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Jamelia and Kirsty had to dance off. The vampiric judges saved Jamelia. Kirsty was eliminated!
This week's spoiler has come from a zombified audience were-mole through my usual coven of witches and should be accurate!
Thanks Dave for letting us know who has been voted off.
At best our Carol was saved, she at least is like the rest of us , would like to but with a 30 year start ,no chance. Wish contestants would stop the pointing routine at the onscreen phone no. anyone who does will not get our vote !!
Well done Dave for a brilliant site.
Pity the Beeb doesnt count the viewers as having a modicum of interlect, and run the prog to a result.
I still don't understand why the BBC can't show the results on Saturday night. I get mildly irritated with the Sunday night show and everyone pretending that the show wasn't recorded on Saturday night grrr.
Thanks Dave. I agree BBC should stop pretending the result show is live watching show again, I wish the BBC would get rid of theme nights and go back to a proper training video not the 'comedy' which falls flat.
Are Carol and Jeremy still in Strictly because they are nice people . Len hit the nail when he said Carol had had no dance experience but has always tried her best .Some of these contestants who went to stage school have had dance training.
Thanks Dave for the updates.
who said their is no racism at the BBC? Jamelia now 4 time dance off? And Ainsley went last week. Neither of them are the worst by a long way. How Carol and Jeremy are still there beggars belief.
I can't help thinking that it's comments like this that perpetuate racism. Similarly I hadn't noticed that prior to this week all the eliminations had been men until it was mentioned on the show. It isn't a battle of the genders, and it isn't a battle of the races unless we elect to make it that. It's time to allow these unnecessary preconceptions to wither.
Jamelia and Ainsley black? Can't say I even noticed guv'nor.
Really? Carol is the most atrocious dancer by far, but until all the black contestants are out (or the Strictly viewing demographic changes) she'll stay in.
You do know Carol got eliminated last week right? Before Anita Rani! And Jamelia!
Thanks for sharing. The Sunday results show is a farce. When they talk about "yesterday's" dances they must think we're morons.
and heres me thinking that it was a dance competition, not a comedy competition … silly me. As usual the great british public votes for the underdog … or maybe the BBC do, which wouldnt surprise me in the least.
perhaps your 'insider' could get his hands on the so-called phone vote scores … if it really exists?
Whilst its predominantly a dance competition it's also a Saturday night entertainment show and as I've said, every year a contestant who can't dance gets further than they should. Anne Widdecombe, John Sergeant and Russel Grant being obvious examples. Generally speaking it doesn't affect the overall winner. No one who has been eliminated so far this series had a remote chance of winning!


text:
Babylon Man Sentenced for DWI Crash That Killed Teen
Timothy Bolger
A man who was convicted of driving drunk and causing a crash that killed a teenager in her hometown of Lindenhurst was sentenced Monday to 10 2/3 to 32 years in prison.
Michael Grasing had been convicted in November at Suffolk County court of vehicular homicide, manslaughter, driving while intoxicated, leaving the scene of a fatal accident and traffic violations. He was acquitted of second-degree murder by depraved indifference.
Prosecutors said the 34-year-old Babylon man had a blood alcohol content of 0.32 percent—four times the legal limit—while speeding in his Nissan Maxima more than 85 mph on Montauk Highway when he rear-ended 18-year old Brittney Walsh's Kia Sportage, which then flip multiple times on June 24, 2012.
"The defendant continued down Montauk Highway and, at times, he drove on the sidewalk, and narrowly missed a crowd," Suffolk County District Attorney Tom Spota said. "His car was finally rendered immobile when he hit a utility pole."
Walsh, a recent high school graduate who was driving home from her job at a local department store, was pronounced dead at the scene.
Justice Mark Cohen ordered the sentences for each charge to be served consecutively. Grasing's attorney, William Keahon, told reporters that he plans to appeal.
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Timothy Bolger is the Editor in Chief of the Long Island Press who's been working to uncover unreported stories since shortly after it launched in 2003. When he's not editing, getting hassled by The Man or fielding cold calls to the newsroom, he covers crime, general interest and political news in addition to reporting longer, sometimes investigative features. He won't be happy until everyone is as pissed off as he is about how screwed up Lawn Guyland is.
NYPD Sgt. Charged With Shooting Wife's Trainer in Seaford
Uniondale Man Charged With Killing Pregnant Girlfriend, Dumping Body in NYC
Hamptons Man Charged With Seeking Absentee Ballots For Dead Mom

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text:
Q: KILL -9 in Kubernetes container for react app while building I have a react app that I want to deploy to kubernetes using a docker file and host it using nginx. My Dockerfile looks like this
FROM node:14-alpine as build

# Install git
RUN apk update && apk upgrade && \
    apk add --no-cache git

WORKDIR /src
COPY package*.json ./

RUN npm config set unsafe-perm true
RUN npm install
COPY . .
RUN npm run build

My kuberetes configuration after running kustomization looks like this
apiVersion: v1
data:
  settings.ts.ctmpl: |
    export const LIGHTHOUSE_API_HOST = 'stageBackendURL';
kind: ConfigMap
metadata:
  name: lighthouse-web-configmap-6968hk6f5g
---
apiVersion: v1
kind: Service
metadata:
  labels:
    app: lighthouse-web
    manifest_type: svc
  name: lighthouse-web
spec:
  ports:
  - port: 80
    protocol: TCP
    targetPort: 3001
  selector:
    app: lighthouse-web
  type: LoadBalancer
---
apiVersion: apps/v1
kind: Deployment
metadata:
  name: lighthouse-web
spec:
  minReadySeconds: 10
  progressDeadlineSeconds: 600
  selector:
    matchLabels:
      app: lighthouse-web
  template:
    metadata:
      labels:
        app: lighthouse-web
      name: lighthouse-web
    spec:
      containers:
      - args:
        - npm
        - run
        - serve
        image: <url to image>
        imagePullPolicy: Always
        name: lighthouse-web
        ports:
        - containerPort: 3001
          name: http
        volumeMounts:
        - mountPath: /src/src/settings.ts
          name: lighthouse-web-config
          subPath: settings.ts
        - mountPath: /src/build
          name: lighthouse-web-static
      - image: nginx:1.14
        imagePullPolicy: Always
        name: nginx
        ports:
        - containerPort: 80
          name: nginx
        volumeMounts:
        - mountPath: /usr/share/nginx/html
          name: lighthouse-web-static
      initContainers:
      - args:
        - -template
        - /config-templates/settings.ts.ctmpl:/config/settings.ts
        - -log-level
        - trace
        - -once
        image: <URL TO DOCKER IMAGE>
        imagePullPolicy: Always
        name: consul-template
        resources:
          limits:
            cpu: 500m
            memory: 500Mi
          requests:
            cpu: 500m
            memory: 500Mi
        volumeMounts:
        - mountPath: /config-templates
          name: lighthouse-web-configmap
        - mountPath: /config
          name: lighthouse-web-config
      volumes:
      - configMap:
          name: lighthouse-web-configmap-6968hk6f5g
        name: lighthouse-web-configmap
      - emptyDir: {}
        name: lighthouse-web-config
      - emptyDir: {}
        name: lighthouse-web-static

when i deploy this, the build directory is empty. I tried to ssh to the container and manually build it but got this error:
export NODE_OPTIONS=--max_old_space_size=4096 && react-scripts build

Creating an optimized production build...
The build failed because the process exited too early. This probably means the system ran out of memory or someone called `kill -9` on the process.
npm ERR! code ELIFECYCLE
npm ERR! errno 1
npm ERR! lighthouse@0.1.0 build: `export NODE_OPTIONS=--max_old_space_size=4096 && react-scripts build`
npm ERR! Exit status 1
npm ERR!

I had earlier kept the memory and cpu at 1gi and 100m but tried increasing to 16Gi and 8Gi but still didn't work.

A: Few notes on the above :
1: I'd use multistage Dockerfile build, where your whole build process happens in the node container but the final, complete, built application is then copied into an nginx based container like
FROM node as build
...
FROM nginx
COPY --from=build /path/to/app /usr/share/nginx/html

2: npm builds are expensive processes, doing npm build in your kube env, with reasonable runtime limits set, is very likely to run into issues like the one you mention here.
3: make sure that the app artifacts are correctly created on your workstation/build system

redpajama_set_name: RedPajamaStackExchange


Univer Capital investment group has completed the purchase of 23% in PJSC Ukrainian Exchange (Kyiv) from Moscow Exchange (Russia), according to the website of Univer.
According to the report, the group was transferred property rights to 100% of the shares in PJSC Ukrainian Exchange Holding (Kyiv), which owns about 20% in Ukrainian Exchange and directly holds about 3% of the stock exchange.
Univer transferred these shares to its customer's account on March 9.
Other details of the transaction have not been specified.
As reported, the National Commission of Ukraine on Securities and the Stock Market at the end of December 2015 permitted British company Teta Partners Ltd, affiliated with Univer Capital Group, to acquire an indirect significant stake in Ukrainian Exchange.


text:
Cheptainville – miejscowość i gmina we Francji, w regionie Île-de-France, w departamencie Essonne.

Według danych na rok 1990 gminę zamieszkiwało 1361 osób, a gęstość zaludnienia wynosiła 190 osób/km² (wśród 1287 gmin regionu Île-de-France Cheptainville plasuje się na 572. miejscu pod względem liczby ludności, natomiast pod względem powierzchni na miejscu 541.).

Bibliografia

Miejscowości w departamencie Essonne


Have you ever heard of the character Echo, the lovely wood nymph, in the ancient Greek love tragedy of Echo and Narcissus? We all know very well the fate of Narcissus. He fell in love with his own image in a pool of water right? But what about Echo who fell so deeply in love with Narcissus she disappeared? She must have been his perfect counterpart more than just a mere echo of a voice. I believe she is a much more important character in the story than we have been led to believe. Like all of us who have suffered through relationships with Narcissists, it is time we tell our version of the story. I would like to share mine with you and tell you unlike Echo in the myth I got my voice back.
This is a most important rule for me to remember when an N is having a meltdown. For this rule to be applied, means I had to develop some awareness of the fact that the N does not think like me, wants to control the situation and get me to only believe their version of events. I must have compassion for myself, so that I don't get sucked in. I am focused and taking care of my feelings first.I am holding to my belief that I am not on the planet to spend a lot of energy figuring out someone else's stuff.
When N's have meltdowns it is called narcissistic rage due to a narcissistic injury. Narcissistic rage is triggered by some perceived threat usually an insult or criticism that causes an injury. A typical N will react to any perceived threat in an out of control manner. They always assume the other person has hostile intention.
When people are angry, it is usually better to wait and talk when everyone has calmed down.The difference with an N is that to go through a discussion about the meltdown, argument or their bad behavior even if everybody has calmed down will result in the non-N questioning their sanity.
Gaslighting (a term for the psychological means of getting a person to question their own sanity) is a powerful method used by the N. This is a popular tool in the N toolbox. The way my N typically gaslighted was by withholding information, changing the subject, and denying something ever happened. What caused me the most confusion was the gaslighting combined with saying something to cut me down like 'You are really selfish to think like that.' or 'You yelled at me and are always on me' and 'I don't have a moment to breathe because you are so needy' or 'You have a problem with your temper.' All of those statements have a grain of truth some bigger grains than others, so I would look at my own behavior and then blame myself for whatever happened.
Maintaining this rule prevents me from getting into discussions where I defend myself or believe what the N wants me to think about myself. It is preferable to avoid discussions or lectures with an N anyway, but if I am in an unfortunate situation of having a discussion with an N, I keep my sentences short and to the point with no emotion. For example "You can have your feelings. It is ok. I do not agree with your version of reality. I have a different one." Then end the discussion and walk away or keep repeating the above statements to them no matter what they say. Now the statement I use above can increase rage and confrontation, so it is better to walk away fast. If I cannot walk away then it is better to say something like "It is ok to have your feelings. Yes I hear you." The N wants to be perceived as perfect, so they can feel safe again. Anything other than calmly agreeing with them will usually incite more rage.
It is a waste of time to discuss emotions with an N. They will not hear you because for them it is all about power and control, so discussions about another person's feelings, wants, opinions, and thoughts are perceived as a threat to them. It is all about the N. Also, they will interpret any question regarding their own behavior as criticism and will act out defensively until they feel safe and in control.
This rule may be more applicable a bit later in a relationship with a narcissist. After all of the idealizing and excess effort to win your soul (the Idealization Phase), the narcissist will begin the next phase typically called the Devalue phase, it is the point in the relationship where the mask really slips and they start showing their true colors.
They will try to get away with giving the least amount to the relationship as possible, just enough to keep you hooked. The beginning of this phase is also a good time to walk away. Although, anytime is a good time to walk away. There is no reason to accept the crumbs. The only reason they even give crumbs is to break you down, so that you will let them get away with everything. It is only going to get worse from here.
N's process of getting me to accept crumbs was very gradual. N used intermittent love and affection; giving less and less positive attention over time. He blamed me for all of his bad behaviors convincing me I deserved less and less. He would give a merciless punishment and follow it up with taking me out on the town, but then the next day he could easily unleash another punishment like silent treatment.
For example, one night, still early on in our relationship, N took me to the opera. It was something I love to go out and do. He made a big show of it, even suggesting we go in the first place, going out of his way to find out when the show was, getting tickets and making a romantic night out. Two days later he was picking up another woman in a bar. It took me a while to find out he was betraying me. These great nights on the town became fewer and fewer, just enough to keep me hooked.
His charm for me was like a vacuum. It sucked me into N's empty universe where my friendship and laughter filled him for a moment. He sucked me dry and then moved on to the next shiny object usually another woman. When I think of him now I picture him with his head floating above his body like a giant helium balloon. Instead of gaining a broader view above ground, he is always floating above reality. I remember him flirting with me in the beginning and recall him behaving this way with other women, but I was too lulled by his charm that I chose to believe I was special.
The most important thing for me to remember is Ns do not think like other people at all. When they do something loving there is a reason for it and they do just enough to keep the relationship going. Ultimately, I was only an object to N. He just wanted to do whatever he wanted and would get rid of me if I was in the way.
If you notice this pattern in your relationship; the giving is less and less and trying to convince you that is what you deserve, you may have an N on your hands.
It is better to not see the crumbs as proof of anything. Ns can't make up for bad behavior anyway because they don't have any remorse. I needed to see bad behavior as bad behavior. Can taking me out to dinner multiple times really make up for constant lying, betrayal or lack of empathy and blaming me for everything?
Try not to judge. Shut that critical voice down. A judgmental critical voice does not allow me to have any real insight or clarity and that is what I am after. Judgement causes suffering in all of its ugly forms. Also, I do not want to allow anyone to become a negative mirror to me. This means a person who reflects back my bad feelings and beliefs about myself. I may not even be aware that I even have these thoughts and feelings because I am not observing or tuning into myself (recall rule #1).
If I do not have compassion for myself, then I allow another person to reflect back my negative beliefs and feelings and believe them. The effects of this is I try to get love and approval from somebody else, giving away my power to the other person and allowing them to take my energy.
One of the ways I generate compassion for myself is through meditation. I will sit for a few minutes and picture a white light enveloping me and think of a moment I feel really loving like when I hang out with my two little nephews that I absolutely adore. When I feel like I am being hard on myself, I reflect back on the white light and a joyful moment. Also, mantras and positive affirmations can be helpful, but I use these with a nonjudgmental mind not attempting to override a negative thought or feeling. So again Tara Brach's RAIN technique is helpful here too (the A for allow things to be). Taking time for myself is important. Doing loving and caring things like exercise, eating healthy food, spending time in nature, gardening, massage, buying myself flowers or candles, taking baths, and spending time with a good friend or family member.
If you think you may be hanging out with a narcissist then the sooner these rules are applied the better. Even if you don't know for sure whether the person is a narcissist or not, applying these rules may be a good way to find out. These rules are a helpful way to set boundaries with people in general. To the opportunistic narcissist, boundaries are nasty little barbs that interfere with their need to be in total control. They don't like making the extra effort to step over these pesty barbs either, so they will tend to avoid a person with strong boundaries.
The very best way to alleviate suffering for the long term is to get rid of the narcissist altogether. But if you are anything like me, when you find yourself already immersed in a relationship then you might feel compelled to stick around for the fun and games. Because while you are enmeshed with the narcissist, leaving can feel worse than staying.
There are all sorts of reasons for this, but one I will mention is that there is so much confusion that it is incredibly difficult to navigate this type of abusive relationship and yes, my friends, it is abusive.
It took me a while to come to the realization that yes I was being abused because I always said to myself 'it takes two to tango, I am an aggressive button pusher, all relationships are 50/50. To make matters worse, a narcissist has a lovely way of enhancing these beliefs and making everything feel not just 50/50, but 100 to 0 in their favor.
Never try to convince myself of something other than what is there in the moment. Do not under any circumstances create a story around a situation. I have a tendency to care take and also have a very kind imagination, so I will come up with excuses or reasons for behavior and spin stories out of them. For example, I will say to myself, the person is just afraid of intimacy or maybe they had a hard childhood. Even if it is true the person is afraid or something painful from their childhood was triggered, does it really matter what caused their behavior if they treat me badly? When I look at the behavior without the reasons or excuses, I can swiftly set boundaries. Again, it is important to observe the behavior in general without a story line like 'oh he thinks I am so special, we have everything in common'. Do not fall for romantic hype or ego stroking anymore than making excuses for bad behavior. The romantic hype also called love bombing, usually occurs in the beginning of an intimate relationship with a narcissist. The narcissist studies its prey very carefully. The N can seem incredibly interested in you, your interests, they are like a chameleon and will even mold themselves to be the ideal match for you. They will charm you, make you feel loved and adored. It will feel like you met the best listener in the world and the person who really gets you. It is difficult to discern what is going on at this stage, but the relationship will seem too perfect and too good to be true. The N also will want to get close really fast, like wanting to move in together or even get married. Keep your wits about you during this phase also known in narcissist land as the Idealization phase and try not to get hooked.
It is important to be present to the situation in order to be able to observe. To be tuned in to my feelings, my body, and investigating myself as much as I can. Early on in my relationship I had feelings of hair standing up on the back of my neck that I ignored, feelings of fear in my stomach and chest, not knowing why. I knew I was having these feelings, but I was completely following a story that I allowed to override all of the signs that something was wrong. I told myself this relationship is going to work no matter what he does or how he behaves. Because he doesn't mean to be mean. He was hurt as a child. I went so far as to eventually believe that all bad things that happen must have to do with my faults and weaknesses, therefore I have to fix myself in order to make this relationship work.
Being tuned in and able to observe without attaching myself to a story is something I have really had to practice. I use Tara Brach's RAIN as a mindfulness tool. She adapted this acronym from her book 'True Refuge'. Even when I have a hard time tuning into my emotions and feelings in my body, I try to keep it simple using the acronym as my prompt. I state the behavior.I observe first using the R in RAIN to Recognize what is going on , A is to Allow things to just be, I is for Investigate: how do I feel, think, believe about a situation without identifying with or judging any of it, the N is for Non-identification. All stories explaining behavior eventually cause suffering, so stop right there. Stick to the facts please.
This is an introduction for my next post because I want to explain how I use the term Narcissism, why I created 10 rules and use the word 'rules' instead of guidelines and the importance of their application.
What do I mean when I use the term Narcissist? I refer to my ex-husband as N for Narcissist throughout my story, so how did he get that label anyway? From my own research and experience, the traits can be exhibited across a long spectrum.
On the extreme end there is psychopathy, then malignant narcissism, narcissistic personality disorder (DSM Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders DSM-5. 5th ed. Arlington, Va.: American Psychiatric Association; 2013.), to narcissistic traits which many of us can manifest. Also there are different types of narcissists, for example there is the overt narcissist and the covert narcissist, the somatic and the cerebral narcissist. I would say my ex husband N falls between Narcissistic Personality Disorder (he meets all of the criteria in the DSM 5 for the personality disorder diagnosis) and the Malignant Narcissist on the spectrum. Researcher and therapist Steve Becker in his paper 'Differentiating Narcissists from Psychopaths' makes a distinction between Narcissism and Psychopathy by referring to all psychopaths as having narcissistic personality disorder, but not all narcissists are psychopaths. Narcissists need validation and psychopaths seek to destroy. My interpretation is the farther along a person is on the spectrum toward psychopathy the more dangerous because they truly seek to destroy for the thrill of it.
I attracted three other narcissists while I was healing from my abusive marriage. I learned that I did not have any radar. I must have looked like a sitting duck to them. This gave me the idea to come up with rules of behavior and healthy ways for me to process my thoughts and feelings. Something I can do to help me set boundaries with people. That remind me I am responsible for and accountable to myself and give me the ability to find out if a person is toxic, narcissistic, psychopathic, or anyone along this spectrum and swiftly get rid of them. I learned the hard way that a narcissist will give up on a person with strong boundaries rather quickly.
I regularly put my rules to work out in the land of the free roaming narcissists and have even found these rules to work on run of the mill toxic people. There is no particular order. Any of them can and should be applied at any time, although at certain points in a relationship with a Narcissist one rule may be more feasible than another. They are great tools to screen people while dating, making new friends, for starting a new relationship or even if embedded in a relationship with a possible narcissist. These rules also helped me establish no contact with my narcissistic ex.
I use the word 'Rules' instead of guidelines because, for me, they must be followed. Narcissistic abuse is very serious and narcissists wreak so much havoc that for those of us who don't have a good radar these rules are a great protection device. As I will convey in future posts about my story, I do not always follow them myself and show what happens when I don't. The rules aren't a recipe to lower self esteem or an invitation to be hard on oneself. I created them to protect myself like a shield from the wolves in sheep's clothing (the narcissist, psychopath, malignant narcissist, and toxic people). It also encourages a mindful practice for developing a healthy relationship with myself and therefore others.
For every light there is a dark. For every high there is a low. This is the natural balance of the universe in all things. Ok I expect the highs and lows with drugs and alcohol, but should a relationship have similar elements? C'mon is this the universe's cruel joke? I legitimately fell in love with someone who loved me too. Or at least he said he did. What is wrong with that?
I would eventually see the ebb and flow of dark and light in my relationship become almost total darkness. I trembled alone for long periods in the dark waiting to be loved. I was like an abandoned child desperate for even the slightest sign of acknowledgement. The narcissist doesn't stay in a relationship without using intermittent love and affection as a method to control. This caused me severe withdrawal symptoms from what was becoming the few and far between blissful times in the relationship.But I believed I could be patient and tough and could survive on his mere crumbs in exchange for a slim hope of love. I told myself we were just going through a phase.
The Devalue/Discard phase is the next level of narcissistic treatment. My narcissist had reliably set up a pattern of raising me to a pedestal only to cruelly toss me into a dark pit of despair when I did not reflect back to him the image he demanded or when I did not live up to his ideal, or just to be cruel. He would easily replace me with someone else playing the correct role, all the while punishing me by throwing it in my face. In my case he liked to date other women.He would leave clues around that something was going on. When I would question it he would deny deny deny. I eventually learned my behavior didn't matter. This pattern reared its ugly head more faithfully than anything else in our relationship. And each time I went through the gauntlet it only strengthened my desire to do everything in my power to recreate the bliss, to make everything ok, to live up to his ideal, and to be a perfect mirror for him.
I was losing myself, slipping into a full blown addiction that was sapping my life force. From my research, I learned that this dynamic creates what is called trauma bonding (see Peter Walker and Patrick Carnes) and like drugs and alcohol can cause all sorts of chemical reactions in the body that are extremely addictive and can be just as powerful as any drug abuse if not more so. An important point here is that this process is so difficult to kick that it is better to nip the relationship in the bud before any real attachment begins. If you are early on in a relationship and begin to suspect that he/she is a narcissist check out my rules on this blog. They can also be used for screening and then blocking.
It took me a while to come to the realization that yes I am being abused because I always said to myself 'it takes two to tango, I am an aggressive button pusher, all relationships are 50/50′. A narcissist has a lovely way of enhancing these beliefs and making everything feel not just 50/50, but 100 to 0 in their favor.
The ups and downs and highs and lows of my relationship to a narcissist caused me to constantly question the nature of reality. I went with his version of gravity for a while. This process occurred slowly and subtly until it was normal for him to control my world.
When I first got away from him I was so disoriented. I had made myself leave for physical safety reasons, but I didn't want to actually leave him. In the moment, the only thing I was sure of, was his rage was out of control and had scared me. It would take multiple attempts over two years for me to permanently sever myself from him. Meanwhile, after stepping out of the initial shock of pain of our first break up; I was desperate to figure out what was happening to us and how to fix it asap, so everything would be ok.
I read everything I could get my jaws into like a voracious shark. I swallowed whole books about personality disorders, abuse survivor stories, and techniques for changing myself.
I learned from the books I read that his behavior was verbally and physically abusive, but didn't I cause it? I had researched narcissism and believed that he had some of the character traits, but definitely not all. I mean I was never afraid he was going to kill me, but maybe hurt me. I mean he had hurt me, but he isn't that dangerous. I would never allow someone to really abuse me. We are just two people who are troubled and can work on ourselves.
We can fix this. I even found a book called 'Disarming the Narcissist' that actually offered techniques to help me with my possible narcissist. This is hope. I will try these and we can still get back together. Also, I can be a better person for him. The few people who heard my side of the troubles usually said things like 'Oh well just chalk it up to: you two are not a good match.' This explanation never felt right and made me insanely angry.
I didn't believe for a second we were a bad match and railed against any insinuation of this. I wanted him back. No matter all of the pain and suffering. I told myself it was mostly my fault anyway. I would do anything for another moment with him. Oh to be in the bliss of his full attention, my favorite place of all time was perched high on his pedestal, showered with his approval. This is what I could not live without. I believed he must love me. We connect like sacred soul mates.. I would put up with anything, be anything, change anything to repeat these moments on high. I have never felt like this about anyone. I tell myself we are only apart right now because we both need to work on ourselves individually.
I remember people commenting on our connection and how electrical and amazing it was. How they only wished they could have a connection like we do. I felt so high sometimes like we were floating above it all with nothing to tether us to this world and only the stars to guide us on our path to bliss higher and higher. Yet what they didn't see and what I refused to see was my gradual withdrawal from my former life. There was something very wrong, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. I was falling apart. All I had to do was look at my face in the mirror and watch it get thinner by the day. I was losing a lot of weight and felt afraid most of the time. I covered up the fear with copious amounts of alcohol.
In the past, I had meditated for relaxation and stress reduction when I was suffering from health issues, but I had not really pursued a spiritual practice and had no idea what spirit really meant. I had studied Buddhism a little. It appeared to offer tools for calming the mind down, like meditation. I did remember, similar to Christianity, it talked about suffering, but it seemed like the philosophy had applicable practices for the here and now to get rid of suffering. Less like a religion and more a technique of working with the mind. Maybe the Buddha could help me?
Any type of formal study of Buddhism will usually begin with the four noble truths which is the main part of the Buddha's first sermon after he achieved enlightenment, and also the foundation of the practice.
The first noble truth is often translated as "Life is suffering." I read this and wanted to throw my book across the room. Ok! Yes I get it. I am suffering right now. Please tell me something I don't know, but I was desperate enough that I stopped myself from continuing this automatic reaction. I thought about the fact that this is a really old philosophy and a lot of people I respect have said that Buddhism has changed their lives.
The Pali word dukkha which is translated as suffering in English, also refers to anything that is temporary or conditional. Even something precious and enjoyable is dukkha, because it will end. This is the nature of life and also the nature of death. Now I was even more depressed. There was no hope nor a way out of this labyrinth of suffering?
The Buddha taught that this suffering in life has to do with our perception of who we think we are rather than who we really are. Before we can understand life and death we must understand the self. I realized right away because of my own study of psychology in college that the psychology of Buddhism has a different view from the west. In the west we conceive of a self as essential, important, real, and fixed. Yet Buddhism is proposing a self that is a fiction, a delusion. What the hell does this mean I wonder?
4 years ago I was a childless 39 year old woman who lived alone! My parents got me a goldfish because I was going through a divorce and they were worried about me being alone. I kept it alive for almost 4 years. I remember hauling the tank over to friends' homes whenever I went out of town for a few days. The dirty fish water sloshed onto the floor of my car. Probably cut several years off of the poor creature's life. I should have just had someone come to my place to feed it once a day, but I didn't want the fish to mostly be alone for all of the days I was gone. I didn't get another fish for the tank because I was never convinced that my goldfish wanted to share the tank. He or she seemed perfectly content on its own.
When bad things have happened to me I usually wallow for a bit in my misery and then try to come up with solutions. I believe I have had the typical dose of bad crap in life from my parents divorce to my own divorce. I battled with painful health issues for over 2 years in my late 30's. But overall I kept on. I did not lose my world or myself. I kept my job, my friends, my life mostly intact throughout my mishaps. I hurt. I was miserable at times, but I knew I was going to come out of it and be ok. I had a history of alcohol abuse especially during my divorce, so when I started having health problems I sobered up and changed my diet. I still smoked occasionally, but nothing like I used to. Gradually, I got healthier and this gave me a great deal of confidence. I had learned a tremendous amount about physical balance in the body. I loved the feeling of calm I got from taking such good care of myself. I biked everywhere and that became my regular exercise. I meditated daily for about 10 minutes. I took a writing class. Made some new friends. I had financial stability. I had been single for over two years and was enjoying it. I had some trips planned with friends. I was in the perfect place in my life to welcome a new relationship with a man who would forever change my life. What I didn't know at the time was that maybe like my goldfish I was perfectly content being on my own.
I hope you can follow me on this very crooked path of hard won transformation as I separate myself from an extremely abusive relationship with a narcissist. It wasn't until I was untethered from this relationship that I realized I did not know the person I married. And even worse I did not know myself. He sucked the life out of me until I felt forced to choose between living and dying. Anytime I got a bit of strength back in me he came back for more and the destruction happened all over again. He was like a vampire and I was his highly tolerant, empathic victim desperate for love and approval, willing to feed him my life blood; he held all of me in the palm of his hand. At the time I had no idea what was happening and I certainly would not have claimed I was being abused. I had no idea what trauma and abuse can do to a person, but I would find out.
I would like to use blog posts to describe my journey not unlike Echo's story of suffering and disappearance, but that it is possible to have a better life after loving a narcissist. Yes I went through an incredibly destructive relationship, had tremendous difficulty leaving, and establishing no contact. I traversed a variety of avenues of healing and recovery and have struggled with discipline and effort. I will explain what worked for me, what didn't and why. Also, I would love to hear from anyone in the world. Any and all comments are welcome.
This is something I wrote in my journal right after N moved out. I was in a whirlwind of emotion, confusion, and at a loss for what to do with myself. I wanted to hear a story from someone who made it out of this painful labyrinth. A person who had a better life now. Then I wanted to be told there was hope and a future with a real soul mate. But most importantly, I wanted to know how they did it. Where did they go? What did they do? How did they keep going? Because amidst my pain, it seemed impossible to me that anyone could survive.
I knew about 6 months into the relationship there was something off about N, but his behaviors didn't seem to match up with what I knew about typical abuse. I observed he could be full of rage and scary, but it had not been aimed at me. I ignored this because I loved him desperately. After we broke up, because the rage had been aimed at me, I still loved him, wanted him back and hoped every day he would come for me.
No one in my life could grasp this insanity. I had nowhere to turn to get support for these very dissonant thoughts and feelings. Whether we were together or not I could not take the pain of being abandoned by him or even the thought of it. I felt like I was running on empty lost in a desert. No protection from the elements of life.
The worst part was I had intense anxiety about being alone. In fact I couldn't live alone after the initial break up because to me I equated being alone with death. It stirred up that much anxiety. In flight from this fear; I moved in with my dad and stepmom. I lost my job two weeks after that. I was fired for lack of caring. I had been at the same job almost 11 years. After that I drank every night at a nearby pub with my friends popping a xanax here and there. Then fled Seattle to visit my friend in Calgary for a week.
She peeled me off her doorstep and held me while I cried off and on between panic attacks. I was a mad mess, but she is a therapist and knows about trauma. Her presence was amazing. I did not talk to N the week I was there. I had only seen him a few times after he had moved out. I was proud of myself because I had gone to court to get the papers to file for a separation. He owed me a significant amount of money, so I wanted something in writing. He seemed incredibly surprised when I presented the papers to him. I was on the right track keeping my distance from him and contact to a minimum. This did not last.
When I returned from Calgary I felt like a salmon swimming upstream, his bait came in swift. I was pulled out of the water with an elaborate hook, all of my previous effort wasted, only to fall right back into his stream of lies and manipulation. I became a liar. I lied to everyone about when, how much we talked, and what our conversations entailed. I became angry and volatile, I was unable to focus, read, watch tv or movies, my mind was clogged with thoughts of him. I vacillated between love and need versus extreme fear of being hurt by him again.
He had told me I was not ok. I was not good enough. He did not want me. He never loved me. These thoughts had come to roost in the center of my mind. They had taken over and had a life of their own. I became paranoid about him and other women. This became an obsession. The thought did not cause jealousy, but absolute terror. I was unable to set boundaries with people and if I did, I would allow them or myself to violate them. I could no longer rely or trust myself to do any decent self care. I only wanted to drink to the point of disintegrating into a puddle and then flow right down into the sewer where I belonged. I didn't really want to die even though I had suicidal thoughts.
I liken my experience at this time to having been kicked out of the human tribe, left to survive on my own. The fear felt so real and severe that I wondered if the break up had triggered some horrifying unconscious trauma like my own mother had left me perhaps hanging by my hair from a lone Joshua tree in an empty desert. So my body is turned on high alert wondering if I am going to make it or not. I wanted to be rescued. I wanted the fear and pain to stop. But there was also something else, I wanted something to rely on that did not change day to day, something bigger and more powerful than I could ever be. Something beyond an all loving mom or a safe womb. But first how to stop the acute pain. I had no idea.
I knew that I needed to find out what was eating me from the inside out. Why this overwhelming fear of being abandoned and alone? I decided to go online and see if I could find anything that might explain it and what to do about it. While I was searching I ran across a moving quote by Pema Chodron (a Buddhist nun who herself had gone through two divorces).
When I read this, it stopped me for a moment in my tracks. I was so afraid of my feelings; all of them especially loneliness, but why? I had no idea what I was running from and furthermore didn't know what I was running to. I was exhausting myself doing the same thing over and over again to stop the same thoughts and feelings yet I didn't know really what was going on. A mob of thoughts had established a meeting place in my mind that I was not invited to and wanted to avoid as much as possible. They had staged a revolt. I was getting overthrown and was terrified. I tried to hide in my bottle of wine I didn't exactly know what I was up against because I had always used the outside world to help me escape from my rabblerausing thoughts. I was afraid my pattern of running was not working this time. My problem of using alcohol and pills to survive was not enough to keep the fear away. Unless I stopped I could not focus long enough to read and absorb anything let alone try something different. I needed to sober up before I drowned my mind permanently.
"Because I SAW one in the early 1970's!"
Unpolished thoughts siphoned from an overactive brain.
Settling for less just doesn't work for me.


Poire - A blend of Forelle, Comice, and Bosc pears grown in our orchard. The complex structure of this winter pear blend is enhanced by a slow, cold ferment. Semi-dry with a natural effervescent finish. 5.9% ABV.


text:
Bringing People Back From The Brink Of Suicide
NEAL CONAN, HOST:
This is TALK OF THE NATION. I'm Neal Conan in Columbus, Ohio. Every 15 minutes, someone in this country commits suicide. For each who succeeds, 11 others attempt to kill themselves, and of course many, many more think about it. Friends, family, mental health professionals and others play a part in trying to prevent situations from reaching a crisis, but once one develops, there are also people on the front line of suicide prevention, counselors and volunteers who answer hotlines, law enforcement specialists who reach out to people on the ledge, military officers who train soldiers how to spot suicidal behaviors.
If that's you, call and tell us your story. What works? Our phone number, 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website. That's at npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION. Later in the program, no woman can have it all. Debora Spar, the president of Barnard College, argues the only solution for the women's problem is to recognize the quest for perfection is a myth.
But first, stopping suicide. And we begin with Randall Raybon, a licensed professional counselor and clinical supervisor of Access Helpline with the D.C. Department of Mental Health. They're also part of a network of call centers all over the country that make up the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline. And he joins us today in Studio 3A. Nice to have you on TALK OF THE NATION.
RANDALL RAYBON: Thank you, Neal.
CONAN: And I wonder, I know you've answered calls for 10 years, is there one that sticks out, the one you will always remember?
RAYBON: Probably the most dramatic one we had, 2 a.m. one morning my colleague got a call from someone with a cell phone in Arkansas. And why they called our number I don't know because it was a local number at that time. He was sitting on the tracks. He knew when the next train was coming. It was I think at 2:47. He called us, and he didn't want to live. He wanted someone to talk to.
He wouldn't give us much information. So while my colleague was pulling details from him, I was frantically calling the Arkansas state troopers to try to locate the nearest help to him, and we did get a cruiser to go out and got to him about three minutes before the train was set to arrive.
CONAN: That's, as you suggest, pretty dramatic. Do you tend to remember successes like that, or do you carry the failures with you?
RAYBON: I tend to remember the successes. I try not to dwell on the failures. And thankfully I've never had someone that I directly spoke with commit suicide, or at least I haven't been informed of that.
I understand you decided to get into this line of work in part because of a tragedy in your own family.
Yeah, well, I had always wanted to do something in psychology, and I was in a counseling psychology program, doctoral program in Texas and trying to decide what I wanted to, had just been advanced to candidacy, and a cousin of mine committed suicide. You know, it was a shock because he had everything going for him.
You know, he was - he came from a well-to-do family, a loving family, had a nice girlfriend. He had dropped out of college, but he was back in college and seemed to be doing well. But he was in counseling and on meds, but he still decided to take his own life.
CONAN: And afterwards, everybody wants to know why. And I can still hear that question in the way you describe it.
RAYBON: Thankfully, it was actually one of the more thoughtful suicides, if you can use that term. He wrote a very detailed note. He was very good about having good last contacts at Thanksgiving with family and friends. He shot himself in the bathtub so that he wouldn't cause a mess for people to clean up. And the note explained that at age 22, he was realizing that he was not going to have the life that he grew up in.
He was not going to have the memberships to exclusive country clubs or the nice cars that his dad had, or he didn't think it was going to happen, and if he couldn't have that life, better not to live at all.
CONAN: Wow, that's - yeah. As - when you answer a call, what do you say first?
RAYBON: Well, Suicide Lifeline, this is Randy. How can I help you?
CONAN: And what kind of information - you listen, I assume.
RAYBON: Yes, I listen. My job is definitely much more to listen than to speak.
CONAN: Are there kinds of details that you're trying to draw out?
RAYBON: I'm trying to draw out what the hurt is, you know, what pain is there because most people who are suicidal, they do it because they're in some sort of psychic distress. And so what's the pain, how can we make it better?
CONAN: Do you try to find a location?
RAYBON: Always try to find a location, always try to get contact information, always try to assess if there's a specific plan that they're thinking about, and do they have means to complete the suicide.
CONAN: Where are they on the spectrum of being prepared to actually carry out their suicidal thoughts?
RAYBON: Most people just have a general thought that they don't want to live, that they want the pain to stop, don't want to live. Not every caller has a specific plan. Some do. Some call with very specific plans, and the more specific the plan, the more I worry about them.
CONAN: And every situation, I understand, is different, but there must be themes running through this: stop the pain.
RAYBON: Well, stop the pain, social isolation. You know, people are lonely. They're hurting, you know, they want to reach out. And, you know, I always am pleased when they do reach out. I've been trying to think about what calls are the worst for me. The calls that are worst for me are the ones that I don't get.
The people that are calling, at least part of them wants to live, and I want to hear about that part.
CONAN: We're talking with Randy Raybon, clinical supervisor of the Access Helpline with the D.C. Department of Mental Health. We want to hear from those of you who are also on the end of the phone when people call hotlines to talk about plans to commit suicide. We want to hear from those of you who are reaching out to those on the ledge, 800-989-8255. Email us, talk@npr.org.
And let's see if we can get a caller in, and we'll start with Don(ph), and Don's with us from Pensacola.
DON: Yes, thank you very much. I used to be a volunteer counselor in a crisis hotline, and one particular individual stands out in my mind. I was about ready to get off my volunteer three-hour shift, and something told me to pick up the phone. It was about 10 minutes until I was about to leave, and I picked up the phone.
There was a man that wanted to commit suicide, and we talked, and we talked, and we talked. Three hours later, I finally said: Look, I'm not going to give you permission to do this. So you're going to go without my permission. I said: Secondly, I don't get paid for this. He said yeah, you do. And I said no, I don't. He says you don't care about us, you get your paycheck. And I said no, I volunteer.
And he said: Why do you do that? He said you just sat here and talked to me for nothing, for free? I said: I didn't talk to you for nothing. I said I talked to you because I care about you. He said: But you don't know me. I said: You're a member of our community. You're important to us. He said yeah, but I don't want to be here.
I said hey, there's sometimes when none of us want to be here, but we just got to pull together. We wound up talking and laughing, and about an hour later, he said: Man, thanks. I said hey, if you ever want to be a volunteer, this is how you do it. And he said you know, I might do that.
CONAN: That's a great story, Don. Did it work out? Did he come in and volunteer? Do you know?
DON: I don't know. I don't know.
CONAN: I'd like to think so, though.
DON: I like to think so. I like to think that at least that night he had somebody that really gave a damn about him. And that was all it took for him to say OK, I'm going to make it through another night.
CONAN: Thanks very much for the call, Don, appreciate it.
DON: Thank you very much.
CONAN: And Randy Raybon, as we listen to that story, one thing spoke to me, came out of it, the volunteer. Are most of the people who are manning the lines volunteers?
RAYBON: At my site, no, they're all paid staff. I definitely worked at other call centers where there are volunteers and paid staff. In general, though, you probably have more volunteers out there than paid staff.
CONAN: And what kind of training do they get?
RAYBON: For our staff there's two-day training through the Suicide Prevention Lifeline, as well as a 40-hour online workshop that we can do. And there's, you know, ongoing supervision, as well.
CONAN: And I wonder, is there - we've heard about some of the dos, are there some don'ts? Are there things you're told never to say?
RAYBON: Well, you don't want to be judgmental. You don't want to belittle the caller's problems. Going back to my cousin David, I vehemently disagree with his decision to kill himself, but that was his - that was his decision, and if I had said well, that's silly, you want to kill yourself because you can't join the right country club, that would have been amiss. You want to take the caller's concerns very seriously.
CONAN: And as you're trying to do that, how do you know when to end the call?
RAYBON: If I can get people to laugh, that's usually a good ending point. The other good ending point is if you have a good solid plan about what the next step is to keep them safe, get them through the night, get them linked to services beyond that call.
And sometimes I just say: Is this a good time to end?
CONAN: We're talking with people on the front line of suicide prevention: counselors, volunteers, military officers, law enforcement specialists. We'll talk with an officer from San Francisco in a moment. If you do this work, too, call and tell us your story, 800-989-8255. What works? Email us, talk@npr.org. Stay with us. I'm Neal Conan. It's the TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News.
CONAN: This is TALK OF THE NATION from NPR News. I'm Neal Conan in Columbus, Ohio, at the studios of member station WOSU. More than 2,000 people call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline every day by that organization's count. Roughly one in five route themselves to the Veterans Crisis Line, that hotline staffed 24 hours a day. We've posted a link to their phone number at our website. Just go to npr.org.
We've talked before on this program about the crisis of suicide. Today we're talking with some of those on the front lines of suicide prevention. If that's you, call and tell us your story. What works? 800-989-8255. Email talk@npr.org. You can also join the conversation on our website. Again that's npr.org. Click on TALK OF THE NATION.
Our guest is Randall Raybon, clinical supervisor at the Access Helpline with the D.C. Department of Mental Health. Some people in crisis pick up a phone and reach out to a help line like Randy's. Others don't. sometimes interventions happen when a passerby sees someone on a bridge or on a ledge and calls the police.
Officer Kevin Martin is with the San Francisco Police Department's Hostage Crisis Negotiation Team. He answers those calls and joins us now from member station KQED. Nice to have you on TALK OF THE NATION today.
KEVIN MARTIN: Good afternoon, thank you for having me.
CONAN: And when we think of San Francisco and suicide, we can't help but think of the Golden Gate Bridge, which has unfortunately been the site of too many. What's the first thing you do when you get a call about a possible jumper?
MARTIN: Well, there's a lot of things that cross your mind, first where the call is, how to get there, you know, safely and expeditiously. And while you're en route, you're, you know, going through a mental checklist of things that you would want to consider saying and trying to get information.
Trying to get information is very, very important so you have a base or a ground to work from. Sometimes that can be very difficult. Other times in the course of, you know, casual conversation, you ask an individual, you know, what is it that happened today to bring you here right now.
CONAN: And unlike a phone hotline, where at least the person in crisis is reaching out to somebody, it's the other way around when you're called in, right?
MARTIN: Yeah, most of our contacts are face-to-face. And that can be a double-edged sword. One is that you always want to, you know, proffer the human contact. You want to make that, you know, very evident through the thoughtful words you use and your actions.
But you're also wearing a uniform, and sometimes that can be a little daunting for a person in crisis, that the person who's coming to help is a police officer, and, you know, quite often people equate police officers, you know, in situations like this with arrest or going to jail.
And we do have to spend some time, you know, going through conversations explaining to somebody you haven't done anything wrong. You haven't broken any laws. We're just here to help you and to get you the resources and the services you need to make what you're going through easier to deal with.
CONAN: And what tends to work? People on the ledge, they're clearly right there.
MARTIN: Yeah, it's pretty intense. I've been doing this for the better part of 12 years now, and I've responded to about 25 jumpers, at least. And it depends on what the situation is, who the person is. If they're on drugs or under the influence of drugs or alcohol, that can make the situation more difficult to try to reach somebody in terms of a sensible manner.
Other times, people are on speed, methamphetamine, and that is a very, very difficult encounter because you have to keep bringing the person back onto point, and they quite often go on tangents, and that makes it, you know, difficult to center the conversation to a point of what can we do to help you, and please consider coming back a little bit closer.
CONAN: Coming back a little closer, do you sometimes try to grab them and bring them back in physically?
MARTIN: Boy, that's a real, real tough situation. We try not to do that because we do not want to put ourselves in harm's way. And other times, rash actions or quick movements can startle people, and you can end up in a tragic accident. But certainly there are times where if the situation allows, and you can divert someone's attention, you know, you might consider extracting somebody from a certain position or a certain situation that they're in.
CONAN: And I wonder, is it considered ethical to tell people lies, anything from oh, it's going to be all right to your mother's coming to see you?
MARTIN: Well, credibility is something that's incredibly important, and you have to establish that, you know, in the very beginning. Being honest, you don't lie because later on if they come through this, and they find out that you lie, next time they're in a crisis situation, if someone, you know, comes to help them out, they already have - they're behind the eight ball because they've already had a bad experience.
And the first thing, you know, they might say to a responding individual is I don't trust you, you people lied to me last time, you know, just go away, I don't want to talk to you. And of course that makes a difficult situation even more severe.
CONAN: And let me ask you the same question I asked Randy Raybon before, and that is: Do you tend to remember the successes, or do you tend to remember those who got away?
MARTIN: It's interesting, I was very intrigued by your other guest's response. And I tend to remember the ones that I have not been able to bring back to safety. And I think part of that is Monday morning quarterbacking. You question, you know, what could I have done better, what could I have said. You always relish the successes.
But you're - I tend to be a little bit more mindful of those that I was not able to bring back over to the other side.
CONAN: Are there procedures to give officers who are in your situation counseling in those situations?
MARTIN: We go through a lot of training. We initially go through a 40-hour course, instructed by the FBI. We also have a lot of in-service training, and we talk amongst each other a lot. There's a lot of seminars. But in terms of protocol and procedure, what you want to do is respond, respond safely, assess the situation and try to develop some information, try to find out something about the individual's background, if they have a criminal past, who their associates are, if they have a family.
Sometimes that can work in the negative. If someone's, you know, very upset because of a family situation, and you start talking about members of their family, that can, you know, make a situation even more difficult to go through. So asking questions and trying to develop information early on is very important.
CONAN: Randy Raybon, I wonder if you have a question for Officer Martin.
RAYBON: Well, a comment. I think the - about being honest with callers and finding things out about them - pardon me - finding things about them, you have to have just a general compassion for human beings in general, and you have to find that connection with the person that you're dealing with either in person or on the phone that makes them real and lovable.
CONAN: All right, let's get another caller in on the conversation. This is Therese(ph), Therese, how is it pronounced there in Lansing?
THERESE: It's Therese.
CONAN: Go ahead, please.
THERESE: I just wanted to say that I was a volunteer on a call-in program in - I'm sorry, I'm a little flustered. Anyway, a man called in one night and said that he couldn't give me his name, that he was a prominent man in the community and was very troubled and talked to me for quite a while.
CONAN: I'm sorry, we seem to have lost the line. I think I've made a mistake. I apologize, Therese. Call back in if you can. Let's see if we can go instead to this is Geneva(ph), Geneva with us from Louisville.
GENEVA: Hi, this is Geneva.
CONAN: Hi, go ahead please.
GENEVA: Yes, I am the clinical supervisor of the Hope Now Hotline in Louisville. We're also a part of the National Lifeline Network. And what I wanted to say was that how very much we appreciate shows like this that will put this topic out there, because one thing we found with suicide prevention that's critically important is just an awareness that resources exist that people can turn to for help, and people often don't realize that these hotlines are there.
And one thing we like to do in our community is encourage people to make that phone call to us before they get to the point where they're thinking that they want to die, that hotlines can help you out when things are just beginning to feel bad and to feel out of hand. And we really encourage that awareness that people know that we're out there and that we can help.
CONAN: Randy Raybon, that's an important point. Ultimately, you don't - you want to go out of business, but ultimately you want to get those people calling other people earlier in the process.
RAYBON: Indeed. Indeed you do. Pardon me. I was distracted by a phone. You do want to get people early on in the process. I would prefer not to have people on the edge when they're calling. It's fine if they are. Call anytime. But let's try to cut things off at the pass and solve problems early rather than later.
CONAN: And, Officer Martin, one of the things I'm sure you do is, when you do bring somebody back in, refer them to get some help that'll keep them from going out on the ledge right on to the bridge.
MARTIN: Yes. Certainly that is the goal, to bring them back and to try to make them whole. What we usually do is once we're able to make contact and convince somebody to come back, to come over to the other side, so to speak, is to take them to a mental health facility where they're able to talk to health care, you know, mental health care professionals.
What we do is we put them on what we call a 5150 Welfare and Institution hold, which is usually a 72-hour psych evaluation for people who are a danger to themselves or a danger to others. Quite often they're not there for the full 72 hours, but it's at least a start for people to get back on their meds, to try to talk to somebody in a state of clarity, to find out, you know, what is, you know, the problem, what is bothering this individual, what's pushing them to the point of taking their life.
CONAN: Hmm. Geneva, thanks very much for the call.
GENEVA: Thank you.
CONAN: We're talking with Officer Kevin Martin of the San Francisco Police Department's Hostage/Crisis Negotiation Team. Also with us is Randy Raybon, the clinical supervisor of the Access Helpline with the D.C. Department of Mental Health. We're talking with those on the frontlines of suicide prevention. You're listening to TALK OF THE NATION coming to you from NPR News.
And let's go next to - this is Joe(ph). Joe is with us from Sacramento. You're on the air. Go ahead, Joe.
JOE: Hi. Yes. I wanted to talk about - I had an officemate of five years who took his life after we worked together doing suicide prevention. And we worked in a hospital setting, and so we had a whole group of psychiatrists and psychologists and therapists who really, you know, weren't able to anticipate that in him. He saw - you know, he knew what to keep to himself and so on and so forth.
And so, you know, I just wanted to get out the message that people who are around somebody who commits suicide, that even the most highly trained people can, you know, not see it coming necessarily and that, you know, feeling, you know, guilt feelings about that, while natural, you know, sometimes you just can't prevent it. And the other thing I want to add is that in the United States, 80 percent of all suicides are committed by men.
CONAN: Hmm. I wonder, Randy Raybon, I had not heard that statistic about how heavily male suicides are. But, yes, even those who man the hotlines themselves are not immune.
RAYBON: Indeed, indeed. I've had certainly colleagues that have had mental health issues and had to leave work. And I've had colleagues that have called me personally in the middle of the night, intoxicated and suicidal. It can be a rough business. You do need to make sure that you're seeking proper peer support if it becomes overwhelming. You need to be aware of compassion fatigue and take a break, do something else.
CONAN: Officer Martin, you talked about Monday morning quarterbacking. Sometimes that can turn to guilt too.
MARTIN: That's a great point that, you know, the caller just brought up. You know, in 2010, the San Francisco Police Department suffered the loss of three officers who committed suicide and/or I think at least one or two others that had attempted suicide. And that's a whole different dynamic unto itself because of all the problems involved, especially someone in crisis who has access to weapons. That really raises the stakes, you know, considerably higher.
But in terms of Monday morning quarterbacking, I think that's a natural reaction. I think that's something that you do to just check yourself and to not to critique yourself or to make yourself feel bad, but just to question if there was something that could have been done differently or - and then sometimes you have absolutely no control.
The fact of the matter is if a person is going to commit suicide, they're going to do it, and quite often they're not going to seek help through a talk line or a counseling service or through, you know, first responders. But those who do call that are considering suicide, although they may be considering it, there's hope and there's a feeling that they don't necessarily want to, and they're reaching out to make contact for reassurances that what they're going through is difficult but it's not so extreme that it can't be worked through.
And sometimes people just need other perspectives and from people that they don't necessarily know. And that's why they - the hotlines for suicide prevention are so important throughout the country because sometimes it's easy to talk to somebody that you don't know as opposed to somebody who does, who knows your history, and it can make a situation a little bit more difficult.
CONAN: I wonder the other thing that Randy Raybon said, Officer Martin, don't be judgmental. I assume you try not to be judgmental too.
MARTIN: Absolutely not. Absolutely not.
CONAN: Joe, thanks very much for the phone call. Joe was on the line with us from Sacramento. Officer Kevin Martin joins us from KQAD, our member station in San Francisco. He's with the San Francisco Police Department's hostage crisis negotiation team. And our thanks as well to Randy Raybon, the clinical supervisor of the Access Helpline with the D.C. Department of Mental Health. Coming up - let's see. Coming up - there we go - Debora Spar, the president of Barnard College, argued that, in a recent piece, that women face a double whammy of impossible expectations and should stop trying to be perfect. She'll join us. Stay with us. I'm Neal Conan, TALK OF THE NATION, NPR News. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.