text:
"What kind of an ally is Saudi Arabia?&q
[Follow Ups] [Post Followup] [Our Discussion Forum]
Posted by Lilly from D007072.N1.Vanderbilt.Edu (129.59.7.72) on Wednesday, November 27, 2002 at 2:08PM :
Ibish always argues so well.
CNN TALKBACK LIVE 15:00
GUESTS: Stephen Schwartz, Hussein Ibish
ARTHEL NEVILLE, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK
LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville.
What kind of an ally is Saudi Arabia? Top lawmakers are asking that
question today as investigators trace a money trail that reportedly
starts with the wife of the Saudi ambassador to the U.S., and could
lead to some of the September 11 killers.
Among many questions is whether Princess Haifa al-Faisal knew who she
was giving -- or giving money to when she sent checks to two Saudi
students in California?
Now, the students apparently have ties to two of the hijackers who
flew the plane into the Pentagon. Saudi officials say the princess had
no idea there was a connection.
ADEL AL JUBEIR, SAUDI FOREIGN POLICY ADVISER: Al Qaeda's objective is
to come after Saudi Arabia as much as it is to come after the U.S.,
and the last thing we would do is fund people whose objective is to
murder us.
SEN. RICHARD SHELBY (R), ALABAMA: You can't have it both ways. You
can't finance terrorists. You can't finance charities that you have
reason to believe that will finance terrorism around the world, aid
and abet it, and say, oh, we're great friends of the U.S.
AL JUBEIR: I think a lot of what is being said in Washington, I would
subscribe to, the political debates that are going on. And I think we
happen to the political football these days.
NEVILLE: OK, here to talk about U.S.-Saudi relations, and whether
money is being funneled to terrorist, is Hussein Ibish, communications
director for the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee. Hello.
HUSSEIN IBISH, AMER.-ARAB ANTI-DISCRIMINATION CMTE.: Hi, great to be
with you.
NEVILLE: Good. And Stephen Schwartz, a senior fellow at the Foundation
for the Defense of Democracies, he is the author of "The Two Faces of
Islam: The house of Saud, from tradition to terror." And welcome to
you as well, sir.
STEPHEN SCHWARTZ, FDN. FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Good to be here.
NEVILLE: Good.
SCHWARTZ: Thank you.
NEVILLE: Mr. Schwartz, actually, I'm going to start with you today. Is
it possible...
SCHWARTZ: OK.
NEVILLE: Is it possible that Princess Haifa did not know the money was
going to supporters of the 9/11 attack?
SCHWARTZ: Well, yes, it's possible. But one has to understand that the
issue is not how much Princess Haifa knew or any of those details. The
issue is that the Saudi states, the Saudi monarchy is wedded to an
extremist Islamic ideology called Wahhabism. It's the state sect in
Saudi Arabia. It's the Saudi -- a section of the Saudi monarchy's
finances, Wahhabism, and its extension throughout the world.
Wahhabism is what led to 9/11. Wahhabism is a form of Islam that
attacks traditional Muslims, it attacks Shiites, it attacks Jews,
Christians, Hindus and Sikhs (ph). But at the same time, historically
over the last 250 years, the Wahhabi Sabi (ph) alliance that rule in
Arabia has had a two-face policy of attacking the other face and
attacking the traditional Muslims, while depending on the Christian
powers -- Britain, the United States and France -- to keep them in
power in the Peninsula. And that's what's going on today.
I don't think there's any doubt that the whole political culture of
the Sudari (ph) -- that is King Fahd, Prince Sultan, the father of
Prince Bandar, Prince Bandar himself and Prince Nayef -- is a
political culture that fosters extremism. There is simply no doubt
about this.
And to try to make it a question as to whether or not we can find some
particular check signed over to some particular person is not the
issue. The issue is that everybody in the kingdom is indoctrinated in
this extremist ideology.
NEVILLE: So, then...
SCHWARTZ: And what happened on 9/11 was not about Osama bin Laden
having a tactic to separate the U.S. from Saudi Arabia. It was an
inevitable outcome of the extremist ideology that is the official form
of Islam in Saudi Arabia.
IBISH: Well, of course, Mr. Schwartz is wise not to try to make the
allegations that have been made about this check, because to draw
anything suspicious about it, you have to make four huge leaps.
First you have to assume these men were involved in the 9/11 attack.
There is no evidence of that. Secondly, you have to assume that their
wives, to whom the checks were sent, actually signed the money over to
them and that they received it. Then you have to assume that the money
was used somehow for some nefarious purpose. And the fourth step, you
have to assume that the Princess Haifa knew about this. So, this is a
big sort of to-do about nothing.
However, there is an important question lurking behind it, which has
to do with unanswered questions about the way in which al Qaeda
emerged at fringes of Saudi society. Now, Stephen Schwartz has said
it's an inevitable result of all of Saudi political culture. I think
that's absurd!
SCHWARTZ: I don't think all of Saudi political...
IBISH: Hold on, I think it's...
SCHWARTZ: I said of Wahhabism.
IBISH: Let me finish, Stephen. What I'm saying is, it's pretty clear
that the Saudi government has been a very close ally of the United
States, and that bin Laden is not only attacking the United States,
it's actually attacking also the government of Saudi Arabia.
NEVILLE: So then, having said that, Mr. Ibish -- excuse me, Mr.
Schwartz. Having said that, Mr. Ibish, so you can say with 100 percent
certainty that there is no direct link on the money trail between
Saudi Arabia and terrorism?
IBISH: No, of course I can't say that. What I'm saying is in fact --
actually, in fact, I'm saying the opposite. What I'm saying is that
there are unanswered questions about how people like Mr. bin Laden and
people like the 15 hijackers emerged. What part of Saudi society do
they come from? What is going on inside the fringe of Saudi discourse
that allows this? I don't think those questions have been answered
NEVILLE: Can you answer those?
IBISH: Well, I'd like to -- I'd like to...
SCHWARTZ: I can answer them.
IBISH: Oh, no, hold on. I'd like to tell you why -- no, we know what
Stephen Schwartz says. He says it's all an inevitable outcome of Saudi
NEVILLE: Guys, Mr. Schwartz, Mr. Schwartz, I will give you an
opportunity to answer after Mr. Ibish.
IBISH: Yes, what I'd like to say is that, you know, it's obvious that
both the United States and Saudi Arabia did promote right-wing Muslim
extremism, especially with regard to the war in Afghanistan in the
1980s. It was our American idea, in the Regan Administration, to
collect, you know, radical Islamic militants, like bin Laden, and send
them to Afghanistan. It was our idea to launch the first great global
jihad.
I mean, this is a mistake that has been made by Saudi Arabia, by the
United States, Pakistan, by a bunch of countries at a time when we
thought it was a good idea in fighting the Cold War. Now, it's classic
blow-back that's come back to haunt us.
NEVILLE: Mr. Schwartz, I know you want to respond to that. I will give
you an opportunity. I have to take a break right now. When we come
back, are Saudi-U.S. relations in a crisis mode? We'll find out.
Plus, I want to take your calls and e-mails later about today's
question of the day: If the government changes the way we are all
warned about terrorism alerts, attacks and other crises, how would you
like to be notified? By phone, pager, Internet, television, radio or
whatever?
Give me a call, or you can e-mail me, and we're back in a moment.
Don't go anywhere.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (NEWSBREAK)
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: What's going on is the Saudis are
trying to catch up with 10-12 years of very bad policy. I am doubtful
that there was an intentional transfer of money from the ambassador's
wife to the hijackers. There's a long pattern of the Saudis
essentially buying off extremism in their country. They have built
thousands of madrasas. They have charities that they know were not
doing good things. (END VIDEO CLIP)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everyone. I'm Arthel Neville.
We're talking about U.S.-Saudi relations in light of an investigation
into money that possibly made its way from the wife of the Saudi
ambassador to the U.S. to a couple of students with alleged ties to
September 11 terrorists.
And, Mr. Schwartz, before the break, I promised I would let you
respond to Mr. Ibish's comments.
SCHWARTZ: Well, first of all, this fairy tale created by the Saudis
and their apologists about how Osama bin Laden is a bigger threat to
them as he is to us is just ridiculous. There has been no terror
campaign by Osama bin Laden inside Saudi Arabia. There were...
IBISH: Well...
SCHWARTZ: Please don't interrupt me, Hussein.
IBISH: All right.
SCHWARTZ: There have been two incidents that were ambiguous, one of
which the Saudis tried to blame on Iran. The fact is, Osama bin Laden
has never called for the overthrow of the Saudi monarchy, Osama bin
Laden has never even named or attacked by name a single member of the
royal family, and Osama bin Laden does not call for armed struggle or
terrorism inside Saudi Arabia.
NEVILLE: And that implies, what, sir?
IBISH: Well, it's not true.
SCHWARTZ: And that implies...
IBISH: That is absolutely not true.
SCHWARTZ: He represents an ultra radical wing of the monarchy.
IBISH: You know, you should try listening to some of his speeches
sometime. And the man...
SCHWARTZ: I have read all of Osama's text.
IBISH: Hold on, Stephen. The guy goes on endless diatribes about the
corrupt governments that have defiled... (CROSSTALK)
SCHWARTZ: He does not name names. He does not call for overthrow. He
calls for it...
IBISH: He condemns all of them, but he specifically condemns...
SCHWARTZ: No, you're wrong, Hussein. You're wrong.
IBISH: He specifically condemns...
SCHWARTZ: Hussein, you're wrong.
IBISH: ... those that are in bed with the United States.
SCHWARTZ: You're wrong, Hussein. You're wrong!
IBISH: I am absolutely right.
SCHWARTZ: Osama bin Laden calls for a change in the policies of the
government, and his discourse...
IBISH: Well, he...
SCHWARTZ: ... in addressing the royal family is that of a loyal
opponent. He does not...
IBISH: I don't agree with that at all. I think that that is a
ridiculous mischaracterization.
SCHWARTZ: ... calling for the overthrow of the Saudi regime.
IBISH: No, that's a ridiculous mischaracterization.
SCHWARTZ: It's not a mischaracterization. It's a fact.
IBISH: Listen to me. Now, Stephen, listen to me. He has condemned...
SCHWARTZ: Wait! I don't see how why I should have to listen to a
continuing diatribe by you.
IBISH: ... in the strongest terms all governments that cooperate with
the United States...
SCHWARTZ: In defense of the Saudi regime.
IBISH: ... and that's clearly his...
SCHWARTZ: Why are you defending the most reactionary regime in the
world?
IBISH: I'm not defending anybody.
SCHWARTZ: You are defending them!
IBISH: I'm telling you what exactly, bin Laden says, which you don't
seem able to comprehend.
SCHWARTZ: You're an apologist for them!
IBISH: Where do you get that? I'm not an apologist of anyone, you are
misrepresenting some basic facts.
SCHWARTZ: You're trying to clean up their skirts. Why are you doing
this? I don't understand it.
IBISH: What is this absurdity? I'm simply telling you what bin Laden
says all the time.
SCHWARTZ: I'm telling you what bin Laden says, and bin Laden has never
called for the overthrow of the Saudi monarchy...
IBISH: That's your -- what he has done...
SCHWARTZ: ... has never mentioned a single member of the monarchy by
IBISH: What he has done...
SCHWARTZ: ... and does not conduct terror inside in Saudi Arabia.
IBISH: Steven, first of all, all I'm doing is telling you the truth,
which is that...
SCHWARTZ: No, no, I'm telling you the truth, Hussein!
IBISH: Will you stop interrupting me?
SCHWARTZ: You're masking the truth.
IBISH: No! What I'm telling you simply what he says, but you somehow
can't grasp.
NEVILLE: OK, gentlemen, I am going to step in right here, because I
have Art in the audience from California.
IBISH: Thank you! What nonsense!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. If I can get a word in edgewise here.
IBISH: Please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just would like to ask Mr. Schwartz, to what
extent he thinks the Saudi royal families in fact are committed to
this brand of extreme Islam, and to what extent they are appeasing the
radicals just to keep the lid on?
SCHWARTZ: They are the radicals. They are not appeasing the radicals.
Wahhabism is the state religion of Saudi Arabia. Now, inside the royal
family there is a faction of hard Wahhabis represented by the King
Fahd, by Prince Sultan, Prince Bandar and Prince Nayef. There's also a
faction of the royal family that's not Wahhabi. Crown Prince Abdullah
is not a Wahhabi. I reject completely and reset Hussein Ibish saying
that I said the whole of Saudi political culture is Wahhabi.
IBISH: You know...
SCHWARTZ: The whole of it is not.
IBISH: The problem is...
SCHWARTZ: Crown Prince Abdullah is not a Wahhabi.
IBISH: Crown Prince Abdullah is the senior-most member of the
SCHWARTZ: Let me finish -- let me finish my time.
IBISH: You're using a sledgehammer when you need to be using a
scalpel, and you're totally confused about this subject.
SCHWARTZ: Look the point is, there is a section of the royal family
that is not Wahhabi.
IBISH: It makes no sense. You've just contradicted yourself, by the
way, and not for the first time this afternoon.
SCHWARTZ: There is a section of the royal family, a faction of the
royal family that represents the extreme Wahhabi point of view. There
is a tension between them and Crown Prince Abdullah. There is growing
tension between the monarch, the royal family and the people of Saudi
Arabia and I'm on the side of the people in Saudi Arabia against these
terrorists!
IBISH: If you can readily distinguish between Crown Prince Abdullah's
views and King Fahd's views, but you can't see a difference between
bin Laden's view and Fahd's views, then you're missing the picture
altogether.
SCHWARTZ: I'm not missing the picture.
IBISH: And it's so obvious.
SCHWARTZ: I'm not trying to pretty up a bunch of terrorists.
IBISH: Oh, back to that foolishness again. I'm not prettying anything.
I'm telling you exactly what it is.
SCHWARTZ: No.
NEVILLE: So, gentlemen, I ask both of you this question, which I want
the answer after the break: Can the U.S. trust Saudi Arabia?
We're going to talk more about this. I've got some audience comments
to share with you as well. Don't go anywhere. TALKBACK LIVE continues
in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (NEWS ALERT)
NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. We talking about U.S.- Saudi
relations. Are they extreme, those relations? I want to ask Mr.
Schwartz if you think this latest information regarding a possible
money trail from Princess Haifa to some suspected supporters of the
9/11 terrorists.
SCHWARTZ: Look, the Saudi government right after 9/11 should have done
what any normal government in the world would have done. They should
have declared they were going to carry out a full investigation, a
thorough and transparent investigation of every aspect of 9/11 and
they would hand the results off to us. For a little over a year now
they have been stonewalling us. They sent al-Jubir (ph) on to give
these patronizing little lectures about fairness. They refuse to tell
us the truth, they refuese to be up front with us. It's time for the
United States to get the accounting from Saudi Arabia that we need of
the funding, recruitment and backing...
NEVILLE: But will they do that, Mr. Schwartz? Will they do that?
Because the U.S. depends on Saudi Arabia for oil and for military...
SCHWARTZ: Well, they have to do it. They have to do it. And if they
don't do it, then we have to find ways to compel them to do it. And if
they still do not do it, then we have to completely revise our
relationship with them.
IBISH: Do I get to answer the question?
NEVILLE: Yes, you do.
IBISH: OK. I mean, I think it's clear the Saudi government is a close
ally of the United States. I also think it's clear that there are
serious strains within that relationship. And the fact that this non-
story has become a story indicates that those...
NEVILLE: How do you say that this is a non-story, Mr. Ibish?
IBISH: Well, it's a non-story because of the four leaps of faith you
have to make to make this almost certainly innocent thing into
something that's suspicious.
NEVILLE: Not necessarily, sir, because 15 of the 19 hijackers were
from Saudi Arabia. So there are some dots that people might connect.
IBISH: Well that's my point. That's exactly my -- that's my point. My
point is, this check business is, obviously, you know, not a story.
But the fact is, that there is this problem between the United States
and certainly an element of Saudi society. That's what actually
propels this non-story about checks into being something that makes
people interested.
And I think also that it goes further than that, because there's a lot
of hostility towards Saudi Arabia in this country as well. And I think
NEVILLE: And why is that?
IBISH: It also...
NEVILLE: If that's the case, why is that, sir?
IBISH: Well, I think there's mutual recrimination here. I think
there's alienation, and I think that it comes from a mixture of anger
about the attacks. I think that also there are people with an agenda,
frankly, an anti-Arab agenda, who want to trash all Arabs --
especially Arab countries that are close to the United States. And I
think that there's been a lot of anti-Arab propaganda in the
entertainment industry and in the news media that has effected --
deeply and badly effected U.S. relations with all of its Arab allies.
NEVILLE: I'm going back to the Dr. Acadia (ph) to hear your response
to this.
ARCADIA: Well, only thing I can say about this, if you are a friend,
this is the time the United States is at war with -- or about to enter
war. Show us the friendship. Do not play games like this. If you are a
true friend, show your friendship.
NEVILLE: Thank you very much, sir. And Mehesh (ph) here had something
to say.
MEHESH: Saudi Arabia, which is ruled by religious sacks that are
heavily controlled by (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and they've been funding the
organizations that are extreme in their thoughts. Like in Kashmir,
India, the Taliban was funded heavily by Pakistan at that time. And
they were funded by (UNINTELLIGIBLE) also. Any time you fund the
organizations like that, you can never be sure if the money will not
go in the hands of terrorists.
NEVILLE: Thank you very much, sir. And I have Mark Anthony (ph) over
here in the audience who has something to say.
MARK ANTHONY: Yes, just a basic comment. I really believe that Saudi
Arabia is not an ally of the United States. And it's not because of
anti-Arab or anything like that. I mean, if a person shows exactly
their true colors, you only can call a spade a spade. The bottom line
is this, over the past year the Saudis have done x, y and z, as far as
not helping with the war on terrorism.
IBISH: Well, that's not what the government says. You know the Bush
administration, every senior official who has been asked about this,
has said that Saudi Arabia has been very cooperative. I agree, that
there are unanswered questions, but I think that they're not being
asked by the Saudis, they're not being asked by us, because we're both
afraid of the answers, frankly. We are afraid of our own history in
promoting this kind of horrible politics. They are afraid of theirs.
There are no clean hands in this mess.
MARK ANTHONY: The bottom line is this: the United States asks for
military assistance to use bases to launch attacks on Afghanistan. As
a prior military service man that served in Desert Storm and Desert
Shield, I believe that it's a slap in the face for all of the families
that lost people over there in Saudi Arabia fighting to gain freedom
for their country, because our country is already free. We went over
there to help them out, and now that we need them to fight this global
war -- hold on second, this global war on terrorism, the Saudis said
no. And I really believe that is a slap in the face. But the last
point is this. I real believe that the United States should rethink
who their true friends are. And remember, you need to keep your
enemies close -- correction -- well, thank you. The bottom line is we
got to do a little bit better in choosing our friends, and the Saudis
they're not one of them.
NEVILLE: We know what you were saying. Thank you very much, Mark
Anthony (ph). Mr. Ibish, I'll give you 10 seconds. I'm out of time.
SCHWARTZ: Wait a minute, what about me?
IBISH: I don't understand what he is talking about. You must mean
Iraq, because the United States has not asked for permission with
regard to Afghanistan. If it's about Iraq, the war on Iraq is not
9/11. Iraq was not involved in 9/11; this is a very different thing.
And if the Saudis don't want to get involved in something that many
people in our own government, our own generals, our own CIA, our own
State Department, many people think is a terrible idea, they certainly
have that right. Maybe we should listen to them. (CROSSTALK)
NEVILLE: OK, Mr. Schwartz 10 seconds to you.
SCHWARTZ: Thank you. Ten seconds is fine.
IBISH: I mean, they're not obliged to embrace all our policies,
especially unwise ones.
SCHWARTZ: Well, all I have to say is this is not about being anti-
Arab. I am not anti-Arab. I have no hidden agendas except that I want
the people of Arabia to enter the road of a transition to democracy. I
want this powerful wealthy society called Saudi Arabia right now to
become a modern normal state.
NEVILLE: That's been ten seconds.
IBISH: And I'll go along with all of that. Yeah, I'll go along with
OK. Hussein Ibish and Stephen Schwartz, thank you very much, both, for
the lively discussion. We enjoyed both of your perspectives. Thanks so
much for being here on TALKBACK LIVE today.
And up next, some therapists say the only way most alcoholics can
regain those lost weekends is to part company with the bottle forever.
But our next guest insists problem drinkers may not have to be that
dry. Could there be sipping room for the reforms? We'll find out after
this break. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment.
(APPLAUSE) (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
THE ABRAMS REPORT
18:00 November 25, 2002 Monday
GUESTS: Frank Gaffney; Hussein Ibish
DAN ABRAMS, HOST: Hi, everyone.
On the agenda tonight: With U.N. weapons inspectors in Iraq, is it
time to send financial inspectors to Saudi Arabia or at least look
real hard at all of their finances? A report out today says a Saudi
princess who also happens to be the wife of the Saudi ambassador to
the U.S. may have helped fund the hijackers. And, remember, 15 of the
19 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. Question: Is it time to crack
down on our supposed ally in the war on terror? Also tonight: A judge
in Texas allows a camera into jury deliberations in a capital trial.
Cameras in the courtroom are one thing, but the jury room during a
death penalty case?
Plus: Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz under fire from a group of
Muslim lawyers who want him punished, maybe even disbarred, for what
they call inciting war crimes by saying Israel should destroy
Palestinian homes or villages following terror attacks. What, he's a
lawyer, so, therefore, he can't have an opinion?
Tell us what you think about the show. Send us an e-mail at
abramsreport@msnbc.com.
But topping our agenda: Is Saudi Arabia playing both sides in the war
on terror? Is it time to effectively send in finance terror
investigators? At issue now: checks written by the wife of Saudi
Arabia's U.S. ambassador that may have ended up in the hands of two
9/11 hijackers. Now congressional investigators are taking a closer
MSNBC's Norah O'Donnell has the story.
NORAH O'DONNELL, NBC CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a royal mess
with huge diplomatic ramifications. Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the
Saudi ambassador to the U.S. for two decades, now fighting allegations
charitable donations by his wife, Princess Haifa al-Faisal, may have
unwittingly helped two of the 9/11 hijackers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the last thing the Saudis needed right now,
was some type of direct linkage to the 9/11 plot from no less than the
ambassador's wife.
O'DONNELL: Sources tell NBC News the transfer of money began in 1998.
Prince Bandar sends 15,000 to Osama Basnan, a believed al Qaeda
sympathizer, who asked for money to help with his wife's medical
expenses.
Then Princess Haifa begins sending Basnan's family $2,000 a month. But
at least one of those checks is endorsed over to a woman believed to
be the wife of Omar al-Bayoumi, an alleged al Qaeda advance man in the
U.S. who may have helped two of the 9/11 terrorists who hijacked the
plane that crashed into the Pentagon. (on camera): Both Basnan and al-
Bayoumi, who befriended the hijackers, were interviewed and released
by the FBI. And that has led members of Congress to accuse the Bush
administration of failing to fully investigate a possible financial
connection between the government of Saudi Arabia and the terrorists.
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D), CONNECTICUT: I think it's time for the
president to blow the whistle and remember what he said after
September 11. You're either with us or you're with the terrorists.
O'DONNELL (voice-over): Lieberman accuses the administration of being
unwilling to criticize the Saudis, as the U.S. walks a tightrope,
preparing for a possible war with Iraq and hoping for the support of
Saudi Arabia. Norah O'Donnell, NBC News, the Capitol.
ABRAMS: So, with weapons inspectors now in Iraq, is it time for
effectively money inspectors in Saudi Arabia, or at least in this
country, looking at Saudi finances? Isn't this an even more immediate
concern than Iraq?
Joining us now is Frank Gaffney, former assistant secretary of defense
in the Reagan administration, now president of the Center for Security
policy; and Hussein Ibish, spokesperson for the American Arab Anti-
Discrimination Committee.
Gentlemen, thanks very much for joining us.
All right, Frank, let me start with you.
Isn't it time to really crack down on the Saudis? And I don't know if
it's terror finance investigators. But the bottom line is somehow
thoroughly investigating whether the Saudis have been behind terror,
even indirectly, against the United States.
FRANK GAFFNEY, FORMER ASST. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I think it is time.
It's past time, frankly.
This is a case that, unfortunately, isn't really confined to this
particular episode, troubling though it is, of an ambassador's wife
giving money that may have percolated down to terrorists. What's
really troubling and what really needs investigation and what really
needs the FBI and other agencies of the U.S. government to leave no
stone unturned is: What is the Saudi government, the royal family, and
entities associated with them doing to promote the organizations, the
Wahhabist theology and the agenda that is embraces?
It's very hostile to the United States, very hostile to the West,
around the world, as well as in this country. That's what really
requires investigation.
ABRAMS: Mr. Ibish, aren't you troubled by this possible connection and
the fact that, again and again, we keep hearing about Saudi financial
links to terrorism?
HUSSEIN IBISH, AMERICAN-ARAB ANTI-DISCRIMINATION COMMITTEE: Well, I
think, in this particular case, it's a great big nothing, because, in
order to find something suspicious about these checks that were sent,
you have to make four huge leaps of faith: first, that these
individuals were involved in the 9/11 plot. There's no evidence of
that. They were let go.
ABRAMS: Let me just interrupt you for a second. You mean that there's
a question as to Khalid al-Midhar...
IBISH: No, of course not them -- the two individuals whose wives
received money, Basnan and al-Bayoumi.
ABRAMS: Ah, OK. Fair enough. OK.
IBISH: Right.
So, you have to assume that those two individuals were part of the
plot, which there's no evidence of. And, apparently, the government
doesn't believe it or they wouldn't have let them go. Then you have to
assume that their wives actually gave them this money. Then you would
have to make a third assumption, which is that they used that money
for nefarious purposes; and, fourth, that Princess Haifa knew about
all this. So you have to make four big leaps of faith.
ABRAMS: Let's just even assume for a minute that she didn't know.
Let's give her the benefit...
IBISH: What about the other three wild leaps of faith you need to make
ABRAMS: Hang on. That's what I'm going to ask you about.
IBISH: Sure.
ABRAMS: Let's give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she didn't
know anything. It still smells.
IBISH: I'll tell you why.
ABRAMS: It still feels like the Saudis, because it still feels like,
again and again, indirectly, the Saudis are behind terror. (CROSSTALK)
IBISH: Of course.
Here's the problem. The problem is, 15 of the hijackers were Saudi.
Bin Laden is a Saudi. So, obviously, there is this element of Saudi
society that has produced al Qaeda and has manned it at its muscle and
at its leadership end, and so that, since the hijackers were Saudis,
we now find that they knew other Saudis who knew other Saudis who got
money from a third Saudi. And this is going to keep coming back, since
Saudis know and deal with other Saudis.
I think that that doesn't mean that the Saudi government is behind
terrorism, but it does mean that there is a problem between the United
States and Saudi Arabia. And it does mean that a part of Saudi
society, no doubt a fringe, is definitely sort of a bastion of
fanatical groups like al Qaeda. But it doesn't mean the government is.
GAFFNEY: May I jump in on that point?
ABRAMS: Yes, Mr. Gaffney, respond to the point specifically about the
government. What Mr. Ibish is saying is: no proof that the government
is behind any of this just because there's some bad apples out there.
GAFFNEY: The part of the society that -- he's absolutely right --
there's ample evidence is not only troublesome, but murderously so,
and their murderous enmity is aimed at us -- and the West more
generally, by the way, and, for that matter, others, even Sunni
Muslims...
IBISH: And the Saudi government itself.
GAFFNEY: Who are not Shia -- or, excuse me, not of the Wahhabist view
of Sunni Muslims.
IBISH: That's right.
GAFFNEY: This group, unfortunately, is the object of largess from the
Saudi government.
GAFFNEY: The Wahhabists are the state religion of Saudi Arabia.
They're the problem that we are confronting in so many places,
including here in the United States. They're getting money from the
IBISH: Here's the problem. Well, no. Al Qaeda, no one has been able to
show that al Qaeda...
GAFFNEY: The Wahhabists...
IBISH: Wahhabism is this huge concept - by no means a monolith. You
ascribe a coherence to Wahhabis and a political homogeneity which
doesn't exist.
And, by the way, Frank, I'm surprised you're not blushing crimson when
you say that, because it was you and your buddies in the Reagan
administration who came up with the brilliant idea to collect all of
the most extreme fanatical Muslims in the Middle East, including in
Saudi Arabia, like bin Laden, send them to Afghanistan, launch this
global jihad against the Soviet Union, promote not only Wahhabism, but
this extreme version of fanatical and revolutionary Islamism.
ABRAMS: Even if that's true, it always seems to me it is a cop-out,
because it doesn't deal with today. That's the problem. It always
seems like you're sort of throwing out smoke and mirrors to avoid
dealing with today's issues.
IBISH: These are today's issues, for heaven's sake. Recent history and
our own mistakes and misjudgments are a major issue.
ABRAMS: You just made an allegation to Frank. Let me let him respond.
IBISH: OK. Then you have made one to me, so I get to as well.
GAFFNEY: The problem of Wahhabism is one that been, I think, aborning
for 40 years. There is no question that Osama bin Laden and the
jihadists around him gained an operational base and capability during
the war that the Afghans were waging against the Soviet Union, with
our help.
The problem that we face now is, a decade or two afterwards, the
Saudis government is intimately involved in promoting this same
jihadism worldwide.
ABRAMS: Hussein, final word. I've got 20 seconds. Go ahead.
IBISH: Here's the thing. I agree that Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and
others in the region made a mistake promoting extremely right-wing
Islamic fanaticism. We made that same mistake.
GAFFNEY: Talk about today.
IBISH: Yes, today. By the way, I think that they've realized their
mistake. I hope they have. And I hope we all have.
GAFFNEY: I don't think so. And we ought to hold them accountable.
IBISH: Well another thing that's happening now is that there are a lot
of people in Washington, including Frank here, who wants to use
religious extremists in Iraq against Saddam Hussein. So some people
are not exactly learning their lessons.
ABRAMS: Hussein Ibish, thank you very much for coming on the program.
The reason I'm only thanking Hussein is because I'm going to take on
Frank in our next segment.
Frank, I'm going to ask you, as a supporter of the war on Iraq,
whether we are spending too much time focusing on Iraq and ignoring an
important issue like the one we've just been talking about, like the
Saudi money trail and the war on terror. Are we sacrificing those by
going so hard after Iraq?
-- Lilly
-- signature .
Re: "What kind of an ally is Saudi Arabia?&a - pancho 4:15PM 11/27/2002 () (0)
( default )
: Ibish always argues so well. : ------------------------- : CNN TALKBACK LIVE 15:00 : November 25, 2002 Monday : GUESTS: Stephen Schwartz, Hussein Ibish : ARTHEL NEVILLE, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everybody. Welcome to TALKBACK : LIVE. I'm Arthel Neville. : What kind of an ally is Saudi Arabia? Top lawmakers are asking that : question today as investigators trace a money trail that reportedly : starts with the wife of the Saudi ambassador to the U.S., and could : lead to some of the September 11 killers. : Among many questions is whether Princess Haifa al-Faisal knew who she : was giving -- or giving money to when she sent checks to two Saudi : students in California? : Now, the students apparently have ties to two of the hijackers who : flew the plane into the Pentagon. Saudi officials say the princess had : no idea there was a connection. : ADEL AL JUBEIR, SAUDI FOREIGN POLICY ADVISER: Al Qaeda's objective is : to come after Saudi Arabia as much as it is to come after the U.S., : and the last thing we would do is fund people whose objective is to : murder us. : SEN. RICHARD SHELBY (R), ALABAMA: You can't have it both ways. You : can't finance terrorists. You can't finance charities that you have : reason to believe that will finance terrorism around the world, aid : and abet it, and say, oh, we're great friends of the U.S. : AL JUBEIR: I think a lot of what is being said in Washington, I would : subscribe to, the political debates that are going on. And I think we : happen to the political football these days. : (END VIDEO CLIP) : NEVILLE: OK, here to talk about U.S.-Saudi relations, and whether : money is being funneled to terrorist, is Hussein Ibish, communications : director for the American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee. Hello. : HUSSEIN IBISH, AMER.-ARAB ANTI-DISCRIMINATION CMTE.: Hi, great to be : with you. : NEVILLE: Good. And Stephen Schwartz, a senior fellow at the Foundation : for the Defense of Democracies, he is the author of "The Two Faces of : Islam: The house of Saud, from tradition to terror." And welcome to : you as well, sir. : STEPHEN SCHWARTZ, FDN. FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Good to be here. : NEVILLE: Good. : SCHWARTZ: Thank you. : NEVILLE: Mr. Schwartz, actually, I'm going to start with you today. Is : it possible... : SCHWARTZ: OK. : NEVILLE: Is it possible that Princess Haifa did not know the money was : going to supporters of the 9/11 attack? : SCHWARTZ: Well, yes, it's possible. But one has to understand that the : issue is not how much Princess Haifa knew or any of those details. The : issue is that the Saudi states, the Saudi monarchy is wedded to an : extremist Islamic ideology called Wahhabism. It's the state sect in : Saudi Arabia. It's the Saudi -- a section of the Saudi monarchy's : finances, Wahhabism, and its extension throughout the world. : Wahhabism is what led to 9/11. Wahhabism is a form of Islam that : attacks traditional Muslims, it attacks Shiites, it attacks Jews, : Christians, Hindus and Sikhs (ph). But at the same time, historically : over the last 250 years, the Wahhabi Sabi (ph) alliance that rule in : Arabia has had a two-face policy of attacking the other face and : attacking the traditional Muslims, while depending on the Christian : powers -- Britain, the United States and France -- to keep them in : power in the Peninsula. And that's what's going on today. : I don't think there's any doubt that the whole political culture of : the Sudari (ph) -- that is King Fahd, Prince Sultan, the father of : Prince Bandar, Prince Bandar himself and Prince Nayef -- is a : political culture that fosters extremism. There is simply no doubt : about this. : And to try to make it a question as to whether or not we can find some : particular check signed over to some particular person is not the : issue. The issue is that everybody in the kingdom is indoctrinated in : this extremist ideology. : NEVILLE: So, then... : SCHWARTZ: And what happened on 9/11 was not about Osama bin Laden : having a tactic to separate the U.S. from Saudi Arabia. It was an : inevitable outcome of the extremist ideology that is the official form : of Islam in Saudi Arabia. : IBISH: Well, of course, Mr. Schwartz is wise not to try to make the : allegations that have been made about this check, because to draw : anything suspicious about it, you have to make four huge leaps. : First you have to assume these men were involved in the 9/11 attack. : There is no evidence of that. Secondly, you have to assume that their : wives, to whom the checks were sent, actually signed the money over to : them and that they received it. Then you have to assume that the money : was used somehow for some nefarious purpose. And the fourth step, you : have to assume that the Princess Haifa knew about this. So, this is a : big sort of to-do about nothing. : However, there is an important question lurking behind it, which has : to do with unanswered questions about the way in which al Qaeda : emerged at fringes of Saudi society. Now, Stephen Schwartz has said : it's an inevitable result of all of Saudi political culture. I think : that's absurd! : (CROSSTALK) : SCHWARTZ: I don't think all of Saudi political... : IBISH: Hold on, I think it's... : SCHWARTZ: I said of Wahhabism. : IBISH: Let me finish, Stephen. What I'm saying is, it's pretty clear : that the Saudi government has been a very close ally of the United : States, and that bin Laden is not only attacking the United States, : it's actually attacking also the government of Saudi Arabia. : NEVILLE: So then, having said that, Mr. Ibish -- excuse me, Mr. : Schwartz. Having said that, Mr. Ibish, so you can say with 100 percent : certainty that there is no direct link on the money trail between : Saudi Arabia and terrorism? : IBISH: No, of course I can't say that. What I'm saying is in fact -- : actually, in fact, I'm saying the opposite. What I'm saying is that : there are unanswered questions about how people like Mr. bin Laden and : people like the 15 hijackers emerged. What part of Saudi society do : they come from? What is going on inside the fringe of Saudi discourse : that allows this? I don't think those questions have been answered : for... : (CROSSTALK) : NEVILLE: Can you answer those? : IBISH: Well, I'd like to -- I'd like to... : SCHWARTZ: I can answer them. : IBISH: Oh, no, hold on. I'd like to tell you why -- no, we know what : Stephen Schwartz says. He says it's all an inevitable outcome of Saudi : culture. : NEVILLE: Guys, Mr. Schwartz, Mr. Schwartz, I will give you an : opportunity to answer after Mr. Ibish. : IBISH: Yes, what I'd like to say is that, you know, it's obvious that : both the United States and Saudi Arabia did promote right-wing Muslim : extremism, especially with regard to the war in Afghanistan in the : 1980s. It was our American idea, in the Regan Administration, to : collect, you know, radical Islamic militants, like bin Laden, and send : them to Afghanistan. It was our idea to launch the first great global : jihad. : I mean, this is a mistake that has been made by Saudi Arabia, by the : United States, Pakistan, by a bunch of countries at a time when we : thought it was a good idea in fighting the Cold War. Now, it's classic : blow-back that's come back to haunt us. : NEVILLE: Mr. Schwartz, I know you want to respond to that. I will give : you an opportunity. I have to take a break right now. When we come : back, are Saudi-U.S. relations in a crisis mode? We'll find out. : Plus, I want to take your calls and e-mails later about today's : question of the day: If the government changes the way we are all : warned about terrorism alerts, attacks and other crises, how would you : like to be notified? By phone, pager, Internet, television, radio or : whatever? : Give me a call, or you can e-mail me, and we're back in a moment. : Don't go anywhere. : (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (NEWSBREAK) : (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) : SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: What's going on is the Saudis are : trying to catch up with 10-12 years of very bad policy. I am doubtful : that there was an intentional transfer of money from the ambassador's : wife to the hijackers. There's a long pattern of the Saudis : essentially buying off extremism in their country. They have built : thousands of madrasas. They have charities that they know were not : doing good things. (END VIDEO CLIP) : NEVILLE: And welcome back, everyone. I'm Arthel Neville. : We're talking about U.S.-Saudi relations in light of an investigation : into money that possibly made its way from the wife of the Saudi : ambassador to the U.S. to a couple of students with alleged ties to : September 11 terrorists. : And, Mr. Schwartz, before the break, I promised I would let you : respond to Mr. Ibish's comments. : SCHWARTZ: Well, first of all, this fairy tale created by the Saudis : and their apologists about how Osama bin Laden is a bigger threat to : them as he is to us is just ridiculous. There has been no terror : campaign by Osama bin Laden inside Saudi Arabia. There were... : IBISH: Well... : SCHWARTZ: Please don't interrupt me, Hussein. : IBISH: All right. : SCHWARTZ: There have been two incidents that were ambiguous, one of : which the Saudis tried to blame on Iran. The fact is, Osama bin Laden : has never called for the overthrow of the Saudi monarchy, Osama bin : Laden has never even named or attacked by name a single member of the : royal family, and Osama bin Laden does not call for armed struggle or : terrorism inside Saudi Arabia. : NEVILLE: And that implies, what, sir? : IBISH: Well, it's not true. : SCHWARTZ: And that implies... : IBISH: That is absolutely not true. : SCHWARTZ: He represents an ultra radical wing of the monarchy. : IBISH: You know, you should try listening to some of his speeches : sometime. And the man... : SCHWARTZ: I have read all of Osama's text. : IBISH: Hold on, Stephen. The guy goes on endless diatribes about the : corrupt governments that have defiled... (CROSSTALK) : SCHWARTZ: He does not name names. He does not call for overthrow. He : calls for it... : IBISH: He condemns all of them, but he specifically condemns... : SCHWARTZ: No, you're wrong, Hussein. You're wrong. : IBISH: He specifically condemns... : SCHWARTZ: Hussein, you're wrong. : IBISH: ... those that are in bed with the United States. : (CROSSTALK) : SCHWARTZ: You're wrong, Hussein. You're wrong! : IBISH: I am absolutely right. : SCHWARTZ: Osama bin Laden calls for a change in the policies of the : government, and his discourse... : IBISH: Well, he... : (CROSSTALK) : SCHWARTZ: ... in addressing the royal family is that of a loyal : opponent. He does not... : (CROSSTALK) : IBISH: I don't agree with that at all. I think that that is a : ridiculous mischaracterization. : SCHWARTZ: ... calling for the overthrow of the Saudi regime. : IBISH: No, that's a ridiculous mischaracterization. : SCHWARTZ: It's not a mischaracterization. It's a fact. : IBISH: Listen to me. Now, Stephen, listen to me. He has condemned... : SCHWARTZ: Wait! I don't see how why I should have to listen to a : continuing diatribe by you. : IBISH: ... in the strongest terms all governments that cooperate with : the United States... : SCHWARTZ: In defense of the Saudi regime. : IBISH: ... and that's clearly his... : (CROSSTALK) : SCHWARTZ: Why are you defending the most reactionary regime in the : world? : IBISH: I'm not defending anybody. : SCHWARTZ: You are defending them! : IBISH: I'm telling you what exactly, bin Laden says, which you don't : seem able to comprehend. : SCHWARTZ: You're an apologist for them! : IBISH: Where do you get that? I'm not an apologist of anyone, you are : misrepresenting some basic facts. : SCHWARTZ: You're trying to clean up their skirts. Why are you doing : this? I don't understand it. : IBISH: What is this absurdity? I'm simply telling you what bin Laden : says all the time. : (CROSSTALK) : SCHWARTZ: I'm telling you what bin Laden says, and bin Laden has never : called for the overthrow of the Saudi monarchy... : IBISH: That's your -- what he has done... : SCHWARTZ: ... has never mentioned a single member of the monarchy by : name... : IBISH: What he has done... : SCHWARTZ: ... and does not conduct terror inside in Saudi Arabia. : IBISH: Steven, first of all, all I'm doing is telling you the truth, : which is that... : SCHWARTZ: No, no, I'm telling you the truth, Hussein! : IBISH: Will you stop interrupting me? : SCHWARTZ: You're masking the truth. : IBISH: No! What I'm telling you simply what he says, but you somehow : can't grasp. : (CROSSTALK) : NEVILLE: OK, gentlemen, I am going to step in right here, because I : have Art in the audience from California. : IBISH: Thank you! What nonsense! : UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hi. If I can get a word in edgewise here. : IBISH: Please. : UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just would like to ask Mr. Schwartz, to what : extent he thinks the Saudi royal families in fact are committed to : this brand of extreme Islam, and to what extent they are appeasing the : radicals just to keep the lid on? : SCHWARTZ: They are the radicals. They are not appeasing the radicals. : Wahhabism is the state religion of Saudi Arabia. Now, inside the royal : family there is a faction of hard Wahhabis represented by the King : Fahd, by Prince Sultan, Prince Bandar and Prince Nayef. There's also a : faction of the royal family that's not Wahhabi. Crown Prince Abdullah : is not a Wahhabi. I reject completely and reset Hussein Ibish saying : that I said the whole of Saudi political culture is Wahhabi. : IBISH: You know... : SCHWARTZ: The whole of it is not. : IBISH: The problem is... : SCHWARTZ: Crown Prince Abdullah is not a Wahhabi. : IBISH: Crown Prince Abdullah is the senior-most member of the : government. : SCHWARTZ: Let me finish -- let me finish my time. : IBISH: You're using a sledgehammer when you need to be using a : scalpel, and you're totally confused about this subject. : SCHWARTZ: Look the point is, there is a section of the royal family : that is not Wahhabi. : IBISH: It makes no sense. You've just contradicted yourself, by the : way, and not for the first time this afternoon. : SCHWARTZ: There is a section of the royal family, a faction of the : royal family that represents the extreme Wahhabi point of view. There : is a tension between them and Crown Prince Abdullah. There is growing : tension between the monarch, the royal family and the people of Saudi : Arabia and I'm on the side of the people in Saudi Arabia against these : terrorists! : IBISH: If you can readily distinguish between Crown Prince Abdullah's : views and King Fahd's views, but you can't see a difference between : bin Laden's view and Fahd's views, then you're missing the picture : altogether. : SCHWARTZ: I'm not missing the picture. : IBISH: And it's so obvious. : SCHWARTZ: I'm not trying to pretty up a bunch of terrorists. : IBISH: Oh, back to that foolishness again. I'm not prettying anything. : I'm telling you exactly what it is. : SCHWARTZ: No. : NEVILLE: So, gentlemen, I ask both of you this question, which I want : the answer after the break: Can the U.S. trust Saudi Arabia? : We're going to talk more about this. I've got some audience comments : to share with you as well. Don't go anywhere. TALKBACK LIVE continues : in a moment. : (COMMERCIAL BREAK) (NEWS ALERT) : NEVILLE: And welcome back, everybody. We talking about U.S.- Saudi : relations. Are they extreme, those relations? I want to ask Mr. : Schwartz if you think this latest information regarding a possible : money trail from Princess Haifa to some suspected supporters of the : 9/11 terrorists. : SCHWARTZ: Look, the Saudi government right after 9/11 should have done : what any normal government in the world would have done. They should : have declared they were going to carry out a full investigation, a : thorough and transparent investigation of every aspect of 9/11 and : they would hand the results off to us. For a little over a year now : they have been stonewalling us. They sent al-Jubir (ph) on to give : these patronizing little lectures about fairness. They refuse to tell : us the truth, they refuese to be up front with us. It's time for the : United States to get the accounting from Saudi Arabia that we need of : the funding, recruitment and backing... : NEVILLE: But will they do that, Mr. Schwartz? Will they do that? : Because the U.S. depends on Saudi Arabia for oil and for military... : SCHWARTZ: Well, they have to do it. They have to do it. And if they : don't do it, then we have to find ways to compel them to do it. And if : they still do not do it, then we have to completely revise our : relationship with them. : IBISH: Do I get to answer the question? : NEVILLE: Yes, you do. : IBISH: OK. I mean, I think it's clear the Saudi government is a close : ally of the United States. I also think it's clear that there are : serious strains within that relationship. And the fact that this non- : story has become a story indicates that those... : NEVILLE: How do you say that this is a non-story, Mr. Ibish? : IBISH: Well, it's a non-story because of the four leaps of faith you : have to make to make this almost certainly innocent thing into : something that's suspicious. : NEVILLE: Not necessarily, sir, because 15 of the 19 hijackers were : from Saudi Arabia. So there are some dots that people might connect. : IBISH: Well that's my point. That's exactly my -- that's my point. My : point is, this check business is, obviously, you know, not a story. : But the fact is, that there is this problem between the United States : and certainly an element of Saudi society. That's what actually : propels this non-story about checks into being something that makes : people interested. : And I think also that it goes further than that, because there's a lot : of hostility towards Saudi Arabia in this country as well. And I think : also... : NEVILLE: And why is that? : IBISH: It also... : NEVILLE: If that's the case, why is that, sir? : IBISH: Well, I think there's mutual recrimination here. I think : there's alienation, and I think that it comes from a mixture of anger : about the attacks. I think that also there are people with an agenda, : frankly, an anti-Arab agenda, who want to trash all Arabs -- : especially Arab countries that are close to the United States. And I : think that there's been a lot of anti-Arab propaganda in the : entertainment industry and in the news media that has effected -- : deeply and badly effected U.S. relations with all of its Arab allies. : NEVILLE: I'm going back to the Dr. Acadia (ph) to hear your response : to this. : ARCADIA: Well, only thing I can say about this, if you are a friend, : this is the time the United States is at war with -- or about to enter : war. Show us the friendship. Do not play games like this. If you are a : true friend, show your friendship. : (APPLAUSE) : NEVILLE: Thank you very much, sir. And Mehesh (ph) here had something : to say. : MEHESH: Saudi Arabia, which is ruled by religious sacks that are : heavily controlled by (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and they've been funding the : organizations that are extreme in their thoughts. Like in Kashmir, : India, the Taliban was funded heavily by Pakistan at that time. And : they were funded by (UNINTELLIGIBLE) also. Any time you fund the : organizations like that, you can never be sure if the money will not : go in the hands of terrorists. : NEVILLE: Thank you very much, sir. And I have Mark Anthony (ph) over : here in the audience who has something to say. : MARK ANTHONY: Yes, just a basic comment. I really believe that Saudi : Arabia is not an ally of the United States. And it's not because of : anti-Arab or anything like that. I mean, if a person shows exactly : their true colors, you only can call a spade a spade. The bottom line : is this, over the past year the Saudis have done x, y and z, as far as : not helping with the war on terrorism. : IBISH: Well, that's not what the government says. You know the Bush : administration, every senior official who has been asked about this, : has said that Saudi Arabia has been very cooperative. I agree, that : there are unanswered questions, but I think that they're not being : asked by the Saudis, they're not being asked by us, because we're both : afraid of the answers, frankly. We are afraid of our own history in : promoting this kind of horrible politics. They are afraid of theirs. : There are no clean hands in this mess. : MARK ANTHONY: The bottom line is this: the United States asks for : military assistance to use bases to launch attacks on Afghanistan. As : a prior military service man that served in Desert Storm and Desert : Shield, I believe that it's a slap in the face for all of the families : that lost people over there in Saudi Arabia fighting to gain freedom : for their country, because our country is already free. We went over : there to help them out, and now that we need them to fight this global : war -- hold on second, this global war on terrorism, the Saudis said : no. And I really believe that is a slap in the face. But the last : point is this. I real believe that the United States should rethink : who their true friends are. And remember, you need to keep your : enemies close -- correction -- well, thank you. The bottom line is we : got to do a little bit better in choosing our friends, and the Saudis : they're not one of them. : NEVILLE: We know what you were saying. Thank you very much, Mark : Anthony (ph). Mr. Ibish, I'll give you 10 seconds. I'm out of time. : SCHWARTZ: Wait a minute, what about me? : IBISH: I don't understand what he is talking about. You must mean : Iraq, because the United States has not asked for permission with : regard to Afghanistan. If it's about Iraq, the war on Iraq is not : connected to : 9/11. Iraq was not involved in 9/11; this is a very different thing. : And if the Saudis don't want to get involved in something that many : people in our own government, our own generals, our own CIA, our own : State Department, many people think is a terrible idea, they certainly : have that right. Maybe we should listen to them. (CROSSTALK) : NEVILLE: OK, Mr. Schwartz 10 seconds to you. : SCHWARTZ: Thank you. Ten seconds is fine. : IBISH: I mean, they're not obliged to embrace all our policies, : especially unwise ones. : SCHWARTZ: Well, all I have to say is this is not about being anti- : Arab. I am not anti-Arab. I have no hidden agendas except that I want : the people of Arabia to enter the road of a transition to democracy. I : want this powerful wealthy society called Saudi Arabia right now to : become a modern normal state. : NEVILLE: That's been ten seconds. : IBISH: And I'll go along with all of that. Yeah, I'll go along with : that. : OK. Hussein Ibish and Stephen Schwartz, thank you very much, both, for : the lively discussion. We enjoyed both of your perspectives. Thanks so : much for being here on TALKBACK LIVE today. : And up next, some therapists say the only way most alcoholics can : regain those lost weekends is to part company with the bottle forever. : But our next guest insists problem drinkers may not have to be that : dry. Could there be sipping room for the reforms? We'll find out after : this break. TALKBACK LIVE continues in a moment. : (APPLAUSE) (COMMERCIAL BREAK) : : MSNBC : THE ABRAMS REPORT : 18:00 November 25, 2002 Monday : GUESTS: Frank Gaffney; Hussein Ibish : DAN ABRAMS, HOST: Hi, everyone. : On the agenda tonight: With U.N. weapons inspectors in Iraq, is it : time to send financial inspectors to Saudi Arabia or at least look : real hard at all of their finances? A report out today says a Saudi : princess who also happens to be the wife of the Saudi ambassador to : the U.S. may have helped fund the hijackers. And, remember, 15 of the : 19 hijackers were from Saudi Arabia. Question: Is it time to crack : down on our supposed ally in the war on terror? Also tonight: A judge : in Texas allows a camera into jury deliberations in a capital trial. : Cameras in the courtroom are one thing, but the jury room during a : death penalty case? : Plus: Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz under fire from a group of : Muslim lawyers who want him punished, maybe even disbarred, for what : they call inciting war crimes by saying Israel should destroy : Palestinian homes or villages following terror attacks. What, he's a : lawyer, so, therefore, he can't have an opinion? : Tell us what you think about the show. Send us an e-mail at : abramsreport@msnbc.com. : But topping our agenda: Is Saudi Arabia playing both sides in the war : on terror? Is it time to effectively send in finance terror : investigators? At issue now: checks written by the wife of Saudi : Arabia's U.S. ambassador that may have ended up in the hands of two : 9/11 hijackers. Now congressional investigators are taking a closer : look. : MSNBC's Norah O'Donnell has the story. : (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) : NORAH O'DONNELL, NBC CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a royal mess : with huge diplomatic ramifications. Prince Bandar bin Sultan, the : Saudi ambassador to the U.S. for two decades, now fighting allegations : charitable donations by his wife, Princess Haifa al-Faisal, may have : unwittingly helped two of the 9/11 hijackers. : UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is the last thing the Saudis needed right now, : was some type of direct linkage to the 9/11 plot from no less than the : ambassador's wife. : O'DONNELL: Sources tell NBC News the transfer of money began in 1998. : Prince Bandar sends 15,000 to Osama Basnan, a believed al Qaeda : sympathizer, who asked for money to help with his wife's medical : expenses. : Then Princess Haifa begins sending Basnan's family $2,000 a month. But : at least one of those checks is endorsed over to a woman believed to : be the wife of Omar al-Bayoumi, an alleged al Qaeda advance man in the : U.S. who may have helped two of the 9/11 terrorists who hijacked the : plane that crashed into the Pentagon. (on camera): Both Basnan and al- : Bayoumi, who befriended the hijackers, were interviewed and released : by the FBI. And that has led members of Congress to accuse the Bush : administration of failing to fully investigate a possible financial : connection between the government of Saudi Arabia and the terrorists. : SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D), CONNECTICUT: I think it's time for the : president to blow the whistle and remember what he said after : September 11. You're either with us or you're with the terrorists. : O'DONNELL (voice-over): Lieberman accuses the administration of being : unwilling to criticize the Saudis, as the U.S. walks a tightrope, : preparing for a possible war with Iraq and hoping for the support of : Saudi Arabia. Norah O'Donnell, NBC News, the Capitol. : (END VIDEOTAPE) : ABRAMS: So, with weapons inspectors now in Iraq, is it time for : effectively money inspectors in Saudi Arabia, or at least in this : country, looking at Saudi finances? Isn't this an even more immediate : concern than Iraq? : Joining us now is Frank Gaffney, former assistant secretary of defense : in the Reagan administration, now president of the Center for Security : policy; and Hussein Ibish, spokesperson for the American Arab Anti- : Discrimination Committee. : Gentlemen, thanks very much for joining us. : All right, Frank, let me start with you. : Isn't it time to really crack down on the Saudis? And I don't know if : it's terror finance investigators. But the bottom line is somehow : thoroughly investigating whether the Saudis have been behind terror, : even indirectly, against the United States. : FRANK GAFFNEY, FORMER ASST. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I think it is time. : It's past time, frankly. : This is a case that, unfortunately, isn't really confined to this : particular episode, troubling though it is, of an ambassador's wife : giving money that may have percolated down to terrorists. What's : really troubling and what really needs investigation and what really : needs the FBI and other agencies of the U.S. government to leave no : stone unturned is: What is the Saudi government, the royal family, and : entities associated with them doing to promote the organizations, the : Wahhabist theology and the agenda that is embraces? : It's very hostile to the United States, very hostile to the West, : around the world, as well as in this country. That's what really : requires investigation. : ABRAMS: Mr. Ibish, aren't you troubled by this possible connection and : the fact that, again and again, we keep hearing about Saudi financial : links to terrorism? : HUSSEIN IBISH, AMERICAN-ARAB ANTI-DISCRIMINATION COMMITTEE: Well, I : think, in this particular case, it's a great big nothing, because, in : order to find something suspicious about these checks that were sent, : you have to make four huge leaps of faith: first, that these : individuals were involved in the 9/11 plot. There's no evidence of : that. They were let go. : ABRAMS: Let me just interrupt you for a second. You mean that there's : a question as to Khalid al-Midhar... : IBISH: No, of course not them -- the two individuals whose wives : received money, Basnan and al-Bayoumi. : ABRAMS: Ah, OK. Fair enough. OK. : IBISH: Right. : So, you have to assume that those two individuals were part of the : plot, which there's no evidence of. And, apparently, the government : doesn't believe it or they wouldn't have let them go. Then you have to : assume that their wives actually gave them this money. Then you would : have to make a third assumption, which is that they used that money : for nefarious purposes; and, fourth, that Princess Haifa knew about : all this. So you have to make four big leaps of faith. : ABRAMS: Let's just even assume for a minute that she didn't know. : Let's give her the benefit... : IBISH: What about the other three wild leaps of faith you need to make : first? : ABRAMS: Hang on. That's what I'm going to ask you about. : IBISH: Sure. : ABRAMS: Let's give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she didn't : know anything. It still smells. : IBISH: I'll tell you why. : ABRAMS: It still feels like the Saudis, because it still feels like, : again and again, indirectly, the Saudis are behind terror. (CROSSTALK) : IBISH: Of course. : Here's the problem. The problem is, 15 of the hijackers were Saudi. : Bin Laden is a Saudi. So, obviously, there is this element of Saudi : society that has produced al Qaeda and has manned it at its muscle and : at its leadership end, and so that, since the hijackers were Saudis, : we now find that they knew other Saudis who knew other Saudis who got : money from a third Saudi. And this is going to keep coming back, since : Saudis know and deal with other Saudis. : I think that that doesn't mean that the Saudi government is behind : terrorism, but it does mean that there is a problem between the United : States and Saudi Arabia. And it does mean that a part of Saudi : society, no doubt a fringe, is definitely sort of a bastion of : fanatical groups like al Qaeda. But it doesn't mean the government is. : GAFFNEY: May I jump in on that point? : ABRAMS: Yes, Mr. Gaffney, respond to the point specifically about the : government. What Mr. Ibish is saying is: no proof that the government : is behind any of this just because there's some bad apples out there. : GAFFNEY: The part of the society that -- he's absolutely right -- : there's ample evidence is not only troublesome, but murderously so, : and their murderous enmity is aimed at us -- and the West more : generally, by the way, and, for that matter, others, even Sunni : Muslims... : IBISH: And the Saudi government itself. : GAFFNEY: Who are not Shia -- or, excuse me, not of the Wahhabist view : of Sunni Muslims. : IBISH: That's right. : GAFFNEY: This group, unfortunately, is the object of largess from the : Saudi government. : (CROSSTALK) : GAFFNEY: The Wahhabists are the state religion of Saudi Arabia. : They're the problem that we are confronting in so many places, : including here in the United States. They're getting money from the : Saudi government. : IBISH: Here's the problem. Well, no. Al Qaeda, no one has been able to : show that al Qaeda... : GAFFNEY: The Wahhabists... : (CROSSTALK) : IBISH: Wahhabism is this huge concept - by no means a monolith. You : ascribe a coherence to Wahhabis and a political homogeneity which : doesn't exist. : And, by the way, Frank, I'm surprised you're not blushing crimson when : you say that, because it was you and your buddies in the Reagan : administration who came up with the brilliant idea to collect all of : the most extreme fanatical Muslims in the Middle East, including in : Saudi Arabia, like bin Laden, send them to Afghanistan, launch this : global jihad against the Soviet Union, promote not only Wahhabism, but : this extreme version of fanatical and revolutionary Islamism. : (CROSSTALK) : ABRAMS: Even if that's true, it always seems to me it is a cop-out, : because it doesn't deal with today. That's the problem. It always : seems like you're sort of throwing out smoke and mirrors to avoid : dealing with today's issues. : IBISH: These are today's issues, for heaven's sake. Recent history and : our own mistakes and misjudgments are a major issue. : ABRAMS: You just made an allegation to Frank. Let me let him respond. : IBISH: OK. Then you have made one to me, so I get to as well. : GAFFNEY: The problem of Wahhabism is one that been, I think, aborning : for 40 years. There is no question that Osama bin Laden and the : jihadists around him gained an operational base and capability during : the war that the Afghans were waging against the Soviet Union, with : our help. : The problem that we face now is, a decade or two afterwards, the : Saudis government is intimately involved in promoting this same : jihadism worldwide. : (CROSSTALK) : ABRAMS: Hussein, final word. I've got 20 seconds. Go ahead. : IBISH: Here's the thing. I agree that Saudi Arabia and Pakistan and : others in the region made a mistake promoting extremely right-wing : Islamic fanaticism. We made that same mistake. : GAFFNEY: Talk about today. : IBISH: Yes, today. By the way, I think that they've realized their : mistake. I hope they have. And I hope we all have. : (CROSSTALK) : GAFFNEY: I don't think so. And we ought to hold them accountable. : IBISH: Well another thing that's happening now is that there are a lot : of people in Washington, including Frank here, who wants to use : religious extremists in Iraq against Saddam Hussein. So some people : are not exactly learning their lessons. : ABRAMS: Hussein Ibish, thank you very much for coming on the program. : The reason I'm only thanking Hussein is because I'm going to take on : Frank in our next segment. : Frank, I'm going to ask you, as a supporter of the war on Iraq, : whether we are spending too much time focusing on Iraq and ignoring an : important issue like the one we've just been talking about, like the : Saudi money trail and the war on terror. Are we sacrificing those by : going so hard after Iraq? : (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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Q: angular routing without webserver to load templates Is it possibile in angular to load templates without web server,
I found one example here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/angular/LXzaAWqWEus
but for me it is only printing templates paths not content for them.
Is there any working example for this?

A: I'm ignoring the "no web server" part of the question. Here's an example on how you can put a template directly in a script tag and use it with a directive.

    <test>best</test>
    <test>optimal</test>

template in script tag jsfiddle

redpajama_set_name: RedPajamaStackExchange


text:
Nigeria's Boko Haram (Profile)
Rafiu Ajakaye, Nigeria
BAUCHI, Nigeria – Boko Haram, a radical Islamist group in Nigeria, was founded in 2002 in Maiduguri, the capital of Borno state, by self-proclaimed religious teacher Mohammed Yusuf, who is thought to be in his mid-30s and has considerable private wealth.
Locals are not willing to offer much information on the founding and activities of the group, owing to the sensitivity of the issues at stake and the ongoing crackdown.
Boko Haram does not have a known strategy of recruiting members.
Members include former university lecturers and students who dropped out once they joined, as well as illiterate, jobless youths.
The group reportedly includes members who come from neighboring Chad.
Its members pray in separate mosques and don't mix with local people. They sport long beards and wear red or black heads covers.
Since its launch, the group has been pushing for application of Shari`ah across Nigeria's 36 states.
In 2004, it moved to Kanamma in Yobe state, close to the border with Niger, where it set up a base from which it attacked nearby police outposts.
A minor religious unrest in Bauchi was blamed on the group in 2004, but nothing has since been heard of it.
But the group came to prominence in 2009 after a series of attacks on police stations and government buildings, which left hundreds of people killed and injured.
Anti-West
Boko Haram means "Western education is sinful" in the Hausa language spoken across northern Nigeria and sums up the main pillar of the group's ideology.
Many believe the group members may have been brainwashed into seeing western education as evil.
They speak only Arabic, as they believe English is the language with which the West spread immorality and corruption worldwide.
The group also has a deep-seated aversion for anything modelled after the Christian West, from mode of dressing to conduct of public affairs.
Although security agencies have launched investigation into activities of this group, no information has pointed yet to its source of funding.
Police records do not show any of its leaders on wanted list and it is unclear if the State Security Service (SSS) has anything regarding the group.
Experts and politicians believe that Boko Haram, despite brandishing a religious banner, is only seeking political ends.
Some link its founding and funding to politicians who want stranglehold on the political terrain, using members of Boko Haram to cow opposition and rig elections, if need be.
They maintain that the resurgence of such militant groups will continue until governments tackle unemployment and deliver on their campaign promises to the people.
Islam Muslim Christian Boko Haram Nigeria

redpajama_set_name: RedPajamaCommonCrawl


Carlsen is the two-time reigning World Chess Champion having first taken the title from GM Viswanathan Anand in November 2013 and later defending the title in 2014. He beefed up his already impressive resume in 2014 by winning both the FIDE Rapid and Blitz World Championships, making him the first-ever triple-crown World Champion of chess.
Despite just 24 years of age, not much of Carlsen's current resume comes as a shock; he has been on the chess world's radar for more than a decade. Carlsen obtained his first IM norm in January 2003 and officially earned the title in August while still only 12 years old. He earned his first GM norm by winning the Corus Chess Tournament in January 2004 and was awarded the GM title that April. This impressive feat made him the third youngest GM in history at 13 years, 4 months and 27 days. Later that year, he became the youngest to appear in a Candidates Tournament - a tournament he has qualified for on four separate occasions.
In early 2008, Carlsen made his first break into the world's top five where he has since remained. In November 2009, he became only the fifth and the youngest ever to pass the 2800 rating barrier. FIDE named Carlsen the world's No. 1 player for the first time in January 2010, making him the youngest to ever hold the highly-prized rank at 19 years and 32 days old. In January 2013, he passed former World Champion Garry Kasparov's rating record of 2851 -- a bar Carlsen raised to 2882 in May 2014. He currently is rated 2853, a full 37 points clear of the world No. 2, Viswanathan Anand.
Famous Washington Post columnist Lubomir Kavalek dubbed Carlsen the "Mozart of Chess" when he was just 14, a moniker that has since become entrenched by a recent CBS 60 Minutes interview. He is known for an endgame prowess amongst the greatest in history, as well as an unusually wide range of openings, which frustrates his opponents in their preparation against him.
While growing up in Tamil Nadu, Anand learned to play chess at the age of six from his mother who was incredibly passionate about the game. Anand shared his mother's love for the game and, by age 14, had become the National Sub-Junior Chess Champion. Soon after, he won the Indian Chess Championship three years in a row from 1986-1988.
Anand became the first Indian grandmaster by the age of 18. In 1991, he proved he would have a bright future in professional chess by winning Reggio Emilia, the most prestigious tournament in Italy, leaps ahead of World Champions Garry Kasparov and Anatoly Karpov.
The Indian player has brought a lot of pride and joy to his home country and is the recipient of several national awards. For 1991-1992, Anand won the first ever Rajiv Gandhi Khel Ratna Award, India's highest honor given for achievement in sports. He then received the Padma Vibhushan, the second highest civilian award in the country, from the Indian president in 2007.
Winning his first of five World Championships in 2000, he has been an elite grandmaster for decades. As one of only ten chess players to ever be rated over 2800, Anand peaked at 2820 in January 2011. Anand is making his first Sinquefield Cup appearance this year, coming in as the second highest rated player in the world at 2816.
Taught to play at eight years old, Topalov was quickly discovered as a prodigy. However, he finally adopted into the game at 12 years old by IM Silvio Danailov who began a mentoring relationship that still exists to this day. Within two years, Topalov had claimed his first global crown as the 1989 World Youth Champion U14 and, three years after that, became a grandmaster. He has led Bulgaria's national team since 1994.
Topalov ascended into the world's elite and soon began knocking on the door of the World Championship, coming close in 2002 by reaching the finals of the Candidates Tournament. Topalov broke through in 2005, emerging from an 8-player, double round-robin FIDE World Chess Championship with an outstanding performance rating of 2890 and winning the World Champion title by 1½ points.
He lost his status the following year to GM Vladimir Kramnik in the highly controversial 2006 FIDE reunification match for the World Championship, but Topalov's presence among the world's elite never wavered. He has competed in several more Candidates Tournaments and was challenged again for the World Champion crown in 2010 against the then-reigning GM Viswanathan Anand. In this instance, Topalov narrowly lost by a 5½-6½ score.
Ranked in the world's top-10 players for nearly six years, Nakamura has been the longtime U.S. No. 1 grandmaster. Along with two other hopefuls, GM Fabiano Caruana and GM Wesley So, now is their best shot to bring America its' first World Champion since Bobby Fischer. Nakmura has qualified for the Candidates Tournament for the first time this year as he placed second overall in the 2014-2015 FIDE Grand Prix. He is hopeful to challenge Magnus Carlsen in the 2016 World Chess Championship.
A child prodigy in every sense of the word, Nakamura made a fast impact on U.S. chess by knocking down nearly every age record on his way to the top. At one time, he was the youngest American master in history (10 years, 79 days), the youngest American international master (13 years, 2 months) and eventually the youngest American grandmaster (15 years, 79 days) – breaking Fischer's record by three months.
Nakamura has collected numerous titles and championships since the age of 13 when he first arrived onto the national scene by becoming the 2001 U.S. Junior Champion. He quickly confirmed his place as one of chess' great elites, shocking the world with a sweet sixteen appearance in the 2004 FIDE World Cup and then grabbing his first of four U.S. Championships the following year.
He is a recipient of the prestigious Samford Chess Fellowship (2005), the 2007 National Open champion and a three-time North American Open champion. He was an individual bronze medalist in the 2006 and 2008 World Olympiad as well as the gold medalist on the first board of the 2010 World Team Championship, where the United States placed second.
This chess player only gets better as he gets faster, gracing the top of the world in Blitz chess when FIDE began publishing its list in 2014. Nakamura finished with bronze at the FIDE World Blitz Championship in June 2014 and currently sits at No.1 on FIDE's Rapid rating list at 2850.
Fabiano Caruana is an American-born, yet purely Italian, grandmaster whose rapid advance into the elite ranks of chess has earned him the reputation as the next rival to Magnus Carlsen for the World Championship. He is currently No. 5 in the world with a rating of 2808, only the eighth player in history to pass the 2800 barrier.
The 23-year-old was born in Miami, Florida and introduced to chess through an afterschool program as a five-year-old in Brooklyn, NY -- living in the same neighborhood where Bobby Fischer was raised. He played in his first tournament that same year at the Susan Polgar Chess Center in Queens, NY. This eventually led him to landing his first coach in NM Bruce Pandolfini at the young age of six.
At 10, Caruana became the youngest American to defeat a grandmaster in a sanctioned event. By 12 years old, he was a FIDE master, winner of several national scholastic championships as well as two-time gold medals winner in Pan-American Youth Championships. From there, chess was his future, and his family moved to Europe to see it through.
He officially switched federations to Italy in October 2005, though he still shared dual citizenship with the U.S. and remained a good-standing Life Member of the USCF at the time. He found homes in Madrid and Budapest, as well as coaches in IM Boris Zlotnik and GM Alexander Chernin. At 14 years, 11 months and 20 days, Caruana became the youngest GM in the history of both Italy and the United States, beating out the previously set record by Hikaru Nakamura.
Today, Caruana is a four-time Italian national champion and one of the hottest players on the global scene as one of only five players currently above the 2800 rating barrier. His first place performance in the 2014 Sinquefield Cup was one for the ages; Caruana won his first 7 games and finished undefeated with 8½ out of 10 points.
This Dutch chess prodigy has truly lived an international life. Born in Russia in 1994 to a Russian mother and Nepalese father, Giri learned the game from a very early age. At the ripe age of eight, his family moved to Sapporo, Japan, where he became a member of the local chess club. In 2008, Giri moved to the Netherlands and began playing for the national team right away. Giri is fluent in six different languages: English, Dutch, Russian, Japanese, Nepalese, and German.
Giri had great success as a junior including winning first place in both the Russian Higher League U14 Boys Championship and the St. Petersburg Boys U16. In 2008, he won the Blokadny St. Petersburg Open and the Petrograd Winter Open.
In January 2009, Giri split second place at Corus Chess Group C in Wijk aan Zee to earn his final GM norm and achieve the grandmaster title at the age of 14 years, 7 months, and 2 days. The following year, he won the Corus Chess Group B with 9/13 points. Giri is also a four-time Dutch Chess Champion and has represented the Netherlands at three Chess Olympiads.
In 2012, Giri won the 54th Reggio Emilia Tournament despite coming in as the lowest-rated participant. He is the youngest player to ever win the prestigious Italian tournament.
The 2015 Sinquefield Cup will see the first participation from grandmaster Wesley So, who recently transferred to the U.S. Chess Federation from his home country, the Philippines. His arrival to the USCF was synonymous with his arrival as one of the World's top-10 players. So has already begun pushing the envelope to become the nation's highest-rated grandmaster, a title Hikaru Nakamura has owned for years.
So learned chess from his father at age six and was competing in junior tournaments by nine years old. By earning his grandmaster title at the age of 14 years, 1 month, and 28 days, So completed the trifecta as the Philippines' youngest-ever national champion, international master and grandmaster. Considered a chess prodigy, he is the tenth-youngest GM in the world.
So came to the U.S. in August 2012, enrolling at Webster University in St. Louis and guided by Susan Polgar and her SPICE Program. There, he made the jump from top-100 to top-10 in the world, entrenching Webster as a powerhouse collegiate program and leading the school in back-to-back national titles along the way.
Last October, So won the inaugural Millionaire Open in Las Vegas, along with its $100,000 prize, then returned to St. Louis to lead the Arch Bishops to their first-ever U.S. Chess League Championship.
So participated in his first world-elite tournament with a fourth-place result in 2014 at the 77th Tata Steel Chess Tournament in Wijk aan Zee, Holland. He returned this past January and tied for second place, just a half-point behind winner and World Champion Magnus Carlsen.
Introduced to the game by his father at age four, Grischuk had phenomenal success as a junior player. The Moscow native piled up championship victories in the 1990s by winning the U10, U12, U14, and U16 Russian Championships. Already on the international chess radar at a young age, 16-year-old Grischuk was already top-100 in the world and famously reached the semifinals of the 2000 FIDE World Championship, losing to Alexey Shirov in the penultimate round.
Well-known for being one of the best blitz players in the world, Grischuk is the winner of two World Blitz Championship – first in 2006 and later in 2012. In addition, he won the Moscow Blitz Championship in 2009. He is also one of the world's strongest rapid players, winning the 2010 Amber Tournament (Blindfold). In 2014, he added to his resume by winning both the blitz and rapid sections of the Mind Games in Beijing.
A long time member of the Russian national team, Grischuk has represented his federation in seven Olympiads including the gold medal winning teams in 2000 and 2002. He has also competed in five World Team Championships earning three individual gold medals and one silver medal.
Grandmaster Levon Aronian is a walking celebrity and the pride of chess-strong Armenia. He's been declared Sportsman of the Year twice, Honored Master of Sport in 2009, and named the 2012 Person of the Year by a leading national magazine. The 32-year-old was the sixth player in history to cross the elite 2800 threshold and reached a career-best 2835 in 2014. Aronian is currently ranked No. 11 in the world and rated 2765.
Taught to move the pieces at nine years old, Aronian was quick to appear on the world stage, winning the 1994 World Youth Chess Championship U12. In 2002, at 20, he won the Armenian Championship and later the World Junior Championship in India. However, Aronian's mainstay in the world's elite was marked in 2005 when he won the World Cup in Russia and cracked the world's top-10 for the first time. Since then, Aronian has collected a staggering amount of elite titles.
He played the first board on three gold-medalist Armenian Chess Olympiad teams (2006, 2008 and 2012), and he also grabbed the individual gold in 2012. He has won the FIDE Grand Prix twice, the prestigious Tal Memorial three times, and the Corus/Tata Steel Chess Tournament four times, one of which includes the 75th anniversary earlier this year where he beat the field by 1.5 points.
Not just confined to classical chess, Aronian was the 2009 World Rapid Champion as well as the 2010 World Blitz Champion, though both titles have since been claimed by the now triple-crown World Champion Magnus Carlsen. Aronian is also a talented chess variant player, becoming the Chess960 World Champion in 2006. He successfully defended the title to Viswanathan Anand in 2007, though lost it in 2009 to Hikaru Nakamura.
Maxime Vachier-Lagrave is France's No. 1 grandmaster. Widely regarded as a resourceful risk-taker, Vachier-Lagrave is quite often a fan-favorite amongst his tournaments where he regularly delivers some of the most exciting games of chess.
As the 13th youngest GM in history, earning the title in 2005 at just 14 years and 4 months, Vachier-Lagrave was a child prodigy discovered quite early in his life. He was on France's national scene at just six years old, winning the U8 section of the Montlucon tournament in 1997. Conquering sections well above his age would become a theme in his young life; Vachier-Lagrave participated in France's U16 Team Championships since 1997, winning seven points in seven games on the first board in both the 2004 and 2005 events.
Vachier-Lagrave was competing in his first World Youth Championship in 2000 at just nine years old, finishing with a bronze medal that year, as well as 2001 and 2005. He then won Paris' Championship in 2007, and continued that year by winning his first of three French National Championships at just 16 years old. Soon, Vachier-Lagrave became the World Junior Chess Champion, winning the title in Argentina 2009 with a score of 10.5/13.
Now at age 24, Vachier-Lagrave's appearance amongst the world's elite has confirmed what France knew about him as a youth. He was dubbed the winner of the 2012 SPICE Cup here in Saint Louis at Webster University in 2012 and was a semifinalist at the 2013 Chess World Cup, despite entering as the 23rd seed. There, he lost to, eventual winner, Vladimir Kramnik.
This year Vachier-Lagrave is making his second appearance in the Sinquefield Cup.


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# Sat 23 Jan, 10:00
FC Halifax Town Bromley
FC Halifax Town vs Bromley Summary
FC Halifax Town 6 23 17 28 21 466% 233% 529% 233% 466%
Bromley 9 22 14 23 17 233% 466% 428% 4100% 00%
FC Halifax Town vs Bromley head 2 head
01 Feb 10:00 10:00, 01 Feb fin
13 Apr 10:00 10:00, 13 Apr fin
National League league table
1 Torquay 8 6 1 1 17 6 19 9 6 1 2 21 11 19 17 12 2 3 38 17 38 21 2.20
2 Hartlepool 10 5 2 3 16 12 17 7 4 1 2 10 7 13 17 9 3 5 26 19 30 7 1.50
3 Sutton UTD 8 4 2 2 16 7 14 6 4 1 1 9 9 13 14 8 3 3 25 16 27 9 1.80
4 Stockport 6 3 2 1 10 5 11 8 4 1 3 12 11 13 14 7 3 4 22 16 24 6 1.60
5 Altrincham 7 2 2 3 7 8 8 11 4 4 3 13 13 16 18 6 6 6 20 21 24 -1 1.10
6 FC Halifax Town 8 4 2 2 16 10 14 9 2 3 4 12 11 9 17 6 5 6 28 21 23 7 1.60
7 Notts County 8 5 0 3 14 8 15 6 2 2 2 5 5 8 14 7 2 5 19 13 23 6 1.40
8 Maidenhead 6 3 1 2 13 11 10 8 4 1 3 8 10 13 14 7 2 5 21 21 23 0 1.50
9 Bromley 8 2 2 4 12 13 8 6 4 2 0 11 4 14 14 6 4 4 23 17 22 6 1.60
10 Boreham Wood 5 2 1 2 4 4 7 9 4 3 2 13 7 15 14 6 4 4 17 11 22 6 1.20
11 Solihull Moors 7 6 0 1 13 3 18 6 1 1 4 5 10 4 13 7 1 5 18 13 22 5 1.40
12 Woking 9 4 3 2 12 5 15 7 2 0 5 8 13 6 16 6 3 7 20 18 21 2 1.30
13 Aldershot Town 7 3 1 3 9 10 10 9 3 2 4 13 12 11 16 6 3 7 22 22 21 0 1.40
14 Wealdstone 7 4 1 2 16 16 13 9 2 2 5 7 17 8 16 6 3 7 23 33 21 -10 1.40
15 Eastleigh 6 2 3 1 7 5 9 7 3 2 2 14 10 11 13 5 5 3 21 15 20 6 1.60
16 Wrexham 6 3 1 2 7 3 10 8 3 1 4 10 13 10 14 6 2 6 17 16 20 1 1.20
17 Chesterfield 8 3 1 4 16 9 10 7 3 0 4 10 11 9 15 6 1 8 26 20 19 6 1.70
18 Dagenham & Redbridge 5 1 2 2 2 3 5 9 4 1 4 9 11 13 14 5 3 6 11 14 18 -3 0.80
19 Yeovil 8 2 1 5 10 13 7 7 2 4 1 10 11 10 15 4 5 6 20 24 17 -4 1.30
20 Kings LYNN 8 2 3 3 11 15 9 6 2 0 4 7 16 6 14 4 3 7 18 31 15 -13 1.30
21 Weymouth 10 1 1 8 12 24 4 6 1 2 3 5 7 5 16 2 3 11 17 31 9 -14 1.10
22 Barnet 8 1 2 5 4 15 5 6 1 1 4 7 20 4 14 2 3 9 11 35 9 -24 0.80
23 Dover 7 2 1 4 6 15 7 4 0 0 4 1 11 0 11 2 1 8 7 26 7 -19 0.60
FC Halifax Town Last Games
0 + + + + + - ? ? - ? + - - ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? - 0 + - 0 0 0 - ? ? - ? ? 0 - - + + + ? - + + - + ? 0 ? ?
HT: 2-1 FT: 3-3 PN: 4-2
Bromley Last Games
+ - - - + + - - - - 0 - - - 0 ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? + - 0 ? + + - - + 0 0 + 0 + - - + + ? ? ? ? ? ?
Sutton UTD
FC Halifax Town Results
Bromley Results
FC Halifax Town Goals
Bromley Goals
FC Halifax Town Strength
Bromley Strength
FC Halifax Town Goals (Last 30 games)
Bromley Goals (Last 30 games)
FC Halifax Town Scorers (Last 15 games)
Jake Hyde 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 4
Jamie Allen 0 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 3
Nyal Bell 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 3
Martin Woods 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 3
Billy Chadwick 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 3
Gevaro Nepomuceno 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 2
Tom Bradbury 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 2
Luke Summerfield 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 2
Jeff King 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Jack Earing 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Danny Williams 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Niall Maher 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Kieran Green 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1
Bromley Scorers (Last 15 games)
Michael Cheek 0 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 6
James Alabi 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 4
Recco Hackett-Fairchild 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 2
Harry Forster 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 2 2
Nassim L'ghoul 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Ben Williamson 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Joseph Kizzi 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Chris BUSH 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1
Liam Trotter 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1
FC Halifax Town Bad Boy (Last 30 games)
Nyal Bell 26.12.2020
Jeff King 10.11.2020
Danny Williams 10.11.2020
Bromley Bad Boy (Last 30 games)
Ben Williamson 24.11.2020
Jack Holland 01.02.2020
Chris BUSH 04.01.2020
FC Halifax Town 2.17 1.50 2.37 1.61 1.50
Bromley 1.67 2.00 1.52 1.88 1.75
FC Halifax Town vs Bromley
The last meeting of these teams took place more than a month ago (1 February 2020) and ended with the victory of FC Halifax Town with a score 2-1.
The teams are close in the league table, the difference between their points is only 1 point.
FC Halifax Town takes the 6th position in the league table with 23 points. This is the 17th of 44 team game in the tournament.
The difference with the nearest team on top is 1 point (FC Halifax Town can score 81 points). In addition, the distance from the TOP-4 is 1 point (81 points are possible). The nearest pursuer has the same number of points with FC Halifax Town and can score 90 points. The goal difference is 28:21. In addition, the FC Halifax Town offensive line is one of the TOP-4 in the tournament.
Bromley takes the 9th position in the league table with 22 points. This is the 14th of 44 team game in the tournament.
The difference with the nearest team on top is 1 point (Bromley can score 90 points). In addition, the distance from the TOP-4 is 2 points (90 points are possible). The nearest pursuer has the same number of points with Bromley and can score 90 points. The goal difference is 23:17.
FC Halifax Town Stats
Leading players in the last 15 matches in all tournaments: Jake Hyde (4), Jamie Allen (3), Nyal Bell (3), Martin Woods (3), Billy Chadwick (3), Gevaro Nepomuceno (2), Tom Bradbury (2).
Bromley Stats
The team scored 18 points when playing away in 10 last matches, with the following results 5 wins, 3 draws и 2 losses. The difference between scored and conceded goals is 14-8. The average number of goals is 1.4. The average number of cards in 10 last matches is 2.5.
Leading players in the last 15 matches in all tournaments: Michael Cheek (6), James Alabi (4), Recco Hackett-Fairchild (2), Harry Forster (2), Nassim L'ghoul (1), Ben Williamson (1), Joseph Kizzi (1).
14 November 2020, 12:28 sportsmole.co.uk
A dominant Bromley maintained their unbeaten away record after a 3-1 National League defeat of Barnet. Joseph Kizzi gave the visitors the advantage in the 12th minute, converting a Frankie Raymond corner from the edge of the six-yard box.
16 July 2020, 16:00 freesupertips.com
Boreham Wood vs Halifax predictions for Friday's National League Play-Off Eliminator. Boreham Wood have the home advantage in their play-off eliminator against Halifax on Friday night.
14 March 2020, 08:05 talksport.com
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3 February 2020, 12:29 talksport.com
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20 November 2019, 05:29 freesupertips.com
Maidenhead United vs Woking predictions for Saturday's match in the National League. Maidenhead United have the home advantage against Woking this weekend but the visitors sit nine places and seven points ahead of them in the table and will be confident they can pull off a result of their own.


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Il  è uno dei distretti della sottoprefettura di Oshima, Hokkaidō, in Giappone.

Attualmente comprende i comuni di Fukushima e Matsumae.

Matsumae

redpajama_set_name: RedPajamaWikipedia


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