text:
SubRosa's Rebecca Vernon Speaks Out About Her Mormon Faith and Support for LGBTQI Rights
Stream the new album, For This We Fought the Battle of Ages, and read an emotionally intense interview with guitarist/vocalist Vernon.
by Louise Brown
Aug 25 2016, 4:18pm
Photo by Chris Martindale
Doom metal and dystopia have always made for morbid bedfellows, and Salt Lake's SubRosa have been proving themselves to be remarkably adept at putting apocalyptic warnings to mournful music since 2005. The band—led by guitarist and vocalist, Rebecca Vernon, alongside violinists/singers Sarah Pendleton and Kim Pack and the rhythm section of Andy Patterson (drums) and Levi Hanna (bass)—have dipped into science fiction's morbid visions throughout their four full-length albums. On their latest LP For This We Fought the Battle of Ages (out 8/26 via Profound Lore), the five delved deep into sci-fi novel We for inspiration. Written by Yevgeny Zamyatin in 1921, the book describes an alarmingly familiar future wherein human imagination, desire, and revolution are oppressed. SubRosa use science fiction to "universalize" the issues that are important to the band, says Rebecca, but never have they chosen to write a song that she would like to directly lead to positive change—until now. For This We Fought the Battle of Ages ends with a song that takes a turn away from the central sci-fi theme, and instead looks at a much more personal and immediate issue.
In November 2015, the Latter Day Saints church in Utah set out new directives that rocked SubRosa's city to the core. According to the New York Times, the change in the official church handbook now says that "the 'natural or adopted' children of parents in same-sex relationships — whether married or cohabiting — cannot be blessed as babies, baptized or ordained into the priesthood (if they are male), nor can they serve as missionaries. They can join the church after age 18, but only if they move out of their parents' home, disavow same-sex unions and receive permission from the church's top leadership, the First Presidency."
On For This We Fought the Battle of Ages, Rebecca made the difficult decision to go public about her Mormon faith, and wrote a song specifically speaking out against these directives and offer support to both the LGBTQI teenagers stuck at the heart of this controversial morass. Titled "Troubled Cells," the song serves as the final track of an incredibly haunting and emotion-driven album.
For the first time, Rebecca has revealed to Noisey what drove her to lift the veil on her private life to help raise awareness of this difficult and devastating topic that lies so close to her heart.
Noisey: Thank you for talking to us about the themes behind this incredible song. Could you explain why this particular church directive has been so controversial?
Rebecca Vernon: Sure, I was hesitant. I just didn't know whether to talk about it at all. I was torn about whether to do interviews. I usually don't mind talking about my lyrics, but when they're really personal I do tend to get more vague and then with this, it's so personal and it's been such a source of pain and heartbreak.
So, the Mormon church came out with a new policy last November that really hit a lot of people the wrong way, in and out of the church. Because of how the church has been about gay people, I didn't think there would be any who would be interested in having their children baptized, but as a matter of fact ,there are quite a few gay members who have this beautiful faith, and they would like to have their children baptized. I think most of them can sense there is a bigger picture, and [that] Mormon theology is missing pieces. That actually bothered the most people, that children couldn't be baptized. It felt like total exclusion of children and that really made a lot of people upset. The second part and the part that upset me the most is that gay people that get married will be excommunicated. With that directive, it kills hope for change, and hope that maybe one day a gay person could get married in the church. You're facing those two paths, 'Do I leave my faith to have companionship or do I stay in my faith and go without companionship?'. It's an impossible decision.
What prompted you to write something so personal to counter this policy?
The dialogue in the Mormon church about LGBTQI issues has been negative, it's been toxic. I hoped for change one day, even had faith that things would change one day and there were signs that things were changing. I have never seen anything like it in my lifetime; being in the church, I've never seen something upset so many people. It was a really weird moment for me, because it was the first time I actually felt connected to other Mormons. I actually feel very disconnected and it's always been hard to fit in, so I've been content to be aloof, but then that policy came out and I connected with all these people being upset. It felt like this connectedness that I'd never felt before.
In the days after it came out, I was so traumatized. I was shaking for the first 48 hours, because I knew it was going to lead to so many suicides. I could relate so strongly to what it feels like to be so different in the church and it's been so hard for me to walk that path, that was why I felt so connected to the LGBTQI people in the church and I could feel their opinion so strongly.
This is not necessarily something that will speak only to LGBTQI people in the Mormon community, too.
Absolutely. The thing about this song and about the video we're making, is that it can apply to LGBTQI people in any religious communities, or just ones that are just rejected by their family or bu society in general. You're right, it is important to talk about it, and I'm starting to realize that more and more. I don't want the focus to be on the band, I want to bring it into the light and then step back but if we have the opportunity to talk about it we should and no matter if it's uncomfortable or not. I have to because it's so important.
It's been said that often art that incites change, is that something you believe?
Oh gosh, I've written music and lyrics all throughout SubRosa, spreading awareness and expressing myself about social and political issues and problems, but I've never actually written a song that I actually want to directly lead to change. I deliberately, unashamedly made this video to try and get people to be aware of what's happening and have some human feeling about it. I hope that art can change the world, that's what we're trying to do.
When did you begin to work on the song? Were you already finished writing For This We Fought the Battle of Ages?
I had all these ideas of getting involved and volunteering and doing what I could to stop this or to spread awareness. Within about a week of the policy being announced I had the idea that I should write a song, and it had to be the best song I have ever written. And the idea of making a video to go with it came soon after, I was just really passionate about it. I fashioned the lyrics around a short fantasy story by Ursula Le Guin called "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas", it's only four pages and you can find it on the internet. Anyway, sure enough, since November, there have been more documented suicides of LGBTQI Latter Day Saints in the wake of the policy change. Even one suicide is too many, and the number keeps increasing, and a lot of them are young, under 19, and it's really devastating. A lot of people are really heartbroken, and so many outreach groups are trying to reach these LGBTQI people and their families, and trying to get people to wake up and to reach the leaders themselves. I don't know what's going through their minds. I couldn't believe they could be that ignorant, to put out a policy like this and not know it could cause so much damage. There's supposed to be a new handbook coming out in October, and there is a rumor they're going to be softening the policy, but there needs to be a complete rewrite of our entire narrative and there needs to be a place in Mormon theology for gay people. There needs to be respect and equality.
How has the church reacted to the song?
I haven't told that many people because, like I said, I'm not that close to that many Mormons, but there is a gay man in my ward―the church is divided into smaller, geographical parts, so he's in my ward―and he's the leader of a LGBTQI support group in Salt Lake that's neutral in their position, they're neither for or against the church, they're just there to support. Some support groups will just parrot what the church's official standing is and others are against the church, but [his group] Affirmation is squarely in the middle and I feel really comfortable there, that they're not just going to just vomit back what the church says. I met with him and told him about the song and video; it's an artistic statement that we stand behind and believe in but I still wanted to make sure we weren't saying or doing anything insensitive, and I met with the leaders of the Mama Dragons, which is a group of mothers of LGBTQI youth in the church. I told a couple of other members in my ward who are more liberal and they're excited—and then I started to tell my family.
My family is more conservative, but they know this is a huge issue for me. I told everyone in my family except for one brother. I'm willing to face any consequences because I just know I have to say something, and I have to reach out to those people who are suffering, and no matter what happens to me, it doesn't matter, because there are so many people who are in pain. So, I'm willing to be kicked out of the church, I'm willing to face consequences, but with my family, that's the hardest part. Just the idea of being estranged from them or them being upset at me_but I can't let that stop me because all these LGBTQI people, especially the youth, are being rejected by their families and being kicked out of their houses. Forty percent of the homeless youth in Utah are LGBTQI, it's awful.
Do you believe this policy is at odds with your faith, which ultimately is based on compassion and forgiveness?
A lot of churches and faiths are based on compassion and Christianity is based on the figure of Christ who is this example of unconditional love and courageous love. The leaders will say, "Of course we love gay people, of course they're welcome, of course they can come to church," but the stipulation is they have to be celibate for life, and then if they do marry and have children their children, cannot be baptized until they turn 18 and disavow their parent's lifestyle. [Under this directive], the very core parts of who you are cannot be expressed, you can never hope for companionship or romance in this life, or sexual fulfillment, all of that is denied you—and they're not understanding what that does to someone's psyche and how that hurts. No wonder they feel trapped. It's heartbreaking.
This is the first time you have openly talked about your beliefs, was it a difficult decision to put your faith out there?
Growing up in the Mormon church, in a religious culture in general, I definitely have experienced a lot of people wearing their faith on their sleeve and so because of that I have this bad taste in my mouth about being outspoken about what I believe in. It's been so personal that I do tend to keep it very much to myself and I purposely don't put it in my lyrics. I'll universalize things I might be singing about, because I have trouble with people who try to shove their ideologies down my throat. At the same time, some bands are really good at it and are respected for it, like Wovenhand. That's the perfect example, he's much more outspoken about what he believes in. Wovenhand is absolutely respected and I think that's because he is who he is and doesn't try to hide it. I'm not ashamed of who I am eithe,r but I have this weird mental block about people making sure everyone knows how devout they are and how pious. I just wanted to keep it to myself. And there is so much black and white thinking in the metal scene, everything about religion is bad—"There is not one redeeming thing about it, it's all a lie, it leads people astray, there is no higher creator"—and it's really hard when I encounter that way of thinking. All I see is grey, I see complexity and there is truth in the church but yes, some people get it wrong and there is man-made parts to religion that can be oppressive. It's complicated.
Did the band get behind your idea behind this song?
Yes, but I knew that this song was different than any song we'd written and could elicit such a strong response because there are so many emotions around this issue right now in Utah. I did consider, "Do I do this under the SubRosa umbrella or under my own name?" At first, I was going to do it personally, and then I started talking to the members of the band and they said they'd be honored to be involved. I realized all of them were on board and all agreed 100 percent. None of them are Mormon—I'm one of the only ones in the whole music Utah scene out of hundreds of people.
In Salt Lake City, to what extent is the church's presence felt?
Put it this way, there's a long shadow cast. However, there's a huge counterculture in Salt Lake, and Mormons are actually in the minority in Salt Lake City. There's this amazing music scene, art scene, food scene. There's actually a huge LGBTQI community—it's considered one of the most LGBTQI-friendly and positive places to live. It's a fascinating place to live because of all these weird tensions, but when I first moved here 15 years ago, it was much more bipolar. And it still is bipolar, with the church on one side and counterculture on the other, and there's very few bridges. The position I find myself in isn't that comfortable all the time, because I have to create my own path. I'm just making it up, but there have been some more bridges and more openness as years go by and even with the LBGTQI community, there have been some bridges.
The church was actually behind a non-discrimination policy against LGBTQ people for housing and employment. And a lobbyist from the church was just invited to become the head of Affirmation, that LGBTQI support group I was talking about, which is a huge deal, to have someone who is so involved in the church and still a church member being on that board. He has talked about this change of heart in dealing with LGBTQI leaders over the years, and how gracious they are and how compassionate and patient, and how it changed his mind over this issue. Things like that are happening, and so I guess one way to look at it is that in the middle of a crisis, there's also an opportunity for change, because things have come to a head so terribly that it can be a catalyst for people to take action.
When will the accompanying video be ready, are you working on that at the moment and what are your hopes once it has been released?
The video is being filmed by this super-legit film crew from LA; we're leaving Psycho Las Vegas a day early to be part of the shooting. It's supposed to come out the first week of September, and my vision for it is to stab people in the heart. My vision is for this to be spread far and wide, and I would like thousands and thousands of people to see the video and I want it to be comforting for people who have been hurting and feeling alone, whether they are gay or whether they are Mormon, whether they are not Mormon. I want it to be a song that reaches people and makes them feel the way I do. I want it to be a tool for outreach, we're going to have a suicide hotline at the end of the video. I'd like it to open a dialogue. I'd like for more people to feel that they can speak up.
If anything in this article has affected you, SubRosa are working with The Trevor Project. Their trained counselors are here to support you 24/7.
If you are a young person in crisis, feeling suicidal, or in need of a safe and judgment-free place to talk, call the Trevor Lifeline now at .
Louise Brown is on Twitter.
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I'm making a 4th album of songs I have written during my travels in the last two years.
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I've written a bunch of songs while traveling around the southwest playing shows. I am now trying to record these songs for a new album so I can share them with you. The funds raised for this project will help me cover the cost of the musicians, the studio engineer, the graphic artist, and the printing of the CD. By helping with pre-ordering a CD it allows me to stay completely independent of signing with a label or having to use high interest rate credit cards.
for a donation of $10, you get a digital download of the album!
For a donation of $15, I will mail you a copy of the new CD with a hand written thank you letter!
For a $20 donation I will Send you the new CD with a hand written letter and also a hand drawn picture.
This one is my favorite...For a donation of $30, I will mail both you and a friend of yours a copy of the new CD along with a hand written letter and drawing. The letter to your friend will be about how you're amazing and kind and how you picked them out of all their friends to receive this special CD and cool drawing.
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text:
Q: Query a collection with a specific property that has an array inside I have a collection named "categories". I want to be able to find one that has title "Juices". After targeting Juices I would like to be able to see all the items inside of it.
{
    "_id": "xibspjSNQLJKurHoT",
    "title": "Juices",
    "description": "all types of juices",
    "items": [
        {
            "title": "Apple Juice",
            "description": "Made with apples",
            "healthy": true
        },
        {
            "title": "Orange Juice",
            "description": "Made with oranges",
            "healthy": true
        }
    ],
    "author": "9MJh7d4ELJ9guChvs",
    "createdAt": ISODate("2016-01-09T05:03:49.681Z")
},
{
    "_id": "xibspjSNQLJKurHoT",
    "title": "Meats",
    "description": "beef",
    "items": [
        {
            "title": "Chicken",
            "description": "Made with chicken",
            "healthy": true
        }
    ],
"author": "9MJh7d4ELJ9guChvs",
"createdAt": ISODate("2016-01-09T05:03:49.681Z")

}
The result I would like to see is something like this
            {
                "title": "Apple Juice",
                "description": "Made with apples",
                "healthy": true
            },
            {
                "title": "Orange Juice",
                "description": "Made with oranges",
                "healthy": true
            }

A: This is what gave me the results I wanted in case someone in the future looking for something similar to this.
    var Juices = db.Categories.findOne({title: "Juices"});
    var items = Juices.items // gives you the results of
[
    {
        "title": "Apple Juice",
        "description": "Made with apples",
        "healthy": true
    },
    {
        "title": "Orange Juice",
        "description": "Made with oranges",
        "healthy": true
    }
]

if someone knows a better way I'm happy to hear it (well.. see it)

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You are here: Home / New Releases / New releases 9/6/16
New releases 9/6/16
All the Way (LBJ biopic/drama, Bryan Cranston. Rotten Tomatoes: 87%. Metacritic: 78. From Neil Genzlinger's New York Times TV review: "Bryan Cranston brings his Tony Award-winning interpretation of President Lyndon B. Johnson to television on Saturday night in an adaptation of the Robert Schenkkan play 'All the Way,' and it's still quite a sight to behold, just as it was on Broadway in 2014. Nothing beats witnessing this kind of larger-than-life portrayal onstage, of course. But the television version, presented by HBO, offers plenty of rewards, allowing Mr. Cranston to work the close-ups and liberating him from the confines of a theater set. In his hands, this accidental president comes across as an amazing bundle of contradictions, someone who seems at once too vulgar for the job and just right for it." Read more…)
The Meddler (crime/drama, Susan Sarandon. Rotten Tomatoes: 84%. Metacritic: 68. A New York Times Critic's Pick. From Manohla Dargis' Times review: "The first time that Marnie Minervini opens her mouth in 'The Meddler,' you may wish it were the last. One half of an insistently winning, hopelessly irresistible mother-daughter duet, this buttinsky New Jersey widow [Susan Sarandon] puts the 'awl' into call and the 'awk' into talk and works both your nerves and ears as she does. Having recently moved to Los Angeles, Marnie has turned her cellphone into an umbilical cord that keeps her hooked to her daughter, Lori [Rose Byrne]. 'The Meddler' is a tear-drizzled comedy, but I understand if it sounds like a horror movie." Read more…)
A Bigger Splash (romance/drama, Tilda Swinton. Rotten Tomatoes: 90%. Metacritic: 74. A New York Times Critic's Pick. From Manohla Dargis' Times review: "The cinema of seduction doesn't get much more overheated than 'A Bigger Splash,' an Italian come-on that doesn't just want to amuse you, but also to pour you a Negroni before taking you for a midnight spin with the top down. Set on an Italian island slithering with snakes and beautiful people, the movie is something of a reluctant thriller about a rock star, her current lover, her former lover and a pretty young thing. Bad things happen, because, you know, life is pain — in the meantime, though, do enjoy the magnificent digs, the designer threads and the frolicking nude stars." Read more…)
Money Monster (thriller, Julia Roberts. Rotten Tomatoes: 58%. Metacritic: 55. From A.O. Scott's New York Times review: "'Money Monster' begins with a jolt of satire, proceeds through a maze of beat-the-clock exposition and lands on a surprisingly gentle, sentimental note. Along the way, this speedy, self-assured thriller, nimbly directed by Jodie Foster rom a packed script by Jamie Linden, Alan DiFiore and Jim Kouf, looses bullhorn blasts of topical outrage on matters of grave public concern." Read more…)
The People V. O.J. Simpson (courtroom drama miniseries, Cuba Gooding Jr.. Rotten Tomatoes: 97%. Metacritic: 90. From James Poniewozik's New York Times TV review: "On June 12, 1994, Nicole Brown Simpson and Ronald L. Goldman were brutally murdered outside Ms. Simpson's Los Angeles home. In the trial that followed, argues 'The People V. O.J. Simpson: American Crime Story,' our current social conflicts and media culture were born. The 10-episode series, starting Tuesday on FX, looks at that case from two decades ago and sees today an embryo. The power, and the competing claims, of identity politics. The marathon news stories packaged as entertainments. Above all, the idea that black and white Americans can look at precisely the same scene and see entirely different realities. The show acquits itself well." Read more…)
Now You See Me 2 (mystery/action, Jesse Eisenberg. Rotten Tomatoes: 34%. Metacritic: 46. From Jeannette Catsoulis' New York Times review: "The main sleight-of-hand at play in the illusion-themed sequel, 'Now You See Me 2,' will be convincing audiences that a single oddball idea — and four bickering, bragging leads — can support a successful franchise. And while the first movie had a certain goofy charm, its appeal barely stretched to feature length. This time the director, Louis Leterrier, has been replaced by Jon M. Chu, who, with 'G.I. Joe: Retaliation' [2013], has proved himself more than comfortable with noise and nonsense." Read more…)
Love & Friendship (period romance, Kate Beckinsdale. Rotten Tomatoes: 98%. Metacritic: 87. A New York Times Critic's Pick. From A.O. Scott's Times review: "In the past quarter-century or so, there have been too many Jane Austen movies and too few Whit Stillman movies. I refrained from starting that sentence with 'It is a truth universally acknowledged,' because it isn't, and also because that would have been too obvious a way of calling attention to the Austen glut and its attendant clichés. I'm happy to report, in any case, that the release of 'Love & Friendship' mitigates both the shortage and the surfeit. It's the Whit Stillman movie that some of us have been waiting a long time for, and also a Jane Austen movie that goes some way toward correcting the record of dull and dutiful cinematic Janeism.' Read more…)
Tale of Tales (fantasy, John C. Reilly. Rotten Tomatoes: 82%. Metacritic: 72. A New York Times Critic's Pick. From Jeannette Catsoulis' Times review: "Strip away the smatterings of sex and globs of gore, and children would really get a kick out of 'Tale of Tales,' Matteo Garrone's colorful and kinky exploration of what women want. And what men will do to give it to them. So it's a shame that, given the prevalence of blood and bosoms, the movie's fairy-tale familiars [among them an imperiled princess, an ogre and two ugly sisters] are rendered off-limits to young eyes." Read more…)
The Ones Below (critically acclaimed horror/thriller, Clémence Poésy. Rotten Tomatoes: 71%. Metacritic: 63. From Andy Webster's New York Times review: "There's much to admire in the thriller 'The Ones Below.' Like most effective suspense films or horror movies, it is grounded in a potent subtext, in this case childbirth and its stresses on parents. And the director, David Farr, a former associate director for the Royal Shakespeare Company making his feature debut, tightens the tension with almost clinical precision." Read more…)
Genius (period drama, Colin Firth. Rotten Tomatoes: 48%. Metacritic: 56. From A.O. Scott's New York Times review: "Ostensibly a tale of heroic literary creation — of the volatile collaboration between an undisciplined author and his discerning editor — 'Genius' is a dress-up box full of second- and thirdhand notions. Set mainly in a picturesquely brown and smoky Manhattan in the 1930s, it gives the buddy-movie treatment to that wild-man novelist Thomas Wolfe and his buttoned-up red-penciler Maxwell Perkins." Read more…)
New Foreign
Neon Bull (Brazil, drama, Juliano Cazarré. Rotten Tomatoes: 90%. Metacritic: 80. A New York Times Critic's Pick. From Stephen Holden's Times review: "In some ways, 'Neon Bull,' the astonishing second feature by the Brazilian documentarian director Gabriel Mascaro, is a movie about animal smells. An intoxicating reflection on the interconnection of taste, scent, instinct and desire, the film, gorgeously photographed by Diego Garci ['Cemetery of Splendour'], immerses you in the intensely pungent world of vaquejada, a rodeo sport popular in northeastern Brazil." Read more…)
From Afar (Colombia, psychological drama, Alfredo Castro. Rotten Tomatoes: 81%. Metacritic: 73. A New York Times Critic's Pick. From Stephen Holden's Times review: "The term 'chicken hawk,' applied to older gay men who seek sexual favors from boys in their late teens and early 20s, isn't heard much nowadays, nor is 'rough trade' used anymore to describe the street youths the men pay for play. But in 'From Afar,' those labels apply to Armando [the brilliant 60-year-old Chilean star Alfredo Castro], a dead-eyed dental prosthetist living in Caracas, Venezuela, and to the hostile young roustabouts he picks up on a corner. The masterly feature debut of the Venezuelan filmmaker Lorenzo Vigas, the movie looks at the world through the icy stare of Armando, who is first seen cruising and picking out his prey." Read more…)
The Old Gun (France, 1976, World War II drama, Philippe Noiret. From an unsigned 1976 New York Times review [requires log-in]: "In 'The Old Gun,' a simple and possibly effective story has been ruined by mass of directional and acting self-indulgence. A French film, which opened yesterday at the Coronet Theater. It is set in the last months of the German occupation of France. A doctor in a provincial hospital, a comfortable family man whose aid to the Resistance is a matter of careful balancing, turns into a one-man death squad after a group of drunken and demoralized German soldiers murders his wife and daughter." Read more…)
New British
The Key (1958, wartime drama directed by Carol Reed, William Holden. From Bosley Crowther's 1958 New York Times review [requires log-in]: "This is the picture's one weakness—this murkiness in the heroine—for otherwise it is a thoroughly brilliant blending of vivid war action and generally poignant romance. Carol Reed, who directed, has got the color, excitement and techniques of the work of rescue tugs in the Western Approaches as keenly as the action of destroyers was got in Noël Coward's 'In Which We Serve.' The sea, the tugs, the crippled vessels and the lurking U-boats are honestly seen through Oswald Morris' bobbing cameras in ominous blacks, whites and grays. And the crackling drama in the headquarters office is reproduced realistically." Read more…)
What Happened, Miss Simone? (music bio, race, cultural/political history. Rotten Tomatoes: 85%. Metacritic: 75. From Manohla Dargis' new York Times review: "Partway through 'What Happened, Miss Simone?,' an often electric, bracingly urgent documentary on the singer-musician Nina Simone, we reach that catastrophic year 1968, and the assassination of the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. On screen, photographs of other murdered black men flicker past — Malcolm X, the civil rights activist Medgar Evers and the Black Panther Fred Hampton — followed by a photo of a young black mourner holding a sign that reads: 'You better kill all blacks.' I can't be the only American who will despair at the relevance of those words in 2015." Read more…)
Filed Under: New Releases Tagged With: 9/6/16, A Bigger splash, All the Way, From Afar, Genius, Money Monster, Neon Bull, New Releases, Now You See Me 2, Tale of Tales, The Key, The Meddler, The Old Gun, The Ones Below, The Prople V. O.J. Simpson, What Happened Miss Simone
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Apologeet.nl
Dr. Kent Hovind
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Evolution & Creation
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Part 2 – What's Known
Part 3 – Old Testament
Part 4 – Hard Questions
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Silly Christian Series
Episode 1-10
Who Made God?
Does God Excist?
Is God Love?
Why Do You Believe the Bible?
Doesn't the Bible Contradict Itself?
Written Years After
Genocide in the Bible
Homosexuality!
Religion Cause Wars
Episode 11-20
What is Sin Anyway?
Church Full of Hypocrites
Christianity is for Weak People
Scandals in Church
Christians are Anti-Vaxxers!
Against freedom of speech?
What is God Like?
Capitalism?
Canaanite Genocide?
Killing for God
Why Mission?
Tongues, a Good Sign?
Religion, War & Violence
Tongues a Good Sign?
Teleological
Argument from Change
Clarifying the Terms
Human or Not
Part 1 – Intro
Part 2 – History
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Not a Virus, but a Weakened Immune System, is the Greatest Threat to Public Health
Published: Oct 01 / 2021
Category: Corona, Education, Society
Tags: Corona, Covid-19, Ethics, Vaccination, Society, Vaccine, Trust
This article comes from: (https://www.hpdetijd.nl)
dr. Carla Peeters (https://www.hpdetijd.nl/auteurs/dr-carla-peeters/)
https://www.hpdetijd.nl/2021-09-09/niet-een-virus-maar-een-verzwakt-immuunsysteem-is-de-grootste-bedreiging-voor-de-volksgezondheid/
Translated by Jurgen Hofmann, 21-09-2021
Several scientific studies have now shown that immunity after a natural infection gives a better protection than immunity after Covid-19-vaccination. Natural immunity may well be necessary to build up full protection in the population, writes immunologist dr. Carla Peeters.
By now, the vulnerable and at-risk groups in most western countries have been vaccinated with one of the four 'Under Emergency Admission' (EUA) licensed Covid-19 vaccines. Remarkably, in the countries with the highest vaccination coverage (Israel1, Iceland2 and England3) high numbers of positive tests (also called 'infections',4) are detected. It also appears, contrary to expectations, that people, who have been vaccinated twice, can be tested positive, can carry a high viral load. The can also possibly transmit the virus5 and end up in hospital6 themselves. The Israeli doctor Kobi Havi indicates on Channel 13 News that 85 to 90 % of seriously ill people in hospital are fully vaccinated. The effectiveness of vaccinations appears to be declining or disappearing. The 'one size fits all' approach can become a dead-end when the current one-sided strategy on one virus is anxiously continued.
In England, several immunologists are speaking out about the danger of a weakened immune system in the population, increasing the risk of infections and chronic diseases7. As a result of the lockdowns and the measures—such as keeping one and a half metre8 and the wearing of masks9—the immune system may have become less effective than before the pandemic. Children and adults have had less contact with other viruses and bacteria, so the immune system is less challenged and therefore less trained. In addition, factors such as altered diet and lifestyle, exposure to toxic substances through the frequent use of disinfectants and masks, and the increase in stress, play an important role. The use of medication has also increased during the corona pandemic. In the Netherlands, the CBS reports that the mental health is the lowest since the last 20 years during the first quarter of 2021. Nivel reports10 that the use of psychopharmaceuticals among young people, aged 15 to 24, increased in the first quarter in 2021. This was previously seen in England and the United States. From the psychoneuro-immunology it is known that, mental health plays an important role in a correct functioning immune system. The long duration of the measures can weaken the innate and adaptive immune system. (See box at the bottom of this page for explanation).
Well-functioning immune system crucial for health
The ability of the total immune system to function effectively and efficiently is crucial when the body is confronted with foreign substances, pathogens or, for example, cancer cells. It is equally important for a successful responds with a good immunity (protection) after vaccination.
Studies on the effectiveness of the influenza vaccine have already shown that older people cannot always respond effectively11 on the influenza vaccine. There is often an ageing immune system in older people. This is referred to as immunosenescence. This can result in that, despite vaccination, no good protection can be generated. A study, conducted in Norway, among one hundred deceased, frail, elderly shortly after a Covid-19 vaccination12 shows that the vaccine probably played a role in ten of the deceased and possibly in 26. In addition to old people, people with chronic diseases such as rheumatism, MS or those who had an organ transplantation may have a weakened immunity. A significant proportion of the people with chronic diseases, who participated in a Dutch research, turned out not to be able13, 14 to initiate a good antibody-response after two vaccinations, with one of the four Covid-19 vaccines. In the meantime a start has been made to offer this group a third vaccination. The results of this are not yet known. Because the immune system in this group does not function optimally and the same vaccine is used for this third injection, no great improvements are to be expected. The EMA and ECDC consider a third booster for healthy groups not to be urgently needed15.
A vaccination is not the same as good protection
Vaccination does not lead to good protection in every person. The majority of people who are currently vaccinated do not know whether they have built up antibodies and/or T-cell immunity This is not measured. It is also possible that a good immunity has already been built up without vaccination due to infection with the SARS-CoV-2 virus or an earlier infection (with a different Corona virus) that may or may not (asymptomatic) have been noticed16. A study, published in Nature, showed that, seventeen years after a natural infection with the SARS-CoV-1 virus, protective T-cell cross-reactivity for the SARS-CoV-2 virus could be demonstrated17. Fifteen scientific studies have now shown that immunity following natural infection gives a better protection18 than immunity after Covid-19-vaccination. An Israeli study showed a 27x less chance of reinfection and eight times less chance19 on hospitalisation compared to a vaccination.
Another recently published study20 also showed better immunity after natural infection. This may have to do with the fact that a natural infection trickers a broader immune response against a larger variety of viral coated proteins. A reduction in the efficacy of the innate and adaptive immune systems (see box) may also occur after an injection with one of the mRNA vaccines, which in turn leads to an increased risk of a more severe course of subsequent infections, as shown by a not yet peer-reviewed publication21 to which Dutch scientists also contributed.
Even before the Covid-19 vaccines were on the market, there was talk of a possible danger from Antibody Dependent Enhancement, a well-known phenomenon that was observed during the development of previous corona vaccines. This means that the body makes antibodies but is unable to neutralise the virus, whereby binding to the antibodies present in the cell, making it easier for the virus to replicate more easily. This is considered by various scientists as a possible explanation22 of the reinfections observed after vaccination. Research by the Mayo Clinic and Boston University shows that the efficacy decreased six months after the second injection with the Pfizer vaccine23 from 76% to 42% and with Moderna from 86% to 76%.
Although politicians around the world are talking about a third injection24 with the same vaccine, scientists in Iceland, England and the USA are reluctant to do so. Natural immunity may be needed to build up full protection in the population. The virus is now endemic and has a survival rate for people under 69 years of age25 99.410 % and in young people under 19 years of age more than 99,997 %. Moreover, there are no published scientific studies to show that a third vaccination actually adds value. Because of a shortage of vaccines, the WHO wants vaccines, released under the EUA, be made available for countries where hardly any vaccinations have been carried out so far
The antibodies induced by the vaccines appear to decrease after six months26. The fact that antibodies are not measurable does not always mean that people are no longer immune. It seems that after a natural infection, even though antibodies cannot be measured in the blood, antibody-producing B cells can still be detected in the bone marrow, which indicates the possibility of a rapid response reaction27 after reinfection. A survey among healthcare workers at the Cleveland clinic showed that vaccinating people who have already gone through a natural infection is nonsensical28.
Impending tsunami of hospital admissions is preventable
Some English immunologists have explained that the large increase in hospital admissions with RSV infections (common cold virus) in children in South Wales and Wales and Australia may be a result of lockdowns that have suppressed the normal function of the immune system. An increase of the RSV virus in children29 and people with fungus in their lungs in the ICU was reported in the Netherlands and Belgium30. These are infections that occur rarely and only in people with very weak immune systems. As the pressure increases through lockdowns, measures and large-scale vaccinations targeting a protein of the virus, the more likely it is that mutations will occur in the virus that could make it more dangerous for vulnerable groups. The immunity induced by the vaccine does not appear to be sufficiently effective to stop the mutant virus (Delta variant) in all people.
According to various experts, it is much better, now that a large part of society has already been vaccinated, like Denmark and Iceland, to lift all measures and let the virus wander. This would simultaneously build up natural immunity and strengthen the immune system. Vaccination-mandates with an experimental vaccine and accompanying passports cannot provide the broad protection for a strong immune system that is also effective against other viruses. Moreover, the knowledge about resilience of a natural immunity after an infection and/or through cross-reactivity with other (corona) viruses is undermined by a vaccination passport, certainly because it is now known from studies that have already shown that the risk of reinfection in vaccinated persons is greater. A focus on vaccinations with (in)direct obligations creates an unjustified and not scientifically account for the division in society. Above all, with the already shortage of healthcare staff, continuing along the same path is an invitation to an all-destroying tsunami. Not only by Covid-19, much more likely by other pathogens caused serious infections and sharp increase in cancer, cardiovascular disease and depression. The immune system is in fact also involved in the prevention of chronic diseases.
The government would do well to provide, at least children, the elderly, vulnerable groups of people on welfare, immigrants, and health care workers with a basic amount of vitamin D, which many scientific studies have shown that it strengthens the innate and adaptive immunity31. In this way, unnecessary illnesses and hospitalisations due to vitamin D deficiencies in healthcare can be prevented and better protection from infections or from vaccinations can be realised. It is always better to achieve a goal via multiple ways32.
Explanation innate and adaptive immune system
(Partly taken from an interview by Nieuws.nl33 with Dr. Carla Peeters).
The innate immune system is the first and not specific defence mechanism. It stops all potential pathogenic organisms. This system is formed by physical barriers, such as skin, saliva and mucous membranes. In many cases this is sufficient to stop a pathogen or foreign substance from entering the body. It is only switched over to the adaptive immune system when the pathogen is able to break through the first barrier. Cells from the innate immune system present the fragments of the pathogen or foreign substance to B cells and T cells of the adaptive immune system. The B cells ensure the release of antibodies. The antibodies formed move freely in the blood and can bind foreign pathogens. The pathogen-antibody complex is then broken down and eliminated by macrophages, among others. There are also T cells that directly aim on pathogens that have entered cells. They can help to destroy these infected cells and, on the other hand, reinforce the antibody response by B cells and at the same time keep them in check. The B and T cells can develop into memory cells and are activated much faster than with the first infection. The memory results in an increased response of antibodies, often with a stronger binding to a protein of the pathogen and a broader response against multiple fragments of the protein (epitope). This will increase the chance that the pathogen will be cleared effectively and quickly. You can see this in natural infections and also vaccinations. The chance that you will become ill by an infection decreases.
1. (https://ourworldindata.org/vaccination-israel-impact)
2. (https://www.covid.is/data)
3. (https://theexpose.uk/2021/07/29/87-percent-covid-deaths-are-vaccinated-people/)
4. (https://www.hpdetijd.nl/2020-12-08/waarom-het-nieuwe-massatestbeleid-niet-deugt/)
5. (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/covid-vaccine-delta-variant-infections-carry-same-virus-load-unvaccinated/)
6. (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387v1)
7. (https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1412658/Virus-fears-uk-winter-flu-immune-system-nhs)
8. (https://www.hpdetijd.nl/2020-07-05/stop-met-anderhalve-meter-afstand-en-het-verplicht-dragen-van-mondkapjes/)
9. (https://www.hpdetijd.nl/2021-06-13/waarom-de-mondkapjesplicht-per-direct-afgeschaft-moet-worden/)
10. (https://www.nivel.nl/nl/nieuws/toename-voorschrijven-psychofarmaca-aan-jongeren-tijdens-tweede-lockdown)
11. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3061971/pdf/nihms250)
12. (https://www.bmj.com/content/373/bmj.n1372)
13. (https://amazingerasmusmc.com/infectie/onderzoek-naar-covid-19-vaccins-bijkwetsbare-patienten-van-start/)
14. (https://www.skipr.nl/nieuws/veel-patienten-met-verzwakte-afweer-onbeschermd-door-vaccins/)
15. (https://www.skipr.nl/nieuws/ema-beoordeelt-aanvullende-prik-met-pfizer-vaccin/)
16. (https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563)
17. (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-020-2550-z)
18. (https://www.theblaze.com/op-ed/horowitz-15-studies-that-indicate-natural-immunity-from-prior-infection-is-more-robust-than-the-covid-vaccines#toggl)
19. (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1)
20. (https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital)
22. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8351274/)
23. (https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.06.21261707v1.full.pdf)
24. (https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e3.htm?s_cid=mm7034e3_w)
25. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7327471/pdf/main.pdf)
27. (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-021-03647-4)
29. (https://www.nieuwsblad.be/cnt/dmf20151127_01992372)
30. (https://www.fto.nu/nieuws/id220260-invasieve-schimmelinfecties-bij-influenza-en-covid-19.html)
32. (https://www.hpdetijd.nl/2020-08-11/9-manieren-om-corona-te-voorkomen/)
33. (https://nieuws.nl/lifestyle/20210429/het-versterken-van-het-immuunsysteem-is-veel-effectiever-in-het-voorkomen-van-infecties-dan-alle-maatregelen/)
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University of Abuja: Growth in the midst of ASUU strike and Covid-19
By Dave Omahi Gabriel
The NINE-month-old strike embarked upon by the Academic Staff Union of Universities (ASUU) and the outbreak of Covid-19 pandemic have seemingly connived to launch assaults on the country, especially the Nigerian universities. In all of these assaults, the students are the worst hit.
While the effect of Covid-19 is much mitigated and life seemed to have relatively come to normal, the strike has lingered for too long, leaving in its trail boredom, redundancy among students, dislocation, distortion of academic calendar and delay in admission of candidates into various universities now. It may be hard to recover from these effects, but it could be worse if the physical and infrastructural conditions of universities remain unchanging or even decrepit, without any improvement.
The management of any tertiary institution which appreciates the essence of building and maintenance of the physical and intellectual structures of their schools will not only be doing itself a great service, but helping to boost the morale and confidence of staff and students.
One University that can be said to understand this strategy and seems to be preparing itself along this line or refusing to have its development stagnated in the midst of the pandemic and ASUU strike, is the University of Abuja. Since March 2020, at the outset of the Covid-19 outbreak, the management of the University under the leadership of its Vice-Chancellor, Professor Abdul-Rasheed Na'Allah, has been carrying out impressive development in the institution, so much so that by the time students resume anytime soon, they will be noticing that the University they left many months ago, is now taking a new shape, wearing new looks. They will notice, for instance, that the University gate on the Main campus has been given a face lift; they will also notice that roads are being constructed and renovated.
In fact, as you go round the campuses today, you are likely to see several buildings dotting the landscape in attractive magnificence. Though a couple of the structures were said to have been started by the previous administration in the University, what is striking is that they are being completed and many new ones are being initiated by the present management of the University.
Using the Internally Generated Revenue (IGR) of the University, the administration of Professor Na'Allah started Academic Conference Centre, installation of street lights and completion of the Institute of Legislative Studies. Other works include Extension of Electricity from Academic Core to the Institute of Education, Access Road from Academic Core to Agric Farm and Staff Quarters (Appropriation). Through the determination and doggedness of this professor of Comparative Literature, the six primary projects abandoned by the Central Bank of Nigeria (CBN) in 2017 have been recently resuscitated and the contractors mobilised back to site. The projects include Postgraduate School, Postgraduate hostels, ICT centre, Faculty of Science, Faculty of Engineering and Medical Hostel, in Gwagwalada. Perhaps, by far the greater aspect of infrastructural developments are the projects coming through the interventions of TETFUND, an institution which the administration of Professor Na'Allah is leveraging his goodwill to heavily draw support from for the development of the institution. The new constructions that are taking off are the Faculty of Law 500 capacity lecture theatre, Academic Office complex for Faculty of Law, 150 capacity lecture theatre for Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Academic Staff Complex for Faculty of Environmental Sciences, Academic Office Complex for Faculty of Basic Clinical Science, and Academic Office Complex for Faculty of Agriculture, all of them advancing rapidly. Two constructions that have been completed are the Academic Staff Office for Faculty of Veterinary Medicine (Needs Assessment Fund), the Faculty of Management Science Phase II, Departmental Buildings for Faculty of Pharmaceuticals, Provision of farm house and other associated facilities at the Agriculture Teaching Farm.
Professor Na'Allah had hit the ground running shortly after he assumed office in July 2019, inspiring staff and students to work towards making the University great. Given the pace at which the management of the University under his leadership is moving, it is only a matter of time before we see more revolutionary changes from the man whose desire has been to make Uniabuja a world class university. And this vision is not far-fetched, because Na'Allah's legacy at Kwara State University (KWASU), Malete, where he directed the affairs of the institution for 10 years to an enviable point before being appointed to head Uniabuja, speaks for him.
However, commendable as these developments in the University are, so far, they will not immediately make the it an Oxford or Cambridge. But then again, you need to know where the University is coming from to appreciate the heights the Vice-Chancellor and the University management is probably taking the University.
Established in 1988, University of Abuja, started academic activities in 1990, and for so many years, it was cocooned in some blocks of building in Gwagwalada, making critics derogatively describe it as "glorified secondary school," until 2009, when it was relocated to the Main campus. Anyone who has followed the trajectory of the University will arguably submit that series of wrongheaded leadership is largely responsible for why the University is not so highly rated. It has been responsible for its slow pace of development, poor infrastructure, underdeveloped classes, sparsely constructed buildings with poor aesthetics, etc, all of which reasonably hurts your sense of decency and architectural aesthetics. Chairman of the TETFund Board of Trustees, Alhaji Kashim Ibrahim-Imam alluded to this poor status of the University when he toured it sometime in November 2020. "What I saw when I went round the faculties was not acceptable for a premier university," he said, adding that the University of Abuja should be much better than what it is now. And this is the truth. While we revile this present state, at least, we are excited about the heartwarming, promising changes taking place. They do point to the fact that if they continue this way, more good things will come. As a student of this University, I am feeling proud that soon I will be feeling unashamed of associating myself with it.
Of course, I see the quality of leadership that the present administration is providing in the University Abuja as desirable, and I think it should be encouraged by well-meaning Nigerians so that these development and changes can continue in this stream.
The supports from government now, particularly TETFUND, National Universities Commission (NUC) and other government bodies should be steadier and fuller. Even though all Nigerian public tertiary institutions should deserve serious supports from the goodwill of these bodies, all hands must be on deck to help change the status of the University of Abuja to the one that befits the only public university in the Federal Capital Territory and invariably into a world class status. Because you can't continue to have a University in the Federal Capital Territory with unbecoming looks and compares to everything that contemporary university should not be.
I like the confession of the Chairman, Board of Trustees of TETfund, Alhaji Ibrahim-Imam, the day he visited the school. "This is a unique University and I have already announced that we are very concerned about the status of this University and we are going to develop it to a world-class university. I am going to take a personal and particular, partial and bias interest in developing the University of Abuja," he had said.
• Dave Omahi Gabriel is a 300 level Law student, University of Abuja
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text:
ELECTRONIC ARTS: THE DONALD TRUMP OF GAMING - by Mr Biffo
Why was Visceral games closed down, and the Star Wars game it had been working on cancelled? Because apparently nobody wants to play no linear single-player games no more, brah! Except... the story is more complicated than that. Except... maybe it isn't. Maybe the story is very, very simple - but the reality of it is buried beneath half-truths and outright lies. Such is the world in 2017.
Quick recap on some things: a few years back, Disney bought LucasFilm. Almost immediately, Disney closed down LucasFilm's games division, LucasArts, cancelling the hotly-anticipated Star Wars game 1313.
Then EA announced it was taking over the Star Wars gaming brand, later announcing that Amy Hennig - the architect of Naughty Dog's Uncharted series - would be coming aboard to develop a brand new, story-based, Star Wars experience with EA's Visceral Games (the team behind the well-regarded Dead Space series).
In the meantime, EA had a big hit with Star Wars Battlefront.
Fast forward to earlier this year. EA cancels Hennig's Star Wars game, shuts down Visceral, and says that it's going to instead focus on "a broader experience that allows for more variety and player agency, leaning into the capabilities of our Frostbite engine and reimagining central elements of the game to give players a Star Wars adventure of greater depth and breadth to explore."
The Frostbite engine, in case you're unaware, is mostly used for EA's online multiplayer games, such as the Battlefield titles. "Agency" in case you're unaware, is a word that most of us never heard or used until about three years ago, when it became popular with games journo types, and it makes my skin crawl every time I hear it. Like when somebody shortens the word "radiators" to "rads". You know: in the way that somebody awful would do.
Anyway, cue outrage over what appears to be EA wanting to make multiplayer Star Wars games, purely so that it can rinse players dry with microtransactions.
However, according to Kotaku, there was more to the story. Except... then Star Wars Battlefront 2 arrived, loaded with microtransactions which made popular characters difficult to access without spending money. Cue outrage. Cue politicians getting involved. Cue EA removing microtransactions from Battlefront 2, after failing to convince players - via a widely reviled statement on Reddit - that the game was structured in this way to improve their experience.
The publicity over all of this has been a PR disaster for EA. Battlefront 2 - which should've been a guaranteed smash - has done worse than expected. Therefore, you'd expect EA to have learned its lesson and change course.
Apparently not now that we live in an era where nobody takes any degree of responsibility for their actions.
HENNIG WHICH WAY BUY LOOSE
The canned Visceral/Hennig title, codenamed Ragtag, was a "much more linear game, that people don't like as much today as they did five years ago or ten years ago," EA's Chief Financial Officer Blake Jorgensen told an audience of investors earlier this week.
More honestly, he went on to say that EA is forced to "cut the bridge when you realize can't really make a lot of money on something".
Jorgensen assured investors that EA isn't giving up on microtransactions, and is continuing to monitor the Battlefront 2 issue, presumably to find ways to encourage players to spend money on top of the money they've already spent to play the game. If the company is forced to remove loot boxes - widely damned as a form of gambling - it would need to find "another economic model to try and make up for some of the economics you lose"
In short, EA continues to argue that the linear single-player experience is dead, as a way to justify its actions.
In one breath it tries to blame that on the changing tastes of the player. In the next, it appears to admit that it will no longer focus on linear games, simply because they don't make as much money. Furthermore, it's telling that these latest comments come from the company's Chief Financial Officer - rather than somebody with a creative background.
Reading between the lines, it all seems to be motivated by nothing less than greed.
Uncharted 4 has sold almost 10 million copies since it was released. Now imagine a game along the lines of Uncharted 4, but with the Star Wars brand attached, and as a multiformat release. You can, at a conservative estimate, at least triple those sales figures. It would, presumably, be wildly profitable - and that should be enough for most.
Unfortunately, it isn't enough for EA. It wants more. More, more, more, more, more, more. Money money money. Always sunny - in the rich boy's world!
SHELVE IT
Let's put aside the fact that I, entirely personally, would love a proper, full-blown, single-player, story-led, Star Wars game. Let's ignore that, for me, going on an adventure is the reason I love games, that I love the potential of games as a story-telling medium.
Let's shelve all that, yeah?
Because I am sick of this now. It's not that I feel sick that they're depriving me - and something that millions of other Star Wars-loving gamers - of something we would, potentially, enjoy. I'm sick of them lying about their reasons for doing it. I'm disgusted that they're too lazy to even lie convincingly, and seem unable to hide their true, covetous, motives. It's profoundly insulting, and stokes the same embers of rage in me as when the likes of Trump do it.
I mean, look at the comments beneath any Trump tweet, and you'll see that he doesn't have to convince all of us that he's doing a good job; he just has to convince those who are naive or blinkered or angry enough to believe it. Similarly, EA is no longer making games for everyone; just those weak or wealthy enough to keep spending money after they've already paid for a game. The rest of us can go swing in the breeze.
What I really hate, is how this changes the games industry. When I started playing games... yes, it was still an industry, but it felt motivated by creativity and passion. It was an industry driven by those who could get the most out of the technology, to created wholly original experiences. They did it for the love. Not to get rich.
Now we get annual instalments of guaranteed hit franchises. We get loot crates. We get half the game hidden behind a paywall. We get expensive "season passes" which more often than not feel as if content that should've been included is deliberately being held back, dangled as a carrot to make players spend even more money.
As I'm getting older, I'm really starting to believe Capitalism is ruining the world. I mean, let's face it... without Capitalism there's no way we'd have that racist, idiot, pig in the White House. Without Capitalism video games wouldn't be created in a way that screws us over. It feels to me as if Capitalism is fighting to keep its grip on the world... except it's going to take all of us down with it when it goes.
MARX BROTHER
I mean, don't get me wrong; I'm not Karl Marx. I don't see a viable alternative right now. Communism? Yeah, right. 'Cos that seems always seems to work out great.
But we've been raised to believe - brainwashed, basically - that the Capitalist economic model of society is the one that is right and proper, when it's clear to anybody with any degree of compassion and empathy that it's motivated by selfishness. It's an engine that exists purely to keep itself running. We are but cogs, there to facilitate the Caribbean yacht holidays and branded private jets of the few.
I despair at how our society attempts to lie to us, how it dresses up the pursuit of profit for the privileged few as somehow beneficial to all of us. And I hate that EA is symptomatic of that with its hollow epithets about how the intent behind its paywall was "to provide players with a sense of pride and accomplishment for unlocking different heroes."
The fact that its statement has become the most hated in Reddit history, the fact that every time it talks about nobody wanting linear games, doesn't make a jot of difference. EA continues to be utterly blinded by its pursuit of making as much money as possible, making games which benefit the privileged elite - those who can afford to spend a small fortune to get a "complete" game.
I hate how it hides this in plain site, and admits that it's already working on ways to continue exploiting players - albeit, going forward, in a way which doesn't backfire as such a PR disaster.
With this in mind, there's only one way to stop it happening. We have to show them that this model doesn't make money. We have to demonstrate that what we want to buy are the best games. That we do still want single-player experiences. That the multiplayer games we want to play don't require us to buy beyond the initial outlay. And we have to convince as many people as possible to join us.
The only language companies like EA understand is the language of money and profit. And the only way to stop this is by blocking that profit, being strong, and not caving when we're tempted by the promise of a new in-game hat. How's that for "agency", wankers?
Hello. I'm Mr Biffo. Do you enjoy the stuff I do? Yes? Then perhaps you might like to consider supporting me on Patreon, or with a PayPal donation (which you can send to digitiser2000@gmail.com).
It'd really help. You see, as a freelancer, money doesn't always flow freely, and it would benefit me enormously to have your support. My existing donors provide a financial safety net, and without them I'd have been howling into the abyss this past year. I can't thank them enough.
Furthermore, this site is entirely free to read - but back me on Patreon and you'll not only be awarded with the satisfaction that you'll helping to keep Digitiser2000 (and me) independent and alive, but also supporting my other projects, such as my funn-ee Twitter account Memory Assistant, and occasional YouTube videos.
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Anyway. Thanks. Love you loads! Bye! Bye now. See you later, yeah? Okay, bye.
The irony of Mr Biffo saying "capitalism is bad, mmkay?" and then asking for money has not been missed.
Jareth Smith
Mr. Biffo isn't using microtransactions and is also creating unique content, as opposed to stale tripe which is simply there force gullible morons into purchasing nonsense.
Unfortunately, I live in a capitalist society, and I can't pay my mortgage on good intentions.
Apparently some landlords accept sexual favours... er... so you could move?
combat_honey
He's also probably wearing *clothes* produced under capitalism too, the vile hypocrite.
Strip, Biffo, strip!
I don't strip for anything less than 80p.
Iwanttoopenmrbiffo'slootbox
£0.81p donation coming up!
It's like with the majority of massive blockbuster movies - Transformers etc. - AAA games are largely cynical, money-making exercises. In this era of gaming, where the self-proclaimed "true gamers" have convinced themselves graphics are all that matter, it's no surprise the way has been paved for generic titles which look great but are insipid and banal.
To be fair to EA, it did support the excellent indie title Unravel, and the likes of Ubisoft (much maligned by the toxic gaming community) has also delivered gems such as CHILD of LIGHT and Valiant Hearts. It's easy to blame these developers, but they're there to make money and when a horde of impossibly belligerent, spoilt brats ramping across the online community, complaining away, sending volatile death threats, yet still purchasing the very things they're so obnoxiously lambasting... well, the devs are going to keep on churning this crap out.
If, like me, you're sick of the embarrassing world of mainstream gaming, then the indie scene is right there as the answer, along with Nintendo's consistently outstanding creative efforts. However, at the forefront is that vibrant and wonderful indie scene, which has produced so many works of genius in recent years. We just need the rest of the, frankly idiotic, gaming community to catch up and realise it's not all about HD graphics, specs, and comparing screenshots of games across the PS4, PC, Xbox One, and Switch. It's about how good the game is, which isn't going to happen when devs are putting so much effort into crafting beautiful looking games at the detriment of other areas.
PeskyFletch
Xbone graphics sux, bro, shuddent compare to awesome ps4
Woteva, blud, damn noobie scum!!! Gaystation 4 sux balls!!!! LOL! ROFLMAO!
Bilstar
Yup. Yup that, sir. All of that. Yup.
Psy-Q link
Very timely, only this week I've been reading a lot of Jeff Vogel's blog posts (from Spiderweb Software) and here is one husband-and-wife team that still does this thing we call "game development" with love and passion. You don't have to like his games because of it, but you might.
I've largely written off the big publishers. They are deeply toxic. Indie and smaller studios is where it's at, all you have to do is sift through all the shite to find the gems.
EA - have a market rife with piracy, preowned, sales, enormous overheads etc. to go along with your share holders and partners - your boss, their boss.... imagine the pressure on these games to perform - the cost of failure.
Gamers don't want to pay £80 for a game - not by and large - and certainly not upfront but with the raise in dev costs, wages, marketing... hell, every overhead only goes up, what are you to do?
EA got their fingers burned on this but their problem is real - how do you make money out of this industry when games have never cost more to make and, all things considered, never been so cheap?
Perhaps you'd rather spend £80 on a game than play a game with in game purchases?
Good for you, you're earning! But what if you didn't want to pay it and just waited for the preowned stuff, sales etc.... that's not paying the bills at EA.
Apple talked about making their products sticky - once you're firmly under their wing then it's difficult to escape - all your passwords, iTunes songs, games and so on are made so easy for you so long as you use their products - it's too much hassle to ever leave right?
Any game where you've invested heavily in upgrades for multi-player has a similar effect - you've spent time and money and got yourself in a clan or whatever and there's no way you're trading this one in... until the new one.
I think accusing EA of being greedy is unfair - their games are among the most successful, year-on-year, and that means that people like what they do. They need to explore more ways of making money and how they grow their business - same as any other - and in-game stuff, loot boxes are one way they can do it.
Next Christmas, if FIFA cost £80 and PES cost £50 then it'd be a record year for Konami's beta brand.
Cut costs? Cos nobody cares about the graphics anyway yeah?
Don't stick Ronaldo on the cover, cut the amount of car manufacturers back - tell Disney to shove Star Wars up Activision?
I mean, what are they to do? Tell their investors that it's been another poor year.... don't worry, though, because we're offering better value than ever and the gamers love us!
FIFA, Need for Speed are, ironically, fairly unique products - blockbuster games like that are special because they bring in the money as regular as clockwork. Mario, Zelda, Halo, Uncharted... they make a lot but not as regularly.
Okay so how do you make more money out of them? Toys.... T-shirts.... nah, not enough.... erm.... people are used to in app purchases now from their iPads and phones - look at what some of these FREE IOS games are doing... JESUS CHRIST! Yep, do that.
The problem here is that, like the young bull, they ran down to shag one of the cows - not like the old bull that walked down to shag them all - RIP Steve Jobs.
Col. Asdasd
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qq6HcKj59Q
The argument that games have become too expensive to make without MTs is coming under increasing scrutiny. This video uses data from the big 3 publishers some interesting points as to why that might be more a convenient excuse than a reflection of the economic realities for these companies.
I dunno, man - I know that turning a profit is not enough. If a business makes the same amount of net that it did the previous year that means that it's down. The only way is up and that can't be easy to pull off every year.
No one is forcing them to increase production values to ridiculous levels so that they need teams of hundreds working for years on a game. Instead they could focus on making games with good gameplay, those still sell by the truckload as the Nintendo Switch demonstrates.
I am seriously biased against these monstrously large megacorporations creating the same game over and over again with better graphics, so of course I'd say that and I don't think I can be convinced of the necessity of a many-headed creativity-destroying monster like EA.
And when they have a truly enjoyable game on their hands like Titanfall 2 they mess up the marketing for it so hard that you have to worry about the team behind it.
I'd hope all these really talented people just left those megacorporations and tried something of smaller scale, smaller risk but with real love and passion. And no shareholders to please.
Spiney O'Sullivan
Passion is great, and EA does suck, but we shouldn't act like it's easy for talented people to just leave and go full-time indie. A lot of those people like eating regular meals and not living out of their cars, which is fair enough, really.
Switchophancy
The games on Nintendo Switch are made by massive teams with astronomical budgets
Unbiased commenter
Nonsense, all Nintendo products are made out of pure love and have no commercial considerations at all. Nintendo is not a company so much as a charity that gives fun to all. It is definitely not a big corporation that has parlayed a period of being utterly battered for years and forced into a massive strategic turnaround into some kind of cult of personality.
But that's just my unbiased opinion.
Sure but Mario and Call of Duty are very different products.
Production values are expected and the demand for them is real - The Pro and X are not a best guess at what drives the industry.
I mean, I love graphics.... just played Uncharted 4 and loved every minute of it - would have less so if it didn't look so gorgeous.
I never claimed Nintendo does it all just for the love of gaming, but they have never let greed, microtransactions, loot crates or anything like that corrupt the vision of their games.
Their games come as full packages. You buy the game once for a flat price and even get entire characters and new weapons for free long after the game's hype has ended (Splatoon 2, ARMS, BotW are examples). MK8 on Wii U was one of the few titles (or the only one?) where they've even created pay-for DLC, and it's already included in the Deluxe version for Switch.
Also look at the team sizes, Nintendo's teams are much smaller than the amorphous mass of bodies that creates games for EA and such.
Not saying they're a charity, but their mindest in creating games is completely different from the one shown by the big boys with the big balls, and they managed to stay afloat just fine even when they were the underdogs without having to resort to player-milking.
Nintendo make money on everything - even games they have nothing to do with. EA have no such luxury.
You know how, as a premium paying customer, that when you buy Mario Run for your iPhone that you can't play it on a plane, for example. And have you seen their subscription model? Unlike Sony and MS, they don't even let you keep the games!
And how many times have you bought those games? Wii, Wii U virtual console stuff - DS shop..... All gone and you start again. I can redownload stuff I bought on my 360 years ago with no trouble at all - Nintendo are dirty too!
Troupe86
EA, amongst other big house publishers, are actually spending less on game development now than they did in 2007. In addition, they are utilising a 'lootbox'/microtransaction style meta-economy to maximise profit for shareholders to the detriment of their game-buying audience. Oh, and they are also taking advantage of tax loopholes and government funding to also rake in more profit than ever, despite spending less on game development [source: https://youtu.be/SFKnv1YzI3k].
EA's excuses are fallacious. They are poorly masking their greed and desire for more money; they foolishly thought that they could get away with the predatory financial model they are employing and it has backfired.
Fuck them, and fuck the other big publishing houses that try this slimy shite.
You sound on the fence....
But seriously, we all get that they have to make money and see continual growth - there's no argument about that, right?
It's good that this approach has backfired for them but one way or another they'll get their pound of flesh - they have no choice.
Random Ex-Reviewer
I agree that EA exist to make money and expand their market share. They are in continual competition with other businesses, so they need to tip towards growth. How they choose to do that, however, is partially within their control. You don't need microtransactions to cover the budget, not with a sure thing like Fifa or Star Wars. You don't have to buy up and ruin smaller studios.in your expansion drive. You don't need to let your execs steer you away from single player games and towards multiplayer-only releases.
This is pure greed and stupidity, an example of a company putting short term expansion before its long term health. Good management will do more than just meet the shareholders needs for increased returns - it will temper those needs by explaining clearly and concisely why doing stupid (albeit initially lucrative) shit is bad for the company in the long run. EA doesn't appear to have have good management, so we are where we are.
It's getting a little hard to keep track of who's Donald Trump in these videogame industry analogies! I could have sworn only a few months ago it was the ravening hordes of entitled whining gamers, not the sinister corpos ripping them off.
Hard to disagree with anything you've written though. I think the turning point was Mass Effect 3, where EA realised (and made the rest of the industry aware) the opportunity adopting revenue-squeezing tricks from the f2p markets in mobile and MMO gaming represented. In a few short years they rearranged their whole philosophy of business from making money in order to create games to creating games in order to make money.
The result is that games are now a service, not a medium. Depressing, but in an inevitable sort of way that speaks to the behaviour of markets as you touched on in your article. Expect other forms of consumer entertainment such as film, TV and music to take notice in the coming years.
I think a significant part of the failure of Visceral's singleplayer Star Wars game was the fact that Amy Hennig refused to make an open world game in the GTA, Assassin's Creed, or Zelda mould (which is what Visceral were prototyping before her involvement) and instead insisted on making a story-heavy setpiece-filled cover shooter like Uncharted (and like also-cancelled Star Wars 1313 was).
These sorts of games can generally be adulterated by extra payment systems, either by an entirely separate online mode (GTA) or by selling cosmetic items (AC, and actually Zelda by manner of Amibos), without doing much harm to the core game.
Also, the bit in the Kotaku story that stuck with me was
"Visceral employees recalled getting constant questions from EA executives like Jade Raymond about what Ragtag's big innovation was. The thought was that in order to compete with the likes of Uncharted 4, Visceral's game needed to have a strong hook."
And that's a very sensible question to be asking. Would people genuinely want a weak cover version of another game, just with Star Wars art plastered all over it?
Brancotoflord
Yes. Yes they would.
Psy-Q
Isn't Battlefield just a Star Wars reskin of Battlefront? Never played either, so genuinely don't know.
You could count the last 2 battlefront games as being weaker cover versions of another game, just with star wars art plastered over it.
Indeed you could, but since that other game is EA's own Battlefield, they can run with the "from the makers of..." angle.
Also, it's notable that the original faced criticism with regard to not having a good quality hook of its own, when initially reviewed. The sequel, at least, has the space combat bits.
The new mobile Animal Crossing was awful
Can you get in real-life debt to Tom Nook?
Clive Peppard
I hate EA and haven't bought a game from them in a long time, all the points about economics and profit/loss are reasonable - if you aren't earning you aren't working, but its how you do it that matters.
Take Frontier Studios, Elite was £20, the Horizons update was also £20 but added a lot to the game so ok we'll accept that when considering dev time and all the rest. But where do they go from there? The Elite store is rammed with vanity objects like paint jobs and body kits and whatever - they make no difference whatsoever to the game play but they're there if you want them.
I reckon I've spent another £20 since purchase on stuff like this, not because I felt compelled or thought I would gain an advantage, but because I love the game and don't mind throwing David Braben a couple of quid here or there if it helps him further develop the best game of my childhood into the best game of my adulthood.
Then there CD Projekt Red, Wither 3 DLC was often free and when it wasn't it was a whole new games worth of mission and stories for a fiver!!
There are ways, Its just EA has allowed its contempt and desire for a profit margin to overrule its basic human decency.
#BoycottEA
CD Projekt have the competitive advantage of being able to easily staff up with Poles ;)
I'm being glib, but a point repeatedly raised in stories about the fall of Visceral was how much more expensive, in the likes of wages necessary to cover local property rental prices, it was to run a studio in Silicon Valley than it was in Montreal.
CPRDER
Witcher 3's DLC was stuff removed from the main game and released as DLC mere days after the game's release to generate goodwill.
John Harvey-Jones
Well if you talk about capitalism and gaming, the people in charge are not EA.
It's you, and everyone else buying these games.
The economic term is "consumer sovereignty".
It is a highly competitive market for relatively low cost, non-essential goods with fairly low barriers to entry and an excess of supply.
A buyers market. Consumers choose what succeeds, what fails, what business models are profitable, what business models are not.
Battlefront 2 and COD will be big hits and sell a bucket load despite the negative PR.
COD WW2 has been absolutely flying off the shelves and sold double the number of copies of Infinite Warfare.
Watchdogs sold 4 million in the launch week.
Destiny's pre-orders alone were nearly 1.5 million.
Meanwhile Hellblade Sensua's Sacrifice turned a nice profit but shifted a relatively meagre 500k copies in 3 months despite being a much better game, half the price and having no shady business practises.
"Who is the Donald Trump in the video game industry?" I saw someone ask.
ALL OF YOU ARE.
Pablo Watsoni
No, YOU are!
That's only broadly true, though.
Let me give you an example - okay so you want to buy a shooting game because you like shooting stuff - Chances are, whatever you buy, you're dropping coins down one of the big boys holes.
Oh, you like racing cars? Football....
They've got it stitched up and we don't get 'real' options on everything; the buyer doesn't have the kind of control that you're suggesting.
Sir John Harvey-Jones
You do not have to buy the game. It is a luxury item.
It isn't food and water. You can go down the pub, buy a board game, rent a movie, get five months of Netflix, watch regular TV, download some pr0n, anything you like for £45.
Besides with such a glut of products on the market, there are always alternatives. If people actually rewarded those producing alternatives by actually buying their products, there would be even more of them as developers/publishers would be incentivised to produce more.
If you would rather buy the microtransaction riddled AAA product like Shadow of War over the cheaper AA, no microtransaction game like Hellblade: Senuas Sacrifice, then you are simply weighing up the options and buying what you consider to be the superior choice.
You, like everyone else, have voted in favour of that model and rewarded those who employ it. Your purchase is a vote that carries far more weight than hundreds of negative forum posts.
Talk is cheap, money slammed down on the counter is what matters.
If no one bought Battlefront 2 it would be a catastrophic financial disaster for EA. Gamers only have to refuse to purchase it once and I guarantee they will never use that model again.
Alas video gamers seem to have the mentality and consumer discernment levels of 10 year old children.
They have zero impulse control.
How many reading this post own or owned Shadow of War, No Mans Sky, Watchdogs, Destiny 1 or 2, Battlefront 1 or 2, or any COD game from the past 5 years.
Ok, now how many of you own Hellblade: Sensuas Sacrife?
Those numbers are damning testimony.
Game over boys and girls. Guilty as charged. You might as well get some custom made baseball caps with "Make Gaming Great Again" on them and start retweeting Peter Molyneux.
I admire your passion!
I dunno where you're going with the luxury item remark - I mean, sure, you can live without them but, fuck man, no one here wants to!
And you're right, if people didn't buy it then EA would have to have a drastic rethink. Except that people will buy it... millions of them.
So that's just unrealistic and where can go with that?
I read that EA u-turned after a phone call from big boss man at Disney.
Interesting right? I mean Disney don't muck about and you can bet they knew all about this way before any of us did - but they let it fly. Then, when the shit hit the fan, they come out like the good guys to save the day (brand reputation).
I've only owned No Man's Sky from your list. Only played it for about 30mins then thought F&^K THIS!
You know what the problem with Senua is? Name aside. It doesn't look very cool. I'm not saying it's not - I have no idea - but it fails almost immediately to make me want in. I mean the marketing for it is a load of dark images and some young lady with blue all over her face. It's hardly engaging... well, not for me it isn't.
But you know something, on the strength of your convictions, if I ever get the chance to play it - demo or a mate - I'll check it out.
I take comfort that no matter how much the videogame industry changes there is, and always has been, one constant - EA are a nasty bunch of money grabbing gits.
Dunc
This line that players don't want linear games reminds me of a few years ago when all the big publishers started bleating about how no one wants single player despite loads of hugely successful single player only games being out and how capcom decided that survival horror was dead when it turned resi evil into and action game. In all these cases the execs just looked at some charts and saw COD was making more money than their games so dropped everything to chase that market. Sadly with shareholders calling the shots this is always the decisions you'll see being made in these big companies as it's not enough to turn a profit, you have to make more profit than the year before.
Luckily we have a resurgent indie market full of people taking risks and it just takes one of those to be a massive success to shake up the formula every now and then.
Let's not deify the indie scene too much. Every so often we get an absolute gem, but the Steam shovelware catalogue (or whatever Greenlight is called now) drowns out a lot of quality titles with either cynical asset flips or generic "look at this 8-bit style copy of an old game I made" stuff. And then there's the terrifying cynicism of the amount of smaller pay-to-win titles on the App Store.
These markets need far better curation, or a lot of decent indies will drown under a tide of dreck.
Ben Kuchera
If only there was someone who could weed through all those indie titles for us.
Someone who could test them out and then tell us which ones are gems and which ones are asset-flipping trash.
They could like put their findings in a magazine or on a website and then we could go there and immediately know which ones to spend our money on.
No longer would really good titles from up-and-coming talent be overlooked and lost in a sea of dross.
We used to have such people. Back in my day any Tom, Richard or Harry could make a game and get it on the shelves of WH Smith for £2.99.
Fortunately we had people scouring through them all and writing up reports in magazines.
They were called "games journalists".
Now granted they were so busy testing and rating the products that they didn't have time for the far more important tasks like writing political commentary on the US President or telling me how gamers are racist because Dizzy is always white where as most eggs in real life are brown.
We've clearly made a lot of progress since the dark days of the 80's.
Right On!!!!111!!!!!!
I'll tell you what annoys me - it's when people say 'slaw' instead of coleslaw. That irritates the hell out of me for some reason.
Damn straight. If it has cabbage in it it's coleslaw.
I would lock up anyone who has ever uttered the words spag bol.
Nothing like that bothers me and I just attach it to my mental dossier about the character of the 'offending' person.
I hate it when people get stuff wrong because I'm not sure if it's rude or not for me to tell them - it's like this stressful little thing...
EXAMPLE - a friend of mine refers to coleslaw as coldslaw - an easy mistake and one that he probably should have been corrected on years ago but it must have slipped through the net or whatever.
So what am I to do? I can't reprimand him there and then, surely? In all likelihood we're about to eat something and nobody wants to ruin a meal with awkwardness. BUT, even weirder to just bring it up out of the blue, right?
Manners Mikelson
Nerxt time he brings it up you have to deftly and genially pretend it's the first time you noticed the error and have a gentle chuckle about it, then offer a similar (possibly fictitious) example from your life - maybe you used to say 'penultimate' instead of 'ultimate' or something. Then he can have a little chuckle. No awkwardness, just a couple of great pals having a chat and a burger
Thankin' you, Manners! I know I should probably say something but...
Isn't it "coleslaw" ?
One of my friends persists in pronouncing 'trilogy' as 'triology'. Every time I happens I think of saying something, but never have...
Tinker's Cuss
Some very interesting thoughts there Mr B; my main takeaway:
"Plain site"? Good God man, does my £5 Patreon not cover the cost of a proof reader?
MrDrinks
The fact that the developers who made Titanfall 2 are now owned by EA makes me sad. Releasing such an amazing game that wasn't stuffed with micro-transactions and paid DLC at the same time as Battlefield (to inevitably "fail") now feels like a very calculated move.
Jack Cooper
No one put a gun to the head of consumers and made them buy utter derivative shady sh*te like Battlefield 1 instead of the fantastic and fair Titanfall 2.
Check out Metacritic.
Titanfall 2 has a higher average score than Battlefield 1 from both Critics and User reviews!!!!!!!
It is all right there in plain sight out in the open! Consumers had all the information they needed right there in their hands. Everyone was telling them that Titanfall 2 was the superior product. No excuses.
Yet gamers still went out and bought Battlefield.
You can't blame EA. If I were EA, I too would cancel Titanfall 3 and say to Respawn "get to work and make me some sh*te, the kids are lapping it up".
But, Jack, that's not the whole story!
Tell you what my problem with Titanfall is - and I only mention this because I'm probably not alone on this - mechs.
Not cool. To me anyway.
The bit in Battlefield 1 where you run around in that massive armour suit and take millions of bullets is basically the same only less believable!!!!!
Dangerous_Dave
If games cost too much to make these days, why not just cut those costs? Why do games need to be so expensive? There's a whole market just below the so-called AAA development cycle that are more affordable and (dare I say it) of a higher quality.
I've long stopped throwing my money at EA, Activision and Ubisoft for this very reason. I still buy first party Nintendo games and the occassional Sony exclusive, but most of my gaming budget is spent on much smaller games that I find to be more enjoyable, more rewarding and generally quite unique. Spelunky, Fez, Rocket League, Geometry Wars and Bit Trip Runner are among the best games of the past two decades, far exceeding anything the big three have churned out in that time.
I think the amount of money needed to make them look pretty is substantial - worth every penny, mind!
We're all glad that Odyssey and BOTW don't look like 64 and Ocarina, right?
All this corporate greed makes me think we're heading to video game crash 2.0.
Balaska
The original ideal of capitalism, that one party provides goods or services to another at a fair price, so that both parties prosper, has long been forgotten, You are right, this isn't capitalism, it is greed.


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Yo come here cuzzy, wah gwaan?
Lil mama get stupider, say she want all of me, that's a kowal me, what I'ma do with her?
Look in the skies, say, "God's great"
Uh, screamin', "God's great", made another mill, sayin', "God's grace"
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The ability to ask questions effectively is one of the most important skills in business as is the ability to actively listen.
Wide questions are to be used early in a meeting to learn as many unexpected facts as you can. Answers to wide questions can give you lots of nuggets to drill down into later in the meeting. But resist the temptation to seek clarification for a nuggets at that exact time or the "random walk" answer gets taken off course.