text:
On the alleged cultural superiority of the Chinese
[I wrote this post weeks ago, but never posted it. Perhaps now's a good time.]
Spend any significant amount of time in China and the title of this post will start to seem like an absurd claim. And it is absurd. But it's wrong in an interesting way.
Tens of millions of ethnic Chinese live in Southeast Asia. The higher the percentage of Chinese, the richer the SE Asian country. In addition, the ethnic Chinese tend to be much richer than the native population. This leads many to conclude that the Chinese culture is good at making money. And I think there is some truth in that, although government policies obviously also play a role.
But that's not cultural superiority, it's a cultural attribute. Thus one might say the Italian culture is good at making stylish furniture, or that the German culture is good at making excellent machines, or the French culture is good at producing post-modern philosophy. But no one would claim that these attributes make their cultures "superior" in any overall sense. (OK, Hitler would make that claim for the Germans, but you see my point.)
In the past when I've blogged on cultural differences I find that some people really get emotional. Liberals in particular seem to be as squeamish about culture at the Victorians were about sex. (Someone get the smelling salts if the usual suspects have fainted.) I find this odd, as when I was younger there was a big debate over culture vs genetics, sometimes dubbed "nature/nurture debate." And liberals seemed to take the nurture point of view. I guess things have changed.
I find that some liberals will go to rather absurd lengths to deny the obvious. In earlier comment sections the economic success of the Chinese in SE Asia was attributed to some sort of selection bias. Thus I was intrigued by this Lee Kuan Yew quotation provided in the new Coase/Wang book:
I had told Deng over dinner in 1978 in Singapore that we, the Singapore Chinese, were the descendents of landless peasants from Guangdong and Fujian in South China, whereas the scholars, mandarins, and literati stayed and left their progeny in China. There was nothing that Singapore had done that China could not do, and do better. He stayed silent then. When I read that he had told the Chinese people to do better than Singapore, I knew he had taken up the challenge I quietly tossed to him that night fourteen years earlier.
Note that there is selection bias in recent Singapore immigration, but this comment was made in 1978. So we are to believe that vast numbers of ethnic Chinese moved out of a small region on south China a few hundred years ago and scattered throughout SE Asia. They were poor and illiterate. They've done very well despite often facing discrimination in their newly adopted countries. And culture plays no role in this success? I eagerly await the next explanation from those who think 'culture' is a dirty word.
The Chinese seem to be very good at producing lots of stuff very quickly, at very low cost. I can't imagine how China would have much trouble becoming a high income country. At least if by "high income" you mean a country where the vast majority of people have relatively good homes, cars, home appliances, cell phones, education, and a long life expectancy. On the other hand I find it quite plausible that China ends up near the bottom of the high income range. They don't seem to be very good at producing services, and the quality of goods is often rather low. Perhaps this is just a reflection of underdevelopment, but the Thais, for instance, seem much better at producing services than the Chinese, despite a roughly equal GDP per capita. (Think Chinatown restaurants.)
Tyler Cowen says he is a revenue pessimist but a utility optimist. This means that he expects low growth in measured GDP in the US, but signficant increases in utility due to technical innovations that are hard to turn into revenue. China might be the opposite case; they might do better in terms of revenue than utility.
Now that I'm back from China; a few random observations:
1. Only geoengineering can save us now.
2. All Chinese maps are useless.
3. I greatly prefer the (informal) Chinese table manners, as compared to Western eating habits. I hope we eventually adopt their more pragmatic approach.
4. Beijing is one of the least "walkable" cities in the world. It's a mindbogglingly poorly planned city, with huge blocks surrounded by walls. Going "around the block" might take two miles. It is somehow both too densely populated, and far too spread out. It's more polluted than Shanghai, which makes it harder to attract foreign executives. It's slightly poorer than Shanghai. It's also a more interesting city in many respects. It contains China's best universities, and its high tech hub. It has a much livelier art scene that Shanghai, which is a more commercially-focused city. And of course it has many amazing historical sites. The population is partly of ethnic Mongolian descent, from the days of the Qing Empire.
5. I only spent 4 days in Shanghai and the air was unusually clear, so this may have colored my views. Shanghai seems much more like a real city that Beijing, in much the same way New York seems more like a real city than Washington. But the New York/DC comparison can be misleading. Beijing is more than the Washington DC of China, it's also the Silicon Valley, the Boston, the Soho/Chelsea, etc. I enjoyed the old bank lobbies in the Bund area of Shanghai. We also explored the Peninsula Hotel, and found lots of great art deco rooms. It's nice to get a half price cocktail on the roof of the Roosevelt Club at around 5:30, and then sit and watch Pudong as the sun sets. Only New York, Chicago and Hong Kong have comparable skylines.
6. Yellow Mountain (Huangshan) is absolutely stunning. I had originally assumed that all the great, world class scenery was in western China. Not so, Yellow Mountain, the Guilin area, and Zhangjiajie Hunan (the inspiration for Avatar) all have amazing scenery. These sites are getting crowded, but the western tourist can benefit from the fact that Chinese tourists tend to clump together like bees in a hive, so it is possible to find areas that are off the beaten path, even in heavily visited parks. Most Chinese don't want to get away from the crowd, they assume that whatever the crowd is seeing must be the best scenery. I used to think those famous Chinese landscape paintings exaggerated the mountain scenery to make it look more dramatic. Not so, Yellow Mountain looks just like the paintings. But Thousand Island Lake (QinQaoHu) does not have world class scenery. It's a local tourist trap, and I strong recommend that Western tourists not visit that area. If you are in the Yellow Mountain area, I'd also visit a traditional Anhui water town.
PS. I grew up in Wisconsin, a state that received a large number of German migrants around 1848. Like Germany, Wisconsin is good at producing machines. It's in our blood culture.
PPS. I was comparing Chinese tourists to a beehive in a good way.
PPPS. I'm going to Singapore soon–any suggestions?
PPPPS. Is this a picture of Hong Kong, or a sleepy Central American country with only 4 million people? Answer, it's the sleepy Central American country with the highest proportion of ethnic Chinese in Latin America (4% to 20%, depending on whether pure or partial ethnicity counts.)
This entry was posted on October 08th, 2012 and is filed under China. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response or Trackback from your own site.
« A Lesson for Ed Balls (And Noah Smith)
David Hume's nightmare »
69 Responses to "On the alleged cultural superiority of the Chinese"
"Only geoengineering can save us now."
I cannot WAIT to run a garden hose to the sky. It is going to be so much fun. It makes me giddier than space flight.
Also, like Mundell, Scott Sumner is going to be working for Bejing.
"Chinese tourists tend to clump together like bees in a hive"
I'm not sure if you went to Singapore yet since you wrote this a few weeks ago, but my favorite part of the city is the food. Eat at the hawker centers, not in nice restaurants. Aside from being dirt cheap (always under 5 dollars per meal), the food there is better than the city's nice restaurants and is an important part of the culture.
Matt Waters
The question is, what is Panama? I do wonder why their PPP GDP/capita is twice their nominal GDP/capita. That seems like a pretty big difference to me and I never really liked PPP numbers.
Singapore: bring an umbrella. The next couple of months will be the monsoon season.
Eat out. Harass your local guide, if you have one, for what is good. Taxis and public transport are cheap, safe, and efficient to get to wherever it is.
The 'traditional' tourist spots in Singapore are a little outdated. Singapore circa the late 1980s has a very different feel from Singapore today, the parts which gave it the Disneyified, controlled atmosphere are much less prominent now.
The anthropologist in me suggests taking the metro through the so-called 'heartlands' and people-watching a bit, ideally on a weekday. Chinatown and Little India are pretty, but not representative. Also, browse the local papers for a sense of local concerns, the English papers have high circulation and aren't just read by foreigners.
Ben Abbott
Regarding Singapore, and not in any specific order;
(1) Marina Bay Sands roof top infinity pool
(2) Cycling and/or water skiing at the East Coast Park
(3) Satay at Lau Pa Sat (old market) either Friday or Saturday night
(4) Dine at the Equinox (roof top of the Suisse Hotel)
(5) Night Safari at the Singapore Zoo (includes dinner)
(6) Shopping on Orchard Street
On culture: duly note that modern Singapore has a lot of non-Chinese influences, arguably some for the better (e.g., the civil service culture and notorious aversion to guanxi in favour of cautious planning).
The English-speaking Peranakan-descent civil-service Chinese crushed the Chinese-speaking Chinese nationalists and claimed the Singaporean Chinese identity for themselves, really.
Is it culture or is it history? I really know very little about the history of the region, but it would seem plausible to me that the Chinese have a very long history of dominating their neighbors in ways that could have very lasting effects.
As for walking, I had similar experiences in Shenzhen, where construction and poor planning meant there was only one way to get to the hotel. My attempt to avoid backtracking meant going quite far out of the way around walled off areas. And I had to risk crossing one of the city's larger roads for want of a crosswalk (and a closed tunnel).
It was still more walkable than Cairo though.
For a purer Chinese culture, consider Taiwan, which is also rich but less so and much more corrupt still today.
@Adam: The Chinese did not dominate the region; the British did, and the British entrenched the Chinese merchant/urban-labourer class.
Thomas Sowell has written extensively on this phenomenon; that the behavior of immigrants can often be traced back hundreds of years and thousands of miles to their country of origin. It's why overseas Germans were the brewers and piano makers almost wherever they landed.
He even explains why Bing Crosby made all those sentimental movies about priests, and not Frank Sinatra.
I will visit in late November–thanks for the suggestions.
It's cultural, but not really unique to the ethnic Chinese diaspora. They're successful commercially for the same reason that the Jewish diaspora could be commercially successful in Europe and elsewhere (between the massacres and expulsions):
1. A cultural emphasis on education and learning.
2. Their "outsider" status means that they're closed off from traditional avenues of power and money (AKA land ownership and war), as well as a lot of professions. That leaves commerce and trade.
3. They have cultural ties to other members of the Chinese diaspora scattered across the region, which facilitates trade in a low-information, low-rules environment.
Wisconsin is known for it's cultures.
(cheese pun).
mpowell
Assuming you are correct that the Chinese culture is such that minority Chinese populations in foreign countries do well materially, why do you think this should be extended to China as a country as well? After all, the habits and values that can lead to personal success may not translate into forming a society/government with a successful economy. These two things are likely to be correlated, perhaps, but they are not the same thing.
Scott: You are going to be in Singapore?! Feel free to drop me an email. I'll buy you lunch–something local (and inexpensive, if you are worried about that).
Zoo (including night safari), Bird Park, Botanic Gardens are all good. if you are more adventurous, Sungei Buloh Wetland Reserve as well. The newly opened Garden by the Bay is also worth considering. Second Ben Abbott on people watching in the heartland–go by metro (MRT) and public bus.
One could also argue the seafarers were more adventurous (in many ways) and they had little to lose
For instance, a couple I know, the husband is a hourly wage earner at GE and the wife, after starting as a seamstress, is a clerk. They emigrated to the U.S. several decades ago. First, they saved enough money to buy a condo. Then a two family. You got the picture. Their boy has finished his MBA and girl MD now
I am not sure if it is blood, culture or predispositions, since it happened to the Jews and Irish before
As a point of contrast, there are also children who have never experienced hardship. They drift in foreign water without any moorings. It was more prevalent in Canada during the Hong Kong changeover period
Perhaps the moral of the story is to stay hungry (although being too hungry could invite other problems)
liberals in general don't have a problem with acknowledging the positive or negative effects of culture. We have problems with people making blanket statements about it. We have big problems with people who confuse culture for race.
This post is a straw man. It has nothing to do with the truth that phrase "Hive mind" HAS attached to it a racist connotation. "Hive mind" may or may not accurately describe an element of Chinese culture that makes it successful, but accuracy is not the issue. One can be literally accurate and connotatively racist simultaneously. "Hive Mind" could charitably be about to the tendency to work together, to care for each other, and to be able to put aside minor individual wants to work for the good of the whole… But it is almost never used that way. The way "Hive mind" IS used is to describe a group of people as having SUBHUMAN qualities.
Do you deny that "hive mind" is primarily used in a derogatory fashion ?
My father-in-law is 84. He is a very good man. Racist as hell. When he refers to black people he and he is trying to be polite…. he calls them "darkies".
It is accurate, black people are darker …but it is sooo ugly and offensive. At 84 growing up on a farm, in a relatively isolated community…he just does not get it.
If he were not an old racist man but someone who should know better, but used the term "darkie" anyway, would you defend his use of the racist term? Would you deny the racial insensitivity of it ?
Do you really not know better ? I wonder.
A very few people are sorta naively blind to this kind of thing. If you are one of them, maybe you should write about something else.
The persistence of culture it the most powerful single force effecting humanity.
It is almost impossible to stamp out. (Thank god). Stamping it out requires Orwellian measurers .
But cultures can and do evolve. Cultural aspects can be transferred from one culture to another. The most effective way to transfer a positive cultural aspect is through peaceful, respectful contact and coexistence over time.
The least effective way to transfer a positive cultural aspect is through force.
If culture isn't a constant (uh, hello Mao?) then I'm not really sure what lessons anyone can really take from Scott's post. There's a lot of path dependency involved in the way nations and people and cultures develop. I find it hard to believe that in the alternate universe where Germany and Japan happened to win World War II that anyone is mentioning Jewish and Chinese money making superiority.
Scott, how many of these are tourist traps? And aren't most of them in the East?
http://www.cnngo.com/shanghai/life/40-beautiful-places-visit-china-943929
Also, apparently there are really neat spots right in the middle of Shanghai! (Is the art gallery in the picture any good?)
http://www.cnngo.com/shanghai/play/shanghais-best-hidden-scenic-spots-along-metro-920122
Wait, what is the East/West line in China?
David, I was thinking on a much, much longer time frame that that.
Also, the British were hardly alone in terms of Western influence in the region.
ChargerCarl
Beijing sounds kinda like dubai. Just a big suburb with spaced tall buildings instead of single family homes.
The Dutch also conquered the area briefly, but in practice the British eliminated all their influence north of Singapore.
@Bill Ellis – Singapore is a pretty good example of 'stamping out' culture, actually. At independence the Chinese majority spoke barely any English (single digits %) and, notably, spoke no Mandarin (<1%). Today they speak majority English as a first language and Mandarin in the remainder. In just two generations!
Mpowell, I agree, consider the Mao period.
Bill, You said;
My view exactly–cultures evolve over time. I'm still scratching my head over your other post. Tell me again why the ASIAN Development Journal, and its 12 ASIAN editors didn't spot that obvious insult. Is it possible that only CERTAIN people view that as an insult. Like you and Noah.
Jim Crow, Nothing's constant in this world. Does that mean no category is useful?
Saturos, Chengdu is where I draw the line.
Philemon, You said;
"Scott: You are going to be in Singapore?! Feel free to drop me an email. I'll buy you lunch-something local (and inexpensive, if you are worried about that)."
No, if you are buying I'm not worried. 🙂
Certain South and Southeast Asian groups find "hive mind" concepts useful, particularly when it serves certain unpalatable purposes such as implying that Malays are un-hive-mind and therefore lazy (for example).
It's still insulting, even if it's packaged into "Asian values" by Asian leaders themselves.
David, So it's insulting to people who are not included in the hive mind. OK . . .
So why didn't Noah say so?
David, Now I feel insulted! I'm going to have to have a talk with Garett . . .
Saturos, I haven't been to many of those. I can tell you that 1000 island lake is a tourist trap.
Language is only one aspect of culture. And not a very important one. It has nothing to do with behavior.
johnleemk
My only advice re Singapore (as someone who grew up in both Singapore and Malaysia) is to get yourself over to a major Malaysian city (at least Kuala Lumpur and/or Penang) if you can find the time. It'll be well worth the trip: the food is better and even cheaper, and if you're interested in cross-cultural comparisons, the trip is virtually mandatory, because in many respects, Singapore and Malaysia are two sides of the same cultural coin (Singapore was once a state of Malaysia). Singapore and Penang in particular are good comparison points, since both are:
* former Straits Settlements (i.e. they were administered almost identically under the British)
* Malaysian (well, at least until 1965 in Singapore's case) island states
* Predominantly Chinese-populated with substantial non-Chinese communities
Well, then. Behavior. In one generation guanxi got replaced by high-trust low-corruption attitudes.
Back in the 1980s there were culture clashes already, when Singaporean businessmen got posted to their neighbors: Singaporeans would complain that everyone else is corrupt and grasping, their local contacts would complain that Singaporeans are arrogant but incapable of making decisions without running home to the head office. It took a while for Singaporeans to re-learn that other Asians expect lower-level functionaries to be able to make decisions and pull strings over things that, in the West, would be regarded as a breach of trust to the employer.
I second visiting Penang, it's very much what Singapore very nearly could have been, if the English-educated politburo had had a weaker grip.
You Ask.. "why the ASIAN Development Journal, and its 12 ASIAN editors didn't spot that obvious insult."
Maybe Because they are Asian ?
When you said…
"I have to admit that I didn't see "hive mind" as a racial insult. But what do I know? I'm a westerner."… You got it backward.
"Hive mind" is a term that in the west is widely regarded as derogatory… especially when applied to Asians.
It would not surprise me at all if Asians on the editorial board were not familiar with the connotations. It would surprise me if Garett Jones was unfamiliar with them.
I am not saying Garett Jones is a racist… but I am saying he should have known how it would come across.
It is a fact that "Hive mind" is overwhelmingly used in a derogatory dehumanizing way. It has a real meaning beyond the literal that is understood by most.
You honestly don't realize that "Hive mind" is a term that has been traditionally used to denigrate Asians ?
Hard to believe.
Garett Jones' use of the term and your defence of it comes across as Knee Jerk anti PC.
I would not expect a group of Africans editors to object to the term "Negro" in a paper. But it would not change the fact that it if author of the paper was an American it would have to be seen as racially insensitive.
"National IQ and National Productivity: The Negro Mind Across Africa."
It's very unlikely that Singaporeans or Malaysians (for example) are unfamiliar with "Asians are uniquely communitarian" rhetoric. Lee Kuan Yew and Mahathir Muhammad both made it a thing back in the 1990s.
The others on the editorial board, who knows?
RebelEconomist
Something about Chinese nationalism that has always struck me as a bit silly was the fact that the Chinese are inevitably always comparing themselves with much smaller areas. The Chinese may all look similar to westerners, but I presume that there are large differences between regional cultures and histories. So, a more reasonable comparison is not between China and Germany or France or Italy, but between China and, say, Europe. For example, Chinese sometimes tell me with pride that Chinese civilisation is much older than British, yet, by Chinese standards, London is not that far from Rome or even Athens.
Visit Tiong Bahru food stalls!
Tiong Bahru market is no longer the one and only place to go, a lot of hawkers have shuffled around for lower rent elsewhere, and the government has been building many more hawker food stores elsewhere in order to fight the surging rent. One really needs to ask around to find out where the superstars moved to.
Rebel, aren't like 90% of chinese Han? Not that china isn't culturally diverse, but it doesn't strike me as being comparable to Europe either.
The "Asians are uniquely communitarian" meme , might not necessarily be taken as an insult. It could be be a source of pride. There is much to be said for the notion of being communitarian.
But were the editors you point out aware of how "Hive Mind" specifically has been traditionally used as a dehumanizing term in in America ?
Would it ring the same bell with them as with Americans ?
Do you dispute that the term hive mind when used in America especially when describing Asians is derogatory ?
I mean… it is like Scott and I grew up in alternate reality Americas.
I don't know, I'm not American. 😀
I'm Asian-American and the term hive mind does not sound derogatory to me at all. In fact, I usually hear it in a positive manner to indicate collective knowledge: "Ask the hive mind, they might know."
As an Asian person myself, I have to say that "hive mind" is neither here nor there. (You don't have to take this as me speaking on behalf of Asian persons in general; taking it as the impressions of this one Asian person will do.) I intellectually understand how it could be derogatory or meant to be derogatory–if one works from some background assumption that individual=good and collective=bad, or something like that. And I take it that such an assumption (and its contrary) is not unknown among the Chinese. But I seriously doubt that it has the same salience as in the US. At least to this Asian person, it seems that the moral indignation over the matter is *mostly* experienced by non-Asians ostensibly on behalf of Asians… For all I know, that moral indignation might well be in order and justified, it just doesn't seem to have the same pull around here, unless one has already bought into a whole swath of broadly American cultural assumptions.
Scott: As we might say in the local pidgin, "onz lah!" So please do drop me a line when you are in town–it would be a great pleasure to buy lunch for one of my favorite econ bloggers of all times.
One more thing–Scott's "Chinese tourists tend to clump together like bees in a hive" can be roughly mapped onto idiomatic Chinese. Sort of. One way to describe how a bunch of people were all rushing toward something in a group is to say that they 一窝蜂的 (literally, like a hive/swarm of bees)did this or that. Possible usage (found on the internet) includes saying that all of the outbound students were all rushing–like a hive/swarm of bees–to enroll in business courses. Needless to say, the phrase could be used in a derogatory context; but it need not bee, and even if so, it's not because of any background devaluation of the hive mind.
More notes on food in Singapore: Katong laksa has fled Katong as the neighborhood gentrified; Tiong Bahru pau has likewise mostly left Tiong Bahru.
The flipside of an efficient market-oriented government that doesn't yield to localist pressures to preserve a neighborhood is that neighborhood identities aren't preserved! Cowenian cuisine logic works less well here.
And eat pepper crab…better than chili crab, though both are excellent.
The trouble is that our brains love to unconsciously amplify any statement about groups into an absolute law. If you make a statement about groups and don't also point out its limits, a lot of readers will take away a much stronger statement than you made, without even realizing it.
So if you say "Obviously, something about Chinese culture has facilitated economic growth", it has an unfortunate tendency to subconsciously turn into "Chinese are just naturally, magically, inherently better at business!"
Statistically true statements about groups are often misleading in effect, despite good intentions. Why? Because they get turned by readers into absolute magically true laws of the universe.
Do we have to feel responsible for every stupid unconscious tendency a reader might have? No. But it's a good idea, when you make a statistically true statement about groups, to follow it up with a reminder of its limits.
So I could say:
"Obviously, something about Chinese culture goes well with economic growth."
But then add:
"Of course, Japan had high economic growth right up through the 1980s, and China proper had lousy growth under Mao, so culture alone won't save you from government-mandated famines, central banks bent on curtailing NGDP, or other gross stupidity."
And then I could lead the reader to the much more specific conclusion I thought was warranted:
"So while China may indeed have a nasty rebalancing coming up, I still think it's worth asking why people from China have been able to deliver so much economic growth, in so many places, when the same doesn't seem to be nearly as true of people from India or Pakistan."
An important element in the extraordinary Chinese success in SE Asia is trust networks. In low-trust societies with exploitive states, having access to high-trust networks with very strong reputation effects was a huge commercial advantage.
This is why the overseas Chinese have done comparatively so much better in SE Asia than in, say, Australia. They do well in Australia, but not extraordinary, because Australia is a comparatively high trust society with good (i.e. non-exploitive) institutions.
Jews, Armenians, South Asians in Africa are all similar stories.
A very useful report is here:
http://www.dfat.gov.au/publications/catalogue/chinese_networks.html
Oh, and enough about the hive mind. Jones's paper does not imply that only Asians have hive minds. On the contrary, it is a generic characteristic of societies in his analysis.
Ning Fu(Foenix)
As a Chinese, I found this passage contains many distinctive and novel views of China.(such as, all chinese maps are useless:-)
However, here is a little mistake of history in the narration. In the 4th bullet point, it is said that "The population is partly of ethnic Mongolian descent, from the days of the Qing Empire." When in Qing Dynasty(Empire), it is Manchurians that was domineering China. And Mongolian invaded China when Yuan Dynasty(Empire) I know there are too much dynasty, so it is kind of confusing.
Speaking of Singapore, Chinese culture has an influent on Singapore. You still can see some people speak Cantonese.
Scott, I can see your point about categorization. Especially if you're trying to link it to policy recommendations that can incentivize the traits you happen to think are positive. But I guess the way we refer to cultures via weird ethnic-nation combos kinda bugs me.I mean, I've lived in a number of places and even though California and Texas are part of America I'm still amazed at how different they are culturally, politically, etc. etc. To me there is no real American culture. It's too diverse. On the other hand, if you keep drilling down into the weeds of description like Californian 2nd generation Asian American culture in the year of 1970 your posts will read like arguments from Seinfeld. I happen to think China which is even BIGGER than the US is almost as diverse, if not more. So same problem applies there in my opinion. So I would tend to focus on the traits themselves I like (high saving, high trust networks, etc.) then the vague culture that we sorta kinda associate these traits with. Or, you could start an Anthropology blog. That would work too.
@Ning Fu(Foenix)
Until recently, the bulk of the ethnic Chinese came from Fujian province, Chaozhou people, and only after that, Cantonese speakers from Guangzhou, and after that, the Kejia (Hakka) and Hainanese. A generation ago, most would speak some form of Hokkien (Fujianhua), or Teochew (Chaozhou), or Cantonese (Guandonghua) as their mother tongue–until deliberate government policy enforced Mandarin instructions in the schools. And even today, you can still hear a lot of ethnic Chinese (mostly of the older generation) speaking the various Chinese languages, though most from the younger generation would be conversant in a form of Mandarin (with some Fujianhua, Malay and English influences) and English.
Bill, Your argument simply won't work. The journal also has lots of editors stationed at places like Stanford, Harvard, Berkeley, Penn, the World Bank. There are a bunch with Western names.
I'd never heard the term "hive mind" in my entire life, until I read Garett's paper. I assure you that if it was an ethnic slur, it was unintentional. Why would Garett do something like that on purpose? It boggles the mind what some people will believe.
DKS, Good point, but people who read blogs like this tend to be highly educated, so I tend to treat them with respect, rather than always stating the obvious as if they are morons.
ChargerCarl, China is both more and less diverse than Europe, depending on which issue you are thinking about. You can find certain consumption/style/fad patterns that are amazing ubiquitous throughout China, and yet you have both people living in caves and people living living in ultra-modern Shanghai at the same time. Culture can be measured in many dimensions
Revisiting this provides me with a couple of thoughts
Not sure about East/West China but definitely there can be a North/South dichotomy
Foenix is right about the many dynasties and Qing is Manchurian. In standard Chinese history books many decades ago, there was a discussion of five foreign tribes fusing (this is sanitized, the literal word is "mess with") in China. One can't really whitewash 300 year history
Speaking of history and Mao, he was a librarian. According to my sister – she was a Chinese History teacher – Mao learned a lot of his realpolitik from the Three Kingdom Chronicle
While Hans doesn't denote a good connotation these days (think Tibet), an alternate form is People of Tang. Tang Dynasty was even more cosmopolitan than Han. Foreign religions were tolerated. Do people know there were Jewish settlements in China?
So, in terms of history, Communist China can very well a blip
Mikio Kumada
Cultural arguments can be misleading, and can be driven by biases. For me, some nations in Asia are wealthier that others and more, shall we say, advanced is not the percentage of the Chinese population, but the timing and the depth of the adoption of Western principles (science, the rule of law, democracy, etc.), not necessarily simultaneously, but at lest gradually, over time.
I mean: The reason some nations in Asia are wealthier than others is not their "Chineseness", but their adoption of post-enlightenment modernity. There are (predominantly) Chinese as well as non-Chinese societies that did well, and will probably continue to do well.
Shanghai's "cityness" may be because in Chinese terms it is a baby. The historically significant cities of the Yangtze delta are Nanjing and the ones passed by the Grand Canal: Hangzhou, Suzhou, Wuxi, etc.
Shanghai was too much of a swamp for development until the Qing, and even then it was more of a port city of little cultural significance to the literati. And then the Europeans came and really shook up the place. So its development is certainly much less planned along classical Chinese lines.
chris mahoney
I hold a very similar theory for Latin America. There is no need to describe Latin American countries as poor or rich, since this is a demonstrable derivative of ethnicity. Europeans, wherever the live in Latam, are rich. Africans and indigenous peoples, wherever they live, are poor. National per-capita income is a direct function of the ethnic census. Thus, social success in Latam is not a function of policy choices, but rather of race or culture. The imposition of Chilean neoliberalism onto Bolivia will not make it rich. It won't hurt, but it won't be transformative.
It shouldn't surprise you that East Asian editors don't take objection to racial/ethnic/cultural classifications. Not to be racist, but they view almost everything with through the racial/ethnic/cultural lens. (I hope this doesn't end up on Noah's site) It doesn't mean their own clichés and stereotypes about themselves are accurate, though.
I'm not scared to admit culture plays a huge role in economic success, but come on, the arguments you've laid out are really poor. Sorry, but they border on Niall Ferguson simplistic.
Starting from the bottom, that's Panama City, as in adjacent to the shipping mega-nexus, toll-collecting, full-capacity Panama Canal. Come on.
I'll give you this one, that Chinese do the best business-wise in SE Asia… but the Brits did more business than the natives of the Indian subcontinent during the Raj too. There is much more at play here than just what kind of culture you have, namely which culture do you belong to. Proximity/access to the home market is a big factor.
In Latin America and Middle East, the Chinese shopkeepers, importers, etc. do the same thing. They are the only ones qualified to buy stuff from China. Is this saavy, or just some mechanical arbitrage?
I know you didn't use Asian wage or unemployment in this article, but I think you have before. Excuse me if I am wrong. However, for every statistic that says Asians earn more than Whites in White-majority nations, I can find you one with the reverse trend in Asian-majority nations. The credo of educated immigrants and immigrant's children everywhere is not to settle for being a bus driver or construction worker in the "foreigners' country" (if they are even allowed to work these jobs).
Also, the biggest wage earners in the US aren't Chinese or East Asians anyways. Indians are leading them by a wide margin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ethnic_groups_in_the_United_States_by_household_income). What does this say about comparing Chinese to Indian culture?
And lastly (but most importantly), how do you view Chinese culture in light of the relative economic failure of China in the past 500 years (ex-ante the last 30)? Why wasn't the world importing cheap Chinese steam engines? Where was the rapid integration of practical Western know-how? We can selectively move the viewing window to see whatever we want.
Don't get me wrong, I have many Chinese friends and acquaintances and see a deeply ingrained will to succeed and beat the average. But romanticizing their culture is a weak tool to analyze their current relative success.
Right now, Chinese people are just very quick. They are quick to step up and seize the opportunities that are evident and abundant to them at this point in history. If Chinese history can tell us anything is that China is long overdue for an ascent.
"I'm going to Singapore soon-any suggestions?"
Oo oo! I've been there! And lived there for several months. But lots of things I was going to say has already been said. So I'll second the most important things imo and give my 2 cents:
1. bring an umbrella- people say there is a wet and a "dry" season, but it is actually always the wet season there.
2. eat at the hawker centers- low cost, high quality, non-touristy food. They are everywhere, but Lau Pa Sat is a big downtown one.
3. I enjoy walking around cities. If you do too, I would recommend along the Singapore River (yes, they have a "river" there) and around Marina Bay.
4. Lots of people like to shop… if that's your thing I hear Orchard Road is good for that. (it's not my thing though, so I wouldn't know)
5. if plants are your thing, I thought the botanical gardens was cool (and free!) but kind of out of the way. The Orchid gardens is right beside it too.
6. Sentosa Island is the biggest tourist trap on the island. Still kinda neat though. Kids will probably enjoy it, your wallet won't.
Wikitravel is a useful website.
Scott, I'm a bit late to see this, but if you're in Singapore by all means drop me an e-mail and I'll be one more candidate to take you out somewhere, or to take you around period.
Lots of good advice on what to visit already. Generally, you might want to see the prestige items I presume, just to check them off the list (Marina Bay Sands, the whole new Marina area, Boat Quay and Clarke Quay along the Singapore river and the CBD). I actually rarely go there. It's a tourist and banker destination. My personal favorites are Katong, Siglap, East Coast Park. Yes Katong is now very crowded but so is pretty much everything else. Little India has got o be seen, the only place that's still somehow allowed to be a mess. I am there all the time because it's the only place outside industrial areas where you can actually buy useful stuff. Like, tools, screws, lumber.
But all these places above are atypical. They're very very special. To get a feel for the way Singaporeans actually live, I'd really, really recommend to take the MRT (subway) or a taxi to places where the bulk of people live, the "towns". Examples: Ang Mo Kio, Toa Payoh, Tampines, Woodlands. Spend the day there. Walk around. It's safe. Eat where you find food (everywhere). Go to the "suburban" malls. Just to get a feel for the reality that Singaporeans live in.
"Chinese tourists tend to clump together like bees in a hive, so it is possible to find areas that are off the beaten path"
Rugged American individualism on display in China.
Late but Singaporean here, if that helps:
1. Sentosa is generally a tourist trap unless you intend to just walk around or laze at the beach and pay for nothing but the ticket in.
2. It's the migratory bird season at the wetland areas. If you're interested, check out Chek Jawa on Pulau Ubin, Sungei Buloh, or Pulau Semalau. You can also cycle on Pulau Ubin and see the old village-style houses on the island. Pulau Semakau is an offshore landfill.
3. Many food stalls at the hawker centres in the Central Business District area don't stay open for dinner. They are best for lunch on weekdays before the office crowd arrives at 12. If you're at Maxwell food centre, you might also want to visit the URA City gallery right beside it.
4. If you can help it, have seafood somewhere other than Newton Food Centre, because some of the seafood stalls there have a record of preying on unsuspecting tourists. East Coast Lagoon Food Village is a good alternative and if you don't mind spending more, the East Coast Seafood Centre is nearby. Unfortunately, East Coast Park is not very accessible from any MRT station.
5. Word of caution on suburban malls and Orchard Road. You probably have to settle for food courts (worse except for the pricier upscale ones) or restaurants in the malls because hawker centres aren't likely to be in the vicinity.
6. Sim Lim Square is notorious for being the place to get cheap consumer electronics but it's easy to get cheated. Alternatively, SITEX 2012 will be held around Late November at the Singapore Expo but beware of the crowds.
7. The Esplanade usually has some free performances at the Concert Hall, Concourse, or Waterfront: http://www.esplanade.com/whats_on/esplanade_presents/series/index.jsp
8. Consider taking a trip to Malaysia or Indonesia. Johor Bahru is across the Causeway while Bali and Batam are a ferry ride away.
9. Botanic Gardens are nice, as is the Orchid Garden. The new Gardens by the Bay (near Marina Bay Sands) wasn't that amazing for me (too "built") but the cooled conservatories there (paid entry though) may be better.
DF, You say you disagree, but all your arguments support mine–except the Panama example which was obviously a joke.
Everyone, Thanks for the Singapore tips.
Sorry, I missed the Panama joke. I should be more careful reading your posts because your facetiousness is subtle.
However, I don't see how my arguments support your claims. By simply looking at relative performance, everything I said can be used to argue that being BAD at business is a particular Chinese attribute.
If it's available, I could look at wage and unemployment data in the PRC by country of origin and conclude that Americans and Europeans clearly are better at doing business than Chinese. Indeed, many Chinese think this, that is why they send their students to the West for education and immersion in our "innovative" culture.
Similarly I could look at US wage data and conclude Indians have a stronger business acumen than Chinese. Maybe this attribute is stronger in Indian culture that Chinese culture? What does this say about the 21st century?
Going back to 1980, we could say (and many did) that China was uniquely bad at economic growth, technological progress, human development relative to nearly every other major civilization. Mainland China went from very competitive circa 1500 to pretty much dead last by 1980. Perhaps this is a hallmark of their culture? That's not to say that other cultures are "superior"; China still has the literary and culinary arts, and a rich history. Maybe I shouldn't assume Chinese culture in the past 30 years was the same as its culture 500 years before that, but I don't think that's what you meant.
So indeed, if you are just looking at relative performance and at selected windows of history, you can (erroneously) conclude that Western, Indian, and other civilizations are much more competitive than Chinese.
I think you are viewing this from a popular but largely unsubstantiated perspective. Culture seems like a particularly weak indicator for business success, especially when there are so many more convincing factors…
How about obvious ones, like recently liberalized trade and tariff agreements benefit the average Chinese much more than the average Westerner? Or empirical ones, like patterns and preferences in immigration tend to be correlated to that group's success and standard of living in the host nation? Or historical ones, like its uncharacteristic that China remains down for this many centuries? Or comical ones, like economic competitiveness is determined by how much value is placed cigarettes and liquor? The West has had its day (Ã la Mad Men), now it's time for the next vice-ridden society to take its place.
Seems like everyone here are subject to some form of cognitive bias:
First, two biased reasoners considering the same
stream of evidence can shift their beliefs in opposite directions""both sides selectively
accepting only favorable evidence. Gathering more evidence may not bring biased reasoners to agreement. Second, people who are more skilled skeptics""who know a larger
litany of logical flaws""but apply that skill selectively, may change their minds more slowly than unskilled reasoners.
Taber and Lodge (2006) examined the prior attitudes and attitude changes of students when exposed to political literature for and against gun control and affirmative
action. The study tested six hypotheses using two experiments:
1. Prior attitude effect. Subjects who feel strongly about an issue""even when encouraged to be objective""will evaluate supportive arguments more favorably than
contrary arguments.
2. Disconfirmation bias. Subjects will spend more time and cognitive resources denigrating contrary arguments than supportive arguments.
3. Confirmation bias. Subjects free to choose their information sources will seek out supportive rather than contrary sources.
4. Attitude polarization. Exposing subjects to an apparently balanced set of pro and con arguments will exaggerate their initial polarization.
5. Attitude strength effect. Subjects voicing stronger attitudes will be more prone to the above biases.
6. Sophistication effect. Politically knowledgeable subjects, because they possess greater ammunition with which to counter-argue incongruent facts and arguments, will be more prone to the above biases.
Ironically, Taber and Lodge's experiments confirmed all six of the authors' prior hypotheses.
Notice point no. 6.
Here's the source http://singularity.org/files/CognitiveBiases.pdf
philemon, What you said is true, but all places you mentioned are in the south of China, and the history you said is only within 200 years. It can not be referred as ancient chinese history, i.e. different dynasties. As Scott said in the reply of "keynesian world" qing dynasty was directed by manchu, and ming and yuan dynasties were directed by mongolians. After these dynasties, china developed in a way as you mentioned.
@Ning Fu
I was responding specifically to your line "Speaking of Singapore, Chinese culture has an influen[ce] on Singapore. You still can see some people speak Cantonese". –Until recently, the bulk of the ethnic Chinese in Singapore came or are descended from people who came from south China, specifically, places such as Fujian, Guangzhou, Hainan. And the Cantonese speakers are not the largest group. (Just reread my comment and realized that I didn't make explicit the point that I was doing that, sorry.)


TODAY North winds 5 to 15 knots becoming east. Waves 2 feet or less.
TONIGHT East winds 10 to 15 knots increasing to 15 to 25 knots. Rain likely in the evening, then a chance of rain overnight. Waves 2 feet or less building to 3 to 5 feet.
THURSDAY East winds to 30 knots diminishing to 15 to 20 knots. Waves 4 to 7 feet subsiding to 3 to 6 feet. Waves occasionally around 9 feet.
THURSDAY NIGHT East winds 15 to 20 knots becoming south. Showers likely with a chance of thunderstorms overnight. Waves 3 to 6 feet subsiding to 2 to 4 feet.
FRIDAY South winds 15 to 20 knots becoming west. Showers during the day. Waves 2 to 4 feet.
SATURDAY West winds 15 to 20 knots becoming north 5 to 15 knots. A chance of rain showers Saturday night. Waves 2 to 4 feet subsiding to 1 to 3 feet.


text:
<TITLE>Review for Reality Bites (1994)</TITLE>
<LINK REL="STYLESHEET" TYPE="text/css" HREF="/ramr.css">

Reality Bites (1994)

reviewed by
Scott Renshaw

                                REALITY BITES
                       A film review by Scott Renshaw
                        Copyright 1994 Scott Renshaw

Starring:  Winona Ryder, Ethan Hawke, Ben Stiller, Janeane Garofolo,
           Steve Zahn.
Screenplay:  Helen Childress.
Director:  Ben Stiller.

     In print and television interviews, everyone associated with
REALITY BITES has been trying desperately to convince potential viewers
that it's not a "Generation X" movie, but just a simple romantic
comedy.

     Yeah.  Right.

     REALITY BITES follows SLACKER; SINGLES; and BODIES, REST & MOTION
in the sweepstakes to most accurately capture the 20-something
zeitgeist, but I found it more reminiscent of star Winona Ryder's
breakthrough film HEATHERS.  While REALITY BITES does include some very
funny moments and finely observed insight, it also tends to reduce its
central characters to a collection of kitschy bon mots.

     Ryder stars in REALITY BITES as Lelaina Pierce, a recent college
grad living in Houston.  Lelaina, an aspiring filmmaker, works as an
intern at a local morning talk show while filming a documentary about
herself and her closest friends:  acerbic roommate Vickie (Janeane
Garofolo), a clerk at the Gap; cynical grunge musician Troy (Ethan
Hawke); and in-the-closet gay Sammy (Steve Zahn).  Tensions begin when
Troy loses his job and moves in with Lelaina and Vickie, then heighten
when Lelaina begins dating Michael (Ben Stiller), an executive for
MTV-clone In Your Face TV.  Their relationship forces Troy to deal with
his feelings for Lelaina, and about responsibility in general.
Meanwhile, Vicke faces an HIV test, and Sammy considers coming out to
his parents.

     REALITY BITES is strongest on the level of details and the number
of individual laughs of recognition they provide.  I will admit to
participating in a group sing-along of "Conjunction Junction" like
these characters, and to playing games based on sit-com episodes.
Screenwriter Helen Childress, all of 23 years old, realizes that the
common thread binding her chronological peers is 1970s schlock culture,
and the disillusionment born of watching their parents conspicuously
credit consume them out of a bright future.  Vickie is perhaps the most
recognizable type to me; I know a few people who cover their walls with
old music posters and beg for you to turn up bad power pop songs with
memories of junior high school dances.  More so than SINGLES, REALITY
BITES identifies the sense of ideological drift that characterizes
Americans in their mid-20s, but without the moody self-importance of
BODIES, REST & MOTION.

     This is not to say that Childress doesn't also give in to easy
stereotypes.  Every parent in REALITY BITES is characterized by a
cartoonish materialism, and becomes an easy target for blame.  Lelaina
never develops a distinct personality, instead becoming a
representation of the job traumas of the generation.  The romantic
triangle doesn't have quite the impact it could have had because as
attractive as Ryder is, she doesn't seem nearly as interesting as, say,
Vickie.  Troy is an even more problematic character, a first class
self-absorbed jerk who philosophizes in bastardized advertising
jingles.  The transformation Childress tries to foist off on us is far
too contrived, and she seems too willing to let Troy's attitude stand
as an acceptable response to the world he perceives.  Fortunately, they
are somewhat balanced by two delightful supporting performances.  Comic
Janeane Garofolo (TV's THE LARRY SANDERS SHOW) is hysterical as Vickie,
displaying a natural timing which makes the most mundane lines funny.
Director Ben Stiller is charming as Lelaina's perpetually flustered
suitor, and should be congratulated for risking the hesitating delivery
which makes his character appear very real.

     I have to note that I was extremely disappointed by the ending of
REALITY BITES, but that may say more about me than about the film.
While there are numerous character stumbles, overall I felt the tone
was on target, and I laughed a lot.  REALITY BITES off a bit more than
it can chew, but it all goes down eventually.

     On the Renshaw scale of 0 to 10 Big Gulps:  7.

--
Scott Renshaw
Stanford University
Office of the General Counsel

.

The review above was posted to the
rec.arts.movies.reviews newsgroup (de.rec.film.kritiken for German reviews).

The Internet Movie Database accepts no responsibility for the contents of the
review and has no editorial control. Unless stated otherwise, the copyright
belongs to the author.

Please direct comments/criticisms of the review to relevant newsgroups.

Broken URLs inthe reviews are the responsibility of the author.

The formatting of the review is likely to differ from the original due
to ASCII to HTML conversion.

Related links: index of all rec.arts.movies.reviews reviews

redpajama_set_name: RedPajamaGithub


text:
//********************************************************************
//*
//* Warning: This file was generated by ecore4CPP Generator
//*
//********************************************************************

#ifndef OCL_EVALUATIONS_EVALENVIRONMENT_HPP
#define OCL_EVALUATIONS_EVALENVIRONMENT_HPP

#include <memory>
#include <string>
// forward declarations
template<class T> class Bag;

//*********************************
// generated Includes
#include <map> // used for Persistence
#include <vector> // used for Persistence
namespace persistence
{
	namespace interfaces
	{
		class XLoadHandler; // used for Persistence
		class XSaveHandler; // used for Persistence
	}
}

namespace ocl
{
	class oclFactory;
}

//Forward Declaration for used types
namespace ocl::Values
{
	class NameValueBinding;
}
namespace fUML::Semantics::Values
{
	class Value;
}

// namespace macro header include
#include "ocl/ocl.hpp"

#include "ecore/EModelElement.hpp"

//*********************************
namespace ocl::Evaluations
{

	class OCL_API EvalEnvironment : virtual public ecore::EModelElement
	{
		public:
 			EvalEnvironment(const EvalEnvironment &) {}

		protected:
			EvalEnvironment(){}

		public:
			virtual std::shared_ptr<ecore::EObject> copy() const = 0;

			//destructor
			virtual ~EvalEnvironment() {}

			//*********************************
			// Operations
			//*********************************
			virtual void add(std::shared_ptr<ocl::Values::NameValueBinding> n) = 0;
			virtual void addAll(std::shared_ptr<Bag<ocl::Values::NameValueBinding>> nvbs) = 0;
			virtual std::shared_ptr<ocl::Values::NameValueBinding> find(std::string name) = 0;
			virtual std::shared_ptr<fUML::Semantics::Values::Value> getValueOf(std::string n) = 0;
			virtual void replace(std::shared_ptr<ocl::Values::NameValueBinding> n) = 0;

			//*********************************
			// Attribute Getters & Setters
			//*********************************

			//*********************************
			// Reference Getters & Setters
			//*********************************
			virtual std::shared_ptr<Bag<ocl::Values::NameValueBinding>> getBindings() const = 0;

			//*********************************
			// Union Reference Getters
			//*********************************

			//*********************************
			// Container Getter
			//*********************************
			virtual std::shared_ptr<ecore::EObject> eContainer() const = 0;

			//*********************************
			// Persistence Functions
			//*********************************
			virtual void load(std::shared_ptr<persistence::interfaces::XLoadHandler> loadHandler) = 0;
			virtual void resolveReferences(const int featureID, std::vector<std::shared_ptr<ecore::EObject> > references) = 0;
			virtual void save(std::shared_ptr<persistence::interfaces::XSaveHandler> saveHandler) const = 0;

		protected:
			//*********************************
			// Attribute Members
			//*********************************

			//*********************************
			// Reference Members
			//*********************************
			mutable std::shared_ptr<Bag<ocl::Values::NameValueBinding>> m_bindings;
	};
}
#endif /* end of include guard: OCL_EVALUATIONS_EVALENVIRONMENT_HPP */


text:
On Your Marks !
On Your Marks!
A future plan for Crystal Palace
National Sports Centre
Click here to sign up to our Mailing List
About On Your Marks!
The Mayor wants to ensure that Crystal Palace National Sports Centre is fit for the future. A team of architects, designers, enthusiasts and specialists has been assembled to come up with a plan.
The iconic building within Crystal Palace Park has been host to an impressive sporting heritage. Records were set. Medals were clinched. Legends were born. It was the home of the international London Athletics Grand Prix for nearly 60 years. FA cup finals and motor races were amongst the high profile events that put Crystal Palace firmly on the sporting map.
Whilst these major events now take place at newer iconic venues such as Wembley Stadium and Queen Elizabeth Olympic Park, Crystal Palace National Sports Centre continues to host an array of sports events such as the London Youth Games, an annual triathlon and national championships for a number of sports as well as school sports days and events for the local community.
The Centre provides a large programme of community sport and leisure, delivered by Better Leisure, with over 2,400 children learning to swim and over 700,000 visitors using the facilities each year.
The facilities have seen better days and significant investment is needed to keep the Centre running. But changes can be made to transform the Centre into a hub for leisure and sport that works for the whole community. In 2019 the Mayor will set out a plan for the Centre's future. The Centre might look slightly different - but its record of providing a space for sports and recreation, health and well-being, that meets the needs of both sports communities and local people will be secured.
We want you to help us shape a training plan for the Centre's comeback. Gym goers, Saturday swimmers, Sunday strollers, aspiring athletes, daredevil divers. Help the Centre achieve a new personal best.
Why 'On Your Marks!' ?
We recognise that there has been a lot of discussion and work exploring the Centre before now. However, with a future plan for the Centre being developed, now is the time to make sure your voice is heard.
On Your Marks...
Get Set...
The Mayor wants London to be the most socially integrated and active city in the world and sport has great power to bring people together and to improve lives.
Significant investment has been made in the Crystal Palace National Sports Centre in recent years to sustain the current operation. But to ensure it has a sustainable future, which delivers a range of sports across a range of participation pathways, it needs a new approach.
Work has begun to plan for a sustainable long-term future for the Centre; one which retains the Centre's ability to support a wide range of sporting facilities and activity and helps improve the environment in Crystal Palace Park.
The first step in developing this new plan has involved a review of the role the NSC plays in London's sports facility provision. This has looked at local and regional sports facilities, assessing the supply and demand, scale and quality. It has also explored future predicted trends for participation in different sports.
This work has confirmed the need for a range of facilities at the Centre that support:
sports at a range of levels
events of varying scales
accessible health and leisure facilities that meet the needs of local communities.
Crucially the Centre needs investment to sustain its future and to maximise new and existing activity. The next stage of work beginning now and taking place over the next 6 months will seek to develop a sustainable plan that helps deliver this ambition for the Centre.
In parallel, Bromley Council are developing a regeneration plan for the park, providing a great opportunity to bring about lasting change. A Crystal Palace Park Trust has been formed to manage and improve the park as a whole for the community and park users.
You can find more information here about the Regeneration Projects for Crystal Palace National Sports Centre
Between August 2018 and February 2019 our team hosted a wide range of community engagement events, including creative workshops and celebration events.
You can find a list of all the previous engagement stages below, with details of some of the outcomes from each. These events and activities have helped to shape the development of a future plan for Crystal Palace National Sports Centre and you can read about the outcomes and feedback received during each stage.
Previous Engagement Stages
Coached by Community!
The Coached by the Community series of events included two Pop-up engagement events and four facilitated workshops, where the public were invited to participate in activities to help inform a future plan for the Centre.
These sessions were developed to allow the community to support the On Your Marks! team to better understand current usage, existing assets, important values and key priorities for the Centre.
Click the button below to read a summary of issues and ideas explored in these sessions.
Trialling the Design Options
Held over four sessions in October, these facilitated events included presentations of draft studies identified by our design team, as well as a range of interactive activities inviting participants to offer constructive feedback, helping to shape their final development.
Click the button below to read more about the events and a summary of feedback generated during this stage of engagements.
Beam was a unique event, lighting up the past, present and future of Crystal Palace National Sports Centre.
For one night only, on the 5th of November, the exterior of The Lodge was transformed into an engaging spectacle, weaving together archival footage and bold graphic elements.
Visible throughout the park, Beam captured the attention of thousands during the annual fireworks display.
BEAM Film Credits
The Community Conference was a celebration of Crystal Palace National Sports Centre, and a chance for our team to share developed proposals for its future.
This built upon everything we had learned through previous engagement stages, and offered the public and Centre users an opportunity to learn more about the proposals and understand how their feedback had influenced their development.
Click the button below to read more about the event.
Community Conference Presentation
Below is a copy of the presentation delivered by our project team at the Community Conference, detailing proposals for the future of Crystal Palace National Sports Centre.
Click in the bottom right corner to view in fullscreen.
Coached by Community
Coached by the community included four public workshops from August 29th to September 5th
Each event was built around a series of interactive activities, reflecting on how participants make use of the Centre, the state of current facilities, and what changes they would like to see.
Common participant responses included:
A strong preference for enhancement of a multi-sports Centre
The need to deal with longstanding maintenance issues around key Centre facilities, including the Main Building roof, and changing facilities across the site
Interest in exploring new activities on site, including enhanced food & drink facilities, as well as music and outdoor events
A strong interest in building better connections between the NSC site and surrounding Crystal Palace Park
The Main Building
Participants raised current maintenance issues, including the roof. There was support for separating the wet and dry facilities within the building. The need for upgrades to changing facilities was highlighted. Improved way-finding and social facilities were also suggested.
Athletics Track and Stadium Seating
The need to retain the track was paramount. Opinions were split on the retention of the existing seating provision. Some respondents suggested the use of the bowl for non-sporting events to generate income, while others suggested a reduction of permanent seating to reflect analysis of sporting use. Better integration of the track and seating into the wider park, and improved access were highlighted.
Walkway / Indoor Athletics
There was a strong preference for maintaining an indoor track as part of the Centre in the future, with a mix of opinions on retaining the current building, or replacing with a new facility. Issues with the state of the current facility were highlighted. There was broad support in retaining the walkway, but issues for pedestrian access were raised.
Route from Train Station
The lack of a clear and safe route from the train station was highlighted by a number of participants. This included the lack of appropriate lighting. Better use of desire lines linking the facilities to surrounding transport options was highlighted.
A need for an appropriate level of parking on the NSC site was identified by participants, with an emphasis on disabled parking spaces and the need for flexible parking to accommodate larger occasional events.
Hospitality/Social Space
A number of participants highlighted the need for a social and hospitality space to serve the Centre, beyond the existing cafe facility. This was suggested to serve both the Main Building and surrounding facilities.
Sporting Heritage
The significant and long history of the Crystal Palace as a location for sport and competition was highlighted as a significant asset. Ways to memorialise and celebrate this heritage were suggested as a valuable to any future development.
The Trialling the Design Options events included four public workshops from October 10th to 17th.
Each event began with a presentation by our project team, presenting a range of design studies exploring approaches to development of Crystal Palace National Sports Centre. This was followed by a number of interactive activities where participants were able to offer their feedback to these studies and explore how they impacted the future of Centre.
Participants provided a great deal of detailed comments on each of the design studies. A number of the most common are included below:
The Main Building and Swimming Pools
Participants were broadly supportive of reconfiguring activities within the Main Building into related clusters and to creating greater division between the wet and dry sides of the building.
A majority of respondents expressed a desire to retain and improve the 25m pool facility, maintaining the 50m pool in its present configuration.
Participants were broadly in support of the reduction of the scale of permanent seating around the athletics stadium and in creating greater accessibility to the track to the surrounding facilities. Some participants noted a need to better understand how safety and security could be maintained during larger events.
The relocation of the indoor athletic facility to a purpose built space next to the outdoor athletics track was broadly supported by participants. There were some concerns about the length of this facility and how other facilities, including strength and conditioning, would integrate with this new facility, as well as comments highlighting the need to accommodate facilities currently housed in the Jubilee Stand.
Participants were largely in support of proposed improvements to routes across the NSC site, particularly the improved route linking the Centre to Crystal Palace Train Station.
Participants noted concern about the level of proposed parking illustrated within the studies presented.
Participants were largely welcoming of improved social facilities offered in the new central Hub space presented within the design studies. There were a mixture of comments regarding whether the Lodge and Hostel buildings should be retained as part of these facilities, with some participants in favour of retaining these and others keen to centralise these in the new Hub building.
Portrait of Penge, 1964, by Gilbert Tomes [from the collection of Screen Archive South East]
"Drone flight over London, Crystal Palace park" by This Way Up World, is licensed under CC BY 3.0
The Community Conference was the final public event as part of the On Your Marks! engagement programme.
Held on Saturday 9th February, the event was created as a celebration of Crystal Palace National Sports Centre. The event was designed to be a showcase of developed design studies building on previous consultation stages, offering the public and Centre users an opportunity to understand how their feedback had shaped the project team's development of a future proposal.
Alongside presentation boards displaying key sketched images of the developed proposals, there was a Speed Cage activity, colouring sheets for young people, balloons and other attractions.
Participants were able to discuss the illustrated proposals with the project team both before and after the primary presentation during the community conference. There were also short response forms available which allowed participants to score the proposals on questions concerning access and appeal, as well as provide any other comments.
Comments included in the response forms, and anecdotal conversation with project team facilitators are include thematically:
Broad Support for overall approach
A high proportion of participants expressed satisfaction with the proposals presented during the day, with particular positive opinions on improved social facilities contained within the hub space, as well as general commitments to the athletics and swimming facilities and range of external pitches.
Parking represented the primary topic of concern expressed by participants. There were a number of comments suggesting that the parking space within the illustrated overview images, while indicative, did not represent a sufficient level to support activity at the Centre. There was support for improved management of parking and drop-off areas.
A number of participants expressed satisfaction at the proposed retention and improvement to the 25m pool building, and related continuity of the 50m pool facility as a dedicated pool of this length.
There were a number of comments indicating disappointment at the scale of the climbing facilities illustrated within the proposals, although the bouldering and informal facilities were welcomed by some.
There was some concern about the process and timescales beyond the feasibility stage of the redevelopment process. While this was discussed within the presentation during the day, some written responses to the feedback form expressed an interest in ongoing sharing of information regarding later stages.
Continued Engagement
There were some concerns expressed that there was a need to share the proposals further with the wider Centre community, and that some form of ongoing exhibition might be valuable to doing this.
Questionnaire & Options Survey
Our online engagement is now closed. Thanks to everyone who took part.
All contributions will be included within final project reporting.
Privacy Policy: Pidgin Perfect
Privacy Policy: Mayor of London
The Mayor of London has carefully assembled a team with specific expertise for this project to maximise the opportunities it could offer to the local and wider community.
Meet the On Your Marks! team
Hawkins\Brown is at the forefront of British architecture and masterplanning. They are an internationally-renowned practice of over 280 employees. They are the AJ Architecture Practice of the Year 2016 and 2017, BD Infrastructure Architect of the Year 2016 and their work with Grade II listed Hackney Town Hall was commended in the Civic Trust Awards 2018. In 2014 they were shortlisted for the RIBA Stirling Prize for Park Hill, Europe's largest Grade II* listed building, and have been shortlisted for Masterplanning & Public Realm Architect of the year in 2017.
Hawkins\Brown will be the architect and lead designer of the On Your Marks! team. They will use their experience in managing multidisciplinary teams, engaging multiple stakeholders and consulting diverse communities to structure and manage the future plan for the Sports Centre.
Continuum Sport and Leisure Ltd (Continuum) has notable experience of working within the public, private and voluntary sectors of sport and leisure. Established in 2001, their experience spans: sports facilities strategies; playing pitch strategies; open space strategies; options appraisals; feasibility studies; business planning; service and contract reviews; funding applications; project and programme management and sport and physical activity strategy development.
Continuum will use this experience to help the wider project team determine an overall sporting vision and strategy for the On Your Marks! project'.
Pidgin Perfect are experts at delivering and supporting creative engagement strategies. They have a well established track record of working with citizen stakeholders to deliver innovative strategies which respond to the contextual qualities of place through dialogue and intervention. Pidgin Perfect provoke conversation and uncover unique citizen knowledge, enabling people to make meaningful contributions to a constructive dialogue.
Pidgin Perfect are responsible for the development of the community engagement strategy across the On Your Marks! project.
Turley provide a combined planning and specialist built heritage service which recognises complex and varied planning considerations alongside the climate of development within London and local boroughs.
Turley will work with the On Your Marks! team to provide planning inputs for the future plan for the Sports Centre.
Kinnear Landscape Architects are at the cutting edge of developing new ideas and research. They passionately believe in progressing a conceptual approach to the Art of Landscape Architecture. The development of new ideas and research has always been a significant aim, in parallel to the importance of high quality design. They have extensive experience of working within London and, crucially, in Crystal palace Park, to achieve innovative design solutions in the public realm. Over the past four years, the practice has had an active and ongoing involvement in the park to deliver the Crystal palace Regeneration Plan.
Kinnear Landscape Architects bring their wealth of detailed local knowledge to the On Your Marks! team.
Mott MacDonald are a global engineering, management and development consultancy focused on guiding its clients through many of the planet's most intricate challenges. They have 25 years of sports and leisure project experience covering new build, refurbishment, and extension, and have an unrivalled database of cost information to inform feasibility decision-making.
The Mott MacDonald team will bring their world-leading experience from UK and global projects, including the redevelopment of Twickenham Stadium and the new Wembley Stadium.
If you have any questions or comments you can contact us by email below.
hello@on-your-marks.co.uk
We will make sure to keep you informed of all forthcoming engagement events, and share information at key project stages.
Please select Email to confirm that you would like to hear from On Your Marks!:
On Your Marks! is part of the 2018 feasibility study for Crystal Palace National Sports Centre, commissioned by the Mayor of London
Copyright © Pidgin Perfect

redpajama_set_name: RedPajamaCommonCrawl


As far as I'm concerned, every word of this commercial was true. I participated in the taping of a series of commercial spots for ABC 33/40 and James Spann which aired 9 years ago. This is just further proof of my weather geekiness. Truly Mr. Spann is everything these folks said he was. Can you pick me out?
"Most reliable severe weather coverage in North Central Alabama" Go Mike, you are a celebrity!
I remember those glasses. I had a pair just like them a few years earlier. And your hair was so buzzed!
That's the problem with growing old, Sharp! We have to look back at urselves inmore and more decades of looking dorky. The 70's, 80's, and now even the 1990's.
No caveats...Spann is the man!


We provide attic/loft, room conversion and extension services to the Chessington market.
Are you thinking about house extensions in Chessington because You are feeling like your house is running out of room?
When you are looking to build a house extension in Chessington, hire Loft Conversion London. Certainly you will be hiring one of the best company around.


text:
"It doesn't get any better than this."
Richard "Dick" W. Swete
On November 4, 2000, while directing the Serapis site investigation, Dick Swete succumbed to an acute attack of malaria.
Dick spent his early years in Guam, but returned to his native California to attend high school. He then enlisted in the Army and served two years in Vietnam. He spent seven years with Army Intelligence, earned a bachelors degree from Campbell University, and retired from the military in 1976.
He received his masters degree in nautical archaeology at Texas A&M. Afterward, he worked for his Ph.D. at the College of William and Mary.
It was in Texas that many of us in INA met and grew to like Dick. He was intelligent, inquisitive, perceptive and charming and loved people. Always up for an adventure, Dick continues to be the first staff member many of us think of when something new is brewing.
When he and I first met as graduate students in 1977, he said he wanted to stay out in the field, where the action was. Perfectly capable as a project director, he usually preferred to let someone else do the administration and take the bows as he stayed with the action. Never one for the ordinary, Dick would almost fall asleep if everything was going well.
Full of good ideas, organizational and diplomatic skills, he worked tirelessly until the new shipwreck investigation was humming smoothly. "Can do easy" was his creed. When something went awry, Dick would say, "It doesn't get any better than this," rally everyone around, and lead the way to a successful finish.
— Dr. Warren Riess, for INS Magazine
Dr. Jean Aime Rakotoarisoa and Dick Swete in Madagascar planning the next steps of the project in 1999.
Team Alumni
Nicole Courissaka
Student of University of Toamasina - 2000 Expedition Team
Greg Cook
Maritime Archaeologist - 2000 Expedition Team
Dr. Paul Hundley
Archaeologist - 2000 Expedition Team
Monica Hunter
Anthropologist - 2000 Expedition Team
Dr. Douglas McElvogue
British Researcher, Serapis Project - 2000 Expedition Team
Mike Meyers
Film Maker- 2000 Expedition Team
Eric Randrianantenaina
Student of University of Antananarivo - 2000 Expedition Team
Dr. Sheli Smith
Archaeologist / Museology - 2000 Expedition Team
Antonia Symes
Archaeological Conservator - 2000 Expedition Team
International team of Americans, Australians, French and Malagasy archaeologists and divers
who worked on the 2000 expedition to Madagascar.
History of the HSM Serapis
Expedition & Documentary
Endorsements & Benefactors
Richard "Dick" Swete
Founder of the Serapis Project
The late Richard Swete, historian and nautical archaeologist, established the Serapis Project. John Paul Jones and his ships fascinated Mr. Swete even as a young boy. His lifelong goal was for all of Jones' ships to be found and archeologically investigated. Over the years, because of his interests and abilities, Mr. Swete was an active team member on more archaeological shipwreck projects than anyone else in the world. His work ethic under duress, observational abilities, and perception are legendary to those involved in the field of nautical archaeology. In addition to his experience in the field, he held a Master's Degree in Nautical Archaeology from Texas A&M University and he was PhD candidate at the College of William and Mary. He retired from the U.S. Army with the rank of captain and a veteran of the Vietnam War. After fulfilling his dream of finding the SERAPIS, Richard Swete died while working on the Serapis Project in 2000. He is survived by his wife, Sharon, children Rich and Erin Swete, Amy and Dave Pruett, Lynn and Jeff Blazy, seven grandchildren, his mother June Swete and many siblings, nieces and nephews.
Michael Tuttle
Board of Directors - Project Director
Michael Tuttle holds a B.A. in history from the State University of New York at Buffalo, an M.A. in history from the University of Maine, and a Masters of Literature in maritime studies from the Scottish Institute of Maritime Studies at St. Andrews University, Scotland. He is currently working on a PhD in American history at the Pennsylvania State University. He has over a decade of experience as a field maritime archaeologist and obtained a wide range of experience in such varied areas as the Great Lakes, the Atlantic seaboard, New England coastal rivers, the Gulf Coast, Western Rivers, and the Caribbean and the Pacific, as well as historic wreck sites in Scotland, the Netherlands and the Channel Islands in Europe, and Madagascar and Ghana in Africa. He has participated in well over 100 archaeological projects since beginning his professional career in 1995. Mr. Tuttle is certified and a member of the Register of Professional Archaeologists (ROPA 1999).
mct154@psu.edu
The Late Dr. David Switzer
Former Executive Director of the Serapis Project
Gave Dick Swete the opportunity to have his first hands-on nautical archaeological experience as a field school student at the Defence site in Penobscot Bay, Maine. Later he and Dick worked together on a underwater site in New Hampshire and at the Falkland Islands where Dick's underwater engineering experience was a major factor in the recovery of the bow of the clipper ship Snow Squall. When the Serapis project was in its early stages, Switzer, then a department chair and professor of history at Plymouth State University, made the arrangements for the Institute for New Hampshire Studies at the university to become the Project fiscal agent. Although partially retired after 39 years of teaching history, Switzer continued as the Consulting Nautical Archaeologist for New Hampshire. In addition to co-authoring Snow Squall: The Last American Clipper Ship, he published numerous articles and contributed book chapters. As Executive Director, Switzer acted in an advisory capacity and oversaw the fiscal aspects of the project.
Amy and Dave Pruett
Amy is the daughter of Richard Swete, the founder of the Serapis Project. After Mr. Swete's death, Amy and her husband Dave took on active roles to ensure the continuation of the Serapis Project. Amy is the Secretary of the Serapis Project Board of Directors. For Amy this project is like "coming home" after growing up surrounded by archaeologists and historians. Mr. Swete continues to teach!
aswete@SerapisProject.org
Dr. Jean Aime Rakotoarisoa
Director of Instituut de Civilisations /Musee d'art et d'Archeology of the University of Antananarivo - Emeritus
Dr. Jean Aime Rakotoarisoa is the liaison between the Serapis Project through the University of New Hampshire studies and the University of Antananarivo. Without Dr. Rakotoarisoa the Serapis Project would not have been possible. Since its inception Dr. Rakotoarisoa has been the knowledgeable guide and leader of the Serapis Project in Madagascar.
Dr. Chantal Radimilahy
Director of Instituut de Civilisations /Musee d'art et d' Archeology of the University of Antananarivo
Dr. Radimilahy is an integral part of the Serapis Project. She has been a part of the project since the beginning. She was invited by the Cotsen Institute of Archaeology at UCLA to speak about the findings of the Serapis Project in April 2000. Dr. Radimilahy is a senior lecturer in Archaeology at the University in Madagascar. In addition, she works full time at the University Museum, undertaking archaeological research in many parts of the islands, and ensures the preservation of the archaeological collection. Dr. Radimilahy has bachelors in history and a master's degree in Archaeology from University of Madagascar. Also she holds a Ph. D in archaeology from Uppsala University in Sweden where she concentrated in her research about an ancient Swahili town in Northwestern Madagascar. In Paris Sorbonne, Dr. Radimilahy, prepared a Doctoral thesis about ancient iron metallurgy in Madagascar.
Richard "Kelly" Bumpass
Maritime Archaeologist / Diver
Kelly is A.B.T. from the program in maritime history and archaeology from East Carolina University, and holds a B.A. in anthropology from Texas A&M University. His thesis topic focuses on the archaeological investigations of the Stonewall wreck off Bermuda. He is also seasonally employed by Southern Oceans Archaeological Research (SOAR) St. Augustine, Florida and a contract archaeologist for Tidewater Archaeological Research of Washington, North Carolina, as well as Panamerican Consultants of Memphis Tennessee. Mr. Bumpass has experience on numerous underwater sites in the Africa, Caribbean and the U.S. East Coast. Due to his experience and knowledge in the field. Currently he is writing his masters thesis in preparation for its submittal.
Jason Burns
Project Archaeologist
Mr. Burns is a Project Manager and Principal Investigator with Southeastern Archaeological Research, Inc. Maritime Division. Jason is a US Navy veteran with two professional book publications in the Springer Series of Underwater Archaeology. In 2003, Mr. Burns became the first underwater archaeologist hired by the Georgia Department of Natural Resources (DNR). He created a statewide program for underwater archaeology and was promoted to the position of Deputy State Archaeologist - Underwater. Mr. Burns' professional career has focused on submerged cultural resources management and public education.
Norine Carroll
Archaeological Diver & Conservation Specialist
Ms. Norine Carroll will act as an archaeological diver, in addition to serving as a conservation specialist for the project. Ms. Carroll holds a MA in Museum Studies with a specialty in object conservation from the State University of New York at F.I.T. Ms. Carroll is equally at home on land, or beneath the sea. Her many skills as an archaeologist have enabled her to work on every facet of both maritime and terrestrial archaeological projects along the eastern seaboard of United States, as well as in the Caribbean, Asia and the Near East. She has worked as a freelance conservator, museum consultant, archivist, and field archaeologist, since 1992. Her position as conservator at The Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of Natural History and The National Museum of the American Indian exposed her to archaeological and ethnographic collections from across the world, with a special focus on the Americas. Norine is currently honored to hold the position of Collections Manager/Research Associate at The Archaeology Institute at the University of West Florida (UWF) in Pensacola, Florida. There she is managing the numerous archaeological collections that UWF has excavated from both maritime and terrestrial archaeology sites from the Gulf Coast Region of the United States as well the state of Georgia.
Michael Krivor
Dive Supervisor/ Maritime Archaeologist
Mr. Krivor received his M.A. in Maritime History and Nautical Archaeology at East Carolina University in 1998. The subject of his thesis was the 1993 excavation of an 18th-century British merchantman off the northwest reef of Bermuda. Mr. Krivor also holds a B.A. from Humboldt State University in Aquatic Archaeology. He has extensive experience in maritime archaeology and submerged cultural resource management with a strong background in remote sensing and historic ship construction. Remote-sensing specialization's include comprehensive work with magnetometers, side scan sonar and Differential Global Positioning Systems (DGPS). Certified by the Register of Professional Archaeologists (ROPA) since 1999, Mr. Krivor has authored over 65 reports and has presented sixteen papers at professional regional and international conferences. Mr. Krivor is currently the Maritime Project Manager for Southeastern Archaeological Research, Inc. (SEARCH) of Jonesville, Florida.
Justin McNesky
Dive Instructor
Mr. McNesky has been a dive instructor for over 16 years, holding multiple dive instructor certifications including, rebreather, mixed gas blending, extended range diving and advanced rescue techniques. With these qualifications, Mr. McNesky has certified over 900 divers, including government agency rescue teams. Mr. McNesky received his BA in anthropology, with a concentration in archaeology from Eckerd College, St Petersburg Florida. Since that time, he has worked on numerous archaeological projects throughout the United States, Central America and the Caribbean. Mr. McNesky is currently the senior diver/archaeologist for Southeastern Archaeological Research (SEARCH) located in Jonesville Florida.
Prichard Smith
Prichard Smith is a documentary filmmaker. He was an associate and friend of Mr. Swete who enlisted Mr. Smith's service to document the Serapis Project for fundraising purposes, using both new video footage and footage provided from previous visits to Madagascar. After Mr. Swete's death Mr. Smith began an innovative filmmaking effort, aimed at creating public interest and support for the completion of the project that had been one of Dick's lifelong dreams. The result is an on-going documentary film, still titled The Serapis Project, which details Dick's career, his efforts toward finding the H.M.S Serapis, and his untimely death. The film has been supported entirely by Mr. Smith's personal funds, modest private donations, and the generous gifts of services by interested parties.
Smith studied at The University of Memphis, where he received a B.A. in communications. In 2001 his short documentary films Two Hundred Dollars on E-bay and Serapis Project, tied for first place in the Memphis Independent Film Festival. Now living in Brooklyn, he co-founded GO Pictures with Steve Loff. Most recent works include co-producing "Eviction," a short doc that premiered this past summer at the 9th Annual Brooklyn International Film Festival, and co-directing "Mr.Fascination," a feature-length doc currently in post-production.
Copyright © 2008 - The Serapis Project. All Rights Reserved. | Website Design: Barnett Cox & Associates


If you have a missing or damaged tooth, a crown or bridge may be the solution!
Crowns and bridges are great solution if you have a damaged tooth, or if one or more teeth are missing. Both crowns and bridges are fixed in place, and made of natural-looking porcelain, perfectly matched to your teeth! Depending on your specific situation, Dr. Bundalo may recommend either a crown or a bridge.
When would I want a porcelain crown?
Porcelain crowns are a great solution for many issues. A porcelain crown can be used to restore a damaged tooth, prevent a weak tooth from fracturing, cover a poorly shaped tooth or cover a tooth that has undergone a root canal treatment. Porcelain crowns are perfectly matched, both in shape and color, to your existing natural teeth.
Additionally, porcelain crowns can be attached using dental implants, for a very stable fit. These are referred to as dental implant crowns.
When would I want a bridge?
In certain circumstances, a dental bridge may be recommending if you are missing one or more teeth. In some cases, you may have the option of a dental implant crown instead of a bridge. Call us to schedule a free consultation with Dr. Bundalo!
Can porcelain crowns and bridges help with my bite?
Yes! When teeth are missing or misshaped, this can lead to many issues with the jaw and bite. Dr. Bundalo has extensive experience with the masticatory system (bones and muscles of the jaw) and can make recommendations for adjustments that can lead to a better bite, and help with pain and discomfort of the jaw.


Along with partial removable dentures and full removable dentures, our office also offers night guards. A night guard is a removable acrylic appliance intended to relieve temporomandibular joint (TMJ) pain and other effects of grinding the teeth (bruxism). It is usually worn at night to prevent grinding during sleep. Our office offers both soft night guards and hard night guards which gives patients the option to choose what works best for them.


Post anything you wish to say about the server here!
A forum to chat and have fun!
Not a member of The Golden Order? Post all other requests here!
Tried my new RPG? Post here!
Post any suggestions to the game here!


Immaculate both in presentation and flavor, 1221's focus remains on the food, and Shanghainese cuisine. Renovated from an old Chinese mansion and set back in a secluded alleyway, the atmosphere encapsulates good old fashioned Shanghai dining while graciously avoiding modern day pretentiousness. We recommend their braised pork with vegetables, crispy duck and the Ba Bao Cha (Eight Treasure Tea). If you're planning a group meal, call in advance to reserve one of the private dining rooms in back.