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ProSportsDaily.com > Basketball > NBA > So is Kevin Love staying in Cleveland now?
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Quinnsanity
It seemed like a lock that Love was gone, but he just had a great Game 7 (Cavs were +19 when he was on the floor, his defense was much improved, incredible rebounding etc...), so do they keep him? Hard to trade such a major part of a champion, especially when they need his scoring in the regular season to keep LeBron rested for the Finals.
It seems pretty obvious that Kevin Love needs to be traded. What teams out there want Love and what can the Cavs expect to get back. What is your best trade scenario for the Cavs this offseason?
Vinny642
U might get that one dumb GM that screams STATSSSS OMG and trades for him
LOb0
Well the best case would be getting another primary scorer. LeBron still loves being the facilitator more so than a scorer. He just gets forced into it. I really think they would be great getting Melo.
Outside of that? They could get a huge haul from Boston with a Nets pick (tradable asset) and quality role players, like Avery Bradley who is the best defender in the league for Steph Curry. They have tons of options to improve the team.
More-Than-Most
they could become so much better without him so i hope not.... They need to forget a big 3 ******** and just trade him for a good 2 way player. You cant have his defense and irvings defense on the same team in the same starting line up and hope to continue to beat the warriors/raptors/heat/pacers/celtics/spurs/thunder.... Lebron wont always be a god and they really need to prepare for his decline.
LMAO Boston isnt gonna trade picks for Love. Love will not net a huge haul anywhere
Oh yes we will. Anyone on the roster and a nets pick is on the table.
I agree with the sentiment that they should forget the big 3 nonsense, but no, they do not get better without him. He's routinely had among the highest plus/minus for the Cavs in this series (and did today at +19), and during the regular season they had a +8.1 net rating with him on the floor and only +1.9 without him. Compare that to Kyrie, the Cavs were actually better with him off the floor (+5.9) than on it (+5.7), and there's plenty more evidence to suggest that that he's the one they're better without, but they can't trade him now for PR reasons. So yea, fine with the idea of trading him and they could build a team that makes more sense for LeBron, but no, the Cavs are not better without him.
i don't think hes getting traded after winning a chip with him, especially since he stepped up his defense past few games.
Trade him for 2 other useful role players. Them winning doesnt erase the fact that he doesnt fit whatsoever. Their big three in Kyrie-Bron-Thompson.
LaLa_Land
I bet Cleveland brass will talk him up, make him out to be a fantastic piece moving forward, and that they will not trade him under any circumstances.
Then he'll be traded.
He won't garner anything near what Cleveland gave up to acquire him. Which stinks for Cleveland, simply because he turned out to be a poor fit within their starting lineup. He put in a good game on the glass in game 7, but man oh man was he awful during the series. On par with Harrison Barnes with regards to "being exposed".
I can imagine a three team trade where Carmelo lands in Cleveland, the Knicks acquire youth/picks, and the third team bites on Love.
But hey, this guy has a ring. A big fat championship ring.
CHANGO
If they want to contest for another title next season, they better trade his *** with one ring now before it's too late.
Give that team an athletic PF/C or PF/SF role player and a SG/SF shooter/defender and you are good to go.
As I said on another thread.
IF they can get a 2 for 1 deal with an athletic PF/SF role player and a SG/SF defensive shooter they are good to go.
I think Delly is a free agent so a PG/SG defensive shooter should be better.
As the Celtics unofficial GM Im offering Jay Crowder a nets pick and Avery Bradley. Deal?
hotdalton18
Trade love to Boston for Bradley , Olynic and the 3rd pick
Works for both teams
FlashBolt
I hate to say it because it looked awesome seeing K.Love win after all the trash they threw at him but he doesn't fit with this team. I don't know how much more heavy lifting James and Kyrie could have done. He played great in game 7 compared to the others but still.. the saying "if it works, don't fix it" is true and quite frankly, Kevin Love doesn't work on this team. Both parties (K.Love and Cleveland) can do much better on their own.
Talk with Vee-Rex to see if he pulls the trigger. I'm not into contracts but Crowder and Bradley for Love is too good to pass. (You ****ed me with the contracts maybe) LOL
But yes, that's a perfect trade IMO, that's what they need, young defensive/athletic pieces who can also shoot the 3.
Why would Cavs want Crowder and Bradley? Two unproven players, sorry. You can get much more for K.Love. I like the defensive ability of those players but you can easily get someone like Milsap for him.
Bradley is perhaps the best defensive guard in the league. And the best defensive match up for Curry in the league. Crowder is just a solid 3 that hits 3s and plays defense.
Confusious
Not getting moved.
Where do they play Bradley? They have Shump and Irving. Possibly a resign with J.R. and Delly. I'm not saying Bradley/Crowder aren't good for this team but think about what they can get for Love. It's much more valuable than Bradley/Crowder.
plus/minus is the worst stat you can ever go by... His defense is god awful period. He doesnt fit with them... They are 100 percent better without him
Im going to assume Curry is going to be bloodlusted after this. I would much rather have Bradley than Shump for this next season. Also you're forgetting the Nets pick which will likely be top 3.(If they want a future one and not the current one) Highly tradable asset they can get another player for.
Im going to assume Curry is going to be bloodlusted after this. I would much rather have Bradley than Shump for this next season. Also you're forgetting the Nets pick which will likely be top 3. Highly tradable asset they can get another player for.
Will be difficult for Cavs to get rid of Shump. He was just signed to what I will now admit is an overpaid contract. Many open shots were missed the entire playoffs. Great defense but he needs to work on his shooting. I don't know what Cavs will do with Love but I've been saying all season that LeBron needs to play a Magic-like role for this team for the years to come. He can't be depended on scoring at age 32 when he is a bad shooter and not getting any more athletic.
+/- is stupid. Draymond was the best player on the court tonight and he had a -1 +/- while Speights had a +5 or something. It's too difficult to judge what occurred at that span. K.Love was probably in the game when the Cavs just had a good run making shots or maybe Draymond wasn't defending him, etc. Just way too many variables to decide from.
Agreed. I'm not sure how he willed back his jump shot for games 5 and 6 but they can't rely on that. He lost it again in game 7. He was really struggling to score. They need another primary offensive weapon. Problem is there isn't many of those out there. They should look for that before anything.
DODGERS&LAKERS
For a one game sample size its dumb to use plus/minus. But its telling for a years worth of input
They played Love against 2nd tier units and mostly when Curry/Dray/Klay were benched. I'm not saying it doesn't hold any value but I think the bigger issue is just realizing a player doesn't work for a particular team. There's nothing wrong with that. Love has the chip and won't be scrutinized for it. Cavs have an obligation to come back better for next season and years to come. If both parties part way, they should do it now. Love has nothing to prove in terms of rings. Right now, his career should be focused on making himself a superstar again.
I think Love's value has diminished in Cleveland. So Bradley/Crowder sounds fair.
Comparing Bradley and Shump is crazy, Shump in this Finals was bad, he can't even shoot. Bradley is a better shooter and much better defender.
What I'm saying is that Cavs have Shump/Irving and most likely, a resigning of Smith/Delly. I don't think guard play is their issue. Frontcourt on the other hand needs huge work. As of now, their only performing frontcourt player was TT. Love, Mosgov, Channing, RJ, and Kaun are either: 1) Retiring 2) Not good enough.
I wouldn't mind seeing Bron hit the PF position like he did for Miami either but to say Love's value has diminished to the point where he's only worth Crowder/Bradley? Idk about that. I think many teams realize Love just doesn't fit for the Cavs. He's still a top 15 player, no doubt. But his status comes when he's the 1st/2nd option on a team. Him being a 3rd option will never fulfill his potential with the way he plays.
Milsap is a good name. He will fit in a hell lot better in this cavs team than Love did, at both ends.
The logical thing for the Cavs to do would be trade Love. If they can potentially get back 2-3 quality players, with one of them being a quality starter they are set.
There is a very good chance JR Smith leaves Cleveland, he's planning to opt out and look for the big money. The Cavs although they won the finals, showed throughout the series the bench is weak. If they could get a replacement PF for Love and 2 other high quality bench players, they would be even deeper and better position for next season.
Idk if Smith will leave if Cavs can give him a reasonable offer but best of luck to him. His postgame speech was nothing short of pure joy.
TylerSL
Yes because it won't be worth it for Cleveland to trade him. There is no way they would get significant return in a trade because he still has 3 years and $68 million left on his contract and a team option for $25.5 million in 2019 that Cleveland would be fools to pick up. Even with the rising salary the only kinds of teams that would be interested in bringing him on would be other contending teams, and they would want to trade future picks. Wouldn't really help Lebron/Cleveland who are trying to win now. The only way Love gets traded is if Lebron leaves again.
Milsap+Korver+picks for Love sounds fair.
Nick O
honestly. hes got his ring and isnt really liked there. might as well go someplace ****** again and wrack up double doubles
Heediot
To Boston Kevin Love and Mo
To Cleveland Crowder, Amir, Sullinger
Kyrie, JR, Crowder, LBJ, Thompson
Delly, Shump, RJ, Sullinger, Amir, Frye
They have the option of starting Sullinger/Amir for offense/defense against specific match-ups to give LBJ a break from playing PF too much.
Trade gives the team much more versatility.
da ThRONe
At this point it appears safe to say a trade shipping Love out of Cleveland is best for all parties involved. I can see a scenario where if the Celtics are willing to trade away the two picks they got from Brooklyn that Love could turn into Boogie Cousins. The Kings are in a bad place. The 3rd pick this year, Brooklyn's 2017 pick, and some combination of Smart, Shumpert, Thompson, Young, Bradley, Olynyk, may be enough to part with Cousins. The Celtics by all reports seems more focused on winning now. I could see them targeting Gordon Hayward at some point during the season or off season. The Cavs has the leadership with LeBron to handle Demarcus. Boogie is likely to be everything they thought they were getting from Love.
No offense but i don't get this opinion. the Cavs have shown they can be a very good defensive team with both guys on the floor.
i think he is gone
Tony_Starks
Nope. Still gone.
He indicted himself with his play in game 7. He went out there and straight up hustled on the boards all night. Regardless of if he was getting shots or not.
He should've been doing that the whole series, that was supposed to be a staple of his game.
He's too mentally weak.
KnicksorBust
He had a lot of good games for the Cavs this year. This was a bad matchup for him. Its funny bc TTs contract looked terrible all season but he earned his money in the finals.
AllBall
He's a gonner. He got his ring, they owe him nothing. He played well, but he's dispensable to that team, so he's a trade asset.
Yanks All Day
I think people have short term memories. They see the NBA Finals and hate on Kevin Love. It's not that he's a bad fit for Cleveland. He's a bad matchup against Golden State. That's really about it. Otherwise, he had a really good 2nd half of the season and it carried over into the playoffs. The Warriors just happen to be a bad matchup for Love. If they played San Antonio, he's probably a bad matchup for LaMarcus Aldridge. If it was OKC, he's on par with Ibaka. The problem with Golden State is that he has to matchup with a much smaller opponent or Draymond Green and it doesn't work.
Cleveland can't get equal value in return. Unless someone comes with an offer than breaks the bank, there's no reason to deal him. They'd spend the next 5 years in the Finals anyway with LeBron-Kyrie-Love-Thompson and various role players. If I'm the Cavs, I work on finding a suitable backup PG for Kyrie, another swingman like Jefferson, and maybe a rim protector, though not as necessary. Otherwise, Cavs just need to fill the court with shooters. None of those situations call for trading Love. It's easy to be reactionary to the last 7 games, but he's not as bad as people want to think.
rhymeratic
Man listen, I'd be on the phone RIGHT now with Sacremento telling them how much better they would become by trading Kevin Love for DeMarcus Cousins.
To me that's the trade that needs to happen.
He just doesn't fit in the team, he is out of place and that leads to him playing bad. Love shot 38.5% in the playoffs and he is just bad defensively, he is too slow for this team. They need an athletic guy to keep up with the rest and also protect the rim. Cousins or even Howard (LeBron can bring the best out of Howard, he can change him) are those guys.
I'm not sure if LeBron can get Cousins to stop acting like a child. Cousins is also a stat-stuffer like Love. I'll take him on my team but I'm not really sure he's what they need. It's easy to say, 26/12, wow! Good! But he's a high USG%/volume scorer just like Love was back in Minny. Didn't work out well. Cousins is a better post player but Cavs need spacing since Thompson can't shoot. They need a three/D guy who has length and ability to block shots or have some defensive presence.
Hawkeye15
They absolutely should shop him. You don't pay a guy what he makes to stand in the corner, get some rebounds, and occasionally walk around like he lost his puppy.
They should shop him.
The moment he kept looking for LeBron's approval, I knew it wasn't going to work. LeBron has a huge ego and he's also got a great feel for the game. What Kyrie did is what he expected Love to do. Love actually played great in game 7 but this entire playoffs, he's been below average by his standards. Everyone stepped up in this series but Kevin Love. That's a problem. I don't know how much LeBron and Kyrie can do for future seasons but their window is closing on trading Love if it doesn't happen this season.
I absolutely agree that Love isn't the best fit on that team. But I wouldn't necessarily assume they're going to get better by trading him either. He was a big piece for Cleveland all season long and had a couple of really solid postseason series against Detroit and Toronto. He stepped up pretty big in Games 5 and 6 after the Raptors tied up the series.
I think Cleveland should definitely shop him, but there's no reason for a fire sale. They should only trade him if they're certain they're going to get pieces that will make them a better basketball team and will have a long-term impact on the roster.
exactly, easiest way to put it.
I'd take that deal in a heart beat. Flip the nets pick for a solid pf if possible and they are good to go.
In my personal opinion they aren't getting too much more then Crowder, Sullinger, Amir package. That's just reality, his stock has dropped hard.
They would be lucky if they are going to be getting that type of offer.
Everyone knows he was still a 16ppg/10rpg big man who hit 36% of this threes right? Don't trade him. Just keep him and win b2b titles.
ZHawk1123
You clearly haven't seen the Celtics play much. Bradley is much better than Shump or J.R.
Averaged 15 a game this season, shot the 3 well and was first team all-defense.
I haven't but I know Bradley/Crowder are great defenders. My point is that it will be tough to fit Bradley in when they have Shump and a few other guards. They could use more work improving their depleted frontcourt since TT was the only valuable frontcourt player in the Finals. Again, what do you do with the players you have NOW? Shump just signed a contract.
And a 15/9 in the playoffs shooting 39%, plays minimal defense. Not good offensively/defensively. Sucked even worse in the NBA Finals. Sorry, he sucked. If Cavs want to win for many years, they need to do something about Love.
JasonJohnHorn
He had some rough patches, but I have to say that his defense was huge at points. I was really impressed with his defensive improvements in the post season.
I get it now. I don't know Cavs situation in terms of free agent that's why I say that. But I heard earlier in the season they were going to let Delly walk so that's why I said a PG/SG combo. If they resign Delly and JR (I think JR is a lock) they don't need any PG/SG, so the focus would be a PF/C, PF/SF. Just give them another Tristan Thompson with shooting and that puts them over the top.
Love wasn't great defensively, just because he contained Curry (or Curry contained himself) doesn't mean he was good defensively. His slow *** got the Cavs in trouble everytime he switched on a splash brother or tried to go back to his man. He is a liability.
People saying that Love is just a problem against the Warriors are crazy, against any other team with a quick good shooting PG they are in trouble. Put him in the P&R and you'll have a party with him defending. I expect the W's to go back to the NBA Finals and if Kevin Durant don't do anything crazy and go to the East, I expect the Cavs to do the same.
He was already exposed against the Raptors.
mrblisterdundee
Kevin Love's the David Lee of the Cavaliers. He got a championship. Now let him go.
D-Leethal
I think they won because they have so much talent - but the talent on that squad is awkward in a lot of spots. They have Kyrie at PG - do they really need a volume 3 point shooting SG? They would be much better off with an efficient 3 & D guy in the mold of a Danny Green. They would be better off with an defensive forward who has some range in Love's spot - someone like Ibaka.
I think they really need to get some versatile two way guys on that squad. LeBron isn't going full blown superman mode every time and without him and Kyrie wearing capes they don't win this series. They need to build a team that can win without that type of all time great effort. Don't think this current roster is set up for them to do that.
It's crazy but I'm torn on the issue. My brain tells me that trading Love is the best move - we could fill out our roster for sure. I'd love to get Millsap + Korver (if that was possible).
Avery Bradley + Crowder is intriguing as well (though I'd rather have Millsap), but as Flash said it kind of gives us some redundancy. If I ship out Love, I want a big man in return.
However, my heart doesn't want to trade him just because we're fresh off a championship win. It just feels wrong to ship him out right after the win.
Oh well. I have faith in David Griffin, and if he makes a move then I'm behind it all the way.
Kyrie plays like a SG but he has ballhandling skills suitable for a PG. It helps a lot that he brings the ball up more often and attracts the attention instead of LeBron. Easily gives LeBron rest time. Danny Green would be insane on this team. He's a much better version of J.R..
Amazing GM the past two years. You guys are lucky to have him.. Would trade Presti for his *** any day.
Id trade love for Blake straight up. I think he'd fit well on this team. I may take cousins straight up. After that it would have to be a nice package
You realize the GM, coach and captain of the Cavs is Lebron, right?
DboneG
They just won a title with Love. You keep him...or try. He's BMW rims on a Chevy! The bolt pattern don't line up...but, you can make it work! And it looks good! How you think we got dubs today? Guys were using bigger rims that didn't fit their car.
Mopar engine in a chevy. Somebody said that wouldn't work. (But, it's kick *****!)
In that case, I hope OKC trades everything for that Gm/Coach/Captain/Player!
They barely won with Love, though. They can be much better. That's the goal for the Cleveland Cavailers and for any other team. You can't depend on these emotional and locker room issues with cryptic tweets for another season. If they can get better, they should look to do so. If it ain't broken, why fix it? Well, because it is broken. Cleveland just happened to have the two best players of the series on their team.
I think Sac is looking at a complete rebuild. Good thing for them Boston has the assets to hell expedite a rebuild. And Boston would love to have Love.
To the Nuggets for Kenneth Faried, Will Barton, pick 15, and pick 19 ?
Horrible trade tbh. I love Faried's motor but Cleveland already has one in TT. Will Barton is good but not a piece they need. Can't have both Faried/TT on the court with zero spacing. Not gonna look good for the Cavs. Neither player can score at all.
B'sCeltsPatsSox
I don't think they'll trade him and I still think he's a fine fit with the Cavs. I think the Warriors were an awful matchup for him.
He's kinda sucked the entire playoffs.
They will give Love another year to prove his worth and fit with the team. If things unravel in the playoffs next year and they fail to make it to the finals at least, he will be traded/scapegoat.
Vs. Detroit he averaged 19 and 12 shooting 39 percent from 3.
Against Atlanta he averaged 19 and 13 shooting 47.5 percent from 3.
Against Toronto he was 15 and 6 shooting 45 percent from 3 and a 64 TS%
I would keep Kevin Love, and try to shore up the bench. The core players just won a championship.
UFA's. If the Cavs could pick up 2 to 4 of these guys the bench will be in great shape.
Wesley Johnson
Kirk Hinrich
Brandon Bass
DJ Augustin
A young guy in the draft
Romo2Bryant
I see them going after Jared Dudley or Tayshaun Prince to replace, Richard Jefferson (retiring). Not much of an upgrade, but they do provide some leadership.
Kevin Love played great in game 7. But he may have to accept the role as the scapegoat it seems. Much like Pau Gasol in LA and Chris Bosh in Miami.
Oakmont_4
The Celtics would never offer that. The most I can see the C's offering up is Bradley, Jerebko and Olynyk and it probably gets denied by Cleveland. And we walk away from the table.
#3 and/or any nets picks...Not happening for Love. Those are for a true Franchise Player
chitownredbulls
Love for Gay.......
It was still put out there like 2 weeks ago that the Celtics would still offer the 3rd pick and a starter if Love was on the market. I'm not saying I agree with doing that trade, but that's what's been reported.
Thats interesting. How about Faried, Galla, Barton
Hopefully they don't wait that long. And thankfully, Lebron has been doing this for a while and probably knows what needs to happen and it will. In this case I am glad Lebron is in the drivers seat because what ever he wants to happen will happen fast.
I think Lebron will have Love traded. I am really hoping for Blake Griffin. I think both teams would look into doing this and I think it makes both teams better. Griffin is a great team player. He can create and pass better than Love and he can do it off the dribble. He would make players around him better in the right offense and I like what I saw from Lue and I think the Cavs offense will suite him well.
kobe4thewinbang
Kevin Love should be a Celtic. He can be 'the man' now that Pierce is gone and the only to challenge him is Isaiah Thomas 2.0. I've always pictured him as a Celtic and I think he'd be better used there.
He could bang down low again, consume rebounds, show the touch from deep when needed.
Yes, his defense is suspect but he did guard Curry with the game on the line and look who won.
I definitely don't think Cleveland is getting the most value out of him on the court. He has a big contract.
Maybe Celtics snag Al Horford or maybe Dwight (who knows?) to make up for Love's defense. Or Ezeli/Biyombo?
His defense on curry was flat out as important as kyries 3 and lebrons dunk... It was amazing and he deserves his ring for that along.... The dude came to play in game 7.... There are 2 people that should feel ashamed... JR Smith for allowing curry to block his shot and curry for allowing Love to D him up in that situation.
NBA offseasons are so interesting. I'm really expecting Love to be traded. At one point I was hoping they would make a trade for 3 solid pieces, but I think they can probably pick up some free agents to fill in. Now I want them to just go get Blake Griffin.
chaell
They absolutely should shop him. You don't pay a guy what he makes to stand in the corner, get some rebounds, and occasionally walk around like he lost his puppy.http://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/6.gif
http://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/4.gif http://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/12.gif
Man, Blake Griffin would be the best option after Anthony Davis.. Kyrie/JR running the fastbreak with BG/LJ on the left/right getting ready for the lob? Oh lord.. It would be Lob City on steroids. Blake is also a great passer for his position and is accurate on cuts. Would be easy bucket opportunities for LeBron. Clippers could also use Love. Put him as the second option with DJ defending, you give Love more leverage to be the player he was at Minny. I like that trade for both teams tbh.
If I'm the Clippers Love isn't enough to get Griffin. He's a far superior talent to Love. Hell he's significantly better than Davis. Blake has been very underrated lately. He's a guy you can run the offense through solid defender out the post, improved jumper, plus can handle and facilitate like a guard. The only question with Griffin is health and those concerns exist with Davis.
FraziersKnicks
If I'm the Cavs, there are only two trades I do to improve the team.
Kevin Love for Paul Millsap and Kyle Korver.
Kevin Love for Avery Bradley, Jared Sullinger and Jae Crowder.
That second one is a bit steep and I'm not sure how I would feel about an undersized Sullinger/Thompson front court but the defense would be so improved with Bradley and Crowder on the wings.
Love for Millsap and Korver would be absolutely perfect. Millsap is the perfect replacement. Great defender, passer, rebounder and shooter. Korver would be great as a gunner off the bench.
Other than that, I would hold on to Love. You've just won an NBA title. You don't need to go and do anything silly for the sake of it.
So if Paul George or Boogie Cousins is available you say no?
I love it for Cleveland and I think both teams are better for it. Kyrie gets to shoot more 3's. I think Bron and Blake will work so well together. They will be giving each other oops every game. And Blake is better made to carry the load than Love when Bron and or Kyrie isn't in the game.
As a clippers fan, offensively Love is a better fit, but defensively and overall I would still keep Blake. Cavs would have to throw in more pieces to make it enticing enough. If they can get s three way with the C's to add Jae Crowder to the Clippers I would take that deal. Kevin love defense is pretty scary, although he had his small moments of glory in the finals.
dnl123
Cavs don't have nearly enough to offer get either of those guys.
I love Blake, but I take AD all day over Blake. Also Clippers were better without Blake last year, and just based on fit, they would probably be a better team with Love.
I'll take Millsap and Teague for love, but I can't stand Korver. He's a liability on defense, he won't even be able to play against the warriors in the finals
I say no to Boogie. As talented as he is, he's a ****ing head case who puts up a lot of empty numbers on a crap team. You think he's gonna be happy with 12 shots a game? Hell no. He'll take that even worse than Love.
PG would be an interesting one but absolutely no chance Pacers would offer that. He would also have to make the permanent transition to the 4 (or Bron would). Once again though, sharing shots will be tough. That's why trading Love for some guys that don't need 15-18 shots a game is the best way.
Look at the Warriors. They've got Curry and Klay who take all the shots and everyone else just has what's left. Green/Iggy/Bogut/Barnes/Livingston are all plus defenders who don't need a lot go shots a game.
Build around two guys that are your main scorers with a bunch of unselfish, strong defensive guys that can shoot.
Love's value isn't high. There's no way we could pull a Davis or Griffin IMO.
I think K Love could fetch either. They know his stats as 3rd wheel are a bit deflated
When Paul was injured the year before. Clippers did very good as well. Blake had MVP considerations that year.
Oh yeah, I don't mean to take anything from Blake. I love Blake. I feel because Paul handles the ball so much that many of Blake's abilities are not being used. Blake is awesome. I just rate AD higher.
With all the Drama Blake has had last year with beating up the ball boy, breaking his hand, and the Clippers being better without him, I think there is an average chance the Cavs could get that deal done with Blake.
I agree no chance for AD
I can agree with AD being a better player. But I don't think Love can get you Blake straight up.
Your probably right, but I think some type of deal can be worked out between the two of them
We werent "better" without Blake. Cavs dont have enough to get him and I fail to see how Bron and Blake mesh. Their entire frontcourt would be comparised of guys who cant shoot, how do you get lopbs when teams shrink the floor to that degree? Has there ever been a team that won with that kind of setup. Where does Blake get his shots if he has less range than Love and is more ball dominant? At least the defense improves.
eDush
And if they wanted a flopper, they would have kept Varejao :nod:.
Blake's Griffin isn't that high either. Locker room issues, injury, he came back pretty unhealthy, etc. Clippers may be looking for a change. And to say Love's value isn't worthy is pretty unfair. He had to sacrifice a lot to play for this team. My only issue with him the entire season was that he didn't accept it and at times, looked like he played with zero effort. Shooting might be an issue but his upside for this team is tremendous. There will be lots of easy points for them in the paint.
Sportsguy9695
the Cavs need to get rid of love one way or another. the guy was a big damper in the playoffs especially finals despite game 7
If Cavs are better with Richard Jefferson over love, then they will be better with Blake.
And Kyrie JR and Channing are wet from 3 what u talkin bout?
Cavs can get pretty creative with there lineups. Kyrie/JR/Bron/Blake/Tristan will do just fine Chronz
Totally not fair.. RJ was only "better" because GSW was a bad matchup for Love. He doesn't have the quickness or athleticism to compete against Draymond.
But that's the team that matters because that's who they need to beat. I'm sure defensively Blake would be an upgrade against OKC or the Spurs as well
It honestly just sounds like the team that won bronze in the Olympics. The fit would be even more awkward imo, like gimme a single example of a team that got lots of "easy buckets in the paint" when 3 of their 5 players cant space the floor. Show me a single set up in the zone era.
If Bron can get his Miami 3pt shot back, or keep his 2016 NBA finals 3pt shot, then there are plenty of examples of teams with that kind of spacing winning.
Detroit comes to mind. 80's and 2000's
Not to mention that the scoring talent with Lebron, Blake, and Kyrie will be off the hook. And if the Cavs feel they need to get better spacing, then Channing Frye will start and TT can just come off the bench.
Problem solved Chronzy boy.
KingstonHawke
Nope. Swapping him for Melo. Been calling it for months now. Just makes too much sense from both sides. Cavs need a scorer who can compliment Lebron. And the Knicks need a go to guy who wants to be there and can play in the P&R for Lin's return.
And dude, the problem with that bronze metal team wasn't the fit. They actually tried to put 3 point shooters like Mike Miller and Michael Redd on the squad. The problem was those guys sucked. The Cavs will be more talented than they are now.
You think that the Cavs won't make it out the east with there "awkward fit" of a team?
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=zr3k2dg
Cavs get: Paul Millsap, Avery Bradley
Celts get: Kevin Love, Kent Bazemore
Hawks get: Iman Shumpert, Amir Johnson, 3rd overall pick, Cavs 2018 first rounder
Cavs get two fantastic two way players. Celtics get Love and Bazemore is a poor man's Bradley whilst getting out of Amir Johnson's terrible deal. Hawks get the #3 pick and a future first rounder and two solid (if slightly overpaid) role players. Trade Teague for Noel and go full on rebuild mode with Shroeder, Noel, tons of cap space and whoever they pick with #3.
Just throwing ideas around. This trade clearly benefits the Cavs the most but I don't see them doing anything unless they get this kinda offer.
USA Bronze medal didn't work because AI was just there to ballhog. That's the truth.
Love is staying according to my sources. I would have trade him if I can get like around 70% in return value for him. We need to be smart about making moves, not out of emotion but out of Love.
:love:
beasted86
So did you guys not watch 36 year old Richard Jefferson play much more effectively on defense than Love?
Love needs to go. Championship or no championship. He's that bad defensively.
Duh Cavs understand his defense. They signed him for his offense or the offense he left in Minny :pity:
believeinNYK
As a knicks fan i reeeeall dont want love here, rather just stick it out with melo
also fail to see how blake griffin would be a better fit than love, maybe marginally but the cavs would improve much more by getting back two solid two-way players for Love
Cavs not trading him will be a huge mistake. It's like trying to put an engine that doesn't belong in a luxury car together. It might be a good engine but it won't run. Both parties benefit from this. I think a team that can really use Love are the Pistons, Clippers, Jazz, Blazers, Grizzlies, Rockets, and a few more. He can easily be a 20/10 player for those teams and get the shots he wants. But his potential is just really limited for the Cleveland. He can't defend so having him there is already a liability for half the time he's there. His offensive output doesn't look too well since he's mainly a three point shooter standing far from the basket (so his rebounding is hammered down). Really think Cavs should look to trade Love to the Celtics for Crowder/Bradley now and then try to get Pau Gasol or David West. I didn't like the idea before but Pau Gasol just wants to win and the more I think about it, they have to sign a guard anyways since J.R. is going to demand more money. Might as well get a better player in Bradley and Crowder can back LeBron up very nicely or slide into the SF in a small lineup.
I still like Blake straight up. You can get 3 and D guys in free agency. Add Blake and three defensive wings who can hit 3s and Cavs are good
It's just that easy, right?
If we can get Blake for Love, then in free agency get Gerald Green, Evan Turner, and OJ Mayo, we will be ready for whatever next season.
Not impossible if we put our minds to exactly that. I'd say its 50/50 if indeed the Cavs put there resources towards achieving it.
Who cares. he is a role player now :shrug:
Yeah, looks like both Lue and Griffin confirmed that they have no plans to move Love.
Jeffy25
A highly paid role player who affects their cap space
Well at the end of the day, that may very well be the case. But at the same time, if you want to get the best deal, that is also the attitude you want to display. If other teams know the Cavs want to get rid of Love, then they will low ball offer.
So not only could they be fronting, but also everyone has a price. Another team could offer a package to good to walk away from.
You are never going to say you are shopping a guy
Love for Okafor + Noel?
As they shouldn't. There's a very little chance they can even hope to get equal value for him. As it has been proven time and time again, there's only ONE bad matchup for him in the NBA, and that's Draymond Green and the Warriors. He's a nightmare in the pick-and-roll, and only the Warriors really play the kind of offense that exposes that because Green is a monster and Curry/Klay are 2 of the best shooters in NBA history. It's an awful matchup for a player like K-Love.
Otherwise, Kevin Love is a nightmare for most 4s in the league. He can spot-shoot and stretch the floor better than 98% of power forwards in the NBA. When needed, he has shown he can play in the post effectively. And on top of that, he's still a beast when it comes to rebounding. He averaged 9.9 rebounds this year, which was a "bad" year, except he also had Tristan Thompson grabbing 9 boards a game and LeBron grabbing 7.4. So he was still the best rebounder on a very good rebounding team.
He's not a bad player. He's an underutilized player whose last series against a bad matchup left the impression he's not good. That's just not true. He's a legitimate max contract player in the NBA who happens to only be the 3rd best player on his team. But in order to get equal value, it would be impossible for Cleveland. It would have to be a haul. Kyrie and LeBron need floor space, which a traditional 4 (especially paired with Thompson) won't provide. It's not as easy to replace Love as most think just because they watched the Finals. And Cleveland is smart enough to recognize that.
Yeah I think the biggest thing with the Big 3 pairing is a) one of the 3 has to be unselfish and b) that same unselfish player has to be versatile enough to complaint the other Big 2. It's clear that Love has to be either 1 or 2 in a Big 3. He doesn't want to sacrifice and he's not overly versatile. So while they won the title it was because James IMO is arguably the 2nd best player in the history of the NBA not because James/Irving/Love is a fit.
Yeah I think the biggest thing with the Big 3 pairing is a) one of the 3 has to be unselfish and b) that same unselfish player has to be versatile enough to complaint the other Big 2. It's clear that Love has to be either 1 or 2 in a Big 3. He doesn't want to sacrifice and he's not overall versatile. So while they won the title it was because James IMO is arguably the 2nd best player in the history of the NBA not because James/Irving/Love is a fit.
I think Love played great at times. Was nonexistent other times. The Cavs are in a great position. They can keep him and then get the necessary pieces to cover up for loves defensive problems. Or they can trade him and get rid of that weekness altogether, all while accumulating a good amount of talent.
I'm down with whatever they do, but they have to do something. They can't go into the season thinking that this exact team can repeat. They need to be very aggressive if they want to win. They need to act as if Durant already joined GS.
They surely cannot expect 37yr old RJ to repeat his performance. They will need to figure something out defensively without bringing in dead weight offensively.
Irving+James are not going to be able to carry the load next season or for future seasons. This dude has just go to go. He's a floor spacer and that's pretty much it. Great rebounder but who cares anymore? Dude doesn't play defense, looks like a lost puppy trying to get LeBron's attention, and doesn't play good enough to warrant being anything other than a 3rd option.. heck, maybe 4th option at times behind J.R. The thing is, if he proved he could be a post presence player or someone who can do more than just space the floor, he should show it. He's in the back there for a reason and quite honestly, just because they won, doesn't mean Love should be safe. He's not the reason they won and he will be the reason why they don't turn into a dynasty. James is getting older and though Irving is great, you can't have your $20 million player getting benched for a 38 year old player in the NBA Finals.
Could Cavs do a sign and trade with OKC Love for Durant and whatever pieces so that Durant got his money and OKC gets something in return and not just left without talent?
I feel like Durant would rather play with Lebron over playing with GS. GS just has the ability to do it.
No. We don't want Love unless we get rid of Ibaka.. which we did. I don't want that guy here at all taking up $20 million. We don't win with Love as a second option anyways. Huge setback for us, good for Cleveland.
I hear ya but wouldn't it be better than just loosing him for nothing to GS?
I think Westbrook, Olidipo, Love would actually be a pretty good threesome. Obviously you never want to loose Durant for anyone, but I think having the above threesome to start next season would keep you in the top three in the west and make for a very intriguing start to your season. Love has learned a lot about winning basketball too.
I think Westbrook, Olidipo, Love would actually be a pretty good threesome. Obviously you never want to loose Durant for anyone, but I think having the above threesome to start next season would keep you in the top three and make for a very intriguing start to your season. Love has learned a lot about winning basketball too.
What has he learned? haha.. if Kyrie doesn't knock down that three, we're talking a for-sure trade with Kevin Love involved. Them winning is great but it doesn't change the fact it was literally two guys for Cleveland all series with TT being a beast too.
LOL, let me stop. It would be amazing for Cleveland, terrible for OKC, but not as bad as what probably will happen when Durant goes to GS. I'd love to see Durant and Lebron on the same squad though.
with Westbrook Thunder will still win quite a bit of games. I'm not sure if you guys can get someone better then Kevin Love. So the Thunder would listen to this. I think the NBA vetos any trade of Durant to Cleveland or Golden state though.
It is. We will be paying him $20 million and have him stuck in our cap. No thanks!
So your plan is for Bron to become more of a jumpshooter despite his career rates trending towards him becoming more and more of an interior player? I think you're better off hoping Blake can continue expanding his range than hoping Bron gets his legs back.
As for your example, you use 2 teams that won off historically elite defenses to prove that the spacing wasn't a problem for them? Before I get to why that is wrong, yup problem solved, you just gotta hope they make for a historic defense (hear that Channing Frye). Anyways, its wrong because those teams actually had bigmen who could space you out. Does the name Bill Laimbeer ring a bell, dude was taking 3's before the pre-zone era made them fashionable. Sheed was the preeminent stretch 4 who could also defend back in the day. Not to mention Tay, Rip and Chauncey were all threats on the perimeter. They really only had 1 guy you could sag off of and even then you had to keep a body on him because he was the guy crashing the glass.
Those Pistons had the talent to play 4 out - 1 in, hell they could even bring Mehmet Okur off the bench and play a 5-out offense. Their offense revolved around Rip coming off screens and hitting cutters with the spacing provided by his movement, Sheeds outlet shooting, Chauncey's elite shooting and Tay was a respectable shooter/slasher.
You're gonna start Blake AND Frye? Sounds awful considering Blake struggles with his defense alongside an actual DPOY caliber anchor and elite defensive PG.
Their talent alone should leave them as contenders but the mix sounds even worse than it was before and I see a decline offensively cuz where is Blake gonna get his shots in such a cramped environment alongside even more ball dominant teammates?
They got Bronze again(or Silver) when AI wasn't on the team and they were winning gold with other ball hogs before. AI actually played with heart and was playing mostly off the ball from what I remember. The truth is we could've won had the fit been better and we didn't take children like Melo and Bron before they were ready. Then again, even the vets felt like the arenas were the loudest they've ever been to and that it felt like the entire world was against them. We just needed shooters to be honest, its why our rate of 3's have exploded in international comp in the years since. Instead of RJ we should've had Battier. Instead of AI or Marbury we should've had Rip or someone. More team oriented guys to play around a dominant athlete, which could've been either of the 2 diminutive guards. We shouldve played smaller like we would in the coming years.
I won't be mad if we go ahead and just keep Kevin Love (unless I hear word that we turned down some kind of package with Millsap). I'd rather our team tell Love to pack on some more pounds and muscle and see if he can be a little bit of a stronger force inside.
Love is a 3rd option and won't ever put up beautiful numbers on a regular basis for us. So I'll be happy with 16/10, but hopefully he can become a bit more efficient.
Also, I hope Lue have our guys switching a lot on defense during the regular season and getting better at playing well as a team defensively.
It was entirely the fit and its what led to the system we have in place now. Team USA was BY FAR the most talented team in the tournament, the reason they lost was because they didn't mesh so dont give me that talent talk. FYI, Michael Redd and Mike Miller were NEVER part of any Bronze team so please check your facts if you dont recall the events at hand. Not that you would care but it makes me trust you less in future/current debates.
Redd and Miller were only added to the team AFTER the failure in Athens and the less spectacular failure at the World Championships. They knew we needed more spacing and true PG's to spearhead the attack.
In 2004, Team USA sent nothing but SF's and didn't even try going small. Like whats the point in bringing the rooks for future development I guess? Shawn Marion and RJ were basically the same player who couldn't really space you out, particularly without the PG's to feed them quality looks. Then again, they were clanking WIDEOPEN shots so I doubt that was an issue.
in 2006, the hopes were that bringing the same cast of youngsters would lead to improved chemistry so this was the year we finally got to see CP3-Bron-Wade-Melo-Bosh core play the majority of the time, problem is, none of them are shooters so the the big addition as the designated shooters and glue guys were Kirk Hinrich, Battier and Joe Johnson. While they helped the problem (we outshot the opponents on average from 3) they weren't primary guys really, we still played alot of 1v1 and prototypical lineups with 2 natural bigs (tho less often).
In the sole loss vs Greece we were clanking everything, particularly the stars who have scoring ability thats "off the chain".
BKLYNpigeon
Kevin Love had a good playoffs other then 3 games in the finals.
Hes not getting traded.
The reason we lost is because we did not send our best. Sean Marion and Richard Jefferson have no buisness in our top 12 NBA players. After the original dream team we sent our absolute best for a while, but then we got complacent, send our 3rd and 4th string unit because the Stars turned it down and then we lost. If we send our 12 best players, I dont care what the fit is, our 12 best have always dominated Chronz.
Your "off the chain" scoring reference was false and pathetic, because it was false. We didnt have scorers who were off the chain. Our best Scorers at the time, Kobe, Vince, Tracy, Shaq, KG, all decided to stay home.
The talent was still incredibly in our favor and we lost because its a 1 and done tourney where anything can happen. Looking at the entire run in the 04 Olympics tho, we still underperformed and it was entirely due to bad spacing. You get less talented guys in place of Marion and RJ like Redd and Battier and the team performs much better. As it was, we still had Duncan, Jermaine, Iverson leading them and its not like Bron, Wade and Melo were chopped liver. We just had a bad fit and bad coaching (an underrated factor).
Even tho we lost in 06, the team played MUCH better and that was amidst the primes of those Big 3 so their scoring ability shouldn´t be questioned. Like Wade was a better scorer than Shaq by 06 for instance.
We send our 12 best, we win easily. We didn't come close to doing that so we lost.
04 Olympics was just a terrible roster that was horribly managed and runned. Larry Brown fell in love with Allen Iverson and thought this was the Sixers so he made him hog the ball as always. With Mike K., he does a great job of splitting the players ability evenly but USA Olympics has really taken a huge turn from when they didn't have the best players to now, where the best are usually in it. There comes a point where the talent regardless of the fit is just too good that it doesn't matter.
tyhgu
It seems pretty obvious that Kevin Love needs to be traded. What teams out there want Love and what can the Cavs expect to get back. What is your best trade scenario for the Cavs this offseason?http://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/24.gifhttp://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/6.gif
http://yeahonlinemarketing.com/apple/images/4.gif


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Chris Martin Taps Girlfriend Dakota Johnson to Direct Cold…
Chris Martin Taps Girlfriend Dakota Johnson to Direct Coldplay's Romantic 'Cry, Cry, Cry' Video
AceShowbiz
15 Feb 2020 0 shares 1 views
The three-and-a-half-minute visuals, which sees a couple working through life's obstacles side-by-side, marks the 'Fifty Shades of Grey' actress' directorial debut.
Dakota Johnson Reveals How She Came to Direct Coldplay's 'Cry Cry Cry' Video (& It's Not Because She's Dating Chris Martin)
Just Jared 12 May 2020
Dakota Johnson directed the "Cry, Cry, Cry" music video for her boyfriend Chris Martin's band Coldplay, and now, she's..
Dakota Johnson Directs Boyfriend Chris Martin in Coldplay's Romantic "Cry, Cry, Cry" Music Video
E! Online 14 Feb 2020
Dakota Johnson Directs Coldplay's 'Cry Cry Cry' Music Video - Watch!
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redpajama_set_name: RedPajamaCommonCrawl


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Lily´s Grammar
8 May, 2016 / Camilla1509	/ Leave a comment
Latin was a fundamental part of the learning in any grammar school in the 16th century, and as the name of the school from the beginning indicate; Latin grammar in particular.
Any student who ever entered this kind of school would have encountered it; Lily´s Grammar, written by William Lily, the first headmaster of St. Paul´s school in London.
William Lily was born in or around 1468 in Odiham, Hampshire. No much is known about his childhood, and his parents remains, at least to me, anonymous, but at the age of 18 he entered the university of Oxford, allegedly Magdalen College, for studies of the arts. It has been suggested that he chose this college due to the fact that William Grocyn, scholar and supposedly godfather of William Lily, was the reader of divinity at Magdalen College at the time.
In 1488 Grocyn went to Italy to study Greek and Latin, and it may be that this too was an inspiration to William Lily, because after graduating for Oxford he went on a pilgrimage to Jerusalem and upon his travel back to England ended up in Rome, by way of Rhodos. In Rome he attended lectures by the Renaissance humanists Angelo Sabino, Giovanni Sulpizio da Veroli and the controversial, to say the least Guilio Pomponio Leto. From there he continued to Venice to attend further lectures, given by who is unclear.
Upon returning to England, he became one of the first scholars in Greek, together with William Grocyn and Thomas Linacre who founded the Department for Greek Studies at Oxford.
Among his friends, once back in England, could be found, apart from Grocyn and Linacre, Thomas More, Erasmus and John Colet.
William Lily is thought to have been the first to teach Greek in the city of London, first as a private teacher alongside the teaching of grammar. In 1510 John Colet, who was dean of St. Paul´s, founded St Paul´s School, and started searching for a headmaster of the school. His first choice for the position seems to have been Erasmus, who for some reason was not interested. The second choice was William Lily, who started at the school in 1512 and shaped the school into a model of classical studies.
At some point between his return to England and his acceptance of the position as the first headmaster of St Paul´s School, it is said that William Lily considered becoming a priest, but whether he decided against it because he met Agnes, or he had already chosen another career path when he met her, but marry Agnes he did, and during the 17 years their marriage lasted, they had 15 children together, of whom only two survived their father. Agnes herself died at the age of 37, probably in 1517.
But it isn´t primarily for his position as a pioneer for Greek learning that William Lily has come to be remembered. It is for his work "A short introduction to Grammar", a school book in Latin which came to be in use all the way into the 19th century. The book was instigated by Colet and edited by Erasmus. After William Lily´s death parts were added, and the final result didn´t appear until 1540. In 1542 Henry VIII proclaimed it to be the only book on the subject to be used in grammar schools, and over the decades to follow, it was so widely used that it has a part of its own in four of the plays by William Shakespeare; The Merry Wives of Windsor, Much Ado About Nothing, Titus Andronicus and Henry IV Part I. The book was divided into two parts, the second one being "Brevissima Institutio seu ratio grammaces cognoscendae", which is believed to have given Shakespeare himself maybe his first contact with poetry, as the book partly consist of the poem "Carmen de Moribus.
He also wrote prose in both Latin and Greek.
William Lily died in 1522, around the age of 54 years. The reason for his death is in some sources suggested to have been the plague, which seems to have taken his wife and several of his children, but others suggest that he died from an operation having gone wrong when trying to remove an inflamed boil.
He was buried in the north churchyard of St Paul´s cathedral, destroyed in the Great Fire in 1666, and his name is among those of the memorial that can now be seen the cathedral.
Luminarium Encyclopedia Project
Repertorium Pomponianum
Dictionary of National Biography – Joseph Hirst Lupton
Linacre, Thomas – Dictionary of National Biography/Sidney Lee
Shakespeare and his world/Lily´s Grammar – Prof Jonathan Bate, University of Warwick/Shakespeare Birthplace Trust
Theories of identity – the alleged Shakespeare mystery
19 April, 2016 / Camilla1509	/ Leave a comment
Some subjects, in history or in our time, can be a bit like a hornets nest. It shouldn´t be touched or poked, because the risk is that you will be severely stung. But probably against better judgement, I will try to approach the theories existing around the identity of William Shakespeare.
I will yet again stress that I personally hold the very firm belief that William Shakespeare was the man born in Stratford to John Shakespeare and Mary Arden, but some people don´t, and I´m curious enough to take a peak at what they actually believe, and why.
Let´s start out with the ones that has been lifted as potential candidates. Some years ago, the film Anonymous came and went, and at the bottom of the plot was the Oxfordian theory which holds as a fact that the real Shakespeare was Edward de Vere, the 17th Earl of Oxford.
This is seemingly the most popular theory and contains a fair amount of conspiracy theory, namely that records has been falsified to protect the identity of the real author. It was first presented in the 1920 by Thomas Looney, an English writer to whom it was inconceivable that a person further down the social ladder than a nobleman could possibly create the work that William Shakespeare, the son of a glover, did.
There are no links to connect de Vere to the actual work of Shakespeare, and in absence of evidence, that absence has come to in itself be evidence for the Oxfordian following, a so called argument from silence.
The proof for the true identity of Shakespeare, according to Oxfordian theorists, are similarities between the life of Edward de Vere and Shakespeare´s plays, longer poems and sonnets. This would of course mean that a large number of his work would in fact be biographical. One also point out similarities in language, idioms and thought in Shakespeare´s work and surviving letters and poems actually written by de Vere.
In this case, one could on the other hand argue that no man is an island, and that it isn´t that rare to find similarities between two contemporary men without coming to the conclusion that they are one and the same.
That no plays exist under de Vere´s own name is taking as further evidence, as one is of the opinion that he may have been one of several writers suppressed during the 16th and 17th century, one of the "anonymous". Edward de Vere died in 1604, at which point the world had another 12 plays penned by Shakespeare to look forward to.
This is by Oxfordian's explained by stating that a dedication to the Sonnets implies that the author was dead previous to the publication, and that the plays written after 1604 are the work of collaborators of de Vere.
In one of the many branches of the Oxford theory one also find a love child of de Vere´s and Elizabeth I who, as an homage to his father's nom de plume, adopted the stage name William Shakespeare.
Other circumstances considered evidence by the Oxfordian's are de Vere´s connections to the theatre as he was a known patron, family connections as the dedications of Shakespeare´s plays are to actual or proposed husbands of de Vere´s daughters (the earls of Southampton, Montgomery and Pembroke). On the other hand, there wouldn´t have existed many other authors at the time if a few Oxfordian's are to be believed as there are those who think de Vere was also Edmund Spenser, Christopher Marlowe, Philp Sidney, John Lyly, George Peele, George Gascoigne, Raphael Holinshed, Robert Greene, Thomas Phaer, and Arthur Golding. The author and motivational speaker Paul Streitz has even suggested that de Vere is the real man behind King James Bible.
Common for Oxfordian's is that they disregard evidence found by historians
The theories of another author than the man from Stratford-upon-Avon started in the 19th century, and the first candidate was Sir Francis Bacon, philosopher, essayist and scientist, in the Baconian theory and his reason for writing under a pseudonym should have been that being a playwright would presumably have been that this dubious occupation would have hindered him from achieving success within his other areas.
Here, as in the Oxfordian theory, William Shakespeare himself is mostly a poster boy.
This theory was introduced by Delia Bacon, American writer of plays and short stories who eventually thought she herself was a descendant of Sir Francis (which she wasn´t). The Baconian Theory seems to be a mish-mash of misunderstandings, including the 18th century pamphlet The Learned Pig which has no references to Francis Bacon at all (here I really have to bite my, if not tongue, so the fingers I write with) and research, exposed as fraudulent, conducted by the English clergyman James Wilmot.
During the 19th century it was claimed by some that Bacon through ciphers in the text of the original plays (by Shakespeare) revealed his true identity, and while de Vere was suggested as the father of Elizabeth I´s alleged son, it was now suggested that Francis Bacon himself. The father in this version would be the favourite courtier Robert Dudley, and Robert Devereux was supposedly the younger brother.
All in all, the Baconian theory is about hidden messages, secret codes and a profound contempt for the idea that someone of a humble origin could have a profound talent, and it has rightfully been dismissed by all serious academics.
There is also the Marlovian theory, where someone I find incredibly fascinating in his own right is dragged in to the attempts to prove Shakespeare wasn´t Shakespeare; the playwright Christopher Marlowe.
This theory is based on the assumption that Marlowe was not at all murdered in Deptford in 1593, but change identity and continued writing under the assumed name of William Shakespeare. The assumptions are based on alleged anomalies surrounding Marlowe´s death and the fact Shakespeare´s name was connected with any literary work for the first time two weeks after Marlowe´s death.
The death of Christopher Marlowe was however acknowledged as genuine by 16 jurors at the time, and as he was far from unknown at the time of his passing, it´s highly unlikely that he would have lived on as another person without ever having been exposed. There *are* things surrounding both his life and his death that raise questions, but the possibility that he would have been Shakespeare is not one of them.
The funny thing about this theory, which was initiated in the 1890´s by T.W. White is that it was preceded in the 1820´s by another theory presented by an anonymous writer in The Monthly Review; that Christopher Marlowe might at one point have been a pseudonym used by William Shakespeare.
Finally, the probably least known theory, and also the one to have the least life in it; the Derbyite theory. In this it is suggested that the "real" Shakespeare was William Stanley, 6th Earl of Derby.
Introduced in the late 19th century, by the archivist James H. Greenstreet, this is a theory that has been favoured by French writers. It is based on the discovery of letters stating that Derby was "penning plays for common players".
Greenstreet pointed out similarities in Love´s Labour´s Lost and a pageant only held at Derby´s home. Greenstreet however died at the age of 45 before he had the chance to elaborate any further on his theory.
Seven Pillories of Wisdom – David R. Hall
Historical evidence and argument – David P. Henige
Shakespeare´s Fingerprints – Michael Brame, Galina Popova
The Genius of Shakespeare – Jonathan Bate
Hollywood Dishonours the Bard – James Shapiro, New York Times
Forgery on forgery – James Shapiro, Times Literary Supplement
England's Elizabeth: An Afterlife in Fame and Fantasy – Michael Dobson & Nicola J. Watson
The Monthly Review, Or, Literary Journal – Ralph Griffiths, G. E. Griffiths
The language of William Shakespeare
There is a scene in Black Adder where Rowan Atkinson punch William Shakespeare in the shape of Colin Firth for the suffering he has caused endless school boys and school girls for the past 400 years, as they without result tried to find a joke in Midsummer Night´s Dream.
But while it is a recurring joke about the torment suffered primarily by English students as they were forced to read Shakespeare in school, one shouldn´t underestimate his impact on the language we all speak when we speak English, regardless if it´s as mother tongue or an acquired language later on. Surely we have all at one point stated that something or someone – maybe ourselves even – has "seen better days"? Maybe we have "come full circle" or stated that we´ve ended up with "strange bedfellows". All of a sudden, we have without realising it, most likely, quoted William Shakespeare. It has been estimated that Shakespeare used 17 677 words in his work, plays, poems, sonnets included, and that 1 700 of those words were used for the very first time the moment Shakespeare wrote them down.
He is also considered to have borrowed freely from classical literature and languages other than English, something actually done by the entire nation during the period; it´s estimated that between 1500 and 1659, no less than 30 000 new words were added to the English language through nouns, verbs and modifiers of Latin, Greek and modern Romance languages.
In Shakespeare´s time, as well as -of course – prior to his time, English was not standardised, but as his plays became popular, it contributed to shaping a more uniform language.
Shakespeare has of course inspired other playwrights and authors, Charles Dickens and Herman Melville have been mentioned, but also more recent cultural expressions, such as lines in songs, titles of albums and films.
A few examples are given by Hepzibah Andersson in her article for BBC Culture; singer Nick Lowe, Agatha Christie and Alfred Hitchcock borrowed from Hamlet while Iron Maiden got a quote from Richard III and Mumford and Sons found a title for an album in Much Ado About Nothing.
Whether that was done unwittingly or done intentionally, I dare not say, but I can promise you that you at some point will quote Shakespeare without thinking about it. Maybe you are visited by the "green-eyed monster of jealousy", or you simply refer to something as "gossip", and there he is, smiling just in the corner of your eye.
How Shakespeare influences the way we speak now – Hepzibah Andersson, BBC Culture
Words Shakespeare invented – Shakespeare Online
Shakespeare coined words now common currency – Jennifer Vernon, National Geographic News
April: Shakespeare Month
5 April, 2016 / Camilla1509	/ Leave a comment
We have entered the month which sees the anniversary of the death of the Bard, William Shakespeare. On April 23rd it will be 400 years since the greatest playwright of all times passed away in 1616, opening the door to all kinds of speculation about him, and even about who he was.
Personally I will hold on to the opinion that the man who wrote the plays was who he said he was, a man born in Stratford upon Avon, son of John Shakespeare and Mary Arden, husband of Anne Hathaway until I´m beyond even the slightest shadow of a doubt convinced otherwise.
I will how ever take the opportunity to explore the different theories of those who believe otherwise.
My ambition for this month, which will for the already mentioned reason, see more posts than normally about Shakespeare, is to be able to present both regular posts/articles as well as interviews with people who in different ways has dedicated parts or all of their lives to William Shakespeare, his work and legacy.
In the meantime, please check out these links for activities in related to the anniversary:
Shakespeare400
Shakespeare´s England
Shakespeare´s Globe
Shakespeare Lives
World-Wide Shakespeare
The Wonder of Will: 400 Years of Shakespeare
Shakespeare 400 Chicago
(where they also commemorate the 400 year annivarsary of the death of Cervantes)
Cervantes and Shakespeare
And last but not least, a European compilation
European Shakespeare Festivals Network
Lady Arbella Stuart
13 March, 2016 / Camilla1509	/ Leave a comment
On January 21st 1582 Walshingham receives a letter from George, Earl of Shrewsbury where he asks Walshingham to inform the Queen of the death of his daughter – Elizabeth Cavendish, Countess of Lenox – and that she "commend to her royal favor her infant and orphan daughter" and that the little girl now was destitute and her grandmother "taketh her daughter's death so grievously, and so mourneth and lamenteth, that she cannot think of aught but tears"
The grandmother in question was the Countess of Shrewsbury, known to history primarily as Bess of Hardwick, and the young girl who now lacked both her parents was Arbella Stuart, second cousin to the Queen and cousin of James IV of Scotland, later also to become James I of England.
Her grandmother would be prepared to fight for what she believed was Arbella´s rights, and on the 28th that same month she turned to Walshingham asking him to solicit for the same portion (pension) that had been previously been granted her daughter, to secure the young girl´s education and training in good virtues. It seems her request goes unheard this first time around, because she returns in May that same year, again making that same request, stating that the young girl´s mother on her sickbed….
Arbella was 7 years at the time, and instead of becoming a ward of the crown which was the usual for heiresses, she would stay with her grandmother at Hardwick Hall, from where she seems to have gone for occasional visits to court during the years to follow. She would eventually fall out with her grandmother whose ambition to see Arbella on the throne was greater than those of Arbella herself.
Arbella did get her education through tutors, and 10 years after the death of her mother, her grandmother Bess writes to Lord Burghley, William Cecil, of one of her grand-daughters attendants, a Morley who "hath attended on Arbell & red to hyr for the space of thre yere & a half". The fact that he had read to her, and a later reference to him studying at the university, has led some – among others the author Charles Nicholl – to believe that Morley was the playwright Christopher Marlowe who at times has his name spelt in that way.
The Countess of Shrewsbury goes on to explain that the man in question apparently has been waiting to receive some kind of annuity from Arbella as his work there had been damaging to his university studies, and that he due to this, and due to the fact that the formidable Bess finds him suspicious, not least because of his "forwardness in religion (though I can not charge him with papistry)" she took the opportunity to fire him.
While this post really isn´t about Christopher Marlowe, it is highly interesting that Bess of Hardwick still seems to have found *something* catholic about this man, as Christopher Marlowe would at one point be suspected for being catholic.
But back to Arbella; as a great-grandchild of Henry VII through his daughter Margaret Tudor in her second marriage to Archibald Douglas, 6th Earl of Angus, she had a claim to the throne – which she herself didn´t seem much interested in pursuing – and for a while she was considered as a successor to the childless Elizabeth I who was drawing towards the end of her reign and life, but it seems that from the beginning of the 1590´s, the Cecil´s preferred her cousin, James IV of Scotland (Arbella´s father had been the brother of Lord Darnley, murdered husband of Mary Queen of Scots).
Arbella´s own seeming disinterest in the throne, and the fact that another successor was in the end chosen, did not prevent others from wanting to see her on the throne. In 1603, after the death of Elizabeth I, she allegedly was the focus point in The Main Plot in 1603. The plot is thought to have been funded by Spain, and led by Henry Brook, Lord Cobham and was only discovered during investigation into the Bye Plot – a plot striving to force the implementation of religious tolerance and headed by Lord Cobham´s brother George Brooke.
The members of both conspiracies where tried together, and one of the accused was Sir Walter Raleigh, at the time governor of Jersey. It was alleged that the money provided by Spain would be brought here and divided between Lord Cobham and Raleigh to be used in the plot as they saw necessary. It has on one side been suggested that it´s utterly ridiculous that Raleigh, who had fought Spain during the reign of Elizabeth, not least during the defeat of the Spanish Armada, would all of a sudden turn on England in this fashion and during many years Raleigh´s involvement in the plot was considered marginal* at most, but it did send him to the Tower for the next 13 years.
Arbella herself had early on reported the invitation to join the plot to her cousin the King.
Throughout her childhood, possible marriage candidates had been discussed, and among those suggested or interested in securing her hand was Edward Seymour, 1st Earl of Hertford (a potential match infuriated the Earl´s father), Ludovic Stuart, 2nd Duke of Lennox as well as the king of Poland, Sigismund III Vasa, son of the Swedish King John III.
When she did eventually marry, it was after a betrothal entered in secret. In 1610, news reached the king that Arbella was planning to marry the 13 years younger William Seymour, Lord Beauchamp. This worried the King, as Arbella was fourth in line for the throne and William – being the grandson of Lady Katherine Grey and therefore descendant of Henry VII through Mary Tudor (with Charles Brandon) – sixth in line and it´s no wonder if he thought this was a prelude to an attempt at taking the throne.
Both of them however denied that any agreement existed between them, which was clearly a lie as they got married in secret on June 22nd 1610 at Greenwich Palace. This led to their arrest once the king had found out, and Arbella was kept at Sir Thomas Perry´s house at Lambeth while Seymour was brought to the Tower.
Like her grandmother, Arbella wrote letters that has survived, some of them from this period, and sometime after her arrest, most likely from Lambeth, she petitioned the King, asking for his forgiveness;
"May it please your most excellent Majesty
To regard with the eyes of your royal and gracious heart, the unfortunate estate, your Majesty´s handmaid, who, knowing your Majesty´s gracious favour to her to be the greatest honour, comfort and felicity that this world can afford, doth now feel any part of the contrary to be the most grievous affliction to her that can be imagined. Whereinsoever your Majesty will say I have offended I will not contest but in all humility prostrate myself at your Majesty´s feet; only I do most humbly on my knees beseech your Majesty to believe that that thought never yet entered to my heart to do anything that might justly deserve any part of your indignation……"
However, Arbella did not only write numerous letters and petitions to the King, she did also write to her husband, and when this came to the King´s attention, he arranged for her to be moved from Lambeth into the care of the Bishop of Durham. The move was delayed due to Arbella claiming to be sick, and during this delay she and her husband attempted to escape.
The plan was to meet up at Lee in Kent, there to get on a ship heading for France. Arbella was during her escape dressed as a man to avoid detection, and it has been suggested that Shakespeare based the character of Imogen in Cymberline on Arbella. When she arrived her husband was nowhere to be found, while he had managed to get out of the Tower, he arrived too late and the two boarded different ships.
Arbella´s ship was intercepted by the King´s men just as it was about to reach Calais, and she was brought to the Tower.
Arbella would never see her husband – who would go on to be a commander during the Civil War – again or even leave the Tower.
On September 25th 1615 Arabella Stuart died from illness and malnutrition due to refusing to eat, at the age of 40.
Calendar of State Papers Domestic of Elizabeth I, 1581 – 1590
Bessofhardwick.org – collected letters of the Countess of Shrewsbury
Life of Lady Arabella Stuart, Volume 1 + 2 – Mrs A. Murray Smith
Lexscripta.com
The Letters of Lady Arbella Stuart – Sarah Jayne Steen
*History changes as new evidence is put forward and the view on Raleigh´s part has somewhat changed, but that is clearly for another post.
Grief fills the room up of my absent child – Hamnet Shakespeare
11 August, 2015 11 August, 2015 / Camilla1509	/ Leave a comment
At this time 419 years ago, there is reason to think that William Shakespeare was at home with his family in Stratford-upon-Avon. It seems he had been on tour in Kent at the time, but there is no reason to think that he may not have returned home when hearing that his son was sick.
That was an occurrence that wasn´t that common, the playwright spent most of his time in London where he had his theatre, or on the road, travelling with his company, The Lord Chamberlain´s Men, but on this day, a young boy was brought to his final resting place; Hamnet Shakespeare, the 11 year old son of William and his wife Anne Hathaway.
He was not the only child in the family, he had an older sister, Susannah, born only six months after the marriage between William and the older Anne, but he also had a twin sister, Judith, both of the most likely named after Shakespeare´s friend and neighbour Hamnet Sandler and his wife Judith. Some scholars have suggested that the play Hamlet had lent his name from the son who passed far too early.
It has been pointed out that while for example Ben Johnson wrote heartfelt about the loss of his own son, Shakespeare himself did never really openly introduce the character of his lost child in any of his plays, and it has been suggested that since Shakespeare in reality "abandoned" his family when the twins still were just infants to pursue his career as an actor and playwright in London, only to visit on occasion, his grief may have just been brief, not least since a one out three of children at the time died before the age of 10. The explanation should have been that parents could not really "afford" to invest too much emotion into a child they may never see grown up anyway
But we all grieve differently and in an article from 2004 Stephen Greenblatt points out that while Shakespeare during the four years that followed Hamnet´s death, wrote some of the most light-hearted plays of his production, such as The Merry Wives of Windsor, Much Ado About Nothing and As You Like it, he also just the year after Hamnet´s death introduces a grief stricken mother in his play King John which includes a line that could break the heart of anyone with children in their lives; "Grief fills the room up of my absent child".
One can of course argue that Shakespeare had hardly seen the boy since he was an infant, but as we are collectively so willing to state how little we know of Shakespeare the man, we of course know nothing of his feelings faced with the fact that he was no longer the father of a son.
Greenblatt also suggest that the grief of Ophelia´s brother in Hamlet, the play with the name so closely resembling that of the lost son, is Shakespear´s grief, that when Laertes lament the lack of ceremony at her grave, it is the Bard himself that laments the same at his son´s grave?
Only a few years after Hamnet´s death his grandfather, John Shakespeare, died, a man who is said to have had Catholics leanings in a world that had over the last decades turned more and more protestant, and one suggestion is that the play is his eulogy over both his son and his father
The death of Hamnet and making of Hamlet – Stephen Greenblatt, The New York Review of Books
Shakespeare´s Last Will and Testament
William Shakespeare: A Compact Documentary Life – Samuel Schoenbaum
Images: Wikipedia


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Chicago Heads Toward First Teacher Strike in History of Charter Schools
By David Cantor | October 31, 2018
Teachers at Chicago's largest unionized charter say they'll strike as resentment deepens between @CTULocal1 and charters #ILCharters
.@CTULocal1 says possible charter strike necessary for "educational justice" #ILCharters
The first teacher strike in the 27-year history of American charter schools was overwhelmingly endorsed by staff at Chicago's largest unionized network in response to what labor leaders characterized as stalled contract negotiations.
Whether more than 500 teachers who work at one of the 15 Acero schools will actually walk out remains uncertain. A strike date has not been set.
But the vote reflects the emerging influence in the charter sector of the Chicago Teachers Union, the powerful labor body that merged earlier this year with a smaller local representing charter employees. As contracts expire for teachers in charters represented by CTU, supporters of school choice warn that CTU hopes to bargain for changes that undercut the viability of the charter model.
"If you're a real cynic, you say the teachers union went off on charter schools to kill them," said a person with knowledge of the negotiations who wasn't authorized to discuss them. "And when they couldn't kill them, they tried to represent them. Now, they're negotiating in a way that charters can't pay the bill."
New Report Shows Chicago's Charter Schools Yield Higher Test Scores — and College Enrollment
Chicago has the second-highest percentage of unionized charter schools in the country, trailing only Los Angeles, with unionized staff in about one-quarter of the city's 128 charters. Acero educates roughly 7,500 students, more than any other charter operator in the city after the Noble Network, which has fought organizing attempts, and Chicago International, four of whose campuses will hold a strike vote on Friday amid unfruitful negotiations.
Acero teachers unionized in 2013, when the network was known as UNO, and nearly struck over pensions two years ago. Teachers are seeking pay raises and improved benefits, along with smaller class sizes and better support for students with disabilities.
"Acero in many respects is typical of the charter industry across the city and, frankly, across the country," said CTU spokeswoman Christine Geovanis. "They seek to lowball what they invest in their students and lowball what they invest in classrooms and lowball what they invest in educators."
Charter supporters believe the union is disingenuous about the reasons it organized the potential job actions.
Andrew Broy, president of the Illinois Network of Charter Schools, says the union's aim is to "stop charter growth entirely" by forcing charters to accede to pay increases he says they can't afford or to force a financially ruinous strike.
"The remedy is not strikes," Broy said, "the remedy is to fix the [state] charter funding formula. But when that comes up in the state legislature, the union fights it."
Broy believes CTU has "slow-walked the negotiation, which suggests to me that it's political, attracting lots of media attention and probably tying it with the mayor's race," which will be held next February.
The CTU struck in 2012 in an epic showdown with Mayor Rahm Emanuel, who is not running for re-election. The union came close to walking out again in 2016 when it reached an agreement with Chicago Public Schools that included, among the usual pay increases and pension contributions, a cap on charter schools and the number of students who could enroll in them.
Chicago Avoids Teachers Strike, but Charter School Leaders Cry Foul Over Cap Slipped Into Negotiations
In a statement after the vote, Acero said that "it is unfair to parents and students to threaten to disrupt classes when Acero Schools is more than willing to continue negotiations and work with the federal mediator brought in this weekend."
Acero spokeswoman Noelle Gaffney added in a statement to The 74, "The parties are still meeting and have several more bargaining sessions scheduled over the next couple of weeks."
"We are continuing to negotiate in good faith," she said, "but given the strike vote, we are also taking steps to prepare for a strike."
Emanuel Confident That Chicago's Universal Pre-K Program Will Live On After His Exit, but Will Next Mayor Balk at the Price Tag?
David Cantor
david@the74million.org
@cantorrac