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If you have left the charismatic movement...why? Where did you go (denominationally)? Do you still believe in speaking in tongues/prophecy/healing/slain in the spirit, etc? Do you think the charismatic movement today is different than it was, say 20 years ago?
I'm open to hearing all views right now (just, please, no denomination bashing).
I'm not going to tell you that you should leave a charismatic church. (Even though I attend a Baptist church and there isn't much speaking in tongues there. :rofl:) There are people that are charismatic that I respect and I know are definitely saved. My problem with some (not all, please understand that) self-proclaimed charismatic churches are that they focus on feelings very heavily.
Please though, don't leave your charismatic church so quickly. Examine why you are thinking about leaving and decide for yourself if it is a valid reason. For example if someone did something you didn't agree with or something like that then it's probably better to stay. Then, find some churches in your area and weigh out what they teach with what the Bible says. If you disagree with something a pastor has said, as a brother in Christ you are justified and going and asking him what he meant by his statement.
Find out why you are leaving, visit multiple choices, don't rush to a decision, and above all pray for guidance often. It isn't ever easy leaving a church, so I understand where you are coming from.
Thanks. I'm not rushing. It's not over anything personal or a particular sermon. More over the direction I think this particular church and a lot of other charismatic churches are heading. Also uncertainty as to my beliefs on a couple issues.
I left a charismatic church for a strong Pentecostal church. Yes, I still believe very much in speaking in tongues, etc.
I was searching for a Pentecostal church when I fell right in the lap of a charismatic church. At the time, I didn't realize there was a difference between the two, but I had enough discernment to know what I experienced at the charismatic church was not Christ-honoring, nor was it biblical.
I've been at the Pentecostal church for well over a year now and have been very happy.
It is long but worth the read!
See, that's the problem when you associate yourselves with denominations, churches and movements rather than Christ. DeadtoSin had good advice, I'd follow it if I were in your position.
See, that's the problem when you associate yourselves with denominations, churches and movements rather than Christ.
I agree with you, but the question is more than just saying "I belong to such and such denomination." I feel that Christian fellowship and church attendance is important (although I'm open to hearing from any non-churched persons on the board) and the fact is that churches are divided into denominations and each denomination tends to have a certain "flavor" to it; acknowledging, of course, that each congregation is going to be different due to the dynamics of those who lead and attend there.
I actually love the church I am attending right now. It is very friendly and fun. My girls love the Sunday School program. I love the music and have friends there. The preacher, until recently, has been preaching hard-hitting sermons that were just what I needed to hear. That is why this is a tough question for me. Why I'm even thinking of going is that I'm starting to not like the direction the church is heading in...seeking more after signs and wonders and listening to those who preach about experiences and manifestations and promote Dominion/Kingdom Now Theology. But, it is not just my church. I'm finding that most charismatic/non-denom churches (at least all the ones within a reasonable drive of my house) are also following this direction. Hence my quandry about leaving the charismatic movement altogether. It is a bit of a mini crisis-of-faith over what I believe regarding tongues, prophecy, etc.
Obviously I don't know what your church is like but I personally disagree with some teachings I've seen in the charismatic environments, especially the word/faith "name it and claim it" mentality.
Speaking in tongues is a gift of the holy spirit that only SOME possess. Don't let anyone tell you that your faith is weak or your somehow deficient (or worse yet not saved) if you do not have such a gift. I'm guessing that might be the reason you are questioning your current church.
As some others have said, I would look for a non-denominational bible based church that doesn't focus on a few dogmatic ideas but rather teaches the entire gospel of Jesus Christ.
Ironically, that is the one issue that keep coming back to for entirely the opposite reason. You see, I first gave my heart to Jesus at age 5. On that very day, at that very moment, I received the gift of speaking in tongues. At that time, I didn't know what it was and my parents were not even involved in the charismatic movement at that time.
Now, there are those who say that speaking in tongues is just babble or even occult. But what happened to me at age 5 causes me to believe that speaking in tongues is real. I mean, we were attending a Congregational church at that time...it's not like I had heard someone else do it and was trying to imitate them. But when our family did start getting involved in charismania, I did hear lots and lots and lots of speaking in tongues with/without interpretation during services that just seemed odd, wrong, and downright fake to me, even as a young child.
So right now, I use my "tongues" only in private prayer. I never use it when praying for someone else and certainly not as some kind of prophetic uttering. So...I'm I "stifling the spirit" or "still engaged in the occult" for this?
As for your comment about people saying my faith is weak...I get that a lot because God has never healed me of my epilepsy. :sad: ( <-- sad smilie because people have the gall to tell me this, not because God has chosen to use my weakness so that he can be strong).
I found out just recently through the net, that not all charismatic churches are word of faith..the name it claim idea.
SpokenFor..I am nonchurched as you mentioned..though I was attending a church and a member for a number of years...long story short we just weren't welcomed there. I am a single mother and my son has ADHD and a learning disability...sitting in a church service was very difficult for him especially when the sermons are geared for adults not children...though they did have a short children's sermon he enjoy...the rest of the time though he struggled with alot of boredom. It finally came down to him hating church so much I was afraid it would transfer to hating God...:( Plus...many other issues too. So we stopped going...of course I prayed alot over this! It was a painful experience. Before this church we visited some others...single parents don't fit in well OR their doctrines were something I just couldn't swallow. Its not just charismatic churches that are possibly going in some bad directions..many churches are.
What to follow in deciding if ANYTHING is going on that shouldn't be..if its not in the bible and makes sense IN content...its not from God. period. I see too many picking single verses out of content then building a whole doctrine from it...that isn't right and its actually abusing God's Word. I wouldn't want to be those people on judgment day!
Pray about this...pray hard and let the Lord lead you in the right direction.
That I am doing. Thank you!
I'm sorry to hear your reason for leaving. ((Hugs)) to you and your son. I have a daughter with special needs, too. Although I am not a single mom, I attend church as one since my husband is not a Christian. I understand the looks you get when your child is not "behaving". I will be praying for you, too, that you will find a loving fellowship where you and your son can be included.
So, do you listen to sermons on youtube/sermonaudio for "church" or just read your Bible yourself ???
And tell me what's so wrong with that??
"If I speak in the tongues[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2013&version=31#fen-NIV-28651a)] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians%2013&version=31#fen-NIV-28653b)] but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
I've found many "charismatic churches" are more focused on these gifts than the very love that saved them and gave them life. That's not to say all charismatic churches are bad. I've just found one has to watch very carefully for what the leaders are teaching and its members are believing.
I really like the church I'm in now... it's a church of 'love' and 'compassion'. If it had one mission, it would be to reach those who are hurting. That right there to me is a church of the Lord. They don't hinder spiritual gifts - they encourage them IF God wills you to have them; which is quite a contrast from some churches that say "you MUST speak in tongues to be saved", blah blah blah. What a heresy!
I'm hoping all goes well for you, brother.
Jesus please help this friend of mine find a good church that displays your love magnified a thousand times over. Let him find encouragement and love, in Jesus' Name, Amen.
I'm a sister:D. Thanks for the prayer and your thoughts. Your church sounds great. So does your band, BTW. A little Dead Kennedy's influence?
wow, what a experience with GOd ..at age 5 speaking in tongues...amazing GOd we serve.
I go to a pentecoastal church..assmebly of God.
when you feel the spirit of the LORd move on you and through you..it is so life changing. It moved my faith to belive so strongly..and for a while I was addicted to wanting to feel him..
But, as GOd matured me ..cause there are dry seasons that come..I learned we can not go by these experiences..yes, being filled and renewed is such a vital part..for me it is..but knowing the truth and being set free because of it..and studying the word ..living it by faith..well, this is so vital also..
I know that makes no sense..sorry.
but, what I was intending on saying is this..
I am leaving my church also...the pastor is accepting homosexuals lifestyle and do what you want kind of preaching movement..
I want to be where word is being preached. the Truth. But not denying the power..know what I mean.
It is hard. But, I pray that GOd lead you to where you are suppose to be,....if it be there or somewhere else ..that you know that you know that is the will of God for you at this time in your life..
we must beware casue many false prophets are out there decieving many. we must rely on God and not lose hope in serving Christ wihtin a body of belivers because of a few evil doers..
I'm currently unchurched and feel I'm missing something vital. Unfortunately the churches round here are either 'dead', mixing it up with African traditional religions, Word of Faith, or downright not interested in someone who used to be a witch. So the past 6 years have been hard, particularly as my husband is very involved with Paganism (it's not a temptation for me - just irritating that the corpse of my old life is still visible). I hold myself accountable to online Christian friends, rely on God and feed myself spiritually as best I can with reading and audio sermons.
I've been begging God for years to tell me where He wants me and hearing complete silence; I've visited countless churches and been involved with several for a few months. I have an idea He was waiting for me to realise how much I need to be part of a body (not just doing it for the sake of obedience with my heart not in it), and the penny has dropped. Now it seems God is saying to me again to find a place in which I can serve, so I'm hunting further afield and looking to Him to guide me specifically.
I feel for you; I know what it's like to be rejected. I've had people refuse to even stand next to me to worship when they find out I used to be a witch, and a pastor tell me I'm not worth talking to for 6 months because I'll probably just leave. But I realise that's not typical of Assemblies of God across the board, just my local one.
As for leaving the entire movement, that's not something I would do personally because I believe in the correctness of the Pentecostal view - I'm just cautious of and testing the local expressions of it, particularly where it's been infested with WOF (which is just Christianised occultism) and other odd theology.
Can you meet with your church leaders and discuss your concerns?
Unfortunately, this is at the root of the problem in these churches and why I would choose to avoid them. I agree, it's an insult to you. And what's even worse is it's an insult to God. Who are pastors or members in a church to question the sovereignty of God and his plan? It's arrogant thinking and does nothing more than reduce God to a genie in a bottle if we think we are entitled to all our wishes every time we pray for something in the name of Jesus.
There is a wide variety of churches under the label "charismatic". If the church you are in is heading in a direction that God is not calling you to go, perhaps it is time for you to find another church. If it is doctrinal in nature, then it might be best to fully explore and study scripture to get settled in your beliefs. It will be rare to find a church where all people believe identically.
I didn't have time to respond to this before ...but I wanted to say I would be proud to stand next to you in church...:) I think you over came alot and people should realize that!
I have heard in the UK from daughter's post how tough it is to find a good solid bible based church there. I have chatted on IM with a young man over there too also seeking to find a good church...he says most are Spanish speaking Catholic churches and he doesn't speak Spanish and doesn't want to go to a Catholic church. He sends me links of churches he finds to see if they are biblically sound.
I do have hope that eventually I will find that good church around here...there are members on here that have wonderful churches...I envy them.
Yeah I know what you mean. I have some horror stories too ... 'vomiting in the Spirit', anyone? Being in a church so raucous and noisy that the police burst in, arrested a mugger who was trying to hide and dragged him out, and no-one noticed except the pastor.
Daughter and I will be visiting each other soon (did you know we're distantly related, as well as a lot of other really strange similarities?) so I'll visit her church and she can come along to whatever I find (have my eye on a non-denom fellowship to try). I'm listening to a lot of audio sermons by Mark Driscoll from Mars Hill Seattle, and I'd love to be in a place like that. I even dreamed I visited Mars Hill the other night.
I read part of that thread where you two were talking...:lol: I almost felt like I was ease dropping on a conversation...lol. But I think its great you know? Sometimes our truest brothers and sisters are the ones we find in Christ..;) I hope you two can be great friends...I really do! I know from what she's posted about things over there, its really rough right now and it would be great to have another Christian to lean on in these times. When you get a chance can you activate your PM system so I can PM you by the way? (private messager)...thanks.
Thank you for your post. The exact thing happened to me and I got out of there. The people there believed that anyone who spoke in tongues superior to anyone who didn't. It is a works theology.
Hope all is well for you, sis.
My heart goes out to you Bethany67... and without taking up a lot time with details, may I say I have had a significant chunk of my life affected by the charismatic movement? All I will say here is that I'm a Bible-believer now and that the contrast is overwhelming. (not speaking per se, of Pentecostalism). It is an entirely different life now.
Two things, then I'll be quiet (yeah, right).
I had polio when I was four and have been walking like a duck for 51 years. And the love and calling of God is unmistakably upon me...to his glory.
My favorite sound in all the Earth is the sound of children making noise in church.
Ravi - that was an incredible book. Thank you so much for posting the link - I've saved it and am going to reread it slowly. I think it's one of the most significant pieces of fiction I've read in a long time.
This must be the question of the day! I was just visiting with a friend on hotmail about this very thing.
I too got into the charismatic movement a few years after being born again. But just about Easter time I began to hear from God and being lead to a S. Baptist church. What I head has been messages to stay GOD CENTERED. Not too far too the left and not too far to right. I know I still believe in the gift of tongues and of laying on of hands.
But for me I was shown that I do not need a charismatic movement that puts more into 'other' things than it does seeking God alone and staying true to his word.
The S. Baptist hook up was a complete surprise to me. God works in such funny and amazing ways!
My daughter is taking theology classes and she has recently been hearing the same thing as I have. We had not discussed it until her visit in June. Actually God just took her mentor out of her life. This person is a very strong charismatic person. But she has been lead to not contact this person and to put more into HIM and less into the other.
What I have been hearing over the last couple of years is that God needs to raise up a church filled with those who believe strongly in HIM. Who will stay true to his word (no adding to or taking away from), who understand that God is 'spirit' and he gave us a spirit language to pray to Him through. And people who are not afraid of laying hands on the ill to heal them. People who will reach out to the non-believers and at least give them the message and people who use their time with small but effective ministries with individuals who are seeking the truth, etc. He wants people who will do what he asks them to do, when he asks them to do it, without delay. Love and Forgiveness. Those are the big ones he is looking for from those he is calling. He is calling them to assemble together with other like minded believers.
To assemble or not to is a 'big' question on these forums. But I believe there is plenty of scripture directing us to do so. I know it has afforded me opportunitites to further my personal ministry with others I meet who have problems and I facilate a comfort group with depression and anxiety. These ministries I give back to God and all the glory and honor is his.
Well I think that is about the jest of what I have heard. I pray that you find your way with God. It sounds like he is working on you too and showing you some things. Just listen and do as HE leads you to do.
Thank you all for your replies. I've been praying about this a lot this week. I have found a lot of peace with staying in my church right now. I'm still asking God to reveal Himself to me in regards to gifts, anointing, etc. I am remaining open to God moving in supernatural ways, while staying Christ-centered and testing the spirits.
This makes me laugh! Maybe we are just Christians, and that's all the label we need. We are all on the journey of seeking to get closer to God, and we're at all different places along the way.
I stay at a church until I feel the Lord call me out of it, or into another, but my ears are always open to hear what He wants me to do. You learn something in every phase of your growth.
I don't mean to sound like I'm making racial stereotypes here, but one thing I've noticed is, that black churches tend to be into the whole charismatic thing; dancing, shouting, singing, etc. On the other hand, white churches tend to take on a more mellow form of worship. There is singing, but it's of a calmer nature. There's no dancing, and no shouting, just passive participation.
I've visited a couple of churches that were over 90% black, which have all been very charismatic. There was an inter-racial church that I've attended for awhile, which was also very charismatic. The pastor was from Kenya, and his wife was white. I've attended a church with a Hispanic pastor. It was a racially mixed church, and charismatic too. Most of the predominantly white churches that I've gone to have been pretty mellow, and more message based.
I don't know that races of some of the people who have posted on here, or if it really matters, but these are the trends that I have found. Hopefully, I haven't offended anybody by posting my findings. God bless.
Well, sans the charasmatic part, I love black churches that worship with a little life. The church I go to, most of the congregants look like zombies during this time. Of course we're not allowed to go beyond boring in the music style....but we're workong on it.
Have you grown spiritually in this church? Does this church preach the word of God? Does it have a salvation message? If you answered yes to all three, then I must admonish you. David danced wildly (in his fruit of the looms)before the Lord his God. The upper room was full of those who spoke in tongues. Jesus' whole ministry was about healing (not only about, but it was one of the big three!). Prophecy? 2/3 of the bible is prophecy. Better learn how to read it!
I have always had a problem with the term "slain in the spirit". Just because of the definition of slain. It means to murder by a particularly brutal and violent means. That does not sound like the Holy Spirit to me. My pastor has started using the term "fall out under the power." And it is also biblical. Two bible hero's I can think of off the top of my head are Daniel and John.
Dan 8:18 Now as he was speaking with me, I fell into a deep sleep on the ground upon my face; and he touched me and changed my state.
And only I, Daniel, saw that vision: for the men that were with me did not see the vision; but a great fear fell upon them, and they fled and hid themselves. Therefore I was left alone and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me, for my strength was turned into dismay, and I retained no strength.
Some folks "fall out" because they get all emotional, letting their feelings take over. That is not what is really happening, as you see above. The power of God was so strong that Daniels body could retain none of its own strength. The men around him saw nothing but they sensed a presence so strong it scared them and they fled and hid themselves.
Paul is another who comes to mind. He was knocked off his horse.
My own story is this: I had been standing at the alter praying for forgiveness for an abortion. I had suffered the consequences of my actions for 5 years. As my pastor prayed with me, I heard Christ say to me (and this, to my knowledge, is the only time this happened to me), actually heard His voice say "That's the last time you are going to cry about that." And then I hit the floor on my tush. And I couldn't help laughing. I have had the power of God come on me a few times. But it has nothing to do with emotion. It is like someone who was electrocuted. Their body cannot take the power and they fall down. Only this isn't deadly lol.
I said all that to say this. A church must be spirit filled or there is no life in it. A church must also teach the word or it's nothing more than a touchy feely country club. Are you fed? Have you grown? Then do not let the enemy or your own fleshly discomfort cause you to leave your home. My mother did, and it was just like bar hopping, only it was church hopping. You don't do yourself, your family, or the church any favors by doing that. Hope this helps.
Hi Mary, While seated on my sofa, watching a golf game , I was slain in Gods Holy Spirit. Pure love, overwhelming Holy LOVE. I could not move and cried aloud, " Father" many times while weeping hard, as my heart was so full of Gods love. It took me about two hours to recover. I was slain in Gods Holiness. Just to help you out a bit here with this Mary. Also, I was alone at home and God was the last thing on my mind when Holy Spirit decided to pay me a visit..
I started attending a local fellowship and a few Bible studies. Here is what I have encountered. The church is based entirely on J. McAuthors teaching. And McAuthor is is often quoted during a sermon.
In a recent Bible study they said we should ( and they did ) VS 4, blot out in John 1: 5-9 specific to verse 4 " For an angel went down at a certain season into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the water stepped in was made whole of whatsoever disease he had. They blotted out "an Angel or an Angel of the Lord". because McAuthor apparently studied the original ancient manuscripts and feels the bible, all versions are wrong. Less his. And the people only imagined they were healed.
Are we to deny anything of Jesus ? Did Jesus deny anything of himself ?
Personally unless I am not dialed in, Luke 22:19 is simply fellowship. As I understand Luke .. Further if a person does feel that Luke 22:19 is a special event, perhaps this is the thread that's keeping that person hanging on to Jesus. Because they are struggling.
Further the church language is explicit : They can excommunicate any member or attendee. Very legalistic for a reformed church. Very strong Vatican ideology.
25 years ago I did read some books by him. But they left me with an uneasy feeling .
The nasb italicizes the word gate since the noun modified by the adjective probatikos ("of or pertaining to sheep") is not expressed in the text. The reference is most likely to the sheep gate mentioned in Nehemiah 3:1, 32; 12:39, located near the northeast corner of the city's wall not far from the temple. Bethesda is the Greek transliteration of a Hebrew or Aramaic word variously understood to mean "house of outpourings" or "house of mercy." In the covered porticoes near the pool, where they would receive some protection from the elements, lay a multitude of those who were sick, including the blind, lame, and withered (paralyzed). The pool was apparently fed by an intermittent spring (cf. v. 7), and people imagined that its waters had healing powers (ancient sources indicate that the water in the pool had a reddish tint from the minerals in it).
The earliest and most reliable Greek manuscripts omit the last phrase of verse 3 and all of verse 4. Others include the passage, but mark it as spurious. Despite its brevity, the omitted section contains more than half a dozen words or phrases foreign to John's writings—including three not found anywhere else in the New Testament. These facts, along with the absence of any specific mention of angels in the rest of the passage, indicate that the section was not part of John's original account. In the years after John wrote his gospel, scribes apparently added this material as a marginal note to present the popular explanation for the stirring of the water (v. 7). (The early church father Tertullian referred to the superstition of the angel stirring the water in the late second or early third century.) Later manuscripts incorporated the scribal glosses into the text itself.
Personally unless I am not dialed in, Luke 22:19 is simply fellowship. There is nothing "sacred" about Luke 22:19. Further if a person does feel that Luke 22:19 is a special event, perhaps this is the thread that's keeping that person hanging on to Jesus. Because they are struggling.
Two things I would like to share with you.
Therefore whoever shall eat this bread and drink this cup of the Lord unworthily shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let each man prove himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he that eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. For if we would examine ourselves, we should not be judged. But being judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. Therefore, my brothers, when ye come together to eat, wait for one another. And if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home; that ye not come together unto judgment. And I will set the rest in order when I come.
So there must be something sacred about it. Or eating it "unworthily" wouldn't make people sick!
All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
We have also the most sure word of the prophets, unto which ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts, understanding this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy did not come in times past by the will of man, but the holy men of God spoke being inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Meaning nothing in scripture should be blotted out based on one mans interpretation of the ancient language. Men are fallible. I fully believe that God, in His infinite wisdom, guided the translators of His word as steadily as He guided its writers. Hope this helps.
Thank you Mary. I am puzzled by For he that eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
Therefore, my brothers, when ye come together to eat, wait for one another. And if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home; that ye not come together unto judgment. And I will set the rest in order when I come.
So if a person brings judgement upon themselves , then Paul states" And if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home; that ye not come together unto judgment. So is it the entire assembly, or the person ? Also, "Eat at home" throws me. Or is the Scripture stating, wait for your brother, restore him, then come together ?
I never feel worthy of Gods salvation and love. And I know I am a sinner. Yes, I look within and note my sins. And confess them to the Father. And earnestly try and at times succeed at overcoming sin. But should my sins forbid me from partaking in the bread and wine of remembrance? I don't feel so. I constantly worry I am failing God. This is not living the victorious life. I once new that life when I was an infant in Jesus. Living victoriously in our Lord, Jesus. A long time ago.
Now to blotting out of Scripture, yes, that put me on extreme alert. There are other issues I did not mention that are also very concerning. I have not returned to the church. Yet I feel so sorrowful for the people there.
I am with heartfelt thanks, glad you replied.
I used to call myself a Pentecactist (Pentecostal, catholic. baptist) and now just Christian. I have left the church/denominational scene for the more intimate Bible study/small group setting. I have found I can have "church" almost anywhere and anytime when I am open to people and the Spirit. I always ask people why they are in church? Is it for themselves or God? If they answer for God, I ask them why God needs a building? Seek Him and all else takes care of itself.
Amen Curt TN.. Truth. " Seek Him and all else takes care of itself." now my heart has better encouragement.
1) If you are saved and seeking the face of God and walking with Jesus, you have nothing to fear from the communion table. Just remember what God and Christ have done for you and reverence His body and blood.
3) I encourage everyone to conduct a detailed study of the scriptures on the subject of communion. Read 1 Cor, the Gospels and especially John chapter 6. We tend to see communion based on the denomination we were brought up in but we need to have a view based on what God has told us. Some hints, a symbolic gesture cannot cause sickness or damnation, Jesus said "This IS my body and blood" not this represents my body and blood. He also said "unless you eat my body and drink my blood you have no life in you". This is a very important topic that has a lot to do with your relationship with our Lord.
Curt, It was at the church Bible study that they themselves, blotted out-scribbled out the Scripture.
... And if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home; that ye not come together unto judgment. So is it the entire assembly, or the person?
It's referring to anyone within the congregation.
Also, "Eat at home" throws me. Or is the Scripture stating, wait for your brother, restore him, then come together?
In regards to the Lord's Supper as the context Paul is talking about, They were still coming together as a group to celebrate the Lord's supper as a congregation. It is generally thought that it was a full meal possibly along the lines of the Passover feast or Seder as celebrated by Jesus the night He was betrayed.
The problem was that some were not waiting for everyone to arrive before partaking of the meal and when the late comers arrived nothing was left except wine which if that is all you are consuming then the effects of the beverage would certainly reveal itself in an unchristian manner. The admonition from Paul is that if you will be too hungry to wait for all to arrive then have a bite to eat at home prior to arriving to take the edge off of your hunger.
So all that would attend this meal would be able to share all things both meat and the wine (in moderation) with the meal.
By not waiting they were despising their brothers for whom Paul also admonishes us (Phil 2:1-4) to consider each other as more important than ourselves. Which here they were thinking only of themselves and their own bellies.
Amen Old Man. That hit my heart with Holy Spirit agreeing.
I am Charismatic with a Pentecostal flare. I love fundamental Charismatic doctrine. The problem is there are now a bunch of nut job preachers and nut job churches that fall under the "Charismatic" umbrella. My advice would be find a Biblically sound Charismatic church.
I now just realized I responded to a seven year old question. Oh well.
That would be nice. Real nice. Why are so many churches so messed up ? What happened? Or is this a common occurrence since Jesus ministry? Pertaining to the corner church. I had fellowship for about 20 years with the same 3 friends. But it was edifying. Every time I go to the corner church it is a mess.
Reynolds, not everyone is astute with Scripture, or are not in the same place maturely with Christ, as others. Your supposed to help. If able.
Wow! Did not grasp that. What arrogance. That would deter me also.
It has deterred me. I am considering taking the issue before the Pastor just to get his take on this.
It is not about not trying to be helpful. I responded to a post so old the O.P. will probably never see my answer.
It's all good. Thank You.
You can find good things and bad things in almost any group of people. Some things that were nice about the Charismatic and Pentecostal churches I used to go to were the sense of togetherness in mission and care for each other, the sense that we were discovering God there, prayer for and from others, and, of course, the praise and music, and allowing God to touch my heart. However, as I have discovered God more (at least it seems this way to me), I found that I really didn't agree with a number of doctrines and beliefs in those groups. I would not say that attending the 'churches' was not useful for the time I was there, but only that I have grown to a more stable place in Christ. The Bible records that congregations fall away from the true gospel and gives the following advice: "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins" (Rev 18:4) Pentecostal and charismatic churches have a lot of surface ideas about Bible passages that I see as being more parable style wording relating to salvation. Tithing is looked at this way, for example. Further, the notion of speaking in tongues is grossly misunderstood in my opinion. When the Bible uses the word 'tongue' it means Spanish or English or whatever language is generally spoken by those using and listening, not babbling. The whole concept relates to sharing the gospel. If you are an English speaker and you become born again, you then speak in NEW tongues, meaning you share the gospel in English from your brand NEW spirit. The things you say no longer come from the OLD spirit, but you still speak English. When the Bible says people 'prophesy' it means that they share the gospel and the listeners understand the gospel and receive it. That is why the Bible says we prefer to prophesy (in the church, in other words among true believers) than to speak a lot of words that aren't understood or received. Paul would rather have one person hear the gospel and receive it (that is what is meant by prophesy), than speak a whole bunch of the gospel but not have it received. When someone shares the gospel and it is not received or understood, it is called 'speaking in an unknown tongue'. In that case, only the speaker who is sharing the gospel is edified, and the listeners are unconverted. We pray in that case for interpretation, in other words for the unconverted to have the Lord convert them to understanding the gospel. The fact that interpretation is needed is because the listeners are not yet converted, and not because there is a special babbling language that sounds like its from a different planet or claims to be from heaven. Tongue means language like English or Spanish or Chinese or whatever.
Personally, charismatic and Pentecostal churches are not my style, so I know very little about them, and so I don't feel qualified in the least to address that particular. What I do know is that a person had better know the bible very well and pay attention to any church they attend as to whether they are of God or not.
Someone on the board, some years back, posted a link of a video of a preacher who was pretty well known in some circles back then, and in the service the people were laughing hysterically and acting drunk and falling out of their chairs and the preacher was acting drunk and was claiming this was of God and he based it on Acts chapter two.
Not a single one of those people knew the bible well enough to understand this guy was telling them a lie, and a very dangerous lie it was and was literally twisting things around. In fact, he hid the truth from them so he could present the lie and call it truth. I found it disgusting.
Know your bible well enough to know the truth, and whatever church you do attend, make certain they speak truth.
That would be nice. Real nice. Why are so many churches so messed up ? What happened? Or is this a common occurrence since Jesus ministry? Pertaining to the corner church. I had fellowship for about 20 years with the same 3 friends. But it was edifying. Every time I go to the corner church it is a mess.It is exactly as Reynolds said, find a Biblically sound church.
Look at it this way, the nuttiness we have today with some charismatic churches, they are "exactly" as the Corinthian church was back in the day when Paul had to write to them and FIX them. But we have to understand this as well, as "saints", God did still move amongst them. I have a part of my signature inspired by what I study about the Corinthian church and while they were all nuts while they acted like devils in all the sinning that they continued to do, God was still God amongst them and they MOVED in the power of the Holy Spirit despite their sin and choosing to act like devils. "Devils" being a term I choose to use in describing them, as they held to culture, traditions, and the flesh while they continued to mix all this with being "saints".
Anyway... personally, I don't feel that ANY Christian can "leave" the charismatic portion of their relationship with God. To do so is to DENY the power of God. What a Christian can do is leave a church that acts like devils as the Corinthians did, where a church shows no signs of correcting themselves or no desire to be corrected as the Corinthians were corrected.
Churches are messed up due to a lack of or incorrect discipleship!
Charismatic... this side of the Body of Christ is happening, God is God, He IS acting in power through His Body and as unlikely as it seems, even those nutty Corinthian like churches even today, God continues to be God and despite the lack of proper discipleship, His power still manifests as the "gifts of the Holy Spirit" given to members of such churches... STILL work today! Why do they still work? Because it's not "them." It's not even about them... it's God and all about God.
Someday, such churches may become properly discipled... but then, they will also begin to produce the fruit of the Holy Spirit and then when the charismatic side of their relationship in Christ manifests, it will be in LOVE (1 Cor 13) and THEN, no craziness as charismatic moves happen.
The entire assembly should take it upon themselves to eat in their own homes to satisfy their belly. The communion was never meant as physical nourishment. It is a spiritual thing, and must be done as all worship is done. In spirit and in truth. Paul is saying that the communion is not a free meal and shouldn't be done just because someone is hungry.
You do fail God. Every day in fact. So you can stop worrying. Living a victorious life has more to do with Christs victory than your own. So you can live a victorious life in spite of the fact that you fall on your tush daily. It isn't how many times you fall that matters. It is how many times you get back up. Communion is our way of remembering what Christ did for us. Remember that he did it "while we were yet sinners."
Here's an analogy I feel may just help you. A trapeze artist starts his or her training by learning how to fall. They get their mind and body used to falling. Thereby getting their mind and body used to the fact that there is a net beneath them. Amazingly, once they have done this, they fall less and less. Till one day, they barely fall at all. Why? Because their mind and bodies are no longer focused on falling. In their mind there is something there to catch them should they fall. The net.
Your net is 1 John 1:9. This net should get your mind and heart used to its being there. Thereby refocusing you on your walk with Christ, instead of your tendency to fall. Thereby causing you to fall less and less as time goes by. Remember also, its not your mind or your body that has been reborn. It is your spirit. Your mind and body must be subdued and renewed daily. Your spirit communes with the Holy Spirit. So follow your spirits leading.
My pastor says if you are too "spirit" oriented you will blow up. If you are too word oriented (legalistic) you will dry up. God is the God of peace and order. Yes and even balance. God tells us through Solomon, "lean not on your own understanding." And "in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He will direct your paths." If I wrote a book, and someone wanted to delve deeper into the meaning of the book. Who would be the best person to speak with on the subject of the meaning in the book?
Because I wrote it. It came from my heart and from my mind. Paul says who knows better the thoughts and intents of a man better than the spirit of that man? Likewise you cannot ever go wrong following the Holy Spirit, because He is God's Spirit. Thus He knows the deep thoughts and ways of God. I feel it should be said that nine times out of ten, the Holy Spirit will show you this through the word of God. Feel free to ask anything else you need to ask.
They're so messed up because they strayed into the touchy feely arena. They are like crack addicts, trying to get another high. That's not what God meant the times of refreshing to be. As usual, people took it too far. And some of those gatherings are outright satanic if you ask me. There's nothing holy about those meetings. There are times my church gets "drunk" and giggly. We even run. But there are times for that. They are so refreshing and so uplifting. But they are seasons. It wasn't meant for every time you walk through the door. We go to church to get fed spiritually. For that we need a pastor who rightly divides the word of truth. Then we get fed.
I remain adamant that all the gifts noted in the N.T. are definatley as present as they were 2000 years ago. It is man who turned off the switch to the gifts. Well then don't expect what you don't believe. Common Holy sense.
We are still the early church, still being formed to our Lords image. Nothing has changed except some believe we have " matured" past the gifts. No we have not. We need every bit of what Jesus gifted the early church with now, as then. Again, we are still same the church.
It is the state of our heart, our beliefs that hinder God in gifting us with every gift in the N.T. And such anointing's come at a cost. Are we truly seeking to crucify our flesh so that Jesus can do the same miracles through us as HE did 2000 years ago ? Because the gifts glorify God. And that is the reason we have our being.
Paul strongly encourages the church to seek the gifts. Especially prophecy.
We are still the early church, still be formed to our Lords image. Nothing has changed except some believe we have " matured" past the gifts. No we have not. We need every bit of what Jesus gifted the early church with now, as then. Again, we are still same the church.
Amen Mary. There is nothing wrong about Holy charisma. It's knowing, by pure devotion to Jesus, when the Holy Spirit is caressing us into HIS being in a special way. Lining up with Scripture of course.
I am growing so much through this ministry. Thank You Mary.
It is exactly as Reynolds said, find a Biblically sound church.
Bullseye Slug !! Especially what I highlighted.
Lies are so easily detectable if Christians would devote themselves to heartfelt intimacy to Jesus. The Holy Spirit will alert us to lies. And read what Jesus is speaking to us in Scriptures. And also Holy Spirit will also speak to us personally. Because we have a personal relationship with Jesus.
God is a good God.
Absolutely true and absolutely a must. I believe the closer our walk with Christ, the more we will hear the Holy Spirit speak .
Have you ever read the second and third chapters of Revelation?? Messed up churches didn't begin in the 20th century :)Ha, good point!!
Christ is not the priority. Our own desires, visions, wants, opinions, theologies, doctrines, etc. become more important than Christ or each other.
The example Paul gives of this type of heart attitude is Jesus (verses 5-8). Jesus considered us to be more important than His life and the suffering He would endure. If we have this attitude that each other is more important than ourselves then unity is the result. When we look to the needs of others and not just our own then the body is built up together serving the Lord together with one heart.
John wrote in one of his letters that if one does not love his brother who he can see then he cannot love God who he does not see.
We begin to love our brothers (and sisters) when we begin to consider them to be more important than ourselves Phil 2:3.
And you don't have to wait until Revelation. Just work through the epistles.
The Corinthians were arguing over which pastor was best, had a guy sleeping with his step mother, suing each other, abusing spiritual gifts, getting drunk, etc.
The Galatian churches (plural) were abandoning the true gospel for a false gospel of legalism.
The Philippians had two prominent women (Euodia & Syntyche) who had such a problem getting along and that the elders hadn't resolved that Paul had to call on a specific individual to resolve the problem.
The Colossians had gotten involved with mysticism and asceticism.
The Thessalonians thought they missed the second coming. They had members who quit work and became idle, disruptive busybodies.
Timothy was a timid pastor who apparently let older members take advantage of his youthfulness and looked down on him.
The Cretans that Titus was pastoring over were liars, evil brutes and lazy gluttons.
The recipients of the Hebrews letter were contemplating a backslide into Judaism.
Every church has problems. It goes back to when the apostles walked the earth.
Find the church with the best teaching you can find and work with it. The church isn't our model of perfection. Join the best church you can find. Submit to its leadership. Help it with your gifts.
Thanks for heads up ChangedbyHIM. After I made the post I recalled the admonishments given to the Churches at Cornith, Thessalonica and Ephesus.
Yes. God is so good.
I agree. Pauls's Epistles deal with some messed up churches as well. Having said that, I am getting quite tired of dealing with messed up churches. It is the same old things over and over and over and over; just different faces in different places.
Paul tells us to not allow ourselves to get weary in doing good. I agree that is easier said than done. But when it is done, we are rewarded greatly in Heaven. Just because a person is saved doesn't mean every aspect of that person is saved. It is our spirits who are born again. We must continually subdue our bodies, and renew our minds. Why? Because they are unregenerated. Thus we are left with Paul's epic battle. The spirit wants one thing and the flesh another. And they are constantly at war. This is our bane. Understanding that helps keep the weariness away. Folks are like sheep. They need shepherds. Perhaps that is what you are called to do. It is time to be about your Fathers business. Remember Jesus had to deal with the colossus of all messed up churches. So you are in excellent company.
I've been involved in Pentecostal and charismatic fellowships throughout my personal relationship with Jesus, and I can understand you're reluctantly or reservation to follow their vision of fellowship practices.
If the fellowship is not meeting your needs and you feel they are different to your own or heading in a different direction that does not support your belief system, then discuss your concerns with your leadership and explain your position and perspective in relation to their vision and the direction they are heading.
This way you can give the leadership feedback and your honest comments to help them understand your position and how this is affecting your membership.
Both parties can then clarify their motives and objectives to help each other understand there points of view and make any adjustments that will benefit the interests of both parties.
If an agreement cannot be reached you will have enough information to help you make a decision to stay there or move on.
Whatever you decide is up to you, but pray to your heavenly Father and ask him for his guidance and help because these are the perfect times and seasons when we need to seek ask and knock.
I don't think we get a choice there. It would be like looking at my dad and saying, "I'm quite tired of dealing with your messed up wife."
I don't think we get a choice there. It would be like looking at my dad and saying, "I'm quite tired of dealing with your messed up wife."I like how you put this.


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War On Free Speech: Brooklyn Politicians Call On NYPD To "Investigate" Man For Flag Inside His Home
Eric StrikerJan 4, 2021 | 600 words 1,526
swastikaflag.png
Nosey Jewish groups and yarmulke-wearing politicians are demanding the NYPD take action after looking into a Brooklyn man's apartment and spotting a Swastika banner hanging from his wall.
Councilman Mark Treyger, a Ukrainian-Jew who represents South Brooklyn, requested a police investigation into the man engaging in First Amendment activity in his own home. The NYPD informed him that no crime was being committed, and in response, Treyger has decided to try and whip up hysteria in his community even after the man in the apartment in question acquiesced to his demands to take the flag down.
Treyger's response is one of many instances of the First Amendment being rapidly whittled down in American life, particularly in New York.
Last month New York Governor Andrew Cuomo signed a law banning the display or sale of Confederate flags, Swastikas and "other symbols of hate" on public property. In practice, this means a protest group cannot legally display these symbols nor can they be sold by street vendors. Under the poorly thought out piece of legislation, no exemptions are made for an individual wearing a t-shirt with a Confederate flag or Swastika walking on the streets of New York, who in theory could potentially be charged with a crime.
Governor Cuomo and others admit that the ban is a flagrant violation of the First Amendment, but don't seem to care. The transition of the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) into an exclusively left-wing activist organization that will not defend the rights of political dissidents has created a legal vacuum that NGOs, Jewish activists and politicians have capitalized on to shut down free speech.
The Supreme Court ruling in Smith v. Collin (1978) makes it clear that Americans have a right to display flags and engage in political speech even when the content offends Jews.
The lack of respect for American values in the name of protecting feelings also goes one way. The Israeli flag is seen as a symbol of hate, racism and genocide by numerous classes of people, yet the right to display it is not being questioned. Enrique Tarrio of the Proud Boys was arrested in Washington DC earlier today over a previous incident where a group of men expressed their offense over a flag representing the highly polarizing Black Lives Matter movement.
Ultimately, without a new legal organization that fights in the courts to consistently defend political and artistic speech, the government is free to push through hate speech legislation, unimpeded.

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Cette page dresse une liste de personnalités nées au cours de l'année 2014 présentée dans l'ordre chronologique.
La liste des personnes référencées dans Wikipédia est disponible dans la page de la Catégorie: Naissance en 2014.

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