Cradle Seed Ventures (CSV) is the venture capital arm of Malaysia's premier early stage financier and influencer, Cradle Fund Sdn Bhd.
CSV manages an early stage venture fund based out of Malaysia and is always on the lookout for start-ups with high growth potential, led by passionate founders with high levels of enthusiasm.
CSV is delighted to be part of this new dawn of excitement in the start-up world, both in Malaysia and globally.
CSV mandated investments will be in the technology sector with specific focus on selected verticals. CSV has the added strength of being able to leverage on Cradle's long experience in supporting early stage start-ups, understanding the funding and operational needs of a start-up and also be a supportive partner when they scale in the Malaysian market and to foreign shores.
Who is Cradle Seed Ventures (CSV)?
CSV manages the Cradle Seed Ventures Fund 1, a fund targeted as a partnership between the public and private sectors. CSV's initial RM40 million fund at launch is from the Ministry of Finance, Malaysia, and injected via Cradle Fund Sdn Bhd.
CSV plans to increase the fund in the future by forging strategic partnerships with various private and public sector investors in Malaysia and the region.
CSV is a subsidiary of Cradle Fund Sdn Bhd, an early stage financier and influencer of the Malaysian technology start-up ecosystem. For more than a decade, Cradle has supported over 700 technology start-ups some of which have gone to become regional and global names like MyTeksi (known as GrabTaxi in the greater ASEAN region), iMoney and Piktochart. Not many have a long understanding and hands-on experience in the start up eco-system in Malaysia as Cradle.
CSV is managed by a team with experience in venture investments and have specific interests in start-ups and are in tune with their issues and needs and most importantly, their potential.
What is the investment size and how will it be disbursed?
CSV targets investments of between US$300,000 and US$1 million per company. Larger amounts may be considered depending on requirements and opportunities.
Depending on structure and terms to be negotiated, CSV may co-invest with other investors as and when the need arises. This allows CSV to better manage, add value and and share the risk, on top of leveraging on each other's network and expertise.
The investments are directly injected into the company for equity participation and is to be disbursed based on milestones that would have been pre-agreed.
How is CSV different from existing Cradle funding facilities?
CSV is the first venture fund to be launched by Cradle and will focus mainly on pre Series A and Series A companies onwards.
Cradle still continues to provide grants and in some cases, equity funding, to companies at the earlier seed stages. By extension, CSV targets to invest in a more advanced stage companies at which is larger than the prospects for Cradle recipients.
What type of businesses will CSV fund?
Which stages of companies will CSV fund?
Pre-Series A: Companies at early stages of commercialisation that may be slightly more advanced than a seed stage company and/or that require more funding than a seed company. Typical investment size may be equivalent to US$300,000 to US$500,000 with post money valuation equivalent to US$1 million to US$2.5 million.
Series A: Companies which are at commercialization stage which clear market identification and for early growth. Typical total investment size from the equivalent of US$500,000 onwards to US$3 million with post money valuation equivalent to US$2 million to US$10 million.
Series B onwards: Companies which are invested for growth and expansion. However, investments in Series B onwards will only be made based on requirements and/ or opportunities. Typical total investment size from the equivalent of US$3 million onwards with post money valuation equivalent to US$10 million onwards. CSV will co-invest with others as and when the need arises.
How much equity will CSV take in our investment?
CSV invests via equity participation, whereby it will take minority stakes at reasonable valuations in the companies.
Why is CSV taking equity in my company where as it has never been a condition with Cradle before?
CSV manages a venture capital fund with a primary objective and responsibility of providing returns on investment to its investors.
Meanwhile, Cradle is an agency under the Ministry of Finance which provides grants to early stage Malaysian technology start-ups with revolutionary ideas that have the potential to be successful technology entrepreneurs.
CSV actively monitors and tracks developments of the portfolio companies ranging from operational, business development, reporting and governance, finance/ accounting, and human capital; on top of leveraging on each others' network.
Besides the investment, how else can CSV help develop my start-up business?
CSV is very much aware of the need to value-add and assist the target companies to grow. CSV invests with a clear objective of being a partner to our portfolio companies and we intend to share our knowledge, expertise, experience and network with the investees.
CSV actively monitors and tracks developments of the portfolio companies ranging from operational, business development, reporting and governance, finance/ accounting and human capital, on top of leveraging on each others' their network.


Hefei Olympic Sports Center Stadium | Anhui Jiufang F.C. Stadium.
Hefei Olympic Sports Center Stadium Capacity and Stadium Guide.
Hefei Olympic Sports Center Stadium is a football stadium located in the city/town of Hefei in China, Asia. Hefei Olympic Sports Center Stadium has a maximum stadium capacity of 60000 spectators. Anhui Jiufang F.C. are the main occupants of the stadium. Anhui Jiufang F.C. play their domestic home football fixtures at Hefei Olympic Sports Center Stadium.


Renaissance Brome Lake published in 2013 a comprehensive teaching guide to create awareness among school children, of the importance of becoming involved in protecting the aquatic ecosystems on our territory. Entitled Eau delà de l'eau in French (Water, water everywhere ) this guide was made possible by the support of Ville de Lac-Brome and the TD Friends of the Environment Foundation. It is especially meant for the teachers and students in the 3rd grade at St-Édouard and Knowlton Academy in Ville de Lac-Brome.
Water, water everywhere paints an overall picture of the environmental problems we face and encourages the students to enter the fascinating universe of the lakes and water courses which are found throughout our territory and elsewhere. This teaching guide is a well-documented education tool which offers many original activities to initiate our local youngsters into environmental issues. It has been inspired by some of the pedagogical approaches taken by the Université du Québec à Montréal as part of its « Éducation relative à l'environnement (ERE) » program.
Several themes are covered: discovering Brome Lake, wetlands, a complete look at a watershed, widespread sources of pollution, the importance of shoreline buffer zones and the responsibility of each individual for improving the quality of our environment. For each theme, a variety of activities are suggested to allow exchanges to take place between the students and promote well-rounded learning about both the challenges and possible solutions.
Renaissance Brome Lake is convinced that a teaching guide such as Water, water everywhere will be an important way for our youth to become more aware of the importance of developing new lifestyle habits, which are more respectful of the environment and stimulate their interest and involvement in the future.


If you live in Charlottesville, you know that UVA is nothing to write home about and the football spirit is lacking. As a Husker fan and Alumni living here I am in need of some fellow Nebraskans who have the same kind of passion for Football!
You need to be a member of Husker Fans in Charlottesville to add comments!


Trainers and sneakers are a multi billion dollar industry. There are so many people out there who collect so many trainers and sneakers. There are some great brands out there that really make some great pairs that last a long time. You can also get some trainers that look good, cost a lot but disappoint you later on. These 12 trainers and sneakers we have pick will not let you down and some of them should be your essentials.
These 'Jack Purcell' sneakers are one of Converse's original designs and are differentiated by the unmistakable royal-blue 'smiles' embedded at the front of the white soles. Made from grey two-ply canvas, this latest pair is built on Ortholite footbeds that are embedded with Nike Zoom Air Technology for ultra-supportive cushioning and long-lasting comfort. Converse are a great pair of trainers and you can get many colours. There are leather options available that are also very nice.
ASICS are a great pair of trainers that are known for being very comfortable. Asics have collaborated with Japanese label monkey time to rework its iconic 'Gel-Lyte' trainers. These retro runners are constructed from panels of suede and smooth leather in classic black for a smarter appearance, making them suitable for a variety of occasions. They have spongy neoprene linings for comfort and are set on gripped rubber soles elevated with a marble-effect pattern at the heel that nods to a 'Light and Shadows' theme.
These are well built English trainers that are very comfortable. These New Balance's '990' trainers are built using highly responsive ABZORB cushioning, as well as ENCAP technology to provide exceptional support. You'll find the trainer works particularly well with with slim fit jeans or some joggers.
Nike – King of Trainers and sneakers. Nike's 'Match Classic' sneakers are a modern revision of '70s tennis shoes. The uppers are made from brushed 'hairy' suede, a material that gives the black hue tonal and textural variation, and they're set on sturdy rubber soles. Discreetly embroidered swooshes and a minimalist profile make them a hit with smarter trousers. They are a good looking pair of sneakers.
Moncler is a leader in technical outerwear like jackets, and designs its sneakers with the same commitment to performance and durability. This 'Horace' pair has been made in Italy from panels of navy suede and white mesh for breathability. Elasticated trims at the sides boost support and flexibility, as well as imparting an undeniably sporty feel. Moncler seem to have done a good job.
Lanvin's sneakers give the classic street style shoe a more sophisticated guise. This pair is constructed from soft beige suede and detailed with smooth leather cap-toes to accentuate the sleek profile. The gripped rubber soles ensure traction with every step. They are a luxurious pair of sneakers that will really add some colour to your wardrobe.
There is just something very nice about this pair of sneakers. Valentino's sneakers have attained near-cult status and the house's dynamic colourways rarely disappoint. This pair of the brand's classic sports shoe has been made in Italy from breathable black mesh and trimmed with grey suede and burgundy leather. The studded rubber heel guards are a signature and speak to the brand's attention to detail. Beautiful aren't they.
We told you Nike were the king of trainers and sneakers. These Nike 'Air Odyssey LX' sneakers are crafted from slick black leather and detailed with matching wool panels, giving the signature athletic style a distinctive update. The rubber soles are heavily cushioned for an unbeatable tread, while gum inserts enhance traction on wet terrain. Wear this all-round pair with anything from chinos to sweatpants.
Hugo Boss are a well know designer brand that make some great apparel. These Boss Green trainers feature a breathable mesh upper, Lace-up design, Branded tongue and cuff and are padded to provide that extra comfort. It has a signature Hugo Boss logo to the side, features a slim sole and can be worn with many items of clothing.
Saint Laurent brings a considered touch to streetwear with these black high-top sneakers. This sleek athletic style has contrast red panels for a welcome hit of colour and cushioned rubber soles to ensure a comfortable step. They have been crafted in Italy from fine leather to the brand's exacting standards. These sneakers will definitely turn heads with that sharp red. Try them with joggers or some jeans.
These a gorgeous pair sneakers. Maison Margiela's signature 'Replica' sneakers are modelled on an original archived design from the '70s. This latest iteration has muted navy suede and leather uppers stitched to tan rubber soles, which give them an authentically retro look. The blue sitting on the beige really bring these trainers to life and they can also bring your look to life. Match them with jeans and a t-shirt for a really cool look.
These Common Projects Trainers should be a staple in your collection. They are well built, designed and look really good. They have a minimalist design with a superior construction. The white version is perfect for creating crisp city-smart looks and can be worn with denim jeans and just about anything else. Fans return to Common Projects for the brand's clean, minimalist style and superior construction, both of which are demonstrated by the black leather 'Original Achilles' sneakers. The design is one of the label's most popular, and has no detailing, save for the sleek signature golden stamp on the heels. They are a great pair that are a must have.


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PC M&P 40 with Ported Barrel Review: 'Is .40 the new 9?'
One of my favorite benefits of being a woman who writes about guns is that I get to review guns, and I choose guns that I think women will like. So, when Smith & Wesson announced it had developed a Performance Center (PC) M&P 40 with a ported barrel, I wanted to get that gun out to the range. However, there is a problem. It's a .40. I like .40 caliber guns, yet I wondered, "Could a ported .40 be the new 9mm?" and "Have women been brainwashed by the industry to think that any .40 is too heavy or bulky to carry?"
Sponsored by Liberty Safe
Handguns in .40 caliber seem to take the back seat to slim, sexy 9mms.
The backstory of the .40 S&W
Nowadays, we use the name "9mm" to refer to a handgun and submachine gun cartridge used nearly universally by military and police forces. According to Bussard's Ammo Encyclopedia, 5th Edition, the cartridge's proper name is the 9x19mm Luger cartridge, but it is also called the 9x19mm, the 9 x 19mm, the 9mm Luger, the 9mm NATO, the 9x19mm 7N21, the 9mm Parabellum, the 9x19mm Parabellum, the 9mm Para, and lately simply the 9mm. Ever heard the word, Parabellum? It is Latin and means "for war," and the 9mm was built for war use; in fact, the German Navy adopted it first, in 1904. According to the Ammo Encyclopedia, this cartridge is now the most popular handgun cartridge in the world.
The .40 S&W came on the heels of failures of 9mm and .38 SPL caliber handgun ammunition to produce immediately lethal stops of criminals in the field. The most infamous is the firefight between 8 FBI agents and 2 bank robbers in Miami, Florida, on April 11, 1986, that resulted in the deaths of 2 agents and both robbers, and the serious injury of 5 agents. According to forensic analysis after the Miami firefight (see Forensic Analysis of the April 11, 1986, FBI Firefight by Dr. W. French Anderson), the shooting accuracy of the FBI agents was not at fault. The robbers continued to fight, killing 2 agents, after receiving non-survivable wounds. The robbers were hit, one six times and one 12 times, by Agents' shots from 9mm, .38 SPL +P, and 12-gauge shotgun 00 buckshot ammunition.
The FBI took the lead in trying to find or develop a handgun and ammunition system that would give agents better immediate killing performance than the combinations they carried at the time. A portion of this process resulted in the creation of the .40 S&W and handguns to fire it. The new handgun and cartridge system is called the .40 S&W because Smith & Wesson developed the system; Winchester worked with S&W to design the cartridge. It was intended to match the FBI's initial choice, a reduced-velocity 10mm Auto cartridge.
The .40 S&W is pretty much a 10mm Auto short, just like the .380 ACP is a 9mm short. By short, we're talking about the .40 ammunition case, as it has nearly identical overall dimensions as the 10mm Auto but is a little more than one tenth of an inch shorter. The .40's specified maximum length is also slightly shorter than the 9mm's. As such, handgun designs for the 9mm can easily be adapted to .40, since the maximum chamber pressures are also the same for each cartridge. Shooters with smaller hands who have difficulty with a 10mm Auto or a .45 ACP can usually handle a .40 as well as they can a 9mm; someone who can successfully grip a high-capacity 9mm handgun can also grip a high-capacity .40 S&W.
In addition to a slightly larger bullet diameter, the advantages of the .40 S&W over the 9mm include greater muzzle energy because the .40 can launch heavier bullets at the same muzzle velocity as lighter bullets from the 9mm cartridge, and the .40 can fire heavier bullets than the 9.
Okay, if the .40 is better, why the switch back to 9s?
Ammo manufacturers claim that with their new projectile designs, 9mm ammunition is just as effective as .40, so there's no reason to use .40 with its sharper recoil. In addition, since active military conflicts are winding down, there is a lot of surplus 9mm ammo from which to choose (this doesn't apply to the .40, since it was not adopted by military services) for training. Also, some trainers say it's easier to train someone with a 9mm than a .40, because of the 9mm's lower perceived recoil. Lastly, a .40 handgun will be a tad heavier than similar 9mm, and generally won't hold as many rounds in its magazines.
I wonder what will happen when the ammo companies apply the same new wondernine bullet technology to the .40 S&W (wait for it; it's bound to happen).
But, is a .40 for you?
You may decide to look at a gun such as the Smith & Wesson PC M&P because it has been built for competition shooting, and, for self-defense. In the winter, where I live in the Ozarks, I will carry a gun such as this in a holster and train with it – indoors and outdoors – for carry purposes.
The ports, 2 in the barrel and 3 on each side of the top of the slide near the muzzle, reduce the muzzle flip on this gun. This somewhat eliminates the argument that a 9mm will beat a .40 any day in the felt recoil department. Now, a ported 9 will beat a ported 40, but that's another test. In fact, another gun publication called this model a "flat shooter," and that is a supreme compliment in the gun world.
The stainless-steel slide has 7 grooves cut at the back end, to help you grab the slide better. There is also a bilateral slide stop.
The more I shoot, the more I am becoming a total trigger snob, and I like the PC M&P's crisp, 2-stage trigger. Smith & Wesson describes it as "enhanced," and began building guns with smoother triggers and definable resets into its M&P line back in 2015.
Another reason I like this gun is its sights – HI VIZ Fiber Optic sights with orange dots at the back and apple green on the front.
S&W builds it with stainless steel in the chassis and barrel and high-strength polymer in its frame. It includes easily changeable grip inserts in small, medium and large sizes. The pistol also comes with a Picatinny-style rail in front of the trigger guard, for aftermarket lights or lasers. The slide has been fashioned to accept Trijicon, RMR, Leupold, Delta Point, Jpoint, Doctor, C-More STS and Insight® MRDS optics.
It also comes with 2 magazines that hold 15 rounds each; it's somewhat unusual nowadays to get a new gun that includes more than one magazine.
Why will women like this gun?
I asked a female friend and a female family member to try this gun. Each liked it and could run the slide easily. Neither of these women has extensive firearms training, yet they had no problems with the gun or the size of it. I had placed the smallest of the 3 Palmswell grip inserts on the gun for them. The grip inserts have an aggressive texture, but not too aggressive, and the front portion of the grip also has a lighter texture.
This is a super easy gun to clean, too, and its recoil spring doesn't want to be set free to fly across the room.
One of the other main reasons I like this gun is for dry fire purposes. It's my go-to, with no ammo in the pistol or in the room, and a safe wall in front of me. This winter I am determined to dry fire more, and this gun, with its excellent sights, will be a super aid.
On the range, I tested 4 types of ammo – Remington's UMC Pistol and High Terminal Performance, along with Hornady's target and Critical Duty. I tested the pistol and ammo at 15 yards, and the smallest group of 3 fell within 1 inch and the largest, at 3.25 inches. Overall, averages ran between 2 and 2.5 inches for the various types of ammo. I chose 15 yards for the personal defense aspect. Later, I shot the gun at 25 yards on steel, liking the fast acquisition back onto the 8-inch disks.
I purchased the gun from Smith & Wesson recently, and am glad to add it to my line of personal defense guns.
Learn more about the PC M&P 40 with Ported Barrel here.

redpajama_set_name: RedPajamaCommonCrawl


Reported net income for the first quarter under Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP) of $4 million, or $0.03 per diluted share, compared to net income of $93 million, or $0.75 per diluted share in the first quarter of 2017. As the company has recently implemented new accounting standards, including the standards relating to revenue recognition and retirement benefits, 2017 financial information has been adjusted.
Reported first quarter 2018 adjusted diluted earnings per share of $0.14 compared to $0.99reported in the first quarter of 2017. First quarter adjusted net income excluding special items such as merger-related costs, an employee bonus awarded in connection with the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act, and mark-to-market fuel hedge accounting adjustments was $18 million, compared to $124 million in the first quarter of 2017. This quarter's adjusted results compare to the First Call analyst consensus estimate of $0.12 per share.
Paid a $0.32 per-share quarterly cash dividend in the first quarter, a 7% increase over the dividend paid in the first quarter of 2017.
Repurchased a total of 185,661 shares of common stock for approximately $12 million in the first three months of 2018.
Generated approximately $310 million of operating cash flow and used approximately $235 millionfor capital expenditures, resulting in approximately $75 million of free cash flow for the first three months of 2018.
Held $1.5 billion in unrestricted cash and marketable securities as of March 31, 2018.
Obtained a single operating certificate (SOC) from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) for Alaska Airlines and Virgin America, our most significant integration milestone to date. The SOC recognizes Alaska and Virgin America as one airline.
Reached an agreement in early April 2018 with mainline flight attendants that includes a merger transition plan and a two-year extension from December 2019 to December 2021. The agreement provides pay increases and paves the way to fully align nearly 5,700 mainline flight attendants under a single agreement.
Expanded our codeshare partnerships with Japan Airlines, Fiji Airways, Cathay Pacific and Finnair.
Began installation of next-generation Gogo satellite-based Wi-Fi in the first quarter of 2018, which will provide guests a faster internet connection across the Boeing and Airbus fleets.
Added one Boeing 737-900ER aircraft and two Airbus A321neo aircraft to the mainline operating fleet in the first quarter of 2018. Added one Embraer 175 (E175) regional jet to Horizon Air's fleet in the first quarter of 2018 and added two E175 aircraft operated by SkyWest Airlines.
Alaska Air Group, Inc., on April 23, 2018 reported first quarter 2018 GAAP net income of $4 million, or $0.03 per diluted share, compared to $93 million, or $0.75 per diluted share in the first quarter of 2017. Excluding the impact of certain noted items, the company reported adjusted net income of $18 million, or $0.14 per diluted share, compared to $124 million, or $0.99 per diluted share, in 2017.
Copyright Photo: Alaska Airlines Boeing 737-990 ER SSWL N265AK (msn 62682) (Honoring Those Who Serve) LAX (Michael B. Ing). Image: 941100.
This entry was posted in Alaska Air Group, Alaska Airlines and tagged Alaska Airlines, Boeing 737-990 ER SSWL, Honoring Those Who Serve, msn 62682, N265AK on April 23, 2018 by Bruce Drum.
Alaska Airlines on November 15, 2017 announced it will add nonstop, daily service between Seattle/Tacoma and Pittsburgh next fall. This new service is currently the only nonstop flight offered from Seattle-Tacoma International Airport to Pittsburgh International Airport. The new route provides a link from the West Coast to the thriving business community in Pittsburgh, which is continuing to grow as more technology companies look to establish a presence in the city.
Copyright Photo: Alaska Airlines Boeing 737-990 ER WL N265AK (msn 62682) (Honoring Those Who Serve) BWI (Brian McDonough). Image: 937282.
This entry was posted in Alaska Airlines and tagged Alaska Airlines, Boeing 737-990 ER WL, BWI, Honoring Those Who Serve, msn 62682, N265AK on November 15, 2017 by Bruce Drum.
Alaska Airlines is flying 23 military veterans and their guardians from the state of Alaska to Washington, D.C., to view their war memorials. Veterans on today's Honor Flight fought in World War II, and the Korean and Vietnam Wars.
Honor Flight Network is a national organization working to transport America's veterans to visit their war memorials in Washington, D.C.
In anticipation of Veterans Day, Alaska Airlines today unveiled the newest aircraft in its fleet featuring a patriotic special paint theme titled "Honoring Those Who Serve." The 737-900ER is dedicated to the brave men and women of the U.S. military, as well as veterans of the armed forces and their families. Its unique exterior paint scheme, conceived by a small group of Alaska maintenance technicians, was designed to symbolize remembrance, pride, and appreciation.
More than 250 airline employees were joined by veterans and current members of the military for a special dedication of the airplane in Alaska's Seattle maintenance hangar on October 26, 2016. In the days leading up to Veterans Day, the plane will fly to cities near military bases, including Anchorage and Fairbanks, Alaska; San Diego, and Washington D.C.
What first started as an idea on a napkin with a small group of passionate Alaska maintenance employees three years ago, has now become a tribute in the sky.
A red stripe and blue body of the aircraft incorporate elements of the American flag.
The phrase "Honoring Those Who Serve," boldly displayed on the fuselage as a symbol of remembrance, pride and appreciation.
A symbolic crest representing the Alaska Airlines Fallen Soldier Program to the right of the cargo door. The program ensures a fallen soldiers remains are treated with respect and dignity while being transported on company aircraft.
An "Alaska Airlines Salutes" medallion, featured on the right of the boarding door, near the nose of the aircraft. The medallion has five stars representing the five branches of the U.S. Armed Forces: Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine Corps and Coast Guard.
The special livery was created in partnership with Boeing, which shares an appreciation for the value that military personnel bring to the workplace. The companies collaborated throughout the painting and delivery process.
Copyright Photo: Alaska Airlines Boeing 737-990 ER WL N265AK (msn 62682) (Honoring Those Who Serve) BFI (Joe G. Walker). Image: 935223.
This entry was posted in Alaska Airlines and tagged Alaska Airlines, BFI, Boeing 737-990 ER WL, Honoring Those Who Serve, msn 62682, N265AK on October 18, 2016 by Bruce Drum.


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I guess Euthyphro wasn't available for this episode of Mr Deity » « Bacterial fossil doubts resolved
James Wood and the Magic Metaphor
Oh, not James Wood again. Wood is a literary critic who, like Terry Eagleton and Stanley Fish, dislikes those darned New Atheists on the strange grounds that they criticize a religious belief that weirdly cloistered literature theorists cannot and will not understand. I've already covered the pretentious follies of Wood at some length, and I don't feel like doing it again (especially since Wood's primary writing talent seems to be noodling along academically at excessive length — 'spare' and 'lucid' are not terms that will ever be associated with his writing style), but I will at least mention his latest, tritely familiar effort. Once again, he accuses the New Atheists of attacking an irrelevant religion that doesn't exist, via anecdotes. Like this one, which we could call the parable of the One True Christian.
I met the religious affairs journalist, who had for several years been a parish priest. During the course of our conversation, he asserted: "It is impossible to be a serious Christian and believe in heaven and hell." When I, who was raised in a strongly and conventionally religious home, expressed surprise and suggested that once one stops believing in heaven one might as well stop believing in God, he said, more vehemently: "It's exactly the opposite: not believing in heaven and hell is a prerequisite for serious Christian belief." Trapped in the childhood literalism of my background, I had not entertained the possibility of Christian belief separated from the great lure and threat of heaven and hell.
Please. Please, let this journalist or even James Wood come to Morris, Minnesota on a Sunday morning. We will sit and peruse this handy map of the town, in which the local churches are the primary landmarks, and he can pick any one of them that he likes: the conservative Evangelical Free Church on the west side, or the liberal Federated Church southeast of me, or the Catholic church a few blocks away, I don't care. And then we will go there and declaim to the congregation the non-existence of heaven and hell, and see what kind of reception we get. There might be a few at the Federated Church that will go along with it — there are people who are the next best thing to atheists there — but anywhere else, and we will probably be accused of being satanists. If his religious affairs journalist is correct, then America is not a seriously Christian nation.
It is not simple-minded literalism to accuse Christians of believing in the divinity of Jesus, an afterlife, or sin and redemption. These are explicit claims made in the published creeds of almost all Christian faiths. Yet somehow Wood can hear one rather bizarre outlier in the spectrum of Christian belief and come to the conclusion that atheists have been railing against a strawman version of Christianity.
Wood is completely blind to what the actual practice of religion looks like, and he has this imaginary world of faith in which everyone is a peculiarly philosophical freethinker with mere sympathies for Christianity. And his understanding of the atheists he despises is even worse. This is his Dawkins anecdote.
There is an amusing clip on YouTube, in which Dawkins confronts Rowan Williams. Dawkins asks the archbishop of Canterbury if he really believes in miracles such as the virgin birth and the resurrection, happenings in which the laws of physics and biology are suspended. Well, not literally, says Williams. But, says Dawkins, pouncing, surely Williams believes that these are not just metaphors? No, says the archbishop, they are not just metaphors, they are openings in history, "spaces" when history opens up to its own depths, and something like what we call a "miracle" might occur. Dawkins rightly says that this sounds very nice but is surely nothing more than poetic language. Williams rather shamefacedly agrees. The scene is amusing because both men are so obviously arguing past each other, and are so obviously arguing about language and the role of metaphor.
Dawkins is dead to metaphor, and tries to annul it by insisting on the literal occurrence, contained in actual words, of the virgin birth and the resurrection. And Williams insists that such literalism misses the target, and instead has recourse to the metaphor of "event", of a "space" opening up in history, an indefinably miraculous aberration. One feels sympathy for both sides – and perhaps simultaneously a plague on both their houses – because Dawkins seems so bullishly literal, and Williams so softly evasive. Contra Dawkins, God should be allowed some metaphorical space; but contra Williams, God's presence in the world, God's intervention, should not surely be only metaphorical. God is not just a metaphor.
"Dawkins is dead to metaphor." Has Wood ever read anything Dawkins has written? One of the hallmarks of the explanatory power of his books is his use of powerful metaphors to communicate — if there's any criticism to be made, it's that his metaphors are sometimes too seductive (and sometimes they trap people who aren't very clever: Mary Midgley, case in point).
I've heard this 'metaphor' defense of religion so often, but usually from theologians, not from unbelievers. I usually reply with one simple question:
"Metaphor for what?"
You would expect a literary critic to understand the concept. A metaphor doesn't just sit there, alone, looking pretty: it's a proxy for a more difficult or unfamiliar idea, a way to introduce the reader to a new way of looking at something by relating it to something comfortable and old. So what, exactly, is the virgin birth a metaphor for? What does it help us understand? What is the actual underlying phenomenon being described by this peculiar insistence that Jesus' mother had never had sexual intercourse, if not a literal claim that Mary 's vagina had never felt the intrusion of a penis? That's the mystery here. Williams wasn't able to explain it. So what good is this metaphor?
Try reversing it sometime. Confront Dawkins with one of his metaphors, like, say, the Selfish Gene, and ask him what he means by it. If he doesn't just tell you to go read the book, he'll be able to tell you it's a metaphor for a gene-centered view of evolution that you can also find in George Williams' book, Adaptation and Natural Selection, and that it refers to the selective propagation of replicators. It's a simple language hook to get you thinking about the meat of his story, and he certainly won't be as bewildered and lost as Rowan Williams on being asked to explain a key concept.
Dawkins wasn't being excessively literal, and he wasn't demonstrating a failure to understand the nature of a metaphor. He was being far more aware of the significance of metaphor than Rowan Williams and James Wood, and was trying to decipher actual meaning. Which, apparently, is irrelevant to Williams and incomprehensible to Wood.
Atheism and Skepticism, Religion and Government
D9000 says
I suspect that the kind of religion that actually exists in most churches in Morris is discounted because it is the religion of the proles, who don't count. Probably they didn't even go to a decent college. Maybe even not to one in Oxford or Cambridge (shudder).
Antiochus Epiphanes says
Lovely post, PZ.
PZ Myers says
Also, this is another post with a title that could be a band name.
Glen Davidson says
He was being far more aware of the significance of metaphor than Rowan Williams and James Wood, and was trying to decipher actual meaning.
Oh, meaning.
It's just not fair to ask for that .
Glen Davidson
raven says
Roughly half of all US xians don't believe satan, hell, or the Holy Spook exists.
I don't know how many of them bother going to church though.
The number of people who go to church runs around 25-35%, meaning half of all self identified xians don't bother.
Most U.S. Christians don't believe Satan, Holy Spirit exist
in.christiantoday.com/articles/most…christians…believe…/3704.htm – CachedSimilar
Apr 14, 2009 – In contrast, about 35 percent of American Christians believe Satan is real. … Polling "Christians" who don't attend church or demonstrate daily ….. lies is that the dead are not really dead but go on living in heaven or hell. …
Abelard says
Shorter Wood: "Damn you Atheists and your thinking about meaning! Every religious person knows that Belief is meaning unto itself and need not be explained at all!
The more I think about the writing of Fish and Wood et al. the more I blame how they were taught philosophy.
larianlequella says
Well, he did get one thing right in the article (although, he was summing up Sam Harris):
As long as America remains swamped in Christian thinking, it will never defeat militant Islamism, since one backward religious system cannot prevail over another backward religious system.
That's got to count for something, right?
kpidcoc says
Whaddya mean, metaphor for what?
zyxek says
This a nearly perfect illustration of the intellectual bankruptcy and solipsism at the core of liberal Christianity. It is all about what you have personally decided to use as the convenient and morally acceptable variant of the religion you were raised with. It is not a system of thought that could enhance or compete with Humanism, or any well-considered ethical system.
The faith of Rowan Williams is non-entity; so of course free thinkers will go after Rick Perry and Pastor Mike- they actually have a negative influence on our world.
Stonyground says
A reading of the New Testament would have informed him that the teachings of Mr. Jesus don't make any sense if Heaven and Hell don't exist. Most of his less than sage advice is about how to get to Heaven or avoid ending up in Hell, the whole religion revolves around being 'saved'.
In any case my atheist activism, such as it is, is not really needed because of what Christians believe or don't believe. It is their negative political influence in my country that I have a problem with and the fact that religion continues to cause millions of needless deaths.
draketungsten says
I think P.Z. is giving Williams too much credit. His thinking isn't even clear enough to call him out on using meaningless metaphors. According to the quote, Williams says the two cited miracles are not to be taken literally, but in the next breath says they are not just metaphors. Then what the hell are they?
"They are openings in history, "spaces" when history opens up to its own depths, and something like what we call a "miracle" might occur." Mealy-mouthed word salad that can be interpreted to support either the literal or the metaphorical view. That there is some sophisticated theology.
Mike de Fleuriot says
It's a get out jail free card, for when atheists press the issue, because at all other times, it is used to talk about a literal birth, which the believers accept and need. For a media interview, the religious leader has to be viewed as wise and learned, so use of metaphors and other twisty word plays, will increase his status and impress his believers.
It's what we all know con artists do, it's just one step away from "you are persecuting me for my beliefs".
StuartVO says
It seems that "It's only metaphor" is pretty-much the same as "It's just satire" – A "get out of jail free" card used by the intellectually dishonest.
I still say "Harry Potter-like titles".
"James Wood and the Salad of Words"
"James Wood and the Frantic Handwaving"
"James Wood and the Incoherent Apologetics"
It seems that "It's only metaphor" is pretty-much the same as "It's just satire"
It's an atheist tweak!
brocasbrian says
It's a metaphor or a hard to describe cognitive state. The problem is that people mistake that cognitive state as an extension of some real force in the universe.
Sam Salerno says
This metaphor argument is outlandish. I've heard it so many times. Enough. These people need to write a book separating the literal from the metaphor, and, as P.Z. says, explain the meaning of each metaphor. Until they can create such a beast I'm calling bullshit on the whole metaphor argument.
Occam's Blunt Instrument says
He says, "There is no 'last train to Amsterdam, they run 24 hours a day."
So I said, because I didn't know that when I wrote my song in Poetry, "It's a metaphor for Death." And the critic gave me 5 stars.
– Ray Wylie Hubbard
David Gerard says
Yes – it's the "religion of the proles" problem. The sophisticated believers really think everyone is like them, able to subsist entirely in an indeterminate theological fog.
In my experience, taking them to a random evangelical service will work. They will be horrified.
Maybe it's a metaphor for metaphors, a sort of meta-metaphor. Such a thing could only be described using a nuclear similie.
Shaggy Maniac says
raven wrote: Roughly half of all US xians don't believe satan, hell, or the Holy Spook exists.
(Sorry I have not HTML-fu)
N of one and all that, but this was a good description of me through most of my christian life and I was a regular church attendee. The attraction was, I think now, largely aesthetic and also belonging to a community of pretty awesome folks.
Being "saved" was never meaningful to me in the sense of "going to heaven" which always struck me as nonsensical. It was always about what I experienced as salvation in the here and now. Now I simply understand being saved, forgiven, etc. as accepting and embracing my own humanity – no god-talk required. So, maybe I was really an atheist all along, but it sure feels much better to embrace it than to continue to pretend otherwise.
feralboy12, der Ken-Puppe Sie außerhalb in 1983 verlassen says
The bright elusive butterfly of love, obviously.
And, for our amusement, they also need to explain how they decide what's literal and what's metaphor. And in Williams' case, he should also be required to explain his criteria for deciding something is greater than a metaphor but less than literal. Is he talking "truthy"?
fmitchell says
This sort of ethereal religion, I suspect, is a manifestation of the Sunk Cost Fallacy. Generations of people have spent thousands of years memorizing and arguing about the Holy Trinity and the Immaculate Conception and the Virgin Birth and Transubstantiation and the rest of this illogical crap, so (voice mimic="shatner") IT. MUST. MEAN. SOMETHING! (/voice)
All it really means is that that Emperor Constantine ordered a bunch of guys to fit inconsistent doctrines together and this is what they came up with. Curiously, all the bits about blind obedience and obeying civil authority stayed in, and several bits encouraging independent thought and personal experience became "heresy". (Admittedly, several bits too weird even for mystics also got the boot.)
But that can't be right, surely? Surely its sheer absurdity (and in these times increasing irrelevance) must be yet another Mystery that we must meditate on, while we defend its truth, for some value of "truth", with other people's very lives.
peterh says
It's quite refreshing to find at least one other person realizes the Nicene Creed is a political document. Or, perhaps, a document of political expediency.
Midnight Rambler says
No, says the archbishop, they are not just metaphors, they are openings in history, "spaces" when history opens up to its own depths, and something like what we call a "miracle" might occur.
What the fuck does this even mean? Literally or metaphorically? It sounds like he's saying "we don't have a historical record of what really happened, so let's just insert a miracle because hey, you never know!"
And besides there's a lot of exaggeration about how "metaphorical" Williams's religion actually is (at least in public, which obviously is where it counts). Williams himself has said "people think I don't really believe it but I do; I'm very literal about it." Words to that effect.
Hercules Grytpype-Thynne says
What the fuck does this even mean? Literally or metaphorically?
This kind of gobbledygook is not uncommon in modern "sophisticated" theology. I think it means they've been reading Derrida, or maybe that Derrida had been reading them.
Did you really witness such a thing? My impression is that the sophistric sophisticated believers know what belief in the real world is like, but make the socially (or commercially) calculated decision to not confront the masses with the error of their ways and face certain ostracization, and instead focus on how they differ with atheists, which can only win them points with the legions of "unsophisticated" believers.
sayamika, the killer bunny says
That is the issue with listening to clear-voiced Hitchens' muddy headed brother, the religious apologist, as well. He talks enough waffle to feed Belgium for an eternity of brunches.
Myron says
A metaphor is nothing unless one can say nonmetaphorically what that is for or of which it is a metaphor.
arensb says
Well, I googled "what is God a metaphor for?" and found this quotation attributed to Joseph Campbell:
God is a metaphor for that which trancends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that.
So if I understand correctly, God is an abstract concept defined not so much by what it is, but what it isn't. A bit like "the smallest integer that cannot be identified in less than 3000 words".
bnimble says
Wow, eleven churches in that small an area really seems like overkill.
For those interested: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/metaphor
'Tis Himself, pour encourager les autres says
Finally, the veil is lifted and we get a peek at the mysterious sophisticated theology known only to theological apologists. In other words, bullshit.
anthrosciguy says
Never drive through northern Arkansas.
nigelTheBold, Porcupine Trainer says
James Wood:
Contra Dawkins, God should be allowed some metaphorical space; but contra Williams, God's presence in the world, God's intervention, should not surely be only metaphorical. God is not just a metaphor.
God is not just a metaphor. God is a misunderstanding.
God is the piece of us that wants to know the truth of our world without the hardships of studying our world. God is the desire to know right from wrong in every situation, when right and wrong is not a binary proposition. God is the hope there is something there to catch us when we fall, against all reason.
God is not just a metaphor. God is the intellectual embodiment of evil.
God is a thought that is corrosive to personal responsibility. God is the bit of our brain that yearns for protection, and a promise there is no monster under our bed. God is the wooden stake we drive through the heart of morality and conscience. God is the scapegoat to which we pin all our personal evils.
God is not just a metaphor. But that doesn't mean God exists anywhere outside our own brains.
And to illustrate, Morris is about 5,000 people. Huntsville Arkansas is about 2,000. There are 19 churches in Huntsville. This is not unusual there.
I'm sure Woods would be most welcome there; they probably haven't had someone to lynch for a while now. :)
machintelligence says
So a metaphor is essentialy the opposite of a deepity?
myeck waters says
bnimble #33
You don't understand. They can't join together because EACH IS THE ONE TRUE CHURCH.
Josh says
Yeah, arensb, that's called "negative theology," characterizing God by all the things He ain't. Derrida gave a long lecture in Jerusalem in 1986 teasing out the paradoxes in various expressions of that point of view. Seems to me there are three directions you can go from there: 1) De facto atheism. If this God character is so far beyond human comprehension, I'm not gonna worry about Him: I'll go do something else with my time. 2) A variation on Einsteinian "cosmic religion." "God" represents our awe in the face of the new questions that arise the more we discover about the universe. 3) Complete intellectual shutdown, with "goddidit" and "God has His reasons" as instant explanations for everything (as I write this, I see nigelthebold thinking along similar lines). None of these, not even the third (because it gets used so selectively), seems to have much to do with religion as it's actually practiced by billions of people, which leaves Eagleton's and Wood's three-card-monte game unconvincing.
I looked at the list from the chamber of comerce.
There are actually 16 churches listed. Including 4 or 5 different One True Lutheran varieties. They have some real winners including a WELS and JW's.
cag says
#42 Raven – pretty impressive for a godless community, but then the whole world is godless, as is the universe.
"in the beginning god created the heaven and the earth". Imagine how quickly the earth would have fallen into the 332,000 times heavier sun on day 4. It takes major ignorance of natural order to believe the bible, metaphor or not. Celestical mechanics trumps the genesis nonsense every which way.
There might be a few at the Federated Church that will go along with it — there are people who are the next best thing to atheists there —
I wonder how many you'd find there today. I used to be one of those people in one of those congregations and, while it was easy enough to identify fellow nonbelievers, they were mostly elderly. As they died off, the congregation became more conservative theologically, and I resigned myself to declaring my apostasy. Wood and Williams represent the view of what is literally a dying breed.
Anteprepro says
The Great List of Sophisticated Metaphors, finally revealed!
Virgin birth: God's love, wisdom, and the power of miracles!
Resurrection: God's love, salvation, and the power of miracles!
Miracles: God's power and goodness!
Heaven/Eternal life: God's goodness and love for human kind; power of the human spirit.
Hell and the Fall: God's high moral standards and hatred of sin.
Sin: Humans breaking God's laws and rejecting his love.
God's orders for genocide: God's mysterious nature, strong desire for for people to follow God's laws.
God's laws: God's concern for mankind to avoid sin; see God's love.
Salvation: God's love and wisdom; eternal life.
God's power: Our motivation to love God, expression of God's love.
God's wisdom: Expression of God's love.
Spirit/Soul: Positive feelings.
God's love: Good fortune in life, positive feeling about life.
And, remember, God is love. It's warm and fuzzy woo all the way down. At least for those trying to use the possibility of figurative language to deflect criticism. The very fact that they are invoking metaphor is itself saying that atheists are closer to the truth than those who take the things dismissed as metaphor as both literal and true. But you'll never hear these mealy-mouthed sophists ever admit that that is what they are effectively saying.
Classical Cipher, OM says
That's extremely beautiful, nigel.
Just for clarity's sake: the above list was supposed to be intentionally self-referential definitions, offered tongue-in-cheek.
What it might look like, but is not:
an authoritative list of what these terms "really mean" chucked out by an indignant, condescending Christianist who actually believes that the garble above is supposed to "really mean" something.
And now that I've blandly explained the joke, my day is complete.
Spunmunkey says
Williams sounds like he's been reading Chopra… I guess biblical miracles are just quantum events… Shit! I may have given believers an out… *heh*
Jeremiah Wood says
I think you will find that in academics (or those in closely related fields) there is an emphasis on originality (or else you won't get tenure, a job, published, etc.). This system encourages writers to try to be contrarians at all turns–they can't be seen as unoriginal. I think Woods is falling into this group of people. It is probably a frequent attempt in science only science is restricted by reality–in literature or philosophy it is easier to get around pesky reality.
=8)-DX says
I'm coining the phrase "having a magic metaphor with my James Wood".
Everyone can guess what I'm doing, but if anyone asks I'll just say they're arguing against a manly straw-man..
Oh? Well I'd agree except I think I'll go with:
God is the worst-case result of extremely clever pattern-seeking mammals identifying patterns that just aren't fcking there.
SirBedevere says
@NigelTheBold #37
God is the piece of us that wants to know the truth of our world without the hardships of studying our world.
I think this is large part of theistic thinking. And what's more, they want to understand everything now. When they criticize science because it doesn't know (fill in the blank) they can't accept the answer that science probably will know the answer eventually. We're all going to be dead before many of science's greatest discoveries are made; they're too far in the future. But if you fill in the blanks with "god did it" you can have all the answers now!
PeteJohn says
Here's a link to the Nicene Creed. I was taught in my fairly moderate Methodist Church as a young'un that the Nicene Creed was something I would one day be required to memorize b/c it held the bases of Christian faith. It was essentially the things I had to believe to be a True Believer.
http://www.creeds.net/ancient/nicene.htm
The Nicene Creed asserts that there is an eternal life for Jesus and for those who follow Him, a literal reading of the Resurrection narrative in the Gospels, the existence of a place called heaven, and the existence of a triune expression of God. So does that make all of the members of the church I attended fake Christians or something?
I never fail to be stunned by the conceit of some liberal believers. They seem to have no problem letting science and history and other academic disciplines chase their beliefs all over the house and into a deep, dark corner of the attic, and then claim that that corner was the best place of them all. They'll go along with nearly any cookoo thing all but the most extreme faitheists say, and then condemn us atheists for disagreeing and for our tone. It's ludicrous and should not be tolerated. The evasion makes me want to yack.
By the way, for a beautiful example of how religious language can and should be understood metaphorically, take a look at this article from the Spring '83 issue of Creation/Evolution. I've read other writings by the same author and disagree with him on a lot of issues, but (with the disclaimer that IANABS – where "BS" is short, in this case, for "Biblical Scholar" – I think he's nailed Genesis 1 here.
Furthermore, the Apostles' Creed, which is still used by many Western denominations, states that after his burial and before his resurrection, Jesus descended to the place of the dead (Greek: τὰ κατώτατα "the lowest"; Latin ad inferos "to those below"). If this isn't the Dante's hell, it's at least something below and beyond simply being buried. But of course you can't be a True ScotsmanChristian and believe such tripe.
Cerberus says
Essentially his argument is that atheist arguments cease sounding reasonable and become the strident overreacting nonsense that Christians want them to be, at the same point that there ceases to be any meaningful distinction between atheist and Christian beliefs.
I mean, sure, remove all non-rational and supernatural beliefs from Christianity and you basically get an obsessive-compulsive book club who refuses to switch books.
But you also lose the point of religion to exist. At that point, there are plenty of other fictional books with far greater narrative weights and moral lessons that don't require reading in a wholly unique method of skipping around randomly and having an authority figure tell you what they mean.
At that point there is no point going to Church and certainly no point in listening to a pastor, because there is nothing there that he can tell you that would be worth returning every Sunday for. You can stay at home, divine whatever fictional content you desire in a long weekend and be done with it.
At that point, the Church becomes a sadder version of a Harry Potter fangroup demanding everyone read Book 3 chapter 6 for the 19th time so that the dream will never die. I mean, at least throw in some cosplay, LARPing, or some fan-created content if you're going to be that lame.
And that's the thing about these people. They want to argue that their religion is harmless and attempts to antagonize it are completely out of the blue. Why, take it seriously, we would never. But they refuse to rationalize that to its required conclusion. If you are truly taking nothing seriously, why bother defending it. It becomes the most useless wasted activity on the planet and it represents nothing but a combination of wasted productive time and wasted leisure time to be the most useless timesink known to humanity.
Oh, suddenly at that time, the morals, lessons, and teachings become "critical". Uh huh, and why do those lessons trump say the lessons of Watchmen or American Gods? Oh, Jesus is Lord and these are the words of God. And why are those important? Uh huh, suddenly all that meaningless supernatural stuff is all right there in the forefront.
They can't have it both ways.
Either its useless and they can shut up about it in public and private company and treat it like the third rate fan group it is or its a serious heavy hitter that deserves "respect" and most importantly outside criticism and resistance from the groups to be negatively effected by its "teachings".
@Hercules
I'm starting to realize that the No True Scotsman is the thing all theists turn to when they're cornered by the wacky beliefs of other theists. They can say "Well, that's what that person believes, I don't believe in anything that silly!" They then pat themselves on the back and say "Whew, escaped that one" or "That silly atheist, what does he/she know?!?!" It's pretty lame in my view, and lets people get away with wishy washy thinking.
It's also amazing that the UK "sophisticated Christians" are making a game out of never hearing about Evangelicals.
Maybe I'm over-estimating the state of UK newspapers, but to me, here in America, that seems to be a statement of overwhelming ignorance.
I mean, the whole point of their "why, no, literal, I would never" stance is to argue that they are intelligent and non-superstitious, thus their religion must be the same. But the raw proof that there are a huge number of aggressive idiots calling themselves Christian and believing very literal interpretations of rules and doctrines is everywhere in national news. It dominates why American politics is the way it is. It shows itself whenever an official of the Vatican makes a pronouncement or explains its policies in third-world nations. It pops up whenever missionaries fuck up another third world nation or whenever some nutcase makes a big overt literal gesture to their "One True God".
To ignore all this evidence and truly be "dumbfounded" at the thought of literal believers as they claim to be would take a rather active ignorance on par with that of Rapturists when they argue that the UN is an evil organization hell bent on world domination. To know so little of their supposed topic of fixation would argue that they are not merely dumb, but almost deliberately stupid. Aware enough to remember to avoid all periodicals and information that would damage their self-delusions.
This does not say to the world: "Now here's a capable fellow who is not at all silly unlike those lower-class American chaps, here's a good boy".
It says: "Here is the winner of the upper class twit of the year contest from that Monty Python sketch."
It really makes me wonder who they think they are fooling.
Is there just something going on in Britain's water right now and there's a big propaganda campaign going on saying "Christianity here is no longer silly and is totally atheist as long as the atheists agree to join us on a Crusade against those filthy brown hordes who dared give us good tasting food."
Cause it seems like it sometimes.
Cereberus: ". I mean, at least throw in some cosplay, LARPing, or some fan-created content if you're going to be that lame."
Cosplay: Catholic church clerical vestments.
LARPing: Pentecostal "speaking in tongues", faith healing, Communion, exorcisms.
Fan created content: The Rapture, Mormonism, all the fancy, detailed depictions of angels, demons, the devil, and the afterlife.
Hey, they are being lame with a particularly lame book.
When they criticize science because it doesn't know (fill in the blank) they can't accept the answer that science probably will know the answer eventually.
Even when science does have good answers which they accept, some crotchety old fuckers just can't get no satisfaction.
So a bunch of physicists figured out a bunch of stuff about relativity and quantum mechanics. Sure, we gained knowledge, which you'd think is good for its own sake, but what good does any of that do? Why'd we spend our money on those trifles, rather than eliminating the deficit and cutting taxes even more? What do you mean, they made it possible to have computers, cell phones and satellite TV? What do you mean we didn't have to know in advance how to apply such knowledge to something useful? Bah. It's not like that stuff has made the world significantly better anyway. No, no, you don't understand, I'm very pro-science. But there are still wars to be had against brown people, and now gays want to marry, and I still don't have a flying car that wipes my ass for me….
Nothing is enough for some people. They may claim they have no problem with science per se, but continue to rant and wheeze about their every ache and pain, every issue they don't understand in disciplines they've never studied. They seem to have this weird expectation that science ought to offer magic, and to the extent they understand that it never will, they somehow find themselves disillusioned with science rather than magic. Meanwhile, religion gives them an endless smorgasbord of any magical bullshit they want, whenever they want it, which is especially convenient if they don't even know what they want. Never mind all those problems hurled at science a moment ago — those don't apply to religion, because, well, it's magic. That's just a given; and being magical, religion has no problems that it cannot "solve" with yet more magic.
I guess it's a similar situation with Wood, besotted with his ability to pontificate impotently about descriptions of a fictional whale. He wants to feel like there's magic involved somehow, like he has some deeper connection to some part of human nature in literature, which scientists (and we, his unwashed "literalist" heathen strawmen) will never be able to touch. He wants to feel like there are some things for which he, or at least Melville et al, simply cannot be wrong — not that others are wrong and he is right; but that those things, whatever they are, just are ineluctably beyond description or explanation. No matter what scientists or "New Atheist literalists" know, even if they knew everything, he suspects there would still be these magical remnants which are a "real" part of the human experience, presumably hidden in metaphors or images or whatever pretentious waffle is most convenient.
Total bullshit, of course, but that's as far as I follow before I start to doze off.
Anteprepro @59
Touche.
But I still maintain that their activities are the lamest incarnations of activities already viewed as silly to begin with.
When "Lightning Bolt guy" looks like he's spending his time more worthwhile and carries more dignity than you, its time to pack it in and just order a D&D book already.
Pierce R. Butler says
Metaphors be with you.
— Yoda, JK
Markita Lynda, admirer of roadkill says
I dunno. After Martha and the Muffins, Magic Man and the Mystical Metaphors sounds a little airy-fairy. Too low-calorie.
Sneak says
When a church elder says, "the virgin birth is just metaphor," I cannot help but think they've already given up on their own religion.
Aren't they talking about the grand architect of the (geo-centric, flat) universe? Hasn't asexual reproduction been witnessed in other species? How could someone claiming an intimate relationship with ALL THE POWER turn around and say that same power is unable to knock-up one teenage girl, when some lizards can self-impregnate without resorting to prayer?
It's like getting a tattoo of your favourite band, then telling everyone how much they suck.
JesseW says
nigel @37 — Excellent and passionate prose. After I showed it to a friend of mine, I had to explain that it was not (just) a rational argument, but a passionate expression of gnu atheist feeling, and that yes, we do have feelings. ;-)
I liked it enough that I formatted it up as a single-sheet sign (the fonts may not come through, depending on system settings). Hope you don't mind!
Sorry, link didn't work; this one should work (it asks for an email address to download (presumably for spamming purposes), but seems to accept Mailinator, at least under the domain: suremail.info) This is the better link.
Erulóra (formerly KOPD) says
I thought James Wood was the guy that made those cheesy sci-fi movies. I was a bit confused through the first paragraph or two.
brokenSoldier, OM says
Pierce R. Butler says:
Incidentally, this is one of the things that first made me realize how silly my Catholic upbringing looked to the outside world, because seeing Jedi Knights in Star Wars say 'May the Force be with you' immediately reminded me of the incantations you're required to repeat during mass. As in, when the priest says, 'May the lord be with you,' the congregation answers, 'And also with you.' I remember thinking that if it look this silly in the movie, why is it any less silly on Sunday?
So I guess, in part, I have Obi-Wan Kenobi to thank for beginning my exodus from the church! :P
JesseW:
I certainly don't mind at all. In fact, it is quite a compliment. Thanks.
Erulóra:
I thought James Wood was the guy that made those cheesy sci-fi movies.
That's his plural older brother, James Woods.
Iain Walker says
SirBedevere (#52):
And what's more, they want to understand everything now.
I think that's definitely a significant part of the theistic mindset, although it's probably a wider human failing. There's a kind of person who is more interested in having answers than in finding things out.
On top of that, there's this hankering after not just having answers, but having ultimate answers, answers which bring the regress of explanation to a close. You see this all the time in "philosophical" theology – the obsession with First Causes, Final Causes, Necessary Beings etc etc.
I sometimes wonder if at least part of the explanation for this lies in the authoritarian, top-down thinking so typical of theism. Just as the moral order of the universe is seen in terms of everything coming from above, our understanding of how things work must likewise be anchored from the top. Related to this, most forms of theism are closed ideologies – they try to be self-contained and complete, because they seek to provide all the answers for their adherents, the better to ensure their continued adherence. In such a world-view, open-endedness is a big no-no.
The idea of building up our understanding reality by unpeeling it layer by layer, and witholding judgement on ultimate answers until we actually reach them (assuming of course that there are any ultimate answers to be had) seems to be quite alien to such people.
PeteJohn (#53):
They seem to have no problem letting science and history and other academic disciplines chase their beliefs all over the house and into a deep, dark corner of the attic, and then claim that that corner was the best place of them all.
In some cases it's worse than this. Not only are liberal believers happy to proclaim their metaphorical or even non-realist versions of religion the best form of religion (which to be honest I'm not entirely unsympathetic towards as long as they're consistent about it), but some of them will even try and claim that this is always what religion has been about, and that far from reinventing their faith, they're actually taking it back to its roots. In a certain sense, they see themselves as the True Christians (or whatever), as traditionalists rather than innovators.
And it's this kind of ahistorical intellectual imperialism that tends to piss me off more than their woolly, oh-so-not-literal pieties.
Actually, I think I may have been thinking of his even older brother, Ed.
nostradumbass says
There's got to be a name for this reverse straw man ploy used by Wood.
My analogy:
A: The porn industry is exploitive, misogynistic, lacks artistry and is often run by criminals.
B: Why do you criticize porn based on the worst examples? I have a friend who produces porn. She is a feminist, an artist and creates very tasteful porn in an ethical manner. Therefore your characterization of the porn industry is a straw man.
truthspeaker says
Midnight Rambler says:
I'm pretty sure that's exactly what Williams meant. Since we don't have complete historical records, it's perfectly rational (to him) to believe miraculous stories as long as they take place in one of the gaps.
Howlin Wolfe says
They're not metaphors, they're myths. No less mythical than the chimera, the story of Theseus and the Minotaur. I suppose you could say the virgin birth, notwithstanding its occurrence in other mythologies, is a metaphor signifying that because no human was the father, we are all children of Yaweh, or whatever the glorified thunder god is called, whom Christians and Jews call "God". But that's way too garbled and certainly not how it's interpreted.
But as a myth, it stands on its own pretty well. And whatever historical, archaeological or literary interest it contains doesn't make it something that is true, factual or historical. That's the real question. What is the mythographic significance of it?
Robert Graves, for all his faults as a mythographer, nailed the mythographical flaws of "Chrestianity" very well.
You say that neither you nor Dawkins are literal-minded, but are perfectly interested in metaphor.
Why, then, do you think that a metaphor's figuration is irrelevant, that only its literal meaning matters? "Metaphor for what?" is not a question, its a command: "Junk the metaphor, and tell me only what you literally meant."
Just as the religious fanatic treats the figural element of the metaphor too literally, and believes that Mary literally conceived on a particular day by visitation of an angel, you treat the literal element too figuratively, and forget that the figurative element holds a large part of the meaning.
Dawkins' "Selfish Gene" is a patently ideological image. We might recall that "survival of the fittest" is not a Darwinian phrase, but a Malthusian one. For all his protestations, Dawkins' view of the impersonal universe is charged with moral meaning: he sees reality through the lens of individualistic liberalism, but wrapped up in his ideology, thinks he is anti-ideological.
James Wood makes the elementary point that the New Atheists are right to be skeptical of religious ideology, but wrong to be ideologues themselves.
I would have thought that, as a good sceptic, you would find this an edifying argument.
Michael: In what way is seeing Myers and Dawkins asking religious handwavers to explain what their supposed metaphors mean, what things they supposedly reference, sufficient evidence for you to regard Myers and Dawkins as literal-minded ideologues? Are you seriously proposing that metaphors in general have no meaning? I agree that the "metaphors" invoked by the religious probably have no meaning, but no writer worth his salt uses metaphors that don't, to some degree, reference something "literal" (be it concrete or abstract).
I would have thought, as a good skeptic, that you would not rush to the defense of those who make arguments as dishonest as James Wood's. For fucks' sake, he pointed to one (ONE) person who considers themselves Christian and denies the afterlife as an indication that New Atheists were somehow wrong to attack those who do. But guess fucking what? Somewhere around 70% of Americans believe in hell, heaven, the devil, and angels. See here: http://www.gallup.com/poll/11770/eternal-destinations-americans-believe-heaven-hell.aspx
Which, surprise surprise, is around the same percentage of the population that are Christian. Also, of regular churchgoers, 98% believe in Heaven and 92% believe in Hell (no accounting for cafeteria Christians). But James Fucking Wood doesn't care about statistics, because he has an anecdote and buckets full of condescension! That roughly 10% of Christians that don't really believe the bullshit is sufficient enough for him to beat up on New Atheists for being too literalist, just like those durn fundamentalists. It gets a bit tiresome to deal with this tripe from people who pretend that Christianity has merit because there is some vague, nebulous alternative interpretations that only a handful of actual Christians actually support.
Michael #76
"Metaphor for what?" is not a question, its a command: "Junk the metaphor, and tell me only what you literally meant."
That's the problem with religious metaphors, they're usually so nebulous, so tenuous, so vague that their metaphoricity is quite opaque. Take the virgin birth, a concept central to several Jebusite sects (particularly the Catholics). What is it a metaphor of? It's quite well known that "virgin" is a mistranslation of a word which really means "young girl." But the Marist cults all insist that virgin means someone who never had sexual intercourse and the Mother of God™, even though married, never had sex with Joseph.
The question "metaphor for what?" isn't really a demand for a literal explanation but rather "why is this important?" or "what is the significance of this metaphor?" What difference does it make if Mary was a virgin when Yahweh raped her? What difference does it make if Mary never fucked Joseph? Mary's virginity is a concept utterly vital to Catholics and other Jebusites of that kidney but utterly meaningless to those of us who don't revere Mary as a demi-goddess.
When I read The Selfish Gene I completely missed the political aspects of the book. Of course, I was reading it as a scientific book, not a political treatise. I suspect you, like Mary Midgley, are reading something in the book that patently isn't there. But I forgot, you had to find Dawkins's professing an ideology in The Selfish Gene, otherwise your slam at him and Myers as ideologues would be extremely weak.
No, Wood makes a whine that atheists don't believe in God and he really, truly thinks that we should. What you're missing is the majority of atheists, certainly the majority of the regulars on this blog, aren't ideologically driven "we don't believe in god(s), so there, nyah!" atheists. Rather we're "we don't see any evidence for the existence of god(s) so, until such time as reasonable evidence is presented, we don't accept the existence of god(s)." Our atheism isn't a premise, it's a conclusion based on logic and evidence (or the lack thereof).
It would be a good argument and, if that was the argument Wood was making, we'd be a lot less disdainful towards him. However, since Wood's argument is more than we're conflating the fundamentalist, Biblical-literalist view of God as a guy with long, white beard who's obsessed with peoples' sex lives with the rarefied, philosophical, sophisticated deity who's more appealing to Wood himself.
Wood does have a point. His god and the god who cures acne if prayed at hard enough are two completely separate entities who share few attributes. However, the vast majority of Jebusite goddists do believe in a guy with a halo who decides which football team will win the game.
There's the further point that liberal deists like Wood are not the ones using religion to push a particular socio-political agenda. If all the goddists were like Wood, we'd have no problem with them. But too many goddists are like Ken Ham and Pat Robertson and Rick Warren, right-wing extremists trying to turn the country into a third-world theocracy. Those people have to be stopped. And Wood is not helping by whining at the people trying to stop the Dominionists.


Heat butter in a flat pan, add chopped garlic, green chillies & fry for few seconds.
Add maida and fry for a few seconds (until slightly golden brown).
Add milk & stir in contents without lumps.
Once the mixture starts to thicken, add the boiled corn kernels, salt, mixed Italian herbs, dried parsley & mix in well.
Add grated cheese, mix well and allow to cook for a few seconds.
Garnish with chopped corriander leaves & serve on toasted bread slices.


In August 1881, Crow Dog, "belonging to" the Brule Sioux Band, killed Spotted Tail, who signed the treaty of 1868 as the principal Chief of the Brule Sioux. "The killing," according to court records, "took place at their agency upon the Great Sioux Indian reservation, in the first judicial district of Dakota Territory." Crow Dog was convicted of murder by the district court of Dakota territory, and sentenced to death.
The Supreme Court's decision in Ex Parte Crow Dog includes a fine-grained analysis of the jurisdiction of the district courts of the Territory of Dakota, sections of the revised U.S. statutes pertaining to "crimes arising within the maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States," the provisions of the treaty of April 29th, 1868 and an agreement with "certain bands of the Sioux Indians, &c." approved by Congress February 28th, 1877.
By Act of May 27, passed at the last session of Congress, provision was made for the organization at the various agencies of a system of Indian police … Too short a time has elapsed to perfect or thoroughly test the workings of such a system, but the results of the experiment at the thirty agencies in which it has been tried are entirely satisfactory, and commend it as an effective instrument of civilization. … The police organization should be followed up by the adoption of a code of laws for Indians, and peace and good order among them will result.
It is a matter if vital importance that action should be taken to secure the passage of the above bill, or of some measure of equal efficiency to provide law for Indians, to the end that order may be secured. A civilized community could not exist as such without law, and a semi-civilized and barbarous people are in a hopeless state of anarchy without its protection and sanctions. It is true the various tribes have regulations and customs of their own, which, however, are founded on superstition and ignorance of the usages of civilized communities … To supply their place it is the bounden duty of the government to provide laws suited to the dependent condition of the Indians. … the wonder is that such a code was not enacted years ago.
It is of the utmost importance that some such measure … should be passed, not only in the interest of peace and good order among the Indians, but also as a necessary factor in the work of their civilization. Under the present system, outside of the five civilized tribes, crimes and offenses committed by one Indian against the person and property of another are remitted to tribal laws or customs for punishment. It is time that this relic of barbarism should cease. The Indian should be taught to know and respect the same law which governs the white man, and to recognize the fact that, while he is amenable to the law, he is equally entitled to its protection and privileges.
Various measures looking to this end have been introduced in Congress, among the latest being House bill No. 350, Forty-sixth Congress, second session … This bill, as well as others of a kindred nature, died a natural death at the close of the last Congress.
For years past urgent appeals have been made by this office for such legislation as will insure a proper government of the Indians, by providing that the criminal laws of the United States shall be in force on Indian reservations, and shall apply to all offenses, including those of Indians against Indians; and by extending the jurisdiction of the United States courts to enforce the same; in short to make an Indian as amenable to law as any other subject of the United States.
I again respectfully recommend that the attention of Congress be called to the subject, with a view to such legislation as it may deem expedient.
In the annual reports of this office for several years past, attention has been invited to the urgent necessity of some suitable code of laws for Indian reservations. Indians in the Indian country are not punishable for crimes or offenses committed against the persons or property of each other. Such offenses are generally left to the penalties of tribal usage … or the offenders are subjected to a few weeks or months arbitrary confinement in an agency guardhouse or military fort.
… Congress should confer both civil and criminal jurisdiction on the several States and Territories over all Indian reservations within their respective limits, and make the person and property of he Indian amenable to he laws of the State or Territory in which he may reside … and give him all the rights in the courts enjoyed by other persons. … What is required is a law for the punishment of crimes and offenses among the Indians themselves, one which shall make the Indian equally secure with the white man in his individual rights of person and property, and equally amenable for any violation of the rights of others.
On the 10th of April last you [the Secretary of the Interior] gave your official approval to certain rules governing the "court of Indian offenses," prepared in this office in accordance with instructions contained in your letter of December 2 last. These rules prohibit the sun-dance, scalp-dance and war-dance, polygamy, theft, &c., and provide for the organization at each agency of a tribunal composed of Indians empowered to try all cases of infraction of the rules. … I am of the opinion that the "court of Indian offenses," with some few modifications, could be placed in successful operation at the various agencies, and thereby many of the barbarous customs now existing among the Indians would be entirely abolished.
"There is no special law authorizing the establishment of such a court, but authority is exercised under the general provisions of the law giving this Department supervision of the Indians. The policy of the Government for many years past has been to destroy the tribal relations as fast as possible, and to use every endeavor to bring the Indians under the influence of law. To do this the agents have been accustomed to punish for minor offenses, by imprisonment in the guard-house and by withholding rations, but under the present system the Indians themselves, through their judges, decide who are guilty of offenses under the rules, and pass judgment in accordance with the provision thereof. Neither the section in the last Indian appropriation bill [granting federal jurisdiction over major crimes] … nor any other enactment of Congress reaches any of the crimes or offenses provided for in the Department rules, and without such a court many Indian reservations would be without law or order, and the laws of civilized life would be utterly disregarded.


An important new book has recently been published which addresses the question of global poverty, but does so by provoking the reader to also consider our own nation and demand that we better understand ourselves and the wellsprings of our own success.
The economist is Barry Asmus, senior economist at the National Center for Policy Analysis. The professor is Wayne Grudem, research professor of theology and biblical studies at Phoenix Seminary.
What accounts for the astounding success of our nation, at the same time the world's most prosperous but also, at just 227 years old, one of the world's youngest?
The mystery of the nature and sources of wealth and poverty is far from new, and Asmus and Gruden survey the vast literature dealing with this most basic question . They also review the long experience of attempts by governments to design policies to alleviate and eradicate poverty in their own country and in others.
In the end, the picture that emerges appears quite clear. Over thousands of years of human experience, going through economic arrangements such as tribalism, slavery, feudalism, mercantilism, socialism and communism, and welfare statism, no arrangement can compare in creating new value, production of goods and services, and prosperity, like the free market.
However, despite the success of free market economies, they are regularly subject to political challenge because of the ongoing human desire to understand the "ghost in the machine," so to speak, and control it and its outcomes. How does it work? How does this prosperity happen when no one seems to be in charge, and when there seems to be no place to turn to see who designed and is running it all?
The authors help the lay reader understand key aspects of free markets that make them work so well — ownership and private property, the vital information conveyed by prices in the marketplace and profits and losses of business, specialization and competition, and creativity and entrepreneurship.
But a key addition they add to the equation is what is often forgotten, ignored, or dismissed in discussions about free market economies.
With all the abstract discussions about public policy, with our great ambition to develop "systems", we tend to forget, incredibly, that the core component of human systems is individual, unique human beings — each a unique universe unto himself or herself.
We should wonder how we have so many discussions about freedom and so few about individual free choice and personal responsibility and the existence of good and evil which make individual responsibility and choice so important.
But the movement made a grave error to overlook that the reason for the liberation from Egypt was so that that nation could go and receive the law and live according to it, freely, in their own land.
Freedom is more than removal of external barriers of oppression and limitation. It demands individuals personally adopting principles of truth and virtue so that they may govern their own lives and live successfully with others.


THE CORONATION OF CHARLEMAGNE: Since the title of emperor had become extinct among the Greeks and a woman (Empress Irene) claimed the imperial authority, it seemed to Pope Leo and to all the holy fathers who were present at the council and to the rest of the Christian people that Charles, king of the Franks, ought to be named emperor, for he held Rome itself where the Caesars were always accustomed to reside and also other cities in Italy, Gaul and Germany. Since almighty God had put all these places in his power it seemed fitting to them that, with the help of God, and in accordance with the request of all the Christian people, he should hold this title. King Charles did not wish to refuse their petition, and, humbly submitting himself to God and to the petition of all the Christian priests and people, he accepted the title of emperor on the day of the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ and was consecrated by Pope Leo.
To Charles, most pious Augustus, crowned by God, great and peace-loving emperor, life and victory.
This was said three times before the sacred tomb of blessed Peter the apostle, with the invocation of many saints, and he was instituted by all as emperor of the Romans. Thereupon, on that same day of the nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ, the most holy bishop and pontiff anointed his most excellent son Charles as king with holy oil.


I want DP remakes for the games because I love Gen 4 so much.
BW remakes though..... I want that for the exact same reason I wanted RS remakes.
fun fact in the Nintendo direct us and um were announced in if you look behind the guy, you see on the shelf behind him with on it boxes for every single main series Pokemon game... Except for diamond and pearl.[DOUBLEPOST=1499049195,1499049114][/DOUBLEPOST]Also already pre ordered ultra sun a while back. Anyone else?


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Home Sports Madison Keys – Bio, Parents, Family, Siblings, Ethnicity, Boyfriend, Height
Madison Keys – Bio, Parents, Family, Siblings, Ethnicity, Boyfriend, Height
Madison Keys was inspired to play tennis just by watching Venus Williams wearing a white tennis dress as she played the game. She took a keen interest in the game, went into it and has been on top of her game since then. Her passion for the game was not inspired by her environs because, in the little town where she was brought up, they played more of football and baseball, this didn't limit her dreams about playing the game. Keys lives a very private life and has tried within her power to keep the media off her personal life, however, we have gathered some interesting details about her here.
Madison Keys Bio (Ethnicity)
Madison Keys is a pretty young lad who was born in Rock Island; one of the cities in Illinois on February 17, 1995. She has countlessly said she wouldn't be described by her race but acknowledging her roots is inevitable. She is biracial, owing to the fact that her dad is an African American and her mom is an American.
Her educational details have not been made available yet. An update would be done as soon as she is ready to talk about them. At the age of 14, the young tennis lover became a professional, she had perfected her skills with practice and at 17, she was one of the top 100 on the women tennis association rankings in 2013.
The tennis player is one of the best servers in the young women tennis game and one of a few ranked best players in the Women Tennis Association Tour. She has been the talk of tennis lovers ever since she became one of the first American women to meet up top ten in the game since the fearless Serena Williams shattered the records seventeen years ago.
The young tennis player has also been ranked as one of the next generation best tennis players who has met the ranks of Sloane Stephens and Coco Vandeweghe. She became the cream of the crop after she nailed the game with Stephen Sloane in the 2017 US Open Final which enabled her to play at the quarter-finals of the Grand Slam Tournament that same year.
Madison Keys first fell in love with tennis at the age of four while she watched The Championships, Wimbledon, the oldest tennis tournament in the world. She began to aspire to be like Venus Williams and politely asked her parents for her own set of white tennis dress.
Her first step to perfecting her skills was her habit of playing randomly amongst her peers, however, she joined the Quad-City Tennis Club at seven where she further groomed her skills and started competing when she was nine. As she grew older, she moved to Florida with her mom and siblings and picked up training at Evert Tennis Academy at Ten.
Madison Keys made an impressive entrance at the Ponte Vedra Beach Championship, losing only a match in 2009. The following year, the young star kept up with her outstanding skills and it certified her for the United States Open Tennis Championship which also earned her the ITF Women's Circuit. She hit the records of being one of the youngest seven to win the Women Tennis Association Tour-Level match after she beat Alla Kudryavtseva to the title.
The 'Pro La tennis star' beat Serena Williams; the legendary tennis player who's ranked No.2 in the women's game in five games and was awarded a wild card for the Miami open. She kept her heads up high and further defeated Jill Craybas in the Grand Slam Tournament, earning her the feat of the youngest to ever achieve it, just at 16.
Keys became the first runner-up for the Charleston Cup where she lost to Kerber Angelique, she continued in her pace and was always within the range of first fifty through her game in the year 2014, however, ended the year ranking as No. 31 in the world.
Apart from defeating Williams, she also dealt mercilessly with some of the renowned professional female tennis players in the game and was ranked as No. 16 in the world after she was knocked out in the 4th round of the US Open on May 18, 2015. In 2016, Madison Keys had a career lift; she was ranked No. 7 in the world. She got her share of pain in the game after she suffered a wrist injury, this delayed a few of her games, nevertheless, she has continued to make a name.
Apart from tennis, the young star loves baking, watching football and basketball games and also has found solace in music and reading. She has dedicated her time as an ambassador to the organization named Fearlessly Girl.
Family (Parents & Siblings)
Her father never played tennis, however, he played basketball for Division III All-American College at Augustana College. He goes by the name Rick Keys and her mom, Christine. They both work as attorneys and were blessed with four girls; Madison being the second child. Madison Keys has an older sister named Sydney and two other sisters with the name Montana and Hunter. More details about her parents have been off social media, however, they are always present in their daughter's games and have been her number one fan.
Who Is Her Boyfriend?
Madison Keys and Bjorn Fratangelo
Madison Keys is among a few who prefers talking about her career instead of her personal love life, however, this has made a lot of her fans assume she is bisexual, especially with her involvement with the LGBT community.
There are records of her relationship with male tennis player Bjorn Fratangelo. Their relationship became an open gist when they were seen together for the first time in 2017.
In the light of her love interests, Keys has also been linked to having had something to do with Nick Kyrgios, however, there is no certainty that it was ever true.
Madison Keys has an athletic body build and is 5 feet 10 inches tall, weighing 66 kg which could be said to be a perfect body structure if body mass index is calculated. She measures 27-37-38 for her waist, bra and hip size respectively.
ohmar
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Unlike your normal commercial bank, investment banks do not accept deposits for current or savings accounts from us regular folk.
Instead, investment banks specialise in facilitating the purchase and sale of shares and bonds as well as helping companies list on stock markets known as "initial public offerings". This is where an investment bank will act as a broker between the company and the public to sell its initial shares.


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