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Why not use tables for layout in HTML? [closed]
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It seems to be the general opinion that tables should not be used for layout in HTML.
I have never (or rarely to be honest) seen good arguments for this. The usual answers are:
It's good to separate content from layout
But this is a fallacious argument; Cliche Thinking. I guess it's true that using the table element for layout has little to do with tabular data. So what? Does my boss care? Do my users care?
Perhaps me or my fellow developers who have to maintain a web page care... Is a table less maintainable? I think using a table is easier than using divs and CSS.
By the way... why is using a div or a span good separation of content from layout and a table not? Getting a good layout with only divs often requires a lot of nested divs.
Readability of the code
I think it's the other way around. Most people understand HTML, few understand CSS.
It's better for SEO not to use tables
Why? Can anybody show some evidence that it is? Or a statement from Google that tables are discouraged from an SEO perspective?
Tables are slower.
An extra tbody element has to be inserted. This is peanuts for modern web browsers. Show me some benchmarks where the use of a table significantly slows down a page.
A layout overhaul is easier without tables, see css Zen Garden.
Most web sites that need an upgrade need new content (HTML) as well. Scenarios where a new version of a web site only needs a new CSS file are not very likely. Zen Garden is a nice web site, but a bit theoretical. Not to mention its misuse of CSS.
I am really interested in good arguments to use divs + CSS instead of tables.
edited Nov 6, 2018 at 0:07
21 revs, 14 users 69%
Benno Richters
Agreed, tables are fine when presenting tabular data. They should be avoided when using it purely for layout. Then again, sometimes, you have to take the easy road now and improve it later. Just view source and you'll see what I mean.
– Haacked
There is a duplicate Q and A at stackoverflow.com/questions/30251/tables-instead-of-divs
– Onorio Catenacci
The answer is simple: it depends. If tables are used to solve a specific problem that current CSS versions can't, they are well used. If you start getting tables inside tables, inside millions of tables then you're doing it wrong. If it's the ocasional table just to layout some 2 columns or something like that, I don't disallow it on my team: it's faster and easier to do it. (Myself, I always try to use CSS, but at the end of the day, delivery is more important than correct semantic HTML)
– AlfaTeK
@Camilo SO still lives in the 20th century. Jeff apparently does not know how to use the ul tag. Have a look at all of the lists on this site (badges, related questions, recent tags). They're all either single columns or long paragraphs separated with br.
– Yi Jiang
@Brad: Depending on some specific details (that's my get out for any clever comebacks ;-) that usage of DIVs is STILL better than abusing tables. Two parts of a document that happen to be laid out alongside each other can legitimately be contained in DIV elements, but they're certainly NOT tabular data. It doesn't matter what one specific styling happens to be; the content is either tabular or not. Note: I am NOT advocating DIVitis either :)
– Bobby Jack
Comments disabled on deleted / locked posts / reviews | Show 3 more comments
I'm going to go through your arguments one after another and try to show the errors in them.
It's good to separate content from layout But this is a fallacious argument; Cliché Thinking.
It's not fallacious at all because HTML was designed intentionally. Misuse of an element might not be completely out of question (after all, new idioms have developed in other languages, as well) but possible negative implications have to be counterbalanced. Additionally, even if there were no arguments against misusing the
 element today, there might be tomorrow because of the way browser vendors apply special treatment to the element. After all, they know that "
 elements are for tabular data only" and might use this fact to improve the rendering engine, in the process subtly changing how
s behave, and thus breaking cases where it was previously misused.
So what? Does my boss care? Do my users care?
Depends. Is your boss pointy-haired? Then he might not care. If she's competent, then she will care, because the users will.
The majority of professional web developers seem to oppose you[citation needed]. That tables are in fact less maintainable should be obvious. Using tables for layout means that changing the corporate layout will in fact mean changing every single page. This can be very expensive. On the other hand, judicious use of semantically meaningful HTML combined with CSS might confine such changes to the CSS and the pictures used.
Deeply nested
s are an anti-pattern just as table layouts. Good web designers don't need many of them. On the other hand, even such deep-nested divs don't have many of the problems of table layouts. In fact, they can even contribute to a semantic structure by logically dividing the content in parts.
Readability of the code I think it's the other way around. Most people understand html, little understand css. It's simpler.
"Most people" don't matter. Professionals matter. For professionals, table layouts create many more problems than HTML + CSS. This is like saying I shouldn't use GVim or Emacs because Notepad is simpler for most people. Or that I shouldn't use LaTeX because MS Word is simpler for most people.
I don't know if this is true and wouldn't use this as an argument but it would be logical. Search engines search for relevant data. While tabular data could of course be relevant, it's rarely what users search for. Users search for terms used in the page title or similarly prominent positions. It would therefore be logical to exclude tabular content from filtering and thus cutting the processing time (and costs!) by a large factor.
Tables are slower. An extra tbody element has to be inserted. This is peanuts for modern web browsers.
The extra element has got nothing to do with tables being slower. On the other hand, the layout algorithm for tables is much harder, the browser often has to wait for the whole table to load before it can begin to layout the content. Additionally, caching of the layout won't work (CSS can easily be cached). All this has been mentioned before.
Show me some benchmarks where the use of a table significantly slows down a page.
Unfortunately, I don't have any benchmark data. I would be interested in it myself because it's right that this argument lacks a certain scientific rigour.
Most web sites that need an upgrade need new content (html) as well. Scenarios where a new version of a web site only needs a new css file are not very likely.
Not at all. I've worked on several cases where changing the design was simplified by a separation of content and design. It's often still necessary to change some HTML code but the changes will always be much more confined. Additionally, design changes must on occasion be made dynamically. Consider template engines such as the one used by the WordPress blogging system. Table layouts would literally kill this system. I've worked on a similar case for a commercial software. Being able to change the design without changing the HTML code was one of the business requirements.
Another thing. Table layout makes automated parsing of websites (screen scraping) much harder. This might sound trivial because, after all, who does it? I was surprised myself. Screen scraping can help a lot if the service in question doesn't offer a WebService alternative to access its data. I'm working in bioinformatics where this is a sad reality. Modern web techniques and WebServices have not reached most developers and often, screen scraping is the only way to automate the process of getting data. No wonder that many biologists still perform such tasks manually. For thousands of data sets.
edited Aug 1, 2010 at 18:42
6 revs, 4 users 94%
Konrad Rudolph
"changing the corporate layout will in fact mean changing every single page" - Do people still actually duplicate the corporate layout on every page? It's so easy to resolve with master pages or user controls in .net, include files in php or classic asp, etc ... Anybody who copies the company layout like this deserves an a** kicking! ;-)
– John MacIntyre
Sorry but this is really "pie int he sky" wishful thinking. Users care? No. Noone cares except a small number of misguided revisionists. HTML (including tables) is far older than the relatively new notion of "semantics vs layout". Oh and source please for "the majority of professional web developers oppose you".
– cletus
Typo above: semantics were implied from the beginning.
 in HTML was always only meant for tabular data, never for layouting (back in the early years you couldn't change the table looks anyway, thus preventing its use as a layout anchor). In fact, early drafts of HTML had no notion of layout at all, and HTML was never meant for layout, but for structuring text. Even more: the very first proposal of HTML repeatedly warns against abusing tags to influence the layout, and cautions to use logical over physical markup.
Get a screen reader and have it read a page with a table layout. that is all.
– corymathews
@Sergio: please do not edit out relevant information. This is an unsourced dubious claim I'm using there and I want to make that quite clear. Your edit put a claim in my mouth that I can't back up, effectively making me a liar if this turns out to be false.
Here's my programmer's answer from a simliar thread
Semantics 101
First take a look at this code and think about what's wrong here...
class car {
int wheels = 4;
string engine;
car mybike = new car();
mybike.wheels = 2;
mybike.engine = null;
The problem, of course, is that a bike is not a car. The car class is an inappropriate class for the bike instance. The code is error-free, but is semantically incorrect. It reflects poorly on the programmer.
Now apply this to document markup. If your document needs to present tabular data, then the appropriate tag would be
. If you place navigation into a table however, then you're misusing the intended purpose of the
 element. In the second case, you're not presenting tabular data -- you're (mis)using the
 element to achieve a presentational goal.
Will visitors notice? No. Does your boss care? Maybe. Do we sometimes cut corners as programmers? Sure. But should we? No. Who benefits if you use semantic markup? You -- and your professional reputation. Now go and do the right thing.
Carl Camera
Sorry, that doesn't hold water. You don't use car for mybike because you would define a "bike" class instead. You can't define something else for "
" because it is more than a simple semantic tag -- it tells the browser how to render its content as well.
– Jimmy
Nice analogy, and great conclusion. Why should anyone have to be forced by one's boss and/or users into doing the right thing? Doesn't anyone take pride in their own work any more?
– Sherm Pendley
I think this is quite an arrogant post which doesn't explain anything but just repeats the same claims again without answering the question. I don't understand why it got so many upvotes????
– markus
I agree with tharkum. This response is rather subjective, and does not actually answer the question posed. While I agree that DIVs should be used for page layout, I cannot imagine that any web designer would be confused by a table-based layout.
– Richard Ev
@tharkun & Richard: How come "semantically incorrect" is subjective and does not explain anything?
– Vinko Vrsalovic ♦
Obvious answer: See CSS Zen Garden. If you tell me that you can easily do the same with a table-based layout (remember - the HTML isn't changing) then by all means use tables for layout.
Two other important things are accessibility and SEO.
Both care about in what order information is presented. You cannot easily present your navigation at the top of the page if your table-based layout puts it in the 3rd cell of the 2nd row of the 2nd nested table on the page.
So your answers are maintainability, accessibility and SEO.
Don't be lazy. Do things the right and proper way even if they are a bit harder to learn.
erlando
An often used trick in Zen Garden is replacing text by images, and define that in the CSS, thus making it invisible from HTML. Very, very wrong.
– GvS
I'm sorry but that's not right. The text is still in the HTML - that's one of the requirements of a CSSZG design. The HTML has to remain unchanged.
– erlando
If you look closely at some of the designs, the text in some headers is different from the text in the HTML. That's because the HTML is made invisible, and instead an image is inserted. (Example: csszengarden.com/?cssfile=/212/212.css&page=0, The ?Path? to ?Achievement?)
Sorry, there's absolutely no evidence div layouts are better for SEO. Also, Google themselves have stated that HTML validation doesn't matter to them - a slightly different issue but one aimed towards tables because they rarely validate.
– DisgruntledGoat
"Most of you are familiar with the virtues of a programmer. There are three, of course: laziness, impatience, and hubris." - Larry Wall
– inkredibl
See this duplicate question.
One item you're forgetting there is accessibility. Table-based layouts don't translate as well if you need to use a screen reader, for example. And if you do work for the government, supporting accessible browsers like screen readers may be required.
I also think you underestimate the impact of some of the things you mentioned in the question. For example, if you are both the designer and the programmer, you may not have a full appreciation of how well it separates presentation from content. But once you get into a shop where they are two distinct roles the advantages start to become clearer.
If you know what you're doing and have good tools, CSS really does have significant advantages over tables for layout. And while each item by itself may not justify abandoning tables, taken together it's generally worth it.
4 revs
Joel Coehoorn
Yes... indeed. I see that's duplicate. I missed it. Any action required besides promising I will be more careful next time :-) ?
– Benno Richters
Don't worry. This will be more and more common as the number of questions goes up. I didn't even downvote. We just want to be sure that as much as possible they eventually all point to a common source.
– Joel Coehoorn
I really like this answer. Using semantically meaningful tags isn't just a matter of tradition, it allows those obscure non-browsers (screen readers, screen scrapers, various parsers) to correctly categorize the various objects on your page.
– Phantom Watson
I was hoping someone would mention this. Accessibility should be a top priority!
May 12, 2009 at 9:01
I can't say I agree with the notion that accessibility should be a top priority in a commercial exercise. The cost benefit ratio is not feasible. It's like putting a wheelchair ramp on a mountain-climbing shop - a ridiculous waste of resources that could be applied to items with better CBR. If you were talking about a medical facility then a wheelchair ramp would be a priority. Likewise, I would only bother with web page accessibility for sites pitched at vision impaired people.
– Peter Wone
Unfortunately, CSS Zen Garden can no longer be used as an example of good HTML/CSS design. Virtually all of their recent designs use graphics for section heading. These graphic files are specified in the CSS.
Hence, a website whose purpose is to show the advantage of keeping design out of content, now regularly commits the UNSPEAKABLE SIN of putting content into design. (If the section heading in the HTML file were to change, the section heading displayed would not).
Which only goes to show that even those advocate the strict DIV & CSS religion, can't follow their own rules. You may use that as a guideline in how closely you follow them.
James Curran
You mean they're doing
Some Text
 and then in their css: h1 { background-image('foo.jpg'); text-indent:-3000px }? This is the correct way of doing it because you're retaining maximum semantic information in the style-less html. Or maybe I misunderstood you.
– Karan
Oct 12, 2008 at 1:08
Karen's right, you're wrong, James. Your example is a straw man. To forget to change the image when you changed the semantic HTML would be stupid. So is leaving your laptop on a bus. What's your point?
– AmbroseChapel
@Ambrose: Because the entire point of the friggin' site is to demonstrate the separation of content & style. Content & Style should properly be handled by different people, neither of whom should have to "remember" what the other changed.
– James Curran
Mr S&N: that would make matters even worse. You would have to dynamically generate new images -- in the correct style. So now you've moved styling from CSS to business layer code.
@James: Content and style can't always be handled by different people. When the content is stylized, collaboration must occur. How is

 any more maintainable than
Something
? In either example something.png needs to be updated. But the second example is far more accessible.
This isn't the definitive argument, by any means, but with CSS you can take the same markup and change the layout depending on medium, which is a nice advantage. For a print page you can quietly suppress navigation without having to create a printer-friendly page, for example.
Good point, though you can use css to hide cells in a table based layout, to supress navigation in a printable version for instance, a CSS layout gives you much more flexibility behind merely hiding data.
– Cory House
Oct 4, 2009 at 2:26
I hit this with one of my applications; boy was I happy when I realized how easy it was to create the "printer friendly" version with just some print CSS for the same pages as were on the screen.
– Lawrence Dol
One table for layout wouldn't be that bad. But you can't get the layout you need with just one table most of the time. Pretty soon you have 2 or three nested tables. This becomes very cumbersome.
It IS a LOT harder to read. That's not up to opinion. There's just more nested tags with no identifying marks on them.
Separating content from presentation is a good thing because it allows you to focus on what you're doing. Mixing the two leads to bloated pages that are hard to read.
CSS for styles allows your browser to cache the files and subsequent requests are much faster. This is HUGE.
Tables lock you into a design. Sure, not everyone needs the flexibility of CSS Zen Garden, but I've never worked on a site where I didn't need to change the design a little bit here and there. It's much easier with CSS.
Tables are hard to style. You don't have very much flexibility with them (i.e. you still need to add HTML attributes to fully control a table's styles)
I haven't used tables for non-tabular data in probably 4 years. I haven't looked back.
I'd really like to suggest reading CSS Mastery by Andy Budd. It's fantastic.
Image at ecx.images-amazon.com http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TH5NFKPEL._SL500_BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg
Ben Scheirman
Contains good examples for box model, selectors, and positioning.
– KMån
But this is a fallacious argument; Cliche Thinking
It's a fallacious argument because HTML tables are layout! The content is the data in the table, the presentation is the table itself. This is why separating CSS from HTML can be very difficult at times. You're not separating content from presentation, you're separating presentation from presentation! A pile of nested divs is no different than a table - it's just a different set of tags.
The other problem with separating the HTML from the CSS is that they need intimate knowledge of one another - you really can't separate them fully. The tag layout in the HTML is tightly coupled with the CSS file no matter what you do.
I think tables vs divs comes down to the needs of your application.
In the application we develop at work, we needed a page layout where the pieces would dynamically size themselves to their content. I spent days trying to get this to work cross-browser with CSS and DIVs and it was a complete nightmare. We switched to tables and it all just worked.
However, we have a very closed audience for our product (we sell a piece of hardware with a web interface) and accessibility issues are not a concern for us. I don't know why screen readers can't deal with tables well, but I guess if that's the way it is then developers have to handle it.
edited Nov 14, 2011 at 20:18
screenreaders deals with tables ok.. It's the way that tables don't deal with screenreaders that's the problem. A table-based layout is prone to present the information in an inaccessible manner. Think about how a right-side navigation would look like. It would be pretty far down the page.
Separation of content from presentation only occurs when the markup is semantic. Most people don't know how to write really semantic mark up, and they also can't present that markup properly with css. That is a failure of the dev, not the technology. I can do it, it's not that hard.
– Pete Michaud
Just because
 or
 have a default presentation in most screen agents, doesn't equate them to being presentation elements instead of semantic elements.
– Mark Brackett
I'm not talking about HTML specifically, I'm talking about conceptually in basic UI design. A table dictates how things are laid out on the screen, i.e. how they are presented to the user. That is presentation.
– 17 of 26
"I spent days trying to get this to work" - if something I'm trying to figure out ever takes more than a couple of hours, I put it to the StackOverflow community. Not knowing how to do something correctly is no excuse for not doing it correctly. Especially when we have all the answers at our fingertips.
– DaveDev
CSS/DIV - it's just jobs for the design boys, isn't it. The hundreds of hours I've spent debugging DIV/CSS issues, searching the Internet to get some part of markup working with an obscure browser - it drives me mad. You make one little change and the whole layout goes horrendously wrong - where on eath is the logic in that. Spending hours moving something 3 pixels this way then something else 2 pixels the other to get them all to line up. This just seems plain wrong to me somehow. Just because you're a purist and something is "not the right thing to do" doesn't mean you should make use of it to the nth degree and under all circumstances, especially if it makes your life 1000 times easier.
So I've finally decided, purely on commercial grounds, although I keep use to minimum, if I anticipate 20 hours work to get a DIV placed correctly, I'll stick in a table. It's wrong, it upsets the purists, but in most cases it costs less time and is cheaper to manage. I can then concentrate on getting the application working as the customer wants, rather than pleasing the purists. They do pay the bills after all and my argument to a manager enforcing the use of CSS/DIV - I would merely point out the customers pay his salary as well!
The only reason all these CSS/DIV arguments occur is because of the shortcoming of CSS in the first place and because the browsers aren't compatible with each other and if they were, half the web designers in the world would be out of a job.
When you design a windows form you don't try moving controls around after you have laid them out so I kind of think it's strange to me why you would you want to do this with a web form. I simply can't understand this logic. Get the layout right to start with and what's the problem. I think it's because designers like to flirt with creativity, whilst application developers are more concerned with actually getting the application working, creating business objects, implementing business rules, working out how bits of customer data relates to each other, ensuring the thing meets the customers requirements - you know - like the real world stuff.
Don't get me wrong, both arguments are valid, but please don't critise developers for choosing an easier, more logical approach to designing forms. We often have more important things to worry about than the correct semantics of using a table over a div.
Case in point - based on this discussion I converted a few existing tds and trs to divs. 45 minutes messing about with it trying to get everything to line up next to each other and I gave up. TDs back in 10 seconds later - works - straight away - on all browsers, nothing more to do. Please try to make me understand - what possible justification do you have for wanting me to do it any other way!
edited Dec 13, 2010 at 17:27
I couldn't agree more with this post. In the 10 years I've been in design, I cannot think of a single time where the argument "we use CSS because it makes sitewide changes easier to manage" played out as accurate.
– Daniel Szabo
know what makes sitewide changes easy to manage? MVC and template systems
– Jiaaro
Please don't get me wrong - I still use CSS but I use it to apply style (colour, background images and so forth) and not layout. CSS seems to be pretty much consistent across browsers when used to control style only. Where it is flawed and falls down in a big way is the way in which layout is both specified and implemented across browsers. Has anyone ever tried to get ASP.NET MasterPages working reliably with DIVs? Its almost impossible!
– Tim Black
Layout should be easy. The fact that there are articles written on how to achieve a dynamic three column layout with header and footer in CSS shows that it is a poor layout system. Of course you can get it to work, but there are literally hundreds of articles online about how to do it. There are pretty much no such articles for a similar layout with tables because it's patently obvious. No matter what you say against tables and in favor of CSS, this one fact undoes it all: a basic three column layout in CSS is often called "The Holy Grail".
If that doesn't make you say "WTF" then you really need to put down the kool-aid now.
I love CSS. It offers amazing styling options and some cool positioning tools, but as a layout engine it is deficient. There needs to be some type of dynamic grid positioning system. A straightforward way to align boxes on multiple axis without knowing their sizes first. I don't give a damn if you call it
 or <gridlayout> or whatever, but this is a basic layout feature that is missing from CSS.
The larger problem is that by not admitting there are missing features, the CSS zealots have been holding CSS back from all it could be. I'd be perfectly happy to stop using tables if CSS provided decent multi-axis grid positioning like basically every other layout engine in the world. (You do realize this problem has already been solved many times in many languages by everyone except the W3C, right? And nobody else denied that such a feature was useful.)
Sigh. Enough venting. Go ahead and stick your head back in the sand.
needlestack
"CSS zealots" (as you put it) are not ignorant of this fact. The next CSS spec has not just one, but two solutions to fix the problems with layouts in CSS. Template Layouts: w3.org/TR/css3-layout And Grid Positioning: w3.org/TR/css3-grid This doesn't introduce competing specs. The 2 specs actually complement each other. As of the time of writing this comment though, no browser implements it, yet.
– Dan Herbert
+1: I completely agree. You shouldn't have to "get it to work" (although I don't like tables either).
– 3lectrologos
This is 100% exactly how I feel. I wish I could upvote you to the top answer.
– bobwienholt
According to 508 compliance (for screen readers for visually impared), tables should only be used to hold data and not for layout as it causes the screen readers to freak out. Or so I've been told.
If you assign names to each of the divs, you can skin them all together using CSS as well. They're just a bit more of a pain to get to sit the way you need them to.
Here's a section of html from a recent project:
<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">

<title>{DYNAMIC(TITLE)}</title>
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;charset=utf-8" />
<meta http-equiv="Content-Style-Type" content="text/css" />
<link rel="stylesheet" type="text/css" href="./styles/base.css" />

And here's that same code as a table based layout.

Navitem

Footer
The only cleanliness I see in that table based layout is the fact that I'm overzealous with my indentation. I'm sure that the content section would have a further two embedded tables.
Another thing to think about: filesizes. I've found that table-based layouts are twice the size of their CSS counterparts usually. On our hig-speed broadband that isn't a huge issue but it is on those with dial up modems.
speed isn't the only thing that is hurt by larger files: many companies pay for bandwidth. If you can cut your client's bandwidth bills in half simply by coding well, that's a great advantage.
– Mr. Shiny and New 安宇
Yeah but don't forget that while the HTML might be twice as large in a CSS-less layout, using a DIV+CSS layout will result in (at least) an extra HTTP Request for the CSS file, plus the bandwidth usage for the file itself.
– goldenratio
But the css file need only be downloaded once, where as the whole table structure is resent on each page request.
You've picked a design well-suited to div+css and shown that it's more verbose in a table-based design? So what: It would be just as easy to create a design that was well-suited to table-based layout and show the hoops you'd have to jump through to replicate it in CSS.
– Draemon
@Draemon: Maybe you'd like to give an example?
I'd like to add that div-based layouts are easer to mantain, evolve, and refactor. Just some changes in the CSS to reorder elements and it is done. From my experience, redesign a layout that uses tables is a nightmare (more if there are nested tables).
Your code also has a meaning from a semantic point of view.
My dream is having a graphic designer which takes the objects/data I provide and put them in a page without I having to care about CSS, DIV, TABLE... :)
– Manrico Corazzi
I second that Manrico - a visual designer that would allow you to construct a layout and define fixed and percentage dimensions and then generate minimal HTML and CSS would be exceedingly useful!
The problem I have with the semantic web concept is that in HTML 4 the vocabulary is very limited and designed for primarily technical documents. Many sites with commercial/marketing goals may have elements which do not fit neatly into this vocabulary. HTML 5 fixes some of this with tags like nav, header, footer but for now we are stuck using tags like span which actually say very little about how the content should be interpreted.
– Nick Van Brunt
No arguments in DIVs favour from me.
I'd say : If the shoe fits, wear it.
It's worth noting that it's difficult if not impossible to find a good DIV+CSS method of rendering contents in two or three columns, that is consistent on all browsers, and still looks just the way I intended.
This tips the balance a bit towards tables in most of my layouts, and altough I feel guilty of using them (dunny why, people just say it's bad so I try to listen to them), in the end , the pragmatic view is it's just easier and faster for me to use TABLEs. I'm not being payed by the hour, so tables are cheaper for me.
Radu094
if you want to create a two or three column website with divs+css that works in all browsers, you should by all means do not start from scratch. There are many barebone templates available from the web which you can use as a base. Those are usually optimized to displya correctly in all browsers ie6+
– arturh
CSS layouts are generally much better for accessibility, provided the content comes in a natural order and makes sense without a stylesheet. And it's not just screen readers that struggle with table-based layouts: they also make it much harder for mobile browsers to render a page properly.
Also, with a div-based layout you can very easily do cool things with a print stylesheet such as excluding headers, footers and navigation from printed pages - I think it would be impossible, or at least much more difficult, to do that with a table-based layout.
If you're doubting that separation of content from layout is easier with divs than with tables, take a look at the div-based HTML at CSS Zen Garden, see how changing the stylesheets can drastically change the layout, and think about whether you could achieve the same variety of layouts if the HTML was table based... If you're doing a table-based layout, you're unlikely to be using CSS to control all the spacing and padding in the cells (if you were, you'd almost certainly find it easier to use floating divs etc. in the first place). Without using CSS to control all that, and because of the fact that tables specify the left-to-right and top-to bottom order of things in the HTML, tables tend to mean that your layout becomes very much fixed in the HTML.
Realistically I think it's very hard to completely change the layout of a div-and-CSS-based design without changing the divs a bit. However, with a div-and-CSS-based layout it's much easier to tweak things like the spacing between various blocks, and their relative sizes.
The fact that this is a hotly debated question is a testament to the failure of the W3C to anticipate the diversity of layout designs which would be attempted. Using divs+css for semantically-friendly layout is a great concept, but the details of implementation are so flawed that they actually limit creative freedom.
I attempted to switch one of our company's sites from tables to divs, and it was such a headache that I totally scrapped the hours of work I had poured into it and went back to tables. Trying to wrestle with my divs in order to gain control of vertical alignment has cursed me with major psychological issues that I will never shake as long as this debate rages on.
The fact that people must frequently come up with complex and ugly workarounds to accomplish simple design goals (such as vertical alignment) strongly suggests that the rules are not nearly flexible enough. If the specs ARE sufficient, then why do high-profile sites (like SO) find it necessary to bend the rules using tables and other workarounds?
answered Aug 9, 2010 at 13:10
DLH
I guess it's true that using the table element for layout has little to do with tabular data. So what? Does my boss care? Do my users care?
Google and other automated systems do care, and they're just as important in many situations. Semantic code is easier for a non-intelligent system to parse and process.
ceejayoz
Yeah, for example for blogs the engine separate the comments from the blog post. Imagine the layout was styled with tables..
– Omar Abid
-1: Google absolutely does not care in the slightest if you use tables for layout.
– Tom Anderson
@Tom Anderson Not because they have an issue with using tables for layout, but simply because non-table HTML tends to be more semantic.
– ceejayoz
Having had to work with a website that involved 6 layers of nested tables generated by some application, and having had it generate invalid HTML, it was in fact a 3 hour job to rectify it breaking for a minor change.
This is of course the edge case, but table based design is unmaintainable. If you use css, you separate the style out so when fixing the HTML you have less to worry about breaking.
Also, try this with JavaScript. Move a single table cell from one place to another place in another table. Rather complicated to perform where div/span would just work copy-paste-wise.
"Does my boss care"
If I were your boss. You would care. ;) If you value your life.
Kent Fredric
Having had to work with a website that had an enormous soup of span and div tags and having witnessed the fragility of it when changing a single element would break the whole page (and divs used instead of heading tags)...
Using Div's doesn't obviously make your code magically nicer. Much is to be said for appropriate semantic use of tags.
– Kent Fredric
Layout flexibility
Imagine you're making a page with a large number of thumbnails.
DIVs:
If you put each thumbnail in a DIV, floated left, maybe 10 of them fit on a row. Make the window narrower, and BAM - it's 6 on a row, or 2, or however many fit.
You have to explicitly say how many cells are in a row. If the window is too narrow, the user has to scroll horizontally.
Same situation as above. Now you want to add three thumbnails to the third row.
Add them in. The layout will automatically adjust.
TABLE: Paste the new cells into the third row. Oops! Now there are too many items there. Cut some from that row and put them on the fourth row. Now there are too many items there. Cut some from that row... (etc)
(Of course, if you're generating the rows and cells with server-side scripting, this probably won't be an issue.)
I think that boat has sailed. If you look at the direction the industry has taken you will notice that CSS and Open Standards are the winners of that discussion. Which in turn means for most html work, with the exception of forms, the designers will use divs instead of tables. I have a hard time with that because I am not a CSS guru but thats the way it is.
Thomas Wagner
Also, don't forget, tables don't quite render well on mobile browsers. Sure, the iPhone has a kick-ass browser but everyone doesn't have an iPhone. Table rendering can be peanuts for modern browsers, but it's a bunch of watermelons for mobile browsers.
I have personally found that many people use too many
 tags, but in moderation, it can be extremely clean and easy to read. You mention that folks have a harder time reading CSS than tables; in terms of 'code' that maybe true; but in terms of reading content (view > source) it is a heck of a lot easier to understand the structure with stylesheets than with tables.
Good point you have there; but IMHO the UI for mobile devices should be completely different taking into account the input limitations.
True; which is why I've started using a different approach at times. In the MVC model, have my view pop-out just XML raw data i.e. content. Then begin with another MVC model where the xml raw data = model; view = html/css; controller = xsl. The XSL stylesheet purges unnecessary data for mobile.
– Swati
Looks like you are just used to tables and that's it. Putting layout in a table limits you for just that layout. With CSS you can move bits around, take a look at http://csszengarden.com/ And no, layout does not usally require a lot of nested divs.
With no tables for layout and proper semantics HTML is much cleaner, hence easier to read. Why should someone who cannot understand CSS try to read it? And if someone considers himself to be webdeveloper then the good grasp of CSS is a must.
SEO benefits come from the ability to have most important content higher up the page and having better content-to-markup ratio.
http://www.hotdesign.com/seybold/
508 Compliance - the ability for a screenreader to make sense of your markup.
Waiting for render - tables don't render in the browser until it gets to the end of the
 element.
Rick Glos
I remember creating enormous tables years ago, back in the days of slower computers, and I remember when the code came in that made them render as you went. IE6? IE4? Can't remember, but it certainly did change. Of course, this is useful for tabulated data, but layout tables are styled to within an inch of their lives, so perhaps progressive rendering would be less useful as the table jumps around to accommodate the newly loaded content.
– ijw
The whole idea around semantic markup is the separation of markup and presentation, which includes layout.
Div's aren't replacing tables, they have their own use in separating content into blocks of related content (, ). When you don't have the skills and are relying on tables, you'll often have to separate your content in to cells in order to get the desired layout, but you wont need to touch the markup to achieve presentation when using semantic markup. This is really important when the markup is being generated rather than static pages.
Developers need to stop providing markup that implies layout so that those of us who do have the skills to present content can get on with our jobs, and developers don't have to come back to their code to make changes when presentation needs change.
Steve Perks
This isn't really about whether 'divs are better than tables for layout'. Someone who understands CSS can duplicate any design using 'layout tables' pretty straightforwardly. The real win is using HTML elements for what they are there for. The reason you would not use tables for non-tablular data is the same reason you don't store integers as character strings - technology works much more easily when you use it for the purpose for which it is desgined. If it was ever necessary to use tables for layout (because of browser shortcomings in the early 1990s) it certainly isn't now.
domgblackwell
Tools that use table layouts can become extraordinarily heavy due to the amount of code required to create the layout. SAP's Netweaver Portal by default uses TABLE to layout their pages.
The production SAP portal at my current gig has a home page whose HTML weighs over 60K and goes seven tables deep, three times within the page. Add in the Javascript, the misuse of 16 iframes with similar table issues inside of them, overly heavy CSS etc, and the page weighs over 5MB.
Taking the time to lower the page weight so you can use your bandwidth to do engaging activities with users is worth the effort.
Mike Cornell
It's worth figuring out CSS and divs so the central content column loads and renders before the sidebar in a page layout. But if you are struggling to use floating divs to vertically align a logo with some sponsorship text, just use the table and move on with life. The Zen garden religion just doesn't give much bang for the buck.
The idea of separating content from presentation is to partition the application so different kinds of work affect different blocks of code. This is actually about change management. But coding standards can only examine the present state of code in a superficial manner.
The change log for an application that depends on coding standards to "separate content from presentation" will show a pattern of parallel changes across vertical silos. If a change to "content" is always accompanied by a change to "presentation", how successful is the partitioning?
If you really want to partition your code productively, use Subversion and review your change logs. Then use the simplest coding techniques -- divs, tables, JavaScript, includes, functions, objects, continuations, whatever -- to structure the application so that the changes fit in a simple and comfortable manner.
Patrick May
+1 for the first two sentences.
– Sean McMillan
Because it's HELL to maintain a site that uses tables, and takes a LOT longer to code. If you're scared of floating divs, go take a course in them. They're not difficult to understand and they're approximately 100 times more efficient and a million times less a pain in the ass (unless you don't understand them -- but hey, welcome to the world of computers).
Anyone considering doing their layout with a table better not expect me to maintain it. It's the most ass-backwards way to render a website. Thank god we have a much better alternative now. I would NEVER go back.
It's scary that some folks might not be aware of the time and energy benefits from creating a site using modern tools.
Chuck Le Butt
Tables are not in general easier or more maintainable than CSS. However, there are a few specific layout-problems where tables are indeed the simplest and most flexible solution.
CSS is clearly preferable in cases where presentational markup and CSS support the same kind of design, no one in their right mind would argue that font-tags are better than specifying typography in CSS, since CSS gives you the same power than font-tags, but in a much cleaner way.
The issue with tables, however, is basically that the table-layout model in CSS is not supported in Microsoft Internet Explorer. Tables and CSS are therefore not equivalent in power. The missing part is the grid-like behavior of tables, where the edges of cells align both vertically and horizontally, while cells still expand to contain their content. This behavior is not easy to achieve in pure CSS without hardcoding some dimensions, which makes the design rigid and brittle (as long as we have to support Internet Explorer - in other browsers this is easliy achieved by using display:table-cell).
So it's not really a question of whether tables or CSS is preferable, but it is a question of recognizing the specific cases where use of tables may make the layout more flexible.
The most important reason for not using tables is accessibility. The Web Content Accessibility Guidelines http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/ advice againt using tables for layout. If you are concerned about accessibility (and in some cases you may be legally obliged to), you should use CSS even if tables are simpler. Note that you can always create the same layout with CSS as with tables, it might just require more work.
JacquesB
I was surprised to see some issues were not already covered, so here are my 2 cents, in addition to all the very valid points made earlier:
.1. CSS & SEO:
a) CSS used to have a very significant impact on SEO by allowing to position the content in the page wherever you want. A few years ago, Search Engines were giving a significant emphasis to "on-page" factors. Something at the top of the page was deemed more relevant to the page than something located at the bottom. "Top of the page" for a spider meant "at the beginning of the code". Using CSS, you could organize your keyword-rich content at the beginning of the code, and still position it wherever you liked in the page. This is still somewhat relevant, but on page factors are less and less important for page ranking.
b) When the layout is moved over to CSS, the HTML page is lighter and therefore loads faster for a search engine spider. (spiders don't bother downloading external css files). Fast loading pages is an important ranking consideration for several search engines, including Google
c) SEO work often requires testing and changing things, which is much more convenient with a CSS based layout
.2. Generated content:
A table is considerably easier to generate programmically than the equivalent CSS layout.
foreach ($comment as $key=>$value)
echo "
$key	$value
";
Generating a table is simple and safe. It is self-contained and integrates well within any template. To do the same with CSS is considerably harder and may be of no benefit at all: hard to edit the CSS stylesheet on the flight, and adding the style inline is no different from using a table (content is not separated from layout).
Further, when a table is generated, the content (in variables) is already separated from the layout (in code), making it as easy to modify.
This is one reason why some very well designed websites (SO for instance) still use table layouts.
Of course, if the results need to be acted upon through JavaScript, divs are worth the trouble.
.3. Quick conversion testing
When figuring out what works for a specific audience, it is useful to be able to change the layout in various ways to figure out what gets the best results. A CSS based layout makes things considerably easier
.4. Different solutions for different problems
Layout tables are usually dissed because "everybody knows divs & CSS" are the way to go.
However the fact remains that tables are faster to create, easier to understand and are more robust than most CSS layouts. (Yes, CSS can be as robust, but a quick look through the net on different browsers and screen resolutions shows it's not often the case)
There are a lot of downsides to tables, including maintenance, lack of flexibility... but let's not throw the baby with the bath water. There are plenty of professional uses for a solution which is both quick and reliable.
Some time ago, I had to rewrite a clean and simple CSS layout using tables because a significant portion of the users would be using an older version of IE with really bad support for CSS
I, for one, am sick and tired of the knee-jerk reaction "Oh noes! Tables for layout!"
As for the "it wasn't intended for that purpose and therefore you shouldn't use it this way" crowd, isn't that hypocrisy? What do you think of all the CSS tricks you have to use to get the darn thing working in most browsers? Were they meant for that purpose?
Sylverdrag
Tables instead of DIVs
Does it make sense to use the
 tag on a "modern" website?
Why _not_ use html tables for layout
Why is using DIVs or spans tags "better" than using a table layout?
Are tables replaced by DIVs?
Is it ok to still use tables?
benefits of tableless design of web pages?
Using table or div
Table-Based Layout vs Div-Based Layout
Tables vs CSS for positioning and design
What are valid values for the id attribute in HTML?
Make a div fill the height of the remaining screen space
Which "href" value should I use for JavaScript links, "#" or "javascript:void(0)"?
Can you do this HTML layout without using tables?
Div width 100% minus fixed amount of pixels
Managing CSS Explosion
What characters can be used for up/down triangle (arrow without stem) for display in HTML?
How can I set the default value for an HTML <select> element?
Why does HTML think "chucknorris" is a color?
lang-html


There is an idiom 'snowball effect'. It refers to a process that metaphorically starts from a state of small significance, but accelerates in size and importance eventually to create a great impact! It is seen that everybody is interested in life-changing moments, but not many realize that it is the small things that add up to create major changes.
There is always room for improvement in everybody. Whether it is learning something new or honing a skill you already have, there are opportunities to get better every day. 'Kaizen', as a concept for business excellence took its origin in Japan. "Kai" = change and "Zen" = good, coalescing into "change for good". In English, Kaizen typically translates into implementing processes for continuous improvement.
Japan, although not blessed with immense natural resources and geographical size, and is plagued with frequent natural calamities; it is one of the most advanced and developed countries of the world. This status of Japan can be attributed to the adoption of the 'principles of Kaizen', apart from their culture itself.
Going back in the history to understand Kaizen - Sakichi Toyoda invented an error-proof wooden loom which involved a mechanism where the machine would stop whenever a thread broke or any kind of anomaly occurred. This prevented errors and defects from the final product! This concept was adopted by the management of Toyota Corporation, which encouraged staff to make suggestions, to learn from failure and make continuous improvement to increase efficiency. So, as a process, the concept can be applied to every industry from management to the workers' level to eliminate waste and achieve highest productivity.
Creative minds get easily bored, they hate rules, think outside the lines, and tend to make lots of mistakes. It is hence said creative minds should not be caged in skeletons. Yet, there should be a 'method to their madness'. Even madness needs a process which can turn wild imagination into reality. Here are 10 principles of Kaizen for the people who need to be creative, professionally!
No idea is a bad idea. Even if the idea is not great in itself, it may ultimately contribute towards your eureka moment.
De-clutter your mind. While new ideas and inspirations are necessary, an excess of redundant specifics and unnecessary details lead to an overload on your creativity and may even hamper it.
Creative minds are bound to make mistakes. Some mistakes are so good that you will want to keep them! Learning which mistake to keep and which ones to discard is a key skill.
Inspiration strikes in the most unusual ways. If there are certain ways you get inspiration, stick to them, removing clutter from your workplace is not essentially applicable to this industry! But removing the clutter from the mind is critical.
Just because a design is new does not mean that it is improved or better. Understanding the requirement and practising the art of optimal usage of elements is important.
Before coming up with a design or any creative aspect, ask yourself the 5Ws and H, i.e., 'Why this design', 'Who are the target audience', 'What are the elements involved in creating the design', 'Where is the design going to be used', 'by When does the client need the creative' – so as to work towards the deadline, 'How are you adding value to your customer's vision with the design'.
Working in silos works for a few, but every time creative minds get together, remember, something extraordinary gets created. Every team member and his designs/ inputs need to be encouraged and valued, for, inspiration can come from anywhere!
A good design doesn't necessarily have to be complicated, and inversely a simple design doesn't always communicate all that it needs to. Understand the requirement and be logical in your designing.
Learn from other people and get some new opinions on things you can add to your creation to continuously learn.
Any change is difficult in the beginning, messy in the middle but fruitful towards the end. Stick to a process sheet from conceptualization to delivery, it can be hard in the beginning but will surely be extremely rewarding, if you stick to it.
It is said, 'today's progress is better than tomorrow's perfection'. Small, incremental changes done as part of everyday life can bring about required bigger changes. Being "good enough" is never the crowning achievement, our actions, processes and decisions must be improved continuously, striving for progress, innovation and perfection.


'Best Overall App' went to Nintex Workflow for Office 365, and Nintex Forms for Office 365 won in Microsoft's category for 'Most Business Value'.
The tech-focused research firm recognises Nintex in its Aragon Research Globe for Digital Business Platforms, 2018.
Most enterprises focus on the customer experience as a key driver of their digital transformation strategy, but the employee experience is just as important.
Workers and field data come together to reduce service disruptions, improve operational effectiveness and mitigate risk.
The fourth wave of business process automation incorporates artificial intelligence.
Processes that don't work impact on your company's bottom line.
Combining structured and unstructured data often proves a roadblock to content management. But this doesn't have to be the case.


text:
How artists are using social media to bring the everyday to life
Simona Terrone, Alison Rachael, Hazel Mead, and Roza Nozari are celebrating the little things that make the ordinary extraordinary
By Elspeth Walker
Social media is the powerhouse of this technological age, a constant stream of things to read, see, and interact with. For many it's a platform of expression and over the past few years there has been a rise in artists, especially illustrators or graphic designers, turning to platforms such as Instagram or Twitter to post their work and promote their messages. Many of these artists that come up on our news feeds or timelines have recognised that, not only can more people can see their work online, propelling their artistic career forward, but that it is also a platform for creating social change.
A piece of artwork can have many meanings and art has often raised the questions: what and why? This is true for the many shapes and mediums it comes in: painting, sculpture, and photography, to name a few. Yet, with the constant stream of images online and offline, we can become overstimulated and expect the extraordinary all the time, while losing an appreciation of the everyday.
"With the constant stream of images online and offline, we can become overstimulated and expect the extraordinary all the time..."
This is something that a wave of new artists are bringing back, using social media to share their work and posting images that appreciate the little things. Here are four artists who are bringing the everyday to life…
Simona Terrone
The Bulb Girl, aka Simona Terrone, is an illustrator whose work focuses on the female form through characteristic lightbulb heads, with her work ranging from a bulb girl version of the super hero Wonder Woman to the bulb girl relaxing at home. With nipples replaced with switches, it allows Terrone to create an expression of the female figure without the limitations of censorship on the internet and the categorisation of what a 'woman' should be. The work started as an exploration of women and their 'inner light' – such as the moments that make one shine. Terrone recognises that different people can identify as a woman in different ways, and are 'set alight' by different things.
What resonates the most in Terrone's work are the images that catch the more 'everyday' moments in our lives. Discharging Ideas – a drawing depicting a figure on the toilet scrolling on their phone, and How to switch off your bulb – a drawing about winding down, reading a book, and having a cuppa, are two that especially seem to empower the 'everyday'. Her Instagram page collates all these images together to create an almost exhibition-like compilation of her perception of womanhood. The extraordinary next to the everyday shows how we should celebrate the little things, such as having a day at home, relaxing outside, or even checking our phones, reflecting that you needn't be living a 'celebrity' or 'extravagant' lifestyle to be comfortable and happy. Through the everyday, you can find your inner light.
Alison Rachel
Known for her zines, book, and Instagram feed called Recipes for Self-Love, Alison Rachel is one of the growing artists that is worth a follow to ground your social media scrolling, thanks to her inspirational quotes and images of the everyday. Her work is unique as it combines both phrases or 'recipes' for self-love, with illustrations of different women.
In her illustrations you can find women who reflect the diverse society we live in, equalising everyone's right to self-love. Her words are also not out of reach, they seek to comfort and inspire each person who reads them. Through bitesize phrases or statements, the work is a healthy addition that can help empower our inner and external voices.
Hazel Mead
The normalisation of everyday practises is also seen in the work of Hazel Mead. Gaining a strong following over the past few years, she says she found her voice in feminist and activist illustration. Her work sheds light on the reality of many interactions we have on a daily basis, especially those which films or the media can often romanticise.
This is especially true when it comes to sex. Hazel's work seeks to normalise the so-called clunky or awkward moments during sex, exploring more than the mainstream positions we are taught in school and promoting a more diverse sex education programme. By demystifying ideals portrayed in romcoms and porn, Hazel's work shows that there is a home for the reality of sexual encounters, the rough, the smooth, and everything in between – all of which deserve a celebration. These illustrations create a space to show off the reality of the everyday, and shows how other media channels present an idyllic view of sex and relationships.
Roza Nozari
In the work by Roza Nozari, aka Yallaroza, there is a sense of solace and comfort in everyday emotions. Similarly to Alison Rachel, she combines illustrations and text to convey supportive messages and she also uses speech or thought bubbles, adding a personal touch. This, accompanied by images where figures embrace each other, creates an uplifting atmosphere in her work.
Yallaroza's work also depicts the subtle 'smaller' moments in life, such as taking the time for a bath or allowing yourself to eat that tub of ice-cream. The calmness of her work is a reminder to take each day as it comes, allowing both the 'big' and 'small' matters to mingle, and that celebrating these moments are necessary each day.
Each one of these illustrators, and countless others, are what keep social media platforms grounded. They create a safe space to share illustrations about the everyday, and can provide an uplifting tone for your feed. This helps to create a more inclusive space in the art world, where most people can see themselves reflected in the works and feel empowered by the little actions they take each day.
Elspeth Walker
Exploring the mysterious life and work of Madge Gill
How artists using AI can reconnect us to ourselves
Celebrating the feminists of the Futurist movement

redpajama_set_name: RedPajamaCommonCrawl


My latest article is now on The Humanist (first published 15 May 2017). Below is an excerpt.
In his latest podcast episode titled "Forbidden Knowledge," atheist author Sam Harris guides political scientist Charles Murray through an extensive defence of Murray's widely debunked body of work, focusing mostly on The Bell Curve. Co-authored with psychologist Richard Herrnstein (who died around the time it was published in 1994), the book was universally critiqued as an example of modern-day scientific racism.
The Bell Curve was founded on a flawed premise that inferred a correlation between intelligence, socio-economic achievement, and genetics, without accounting for the effects of discrimination. The research was funded by the eugenics-promoting Pioneer Fund, while academics like Stephen Jay Gould showed that The Bell Curve obscured data.
Harris's characterizations of Murray's critics are a projection of the push back he feels he's unfairly faced. "You were one of the canaries in the coal mines," Harris tells Murray. Having previously dismissed Murray, Harris now feels an affinity due to facing rebuke for racism (while continuing to espouse similar views).
The atheist movement has changed. Once the almost-exclusive domain of White men, calls for equality have challenged conversations, as diverse groups of women and minorities seek a more inclusive vision for atheism. It is telling that aggrieved White men feel more comfortable hosting uncritical discussions on scientific racism than engaging in anti-racism practices to reform the movement.
This article was first published in April 2012 by the Taylor & Francis journal, Intercultural Education.
International students represent a large economic and international relations investment for Australia. Australian universities are increasingly relying upon overseas students for their revenue, but these institutions are not adequately addressing the special learning, linguistic, cultural and religious needs of these students. Despite their Australian education, international students experience various difficulties in finding work in their field of study after they graduate. Poor English-language, communication and problem-solving skills are the biggest obstacles to securing ongoing and satisfying jobs. Employer biases regarding international students are equally a problem. This paper provides a demographic context of the international student population in Australia and it also addresses the gaps impeding their full social participation in Australian educational institutions. This paper argues that a stronger focus on the socialisation of international students is likely to increase their educational and career satisfaction. Educational providers would better serve international students by focusing on practical learning, career-planning and reinforcing the social and cultural skills valued by Australian employers.
Los estudiantes internacionales representan una gran inversión económica así como de relaciones internacionales para Australia. Las universidades Australianas dependen financieramente cada vez mas del ingreso de estudiantes de ultramar, sin embargo no responden adecuadamente a las necesidades culturales, lingüísticas y religiosas de estos estudiantes. No obstante su formación universitaria, los estudiantes internacionales encuentran barreras para la obtención de empleo en su campo profesional luego de su graduación en universidades australianas. Este artículo presenta el contexto demográfico general de la población estudiantil internacional en Australia e identifica las barreras para su integración social. El argumento central en el presente artículo es que una mayor atención a la organización social de estos estudiantes puede no solamente mejorar su satisfacción educacional sino también profesional. Las instituciones educativas Australianas podrían ofrecer mejores servicios a los estudiantes internacionales si avocaran recursos para el entrenamiento de habilidades prácticas que ayudaran a estos estudiantes a planear su carrera y mejorar sus capacidades sociales y culturales.
Keywords: international students; intercultural learning; employment; Australian labour market; graduate career planning.


A creamy soup can hit the spot, but a big bowl can cost hundreds of calories and more saturated fat than you need in a day. All that, and that big bowl may have way less protein than you'd expect from a dish with "chicken" in its name. Luckily, you can turn to BariatricPal Cream of Chicken Soup Mix with only 80 calories and no fat, and a satisfying 15 grams of protein. Serve it on its own, or add extra chicken for extra protein or veggies for extra fiber without excessive calories.
BariatricPal Soup is your mealtime solution. Just add water and enjoy your instant high-protein soup in minutes using the stove or microwave. BariatricPal Cream of Chicken Soup Mix provides comfort and nourishment without extra fat and calories. Each pre-portioned serving has only 80 calories and almost no fat! It can make you feel better pre-op, post-op, and as you lose weight while giving you the protein you need. 7 packets per box.
Empty contents of one packet into a bowl. Add 6-7 oz (190 - 220 ml) of boiling water while stirring continuously.


Tickets are selling fast for Sussex's clash with Australia at The 1st Central County Ground, under the floodlights on Thursday 7th June!
Demand for the opportunity to see the likes of Jofra Archer, George Garton, Chris Jordan and Luke Wright go head-to-head with the World Cup winners at Hove is exceptionally high, so avoid disappointment and book your tickets now.
Planning your summer in the sun at Sussex? Purchase a 2018 membership or a T20 Blast Pass to be part of the action in Hove.


text:
Front Matter A New Order of Things Antiochus Menelaus At Antioch The Wrath to Come The Evil Days The Darkness Thickens Shallum the Wine-Seller The Persecution In the Mountains New Bad and Good The Patriot Army Guerilla Warfare in the Mountains The Burial of Mattathias The Sword of Apollonius New From the Battle-Field The Battle of Emmaus The Battle of Beth-zur In Jerusalem The Cleansing of the Temple The Dedication of the Temple Wars and Rumours of Wars More Victories The Sabbatical Year Reverses Light Out of Darkness A Peaceful Interval Hopes and Fears Civil War Nicanor The Falling Away The Last Battle The Hope of Israel
Hammer - Alfred J. Church
A few weeks after the conversation recorded in the last chapter, Ruth was hearing her little boy repeat the Commandment when Seraiah came in, carrying in his hand an open letter.
"There is news from Syria," he said.
"And is it good or bad?" asked his wife.
"That I can hardly say," was Seraiah's reply. At the same time he signalled to his wife that she should take the child out of the room. The signal, however, was too late. The quick-witted little fellow had heard what had been said, and immediately jumped to the conclusion that something had been heard about the boy-King. His mind was occupied, it might almost be said, day and night with the thought of the young Eupator. He scarcely knew whether he hated or loved him; but the brilliant figure of the lad had caught his imagination. He lived, as imaginative children often will, a sort of second life in thinking of him.
"Oh! father," he now cried, "I am sure that you have something to tell me about the boy-King. Is he coming here again? I should like to see him, though he did break his promise so shamefully."
"My boy," said his father, "you will never see him again."
"Oh! Why?"
"He is dead. This letter tells me all about him."
The boy burst into a passionate fit of tears, which all his mother's caresses and attempts at consolation were for some time unable to stop. When the violence of his grief had spent itself he said—
"Oh! father, tell me about him. Were they very cruel to him? And how did it happen? I thought that kings killed people, but I did not know that any one could kill them."
"Listen, my child, and I will try to explain it to you. The father of Eupator, the boy who is just dead, was not rightfully King. He came after his elder brother, and this elder brother had a son named Demetrius, who ought to have succeeded his father. But this son had been sent to Rome as a hostage."
"What do you mean by a hostage, father?"
"When you are going to trust some one about whom whom you do not feel quite sure, you take something from him that he values very much, and say, 'You will lose this unless you behave well.' So Demetrius's father gave his son to the Romans to keep, and the Romans were sure that as long as they had the child his father would not do anything that they did not like. Well, as I told you, Demetrius was sent to Rome to be security for his father's good behaviour, and there he lived all the time that Antiochus, whom they called Epiphanes, was King. And when Epiphanes died Demetrius asked the Romans to let him go, that he might claim the kingdom which, he said, belonged to him and which his cousin Eupator was too young to be able to govern. But they would not let him go, and I have been told that Lysias bribed some of the chief men among them, and these persuaded the rest. At last he got tired of waiting for leave, and he ran away from Rome without it, and landed at a place called Tripolis, not very far from Antioch, with only twenty or thirty men with him. But as soon as ever the soldiers at Antioch heard of his coming, they declared that they would have him for their King."
"But why?" put in Daniel.
"Well, if they did not know much that was good about him, they knew nothing that was bad. Anyhow they all rose in his favour; and they seized the young King and Lysias the Governor and brought them to him, and asked him what they should do with them. He would not say, 'Kill them,' for, after all, the little boy was his cousin, and had not done him any harm. And he did not like to say, 'Keep them alive,' for he was afraid that his cousin might some day have his throne; so he only said to the soldiers, 'Take care that they do not see my face.' So the soldiers—they were the young King's own guard—took him and killed him, and Lysias with him."
When he had heard this the child allowed his mother to take him away. He saw that his father, usually so calm, was anxious and troubled, and, wise with a wisdom beyond his years—the fruit of the troubled life which he and his had been leading—would not ask him any more questions. But that night, when his mother came to give him the last kiss before he went to sleep, he had many things to say to her. Poor little fellow! he had seen many terrible sights, which all his parents' care could not keep from his eyes, and had heard of many more, and he could not help asking again, "Did they hurt him very much?" and when she had comforted him as best she could on this score, he showed that there was another trouble in his mind. "Oh! mother," he said, "do you remember that when he ordered the walls of the fortress to be pulled down, I prayed to God that he might be punished for breaking his promise? and only the other day, when Joseph was talking about his coming back, I said—something in me seemed to make me say it almost without my knowing—'He shall fall by the sword in his own land.' And now he is punished, for he has fallen by the sword. Do you think that God listened to me, and did it because I said these things? But, mother, I did not hate him very much; sometimes I used to think I loved him; and oh! it would be dreadful to think that I had anything to do with his being killed!"
"My son," said Ruth, "do you remember what our father Abraham said, 'Shall not the judge of all the earth do right'?"
"Yes, mother, I am sure that He will do right; and the King did deserve to be punished. But perhaps his counsellors told him to do it; and I am sure that if I was told to do something that was wrong by people that I loved, I should be very likely to do it."
When his mother came to see him some hours afterwards she found him asleep, but his pillow was wet with tears, and now and then a little sob showed how deeply the trouble had entered into his little heart.
There was trouble in older and wiser hearts than his. The Jews had hoped much from the boy-King. His bad faith in the matter of the Temple fortress they had willingly put down to evil counsellors, and they could not forget that he had given them terms, good beyond all their hopes, when they were in the last extremity. The death of Lysias was a more serious loss. He was the pacificator; to his influence they ascribed the conciliatory policy of the young Antiochus. And now he was gone. Would his death be the signal of a change? Would Demetrius go back to the ways of the mad Antiochus? or had he learnt prudence, if not mercy, from his sojourn among the Romans and the bitter experience of an exile?
Opinion was divided. Some hoped, some feared; but all were resolved that they would never give way, that they would defend to the last drop of their blood the freedom which they had won. Azariah, whose temper of mind had gathered a certain gloom from the unhappy experiences of his life, took a desponding view of the situation. Micah, on the contrary, was cheerful, and he had some strong arguments to back him up.
"Remember," he said to his brother-in-law one day, when the subject had been discussed at some length between them, "that I have had opportunities for forming a judgment which, happily for you, have not come in your way. I once saw much of these Greeks—I am ashamed to remember the time, but still it would be folly not to make use of what I then learnt—and I am sure that that madman Antiochus did not represent what they really feel. You don't know how they despise all barbarians as they call them; and, despising them, they are disposed to let them alone. They don't want us to worship their gods; they think that we are not good enough. But Antiochus was mad with pride and arrogance, and it is not likely that any one else should be found to follow his steps. We may have trouble; indeed I feel sure that we shall; but depend upon it there will not be another such attempt as the madman made to stamp out our religion."
And the tidings that soon after reached Jerusalem from Antioch seemed to justify this forecast. There seemed to be trouble ahead, but it was not trouble of the sort which had brought desolation upon the Holy City. A deputation from that party among the Jews which affected Greek habits and Greek practices had been admitted to the presence of the new King. They had accused Judas, the son of Mattathias, of having driven them from their land, and of being an enemy to the sovereignty of the Greeks. Demetrius had listened to their representations, and had conferred the office of high priest on Alcimus, the leader of the malcontents, and had promised to send a force which would instal him in his office, and at the same time take vengeance on Judas and the Chasidim. This force was to be under the command of Bacchides, one of the most trusted of his counsellors.
A high priest of the stamp of Menelaüs—for such Alcimus was known to be—would be anything but welcome. Probably it would be necessary to resist him and his proceedings by force. Still things were not as bad as they might have been. That King Demetrius should have appointed a high priest at all showed that he was not bent, as Epiphanes had been, on extirpating the Jewish faith. With such doubtful comfort as this assurance could give they were compelled to be satisfied and to await the development of events.


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Nick Jonas Recounts Getting an Unexpected Boner at an Awards Show
As far as embarrassing celebrity stories go, the latest from Nick Jonas is a pretty good one. Equal parts mortifying and entertaining, Jonas recounted the time the after-effects of a weed lollipop lasted longer than he thought they would and wound up giving him an unexpected boner at an awards show.
Jonas launched into the story during Monday night's (June 13) episode of The Tonight Show With Jimmy Fallon, where he admitted he'd never told the story before "for good reason, probably."
Maintaining he doesn't usually accepts weed lollipops from acquaintances, Jonas admits he did take his friend's wife up on the offer after celebrating the release of his then-single.
"I went to bed feeling fine," he said. "I woke up the next day and everything's in slow motion. I'm like, 'Oh no, this is happening, this is real.' Because I had to be up for the Young Hollywood Awards, presenting at the Young Hollywood Awards."
Jonas continued, saying he went back to bed in an attempt to sleep it off, but when he woke up again he started hearing voices while taking a shower. Thankfully, his girlfriend helped him through it and he set off for the Young Hollywood Awards -- where disaster hit once more.
"I'm feeling better and then out of no where, I get a NARB…Look, all men get a NARB from time to time. A NARB is a 'non-apparent reason boner.'"
Jonas was forced to hold his hands in front of his crotch while walking the red carpet, and host Jimmy Fallon dutifully provided photo evidence from the night in question of the "Jealous" singer doing exactly that.
Check out the video above to see Nick Jonas explain away his "non-apparent reason boner."
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Source: Nick Jonas Recounts Getting an Unexpected Boner at an Awards Show
Filed Under: Jimmy Fallon, Nick Jonas
Categories: Celebrity News, Music News, News, Videos


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Published: Jul. 29, 2022 at 11:11 AM EDT
FORT WAYNE, Ind. (WPTA) - Caitlin Dostol and Isaac Sparks are co-owners of Deadstock Vintage on Broadway in Fort Wayne.
Caitlin tells us that her starting this business all happened so suddenly. She had always considered herself a leader but never specifically thought about being a business owner. Caitlyn says, "I guess everyone kind of dreams about being their own boss and having their own business, but I don't know if that ever really started for me until a couple months before we even started our Instagram page which was before we open the shop." She tell us that it was when she met Isaac, her now boyfriend of five years, that she fell in love with vintage clothing and decided to join the path of entrepreneurship.
Here's how Issac told us they got started, "Last summer we were in the house a lot and got real bored and I said "I think I want to start another vintage page, I think we should really try and get out it". Then we went to a few different thrift and conventions and bought a bunch of stuff there and sold a bunch of stuff there." He added, "We got our inventory up and that's all we started selling on our Instagram and Morrison came to us about starting the shop and we have some money saved up for the house and we'd rather have the shop in the house so we went and did that."
As everyone starts their businesses at different ages and stages, both Isaac and Caitlin gave some advice for anyone entrepreneurial journey. "We both loss some friends through this process and you just have to realize that the biggest piece is that the people around you have to help you and lift you up. Try not to procrastinate when starting a business and have a clear step in your head because baby steps are so much easier for big."
Isaac also shared his two big factors when it comes to the importance of shopping vintage clothing and why he does it. "One is the stainability. There's dumps in the deserts that have hundreds of thousands of pounds of fast action clothing that's being made now, when we have tons of clothing, used, that we could just buy and not have to create more waste for the plant. The other reason is that on any given day, if you put on a vintage T-shirt. Nine times out of 10 you're not going to see someone else with that same Tee. A lot of these shirts are rare so you're not going to see someone else wearing it. I think that's a large part of the appeal."
You can find and shop more of Deadstock Vintage on their Instagram page. Instagram Page @deadstockvintagefw)


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Beaujolais producers unite to stop 'loss of vines'
Jane Anson January 17, 2014
Three major Beaujolais producers have created a joint investment company to buy vineyards in Beaujolais and Beaujolais Villages to guard against the 'worrying loss of vines in the region'.
BCD Développement is a joint project by Boisset Family Wines, Les Vins Georges Duboeuf and Le Cellier de Saint Etienne cooperative.
'The surface area of vines in Beaujolais (pictured) and Beaujolais villages has dropped by 38% over the past 10 years,' Grégory Large, president of the newly-formed BCD Développement, told decanter.com.
'This is a worrying loss of vines caused by a combination of urban sprawl from the city of Lyon and a decade of economic difficulties for local winemakers'.
The stated aim of the new investment company is to 'ensure the long-term future of the 240 producers of the cooperative cellar'. It will operate by buying up vineyards, mainly from producers who are looking to retire and can not currently find buyers.
Purchased vineyards will be under contract to Le Cellier de Saint Etienne, with minimum price and quantity contracts for the grapes guaranteed for five years from négociants Boisset and Duboeuf. Le Cellier de Saint Etienne currently buys grapes from 415ha of vines.
'The average age of winemakers in the region is 55, and many of them expect to pull up their vines if they can not find buyers,' said Large. 'The hope is that with this new company, we can encourage young winemakers to rent vineyards with a guarantee of future income.
'The quality and reputation of Beaujolais wines has begun to see real recognition both in France and export markets, and we hope that by offering security to new entrants, we can build on this.'
The deal might raise concerns among some in the region about the extent of consolidation. However, Anne-Victoire Monrozier, an independent Beaujolais producer who bottles under the brand Miss Vicky Wine, said the deal is potentially of benefit to other small producers.
'The most important is that negociants make a good wine at a fair price to push the region's notoriety up. It's through them that most consumers get to know Beaujolais.'
Dubouef and Boisset are not investors directly in the cooperative cellar, but are shareholders in the property company.
Written by Jane Anson


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novelro·mancen.by Emily Skopov
Emmy Award winning actress Mariette Hartley is recognized as one of the most versatile actresses in the industry. As an enduring star on stage, in five television series, countless television movies, and more than a dozen feature films, Mariette began her career as one of the last performers to be signed to MGM Studios. Her feature film credits span all genres, from Sam Peckingpah's classic "Ride the High Country" and Alfred Hitchocock's "Marnie" to "Encino Man." She was also nominated for a Genie Award (Canada's Oscars) for her role opposite Alan Arkiin in "Improper Channels."
Live theatre was Hartley's first love and she started her career as a protégé of Eva LaGalienne and a member of John Houseman's American Shakespeare Festival. Recent stage appearances include a starring role in the Broadway production of "Cabaret," and the National Tour of the award winning "Copenhagen" which earned her a Helen Hayes Award and the League of American Theatres and Producers National Touring Broadway Award. Earlier this year she thrilled L.A. audiences and critics alike with her one-woman show, "If You Get To Bethlehem You've Gone Too Far." A national tour is in the works. She is currently starring in the world premier of "The 60's" at the Pacific Resident Theatre.
Hartley has appeared in dozens of television shows from "M*A*S*H" and "The Incredible Hulk" to multiple episodes of "Law and Order: SVU" as well as such MOW's as "Silence of the Heart" and "MADD: The Candy Lightner Story." A three-time Clio Award winner for her Polaroid commercials with James Garner, she also hosted the CBS Morning Program and the acclaimed "Healthy Solutions" television series.
One of the country's foremost advocates for the mentally ill, she has spoken before thousands of people to increase public awareness and understanding about this illness, and has been honored by countless organizations for her efforts. She is the national spokesperson for the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, which presented her with its Humanitarian Award for her outstanding work in the field of suicide prevention and research.
Mariette Hartley is also involved with the Center to Prevent Handgun Violence, SOJOURN, M.A.D.D., and she hosted an educational video entitled "How To Stop The One You Love From Drinking And Using Drugs," which is part of Paramount Home Video's ongoing "Strong Families, Safe Families" series. She was also named Outstanding Mother of the Year by the National Mother's Day committee, in Washington D.C.
Her autobiography, "Breaking The Silence" published by Putnam was a best seller in hard cover and paperback. Because of her candor and humor, she is now one of the most highly sought-after motivational speakers in the country. Hartley's accomplishments were recognized with the installation of her star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame.
Max Normane TRACI LORDS
Rita PIA ARTESONA
Hot Guy At Beach KAMALL SHAIKH
Delivery Guy THOMAS KIM
Random Pop WENDY RAE FOWLER
Jake Buckley PAUL JOHANSSON
Homeless Guy DAVE FENNOY
Liza Normane SHERILYN FENN
Nightmare Sperm Bank Narrator ANDREW MORGADO
Nightmare Nurse CLAUDIA CHOI
Marty McCall MARIETTE HARTLEY
Bartender ERIC MARCHBANKS
Too Fellini Pop/Clinic Nurse AASHA DAVIS
Delivery Girl STEFANIE BLYNN
Obstetrician MING LO
Cute Coed CAROLINE MACEY
Swedish Pop LOUISETTE GEISS
Filipina Pop MALIA DAMIAN
Newborn Emma KEATON DIERKS
Maternity Nurse SORINA SAMBULA
1-Year-Old Emma CALI SHELDON
NOELLE SHELDON
4-Year-Old Emma MIKAILA BAUMEL
Isabelle JACQUELINE PIÑOL
Limo Driver JOZE VIVANCO
Carousel Mime MARK BATE
Todd/Kenny TONY LEE
Stunts DONALD RUFFIN
Copyright ©2007 New Angeles Productions|Home


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JAWS II. $450,000 refit including coolers, shafts, cushions, interior, electrical, electronics, plumbing & sanitation. Upgraded Volvo Penta 675 hp D-12's (vs standard 450 hp) with 1200 hours offer 32 knot WOT. Sleeps six. 2 staterooms and 2 heads plus opposing couches in the salon combine into a Queen bed.
Completely restored classic 2002 50′ Viking Princess performance flybridge motor yacht. This model is also called a Viking Sport Cruiser. Newer models are called Princess Yachts.
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