Saudi Arabia may be taking a page out of President Ronald Reagan's strategy book in using oil as part of a broader defense plan.
That's why investors need to be mindful of geopolitics when it comes to predicting crude prices, said David Rosenberg, chief investment strategist at Gluskin Sheff & Associates Inc.
The Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries, whose biggest producer is Saudi Arabia, in November decided against cutting oil output. The decision contributed to a 60 percent plunge in prices from a June high of $107 a barrel to about $45 this month.
The country is likely to maintain oil output after the death on Friday of King Abdullah, who had ruled the monarchy for about 20 years. His successor, King Salman bin Abdul-Aziz Al Saud, said he will continue the policies of his predecessors in a nationally televised speech.
Rosenberg said investors should consider the parallels between oil's recent collapse and the price declines of the mid-1980s.
Reagan, the late president's adopted son, in a March blog posting described how his father's administration used collapsing oil prices to pressure the Soviet Union, whose communist economy was heavily dependent on energy exports.
Today, Saudi Arabia faces a strategic threat from arch-rival Iran, which this week strengthened its military ties to Russia after getting the country's help on building nuclear power plants. The U.S. has imposed economic sanctions on Iran in an effort to stall its uranium enrichment, especially since the radioactive material could be used in weapons of mass destruction.
He said Saudi Arabia may curb production only after squeezing the economies of Russia, Iran and Syria, which has been engaged in a civil war.
Bank of America Merrill Lynch said the collapse in oil prices, while beneficial to the U.S. economy, will negatively affect stocks whose earnings depend on energy demand and infrastructure spending.
The bank estimates the S&P 500 will end the year at 2,200, about 6 percent higher than its January 21 closing price.


I've had so many DMs about the book bin I made back in November, from people asking for DIY instructions. I can't believe it's taken me this long to write a follow up post, but here it is.
I just fumbled my way through this project, fueled by Pinterest pics and memories of woodworking with my dad. It's taken me a bit to remember exactly how I put it together but finally, here it is. Enjoy!
I used 3/4 " wood boards that I bought at Lowe's. If you are following all of my measurements, the width of the board matters.
First lay the base piece on a flat surface and use the wood glue to fix one long side piece onto the base.
Then glue the 4 short side and insert pieces on, and finally the last long side piece.
When the glue is dry, turn the box over so that the base is on top and drill screws through the base and into the side pieces and inserts to reinforce them. This is the trickiest part because you need to be careful to get the screws in the right place, and you need to be gentle so the whole box doesn't collapse before you've reinforced it.
Then it's time to paint the whole thing. You don't technically need to paint the inside of the inserts where the wallpaper will be but I did anyway, for a nicer finish. I did two coats, and given drying time and turning time, it took me a good four days. I also painted the table legs in white, to match the outside of the box.
Now for the fun part, the wallpaper! I had Livettes cut the pieces to size, but you can use a utility knife and do it yourself. Just be careful to measure first! I covered the inside side panels, which ended up being 12 pieces in total, but if you know which way the book bin will face, you needn't cover the panels you won't see.
Lastly, attach the painted table legs, starting with the mounting plates, which come with instructions.
We love the book bin. It keeps piles of books off the floor of the boys' closets and adds color to the bedroom. We love flipping through it at night to pick a book. It's like our own little library. I hope you make one – let me know if you have any questions!
But what's the point? The whole point to making a DIY furniture for your child is to make it yourself as an heirloom. If you're going to buy a cheap Walmart cubby and add legs just buy a cheap bookbin already made??
This is great. I have some particle board laying around. Do you think I could use that?
If it's straight and will hold the screws you choose I can't see why not. Some particle board might be a little too fragile to hold the screws but often the hard packed kind of board works as well as wood. Best of luck!
I'm using an old kitchen cabinet. It has the divide boards as well!
I'll be doing it today for sure.
Great to hear that you're planning to make the book bin and so awesome that you're repurposing an old kitchen cabinet!
The bookbin stands 16″ off the ground. It's the perfect height for the kids to get their own books and to put them back.
Weird question but where did you get the selves on the wall for books?
Sorry for the late response! The wallpaper is a self-adhesive wallpaper. I don't think I'd attempt it will regular paste and stick wallpaper (although I'm sure you could). The self adhesive paper sticks to practically any surface and can be peeled off and readjusted if you make a mistake (my kind of wallpaper).
so cool! thank you for taking time and share it.
small question , what kund of glue do you use for wallpaper? thank again.
Di you possibly have a video of this DIY?
Hi Helen! This is wonderful – I am a first year teacher and would like to recreate this for my classroom. I am also wondering – do you mind sharing a link to where you purchased those floating bookshelves in the background? Thank you!
Oh never mind, I found the link that you had posted on a different blog post! Thanks!
Glad you found it Miriam! Thanks for reading!
So many great books here. You must be a lover. I noticed you have wall shelfs and a magazine rack as well. Can you share those links? Any web resources for finding good books for kids?
I'll update these posts soon with some new additions that we have been loving lately.
I love this. which measurement of wallpaper did you buy and did you have to buy more than one?
In the end, my wallpaper was pre-cut by Livettes into panels.
Save buying the wood and just turn an already-made 3 shelf bookcase on its side horizontally and attach legs to the 4 bottom corners and presto you have a book bin.
All in all, how much did you spend on this project?
I would say that it probably cost about $50 – $60 to make.
Hi there! I am hoping to recreate this and I am not sure how to buy the wallpaper from Livette's for $37. Looks like you would have to buy panels and they start at $40 and not sure if one panel would even be enough – can you specify how to buy it?? Thanks!!
I made the book bin in 2017 so the cost was probably less for me. At the time I gave the measurements to Livette's and they cut it for me for this post. I would say if you figure out the panels you want, you could calculate how many larger pieces you would need and cut them yourself with a stencil cutter or rotary cutter. So for instance, if you needed 6 panels that were 16″ x 16″ you would need one piece that was 19″ x 96″ and you'd have a 3″ strip left over.
You could also use your kids artwork and glue it on, or buy regular wallpaper from the hardware store.
I love this! I'm not very handy and I don't own the proper tools to cut the wood. Can I really go to Lowes and cut them or have them cut? I have never heard of this.
Yes absolutely just make sure u have all ur measurements and the wood picked out. I was there one day when a man was having an entire small shed cut.
Thanks Laureen! Yes Ann, most lumber stores will cut for you or have a cutting station for you to DIY. You do need to ask though!
This is so cute! Thank you for sharing : ).
Hi! What type of wood planks did you purchase?
I bought the wood in the lumber section of Lowes. I believe I used Eastern White Pine and shopping online the lumber is listed under "Appearance Boards". I think any Lowes, Home Depot or other hardware store that sells lumber Should be able to cut pieces to size, or you should be able to DIY there in the store.
What size legs are these? There are lots of options on the link. And none are white.
Thanks for reading! Actually I bought the plain wood grain legs and painted them white (same as the box). The size I got was 6″ and the box sits at the perfect height for all of my boys to reach and grab their own books.
Thank you – I'd love to hear how you go with the book bin!


text:
Conservatism, Environmentalism, Germany, Green Parties, Liberalism, Modernity, Political Ecology, Socialism
The big three of liberalism, conservatism, and socialism has long defined the political outlook of the general public, intellectuals, and academic institutions. However, developments around the world confirm that another system of ideas has joined their ranks. Greens embody modernity's fourth political idea, environmentalism, which in its broad sense includes ecologism as a political movement and an idea.
What does a more detailed picture of this achievement look like? What conclusions can the Greens draw from it? How should a Green party such as Bündnis 90 / Die Grünen in Germany describe themselves?
Before answering these questions, it is necessary to understand how a new concept such as environmentalism enters the pantheon of ideas. The paradigms of modernity were not always securely in place. They are not Platonic ideals or eternal 'idols' of being, but were promoted to their lofty positions by secular, historical processes.
The environmental paradigm
Liberalism, firstborn among the political ideas associated with modernity, was the political spearhead of Enlightenment thought and of an emerging bourgeoisie. Conservatism came second, despite its dignified and somehow eternal appearance. It was a reaction to liberalism, the Enlightenment, and the transition to a bourgeois society. It may have longed for the old but was nevertheless a dialectical spark, a stubborn reflection on the cost of change. Socialism was the third in a thoroughly antagonistic union. It responded to the plight of those who were freed from the old feudal relations of production and who gathered in the new industrial cities in the 19th century. Leaving aside the regressive authoritarians of the first half of the 20th century, it would take more than 100 years to come up with another fundamental idea, in the form of environmentalism. As its predecessors had done, it emerged to answer a specific problem of its time.
While the answers to the social question hinged on a critique of modern relations of production and focused on systemically mediated exploitative relationships between people, the new environmental approach focused on the technological context which enabled the conflict between humans and nature. The overexploitation of nature and the poisoning of the environment was at its centre. Technology and the material processes of production and consumption were no longer accepted as neutral or without alternative, but were open for criticism and change. The environmental critique, which called for more environmentally friendly and proportional 'green' alternatives, was popularised by experiences such as the nuclear disasters in Chernobyl and Fukushima, as well as by proof that successful action is actually possible. Many rivers have been brought back to life, and the global ban on chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) halted the steady depletion of the ozone layer.
The environmental paradigm did not primarily respond to the material emergencies of the 19th century, but that does not reduce it to lightweight idealism. Environmentalism puts the relationship between humans and nature at the centre of attention and is in fact more 'materialistic' than the social paradigm. Climate change clearly damages the material interests of the poor, as the millions of 'climate refugees' show. Environmentalism is not just an idea 'for the rich', otherwise free of worries and hardship.
Technology and the material processes of production and consumption were no longer accepted as neutral or without alternative, but were open for criticism and change.
At the same time, the environmental paradigm is not a class paradigm. It does not express, in the manner of early liberalism, the position of the aspiring bourgeoisie. It is neither the conservative reaction of a feudal upper class to bourgeois revolution nor a working-class ideology of struggle against capitalism. Sustainable living and business offer something to everyone. Sustainability stands for the universal elements of a good life – clean air, healthy food, sustainable development – that should be accessible to all.
The environmental approach is thus a universal one that reaches well beyond the globalist ideas of economic liberalism and free trade. The working-class movement countered liberal globalism with the international solidarity of the working people – at least in places where it did not succumb to the drug of nationalism. Environmentalism, for its part, is concerned with problems that do not stop at national borders such as radioactive fallout and greenhouse gas emissions. Alongside economic globalisation, climate warming is the ultimate global process. Its globality is why national populism has its head in the sand on environmental issues, especially climate. The admission of human responsibility would directly lead to solidarity beyond the borders of the nation-state.
Global warming today is a side-effect of our confrontation with nature. It strikes back at human activity according to natural laws, triggered by the release of too high a level of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. In this light, environmentalism, often dismissed as somewhat insubstantial, appears rather more concrete than the ideas of those who oppose it. Jean-Paul Sartre described such events as 'counter-finalities', the consequences of human interventions in nature which wind up being hostile to humans without this hostility originating from a human enemy. For nature and its laws are not personal adversaries. The fight against counter-finalities does not simply involve a struggle in which social groups side with each other in the name of solidarity and then operate via an 'us versus them' model. Rather it is an 'us versus it' fight against the impersonal agency of natural processes, however human the initial trigger.
This new paradigm has reached the hearts and minds of millions of people in one and a half generations. It is one of the most important ways in which we relate to the living world, and is expressed in a differentiated form of politics. Its scope can be seen in the areas with which it has an immediate link, which directly concern nine out of fourteen current German federal ministries: environment, nature conservation, nuclear safety, food, consumer protection, agriculture, research and science, health, construction and housing, transport, economy, energy, economic cooperation, and development. Even if the Greens in Germany worked exclusively on 'environmental' topics, they would not be the niche party that they were long labelled. Their main theme alone gives them a political portfolio that can easily compete with, and often outperform, their competitors' core offerings in both breadth and urgency.
The emergence of alternative technologies, standards, and procedures is the result of a long reflection on the environment impact of human processes. The growth of renewable energy is a triumphant example of this development. The energy transition is reorganising of a fundamental sector of the economy and a comprehensive environmental transformation is on the agenda. Evidence that environmentalism – the innovative and highly attractive Green 'core brand identity' – has become one of the main ideas of the modern age.
Broadening the horizon
The Greens' environmental focus provides a solid footing from which to extend their reach even further. The party has long claimed to be a 'full-range provider' covering the spectrum of political issues. And they already do, as the the Green-led government in Baden-Württemberg, Europe's most technically innovative region, is proving. The Greens have wisely not allowed themselves to be lured onto the slippery slopes of a 'people's party' project. This concept is based on relatively homogeneous core constituencies that are only present on a limited basis in German society. The Greens have avoided the traps of both narrow interest group representation and catch-all politics that led the Christian Democratic Union and Social Democrats in Germany to a considerable lack of clarity, high affinity for lobbyists, political syncretism, and all kinds of lazy and formulaic compromises.
But if the German Greens are not a people's party, then what are they and what is their path to greater relevance? Reinhard Bütikofer has made an important contribution to this debate. He recommends that the Greens see themselves as an "Orientierungs-, Bewegungs- und Dialogpartei." The party must maintain a clear sense of its origins as a social movement and engages with institutional processes without losing itself within them (Bewegung). At the same time, the party should provide an orientation for society as a whole and define a new, future-oriented mainstream (Orientierung). In Bütikofer's words, it is necessary to "identify fundamental reform projects and fight to make them happen, regardless of the political constellation." This objective requires a special, inclusive style of politics (Dialog). Being able to establish and maintain political hegemony should not be confused with being a party that claims to have the answer to everything. Instead, dialogue serves to "consciously create points of connectivity within one's own viewpoints for the benefit of others." The purpose of political communication within a democracy is not expressive self-aesthetics. The point is to express one's own themes in such a way that they are comprehensible, convincing, and tie in as closely as possible with the concerns of who you are speaking to.
the party should provide an orientation for society as a whole and define a new, future-oriented mainstream
Hegemony is also built through 'outward strength'. The German Greens need intellectual and cultural bridges to different social milieus, and to develop a more independent and conscious use of the content and semantics that originally took shape in other traditions. In his book Who We Could Be, party co-chair Robert Habeck shows how language can create realities as well as being an instrument for processing them. If the Greens are to take their claim to autonomy and greater relevance seriously, then they must engage in the semantic work of re-creating or reformulating traditional language and concepts that can be of use today – even if these came from the liberal, social and conservative traditions.
A good point of departure is an analysis of the recent history of the liberal, social, and conservative forces in Germany as 'embodiments' of the other political paradigms.
Liberalism: the second string to the bow
The traditional representative of liberalism in the German party landscape is the Free Democratic Party (FDP). Liberalism, however, is older than both the FDP and the Federal Republic itself – and has multiple different manifestations. As with all political paradigms, a reasonable question to ask is "who are you", closely followed by "and how many of you are there?"
In the early days of the Federal Republic, the FDP was a small party and a haven for nationalists seeking influence. But the nationalists' progress was curtailed in the 1960s, and the party became a forum for lively debate and embraced the traditional left-liberal line on social and civil liberties. Following the victory of market-radical liberalism in the late 1970s and early 1980s, the FDP departed from left-liberalism in a move that weakened the party in the long term.
The newly formed Greens was among the parties that gained most from the FDP's radical embrace of the free market. The Young Democrats, the former youth wing of the FDP, shifted their focus to the Greens. It was not not just them, the Green party was in step with a broad radical democratic zeitgeist that was liberal but with a 'small l'. Civil rights activists and members of the women's, lesbian, gay, peace, and anti-racism movements made the Greens into the party responsible for an epoch-making 'fundamental liberalisation', which, to use a Heideggerian phrase, could be designated as a new 'clearing of being'. The Greens became both the legitimate heir of German left-liberalism and its innovating force. One can even speak of a second identity comparable to environmentalism which yoked the Greens to the Enlightenment and the freedom and democracy movements of the modern age.
the Green party was in step with a broad radical democratic zeitgeist that was liberal but with a 'small l'
Green liberalism does not mean political clientelism in favour of the market's lone wolves. It is far more associated with claims to universal applicability. The Kantian aspiration to act according to maxims that could be willed into universal law is deeply embedded within the German Greens. The environmental paradigm, rooted in a concern for a common natural world shared by all people including future generations, already contained aspects of this universalism. Similarly, socio-political solutions should be universalisable – acceptable to all, or at least to as many people as possible. They should be inclusive and benefit the most disadvantaged members of society. Green liberalism and individualism stand for self-determination from a universalising and decidedly pro-social perspective.
This special liberal claim was in evidence during the refugee debate. While others flirted with populism, the Greens remained true to their fundamental beliefs. They now reap the rewards. They increasingly represent a 'backlash against the backlash', a broad democratic majority who oppose hateful rhetoric and the regressive spirit of populism, as well as of a broad 'liberal' camp extending far beyond traditional liberalism.
But Green liberalism is also about effective market regulation to provide the necessary conditions to direct market forces towards environmentally friendly forms of production. The Greens must be the force for intelligent, sustainable innovation across the board, including digitalisation, artificial intelligence, and autonomous vehicles. Green liberalism is in this sense a broader synonym for 'ordo-liberal'. It opposes market radicalism that wants to reduce regulation and exclude environmental and social costs of production.
The Green conceptualisation of the social
As the FDP, the German Social Democrats (SPD) squandered strategic opportunities. The party fought against the new social movements of the 1970s, including the environmental movement. The party's environmental deficit might be surprising, given that the transformation of industrial societies is actually rather close to the concerns of this long-established party. But corporatist involvement in the industrial policy of the Federal Republic slowed down the environmental reorientation of the Social Democrats – and continues to do so, as shown by the recent battles over the brown coal phase-out.
The shift towards Tony Blair's 'New Labour' under Chancellor Schroeder plunged the party into further difficulties. The Hartz IV labour-market reforms of the red-green Schroeder-government triggered a long-lasting, unfinished dispute within the SPD and the German Left as a whole – including within Greens. The SPD leaders made this attempt at modernisation to respond to the socio-economic upheavals of the time. But the move spoke to a more profound change in the idea of the human, a move from the classic homo solidaritus of the social democratic tradition and towards the homo economicus of the liberal economic tradition. Participation in three grand coalitions from 2005 onwards further weakened the party's social democratic identity. It is now gripped by a deep melancholy, unable explain the task of social democracy in the 21st century.
Social issues remain very much part of the outlook of the German Greens. Unlike the SPD, it was never a Fordist party. The Greens lacked the Social Democrats' breadth of members, their symbiotic relationship to the trade unions, and their hierarchical organisational thinking. Instead, the Greens live and think in 'flat' hierarchies, which imply an understanding of subsidiarity by which the state refuses to take decisions in a paternalistic and authoritarian fashion, but promotes self-determination and personal responsibility. Here the Greens are the bearers of a special 'social liberal' heritage. This heritage corresponds to the individualisation of today's society but differs from the traditional middle class-oriented FDP individualism, which would like to leave the work of political universalisation to the invisible hand of the market.
the Greens live and think in 'flat' hierarchies, which imply an understanding of subsidiarity by which the state refuses to take decisions in a paternalistic and authoritarian fashion, but promotes self-determination and personal responsibility.
The social and welfare policies of the Greens are based on three pillars: Kantian citizenship-based claims of self-determination and universalisability; empathy for the various social problems of our time (housing, poverty in childhood and old age, the care crisis, social exclusion); and the knowledge that the poorest suffer most from the consequences of environmental degradation.
The Greens employ a concept of justice that brings together a number of different aspects. The lack of gender justice is not seen as, to use a Marxist term, a 'secondary contradiction' of the social. They stand for equal opportunity and fair access to education, and for a 'policy of recognition' that supports individuals to develop their own particular identities and live free from constraint and discrimination. And they know that the demand for distributive justice is not obsolete – nor can it be displaced by a focus on ethnicity. Social issues should not be disarticulated as the struggle of 'our own kind' against migrants, refugees, and 'foreign workers'. This social approach, which is decidedly anti-populist and anti-nationalist as well as committed to the Enlightenment, is an important point of conflict between the Greens and sections of the German Left (Die Linke) party.
Conservative perspectives
The Christian Democrats represent the conservative camp in the Federal Republic. The Christian Democratic Union party is rooted in three traditions: conservative, Christian social, and liberal. At present, it is suffering from a two-front war brought on by its Bavarian sister party, the Christian Social Union (CSU). The CSU has been sharpening its own conservative profile by positioning itself against 'the refugees', and by doing so has only strengthened the far-right populist Alternative for Germany (AfD). A second, internal party conflict was directed against Angela Merkel – their own chancellor. Her refugee policy was the primary target, as well as a more general criticism of the (rudimentary) modernisation Merkel has imposed upon the party.
What do the internal struggles of the conservative camp mean for the Greens? Do they have to mean anything at all? Attempts during the early years of the German Greens to commit the party to a right-wing conservative, 'blood and soil' form of environmentalism thankfully failed. The Greens have gone in the opposite direction towards liberal environmentalism with a social face. What is then the point of today's Greens reflecting on conservatism?
The Green Minister President in the state of Baden-Württemberg Winfried Kretschmann answers this question in his 2018 book What We Want to Rely On. He argues for a "new idea of the conservative" and underlines how the environmentalism and civil liberties-focused and socially conceived liberalism of the Greens have remarkable intersections with cosmopolitan, non-reactionary conservatism. Environmentalism is in fact grounded in an Enlightenment dialectic which found its first home in conservative thinking – namely in the awareness that revolutionary change brings about not only positive but also destructive consequences. The reflection on the potential effects of technology so central to the environmental paradigm is well established within conservative thought too.
An individual's motivation to protect the environment, the climate or biodiversity can be powered by different ideas
Christian conservatives imbue the environment with their own meaning and talk of 'preserving the integrity of creation'. An individual's motivation to protect the environment, the climate or biodiversity can be powered by different ideas from scientific insights to moral, philosophical or aesthetic considerations and theological positions. Making use of these overlaps is a central task for Green 'ideas policy'. One notion around which to orient such work is John Rawls's 'overlapping consensus', according to which groups with apparently inconsistent views on certain issues can agree on key principles of justice.
A second meaning of conservatism, linked to the Latin root conservare, to keep intact, lies in the preservation of the open society. History shows that the stability of democracies depends on conservative support, and that risks emerge when conservatives shift their allegiance to populist and ethnic nationalist camps.
A Green approach for the 21st century
The German Greens have long realised that they are more than the 'black sheep' children of social democracy or the libertarian/anarchic or romantic/conservative flesh and blood of the middle classes. The Greens insist on their independence. With environmentalism, they embody an essential human concern that shapes modern lifestyles and determines the ethical, aesthetic and socio-cultural demands of millions of people. Combined with a spirit of cosmopolitanism and social empathy, their approach is sufficiently viable and sustainable to provide an outline for a constructive political approach for the 21st century – just as the other parties embodying earlier political currents did in their time.
The Greens can no longer shy away from acknowledging their place as a political force and a current of thought within the pantheon of the great ideas of modernity.
The Nature of Green Populism? Politics
By Amanda Machin, Oliver Wagener
From Nigel Farage's Great British Countryside to the fields of Bavaria, what role does the environment play in far-right discourse?
'What we have achieved has to become the benchmark' – Interview with Reinhard Bütikofer Politics
By Reinhard Bütikofer, Roderick Kefferpütz
Why the Jamaica coalitions talks with Merkel failed and where things will go from here.
The New Dutch reactionaries Politics
By Tom Vasseur
Thierry Baudet, leader of the Forum for Democracy, could be the new face of the Dutch populist right.
Reinhard Olschanski

redpajama_set_name: RedPajamaCommonCrawl


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text:
Tilman Robinson – 'A Winter's Night' on an autumn afternoon
By Miriam on Sunday, April 29, 2012
Tilman Robinson has been awarded the 2012 APRA Commission for the Melbourne Jazz Fringe Festival. His piece If On A Winter's Night A Traveller, framed around the Italo Calvino novel of the same name, will be premiered at the MJFF concert on Sunday afternoon 13 May. The book is a post modern novel with an interesting nested style – a main narrative that is broken regularly by the first chapters of other books. There's information going back and forth between the sections, with the seemingly random 'first chapters' having an impact on the main narrative.
We asked Robinson first about his composition, including whether (if at all) any of that unique structure found its way into the music he's composed and what inspired him to choose this work by Italo Calvino as the starting point for his composition…
Tilman Robinson: It was by chance, really, that Calvino's text became the focus of the commission. As typically happens, I had left my application to the commission fairly late and was looking for ideas. I had just begun reading If On A Winter's Night A Traveller at the time and was mesmerised by its unique structure. It was the form you mention more than the content that spoke to me (in a musical sense). This idea of 'first chapters', of short little narrative gestures that leave you hanging for more, ties in nicely with a recent resolution (almost the New Year's kind) to write shorter pieces. With this in mind I was able to create ten short unrelated pieces corresponding to each of what I call the 'narrative chapters'.
Linking them in the novel, however, are these amazing sections where Calvino speaks to you directly as a reader, inviting you to question the novel you are reading and indeed the way you read novels. I like to call these the 'conversational chapters'. I decided to link my ten short pieces with a series of solo, duo, trio or group improvisations in which the musicians performing the work can speak directly to their audience. The juxtaposition between the through-composed 'narrative movements' and the loosely controlled 'conversational movements' became the main focus of the piece. As such, the suite is both a suite of small pieces and one long piece, much in the same way that the novel is both a collection of short stories and one long novel.
Jazz-planet: Do you find much of your inspiration in literature? Is this a new thing, or specifically about this book?
Robinson: I have used text for inspiration before but in the past it has been primarily poetry. One of the first pieces I ever wrote in my undergrad was a setting of Dylan Thomas's poem 'And death shall have no dominion' for big band and a vocalist. I also wrote a piece for eight voices last year based on Bertold Brecht's Obituary for XX. These are both settings of texts but this the first time I have used the form of a novel to dictate the form of my work.
In 2009 I was commissioned to write a series of works by JazzWA. Similarly to this work for the MJFF, I decided to write a suite and two other pieces in response to the photography of Gregory Crewdson. I tried to draw inspiration from the form and composition of his highly staged photography as well as the themes of his work. Form is a constant source of frustration for me so to be able to outsource thinking about it is great 🙂
Jazz-planet: You've recently come over from WA. Is it a permanent move? What's the reason for the journey?
Robinson: My decision to move to Melbourne from Perth was primarily for a change of scenery and scene. The Perth music scene is fantastically vibrant and continues to produce amazing musicians (some of whom are playing in my ensemble) but I found some of the limiting factors such as distance and isolation a little frustrating. I'm not saying you can't build a wonderful career in Perth but I just wanted to try it elsewhere. When my sister, Melanie, who lives in Melbourne, announced she was pregnant I decided to move over to be closer to my first niece. It tipped the scales on a question I had been pondering for years.
Tilman Robinson. Source: supplied
Robinson: Network of Lines is a new ensemble I have put together specifically for the performance of this commission and includes some of my favourite musicians. In choosing the instrumentation, I decided to remove woodwinds from the equation. I have nothing against woodwind instruments and their players but I wanted to challenge myself by writing for an ensemble that doesn't too closely resemble a big band; my primary ensemble in the past. Having recently relocated from Perth, it was difficult to put together an ensemble of people I knew and trusted.
Funnily, a lot of the people in the ensemble are people I have played with previously in Perth such as Callum G'Froerer (trumpet) and Brett Thompson (guitar) who have both recently moved over. We have played together for years so to be able to include them is very special to me. Berish Bilander (piano) and I studied at the WA Academy of Performing Arts (WAAPA) and last year we were both invited to the Banff Centre in Canada to take part in a workshop which rekindled our musical relationship. I had heard Hugh Harvey (drums) and Sam Pankhurst (bass) in a variety of different ensembles over the years and have always enjoyed the openness and interaction in their playing. This will be the first time I work with them and I am very excited.
I have been trying to find a way to work with my sister Melanie (cello) for a long time. Unfortunately we have been separated by distance but now that we are finally in the same city again that dream has become a reality. I was looking for a violinist and Melanie recommended Xani Kolac whose work in her group The Twoks I have always admired. Both Melanie and Xani have a unique and improvisatory approach to their instruments making them great choices for this project.
Finally, I have been trying to find a way to work with Peter Knight for almost a year now. I am very glad that he agreed to bring his wealth of experience to this project. To work with such fantastic musicians is a real honour and hopefully the ensemble will continue into the future. Who knows? This could be start of a beautiful friendship.
Jazz-planet: What other projects are you currently working on?
Robinson: At the moment I'm just trying to find my feet playing and writing in Melbourne. I have only been here two months so this commission is the first major work I have undertaken as a resident. I am also currently mixing down a recording I did of my music with the Mace Francis Orchestra (MFO) before I left Perth. I had been a member of that amazing big band for almost seven years before I left and they agreed to record some of the pieces I had written for the band over the years. Unfortunately, the album won't be ready in time for the performance of the commission.
Jazz-planet: What music are you listening to now that's really catching your interest?
Robinson: This is always such a difficult question because there is so much catching my interest all the time! I'm going to try to limit myself to five albums here because otherwise I'll talk about it all day.
One album I have been listening to consistently for over a year now is bass saxophonist Colin Stetson's New History Warfare Vol. 2: Judges. Colin is an exceptional musician who has been a great inspiration for me. He is equally at home playing his extremely physically demanding solo work and lending his voice to contemporary bands such as Bon Iver, Arcade Fire and Feist.
I have also been listening to a couple of great contemporary song cycles; Anaïs Mitchell's Hadestown and Sarah Kirkland Snider's Penelope. The two are very different musically but capture a wonderful sense of narrative in recreating the Greek myths of Orpheus and The Odyssey respectively.
'Progressive bluegrass' (I hate genre names) band the Punch Brothers are a new discovery for me but I haven't been able to stop listening to their impeccably written and performed music.
It'd be hard for me not to mention the entire Bedroom Community label and its releases at this point because it includes some of my absolute favourite composers and musicians in the forms of Nico Muhly, Sam Amidon, Ben Frost and Valgeir Sigurðsson. Each is extremely different but they are able to collaborate beautifully in creating the music of the others. The four have the kind of musical relationship that all other musicians envy. Well, at least I do. (I have to admit I'm a bit of a Bedcom fanboy).
For the past 3 years I have been coming back to two amazing ECM albums, Christian Wallumrød's The Zoo is Far and Nik Bärtsch's Holon. Any time I am doing any significant travel these are the first two albums I turn to. There's something calming about their simplistic minimal intricacy.
Finally, closer to home, Peter Knight's two most recent releases, Fish Boast of Fishing and Residual have really interested me. They are part of the reason I am so excited to be working with him! The other being that he's such a nice guy.
That's way more than five albums but hey, there's a lot I could add to the list…
Jazz Planet: What are you reading now?
Tilman: I'm not really getting a chance to read too much right now but there are a few things on my list to get started on once I finish writing this commission. If on a Winter's Night a Traveller is the first and only Calvino I have read and I am really looking forward to sinking my teeth into some of his other novels, starting with Invisible Cities. Also on my list is the Gormenghast Trilogy by Mervyn Peake. Actually, it's been on my list for years but now that there's a copy of Titus Groan sitting on my bedside table I think it will become a reality. One of these days I really have to sit down and finish Alex Ross's The Rest is Noise too. It's one of the most engaging histories of modern music I've ever read. So engaging I don't seem to be able to finish it!
Find Tilman Robinson on the web:
www.tilmanrobinson.com
Twitter @tilmanr
Facebook www.facebook.com/tilmanrobinson
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Thank you for such a throuroughly written article. I espe. found your comments useful about the 2 week mark at room temp being around when L. sanfranciscensis appears (or wakes up from dormancy in this case?).
Like many others who have been following your informative threads here at TFL, I've started maintaining my starter at room temp. much longer then before (at least 3 days per week). When I do store it the other 4 days, I've been keeping it in a separate small frig that is set to around 50F. This seems to be making a difference in the activity and the flavor and smell (all positive). I wonder whether you think that is beneficial in the long run or not, or if it is still too cool. I'm sure it would be even better if kept at room temp all the time. If I can figure out a system and set of recipes to save and use the daily discard more, I may do that yet.
I use different temperatures for different reasons in different situations. For culture preservation, I like to store my starter in the fridge. This is when I won't be feeding it and I just want to arrest its development as much as possible. I make sure the starter is healthy, active and vigorous first. Then I feed it and put it directly into the fridge. I don't let it sit out and grow for a time first, because I don't want it using up half its food supply right out of the starting gate---it could be in there a long time. That's for storage, or any time I just don't have time to fuss with it.
For maintenance, I ferment and refresh it at room temp---maybe once a day or three times a day, but I let it live its refreshment cycles on the counter to promote and balance the right organisms---only chilling it when I want to arrest it again. I avoid successive feedings at cold temps because that translates into multiple generations. The populations grow and multiply slowly, and at different related rates---some so slowly that they might be flushed out by successive feeding over time, and conditions may change so as to allow different species to dominate. Natural selection gets its impact through multiple generations. That's why, when I refrigerate, I don't feed until I can bring it back out and refresh for a few cycles at room temp again.
Great post! Your dedication and excellent write-up make for an enlightening read.
After my recent protease problems, I decided to ditch all my existing starters and start fresh so I have been through all the 'phases'recently. I'm pleased to say that from mixing up a crazy brew of 11 grain 'seed culture', I now have 5 healthy starters.
Regarding the apparent delayed yeast growth (lactobacilli being the first to populate)...I wonder if perhaps the lactobacilli produce specific enzymes (maltose phosphorylase is one that I've seen mentioned) that are conducive to yeast growth. I've read that in a given culture there can often by symbiotic relationships between lactobacilli and yeast, each able to metabolize different sugars hence a peaceful coexistence rather than competition. Is it also possible that the lactobacilli 'win out' over certain bacteria which, if left unchecked would inhibit or directly compete with the yeast?
I've noted the changing aromas from my starter during it's daily feed cycle. Initially, the aromas are those I would associate with lactic acid production,sometimes followed by a sourer smell (acetic?) before finally the yeasty aromas (esters, alcohol) dominate. I suspect that starters go through a mini-version of the '4 phase' process each time they are fed. If that's the case, then the same must also apply to the mixing of bread dough - useful for monitoring progress of fermentation and perhaps taking advantage of this for specific flavour profiles in bread?
I have been known to use cider vinegar to rescue a starter which has a continuing bout of the 'Leucs'.
Once you have yeast growing, you won't see the leucs again. They are transient and can't persist in a type I starter. FWIW, I don't recommend adding vinegar to sourdough starter, because it isn't good for yeast. And fostering yeast is really what this whole exercise is about, because without it, you don't have leavening.
I suspect that starters go through a mini-version of the '4 phase' process each time they are fed.
Thank you for your Part 1 and now Part 2 essay on sourdough culture populations. I must be turning into a total nerd on this subject since I seem to be absorbed by the content of your research.
After reading the above, I am now thinking that the ratio of old starter I keep to feed may be more important than I had realized. I have been using 50g starter, 75g water, 75g flour on a daily room temp schedule. That amounts to a 1:1.5:1.5 ratio. If I am interpreting you work correctly, I should be able to lower the pH some by using a 1:1:1 ratio. In effect tripling the amount every feeding. That would have the effect of limiting the food supply and causing a more thorough consumption of sugars and lower pH. Does that sound right to you? All other things being constant, starving the starter to some degree could create a stronger sour, if I am understanding you.
Eric, in theory, yes. For one thing you are leaving more acid and lactobacilli in the mix from refreshment to refreshment (concentration-wise), and if the feeding schedule remains the same, you should see more acid accumulate. But, if at the same time you increase the feeding frequency, you can also acheive the opposite effect.
The danger in aiming for low pH in the maintenance of your starter, is that you run the risk of losing your L. sf, because it is more sensitive to low pH than the other lactobacilli. Also you could lose leavening power both in reduced numbers of yeast and reduced vigor. It's a delicate balance :-) You may or may not find it a better alternative to work at increasing the sour in your pre-ferments, rather than in your "stock culture."
That said, Pamela (xaipete) started feeding her starter 1:1:1 once a day, using a blend of 75% bread and 25% ww flours. I think maybe that's what Leader was intending, but can't be at all sure. Maybe she will chime in here and give us a report on how it is performing now. I know it increased the sour for her, but we didn't know how its leavening power would hold up over time.
Things are going along very well with my starters now. It took them about a week of daily feeding at a 1:1:1 ratio for them to *taste* sour--I never was able to detect a change in odor at that point. After that, I firmed them up at 1:3/4:/1/3 (flour to water to starter), let them double, and then put them in the refrigerator. (I have one WW starter and one White starter). It has been several or more weeks now and I've been using both starters and re-building them about every 4 to 5 days. I had also begun to notice that my WW starter was really smelling and tasting sour, more sour than my White one, which didn't smell sour at all. Last time I re-built them, I substituted a little of the WW starter for the White starter and that made the White starter a lot more sour tasting and now it is starting to smell sour too.
Regarding the 75% bread and 25% WW flours: I did do that when I was working with the 1:1:1 everyday feeding stage, but ceased that after I firmed them up and stored them in the fridge. Since I have both types, at this point it is easy enough to incorporate some of the WW starter in with the White when feeding.
So things are going very well (thanks mostly to Debbie's long-suffering advice). I'm continuing to work at making both WW and White Sourdough breads, and they are improving with each batch. Sourdough is a new venture for me so I'm still on a learning curve.
It is most kind of you to share your knowledge.
Thanks for sharing your wonderful research with this community. I have read much over the years on the various theories of starter development but alas very little evidence based. Thanks again.
Thank you, Debra. As Gavin mentioned, there is a lot of information out there about sourdough cultures, but precious little of it is evidence based. Now, we just need to find a baking enthusiast who still has lots of money, and would like to fund all the experiments you can devise.
I want to add my thanks to those already expressed. Nice work and a story well-told.
I see you have experienced what draws some of us to communities like TFL. Few have friends in their analogue relationships who would tolerate a discussion in depth of sourdough microbiology, not to mention get really excited about it.
I am new to the TFL. but have become an avid reader at this site, partly because of your superb input. Debra,..just wanted to say that you have done an excellent job of clarifying the microbiology involved in any "culture"..into a subject that NON-scientists can readily understand. Not, an easy job. Sourdough culture IS science,...not Hokey Pokey. All said,..this is a NON-exact outcome though, given that we are left with many variables to contend with. It is biology, not chemistry. Understanding microbiology certainy should enhance our ability to create good sourdough starters. Sorry...for the looooong type.
Ten Star Thank You Debra!
Thank you Debra! I am so thankful for your contribution. The greatest part about it is that it all makes so much sense!
"...if given the proper stimulus they can return to active metabolism within minutes through the process of spore germination..."
Within MINUTES! Gosh wouldn't it be great to find out what those catalysts are? Just put them concentrated into various dropper bottles and be able to pick out one or more favorite Lactic acid bacteria to encourage? Sort of quick jump the evolutionary process?
Then the initial recipe might be reduced to read: Instant Sourdough >> 2 drops potion #9, 2 Tbs Pineapple juice, 2 Tbs whole flour!
And minutes, yes---activation is like flipping a switch from OFF to ON. As long as it is Off, nothing is going to happen. But once On, then they can germinate, start growing and utilizing sugars again. With yeast, that ON switch appears to be controlled by a pH thermostat. At least, that's what the evidence seems to point to.
Hi Debra, and thanks for these fantastic posts!
There's so much food for thought here, though I love that it distills down to a simple method, the only method I ever used and which worked like a charm. I think my biggest takeaway is the one-time-deal thing, which had never really occurred to me before. Then there's the wave of metabolic changes that you so aptly liken to a relay race! And I guess from time to time we get frustrated and mess up the attempts of the microbes to pass the baton!
I've been meaning to ask this question for a while, and you're the person I would really like an answer from, if you have one, so pardon me for posing it here on your blog!
I am wondering why my sourdough bread increases in sourness even after I freeze it. (I like it, by the way, I'm just non-plussed.) I would have thought that freezing temperatures would just stop the metabolic action in its tracks. But no, the bread continues to get more sour for 2 or 3 days more even after freezing. Any idea why?
David, good to see you again, and thank you :-) The flavor changes are a bit beyond my scope, but I think this has more to do with chemical changes happening in the bread as it ages, rather than bio-chemical action of living organisms. All the sourdough critters are killed during the baking, but chemical and physical changes still occur which affect taste and texture. Maybe some of those changes enhance or magnify the tongue's ability to pick out the acid notes from among the other flavors. Any cereal chemists here who can shed some light?
Several years ago, a friend gave me a whole bunch of ripe peaches from a trip down south. To preserve them, I ended up mixing up several batches of pie filling, freezing in, and then popping them out of lined pie plates, and storing them as individual "pie-cicles," I call them. I also baked off a few pies right away, to adjust the sugar, spices and thickening. The fresh pies and the ones baked within a month or two after freezing all had a slight bitterness to them, that I would describe as a peach pit taste. But once they got past 3 months in the freezer, the bitterness disappeared, and the flavor kept improving with time. I wasn't the only one who noticed. I don't know if it was the freezing specifically that took away the bitterness, or just the slow aging with the other ingredients, and without threat of bacterial spoilage. But the veil of bitterness was lifted, and other flavors were enhanced.
I know that doesn't particularly answer your question, but it was evidence to me that some flavor changes happen or continue even in the freezer.
Hi Debra, and thanks for thinking about this and your memory of a related situation. Of course the critters who turned the flour and water into bread have long since shuffled off their part of this mortal coil by the time I am tasting my loaves.
I remember in BBA Reinhart, in the section on Poilane miches, tells the reader that Poilane himself prefers the bread after three days, though the author is not convinced. I am convinced that bread (and peach pie too, under the right circumstances) changes flavor over time. Of course many sourdough bakers have pointed out that you can't tell how sour your bread will be until at least the day after baking. I guess now we can simply extend the time over which flavors change, and as you said somewhere, remember that one culture's spoilage is another's flavor perfection!
First off thanks for posting all this great info. Lots of this goes right over my head but like Hammelmans book every time I reread it I get another tidbit or gem. I was having trouble getting my breads sour. I started a new starter thinking this was the cause until I read this paragraph. "Just keep in mind that the first days of the seed culture process have nothing to do with developing flavor or even fostering the most desirable species. The object is simply to move through the succession and get the starter up and running. The fine-tuning begins there. Once yeast are growing well, choose the hydration, temperature and feeding routine that suits you, and the populations will shift in response to the flour and conditions that you set up for maintenance." A light went on at this point when I realized my maintenence is making my starter "what" it is, not being old or tainted in some way. It seems obvious but I need to be hit over the head multiple times before I get it. I do have one question.
The starter goes through each phase laying the groundwork for the next phase. Is it possible to get stuck in a phase and have a starter that appears healthy and alive? I'm thinking of the stage that has bacteria that produce C02. Would this stage raise bread but not give the flavor that is desireable, giving us a "false positive"?
Thanks again Crumb Bum :-) It's nice to know that it makes sense. Yes, and how could the first few days be about flavor if you don't even have sourdough organisms growing yet. The gassy bacteria are only there for a day or two, and so timing is critical if they are to be employed as leavening. I think this would be classified as a type 0, or "spontaneous" sourdough---idli batter being an example. (I've never had idli, but I would assume that it has a very unique flavor.) But if you keep feeding, these naturally disappear, so idli batter has to be started anew each time.
When you keep feeding, it transforms into a type I sourdough, which is the kind most people here are aiming for. Type I sourdough is a mixed culture of LAB (mainly lactobacilli) and wild yeasts. The more consistant you are in maintenance, the more likely you are to have just one or two of each dominating. The more hap-hazard you are with temperature and feeding, the more likely it will be more of a mixed bag because their environment keeps changing, favoring (or not favoring) various LAB at differnt times.
We understand intellectually that the organisms came from the flour to begin with, but we sometimes forget that they are still there, ever present, and always being added back with each feeding of our cultures. They just aren't all growing. If we have lost a disireable fraction, or we want to foster a different LAB population, we need only to make the sourdough environment friendly to that organism. So changing your maintenance routine may be all it takes to bring about a change in the character of your starter. Temperature, hydration, feeding rate and schedule, flour---these are all things that we can manipulate to change that environment. The challenge is in figuring out what changes to make, and having the patience to give it time to take effect. But you can often fix an existing starter faster than you can make a new one and get it to where you want it.
I realized my maintenence is making my starter "what" it is, not being old or tainted in some way.
Exactly. And it also means that it doesn't matter who's formula you used to create it. It isn't a Silverton starter, or a BBA or Hamelman starter, or even a Debra Wink starter. It's a Crumb Bum starter :-) All the different formulae are just different roads (some bumpier than others) to get you to the same place. From there you can go any number of directions by how you maintain the starter and manipulate the dough.
Thanks Debra for your work and for taking the time to post it here.
Yours is the formula I started with over a year ago and have been happily baking and producing great breads since.
I can't even remember how I arrived at my maintenance schedule, refreshing amounts etc. but now I feel inspired (and confident) to branch out and experiment with my starter.
My husband's a former bakery owner and he's wild about your post also!!
Thank you for the detailed and quick answers to my questions. I have just a few more questions and then I will leave you alone, probably, unless I come up with more questions. You have ruined me, I made and used a starter for years. I did not care how it worked or why, it just worked. Now I want to truely understand it in order to control it.
My questions are about transfering the starter to a preferment and then a dough. You told EHanner that instead of going 1:1:1 with his stock starter he might want to tweak his preferment instead. You cited Lsan. and yeast could be weakened in such a low ph environ. My question is if all of the yeast and flavoring bacteria take a certain environment and time (sometimes days) how is this transfered to the pre and later the dough. Are we to assume that both the yeast and bacteria grow in the new dough that is usually a different hydration and left 12 to 24 hours at most? Or is the starter just a concentrated "flavoring" (bacteria) that has leavening power (yeast) that does not grow a whole lot after it is introduced to its new environ? If this is the case you could let a starter go until the yeast were weakened but flavor was at its max and then add fresh vigorous starter to the dough at the right time and end up with the best of both worlds? I have not heard of people doing this though. I assume people are looking for a balance somewere in the middle of these extremes. I hope my questions make sense. The short version is it seems like at each stage (pre and dough) your starter gets diluted by flour, water and time, and less and less of its characteristics that you work so long to build survive.
Last, we need to get Floyd to give you a corner of this site. I like the Bill Nye Science Guy rhyme thing so how about Debra Wink Sourdough Shrink? Seriously I think a science technical section would be very cool and you would have my vote for head honcho of said area.
Crumb Bum, I'm sorry it has taken me so long to get back to you. I needed some time to mull it over. Sort of figure out the question behind the questions, because I think the answer starts with fundamentals that hopefully can clear up some of the confusion around sourdough.
You told EHanner that instead of going 1:1:1 with his stock starter he might want to tweak his preferment instead. You cited Lsan. and yeast could be weakened in such a low ph environ.
Please allow me to clarify---what I said was that he might not want to aim for sourness in his starter, because low pH could have a negative effect on the population dynamics. The 1:1:1 ratio is not really the issue, because time and temperature are an equally important part of the equation. You can create sour, or mild with a 1:1:1, or just about any ratio, depending on how often you refresh and at what temperature.
is the starter just a concentrated "flavoring" (bacteria) that has leavening power (yeast) that does not grow a whole lot after it is introduced to its new environ?
Flavoring isn't the bacteria---it's what the bacteria produce. So you won't get flavoring from them if you don't have the bacteria. But they don't have to be multiplying to be metabolizing sugars and producing flavor compounds. They just need to be present in sufficient number.
Initially each stage may be diluted by flour and water, but time allows it to rebuild again.
if all of the yeast and flavoring bacteria take a certain environment and time (sometimes days) how is this transfered to the pre and later the dough. Are we to assume that both the yeast and bacteria grow in the new dough that is usually a different hydration and left 12 to 24 hours at most?
The stock culture (starter, chef, mother, seed, storage leaven---whatever you choose to call it) is for preserving, maintaining and propagating the organisms that give your breads their desired flavoring and leavening. While they produce substances as metabolic by-products that we consider flavorful, exploiting that is not the primary goal at this point. The object here is to keep desireable organisms alive, healthy, and in sufficient numbers to do what we call on them to do for our breads. So the goal should be to cultivate the right kind of environment to foster the desired organism profile. What is best for the organisms isn't always the same thing as what is best for dough. That's an important distinction.
The pre-ferment(s) (first build, second build, etc., levain, starter, sponge, pre-dough...) have two jobs. One is to continue to build a healthy population of organisms with enough collective power to raise and flavor the dough. The other is to start building flavor before the dough is mixed. Using a pre-ferment allows for more variation in the use of hydration, time and temperature as flavor building tools. It also serves to shorten the dough fermentations later, and allow more scheduling flexibility, because part of the flour is already fermented.
The final dough is really the last build or feeding of the sourdough, if you will. At this point, you inoculate the dough with the active cultures that you have cultivated, and infuse the fresh flour with flavor already developed in the pre-ferments. The hydration may be higher or lower, depending on the type of preferment, but there is also an addition of salt. Salt slows organisms, LAB more so than yeast. So do reduced hydration and retarding. Fermentation may be shorter, or slower at this point, depending on the temperature, so all these factors add up to create an environment where reproduction is limited. But whether they multiply or not, they continue consuming sugars and producing effects in the dough. At this point, the organisms are headed for the oven, so it's the end of the line for them, making leavening and final flavor development their main function.
Do you see how the objective shifts from propagation, to flavor and lift as the process proceeds toward completion? Again, what is best for the bread is not necessarily the same thing as what's best for the microorganisms. The fundamental difference that sets the stock culture apart from the other stages is "continuous refreshment." It's the continuous nature that allows natural selection to determine the evolution of the starter. The pre-ferment to dough stages are a relatively short dead-end spur off the continuous loop. The organisms are more fixed, because there won't be enough generations to lose them through natural selection. So we have a temporary opportunity to manipulate them into producing the effects we desire, even if it isn't ideal for them.
If this is the case you could let a starter go until the yeast were weakened but flavor was at its max and then add fresh vigorous starter to the dough at the right time and end up with the best of both worlds? I have not heard of people doing this though.
This is a relatively common practice, but by adding bakers' yeast and fresh flour rather than more starter. I'm not sure how much of the flour you can pre-ferment and still produce good bread. Maybe someone else can comment on that, but I think the notion of "maximum flavor" is problematic. What do you mean by that? The sweet nuttiness unlocked from the flour, or do you mean as sour as you can get it? Not all flavors (and rheological effects) produced by very long fermentation are necessarily good ones. And there's more to flavor than lactic and acetic acids, so maybe it's best to think more in terms of balance and appropriateness. That again, gets back to the type of bread and personal preference.
Thank You for taking the time and effort to not only answer but to really explain the hows and whys. This is really fascinating stuff. I may have a few more questions in the future but I will try to leave you be so you can bake some bread.
Thinking of the Stock culture as a place to make all the organisms happy and healthy so they can produce all of those wonderful flavor compounds is a new way for me to think about it. I always thought I needed to get my starter how I wanted it, and try to transfer that to the final dough. I probably have done my culture and therefore my final dough disservice by doing this.
I think you also make a case for keeping just one starter. It would seem to me that if it is healthy it would not really matter if it was kept at 100% or 60%, the organisms we want would be there and would do their thing in the preferment. Or would certain organisms not be present in starters of different hydrations therefore not be around to produce certain flavors? You can see my promise of no more Questions lasted exactly 3 paragraphs.
The x factor in all this that you also keep mentioning is time and temp. I think this is the area I will focus on because I know I have a healthy starter. I will try to post some of my results and keep you up on my meglamaniac like quest to control my yeast (once it hits the preferment).
I think if I were to have the ability to control all of "this wild yeast stuff" and turn out cookie cutter bread everytime I would get bored with it. The fact I cant control all of it, just some of it, and there is all of this "life and death struggle, natural selection, etc" going on in a mix of flour and water keeps my head in the game. I have baked for quite a few years now and I am more excited now than I was when I first started this whole process. A big part of my renewed interest are your postings, The 2 pineapple articles and the one before that explaining the whole thing. This stuff is gold.
And thank you for the compliment. It seems I forgot to come back here and answer this. Forgive me, I've had taxes on my agenda. Can't wait until they are done for another year.
I think you also make a case for keeping just one starter. It would seem to me that if it is healthy it would not really matter if it was kept at 100% or 60%, the organisms we want would be there and would do their thing in the preferment. Or would certain organisms not be present in starters of different hydrations therefore not be around to produce certain flavors?
This has more of an effect on the relative numbers of LAB in proportion to yeast. Hydration is one of those things that influences relative growth rates. Lower hydration slows LAB more than yeast, so if you like milder breads and want to control LAB growth, try keeping your starter firm. If you like more sour, then let them go to town by keeping your starter 100% or more. I think Hamelman's liquid starter in Bread is 120%. Try it both ways and see which you prefer.
I thank you for filling in a great many of the blank spaces concerning the behaviour of the sourdough starter metabolism. Also, I congratulate you on snapping together so many of the missing blocks in a manner that can be well understood by a wide audience (this, by itself, is no small feat).
Your mention of wild yeast spore development was, for me, a most important missing element. For some reason I had always assumed the yeast cells were somehow magically "there and ready to go" through asexual reproduction. What is fascinating is the sporing mechanism and its ability to "lie in wait" for the right conditions. The fact that haploid spores mate (reconjugate) in sexual reproduction suggests that a new wild-yeast organism might, in fact, evolve each time a "from the beginning" starter is made. I am left wondering whether this results in a higher degree of diversity for the wild-yeast or whether the chromosones are relativley "guard banded" against this?
I had always assumed the yeast cells were somehow magically "there and ready to go"
I think we all did---'cause that's what cookbooks tell us.
My contact at Lallemand told me, "spores are not the only dormant form." He didn't elaborate, but he also didn't know in what form they are present in flour---spores (haploid), or some other diploid dormant form. I suspect spores, but I also don't know what prompts yeast to sporulate in the wild. I have gotten away from calling them spores, because technically speaking, I just don't know. Either way, they are desiccated and dormant. Non-sporing organisms also have the ability to go dormant, which allows them to survive in nature. The mechanisms of dormancy still aren't all that well understood.
Spore-forming bacteria such as Bacillus and Clostridium, form spores differently than yeast. they're not haploid, or part of a sexual reproductive cycle. The quote I pulled encompasses all spores in a general way, but it was because low pH is sited as a common activator that it caught my attention. That's the one thing that was consistant with the appearance of yeast in my studies. Whether it took 3 days or 3 weeks for the pH to drop, that's when yeast started to grow. And the one time I acidified the day one mix to 3.5 with citric acid, I had yeast growing on day 2.
Fermented beverages and foods have played a significant role in most societies worldwide for millennia. To better understand how the yeast species Saccharomyces cerevisiae, the main fermenting agent, evolved along this historical and expansion process, we analysed the genetic diversity among 651 strains from 56 different geographical origins, worldwide. Their genotyping at 12 microsatellite loci revealed 575 distinct genotypes organized in subgroups of yeast types, i.e. bread, beer, wine, sake. Some of these groups presented unexpected relatedness: Bread strains displayed a combination of alleles intermediate between beer and wine strains, and strains used for rice wine and sake were most closely related to beer and bread strains. However, up to 28% of genetic diversity between these technological groups was associated with geographical differences which suggests local domestications. Focusing on wine yeasts, a group of Lebanese strains were basal in an FST tree, suggesting a Mesopotamia-based origin of most wine strains. In Europe, migration of wine strains occurred through the Danube Valley, and around the Mediterranean Sea. An approximate Bayesian computation approach suggested a postglacial divergence (most probable period 10 000-12 000 bp). As our results suggest intimate association between man and wine yeast across centuries, we hypothesize that yeast followed man and vine migrations as a commensal member of grapevine flora.
I'm very interested in what you wrote about the appearence of LAB Sanfrancincensis: that generally it appears after 2 weeks of daily refreshments at room temperature.
Can I exchange the word "day" with "refreshment"? I mean, if I refresh twice a day at room temperature can I expect that that LAB strain will appear sooner, after 6-7 days? Is it a matter of generations or does it take a longer time?
I'm testing the apple cider on a rye starter, but in the last days I made a white wheat starter with 3 gr of white vinegar dissolved in 47 gr of water and mixed with 50 gr of WW flour. The PH read was 4.6. After 2 days the starter rose and now it seems to be *very* vigorous. When the starter collapses the PH generally drops to 3.8. I hope it's not too low.
FIG. 2. Effect of pH on L. sanfranciscensis LTH2581 ( ) and LTH1729 ( ) and C. milleri LTH H198 ( ) (A) and effect of NaCl addition expressed as ionic strength on the growth of L. sanfranciscensis LTH2581 and C. milleri LTH H198 (B). The lines represent the predicted growth rates. Error bars indicate the standard deviations from the means of three independent experiments. The shaded areas represent the ranges commonly encountered during sourdough fermentations.
As a scientist and amateur baker, I really appreciated your posting. Thank you!
I am curious if you realise how your interesting and well written article is affecting the mindset of some of the sourdough community. Apparently there are some home bakers out there that are now under the impression that this is more than an observation of what naturally occurs in a new culture medium and how one may alter it while eventually reaching the same desired result, but they have somehow elevated your method to a now neccessary step in creating a sourdough starter. Once again the power of the internet is imeasurable.
By the way, I understand that you recently had the opportunity to bake with Mr. Hamelman, and I was wondering if he had commented on your pineapple juice method.
Every once in awhile, I google to see what people are saying, and have come across a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding out there about it. That is one of the reasons I wrote the article. Unfortunately, I can't help people's misinterpretation of it. You'll never hear me say that pineapple juice is necessary in creating a starter---only patience.
But without the internet, the pineapple juice fix would never have been conceived in the first place, and I would not have been able to do the research or have the benefit of feedback, or even to be here on TFL today. So, I guess I can live with the downside. And I do believe there are a lot more proud sourdough parents as a result.
I don't know if I would call it a down side at all, your article explains itself very well on it's own, and I don't understand why it can be so misunderstood. If anything, it is probably proof that your method has worked incredibly well for these people. As for the power of the internet, without it, I probably would never have gotten into sourdough bread baking in the first place (gasp).
Hey, if your method keeps people from tossing out innocent and potentially good starter, then that makes you the sourdough angel of mercy!
now raising my glass of pineapple juice... Here's to the internet!
That is kind of deja vu-ish, because someone sent me some sourdough culture from San Fran one time and after using it I didn't like it either, I remember the resulting bread had a not very appealing sort of cheezy taste to it, and I couldnt imagine what the big attraction of genuine "SAN FRANSISCO" sourdough bread was. That was so long ago now that I cant remember what I did with that culture, but I don't miss it.
So sorry I missed this a while back; I've been on a break of sorts this summer.
1. Should I feed it again tonight before bed since it has doubled. If I dont feed should I just stir it.
Since this is my first really advancement with either of the 2 starters I have (The first smells good but wont rise) I dont want to make a mistake and undo 10 days of work.
Mike, it's good to hear your starter has taken off. I'm sorry, I didn't see this last night, but you're okay either way. You could have fed it, but if you didn't, it will still be fine. The warmer temperature certainly could have made it rise faster, but at day 5, it may have just been ready regardless of the temp. Anything over 85ºF continuously, is not good for the wild yeast, and may cost you leavening power in the long run. But 70º is fine, and the yeast will still do quite well. So room temperature is preferable to uncontrolled heat now that your starter is expanding.
You can feed it more frequently now. Let it show you what it needs. Allow it to rise as high as it will (without stirring), and feed before it collapses too much. Two or three times a day is best. You can increase the refreshment (or decrease the ripe starter) until you find a feeding rate that works with your schedule.
Once you're sure you have a viable starter, there isn't any need to keep both unless you just want to. If it hasn't started rising after 10 days, I'm guessing the first one is either on a diet of only white flour at this point, or is getting fed too much or too often. It will work eventually, but no telling how long it will take. In my experience, usually 14+ days, but you can help things along by switching to whole wheat or whole rye until it starts expanding.
How do they look today?
The Pineapple one looked like it double again after a vigorous stir last night deflated it. I was doing some reading and I am not sure of the direction I should be going.
Should I be using a 1:1:1 or a 2:1:1 feeding ratio. One of the things I want to learn from this is what ratio should I be using now that it is doubling. Is there a reason one works better or worse then the other. My understanding is the 1:1:1 provides more food for the starter so it should be more frothy and more then double.
The other question is that I start with 1/4 of a cup of room temperature water and then measure out the same weight in flour. I then either measure out the same weight in starter (Or double) and wash out my container. Most of the videos done seem to do that but how do I get rid of all the excess starter in the container?
"One of the things I want to learn from this is what ratio should I be using now that it is doubling. Is there a reason one works better or worse then the other."
Now that your starter is expanding, you're finished with creating the seed culture, and now you're moving on to maintaining it which is a different strategy. There are times when a 2:1:1 ratio (2x dilution factor) can benefit, but for the most part, 1:1:1 (3x) is the minimum, and 1:2:2 (5x) or more may be even better. It depends on how your starter is performing, and when the next feeding will be. How often can/will you feed it, realistically?
Let it show you what it needs. Allow it to rise as high as it will (without stirring), and feed before it collapses too much. Two or three times a day is best. You can increase the refreshment (or decrease the ripe starter) until you find a feeding rate that works with your schedule.
What I mean by this is that it's best to take your cues from the starter. Start with 1:1:1, and if/when it peaks and falls before it's time to feed again, either feed it sooner, or move to a 1:2:2 ratio. If/when that starts to peak and fall before the next feed, you can increase to 1:3:3 and so on until you find the right ratio for your feeding schedule. It's likely that you'll find when you keep it active this way, it will get more robust (rise higher, faster), and more fragrant, especially over the next two weeks or so. That's about how long it will take to fully transition and find its equilibrium.
Where you will eventually settle in, will depend on the room temperature, your culture, and how often you feed it---not necessarily the same routine as someone else. For mine, I like 1:1:1 every 8 hours. If I'm trying to flush out acidity and maximize leavening power, I may feed 2:1:1 every four hours or so (if I can) for a day. On the days I can only make two feedings, I'll do a larger refreshment. Smaller feeds more frequently will produce a milder starter (the way I like it). Larger feeds less frequently help build more potential for sour. But, it's important to keep leavening strong either way, which is why it's best not to let it collapse too much. The starter will give you signs, and this will all make more sense as you interact with it.
Hope that helps. I know the more you read, the more confusing it can get. There is no one right way, so don't worry about getting it wrong. This is one of those things you learn best by doing. Note that the above ratios are all 100% hydration, which is what your starter is currently. And that's probably best for now, because the math is more straightforward.
"how do I get rid of all the excess starter in the container?"
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking---how to get it out of the container? Or how to dispose of the unused portion?
One final suggestion is that since you will be going through a lot of flour at your present rate, you may want to cut all amounts by half.
When I first started out and followed your PJ instructions, moving on and understanding starter maintenance was very puzzling for me, I couldn't find anything on this site that gave me an overview of maintenance. Now my starter has been going for more than a year and has made a wide range of delicious bread. I have learned what feeding schedule suits my conditions (adjusting it through 4 seasons in a home without central heating/cooling) and my baking schedule etc. Of course I now understand why there is such a myriad of maintenance methods used by TFLers, with all the variables each of our starters are subject to. Nevertheless I wish this post had been available to me back then.:) :)!!
So many newcomers are advised to read PJ-1 & PJ-2, so I wonder if you would be willing to cut and paste a copy of the main portion of this valuable post as an edit to the OP on this thread.
Thank you so much for conveying reliable information to us in a manner that is easy to understand.
Yep, I think I need to pull it all together, but maybe in a separate blog or forum entry with a link to it. This all ties in with the population dynamics on the very liquid thread. And now that the growing season is coming to a close, I'll be able to turn my attention back to that. But for now, it looks like I may have to go into crisis mode, so I will likely be scarce for the next few weeks.


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