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It's time for the Seahawks to solve their pass rush
March 19th, 2020 | Written by Rob Staton
This is still no time to panic. As Sea Mode noted in a comment in yesterday's piece, the Seahawks still have plenty of cap flexibility. They can get done what they need to get done.
Recently I've argued the Seahawks shouldn't be judged until we know what moves they've actually made. Because they will do something to fix the pass rush. Then, and only then, are we in a proper position to analyse.
Now having got all of that out of the way — let's get to the point.
It's time for the Seahawks to start making some moves.
We're four days into free agency. This was a free agency period that required action.
The Seahawks are good enough to make the playoffs consistently thanks to the quarterback. They're not good enough to go much further than the wild card or the divisional round. That has shown to be true in the last two years.
They need an injection of talent.
The patient building of the previous two off-seasons was understandable. They had barely any draft picks and the cap room was limited as they cut veterans and tried to freshen up the culture and regain their identity.
After two years of re-setting — now was the time. They had picks and money to spend. They have a quarterback who turns 32 in November and is playing the best football of his career. You have some pieces but not enough.
In particular the pass rush and defense in general is holding the team back. It's not good enough. They ranked among the worst teams for sacks, pressures and hurries. They miss too many tackles and the run defense is poor — especially at the perimeter.
That needed fixing this off-season.
They needed to channel their 2013 form. The trade for Percy Harvin followed by deals with Michael Bennett and Cliff Avril. A statement of intent. Genuine quality added.
It would've been unrealistic to expect that level of success (although the Harvin trade was an expensive bust). But an attempt to try and replicate it? That's not unreasonable.
People regularly mention how patient the Seahawks are at the start of free agency. Not in 2013. Not in 2015 when they traded for Jimmy Graham. Not in 2011 when they needed to give the rebuild a shot in the arm and signed Sidney Rice, Zach Miller, Robert Gallery and Tarvaris Jackson while also re-signing Brandon Mebane.
So far the Seahawks have been relatively inactive. They've signed three offensive linemen to replace, presumably, Mike Iupati, George Fant and Germain Ifedi. It remains to be seen if B.J. Finney, Cedric Ogbuehi and Brandon Shell are capable of improving or even maintaining the O-line performance from 2019.
They've also re-signed Jarran Reed and added Irvin, who turns 33 in November.
Compare this to some of the other teams in the NFL:
— The Ravens traded for Calais Campbell for a fifth round pick then signed Michael Brockers
— The Cardinals aggressively moved to add DeAndre Hopkins for a bargain price
— The Colts, needing D-line reinforcements, stepped up and traded for DeForest Buckner then paid him a handsome new contract
— The Bills supported their quarterback by trading for Stefon Diggs
— The Eagles have signed Javon Hargrave and traded for Darius Slay
— The Falcons actively created cap room to sign Dante Fowler
— The Broncos traded for Jurell Casey
— The 49ers solved a problem by re-signing Arik Armstead and acquiring a top-15 pick for a player (Buckner) they felt they couldn't retain
There's also been a lot of reckless, unwise spending too. Nobody should hope for the Seahawks to start doing that. Yet some of the teams above have been pro-active, found value and solved problems.
What have the Seahawks done? Hedge certain positions and tried to fill holes on the O-line with players who physically 'fit' but don't have a proven track record.
It could work out well in the end. They might get their guys at an affordable price. Is it fair to start wondering though — is a bit of bargain hunting adequate? The options are getting lighter now. For the sake of saving enough money to sign Brandon Shell or keep together a fairly mediocre core of restricted free agents, wouldn't they just be better off going after the guys they want?
People often say you don't win the Super Bowl by winning free agency. Yet a year ago the Niners spent big money on Kwon Alexander then traded for Dee Ford. The Chiefs traded for and paid Frank Clark. Green Bay reached the NFC Championship game after spending money on two new pass rushers.
It doesn't guarantee success but a pro-active free agency for a good team can sure help.
Jadeveon Clowney seems to be stuck in no man's land — wanting a big contract that nobody is prepared to offer yet seemingly unwilling to accept whatever it is Seattle's presenting. Likewise, the Seahawks apparently aren't sweetening the deal to get it over the line.
Mike Garafolo says the Seahawks are speaking to a number of other edge rushers just in case Clowney moves on. Who exactly? Everson Griffen is out there. Is he going to setup the oldest pass rushing duo in the league with Irvin? Garafolo also says nothing is happening regarding a Yannick Ngakoue trade — presumably because the asking price is too high. I can't get excited about the prospect of Matt Judon — a former fifth round pick coming from a scheme that generally does a great job manufacturing pressure. As he's been tagged, he'd also cost a major salary too — unless you're prepared to add him as a one year rental on the tag.
It'll be a positive if Clowney is retained. The status quo from last year isn't enough though and the options in the draft are severely limited. It's at least somewhat positive that they have the flexibility to create more cap space — having spent a large chunk on a mediocre group of restricted players.
The Seahawks can't be in the same place in 12 months time — on the periphery compared to the real contenders and needing a big off-season.
There's still time to get things sorted. After all, the Chiefs didn't trade for Clark until right before the draft.
I'm not sure this team has the luxury to be able to wait this out to that extent though. The 2018 Chiefs were better than the 2019 Seahawks. Seattle can't afford to miss out.
I can only sit here and say 'patience' to you for so long. In part I hope by posting this it provokes some kind of reverse psychology. Eventually there needs to be some action. If Clowney wants $20m and the Seahawks are offering about $18m — was it really worth signing Irvin or Oguehi? Why not just get it done?
Now's the time. Otherwise they're going to go into the draft handcuffed to a massive, glaring need in the worst D-line draft for years.
475 Responses to "It's time for the Seahawks to solve their pass rush"
Honest analysis. To my eye, this defense still needs speed terribly. I love KJ, but he's getting old. We need people that eat up space in that LB room. I think they need to be aggressive at finding a solution for WILL back up. Not convinced of Cody Barton at all. Bobby needs a hunter by his side.
Looking more and more likely they go after an Okwara or YGM type player to hedge against a (potentially) sub-optimal FA. I'd be okay with Irvin, Okwara or YGM, and Clowney. But that assortment would certainly not make our pass rush "scary." We may have to look to next offseason to really add another key LEO? I dunno, I'm just spitballin here. Would love others' thoughts.
Okwara — yes
YGM — cannot see it
I'm really hoping that Willie Gay might fall to us at the end of R2 due to off-field concerns. We need that speed.
Hughz says:
Let's give Cody B a little slack. He was a rookie last year and probably thinking too much. I have a feeling he will come around.
I think it's only fair he has slack. But let's also be honest about how poorly he played and the severe need to improve in year two to warrant any faith going forward.
Somehow I feel like they are trying to land both Clowney and Yannick at the same time so that neither one gains a ton of leverage as the "last pass rusher available".
It could either be a roaring success or an epic fail. Let's hope for the latter.
But I agree, it's well past time to make something happen and not be left wondering "what if".
*let's hope for the former
I think they want Clowney but he won't budge on his price and it's created a stalemate.
I don't know if they want Ngakoue but if they do it's going to cost them.
I was just remembering the Pauline report that we were trying to trade for him. So I think we know they are interested, but it might simply be too expensive in terms of draft picks and contract.
Either way, there is time for JAX to come down on their ask. But we need to lock up Clowney now.
Clark didn't get traded until well after the rush passed. So maybe things just need to play out a little for Ngakoue.
I really think clowney is as good as gone. Pete and john has a set number and if he is asking more they have no problem walking away. but when your QB is in the prime of his career. they are acting like they dont know what they are doing
GoHawksDani says:
I really hope they don't just want Clowney.
Clowney – Reed – Ford – Irvin/Green/Collier is not better than last year :-/
Agreed. It's not good enough.
Justaguy says:
Leonard Floyd seemed like a good option if the JAX price was too steep for Yannick Ngakoue. Not sure why that option wasn't better pursued or maybe the other LA team just outplayed us.
Probably because he can't rush the passer.
He was able to in college but in Chicago that may have been the case. LA signed him with the hope he can replace Fowler Jr. Our other option is now Griffen who is an aged pass rusher but if his deal is less than Floyd's then I can accept why Floyd wasn't an option. Not many cheaper options than Floyd if that is the direction they want to go.
CaptainJack says:
Nobody cares how many sacks Avril and Bennett had their rookie and sophomore seasons.
Avril had 9.5 sacks the season before signing and 11 sacks the year before.
Bennett had 9 sacks the season before signing.
Neither were unknown scrubs when signing.
EranUngar says:
They were not unknown scrubs but they did not cost anywhere near the top of the market. You can claim the flat market for DEs in 2013 but even their extensions after winning the SB where 2nd tear money at best.
In 10 years the Seahawks did not pay top money to a DL or OL player. At some point we may need to recognize this as a trend rather than a fluke. (see sub 32 inch corners or TEF…)
SeahawkeyezSubj80 says:
Right on. Feel confident that this front office will get it done. But starting to feel that teaching your kid how to drive and will they apply the proper braking going into a turn. 🙆♂🙆♂🙆♂
I suspect if non-fan outsiders were to handicap their best guess how the NFCW will line up at season's end it would be Niners, Cards, Hawks, and Rams based on conventional wisdom. We'll see.
Now that Gurley is free and seeking revenge apparently how much buzz will we have to endure till a physical can be done to see if he's worth any investment? The media guys are already starting to push a Seahawk marriage.
Nothing until the pass rush is addressed.
Plus, there are plenty of cheap, serviceable RBs in this upcoming draft.
Not interested in Gurley at all.
Complete spent force.
I agree that he's likely used up for the most part, but you know fans…………..
DJ 1/2 Way (Sea/PDX) says:
No Girly Men…..Must be healthy for playoffs.
Jamho3 says:
LOL please! Cards dont pass SEA, even if SEA loses 2 more & Cards win 2 more. Need to see much much more.
This is way outside the realm of facts.
But I wonder if Clowney is reeling personally because his market isn't what he thinks it should be. He fought his way out of Houston. He stipulated he'd agree to a trade to Seattle with the provision he wouldn't be franchise tagged. He said he loves Seattle but wants to explore.
And now he's got a cold market.
Yes, yes, I know, boo hoo he'll only make $17m instead of $21m a year. But still. It has to be terribly disappointing to not have the flood of suitors with blank checks after the tough year he's had.
Oh. And he gutted it out – literally – through an injury this year too.
He did an admirable job "gutting it out", yet the "lazy" rap still follows him if you read/listen reports. It may be that they want to ignore his effort because it was a "contract year", but if it ends up with the Seahawks and a two year semi-prove it contract he should still be highly motivated it that's a factor in reality.
Why do you believe the # is 17m? Also gotta think total grtd is more so a driver?
Simo says:
IMO, this is exactly what's going on with Clowney. He's drawn a line in the sand and every day that goes by it gets harder for him to cross that line. If PC/JS won't budge, he may end up taking the best deal he gets from a different team, any different team.
Some people are speculating that the Hawks are gaining leverage in this situation the longer it draws out, but that may not be the case. Regardless, its getting to be nail biting time for John and Pete, as most of the top tier guys are off the board already.
Almost a game of Chicken. The other Seahawks moves we expect to open up cap space may be delayed until negotiations with Mr Clowney are complete. More leverage for the Hawks saying this is all we can pay….then they cut three guys and make the second move.
Agree. So much duplicity is probably involved.
It feels like they're using this offseason to add depth across the board so they can give themselves flexibility to get BPA for positions of need in the draft. We'll if there are any trades, but this could be a free agency period of hedging, and hopefully Clowney signing.
That being said, one name I'm wondering if we'll see pop up is Jordan Jenkins. From what I've read, it sounds like he's a pass rushing specialist who would be more rotational. But his last two seasons, he's had 7 and 8 sacks respectively while being the physical profile that the Hawks look for (34in arms, 1.58 10 yard split, 4.32 short shuttle when he came out of college).
Rob, have you much of a look at Jordan Jenkins?
Well, I'm just going to be honest Russ.
1. I don't think that's their plan but if it is, it sucks.
2. Jenkins is a player I'd sign for about $3m to be in a rotation and nothing more.
I don't come here for sugar-coated takes, so that's fine with me!
But unless they make a move soon, I'm mentally preparing myself for a Clowney signing, more hedge moves, and a big investment coming in the draft.
If that happens — my prediction for 2020 will be a repeat of 2019.
Seahawks always try to fill out the depth chart before the draft. They cover everything, even if it is weak coverage, then have more freedom in the draft. Call it BPA or more accurately the best value from a group or cluster.
When we are sure they are doing the BPA is when they trade up typically in the second round or later. Please, please CHE from LSU. Hot deal in the 3rd, good value in the second. He will be a 1st round pick in everybodies redraft if not a Hall of Famer.
Bryan C says:
Rob as always your opinion and analysis are spot on. It does come down to opportunity cost and there really is not an elite fall back option if Clowney doesn't return.
In another note, any opinion on the release of Gurley and could you see the Seahawks being interested? He was allegedly number 1 player on their board during his draft year, do you consider him a hedge until our RB regain full health?
Todd Gurley in 2015 was amazing and quite rightly at the top of their board.
Todd Gurley in 2020 is finished, a spent force and would be a total waste of money.
Ukhawk says:
To sum up: Stop being cute. Get on with it.
God of Thunder says:
They've made multiple moves already.
These things take a while, as we've been waiting to see what other teams were doing. No time to panic! JS has cold blood in his veins. Exactly what we want.
jdtjohnson says:
as much as I love this front office, that is one thing I get frustrated with both in the draft and in FA. They tend to get too cute. It's like they feel the continuous need to prove they're the smartest guys in the room. I'm confident Clowney comes to back to Seattle(probably at 19M-ish, split the speculated difference), but I don't have much faith in anything beyond that. I do hope…but don't feel confident in it
Easy Answers Hard Choices says:
I completely agree. With some of the head-scratching moves/picks they've made in the past, I wonder if JS/PC chose a different path just to prove that they're smarter than everyone else. Which, by definition is supreme arrogance.The constant trade-down-get more picks strategy – basically saying "we can pick better players at 44 than you can pick at 27". Christine Michael, Malik McDowell, Rashaad Penny – lots of head scratchers here. The high-profile trades that didn't work out as planned – Percy Harvin & Jimmy Graham.
The last three drafts have produced three high-quality positional players – DK, Chris Carson, and Will Dissly (no Marquise Blair and Cody Barton do not get the benefit of the doubt – they basically did nothing last year).
People make a lot of their ability to mine the later rounds – but the reality is getting a Chris Carson in the 7th round is luck, pure and simple.
So JS/PC are not smarter than everyone else. Slavishly devoted fan bases in every city think their coaches/GMs are the smartest ones in the room – this is largely a function of fawning and pandering local sportswriters and broadcasters who don't dare criticize (bad advertising!). And just because we have the quintessential "franchise quarterback" doesn't mean it's manifest destiny we'll return to the Super Bowl, because, well the "clock is ticking". Ask Aaron Rodgers, Philip Rivers, Drew Brees et al played in? Two, I believe over a combined career of almost 50 seasons.
JS/PC are simply "average". What we're seeing here is the slow, painful, inexorable reversion to the mean. So rather than hope they can outsmart their opposition beyond any reasonable expectation, a more realistic expectation would be that they follow the 49ers tried-and-true model. Suck and under perform horribly for five + years. Accumulate high draft picks. Draft well ( takes time, mistakes will be made – again we're NOT SMARTER than anyone else) and over time, build a good team. And then succeed. Rinse and repeat. This is the circle of life in football – and to suggest the Seahawks can cheat death because they are "smarter" is simply naive….
What you're seeing
I realize that for every Christine Michael you can counter with Chris Carson. Every Chris Harper can be countered with Tyler Lockett.
Trading down is not about being smarter.
I'll keep saying this until the penny drops.
They likely would've drafted McDowell and Penny at their original picks. They didn't trade down, then act surprised, then take someone else. Those were calculated moves. They more than likely got the player they wanted plus additional stock.
All for rigerous analysis but I believe that PC & JS have shown us they are much better than average even over the last 4 seasons. To even be in the position to be able to afford to improve by signing a tier 1 DE is well done.
off.grid.iron says:
Your posts smacks of hard logic and years of experience. I respect where you're coming from. I get a little down on the drivers too. But wow….I don't wanna be in a life raft with you, EAHC. You strike me as the one guy who'd be all in for cannibalizing my legs after the first 12 minutes.
If PC/JS are average, the team is average. If you don't buy into the regime…what are you a fan of? The logo?
Strategicdust says:
I'll go ahead and and say I'm very disappointed. It feels like outside of a few cheap signings that everything is on hold for Clowney. This is what I didn't want to happen, where is the aggressive, bold moves? Why haven't the Seahawks been able to swing deals for Campbell, Brockers or Casey? Why haven't we gotten younger and faster on defense with some of the players who have been dealt or were free agents? This feels like squandered time and opportunity by the front office when it should have been their time to shine. If they don't get Clowney to sign quickly, they'll be forced to either sign older players or trade their draft choices and hope they can improve defensively. I, for one, don't want to take chances on the middling defensive line talent available in the draft. Here's hoping they do it quickly and well rather than hear excuses all next year for why they didn't get better.
Coach says:
Rams just released Clay Matthews. He was still able to create pressure last year. What are your thoughts on him?
I think he could help if he wouldn't cost too much!
Go Hawks!!
Hard pass.
He's 34 in May. They've signed Irvin. We don't need the oldest pass rush in the league.
SwissHawk says:
…plus it's Clay Matthews. Some players just don't belong in a Seahawks uniform.
Think of the children please no Clay!
Rob I think you've lost your touch.
It's been 15 whole minutes since you posted your piece and no moves by the Hawks.
Be honest, were you trying to give the Hawks a psychic wink by posting?
It takes two signatures to make a deal. We don't know which side is holding things up. I'm gonna chill with an espresso. If you can call it chilling.
If we don't get Clowney, I really hope the Seahawks don't force it and pay extra money for average pass rushers. I would rather have them just punt pass rush for one more year, spend the money on upgrading other positions.
The Seahawks have a multi year window here, we don't have to get it all done this year. Sometimes things don't fall your way in free agency/trade market, its important not to waste money on inefficient options.
Most likely the pass rush class next year will be a lot better, which will in turn will drive down the price for free agent pass rushers. I am fine with them waiting another year, meanwhile upgrading other positions heavily.
Gaux Hawks says:
Don't get too cute. Sign Clowney. Get Yannick. Draft Ruiz and Davis.
I agree 100% time to just get it done before things get desperate and you end up having to overpay im a trade scenario. They have the cap space to get Clowney and Griffen just get it done and move onto the rest of the team and draft.
king. says:
They don't have any space left.
Can they create more? Yes. Any team can.
FWIW….
Corbin Smith
@CorbinSmithNFL
I'm not sure who the third team in the mix is, but reports out there indicating Tennessee and Seattle right now competing to sign Clowney. There's a mystery suitor still vying for him as well.
2:33 PM · Mar 19, 2020
I'm not saying this isn't legit. But how come Corbin Smith is tweeting so much apparent breaking news and has any of it proven to be legit yet?
Greg Haugsven says:
Most of the time this would be Clowneys agent trying to stir things up.
hawkdawg says:
Stir things up with whom? Wouldn't the teams involved pretty much know who is in the mix?
Agree. I don't understand "reporting on reports". Why not just retweet the report or credit who's reporting?
Unless it's not legit…
Maybe Clowney's agent trying to nudge things?
I have a weird feeling about smith.
I asked him his sources and he said as a journalist he can't reveal them.
I thought he was just a beat writer.
I would've just ignored the tweet rather than spell it out, but yeah he's not going to reveal his source.
I'm just always suspicious when a local writer with a small following starts posting daily free agent rumours. Doesn't mean he doesn't have a source. But when you're going down that route on twitter, you need a few hits to warrant faith.
I guess, he phoned with Josina Anderson.
Truth hurts says:
I don't know what everyone thinks but sometimes I feel Pete believes he can coach up anybody, no matter age/lack of talent. That his "way" superceded pure talent. I'm not ever convinced JS is 100% on board with this philosophy. If he was pulling the trigger, my hunch is we'd have signed bigger talent by now.
I don't think it's that. But it's all speculation anyway that gets us nowhere. For all we know it's the other way around.
Corbins podcast is pretty good. Think he works for sports illustrated and went to the combine and ask questions to the team. Assume he has some legit connections.
I don't assume anything.
And Sports Illustrated isn't Sports Illustrated any more.
DAWGfan says:
Teams who have taken on a lot of $ the past few days are going to be looking to unload salary, Judon with Baltimore being one. Rob who else do you think may be available? Hawks can take on salary so they can take advantage of a salary dump.
Good point. So……if we lose Clowney, what are your thoughts on plan B, Rob? Or is there a legit plan B?
There's a plan A, B, C and plan "D": aka the Draft.
Hoping for one of the first 3😂
Remember Rome wasn't built in a day.
We must not forget what transpired the last off season that allowed them to reach to where they are today. JS & Co are quite adept at replicating an even greater off season this year. Their shrewd approach is somewhat nerve wrecking, but it does bring about positive results.
I would say this, allow JS & Co play their hand. Patiently wait, as they carry out their plan to restore the pass rush to what is needed to get to the SB. Free Agency is only the beginning of their quest to do so.
Sorry, but no.
They needed to be active this off-season. Playing the long game last year delivered Ziggy Ansah. Playing the long game doesn't guarantee someone is going to trade you Clowney for a R3. Relying on the draft led to Collier.
They need to get this done.
Clowney is not going anywhere. They will get it done. It just may take a day or two to do so. Not at our time table.
Then get it done.
Nobody can dispute the following point.
If they want Clowney as a huge priority as they say, and the difference is 17-18m per year or 20m per year… just don't sign Ogbuehi. Just get it done.
If I were GM I'd be on the same page as you are. But I bet JS is looking at the week the Rams are having (flushing their roster) and saying to anyone he trusts immensely, "See, that's why I make the decisions I do." Somewhere in between might be more expeditious.
He might want to take a glance at San Fran signing Kwon Alexander and trading for Dee Ford a year ago instead.
Besides Clowney, the "Perfect 5-tech," the "True Leo" will be the next on the agenda. Who will that be? Will just have to wait and see. I still hope it is Yannick Ngakoue.
1st part yes! 2nd not so much, 2020 SEA roster maybe 20 URFA's 5-7 RFA SEA needs to sign nearly 1/2 a roster & improve! So we need to be active. And of course judicious, Im not complaning at all just agreeing with Rob it is a very important time right now.
DancingBuddha says:
I'm starting to have a really bad feeling about this standoff. Like our best case scenario may end up being that we have 5/6th of last year's mediocre line back. I really want to be wrong about this. Corbin Smith is reporting that the Titans who have double the money we do and are hotly after Clowney, I hope they don't simply outbid us.
Mark Souza says:
If that was true and Indy was willing to just throw money at Clowney, he'd already be wearing a blue horse shoe on his helmet.
SoCal12 says:
It sounds like no one wants to pay a first for Yannick which is reasonable. I wonder what a fair price would be. It'd be great if we can bring it down to a similar deal to Clowneys last year. Maybe a second and a fifth?
Great question Im wondering too. Gotta imagine JC's price came down closer to the seasons start. What I wonder is how much more than a 2nd could JAX be asking for? Gotta think most would not quibble over a 2nd and 4th or 5th even all in 2020. How much might they be asking and whats baseline actual value?
Yeah, I don't know what's going on behind the scenes, but it sure seems like a stare-down contest is going on between team Clowney and team PC/JS. I still want Clowney, think we need him, but I don't know how far apart they are?
I wanted Clowney and Ngakoue. I still think it's possible. I'd be fine with sending them a 2nd rounder this year, and I'd even sweeten the deal with some other pick next year that isn't a first or second rounder if it would get it done.
Yeah, feeling time-is-of-the-essence thing now. I don't want to rely on a Griffen and Irvin and a draft pick and some lesser castoff. I don;t want to end up there.
We'll see.
LAHawk says:
I agree we have to do something but I'm sort of glad that the team has missed out on some of these pass-rusher contracts… Fowler for 48m/3 years? Quinn for 70m/5? I assume the teams can get out of those contracts in later years but that's a lot of money. Vic Beasley's contract for about 10m/1 year seems fine, but I don't know that I would feel more excited about that than I do about them retaining Reed.
I don't think the front office is dumb, I think they will sign one more pass rusher at least, probably either Clowney or Griffin, unless they can get a good price for Yannick. Get one of those guys, continue to try to draft pass rushers, and see what you can do. Look forward to another year of leaning on our offense, though…
No issue with that.
But if they're offering 17-18m for Clowney and he wants 20m — why not just not sign Cedric Ogbuehi and get this sorted?
DC says:
Or give him 21 and push the extra to the last year to let him save face and will be moot on his next extension or the cap going way up.
I suspect(and this is just guesswork) that they've done some number crunching and figure that Clowney may be priority 1, but if they get him at 17 or whatever they can actually manage to also add another premium player like a Griffen or Nagkoe to complement him.
I'm with you there, I wish they would just sort this out! My one thought is that maybe they actually like Yannick better and are holding out hope for him? If they end up with neither, it could be an awful offseason.
Darnell says:
I posited a couple weeks ago that this team is more than one offseason away from being Super Bowl contenders. Again, I'd love to be proven wrong, but I just don't see it. And let's not confuse negativity with objective reality.
They're one off-season away if they actually improve the area they most need to improve.
Rowdy says:
Agreed, if we had even a top 15 pass rush last year we would of had a first round bye and a great shot to be in the bowl. A good pass rush can make average dbs look good and improve all aspects of the D. The fact we did so good last year with no pass rush shows how close we are, and how good Russ really is. A better pass rush would give us better field position and less wear and tear on the d.
Do we need help rushing the passer – SURE.
Does it feel like the right time to take bold steps and get it done – YES.
But it's day 4 already so why don't we see those two top tear pass rushers signed already?
SDB is not just a sight looking at what the Seahawks should do. We prid ourself at knowing what the Seahawks would or would not do. We have 10 years of history with how this FO works and we have learned what they will likely do or not do.
Here are some of what I have seen from this FO regarding pass rushers:
In 10 years the Seahawks did not pay top of the market money to any incoming player on either the DL or the OL.
Even when the team desperately needed pass rushers like in 2013 and again in 2018 and 2019, they did not take the option of signing a top of the market player on a long term structured contract even when they could. The brought Bennett (an UDFA with 2 sacks on his first two years in the NFL) at 5M and Avrill (a 3 rounder with 5 sacks on his first 2 years) at 6.5M. Both had promise and both worked great but none of them was Mario Williams at 16M a year.
They decided to trust Clark and Reed when they lost Avrill & Bennett in 2018.
They replaced Frank Clark with 6-9M Ansah and added Clowney when he was available for 9M. All are not top of market acquisitions.
We can explain each of the above examples to prove those where isolated cases based on the team's situation at the time or the NFL market as a whole.
Or, we can come to a conclusion that they are not too eager to pay close to top of the market money for those players.
I believe that to be the case.
I believe that the Seahawks see Clowney as the player they are willing top pay big money to but not top of the market 20m+ money and Clowney has not reached the point where he is ready to accept the "disrespect". It has to be a long term contract at those terms for them to restructure it to fit under what is now (pre cuts) 18M cap space before counting Irvine and the 2 O-linemen.
As for adding another big name – I do not need to repeat what I think about that.
I hope that they will make that final step and sweeten that offer to get it done.
Eran, they've not needed to pay top dollar to rushers.
They got Bennett and Avril for a song, were able to keep them for a song, and then drafted Frank Clark. They've also not had many opportunities to sign top pass rushers because they rarely reach the market.
That's the problem with this argument. It's like saying they haven't paid big money for an outside QB since 2012. They never had to.
It could be exactly as you just said – In 10 years they did not pay top money to a DL player because they did not have to.
Its day 4 now, if they where going to go after not just one but two top money players – What are they waiting for?
That's the point of the article.
But their lack of activity so far doesn't automatically mean they wouldn't pay top dollar. It could be anything.
Further more – Seattle in a possible contender with a culture players love. If they where willing to pay top money for those players they should have had their pick of the litter and not sit back as player after player gets taken of the board right?
No not necessarily.
So Rob. In your opinion who is out there you would consider this years version of avril and bennet?
We've seen several pass rushers signed. Calais traded.
Doesn't even have to just be a pass rusher.
They needed an injection of quality.
The reason for being able to get Avril & Bennett was due to the market going flat. Similar to what Clowney is facing now. Sure the price range differs quite a bit. But, the possibility to obtain both is still present due to the pricing the players are trying to get if not available.
JS has been there and done that. He'll pull the trigger when it's time. But, He's not going to put his head in the sand ignoring other ops. Another just surfaced with Gurley, which some may not think to highly of. But, signing him to a min 1.3 mil deal is a real possibility that just surfaced.
There will be many ops far more enticing as others shed personnel in the coming days. JS is cool & collected as it gets, when everyone else is sweating bullets. He's fun to watch, but nerve wrecking at times.
1. Gurley is not an opportunity. He's a forced media creation for this team because there are no talking points. At best there'll be a touching of bases. That's it.
2. No, this is not fun. Other teams are addressing their needs. We're not. Time to get it done.
We're contenders next year if we beef up the D the way we need to, add another target for RW at WR, have a solid draft, and things just break-our-way a bit.
Those are some big "ifs" at present now, though.
You are certainly an optimist, my friend.
They are going to have to hit on most of their draft picks in a big way, which they haven't done in a long, long time.
My scenario for quite some time has been to resign Clowney, obtain a quality rush end in FAcy or trade, and then utilize draft capital to move up in the draft for a difference maker. Then just fill in rest as best you can.
All of these things seemed rather feasible to me.
They've signed some mediocre OL and I've never been an overly big Bruce Irvin fan. They have one injury prone RB who will be ready to start the season, terrible WR depth after the big two, and the DL needs more attention than any of those positions.
I've said before, but if they didn't have Russell Wilson – this is maybe a 4 win team with the lack of talent and depth overall. I know they have Wagz, Lockett, and DK… but every team has at least some good players. The Bengals had Whitworth, AJ Green, Geno Atkins… for many years and it didn't matter. They fluctuated between a little bit over .500 to being the bottom feeder they usually are.
There are no games for over 5 months so I'm not too worried about anything yet. But it would be nice to have a reason to be hopeful for the future, so I'm going to wait until after the draft before I worry too much.
I wouldn't use the word worry.
But I've seen other teams go after their needs.
The Seahawks haven't. And they needed to. So now's the time. Deliver.
There's a time to be patient. A time to be measured. A time to be judicious.
But there's also a time to go deep and act from your man parts.
I sometimes wonder if JS is addicted to the praise of his mega-scores. You don't always have to make the greatest deal. Suck it up. Overspend. It's not like Jody is standing around waiting for her change. This is excruciating watching a Super Bowl slip past us one piece at a time.
I would much rather be staring at a 2 year old Lombardi as I sail into a massive cap deadfall…
than "whatabouting" a ten year old Lombardi in my epic tales of balanced books and fiscal responsibility while I toast Pete Carroll's retirement.
Off topic, and there is always another side of the story, but dang if this isn't rough:
NFL Update
@MySportsUpdate
·34m
Darius Slay unloads: Says his relationship w/ Matt Patricia was rough & he didn't respect Patricia as a person. Also said Patricia told him he wasn't a leader & that he had no business working out w/ Aqib Talib & Richard Sherman b/c those guys were elite & Slay was "just good."
Is it me, or does Matt P remind you of Brutus in the Popeye movie? Just wonderin… 🙂
Sorry, meant Bluto
He looks like Bluto's brother who works in a video store.
An adult video store at that.
mishima says:
That would be Kevin Smith AKA Silent Bob…and you're right.
CHawk Talker Eric says:
Comic book guy?
EmperorMA says:
I can't say that I disagree with Slay.
Or Patricia.
Players thrive more so in a positive environment. The Patricia's and O'Brien's of the league alienate themselves from players in such a way that deflates a locker room's moral. No wonder players are happy to be playing in Seattle.
That's why I think Clowney stays. We shouldn't blame him for trying to see if the price would come closer to what he'd hope it would be. JS knows what else is out there. He also knows Jadeveon.
Work the problem.
The draft last year didn't work out the way they hoped with defensive lineman and we ended up Collier who mostly sat all year. Not what you want or need from your first pick. They identified the pass rush as the primary need for this year and have only added an older rotation piece. I understand the desire to always compete and be in the hunt each year but I think that can also be a way to not take risks, to be satisfied with cheap free agents and young players and hope you can coach them up. I agree with BobbyK about where this team would be without Wilson. There needs to be a noticeable increase in the depth and quality of pieces being added to this team. Just because things may have worked out your way before doesn't mean they will again. Sometimes I get concerned that this front office and coach have fallen in love with "their process" a little too much.
Pete Carroll and John Schneider would have been fired with their talent level if they had a QB the past two seasons like Joe Flacco, Andy Dalton, Kirk Cousins, Ryan Tannenhill, etc.
Bobby, couldn't agree with you more. I think Russell has masked a log of poorly constructed teams. Teams that had some promise but just weren't good enough to push far in the playoffs. There have been too many years with stopgaps and projects that didn't work out long term. I have been and will be a fan but it's frustrating to see the talent here miss in most years. Being satisfied with being pretty good sinks s lot of franchises, I hope it's not this one as well
Weren't they the ones that drafted Russ?
I'm going to give a harsh take, but my intention isn't hyperbole.
This Front Office gets way, way too cute for their own good. They are full of hubris when it comes to addressing dire needs on this team. They get way too damn cute on draft day – they are masters of trading a $100 bill and getting four $20s and two $5s and thinking – "look how many dollar bills we got!"
This was the year to act with Urgency. "Win Forever" is absolute BS – everybody has a shelf life. RW has about 3 prime years left before he will absolutely take a noticeable step back. He will still be a top 10 QB, but at the current trend – he will be a top 10 QB of a bottom 10 roster. Where does that take us?
Find difference makers. That costs money and draft picks. That's how you win in the NFL. If this team continues to drop down in the draft to accumulate a bunch of 4th to 6th round picks – I will absolutely lose my mind. We don't need depth – we need talent. Worry about depth when the talent is at a high. They have approached this thing completely ass backwards.
Hard to argue with that.
Still a chance to turn "too cute" into Yannick & Clowney. But if not, this has been my fear all along. This is the year to grow out of being cute.
This is precisely why we have very little quality talent on this team. To many worthless R4 and R5 and R6 and R7 picks from trading down out of the talent window.
Yep. A "good find" later in the draft is a Tre Flowers or Travis Homer. Nice players to fill your roster, hardly the guys that put you over the top.
They won't do it, but honestly – I am so on board with trading up for Isaiah Simmons. I'd like us to go Clowney, Eversen Griffen, and expend capital for Simmons.
Gotta go big. Get difference makers. The NFC West is going to be a grind – we don't have a shot with the current roster.
Submanjoe says:
They hit the lottery with Kam and Sherman and Russell etc…late round success, won a superbowl, and have playing the same numbers ever since.
SEA tried to win in 17,18,19 while rebuilding thats how we got here. Yes its important to act but, jeez.
Van Gogh says:
Bravo Matt! A fair question – do we have more talent than any team in the NFC West? I'd say today, 3/19/20, we are at the bottom of the division.
TCHawk says:
Everyone take a deep breath. PC & JS know their needs. Their core philosophy is to always compete, and have committed to do this thing better than it has ever been done before. They will come through.
I'm often accused of being a stan for PCJS by people who don't like this blog. Which is complete bollocks — I simply offer perspective that is sadly lacking elsewhere. I treat things with honesty and no agenda.
I understand their philosophy and all that comes with it.
But if they're not careful a Championship window will pass us by and we'll have missed Russell's peak.
And if/when that happens, nobody is going to give a toss that they got their philosophy down to a tee.
This "Russell's peak" business strikes me as premature. How long did Brady and Brees play championship quality QB? Into their late 30's, I'd say, conservatively speaking. Russell will be 32 next season. That gives us 6-7 years. That's a good amount of time. Doesn't mean that we can lollygag around now, but that peak will be with us a good amount of time yet…
Just because they played as long as they did doesn't mean Russell can.
Look at Cam Newton. He's practically retired.
I hope you're right but I'm not going to assume he has that amount of time.
Definitely. And with Brees, the Saints have a crazy amount of talent on that team. He's now part of the team; the team isn't winning because of him like it used to. Russell will get that way one day, too. Can anyone imagine a back-up QB/TE or whatever replacing Russell Wilson to run or throw the ball like they do with Hill in New Orleans?
Think of it this way: Would the Seahawks have gone 5-0 with Teddy Bridgewater as its starting QB for ANY 5-game stretch this past season? Hell no! And it's because the roster isn't very good, unlike New Orleans!
Rob, you nailed my sentiments and concerns right on the head. We've agreed to terms with a bunch of bit players who we don't even know will make us better and eaten up cap space to do it. Meantime, our glaring problem, our DL hasn't been addressed. We all knew at the end of the season that Clowney needed a running mate on the opposite side to help free him up and make the pass rush effective. But we don't even have Clowney yet. At this point, our defense is significantly worse. If Clowney signs, we'll be right where we were last year. We knew it would take at least 2 DE signings to make things better, but now if we sign Clowney, will there be enough cap left for the second piece? It kind of feels like we're failing at free agency.
There's enough cap space to sign Clowney and another defensive star, though if it's Ngakoue, because he's on the franchise tag, they'll either have to extend him immediately to restructure his cap hit, or they'll have to create some space by releasing Dickson and at least one more player. Britt's hit is the biggest, so you'd think either he restructures or he goes.
drewdawg11 says:
Coming into the offseason, the Seahawks had more cap space than a lot of teams. Since the start of FA, we have seen… not much. Other squads are being more creative with their cap and acquiring some nice players. I've said it before. I think this group is good, not great at roster construction. They got fortunate early on and that group of players carried them for a while. Stars have moved on, stars haven't replaced them. If the pass rush isn't absolutely and emphatically fixed, and they can't find some more special players in the draft, they will deserve all of that criticism.
I can't let this lie.
People don't need to revise history and call the building of the best team in Seattle sports history a 'fluke'. It wasn't a fluke. It was a pieces of masterful genius. Nothing that happens this off-season changes that.
End of.
You're absolutely correct, Rob. PC and JS did an incredible job putting the roster together during the Super Bowl years. Those first few drafts—not to mention getting Avril and Bennett for peanuts—should have earned JS Executive of the Year honors more than once, and Carroll coached this team up into one of the most dominant teams of the decade.
That hasn't been the case for a while, though. Our draft successes the last couple of years have been the exceptions rather than the rule, and this team as a whole doesn't have the same attitude or talent that it used to have. We have made the playoffs the last couple of years—we've had winning records the last couple of years—almost solely due to Russell Wilson carrying this team, not from Carroll's coaching or Schneider's GM decisions.
I agree that nobody should take what they did in 2010-2013 lightly, dismiss it as a fluke, etc. PC and JS deserve every bit of praise they've gotten for those seasons. But nothing lasts forever. And quite frankly, if we miss this opportunity to give a pretty decent team the talent it needs to be a true Super Bowl contender, if we have yet another middling season where we did okay but fell short of potential despite the presence of a franchise QB in his prime, then I think it will be time to ask whether we need some new blood on the sidelines and in the front office. It's high time that Carroll and Schneider deliver the way they used to. If they don't, I think it's fair to ask whether they still can.
Alright Rob!! I'm with you on this!!
No question the job PC/JS did building a great team leading up to the super bowl seasons was masterful, epic even! But as you know, it's not easy to do. So many things have to break right.
– A 3rd round quarterback who becomes a star
– Draft picks in rounds 2-5 that become hall of fame caliber players. Amazing!
– Unmatched free agency pickups in Avril and Bennett. Well done!
All signs point towards PC/JS trying to follow the exact same model as before, but the landscape has changed. It's very difficult to find FA bargains like Avril/Bennett anymore, as the market just seems so structured now. Everyone knows what each player's value is now, there doesn't seem to be much wiggle room. And draft eligible players are so over-analyzed now with all the information available.
The point is that it appears the blueprint for constructing a championship level team is no longer the same as it was in 2012-2014. Time for PC/JS to adjust and tweek their model as well.
I don't think they've tried the exact same model. They've just not had the same success. It happens.
But I wanted to see more than they've shown at the start of free agency.
If clowney gets that extra 1 or 2 million from somewhere else, Seahawk fans and media will have a harsh response to PCJS. They need to be careful of whiffing this whole DL free agency. Its not often a critical need and a glut of opportunity line up perfectly. But coming back minus clowney and with just Irvin and another weak signing, screams bad. And its not often that we can criticize this front office justifiably. But I expected way more urgency than this. There better be a real good backup plan if they miss.
icb12 says:
Honestly.
Wtf is JS doing?
Guy must be sitting on his ass at home, playing Xbox in his underwear ignoring texts from Clowney's agent, and blowing off emails from Everson Griffen.
I mean c'mon, It's not that complicated to put together an football team in a mostly fiscally responsible manner.
Get on with it john.
/End sarcasm\
What say ye: Yay or nay?
Jim Nagy
@JimNagy_SB
· 28m
If we're the #Bengals and the #Dolphins offer 3 first-rounders for No. 1 pick we take that deal. Joe Burrow is a stud but Cincy needs multiple first-round impact-type players. Justin Herbert was awesome on/off field for Bengals staff at @seniorbowl and could get him at No. 5.
Sounds like the Dolphins are panicking because they couldn't get their doctors to look at Tua.
Nay. I saw enough of Burrow to go all in on a potential franchise QB. And we know that can make all the difference for years upon years.
I proposed this deal last night on here….. sooth sayer 😉
Rob, I don't like this side of you. You're supposed to be my rock. I'm the worrier in this relationship. Get back on that horse and tell me it's going to be okay! Bring me Clowney and Yannick. Promise me Ruiz and Davis.
Apologies Gaux Hawks. I'm sorry it came to this.
But I feel like it had to be said.
I don't want to waste next season.
Ruiz and Davis are 100% unproven in the NFL. I couldn't care less if we get either of them.
Clowney, Griffen and Nkagoue? At this point in time, each is worth ten times as much as those two. Maybe more. Spend now!
Rob unrelated but what do you think about Chase Claypool?
Clearly some athletic potential but not someone I'm crazy about for Seattle. They've already got a player like that.
All this Gurley talk about Seattle on the net is driving me crazy.
They seem to be stuck in 2015
I'm off to bed.
I've spent the entire night trying to get my head around Seattle seemingly being willing to miss out on Clowney over about $2m per year, while not adding any other pieces other than Bruce Irvin and seemingly not being willing to just move on either.
None of it makes sense.
And if Clowney ends up signing, I'm not going to say well done and they got it right. It wasn't worth the risk for half of Cedric Ogbuehi's salary.
Either you want Clowney or you don't. Everyone overpays. Look at Slay and Jones the cornerbacks. Either sign him or move on.
And how do we know whether in fact they HAVE moved on?
It doesn't reconcile with anything they've said about offseason priorities.
I think this was a big problem in Green Bay for so many years. Its good to be conservative sometimes but sometimes you just have to go for it. If it fails it fails but you tried. Now they have done this in the past and have succeeded and failed. Maybe its time to go for it again and sign Clowney and trade for Ngakoue?
Mock Hawk says:
Exactly. What was their plan, to wait out the market and say, "told you so Jadaveon, your market was only x instead of 20+, ha!" But, we also really want you at X, so we'll wait until you decide and everyone else is gone.
That's fine to the extent they would know he wasn't going to probably circle back to them until Wednesday at the earliest because he was shopping for the best offer. My problem is if he's crying because he didn't get the offers he's expecting, and yet, still isn't ready to commit to a franchise, front office and fan base that loves him that has correctly judged the market and offered fair value – then what? I'd be moving on to sign a Griffen or Fowler as fast as possible, because despite what he said about winning and fit, it doesn't seem to be the case, he wants top offer.
To be fair, it seems like Clowney wants more than just $18m+Cedric. I mean he's obviously not getting it now, but if that was his expectation going in, then I'm not really surprised that negotiations have stalled. We dont really now what JS is offering right now. Maybe they have pushed for a $20mil, but Clowney/agent has still not fully come to grips w the lower number yet. We wont know until a contract drops.
Fine — then move on.
Because if he only wants to be here for $23m it ain't happening.
Pran says:
Clowney's acceptance is possibly contingent on Seattle adding another big name pass rusher?
I doubt that.
There was a rumor that Seattle would trade a 2nd round pick for Judon, while also retaining Clowney on a 2 year deal (roughly). This seems reasonable, since the 1st round pick would be too steep of price for Judon (or Ngakoue) now that FA has gotten rolling…. and most teams do not have cap space or draft capitol to make moves.
Not sure about Judon. He is more of a 5 tech guy and with Clowney we would have a bunch of them. Plus you still would have to pay him a big contract and he will turn 28 before the season starts. Good to talk about him but for me I wouldnt want him.
Perhaps you prefer guys like Matthews, Sheard, and Suh? Judon may not be anyone's #1 choice, but options are drying up and if Clowney doesn't come back, then what?
They just need to do something! Trade for Judon if that's the best deal they can make.
Possible scenario, your DLine could look like this.
Ngakoue
Irvin
Draft Pick (Okwara/Zuniga type)
1 Tech:
Al Woods type FA
Collier (passing downs)
Draft Pick
Clowney
Clowney (not his normal position but he can play here)
Clowney (possibly part time)
Jenkins (or someone like him)
Al Woods FA type
Suh (Maybe??)
Clowney (part time)
Personally if option 3 happened I dont think it would be the end of the world. Im sure Im in the deep minority but no chance I would just blow off the season. You never know how guys could step up.
Seems OK what do you think would be ideal and what would the cost be for that solution?
Rumors? What is the source?
You just talking to yourself Drew?…lol
Greg, you've been around this site. The comment was a reply to the post above your long-winded offering. The site allows people to just post in between other posts and it's a jumble at times…
" charlietheunicorn says:
The rumor I was asking about. All you had to do was scroll up past yours.
Ok, I was just busting on you. Trying to have some fun. I wasnt sure what you were asking. I havent seen that rumor either.
Mac says:
Hope everyone is well!
I just want the Hawks to sign clowney or give indications that they are working to solve our d line. The worrisome part to me, is that large amount of small depth deals and us breaking our oline continuity. I just see that as a risky move. If it works out, that's great but if it doesn't, we could be in for serious trouble with an oline that can't protect Russ and a dline that can't get to the passer.
It's a concern. LOL
What do we gain by pistol whipping Clowney out of the extra $3mil he wants…. if we bring him back resentful and his heart's no longer in it. You can't watch the man work without seeing his heart on his sleeve in every wrecked down.
For sure Clowney is the big one. If we get Griffen or Ngakoue with him that would be great. If not maybe we just need to add smaller pieces around him. There is also the thought of trading for a guy at the deadline. Maybe the Broncos suck ass in the beginning and trade Von Miller mid-season?
Entirely agree. At the same time $3-4m might equal a starter so I can understand why it could be a concern.
Kingdome1976 says:
Giants traded for Yannick and Clowney went to the Colts.
Scot04 says:
I could see Clowne ney to Tennessee and Yannick to Ind as a very real possibility. Especially the longer it drags out. I agree with Rob. If the difference i23M, just get it done.
If it's a 2-3M difference get it done. Bad typical earlier
Kimbo says:
I think it is fair to assume that nobody on this forum, including our esteemed moderator, has any idea, like zero zip idea, about any offers on the table or any aspect of the status of the negotiations going on. Or even if there are negotiations going on. It's all just wild prognostications, perseverations, and now, seemingly, hand wringing.
Repeatedly, "just get it done". Get what done? Just sign him, whoever it may be, to whatever they are asking for? Ridiculous.
I want to be facing you all across the table in my next business negotiations!
That's not what anybody has said at all and you know it.
I hope you're business dealings aren't as disingenuous as that comment.
Clowney reportedly wants 20.
Seattle is reportedly only willing to go to 18.
You'd have to be such a try hard to argue that the situation isn't faintly ridiculous when PC himself has called Clowney a huge priority and the pass rush is the #1 need by a mile.
A standard of negotiation is – compromise, in other words, split the difference and everyone wins a little and looses a little. Done deal.
Do it then.
Or move on.
On a different note, everybody take care. It's going to get real crazy in the US in the next month or so. Are numbers are starting to skyrocket now.
Now back to our FAcy agony…
"Our numbers…" hate the no edit thing. I make mistakes all the time.
That skyrocketing might be as much or more a function of increased testing, as it is of increasing infection rate. But in the end, that won't matter much. Things will go way up before they flatten out and drop, testing or not.
Redzone086 says:
Only 15 percent of people even get severe symptoms and only 6 percent of people are needing to be hospitalized this "thing" is not that big of a thing after all.
hawkdawghaw says:
Nonsense. It is a very big thing to the vulnerable. Say otherwise to the families of the 427 people who died of this "thing" in one 24 hour period in Italy just yesterday. Even if your numbers are correct, 6% of a very big number is still a very big number when you are talking about people dying. Sheesh.
CD says:
Are you serious? If officials are correct and 60% of the population gets it, by your math (6%) that would mean over 10 million people in the US would be hospitalized, there are less than a million hospital beds in the US. And good luck paying that bill taxpayers.
mr peapants says:
A big fat nada from today then? That's a disappointment.
I'm trying to gauge the room, when our next two signings are:
Jordan Reed: 1/$5M
Cassisus Marsh: 1/$1.75M
Lol at Marsh as he has been here like 10 times. I wouldn't pay Reed $5
That's $10 too much for Marsh! lol
Lil'stink says:
Think we're good on TE's
Donny Henson says:
Hey Rob. So with Seattle shopping Thompson before his potential cut, do you think they would move Amadi to FS? Also, do you think Solari would stick Jones @ LG or do they still believe that he can be a swing G/T?
I don't know and to be honest Donny, I'm not sure any of it matters while ever the pass rush remains so weak.
Well im looking at the current roster and right now Seattle only have Griffin, Flowers, and 2 practice squad guys at CB. With a lack of options in the draft due to the 32+ inch arm rule, maybe they need to modify the defense to where they have more safeties out there. In terms of pass rush, you're right we are starting to reach the point of stupidity in terms of a 2-3 million dollar difference. But its like last year, Clark wanted 20-21 and Seattle was only willing to go up to Franchise tag money which was 17-18 million. But since we didn't have many picks, it made sense to trade Clark. Now its the same situation, the only difference is that he is unrestricted, but other teams in play for Clowney only want to give him Franchise Tag numbers as well, so today (3/20/20) its put up or shut up. Tell Clowney to sign today and if he doesn't, work on signing Griffin and start talking to JAX's front office about Yannick, which apparently there is a rumor that JAX hasn't talked to anybody about trading Yannick.
My therapist is trying to help me express my emotions more often, so on that note, I'm f*cking pissed off. Plan B and Plan C have dried up and we're on the verge of leaving FA empty handed based on stubborn principles. Have some balls.
Chris Mallee
@mallee_chris_24
Update: Teams such as Seattle and Miami are still communicating but the looming contract is causing all parties pause. Jax wants a sweetener for YN and Philly wants to offset some money as well. Latest offer I've been told is 2021 1st, a mid round pick, and Alshon Jeffery for YN
Some internet guy is claiming that Philly is offering JAX a 2012 1st round pick, a mid round pick, and Alshon Jeffery for Ngakoue.
Per Bob Condotta.
That sounds spendy to me, especially with the contract he is going to want…
The rebuilding Jags wont want Jeffrey. I'm sure they also want a pick in 2021. Thebold rumor for us was our pick at 59 and swap 27 for 42. Wo der if that is on the table?
2020 that is.
So that sets the market as maybe a low 2nd / upper 3rd round pick in 2020 + some garbage pick.
That is not bad, except for the deal he will want after the trade is done.
If this is true, Eagles going for broke, literally. I'm not sure how the guy fits under the cap with some of the other recent acquisitions they have made.
Seattle Mike says:
This is a great site. I used to frequent Field Gulls regularly, but that site has lost some of its attraction for me. This site has become a go-to replacement.
I've followed Rob for a few years, mostly via pod casts and very much respect his opinion, but I think he's going a bit overboard on this "they have to do something now" topic. It's beginning to take on some of the negativity over at the Field Gulls.
My take on the Clowney situation is this. The team wants him, he wants the option to test the market. Reports indicate the Seahawks made one request of Clowney and that was to give them an opportunity to meet whatever offer he received. The reason the issue is drawing out is because the market wasn't what Clowney expected. Clowney himself stated it would take some time before he signed, specifically he stated "it could be several days".
I think Clowney is simply having his agent turn over all possible stones before committing to the Seahawks, who will pay him market value. It's that simple.
On a related note, I don't think the Seahawks feel the same way about their DL as most fans do, this site included. They recognize they need to improve over last year's effort. But I don't think they believe that's going to take a wholesale rebuilding of the DL as some here seem to suggest.
Rasheem Green took a step up last year, and I think he'll take another step this year. I think the coaching staff feels the same. I also think Collier will make similar progress, and I think the coaching staff also shares that view.
They've also expressed confidence in Poona Ford's continued development, and they resigned Jarran Reed. They've since added Irvin. The secondary should be improved simply due to stability at the S positions and additional experience at the CB positions. Flowers was/is much better than fans give him credit for. I'm not sure why fans are discounting the development of Blair and Barton.
Yes, the pass rush needs to be improved. At this point, I think simply signing Clowney will do that. Last year was his first year in Seattle's scheme, and he played most of it injured. As noted above, I think this is a done deal. I do think Seattle wants to add a true edge rusher, and they still have options available to do that. I think they're just waiting for the Clowney signing to know where they stand money-wise before making a serious commitment.
I simply think the coaching staff have a clearer vision of the potential on DL than the fans do and are simply not in panic mode.
Finally, I don't see how anyone can complain about the additions on OL. After last year, it was clear depth needed to be added. Mission accomplished. Guys the glass is half full, really.
Not clear it's "depth" they are adding so much as cheaper starters of roughly the same talent level.
And there's the negativity I'm referring to. The only starter that's signed elsewhere is Fant. The additions clearly have more experience than Fant, and they got two for the price of one.
The "additions" are Shell and Ogbuehi. Shell is meant to replace Ifedi. They have identical draft years (2016). Ogbuehi is meant to be a back-up LT, and perhaps a Jumbo TE like Fant. He has one more year of experience (2015), but has spent some serious time on the bench, and hasn't started a game since 2017.
Not sure what you mean by "clearly," but it's not what I mean by that term, at least.
Moreover, experience does not equal talent, an NFL truism if ever there was one.
So, I stand by my analysis–the main advantage to these new guys is that they are cheap. Shell and Ifedi are, at best, roughly comparable in talent, judging from the metrics I've seen, and Ifedi has started and played in more games than Shell. Ogbuehi was demoted from his position as starter on the Jags, and hasn't started a game in 2 years, which suggests neither talent nor experience.
None of this is "negativity." I'm glad we aren't paying Ifedi big bucks. If Shell can do as well for half the price, great. If Ogbuehi can turn himself into a useful Jumbo TE, that would be great. But there is zero reason to believe that either of these guys is a significant step-up in talent OR experience from what we had.
I'm actually most interested in Finney. He may turn out to be at least an average center/guard in this league as a starter.
Appreciate the optimism, and the post. Bringing back all of the same guys and saying the DL is improved isn't realistic though. Every other team in the league could boast the same 'achievement'.
It's been pointed out a number of times that the offense was top 5 or close in most metrics, while the defense was bottom 5 in most. In particular the rush was terrible. Look no further than Pete's last press conference. It took him less than a minute to say that they are actively looking at the pass rush and need to make improvements.
https://www.seahawks.com/video/pete-carroll-2020-nfl-scouting-combine-press-conference
I hope you're right and that the Clowney domino does fall and leads to them knowing what cap space is available to make the next move. That being said, it's at the very least confusing that Pete would mention fixing the rush as priority #1 and then proceed to add 3 OL who are cheap, but not necessarily good.
If we do indeed miss out on Clowney, and Griffen decides to stay in Minnesota, we are up a creek. People have a valid reason to be concerned.
As I said, I think the coaching staff believes otherwise. Also, I never argued that an edge rusher wasn't needed, merely pointed out why a deal has yet to be done.
Which is why I posted a video of Pete Carroll saying that he feels they need to address the pass rush.
"Yes, the pass rush needs to be improved. At this point, I think simply signing Clowney will do that." is what you said.
That may be your opinion, but others feel that getting the band back together isn't enough. To that end, we haven't even managed to get our lead singer back yet. Hopefully it happens and people can breathe easier. Until then, many are going to be wondering what the end game is here because it sure seems like we're playing with fire even if it does all come together in the end.
I like the optimism and positive look Mike. But the negativity here, is still half of Twitter verse and field gull sites. I think tho the reason were getting annoyed here is that every year at the end of year press conference, PC lays out a clear need. 2 yrs ago, it was run game. Then they go out and fix it emphatically. The reason this year is different is because the draft shows absolutely terrible depth and talent on DL. Where as in previous years you can map out an addition in FA and a draft pick in top few rds. This year its FA, trade or good luck. I think that's why people are getting antsy. The fix is written out clear as day, sign and/or trade for talent.
This last off-season, we heard both PC and russ call out to more stars on the team, and a need of impact talent. Getting a couple older role players is not what they were speaking of. But pass rush was specified as a key need, and when you look at the possibilities outside of what could be gone in a couple days, it'll make everyone here nervous.
Now PC and JS might have a grand plan. I'm sure they do. I'm sure there is a key plan a,b,c…but if for whatever reason something changes and they miscalculate or someone jumps in and goes ridiculous on price, this could look especially weak. In no way are they banking next season on the hope of green, poona and collier becoming starter quality. Its absolutely a terrible thought to hedge your defense and season on that hope. So at that point, what is the hold up is the issue. This is playing with fire. And while pc and js I'm sure are not sweating. They will be if they wake up tomorrow to Yannick, clowney and griffin all wearing new unis.
I can understand the frustration here. Im somewhat frustrated, not panicking yet, but somewhat frustrated.
1. I don't think it's fair to compare this site to Field Gulls any time I don't write anything positive. There's a big difference between what they do and we do. I've promised to seek perspective, be honest and tell it how it is. I'm not a cheerleader though and they're not addressing their biggest need. Waiting this out might be fine for some but with that comes great risk that you won't sort things out. Waiting it out a year ago led to Ziggy Ansah. Not waiting it out for Green Bay led to the Smith brothers. Other teams have actively solved their needs. It's time for Seattle to sort theirs.
2. I can't read about Collier, Ford, Green and co as a potential solution. I'll give Collier time to emerge. But come on man. Not even PCJS talks them up as a solution. They know what they've got there and it's not good enough.
3. The O-line additions are a huge question mark.
@Seattle Mike I think you're probs right.
But here's the thing… the margin for error is decreasing.
I might add that SEA has a long long way to go even in just FA let alone the draft and potentially training camp trades etc.
STTBM says:
We all apparently are still assuming PC and JS have nearly unlimited cash to sign guys. But what if they dont, now that Paul Allen is gone, and his fortune fractured? What if they still are refusing to pay two years guaranteed, or more, and thats part of why they havent signed Clowney?
I feel you Rob, my patience has been gone since 2015. They need to pay Clowney, and get Ngakoue. Griffen and the rest are not enough.
PC said Jody Allen is just as aggressive as Paul was if not more so in a couple of interviews. Since things have been the same for nearly 20 years I have every reason to believe PC has the room he needs to make the necessary choices and or acquisitions.
If you can't get after the QB, you better have a secondary of Pro-Bowlers, and even then it's still tough.
Madmark says:
I'm all in on getting the boys back together, with the signing of Irving. I remember drafting him in my mock draft here but I took him in the 3rd round that year. This guy was crazy athletic. I think he has a couple years to exactly what we needed. To be quite honest I like to think he puts up the numbers that Chris Clemens gave us for 2 years that would be a home run. I'm watching for a trade for Yannick.
Since we lack good news to discuss…can someone, anyone at all…please, for the love of god tell me what is up with Nazair Jones? I'll pay you. I really need to understand something. He seemed like a promising young guy. Then…mystery shrouded in evasive answers.
Coleslaw says:
He has some kind of disease that ultimately makes it hard for him to keep on weight. I think that's why hes been listed as a DE for a couple years now IIRC.
Sad story but hes probably done. I'm surprised hes still on the roster honestly.
The top 4 priorities going into FA were:
1. DL 5 tech – Clowney priority
2. DL LEO
3. DL 3 tech – Reed resign likely
4. RT – cheap veteran hedge likely, draft RT
They have taken care of priorities 3 and 4. They are options out there for priorities 1 and 2.
If it isn't Clowney, trade for Ngakoue.
If it isn't Griffen, sign cheap veteran hedge and draft a LEO.
I don't know how long they can wait on Clowney but they can wait as long as Ngakoue is available. I don't see anything happening with Ngakoue soon. Especially since Yannick also wants a big deal.
Griffen isn't going anywhere soon either. He will stay in Minnesota if they can find the money and come to Seattle if Minnesota can't find the money.
This waiting game with Clowney will last as long as Clowney wants. He may believe that he will get the deal he wants once he can visit teams and their doctors. He may still believe he can get a 5th year and he may still believe he can be the highest paid defensive player in the NFL. He bet on himself to reach true free agency and he may not want to give up too quickly on his dream if he thinks that the reason for his cold market is the temporary travel restrictions.
I think Seattle can be patient. I'm not sure about Seattle fans…🙂
Well said Steve. If we could have any combo of the two would we go straight to it being Clowney and Ngakoue? Or would it be another option?
1…Clowney/Ngakoue
2…Clowney/Griffen
3…Ngakoue/Griffen
Not sure which one I prefer. Good and bad to all three.
Jace says:
Good points. It's been hard enough waiting this long for Clowney. The thought of having to wait even longer till he can visit team doctors is rough.
I've called for patience.
I said in the piece it's not time to panic.
But fans don't have to automatically assume inactivity is OK because it'll all be good in the end.
GerryG says:
It's early in the off season, but all of the big name DL are off the board sans Clowney and Griffen (who is not without baggage) and Seattle literally has the worst DL in the League as currently situated.
This is not good. Sure there are franchised guys out there, but trade + a contract size they already don't seem willing to pay? Not sure what is going on here.
So, with all the doom and gloom around, how about a crazy Seahawks mock draft with Trader John making 5 trades?!? He takes us on a wild ride going from 8 picks to 12 and ridding us of two players that no longer fit. Of course this is after we re-sign Clowney…
Trade 1/27 to Houston for 2/40, 2/57
Trade 2/64 + T. Thompson to Cleveland for 3/74, 3/97
Trade 3/97 + E. Pocic to Detroit for 4/109, 5/149, 5/166
Trade 4/133, 5/166, 6/214 to Pitt for 4/124, 6/198
Trade 4/144 to Wash for 5/148, 7/216
2/40 – Isaiah Wilson, OT
2/57– Jonathan Taylor, RB
2/57 – Justin Madubuike, DT
3/74– Kyle Duggar, S
3/101 – Willie Gay Jr, OLB
4/109 – Jabari Zuniga, EDGE
4/124 – Devin Duvernay, WR
5/148 – Matt Hennessy, C
5/149 – Steven Montez, QB
5/162 – Darnay Holmes, CB
6/198 – Damien Lewis, OG
7/216 – Tipa Galeai, EDGE
I think we would all love this draft, but highly unlikely we could trade back with Houston and get both 2nd rounders. I also think a lot of the guys you mentioned are likely to get drafted earlier than those spots.
Doom and gloom?
This isn't Seahawks positivity blog.
It's a place where I write about what I think is appropriate. We don't do hot takes. I always look for perspective.
Sorry, I meant the doom and gloom of everything happening in the world with COVID19, not what was happening here…should have said it differently.
Also, while that draft was done on First-Pick, I do agree it's unrealistic in a lot of ways. It was just for fun to lighten things up. To get BOB to trade us both 2nd's like that, we'd have to sweeten the pot with something else. But with some of the deals he has made, and if there was a player he really wanted late in the 1st, well it could happen!
It will be interesting as always where some guys get drafted that are predicted to go higher or lower – look at guys like Zuniga or D. Lewis – they are all over the p[lace trying to predict where they will go. Lewis has been in the 2nd round in some mocks and others see him as a one dimensional run blocking guard who teams will de-value until late in the draft.
First-Pick is a fun draft game and not usually very realistic. But it is cool to play around with some of the different scenarios that can happen…
I did the first pick thing also heres how mine worked out after some trades
2. Tyler Biadasz C
2. Raekwon Davis DT
2. Bradley Anae Rush
3. Hunter Bryant TE/WR/Hback
3. AJ Dillon RB
4. Alton Robinson Rush
4. Van Jefferson WR
4. Nick Coe DE
5. John Runyan OT/OG
6. Evan Weaver ILB
7. Myles Bryant NB
We end up with 2 rush ends with Anae and Robinson, two 5techs in Coe and Davis with davis also playing 3tech. A center to replace britt snd his 11 mill cap hit. A playmaker in Hunter Bryant and a precise route runner in Jefferson. AJ Dillon is a huge back and runs like Derrick Henry. Bryant is a savy nickleback who was being talked up as a potential 2nd round pick last year he just isn't physically imposing or over athletic. Evan Weaver is a tackling machine and the type of character I like on my defense. Runyan is a legacy and its worth a 5th round pick to find out if he is anything like his dad.
I like this structure. I would have no problem swapping out Anae for Curtis Weaver or Robinson for a guy like alex highsmith. Maybe we draft cam Akers or john taylor instead of Dillon but i like the idea of drafting 2 rush ends and 2 5techs. Also we need to draft a WR and a RB and another playmaker whether it be Bryant at TE or another pass catching back if Dillon is the choice. Either way I feel like this is another good year to trade back and accumulate draft picks.
Rob. I am extremely disappointed in your viewpoint. Crying to the skies that it hasn't been fixed. Which has allowed every armchair QB fan to come on here and howl with you. How unlike you and how depressing to read 90% of the comments. We have 10 years of pcjs history, we have 10 years of 100 wins, we have untold gems of players uncovered by this organization. We have 2 superbowls. You and everyone should get a grip.
First the idea that we know better or have any idea of the true nature of each and every transaction.
Gee, why didn't we offer more for Calais Campbell. How about he most probably didn't want to come here! So it wouldn't of mattered what we did. Gee why didn't we do this or that as if the players themselves don't have preferences or the cost was to high.
Worst tho, is your and 90% of the posters calling for doom and gloom and a failed season after 4 days of free agency and the stalemate they find themselves in with Clowney. Is that their fault that Clowney has overvalued himself? You say, oh just throw him another 2 or three million. Like its peanuts in the grand scheme of things. But it's not, every dollar allocated in one area affects another area.
They have stated emphatically, just like they do every year on what they need. I have no doubt they will build the best roster they can and they will do it so they don't end up like the RAMS. That should be every Seahawk fans standard.
Kenny Sloth says:
It sounds like you agree with Rob, but are also very rude and missed the real point of the article.
Ha yeah. Good grief
…that escalated quickly.
Yeah, I think Brick killed a guy
The thing is, you're citing a lot of things that have happened in the past; which doesn't mean anything when it comes to the present or future.
Yes, l am grateful that year in year out we can count on 9 or more wins and a playoff birth at minimum being in the playoff race. Yes, the Seahawks are a good team, and they will be as long as Russ is the qb. But you, and we, should want them to aspire to more than good, and there is a pretty significant gulf between good and Super Bowl calibre.
For a few years now this team has been an MVP calibre QB carrying a below average roster on his back behind a porous offensive line with retrograde coaching in an era of innovation. This is a 3-4 win roster without Russ. They need to stop wasting his prime.
Look, it is good to be prudent, l get that. But sometimes teams like the Cowboys and Saints treat the salary cap like a credit card, not advisable as you can only kick those payments so far down the road, but it does allow you to have a really really talented roster every few years.
He's calling them out to take action towards fixing their admitted #1 priority. Nothing "doom and gloom" about that.
And to think that he often takes heat for not criticizing the FO enough, and now he says one thing, and gets this…
That's what makes me chuckle.
Other sites accuse me of being a stan.
Then any time I write anything remotely negative (this piece, my reaction to the Atlanta road win in 2019) people come on here and start complaining that I've not been incredibly upbeat.
It's not my job to only write positive things 100% of the time Mike, validate every move they make and try and convince every poster on here that everything will be OK.
My job is to be honest, offer a solid perspective and tell it how it is.
I'm not going to avoid difficult pieces just so people like yourself can tell me you're 'disappointed' and that I 'need to get a grip'. That's quite arrogant on your behalf actually.
Rude? Really? I called it like I saw it and somehow that's rude. I don't think so. Someone else maybe able to offer a cogent reply to all the the teeth nashing that is going on, but if your only take is that it is rude, well I guess it won't be you! We are 4 days into the free agency, pcjs have a long history of fixing problems, how about we give it some time before we call doom.
Nobody is proclaiming doom here. If you could type a cogent, relevant thought, maybe you'd deserve a response in kind.
Chill out Matt. I've offered my take on this situation. It's as considered and thought out as anything else I write.
Ghost Mutt says:
I thought your response was rude. Rob isn't 'crying to the skies', he's calling for a bit of urgency in fixing a massive roster deficiency.
I understand that the FO is holding firm with what is clearly a market-value offer. But I agree with the central argument of this article – 2 million a year shouldn't stop us from closing this deal.
JS is negotiating from a position of strength at the moment, but that could change very quickly is someone comes in with a big one-year offer and JC feels slighted by the Hawks. The risk of losing the one elite DE left on the market should be enough to bridge the gap and get this over the line.
That's not sensationalism. If we lose Clowney we don't have a shot at a title in what should be a prime contending year.
BTW, How did you come up with the idea that I agree with Rob?
Somebody's having trouble w the reply button.
Rob's been saying for weeks now that the hysteria is brewing and you come on here lashing out on some really out of pocket shit without understanding the nuance of the opinion you're shitting on.
Go for a walk. Nobody's in the park fam.
Sorry what? I lashed out? The Hysteria has been brewing? and then he comes out doubling down on the hysteria and I'm lashing out? So i point out that it's been 4 days and we need to chill on the doom and i don't understand? What the heck are you on about? Nobody's in the park farm??? You nor I have any idea of the machinations that go on within an nfl front office, nor as much as I respect Robs opinion, does he. You have completely jumped the shark in your discussion.
Oh and your first sentence. "nobody is claiming doom here" Really? What the heck was the article and all the following comments about?
About fixing our damn pass rush.
Take a chill pill.
Gonna be quite a different team…
Rams losses:
*RB Todd Gurley
*LB Dante Fowler
*DT Michael Brockers
*LB Cory Littleton
*LB Clay Matthews
*CB Nickell Robey-Coleman
*S Eric Weddle
*DC Wade Phillips
Brandin Cooks name has come up in trade talks. And they don't have a 1st-round pick this year or next year.
They'll be a mess.
They're banking on a McVay scheme, Aaron Donald and Jalen Ramsey being enough to get them through 2-3 years of hell to come out the other side.
But they'll still move the ball against our defense with ease.
That's my greatest fear. Our d getting stretched like teddy against LA
Taffy* lol
They should trade ADonald for Hawks' 2020 R1, 2021 R1 and begin a complete rebuild 😀
Hawks restructure Donald's contract, sign Clowney, draft Zuniga/Greenard in R2 and hello Super Bowl 😀
(not gonna happen, just having fun :))
Every time I hear fans say "teams can manipulate the cap any way they want" I want to wretch.
Just look at the Rams, Jacksonville, Minnesota, Chicago, etc and see how their cap management effects their rosters.
Jacksonville was a quarter away from the SB two seasons ago!
JC3 says:
Yes, things change quickly in this league, and that is why you want to go all in when you got the opportunity.
We will become Bugle West very soon if they keep do nothing in FA and draft badly.
How many of their busted third round draft choices for the past couple years will make the Bengals' roster?
Their actions in FA seems to me that this is more and more like a business decision rather than a football decision.
Team's new motto: Always compete for the dollars and fans can hardly noticed the difference!
😂🤣 enjoy
https://twitter.com/NFL_Memes/status/1240844238176346112
Of course fixing our damn pass rush. But how about stop acting like you all know better how to comprise a complex coherent functioning world beating roster within the confines of a salary cap! While you all are hyperventilating about the demise of the seahawks and their chances for future success, maybe they, the front office might be better positioned to achieve that! Especially considering they have done it already.
Matt, stop shouting at people.
You're being a lot more unreasonable than anyone else. It's annoying and arrogant.
Just a friendly warning. Don't make it more than that.
Well, lost in the last few hours of comments was something to actually discuss, as posted by cha above:
Trusted source of mine has informed me that the Eagles sent a formal offer to Jacksonville for Yannick Ngakoue. Word is that it's a 2021 first round pick. Understand that this is a VERY fluid situation where there are 2-3 other teams also in the mix. Updates to come.
Sounds like JAX are holding out hope for someone to offer a 2020 R1, and teams have looked at that and the contract ask of Yannick and said, "no thanks".
For me, as far as trade compensation, Seattle shouldn't offer more than a 2020 R2 + R4. The Jags' backs are up against a wall with Yannick having said he will never play for them again.
Or if we want to trade down out of R1 early this year, I guess we could offer to swap #27 for #42 and throw in a R4 pick. But I'd rather do the other deal and keep #27 in case a stud player falls to us.
Yeah I wouldn't do a 1st for Yannick. I'd be okay with a 2nd and 4th. I would only consider a 1st if Clowney bails and we really dont have a choice, but hopefully it won't come to that.
Agreed, but I start to feel like our backs are kinda back against the wall too.
I feel absolutely unsafe with a Clowney – Reed – Ford – Green/Collier/Irvin/rookie DL
It's something I've been thinking about.
The cream of the crop guys hate the franchise tag, but the CBA gets ratified because 99% of the voters will never get franchise tagged. So while it makes a ton of news and we hear the media used phrases like "the Jags slapped the tag on Ngakoue" it isn't going away.
So these players – if they really don't want to play for their team anymore – are left with one option. Force the teams hand and do a Clowney. "I'll only play for…" which hammers their trade value.
When the best player in the world is stuck at home like everyone else… strange things happen… 😍🐐🧻
https://twitter.com/FCBarcelona/status/1240737473170493440
Nice distraction from the recent climate here on the SDB. Messi must have plenty of TP, no?
Forgive me. I'm sick of armchair QB's. I shouldn't let that affect my reaction to everyone's opinion on the demise of the Seahawks future chances. Which everyone seems to be certain of. Of course we should lament the lack of progress after 4 days of free agency and the fact that 60? of the 100 top free agents have signed, meaning there are however are still remaining. Of course I should join in the chorus of doom and gloom that Russel Wilson's career will be wasted. How will we ever survive this catastrophe. How dare I place my hope on the proven and successful track record that john Shneider and Pete Carrol have established over these last ten years. How dare I suggest 2 Superbowl appearances and 9 playoff appearances are not good enough. How dare I blame the current impasse on the Seahawks front office for trying to manage a 200 million dollar enterprise. Silly me
Matt, you know what a strawman argument is? Should probably look it up.
Look, these are trying times, so I'm gonna go for a kind response.
I believe what you call "armchair QB" (usually "armchair GM") is actually what this site is for: to discuss different scenarios, wishes, possibilities, concerns etc. that our beloved team could take. This is a site for fans, not Seahawks front office members. Just because we are not the GM doesn't mean we can't have fun (and sometimes express concern) about what our team might be doing. For us, that's part of being a fan and following the Seahawks.
That we shouldn't write about the Seahawks and what we think because we are not Schneider or Carroll makes no sense. Nobody is claiming to know more than them or not trust them. We're just expressing our views as fans. Dedicated fans, yes, but we don't take ourselves overly seriously either.
Have a nice day, sir, and stay safe.
Well said sir!! All the fans of this blog should be able to express their opinions and concerns, provided its done in a respectful manner. And of course we're all aware we aren't the Seahawks GM or Coach, and we understand they know more about the team's situation than we do. Let's move on!
Agreed, well said
Last warning Matt
Rob. What is the real problem here? I have commented on your website over the past 5 years. This current position is not disrepectfull to you. I simply disagree with your column? Why is this a problem? Surely your not offended? While some of the commenters have responded how have I crossed any lines?
Because you've been over the top, aggressive and at times misjudged the tone of people simply voicing some concern.
I have to moderate this place a LOT. Increasingly I'm having to mention that. This community thrives, in part, because of the unseen work done to moderate the comments.
I told you to chill out. I gave you a warning. You continued. This is the last warning now.
One Bad Mata'afa says:
Carolina?
Wonder if Clowney is waiting for Newton to be released and eyeing those bags of cash that will be suddenly freed up. A chance to come home?…could be the perfect storm.
Can't see it — they seem to be playing a long game.
I don't think anyone's that interested to be honest which is why his market is so cold.
In your opinion, who is the most underappreciated British classic rock band?
Probably Deep Purple.
Blackmore and Gillan…. can't argue with that.
The drumming on "Black Knight" is incredible.
BAMF of a band who don't get anywhere near enough credit.
D-OZ says:
Right on Rob! Deep Purple one of my favorite bands. 🙂
Well that veered off topic quickly… 😁
A curveball, or wicked googly, is a good thing to distract the mind haha! Personally, I don't think The Animals get enough love. Eric Burdon is a gem.
I profess quite a fondness for Ten Years After and Alvin Lee. Lotta great albums (some rather underappreciated, too) there!
Good call on both the Animals and Ten Years After!
Ten years after, another great band. Not too many people even know about them.
Jethro Tull.
Bad Company deserves a shout out. Paul Rogers is an all-time great rock vocalist and they wrote killer songs.
Not a bad scenario.
Seahawks starting DL in 2018:
NT-Stephen 3T-Reed 5T-QJeff LEO-Clark
Back ups were Poona, Naz, Green, Jackson, Jordan…
I cant remember (maybe I am wrong) anybody talked about huuge need for one more star pass rusher before 2019 FA(we all thought Clark will stay)…
Current roster:
NT-Poona 3T-Reed 5T-Green LEO-???
Back ups: Naz, LJ, Jackson, Irvin…
I think Poona now is better than Stephen 2018, Green is at least at same level as 2018 QJeff, LJ is where Green was before 2019, Irvin is better than Jordan…the only big diference is that we dont have Clark…
What is the reason you(Rob and others) think that now we need two Clarks/Clowney type of players and you didnt think that way before 2019 free agency(sorry if you did but ibreally ?
On the contrary, we spent the whole 2018 season talking about the need for more pass rush. We entered the 2019 off-season highlighting the excellent D-line draft class that matched up with their biggest need and then when they traded Clark, we noted their biggest need had just become even more of an issue.
For example, here's what I wrote when Clark was traded:
The Seahawks just traded away one of the best young pass rushers in the league. He had 35 sacks in four years despite minimal playing time as a rookie. Clark doesn't even turn 26 until June 14th.
Seattle's pass rush in 2018 relied on Clark — even with better-than-expected production from Jarran Reed and rookie Jacob Martin.
They've gone from one extreme to another. They used to be able to rotate Clark with Michael Bennett and Cliff Avril. Now what are they left with?
Before this trade their #1 draft need was more pass rush. Now it's an even greater need.
http://seahawksdraftblog.com/seahawks-agree-frank-clark-trade-with-chiefs
In the 'start of the off-season article' I wrote after the Dallas playoff loss, I noted pass rush as the clear top need (despite assuming at the time they'd keep Clark): http://seahawksdraftblog.com/the-start-of-the-seahawks-off-season-article-2
The 2018 D-line was not adequate and it's wrong to say that we suggested otherwise on here. The assumption was they'd retain Clark and then use their top pick in 2019 (plus perhaps another later on) on pass rushers to support him. In the end they traded Clark, the guy they took in round one flamed out as a rookie and now a big need is a critical need that remains unresolved.
It's simply not true to claim I argued what you've written there. The opposite is true.
Hey, millhouse! Welcome back!
Ok, but the 2018 DL wasn't enough for more than another early playoff exit, just like last season. And Clark is a much better pure pass rusher than Clowney.
That's why I think we need more.
He was worried about you. Sorry, couldn't resist.
Seriously, welcome back millhouse-serbia. Hope all is well.
Look I will argue all day long that we as fans should recognize what the Seahawks do and frankly I think we should trust what they do, so when i see an article from you that cheerleads the hysteria and I state so and am then called out for my opinion and then stand by that opinion, while I understand you may not share my opinion, it is saddening to me that you cannot see nor support my right to express my viewpoint. At the same time i am most appreciative of your duties to your site and hope that we can find common ground.
The problem is Matt, your response to this article has been far more hysterical than anything written by myself or anyone else in support of the view. You were asked to chill out and you carried on. You were given a friendly warning and you carried on. You were given a final warning and you carried on. You're continuing to carry on now (I've deleted half of your latest rant because I'm moving this on now).
This really is it now. I have no issue with people voicing an opinion and joining the debate. But the reason this place thrives is because I moderate this site much more than people realise. You've hammered me and others on here simply for voicing some concerns and you've been far too over the top, arrogant and aggressive about it. I've given you every chance now. It's up to you which direction to take next.
The performance of the Dline in the 2018 and 2019 seasons were quite different as well. As Rob says it was a clear need but in 2018 we had 43 sacks as a team. Last year we had 28. I think it's clear that this year it is a much more pressing need, not based on which players we have on our roster but based on the performance of said players in the season previous.
I'm just surprised that anyone would try and claim that this site thought the D-line performance was adequate in 2018.
We spent the whole season talking about the great D-line class in the 2019 draft and the opportunity it presented to improve the pass rush (the greatest need).
Now it's an even bigger need.
I know, patience, patience…but this "Slow and steady wins the race" approach of PCJS starts to make me mad. This isn't attacking FA. This shouldn't be about "Hopefully we can add Clowney and maybe someone else". That is not an active and hard push in FA. We have/had money.
We should've made a big trade or sign a big FA.
We talked about Fowler, we talked about Ngakoue, Griffen, ton of other guys. Trading for Campbell or Von Miller. We're not fine with adding just Clowney.
If they want to sign Griffen he wouldn't take 18-20-22m, they could do it without pushing Clowney's salary up. Ngakoue situation might be trickier, but if the Eagles trade for Ngakoue for example, and Griffen doesn't want to leave the Vikes, or the Vikings create enough space to re-sign him, or Clowney signs with the Titans or someone else we're in a really bad place. They need to stop being cute or try to make the most amazing deal ever. I'm fine with a good deal, don't need some ridiculous 16m APY 5 years 30m GTD for Clowney… Give him 20m APY 3 years 30m GTD and I'd call it a fair win-win deal.
I see 3 potential roads for the Hawks right now:
1, Sign/trade two of these 3: Clowney, Griffen, Ngakoue and maybe even draft someone (most likely Davis, but could be Madubuike or even Okwara/Zuniga/Greenard). I'd like this the most as they add proven rushers and some fresh blood too
2, Make some crazy move no-one/few people saw: Trade for a guy that is not Judon or Ngakoue (like Von Miller or someone else). Seems unlikely, but they might be quiet because they need to iron out the details of the deal (maybe Hawks players involved too). They could also re-sign one of the passrusher FAs available and draft a guy in R2/R3/R4
3, Do little in FA, sign one of Clowney or Griffen and hit heavy in the draft. Sign 2 of Okwara, Zuniga, Greenard (or maybe some other outside rusher) and also sign Davis or Madubuike. Maybe they also trade up in R1 or R2 to get one of those guys. That would give us 3 rookies on the DL. Feels unlikely, but if they miss out on FA or don't wanna give out big contracts this might be a way to avoid that and hopefully still have some rush in this season
+1, They do very little. Sign Clowney or Griffen and draft one guy in R2 to help the rush (maybe someone later too). I hope this is not the case and Pete will walk the walk too after he said that passrush is a priority
Henry Taylor says:
I tend to take a positive outlook wherever possible in sports. Im not saying that's would people should do, and it's certainly not what I want from a sports blog either, this is just how I prefer to see it.
My hopeful expectation for the last few weeks has been that they resign Clowney and trade for Yannik, the fact that those moves are still on the cards has me feeling hopeful.
That being said, it is getting a little stressful. I'm probably at about 95% Clowney comes back, but if our pass rush next year is just what we rolled out last year + Irvin that's not gonna cut it. We'll be bounced in the divisional round again. I also don't rate this edge class at all, Okwara is a guy, I don't see anything in YGM that others do, Chaisson theoretically has some upside but we probably aren't gonna know before the draft. So if we were forced to draft one of those guys early I think we'll be looking at another so so first pick.
So basically I'm gonna strap on those rose coloured glasses and continue assuming the big moves are just around the corner until I know for sure that they aren't. But come on John, let's hurry up and do it!
Mo Fafflebap says:
Matt, your argument is pointless.
Bill O'Brien rose through the coaching ranks from relative obscurity at Brown University, to the point where Bill Bllichick chose him to be his OC in 2011. He next had the unenviable task of taking over for living legend Joe Paterno at Penn State the following year. He was perhaps the hottest commodity in coaching when he took over a 2-14 Texans team and went 9-7 his first year.
Now, having coached for over a quarter century and been involved with some of the most successful college and professional programs in football, does that mean he is immune to criticism for the Clowney and Hopkins trades that have made him a laughingstock? Of course not.
The same applies to the Seahawks. Like Rob, most of the Seahawks community isn't satisfied with a single playoff win anymore. Not in this window. Not with the end of our last Super Bowl appearance. Heck, the Texans went just as far in the playoffs as we did last season. But saying that experience trumps criticism is not only a circular argument, if it were true sports as we know them would be over–no one would care.
Thank god Todd Gurley has signed in Atlanta.
Couldn't deal with another tweet from the Seattle media talking about that non starter.
Even Walterfootball didn't list hawks as a top 6 destination for Gurley. He's usually clueless about Seattle.
What's going on with Hawks media people?
Desperate for any kind of news?
The point of my post wasnt to call anybody…especially not you Rob or SDB…I think after 2018 season and before 2019 free agency we were all on the same page…we all thought we have average to good DL and pass rush and that we need to use great draft class and ADD first round talent on that DL(Rob spoke about that and seahawks did it at the end)…and for FA priority was to retain our own guys and to resolve big 4 problem…and for pass rush in FA, opinion was if it is possible, to add assets like Mathews or Irvin (and Seahawks did that now)…the only big name we spoke about was Anthony Barr as combo LB/LEO…so nobody spoke about adding another outside FA pass rusher for big money (am I wrong here)…here we are one year later, we have same DL with addition of first round pick (and you agree we shouldnt write him off after one season) just without Clark, but we are speaking about adding two players that calibre (production, money etc)…I just wanted to ask what has changed?
Put yourself in march of 2019 with knowing that Clark will be gone…would you be satisfied with Ngakue insted of Clark, using first round pick on DL and adding Irvin? I think we would all sign that in a moment?
I just asked what has changed now and why you think we need that first round pick, Irvin, Ngaque and plus one more star for huge money?
CL says:
Rob, do you think Ken Norton Jr. is to blame that the pass rush was THAT bad?
Late in the season or after our playoff loss to GB, I read a lot of arcticles / comments that he has to go.
No. I think a complete lack of talent aside from Clowney is the reason.
A lot has changed. I'm not calling you out here either but there's also a fair bit of revisionist history among this.
For starters, there was no cap room a year ago and they had four picks. If they had the cap room they had this year, we'd have talked a lot more about outside FA's. Instead we talked about the possibility of a player, such as Barr, receiving a cold market and maybe being available at a reasonable cost. That didn't happen and he got a huge contract offer.
We also talked a LOT about the great riches available in the draft in terms of DL. We talked a LOT about the need for more pass rush. Nobody on here was saying it was good or average. The feeling was, quite rightly, that they totally relied on Frank Clark for a pass rush in the same way they relied on Chris Clemons in 2010-11. They needed more, they had to get more and the 2019 draft was the ideal opportunity to replenish the DL.
As I pointed out in my previous post — as soon as the season ended I wrote that the #1 priority was more pass rush. When they traded Clark, this ramped up BIG TIME.
I wrote this piece after the draft saying they had to be aggressive to fix the issue: http://seahawksdraftblog.com/the-seahawks-might-be-aggressive-in-search-for-pass-rush
A lot can happen in a year so I don't blame you for crossed wires. But let's get one thing straight. The feeling was never what you suggested. It was always — the pass rush needs more, isn't good enough and 12 months on the situation is even worse.
2018 season: We had Clark and supporting cast. It wasn't enough to get to the Super Bowl. We said we needed one more big piece on the DL.
2019 off-season: It was easier to get that in a good-looking DL draft class because we had no cap space and limited picks. We let Clark go cause we got a great offer (in hindsight perhaps a big mistake), and drafted a (so far) non-factor in Collier. We added no big piece.
2019 season: We were lucky enough to steal Clowney to replace a bit of what Clark gave us. Once again, Clowney and supporting cast weren't enough to get to the Super Bowl. We still need one more big piece on the DL.
We went to two Super Bowls when we had two big time pass rushers Avril and Bennett, plus supporting cast. One good pass rusher has never been enough to get us back. That's why I believe we need a second star pass rusher.
Just spitballing here..but like Rob said..RW can get us to the playoffs even with a mediocre defense..so the question with paying Clowney (or any DL) top dollar might be how effective they will be come playoff time…maybe that is the concern with Clowney..his likelihood to be healthy enough to impact playoff game(s) after another long season under his belt…
Lots of ways to improve the pass rush outside signing a top dollar DE…go for DL by committee, draft an athletic linebacker..improve the secondary..etc etc
Go on then… what's your DL committee?
Bruce Irvin, Clay Matthews and Everson Griffen?
Are they going to bring back Patrick Kerney too?
Logan Lynch says:
C'mon Rob, Kerney is ridiculous. I'd go with Grant Wistrom instead.
Yeah a couple of those guys would be fine..draft a couple more..hope that your first round pick from last year steps up in year two. Just a reminder..in the wild card game against the Eagles..the Seahawks had 7 sacks and held Philly to 9 points. Only 2 sacks against Rodgers in the Div playoff game..but that's not why we lost..we lost because nobody could cover D Adams..and our leading rusher (outside of RW) rushed for 26 yards..and we almost still won that game..
Don't get me wrong..I'll be as happy as anybody if we sign Clowney (+ another DE)..but I'm not as pessimistic on the Hawks chances next year if we don't..
Are you being serious?
Sometimes I read the comments in here with utter amazement.
You don't agree the reason the Hawks weren't in the NFC championship game last year was because we literally ran out of running backs??
It was a factor, yes.
But you don't make Super Bowls with bottom-five statistics in sacks, pressures, hurries, missed tackles and crappy run defense.
And that's the biggest difference between Seattle and San Fran, New Orleans etc.
I think we were a healthy Chris Carson away from making the Super Bowl last year..the playoff defense was fine (18 ppg avg)…and I would have liked our chances against SF with a reasonably intact running game.
anyways..we have a ton of money to spend..so let's go get some FA's..I'll trust JS/PC decision with whomever they choose..
We really weren't Chris Carson away from the Super Bowl.
But I'm glad some fans are happy with plodding on. It means the disappointment if 2020 is a lot like 2019 won't be as crushing.
Robbie says:
Hey Rob, what do you think the actual chances are that we resign Clowney now? Think they hoping he keeps dropping his price.
It feels like they're in a stalemate.
I'm wondering now if it's not so much about the supposed $2-3m apy difference (Clowney wanting $21m, Seahawks offering $18m), but about the contract length maybe?
Seahawks want to lock him up for 3-4 years to be able to spread the cap hit and sign a partner in crime, but he only wants a 1-2 year deal now that he sees he won't get top dollar?
IDK, just trying to make some possible sense of the delay.
It's plausible for sure.
But eventually you have to get this sorted. What are they going to do? Wait for Everson Griffen to sign somewhere else, watch the Eagles trade for Ngakoue and then decide they better get a move on?
We came into this off-season saying they needed to be pro-active to fix this problem. They've done nothing other than sign Irvin. Other teams have gone after it and improved their holes. We've done nothing but sign depth pieces, re-sign a bunch of mediocre RFA's and now we're having a slow dance with Clowney.
It's not good enough I'm afraid.
Has Tampa Bay entered the sweepstakes?
Could be the TB12 signing has acted like a black hole, pulling everything in the neighborhood towards it with a strong gravitational force.
My fear now is that the longer this goes on without movement that Clowney will just go elsewhere on a short term deal. I would not blame him if he did actually. He owes the Hawks nothing and the absolute lack of talent they had around him last year has certainly impacted his stats and market this year.
My big question is why would Clowney come back to the Hawks if his plan is to take a short term deal and rebuild his value? They have less talent now than last year. It would be a stupid move on his behalf. Go somewhere that you will not be double teamed every snap.
I think it is to the point that the Hawks either give him a deal int the $18-20 mil /yr range or he moves on.
Part of me wants to see him sign somewhere else.
I want to know what their plan is.
I just think if he goes the short term deal route there is zero chance it is with the Hawks and for good reason.
Danny P says:
I hadn't thought of that, hadn't seen it mentioned anywhere either. Good call.
This could lead to a trade being almost a necessity if Clowney and Griff both up and get signed.
Clark being the last DL drafted that is seriously valuable is a huge reason as to why they're in this spot.
Personally I would sign Clowney and trade for a real Leo. Just do it, shore that problem up for the next four years of Russ' career. Highly important and they've got the cash and draft capital to do it. Bite the bullet, I'd say. Shouldn't need a 3rd year of this rebuild. Hawks are no better off than last year as it stands. Too many teams sing that song every year.
Hope these last couple drafts pan out. I hate the idea of the Hawks officially being a poor drafting team. That's how ya end up with a couple super studs and a bunch of young guys not living up the expectations.
Get the two obvious ends. Add to the number of play makers, please!!
The Hawks absolutely do not have less talent than last year if Clowney comes back. Seattle would have the same 3 DL starters Clowney-Reed-Ford and whoever replaces Ansah will be an upgrade.
Clowney's reluctance to sign quickly almost certainly has to do with evaluating how to navigate his medical situation and the need to meet with team doctors and coaches before they offer a mega deal. He must believe that a mega deal is still possible.
If Seattle gets Clowney, and then signs a LEO that is better than Ansah (which is anyone) then they have completed their priority FA goals.
That's OK then.
Not less talent.
Just the same talent that provided a bottom five defensive line.
Not the same either. We will get a LEO that is better than Ansah so the starters will be better. Is it reasonable to expect Reed to improve over last year? Yes. Is it reasonable to expect Green to improve? Probably. Is it reasonable to expect Collier to improve? Yes, a bit.
And they will draft a DL too.
If they get Clowney, the only loss is QJeff.
Who is the LEO they are signing?
And I'd argue it's equally reasonable to expect a crappy D-line will remain crappy.
Ideally the LEO will be Griffen. If Griffen stays in Minnesota then it will probably be one of the mediocre vets or projects that are out there. That is still an upgrade over Ansah who was a zero.
So we had one of the five worst DL's in football in 2019.
But we should be reassured because Ziggy Ansah is going to be replaced by Everson Griffen (hopefully, maybe, somehow) or someone who isn't a total disaster but still isn't very good.
Pass me a beer, I need a drink.
We have an aging LB who has slowed significantly( I love KJ by the way), a solid but overpaid C coming off an ACL injury and veteran TE who has barely played a snap in 2 years who could be cut to save $18 mil + .
So JS can create as much cap space as he wants I have no idea why they have not been more aggressive in fixing the one glaring weakness on this roster? There are no answers in the draft and why not pay a guy in free agency instead of trading for a guy and having to give up draft capital and then pay the guy anyways. Makes no sense IMO. I love PC/JS and have a often been accused of blindly believing they will figure things out but this time I am baffled with the inactivity.
But what if they like guy for whom they need to give draft capital much more than other one?
Did anyone of you take in consideration possibility that they dont like Clowney that much as every seahawks fan think? (I.know.what they say but they say a lot of.things)…
Rob said they just need to give him that 2mil more…what if they dont want to pay him big money at all…
I know its all big what if, but as sea mode said I cant find logical explanation why they didnt sign him allready when market is cold as it is…
That's fine. Don't sign him them.
Sign somebody else.
Trade for somebody else.
This is only relevant in a discussion about signing Clowney vs someone else. Not when they've signed nobody other than Bruce Irvin and are waiting for Clowney to accept their terms.
My point exactly there are no other options to sign long term. I like Griffen but he is a 2 yr solution as best. All other options require a trade.
The Hawks finally have some draft capital and I would love to see a desperately needed infusion of young talent.
Griffen is a great compliment. He was to Danielle, he would be to Clowney. I can just about buy into Clowney + Griffen + Bruce but it will also require an EDGE being drafted early (which I wanted to avoid).
But Griffen + Bruce + someone else old and cheap and then needing to go big on DL in a crap DL draft?
What kind of a plan is that???
Agree completely Rob two 30 yr old pass rushers in Irvin and Griffen is not a plan.
Of course…I think they are working on trade for premium, star, pass.rusher who plays LEO position.
And if they're 'working' on a trade… why hasn't it happened?
They've had the combine onwards to work on a trade.
We've seen multiple players traded, some really high profile ones too.
When is the trade happening? Have they mailed their offer rather than phoned it in?
I hope for YN…
I said I think and maybe I should say I hope…I am nervous as all of you, I am refreshing twitter every few minutes, I am waking up during night few times to.check did they sign pass rusher…
I just cant believe they will go with this into draft…they need what Pete said they need…premium, star, LEO…I hope they will find him and pay him…
Sounds to me like you're in a stage of denial that is rapidly developing into the realisation a lot of us have already come to.
Thank god they signed Cedric Obguehi and brought back Luke Willson and didn't just get this Clowney situation sorted.
The only diference is it looks like I am the only one (maybe I am literally only one) who doesnt want that pass rusher to be clowney😁
Tony Pauline answered on my question when he spoke about seahawks trading for YN…I am rooting for that trade for weeks now…come on John make me happy…😂
YN + Griffen would be dream scenario…
I agree. Patience is a virtue to a point, but then the options become few and far between. The defense was bad last year, and nothing has changed other than adding Irvin. The talent pool is much smaller to draw from now.
I was never a huge fan of the YN trade, just due to the massive compensation required, and now it is one of the only remaining options. If I'm Clowney I'm signing a one year prove it somewhere out of spite, somewhere with a strong DL rotation.
Word of the day: stan.
Thanks Rob!
Rob, you're on record for upping the offer to Clowney by $2-$3M to get him signed, and I agree. What would you pay for Ngakoue, both in terms of trade compensation to Jacksonville and a contract offer for Ngakoue?
I'd give him/them the same as San Fran paid for Dee Ford. Maybe a little more. I know that won't get it done but that's what I would pay.
Adam Schefter
@AdamSchefter
Updated: Tom Brady's contract details with Tampa, sources tell ESPN: 2 years, $50 million deal, all guaranteed, that also includes another $9 million in incentives – $4.5 million in incentives per year. The contract also prohibits tags and trades.
8:23 AM · Mar 20, 2020
Tecmo Bowl says:
The sense of urgency to fix the pass rush is at an all time high. I get it fretting a bit myself.
We had been talking about a 2013 redux of Avril and Bennett. In 2013 the league year started March 12. Avril signed March 13, Bennett March 14. So basically yesterday and today.
Frank Clark was traded on April 23 last year. We may have to make the Clark trade in reverse.
There is still time to fix the pass rush. The off-season officially started what 45 hours ago.
Again, that's all fine. They have time.
So are people comfortable with waiting until the draft and then trying to trade for Ngakoue with no leverage? What if Jacksonville ask for a first and a second this year?
Do you just give up and accept Rasheem Green and LJ Collier as starters?
Because that's the problem with waiting. There's no guarantee in time this will play out with results.
I'm not necessarily comfortable with waiting, but JS/PC seem to be.
If we have to do the Clark trade in reverse for YN, then so be it. JS has to pay the piper at some point, and believe he will this off-season.
Green and Collier have talent, but neither show game wrecking ability. More clean up guys. Green could take another big step in year 3. Not banking on that though.
I'll say it again.
People saying, 'if we have to wait like the Clark trade etc'…
What if you wait until before the draft and then with no leverage start talks with Jacksonville? What then? What if they ask for two firsts? Or a first and a second this year?
What if they simply refuse to trade him?
It's a massive assumption that it'll be possible to do that. There's zero guarantee. People act like Jacksonville have text the Seahawks and said, 'don't worry if you can't do anything now — we'll just deal you Yannick in April'.
And if you can't make that trade before the draft, everything is screwed.
So it's not a proper plan to wait.
1 possibility is that Ngakoue is a true plan B for Clowney, and they eventually give up 59 or 64 and the 2021 3rd round comp we'd get for Clowney. That might get it done, and if not another 2020 4th definitely should.
Not ideal, but not a bad deal. Turn Clowney (rental) and a late 2nd into Ngakoue.
Why though? Ngakoue is going to want the same type contract and you have to give up the picks for a player who is not as good.
Another problem with the YN trade is the rest of the defense. Nothing has been done to improve it, or get another WR option for Russ, plus we need another RB. These things need to be addressed in the draft, and that is a lot harder to do if we trade away our capital. The team seems to be getting boxed into a corner right now, and it's not going to be an easy out.
I think something we all sometimes fail to realize, due to the team's success under PC/JS, is that this roster is by far the least talented they have ever had. Let's say, just for the sake of seeking some analysis on the quality of the roster, that Russ gets some kind of knock that keeps him out of the lineup for four games.
How many of those games, regardless of the opponent, do you think the Seahawks win? I say one at most, and that win comes with quite of bit of luck from the football gods smiling down on the team that day.
Extrapolate that to an entire season. That is a 4-win team.
Let's apply that same scenario to our division rival, the 49ers. Jimmy G goes down for four games. My guess is they win three. Four is not out of the question.
We need a roster like theirs to contend for the Super Bowl. We will not until the quality of our personnel is improved, not merely kept the same.
I think it's unrealistic to get a roster like San Fran. They have a ton of first round picks on their DL. They drafted well with Kittle and Bosa. They have a top-15 pick this year for being prepared to deal Buckner.
But we can compete with them with an improved DL. We haven't got an improved DL.
I agree completely, Rob. Our success has kept us from having top draft picks available for over a decade. But we can add through FA and trades and compete, much as we did when trading for Harvin and signing Bennett and Avril in FA. That ended with a Super Bowl victory and a trip back the following year.
If you can't build through the draft, you have to find other ways. Our moves in FA recently have been more about maintaining the mediocrity rather than upgrading the roster, wouldn't you say?
I think they've tried to find their guys, tried to recreate the magic. They've had some success but not enough.
And that's why this off-season they needed a talent injection. Even Russell Wilson called for that. It hasn't happened.
Yup. Russell Wilson knows it and made a very un-Russ-like public call out to the FO to add more talent.
He made special note of calling for "superstars" rather than draft picks, which I felt at the time was a not-so-subtle jab at the FO to use their R1 pick to perhaps trade for some known talent rather than trade it for some additional R2 or R3 picks, like they've been known to do, and which have turned out about as you'd expect R2 and R3 picks to turn out. This is the #1 reason our roster has deteriorated in the last few years.
An influx of talent is required to compete with SF and AZ. I don't think we can rely on R2-R4 picks to get that done in the next 3-4 years. We wither need to play the long haul game and maybe get aggressive on draft day, moving up to select prime talent, or use our lower-end R1 picks to trade for "superstars" who are coming to the end of their contracts who can step on the field and make a difference right away.
Russell: 'We need superstars'
Front office: 'Have you met Brandon Shell?'
LOL!!!!! That's the funniest thing I've heard in quite awhile Rob! I'm still laughing!
Ha! Precisely!
Well done Rob that is a classic. Need a meme for that one.
SonGoku says:
That's exactly the point I think. Same thing with the Ravens. A roster like that should be the goal, but that's not done in one off-season with our current roster. However, I hoped that they get the pass rush done this spring to give Russell at least some help and the chance to carry this team to a championship. Building a completely elite team will take some seasons.
Hawk Mock says:
They got the 3rd pick and right to draft Bosa when Jimmy G went down. They already had a rising defense because of numerous high picks invested in the line that worked out. They coupled this with Kwon and Ford among others. I think if we resigned Clowney this year, Russ gets hurt and we subsequently get the right to draft next year's Bosa equivalent while acquiring 2 more defensive stalwarts as they did, we'd probably be looking pretty good too.
The way things are going at present for the Hawks, it might be best if the NFL shut things down now until further notice. Kind of a macabre thing to say, but…
The scariest part for me is that Pete's defence does not work without a good 4 man pass rush. They can't rely on blitzing and scheme to generate pressure.
The drafting of Mcdowell and Collier really has put us behind the 8 ball but sign Clowney and Griffen then draft a guy like Zuniga or Okwara and things look a little better. Competitive at least.
1. DL 5 tech –
3. DL 3 tech – Reed fills this need
4. RT – cheap veteran hedge fills this need, probably also draft RT
Plan A for the 5-tech is Clowney. Plan B seems to be Ngakoue. Both are still in play.
A lot of the top-tier and mid-tier LEOs are gone. But Everson Griffen is still available and he would be be a great complement to Clowney or Ngakoue as well as a huge upgrade over Ansah.
I'm just going to keep repeating myself.
The top two priorities remain completely unsolved.
Even if they sign Clowney, it's still the same crap line with Bruce Irvin.
It's time to, as we say over here, s**t or get off the pot.
But suppose Clowney wants to surpass Donald? What then? And suppose further the Seahawks see the market (for Clowney) more accurately than Clowney and his agents?
In fact the Seahawks have already been proven correct, by revealed preference! Clowney has not been signed by another other team.
Then move on.
Don't just do nothing.
Yes, the top-2 priorities are unfilled. And, if they go unfilled in FA, then the Seahawks are well and truly screwed. We are in agreement on that point.
So, how long do you think they can wait on Clowney? I think they can wait until something forces them to say yes or no on Ngakoue and that could be a while.
I don't think they can wait much longer at all.
Because any team at any time can sign Clowney. Or trade for YN.
Waiting like we're the only horse in the race isn't a plan.
Could it be that the Hawks are simply in a position of Clowney either takes their offer or they are fine with getting a 3rd round comp pick next year for him if he doesn't take it? Feels like this front office is still placing a ton of value on comp picks based off of the low level signings so far.
I don't think comp picks are what is holding this up. I think it is most likely that Clowney is trying to get clarity about his situation during a time when necessary medical evaluations by team doctors are impossible.
1. If they were worried about comp picks that much they wouldn't have signed Shell, Ogbuehi and Finney. They would've targeted players who were cut like Ricky Wagner or Cordy Glenn.
2. They may well be in a position of 'take it or leave it'. That's fine. But eventually 'leave it' has to be the choice and you move on. They can't just poodle around indefinitely while not doing anything.
Zeke says:
Would you guys overpay for Griffen at this point? Say $12M just to be sure? Then hope for Clowney or Ngakoue…
Only if we were pretty certain of getting one of the other 2. But Griffin at this point is better than doing nothing.
I'd get Clowney sorted instead of fannying about, or I would just move on.
I have to agree with Rob here, as well. Either get Clowney inked and move on to Griffen or Nkagoue or move on from Clowney and make some deals for Griffen and Nkagoue.
I do like Bruce as a rotational piece to this DL. He brings some passion and a good work ethic and a bit of an alpha attitude that this D needs.
Move on to what? Griffen at whatever his going rate is? YN trade of assets and big contract? Other, if so, what at this point would be your backup plan if no Clowney, Griffen or YN trade? Seems like they need to act decisively and soon.
There would be no options other than a patchwork of journeyman, near-retirees and rotational pieces. There just isn't much left on the market, I'm afraid.
If they strike out, they will have to seriously consider trading some draft capital to move up higher in R1 or to help lure away a vet from a team who might have issues re-signing that vet next year.
They'll need to be more creative than they've ever been if we lose out on all three.
I'd guess Jabaal Sheard to replace Clowney and Markus Golden for Leo?
Yes. Griffen and YN.
Or something else.
Make it happen like other teams.
Griffen is hoping that Minnesota can bring him back. I don't think he is in a hurry to sign with anyone else until he is certain that a return to Minnesota is off the table.
Hawkblogger said: " One other thing to mention: in their pursuit and patience of [sic] Clowney, Seattle has missed out signing on a metric ton of mid-tier, rotational pass rushers. And some of those were really fair contracts. If they lose Clowney, they'll be staring at the bottom of the barrel. "
Who were these? I am not sure I agree that 1) there were so many and 2) that they were actually mid tier.
Confession: I think Clowney is top second tier. And maybe the Seahawks feel the same way…
Quinn and Fowler were top-tier LEOs.
The mid-tier guys would include Beasley and Ogbah.
Shaq Lawson
RWIII says:
Totally agree with Rob. Seattle needs to get their premier pass rusher. As my dad would say. "It is time to sh*t or get off the pot."
Why? Don't jump to plan B (Ngakoue) while it is still possible to achieve plan A (Clowney).
I understand the fear of missing Ngakoue while waiting for Clowney but I think that Jacksonville's trade demands and Ngakoue's contract demand make it unlikely that anything happens soon.
BTW: Now that D. Hopkins has been traded to Arizona. In addition to Shaquill Griffin, Trey Flowers and Ugo Amandi, I think Seattle needs another cornerback. I was hoping that Desmond Trufant would be signed by the Hawks. But "no dice." Trufant signed with Detroit for 2 years 21mil. I think this was much more than Schneider was willing to pay.
I like Trufant, but he's had injuries, is older and short arms. Plus after the Carey Williams experiment I doubt they bring in any veteran outside CBs to play in their system.
Should I panic or chill out? Going back and forth:
Seahawks FO isn't aggressively trying to fix defense.
Top free agents don't want to play for Carroll/Norton's crap defense.
Longer this goes on, the worse the optics and messaging.
Maybe they're really high on this draft as far as DE and LEO go. I don't know how they'd be high on that position seeing the combine in person. Their strategy to attack the top position of need on this team is quite a head scratcher at this point.
Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems they are more aggressive and successful with trades than free agency and the draft.
Reed + Irvin/Mathews expected, won't do it for me. Passivanilla.
It's possible the first four words of your post is the problem. I kid 🙂
It's the first one.
HoF comment right there! I tip my hat to you, Sir!
https://twitter.com/AaronWilson_NFL/status/1241050263080796160?s=19
Doesnt sound good. This guy always has all about texans.
This makes perfect sense if you're Jadaveon Clowney. He gets the same amount this year as he was going to get anyway with a multi-year contract, but a chance at much more later.
Unless he gets injured again. Then he might be leaving quite a bit of guaranteed money on the table. It's a crapshoot any time someone signs a 1-year deal.
That first comment is perfect – So now he basically wants the franchise tag?
Perhaps Clowney is just doing the "negotiating" thing, throwing out stuff like this to hopefully get another million or two added to his contract offer? His leverage has been reduced by lack of interest, so, he's likely trying to get some of it back with this kind of bluff BS.
I just had a vision of the scene from A Few Good Men.
Jessup (Pete): Are these really the questions (FA) I was called here to answer (sign)? Phone calls (Bruce Irvin) & foot lockers (OL guys)? Please tell me you have something more. These two Marines (Seahawks) are on trial for their lives (Superbowl or bust). Please tell me that their lawyer (GM) hasn't pinned their hopes to a phone bill (ugly DL draft).
Kaffy (John): Looks at the Airmen (Shell & Finny)
Jessup (Pete): Do you have anything more for me counciler?
Kaffy (John): Looks at the Marines (Hawks roster) & then his legal team (all of us, waiting to see what he does)
Jessup (Pete): Thanks Danny (John). I love Washington.
Kaffy (John): Excuse me. I didn't dismiss you. I'm not through with my examination (signings). Sit down.
Griffin going to be pricey if he has another season like last year and grabs a few INTs. Wonder if that impacts how much of the cap they tie up in long term FA deals beyond Clowney.
Volume12 says:
Broncos get Melvin Gordon to pair with Phillip Lindsay? 🔥
They've killed ot this off-season.
Franchise tagged one of the best safeties in football in Justin Simmons
Traded for AJ Bouye and Jurrell Casey
Signed Gordon and Glasgow
6 picks in the 1st four rounds
Won 4 of 5 to end the year once Drew Lock was named the starter
So glad I just moved out of Denver. Would not be able to handle their success.
And they'll get a healthy Bradley Chubb to add to a top 10 D.
Seems the AFC has been very active in free agency. Wonder if it's the Brady effect.
None of these teams are on the Chiefs or Ravens level, but besides those 2 there's some intruguing teams.
Bills, Colts, Broncos, Titans (especially if they get Clowney), maybe even the Chargers. Love that secondary. Derwin, Adderley at safety and Casey Heyward, Chris Harris, and Desmond King at corner? Whooo.
And of course NE will be right there too.
I was compiling similar list. Would even include the Browns w/ additions of Hooper and Conklin. Getting Mayfield a safety net and some protection might save his career. I think they trade OBJ (ODB?), too. Right direction.
Man I want to believe in Cleveland. That's another fanbase who deserve to see good football and I agree with everything you said. I just don't know if they've fixed that dismal culture they have there.
Agree about the Browns' culture, but I think Stefanski was a good hire.
In AFC, soft spot for fans of Buffalo, Baltimore, Cleveland and…the Raiders (Oaktown fans, not Las Vegas).
Don't forget they also cut Jacob Eason, I mean, Joe Flacco.
That's SB winning QB 'Smokin' Joe Flacco. 😉
Agree, but at some point their approach to free agents will have a negative effect. In short, they'll get a rep.
Not sure what I'll do if it's Reed plus Irvin and Mathews. Might need a break or intervention.
I am the human reply fail.
That might finish this blog off lads.
Not sure I'd have the motivation to do a month slogging my guts out in my spare time talking about how the worst DL class in years can save the day.
Think of all that time you'll spend mocking Curtis Weaver or reconsidering Yetur Gross-Matos.
It's not COVID-19, just the draft chills.
I won't do it.
I'll just stop writing.
You could resort to writing about cap space not being cap space, the difference between TEF and BAMF, 5-tech versus LEO, why 'indeed' is better than 'right,' etc.
Looking forward to it.
I wouldn't have the stomach for it. I'd feel like I was writing for the sake of it.
Most Overrated QBs in the NFL by Rob Staton
Griffen wrote on Instagram he's leaving Minnesota
Do you have a link or source? Hopefully, he's coming to Seattle 🤞
https://www.instagram.com/p/B99u_fwFc3J/?igshid=mp0gl252a6sz
Instagram is so easy to use man…
https://www.instagram.com/p/B99u_fwFc3J/
"eversongriffen
When I came to Minnesota as a fourth-round pick out of USC, I had no idea how much my life would change over the next 10 years. I realized my dream of playing in the NFL, went to four Pro Bowls and came within one game of playing in the Super Bowl in front of the best fans in the country. More importantly, I became a husband, a dad, and met teammates who became brothers for life. I also stumbled a few times on my journey and could not be more grateful for the unconditional support and love I received from SKOL Nation. While it is with a heavy heart that I say goodbye, I leave Minnesota in the best physical and mental shape I have ever been and have many Pro Bowl seasons to come! Wherever my next stop is, I will always be grateful to and cheering for the Vikings. Thank you all for the love, support and memories."
SHDB is easy to use too. Everyone should just post a link instead or paste the quote (or both) instead of just typing something in, just as you did.
Hoping it's here. Fearing it's an NFC East team.
Tom Pelissero
@TomPelissero
Everson Griffen is leaving the #Vikings.
Statement from Griffen's agent, Brian Murphy: "We have broken off talks with Minnesota because they have to spend their money elsewhere and we decided to now focus our attention on free agency."
11:08 AM · Mar 20, 2020
Lets just sign Griffen and Clowney and end this nonsense. Let Ngakoue go to Philly and we can keep our draft picks.
Completely agree. I want Griffen more than Ngakoue.
Thank you! There were a couple possible suitors for Griffen including Seattle. Go get him PCJS!
Aaron Bostrom says:
Griffen posts he's out of MN. Let's go get him and get Clowney in as well. Then we can bring in Okwara hopefully.
We're no allowed to sign Griffin before Clowney. It's against logic.
Of course we can sign Griffen. If Clowney is holding out for offers, we have every right to hedge against his departure. Even Mr. Clowney and his agent should be able to agree with that.
If you sign Griffen and Clowney walks then maybe you just pull the trigger on an Ngakoue trade. I almost would rather have Ngakoue and Griffen that Clowney and Griffen.
What plays in the locker room?
Griffen happy to play for Pete and sign for Reed's numbers: 2/23, 14 guaranteed or Clowney 'settling' for a 1/18 after contender comments?
Re: Clowney. Seems both sides are squandering a bit of credibility and goodwill.
If Everson signs elsewhere for anything reasonable, I'm gonna be incredibly curious/bummed out. Unless they are actually going after someone else. Would have to be via trade if they're to avoid a probably-ugly rotation on that side. Relative to the rest of the NFL.
Signing guys like Clowney or Griffen on a shorter deals would limit us cap wise quite severely would it not? Can't push the spending back if you do it that way.
Steve Neelen says:
Seattle had never been known to push major costs into the future.
I would expect Griffen to get a deal similar to Reed. That is doable.
A 1-year deal for Clowney would be harder to pull off. That would probably require waiving Britt.
The Finney signing is looking even better now because it gives us a veteran starter at center if they have to cut Britt to sign Clowney for 1-year.
They literally had to reset the roster because they pushed costs into the future.
If they are one year deals then yes. Hopefully we go to at least two to lower them some what in 2020.
"They have to spend their money elsewhere."
Imagine a kicker getting paid ahead of you.. Ouch… 😉
·3m
The #Vikings gave kicker Dan Bailey a three-year, $10 million that pays $4.25M in Year 1, source said. Max $12M with FG% incentives
You have to think Griffen and his agent are on the phone with John right now hammering this thing out.
That's the reality of the Vikings' cap jail.
They have about $173m committed to 35 players in 2021. And that's with Dalvin Cook and Anthony Harris out of contract.
So they'll have approx. $55m to spend on 20 players, without a starting RB or Safety.
If we end up getting one of Griffin/Clowney, we should use next year's picks (2021) to trade for a pass rusher instead of this years. I feel like that would maximize the 2020 season. Losing a 1st rounder this year will could mean we lose a quality starter for this year.
If it ends up being a 1yr deal for Clowney, I'm definitely seeing him in a different Jersey. I'm hoping Seattle steps up and still gets him on a multi year deal averaging 19M. The rumored 1yr with incentives up to 20M concerns me. Guessing it also would include a no tag clause in it.
Yup. Was just thinking the exact same thing. Clowney wants a 1 year deal and no tag clause, and Seattle is like, "we're Not doing this again in a year".
Seems so.
You have to go at least two years. I understand both sides but no one wants to do this again that quickly.
I've got about ten million reasons why Clowney might want to do this again that quickly. 🙂
bigten says:
One major question I have is, is why we still have yet to cut Dickson. Is there a reason I am unaware of?
Nope. It's one of several completely baffling things that this team is doing.
They don't need to cut him right now, they have plenty of room.
He's been injured a ton and ended the year on IR. They likely are working out the details of the injury settlement and seeing how much that will cost them.
I think you are 100% right cha. It is hard to release someone for failing a physical if you can't get them in to take a physical. Denver did it somehow with Flacco so it isn't impossible just more complicated.
This is probably the case with Britt as wee if they decide to release him.
If clowney departs I won't necessarily panic
Because I think the bitter truth is… weighing injury history and production, Clowney he isn't worth what he wants.
If you can get that price down, fantastic.
If not… of well. Don't want to pay big bucks for a guy who's never had double digit sacks and is liable to sit on the bench 4+ games a season.
The options in the draft aren't sexy. But Clowney did seemingly little to elevate the pass rush last year. Where signing clowney doesn't fox the problem, not signing him doesn't make it unfixable.
The key is developing LJ and Green, and hitting on some good rookies in the draft.
The key is not developing Collier and Green.
The key is adding more talent to the defense. Proper talent.
Good teams develop players.
Bad teams (the browns) wait for good teams to develop players and then overpay for them in free agency.
No, good teams generally just have the best talent.