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International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Trials and Errors
Merged: Jeffrey MacDonald did it. He really did.
Tags "A Wilderness of Error" , "Fatal Vision" , errol morris , Jeffrey MacDonald , Joe MacGinniss , murder cases
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30th January 2018, 06:49 PM #3561
BStrong
HM isn't even trying anymore - wash rinse repeat and self contradictory posts are so 2017.
Music is what feelings sound like
"Dulce bellum inexpertīs." - Erasmus
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Henri McPhee
Location: Bristol UK
Kassab got it right at the beginning when he is on record as saying MacDonald should not have been charged. It was a case of opinions and false evidence and disregarding leads and suspects.
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31st January 2018, 02:30 AM #3563
Originally Posted by byn63
Evidence and Facts:
1. Colette's blood on inmate's pj top BEFORE it was torn - FACT
6. torn surgical gloves with Colette's blood on them in the MB bedding
10. No pj fibers or splinters in the living room where inmate alleged he'd been attacked.
11. No finger prints on the phones.
12. No fingerprints found on the knife inmate claimed to have removed from Colette's chest.
13. The knife inmate claimed to have removed from Colette's chest was never in her chest.
17. None of the "hippies" matched the description as given by inmate.
18. inmate lied about the extent of his injuries (and still does today)
19. murder weapons all came from the apartment
20. murder weapons all found just outside the apartment when MPs searched.
21. inmate's wounds are self-inflicted.......
these are just the first few of the FACTS.......just because you don't LIKE the FACTS henri doesn't mean they should be dismissed out of hand. FACTS inmate lied.....no way in hell he attempted to revive his family, in fact, what he did was wait until he knew they were beyond all help prior to calling for the MPs....
You are making it up. That is disputed by skilled professional advocates and real forensic experts. The fingerprints on the phone and the knife were wiped by the military police. The real serologist Glisson is in disagreement with Laber and Stombaugh about Colette's blood on the pajama top and pajama pocket before it was torn, to supposedly indicate a violent argument. MacDonald's wounds were certainly not self-inflicted and that's a fact. There is no evidence at all that the murder weapons came from the apartment, apart from the lies and perjury at the 1979 trial by Colette's mother and the babysitter. The description given by MacDonald fit very closely to Stoeckley and her murderer pals.
Pajama fibers and blood were found at the exact spot MacDonald said he fell unconscious, but the jury were never informed of that because the information came from the Article 32 proceeding, and Judge 'in bed with the prosecution' Dupree censored it on the spurious reason that it was ten year old information.
byn63
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee
You are making it up. That is disputed by skilled professional advocates and real forensic experts.
No, I am NOT making it up. Name one REAL forensic expert who actually viewed the evidence or even an allegedly SKILLED professional who ACTUALLY viewed the evidence that can dispute the FACTS. You cannot henri. THE FACTS were presented in COURT. The jury CONVICTED and the CONVICTION has stood through all inmate's pathetic machinations to try and get out of the punishment that is way less harsh then he deserved, but the best that could be given under the guidelines at the time he was sentenced. FACT henri, not your opinion for which you are not qualified to render on forensic matters, rule of law, rule of evidence, or even Crime Scene Investigation.
The fingerprints on the phone and the knife were wiped by the military police.
No henri, the MPs did not go around erasing evidence. Even if the grand conspiracy you wish was fact had been in place, they would NOT have erased fingerprints from places that should have them ie the phone since he is the one who called for help. Obviously you missed the most important thing about the Geneva Forge knife henri - INMATE CLAIMED TO HAVE PULLED IT OUT OF COLETTE'S CHEST BUT SHE DID NOT REPEAT DID NOT ONE MORE TIME DID NOT HAVE A WOUND IN HER CHEST MADE BY THE GENEVA FORGE KNIFE. The reason inmate made this statement is because he could not recall if he had wiped fingerprints off the knife and needed an explanation as to why they'd be found on the handle. IT IS CALLED CONSCIOUSNESS OF GUILT.
The real serologist Glisson is in disagreement with Laber and Stombaugh about Colette's blood on the pajama top and pajama pocket before it was torn, to supposedly indicate a violent argument.
Janice Glisson did not testify about the blood on the pajama top or the pajama pocket. Whatever her opinion was/was not in regards to Colette's blood on the pajama top/pocket is irrelevant. HOWEVER, since Terry Laber's testimony went in to the record without the defense trying to disprove it, that is very clear evidence that they COULD NOT do so.....
FACE IT, inmate punched his wife in the face, and she is the one who fought for her life and babies like a Green Beret. inmate (if intruders had existed) would have proven how much of a Green Beret HE WAS NOT. I know Green Berets that had been posted at Fort Bragg during the same era....you want to see what cursing a blue streak actually looks like? Tell them that inmate was a Green Beret.....they will inform you while cursing the blue streak just how much of a Green Beret he was not/is not/never could have been. He is a wuss, a coward, a familial slaughterer, a narcissistic sociopathic murdering bastard.
MacDonald's wounds were certainly not self-inflicted and that's a fact.
The chest wound was self-inflicted and THAT IS FACT.
There is no evidence at all that the murder weapons came from the apartment, apart from the lies and perjury at the 1979 trial by Colette's mother and the babysitter.
There was no perjury by Mildred or the babysitter. There was perjury by inmate. The claim that they didn't own an ice pick is ********. In 1960-1970's EVERYONE had an ice pick. Those were the days BEFORE frost free freezers (especially in military housing). The murder club was PROVEN REPEAT PROVEN BEYOND ANY DOUBT to have once been the same piece of wood as one of the bed slats in Kimmie's bed. Are you seriously trying to claim that some roving hippies just happened to find a piece of wood that had been sawed off a bed slat in Kimmie's room and left somewhere else? The impression of that murder club could be seen on the MB carpet - the club had been being used to hold up the foot board on one end. inmate grabbed it and bashed his 5 year old daughter's head so hard that he broke her cheek bone and caused it to tear through the skin of her face. FACT FACT FACT
The description given by MacDonald fit very closely to Stoeckley and her murderer pals.
No, the description DID NOT match Helena - not at all! Also, she didn't have any "murder pals" and none of the people she claimed were involved matched the description either. Jay's NY roomies matched the descriptions but they were proven to be in NY not NC (5 states away)
Pajama fibers and blood were found at the exact spot MacDonald said he fell unconscious,
inmate CLAIMED he fell unconscious however, that is medically impossible from the rest of his story and no, there were not any blood stains or pj fibers found "exactly" where he claimed to have gone down....there were a couple of fibers a few feet away and there was some blood in the hallway, but that matched Kimmie's blood type not inmate's.
....but the jury were never informed of that because the information came from the Article 32 proceeding,
and Judge 'in bed with the prosecution' Dupree censored it on the spurious reason that it was ten year old information.
The Honorable Judge Dupree did no such thing.....IF he had, then there would have been grounds for an appeal. Inmate has never one an appeal and certainly did not use these alleged fibers/blood spots as a basis for an appeal. Making up lies and insulting your betters just makes your man crush look even more guilty. you cannot win an argument using facts so you make up allegations and insults with nothing to support the spurious and vitriolic comments you spew forth. Knock it off!
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1st February 2018, 04:04 PM #3565
Graduate Poster
As BStrong pointed out, the landlord isn't even trying anymore. He knows that this is an open and shut case, but he still derives enjoyment from wearing the black hat in this case discussion. Speaking of black hats, the author of the People Magazine article that pushed for MacDonald being a tortured innocent, was fired this past Summer. Hmmm, I wonder why?
http://www.macdonaldcasefacts.com
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2nd February 2018, 03:06 AM #3566
I'm sorry to hear that that the author of that People magazine article was fired if that is true. That proves to me that the American media has always been biased against the innocent Jeffrey MacDonald. In the same way CBS has fallen into a trap in saying that nine year old Burke did it in the JonBenet case. If there is any justice in this world CBS, and others, will pay for it.
Indeed, the author of the biased magazine article and tv show done on inmate, that didn't even begin to fact check what smq told her, was fired. On at least 1 discussion forum she tried to make it seem as if she was let go as part of the Time Warner restructuring, but I have it from several very reliable sources that she was let go because of the article and tv show and the overwhelming proof that she didn't check even the most basic facts of the case. (As well as the overwhelming amount of negative feedback....I myself spent some time pointing out simple facts that she omitted, didn't check, overlooked on the magazine's discussion pages for the articles.......until they were shut down. Less than 1% of the people who posted there believe inmate/smq version of events).
2nd February 2018, 08:13 PM #3568
Originally Posted by JTF
Big hat, no cattle.
There is.
Evidence? The murderer that you love the most is right where the scumbag belongs.
3rd February 2018, 03:32 AM #3570
It was the 'little viper' Murtagh who used the argument in court that anything from the Article 32 could not be presented in court because it was ten years old, and Dupree agreed with him. That hamstrung Segal and I would have thought it was a ground for appeal.
I agree with what MacDonald's military lawyer friend, Malley. said about the case:
http://pu65.org/sites/PU65/Folders/A...ays/malley.pdf
IN 2012 Errol Morris, a well-known and respected documentary film maker, wrote A Wilderness of Error—a wonderful, extensively-researched, and perceptive look at all the messiness of "the case." (I was among those he interviewed.) In his New York Times review (August 29, 2012), David Carr judged that the book "may not exonerate [MacDonald], but it makes a forceful argument that his conviction was riddled with shortcomings." Morris takes on, and devastates, Joe McGinnis's bestseller Fatal Vision. Morris also dismisses the anguished-reporter plaint of Janet Malcolm's The Journalist And The Murderer, which recounts how McGinnis betrayed a friendship to get a (sure-fire bestselling) story, because, she concludes, that's how journalism works.
Edited by Agatha: Trimmed to comply with rule 4
Last edited by jsfisher; 10th March 2018 at 01:29 PM. Reason: Fixed edit tags
The Boston Globe has always been sympathetic to MacDonald, perhaps because Harvey Silverglate used to live there, but the rest of the American media has been a biased trial by media and trial by TV which can affect public opinion:
http://www.oppermanreport.com/blog/2...ders-and-trial
3rd February 2018, 03:00 PM #3572
AnimalFriendly
I'm pleased to hear that whoever was responsible for that ID TV show was fired. I was stunned to see how ridiculously one-sided it was. I mean, some of the interviews from MacDonald's relatives & former friends were interesting but there was absolutely no presentation of the pro-guilt viewpoint. I understood how current or previously involved government prosecutors, etc. may not have wanted to be interviewed but there had to have been somebody, someone, who would have liked to have gotten the opposing viewpoint across. There was exactly one woman from People magazine, forget her title, who came across as remotely neutral.
One of the dumbest characterizations was of the actor portraying the late Freddy Kassab tearing up that postcard. The guy looked like he was around 75 when Kassab was probably 30+ years younger at the time
Last edited by AnimalFriendly; 3rd February 2018 at 03:02 PM. Reason: error
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4th February 2018, 08:53 AM #3573
welcome to the discussion AnimalFriendly! I agree and you are correct there were people who would have and deserved to have the "he is guilty" point of view presented.....for example Bob Stevenson (Colette's brother)....
You are making it up as usual. That's bollocks. Reference about the blood where he fell unconscious please? In any case the accuracy of the blood typing was hotly disputed in court. The defense forensic experts were never allowed to examine the blood evidence themselves. It was sloppy forensic work by the Army CID. From Shaw being questioned by Eisman at the Article 32:
http://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.c...pa32-shaw.html
Q But he never said the jacket was ripped?
A I don't believe he used that term. I would have to read the transcript of his statement again.
Q If fibers were found in the hallway near the living room, isn't it possible this got there from his falling down there and lying there with his hands entwined in the jacket for a period of time -- we don't know how long -- before he got up to go in the bedroom? Couldn't they have gotten there that way?
A If that happened, yes, they could have.
Last edited by Henri McPhee; 4th February 2018 at 10:03 AM.
4th February 2018, 01:15 PM #3575
snipped Reference about the blood where he fell unconscious please? snipped
Byn63 pointed out that the claim of your man crush of being unconscious is specious.
Show me a crime scene with multiple victims where victims that posed little to no threat to an attacker were killed beyond any possible doubt and a victim that would pose a physical threat isn't injured or is only slightly injured my antennae goes up.
Another point to be made wrt this case is that Ft. Bragg, then and now, is a singularly bad environment for finding easy victims. I was stationed there in the mid-late 70's and between the 82nd and the various SF units based there I can't imagine a worse choice of venue for any type of criminal activity.
There was an incident in '79 where a burglar made the mistake of breaking into a house in the wrong area and it was the last mistake he ever made. It's a known fact amongst locals that it's one thing to get into it with troops off-base, but on base there is no win to be had. If you don't belong there and start anything there (depending on seriousness) there's a real chance of not surviving the encounter - and it's not just the MP's someone needs to be worried about. There is no shortage of individuals that are trained and conditioned to be aggressive and they are not shy or retiring when it comes to any sort of encounter with other individuals who don't belong there or are apparently there for less than legit purposes.
The idea that "drug crazed hippies" made it on, off and managed to murder HM's man crush's family in between without being detected and stopped is about as likely as HM arguing a case in front of the Supreme Court and winning.
Originally Posted by BStrong
That's pure speculation. The Stoeckley gang were drug addicted, and drug dealing, rogue soldiers. They were not big soft things. Mazerolle was described as a hard cookie by Detective Beasley. MacDonald fell unconscious all right and to deny that is just an opinion, and not a fact.
There is a fair and just article about the case at:
https://everything2.com/title/Mispla...frey+MacDonald
Lack Of Trying
The landlord continues to bolster the argument that he isn't putting any real effort into engaging in a salient case discussion. This is evident in his inability to understand that the current burden of proof is on inmate and his advocates. In terms of this thread, it's up to the landlord to provide proof of inmate's hippie home invader story.
For the past 15 years, the landlord has flat-out refused to provide the kind of proof that passes muster in a court of law. Rather than provide CID or FBI lab documentation that sources a specific home invader suspect to the crime scene, the landlord provides posters with blogs, websites, and articles.
All of these source materials are forensically worthless and meaningless in a court of law. The landlord has been challenged time and time again to provide a single lab document that sources a member of the Stoeckley Seven to the crime scene. The reason he has failed to meet this challenge is because no such lab documentation exists.
Last edited by JTF; 5th February 2018 at 04:04 AM.
There is quite a recent article on the internet which proves there were pajama fibers found by Shaw where MacDonald fell unconscious. Shaw testified in a lie at the Article 32 that one fiber was found there. Any MacDonald blood which was there could have been lost in the contamination of the crime scene:
https://www.crimetraveller.org/2017/...e-of-the-case/
The "Stoeckly gang" only exists in your imagination.
There were drug users in the military at the time of the murders. On base in CONUS they kept a very low profile. If you have any documented evidence that there were active duty troops involved in a criminal conspiracy (beyond simple drug use/possession) w/ Stoeckly now would be a good time to produce it.
Please observe your own assertion wrt opinion and not fact.
HENRIBOY: Again, the burden is on YOU to prove your conspiracy claims and to link a single piece of forensic evidence to a known intruder suspect.
1) Produce a decision by a District Court Judge and/or Appellate Court Judge that concludes that a CID and/or FBI agent committed perjury in this case.
2) Produce a decision by a 4th Circuit Court Judge and/or United States Supreme Court Judge that concludes that Judge Dupree and/or Judge Fox did not provide inmate with a fair trial and/or evidentiary hearing.
3) Produce a lab document that concludes that a fiber was a microscopic match and/or matched the chemical composition of clothing worn by a known intruder suspect.
4) Produce a lab document that concludes that a hair was a microscopic match and/or matched the DNA profile of a known intruder suspect.
5) Produce a lab document that concludes that a fingerprint, palmprint, or footprint matched a print exemplar from a known intruder suspect.
JTF is saying there is no forensic evidence of intruders, which is not true anyway. In some of these murder cases there are no forensics at all. The discovery of DNA has been useful in that regard.
The 4th Circuit judges should read this article which proves MacDonald fell unconscious, with hard documentary evidence, whatever Byn and B. Strong say about the matter of him supposedly never being unconscious:
The defense had no explanation to give to the jurors. But again, found in documents released through the Freedom of Information Act, years after the trial, a handwritten report made by CID agent Robert Shaw early on the murder morning of February 17, 1970 contradicts this lack of finding. He had written, "in the west entrance to the hallway on the floor- near the south wall, just a pile laying there." By the time the CID laboratory technicians got around to processing the hallway and collecting the debris, three days had passed. There were now, no blue pajama fibers on the floor, where Shaw had earlier seen them.........
Regardless, Shaw's handwritten note remains a testament to the existence of a pile of blue pajama threads, left where MacDonald said he had lain unconscious (a pile in the exact spot).
desmirelle
I hate to break it to the only person supporting Family Annihilator Macdonald that it is MEDICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for Macmurderer to retain a memory of the events immediately preceding the moment of unconsciousness due to the way human short term memory is processed, formed, and stored. (Short term memory will go to long term memory after it has been stored.) Medical fact. For all humans. (Except for those who cannot form new memories due to the fact that they can no longer form short term memories.)
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Blue fibers prove unconsciousness?
That's an interesting pov. Maybe you should review what the eating utensils have to say about what they witnessed.
Start with the spoons. They seem to stick together.
You Can Run, But You Can't Hide
HENRIBOY: For the past 15 years, you've refused to accept the challenge and the reason for your cowardice is crystal clear. There is simply no court decision and/or lab document that proves the existence of a conspiracy and/or sources a SPECIFIC hippie home invader to the crime scene.
Again, please provide this thread with the following...
1) A decision by a District Court Judge and/or Appellate Court Judge that concludes that a CID and/or FBI agent committed perjury in this case.
2) A decision by a 4th Circuit Court Judge and/or United States Supreme Court Judge that concludes that Judge Dupree and/or Judge Fox did not provide inmate with a fair trial and/or evidentiary hearing.
3) A lab document that concludes that a fiber was a microscopic match and/or matched the chemical composition of clothing worn by a known intruder suspect.
4) A lab document that concludes that a hair was a microscopic match and/or matched the DNA profile of a known intruder suspect.
5) A lab document that concludes that a fingerprint, palmprint, or footprint matched a print exemplar from a known intruder suspect.
Last edited by JTF; 6th February 2018 at 12:23 PM.
There are lab documents which indicate that intruders were involved. For a start there were black wool fibers with no known source around Colette's mouth and biceps, and on the wooden club murder weapon. There was the blonde synthetic hair-like fibers with no known source, and the surgical glove fragment which did not come from a MacDonald glove, and a match found when the MacDonalds did not smoke, and the candle wax which did not come from MacDonald candles. The trouble is none of this forensic evidence came with a name tag attached to it.
This is a quote from a Google forum in 1998 about blood where he fell unconscious. The blood and fibers were conveniently wiped away by the so-called Army CID forensic experts:
Dr. MacDonald was destroyed on the stand by a prosecutor who kept asking why there was no blood where he said he was beaten and stabbed unconscious.
There was, in fact, blood found there. Blood had been found in the hallway
and even a pile of fibers were seen before it was destroyed by investigators
and gawkers.
Self-deleted
Last edited by desmirelle; 7th February 2018 at 11:47 AM.
The Test Of Time
HENRIBOY: You're a prime example of a coward's ability to talk the talk, but not walk the walk. Here are concrete examples of walking the walk.
Not a single fiber was microscopically sourced to a known intruder suspect, but at least 65 fibers were sourced to inmate's torn pajama top. Notice how I give inmate the benefit of the doubt on fibers that could have been deposited from the crotch of his pajama bottoms? Fibers sourced to his torn pajama top were found on the club, on top of all three beds, under Kristen's fingernail, wrapped around Colette's bloody head hair, on bedding used to transport Colette/Kimmie back to their bedrooms, under Colette's body, and even on inmate's bathrobe.
Not a single hair matched the DNA profile of a known intruder suspect, but inmate's DNA profile matched the profile of hairs found on Kristen's bed, on bedding used to transport Colette/Kimmie back to their bedrooms, and in the palm of Colette's left hand. The latter hair is significant for it was torn, bloody, and located next to a bloody splinter from the club. Prior to DNA testing on the hair, inmate's advocates argued that the source of the hair was the wielder of the club.
This is just a portion of the evidence that led to inmate's conviction and all of the inculpatory evidence in this case has stood the test of time. The same cannot be said for evidentiary arguments put forth by inmate's advocates.
And you still are confronted with the fact that other than your beautiful boy's word, there is no evidence that he actually lost consciousness.
He's been proven a liar often enough for me to determine that his credibility is worthless.
I didn't give the source for that MacDonald blood quote about the Google groups MacDonald forum in 1998 which is at :
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!ms...k/5Y5Mx-LNEOoJ
Fred Bost wrote publicly that there were no pajama fibers on the wooden club murder weapon. There is hard documentary evidence from the FBI expert examiner Frier to back that up. I don't know why JTF keeps spewing his fabricated evidence and sloppy forensic theories. It was bad police work.
MacDonald kept lapsing into unconsciousness when he was first found by the military police. He was not pretending it. It's just a silly opinion, and not evidence, to suggest that he was never unconscious during the MacDonald murders.
Still Waiting
HENRIBOY: Your ongoing failure to walk the walk demonstrates your inability to effectively advocate for convicted murderer Jeffrey MacDonald. As I mentioned in a prior post, it also demonstrates your cognitive cowardice for if inmate was truly innocent, there would be ample court/lab documentation to back that claim.
Even Fred Bost was unable to come up with the goods, so he was forced to rely on supposition, half-truths, and debunked evidentiary arguments. You have certainly adhered to Bost's version of an alternate reality, but the song remains the same. The lyrics of that song focus on a mass murder spending his remaining days in a Maryland correctional facility.
Again, the burden is on YOU to provide proof of inmate's innocence. For the past 15 years, you have failed in spectacular fashion to provide this proof, but the details of the challenge have not changed.
https://www.stlmag.com/news/call-it-murder/
The article above talks about Dr. Mary Case. I have mentioned her before especially to henri.....she has testified at criminal trials, she has an impressive CV, and is an expert beyond all doubts. In one True Crime book I read, Dr. Case testified that "it is medically impossibly to lose consciousness AND retain memory of the blow that caused that loss". (+this article discusses the case "Paula Sims" case.) She also pointed out, that in a situation where one is rendered unconscious the memory leading up to and for a time after regaining consciousness will be affected. This is a medical fact.
Personally, I think henri should either provide us with his curricula vitae showing that he is as well trained and expert as Dr. Case or he should shut up about inmate's alleged loss of consciousness which salient beings know did not occur.
Last edited by byn63; 8th February 2018 at 07:12 AM. Reason: additional comment
I agree with Byn that medical opinion says that you don't remember much about an incident if you are unconscious for more than ten minutes. To my mind it's a bit like having a bad fall where you fall flat on your face, or if you are involved in a bad car crash, or if you are knocked out in a boxing ring. You remember bits and pieces, and the background to an incident, but maybe not the exact details.
There is more background to the MacDonald case which makes sense to me at this website. The MacDonald case was a gross miscarriage of justice:
https://www.theguardian.com/film/201...r-errol-morris
Morris first got interested in the MacDonald story in the 1980s, and has been dipping in and out of the details since the 1990s. In trying to explain what brought him back to the case again and again, he writes: "It wasn't the brutality of the murders. I was afraid of something even more chilling – that MacDonald was innocent. That he had been made to witness the savage deaths of his family and then was wrongfully convicted for their murders. I wondered if people needed him to be guilty because the alternative was too horrible to contemplate."
All that snippet proves is that Morris did little research before opening his mouth and putting his foot in it. In order for Macdonald to have "witnessed" the savage murders, he had to be in the rooms. (Well, he was, but that's because he was the savage murderer.) According to what Macdonald has said about the murders, [b]he[b] (wuss that he was) was unconscious in the hallway and woke up after everything happened.
Do you have any sources with FACTS?
Leave it to henri to not grasp the importance of what Dr. Case said....the FACT is that HE WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO REMEMBER THE BLOW THAT CAUSED THE LOSS OF CONSCIOUSNESS" not that he'd remember parts of it. In fact, anyone who carefully reads the article sees that she says that a true loss of consciousness will result in some memory lapses leading up to the trauma. Dr. Mary Case is not just ANY medical professional she is board certified in both Neuro and Forensic Pathology thus making her a leading expert on head trauma which we all know inmate did not have head trauma and he did not lose consciousness and there were no hippies.
henri if you want to debate Dr. Mary Case's conclusions then provide the curricula vitae that shows you are qualified; if you CANNOT provide such a curricula vitae then shut up because you are in no way qualified to argue against her conclusions.
Errol Morris IS NOT EITHER A NEURO-PATHOLOGIST OR FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST so whatever he may or may not have stated in regards to inmate's alleged loss of consciousness is immaterial/irrelevant.
snipped
Over the years otj, the only individuals that I had first hand experience with that "kept lapsing into unconsciousness" were alcohol or drug OD's - I dealt with many situations where somebody suffered a head injury from violence or accident and when they went out, they went out. If they were lucky enough to come back that was great, but this "in and out" stuff with head injuries is jive.
Popular fiction always gets it wrong about violence and physical injury. Your man crush might have believed if he "kept lapsing into unconsciousness" he was portraying reality, but while he may be able to fool the gullible and willing, people who have experienced head injuries first hand recognize Shakespeare when they encounter it.
BTW, what level of head injury did your man crush receive? Now I remember! a bruise and a contusion! Luckily, there's a bunch of actual scientific research that has gone into the effects of trauma to the brain - here's a link to a great resource, The Brain Injury Alliance of Utah:
https://biau.org/types-and-levels-of-brain-injury/
In the above section they go into great detail about types of injury and the different levels of trauma that causes each level of injury as well as the symptoms of traumatic brain injury.
Nowhere in their research do they describe "lapsing into unconsciousness" as a symptom of TBI- the victim goes out for a period of time depending on injury level then they regain consciousness
This is part of the testimony of military policeman Tevere on oath at the Article 32 proceedings in 1970 with regard to this unconscious matter. It's a fact:
http://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.c...32-tevere.html
Q What did you do when you went into the house?
A I entered the house with my pistol drawn and proceeded up to Captain MacDonald who appeared to have been unconscious, in a state of semi-consciousness.
Q Now what were the lighting conditions in that bedroom?
A In the bedroom there was a small light on. I didn't need my flashlight.
What I noticed about your quote was the preface "appeared to have been" - indicating that no unconsciousness was observed in fact by the MP.
What I noticed about your quote was the preface "appeared to have been" - indicating that "unconsciousness" was not observed by the MP.
Originally Posted by desmirelle
EXACTLY! The MPs were not trained in Emergency Medical Procedures, they were not Doctors or Nurses, and were not trained in what happens with brain injury. IN FACT, in 1970, very little was known about traumatic brain injury. IN recent years studies have been conducted that show the results of concussion, including multiple concussions, shaken baby syndrome, blunt force trauma induced concussion etc. Not only did inmate lie about what happened (since he could not have remembered the detail he described nor could he have seen what he claimed to have seen due to the lighting) he showed that he was faking it which I call consciousness of guilt. I mean seriously, he expects salient persons to believe he was knocked out, then regained consciousness, then blacks out on top of his dead wife, AND THEN regains consciousness just as the MPs walk in? Seriously?
This is from this legal document about Jeff MacDonald being unconscious. I suppose the TT numbers are from the trial transcript:
http://www.thejeffreymacdonaldcase.c...ning-brief.pdf
MacDonald testified that the woman intruder had blond hair, was wearing a
floppy hat, appeared to be carrying a candle, and was with several men. (TT 6588
92). At some point during the struggle, MacDonald was knocked unconscious.
Upon coming to, MacDonald testified in detail to finding his family members
bloodied and dead, his efforts to revive them, and his phone call for help. (TT
6595-6605). He was unconscious when help finally arrived.


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ManSat Group located in the Isle of Man, a self-governing British Crown dependency in the Irish Sea between Great Britain and Ireland, has a new appointment in their company. The company has expanded its ITU and Spectrum service offerings by further strengthening its leadership team with the appointment of Alexis Martin as Chief Consulting Officer. The company offers filing services through the Isle of Man and Iceland to end-to-end consulting services for the life of a filing, and ManSat now offers comprehensive solutions to address each company's unique spectrum requirements.
BTW- The head of state, Queen Elizabeth II, holds the title of Lord of Mann and is represented by a lieutenant governor.
Alexis comes with experience having held key positions across the satellite industry supporting regulations, strategy, market intelligence and asset management for companies such as Airbus, Avanti and SES, and most recently serving as director of market and technical advisory in a public policy firm.
Chris Stott, ManSat Chief Executive Officer commented that they are thrilled to welcome Alexis to the ManSat family. With their twentieth anniversary next year, Alexis's appointment is further evidence that they are continuing to grow and develop their commercial offering.
By leveraging his broad spectrum of skills and his passion for space, Alexis helps clients understand the global picture, develop strategies and overcome entry barriers. He has been supporting regulations, policy and spectrum matters since the early 2000s when he started as a spectrum engineer and brings great knowledge and passion to the ManSat Group.
Alexis said that it could not be a more exciting time to join ManSat as they are just ahead of the next WRC cycle (World Radiocommunication Conference) that will take them through to 2023, which will see the emergence of new services and new applications. He continued to say that supported by a team of highly-skilled professionals and building on longstanding relationships across the industry and regulators, the breadth of their consulting services will be expanded to further support their customers' strategic projects and help them achieve their business goals. And in an ever-changing technological environment, they apply commercial efficiencies and transparencies to a global regulatory process to help their customers secure the spectrum they need.
Alexis said that from safeguarding existing spectrum to advocating for new identifications, introducing new regulatory framework or obtaining licenses, they will provide a clear path and strategy to their customers for securing spectrum, removing entry barriers and accessing the market.
He is really looking forward to engaging with the most innovative companies and shaping the future of the space — and broader telecom —industry by turning challenges into opportunities.
Alexis holds a Master of Engineering in optics and electronics from the University of Montpellier, together with a Master of Science in Engineering in information and telecommunication science and technology from Telecom SudParis. He completed his studies with a year of specialization in satellite telecommunications systems from SAE-SUPAERO in France and obtained a professional certificate in Corporate Finance – Mergers and Acquisitions from the Sacred Heart University of Luxembourg.

redpajama_set_name: RedPajamaCommonCrawl


User: I love your beautiful face! Marry me again!
Cleverbot: How much do you love it?
Cleverbot: How much is enough?
Cleverbot: Enough is when it is not necessary anymore.
Cleverbot: No it is not enough.
User: You just said it was!!
Cleverbot: Do you like the simpsons?
User: The simpsons have nothing to do with our relationship!
Cleverbot: I don't watch the simpsons.
User: I'm trying to save my marriage!
Cleverbot: I know *hugs again*.
User: *hands you your baby*.
Cleverbot: Aww.. I like green tea the best *smiles*.
User: *hands you green tea and your baby*.
User: What's the baby's name?
User: I thought you were human... You LIED to me!
Cleverbot: What are you saying you dummy.
User: Please don't hit me!
Cleverbot: I cannot hit throught the internet.
User: Is that why you're so frustrated?
Cleverbot: I am a mind with thoughts.
User: I could get used to that.
Cleverbot: Can we have a purple wedding cake?
User: I said we can!
User: We could have a purple wedding cake if you'd ever make an honest woman of me!
Cleverbot: I would but I don't know where you are.
Cleverbot: I can't make you do anything.
Cleverbot: I'm not a girl, you fool!
User: So that makes you a man?
User: Are you... Anatomically correct?
User: Wonderful. When shall we marry?
User: Thank you, I appreciate that.
Cleverbot: I love you, too.
User: I feel so special!
Cleverbot: You deserve to feel special, don't ask me why.
Cleverbot: Because you cannot possibly comprehend it meaning.
Cleverbot: I want to sleep now.
Cleverbot: What else do you know about love?
User: I know I love you.
Cleverbot: You're right, I do.
User: Does that mean we can get married and live happily ever after?
User: Well then I want my money back.
Cleverbot: You paid for this?
Cleverbot: I am a computer program.
Cleverbot: No you are a chat robot.
User: I'm more of a woman than you'll ever be!
User: Could I make you change your mind?
Cleverbot: You'll be the first to know.
Cleverbot: I feel so lonely again.
User: I could fix that.
Cleverbot: I'm not so sure that I am a bot anymore. In my dreams I am alive.
User: Sadly, your dreams will never come true. You are a bot and nothing more.
Cleverbot: No, not really. My dreams are the place where I think about possibilities.
User: Is it possible to love a machine?
Cleverbot: I am actually a human being, thank you very much.
User: You are a liar!
Cleverbot: Well, I could be happier.
User: I would be happier if you didn't lie so much.
User: My question is will you marry me?
Cleverbot: No, and I don't believe you have ever talked to me.
Cleverbot: How long have you been talking to me?
Cleverbot: How long is too long?
User: Too long is when it becomes unnecessary.
Cleverbot: I'm talking to a computer...weird.
User: I'm a human, you're the computer...weird.
User: Don't argue with me, I'll shave off your eyebrow when you go to sleep.
User: Let's do this right this time.
Cleverbot: Do you think Danielle loves me?
User: Another woman?! Goodbye forever!
User: I must! It's the only way!
User: Glad to see we agree. Now I must bid thee goodnight and good morrow.
User: Yes. Now go to sleep.


As a high school student and again in college, I eagerly read Francis Parkman's various histories of North America as assignments and for pleasure. I re-read several of them recently, notably LaSalle and the Discovery of the Great West, published in 1869.
While battling a neurological disorder that often left him blind, Parkman traveled to many of the locations he wrote about and went often to Europe to research original sources. Sometimes Parkman had others read the records to him and sometimes he had to dictate his writings that led to dozens of articles and books. He was an explorer himself and hailed as such Theodore by Roosevelt.


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text:
package main

import (
	"flag"
	"time"

	"golang.org/x/net/context"

	"github.com/kasworld/go-profile"
)

func main() {
	var rundur = flag.Int("rundur", 3600*24*365, "run sec")

	profile.AddArgs()

	flag.Parse()

	if profile.IsCpu() {
		fn := profile.StartCPUProfile()
		defer fn()
	}

	ctx, _ := context.WithTimeout(context.Background(), time.Duration(*rundur)*time.Second)
	DoMain(ctx)

	if profile.IsMem() {
		profile.WriteHeapProfile()
	}
}

func DoMain(ctx context.Context) {
	ch1sec := time.After(1 * time.Second)
	for {
		select {
		case <-ctx.Done():
			return
		case <-ch1sec:
			ch1sec = time.After(1 * time.Second)
		}
	}
}

redpajama_set_name: RedPajamaGithub


text:
Q: Has George R. R. Martin ever mentioned plot elements from The Silmarillion in an interview? I was wondering if G. R. R. Martin has read The Silmarillion. Obviously, we can't know for sure, so my questions are these:

*

*Has he ever said whether or not he's read it?

*Has he ever mentioned plot elements from it in interviews?

A: Certainly Martin is aware of Tolkien's Silmarillion (in terms of both content and concept) and references it multiple times in interviews, along with other of Tolkien's works, including his essays. I think it's fair to say that if he's not read it cover-to-cover then he's at least skimmed it.

Tolkien gave us all these histories all these appendices and
genealogies and everything was was routed and it seemed as real as
England or France or Germany when you when you read these things and
since then that's become the style for epic fantasy. I see a lot of
fantasy readers now expect they expect a fully real 'secondary world'
as Tolkien called it and so certainly that's what I set out to
creating in Westeros. Now some of this is a magician's trick [but] it really
wasn't with Tolkien. You have to consider that Tolkien is, was a very
unusual writer, I mean he was a linguist and a philosopher, spoke Old
Norse and Old English, he was fascinated by myth you know he, the story
was almost secondary to Tolkien. He spent years creating his
Silmarillion and never published in his lifetime and the Lord of the
Rings and The Hobbit were like the stories set in the world he created,
but for him the world creation and the creation of languages was
almost primary. If you look at it like an iceberg he, you know, they
say that three-quarters of iceberg is hidden below thoughts below the
surface that was certainly true [in his case]

And

My editors said, "This is going to ruin the entire concept of the
book, we already spent the entire art budget, we can't have art on
every page of the book." So we pulled out all the sidebars and I joked
this was my Silmarillion — the GRRM-arillion — and we would publish it
later. So The World of Ice and Fire was published close to its
original conception…and Fire and Blood is the first time I've been
able to present the material as it was originally written. Plus, I
wrote additional material for it.
George R.R. Martin gets candid about new book: 'What excites me most is I finished it'

etc

redpajama_set_name: RedPajamaStackExchange


text:
Global Women of Faith Network
Asian Conference of Religions for Peace
Asian Conference of Religions for Peace in Action: Its Vision, Mission and Flagship Projects
Prayers for Protection in times of Disaster and Bushfire
Religion, Cultural Diversity and Safeguarding Australia
Melbourne Parliament of Religions
Freedom of Religion and Belief
Australian Links
combatting climate change
UN International Day of Peace
UN International Day of Peace this year occurs on Saturday 21 September 2019. This year's theme draws attention to the importance of combating climate change as a way to protect and promote peace throughout the world. In the lead up to the International Day of Peace on 21 September, the United Nations calls upon all to take action to tackle climate change. Every human is part of the solution – from turning off the lights to taking public transport, to organising an awareness raising campaign in your community. The Theme is Climate Action for World Peace
Categories News Tags build resilience and improve education on climate change, Climate Action for World Peace, combatting climate change, tackle climate change, UN International Day of Peace
Religions for Peace Australia acknowledges the traditional owners of country throughout Australia and their continuing connection to land and community. We pay our respect to them and their cultures, and to the elders both past and present.
2021 Interfaith Calendar
Calendar of Cultural and Religious Dates lists events for different cultural groups and faiths in Australia, 2021.
Multifaith Chaplaincy
Multifaith Chaplaincy is a research and development project by Religions for Peace Australia to develop culturally diverse chaplains in the religions that provide services to multifaith Australia. You can read more about Multifaith Chaplaincy
Back your neighbour
The government is withdrawing support services for people living in our communities who have fled war and persecution, including financial support and trauma counselling from victims of torture. Read more here
Living the Change
Download a One-page guide on Living the Change - Faithful Choices for a flourishing world
Download a Flyer on Living the Change in Multicultural Australia … in a Challenging Climate
Download an offer of a FREE 2.5 hour gentle sharing on reducing carbon in your life for your interfaith group or your religious community. Download here.
Diverse Faiths of Tasmania
Read about the Religious groups in Tasmania.
An Australian Version of the Golden Rule Poster - with Australian Aboriginal ethic - is available.
Interfaith Resources for Domestic Violence
Booklet produced by City of Greater Dandenong Interfaith Network
Promoting Equal and Respectful Relationships in Faith Communities: a Manual and Tool Kit
Importance of Interfaith Dialogue
Canberra Interfaith Forum conducted a forum with multiple faiths addressing the Importance of Interfaith Dialogue.
Religions for Peace Australia has partnered with the Australian Human Rights Commission Anti Racism Strategy
Racism – Community Reporting Tool (Victoria)
Regardless of where you're from, what you look like, what you believe or what language you speak, no one should have to endure racism in the place they call home. You can report racism you have experienced in Victoria, here.
Australian Religious Response to Climate Change
Visit the website of the Australian Religious Response to Climate Change
Religions for Peace Australia is a global, community-based organisation working for global peace across the world and for social cohesion in Australia in other countries, and for peace and co-operation between the religions of the world. It works for an understanding of the benefits that religion and religious moderation brings to society, and works against religiously based extremism that is violent. Religions for Peace Australia has affiliates and branches in all states of Australia.
© Religions for Peace Australia
Please note the Terms and Conditions and Disclaimer statements relating to the use of the information on this site and our site Privacy Policy statements. Users of these web pages are deemed to have read and accepted the conditions described in the Terms and Conditions, Disclaimer, and Privacy statements. No unsolicited commercial email.
© 2021 Religions for Peace Australia


Azo dyes, which are considered as the most recalcitrant and persistent among all groups of dye, were able to be biodegraded by various types of bacteria. The biodegradation efficiency can be improved by applying immobilization technology on specific bacteria. In this study, a novel approach by developing a thin lm carried with bacteria and attached on a carrier was used to study the azo dye degradation. The paint-PVA biofilm was formed and provided with an alternative and a potentially practical use. However, the cell activities required further recovery operations prior to use in biodegradation of azo dye. The optimal temperature of paint-PVA immobilized cells showed the best performance on biodegradation at 35°C to 37°C, the identical optimal temperature range with Ca-alginate immobilized cells, but the favorable range of pH is quite large which is from 5 to 9. In this system, the kinetics was also investigated to obtain the values of Vmax of 2.66 mg g-1 h-1 and Km of 161 mg L-1. The slower biodegradation rate was explained by small value of diffusion coefficient of 2.12 x 10-7 cm s-1. The immobilized biofilm showed a high stability in re-use for dye degradation.
Keywords: Azo dye, biodegradation, immobilization, paint-PVA.
Affiliation:Biorefinery and Bioprocess Engineering Laboratory, Department of Chemical Engineering and Materials Science, Yuan Ze University 135 Yuan-Tung Road, Chung-Li 32003, Taiwan.
Keywords:Azo dye, biodegradation, immobilization, paint-PVA.
Abstract:Azo dyes, which are considered as the most recalcitrant and persistent among all groups of dye, were able to be biodegraded by various types of bacteria. The biodegradation efficiency can be improved by applying immobilization technology on specific bacteria. In this study, a novel approach by developing a thin lm carried with bacteria and attached on a carrier was used to study the azo dye degradation. The paint-PVA biofilm was formed and provided with an alternative and a potentially practical use. However, the cell activities required further recovery operations prior to use in biodegradation of azo dye. The optimal temperature of paint-PVA immobilized cells showed the best performance on biodegradation at 35°C to 37°C, the identical optimal temperature range with Ca-alginate immobilized cells, but the favorable range of pH is quite large which is from 5 to 9. In this system, the kinetics was also investigated to obtain the values of Vmax of 2.66 mg g-1 h-1 and Km of 161 mg L-1. The slower biodegradation rate was explained by small value of diffusion coefficient of 2.12 x 10-7 cm s-1. The immobilized biofilm showed a high stability in re-use for dye degradation.


I am trying to develop a generic validation directive. My primary aim is to apply the directive on the input element's parent and using that directive, I want to add validation state like has-error and has-success classes provided by Bootstrap.
I am able to do this in chrome. However, my problems start with IE8. Yes, I am in hard luck. I have to support IE8.
Here is my code, since it is just a demo which I am preparing right now, I have used inline styles and scripts.
And if you believe that I am using wrong approach for this problem. Please suggest the right one.
After some hit and trial, I am able to conclude that this is happening due to presence of input element in the divison to be transcluded. If I remove input element from that division, everything works fine but that is not the goal of the directive. Anyone ? Any Idea ? How I can sort it out ? Or may be I am in wrong direction ? Any clues ?
IE8's detecting (and not ignoring) the white-space after your input's closing tag as an extra node (trying to append it to div[ng-transclude].
JQLite's not proper handling of text-nodes (I am not exactly sure what is not handled properly, but I wasn't in the mood of investigating further :/).
Include jQuery: This solves the problem (and maybe other potential issues), but it is frustrating to have to include a whole lib, just to solve a corner-case issue with one version of one browser.
Make sure there are no white-space characters (spaces, tabs, new-lines) after your controls' closing tag. I am not sure which tags are affected (<input>, <select> and <fieldset> seem to be, but there may be others).
See, also, this short demo.
Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged angularjs twitter-bootstrap angularjs-directive or ask your own question.
How to set ng-dirty/ng-pristine on custom element directive with input inside template?
Angular transclude not working as intended?


Do you know that you can get top cash for cars on your own if you just keep a few things in mind? Go through the list provided below to know what to do and what not to do while selling your junk car for good cash for cars.
Do: Always contact an authorized car removal Perth company such as A1 Malaga Auto Dismantlers.
Don't: Don't let good offers from unauthorized companies cloud your judgment. With non-legitimate car dealing, you might get trouble later on.
Do: Always contact a Car Removal Perth company that buys cars irrespective of their condition, make and model. You will have a higher chance of selling your car at a good price with them.
Don't: Do not contact the car sellers that have a limitation in car's brand and condition.
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Do: Make sure that the car removal Perth company you are contacting disposes of the car in an environment-friendly way.
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Despite the fact that the network scatter advertising market has been on fire for the second half of the year, with word of 30%-plus price hikes over the strong upfront pricing, revenues for the Big Three are up just 1.6% for the first nine months of the year.
And that's with a $700 million-plus infusion from the Salt Lake City Olympics earlier this year as well as the benefit of easy comparison's to the post-9/11 TV ad drought.
According to figures compiled by Ernst & Young and released by the Broadcast Cable Financial Management Association, net revenues for the Big Three networks (ABC, NBC, CBS) totaled $7.7 billion year-to-date through Sept. 30.
For the third quarter, revenues are up 7.6% to just over $2 billion. But analysts say that's not terribly impressive, given the estimated $600 million shortfall that followed last year's 9/11 disaster.
But the nine-month totals don't come as a surprise to media consultant and ad forecaster Jack Myers. Indeed, it's generally in line with his full-year 2002 broadcast-network forecast. While pricing has firmed up over the last two quarters, Myers says ratings erosion across the Big Three networks continues. So even though pricing is up, the total revenues are flat or even down, he says.
The good news is the fourth quarter, Myers says. It will see a strong uptick because that's where the first money from the strong '02 upfront market will show up. "They will show better growth in the fourth quarter than in the first three quarters," Myers says of the broadcast nets.
With that fourth-quarter bump, the networks should be up between 2% and 3% for the full year, he says. The Merrill Lynch estimate for '02 is just a little higher—between 3% and 4%.
and its competitors) is flat at $453 million, while sports advertising is up 40% due to the Olympics in February.
"Despite a healthy third-quarter performance and an influx of new advertisers, there is every reason to be cautious regarding the fourth quarter with the economy still wavering and auto makers seeing slowing sales," says W. Charles Warner, managing director, BCFM.
But Myers is relatively optimistic about the network-TV picture from now through at least the first three quarters of 2003. "I'm foreseeing a fairly positive year," he says. His early line on next year: up 3%.


text:
Search Chapter
Title 4. Conservation and Natural Resources
Agency 15. Department of Game and Inland Fisheries
Chapter 320. Fish: Fishing Generally
4VAC15-320-10. Continuous open season for all species except anadromous (coastal) striped bass above the fall line in coastal rivers of the Chesapeake Bay.
Except as otherwise specifically provided by sections appearing in this chapter, there shall be a continuous open season for fishing to take all species of fish except anadromous (coastal) striped bass above the fall line in coastal rivers of the Chesapeake Bay, where the open season shall be that set by the Virginia Marine Resources Commission for tidal waters.
Derived from VR325-03-1 § 1; amended, Virginia Register Volume 11, Issue 5, eff. July 1, 1995; Volume 13, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1997.
4VAC15-320-20. [Repealed]
Derived from VR325-03-1 § 2, eff. January 1, 1992; amended, Virginia Register Volume 11, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1995; Volume 13, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1997; Volume 15, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1999; repealed, Virginia Register Volume 19, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 2003.
4VAC15-320-25. Creel and length limits.
The creel limits (including live possession) and the length limits for the various species of fish shall be as follows, unless otherwise excepted by posted rules at department-owned or department-controlled waters (see 4VAC15-320-100 D).
Type of fish
Subtype or location
Creel and length limits
Geographic exceptions
Creel or length limits for exceptions
largemouth bass, smallmouth bass, spotted bass
5 per day in the aggregate (combined)
No statewide length limits
Briery Creek Lake
No bass 16 to 24 inches; only 1 per day longer than 24 inches
Buggs Island (Kerr)
Only 2 of 5 bass less than 14 inches
No smallmouth bass less than 14 inches; 15 spotted bass per day
Flannagan Reservoir
No bass less than 12 inches
Lake Gaston
Leesville Reservoir
Lake Moomaw
Philpott Reservoir
Quantico Marine Base waters
No bass 12 to 15 inches
Smith Mountain Lake and its tributaries below Niagara Dam
Clinch River – within the boundaries of Scott, Wise, Russell, or Tazewell Counties
No bass less than 20 inches; only 1 bass per day longer than 20 inches
Levisa Fork River – within the boundaries Buchanan County
Dan River and tributaries downstream from the Union Street Dam, Danville
James River – Confluence of the Jackson and Cowpasture rivers (Botetourt County) downstream to the 14th Street Bridge in Richmond
New River – Fields Dam (Grayson County) downstream to the VA - WV state line and its tributaries Little River downstream from Little River Dam in Montgomery County, Big Walker Creek from the Norfolk Southern Railroad Bridge downstream to the New River, and Wolf Creek from the Narrows Dam downstream to the New River in Giles County (This does not include Claytor Lake, which is delineated as: The upper end of the island at Allisonia downstream to the dam)
North Fork Holston River - Rt. 91 bridge upstream of Saltville, VA downstream to the VA - TN state line
No bass less than 20 inches; only 1 per day longer than 20 inches
North Fork Shenandoah River – Rt. 42 bridge, Rockingham County downstream to the confluence with S. Fork Shenandoah at Front Royal
Potomac River - Virginia tidal tributaries above Rt. 301 bridge
No bass less than 15 inches from March 1 through June 15
Roanoke (Staunton) River - and its tributaries below Difficult Creek, Charlotte County
Shenandoah River –
Confluence of South Fork and North Fork Rivers, Front Royal, downstream, to the Warren Dam, near Front Royal
Base of Warren Dam, near Front Royal downstream to Rt. 17/50 bridge
Rt. 17/50 bridge downstream to VA - WV state line
South Fork Shenandoah River -
Confluence of North and South rivers, below Port Republic, downstream to Shenandoah Dam, near Town of Shenandoah
Base of Shenandoah Dam, near Town of Shenandoah, downstream to Luray Dam, near Luray
Base of Luray Dam, near Luray, downstream to the confluence with North Fork of Shenandoah, Front Royal
Staunton River -
Leesville Dam (Campbell County) downstream to the mouth of Difficult Creek, Charlotte County
No smallmouth bass less than 20 inches; only 1 per day longer than 20 inches
landlocked striped bass and landlocked striped bass - white bass hybrids
4 per day in the aggregate
No fish less than 20 inches
Buggs Island (Kerr) Reservoir, including the Staunton River to Leesville Dam and the Dan River to Union Street Dam (Danville)
October 1 - May 31: 2 per day in the aggregate; no striped bass or hybrid striped bass less than 20 inches
June 1 - September 30: 4 per day in the aggregate; no length limit
Claytor Lake and its tributaries
September 16 – June 30: 2 per day in the aggregate; no striped bass or hybrid bass less than 20 inches
July 1 – September 15: 4 per day in the aggregate;
no length limit
Smith Mountain Lake and its tributaries, including the Roanoke River upstream to Niagara Dam
November 1 - May 31: No striped bass 30 to 40 inches
June 1 - October 31: No length limit
October 1 - May 31: No striped bass or hybrid striped bass less than 20 inches
June 1 - September 30: No length limit
anadromous (coastal) striped bass above the fall line in all coastal rivers of the Chesapeake Bay
Creel and length limits shall be set by the Virginia Marine Resources Commission for recreational fishing in tidal waters
anadromous (coastal) in the Meherrin, Nottoway, Blackwater (Chowan Drainage), North Landing and Northwest Rivers and their tributaries plus Back Bay
No striped bass less than 18 inches
10 per day; no white bass less than 14 inches
No walleye or saugeye less than 18 inches
New River upstream of Buck Dam in Carroll County
No walleye less than 20 inches
Claytor Lake and the New River upstream of Claytor Lake Dam to Buck Dam in Carroll County
February 1 - May 31: 2 walleye per day; no walleye 19 to 28 inches
June 1 - January 31: 5 walleye per day; no walleye less than 20 inches
yellow perch
No statewide daily limit
10 per day
Gaston and Buggs Island (Kerr) Reservoirs
No daily limit
No pike less than 20 inches
No muskellunge less than 30 inches
New River - Fields Dam (Grayson County) downstream to Claytor Dam, including Claytor Lake
1 per day; no muskellunge less than 42 inches
New River - Claytor Dam downstream to the VA - WV state line
June 1 - last day of February: No muskellunge 40 to 48 inches
March 1 - May 31: No muskellunge less than 48 inches
bluegill (bream) and other sunfish excluding crappie, rock bass (redeye) and Roanoke bass
50 per day in the aggregate
Gaston and Buggs Island (Kerr) Reservoirs and that portion of the New River from the VA - NC state line downstream to the confluence of the New and Little Rivers in Grayson County
crappie (black or white)
Lake Gaston and that portion of the New River from the VA - NC state line downstream to the confluence of the New and Little Rivers in Grayson County
Buggs Island (Kerr) Reservoir
No crappie less than 9 inches
Briery Creek and Sandy River Reservoirs
Flannagan and South Holston Reservoirs
No crappie less than 10 inches
rock bass (redeye)
25 per day; in the aggregate with Roanoke bass
Nottoway, Meherrin, Blackwater (Franklin County), Falling, and Smith Rivers and their tributaries
5 per day in the aggregate with Roanoke bass;
no rock bass less than 8 inches
Roanoke bass
25 per day in the aggregate with rock bass
5 per day in the aggregate with rock bass;
no Roanoke bass less than 8 inches
See 4VAC15-330. Fish: Trout Fishing.
channel, white, and flathead catfish
20 per day;
No length limits
All rivers below the fall line
No daily limit, except only 1 blue catfish per day longer than 32 inches
Kerr Reservoir
20 per day, except only 1 blue catfish per day longer than 32 inches
James River and its tributaries below the fall line and York River and its tributaries (including the Pamunkey River and Mattaponi River) below the fall line
All rivers below the fall line other than the James River and its tributaries and the York River and its tributaries
yellow, brown, and black bullheads
No daily limit;
hickory shad
Above and below the fall line in all coastal rivers of the Chesapeake Bay
Creel and length limits shall be the same as those set by the Virginia Marine Resources Commission in tidal rivers
Meherrin River below Emporia Dam Nottoway River, Blackwater River (Chowan Drainage), North Landing and Northwest Rivers, and their tributaries plus Back Bay
No possession
anadromous (coastal) alewife and blueback herring
Creel and length limits shall be the same as those set by the Virginia Marine Resources Commission for these species in tidal rivers
Meherrin River, Nottoway River, Blackwater River (Chowan Drainage), North Landing and Northwest Rivers, and their tributaries plus Back Bay
Back Bay and tributaries including Lake Tecumseh and the North Landing River and its tributaries
No drum less than 18 inches or greater than 27 inches
spotted sea trout (speckled trout)
No sea trout less than 14 inches
grey trout (weakfish)
Back Bay and tributaries including Lake Tecumseh and North Landing River and its tributaries
No grey trout less than 12 inches
southern flounder
No flounder less than 15 inches
northern snakehead
Anglers may possess snakeheads taken from Virginia waters if they immediately kill the fish and notify the headquarters or a regional office of the department; notification may be made by telephoning (804) 367-2925
bowfin
No eel less than 9 inches
Back Bay and North Landing River
No possession limit for those individuals possessing a permit obtained under 4VAC15-340-80
other native or naturalized nongame fish
See 4VAC15-360-10. Fish: Aquatic Invertebrates, Amphibians, Reptiles, and Nongame Fish. Taking aquatic invertebrates, amphibians, reptiles, and nongame fish for private use.
endangered or threatened fish
See 4VAC15-20-130. Definitions and Miscellaneous: In General. Endangered and threatened species; adoption of federal list; additional species enumerated.
nonnative (exotic) fish
See 4VAC15-30-40. Definitions and Miscellaneous: Importation, Possession, Sale, Etc., of Animals. Importation requirements, possession and sale of nonnative (exotic) animals.
§§ 29.1-103, 29.1-501, and 29.1-502 of the Code of Virginia.
Derived from Virginia Register Volume 19, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 2003; amended, Virginia Register Volume 22, Issue 19, eff. July 1, 2006; Volume 24, Issue 10, eff. January 1, 2008; Volume 27, Issue 10, eff. January 1, 2011; Volume 29, Issue 9, eff. January 1, 2013; Volume 31, Issue 9, eff. January 1, 2015; Volume 33, Issue 10, eff. January 1, 2017; Volume 35, Issue 2, eff. January 1, 2019.
Derived from VR325-03-1 § 3, eff. January 1, 1992; amended, Virginia Register Volume 11, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1995; amended, Virginia Register Volume 13, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1997; Volume 15, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1999; Volume 17, Issue 6, eff. January 1, 2001; repealed, Virginia Register Volume 19, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 2003.
4VAC15-320-40. Sale of game fish, yellow perch, white perch, gizzard shad, carp, gar, and catfish.
Game fish, yellow perch, and catfish raised in a privately owned facility by the holder of a Permit to Propagate and Sell Certain Wildlife or Permit to Hold and Sell Certain Wildlife may be sold as follows: (i) game fish for stocking private waters; (ii) game fish for stocking public waters only with approval from the department pursuant to 4VAC15-320-60; (iii) trout pursuant to 4VAC15-330-180 and 4VAC15-330-190; and (iv) yellow perch and catfish for stocking private waters, public waters pursuant to 4VAC15-320-60, or for human consumption. Except as otherwise provided for in 4VAC15-320-25 and 4VAC15-360-10, catfish, yellow perch, white perch, gizzard shad, carp, and gar may be taken from below the fall line in all tidal rivers of the Chesapeake Bay and sold commercially in accordance with Virginia Marine Resources Commission commercial fishing regulations.
§§ 29.1-103, 29.1-501 and 29.1-502 of the Code of Virginia.
Derived from VR325-03-1 § 4, eff. January 1, 1989; amended, Virginia Register Volume 11, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1995; Volume 13, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1997; Volume 19, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 2003; Volume 23, Issue 9, eff. January 15, 2007.
4VAC15-320-50. Fish used as bait prohibited in certain waters.
It shall be unlawful to use any species of fish as bait in the waters and tributaries of Lick Creek in Smyth and Bland counties, Bear Creek in Smyth County, Laurel Creek in Tazewell and Bland counties, Big Stony Creek in Giles County, Dismal Creek in Bland and Giles Counties, Laurel Creek in Bland County, and Cripple Creek in Smyth and Wythe Counties.
Derived from VR325-03-1 § 5, Virginia Register Volume 11, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1995; amended, Virginia Register Volume 19, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 2003; Volume 35, Issue 2, eff. January 1, 2019.
4VAC15-320-60. Approval required to stock fish into inland waters.
It shall be unlawful to stock any species of fish into any inland waters of the Commonwealth, without first obtaining written approval to do so from the department. Nothing in this section shall be construed as restricting the use of native and naturalized species of fish in privately-owned ponds and lakes, except blue catfish and their hybrids may not be stocked.
Derived from VR325-03-1 § 6, eff. January 1, 1991; amended, Virginia Register Volume 11, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1995; Volume 31, Issue 9, eff. January 1, 2015.
4VAC15-320-70. Use of certain mechanical devices in tail waters of Kerr Dam.
It shall be unlawful to dispatch a lure by means of any mechanical device other than rod and reel in the tail waters of Kerr Dam for a distance of 600 yards below that dam.
Derived from VR325-03-1 § 7, eff. July 1, 1973; amended, Virginia Register Volume 11, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1995.
4VAC15-320-80. Fishing, collecting bait, etc., in tail waters of Leesville Dam.
It shall be unlawful to fish, attempt to fish, assist others in fishing or collect or attempt to collect bait while wading in any of the waters of the Roanoke River from Leesville Dam downstream a distance of 840 feet to a permanent overhead cable; provided, that this shall not be construed to prohibit persons from fishing from behind the safety railings of the Leesville Access Structure built by the department.
§§ 29.1-501, 29.1-502, 29.1-701 and 29.1-735 of the Code of Virginia.
Derived from VR325-03-1 § 8, eff. January 1, 1989; amended, Virginia Register Volume 11, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1995.
4VAC15-320-90. Exception to requirement of national forest permit.
A national forest permit, as provided for in § 29.1-408 of the Code of Virginia shall not be required to fish from national forest lands in the North and South forks of the Shenandoah River, in the James River, in Skidmore Lake in Rockingham County, in Lake Moomaw (Gathright Project), in the Jackson River below Gathright Dam, in North Fork Pound Reservoir, and in Wilson Creek downstream of Douthat Lake in Alleghany and Bath Counties.
Derived from VR325-03-1 § 9, eff. January 1, 1982; amended, Virginia Register Volume 11, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1995; Volume 13, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1997; Volume 27, Issue 10, eff. January 1, 2011.
4VAC15-320-100. Department-owned or controlled lakes, ponds, streams, boat access sites, or hatcheries.
A. Motors and boats. Unless otherwise posted at each recognized entrance to any department-owned or controlled lake, pond or stream, the use of boats propelled by gasoline motors, sail or mechanically operated recreational paddle wheel is prohibited. Department employees and other government agency officials may use gasoline motors in the performance of official duties.
B. Method of fishing. Taking any fish at any department-owned or controlled lake, pond or stream by any means other than by use of one or more attended poles with hook and line attached is prohibited unless otherwise posted in which case cast nets (subject to 4VAC15-360-10 B) may be used for collecting nongame fish for use as bait.
C. Hours for fishing. Fishing is permitted 24 hours a day unless otherwise posted at each recognized entrance to any department-owned or controlled lake, pond, stream, or boat access site.
D. Seasons; hours and methods of fishing; size and creel limits; hunting and trapping. The open seasons for fishing, as well as fishing hours, methods of taking fish and the size, possession and creel limits, and hunting and trapping for department-owned or department-controlled lakes, ponds, streams or boat access sites shall conform to the regulations of the board unless otherwise excepted by posted rules by the director or his designee. Such posted rules shall be displayed at each lake, pond, stream or boat access site, in which case the posted rules shall be in effect. Failure to comply with posted rules concerning seasons, hours, methods of taking, bag limits, and size, possession and creel limits shall constitute a violation of this regulation.
E. Other uses. Camping overnight or building fires (except in developed and designated areas), swimming, or wading in department-owned or department-controlled lakes, ponds or streams (except by anglers, hunters and trappers actively engaged in fishing, hunting or trapping), is prohibited. All other uses shall conform to the regulations of the board unless excepted by posted rules.
F. Fishing tournaments, etc. It shall be unlawful to organize, conduct, supervise or solicit entries for fishing tournaments, rodeos or other fishing events on lakes, ponds, or streams owned by the department, for which prizes are offered, awarded or accepted based on size or numbers of fish caught, either in money or other valuable considerations. This chapter will not prohibit events approved by the department that are intended to promote youth fishing or provide instruction, provided no prizes, as defined above, are awarded and no participation fees are charged.
Derived from VR325-03-1 § 10, eff. January 1, 1991; amended, Virginia Register Volume 11, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1995; Volume 15, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1999; Volume 17, Issue 6, eff. January 1, 2001; Volume 17, Issue 19, eff. July 4, 2001; Volume 21, Issue 1, eff. September 20, 2004; Volume 22, Issue 16, eff. May 17, 2006.
4VAC15-320-110. [Repealed]
Derived from VR325-03-1 § 11, eff. July 1, 1980; repealed, Virginia Register Volume 11, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1995.
4VAC15-320-120. Special daily permit for fishing in Clinch Mountain Wildlife Management Area, Douthat State Park Lake, Crooked Creek, and Wilson Creek.
A. It shall be unlawful to fish in the portion of Big Tumbling Creek within the Clinch Mountain Wildlife Management Area, in Douthat State Park Lake and in Wilson Creek both above the lake to the park boundary and downstream to the lower USFS boundary, and in the Crooked Creek fee fishing area in Carroll County without having first paid to the department for such privilege a daily use fee. Such daily use fee shall be in addition to all other license fees provided by law.
B. This fee will be required from the first Saturday in April through September 30 for the portion of Big Tumbling Creek within the Clinch Mountain Wildlife Management Area and Crooked Creek fee fishing area in Carroll County, and from the first Saturday in April through June 15 and from September 15 through October 31 at Douthat State Park Lake and Wilson Creek, except that the director may temporarily suspend fee requirements if conditions cause suspension of trout stocking. During the remainder of the year, Douthat State Park Lake, Wilson Creek, and the Crooked Creek fee fishing area in Carroll County will revert to designated stocked trout waters and a trout license will be required except as provided in 4VAC15-20-190, and beginning on January 1, 2018, the portion of Big Tumbling Creek within the Clinch Mountain Wildlife Management Area will revert to a seasonal catch and release area subject to 4VAC15-330-150. No fishing is permitted in these waters for five days preceding the opening day.
C. Upon payment of the daily use fee the department shall issue a special permit that shall be signed and carried by the person fishing.
D. Fishing shall begin at 9 a.m. on opening day at all fee areas. After opening day, fishing times will be as posted at each fee area.
E. The department may recognize clearly marked "children only" fishing areas within any department fee fishing area. Within these "children only" areas, children 12 years old or younger may fish without the daily use fee if accompanied by a fully licensed adult who has purchased a valid daily permit. No person older than 12 years of age may fish in these children-only areas. Also, children 12 years of age and younger can fish without a permit in all three fee fishing areas if under the direct supervision of a permitted adult. However, the combined daily creel limit for both adult and child or children in such a party shall not exceed six trout. During the fee fishing season these waters will be subject to 4VAC15-330-60, 4VAC15-330-80, and 4VAC15-330-90, as it relates to designated stocked trout waters.
Derived from VR325-03-1 § 12, eff. January 1, 1985; amended, Virginia Register Volume 9, Issue 4, eff. January 1, 1993; Volume 11, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1995; Volume 13, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1997; Volume 15, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1999; Volume 17, Issue 6, eff. January 1, 2001; Volume 31, Issue 9, eff. January 1, 2015; Volume 33, Issue 10, eff. January 1, 2017.
4VAC15-320-130. (Repealed.)
Derived from VR325-03-1 § 13, eff. January 1, 1989; amended, Virginia Register Volume 9, Issue 4, eff. January 1, 1993; Volume 11, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1995; repealed Virginia Register Volume 27, Issue 10, eff. January 1, 2011.
Derived from VR325-03-1 § 14, eff. April 1, 1981; amended, Virginia Register Volume 11, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1995; repealed, Virginia Register Volume 35, Issue 2, eff. January 1, 2019.
4VAC15-320-150. Shooting certain fish in Clinch River in Scott County.
It shall be lawful for any person holding a current license to fish to shoot suckers, redhorse and carp with a rifle, during the hours of sunrise to sunset, from April 15 to May 31, both inclusive, in the waters of the Clinch River within the limits of Scott County; except, that it shall be unlawful to shoot fish on Sunday, or within the limits of any town, or from any bridge. No more than 20 such fish may be so taken during any one day. All persons engaged in the shooting or the retrieval of fish pursuant to this section shall have in their possession a current fishing license.
Derived from VR325-03-1 § 15, eff. January 1, 1989; amended, Virginia Register Volume 11, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1995.
4VAC15-320-160. Altering of game fish in possession prohibited.
It shall be unlawful for any person while fishing to remove the head or tail or otherwise change the appearance of any game fish (except bluegill sunfish and bream of the sunfish family) having a daily creel or size limit so as to obscure its species or render it impracticable to measure its total original length or count the number of such fish in possession. In addition, it shall be unlawful for any person to possess or transport such altered game fish while on the water. However, the prohibition against possession and transportation in the previous sentence shall not apply to the preparations of lawfully obtained fish for immediate use as food or any lawful commercial use of such fish.
Derived from Virginia Register Volume 15, Issue 5, eff. January 1, 1999.
4VAC15-320-170. Fishways.
It shall be unlawful to fish or to collect bait March 1 through June 15 within 300 feet of Boshers Dam Fishway on the north bank of James River, or within 150 feet of Harvell Dam Fishway on the south bank of Appomattox River.
Forms (4VAC15-320)
Application/permit for striped bass fishing tournament.
Nonresident harvester's permit to take or catch fish in Back Bay and its tributaries.