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The Overeducated Housewife
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Tag Archives: controlling people
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Repost: Speaking of shameless shaming– Breastfeeding is not an act of public indecency!
January 10, 2022 knottybreastfeeding in public, breasts, Christians, controlling people, defrauding, fundies, high control religions, LDS, men who need an anatomy lesson, men who need to grow up, misogyny, modesty, Mormons, mothers, naked breasts, protecting men from their sexual thoughts, public indecency, purity, religion, repost, self control, temple recommends, Utah Leave a comment
Here's a repost from July 27. 2018, inspired by the swath of people who seem to think that breastfeeding a baby is an act of public indecency and my recent post about the Duggars and "defrauding". As you can see, the fundies aren't the only ones who have screwy beliefs about modesty. I am posting it mostly as/is, as I consider what today's fresh post will be. The featured image is in the public domain.
I would be remiss if I didn't post about this news story I read last night about a Mormon woman who was shamed by her bishop and stake president for breastfeeding (link was removed because it no longer works). According to KUTV, an unidentified LDS mom of four from northern Utah lost her temple recommend because she decided to breastfeed uncovered while she was in the foyer of her church. Temple recommends are basically cards that identify worthy members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. One must have a valid temple recommend in order to visit the church's temples, where "sacred" and secret religious ordinances, including many weddings, take place. Temple recommends are very important to faithful Mormons.
A few weeks ago, the mother had gone to see her bishop about getting her temple recommend updated and signed. The bishop told her that church members had complained about her openly breastfeeding her 18 month old baby. LDS churches have "mothers' rooms" where breastfeeding moms can go to privately feed their babies. The bishop said she should either use the mothers' room or cover up, since her decision to openly breastfeed might cause the men in the church to have "sexual thoughts". The bishop refused to sign the temple recommend and she had to get it signed by the first counselor instead.
Later, the mom visited her stake president so he could also sign her temple recommend. The stake president also brought up the breastfeeding issue and quoted from a church pamphlet about the importance of modesty. The pamphlet, "For the Strength of Youth", is well-known to LDS church members and provides guidelines about how church members are to present themselves.
The mother said that she got very upset during the meeting and had to leave the room several times to calm down. The woman's husband, who was also in attendance during the meeting, was told that he needed to "control his wife". The husband was also told that if he supported his wife's decision to publicly breastfeed without a cover, he would also lose his temple recommend.
Some people may wonder why the woman didn't simply use the mothers' room. Apparently, the room is off of the bathroom and this mother claims it's too isolating for her. Also, she says she can't hear the service in the mothers' room. The mom warns that even after her child is weaned, she doesn't plan to back down on this issue. She correctly states that breastfeeding is not a sexual act and publicly feeding her child is not wrong. She wants the church to be more accepting and sensitive toward mothers who choose to breastfeed in public.
As I read this story, I was, at first, very irritated on the mom's behalf. Fellas, if you're turned on by a woman's breasts, that is your problem. It's not up to women to protect you from your sexual thoughts. You need to exercise more self control and realize that breasts are, first and foremost, intended to feed babies. I realize that public breastfeeding is a somewhat new phenomenon in that, until recently, many women would feel uncomfortable exposing their breasts in public to feed their babies. But dammit, breasts are not primarily for titillation. They have a purpose. A man's sexual reactions to seeing a woman's breasts are secondary to that very important purpose. When it comes to embarrassment about breastfeeding, it's the men who need to get over themselves, not the women.
Then, after reading about how this mom was treated by church leaders, I was irritated by her reaction. I understand that the LDS church is the type of organization where membership is very important, particularly within family circles. It's not like it is in my family, where people attend different churches. Most of my family members are protestants, but they aren't all Presbyterians. I have an aunt who is Episcopalian and a sister who is an atheist. My mom played organ in Baptist and Methodist churches for most of my life. Yes, many of my family members go to church, but there is no pressure to attend a specific church or practice a particular religion. This is not necessarily true for Mormons. To them, family participation is essential and in devout families, there is intense pressure to be Mormon and participate fully in the church. Leaving the church can lead to a host of unpleasant consequences.
And yet… here is this nice couple doing absolutely nothing wrong, sitting there listening to church officials berate them for doing something totally natural and necessary for their baby's health, and threatening them with eternal damnation for not conforming to their stupid rules about modesty. I realize I'm not Mormon and never have been, but it's inconceivable to me that these people tolerated those shameful remarks from church leaders. They should have told both the bishop and the stake president to go fuck themselves (sorry, I'm in a mood this morning), gotten up, and walked out, vowing that their children would not grow up to be tithe payers. I may be very cynical or even naive, but I think that's ultimately a response that would get church leaders to listen. Seriously, fuck those guys. They are just regular men put into positions of leadership in a manmade religious organization. They only have as much power as their members are willing to give them. As long as church members allow them to talk to them in that way, the abuse will continue.
I do think it's abusive to subject breastfeeding mothers to shame, scorn, or ridicule for daring to feed their babies in public. If you think the church is right about this, the next time you have a meal, put a blanket over your head or go sit in the bathroom to eat. Tell me, is that a pleasant way to dine? Why should mothers and babies have to tolerate that?
It seems to me that this mom is very faithful to her beliefs. She is exactly the kind of member the LDS church would not want to lose. She cares enough about the church to want to hear what is said during meetings, even when she's nursing her child. While I personally think Mormonism is bullshit, she clearly doesn't. I don't think she's the kind of church member they'd want to alienate, since she has clearly had several children who will one day pay tithes… that is, if the church doesn't one day drive them out with their outdated and anti-woman policies.
Churches are definitely losing members lately. Nowadays, many people are abandoning religion or attending churches that offer more in the way of personal enrichment or entertainment. I have never attended a Mormon church service, but Bill has. He tells me they are extremely boring, except perhaps on fast and testimony days, when members get up to testify that the church is true. I have heard that a number of colorful testimonies have been offered on those Sundays, although in order to enjoy them, you have to be fasting… I'm not sure that's a good tradeoff.
I'm sure the church is very important to this mother and her husband. It's a pity she didn't just tell her leaders that she'd find a church where breastfeeding mothers are more respected and men are taught that they need to control their lust. The onus should not be on women to protect men from "falling". The men should be taught to self-regulate.
And… for the last time, breastfeeding babies isn't sexual. If you think it is, you're the one with a problem.
Duggars, Ex, narcissists, psychology
"You're not disloyal when you change…"
December 14, 2021 knottybreaking free of control freaks, breaking free of narcissistic abuse, control freaks, controlling people, Duggars, ex, Jessa Seewald, Jim Bob Duggar, Josh Duggar, Joy Anna Forsyth, Laura Charanza, Les Carter, narcissists, Surviving Narcissism, The Wizard of Oz 2 Comments
If you're a regular reader of this blog, you might know that I'm a big fan of Dr. Les Carter's excellent YouTube channel, Surviving Narcissism. This channel, which he runs with narcissistic abuse survivor, Laura Charanza, is all about healing from narcissistic abuse. I've read and reviewed several of Les Carter's books, and Bill and I have both gained insight from watching his videos. Dr. Carter has a calm, friendly, reassuring demeanor, and while I don't know if he's still engaged in private practice in Texas, I do know that he's helped so many people by being available on YouTube.
All of the recent drama involving the Duggar family has really caused me to reflect on the real damage that narcissistic parents do to their children. While it's impossible to know when Josh Duggar really started going off the rails, or whether or not his deviant attraction to harming children is something natural or nurtured, what is very clear to me is that Josh and his siblings no doubt suffered abuse from their parents. It's easy to see that Jim Bob Duggar has narcissistic proclivities. He clearly runs that family like his own mini cult, and there are a lot of conditions set upon the children. The ones who don't toe Jim Bob's line are pretty much cast out of the family.
Jim Bob has a public persona that is carefully crafted to fool people. He comes off as "nice", albeit very much in charge. But behind closed doors, there is no doubt in my mind that he's got a very different personality. And children who grow up under the control of someone as controlling as Jim Bob clearly is, will definitely struggle as they become adults. The public can see this phenomenon in action as the oldest Duggar children are breaking free of Jim Bob's mini cult. I noticed that Joy Anna Forsyth appeared to be extremely distraught last week during Josh's trial. It was as if she was finally learning some truths that she found overwhelming and upsetting. But I think it's important to understand that she grew up in a family system in which information was tightly controlled and filtered. And now, she's realizing that she's been kept in the dark and fed a lot of shit for years.
Dr. Carter explains how narcissists who are parents can hurt their children by sharing their pain in abusive ways.
Yesterday, Dr. Carter visited an interesting topic on his channel. The video, titled "How Narcissists Transfer Their Pain Onto Their Children" really hit home for me as I watched it this morning. All of the familiar tactics narcissistic parents use to desperately maintain control of their children were spelled out in Dr. Carter's video. Then, he explains, in a comforting and kind way, that adult children have the power to make changes. They can make their own choices, even if it feels like they can't. They just need to find the courage to do it. It's not unlike the discovery Dorothy makes in The Wizard of Oz, when she's told that all she has to do to go home again is click her heels three times. She always had the power. She just had to find the courage to use it.
Of course, making adult choices means living like an adult. And that can be extremely hard to do when you're an adult child of a narcissist. First off, children who are raised by narcissists are never taught healthy ways to enforce boundaries. They are subjected to abuse, which can encompass everything from verbal rages to physical blows, as well as mind games, threats, and using other people to promote agendas. I would imagine that in a family like the Duggars, there were plenty of mind games played– tactics meant to keep everyone off balance and unsure of their place. Children who grow up with that kind of a family system never learn to trust themselves, and after awhile, they become numb to the abuse, which only sets them up for more of the same treatment.
Secondly, children who are raised by narcissists are taught that if they try to go their own way, they're "disloyal". Narcissistic parents are in a lot of pain, and misery loves company. So the narcissistic parent will do all they can to make the children feel like they can't leave that system. They will try to make their children feel incompetent. If that doesn't work, they will call into question their children's love and loyalty. Children raised by narcissists who don't become narcissistic themselves will feel guilty if they move away from that system. Their parent(s) may accuse them of abandoning them or being disloyal. But one of the first things every child should learn is that they should always be loyal to themselves, first. And if changing is a healthy thing to do, they should be able to do it without being made to feel guilty.
Jim Bob Duggar controls his children– especially the adults– by holding things like money and housing over their heads. In the wake of Josh Duggar's conviction, we've seen several of the children make statements. It's very telling which of Jim Bob's adult children are free of his financial constraints. They are the ones who are making it clear that they condemn Josh's actions. The children who are still depending on Jim Bob have to be publicly loyal to him. They aren't allowed to criticize their brother or their father. I am sure the most important Commandment to Jim Bob is "Honor thy Father and they Mother"– especially thy father. Katie Joy, of Without a Crystal Ball, covers this topic regarding the Duggars.
Joy Anna is not dependent on Jim Bob anymore.
But Jessa still is…
As many readers also know, my husband was married to a woman whom I very strongly suspect is a narcissist, and she has five children who have been subjected to her abuse. For years, my husband was prevented from speaking to his daughters. One of the daughters broke free from her mother's grip and moved clear across the country from her. They are still on speaking terms, but it's pretty obvious that she's learning the truth about what happened. Likewise, Bill is also learning about what happened during the time he wasn't in contact.
My husband's older daughter still chooses to live with her mother. My guess is that she does it because she feels like she must. I think she's been led to believe that she can't survive on her own. But she also takes care of her profoundly autistic younger brother, because Ex doesn't do it. I suspect that she might speak to Bill if circumstances were different. I met her, and she struck me as a very loving person. I think she mainly doesn't connect with Bill because she knows that Bill is strong enough to survive. He isn't alone. He's got me, his mother, and his younger daughter. I think she might also fear facing up to the fact that she and her siblings have been controlled, lied to, and abused by their mother. I know from personal experience that recognizing that someone has abused you can lead to anger and depression. It's not a nice feeling to realize that you've been victimized. I suspect that older daughter might wish to spare herself that pain.
Also, if older daughter was to leave her situation, her brother could suffer the consequences. It would legitimately cause serious problems for him, and for Ex, because older daughter reportedly does all of the work. It's possible that she can't live with the potential guilt of forcing her mother to take care of her own son. I think she also legitimately feels for her mother, too, even though she really should be focused on living her own life on her own terms. She's an adult, though, and that is her choice to make. I just wish she understood that all she has to do is click her heels– pick up the phone– and there are people who would gladly help her get out of her predicament. Bill would be at the front of the line. Again– she should be loyal to herself before all others, because she is the only one who has to live with herself and her decisions.
I highly recommend Dr. Carter's video to anyone who has known the pain of growing up with a narcissistic parent. Adult children of narcissists have been raised to believe that they aren't their own people. They have been raised to act as objects– tools to be manipulated and used by their narcissistic parents. Children lack the ability to control what happens to them, but adults can deviate from the paths they are set upon. It just takes courage and some planning, and the knowledge that choosing one's own path can be painful. I'm sure that Jim Bob's adult children who aren't kowtowing to him anymore are denied access to their younger siblings, who are still trapped in the Tinkertoy Mansion. With every passing day, total freedom is closer– because eventually narcissists lose their psychic fiefdoms. Either it crumbles very publicly, as it is for Jim Bob right now, or it ends because the narcissist eventually becomes incapacitated or dies.
No one should have to wait until the death of a narcissist to reclaim control of their lives. I would love to see some of the independent Duggar siblings completely break free and start their own family traditions, perhaps even with each other. There's nothing to say that they have to tolerate control from their parents– or really, their dad. They're adults, and those of them who don't rely on Jim Bob's money can do whatever they want, within legal boundaries, anyway. It doesn't make them bad people to live their lives on their own terms, either. It makes them healthy adults.
Ex, family, mental health, psychology
When Grandma gets canceled…
April 16, 2021 knottyadvice columns, being canceled, choices, control freaks, controlling people, Danny M. Lavery, Dear Prudence, disrespect, Emily Yoffe, estrangement, Issendal.com, missing missing, people who lack insight, respect, Slate 2 Comments
I used to read Slate Magazine's advice column "Dear Prudence" fairly regularly, especially when we were still living in the States. I remember reading Dear Prudence in the Washington Post, too, especially when it was written by Emily Yoffe, who wrote an awesome book about adopting a beagle from BREW (Beagle Resource Education and Welfare). Bill and I have adopted three beagles from BREW ourselves, so naturally I wanted to read What the Dog Did: Tales from a Formerly Reluctant Dog Owner (2005). I remember Yoffe also famously wrote about competing in the Mrs. America pageant just for the sake of the experience. That was part of her "Human Guinea Pig" series for Slate. I probably ought to read Slate more often. It might annoy me less than The Atlantic does, with its daily doses of depressing articles about the rapidly degrading state of the world and how it's never going to get better.
Anyway, this morning, a Facebook friend commented on a column by Dear Prudence. Dear Prudence is currently written by Daniel M. Lavery, who was born Mallory Ortberg and raised by evangelical Christians. I may have to read more about his story. I had not heard of him until today, but apparently he is well known and regarded as a writer, especially in transgender circles.
The topic that so intrigued me this morning is entitled "My Daughter Cut Me Out of Her Life! She didn't even tell me she's pregnant." The letter that prompted the headline was from a mother, distraught that her formerly pleasant and cooperative adult daughter got married to a "controlling" man. Ever since the wedding, daughter has been much firmer with her mom– in fact, Mom thinks her daughter has "turned into a different person." Recently, the daughter stopped taking her mother's phone calls and texts. Below is the letter in question.
Dear Prudence,
Since my daughter married "Chris," she has turned into a different person. It started on her wedding day, when she got drunk and screamed at me for "always putting her down" after I made a (not insulting!) comment about her non-traditional dress. That was four years ago, and things have gotten worse since then. She and Chris have spent every Christmas with his parents rather than me and my husband, she ignores calls and texts, and she has gone from attending every pre-pandemic family function with thoughtful gifts on birthdays to missing all but funerals and sending gift cards as Christmas presents. She has spoken to us twice since February, and on one of those occasions ended up screaming abuse at us until my husband hung up.
I found out the worst news recently and cannot process it. My daughter is pregnant, and not only had she not told us, but she didn't plan to. I only found out, mortifyingly, because a friend saw something on social media and asked me about it (I'm not on social media). My husband and I tried getting through to our daughter, but she has changed her personal number and only Chris answers the house phone. When confronted, he told us that she no longer wanted any contact with us, and that "they" did not want us in their child's life. My husband accused Chris of controlling our daughter, at which point Chris hung up. I have since called and pleaded with him to let me talk to my daughter, but to no avail. He has always been a cold person, but I never thought he would do something like this. I know that my daughter has some responsibility for her choices here, but I agree with my husband that Chris seems to be a powerful influence in isolating her from us in this extreme way. We are at a loss as to what to do from here. I cannot bear the thought of never meeting my own grandchild, and part of me can't believe that our daughter would be so cruel as to follow through with this plan to keep us from them permanently. Is there anything I can say that might get through to Chris, or that I could put in a letter begging my daughter to reconcile? My husband and I miss the sweet, warm girl that we raised, and feel as though we've lost her to a cold, angry stranger.
Prudie gave the usual excellent advice. But what really stuck out to me was my friend's comment. She wrote that the letter "smacked of 'missing missing reasons.'" Prior to today, I had never heard of such a concept. I decided to follow the link my friend shared in her comment. I found myself on a blog page about parents and children who are estranged. It appears that the blog, Issendai.com, is mostly about psychology, and in particular, estrangement between parents and their children. I will have to explore it more thoroughly today.
The post my friend shared is entitled "The Missing Missing Reasons", and it's all about how parents of estranged children seem to "miss the boat" on why they are cut out of their adult children's lives. These parents will say their children "never gave them a reason" for the estrangement. But then, after they start talking or writing, they reveal that their children actually DID give them a reason. It appears that the estranged parent simply didn't acknowledge the reason.
In the above letter, the distraught mother claims that her daughter became someone she doesn't know anymore after the daughter got married. She blames Chris, the husband, for the daughter's change. She makes him out to be an abuser who is trying to prevent her from meeting her own grandchild. But if you read carefully, Mom also claims that her daughter "got drunk" at her wedding and yelled at her mother for "always putting her down" after the mom made a "not insulting" comment about her daughter's unconventional wedding dress.
Just that initial part of her letter makes me think that "Heartbroken" has a habit of discounting her daughter's feelings and expecting her adult child to defer to her. I suspect she might be the type of parent who think she's always right and always deserves respect, even when she, herself, isn't behaving in a respectable way. In her letter, I don't see any acknowledgment from "Heartbroken" that she may have caused her daughter hurt or offense, even if it was completely unintentional. Instead, she assumes her daughter's husband is entirely to blame for this estrangement.
Even though Heartbroken writes that her daughter "has some responsibility for her choices", she doesn't seem to understand that, as a competent adult, her daughter actually has complete responsibility for her choices. She isn't a child anymore, and her mother is no longer the boss of her. It could be that Chris is helping her by screening her mother's calls, but unless he's the worst type of abusive monster, my guess is that he's not doing it because he's a control freak. He's probably doing it because his mother-in-law is a possessive control freak who doesn't see her daughter as a fully functioning adult, capable of having and expressing her own feelings and making decisions about who will, and who will not be, in her life. And unfortunately, until that unborn baby she's carrying is also an adult, she is also capable of making choices for her child, which could mean that Grandma gets "canceled".
I have some empathy for both sides of this situation. First off, I am a youngest child with family members who have historically discounted my opinions and treated me with contempt and disrespect. Fortunately, of all my family members, my mom has always had the most regard for me as an adult. In fact, when I was a child, my mom often expected me to be more adult than I was. She was in a hurry to see me grow up, because she had made it plain to me that she hadn't expected or wanted a fourth child (me). I turned out to be a pretty good kid overall, but I had an attitude and wasn't exactly genteel, high achieving, or well-behaved around her friends. Consequently, I often heard hurtful stories about how obnoxious I was as a toddler and small child. Some would say I never outgrew those traits, even though overall, I really wasn't that difficult. I never got arrested or pregnant, and I finished high school, college, and graduate school on time, and with little help from anyone else, other than financially.
In my case, my mom became a lot easier to be around once I became an adult. She would probably say the same about me. I'm probably much less annoying as an adult. I certainly require less from her, so she can just be my friend. I notice my mom was also a lot less annoying once I got married. I think she was afraid I'd never be able to launch… or find a suitable mate. Bill turned out to be very acceptable and we're doing fine, so Mom has relaxed a lot. I think it also helped when she no longer had to deal with my dad or keep their business from tanking.
And secondly, I'm married to a man who was estranged from his daughters. One adult daughter is still estranged. The other has reconnected, which is something I never thought would happen. Younger daughter has explained a lot about why the estrangement happened. When she and Bill started talking again, he approached gently and listened to her. In her case, the estrangement wasn't so much because it was what she wanted. Her mother pretty much forced her to disconnect and filled her and her sister with fear and doubt.
In that process, I was painted as "the bad guy" because Bill stopped putting up with his ex wife's abusive bullshit. I also made for a convenient scapegoat as a so-called home wrecking whore. Meanwhile, Bill approached Ex with calm assertiveness rather than meek submission or outright aggression. I'm sure that was infuriating and frustrating for Ex. She once even commented on how his tone had "changed". She didn't like it, because she was used to deference. And she blamed me, when she should have realized that he had simply recovered from her toxic bullshit and had made up his mind not to tolerate it anymore.
It took years, but that calm and gentle approach is paying off as Bill strengthens his ties to his daughter and her family. Meanwhile, it sounds to us like Ex is being shut out of at least two of her five children's lives. And this time, the estrangement isn't because they were forced– it's because they're now adults and they have chosen to disconnect, to some degree.
Ex is the type of person who will send an email full of emotional blackmail, blame, rage, and begging in order to get her way. She's manipulative and disrespectful, and expects her children and other family members to kiss her ass. She has a one dimensional approach to relationships and sees them only in terms of how they relate to her, without any regard toward how her actions and behaviors affect other people. Meanwhile, she does everything she can to present a facade to the rest of the world about what an "amazing" person she is. It's all a lie, and it's obvious to most people who have any situational awareness.
I'm not saying I think "Heartbroken" is like Ex, though. She may have been a much better mother and may be a superior specimen when it comes to simple humanness. But in her letter, I read the words of a woman who blames other people for everything and doesn't have much self-awareness or personal insight. For instance, she legitimately may not have meant her comment about her daughter's wedding dress as an insult. However, that was clearly how it came across to her daughter. We can't always control how people interpret what we say or do, but if someone does take offense to something we say or do, it's his or her right. And then, we weigh whether or not we care about their being offended. If we care, maybe an apology or explanation is in order. If we don't care, then fuck 'em, and we reap the consequences.
In this case, it sounds like Mom cares that her daughter has cut her out of her life. She doesn't want to be canceled from her unborn grandchild's life. With that being the case, she may have to humble herself and be a bit more introspective. She may have to alter her behavior and show her daughter more respect, or at least acknowledge that some of the things she's said and done in the past have been hurtful and caused offense. If she isn't willing to make that concession, she may stay canceled.
Most normal people don't like being estranged from others, especially close relatives, like a parent. I'm sure "Heartbroken's" daughter thought about it before she cut off her mom. She may have determined that being separated from/no contact with her mother is less painful than enduring her mother's recurrent intrusiveness and disrespect. When a person is still a child, they have to tolerate a parent's disregard and disrespect. But the wonderful thing about being an adult is that we all have the ability to make choices for ourselves. And it sounds like that is what "Heartbroken's" daughter has done.
It may turn out that this relationship can be salvaged. The letter writer's daughter may be a reasonable person, and she may welcome her mother back into her life if Mom starts treating her with some basic respect and civility. But it sounds like she's not going to deal with her as she is today, and she's not going to subject her child to her mother's repeated disrespect, either.
The reason I think it's been a pattern is because "Heartbroken's" daughter mentioned it at her wedding, of all places. It was her day– a day I'm sure, drunk or not, she definitely wasn't wanting to spend arguing with her mom. Then, the mom made the comment that she didn't think she was insulting her daughter. But her daughter clearly took the comment about the wedding dress as insulting– on her day– and, more importantly, pointed out that it wasn't the first time. So this has been an issue for a long time… and now that daughter has her own family, why does she "need" her mom? She doesn't… at least not in the most basic ways. She's a grown and functional person, with a husband who supports her, and soon a child of her own whose needs she will have to consider. And her mom, God help her, is still thinking only about herself and her needs as a mom and grandma.
I have cut some people out of my life. It wasn't easy for me. I think about all of the years I spent with some of the people I don't talk to anymore. I have some great memories. But after awhile, the good memories are outweighed by bad ones, and feeling traumatized and angry after multiple toxic interactions. After awhile, healthy people tend to make the decision to stop drinking the poison and put the bottle aside… I've done that, and it's overall been a good thing… even if I do still have some great memories. However, that doesn't mean I wouldn't listen if someone indicated that they wanted to talk to me, and it was an actual conversation involving more than one perspective. I think "Heartbroken" is firmly focused on her own perspective and how much she hurts. Until she realizes that her daughter was also hurt, she probably won't get anywhere.
I think if "Heartbroken" is willing to open her heart and her mind, let her daughter know that she hears her and is willing to try to change the way she communicates, she may find her daughter is more willing to include her in her life. But if she just wants to blame her daughter and her son-in-law, I'm afraid Grandma is gonna stay canceled.
Anyway… I'm going to have to read more articles on Issendal.com. I'm glad I took a minute to read about "missing missing reasons". It's a concept that I think affects a lot of relationships involving high conflict, immature people who lack insight and introspection.
Ex, mental health, narcissists, psychology
September 18, 2020 knottyabuse, abuse of power, controlling people, entitled people, narcissists, neglect, psychology 2 Comments
Yesterday, I wrote about how Bill discovered that his daughter was medically neglected when she was growing up. The problems that younger daughter had weren't life threatening; they simply caused her great discomfort and pain. Ex figured her kid would live, so she didn't have to take her to a doctor or pay for devices that would make her feel or function better. She didn't have time for it, nor did she want to go to the trouble or spend the money. And if she did spend the time or the money, she would never let anyone forget it, as if seeing to her children's needs was a favor, rather than a responsibility.
It occurs to me that I've often heard that same excuse from other narcissistic types. Whenever someone makes a request of them, particularly when it has to do with respecting personal boundaries or spending money, their excuse for not honoring the request is often "I don't have time." But they have no issues with taking YOUR time or making requests or demands of your money or resources.
When I was in the Peace Corps, I had several different landladies. The first two were basically kind and respectful enough. I left the first place because it involved living with a host family, a young woman and her little brother, and I wanted my own space and more privacy. I didn't want to have to worry about someone going through my stuff when I wasn't home (which happened both times I lived with host families). I preferred quiet in the evenings and she would have friends over until all hours. I also wanted to feel comfortable in my own home rather than like a guest. So, after two months living there, I moved into my own apartment. It was a lot better for me.
The second landlady I had was a very nice lady whose brother had moved to Ukraine and left her to take care of his apartment. She was also the Peace Corps doctor. I was reasonably happy there, but had to move after a year because her brother had decided to sell the place. No one told me he was selling it, so I was very confused when someone rang the doorbell wanting to know if I was "selling" the apartment. I started getting other random people showing up wanting a tour. Later, my landlady explained what was going on and I decided to move, rather than deal with people constantly coming over to see the apartment.
Then, there was my third landlady, who had an apartment and moved to Hungary to study. When I agreed to rent her place, I didn't know her very well, although she too had worked for the Peace Corps. She left her father in charge of the apartment. Every month, he would show up at the apartment to collect the rent. I was paying twice as much rent for that apartment than I was for the previous one. By American standards, it was a very cheap place to live, but by Armenian standards, it was very expensive and quite overpriced. In fact, the place was smaller, and in a less desirable location, although it had nicer furniture (a real bed instead of a fold out couch). I worked at a non-governmental organization to help cover the rent. Technically, we weren't supposed to be paid for extra work, but it was a common practice, especially for those of us who lived in Yerevan. Volunteers are no longer posted there.
In my last three months in that apartment, which I lived in for about ten months, the landlady came back to Armenia from Hungary and started paying visits, even if I wasn't home. She would let herself into the apartment when I wasn't there and let her son eat my food. Not only would he eat things from my fridge, but he'd leave the dirty dishes for me to find. One night, I came home from having gone out to see a movie and this lady and her father were waiting in the apartment for me. They had let themselves in while I wasn't there. I was completely unprepared for the ambush, and not really in a state to be talking to them at that hour. It was about 10:00 on a Friday night and I'd had a couple of beers. Dad was smoking a cigarette when I opened the door to the place I had considered my home for about nine months.
Former Armenian landlady accused me of not paying rent one month. She said her father had accused me of stiffing him. I was outraged, of course, because he showed up every month on the first day, ready to collect the money. And of course he was paid. I could not even fathom how she thought I could live in a place where I wasn't paying rent. There was a record of me getting the money from the NGO where I worked. I asked the ex landlady to check the records. Her response? "I don't have time to do that. How do I know you didn't just spend the money?"
I could have asked the same thing about her father, who did very promptly collect the rent without fail and very faithfully got paid. I kept a daily journal when I was in the Peace Corps and I actually noted the days when he came, not because I didn't trust him, but because I habitually journal about mundane things like that. I still do that today, as you can see.
As for my Armenian landlady, I was beyond offended by her gall and, still being a young, inexperienced renter in a foreign country, I couldn't believe her sense of entitlement and unfairness toward me. She had worked for the Peace Corps and knew full well what the organization is about, yet she still felt fine about trying to rip me off.
She had plenty of time to let herself into my home and wait for me, but no time to do a simple check like finding out if she'd been paid. She had no problem accusing me of stiffing her for a month's rent, and she probably figured that because I was a "rich" American paying what we'd consider "cheap" rent, I would just pay her to get her off my case. I think she also mistook my tendency to get emotional as a sign of weakness. Well… she could not have been more wrong about that. I went on the fucking warpath, as I tend to do when people push me past a certain red line. She quickly found out that she had made a major miscalculation of my potential reaction to her dishonest ploy and had completely misjudged and underestimated me.
Armenian landlady and her father finally left the apartment when I had a panic attack in front of them. At the time, I had severe issues with anxiety and depression and I would sometimes hyperventilate and cry uncontrollably. I was so completely shocked and horrified by her aggressive and completely unwarranted accusations that I had a big meltdown. They didn't know what to do, so they left. Fortunately, panic attacks are no longer a problem for me– now, I just get super pissed off and resolved to set things right.
I eventually recovered my senses, called one of the Peace Corps administrators, and explained what happened. We arranged for someone Armenian from the office to be there when I handed over the keys to the apartment, to make sure that I didn't get harassed as I was trying to leave the country. And no, Armenian landlady did not manage to shake me down for another month's rent, but I left Armenia with an angry and depressed mindset. I was flabbergasted by her nerve and left with a bitter taste in my mouth that I had spent over two years of my life trying to do something good and was accused of theft for my troubles.
Many years hence, I had a landlady who "didn't have time" to send a four word email or text to let me know when she was coming over so I could be prepared for company. Bear in mind that in most developed countries, landlords aren't supposed to simply drop by without notice. They're usually required to give 24 hours notice before they show up. Bill and I were initially pretty laid back about her habit of dropping in– or really, I was, because I was mostly the one who dealt with her. But she'd caught me undressed, sick, busy, or asleep one too many times and I was fed up with the intrusions, among other things.
Bill politely and reasonably asked her to let us know before she came over (so I could be awake, properly dressed, and we could make sure there weren't any doggy landmines in the backyard). We weren't even asking for 24 hours notice, but she was offended that we had the nerve to ask her for ANY notice to come to HER house (which was also OUR HOME). She wrote back that she "didn't have time" to send us notice– as few as just four words "I'm coming over now"– so I could be ready to receive her. She actually refused to do it, because she "didn't have time". We still have the email with her refusal to comply with that simple request, along with all of the others she sent that indicate her huge sense of entitlement and propensity toward double standards when it comes to her renters.
This is what gets me about these types of people– folks who are entitled, high-conflict oriented, and narcissistic. If the shoe was on the other foot, they would be absolutely up in arms if someone told them they "didn't have time" for them or to honor a simple request. Narcissistic types will go off about that– how dare you NOT bend to my will?! How dare you NOT have time to do my bidding?! I am ENTITLED. You are not.
When Bill was first married to Ex (when she only had her son from her first marriage), he asked her to look for a job because they were struggling to pay their bills. Ex got very offended and said she was going to mark all of the stuff she'd brought to the home as hers. She was so upset and put upon that Bill would ask her to look for work, even though it would benefit everyone if they could more easily pay their bills. She "didn't have time" to work. Ex did later work when more children came along, although her work history has been a bit checkered.
If I had told any of my former landladies that I "didn't have time" to go pick up the rent money for them, they would have been extremely upset with me. If I had told my Armenian landlady that she couldn't just let herself into the apartment whenever she felt like it, she would have been furious with me. She might even cite that she "didn't have time" to tell me she was coming over and that she was entitled to the convenience of being able to drop in whenever it suited her, regardless of my plans. I wasn't worthy of the consideration. I will grant that it would have been hard for the Armenian landlady to let me know she was coming over in 1997. At the time, cell phones weren't widely available and landlines were notoriously unreliable. I could call the United States more easily than I could call across the street. But she still let her kid eat my pudding and leave the dirty dishes for me to clean up and she was still waiting for me to come home one night inside the apartment. She was entitled– it was HER apartment before it was MY home, and I was paying her a lot for the privilege.
Ditto to the fact that an awning that one of my ex landladies neglected to have fixed by a real repairperson could have seriously hurt or even killed me when it fell. She had no regard for the fact that my life could have been in danger because she "didn't have the time or money" to call a real repairperson instead of getting her husband to do a free patch job. Instead, she felt "entitled" to force us to buy her a brand new awning, even after taking an insurance settlement. She failed to realize her own neglect and disregard for our safety and was focused solely on money she felt she was owed.
However, when we objected to her coming over to oversee the chimney sweep and check the smoke alarms, she was quick to lecture us about our "safety". We weren't objecting to the chimney sweep's visit or the safety checks. We were objecting to her need to come over to our home and harass us. There was no reason for her to be in attendance for the chimney sweep's visit. She just wanted to exert control. She had no time to send a quick text or an email to tell us when she was going to do yard work or clean the gutters, but she had plenty of time to hang around the house when the chimney sweep visited. She also had no problem demanding that I make coffee for repairpeople, even though she was overseeing them and had set up the appointments. Incidentally, the coffee always went untouched, so that was like money down the drain. OUR money… not hers. Hmm…
Likewise, she had no issues detailing the smallest of complaints about our "shortcomings" as tenants– issues that no one else has ever had with us. But she didn't feel the need to hold herself to the same standards when it came to properly accounting for the condition of the house when we moved in and out, how she was billing us, or adhering to basic laws designed to protect tenants and their privacy. She clearly expected that we would simply let her get away with these oversights because it's much easier and less expensive to give in to the fuckery than hold her accountable. WE were expected to be perfect, but she "didn't have time for that", nor were we worthy of that standard.
I've gotten to the point at which when I hear someone telling me that they "don't have time" for something that is a simple and easily fulfilled request, or they "don't have time" to respect a basic boundary, or they "don't have time" to take care of something that involves someone else's comfort, health, or safety, particularly when that person is someone who is especially vulnerable in some way (a child, someone who is sick or disabled, or an elderly person), I realize that the person is going to be a major league asshole and abuse their power over others. I can pretty much count on it.
Generally speaking, it's best to just walk away from these types of people, although most of them dearly need to be taught a lesson by a visit from the karma bus. I seem to drive the karma bus fairly often… it seems to be my lot in life. It doesn't make me very popular with these types of people… That's too bad for them, isn't it?
Duggars, Ex, narcissists
"He's just a little boy… let's not condemn him to a life of fundie drudgery yet!"
September 2, 2020 knottycontrol freaks, controlling people, Duggars, FLDS, fundamentalist Christians, Jessa Seewald, Jill Dillard, Jim Bob Duggar, Jinger Vuolo, Joy Anna Duggar, Joy Anna Forsyth, mini cults, narcissists, Spurgeon Seewald 4 Comments
Yesterday, I was hanging out in the Duggar Family News Facebook group when someone shared a cute picture of two of the Duggar grandchildren. I believe it was a picture of Josh's second daughter, Meredith, and Jessa's eldest child, Spurgeon. I think both kids are very cute, but Spurgeon appears to be especially adorable, despite his unfortunate name, which alternately reminds me of sturgeon or spooge. A lot of the people in the Duggar group called him "Spud" for short.
Anyway, I posted that I think Spurgeon is super cute and will be a "heartbreaker" when he gets older. Innocent enough comment, right? It's the kind of thing people often say about attractive children. I didn't realize what I wrote was controversial, but apparently, it was.
Here's the conversation that ensued:
I was a bit non-plussed that my original comment, that I think Spurgeon is a "cutie" and will be a heartbreaker, turned into a prediction of the boy's future. Spurgeon is only four years old; he turns five in November. And yet people in the Duggar group are already condemning him to a lifetime of being his grandfather's "slave".
"Here's you some candy…" (actually, I have seen the candy challenge done by a lot of Mormons, too.)
Frankly, I find that thought very depressing. People in the Duggar group follow the pregnancies of the Duggar children with intense devotion and seem to cheer whenever a new pregnancy is announced. However, it seems that a fair number of them believe that the offspring of the Duggar "kidults" are doomed somehow. What a sad and limiting thought that is. Basically, a large group of people strongly believe that these kids have no minds of their own and no ability to make their own choices.
And yet, here's Jill Dillard, wife of Derick Dillard and once considered the biggest Kool-Aid drinker of the bunch. She's sending her son, Israel, to public school. She has a nose piercing, wears pants, and has even been photographed wearing shorts, sleeveless tops, and swimwear. Yes, it's true that she and Derick are no longer welcome to come to the Duggar compound uninvited, but they are clearly making their own choices.
Jeremy and Jinger Vuolo, likewise, were able to escape Arkansas and live on their own out in California. They've been married a few years now, yet Jinger is only on her second pregnancy. She wears pants, has cut her hair, and colors it. It's obvious that Boob no longer completely runs her life.
And finally, there's Joy Anna Forsyth, who married her husband Austin a few years ago. Austin makes his own money flipping houses. It looks like they've largely removed themselves from the hopelessly dull Counting On series and are putting up their own videos on YouTube, for which they probably get paid directly.
I think these two might be living their own lives now.
But even if I'm wrong about Jill, Jinger, and Joy Anna, and their lifestyles are still completely under Boob's control, I still think it's within the realm of possibility that Spurgeon or any of the other Duggar grandchildren will bust out on their own and make their own choices. It's happened in many families that are mini-cults.
Look at the people who have managed to escape Warren Jeffs, and other FLDS sects. I know I read a lot of books by women who were once sister wives– Irene Spencer's excellent book, Shattered Dreams: My Life as a Polygamist's Wife, comes to mind. She was the second wife to Verlan LeBaron. Her sister wife, Susan Ray Schmidt, wife number six to Verlan, also wrote a book called His Favorite Wife: Trapped in Polygamy. I'm sure many people thought that Irene and Susan were trapped for life in the Colonia LeBaron FLDS polygamist nightmare, but they weren't. They escaped and made new lives for themselves. There is absolutely no reason to believe that any of the Duggar grandchildren or children can't also escape. In fact, if I were a betting woman, I would bet there will someday be a scandalous tell all about life as a Duggar. I bet there's already a book in the works as I type this.
If there's one thing I have learned from Bill's experience with his hyper-controlling, narcissistic ex wife, it's that people who are caught in these kinds of controlling groups DO sometimes wake up and take control over their own lives, even if the source of control is a close relative. My husband's daughter did not speak to him for many years, mostly because her mother told her not to and she'd been fed a lot of lies. A lot of people thought it was hopeless that Bill would ever speak to his daughter again, let alone know his grandchildren.
I always somehow knew younger daughter would eventually come around. I figured she would do it before her older sister would, simply because she had a stronger personality. But I knew it would happen someday that she and Bill would speak again. I'm grateful that my initial predictions weren't completely what came to pass. I figured she'd get in touch to spite her mother, because I was under the mistaken impression that she was just like her mom. I thought that she would try to use Bill, like her brother did. It turns out that, as far as we can tell, she's much more like Bill, which is a wonderful blessing.
I still have hope that older daughter will also come around someday… but if there's one thing Bill and I have BOTH learned, it's that being "disowned" is not the end of the world. Yes, it's extremely hurtful to be cast out, but the pain is definitely survivable. Some people truly would rather go through the pain of being disowned than surrender their free will to someone else. Many people are determined to make their own decisions in life, and choose to break out of extremely controlling family systems and do what they want. There is absolutely NO reason to believe that one of the Duggar grandchildren won't do that.
Boob can't control them all forever, and who's to say that someone even more narcissistic or toxic won't come along push him out of power? There are simply too many of them. Even Fred Phelps, creator of the damnable Westboro Baptist Church, was eventually ousted from his own family created church fiefdom. It takes a lot of energy and strength to control people, and the older and weaker a controlling person gets, they more likely it is that they'll eventually be pushed aside by someone younger and stronger. Everyone– even Jim Bob Duggar– has a match. Moreover, most of us have never met the Duggars and only know about them what we've seen on TV and read in the media.
I truly hope that any of the Duggar children or grandchildren who want to live life on their own terms will eventually be able to do so. I refuse to sell any of them short. I disapprove of making predictions about how a child will turn out, particularly when the child is as young as Spurgeon Seewald is. He's only FOUR. A whole lot can happen in fourteen years, when Spurgeon will be considered an adult. Let's give him a chance to grow up a bit before we make predictions about his future.
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I want to thank you for starting this thread, as it is providing us with interesting questions for sure regarding CPs, and certainly I'm learning from your questions which I think are well thought out and although I'm not scientific, I understand what your asking and when reading them I find myself thinking the same thing!
I just ordered the Super CP serum. Im not sure whether its first generation, second generation - as if you look at their website they don't label their products as either.
TheresaMary, that is the 2nd gen CP's. The only 2 products that Dr. Pickart sells that are 1st gen are the Super GHK Cream or Serum. All the others on his site are 2nd gen.
Thanks Rileygirl that makes sense re products, but I thought the ghk cream and serum came out after the others, so wouldn't that make them 3rd generation rather than 1st?
You are right, TheresaMary, they did come out After the other ones - on Skinbiology's site. I believe the patent that Procyte held expired, so then other manufacturers could start producing the 1st gen GHK.
Phew I'm not going mad then. Wow talk about make life complicated.
yikes. the inductive and syllogistic logic in Dr. P's post does not do anything to make me feel better about the issues raised by the thread. thanks for posting.
Actually this was just posted today on the SB Forums in direct response to this thread that Josee has started on CPs which much of the info. was left behind on the Physical SS Thread that was being hijacked.
We are aware of a sudden rash of attacks on Skin Biology and myself on various Internet Bulletin Boards. This has happened many times before and usually we are able to trace these back to a competitor.
1. "Dr. Pickart is not a real scientist."
This is news to me. I have a BA in Chemistry and Mathematics from the University of Minnesota and a PhD in Biochemistry from UC San Francisco.
2. "Dr. Pickart is an entrepreneur and not a scientist. He writes patents and not enough scientific papers."
The basic idea here is that scientists should avoid any commercial interests and never develop products for the general public. They should live like a priestly cult that is constantly begging for money, and practicing chastity, poverty, and obedience.
Galileo - The Father of Modern Science who sold telescopes and had a mistress, the very beautiful Marina Gamba of Venice.
Pasteur - Created and named biochemistry. Also obtained patents and worked closely with industry.
Nikola Tesla - Created the modern electric system and many other things.
magnetic induction, the Tesla, was named in his honor.
As for publishing papers, my first was in 1983 and my last in 2009.
by other humans. Two more will be published later this year.
There are criticisms that I did not publish a large number of papers.
and a world of "You are only good as your last funded grant". The key is not a number of papers but the importance of discoveries in the papers.
3. "Dr. Pickart skips research steps and ignores authorities in his research field."
Yes, I admit that I do this. Life is short and not taking risks is the biggest risk.
http://newnaturalbeauty.tumblr.com/ 37, light-toned olive skin, broken caps, normal skin. My staples: Osea cleansing milk, Algae Oil, Advanced Protection Cream, Eyes & Lips, Tata Harper, Julie Hewett makeup, Amazing Cosmetics Powder, & By Terry Light Expert, Burnout, and daily inversion therapy and green smoothies!
No, not at all the fact he was with Procyte then left but they had the patent until recently adds to the confusion! Only recently could he use the 1st generation again. What also adds to the clearheadedness is the terminology here and on other sites use CP broadly to refer to either generation. My head spins at times.
I've used both generation 1 and generation 2 copper peptides from Dr. Pickart. I have used them for over a year. My results are so amazing people ask me all the time what I do for my skin. In life there are NO guarantees. If you don't like it, don't use it.
Why make generalities about man who has devoted his life to this study? Especially when you don't know him. It's a silly waste of time and quite mean spirited - all made to look like you are doing the human race a great service.
His products are reasonably priced, no big rip off there. If you don't like them, don't use their products. Please don't insult the rest of us who do.
um, no one is insulting you. you joined this conversation of your own accord. this is a thread on the science behind copper peptides, not a personal attack on you.
an important issue with cps, which is not the case with most other actives, is the fact that it can be potentially damaging to healthy, normal skin.
if it were just a matter of "no guarantees," i.e. the active not living up to its claims, none of this heated debate would be occurring. the fact that we are using a product on our skin that has been noted to give wildly different effects--from the very good to the very bad--is why we are trying to understand the science behind the product a little better. there is nothing wrong with the quest for knowledge, to make your results--and my own--a little more intelligible in the grander scheme of things.
Science is important to the daily aspects of life. I am sure you can see by my diction that I am an educated person.
I am not offended, but I do not believe in not beating a dead horse. Just like you said if you have had dozens of university "scientific studies" it does not mean they are accurate.
Any scientific studies are based on a hypothesis which can be dis proven but that can not be proven true. Thus, after studies are conducted THEORIES upon observations are made to draw a conclusion to hypothesis. Hence, any scientific researches are endless and the countless studies.
OK... It's time to take a new direction!
I'm thinking we can, instead of analyzing in general the science behind CPs, analyze the evidence behind different claims (e.g. antioxidant properties, collagen production, etc, etc.) Because then we might be able to isolate some effects where there is good science and some other effects where more needs to be done.
Also, I see there's a lot of confusion between first and second generation of copper peptides, so I propose a nomenclature.
So if we all use these terms, then there will be less confusion.
Also...it's important that the references are reference to ACTUAL studies. Sometimes in journals, different doctors write their opinions, which is good, but it's not studies.
Josee: re nomenclature and checking out specific benefits, that sounds great. Don't know if I can contribute much re the researching periodicals but will try to pull my weight re figuring out CPs. Not sure I'll contribute much as I don't have the scientific background you/ some others on here seem to have, but I really appreciate your rigorous examination of CPs, has been illuminating and useful. Thank-you!!
It seems that when we make cosmetic purchases we do so based on one of a few reasons: testimony of friends or posters, marketing hype or reported scientific studies. In fact, I was going to resume cp's again because everyone is always touting the line that cps 'have solid science behind them.' Thanks so much Josee for clarifying the exact nature of these scientific studies. Like you, I don't agree that underwriting by Neutrogena qualifies as an independent study.
Your posts throughout the topic have been fair and even-minded. Unfortunately, people don't like their sacred cows messed with -- especially when they are done so in such a logical and objective manner.
what product do you think will work for acne scars? Do you think acne scars can be improved?
I just want to thank Josee for starting this post! CP's have been a mystery that have befuddled me for years! I too believe that knowledge is power and that we have the right to discuss all products and question anything that we put on our face! As for me, I have tried the SkinBio CP Serum (regular strength) and it was a disaster for me! Now I have pretty good skin to begin with. No wrinkles to speak of except for a few small fine lines in the crow's foot area. I wanted to try to use the CP Serum to get rid of those & just as a general antioxidant & anti-inflammatory & MMPi. My skin is super sensitive & has a tendency to flare up to the point that no matter what I use it either makes me dry out, or I get these tiny little bumps on my forehead & cheeks. Not pustules, but just skin-colored bumps. My doctor said it was not rosacea or any skin condition and to use Dove soap!
Anyway, I started using the SkinBio CP serum & within a month my skin just went crazy. It got these dry, rough patches, My undereye area got all crepey & wrinkly. Honestly, I never thought that a skin care product could do this to someone's skin. I contacted SkinBio & someone from their customer service wrote me back & told me it was my sun damage coming to the surface & to just keep using it & exfoliate by using more acids & to abrade the rough areas with a toothbrush before applying the CP Serum so it can penetrate better. I was appalled! First of all, I don't think that you should have to wirebrush your face in order for a product to work. Secondly I don't have a lot of sun damage. I live in an area where we get maybe 80 sunny days a year. I never go outside without using sunblock & I am not a "sun person" anyway. I can't deal with the heat, so I stay inside in the summer a lot, or stay in the shade.
Anyway, when I wrote back to them I told them all of this. I got another reply that was the complete opposite of the first suggestion. This time I was told that unless I have skin tags or scars or moles that I want to remove that I shouldn't even be using CP's! That they are not intended for healthy, intact skin. Umm...OK. So then why are they being sold as an anti-aging breakthrough? They told me to get the Super GHK-Cu Serum (which was twice the price for 1/2 the amount of product), as that is better for sensitive skin types. So I tried it (I was deperate to get rid of the rough patches). I let my skin alone for a while before I started the GHK-Cu though & I didn't have any problems with it. It took a while for my skin to get back to normal & then I must say that it didn't look any better than before I tried the CP's. Anyway, I stopped using the GHK-Cu on a regular basis because it got to be too expensive & I really didn't see any improvements.
I too find Dr. P to be full of contradictions. I've been to their forum a few times & his asnwers to questions are short & rude IMHO. I have also noticed a defitinite double-standard. He trashes every other skin care line out there & says not to use anything that is not supported by placebo-controlled, double blind, peer reviewed studies, but then his products don't meet those criteria either.
I see nothing wrong with us discussing our experiences with CP's (either positive or negative), and although I don't have any experience in science either, I'd be happy to contibute what I can to this subject, as it is a topic that interestes me. Thanks again Josee!
Interestingly, I found this discussion which took place some years ago on another forum.
People may wish to take a look. It seems we are not the only ones to ask questions about copper peptides. Granted that there are quite a few on the EDS forums who have had good results but there are also some who have not and we cannot ignore that there may be some adverse side effects. I have just read on makeupalley about a regular forum member who is describing what avalange had with the use of CPs.
I hope that the die-hard fans of CPs don't start jumping at me for "insulting" them. These are not my posts, I am merely searching for information and came across them and passing on the links to those in this forum who might be interested. There's no science there, just honest feedback from people who tried the products.
I came across the SkinBio website way before i came on EDS and read about negative experiences. I agree very much on the selective quoting on the site. That really quite did it for me, more so than any negative reviews.
Any research should look at and account for things in its entirety (doesn't matter if it ends up being inconclusive). Any researcher should know that, and not present information the way it is on the site.
Absolutely not meaning to insult anybody in any way. But i would very much prefer more information, if anyone has got access to it.
Star, I have said numerous times that I used SC2X on my jawline...I seriously doubt that migrated up to my eyeballs, but you never know!
And I LOVED what the CPs did for pigmentation...until the uglies kicked in and I aged 10 years seemingly overnight.
BTW, I am happy to provide copies of all my purchase receipts from SK if necessary should anyone need them!
FYI...I just read over some of my old posts on CPs, and I used the Super GHK around my eyes for at least 6 months before I saw any uglies (which was longer than I had thought). I have stated in recent posts that Nanci thought that the stronger CPs I was using elsewhere(CP Serum/diluted and SC2X on jawline/spots) might have migrated up to the eye area, and this timeline check seems to confirm this.
Thanks Nanci, for figuring that out. That was something I had not considered in the past, and it's nice to know that the weakest level of CPs didn't cause it.
Note to others: Please consider using CPs under the guidance of a professional like Nanci. They are kind of like the Obagi system...strong enough to need a professional opinion for best results!
StarModel, I never used anything stronger that Super GHK around my eyes, period. I have no hyperpigmentation on my eyes, and never have...thus no need for anything any stronger there. And the milia improvement is a result of the Lacsal, since we ALL know that CPs need exfoliators to work, right?
So that brings up an interesting question....are the CPs causing the improvement, or the acids? Because there are LOTS of studies showing improvement from acids.
There has been lots of confusion in this thread (and at least in my mind!) between "anti-aging" and "skin remodeling", "skin renewal" effects.
Some people have said that, e.g., copper peptides are for skin remodeling but not for anti-aging. I was not clear of the difference but reading a paper by Pickart I see that there is no difference.
So at least one thing we know now... that what we call "antiaging effects", or "photoaging effects", Dr. Pickart also calls it "skin remodeling". I hope this makes it clear because in the past people have said that copper peptides had skin remodeling properties but not antiaging properties, but as you can see from Dr. Pickart's words, they're the same.
Acid do NOT rebuids skin. They only breakdown damage.
StarModel, I already replied to that above...twice actually. Once after I corrected my timeline (after the first time that you posted the link), and at the top of this very page (before your post got deleted). I'm not sure what else you want from me here.
From what I have read, acids definitely DO rebuild skin. That is actually the whole premise behind the Vivite' line by Allergan, and thus far pharma companies are the only ones with mainstream, accepted anti-agers (Botox, Retin-A).
As for acids, overuse especially around the fragile eye area will damage skin.
So if you were using acids around your eyes, that would explain the cross-hatching & damage. It makes a little more sense now.
Acids thin the skin when overused. If you were only using mild CPs it is unlikely that this kind of damage would occur.
All factor need to be considered. That is why is important to monitor your skin when using HA, CPs or Retin-A. They need to be adjusted to what the skin can tolerate.
I rarely if ever use any acid around my eyes. And I have built-up resilient skin.
And Retin-A is wicked! More than any CP, even 2X.
I found evidence that Bethany was using much stronger products than she claimed - SC2X which is the strongest CP for scar removal. And after hearing her story I now believe her damage probably came from acids or using 2XSC or BOTH which was not made for the eyes.
StarModel, just in case you missed my reply, let me repost it for you. And I am going to respectfully ask that you STOP taking posts related to hyperpigmentation around my jawline out of context.
But you are absolutely correct that I was using Exfol or Lacsal around my eyes because it was my understanding that you were SUPPOSED to use acids with CPs.
In fact, the NEW website still has acids recommended under the More Options sections of the eyes page. But NOW it says to not overuse the exfoliation options, though it doesn't define "overuse."
Again, you are making claims Rileygirl about deleted posts on the SB forums but have no names, NO NOTHING!
Sorry, some of us just aren't buying it!
My answer to your post was that unless you have proof of SB deleting neg posts, then don't claim it. You have no proof.
StarModel, maybe this will help you understand why I thought there were posts deleted if someone had something negative to say about the products on the Skinbiology website.
At the top of every forum category we have posted Skin Biology Chat Forum Rules of Conduct and Etiquette. We remind all to bear in mind that this chat forum is owned and managed by Skin Biology. It is not a "public forum" in the sense that it is open to the public to post any kind of information that they may desire.
The Rules of Conduct has the following as its opening statement: "This chat group is only for clients and friends of Skin Biology to ask questions about how to better use the products and share their experiences, feedback, and opinions. Most clients come here to find relaxation and to get away from the pressures and stress of everyday life. So we insist that a pleasant, welcoming, and respectful environment be maintained."
1. This chat group/ messageboard is designed for the sharing of information about skin and hair care and general health issues. We welcome the exchange of opinions and desire to create an atmosphere in which everyone can be heard, ask questions, and compare experiences.
Person's whose only objective is posting negative comments will be removed...(i.e. one person had posted 65 posts ---ALL of which were negative comments--- but the person was not even a client of Skin Biology). So again, this website chat forum is primarily for Skin Biology Customers. In the past competing companies have been found targeting us and our clients and so this is what motivates us to maintain a dignified environment at our chat forum.
4. Spamming by posts or unsolicited emails to our forum members will not be tolerated. Neither will stealing emails for purposes of building clientele or personally contacting individual members without their given consent.
9. Information provided when setting up member account for posting must be accurate. False or deceptive address/contact information is not allowed.
Any further posts from this person will be quickly deleted - It takes less than 5 seconds to delete at once all posts from this individual under any fake name they continue to assume.
We have just cleaned up this thread again from some of the negative personal comments. Going forward, please ensure your comments are respectful and directly on topic without any personal references whatsoever. This is a subject of interest for many, and those who are not interested, don't need to read it.
Please do not reply to my post and continue with the topic of the thread.


A: Great question. We're not agents, and we don't list houses. We buy houses Fresno that fit our buying criteria. From there we may repair the house and resell it to another home owner or keep it as a rental ourselves.
A: We purchase houses according to the level of needed repair & what comparable properties are selling for. However, if you're in foreclosure you likely don't have equity… so we can often negotiate with the lender for a discount on the property. But, we bring to the table a fast, no hassle, all-cash offer… we can close quickly, are very flexible on terms of the sale, and will buy your house in any condition. If that's what you're looking for and you see the value in getting your house sold fast… lets talk and see if we can come to a fair win-win price.
A: There are NO fees or commissions to work with us. We'll make you an offer, and if its a fit… we'll buy your house (and we'll often pay for the closing costs too!). No hassle. No fees. Once we buy the house from you… the responsibility is ours and you walk away without the burden of the property and it's payments… and with cash in your hand.
A: Real estate agents list properties and hope that someone will buy them. The average time to sell a property in many markets right now is 6-12 months. As you know, you pay a commission as a % of the sales price when you work with a real estate agent. Often times it's 3-6% of the sales price (so if it's a $100,000 house, you'll pay between $3,000 – $6,000 in commissions to an agent). Agents provide a great service for those that can wait 6-12 months in many cases to sell and who have room to pay the commission on the sale. Our company actually buys houses. We don't list houses. Since we're actually the one buying the house from you, and we pay with all cash… we can make a decision to buy your house within a couple days (sometimes the same day).


text:
Chicago's Field Museum of Natural History was info overload
The Field Museum of Natural History is named in honor of its first major benefactor, the department-store magnate Marshall Field; the museum and its collections originated from the 1893 World's Columbian Exposition and the artifacts displayed at the fair
In 2000, the Field Museum unveiled Sue, the largest T. rex specimen ever discovered; estimated to be 67 million years old, Sue has a length of 40.5 ft, stands 13 ft tall at the hips, and has been estimated at between 8.4–14 metric tons
During a 9 month reign of terror in 1898, these two male lions (known as the Lions of Tsavo) preyed on railroad construction workers in Kenya; the lions killed 28 workers before they were captured
In September, 1938 a meteorite crashed through a garage roof in Benld, Illinois and ended up lodged in the seat cushion of a Pontiac after bouncing off the muffler
For decades, scientists thought the coelacanth had gone extinct millions of years ago because they had only seen it in fossils; in 1938 one was captured in South Africa and another in 1999 in Indonesia making it one of the rarest fish in the world
The Chicago skyline from the exit of the Field Museum; the museum has 150+ scientists and researchers that travel to the far corners of the world in search of new discoveries and clues to what life was like hundreds, thousands, and millions of years ago
The mammals and birds (like this gorgeous hyacinth macaw) were all once alive and have been taxidermied; most of the museum (which costs $40!) seemed to consist of dead animals
The kora is a musical instrument made by attaching a long, wooden neck to a calabash; there was a temporary exhibit on Senegal where the kora is traditionally played
The gemsbok is much more appealing when it's alive and bounding across the Karoo in South Africa; with the advent of the Internet, the museum today is probably more relevant as a leading research institution
Ceramic jar, Arizona, 750 AD; the professional staff maintains collections of 24+ million specimens and objects that provide the basis for the museum's scientific-research programs
These were the first two elephants to ever be taxidermied and have been the focal point of the Field Museum's main hall since 1909; some sections of the museum just seemed naturally dull such as botany, gems and anthropology
Can you imagine people lining up today to visit a natural history museum?; when the Field Museum opened this was the only place people could see exotic species and learn about what life was like in other parts of the world
Much of the Field Museum seemed very dry and dated; there was tons of information to read and much of it was too sophisticated for kids and too boring for adults

redpajama_set_name: RedPajamaCommonCrawl


text:
The Cascade Canyon Trail is a  round-trip long hiking trail in Grand Teton National Park in the U.S. state of Wyoming.

Description
The trailhead is at the South Jenny Lake parking area and follows the Jenny Lake Trail around the south shore of Jenny Lake to the Forks of Cascade Canyon. The trail passes near Hidden Falls after almost  then goes west into the heart of Cascade Canyon, flanked by Teewinot Mountain and Mount Owen to the south and The Jaw and Rock of Ages to the north. At the Forks of Cascade Canyon, the trail splits with the Lake Solitude Trail heading to Lake Solitude and Paintbrush Divide, while the South Fork Cascade Canyon Trail leads to Hurricane Pass. There are no camping areas along the trail though not far from the Forks, camping zones exist to the north and south. At South Jenny Lake, a boat shuttle operates during the summer which shortens the hike by .

See also
 List of hiking trails in Grand Teton National Park

References

Hiking trails of Grand Teton National Park

redpajama_set_name: RedPajamaWikipedia


Sen. Norm Coleman's American Action Network launches multi-million dollar ad campaign targeted at vulnerable Republican districts.
The National Republican Campaign Committee is targeting several Minnesota Democratic campaign challengers with digital ads attacking some party leaders' support for a single-payer healthcare system.
Paulsen's newly Democratic challenger raised nearly as much in half the time this spring.
The deep-pocketed Democrat running for Minnesota's Third Congressional District seat says his donations have come entirely from individual donations over the campaigns first six weeks.
Gov. Dayton and the Legislature: what happened, why and what comes next?
Minnesota state budget is settled, but Dayton extends political battle with lawmakers -- with likely legal consequences.
As President Trump's firing of FBI Director James Comey continues to rock the Capitol, Sen. Amy Klobuchar anticipates the Senate Judiciary Committee will play an important role in the aftermath.
Rep. Erik Paulsen called for an independent investigation into Russia's interference in the presidential election following President Trump's firing of FBI Director James Comey, going further than many GOP lawmakers in the aftermath of a move that has roiled the Capitol over the last day.
The attack ads are already starting against House Republicans who approved the controversial healthcare overhaul last week.
Reps. Erik Paulsen, Jason Lewis and Tom Emmer were among 217 House Republicans who voted to repeal and replace the Affordable Care Act on Thursday.
The tobacco industry spent at least $486,000 trying to influence Minnesota politics and government in 2016 and the first part of 2017.
The proposal is considerably smaller than the bonding plan proposed by DFL Gov. Mark Dayton, who wants to borrow $1.5 billion for roads, bridges, college campuses and other public projects.
A majority of House members voted against the proposal on procedural grounds, saying more meetings were needed.
GOP Party Chairman Keith Downey released a letter to a party committee questioning the judgment and competency of Deputy Chairman Chris Fields just days ahead of the election for party officers in St. Cloud Saturday.
Gov. Mark Dayton said that if the Legislature passes a 'satisfactory' transportation budget bill without a gas tax, he would be inclined to sign it into law.
Commissioner Cynthia Bauerly criticized GOP budget proposals from the House and Senate, which aim to cut millions from her department.
Lawmakers from minority groups try to unify, focus their message.
Hire indicates Nolan may be serious.
The Legacy funding bill was passed unanimously this week by the Minnesota House.
Before the Senate Judiciary Committee approved Neil Gorsuch's nomination to the Supreme Court along party lines, Minnesota's senators joined other Democrats on the panel in criticizing him for not protecting the interests of vulnerable people.
The Senate is considering its own tax cut bill that would cost $900 million and would include a reduction in the lowest tax bracket from 5.35 percent to 5.15 percent and eventually 5 percent.
The Democratic congressman, who has represented southern Minnesota since his election in 2006, told the Rochester Post-Bulletin that he's running for governor.


text:
Professor Michael Brady
Professor of Philosophy
Michael.Brady@glasgow.ac.uk
http://gla.ac.uk/schools/humanities/staff/michaelbrady/
Michael Brady is Professor of Philosophy at the University of Glasgow. His research focuses on issues in the philosophy of emotion, ethics, and epistemology. His monograph on these themes – Emotional Insight – was published by Oxford University Press in 2013. He is currently co-Principal Investigator on a major three-year research project, titled The Value of Suffering, which is funded by the John Templeton Foundation and hosted in the Philosophy Department, University of Glasgow. He was previously Director of the British Philosophical Association, and Secretary of the Scots Philosophical Association. He is on the editorial board of The Philosophical Quarterly and Oxford Bibliographies, and has worked as a philosophical advisor on a number of productions by the Manchester-based theatre company Quarantine.
I am currently writing a monograph on the nature and value of suffering. This includes chapters on the nature of suffering, different theories of unpleasantness, suffering as a virtue, suffering and character, religious approaches to suffering, and the social benefits of suffering.
The Value of Suffering: An Interdisciplinary Investigation of the Nature, Meaning, and Role of Affective Experience
Teaching Materials:
Course: Emotions (Philosophy, senior honours)
College of Arts, School of Humanities


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text:
//
//  JVTouchHelper.m
//  Pods
//
//  Created by Jorge Valbuena on 2015-04-20.
//
//

#import "JVTouchHelper.h"
#import "JVTouchEventsWindow.h"

#define RESOURCE_NAME @"JVTouchEventsWindow"

@implementation JVTouchHelper

/**
 *  Handles getting the bundle resources of our project
 *
 *  @return a NSBundle to our project
 */
+ (NSBundle *)myProjectResources
{
    static dispatch_once_t onceToken;
    static NSBundle *bundle = nil;

    dispatch_once(&onceToken, ^{
        // This bundle name must be the same as the product name for the resources bundle target
        NSURL *url = [[NSBundle bundleForClass:[JVTouchEventsWindow class]] URLForResource:RESOURCE_NAME withExtension:@"bundle"];

        if (!url) {
            url = [[NSBundle mainBundle] URLForResource:RESOURCE_NAME withExtension:@"bundle"];
        }

        bundle = [NSBundle bundleWithURL:url];
    });

    return bundle;
}

/**
 *  Handles getting our assets from the bundle resources of our project
 *
 *  @param the name of the asset
 *
 *  @return an UIImage
 */
+ (UIImage *)bundleImageNamed:(NSString *)name
{
    UIImage *imageFromMainBundle = [UIImage imageNamed:name];

    if (imageFromMainBundle) {
        return imageFromMainBundle;
    }

    NSString *imageName = [NSString stringWithFormat:@"%@.bundle/%@", RESOURCE_NAME, name];
    UIImage *imageFromBundle = [UIImage imageNamed:imageName];

    if (!imageFromBundle) {
        NSLog(@"Image not found: %@", name);
    }

    return imageFromBundle;
}

/**
 *  Creates an UIImage from color, to use as the touch event image
 *
 *  @param the UIColor of the image
 *
 *  @return an UIImage
 */
+ (UIImage *)imageWithColor:(UIColor *)color
{
    CGRect rect = CGRectMake(0.0f, 0.0f, 1.0f, 1.0f);
    UIGraphicsBeginImageContext(rect.size);
    CGContextRef context = UIGraphicsGetCurrentContext();

    CGContextSetFillColorWithColor(context, [color CGColor]);
    CGContextFillRect(context, rect);

    UIImage *image = UIGraphicsGetImageFromCurrentImageContext();
    UIGraphicsEndImageContext();

    return image;
}

/**
 *  Gets a NSString with the Hex color value and transforms it to a UIColor
 *
 *  @param the Hex color value as a NSString
 *
 *  @return an UIColor
 */
+ (UIColor *)colorWithHexString:(NSString *)stringToConvert
{
    //converts the hex value into a colour
    NSScanner *scanner = [NSScanner scannerWithString:stringToConvert];
    unsigned hexNum;
    if (![scanner scanHexInt:&hexNum]) return nil;
    return [self colorWithRGBHex:hexNum];
}

/**
 *  Gets a Hex color and transforms it to a UIColor using RGB
 *
 *  @param the Hex color value as an UInt32
 *
 *  @return an UIColor
 */
+ (UIColor *)colorWithRGBHex:(UInt32)hex
{
    //converts a hex number into a colour
    int r = (hex >> 16) & 0xFF;
    int g = (hex >> 8) & 0xFF;
    int b = (hex) & 0xFF;

    return [UIColor colorWithRed:r / 255.0f
                           green:g / 255.0f
                            blue:b / 255.0f
                           alpha:1.0f];
}

@end

redpajama_set_name: RedPajamaGithub


I've just finished integrating new features into DLL, my deep learning library. I've added support for an embeddings layer, a group layer and a merge layer. This is not yet released, but available in the master branch.
Embeddings are used more and more these days to learn dense representation of characters or word. An embedding layer in a neural network transform labels into a vector. It's generally used as the first layer of the network. The embedding are learned as part of the network.
The merge layer allows to create branches in the network. The input is passed to each sub layer and then the output of each layer is concatenated to form the output of the merged layers. This can be very useful to use different convolutional filter sizes.
The group layer is a simple utility to group layers together. This is mostly to use with merge layers to form several branches.
I've put together a new example to use these features on text classification. The dataset is totally synthetic for now, but this can easily be reproduced with a normal text classification dataset. This kind of model is called a Character Convolutional Neural Network.
The network starts with an embedding layer. The embedding is then passed to three convolutional layers with different filter sizes, each followed by a pooling layer. The outputs of the three layers are merged at the end of the merge layer. Finally, a softmax layer is used for classification.
This kind of model can be very powerful and is used regularly. These new features make for a much larger variety of models that can be build with the DLL library.
The next feature I want to focus on is recurrent neural networks. I'll probably try a single RNN layer first and then upgrade to multi-layers and LSTM and maybe GRU.