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Tag Archives: Oak View
Part Four: Toys in the Attic
In the last several years, a growing body of scientific evidence has indicated that the air within homes and other buildings can be more seriously polluted than the outdoor air in even the largest and most industrialized cities. This would be exponentially compounded if there were exposure pathways of contaminants from a Superfund site. Other research indicates that people spend approximately 90% of their time indoors. Thus, for many people, the risks to health from exposure to indoor air pollution may be greater than risks from outdoor pollution.
Additionally, people exposed to indoor air pollutants for the longest periods are often those most susceptible to their effects. Such groups include the young, the elderly, and the chronically ill, especially those suffering from respiratory or cardiovascular disease.
According to the "workgroup", there was no data on indoor contamination prior to their 2012 round of indoor testing. "The past health risk from exposures to chlorinated dioxins/furans in the dust of 17 homes near the Koppers facility prior to 2012 is unknown. There was no testing of indoor dust specifically for chlorinated dioxins/furans prior to 2012."
However, there is a massive amount of research on testing attic dust samples for historical loading of contaminants. That means you can utilize attic samples to determine contamination from the past. US EPA has studied the risk of exposure to chemicals in the home resulting from renovation and remodeling activities and has also concluded that an exposure pathway is complete when occupants access the attic space. Houses are designed to breathe. An attic is like a time capsule of a neighborhood's environment.
The ridiculous reason given for not sampling attics was that the "workgroup" felt attics were either non-existent or too small for residents' use. There is absolutely no evidence supporting this, quite the contrary. Who doesn't utilize storage space? And even if people don't access their attics very often, when they do, they could be exposed to higher concentrations of contamination. Residents asked about getting their attics tested but were denied even though it would have filled the gaping hole of unknown past health risk from exposures to chlorinated dioxins/furans in the dust of homes near the Koppers facility prior to 2012. The lame excuse and uncompassionate remedy the "workgroup" offered in the Indoor Contamination Study stated "Because the attics of houses near the Koppers facility are typically small and the amount of time people spend in their attics is limited, the indoor dust workgroup did not recommend EPA test attic dust. Homeowners, however, can always choose to test attic dust at their own expense."
Once again, the burden of proof and the prohibitive expenditure is on the homeowner. Will there be deed restrictions to access attics or to do home renovations in the Stephen Foster neighborhood? The "workgroup" even goes so far as to state, "This report does not, however, address whether the Koppers facility is the only or major source of dioxins in the dust of nearby houses."
So, what does the report address? Seems like the only thing the "workgroup" took plenty of time to do in the report was to try to invalidate the independent indoor tests residents had done that fingerprinted dioxin contamination to the Koppers facility. Beazer East has already said they are not coming back if more contamination is found in the neighborhood, and the City of Gainesville has released them from any legal responsibility, so who do sick and dying residents have to turn to for help? Legal recourse is the only avenue left, but unless you're made of money and can ride out the "stonewall" the responsible party has used successfully for the past thirty years, you're out of luck.
Thanks "Protection Agencies" for analyzing sample data provided by the responsible party to determine how much they would have to clean up the surrounding neighborhoods. Your conclusions really helped…..the responsible party.
Tags: 13th Street, 2 miles, air, Alachua County, Alachua County Health Department, arsenic, attic, banks, blight, cabot/koppers, Cancer, carcinogens, Carol Estates, cercla, chemical, chlorachne, chlorinated, chromate copper arsenate, chromium, clean up, contaminants of concern, contamination, cover-up, CRA, creosote, diabetes, dioxins, Duck Pond, dust, epa, exposure, Family, Fannie Mae, FDOH, fl, Florida, Florida Gators, Florida State Road 441, for sale, foreclosure, Freddie Mac, furan, Gainesville, gainesville realtors association, Gainesville Regional Airport, Gators, greed, habitat for humanity, hazardous waste, health, health risk, heart disease, hexavalent, Homes, houses, Howard Bishop, HUD, human rights, indoor dust test, Koppers, leukemia, Main Street, miscarriage, mutagenic, NE 23rd Ave, nondisclosure, Oak View, Pine Haven, ppt, property, record of decision, redevelopment, remediation, rentals, scandal, soil, Stephen Foster, Stephen Foster Neighborhood Association, Street, superfund, tumor, UF, University Ave, university of florida, USEPA, Waldo Road, Walmart, Wards, water, Wells Fargo
Categories Beazer East, Death, EPA Corruption, Florida, Fraud, Gainesville, Gainesville redevelopment, Koppers, Superfund
Part Three: Workgroup's Indoor Dioxin Study Ignored Two of the Three Exposure Pathways for Contaminants
Only one pathway of exposure was studied in the workgroup's investigation of indoor contamination in the Stephen Foster neighborhood. The tracking in of contaminated outdoor soil which might result in the incidental swallowing of very small amounts of indoor dust. Samples for this pathway were obtained by vacuuming dust from floors. There are two other equally relevant pathways of exposure that also meet all five criteria according to the EPA's pathway of exposure definition that the workgroup failed to study.
Their study "does not address inhalation of indoor dust. Because of the large day to day variation in indoor air quality, the 2011 dioxin dust workgroup (made up of county/state/federal health & environmental agencies, University of Florida toxicologists, 'community leaders', and THE RESPONSIBLE PARTY) did not recommend indoor air testing." Why would a valid toxic exposure pathway not be studied?
"Also, extrapolation of indoor air dioxin levels based on levels in carpets and on floors is too uncertain to accurately assess the health risk from dust inhalation." Why would an indoor AIR test be sampled from carpets or floors? The devil is in the details and makes it much easier to understand this strange choice of a sample area for indoor AIR testing. Because floor dust is tracked in from outside by foot traffic and is the only pathway affected by the outside soil removal undertaken by the responsible party as a clean-up solution. Beazer East, Inc. funded and supplied the EPA with indoor test results of the one and only pathway with a direct tie to the outside soil remediation they were performing.
"This report also does not address skin contact with dioxins in indoor dust. Health scientists know too little about the toxicity of dioxins from skin contact to assess the health risk." But, the workgroup had no problem foraying into uncharted waters when they devoted the bulk of their indoor dioxin study to the brominated dioxins found in homes, even though "health scientists know too little about the toxicity of the brominated dioxins/furans to assess their health risk" and they do not even originate from the Superfund site.
The excuses for not using two ironclad contamination exposure pathways make no sense unless the only pathway of exposure the workgroup wants to consider is the one Beazer East "theoretically" diminished by the replacement of outside soil to the State standard of 7ppt.
The same entities that set the INDOOR dioxin contamination cleanup standard to the unusually high 190 ppt behind closed doors, also decided not to pursue these genuine health risk pathways. So why only use the floor dust as a pathway of exposure, when "Remedial Action Plans (RAPs) should not be approved without a demonstration that ALL relevant pathways have been addressed"? It would be economically catastrophic to Koppers Industries' wallet if a precedent of permanent relocation, or even an area-wide indoor home remediation was initiated here in Gainesville Florida, and would set the dominoes falling throughout their entire empire of Superfund sites (and they have many, all around the world). This is where people's lives get trumped by something called "cost prohibitness". Where there's smoke, there's fire. And when the company in charge of the clean-up is also in charge of determining how much they have to clean, the residents with contaminated homes are being manipulated and marginalized in a real game of life or death. If there was enough contamination outside for a foot of soil to be removed across the entire neighborhood, why are some residents being condemned to live in homes with much higher levels of contamination on the inside?
Tags: 13th Street, 2 miles, air, Alachua County, Alachua County Health Department, arsenic, banks, blight, cabot/koppers, Cancer, carcinogens, Carol Estates, cercla, chemical, chlorachne, chlorinated, chromate copper arsenate, chromium, clean up, contaminants of concern, contamination, cover-up, CRA, creosote, diabetes, dioxins, Duck Pond, dust, epa, exposure, Family, Fannie Mae, FDOH, fl, Florida, Florida Gators, Florida State Road 441, for sale, foreclosure, Freddie Mac, furan, Gainesville, gainesville realtors association, Gainesville Regional Airport, Gators, greed, habitat for humanity, hazardous waste, health, health risk, heart disease, hexavalent, Homes, houses, Howard Bishop, HUD, human rights, indoor dust test, Koppers, leukemia, Main Street, miscarriage, mutagenic, NE 23rd Ave, nondisclosure, Oak View, Pine Haven, ppt, property, record of decision, redevelopment, remediation, rentals, scandal, soil, Stephen Foster, Stephen Foster Neighborhood Association, Street, superfund, tumor, UF, University Ave, university of florida, USEPA, Waldo Road, Walmart, Wards, water, Wells Fargo
Wells-Fargo and other banks are profiting by foreclosing and reselling Cabot-Koppers Superfund site contaminated properties, in Gainesville Florida. Wells-Fargo covers up all evidence of contamination before the resale and does not disclose to the new buyer despite Florida law requiring them to do so.
According to their mission statement, "Wells Fargo's ongoing respect for human rights reflects our vision and values. This effort is done with the understanding that in some circumstances we may go above and beyond what the law and industry standards require. We are dedicated to corporate social responsibility and strive to uphold human rights in all our business activities."
Ignoring this mission statement and families' pleas for assistance out of Gainesville Koppers Arsenic-Dioxin-PAH contaminated homes, Wells-Fargo forecloses on the dangerous properties, continuing their pattern of discriminatory mortgage lending practices. This happens even when attorneys for the residents provide test results of the contamination inside their houses. With the toxic cocktail that tests have fingerprinted to the Koppers Superfund site, some of these homes are more contaminated than a meth house.
The Stephen Foster Neighborhood in Gainesville Florida is subject to an ongoing cycle of exodus and repopulation. When a generation of residents experiences the health effects of toxic exposure and learns about the superfund contamination that banks and realtors failed to disclose to them. Population and property values plummet as homeowners abandon toxic homes to protect their families. Lured by cheap home sales, low income families and rental investors repopulate the neighborhood after banks foreclose and resell the dangerous homes without disclosing the Koppers Superfund Site or the indoor contamination of the surrounding communities.
Because residents are gathering at onsite auctions to protest the resale of highly contaminated homes, banks like Wells-Fargo are resorting to the new tactic of online auctions and live auctions in cities far from where properties are actually located, to shut out the public outcry. Case in point, a before and after of the above property which is one of the most highly contaminated residences in the neighborhood, auctioned off by Wells Fargo with no disclosure as required by Florida law.
The Gainesville City Attorney's recommendation to homebuyers who have unwittingly purchased a Koppers contaminated home without disclosure is to take legal action and file suit as soon as possible to protect your family.
Tags: 13th Street, 2 miles, air, Alachua County, Alachua County Health Department, arsenic, banks, blight, cabot/koppers, Cancer, carcinogens, Carol Estates, cercla, chemical, chlorachne, chlorinated, chromate copper arsenate, chromium, clean up, contaminants of concern, contamination, cover-up, creosote, diabetes, dioxins, Duck Pond, dust, epa, exposure, Family, Fannie Mae, FDOH, fl, Florida, Florida Gators, Florida State Road 441, for sale, foreclosure, Freddie Mac, furan, Gainesville, gainesville realtors association, Gainesville Regional Airport, Gators, greed, habitat for humanity, hazardous waste, health, health risk, heart disease, hexavalent, Homes, houses, Howard Bishop, HUD, human rights, indoor dust test, Koppers, leukemia, Main Street, miscarriage, mutagenic, NE 23rd Ave, nondisclosure, Oak View, Pine Haven, ppt, record of decision, remediation, rentals, scandal, soil, Stephen Foster, Stephen Foster Neighborhood Association, Street, superfund, tumor, UF, University Ave, university of florida, USEPA, Waldo Road, Walmart, Wards, water, Wells Fargo
Part Two: 190 ppt Indoor Dioxin standard guarantees continuing toxic exposure inside homes
Currently, US EPA has no standard safe level criteria for indoor dioxin contamination. A level of 190 ppt was arbitrarily chosen behind closed doors by Beazer East, PGC and other agencies. Other sites have had the inside of nearby residences cleaned up by the responsible party for a median indoor contamination level of 61 ppt. This unscientifically derived number of 190 ppt is over 27 times above Florida's safe level standard for dioxin in residential soil and over 6 times above Florida's safe level standard for dioxin in commercial/industrial soil. And 3 times higher than the level other sites have received indoor cleanups for.
Excerpt from USEPA Indoor Dust Study Data Report May 23 2013:
"The purpose of the sampling was to compare concentrations in household dust that may be related to the former Koppers facility (located at 200 NW 23rdAvenue) to background levels and consider possible actions to reduce exposures. Background samples were taken in homes well away from the Site which would not have been impacted by site contamination. EPA has reviewed the results considering background data and a risk-based screening value. It was determined that no remedial actions are required. The risk-based screening value for dioxin derived by EPA for potential exposure to dust in homes is 190pg/g (ppt) dioxin. (TCDD-TEQ). EPA derived this risk-based screening value for dioxin by utilizing a July 2011 document entitled the Indoor Dust investigation/Interpretation Plan, Stephen Foster Neighborhood, Gainesville, Florida (hereafter referred as "Plan")-which includes exposure assumptions and a toxicity values that were agreed to by the Indoor Dust Dioxin Workgroup convened by the Florida Department of Health made up of federal, County, State and community representatives."
The purpose of the sampling was not to find the dioxins associated to Koppers and remove them, it was to compare "background" samples to Stephen Foster Neighborhood samples and consider possible actions to reduce exposures. No real action involved with that. If SFN samples are close enough to "background" levels, they feel there is no health risk no matter what those dioxin levels are. The inmates are running the asylum. Samples were taken from background homes (vaguely defined as "well away from the site"). In the PGC USEPA Indoor Dioxin Dust Study Report 11-30-2014 "Site and Near Site Properties" are mismarked on the map. They state "given community concern that dust from the Koppers site is widespread, selection of background houses is a critical element of the sampling program. This workgroup, however, was unable to define a particular distance to be considered background." Unable to define background delineation, they plowed ahead with samples from what they called "background houses" as if just calling them that was enough to make it true. Chlorinated dioxins were found in all the background houses, one as high as 77.3 ppt. This indicates the delineation of indoor dioxin contamination goes further than the "background" homes used in the 2012 indoor dioxin testing. Instead of re-testing the background homes with the highest results, they made an assumption the dioxin came from an inside source and just lumped it in with the rest of the results. That's just plain wrong. These chemicals can be molecularly fingerprinted. The entire report is filled with theories, assumptions, and ambiguity. There is no magic force field that stops this Koppers dioxin contaminated dust at 6th Street.
The risk-based screening value of 190 ppt for indoor dioxin was determined using exposure ASSUMPTIONS and toxicity values that were AGREED TO by the workgroup of the "Plan". Since THERE IS NO Florida Department of Environmental Protection (DEP) or USEPA standard FOR INDOOR CONTAMINATION, who set this "acceptable" indoor level of 190 ppt dioxin for Stephen Foster residents? Remember that the Florida outdoor residential Soil Cleanup Target Level (SCTL) is 7 ppt. The Florida outdoor Commercial/Industrial (SCTL) is 30 ppt. It was "representatives from the community" (actually, it was only PGC representing the community-because other community groups were not allowed to participate) and the responsible party (Beazer East, Inc.) that were part of the workgroup the EPA allowed to set this standard. Don't take our word for it. It says so right on the second page of the Indoor Dust Investigation/Interpretation Plan, Stephen Foster Neighborhood, Gainesville, Florida.
"In November 2010, the Florida Department of Health (DOH) formed an indoor dioxin dust workgroup of county, state, and federal agency representatives. The purpose of this workgroup is to develop an indoor dust investigation/ interpretation plan and present it to U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). In March 2011, the workgroup added representatives from the community and the responsible party. The workgroup formulated this plan during several conference calls. "
FDEP and EPA will not cleanup below background levels. If the responsible party can represent background levels of dioxin to be sufficiently high, the comparison difference to near site homes will be decreased and will therefore guarantee no cleanup or assumed health risk in the households of the contaminated area. The standard being not only influenced, but set by the responsible party to an arbitrarily inflated level of 190 ppt for indoor dioxin contamination is an ironclad homerun that seals the deal on no household cleanups or relocation using the test results Beazer East bought. You would think the FDEP and City of Gainesville would want their OWN independent test results to base health risk to citizens, rather than the "test results" force fed by the responsible party who paid their consultants to determine the scope of the contamination they would be responsible for cleaning up. This is much like a judge asking a criminal to choose the punishment for their own crime, and then not batting an eye when it's merely a slap on the wrist.
How dare the FDOP take test results from the responsible party and spend tax dollars and hours and hours working out formulas for cancer slope studies, health risk assumptions, and even toxicity theories for resident grown zucchinis based on German vegetable test results (no zucchini was sampled in the Stephen Foster neighborhood), and then use their sanctified authority to shout out to the public there is no health risk from Koppers contamination like it was based entirely on undisputed fact and not figures supplied by the for-profit company required to clean up the Superfund site.
Don't be deceived. Beazer East, Inc is in the business to make money off the remediation of contaminated sites. The less money they spend on cleanup, the more profit they make. They paid $10 for the nearly 90 acre Koppers site, close to downtown and the University of Florida. The property is tax appraised at almost a million dollars. The EPA accepted an indoor contamination standard of 190 ppt made by the responsible party behind closed doors and expects the affected residents to believe it to be an acceptable health risk. Why should we accept that inflated level when other sites have had nearby residences cleaned up by the responsible party for a median contamination level of 61 ppt. We're tired of "reports" that declare everything is fine and pull out the kitchen sink to discredit toxic trespass from Koppers while using vague language and disassociated facts as its basis. People have died and continue to die from Koppers contamination.
None of the members of PGC live in the affected area. It should also be noted that the President of PGC is a realtor who owns property in the Stephen Foster neighborhood.
Tags: 13th Street, 2 miles, air, Alachua County, Alachua County Health Department, arsenic, cabot/koppers, Cancer, carcinogens, Carol Estates, cercla, chemical, chlorachne, chlorinated, chromate copper arsenate, chromium, clean up, contaminants of concern, contamination, creosote, Debra Heights, diabetes, dioxins, Duck Pond, dust, epa, exposure, Family, Fannie Mae, FDOH, fl, Florida, Florida Gators, Florida State Road 441, fraud, Freddie Mac, furan, Gainesville, gainesville realtors association, Gainesville Regional Airport, Gators, greed, habitat for humanity, hazardous waste, health, health risk, heart disease, hexavalent, Homes, houses, Howard Bishop, HUD, human rights, indoor dust test, Koppers, leukemia, Main Street, miscarriage, mutagenic, NE 23rd Ave, Oak View, Pine Haven, ppt, record of decision, redevelopment, remediation, rentals, scandal, soil, Stephen Foster, Stephen Foster Neighborhood Association, Street, superfund, UF, University Ave, USEPA, Waldo Road, Walmart, Wards, water, Wells Fargo
Categories Fraud, Uncategorized
In response to a "Fact Sheet" that was circulated throughout the Stephen Foster neighborhood by the Protect Gainesville's Citizens group: Dioxins are NOT water soluble. This means PGC's claim that "routine cleaning" will eliminate dioxin contamination from your home is false. The referenced literature PGC uses is for lead contaminated dust, which IS water soluble. Dioxin contaminated dust bonds to substances on a molecular level.
When you clean hard-to-reach areas such as ceiling fan blades, bookshelves, open cabinets, etc, or go into your attic, PLEASE wear a mask and disposable gloves. Dioxins can enter your body through skin pores, ingestion, and inhalation. There are some hypotheses that professional cleaning may reduce the amount of dioxin contaminated dust in treated areas of homes, which explains the rash of Stanley Steemer vans seen in the neighborhood before EPA's 2012 testing.
Also, it's wrong to determine the pathway of contaminated dust to be solely from foot traffic. That's just a convenient way to tie indoor contamination to the remediation of outside soil and pretend the problem is solved. A lot of dioxin contaminated dust enters through windows and attic vents, and then settles throughout the home. This has been going on since the wood treatment plant was in operation for the last 100 years.
Take a look outside at your car. It's covered with pollen and you don't have to park under a tree for that to happen.
In the FDOH Health Consultation:
"CONCLUSION #3 The past health risk from exposures to chlorinated dioxins/furans in the dust of 17 (tested) homes near the Koppers facility prior to 2012 is unknown.
BASIS FOR DECISION #3 There was no testing of indoor dust specifically for chlorinated dioxins/furans prior to 2012."
This lack of data prior to 2012 when the plant was operating leaves a gaping hole in the risk assessment analysis. Attic dust has become increasingly useful for assessing historical emissions of dioxins and other toxic environmental contaminants and could have been sampled to help fill in historical loading. Attic dusts pose a probable health hazard if the dust is disturbed and allowed to plume within the living areas of a dwelling. An attic sample can represent the long-term dynamic accumulation of material that has been influenced for many years by the natural movement of air, penetration of the dust indoors, and the eventual deposition of dust on many surfaces. The major concern is that important household activities and home maintenance may disturb the attic dust (e.g., roof replacement, renovations).
The sole purpose of PGC's "report" is to deny the initial findings of the independent indoor dust testing done by residents in 2010 who were concerned about their safety. That independent testing collected a comprehensive 125 samples as far away as 2 ½ miles from the Superfund site to determine the contamination's drop-off point (there was none found). Because of this independent testing the EPA was shamed into doing its own set of indoor dust samplings later. But rather than doing a comprehensive sample analysis for all the Contaminants of Concern from the Superfund site like arsenic and PAHs, the EPA chose to test only for chlorinated dioxins (associated with Koppers) and brominated dioxins (not associated with Koppers). The EPA's indoor dioxin dust sampling was not done with the intent to accurately access the toxic trespass of contaminates from the Koppers site and evaluate the human risk associated with them. The only reason for their testing was to discredit the original independent testing. The PGC testing continued with this negating premise. As if that isn't enough, residents said they witnessed dilution of the EPA soil samples with clean dirt brought by the sample gatherers.
The context of PGC's "study" is brought in to focus when you read the 99 page report. The bulk of the report concentrates on every other kind of dioxin possible in homes (most extensively brominated), not the chlorinated dioxins from Koppers they should be focusing on. PGC does this because CALUX Bio-assay testing that is not pre-cleaned tends to have higher positive results for dioxin-like compounds than the HRGC/MS method, due to the contribution of brominated or mixed halogenated compounds to the total TEQ of the sample. The 2010 independent testing used a patented clean up method to separate chlorinated and brominated dioxins. It's not that complicated to fingerprint the contamination to Koppers.
It's not only disgraceful, but dangerous that PGC distorts the facts and lies to residents when they help shape policies and have the duty to act as liaison between the EPA and the citizens of Gainesville. All the government grants PGC has received, nearly $150,000 of taxpayer money, should guarantee better research and advice for the residents they are entrusted to inform. Residents' health risks and human rights demand to be taken seriously.
Tags: 2 miles, air, Alachua County, Alachua County Health Department, arsenic, cabot/koppers, Cancer, carcinogens, Carol Estates, chemical, chlorachne, chlorinated, chromate copper arsenate, chromium, clean up, contaminants of concern, contamination, creosote, Debra Heights, diabetes, dioxins, DOH, Duck Pond, dust, epa, exposure, Family, Fannie Mae, fl, Florida, Florida Gators, Florida State Road 441, Freddie Mac, furan, Gainesville, gainesville realtors association, Gainesville Regional Airport, Gators, habitat for humanity, hazardous waste, health, heart disease, hexavalent, Homes, houses, Howard Bishop, HUD, indoor dust test, Koppers, leukemia, Main Street, miscarriage, mutagenic, Oak View, PGC, remediation, soil, Stephen Foster, Stephen Foster Neighborhood Association, superfund, UF, University Ave, USEPA, Waldo Road, Walmart, Wards, water, Wells Fargo
Categories Beazer East, Death, EPA Corruption, Florida, Fraud, Gainesville, Gainesville redevelopment, Koppers, Superfund, Uncategorized
City's Superfund Cost Recovery Another Failure
Some preliminary work on infrastructure in the Stephen Foster neighborhood. This property is contaminated and did not have topsoil replacement. No precautions were taken during this digging.
The City of Gainesville recently settled with Beazer East for less than half of the city's original cost-recovery claims regarding the Koppers Superfund site. Out of approximately $1.8M tax-payer money spent, Gainesville now stands to recoup a paltry $674,500. In return, the city agreed to release Beazer East from any and all cost recovery claims related to Koppers contamination. This latest example of the City of Gainesville's nonexistent business acumen brings to mind the disastrous, money-losing biomass plant negotiations. Once again, the tax-payers are on the hook to pay the rest of the bill for a slick multi-national multi-billion dollar corporation. And, once again, public and environmental health is sacrificed by this City Commission who repeatedly put Beazer East's bottom line over the welfare of its own citizens. During the meeting, Commissioner Wells remarked that the city had expected Beazer East to have done some of the improvements to the infrastructure in the remediation area as part of the cleanup. So in actuality, the city is using the settlement money to do what Beazer East was supposed to do before paying the cost-recovery claim. Sounds like a total loss for the city's coffers.
The one shining beacon in last Thursday's Commission meeting was when Mayor Braddy brought up the alternate consideration of using the settlement money to help relocate contaminated households. This suggestion was immediately discarded by a unanimous vote in favor of spending the settlement money to replace water lines and repave roads in areas of Stephen Foster Neighborhood where some properties had topsoil replacement. When will this idea of relocation be re-visited or developed? Not only does the Commission's decision have no immediate benefit to the sick and dying residents in the area, it actually adds to their suffering by exposing more contaminated soil during the reconstruction process.
While replacing the infrastructure, city workers are being exposed to more contaminated soil that was not replaced. What kind of employee health plan does the city offer? And how does the city plan to keep toxic soil disturbed by this activity from recontaminating newly remediated properties? Beazer East has already said it won't be coming back if more contamination surfaces, and now the city has negotiated away any legal recourse it may have had.
There is another less tangible and more sinister side to this "reinvestment" to infrastructure in the offsite remediation zone: it benefits non-resident property investors looking to make a killing when the redevelopment occurs. In fact, plans are already underway for onsite redevelopment at this very moment. No need to update roads and water works when the city (taxpayers) has already done it, and paid for it. Greedy sharks are circling while toxic trespass gets a beautification band-aid.
Tags: abc news, agent orange, ai, air pollution, al, Alachua County, Alachua County Property Appraiser, Aljazeera, amec, antimony, apartments, ar, arsenic, Bank of America, Beazer East, boycott wells fargo, brain, cabot koppers, cancer cluster, Carl Hiassen, Carol Estates, charter schools, chemical contamination, chloracne, chromated copper arsenate, City Commission, City of Gainesville, college board, college majors 101, corelogic, creosote lagoons, Dallas News, danger, diabetes, diluted soil samples, Elwood Realty, environmental justice, escambia superfund site, European Journal, evacuation, facelift, falsified test results, Fannie Mae, floridan aquifer, for sale by owner, Freddie Mac, gacar, gainesville realtors association, Genesis Preparatory School, Glasgow Daily Times, GOOD MORNING AMERICA, harassment, hazardous waste, headaches, health warning, heart disease, hexavalent chromium, homes for sale, John Stumpf, keller williams, Koppers, koppers class action, koppers gainesville, lead, leukemia, Love Canal, Matchmaker Realty, Miami Herald, miscarriage, MM Parrish Realtors, mutagenic, napthalene, neurological disorders, Oak View, occupy gainesville, PAH, palm beach post, pentachlorophenol, poisoned places, politics, raw deal, real estate, redevelopment, relocation, remax, remediation, renal failure, Ronald Wolfe & Associates, Sacrifice Zones, Salina Klinghammer, sarcoma, settlement, Sevenson, SFNA Inc, soil pollution, soil replacement, Stephen Foster Community, Stephen Foster Neighborhood Association, Stephen Foster Neighborhood Protection Group, student housing, superfund communities, Tallahassee Democrat, tampa tribune, The Independent, Times Beach, toxic legacy, transgenerational, tumors, wallstreet journal, water pollution, watson realty, weight gain, Wells Fargo, wikileaks, world health organization
Environmental Injustice: The Unfolding Tale of Two Florida Superfund Sites
Tags: 6th Street, agent orange, air pollution, Alachua County, Alachua County Health Department, arsenic, associated press, asthma, Beazer East, benzene, biomass, birth defects, bosshardt, brain, Cabot Koppers Superfund Site, Cancer, cancer cluster, carcinogenic, Carol Estates, catastrophic illnesses, center for public integrity, chemical contamination, children, chromated copper arsenate, City of Gainesville, COCEJ, colbert report, college results online, collusion, community, consent decree, creosote, creosote lagoons, danger, daycare, Debra Heights, diabetes, diluted soil samples, dioxins, Dioxinville, drinking water, Duck Pond, dust, emergency, environmental justice, ep, epa, epa corruption, es, escambia superfund site, evacuation, falsified test results, families, Family, FL DOH, Florida, Florida friendly landscaping, Florida Gators, for rent, foreclosures, Freddie Mac, Gainesville, Gainesville High School, gainesville realtors association, Gainesville Regional Airport, gainesville regional utilities, gainesville sun, Gators, Genesis Preparatory School, GREC, greed, Green Peace, GRU, harassment, health warning, heart disease, hexavalent chromium, homeless, Homes, hoodwinked, houses gainesville, immune system disorders, indoor dust, investors daily, keller williams, killing fields, Koppers, koppers class action, koppers gainesville, Koppers Victims, long-term toxic exposure, Main Street, miscarriage, missing limbs, Mitchell Brourman, mossville louisiana, ms, mutagenic, napthalene, NE 23rd Ave, neurological disorders, nondisclosure, nosebleeds, Oak View, PAH, PAHs, pancreas, PCPs, pentachlorophenol, prejudice, rash, real estate, relocation, remax, renal failure, Sacrifice Zones, schoolguides, Scott Miller, SFNA, SFNA Inc, skin lesions, slurry walls, soil, soil replacement, step, stephen colbert, Stephen Foster, Stephen Foster Neighborhood Association, Stephen Foster Neighborhood Protection Group, suicide, superfund, superfund communities, threat, thyroid, Times Beach, tittabawassee river, toxic city, toxic Gainesville, toxic legacy, toxic timebomb, toxic trespass, Treece, UF, veterans, Wards, water, watson, watson realty, Wells Fargo, whistleblowers, wildlaw, zucchini
Categories Beazer East, Death, EPA Corruption, Florida, Gainesville, Gainesville redevelopment, Koppers, Uncategorized
Koppers Update: Stephen Foster Neighborhood
Koppers Health Warnings
In August 2009, ATSDR and the Florida Department of Health began issuing an ongoing series of health warnings to residents of Stephen Foster Neighborhood including:
*Residents should wash hands after contact with soil and water.
*Parents should keep children from playing in contaminated soils.
*Residents should mow lawns only when it is not dry and dusty, and should avoid exposure to dust from mowing.
*Residents should keep chickens used for homegrown eggs in elevated coops because dioxin contamination was found in eggs from neighborhood free-range chickens.
*Eating homegrown vegetables such as zucchini could cause thyroid changes and fertility problems, and increase cancer risk. There are many unknowns in assessing the real health risk.
"In a million years, I wouldn't live there with my kids." –City Commissioner Todd Chase on Koppers contamination in Stephen Foster Neighborhood
Koppers Disclosure Required by Law
Florida Statutes require the presence of Koppers and its contamination to be fully disclosed to homebuyers and renters in our neighborhood.
Recent homebuyers and renters are reporting that they received no disclosure of Koppers Superfund and its contamination. Some report receiving incomplete or misleading information about the Site and its health hazards.
Non-disclosed or improperly disclosed homeowners and renters have three years from the date they first learn of the contamination to take legal action, and some recent homebuyers are currently filing non-disclosure lawsuits. Renters who went before the City Commission about their non-disclosure have been let out of their leases by their landlords.
Homes More Contaminated Inside than Out
Over 100 local homes were independently tested for Dioxin, Arsenic and PAH's. The results are alarming: the inside of tested Stephen Foster Neighborhood homes average 400 to over 1,100 times more contamination than the toxic soil that EPA/Beazer East is removing from yards.
"We have a very serious problem here that one foot of soil is not going to cure" -timber industry and remediation expert Bob Burton
No Guarantee that Soil Replacement will Work- and No Second Chance
Residents refusing EPA/Beazer East's one foot soil replacement are doing so because soil replacement did not work here in the past: two to sixty feet of toxic soil were removed and replaced with new soil. When the new soil was tested three years later, it had become just as contaminated as the original soil.
EPA/Beazer East will not guarantee that the soil replacement will work- and they have stated that they will not test the new soil later. If the new soil becomes contaminated -as has happened every time in the past -residents who had the soil replacement will be left with toxic soil and toxic homes with no entity legally bound to help them out.
However, Beazer East's Mitchell Brourman stated at the soil remediation meeting in May that residents can back out of the soil replacement contract anytime before soil removal is performed on their property.
"We're not coming back." -Mitchell Brourman to City Commission: Beazer East is done in Stephen Foster Neighborhood after twelve inch soil removal- even if it fails.
Residents' Relocation Efforts Unaffected by Koppers Consent Decree
There are many precedents for relocation in Superfund Communities like Stephen Foster Neighborhood. Beazer East can choose to be a good neighbor in reality and introduce an option to help families move out of Koppers contaminated homes.
Superfund Communities who have achieved relocation for their families advise Stephen Foster Neighborhood residents that their relocations were achieved after federal consent decrees were signed. They stress the importance of continuing to demand relocation out of Dioxin-Arsenic-PAH contaminated homes.
Gainesville City Commissioner Hinson-Rawls wants residents made whole and told Beazer East to "Just purchase the homes"
Update provided by
Stephen Foster Neighborhood Association, Inc.
Stephen Foster Neighborhood Protection Group
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Categories Beazer East, Death, EPA Corruption, Florida, Gainesville, Koppers, Uncategorized
National Institute of Health (NIH): Dioxin exposure causes transgenerational health effects
In a WSU press release, Skinner said of his latest findings, "It is not just the individuals exposed, but potentially the great-grandchildren that may experience increased adult-onset disease susceptibility."
By Brant Hamel
A new study, funded in part by NIEHS, found that dioxin affects not only the health of an exposed rat, but also unexposed descendants through a mechanism of epigenetic transgenerational inheritance.
The study was conducted in the laboratory of Michael Skinner, Ph.D., a professor in the Center for Reproductive Biology in the Department of Biological Sciences at Washington State University (WSU) who designed the study. Co-authors included assistant research professor Mohan Manikkam, Ph.D., research technician Rebecca Tracey, and postdoctoral researcher Carlos Guerrero-Bosagna, Ph.D.
"Although not designed for risk assessment, these results have implications for the human populations that are exposed to dioxin and are experiencing declines in fertility and increases in adult onset disease, with a potential to transmit them to later generations," the authors concluded.
Dangers of dioxin last for decades after initial exposure
Dioxin, 2,3,7,8-tetrachlorodibenzo[p]dioxin (TCDD), is a chemical compound that constitutes part of the Agent Orange herbicide used as a defoliant in the Vietnam War. According to research cited in the study, exposure is estimated to have caused 400,000 deaths and 500,000 birth defects. Dioxin has also been released from industrial accidents, leading to human exposures. Due to its extremely long half-life of up to 10 years in humans, dioxin may still affect pregnancies occurring even 20 years after exposure.
In the Skinner group's experiments, exposure to dioxin caused changes in the DNA methylation patterns of sperm that were transmitted across generations, in an imprinted-like manner, to affect the health of multiple generations of descendents. The grandchildren of exposed rats showed dioxin-induced effects ranging from polycystic ovarian disease to kidney disease. The work raises the serious concern that even if toxic chemicals, such as dioxin, were completely removed from the environment, they could continue to cause disease for multiple generations.
Health effects of dioxin include early onset of puberty in females
Skinner's group used low in vivo doses of dioxin, so that toxic effects were not expected. Female rats were exposed while pregnant, and both their direct progeny and descendants two generations removed were examined.
Although the most prominent phenotypes were kidney disease in males and polycystic ovarian disease in females, a number of other effects including abscesses, colon impaction, lung abnormalities, and missing testes were also observed in animals from the dioxin-treated lineage. Additionally, females from the dioxin-exposed lineage experienced the early onset of puberty. Conversely, males showed delayed puberty, suggesting sex-specific effects of exposure. Early puberty in humans has increased over recent decades and is believed to have an environmental link.
Dioxin alters methylation patterns in germ line DNA across generations
The researchers were able to identify 50 specific regions of DNA that were differentially methylated in the dioxin-treated animals. These regions were permanently reprogrammed and protected from DNA methylation, in a manner that allowed them to be passed down across generations. In the future, these regions may serve as biomarkers that would allow early detection of exposure and risk for disease.
Other chemical compounds, including bisphenol A, phthalates, the insecticide DEET, and the jet fuel JP8 have all been shown to promote disease across generations, through a similar mechanism of epigenetic transgenerational inheritance (see story). This pathway of disease propagation exists not only in rats, but also in humans, mice, worms, flies, and even plants. Thus, future research will be needed to see if other environmental compounds may also lead to health effects across generations.
In addition to NIEHS, NIH and the U.S. Department of Defense provided support for the study.
Citation: Manikkam M, Tracey R, Guerrero-Bosagna C, Skinner MK. 2012. Dioxin (TCDD) induces epigenetic transgenerational inheritance of adult onset disease and sperm epimutations. PLoS One 7(9):e46249.
(Brant Hamel, Ph.D., is an Intramural Research Training Award fellow in the NIEHS Laboratory of Signal Transduction.)
http://www.niehs.nih.gov/news/newsletter/2012/11/science-dioxin/
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Koppers Consent Decree is Irrelevant to Relocation of Residents
Superfund Communities across the US who achieved relocation for their families continue to advise Gainesville Koppers Victims and Refugees that relocation was achieved well after consent decrees were signed. They further stress that this is the time to begin really advocating loudly for our families' relocation out of dioxin-arsenic-pah deathtrap contaminated homes.
Beazer East is certainly not a good neighbor- in fact, there are numerous instances where infamous Dow Chemical is a far better neighbor and citizen than Beazer East.
In July 2012, DOW Chemical offered to purchase 50 dioxin contaminated homes in Midland, Michigan to enable families near the Tittabawassee River Superfund Site to move out of harm's way. Residents and government agencies did not initiate these offers- Dow undertook this humanitarian action on its own.
Contrast this with Beazer East's cold-blooded treatment of residents in Gainesville's Superfund Community: not only has Beazer East failed to reach out to families who need to evacuate their dangerously contaminated homes- residents, many with catastrophic illnesses known to result from chemical exposure, who contact Beazer East with buyout negotiation requests have been uniformly turned down by Beazer East representatives.
Dow Chemical also bought out homes on contaminated land near their Morrisonville, Louisiana plant in order to create a safety zone. Louisiana environmental officials noted that industrial facilities and residences do not mix. Likewise, superfund sites and residences do not mix. Dow executives said buyouts were a sensible approach to moving people out of harm's way, and good citizenship.
Just this summer, chemical corporation Sasol North America announced plans to introduce a Voluntary Property Purchase Program in Mossville, Louisiana. Mossville residents have been fighting for relocation since at least the 1990's, so this is huge news for this community whose health and property values have suffered for decades and yet was denied Superfund designation by EPA 2011.
There are many more precedents for relocation buyouts in contaminated communities, including Superfund Communities. Beazer East can choose to be a good neighbor in reality and introduce a buyout option so help their victims get their families out of toxic homes instead of perpetuating the collusion and coverup that will keep harming Gainesville families. In the meantime, Koppers Victims and Refugees will advocate ever more loudly for relocation out of dioxin-arsenic-pah contaminated deathtrap homes…
Sandra Watts Kennedy
President, Stephen Foster Neighborhood Association, Inc.
09/05/13 remarks to Gainesville City Commission
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text:
Home»Odd News»Clay Travis slams Fetterman's refusal to face conservative media, says he should bow out
Clay Travis slams Fetterman's refusal to face conservative media, says he should bow out
By Steinar October 13, 2022 No Comments4 Mins Read
Outkick founder Clay Travis echoed calls from Fox News' Sean Hannity for Pennsylvania Democratic Lt. Gov. John Fetterman to take the conservative host up on his offer to appear on up to three hours of radio and an hour of television.
"On what you offered to John Fetterman, I would extend the offer the same way," Travis said, referring to the nationally syndicated "Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show" of which he co-hosts.
"Maybe he won't be able to claim that I've been as vociferous of a critic of his, although I'd like to think that I have, because he is the worst candidate that either party has nominated for a statewide elective office in all of 2022."
Travis said his classification of Fetterman to that effect is irrespective of his current medical issues or any nonpolitical considerations.
GOP, DEMS PROPOSE RETAIL CRIME TASK FORCE, SLAM SPIKE IN SMASH-AND-GRAB LOOTING
John Fetterman, lieutenant governor of Pennsylvania and Democratic senate candidate, speaks during a campaign rally in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, US, on Saturday, Oct. 1, 2022
(Nate Smallwood/Bloomberg via Getty Images )
Citing his current recovery from a Spring stroke, Travis criticized Fetterman's ability to answer MSNBC reporter Dasha Burns' questions even with the help of a desktop computer screen and captioning apparatus.
During a forum with the editorial board of PennLive, the online publication of the Harrisburg Patriot-News in the state's capital, Fetterman confirmed he will not consider joining Hannity anytime soon.
Board member Jeffrey Lord, a Cumberland County-based writer and longtime contributor to the American Spectator, had challenged Fetterman's stance, citing his own former work for the late Sen. John Heinz III's, R-Pa., campaigns.
GIANNO CALDWELL CONFRONTS BOTH REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATIC LAWMAKERS FOR ANSWERS ON CRIME – AND IS DISAPPOINTED
Clay Travis and Buck Sexton
(Fox/Composite)
Heinz, scion of the namesake Pittsburgh ketchup company, died in a plane crash near Philadelphia in 1991 and his widow is currently married to Biden climate czar John Kerry.
Lord pointed out Fetterman would have easy access to WHP radio in Harrisburg, where Hannity's radio show is locally syndicated.
"You have to do this 'debating the opposition' thing all the time," Lord said, citing his time working for Heinz, and how the late Republican held multiple debates per cycle and spoke to a wide range of press.
"It's actually a fact that Fox News, [which] Sean Hannity is a part of, has spent the last five or six weeks unloading on us and saying outrageous things," Fetterman responded.
BIDEN'S HOMETOWN MAYOR SPLITS WITH DEMOCRATIC PARTY'S 'WRONGHEADED' DEFUND-POLICE MANTRA
Former Pennsylvania Republican Senator H. John Heinz III appears in Pittsburgh.
(Bettmann/Getty)
"This is not surely a fair and serious venue and I just would not take that – it's an unserious invitation because [Hannity] is all-in for Dr. Oz," the Democrat claimed.
On "Hannity," Travis added that Fetterman "needs to be gone" in addition because he "quite simply cannot do the job."
"If he had any sense of decency he would step down and allow someone else to run, because he doesn't have the health ability to do this."
In further response, former California gubernatorial candidate Larry Elder dismissed Fetterman's claim, saying that as a Republican Angeleno running for office – he didn't have the option of much of any proverbial friendly media as Fetterman does.
CLICK TO GET THE FOX NEWS APP
"He says he won't come on your program because you're, quote, all in for Dr. Oz," Elder said.
"For crying out loud. I ran for governor, as you know, out here in California. The newspapers were all in on my opponent, Gavin Newsom, The Sacramento Bee, L.A. Times. I still did interviews," said Elder, currently a conservative radio host.
"If we Republicans don't do interviews because the media is all in on the other side, we wouldn't do any interviews."
Charles Creitz is a reporter for Fox News Digital.
He joined Fox News in 2013 as a writer and production assistant.
Charles covers media, politics and breaking news, and has covered the annual CPAC conference for Fox News Digital.
Charles is a Pennsylvania native and graduated from Temple University with a B.A. in Broadcast Journalism. Story tips can be sent to charles.creitz@fox.com.
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Rogue Heroes arrives in China, Middle East
Banijay Rights, the global distribution arm of Banijay, has announced further sales of Rogue Heroes from Peaky Blinders creator Steven Knight following the World War Two drama's renewal by the BBC.
Produced by Banijay UK company Kudos and Nebulastar for the BBC – and entitled SAS Rogue Heroes in the UK market – the series is a dramatised account of how Special Forces unit the SAS, was formed under extraordinary circumstances in the darkest days of World War Two.
Based on Ben Macintyre's best-selling book, Rogue Heroes centres on David Stirling, an eccentric young officer, who is hospitalised after a training exercise gone wrong. Convinced that traditional commando units don't work, Stirling creates a radical plan that flies in the face of all accepted rules of modern warfare. He fights for permission to recruit the toughest, boldest, and brightest soldiers for a small undercover unit that will create mayhem behind enemy lines. More rebels than soldiers, Stirling's team is every bit as complicated, flawed, and reckless as it is brave and heroic.
In deals negotiated across the Banijay Rights global sales team, the first season of Rogue Heroes has been picked up by Wing Sight Culture & Media Co for streaming in China and Starzplay in the Middle East. TVNZ in New Zealand, Paramount+ in Germany and Directv in Latin America have all acquired the series. These new agreements follow previous sales of the drama to premium network EPIX (soon to be known as MGM+) for the US, HBO Maxi n Europe, Prime Video in Canada, SBS in Australia and Canal+ in France.
"These latest global deals cap off an exceptional couple of months for Rogue Heroes, with a recent BBC renewal a fantastic way to end the year," commented Banijay Rights CEO Cathy Payne. "We're excited to extend the reach of Steven Knight's and Kudos' epic drama to several new territories, including China and the Middle East for the very first time."
Martin Haines, Joint MD, Kudos, added: "The series has been a huge global hit, with audiences captivated by the incredible world that Steven Knight has brought to life for our Rogue Heroes. We're thrilled that even more people will now get the chance to watch."
Knight also executive produces the series alongside Karen Wilson, Martin Haines and Emma Kingsman-Lloyd for Kudos, and Tommy Bulfin for the BBC.
Rogue Heroes premiered on BBC One and BBC iPlayer in the UK in October 2022. Filming on season two will take place in 2023. Banijay Rights is also global distributor for This Town.
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"I wouldn't do that," Marla protested, in the face of everyone else's smiles. After a moment, she smiled as well. "All right, but I need more coffee first." She leaned forward and held her cup out for Mary to refill.
"What do you mean?" Heinrich spoke up, gaze intent on Marla.
Amber flashed a smile at Marla, and she relaxed a bit.
From there they descended into a detailed discussion of costume designs, proposed staging, etc. It was nearly an hour later that Mary finally brought the conversation to a close.
There was a general bustle as the others stood and took their leave. Marla remained seated, staring at the coffee table where the manuscript had been, tired and numb.
There came a touch on her shoulder. She looked up to see Mary there, looking down at her. No words were spoken, but she could see the expression of sympathy on the other woman's face, and the tears began welling up in her eyes to match the sudden surge of grief from the void under her heart.
Mary took a white linen handkerchief from a pocket and handed it to Marla, then sat down in the chair next to hers and wrapped an arm around her shoulder.
Marla wept. She bit down on the handkerchief, but still small moans of grief escaped her. The tears coursed down her cheeks, and she trembled as if she were badly chilled. The thought touched the edge of her mind that she was chilled; not to the bone, but in the soul.
She had no idea how long she mourned within the curve of Mary's arm. It felt like hours, but doubtless was not more than a few minutes. The tears slowed; her ragged breathing calmed.
Taking the handkerchief from between her teeth, Marla unfolded it and wiped the moisture from her face, rubbing fiercely to remove the feeling of the drying tracks of the tears. Then she clasped it between her hands in her lap.
Mary took her arm from Marla's shoulder.
Mary's voice was quiet. There was no sense of claiming some identity in a sisterhood of suffering; no sense of one-upmanship in her words. Just a simple statement of fact. But it was enough that Marla released her clasp and reached a hand out to Mary, who grasped it tightly.
Marla looked at the older woman, saw the strength in her, and drew on that strength to stiffen her own resolve. She was going to make it through this torrent, some way, somehow.
Actually, the way that downtime women bear all those deaths of children (about 50% by age two or three) involves emotional detachment. They have not been brainwashed by idiot pro-lifers to assume that every pregnancy will result in live birth, and that therefore even the unborn should be called "children", when it is perfectly obvious that they aren't.
Actual children do not go around with umbilical cords attached to them; inside the womb each human organism consists of TWO major parts: the main growing body and the placenta, and neither can survive without the other. Well, since each whole unborn human organism includes the placenta as part of its existence, while a normal/alive born human does not include the placenta as part of its existence, that is why the unborn do not qualify as "children" –the unborn are truly biologically different from the born.
But I've digressed from the original thing. Because downtime women KNOW that many of their youngsters will die with a couple years after birth, they simply refuse to become emotionally attached to those children, until they have proved able to survive.
That fact is worth remembering; should our advanced civilization collapse some day, you can be sure that modern medicine will no longer be around to prevent so many children from dying in their first years. And once again parents, for their own psychological health, will have to refrain from becoming emotionally attached until after those kids have proved able to survive.
P.S. That death rate appears to apply to youngsters regardless of species. I once worked on a Christmas tree farm, and every year fresh seedlings needed to be planted –and about half of them failed to survive the long term. Getting all emotionally upset about Actual Facts is just plain stupid. And the downtimers, as has been pointed out many times, are not stupid.
IMO Eric Flint would prefer that discussions of modern politics not get started here. Vernon, I'm not really objecting to what you said. I'm just trying to "head off" any discussion of the abortion issue here.
You could have said what you had to say without the derogatory remarks about Pro-Lifers.
I agree William *but* I don't want the Abortion battle to start here and I'm sure Eric Flint would agree with that.
I agree. This is a place to escape from real life.
And I'm enjoying myself so far.
I still feel that there will generally be a difference between an early miscarrage, a late miscarrage, and a stiillbirth.
And will note that the 2013 survival rate of early arrivals of acertain duration is much high that it was in 1962 when The child expected by John F. and Jaquline Kennedy cmae early _and did not survive_ !
Perhaps, because that ability generally occurs earlier now, people today become emotionally attached to those children much earlier.
I know that I did not expect the miscarriage we suffered in 2000 because of today's medical technology, and probably mourned more deeply than my great grandparents did for their stillborn children born in the Oklahoma Territory who would have been my great uncles.
Some might call that progress.
As to the plot and the story – it is amazing how much influence Mary Simpson is having not only on culture, but on society. For a fairly minor character in the first book or two, she is becoming a very important player.
A bit off-topic, Drak, but any idea when Eric will be updating the "Fortcoming" section as it has been over a year since it was last updated.
I'm sure there must be, somewhere, a pro-lifer or three who does not exhibit idiocy. Most of them, however, simply spout the same worthless nonsense over and over again, without thinking through the stuff they are talking about. One example was presented in my previous post here/above; they deny the fact that born human children are biologically different from unborn human organisms.
But other examples are just as easy to point out: They ignore the fact that human reproduction is a very complex process, and Murphy's Law is always a factor in very complex processes –and so about 1/6 of confirmed pregnancies miscarry (and if you start with conceptions, half or more fail to result in live birth –most of that half fail to result in a confirmed pregnancy). Many human organisms are fatally genetically defective from the moment of conception, yet pro-lifers idiotically want to equate them with "persons", despite what that would mean in terms of Laws Enabling the Handicapped.
They exhibit Prejudice about "human life", ignoring the fact that humans require the Global Ecology in order to survive –but most of those idiotic pro-lifers don't seem to mind one bit our overpopulation-caused-and-Exponentially-Increasing destruction of the finite Global Ecology, and the logical inevitable horrible-to-humanity consequences, all due to the prejudice of not granting other life equal value to humanity.
In the USA, they don't seem to know that the Constitution specifies "person" throughout, and doesn't use the word "human" even once –amazingly, the US Constitution is ready in case any nonhuman alien intelligences from the stars want to immigrate (remember movie and TV show "Alien Nation"?), and prove that the over-use of the phrase "human rights" is indeed prejudicially idiotic.
For more information along the "grow to become a person" topic, consider the rare documented cases of "feral children" who were raised in the wild by animals, and how you might test such a child to determine whether or not it qualifies as an "intelligent being" (generic "person"), instead of qualifying as just a clever animal. Humans have existed in "anatomically modern form" for nearly 200,000 years, but only in the last 50-70 thousand years have humans become more than "feral but clever animals". It took that long for humanity's gradual accumulation of inventions and words and mental stimuli to reach a kind of "critical mass" that affected very young human minds such that they became mental powerhouses of creativity (especially artistic creativity, as evidenced by the paleontological record), leaving "feral-ness" far behind.
Do note, though, that the potential for that mental breakthrough has existed even longer than the species homo sapiens; study up on Koko the Gorilla, and how she was raised. She has the brainpower of a human toddler –and also the non-feral-ness of a human toddler, and qualifies as a person just as much as does a human toddler.
Meanwhile, most other gorillas are simply feral-but-clever animals, not intelligent-beings/persons –so, if you ignore prejudice about "human", can Truly Feral Children qualify, per All Relevant Scientific Facts, as intelligent-beings/persons, instead of clever animals? And what does All That Data imply about unborn humans? It is no coincidence</b that downtimers all through History tend to start thinking of their children as being people worthy of emotional attachment after those children have survived and grown and developed mentally for a couple of years, becoming "non-feral".
It might be interesting to figure out how many chunks of "raw" information (or equivalent), mentioned here and elsewhere, is available in encyclopedias and other reference works that came through the Ring of Fire…. Eventually, someone in the 1632-verse might put some of those chunks together, and maybe prevent the abortion controversy from taking root there. What fun!
You know your reply is really off topic and not really relevant to this snippet not to mention the fact it could start a flame-war.
Vernon Nemitz, the next post you make on Abortion politics *will* be deleted. I can do and I will do it.
Ignoring all the irrelevant diatribe, Vern made the observation that down-time women dealt with the heartache of children's deaths by not emotionally bonding with them until they reach an age where they are likely to survive.
I'm sure there were some women who dealt with it that way, just as there are women today who don't bond with infants until they are close to walking age and become more like little people.
Was it the universal coping method? I strongly doubt it.
And a side observation: when I wrote the first draft of the story where the event of Marla's baby being stillborn actually occurs, and posted it on Baen's Bar for comments, one of the women readers told us that the most recent statistics (2007, if I remember correctly) indicated that between miscarriages, stillbirths, SID, childhood diseases, and accidents, 20% of American pregnancies don't survive to age 18. That was a surprising number to me.
It would be interesting to see a breakdown. I didn't learn this until much later but Mom had a miscarriage after I was born (1954) and before my sister (1956) was born. Also, when I was in college, Mom had another miscarriage.
Me too. I was very surprised to find out as an adult that my mother had a miscarriage when I was about 4 or 5. Kind of like finding out at the age of 35 that my mother had been dealing with MS since I was 12.
No stat breakdown that I recall. I think she gave a link to CDC or something like that, but I didn't keep it, and it would be hard to run it down again.
Found the link. This was back in 2005 (not 2007), so my memory wasn't as accurate in the details as I thought it was. The actual numbers in toto look worse than I said.
Those are some interesting but disturbing statistics, David, anyway on an unrelated note when will Eric Flint be updating his forthcoming page because its last update was over a year ago.
Eric leaves the updating up to his minions. I'll see if I can jog an elbow.
Of the existing forthcoming list, the scheduled for publication books have all been published. The first two of the Works In Progress list have either been published or will be within three weeks. The next item up for publication is Cauldron of Ghosts, which last I heard, Eric was still working on. It is scheduled for April 2014, I believe. Nothing else is ready for publication at this time.
I also had a younger brother who die of meningitis before his 2nd birthday. I got a bad case of German Measles just months after my brother passed. I wonder what my parents were fearing when I was taken to the hospital that day.
I agree with Vern on his take of the emotional viewpoint of the Pre-WWI. Europeans, my grandmother was one of 20+ births in her farming family in Norway.
Sorry to hear about brother anyway your Grandmother was one of over 20 births (Eek)! I shudder to think what her mother (Poor woman) went through ending up as basically a baby-factory.
I didn't read the first draft but I have to say (I'm a man too) that the men's response was face-palmingly stupid as Marla was getting good medical help for the time but they seemed to forget that this is the early 17th century and the best available medical help is nothing like what's available in the early 21st century.
A conservative estimate by gynecologists and reproductive scientists is that fully 40% of fertilized eggs either fail to implant in the uterine wall or miscarry before full term. Most of those are implantation failures.
An acquaintance of mine had a full-term placental separation about a week before she was due. She had the heartbreak of having her obstetrician tell her the fetus had died, and then still had to go through an induced delivery to expel the remains. That was her first pregnancy–she had three other miscarriages before she finally managed to carry a child to term this summer.
I've used the phrase "confirmed pregnancies" as my starting point, different from "conceptions", because of another statistic I encountered, that perhaps 50% of conceptions don't result in confirmed pregnancies.