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Swim with the world's largest fish in Mexico
A Baja Airventures guest enjoying a morning swim with a juvenile whale shark near Las Animas Wilderness Lodge, Sea of Cortez, Baja California, Mexico ... A Baja Airventures guest enjoying a morning swim with a juvenile whale shark near Las Animas Wilderness Lodge, Sea of Cortez, Baja California, Mexico in this October 2009 photo provided by Baja Airventures Inc.
A view of the Las Animas Wilderness Lodge on the Sea of Cortez in Baja California, Mexico is shown in this October 2009 photo. A view of the Las Animas Wilderness Lodge on the Sea of Cortez in Baja California, Mexico is shown in this October 2009 photo.
A cliff top yurt at the Las Animas Wilderness Lodge on the Sea of Cortez in Baja California, Mexico is shown in this undated photo provided by Baja Ai... A cliff top yurt at the Las Animas Wilderness Lodge on the Sea of Cortez in Baja California, Mexico is shown in this undated photo provided by Baja Airventures Inc.
A mangrove estuary not far from the Las Animas Wilderness Lodge south of Bahia de los Angeles in Baja California, Mexico is shown in this October 2009... A mangrove estuary not far from the Las Animas Wilderness Lodge south of Bahia de los Angeles in Baja California, Mexico is shown in this October 2009 photo.
Everyone got excited when the 20-foot-shark, inches below the surface of the water, started circling slowly under our little fiberglass boat and wouldn't leave.
What to do? Get in the water, of course.
"This is special," said our guide, Christina Colpitts, as three passengers from our boat eased into the tepid Sea of Cortez and swam carefully toward the creature to get a snorkel-eye view.
Anyone who saw a "Sharks of the World" poster as a youngster surely felt the mystique of the whale shark, largest shark in the world and biggest fish in the sea. Lurking behind the other shark species - bigger, even, than the mighty great white - the enormous size and peculiar spots of the whale shark stood out.
Very definitely the whale shark was coolest of all sharks.
The Sea of Cortez, a three-hour flight south of San Diego, is one of the few places in the world where whale sharks congregate predictably. They start showing up in summer, with peak season for whale shark-watching from the start of September through the end of October. My trip was run by a small San Diego-based company called Baja Airventures.
"We've had a lot of people who've gone on our trips and they've been down to Australia, they've been off of Belize and they've been all over the place and had yet to be able to snorkel with whale sharks," said Baja Airventures owner Kevin Warren. "Our last five years in a row, every one of our trips we saw them throughout the trip."
Baja Airventures flies its guests in single-engine planes to the remote Mexican fishing village of Bahia de los Angeles, population 500. From there, basic but powerful and seaworthy 26-foot boats shuttle guests another hour south to the rustic Las Animas Wilderness Lodge on a turquoise cove.
The Baja Airventures pilots also serve as knowledgeable guides, leading guests in small groups to kayak, fish, hike and snorkel with whale sharks and the other abundant sea life in the area.
Just be ready to rough it. You must enjoy sleeping in little more than a tent and doing without electricity and running water - not to mention no television, Internet or cell phone service.
"I want to be completely self-sustaining out there," said Warren, adding that he would like to install a desalination unit to supply water and intends to replace the resort's only generator with solar panels.
Whale sharks grow up to 40 feet but have very small teeth and aren't predatory. That means they won't try to eat you. Gentle giants, they gather each fall at Bahia de Los Angeles - almost halfway down the Baja Peninsula on the Sea of Cortez - to filter-feed on microscopic organisms called plankton.
The sharks swim slowly near the surface, keeping their large mouths open to gorge on the clouds of plankton that color the water jade that time of year.
"Absolutely mysterious and absolutely still very rare," said Jason Holmberg with the Ecocean Whale Shark Photo ID Laboratory. "The more we discover about them, the more our preconceptions about them, even from a few years ago, are shattered."
The Portland, Ore.-based nonprofit is deciphering the migration patterns of whale sharks. To do that, the group collects and catalogs underwater photographs of whale sharks taken by divers and snorkelers.
Holmberg employs sophisticated software to examine the light-colored spots unique to each shark. He then looks for matches among the more than 10,000 photos in his database. When he finds a match, he notes where that shark has been photographed before.
"Tourism definitely helps with the conservation, because it's only through large-scale data collection that we can get a picture of the species," Holmberg said.
The Mexican government also seems concerned about whale sharks, marking off with buoys the part of Bahia de los Angeles where whale sharks congregate and enforcing rules for interacting with the animals. Chasing or herding sharks isn't allowed. No more than three people per boat may be in the water at any time. Touching sharks is prohibited.
Whale sharks have recently been in the news because of the Deepwater Horizon oil spill, with some seen swimming near and through the oil in the Gulf of Mexico. But the Sea of Cortez population is off the west coast of Mexico, while the Gulf waters are on the other side, well east of Mexico.
Those who make the trip with Baja Airventures must be willing to rough it a bit. Accommodations are in spacious yurts - a type of large, round tent with a conical top, traditional housing of Mongolian nomads. Baja Airventures has eight beachside yurts for lodging plus a larger, central yurt for dining and entertainment at its Las Animas Wilderness Lodge.
The yurts have no electricity. And there's no running water - guests carry water for their showers in 5-gallon bags and set them in the sun to warm up. There are composting toilets.
The single-engine Piper Cherokee planes Baja Airventures operates are comfortable and smooth-flying but small, able to carry no more than six passengers plus the pilot. For an entire week, guests are limited to no more than 15 pounds of tightly packed clothes, toiletries, camera gear and anything else they think they might need.
In other words, don't expect to dress to impress.
"We strive to make it more like a trip you would make with friends and family," said Warren, who began flying to Baja to explore surfing opportunities on the peninsula's west coast and has been in business 20 years.
While the accommodations are primitive, the food at the lodge is not. Two outstanding cooks prepare authentic Mexican meals, often using fresh fish caught right offshore. And the camp's remoteness doesn't impede its ample supply of Mexican beer - which always tastes better in Mexico - and Colpitts makes a mean margarita.
Best of all, though, is the scenery and wildlife. The desert landscape roughened by volcanic rock and 30-foot cardon cactus tumbles unimpeded into the ocean from nearby mountaintops. Cliffs that seem about to crumble into the water at any moment host crowds of pelicans and boobys while osprey and frigate birds circle above.
And there is nothing like the experience of floating still next to a creature many times your size, hearing the soft swish of water and wondering what this mellow fish might be thinking with its beady eye watching you.
Baja Airventures: http://www.bajaairventures.com/ or 800-221-9283. Packages start at $1,595 for four days, including all lodging, meals, drinks and frequent excursions to see whale sharks and other adventures. Whale sharks can be seen throughout the summer but peak season is beginning of September through end of October. Baja Airventures offers whale-dolphin and sea-lion watching tours in February and March.
Getting there: Baja Airventures trips depart from Brown Field, a small airport in San Diego right across from the Tijuana border. The planes refuel at San Felipe, Mexico, about halfway to Bahia de Los Angeles. Pack lightly: The company requires guests to sign an agreement to honor its 25-pound luggage limit.
Bahia de Los Angeles: http://www.bahiadelosangeles.info/
WHALE SHARK TRACKING: http://www.whaleshark.org/


We are pleased to offer you the position of Chief Strategy Officer and Chief Technology Officer for Harman International Industries, Inc. (the "Company"), effective as of October 1, 2006, on the terms set forth below. This letter agreement ("Agreement") will, when signed by you, amend and restate in its entirety your existing employment agreement dated July 1, 2003, as amended by letter agreement dated August 6, 2004.
(a) General. As Chief Strategy Officer and Chief Technology Officer, you will be be responsible for global technological direction. As a member of the Company's top management team you will provide strategic counsel to the other members of the top management team, and will provide leadership and guidance to the Company's worldwide technology organization to assure the Company's technical and strategic leadership across all business units.
• Developing and implementing a strategic roadmap for the management, protection and commercialization of the Company's intellectual property.
(c) Additional Responsibilities. You will place your full working capacity at the disposal of the Company. The Company reserves the right to assign additional areas of responsibility to you. At the request of the Company, within the framework of this Agreement and your areas of responsibility, you will also provide services for other subsidiaries of the Company. You will have no direct or indirect operating responsibility or authority for any unit of the Company, notwithstanding any title or office to which you may be appointed, except for those units specifically assigned to you for such purpose by the Company, to the responsibility or authority for which you have agreed.
(d) Compliance with Company Policies. You will be expected to comply fully with all policies of the Company applicable to you as an executive officer of the Company, including those concerning Conflicts of Interest and Securities Law Compliance.
(e) Reporting Relationships. You will be accountable to the Executive Chairman and to the Vice Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of the Company for all phases of your activities, or to such other person as may be designated by the Company. Reporting to you, directly or indirectly, will be all Group/Division R&D and/or Technology executives. You will advise, consult and coordinate your work with executive officers of the Company, and with the Group and Division presidents.
(f) Outside Activities. You will refrain from engaging in any other profit-making activity or any other activity that might impair your ability to place your full working capacity at the disposal of the Company, and shall refrain from participating in any other enterprise, irrespective of the legal form of such enterprise or the nature of its business. Inactive participation solely as a matter of private investment management is, however, permitted. Service as an officer, director or member of a supervisory body of any other company requires the prior written consent of the Company.
(g) Business Expenses. The Company will reimburse you for your ordinary and necessary expenses incurred while engaged on Company business, subject to documentation and approval in accordance with the Company's travel policy.
2. Salary. Your salary through August 31, 2007 will be at an annualized rate of US$1,000,000 (One million U.S. Dollars), payable in equal semi-monthly installments of US$41,666.67 (Forty-one thousand six hundred sixty-six and 67/100ths U.S. Dollars) on the 15th and the last days of each month, less deductions as required by law or authorized by you.
(a) Automobile. For the duration of your service under this Agreement you will be entitled to the use of a company car during trips to Europe with the latest technology then being tested by Harman Becker Automotive Systems GmbH, which automobile shall be provided to you for testing purposes and may also be used for private purposes. The Company will bear all costs associated with the maintenance and use of this vehicle, including any repairs. You will assign to the Company any claim against a third party responsible for such repairs. Your salary set out in paragraph 2 above includes monthly amounts withheld by the Company for taxes by reason of the tax benefit to you from the use of such automobile. Since you have your own private car in the U.S., no Company automobile will be provided for your use in the United States.
(b) Bonus. In addition to your salary you will be eligible for an annual bonus, based on certain performance parameters and in accordance with the Harman International Industries, Inc. Management Incentive Compensation Plan, as decided each year in the sole discretion of the Company. At full realization of all performance parameters, the bonus is targeted at 100% of your then base salary as provided in paragraph 2 above. You and the Company acknowledge that this annual gross salary already reflects the parties' mutual risk in the event the Company releases you from your obligation to work, and you will therefore have no right to claim any bonus or pro-rata bonus should the Company (with or without terminating this Agreement) release you from your obligation to work. It is understood and agreed that any bonus payment by the Company shall be voluntary one-time remuneration, and will not give rise to any future obligations on the part of the Company.
An additional $250,000 bonus will be paid to you on January 31, 2007 in consideration of your assistance in the management transition at Harman Becker Automotive Systems..
(c) Deferred Compensation Plan. You are eligible to participate in the Harman International Industries, Inc. Executive Deferred Compensation Plan, in accordance with its terms.
(d) Vacation. You will receive forty-two (42) annual vacation days. The date(s) of vacation as well as the respective vacation period(s) shall be determined by the Executive Chairman and the Vice Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of the Company.
(e) Disability. In the event of your disability due to illness not caused by negligence, or during a medical treatment prescribed by a doctor, or in the event of any other disability as a result of circumstances beyond your control, you will retain your entitlement to fixed salary as provided in paragraph 1 above for a period of six months following the onset of such disability. Thereafter, you will be entitled to receive the difference between the amount of any disability benefit paid by any health insurance company and 75% of your net fixed salary as provided in paragraph 2 above as a gross subsidy for a maximum period of six additional months. In the event you have claims against any third party responsible in whole or in part for such disability, you agree to assign such claims, up to the amount of the continuing salary payments, to the Company, and to make available to the Company all information, documents and other material necessary to permit the assertion of such claims against any such third party.
(f) Capital-Sum Life Insurance. The capital-sum life insurance policy in effect under your former employment agreement with Harman Becker Automotive Systems GmbH will be maintained in effect on the same basis as at present as provided in the Becker Employment Agreement (as defined below), and the Company will add to amounts withheld from your salary for your taxes an additional amount per month equal to the amount of tax you would otherwise owe by reason of receiving the benefit to you of the maintenance of such insurance.
(i) You are entitled to an annual gross pension payment ("Annual Pension") equal to the difference between (a) the sum of what you are entitled to receive under Sections 9(3) and 9(4) of the Managing Director Employment Agreement dated March 28, 2000 between you and Harman Becker Automotive Systems GmbH, as amended (the "Becker Employment Agreement"), a copy of which is attached as Exhibit 1 hereto, and (b) thirty percent (30%) of your Eligible Salary from all Harman companies; provided, however, that, upon your mutual execution with the Company on or before August 31, 2007 of either (x) a three-year exclusive consulting agreement or (y) a three-year non-compete agreement, the three year period in either instance commencing upon termination of your employment with the Company, you shall become entitled to an Annual Pension equal to the greater of (A) Nine hundred eight-eight thousand seven hundred fifty-five U.S. Dollars ($988,755.00), or (B) a pension benefit calculated as set forth above except that the percentage set forth in (b) above shall change from thirty percent (30%) to fifty percent (50%).
(ii) If you cease to be employed by the Company before attaining age 60, and if the Company has not terminated your employment for cause, the pension entitlements to which you were entitled at the time of termination shall be deemed to have vested.
(iii) For purposes of this subsection 3(g), "Eligible Salary" shall mean the average of your annual base salary in accordance with paragraph 2 above, plus the average of your Management Incentive Compensation plan bonus (only – no other bonuses or compensation of any nature will be included) as earned (A) during the term of this Agreement, or (B) during the last five years of service under this Agreement if you have completed five years of service or more under this Agreement. Eligible Salary shall not include any other kind of payments, benefits, bonus or other compensation made or granted to you.
(iv) The pension benefits payable hereunder shall be paid in twelve (12) equal monthly installments, commencing no sooner than September 1, 2008 and after, but not before, the three-year exclusive consulting agreement or the three-year non-competition agreement referred to in the first proviso of subsection (g)(i) above is signed by both you and the Company.
(v) In the event of your death while employed by the Company, your widow if then living, or if not as an alternative your legitimate offspring in equal parts, will receive an amount equal to three hundred percent (300%) of your Eligible Salary. In the event of your death after termination of your employment by the Company and prior to receiving 120 monthly benefit payments, such payments will continue to your widow if then living, or if not as an alternative your legitimate offspring in equal parts, until an aggregate of 120 payments have been made.
(h) Death Benefit. In the event of your death your widow if then living, or if not as an alternative your legitimate offspring in equal parts, will receive an amount equal to your monthly salary per paragraph 2 above for the month in which your death occurred, and for the three months following. If in the event of accidental death your widow or your heirs are entitled to insurance benefits per subparagraph 3(i) below, they shall be obligated to repay such sums to the Company up to the amount of the salary payments made pursuant to this subparagraph 3(h).
Said insurance policy will be maintained by the Company for its own benefit. Any benefit received as a result of an insurance contingency under such policy shall be paid to you, or in the event of your death to your widow if living, otherwise to your legitimate offspring in equal parts, or to such other beneficiaries as you appropriately designated to the company in writing. Any such payment shall be deducted from the Company's payment obligations under paragraphs 2 and 3(b) above.
(j) Annual Performance Review. You will receive a formal review of your performance at least annually, which generally will occur on or around the time that executive officer salaries are adjusted.
(a) You shall maintain in absolute confidence as to third parties, and refrain from any use except for the Company's benefit, any and all information, matters and relationships pertaining to the Company and its subsidiaries that has not been generally disclosed publicly, especially any and all matters pertaining to business and other trade secrets, subject to any disclosure that is required by law, and then only after notifying the Company thereof and providing it with an opportunity to contest such disclosure. These obligations of confidentiality and limited use shall survive the termination of this Agreement.
(b) You will also, at any time upon request of the Company, and without a request to do so upon termination of this Agreement, return all property of the Company and/or its subsidiaries, including without limitation records of business and trade matters regarding the Company and/or its subsidiaries, regardless of whether you or some other person produced such documents, along with your written certification that all relevant documents have been returned and that no copies are in your possession.
(a) All ideas, designs, circuits, schematics, formulas, algorithms, computer programs, trade secrets, works of authorship, mask works, inventions, discoveries, developments, improvements, copyrightable materials, processes, techniques, and related know-how which result from work you perform, alone or with others, on behalf of the Company or any of its subsidiaries, or from access to confidential information or property, whether or not patentable, copyrightable, or qualified for mask work protection (collectively "Inventions") shall be the property of the Company and, to the extent permitted by law, shall be "works made for hire." You assign and agree to assign to the Company or its designee, without further consideration, your entire right, title, and interest in and to all Inventions, including all rights to obtain, register, perfect, and enforce patents, copyrights, mask work rights, and other intellectual property protection for Inventions in the United States and foreign countries; provided, however, that to the extent compensation for such Inventions is governed by German law, the provisions of Article 12 of the Becker Employment Agreement (as defined below) shall apply.
(b) During your employment and thereafter you will, upon the Company's request, provide the Company (at its expense) with all reasonable assistance in obtaining and enforcing patents, copyrights, mask work rights, and other forms of intellectual property protection in Inventions in any and all countries. When requested by the Company, you will execute all lawful documents and perform all other lawful acts which the Company may reasonably deem necessary to carry out the purposes of this Agreement.
(a) This Agreement comes into effect on October 1, 2006.
(b) The contractual relationship is established for a fixed term of twenty-three (23) months, and except as described in subsections (c) and (d) immediately below may not be terminated by either party without cause prior to the expiration thereof. The date of termination of this Agreement is therefore August 31, 2008.
(c) You may terminate this Agreement at any time six months after the effective date upon which there occurs a Change of Control, as defined in the Company's 2002 Key Executive Officers Incentive Plan, as amended.
(d) You may terminate this Agreement upon written notice at any time after August 31, 2007 if at the time of such notice the increase in your Annual Pension benefit described in the first proviso of subsection 3(g)(i) above has not become effective.
(e) You or the Company may modify this Agreement only by mutual written agreement.
(f) Either party may, however, terminate this Agreement for material breach by the other of its terms.
(g) Any notice of termination must be in writing to be effective.
(h) Following any early termination of this Agreement by either party the Company may immediately release you from your obligation to work for the Company.
(i) Pursuant to subparagraph 1(f) above, you agree to refrain from any other activity until termination of this Agreement is fully effective, regardless of whether the Company has released you from your obligation to work for the Company.
(a) Prior Agreements Superseded. This Agreement supersedes all other employment and similar agreements, including agreements relating to pensions or other benefits, that you have or heretofore have had with Harman International Industries, Inc. and/or any of its subsidiaries and affiliates, including without limitation the Becker Employment Agreement, the January 2, 2001 Employment Agreement with Harman International Industries, Inc., as amended (the "2001 HIII Employment Agreement"), except the following agreements (only) which shall remain in effect: deferred compensation agreements ("Pensionszusage gegen Gehaltsverzicht") dated December 16, 1996 (DM300,000), June 27, 1997 (DM200,000), June 27, 1997 (DM400,000), June 23, 1998 (DM808,000), July 1, 1999 (DM600,000, DM750,000 and DM618,800, a total of DM1,968,800) and August 31, 2000 (DM31,200); the Restricted Stock Agreement effective as of August 15, 2005; and stock option agreements under the Company's 1992 Incentive Plan and 2002 Stock Option and Incentive Plan. Termination and payment of salary, pension and other benefits under the Becker Employment Agreement are addressed in a separate letter agreement dated July 1, 2003, a copy of which letter agreement is attached hereto as Exhibit 2.
(b) Arbitration. Any dispute concerning your employment or its termination shall be resolved by final and binding arbitration before a neutral arbitrator. The arbitrator shall be selected by mutual agreement or in accordance with the procedures of the American Arbitration Association. Arbitration shall take place in Detroit, Michigan unless you and the Company otherwise agree in writing.
(c) Notice. Any notice required or permitted under this Agreement shall be made in writing and sent by personal delivery, overnight courier, facsimile or first class mail addressed as follows: if to Company to Harman International Industries, Inc., Suite 1010, 1101 Pennsylvania Ave., N.W., Washington, D.C. 20004, Attention: Executive Chairman; if to you, to Dr. Erich A. Geiger, 8323 Ocotillo Court, Naples, FL 34113. Notice personally delivered or sent via overnight courier or facsimile shall be effective upon receipt; notice given by mail shall be effective three business days after deposit in the U.S. mail, postage prepaid.
(c) Choice of Law. This Agreement shall be governed by and construed in accordance with the laws of the State of Michigan, U.S.A. without regard to its rules pertaining to conflict of laws.
(d) Assignment; Complete Agreement. This Agreement, and any rights, duties and obligations hereunder, shall not be assignable, in whole or in part, by either party hereto without the express written consent of the other party, and any purported assignment hereof or thereof absent such consent shall be void. This Agreement constitutes the entire agreement between the parties relating to the subject matter hereof, all prior representations and agreements being merged herein and superseded hereby.
(e) Amendments Must be Written. No modification, amendment or waiver of any of the terms hereof shall be effective unless made in writing and executed by the party to be charged.
(f) Invalidity. If any portion of this Agreement is deemed by a court of competent jurisdiction to be invalid or unenforceable then such portion shall be deemed stricken from this Agreement and the remaining terms shall continue in full force and effect. The parties shall replace any provision so invalidated with a permissible and valid provision which comes closest in economic and legal content to the invalid provision.
Please acknowledge your understanding of and agreement to the foregoing terms by signing one copy of this letter in the space provided below and returning that signed copy to me.


Are you looking for an opportunity to make some extra money, start your own home-based business or create a brighter future for you and your loved ones? Interested in improving your lifestyle and helping other people?
At Stemtech, we do not sell our products in stores. Instead, we pay Independent Business Partners —people just like you— to help share our products and income opportunity with others. Our global Business Partner team includes people from all walks of life —students, doctors, retirees and stay-at-home parents alike enjoy the benefits of the Stemtech opportunity.
We provide our Business Partners with the opportunity to earn residual income and the chance to create a future with more choices, more freedom and more of the things you desire!
You don't need any special skills or experience to succeed in Stemtech because we have a wide range of professional marketing and training tools available, as well as a fully-staffed Business Partner Services department to support your efforts. Available tools include CDs and DVDs, brochures and publications, a step-by-step Success Guide, and professional customized websites complete with videos and an online shopping cart. You can easily share Stemtech information with contacts in other locations, whether it's next door or halfway around the world.
We have a committed and experienced management team and an exclusive product line that is perfectly positioned to capitalize on the media frenzy for natural nutrition. The trends are steadily driving Stemtech toward explosive growth, as we become known around the world as the state-of-the-art nutrition company. We already operate in more than 50 different countries and we are expanding more every year. Stemtech can be a truly global opportunity for you, the opportunity of a lifetime. We invite you to join us and start building your future with Stemtech today!
How Do You Envision Your Future with Stemtech?
One of the most important steps to be taken on your path to success is to determine your future with the company. As a member of the Stemtech team, you have the option of three exciting avenues that can lead to a successful future. You may participate as a Product Consumer, Income Earner or Career Leader.
As a Product Consumer, you have chosen to use Stemtech products for personal use. There are two purchasing options available; 1) you purchase products at retail prices, or 2) you become a Business Partner and purchase products at wholesale prices.
Income Earners can best be described as individuals with busy lives who are looking for an exciting way to earn an extra income. Typically composed of students, stay-at-home parents, part-time workers and motivated full-time workers, Income Earners enjoy all the benefits of maintaining their regular lives, coupled with the opportunity to earn unlimited income with Stemtech!
Career leaders are ambitious entrepreneurs who envision a full-time, home-based business with Stemtech. Driven by the opportunity to excel professionally and be recognized for a job well done, Career Leaders have their goals set on financial freedom.


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redpajama_set_name: RedPajamaCommonCrawl


text:
...until someone gets hurt —
After "swatting" death in Kansas, 25-year-old arrested in Los Angeles
Arrest made after man dies in Kansas "swatting."
Nate Anderson - Dec 30, 2017 4:37 pm UTC
Enlarge / A still from the Wichita Police footage of the shooting.
Wichita Police Department
1289 with 286 posters participating, including story author
The alleged "swatter" behind Thursday's police killing of a Wichita, Kansas, man has been arrested.
"They call it swatting," says grieving Wichita mother after son killed by police
Tyler Barriss, a 25-year-old from South Los Angeles, was taken into custody Friday night, according to the local ABC News affiliate. (ABC also notes that "Glendale police arrested a 22-year-old man with the same name for making bomb threats to KABC-TV" back in 2015.) NBC News, speaking to unnamed local "sources" in LA, says that Barriss "had been living at a transitional recovery center."
Barriss is alleged to have called in a lengthy threat to Wichita police on Thursday night after a Call of Duty game in which two teammates got into an altercation over a $1.50 wager. Screenshots posted to various Twitter accounts show the dispute escalating. Shortly thereafter, the Wichita police received a call alleging that someone at that address had killed his father, taken his family hostage, poured gasoline around the home, and was ready to light it on fire. Cops descended on the area and cordoned it off. When 28-year-old Andrew Finch opened the front door of his home to see why all the lights were flashing outside, he was shot and killed.
A Twitter account called "SWAuTistic" took credit for the swatting but then just as quickly denied any responsibility for the death. On Thursday night, after the shooting, SWAuTistic wrote, "I DIDNT GET ANYONE KILLED BECAUSE I DIDNT DISCHARGE A WEAPON AND BEING A SWAT MEMBER ISNT MY PROFESSION." His Twitter account was suspended soon after.
The man claiming to be behind SWAuTistic gave an interview on Friday to the YouTube show "Drama Alert," in which he explained what allegedly happened. According to this account, SWAuTistic was "sitting in the library" and "minding my own business" when he was contacted by an irate Call of Duty player who had just gotten in a dispute with another player. The first player wanted the second player "swatted." Would SWAuTistic take care of it?
"Sure, I love swatting kids who think that nothing's going to happen," SWAuTistic recounted. He followed his target on social media, and the target eventually egged him on by providing a real-world (but inaccurate) address in Wichita.
A 911 call in Wichita
What happened next was broken down on Friday by the Wichita police in a press conference, which you can watch online. According to the officer giving the briefing, a threatening call came in to City Hall at around 6:15pm local time. The caller said he had shot his dad in the head and was holding his mother and brother in the closet. He had a black handgun and wanted to kill himself. The call apparently continued for a full 20 minutes, even as police dispatch was looped in and officers headed to the scene.
One fake MIT shooter and the troubling trend of "swatting"
Once there, police surrounded the Finch residence. Andrew Finch opened the door, saw police cars all over the place, and heard a police officer with a drawn weapon begin to shout at him: "Walk this way!" (You can see the whole ghastly incident, as captured on police cameras at the scene, along with the 911 call that began it, on the Wichita Police Facebook page. The camera footage comes at the end.)
Finch appears confused and drops his hands, then a police spotlight shines on him, and he appears to raise his hands again. In the middle of a police officer shouting, "Walk this way!" a second time, a single shot rings out, killing Finch.
According to Friday's Wichita police briefing, an officer thought Finch had reached for his "waistband" and then raised his hand again, potentially carrying a gun and posing a threat which needed to be eliminated. Finch died almost immediately, while his mother and other residents of the house were taken outside, handcuffed, and taken to the police station for interviews.
The Wichita Police argue that you have to understand the officers' state of mind here. The 911 call from SWAuTistic had not simply been a one-off; it was a long and continuing call with escalating threats. For instance, at 6:44pm SWAuTistic said he had poured gasoline around the home and was thinking about lighting it; Finch was shot at 6:43pm, just as these further threats were being made.
The Wichita police briefer repeatedly put the full blame for what happened on SWAuTistic, saying that "the irresponsible actions of a prankster put people and lives at risk" and that "due to the actions of a prankster, we have an innocent victim." (Finch's mother had a different view of the police actions, telling the local paper, "What gives the cops the right to open fire? Why didn't they give him the same warning they gave us? That cop murdered my son over a false report.")
Wichita detectives followed leads Thursday night, including those from "social media," and the LAPD arrested Barriss on Friday afternoon.
"Bomb threats are more fun"
Before the arrest, security reporter Brian Krebs was able to get in touch with the person behind the SWAuTistic account. According to Krebs, SWAuTistic "said he's been the victim of swatting attempts himself and that this was the reason he decided to start swatting others." SWAuTistic also provided a reason why he was willing to make random threatening calls on behalf of aggrieved online gamers: "Bomb threats are more fun and cooler than swats in my opinion and I should have just stuck to that... But I began making $ doing some swat requests."
Anti-doxing strategy—or, how to avoid 50 Qurans and $287 of Chick-Fil-A
He also claimed to have been behind the bomb threat that disrupted the FCC net neutrality vote for a few minutes earlier this month.
If Barriss is SWAuTistic, and if his account of how this unfolded is accurate, look for at least one more arrest in the coming days as police seek the person who commissioned the harassment.
Correction: This article originally misspelled Andrew Finch's last name as Fitch.
Nate Anderson Nate is the deputy editor at Ars Technica, where he oversees long-form feature content and writes about technology law and policy. He is the author of The Internet Police: How Crime Went Online, and the Cops Followed.
Email nate@arstechnica.com // Twitter @natexanderson
1289 Reader Comments
Quisquis Ars Praefectus
BuckyJoe wrote:
the mans hand go to waist band area (a favored place to put a gun) then the entire movement into a quick reaction shooting position that has only one purpose which is hostile intent.
Too bad we can't ask him what his intent was, but there's no fucking way I'm believing some random ex-cop who clearly favors defending the police when he says that the guy without a gun was moving in a way whose only purpose is to quickly fire a gun...
marsilies Ars Tribunus Militum
marsilies wrote:
Watching frame-by-frame in the later part of the video, I notice that a bright light is shined directly on Finch immediately before he raises his hands again. Maybe it was a reflexive move to shield his eyes from the bright light?
both hands clasped together to shield eyes from light? Then if it was to shield the eyes from light why did the hands not go to the face area instead of coming together in front of him and then the arms point away from him towards police?
People do sometimes use both hands close together to block light in their eyes:
They'll also sometimes hold a hand out towards the source of the light instead of directly over their face:
Sometimes they'll extend out both hands towards the light source:
And you've provided no explanation for why an unarmed man would take a "shooting stance".
Thoughtful Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius et Subscriptor
Buckyjoe is not going to change his or her mind.
Any chance this thread can die now?
BuckyJoe Account Banned
shelbystripes wrote:
Shavano wrote:
Its the same 'threshold' for everyone. Just because a police officer is a police officer, although he/she may be better trained, he/she does not give up their inherent natural right to defense of self or others which is always based on a "belief" that such is necessary or not for police and civilians alike. That "belief" may have been right or wrong when looked under the scrutiny of law after the fact, that scrutiny of the 'belief' decides if the belief was 'reasonable' or not given the imminent or immediate situation and thus its called 'reasonable belief'. The law recognizes that 'inherent natural right' and does not place restrictions on it which apply for one but not another, to do so makes the law unfairly balanced or oppressive by restricting that inherent natural right when inherent natural rights can not be restricted (according to constitutional arguments, human rights groups, SCOTUS).
It is not a man made law right to determine that a person can or can not make a decision based upon their "belief", police officers are no different. The law does not interfere with that decision of inherent natural right to defense of self or others and you should think your lucky stars the law doesn't. If it comes to a point where 'inherent natural rights' can be restricted there will also come a time when you will not have a right to freedom of speech (or some other right) either for if inherent rights can be restricted then man made granted rights are not far behind.
You're wrong here on both your major points. First, as applied, police have more leeway, not less than civilians in applying force in dubious circumstances. They get the benefit of nonexistent doubt more often than not and regularly get away with beating, maiming and killing civilian suspects. It might be the same on paper but as it plays out in real life, cops get away with murder or at least manslaughter.
Second, there is no such thing as an inherent natural right. Rights are defined by law and custom and no other rights exist. Every right people have has been argued over and fought for and wasn't obvious to everybody until heads were put together and it was decided that people wanted that right to exist and that it would be enforced.
No, i'm not wrong on any point. You just think i'm wrong.
It may be that some cops have gotten away with "murder or at least manslaughter", but the discussion is not about "some cops" and is about one officer namely the one that fired the fatal round. Trying to expand it in a manner to basically say that because a cop somewhere may have gotten away with "murder or at least manslaughter" at some point means this officer will get away with "murder or at least manslaughter" is wrong. Just as it may be that some vehicle drivers have gotten away with "murder or at least manslaughter" in a hit and run killing someone they ran over, you can not equate that to mean that all vehicle drivers will get away with "murder or at least manslaughter". Your argument is a false equivalency that one means the other when it doesn't.
Also, If you believe there is no such thing as "inherent natural rights" then you do not believe the Constitution of the United States (bill of rights) which builds upon those rights, and the Declaration of Independence for which in the preamble it states (in part) "...that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." exists. The very fact that one is able to freely speak or post on the internet like you do now (freedom of speech) testifies to the existence of "inherent natural right" as the first amendment and others in the Constitution are derived from and based upon that described in the Declaration as "...certain unalienable Rights"
In the USA, "inherent natural rights" are referred to mostly as "unalienable rights" ever since the 1776 Declaration of Independence. Some call them natural rights to distinguish them from State-granted rights. "inherent natural rights" appear and are applied in many different contexts and situations.
"inherent natural rights" are recognized the world over, for example some information for you,:
http://ejil.org/pdfs/24/1/2380.pdf
http://opiniojuris.org/2017/04/10/more- ... f-defense/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_and_legal_rights
http://www.answers.com/Q/What_are_inali ... s?#slide=1
http://unalienable.com/
http://www.nlnrac.org/american/u.s.-supreme-court
https://www.americanbar.org/publication ... efens.html
http://www.jgspl.org/justice-gorsuch-natural-law/
In addition to the information examples provided above, hmm, do what a common sense person would do like a google search maybe where "inherent natural rights" can be found presented in probably thousands of places.
You are correct in saying that there is a concept of "inherent natural rights" or "unalienable rights" or "fundamental rights" under the law. Not everyone agrees with the concept, but it exists.
Where you are incorrect as a matter of law is asserting that any person has an "inherent natural right" or a "fundamental right" to take another person's life based on a purely subjective, unreasonable fear. You are conflating the actual right to self-defense (which requires an actual, imminent threat) with a rule that permits the use of force far more broadly than that. I've even acknowledged that a purely objective standard of reasonableness should exist in situations where there was no actual, imminent threat. That's not a fundamental right, but a rule meant to avoid discouraging the exercise of that fundamental right.
But in a situation where a person in a home is surrounded by police, the person hasn't been identified as a perpetrator or victim yet, and no weapon was seen or drawn... there is no actual, imminent threat there, and no reasonable basis for asserting an actual, imminent threat. If the current law automatically excuses that shooting, then it is too broad. And when that act is performed by an agent of the government, it deprives an innocent unarmed civilian of their inalienable right to life as stated in the Declaration of Independence.
Which you seem to be completely ignoring here.
Where you are incorrect as a matter of law is asserting that any person has an "inherent natural right" or a "fundamental right" to take another person's life based on a purely subjective, unreasonable fear.
I never said that. Its you who started saying it was "unreasonable". Its not "unreasonable" if, as I also said and indicated in comment before, the law finds the shooting justified.
Now you're getting into circular reasoning. It's reasonable because it's justified, and it's justified because it's not unreasonable?
You keep presupposing that the shooting is reasonable, and then using the law (which uses a subjective intent element, not a purely objective reasonable person standard) to assert that it's justified. But whether it's permitted/justified under the current law and whether it's "reasonable" are two different things.
I've already conceded, repeatedly, that you correctly named all the elements of the current law. Why can't you concede that one of those elements that you named I s a subjective test and not an objective reasonable-person test?
Since it's also the element that evaluates the officer's state of mind, that subjective element means that an officer can legally shoot an innocent person based on a purely subjective, objectively unreasonable fear of that person (if the other elements of the test are met). That is the state of the law today.
I'm not ignoring anything. You simply are basing your arguments on a lack of understanding of how the law is applied for deadly force in reality. You express the same view point the general public usually expresses, its not a new argument.
I am 100% certain that I have more experience reading, interpreting, and applying constitutional law than you do.
i'm 100% certain that you know nothing about use of deadly force.
No, i'm not getting into circular reasoning. You are the one who started saying "unreasonable" then stated trying to make it look like I said it. I said in my comment previous to this one, if the law says its justified then its not unreasonable - I did not say It's reasonable because it's justified and i did not say it's justified because it's not unreasonable.
You say you have "more experience reading, interpreting, and applying constitutional law than". I'm not trying to interpret and apply any law as IANAL thus not qualified for such, but I doubt the 'legal' qualifications you claim because if you did you would not have missed the single biggest clue right in front of you which has been validated, upheld, and employed by law and the SCOTUS that a first year law student would have seen as to why this officer will not be charged criminally for this shooting and why this family's lawyer has not pushed the Wichita or Kansas state prosecutor office for charging the officer. You are looking right at it and are blind to it so wrapped up in your 'unreasonable' tunnel vision. You have talked all around it, left and right, up and down, then you resort to "unreasonable" trying to polarize the discussion in one direction only.
I don't need to "concede" that which you point out as "a subjective test and not an objective reasonable-person test". I don't need to "concede" it because you applied it improperly and defined it incorrectly for its application (and even out of order as well) so it would fit into your "unreasonable" argument. When you start seeing what you missed and apply things in their proper contextual application without this wild polarizing "unreasonable" thing you have going on and get out of your tunnel vision we can talk further.
Last edited by BuckyJoe on Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:05 pm
I understand what you are trying to say, but...
But did they clasp their hands together, then point them out to a particular spot away from the light? Nope, he was spot lighted from the north, he points to the east away from the light. That's not blocking light from his eyes.
And you've provided no explanation for why an unarmed man would take a "shooting stance"
sorry about that, saw it in your previous comments but got distracted by someone here for something else so did not include it previously.
an explanation? I don't have an explanation for why he would do that. I do not know what he was thinking at the time. Its an impossible question to answer, it requires knowing what he was thinking at the time. Maybe he did not take the situation seriously and thought it was funny. Maybe he thought that they would not shoot if they did not see a gun. Maybe he was intoxicated. Heck, maybe he thought he was picking apples - who knows what he thought when he did that. Sometimes people just do strange things for no explainable reason that others can see or know or understand.
What he did not think about was that all the police at to go on at that time was there was a gun and hostages. That when they police approached the house (not seen in the video released, which picks up around the time he opens the screen door and steps forward) and give him several commands which he fails to obey, they tell him why they are there and ask him if everyone is ok and if he has a gun, he remains silent and fails to obey commands to turn around so they can see if he has a weapon tucked into his waistband at the back, then the police retreat back to the east where they came from. He opens the screen door, steps forward, raises his hands then puts his hands down, hand goes to waist band, then up quickly in front of him joined by the other hand in a shooters grip up to head eye level then pointing at the officers (in a movement called a quick reaction shooting position movement) on the east where he saw them retreat to.
Can you give me an explanation why he chooses to open the screen door and step forward then raise his hands after previously failing to obey several commands? Can you give me an explanation as to why he then put his hands down and his hand went to his waist band after a moment of hesitation? If he was blocking light from his eyes as you say, then why did his hands when they came down not go to block the light instead of coming all the way down then hesitate then to his waist band, can you give me an explanation for that?
So if you want to guess why he did all you asked about and this, feel free but all its going to be is a guess and we can play "what if" and "maybe" all day long because no one else knows what he was thinking when he did these things.
Last edited by BuckyJoe on Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:21 pm
alkeiser Ars Praetorian
Yet again, BuckyJoe will *never* side against cops.
Fuck cops
shelbystripes Ars Praefectus
I love the sound of my own keyboard in my lonely basement dwelling
You keep saying the exact same wrong things you've already said, hoping somehow they'll actually be mistaken for something right this time.
Nope. Still wrong, same reasons as the last time.
so failing to get me to agree with your comments, you resort to deliberately quoting me then replacing what I said with your own insults and just saying i'm wrong. Whats the matter, all out of more "maybes" and "what if's" from your fantasy world? Now you're throwing a temper tantrum.
You should really get out more and talk to real people and see the world as it really is instead of drawing your information from too much time on the internet, movies and TV shows, and your imagination. Its funny too, because in some of your comments the lines are straight out of a TV Law and Order episode word for word. My wife watches that show, shes the one that pointed it out to me when she read what you wrote then she found the episode and we watched it - some of the the lines and "concepts' you used are straight from that show word for word. The very "almost a scenario you tried to invent" you used is exactly the case they are dealing with on the show episode.
alkeiser wrote:
and yet again, this is wrong.
You should really get out more and talk to real people and see the world as it really is instead of drawing your information from too much time on the internet, movies and TV shows, and your imagination.
Yeah, this is hilarious. I am more than qualified to teach you criminal procedure.
I let my comments speak for themselves in terms of how well versed I am in both the law and its application. I think other people are capable of judging that for themselves. Which is why I'm confident they'll find your sad attempt at an insult to be completely off-base.
yeah yeah yeah, sure you are. Yet you're blind to the biggest thing right in front of you that shows you exactly why this officer is not charged criminally, the very basic of things every attorney looks for and knows and all criminal cases rely on, yet here you are blinded to it and are talking right around it as if its not even there. Oh, but forgive me, after all you are so qualified in the law and everything.. yeah right. Don't worry, your comments have spoken.
It wasn't an attempt at an insult, it was just telling the truth.
Name a single time you have ever not defended cops.
Darkness1231 Ars Praefectus et Subscriptor
because the officer that fired (on the north) was in a position to see the mans hand go to waist band area (a favored place to put a gun) then the entire movement into a quick reaction shooting position that has only one purpose which is hostile intent. So the officer that fired saw it from beginning to end, the other officers, including swat, in other positions were not in a position to see the mans hand go to waist band area. The officer was not 'self appointed' nor is the officers name 'Wyatt Earp'.
I could explain that for you but I'll give you a hint instead so you can figure it out for yourself, something you obviously missed, the hint is: there are police on the north and the east of the house.
This is beyond ludicrous. Cops are not justified in shooting somebody just for moving their hand to their waist and cops as a rule do not do that as you imply they should. If they did, there wouldn't be any damn cops because the public wouldn't tolerate their existence.
no one shot him for just moving his hand to his waist. You still haven't figured it out, its right there in front of you in the publicly released video and you still have not figured it out.
Except you're being completely wrong headed about this.
You are the Blue Line, the Blue Wall. You refuse to see the situation from any place except you lying on the ground after you were shot.
This is not that. Neither is it then.
You do not get it. We citizens are supposed to be protected against bad actors. A totally innocent citizen goes to his front door and gets killed. The heightened sense of panic/fear/tripidation and the fear of what might be in his hand is the cause of his death. Nothing about the real situation warranted his death.
Your only position appears to be: Cops are justified whenever they pull the trigger. Cause. Cops. Guns. Panic. Fear. Lying on the ground with a bullet wound is saying this.
We are saying, politely, QUIT KILLING US!. Get rid of the boys in blue that are too weak, too afraid and too much a cowboy to handle innocent citizens coming to their door. Quit covering for those that fail. Just quit.
You were not there. This was not your fight. This was not your assailant.
It was an innocent man gunned down in his doorway. By a cop.
We want it stopped. As a policeman, I thought you were on our side. You were supposed to protect us.
That is how I was raised. That is what I was taught.
psd Ars Tribunus Angusticlavius
"inherent natural rights" are unenforceable until written into "man made" law.
rmgoat wrote:
Buckjoe
So explain BRIEFLY (if you understand the word) why NO other officer, including the trained SWAT officers felt it necessary to fire except self appointed 'Wyatt Earp'.
What I can't figure out is why this man tucked the gun into his waistband in the middle of what the cop reasonably believes is an active hostage situation to take a stroll outside.
Darkness1231 wrote:
yes, I "get it". I put my life on the line to "get it" to protect, I "get it" a lot more than you can ever understand. You sit here behind your keyboard and cry about it wanting to lash out and blame me and all police officers.
I never said or indicated "Cops are justified whenever they pull the trigger." - stop trying to twist everything I say into your arguments and purposely misrepresent them, don't be so cheap and low down and scummy as to do that then pretend you are "intelligently discussing". i'm talking about this particular incident while others seem to want to say "this means that all cops get away with murder" and that is just not true. There have been cops that were wrong and did kill someone unjustifiably. Others here want me to say that for this incident also, but it just is not so for this incident.
Stop trying to psychoanalyze me as your excuse for the "trial by public opinion lynch mob mentality" going on.
I am on your side. I'm just not on the side of what I know to be fact and truth in this incident even though you do not see it and that is this officer did not "murder" this man nor did this officer arrive there intending to shoot this man nor did this officer pull the trigger with the evil glee people seem to want to portray. As I have said, based upon the video, information I know to be fact about this incident, experience, and training, it appears this officer had a "reasonable belief" (under law) the man had a gun and if that is, under law, shown to be true then the shooting was, under law, justified. I'm seeing it from what I know to be fact and true for the whole thing, your seeing it from the "innocent man killed" view and I understand that. I'm not "killing" you, nor are all police officers, nor do we plan our days around "killing innocent civilians", as you or others seem to think.
If the shooting is "justified" under law it does not mean the man did not get killed or that basically a homicide did not happen because it did, it just basically means its not a "criminal homicide".
You want me to say "justified or not an innocent man was murdered". I'm not going to say that. What you want is a "yes man" to just agree with you, i'm not that man so if you want someone else to agree with you then get someone else. I'm my own person, i'm a grown up and can form my own opinions free of the insistence that I agree with you or another. If the officer was wrong and the shooting is not justified I would have said that too. You are extrapolating from your own arguments what you think I believe or think, how biased can you possibly be? You created a bias against me in your arguments and mind based upon something you don't even know but rather what you wanted it to be instead of what it actually is. You don't know me so don't pretend you do, I've handcuffed and arrested bad and abusive officers, I've testified against an officer who unjustifiably shot someone in cold blood. Contrary to opinion, there are more bad officers gotten rid of by other officers and police unions - the "blue line - protect the brotherhood at all costs" concept vanished a long time ago and now mostly exists in stories of the past and it vanished because there is just too much accountability atmosphere now that can't be avoided that did not exist in the past. My opinion and comments has nothing to do with the fact that I was shot myself - so stop your make believe BS pseudo psychoanalyzing trying to make excuses for a lynch mob mentality and blame me just because I happen to be here and just because I happen to have been a police officer and there is a general "hate police" attitude going on.
Maybe his arms got tired? Maybe he was trying to balance himself in performing the commanded movements by lowering his center of gravity but may look like a "shooting stance".
Those same people are also capable of judging your arrogance. IANAL, of course.
psd wrote:
maybe yes, maybe no. I don't know.
maybe maybe maybe , what if what if what if - you don't really know I don't really know. Its easy to just make something up and say "maybe he...". The reality is that you do not know nor do I, neither you nor I or anyone else would be able to actually know why the man made those movement into that position unless the man himself explained it to us. The reality is that people just sometimes do strange things at odd moments that may even be out of character for them and that others, including family members, have not seen them do before. The only one that can explain it is the man himself, and that's not going to happen.
S8ER01Z Ars Scholae Palatinae
Yeah because your stance is clearly rational and not the least bit hypocritical.
maybe maybe maybe , what if what if what if - you don't really know. Its easy to just make something up and say "maybe he...". The reality is that you do not know nor do I, neither you nor I or anyone else would be able to actually know unless the man himself explained it to us. The reality is that people just sometimes do strange things at odd moments that may even be out of character for them and that others, including family members, have not seen them do before. The only one that can explain it is the man himself, and that's not going to happen.
The same can be said for the cop- maybe he's reaching for the gun, maybe he's getting into a shooting stance, etc. etc.
A cop that KNOWS that people just do strange things at odd moments should be a cop that holds fire for a moment or two longer. A lot of innocent lives would be spared by just waiting a moment longer to confirm the odd behaviour.
Many cops fail at this and it is disappointing the community they serve.
Self-assurance that other people will recognize the value of one's knowledge and experience is not arrogance, it is confidence. Those are two different things. The difference is, I welcome other people independently judging what I write.
I'm also confident I know the law better than you because you routinely admit you are not a lawyer. That's not arrogance either, it's just a fact. I have years of experience that you do not.
I don't tell you I'm wrong because I'm better than you. I have explained to you, repeatedly, the specific places where you are wrong and why. I've basically been offering you a free legal education, and you're wasting it. That's fine with me. But if you're not on Ars to actually learn things from the various highly intelligent posters here, then why are you here?
Your consistent use of the appeal to authority logical fallacy is arrogant. You want us to go along with your explanation because of your claim to superiority on the topic.
logical fallacy and arrogance all in one. bravo to you on that achievement!
yes and no, some fail and some don't. The fact that an officer would need to stop and consider it may be just some strange behavior could also result in lives lost also. Time is a very critical factor and that moment of "imminent" still arrives anyway when the person acts like they have a weapon even if they don't and is refusing to obey commands.
The officer did in this case hold fire for a "moment longer". Even though the officer said he believed the man was reaching for a gun at the waist band (thus believed he had a gun) it was not until the hands are in the "shooters" grasp position and the arms extended and "shooters" grasp pointed at police on the east that the officer fired. That was the last possible moment, the moment of "imminent" when the officer fired.
Last edited by BuckyJoe on Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:43 am
Your consistent commission of the appeal to authority logical fallacy is arrogant.
If you even bothered to pay attention, you'll notice I only raised it to BuckyJoe as a response to him making an ad hominem and his own flawed appeal to authority. And then you chose to engage me on it. It's not a "logical fallacy" to respond to someone else's attack on your character.
If you want a true example of arrogance, it would be a person who knows they aren't a lawyer and have no legal training or experience, yet they constantly make and push objectively wrong statements about the law despite being unanimously told they're wrong. That's an excellent real world example of arrogance.
Robot Dinosaur Ars Scholae Palatinae
I'm not sure shelbystripes claimed to be a lawyer or to have legal education or experience. Maybe in a different thread, I'm not interested enough to search, but the quotes nested immediately above aren't claiming any actual authority to appeal to. Shelbystripes isn't saying "I'm right because I'm a lawyer", they're saying, "I'm right because you haven't written anything that convincingly contradicts anything I've said about this topic." To the extent they are 'claiming superiority' on this topic, they are only doing so because they believe (rightfully, in my opinion) that they have presented the most convincing and complete information.
yes and no, some fail and some don't. The fact that an officer has to stop and consider it may be just some strange behavior could also result in lives lost also. Time is a very critical factor and that moment of "imminent" still arrives anyway when the person acts like they have a weapon even if they don't and is refusing to obey commands.
At what point does a cop decide that a "moment of "imminent" still arrives anyway"?
Robot Dinosaur wrote:
I'm not sure shelbystripes claimed to be a lawyer or to have legal education or experience.
I have never declared my actual profession or education on here. I deliberately avoid doing so. I want my arguments to speak for themselves, and I want discussions to be about the topic, not about me.
I only said as much as I did to BuckyJoe because he accused me of being some clueless idiot parroting Wikipedia and Law & Order reruns. I have the right to respond to such baseless accusations.
Basically, based upon information available and the characteristics of the individual in actions, the belief formed as the result of that and of the threat to life being right then if its not stopped, helps decide if the moment of "imminent" has arrived. Or basically and outlined as the law puts it, the threat to life is imminent due to the application of deadly force.
Yes, he did claim to not only have legal education but to claim of actually being a qualified legal educator himself (criminal procedure) and yes, he did claim to have years of experience as a lawyer. And yes, he does believe we should accept his "explanations" because the only reason non-lawyers come to Ars forums is to learn from his expertise.
All that in the immediate nested quotes you couldn't be interested enough search.
So when you commented this in previous comments to me:
I let my comments speak for themselves in terms of how well versed I am in both the law and its application.
I am more than qualified to teach you criminal procedure
So you were lying then just as you are lying now. Its like I said.
At what point does a cop consider if the person is simply doing "strange things at odd moments that may even be out of character for them"?
This is not a declaration of my profession or education. It's literally the exact opposite. It's a statement that I'm not naming my profession or education, I'm instead letting people decide for themselves if I know what I'm talking about or not. If people want to decide I'm an idiot with no education whatsoever, I'm not stopping them.
This was just a response to one of your ad hominem attacks. Like I said above, I have the right to respond to baseless accusations.
This was also just a response to one of your ad hominem attacks. See above.
There is no lie. Where is the lie?
And you make your own assumptions about everyone that is not you. Everyone else is wanting to lash out at your precious clear soul.
See, here is the thing. You have never said anything but (paraphrasing here). Cops good. Innocent citizen moved wrong. Got what was coming to him. And you never once have said that you felt anyting except others should automatically believe your spewing.
No I don't you to say yes to anything. In fact I don't want you at all. I don't want your attitude, you act like a child kicking his feet cause nobody is nice to you. Because you citizen's can never understaaaaaand. So you make assumptions about what I am thinking while accusing me of making assumptions. Nice. Worked in junior high. Not now.
To be clear: I don't want cops like you running around with guns killing innocent people. I want even less to watch them band together as the horde of blues to sing out it's the citizen's fault. The fellow cop was just doing the right thing by blowing that innocent man's brains out. Even when you were not there. Even when you are reaching to show the extreme the blue wall goes to say the one cop saw what no other officer saw because you don't like people, citizens, being upset about ... well, them getting killed. By your buddies.
This is the first time in your history that you said anything against a cop. At all. Oddly enough, I don't believe you. Because you are not honest. You do not trust citizens. The very people you were sworn to protect, you bend the facts, trying to validate the killing, make it a good kill. So the misunderstood cop will go home, to his family and his pension. To be surrounded by his brothers in blue - the ones that did not kill the very same man in cold blood.
Even if this case was completely proven to be unjustified you just said you wouldn't say it. Because cops. Yet you assume that's what I want. I don't want you at all. Nothing from you is helpful. Because if someone was shot, they must have moved their hand like a Ninja or a superspy pulling a non-existent gun from thin air to drop into a combat stance that they don't even know what that means.
Your history is coming on and every single time thus far have been pro-cop, pro-shooting was justified, you citizens just can't understand, because cops, and blue wall. I am just simply calling bullshit on you. You have never backed a comment that supported a citizen, nor have you ever said anything against a fellow cop before this. Which is totally a cop out. You have no history of being honest, open or accepting of anything that isn't glorious kissing of cop butt.
You present yourself like you are the rational one, trying to counter the cop-hate. You aren't. You're proving our view. Proving that you will support any action by a cop against any citizen. Innocent or not. And you will never say it was unjustified. Ever. Go somewhere else. Spew your anti-citizen zeal elsewhere. What you have made very clear in your efforts here, that cops don't believe anyone is innocent, until they roll over their dead body and cannot find a gun. But they can rest easy, because cops will say "It's allright, BuckyJoe just confirmed that was a Ninja move. He deserved to die." Funny thing is, we don't trust cops. And you, BuckyJoe, are the reason why.
Also, heads up. You walls of text are pure horseshit to get through. Even worse they not really worth reading through. You have a reasonable use of the language, you just suck at communicating with it. At very least you suck at formatting it. I had to search to find the "Oh yeah, well I put cuffs on a bad cop. So there, nyah."
Operative Me Ars Legatus Legionis et Subscriptor
yes, I "get it". I put my life on the line to "get it" to protect, I "get it" a lot more than you can ever understand.
Oh you sanctimonious, self-important shit. Lots of people have "put their lives on the line", so holding that bullshit up like you want a pat on the back is disgusting. It doesn't make you right. It doesn't give you magic immunity from criticism and correction of your arguments. Based on the way you've used it here, all it does it make it look like your time as a police officer colored your worldview enough to make it impossible for you to be reasonable or unbiased when looking at things related to police actions.
*I* put my life on the life too. Five years active duty in the middle of two wars. Guess what? It doesn't make my position right automatically. It doesn't imbue my point of view with some magic correctness.
Having been a cop might give you greater insight into what cops experience, but it doesn't give you magic powers to understand what the letter of the law is, or how criminal procedure should operate according to that law. Those are things that are taught in law school, and you have at least two people here who have legal experience. Shelby might not give away everything, but I'm happy to declare that I've practiced law, I've taught law, and I'm employed by a federal court helping to write legal analysis. Doesn't make me right, but it does mean when it comes to things involving law I'm likely to have more insight than you.
You get credit for the expertise you have, but precisely in the realm that experience lies in. You don't get credit for having expertise on things tangentially related to it. Your expertise doesn't give you knowledge of the law. About the only thing outside of your particular lane it might have given you insight into is the concept of prosecutorial discretion, where despite the fact that a police officer arrests someone (even a guilty person), the prosecutor declines to prosecute for whatever reason.
Which, if you were smart, might give you insight to the idea that district attorneys or prosecutors (especially ones who are elected, as it is done in many places) have other considerations in mind other than "did he break the letter of the law". Which you might have realized is just as valid an interpretation of why a police officer hasn't been charged here, if weren't blinded by your own time as a cop.
Save your "I put my life on the line" bullshit for people that it's going to impress. You did a job you fucking volunteered for. That's all you did. That's all I did. You should be ashamed that you use it as an emotional cudgel to try to fucking win internet points.
Also, where is this "shooter's stance" nonsense coming from? I thought he was "reaching towards his waistband" (according to the police) Has that narrative shifted? Let me make this clear: the police can claim the victim did some action, but if you accept that narrative without proof, you are not looking at the evidence in an unbiased manner. Their description of the victim's actions are intentional declarations, and used to sway public perception.
You commented this:
The lies are in this:
I only said as much as I did to BuckyJoe because he accused me of being some clueless idiot parroting Wikipedia and Law & Order reruns
First, I never said you were "parroting Wikipedia".
Second, you commented this:
...before I commented anything about Law & Order.
Third, although you did not specifically name an "actual profession or education" your comments:
...those comments point to a specific claimed certification or qualification in being "well versed" in "reading, interpreting, and applying constitutional law" and teaching "criminal procedure" - something you now admit you do not have.
thus you lied. It doesn't matter if you want to rationalize it away as response in self defense against "ad hominem attacks", its still a lie.
BuckyJoe, pretend the votes on your comments are the jury deciding who is winning this argument you're having with shelbystripes.
Quisquis wrote:
No, don't do that. Argumentum ad populum is as stupid as buckyjoe's "well look at me, I put my life on the line" bullshit. 20 people telling him he's wrong doesn't mean he's wrong. Being wrong make him wrong. Nobody should care about who is "winning" the argument, they should care about knowing the truth about what they're arguing about.
Buckyjoe's attempts to use his injury over and over and over as though it has any bearing on how we should feel about his attempts to cast the video in the light of the police is disgusting, but that doesn't mean we have to stoop to trying to count votes as though they determine who "wins".