.  What you've done is you've indicated Teigen Creek  would then be to the east and flow southeasterly?  Right.  To join the Bell River? 30  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. 0'Byrne  1 A  Right.  That's off — entirely different territory  2 altogether.  3 Q  Do you have any rights to trap in there?  4 A  Teigen?  No, I have nothing to do with.  I looked down  5 it before, but just to look at the area — well,  6 scenery.  7 Q  Just went sightseeing?  8 A  Yeah.  None of my — none of my business in there, but  9 I just looked around from the mountain top on our  10 side.  11 Q  Just curious to see what's on the other side of the  12 mountain?  13 A  Well, more or less was nice day and I had lots of  14 time.  15 Q  In about 1985, late '85, early '86, did you go down to  16 the tribal council office, get a copy of the map that  17 showed this territory and take it to Jesse Sterritt?  18 A  I believe that's the map I was referring to.  19 Q  Is that the map that's now gone missing?  20 A  Yeah.  I believe my cousins got it.  21 Q  Do you think you would recognize a copy of that map if  22 you saw it again?  23 A  I probably would.  If I could find it I would sure  24 show it to you.  25 Q  Okay.  I'm producing to you a photocopy which has —  26 appears to be a map.  It's titled in the bottom  27 right-hand corner in typewriting and it says this.  28 "This is Exhibit 8 to the commission evidence of Jesse  29 Sterritt dated January 21st, 1986." Is that the map  30 you've been talking about?  31 A  Yeah, this is practically the same thing.  32 Q  It appears to be a photocopy of it?  33 MR. RUSH:  He says it's practically the same thing.  3 4 A  It looks almost the same.  What's Bowser doing over  35 here?  36 MR. RUSH:  Pointing to the left-hand side of the map.  37 A  Which — this is not right at all.  38 MR. O'BYRNE:  3 9 Q  Okay.  You found an error, have you?  40 A  This is not even — this is not the map.  No, this is  41 not the map at all.  42 Q  Have you ever seen that map before?  43 A  No.  This is not right at all.  This whole thing here  44 is not right.  45 Q  If you just run your fingers around something here  46 what's wrong with it?  47 A  Your Bowser Lake is there, and then you end up with 31  G.   Gunanoot   (for   the  Plfs.)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   0*Byrne  1 Bowser down here.  2 Q  You just don't know what this is?  3 MR. RUSH:  That's not what he said.  4 A  Then the lake is here.  5 MR. O'BYRNE:  6 Q  What lake is that, please?  7 A  Todedada.  8 MR.   O'BYRNE:     Let's   spell  that.     T-0-D-E-D-A-D-A.     I'm sorry,  9 Mr.   Rush,   I'm standing  upside down.  10 MR.   RUSH:     On  the  map  it's  spelled T-0-D-E-D-A-D-A.  11 MR.   O'BYRNE:     There  is another letter.  12 MR.   RUSH:     L.     I  assume  that would be lake.  13 A      Lake.     You got your Gilbert Lake way out.     This  is  not  14 right  at all.     This  is  crazy.  15 MR.   O'BYRNE:  16 Q      Well,   did you  ever  take a  copy of  that  —  17 A      No.  18 Q  — And give it to Jesse Sterritt?  19 A  No.  20 Q  Did you get a copy of a map and give it to Jesse  21 Sterritt in 1985, '86?  22 A  I show — I remember showing — I don't recall  23 giving — saying that there's a fault in — in the  24 boundary line.  And I asked if she would speak to  25 Johnny, since I couldn't get ahold of Johnny at the  26 time, and I was — what I was trying to say was this  27 line should be corrected immediately before we end up  28 in the — in a problem in getting it right.  29 Q  Okay.  Can you show me on this photocopy of map 9A  30 where the problem was that you were talking about?  31 A  Well, you're ending up — you're ending up taking most  32 of the Bowser right clean out, and you're not even  33 . leaving Gilbert Lake out, and you're cutting almost  3 4 half of Treaty clean off.  3 5 Q  So there was a mistake that moved the westerly  36 boundary of the territory of Skiik'm Lax Ha to the  37 east.  And could you — for example, was Mount  3 8 Anderson inside or outside?  3 9 MR. RUSH:  Of what?  40 MR. O'BYRNE:  41 Q  Well, the area that you were correcting was Mount  42 Anderson included or not included?  43 MR. RUSB:  Sorry.  Included in what?  Included in what was being  44 corrected or what was to be the corrected version?  45 MR. O'BYRNE:  46 Q  Okay.  There was a problem you wanted to have  47 corrected in the east and the western boundary; 32  G.   Gunanoot   (for   the  Plfs.)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   0'Byrne  1 correct?  2 A  Yeah.  3 Q  You had just run your hand down the map to show me  4 where this problem was; correct?  5 A  True.  6 Q  All right.  Could you do that again and we'll do it  7 slowly so we can get a verbal description of what  8 you're talking about.  9 A  I know looking at this map just now —  10 MR. RUSH:  That's the map that was shown previously.  I think  11 trapline number 0616T011.  12 MR. O'BYRNE:  It's also Exhibit 8 to the commission evidence of  13 Jesse Sterritt, January 21st, 1986.  14 A  On that map was shown somewhere around just a little  15 past the graveyard point the boundary line was  16 running, and then you end up Mount Anderson, leaving  17 out Mount Anderson I believe it is.  If we see it  18 again we can compare it.  You're leaving out your  19 Gilbert Lake to Todedada Lake, and you're leaving  20 practically almost all north right out.  21 Q  So you went to Jesse Sterritt to get her to talk to  22 Johnny Wilson?  23 A  So they be aware of it, and so they could say  24 something if they were asked.  Well, trying to —  25 well, you know, in your own house you always try to  26 keep everything in order.  27 Q  And was that in 1985 you did that?  28 A  I don't recall when it was.  It was a couple of years  29 ago.  I know that.  30 Q  And did you take a map to Jesse Sterritt at that time?  31 A  I believe I did.  32 Q  But it's not the map I just showed you that's Exhibit  33 8?  3 4 A  I'm not sure.  I know we were discussing boundary was  35 fouled up on this side and I referred to it.  36 Q  And you've just indicated this side, and that is the  37 western boundary of the territory of Skiik'm Lax Ha?  3 8 A  Yeah.  I referred to that was completely wrong, and I  39 was saying to her that should be immediate action put  40 to it.  41 Q  Do you know where the boundary description came from?  42 Who had that boundary description?  43 MR. RUSH:  Which one?  44 A  No.  45 MR. O'BYRNE:  The wrong one.  46 A  I didn't get to know.  47 Q  Did you discuss that improper western boundary with 33  G.   Gunanoot   (for  the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   0'Byrne  1 your  uncle,   David Gunanoot?  2 A       Yes.     And he  told me go and  see Johnny and  see what  3 they got  to  say about  this,   or  if  they are aware  of  4 it,   or  if  they're  not aware of  it.  5 Q      Did your  uncle,   David  Gunanoot,   tell  you that was  the  6 wrong boundary?  7 A       I  showed him when  I   seen  the map.  8 Q      What did he  say?  9 A      He  said that was not  right at all.     He knew  right away  10 when he  say what in  the world happened  to Bowser here.  11 He  says,   "What happened to Gilbert Lake.     What  12 happened  to Todedada Lake and North Fork?  13 Q      Was  that  the  only  time you've ever had to make a  14 correction in  the map boundaries of your  territory?  15 MR.   RUSH:     Well,   that's  Skiik'm Lax  Ha's territory.  16 MR.   O'BYRNE:     Skiik'm Lax  Ha's  territory.  17 A      As  far  as  I  know there was  no other  dispute  that I  18 knew  of.  19 Q      So  that's  the only  time you've ever had to make a  20 correction?  21 A  As far as I know.  22 Q  And was it corrected?  23 A  That's — yes, it's corrected right now according to  24 this.  25 MR.   RUSH:     Pointing  to the map overlay  9A.  26 A      I  can't lay  it  out any better  than that,   'cause  if  I  27 did I might  end up  fouling up  somewhere.  28 MR.   O'BYRNE:  29 Q  Did you — were you aware that Daniel Skawill had a  30 will when he died?  31 A  All I know was that he was in favour of Uncle David  32 having Treaty Creek and all rights to the territory.  33 Q  Did you know that Daniel Skawill had willed his house  34 in Stewart, his land in Hazelton to his sons Bob  3 5 Skawill and Steve Skawill?  36 A  Dan did have property up at Stewart, and he did have  37 property in Hazelton.  Property was passed to Bob and  3 8 then it was passed over to Stephen because of Bob's  3 9 deceased, passed away.  40 Q  That's Stephen Skawill?  41 A  Yes.  And I don't know what Stephen done to the  42 property.  He — it was handed out in the feast, I  43 believe, to some other member.  44 Q  Do you know anything about a dispute between Bob and  45 Stephen Skawill and Jesse Sterritt about the ownership  46 or the rights to trap to the territory of Skiik'm Lax  47 Ha? 34  17 MR. FREY  18 MR. RUSH  19 MR. RUSH  G.   Gunanoot   (for   the  Plfs.)  Cross-exam by  Mr.   0'Byrne  Cross-exam by  Mr.   Frey  1 A      No,   I  don't believe I got  into any of  that argument.  2 Q      But did you know about  it?  3 A      Not  that  I  know of.     There was  no argument  as   far  as  I  4 know.     Wherever we all went  I never knew of  any  5 disagreements.  6 Q  Just to clarify something, were you aware that Dan  7 Skawill had willed his trapline to his sons?  8 A  They were enlisted.  9 Q  Excuse me?  10 A  They were on the list like in a company manner.  11 Q  You were aware that he by will — Dan Skawill had a  12 will and in that will he said he wanted his traplines  13 to go to his sons.  Did you know that?  14 A  No.  15 MR. O'BYRNE:  I have no further questions of the witness, Mr.  16 Rush.  I only have just a couple of questions.  Just before you start.  First, the Provincial Government lawyers asked you  20 questions and now counsel for Canada will ask you some  21 questions, just so you know who these cast of  22 characters are.  23  24 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. FREY:  25 Q  There's only two areas that I wanted to ask about.  26 And the first one is that when Mr. 0'Byrne was asking  27 you questions he mentioned that you were raised by the  28 elders.  And I'm not trying to recite your evidence  29 exactly, but I believe you said you were raised by the  30 elders and you didn't run around like the other kids.  31 That you were stuck with the elders.  I take it that  32 your upbringing in Hazelton was somewhat different  33 than other children of your age; is that correct?  3 4 A  True.  35 Q  How was it different?  36 A  I didn't get to be around town.  I had to learn to  37 handle horses, I had to learn to take care of  3 8 ranching, I had a responsibility from day-to-day like  3 9 I did out on the trapline.  40 Q  And for children of your age who lived in Hazelton was  41 that rather unusual to have those sort of  42 responsibilities at that age?  43 A  As you see children nowadays they're all over the  44 place and very few of them are ever at home attending  45 to the ranch, helping the father or grandfather or  46 whatever.  47 Q  So — sorry.  Go ahead. 35  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  Q  6  9  10  11  12  MR.  RUSH:  13  14  MR.  FREY:  15  MR.  RUSH:  16  A  17  MR.  FREY:  16  19  MR.  RUSH:  20  MR.  FREY:  21  MR.  RUSH:  22  MR.  FREY:  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  So you find that children in town is just like  children in the city, they don't have a clue of how to  put a saddle on let alone shoe a horse.  Where we  learned to shoe a horse and put a saddle on a horse or  the harness, because that was our main source of  power.  Put it that way, working power.  All right.  So when you grew up almost all of the  children stayed in Hazelton and went to school there  and lived in Hazelton, and you were the exception  because you went out on the trapline and you did all  these things?  I object to that.  How can he possibly speak for all  the children in Hazelton?  I'm saying as far as you know.  Ask if he can speak for all the children in Hazelton.  I can't.  Mr. Rush, I'm just going by his recollection of his  childhood.  Could you speak for all the children in Canada?  No.  Well, go ahead.  The children you knew —  Like I phrased it, there is very few that are insisted  on various things.  Okay, they will be attending to  those various things, attend as compared to the  others.  Very few of us I know of on my own group that  was into trapping and hunting, learning the areas  around us, which we were curious of, and testing our  own skills, which was always a challenge from  day-to-day when we were out setting up camp and making  it as comfortable as possible, and seeing that the  animals that we have with us such as horses or dogs,  hunting dogs which they were.  They weren't just dogs  that run around town and don't even know how — how to  bark at a moose or keep a moose at a stand still while  you're getting up to within range to shoot it, or a  bear, how to chase a bear up the tree, for example, or  if it's wintertime.  Okay.  Can that dog go and chase  a marten up a tree, things like this.  So the children that you knew, there were very few  that were doing that?  Very few.  All right.  The other thing I wanted to ask about was,  if I understand it correctly, your right to be there  on the territory.  Skiik'm Lax Ha. 36  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  45  46  47  Skiik'm Lax Ha is because you're a wolf; is that  correct?  No.  My rights came right from my grandfather and  Daniel Skawill.  And were they — were they Lax Gibuu?  Yes.  Sorry?  No.     They're not  all  Lax Gibuu.     Related like an  uncle  that give  rights.     I  guess you could  refer  to it as  in  a will.  All right.  So if I can put it this way, the rights  that you now have started with Daniel Skawill and your  uncle; is that right?  True.  All right.  And it's not as if any Kisgegas wolf —  No.  — Can go on this territory?  Oh, yes, in my territory, but on Skiik'm Lax Ha's  territory they have to come by me or go to Johnny  Wilson themselves and ask permission.  All right.  Well, I was —  Or state that they are gonna be in that territory as  long as they have some other member of the — that  house.  All right.  Well, I am asking about Skiik'm Lax Ha's  territory, I'm not asking about your territory.  If some other wolf was to come on to Skiik'm Lax Ha's  territory he would have to ask permission.  All right.  And the rights that you have to be on this  territory, they are rights you have for the rest of  your life?  True.  In other words, if it turned out that you hadn't been  brought up the way you were, and you weren't such a  good man out on the line —  I'd be in trouble.  Would Johnny Wilson — would he have any right — if  he weren't such a good trapper and he didn't go out  would Johnny Wilson have any ability to come to you  and say, Gerry, you're not using that territory.  I'm  going to take you off and give it to somebody else.  Would he have the right?  He has rights if I was around Bowser Lake or Awiijii.  You can't really cover Awiijii on it.  Or if I had  Bowser Lake or Hodder Lake or Banna Ridge area, Irving  Creek area or Taft, around those areas anywhere, sure  he's got a right to tell me to leave it. Pack up and 37  G.   Gunanoot   (for  the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by  Mr.  Frey  1 move to Awiijii  or  to Treaty.  2 Q       All  right.     But  there is  — up in Awiijii,   Treaty,   up  3 in  that area  could he ask you to pack  up  and move out  4 of  there?  5 A  Well, Treaty — that's off the record or what?  6 MR. RUSH:  It's all on the record.  7 MR. FREY:  8 Q  I don't want to get anything confused here, but I take  9 that what you're saying is if we are talking about the  10 territory you described in your affidavit there's one  11 part that Johnny generally uses and there is another  12 part that you generally use; is that right?  13 A  True.  14 Q  I'm not going to ask you about the part that you  15 generally use.  All right?  16 A  Okay.  17 Q  And what I'm saying is that if you weren't such a good  18 trapper, and if you weren't out there, and if you  19 didn't know how to trap, didn't use that territory,  20 would Johnny Wilson have the right to come to you and  21 say Gerry, you're not using it.  You have to go.  I'm  22 going to put someone else there?  23 A  I wouldn't have been allowed there in the first place  24 alone if I didn't have the experience.  25 Q  All right.  And is that — and what — I believe what  26 you said is that the territory is more or less in my  27 hands.  That's what you said during Mr. 0'Byrne's  28 cross-examination.  Is that why David Gunanoot had it  29 as well?  30 A  True.  Awiijii territory.  31 Q  He had those rights.  He was a good trapper and went  32 out there and he used the territory?  33 A  We always select the one with most experience.  3 4 Q  All right.  Now, I believe you said that your sons,  3 5 for example, they won't have the right?  36 A  They're on the mother's side, different land.  37 Q All right. Now, what about your nephews who are in —  3 8 in your house. Let's assume that none of your nephews  3 9 developed the same skills in trapping that you have.  40 All right.  And let's assume that some of Johnny's  41 nephews are very good trappers.  42 A  Yeah.  43 Q      Will Johnny  or  his  successor have the right  to  say  to  44 your  nephews  I'm  sorry,  you don't know anything about  45 this.     You  can't  use  this line any more.     I'm going  to  46 have my nephews  use it.     Would he have the right to do  47 that?     And  I'm talking about your part  of  the 38  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1 territory.  2 A  No.  There is always a level of respect of any house.  3 You cannot just tell somebody to pack up and leave.  4 You have to think back into the history, into the  5 generations, and if a person that was that ignorant,  6 well, then the person has to be dealt with.  7 Q  All right.  But your successors in the House of Nii  8 Kyap —  9 A  Yes.  10 Q  — Will have in newer generations the right to be on  11 that territory?  12 A  True, yes.  13 Q  They have that right even if Johnny Wilson or his  14 successors didn't want them there?  15 A  It will have to be negotiated.  16 Q  All right.  17 A  We'll have to discuss these things with one another  18 just like we do.  19 Q  All right.  And these rights that your nephews in Nii  20 Kyap will have in future generations that all flows  21 from Dan Skawill?  22 A  True.  23 MR. FREY:  All right.  Thank you.  24  25 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. RUSH:  26 Q  And just in respect — I get to ask you some  27 questions.  You've had a couple of hours so I get a  28 few minutes.  29 A   Okay.  30 MR. O'BYRNE:  Take as long as you wish, Mr. Rush.  31 MR. RUSH:  I'd like to, but I think I would have some  32 objections.  33 Q  But, anyway, Mr. Gunanoot, just with respect to the  34 questions that Mr. Frey just asked you, in your answer  3 5 you said it will have to be negotiated.  And did you  36 mean negotiated with Skiik'm Lax Ha?  37 A  Well, it's like I referred to you have a family, okay,  3 8 you discuss your problems and you discuss your  3 9 improvements and things like that.  Well, it's like  40 the same thing.  It's a family matter where — where a  41 group of people have to come and sit down at a table  42 and discuss who — if there's anybody abusing it has  43 to be brought out.  Have to be discussed everything.  44 So if I had say only one granddaughter or whatever,  45 all right, the children from her will have to be  46 recognized.  It's got to be taken in consideration  47 and, all right, whoever family is the head of the 39  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  Q  territory will have to recognize my granddaughter so  that when she starts having her children whoever is  spokesman or whoever has authority of the territory  would recognize her at any time.  Just — the present Skiik'm Lax Ha is Johnny Wilson?  Yes.  And my question to you is in response to the answer  you gave to Mr. Frey when you said negotiated you  didn't say with whom.  Is it with Skiik'm Lax Ha?  Yes.  Skiik'm Lax Ha, and all others on sides.  Like  Geel and Niist, and all them around the other  territory on outside of our boundary line.  When you referred in your evidence today to Dan, were  you referring to Dan Skawill?  Yeah.  And does Dan Skawill hold the name of Skiik'm Lax Ha?  Right.  And when you've referred in your evidence today to  uncle and you've said that uncle is Uncle Dave, is  that David Gunanoot?  Yes.  And  that•s  the  former Nii Kyap?  True.  Okay.  And in respect of the territory of Skiik'm Lax  Ha that you've described in your affidavit, you are  asked questions about if you had discussed with  Skiik'm Lax Ha about your giving the description in  the affidavit.  Do you recall that?  Yeah.  And did you have — have you had discussions with him  on one occasion, over many occasions, over many years  or can you say now it is — how many times you've  discussed the Skiik'm Lax Ha territory with Johnny?  Shortest way to say it is numbers of times.  Okay.  And in respect of the Skiik'm Lax Ha territory  do you have the — do you have the rights to hunt and  trap in that territory of Skiik'm Lax Ha's?  Yes.  You said that you at one time brought in supplies via  plane you flew into Gilbert Lake and into Bowser Lake.  Do you remember that?  Yes.  We at times when we have enough money the  supplies — well, depending the area that we are going  to trap.  If we're gonna trap around Bowser that's  where the supplies land, because it will be closer to  the area.  Okay. 40  G. Gunanoot (for the Plfs.)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29          1  MR.    RUSH  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  And then if we are going to be in North Fork area or  over Awiijii we land into Gilbert Lake.  Were there times when you packed in supplies?  Yes.  What means did you pack them in by?  Dog team and backpack.  You expressed a familiarity with horses.  Did you ever  pack horse in?  We use horses not too often, because while you do that  in early — well, late fall before snow, before winter  moves in so that the horses still have hay or can  still feed off the meadows and you get in your —  whatever may be your hardware wherever.  Well, there's  a couple of times we brought in stoves by horse pack.  And so that's a lot of — a lot of work balancing out  a stove.  Well, they're not that big.  You can say  they're cast and they're about that wide and about two  and a half feet long.  That's going through the bush  and mountain side it gets tricky.  When did David Gunanoot pass on, what was the date?  Last year November.  Of 19 —  '87.  '87.  At the time that David passed on where was he  living?  We were living in Hazelton.  Were you there living with him at that time?  Yes, I was with him.  I was taking care of him.  Okay.  Thank you.  (WITNESS ASIDE)  (PROCEEDINGS CONCLUDED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best  skill and ability.  flu.  VC^A*  Peri McHale, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.
https://iiif.library.ubc.ca/presentation/cdm.delgamuukw.1-0018497/manifest


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Dan Glosser '73: A Glittering Career in Showbiz
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"I never made plans so I was never disappointed," Dan Glosser '73 said about his career and life. "I just let life happen. I show up every day prepared to learn and have fun with the most talented, diverse, experienced, fun-loving, caring, dysfunctional friends I've been blessed to have in my life."
Member of Adelphi University's Profiles in Success program.
Manager of Music Clearance, CBS Television Studios
Favorite Professor: Cantor David Benedict
Advice for current students, or new graduates: "Don't second guess yourself. Go with your feelings."
Fondest Memory of Adelphi: "The constant encouragement to be my true self."
"But the key thing is to show up," said Glosser, who over the course of his personal life and professional career, showed up often and enthusiastically to a glittering show business career, working with and befriending some of the biggest names in music and entertainment.
Glosser, who grew up in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, discovered his love of music and entertainment at a young age. "I was inspired to play piano by watching Jo Ann Castle play ragtime piano on The Lawrence Welk Show. So I began taking piano lessons from Mrs. Kern in a church basement while I was in grade school," Glosser said, "My grandmother would encourage my love of music and theatre. When I would visit her in Brooklyn, she would take me to see the hit Broadway shows and always include a visit to Radio City Music Hall to see a first-run film and The Rockettes." Glosser continued to attend theater, concerts, opera and as many cultural events as he could while he was a student at Laurelcrest Preparatory School in Bristol, Connecticut. "I was very fortunate. The school provided outings to venues such as The Hartford Stage Company and The Bushnell Auditorium in Hartford, where I later performed as musical director for the national touring company of the original production of Chicago," he said.
Despite his creative passions, Glosser entered Adelphi as a business major, with his parents placing him on the path to working in the family's department store in Pennsylvania. "I originally chose Adelphi because it was a comfortable environment and it was intimate enough to meet people without feeling overwhelmed," he said. "Thanks to having my picture and bio in the Adelphi University 'Sidekick' (The Freshman Directory), the very first day I was on campus, I was discovered by Robert Wynn Jackson '70, director of the Adelphi Octet and became the associate conductor which gave me an immediate social outlet, new friends and I joined a fraternity."
"When I realized Adelphi had a music program, I switched majors," Glosser recalled. During his time in the music program, he performed in numerous concerts and stage performances with the Music and Drama Departments. Along with the Adelphi Octet, he was a member of the Adelphi Glee Club directed by Professor Lawrence Rasmussen and he was the musical director for Dames At Sea directed by Joel Harvey at the Adelphi Little Theatre produced by Gold Mask and the Department of Speech and Dramatic Arts.
Among Glosser's favorite classes was Symphony and Wagner with Cantor David Benedict. "Cantor Benedict was a very talented and entertaining educator who presented the material in a fun and relatable manner. He brought the famous composers and musicians to life by discussing their personal lives and loves, and creating a terrific learning atmosphere," Glosser said.
Glosser graduated from Adelphi in 1973 with a Bachelor of Arts degree in Music Education. After a year of teaching kindergarten through third grade music in the Bellport Central School District on Long Island, he took a job as an office manager with the Rodgers and Hammerstein Musical Theater Licensing Office in Long Island City, NY. While with Rodgers and Hammerstein, Glosser became involved in local community theater and small stage productions. "Whatever show I was offered, I took," he said. "I learned that even the most humble situation can create amazing experiences and lifelong relationships."
He quickly rose to being a professional pianist and musical director in regional theater, summer stock, dinner theater, Off-Broadway, and cabaret, with productions like Tintypes for the Actors Theatre of Louisville, the original national tour of Chicago, Irma La Douce starring legendary performer Juliet Prowse and the 1984 Los Angeles Company of 42nd Street. "42nd Street was the ultimate. It was all I ever wanted to do since I was a kid — to play piano in the pit of a big brassy Broadway show with tons of tap dancing," said Glosser. A huge hit like 42nd Street attracted some of the biggest stars of Hollywood to the show and Glosser found himself meeting the likes of Cary Grant, Lucille Ball and Debbie Reynolds.
Soon after his 42nd Street run concluded, Glosser was introduced to Onna White, the Oscar-winning choreographer, and Joan Rivers, both of whom became mentors and close friends. Glosser worked with Onna White on several stage projects and through the generosity of Joan Rivers, he landed the job of production assistant and music coordinator for The Late Show Starring Joan Rivers for The Fox Television Network.
Following The Late Show Starring Joan Rivers, Glosser expanded to the business end of the music industry, working in music clearance for Dick Clark Productions. He then became music supervisor for the pilot episode for The All-New Mickey Mouse Club on the Disney Channel in 1989, and music supervisor for the pilot of a new incarnation of Name That Tune starring Peter Allan for Orion Television.
In April 1990, Glosser was hired by the Paramount Pictures Television Music Department and since that time has risen to the current position of manager of music clearance for CBS Television Distribution, working on the studio's daily, syndicated television shows including The Arsenio Hall Show, Entertainment Tonight, The Insider, The Dr, Phil Show, The Doctors, Rachael Ray, Judge Judy, The Talk and many others.
In 1994, Paramount Television was purchased by Viacom and in 2000, Viacom bought CBS. Viacom then merged Paramount Television with CBS Productions creating CBS Television Studios. Although his employer has changed its corporate name several times, Glosser has remained there for the past 26 years and feels like his early experiences prepared him well. He said, "Once you've worked in theater, you can do anything else with great confidence."
Todd Wilson
Strategic Communications Director
p – 516.237.8634
e – twilson@adelphi.edu

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Even in competitive industries like retail, businesses can boost profits and provide good jobs, argues MIT business professor Zeynep Ton. Her new book, The Good Jobs Strategy, explains how investing in workers and implementing smart business practices can benefit investors, customers, and millions of employees. Ton's groundbreaking research provides important evidence that we can raise the minimum wage without hurting businesses' bottom line, and should help to inform the national dialogue about inequality. America's Tomorrow spoke with Ton about her research.
It is a strategy that yields great value to investors and customers while creating good jobs for employees. And it is a strategy that doesn't depend on charging customers more. The good jobs strategy involves two components: investment in people and a good design in operations. The strategy is not just about paying employees more or treating them nicely. It's about making smart operational decisions that transform the investment in people into high performance.
The good jobs strategy benefits everyone. It works great for employees because they have good jobs. The companies I studied paid their employees higher wages than their competitors. They do a better job providing more predictable schedules. They design jobs in a way that provides meaning in the job and sets up employees for success. It's good for customers because they end up having low prices and great customer service. And investors also benefit. When companies pursue the bad jobs strategy, the pervasive operational problems have a big effect on their sales and profits. They end up leaving money on the table because their operations are not that good.
How do companies implement a good jobs strategy?
The companies I studied were all making similar and smart operational choices. First, offer fewer but better choices for customers. Second, combine operations standardization with employee empowerment. Third, cross-train employees, and fourth, operate with enough staffing so that employees can do their jobs well. These four choices really enabled the good jobs strategies by reducing cost, increasing the productivity of workers, and enabling employees to have an effect on company profits.
Most people want to do a good job at work. They don't go to work thinking, how they could mess this up. They want to contribute. The companies that offer the good jobs strategy do this well.
Tell me about a company doing it right.
QuikTrip, based in Tulsa, Oklahoma, is one of the best Fortune 100 companies to work for, and has been for many years in a row. Their wages are higher than the industry average, and they provide more stable schedules and room for advancement than their competitors. Not surprisingly, they have one of the lowest turnover rates. At the same time, they offer the lowest prices in their industry, outstanding customer service, and thrive financially. Their per store profits are almost double the top quartile in their industry and they have one of the highest sales per square foot in the industry.
In my interviews, several QuikTrip employees told me they loved their job because they were held to very high standards. The company had very high expectations of them and they loved being able to meet those expectations. They told me how their job is about making people happy. This is a convenience-store chain with gas stations; part of their job is cleaning toilets and gas pumps. But they see their job as so much bigger than that.
Can the good jobs strategy reduce poverty and inequality?
Absolutely. Look at companies that follow the good jobs strategy. Employees with full-time jobs at these companies are nowhere near the poverty line. Millions of people work in retail, so this could have a large impact.
What will it take to move the needle on this?
We can all do our part to encourage more companies to adopt this. As business school academics, we can educate our students, the future business leaders who will manage these companies, to show them you can run a business and make money by satisfying multiple stakeholders at the same time.
Customers can clearly vote with their own feet. They can choose restaurants and stores that provide good jobs.
What policy levers would help?
This is not my expertise. But if the minimum wage were to increase, that would put pressure on companies to find ways to improve the productivity of their employees.
Why don't more companies pursue a good jobs strategy?
There's a mindset that the only way to get the lowest prices is to pay employees as little as possible, treat them as a cost to be minimized. This has become the conventional wisdom. And companies tend to have more short-term focus than long-term focus. The good jobs strategy is about making a set of choices that improve the productivity of employees and that ensure that employees can play a big role in driving profits. It's not an easy strategy to execute but this should not be an excuse, given how much of a social problem we have and how much everyone can benefit.
This interview originally appeared in the February 12, 2014 issue of the America's Tomorrow newsletter.


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