text:
Q: OR condition for optional binding? I've seen in Swift 3.1 documentation that you can include several optional bindings in an if statement separated by commas, and that it behaves like an AND operator.
Let's say that I have two optional properties and I'd like to check which of them (or both) is/are not nil, unwrap the non-nil one(s), and then execute a block of code. Using this:
if let = property1, let = property2 {
   // Some task to do with unwrapped property
}

only executes the if statement block if both properties are unwrapped (AND condition). But for me, it would be enough to have at least one of those properties being non-nil to execute the code in the if statement block (OR condition). But if I do like this:
if property1 != nil || property2 != nil {
   // Some task to do with non-nil property
}

But then I don't have the unwrapped value of the non-nil property. I'd like to have the unwrapped value available in the if statement block of code to avoid optional chaining there.
Which would be the best practice and most compact way to achieve this?

A: How about this.
if let property = property1 ?? property2 {
    // non nil property (any one of the two)
}

if property1 and property2 both have values property1 gets the precedence.

A: Unfortunately I don't think this is possible in a single line (like if let x = y || let z = a {}). Logically it wouldn't make sense, because you would end up in a state where both variables would remain optional (if either is unwrapped, you don't know which is unwrapped or if both are). I think you'll need to take some other approach to this problem. I think the simplest form would be something like
if let unwrappedProperty1 = property1 {
    handleProperty(unwrappedProperty1)
} else if let unwrappedProperty2 = property2 {
    handleProperty(unwrappedProperty2)
}

or you could do something like
if let unwrappedProperty = property1 ?? property2 {
    handleProperty(unwrappedProperty)
}

which would give priority to property1


text:
Черёмуха  — деревня в Килемарском районе Республики Марий Эл. Входит в состав Юксарского сельского поселения.

География
Находится в западной части республики Марий Эл на расстоянии приблизительно 53 км по прямой на юг от районного центра посёлка Килемары.

История
Образована как выселок в 1925 году переселенцами из деревни Ермучаш. В 1928 году в 8 хозяйствах проживали 37 человек, в 1938 году 19 дворов и 110. В 1948 году 29 хозяйств, в 1952 году — 19. В 1959 году проживали 105 человек. В советское время работали колхоз имени Пушкина и совхоз «Ардинский».

Население
Население составляло 49 человек (мари 92 %) в 2002 году, 35 в 2010.

Примечания

Населённые пункты Килемарского района

redpajama_set_name: RedPajamaWikipedia


Project based learning experiences, covers Science, Technology, Engineering, Art, Math and even Psychology!
TrueInspire Education Foundation is a non-profit organisation with a mission to inspire and develop local community who are intellectually engaged, intrinsically motivated and globally aware. We involve, instruct and inspire each other to learn, lead and succeed.
Join us on WeChat for updates on new topics, books, upcoming events and more!


text:
class Admin::MembersController < Admin::AdminController
  before_filter { |controller| controller.send(:find_containing_group) if controller.request.parameters['group_id'] }
  before_filter :find_member, :except => [:new, :index, :admin_actions, :create, :search, :join, :host_index, :spammer_termination_form, :terminate_spammers]
  before_filter :find_hostable, :only => [:host_index, :host, :unhost]
  layout 'admin'

  # GET /admin/members
  # GET /admin/groups/1/members
  # GET /admin/groups/1/members/index.js
  def index
    if @parent
      @members = @parent.members.paginate(:all, pagination_params)
    else
      @members = Member.paginate(:all, pagination_params)
    end

    respond_to do |format|
      format.html # index.html.erb
      format.js do
        render :inline => members_to_json(@members)
      end
    end
  end

  # GET/admin/members/search
  def search
    params[:id] = params[:q] if params[:q] # Autocomplete plugin uses q as a param but we want id
    @results = []
    @results = Member.search(params[:id])  unless empty_query?
    respond_to do |format|
      format.js do
        render :json => @results.map {|x| "#{x.name}|#{x.email}|#{x.id}" }.compact.join("\n").to_json
      end
    end
  end

  def admin_actions
  end

  # GET /admin/members/
  #
  def spammer_termination_form
  end

  def terminate_spammers
    spammer_ids = params[:ids].split(",")
    @spammers = Member.find(:all, :conditions => ["id in (?)", spammer_ids])
    @hidden_stories = []
    @recalc_stories = []
    @other_spammers = []
    @rejected_terminations = []
    @spammers.each { |m|
      if m.validation_level >= SocialNewsConfig["min_trusted_member_validation_level"].to_i
        @rejected_terminations << m
        next
      end

        # mark member deleted
        # add members ip address to spammer ip addresses
        # hide all submitted stories
        # queue all reviewed stories for re-processing
      old_status = m.status
      m.update_attributes({:status => Member::TERMINATED, :edit_notes => (m.edit_notes || "") + "<br/>Terminated by #{current_member.name} @ #{Time.now.strftime("%Y/%m/%d")}"})
      Story.find_all_by_submitted_by_id(m.id).each { |s| s.update_attribute(:status, Story::HIDE); @hidden_stories << s }
      m.reviews.each { |r|
        rstory = r.story
        # Just recording list of recalced stories because the member after save callback takes care of queuing stories for recalc.
        @recalc_stories << rstory if !r.hidden? && r.include_rating? && rstory.is_public?
      }

        # Find other members (with guest / member status) that share their IP with this spammer
      if m.http_x_real_ip
        # Don't increment counter if member had already been deleted
        if old_status != Member::TERMINATED
          ip = SpammerIp.find_or_create_by_ip(m.http_x_real_ip)
          ip.spammer_count = ip.spammer_count ? ip.spammer_count + 1 : 1
          ip.save!
        end
        @other_spammers += Member.find(:all,
                                       :include => [:member_attributes, :slugs],
                                       :joins => "JOIN member_attributes ON member_attributes.member_id=members.id AND member_attributes.name='http_x_real_ip' AND member_attributes.value = '#{m.http_x_real_ip}'",
                                       :conditions => ["status in (?)", [Member::MEMBER, Member::GUEST]])
      end
    }
    @other_spammers.uniq!
    @other_spammers.reject! { |s| s.status == Member::TERMINATED }
    @recalc_stories.uniq!
  end

  # GET /admin/members/reinvite
#  def reinvite
#  end

  # POST /admin/members/reinvite
#  def send_reinvites
#  end

  # GET /admin/members/new
  # GET /admin/groups/1/members/new
  def new
    @member = Member.new
  end

  # POST /admin/members/
  def create
  end

  # GET /admin/members/1/edit
  # GET /admin/groups/1/members/1/edit
  def edit
  end

  # PUT /admin/members/1
  # PUT /admin/groups/1/members/1
  def update
  end

  # DELETE /admin/members/1
  def destroy
  end

  # POST /admin/groups/1/members/join
  def join
    @member = Member.find(params[:id])
    if @group.add_member(@member)
      flash[:notice] = "The member has joined the group."
    else
      flash[:error] = "The member could not join the group."
    end
    respond_to do |format|
      format.html { redirect_to(admin_group_members_path(@group)) }
      format.js do
        render :nothing => true, :status => '406' and return if flash.has_key?(:error)
        render :nothing => true, :status => '200' and return if flash.has_key?(:notice)
      end
    end
  rescue ActiveRecord::RecordNotFound => e
    flash[:error] = e.message
    respond_to do |format|
      format.html { redirect_to(admin_group_members_path(@group)) }
      format.js { render :nothing => true, :status => '500'}
    end
  end

  # DELETE /admin/groups/1/members/1/leave
  def leave
    if @group.members.delete(@member)
      flash[:notice] = "The member has been removed from the group"
    else
      flash[:error] = "The member could not be removed from the group."
    end

    respond_to do |format|
      format.html { redirect_to(admin_group_members_path(@group))}
      format.js { render :inline => members_to_json(@group.members) }
    end
  end

  # POST /admin/members/hosts/:hostable_type/:hostable_id/join.:format
  def host
    @member = Member.find(params[:id])

    # Topics & Subjects have local-site specific hosts
    ls = ["subject", "topic"].include?(params[:hostable_type]) ? @local_site : nil
    if @hostable.add_host(@member, ls)
      flash[:notice] = "#{@hostable.name} is now hosted by #{@member.name}"
    else
      flash[:error] = "#{@hostable.name} can not be hosted by #{@member.name}"
    end
    respond_to do |format|
      format.js do
        render :nothing => true, :status => '406' and return if flash.has_key?(:error)
        render :nothing => true, :status => '200' and return if flash.has_key?(:notice)
      end
    end
  end

  # DELETE /admin/members/hosts/:hostable_type/:hostable_id/:id/leave.:format
  def unhost
    # Topics & Subjects have local-site specific hosts
    ls = ["subject", "topic"].include?(params[:hostable_type]) ? @local_site : nil
    if @hostable.remove_host(@member, ls)
      flash[:notice] = "#{@member.name} is no longer a host of #{ls.name if ls} #{@hostable.name}"
    else
      flash[:error] = "Could not remove #{@member.name} as a host of #{ls.name if ls} #{@hostable.name}"
    end
    respond_to do |format|
      format.html { redirect_to(admin_path)}
      format.js { render :inline => members_to_json(@hostable.hosts(@local_site)) }
    end
  end

  # GET /admin/members/hosts/:hostable_type/:hostable_id.:format
  def host_index
    respond_to do |format|
      format.js { render :inline => members_to_json(@hostable.hosts(@local_site)) }
    end
  end

  protected

    def find_member
      @member = @group.members.find(params[:id]) if @group
      @member = Member.find(params[:id])
    rescue ActiveRecord::RecordNotFound => e
      flash[:error] = e.message
      if @group
        redirect_to(admin_group_members_path(@group))
      else
        redirect_to(admin_members_path)
      end
    end

    def find_hostable
      hostable_class = self.class.const_get(params[:hostable_type].camelize)
      @hostable = hostable_class.find(params[:hostable_id])
    # rescue NameError, ActiveRecord::RecordNotFound
    end

  private

    def members_to_json(members)
      members.map {|x| Hash['login', x.login,'name', x.name, 'email', x.email, 'id', x.id] }.to_json
    end

end

redpajama_set_name: RedPajamaGithub


Wonderful 100 year old painting. Measures approx 27 x 17. The item "Antique Primitive Folk Art black cat puppies painting dated 1919 john richmond" is in sale since Friday, January 18, 2019. This item is in the category "Art\Paintings". The seller is "fmi2001″ and is located in Portland, Maine. This item can be shipped worldwide.
Based on a now obscure Kellogg & Thayer print published around 1846, this couldnt have been painted long after. Early proportions and great ink depth. Original paper, because of tears and loss, was mounted to a THICK mat board some time in the 1920s. To do this properly, invest in the removal of the pups from the acidic board. For now, they have been matted and backed with 4 ply museum rag to minimize any further toning. Thin maple frame is likely original or close to it in date. Sight size measures 8.5 x 11, including frame 12 x 15. Very pleased to offer this one, relics like this just dont come up anymore. The item "Antique c1850 Primitive Naive Folk Art PUPPIES Dogs Watercolor Painting" is in sale since Thursday, May 31, 2018. This item is in the category "Art\Paintings". The seller is "rarebooksandpaper" and is located in Irwin, Pennsylvania. This item can be shipped to United States.
Wonderful 19th century American folk art oil painting on board depicting a group of collie dogs peering over a fence. The mother collie is of to the right of the painting and her puppies are beside her. The painting is very sweat and charming the dogs are full of life and personality. The painting measures 20″w x 16″h and is in good condition. Does have some roughness around the very edge of the painting that will be unnoticeable once framed but is fine just the way it is. There are also some light scuffs and a nick on the painted surface very small and minor. Please check out my other listings of antiques and folk art. Thank you for looking. The item "Very Nice Antique American Folk Art Collie Dog And Puppies Puppy Oil Painting" is in sale since Saturday, December 03, 2016. This item is in the category "Art\Art from Dealers & Resellers\Folk Art & Primitives". The seller is "fineantiques68″ and is located in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. This item can be shipped worldwide.


Events By Mitra is offering a free bridal bouquet (value of $150-$200) to new customers with any booking over $3000 (excluding taxes) just for mentioning Party Bravo!
Whether a wedding, a corporate gathering or a birthday party, EventsByMitra will create an unique event that will be remembered and cherished. From design and decor to complete event management, EventsByMitra will create a distinctive occasion fitting your needs and wishes, no matter how big or small.
Regardless of whether you have a clear idea of what you want or need some help making a choice, EventsByMitra will work with you to create your dream flowers and décor for your special event. With years of experience in floral design and event planning, we have worked on numerous events of all sizes and budgets.
EventsByMitra provides a free consultation at a location of your choice to discuss in depth your event ideas and styles in order to come up with a perfect fit for your personality, function, and finanaces.


The aim of the wooden and stone carving class is to offer college students fundamental information and understanding of the carving process, tools and materials that are essential to make sculpture; to make them conversant in the sculptural thought"—three-dimensional form, which makes sculpture completely different from the other types of artwork-making; to introduce points akin to: proportions, weight, mass, rhythm, among others. Small churches in lots of communities are decorated with brightly colored nativity scenes carved from wood. Professional sculptors as well as people artists had lengthy been interested in wood's natural beauty. Objects made of wooden are ceaselessly completed with a layer of wax, which protects the wood and offers a tender lustrous sheen. Oil also imparts a sheen to the wooden which, by reflecting gentle, helps the observer 'learn' the shape. Leaf Man continues to practise leaf carving even though he is pursuing his studies in Australia on the momentLua feels that he made a very good determination to use leaves as a medium for his paintings because it conveys a powerful message. Along with the Artwork College students League of New York, Mr. Lerman teaches drawing and sculpture at the New York Academy of Artwork and the New York Studio College, and he's a visiting professor on the Vermont Studio Center.
Direct carvers rejected this technique, as an alternative choosing to work spontaneously, reducing instantly into stone and wooden and preserving the concord between those supplies and the resulting sculpted varieties. Store from a wide variety of distributors for high-quality art work, home decorating gadgets, folks artwork, images, jewelry, sporting items or carving and artwork supplies.
Bangkok, Thailand: It's a royal tradition that has proved bountiful via the ages and one that Thailand's fruit carvers are determined to maintain alive – even as younger folks peel away from the distinctive art kind. Some followers also credit score Japan as the root of the art of fruit and vegetable carving, called Mukimono in Japanese. Individuals appear to like to have a look at pictures of vegetables which have been carved into artistic shapes.
A particularly charming example is a small carving of candied jujube dates and peanuts created from brown chalcedony ( 02.18.895 ). The craftsman has cleverly adapted the design of the sculpture to the original form and colours of the stone. Many of those artists noticed nature as a collaborator, choosing supplies with distinct bodily properties—equivalent to veins in stone or burls in wooden—and allowing these parts to counsel designs and shapes. Others have discovered their artwork within the conventional method via palms-on experience and working with family members and other artists. Though there are eight unique Aboriginal teams within the NWT, similar themes seem in art throughout these cultures. Any wood might be carved but all of them have completely different qualities and characteristics.
Every effort has been made to accurately determine the rights standing of works and their photos. Coming from a protracted line of master lapidaries, gem carving is in his blood, and living in Idar-Oberstein, Germany, Europe's leading gem heart, Pauly has access to the world's best materials. On November 12th, YouTuber Vilas Lakkabathini uploaded another time lapse carving video featuring footage of a man recreating Ghetti's hanging key graphite sculpture (shown below, proper). Leaf Man believes that leaf carving conveys a robust message to create consciousness about NatureEven although he's now based mostly in Australia, leaf carving continues to be a part of Lua and he's consistently impressed.


text:
Kangana Ranaut's sister files 'assault, exploitation' complaint against Aditya Pancholi, he files counter complaint
Rangoli Chandel actor Kangana Ranaut's sister, has filed an application before the Versova police station, stating her sister was exploited and abused by actor Aditya Pancholi at least a decade ago. Pancholi, in turn, has filed a counter application in the same police station, claiming Ranaut's lawyer threatened to file a rape case against him.
"We have asked both of them to record their statements. We will conduct an inquiry before registering an FIR," said a senior officer from the police station.
Ranaut, through several interviews in 2017, accused Pancholi of physically and sexually abusing her when she was new to the film industry. She alleged he kept her confined to the house and she had to escape by jumping off the first-floor window. After the allegations, Pancholi filed a defamation case against Ranaut.
Pancholi, on Tuesday, said: "Reacting to the defamation case, Kangana, Rangoli and their lawyer, Rizwan Siddique, decided to file the complaint. Siddique even threatened me with a rape case on January 6, 2019."
Pancholi claimed he had a number of videos and phone recordings that purportedly show Siddique threatening him. His statement was recorded on Sunday. "I submitted my application with the police against Siddique, Kangana and Rangoli earlier this month. I have submitted the video in the police station and court. Rape is the worst kind of crime that can happen [to any woman]," he said.
According to sources, Rangoli, in her complaint filed last month, stated that Pancholi's wife, actor Zarina Wahab, was also in the know of the incidents between Ranaut and Pancholi.
When approached for a comment, Siddique said the complaint submitted by them at Versova police station was confidential and he could not speak about it. Rangoli said, "I don't want to talk about the complaint right now."
Shehroz Sabzwari to star alongside Meera's sister Shaista Abbas in upcoming drama serial Salman Khan to launch Katrina Kaif's sister Isabelle Kaif opposite Sooraj Pancholi Kangana Ranaut and Ayesha Shroff's names pop up in the CDR case Sania Mirza's sister Anam Mirza, Mohammad Azharuddin's son Asad to get married this year?
Tags: Aditya Pancholi, assault, exploitation, Kangana-Ranaut, sister

redpajama_set_name: RedPajamaCommonCrawl


A cauldron of instrumental art rock, solo pieces, and audio exploration -- music for your trip to Mars.
March Forth was conceived as a tribute to my dad, who was born on March 4th. The music ranges from quiet solo acoustic guitar pieces to louder art rock with electronic elements, audio manipulations and explorations, and reworkings of a couple of very old songs.
The old songs might seem out of place, but are in fact, well chosen. Fur Elise is a song my dad often played on the piano when I was a child. In studying the piece prior to recording it, I discovered that it is also a fine piece of music played in reverse, which was explored in the second half of the track.
I remember hearing When Johnny Comes Marching Home (the best-known song of the Civil War era) often when we visited Civil War battlefields near and far while living in Virginia in the 1970s. We eventually visited almost all of them.
An aim of this project was to emphasize the guitar, without creating a guitar-focused recording. To this end, many different textures were used to support the guitar, and the guitar was sometimes used in unconventional ways. Another aim was to experiment with the audio, which was done at every turn.
Guitarist with the group Trance Lucid, Dave Halverson has been making some great instrumental guitar fusion music for the past ten years. He also has a solo career, a fact made clear with his 2007 solo CD March Forth. Halverson's sixteen track CD ranges from quiet solo guitar pieces to innovative art-rock sounds similar to some of recent King Crimson's more atmospheric works. The title track is an excellent example of Halverson's unique approach to the guitar. Halverson describes his music as unconventional, but his tasty arrangements and inventive electric guitar work are always captivating and imaginative.


Implementation of Sales process & Service delivery process through Zonal/Area Team for ASC and Synergy locations in their respective territory.
Implementation of CIP & compliance for Sales & Service Infrastructure, as per guideline.
Coordinate with Zonal / Area team for process & systems Training in their respective set ups.
Coordinate with Zonal / Area Team for successful implementation of Sales & Service Policies.
Provide support to Zonal team / Area Team for resolution of ASC and Synergy's concerns & improve Network Satisfaction.
Have insight of measuring CSI, SSI.
Ensure Process rollout at all ASC and Synergies.
Implement ASC & Synergy performance audit and rewards program .
Deploy Network infra norms -Corporate Identity Standards.
Complete planning, deployment & sustaining the CRM initiatives.
Creating CRM schemes for the different value segment of the customers.


text:
Dependency Changes
About API and leakage
Naming, LDAP and a little bit of...
James R. Perkins
Thursday, 17 October 2013 Thu, 17 Oct '13
Debugging a TCK issue I found that the client jars that shade in their dependencies were also pulling in the logmanager transitively from a couple dependencies. This led to look at what else was coming in transitively and realized, as we probably already know, it goes deep. I started making some changes [1] after talking to David (which I may have misunderstood so don't blame him :)) to exclude dependencies for WildFly maven modules. I'm not really close to be done as it seems this will take quite a while. The question is do we even want to exclude dependencies like this? If I continued and did a PR would it be accepted? I have a feeling it's going to be quite massive. [1]: https://github.com/jamezp/wildfly/compare/WFLY-2332 -- James R. Perkins Red Hat JBoss Middleware
Brian Stansberry
Thursday, 17 October Thu, 17 Oct
Can you explain more as to what this patch is doing? Partly it seems to be directly declaring some dependencies in WF modules instead of having them coming in transitively from other WF modules. Which is ok by me if the module directly imports classes from the dependency. But I don't know what practical difference this change makes. I don't get (or like) the exclusions in the main pom.xml at all. On 10/17/13 8:06 PM, James R. Perkins wrote:
Debugging a TCK issue I found that the client jars that shade in their dependencies were also pulling in the logmanager transitively from a couple dependencies. This led to look at what else was coming in transitively and realized, as we probably already know, it goes deep. I started making some changes [1] after talking to David (which I may have misunderstood so don't blame him :)) to exclude dependencies for WildFly maven modules. I'm not really close to be done as it seems this will take quite a while. The question is do we even want to exclude dependencies like this? If I continued and did a PR would it be accepted? I have a feeling it's going to be quite massive. [1]: https://github.com/jamezp/wildfly/compare/WFLY-2332 -- James R. Perkins Red Hat JBoss Middleware _______________________________________________ wildfly-dev mailing list wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
-- Brian Stansberry Principal Software Engineer JBoss by Red Hat
James Perkins
Yes that was basically the idea. The main benefit is dependencies, like the log manager, won't leak into projects that shouldn't use them. It might be more work than it's worth. -- James R. Perkins JBoss by Red Hat Brian Stansberry <brian.stansberry(a)redhat.com> wrote: Can you explain more as to what this patch is doing? Partly it seems to be directly declaring some dependencies in WF modules instead of having them coming in transitively from other WF modules. Which is ok by me if the module directly imports classes from the dependency. But I don't know what practical difference this change makes. I don't get (or like) the exclusions in the main pom.xml at all. On 10/17/13 8:06 PM, James R. Perkins wrote:
-- Brian Stansberry Principal Software Engineer JBoss by Red Hat _______________________________________________ wildfly-dev mailing list wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
So every module is explicitly listing all its dependencies (fine) and then the main pom has exlusions for all of them to prevent transitive dependencies between modules? Ugh. Are some of these modules even a problem? I don't see how management-client-content or host-controller or patching would be in the dependency set for the client jar poms. I so pray for the day when Maven finally just has reasonable flags to turn off transitive dependencies. On 10/17/13 9:40 PM, James Perkins wrote:
Yes that was basically the idea. The main benefit is dependencies, like the log manager, won't leak into projects that shouldn't use them. It might be more work than it's worth. -- James R. Perkins JBoss by Red Hat Brian Stansberry <brian.stansberry(a)redhat.com> wrote: Can you explain more as to what this patch is doing? Partly it seems to be directly declaring some dependencies in WF modules instead of having them coming in transitively from other WF modules. Which is ok by me if the module directly imports classes from the dependency. But I don't know what practical difference this change makes. I don't get (or like) the exclusions in the main pom.xml at all. On 10/17/13 8:06 PM, James R. Perkins wrote: > Debugging a TCK issue I found that the client jars that shade in their > dependencies were also pulling in the logmanager transitively from a > couple dependencies. This led to look at what else was coming in > transitively and realized, as we probably already know, it goes deep. > > I started making some changes [1] after talking to David (which I may > have misunderstood so don't blame him :)) to exclude dependencies for > WildFly maven modules. I'm not really close to be done as it seems this > will take quite a while. The question is do we even want to exclude > dependencies like this? If I continued and did a PR would it be > accepted? I have a feeling it's going to be quite massive. > > [1]: https://github.com/jamezp/wildfly/compare/WFLY-2332 > > -- > James R. Perkins > Red Hat JBoss Middleware > > > > _______________________________________________ > wildfly-dev mailing list > wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org > https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev >
On 17 Oct, 2013, at 19:55, Brian Stansberry <brian.stansberry(a)redhat.com> wrote:
So every module is explicitly listing all its dependencies (fine) and then the main pom has exlusions for all of them to prevent transitive dependencies between modules? Ugh.
Yeah, pretty much. It really might not be worth it which is why I wanted to bring it up before I continued down the path. Maybe one idea would be to exclude only things like the logmanager, but allow transitive dependencies for org.wildfly and probably DMR and MSC.
Are some of these modules even a problem? I don't see how management-client-content or host-controller or patching would be in the dependency set for the client jar poms.
The two client jars that were an issue actually weren't a result of anything in WildFly. I just started going through it and opened this lovely can of worms.
I so pray for the day when Maven finally just has reasonable flags to turn off transitive dependencies.
That would be awesome. Like a compile scope that actually means, I don't know compile not runtime :)
On 10/17/13 9:40 PM, James Perkins wrote: > Yes that was basically the idea. The main benefit is dependencies, like the log manager, won't leak into projects that shouldn't use them. It might be more work than it's worth. > -- > James R. Perkins > JBoss by Red Hat > > Brian Stansberry <brian.stansberry(a)redhat.com> wrote: > > Can you explain more as to what this patch is doing? Partly it seems to > be directly declaring some dependencies in WF modules instead of having > them coming in transitively from other WF modules. Which is ok by me if > the module directly imports classes from the dependency. But I don't > know what practical difference this change makes. > > I don't get (or like) the exclusions in the main pom.xml at all. > > On 10/17/13 8:06 PM, James R. Perkins wrote: >> Debugging a TCK issue I found that the client jars that shade in their >> dependencies were also pulling in the logmanager transitively from a >> couple dependencies. This led to look at what else was coming in >> transitively and realized, as we probably already know, it goes deep. >> >> I started making some changes [1] after talking to David (which I may >> have misunderstood so don't blame him :)) to exclude dependencies for >> WildFly maven modules. I'm not really close to be done as it seems this >> will take quite a while. The question is do we even want to exclude >> dependencies like this? If I continued and did a PR would it be >> accepted? I have a feeling it's going to be quite massive. >> >> [1]: https://github.com/jamezp/wildfly/compare/WFLY-2332 >> >> -- >> James R. Perkins >> Red Hat JBoss Middleware >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> wildfly-dev mailing list >> wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org >> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev >> > > -- Brian Stansberry Principal Software Engineer JBoss by Red Hat
-- James R. Perkins JBoss by Red Hat
On 10/17/13 10:57 PM, James R. Perkins wrote:
On 17 Oct, 2013, at 19:55, Brian Stansberry <brian.stansberry(a)redhat.com> wrote: > So every module is explicitly listing all its dependencies (fine) and then the main pom has exlusions for all of them to prevent transitive dependencies between modules? Ugh. Yeah, pretty much. It really might not be worth it which is why I wanted to bring it up before I continued down the path. Maybe one idea would be to exclude only things like the logmanager, but allow transitive dependencies for org.wildfly and probably DMR and MSC. > > Are some of these modules even a problem? I don't see how management-client-content or host-controller or patching would be in the dependency set for the client jar poms. The two client jars that were an issue actually weren't a result of anything in WildFly. I just started going through it and opened this lovely can of worms.
Back to my original question then. What problem is this patch solving? I don't like how maven handles transitive dependencies, but it's a huge effort to try and fight maven, IMHO not worth it unless it's solving a specific problem. The server-side runtime dependencies are controlled via the module.xml files, which, thankfully, have a sane approach to dependency management. So I think we only need to worry about runtime for the few things where the pom is actually relevant to runtime; stuff like model-controller-client or the client jar poms. BTW, please don't take my responses as being critical of the patch or the thread. You're correctly asking the same questions I am -- "is this worth it?"
> > I so pray for the day when Maven finally just has reasonable flags to turn off transitive dependencies. That would be awesome. Like a compile scope that actually means, I don't know compile not runtime :) > > On 10/17/13 9:40 PM, James Perkins wrote: >> Yes that was basically the idea. The main benefit is dependencies, like the log manager, won't leak into projects that shouldn't use them. It might be more work than it's worth. >> -- >> James R. Perkins >> JBoss by Red Hat >> >> Brian Stansberry <brian.stansberry(a)redhat.com> wrote: >> >> Can you explain more as to what this patch is doing? Partly it seems to >> be directly declaring some dependencies in WF modules instead of having >> them coming in transitively from other WF modules. Which is ok by me if >> the module directly imports classes from the dependency. But I don't >> know what practical difference this change makes. >> >> I don't get (or like) the exclusions in the main pom.xml at all. >> >> On 10/17/13 8:06 PM, James R. Perkins wrote: >>> Debugging a TCK issue I found that the client jars that shade in their >>> dependencies were also pulling in the logmanager transitively from a >>> couple dependencies. This led to look at what else was coming in >>> transitively and realized, as we probably already know, it goes deep. >>> >>> I started making some changes [1] after talking to David (which I may >>> have misunderstood so don't blame him :)) to exclude dependencies for >>> WildFly maven modules. I'm not really close to be done as it seems this >>> will take quite a while. The question is do we even want to exclude >>> dependencies like this? If I continued and did a PR would it be >>> accepted? I have a feeling it's going to be quite massive. >>> >>> [1]: https://github.com/jamezp/wildfly/compare/WFLY-2332 >>> >>> -- >>> James R. Perkins >>> Red Hat JBoss Middleware >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> wildfly-dev mailing list >>> wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org >>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev >>> >> >> > > > -- > Brian Stansberry > Principal Software Engineer > JBoss by Red Hat -- James R. Perkins JBoss by Red Hat
David M. Lloyd
On 10/18/2013 07:51 AM, Brian Stansberry wrote:
On 10/17/13 10:57 PM, James R. Perkins wrote: > > On 17 Oct, 2013, at 19:55, Brian Stansberry <brian.stansberry(a)redhat.com> wrote: > >> So every module is explicitly listing all its dependencies (fine) and then the main pom has exlusions for all of them to prevent transitive dependencies between modules? Ugh. > > Yeah, pretty much. It really might not be worth it which is why I wanted to bring it up before I continued down the path. Maybe one idea would be to exclude only things like the logmanager, but allow transitive dependencies for org.wildfly and probably DMR and MSC. > >> >> Are some of these modules even a problem? I don't see how management-client-content or host-controller or patching would be in the dependency set for the client jar poms. > > The two client jars that were an issue actually weren't a result of anything in WildFly. I just started going through it and opened this lovely can of worms. > Back to my original question then. What problem is this patch solving? I don't like how maven handles transitive dependencies, but it's a huge effort to try and fight maven, IMHO not worth it unless it's solving a specific problem. The server-side runtime dependencies are controlled via the module.xml files, which, thankfully, have a sane approach to dependency management. So I think we only need to worry about runtime for the few things where the pom is actually relevant to runtime; stuff like model-controller-client or the client jar poms. BTW, please don't take my responses as being critical of the patch or the thread. You're correctly asking the same questions I am -- "is this worth it?"
Well I feel like I should clarify something. When I originally started the "exclude everything" policy, I was only excluding dependencies *from* dependencies, not from the core modules. I don't think adding exclusions in dependencies on core modules buys anything because they themselves already have exclusions for things.
>> I so pray for the day when Maven finally just has reasonable flags to turn off transitive dependencies. > > That would be awesome. Like a compile scope that actually means, I don't know compile not runtime :)
That's called "provided".
> >> >> On 10/17/13 9:40 PM, James Perkins wrote: >>> Yes that was basically the idea. The main benefit is dependencies, like the log manager, won't leak into projects that shouldn't use them. It might be more work than it's worth. >>> -- >>> James R. Perkins >>> JBoss by Red Hat >>> >>> Brian Stansberry <brian.stansberry(a)redhat.com> wrote: >>> >>> Can you explain more as to what this patch is doing? Partly it seems to >>> be directly declaring some dependencies in WF modules instead of having >>> them coming in transitively from other WF modules. Which is ok by me if >>> the module directly imports classes from the dependency. But I don't >>> know what practical difference this change makes. >>> >>> I don't get (or like) the exclusions in the main pom.xml at all. >>> >>> On 10/17/13 8:06 PM, James R. Perkins wrote: >>>> Debugging a TCK issue I found that the client jars that shade in their >>>> dependencies were also pulling in the logmanager transitively from a >>>> couple dependencies. This led to look at what else was coming in >>>> transitively and realized, as we probably already know, it goes deep. >>>> >>>> I started making some changes [1] after talking to David (which I may >>>> have misunderstood so don't blame him :)) to exclude dependencies for >>>> WildFly maven modules. I'm not really close to be done as it seems this >>>> will take quite a while. The question is do we even want to exclude >>>> dependencies like this? If I continued and did a PR would it be >>>> accepted? I have a feeling it's going to be quite massive. >>>> >>>> [1]: https://github.com/jamezp/wildfly/compare/WFLY-2332 >>>> >>>> -- >>>> James R. Perkins >>>> Red Hat JBoss Middleware >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> wildfly-dev mailing list >>>> wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org >>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Brian Stansberry >> Principal Software Engineer >> JBoss by Red Hat > > -- > James R. Perkins > JBoss by Red Hat > > >
-- - DML
On 10/18/2013 06:17 AM, David M. Lloyd wrote:
On 10/18/2013 07:51 AM, Brian Stansberry wrote: > > Back to my original question then. What problem is this patch solving? I > don't like how maven handles transitive dependencies, but it's a huge > effort to try and fight maven, IMHO not worth it unless it's solving a > specific problem.
The original problem I saw just just the logmanager leaking into the shaded client jars. When I ran the dependency tree I noticed just about every core module had a transitive dependency on the logmanager. It got me thinking about what else might be leaked in and it sounds like I had misunderstood what David meant. End result, nothing to see here move along. :)
> > The server-side runtime dependencies are controlled via the module.xml > files, which, thankfully, have a sane approach to dependency management. > So I think we only need to worry about runtime for the few things where > the pom is actually relevant to runtime; stuff like > model-controller-client or the client jar poms. > > BTW, please don't take my responses as being critical of the patch or > the thread. You're correctly asking the same questions I am -- "is this > worth it?" Well I feel like I should clarify something. When I originally started the "exclude everything" policy, I was only excluding dependencies *from* dependencies, not from the core modules. I don't think adding exclusions in dependencies on core modules buys anything because they themselves already have exclusions for things.
Makes sense. I do think I will add exclusions to core modules that use the logmanager. I don't think there are any other dependencies that really matter if they leak in, but one less choice of a Logger when auto-completing in an IDE might be nice.
>>> I so pray for the day when Maven finally just has reasonable flags to turn off transitive dependencies. >> That would be awesome. Like a compile scope that actually means, I don't know compile not runtime :) That's called "provided".
Yeah, it's just not as intuitive as compile time and bites people all the time. For example looking through the pom's I found a few spots where jboss-logging was marked as provided when it should likely not be since it is required at runtime. I've also seen cases where the logging tooling wasn't marked as provided when it should be since it's only needed at compile time :)
>>> On 10/17/13 9:40 PM, James Perkins wrote: >>>> Yes that was basically the idea. The main benefit is dependencies, like the log manager, won't leak into projects that shouldn't use them. It might be more work than it's worth. >>>> -- >>>> James R. Perkins >>>> JBoss by Red Hat >>>> >>>> Brian Stansberry <brian.stansberry(a)redhat.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> Can you explain more as to what this patch is doing? Partly it seems to >>>> be directly declaring some dependencies in WF modules instead of having >>>> them coming in transitively from other WF modules. Which is ok by me if >>>> the module directly imports classes from the dependency. But I don't >>>> know what practical difference this change makes. >>>> >>>> I don't get (or like) the exclusions in the main pom.xml at all. >>>> >>>> On 10/17/13 8:06 PM, James R. Perkins wrote: >>>>> Debugging a TCK issue I found that the client jars that shade in their >>>>> dependencies were also pulling in the logmanager transitively from a >>>>> couple dependencies. This led to look at what else was coming in >>>>> transitively and realized, as we probably already know, it goes deep. >>>>> >>>>> I started making some changes [1] after talking to David (which I may >>>>> have misunderstood so don't blame him :)) to exclude dependencies for >>>>> WildFly maven modules. I'm not really close to be done as it seems this >>>>> will take quite a while. The question is do we even want to exclude >>>>> dependencies like this? If I continued and did a PR would it be >>>>> accepted? I have a feeling it's going to be quite massive. >>>>> >>>>> [1]: https://github.com/jamezp/wildfly/compare/WFLY-2332 >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> James R. Perkins >>>>> Red Hat JBoss Middleware >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> wildfly-dev mailing list >>>>> wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org >>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev >>>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Brian Stansberry >>> Principal Software Engineer >>> JBoss by Red Hat >> -- >> James R. Perkins >> JBoss by Red Hat >> >> >> >
-- James R. Perkins Red Hat JBoss Middleware
Tomaž Cerar
Why don't you just configure shade plugin to use only specified dependencies and exclude everything else? On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 5:53 PM, James R. Perkins <jperkins(a)redhat.com>wrote:
On 10/18/2013 06:17 AM, David M. Lloyd wrote: > On 10/18/2013 07:51 AM, Brian Stansberry wrote: >> >> Back to my original question then. What problem is this patch solving? I >> don't like how maven handles transitive dependencies, but it's a huge >> effort to try and fight maven, IMHO not worth it unless it's solving a >> specific problem. The original problem I saw just just the logmanager leaking into the shaded client jars. When I ran the dependency tree I noticed just about every core module had a transitive dependency on the logmanager. It got me thinking about what else might be leaked in and it sounds like I had misunderstood what David meant. End result, nothing to see here move along. :) >> >> The server-side runtime dependencies are controlled via the module.xml >> files, which, thankfully, have a sane approach to dependency management. >> So I think we only need to worry about runtime for the few things where >> the pom is actually relevant to runtime; stuff like >> model-controller-client or the client jar poms. >> >> BTW, please don't take my responses as being critical of the patch or >> the thread. You're correctly asking the same questions I am -- "is this >> worth it?" > Well I feel like I should clarify something. When I originally started > the "exclude everything" policy, I was only excluding dependencies > *from* dependencies, not from the core modules. I don't think adding > exclusions in dependencies on core modules buys anything because they > themselves already have exclusions for things. Makes sense. I do think I will add exclusions to core modules that use the logmanager. I don't think there are any other dependencies that really matter if they leak in, but one less choice of a Logger when auto-completing in an IDE might be nice. > >>>> I so pray for the day when Maven finally just has reasonable flags to turn off transitive dependencies. >>> That would be awesome. Like a compile scope that actually means, I don't know compile not runtime :) > That's called "provided". Yeah, it's just not as intuitive as compile time and bites people all the time. For example looking through the pom's I found a few spots where jboss-logging was marked as provided when it should likely not be since it is required at runtime. I've also seen cases where the logging tooling wasn't marked as provided when it should be since it's only needed at compile time :) > >>>> On 10/17/13 9:40 PM, James Perkins wrote: >>>>> Yes that was basically the idea. The main benefit is dependencies, like the log manager, won't leak into projects that shouldn't use them. It might be more work than it's worth. >>>>> -- >>>>> James R. Perkins >>>>> JBoss by Red Hat >>>>> >>>>> Brian Stansberry <brian.stansberry(a)redhat.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Can you explain more as to what this patch is doing? Partly it seems to >>>>> be directly declaring some dependencies in WF modules instead of having >>>>> them coming in transitively from other WF modules. Which is ok by me if >>>>> the module directly imports classes from the dependency. But I don't >>>>> know what practical difference this change makes. >>>>> >>>>> I don't get (or like) the exclusions in the main pom.xml at all. >>>>> >>>>> On 10/17/13 8:06 PM, James R. Perkins wrote: >>>>>> Debugging a TCK issue I found that the client jars that shade in their >>>>>> dependencies were also pulling in the logmanager transitively from a >>>>>> couple dependencies. This led to look at what else was coming in >>>>>> transitively and realized, as we probably already know, it goes deep. >>>>>> >>>>>> I started making some changes [1] after talking to David (which I may >>>>>> have misunderstood so don't blame him :)) to exclude dependencies for >>>>>> WildFly maven modules. I'm not really close to be done as it seems this >>>>>> will take quite a while. The question is do we even want to exclude >>>>>> dependencies like this? If I continued and did a PR would it be >>>>>> accepted? I have a feeling it's going to be quite massive. >>>>>> >>>>>> [1]: https://github.com/jamezp/wildfly/compare/WFLY-2332 >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> James R. Perkins >>>>>> Red Hat JBoss Middleware >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> wildfly-dev mailing list >>>>>> wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org >>>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Brian Stansberry >>>> Principal Software Engineer >>>> JBoss by Red Hat >>> -- >>> James R. Perkins >>> JBoss by Red Hat >>> >>> >>> >> > -- James R. Perkins Red Hat JBoss Middleware _______________________________________________ wildfly-dev mailing list wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev
On 10/18/2013 09:28 AM, Tomaž Cerar wrote:
Why don't you just configure shade plugin to use only specified dependencies and exclude everything else?
That would work, but it's more that it opened the question in my mind what else is coming in transitively. The two client jar's I'm aware of do this, but they both brought in a transitive dependency on the logmanager. The exclusion though should happen in the dependency management of the parent pom not the shade configuration though.
On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 5:53 PM, James R. Perkins <jperkins(a)redhat.com <mailto:jperkins@redhat.com>> wrote: On 10/18/2013 06:17 AM, David M. Lloyd wrote: > On 10/18/2013 07:51 AM, Brian Stansberry wrote: >> >> Back to my original question then. What problem is this patch solving? I >> don't like how maven handles transitive dependencies, but it's a huge >> effort to try and fight maven, IMHO not worth it unless it's solving a >> specific problem. The original problem I saw just just the logmanager leaking into the shaded client jars. When I ran the dependency tree I noticed just about every core module had a transitive dependency on the logmanager. It got me thinking about what else might be leaked in and it sounds like I had misunderstood what David meant. End result, nothing to see here move along. :) >> >> The server-side runtime dependencies are controlled via the module.xml >> files, which, thankfully, have a sane approach to dependency management. >> So I think we only need to worry about runtime for the few things where >> the pom is actually relevant to runtime; stuff like >> model-controller-client or the client jar poms. >> >> BTW, please don't take my responses as being critical of the patch or >> the thread. You're correctly asking the same questions I am -- "is this >> worth it?" > Well I feel like I should clarify something. When I originally started > the "exclude everything" policy, I was only excluding dependencies > *from* dependencies, not from the core modules. I don't think adding > exclusions in dependencies on core modules buys anything because they > themselves already have exclusions for things. Makes sense. I do think I will add exclusions to core modules that use the logmanager. I don't think there are any other dependencies that really matter if they leak in, but one less choice of a Logger when auto-completing in an IDE might be nice. > >>>> I so pray for the day when Maven finally just has reasonable flags to turn off transitive dependencies. >>> That would be awesome. Like a compile scope that actually means, I don't know compile not runtime :) > That's called "provided". Yeah, it's just not as intuitive as compile time and bites people all the time. For example looking through the pom's I found a few spots where jboss-logging was marked as provided when it should likely not be since it is required at runtime. I've also seen cases where the logging tooling wasn't marked as provided when it should be since it's only needed at compile time :) > >>>> On 10/17/13 9:40 PM, James Perkins wrote: >>>>> Yes that was basically the idea. The main benefit is dependencies, like the log manager, won't leak into projects that shouldn't use them. It might be more work than it's worth. >>>>> -- >>>>> James R. Perkins >>>>> JBoss by Red Hat >>>>> >>>>> Brian Stansberry <brian.stansberry(a)redhat.com <mailto:brian.stansberry@redhat.com>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Can you explain more as to what this patch is doing? Partly it seems to >>>>> be directly declaring some dependencies in WF modules instead of having >>>>> them coming in transitively from other WF modules. Which is ok by me if >>>>> the module directly imports classes from the dependency. But I don't >>>>> know what practical difference this change makes. >>>>> >>>>> I don't get (or like) the exclusions in the main pom.xml at all. >>>>> >>>>> On 10/17/13 8:06 PM, James R. Perkins wrote: >>>>>> Debugging a TCK issue I found that the client jars that shade in their >>>>>> dependencies were also pulling in the logmanager transitively from a >>>>>> couple dependencies. This led to look at what else was coming in >>>>>> transitively and realized, as we probably already know, it goes deep. >>>>>> >>>>>> I started making some changes [1] after talking to David (which I may >>>>>> have misunderstood so don't blame him :)) to exclude dependencies for >>>>>> WildFly maven modules. I'm not really close to be done as it seems this >>>>>> will take quite a while. The question is do we even want to exclude >>>>>> dependencies like this? If I continued and did a PR would it be >>>>>> accepted? I have a feeling it's going to be quite massive. >>>>>> >>>>>> [1]: https://github.com/jamezp/wildfly/compare/WFLY-2332 >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> James R. Perkins >>>>>> Red Hat JBoss Middleware >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> wildfly-dev mailing list >>>>>> wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org <mailto:wildfly-dev@lists.jboss.org> >>>>>> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Brian Stansberry >>>> Principal Software Engineer >>>> JBoss by Red Hat >>> -- >>> James R. Perkins >>> JBoss by Red Hat >>> >>> >>> >> > -- James R. Perkins Red Hat JBoss Middleware _______________________________________________ wildfly-dev mailing list wildfly-dev(a)lists.jboss.org <mailto:wildfly-dev@lists.jboss.org> https://lists.jboss.org/mailman/listinfo/wildfly-dev


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text:
The BBC's Middle East Ombudsman
Matt Welch | 6.2.2004 2:14 AM
Malcolm Balen, who was appointed last November to conduct a year-long evaluation the Beeb's coverage of Israeli/Palestine issues, is profiled in Ha'aretz. Like many news-organization ombudsmen, he is having a difficult time separating what he feels to be legitimate criticism and ranting accusation:
"I know there is a widespread belief, and it quite shocked me on taking this job, that if the BBC get something wrong, or the nuances are misplaced, there is now a virtually automatic assumption that the BBC had done that because it is biased against Israel, or worse, anti-Semitic," he says. "It is very difficult for sections of the audience to accept that it the BBC got something wrong - it is maybe because it got it wrong, and not because it is biased. This situation polarized the debate and it is very difficult to get the editorial debate back on pragmatic level."
Interesting article; whole thing here. (Link via Harry's Place.)
NEXT: No Honor Among Thieves
Hide Comments (36)
June.2.2004 at 2:25 am
A few years ago, during a time of particularly intense coverage of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the LA Times ran 2 letters to the editor on the same article. One letter complained about the blatant anti-Israeli bias of the article. The other complained about the blatant pro-Israeli bias of the article.
When a topic is sufficiently controversial, anything that doesn't favor your side can be interpreted as bias.
Matt Welch
Which, of course, doesn't mean the critics are wrong!
John Kluge
Perhaps if the BBC ever got something wrong in Isreal's favor, this explination would hold water. As it is, they only seem to make mistakes favoring one side. At some point it can no longer be considered a coincidence.
I agree with John. The trouble isn't a stray line or story here and there, but years of open and notorious bias.
BBC Middle East Ombudsman
Besides, how can we be biased, since the damn Yids control the media?
Matthew Cromer
The BBC coverage of the Israeli - Palestinian conflict is so utterly, laughably biased that no attempt at damage control at this stage of the game can possibly succeed.
Let's face it: The European left, and to a lesser extent the American left, has become a bastion of anti-semitic bigotry last seen in the 1930s. I guess when the last generation of Nazis has died off and the crimes officially are "history" instead of seen as relevent and present, the way is clear for a new generation of losers to pick up that ancient bigotry, dust it off, and wear it (proudly in Europe, with some trepidation in America). The worst of it all is to hear the grandchildren of the SS goons calling the grandchildren of concentration camp survivors "Nazis", even as their allies in Gaza shoot pregnant women in the belly after they execute her children in front of her eyes, finally murdering her after she watches all her children, including the one not yet born, slaughtered in front of her. With cameras rolling, of course!
fyodor
I have known shitloads of leftists over the years, many of whom expressed strong anti-Israel sentiments, none of whom expressed any anti-Semetic sentiments, whatsoever. But I'm sure facts don't matter when it's more convenient to demonize those with whom you disagree. Blah, blah.
I will only click once!!!!
Read carefully
Fydor,
If they are not anti-semetic, why do they hold Isreal to standards they hold no other nation, other than perhaps America, to? Why is that the occupation of the West Bank is so bad, but Syria's occupation of Lebenon is not? What is the difference other than the fact that Isreal is Jewish and democratic?
Mackey
Dude, learn how to fookin spell.
Gary Gunnels
Matthew Cromer,
Godwin's law applies to your statements. Recently in a poll in France 2/3rds of the population described themselves as having a favorable opinion of Israel generally; Ha'aretz had an article on the poll. For such virulent anti-semites, they certainly have a high opinion of Israel. Instead of lashing out with over the top statements are almost wholly divorced from reality, please, use your brain in the future.
John Kluge,
"When it became a liberal, capitalist, democracy its image in Europe took a turn for the worse."
Well, Israel was always a Democracy, even when the left liked it, so your analysis is off there. And Israel is one of the least capitalist states in the West; as any glance at its welfare-state policies, protectionism, etc. will readily demonstrate. As to it being liberal, well its better than Saudi Arabia, but given the level of press censorship and the like there, its hardly a stunning example of liberalism. These are all credible and rather mundane criticisms of Israel; yet they hardly make me an anti-semite. Furthermore, both you and your nitwit twin Cromer confuse the BBC with Europe; I would suggest that one is not a proxy for the other.
"All of the sudden Europe found a way to exercise its guilt about the holocost..."
Which of course explains why European governments are so fond of building monuments, museums, etc. to the holocaust, and why so many of their citizens visit them; why schools emphasize the study of the holocaust when discussing 20th century history; etc. When you an actually bring evidence to bear to support your position I can take you seriously; so far your comments ring more like the sort of national chauvanism and bigotry you accuse Europeans of.
"This explains why Nazi is a favorite insult hurled at Isreal."
I suspect its the favorite insult of some on the left for the same reason why Nazi is your favorite insult for Europeans; because it has a nice visceral emotional effect.
"If they are not anti-semetic, why do they hold Isreal to standards they hold no other nation, other than perhaps America, to?"
Do they? Establish this with hard data please.
"Why is that the occupation of the West Bank is so bad, but Syria's occupation of Lebenon is not?"
Is there a qualitative difference between the two?
"What is the difference other than the fact that Isreal is Jewish and democratic?"
Well, you need to establish such a difference exists (as you have not done such, your question is unripe).
Why, why, why, indeed! Since I'm speaking of others, I would let them defend their position on their own. But I shall point out there's an infinite number of reasons why we humans see things very differently from each other. Evidently, only one reason will satisfy you in this regard. Personally, if someone demonstrates no general antipathy towards Jews, I would say that that is plenty of evidence that there is some other explanation for their harsh criticism than anti-semitism. But obviously it will never be enough evidence for you.
BTW, my own attitude towards the Mid East conflict could probably be best summarized as a plague on both their houses. And I'm Jewish meself.
So criticizing Sharon and Israel is proof that one is anti-semitic, eh?
Then I will assume that anyone criticizing Robert Mugabe is a member of the Ku Klux Klan.
BTW, you are committing a logical phallacy that I believe is called "assumption by ignorance," or some such. An example of this phallacy is when two people see something strange in the sky and one says, "Look! A alien spacecraft!" When the other protests it couldn't be that, the first says, "Well then what ELSE could it be?" The fact that the second cannot explain it does not prove the first right. Ditto for criticism of Israel that either of us may find overly harsh. As I say, there's an infinite number of reasons why people may take such positions. Lawd knows, there's no lack of wacky opinions out there! But if someone exhibits absolutely zero antipathy or intolerance towards Jews, I thinks it's asinine to automatically attribute his criticism of Israel to anti-Semitism, no matter how inconsistent you might consider his views.
Also, to anyone out there, because I know I don't know everything and am always interested to learn, does Syria really "occupy" Lebanon? I know they have a military presence there, but do they really run Lebanon such that Lebanon does not currently exist as an independent nation?
Yep, pretty much. Lebanon's kind of a "rump nation" similar to Finland and the Rooskies or Hong Kong and China. Syria was supposed to pull out back in '92 but didn't. "It's our turf", said Assad.
Nobody's thought it worth a war to settle the situation except Israel, who would love to kick their ass.
http://www.meib.org/articles/0103_l1.htm
Hmmm. I don't think anyone would have said the Soviet Union "occupied" Finland, would they? I don't doubt that Lebanon jumps when Syria says jump. But as long as they have a government that could even decide whether or not to do what Syria says, even if there's not much doubt, then I don't think that would be what I'd consider occupation. Palestine and Iraq at the moment, on the other hand, don't even have that option, and that's what I think of as occupation. And at the moment I don't think that's really an accurate description of Lebanon. Am I wrong?
mikem
Gary: Where's the hard data for all the statements you make? How about it? You're certainly not a hypocrite, are you? Or should we simply accept your remarks as truth while you insult John with "you and your nitwit twin", "use your brain", and then demand "hard data" for his remarks?
You answer John thusly:
?Is there a qualitative difference between the two??
Then you later answer his remark:
?I suspect its the favorite insult of some on the left for the same reason why Nazi is your favorite insult for Europeans; because it has a nice visceral emotional effect.?
Gary, reach deep down into that "powerful" and derisive intellect of yours and ask yourself if there is a qualitative difference between a Jew being called a Nazi and a Jew accusing a European (suspected home of Nazism, but I have no hard data to show you) of Nazism for making what he believes to be anti-Jewish statements?
You and fvodor are simply trying to shut down debate with demands for references you do not provide for your own remarks as well as sneering insults for those who disagree with you.
John pretty much says it all in his very first comment: "Perhaps if the BBC ever got something wrong in Isreal's favor, this explination would hold water. As it is, they only seem to make mistakes favoring one side. At some point it can no longer be considered a coincidence." If you and "I'm Jewish meself" fvodor disagree with his statements then just say so. I think most of his comments are on the money, but Hey, if you believe the BBC takes an evenhanded approach to MiddleEast news, then you are welcome to that and I and others will judge your objectivity and intelligence appropriately.
fyodor,
Read the article for more on Syria & Lebanon.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2101603/
June.2.2004 at 10:22 am
Did you get that, thoreau? When you take exception to being accused of racism, you're shutting down debate. Is that clear?
Mischaracterizing my comment (if you actually read it) is just plain lazy, Joe.
Horst Graben
Mr. Balen pretty much nails it: journalism attracts "liberals" and "leftists". No grand conspiracy, just a giant echo-chamber of folks who mostly never worked an honest year of physical labor nor experienced the hard light of science. These soft-headed, self-anointed intellectuals exhibit classic symptoms of battered wife syndrome. Israel is held to a high standard, while the wife-beating child abusers are given the benefit of the doubt in the hope that they will change if the reporters keep loving them.
Also, since the face of Israelis progressively fades to a lighter shade of euro-pale, the bias is more likely due to self loathing that rich white liberals love to wallow in. The Palestine Arabs are the more pure Semite group in the region; the liberal BBC "reporters" reveal their repressed white supremacy by making excuses for their stupid and poor brown brothers.
fvodor: To be honest, most of my "shutting down debate" comment was meant to be directed toward Gary's hypocritical call for "hard facts" and ad hominum remarks directed at John. I included you because of your "assumption by ignorance" comment and your plea to the effect that, since anti-Semitism is not the only possible reason for consistent stances against Israel it is wrong for John (or others) to accuse someone or some organization of it. I take that kind of sophistry to mean that I cannot express an opinion about anyone?s motives or agenda since in this universe there may be another explanation for their actions. So John and I should just shut up and not point a finger at those who consistently find fault with only one side in a conflict. Do you really think it is only ignorance that drives our curiosity when we see various media and pundits attack Israel for killing Hamas leaders while refusing to condemn Palestinians who blow up discos filled with teenage Jews? How many UN resolutions have been passed specifically condemning Israeli actions against their attackers? DOZENS. How many have been passed specifically condemning Palestinian terror attacks against Israeli civilians? ZERO.
And we are supposed to see this as coincidence and not jump to the "ignorant" conclusion that maybe the historical hatred for Jews that runs throughout the Arab world and parts of Europe plays any part in this? If what you say is true, why do so many ME Islamic leaders talk of driving the JEWS out of Israel or the ME? People like me see the celebrations that the Palestinians hold whenever Israeli (or Americans) civilians are killed. We compare that to the self-criticism and hand wringing that Israelis put themselves through when their actions result in Palestinian deaths. Guess who I think holds the moral ground? Guess who I think are the hypocrites?
"since anti-Semitism is not the only possible reason for consistent stances against Israel it is wrong for John (or others) to accuse someone or some organization of it. I take that kind of sophistry to mean that I cannot express an opinion about anyone?s motives or agenda since in this universe there may be another explanation for their actions"
Well, you can do anything you like, and if speculating on people's motives without any corroborating evidence is your bag, well by all means go for it. But to be intellectually honest, you need to acknowledge that speculation is all it is. And when I have presented evidence to the contrary (at least where rank and file American leftists are concerned, which is all I ever intended to address), and when the charge is as nefarious as is the charge of anti-Semitism, then yeah, now that you've brought it up, perhaps it does rise to the level of being "wrong." But it wasn't my intention to shut you up, despite your hyperventilating implication of such. (Hey, there's plenty of "passion" on both sides of this issue, doesn't seem to have gotten anyone very far, has it?) No, my only purpose was to cite direct anecdotal evidence to the contrary of what Mr. Kluge was saying. Because when someone paints a nasty picture with a broad brush that very clearly doesn't apply to some of the bristles you know personally (to torture a metaphor!), you feel compelled to speak up. And to go a little further, I really don't think that charges of anti-Semitism does the debate or the tragic situation one damn bit of good.
Heh, not that anything else seems to... 🙁
None of my statements ever accuse the BBC or Europeans of being anti-Semitic. In fact, they offer other explanations for the unfavorable treatment of Israel; namely gilt over the holocaust translating into a desire to find something wrong with the Jews, a general loathing of democracy and capitalism, and a western self hatred that refuses to hold any non-western societies to any standard of behavior while hoisting western societies onto a petard for the slightest offense. All of these tendencies make Israel and its protective cousin America perfect targets for irrational hatred and bias. In that sense its not specifically Jewish. As I said in my second post, I have no doubt that if the Palestinians started acting more like Americans and Jews and less like barbaric Arabs, they would cease to be sympathetic in the eyes of the people who now claim to be so concerned about them.
Apologies to John Kluge. Rereading up-thread I realize it was Matthew Cromer and not you who called the American left "a bastion of anti-semitic bigotry" (although less so than the European left, how temperate!). But then, if this position differs from your own, why didn't you say so right away rather than argue with me, saying, "If they are not anti-Semitic, why do they..." etc., etc?
fvodor: "if speculating on people's motives without any corroborating evidence is your bag.."
Well, yes. What is your idea of sufficiently corroborative evidence? A signed confession? A blueprint? I think that any reasonable person could look at the history of anti-Semitism in Europe, then at the venom spit at Israel for defending herself and conclude that it's the same old story. I don't consider that to be jumping to conclusions, as you apparently do. It is just sensing that the same type of prejudice is manifesting itself again. Certainly Europeans have gotten tired of having to apologize for trying to kill off the Jews and it must seem satisfying to be able to, in my view, show their hatred by defending Palestinian terrorists as freedom fighters while accusing Israel of war crimes for trying to defend her citizens. It must feel delicious to finally be able to spit at one's old nemesis without having to defend the indefensible. Middle East countries have been trying to destroy Israel since it was founded. Israel was founded as a safe haven for Jews from the European powers that wished to wipe them out or, most benignly, to separate them from the national life. So I am suspicious of the double standards that Israel's critics employ to condemn her. If that seems unduly rash to you, then so be it.
I don't think that leftists are by nature or belief anti-Semites. In fact, historically, Jews show a good deal of sympathy for leftist causes. But leftists are always looking for the next vanguard as shock troops in the "revolution". In the US, it was the violent black panthers that would start a race war and lead leftists to their rightful place as leaders of the "rule by people". I think leftists now see the turmoil in the ME as the next possible sparkplug for the revolution that the fall of the Soviet Union robbed them of. And I think that (and not anti-Semitism) is why leftists have realigned themselves now against Israel and her Jews. That observation in no way relieves leftists of the responsibility for their actions. Their motivations may seem pragmatic and unsullied by anti-Semitism, but adopting the tactics of the objectively anti-Semitic leaves them looking and smelling like anti-Semites, if you'll forgive me that.
Neither I, nor John I?ll assume, feel that all peoples of any given group can be ?painted with a broad brush?. I don?t ascribe everything I said above about leftists and leftism to each and every leftist or leftist group. But I hope that you are not implying that we cannot use general terms in discussion since not all self described ?whatever? would fit a universal definition.
"What is your idea of sufficiently corroborative evidence?"
For anti-Semitism, it is antipathy and intolerance displayed towards Jews, not just political opinions about the state of Israel. And this is what I do not witness among ANY leftists I have met.
"And I think that (and not anti-Semitism) is why leftists have realigned themselves now against Israel and her Jews."
Now here you seem to be backing away from the anti-Semitism charge. Good, but better had you not made it ("I think that any reasonable person could look at the history of anti-Semitism in Europe, then at the venom spit at Israel for defending herself and conclude that it's the same old story." and "show their hatred") in the first place.
"I don?t ascribe everything I said above about leftists and leftism to each and every leftist or leftist group."
But my experience with leftists is that they are so consistently devoid of anything close to what I would consider genuine anti-Semitism that I would consider the existence of such to be much more likely the exception than the rule. And again, that's based on direct experience with real people, not the speculative assumptions about why people are choosing the political positions they do.
"But I hope that you are not implying that we cannot use general terms in discussion since not all self described ?whatever? would fit a universal definition."
Once again, (sigh) you can sure as hell do anything you like, but you have offered no evidence that any leftists exhibit what I consider anti-Semitism, i.e., anitpathy and intolerance towards Jews. To the contrary, you are simply demonizing political positions with which you strongly disagree, and then in the next breath take it back.
"So I am suspicious of the double standards that Israel's critics employ to condemn her."
As well you should be. Although on this issue, double standards abound because most people only look at the sins of one side or the other and have differing views of the genesis of the conflict. Believe it or not, your opponents likley consider your own views every bit as full of double standards as you accuse theirs of being. Some of them might even go so far as to accuse you of bigotry and bias against Muslims. Go figure.
"...double standards abound because most people only look at the sins of one side or the other and have differing views of the genesis of the conflict."
Bravo, Fyodor!
I would add that this is aggrevated by most people's tendency to view their favorite side strictly as victims.
Mikam,
"And we are supposed to see this as coincidence and not jump to the "ignorant" conclusion that maybe the historical hatred for Jews that runs throughout the Arab world and parts of Europe plays any part in this?"
You imply that the perceptions of Jews in Europe and Middle East are the same and long-standing. They are quite different. The anti-Semitism that has been a feature of Europe (and to a more limited extent, the U.S.) is a baseless, aggressive bigotry (racial or religious, depending how you define "who is a Jew?") against Jews for being Jews.
I would describe the historical perception of Jews in the Middle East as a chauvinism common to most religious or racial groups (actually, humans in general, including many Jews). This is a bigotry against Jews (and Christians, Zoroastrians, Baha?is, etc) for not being Muslim or against Shiites for not being Sunni. Until the arrival of Zionism and Israel, the Muslim attitude toward Jews was mostly characterized by benevolent disinterest to disinterest.
This post obviously doesn't do the topic justice. Bernard Lewis' excellent book, The Jews of Islam, addresses this topic in detail.
what the fuck do test tubes or ditch digging have to do with good or bad reporting?
i assume this stream of manichean gibberish will only get worse as the election approaches?
fvodor: Almost all of my comments regarding anti-Semitism are in discussion of the ME and Europe, not leftists specifically. It is only at the end when I decided to answer your repeated references to leftists that I said that leftists are not inherently anti-Semitic, merely pragmatic and have adopted anti-Semitism as a tool. I don't see how what I said can be seen to be backing off. You mixed two different subjects (ME/Europe and leftism) and my opinion of how anti-Semitism relates to them. I see the roots of anti-Israeli opinion in Europe and the ME as anti-Semitism. It is only in leftism that I see it as the matter of a convenient victim and not more deeply rooted.
I don't know what to make of yours and Patrick's reassurances about double standards. I'm not willing to simply discount them as "everybody does it" as you two seem to want. If you are a leftist, fvodor, I'm flabbergasted that you have suddenly found little of interest in double standards and what they say about a people and a society. I find them to indicate prejudice. Has leftism dropped that corollary? Wow.
Patrick: I read Lewis also. You make some good factual points, but again I am not comforted by the fact that the ME could live with a few Jews, but not a bunch. If anything, your point reinforces mine. It's about their Jewishness, not Palestinian rights. That is why the Protocols sit in an Islamic museum and why Islamics make repeated blood libels about Jews (not just Israelis) drinking gentile baby blood and trying to control the world etc.
Anyone want to talk about what preceded the Crusades, or speech codes on campus, or how "free speech is a tool of the oppressors"? Just for a change?
Thanks for the discussion, guys.
I'm trying to shut down debate?? How about YOU address what I've actually SAID before tossing about accusations at me?!? What I've said is that I've met and known loads of leftists in my life, both currently and in the past, including many who have been harshly critical of Israel, and I've NEVER seen any evidence of genuine anti-semitism (defined by attitudes and feelings about JEWS, not just political opinions) in ANY of them! And being Jewish myself, I might just possibly be sensitive to such. I think that's DAMN good evidence that it's presumptuous, to put it mildly, to attribute leftist criticism of Israel en masse to anti-Semitism, whatever other weaknesses one may find in leftist rhetoric. Care to address THAT?
Please also note that what I'm saying has nothing to do with the BBC's purported bias in the matter, on which I don't have a strong enough opinion to bother expressing at the moment.
June.3.2004 at 12:20 pm
fyodor - while i generally agree with your assessment i have noticed a general rise in what used to be the domain of paranoid right wing conspiracy theories in the middle of the 20th century amongst a few NOTBUSH type folk. including all sorts of lame elders of zion type shit, david icke sado-paranoid stuff.
which is pretty fucking weird, no matter how you slice it. not so much the conspiracy as the going back in time to all sorts of old goofiness from the other side of the spectrum because NOTBUSH is fucking with their brains.
dhex,
Partisan politics will do that to ya!! 🙂
"...I am not comforted by the fact that the ME could live with a few Jews, but not a bunch."
And I am not comforted by the fact that Israel could live with a few non-Jews, but not a bunch.
I would suggest that for many who see Jews strictly as victims the ?historic hatred for Jews? blinds them to many of the unpleasant realities of Israel. It also leads to ?pro-Semitism? where Israel is defended simply because is it Jewish versus the anti-Semitism that attacks it because it is Jewish.
Indeed, the reality of Israel is a pro-Semitic double standard. Israel is founded on Zionism, i.e. there should be a state for Jews. It is a self-described Jewish state. Regardless of the underlying spirit of Israel?s view of individual rights, government policy and enforcement favor Jews simply because they are Jews. Israel is a vibrant democracy where a wide variety of political views are in play but it is still predicated on the idea that there must be more Jewish than non-Jewish voters. The settler movement, subsidized by the Israeli government, is all about getting more land and water for Jews (Armenian Israelis aren?t living in Gaza) and making as many non-Jews as uncomfortable as possible so they leave.
We both condemn the anti-Semitism spreading in the Middle East. The difference is you see it as evidence to reinforce support for Israel. I see it as further evidence that race/religion/tribe oriented ideologies are fundamentally flawed and immoral and that neither side of this conflict should get my support or my country?s.
Who holds the moral ground? Neither, both are standing in a moral sink hole. Just because Israel stands taller in that hole doesn?t mean it should receive unqualified support. Who are the hypocrites? They both are.
Anyway, yes, good discussion. Frustrating to deal with such a complex subject with posts and have to make a living on the side. 🙂