text:
R1a and R1b from an early Mongolian tomb
PLoS One has a new paper on a Mongolian imperial tomb dated to 1130–1250 AD, which is the early Mongolian era. Here's the table with the Y-haplogroup results:
The authors make the sensible conclusion that these Mongolians had paternal ancestry from somewhere in Western Eurasia. But they also make this stupid comment:
Similarly, the high frequency of R1b-M343 in geographic regions associated with the past Mongol khanates including the Golden Horde (from Ural Mountain to Western Siberia, which includes Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, Poland, Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, and Uzbekistan), Ilkhanate (Iran and neighboring territories including Armenia, Turkey, Georgia, Afghanistan, Syria, and Tajikistan), and Chagatai Khanate (from the Aral sea to the Altai mountain, including Pakistan (Hazara), Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, India, and China), strongly suggest a close association between the Y haplotype R1b-M343 and the past Mongol Empire.
No, the distribution, frequencies and subclades of R1a or R1b do not show any sort of meaningful correlation with the past Mongol Empire.
The most obvious explanation, although not the only possible one, for the presence of R1a and R1b lineages in Mongolian imperial remains are the migrations of the Afanasievo and/or Andronovo people into the Altai region from the Eastern European steppes during the Bronze Age. See here...
Hector said...
Your delusion is akin to claiming that Rurik dynasty had a paternal ancestry somewhere in East Asia.
R1a-Z93 and R1b-Z2103 expanded from Eastern Europe into Asia during the Bronze Age. No delusions about it.
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2016/04/signals-of-ancient-population.html
Now piss off you freak.
LOL you are quoting your own delusion as proof? Talk about conceit.
I'm quoting these papers knucklehead.
http://www.nature.com/ng/journal/v48/n6/full/ng.3559.html
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/full/nature14507.html
And let's throw in this one...
http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/S1872-4973(14)00116-1/abstract
You must be bored out of your brains to troll here. Or you're dumber than even I gave you credit for.
Hold on. Now I am totally confused. I thought R1a-Z93 came out of India. So, did the Mongols take it there before that time?
There is an article about 7000 years old Baikal graves and the oldest grave had R1a so its presence clearly dates back prior to Bronze age.
R1a in this pseudo-Golden Family was a common warrior, possibly a sacrificial victim. The article says so.
Z2103 was not typed. Only the most generic M343 that defines R1b at the highest upstream according to YFull. Their conclusion that you ridicule is based on YSTR and it is really crude and probably includes many too distantly related men.
This R1b is probably the same type as the one found in Elgyn Gol and Manchu etc.
As usual the quoted papers don't say what you claim.
I'm talking about R1a-Z93, which is the subclade that is found in Middle and Late Bronze Age European Kurgans and shows up in Mongolia during the Bronze Age with people of mixed pigmentation.
You know, Mongolia, where the tomb is located.
And there's no reason to assume that the R1b in the Mongolian tomb isn't originally from Afanasievo migrants, since eastern Yamnaya is basically all R1b at this stage.
You're delusional and plain stupid with a cherry on top. Fuck off.
This is your blog with the ability to delete what you don't like. On neutral grounds you know what I can do to you.
What is your problem exactly?
There were migrations from Europe to the Mongolian Altai during the Bronze Age of people belonging to Y-DNA R1.
Yes or no? If no, then this paper is wrong why?
And As I said the man was probably a sacrificial victim like the other female. I am sure your chest swells in pride for your distant uncle.
He was a warrior. But I don't give a crap what he was and how he died. I'm just explaining the most likely reason why R1a and R1b with western haplotypes ended up in these imperial graves.
On neutral grounds you know what I can do to you.
You're too stupid to debate me successfully except in your own mind. LOL
The paper initially lost me for many things. And then I looked up the list of authors and it cracked me up.
It even goes so far as to speculate that the "Queen"s husband was a Caucasoid male.
The principal author appears to be a Mongolian graduate student who still failed to earn a PhD after 10 years or so and the rest of the panel is made up of medical doctors and the likes. The corresponding author belongs to "Department of Science and Cultural Heritage".
"You're too stupid to debate me successfully except in your own mind. LOL"
Nobody can debates you. The reason is best left to your wild fantasy where everyone hates white folks.
Cited in the paper:
"Although the factual nature of the statement is controversial, Persian historian Rashid-al-Din reported in his "Jami's al-tawarikh" written at the start of the 14th century that most Borjigin ancestors of Genghis Khan were tall, long-bearded, red-haired, and bluish green-eyed, suggesting that the Genghis Khan's male lineage had some Caucasoid-specific genetic features [44]. He also said that Genghis Khan looked just like his ancestors, but Kublai Khan, his grandson, did not inherit his ancestor's red hair, implying that the addition of Mongoloid-specific alleles for determining hair color to the genetic makeup of Genghis Khan's Borjigin clan was probably from the grandmother or mother of Kublai Khan, that is, the wife or daughter-in-law of Genghis Khan."
A similar thing may have happened when "Bell Beaker" males interbred with the Mediterranean/Western Middle Eastern mtDNA H women. A whole lot of EEF ancestry was inherited.
That is like looking for Mongoloid characteristics among N-TatC Eastern Europeans. In rare cases you find them, it is more likely due to the fact he is East European than he is TatC.
And Why is "being tall" Caucasoid characteristics? Koreans are for instance taller than most Asian "Caucasoids" including Iranians, and substantially taller than most Near Easterners.
Fight the power Hector.
Goodness gracious the samples are very new , to have any such significance .
It's still interesting that the ruling and warrior classes that moved from Europe to the Altai during the Bronze Age may have still been in place there during the early Mongol period.
Neither to draw such conclusions . Wait for the SC Asian data . Then we can have a nice cup of tea together and talk about inter ethnic marriages ;) ....
If you read the full article it should be clear that the authors were aware that the male members were probably not of Borijigin clan. The female probably was and married to a Mongol/Central Asian prince of a different tribe. The authors are from the notorious JooAng University and they probably were just too desperate to get grants.
That is because the female MN125 appeared to have the highest status and her supposed sons died in their 30's. Anyone familiar with Mongols' political system will realize this is impossible. A prince in his 30's born of a high ranking consort(not to mention a queen) will outrank his mother or has the same status(in case the mother was the Queen). The female has to SERIOUSLY outrank the males there.
Anyway the males are most likely M73. That is pretty much the end of Davidski's fantasy but he will keep dreaming... like M73's came from Europe during the Bronze age or something. Puahahaha.
From memory, the Eastern European Hunter-Gatherer from the Samara region might belong to M73 or a sister clade. So there's no reason why Bronze Age Afanasievo people from Eastern Europe could not have brought M73 to the Mongolian Altai.
"Neither to draw such conclusions . Wait for the SC Asian data . Then we can have a nice cup of tea together and talk about inter ethnic marriages ;) ...."
Finally someone shows up with a breath of fresh air.
"So there's no reason why ...could not"
There is no reason why they should have.
And there is no reason why Rurik could not have been a male-line descendant of Neolithic Siberians and eventually even Early Neolithic/Late Mesolithic descendants of East Asians.
This pseudo-Golden family's YSTR also matches mostly Central Asians as they should since it belongs to M73.
Samara? It is like saying since Oase was K2a K2a originated from Europe.
Gioiello said...
I have to read the paper, anyway I found an haplotype quoted on Anthrogenica and it was clearly R-M73, as Hector recognizes: "Anyway the males are most likely M73. That is pretty much the end of Davidski's fantasy but he will keep dreaming... like M73's came from Europe during the Bronze age or something". I have many times said and very likely demonstrated that R-M73, thought from everyone Asiatic, is older in Europe and was amongst the Samara samples. Thus to find it in the 13th century AD doesn't mean anything about its origin, if not that R1a and R1b expanded from Europe to Asia. That will be clear with aDNA. Perhaps Hector should do his best in improving his autosome...
M73(or its ancestors) may have come from Europe at some point. But your chests don't need to swell in pride since there is very little regional genetic continuity.
You have a very nasty tendency to consider something to be yours when
1 It is about male line.
2 At some point in its history it was in Europe
On the other hand if something came from outside
you claim
1. Too long ago
2. Not enough evidence
Actually I quite agree on those points Hector.
Finally someone shows up with a breath of fresh air
You can never be his gf!.
ArtemisVentus said...
"Here, we propose that Genghis Khan and his family carried Y-haplogroup R1b-M343, which is prevalent in West Eurasia, rather than the Y-haplogroup C3c-M48, which is prevalent in Asia and which is widely accepted to be present in the family members of Genghis Khan. Additionally, Tavan Tolgoi bodies may have been the product of marriages between the lineage of Genghis Khan's Borjigin clan and the lineage of either the Ongud or Hongirad clans, indicating that these individuals were members of Genghis Khan's immediate family or his close relatives."
I think you skipped the most sensational part of that article!
I don't know if you remember when someone said that Genghis Khan, an hg. C3, would have had 13 or 16 millions descendants, but someone said that his wife, the beloved one, was a prisoner of another tribe and was given back with her belly enlarged... thus, as we don't know really who these persons were, I'd wait before making unsupported hypotheses. Certainly if also Genghis Khan belonged to the Villabruna clan, would be to me motive of proud, because anyway he was an extraordinary man. Anyway Mongolians has been better than Egyptians.
But Hector is speaking with me without quoting my name? Then my friend was right when said that he is obsessed from me!
Onur Dincer said...
The fact that the R1b and R1a found in this study have most of their Y-STR matches in Central Asia (SC Asia and Xinjiang included) means that they likely belong to the subclades M73 and Z93 respectively. Ancient DNA evidence so far seems to indicate that those subclades of R1b and R1a originated somewhere in Eastern Europe despite the fact that they are today much more concentrated in the continent of Asia than in Europe due to the Bronze Age migrations from Eastern Europe to Asia.
As for Y-DNA haplogroup N, according to the latest genetic analyses, it expanded to Eastern Europe only within the last 5,000 years and is originally from East Eurasia, which means it probably brought some East Eurasian (Mongoloid) genetics with it when it arrived in Eastern Europe and can explain much of the East Eurasian ancestry there.
@ Onur
"means that they likely belong to the subclades M73 and Z93 respectively"
The R-M73 is certain out of any doubt. I haven't studied the R1a, but I'd say downstream R-Z94 at least, being Z93 diffused above all in Europe, and Westernmost I'd say, also in Italy (see Grisi, etc.)
"...rather than the Y-haplogroup C3c-M48, ..."
C3c-M48 was never a candidate for Chinghis Khan's lineage;M48 is a candidate for Aisin Gioro, Manchu Dynasty. This paper is really poor, actually comical.
@Gioiello
To be specific, I think the R1a individual belongs to the subclade Z2124, the dominant Z93 and Z94 subclade of R1a in Central Asia.
I have no time now, otherwise I think I'd be able to understand also the last SNP, but consider H4=13, which should be 12 in FTDNA format.
It's not my quote, it was Rashid-al-Din, like it or leave it. It's not just being tall, which was also a characteristic of Yamnaya, but also blue eyes and red hair. Not exactly common in indigenous East Asian populations, and no reason to assume these mutations were common in and around 1100AD.
But then Chinghis Khan's actual portrait does not show any of it. Also this paper says that all individuals were Mongoloids.
Rashid al Din is not a reliable source;Read Mongolian scholars' voluminous publications on this or shut up.
In that part of the world blue eyes are uncommon but not completely unknown. On the other hand red hair is not that uncommon.
Stories about blue eyes and red or yellow(blonde) hair are fairly common probably bogus stories around the world. Sun's family as in Romance of Three Kingdoms fame(2-3rd C. Southern China) is said to have had blue eyes and some other stupid fantasies I don't remember.
Even if Chinghis Khan was M73 and had blue eyes and red hair, it is most certain that it has nothing to do with M73.
Coldmountains said...
The paper is quite bad and most of their conclusions are either just wrong or lack definitive evidences. I dont see why they have to be descendants of Dschingis Khan maybe i missed something . We can only surely say that they were aristocrats and belonged to the elite. But still very interesting that R1 males were still so powerful much after Indo-Europeans were pushed out of the region and some even think that the Ottomans were R1a (some of their alleged descendants belong to R1a)
The first people to develop horse-based steppe pastoralism logically ought to have spread over the whole steppe east-west.
If they raided the peoples to their south they would eventually come to look like them with only the y dna as a clue to the history.
If the y dna flipped at some later point then it would suggest the first people to spread over the steppe got out competed for some reason at some later point by a second group.
so group one can say "we did it first, yay us" and the second group can say "yeah but we kicked you out later, yay us"
same data with spin for everyone
(the Chinese records talk about red-haired steppe barbarians so the idea that Yamnaya types spread over the steppe in the Bronze age or before but were then later displaced from the east doesn't seem particularly strange so i'm not sure what the problem is)
Coldmountains
"very interesting that R1 males were still so powerful much after Indo-Europeans were pushed out of the region and some even think that the Ottomans were R1a"
I think it's likely connected to the way tribal alliances seem to have worked. If you have a lot of patrilineal clans combined in tribal alliances and one alliance loses to another i imagine some of the sub-clans simply swear loyalty to the new boss tribe.
I think as long as the "horse highway" Eurasian Steppe was in full function (so until when the Mongol dynasties died out), there was always an exchange of genes occurring across it.
Atriðr said...
R-M207 might be telling.
Waiting for more data is always good, but I'd bet we are looking at East-to-West-to-East movement.
The lack of expansion into West Europe should also be very telling.
@Hector.
There is no reason to doubt Rashid-al-Din's claims other than what they are.
You need to study your R1 subclades a little better.
No doubt that Z93 is originally from Eastern Europe, and M73 likely is too.
"There is no reason to doubt Rashid-al-Din's claims other than what they are"
No use telling me that. Tell that to Mongolian scholars as well as to 99 percent of Western academia.
"You need to study your R1 subclades a little better."
Actually you should.
The samara R1b is 7000BP and was negative for M478 and other SNPs on that branch. Since M73(so far equivalent to M478) has TMRCA of 7300BP and assuming that they tried more SNPs other than M73 and M478 on that branch it is nearly certain that Samara does not belong to this branch which means Samara line diverged from M73 line more than 13500 years ago.(Even if they tested only M478 it is still unlikely since the only scenario to your liking is that M478 occurred very near 7000BP on a branch 7300BP - 13500BP)
Presence of such a distant cousin gives no indication where M73 line existed at that time and moreover it is very unlikely that already diversified M73 line(by the time of Bronze Age) moved over to Central Asia whole-sale leaving very few in Europe.
I doubt you understand what I am saying. Bah.
"ottomans were R1a"
Let's try not to sound so pathetic
Hector,
People a lot more capable than you have looked at the Samara sequence.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQSnowY29UU09HSmM/view?usp=sharing
So the stage is set for the R1b in Mongolia to be from the Bronze Age Eastern European steppes.
But I doubt you understand what I am saying. Bah
"very interesting that R1 males were still so powerful much after Indo-Europeans were pushed out of the region"
You guys crack me up, man.
Say the Newegg owner Fred Chang is Q-M120(fairly common haplo among northern Chinese). 20000 years later he and his son were found with all his luxury goods by future archaeologists. Upon genotyping them they ponder " Wow, even after Native Americans had been wiped out there were still very wealthy Q guys on the US territory."
"No use telling me that. Tell that to Mongolian scholars as well as to 99 percent of Western academia."
Graves are being found. In light of new data, academia will be adapting.
@Hector
You need to rise above your mental problems.
The spread of warrior elites from the Eastern European steppes during the Bronze Age had a profound impact on many cultures way down the line, both in Europe and Asia.
This is interesting and important and needs to be studied closely. And it will, so get used to it.
warrior elites from the Eastern European steppes
They were warrior elites, and lived in the Eastern European steppes. But they also lived in Siberia.
And which came first...
"People a lot more capable than you have looked at the Samara sequence."
I am confident that there are not all that many in this field. Certainly not among amateurs.
I am not going to claim I am smarter than Field Award winners or Nobel Physics winners but you are not going to browbeat me that easily.
Do you even know how to read this kind of graph?
10124 is the case number, it is not an SNP. They have not tested any other SNPs on that branch to locate Samara on that branch. TMRCA estimate of 7300BP makes it very unlikely. However it can be that Samara is on a branch diverging earlier but running collaterally with the M478 line.(I erred here in my previous post and you obviously did not catch it) Even if that is the case it still does not say "they were there together".
However a better bet is that Samara still falls on the M269 side(since TMRCA of extant M269s is 6500BP) or even on a branch that diverged earlier.
"Graves are being found. In light of new data, academia will be adapting."
Gosh, another loon. Good Bye.
10124 is the case number, it is not an SNP. They have not tested any other SNPs on that branch to locate Samara on that branch.
They didn't report them. But they did test them. The BAM files are here...
http://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB8448
Bahaha.
No chance.
@Atriðr
I'm not aware of any warrior elites in Siberia prior to the Andronovo people, are you?
Some useful new reading here on this topic...
https://www.academia.edu/28416779/Anthony_2016_chapter_1_and_2_final_proofs_Samara_Valley_Project_and_evolution_of_pastoral_economies_in_Eurasian_steppe
Elite dominance only works for western european genetic fantasies I guess.
Should be no surprise to hear of r1b in mongols since from historical references we know that ghengis khan had red hair and green eyes.
It is most popular to assume that language = genetic = leaders but many times it's not the case especially for a true elite dominance as with the Normans - who conquered everyone and then promptly seemingly disappeared as a people.
The early settlers of north eurasia were obviously white and what we think of as mongols did not come west until relatively recently. Probably they raided and took so many slaves and wives from the SE that eventually they became 'asian' in spite of their original affinities. Not sure why this is a controversy we basically already know all this from history and dna.
Thanks, just downloaded. I'll read it, then respond.
If I'm a loon, then I'm in good company. And in all likelihood, your conclusions intersect with mine so drop the chip on your shoulder.
Afanasevo is older and is South Siberia.
Tavan Tolgoi and Elite cemetery,
ANU, isotope-study
"Food fit for a Khan: Stable isotope analysis of the elite Mongol Empire cemetery at Tavan Tolgoi, Mongolia"
https://researchers.anu.edu.au/publications/98072
University of Arizona-dating-
"DATING THE TAVAN TOLGOI SITE, MONGOLIA: BURIALS OF THE NOBILITY
FROM GENGHIS KHAN'S ERA"
Golden Falcon-
"The golden ring with the falcon seal inside it, from grave 1 (2004), shows a close relationship with
burial sites dating to the Golden Horde lineage of Genghis Khan. The falcon is mentioned in the
histories dating from Genghis Khan's Golden Horde, including historical manuscripts and legends
of the 12th–13th centuries. For example, in the 63rd part of the Secret History of Mongols
(Damdinsuren 1947), Temüüjin (Genghis Khan) was described as a falcon,"
https://journals.uair.arizona.edu/index.php/radiocarbon/article/view/2964/2723
But Afanasievo originated in Eastern Europe mostly from local hunter-gatherers. Afanasievo genomes are identical to those of Yamnaya. See map here...
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQdzRlWXBQaXlnMGc/view?usp=sharing
So now you want me to hold your hand as you fumble about with a BAM file?
While at it, Afanasevo is closer to the Steppe ancestry found in South Asians than is Andronovo.
This is a big tell.
And the paper you linked me itself, mentions info that Anthony himself hasn't connected. Here's a quote from Anthony:
"Finno-Ugric, the prehistoric ancestor of the Uralic languages spoken today in the forest zone north of the Samara Valley, borrowed vocabulary from both common Indo-Iranian and early Iranian (Koivulehto 2001), proving that these ancient languages bordered each other..."
Indo-Iranian has zero Finno-Ugric loan words. But Finno-Ugric has Indo-Iranian loan words... some try the elite dominance model to explain, but pretty much every language that is bordered to each other, exchange words.
Looking at Afanasevo EMBA vs. Andronovo MLBA in South Asians, looking at the linguistic Finno-Ugric - I-I loan words... the movement starts pointing outwards of Afanasevo (or thereabouts)... and also pointing to an East to West model.
East to West model.
Like I said, Afanasievo genomes are identical to Yamnaya genomes; a mixture of Eastern European Hunter-Gatherers, Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers and Near Eastern farmers.
You're basically now arguing that up is down and down is up when you're saying that people like Afanasievo migrated to Eastern Europe, because they'd be migrating to their homeland.
"Like I said, Afanasievo genomes are identical to Yamnaya genomes; a mixture of Eastern European Hunter-Gatherers, Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers and Near Eastern farmers."
But Afanasevo and Andronovo are a little different; basically Andronovo is Afanasevo with exposure to more CHG and Near Eastern farmers.
How much ANE does EHG have?
"So now you want me to hold your hand as you fumble about with a BAM file?"
You are bluffing. LOL. It is impossible to go through them with YFull tree unless you have a table ready. I don't think YFull guys even registered their commercial SNPs with NCBI.
Anyway even Genetiker missed it.
He may be a nut but he has a lot of time on hands.
Even if Samara is on that branch if it diverged early enough it still says nothing about the possible origin of extant M73's. The branch formation was 13500BP so I need the list of SNPs shared with M73 line and those that got negative calls to make the time estimate of divergence since there is 0 chance that it is a direct ancestor of M73's(no negative call).
Doesn't seem like you know much on the topic, because you seem to be claiming that Eastern European and Caucasian Hunter-Gatherers mixed somewhere in Asia to produce Yamnaya and Afanasievo.
But they mixed in Eastern Europe on the western steppes.
Nope, Andronovo is Yamnaya with exposure to Middle Neolithic European farmers, and thus almost identical to Corded Ware from Central Europe.
EHG are about 75% ANE overall. But so what, your East to West model doesn't fly.
Not "no negative call".
I meant "no extra SNPs" for it to be the direct ancestor.
Yes, they did. Never claimed otherwise.
Exactly. That was the point of my question.
ANE went to Eastern European Steppes. Mixed/Conquered. Then went back to Afanasevo area.
Back and forth. Back and forth.
Where the first Indo-European languages started, that's another story. But EHG are basically the ANE conquerors.
Nope. They mixed in Yamnaya or somewhere in that zone. Not in Asia. Why would they? The Caucasus mountains aren't there.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4664-Request-Y-DNA-haplogroup-results-from-Allentoft-2015&p=91529&viewfull=1#post91529
Then why are you claiming that Afanasievo was native to Siberia, as opposed to an offshoot of Yamnaya (or an offshoot of proto-Yamnaya)?
Afanasievo was the first group from Eastern Europe that moved to Asia, and they weren't warriors as such, more like cow herders.
The warrior thing developed more with Sintashta in the southern Urals, and was carried to Asia by its offshoot Andronovo.
I'm not. I'm claiming South Siberia inhabitants conquered Eastern Europe. Became something new through the mix, then went backwards with new knowledge and blood to form Afanasievo. Then this was repeated again by a later group: Andronovo.
It got lost in translation because I brought it up against Andronovo as it is useful to look at the model using the latest EMBA/MLBA data.
I doubt that. They knew metal work. But I'll wait here for more data.
Sintashta. Well, that's a conundrum. I used to be a firm believer in that too. But that lack of Andronovo in South Asia gave me pause. I'm still working this one out, but it's going to be a modified version of the current model.
Only 3 SNPs analyzed.
Y13872+, M478-, Y13866-
But if you still require results even if it is too crude...
2/3 x (13500-7000) ~ 4400 You get more than 11000 BP as the divergence time.
This tells nothing about the origin of this branch. It may very well be that it moved from Siberia to Eastern Europe/Western Asia.
There may be more SNPs that got calls. Either positive or negative.
10 SNPs should be enough for a rough estimate.
Unless there is an app it takes too much time.
If you do it manually just a single SNP will take like 30 min.
Jeong Ann(who made the KM marker system still in use by researchers) actually did it manually. He told so...
This case is easier since I can use YFull company's SNPs.
I think Genetiker should do it. He beats all of us in free time.
@Coldmountains
some even think that the Ottomans were R1a (some of their alleged descendants belong to R1a)
Those people who claim to be patrilineal descendants of the House of Osman (the Ottoman dynasty) on Ysearch have not been confirmed to be so and the living representatives of the House of Osman do not verify the existence of any House of Osman members who have taken a genetic test. Thus the R1a affiliation of the House of Osman rests on shaky ground.
Russian H/G 5640 BC+/-
-placement-R1b-M73-Y13872/ downstream clusters
Bashkir-Bashkorstan_Akyar
Mongolian-Mongolia,_Zavkhan
Kolomets, Ukraine
Hazara, Pakistan
http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b-M343xM269%20Y-DNA%20tree_04_07_29_2016.png
Lathdrinor said...
Highly doubtful that it is Genghis Khan's haplogroup, considering the distribution of R1b-M73 today. Genghis's descendants by all indications were very successful at carrying on his paternal line. To see so little of it survive in the former territories of the Mongol Empire would be unlikely. I do not think that the paper's authors could've or should've went that far. It was an elite tomb and high in status, but that could've corresponded to any number of elite families from either the Mongols or their allies/vassals. The Mongols were known to have employed a large population of "Semu" drawn from various populations of West and Central Asia, who in turn became prominent and powerful, and intermarried with the Mongol ruling class.
As to where R1b-M73 came from, the argument is as amusing as it is petty. Clearly there is no 100% fool proof way with current methods and data to show that a particular ancient haplogroup could have originated from only one specific location. Why try to insist on it? Parsimony favors Eastern Europe or the region of Siberia immediately east of it, leave it at that.
Why try to insist on it? Parsimony favors Eastern Europe or the region of Siberia immediately east of it, leave it at that.
With an approach like that, we'd never have pondered any mysteries and would still be living in caves.
We have multiple strings of data: linguistic, archaeological, and biological.
We'll find the answer soon enough.
I hate to quote wikipedia but ...
The closest depiction generally accepted by most historians is the portrait currently in the National Palace Museum in Taipei, Taiwan, which was drawn under the supervision of his grandson Khubilai during the Mongol Yuan dynasty and depicts Genghis Khan with typical Mongol features.
And someone tells me that ,instead, I have to trust the words of a certain Persian guy executed for corruption. That is supreme loonitude.
The portrait may be interpreted as showing slightly red eyebrows but clearly very brown eyes.
And what does any of these has to do with "revising according to archaeological results"? No hair sample or eyeballs were found. Skeletal features were all Mongoloid. ??
A loon is a loon.
@Atriðr I'm not saying to cease research on the subject, but to stop insisting on it when the methods and data are insufficient for proving either, or indeed any number of, possible locations. What ultimately will be necessary to show the area from which M73 spread is more data, especially ancient DNA, or different methods, but even then it won't be 100% because you can always make up a less parsimonious model to explain the same samples. I've worked on statistics long enough to know that the numbers never lie; rather it's the people who use them to push their own agendas who can twist anything into supporting their own views.
"Russian H/G 5640 BC+/-
-placement-R1b-M73-Y13872/ downstream clusters"
That is false. It was done by amateurs.
Samara clearly is not directly ancestral to M73 since it was 7000BP and it gets negative call on probably at least half of the SNPs on 7300BP - 13500BP branch.
Much like MA1 is collateral to the ancestors of R1-R2, Samara runs collaterally to the direct ancestors of modern M73's.
if you are capable of understanding...
@Lathdrinor
Maybe you should re-read my comments. There's plenty of data and the data is talking. The picture might not be perfect, but it's starting to come together. And if new data comes in - good, more fun.
I wrote a lot, as usual against all, about the possible origin also of R-M73 in Western Europe rather than in Asia. And everyone should know that, when the R1b were found in Samara and everyone thought having found the proof of the origin of R1b from Eastern Europe, I wrote a lot saying that those samples were only due to a migration of some limited haplotypes around R-L23 from West. After has been found Villabruna, 100% WHG, and everyone should know that not only Samara but Anatolians and Middle Easterners were partially due to a migration from the Villabruna clan and not the other way around. Of course I said that some haplotypes downstream R-L23 may have been born in Eastern Europe and migrated later Westward, as R-CTS7763 and some subclades of R-L584 or L277, but my thinking is that already when the migration from West happened (perhaps the migration of the hunter-gatherers during the invasion of the agriculturalists from Anatolia/Balkans), some close haplotypes stayed in the West, not only the R-L51 but also my R-Z2110, which generated the downstream subclades of R-CTS9219 which migrated Eastward later.
But I think that also about the R-M73 haplotypes happened the same, not being the Western haplotypes of Eastern origin. These are the reasons:
European/Asian clusters:
DYS390=25,26 / 19,24
DYS389II=+15 / +16 or more
DYS459b=10 / =9
DYS442 modal 14 / modal 12
DYS537 modal 11/ modal 10
DYS487 modal 14 /modal 13
Anyway this European haplotype is the weirdest:
180669 Mathis Rapp, b. 1645 Boofzheim, Bas-Rhin, Alsace France R-M73
12 25 14 10 14-14 12 12 12 14 12 29 16 9-10 11 11 22 15 20 31 13-13-15-16 10 10 19-25 15 18 18 18 32-36 14 10 11 8 16-16 8 11 10 8 11 11 13 23-23 17 10 14 12 13 8 15 22 20 13 12 11 16 11 11 12 12
and I think that a Full Genome and an YFull exam would be very interesting.
@Atrior I don't know what you would consider plenty because what is presently available for M73 is clearly insufficient for ascertaining its location of origin. In fact you can even challenge the same for the much more well-studied M269, which has an order of magnitude more samples, and yet was/is nonetheless a source of controversy. People, especially on the internet, will commonly say the case is closed only for it to be opened again a year later. Instead of trying to twist the numbers towards one particular theory, it is much more academic and professional to accept all possibilities and to simply state what is more parsimonious. That would be an objective description as opposed to what went on in this paper which was clearly not objective.
I still don't understand what the big fuss is about? Let me just quote myself...
The most obvious explanation, although not the only possible one, for the presence of R1a and R1b lineages in Mongolian imperial remains are the migrations of the Afanasievo and/or Andronovo people into the Altai region from the Eastern European steppes during the Bronze Age.
What I wrote there shouldn't be a problem for anyone who is able to comprehend plain English and doesn't suffer from any serious mental issues.
I get the gist of what you are saying; but you are projecting these ideas on the wrong crowd.
As I mentioned way above, in light of new data, adapt.
Wealth of linguistic & archaeological data; biological data is pouring in every month.
You say: Instead of trying to twist the numbers...
Who do you claim is doing this? Debate them directly.
Davidski's fixation on "Europe" is comical.
I have not exactly measured it but it appears that Samara to Lake Baikal is shorter than Samara to Spain. They probably did not think as much when they had to move to Kazakstan, Uzbekistan or even Lake Baikal as they would have if they were forced to move to France. They clearly did not think of themselves as Europeans nor is it likely that they felt any kind of kinship to the folks far West and far South in Iberia.
If they lived they would be LOLOF when they realize some guy - not much related to them - is worshiping them, taking great pride in someone else's ancestors with a image of horse-riding(even before the domestication of horses much less riding them) super-brawn flexing, kick-ass blonde military elites.
postneo said...
@Atrior
"Sintashta. Well, that's a conundrum. I used to be a firm believer in that too. But that lack of Andronovo in South Asia gave me pause. I'm still working this one out, but it's going to be a modified version of the current model."
Apparently Kuzmina's writings have indications are that andronovo may not have moved south, rather sourthern andronovo or fedorovo is atleast as old as andronovo proper. Its just that archeology and sampling in places like uzbegistan and tajikistan are not up to par with places further north.
Same goes for afnasievo. It cannot simply called a yamnaya offshoot given its already known early chronology. It is under sampled both in terms of digs as well as ancient dna.
I don't think there's any fuss.
Caucasoids have been in Mongolia for millennia. We have the archaeological proof; historical proof in records; and now the DNA is coming in.
@postneo
The dates for Afanasievo have been revised. It's not older than Yamnaya. You should know that.
And no, Z93 did not enter the steppe from the south. You should know that too.
100% correct.
But until we find, we cannot claim... however, it will help to prospect.
Afanasievo itself however, shows the Eastern European influences. So talking about unknowns using current semantics is confusing as was demonstrated earlier.
@Atrior it should be obvious that I'm addressing anyone who thinks they can ascertain where R1b-M73 came from using only present evidence & methods, which are *insufficient* for this task. For an even remotely accurate picture, a comprehensive set of M73 subclades would need to be determined, and a corresponding set of ancient DNA samples collected. This Mongol sample from the 12th century is one step in a long process, which has barely begun for M73, while for M269 it might be said to be well under way. There is no need to adapt because there is barely anything relevant to that question in this paper and the authors were way too quick to jump to conclusions in almost every claim they made. I consider this a poor paper overall in its interpretation of the data though the data itself is of value.
André de Vasconcelos said...
Stirrups are not 'sine qua non' for horsemen warriors, a proper saddle is enough and cavalry was used centuries before the Avars or Huns. Examples of Celto-Roman four-pommeled saddles were tested and proven to be efective at keeping the rider on top despite impacts. Riders could force the leg, on the side of the blow, up against the saddle-pommel to force their bodies straighten back up.
Additionally stirrups were even probably first developed to help the rider get on top of the horse, which is why early depictions only show one stirrup. Sure, they ended up being an additional help for fighting, but they are not necessary.
Obviously I'm not picturing ramparing hordes of horseback riders during the bronze age laying waste to everything, but the point remains, saddles are not that critical, and the fact that the Scythians did it so early on should have been enough to prove that point.
"The dates for Afanasievo have been revised. It's not older than Yamnaya. You should know that."
There's roughly a 4900km distance to deal with though.
Here are two images of those Celto-Roman saddles, in case anyone is interested:
http://www.caerleon.net/history/army/saddle2.jpg
http://www.romeacrosseurope.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/saddle.jpg
So what? It's a straight run across a flat steppe.
Afanasievo is identical to Yamnaya, and it did not migrate back to Europe.
Just from technological point of view this paper would have been OK if this were 2008. Their analysis would still suck but just purely the technical side...
Koreans are like 8 years or more behind guys like Paabo. but Mongols keep feeding them the valuable remains for analysis. I know several Korean papers that came out about 10 years ago and they used absolutely wasteful, primitive and brutal methods to analyze Mongolian aDNA. They analyzed like 50 specimen each time just with 2 SNPs. O and Yap, later C. The rest you had to guess. I am sure they cut chunks of bones to just get that.
The final insult is that they were considered unreliable even by their Korean colleagues. So much valuable material for nothing.
Typing aDNA should not be a training ground for their limited expertise.
And I think it is the same JoongAng university working in Harappa or something.
Don't expect much more than this paper. Maybe like 10 SNPs at most. And 10 STR loci many of which will be no calls.
They should be stopped somehow.
Ahoy, Mateys/ dimwit's, and those suffering from mild to severe cases of Attention Deficit Disorder.
If you don't accept Mongolian R1b M73 coming from West, then what about R1b-Z2106 West to East link ? :)
R-Z2106Y12538/Z8131 * Z2106formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybpinfo
R-Z2106* R-CTS8966CTS7763 * CTS8966 * CTS2437formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybpinfo R-CTS8966* id:NAxxxxxCHB
http://www.kumbarov.com/ht35/R1b-M269xP312xU106_tree_30_09_12_2016.png
Tabassarans, Dagestan-R-CTS8966CTS7763 * CTS8966 * CTS2437formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 4500 ybpinfo
I feel there is some anarchy and ethnic +racial taunts in the discussion here. I urge everybody to just calm down a bit , it is natural to have ethnocentrism from person of each ethnic groups but please there is a limit of things.
Keep things in a friendly manner , do not insult others or show offense .
I nominate that eurogenes should transform itself into a sunken circular pit, covered with sand. A palisade to erected around the top.
Now, enter the protagonists. Ritualistically, they are to be equipped with fake, symbolic sharp pointed wooden fake beaks strapped to their mouths, false cockcombs worn as wigs, and symbolic chicken's feet, complete with sharp hind-spurs, worn as boots.
Let the squawking commence!
It is likely that the R1a found in Mongolia is of this subclade:
6. ..>Z280>CTS1211>Y35>CTS3402>YP237>YP582>YP578*-x2 (YP578 not tested; Big Y or Z280 SNP pack needed)
220743 Russian Federation R-Z283
13 26 16 11 11-14 12 12 10 13 11 30 17 9-10 11 11 23 14 20 32 13-15-15-16 11 12 19-23 15 17 18 19 37-39 13 11 11 8 17-18 8 11 10 8 11 10 12 20-22 15 10 12 12 14 8 14 23 21 12 12 11 13 11 11 12 13 31 15 9 15 12 26 27 19 13 12 12 12 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 29 12 14 24 12 9 10 19 15 19 11 24 15 12 15 24 12 23 19 10 15 17 9 12 11
You mean a contamination?.
@ Nirjhar007
Very likely not. The Mongolian sample has only about 750 years, and that person was linked to Russian R1a of to-day. What strange?
No I guess its not ..
"Davidski's fixation on "Europe" is comical."
A lot of (most?) people would like their "home" region to have been historically significant. Some people's home region was near the horses.
Them's the breaks.
Grizzlor said...
So Genghis was a goldilocked aryan superhuman after all.
Yeah! We just have to adjust the stereotypical Aryan looks a bit.:-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan#/media/File:YuanEmperorAlbumGenghisPortrait.jpg
In the portrait, Genghis' beard and hair have a slight reddish tone. And maybe he was getting bald as many western men do.
In any case, the paper says that R1b skeletons were Mongoloid.
From the linguistic point of view, there are several words of western origin in the Mongolic languages (but I do not have time to give examples), and Mongol language has also developed masculine - feminine distinction, as IE languages, which is rare in the languages of that area.
As Afanasievo yDNA is still not coming, I only add that if these noble Mongols belong to R1b-M73, their line could be derived from the Samara hunter-gatherer y-line.
"Of the total of 193 R1b-M73 chromosomes detected, all except two Russians occurred outside Europe, either in the Caucasus, Turkey, the Circum-Uralic and North Pakistan regions" (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3039512/)
Wikipedia is not very informative about M73 but they say that "R1b-M73 is reportedly the dominant haplogroup among the Kumandin of the Altai Republic in Russia."
@ Kristiina
Certainly these R-L73 belong to the Samara haplotypes and not to the Western European ones, I think older (look at a post of mine above):
DYS390=25,26 / 19 to 24
Of course M73
Considering that R1b-M73 is almost non existent in Indo-Iranians, and the presumed Tocharians from Xiaohe are R1a and not R1b, my presumption is that Central Asian R1b-M73 guys spoke pre-proto-Turkic. The highest frequencies are clearly among several Turkic groups and also Samoyed-speaking southern Selkups seem to have 12,5% of M73. Indo-European similarities in Mongolic languages could rather be due R1a1 guys. Of course, more data is welcome.
Of course I think that some R-M73 from Samara (of course I think that they with all the other subclades of R1b1-L389+ came from West), present there already 7500 years ago, reached some Group in Siberia of Turkish Language, not that they were there from so long. The differentiation of Altaic from Nostratic may not be so Young, also being closer Uralic, which doesn't seems having much R-M73.
@Kristiina
Considering that R1b-M73 is almost non existent in Indo-Iranians, and the presumed Tocharians from Xiaohe are R1a and not R1b, my presumption is that Central Asian R1b-M73 guys spoke pre-proto-Turkic. The highest frequencies are clearly among several Turkic groups and also Samoyed-speaking southern Selkups seem to have 12,5% of M73.
Proto-Turkics may well have had R1b-M73, among other haplogroups, as the Proto-Turkic language was spoken as recently as the Iron Age, but I do not think the Samara hunter-gatherer, who is the earliest known R1b-M73 bearer, was speaking a precursor of the Turkic languages; he is too western in genetics, not to mention his geography and era, to be a speaker of a precursor of the Turkic languages. What do you think?
I only said that pre-proto-Turkic R1b-M73 would be derived from Samara hunter-gatherer yDNA without any suggestion about the language spoken by him. Before making any such statements, we should get some light on the relationship between Mongolic, Tungusic and Turkic languages. This R1b-M73 finding could support a genetic relationship between Mongolic and Turkic languages.
I have not been against Nostratic constructions and Samara hunter-gatherer may have spoken such a language. Apart from the gender system of the IE languages, the differences between Uralic, proto-IE constructions and Turkic languages are not so great and they share for example personal pronouns. Hittite did not make the gender distinction, so it has been suggested that proto-IE did not have gender.
You Kristiina I Gioiello
ubi Caius ego Caia
(to be pronounced: ubi Gaius ego Gaia, C for G is from Etruscan tradition)
I have always spoken to you pronouncing your name, even long i
Gioiello, grazie mille!
Sei un gentil'uomo. L'apprezzo molto!
According to Davidski, pre-Proto-Indo-Europeans were a EHG population from East European Mesolithic in and around or close to the Samara area. So you disagree with Davidski about the possible pre-Proto-Indo-European identity of the Samara hunter-gatherer even if you do not regard him as pre-Proto-Turkic or pre-Proto-Altaic either. So do you think the Samara hunter-gatherer spoke an extinct language family without any connection to any existing language family? Or do you think he spoke an extinct Nostratic branch? Can you elaborate on these?
Hittite did not make the gender distinction, so it has been suggested that proto-IE did not have gender.
But Hittite had the animate-inanimate distinciton, which is considered a precursor to the Indo-European masculine–feminine distinction.
Onur, I do not have my mind set! I do not have a clear picture of the linguistic prehistory. I am waiting for new data. Also new linguistic data would be very welcome.
As for pre-Proto-Indo-European, I must admit that I am more interested in Indo-Uralic, because I find it frustrating that Indo-European is hoarding everything to itself, and with respect to Uralic, almost all but Siberian stuff is defined loanwords, and this even though proto-IE already has several synonyms for the same word.
I do not know if there are any linguistic theories about pre-Proto-Indo-European. I do not know if we currently really have any means to investigate such a language? Is anyone aware of such academic papers?
I understand that you can use that concept in the discussions, in particular, in archaeological contexts and in population genetics but I do not know if you can really have much linguistic evidence in support of it at the moment.
I should better not reply to you on the issue of the genetics and geography of pre-Proto-Indo-Europeans as it is David's hypothesis I am talking about, not mine, and I do not have a hypothesis on them myself. As for Indo-Uralic, I find that hypothesis interesting and worth investigating, I have done some readings on it and find it plausible, even more so than Ural-Altaic. I'd like to hear your opinions on it too as a linguist.
Now I remember that there is this North Caucasian substrate theory by R. Bomhard, to which David referred to in this post: http://eurogenes.blogspot.lu/2015/05/the-origins-of-proto-indo-european.html
I think that he is onto something with it. However, I do not think that pre-proto-IE is simply proto-IE minus Northwest Caucasian substrate; and the relationship with Uralic should also be resolved before we can confidently define the pre-proto-IE language.
Yes, I read that article by Bomhard and David's post about it. I also think that they are onto something. But I think the connections between the Indo-European and Uralic languages are more likely to be due to language contact than common descent. But western Uralic languages likely also have some IE substratum due to their expansions into IE lands.
We all prefer certain indications over others in order to build the picture that we want to be true. Uralic area is almost completely unsampled and we do not have any autosomal analyses, so I would abstain from making any definite statements. This is also true for most parts of Siberia, as we only have a handful of very old samples and they do not give much of a picture of the recent developments. The picture is clearer only in the Baikal - Altai area and IMO the samples show that the Uralic roots are not there.
We are not totally in dark with regards to Uralic origins. We have modern genetics, ancient and modern linguistics, archeology and history that guide us in our search for ancient Uralics. Ancient DNA data currently help at least by showing where we should not look for ancient Uralics. There are indications that Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Uralic came into contact sometime in the past and more so for some of their branches after the diversification of the proto-languages. But of course more ancient DNA data are needed to know for sure where and when ancient Uralics lived and to track their migrations.
Whilst Indo-Uralic enjoys support from many linguists, IIRC, the only unequivocally proven loans are from Indo -Aryan into FU.
To call the samara hunter gatherer even "pre-PIE" is very tenuous. Who knows what (likely extinct) language branch he spoke , and his Line, like later Khvakynsk, are not relevant for IEs. Even for more western steppe foragers, who knows what language they spoke, and how their descendants in 3000 BC acquired their putative PIE: straightforward & linearly through
Vertical inheritance, or via more complex Processes of shifts & horisontal acquisition ?
The only time depth we can go for PIE is just that - PIE. This the only reachable conclusion is that PIE existed and *spread* after the secondary products revolution and advent of metallurgy, from somehwere around the Carpatho-Caspian region, as it seems
The R-M73 samples in the "Italy FTDNA Project" aren't since now not 2 but 3:
277246 Dominic Paolino b. bf 1879 Italy R-M173
12 25 14 11 13-14 12 12 11 14 13 29 16 9-10 11 11 22 15 20 31 12-15-16-16 11 11 19-24 15 11 16 17 34-35 14 10
R1b1a1 39685 Giorgio Mainenti (1826-1868) Italy R-M73
12 25 14 11 13-14 12 12 11 14 13 29 16 9-10 11 11 22 15 20 32 12-15-16-16 11 11 19-23 15 15 15 19 34-35 14 10 11 8 16-16 8 11 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 17 8 13 22 20 13 12 11 14 11 11 12 12 34 15 9 15 12 26 27 19 13 11 13 13 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 31 12 15 24 13 11 10 22 15 20 12 23 16 11 14 24 12 23 18 10 14 17 9 11 11
67866 Gioacchino Vizzaccaro, (b. 1895), Lazio, Italy Italy R-M73
Of course Rocca didn't recognize Dominic Paolino, even though it is easy easy...
There are also proven loans from Proto-Indo-Iranian and Iranic to Finno-Ugric to my knowledge. Anyway, I wrote, "there are indications that Proto-Indo-European and Proto-Uralic came into contact sometime in the past and more so for some of their branches after the diversification of the proto-languages," so I agree that it is more strongly demonstrated that Indo-Iranian and its branches loaned to FU than that Proto-Indo-European loaned to Uralic or FU. Indeed, Proto-IE and Proto-Uralic or FU may not have come into contact. If so, this will likely have some implications for the timing of Uralic expansions towards the west.
Indeed. Although we're sort of working with two moving targets
Yes, but we are on more solid ground with the IE movements thanks to the ancient DNA studies.
Of course all what I said about the fact that not only European R-M73 doesn't derive from the Asian one is demonstrated, but also that it is older and ancestral. In waiting that an European sample is submitted to YFull, this is already clear from the FTDNA Project: European samples are M73+ but M478-. I am waiting that also the smal's tree is updated.
Dear English Lady,
not only I think that all my theories are largely demonstrated and will be conformed from aDNA (so very likley you have to write your books again), but you could begin in correcting some mistake that there is in your useful spreadsheet of the aDNA:
Sample: #YF02873 (R-Z2110) ChrY position: 17017851 (+strand) Reads: 16 Position data: 16C Weight for C: 1.0 Probability of error: 0.0 (0<->1) Sample allele: C Reference (hg19) allele: C Known SNPs at this position: Y13872 (C->T) Reference sequence (100bp): ACTGGAGTCATGTTCGTTGCTTCCTAAGTGGGCCAGGGATGTTAGCACCT
C TCTTTCTCCACTTTGGCTGCATGATTGAATCATCTAGAAAGATTTTGCAA (17017800-17017901)
Sample: #YF02873 (R-Z2110) ChrY position: 28765730 (+strand) Reads: 5 Position data: 5C Weight for C: 1.0 Probability of error: 0.0 (0<->1) Sample allele: C Reference (hg19) allele: C Known SNPs at this position: F8126 • Y13866 (C->A) Reference sequence (100bp): GCATATATCCCTCCAGAGCTTTTCTCTGAACAAAGTACTTACGTGTGTGG
C AGAGTGTAGGGGCGTATCTCTTATTTTGTTAATTTAATTTTCATTGTGGG (28765679-28765780)
Sample: #YF02873 (R-Z2110) ChrY position: 13865280 (+strand) Reads: 11 Position data: 11C Weight for C: 1.0 Probability of error: 0.0 (0<->1) Sample allele: C Reference (hg19) allele: C Known SNPs at this position: Y13886 (C->G) Reference sequence (100bp): TGACTTGAATGGAATGGAATGGAAAGGAATGGAAAGGAATGGAATGGAGT
C GAATGGAATGGACTGCAGTGCAATGGACTCGAATGGAATGGAAACGAATG (13865229-13865330)
Sample ID HG 17017851 28765730
YF03139 R-Y14051 T C
YF03139 R-Y14051 G
Russia Sok River, Samara [I0124/SVP 44] M 5650-5555 BC R1b1a M343+, L278+, [P297 equivalent PF6513+], M478-, [M478 equivalent Y13872+, Y13866- (The presence of positive and negative markers in the M478 node can reflect an intermediate stage of its formation.)], M478-, M269-
U5a1d C146T, C152T, C195T, A247G, A249d, 290-291d, T489C, A769G, A825t, A1018G, A2758G, C2885T, T3552a, T3594C, G4104A, T4312C, A4715G, G7146A, C7196a, T7256C, A7521G, T8468C, A8577G, G8584A, T8655C, A9545G, C10400T, T10664C, A10688G, C10810T, C10915T, A11605t, A12217G, G13105A, A13263G, G13276A, T13506C, T13650C, T14318C, T14783C, G15043A, G15301A, A15487t, A16129G, T16187C, G16230A, T16278C, T16298C, C16311T, T16325C, C16327T, C16519T, A8577G, A11605t, A12217G, T16189C!
Haak 2015; Sergey Malyshev; Mathieson 2015
thus not Y13866 but Y13886.
Kind Regards, Gioiello/Rathna
MomOfZoha said...
@Kristiina:
"In the portrait, Genghis' beard and hair have a slight reddish tone. And maybe he was getting bald as many western men do."
My [Turkish] brother's beard is also spattered conspicuously with the brightest red though none of us have red hair for at least three generations (blondish hair during childhood is not uncommon, on the other hand, throughout the Middle East).
At one point I looked carefully at the facial hair of random Turkish guys some years ago, and I noticed that many dark haired guys (even black haired guys) do have reddish beards. It is an interesting phenomenon...
Of course, another thing to keep in mind is that both men and women in certain cultures (including Afghan and Pakistani ones) put henna in their hair. For a while I had thought that my paternal grandmother had reddish hair and greenish eyes -- henna and cataracts -- may she rest in peace...
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Virago Reading Week: It's a Wrap!
Although it's been snowing steadily, I've enjoyed a wonderfully green week as countless photos of beautiful Virago books have appeared in my reader. Obviously, Virago Reading Week is a huge success. Our tireless hostesses, Rachel and Carolyn, have compiled daily wrap-ups gathering links to our offerings: reviews, pictures, memories, contests, wishlists. My personal favorite, however, is this photo of Deacon the border collie. You must take a look... it made Zelda, our greyhound, more than a little nervous.
I managed to finish two Virago titles, Excellent Women by Barbara Pym (reviewed here) and The Optimist's Daughter by Eudora Welty. Sadly, neither was an actual Virago edition.
Also this week, I reminisced about a favorite Virago opening from The Enchanted April and learned (via The Writer's Almanac) that two Virago authors had birthdays this week. Their write-ups on the lives of Edith Wharton and Colette were too interesting not to share.
In other exciting news, our tickets to London have been purchased! Late next month, Mr. LM and I will be visiting our daughter who is studying abroad. There are so many things we want to see and do, but of course there will be time for book browsing. I would love the company of London-area bloggers. You can bet I'll return with one of two Viragos and Persephones!
Finally, a huge thank you to Rachel and Carolyn for a job well done! Many titles have been added to my wish list and a couple new blogs to my reader. There will be more of both, I'm sure, as I catch up on the daily wrap-up posts this afternoon.
Mildred Lathbury, clergyman's daughter, thirty-something spinster in 1950's England, and 'excellent woman' often taken for granted, finds herself in the middle of her new neighbors marital crisis, as well as a church upheaval.
"I suppose an unmarried woman just over thirty, who loves alone and has no apparent ties, must expect to find herself involved or interested in other people's business, and if she is also a clergyman's daughter then one might really say there is no hope for her."
Quartet in Autumn is my only previous experience with Pym, but I was again treated to a wonderfully English-feeling novel. The effects of the war are still visible - a badly bombed church is only half-usable, housing shortages remain and (hard for me to imagine from my 21st century comfort) total strangers are required to share bathrooms. Meat supply seems scarce and tea-drinking occurs every few pages.
Mildred is an extremely perceptive woman, and much of her life is based on appropriateness, capability, and manners. It's a rather quiet life caring for 'gentlewomen' in the morning, attending various church services, and taking part in nearly all day-to-day church activities. Life takes an interesting turn as Mildred becomes involved in the lives, and marital crisis, of her glamorous new neighbors, the Napiers. Helena is a beautiful anthropologist lacking domestic skills, while Rockingham, or 'Rocky', is a handsome, engaging officer recently returned from Italy. Through the Napiers, Mildred is also introduced to the unmarried Everard Bone, Helen's research partner.
Church life is shaken up when Allegra Gray, a stylish clergyman's widow, takes a room at the vicarage where (single) Father Julian Malory presides while being looked after by his sister Winifred (also an 'excellent' woman). Mildred's character unfolds as she interacts with all these people.
Although there are some very funny moments, the poignant episodes seemed to stand out, leaving me with a overall bittersweet feeling.
After turning the last page, I wanted nothing more than to begin another Barbara Pym novel.
Bottom line: A wonderfully perceptive English novel by an author I will be reading much more of... especially recommended to those who enjoy quiet, character-driven novels.
Virago Reading Week is hosted by Rachel and Carolyn.
Today marks the birth of another favorite Virago author - Colette. Last year, I enjoyed Cheri and The Last of Cheri, and plan to read more of her novels following the TBR Dare. Have you read Colette? Virago publishes one title, The Other Woman.
It is the birthday of the writer who said, "Be happy. It's one way of being wise." That's Colette, (books by this author) born in Saint-Sauveur-en-Puisaye, in the Burgundy Region of France (1873). She's the author of more than 70 books of fiction, memoir, and journalism, including the novel Gigi (1944), which has spawned a number of stage and film adaptations.
"What am I doing? Heavens, I'm spinning. And I use this verb as a planet would. Yes, I'm spinning.
I've seen roses, honeysuckle, forty degrees Centigrade of dazzling heat, moonlight, ancient wisteria enlacing the door of my old home in Saint-Sauveur.
I've seen the night over Fontainebleau. And as I said, I'm spinning.
Beside me there a is a dark boy at the wheel. I'm on my way back to Paris, but shall I stay there? The dark boy beside me is still at the wheel, and how strange everything is! And how good I am, and how amazed I am, and what wise improvidence in my behaviour! Oh yes, I'm spinning! As you can see, you must not worry about me.
From time to time I am uneasy about myself, and I give a start, prick up my ears, and cry out, But what are you doing? and then I refuse to think any more about it ... Just now, on the telephone, an enlightened Chiwawa, enlightened by the dark, dark, dark boy, sang my praises. The era of frankness is back and the cards are on the table.
But, my Marguerite, how strange it all is! ... I have the fleeting confidence of people who fall out of a clock tower and for a moment sail through the air in a comfortable fairy-world, feeling no pain anywhere ..."
Colette married three times, gave birth to a child at the age of 40 whom she left to be raised by an English nanny, had an affair in her 50s with her 16-year-old stepson, and was forever scandalizing her French contemporaries. But she was also highly respected, the winner of all sorts of prestigious international literary awards. And when she died at the age of 81, she was the first woman in France to be honored with an official state funeral.
She once said, "What a wonderful life I've had! I only wish I'd realized it sooner."
And, "Sit down and put down everything that comes into your head and then you're a writer. But an author is one who can judge his own stuff's worth, without pity, and destroy most of it."
And Colette wrote: "By means of an image we are often able to hold on to our lost belongings. But it is the desperateness of losing which picks the flowers of memory, binds the bouquet."
To Those Who Appreciate Wistaria and Sunshine.
April. Necessary servants remain. Z, Box 1000, The Times."
I don't know about you, but that ad would certainly catch my attention... especially during these cold, bleak winter days. The beautiful images evoked open a door to endless possibilities.
The Enchanted April by Elizabeth von Arnim is a wonderful book. Why not escape to Italy today? My complete review is here.
Today marks the beginning of Virago Reading Week hosted by Rachel and Carolyn. It is also Edith Wharton's birthday. Do you suppose this is purely coincidence? I think not, and give full credit to our gracious hostesses. This article from today's Writer's Almanac seemed the perfect way to start the week.
It's the birthday of the writer who said, "Life is always a tightrope or a feather bed. Give me the tightrope." That's Edith Wharton, (books by this author) born in New York City (1862). She wrote about frustrated love in novels like The House of Mirth (1905), Ethan Frome (1911), and The Age of Innocence (1920), for which she became the first woman to win the Pulitzer Prize.
She came from a rich and snobbish New York family who lived off the inheritance of their real estate and banking tycoon ancestors, and she spent several years of her early childhood traveling around Europe. When she was 10, her parents re-settled in New York, around 23rd and Park Avenue. She was a teenage bookworm, reading insatiably from her family's expansive library and feeling alienated and adrift in the New York high-society circles her family moved in. At 23, she married a family friend, a classy, good-looking sportsman named Edward "Teddy" Robbins Wharton, who wasn't particularly fond of books. He had a tendency for manic spells, extravagant spending sprees, and infidelity. It was a long and miserable marriage.
"Do you know what I was thinking last night, when you asked me, &; I couldn't tell you? — Only that the way you've spent your emotional life while I've ... hoarded mine, is what puts the great gulf between us, & sets us not only on opposite shores, but at hopelessly distant points of our respective shores. Do you see what I mean?
"And I'm so afraid that the treasures I long to unpack for you, that have come to me in magic ships from enchanted islands, are only, to you, the old familiar red calico & beads of the clever trader, who has had dealing with every latitude, & knows just what to carry in the hold to please the simple native — I'm so afraid of this, that often & often I stuff my shining treasures back into their box, lest I should see you smiling at them!
"Well! And what if you do? It's your loss, after all! And if you can't come into the room without my feeling all over me a ripple of flame, & if, wherever you touch me, a heart beats under your touch, & if, when you hold me, & I don't speak, it's because all the words in me seem to have become throbbing pulses, & all my thoughts are a great golden blur — why should I be afraid of your smiling at me, when I can turn the beads & calico back into such beauty —?"
He left her in 1911, and she stayed married to Teddy for a couple more years, though the two lived apart from each other during the last part of their 28-year marriage. She loved living in Paris, and there she mingled with people like André Gide, Jean Cocteau, Theodore Roosevelt, and F. Scott Fitzgerald, whom she once told: "To your generation, I must represent the literary equivalent of tufted furniture and gas chandeliers." But she wasn't prim or overly proper, and she famously enjoyed one of Fitzgerald's scandalous stories, about an American couple in a Paris brothel, which he drunkenly related the first time he met her.
Modernist writers were among her contemporaries, but she didn't use modernist techniques like stream-of-consciousness in her own writing, and she wasn't a fan of it in others'. She once said about James Joyce's Ulysses (1922), "Until the raw ingredients of a pudding make a pudding, I shall never believe that the raw material of sensation and thought can make a work of art without the cook's intervening."
She died in Paris at the age of 75. At the time of her death, she was working on a novel called The Buccaneers, about five rich American girls who set out to marry landed British men, so that they can have English feudal titles in their names, like "Duchess." In her last days, she lay in bed and worked on the novel, and each page that she completed she dropped onto the floor so that it could be collected later, when she was through.
Many of her novels have been made into movies. The House of Mirth, The Glimpses of the Moon, and The Age of Innocence were all adapted into silent films around the 1920s. John Madden directed a version of Ethan Frome in 1993, the same year Martin Scorsese directed a film adaptation of The Age of Innocence. In 2000, Gillian Anderson stared in The House of Mirth, directed by Terence Davies.
"You have hit upon the exact word; I was fond of him, yes, just as I was fond of my grandmother, and the house that I was born in, and my old nurse. Oh, I was fond of him, and we were counted a very happy couple. But I have sometimes thought that a woman's nature is like a great house full of rooms: there is the hall, through which everyone passes in going in and out; the drawing room, where one receives formal visits; the sitting-room, where the members of the family come and go as they list; but beyond that, far beyond, are other rooms, the handles of whose doors perhaps are never turned; no one knows the way to them, no one knows whither they lead; and in the innermost room, the holy of holies, the soul sits alone and waits for a footstep that never comes."
"And your husband," asked the Spirit, after a pause, "never got beyond the family sitting-room?"
"Never," she returned, impatiently; "and the worst of it was that he was quite content to remain there. He thought it perfectly beautiful, and sometimes, when he was admiring its commonplace furniture, insignificant as the chairs and tables of a hotel parlor, I felt like crying out to him: 'Fool, will you never guess that close at hand are rooms full of treasures and wonders, such as the eye of man hath not seen, rooms that no step has crossed, but that might be yours to live in, could you but find the handle of the door?'"
And Edith Wharton said, "There are two ways of spreading light: to be the candle or the mirror that receives it."
Good morning, and welcome to another Sunday Salon. It's a bitterly cold morning with temperatures hovering around zero, and forecast to stay here all day. There's a fire in the fireplace and coffee in my mug, and I'm ready to talk about books.
Speaking of the TBR Dare, I'm thinking of giving myself permission to acquire one new book for every two (or maybe three) read from my collection. I needed some extra motivation NOT to buy every Pym title in sight yesterday and this seemed to satisfy me. In addition to Pym, the next book to purchase may be The Weird Sisters by Eleanor Brown. Bloggers seem to love this, but Lynne's review convinced me that I NEED to read it. Amazon has also named it one January's best books.
There was a moment this week, however, when I was actually grateful for the TBR Dare. You know I love a good readalong, right? Well, Jill is at it again. This time it's Jousting with Joyce, a Ulysses readalong, and I have an easy, automatic excuse. Thank God there's not a copy on my shelf!
Finally... Virago Reading Week, hosted by Rachel and Carolyn, begins tomorrow! My review of Excellent Women will be posted during the week and today I will decide on another title to read. Carolyn has posted the complete list here. Possible choices for me include several books by Willa Cather, Elizabeth von Arnim's Elizabeth and Her German Garden, The Optimist's Daughter by Eudora Welty, and The Age of Innocence by Edith Wharton. We'll see which one strikes me this afternoon. Will you be reading Viragos this week, too? Which titles have you chosen?
The Literary Blog Hop takes place every other week at The Blue Bookcase.
It's been a long time since I've had to read a book for school, but The Red Badge of Courage by Stephen Crane immediately comes to mind as one I particularly despised. During high school, I was selected for a summer enrichment program at nearby university and Crane's book was assigned for the literature class.
War books have never really appealed to me and, I supposed it can be traced back to my experience with The Red Badge of Courage. The only thing I recall is the Civil War setting... no plot, characters, or themes.
More answers to this question can be found here.
Many of you know my daughter Margaret (previously known as Twin A) and I teamed up last spring to start Lakeside Kitchen, a cooking blog. Margaret loves to bake and we thought it would be fun to chronicle our culinary adventures. Things got quiet over the holidays (lots of baking, just not much blogging), but the kitchen is busy again.
Margaret did a Weekend Cooking post on the Happy Vegan Chocolate Chip Cookies she baked.
On Sunday, we decided to sign up for The Foodie Challenge: Whip Up Something New. The object of the challenge is to try a new recipe each month and blog about it. Trish and Joanna got things rolling, but hosting duties will rotate each month.
Yesterday's post featured the butternut squash soup I made in the crock-pot. Since this was a new recipe, I decided to use it for the Foodie Challenge.
"So you say that man cannot understand what's good and what's bad on his own, that it's all a matter of the environment, that he's a prey to the environment. But I think it's all a matter of chance. Here, I'll tell you about myself."
Those opening lines to Leo Tolstoy's short story "After the Ball" had me rolling my eyes and thinking I wasn't going to get very far with the story, but I was wrong. Ivan Vassilievich's description of a ball, the exquisitely beautiful woman he fell in love with, and her father, the colonel, drew me in immediately.
I did not look up until ten pages later when, at dawn after the ball, Ivan witnesses a brutal military act involving the colonel. He claims this chance incident changed the course of his life.
"So, do you think I decided then that what I had seen was a bad thing? Not a bit of it. 'If it was done with such assurance and was acknowledged by everyone as necessary, it means they know something that I don't know,' I thought and tried to find it out. And not having found it out, I could not enter military service, as I had wanted before, and not only did not serve in the military, but did not serve anywhere and, as you see, have been good for nothing."
Ivan's love for the beautiful girl also dwindled away, because thoughts of her invariably lead to recollections of the colonel. This story will cause you to stop and think.
Anna Karenina is my only previous experience with Tolstoy. I read it around the time Oprah selected it for her book club, and can remember sitting in the bookstore comparing two translations before finally choosing Pevear & Volokhonsky. Prior to that day, translation never really seemed important to me.
Pevear and Volokhonsky have now translated The Death of Ivan Ilyich & Other Stories. It was recently released in paperback by Vintage Classics, and I was lucky to receive the extra review copy sent to my daughter's college newspaper. It seems perfect for winter reading.
"After the Ball" can be read online, but in an older translation.
Another Sunday morning, and it's still snowing! We usually average 120" per winter, but the 100" mark is already a memory and expectations of a record-breaking season continue to mount. The weather cancelled quite a few activities this week (but not school), so there were a couple of unexpected evenings at home.
As a result, the TBR Dare is going well. I finished Major Pettigrew's Last Stand, and have been reading from two short story collections. However, that's just three books from my shelves, and fifteen have been added to my wish list in the meantime.
Today, I'll be choosing a new novel from my shelves. The top contenders are The Optimist's Daughter by Eudora Welty and Excellent Women by Barbara Pym. The other option is to continue with Pevear and Volokhonsky's new translation of Tolstoy's short stories ... which seems to fit best with the view from my window.
We are supposed to attend a birthday dinner for my sister later this afternoon, so hopefully the snow will let up. The driveway was plowed at 8:30 AM and now, just two hours later, it needs to be done again.
This novel is based on the life of Dr. Hanaoka Seishu (1760-1835), the Japanese doctor who performed the first operation under general anesthesia, but focuses primarily on the relationship between his wife and mother.
After a string of long books, I was craving one that could be read in just a couple of sittings. The Doctor's Wife had been on hold for months (thanks to Mel's review), and my library came through just before the TBR Dare got started - a rare case of perfect timing.
As a young girl, Kae is mesmerized by the beauty of Dr. Hanoka's wife, Otsugi. Years later she is overjoyed when Otsugi selects her to be the bride of their eldest son. Umpei is away studying medicine but Kae, it seems, possesses all the qualities necessary for a doctor's wife.
A marriage ceremony takes place without the groom. Three years will pass before husband and wife finally meet. During that time, a close and loving relationship develops between Kae and her mother-in-law.
When Umpei eventually comes home to take over his father's practice, Kae and Otsugi's relationship becomes fraught with jealousy and deteriorates quickly.
Umpei (also called Seishu) is intrigued with surgery, especially breast surgery. Common belief held that a woman's breasts were vital to life and pain associated with surgery would result in death. Umpei experiments with anesthesia on animals, and is eventually ready to try his new medicine on humans.
The novel gets very interesting as Kae and Otsugi vie to become the first human subjects, thus proving their greater love for Umpei. There is an especially hilarious dialog with each one-upping the other listing reasons why she should be chosen. Both women, however, are actually afraid the medicine will kill them.
I won't spoil things by telling you who gets to be the 'guinea pig' or the outcome of the clinical trials. It's certainly worth reading this short book to find out. The prose is simple and straight forward, at times even beautiful. The women's relationship takes center stage, but the book is also an interesting look at male-oriented family life and the 'business' of medicine in Japan in the early 1800's.
A short, enjoyable novel, that offers an interesting look at medicine and female relationships in a male-oriented Japanese family.
Hello, Short Story Monday.... meet the TBR Dare.
Nearly fifty bloggers have accepted C.B. James' dare to read only from our shelves until April 1. Since my shelves hold plenty of short stories, Short Story Monday posts will focus on collections and anthologies I've purchased over the last couple of years, as well as back issues of The New Yorker piled on my coffee table, for the entire first quarter of 2011.
"Oh, there is one, of course, but you'll never know it."
"I don't want to have to drive ten miles to see somebody else's ghost. I want one of my own on the premises. Is there a ghost at Lyng?"
"But if it's once been identified as an unearthly visitant, why hasn't its signalment been handed down in the family? How has it managed to preserve its incognito?... Suddenly, long afterward, one says to one's self 'That was it'?"
Alida can only offer the words, "One just has to wait."
"Oh, hang waiting!" Ned broke in. "Life's too short for a ghost who can only be enjoyed in retrospect. Can't we do better than that, Mary?"
The fun, and creepiness, comes with the unfolding story and discovery of the ghost... afterward. "Afterward" was less ambiguous and, ultimately, more satisfying than "The Lady's Maid's Bell" (reviewed here), also included in this eleven story collection. "Afterward" may also be read online.
The view from my window this Sunday morning reminds me of our holiday snow globe featuring the Times Square New Year's Eve Ball, just removed from the mantle yesterday and packed away with the rest of the Christmas decorations. Yes, the holidays are officially over, and we're heading into the heart of winter. I usually read more during these months and this year, thanks to the TBR Dare, all the books will come from my own shelves. So, let it snow!
This week I was in the mood for short stories and pulled down Tales from the Jazz Age by F. Scott Fitzgerald. My Short Story Monday post featured "The Jelly Bean". Later in the week, I turned to The Ghost Stories of Edith Wharton.
My current novel is Major Pettigrew's Last Stand by Helen Simonson. This charming, cozy book is perfect for a winter evening by the fire. My book club will discuss it later in the month.
In other news, Daughter #1 arrived safely in London for her semester abroad. There were, thankfully, no weather delays as she traveled from central New York, to JFK, to Heathrow. She settled into her South Kensington housing and began to explore the city. Formal orientation started today.
The Royal Wedding thwarted our original plan to visit in late April, so we're looking at February. We may arrive just in time to celebrate Claire and Verity's Persephone Reading Weekend with a trip to the Persephone Bookshop!
It may be a quiet day today - shoveling snow, soup or chili in the crock-pot, and Major Pettigrew's Last Stand. How will you spend this snowy Sunday?
The Group follows eight new Vassar graduates, friends from the class of 1933, as they make their way in the world.
First, a big thank you to Claire of Paperback Reader for bringing this book to my attention and convincing me to make an immediate purchase. Outstanding reviews by Nymeth and Kals motivated me to pitch the title to my book club, in hopes that I might get to read it even sooner.
While the characters in the novel are interesting, the glimpse into the lives of young women in the 1930's is even more remarkable. We are introduced to 'the group', fresh from graduation and ready to take on the world, at the wedding of one of its members.
The worst fate, they utterly agreed, would be to become like Mother and Dad, stuffy and frightened. Not one of them, if she could help it, was going to marry a broker or a banker or a coldfish corporation lawyer, like so many of mothers generation.
The Group is a fascinating piece of social history. My grandmother was older than these women, and my mother younger, so I never really heard stories from this decade. Some views expressed by the characters were surprising, while others made me laugh.
This hospital..was like an up-to-date factory: no baby was sent out until he was in good working order, tried and tested and guaranteed to run without friction for at least the first few months... And these new babies who ate and slept regularly, on a schedule, like little clocks... were going to grow up into a new kind of man, who perhaps (it did not do to be too optimistic) would no longer want to make wars and grab property. (page 308).
There are several plotlines involving each of the characters and, initially, I had trouble keeping them all straight. The novel reaches its conclusion nearly a decade later at another group gathering. It's all too obvious that life has taken it's toll on the idealism and enthusiasm of the women's earlier years.
The Group was one of my favorite books of 2010.
Ten of us met on a snowy morning in mid-December. The hostess's house was decorated for the holidays and we were all in a festive mood. Eight of us had even finished the book.
This was a particularly interesting novel to discuss with the book club. Although the majority of us are around 50, we range in age from 30's to 70. Most had not previously heard of The Group, but our older members remembered the scandal surrounding the book's publication. One member, who was in high school at the time, even covered the book with a brown paper bag so nobody would know what she was reading!
We laughed at the childbirth/hospital scenes, praised advances in birth control, were surprised at the amount of sexual activity (could our mothers or grandmothers really have behaved like this?), and marveled at the progress women in general have made since the 1930's. For many of us, these women are just a generation or two older. How far we have come!
The Group is much more than a well-written, engaging novel. It is a fascinating piece of social history.
Jim Powell was a Jelly-bean. Much as I desire to make him an appealing character, I feel it would be unscrupulous to deceive you on that point. He was a bred-in-the bone, dyed-in-the wool, ninety-nine three-quarters per cent Jelly-bean and he grew lazily all during Jelly-bean season, which is every season, down in the land of the Jelly-beans well below the Mason-Dixon line.
"Jelly-bean is the name throughout the undissolved Confederacy for one who spends his life conjugating the verb to idle in the first person singular - I am idling, I have idled, I will idle.
The first chapter introduces Jim Powell. He never liked parties much, was mostly scared of girls, and, at twenty-one, has returned from the war (he served in a navy-yard in Brooklyn) to live above Tilly's Garage, where he occasionally works. He also happens to be a champion crap-shooter.
The second chapter is written mostly in dialogue. An old friend invites Jim to a party at the country club. On impulse he accepts, but feels woefully out of place.
So ten o'clock found the Jelly-bean with his legs crossed and his arms conservatively folded, trying to look casually at home and politely uninterested in the dancers. At heart he was torn between overwhelming self-consciousness and an intense curiosity as to all that went on around him.
At the party, Jim is dazzled by the popular Nancy Lamar, also reputed to be a fine crap-shooter, but one who often gets into trouble after too much "good old corn". Remember, this is during prohibition.
An after hours crap shoot follows the dance. Jim watches as Nancy has an amazing winning streak, however her luck turns as the alcohol flows. He steps in to "save" her, and is rewarded. As morning breaks, Fitzgerald writes poetically of Jim's change in attitude, his desire to better himself, and finally, a realization.
In this heat nothing mattered. All life was weather, a waiting through the hot where events had no significance for the cool that was soft and caressing like a woman's hand on a tired forehead.
This story originally appeared in The Metropolitan periodical, and was included in Fitzgerald's Tales of the Jazz Age in 1922. This is a wonderful story, and I look forward to reading more from the collection. You can read "The Jelly-Bean" here.
"Queen JoAnn" embroidered on pajamas...quite a gift!
Syracuse football wins a bowl game!
Yes, it's time to go back to Weight Watchers.
You know what that means... resolutions galore. In the interest of keeping the new year stress-free (an expression that's getting a lot of use around here lately), I have made only a few resolutions and set very modest goals.
1. Read the books I already own.
My shelves are full of so many wonderful books just waiting to be read, yet in 2010, only seven books came from my collection. To help with this resolution, I've signed up for C.B. James' TBR Dare. It concludes in April, but I'd love to last even longer.
2. Top priority goes to book club selections.
3. Keep commitments to a bare minimum.
No challenges, blog tours, or scheduled posting dates for now. I do enjoy read-alongs though, and plan to join in as time allows.
4. Remember that numbers don't matter.
Although I would love to read a book per week, that hasn't happened in several years. I love long books and will not shy away from them in 2011. One quarter of the books I read in 2010 were over 500 pages, and that may be even higher this year.
5. Get back into the short story habit.
Short Story Monday posts seem to have fallen by the wayside over the past six months. I love short stories and am not quite sure how this happened, but it's time to return to the routine.
I'd like to read one third nonfiction, but I've been stuck at 20 to 25 percent for the last few years.
I could easily add a few more, but six seems like a manageable number. Have you made reading resolutions for 2011?


text:
L. Tieck's Universaldramen: Traditional narratives as the basis for genre experiments
PONTE. 2019. Vol. 75. No. 3. P. 66-72.
Zotova T.
The article analyses how L.Tieck understood the phenomena of the traditional narratives. The article discusses the views Tieck had upon the chapbook, and its adaptations in his works, particularly the drama based upon popular material. Three of his dramatic works of that type, «Life and death of the St. Genivieve» (1800), «Emperor Octavian» (1808) and «Fortunatus» (1815), especially the first one, initiated new genres of German Romantic drama called Universaldrama (drama of the universe), which are typologically close to mystery play. Tieck's literary program combined both the rejection of contemporary mass literature and the productive replacement of it with examples of new Romantic art. The contradiction between reality and fiction, which is accentuated in Tieck's comedies, weakens in his Universaldramen. The main theme of his plays is the interpretation of religion as a way to comprehend the world. The poet creates a kind of genre complex, where the drama of historical process is ironically removed. This is the basic principle of his two first big plays – "Life and death of the St. Genivieve" and "Emperor Octavian". His last play, "Fortunatus" is, however, rather a generalizing "ironic construct" which combines elements of several traditional genres and, at the same time, is a parody of the genre he created.
Research target: Philology and Linguistics
Keywords: German romanticismhistory of dramaLudwig Tieck
Разрушение театральной иллюзии в комедии Л. Тика "Кот в сапогах".
Зотова Т. А. В кн.: XXXIX Международная филологическая конференция. История зарубежных литератур. СПб.: ИД "Петрополис", 2011. С. 51-54.
Drama Innovations in Nikolai Erdman's The Warrant and The Suicide
Kovalova A. Russian Review. 2014. Vol. 73. No. 2. P. 261-280.
For many years the playwright Nikolai Erdman and his remarkable impact on Russian theater and drama have been almost forgotten. In the 1990s, however, his drama began attracting critics' attention. Now, as a result, Erdman is viewed as one of the prominent Russian playwrights of the first half of the twentieth century. Although recently Erdman became an important object of research, the innovations of his drama have never been analyzed as specific phenomena. This article is focused on poetics of two main Erdman's plays: "The Warrant" and "The Suicide." By analyzing the time and space, as well as the plot, dialogue, and characters, the main innovatory elements of these plays are analyzed. According to this analysis, Erdman's dialogue appears to be the playwright's most significant discovery which impacted not only his own drama but the whole Russian theater of the twentieth century as well.
Концептуализация политической символизации
Мусихин Г. И. Полис. Политические исследования. 2015. № 5. С. 130-144.
The article introduces new perspective on political symbolization as a state of political reality. Availability of symbolic influence in political context implies common knowledge; nevertheless, it does not reflect predetermined reaction to following information. Therefore, we have to discern between semantics (meaning of the language) and sense of the conversations (meaning of the speech itself). The article draws substance of political symbolization from the theory of the symbol, introduced by German romantics, who highly valued symbols as a matter of human aesthetics. Author exposes the contradiction between the use of the symbol's "privileged status" in the dimension of aesthetics and neglect of its very essence within social sciences. Political symbolization is conceptualized in terms of multiplicity of unstated meanings in communication within political context. These findings of the article have the significant implication: political symbolization is a rare and unpredictable phenomenon; it becomes "visible" as if it has been happening in the reality, but still in collective perception due to dispositions of interpreters political symbolization is presented more essential than the viscera of life.
Teatro y literatura dramática del exilio republicano español de 1939 en Europa
Edited by: M. Martín Gijón. Seville: Renacimiento, 2015.
The book offers history of dramatic writing of the Spanish Republican exile of 1939 in Europe. This data is completed by information on its staging permormed in European theaters, Russian theaters among them.
Nothing Absolute: German Idealism and the Question of Political Theology
NY: Fordham University Press, 2021.
Featuring scholars at the forefront of contemporary political theology and the study of German Idealism, Nothing Absolute explores the intersection of these two flourishing fields. Against traditional approaches that view German Idealism as a secularizing movement, this volume revisits it as the first fundamentally philosophical articulation of the political-theological problematic in the aftermath of the Enlightenment and the advent of secularity. Nothing Absolute reclaims German Idealism as a political-theological trajectory. Across the volume's contributions, German thought from Kant to Marx emerges as crucial for the genealogy of political theology and for the ongoing reassessment of modernity and the secular. By investigating anew such concepts as immanence, utopia, sovereignty, theodicy, the Earth, and the world, as well as the concept of political theology itself, this volume not only rethinks German Idealism and its aftermath from a political-theological perspective but also demonstrates what can be done with (or against) German Idealism using the conceptual resources of political theology today.
Отечественная война 1812 года в творчестве поэта Э. М. Арндта: немецкий национализм и русский патриотизм.
Лагутина И. Н. В кн.: 1812 год и мировая литература. М.: ИМЛИ РАН, 2013. С. 449-462.
Мифология как дисциплина на рубеже XVIII-XIX вв.: предпосылки и основания становления
Шалаева А. В. SocioTime (Социальное время). 2015. № 1. С. 128-139.
This paper seeks to establish German Romanticism preconditions as the foundation of the humanities as a discipline. The research enquires into the ideas that were crucial for the formation of mythology as a discipline. The research explores the role of the Philhellenistic movement, Classicism and Enlightenment of the late 18th century in the formation of science of myth and symbol. The findings of the research illustrate the impact of the different positions in the debates surrounding mythology in the conceptual bases that formed German Romanticism and German Idealism. As Creuzer, one of the most discussed mythologists of the early 19th century, was studying the symbolism and mythology of the ancients, he was acutely influenced by the late 18th century's ideas. We suggest that this fact is crucial for the interpretation of the history of mythology as a subject and as a discipline.
"Молодая редакция" журнала "Москвитянин": Эстетика. Поэтика. Полемика
Зубков К. Ю. М.: Биосфера, 2012.
Развитие современного информационного пространства: анализ и перспективы
Дзялошинский И. М., Пильгун М. А., Тощева А. В. и др. Вып. 11. М.: АПК и ППРО, 2012.
Технологии работы с текстовой и фактографической информацией. Словарь-справочник
Шаров А. Г. МегаВерсия, 2007
Эффективные стратегии и тактики в современных коммуникационных процессах
Boris Pasternak: Russian Writer in Italy
Galatenko Y. N. Academic Journal of Interdisciplinary Studies. 2013. Vol. 2. No. 9. P. 304-309.
The paper is focused on the study of reaction of italian literature critics on the publication of the Boris Pasternak's novel "Doctor Jivago". The analysys of the book ""Doctor Jivago", Pasternak, 1958, Italy" (published in Russian language in "Reka vremen", 2012, in Moscow) is given. The papers of italian writers, critics and historians of literature, who reacted immediately upon the publication of the novel (A. Moravia, I. Calvino, F.Fortini, C. Cassola, C. Salinari ecc.) are studied and analised.
Автоматическая генерация правил транскрипции и машинная транскрипция имен собственных с использованием конечного автомата
Логачева В. К., Клышинский Э. С., Галактионов В. А. ИПМ им. М.В. Келдыша РАН. ::. ИПМ им. М.В. Келдыша РАН, 2012. № 14.
Эмоциональные высказывания в диалогической и монологической речи
Яблокова Т. Н. Филологические науки. Вопросы теории и практики. 2011. № 2. С. 191-196.
In the article the patterns of the realization of emotional utterances in dialogic and monologic speech are described. The author pays special attention to the characteristic features of the speech of a speaker feeling psychic tension and to the compositional-pragmatic peculiarities of dialogic and monologic text.
Описание графика как способ профессионально направленного обучения иностранному языку в нелингвистическом вузе
Успенская Е. А., Шмаль М. В. Альманах современной науки и образования. 2011. № 3(46). С. 171-181.
Культурно-историческая психология Выготского − Лурия
Фрумкина Р.М. Гуманитарные исследования. WP6. Высшая школа экономики, 2006. № 01.
After more then 70 years since his death and nevertheless the crucial changes psychology has undergone meanwhile, L.S.Vygotsky is still considered a major and highly influencual figure. In what follows the author tries to understand the means and ways of he reception of Vygotsky's heritage and the major role L.R.Luria performed in the process in question.

redpajama_set_name: RedPajamaCommonCrawl