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Beyoncé: Yoncé
Sun Jan 19th 2014 by abagond
This song is from Beyoncé's new album that came out last month (December 2013). It has not charted yet as far as I know. The video above is not hers, the one with the fashion models walking down the street. It is way better than that: it is choreographed by Jose Hollywood's and features 12-year-old Charlize Glass.
See me up in the club with 50 them girls
Posted in the back diamond fangs in my grill
Brooklyn brim with my eyes sittin' low
Every boy in here with me got that smoke
And every girl in here gotta look me up and down
All on Instagram, cake by the pound
Circulate the image every time I come around
G's up, tell me how I'm looking babe
[Breakdown:]
Boy, this all for you just walk my way
Just tell me how it's looking babe [x2]
I do this all for you, baby, just take aim
And tell me how it's looking, babe (how it's looking)
And tell me how I'm looking, babe (looking, babe)
Drop the bass, mind the bass, get lower
Radio say, "Speed it up," I just go slower
High like treble, pumping on them mids
The man ain't ever seen a booty like this
And why you think you keep my name rolling off the tongue
Cause when you wanna smash, I just write another one
I sneezed on the beat and the beat got sicker
Yoncé all on his mouth like liquor [x8]
[Beat switch]
Driver roll up the partition please
I don't need you seeing yoncé on her knees
Took 45 minutes to get all dressed up
We ain't even gonna make it to this club
Now my mascara runnin', red lipstick smudged
Oh he so horny, yeah he want to fuck
He popped all my buttons and he ripped my blouse
He Monica Lewinski'd all on my gown
Oh, there daddy, daddy didn't bring the towel
Oh, baby, baby be better slow it down
And we ain't even gonna make it to this club
Take all of me
I just wanna be the girl you like, girl you like
The kinda girl you like, girl you like
The kinda girl you like
Is right here with me
Right here with me
Driver roll up the partition fast
Over there I swear I saw them cameras flash
Hand prints and footprints on my glass
Hand prints and good grips all on my ass
Private show with the music blastin'
He like to call me Peaches when we get this nasty
Red wine drip filth talk that trash
Chauffeur eavesdropping trying not to crash
Oh, there daddy, daddy now you ripped my fur
Oh, baby, baby be sweatin' on my hair
Est-ce que tu aimes le sexe?
Le sexe. Je veux dire, l'activité physique.
Le coït. Tu aimes ça?
Tu ne t'intéresses pas au sexe?
Les hommes pensent que les féministes détestent le sexe,
Mais c'est une activité très stimulante et naturelle que les femmes adorent.
[English translation:
Do you like sex?
Sex. I mean, the physical activity.
Coitus. Do you like it?
You're not interested in sex?
Men think that feminists hate sex,
But it's a very stimulating and natural activity that women love.]
on Mon Jan 20th 2014 at 00:43:29 Sharina
Sorry but this song is not one for kids to listen to let alone dance. I liked it, but most of her songs just come off as if she is full of herself.
on Mon Jan 20th 2014 at 00:45:30 mary burrell
The youngster's are awesome dancers. I like this better than the original Beyoncé video, these young girls are killing it.
Ok have to admit choreography was hot.
@Sharina: You said what I was thinking, the song is not for young children. But the young lady is a talented dancer.
Have not seen the original video. Did not know it was out.
on Mon Jan 20th 2014 at 00:47:02 abagond
@ Sharina
LOL. This is certainly one of those songs where she is full of herself!
Saw it on youtube, I think men will appreciate the video. I am not a prude, but Beyonce' is as you say full of herself. It's kind of soft porn.
LOL. Yes and on a whole new level of it too.
on Mon Jan 20th 2014 at 00:49:53 Bulanik
Great, great dancing.
I didn't listen to the words, doh!
on Mon Jan 20th 2014 at 00:50:52 mstoogood4yall
that girl can dance. if yall think beyonce is full of herself on this song then you'd really think that if u listen to her song bow down B@#$ at ur own risk. lol
I have not watched the original, but I do like most of the dancing in her vids, but if it is some nastiness I won't watch.
@mstoogood4yall: Yeah, I heard that Bow Down. I thought she is just gone over the top.
She is pushing the envelope for sure.
@mstoogood4yall
I had to take a sneak peak at the video. It was like watching a bit of soft core porn
ok yes this video is way better than the other one, idk what the heck the other vid was about all I saw was women strutting around and lip synching her song naw I like music vids with dancing better. I like Ciara and Janelle monaes vids
omg I just realized she is from eight flavaz I knew I recognized that fro from somewhere lol. they were in ciaras vid u got me good, she was my favorite one. they were on Americas best dance crew a couple years ago they did well.
on Mon Jan 20th 2014 at 16:56:13 The Pragmatist
Uhh… Whoa. I did not notice how graphic these lyrics are. Disturbed someone thought it was ok for kids to dance to this.
The first half of the song is Yonce, but that second half is called partition. Check out that video and you will see what I really mean by softcore porn or rather pole dancing.
@The Pragmatist
on Mon Jan 20th 2014 at 18:13:02 darqbeauty
Ok, first of all, that child KILLED it! That young lady can DANCE! Dance, I say, DANCE! Second, even at 34, I can still listen to music in my room and pretend I'm in a music video. Don't judge me! Third, this child should NOT be dancing to this grown folks music! Ok, I'm done! 🙂
on Mon Jan 20th 2014 at 19:01:21 Ebonymonroe
She's an extremely talented dancer, but I am confused as to why the parents didn't make her switch this song for another because of the s-xual content. That's a shame.
Side note: I bet we'll be hearing from this little lady in a few years as a world famous choreographer! She's got "it."
@ Darqbeauty
+1 😀
on Mon Jan 20th 2014 at 19:17:15 S.
OMG You posted Charlize Glass! Yay!
Fun fact: Beyonce posted her a video of Charlize doing this choreography on her instagram last week 🙂
And of course, fall out ensued when Charlize received attention but the little White girl who was dancing next to her didn't (nevermind that she was out of the frame for most of the dance due to crafty videography from Charlize's own White mother lol).
Charlize is a professional dancer. She dances to a lot of inappropriate music but she's otherwise such a normal sweet kid. Talented beyond words, you should do more posts like this Abagond highlighting talented Black kids on Youtube like Chloe and Halle!
@Ebonymonroe
I think some people focus more on the beats than the actual lyrics. It could also be a matter of whether or not people have become desensitized to sexual lyrics.
"Don't judge me!"—-LOL
Judge you?! I am just glad I am not the only one.
@constantly
i hear you. The odd thing is that I never thought I would have to sensor my kids music. Good beats and good music that did not throw sex in your face, but how wrong I turned out to be.
wow I just watched her vid and wtf, I don't really like most female artists nowadays they objectifiy themselves and claim it is empowerment. I miss the old Ciara and the old beyonce dancing. All this half naked butt cheeks out mess is not cute to me. maybe its the tom boy in me but I just find women dancing with clothes on and dancing just as amazing if not better than the men in their vid more amazing and empowering than this. I loved Ciara's vid like a boy& promise and I loved tlc, I liked tlc's vid creep it was sexy but they were still covered up and weren't wearing thongs with their arse and breast out.
My favorite female artists never had to take their clothes off to make money their voice was more than enough, it seems the female artists nowadays that are really famous do take their clothes off but have an ok voice.
I miss the women dancing in sweats and killin it.
on Mon Jan 20th 2014 at 22:47:56 SweetLife89
Me too :(. I feel like the difference between sexy and slutty has become lost somehow.
Me three.
Music has greatly deteriorated. I guess when music becomes that bad you have to do something to sell.
on Tue Jan 21st 2014 at 09:48:51 Mz. Nikita
Great points, ladies! I do like to listen to some music that may sometimes be a lil' risqué (but then again, I am an adult)-however, when it comes to children there should be a line drawn somewhere! No, you cannot shield them forever from certain facets of life (for example hearing about a healthy, sexy, love life between a committed couple being one part of it), but while she is free to express herself I do believe that such songs as this one should at least warrant a Warning Label, so adults will at least be given a Choice as to whether or not they want to purchase (and/or play) this type of content in their house.. "Freedom of Speech" is 1 thing, yet whatever happened to "Freedom of Choice"!?
P.S. On a side note, the kids were so cute, and talented to boot! But, that being said I must say (perhaps because I was born in the South) they were great, but I've got folks at an even younger (and older) age down there who can Really rip it uP on the dance floor with no professional training, so maybe I'm just used to seeing choreography that is even more turnt uP-but no shade though, they were adorable!! 😀
on Tue Jan 21st 2014 at 16:32:50 Bulanik
constantly said:
I'm all about the beats but that doesn't mean that I don't hear the lyrics and if people are desensitized by sexual content that is only because it is being played 24/7 everywhere – you can't get away from it…
I think this is why I didn't register the lyrics. Lyrics are always secondary to beat and "sound" in the way I hear songs (non instrumental songs).
These lyrics are definitely "off", now that I've really heard them
I wanted to say that the song reminded, in a way, of Kelis' "Milkshake", but slowed down…
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AwXKJoKJz4)
@ constantly…don't get me wrong, I also think Mrs Carter IS awesome; she is a hardworking and very bright, very gifted person. Yet, I wonder whether she might consider another direction later on when her baby daughter gets older and starts singing some of those lyrics or some such? I remember how "correct" Madonna became when her daughter Lourdes started school.
Perhaps I am being judgmental? over-quick, unfair and harsh? not seeing the bigger context? because Beyonce is a complex woman and artiste and her thought process behind this album-release could be taken out of context and consequently, misunderstood.
Because I haven't heard the music and listened to all the lyrics, like I have and never looked closely at Beyonce's song writing.
I don't want to be dismiss her as something she is not.
What I am aware of though, is that she does sample or repeat the words of the novelist Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, who did a talk on the need for feminism by men AND women. Ms Adichie is something of a goddess in my eyes, so I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't alone in thinking that if Beyonce is sampling her speech, it might not be a totally bad thing.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg3umXU_qWc)
The photos on my gravatars (this is one of 2 Bollywood actor/directors) were chosen by a few nearest and dearests who were flat-out convinced that is what I most look like (rolls eyes). Joking, I mentioned that another commenter (or two) at Abagond's had suggested I get a picture, and lo…this photo was IT, was uploaded, amid gusts of laughter. I took the pics off once or twice, but I'm used to them now…
*dismissive of her as something she is not.
on Tue Jan 21st 2014 at 22:34:14 Sharina
Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie is beautiful. Just listening to her was quite empowering
on Wed Jan 22nd 2014 at 00:56:09 Ebonymonroe
I couldn't agree more. But they can't fool "grown, critical thinking women." You can't pass performing for the male gaze off as female empowerment, women are not stupid, we know when you're performing for men and women, or just women, or just for men. They circulate the same images of "conformity" women have been playing into since the golden age of Hollywood in the 50's. These women promote the degradation of women, not female empowerment.
Side note: I remember when I was little and I sat down at the dinner table singing Az Yet. "Last night I was inside of you."
Let's just say I didn't make it to the next line.
I still can't get over how Beyonce has 9-11 year old little Black (Afro Latina) girls twerking and butt clapping in her "Blu" music video. (A song dedicated to her toddler aged daughter). I haven't purchased her material in recent years because the Pop route she took just isn't my personal thing. But I was always warm towards her because of the quality of the R&B music on Destiny's child's debut, Writing's on the wall, her solo debut, and B day. But I've completely gone off her now. Degrading yourself in a video like "Partition" as an adult woman is one thing, but I cannot stomach someone who promotes the s-xualization of children. Her fashion label already had to pull a campaign a few years back due to complaints because she had little girls in makeup, dresses and high heels, and the public felt she was s-xualizing little girls. But flash forward a few years and now this. I think it's telling how the public were disgusted over 21 year old Miley Cyrus, but when it's little brown girls, the critics labelled it "art." Thank-you Beyonce for all your glorious contributions to Black women and girls with your platform which sends powerful images out all across the world. Why don't you just name your greatest hits "Black Jezebel and the nappy headed sex feenin little Black girls."
*toddler aged daughter.)
on Wed Jan 22nd 2014 at 01:13:21 Sharina
Thank you for putting into words so eloquently my idea of Beyonce. I agree with you in full.
on Wed Jan 22nd 2014 at 02:49:27 Paige
"This song is from Beyoncé new album"
You might just want to make it "Beyoncé's new album."
I like how it changes colors.
on Wed Jan 22nd 2014 at 02:51:59 abagond
@ Paige
on Wed Jan 22nd 2014 at 08:22:13 mstoogood4yall
@ ebonymonroe
Lol az yet last night oh I remember that song. At least most of the songs back then were more covert with what they were saying and as a kid didn't know what they were saying. I remember the song too close by next I didn't know what it was about but now I do same thing with 112 peaches and cream It was more subtle.
on Wed Jan 22nd 2014 at 09:26:46 Kiwi
Ca m'etonne! Je ne savais pas qu'il y avait des hommes qui n'aiment pas le sexe. LOL!
on Wed Jan 22nd 2014 at 09:50:40 Mz. Nikita
..Quite frankly, I have never, ever, ever cared much for Bey to tell yah' the trutH, and Ebony your post was in line with my sentiments about the lyrical content (and its' subsequent effect thereof on children, especially young girls) so I just wanted to send you a High-5 "Internet Style" lol because you understand exactly what the issue and hand is, as well! Too many people are much too quick to turn a blind eye to a lil' cute Black girl dancing to such words (as the ones portrayed in this tune), and be it men and/or women it really disturbs and sickens me to the core here in the ole' U.S.!!
Beyonce and Jay-Z are just about being rich and famous. They do not give a shit about us.
on Wed Jan 22nd 2014 at 12:50:52 B. R.
Since Im really at odds with many trends being put out on this blog lately, why be false now…at least you will know im honest
We are in differant worlds…Im in a differasnt world than you all…and beam me up Scotty this planet suks
Right now, we are in a heat wave and the beach is just rolling big time, and where I live , that means booty booty and more naked booty, booty of all shapes sizes and colors, petit booty , bubble butt booty , happy booty, old booty, young booty…all female booty…steroid booty
and its heaven…its pure heaven…for all of us…men women, children, families, little babies…i get to see incredible booty passing inches from my nose, and its totaly acceptable in this society, not looked down on, and natural…and it promotes incredible well being…i respect so much these women for being free and sensual, and to the country Brazil, for just being advanced in sensuality
and yes, we just got a lead on a passisata, a bare booty samba dancer that we hope to book with us…bare booty hip shaking , hotter than twerking, samba dancer…i cant wait
I have so much respect for afro diasporic culture and the natural sensuality and grace it has incorporated over several thousands of years
I dont have room anymore for uptight political agendas that start railroading sensuality into some false pshycho analysys of what sexual exploitation is or what "sexualising " is, if Brazil is a sexualised country in anybodies eyes, then I am eternaly grateful for living 28 years in a sexualised country
buying into psycho analysys of what is sexual objectifying is just buying into western values…religion has messed us all up beyond repair in the west and middle east…i wont buy into one ounce of it
we are just in differant worlds, and i wouldnt trade my world for this uptight world i see on here, for anything
No disrespect, but it doesn't matter how many Black vag¡nas you've been in, you don't get to have a say in how WE AS BLACK WOMEN feel about our representations, BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT A BLACK WOMAN! You can go on and on about your love affair for "free jungle a55," as a White man . . . Oh, I'm sorry, I mean "African culture," and patronise us by telling us that all our opinions (which we are entitled to as human beings) all come from political agendas, such as Black militant rhetoric, or feminist propaganda, standing in the way of you getting your fill of the Black female body for your enjoyment. But you do not get to do it without us being fully aware of you patronising us. This is why cats are getting annoyed with you. Don't bother to reply because I will be scrolling past your posts in future. I'm fed up of you telling us what we should think and feel as an African people, and as Black women, just because a never ending stream of Black female exploitation, prostition, and the stripping of our bodies serves you as a White man. The world is your Sarah Baartman ha baby?
I don't care how much Black kitty kat or he@d you've gotten, or how long you've lived in Brazil, it doesn't give you the licence to tell us what to think or feel. We're grown women, we know our culture, our opinions come from these two places, and first and foremost, living in a Black female body. Not just dipping into one, or gazing at one like "a thing" to get off on, but actually living in one. So you can stop running around barking at every Black or Asian man or woman on this blog, and patronising us by telling us that all our thoughts haven't arrived from living in our skin, knowing our history, and coming to our own opinions and views about our own communities, but from elaborate political agendas that get in the way of your s-xual pleasure. We know who the hell we are.
No disrespect but you can take your Black booty staring, Black woman exploiting, African diaspora patronising self and step!
And Abagond don't delete my post please, I have a right to speak up after seeing this patronising mess for months. I have a right as a Black woman in my body.
My phat a55 cheeks were not made for your amusement, nor were my milk chocolate drop n!pples. It's MY body, and it's My group of women who are not shown as fully rounded human beings compared to the women of YOUR GROUP BR. And that affects ME: on the street, occupationally, often domestically, politically, and socially. It affects us, not YOU, US!
Excellent comment. Thank you.
Since your not going to read this, maybe it doesnt matter that I write it, no disrepect either, but you sure dont represent black Brazilian women..you cant speak for them, you dont understand their culture..yeah we are going to talk culture…becuase you are ripping it down by stomping on some women or girsl shaking their booties , like its something bad.
Lady, you dont know your culture, you tell me the example of black culture in england is black music was in style…so pop music is your example of black culter? that is as good as you can do? to understand black Afro diasporic culture? that is lame..you are a pop culturist
Quite frankly , I could care less about your a 55's, and the majority of women on the beach are white, not that that makes any differance, if you are uptight you are uptight
Black women exploiting? Prove it…im in the deep struggle to fight for black women and their culture in Brazil..just because you are uptight about naked booty shaking in black culture , gives you no right at all to be the judge and jury of what is valuable in black Brazilian culture , thank god, thank god!!
What arrogance on your part to think you represnet black women and their culture, you represent you, you sure dont speak for black Brazilian women
what in hades name makes you think Im telling you what to think, you can think what ever you want, Im telling you what I think, I could care less what you feel about it.your little uptight speech about your resentment because I have sex with black women , just tells me how low and petty people can get when it comes to a white man having sex with a black woman… just get in line
and your petty judgement will have no affect on whether I will have sex with a black woman in the future , you dont own or speak for black women, you speak for your self..and your body, and i dont want your body
on here cats can get annoyed all they want because a lot of bs is rolling I dont let bs dictate how I should think or feel ..on here does not represent reality or the "black voice" at all…its a bunch of individuals giving their opinions..dont forget it..howmany people post here? this is the definitive black voice? yeah right, dont get full of yourself telling me off, like you are the black voice , you arnt , you are just giving your individual opinion
Isnt it interesting, I write a post , about all the booty rolling around me, and how Im going to be exited hiring a black Brazilian passista who will wear the traditional costume that reveals her booty and there is hip shaking..
neither one at all has anything to do with actualy having sex
and what gets dragged in? My sex life…whether Im having sex with black women…which had nothign to do at all with the post I brought in
but, my sex life with black woman, immedietly gets set up on the chopping block
how weak and lame can you get…the right fear mongers, the left guilt trips and attacks someone's sex life
back off my sex life, its none of your business
yeah, when people hide behind political agendas to start attacking peoples sex lives, that is when you know the political agenda has turned weak
militant feminism also stepped way over the line , and took sensuality right out of womens natural right , they paid a big price for it too
What arrogance on your part to say Black women can't desire more balance in our representations. Who do you think you are? Why can't we ask for more than just the two, 1. the Black mammy and 2. the Black jezebel? You're not a Black woman, so please don't toot your horn on what you do for us. You're like every other White person when it comes to Black culture, you only get excited by the sensational and diregard the soul and humanity of our culture. As far as England we've had a long history of British reggae, Raga, and Lover's rock. We produced acts like Soul to Soul, Omar, Shola Ama, and Sade came out over here. We've also had a long history of Black British Jazz like the music you hear from Jamiroquai, that sound is from the Black British Jazz movement.
I don't know about my culture? NO YOU DIDN'T BECAUSE ALL BLACK CULTURE IS TO YOU IS BOOTY SHAKING! We're a diaspora, and we have had thriving cultures from the Caribbean, to Africa, to North America and South America, since we got here. England was celebrating Blues artists like Howlin Wolf back when North America called it "race music that couldn't be played." Do you know why I know that and you don't? Because I'm a Black woman and my culture extends beyond booty shaking to me.
I'm not a prude, our culture never has been, and Black women have celebrated s-xually expressive entertainers like Janet Jackson, Vanity 6, and TLC, since forever, all acts who had a heavy emphasis on female s-xuality and expression. We just often feel there is a difference between a woman like Janet, who went from discussing . . .
*adulthood, womanhood, self sufficiency, and independence with "Control."
* To the social climate of America and political consciousness and awareness with "Rhythm nation."
*To s-xuality and romance with "Janet."
*To depression and self loathing and making a correlation between that and S&M, using s-xual pleasure and pain as a metaphor for despair with "The velvet rope."
Because she was presented as a full human being: intellectually, spiritually, emotionally, as well as s-xually, we celebrated with her. Because we are Black people who live in our skin, we experience our treatment and the boxes put around us, so we know when a Black artist is conforming to treatment we fight against, just sell records, and not being "empowered" as they claim. And even if that's not the case, we have a right to have different opinions and to express them without some White guy who loves getting off on the Black female body, dictating to us what opinions we are allowed to have.
How dare I take the liberty to express an issue I take with 9-11 year old little Black girls twerking s-xually in hot pants in a music video? BR if you have to ask, you don't deserve an answer.
I don't care about your s-x life. The reason why I brought it up is because you have taken every conversation about Black women's hypers-xual depictions in the media, and conversations about having healthy, thriving relationships between Black people and non Black people in a White supremacist society, and turned it into an attack on your s-x life, and pornogr@phic past time. How ignorant and entitled can you get? Not everything revolves around your d¡ck, not our culture, not our lives, not our opinions. Black liberation, Feminism, oh it's all against you. No our opinions are our opinions, and you don't get to dictate them, or intrude on them by demonizing us as militant rhetoric puppets. You're a White man, you're not Black, you're not a woman, and you're not a Black woman, so take your own advice and butt out of OUR BUSINESS AND WHAT WE (RIGHTFULLY) FEEL, THINK AND SAY ABOUT IT. You can have a different perspective, but be respectful about the difference of opinion from Black women when it comes to our thoughts on things relating to Black women, there's a respectful way to do things. You need to cut out patronising us, and always founded your tales of the worth of things being how much they make you salivate. That is not our worth. That's not our purpose as human beings, born into Black skin, and the female gender. How dare you assume about what I know of my own people. It just gets worse!
Ebonymonroe, how do you feel about nutidy in ballet?
Pretty much everything you stated is pop culturist..cant we take it any deeper?
Black dance is just one Afro diasporic culture Im involved with , and, its one of the most precious…
Its funny, modern ballet can put on dances with nudity, but , if I work with passistas, there is something wrong with my adoration of it..
because they shake their hips and are naked? These dancers want to perform this way, it is their art, their passion, their lives. I go into the hole to bring them in on the stage and they are discriminated against big time trying to get work outside of two weeks of the year in carnival
this is high art…seriously high art..the passista is one of the most exiting forms of dance and highest expressions of Afro diasporic dancing that exists and you write it off as some kind of sexual connotation and that is the only reason im interested in it
this country said its ok for me to be on the beach and look at booty, you dont own their booties…they give me the right, and I respect them so much for that, because, I dont want to touch them, or have sex , or even talk to them or know them, I am just blessed to be in a country that sais it is a public space and its ok for people to be almost naked..and the women like it and want it and the men respect it
You should compare pictures of Josephine Baker , I mean videos on youtube, with some youtubes of passistas…
There are serious and important lincs that can be made through out the Afro diaspora…talk is cheap, words are hollow talking about this…Im immersed in it, it is my profesion…
You either really know it and the value , or you dont and you are just saying words and rhetoric you have read
because what is disturbing is, these militant political agendas, whether feminin, black, white racist kkk, those are militant political agendas also, marxist all of them..
they dont hesitate to destroy culture…
add in uptight about sex based on religious fundamentalism and even the milder versions down into today, and how its amazing that they can hold hands with the militant feminists, add the militant black feminists, the far right, and the marxists also, and how they are united about being uptight about the female booty…and who gets to own it..hey you know, ultimitly I am a big beleiver that each individual woman is the owner of their own booty and they get to say what they want to do with it, and no one else, including other women, get to say anything about it
and Afro diasporic drum dance culture does have a serious deep history , and , serious deep represion , for being too sexual or too this or too that
its amazing to see people doing it on here…they dont see the cycle they are repeating, and use intellectual western pshycho analysis terms to describe how to feel about a culture that doesnt translate into that
did you know you cant write the traditional jazz ride cymbal beat on classical music rhythm notation? they have to write a trick way to play it that doesnt translate into reality
Wow! I didn't know B. R. had jungle fever. But then that's no surprise. Many more white men have yellow fever. It's disgusting how dirty, creepy, and fetishistic white men reduce nonwhite women to sexual objects. Then they have the nerve to call it "respecting our culture". Eew!
That's the thing BR, this has nothing to do with ballet or Brazilian dance, this discussion was about Beyonce's lack of balance in the way she depicts herself, and using children to dance a dance that is about s-xually enticing viewers, which is 100% wrong because children should not be s-xualized.
If you really feel the way you say you do, about walking around half nude being the ultimate example of liberty, I sure do hope you're not hypocritical and are in fact also wearing a thong on the beach.
Bottom line, we are not a monolith, and those different views across our different homes as a diaspora have the right to be expressed, and our fully rounded palate, fully represented, in our depictions in film, music videos, print, and every other forum, just as White women are shown ranging from all their different ways and worth, and not one narrative, unlike Black women who are either "Precious," and "The help," or Halle Berry in "Monster's ball." If that offends you, you're a part of the problem, but whether that's the case is for the birds, but when you begin shooting down our right to speak about it whenever we choose, you become a very obvious part of our oppression, and for your gain, for your entertainment as a man, under the guise of culture preservation, to salivate and exploit and get off on. And that's just the way it is. You will always be White and male, but I will always be Black and female, and right there is where it is a tangible form of social oppression for me, but something of a past time for you. It's something you don't understand and probably never will.
Full stop.
I just caught your second statement, Monroe, no, its not my sex life at all, its all of us who value the freedom to be able to express ourselves how we want
you keep wanting to bring it back to me as the white man, but, there are so many people that arnt white who feel exactly the way I do…
you are rhetoric and no substance…once again, you try to make like im telling you how to think, cut it out..dont play that and then hide behind some black political rhetoric,when you are just ranking on black cultural expresion , and really have no idea what is involved in Brazilian Afro diasporic culture…
you can think anything you want…im telling you how I think, and, I tell you this, go run what you are saying on a bunch of Brazilian passistas…I dont need to say anything
I'm done with this dude. I never got why Black women will not mess with White guys in America before, but now I do, I could never put up with that condescending on my own race.
Baker was made to perform in a banana skirt half naked, while Blacks celebrate her artistic progression, we see the banana skirt and know why White wanted her to perform in it. But as a White man, of course that part goes over your head.
Unbelievable!
oh and here is Kiwi, who understands nothing of the culture im dealing with, absolutly zip
is this one of those cats , Monroe? yeah, very revealing
Kiwi is anti interracial sex and uses his aunts and uncles as his main source of referance…talk about weak…this one those cats, Monroe?
hey you were wrong also , I didnt want to interrupt you, but, the early black feminist movement did speak out about black men with white women, I brought it in in a link…you were wrong about that…the black feminist movement planted some anti interracial sex seeds also that need to be examined into today…
you are all rhetoric and no substance, Monroe
what do you know about black dance? the history of it …about dance?
because you talk like you are an expert on it..
Oh pulease, Black feminism is not a religion with a specific doctrine, there are hundreds (if not more) Black feminist ideologies. You think I as a 23 year old woman am unable to make up my own mind about myself, the world around me and how it relates to me and my community?
You really think nothing of us POC don't you BR. We're stupid people and you've got us all figured out. You can generalise us, psychoanalyse us, tell us about the roots of our thoughts, our lives, you even know more about Black British culture than I do apparently. You show your true colours with every post.
All Kiwi has done is discussed his community and the way in which he often see's Asians with self loathing partner with Whites, as far as I have seen. But of course, what Kiwi thinks and expresses about his own community is . . . is . . . what is it again? Oh yeah, HIS BUSINESS AND HIS RIGHT AS AN ASIAN MAN!
Yes of course a Black woman dancing topless in a banana skirt is rhetoric not fact, and my opinion on it is not my opinion, I'm a stupid little Black puppet who hasn't studied Black music and dance, as a girl who grew up as a vocalist, choreographer and former model from the age of 9, I'm just a stupid little Black girl who knows nothing about herself. Thank-you for putting me in my place mister White man, you have always been so good at that. Thanks again.
Salutes "constantly" and bows out.
Correction. They give enough of a sh*t about us to manipulate us into lining their pockets. Unfortunately for them I won't be one of those fools who will willingly pay for their music.
@constantly and Kiwi
Very well said. Most of her worshipers…coughs…fans don't really know what those words mean or care to know. If Beyonce name is on it then it is gold.
Good, that is why I want to find out why you are uptight about what Beyonce is doing
excuse me, constantly, I actualy like Beyonce, I liked both clips..Im not telling you how to think, but, I really dont agree with these sexualy uptight cultural opinions
You are a dancer, Monroe? Good , then we can just start …if you are so uptight to think this is a white man just trying to tell you what your culture is, you are seriously deluded…go talk to some Brazilian dancers
I worked with Loius Falco on the movie Fame with the dancers on there..in his regular classes, when you entered the whole room, direct on the left is a co ed naked dressing room ..on vision for all to see…many danceres ive worked with , have no hang ups about nudity
dances where women shake their hips , are done en masse here in Brazil, the little girls, and, this really is how its always happened , do these dances too.
The heavy thing about Afro diasporic dances is how it touches all the fulcrums of the body , including pelvic thrusts
where do you start getting off labeling natural dance movements found in various cultures as sexualising ? If you want to believe those things, feel free, I dont care, but, this isnt your world Monroe, thank goddness. Living down here is a counter balance to all the uptight flow of the angst positions of disgruntled sexual frustation…you all dont have the sensuality in your lives and that is exactly why the frustration flows through your diologue..then you hide behind political rhetoric, and, its cowardly of you to bring this down to some black and white issue and who I have sex with…because I like Beyonce…
that is weak
Peaches and cream was my jam. I think Prince was the master of secret meanings in his lyrics. 🙂
children walk around on the beach here with everyone in all ages in bikinis, some near naked…
who is to judge what sexualising is? im deeply questioning that…and dont hide it behind a black political agenda…I never said anything was just because of a black militant agenda, many things were good in black political agendas, ..this is more of an independent psycho analysing what is sexualising…and , I dont trust the judgement going down here…
they think its because Im a white man I cant relate …but, its because I know dances that use nudity and intence pelvic thrusts are from black people , who live it and breath it, it has nothing to do with how I feel, people should just know this exists before they start passing judgement and condemn things as sexualised
i dont trust peoples sexual experiance judgements on here at all..there is a huge amount of naiveness…(not talking about you, Sharina, as a married woman)
@B. R.
Read the lyrics of beyonce's song and tell me how you would see that if you heard a 2yr old or 15 year old singing this. Having a child say thing along the lines of "Oh he so horny, yeah he want to fuck."
I don;t know about anyone else but that is disgusting. Kids should not be highly sexualized. Kids should not be looked at in a desire because of the words they are becoming desensitized to.
NEVER HAD A THING TO DO WITH BRAZIL! Do you not understand? In the music video for "Blu," Beyonce has little girls twerkin; twerkin is a sexual dance in the Western world, it's not a dance for children. Both Black men and women have taken issue with this in the video, though mainstream White America hasn't. But they had a problem with Miley Cyrus even though she's a woman, because she's White, but when it's 9-11 yr old Black girls, they don't care. We do, we have a right to, they're the kids of our race. Beyonce is from North America, she knows exactly how twerkin is defined in Western Black culture, and so she would know it's not right to have little children doing that dance, in our community.
BR, quite frankly, this has nothing to do with you, it's absolutely none of your business, this is the point you're not getting, it's none of your business, you don't have the right. I will not waste another minute defending my right to my desire for balance as a Black woman (who was talking to other Black people), to some random White man who's become waaay too familiar and entitled with our race that he thinks he has a say. I see we have a Tarantino on our hands, how many times can you say the n word in 2 hours BR, do you think you could outdo your brethren Tarantino in Pul fiction and put Spike Lee in his place? Why don't you stick to discussing us and patronising us with your own people like most White people do, instead of patronising us like some Black artistic culture version of Bill O Reily?
It's none of your business what any of us Black men or women feel about our own culture.
END OF!
When you worked on fame you should have worked on them not making the only Black lead an illiterate character with behaviour problems, and the only Black female lead the one who falls prey to a s-xual predator.
Maybe you can also work on understanding the significance of Josephine Baker dancing in a banana skirt before you throw her in as an example of Black s-xual liberty vs racist exploitation next time.
Maybe you can work on Black British Soul R&B Hip hop and Raggae and Afro beat before you (assume and) tell me Black British culture is nothing but Pop.
Maybe you can research how twerkin is defined in the West and why that plays a role in how twerkin can be defined in a video from an artist from the West.
Post after post, you have assumed and made yourself look ignorant, while trying painfully to your knowledge of the culture of a race that isn't your own. Along with this you have made yourself look like the ultimate White man by assuming where all of us as POC grew our points of view from, because we all look alike, sound and think alike.
I used to think you were alright, but I you've really exposed your sense of superiority in many of these posts. I just never dreamed you White people would take it so far as to disrespect, patronise, and be so a entitled even when it comes to our race and culture.
This is another new low!
He says it has nothing to do with s-x and then alludes to there being a need for s-xual experience to understand. No I'm not a virgin BR, even if I was it wouldn't take away from it. I was a psychology student and there has been great evidence on how the over s-xualised images of women lead to young men having difficulty in how they view women. There's also evidence that proves the depictions of African Americans cause people to have negative views towards them. There was a study done that showed Black children end up with the lowest self esteem after watching TV for a prolonged period of time, while White children have elevated self esteem. Why? Because the differences in the balance of their depictions are fully rounded people. So Black women deal with the images of them as Blacks, and the double whammy of being female. You have no understanding of the narrative of Black women that has played out about Black women since the slave trade. You have no understanding of how closely the depictions of Black women still resemble the ideologies of that time, that's why you used Josephine Baker as an example but didn't know the significance of her wearing a banana skirt. You probably also don't know much of her dancing was done in the spirit of making fun of herself for her White audience. That's why she danced with her back hunched, not arched, to look primitive and silly, but she did it to put money on the table. In the middle of her fame, her style and her styled with gel made her a fashion icon, and she became more than just the girl who danced like a monkey. But you wouldn't know the story, the humanity, and the hesitancy she felt behind the scenes, because all you see as a White man is her nude body.
What B. R. is committing is in the same vein as cultural appropriation. It's that phenomenon where a white man like Elvis or Eminem adopts "black culture" and becomes rich and famous off the backs of generations of blacks who actually lived and breathed it as a part of their everyday lives. It's also that phenomenon where a white man like Tom Cruise goes to Asia, kills the men, beds the women, and becomes the expert on "Asian culture" (last samurai).
Yes , Monroe, a person needs sexual experiance, more than your 23 years, before Im going to trust them to define "sexualising". All you are doing is confirming you studied western oriented psychology . Yeah, media is the problem, always dismissing, destroying and burying the essences of black culture.
All your studies fly in the face of everyones life style here in Brazil, yes, Brazil has a lot to do with it, because you are superimposing your limited idea of what "sexualising" is , over a music video with a dance ethic. The fact a country like Brazil exists , shows people can be exposed to huge amounts of sensuality, nudity, dances that have huge amounts of pelvic thrusts and dances with bare booties , that are high art…and people dont get any worse..
Twerking should be brought out in the open and respected as a black American dance , it should be featured on tv shows with the high leval practicioners demonstrated and their names brought out…that is what should be done
Monroe , you can superimpose anything you like about what you think I feel about and like about Afro diasporic dance and Josiphine Baker, but, its like your really chumpy pseudo political militarised description of my sex life with black women , extremly narrow minded and more reflecting of your own insecurities of what sexualising could mean
Not only that, you never had kids and ive raised one to adult hood, in this envirnment in Brazil, and if anything you remotly think is bad about naked bootie and bootie dancing doesnt manifest down here at all
Monoe, dont play like Im trying to tell you what to think, think what ever you want, I let you run this uptight thing about dancing you deam sesualising…you are a dancere and are uptight about pelvic thrusts?
Did you ever notice that Kiwi has never ever said one thing good about Asian American women? Not one good thing..he has bashed them relentlessly..
Kiwi really hates Asian American women..I dont trust one word he sais
Kiwi, cultural apropriation is what you are doing spewing black political rhtetoric in your anti interracial sex tirades..
I immersed myself deep in Afro diasporic culture, black Ameicans and black Brazilians have hired me to work for them…the highest leval black artists, and I am honored to have worked for them and they had the confidence in me , that I had learned the essences of the the music or I wouldnt have been on the bandstand
same with the dancers I have worked for, many styles, James Brown funk, tap, lindy hop, rumba, jack swing, break, locking, samba, coco, maracato, gua gua co, bloco afro, samba de roda, vassi, ijexa, afoxe, samba de roda, many many more
what do you know about those styles, Kiwi? that isnt cultural apropriation, its knowledge, that you dont have, all you do is talk, and falsehoods at that…
A while back, I noticed B. R. speak down to sondis, claiming that he (sondis, a black man) didn't know his own "culture" and that he didn't know it as well as B. R. did. I found the comment distasteful and patronizing, seeing a white man talking down to a black man under the pretense that he was the "expert" on the black man's "culture".
At the time, I didn't speak up because I didn't see it as my place to and decided to give B. R. the benefit of the doubt. But now, I see that B. R. has revealed his true colors. Even though he may not be anti-black, he remains blind to certain aspects of his white privilege, and still exhibits elements of white male racial condescension towards blacks and other nonwhites. Wasn't there a time when white men saw nude African girls as oversexed because being uncovered was part of "their culture"?
I noticed him doing the same thing to me. He told me that I didn't know "my culture". Is he the "expert" on that, too?
bring in the quote Kiwi, you have said false things before, I said a lot about sondis that much was deleted, but not that, I said people dont even know where that rhetoric comes from, and they didnt…i lived through it, and i even said black political activist history is not my forte, but, the naiveness surrounding the discussion was deadening
while you are at it, bring in a quote where you say something good about Asian American women, Kiwi, because all you do is bash them..the picture you have painted of Asian American women is tainted with some subconcious hate
you think I care what you think or anybody else here making nave statements , and repressing statements about dance , taking it on themselves to define for everyone what is sexualising…and then turning my objection into a black white tirade of uptightness about a white mans sex life with black women…that is sick
I mean Kiwi tries to pretend he is all sympathetic to women, but all i hear from him is derision and put downs and hate of Asian American women…I have never seen one thing good said by him ever about Asian American women
id be very distrustful of a guy who really hates the women of who he is
I can't believe this dude is telling me what twerkin means in Western Black culture, and that it is not s-xual founded on the fact that he lives in Brazil. Twerkin in its earliest form was a fertility dance, meaning "ready for mating," this is not sexual? Riiiight.
1. You mention Baker, I put her dancing in context, you disregard the exploitation and race mocking.
2. The historic context of the images of Black women have not changed since the slave trade, but you disregard this point, too. 3. I'm clear I don't have a problem with s-xual expression I just want more varied depictions of Black women. you disregard my right to this because of your opinion on the lack of activity of my v@gina???
FIRST YOU SAY I'M UPTIGHT ABOUT S-XUALITY, AND NOW YOU SAY IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH S-XUALITY? You've switched positions in the midst of an argument. You're arguing to argue, but you've now lost your point by doing a complete 180.
And to top it all off, now you're even going as far as to blame Kiwi's (who I've never seen put down Asian women) views on his own community (which he has a right to) on Black people too.
I'm gonna lose my temper, so I'm bowing out of this.
Yes Kiwi you're right 100% appropriation. He was disrespectful with a Middle Eastern guy on what he felt about what the war has done to his country too, because he (BR) felt he knew more through reading material than the man who lived in and experienced his own country. His done this with every minority here: Blacks, Asians, the Middle Eastern, and women. We are all stupid and BR is here to set us right. When it's Blacks he takes the Brazilian side, when it's Asians he becomes American and defends America by bringing up Mao, he becomes anti West pro Brazilian way of life as he goes back into telling Black people about themselves again, and when it's those of the Middle East he becomes the defender of American drones and all pro West again.
It's like clockwork.
on Thu Jan 23rd 2014 at 02:54:49 Mz. Nikita
@Ebony and Kiwi Hat tip(s) to you both for breaking down the subject of cultural appropriation, sexism, ignorance and all around Arrogance that seems to drip from people's mouths of this ilk who have the nerve (and quite a set of "brass ones") to try and tell use women, men, and POC in general how and what we should think, feel, etc. As for trying to (unsuccessfully) browbeat you into believing that your comments about Your own personal, real-life experiences are not worth adhering to.. perhaps his brain has been severely affected, due to all that azz worshipping that's been taking place on the beaches of "his" (sarcasm) beloved Brazil!!
..try and tell us women, men..typo
..perhaps his brain has been severely affected by the hot sun, that is.. lol
on Thu Jan 23rd 2014 at 02:59:12 mary burrell
@Ebonymonroe: Hat tip to you,Miss.
@Mz. Nikita : lol!
on Thu Jan 23rd 2014 at 03:17:37 B. R.
Yeah , Monroe, you are the one making it a sexual issue , and, you think you have the right to define what sexualising is…through western definitions..and you just arnt old enough to define that…you can only speak with your own opinion about how you feel, but it doesnt play out on the ground
And, you make it a black white issue, and reveal your hang ups about white men having sex with black women..with out knowing anything of details of my sexual life, you define it in the most steryotyped cliched tired black militant activist rhetoric, only revealing your own uptightness about the subject…very revealing about your charactor
You define my aprecietion of Josephine Baker in the same way, like its all some sexual get off…I told you to compare youtubes with Brazilian passistas, to see similar links, when you get parralel similar moves , from places extremly far apart, that is when it is proof its from the Afro diaspora, and that is amazing stuff
yet, you just again , take it to some uptight cliched psycho sexual bable steeped in black political antiquated activist drek uptight with a white man who has sex with black women
you would think as a choreographer and dancer, as you stated you were, that you could plug into these more in depth aspects
i mean how deep did you go monroe? here is my you tube page, look for titles like 'samba legends suite", "Arte Amada", "Beuatuful Samba girls" for examples I worked with passistas,
(www.youtube.com/91849) lets see your work
you are like these white racist always talking about white inventions, like they were the ones who did it
I wasnt inspired by you, Monroe, you didnt dance these dances, and the real truth is, im not defending this art for my personal loving of it, its for these wonderful black Afro diasporic dancers ,who i would battle for their right to practice their art and not be labled by uptight people who hide it behind political rhetoric
cultural apropriation? how would you or Kiwi define, Wynton marsalis playing classical music? Because the ability it takes to play the cultures i deal with takes depth, its not some surface pop culture , its the same as Wynton playing classical music, i defy you to define me as anything less than that
oh you havent heard Kiwi bash Asian American women? How conveniant, because Kiwi is relentless with his put downs of Asian american women…he has never said one positive thing
he has also put out false statements in a blatent flipant manner…great, the new political activism of the young people in 2014, shallow, uninformed, provincial, steeped in anti interracial sex, and destroys culture in the name of uptight sexuality…way to go…get as angry as you want , monroe, you deserve to choke on your cliched disgusting depiction of my sexual relationships with black women
on Thu Jan 23rd 2014 at 03:45:26 mstoogood4yall
Oh dang, ebonymonroe going in. I agree with a lot of what u said, especially about having BALANCED views of black women. Not taking out the sensuality of black women and black culture but adding in how there's more to our culture than just dancing or sports.
People have a narrow view of how blacks are because of how we are depicted in the media and movies. Sadly the west is who a lot of people follow and watch media from.
I don't respect beyonce and a lot of "artists" today because they just show one dimension of being black, they just show bottles popping and b()(ty shaking. If there is a balance of it then idc, but it Is not balanced. whites have honey boo boo, but to counter that they have wholesome families like the duggars, little people big world, superheros,etc. We have a lot of shows with us in a bad light, basketball wives, love and hip hop, but to counter that it is only a few shows and most of those shows are from the 70's 80's and 90's.
I don't have an issue with seeing certain movies or videos dealing with our history or culture but when its always the same theme it gets really old. perfect example 12 years a slave won an award, which is fine but what about the other black movies, what about fruitvale station. They just show our culture from a few view points(slave, drug dealer, addict, abuser, jezebel) just look how long it took for us to have a black princess and even that was a bit disappointing. we are just as bits and pieces of a human not a full spectrum of our culture or humanity is shown, that is why people are shocked when we have manners, are respectful, and articulate, because they do not see that side of us shown in the media so they think we are the exception and not the rule.
@ Mary Burrell ; D @Ms.TooGood, great point(s) as well, especially the points you raised about the comparison of "12 Years A Slave" vs. "Fruitvale Station"! As someone who has spent a significant amount of their youth in the Bay Area and Cali in general (yes, I'm an Airforce brat so I have, and still do travel extensively), I am quite familiar with the San Leandro/Fruitvale (BART) train station area, and this horrible slaying that happened to Mr. Oscar Grant (R.I.P.) as well! It is for this reason, and countless other examples of being told/shown how we as POC should/did/do "behave" in a stereotyped fashion from those on the Outside (be they dating, friends with, married to" etc. of how they feel we are supposed respond and react (according to their Limited, and often unaware gaze) to Our lives' events that really set my teeth on edge! Therefore, I am grateful to both Abagond and well-informed, educated readers as yourself (and others here) that are not afraid to speak uP and tell the trutH of our experience(s) as we live and breathe them!!!
Really interesting this thing with Mosh..
I see a huge amount of people come in here and give full formed opinions to white Americans, who werent born in America
What kind of hypocracy is this? Americans can say naive things about America, mosh did the same thing about Pakistan and the developement of the Taliban, and I brought in in depth referances that actualy could shed light on the subject…and had those insights classified as those of a white man, by Abagond, who also gave compliments to Ebonymonroes extremly sleazy rhetiric cliched false depiction of sex I have had with black women…she has no idea of what went down in any of my relationships with black women…none what so ever…but only resorts to stereotyped militant activist cliches to launch her hateful attack…because I disagree with her take on Beyonce's dance ethic
Its good to know this…to never let my guard down, to always be vigilant to disgruntled resentments that seem to lurk underneath some people of any color , at interracial sex of a black woman with a white man
Also, in fact, I have a neice who is part Afghanistan , part India and the rest my brother…I had discusions with her grandparents, who , the grandfather was an Islamic high up political person who was thrown out when the russions came in, and the grandmother from a well to do family in India
so, I did have some awaereness of the Pakistan , India, Afghanistan triangle
the kind of dirt being slung here is futile
on Thu Jan 23rd 2014 at 16:42:59 Ebonymonroe
This is absolutely the last time I will be addressing you.
1. The reason why the "sleazy element" was brought up is because it's almost the only context you have used to talk about Black women. You don't even say interracial relationships, you only say interracial s-x. In the "My adventures in porn thread," you went post after post, criticising women and telling them that it was liberating for women that you get off on their bare behinds on the beach, go home and ferociously masturbate to pornography to stay faithful to your partner. So you have already established it's not about some tribal nudity angle, it's about your s-xual pleasure. Any time a woman suggested that this was not liberating for us, but degrading, that their value was reduced to "a thing" for you to masterbate and ejaculate to, you went off on them. You cannot agree to disagree and hear someone else's opinion, not even on their own minority group.
2. This discussion was about Beyonce, a Western artist, who made it clear in interviews that she was exploring s-xuality in her music. This had nothing to do with Brazilian dance, as Beyonce is not Brazilian. Black women do not usually even have to study dance, they can usually dance from the time we can walk. I made it clear that I have no problem with s-xual themes in music, I just wholly disagreed with her including very young Black female children in it, because children should not be s-xualised. I also said that while I don't have a problem with Black women exploring their s-xuality, I do take issue with the lack of balance to the images that artists like Rihanna (in a video like "Pour it up" or "S&M") and Beyonce ("Partition"), produce, as Black women with platforms and influence. Time and time again, Black men and Black women have raised their concerns about what we call "ratchet" depictions of our Black women in media and entertainment, so this discussion is nothing knew. But you felt, as always, that it's your place to argue with us even though it's not your place. You understand the concept of it being your place as an American White man to tell a Middle Eastern man that it's not his place to talk about America, but you do not seem to understand that it's not your place to take Black people to task about things concerning Black people. You think everything is your place.
3. I have had almost as many White boyfriends as I have had Black boyfriends, so there's no point trying to bring it down to me having a problem with you being with Black women. You're the one who must always bring the sleaze factor in, just as you did in your first post here, "booty, booty, booty." I do not care how you live your life, but what I do find offensive is the fact that you continually insult my people on here by telling them that they know nothing about their own culture, and that they're rhetoric puppets. You have done this with Blacks, Asians, Middle Easterners, women, and now specifically, Black women.
3. At first, you approached the debate from the angle that "it's s-xual, but there's nothing wrong with it, everyone's a prude," and then when I bring up the fact that my major problem is with the 9-11 year old girls dancing s-xually, you switched sides, began contradicting yourself, and said "it's not sexual." You lost all credibility here, it's s-xual and then it's not s-xual. You're not making any sense.
4. You insulted not only me, by telling me Black British culture is nothing but "Pop" and that I don't know my own culture, but you also insulted an entire population of the African diaspora by belittling Black British culture. I bring up our rich history of Black British Raggae, Ragga, Soul, R&B, Jazz, Hip hop; I bring up artists like Soul to soul, Omar, Lynden David Hall, but instead of apologising for your ignorance and your ignorant statements about the Black British community, you skim over it and continue to insult me.
5. I bring up how much the images of the Black community still mirror stereotypes created in the West from the slave trade, and how much media has been shown to impact African American children, and how much a lack of balance in our representations is just another strand of our social oppression. But you trivialize this by telling me what I say doesn't exist and that it's just Western pseudopsychology. You have belittled Black oppression and don't even realise how racist you sound. You have told me I'm making up Black oppression. You have insulted Asian male commenters by telling them American racism doesn't count because of what Mao did, in the same way White people use the excuse that Africans sold Africans, so talk of our continued oppression doesn't count. I do not throw around "you're a racist," but BR, though you do not hate minorities, you display a sense of superiority and White hero over minority culture, time and time again, you try to belittle us and usurp your opinions about our race, communities, and culture all the time, like a Emprical, colonial, White supremacist. You don't seem to even realise what your doing, but it's time you learned that this is wrong.
6. I explain to you that Josephine Baker was made to dance in a banana skirt, and purposely danced like a monkey for the enjoyment of the White audience, so using her as an example is null and void. I point out that you are the one who has displayed how much you don't know about Black culture by trying to use her as an example of "Black artistic liberation," but once again, you divert, and instead being mature and being willing to be open and maybe even accept it, you just continue to belittle what I and other Black commenters know and speak on about our own race.
6. You mentioned that most women on the beach in Brazil are White, which means you don't know that testing has shown complexion is not a marker for White and Black in Brazil, as many Black looking Brazilians are majority European, and many White looking Brazilians are majority African and Native Indian. You do not even know about the race of the culture you're living in. Saying "White Brazilian" is an oxymoron, they're mixed raced, and operate their racism and White supremacy through colorism, not ethnicity, because they can't.
6. You insulted Kiwi in the interracial thread when he spoke on internalized racism in the Asian community, by telling him he was imagining it, and that he's possessed by Black militant rhetoric. You've patronised Black men on the blog when they explained that their concerns over interracial relationships were over internalised reasons, not 60's militant rhetoric. But you treat Black people like a monolith who are unable to come to their own conclusions and concerns, as though we were all in one room in the 60's. You have insulted a Middle Eastern man by talking down to him about his own country as an American, but then you become anti West/pro Brazil to patronise people of African origin.
You could have respectfully said, "I understand there are not enough varied depictions of Black women like there are for White women, maybe I haven't ever noticed it, but since you, the women who were speaking, and Abagond, are all Black, I understand these are things your people contend with. I myself am very liberal, but I see you're discussing images steeped in rascism for Blacks, fair enough." But you couldn't do that, you had to go off on a tangent and insult entire people groups discussing issues in their communites that are now yours, because deep down BR, you're full of White privilege, so you cannot help but condescend us and our communities.
You will respond to this by continuing to trivialize my issues I have raised about artists like Beyonce, points I and others like Sharina and mstoogood have taken the time to clarify, you will tell me I am full of psychobabble, that I don't know my culture, you will preach on the good work you're doing for po' Black folk in Brazil, you will tell me I'm imagining things, that I'm insecure about something, and that you're not impressed, you will tell me I'm a prude, you will use my race, geographical location, my gender, my age, my sexual experience to twist and distort what I have said and to discredit me. But you're wrong BR, you've been wrong.
Excuse the numbering, I don't always have the time to proof read.
*But you couldn't do that, you had to go off on a tangent and insult entire people groups discussing issues in their communities that are NOT yours
on Thu Jan 23rd 2014 at 19:41:43 abagond
I am not going to co-sign every little thing that Kiwi and Ebonymonroe said, so please do not mix it up, but you pretty much come off the same way to me too: like an arrogant, condescending white man.
It is extremely insulting to tell black people that you, as a white man, understand their culture better than they do. It makes you sound like a prick.
It is not your place to tell black women that they are somehow screwed up for not wanting to be seen mainly as a piece of meat, particularly by white men, given their history. One of the main ways black men and women are misrepresented in Western culture is by being hypersexualized.
1. What kind of ridiculous look at my point of veiw of sex is that? I never said i come off the beach and masturbate, I said if Im on the road, or if my wife is too on menstration…I know myself sexualy, unlike you who is a green apple still discovering your self…Any woman who gets uptight because I watch porn , is ridiculous, Im not watching them or asking them to watch them..you have a bad habit of speaking like you speak for all women , or like Im speaking about you or any women about watching porn..yes, you are uptight about sex
2. "your place as an American White man to tell a Middle Eastern man that it's not his place to talk about America, but you do not seem to understand that it's not your place to take Black people to task about things concerning Black people. "
what kind of falshood is this? I never said a middle eatern person cant say anything about America, I said its the hight of hypocracy that people demean the fact I could bring in more in depth information about Inda, Afghan/Pakistan triangle but lots of non americans have plenty to say about America..would you please get it right what Im saying instead of butchering it..my point is, I have as much a right and can make valid points about that area as any non American can make about America..constantly, how can she mop the floor when she is getting it all wrong? like you just did about Brazil, Brazil has lots of pure white people as white as the driven snow…you just dont know
more of your numbers after i post this
2. continued : oh your going to talk about Beyonce but you cant bring in Brazil? what kind of provincial attitude is that? that is a habit around here..dont show the bigger picture because it ruins the argument..its like white racists who talk bad about black people but not pull back th covers to understand white people were responsible
you need to look at a country like Brazil to debunk these Western psycho sexual analysis that try to prove too much exposure to this or that will ruin you…like the old you get hair on your hand if you masterbate too much..its the same repressed veiw of sex…Brazil flies in the face of these ridiculous notions, and proves people can be exposed to guargantuan amounts of sensual images and it doesnt make them abnormal..
and it just shows, North America and Britain are uptight about sex and race
time and time again, black women have been protrayed as ugly and not desired in the media also…Im saying the whole sexual concept , tied to western concepts and psychology and religion is ruined..it should be junked totaly, especialy by black people, because it really doens get black culture at all
give me two hours to answer monroas numbers, and dont tie me up with moderating me, and ill be happy to answer you Abagond.. i definitly got an answer for you..
3. oh yeah, well congradulations you finaly outed yourself as having inner resentments and disgruntledness in your subconcous about white men having sex with black women…yeah, i say blatently "interracial sex" because that is exactly what the hang up is with anti interracial relationships..its the fundimental truth underneath of any sickness about it
you know, either you pay the dues and immerse yourself in a culture and really try to get at the depth of it or you dont…bragging about it, running words about it, trying to make it like just because you are a certain race you automaticly have the culture, is bs…Wynton Marsalis went and immersed himself in European classical music, and mastered it, I didnt really study to be a classical musician, Wynton at that point knows more about the traditions of my European background, than I do…
I paid the dues to immerse myself in Afro diasporic cultures, I didnt copy them I went the extra mile
3. nope, I said its sensual..I am consistant, you are uptight about sexual issues, I say there is nothing wrong with sensual naked women on the beach or girls dancing Afro diasporic dances with pelvic thrusts..you are confusing yourself and are uptight by these dances
4. no, i said the things you , get that, you mentioned are pop culturist
please, you are exposing yourself..i like jamiraquais band, but they are cut and paste copy…32 bars jungle boogie/ 32 bars stevie wonder living for the city..there are some find British jazz musicians, but , you just dont know jazz..gosh, i think of analysing coltrane and miles, bird , diz..jamiriquai or soul to soul isnt exactly what I call cutting edge jazz…
5. this is ridiculous, I am very concerned with images of black people in the media, i have said over and over the legacy of slavery carries over into today in all countries that brought slaves ..you are just uptight about sex and superimpose its dangers over everything including your culture analysis
like I said, far more people are screaming at the media makes black women look ugly and unwanted…everyting Im saying is the antithesis to that
but you are all uptight because of some images of young girls shaking their booties…I happen to think its healthy…what is unhealthy is to not bring forth the best dancers who practice twerking, show their expertice and get their names out in the open..its amazing destroying black culture under the false pshycho analysys of western thought..i sure jetisoned that…
you say you really are open to black women demonstrating sensuality, but you balk at young girls dancing…i can bring in youtubes of young black girls everywhere there are black people and culture and you can find girls who will do moves involving pelvic thrusts…i thought you were a dancer/choreographer?
6. its your hangup trying to read into what I like about Josiphine Baker…I said check out some of her dance moves and compare it to some passistas in Brazil, there are hookups…its valuable to know those hookups..you are superimposing your uptight vison about how I as a white man, how you think a white man thinks, equates it with sex..you cant even relate to it on a dancer choreographer leval that you bragged you are..what is your problem?
6. ok, i thought constantly said that, you dont know Brazil..there are very very white people down here
6.I never said that about Kiwi, and internalised racism, I always said that when he and Jefe talk about the Asian story and the discriminisation that is great…
Kiwi has immence anti interracial sex tirades, and to what degree an Asian woman is colorised and has internalised racism in interracial sex with Asian women and white men, is absolutly not cut and dried and the majority of the time like that…there is no proof, its all speculation by Kiwi , using his Aunts and uncles as his main source…its disrespectable to Asian American women to just asume they are colorised and that is why they go with white men…that is a very dangerous stereotype to asume that is exactly the way it is and puts Kiwi in a very precarious light…all he does is bash Asian American women…thanks to him, I respect Asian American women so much now, if they tick him off, something must be really great about them
this guy hates Asian American women, bashes them relentlessly and finds a nice comfortable space here to do it as long as he includes white men in the bashing because you all dont really care about Asian American women and the way he disrespects them absolutly and totaly
you get these things I say so wrong, cut it out Monroe, stop twisting my words, that is really jive of you
Co signs Aba and constantly
BR i'm not bothering with repeating myself. I never said Soul to soul are Jazz, I named them as examples of Black British music, but you are still insulting Black Brits. The Black British Jazz movement was called Acid Jazz, it was an entirely different movement from Davis, in the same way you can't discredit Hip hop poets like 2pac because they aren't Gil Scott Heron. What the hell is wrong with you.
This is about race, it's about the history of the depictions of Black women from the time they got off the boat and were named wench€s. This is not about Barberella and the s-xual revolution. You don't even know what I'm talking about, you know nothing about Black history, all you know is Brazilian dance. I'm talking about White supremacist ideologies of the dangerous thuggish Black man, and the overs-xed Black woman, and you're going on about dance moves. I don't flippin believe this, this is the dumbest conversation I've ever had!
Just forget it, for crying out loud.
ok Abagond . prick huh?
First, I dont ever tell women that they are wrong if they dont want to be seen as a peice of meat…how can you get that so wrong
I say they have no right to judge other women how they want to deal with their bodies…and they dont have that right..to just judge and put down and superimpose what ever made them feel uncomfortable with nudity or pelvic thrusts in Afro diasporic culture…Im absolutly fine with black women on here not dancing naked, not investigating other black cultures like there are in Brazil or even liking jazz..I dont care, its none of my business, but dont come in cliched militant rhetoric condemning dancers who do dance naked, cultures that dont have a problem with girls dancing with pelvic thrusts, That is the real arrogance..trying to hide it behind either militant black rhetoric or feminist militant activist chlched rhetoric..ive seen enough in Brazil to question all the sexual hang ups thrusted on us in our anglo saxon societies
yes, im hitting hard on that, im provoking people about it because it is stifling
militant femininists should be much more concerned about a bottle of alcohol and the men in their lives who drink it than booty dancing and whether young girls do pelvic thrusts
i will continue next post
My comments in moderation, but I'ma leave it here. BR, I'm Caribbean okay, I know about whinning, twerkin, a55 clapping, the tick tock, hip rolls and every other thing you've studied for years I could do and knew about by the age of 6. If you knew about the history of Black women you would understand there are 3 stereotypes
1. The as-xual Black mammy
2. The sapphire
3. The overs-xed Black jezebel
Twerkin was a fertility dance, it was a dance about being ready to mate. It's not about pelvic thrusts, twerkin is where both bottom cheeks are clapped together. It's supposed to be s-xy, for these reasons, it's not a dance for little girls in hot pants, putting their hands on their knees, bending over and giggling their bottoms for the camera. You think this, you think that, you think this . . . IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU THINK YOU'RE A WHITE MAN! NOT BLACK, NOT FEMALE, YOU'RE NOT US! It has nothing to do with being prudish, I named Vanity 6, who were so direct that Vanity had a song called "pretty mess." She wasn't talking about lotion.
The point is whether it's Blacks, Asians, or women, you come in time and time again telling us what we should and shouldn't think and say, IT'S NOT YOUR PLACE. And then you have the nerve to tell us we're rhetoric puppets just because we don't have the exact same opinions as you do about our own minority groups. I'm not interested anymore, your opinion just doesn't matter to me anyway, so I'm wasting my time on something I don't care about.
black culture, Abagond….I have never told black people they dont know their culture…I brought in youtubes of Ms Taylor Moore, in the black women I admire thread, she knows her culture, black people do not have to practice, and many dont, black Afro diasporic culture, but Ms Taylor Moore is a young black American woman who has gone the extra mile to immerse herself in black American jazz hostory
I dont tell black people, I tell individuals who have made ignorant comments , that they dont know their culture..
Funny Abagond, you are very well read in western literature , much more so than i, it would be the hight of pompasity and arrogance to tell you that because Im white, I automaticly know more about it than you..or that I know more than Wynton Marsalis about what it takes to execute European classical music…I mean the thought of it is preposterous…but that is what you just told me
I didnt copy black Afro diasporic culture, I payed huge dues and hours and hours and hours immersing myself in Afro diasporic culture, dance drumming, I dont even consider myself an expert, but, extremly knowledgeble about the priciples involved going all the way back to the traditional African drumming and how it comes down into today, the connections the hook ups, pretty much 58 years of learning, im 64…
working Afro diasporic culture is also my profesion, i have paid the dues enough to be respected and hired by top Afro diasporic musicians and dancers..I know dancers personaly who dance dances that , if people are uptight about Beyonce and twerking, they are going to bust a gut at what I work with..that is the whole point, these people destroy black culture with Beyonce today and they will come to destroy black Braziiian booty dancing tomorow…its already happened, Gats negras blog ran a horrible article about sexual objecting black women in carnival, totatly butchering the truth about passistas and their culture..i had to go in and straighten him and his commenters out on that one…such ignorance
no , I work with these dancers, I know their incredible talent, I know their struggles, I know the people who dissmiss them, bury them and destroy their culture..you want to get uptight about it, sorry man, im defending great artists who deserve to be defended, from people who are actualy ignorant about the culture..hey im ignorant about computor programming and western literature, you are ignorant about jazz..you got a problem with that?
more in next post
*jiggling not giggling
Black women are the number 1 victims of rape, death by domestic violence, and make up one of the largest percentages of groups in s-x trafficking by force, despite their small numbers. From the time we got here, we have been painted as overs-xed and violent, and our worth reduced only to our behinds. Along with our men, our bodies have been exploited like lab rats for the world to oogle at, over and over again. Our men are reduced to the size of their members, our women, their tainted harlot readily available s-xuality, and their large behinds. Black men are seen as the menace of society, while Black women are overs-xed, baby breeding welfare queens, always ready to drop to their knees and perform sexually.
This had nothing to do with beautiful natural s-xuality, or femininity, it was about a narrative in the representations of Black women that have never seized, just shifted from meat on the boat, to the world's greatest loud mouthed strippers. You don't know anything about my people.
Argue with yourself, man.
Abagond, the negative comments on this blog about anti interracial sex are beyond arrogant, they are totaly absolutly disgusting, and there are towers and towers of comments all over ….
Ive listened to the most ridiculous things, it totaly insults my intelligence, it is sleazy , and horrible…yeah, my sensibilities have been ridiculed
if in answering some comments that are really ignorant about interracial sex , I dont really pull punches , for you, not in an interracial long term relationship, it means nothing, but for me, dealing with physical attemted intimidations since the late 60's, its serious war..and the comments on here leave me no doubt that it is still serious…the statements about culture on here are pop culturist at best, people say a lot of weak statements about my profesion, lots of misinformation…words doesnt mean you know these cultures, either you really know them or you dont…
Monroe, I was dancing the James Brown before you were born and a whole bunch of other dances, when you can do the James Brown get back to me, Ciara and that other young singer dancer as well as Sheila E
you know you just dont get it, you dont speak for all black women, you dont speak for black Brazian women and what I am telling you is what they have told me…and what Ive read they have said..dont flatter yourself to think you speak for these women , you dont, you speak for your self and your clique
lastly, Abagond, when you take what I have said on a discusion that doesnt relate to race at all, where I actualy bring in more in depth information after the naive statement Mosh made, and all you do is regulate my comments as those of a white man, when its about American foreign policy..then you really do reveal where you are coming from with me..all you can see is my whiteness in a discusion that has nothing to do with race
please spare me the America makes war on poc, more americans of all races and creeds have died fighting white people than any other kind of people,so you are really off base with that line of thinking and just calling my foriegn policy concepts as those of just a white man…they arent even fox news, im so against the grain of fox news…i bring in information you never heard of before
so, i resent you just calling me a prick, with kind of trash comments about interracial sex that run around here…
Monroe, the media also sais black women are ugly and not wanted
the media doesnt show black diasporic culture correctly
there are a lot of dances called fertility dances
its a proven fact that the pelvic hip thrusts get rid of sexual tension and is very healthy
the idea is to embrace the culture , take control, dont let them control it..dont destroy it superimposing your uptight notions of what is too sexualised..that is just western white thought anyway..you would think you would get that…what is wrong with you, Monroe? you are all rhetoric and no substance
Monroe , about violence and rape, alcohol and the men in the womens life who drink it , has a lot more to do with it than dances that have pelvic hip thrusts
not that many women get raped for doing dances with pelvic hip thrusts
You know something , Monroe, Im not your "white man doll " to beat up on and run the tired cliched militant rhetoric on , save that for a white racist
you have constantly twisted what I have said, into some kind of ridiculous straw man to run your read militant logic on..you are not even dealing with what Im really saying
My sexual relationships with black women have all been beautiful and respectful not the sleaze hung up depiction you put forth, that is more of a reflection of your own inner turmoils and concflicts and it demeans what ever other points you try to make
ive been with a black woman 28 years now, through thick and thin, we raised a child to adult hood and you can only break it down to some sexualy exploitive orgy romp…you got issues ..same with your ridiculous notion how I perceive Josephine Baker…why would I watch Josephine Baker for titilation when I have porn hub..your insinutation is disgusting…
I never claimed to speak for all Black women, I said Black women are allowed to speak. All of us here who were minding our own business discussing our community. The exploitation of poverty stricken Black Brazilian women is a huge problem in Brazil. You see their behinds but fail to mention their social conditions for being too dark.
Ciara's choreography is centred on Hip hop popping and locking, breakdance, and ATL club styles most of the time. Sheila E is most famous as a percussionist.
You jacked James Brown like Mick Jagger ha? BR, Black people don't have to study our culture, we live it. We, as little Black boys and girls have been doing this in our living rooms in the hood since we were kids. We could win the dancehall queen competitions in our carnival festivals since we were yuts. This is not news to us, you're essentially trying to tell me you're Blacker than me because you were biting our style during my grandmother's Sooouuul generation! A new low.
BR, do this, go to the hood, like Compton California, or Harlesden or Stonebridge in the UK, and when you hear Black youths criticising these images in their street talk, saying, "they got them looking like h0s, that's not where it's at." Go get in their faces and put them in their place, tell them their opinions about the representations of their race don't matter, tell them they're ignorant, tell them they don't know anything about their own people. Run that on them and you gone find out playboy. Make sure you tape it so we can all see how young Black men and women in the hood (where most of the music, dance and culture is created) react. let's see what happens.
I've never been so disgusted in my life. MY mum is White and Indian, she grew up in the 60's, but she will not mess with White men, she told me of this attitude and why she settled down with a Black man as a woman of colour. Now I see what she was saying. Ridiculous, a conversation about racist one sided depictions of Black women turns into a "Step up movie audition," by a White man who thinks he's Blacker than everyone else but knows nothing of why we desire greater amounts of intelligent, and fully rounded depictions of our own race. I've never come across anything like it. You could never say this stuff to my dad (a Black man), I couldn't imagine what would happen.
And no, before you get all "the big bad Black people are threatening me," I'm saying your patronising could never fly in real life. Unbelievable.
Black people are the least protected group that's why Black men are incarcerated, and murdered at their rates, and why Black women are so vulnerable, not because of alcohol, you don't know a thing about my people.
Children do not need to release s-xual tension, what is wrong with you? Whinning stimulates the blow flow to the private regions, and no one has condemned displays of Black s-xuality, we have asked for more varied depictions showing us a whole people, what is it you're not getting.
I'm not talking to you anymore you're making me angry. Don't bother me no more.
on Thu Jan 23rd 2014 at 22:35:25 Sugarkiss
Holly weird is a sick place. Unfortunately, I think that Beyoncé and Jay Z have long crossed over to the dark side, they are highly paid to poison the black music industry, party with Obama and promote what Miley Cyrus, Amanda Bynum(sp), Britney and all the rest of those Disney kittens were raised up doing; kiddie sexual slavery; This entire CD/video montage does exactly what it is supposed to: hide her lyrical intent the her dancing and cast a spell on these little girls, dubbing her as their life's aspiration and role model. I happened to sit through a video of "XO"–which seems like a pretty mellow compared to the rest of her videos and besides the reference to the weirdly referenced mickey mouse ears she wore (old HW occult) , I couldn't find one dark skinned black cpl out of ALL of the kissing couples in that seemingly harmless video. Just some random kid dancing with dark skin. No black ppl in love and promoted by a black world renown artist? Check.
Now while this may seem very harmless, Hollywood, music and the mass media controls this country's mind through imagery, symbols and thus have the masses killing each other to defend these artists!
If you have ever notices, Beyoncé's videos are always "validated" with a light skinned dark or a white woman who is just as naked as she is! Always in view, always very close! This is not done by mistake. Beyoncé has paved the way for white female artists to claim black cultural identity because she is paid to blur those lines. Beyoncé and the rest of this puppet artists are the beginning of the end of authentic black music. This is all done by design.
As a lover a music, I always listen to the lyrics and now that I have little girls, I am responsible for keeping them away from this garbage that has completely taken over our airwaves. Putting it lightly here.
I feel like these day where music is the innocent, creative vehicle it used to be are over. We need to be weary and start asking questions when it comes to the "why" of artistic artistry these days and more importantly FOLLOW THE $$. Some of us may be able to recognize an attack on our identity–our sanity and psyche, but most of us do not.
on Thu Jan 23rd 2014 at 22:55:58 Sharina
@ constantly
"you put yr two cents in…. you need to come with more change next time!"—Can I borrow that?
on Fri Jan 24th 2014 at 19:23:42 B. R.
Ive lived in the hood before, Monroe,and I got news for you, a lot of black people would be very interested in what I have to say about booty culture in Brazil…and a lot of black people like Beyonce…are you kidding?
Most of the time I raised the "you dont know your own culture" , was talking about tap dancing, and how it was destroyed and buried the same way you are destroying culture, and I would defend those great artists in front of anyone , including your father..Ive played in more ghettos than you have ever been to..are you threatening me, like Im going to get beat up and that is what you are hoping? Just bring it…i guess you dont get people of all colors actualy tried to intimidate me for interracial dating..ive been attacked by gangs before in new york and chicago, and held my own…bring your father..stop the bs
where do you stand on tap dancing? you think it was just shucking and jiving or high art invented by black Americans?
Ciara has done the James Brown, and Sheila E, she did it on the Arcenio Hall show once, really well , and I forgot her name, Janile or something has it too
No, Mick Jagger never came close to the James Brown, its the slop, I know how to do the slop and a huge amount of other black American dances, the black dances I was accepted dance way more than youth today, except the breakers, but that was several decades that break was innovated, anyway.
the hardest dance it took me to learn was my samba step, i never really copped the tap time step, but, I am a huge admirer of tap and the great artists who made it what it is
You actualy are going to try to say alcohol isnt a problem with violence to all women of all colors? You really have lost it..you cant look at reality anymore, you are so caught up in you rhetoric
interesting, when I came in, I didnt attack you at all, I just tried to show that being uptight about booty dancing or kids doing booty moves is in your world not mine…and you imedietly tried to make my beautiful sex life with black women as perverted…you got uptight about something I said on the porn thread and made the fact I masturbate, something Im sure you never have ever done, is perverted…my wife is going through menopause, she has blood coming in more than regular periods, its in her interest not t make her discomfortable in sex to not preasure her for it. And I know how to take care of my needs..but you make it perverted…like you are trying to make kids dancing booty dances…kids have natural affinity to booty dance and move their bodies, its adults like you who tell them it is "bad"…you have to look at your own nature to treat sex as something perverted
Budhism has wonderful concepts about the chacras , and can concentrate recognise the huge power and energy in that area, they know its more than sex but also have a great book , the Kama Sutra about how to use that energy
One of the gifts out of many by the ancient traditional African drum dance cultures is, they also recognised the tremendous energy in the pelvic genital area, as well as all the body fulcrums…they totaly knew how to tie it all togethr in a drum dance culture..made for all ages…as soon as Islam and Christianity bumped into this culture, they have tried to ban it, destroy it, bury it dissmiss it etc I have various referances to all kinds of countries, political backgrounds, religions, you name it, who banned booty dancing in one form or another, saying it was too sexualised
you are just doing the same thing..you think the black feminists would jetison the uptight white angst of the militant white feminist movement, but instead they lead with it, and just add some caveatts to make it fit into a black context
I hated the militant feminist movement in the states and it was one reason I left the states, I couldnt stomach their uptight notions of sex
no matter what you think, I beleive very much in bringing attention to violence towards women, equal pay, and, black women especialy…I just dont buy into sexual psych analysis by people who dont really know their own sexuality..and sometimes hate men
on Fri Jan 24th 2014 at 20:35:41 Kiwi
It's sad how B. R. considers himself part of a "brain drain" when he didn't even graduate college. Now that is beyond sad. White men have a tendency to assume they're hot shots even when they're nothing special. That's why they're better rewarded for the same qualifications as nonwhites. It's a manifestation of their attitude of entitlement, which he has displayed for all to see.
on Sat Jan 25th 2014 at 09:34:45 B. R.
Yeah, and , Asian American woman basher Kiwi, has the sence of humor of a dolt..
Abagond, Monroe, any Afro descendent on here , who feels offended , if ive said in the context of a debate "you dont even know your culture", if you think its some kind of one up insult , its anything but…
"your culture" , is my humble respectful acknowledgement that if you identify inside in anyway as Afro descendant, these incredible cultures, throughout the Afro diaspora are legacy and genius of the people you are descendant of…and that means I identify you with other Afro diasporic people and the links to their cultures….so many times , seeing rich Afro diasporic samba schools, or maracatu, or coco or candomble in Brazil, I wish some of my black American music colleagues or freinds I grew up with , were there to have their minds blown , too..
"you dont know" …you know its no insult to admit what you dont know…you could say the exact same thing to me "you dont know your own culture"..my father was a classical music afficiando and used book seller and writer, rarly oublished, but did have some books out. I was exposed in a big way …well read people here could look at his book collection and value it immensly…but, even exposed, I didnt take to it, I didnt really get it…and, i perceive that I missed something…and , I dont even know my own European background in depth culture…Im not saying any thing you couldnt say to me
I know I have white privalege , and you could also say "you dont know what it is like to be black"…the differance is, i can never know, but Abagond or monroe could come to really know jazz…for instance…and , the thing about culture, who creates it is the innovator, but, culture is for everyone , and anyone who sits down and really puts the time in and the serious discipline and respect to learn the depth of another culture, like Wynton has mastered European classical music
Monroe, I never said you were culturaless…I think you are very cultural..there is no insult being a pop culturalist, and i have a part of me too that is pop cultualist
but , "you dont know" is not meant to be a one up insult put down…its a challenge , that comes out in the context of a debate, like the value of tap dancing, or in this case, Beyonce's use of twerking with little girls…
and more than a challenge…its a plea…a plea to actualy check out these cultures in depth before you dissmiss them and bury them…check out the samba bare booty dances, but check them out in the context of where they came from in the black community and their tradition
actualy really check out the great tap dancers before you call tap shucking and jiving for the white man
Im pleading with you to actualy check out these cultures…the james Brown slop actualy came from people like Snake Hips, and Harlem dancers in the early fifties doing slide like moves to be bop and rock and roll, as Applejack Scoby described in a great docu about "Black Dance in Americ"…when I say you dont know jazz, most everyone here doesnt…only legion, Shady and Blanc 2 , with a nod to mary Burell for knowing Herbie's head hunters, can talk a little about jazz
Even the jazz dolts on jazz forums i go to dont really know the Afro diasporic principles involved
So, "you dont know your culture" is no put downb insult from me
I didnt finnish one sentance…culture is for everyone, and if a person sits down like Wynton Marsalis , and masters European classical music, through the real visceral immersion, discipline and respect, a person can master another culture
on Sat Jan 25th 2014 at 12:44:40 Ebonymonroe
I'm not going to do this with you anymore because I'm starting to think you're not all there.
In Africa, before the slave trade, a lot of African communities were highly religious, many followed forms of Christianity and Judaism, which are usually considered to be among the most conservative religions. When the slave trade hit, paganism and the occult was handed down from European slave owners to African colonies. So this idea you have that original African diasporac culture has always been made up of hypers-xualised peoples roaming around nude and clapping their bottom cheeks, is off. There's nothing Western about wanting Blacks to be shown in a more diverse light. During the 90's when Black owned record labels and film production companies rose up during the huge militant push and demand for greater equality after the Raegan era, before these labels were absorbed during a huge capitalist move where major labels bought out all independent and medium labels, we had everything from s-xy Envogue and Salt n pepper, to TLC, to acts like Toni Braxton. We had Lauryn Hill as well as hypers-xual artists like Lil Kim and Foxy Brown. We had Biggie but we also had intelligent Hip hop artists like Public enemy. When Hip hop began becoming big business, Def Jam executives have admitted that White heads of labels began asking stores not to stock acts like Public enemy and A tribe called quest, but NWA. They were also paying producers not to work with such acts. We have never had a problem with Black s-xuality, I don't even have a problem with Beyonce, we just want a return to more diverse depictions of us in our own culture the way we once did before it became commercial property. You seem to think this is all African culture is about but it's not. Even if you go to Africa, you will see from various tribal dances, night club spots and what have you, that this idea you have of a primitive Black people who's entire culture is about twerkin is not true. There's a huge African community in the UK, this description you have does not encompass African diasporac culture at all. You seem to think variation and humanity is only for Western White people. There isn't even any such thing as White American music: gospel, country, blues, rock, jazz, R&B, bluegrass, hip hop, rock n roll, big band, you name it, it's Black music, so there's no such thing as Westernized, in this context.
Secondly, no one threatened you, you asked me to go run this on passistas or whatever, I asked you to go to the hood and patronise Black people who have long had the same complaint about our images becoming more and more narrow over time, as we have become commercial products, where our culture became big business, to their faces. This is not about interracial relationships, this is about you patronising Black people, by telling us time and time againthat we are all rhetoric puppets because some of us are apprehensive about being with White partners, (which we are allowed to feel), and by telling us we don't know our own culture because we want more diversity showing all aspects of who we are, and have a problem seeing kids a few years out of their toddler years bending over and clapping their bottom cheeks together.
Lastly, the number 1 reason for domestic violence in the Black community is unemployment BR, not alcohol. Lack of employment leads to contentious home environments.
Listen, you're gonna have to try and understand that although you may have spent your life studying our music, you do not know anything about our struggle and oppression. Your ignorance on our misrepresentation, the variations of our culture, and the reasons behind statistics on violence has proven that. Along with your ignorant statements about Black British culture, and you condescendingly telling me that I don't know my culture and I've no substance because I don't want to see the children of my race dancing in a s-xy fashion. You have even gone as far to insult the Black British community in your rant as if this is your race to critique.
BR, it really doesn't concern you so it's futile wasting my time explaining to you 101 things you didn't know about Black oppression, and all the ways Black women and men are not shown in there full capacity the way White men and women are. Let's just end this because you don't get it, and to be honest, you don't have to, so I shall be ignoring you from now on.
Beyonce's Partition video and Rihanna Pour it up video were both inspired by strip clubs in the US, Beyonce said this herself, and the particular strip club she visited was one with White women, it had nothing to do with African diasporac culture at all. Whites have always dehumanized POC this way, like the me love you long time line by that Asian female character, or the glamorisation of lolita s-x trafficking in Memoirs of a Geisha. If you want to see the preservation of children being s-xualised, do it with your own race. Go speak out for Miley Cyrus, but make sure you demand she stop using Black women's bodies as props. Go speak out for the next Britney Spears a teenager posing for Rolling Stone in her underwear with a teddy bear like a little girl. Go speak out for the children of your own race. But when Black men and women speak out about the continued representation of their children as taboo mini w€nches as Manding0s ready to be plucked, don't try to tell us a thing because it's not your place, it's not your race. Even in middle class schools Black boys are only shown to fit in by being good at sports and Black girls are consistenly thought of and called ghetto, because this is the only way we are shown to the world; even our children.
Campaign for your own race, butt out of our progression it's none of your business.
One more thing . . . I apologise about misunderstanding your position when engaging with the Pakistani gentlemen. I can admit when I'm wrong
Ebonymonroe, I must not be communicating my points well at all to you…because your depiction of what Im suposed to be saying about Africa is not what i ever said
Primitive? I used the word genius many times, and, I have always clarified, Im talking about traditional black African culture, way before Islam, Christianity or Judeism arrived…you forgot to mention Islam…and , that is my point, the essence of traditional African drum dance music is surpressed as soon as these fundimental religions get hold
Some black African slaves were brought over in the Atlantic slave trade were practicioners of Islam, but , the overwelming majority of slaves were west African , bringing cultures over that werent affected by these religions
The fact is, Ive brought in plethoras and plethoras of youtubes , about traditional black African drum dance, covering all regions in ssAfrica, that show exactly what Im talking about, as far as total body immersion , but, not your depiction of what Im suposed to have said…what the youtubes I brought in clarify is, pelvic thrusts, as well as all fulcrums of the body , involved in syncopated , call responce , aggresive ,improvisation, based off fundimental steps , totaly co-ordinated with the cross rhythms , duple triple meter of the drums…sometimes , the dancers are clothed, sometimes they are bare breasted…naked booty is not as much of a feature as it is in Brazil and I never said it was , but the pelvic thrusts that play a part in Brazilian dances are inherited from these black ssAfrican concepts…and, I have stated many times, this was not the only cultures going on, I never said that was the only music type expresion in africa
what is extrodinary to me is that, you can link up throughout ss Africa, this drum dance concept, with variations in each region, but very connected in concept, like how much of Europe is connected in similar ways to express European classical music..but each region has lots of other cultures
I never mean to imply contemporary Africa, is like that, although traditional drum dance styles are still preserved as living snapshots , but, its in danger of being diminished…contemporary Africa has evolved into a huge variety of influences
Im studying rhythms and dances of Candomble right now , these represent the pure state of African cultures as they arrived , with some new variations added, very interesting that candomble, voodoo,and santera all have similarities coming from countries seperated a long way
I brought in Nigerian youtubes that havbe incredibly sensual moves , sexual is your term, not mine, I say people are uptight about sex and stifle culture that is sensual. where, there are a variety of factors in Brazil, not just black culture, that contribute to its booty culture, the Afro diasporic drum dance movements compliment the whole picture incredibly..Afro diasporic cultures throughout the Americas dont have naked booty dancing like Brazil, but , most all of them have pelvic thrusts ingrained, with definite exceptions, like tap
Absolutly , i support more sensuality, nudity , across the board for men and women of all races…the Beyonce question wasnt a race question for me, but stifling Afro diasporic cultures falls under the stifling sensuality…and, if she was using little girls doing an Afro diasporic dance , vamping on that is stifling culture…of course in my opinion
for me, it was two parts rolled into one, the sensuality question and the part, twerking that is an afro diasporic dance
Ebonymonroe , I mean, to understand my position, you have to know, the sensual is one aspect all encompasing, and , the points about Afro diasporic culture another, but, senuality falls in Afro diasporic culture also…which is exactly why it went through and its going through huge represion in the Americas and from islamic coutries that came in contact with African drum dance culture
and, my position on sensuality is, we have been sexualy repressed by our religions and how they carry over in our whole lives..because of that, we lost our sensuality…we are all warped
my personal opinion is nudity and sensuality in our lives is healthy, including children, only in the sence tha in Brazil , they are exposed to near naked women on the beach and the dances on tv…little girls do the Brazil version of twerking, baile funk, which has been deemed a cultural icon in Rio…so, for me, it has been proved without a doubt that it doesnt meke people abnormal
My intent was never to undermind the black struggle,, The people who are attacking the twerking , i would be in disagreement with…and i dont think its a universal black position…so I dont agree that i am in opisition to some official position…as a matter of fact the black community has always had diversified opinions…so its funny to me you would paint me as a counter point to black people
Ebonymonroe, Im sorry we have to go through this, but, it probably was inevitable…I feel very strongly about nudity and sensuality, which is one issue, and , I support nudity and sensuality in Afro diasporic culture and i have studied the hustory of the represion of these cultures in various countries
i know you are very pasionate about what you feel , I dont hate you at all, but i realise we are going to be in disagreement about this
on Sun Jan 26th 2014 at 03:14:10 Ebonymonroe
I do not wish to see my people as the barefoot and half naked symbols of the world. This is the opinion of many people I have come across in the Black community.
No, twerkin is not based on hip thrusts, the dance is executed by parting the bottom cheeks and then clapping them together in repetitions, usually performed whilst being bent over. There are many sensual dances that are perfectly fine and can be seen being performed by children, like, (refering specifically to the Caribbean community), whinning, or the dutty whine, the butterfly, or the tick tock. Twerkin however, is not one of them. I recall Obama saying one thing he hoped for in African American representations in the future is a decrease in the amount of degrading images of Black women and girls. You may be on a trajectory here in your perspective and quest to preserve and magnify (a mere fragment) of a culture, but you may be losing a winning battle as so many Blacks do not see twerkin as high on the list, and there's no way my community would embrace our children performing and being depicted that way to entertain the world.
As I've said, I do not have a problem with artists like Beyonce and Rihanna displaying their sensuality and s-xuality in their music videos, my only complaint is the lack of other sides they ever take the time to show. Where White are allowed to break in with various images with little effort, from Taylor Swift, to Pink, to Christina Aguilera and back again, Black women are not depicted as multidimensional human beings. You'll see, it'll be ten times harder for a Black woman like Janelle Monae to breakthrough.
Santera and Voodoo were introduced to African colonies through European slave owners.
One of my point is that although African and Middle Eastern dance culture is known for "hip thrusts," this hardly encompasses even a fraction of African/Black dance culture, although you would think it does since that's often the only depiction. One of the issues I have stated I've taken with you is how much you seem to think it does when that is not the case. Even if you hold a microscope to African American dance cultures from era to era: the blues in the south during the chitlin circuit, the energy and intricate dances of the jazz age, the 50's rock n roll/Frankie Lymon era, to Stax records and Motown, Funk and Disco, 80's Soul, all the way to Hip hop, the representations of African Americans and their culture have become so narrow as Black culture has been packaged and shopped to consumers that it's shocking.
This extends beyond the confines of music culture and into areas of historic narratives, Black oppression and the consistent misrepresentation of Black people and our culture.
As I said BR, this is probably something you will not understand.
Forgot to include New Jack Swing to that list.
To add to this, in closing, I can't see twerkin' or booty bouncing going anywhere in the Black community, and I don't think anyone is on a mission to stamp it out. The issues raised here were the MIA responsibility, and conformity of Black female artists like Beyonce, Rihanna and Nicki Minaj, in their neglect to avoid adhering to the one dimensional aforementioned historical Black female narratives that are continuing to be a part of contemporary social stereotypes and pop culture, partly due to their influential depictions. It's not about driving out the sensual aspect of Black culture, but rather, showing all aspects of it, this, being something the artists named, have generally failed to do, for the most part. With this being such a reasonable and small aspiration for our community, it becomes offensive when this aspiration is deemed as offensive and as something that stifles true Blackness.
Don't worry, I don't hate you either.
As you said, I would imagine we will continue to be in complete disagreement on this.
on Sun Jan 26th 2014 at 04:47:02 Pay it Forward
_ _ _
Vodun (AKA "Voodoo") indeed did originate in west Africa rather than Europe:
http://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/West_African_Vodun.html
"Vodun or Vudun (spirit in the Fon and Ewe languages, pronounced [vodṹ] with a nasal high-tone u; also spelled Vodon, Vodoun, Voudou, Voodoo etc.) IS A TRADITIONAL ORGANISED RELIGION OF COASTAL WEST AFRICA (emphasis mine) from Nigeria to Ghana. Vodun is practised by the Ewe, Kabye, Mina and Fon peoples of southeastern Ghana, southern and central Togo, southern and central Benin and (under a different name) the Yoruba of southwestern Nigeria.
"It is distinct from the various traditional animistic religions in the interiors of these same countries and is the main origin for religions of similar name found among the African Diaspora in the New World such as Haitian Vodou, the Vudu of Puerto Rico and the Dominican Republic, Candomblé Jejé in Brazil (which uses the term Vodum), Louisiana Voodoo and Santería in Cuba. All these are syncretized with Christianity and the traditional religions of the Kongo people of Congo and Angola."
As well, ancestor worship / animism (rather than Christianity or Islam) is said to be the ORIGINAL spiritual belief in many parts of Africa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneration_of_the_dead
"Ancestor veneration is very prevalent throughout Africa and serves as the basis of many religions. It is often augmented by a belief in a supreme being, but prayers and/or sacrifices are usually offered to the ancestors who may ascend to becoming a kind of minor deities themselves. Ancestor veneration remains among many Africans, sometimes practiced alongside the later adopted religions of Christianity (as in Nigeria among the Igbo people) and Islam (among the different Mandé peoples and the Bamum) in much of the continent."
on Sun Jan 26th 2014 at 12:58:55 B. R.
Absolutly, Pay it Forward, and I can tell you in my research about Candomble , that it is Yoroba words , like, Opanije, Ilu, Sato , and was not introduced by Europeans , and , in actuality was repressed, sometimes violently, in Brazil..some.plantation owners in Brazil did allow slaves to practice their cultures , they would be the only whites in a huge black slave population, and, there were huge communities of run away slaves called "quilimbos" that practiced their Afro diasporic roots and combined new elements with the native indians….
Ebonymonroe, Im not coming in to specificly defend twerking, im defending Afro diasporic cultures that get repressed bouncing up against Western religious values and racism…Ive gone to bat much more on tap than twerkin…I am consistant in my position, and a long time ago, perceiving how this cultural represion works , resolved to never condemn an Afro diasporic culture…I guarentee you, all you are saying, and these new breed of black political agendists, is just an echo of a design that has been repeating itself over and over for centuries, including the Arab represion of Afro diasporic culture…i guarentee you, all these represions , have turned out to be on the wrong side of history…and this will be too
to imply im overly focused on the booty dancing , is not understanding my position…where jazz used to have a lot of sensual dances , that were repressed also, now, it is as a sexual as it gets…could you beleive Im banging my head over at jazz dolt forums on this same subject , not twerking, but nudity and sensuality in art , and my position of the lack of it in jazz now…I get the same resistance, but not in the black political agenda context.
but i am a jazz musician now, which means im practicing an a sensual art…which is why i also work with Brazilian culture and dancers , and hip hop dancers also, to make sure I am in touch with those elements.
Presnt black women in another light? Like Betty Carter? Have you heard of her? Sarah Vaughn? Carmen Lundy? Ms Taylor Moore? Patrice Rushen, playing jazz? I am more than willing to discuss the high art and in depth music principles these ladies bring to the table , and am aching for some of these representatives of the black community you are talking about, who dont really speak for all of the black community, to lead people in the direction of some really high aceiving black women artists…but they dont, and in the lkate 60's , these people buried the black american innovative high art of tap dancing and never looked back, they buried Louis Armstrong and never looked back, only people like Wynton marsalis helped get people on track…tap never recovered and has a stigma in the black political militant activist mind set into today
Ebonymonroe, take out the repressing culture parts of your diologue mixed with the ties to Western religious / science uptightness with sex, when the Afro diasporic cultures rubbed up against them , and I dont disagree with many of your points about the industry
but, America's aproach is , either its raunch or represion (places like South Beach being the exception)…Ive seen the light in Brazil, and I can never go back
I am consistant up and down the line of defending Afro diasporic cultures, the ones that have nothing to do with sensuality and the ones that do….seriously consistant and focused…
I really would rather be discussing with you , how I feel Afro diasporic principles , developed thousands and thousands of years ago, was mankinds first expresion of organic fractal mandlebrot quantum theory, in a drum dance context…that also unlocked the secret to turning off the thinking brain and getting in touch with intuition…which science is now saying rules us, not our logic brain…budhism came across these priciples in a differant way, the ancient Africans were the first, and did it in a drum dance context
,,,just say something about what you said
belly dancing and Tahiti dances with pelvic thrusts are very interesting anomolies …they are some of the few cultures outside of the Afro diasporic cultures that emphasize pelvic thrusts…but, their presentation with the drums has serious differances
Also, India is one country that has a drum culture as profound as any…yet differant from the Afro diasporic concepts…the north indian classical music is more a linear phrase based brilliant display of mathimatical principles in rhythm…they even use 6/8, but as an accent , not a groove
South india actualy has groovy beats , very cool, but, its very hard to find Indian dances that have the total body immersion, pelvic thrust , shuffle steps concepts of the Afro diaspora
Im actuly hoping their will be a black feminist on the horizon that will regect western psychology and religious uptightness and white feminist angst, and tie in all the Afro diasporic cultures and the unbeleivable beauty and grace that is the black woman's cultural right to express in all its forms
who knows, maybe you will go back to your drawing board and tweak it and it could be you
I recently read of Voodoo and Santera being something that was introduced to Africa through Europeans. Pay it forward I was confused about this information I came across and would appreciate it if you (since you probably know about it) could either dismiss or validate it, if I post it?
But if they do originate in Africa fair enough, this, (religion), was not the point of my perspective at all. I have not come with a perspective from a religious or conservative point of view, but regarding noting the lack of the various angles of Blackness that are let through and displayed in a White supremacist media where our roles in cinema, TV, and the artists who are embraced by the mainstream are always a one sided depiction of Blackness, which conveniently aligns with the historical narrative and stereotypes of Black people.
Sarah would not be given the time of day now, she would not be the right kind of Blackness, that is only allowed in with the Amy's and Adeles.
I'm sorry, but since I have repeatedly clarified how much I do embrace the sensuality of Black culture (so it's not about that), and since the idea of more sides of Black culture being allowed in than the lyrics of someone like Snoop or soldier boy, in comparison to Common, or a place being available for an artist like Janelle or Jill Scott and not just Rihanna and Beyonce, but you're still naming this reasonable complaint being a Black militant or a religious opinio, I've now become deeply offended and no longer wish to engage with you from this point on.
@Pay it forward
Nevermind . . . hadn't researched the topic in years; it's North Africa who's Christianity, as opposed to the occult, predates European missionaries and the slave trade. Dating back as far as the first century. Whereas West Africa was centred on anumisn (sp?), which is the belief that spirits inhabit humans, animals and plantation. But it was not an organised religion. Along with this, due to Arab conquer and European influence, as well as some Indian, both Islam, Christianity, and (in smaller amounts) the buddhist religion, had become more prevalent in West Africa at the birth of the Atlantic slave trade.
. . . Although religion really had nothing to do with my opinion of the media and racism.
(Sighs.)
"Ebonymonroe,
Ebony, good God, No… the Europeans had nothing to do with Vodun…
in Jamaica, we call it "Obeah"… like Voodoo and Santeria, they all originated and from Vodun, which came from Dahomey (now called Benin). This where the Atlantic slave trade began and the Africans brought it with them to the Americas.
What makes the Caribbean "Vodun" different is that it also incorporates Christianity because in countries like Haiti, they wanted the Africans to be "Christians" because many of them were Animists or Muslims.
http://www.30-days.net/muslims/muslims-in/africa-west/benin/
"most Africans brought to Haiti were of the Yoruba people in Benin. However, this is due to the Dahomey kingdom conquered territories; which were assimilated through intermarriage, uniform laws, and a common tradition of enmity to the Yoruba. The non-Yoruba Africans came from the Kongo and Angola, with most coming from the region in which the Kongo people resided.
out of this chaos come a people that did begin to understand each other. Religion played a major fact in gathering the Africans together in unison. One of the more popular religion was Vodun which represents a rich blending of numerous African religions, including the Fon, Yoruba, and BaKongo (pg.88). Vodun can be directly traced to the West African Yoruba people who lived in 18th and 19th century Dahomey."
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2014/01/19/beyonce-yonce/#comment-211005
and remember, Voodoo came to the US from the Haitian mixed-race creoles who fled to America and brought their slaves.
that's why in the Caribbean, you will find many Igbo or Yoruban words in our "patois" or creole" (like the word "dupey" in Jamaican patois, comes from the Akan language- Twi, I believe)…"Obeah" is an Igbo word
the Africans in the Caribbean retained, incorporated, and passed down many parts of their culture and traditions (it's just that many of us Afro-descendants today are "unaware" of their true origins because the Europeans did their dam-dest to force the Africans to forget who they are)
Thanks, as I said in the post above, I was thinking of North Africa. How a convo on the disparity between diverse representations of Black people in comparison to White people got into Voodoo is now beyond me.
on Sun Jan 26th 2014 at 23:38:03 Sharina
Thank you for providing that information. I actually was not aware of vodun and that it was the other name for voodoo.
on Mon Jan 27th 2014 at 00:29:37 Linda
Ebony, not sure got into conversation either but in essence,
talking about Voodoo is not too off the mark as something that shows how the image of "black people" has been distorted.
because when many people, (whether black or white), hear the word "voodoo"… they automatically link it to something that's "sinister and evil" — black mans witchcraft, that's not a real religion but more of a "joke"…this image came directly from the white Europeans
who were on the negative receiving end of Voodoo (the slaves in countries like Jamaica) used it as a means to meet and put together rebellions… they also used it to kill the white people.
"Through the use of herbs and medicine, the Obeah man, was able to "miraculously" cure or poison (obeah) a person to death. Considering the development and practices (bloodletting) of "modern" European medicine at the time, an ill person had a much greater chance of survival by seeking out an Obeah man rather than a white physician.
The slaves in Jamaica, according to plantation owners, "were primitive and unintelligent savages", yet they managed to resist the planter's efforts to control and exploit them at every opportunity.
It had taken the white planters more than 130 years, from the first law that recognized the threat of rebellion (1684), until they implemented a law that recognized the tripartite association between slave rebellion, obeah, and poisonings."
http://scholar.library.miami.edu/slaves/Religion/religion.html
(so who were the "unintelligent" ones, since it took the white men 100 years to figure out that Obeah was not a "mumbo- jumbo" ceremony)
but once they figured it out, the religion became "evil", something to be outlawed and mocked as "savage" … turning it from a real religion and into some cartoonish, cult in the minds of society at large.
the same way black women are sexually objectified and booty shaking is seen as something "novel from dark Africa", so it's OK if black women do it but when white women booty shake, it is a disgrace because they are participating in the "savage" — the double standards just never end.
and if we really think about it, white western ideology has managed to distort just about "everything" that comes out of Africa…
on Mon Jan 27th 2014 at 03:47:29 Pay it Forward
Sharina writes:
You're welcome, Sharina. 🙂
I myself only came to know about it (as well as ancestor worship / veneration and animism) from reading my sister's college textbook on cultural anthropology when I was a teen.
I see that Linda has pretty much covered Obeah, Haitian Voodoo et cetera. In the Southeastern US, Voodoo is also sometimes referred to as 'Roots' (as praciced by a 'Root doctor' / 'rootworker') or 'Hoodoo'.
Speaking of vodun, I just realized I put in the wrong link. Correction: {for anyone who is interested}
"Vodun can be directly traced to the West African Yoruba people who lived in 18th and 19th century Dahomey."
http://www.religioustolerance.org/voodoo.htm
Ebonymonroe writes:
"How a convo on the disparity between diverse representations of Black people in comparison to White people got into Voodoo is now beyond me."
It was the claim that Europeans introduced Voodoo to African slaves that turned the conversation to Voodoo. It happens like that sometimes. The main reason I did not go too deeply into a discussion on Vodun / Voodoo is because I was actually trying NOT to throw you off your argument too much.
It simply did not feel right to me to leave that bit of misinformation standing, as I figured some individuals who'd read it, would simply take it at face value and not bother with cross-referencing it. . . .
"BR,
Im not coming in to specificly defend twerking, im defending Afro diasporic cultures that get repressed bouncing up against Western religious values and racism…Ive gone to bat much more on tap than twerkin…I am consistant in my position, and a long time ago, perceiving how this cultural represion works , resolved to never condemn an Afro diasporic culture…
I guarentee you, all you are saying, and these new breed of black political agendists, is just an echo of a design that has been repeating itself over and over for centuries, including the Arab represion of Afro diasporic culture"
BR, BR, my friend… you know I have luv for you but on this topic, you and I will never see "eye to eye" … what you're suggesting is that black/brown are naïve and have to form their opinions based on white people's opinions… you know that's not true.
what you call "repression"… is what black/brown people call " loss of control of their own image"… black/brown people don't control the narrative of how they are perceived in any white western society.
that's the problem… white society has assigned the "promiscuous slut" label to black women from the time the first ship landed in the Americas… demeaning Africans and their customs and traditions from day one.
this Disgusting image of black women has NEVER been Repressed but sustained and upheld by ignorance…the image of black and white women should be "equals" in the eyes of white western society because black women of the diaspora, as Afro-descendants, are also the children of white western society — instead what do we have:
"white women=virtuous good girls; and black women=easy promiscuous bad girls"
this image of black women being "sexual beings" is DEFINITELY a white man's invention, which unfortunately too many people in the Americas and else where in the Diaspora, want to hold up as something "Authentically African"… no sir !!! it's not… it's a white man's fantasy
black women are not in control of their Narrative or Image in the world, BR… that's why that Dutch magazine thought it was OK to call Rihanna a "nigga b'tch" –
Beyoncé and the other "good girl singers turned heaux" who want to explore their sexuality, shake their a's, and then want to call it "a black thing" — no bueno…
that's Beyoncé thinking that shaking her a's, is going to make her seem more "down" with her husbands JayZ's black fans and audience…. that's why I liked Lauren Hill (before she lost her mind due to Rohan), she was the one black woman who didn't want to play the "heaux" game and remain "classy"
As a former participant in the reggae/dancehall "rub a dub" and whine, I'm the last person who wants to condemn a dance but twerking is "whining on steroids" — girls/women who want to clap their a's cheeks — that's what strippers do — that has Nothing to do with Africa…there is no "Afro-diaspora culture" here to defend
it's OK to recognize when something has morphed from it's origins…especially when it comes to dancing.. (I'm sure my grandmother said the same thing about we young people when we were all doing the "dollar whine" back home in Jamaica.) — things change generationally and that's OK
but lets call a "duck a duck when it quacks" — twerking is part of the "stripper" culture that got popular… heauxs can be creative too — take a relative tame dance, add in some new provocative moves… boom… more money (see Karrine "Superhead Steffans for reference)
so, Please stop equating Africans with "sexual expression" and new world heaux dances
just because some of their traditional dances had "booty" shaking — this does not mean that they had no concept of what was considered "promiscuous" in their society.
Nudity might have been acceptable to certain African societies but if a bride came to the marriage bed a "non-virgin"… h'll and life to pay… chastity and having morals is not a white European or Muslim "Arab" invention..
even the Muslim black Africans practiced their old animist religions and they did not change the Core Values of their society just because they adopted the Muslim faith.
African women had to be "virtuous" because many African societies demanded it — that was part of their Ethnic culture and traditions.
"Greater importance is attached to virginity of the girl among the Yoruba. The girl must be found to be "virgo intacta". If the reverse is the case, on her first night, then she faces a thorough beating the following day so as to confess the culprit. But if she's found to be a virgin, then the groom's family will send some gifts to her house the following day"
http://www.africa.uga.edu/Yoruba/unit_18/cultureunit.html
on Mon Jan 27th 2014 at 10:06:54 B. R.
Linda , everything you say flies in the face of what happening here in Brazil , which has worse black people image problems in the media than the USA
You start speaking like you represent the black position, but , no one here represents some monolithic black position…I mean where were you when there was the controversy over the n word in the black community?
No one here speaks for the black community…
Ive been checking outntwerking moves , and you are dead wrong , they dont come from the Afro diasporic comunity…they absolutly do, we got cousins of that dance down here called "quadrinho", done by males also, your eqating it with stripping just shows your naiveness, Linda…wake up..look at the booty dancing thread, people out did me bringing in youtubrs of booty dancing that makes twerking look tame, from all countries of Africa…who are you trying to fool? Some extended discusion of how these moves are all in the Afro diasporic culture is not your forte, Linda
White racist medeia is no reason to bury black Afro diasporic culture…that is exactly what happened to tap…sex has nothing to do with this, why did you bring in a fable of virginity? and referances to strip clubs? That shows me where your head is at, Linda
I watched a youtube of a little girl twerking, there is nothing sexual at all about it…its an Afro diasporic culture move that works all ther muscles in that area and isactualy a release of tension in that area…which is one of the incredible things the ancient Africans gave us, that most of the resdt of the world didnt
I got up and tried the twerking moves, immedietly loosened two discs, then a sharp pain shot my back..but, ill tell you, the last thing i was thinking about was swx…its a very releiving good feeling in the muscle and ligiment and nerve areas
You, and Constantly, are just going to have to deal with the messeges from Brazil about this…that you both are naive about
constantly thinks its the tropic heat that brings in the booty culture
wrong…Brazil in its words sais female booty is national preferance
you see thonged bikini bare booty in prime time comercials…they are now just showing the escolas in comercials and the bare booty passistas are being shown…and here is a dichotomy…the bare booty real passistas from the comunity are being replaced by acrtreses and modals who cant dance as well
little children are exposed to this booty culture regularly and it does not affect their concepts of sex, as a matter of fact , Brazilians would be offended if you think their woman are any looser sexualy than where any of you come from, and in fact they arnt…I raised my son exposed to all these images and he isnt abnormal…as most brazilians arnt either…this barking at booty shaking and nude booty as bad for people is a bunch of crap
Beyone's image and dance ethic in itself is not the problem of black people in the media,,,you cant ever depend on media ever, anyway, it sells itself to the highest bidder and a small group of people run it, and people are going to gynoflect and warp culture to live up to standards set by uptight western religiois stifled concepts of who black people are? And if you really are concerned about black image in females in the media, you would be pushing Carmen Lundy, Espeanza Spalding, Ms Taylor Moore, Cindy Blackman, Patrice Rushen etc etc all living black women contemporarily on the scene plying their trade, selling their records, of various idioms…but no one here arguing it does (in spite f one clip of Espeanza dusscussed here, it barely goes into the depth she is about), so spare me the talk of controling high quality images of black women, you are not really interested in high quality talented black women
And, tap, which isnt booty culture at all gets flushed down the toilet also…the sexual hang ups got ingrained in a lot of black people to from this western up tightness…black people are not monolithicly united on this issue, Linda, andf quite frankly,this kind of uptight thinking would not think twice about destroying my wife's culture…and that will be over my dead body
Another thing, Linda, is your take on Islam and Afro diasporic cultures, or what you think my take is…
Brazil is one of the biggest Catholic countries in the world, with all that naked bootie shaking and black cultural expresions and nude booty on display, which I said is not some cultural property of the Afro diaspora, its Brazil's personal cultural expresion that is advanced over most of the rest of the world..I always said the passistas are some of the highest example of black Afro diasporic culture sensuality and power and grace and beauty, and that is because of Brazils sensuality and non uptightness of female nudity,is some of the highest leval in the world..not the only, but one of the highest levals
Islam in contact with Afro diasporic cultures works the same way…anything Afro diasporic culture comes in contact with ,it affects one way or the other , it may be a little or may be a lot..this happens throughout Africa..ive always said Im talking about the pre islamic cultural drum dance traditions as the filet mignon of the geniius that was brought to the rest of the world and dominates popular cultures where ever it goes…black Islam in Africa does have wonderful cultureal expresions, its not to judge them or say who is best, its to understand exactly what the original cultures were and what the entering Islam and Christian religions did that alters the cultures..you have to peel back the layers to understand excactly what that genius is, or you wont exactly get it..
your position in Islam in Africa , and its culture, mirrors the African Haolocaust blogs logic in a big way… and he is a black Islamic practitionor from Africa…he used Mali as this example how Islam and traditional cultures blend and exist…when Mali was just the prime example of how , after a benighn Islam co exists but a stricter Islam comes in and starts banning culture and music and cutting off hands..also, Mali has blatent examples of pre Islamic Afro diasporic drumming and dancing…this would have been destroyed by the stricter Islam…point blank…
You know, golple black church is the fonte of a vocal technique that dominated black American pop rhythm and blues singing and hip hop, it is extrordinary, and, amany great jazz musicians had fathers that were reverands, but the black church condemned jazz and jazz dancing just like many people are talking about twerking here…this is part oof black American history, Linda, you are a champ at black american political rhetoric and putting racists in their place, but, you really dont have focus on a huge amount of black American cultureal history, or you would recognise the repeated cliches about what is wroing with naked bootie or some form of bootie dancing..strip? yeah yhey borrowed from the black americsn culture like Bob fosse did in his choreografy,and interesting they actualy dabate whether to make pole dancing an olympic sport…
we all wwent through pop culture black AAfro diasporic dances, its tyong in th elinks all over that bring it together in Afro diasporic culture,, understanding that means going beyond the rich pop cultures we grew up in..that is why i would never say you are cultursalless, you are very cultural, but, until I started immersing myself as a profesional musician and looking way past my pop sensibilities, its then the real insights start coming together
@Linda and Pay it forward
Thanks for the information. Don't worry, I wasn't offended by it, that's why I asked . . . was just starting to feel frustrated over such a long, and obviously pointless debate defending the concerns Black women and men have about their few representations.
It's interesting what you pointed out about Black vs White female s-xuality @ Linda. Along with this, I've noticed that White women are allowed to explore their s-xuality and it be perceived as brave and rebellious and groundbreaking, and still remain credible and "human," because they're thought of as pure, but Black women are not, as their s-xuality is thought of as sordid, taboo, and automatically overactive due to a narrative of Black women burned into the Western psyche. So any displays of Black female s-xuality just confirmes this and causes a reaction of disgust. For example, someone like Madonna: released a porn book, de€p throated a vegetable during her documentary, had simulated group s-x with cross dressing men and women while images of Christ hung on the wall, in a music video, in a country known for being extreme in its Republican Christian conservatism, (America), and, flashed a mid 50 year old brea$t live on stage in the Middle East.
Janet: after a legendary career, is Blacklisted by MTV and VH1, banned from attending the grammys, and cut from a movie role, after accidentally having her brea$t exposed during a super bowl performance, no matter how much she apologised.
Thanks sweetheart. But I think the last laugh is on me for that very reason. Lol.
This topic on Black entertainers selling out and allowing their culture to be exploited reminded me of Ice Cube's song "True to the game," and what he said about Black culture being cheapened.
Sorry BR, hate to break it to you but "twerking" is from the "stripper" culture – it's not some long lost "African" tradition or representative of "Afro diaspora" culture…it's not my hang-up, darling…. that's just the way it is 🙂
calling me "naïve" is just a defense mechanism on your part….but that's OK, your position is still wrong, no matter how you slice it.
The traditional dances we do in the Caribbean and in Africa, don't look anything like "twerking"… please show me where in our traditional dances — women are going down on all fours, putting up one leg and dry humping the ground while clapping their a's cheeks…. that's what "twerking" does… so please spare me…
clapping butt cheeks loudly while simulating humping movements like you're on a pole, got popular in the strip clubs first (Jamaican dancehall go-go dancers {aka strippers} have been "twerking" since the '80's) — do I want my daughter looking up to a "go go" dancer and following her lead.. no, I don't think so
since you are immersed in black American culture, then you should know that everyone calls it "booty dancing" for a reason… because strippers "booty dance" at the "booty club"
don't try to turn it into some kind of African art form… you are trying to "dress up a pig and call it a princess"
I come from a country that has just as much "African" retained in our culture as Brazil, so you can lose that spiel, BR… it has no traction with me…
black/brown Brazilian women do not represent the rest of us in the world.
it's not about Politics, amigo…. it's about "lack of respect" for black women and our bodies, and how black women are perceived in the world at large.
I know that the young women that "twerk" are just trying to have fun… I get that… but they are doing a "heaux" dance… and the part that bothers me is that as far as society is concerned — it's OK if they do dance like "heauxs" because they're black and no one is surprised … but when young white girls do it, then "twerking is a problem"… I have a problem with the double standards, BR
I don't support anything that further damages the image of black/brown women
and the sad reality of all of this is: no matter what black women do or say, they don't control how they are perceived by SOCIETY…. that's not the media, BR, that's called HISTORY, thanks to white men.
Wake up, brother…. black/brown people speaking out against things that HURT us or our image, is not about Politics… it's about our Life and how we FEEL about how we are perceived.
if you fail to understand that, then as I said, we really have nothing to discuss…
I just wanted to put out my Rejection of your "theories" about black/brown people adhering to some black American 1960's political agenda… by making that statement, it just shows that you really don't get it.
as for Madonna, trust, she got LOTs of backlash and caught a lot of h'll for the things she did… and because Madonna came out the dance scene (aka black club scene), the media/white society got on her for "hanging out with too many black people) — that's the excuse they used to rationalize her heauxish behavior…once Madonna married Sean Penn, she got her "white card" re-established.
but you see the pattern right: Christina Aguilera starts acting/dressing like a "heaux"– she's accused of having too many black friends.. Miley Cyrus twerking..too many black people around… Justin Bieber acting like a little a's, his black friends get the blame..
Linda, the booty dancing thread was just replete with exactly those kinds of moves from youtubes in African coutries..go reveiw for yourself, it was right there…right on this blog…
ballet has an exercise called "grand-plie in the third position" it works the taylor muscles, that is what really is affected, Ive watched a couple of twerking youtubes and one "how to" and they bend into a third posigion full bend , but put their hands on their knees sometims ,and do various exercises that work the taylor muscles very well…excellent exercise for that area
this discription you give is some kind of low leval way to describe it, I dont see it at all..its like if people want to see it as dirty they will
this is like some Sotomeyer put down of black women , but its a political agendised version putting down black culture
I so sorry , Linda, look up youtubes of "quadrinhos Brasil" I mean, if you can start finding similar moves in other Afro diasporic dances, that is a great sign its part of the Afro diasporic culture…what doesnt transfer into Brazil, is a political agenda against interracial sex, they just dont have the filter
Yeah, Linda, guess what, you could lift up the whole Caribean basin and it would fit in Brazil, and Brazil has as much diversity of culture as the whole Caribean basin
Sorry too, stripping is replete with borrowed Afro diasporic moves…everyone else borrows from Afro diasporic moves, why not stripping
stripping evolved too, they didnt always have the pole..now pole dancing is all main stream, even argued for the olympics..im not hung up on stripping , anyway, but, I dont need to go to a strip club because absolutly drop dead women in the smallest bikinis, styled better than Victorias secret are on my public beach where families come and it is accepted and everything is natural with out this need to lable nudity and pelvic thrusts as "bad"
Linda, you arnt going to care what I say, fine, but you are going to be on the wrong side of history
dont be surprised if Ciara or Janelle do a twerking video in the future
lets just agree to disagree…
hey constantly, i dont really feel beat down at all
doesn't matter, BR… Brazil doesn't represent black/brown people– our struggles or our image
that's why the Brazilian black people there are still struggling for equal rights in that country… something we in the Caribbean "took" for ourselves…it's not about size, it's about substance.
no, BR.. I don't think so
Ciara and Janelle would just be 2 more black female entertainers lowering their standards and doing a heaux dance…:-)
Linda, what do you mean? Brazilian black people have a huge representation just because they are the biggest Afro descendant country in the world after Nigeria.
You know, any black person has the right to represent themselves the way they want to..making mandates of what is good or bad does not mean everyone is on board
The way you put it, its like all the black Americans are against it…I dont buy that at all…you cant turn this into like this is how black people feel about it
take a poll on this blog…go ahead…Afro descendents only "is twerking a negative dance image?" I wonder if every Afro descendent would be on board
certainly outside in the real world, huge amounts of black Americans arnt against twerking…
you are asuming a lot about Brazil, a country you dont know about…they had huge amounts of Quilimbos, communities of run away slaves, various slave revolts in Salvador and is absolutly one of the richest countries in Afro diasporic culture, that is why im here, and not Jamaica…Im not afraid to say Im naive about Jamaica, and dont really know what is going on there
forgot to say, I love you too , Linda
and because you are naïve about Jamaica, you "assume" I'm naïve about Brazil's history regarding slavery and it's black/brown culture…
you forget, I'm part Latina, I am well aware of the life of black/brown people in other Latin cultures.. afro-Brazilians and their culture are not unique
on Mon Jan 27th 2014 at 22:20:53 solesearch
Dear B.R.,
The bottom line is that black people don't need you to protect our culture from us. We have a right to shape and define our culture however we want. We don't need you policing our blackness. Black culture isn't some static never changing thing. We have a right to change our culture according to our reality and according to our needs. The needs and reality of black women have been expressed to you numerous times on this topic but you continue to ignore both.
It seems you believe you are the voice of black brazilians on this blog, you are not. You are not black! You are not BLACK! You are NOT BLACK!
Please stop trying to police OUR culture which includes our politics.
You're worse than all the racists on this blog put together.
on Tue Jan 28th 2014 at 02:12:23 Ebonymonroe
Lol @this
1. Asks, "how can you assume about Brazil?" After accusing and assuming all Black members of the board don't support artists like E Spalding.
2. Makes assumptions and insulting remarks about Black British culture after raging about his respect from African diaspora culture.
3. Says he does not get off on the nudity in Brazil, but then goes on to say he doesn't need the strip club, he's got the beach. After his first post telling of the pleasures of viewing booty, booty, booty.
4. Black culture being diverse, and not some primitive hypers-xualised society in times past and now, contrary to the descriptions he's put forth and this is pointed out to him repeatedly. He corrects the interpretation by adding the label of "genius" to his suspicious outlook on Black culture, but then goes on to credit African culture for strip club dancing.
5. He doesn't think we are coming to our own conclusions about the exploitation of Black s-xuality in the media, we are a monolith that is a puppet of 60's political rhetoric, no matter our age or geographical location. Tap being pushed out many, many decades ago, because of the stigma surrounding it, is not actually the reason why tap is no longer in, it's because it's 2014 and the kids are not thinking about tap dancing in the club . . . but no, every Black man, woman and child, actually has tap dancing on their minds and are all making a conscious decision to reject tap dancing because as a monolith of 60's political militant rhetoric puppets, that's what we would do.
6. It's a well known fact that Afro Brazilians are pushed to the slums, find job opportunities ten times harder to come by, and have a much lower quality of life compared to White looking Brazilians. He's previously stated, in posts, on the board, that Afro Brazilians are not represented in media, but now corrects the poster by saying this is an assumption, and they are represented.
Of course this is surrounded by the question of how can you assume about Brazil? After another neverending episode, where he makes racist generalisation after racist generalisation and assumption about Black people. A few I have highlighted above.
Well, with that folks . . . this has been fun.
She dropped the n word a moment ago, so she's got that White card for good now.
on Tue Jan 28th 2014 at 03:23:34 lifelearner
@ Linda and Ebonymore
*thunderous applause* 😀
on Tue Jan 28th 2014 at 09:07:18 B. R.
Solesearch, you were hung up on the bootie dancing thread, i expect this kind of post from you. Its your Christian values…fine for you, get them away from cultures you know nothing about, like bare booty dancing from Brazil..I dont like people who let religious values cloud their brain, to be in charge of mandates that state what is good or bad about dancing..Abagond's Christian values are against abortion…I sure dont agree with that
Ive stated many times Im white, dont let your lack of awareness of other cultures hold me back from learning…if I relied on you for awareness of black culture , i would be at a very limited perspective
You know, Monroe, and constantly are like two overseas, continental, across the atlantic posters tryingh so hard to look down and like they can just show a white man how to just step and tippy tap on, yet extremly low on any substance. monroe only can find my wonderful relationships with black women as perverse, cant understand the differance from sex and sensuality, and sets up soul to soul and jamiriquay as jazz
you know, I could just go to Rio, Recife, New york, Chicago, los angeles, cities i have spent time in and played with great musicians there, make groups out of my colleagues there and wipe out any group she mentioned in playing real jazz…seriously, mop the floor with them, playing real jazz…hey sorry , real jazz is up tempo be bop playing coltrane , miles , shorter…i mean is this some kind of joke? i paid serious dues in this business to really learn how to play real jazz, not cut and paste jungle boogie into stevie wonder
as well as brings in her mother and how she hates to date white people, I mean I really can see her real feelings front and center, and what has that got to do with Beyonce and her use of twerking?
Both of them make their little digs about Brazil's social problems, now what does that have to do with Brazil's bare booty dancing culture? And, their take on Brazil sound extremly provincial, they might as well smoke a corn cob pipe, and be country bumkins on a log..you too , Linda, sorry that, "I know the struggle of black and brown people in latin america"you cant hide behind it…you would break your face trying to run what you have run here, you dont speak the language, and, i dont think you come from here , but, this really uptight anti interracial sex with white people would just go flat as a board, there are no uptight filters in black Brazilian women, they are advanced over north america and Bitain in that respect…any women who slanders my sex life the way she did , just because im white, is just a walking time bomb ready to explode on the white date that would disagree with her..white women date black men and can be racist, monoe isnt racist, she is biased, like i said, i dont think that is your problem…by the way , my son is more Afro descendent than you, and he understands his culture
you go and try and tell some baile funkers and quadrinhos this information
and go look at the origins of the moves that Linda atributes to these moves in strip clubs. Do you think they were playing that style music 70 years ago in strip clubs? those were influences outside of strip that came into it
what is really perplexing is, this big argument of needing to get a hold of "our images" because of the "jezebel" stereotype from white people…so , the answer is to take culture and gynoflect and back flip to control it strictly because white people have this stereotype..that is just still being bounced off the walls by white people…there is no autonomy or control what so ever, you are letting white people bounce you off the walls
bottom line, if twerking upsets anybody here, the culture of bare booty passistas and their provacative moves , would mess you up, and , you would do what you are doing here, dismiss it, bury it and destroy it, my wifes culture and the incredibly talented dancers I work with,and, i wont let that happen…yeah we are going to battle until the end, but, im meeting you at twerking and baile funk before you get your uptight hands even close tom samba…you have to deal with me, and if this is your example of how, that is extremly weak…you better bring more to the table than insults and some kind of pop militant politicised tired cliched rhetoric that is the Sotomeyer version of destroying culture , and mixing religious up tight notions of what is bad and good about dancing…yes, differant people here represent differant arguments, im not atributing all arguments to each person
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXryJkvQS5o&oref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DAXryJkvQS5o&ha)
why are you giving mis information, Linda? This is a traditional dance from a country in africa. you have to sign in to verify your age on youtube to see it
i could go on and on and on bringing in african youtubes with booty dance that makes twerking look tame
your misinformation is typical of other posters on here, cronic on this thread by these other posters also
so this is your argument to me sasying there is no booty dancin in Africa?? misinformation
on Tue Jan 28th 2014 at 10:25:49 abagond
Recommended reading for those following this thread, a guest post by a black Brazilian woman:
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2010/01/07/black-brazil-in-the-black-gringo-gaze/
She is talking about how Black American tourists misperceive Black Brazil. B.R. makes many of the same mistakes.
oh,oh , Im not surprised you would bring this in, abagond and ive disagreed with many of her points, and ive brought it out on here, this is a women who has no afinity with black culture in salvador, is an admitted heavy metal fan ..no , i dont make anymistakes, Abagond, I can see through her falacies better than anyone on here…
Here is another case where you just up and agree with someone , and you dont know the whole dynamic involved in brazil
why dont you also go to
http://www.brazzil.com click in 'time magizines hysteria over prostitution in brazil" and watch me work over her husband and bring up points about that article, in the real way i like to roll..not strapped in by your praetx chains on me..why dont you just see how i really feel about it
Solesearch, I dont trust anyone who lets religious thinking cloud their judgement about these dances and what is good or bad about them…religions like Islam, and Christianity have been major destroyers of Afro diasporic culture
the black church was very guilty of condemning jazz and jazz dancing, the exact same way you are uptight about booty culture
"you are not black" save that for the white kids running around with grills in their teeth
it takes a lot more to immerse yourself deeply in serious afro disporic cultures that take far more effort and discipline than wearing a grill, your pants low and speaking ebonics
by your logic, Wynton marsalis is trying to be white for playing classical music
by your logic, you are trying to be white copping white angst uptight religious values to condemn afro diasporic booty cultures
by your logic everyones arguments here are the white uptight about sex and naked booty, why are they trying to be white…by your logic
the fact is, Abagond, by me living in Brazil 28 years , means I can see through many of ana's holes…I actualy agree whole heartedly about her point that black american black militant political agendests have no business telling black Brazilians how they should deal with their racial problems
Im totaly on board with that…but , she implies black Americans are fooling themselves looking for origins and cultural roots in Salvador…that is totaly bogus, there is huge information and insights any black American who makes an effort to find out about these cultures
just which points am are the mistakes im making?
black Brazilian women are easy for sex? (this is one of the things Ana criticises of misconceptions about Brazilian women and i agree and stated it here) wherer did i ever say that? you are you just butchering my position…what i am saying is, the sensuality involving the female nude body, especialy with focus on the booty, is in huge affect, you do see , on a beach in rio or where i live drop dead gorgeous girls arrive on the beach in imposibly small shorts, and they wiggle out of them into incredibly small bikinis banned north of South Beach in the USA…
and, in Rio, there is a spectacular dance culture from the passistas , of bare booty provacative Afro diasporic culture…it is the only bare booty dance culture in Brazil, and it is from the black communities in Rio, and spread to other cities, the art of the passista…its not white invented, and the white people are trying to get models and actrises as the main protaginists who cant do the dances as well
so , like other people on here , you are just putting out a false impresion of where i am coming from
look, the Brazilian experiance, is brought on here, to show that western psychology notions of what is good and bad for you about sex and suposed images that are "sexualised", is totaly ridiculous, because it is happening in Brazil and people arnt abnormal about sex…that blows the whole uptight about the damages certain images might be, out of the water
it makes it invalid…that is the point, you cant have a country like Brazil exist with normal attitudes towards sex, and prove seeing images of pelvic thrusts and bare booty is bad
i reject these uptight western religious saturated views on sex and what is bad in dancing, hideen behind militant political rhetoric garnered from old stale black and feminist activist dogma , that talked about these subjects …that does not include activist rhetoric that actualy deals with the more important problems than booty dancing, nudity, , what is acceptable and not in dancing, and interracial sex hang ups
this nothing but pop political activism light..and misgiuded
These points from Ana's post pretty much apply to you:
1. "The women: Black American men tend to see Brazilian women as more natural, easy-going, sexy and less overweight than their own women back home. "
2. "They apply their own ideas of what is truly "African" to Brazil. That determines what they see and know, like capoeira, but not, say, black symbolist poets like Cruz e Souza."
3. "Few bother to learn its history or read its great writers."
I pretty much agree with Solesearch that you are trying to police black culture.
YOU have determined what is truly black. When blacks disagree with you, people who live and breathe black culture BY DEFINITION, you, a white man, corrects them!
YOU determine what is their proper politics (not feminist or militant or Marxist).
YOU determine what their proper religious beliefs should be (not Christian or Muslim) and its proper place in their society (it should have nothing to do with ideas of modesty and thereby obstruct your view of naked black booty).
YOU determine what is appropriate in their music videos (the main subject of this thread).
YOU determine socially acceptable levels of nudity (not so "uptight" that you would have to go to a strip club).
YOU determine what music they should listen to (not heavy metal, apparently).
Anyone who does not follow YOUR ideas of what is truly black does not have to be taken seriously. Apparently because they are "not black enough". But YOU, a white man, should ALWAYS be taken seriously because YOU JUST KNOW WHAT IS RIGHT FOR BLACK PEOPLE.
How nice.
Bracing for impact! By letting through your comment, I will pretty much have to let through anything B.R. says in response.
I would imagine the difference between Wynton and you, is that he probably didn't try to dictate to White people about European culture, but you do this with Black people.
Oh be quite, I have no problem with interracial relationships. If I was single, I probably wouldn't think twice about it. I've never gone out with a White guy who patronised me about Black culture before, trust me, you're a rarity. . . Well, in England.
No one has condemned you enjoying and practising Black culture, they have condemned you dictating what is Black to Black people. This is what you're not getting. That is wrong, it's condescending, and it smells like it's just another form of racism. Racism is a system where Blacks are oppressed, by oppressing the views of Black people on their own community, you are helping a system called "racism," this is why you're a racist. You don't hate Black people, but you have a sense of superiority over their own community. I said my mum said she was always nervous about dating a White man because of this attitude you've displayed, so she married a Black man. You have proven that women of colour who are nervous about relationships with White men have a reason to be.
Lastly, if my dad is Afro Jamaican, my mum Indian Caribbean and Swedish Irish, I grew up in a Caribbean community, and your son is half Afro Brazilian, meaning he's probably not even 50% Black, how is your son Blacker than me? Dude, what the hell is wrong with you? You've gone straight back to the Black olympics, first with music and now your kid, you're insane.
Spike Lee on Tarantino, "what, does he wanna be an honourary Black man or something?"
This is the most bizarre "White people experience" I've ever had in my life.
+ Heavy metal is not European music because . . .
Heavy metal is a descendant of heavy Rock, (eg Guns and Roses whose original guitarist, Slash, is Black)
Heavy Rock is a descendant of Psychedelic Rock (whose King was Jimi Hendrix).
Psychedelic rock is a descendant of The Distorted Blues (Howlin Wolf) and . . .
Distorted Blues is the descendant of The Blues. (BB King)
Isaiah Washington "Love Jones," "Let me break it down so it can forever be broke."
on Tue Jan 28th 2014 at 15:42:51 buddhuu
Wow. Pwned.
. . . although you did ask for it.
*You won't accept the views of African Americans engaging with you.
*You won't accept the views of a Black woman from Amsterdam. *You won't accept the views of a Caribbean Black latina
*You won't accept the views of a woman from the Black British community
and to top it all off
*You won't even accept the views of a Black Brazilian woman, and all because we don't share your views on our own Afro diaspora culture? You are arguing with Black people from all around the globe and telling us our views are rubbish because you think you're Blacker than all of us. Do you not see anything wrong with this picture? Despite the fact that no one has condemned Black sensuality and s-xuality in our culture, but have just asked for more varied depictions of our culture which is fully rounded enough to warrant other depictions be explored??? I'm amazed, you've got a talent, nothing surprises me, I don't think much of anyone until they prove me wrong. You're gifted.
Side note: apparently Beyonce performed in a thong and crawled on the stage at the grammys, as well as rapping along to the line Eat the cake Anna Mae, mocking the abuse of the Black woman she's stolen the majority of her stage presence from. How surprising!
on Tue Jan 28th 2014 at 15:51:54 Bulanik
buddhuu. Watch.
and point out where I said that? I said sensual, and that is a fact..i never said less overweight, ever,
2. "They apply their own ideas of what is truly "African" to Brazil. That determines what they see and know, like capoeira, but not, say, black symbolist poets like Cruz e Souza
Cruz de Souza is from my state..I know who he is, but I have never once addressed anything about literature and dont pretend to know..
Ana self asumes she doesnt have an affinity with Afro Bahian culture. Liturature is a differant subject than drum dance .Afro diasporic culture is in Salvador in a huge way…Im picking up incredible materials from there . Ana doesnt understand how much Americans can actualy learn from Salvador..in truth, Im defending people like you, Abagond ,that might go there one day and have tremendous insights for yourself …my wife is walking afro diasporic culture..I can learn more from her about the real Salvador, where she is from, than Ana could ever be able to pass on …Im also not a tourist
Yes, I dont read its great writers..that is valid..i have read biographies of Elza Soares, one of the greatest black women singers anywhere in the world, who i had the pleasure playing with and recording with , something ana could never do
Black culture extends beyond music and dance, it's the social environment of a people, their politics, their history, clothing, food, art, etc. You don't know anything about Black culture, you know about Black music and dance. That's why you though violence in the Black community is about alcohol and had no clue it's about unemployment.
No one has said they want twerkin to become extinct, I've only ever said I want more Black culture to be showcased and not just twerkin.
I strongly disagree with little Black girls twerkin the same way people condemn the way little girls like Jon Bennet Ramsey (sp?) are made up like adult women. And since Black girls are one of the most vulnerable groups, they should not be displayed in a way that is interpreted as s-xual, since the dance in question has been absorbed into strip club culture and is defined as such.
No one has said they want more varied depictions of Black women to prove something to White people, we've said there has always been a history of Black women being depicted this way and only this way, along with the Black mammy and sapphire stereotypes.
Linda took the time to eloquently explain what I was trying to get across to you. Our culture has always had a sense of morality, so this "genius" you speak of regarding the culture of the African diaspora is one that does not capture the variation we want to see. The picture you paint of our culture is just as narrow as the depictions we complain about.
The fact that you're arguing about us simply saying we want more variation because you feel this is our true culture is something that is bound to cause great offence but you're unable to see that.
This variation I have said I want is based on the truth that Black culture is rich with different expressions. This is common sense, it's not religious, it's not feminist, it's not Black militant political rhetoric, there's nothing militant about it, it's common sense based on this truth.
You tell women they're uptight when they express that they feel porn degrades them, even though you're not a woman.
You tell Asian men they're imagining self hatred in the Asian community, even though you're not Asian.
And you dictate to Black people what their culture is and should be.
This is the pattern and it's unacceptable.
"YOU have determined what is truly black. When blacks disagree with you, people who live and breathe black culture BY DEFINITION, you, a white man, corrects them"
That is not true , Abagond, my objective is to not determin what is truly black, its to defend black cultures that are being stepped on dismissed, destroyed abnd buried
you can be black and absolutly not live black culture…im not living white culture…i dont mean hot dogs and hamburgers, i can honestly say, i dont listen to Bhetoven, Mozart, DebussyRavel, …my culture is not hot dogs and hamburgers and white rock and roll..if im going to think what my culture is , that expresses it self at the highest leval, those are the people that represent
being black and living everyday as black, is being exposed to the white racism, whether you want to live black culture or not…i dont know what its like to be black and face that discrimination…being black doesnt mean you automaticly have black culture…that would be a stereotype..like every black person is dripping with black culture..black people have every right in the world to not practice black culture at its highest leval
most black people here, do live black culture, the culture of the pop world they grew up on. they know those dances, those songs, those slangs, those styles, and if they are lucky someone can cook them some food that is cultural..but, when we try to discuss some higher leval of deep black culture…there is a void. People cant discuss jazz with any depth here..and this is black American history and the deepest American music ever made..and in the political diologue, icons like Armstrong and the great idiom of tap gets crushed, now twerking
just to breeze through the other "determins", I dont determine anything, I am always defending black cultures that are being stepped on…i could absolutly care less what anybody listens to, dances to or doesnt dance to…that concerns me very little…but people just say any old thing, they just put down and knock things and so much much mis information…i have corrected so mucyh misinformation on here, and that doesnt matter one little bit
again, I am not black and know that being black is living a life that is frought with discrimination and racism…understanking jazz or samba or gua gua co..doesnt come automaticly with being black..you dont get born in the world playing up tempo be bop …if you humbly start understanding the great black American innovators who did bring us this incredible gift, and they are black American and lived black American history and the discrimination and rejection of their work, if you can start to apreciete their work, put in unbelevable hours and months and years, you start to really get what they were about , and culture is open to everyone
I know you dont care, but i live and breathe Afro diaspric culture everyday, i start out my one hour practice with 20 minutes of candomble rhythms, that is as about as Afrodiasporic as it gets, i then get to up bop on the records and clave and of course samba , coco, medium swing, funk, sometimes about 2 times a week i get together with a Brazilian percusionist and go over a bunch of rhythms..we rehearse our show with various afro diasporic dances
where it doesnt mean anything to you, that is one deep dish immersion on a daily basis…and, its my prayer also…i have no idea what everyone else here gets out of the afro diasporic culture immersion on a daily basis you say they are living and breathing, but , for me,its nothing short of what a practicionor of bhudism reaches…its is the ultimate reward the ancient africans gave us, to understand that these drum dance concepts are for turning off your thinking brain and totaly tuning you into intuition and your inner spirit..everyone here knows exactly what "i got the feeling", "soul, means, that is everyones slice of getting what that gift is..for me, its all encompassing..it is extremly purposful on my part to enter that deep intuitive state and let it be the guide of my life
Monroe, you are so off of what you depict me saying..like im saying there shouldnt be wide depictions of black women, I just brought in a bunch of names, you only state oneE Spalding…I have been extremly focused and consistint in my total support of all Afro diasporic cultures, including ones that were dismissed and buried….
trying to paint me like im forcing anyone on here to accept twerking or any bare booty dance, is ridiculous, i could care less, but back way off condeming people who do practice these idioms, that is what is disgusting here…this dumping on, this judgemental ready to hatchet and muck rake over artists and styles and dancers who dance a certain way..by people who arent even profesional performers, not even amateur musicians or dancers..
it amounts to peanut gallery whining, with no depth…if you dont know a style or history of a style, being black cant help you at all. you know or you dont…you dont know samba, period . you have no idea of the history , the tradition , the richness..your judgement or anyone on here who never really had contact with real samba dancers and real bateria from where they came from, would just be talking cheap trash…
i dont talk about black literature becaues that is not my forte, you are suposed to talk about that, Abagond is suposed to talk about that…i talk about what i know…really well
you talk innocent about interracial sex, but, when I just happen to throw in about all the beautiful naked booty i get to see in public and there is nothing wrong and i disagree with you alls take on it, you immedietly go into my sex life with black women and make it perverse…you say your mom doesnt want to date white men, what has that got to do with anything except reveal your real mind set…for sure i would never bed down with a militent black feminist, so . the feeling is totaly mutual
in truth, this "dump" on Beyonce , is not just this thread, its been on here before..nothing to do with twerking, just a general atitude on this blog that its ok to dump on Beyonce, gosh forbid if I happen to like Beyonce, her singing and here dance ethic. Even though it doesnt mean anything on here, Ive been in the presence of some very high leval black female singers, Minnie Rippeton, Irene Cara, Carmen Lundy, Elza Soares and more you never heard of..and Beyonce can sing…everyone bring up Laura Hill, and she is drop dead gorgeous but she doesnt out sing Beyonce, and Beyonce has a wonderful dance ethic…im not some drop dead fan, but , she has shown me enough great talent that i dont go questioning her artistic choices
if i didnt say anything, that is what you ould like…then i wouldnt have to listen to your disgusting insults and pseudo pop political agendised hide behind
ok, comment in moderation…while waiting , let me say, hey , budhuu, you got constapation?
monroe i got a comment in moderation addressed to you…no curse words, your tirades are coming from a low leval, things from underneath dont phase me
Linda, who i got a lot of respect for was insisting there is no booty dancing in Africa like twerking, turns out its actualy considered a traditional dance…that was misinformation on her part, yet, if i bring in the truth,its like im telling black people what to think or what black culture is…that is bs
no i dont care what women do about sex, i dont tell them they have to like it or anything, i say back far off the women who do like porn, who perform it for money…dont bring your tired morals as though they are mandates to all women…they arnt
i dont tell people to do anything, im defending a bumch of cheap shots
and i never said anyting about Asian innner conflict not existing
i said its ridiculous to stereotype all Asian American women with white men as having some inner sefl esteem , self hating conflicts and that is why they are with white men…its absolutly disgusting to asume all Asian American women with white men think that way…
people really have misrepresented what I am saying…that right there shows weakness of position..and desperation and inability to face the actual points im making…up and down, all you critics have misrepresented what im saying
get it right , porra!
yes, constantly, i know it means nothing to you..i said that…and you are a provincial country bumkin sitting on a log, would you like a light for your corn cob pipe?
NO one here has said a thing about Samba
No one here has condemned twerking. All anyone here has done is condemned you getting your back up about Black people discussing their desire to see more varied depictions of Black women. I've been extremely patient and have explained this in every way I could possibly think of. I'm now giving up. Your not in our community anyway, so the fact that you don't understand doesn't matter. I give up.
My mum's not Black, nor is she a feminist, no one is talking about bedding down. Every time interracial relationships are brought up here, you've just discussed booty and bedding down, even a White woman asked why you only say interracial s-x, people notice these things; you talk about Black women like pieces of meat. But that's neither here nor there at this point. The point was on your White sense of entitlement, which although it's disguised as love for a culture, is just another example of White supremacy over Black people, even with our culture. This has had nothing to do with politics, s-xual repression, or feminism, it was about the historic depictions of Black women that have not changed. Since it's about Black oppression and has very little to do with culture, there's not much you can say as you're clearly unaware of it. The history of narratives of Blacks may be pop culture to you, but our oppression is very real and we're aware of it, we don't have a choice.
Whether or not you think Beyonce is a better artist than Lauryn Hill is really none of my concern. You would not understand why Lauryn Hill means so much more to the Black community than Beyonce does.
Lastly, there's no point in telling any minority that you aren't a part of to back off of expressing what they feel about their own minority group: not women, not Asians, and not Blacks.
But you will continue to because this is the way White entitlement works. I give up, you don't affect me anyway, you're just some old White guy in Brazil.
on Tue Jan 28th 2014 at 20:45:14 Linda
"BR@ Linda, who i got a lot of respect for was insisting there is no booty dancing in Africa like twerking, turns out its actualy considered a traditional dance…that was misinformation on her part"
no, BR, it wasn't misinformation on my part… all you did was bring in a video showing a "modern day" version of the Mapouka dance– a modern day version that borrowed an old "traditional dance" and blended it with new modern moves and styles.
That's what happened to Mapouka (from Ivory Coast) — the same thing happened to old style "whining".. new moves were added on to it and it became known as "twerking"
Africans don't live in a bubble, BR, they are not immune to the trends around the world!
The country's current Mapouka craze amounts to a revival of an ancient form – As it's grown beyond its village origins different forms of the dance have emerged
"Christian de Mederos of Nigui Saf K-dance says "Mapouka is a modern dance with a traditional inspiration.
Part of the issue is that Mapouka was an ancient dance from the villages that has been modernized and brought to town. (the same way dancehall/whining was turned into "twerking")
As it's become more urban it's become more popular. And as it's become more popular so, many say, it has become more vulgar. –
In public, few people are ready to defend the Mapouka danced in nightclubs around the city: (you brought in a video of nightclub dancing)
"The traditional Mapouka is much better, particularly when you compare it to what is danced in nightclubs. Personally, I'm not at all interested in what you find there and when you see young people dancing like that in nightclubs – frankly, I'm disgusted." – (I guess the majority of black people in Ivory Coast are uptight moralists infected by the white man too, huh)
Whatever you say about the other form of Mapouka I must say that I am completely against it.The traditional Mapouka is the real and only Mapouka.
The other Mapouka, I would go as far as to say that it is pornography danced in the rhythm of Mapouka and loosely based on the traditional Mapouka." Those are strong words over a dance.But in a country where people care about culture perhaps that should be no surprise."
See more at: http://www.itnsource.com/jp/shotlist//RTV/1999/11/14/911140027/#sthash.48cENeN5.dpuf
I guess I am not the only person that hates to see a "traditional" dance morphed and distorted into the vulgar when a new dance is created.
Bows before the feet of queen Linda and kisses all ten of her toes.
There's an angel in our midst. Plays
(Debussy Claire de lune and dances in circles.)
on Tue Jan 28th 2014 at 21:28:25 Kiwi
*after watching Ebonymonroe chew out B. R.*
If this "discussion" were being carried out in real life, we'd see a white man getting totally pummeled by black women. You show him!
on Wed Jan 29th 2014 at 01:15:29 buddhuu
I'm touched by your concern over my digestive regularity but I'm good, thanks for asking.
BTW, dude, still pwned.
on Wed Jan 29th 2014 at 13:33:57 B. R.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wZ0kdRcf7w)
Linda, what kind of game are you playing here? I could bring in youtubes from various countries of africa, with similar moves…you made it seem like it doesnt exist
here is Brazil…Im linking up various countries all over the world with Afro diasporic cultures, who have moves similar to twerking…you see one comment and that is the majority? and your point was like it doesnt exist in Africa
you raise the alarmist call of its from strip clubs, ignoring strip club history that didnt have those moves or music in it before..it was introduced because of outside Afro diasporic influences
you push , along with monroe, this notion of booty cheeks slapping together…when its a deep plie with pelvic thrusts working the taylor muscles, i learned that taking dance class myself
just as i said, this is an afro diasporic dance move , you can find similar moves all over Africa, and Brazil , no matter how you want to feel about it, it is something that stretches over continents
Hey , Budhuu, what is it with you , Monroe, and Constantly , across the Atlantic? You think because some people hurl some insults , and misinformation, and there are high fives , that i am p,ned, stepping on and tippy tapping out? you all are pretty weak if you think that is what is happening here
you all are flustered, not me, that is why i get insults and misinformation, while im bringing in facts and reality…linda, you have truly brought in misinformation if you think that one youtube is the only one i can find in Africa
look here at brazil…you want more African clips? and you just atribute it to modern influences..yeah right, they came up with it in various African countries only because of twerking…or Brazilian quadrinhos…you are misinformed
do you think this Brazil dance consulted twerking, or Africa…it came from Brazil…Monroe, suk on that
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2X5oKFwaEI)
Ghana…out side
if im suposed to have had a beat down, why am i still standing? and all anyone else except linda can do , is insult me?
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uwvv2peJqVc)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6OHt0-b1H4)
Tanzania..they say its traditional
on Wed Jan 29th 2014 at 14:41:12 Linda
"BR @you all are flustered, not me, that is why i get insults and misinformation, while im bringing in facts and reality…linda, you have truly brought in misinformation if you think that one youtube is the only one i can find in Africa
BR to Abagond@ again, I am not black and know that being black is living a life that is frought with discrimination and racism…understanking jazz or samba or gua gua co..doesnt come automaticly with being black
I know you dont care, but i live and breathe Afro diaspric culture everyday, i start out my one hour practice with 20 minutes of candomble rhythms, that is as about as Afrodiasporic as it gets"
BR, so many things that are just so "wrong" with your above statements.
but firstly, you can bring in as Many youtubes as you can find, the reality is those vulgar moves you admire are moves that a "new" generation has blended with an old traditions… twerking is still a heaux dance.
(and I'm sure you know that ballet dancers used to be considered heauxs back in the day, so that is the wrong example to bring — comparing one "old time heaux dance" to a current, modern day heaux dance) …. you know I'm laughing while I write this because I'm certainly not the one that is pressed about it, old man 🙂 I'm just bringing in the reality
but anyway, you keep "linking up" with the Afro-Diaspora in Brazil, while I and every black/brown person who lives outside of the continent of Africa will to continue to BE the AFRO-DIASPORA — because that is what the Afro-Diaspora is, BR
It's the PEOPLE who are of AFRICAN DESCENDANTS…we are "born", not learned, practiced, or educated into the Afro-Diaspora, our very existence as African descendants is what defines the Afro-Diaspora and our various cultures.
it's not "music" or some kind of monolithic "black" culture that creates the Afro Diaspora, BR– the Afro Diaspora is composed of various "traditions and cultures" because our African slave ancestors where dropped off in different countries.
the Afro-Diaspora is the people who live, breath, and EXIST as African descendants outside of Africa — North, Central, South America, Caribbean, Europe, and Asia
we are the only one's whose voices count when it comes to forming and continuing our various cultures and traditions — we form what is called "the Afro-Diaspora" – because we EXIST in the various countries where our African ancestors formed their "new" traditions —
blended traditions because our African ancestors had no Choice if they wanted to survive in their new homes — we, the living embodiment of the Afro Diaspora, continue to represent and decide what is wrong or right with our various Afro-Diasporic cultures
you keep "admiring" Afro-diasporic culture in Brazil and black American jazz and tap … keep being the "soldier" and fight the good fight
while we black/brown people of African ancestry, the living embodiment of the Afro-Diaspora, continue to carry the African genes and African blood.
that is the common denominator that black/brown people share that you cannot "link up with" as a soldier of the cause or bring in a video about –so you keep "studying"
Several commenters have at length and articulately tried to tell you what is wrong with what you are saying. They have been extremely patient with you. Some have called you names, but you are no saint yourself on that score, particularly if you count the comments of yours I had to delete.
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/10/01/86646.html
first of all, Linda, check the Tanzania youtube, that is not contemporary at all, that beat is not anything to do with the beats of pop music today…I know you cant hear that and make the connection
second of all, no, these voices on here dont speak for black and brown women, and you too, you speak for yourselves…you dont speak for the incredible black and brown women that I have the most deepest honor to work with , the most profound respect…and I am deeply involved in trying to book them and find a space in this world,and, its the white racists and their uptight religious , prejudice , and their inability to see the art in this work, that is our biggest barriour first, and them the chumpy , low level diologue on here that is next…where credibility means nothing, where history of the cultures and their obstacles and struggles means nothing on here, where ignorance abounds
my wife is more Afro diasporic than you, Linda, and I guarentee you, your mentality would just flush her culture down the toilet with out thinking, and that is why you have to deal with me right here right now
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/flashpoints/music/jazz.html
http://books.google.com.br/books?id=XAzP__xv7CkC&pg=PA239&lpg=PA239&dq=jazz+dancing+banned&source=bl&ots=1IXhKbkOXF&sig=p1TcPbV5KNkgnHvZOCMqaYVfG4I&hl=pt-BR&sa=X&ei=6l2nUc_fOpS80QG-lYHwDw&ved=0CD4Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=jazz%20dancing%20banned&f=false
http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/jazz.html
"The end of the war saw Poland being occupied yet again, this time by the Soviet Red Army. Poland, now called People's Republic of Poland, became a Soviet-controlled puppet state. Music fell under Soviet control too and jazz, with its syncopated rhythms and free style, did not fall into the prescribed mould. In Stalinist Poland, jazz was banned and went on to develop its own style underground"
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/10/02/poland.history.jazz/index.html?eref=edition_travel
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/11696457
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/rockandjazzmusic/3656544/How-jazz-survived-the-Soviets.html
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=FB0D1EF6395810738DDDAB0A94DA405B818EF1D3
http://www.alerj.rj.gov.br/common/noticia_corpo.asp?num=6751
"She told me about how samba was banned from being sung at school, and how they were only allowed to sing civic Brazilian music. She also told me about the first song she ever composed, at age 7, about a doll of a bird she had as a young girl."
http://www.afropop.org/wp/3862/rio-journal-dona-ivone-lara-samba-legend/
The Christian Portuguese considered the African dances sinful and made several attempts to suppress them. Emperor Manuel I banned the Batuque, a precursor to the samba, in the early 1800s, but both whites and blacks continued to dance to the musical rhythms.
http://www.ehow.com/about_5376335_history-samba-dance.html
on Wed Jan 29th 2014 at 21:43:31 Ebonymonroe
Oh my days, he continues to say things like "I'm more," or "my kid is," or "my wife is (basically) Blacker than you;" he's made remarks like "you don't know your own culture," but complains about being insulted. I actually used my last few posts to try and patiently clarify what I meant about "balance in our images," which is completely reasonable. I've never even taken the position that I want twerkin to be done away with, I've only ever said the images of Black women in the media are unbalanced and that this is something that has always been this way, and that many famous Black women fall in line to cross-over, but you skip what people are saying just to insult them and then you complain about being insulted.
Linda has explained what I was trying to say: twerkin is not a part of African history, it's a modern hypers-xual dance from raunch culture. So campaigning for it under the pretense that it's cultural preservation is a lie. Linda brought in sources talking about how an African dance evolved into twerkin, in recent times. You have spent this entire time arguing, with your points founded on historical cultural preservation vs. the modernisation of African culture, but Linda has proved (in a creditable manner), that that's exactly what twerkin is.
You keep saying we don't speak for Black women, but you don't either, the only difference between us and you is that we never claimed to speak for all Black women, but you have.
You keep bringing in modern videos of variations on twerkin, but you have not disproved the facts Linda has brought in about how the Mapouka, in our times of raunch culture combined with the exploitation of Black culture, has morphed into twerkin. You can't provide proof that twerkin is an ancient African dance, but this is what you've been alluding to.
Your whole entire argument has collapsed because it was founded on twerkin being a part of African culture in a historical context, but Linda has shown that's not true, and now, instead of accepting that you're wrong, you've reverted to going on about modern day Brazil again, to validate your argument that has already been undone. You're now starting to make yourself look silly. What's so sad is that either your pride won't allow you to admit you've lost, or you don't even realise it.
Aw, Jaysus. Give a guy Google to play with and…
Did I really just read:
[…]my wife is more Afro diasporic than you, Linda[…]
"BR@ my wife is more Afro diasporic than you, Linda, and I guarentee you"
LOLLLLL, OK BR…. Oh please …the only way your wife could be even remotely more "Afro diasporic" than me, would be that she, herself, came DIRECTLY from Africa as an immigrant to Brazil…
other than that, she and I both carry the African genes, are African descendants, so we are both equally "children" of the Afro Diaspora…no better, no worse … the fact that we exist gives us that membership — not Samba, dancing, music, drums, jazz, etc
Brazil does not "represent " Africa, my friend…
my Jamaican/Caribbean "Afro-Diasporic" culture is just as Rich and deeply-steeped with retained African traditions, just like your wife's Brazilian culture…
2 Afro-Diasporic communities with slightly different histories but similar cultures…. do you think this is the some kind of "let's see whose 'blacker than black' contest"… because from what I see — you are lost!
BR, you are like a deaf man with 20/20 eyesight who can't see past the loud noise…
peace out, BR, I'm sure you have better things to do than fuss with me on a topic that you can only ever be a "student and a visitor"… the Afro-Diaspora EXISTS because black/brown African descendants continue to draw breath.
and ps… why do keep showing me modern day African women "twerking" and calling it "old & traditional"…the only thing "old" are the skirts they're dancing in– and also, at the very least, you could have found African videos that were not blasting JAMAICAN reggae and dancehall and Soca music 🙂
"my wife is more Afro diasporic than you, Linda"
This is what I mean about you setting yourself up as judge of what is truly black and then using that to invalidate what black commenters say. Linda, from what I understand, is every bit as Afro-diasporic as your wife. So are most other commenters on this thread.
on Wed Jan 29th 2014 at 23:19:36 Sharina
on Wed Jan 29th 2014 at 23:36:13 Omnipresent
What! You are judging PoC on their 'authenticity' now B.R. You are obviously trying to make a point but take a look at what you have written, surely you really don't mean to come across like this.
From what I have seen on this thread alone you seem to believe that unless someone is from Brazil, they cant really be black. Is that what you truly think? Also, do you feel you know more about what it is to be black because of your experiences?
on Wed Jan 29th 2014 at 23:49:01 Pay It Forward
Not to speak for Linda, but, according to her own commentary, she is NOT black, but rather a brown woman of mixed heritage / descent.
*You keep saying we don't speak for all Black women, but the difference between us and you is that we've never claimed to speak for any Black women, we're just Black women and a Black man, speaking. But you claim to speak for Black women.
(Dropped the "all" before you come in here attacking this point by saying you never said "all," just "some" or "the ones you personally know who like to twerk in thongs on the beach, and call it Ancient Afro diasporic culture," or whatever.)
on Thu Jan 30th 2014 at 02:05:43 Linda
"Pay It Forward,
Pay it Forward, that's the beauty of being mixed race/ Afro descended… we can straddle both sides of the fence 🙂
I am a black/brown woman of mixed heritage, that's true, and because part of that heritage is African descended… I am part of the "Afro Diaspora"… born and raised in it –my black Jamaican grandmother(s) insured my membership
the American and Caribbean Afro-Diaspora is made of up of just that– both black and brown/mixed-race African descended people – just like the Afro Diaspora in Brazil … as I've always said, I'm not one of those people that ever tried to run from my "African" heritage because I recognized early in life, that
trust, depending on the country, white people don't recognize the difference, they are not counting "quantity" — if you don't "look" white, then prejudice or white supremacy affects all of us regardless of hair texture or skin colour.
on Thu Jan 30th 2014 at 03:19:44 B. R.
"Sensibility and tradition behind ballroom dance was so blatantly Western that it can't be denied. The Communist Party of China denounced it as "Western decadence" and banned it regularly. Ditto for Stalin and other Marxist regimes"
http://www.wnd.com/2014/01/can-the-mambo-save-america/
http://wild941.cbslocal.com/2013/10/29/10-hip-hop-songs-that-have-been-banned-gallery-r-b-state-idaho-robin-thicke-ciara-beyonce-eminem-tyrese-lil-wayne-rick-ross-nicki-minaj-justin-timberlake-pictures/
"Kirk: Yes, because what was once shunned, or even illegal, is now mainstream. Originally, [Filhos de] Gandhi members were afraid to parade those first years because of police repression, but today they are celebrated for their message. Before Ilê, no one presented African-oriented themes in the street, now it is commonplace. Their Beleza Negra [Black Beauty] festival celebrates "
on Filhos de Gandhi Afoxe being repressed
http://thebraziliansound.blogspot.com.br/2009_03_01_archive.html
"Our parents from this generation transmitted something very important to us, despite their fear of being and acting black in a repressive society. They transmitted dignity, and they transmitted our history. They told us how the police used to invade black neighborhoods and order everyone into the streets dressed in their underwear to find out who was whom. They also told us how the authorities invaded the terreiros of Candomblé and took sacred instruments to the police station where they would be placed alongside guns that had been used to commit crimes. Our parents' generation, afraid to be black, miraculously passed along the oral tradition of our African heritage. They passed on respect for elders, the strength of culture, and the knowledge that wisdom could be in spoken as well as written form"
http://joaojorgeolodum.blogspot.com.br/2011/09/olodum-1996-black-brazil.html
on Thu Jan 30th 2014 at 05:12:59 Ebonymonroe
If that link provides a list containing a song like Robin Thicke's "Blurred lines," I really would have no idea how a song with a line like "give you somethin' that'll tear your a55 in two" being banned is repressing Blackness.
And he has not been able to dispute that he was wrong about Twerkin being some ancient African, that would be the Mapouka. Turns out twerkin is the very thing he's been rallying against, it's the Westernization of a traditional African dance that has been swallowed up by Western raunch culture and the commercialised Western Black youth culture that has embraced the sensational exploitative frames White audiences have long demanded of the Blackness they're willing to accept. Frankz Fanon said regarding Native son, the act of Blackness (which he also explored in his book of that title), the act of Blackness waits with expectancy until eventually, he relents resisting and allows destiny to manifest. Black music culture has followed this path in the West by morphing itself into the most sensational, vulgar, cooning aspects to cross-over.
This is the version of Blackness he has been protesting is authentic African-ness.
My, my, my, this was interesting.
*wrong about twerkin being some ancient African dance
*long demanded of "the Blackness they're willing to accept"
That's sweet, but mostly, just a few days off from work.
Hopefully he learned something here, maybe it'll be something that will spur him to study Black history and the exploitation of Blacks in the media to go along with his knowledge of Black music, so that he's better able to understand the context of the images he comes across from our culture and maybe even better able to understand how to separate Black culture and its people from images presented as true Blackness in White supremacist societies. And maybe just maybe, he'll learn to respect the people of the culture and stop generalising everything they say as Black militant 1960's rhetoric, or things like "you don't know your culture, I do," which is essentially like saying, "you don't know Blackness, I do." Maybe he'll learn a respect for its people and not just the music of the people.
Constant, that's OK, I am going to return the favor
since BR was concerned that black Americans would have to travel All the way to Brazil just to learn how to be real "Afro Diasporians"
I just wanted everyone to know.. no worries..you don't have to fly ALLL the way to Brazil just to get "edumacated"…there is more than one "rich and deep" Afro Diasporic culture where you can pick up some of that "African-ness" that you're supposedly missing and the airfare is much cheaper 🙂
Here are some videos showcasing my neck of the woods — the Caribbean
First up: dancing/whining in Honduras
this is the type of "whining" that all Caribbean girls/women learn to do — shaking our hips/butts (with no bending over, clapping butt cheeks, or humping the ground) aka "whining" done with class and style.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipMIvKcWIuo)
video of Jamaican drumming: Nyabinghi, Kumina, and other Jamaican drumming styles. kind of long video, watch until you get bored but great beats
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEobRFSWyoM)
video of the traditional Kumina dance, the Bailo — this video only shows a part of the dance… it's more intricate because Kumina tells a "story"
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPjUGBLmv5g)
The Kumina is indigenous to Jamaica. It was a form of religion/ceremony retained by the Jamaican Maroons and passed on. It retained the drumming and dancing of the Akan people and different Congo languages…. in a nut shell, Kumina is about the ancestral spirits coming to Earth to give wisdom and guidance to their descendants.
Linda, Im going to watch your youtubes with pleasure, and , Id like to address you and Abagond, but , make it clear , this isnt anger or one upsmanship, i just want to be frank , im not in anyway saing its an insult that my wife is more Afro descendant (I meant that word, not "diasporic"), both her parents are Afro descendent, in your case, you have a grandmother, my son would have a mother who is Afro desendent…this point , i made in responce to your trying to make it look like its just fine to tinker with these idioms, but, ill never know what its like to really be Latin american and black brown, Im just a "white man"…you too , Abagond, on the obama pictures, a subject not even about race, and, i bring in actual pertinent in depth information , and, my thoughts are summed up by you, Abagond, as those of just "a white man"…and that is a cop out, and i want you to know, i could care less what the other posters think, i wont accept it one bit..you both made it when your arguments looked weak to the information i brought in…and Linda, in spite of the peanut gallery high fives, i totaly proved your points wrong, i absolutly took you on a tour of various countries in Africa, and over to Brazil , to demonstrate uncontestinal truth that these moves are connected by an Afro diasporic concept dance hook up..
let me tell you, linda, this is not your forte, listen to the Tanzania youtube again, that is nothing at all like any pop beat out threre, it is a traditional ancient black african beat..you cant hear it….how can you judge it when you cant hear it, And that youtube was as deep as any of them, makes twerking look like patty cake
where you can identify moves and origins of them in strip clubs, you have no perspective of strip clubs, and their history and the kind of dances and music they have had in its history.These moves and music that came into strip clubs came from an outside source, the strip clubs didnt make them any more than the strip clubs had anything to do with the 4 Brazilian girls i brought in doing "Quadrinhos"
And , so, Linda, my point to you about my Afro descendant wife is. she is classified as black, with a natural Afro, that she has her colorisation issues with…and, in truth, i will share with you, out my respect for you, inspite of the visciousness of some commenters on here, my wife has experianced the kind of racism and discrimination and humiliation that posters here only read off of political agenda pages
after having her face beaten to a pulp by her mother at age 12, in a family situation that would almost be a cliche of north east Brazil, huge families, with 4 or so children lost in childbirth, to flee a horrible home situation, she worked literaly as a slave , for board and pennies to wash drawers for white people , and later was next to a domestic who was a great cook, where my wife picked up incredible cooking skills , and she makes the most incredible Afro Brazilian dishes anywhere
in that 7 years as a domestic and maid, along with humiliations few people on here ever experianced, two sons of differant people she worked for attemted to rape her…she later was raped by a black gang that ripped her watch off that has left a scar on her wrist until today
this kind of experiance can only leave deep trauma , that for 28 years, i have been by her side, through thick and thin, working through this unbeleivable psychological barriars to overcome…that is all i intend to share here, but, dealing with the traumas based on racism of my wifes past and being guarded and vigilant to the racism they have to deal with in society, in no way makes me on the outside of understanding and being in the middle of their struggle with them…that in know way diminishes who you are, morena bonita, but, please dont diminish the realities i live with everyday…directly related to racism and my real family now…
and, linda, i commited to brazil for 28 years now, more than you lived in jamaica or honduros, correct me if im wrong…I am deep inside the dynamic of South America…through Brazil..
So, i feel this just boxing me into a straw man "white man', you to Abagond, is a cop out
and , abagond, your painting me as some attacker on here is extremly wrong, Im defending harsh judgements of cultures and the black artists that perform these cultures…and there has been tremendous misinformation passed here, and i just bring in the truth…and by the way, dont you ever let ana tell you what you could get out or not get out of Salvador as a black american
on Thu Jan 30th 2014 at 09:20:46 buddhuu
And my dad's bigger than your dad.
The Wanaragua (Jankunú) performed during by the Garifuna of Belize, Honduras, and Guatemala,
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQW47pxNjg4)
Jankunú is a Caribbean celebration that happens after "Boxing Day": it's called Jonkonnu in Jamaica (Masquerade in St. Kitts-Nevis, Gombey in Bermuda, Goombay in Bahamas, I believe the Gullahs of South Carolinas called it "John Kuner")
Gombey in Bermuda
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3QnVRDMEYc)
go read some chomsky, legion…
Its funny,Monroe is tossing her ideas of why men beat their women as unemployment , and puts it into a black context
its funny tis notion by a Brit woman across the atlantic, implying its unemployment as the reason black men beat their wives
i cant speak for any of the black Americans on here, and i would never ever pretend to , but, ill speak for my black American music colleagues and black american male freinds…its demeaning to imply that just because they dont have a job, they might beat their women…this is the kind of logic ive come to expect from monroe, hack logic, not well thought out…not only is it alcohol that brings the violence out of most domestic violence cases, Momroe, doesnt even understand men that well, because, i guarentee you , jealousy will trump unemployment any day of the year for reasons of violence towards women…by the way, women can be violent to men also, and , its mostly under the influence of alcohol…Monroe needs to pull her nose out of activist , psycholgy books and deal with real life
Constantly speaks five languages, I wonder if she knows the meaning of "sophomore (i wonder if i can spell it correctly), if she is so smart, why is she making provincial statements about Brazil? always making these digs…that have nothing to do with the subject…
Abagond, after this huge amount of factual information i have brought in about black dance getting banned and destroyed, you crack on those thing? Are you blind?
Why do you write about white European literature and history, and, make definite determinations about white people and how they think, what is wrong with them and actualy tell white people what you determine about them?
that is what you are not asking me, its what you are telling me
my gosh, did you see the new York Times article in the early century? Im a new Yorker, no one can open my hand to my 8 years struggling there, and reading about those dances being banned almost mirrors the things i hear on here.
Just to see the names of all those dances and trying to capture in my mind, the incredilbe social force going on in america as jazz is evolving into the American conciousness..and then ther banning and discrimination, it sends chills up and down my spine
i dont really listen to Armstrong on the box, but I dont know all ther dances, but reading about it makes me aching to see what those dances looked like…that were banned
'those who dont know their own history are doomed to repeat it"
Budhuu, you are a phony, Pete Seeger? rip Yusef Latiff…you chump
you come in here like you are all aware of music, can you hum a wayne shorter song?
Im not going to crack on Seeger, he sat in with the Free street Theater in Chicago i was in, but , white folk music is about as horrible as music gets…Dylan gets to idolised and praised like a god, do you have any idea the depth john coltrane and miles Davis were into at that time, and Smokey Robinson was my poet
do you have any idea what its like to be inside of an up tempo bop with Walter Bishop jr, who played with charlie parker, or Dr lonnie smith? or you just a mid tempo blues chump
the white music thread is like a strip of bile, you bring in Seeger, you arre a phony
and i bring these great jazz musicians in I played with because you see all the links i brought in of the kind of dusgusting banning and discrimination that this highest levalof music America produced innovated by black americans, and cant get the dynamic going on here? go p wn yorself
Seeger wasn't primarily about music: he was about people – all people. My respect for Seeger isn't about music: it is about his love for people – all people.
As for your competitive musical snobbery, well, it doesn't interest me. It's just another side of your crass my-wife-is-blacker-than-you (paraphrase), gotta-be-better-than-the-other-guy attitude.
An aside: I think the way you use your wife as a goad with which to score points in an argument is a little tasteless and disrespectful, but then that's between the two of you.
I like the music I like. Some of the jazz people you name I have never heard of, but then some of the Irish and Scottish traditional musicians I would praise might be equally obscure to you. My knowledge of jazz only goes as far as what I like: Louis Armstrong, Coltrane, Davis, Grappelli and Rheinhardt, Hancock, Parker, Pine, Gillespie, Mingus, Brubeck etc. Mostly old guys, not much in the way of contemporary stuff. It's not a primary genre of mine and I don't know the landscape.
I think you attempt to use your specialist music knowledge as a smokescreen. Your underlying attitude seems to be patronising, arrogant and disrespectful. You preach to black people as if you know better than they do.
So, you either live in Brazil or spend a lot of time there (apologies – I sometimes find your posts hard to follow, so some details are uncertain to me), your wife is a black lady, your specialist musical genre is of African origin and thus many of the musicians you know are of African descent.
Well, that's great but, like me, you're a white guy. You can step away any time. You're a privileged observer.
You seem to like the company of black people. You don't seem to be innately racist, but you do come across as deluded and arrogant. You are so sure that your limited experience makes you an oracle that you disregard the opinions of real actual black people. Arrogance of that magnitude can begin to seem like racism.
None of this would be my business beyond the fact that each white person's conduct influences how we are all perceived. It is hard enough to get taken seriously here and trusted to participate in real conversation.
When the majority of POC (whose interests you purport to support) and anti-racist white people all tell you that your attitude is misguided, perhaps it's time to pause for a think.
But whatever.
BTW, B.R., the spelling of my nickname could be considered important. The doubled "d" affects the pronunciation and meaning – even in the transliterated version I use here.
But then, it's only a Hindi/Urdu word. We white people don't think other people's languages are important, do we?
BR,@ my wife has experianced the kind of racism and discrimination and humiliation that posters here only read off of political agenda pages
and, linda, i commited to brazil for 28 years now, more than you lived in jamaica or honduros, correct me if im wrong"
BR, you're wife has had a hard life and I am sorry to hear that… it's tough coming from a poor country or poor environment… your wife's experience unfortunately are all too common in poor countries in the Caribbean or Central America… and it's a blessing that she's had you by her side.
Don't be too hasty to judge everyone here… you don't know anyone else's life story… it's always import to remember that your words can actually impact someone's life — for positive or negative — so don't prematurely judge.
Anyway, I won't tell you my age but trust, you aren't old enough to be my father 🙂 I'm not a young spring chicken… lots of life experience behind me… and I've always maintained a home in Jamaica.
and by the way, I said "Grandmothers" – my mother's mom is a black Maroon and my fathers mother was black/mixed race (she was born in Jamaica but her mother's people were from Cuba, father Jamaica/Panama) and she was such a colour-struck snob.
you know what one of the worst things for a child is–something that will hurt their budding "sense of self":
living with a relative (my aunt) who doesn't like you because you are lighter skinned and your hair is "looser and taller" than her dark skinned "natty-headed" children (or visa versa, the child is darker than the family)… everything I did was "wrong" and her children could do "no wrong" even if she caught them red-handed… jealousy can be a b'tch!
but I wasn't going to let anyone try to put me down because of "who I was"
It was my Maroon grandmother who taught me self confidence, self love, my history, culture, and traditions, respect for the "bush" and the land, and gave me pride in my African ancestry.
I am telling you this so you can understand something: the Afro Diaspora exists because it's the people that form the Afro Diaspora … we, as descendants of African slaves — we've all been left with this legacy of colourism, poverty, racism, discrimination and white supremacy that many of us, unfortunately, have shared wayyy too many experiences with and we've also been left with fantastic cultures and traditions that we can be proud of….
anyway, BR, you're still wrong 🙂 that Tanzanian video showed an old traditional dance being blended with modern day Heaux "twerking" — peace
@Constantly:
LOL, no prob. I only mentioned it earlier to illustrate that there are always things we miss or mistakes to be made. None of us is infallible, no matter how highly we think of ourselves.
That's kind of why I use a nick that means "fool". I need the reminder as much as anyone.
Ebonymonroe said
BR said
Black women at greater risk of becoming victims of homicidal domestic violence
Domestic violence is a crime that cuts a painful swath across all races, socioeconomic levels and cultures.
But experts in the field say that one set of victims — black women — is at a far greater risk to experience the grimmest of all domestic violence statistics: They are about three times more likely to die at the hands of a partner or ex-partner than members of other racial groups. Intimate-partner homicide is also among the leading causes of death for black women ages 15 to 35.
And, the experts add, their plight may not change anytime soon because of complex underlying causes that in some cases stretch back generations: unemployment, poverty, lack of education, incarceration and violent environments.
"A lot of groups have economic issues, but a lot of groups have not had the economic issues we've had for as long as we've had, for the reasons that we've had," said Dr. Gail Wyatt, a professor of psychiatry and bio-behavioral sciences at UCLA for 35 years.
"This is not just an African-American problem, but we are disproportionately affected by it."
Domestic violence killings have become a high-profile issue in North Texas. In August 2012, authorities say, 32-year-old Deanna Cook's ex-husband killed her in her home as she called 911 for help. Records show he had a history of abuse.
Last month, police say, Erbie Bowser shot and killed four people, including his ex-girlfriend and estranged wife, and wounded four others in a horrific domestic violence spree. Bowser also had a history of domestic abuse.
In 2012, Dallas police recorded 12 intimate partner murders, and six of the victims were black women. Overall, the department recorded 13,324 family violence offenses — 7,366 involving African-Americans.
Earlier this year, upset by a string of domestic violence attacks in the area, Dallas Mayor Mike Rawlings organized a men's rally against domestic violence aimed at making men more accountable for their actions against women. The event had a heavy turnout of black men.
In an interview last month, Rawlings said it would be naïve of him as a mayor to opine on the reasons why black women are at such risk of being killed by their partners. He said such analysis is better left to anthropologists and social scientists. But he did say those experts should look at the role of poverty and race in studying domestic violence issues.
Several experts agreed. Dr. Jacquelyn Campbell, nursing professor at Johns Hopkins University and a leader in the field, has spent more than three decades focusing on black homicidal domestic abuse. She started at a time when she said it was the No. 1 cause of death for black women.
In 1986, she developed the danger assessment tool to help determine the likelihood that an abused woman would be killed by her intimate partner. The tool is still in use.
Joblessness factor
Campbell said that while prior domestic violence is the top risk factor in determining future attacks, unemployment is "by far the most important demographic" in putting someone at risk to be killed by an intimate partner.
The latest national unemployment rate for blacks is 13 percent, more than double the 6.4 percent for whites. For black men, that figure is 13.5 percent, compared with 6.2 percent for white males .
"Unemployed white men were as likely to kill their partners as unemployed black men, but because the black unemployment rate is higher, we see more deaths of black women," Campbell said. "In this society … having a job is meaningful in terms of one's sense of masculinity. If they don't have that prestige, if they can't control anything else, at least I'm going to control my woman."
Paige Flink, executive director of the Family Place in Dallas, said that the Dallas statistics on murder and domestic violence track with her records. She noted that blacks account for about half of all domestic violence calls to her abuse shelter.
"And we know that African-Americans aren't anywhere near 50 percent of the population," she said.
Flink agreed that unemployment is an overwhelming factor in domestic abuse and noted that black unemployment rates historically are the highest of any race. A lethality assessment by Dallas police for the past year showed that "40 to 50 percent of these batterers are unemployed," she said.
Changing the thoughts and actions of men is a major focus of those attempting to reduce homicidal violence against black women.
"This won't change unless men are engaged," said Dr. Tricia Bent-Goodley, a professor of social work at Howard University, another top researcher. "Men must be included because they have been the missing link. Without them, we are going to have [more] women and children losing their lives."
Dr. Gail Garfield is an associate professor in the sociology department at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice at City University of New York who also has done extensive study in the field. She said socioeconomic factors ranging from chronic employment to high rates of incarceration, combined with others, lead to a feeling of disrespect that can lead to homicidal violence.
"Poor black men … have simply lost a lot of hope. They have nothing to lose, except for one thing, and that one thing is respect," Garfield said. "Black people are real big on respect, especially poor black people. However that respect gets defined, once that line has been crossed, you see violence and violation."
Entrenched habits
The experts also say other causes are at play that also factor into the deaths of black women at the hands of their partners. These issues go back decades and are steeped in traditions and habits that are difficult to break.
For example, domestic violence researchers say black women often remain in volatile relationships longer than abused women of other races. Bent-Goodley said some "African-American women just don't feel safe in interacting with some of the systems" designated to help abuse victims, such as the police or even women's shelters.
Or if they do decide to leave an abusive partner, their plans are often met with resistance by family members or religious leaders. So the violence continues to escalate and many of the women don't even realize how dangerous their situation is.
"We don't really talk about domestic violence," Bent-Goodley said. "African-American women turn to either their friends or their faith-based community. Unfortunately, many of our faith-based communities tell them that divorce is a sin and that they should stay in the relationship. Some of the messages that we get can stop us from reaching out for help."
Bishop T.D. Jakes, senior pastor of The Potter's House in Dallas, said faith plays a major role in the issue. But he, too, stressed the other factors that lead to abuse.
"Statistics prove that during the recession, domestic violence increased drastically," Jakes said. "Anger and rage are building up in the hearts of men who feel helpless and hopeless. And more and more, men have rage that is suppressed. We have got to find a better way to handle our frustrations."
And in many other instances, black women who are abuse victims, instead of reporting the assaults or leaving, choose to fight back physically. The experts say it's a cultural standard that is often applauded and admired by those close to the women. But they also note that willingness to "take a punch if they have to" and then give one back can lead to even more intense abuse from an angry spouse or partner.
"One of the things that it means to be a man is to not be beaten up by a woman," Garfield said. "So it can take one of these things from a woman who is talking back to a man, to a woman who is hit defending herself, to escalating the violence."
Tonya Lovelace, director of the Women of Color Network in Harrisburg, Pa., said that because they are defending themselves, some women may mistakenly believe that they aren't really in an abusive relationship.
"We still may be willing to fight back and defend ourselves, where ultimately what we're trying to do is defend our relationship," Lovelace said. "By the time we come to the conclusion that we need outside help … something really severe has already happened. A lot of times we don't even see these women until they have been killed."
Lovelace said she believes she knows what drives that thinking by some abused black women to "stick in it longer."
"Some of that has to do with the idea that black men are scarce. We are at greater risk because of that and that belief that a little bit of violence in our relationship is nothing that can't be handled."
Declining cases
There is some good news, however. Overall domestic violence cases, including those involving blacks, have dropped dramatically for more than a decade. This trend is expected to continue as domestic violence laws are improved and applied more equitably.
Also, the experts said it is important to note that although studies prove black women are at much greater risk to become victims of intimate partner violence, the vast majority are not abused. And, they add, black men are not naturally inclined to abuse their partners.
But that is not to say that Bent-Goodley and others in her field are trying to play down the problem.
"Yes, it's gotten better since 1976, but it's still going on," said Campbell of Johns Hopkins, adding that both victims and abusers need help. "We need to make sure they get the kind of counseling they need. It can't be a family secret. They have to get professional help so that they don't continue the cycle.
"I firmly believe we can get better at this and decrease the number of homicides," Campbell added. "If I didn't, I wouldn't stay in the business."
The Violence Policy Center in Washington, D.C., found these facts in its 2012 report of 2010 domestic violence statistics for black women:
94 percent of black women killed by men in single victim/single offender incidents knew their killers.
Nearly 15 times as many black women were murdered by a man they knew than were killed by a stranger.
64 percent of black victims who knew their offenders were wives, ex-wives or girlfriends of the offenders.
The number of black women shot and killed by their husband or intimate partner was nearly five times as high as the total number murdered by strangers using all weapons combined.
Genesis Women's Shelter 24-hour hotline, 214-946-4357
The Family Place crisis hotline, 214-941-1991
National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1-800-799-7233
SIGNS OF ABUSE
Your partner gets extremely angry at the slightest provocation and blames you for everything.
Your partner seeks to control every aspect of your life.
Your partner hits, slaps, punches, kicks or strangles you.
Your partner threatens to harm you or your children.
Your partner threatens to commit suicide if you end the relationship.
SOURCE: Dallas Morning News research
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/headlines/20130921-black-women-at-greater-risk-of-becoming-victims-of-homicidal-domestic-violence.ece?nclick_check=1
Under Pressure: Domestic Violence in the Black Community
While other problems–high incarceration rates, the education attainment gap, housing instability, disproportionate HIV rates, and violent crime in black communities — are often the topic of discussion and activism, domestic violence is rarely discussed. It should be. Domestic violence is not only as much of a problem in the black community as it is across the nation, but its a bigger problem. More frequent. More lethal.
In 2005, African Americans accounted for nearly a third of the intimate-partner homicides. For years, the (few) studies that have addressed the issue of domestic violence in the black community have told the same story. A study published in 2000 reported that Black females experienced intimate partner violence at a rate 35% higher than that of white females, and about 22 times the rate of women of other races. In 2005, black women accounted for 22% of the intimate partner homicide victims and 29% of all female victims of intimate partner homicide.
Black men are also affected. The same 2000 study found that Black males experienced intimate partner violence at a rate about 62% higher than that of white males and about 22 times the rate of men of other races. Black men are also more likely than white men to be killed by their partners, though at a lower rate than black women. In 2005, black women were 2.4 times more likely than a black male to murdered by their partners. In 2002, the number one killer of African-American women ages 15 to 34 was homicide at the hands of a current or former intimate partner.
Why the higher rates? In part, the same old reasons: poverty (intimate partner violence is more frequent among those with lower incomes); un-and-underemployment (it's more frequent when the male partner is unemployed/underemployed); and housing disparities (its more common in couples living in poor neighborhoods). Massachusetts saw dramatic increases in rates of domestic violence between 2005-2007–probably another fun by-product of the recession. Drug and alcohol use are also linked to domestic violence.
So, in these trying times, what to do? Though it seems cliche, take care of each other. Battered black women who reported that they could rely on others for emotional and practical support were less likely to be re-abused, showed less psychological distress, and were less likely to attempt suicide. The same is true of women generally. If you are in an abusive relationship, seek support. Talk to a family member or friend and contact a local shelter or service. If you are not in an abusive relationship, be supportive–support your friends and family members and organizations that help victims of domestic violence.
In the meantime, we can and should keep working on the problems that exacerbate this one: poverty, un-and-under employment, housing disparities, etc. However, it is important to shine a light on this rarely-discussed issue. It is a matter of life and death.
http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/hblsasj/2009/10/20/under-pressure-domestic-violence-in-the-black-community/
BR, how pathetic, so now you're pulling out Black pain credentials to paint yourself like some Black community martyr? Wow, you see first hand what Black pain looks like, wow! Would you like an award for that? Shocking!
*My mum grew up in foster care; her first memory as a child is of a White woman leaning into her crib and pressing metal spoons that had been sitting in boiling hot water into her skin. Wow!
*There's not a woman in my family over the last 5 generations who has not lost her virginity to rape. Wow!
*My mum was 17 and homeless, kicked out by her White family because she was raped which made her a "filthy, dirty little girl." Wow!
*My mum was wondering the streets pregnant and homeless and had to literally fight to keep the authorities from carting her child off into care. Wow!
*My mother was made to stand up in class, as the afro haired Indo Caribbean girl in a completely White English school, and be used as an example while the teachers taught of Africa and how the people there swing from trees and eat bananas and live in mudhuts. Wow!
*My mum was made to eat, like a dog, under the table as the coloured child in her foster home from the age of about 4. Wow!
*And when visitors came over, she would have to sit in the garden until they left, that could mean from about 4 in the afternoon until about 4 in the morning, at the age of 4. Of course, that's until she got pneumonia and nearly died. So her White foster parents decided to just stick to making her kneel under the table, hidden behind the table cloth and eat from a bowl on the floor. Wow!
*My sister had to drop out of school for being jumped by 20 girls because she was fair skinned. Wow!
*I had to work with my mum, for an old White lady, washing her privates, feeding her, and cleaning up her feces, throughout my teens while studying, and everyday I was told I was her "slave" and called "girl," or, her favourite "stupid little girl." Wow!
*My childhood sweetheart got caught up in the wrong crowd and was tortured to death and found in a river, where he had been beaten so savagely, he was nearly decapitated. Wow
*My mum finds it difficult to use the wii remote, because she can't keep her hands completely steady, after being beaten and raped by her ex partner for years, until the doctor told her, at just 5 stone, that if she didn't flee with her two children, the next beating would be her last. Wow!
*Although my dad worked for years, earning two masters degrees, after a stellar career, one new White woman decided she didn't like him, complained that he had been rude, and my dad was laid off, where he was on the brink of bankruptcy. Wow!
*We had our place broken into twice when I was a little girl, on both occasions I was there allll alone. Do you think the burglars were nice to me BR. Wow!
*My mum, my dad and my stepdad have worked really, really hard to pull ourselves out of the projects and now our family . . . sits around saying "wow isn't it shocking what we've all been through, because these are not stories we here everyday in the hood, these are rare experiences for us po' Black folk." Naw, we just thank God for another day, dust ourselves off and get on with it. Look at you pulling out stories of Black pain that you know of as some kind of Black certificate. Just look at you go.
How truly pathetic. No BR, you're right, the Black community are made up of alcoholics, it isn't poverty and unemployment that creates our cyclical oppression and disadvantage, I'm so sorry the idea of poverty and unemployment as opposed to alcoholism has offended you. Please forgive me.
And I'm so sorry that us talking amongst ourselves saying we want more diversity in our images upset you and your Blackness. And I'm terribly sorry Linda correcting you that twerkin is not an ancient African dance contrary to your tiresome rants, has gotten you so ruffled. I'm so sorry dear.
Let's do this BR, you don't mention my name again, and I won't mention your name. Please don't address me anymore, let's just pretend we don't see each other on this blog. With every post you get more and more offensive, so I'd rather we just stopped right here please. Please flash your badge of Blackness at everyone else, I no longer wish to engage with you. Thanks very much. Bye bye now.
Linda, fantastic clips, and, I said Im naive about Jamaica, so these were extremly entertaining and revealing of other aspects of Jamaican culture they just dont show us…
Linda, just to clarify, I would never diminish you experiances, and who you are, that was never my intention…I perceived you were diminishing my arguments and proofs by breaking it down as its just fine for me to tinker with jazz and brazil music but, Im white so I can not really understand black and brown peoples problems and interests
Abagond did the same thing on the Obama thread and just took my arguments and very important information and said it was just arguments of "a white man".
for me that is cold, that if I bring in powerful proof of what im saying, if its American policy, sex discusions, black culture discusions, some one can hide behind "your just white"
for me , its like the Arab trader argument where I said up front the Atlantic slave trade is worse, and I still get slapped with it…is loses validity at that point
its not proving my wife is blacker, its, saying i have been involved with a person 28 years, i have nurtured her cultural needs , i have insights into her problems and fears and actual day to day outside battles she has to fight and, a tremendous prejudice against her culture of dance when i try to book it, and beleive me, she knocks audiences out when they see her everytime, so i know its the bias of the people who do the bookings
i cant accept just having my arguments and devastating proof be dismissed because "im just a white man and dont know what its like to be black" when the oposing arguments are judging harshly and putting down other Afro diasporic cultures that they dont happen to aprove of..or try to define what is "sexualising " about it
I respect very much your testimony, Ebonymonroe, then you understand very much what my wife went through, and for you to describe me as having a perverse sex life with black women, would be in stark contrast to the truth , that i have supported my wife's struggles, her past traumas and her present daily fight just to be able to get on a stage and express her culture…and that is one serious , incredibly hard fight
this is no internet debate for me, where i get out of the computor and go back to a life of riley…i face these biased attitudes about her culture on a big time daily basis trying to get her on a stage, and, she has been admired and her work praised from new york to rio to los angeles to sao paulo, to recife to miami so its not because she doesnt have the talent
we fought tooth and nail to get the world music billboard charting two cds, and lots of radio play..we know we have the goods , but bang into some of the same things you see argued on this thread but not in a black activist concept
this battle is our real life..i dont hide behind her, i defend her and her culture and the wonderful dancers that also work with us
dancers, and you know if you were one, are very short shelf life and delicate, they dont argue back with people and fight people…they precious artists who deserve to be defended
Buddhuu , who is the arrogant one is you,sitting back and saying "pr awnd" or what ever, twice, sitting back rooting as somebody equates my sex life with black women as perverse, as she gets high fived as though that is some kind of valid agrument sais a lot about you and the others who supported that…you dont deserve my respect, you deserve to find out what a chump you are
Budhuu,so i have little patience with amateur musicians like you who talk big political anarchistic communinstic lingo but cant stand up for black idioms that are being persecuted and judged..just look at the history i brought in and you are sitting back and saying prawnd when my sex life with black women is slandered and and my wifes culture could be flushed down the toilet by this logic, because i know bare booty samba dancing will be next in the barril and already is on other blogs, no im not hiding behind my wife, im defending her culture…a chump like you doesnt get that
legion, go read some chomsky
well, legion, my explanation is in moderation
I have never put Modern sensuous expressive Black dance dance culture down. This really had nothing to do with Samba or what have you. What you don't seem to understand is that the dynamics of Black culture extend into areas you don't seem to understand. That's why Blacks complaining about very one sided depictions of their culture throws you off, because you can't put it into context. I recently had a contentious debate with a young man where I was arguing that Black female s-xuality and sensuality is rejected in Western society whereas White women are allowed to express this without being so harshly criticised and labelled as threatening, in the same way Black male s-xuality is often labelled as brutish in comparison to White male s-xuality and sensuality. So I have never been against it, but being versed in the dynamics of my community, I see other angles of dehumanisation that you seem to interpret as Westernization and prudish. But then you turn and say we don't know our culture when.
1. You have been proven wrong in that the Mapouka is a traditional African dance, twerkin is a part of modernised Black culture, the very thing you've been rallying against, (modernisation).
2. Conservatism was not the markings of Westernization upon African society, African culture was in fact very conservative in its values without the help of White people
3. You are not as knowledgeable about Black culture as you think. Like in your objection of unemployment vs. your random assumption of a theory regarding alcoholism being the culprit behind problems in domestic life for Black peoples.
I say this politely, but you have been proven wrong here, a lot. I would rather end engaging in the debate just to go around in circles on this, by agreeing to disagree on facts, if you wish. I have already stated you're knowledgeable about Brazilian Black music, but there are many other aspects of Black life you've been shown to be completely clueless about.
Naw BR, you have continually made rude remarks to Black commenters, and have gone on about booty and the beauty of booty in Black culture and your right to interracial s-x, this was the wrong context to tell Black people who were discussing their desire to see more diversity in the depictions of their culture that they're 60's militant rhetoric puppets, or that we're being militant feminists, or Western religious brainwashed anti Black cultural puppets. When you keep saying things like this there will come a time when this kind of argument will take place. No one came in at you BR, you're the one who came in at Black people during a discussion about the saturation of exploitative images and began condemning our perspective. You brought this on yourself.
*your random assumption on a theory
*engaging in the debate instead of continuing just to go
on Thu Jan 30th 2014 at 18:56:22 King
All of this seemed to start when some posters quite reasonably expressed that What Beyonce was doing was inappropriate for children, and that they wished to see more modest depiction of Black women that equal the wider range of depictions of White women worldwide.
I really can't see how that is controversial BR. Nobody said that there is no place at all for sensuality and "booty,"
In a nutshell.
on Thu Jan 30th 2014 at 19:09:53 Sharina
@Constantly, Buddhuu, and Legion
Besides the fact that I am enforcing my new year's resolution of no longer engaging in ridiculousness, I just don't have the knowledge of Linda and patience of Ebony to deal with B.R. In fact I can say I am in shock, that he has stooped so low as to say the things he is saying to people in here. Though I probably should have known better when I saw how things were going with Kiwi. Good luck dealing with him.
Though I am confused on what interracial sex has to do with anything.
I don't understand how a very simple statement has gone this far.
"Three-year-olds shouldn't be twerking."
"Yes they SHOULD, you repressive prude!!!"
Seriously, I don't get it.
And yes I think you are bring about a lot of ridiculousness. You need to take your wife and child away from this subject as they have no means to be in it. This is between you and everyone else. No one is saying you can't love your interracial sex with whoever the heck you want to, but let's be real honest….your sex life has nothing to do with the degradation of black women and black culture through erotic modern dancing.
I have said all I care to say and you may proceed to make rude remarks and I will proceed to ignore. Though I am saying this with love.
As far as I can tell, B.R. brought up interracial sex, pretty much out of the blue to paint certain commenters as bigots.
I am not using my knowledge of white literature to tell whites who is whiter. I do not dismiss their arguments because they are somehow not white enough. I do not tell them that I understand their culture better than they do, that they only understand it at a superficial "pop" level – and then call them chumpy.
What I HAVE said is that blacks on the whole understand white RACISM better than whites. Not because of any profound understanding of white culture but because they are its victims. I think that is just common sense.
LOL. I will be completely honest in saying I truly am one who got confused by what he was saying.
Oddly enough that is precisely the same thing Randy was trying to imply that you do on another thread. He called for outrage. It is amazing how certain white commenters can't tell the difference between the two different acts. Though I believe they know the difference quite well, but are seeking for any reason to validate the action as OK.
on Thu Jan 30th 2014 at 19:52:24 Kiwi
Nice try. B. R. is just going to say you don't know your own culture and that you're anti-interracial.
@ Kiwi
I deleted your last comment. Please keep his wife out of it.
Randy and B.R. are more alike than either would care to admit.
Abagond said
"I'm not using my knowledge of White literature to tell Whites who is Whiter."
This literally made me laugh out loud. I wish I could see you do that to a group of White people, maybe in a coffee shop or something. Just walk over and begin arguing "I'm Whiter than you," "are not," "are to." "You couldn't be half as White as me, I'm Abagond and I am a White culturalist, I've sacrificed my life for White immersion. I'm as White as the driven snow." You're Americanized Whiteness, but I'm deep in the trenches of Nordic understanding.
You should do that on April fools or something. Just don't get yourself arrested.
Lol @ Kiwi
And no BR, I'm not making fun of you, I just thought what Abagond said was funny, before you take it the wrong way.
B.R. said:
You know, actually, B.R., both of my "pwned" comments were childish and I apologise for them.
They were prompted by a combination of frustration at some of the things you'd said and relief that Ebonymonroe mounted a very robust rebuttal. Nevertheless, the comments were stupid and added nothing to the discussion. Sorry about that.
One of the things about your posts that frustrates me is that half of the time I simply can't figure out what the hell you're talking about. You tend to ramble and your posts mix elements that I cannot sensibly link together into anything rational.
I think you either misunderstand or misrepresent what people have said. Your assertion that your wife's culture is under attack seems to be a wilfully perverse misrepresentation of the concerns raised by other posters.
What does my being an amateur musician have to do with my anarchist politics? Or this discussion? To me a professional musician has no more intrinsic value or merit than an amateur one. You're better than me because you sell your music where I share mine freely? Or do you mean amateur in the sense amateurish? Have you heard me play?
You dislike anarchists yet you tell Legion to go read the writings of Chomsky, an anarchist. Is it sarcasm?
You say that I "cant stand up for black idioms that are being persecuted and judged". What the hell are you talking about? What is the context for this remark?
I can make little sense out of the rest of the post that I quoted above.
B.R., I respect your immersion in your music, but I think you do your music a disservice by using it as a tool in your elitist, self-aggrandising rants, just as I think you show disrespect and a lack of consideration for your family by relating their very private business for an audience of people that they do not know.
It is a shame that you show so little respect for other genres of music.
It also seems a shame that you seem to show little respect for women. The words you use are telling. You don't speak of love and relationships, but interracial sex.
Oh, and the other half of the time I find your posts frustrating because I did figure out what you meant.
Just registered your recent posts buddhuu, very well said.
on Thu Jan 30th 2014 at 23:41:16 mstoogood4yall
wow this is still going on… in other beyonce related news…. http://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Beyonce-by-the-book-Rutgers-offers-course-on-star-5189962.php
on Thu Jan 30th 2014 at 23:42:14 Randy
I recall on several occasions having read that you attribute the attitudes and actions of white people to their presumed guilt over slavery and Jim Crow.
That claim runs quite contrary to my experiences.
Whether or not one believes that such guilt is warranted, I feel confident in stating that for the most part it doesn't exist. Notable exceptions include the children of the wealthy left and those attending underclassman-level liberal arts college courses.
on Fri Jan 31st 2014 at 02:27:47 abagond
@ Randy
Of course you feel no guilt. That is the whole point of being racist. White racism grew out of the need to avoid those feelings. It is like a moral painkiller. It is why Ms Zhukova found it so easy to sit on that chair.
on Fri Jan 31st 2014 at 02:32:58 mary burrell
You can go to university and take a course in Beyonce'.
on Fri Jan 31st 2014 at 02:43:23 Sharina
And then people wonder why Americans are labeled stupid. I mean how much can people idolize a person?
Isn't it interesting that Randy was the same individual that claimed "the evidence of absence is not the absence of evidence: yet feel confident in saying "Whether or not one believes that such guilt is warranted, I feel confident in stating that for the most part it doesn't exist." It is so comical at times that I could die laughing.
I remember some years ago I can't remember which university it was, but they had a course in Tupac. I know I would pass with flying colors in a Michael Jackson course LOL!!!
LOL. Then I would have had to cheat off your paper. I might get a b on the Tupac course though.
on Fri Jan 31st 2014 at 03:20:27 eco
"White racism grew out of the need to avoid those feelings."
I do not understand what do you mean by that. It looks like circular logic to me. Racism is a mechanism allowing people not to feel guilty about racism? Are there "turtles all the way down"?
on Fri Jan 31st 2014 at 03:45:41 Randy
Of course you feel no guilt. That is the whole point of being racist.
I didn't have any family in the US before 1900. Why would I feel guilty about acts that people who are not remotely related to me committed hundreds of years ago?
"But you benefit from those actions", someone might retort.
Sure, but how far back should the guilt window go? Can you say for certain that you don't benefit from immoral actions sometime in the past hundred years?
It's almost certain that every person alive today in the world benefited from some brutal conquering tribe's immoral acts, if not from a great multitude of them.
If you expect people to feel guilt, then at least propose and argue for some "guilt window" standard that everyone should be held to.
Sharina:
Isn't it interesting that Randy was the same individual that claimed "the evidence of absence is not the absence of evidence: yet feel confident in saying "Whether or not one believes that such guilt is warranted, I feel confident in stating that for the most part it doesn't exist."
I make that statement having had decades of experience with white folks and often engaging them in conversation about such topics.
@Randy
"I make that statement having had decades of experience with white folks and often engaging them in conversation about such topics."—This statement is weak. As anyone in here could equally make that claim and it would only hold true on the people they have had conversations with on that topic or experience with. As it really only holds true in that regard to you. So I take any issue you take with abagond is moot? Or only acceptable in terms of when you do it? either way could you present a figure if the amount of white people compared to the population that you have actually had experience with?
@Legion and Randy
Not to be too much of a pest but I don't think he is referring to the guilt of slavery, but rather the guilt of racist acts period. Though I could be wrong I don't think one should automatically jump to slavery as the auto guilt factor.
When it comes to white people and American institutions you have the mind of an 11 year old boy. You take everything at face value. But when it comes to blacks everything has to be proved, evidence weighed, dissected, hairs split, goalposts moved, all of it. Suddenly. And you couch it in an "objective" tone even though you are being anything but objective.
on Fri Jan 31st 2014 at 10:28:06 B. R.
Abagond, where did I ever try to tell people how to be black? That is your evasion of the real issue, that you dont want to face , Ive gone out of my way to explain that, if you cant get that , I cant help you, you just want to keep your blinders on
I brought in a huge list of various countries, various religions from differant decades stretching over a century, with, a variey of afro diasporic cultures
the lack of ability of people on here able to address the frightening reality and how it parralels the thinking on here , absolutly speaks volumes about the ignorance flowing here
just look at jazz. the main reason in most cases jazz dancing was banned , was exactly because people labled it as "sexualised", and , most of these cases is definitly people who want to get in control of the images going out
this is exactly what is going on here…
just look at the huge amount of represion of jazz dancing based on the same mentality permeating this thread . my gosh Abagond, you cant look at the early century New York times article banning jazz dancing and see the same tone on here? This is our New York history,an incredible revelation to exactly the same thought process here and the sound of crickets churping and the inability to address it is deafening
and Legion or Buddhuu wonder why I ask them if they can hum a wayne shorter song or actualy know the exhaultation of actualy being inside an up tempo bebop…because , if you actualy really dont understand the true depth and profound meaning of what jazz is, the ho hum , "i dont get what he means.." and then the put downs seriously reveals that people dont get the devastating truth right in front of their eyes…they sluff over it, dismiss it and bury it…and, listening to jazz isnt like playing it with the masters. If you arnt on the inside , actualy playing that up tempo, you have no idea what the incredible rewards are, you could never really value it as much as the person who took the time to devote major portions of their lives to try to learn it, who took themselves to the masters and humbly allowed them to demonstrate how to play it…something for Buddhuu never did with jazz, and for sure legion
and you ask why i make a point of a Wayne shorter song or if someone could actualy play be bop
they could never really grasp the devastation of what it means to read of the surpresion and uptight represion and political agendised railroading of one of the most special american Afro diasporic cultures ever created
anytime you want to step in, King, and comment on this, just feel free
And Kiwi describes the incredible young talented Brazilian girls I brought in as just "shaking their booty" …!? You agree with that King? That is all there is to that Afro diasporic culture
does it make any differance to Kiwi, or you , or anyone on here that those dances are deemed "patrimonio cultural of Rio de Janeiro"
so a huge vibrant , one of the absolute most important cities in the world deems this afro diasporic culture a patrimonio cultural of Rio de Janeiro, but to Kiwi its just black girls booty shaking , while that is sluffed off big time here
and that is all right with you , King, and everyone else on here
shame on you and anyone who thinks like that
In see through Kiwi, what a pity , King, you cant
the ignorance is outstanding
you all just go right ahead and reduce incredible Afro diasporic cultures to just black women booty shaking, strip club culture , which people dont have a handle on here, and in the process ijnore the information I brought in how samba and samba dancing was banned in history, and just recently
so hades no, im not hiding behind my wife,im standing dead in front of her and protect her culture from being flushed down the toilet from the hack repressed surpresion of afro diasporic culture mentality and ignorance that is flowing big time right here
yeah, to Kiwi, those incredible talented brazilian girls are just black women shaking their booty…i would be laughing my self silly if it wasnt so frightening, not Kiwi, who is wrapped up in anti interracial sexual issues, its how most people here would just go along and agree…i call that pathetic
on Fri Jan 31st 2014 at 10:58:46 buddhuu
Kind of a fair point, but I don't agree that it's the same thing. Jazz was/is more closely related to the African roots of the music. It was and remains a genuine creative force. Some of it has sold out, but there is plenty of integrity left. Some of the most obsessive and dedicated musicians I know are indeed jazz players. It's not my genre, but it most certainly is the one that some of my friends love so I get it preached at me regularly enough.
I think I know what you're saying about control of the images and the labeling that could advance that agenda, but I think you're equating things that are not equal.
The kind of dancing that one sees in contemporary popular music and the kind that is misappropriated by the Cyrus kid is not performed for any cultural reason IMO. It is deliberately sensational, provocative and cheapened. It is a sell-out commercial perversion of the stuff you are concerned about. It is lining the pockets of white-owned media corporations. It isn't deserving of your protection. It is a mockery of the forms you love.
It is analogous to the way "art" becomes a cheap commodity when it falls into the grubby hands of charlatans like the guy who did the Black Woman Chair cr/\p in Abagond's other post. It is art, music and dance with no depth, no regard for history or culture, no value.
It is not art. It is not good, natural sensuality and sexuality. It is marketing. It is product.
It's part of the superficial, dumbed-down rot that cheapens all our lives.
And as I took you all on a tour of Africa to show you the absolute proof of the connections in these Afro diasporic cultures, people fall all over them selves focusing on one clip, and one african testimony, when there is no shortage is Islam in africa that is the enemy of this culture, like christianity and judiesm, in their fundamentalist forms
yet, my unshakable proof is sluffed off and people rally on one clip unspite of the fact the Tanzania clip uses a traditional beat that has nothing to do with contemporary pop music…look, all day I could bring in youtubes of African youtubes proving my point, ive seen some nigerian ones that really traditional, with traditional costumes that makes twerking look like the twist..i just cant find it now
the real funnt thing, in my wonderful social experiance growing up in the black american community, in my time, by the way we had way more dances than you all have today, one of the dances we had was the "slow grind", a slow dance in a stationary position where the couples are entwined in somethong much closer to actual sex than twerking, twerking is like a long sistane phone call compared to the slow grind…interesting people dont get that on here
and, its really not about "not knowing', its what people are missing and losing out on
ive never dealt with so many people who are so happy to cop a
"they dont even know what we are missing" attitude
Most all of you arguing with me, are very well versed in the afro diasporic grooves that they grew up with in high school…that is their main point of referance, and it is very valid..and I am very well versed in the cultures I grew up with in high school also
but, let me make this very clear, and i was into jazz , cuban music brazilian music and African music before I hit high school, but, until I actualy immersed myself into playing as a profesional, actualy going outside of my high school dancing and accompanying dancers in other afro diasporic rhythms , that is when the realisations start coming in..yeah i listened to jazz and practiced it with my bongos, but until i started following some older black horn players around who i happened to meet in a james brown cover band we played in, who were actualy top flight chicago jazz musicians, going to the south side and west side, people here describe as 'ghetto', one guy was Ahmed jamals brotyher in law to give you an idea of the hight of involvement in jazz these musicians represented, until then, man, i didnt really know how profound it was..and they immedietly whipped my rear end into learning up tempo be bop
not long after that, realising to make a living at music you have to play everything, I ended up in chicagos Free Street theater, and the dance master and chorographer was Wilbert Bradley , a one time dancer in the Kathiryn Dunham dance company, any one on here not heard of her, in spite of my mis spelling? I fell in love with my first wife, a black women from the projects . watching her Dunham technique
and, Wilbert had been married to a Brazilian woman and could whip off authentic samba steps to my jive jazz samba, which would be a rarity back then in chicago , as well as i accompanied him in an afro dance presentation we took to black neighborhoods i had no idea existed in Chicago and i saw huge amounts of black neighborhoods just playing in funk bands and jazz groups
this is the kind of experiance that goes lifetimes past high school immersion in afro diasporic culture or amateur players like Budhuu, who brings in seeger, who sat in with us in the frre street theater, by the way, proudly announces he was a communist and scroll up and see how many communist countries banned jazz
Buddhuu, why do you think im trying to peel back the layers so people can see what the actual origins. roots and parralel fontes are?
i see through the cultural riciculousness more thsn anyone since im trying to book actual diasporic culture and run into the prejuduce , and how the black expert dancers of samba are being replaced by models and acrtresses
and black kmages on Braziliantv are more repressed than the USA, and the ones that come in under quota preasure, are acting culturless
i see through the music business better than anyone here because it is my business and i see all the bs up front and personal, or is that credibility and experiance going to be dissmissed also?
look at kiwi's statement, trying to be so hip and "look at me gallery and my pop political regurgitations" which you actualy did acusing me also of hiding behind my wife ( which is a jive political agenda thrown around on blogs), who i will "the word legion used" defend her culture, which by the way legion, until you actualy address my points instead of low blows for nothing, which you are guilty of, its hard to take you seriously…
in the process, he reduces a valuable Afro diasporic culture to black women booty shaking, while its recognised big time in Rio
this guy really has no idea of afro brazilian culture , he is on the kinder garden kiddie pool depth of understanding about it, the fact people actualy support his ignorance is the crux of this problem
please speak directly to that aspect of Kiwi, King, I would like to hear your opinion of exactly that, Kiwi reducucing recognised afro diasporic dancing to black girls shaking their booty
"those who dont know their history are doomed to repeat it'
in my opinion, twerking should be embraced and the best practicionors brought forth and their names recognised and point out the Cyrus falacy…im not arguing about Cyrus, and i am hyper sensitive to the discrimination of black culture in media
B.R., YOU brought Seeger into this thread. I observed his passing on the Open Thread and, as I have said, my mention of him was as a good man, not as a musician.
Seeger is off topic, but as you are determined to try to use the poor chap to discredit me, I will point out that Seeger's communism was very discriminating and he was not one to blindly support all flavours of that ideology. Seeger was never a supporter of oppression.
Your debating tactics are dishonest and inauthentic. You argue in bad faith.
You use the phrase:
[…]let me make this very clear[…]
If you want to make anything clear, may I suggest that you begin by spell checking your long posts. Or at least read through them before posting to make sure that they are intelligible. It really is hard to extract the meaning from some of them.
And what is the real issue that I am evading?
[…]why do you think im trying to peel back the layers so people can see what the actual origins. roots and parralel fontes are? […]
[…]i see through the cultural riciculousness more thsn anyone […]
[…]i see through the music business better than anyone here because it is my business[…]
Ok, I give up.
You see through black cultural issues more than the black people who have been debating with you…
You see through the music business better than anyone here because you prostitute your music for money and drop names. Do you know the musical pedigree of any of the other people who read and comment here? Do you know if any of them work in music? Do you know how many of them live and breathe music for the sheer love of it rather than for the money?
You are presumptuous, irrational and arrogant. You have delusions of grandeur that admit no meaningful discussion.
I think you are weird enough that there's little danger of people assuming that all white people think like you.
@ Legion
"It's a hard sell that any white person of today should feel guilty about slavery. But do they feel something about it? Do they know it was morally wrong? Those things are pertinent; the guilt? not so much, in my opinion."
Many whites do feel guilt at some level. You can tell because of the strange way they talk about it, which only makes sense as an attempt at moral blindness. But slavery is hardly the only source of guilt. There is genocide, Dead Indian Land and ongoing racial inequality which unfairly benefits them. Ideas like model minorities, black pathologies, the Bootstrap Myth, "racism is natural", and so on, allows them to avoid feelings of guilt for benefiting from those inequalities.
When whites become truly anti-racist, a big thing they have to overcome is their feelings of shame and guilt. It is something their racism had protected them from.
"This 'guilt' thing sounds like the 'shaming' stuff Solesearch was talking about on the Mindy Kaling thread. I wasn't a fan."
I am not trying to guilt anyone. I am just saying how I think it works,
Any reparations for Black or Native Americans would probably come out of general taxation. So to the degree someone has benefited from a country founded on racist crimes, to that degree they would pay.
OFF TOPIC: Pete Seeger, B.R.'s wife, communism, Chomsky, interracial sex.
Noted, Abagond. Apologies for straying.
Ideas like model minorities, black pathologies, the Bootstrap Myth, "racism is natural", and so on, allows them to avoid feelings of guilt for benefiting from those inequalities.
I think you're technically correct, but probably for a different reason. If you actually believe in something like the "bootstrap myth", then there's no grounds to feel guilt. In other words, it's not just a dodge.
When whites become truly anti-racist, a big thing they have to overcome is their feelings of shame and guilt.
Not necessarily.
With a few exceptions, every desirable patch of land on earth has been settled (often multiple times) by one group "immorally" displacing another.
The lack of guilt that most white Americans have is consistent with the lack of guilt everyone else around the world has about the atrocities previously committed on the patch of land on which they currently reside or on which their ancestors resided.
I think that's a pretty good start, but there are a couple of serious challenges with that paradigm:
Since many pieces of land have been fought over numerous times, the people whom you'd compensate for immorally seizing their land in all likelihood immorally seized it themselves.
If you imagine a world where a black person is able to achieve full economic and political rights, then you've imagined a time when that black person also benefits from historical racism even as their ancestors were victims of it.
Should that person be absolved from reparations and/or be the beneficiary of them?
What you're then claiming is that among people who never themselves committed any racist crimes, deciding who pays and who benefits comes down to calculating a certain "genetic distance" from people long dead.
Ultimately that plan is rather (bizarrely) arbitrary.
on Fri Jan 31st 2014 at 14:51:10 Herneith
The fact that you don't want to pump white women or enter into marriage with them. You also hate it when black women(especially 'thick' twerking ones, hook up with white men with 'gay' face).
on Fri Jan 31st 2014 at 16:12:33 Ebonymonroe
You can't compare Jazz to twerkin because Jazz was up against Jim Crow era and a time when anything that was secular was considered devil worship. That's like rallying against cencorship in movies just based on what wasn't allowed in the 50's. You're not putting things into context. Twerkin is not a traditional African dance, you can't prove it is by providing a video of someone twerkin to traditional drums, that just shows someone doing a contemporary dance to traditional drums. There's nothing ancient and traditional about twerkin, no matter how many Black people from around the world you've got doing it on film. The (much more tame) mapouka is a traditional Afro diasporic dance, not twerkin. If you're really against contemporary pop culture not drowning out original African dance culture, you'd be trying to get rid of twerkin to bring back the Mapouka. Kiwi and Legion are right, twerkin is a55 shaking, you can't intellectualize it. Budduu is right, BR. If your family wants to twerk in thongs and you want to campaign for their right to do so, that comes under the umbrella of BR vs. anti nudists and/or conservative standards up against raunch cultures of South America. It does not fall under the category of "preserving old African culture," because twerkin is not a part of old African culture.
Yeah, and my stepdad worked in the music industry for years, he's a musician from the funk era, The Ohio players era, and he's worked around everyone from Prince, to Dru Hill, to The police (Sting's band), he's a multi instrumentalist, a former radio host, and former DJ, and he's Black, but he'd tell you the same thing sweetheart.
on Fri Jan 31st 2014 at 17:23:02 King
@ BR
Well, I don't understand why cultural differences should be seen as necessarily oppositional, especially when the cultures are geographically separated. There have always been different cultures with different ideas about dress, morality, and custom.
Why can't we just say, that Black American women would like to see a more demure representation of themselves in the marketplace of ideas? Is it necessary to see those statements through the prism of Brazilian culture? Why can't they just be two different cultures with two different desired standards?
This is the beginning of my confusion on the matter.
…please speak directly to that aspect of Kiwi, King, I would like to hear your opinion of exactly that, Kiwi reducucing recognised afro diasporic dancing to black girls shaking their booty."
I did not understand his description to be reductive. But "booty shaking" is indeed part of some afro diasporic dances—certainly not all, or even most. Neither can "booty shaking" be understood to be the sole domain of African dance, since there are so many examples of variation of it within other cultural dance traditions as well.
^^^(In the voice of Rosie Perez)
That made me crack up. "How many foods start with the letter Q?" BR doesn't understand dry mouthedness.
I deleted the three comments you suggested. If I screwed it up somehow, please let me know.
Thanks so much Abagond, I really appreciate it.
"Gold star for Marcus."
*That's like rallying against censorship
*musician from the funk era, The Ohio players era. He's worked around
@Legion
Absolutely. I was only speculating and I tend to think of here and now and not necessarily slavery past; though I might want to think outside of my box. Lol
Glad you are better
Oop, O forgot to put one in parenthesis. Sowwy, Abagond you can chuck the post above in moderation.
The reason why I mentioned Soul to soul and Jamiroquai is not because Soul to soul were Jazz, but because by saying Black British culture is all Pop you displayed how ignorant and elitist you are about the culture you claim to know so much about. R&B was centered on a club called The African centre in London. It was host to a huge movement of Black bohemians and Afrocentrists in the 90′s, Soul to soul was a main stapple, and grew out of this. Jazz, in the UK, was housed at the famous London Jazz club Ronnie Scotts.
British raga/drum and base Levy. Apache
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL2Bgj-za5k)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J5qUw4X7eTc)
Black British R&B Omar
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFnclBOlr6o)
The late Lynden David Hall (who was like our Maxwell)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wu2KDjxIog)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F49DPqLKiLE)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TB54dZkzZOY)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjUlOZpOWQw)
The Brand new heavies
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMO84Twq9Ow)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB8nIGKbpJY)
British Hip hop Blak Twang Kano
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2i564j2rEc8)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mznv4ACjkzc)
Acid Jazz Zero7
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Rytgt-7YKs)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3R_3h6zQEs)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7K72X4eo_s)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_QP6Mi0vz50)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lx9-fjlh7Y4)
Id like to address Abagond and King
Abagond, I brought in various links about represion and banning of Afro diasporic cultures, not just jazz, from all over the world and diferant eras
King, dont you think that these bannings are a universal condemnation of Afro diasporic cultures? For many of the same reasons? If that happened and is happening, several were contemporary, I think we absolutly should look at all Afro diasporic cultures for the best perspective , and for the education of seeing the similariteis in the represion and destruction, I find that incredible, and it blows my mind the similarity of represions and the similarity in concepts
Abagond, i asked you about the times article and you avoid it and try to compare me to Randy , and you are boxing me in as "the white man" which i think is your plan
and i have explained many times , Im not trying to say what any black person is suposed to do or like or be like…never ever…im defending black artists from being judged and charactorised as using images that are "sexualising"
First, who is to resally define what is "sexualising"? My main reason for bringing in Brazil at all is to show that people are exposed to a huge amount of images that have nudity and sensuality and they arnt abnormal, so what is the real mentality behind making sensuality or nudity something bad, including styles of dancing?And the need to repress them? Why do Afro diasporic cultures get the brunt of this? I absolutly think that Brazil is extremly important to compare, just to show that the hype that nude images or sensuality or dances that work various parts of the body , is only that hype
second, King, I dont want to tell any woman on here how they are suposed to feel in any way, they are welcome to have their opinions, but, I dont think they represent the way all black women feel. In the Kenya dancing contest and the Tanzania video, the audiance had more women watching intensly what about the huge amount of black women who want to express themselves doing these dsances? Does their voices count , too
Ill tell you right now, I dont blame the women in north America for being uptight and defensive…I blame the the men . Their raunch or represion ethic has been running it and men can be the biggest dogs on earthand make women feel uncomfortabel about being sensual, and that is what happened. There is something on the Brazilian beaches and in the samba culture, that the men dont threaten the women they are allowed to express their senuality if they want to and not looked on as dirty, or easy, orsomething bad. Im absolutly not saying there isnt domestic violence big time and manchism…but, for some reason, itdeosnt carry over into sensuality. and the women respond very much, and end up controlling the sensuality and competing with each other to be more sensual…they dont care what the men think , they are doigit for each other
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdNUHKt6Ehg)
first, unrelated to this link, i just want to say, with out implicating Pay it Forward in anyway as agreeing with me , but, I apreciete her two posts
this link is a prime time comercial in brazil they run every 6 hours or so 2 months before carnival…its prime time, all ages and sexes see this, this is images running , and, people are not abnormal
ill say this right now…if the people who are arguing with me, actualy say they have no problem with this at all, as an image that could run anywhere, i wont say another word
King, dont you think that these bannings are a universal condemnation of Afro diasporic cultures? For many of the same reasons?
But my point was that in the comments on this thread, I don't think that banning was implied. From what I read, AA women were looking for a little more balance in the image that is presented of them.
It's not that they want dances banned, they just don't want to be defined by them. Come, surely you can see some reason in that.
second, King, I dont want to tell any woman on here how they are suposed to feel in any way, they are welcome to have their opinions, but, I dont think they represent the way all black women feel."
Unless I am mistaken, most of the comments were not aimed at declaring "what most Black women feel" but what the commenter felt, of what they sensed that others around them felt.
Again… it's not so much the dance itself. I think most share the following concerns:
1) The appropriate age for sexual dancing
2) The appropriate i=environment for sexual dancing
3) Seeking balance in the image of Black women
Most commenters aren't saying the dances should be totally banished.
First, who is to resally define what is "sexualising"?
i think most would agree that like most definitions, there are some gradations, overlaps, and fuzzy edges. I think there are also things that almost anybody would categorize as sexualizing. So, there are a few things that might be harder to peg around the edges, but most would agree on the basics.
ll tell you right now, I dont blame the women in north America for being uptight and defensive"
That is a personal judgement. The definition of an "uptight" person is anyone who's moral views ardmore conservative than your own. To Charles Manson, you might seem to be an "uptight" person.
[Men] Their raunch or repression ethic has been running it and men can be the biggest dogs on earth and make women feel uncomfortable about being sensual, and that is what happened.
It is illogical to suppose that men are the only ones who feel that sexuality should be reserved for specific occasions and shared with specific people.
There is something on the Brazilian beaches and in the samba culture, that the men dont threaten the women they are allowed to express their senuality if they want to and not looked on as dirty, or easy, or something bad.
I don't find that to be credible. Are you saying that in Brazilian culture that there is no word for "Whore" and that prostitutes are treated with the same dignity and respect as legal secretaries? Do boyfriends never slap their women and call them "dirty" or "filthy" because they think they are coming on to another man? Is the Brazilian standard to try and find a wife who has had sex with as long a list of other men as possible before settling down with you?
It is so easy to overlook reality for ideology.
on Sat Feb 1st 2014 at 00:21:09 B. R.
King , I did say that there is no shortage of violence against women, and machoism, im speaking strictly that there is an atmosphere that allows women to feel safe on the beach to be scantily dressed and in the escolasas far as passistas…there are other places around the world that let sensuality roll, south of Spain , south of France, South Beach, some Mexican beaches, but no one has the emphasis on the booty that Brazil does , just to clarify the differance, many men prefer topless
Yes, men now, are not the only ones, Im reffering to the over all effect the repressive church has had on the western mind..behind much of our current ideas in the west of what is "bad" and what is "good", and men set those rules
King, I understand what you are saying that no one is calling for an outright ban, but, the "controlling the images" is the undercurrent that leads to surpresion and people start dictating what is good and bad , all those lincs I brought in, were about controling images, and , you have to ask , what mentalities and diologues about it were rolling to lead to those represions …I have never argued against expanding the positive images o black women and i brought in a high leval list myself of incredible black women that would enhance anyones idea of what positive images of black women can be..there is no argument from me on that…but i also respect very much the right and desire of black women to dance the dances they want to express themselves , and the right to watch it also, the women in some of the African lincs were the most attentive in the audience
Im surprised you would give Kiwi's demaning definition of what I brought in a pass .He sees black women shaking their booties, I see black women expresing their culture , that has been recognised by no less than the government of Rio de Janeiro, and I see them expressing Afro diasporic culture , Kiwi doesnt respect that culture, Rio de Janeiro does..Ill go with them
I just want to say, Pay it Forward, with out incriminating you as agreeing with what i said, that I apreciete your 2 posts
Abagond, any reason my youtube post wasnt put up? trying to show what kind of images you might see in Brazil in prime time?
King, that is the thing , Brazil is the living proof that very sensual erotic images can be boroadcast at any hour of the day, that children can be exposed and it doesnt make them abnormal compared to anyone else and kids can dance the dances,like the patrimonio cultureal I demonstrated.Seeing this and living it for almost 3 decades gives me no doubt thereisnt a problem with images showing dances and visions of sensual dress
prime time images you can see on tv a couple of months before carnival
Im trying to bring in a youtube , just now, of prime time images you could see in Brazil…if it gets up, and the people Im arguing with say they wouldnt object to these images being shown in prime time anywhere in the western world, ill stop posting totaly on this thread
on Sat Feb 1st 2014 at 00:49:48 Ebonymonroe
But no one has asked for the repression of Black sensuality, we've asked for Black women who are the balance to hypers-xual Black women, not be be repressed.
Let me ask you two questions BR,
1. do you walk on the beach in a thong?
2. Do the majority of men in Brazil walk on the beach in a thong?
on Sat Feb 1st 2014 at 00:54:51 buddhuu
@King.
Excellent, reasoned responses.
on Sat Feb 1st 2014 at 01:24:53 wordynerdygirl
@ B. R.
Like a few others have said, it's pretty hard to figure out exactly what your posts mean. I'm sorry but you really need to write in shorter paragraphs and confine yourself to the topic at hand.
Anyway, the messages that I get from your posts are:
1. You enjoy looking at booty at the beach and in twerking videos. More power to ya! I think most heterosexual men would agree with you there.
2. You don't like people whose views, if more widely held, would stop you from being able to see booty.
3. You think that many forms of Afro Caribbean, African and Afro Brazilian dance can be reducible to booty shaking/twerking. You've formed this view from your own experiences as the husband of an Afro Brazilian woman, and because of some YouTube videos.
4. Black women are naturally less 'hung up' on sex: they're more sensual, and if left to their own devices they like to show their booties off. The only reason why people on this thread are complaining about pre-pubescent girls twerking is because they've been brainwashed by whites, who (you imply) are more 'uptight' and conservative sexually.
B.R, I'd like to address point 4. Your assumption here ties in with the 'Jezebel' stereotype that Abagond covered in another post. I think Abagond fully debunked this stereotype in his post and further up on this thread.
Anyway, white people – particularly white women because we are really talking about women here – do NOT have a monopoly on sexual conservatism. Girls in Australia – a 92% white country –shake their bums in nightclubs and go topless at the beach.
In fact, the whole raunch culture that has given birth to horrible things like stripper poles for little girls comes from the Sexual Revolution, which was very much a 'white' people's movement in my opinion.
On a more personal note, I don't know whether you have a daughter but MOST fathers would not want their little girls to shake their bums in a suggestive manner. That is what most of the people on this thread are criticising and which you have refused to address.
Oh, and I forgot to say – you've also forgotten to respond to Linda's point about the conservative values of many African cultures. In addition to the cultures she mentioned, the Somali, Igbo, Kikuyu cultures also place a very high value on pre-marital virginity.
That is a concept that has been almost completely abandoned in the United States/the UK/Australia.
In other words, many African cultures are much MORE conservative about sexual matters than many Western cultures.
Wow, you've managed to condense everything I've been trying to say regarding why his positions make me so uncomfortable and what my position actually is, all this time, down to two posts. Incredible. I wondered, to myself, if I would have been able to do that if I were not sick at home stoned on medication, and the answer was no, probably not. You really are gifted with words.
on Sat Feb 1st 2014 at 03:25:49 Randy
As anyone in here could equally make that claim and it would only hold true on the people they have had conversations with on that topic or experience with.
However I do think that a black person is likely in a better position to know what black people are thinking and feeling than a white person.
Swap "black" and "white" in the above sentence and that statement also likely holds true.
Having grown up almost exclusively around white people, I was privy to conversations far and wide regarding issues such as race and crime (btw, these were often linked). More or less the same few themes were repeated hundreds and hundreds of times. "Guilt" rarely if ever came up.
My scope was obviously limited, but I think it's reasonable to suggest that I was able to take a general temperature reading of many people's feelings on those subjects.
And you couch it in an "objective" tone even though you are being anything but objective.
Certainly everyone has biases. And even those who strive for objectivity nonetheless fall short. Do I hold certain people and ideas to more rigor than others? Likely so.
Also consider that some arguments by their nature require a greater burden of proof than others. Some postulates require but a single counterexample to falsify them.
Given all of that, should there be less objectivity, or more? I vote for "more".
The challenge of developing a single standard for "historical guilt" (for lack of a better term) sits at much of the modern era's debate over historical accountability.
Actually my posts were merely a summary of your much more eloquent rebuttals.
Hope you get better soon though, must be horrible to be housebound with the flu!
on Sat Feb 1st 2014 at 06:54:42 King
Yes, men now, are not the only ones, Im reffering to the over all effect the repressive church has had on the western mind..behind much of our current ideas in the west of what is "bad" and what is "good", and men set those rules."
I hear this claim often, but then you'd also have to bemoan the even more sexually repressive influence of the mosque (which influences even more people worldwide) and the Temple. But in truth, most places don't allow blatant public display of sensuality. In fact, many non-Western countries are even more "prude" than the "Christian West."
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-450879/India-court-orders-Geres-arrest-obscene-kiss.html
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/12/30/china-internet-idUSTOE6BT01T20101230
This notion that the concepts of obscenity and decency are somehow driven by the church are easily disproven. There are just as many places all around the world that have never harbored Christian thought that are just hard on obscenity… many even harder.
Try parading a woman down a street in Tokyo, in her bra and thong, and see how far you can get before the police pick you up. Christianity has nothing to do with it.
King, I understand what you are saying that no one is calling for an outright ban, but, the "controlling the images" is the undercurrent that leads to surpresion and people start dictating what is good and bad"
But the calls are for "Image Diversity." In other words, AA women would like to see themselves portrayed not just as mammy types and music video booty girls. They are asking for a more diverse representation that includes a greater range of humanity. I have a hard time finding fault in that.
As has been said, I don't think the argument is being made to destroy the dances, just to use them with some selection and discretion.
"Im surprised you would give Kiwi's demaning definition of what I brought in a pass .He sees black women shaking their booties, I see black women expresing their culture."
If you perceive AA women's expression of their culture as shaking their booties then I cannot see that there is much disagreement between yourself and Kiwi's statement on this point.
on Sat Feb 1st 2014 at 07:06:32 abagond
@ B.R. @ Legion: Comments deleted for insulting language.
@ Eco
Not circular reasoning but a vicious circle. Racist acts strengthen racist beliefs which lead to racist acts and so on. Attempts to break out of the circle lead to a white backlash.
Christian religion was first used as an excuse for slavery and genocide. That was a double-edged sword (it was not What Jesus Would Do) blunted by many blacks and natives converting to Christianity. By the late 1600s the excuse shifted from religion to race, becoming scientific racism by the 1800s, cultural racism by the late 1900s.
There is no need to talk about the Mists o' Time when the American government has signed, like, actual treaties with Indian nations. Uphold the treaties or renegotiate them under UN arbitration. White Americans pride their country in being a nation of laws. Maybe they could act like it instead of being a rapacious power machine.
As to "burden of proof", it belongs to those who make amazing claims, like whites who talk about a racism that suddenly vanished, poof like magic, after hundreds of years of going strong, who believe in fairy tales like the Bootstrap Myth.
If American whites say racism is dead while blacks say it still goes on, then, given American history, any reasonable person would believe blacks over whites, at least provisionally. But you do the opposite, dressing up your pro-white bias in bogus objectivity.
Nerdy girl, do you work in the meat packing industry? Because you butchered my positiotion like you are cutting a flank steak
When did virginity come into my argument? Girls in Brazil dance and wear smaller bikinis than where you are, and they are virgins…my whole point is being exposed to sensuality doesnt affect sexual behavior
Where were you when I defended tap? Did any one actualy read the list I brought in? If people are going to debate me on this, you have face the real arguments I brought in…not make up what you want me to be saying
there are christian, muslim, political , various decades, the samba ban in lebenon was recent and i slam dunked the african argument so hard, its just amazing to see the denial.
I specified the sensuality and national preferance were innate to Brazil, where did I ever say black women specificly
you are a hack butcher
King, my absolute point, and the list i brought in proves it, yes, there are the taliban and al quaeda banning music all together. and other political agendas, various religions
i specificly stated western thought related to how it filters down to western thought today, but, i also included all these other non christian entities
what you have to ask your self, King, why does afro diasporic culture receive the brunt of this represion? that is the bigger picture im trying to show.this year its booty shaking, in decades past it was jazz dancing fully clothed, in brazil afoxes and candomble are violently repressed.
tap was never banned, but a stigma was put on it that it has never recovered from, no one had the courage to stand up and defend it..only decades later, Wynton marsalis helped us understand the value of armstrong after he had been raked over the coals and called uncle tom
by the way, i stated there are two anomolies outside the afro diaspora that use pelvic thrusts, belly dancing and tahitian dancing. just for my education , id like to know of others if you know
my point being, the Afro diasporic cultures have huge variations and evolutions far out distancing any other cultures as far as pelvic thrusts being involved in part of the expresion…for those twisting my points, i have always said the african dance culture, passed down from the ancient Africans had total body immersion, working all fulcrums of the body..how much more can i stress that now so people will get my point…and i respect so much these lessons and gifts that the ancient Africans past to us…are there Africans today that regect that? of course, there are Islamic and christian africans
and, im not saying ancient africans put beyonce on the box and did twerking moves. there are tremendous evolutions and ebbs and flows. studying the various expresions of these ancient messeges and also how they were simultaneously repressed is the only way to see how these ancient gifts have been regected , repressed , abused, copied, abherated, and because of the sheer force and power that it represents, ends up dominating the foundations in the Americas where ever the people who were brought in slavery from africa in great numbers , also brought their cultures…
Buddhuu, this thread is talking about a subject that falls under music, To listen to an amateur like yourself try to patronise me about what the music business is about, and what manipulations they use , forces my to remind you that i have more experiance as a player or a booker of music events more than anyone on here
way more than just playing funk in pop groups, which i have done. half the people i worked with in new york all have huge resumes working in the business, very few combine knowledge of bebop, funk, 4 claves, samba, and have exstensive work in the feild if dance, from jazz, tap, modern, cuban, brazilian
yes, i am arrogant and have a big ego, and i can back it up, im very happy to have it to deal with amateur musicians like yourself who never really challenged yourself on your instrument
the amount of americans who can play an authentic samba is so small its pitiful, Espeanza being a huge exception…not only have i paid the dues to try to atain that knowledge , i also work with authentic samba passistas in Brazil…did somebody on here say its fine to just keep it in brazil? that insults my intelligence since ive booked engagements in new york and los angeles using samba passistas, another closed minded arrogance i have to put up with on here
and , in my business, as a player, and i am a player, not a funk back up musician, talk is cheap, bnring it to the bandstand…and i am a seriopus profesional still active today and competitive which means i beleive in every fiber of my body that i can take my music and the great musicians i know in the various cities and get on the stage and blow anybodiy elses group or mtheir mother father or step father out of the water…and you dont survive in the music business without self understanding of what you bring to the table and the ability to back patronising ignorance
(www.youtube.con/91849) this is my youtube channal this my work, you can google "andrew scott potter cd" and see various pages to prove my credibility including "the encyclipedia of jazz" jazz that has my resume up until 10 years ago
where is your work or your step father?
i bring my arguments to the table with credibility , unlike most people here including your self and there is nothing worse thasn a patronising arrogant amateur musician
meaning "back patronising ignorance off"
and funny people on here dont care about credibility and experiance anyway, costantly said that…why are some of the more ridiculous statements on here, about music , its history and dance coming from across the atlantic and down under?
I think it is pretty reasonable to assume that you are referring to black women in general. Otherwise, why do you keep on referring to 'Afro diasporic culture' and also linking to videos of people dancing in Kenya, Tanzania etc.
It seems to me that you are more concerned with defending your right to titillated at the beach than the right of young women to be looked at in a non-objectifying manner.
By the way, of course grown women have the right to dance the way they please. As Ebonymonroe mentioned, the point is that it is inappropriate for young GIRLS to dance in a suggestive manner.
@ B. R
I watched a few vids on your channel, and yeah – really fantastic music. I really liked this one in particular: (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9l7bxxNQdYA&list=UU-pd9IT71oivlEcSw5o3m9A)
However: the fact that you are a talented musician does not give you the right to dictate to others about they are culturally represented.
*about HOW they are culturally represented.
Apologies for typos/errors.
B.R., you are delusional.
I have actually come to discern a core of fair debatable points in your writings, but they are are so deeply buried under irrational rambling…
You assume so much about people you don't know, their politics, their ethics, their talents, and you spew these assumptions as put-downs to try to elevate yourself to oracular heights.
You have comments deleted for insulting language and those that remain are still littered with demeaning epithets: chump, butcher.
You misrepresent the arguments that are presented here. Reading through, there is very little here that seems to be based on sexual repression or prudery. No one seems to be trying to sanitise art, music or dance.
What is being singled out for suspicion is a money-spinning parody of the forms you love. IMO, there is very little genuine Afro-influence in what Beyonce does beyond what she and her machine have extracted and distilled in order to produce corporate product. The impression I get (as someone who doesn't know her or her husband beyond what is in the public domain) is that she doesn't care about the substance or the history or the culture or the art. As Abagond said, they are all about the money.
I'm not overly keen on the idea of kids below the age of consent having people like Beyonce as role models. I'm not keen on seeing little kids doing dances that are derived from styles and genres that feature suggestive moves. That's not because there is anything inherently wrong in those styles of dancing, but because people are quick to see what they want to see. Some might well see young people who appear to be displaying active and willing sexuality. The reason for an age of consent is to minimise exploitation of young people who are vulnerable due to immaturity and inexperience. Maybe kids learning the GENUINE real deal in the context of their culture is ok, but in American mass media context, where exploitation is a major landscape feature?
The dance styles in question are not encountered here in the cultural context in which you are immersed and which you love. The dancing we see in R&B and hip hop videos is married to images and lyrics that often promote materialism, ruthlessness, violence, domestic violence, sexualisation and exploitation of women.
You imply that I am some kind of fake musician, even though I have never made any claims to musical talent! What beats me is that the dance seen in Beyonce's (and others') videos is clever, talented – but also superficial, calculated and bogus. It is fake, a mockery of the stuff you love, but you continue to defend it in your rabid fashion.
You misapprehend what people are saying to you.
And, for the record, like wordynerdygirl, I have seen your videos – in fact I had seen some before this discussion began as I recall you positing a link to a video featuring you and your son some time ago.
The music is very fine, and I have great respect for your art. But all that makes you is a fine musician. Musical talent doesn't make you right all the time. In fact, the finest guitarist I know, though a nice guy, is totally full of sh|t.
I see he skipped my questions. He thinks because he's a musician he knows about Black life. You can play instruments, but Black commenters, as well as White commenters who are versed in the exploitation of Blacks and women, have highlighted how much you don't know about Black oppression. Actually Buddhuu and wordynerdygirl grasped what we were saying early on, it doesn't take being a musician, it takes a knowledge about some of the exploitation the Black community contends with. I see you took the time to insult my stepdad for no reason, as always. You've now made pretty disrespectful statements about my mum, my dad and my stepdad, even though we've been very respectful about you randomly throwing your wife's entire autobiography in an attempt to legitimise yourself. I could get fed up and curse you out, but I'm not going to rise to the occasion; I don't want to be ignorant like you. But you still haven't answered my questions
1. BR, do you wear a thong on the beach?
2. Do most men wear a thong on the beach in Brazil?
Lol @The Ohio Players and Prince being nothing but Pop. That's right BR, you just spit in the faces of Black musicians who innovated the music and culture you claim to respect so much, despite coming up against hurdle after hurdle as musicians who are actually Black. My stepdad's team was with a man named Trevor Nelson. The team went on to create the first Black music show in the UK called "The Lick," its popularity resulted in the UK's first Black music channel, "MTV Base." But before they left, when they were in charge, they made sure to promote artists who weren't selling out because as Black men, that's something they would understand and you don't. This guy's hilarious.
+artists like Lauryn Hill and India Arie over the Beyonces and 50 cents.
Thanks buddhuu
@Ebonymonroe:
Sounds like your stepdad was part of a bunch of cool people. 🙂
King, my absolute point, and the list i brought in proves it, yes, there are the taliban and al quaeda banning music all together. and other political agendas, various religions."
Not just religions though. Mao banned certain types of music, as did Hitler, and I believe Stalin did also (I'll have to check that one again). And in places where enforced Atheism regained supreme for decades, there still was an enforced concept of obscenity and decency. In the Soviet Union there was no fantastic and freeing sexual revolution achieved by casting of all religion. Women did not start walking around topless or bottomless in the Russian summers. Dresses did not suddenly get shorter, necklines did not suddenly plunge lower. Look how the post revolutionary Maoists dressed in China. Would you call that sexy? The removal of religion is not the answer. It does not produce some kind of sexual freedom, as many erroneously assume.
My point is that it goes deeper than the usual charge that it's all about religion, or puritans, or some other such nonsense. The fact is that almost nobody really want a world were "sexual repression" is not enforced every day!
The kind of "freedom" you are talking about only sounds like freedom when you assume that the sensualist are all beautiful, young, and shapely girls. But clearly that's not what most of the world looks like.
Would you be as anxious to live in a culture where fat, bald, pasty, 55-year old men who started feeling "sensual" could strip off their clothing down to a fig leaf and begin thrusting their pasty pelvises at passers by? Would you like to live in a world where withered and pendulous old women could walk the streets topless?
Here is an experiment for you. Get away from the beach and the 'bikini crowd.' Go stand in another part of town and just watch normal people milling around. Ask yourself, "Do I really want to see these people with their clothes off?!" The answer is NO. Unfettered sensuality only sounds good when you imagine the world to be a gigantic strip club, where only the fit and beautiful are not sexually "repressed." But in reality nobody wants to live in a world where their retired neighbor can get some kind of secual urge, and go out on the sidewalk naked swinging his hips to the Captain and Tennille CD in his boom box.
LOL. Heaven help us if that actually did happen!
^ To recap.
I don't want to see women of my mother's generation doing sensual dances
BECAUSE IT GROSSES ME OUT!
I don't want to see the lady at the dry cleaners who thinks she's hot but really isn't getting up on the counter and doing pelvic thrusts.
I don't want to see my boss gyrating his hip in a circular motion
I don't want to see my fat barber naked
I don't want to see a six year old girl doing sexual dances
BECAUSE IT GROSSES/CREEPS ME OUT!
I think most people around the world are like this.
That is why it makes sense to FIRST establish that a person is actually attracted to YOU and then, (and only then) go somewhere private where the two of you can be "sensual" away from everybody else.
Because I also don't want to watch people who I am not attracted having sex!
BECAUSE THAT TOO GROSSES ME OUT!
There… you now have a non-religious, working definite of the social need for "modesty."
Agreed WordyNerdy,… agreed!
Lmao. King, love that. That hypotheical sensual revolution you presented is spot on.
@buddhuu
Yeah he did, but it was when I was just a kid and it was years before he met my mum, so I didn't meet a single soul. Lol
@BR
You keep saying no one has debunked the mountains of evidence you've brought in, but we all have. Every point you've brought to the table has been addressed. You just keep skipping our responses to continue saying the same thing you said before that was already addressed. If we were all in person, you'd pretty much just be talking over us.
1. I've addressed your points on Jazz. You have to put it into context, Elvis (although he did Black music) was a White performer, and the biggest of his time. But he was still censored because of the era. Jazz was up against Jim Crow era and a time when anything secular was considered devil worship, across all races. Michael jackson and Prince were the biggest artists of the 80's, but when Hip hop came in they began to be pushed to the side, because it was a new era, a new generation. 18-25 year olds are not not tap dancing because they think it's selling out in 2014, it's because it's not a part of their generation. That stigma is a thing of the past and was a part of a completely different era for African Americans during civil rights. You have to put it into the context of centres of Jazz in America like the cotton club, where Blacks weren't allowed to attend. Even Miles Davis said he refused to smile while playing and that he hated how performers like Louis presented themselves. But you can't claim miles stomped Jazz out. The jazz age came and went, as did the next, tap has been replaced with stomping and Black college sorority dance. Tap is not popular not because Black people are militant rhetoric puppets but because it's 2014, a new era.
2. Twerkin is not a traditional African dance, it's a contemporary dance that has come about due to raunch culture. The mapouka is the traditional dance. So you can't campaign for it under the umbrella of African culture preservation, you'd have to speak about it on the basis of pro s-xual revolution and nudity.
3. Why did you insult buddhuu? Why are you saying he can't talk about Black exploitation because you believe he doesn't have as much musical experience as you? That doesn't have anything to do with that. This is about oppression not musicianship. When it comes to my stepdad I could bring up Roy Ayers, Nina Simone (when she lived in Europe), I could bring up Maze, but this has nothing to do with musical experience. That's what you're not getting.
4. Wordynerdygirl is right, you have basically projected the idea that if Black women were left to their own devices and not influenced by religion and politics, we'd all walk around nude and twerk.
Don't you understand how offensive that is?
Do you wear a thong on the beach?
Do most of the men on the beach wear thongs in Brazil?
on Sat Feb 1st 2014 at 17:10:54 Sharina
I don't doubt you were about to take a general reading within your scope, but the thing about it is that holding on to the idea that because one shares a skin tone with an individual that they "know "them is a bit ridiculous because people are so different and will likely surprise you; though in these situations most people overlook that even with sharing skin tones and privy to certain thoughts. You will be surprised how much you are still not privy to. People don't divulge everything. Not saying they do feel guilt because they very well might not, but I am saying they don't tell people every single feeling or thought.
I've sensed a lot of resentment from White people over the necessity of guilt being imposed on them throughout my generation.
on Sat Feb 1st 2014 at 18:54:08 Kiwi
Look how the post revolutionary Maoists dressed in China. Would you call that sexy?
I snorted when I read this. Sexy Mao suits? LOL! Besides, B. R. will just cry communism. Of course they can't be sexy.
on Sun Feb 2nd 2014 at 11:39:11 B. R.
Abagond, people are mentioning communism, was that ban only meant for me, because i have a lot to say about that
King, too bad you arnt on the beaches down here, because you would see women of all ages in two peice bikinis, you will see pregnant women, you will see women of all ages , and you will see women of all sizes , and it is the most liberating feeling to really be able to see the wonderful female body in all its shapes , sizes , colors. this actualy promotes a deep feeling of connection and respect, because it isnt a strip club , its natural, public, with families, kids
Few american men get to really understand the female body out side of their playboy maigizines and current girl freinds or spouses, we have been denied, unless their profesion puts them in an inside contact, like me with Louis falco , with open nude co ed dressing rooms that i as the accompanying musician , got to see..beleive, that set me straight on the power of sensuality, because , king, Im here to say its no less than the cure for so many mental ruts and depresions…being in a sensual atmosphere goes farther than any psychiatrist could to get me to let go of the logic brain bombarding me with all the hubris of the past
The problem is, king, you are trapped in your own american experiance point of referance, that is why you made the post you did , not accounting for the fact women of all ages wear bikinis openly on the beach, they may not hike them up over the hips like the young women, but their wonderful bodies are on display for me to understand exactly what wemen really look like, and it is wonderful and i respect women more for that and their openess to say here i am and this is what i look like…and you expresion of how that could gross you out only reveals your own represion
"represion", "uptight" "you dont know your culture" those really are the most offensive insults ever thrown on this blog
Buddhuu, first kudos to you at all for picking up an instrument at all and trying to play it…the fact that you would think that saying ive been in the music business for 45 years more than you is bragging, shows why you are an amateur, saying ive been in the music business that long really means ive been shat on and crawled on the underbelly longer than you. it means that bucking the comercial system and putting my vision and work on my own lable, means i have to bang up against the corporate machinery like a 100 mile car accident dying a thousand paul walker deaths every few years…its like a war, you dont die physicaly unless you buckle under the preasure and commit suicide or over dose, but you die mentaly and emotionaly, but if you are strong enough your spirit survives…yes constantly i do book myself in major markets, get on billboard charts and get air play, which is only a testimony to how absolutly commited i am to getting my vision out against impossible odds, and im not selling any product on here…im damanding respect for my experiance credibility
and booking engagements with passistas, is only a part of what i do, and let me tell you the descrimination i see for booking black women dancing their culture clothed or unclothed is beyond ridiculous..its painful and breaks the heart…in miami or florianopolis, we have done engagements that knocked the audiences out and people were loving it, only to get a covered racist responce to deny us employment…the van dyke did it to us in miami thery just closed…im happy
buddhuu, beyonce has done clips with destinies child where they wer shooting in various referances to black american dances, that, i, who know this background recognised and was entertained by it…this is what you, wordy, and kiwi are missing by not having an understanding of the culture…i recognise what you are saying about the comercial filter, but most of you are pop culturists, not an insult , but you are prisoners to the drek they serve up, you are only complaining about prison food…wordy, i have painfully made it clear the black women shaking their asses is not my focus at all, im sorry you missed that and thanks for checking my youtubes
on Sun Feb 2nd 2014 at 11:46:33 abagond
"I didn't think I was any more insulting to B.R. than you were in the Gratuitous Obama pic thread. I dismissed him as a weirdo, in response to something weird he said. You dismissed him as a "white man". Who was more valid in their point, me or you?
Of course, you think it's you."
I have restored your comment.
"Dismissing him as a 'white man'" is B.R.'s butthurt characterization of what I said. My "white man" comments were advancing a serious argument: that he was excusing Americans killing Pakistani civilians because he is an anti-Asian racist. Your "weirdo" comment was pretty much just name-calling.
Here is your "weirdo" comment:
something for Buddhuu never did with jazz, and for sure legion
Um, right. Because you've been following me around since I was born, correct? You fucking weirdo.
Learn how to write a goddamn paragraph.
Here are my "white man" comments:
Comment #1:
"hey Abagond, if my truth is bugging you so much, just politly ask me to leave, Ill be happy to"
"Truth" was not the word I had in mind. More like "bad moral reasoning". What goes on in Mali does not even begin to excuse killing women and children in Pakistan. Not even close. That you can even think that is pretty disturbing – but not surprising coming from a White man.
" how ironic you would lable me that, the truth is, you never heard a white man come from where Im coming from in your life..you cant handle it…"
On this issue you sound like Archie Bunker. Mosh is right when he calls you a jingoist.
To put it another way, on Pillar I issues you do not sound like most White American men, but on Pillar III issues, like this one, you do.
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2013/11/02/the-three-pillars-of-american-white-supremacy/
"you tired fables and cookie jar childs stories hardly can deal with the complexities and in depth reality that is the real truth"
I use those because people like you want to make it all complex to avoid facing up to the moral issue. Which is what you are doing now.
I knew exactly what Mosh meant when he called Pakistan peaceful, but you are missing the point to "win" the argument.
"I dont think America isnt dirty at all, Im more than willing to look at the dirt, and can admit it,"
Ha! Go on and tell yourself that. I have seen little proof of it.
You can talk about communist attitudes towards black culture, like in the censorship of jazz, but not otherwise.
monroe, i have no disrespect at all for your step dad, i respect very much his bacground, could you send me his radio contact so i can send him my new cd?
roy ayers is a jazz knowledgeble musician, but, i deduct your step dad played with him in his jazz funk days, nothing wrong with that , but my point is, my tragectory outside of the pop world that i also am in, my son will be releasing his cd soon that co produced with slamming hip hop funk grooves…and we will bangup against the corporat machinery in what im sure will be his baptism of a thousand paul walker deaths..its not his first cd, but this is his more comercial attempt…ppor guy doesnt know his wonderful brazilian mangue beat influences are going to be the death ring for him in the corporate market, but getting back to my point, its all the things im engaged with outside of the pop realm that give me the insights, and if your step dad and you, buddhuu, can play "seven steps to heaven' a great up tempo be bop number written for miles davis by a fantastic brit musician, Victor Feldman, like i played with some musicians the other night at a club, that left me in a state of trancendation so powerful i couldnt even talk, then id like your contacts
also, let me say this about my challenge to you both…i just paraphrased exactly what the great tap dancer , Honi Coles , described about the ethic in real tap dancing, he said the great tap dancers would gather and challenge each other to go in the circle and out do the other, the object was to blow them out of the water…interesting, some of the passistas ive been working with , were "Rainhasde Carnival" in our city, and that means they went on stage and tried to cut the other passisat to death, and , this is blatent in the jazz world where musicians would have tenor battles, drum battles, as part of the ritual competition to push the expresion as far as possible…also , very important point, using improvisation, which 90 percent of my dance presentations use in hip hop and samba, break dancing being another form using the same cutting logic, get in the middle and show you have the heaviest moves on the floor..this is in stark contrast to the corporate pop world that is manipulated at every step, as you noted buddhuu…improvisation is in many cultures, but in the hands of the Afro diaspora, it takes on powerful meanings, and in these diverse idioms, it manifests in challenging the other artists to push the expresions to the highest leval and innovate new ways to epress, which is also how new afro diasporic cultures emerge.
king , about your referances to red flag ideologies and no one took their clothes off after wards, you are missing my points big time, the nudity and sensuality im talking about, as i said, are innate to brazil, and afro diasporic culture mixed in , is only put through that filter to arrive at passistas in bare booty costumes , which i have said is what makes it one of the most exiting, sensual and dificicult dances in the world..ther Afro diasporic principles, I have clarified this are not pushing the nudity, this is the brazilian advanced concepts…i see there are no takers to anyone accepting the prime time brazilian images i brought in
Monroe, samba is a great example that origins and roots come from samba de roda, samba de cabocolo, and other expresions and evolved to the state of the passistas and their sensual costumes and dancing at speeds never done before…im sorry "devil worship" in no way can explain the repressive new york times article , gleefully anouncing their will be no more of those "sexualised" dances in hotels, dance halls and on the street…i really hope you check out the other links and see a huge pattern existing
, abagond, ive kicked in on plenty of great arguments against racists, from america, i know only too well now that all the hogwash about fighting for democracy was bs, and, my neice and her Islamic Afghanistan grandfather and indian grandmother might haver a say in how they feel about pakistan and the pakistan, india, afghasnistan triangle and its complex dynamic, feeling for what they might think , does that make me anti east asian
archie bunker? he is from queens from where you came from, im from manhattan, get it straight , figures a guy from queens would dismiss a new york times article about nour new york history
look everybody, in respect to the black women on this blog , who have argued passionatly for what they beleive in about twerking, i am going to cease and desiste battling them about that, which doesnt mean i agree, but , i am willing , after i have said exactly i want to say, to step back and see how twerking actualy plays out in the social cultural dynamic
i apreciete the diologue, no matter what you feel about what i have said, i at least hope you check out the actual true information i have brought in…abagond, i am immensly grateful you gave me a chance to colaborate on writing the post on miles davis…immnot leaving this blog, this isnt an exit, i am stepping back to see how this plays out in real life
on Sun Feb 2nd 2014 at 14:50:49 Ebonymonroe
You didn't answer anything put to you BR.
You were not able to understand my point about Jazz's historical context and why tap is simply not in in 2014 for young people. So the stigma surrounding it decades ago cannot be compared with establishments rejecting nude dancers you work with, today.
You have not been able to admit that twerkin has been shown to be very contemporary, so campaigning for it, as opposed to the much more tame Mapouka, is not traditional Afro diasporic culture preservation, as you initially claimed.
You have not been able to understand that telling myself, Buddhuu and everyone else what Black people you've worked with still does not give you more understanding about Black exploitation and oppression in media.
And with the historical fact that original African society was very conservative being presented here, you have not been able to understand your argument about tying modern day liberal Brazilian life to old African life, was undone posts and posts ago. This was about you campaigning about your opinion that the modern day Brazilian way of life is, in your opinion, the best. But in the context of this thread and what it was about, since traditional African life and dance was nothing like the liberal nude and twerkin Brazil of today, it does not belong here in this thread and it never did. But you thought it did as you believed twerkin and liberal sensuality was original African culture, but now we've discovered that's not true, so on traditional African culture and Black oppression, you've been shown to know very little relating to this debate throughout the thread, despite all the Black people you've worked with, and all the Black women you've seen nude.
Sadly, I don't think you realise it.
You have also not been able to answer my questions . . .
Do most men on the beach in Brazil wear thongs?
My stepdad is retired, and Trevor Nelson has gone to BBC radio, where they only play Pop R&B, and if they do play Soul or Jazz artists, they have to be very well established.
on Sun Feb 2nd 2014 at 16:44:53 Randy
Saw the video. Gross. Like Toddlers and Tiaras gross. WTH is wrong with people?
Sign o the times.
on Sun Feb 2nd 2014 at 19:15:39 King
King, too bad you arnt on the beaches down here, because you would see women of all ages in two peice bikinis, you will see pregnant women, you will see women of all ages , and you will see women of all sizes."
I understand your generous and inclusive sentiments, but the fact remains, there are some people who would just be better served not to wear revealing clothing in public. Because once you get past the 'Kumbaya,' ultimately you are still left with the cottage cheese.
The courtesy of public display, of any kind, is that you are thoughtful to show only what the public wants to see, rather than imposing upon them what you wish to display, regardless of the lack of demand for it.
For me, and I think for most, the rule of keeping clothes on, and leaving intimate display to intimate occasions is both sound and respectful of the sensibilities of others. Just as you would not enjoy someone turning up their boom box volume in such a way as to force you to listen to an hour of blaring Miley Cyrus tunes, a certain lowered visual volume must also be maintained as a courtesy to others.
It's not "repression," it's simple manners and common sense of fair play.
Monroe, as i said , i wont argue with you about anything related to twerking, id like to step back and find out how this plays out in cultural society, im not backing down on my points, only i wont hassle you about it
id like to answer your question and other question that got lost in the shuffle here
first, thanks for the info on Trevor, my son's cd is right up that alley…i can find the bbc address
i would love to have worn the thong for men, i have pictures of me in a speedo at 48 that i looked real good, now i dont dont think id flatter it. When i first got to Brazil , i got out of some fasion mens catalougue, skimpy mens swim wear, i have always prided my physical apearance and after spraining my ankle in my prefered sport of youth, basketball and couldnt play after the first year in college, i started swimiming heavily and got into body surfing when i finily left the north east urban cold of new york and chicago, and got to brazil
i wore it a couple of times on the beach, but noticed once that when a foreighner walked down the beach,in a thong bikini, as he passed crowds of men, great laughter passed, so, here is a case where social preasure pursuaded me not to pursue skimpy mens swim wear, which proves my beach points, nothing to do with twerking. Women fell preasure to not wear thong bikinis, exactly the way i did. i would love nothing more than to prance around women in string bikinis with mine on
to someone else, yes i would let my daughter dance these dances , i am extremy liberal with dancing…would you let your daughter slow drag with a dude where she could feel the erection of a man? could have here booty felt up?
Constantly, i absolutly , catagoricly am not selling product on here, and that is the rule…i hawk records for a living, if i was hawking product here, you would know and it would be forbiden
King, im somewhat disheartened that you thought I was refering to sexy beach wear when reffering links to jazz dancing and playing being repressed in countries with red flag ideologies along with the other links that showed variious represions of Afro diasporic cultures in various countries. The banning to samba in Lebenon was based on that, and it was diapors, not even close to the real passista costume
did i miscommunicate this? Because what is really truth about that is exactly what you refered to, jazz dancing was banned for sexualised dancing and the playing, from China to the Soviet Union, definitly Stalin, Poland, Checkoslavacia, etcI have to look up Cuba, something hapened there, i think they banned jazz saxophone
and, afterwards in those countries, jazz florished. It is not lost on me, that i can mount the bandstand and play jazz and listen anytime and anywhere, but, people in those situations were actualy repressed from listening and playing, and could have been taken to jail if caught…amazingly people snuck around, listened to the voice of America really low on their radios, and tried to play it behind closed doors…now there are jazz festivals in all these coutries…
so this really has to do with my question"can you hum a wayne shortere song?", because, if you dont love jazz, this represion may have very little impact or impresion on you, where its fightening ominous and scary to me
id like to ask you a couple of point blank questions, again this isnt related to twerking at all so with your permision , id like to ask you these things:
1. Do you recognise all those links i brought in as the represion of Afro diasporic cultures?
2. Im actualy wondering now if you might agree with Kiwi that those Brazilian girls I brought in doing baile funk, are just black women shaking their booties.
Do you agree with that, or do you recognise it as Afro diasporic culture and a "patrimonio culttural " of Rio de Janeiro?
Legion, take it from a pro, i have spent decades having to size up musicians how much they know or dont know, i can tell in 16 bars if its going to be along night with the beat sagging in the middle, I have to be able to talk with someone on the phone and figure out if they can cut it or not…I dont know anything, you revealed yourself….maybe at one point you even took piano lessons, but, i dont think you are a pro or ever were, please enlighten me if you were
Like i said, im not going to argue anymore about twerking, out of respect to the black women on here concerned about it, im happy to answer any questions that dont relate to that at all,and if i think it could lead me into an argument about it that conflicts with the twerking debate, ill say that im afraid it will take me in that direction
King, im somewhat disheartened that you thought I was refering to sexy beach wear when reffering links to jazz dancing and playing being repressed in countries with red flag ideologies along with the other links that showed variious represions of Afro diasporic cultures in various countries. The banning to samba in Lebenon was based on that, and it was diapors, not even close to the real passista costume.
I agree with you that Afro diasporic culture and art have been traditionally suppressed. Since I do not disagree with that part of your argument I have not addressed it.
King, I just got back from the beach, and remembering this discusion with you, i especialy took note of all ages and sizes that wore bikinis, and its just incredible…see, you are speaking from your social perspective of what is respectable…its not the same here…and someone kept saying here its as though im the one having the big fun…believe me, the women love their sensuality more than i do, and, there were very large women in revealing bikinis, i mean large that would be ridiculed in the usa…i know its hard for you to imagine it, but its just basiic truth, brazil is advanced in its concepts of women being free to be in a wonderful sensual state on the beach wearing very little clothing…they are so natrural, all sizes, all colors, ages…i saw mothers going into the water with 20 something daughters both wearing string bikinis…its amazing to note a lot of women who are older look wonderful, and its amazing, the big women, past just really curvy, actualy look more sensual than American society would ever give them a chance…
i really wish you could see it because my words wont mean anything
thanks , King
But how would you know if women want to walk around in thongs if you're not a woman?
How can you be sure women in Brazil are liberating themselves and not actually conforming?
If Brazil's open minded nature towards nudity was about liberation, why is it exclusive to women? Why would something that liberates the people be exclusive to one gender if it's really liberation?
It's a loud coincidence that if it's about "sensual liberation," why the gender that has always been exploited through hypers-xualization and nudity would be the only gender given given the leeway to be hypers-xual and nude is quite interesting, indeed.
If you're so intent on liberation, why don't you disregard how people respond and live what you preach by wearing a thong yourself? Why would you protest for women over and over, and live for it, but sit back when it comes to your own nudity?
Isn't that hypocrisy?
Once again, Jazz was forbidden in a completely different landscape. The Jim Crow, segregation, anti secular music era. That simply cannot be compared with establishments rejecting booking a bunch a nude (or mostly nude) booty dancing in their establishment for entertainment. There would be complaints. They're not being racist, or anti Afro diasporic culturalists. They just don't want a bunch of nude women shaking their bottoms in front of customers in their place of business. These nude dances are quite recent to these parts of the Afro diaspora, as is raunch culture to the world. So it's not anti African, it's anti raunch. You'd do well to put things into context rather than seeing this as an anti Black thing. People are anti Miley Cyrus and she's White.
R&B, Hip hop, Funk, Disco. Every one of these anti Black genres have been embraced and dominated in their era, so much so that the most popular White artists have been doing Black music over the last three decades or so.
Send the tape to Trevor, you never know.
^^^ (Correction)
*Everyone of these Black genres have been embraced and dominated in their era.
King, I just got back from the beach, and remembering this discusion with you, i especialy took note of all ages and sizes that wore bikinis, and its just incredible…see, you are speaking from your social perspective of what is respectable…its not the same here…"
Then we have come full circle.
My statement above said:
Everyone "speaks from their own social perspective," it is the very nature of experiential context. And these perspectives are different in different parts of the world. The Black American perspective is not "uptight" or "repressed" because it is different (sexually) from your social perspective where you are. It is useless to try and judge a call for a image revision in the U.S. culture from the arbitrary standard of the preferences within your own adopted culture.
Ebonymoroe, first, thanks about Trevor, it would be a cd pressed and packedged
The women control this more than the men down here..they run it, they compete with each other, we men are just innocent bystanders, watching them utdue each other trying to wear bikinis that go beyond just swim wear into provoking, they want to be seen…i wish you could have been there today to see what i mean
i absolutly love your idea of trying to break the stigma of what men should wear, and, they actualy wore skimpy speedos, but now, they adopted the stupid styles of bermudas from usa surf life…i never said brazil was perfect, and if i was younger, i wish i could lead the charge, but again, it should come from brazilian men, they would never accept a gringo trying to break the barriours
if you are reffering to the cases i was talking about, with me trying to book, miami was with clothes, it had nothing to do with what was worn, it was straight up prejudice, the other case, we had played the open air space next to this restaurant and stopped the whole area, people gathered in a big way, it was a success, and when i tried to book it there, the owners looked at each other and said in a way they think i wouldnt catch "he wants to bring samba dancers in" in an exagerated sarcasim with eye rolling…
And, to add to that, while many Black Brazilian women do enjoy that and "that" being the representation of their culture, the Brazilian woman who did that post sounds as though she may enjoy a greater diversity and maybe even more modesty in representations of Black Brazilian women. I'm from the UK, other women posters are from the US, so this is an issue that extends beyond the US for many Black women. I have also heard Latinas complain about their perception that they're often hypers-xualised in the media. Ultimately, this is something women contend with. While many women enjoy it, at that's their free will, the female chauvanist pig era and the misogyny of cultures all over the globe has often dehumanised women through these means, not liberated as has been suggested. But when it comes to Black women, historically and at present, the issue has always been heightened.
ok king, ill think about what you said, actualy your polite manner helped me to step back and say im not going to argue about twerking anymore, along with my respect for the black women on here discussing this issue
Ebonymonroe, i really dont understand your logic about the new york times article from the early century, and lets agree to disagree, there are many more links there to prove my point of Afro diasporic cultural represion, from various other decades and countries and creeds and religions..i didnt even haflway bring in the huge amount of links of the church repressing jazz dancing in the usa
can i ask you if you think those links represent afro diasporic cultural represions ? I promice im suspending my judgement about twerking in this…lets just refer to those links
If you believe they'll accept you campaigning for Black Brazilian women and the nuances of their liberal culture, I'm sure they would accept you doing the same for men.
Why do you think women have always competed with eachother in ways that just happen to satisfy the male gaze. The idea of us competing academically, in sports, or what have you, has always been a strange idea. Instead we compete in nudity, sensuality and s-xuality. What you think is women's progression is really just conformity.
I'm surprised people are averted to Samba dancers, what with the popularity of shows like "Dancing with the stars." How does Samba differ from South American dances like Salsa? I shall have to research Samba now, you've got me intrigued.
Ebonymonroe, Ana is free to feel anyway she wants she also is a confessed meteleiro with not much affinity for Salvador Afro Bahian culture and i would never let her tell a black American what they could or could not get out of Salvador..i agree with some things she sais and disagree with others. she is maried to a white Ameican who has no real affinity with Afro Bahian culture alos, and , like you said , women have a freedom to express themselves the way they want…i dont really see any preasure for women to conform to wearing beyond vicotoria secret style bikinis…and, i dont really see any indication in the media or other means of communication that indicate there is any protest about it
let me clarify, there are beaches that are more sensual than others, my beach is more sensual…Ana lives in Rio where there is a huge sensuality in the beach life, ,more northeast its a little less but still more than the usa
its just a huge non issue down here, i wish you could see it for yourself, it would speak more than i ever could
No, I wasn't referring to the article you posted, but my take on the context of race and music during the Jazz age, in America. Also, as far as the church, during the first half of the century every kind of secular music was repressed, country, Rock n roll, Rock, and Jazz. It was the way it was.
My perspective now is that they've gone from repressing Afro diasporic music, to only allowing the most negative, sensational, vulgar, and violent representations of Blacks, and the Black music artists who conform to this, into the mainstream.
We agree about Afro diasporic culture being oppressed, but in a modern context we see it from different angles. You embrace Black music as a whole and champion it, while I reject the new version of cooning that I see being projected as Blackness, because to me, it's not Blackness, but a cartoon version of Blackness that the mainstream embrace.
I'm very pro sensuality and s-xuality myself, in the right context. It's a big part of my make-up as a woman, so I don't consider myself prudish in the slightest.
What I speak of extends beyond Brazil into areas about women. It would be impossible for me to cover all of that in a post. Unless you're familiar with women's studies, as the issues at hand for women, as a minority group; the pressure of s-xualization upon women and the trajectory of conformity of women, to male ideas of the value of womahood, would go over your head, as it relates to your "telling" description of women competing with one another to be the most provocative in dance and attire. And why that is not the liberty you interpret it as, but displays of regressive conformity. Perhaps you would have to study feminism and a book like "Female chauvanist pigs."
Take, for instance, the conformity of many Black artists to being as violent and as hypers-xual as possible to cross-over into mainstream success, due to this cartoon image of Black people being the most popular. Like, Black men in Hip hop embodying the "Birth of a nation" images of Black masculinity, and Black women embodying the Black Jezebel stereotypes. It's the same for women absorbing the most popular and celebrated stereotypes of the worth of girlhood and womanhood and then acting them out, whether they're degrading and regressive or not.
Im more agreement than you think, but, there artre certain areas we disagree, but, i do perceive when its the media manipulation and the actual culture…
im very aware of minstrel shows, including mick jagger, which you may not agree with that…there are many fault lines of disagreement, even in the black community…or which rapper really is minstrel and which is not, but, the media is not tobe trusted, i would say that
i just want to say i agree 100 percent with ana , that brazilian women, in spite of the senuality, are easy…that is a wrong impresion
ive never seen ana write negative about string bikinis, and , for all i know, she sported one when she was younger or even now
i know brazilian women arnt easy because i watched my son grow up and not have an easy time at all
…meaning i agree with her brazilian women are not easy
for me it was no differant than america , in that respect,
Ebonymonroe, ill be offline for a while im happy to answer any queations when i come back on
on Sun Feb 2nd 2014 at 21:11:24 buddhuu
B.R. Once you calm down a little you make more sense, but you still have your moments of blindness.
[…]i recognise what you are saying about the comercial filter, but most of you are pop culturists, not an insult , but you are prisoners to the drek they serve up, you are only complaining about prison food…[…]
Damn it, again you make judgements about people you don't know. One of my primary musical genres is British and Irish traditional dance music. This stuff is even less commercially acceptable than jazz. You could almost count the number of people who buy it on the fingers of one finger.
My railing against the superficiality of popular music here was aimed at that genre because that genre is the topic of the post, not because I'm somehow trapped within its confines.
Please, just stop with the generalised assumptions about people you don't know. It's rude and idiotic.
"I don't really see any indication in the media or means of communication that indicate there is protest about it."
When you see Black women or men, or women and men, period, with platforms, or Black women on blogs like this, or a guy like the one you mentioned, speaking out about how he felt some parts of the culture in Brazil degrades Black women, or someone like Ana, or whoever, speaking out about this, you're hearing lines of communication protesting. You've heard it a lot from Black people, women, and possibly non Black people, but it seems you take us to task on this and interpret it as "uptight," or "militant radical feminism," or "militant Black political rhetoric," or "oppressive religion." You've heard it a lot, but you've not been able to hear our point of view about our own representations.
The great disparity of those who reject, or celebrate, "the cooning rapper images" you speak of, is due to it being absorbed as the status quo by many young Blacks, embraced and then acted out. That's why I compared it to women who conform by being as hypers-xual as possible under the guise of liberal progression, when they're really conforming to the same boxes patriarchy defined for women long ago. Many minorities could progress but there's the issue of internalising and then normalising the oppressive ideologies assigned to their group, and then regurgitating them. Like brainwashing, so to speak.
on Mon Feb 3rd 2014 at 01:44:34 King
Good Analysis Ebonymonroe, Spot on,
Again I emphasize that the push i have seen up-thread is for balance not abolition. What Black women, and even many Black men are saying, is that women do not need to be scantily-clad, sensual nymphs in order to be compelling or central.
We need more women who are smart, bold, original, and willing be different than 'hoochie mama' norm that is so often presented. Intelligent and capable is sexy, and you don't necessarily have to be shaking your rear end all the time to be "sensual."
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTFbkRhopzY)
^Just a sign of the times
on Mon Feb 3rd 2014 at 15:45:23 Ebonymonroe
Why thank-you, King
. . . By chance his girlfriend came across a needle and soon she did the same . . ..
Quite right, Ebony… quite right.
Amen. (Although I have been told that symbol doesn't stand for anything particularly good.) But we agree King, on Prince.
(I know, I know, corny, but I couldn't resist.)
on Mon Feb 3rd 2014 at 18:06:27 Sharina
(extreme Prince fan smiles)
This article kind of illustrates my feelings of beyonce (though I was never a fan of hers). I was however a huge fan of Destiny's child (the first set).
http://www.mydaily.co.uk/2013/03/18/beyonce-bow-down-new-single/
It bothers me that she talks about female empowerment, but then resorts to songs and actions that appear to be the oppossite. She really has no regard for the young females she entrances with her music. To her it really is about sells sells sells (true this could be true for most artist today).
correction opposite
on Mon Feb 3rd 2014 at 18:20:13 Omnipresent
"It seems that I was busy doin something close to nothing, but different than the day before"
@ Omnipresent
A fan of Raspberry Beret I see. 🙂
Yes – I have been introduced to Prince by the OH who over the years
on Mon Feb 3rd 2014 at 21:56:42 B. R.
King, i am all for more images of black women , that certainly isnt my position, to not have black women who represent all kinds of expresions..i brought in a fantastic list..glad Monroe likes Eperancza, she knocks me out..sings in portuguese, if you want to see her do the real samba , go to youtube and search "esperanza spalding coisa feita" , i also love her "freedom jazz dance" at the grammys with bobby mcferrin..or her stevie wonder interpretations, sheis great…carmen lundy is the real real deal also…betty carter is so special too, and very slept on by everybody, rest her soul
Ebonymonroe, as i said i wont undercut you about the the twerking, but related to brazil i will speak up…this guy who wrote the article about the bad sex images of black women in carnival, wrote a hack peice..he doesnt live in brazil, and im guessing he is a brazilian raised in the united states
he was so wrong in his depictions and i called him and his witch hunting commenteres out on it..it was a major disrespect to all black women who perform in carnival, all the incredible passistas who are the only bare booty dancers in carnival and they come from a powerful tradition in the community…the ony women he showed pictures of , who were suposed to represent all brazil, were strictly rio carnival passistas who are like the bolshoi ballet..what a total disrespect
it was tremendous misinformation, misrepresented brazil,did a tremendous disservice and railroaded the passistas
if this is the thing people are going to rally around, it is a very negative misinformed , damaging and only would lead people over the cliff
i absolutly and catagoricly am oposed to what this guy wrote
and just take a look at the links i brought in above and see how much samba has been abused , banned, and surpressed , including a recent ban in lebenon when they werent even in real costumes, they were wearing diapors..
thank gosh, samba is so big and powerful an afro diasporic culture, no represion could keep it down..it is an afro diasporic treasure,
Also, Ebonymonroe, one thing i completly agree with Ana about is, black militant political activists who come to Brazil should not tell black Brazilians how they are suposed to deal with their situation…i hope you understand that part of what she said..that was an important part of her point
I apreciete you like shared your tastes for music outside the pop realm
please dont be offended by me saying people are pop culturists, i am one myself, out side of my eclectic tastes in music, when it comes to movies , for example, i am more pop culturist than anyone here..give me an action movie with fast paced edits, quippy engish with curse words and stars i can recognise, and im in…more pop culturist than anyone
on Mon Feb 3rd 2014 at 22:50:50 mstoogood4yall
yeah beyonce has changed, I knew she was really going to be crazy when she married jay z sellout as. I liked her video for who run the world, the choreography was nice and it was funny seeing the chauvinistic trolls coming on the vid and leaving dumb comments. After destiny's child I didn't really like her, I never really could get into her and want to buy her music, I always felt tlc was better anyway. I liked the song say my name way better than bills, bills, bills.
And since beyonce has changed she's gotten more fame, and some female singers have tried to copy her by doing more provocative songs and dances but they still haven't been able to get to where beyonce is. Kelly Rowland, ciara and keri hilson have tried to sexualize themselves with provocative songs and dances. when Kelly did the vid motivation that was the most views I've seen her have and it was like an orgy type vid had people grinding on each other and kissin. And Ciara changed, got blonde weave or whatever, and dancing all freaky her highest viewed vid is like a boy but ride it almost has as many views. Her vid ride it was banned in some countries.
on Tue Feb 4th 2014 at 05:24:53 Ebonymonroe
. . . but different than the day before . . ..
Thanks for clarifying, BR. I myself am more Trip hop and Indie movie enthusiast, personally.
on Tue Feb 4th 2014 at 09:36:54 B. R.
I know you could school me on where to find some more in depth films , that go deeper than the comercial pulp i relish in, Ebonymomroe
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKIbZLraWnQ)
I also want to say , im totaly with you , and the posters , who mention about traditional forms of the Afro diasporic cultures
up above is a great rendition of a Samba de Roda, which would be the traditional origins of samba in Bahia.This was staged for the movie , Barra Vento. Our presentations always have a demonstration of samba de roda, I beleive very much in knowing these traditional origins , im sure you have seen enough of my links to passistas (let me know if you need an example) to be able to see the evolution
Ebonymonroe, beleive me, Brazil is right on the edge of confronting its racism and dis equality that brown and black people have to face because of racism and and the legacy of slavery…strong voices are needed . This is where I plead for anyone concerned about the plight of black and brown people in Brazil , to do good research into the culture and people, to not step on the toes of the art or the customs and state of mind of those people. that guys blog, actualy has lots of relevant threads, but that one wasnt thought out well.
…your awareness of image problems for black people is extremly relevant down here , where black people are excluded, and only now, with quotas, more are showing up, but a strange thing is happening, their cultural referance is pushed way back, sometimes like table decoration, and the actors are more like white culture
I want to clarify also, all my talk about jazz, is always to put it in the Afro diasporic cultural context. You will never hear this from thousands of white kids studying how to play jazz, or even pros…it is not a "jazz world" diologue, and , in truth, even though its heartening to know jazz, a black American innovation, will be studied 100 years into the future , and they will study Coltrane, Miles,Bird, Diz and Shorter, another reason the question"can you hum a wayne shorter tune (they will be studying it 100 years from now)", but, in truth, they arnt teaching it right,and i battle very hard on jazz forums and with working musicians, to get them in touch with the real principles, and origins,, and discriminations, and beleive me, it is a battle…King, by bringing in that picture, has more insight to the discriminations, than a whole gaggle of university students studying jazz…my points on jazz are not standard "jazz world" thinking
on Tue Feb 4th 2014 at 14:41:50 Sharina
mstoogood4yall
I always ask myself what does beyonce have that those other girls don't talent wise? It just boggles me that she has devoted followers and her music is catchy. I heard on the radio she is trying to shed the good girl image. I was like……what good girl image?
I used to call Destiny's child beyonce and them.
Thanks for the link, I'll be sure to check it out. If it is possible to explain it, (or pratical online, rather), may I ask what the differences are between Salsa and Samba? And, why one has been widely accepted, while the other has been, as you say, stigmatised?
I absolutely agree regarding Jazz being revered among high brow arts communities and university music students in the not so distant future. I would imagine Thelonious Monk will be thought of in the same vein as Mozart is now.
I cannot say I consider myself a Pop culturalist; I have always been somewhat Avante garde in my musical tastes. I just used mainstream music entertainers who are well known as examples. Although I am baffled as to how you would arrive at such a conclusion when I haven't really ever discussed my musical tastes in depth on the blog during the short time I have been participating on it.
I too was a Destiny's child fan up until their third album, and a Beyonce fan up to her Sophomore effort, B'day. The only reason why I began to become apathetic towards both music acts, is because of the Pop route both acts decided to take after those points. I didn't much care for "Run the world (girls)," although I understood it was probably in jest due to the assertive female supremacist lyrical content. I thought the fact that the accompanying music video, which presented Beyonce and her female back up dancers in lingerie, crawling on the floor on all fours, booty popping, was quite telling. Demonstrating patriarchal submission and pandering to a male audience seemed, in many ways, hypocritical to me. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with such things, I just interpreted this display, while proclaiming that girls run the world, as an oxymoron. I've always felt "Independent woman" was one of Beyonce's more credibly successful forrays into writing about female empowerment.
@Sharina
I myself was always more of a TLC fanatic.
@ Barravento – Samba e Capoeira
I hadn't watched the links you brought in as I was concerned it would be some form of exotic dancing, and I didn't want to see minors twerkin in thongs. After all this time with you ranting and raving and intricate dance styles, you show me a film of people hopping on their feet like st0ned Irish j!g dancers, and whinning a little bit in a circle like a game of duck duck goose. . . just teasing.
I wouldn't mind seeing some links of passistas dancing if you have any who are not nude, and not children dancing provocatively. I don't mind bikinis, just not thongs.
I've seen the dancing at the end before, where they've grown to incorporate some kind of fighting technique into expressive dancing. Can't remember the name of it. I know it's big in Brazil. The clip was really beautiful, the people really blow my mind.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDQN8qKNzq4)
Yeah,Ebonymonroe, maybe I spoke too soon about you being a pop culturist
These are passistas from Salgeiro, without the costume I talk about…Salgeiro has some great passistas and here , you can see the men also…the steps just blow my mind…as you see here, compared to the other clip, the tempos are faster and the steps are faster
the major differences from samba and salsa are, the beat, and the steps, but, there are some moves that are similar….i think Brazil is so far away its deeper cultures are off the radar, but the movie"Black Orpheus", a French movie about Brazilian carnival, was the best promotion samba has ever got.I beleive its a latent style that could come back in international conciousness with the next smart hollywood company that could make a great movie about it…which means it wont happen. Salsa may have had represion, I know a dance from the Dominican republic was banned…not Merengue , though. Ballroom dancing has a version of samba, but nothing like this in the link, and they do hot salsa dances..in the links I brought in, ballroom dancing was banned in China under Mao, so that would be jazz dancing and salsa
the martial arts dance you are asking about is "Capoeira", and, it was repressesd and banned also, they were afraid the slaves would revolt and use Capoeira to fight…there are huge connections to Angola, some of the instruments like "berimbao" come from there
I apreciete your question about it
on Tue Feb 4th 2014 at 19:59:56 Bulanik
Linda — re Vodou — I realize the points you made were a side-note to the main discussion, but as I read what you said a couple of thoughts occurred to me, and wondered about your opinion.
You clarified the difference between West African Vodun and Caribbean "Vodun", especially in countries like Haiti, mainly because the Christian slavers "wanted the Africans to be "Christians" because many of them were Animists or Muslims …. Voodoo came to the US from the Haitian mixed-race creoles who fled to America and brought their slaves.
The links posted in explanation of that point don't seem to distinguish elements which are exclusive to Louisiana Voodoo. This form does retain the Muslim element because it uses "grigri" — amulets which quote the Qur'an. Grigri is a Wolof word, and Wolof (concentrated in Senegal and Gambia) are overwhelming Sufi Muslims, traditionally led by Marabouts — renowned for their amulet-making and sooth-saying.
It makes for a significant point of difference: I'm guessing the French slavers kidnapped numbers of Wolof that were destined for Louisiana?
"..that's why in the Caribbean, you will find many Igbo or Yoruban words in our "patois" or creole" (like the word "dupey" in Jamaican patois, comes from the Akan language- Twi, I believe)…"Obeah" is an Igbo word
…the Africans in the Caribbean retained, incorporated, and passed down many parts of their culture and traditions…"
Again, I agree with the gist of this.
However, my grandmother has often told me that as far as Jamaica is concerned, the war-like Ashanti have cultural ascendency on the island.
This is regardless of the presence of other African ethnicities and co-habitation within Jamaica's s Afro-Jamaican population.
The Ashanti's combative and irrepressible nature impactd slave importation practices in this way:
the British started their slaving on the Coromantee coast (today's Ghana), and had most trouble with the Ashanti, and related groups., who would not be subdued, and always fought back. Yet, their physiques and fitness made for excellent slave fodder.
The other slaving Europeans — the Spaniards and the French — avoided them if they could. And, even when this particular population was transported to Jamaica — they inevitably fled in numbers to the Maroons in the mountains. Kudjoe was an early leader, and the Kudjoe name is Ashanti.
She's also adamant that "Myal" — the more "religious" form of Obeah is Ashanti as well.
on Tue Feb 4th 2014 at 20:14:21 solesearch
Sharina,
The disconnect with Beyonce and feminism is that she thinks her displays of sexuality are empowering women. She believes she is fighting against the idea that women aren't supposed to enjoy sex.
Which I definitely think is a worthwhile battle. The problem is that her view of sexuality is male driven. It is still meant to satisfy men, not herself. Her satisfaction comes not from sex, but from satisfying men. Her songs are mostly written by men, so it is not surprising.
This song is the perfect example. For instance:
Why doesn't she take him? Why isn't it about him being the kind of guy she likes?
If this song was about female sexual empowerment she would be the one Monica Lewinski'ing.
@solesearch
Thank you for pointing that out. You made a very good point.
on Wed Feb 5th 2014 at 19:02:06 Ebonymonroe
Woooow!!! Man that leg work is stunning; I can't believe this aspect of Brazilian culture hasn't been showcased in the mainstream the way Salsa has. Beautiful.
Yes, that's it Capoeira. It was put to me the same way, that it was banned for fear of a slave uprising.
Lastly, wanted to apologise again for cursing at you. I should not have responded by getting offended by you referring to us as prudish, instead I should have calmly engaged with you about it. I'm apologise.
@soulsearch
Excellent points. This was one of my points about the context in which other female entertainers like TLC and Janet Jackson approached female s-xuality in a completely different way.
Great info as usual @Bulanik
on Thu Feb 6th 2014 at 00:26:21 Ebonymonroe
*I apologise
And more politely, might add. I stand by what I said, but the way I said it was wrong. My sincere apologies.
on Thu Feb 6th 2014 at 15:06:55 B. R.
Ebonymoroe, I apologise also, Im sorry we got to that point..
Your testimony with your mom and work expericance was compelling, and, too close to people i love and care about…you are not the person i really want to conflict with, and, i did enter the thread in a flippant mannor , I admit
No matter on what we might disagree about, my best to you and your struggle, what ever it takes for you to get though the day facing a racist society
Im really glad you noticed the footwork of the dancers, the men and women, that blows my mind also…
the other thing about the women, they look real to me, and not with plastic surgereys and implants, they look like real women .with real beauty
Yes, I apologise again, it shouldn't have gotten to that point, it was immature of me. Don't worry about me, everyone goes through things. I don't do care work anymore, got through uni and now I'm out of that.
Yes they do. That first clip I saw, with the capoeira, the women looked truly beautiful. You don't get to see that kind of beauty, they looked womanly also, and you're right, they looked real. And as if the very energy of full life was pulsing through their spirits. Lovely.
Now I want to see some clips of passistas during carvival.
*carnival
on Thu Feb 6th 2014 at 18:10:48 Bulanik
@ Ebony, you're welcome, sweets. I grew up around that stuff…
A couple of things: first, I havene't read the whole thread — but what are the clips you are discussing with our man, BR?
Secondly, I skimmed the last few posts and I take my hat off to both you and BR. I have learned something vital from both of you.
I love Dance too, studied it (ballet and tap) since I was 5, and remain ever curious about different forms in different places.
I never thanked BR (directly) for shining the light on some of those different forms that fascinate me, but the fact is, I have always appreciated him for it although I didn't say it anywhere at the time!! LOL. My bad…
on Thu Feb 6th 2014 at 21:42:13 mary burrell
It think Jay-Z is the one who created this hypersexual version of Beyonce'. I know artist are supposed to grow and evolve, but Jay-Z is a hustler from the street. He is always thinking about how to get paid, and Beyonce' is the goose that lays the golden eggs. He is a very rich man on his own, but together he created this image for his wife. I feel he is pimping her. I am all for women and empowerment and all that, but I feel he created this image. The Destiny Child Beyonce' is gone forever, and that's ok. But this image is his creation in my opinion.
@ Mary, I never paid much mind to Beyonce, listening to her lyrics or watching her shows or thought about the trajectory of her career.
I greatly admire her achievements, but after what you and the other commenters have explained on this thread, I see there's a lot I didn't realize about her at all…
on Thu Feb 6th 2014 at 22:27:15 King
Yeah, JZ is doing a great job of "empowering" Beyonce!
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsRIRHom9x0)
And as you can see, the "empowerment" is catching on!
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlgnnlLAvTw)
on Thu Feb 6th 2014 at 23:20:30 mstoogood4yall
yeah I agree too. it was a vid of "conspiracy theory" where they were saying the vid she did with jay z I think it was the crazy in love vid, and they said after that vid the old beyonce died. In the vid she is in a car and it blows up then she reemerges next to jay z. http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=beyonce+crazy+in+love+illuminati&FORM=VIRE6#view=detail&mid=63C6B4CFDB1495BC942863C6B4CFDB1495BC9428
Naaah, I think Beyoncé is her own woman, she has long prostrated herself as a s-x symbol first and an artist second. Some women are just that way, ya know?
on Tue Feb 18th 2014 at 05:35:26 Angela
Why are you acting like Brazil is some kind of paragon of black freedom and authenticity? Did you know that the majority of blacks in the transatlantic slave trade went to Brazil? South America is still racist and was built on the enslavment of black people, so I am not one to trust the idea that the climate there is one of pure black liberation and no sexual exploitation.
on Tue Feb 18th 2014 at 08:43:55 B. R.
Why don't you read my words correctly, Angela? I have often commented here that Brazil has as big issues with racism as the USA. They have harder issues with images in the media of black people than the USA.
What I said was ,Brazil is more advanced in sensuality, than most places, and , since it has some of the most powerful examples of Afro diasporic culture anywhere, one part of that culture is the passistas, who are one of the most sensual exiting dance cultures in the world…Through the filter of Brazil, passistas can exist
A black Brazilian has to experience racism , like anywhere else in the Americas that brought slaves from Africa , including Cuba….but, they get to experience advanced sensuality , and , booty culture, that is unique to Brazil
on Tue Feb 18th 2014 at 10:05:43 Linda
Bualnik @ Also:
Hey Bulanik…. sorry to get back to you so late… been busy making a living. Anyway, I don't want to derail this thread, so I answered you in the Jamaica thread. (which is currently sitting in moderation, so keep an eye out)
https://abagond.wordpress.com/2006/08/29/jamaica/#comment-215624
on Fri Feb 28th 2014 at 07:08:14 Beyoncé – Partition with lyrics
[…] Beyoncé: Yoncé […]
on Fri Feb 28th 2014 at 10:39:41 Bulanik
Hey, Miss L. I answered you on that thread. I'll try to find out some more from the old-timer this coming week when I see her.
on Mon Mar 31st 2014 at 16:26:15 Ebonymonroe
I came across this article on Brazil today and its attitudes towards women and provocative dressing and thought of you and this debate. It seems your liberal outlook on Brazilian women's nudity and physical displays of "sensuality" may not be shared by the public itself which seems to be far from the progressive society you interpret it as . . ..
'I Don't Deserve To Be Raped' Protest Goes Viral In Brazil
The online campaign has spread after survey finds over 65 per cent of Brazilians think women dressed provocatively deserve to be attacked
Outraged women have taken to Twitter to protest a new survey that has found the majority of Brazilians think women who dress provocatively are ASKING to be raped
Brazilian women bare all to remind people that no woman deserves to be raped [Twitter]
In a movement that has quickly gone viral, men and women across Brazil have tweeted pictures of themselves in various states of undress with signs reading 'I do not deserved to be raped' in Portuguese.
One online protestor was photographed holding up a sign that read –
A topless man:
( ) is feeling hot
( ) is going to play football
( ) wants to be raped, of course!
The hashtag #EuNaoMerecoSerEstuprada (I do not deserve to be raped) came about after journalist Nina Quieroz asked women to protest the findings of the survey.
Protestor points out the double-standard of men vs women being topless [Twitter]
Carried out by their Institute for Applied Economic Research, the poll found that 65.1 per cent of Brazilians agreed with the statement that if a woman was dressed a certain way she deserved to be attacked.
Worryingly, 66.5 per cent of the people surveyed were women.
Thousands of Brazilians have taken to social media to protest the shocking survey results, which have far-reaching implications for the safety of women in one of the world's largest countries.
As a country famous for bikinis on Copacabana Beach and outrageous costumes at the Rio Carnival, their conservative views may come as a shock to the rest of the world but sexual abuse of women is a serious concern in Brazil.
Between 2009 and 2012, there was a 157 per cent rise in rape cases reported, which may be down to the reclassification of what constitutes rape.
The slogan 'I do not deserve to be raped' has gone viral [Twitter]
Before the amendment widened the legal definition of rape, only 'tested vaginal penetration' was classed as rape while all other crimes were prosecuted as just 'indecent assault'.
Despite being one of the few countries in the world to have a democratically elected female head of state in the form of President Dilma Rousseff, it seems Brazil still has a way to go in terms of female equality and safety.
With 600,000 international fans expected to descend for the World Cup in June and 16 sexual assaults happening every day in Rio de Janeiro, the eyes of the world are on Brazil but for all the wrong reasons.
Source: Yahoo news.
https://uk.lifestyle.yahoo.com/-i-don-t-deserve-to-be-raped–protest-goes-viral-in-brazil-114308195.html
Side story on website page: Children as young as nine are being sold on the streets on Recife Sky's Jason Farrell explored how children as young as nine are being drawn into Brazil's child $ex trade.
on Tue Apr 1st 2014 at 12:11:50 B. R.
First, look exactly who is protesting the most, women…I always said the Brazilian women run the sensuality, and they run it wonderfully…
I have never claimed Brazil was the utopian place that is free of uptight western dogmas..its full of dichotomies, its a Catholic country, right there is a dichotomy with the beach ethic, people have a polite ethic, but it is one of the more violent countries in the world
What I do claim is , it is more advanced in its sensuality than most other countries, and that is true…
All the beaches in Brazil wont even come close to a large percentage of the population, the northeast beaches arnt as sensual as Rio and other beaches south as far as Santa Catarina.
Brazil is a macho society, I never claimed that women had it easiar with men in Brazil…the mistake would be to think rape or child prostitution or violence against women is more there than anywhere else…or that bikinis on the beach or passista costumes have anything to do with violence or rape towards women…the most common reports about women being killed are because of breakups in the relationship
The fact many people would think that in Brazil, doesnt mean its true…there is an enormous evangelical movement in Brazil, and you can bet they are a big part if this mentality
This is a huge country, a huge amount of varying opinions exist, but , there is incredible sensuality from the women . And just look, they are the ones defending their rights to their sensuality…which sais a lot about how they feel, and , who really is in charge, on the beach or the passistas…Brazilian women love their sensuality, and will defend it , and that is exactly what I said
Im glad you brought it in, I have been following that report, and, it is the women who are outraged by it
One of the biggest problems women face in Brazil, is having men rub up against them on crowded buses or subway cars.i mean in a real bad way..here is a place that has no bikinis or passista costumes , but there is more harrasement on there than ever on the beach or to passistas
There is no shortsge of sexualy depraved men in Brazil..
I never claimed. Brazilian men were less macho or less violent to women, yet, there is an ethic on the beach that men wont dog the women while they are near naked on the beach, and I respect that…if its not South Beach, American men start getting nervous around a thong …pretty soon a fight breaks out , or something like who let the dogs out…
Brazil is also one of the richest countries in the world in Afro diasporic culture, but the most popular musics are a horrible country music called certaneja, and horrible Brazilian pop rock..
There is a huge interior of people who think differantly than urban beach frequentors…just like any big country , there are huge differances in mentality
Just because certaneja is the most popular doent mean the incredibly rich Afro diasporic cultures dont exist…they are there for those who want it
And , the same with women and what they chose to wear, just because that amount of people feel that way, it doesnt stop the Brazilian woman from expressing herself how she wants in what she wears…and, that is what counts, how they feelm about it , not how other people think about them, and , the prof is on the ground, its not hídden because of uptight thinking
And I respect those women very much, they have truly enriched my life without even knowing them
The amazing thing about Brazil is that there are many things that are like USA cities, or European cities, but , what jumps out at you very powerfully is that this is a booty culture, and the beach is more sensual with a booty ethic, and there are passistas in Rio Escola de Sambas who wear very sensual costumes
No matter that 65 percent can think concervativly, the sensual booty culture comes through in a big way…and that is because many women want that and will defend their right to their sensuality
on Tue Apr 1st 2014 at 21:24:16 Bulanik
@ constantly! That link of Katherine Ryan imitating Beyonce! Cracked me up.
on Tue Apr 1st 2014 at 21:48:09 Sharina
That clip was hilarious. I died laughing.
on Tue Apr 22nd 2014 at 20:14:59 Ebonymonroe
I won't get into debating again as I think it's established that we respectfully agree to disagree on this subject matter. But to explain where I was coming from by touching on the concept of female Chauvinism . . ..
Female Chauvinist Pigs
Female Chauvinist Pigs: Women and the Rise of Raunch Culture (2005) is a book by Ariel Levy which critiques the highly sexualized American culture in which women are objectified, objectify one another, and are encouraged to objectify themselves. Levy refers to this as "raunch culture".
According to Levy, raunch culture is a product of the unresolved feminist s*x wars – the conflict between the women's movement and the s*xual revolution. Another source places the beginnings of raunch culture in the permissive society of the 1960s, which in postfeminist perspective was less about female sexual liberation than fulfilling the male fantasy of unlimited female availableness. Levy also characterizes raunch culture as a backlash against the stereotypes of "prude" and "uptight" (women) applied to many second-wave feminists (e.g., anti-pornography feminists). Marcuse's intuition of the increased role of s*xuality in advanced industrialism was thereafter increasingly confirmed by a pragmatic alliance between neo-liberalism and the commodification of s*xuality.
The 1990s saw the ever-growing s*xualization of the media, with raunchiness emerging in the overlapping interfaces of music, TV, video and advertising. By the close of the century, figures like Germaine Greer were talking critically of "bimbo feminism", whereby acknowledging one's inner "s!ut" (in a commodified context) was seen as an ultimate goal.
Levy claims that the enjoyment of raunch, or "kitschy, s!utty stereotypes of female s*xuality," has existed through the ages, but it was once a phenomenon that existed primarily in the male sphere and has since become mainstream and highly visible. Raunch culture has penetrated "political life, the music industry, art, fashion, and taste."
Levy's critique of raunch culture
Citing examples ranging from the fad of Playboy Bunny merchandise for women to the moral panic of rainbow parties, Levy argues that American mass culture has framed the game so perversely that young women now strive to be the "hottest" and "s*xiest" girl they know rather than the most accomplished. Despite the fact that raunch culture is focused on the s*x appeal of women, it is solely image-based: "It's about inauthenticity and the idea that women should be constantly exploding in little bursts of exhibitionism. It's an idea that female s*xuality should be about performance and not about pleasure." Levy argues that in a raunch culture, many women engage in performances of s*xuality that are not expressions of their individual s*xuality, but are designed for the pleasure of the male observer(s) – or appear as though they are trying to be pleasurable s*x objects. Levy describes "hotness" as the degree to which someone is trying to be s*xually attractive, regardless of how conventionally attractive they actually are.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3mP3mJDL2k)
Further, Levy theorizes that many women internalize the objectifying male gaze that permeates a raunch culture, leading them to participate in self-objectification quite willingly, falsely believing that it is a form of female empowerment and s*xual liberation. Despite accounts of numerous women stating that they feel empowered and liberated by aspects of raunch culture, according to Levy there is nothing to support the "conception of raunch culture as a path to liberation rather than oppression." Others, such as Susan Brownmiller, a well-known American feminist, journalist, author, and activist, share this opinion.
Although raunch originated in the male domain, Levy claims that it "no longer makes sense to blame men." Central to Levy's analysis of raunch culture is the concept of "Female Chauvinist Pigs": women who s*xually objectify other women and themselves. According to Levy, there are two strategies a Female Chauvinist Pig (FCP) employs to "deal with her femaleness". In the first strategy, an FCP distinguishes herself from women who she deems excessively feminine ("girly-girls"), while simultaneously objectifying such women (e.g., going to strip clubs, reading Playboy, and talking about porn stars). Women may employ this strategy as an attempt to attain the elevated status of the dominant group (cisgendered men) and overcome their oppression by acting like male chauvinists.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sdz2oW0NMFk)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehcVomMexkY)
In the second strategy, an FCP objectifies herself through her choice of apparel and expression of stereotypes of female sexuality. This strategy may also be employed as an attempt to gain status, through embodying what society portrays as the ideal object of male desire.
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3CBUm7GrNI)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAp9BKosZXs)
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjgC0AxHCDg)
Levy criticizes what she refers to as "lipstick feminists" and "loophole women". According to Levy, lipstick feminists believe, for example, that stripping is empowering for women and that putting on a show to attract men, for instance through makeup, clothing, or girl-on-girl physical contact, is not contrary to the goals and ideals of feminism. Levy disagrees with this view, criticizing such lipstick feminists as those involved in the CAKE organization, which provides sexually oriented entertainment for women. Levy quotes from the CAKE website: "The new sexual revolution is where sexual equality and feminism finally meet."
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5pM1fW6hNs)
On the other end of the spectrum, Levy takes issue with women who make their way in a man's world by playing by men's rules. Sometimes, she argues, these women even make their fame and fortune by objectifying other women; for example, Levy finds it interesting that the Playboy organization was run by a woman, Christie Hefner, Hugh Hefner's daughter. Levy addresses women who succeed in male-dominated fields on their own merit, but shy away from feminism, saying: "But if you are the exception that proves the rule, and the rule is that women are inferior, you haven't made any progress."
Levy proposes the following as a solution: "Ending raunch culture will require citizens to scrutinise the way they regard gender. Objectification is rooted in disrespect, condescending views of the opposite gender, and power struggles. When men realise that they have the capability to fundamentally respect women, and women realise that they have the power to present themselves as empowered, fully capable people, raunch culture may moan its last and final faked orgasm."
Additional critiques of raunch culture
Critics have particularly emphasized opinions that proponents of raunch culture conflate the idea of sexual liberation with the exploitation of women as commercialised objects. Through what is seen as bogus emphasis on a creed of 'empowerment' and choice, raunch culture's hypers*xuality is internalised as a new public gender regime by a generation of women seen as colluding willingly with the male agenda—producing a sort of 'do-me feminism' as a mere recuperation of the traditional male sexual imagination.
Raunch culture is thus considered by postfeminists as a shift to a new and 'higher' form of exploitation by way of the internalization of the male gaze—facilitating the making of s*x into a money-spinner and people into objects of consumption as part of the wider process of commodification of late modernity.
Response[edit]
Levy's argument that numerous women falsely believe that they are empowered by raunch culture because they internalize patriarchal thought is based in the Marxist concept of false consciousness. Several feminist authors have criticized feminist attributions of false consciousness, including Liz Stanley and Sue Wise in their book Breaking Out: Feminist Consciousness and Feminist Research: "The idea of 'false' and 'true' consciousness, with 'true consciousness' being what revolutionaries have, is offensively patronizing. It denies the validity of people's own interpretations and understandings."
Levy places considerable blame on women for the phenomenon of raunch culture, explicitly stating "It no longer makes sense to blame men," despite attributing raunch culture to patriarchy.
Levy's discussion of raunch culture could be perceived as s!ut-shaming, in that some of the language in Female Chauvinist Pigs is disparaging of women who express their s*xuality in a particular way (e.g., referring to them generally as "bimbos").
I won't go back and forth on the ideas of conservatism and liberalism in a general context, as that's a matter of opinion. But, my point is if as you say Brazilian nudity is confined to one gender group (girls and women) because, as you say, it's a macho society (i.e. patriarchal), then it's quite probable that women who, as you said, are competing on the beach trying to outdo one another in how small their bikinis can be, are not actually representations of female empowerment and female s*xual liberation, but an example of the internalized state of traditional female posturing and patriarchy.
Secondly, my point was that if Brazil is running to the front in a growing problem of the s*x trafficking by force of women and female children, then an idea that you originally presented of Brazil being a shinning example of a country coexisting in female hypers*xual nude, or as you put it s*nsual expression while being divorced from female violence is null and void. Since it's becoming well known as a society where it's women and female children are objectified and commodified. I'm sure you have experienced many trips to the beach where you've never seen women being who compete in how small their thongs are, are bothered along with young female children twerkin' but ultimately, as the statistics show, though you may not see it, women and female children are most certainly being bothered in large numbers in Brazil.
Lastly, I don't think the purpose of the campaign was women fighting for their right to be nude, but rather, protesting that there is never any excuse for a woman or girl to be raped. It seems you may have grossly misinterpreted that.

redpajama_set_name: RedPajamaCommonCrawl