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SS - Super Fight III - Darth Vader (Azronger) vs Revan (DarthAnt66)
Suspect Insight Forums :: Star Wars Versus :: Ongoing Suspect Showdowns (SS)
DarthAnt66
on April 21st 2019, 11:35 pm
Message reputation : 0% (1 vote)
The debate follows all formal and informal policies of Lucas Licensing as of September 2012, including the internal continuity rankings of the Holocron. The rules include, but are not limited to, specific parts of the following: http://www.st-v-sw.net/CanonWars/SWCanonquotes2.html#Licensing. In addition:
Feats take precedent over directly contradicted statements. A feat indisputably showing X is greater than Y overrides a statement stating Y is greater than X.
Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case will be made within the debate itself.
The opinion of authors have no validity and cannot be used unless they are explicitly accepted into the continuity.
All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.
There will be five posts maximum per side. The first post per side, not including response or sourcing quotes, will have a maximum of 25,000 original characters, the second 30,000, the third 35,000, the fourth 40,000, and the finisher 5,000. The first two posts per side must be released by 19 August 2018.
Revan and Darth Vader will fight in-character, with their morals on, and start diagonal from each other at 424 meters away in an indestructible 300 meters by 300 meter arena in the grass plains of Lothal. Their abilities are as of The Old Republic - Shadow of Revan and Episode VI - Return of the Jedi respectively.
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Last edited by DarthAnt66 on September 2nd 2020, 11:24 pm; edited 9 times in total (Reason for editing : Formatting)
Master Azronger
Moderator | Champion of the Light
Re: SS - Super Fight III - Darth Vader (Azronger) vs Revan (DarthAnt66)
on April 22nd 2019, 2:22 am
"We would be honored, if you would join us."
There's a vast wealth of evidence favoring Darth Vader in this matchup from feats of overwhelming strength to prestigious accolades and luxuriant scaling. To kick things off with a bang, I'll present by far the singular most efficient yet profound demonstration of Vader's power from this short excerpt of the Return of the Jedi novelization:
At that instant, Vader sprang up and grabbed the Emperor from behind, pinning Palpatine's upper arms to his torso. Weaker than he'd ever been, Vader had lain still these last few minutes, focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act - the only action possible; his last, if he failed. Ignoring pain, ignoring his shame and his weaknesses, ignoring the bone-crushing noise in his head, he focused solely and sightlessly on his will - his will to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor.
Palpatine struggled in the grip of Vader's unfeeling embrace, his hands still shooting bolts of malign energy out in all directions. In his wild flailing, the lightning ripped across the room, tearing into Vader. The Dark Lord fell again, electric currents crackling down his helmet, over his cape, into his heart.
Vader stumbled with his load to the middle of the bridge over the black chasm leading to the power core. He held the wailing despot high over his head, and with a final spasm of strength, hurled him into the abyss.
I love these three passages because in their simplicity is infused so many layers of greatness regarding Darth Vader. It functions as a dual feat of both durability as well as willpower in itself, and on top of that it's a tacit endorsement of Vader's canonical superiority to Revan. You see, I wasn't very impressed with the latter's performance against the Shit Emperor in his respective novel, where he got roasted on the floor in mere seconds:
The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head.
Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn't close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor's attack.
A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.
Revan's body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.
Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.
The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp.
Almost too weak to move, Revan managed to raise his head just in time to see the Emperor turn on the brave little astromech. A tremor rippled through the air as the Emperor unleashed the full power of the Force against the defenseless droid.
T3 never stood a chance. The little droid exploded into a million pieces, internal circuits and external casing obliterated in a single instant.
"No!" Revan screamed from the ground as bits of his friend rained down on him in the form of unrecognizable shrapnel.
He tried to rise, but his injured body refused to respond. Instinctively, he called on the Force to give him strength and heal his wounds.
The Emperor was approaching him with calm, purposeful steps. Once he reached Revan's side he calmly bent down and picked up the Jedi's fallen weapon, igniting the blade.
The healing properties of the Force were powerful, but Revan's wounds were severe and he needed more time to restore his strength. Helpless, he could only stare up at the Emperor as he raised the lightsaber to deliver the killing blow.
Even as she called to Scourge to help, Meetra was already sprinting toward the far end of the throne room. Scourge hesitated before joining her, taking a moment to survey the situation, memories of his vision of their failure still fresh in his mind.
What he saw was not good. Revan was being electrocuted, his body spasming uncontrollably as the Emperor blasted him with dark purple lightning.
Revan's astromech launched a jet of flame at the Emperor, freeing Revan, who collapsed to the ground. In retaliation, the Emperor disintegrated the offending droid, strode over to where Revan lay, and picked the vanquished Jedi's lightsaber up off the floor.
It all happened in the space of only a few seconds. Meetra was moving fast, but she was too far away to stop the Emperor from eviscerating the prone Jedi at his feet.
I've highlighted the relevant parts. Unpacking the first layer of Vader's eminence, we can make a comparison of durability:
"In the space of only a few seconds," Revan begins "spasming uncontrollably" and "collapse[s] to the ground" under the Shit Emperor's assault. In contrast, Vader literally walks through the Galactic Emperor's barrage for close to ten seconds never breaking stride, as seen from the movie (link	).
Revan "gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb" as well as "draw in and contain" the Shit Emperor's lightning yet the result was the same. Vader "focused solely and sightlessly on his will" "to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor" while "ignoring" everything else, meaning that he was focusing all his energy into killing the Emperor rather than defending from his attack with a proper Force defense unlike Revan, which is made all the more clear by their brachial positions: Revan's being an overt sign of tutaminsis while Vader's being bereft of any defensive gestures, indicating the only Force shield he did have was likely an instinctive, subconscious one, much weaker than an active barrier.
Revan's skin "began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting" as soon as the lightning got through his defenses. Vader, while mortally wounded as per many sources, nonetheless didn't look all that different from any of his other appearances without his helmet, indicating his wounds were less severe than Revan's despite the Emperor's lightning tearing all over his body "into his heart" and "penetrated his life-support and electrified Anakin's organic remains" according to The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader meaning that his lesser, subconscious Force barrier is stronger than Revan at his most stalwart.
The Shit Emperor continued to "pour more and more power" into his lightning even after Revan's skin "began to boil and blister," insinuating that the Shit Emperor wasn't even at full strength when Revan fell under his might, as one obviously cannot add to something that is already at its zenith; the only way to do that would be under the conditions that the Sith Emperor wasn't giving it his all in the initial clash. Vader on the other hand experienced "the full force of his Dark Master's evil lightning" (link	) whereas there is no indication whatsoever that the Shit Emperor went all-out on Revan.
In short, Vader comes ineffably better off in this comparison. Palpatine has repeatedly been stated to be the most powerful Sith Lord and dark side master in galactic history, and a catalogue of feats presents him as infinitely more powerful than even peak Failkorion (links 1	, and 2	), someone with three hundred years of growth over the iteration of the Shit Emperor whose less-than-full strength Revan succumbed to in seconds. One thing of note I highlighted earlier is how even Vader's subconscious barrier is more robust than Revan's staunchest Force bulwark. In your own blog on the matter (link	), you and The Essential Reader's Companion describe Revan's Force deflection feat against Darth Nyriss as a product of his "raw power in the Force" and conclude that the feat is representative of his strength in all areas of Force use, and I'd agree. This would logically apply to his confrontation with the s**t Emperor as well, as the text in The Old Republic: Revan compares the act to his handling of Nyriss' lightning. Following this line of thought to its conclusion, it would seem that Revan cannot touch Darth Vader with the Force in any capacity whatsoever.
Now we're getting into the second gem in the Return of the Jedi novelization: Darth Vader's willpower. The text states that Vader "focused solely and sightlessly on his will - his will to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor." Thus, it is abundantly clear that Vader's strength of will was not only a primary factor in the Emperor's death, but rather the only factor, at least as far as Vader's conscious actions go. Obviously, succeeding in killing the most godlike Force entity to have ever graced the galaxy with his presence just by willing it so is a colossal feat, only surpassed by a few in the willpower department. After all, it's not really a surprise considering what Vader could do when he was just Anakin Skywalker (links 1	and 2	): the excerpts from the Revenge of the Sith novelization in the links describe how Anakin lands the wreckage of the Invisible Hand, a physical impossibility per the narration. Anakin, however, subverts this by seizing control of the Force, and bends it to his will. Since the Force is what governs the fates and destinies of all being and the laws under which the universe operates, by outwilling the Force, Anakin warps reality itself in his image to make the impossible possible. The same thing happens in his fight with Count Dooku where in the "dream" he'd been living, "there were no rules" because Anakin isn't bound by the restrictions the Force places on everything since "between his will and the will of the Force, there is no contest" so he can do "whatever he want[s]" with the decisions in his head being tantamount to actual alterations in the fabric of reality: "He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took" after which "his blade moves simultaneously with his will" and Dooku loses his hand because "Decision is reality" as far as Anakin Skywalker goes. He willed that he should win the fight, so it happened. And no, this isn't hyperbole; I've seen people arbitrarily latch on "hyperbole" to almost everything in this book for the simple reason that "Matthew Stover." Not only is that not a valid reason, but by choosing to label something as hyperbole purely on personal whim would mean anyone could dismiss anything whenever they felt like it and debating wouldn't function. A statement is only hyperbole if you can prove its implausibility when interpreted literally. If something works literally without issue, then it is to be taken at face value. As for Anakin outwilling the Force itself, we have seen that happen previously in the mythos with Plagueis and Sidious when they pitted their willpower against that of the Force and took home a W. Plagueis in particular, since in mastering midi-chlorian manipulation he had dominated and violated the will of the Force completely and utterly, and was capable of bending reality as he saw fit without rules (link	). Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader fits into the exact same mold: his willpower is so great the Force is swept aside in his wake, and reality itself becomes subservient to him.
As far as the usefulness of willpower in combat goes, Darth Plagueis deemed that "there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will" and based on that he concluded that "If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface"; Darth Wyyrlok III believed that "it is willpower that gives the Sith their strength" and that "By sheer force of will, a Sith can achieve almost anything"; and Darth Sidious finally added that "Sith power resided not in the flesh but in the will" and that "anger, combined with will, is the key to power," deeming the combination of the two be "the greatest power" (link	). Specifically in the case of Vader, he credited the latter's feat of killing him to Vader's personal power, claiming that he was "strong enough" to do what he did (link	). Given that the act was achieved virtually exclusively through willpower, coupled with all of the above evidence I presented, it should be rather clear that willpower has a stark correlation with one's ability to wield the Force. Darth Vader's enormously greater willpower thus affords him a far higher general power level than Revan, if the durability comparison wasn't crystalline enough already.
As should have become obvious by now, the canonical superiority to Revan I was talking about is all over the feat: Vader performs better against the Emperor than Revan does against a factually inferior Sith Lord, so by extension he would logically be scaled above Revan, implicitly yet officially nonetheless. The degree of this superiority is gargantuan as well, considering all I've analyzed thus far, and it doesn't help Revan that the Emperor has expressed worry over Darth Vader's power in the Force, and George Lucas has stated Vader's strength to be about 80% of the Emperor's (link	), further validating the idea that he's not nearly as far off from his Master as many would like to believe, if Palpatine literally stating that Vader's was powerful enough to end his life and the latter surviving prolonged exposure to the maximal potency of the Emperor's power without even trying to protect himself didn't make that obvious already. The only way you can really argue Revan's victory is through lightsaber combat, but I'm convinced Vader can simply ragdoll Revan should his opponent ever manage to pressure him in a duel. That's incredibly unlikely in itself, but I'm saving their martial capabilities for later as I don't see it necessary for Vader to even draw his lightsaber as they are worlds apart in Force power.
Last edited by Azronger on May 9th 2019, 4:13 am; edited 1 time in total
Post One by DarthAnt66
on June 22nd 2019, 5:24 pm
(Originally posted on 3 August 2018. Relevant character count is 24,500.)
I. THE WEAKNESS OF INFERIORS
The number of conditions that allowed Anakin Skywalker to destroy the Emperor are not present in this matchup - nor in any other, real or hypothetical - and cannot be used as argumentation.
A. CIRCUMSTANTIAL STRENGTH
The Official Star Wars Fact File 111 wrote: It was instinct and revelation, love for his son and hatred for the creature who was killing him, that gave Anakin Skywalker the strength to return, the strength to pick up the Emperor, to absorb the fatal energy, and to hurl Palpatine to his death in the depths of the Death Star.
The above statement reveals the specific source of Anakin's strength against the Emperor was his overwhelming love for Luke and his absolute hatred for the Emperor. This circumstantial strength was only brought forth after seeing the Emperor torture his son: "Seeing his son having his life drained out of him by the Emperor clearly awoke something inside of Darth Vader" (The Official Star Wars Fact File 111). Per the first quote, without these two conditions and the context that arose them, Anakin would not have had "the strength" to replicate the deed. Unless Darth Vader is utterly overwhelmed with lust and envy after seeing Revan's luscious locks, his powers and intentions here will be noticeably distinct - and inferior
B. LUKE SKYWALKER VS DARTH VADER
The difference in Vader's standard strength and mindset to Anakin's sacrificial, son-saving, evil-destroying, Chosen One prophecy-filling act demonstrates itself through the fact Luke Skywalker is repeatedly and canonically stated to be either equal to or greater than Darth Vader in Force power during Return of the Jedi. The below statements clearly refer to combat-applicable power given they are in direct reference to the second Death Star duel.
Star Wars Beware of the Sith wrote: Although Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are equally strong in the Force, their duels are more than just about physical strength.
Star Wars Jedi Battles wrote: Father and son were now equally strong with the Force and equally skilled with their lightsabers. But this battle was more than just physical strength and Force powers.
The Official Star Wars Fact File 111 wrote: The fight this time was far more balanced. Vader discovered that Luke was his match.
Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi script wrote: Luke and Vader are engaged in a man-to-man duel of lightsabers even more vicious than the battle on Bespin. But the young Jedi has grown stronger in the interim, and now the advantage shifts to him. Vader is forced back, losing his balance, and is knocked down the stairs. Luke stands at the top of the stairs, ready to attack.
Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi junior novelization wrote: On the Death Star, Luke and Darth Vader were engaged in a duel that was even more vicious than their battle on Cloud City. Luke had grown stronger since their last encounter, and his skill with his lightsaber had improved greatly. As they swung at each other in the Emperor's throne room, Luke sensed the advantage had shifted to him.
Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi adult novelization wrote: For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City - not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.
Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi comic wrote: On the Death Star, father and son grimly clash! Brutally, aggressively, Darth Vader brings his full strength and power against the younger man. But unlike the first time they dueled in the carbon-freezing chamber of Bespin's Cloud City, this is a battle of equals. The young Jedi has grown in the interim, and if there is any true advantage, it seems to have shifted to him.
There is a popular misconception that Vader held back against Luke given, in the Courtship of the Princes Leia, Luke muses, "So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me," after being internally telekinetically attacked by Gethzerion. However, refer to the Return of the Jedi adult novelization and the Return of the Jedi comic quotes. The Return of the Jedi adult novelization highlights Vader's thoughts during the fight, and Vader himself is shocked by Luke's strength, concedes Luke might defeat him, and even feels humiliated because of such, making it clear Vader couldn't just beat Luke with the Force whenever he wished. Next, the Return of the Jedi comic explicitly states that Vader unleashed "his full strength and power" against Luke, so that's that. Not only would Vader's own thoughts and an out-of-universe, omniscient narrator take precedence over Luke's baseless assumption and reveal he is in error, but Luke is likely referring to the Cloud City fight anyway. It makes sense Luke would reflect on a fight where many sources canonically state Vader held back his powers rather than one where overwhelming primary and secondary sources testify Vader give it his all.
Star Wars Secrets of the Sith wrote: The second father-son duel took place on Emperor Palpatine's second Death Star. Now more able to control the Force, Luke Skywalker was finally able to defeat his powerful father. But he was no match for the evil Emperor.
The above quote perfectly parlays into the next point. Despite Luke's relative or superior powers to Vader, his strength was still utterly dwarfed by the Emperor.
The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader wrote: Still lying against the bridge railing beside the elevator shaft, Vader watched the Emperor extend his gnarled fingers and unleash blinding bolts of blue lightning from his fingertips. The lightning struck Luke, who tried to deflect the crackling bands of energy, but was so overwhelmed that his body crumpled to the floor.
The Official Fact Files 120 wrote: Infuriated by Luke's resilience against the dark side, the Emperor unleashed a deadly torrent of dark side lightning. Skywalker was powerless to resist the onslaught, and his life was fast draining away.
Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi script wrote: Blinding bolts of energy, evil lightning, shoot from the Emperor's hands at Luke. Even in his surprise, the young Jedi tries to use the Force to deflect them. At first he is half successful, but after a moment the bolts of energy are coming with such speed and power the young Jedi shrinks before them, his knees buckling . . . Although it would not have seemed possible, the outpouring of bolts from the Emperor's fingers actually increases in intensity, the sound screaming through the room. Luke's body writhes in pain.
Luke attempted to absorb the Emperor's Force lightning "but was so overwhelmed" and "powerless" he crumbled to the floor. As the Return of the Jedi novelization and script portray, this is clearly a pitting of Luke's Force energy against the Emperor's. The text further notes the Emperor continually intensified his Force lightning after overpowering Luke. This performance by Luke directly demonstrates how Vader would ordinarily fare against the Emperor - near-instantly overwhelmed against but a taste of his dark side powers. Funny enough, this is similar to how you (erroneously) mocked Revan versus Vitiate.
Ironic.
C. CIRCUMSTANTIAL STRENGTH, CONT.
As you already kindly quoted, "Vader had lain still these last few minutes, focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act - the only action possible; his last, if he failed" (Return of the Jedi adult novelization). So, on top of the above, Vader had gathered and focused his strength across the span of multiple "minutes" to destroy the Emperor. This renders it utterly non-applicable to combat. It baffles me how you are trying to compare the amount of energy a surprised Emperor can summon in a split-second to the power Vader can gather more than a hundred times longer. Likewise, against Revan, Vader will only have seconds, and even less when they engage, to summon such energies.
D. OBI-WAN KENOBI VS DARTH VADER
As stated in the rules, this debate follows the policy of Lucas Licensing, including that any statements by George Lucas - G-Canon - hold absolute authority and retcon any apparent contradictions in lesser sources.
Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays wrote: The idea of Vader using telekinetic powers during his fight with Luke was created during story meetings. There was concern, however, that the audience might think back to the first film and wonder why Vader didn't use all his powers on Ben; but this was easily explained by the fact that Ben was probably stronger than Vader. George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four, Luke is now at level two.
The above statement reveals that Ben Kenobi is significantly more powerful than Vader in not only A New Hope but also The Empire Strikes Back. While Luke advanced to a level two by The Empire Strikes Back, Vader remained static at a level four, indicating either lackluster growth or a vast difference between levels. Either way, there's no plausible reality where Vader not only rapidly grew stronger than Ben, but also comparably powerful to the Emperor, in six months.
Star Wars Jedi Battles wrote: This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker . . .
Star Wars Death Star wrote: Even as old and weak as Obi-Wan was, his technique was accomplished enough that a foolish move on Vader's part could still be fatal.
Of course, Vader being significantly less powerful than Ben has other consequences - namely that Revenge of the Sith Obi-Wan should likewise be more powerful than Vader even as The Empire Strikes Back. This is curious considering, according to your Sheev Palpatine respect thread: "Note: Byss' population increased by several million every single month, eventually reaching almost 20 billion. The amount of people Palpatine could feed off of, and by proxy, his rate of growth in the Force, would have been multiplied to an absolutely enormous degree."
Palpatine (ROTJ) >>> Palpatine (ROTS) >> Obi-Wan Kenobi (ROTS) > (or =) Ben Kenobi (ANH) >> Darth Vader (ESB), per the Lucas quote.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N36bCj5_Yrg
II. THE BOOK OF ANGER
This is a terribly misleading analysis.
Again, you're comparing the strength Anakin amassed across the span of minutes to the strength a surprised Emperor unleashed in a split-second across ten seconds, not to mention specifically Anakin's love for Luke and hatred for the Emperor "gave him the strength" to do it. For a better comparison, we have an amused Emperor almost immediately overwhelm Luke.
As for Revan and Vitiate, both paused and gathered their energies beforehand. Thus, the power difference was naturally exasperated, and the potency of Vitiate's lightning became greatly amplified relatively. Vitiate also began charging his energies before Revan and was boosted by the dark side nexus of both Dromund Kaas and the Imperial Citadel. Consider: If Revan absorbed all of the Vitiate's energy, it would be a direct display of parity or superiority over the Vitiate. Since Revan is albeit marginally, inferior to Vitiate, it follows that he was overwhelmed. The fact Revan absorbed enough to suffer only minor injuries that he quickly healed indicates Revan and the Vitiate were comparable in power.
Also, the "only a few seconds" quote applies to only after Revan's been overwhelmed.
Vader "focused solely and sightlessly on his will" "to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor" while "ignoring" everything else, meaning that he was focusing all his energy into killing the Emperor rather than defending from his attack with a proper Force defense, unlike Revan, which is made all the more clear by their brachial positions: Revan's being an overt sign of tutaminsis while Vader's being bereft of any defensive gestures, indicating the only Force shield he did have was likely an instinctive, subconscious one, much weaker than an active barrier.
You act like Vader lived. Revan mitigated the lethality of his attack, then collapsed due to the "indescribable pain." In contrast, Anakin managed to "ignore the pain" but still later died.
Besides, the fact Anakin ignored the pain doesn't mean he ignored all protection - shielding himself is inherently apart of "defeating the evil embodied in the Emperor." Again quoting The Official Star Wars Fact File 111, "Love for his son and hatred for the creature who was killing him gave Anakin Skywalker the strength to absorb the fatal energy," suggesting an active resistance. At the least, it's baseless to assert Anakin's slugging it with just a lesser Force barrier.
Vader, while mortally wounded as per many sources, nonetheless didn't look all that different from any of his other appearances without his helmet, indicating his wounds were less severe than Revan's despite the Emperor's lightning tearing all over his body "into his heart" and "penetrated his life-support and electrified Anakin's organic remains" according to The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader meaning that his lesser, subconscious Force barrier is stronger than Revan at his most stalwart.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpuRcmPnSTM
The fact Anakin was mortally wounded yet Revan wasn't directly means Anakin had more severe wounds than Revan. I cannot fathom what your brain went through as you thought otherwise. As to why Revan suffered second-degree burns from the heat of Vitiate's lightning and Anakin apparently did not, Vader's suit is equipped with a variety of systems that mitigate and externally release the heat of Palpatine's lightning.
Star Wars Darth Vader - A 3-D Reconstruction Log wrote: Excess heat is bled through the metal surface via radiator conduction pads, a system that preserves the helmet seal. Cooling units on the suit's collar achieve a similar but more direct result. The bodysuit is made of cushioning fabrics with an outer layer of multi-ply fireproof material. Although not armored, the bodysuit provides some protection against combat damage and exposure to flames and corrosive gases, while still allowing an acceptable range of motion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iwF7tNS3O4&t=1m23s
The statement is, "the Emperor poured more and more power into him," not "the Emperor poured more and more power into his lightning." There's a difference. The actual quote simply means Vitiate continued shocking Revan with lightning after the initial explosion of power. It's clear Vitiate reached his zenith with the first "dozen of purple bolts" given the dramatic drop in his lightning's potency - the following stream merely boiled and splintered a defenseless Revan's skin.
Now we're getting into the second gem in the Return of the Jedi novelization: Darth Vader's willpower. The text states that Vader "focused solely and sightlessly on his will - his will to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor." Thus, it is abundantly clear that Vader's strength of will was not only a primary factor in the Emperor's death, but rather the only factor, at least as far as Vader's conscious actions go. Obviously, succeeding in killing the most godlike Force entity to have ever graced the galaxy with his presence just by willing it so is a colossal feat, only surpassed by a few in the willpower department.
Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader fits into the exact same mold: his willpower is so great the Force is swept aside in his wake, and reality itself becomes subservient to him.
(azronger be writing this shit like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxIOzJrOlaU&t=4m13s)
Except what you're saying is demonstrably not true. Vader, despite willing it greatly, is unable to survive for long periods of time without his suit, to turn Luke to the dark side, to defeat Luke despite using "his full strength and power," etc. Further, if reality itself becomes subservient to him, then how did Vader even die? Are almighty Sheev's powers beyond reality times two?
And no, this isn't hyperbole; I've seen people arbitrarily latch on "hyperbole" to almost everything in this book for the simple reason that "Matthew Stover." Not only is that not a valid reason, but by choosing to label something as hyperbole purely on personal whim would mean anyone could dismiss anything whenever they felt like it and debating wouldn't function. A statement is only hyperbole if you can prove its implausibility when interpreted literally. If something works literally without issue, then it is to be taken at face value.
While I have no issue with interpreting the Invisible Hand displays like that - I figure they're momentary pulsations of his Father-level potential as his powers race out of control - it's obvious Anakin can't always bend reality to his will, which you seem to be arguing. That's false - and renders your examples hyperbole - given Anakin cannot will Padme to live nor Obi-Wan to die.
The most fundamental issue with your argument, however, is assuming parity between Revan as of Revan and Shadow of Revan. They're two completely different beasts, especially in willpower.
A. REBIRTH
Consistently throughout Star Wars, Force users have grown more powerful after returning from the brink of death. Darth Krayt did ("Death is not an ending, boy - but it is a passageway to something greater I have been through death and conquered it. I have returned with my power multiplied"). Vitiate did ("With each rebirth, he grew stronger"). Darth Maul did ("Coming back from near death may have made the Sith Lord stronger"). The same logically applies for Revan.
B. GROWTH
Directly following his resurrection, Revan's presence - a disturbance in the Force - started out "small and nearly imperceptible." However, according to the Emperor's Hand, the presence "had been growing ever larger" since. By the time Revan reveals himself four years later, his disturbance causes the Force "to roil and convulse like never before." Lana Beniko notes that his presence "exists nowhere and everywhere at once," repeating the idea Revan's passively impacting the wavelengths of the Force on a galactic scale.
C. STRENGTH
Revan, Star Wars The Old Republic - Shadow of Revan wrote: Of course, it's so obvious now. You have no idea what I am, what I've become. / You don't even begin to comprehend what I've become. / What I've become, you have no hope of stopping. I was a Dark Lord of the Sith. I was the Prodigal Knight. I was powerful--but I was also weak. Not anymore. Now I'm pure. Unburdened. I can finally have revenge on my jailer and save the galaxy doing it! I have the power, and you have nothing!
Just like Krayt, Revan has his own "I'm more powerful than ever" speech in Shadow of Revan. With the split, Revan's "hatred", "strength", and "focus" became physical Revan, whereas his "wisdom" detached and assumed a spirit. Thus, physical Revan is, truly, a "pure" and "unburdened" embodiment of Revan's power, fueled, like Darth Sion, through will alone. Spirit Revan states, "Hatred fueled cunning, but burned out all wisdom. Without me, you could not see," to which the Outlander responds, "And without him, you died. He needs your wisdom, but you need his strength. His focus," substanting the idea that physical Revan embodies his power at, admittedly, the cost of being even greater lunatic sociopath than normal.
The foremost demonstration of this is the Temple of Sacrifice fight. Revan attempted to channel the energies of The Machine to effectively destroy all enemies, including armies of coalition forces, within a one-kilometer radius. Revan lost control of the power when ambushed by the coalition strike team, and the planet-razing energies overloaded and backlashed inside of him. While Force barriers are obviously ineffective to an internal explosion, Revan willed his body to stay together as the energies visibly erupted out of him. Thus, he's clearly well beyond the domain of physical pain or second-degree burns as suffered by Vitiate in Revan, and there's no indication the dark side nexus would change the nature of the feat - it may even amplify the internal energies.
III. THE CREATION OF MONSTERS
A. VITIATE (SWTOR) >>> VITIATE (ZIOST)
Vitiate, as of the vanilla The Old Republic, is exponentially more powerful than spirit Vitiate when he consumed Ziost. The discrepancy between incarnations are shown by two massive power gaps.
1. PHYSICAL VITIATE (SWTOR) >>> SPIRIT VITIATE (SWTOR)
CHAINED PHYSICAL VAYLIN > SPIRIT VALKORION: In Knights of the Eternal Throne Chapter 3, chained Vaylin directly overpowers spirit Valkorion's time-stop [1]	, to which the Outlander either responds, "Your daughter's even stronger than you," or, "Kill her now, Valkorion!" If the latter, Valkorion reveals, "Only you can strike her down" [2]	, showing Vaylin's beyond his domain. Instead, Valkorion directly back-peddles from her [3]	and, rather than subdue her with the Force, resorts to revealing and triggering her mental conditioning [4]	.
UNCHAINED PHYSICAL VAYLIN >>> CHAINED PHYSICAL VAYLIN: Most of Vaylin's power is suppressed through extensive mental conditioning. To break this, six superweapons fired upon her [5]	. Initially, Vaylin is completely overwhelmed and agonized in a sphere of green energy [6]	. As her conditioning cracks, doctors observe, "Her power is racing out of control" [7]	, with her mere pulsations of power staggering [8]	and frightening [9]	spirit Valkorion. Once it shatters, Vaylin's shown to be completely beyond [10]	- and even directly overpower [11]	- the influence of weaponry.
SPIRIT VALKORION >>> UNCHAINED SPIRIT VAYLIN: Upon becoming a spirit, unchained Vaylin's power radically reduced from being far more powerful than spirit Valkorion to being casually telekinetically dominated by him [12]	. Note Arcann explicitly confirmed Vaylin was not chained: "He will cage you again, unless you join us" [13]	.
TL:DR: Unchained physical Vaylin >>> chained physical Vaylin > spirit Valkorion >>> unchained spirit Vaylin. Thus, there is an astronomical difference in power between physical bodies and spirits, demonstrating physical Vitiate is vastly more powerful than standard spirit Vitiate.
2. SPIRIT VITIATE (SWTOR) >>> SPIRIT VITIATE (NATHEMA)
THE RITUAL OF NATHEMA: The Nathema Conspiracy recontextualized the Ritual of Nathema, completely differentiating it from the cataclysm of Ziost. The Gravestone, an Iokath superweapon with a Death Star-esque laser, fired on and razed Nathema. Simultaneously, Vitiate, through a ten day ritual with eight-thousand Sith Lords, "consumed the life energy of every being on his homeworld," or, as described by Scourge, "absorbed those life essences through the Force," including the "millions" of inhabitants, the eight-thousand Sith Lords, and all fauna and flora of a "lust and vibrant world." Further, Vitiate sucked dry the entirety of the planet's cosmic Force - unnaturally amplified to "the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see."
THE BATTLE OF YAVIN: After the failure of a galaxy-spanning ritual and the defeat of all his Voices, Vitiate's spirit wasn't just a weakened reflection of his normal self like unchained Vaylin's - he was on "the brink of oblivion." Vitiate could not possess a single body and was forced to go into slumber on Yavin. While Vitiate fed off the deaths of the Revanite crisis, he merely "gained power enough to flee the jungle moon and survive," revealing that his spirit remained unnaturally weakened and that even thousands of casualties is a fraction of the fuel needed to restore him.
THE CATACLYSM OF ZIOST: When weakened spirit Vitiate moved to Ziost, he began to possess individuals, have them kill others, feed on the death, and expand in influence. However, Vitiate merely siphoned the death from a single city - New Adasta, per Lana Beniko, "Our former Emperor, however, has limited his involvement to the area around New Adasta - near you." This renders it impossible Vitiate even remotely replenished his spirit with just the conflict in New Adasta when his full-powered spirit is tethered with the life essence of the entirety of Nathema.
Vitiate on Ziost has to not just make up the gap between his weakened spirit and standard spirit, but also his standard spirit and his physical body, both of which are nigh-insurmountable and neither of which are compensated by New Adasta. Thus, a physical Vitiate can easily replicate and far surpass the cataclysm of Ziost, since his powers are far beyond the New Adasta-exclusive powers of weakened spirit Vitiate when he unleashed the death wave. Only after weakened spirit Vitiate consumes Ziost are his powers comparable to his standard spirit (consider: post-Ziost spirit Vitiate is roughly the same as spirit Valkorion) and, upon retaking Valkorion's host body, comparable to his former self.
(Reminder: Regardless if you consider Vitiate's possessing and feeding across New Adasta as a ritual, the point is that, even after said "ritual," he's still colossally weaker than normal. There's nothing stating nor implying the death wave itself was created by a ritual. In the past, some have pointed to similarities with the Ritual of Nathema but, as already stated, the Gravestone cleansed all life there.)
B. REVAN (SWTOR) >>> VITIATE (ZIOST)
Revan's directly in league with Vitiate as of the vanilla The Old Republic in Force power, as shown by both their physical fight in Revan and their prolonged war of wills.
1. VITIATE (NOVEL) ≈ REVAN (NOVEL)
Star Wars The Old Republic - Revan wrote: His opponent stood perfectly still, focusing and channeling his power. At the last possible instant, the Emperor unleashed a wave of energy that swept Revan off his feet and sent him flying backward. Revan twisted in midair so that he was able to roll with the impact when he landed. He quickly sprang back to his feet and advanced again, moving more slowly this time.
Star Wars The Old Republic Encyclopedia wrote: The Emperor created his first Voice after the legendary Jedi named Revan attempted to assassinate him on Dromund Kaas. Though Revan's plot failed, he approached within striking distance of the Emperor. To guard against further vulnerability, the Emperor created the Voice to deliver his orders while distancing himself from the forces that conspired against him. Centuries later, this very safeguard would save the Emperor once more.
Revan approached within striking distance of Vitiate. The fact Vitiate charged up his power as Revan crossed the forty meter walkway and did not unleash it until the last possible instant, despite the obvious risk and his fatal character flaw even being fear of death, suggests he could not have moved Revan without an unnatural amount of energy. The Old Republic Encyclopedia, as quoted above, essentially confirms such, revealing Vitiate established the Voice to guard against further vulnerability after Revan came within striking distance of him; If Vitiate could have pushed Revan away at any moment, he would not have been described as vulnerable nor in need of protection. This demonstrates Revan and Vitiate are comparable.
Star Wars The Old Republic - Revan wrote: The Emperor created his first Voice after the legendary Jedi named Revan attempted to assassinate him on Dromund Kaas. Though Revan's plot failed, he approached within striking distance of the Emperor. To guard against further vulnerability, the Emperor created the Voice to deliver his orders while distancing himself from the forces that conspired against him. Centuries later, this very safeguard would save the Emperor once more.
There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan's mind, was sent flying backward. He landed in a heap on the floor and Revan raced toward him.
Compare Vitiate and Revan's respective telekinetic attacks. Both Revan and Vitiate were unprepared for their opposing attacks and did not have the time to actively defend themselves, but each still had passive Force shields. However, while Revan's turned the potentially lethal attack harmless, Vitiate was still outright temporarily knocked out: "He landed in a heap on the floor and Revan raced toward him." Google the definition of "in a heap" - per Google, "(Of a person) with the body completely limp," per Macmillan Dictionary, "If you fall or lie in a heap, you lie without moving after you have fallen," per Collins Dictionary, "If someone collapses in a heap, they fall heavily and untidily and do not move," per Cambridge Dictionary, "To fall down heavily and lie on the ground without moving," etc.
While part of Vitiate's power was focused on dominating Revan's will, Revan likewise likely diverted a significant portion of his power to fend off Vitiate's telepathic attack. Revan wouldn't have left his mind simply unguarded - a mere brush of Vitiate's mind collapsed Scourge to the floor - and, as established in the next section, Revan explicitly requires and expends Force power to resist Vitiate. Overall, a super-charged Vitiate's telekinesis had little effect on Revan and was unable to maintain any form of control over Revan thereafter, whereas a burst of Revan's strength literally rendered Vitiate temporarily completely limp. Had the physical distance between the two been closer, it's highly possible Revan would have struck down Vitiate.
2. VITIATE (SWTOR) ≈ REVAN (SWTOR)
Revan demonstrably stayed in lock-step with any growth Vitiate achieved through siphoning Revan between Revan and the vanilla The Old Republic. Revan counteracted Vitiate's leaching by draining Meetra Surik's spirit. However, given Vitiate drained Revan through the Force link established between them, and Revan realized the link could go both ways, it is likely Revan later began to directly drain Vitiate and the Dread Masters given, by the time he's freed, he's shocked to discover Meetra's yet to become one with the Force.
Only once Revan's power finally wane at the end of the Cold War, three-hundred and seven years after the mental war began, does Meetra worry Vitiate will soon overwhelm him, stating, "The darkness will consume all it touches. Stars will burn black, ashes raining on lifeless worlds. Everything ends. The prisoner holds the darkness at bay, lost inside it for three-hundred years. His strength will fail, and he will become the darkness." Vitiate's inability to overpower Revan's defenses for three-hundred years indicates a direct correlation between mental fortitude and Force strength. When Revan was close to or at full strength, Vitiate was unable to dominate him; He only begins to succeed as Revan's Force power begins to diminish.
According to Azronger's own post, "It should be rather clear that willpower has a stark correlation with one's ability to wield the Force." Going off that idea, it's nigh-impossible to not recognize Revan's parity with Vitiate. In a direct contest of their wills across three centuries, Vitiate utterly failed to pry information from Revan's mind or turn him into Darth Revan again - his two intended goals. To quote the disbelief of the protagonist, "The Emperor had three hundred years to break this man, and he never succumbed?" Eventually, Vitiate realized Revan was outright too strong to influence and, working simultaneously with the "incalculably powerful Dread Masters, attempted to capitalize on Revan's past and split his consciousness in two: "That's why the Emperor tried so hard to split you up. Two pieces working separately aren't nearly as good as one whole, working together. / The Emperor split you apart, because you were strongest when you were together." However, even their combined might failed given the full split did not occur until the aftermath of the Foundry battle by Revan's own prerogative. Sad!
(Clarification: It's evident Vitiate didn't plan to dominate Revan after the split - Revan the Returned has far greater willpower than Revan as of the mental war. Rather, Vitiate recognized a vengeance-filled Revan would inadvertently help him by resurrecting his spirit on Yavin 4, which has nothing to do with telepathic persuasion, as stated by Arlo Grennen, "Revan is coming. I vowed to do everything in my power to stop Revan, but he does not want me to. He chose this place, he knew this day would come, knew the very core of me, everything.")
In contrast, Revan pulled "centuries of knowledge" from Vitiate (e.g. teleportation hax), subtly manipulated him into postponing a war he had planned for one-thousand years for another three-centuries, and, given the rapid development of events, presumably rather abruptly and forcefully persuaded Vitiate into initiating the Treaty of Coruscant. The final feat is enormously impressive given it shows Revan directly overriding Vitiate's most intrinsic desires. Not only did the truce halt Vitiate's meticulously planned galaxy ritual but, according to Meetra, Revan's power continually pacified Vitiate for the following eleven years the treaty was in effect: "The prisoner holds the darkness at bay." Given all this, it's sheer mental gymnastics to argue Revan's not comparably powerful to Vitiate . . . again, per your own words, "It should be rather clear that willpower has a stark correlation with one's ability to wield the Force."
Revan's demonstrably comparably powerful with physical Vitiate, who, in turn, is colossally beyond New Adasta-based weakened spirit Vitiate in power. Thus, Revan's power is on a far greater level than the power required to perform the death wave of Ziost, likely significantly stronger than spirit Vitiate even afterward (although not once he inhabits the Valkorion body). Overall, this is level of power far beyond anything Vader's ever hoped to show. It's genuinely hard to see how Revan doesn't instantly incinerate Vader here as he did Darth Nyriss.
Physical Vitiate >= Revan >>> Spirit Vitiate >>> Weakened spirit / Ziost Vitiate (>>> Darth Vader).
4. POST SCRIPTUM
Then, why did Revan need the Temple of Sacrifice?
The Temple of Sacrifice was specifically designed to restore specific spirits to physical forms. In fact, Vitiate specifically safeguarded - and likely outright created - the temple as a final safety net if ever needed, hence why his sanctuary and slumbering spirit are directly next door. Such a resurrection procedure clearly necessitates more than obliterating worlds with raw power - ritual is required. Revan's fiddling with linking incorporeal spirits, channeling specific planetary energies into host bodies, ensuring other local and hungry Sith spirits do not siphon the chaos, etc. Thus, Revan's first going to try to use this all-in-one device before he gets his hands dirty.
However, Revan doesn't "need" the Temple of Sacrifice. Even after losing the temple and all his followers, Revan was still confident in razing Yavin 4 - alone. As to how, Revan himself states, "If I have to snuff out every life on this world by hand to draw the Emperor out, then so be it!" Revan's thwarted before we get to see what he means, but his statement suggests he plans to directly substitute himself for the Temple of Sacrifice and do everything the hard way: personally "snuffing out every life on this world by hand" and cooking up the necessary rituals to channel and conjure Vitiate's physical form. After all, Revan plans to resurrect Vitiate on the Forgotten Terrace, where there's no visible extraneous aid. The point, though, isn't whether this quote alone suggests Revan's of imaginable level of power - let the rest of my argument speak to that - just that Shadow of Revan doesn't contradict the ideas already put forth - quite the contrary.
IV. SUMMARY
• Darth Vader's handling of the Emperor is circumstantial: Vader charged up his strength for minutes beforehand, and his love for Luke and hatred for the Emperor explicitly granted him the strength required to do it. However, Vader's powers are equal or inferior to Luke Skywalker's, so we can gauge Vader's standard strength relative to the Emperor that way . . . and it's not pretty.
• There is a vast discrepancy in power between Vitiate's physical incarnation and his spiritual manifestation, and his standard Nathema-absorbed spirit and his small New Adasta-siphoned spirit that unleashed a planetary death wave across Ziost. Revan's demonstrably comparable to physical Vitiate, yet alone the rest, revealing he's on a domain far beyond Vader's - which is sub-Ben Kenobi per George Lucas
Last edited by DarthAnt66 on July 13th 2019, 9:55 pm; edited 33 times in total
on July 6th 2019, 2:33 pm
The word count without including the fanfic or direct quotations from Ant or the source material is roughly 24 000 out of 30 000.
VADER'S STANDING NEXT TO SHEEV
The above statement reveals the specific source of Anakin's strength against the Emperor was his overwhelming love for Luke and his absolute hatred for the Emperor. This circumstantial strength was only brought forth after seeing the Emperor torture his son: "Seeing his son having his life drained out of him by the Emperor clearly awoke something inside of Darth Vader" (Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File 111). Per the first quote, without these two conditions and the context that arose them, Anakin would not have had "the strength" to replicate the deed. Unless Darth Vader is utterly overwhelmed with lust and envy after seeing Revan's luscious locks, his powers and intentions here will be noticeably distinct - and inferior.
You're absolutely correct; Anakin's love for his son allowed him to defeat the Emperor. However, unlike you attempt to pass off, this was not in excess of Darth Vader's standard performance, as your analysis fails to take into account Vader's prior condition.
Luke's clothes began to smolder as his body involuntarily spasmed. Suddenly, Vader realized that he was no longer concerned about his own personal future. Despite all the terrible, unspeakable things he'd done in his life, he knew he could not stand by and allow the Emperor to kill Luke. And in that moment of awareness, he was Darth Vader no more.
He was Anakin Skywalker.
It took all of his remaining strength to seize the Emperor from behind, lift him off his feet, and carry him to the open elevator shaft. The wretched Emperor continued to release lightning bolts, but they veered away from Luke and arced back to crash down upon him and his insurgent apprentice. The lightning penetrated Vader's life-support suit and electrified Anakin's organic remains, but he lurched forward until he could throw the Emperor into the elevator shaft.
Palpatine screamed as his body plummeted down the shaft. Still trapped within Darth Vader's armor, Anakin collapsed at the shaft's edge, but heard the explosion of dark energy that consumed the falling Emperor.
The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader takes into account the feelings Vader harbored towards Luke and how they transformed him back into Anakin. Despite this, the text still uses the phrase "remaining strength" to describe the power Anakin used to carry the Emperor to and hurl him down the elevator shaft. The word "remaining" implies something has been lost from the current quantity, suggesting Vader wasn't at full power when he did the feat. The Return of the Jedi script likewise states that "Vader grabs the Emperor from behind, fighting for control of the robed figure despite the Dark Lord's weakened body and gravely weakened arm," signifying that Vader was indeed operating at less-than-full capacity during this feat. Due to the script being a G-canon source, it automatically overrides any statements of lesser canonical status as specified in the rules, and you used this very same argument to claim erasure of all contradictory evidence to the idea of Ben Kenobi being Darth Vader's superior in the Force as of A New Hope, so I have the authority to do the same. Although in this case, I believe the sources can be reconciled, as the Return of the Jedi novelization states Vader was "weaker than he had ever been" minutes prior, so his paternal affection giving him additional strength doesn't clash with the idea of him being weaker than normally. All of it adds up.
Regarding your next point, according to the debate rules, if a secondary statement claims something that irreconcilably incorrect when juxtaposed with the primary source material, that statement - as well as any and all quotes repeating the same misinformation - goes out of the window. The feats of Darth Vader enduring the "full force" of the Emperor's lightning and Luke Skywalker succumbing to lesser intensity display a notable power difference between father and son. Thus, any all quotes stating the two are equals are flat out wrong. In addition to that, most accounts of the duel are riddled with context - let's take a look at the fight as it is portrayed in the novelization and the script (link	): I highlighted the portions which show that Luke was fueled by wrathful emotions almost every time he crossed blades with Vader. The only time he was calm was during an ephemeral exchange during which the two clash lightsabers exactly once, after which Luke immediately disengages and backflips onto a nearby balcony. That's literally the only time the two clash with their standard mindsets at play - and no parity can be concluded from two blades colliding once; you'd arrive at pretty zany results when that mentality is applied to the rest of the mythos. Every other instance is when Luke is enraged, so yes, he and Vader are "equally strong in the Force" and "a match" for each other and a fight between the two is "a battle of equals," but only under that specific context. The sole G-canon source which portrays Luke actively holding back throughout the entire duel yet still matching his father is the junior novelization, but according to Leland Chee and by proxy, the debate rules, the number of sources is relevant in determining which portrayal of events is accurate (link	). In this instance, we have one G-canon source (the junior novel) saying Luke was holding back the entire fight as opposed to two G-canon sources (the adult novel and the script) which claim that Luke was enraged for almost the entire duration of the duel and a C-canon source (The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader) which states that "As their duel carried on throughout the throne room, the Dark Lord sensed that Luke was drawing from his own anger to fuel his attack," so the three sources collectively outweigh the singular source. So to reiterate, normally Luke cannot stand up to the Emperor's low power output, but Vader can withstand his full potency even while weakened, revealing a vast gap between the two combatants when neither is under a circumstantial amplification. Any quote saying otherwise, per the debate rules, can safely be discarded as incorrect information.
As you already kindly quoted, "Vader had lain still these last few minutes, focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act - the only action possible; his last, if he failed" (Source: Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi adult novelization). In other words, on top of the "Applied Behavior Analysis," Vader had gathered and focused his strength across the span of multiple "minutes" to destroy the Emperor. This renders it utterly non-applicable to combat.
What? Just where exactly are you getting the idea that Vader's gathered energies would exceed his standard output? No, really, where? The text states that Vader was "weaker than he'd ever been," so focusing his power would make him stronger than that, but that's the extent of what can be gleaned from the narration. Nowhere does it state that it made Vader stronger than usual. Arguments without evidence can be dismissed without evidence*.
*BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 1
Defeating the Emperor doesn't inherently consist of protecting oneself (dafuq?); you just have to defeat the Emperor, but it doesn't matter if you die in the progress. The Return of the Jedi novelization literally states Vader "focused solely and sightlessly on his will" "to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor." That means he wasn't focusing on shielding himself, denoting a lesser Force barrier. I explained all of this in my opener, and it appears you completely ignored it and deemed my arguments to be baseless when they are not*. And nothing in the Fact File suggests active resistance, only that he gained the strength to absorb the bolts, which is still possible with a lesser Force barrier.
*IGNORING MY ARGUMENTS COUNTER: 1
The statement you quoted differentiates between the past (A New Hope) and the present (The Empire Strikes Back) by stating that Ben "was" more powerful than Vader, and that Ben "was" a six, and that Vader "was" a four, but that Luke "is now" a two. In addition, the quote states that "Ben was probably" - not certainly - "stronger than Vader" and that he was "maybe" a six. If you wish to use such uncertain language to denote an absolute fact, you'll also have to concede that Lucas has stated Vader to be "maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor" - something which you utterly ignored from my opener, for the record*. A Lucas statement from 2005 would obviously and per the debate rules retcon his ideas from 1980, so Vader would be relativistic to the Emperor regardless of his standing next to Ben Kenobi in A New Hope.
There's also the matter of feats, which override any and all quotes if contradicted, and the debate rules do not outline Lucas as an exception to this. Vader did endure the Emperor's full potency long enough to end his life while weakened, displaying relativistic power to his Master. He also fought equally with Galen Marek, who minutes after would go on to walk through the Emperor's lightning which was fueled by his "desperation," indicating the latter was using his full strength when facing Marek (link	). These feats show that Vader can withstand the Emperor's maximal power and also contend with other beings who can withstand the Emperor's maximal power. Coupled with the statements from George Lucas and Palpatine themselves, it is clear that Vader is approaching the Emperor's league in Return of the Jedi, and has been for many years prior as The Force Unleashed takes place six years before the film and Palpatine's thoughts from The Essential Guide to Characters take place prior to many things seen in A New Hope such as the title of Grand Moff and the finished Death Star (link	). Since Lucas contradicted his own thoughts from 1980, the idea of Ben being stronger than Vader as of A New Hope isn't a thing anymore, and as such, the quote from The Essential Guide to Characters is valid despite it merely being C-canon. Thus, Vader, from the available evidence, was almost always right behind his Master's tail regardless of the year, which would make sense considering that the Emperor mused in 19 BBY that "Vader's real weaknesses were psychological rather than physical" and that "he would need to do everything in his power to shake Vader out of his despair and reawaken the incredible power within him." The ways through which this would be achieved would be for Vader to "confront all his choices and disappointments" and harbor a "desire to overthrow his Master," all of which happened at the end of the novel taking place in 19 BBY and would stay with him for the rest of his life, which the Emperor noted would be a perilous prospect for him (link	). Thus, as supported by an overwhelming amount of evidence including a quote from Lucas retconning yours, Vader is somewhat close to the Emperor throughout much of his career.
Except what you're saying is demonstrably not true. Vader, despite willing it greatly, is unable to survive for long periods of time without his suit, to turn Luke to the dark side, to defeat Luke despite using "his full strength and power," etc. Further, if reality itself becomes subservient to him, then how did Vader even die? Are almighty Sheev's powers beyond reality times two?
I presume he died due to literally exhausting every last ounce of his power and will to defeating the Emperor? I mean, duh? Besides that Vader has survived through extensive periods with a malfunctioning respirator, died once, and willed himself back to life. Your claim is blatantly wrong.
The showing in question takes place in 19 BBY, keep in mind (link	), so this is practically Vader at his weakest. Let us establish that Vader survives through his suit's life support systems and willpower (link	). So when his life support malfunctions or is damaged, he has to keep himself alive solely through willpower. With me so far? Good. It just so happened that there was an instance where his chest panel got blown up and his helmet got removed, and given that these are the bulk of his life support, we can safely say it wouldn't be operational then (link	). After this point, Vader would have clung to life by simply willing it so, willing his body to keep going despite the fact that we factually know he normally would die if his life support went inactive (link	).
So now that all that is out of the way, here is the feat in its entirety (link	): Darth Vader first gets his chest panel damaged, but continues to function normally seemingly without any issue; he then goes to rest without his helmet, showing he is able to maintain his body without any life support while in a state of near-unconsciousness through sheer will (or alternatively, his drive to survive is so strong it has become instinctual, subconscious; that Vader continues to will himself to live without any conscious effort on his part, which would point to how laughably easy the feat is for him, and also guarantee that he can't be distracted from said feat, as during it he was experiencing a vision of an alternate timeline where he chose to save Windu instead of Palpatine (link	), yet he was still willing himself to live simultaneously); is ambushed and kills all his assailants with his standard efficiency while, to reiterate, not being sustained by his respiratory systems; then with his chest panel still broken, continues to operate as he usually would, survives fires and a ship crash, fights some more, gets burned with a flamethrower, is knocked unconscious, dies, cheats death by willing himself back to life, gets pissed after a post-mortem visit from his wife, tears through the labyrinth, smashing pillars and walls, tanking grenade explosions and bringing down the cathedral with telekinesis, survives being buried alive for days; all without the help of his life support. When questioned by the Emperor as to how he survived, Vader simply responds: "The dark side gave me all I needed."
If you for some reason question Garoche Tarkin's comments regarding Vader willing himself back to life, they are also supported by Lady Saro, as Garoche states. In Darth Vader and the Lost Command, Saro is depicted as an individual highly attuned to the Cosmic Force (link	), so there's no real reason to question her predictions.
Again, you are baselessly* spouting these claims. "Momentary pulsations of his Father-level potential." Laugh at my claims if you want but at least they're supported by evidence from the source material, unlike yours. Regardless, you're wrong, as later on in Revenge of the Sith Anakin feels more powerful than ever, which would include his reality-warping self (link	). The feats are entirely legitimate.
And to solidify my logic here, yes, Darth Vader in the suit has repeatedly been labelled more powerful than his pre-suit self. Firstly, we have confirmation that Vader as of A New Hope is more powerful than he was on Mustafar (link	). This would also make him more powerful than Jedi Anakin, considering the dark side is fueled by anger and hate which grants the user more power in the Force. And yes, even on Mustafar, Vader was consumed by anger and hate (link	), which did bestow him "newfound power" over his Jedi self (link	) - the quote I cited earlier also states Vader called "on the dark side to harness more power," so this idea is regurgitated among multiple sources. Any attachments he might have had he was also using to fuel his power, so it didn't hinder him at all (link	). Simply put, Darth Vader as of A New Hope is more powerful than he was on Mustafar and there he was already more powerful than he was as Anakin Skywalker. And this idea isn't just supported by one quote. Obi-Wan himself agrees with me during his confrontation with Vader on the Death Star nearly two decades later: first, when he senses Anakin's power within Vader (link	) - and to make this clear, he did not sense Anakin; he sensed Anakin's power; there is a slight but fundamental distinction - and based on this, he concludes that Vader's power has "matured" since being Anakin Skywalker (link	). More, it is stated that "from the ashes of defeat, Vader emerged even stronger." (link	). So there we have a factual basis for Vader being at least on Anakin's level as of A New Hope, but likely higher. For more proof of this notion we have a statement declaring Vader was at the height of his powers during The Empire Strikes Back (link	). Note how it does not specify suit Vader, so Knightfall is fair game, since he was Darth Vader even then. Similarly, Vader musing that his power is greater than ever in Return of the Jedi (link	) does not specify him in the suit. Darth Vader in the suit is his powerful iteration, plain and simple. It's corroborated by several objective, third person quotes, and statements from Obi-Wan and Vader himself who both have perfectly valid authority to make judgements on the Force powers of those they have felt. Thus, all of Anakin Skywalker's willpower feats are directly transposable to suited Darth Vader as well - after all, they are the exact same character, but the latter is simply a more powerful version.
To quickly answer your query as to why Anakin/Vader doesn't will Padme to life, will Luke to lose etc., the answer is simply that I don't know. What kind of an answer is that, you ask? Well, throughout Star Wars media, characters have been attributed powers and abilities that we rarely if ever see being utilized. The characters still possess the feats and accolades yet for some reason decide not to employ them to their fullest potential e.g. why doesn't Palpatine spam all his powers against Yoda or Luke despite it making perfect sense to do so? That was just one example, for the record, and this applies to Revan as well, so I'd warn against opening that can of worms. As it stands, though, Vader's willpower feats remain. Willing Count Dooku to lose his hand, willing the Invisible Hand to land, keeping his body alive through sheer willpower for days on end, willing himself back from the dead, and willing Emperor Palpatine to die are far greater feats than anything Revan possesses. As such, his command of the Force is also massively superior as I have outlined in my opener, a paradigm that you seemingly agree with. Whether Vader will use his willpower offensively isn't certain, but Revan's only hope is to pretty much just pray he won't.
Just like Krayt, Revan has his own "I'm more powerful than ever" speech in Shadow of Revan. With the split, Revan's "hatred," "strength," and "focus" became physical Revan, whereas his "wisdom" detached and assumed a spirit. Thus, physical Revan is, truly, a "pure" and "unburdened" embodiment of Revan's power, fueled, like Darth Sion, through will alone.
Proof please*. No, seriously. Where does this idea of Revan holding his body together through sheer will even come from? You've repeatedly failed at the simplest, most fundamental facet of empirical debating: presenting evidence for your claims.
This entire passage is an empty, hollow claim*. I have watched the Temple of Sacrifice fight from a multitude of videos on YouTube, and have never seen a mention or a visual of any backlash or one-kilometer blast. Show me screenshots of every single thing you just said or I won't believe a word of it and neither will the audience; arguments without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
And regarding the Yavin nexus thing, assuming that some energies did indeed course through Revan, how would the nexus amplify them? Another baseless claim*. I have never ever seen a Force nexus augment the energies of inanimate objects; if such a thing is possible, it's your burden to prove. In addition, you must also prove that the energies would only be amplified when they coursed through Revan's body, which I find a hard time believing since the energies were constantly present and within the range of the nexus, being channelled by Revan per your own words.
And to prove it, yes, Yavin IV is a hideously powerful dark side nexus during Shadow of Revan. Satele Shan states that the planet is on "another level entirely" compared to Oricon, a world "immeasurably strong with the dark side" (link	). Thus, the nexus of Yavin IV would be unimaginably powerful, and bolster Revan inconceivably beyond his normal self, rendering virtually all of his feats during Shadow of Revan - including whatever willpower thing he may or may not have - wholly unusable.
SOR REVAN VS NOVEL REVAN
Only one of your examples actually supports the idea: Darth Krayt's. The Shit Emperor became stronger as Failkorion because he had just consumed Ziost, and the details of his other rebirths aren't clear. The quote you cite for Darth Maul is not even definitive and it is the opinion of Jedi Master Salmara who hadn't even met the revitalized Maul at that point. The Clone Wars: Sith Hunters, does state quite clearly, though, that Maul was "restored to his former power," which actively contradicts your theory. Thus, you cannot draw any conclusions about Revan's power level as of Shadow of Revan compared to his novel iteration.
In fact, the spirit of Light Revan, whom you use as an authoritative figure in your argument, also contradicted the idea of Dark Revan possessing strength in excess of his novel variant. Considering that you yourself describe his darker half as a "lunatic sociopath," I'm more inclined to believe the lighter half which you yourself argued to be the embodiment of wisdom as opposed to Dark Revan being the embodiment of strength. Regardless, it's your burden to prove Revan is stronger in Shadow of Revan than in The Old Republic: Revan, since you were the one who made that claim first.
Regarding your point about the growing ripples through the Force, you haven't even proven they were caused by Revan*.
Oh, and you also haven't proven that disturbances in the Force are even directly linked to a Force user's strength rather than their other activities like Savage Opress going on a quest to find his long-lost brother Maul, which has absolutely nothing to do with his power in the Force.
TOR VITIATE VS REVAN
Vitiate, as of the vanilla The Old Republic, is exponentially more powerful than spirit Vitiate when he consumed Ziost.
Your analysis omits a crucial detail*: Ziost is a dark side nexus as per a variety of sources (link	), and thus would amplify Vitiate's spirit. You'll have to prove physical Vitiate's strength is beyond that which the nexus granted his spirit for you to have a ground to stand on in regards to claims that he or Revan can just death field a planet away. To clarify, yes, it's possible for nexus-amped spirit Vitiate to be more powerful than physical Vitiate since he would only be that powerful on Ziost. Regaining his full power would require for him to be as strong as he normally was off-nexus too, which the weakened spirit Vitiate wasn't. Nothing goes against the idea of the weakened spirit being that powerful when boosted by external factors, though.
*OUT OF CONTEXT COUNTER: 1
Vitiate's inability to overpower Revan's defenses for three-hundred years
Once again, pivotal information is being withheld from the audience by you*. Revan states that he only managed to endure as long as he did with the Jedi Exile's aid (link	). Therefore we know that he would have started losing the mental war before vanilla The Old Republic. The task once again falls to you to prove Revan would have been able to resist until close to the events of the vanilla game without the Exile's help. If you cannot prove Revan could have lasted that long on his own, no relativity to the Shit Emperor's The Old Republic iteration can be established. Revan holding his own against the Shit Emperor during the novel isn't adequate, as the latter was growing in power for three centuries leading up to The Old Republic, feeding on Revan and his other minions (link	).
In contrast, Revan pulled "centuries of knowledge" from Vitiate (e.g. teleportation hax), subtly manipulated him into postponing a war he had planned for one-thousand years for another three-centuries, and, given the rapid development of events, presumably rather abruptly and forcefully persuaded Vitiate into initiating the Treaty of Coruscant.
And unsurprisingly, this argument lacks context as well*. Revan was only able to manipulate the Shit Emperor's thoughts, once again, with the Exile's aid (link	), and even then exclusively when the latter was distracted and "intently focused on something else" (link	). It's not something he can do on his own to the Shit Emperor when he's actively fighting back.
However, given Vitiate drained Revan through the Force link established between them, and Revan realized the link could go both ways, it is likely Revan later began to directly drain Vitiate and the Dread Masters given, by the time he's freed, he's shocked to discover Meetra's yet to become one with the Force.
Nowhere is it alluded to Revan counter-drained the Shit Emperor*. It was Meetra who gave Revan the strength to resist all that time per his own admission, not any Force drain on his part. And what does him not realizing she hadn't become one with the Force after being freed have to do with anything?
BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 7
The only thing your entire post convinced me of was to abandon the point about Revan being overwhelmed by the Shit Emperor's lightning, so credit where credit is due. But honestly, that is nowhere near enough to compensate for continually and utterly failing at the single most basic rule of debating: providing evidence for your claims. It became legitimately infuriating having to constantly remind you of such an amateurish mistake. Then you outright ignored my arguments twice, and posted some incredibly sketchy scaling that would supposedly enable Revan to flick life into oblivion on a planetary scale, but virtually every piece of evidence you did post was completely taken out of context. Given your encyclopedic familiarity with The Old Republic multimedia project, I can't help but wonder if this omission of context was intentional on your part. Could you be so desperate as to resort to such flagrant dishonesty? I wouldn't rule out the possibility, honestly.
Even had every pro-Revan argument you made been utterly unassailable, you still would have come up short. Anakin Skywalker is stated by many sources - some of which are G-canon - to be the most powerful Jedi ever and in the same league as Darth Sidious as of Revenge of the Sith (link	), who is by multiple sources the most powerful Sith in history ever since The Phantom Menace. Revan as of the novel and the Foundry is a Jedi (link	), and you've failed to prove any gap exists between those variants and his Shadow of Revan iteration, so he falls under the jurisdiction of Anakin's accolades. Vitiate is a Sith, so he falls under Sidious' accolades. Darth Vader, possessing power in excess of Anakin would thus place him beyond Revan and Vitiate, regardless of how high you scale either of them. Plus, Vader's other statements and feats like equaling Galen Marek and enduring the Emperor's lightning prove he's rather close to the latter in power, further rubbing salt to Revan's wound. His feats and scaling are simply far superior, no matter what you bring up for Revan.
So Vader wins. The end.
Post Two by DarthAnt66
on July 6th 2019, 10:42 pm
(Originally posted on 15 August 2018. Relevant character count is under 30,000.)
I. LUKE SKYWALKER VS DARTH VADER
Quotes stating Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader are "equally strong in the Force" clearly establish a default position for the characters and aren't referring to any circumstantial amps. You reference the adult novelization to argue Luke was passively boosted by dark emotions the entire fight, but the film, which takes precedence in Licensing policy (the adult novelization is C-Canon, not G-Canon), shows an engagement (here)	between an explicitly light side Luke and Vader that's longer than any other segment of the fight! This is also referenced in the junior novel, photo comic, and The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader. The latter reveals Vader's thoughts during such:
The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader wrote: "You are unwise to lower your defenses," Vader said, as he brought his lightsaber up fast. With incredible speed, Luke reactivated his weapon to parry Vader's attack. Vader swung again and again, but Luke blocked each blow. Soon, Vader was breathing hard through his respirator. I can't let Luke defeat me, Vader thought. I won't let the Emperor have him!
A precise kick from Luke sent Vader over the edge of the elevated platform. Crashing upon the metal floor below, Vader roared as he felt a cybernetic cable snap in his right leg.
Thus, the "equally strong" quotes apply to standard Luke who, based on the quote I provided, demonstrably shows parity with Vader. While I shouldn't need to tell you this, sources obviously would not reference Luke's circumstantial power from a select portion of the fight to generalize his strength across the battle as a whole, and then not even make note the power was circumstantial.
Further, almost every source, including the script and Vader himself, identifies the reason of Luke's newfound power against Vader as his personal growth between Bespin and Endor, not him unknowingly drawing on the dark side: "But the young Jedi has grown stronger in the interim," "Luke had grown stronger since their last encounter," "He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel," "The young Jedi has grown in the interim," etc. The revised Official Star Wars Fact File 5 (which was published before the Canon / Legends split, so it's still apart of the Legends continuity) even states, "As father and son faced each other in a lightsaber duel, it was clear that the younger man had now developed powers that equaled his father's," outright confirming Luke "had developed" powers that equaled Vader's, confirming they're not a result of any amplifier but the product of his accelerated training. At best, Luke passively drawing on darker emotions contributed in the fight shifting from "a battle of equals" to Luke "gaining the advantage" and kicking Vader down the stairs. Fact remains, though, that Luke is at least equally strong as Vader in the Force, so my comparison holds.
(I would be remiss if I didn't make full use of my twenty dollar purchase of The Making of Return of the Jedi and note how amusing it is to see you argue against Vader and Luke sharing parity when Mark Hamill has even stated, "You should get the feeling that there's no question anymore that I'm his equal or better as far as swordsman," which the book upholds. You'll notice a consistent trend throughout of you explicitly arguing the opposite of what the creators believe.)
The flaws in your arguments are becoming apparent as you keep on trying to reconcile absurd notions together. For your idea of Vader approaching the Emperor to hold, you're arguing Luke went from being two-shotted by the Emperor to being equally or even decisively more powerful than a figure comparable to the Emperor by simply passively drawing on dark emotions. You'd expect at least one source - whether it be script, adult novel, junior novel, comic, alternate novel, encyclopedia, sourcebook, etc. - to make mention of this incredible and relevant claim, but all that exists are piles of evidence suggesting otherwise.
II. THE EMPEROR VS DARTH VADER
"All of his remaining strength" clearly refers to physical strength. The context its used in is specifically lifting up and carrying the Emperor - "It took all of his remaining strength to seize the Emperor from behind, lift him off his feet, and carry him to the open elevator shaft" - and the script you referenced as support even references that Vader's body and arm are gravely weakened: "The Dark Lord's weakened body and gravely weakened arm."
I'm amused you think Vader "focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act" across the span of "minutes" is not a big deal, yet believe Luke simply being passively amplified by dark emotions produces astronomic discrepancies in his power. Attacks unleashed in combat reflect the energies an individual can summon at a moment's notice. Vader charging up his power hundreds of times longer than normal places him at an utterly unnatural level of power. Even if we assume Vader's, in general, less powerful than normal, it still logically holds the power he wields after gathering and focusing his weakened strength for minutes far supersedes the power he could summon with his standard strength in a split second.
The Official Star Wars Fact File 5 states, "Filled with love for his son, and hatred for the monster that was now killing him, Anakin Skywalker gained the strength to restore balance to the Force by destroying his Master." Remove those two variables and Vader explicitly would not have been able to perform the feat. There is simply no evidence that Vader could have replicated it without that context at some hypothetical "full power" (remember, Vader used his "his full strength and power" against Luke and still lost, yet Luke's nothing to the Emperor).
Now, let's see which case is more convincing:
• Luke and Vader are equally strong in the Force, as stated in four sources and indicated in at least three others. Sources explicitly confirm this is the result of Luke's personal development and not passive dark emotions. Thus, since Luke was nigh-instantly overpowered by the Emperor, it holds Vader's performance against the Emperor is circumstantial, as supported by Vader charging up his power for minutes beforehand and only "gaining the strength" to defeat the Emperor upon being filled with love for Luke and hatred for the Emperor.
• Said seven sources are actually, albeit secretly, referring to only a select portion of the fight where Luke was passively amplified by dark emotions, and said amplifier boosted Luke's abilities from being far weaker to Vader to on Vader's level. The prolonged segment where Luke pressed Vader without drawing on the dark side is . . . stupid? Vader's super-charging of power and gaining of newfound strength against the Emperor doesn't make up for his significant yet unsupported weakened state. Thus, Vader's directly in league with the Emperor in power.
I'm not even sure the power of Flex Seal (link)	can fix this for you.
III. THE EMPEROR VS DARTH VADER: EXPANDED
Defeating the Emperor doesn't inherently consist of protecting oneself (dafuq?); you just have to defeat the Emperor, but it doesn't matter if you die in the progress. The Return of the Jedi novelization literally states Vader "focused solely and sightlessly on his will" "to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor." That means he wasn't focusing on shielding himself, denoting a lesser Force barrier. I explained all of this in my opener, and it appears you completely ignored it and deemed my arguments to be baseless when they are not*
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAp-HFOAf6w&t=1m31s
You do realize Vader still has to live long enough to kill the Emperor? Resistance is inherently apart of the act. It's utterly baseless to conclude he only used a passive Force barrier
It appears someone has reading comprehension issues. The statement you quoted differentiates between the past (A New Hope) and the present (The Empire Strikes Back) by stating that Ben "was" more powerful than Vader, and that Ben "was" a six, and that Vader "was" a four, but that Luke "is now" a two. In addition, the quote states that "Ben was probably" - not certainly - "stronger than Vader" and that he was "maybe" a six. If you wish to use such uncertain language to denote an absolute fact, you'll also have to concede that Lucas has stated Vader to be "maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor" - something which you utterly ignored from my opener, for the record*. A Lucas statement from 2005 would obviously and per the debate rules retcon his ideas from 1980, so Vader would be relativistic to the Emperor regardless of his standing next to Ben Kenobi in A New Hope.
Take off your tinfoil hat. In a post of dozens of points, sometimes some slip through. I didn't intentionally "ignore" your twenty percent argument. In fact, I love when members cite that. By itself, it's impossible to discern what being eighty percent of the Emperor means; we have no reference point. Is zero percent a normal human? Is fifty percent a Jedi padawan? Considering the context isn't even meant to hype up Vader - just read the full quote, as posted below - a full twenty percent difference can easily mean a tremendous gap in power. Also, it's curious you center your argument around the ambiguity of "maybe" when it's referring to Ben relative to Vader, but ignore the "maybe" in Vader being "maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor."
George Lucas, The Last Battle wrote: Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful. But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there's not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than him. So that isn't what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan.
Also, Lawrence Kasdan, who co-wrote The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi with Lucas, and therefore has intimate knowledge of Lucas' vision from extensive story conferences, notes that the Emperor is "much more powerful than Vader" in a co-interview with Lucas. So, the same person developing and writing the scene of the Emperor's death doesn't think Vader's display is indicative of him having powers comparable to the Emperor.
Lawrence Kasdan and George Lucas, Star Wars The Annotated Screenplay wrote: My sense of the relationship is that the Emperor is much more powerful than Vader and that Vader is very much intimidated by him. Vader has dignity, but the Emperor In Jedi really has all the power."
"I didn't want Vader to be all-powerful. In the first film it was very easy to make him into some kind of superhero. But I decided not to do that.
There's also the matter of feats, which override any and all quotes if contradicted, and the debate rules do not outline Lucas as an exception to this. Vader did endure the Emperor's full potency long enough to end his life while weakened, displaying relativistic power to his Master.
There is no contradiction. I think it's hilarious you don't stop and consider if you're misinterpreting events; instead, you default into arguing that almost a dozen major sources are wrong and retconned into oblivion. Are you aware all the sources stating Luke's on par or greater than Vader are the same ones you're using with Vader against the Emperor?
He also fought equally with Galen Marek, who minutes after would go on to walk through the Emperor's lightning which was fueled by his "desperation," indicating the latter was using his full strength when facing Marek (link). These feats show that Vader can withstand the Emperor's maximal power and also contend with other beings who can withstand the Emperor's maximal power.
Equally? Once Galen Marek "understands a better way to kill" and proclaims, "I don't need to hate you in order to beat you," the fight becomes completely and increasingly one-sided. The text even marks the shift: "With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot," strikes Vader repeatedly in a short span of time, then telekinetically dominates him.
And Palpatine's thoughts from The Essential Guide to Characters take place prior to many things seen in A New Hope such as the title of Grand Moff and the finished Death Star (link).
-- which doesn't suggest anything about Vader's power relative to the Emperor, considering Sheev was even "troubled by Asajj Ventress' growing prowess with the dark side of the Force." He's all about preserving his power and fearing betrayal, withholding knowledge from even the simpleton dark side adepts so that there is no conceivable way anyone could encroach him.
Thus, Vader, from the available evidence, was almost always right behind his Master's tail regardless of the year, which would make sense considering that the Emperor mused in 19 BBY that "Vader's real weaknesses were psychological rather than physical" and that "he would need to do everything in his power to shake Vader out of his despair and reawaken the incredible power within him." The ways through which this would be achieved would be for Vader to "confront all his choices and disappointments" and harbor a "desire to overthrow his Master," all of which happened at the end of the novel taking place in 19 BBY and would stay with him for the rest of his life, which the Emperor noted would be a perilous prospect for him (link).
The Emperor's optimism over Vader quickly dies off. The Emperor later writes that Vader could "never" succeed him, that he "had wanted an apprentice, not wanted a walking wound," and that he is looking through a lowly "pool of minor wizards and political sycophants" for a replacement.
Vader - The Ultimate Guide wrote: But Vader's reconstruction was a mixed blessing for Palpatine. The Emperor had wanted an apprentice - he had not wanted a walking wound. Vader was barely able to stay alive without life support machinery and the brute force of the dark side. Because of his cyborg arms, Vader would never be able to hurl Force lightning. His suffocating body armor left him unable to perform the acrobatics that had made Darth Maul into the ultimate assassin . . .
In the Emperor's eyes, Darth Vader was damaged. Palpatine secretly began looking for a replacement, expanding the ranks of his dark side adepts. From this pool of minor wizards and political sycophants, Palpatine hoped to raise the next Sith Lord.
Star Wars Jedi vs. Sith - The Essential Guide to the Force wrote: I regret Vader disappointed me early on when he allowed himself to be mutilated by Kenobi. Yes, Vader remained strong in the Force, but strong enough to succeed me? Never.
Vader's own thoughts deteriorated as well. In Rise of Darth Vader, Vader believes he will one day rival the Emperor. However, Vader eventually accepts that "he could not hope to defeat" and "had no reason to ever believe he could defeat" the Emperor. Had Vader been comparably powerful to the Emperor and grown lock-step with him, this sentiment makes little sense.
Vader - The Ultimate Guide wrote: Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever know.
The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader wrote: But because Palpatine was so incredibly powerful, and despite several attempts, Vader learned that he had no reason to believe he could ever defeat the elder Sith Lord.
Even during Return of the Jedi, Vader thought of the Emperor as literally "omniscient" and "no longer dared to even entertain thoughts of rebellion" given how powerful the Emperor had become, indicating the gap between the Emperor and Vader was larger than ever before.
Vader - The Ultimate Guide wrote: Vader, who was all too aware of the Sith "rule of two" that mandated a single master and single apprentice at any time, had his own designs on Luke. Palpatine's omniscience, however, had changed the rules of engagement. Vader no longer dared to entertain thoughts of rebellion, not when the Emperor seemed more powerful than ever before.
IV. DARTH VADER'S WILLPOWER
I presume he died due to literally exhausting every last ounce of his power and will to defeating the Emperor? I mean, duh?
Vader explicitly wants to defeat Luke, "I can't let Luke defeat me. I won't let the Emperor have him!" and invests everything he has into it, "Darth Vader brings his full strength and power against the younger man," yet is unable to, even when Luke's not drawing on dark emotions. That's confusing though - I thought Vader's will literally, and not hyperbolically, dictates reality?
Besides, I'm struggling to see how Vader "exhausted every last ounce of his will" lifting up and partially resisting the Emperor yet, in your totally non-hyperbolic Revenge of the Sith novel, Anakin's will outright supplants the Force's own: "This is, put simply, impossible. It can't be done. He's going to do it anyway. Between his will and the will of the Force, there is no contest." Does it require more will points to override the Force itself than it does to throw the Emperor down a well? Is overriding the Force, like, 7 will points, then defeating the Emperor 10 points?
Regardless, you're wrong, as later on in Revenge of the Sith Anakin feels more powerful than ever, which would include his reality-warping self (link).
You do realize this statement is still made on the Invisible Hand, directly after killing Dooku and shortly before landing the Invisible Hand - his two allegedly reality-warping displays? Besides, even if it was later in the novelization, that doesn't mean those two displays aren't hyperbolic.
To quickly answer your query as to why Anakin/Vader doesn't will Padme to life, will Luke to lose etc., the answer is simply that I don't know.
Wonderful. I'm glad we can move on from this silly argument of yours.
What kind of an answer is that, you ask?
The concession kind.
Well, throughout Star Wars media, characters have been attributed powers and abilities that we rarely if ever see being utilized. The characters still possess the feats and accolades yet for some reason decide not to employ them to their fullest potential e.g. why doesn't Palpatine spam all his powers against Yoda or Luke despite it making perfect sense to do so? That was just one example, for the record, and this applies to Revan as well, so I'd warn against opening that can of worms
Oh, wait, are you literally arguing plot induced stupidity as an actual argument?
This is not comparable to the Emperor neglecting to use a Force power in combat, it's like the Emperor directly trying to move a heavy object but being incapable of doing it. The reality-warping, on paper, occurs by Anakin simply deciding something should occur, then it occurring. For instance, "He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality." Thus, Anakin failing to will Padme to live or Obi-Wan to die, despite deciding both should occur, directly demonstrates it's either a.) hyperbole or b.) circumstantial. Per yourself, "A statement is only hyperbole if you can prove its implausibility when interpreted literally," and I've directly proven it's not only implausible, but impossible. Vader's outright unable to heal his injuries, outright unable to defeat Luke or Obi-Wan, outright unable to save Padme, etc.
V. THAT WEIRD SIDE TANGENT
Besides that Vader has survived through extensive periods with a malfunctioning respirator, died once, and willed himself back to life. Your claim is blatantly wrong.
While that's incredibly unlikely, let's go on a journey together and find out --
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlWCPVgYJZE	(listen to this as you read)
Here is the feat in its entirety (link): Darth Vader first gets his chest panel damaged, but continues to function normally seemingly without any issue; he then goes to rest without his helmet, showing he is able to maintain his body without any life support while in a state of near-unconsciousness through sheer will; is ambushed and kills all his assailants with his standard efficiency while, to reiterate, not being sustained by his respiratory systems
Per Darth Vader - A 3-D Reconstruction Log, "The patient can remove the armor and bodysuit, but if the surrounding air isn't oxygen-rich and free of contaminants he will die." In other words, Vader's able to rest without his helmet in completely sterile and oxygen-rich environments, which his personal living quarters would be. Otherwise, there's no reason why Vader would needlessly sleep through sheer will and potentially die when he has a mask.
Then with his chest panel still broken, continues to operate as he usually would, survives fires and a ship crash, fights some more, gets burned with a flamethrower
Do you even know what the chest box does? No, I assume you don't. The chest box monitors and regulates Vader's systems, but the systems themselves operate independently and are located at other places throughout the suit. Your repeated mentioning of it is pointless.
Is knocked unconscious, dies, cheats death by willing himself back to life
You're joking, right? The comic literally shows what happens - Vader's overwhelmed by two flamethrowers and stunned unconsciousness. The next page, Vader awakens from that experience. There's no possible way Vader died from that - a ray gun's not even a lethal weapon. Tarkin's statement is obviously not literal - his next line is even, "And she won't let me kill you as long as she thinks you can still be turned to our case," which doesn't make sense to say to someone who literally just willed themselves from chaos back to the physical realm.
Gets pissed after a post-mortem visit from his wife, tears through the labyrinth, smashing pillars and walls, tanking grenade explosions and bringing down the cathedral with telekinesis, survives being buried alive for days; all without the help of his life support. When questioned by the Emperor as to how he survived, Vader simply responds: "The dark side gave me all I needed.
Yes, we're all aware of the impressive willpower showing - Vader's able to survive for days without his machinery. That doesn't address my point Vader's factually and demonstrably unable to live for long periods of time without his machinery. Given you're arguing Vader's will dictates reality, why does Vader have to live with his machinery at all? Why can't Vader simply will his injuries to go away and survive indefinitely as an unburned man. Instead, "His efforts to heal his shattered body through the Force were humiliating failures."
VI. ANAKIN SKYWALKER VS DARTH VADER
And to solidify my logic here, yes, Darth Vader in the suit has repeatedly been labelled more powerful than his pre-suit self.
George Lucas has explicitly stated pre-suit Vader's more powerful than post-suit.
George Lucas, Cult of Darth Vader wrote: And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.
Per Lucas, because of the injuries Vader suffered on Mustafar, "From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor." This indicates both that pre-suit Vader was as strong as the Emperor, and that post-suit Vader never again achieved such a level of power. The latter is informed through the following:
Consider the statement, "From then on, Bob wasn't as good a painter as Bill -- he was like Rob or Jan." The statement is about Bob's painting skills, and parallelism to Rob and Jan are presented as apart of the same sentence. We can infer the statement is comparing Bob's painting skills to Rob or Jan, not that it's stating that Bob, like Rob or Jan, aren't as good as Bill. The latter option is a tangent with no direct relevance to the immediately preceding context. The same logic applies for "From then on, Vader wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku." Lucas is discussing Vader's strength and notes that he's not as strong as the Emperor. Still discussing strength, Lucas compounds that notion by saying Vader's strength is now like Maul or Dooku. We can infer that Lucas isn't just randomly noting that Maul and Dooku also aren't as strong as the Emperor - a self-evident fact - in a paragraph all about Vader's strength. That would be completely off-topic. Rather, Lucas is clearly using Maul and Dooku as a reference point for Vader's new powers. That's the only realistic way to interpret it.
Thus, post-suit Vader's around Maul or Dooku, two characters who are far, far less powerful than even the Emperor in Revenge of the Sith, let alone Return of the Jedi.
Oh, by the way . . .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2c6lf4P0Vtw&t=1m25s	to two minutes, two seconds.
In The Making of Star Wars Return of the Jedi, George Lucas himself validates every argument I've made thus far. "Vader is not powerful enough to kill the Emperor," but is able to "out of the super energy of wanting to protect his son." So much for that idea Vader's weakened when he's described as having literal "super energy" relative to his normal sense. How does it feel to be wrong about literally everything you wrote?
VII. REVAN'S WILLPOWER
Where the hell does this idea of Revan holding his body together through sheer will even come from?
All accounts suggest Revan legitimately died on the Foundry. The Emperor and the Dread Masters worked extensively to split Revan's consciousness (link)	, amplifying his contrasting identities and dual devotions to the light and dark side (link)	. However, they were incapable of finishing the split. Spirit Revan reflected, "My actions were those of a madman, consumed by rage" (link)	, confirming Revan's lighter and darker halves were still joined during the Foundry.
Per spirit Revan, "When I died, I had come to terms. I was ready to become one with the Force, but I soon realized that was only what part of me wanted" (link)	, and, "When the Emperor's followers struck me down, I learned to release my attachments" (link)	, revealing both that Revan was "struck down" and "died", and that there was a buffer period between dying and becoming a spirit: "When [he] died," the lighter Revan was "ready" to become a spirit but "soon realized" the darker Revan was not. This time gap is also noted by dark Revan, "I was dead - for all of a blink" (link)	.
The Life and Legend Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote: After Anakin died in his son's arms, Obi-Wan called out into the void, "Anakin."A moment later, Obi-Wan heard a familiar voice return from the darkness.
"Obi-Wan? Master, I'm so sorry. So very, very -"
"Anakin, listen carefully,"Obi-Wan interrupted. "You are in the netherworld of the Force, but if you ever wish to revisit corporeal space, then I still have one thing left to teach you. A way to become one with the Force. If you choose this path to immortality, then you must listen now, before your consciousness fades."
This is explained by, after death, beings first go to the netherworld of the Force. From here, their consciousness either fades or becomes a spirit - given sufficient power and knowledge. However, as stated, the darker Revan did not want to become "one with the Force" with light Revan; instead, he fully separated himself from his other half (link)	and returned from the dead.
The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote: Palpatine was forced to survive in the maddening, bodiless existence of the void. Through sheer will he retained his identity, crossing the gulf of space to again take up residence in his clone body.
There is precedent for this with Palpatine, who ended up in the netherworld, only to return through sheer will. The distinction is Revan reassumed control of the body struck down on the Foundry - a corpse - meaning he must animate it himself, hence spirit Revan stating, "You've carried on, dragging the remains of a body that should have long since faded to dust" (link)	.
To summarize, Revan is killed on the Foundry and goes to the netherworld of the Force. The lighter part of Revan's consciousness wants to become a spirit, but the darker half doesn't, instead separating his being and returning to the physical realm through sheer willpower.
I have watched the Temple of Sacrifice fight from a multitude of videos on YouTube, and have never seen a mention or a visual of any backlash or one-kilometer blast. Show me screenshots of every single thing you just said or I won't believe a word of it and neither will the audience.
Calm down. I'm getting strong https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzjQaOmEzqQ	vibes. I absolutely do not buy you've never seen any quotes pertaining to the one kilometer-radius blast before. It's constantly mentioned in Revan versus threads, including my debates with The_Ellimist - which you were actively involved in and even wrote rebuttals to. It never once dawned on you to check my Revan respect thread, where the quotes would obviously be found? No, you clearly have, which makes me wonder why you didn't just address the argument head-on rather than stall an extra post and write an amusing overreaction.
Anyway, Revan channels the energies of The Machine to devastate all life in a one-kilometer radius, with his pulsations of power during the channel already afflicting all in the radius. The strike team attacks Revan (link)	, making the energies "overload" or "backlash" inside of Revan. Any conventional Force user would die if a kilometer-spanning energies released within them; internal organs aren't coated with a Force shield. Revan surviving suggests his body is tethered to his will, not biological function, substantiating spirit Revan's statement that, "You've carried on, dragging the remains of a body that should have long since faded to dust" (link)	.
And regarding the Yavin nexus thing, assuming that some energies did indeed course through Revan, how the hell would the nexus amplify them? Another baseless claim*. I have never ever seen a Force nexus augment energies of inanimate objects; if such a thing is possible, it's your burden to prove. In addition, you must also prove that the energies would only be amplified when they coursed through Revan's body, which I find a hard time believing since the energies were constantly present and within the range of the nexus, being channelled by Revan per your own words.And to prove it, yes, Yavin IV is a hideously powerful dark side nexus during Shadow of Revan. Satele Shan states that the planet is on "another level entirely" compared to Oricon, a world "immeasurably strong with the dark side" (link). Thus, the nexus of Yavin IV would be unimaginably powerful, and bolster Revan inconceivably beyond his normal self, rendering virtually all of his feats during Shadow of Revan - including whatever willpower thing he may or may not have - wholly unusable.
I'm baffled by the first four sentences; I have no clue what you're even responding to. As for your dark side nexus argument, it doesn't make sense. The omnipresent dark side energies of Yavin 4 would be included in Revan's channel of energy. The "inconceivably powerful" nexus energies would likewise be apart of the "overloading" or "backlashing" against him.
VIII. REVAN'S POWER GROWTH
Only one of your examples actually supports the idea: Darth Krayt's.
Wonderful. I'm glad you agree my case has historical precedent then.
The Shit Emperor became stronger as Failkorion because he had just consumed Ziost, and the details of his other rebirths aren't clear.The quote you cite for Darth Maul is not even definitive and it is the opinion of Jedi Master Salmara who hadn't even met the revitalized Maul at that point. The Clone Wars: Sith Hunters, does state quite clearly, though, that Maul was "restored to his former power," which actively contradicts your theory. Thus, you cannot draw any conclusions about Revan's power level as of Shadow of Revan compared to his novel iteration.
Shadow Conspiracy explains, "Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he'd been in Sidious's presence, before the Neimoidian invasion of Naboo had turned disastrous and Obi-Wan had bested him inside the Theed power core. His hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Umbara, his restoration by Mother Talzin, and his training of Savage had all strengthened him, made him a more worthy vessel for the Dark Side to fill with its power." Thus, even though Maul only had his former strength by Revenge, his overall connection to the Force still deepend through his near-death ordeal, making him a more worthy dark side vessel.
Vitiate's rebirths are admittedly too ambiguous to draw conclusions from for a formal debate, but Krayt and Maul are the two closest examples to Revan's predicament and both had their powers explicitly increase as a result. Dark Revan's statements, such as, "I've been reborn. My mind is clearer, my power intensified" (link)	, are even almost line-by-line identical to Krayt's own, and Revan's obviously capable of gauging his strength relative to before.
In fact, the spirit of Light Revan, whom you use as an authoritative figure in your argument, also contradicted the idea of Dark Revan possessing strength in excess of his novel variant. Considering that you yourself describe his darker half as a "lunatic sociopath," I'm more inclined to believe the lighter half which you yourself argued to be the embodiment of wisdom as opposed to Dark Revan being the embodiment of strength.
The below quote (click)	(click)	clarifies spirit Revan's statement. Dark Revan's "strength" and "focus" is misdirected and useless without spirit Revan's "wisdom to guide it." Such has far more to do with character wellbeing and control than anything power related. Observe that the Outlander still explicitly identifies dark Revan as possessing the "strength" and "focus."
Spirit Revan and the Outlander, Star Wars The Old Republic - Shadow of Revan wrote: "Hatred fueled cunning, but burned out all wisdom. Without me, you could not see."
"He needs your wisdom, but you need his strength. His focus. / Strength is useless without wisdom to guide it."
Regarding your point about the growing ripples through the Force, you haven't even proved they were caused by Revan* Oh, and you also haven't proven that disturbances in the Force are even directly linked to a Force user's strength rather than their other activities like Savage Opress going on a quest to find his long-lost brother Maul, which has absolutely nothing to do with his power in the Force.
Lana Beniko pinpoints specifically Revan as the source of the disturbance (link)	.
Also, no, since The Clone Wars Episode Guide is recounting the events seen in Revenge, it's clearly referring to Dooku and Anakin Skywalker sensing Savage Opress' presence. Dooku explicitly makes note this is power related, "I can sense him, Grievous. That creature, Savage Opress, is growing stronger and stronger as each day passes" (link)	. Likewise, "Anakin senses a disturbance in the Force - the return of something sinister" (link)	, meaning he likewise senses Savage, which makes sense given he's at the same diner Savage was just at.
As to what distinguishes Revan's feat from Savage's, Savage's ripples appear to only be felt by those with past connections to him (i.e. Dooku, Anakin, and Asajj Ventress), whereas Revan's is obviously of far greater scale and impact (e.g. "The Force roils and convulses like never before," "It exists nowhere and everywhere at once," "That tapestry has become flawed," etc.).
IX. VITIATE VERSUS REVAN
No, my analysis factored that in. As I stated, during the ritual of Nathema, "Vitiate sucked dry the entirety of the planet's cosmic Force - unnaturally amplified to 'the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see'." Thus, Vitiate's standard spirit already possesses the totality of a dark side nexus explicitly far more potent than Ziost. Any boost weakened spirit Vitiate received from simply being in the presence of the Ziost dark side nexus doesn't remotely compensate.
That aside, no dark side nexus has ever shown the effects you are describing. You're essentially arguing character X can go from being one-shotted by character Y (spirit unchained Vaylin versus spirit Valkorion) to likely one-shotting character Y (physical unchained Vaylin versus spirit Valkorion) by simply being on a moderately potent dark side nexus.
Revan states that he only managed to endure as long as he did with the Jedi Exile's aid (link). The task once again falls to you to prove Revan would have been able to resist until close to the events of the vanilla game without the Exile's help. If you cannot prove Revan could have lasted that long on his own, no relativity to the Shit Emperor's The Old Republic iteration can be established.
Revan states, "She gave me strength to resist all this time," which is absolutely true. However, you ignore that Vitiate was actively Force draining Revan. Without an energy source to counteract the drain, Revan's powers would quickly deplete, rendering him incapable of defending against Vitiate's constantly-replenishing powers. Meetra explicitly functioned as that counterbalance: "As the Emperor fed off him, Meetra was allowing Revan to feed off her."
Meetra's stream of energy "refreshed" and "restored" Revan "whenever he grew weak," meaning Meetra's not amplifying Revan's powers, just returning them to its natural state. Meanwhile, Vitiate is, according to you, growing continuously stronger. Thus, it must be Revan's own growth, clearly brought forth through nigh-endless usage of Force and exertion of will, that allows him to remain in lock-step with Vitiate. Otherwise, the power discrepancy between an equalized Revan and strengthening Vitiate would constantly expand until Vitiate's powers far surpassed and completely overpowered Revan's.
I explicitly stated Revan "subtly manipulated him," so it baffles me why you still flaunt, "This argument lacks context." The link you posted explains why Revan required Meetra's aid - as detailed above, she counteracted Vitiate's Force drain. Meetra was not involved in the mental war, although the Dread Masters actively aided Vitiate in attempting to crush Revan's mind.
X. THE NEW GOODS
A. LORD VIVICAR
Lord Vivicar, possessed by Terrak Morrhage, unleashes a Sith plague on the Jedi Order. Per plague victim Yuon Par, "The plague created a link between my mind and his." According to overwhelming first-hand testimony, Vivicar then outright telepathically enslaves the linked Jedi through his own will: "I could feel someone else in my mind. Polluting my thoughts, twisting them," "Lord Vivicar twisted my mind," "I saw what Lord Vivicar was able to do to Master Yuon. I'm not surprised he was able to twist your thoughts as well," etc. Further, Nomi Sunrider notes, "It's most like mind control," and Wole Vahn says, "It's most like the Jedi trick of persuading weak minds through the Force, except Yuon's tormenter is distant, and her mind hardly weak." For a visual example, here's Vivicar overpowering Par's will after the Barsen'thor drops his shielding technique: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgHCL4o5Y5I&t=2m40s	. These Jedi were so intricately linked to Vivicar that, if he was killed, they would all die as well. Vivicar "drew on their strength to fuel his own power," with the afflicted Jedi "losing strength, fading fast."
Vivicar reveals that he's bound hundreds of Jedi to him, "The plague binds these Masters to me. Hundreds of them - the heart and soul of your order," a number reaffirmed by Syo Bakarn if you strike Vivicar down, "We have reports from across the galaxy. Dozens of Masters have died from the plague, maybe hundreds." Dare I suggest a Sith Lord capable of dominating the minds of hundreds of Jedi and siphoning their powers might be comparable to Maul, Dooku, or Vader?
B. ACT ONE BARSEN'THOR
The Barsen'thor was immeasurably weakened when he confronted Lord Vivicar. The Barsen'thor learned a technique that shields Jedi from Viviar's influence, but it requires him to permanently expend a significant portion of his power each time its applied until Vivicar is destroyed: "Each time you use the technique, it will cost you some of your own strength. / The shielding ritual will draw on your strength, and you can only regain what you've spent when the plaguemaster's bond with his victims is broken." This decrease in power is observed by every Jedi he saves: "But why do you look so weak?" (link)	, "You've saved me. At great cost to yourself, I can feel it. I am truly sorry" (link)	, "Wait, you, you-you look pale. Are you alright?" (link)	, "You look so weak. It's taken a lot of of you" (link)	, "My mind is clear again. And you're weak" (link)	. In total the Barsen'thor uses the technique seven times over: Yuon Par, Cin Tykan, Duras Fain, Laranna Fain, Eriz Vossan, Sidonie Garen, then again Yuon Par.
Nevertheless, the Barsen'thor still defeats Vivicar in direct battle, then uses his shielding technique to overwhelm and free Viviar from Terrak Morrhage's influence, overpowering his link to all the Jedi simultaneously. Upon this, all the Jedi "sensed a massive shift in the Force," and Master Bakarn notes, "Jedi across the galaxy are reporting an improvement in their condition."
So far, we have: Act One Barsen'thor >>> Weakened Act One Barsen'thor >> Vivicar = telepathically dominating and siphoning hundreds of Jedi.
C. CHILDREN OF THE EMPEROR
Aelan Kalder, Child of the Emperor, displays comparable powers to Barsen'thor as of Act Three. Kalder largely resists Barsen'thor's telekinetic attack, then sends him and his companion flying dozens of meters back with Force lightning (link)	. While Kalder's ultimately defeated, his performance indicates he's superior to Act One Barsen'thor, yet alone Lord Vivicar.
D. THE FIRST SON
Blaesus, another Child of the Emperor in a similar position to Kalder, notes, "I can't even comprehend the power [the First Son] wields." The First Son conceals the presence of hundreds of Children across the galaxy simultaneously. Upon learning this, the Barsen'thor responds in disbelief, "One man couldn't hide hundreds of infiltrations from an entire galaxy of Jedi."
The First Son codex, Star Wars The Old Republic wrote: The Jedi remained blind to the Emperor's children due to the presence of the First Son, the being who was first imprinted with the Emperor's power. While the First Son lived, the Emperor's secret army remained hidden and undetected beneath the Republic's nose. By the time of the Great War, hundreds of the Emperor's Children were embedded within the Republic. Devoted Jedi, loyal soldiers, and influential politicians all unknowingly served as the Emperor's spies and, when the Emperor willed, acted to tear down the Republic they held so dear.
Note that, along with concealing hundreds across the galaxy, the First Son literally sat on the Jedi Council for decades, yet no one suspected anything. For reference, when Darth Zannah in Rule of Two infiltrated the Jedi Temple, she "doubted she could maintain the illusion that shielded her dark side powers from detection any longer than that," i.e. "a few days at most."
E. ACT THREE BARSEN'THOR
By the end of Act Three, the Barsen'thor's grown enough to overpower the First Son, even after fighting through two Children before the fight (link)	: "In a climactic final battle with the galaxy at stake, these two masters of the Force cross sabers. The Consular ultimately defeats the First Son and emerges victorious" (The Old Republic Encyclopedia).
F. THE DREAD MASTERS
The Dread Masters telepathically dominated the Barsen'thor to his knees from across the galaxy while simultaneously temporarily disabling the Thranta-class corvette he was on (link)	. The Barsen'thor would ultimately require large strike teams to defeat even one Dread Master.
G. REVAN
Revan states, "So many centuries, the Emperor and his Dread Masters, trying to wrench me apart," indicating the Dread Masters were present for most of the mental war. Despite centuries of effort, their powers specifically manifesting through telepathy, and having Vitiate himself working alongside them, they failed to dominate Revan. Given Revan's relativistic powers to Vitiate (as proven early), the Dread Masters must just be utterly insignificant to the equation or else they would have tipped the balance. This idea's substantiated by the Outlander noting almost exactly that, "Even their combined power was insignificant compared to the Emperor."
Revan >>> Dread Masters >>> Act Three Barsen'thor > First Son >>> Children of the Emperor > Act One Barsen'thor >>> weakened Act One Barsen'thor >> Lord Vivicar = telepathically dominating and siphoning hundreds of Jedi.
If Revan alone telepathically subjugated and drained hundreds of Jedi, I'd use that to directly demonstrate superiority to Vader. The fact Revan scales astronomically beyond such power makes it clear he's in the league with the best of the best, which Vader (clearly) isn't.
You have no pieces left on the board. Your starting lightning argument analyzing Revan to Vader is utterly unsalvageable. For one, you've outright conceded on the comparison to Revan's tutaminis, which was essentially half your starting argument: "The only thing your entire post convinced me of was to abandon the point about Revan being overwhelmed by the Shit Emperor's lightning." The other half has been methodically debunked at every stage. The only "positive" takeaway from Vader thus far is that he shares parity with Maul or Dooku.
Vader's strength is explicitly, repeatedly, and indisputably confirmed to be on par with Luke's, whose powers are completely dwarfed by the Emperor's own. Vader killing the Emperor can be easily explained by the number of circumstances present. First, Vader supercharged his power across the span of "minutes." Second, Vader only kills the Emperor "out of super energy of wanting to protect his son." Third, Vader catches the Emperor completely off-guard. Fourth, Vader's armor has both insulation specifically made to counter Starkiller's Force lightning and systems that mitigate and release extreme heat. Fifth, despite all of this, Vader still f***ing died.
Meanwhile, I've shown Revan possesses powers far greater than those that mind controlled and leeched the powers of hundreds of Jedi, concealed the presence of hundreds of dark side infiltrators from the Jedi, dominated a Jedi Master who's beyond the two aforementioned feats from across the galaxy, and outright razed the surface of a planet. Your only rebuttal to the Ziost scaling was, laughably, noting a dark side nexus, and you even stated, "If you cannot prove Revan could have lasted that long on his own, no relativity to the Shit Emperor's The Old Republic iteration can be established," meaning that, if I prove the legitimacy of the mental war, Revan's thereby "relative" to the Emperor and directly scales from Ziost, which I did.
I would recommend changing this to Darth Malak versus Vader, but even that's likely not fair.
Last edited by DarthAnt66 on July 13th 2019, 11:15 pm; edited 20 times in total
on July 8th 2019, 3:41 am
I barely got this post under 35000 characters, so I was forced to leave out some things like Revan's growth to save space. If it becomes relevant again, I'll address it in my fourth post, but for now I felt like it wasn't important compared to the other topics.
Also, I hope all the links work as intended. Alert me if something is off and I'll try to fix it.
I. THE PHANTOM REVAN
A) PLANET EATER
Since when has "largest" been synonymous with "most potent"?* The Old Republic Encyclopedia's description of the ritual nexus only denotes its size, not its potency. It's amusing how #teamswtor still can't get a grasp on such a simple concept as… words.
You're baselessly assuming that Ziost is only "moderately" powerful when in reality its potency is undefined.* And no, my argument has historical precedent: the Valley of the Jedi was a Force nexus powerful enough to enable Jerec to "achieve near-omniscience, or even destroy a star" (link	).
And even if my suggestion had no historical precedent it would not be invalidated. You're committing the fallacy of appealing to ignorance* by asserting that my suggestion is false because it has not been proven true. In a reality where my suggestion had no evidence backing it it would still not be false but merely unknown, and as such, you would be unable to conclude anything either way.
*FALLACY COUNTER: 1
Now, to make my argument perfectly clear, I am not claiming Ziost necessarily is potent enough to elevate spirit Vitiate above his corporeal counterpart, so you cannot shift the burden of proof on me. I am merely pointing out the fact that because the nexus' intensity is unquantifiable, your claim that Ziost is less potent than the Medriaas nexus the Shit Emperor assimilated into his being falls apart. Arguments without evidence can be dismissed without evidence, and yours has none.
Addendum: You've destroyed your own case by posting the scan about Revan's machine core backlash, which stated that he was "Stunned and unable to act" after it blew in his face. If a blast only capable of dealing "massive damage to enemies within 1km" - and possibly much weaker than that, as I'll soon explain - is enough to push a stupendously amped Revan to his limits, I wonder how unamped base Revan could ever be scaled anywhere near, much less above, this:
You tell me.
B) WILLPOWER
I absolutely do not buy you've never seen any quotes pertaining to the one kilometer-radius blast before.
I obviously had seen the statements in your RT and elsewhere, but the point I was making is that I had never seen them in the actual game. It wasn't some shady stalling tactic that I started to legitimately question their authenticity for not seeing them appear anywhere in the dozens of videos I had watched about Shadow of Revan.
I'm equally baffled by your entire argument because it makes even less sense. You argue that the energies Revan channeled would also be affected by the Yavin nexus, balancing out Revan being amped. But the blast had the intensity to ravage life in a one-kilometer-radius on Yavin IV, so if we remove the nexus, it would not have been nearly as potent. Thus, Revan tanking it would have, aside from being far less impressive, been indeterminate. And if we remove the nexus amp from Revan, then there's no proof he could even have tanked it at all as he was pushed to the edge of his strength even when amped to high heavens.
Not to mention that the attack would only have been that potent "upon successful completion." Since Revan's channel was broken before that happened, the backlash wasn't as intense, and the thus whole feat is entirely unquantifiable.
C) REVAN VS THE SHIT EMPEROR
I didn't ignore anything. If Meetra is constantly "refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war," and Revan had his powers constantly return to their natural state as you yourself state in your next paragraph, then at best it proves he can resist the Shit Emperor for an unspecified amount of time after which his mind is restored to his peak capacity by Meetra. You have absolutely no proof Revan could have endured for 300 years without having his mental powers continually renewed to their maximum.
The Exile repeatedly states that Revan's "strength will fail," which would not happen if he were growing more powerful continually (link	). His success, aside from having his psyche repeatedly revitalized as explained above, is simply explained by the Shit Emperor's incompetence with telepathy similar to Corran Horn being unskilled in telekinesis. In a normal confrontation, Failkorion utterly lays waste to the Outlander (links 1	and 2	), yet admits to being incapable of mentally enslaving him (link	). The Outlander resisted Failkorion, yet wasn't anywhere close to being as powerful otherwise. Thus, Revan resisting the Shit Emperor doesn't prove he is on the latter's level either.
Seeing as you didn't address Revan counter-draining Vitiate at all, I assume it's a concession, then.*
*CONCESSION ACCEPTED COUNTER: 1
D) TELEPATHY
Dare I suggest a Sith Lord capable of dominating the minds of hundreds of Jedi and siphoning their powers might be comparable to Maul, Dooku, or Vader?
You've proven that Morrhage created a link between himself and hundreds of Jedi, but you're hastily jumping to an unvalidated conclusion by claiming that he actively dominated them all at once.* Yuon Par had noted some time before the Consular storyline began that she'd been ill, and after she finally succumbs to the sickness, Syo Bakarn notes that she is "resting comfortably" (link 1	and 2	). Once the player arrives at the hospital, however, Yuon is seen rambling (link	), but later on Attros Finn notes how there have been no more outbursts like that (link	). When Yuon is being mind controlled and starts rambling again, Attros tells the player that she was placid beforehand, and that the outburst came all of a sudden without warning (link	). The fact that there are periods of calmness proves Morrhage isn't dominating the plague victims continuously. The best we've seen from him is controlling one individual at a time, and so that's the most Revan scales above.
II. ATTACK OF THE APPRENTICE
A) THE CORELLIAN CORVETTE
On Raxus Prime, the Apprentice encounters a massive ship that's blocking his access to the junk Jedi Temple, and notes that he would take hours to run around it on foot (link	) - consider how fast Force users can go when they augment their speed with the Force, and a picture of the ship's size may begin to form in your head. To solve his conundrum, he instead supercharges the engines with lightning and moves the entire bulk of the ship out of the way (link	). Essentially, the Apprentice's lightning generated enough joules for the corvette to move the same distance in seconds/minutes that would've taken the Apprentice's Force augmented speed hours, and had enough residual potency for the ship to have moved dozens of seconds even after that.
B) KAZDAN PARATUS
On Raxus Prime, the Apprentice confronts an army of droid golems which he forms a hurricane out of (link	). Note that these are not your typical droids, but puppets animated by Kazdan Paratus' Force abilities (link	). Through Paratus, the droid golems were able to utilize telekinesis, Force shield and Force drain (link	), making them basically identical to typical Force users. It would not be inaccurate to say that the Apprentice outright ragdolled a bonafide army of Force users numbering in the "thousands," which were capable of holding off the forces of the Galactic Empire for years (link	). After disposing of Paratus' minions, the Apprentice comes face-to-face with the Jedi, and ragdolls him too (link	).
C) THE FAUX JEDI TEMPLE
After his fight with Kazdan Paratus, the Apprentice muses how he could level the Jedi's junk Jedi Temple with a single Force push (link	). The Temple was stated by Juno Eclipse to look exactly like the real one on Coruscant (link	), which is one kilometer in height (link	), and while they may not be completely identical, it is still obviously of similar proportions.
D) SHAAK TI
During the Apprentice's fight with Shaak Ti, special note was given to the Jedi Master's ability to telepathically dominate all life on Felucia, a planet completely overgrown with vegetation (link	), the natives of which are all inherently Force sensitive (link	) and spread across the entire planet (link	), with the most powerful ones being "among the most talented natural Force-users in the galaxy" (link	), and she had even nerfed their connection to the Force (link	). The effect her death had on the planet is accounted in great detail, further demonstrating her influence over the entire biosphere (link	).Yet, the Apprentice overpowers her with a Force repulse, with the following comments emphasizing his superiority: "Shaak Ti's command over Felucia was impressive. She communed with its native species, commanding its flora and fauna to attack. But even with an entire planet at her command, she could not hold Starkiller. No one could…" (link	). And given Shaak Ti had turned the planet into a light side nexus (link	), the Apprentice, as a darksider, would have been hindered during the feat.
With Revan getting incapacitated by a backlash far less powerful than an explosion capable of harming life in a 1 km radius, failing to scale near the Shit Emperor, and merely scaling above the lame feat of dominating a single Jedi Master, it becomes hard to imagine him replicating any of the showings above. I haven't seen Revan move a giant starship with his lightning; I haven't seen him ragdoll an army of Force users; I haven't seen him level the Jedi Temple with a single Force push; and I haven't seen him combat planetary Jedi while hindered and win. So I don't think I am being crazy (you certainly don't have any credibility to call me that after suggesting a footnote of a Sith like Lord Vivicar is comparable to Darth Sidious' apprentices) when I say I don't picture him doing as well against Galen Marek than, let's say, Rahm Kota:
He raised his left hand and with the power of the dark side unleashed a bolt of Sith lightning at the renegade Jedi.
Kota only laughed. Raising his left hand in a move that was a mirror image of the apprentice's own, he sent the lightning arcing back to its source. The energy struck both of them, hurling them apart.
The apprentice broke off the attempt, blinking smoke away from his eyes. His anger intensified. He was the first to his feet and running as soon as his boots touched the deck. He felt completely weightless, yet full of momentum, like a hurled spear. His red blade cut a blur through the air, aimed hard at Kota's throat.
The Jedi general ducked and swept his green lightsaber up and down in a lazy attempt to catch him as he went by. That was a move the apprentice had long ago learned to avoid by tucking his head down closer to his center of gravity and rolling in midair, then kicking himself back at his opponent off the nearest wall. This time he pushed telekinetically as he came, attempting to knock Kota's feet out from under him before bringing his blade to bear.
Again, however, Kota deflected his Force energies back at him. Again they were pushed apart.
More cautiously the apprentice circled him, slicing chairs to pieces as he walked and sending the glowing fragments at his enemy's head. Anger made him eager to attack, but he knew better than to give in to it. He hadn't been humiliated. He had successfully tested Kota's defenses. Now that he knew a direct attack would probably fail, he had to find another way to get closer to the man. Or to make the Jedi come to him.
All Galen can get out of Kota with his telekinetic and lightning assaults is a chuckle. Yes, this happened before any of Marek's aforementioned feats, but as soon as Marek reports his successes to Vader, the Dark Lord immediately sends him off on another errand (links 1	and 2	). Marek's fight with Shaak Ti takes place only weeks after his duel with Kota at best. It would be a huge stretch to argue any sort of large gap between Nar Shaddaa Marek and Felucia Marek when such has never been stated to exist. Marek is pretty much operating on the same power level against Ti that he did against Kota, yet the Jedi General is able to stalemate him in a Force battle. Kota should thus logically be able to duplicate all of the feats I listed for Marek.
Ragdolling a Jedi Master capable of leveling facsimile Jedi Temples and mentally dominating planetary biospheres? Darth Vader is up to the task. He was also stated to be far beyond the Emperor's Shadow Guards, one of which was able to match Galen Marek in "a clash of sparks and lightning" and prove to be "tough work" until Marek cheap-shot him (link	), so this is further proof Vader is substantially more powerful than that iteration of Marek. Unfortunately for Revan, I don't think I can say the same of him.
III. REVENGE OF THE ACCOLADES
Per Lucas, because of the injuries Vader suffered on Mustafar, "From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor." This indicates both that pre-suit Vader was as strong as the Emperor, and that post-suit Vader never again achieved such a level of power.
No shit Vader never became as powerful as the Emperor after his reconstruction. However, you baselessly assume this exclusively refers to the Emperor as of Revenge of the Sith.* Lucas mentions Luke's ability overthrow the Emperor at the beginning in present tense and at the end in future tense, but refers to Revenge of the Sith in past tense, so it is more likely he is talking about the timeframe of the Original Trilogy. The Emperor continued to amass more power after Revenge of the Sith (link	), so Vader never again equaling his Master doesn't preclude him surpassing earlier iterations like RotS.
Lucas is discussing Vader's strength and notes that he's not as strong as the Emperor. Still discussing strength, Lucas compounds that notion by saying Vader's strength is now like Maul or Dooku. We can infer that Lucas isn't just randomly noting that Maul and Dooku also aren't as strong as the Emperor - a self-evident fact - in a paragraph all about Vader's strength. That would be completely off-topic. Rather, Lucas is clearly using Maul and Dooku as a reference point for Vader's new powers. That's the only realistic way to interpret it.
There's nothing grammatically inaccurate about interpreting Lucas' statement as meaning Vader "is like Darth Maul or Count Dooku" in that he's not "as strong as the Emperor" the same as them, rather than Vader "is like Darth Maul or Count Dooku" in that he's exactly as strong as them. Lucas mentioning them as examples makes sense as they were both Darth Sidious' apprentices who failed to live up to their potential - which is what the entire quote is about: people with the potential to eclipse the Emperor. There's a thematic correspondence between them and Vader: "he is like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He's not what he was supposed to become."
And even were Vader only on the level of Darth Maul, that would still leave him better off than Revan. Remember that little quote about Shadow Guards not being a threat to Vader I posted at the start? It also stated Shadow Guards are less powerful than Asajj Ventress (link	). This extends the powerscale I created with Galen being at the bottom, equaled/surpassed by Ventress who got her ribs casually smashed by Obi-Wan Kenobi (link	) who in turn got ragdolled by Darth Maul (link	), someone whose level Vader is around according to yourself.
I think it's hilarious you don't stop and consider if you're misinterpreting events; instead, you default into arguing that almost a dozen major sources are wrong and retconned into oblivion.
All I've done here is adhere to the rules that we both - yes, that also means you - agreed on yet you chastise me to no end. But when you do the exact same thing you mock me for by attempting to delete seven quotes making suit Darth Vader more powerful than RotS Anakin Skywalker (link	) by citing only a single Lucas quote, suddenly it is "the only realistic way to interpret it"?
There's more than one valid way to view Lucas' statement, and my interpretation is actually inclusive of the vast wealth of evidence stating suit Vader is above Anakin Skywalker - evidence you've failed to topple. Anakin was already "as strong as the Emperor" according to Lucas himself, so Vader being above the former would by extension place him beyond RotS Sidious in power. That expands the earlier powerscale further since Sidious can ragdoll Maul (link	), but more importantly it canonically places Vader vastly out of Revan's reach since he is factually above the most powerful Sith and Jedi in history.
IV. A NEW MASTERY
Yes, equally. That's what the text states. You're right about Galen getting a second wind of sorts but leave out Vader's mental state completely.* Marek successfully unbalanced Vader with taunts right before the tables began to turn (link	). This would have undoubtedly factored negatively into his performance a great deal as HK-47 states (links 1	and 2	).
However, I saw no rebuttal to Vader indeed fighting equally with Marek before the inclusion of psychological warfare. Vader does legitimately scale to all that Marek has done with the Force up to that point, such as blowing up a lightsaber-resistant rancor (link	), powering a cannon that puts a hole in an ISD and brings down a superstructure (link	), and yanking down an ISD from the sky (links 1	and 2	). And Vader's fought and beaten Galen's clones too. The primary Starkiller clone - who is just as powerful as the original Marek (link	) - he outright ragdolls (link	), and if you remember, the Emperor couldn't manhandle Marek the same way in the first game. The novelization describes Marek catching the Emperor's lightning with his hands and advancing toward him, resulting in the Emperor feeling desperate. Vader in The Force Unleashed II outright does a feat the Emperor in the first Force Unleashed couldn't do. The conclusion to be drawn from this is twofold:
Darth Vader is, by feats, more powerful than the Emperor's Revenge of the Sith incarnation, the most powerful Sith Lord in history and an equal of Anakin Skywalker, the most powerful Jedi in history. Per the debate rules, feats are the supreme authority as far as evidence goes, trumping all contradictory statements, even ones from George Lucas.
The fact that he can go from being significantly less powerful than TFU Palpatine to being significantly more powerful than TFU Palpatine in just one year (link	) proves Darth Vader does grow in lockstep with the Emperor. His annual growth rate would thus be humongous and essentially render everything prior to Return of the Jedi as low showings for him.
The all-too-common counter to this is that Starkiller was exhausted before he fought Vader. The myth that it had a negative impact on his power needs to die. The game has him screaming like a madman mere seconds before Vader Force grips him, and the novel notes how he was "howling with rage" which is echoed by the Prima Official Game Guide (link	). Historically, Force rage has been enough to erase any and all feelings of enervation, such as in the cases of Dessel and Maul (link	; it's not a stretch to assume that Starkiller would be amped when losing Juno to Boba Fett sent him into a Force Rage earlier (link	), and here has just witnessed - in his mind - her get killed by his most hated enemy), so Starkiller was at full power when Vader tossed him aside "like a ragdoll" (link	). And to make this clear, Vader manhandled Starkiller because he was "too powerful," not because Starkiller forgot to put his Force defences up or whatever. His superiority is also demonstrated when he tanks a rage-amped Starkiller's lightning barrage for 30 seconds without sustaining any lethal injuries (link	), which is consistent with the Prima Official Game Guide's description of Vader rendering most of Starkiller's Force attacks useless (link	). Far less powerful blasts have been able to penetrate Vader's insulation (link	), so going by your logic, Vader is actually holding his body together through sheer will, since apparently internal organs aren't covered by a Force shield (link	), which is news to me but I'm okay with it because it means Vader's will exceeds Revan's given Starkiller's lightning is vastly more powerful than the backlash that incapacitated an amped Revan (link	).
Darth Vader has also beaten the Dark Apprentice (link	, they both have their lightsabers drawn, the Dark Apprentice is humbled and kneeling before Vader, smoking and with cuts on his cheek and arm; anyone's who's taken classes in visual analysis should recognize this as the aftermath of a duel) - someone more powerful than the original Galen Marek "ever was" which would include Oneness. This showing is bereft of any circumstances like fatigue, so you cannot wiggle around it. It's as clear cut as one could be. Therefore, Vader by feats is capable of defeating someone more powerful than Oneness Marek who is more powerful than base Marek and made his efforts with the dark side "look like those of a child." The only argument against this that I can see is appealing to the idea that the dark side ending is non-canon. But no one is arguing Starkiller dying by the Dark Apprentice's hand is what actually happened in continuity. However, the cinematics that showcase the Dark Apprentice's backstory exist independently of whether the player chooses the light or dark side ending, as does the vision Starkiller has in the novelization that likewise acknowledges the Dark Apprentice's existence. The only thing that is non-canon here is Darth Vader's backup plan coming to fruition, but the plan itself, his training and defeating of the Dark Apprentice, etc. are real.
Before he could complete the move, a red blade erupted from his chest, exactly as it had in a former life, on the Empirical. Only this time his former Master couldn't have wielded it. He still knelt before him, awaiting the death blow.
The pain and shock were too great. Starkiller arched backward, lightsabers falling from his hands. With an agonized cry, he crumpled to the ground, and stared up at the man who had killed him.
It was himself.
Darth Vader rose to his feet. Blasterfire erupted around them. Starkiller heard screams and cries and the sound of people falling. The battle was intense but short-lived, and he had eyes only for the pair in black looming over him.
"I lied when I told you that the cloning process had not been perfected."
His former Master's words fell like blows upon his stricken form. The version of himself standing at the Dark Lord's side was upright and whole in even way. The Sith training uniform he wore was immaculate and lethally adorned. The two red lightsabers held crossed over his chest didn't waver a millimeter as their eyes locked.
Starkiller's breath was growing shallow. The fire that had burned in him was dying, as it always died in the end. The dark side consumed everything. Hatred was never a substitute for love, and the price of pursuing it was life itself.
In the corner of his view, lying drenched in the rain, lay a limp, shattered form. He could not bear to look at it. Instead he clutched the burning hole in his chest and watched the Dark Lord give his new apprentice his first orders.
"You have faced your final test."
The reborn Starkiller knelt at the Dark Lord's feet. "What is thy bidding, my Master?"
"Take the Rogue Shadow. Scour the far reaches of the galaxy. Find the last of the Rebels and destroy them."
"As you wish."
"Then, and only then, will you achieve your destiny."
The new apprentice rose and walked away, stepping over Juno's body as be went. Kota's body lay nearby, and PROXY'S, sliced neatly in two. Darth Vader looked down at Starkiller's body and, with a contemptuous flick of his wrist, sent it skidding over the edge of the platform and into the sea.
The last thing Starkiller saw was storm clouds and lightning far above, as he had on the first day of his freedom, just days ago.
V. VADER STRIKES BACK
Take off your tinfoil hat. In a post of dozens of points, sometimes some slip through. I didn't intentionally "ignore" your twenty percent argument.
Sure, you can say that and try to weasel yourself out of every imbroglio like a politician but actions speak louder than words. The fact remains you left it unaddressed in your first post. And since history has a tendency to repeat itself, it's fitting you would also abstain from countering my argument against the idea that Ben Kenobi would still be more powerful than Darth Vader in The Empire Strikes Back.* And this time you literally quoted my words too, so it's kind of hard for anyone to buy the excuse that the point just slipped through.
And indeed, it'd make little sense for Ben to still be Vader's superior by the time of The Empire Strikes Back when the Dark Lord is labelled "equally formidable" to the Emperor during the events of the movie:
As for Ben still being Vader's better during A New Hope, that only works if he's stronger than he was in Revenge of the Sith because of the quotes declaring Vader to be more powerful than Anakin. Since those quotes are far more numerous than the ones stating Obi-Wan had grown weaker, they take precedence, alongside Vader's feats in The Force Unleashed II which also position him beyond Anakin.
In fact, I love when members cite that. By itself, it's impossible to discern what being eighty percent of the Emperor means; we have no reference point. Is zero percent a normal human? Is fifty percent a Jedi padawan? Considering the context isn't even meant to hype up Vader - just read the full quote, as posted below - a full twenty percent difference can easily mean a tremendous gap in power.
Your entire argument is a hilarious double standard.* You treat Lucas' Force levels like a Biblical fundamentalist yet go on a rant about how Lucas' 80% is ambiguous and its meaning "impossible to discern." You do realize that these Force levels are just as ambiguous, arbitrary and vague as the percentages, do you? We have no idea whether the levels operate on a linear scale, an exponential one, a logarithmic one, or something completely different. There is nothing there that indicates Ben is "vastly" beyond Vader like you think.**
**BASELESS BULLSHIT COUNTER: 5
Also, it's curious you center your argument around the ambiguity of "maybe" when it's referring to Ben relative to Vader, but ignore the "maybe" in Vader being "maybe 20 percent less than" the Emperor.
Dude, the entire premise of my argument was that the inexact language in your quote would force you to accept any and all statements of similar wording as fact, which is why I brought up the 80% quote in the first place. I fully acknowledged the imprecise terminology as it served as the very foundation of my point. Reading comprehension, much?
All that denotes is that the gap isn't miniscule but that's it. It doesn't establish Vader would get ragdolled, one-shot, or anything so what exactly are you trying to achieve here by citing it? It's vague as hell.
If they're both growing at roughly the same rate but Vader began less powerful than the Emperor, then of course he can't catch up. Nothing here debunks the idea Vader grew in lockstep with the latter like you nonsensically conclude.*
That statement is blatantly wrong as Vader plots to oust the Emperor in Return of the Jedi in the very room his Master is sitting in:
Vader was impressed with Luke's speed. Pleased, even. It was a pity, almost, he couldn't let the boy kill the Emperor yet. Luke wasn't ready for that, emotionally. There was still a chance Luke would return to his friends if he destroyed the Emperor now. He needed more extensive tutelage, first - training by both Vader and Palpatine - before he'd be ready to assume his place at Vader's right hand, ruling the galaxy.
Even if it were true, it once again wouldn't debunk my argument since I'm not arguing Vader could have beaten the Emperor on his own. All I'm advocating for is that Vader wouldn't get flicked to oblivion by a single attack; that he can stand his ground for maybe 20 or so seconds before going down considering how he fared without an active Force defence. Your statement doesn't contradict that idea.
You're committing the fallacy of false equivalency.* The statement about Asajj Ventress refers to what she could become hence Sidious being worried about her "growing prowess with the dark side." Vader's case is about his current power which does indeed position him near the Emperor's league.
The Emperor wanted someone more powerful than himself as an apprentice according to George Lucas. Being a disappointment in the Emperor's eyes doesn't demean Vader relative to Revan nor does it mean Vader isn't comparably powerful to his Master like his statements and feats suggest.
VI. RETURN OF THE LIGHTNING TANKING
A) WEAKENED
According to your very own word, Darth Vader's will doesn't dictate reality (link	). Therefore, him "focusing solely and sightlessly on his will" "to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor" doesn't mean any reality-warping was done in the vein of Anakin Skywalker willing Count Dooku to lose as the Revenge of the Sith novelization described it. It was solely a physical feat, and thus all of Vader's gathered Force energy would have gone into physical augmentation. And since his body was weakened and his physical strength wasn't at its maximum, per once again yourself and other canonical sources (link	), it would therefore mean he wasn't able to channel enough Force power to augment his physicals to their usual level, meaning that Vader wasn't operating on his standard level and was weakened when performing this feat.
How does it feel to know you've debunked your own arguments and validated mine?
I'm amused you think Vader "focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act" across the span of "minutes" is not a big deal, yet believe Luke simply being passively amplified by dark emotions produces astronomic discrepancies in his power. Attacks unleashed in combat reflect the energies an individual can summon at a moment's notice. Vader charging up his power hundreds of times longer than normal places him at an utterly unnatural level of power. Even if we assume Vader's, in general, less powerful than normal, it still logically holds the power he wields after gathering and focusing his weakened strength for minutes far supersedes the power he could summon with his standard strength in a split second
Your double standards are once again on full display*: you argue that Galen Marek simply "understand[ing] a better way to kill" and proclaiming "I don't need hate in order to beat you" made him powerful enough to telekinetically ragdoll the guy he was just seconds earlier even with, yet ridicule the notion that Luke drawing on his rage would grant him an epic boost even though the idea is the same.
And I never said Vader focusing his power wasn't a big deal; don't strawman me.* My point was that because Vader was "weaker than he'd ever been" (link	), you have absolutely no way to ascertain whether him accumulating his power would place him above his natural strength or not. And you still don't, because you didn't actually respond to my argument, just regurgitated the same baseless vomit from your last post.** Why should we conclude Vader, when he's even weaker than when he was burning on Mustafar, gathering his energies for minutes makes him more powerful than full power RotJ Vader? You haven't offered any sort of proof, just assertively acting like you saying so means it must be true. It doesn't.
George Lucas himself validates every argument I've made thus far. "Vader is not powerful enough to kill the Emperor," but is able to "out of the super energy of wanting to protect his son." So much for that idea Vader's weakened when he's described as having literal "super energy" relative to his normal sense. How does it feel to be wrong about literally everything you wrote?
That statement is in the context of the aftermath of Luke and Vader's duel (link	). Even after being empowered by "the super energy," Vader is still weakened ("remaining strength"; "the Dark Lord's weakened body"; "a crippled Vader"), which you've admitted yourself, so are you actually advocating for the idea that if a statement doesn't mention the context of the scene it is referencing, that context should be ignored? That's not how debating works.
If Darth Vader is focusing "solely and sightlessly on his will" "to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor," he was, factually, not consciously focusing his will on anything else except the Emperor's demise. Your rebuttal is nonsensical; yes, he has to live to accomplish his objective, but to conclude from that that he was actively focused on surviving is the fallacy of defective induction.* Vader can still live and not be protecting himself - all it indicates is that he can withstand the Emperor's power with his passive defences.
B) DARTH VADER VS LUKE SKYWALKER
Since we have established Darth Vader was weakened when he accomplished the feat of tanking the Emperor's lightning and hurling him to his death, yet Luke at full power succumbed to much lesser intensity, we can safely conclude the father to be far more powerful than the son by way of feats, the highest form of evidence per the debate rules.
Quotes stating Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader are "equally strong in the Force" clearly establish a default position for the characters and aren't referring to any circumstantial amps.
Once again, you simply can't ignore the context of the scene that the statements are referring to even if the quotes themselves omit it. Anakin Skywalker: The Story of Darth Vader specifies that even during the brief skirmish you cited from the film, Luke was still amped by his rage: "Again the young Jedi allowed his anger to bleed away," which is stated right after Luke disengages and jumps to the catwalk (link	); if Luke was able to let "his anger bleed away," there must have been anger in the first place. Admittedly it is a little odd how Luke mere moments ago calmed himself (which the same source acknowledges), yet seconds later would be angry once more, but that is what the source states and so we must go with it. Thus, he was amped throughout the entire fight with Vader and all your quotes must be referring to Luke being Vader's equal only when he's enraged. Otherwise they'd be contradicted by their respective feats and thrown out the window.
Absolutely nothing there states Luke gained powers that equaled his father's through personal growth. He may very well have "grown stronger in the interim" by drawing on dark emotions, "acquired" newfound strength via rage, "developed powers that equaled his father's" via dark side anger etc. Nothing actually straight up says he got to that level via just training and experience.
C) THE EMPEROR'S FULL POWER
Darth Vader endured the Emperor's full potency. You haven't repudiated this fact in our current debate, but you did do so in your debate with The Ellimist over on KMC, so to avoid you messing up everything with your final post that I can't respond to within the confines of this debate, I'll prove right now that the Emperor was indeed channelling all of his power into his lightning. I've already provided the scan from the Dark Empire Endnotes stating that Vader tanked "the full force" of the lightning. This has two possible interpretations: full potency and full impact. The latter interpretation denotes that Vader merely tanked the amount/magnitude that was hitting Luke, which actively goes against the idea that Vader endured its full potency. However, if he had merely been struck by the full impact of the lightning torturing Luke, he wouldn't have died. Luke was electrocuted for far longer than Vader yet survived; Vader was electrocuted for a far shorter period than Luke yet died - the full impact interpretation simply doesn't add up and is contradicted by what actually occurred in the story. Thus, the only remaining the interpretation is the full potency one.
But wouldn't the fact that Vader was weakened explain why he died so quickly, invalidating my argument? No, because Luke had his active defences breached by even the smallest fraction of the lightning's potency, and was toppled to the floor and started convulsing uncontrollably as the bolts' intensity increased. Vader could actually walk through the Emperor's lightning barrage without breaking stride with his passive defences, and him being weakened doesn't take away from that. So even while weakened, Vader is still Luke's vast superior, and therefore the full impact interpretation makes no sense, and we are left with the full potency one.
We've seen Revan's factual limit when he was briefly incapacitated by a backlash less powerful than an explosion capable of damaging life in a 1 km radius, while amped to an obscene degree. Baseline Revan would therefore suffer much more serious injuries from the blast and there's no real proof he could even have survived it. He is also canonically less powerful than the Shit Emperor, and your method of scaling him near the latter is faulty. For Revan's actual feats, he gets some shoddy scaling from Lord Vivicar who can dominate a single Jedi Master telepathically, and he blasted Darth Nyriss to ash. His all-time best feat appears to be defeating Darth Malak on the Star Forge.
Then we have Darth Vader consistently contending with and beating Yoda-tier Force users in Galen Marek, Starkiller, and the Dark Apprentice. Each of them can make the Galactic Emperor struggle, and their environmental feats make a nuke capable of harming life in a 1 km radius look like ass, yet Vader can tool every single one of them way before his prime. A total of seven or more accolades also proclaim him to be stronger than his Jedi self who was already on the Emperor's level then, and the Emperor expressed distress over Vader's power rivalling his own on top of which Vader was deemed "equally formidable" to his Master during the events of The Empire Strikes Back. His all-time best feat is enduring the Emperor's full power lightning barrage for ten seconds with a passive Force barrier while weakened, and surviving, only dying from his wounds later on.
I don't enjoy entertaining mismatches. It gets infuriating when the other person attempts to obnoxiously nitpick away every single thing the lore says about a character - and employ a half a dozen logical fallacies and generally poor and/or dishonest debating tactics along the way - to scramble together some monstrosity of an argument that is somehow supposed to be an advantage over that axiomatically, and sometimes factually, superior character. There exist certain fights within the Star Wars mythos with little to no genuine discussion value that should be kept locked away in a vault never to be opened and the key to that vault should be secured in a strongbox sunken to the bottom of the Mariana Trench where it ought to lay forgotten till the end of time.
The more and more I type, the more I realize how inadequate most characters are compared to Vader; he has every base covered. And I truly mean that because even if you refute a feat or two of his, the rest remain along his accolades. That is why I can afford to argue outlandish positions and take hits as I have with the reality-warping willpower argument - because it doesn't hinder me in the slightest and more often than not actually ends up bolstering Vader in other aspects. The inverse is true for Revan, where you are forced to fight tooth and nail over every miniscule feat of his, and I can simply let you have your way without fear of repercussions as I have with the idea of him growing more powerful leading up to Shadow of Revan - it is not important and I needed to save space.
I could concede all of your pro-Revan arguments and let him be a casual planet eater, and even then be winning the debate, because Revan would still be inferior to Vader due to his canonical constraints beneath Darth Sidious, Yoda, Anakin Skywalker and the likes. And that's where the crux of this debate lies: every piece of evidence I have presented for Vader, be it a feat or an accolade, places him definitively above Revan by itself; whereas no piece of evidence you have presented for Revan conclusively positions him beyond Darth Vader, even collectively. Essentially, you can present the most wonderous, fantastical case for Revan imaginable accompanied by the most beautiful rhetoric mankind has ever witnessed, but so long as even a single pro-Vader piece of evidence remains, Revan will always lose this fight, because - and I believe we both know this by now, even if you cannot admit it to yourself - he is simply a fundamentally, congenitally, and primordially lesser character in every way, shape, and form.
All I'm saying is that, instead of obstinately continuing to argue a hilariously implausible position, perhaps you should consider quitting this debate and just go home. Accept Revan's limitations, restrictions, failure, weakness, inferiority, and move on. That's all.
Post Three (1 of 2) by DarthAnt66
(Originally posted on 17 October 2018. Relevant character count is under 35,000.)
I. REVAN REBUTTALS
A. THE POWER OF ZIOST
Open spoiler tags to view recap.
MY POST ONE: I articulated why Vitiate was vastly weakened when he consumed Ziost: there is a vast gap in power between both physical bodies versus spirits (i.e. physical Vitiate >>> spirit Vitiate) and Vitiate's standard spirit versus Vitiate's weakened spirit on Ziost (i.e. standard spirit Vitiate >>> weakened spirit Vitiate). Thus, physical Vitiate >>> standard spirit Vitiate >>> weakened spirit Vitiate that razed Ziost.
AZRONGER'S POST TWO: Azronger argued that the passive nexus of Ziost may have amplified weakened spirit Vitiate to such an extent it may have fully compensated for everything else, meaning the fact cannot be ascribed to physical Vitiate.
MY POST TWO: I explained that standard spirit Vitiate possesses the Nathema nexus - a nexus explicitly greater than Ziost - so any boost that Vitiate received on Ziost cannot numerically offset the difference between weakened spirit Vitiate to standard spirit Vitiate, yet alone standard spirit Vitiate to physical Vitiate.
AZRONGER'S POST THREE: Azronger argued that Nathema was simply geographically larger than Ziost, not necessarily more potent, and reaffirmed his argument from post two.
MY POST THREE: As shown below.
Since when has "largest" been synonymous with "most potent"?* The Old Republic Encyclopedia's description of the ritual nexus only denotes its size, not its potency.
Since 1200 AD [1]	. "Large" means "of more than average size, quantity, degree, etc." (Dictionary.com), "big in size or amount" (Cambridge), "of considerable or relatively great size, extent, or capacity" (Oxford), "having more than usual capacity or scope" or "exceeding most other things of like kind especially in quantity or size" (Merriam-Webster), "of considerable or relatively great size, extent, or capacity" (Google), etc.
There are many planetary-wide nexus' in Star Wars - Korriban, Ziost, Malachor V, Dromund Kaas, Lehon, Zakuul, Odessan, Ambria, etc. Nathema being the "largest in size" dark side nexus would simply mean it's an unnaturally large planet. Given the context of the quote speaks to the magnitude of the Nathema ritual, the size of the planet is utterly irrelevant information and clear indication that the usage of "largest" is instead in reference to quantity/amount/capacity, i.e. the nexus' potency.
It's amusing how #teamswtor still can't get a grasp on such a simple concept as… words.
You have become the living embodiment of irony. Congratulations.
You're baselessly assuming that Ziost is only "moderately" powerful when in reality its potency is undefined.*
The potency of Ziost is defined - it's less powerful than the "largest dark side nexus in history," i.e. Nathema. As previously stated, any boost a weakened spirit Vitiate received by being in the presence of the Ziost dark side nexus does not compensate for his standard spirit possessing the Nathema dark side nexus. Add on Vitiate consuming millions of inhabitants, eight-thousand powerful Sith Lords, all the fauna and flora of the planet, and the discrepancy in power between a spirit and a physical body, and it's impossible for the weakened spirit Vitiate residing on Ziost to be more powerful than his standard peak self.
Based on the underlined, it seems your entire rebuttal is contingent on your first-grade blunder of what the word "largest" means. Given I've brought you up to speed with second-grade developments, I hope we're in agreement over Vitiate's capabilities. Thus, to restate from post one: Physical Vitiate >>> Spirit Vitiate >>> Weakened spirit / Ziost Vitiate.
B. REVAN'S WILLPOWER
MY POST ONE: I argued that Shadow of Revan is more powerful than any past incarnation of Revan based on past precedent of characters growing in power after coming back from the dead, Shadow of Revan's mere presence increasingly affecting the Force on a galactic scale, and Shadow of Revan's statements that he's more powerful than ever before. Further, I cited Shadow of Revan internally tanking kilometer-spanning energies as indication he's beyond the physical pain that downed him in Revan and that he holds his body together through willpower.
AZRONGER'S POST TWO: Azronger focused much of his post to my claims. Azronger argued that Maul did not grow more powerful after being resurrected, that Savage similarly caused a galactic disturbance simply by going on a quest and not because of his power, and that Spirit Revan stated that Shadow of Revan is "not stronger this way" respectively. Then, he argued that Shadow of Revan would have been amplified by the Yavin 4 nexus during the tanking feat and asked for further substantiation that Shadow of Revan held his body together through willpower.
MY POST TWO: I explained that Azronger was incorrect on all three rebuttals: Maul explicitly grew in power because of his resurrection, Savage's disturbance was explicitly power-related but on a far smaller scale than Revan's, and Spirit Revan was clearly referring not to power but Shadow of Revan's control and well-being. Next, I articulated why Revan would not have been amplified for the tanking feat because the nexus energies would be apart of the backlash against him and how Revan was killed on the Foundry, willed himself back from the Netherworld, and reinhabited his corpse.
AZRONGER'S POST THREE: Azronger dropped every argument except the tanking feat and argued that Shadow of Revan could not have replicated the tanking feat if he was not amplified based on how Revan was almost overwhelmed even while amplified, and that such places a defined cap on Revan's powers.
You argue that the energies Revan channeled would also be affected by the Yavin nexus, balancing out Revan being amped. But the blast had the intensity to ravage life in a one-kilometer-radius on Yavin IV, so if we remove the nexus, it would not have been nearly as potent. Thus, Revan tanking it would have, aside from being far less impressive, been indeterminate. And if we remove the nexus amp from Revan, then there's no proof he could even have tanked it at all as he was pushed to the edge of his strength even when amped to high heavens.
It's not some balancing effect. Yes, passive dark side energies of Yavin 4 flowed through Revan, amplifying him. Further, Revan concentrated the powers of the Machine Core into himself, meaning he had both the stream of power from the Yavin 4 nexus and the Machine Core. However, Revan lost control of these energies when attacked, and they "overloaded" within him. Thus, the passive dark side energies that were originally amplifying Revan were no longer at his disposal but actively included in the "backlash" of harmful energy against him. In other words, Revan can't use the same out-of-control energies literally ripping him apart to simultaneously prevent him from being ripping him apart - that doesn't make any sense.
Straw man. I never argued the backlash could have destroyed all life within a one-kilometer radius. However, as previously stated, "Revan channels the energies of The Machine to devastate all life in a one-kilometer radius, with his pulsations of power during the channel already afflicting all in the radius." In other words, although the channel was incomplete, Revan still suffered a backlash from energies potent enough to radiate and increasingly damage all life in a one-kilometer radius and that approached the power to destroy everyone outright.
Addendum: You've fucked yourself in the ass by posting the scan about Revan's machine core backlash, which stated that he was "Stunned and unable to act" after it blew in his face. If a blast only capable of dealing "massive damage to enemies within 1km" - and possibly much weaker than that, as I'll soon explain - is enough to push a stupendously amped Revan to his limits, I wonder how unamped base Revan could ever be scaled anywhere near, much less above, this (link).
That's rather crude language, don't you think? Let's keep this civil.
Still, I'm glad you brought that up. In the past, I shied away from the "stunned and unable to act" segment because of its hilarious ramifications if taken seriously. However, if you're treating it as fair game, then so will I, and there's no going back now.
Sure, Revan was temporarily "stunned and unable to act" for three seconds after internally tanking kilometer-afflicting energies. While you clearly did not put a lot of thought into this argument, what exactly do you think happened while Revan was "stunned and unable to act"? That the coalition strike team sat back and drank juice boxes until Revan got back up? Revan would be immobile on the floor as dozens of enemies stab him with lightsabers and fire blasters and explosives (which is exactly what happens in-game). If Revan's "unable to act," then he's incapable of actively using the Force, meaning he absorbed all the attacks through sheer force of will and still got back up and continued fighting. Note that Revan remained fully conscious during this time, even speaking, "No! I won't be denied! I will never give in!" This is consistent with how Revan is unfazed by a direct lightsaber strike from Satele Shan in the Shadow of Revan launch trailer [1]	, and further substantiation that Revan's powered by his will.
Your argument establishes Revan as a virtually indomitable opponent that cannot be subdued by conventional means. Even a supremely weakened and largely defenseless Revan was seemingly invulnerable to point-blank lightsaber strikes. To win, Vader would literally have to rip Revan apart, which even kilometer-spanning energies or direct lightsaber strikes cannot do.
To your point, this does not ascribe any limit to Revan. The overload was internal, meaning Revan could not defend against it with a Force barrier. Your argument is the equivalent of if someone surgically implanted a bomb in Vader's body then arguing Vader's limit is the potency of the bomb since he blew up when it detonated.
C. REVAN VERSUS VITIATE
AZRONGER'S POST ONE: Azronger argued that Revan was utterly and easily overwhelmed by Vitiate's Force lightning, while Vader "walked through" the Emperor's lightning with relatively less difficulty and injury, and concluded that Vader is far more powerful than Revan.
MY POST ONE: I showed Revan and Vitiate actually fought as relative equals: Revan's telekinesis rendered Vitiate temporarily completely limp, whereas Vitiate's supercharged telekinesis had no physical impact on Revan and likely couldn't had even moved him if it wasn't supercharged. Also, I explained that Vitiate overwhelming Revan is not indicative of significant superiority given the context (click)	. Next, I argued Revan grew in lock-step with Vitiate across their mental war, as he too powerful to be influenced when he was at full Force strength, and only at the end when his powers subsided did Vitiate begin to succeed, showing a correlation between resistance and Force power. Azronger reinforced this by affirming, "Willpower has a stark correlation with one's ability to wield the Force." In simpler terms, Revan started comparably powerful to Vitiate, and his defense against Vitiate's telepathy remained consistently successful across three centuries despite Vitiate growing stronger, indicating Revan grew stronger as well. Thus, Revan was comparable to peak Vitiate as of The Old Republic and far more powerful than the weakened spirit Vitiate that consumed Ziost.
AZRONGER'S POST TWO: Azronger conceded that Revan and Vitiate were peers as of Revan but argued that Revan only matched Vitiate across their mental war with the aid of Meetra Surik, and so it would be impossible to quantify Revan relative to Vitiate as of The Old Republic.
MY POST TWO: I explained that Vitiate was simultaneously telepathically assaulting and Force draining Revan. Without an energy source to counteract the drain, Revan's powers would have quickly depleted, rendering him incapable of defending against Vitiate's constantly-replenishing powers. Meetra's stream of power functioned as that counterbalance. However, Meetra explicitly only restored Revan's powers to their normal levels; she did not amplify him. Since Vitiate grew continuously stronger, it must have been Revan's own growth, triggered through endless exertion of his will and the Force, that allowed him to remain in lock-step with Vitiate. Otherwise, the power discrepancy between an equalized Revan and strengthening Vitiate would constantly expand until Vitiate's powers far surpassed and completely overpowered Revan's.
AZRONGER'S POST THREE: Azronger argued that Revan could only resist Vitiate for a period of time until he was replenished by Meetra, and he disputed the idea that Revan grew in power because his powers subsided at the end of the mental war. Further, Azronger conteded that Revan resisted Vitiate only because Vitiate is "incompetent with telepathy."
You're just regurgitating your argument from post two without responding to my actual rebuttals. You completely failed to address that Vitiate grew continuously stronger from siphoning Revan. Thus, to restate "The power discrepancy between an equalized Revan and strengthening Vitiate would constantly expand until Vitiate's powers far surpassed and completely overpowered Revan's. Thus, it must be Revan's own growth, clearly brought forth through nigh-endless usage of Force and exertion of will, that allows him to remain in lock-step with Vitiate."
The Exile repeatedly states that Revan's "strength will fail," which would not happen if he were growing more powerful continually (link).
I already incorporated the Exile's statements that Revan's "strength will fail" into my first post (click)	. You are just reusing the quotes I already cited and concluding the opposite without addressing my original argument or providing new analysis. The fact Revan's power began to and/or would fail toward the end Cold War is not mutually exclusive with the idea Revan's powers grew across the three centuries prior. Both conditions can easily be true, as I've even already said, so that's not a rebuttal.
His success, aside from having his psyche repeatedly revitalized as explained above, is simply explained by the Shit Emperor's incompetence with telepathy similar to Corran Horn being unskilled in telekinesis.
Your defense to Revan razing planets has come down to alleging that Vitiate is unnaturally incompetent with telepathy in a comparable fashion to Corran Horn with telekinesis. Oh boy. Of course, Horn isn't "unskilled" in telekinesis; he has a literal genetic predisposition against it. In contrast, Vitiate's telepathic ability is consistently touted by sources utterly disproportionate to any other power he possesses. Vitiate even consciously chooses to use telepathy in battle, which defies all sensibility if his other abilities, like telekinesis, are distinctly more potent, which establishes a clear distinction between him and Horn (who biologically cannot use telekinesis).
In a normal confrontation, Failkorion utterly lays waste to the Outlander (links 1 and 2), yet admits to being incapable of mentally enslaving him (link). The Outlander resisted Failkorion, yet wasn't anywhere close to being as powerful otherwise.
Valkorion admitted to being incapable of easily *essence transfering into the Outlander, i.e. "My spirit invaded your mind in a search for a new host. You resisted." However, the difficulty of essence transfer is utterly disproportionate to conventional abilities. It's "nearly impossible" "to overcome a spirit already residing in a body" per the Dark Empire Sourcebook. As to why, the Dark Side Sourcebook explains, "If you transfer your essence to another body, and the original consciousness asserts control, you are simply forced out, and the original body survives," seemingly regardless of context, meaning the original consciousness has a nigh-insurmountable advantage over the contending consciousness. Thus, Valkorion required significant time to secretly and slowly hollow out the Outlander's consciousness.
Vitiate never attempted to essence transfer into Revan; rather, he and the Dread Masters tried to corrupt Revan into their servant and pry information from his mind. When they realized Revan was 'too powerful' to be influenced, they began attempting to first splinter his consciousness. My first post explained this in depth (click)	. Thus, your example isn't comparable to what happened to Revan, nor is it indicative of any unstated, innate weakness in Vitiate's trademark ability.
D. LORD VIVICAR SCALING
MY POST TWO: I explained why Revan >>> Dread Masters >>> Act Three Barsen'thor > First Son >>> Children of the Emperor > Act One Barsen'thor >>> Weakened Act One Barsen'thor > Lord Vivicar. As consequence, Revan scales incomprehensibly above Lord Vivicar, who telepathically dominated and leeched the powers of hundreds of Jedi simultaneously, the First Son, who passively concealed the presence of hundreds of dark side infiltrators from the Jedi, and the Dread Masters, who dominated the Act Three Barsen'thor from across the galaxy. I contended such scaling reveals a level of power significantly beyond Vader's shown limits.
AZRONGER'S POST THREE: Azronger ignored all the scaling except for Lord Vivicar and argued that he only dominated one Jedi at a time.
You've proven that Morrhage created a link between himself and hundreds of Jedi, but you're hastily jumping to an unvalidated conclusion by claiming that he actively dominated them all at once.* Yuon Par had noted some time before the Consular storyline began that she'd been ill, and after she finally succumbs to the sickness, Syo Bakarn notes that she is "resting comfortably" (link 1 and 2). Once the player arrives at the hospital, however, Yuon is seen rambling (link), but later on Attros Finn notes how there have been no more outbursts like that (link). When Yuon is being mind controlled and starts rambling again, Attros tells the player that she was placid beforehand, and that the outburst came all of a sudden without warning (link). The fact that there are periods of calmness proves Morrhage isn't dominating the plague victims continuously. The best we've seen from him is controlling one individual at a time, and so that's the most Revan scales above.
Unsurprisingly, you have the timeline mixed up. Vivicar started by plaguing those that joined him on the Malachor 3 expedition: Yuon Par, Duras Fain, Sidonie Garen, Eriz Vossan, and Cin Tykan. Vivicar grew exponentially more powerful because of this: "My power is already beyond your comprehension. and every moment makes me stronger" [1]	. And, yes, Vivicar was not dominating them continuously. However, by the time the Barsen'thor finally confronted him, Vivicar was so powerful that he revealed, "My plague has spread farther than you can imagine. Jedi Masters across the galaxy are succumbing to it as I speak." The amount is identified as "hundreds" by both Vivicar (i.e. "The plague binds these Masters to me. Hundreds of them - the heart and soul of your order.") and Syo Bakarn (i.e. "We have reports from across the galaxy. Dozens of Masters have died from the plague, maybe hundreds."). Thus, exactly as I claimed, Vivicar successfully subjugated "hundreds" of "Jedi Masters" simultaneously (i.e. "succumbing to it as I speak"), and this was accomplished via telepathic domination (as you seem to agree given you called it "mind control"). If not, refer to my second post articulating why it's telepathy (click)	.
II. NEW VADER ARGUMENTS
A. THE FORCE UNLEASHED SCALING
1. RAHM KOTA SCALING
It would take "hours" for Galen Marek to get around the ship because it's blocking the entrance, not because it's infinitely tall and wide despite explicitly being a "corvette" (i.e. "a small warship"). Even then, Marek almost passed out after performing the feat: "Somewhat shakily, he stood, then almost toppled over as the engine continued to fire, sending the corvette onward, out of his control" (Star Wars The Force Unleashed novelization).
First, Marek's "thousands" figure refers to all the droids, including the countless ones he destroyed before the energy blast: "Soon the foyer was full of the twitching, smoking bodies of the temple's hapless guardians. He began to tire, not from exertion but from the tedium of knocking down droid after droid, to no apparent end. There might have been thousands of them" (Star Wars The Force Unleashed novelization).
Second, the droids are revealed to be largely resistant to telekinesis but highly vulnerable to Force lightning: "This enabled them to resist some Force powers, including Force Push, though they were highly susceptible to sudden energy surges such as those caused by Force lightning" (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia). Marek learned this first-hand by killing a dozen scrap guardians instantly with lightning: "He ignored them, used Sith lightning to blast a dozen droids that rushed him with electric claws raised" (Star Wars The Force Unleashed novelization). Thus, it stands to reason his "mighty exhalation of power" includes lightning (e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfMzL1RAeHc&t=3m34s	) - Marek wants an immediate resolution to the situation, and lightning instantly destroys them whereas they're explicitly "immune to Force push." So, no, I wouldn't call it "ragdolling thousands of Force users," and I doubt Marek would either: "Ones such as these, with barely a matching part among them, were child's play" (Star Wars The Force Unleashed novelization).
Also, you cited the Junk Titan in your hyperlinks. The Junk Titan was not included in the hurricane, and Marek only "weakened it" after repeatedly striking it with "every iota of energy he could muster," establishing a defined limit to Marek's capabilities as of Raxus Prime.
Star Wars The Force Unleashed novelization wrote: Igniting his lightsaber, he slashed one of the reaching appendages clean off and batted another aside with a firm telekinetic punch. Recovering his balance, he sent a wave of lightning rippling across its corroded carapace, but that barely slowed it down . . .
Ducking under the swinging blades, he sent bolt after bolt of lightning into the massive wound he had made, while battering it with panels ripped from the walls and hurled with every iota of energy he could muster. Finally it weakened. Listing heavily on its left side and missing one of its axes, it staggered ponderously backward across the foyer.
- which is demonstrably false given you've already clocked Marek's limits on Raxus Prime to be almost passing out after powering a corvette for a brief period of time and barely damaging a Junk Titan with all his power, both of which are a far cry from blowing over the largest structure on Coruscant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v5MmZQMN9k&t=0m1s
During the Apprentice's fight with Shaak Ti, special note was given to the Jedi Master's ability to telepathically dominate all life on Felucia, a planet completely overgrown with vegetation (link), the natives of which are all inherently Force sensitive (link) and spread across the entire planet (link), with the most powerful ones being "among the most talented natural Force-users in the galaxy" (link)
You have provided no evidence that Shaak Ti telepathically dominated all life on Felucia. If you're referring to her control over the Felucians, she simply trained and encouraged them to embrace life-side practices (as sourced below). As for the other fauna and flora, the native Felucians also have control over that: "The Felucians are able to use the Force to command and control their environment and its creatures" (Source: Felucian Warrior databank, Star Wars The Force Unleashed video game).
Shaak Ti databank, Star Wars The Force Unleashed video game wrote: When Shaak Ti discovered the Felucians, she began teaching them to use their connection to the Force for both attack and defense. She also encouraged them to resist the temptation of the dark side
The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide wrote: The Jedi Master struggled to survive in Felucia's harsh environment and eventually made contact with the native population living amid the dense fungi jungles. She established a rapport with the Force-sensitive Felucians and began training their shamans in specific powers to help them oppose the Imperial troops and minions of Vader that are hunting down the Jedi and seeking to eradicate the native Force-users on the planet.
and she had even nerfed their connection to the Force (link).
That quote doesn't state what you think it does. Ti "keeping their innate Force sensitivity in check" isn't the same as suppressing their powers. Ti actively trained the Felucians in offensive and defensive Force powers, and they even used such powers against Marek to impede his progress to Ti: "The apprentice ducked another bolt of Force energy hurled by the Felucian warrior to his right," "Dodging their clumsy telekinesis and unwieldy blows," etc. Instead, Marek may be suggesting that Ti's presence suppressed their natural aggression towards him, which makes more sense given "Shaak Ti's defeated affect them deeply, so profoundly entangled had she become in the energy flows of the world" (Star Wars The Force Unleashed novelization).
The effect her death had on the planet is accounted in great detail, further demonstrating her influence over the entire biosphere (link).
Ti spent sixteen years plugged into Felucia's hypersensitive biosphere - obviously her violent death would have an effect on it. However, Felucia's shift to the dark side, which you are citing, can largely be attributed to Maris Brood, who corrupted and trained the Felucians in the dark side after Ti's death: "Fueled by her anger at Shaak Ti for abandoning her, horror at the carnage of her Master's death, and isolation of the dangerous planet of Felucia, Brood descends toward the dark side. She continues training the shamans in the Jedi arts but, colored by her rage, corrupts many of them into turning to the dark side. Brood establishes herself as the leader of the dark Felucian shamans and trains many rancors to do her bidding" (Star Wars The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide). Note that Felucia "could be easily influenced by both the light and dark sides of the Force" (Star Wars Fact File #55), so a moderately powerful Force-user and armies of Felucians embracing the dark side should be sufficient.
Yet, the Apprentice overpowers her with a Force repulse, with the following comments emphasizing his superiority: "Shaak Ti's command over Felucia was impressive. She communed with its native species, commanding its flora and fauna to attack. But even with an entire planet at her command, she could not hold Starkiller. No one could…" (link).
You've established Ti communed with the Felucians and deeply integrated herself in the Felucian wildlife (like the other Felucians). I don't know if you meant to type more but forgot, but you've presented literally nothing noteworthy here. Why is Ti exhibiting standard telepathy and alter environment on an all-powerful nexus important to a debate between Revan and Vader?
And given Shaak Ti had turned the planet into a light side nexus (link), the Apprentice, as a darksider, would have been hindered during the feat.
You haven't exactly articulated a feat . . .
Marek's fight with Shaak Ti takes place only weeks after his duel with Kota at best. It would be a huge stretch to argue any sort of large gap between Nar Shaddaa Marek and Felucia Marek when such has never been stated to exist. Marek is pretty much operating on the same power level against Ti that he did against Kota, yet the Jedi General is able to stalemate him in a Force battle. Kota should thus logically be able to duplicate all of the feats I listed for Marek.
You're essentially arguing Rahm Kota's significantly more powerful than Shaak Ti, lmao.
Star Wars Insider #140 wrote: After an inconclusive victory against Rahm Kota, and a more final one against the mad Paratus, Starkiller takes on a far more formidable foe in this classic scene: Shaak Ti, one of the most powerful Jedi.
While the word "formidable" has two distinct definitions: "(1) causing fear, dread, or apprehension, (2) having qualities that discourage approach or attack" (Merriam-Webster), the context here indicates the latter, as the text emphasizes her as "one of the most powerful Jedi," and Ti doesn't "cause fear, dread, or apprehension" like a villain would. Thus, Ti's "far more formidable" than Kota, meaning Marek must have grown vast in power between fighting Kota and Ti. Per your own words, Marek would have went from "stalemating Kota" to "overpowering Ti." So, sure, Vader ragdolled someone far less powerful than Ti.
2. SHADOW GUARD SCALING
He was also stated to be far beyond the Emperor's Shadow Guards, one of which was able to match Galen Marek in "a clash of sparks and lightning" and prove to be "tough work" until Marek cheap-shot him (link)
Utter nonsense. The quote, "The apprentice met him with a clash of sparks and lightning," does not remotely imply they "matched" each other. It simply means their lightning and lightsabers collided (i.e. "clash"). The same happened against the previous Shadow Guard that Marek fought also, but it's explicitly stated they were not evenly matched despite that: "A bolt of Sith lightning shot from the hand not holding the staff. The apprentice grinned, having anticipated that tactic. He met the lightning bolt with one of his own. They collided in a spitling, tackling ball of pure energy that danced crazily from side to side . . . The ease with which he drove his assailant's lightning back surprised him" (Star Wars The Force Unleashed novelization).
As for the "tough work" quote, Marek, or any powerful Force user for that matter, doesn't just consistently unleash his full power against every random minion he fights. Even then, Marek never "cheap-shotted" the Shadow Guard. Instead, he telekinetically hurled a giant object at the Guard that crushed him: "He proved to be tough work until the apprentice wrenched the next giant fan off its gimbals and sent it spinning through the air. The black guard seemed so stunned by the sight of it that he didn't jump until it was too late" (Star Wars The Force Unleashed novelization). Unless the Shadow Guard had ceilofanophobia, it seems he was "so stunned" that Marek could "wrench" such a "giant fan" and "send it spinning through the air" in his direction (i.e. he's shocked by Marek's power), and at best the Guard was only capable of jumping out of the way, establishing Marek as the far more powerful of the two.
3. GALEN MAREK SCALING
Yes, equally. That's what the text states. You're right about Galen getting a second wind of sorts but leave out Vader's mental state completely.* Marek successfully unbalanced Vader with taunts right before the tables began to turn (link). This would have undoubtedly factored negatively into his performance a great deal as HK-47 states (links 1 and 2).
Except Marek's "taunts" only further empowered Vader: "The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled" (Star Wars The Force Unleashed novelization). "Redoubled" means "to make twice as great in size or amount" (Source: Merriam-Webster), "to make something much stronger" (Cambridge), "make or become much greater, more intense, or more numerous" (Google), etc, which makes sense because Sith draw on anger for power and Marek's taunts utterly enraged Vader. HK-47's statements pertain to Jedi, who generally suffer the reverse effect. So, an amped-up Vader was brutally humiliated by Marek, who in turn was weaker than the Emperor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irIxkjXOp5M
Vader does legitimately scale to all that Marek has done with the Force up to that point, such as blowing up a lightsaber-resistant rancor (link), powering a cannon that puts a hole in an ISD and brings down a superstructure (link), and yanking down an ISD from the sky (links 1 and 2).
None of which are comparable to wiping out a planet.
Also, you can't attribute feats like these to Vader given Marek has "the potential to be the most powerful Force user ever" (Star Wars Insider 100). For instance, in 21 BBY, Anakin held back a theta storm despite Obi-Wan noting even Yoda likely couldn't do that [1]	. Of course, that doesn't mean sub-Dooku Anakin's somehow more applicably powerful than Yoda in the Force. Rather, in feats that require continuous Force exertion, Anakin (and Marek) can immerse themselves into their unprecedented Force reserves to outlast and outperform almost anyone. Even if Vader's applicably comparably powerful to the Marek that nudged a Star Destroyer, that doesn't mean he can maintain such a level of power for the required duration to pull off the feat. Vader's smaller Force reserves, reflected in his weaker potential, will clock him out far quicker.
B. THE FORCE UNLEASHED II SCALING
1. GALEN MAREK CLONES SCALING
And Vader's fought and beaten Galen's clones too.
Based on what? The Force Unleashed 2 novelization states, "Together they could easily have turned on their creator and overpowered him. Instead they were driven to destroy their own," indicating that the past clones were biologically disposed to not attack Vader, so Vader likely executed them without any conflict. However, I'm not even convinced Vader even killed any failed clones given Starkiller fought an army of them - it seems Vader kept them in storage. Regardless, even if Vader fought and killed past clones, they would have been highly unstable and likely not even armed, similar to the dozens Starkiller cut down with ease.
It's also noteworthy that Starkiller believed that the clones en masse could "easily have turned on their creator and overpowered him," as just quoted, whereas Starkiller pulverized them all simultaneously.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhnsC2V4_0w
2. STARKILLER SCALING
The primary Starkiller clone - who is just as powerful as the original Marek (link) - he outright ragdolls (link).
Before we begin, for those reading who have never heard of The Exhaustion Argument :tm:, click here	and read the section "# 2 - Too Tired to . . . Fail?"
Done? Good.
Vader temporarily gained a telekinetic advantage over a Starkiller more exhausted than after spending thirteen days straight wasting away Force energy to sustain himself: "He had never felt so exhausted, at every level of his being" (Star Wars The Force Unleashed 2 novelization). The lifting is not even indicative of superiority over the near-dead Starkiller either, given Vader still lost that fight anyway and would have also lost the fight directly beforehand if Starkiller had not suffered from a sudden vision the moment he went to strike Vader down:
Source: Star Wars The Force Unleashed 2 novelization wrote: The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.
Juno lying limp in his arms.
The vision struck him as powerfully as a physical blow. When he tried to push it aside, it returned with even more power.
Juno-dead.
He reeled in shock. Was this what would happen if he killed Vader? He had no choice but to believe so. But if he didn't kill Vader, how would he ever get to her?
The Dark Lord took advantage of his momentary confusion. He delivered a telekinetic shove that threw Starkiller backward off the platform and down to the lower levels of the ruined cloning tower. The blow and the fall had the welcome effect of clearing his mind. He turned in midair and landed on his feet. An instant later he was leaping upward again, his face a mask of determination.
The all-too-common counter to this is that Starkiller was exhausted before he fought Vader.
Correct. Perhaps my finest argument, if I may so so myself.
The game has him screaming like a madman mere seconds before Vader Force grips him, and the novel notes how he was "howling with rage" which is echoed by the Prima Official Game Guide (link). Historically, Force rage has been enough to erase any and all feelings of enervation, such as in the cases of Dessel and Maul (link; it's not a stretch to assume that Starkiller would be amped when losing Juno to Boba Fett sent him into a Force Rage earlier (link), and here has just witnessed - in his mind - her get killed by his most hated enemy), so Starkiller was at full power when Vader tossed him aside "like a ragdoll" (link). And to make this clear, Vader manhandled Starkiller because he was "too powerful," not because Starkiller forgot to put his Force defences up or whatever.
The fact Starkiller "howls with rage" doesn't mean he's in a state of Force rage. "Rage" and "Force rage" are not synonymous. "Rage" is just an emotion that Sith, for instance, always use in battle. "Force rage," however, is a specific Force application of totally surrendering oneself to their rage and dark side. The practitioner is consumed in a frenzy of dark side emotion (e.g. Darth Maul on Hypori, Jacen Solo on Coruscant, etc.), which grants "increased power for a short period of time" (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia). Once the bloodlust subsides, the user is "drained of huge amounts of energy," and "has to recuperate for an extended period of time before being able to call upon the dark side again" (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia). Based on this description, you have literally nothing suggesting Starkiller went into Force rage.
Source: Star Wars: The Force Unleashed 2 novelization wrote: Instead of pursuing the attack, Starkiller went to go to Juno, but once again Darth Vader stood in his path.
"Get out of my way."
"Your feelings for her are not real, " Vader said, nor moving.
"They are real to me. "
Starkiller attacked the Dark Lord again, but this time he was the one driven back.
With a sense of piercing despair, he saw exactly how the fight would go . . .
Sudden understanding burst in Starkiller's mind. This was what Darth Vader had wanted all along. He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair.
The behavior Starkiller demonstrates is even contradictory to what would be expected from the blind fury of Force rage anyway. Immediately after "howling with rage," Starkiller breaks off and goes to Juno Eclipse. Vader blocks him, but Starkiller literally just asks to get out of his way rather than continually attack Vader in a frenzied state. When Vader refuses, Starkiller attacks with less strength than before, indicating either the effects of Force rage are already ebbing - meaning Starkiller is in an even weaker state for the rest of the fight due to the Force deprivation that follows Force rage - or he was never in a frenzy in the first place.
His superiority is also demonstrated when he tanks a rage-amped Starkiller's lightning barrage for 30 seconds without sustaining any lethal injuries (link), which is consistent with the Prima Official Game Guide's description of Vader rendering most of Starkiller's Force attacks useless (link).
>vader is overwhelmed by starkiller's lightning barrage
>this demonstrates vader's superiority over starkiller
Checks out.
Starkiller was not "rage-amped" during the lightning barrage. The fact Starkiller screamed while blasting Vader does not mean he even tapped into the dark side, let alone fully immersed himself in it, as doing such is outright contradictory to the novel. Early into the duel, Starkiller gained a burst of clarity, realizing he must avoid the dark side and contain his anger and despair: "Sudden understanding burst in Starkiller's mind. This was what Darth Vader had wanted all along. He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair" (Star Wars The Force Unleashed 2 novelization). Later, Starkiller even plead with Vader to join the Rebellion: "The Rebels want to destroy the Emperor. Why not work with them rather th-?" (Star Wars The Force Unleashed 2 novelization).
Further, aren't you arguing Starkiller was Force enraged at the start of the duel? Which is it - the start or the end? Even your own argument isn't consistent, nor does it explain how Starkiller already defeated Vader without Force rage in the cloning tower. Thus, without even the slightest substantiation to your Force rage argument, it's clear Starkiller's lightning barrage was in a state of near-death exhaustion, which explains the screaming. Remember, Starkiller "never felt so exhausted" directly before the fight in the cloning tower (since he just unleashed the totality of his Force power twice-over in the span of an hour), then had two prolonged fights with Vader that would further deplete the fraction of power he had left. The fact Vader was overwhelmed by such a weakened Starkiller is proof that a rejuvenated Starkiller would utterly crush Vader.
Far less powerful blasts have been able to penetrate Vader's insulation (link), so going by your logic, Vader is actually holding his body together through sheer will, since apparently internal organs aren't covered by a Force shield (link), which is news to me but I'm okay with it because it means Vader's will exceeds Revan's given Starkiller's lightning is vastly more powerful than the backlash that incapacitated an amped Revan (link).
Or Vader's using the Force to (unsuccessfully) defend against the Force attack, lmao.
3. DARK APPRENTICE SCALING
Darth Vader has also beaten the Dark Apprentice (link, they both have their lightsabers drawn, the Dark Apprentice is humbled and kneeling before Vader, smoking and with cuts on his cheek and arm; anyone's who's taken classes in visual analysis should recognize this as the aftermath of a duel) - someone more powerful than the original Galen Marek "ever was" which would include Oneness.
No, the scene is a mirror reflection of Marek's initiation at the start of The Force Unleashed (i.e. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJsE3q0E2yw&t=9m49s	), hence why Vader has his lightsaber out. As for the Dark Apprentice's injuries, it's far more plausible that he just fought other clones given, as you said, his robes are smoking (which would be from Force lightning, which Vader doesn't have). Further, Vader's question - "Are you freed of his memories?" - makes more sense to ask after Starkiller destroys other versions of Marek than simply after a practice duel between the two. How would the Dark Apprentice been defeated if he's still armed with both his lightsabers anyway? I didn't know Sith do tap-outs.
(Continued . . .)
Last edited by DarthAnt66 on July 23rd 2019, 1:50 am; edited 8 times in total
III. OLD VADER ARGUMENTS
A. G-CANON STATEMENTS
Except Palpatine never planned for Dooku to surpass him, not to mention Dooku likely couldn't if he tried. From the start, Palpatine planned to replace Dooku with Anakin. Dooku was just a temporary placeholder and fully lived up to Palpatine's expectations as that role (e.g. to be the public face of the Sith, to lead the Separatists, etc.). Your "interpretation" truly makes no sense.
Star Wars Revenge of the Sith Visual Dictionary wrote: Blinded by pride, Dooku has failed to grasp that, like Darth Maul before him, he is little more than a placeholder for the apprentice Sidious has sought from the beginning: Skywalker himself.
Thus, again, "Lucas is discussing Vader's strength and notes that he's not as strong as the Emperor. Still discussing strength, Lucas compounds that notion by saying Vader's strength is now like Maul or Dooku. We can infer that Lucas isn't just randomly noting that Maul and Dooku also aren't as strong as the Emperor - a self-evident fact - in a paragraph all about Vader's strength. That would be completely off-topic. Rather, Lucas is clearly using Maul and Dooku as a reference point for Vader's new powers. This is the only realistic way to interpret it, whereas your counter-viewpoint is demonstrably false. Vader's around the level of Maul or Dooku and, consequently, significantly less powerful than Anakin or the Emperor as of Revenge of the Sith."
If this was coming from anyone else they might have a point. You though? baay shfat, all I've done here is adhere to the rules that we both - yes, that also means you - agreed on yet you chastise me to no end. But when you do the exact same thing you mock me for by attempting to delete seven quotes making suit Darth Vader more powerful than RotS Anakin Skywalker (link) by citing only a single Lucas quote, suddenly it is "the only realistic way to interpret it"?
Why would a few obscure C-Canon sources inform the content of Lucas' statement? There's no reason to assume consistency between Lucas and the writers of the Expanded Universe. Lucas is fully independent from them, explicitly does not read a vast majority of the Expanded Universe, and has repeatedly stated that he is not constrained whatsoever by what they have established. Further, when you look at the "seven quotes," they're all deeply flawed.
(Open spoiler tags to review specific rebuttals.)
Beware of the Sith: To re-explain the whole Operation Knightfall > Mustafar argument:
Anakin's ripe with fear and doubt. Per his Jedi teachings, he has to suppress these emotions when fighting, meaning he holds himself back and/or they weigh on his mind and distract him. However, when he forgoes his Jedi teachings and channels those feelings of insecurity into anger, he's able to clear his head and unleash his full power. That said, it's a two-way street. In emotionally charged situations, Anakin's anger can also feed into his fear and consume his mind: "On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter, but here now, within this ship, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell." These descriptions of Aargonar and Tatooine are what happened to Anakin on Mustafar: "The rage that boiled up in his brain threatened to block out his vision" (Vader - The Ultimate Guide), "Yet it was as though when he had crushed the dragon under his boot, the dragon had sunk venomed fangs into his heel. Now its poison chilled him to the bone." (Star Wars Revenge of the Sith adult novelization), etc. His emotions spiraled out of control, with his anger fueling his fear, his fear fueling his anger, and his anger fueling his fear again, weighing Anakin down with terror like he never before. Consequently, his powers weakened from being greater than the Emperor's (i.e. "Palpatine elevated himself to the position of Emperor, and dispatched Vader as his ultimate enforcer. With his unparalleled Force abilities, Vader swept through the Jedi Temple." (Darth Vader databank, Star Wars official website)) to simply telekinetically stalemating Obi-Wan for a prolonged period of time.
Beware of the Sith recognizes all of this: "Vader calls on the dark side to harness more power, but he is overwhelmed by rage. Obi-Wan takes advantage of Darth Vader's weaknesses and defeats him." In other words, Vader calling on his anger (i.e. "the dark side") backfires (i.e. "but"), resulting in him being consumed by his emotions (i.e. "overwhelmed with rage"). So, the fact the source highlights Vader "is more experienced and powerful" than Anakin in a supremely weakened state merely scales Vader above the power-fluctuating, emotionally-conflicted Anakin that Obi-Wan stalemated in Force strength, not the Anakin that scales beyond Dooku, Yoda, etc.
Jedi Battles: Similar idea. This source writes how Anakin and Obi-Wan were equally powerful on Mustafar: "Obi-Wan had taught Anakin well an both fighters were now evenly matched in strength and skill." Thus, the "Vader was even stronger" quote is predicated on this idea and does not comment on Vader's relation to Anakin as of Operation Knightfall.
Lightsaber Dueling Pack: The paragraph focuses on how "in spite of his handicaps, Vader thrived" and that "he even found a way to turn the suit to his advantage by becoming a figure out of nightmares," concluding that "from the ashes of death, Vader emerged even stronger." Without a single mention of the Force, but rather emphasis on how Vader's injuries worked out for the best, it's baseless to conclude the quote is explicitly referring to Force power, and the quote is clearly outdated anyway. Vader absolutely did not "thrive" in his suit, nor was the iconic design his own idea. These statements were written back in 1988 and don't reflect current continuity. For a more modern take: "Far from gaining infinite power, he now lived his life in constant pain, never again to touch the skin of another. Only by sealing himself in a hyperbaric medical chamber could Vader peel away his body plating, and his efforts to heal his shattered body through the Force were humiliating failures. He had joined Palpatine in the hopes of overcoming death; instead he had killed his wife and wiped out his surrogate family, the Jedi" (Vader - The Ultimate Guide). Regardless, an outdated and obscure RPG source from the 1980s has no bearing on whether or not Lucas thinks Vader's comparable to Maul in 2005.
The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi: This source doesn't even say Vader's stronger than Anakin, just that they share the same Force signature (spoiler: they're the same person). It makes no sense that Obi-Wan could identify Vader via power unless the power Vader held on the Death Star was exactly the as what Vader held on Mustafar, which hurts your case.
A New Hope: Yes, let's use a quote from 1977 - before Anakin and Vader were even the same character - to argue Lucas believes Vader's more powerful than Anakin! Moreover, Obi-Wan saying Vader's powers "matured" doesn't necessarily mean they increased, just that Vader has greater control than the emotionally unstable wreck that Obi-Wan faced on Mustafar.
Fightsaber: It's not clear if the "at the height of his powers" quote is also encompassing pre-suited Vader, as the quote seems to specifically be in reference to the advancements Vader made between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back, and it's unlikely a 2002 source would make sweeping declarations about the strength of an unknown character (i.e. pre-suit Vader). Even if not, like with Lightsaber Dueling Pack, by no means does Lucas' quote have to be consistent with Fightsaber, so it's plausible it's simply a direct retcon (which isn't a first for Fightsaber). Note, though, that the same line as "at the height of his powers" also states "Skywalker is able to hold up against Vader." Thus, per Fightsaber, Luke's at least comparable to Vader as of The Empire Strikes Back, so a far more powerful Luke should definitely be in Vader's league by Return of the Jedi. This goes back to my central point of this entire debate: Vader cannot be comparably powerful to the Emperor when he's already on par with the far-less-powerful Luke.
I addressed Shadow Guard scaling earlier, but I'm going to hold off on addressing Maul arguments until the the Emperor ones are dealt with to save character space. But, no, the fact Maul scales above a Shadow Guard does not put him above Revan, lmao.
B. C-CANON STATEMENTS
And indeed, it'd make little sense for Ben to still be Vader's superior by the time of The Empire Strikes Back when the Dark Lord is labelled "equally formidable" to the Emperor during the events of the movie.
In this context, i.e. the praising of the Emperor's political machinations without one mention of his dark side powers, there's no reason to assume "equally formidable" refers to "of discouraging or awesome strength, size, difficulty, etc" rather than "causing fear, apprehension, or dread" given both are the living embodiments of fear throughout the Empire, and The Anointed Screenplay states, "My sense of the relationship is that the Emperor is much more powerful than Vader and that Vader is very much intimidated by him," based on the events of The Empire Strikes Back, and Vader believes "he could not hope to defeat" (Vader The Ultimate Guide) and "had no reason to ever believe he could defeat" (The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader) the Emperor, so it's clear they're not equally powerful.
Oh please. How is it vague? Your entire argument is that "Vader would be relativistic to the Emperor." However, this establishes that the Emperor isn't just more powerful than Vader - he's "much more powerful than Vader" - by definition meaning they're not "relativistic."
You're arguing a severely weakened and unarmed Vader can withstand the Emperor's full potency for an extended period of time with just a passive Force shield. Given that premise, Vader definitely should think there's even a slight chance at defeating the Emperor. That doesn't mean Vader should think he could take a majority, just simply entertain the possibility of victory. However, the quotes in question state Vader "could not hope to defeat" and "had no reason to ever believe he could defeat the Emperor," so much so Vader regards the Emperor as literally "omniscient" in three separate sources. Three! Vader wouldn't consider someone comparably powerful to himself to be all-knowing. Your argument just isn't reflected in the lore.
Also, in The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, Vader notes that the Emperor "would not feel threatened" even if him and Luke teamed up to destroy him because "the Emperor was simply too powerful": "Vader grimaced. A year had passed since his last encounter with Luke Skywalker on Cloud City, where he had revealed his identity to Luke and told him it was his destiny to destroy the Emperor. Vader suspected that the Emperor knew of this treachery, for the Emperor knew everything eventually. But even if the Emperor were aware of all that had transpired, Vader was certain he would not feel threatened. The Emperor was simply too powerful." In other words, Vader believes not only would the Emperor not be defeated by the combined power of Luke and him, but he wouldn't even be phased by the prospect.
That statement is blatantly wrong as Vader plots to oust the Emperor in Return of the Jedi in the very room his Master is sitting in.
There's no contradiction. Vader: The Ultimate Guide writes about how Vader "had his own designs on Luke," but his meeting with Palpatine on the Death Star "changed the rules of engagement" as Palpatine seemed "omniscient" and "more powerful than ever." However, after Vader met Luke in person, and especially after he realized Luke might even defeat him, it's reasonable that Vader's views shifted again. Luke's already Vader's level with almost no training, and after months of years of dark side tutelage under the Emperor he'll definitely become a threat to him.
Vader's case is about his current power which does indeed position him near the Emperor's league.
Vader's a threat to him in that he's inclined to rebel and strike at his master when he's vulnerable, which is what he did in practice. The fact remains Vader notes in Return of the Jedi that the Emperor wouldn't even bat an eyelash over the prospect of fighting him.
That's not what the quotes state. "The Emperor had wanted an apprentice, not wanted a walking wound" has nothing to do with the Emperor wishing Vader was more powerful than him. It means that the Emperor hardly even considered Vader an "apprentice" at all (in contrast to Maul and Dooku), as he wanted one but got something else. The same applies for the Emperor looking through a lowly "pool of minor wizards and political sycophants" for a replacement. The Emperor clearly doesn't expect to find someone with more potential power than himself in explicitly "minor" wizards and literal politicians. He just wants someone to replace Vader, indicating he regards Vader as relatively weak during at least the early years of the Empire. Of course, this doesn't mean the Emperor retained such extreme views about Vader, but I'm specifically responding to your claims that the Emperor regarded Vader optimistically in The Rise of Darth Vader. The Emperor did, but as demonstrated with these quotes, such was short lived.
C. DARTH VADER VERSUS THE EMPEROR
1. WEAKENED
According to your very own word, Darth Vader's will doesn't dictate reality (link). Therefore, him "focusing solely and sightlessly on his will" "to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor" doesn't mean any reality-warping was done in the vein of Anakin Skywalker willing Count Dooku to lose as the Revenge of the Sith novelization described it. It was solely a physical feat, and thus all of Vader's gathered Force energy would have gone into physical augmentation.
Oh boy. This is too good. Let's break this argument down line-by-line.
According to your very own word, Darth Vader's will doesn't dictate reality (link).
Correct. You spent half of your first post arguing that Vader's will literally dictates reality. Your commentary on the subject exponentially reduced each subsequent post after it became clear that was arguably the worst argument ever conceived and, now, it seems you're fully embracing my own argument. I can only assume you have fully conceded on the subject?
Therefore, him "focusing solely and sightlessly on his will" "to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor" doesn't mean any reality-warping was done in the vein of Anakin Skywalker willing Count Dooku to lose as the Revenge of the Sith novelization described it.
As in, Vader cannot just "decide" that the Emperor should die and then the Force itself bends to make that happen, which you tried to argue and apply against Revan.
It was solely a physical feat.
That's a jump. Why was it "solely a physical feat?" The entire focus of this discussion is whether Vader actively used the Force to defend himself against the Emperor's lightning. You contended he did not based on some odd interpretation of a single line, despite the obvious logical benefits in Vader doing so. Now, you're just fully adopting that stance without any further substantiation and without addressing my previous rebuttals.
And thus all of Vader's gathered Force energy would have gone into physical augmentation. And since his body was weakened and his physical strength wasn't at its maximum, per once again yourself and other canonical sources (link), it would therefore mean he wasn't able to channel enough Force power to augment his physicals to their usual level, meaning that Vader wasn't operating on his standard level and was weakened when performing this feat.
- which you have completely failed to prove in the slightest. You have somehow tried to establish a connection between Vader not being a reality-warper and Vader not using a Force barrier against the Emperor, despite failing to articulate how they interrelate whatsoever.
My point was that because Vader was "weaker than he'd ever been" (link), you have absolutely no way to ascertain whether him accumulating his power would place him above his natural strength or not. And you still don't, because you didn't actually respond to my argument, just regurgitated the same baseless vomit from your last post.** Why should we conclude Vader, when he's even weaker than when he was burning on Mustafar, gathering his energies for minutes makes him more powerful than full power RotJ Vader? You haven't offered any sort of proof, just assertively acting like you saying so means it must be true. It doesn't.
Oh! The irony! You have desperately tried to dismiss Ziost because it's "unknown how much the nexus aided the feat" (even though that's untrue). Here, you've openly admitted there's "no way to ascertain" how powerful Vader was, yet you're still trying to use the "feat."
The ideas that Vader's body was physically weakened and that Vader was overall empowered by "focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act" across the span of "minutes" are not mutually exclusive. Moreover, combined with Vader's hyper-concentrated energies is the "super energy" (i.e. Vader gained a "super", or "exceeding the norm," amount of available energy) he received "out of wanting to protect his son, out of compassion." So, Vader both charged up his power like never before and got a super power boost on top of that. Now, consider The Wrath of Darth Maul. Maul went from being on the brink-of-death after suffering near-mortal wounds (e.g. "His wound became worse. The pain was beyond excruciating. He had no doubt that death would come soon. He thought he was hallucinating when he saw a cloaked figure appear at the mount of the cave.") to feeling more powerful than ever before (e.g. "Maul felt his rage flowing through his veins, pumping energy into every muscle. He felt so powerful that he believed he could accomplish anything.") after immersing himself in the Force. Likewise, if Kit Fisto was tortured for three years, had his tentacles ripped off him, and his legs snapped, then was empowered with the energies of The Father, Fisto would still become infinitely more powerful than before. The fact Vader's physically injured is ultimately irrelevant to the fact he's imbued with an unbelievable amp, not to mention his armor is specifically modified to maximize defense against Force lightning via insulation and systems that mitigate and release extreme heat. Even then, Vader still died! Why you have made this feat your central argument is beyond me.
Quantify for me the percentage of the lightning resisted by his "concentrated" amp, the percentage of the lightning resisted by his "super energy" amp, the percentage of the lightning resisted by his armor, and the percentage of the lightning not even resisted (since Vader died), and we can subtract the subtotals and discern how much of Vader's regular power resisted the Emperor. From that point, we can discuss if the number puts Vader above a planet-cleanser. Otherwise, you have an utterly unquantifiable showing that increasingly looks worse for Vader.
If Darth Vader is focusing "solely and sightlessly on his will" "to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor," he was, factually, not consciously focusing his will on anything else except the Emperor's demise.Your rebuttal is nonsensical; yes, he has to live to accomplish his objective, but to conclude from that that he was actively focused on surviving is the fallacy of defective induction. Vader can still live and not be protecting himself - all it indicates is that he can withstand the Emperor's power with his passive defences.
Vader's survival is tantamount to the Emperor's destruction. If Vader did not require an active defense to reach the reactor shaft (e.g. if he was The Son), then he may not have put one up. If Vader did require an active defense to reach the reactor shaft or else he would die and fail to destroy the Emperor, then he would have put one up. It's impossible to know either way, so your argument that Vader defended himself with only a passive Force barrier is baseless.
2. FULL POTENCY
Darth Vader endured the Emperor's full potency.
This has two possible interpretations: full potency and full impact. The latter interpretation denotes that Vader merely tanked the amount/magnitude that was hitting Luke, which actively goes against the idea that Vader endured its full potency. However, if he had merely been struck by the full impact of the lightning torturing Luke, he wouldn't have died. Luke was electrocuted for far longer than Vader yet survived; Vader was electrocuted for a far shorter period than Luke yet died - the full impact interpretation simply doesn't add up and is contradicted by what actually occurred in the story.
This was already explained in Star Wars Insider: Vader died because the lightning critically injured his life support system, not because the lightning was far more potent than that which the Emperor used against Luke's.
D. DARTH VADER VERSUS LUKE SKYWALKER
Foremost, Anakin Skywalker: The Story of Darth Vader appears to be an in-universe source. Sansweet prefaces the bibliography with, "Historians are just beginning to uncover details of Anakin's early life, since numerous archives were destroyed during the Galactic Civil War. Furthermore, when Anakin assumed the mantle of Darth Vader he attempted to stamp out all vestiges of his former existence. One fact not in dispute is that young Anakin Skywalker was trained as a Jedi by Obi-Wan Kenobi." The wording pinpoints this writing within the Star Wars universe, as "historians are just beginning to uncover details," and it is obviously limited in knowledge and based on public consensus (e.g. "One fact not in dispute"). Thus, the contents within the book cannot be treated as canonical fact and are not necessarily reliable.
Furthermore, it's insulting to accuse me of "ignoring the context of the scene" by citing one never-before-scene source. Regardless of Sansweet's claim that Luke felt anger, Luke "was not battling to the fullest" in that particular exchange: "His anger was layered, now - he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest." After all, Luke feeling anger and giving into such anger for power are not mutually exclusive, as both can be true and even hinder Luke's performance. Thus, a Luke "not battling to the fullest" is canonically "equally skilled and powerful" with Vader, as substantiated by Vader's point-of-view while battling this holding-back Luke:
Source: The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader wrote: With incredible speed, Luke reactivated his weapon to parry Vader's attack. Vader swung again and again, but Luke blocked each blow. Soon, Vader was breathing hard through his respirator. I can't let Luke defeat me, Vader thought. I won't let the Emperor have him!
Stop posturing. These sources wouldn't emphasize Luke's growth between the Bespin and Endor fights then actually be secretly alluding to a power boost he received seconds earlier. Regardless, Fightsaber makes clear that Luke's "a match for Vader" because of his accelerated training: "By the time of the Battle of Endor, Luke Skywalker has studied some lightsaber technique from Obi-Wan's journal and greatly advanced his abilities. Without a Master, such advancement would be nearly impossible for most, but Skywalker's unparalleled aptitude makes him a match for Darth Vader in their fateful duel onboard the second Death Star."
There's a difference between Marek actively embracing the light side in a moment of explicit clairvoyance and Luke passively drawing on negative dark side emotions (Luke holding back and/or not even using the dark side for a portion of the fight aside). Further, given Marek gained such an increase in power from this (per your admission, "it made him powerful enough to telekinetically ragdoll the guy he was just seconds earlier even with"), Luke's "I'm a Jedi" moment may have likewise rewarded him an increase in power. Multiple sources even emphasize Luke's "strength" in that moment [1]	, even within the context of Luke being "stronger than the Emperor realized," indicating Force strength. Of course, Luke was still "so overwhelmed" and "powerless" against a fraction of the Emperor's might, substantiating Vader's belief that even him and Luke combined would not threaten the Emperor.
IV. THE FULL POWER OF ZIOST
Weakened spirit Vitiate didn't just cleanse all life on Ziost - he affected its outer core, magnetic fields, and atmosphere.
After Vitiate consumed Ziost, the GSI Exploratory Services sent a team to study newfound "geomagnetic pulses beneath the surface of Ziost" [1]	. According to the GSI journal entry, "It is unclear whether the planet's catastrophic event is responsible for the anomaly" [2]	, although such can be deduced given this "anomaly" "had been detected" only immediately following the devastation.
Note that "geomagnetic" refers to a planet's magnetic field [3]	. A planet's magnetic field is generated by the flowing of liquid metal in its outer core [4]	. This means, to create planetary geomagnetic pulses, Vitiate's wave of dark side energy must have affected Ziost's outer core. Further, immediately as the cataclysm began, "orbital sensors detected a planetary anomaly" [5]	. This was before the planet was consumed, and it is unlikely physical sensors could detect Force energy, so it's clear the sensors are reading these aforementioned changes in the outer core and/or magnetic field of the planet that are creating "a planetary anomaly." This explains why the space station above Ziost buckled [6]	(electromagnetic pulses rippled through it), and why the atmosphere of Ziost changed from standard to "acceptable" but dangerous [7]	(the magnetic field protecting the planet from its sun and cosmic rays was altered). Even after the initial energy wave, the pulses are shown to be potent enough to shake areas of the planet as they travel across it (i.e. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Csbgo9_VyQ&t=0m16s	), and they are likely responsible for a crashed GSI shuttle (as there wouldn't be anyone nearby to shoot the ship down after the planet's cleansed) [8]	.
((Edit: To slide in a clarification, I *don't know* if this feat shows power greater than the Dark Empire Palpatine's Force storms, hence why I emphasized that they're "arguably" greater "as far as I'm aware" on the extent of the Force storms. I removed that segment because I don't want that particular point to derail the thread, as I'm not all interested in debating, nor do I believe, that Revan is greater than Dark Empire Palpatine. Getting back on topic . . .))
Revan being capable of wiping out all life on a planet and altering its outer core is wildly beyond any realistic line of scaling for Vader. After all:
The Emperor is "much more powerful" than Vader.
The Emperor "would not feel threatened" if he fought Vader and Luke combined.
Vader believes he "could not hope to defeat" and "had no reason to ever believe he could defeat" the Emperor.
Vader believes the Emperor is "all-knowing" and "omniscient".
Vader and a holding-back Luke are equally strong in the Force according to five to eight sources.
Luke was "so overwhelmed" and "powerless" against a fraction of the Emperor's power.
Vader, after charging his power for minutes, having "super energy", and a lightning-resistant suit, still died to an off-guard Emperor.
Vader was ragdolled by Marek and twice defeated by an exhausted-beyond-belief Starkiller.
Vader would be "easily overwhelmed" by the same group of Marek clones that Starkiller disintegrated.
Vader has powers comparable to Maul and Dooku per George Lucas.
Fact is, Vader being nothing compared to the Emperor is the most factually-supported stance in the mythos.
Last edited by DarthAnt66 on January 1st 2020, 5:22 pm; edited 6 times in total
My Final Post: The Revan Killer
Rebuttals
Your problem is influenced by the idea of getting rid of a virus, which means that the Vivicar brain must be controlled. The direct line shows what Vivicar really means: "Blood has grown significantly, as you can imagine, although Jedi masters are all successful in the world." The disease connects hundreds of them - your own heart and your own link. "He speaks in the early" separation "and" closure "stages, indicating that they both look narrower. Vivicar is very popular as Vivicar's choice:" The problem depends on Masters for me ", it refers directly to the private" dehydration "contaminated germs - this proves what Vivicar means here and not the telepathic rule.
See the top of the word. The purpose of the culture is to protect the spiritual hatred, so if the person says, Vivicar's advice is beyond the game. The goal of the Barsasthor is very strong and proves that it is normal, but it was the team that made it possible to fight Vivicar, the first place, not the general public. Things that affect the feelings above are clear: if one survives Vivicar, it will be fine, but if it's too intense, even Vivicar people may be more. This means Vivicar is a powerful technician who is unable to lower the standard writing such as Revan.
You don't have to be late if you don't even argue: "Only once in Revan Power was finally surprised at the end of the Cold War, three hundred and seven years after the war, it will soon be multiplied." Visionates who have the ability to overcome more than three hundred years show a direct connection between spiritual and physical power and Revan is near or fully able to condemn to not judge. Start to succeed. Revan's power began to decline. How does it describe how the concepts are separated?
Thank you for submitting to Failkorion, you will need to spend some time off the schedule. * Knowledge and use of genuine changes are totally different and successful. The country is a complete telepathic system. Failkorion failed to reach five years before the use of the Armed Forces, in other words, indicating that lack of telepathetic power.
Vitiate even consciously chooses to use telepathy in battle, which defies all sensibility if his other abilities, like telekinesis, are distinctly more potent, which establishes a clear distinction between him and Horn (who biologically cannot use telekinesis).
> Scattered
> the right choice of war
> Understand the concept
... I don't really know what happens.How does the gas station use the worst power? He used it as a competitor to succeed in a defeat or if he had to produce heavy fires. How do they reject allergies?
Also, no, since The Clone Wars Episode Guide is recounting the events seen in Revenge, it's clearly referring to Dooku and Anakin Skywalker sensing Savage Opress' presence. Dooku explicitly makes note this is power related, "I can sense him, Grievous. That creature, Savage Opress, is growing stronger and stronger as each day passes"(link). Likewise, "Anakin senses a disturbance in the Force - the return of something sinister"(link), meaning he likewise senses Savage, which makes sense given he's at the same diner Savage was just at.
The text says that the story was created by "Savage Opress" to find lost brother, "You are not to beat yourself." You put your case on the second statistics: "Anakin feels violent - it's a scary." He speaks of salvation after the dinner (call, , instead of looking for Darth Maul, who came back here; It only proves that it is not the personal capacity of the skin, but the effect and the effectiveness of the formula The growing cause of Dwarves is clear and unrelated.
It doesn't matter if we have C-bundle cells confirming the potential of Tyranus or not, as it is clear that the translation is wrong. If you leave us, Father will only stay after the Maul and Dooku injuries and endure his life to the fire. Both know we are a false idea. That means if you see it, it's like Darth Maul or Count Dooku how to do it.
Because the rules are not chosen to meet, "every letter published Star Wars" is "a bit of truth to them." Ergo, we must try as little as possible as possible; When fully integrated resource looga negotiations, we should not waste it. In this case, one translation of Lucas comes with sources of sources, while others are linked to their relatives. So far, you can not prove why you need it, but try to force my body when another interpreter is more than the rules of the debate.
Anakin's ripe with fear and doubt. Per his Jedi teachings, he has to suppress these emotions when fighting, meaning he holds himself back and/or they weigh on his mind and distract him. However, when he forgoes his Jedi teachings and channels those feelings of insecurity into anger, he's able to clear his head and unleash his full power. That said, it's a two-way street. In emotionally charged situations, Anakin's anger can also feed into his fear and consume his mind: "On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter, but here now, within this ship, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell." These descriptions of Aargonar and Tatooine are what happened to Anakin on Mustafar: "The rage that boiled up in his brain threatened to block out his vision" (Source: Vader - The Ultimate Guide), "Yet it was as though when he had crushed the dragon under his boot, the dragon had sunk venomed fangs into his heel. Now its poison chilled him to the bone." (Source: Star Wars Revenge of the Sith adult novelization), etc. His emotions spiraled out of control, with his anger fueling his fear, his fear fueling his anger, and his anger fueling his fear again, weighing Anakin down with terror like he never before. Consequently, his powers weakened from being greater than the Emperor's (i.e. "Palpatine elevated himself to the position of Emperor, and dispatched Vader as his ultimate enforcer. With his unparalleled Force abilities, Vader swept through the Jedi Temple." (Source: Darth Vader databank, Star Wars official website)) to simply telekinetically stalemating Obi-Wan for a prolonged period of time.
Mustafar Father is not the only one who can talk directly to Mustafar's father to be stronger than Jedi Anakin, but also said he is the best known. George Lucas himself said less to the "emperor" to strike; Remember how to "start" to "But Obi-Wan caught his hands and feet to burn"; It is Lucas's injury that is cut off, not the kind of disability. He restored his position when it came to the character of every character of Nick Gillard, with the language: "The right idea gives you a very good idea of characters, because Anakin is learning about the fight, is good for someone." / "Of course we both give the idea of the hero, because Anakin teaches art, he has the power." / "He took LSD army, nine, did nothing right, but nine, you are but you have to do something." Ergo, but in his mind, Father at Mustafar is still 9 years old. The article you quote from Sith Retribution is even contrary to how to focus, not powerful.
In fact, like hell, there was no reduction in the power of the Father recently seen Obi-Wan to win, but clearly and emotionally and reasonably think: "The song is good". Remember: "Every troubles he has endured has threatened to take on his ignorance, blind and ignorant." Obi-Wan even said: "Finally, he promised me to kill me so I defend myself, blind" link ", which means" anger irrevocable "power.Because Yodoo refuses to be punished as Obi-Wan Kenobi, I will close the site and all the terms explained to me how to save the place and I will read most blogs if I write my contact.
Except Marek's "taunts" only further empowered Vader: "The intensity of Darth Vader's attack redoubled" (Source: Star Wars The Force Unleashed novelization). "Redoubled" means "to make twice as great in size or amount" (Source: Merriam-Webster), "to make something much stronger" (Source: Cambridge), "make or become much greater, more intense, or more numerous" (Source: Google), etc, which makes sense because Sith draw on anger for power and Marek's taunts utterly enraged Vader. HK-47's statements pertain to Jedi, who generally suffer the reverse effect. So, an amped-up Vader was brutally humiliated by Marek, who in turn was weaker than the Emperor.
Strengthening the father's attack does not mean that it is not psychological as it is; In fact, Galen will first remove his own place in his family - though he is happy, his challenge to Luke Skywalker's last flight: the situation is the same. Your opinion on HK-47 comments, especially Jedi, is not a lie, but also a mistake because he does not even talk about anger or anger, but it makes him "doubt, his life, his ambition or his ambition . "
For instance, in 21 BBY, Anakin held back a theta storm despite Obi-Wan noting even Yoda likely couldn't do that [1]. Of course, that doesn't mean sub-Dooku Anakin's somehow more applicably powerful than Yoda in the Force. Rather, in feats that require continuous Force exertion, Anakin (and Marek) can immerse themselves into their unprecedented Force reserves to outlast and outperform almost anyone. Even if Vader's applicably comparably powerful to the Marek that nudged a Star Destroyer, that doesn't mean he can maintain such a level of power for the required duration to pull off the feat. Vader's smaller Force reserves, reflected in his weaker potential, will clock him out far quicker.
If force force can use the performance, it is the power that does not rely on their power. We never see the basis of your in-depth thoughts. However, even *: "The concepts that require ongoing efforts, Anakin (and Mare) are trying to impose their unprecedented powers and have been better than others." Do not go "Anakin has postponed the storm even if Obi, if you see Yoda, may not be". What can you do with Obi-Wan Yoda? You need more than one point to support your conclusion.
The Lightsaber absence caused the connection as Father tried his hard ear in his memory, why didn't you originally save other legs of Galen Marere? However, Darth Vader was more than anyone else. They were together to test honest loyalty if he continued to teach teachers, even if he had ordered to stop them (like the previous account), which explains why they would stop fighting. And no, it doesn't happen in the original original debate, because if Dark Knight hit Father right away, there was no battle to blame black. It was a long time, but Father brought the central feature of the hearing loss - the most important explanation.
Of course, "Galen's Clones" means the black school student and the strongest star.However, Starkiller believes that rocks may be easily deleted by Darth Vader, but only meet the first game of the father. However, reports from the Mujahideen Army's first show in TFU II Dad >>>> >>> endless types of joint >> TFU father, and three in the third sarkaalkayga: "the fact that strong enable strong TFP Palpatine is just one year of strong TFP Palpatine, indicating Darth Vader to produce a kingdom called Imperor, so the amount of growth in annual high which will be before the Jedi himself to be low. "
Starkiller was not "rage-amped" during the lightning barrage. The fact Starkiller screamed while blasting Vader does not mean he even tapped into the dark side, let alone fully immersed himself in it, as doing such is outright contradictory to the novel. Early into the duel, Starkiller gained a burst of clarity, realizing he must avoid the dark side and contain his anger and despair: "Sudden understanding burst in Starkiller's mind. This was what Darth Vader had wanted all along. He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair" (Source: Star Wars The Force Unleashed 2 novelization). Later, Starkiller even plead with Vader to join the Rebellion: "The Rebels want to destroy the Emperor. Why not work with them rather th-?" (Source: Star Wars The Force Unleashed 2 novelization).
You have totally neglected other parts of the event. Starkiller's video conference "My father has repeatedly attacked a government that has been convicted." The only word he speaks is killing. In all competitions, Starkiller have clearly shown blue and white, which is the symbol of the war, without power and creativity. Game Prima Official Game Game also wrote "Powerful Starkiller" to use the speed of his father ahead of more than 20 seconds, the version Wii (version).
The lifting is not even indicative of superiority over the near-dead Starkiller either, given Vader still lost that fight anyway and would have also lost the fight directly beforehand if Starkiller had not suffered from a sudden vision the moment he went to strike Vader down:
Game Prima Game Babies are under the power of the user, and we have cases in the Father who can cause a problem. He works for Starkiller when he is not a poor person but a winner, a hundred percent.
Can we read the same book? Luke "the unspeakable war" clearly indicates that he will not fight the Father. * I have an idea and I'm trying to figure out the Rise and Darth Vader symbol. Luke leads to Satire Anakin Skywalker: Darth Vader's story.
The witness of the Father in Luke's body is uncertain. Luke designs did not change what they were in the UK: "Luukos, you can not understand your meaning, if you have started to realize your ability, follow me and complete your training." Together we can stop this disagreement and I will give you an order. "[Luke], you can destroy the monarch, saying," I am, follow me, and we are both the father and son. " "Please, Father, please Luke, please as we hope that Luke would come back to his friends, if he destroyed the early abductors of both the Father and Palpatine, they needed the first training when he was not ready to wear right-hand Father" I believe the king . "His teacher feels his ambition when he understands, rather than enjoy a radical plan without fear of the death of the Kingdom.
If the Kingdom wants a strong person, they all rely on the subject, since it is the first exercise that he is able to use; The father does not touch the monarch, but does not mean he can be close to his power. On the other hand, the Kingdom has the power and ability to advocate for one day: Darth Maul, Asajj Ventress, Galen Marek, Gethzerion, Jerec, etc. In contrast, the Queen will not be confidential for one of the smallest costs of the customers.
The ideas that Vader's body was physically weakened and that Vader was overall empowered by "focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act" across the span of "minutes" are not mutually exclusive. Moreover, combined with Vader's hyper-concentrated energies is the "super energy" (i.e. Vader gained a "super," or "exceeding the norm," amount of available energy) he received "out of wanting to protect his son, out of compassion." So, Vader both charged up his power like never before and got a super power boost on top of that. Now, consider The Wrath of Darth Maul. Maul went from being on the brink-of-death after suffering near-mortal wounds (e.g. "His wound became worse. The pain was beyond excruciating. He had no doubt that death would come soon. He thought he was hallucinating when he saw a cloaked figure appear at the mount of the cave.") to feeling more powerful than ever before (e.g. "Maul felt his rage flowing through his veins, pumping energy into every muscle. He felt so powerful that he believed he could accomplish anything.") after immersing himself in the Force. Likewise, if Kit Fisto was tortured for three years, had his tentacles ripped off him, and his legs snapped, then was empowered with the energies of The Father, Fisto would still become infinitely more powerful than before. The fact Vader's physically injured is ultimately irrelevant to the fact he's imbued with an unbelievable amp,
How do they share? Will it really explain? You can repeat the continuous events of routine and regular events with reference to inappropriate examples about the status of the Father. * His body is not restricted; It is "bad" because it is different, because the army is also a key factor in determining the physical power of the Father. Since growing conditions, only the need to reduce machine daanjooga, and visual imagery, which means that the film, which means that the label is the size of the power of the Father, Ergo. are you Because the Father is weak in his body he does not normally pass the usual power. "Since Maul and Kit Fisto are stronger than usual, not just the Father, since the nature of the device is unique: love, anger and power, you think it is not comparable to the second.a
not to mention his armor is specifically modified to maximize defense against Force lightning via insulation and systems that mitigate and release extreme heat. Even then, Vader still died! Why you have made this feat your central argument is beyond me.
The guns are painted, but they are still vulnerable to light bulbs, so the cigarette is damaged. even the mighty power of mighty powers of his death. Ergo, if he had no light, would have died despite his weakness. It shows that it looks better than Father, not bad. Evaluation is simple: it is beyond the impedor line.
Revolution Revolution Revolution Revolution Revolution Revolution Revolution Revolution Revolution Revolution Revolution Revolution Spirit Revan said, "You think you're strong, but you do not," clearly demonstrates the power, not wisdom or self-control. Although many actors encounter the army, they may reclaim Revan most likely to be destroyed by his Shias oil and Smith Superpower in the new Savage Opress tree rather than the individual power. "Both the Jedi and Sith feel movements, energy and materials made available to his brother Savage Opress lost - not one of the fighters Sith Darth Maul." he revives, he only "backs up his old power" and "has the only reproductive power" * although the fact that he made an expensive and vibrant ship to fill his power. "With small plants reinforcing all Revan powers in the story, it proves that they are not capable of Shadow or Revan.
Let's see what really happened to revive the Vitiate spirit. At Yavin IV "obtained" by filling in the "points of death" and balancing only "thousands", which is "ujoogay" no action. At Ziost, "only one death from the cities of the west" and "the death of every force needed to look at the black," has the emerging power of every death, the "incredible" link tradition and he does not think Once it is thousands of cities possible, he is in faith when he returns without interruption.All these things include rape and uncertainty of hell that is unreasonable. * Holy Temple "is meant for" Vitiate's "unwanted" to repeat the characteristics of visual features "designed to eliminate all living things in the moon" and "Sith Imperor power by the link: Any death caused by the Temple directly to Vitiate without any more "rape and uncertainty" or something else, if Revan only kills the world because of the sole purpose of the temple - and Vitiate should only be restored, causing death and nourishment.
Even with Revan's help, but it is not sure that it was not what they did in the temple. It is the most powerful weapon of the moon, as the Revolutionary Revolutionary War. "Revan Revolt returned only one kilometer, not the whole world, showing that he did not use the entire temple - not to mention the game, the only power of the machine, its power was called the most powerful force, and we could not control its inner power, which is not the same as the power of the force like power, except Revan:
Strengthening the dark side of Yavin IV.
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As with the "war, the most comprehensive interpretation," Revan "from many groups, always working. In addition, all materials are the same as what you forbid. In this case, Revan did not find the office, and he could not use his energy for more than two minutes, and how many could damage the garden, so the results are not here.
If Revan Shadow starts to get a video because you think the cluster is going fast or later. * Transportation suggests it could be an attack when it only gets reen time, so it is not really a second time (you are stronger for a long time), especially when a group of players and letters. The same.* Road to the road: 8The world revolution did not take place in its power. When they come to the light, they say, "Praise be to God," the demon is better than any attire, which can be black or dark. All of these are: all Rakatan tools are used for energy, and Star Forge - which is very different from the Quran - one of the most beautiful creatures. (Link); The table and clothes are also black, making this a dark force. Therefore, Revan should wear his clothes and tie Darth Nihilus and the middle in the middle and the body was time. Emperor Palpatine is not a mistake if the king is not bound to his journey and should be "straight". * Revan returned to black like all Sith power. He admitted that he refused to reject him and "the only way to continue - to be" if he agreed, "finish" and "down", because if the power is not accepted in black or inaccessible. You left everything as you explained it. **
* SCHOOL DISTRICT: 23
** Notice: 2
More: Yes, Duron Qel-Droma says Revan could wear Qal-Droma clothes when he fights Darth Malak (link). However, Duron's view is wrong when Revan wore his clothes, we know he didn't come back five years after the end of the Knights at the University of Old he'd never seen. There will be a Droma Droma error, as in the clothes and photo of Revan. Great reforms are Revan to wear Droma clothing until he recovers Forge Forge.
Although Revan started as the German Shit friends in Japan: Revan, the three Revan Electrics, produced a large range of these two. Revan Shit The revolution of the revolution at that time does not mean the meaning of communication and Revan's own words is the key to reinforcing private technology that even lesser and wants to resist the Telefathy Shit Emperor. Finally, Revan has changed every time his power falls: When the gap is enough, the Shiite hero can be able to break Revan easily, but in the case of the game it does not fall almost everyday because he will return 100% every time he hit 1% (link). Though there is no stronger, even the Royal Kingdom can not test his experiment for ever, so eventually he would die, they must stop and try again.
G g kiki a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a a e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e e Revan Revan's help. "These are the pairs of the showbread; for she saith, I will not revive vain; for it is a day of the voices, which is so willing to call such a one." Revolution og "weikast" í Vitiate greinni er sú hugmynd að "ómögulegt" og jafnvel þótt þú dæmir udheer að úskýra, Vanilla Old Republic is called Ai Ziost er mikilvægasta tegund hefndarinnar.
You are currently not logged in. You are not logged in. Login Nimco | Nimco | | | | | | | | | | | You can participate in Nixus, where you are about to avoid having what you are talking about. Want to get what you want? nexus, dhammaan doodaha. Medriaas Cawad has a drug that is prominent in mind, which is darteed "weyn". Aa waxa loola jeedaa geerida siyaasadeed a taariikhyahanadu cunaan waxyaabo badan oo nolosha ah (waa qalad in la anaado in ayayd zildrog oo cunay medriaas, maaha albaabka madow), this was very good. Wax walba waxay leeyihiin tilmaamo cad oo muuqaalka muuqaalku ka xog badan yahay dareenka Vitiate.
You shall therefore take away from Israel seven full weeks: and ye shall observe to do all my statutes, and all his princes. The most hero of Tython is the sloist horny fever. Mundi Hvernig Vitiate is a Nigerian Njia Sjálandi and All All Women's Songs, Svo Vitiate Ertagar ska og sama sama og hijo Hero-lögmálið. Goddess is a great hobby of the hugra of the hugra of the hugra of the hugra of the hugland, the voicemail of the world, the hail of the trail of the day of the Failon er the Bretland myth of the city of the city of the city of Tython III, the city of Emitoor leik Vanilla, is the smallest fyrst. "Let me give you the verdict of Canonical Superior Outon Revan," he said. Eina ástæðan fyrir Því að Revan væri að við skjet við skjen vegðe vðð vðð að hann stormur - og oggægilegt hugrakkur - svart og svart horn
The fame is to be played by the Vaylin og Arcann. Failkorion sagging wikkersen london london london London london london london These companies include Vaylin. On the other hand, they are foremost at the generator and show that they can even be connected. Soldiers are probably out slowly.
Why Vader wins
Darth Vader he Darthar Tyranus, Mauluna he revan. Einsi og l'úú hátti og hátti og tók þát íVerið varkár með orðum. Hún segir "árásin", qashqashaad, sir shekir kudheer Wargeysku wuxuu ku yaryaraa Yuu, oo wuxuu ku yaryaraa Dukumi. Jedi Soda Yoda TV and men play, Mace Windu, Clones. Phantom Menace Erayga Mace Winda was talaabo adag Hardline, Isbaanish ah Yoda and alltaf tapað. Oo wuxuu ku yidhi, Bal eeg, wa kan Rab u Rab Rab Rab rab Rab Rab rab Rab k k k k k k ale í stríðinu. Jason Taariikhda Dhaqaalaha Iyo Garsoorka waxaa ka mid ah Canon.
Darth Vader (link)> Darth Tyranus >>>> TPM Mace> Revan Reborn. Of course, I think did Vader is very powerful, but that's your interpretation of Lucas, quote, wuxuu ahaa mid ka mid ah, ka hor Vader Even then, when I would have given the points is my third end. The power of Revan is important if you opt for a child, oo ka mid ah, oo aan ahayn, wuxuu ahaa you do. Even if you can get Revan Reborn, Vader, and even better, Darth Vader is more than a revan.My inquiries Darth Vader> suit Vader / Anakin Skywalker steven qashin qubeyska. In addition to the sixth, I have two others. In earlier wargeyska Vader, the reference to power and ability is "forever over the toddler". Second, we heard seven words from Vader and stronger than Anakin. Think waa dhimasho number: how long has it been restored? Rotj Vader ANH Vader >>> Anakin Skywalker (> Red Sidious >>> ... >>> >>> Boqortooyada Boqortooyada SoR Revan) Istaageerada Dhawrsoon and Meel Wanaagsan.
Uncertainty of confidence is likely to bring the brain into the [Sidious] battle of body, "and" the amazing power of his life. "Before Imperor Vader Darkness," which was "bad". "The rest, Marek, opposing Imparer's power, has a strange surgery, Professor Dark says that there is no" RotS is a powerful and powerful vader, he was "impossible" for three years, which was "bad". to become the Somali Republic, see Vader Vader specifically, so it does not seem to be too sensitive to flooding when it comes to small arms.
"Importantly, the blood Vader was put into; replacing unprecedented views. It was as though it had been in the unprecedented stage of the new world. It feels dark with a soft softening. He felt frustrated with the tricks, he said, with weapons and equipment, yet more. And they smote Jethro…" - Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader
on July 12th 2019, 9:19 am
Over the course of this debate, DarthAnt66 has violated the debate rules repeatedly, but especially in his third post: he excluded the recaps out of his character count, making it look like he had only typed around 35 500 characters (which already exceeded the character limit), whereas in reality his post contains around 43 800 characters - almost 9 000 characters more than what was agreed in the rules. Nothing about recaps being outside the character count was discussed when formulating the rules; he acted unilaterally without consulting me, the judges, or anyone prior to publishing his third post.
It should only be fair then that I be granted the same boon - my fourth post shall thus have a character limit of 48 800 characters. This does not mean we are lifting the rules, however; this is simply compensation for Ant's own transgression. He will not be granted any extra characters in his next post, and thus its limit shall be 40 000 characters as agreed upon initially.
I. DARTHANT66 VS DARTHANT66
It's not some balancing effect. Yes, passive dark side energies of Yavin 4 flowed through Revan, amplifying him. Further, Revan concentrated the powers of the Machine Core into himself, meaning he had both the stream of power from the Yavin 4 nexusand the Machine Core. However, Revan lost control of these energies when attacked, and they "overloaded" within him. Thus, the passive dark side energies that were originally amplifying Revan were no longer at his disposal but actively included in the "backlash" of harmful energy against him. In other words, Revan can't use the same out-of-control energies literally ripping him apart to simultaneously prevent him from being ripping him apart - that doesn't make any sense.
Only once Revan's power finally wane at the end of the Cold War, three-hundred and seven years after the mental war began, does Meetra worry Vitiate will soon overwhelm him, stating, "The darkness will consume all it touches. Stars will burn black, ashes raining on lifeless worlds. Everything ends. The prisoner holds the darkness at bay, lost inside it for three-hundred years. His strength will fail, and he will become the darkness."
Vitiate's inability to overpower Revan's defenses for three-hundred years indicates a direct correlation between mental fortitude and Force strength.
When Revan was close to or at full strength, Vitiate was unable to dominate him; He only begins to succeed as Revan's Force power begins to diminish.
Sure, Revan was temporarily "stunned and unable to act" for three seconds after internally tanking kilometer-afflicting energies. While you clearly did not put a lot of thought into this argument, what exactly do you think happened while Revan was "stunned and unable to act"? That the coalition strike team sat back and drank juice boxes until Revan got back up? Revan would be immobile on the floor as dozens of enemies stab him with lightsabers and fire blasters and explosives (which is exactly what happens in-game). If Revan's "unable to act," then he's incapable of actively using the Force, meaning he absorbed all the attacks through sheer force of will and still got back up and continued fighting. Note that Revan remained fully conscious during this time, even speaking, "No! I won't be denied! I will never give in!"
DarthAnt66 inextricably links Force power with willpower to claim Revan must have grown in lockstep with the Shit Emperor, but arbitrarily separates them so Revan would be able to exert his will to its fullest without using the Force…
Edit: To slide in a clarification, I *don't know* if this feat shows power greater than the Dark Empire Palpatine's Force storms, hence why I emphasized that they're "arguably" greater "as far as I'm aware" on the extent of the Force storms. I removed that segment because I don't want that particular point to derail the thread, as I'm not all interested in debating, nor do I believe, that Revan is greater than Dark Empire Palpatine. Getting back on topic . . .
DarthAnt66 has forbidden me from rescinding my points when it benefits Revan, but he himself literally edits his post (link	) so he wouldn't look bad…
As for Revan and Vitiate, both paused and gathered their energies beforehand. Thus, the power difference was naturally exasperated, and the potency of Vitiate's lightning became greatly amplified relatively. Vitiate also began charging his energies before Revan and was boosted by the dark side nexus of both Dromund Kaas and the Imperial Citadel.
Yes, passive dark side energies of Yavin 4 flowed through Revan, amplifying him.
This is consistent with how Revan is unfazed by a direct lightsaber strike from Satele Shan in the Shadow of Revan launch trailer [1], and further substantiation that Revan's powered by his will.
DarthAnt66 downplays the feats of other characters when they are on a nexus, but uses Revan's when it benefits the argument…
DarthAnt66 uses sources that contradict the primary source material like the Shadow of Revan launch trailer where Revan never removes his mask during the duel, the entire strike team sans Satele disappears for some reason, and there are soldiers fighting on both sides at one point (link	), but he thinks it's wrong to use sources that feature different events to the primary source material in arguments that favor Darth Vader…
DarthAnt66 claims a ritual is required to resuscitate a spirit to make an excuse for Revan using the Temple of Sacrifice - "a device for mass ritual sacrifice" "capable of killing every living thing on this moon, as fuel for the Emperor's resurrection" (link	) - instead of just liquidating the biosphere with a snap of his fingers, but argues the Ziost feat isn't a ritual despite it being designed to "replenish" Vitiate and he was in fact "revitalized after annihilating all life on Ziost," "grew stronger," and experienced a "rebirth" (link	)…
DarthAnt66 agreed to a set of rules, but lambasts me for abiding by those rules as if I've done something wrong…
Also, you can't attribute feats like these to Vader given Marek has "the potential to be the most powerful Force user ever" (Source: Star Wars Insider 100).
DarthAnt66 agreed to a set of rules, but ignores those rules by citing an author quote (link	) in an argument against Darth Vader…
DarthAnt66 argues Starkiller would have lost because he was distracted by a vision, but ignores the fact that Darth Vader's lightning-stiffened prosthetics immobilized him, which amounted to "a distraction" that "lasted only a moment" (link	) and claims his loss was legitimate…
Anyway, Revan channels the energies of The Machine to devastate all life in a one-kilometer radius, with his pulsations of power during the channel already afflicting all in the radius. The strike team attacks Revan (link), making the energies "overload" or "backlash" inside of Revan. Any conventional Force user would die if a kilometer-spanning energies released within them; internal organs aren't coated with a Force shield. Revan surviving suggests his body is tethered to his will, not biological function, substantiating spirit Revan's statement that, "You've carried on, dragging the remains of a body that should have long since faded to dust"(link).
DarthAnt66 invents new rules about how the Force works to wank Revan's willpower, but throws those rules aside and claims Vader withstanding Starkiller's lightning ravaging his innards is just a failed application of a standard Force barrier…
DarthAnt66 uses an entirely in-universe source written before any of The Old Republic's expansions like The Old Republic Encyclopedia (link	) in an argument that favors Revan, but thinks such sources "cannot be treated as canonical fact and are not necessarily reliable" in arguments that favor Darth Vader…
Also, in The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, Vader notes that the Emperor "would not feel threatened" even if him and Luke teamed up to destroy him because "the Emperor was simply too powerful": "Vader grimaced. A year had passed since his last encounter with Luke Skywalker on Cloud City, where he had revealed his identity to Luke and told him it was his destiny to destroy the Emperor. Vader suspected that the Emperor knew of this treachery, for the Emperor knew everything eventually. But even if the Emperor were aware of all that had transpired, Vader was certain he would not feel threatened. The Emperor was simply too powerful." In other words, Vader believes not only would the Emperor not be defeated by the combined power of Luke and him, but he wouldn't even be phased by the prospect. (link)
DarthAnt66 dismisses character opinions that contradict out-of-universe sources in arguments favoring Darth Vader, but endorses them in arguments against him…
DarthAnt66 agreed to a set of rules, but ignores those rules by citing an author quote in an argument against Darth Vader…
FALLACY COUNTER: 12
II. DARTHANT66 VS MEN OF STRAW
It's not a strawman if I never said you argued he could have killed all life within that radius. What is a strawman, though, is you claiming I did.
Since 1200 AD [1]. "Large" means "of more than average size, quantity, degree, etc." (Source: Dictionary.com), "big in size or amount" (Source: Cambridge), "of considerable or relatively great size, extent, or capacity" (Source: Oxford), "having more than usual capacity or scope" or "exceeding most other things of like kind especially in quantity or size" (Source: Merriam-Webster), "of considerable or relatively great size, extent, or capacity" (Source: Google), etc.
There was no rebuttal to my Valley of the Jedi point.
You ignored all four of my quotes about Mustafar Vader being more powerful than Jedi Anakin.
I didn't make assertions about Lucas' opinion. I merely cited a line from the book.
Further, when you look at the "seven quotes," they're all deeply flawed.
You ignored Vader musing his power was "greater than it had ever been."
The fact Starkiller "howls with rage" doesn't mean he's in a state of Force rage. "Rage" and "Force rage" are not synonymous. "Rage" is just an emotion that Sith, for instance, always use in battle. "Force rage," however, is a specific Force application of totally surrendering oneself to their rage and dark side. The practitioner is consumed in a frenzy of dark side emotion (e.g. Darth Maul on Hypori, Jacen Solo on Coruscant, etc.), which grants "increased power for a short period of time" (Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia). Once the bloodlust subsides, the user is "drained of huge amounts of energy," and "has to recuperate for an extended period of time before being able to call upon the dark side again" (Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia). Based on this description, you have literally nothing suggesting Starkiller went into Force rage.
You ignored my Dessel example. If an utter ignoramus regarding the Force has all his fatigue erased upon feeling intense rage, then obviously it doesn't require any special Force technique. Anger making oneself more powerful is literally one of the central narratives in all of Star Wars (we don't even need to look at Star Wars; this is a thing in real life too (link	)); it's a quicker path to power and the reason why so many find the dark side alluring and more powerful. Why would the Sith even feel the need to be angry 24/7 if there were no benefits? There isn't any difference between "rage" and "Force rage"*, only varying degrees of the former.
Further, aren't you arguing Starkiller was Force enraged at the start of the duel? Which is it - the start or the end? Even your own argument isn't consistent, nor does it explain how Starkiller already defeated Vader without Force rage in the cloning tower. Thus, without even the slightest substantiation to your Force rage argument, it's clear Starkiller's lightning barrage was in a state of near-death exhaustion, which explains the screaming. Remember, Starkiller "never felt so exhausted" directly before the fight in the cloning tower (since he just unleashed the totality of his Force power twice-over in the span of an hour), then had two prolonged fights with Vader that would further deplete the fraction of power he had left. The fact Vader was overwhelmed by such a weakened Starkiller is proof that a rejuvenated Starkiller would utterly crush Vader. (link)
You ignored my Boba Fett point.
There's a difference between Marek actively embracing the light side in a moment of explicit clairvoyance and Luke passively drawing on negative dark side emotions (Luke holding back and/or not even using the dark side for a portion of the fight aside). Further, given Marek gained such an increase in power from this (per your admission, "it made him powerful enough to telekinetically ragdoll the guy he was just seconds earlier even with"), Luke's "I'm a Jedi" moment may have likewise rewarded him an increase in power. Multiple sources even emphasize Luke's "strength" in that moment [1] , even within the context of Luke being "stronger than the Emperor realized," indicating Force strength. Of course, Luke was still "so overwhelmed" and "powerless" against a fraction of the Emperor's might, substantiating Vader's belief that even him and Luke combined would not threaten the Emperor.
I never said Galen's boost "made him powerful enough to telekinetically ragdoll the guy he was just seconds earlier even with." I was pointing out that is what you argued.
refers to "of discouraging or awesome strength, size, difficulty, etc" rather than "causing fear, apprehension, or dread" given both are the living embodiments of fear throughout the Empire, and The Anointed Screenplay states, "My sense of the relationship is that the Emperor is much more powerful than Vader and that Vader is very much intimidated by him," based on the events of The Empire Strikes Back, and Vader believes "he could not hope to defeat" (Source: Vader The Ultimate Guide) and "had no reason to ever believe he could defeat" (Source: The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader) the Emperor, so it's clear they're not equally powerful.
I never argued they're equally powerful. There's more that goes into combative formidability than Force power, namely lightsaber prowess, which Vader had in excess of Jedi Anakin Skywalker a year later, meaning Vader would have to be quite close by The Empire Strikes Back, while the Emperor remained on the level of Yoda and Mace Windu, which is beneath Anakin's level (link	). If Vader is the Emperor's rival in Force power and superior in lightsaber dueling, it's perfectly reasonable they would be "equally formidable" in combat. That interpretation makes more sense than yours, since the Emperor is explicitly not a "living embodiment of fear" but "beloved" and enjoying "the support of the ignorant masses," many of whom "distrusted the concept of an emperor, yet trusted Palpatine," and "regard Palpatine as a demigod" (link	). Likewise, Darth Vader is clearly not the Emperor's match as a political manipulator, so the interpretation most consistent with the lore is indeed the combative one.
I have not argued that. I argued that because Vader was "focusing solely and sightlessly on his will" "to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor," he was, per the dictionary definition of "solely," not using a Force barrier as he wasn't focusing on maintaining an active defense. And since the only thing required in killing the Emperor is hurling him down the shaft, which is a physical activity, the feat was solely accomplished through physical augmentation, meaning physical augmentation functions as a measuring stick for Vader's Force power in that situation. Ergo, as Vader was physically weaker than usual, he was less powerful in the Force than normal. Vader walking through the Emperor's lightning for that long in a weakened condition without an active Force defense indicates he could also do it in prime condition, especially while maintaining an active defense.
I was obviously speaking in the context of your argument as the only thing you proved was that Vader was stronger than when he was "weaker than he'd ever been" which in itself doesn't prove he would be stronger than he would be normally. I have no clue how you overlooked something this obvious when in the very next paragraph (and earlier paragraphs) I provide evidence that even when empowered by "the super energy," Vader was still weaker than usual.
You ignored my argument: "But wouldn't the fact that Vader was weakened explain why he died so quickly, invalidating my argument? No, because Luke had his active defences breached by even the smallest fraction of the lightning's potency, and was toppled to the floor and started convulsing uncontrollably as the bolts' intensity increased. Vader could actually walk through the Emperor's lightning barrage without breaking stride with his passive defences, and him being weakened doesn't take away from that. So even while weakened, Vader is still Luke's vast superior, and therefore the full impact interpretation makes no sense, and we are left with the full potency one." Your argument does not refute this fact, and only widens the gap between Vader and Luke since if his respiratory systems being disabled were a bigger contributor to his demise than the lightning's potency, it puts him even closer to the Emperor than before.
IGNORING MY ARGUMENTS / CONCESSION ACCEPTED COUNTER: 6
III. DARTHANT66 VS AZRONGER
Your argument is predicated on the idea that "succumbing" to the plague means being mind-controlled by Vivicar. The full line reveals what Vivicar actually means: "My plague has spread farther than you can imagine. Jedi Masters across the galaxy are succumbing to it as I speak. The plague binds these Masters to me. Hundreds of them - the heart and soul of your order" (link	). He speaks "has spread" in past tense while "succumbing" and "binds" are in present tense, indicating the latter two are happening contemporaneously with one another, which is all the more clear in Vivicar's word choice: "The plague binds these Masters to me"; he's directly referencing the specific Masters that are "succumbing" to the plague at the same time they're being bound to him - it's obvious what Vivicar means here and it's not telepathic domination.
Look at the wording of the above quotes carefully. The ritual's purpose is to protect the user from mental enslavement, so if one has it, Vivicar's telepathy is out of the game. The Barsen'thor defeats him, proving he is conventionally superior, yet it was the shielding ritual that made him eligible to fight Vivicar in the first place, not his general meliority. The implications of the above quotes are thus obvious: if one's safe from Vivicar's telepathy, they'll be fine, but when vulnerable, even people capable of defeating Vivicar conventionally would get dominated. This means Vivicar's telepathy is a disproportionately potent savant skill that more conventionally powerful characters like Revan cannot scale off of.
It doesn't have to be a rebuttal if you don't even make an argument: "Only once Revan's power finally wane at the end of the Cold War, three-hundred and seven years after the mental war began, does Meetra worry Vitiate will soon overwhelm him [...] Vitiate's inability to overpower Revan's defenses for three-hundred years indicates a direct correlation between mental fortitude and Force strength. When Revan was close to or at full strength, Vitiate was unable to dominate him; He only begins to succeed as Revan's Force power begins to diminish." How does that explain how the two notions aren't mutually exclusive?*
Thanks for conceding Failkorion required time to hollow the Outlander out.* Hollowing a psyche out and using essence transfer are entirely separate powers and feats, with the former being an entirely telepathic process. Failkorion failing at it for five years straight against a Force user he could otherwise one-shot is indicative of his lack of ability for telepathy.
In contrast, Vitiate's telepathic ability is consistently touted by sources utterly disproportionate to any other power he possesses.
It seems you still haven't learned the lesson of citing sources for your claims from post 1.*
>Vitiate
>conscious choices in battle
>defying sensibility
...genuinely not sure what the issue is.
How is the Shit Emperor using his weakest power a bad tactic anyway? He's only ever used it as an opening move to test if his foes break or if he needs to bring out heavier guns. How does that "defy all sensibility"?
Vitiate's rebirths are admittedly too ambiguous to draw conclusions from for a formal debate
CONCESSION ACCEPTED COUNTER: 8
The text states the disturbance is "being created by Savage Opress's quest to find his lost brother," not Savage himself. And you destroyed your own case with that second citation: "Anakin senses a disturbance in the Force - the return of something sinister." That's evidently not referring to Savage as he just left the diner (link	), but rather his quest to find Darth Maul, who is the one returning here; this just corroborates that it wasn't Savage's personal power causing the ripples but his activities and their cosmic impact. Dooku sensing his growing power is a separate and unrelated phenomenon entirely.
Wrong. Yoda had no prior connection to Savage yet felt the disturbance before anyone else (link	).
Where is it stated the blast "approached the power to destroy everyone outright"? How do you know it was near completion?*
It doesn't matter whether we have a C-canon source confirming Tyranus' potential or not, since it's obvious my interpretation is correct regardless. If we went by yours, Vader would be on Maul and Dooku's level immediately following his injuries and remain static throughout his life after being burned - both of which we know to be false notions (link	). That's literally what you get if you view "From then on" "he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku" the way you do.
Because according to the very rules we have chosen to abide by, "each piece of published Star Wars fiction" "contains a nugget of truth to them" (link	). Ergo, we should strive for as few contradictions as possible and reconcile them to the best of our ability; only when sources are in completely unsolvable conflict with one another should we toss some out. In this case, one interpretation of Lucas' statement erases a mountain of sources while the other seamlessly integrates the rest of the lore into it. So far you have been unable to prove why the former is inarguably the correct one yet are trying to force it down my throat when a different interpretation is more in line with the debate rules.
Not only have at least four sources directly stated Mustafar Vader was more powerful than Jedi Anakin, but he has also been noted to be "the Jedi's most formidable threat," and George Lucas himself even comments how he was at least "as strong as the Emperor" until he got maimed (link	); note how the "From then on" is directly preceded by "But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up"; it's the injuries that Lucas identifies as the cut-off point, not any sort of mental handicaps. He further reaffirms his stance when discussing the power levels of each character with Nick Gillard, who he uses as a mouthpiece: "The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented" / "In fact, the duel gives us an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the art, has an enormous talent" / "He took Force LSD. And that's what made him a nine. So that's dangerous. It's dangerous because he hasn't done it the right way. But it's still a nine, you know? It's still something that you need to deal with" (link	). Ergo, despite his mental issues, Vader on Mustafar is still a 9. The passage you cite from Revenge of the Sith doesn't even contradict this; it's about how focused he is, not how powerful. Red herring.*
*FALLACY COUNTER: 19
Vader being "overwhelmed with rage" doesn't mean his rage made him weaker when multiple sources state the opposite. The actual meaning is even conveyed in the very sentence you're citing: "Obi-Wan takes advantage of Darth Vader's weaknesses and defeats him." What weaknesses did Obi-Wan take advantage of again? Ah, yes:
It sure as hell wasn't any decrease in Force strength Vader experienced at the last second that allowed Obi-Wan to defeat him but clearly arrogance and inability to think properly: "the Sith Lord's arrogance got the better of him" (link	). As you yourself noted, "The rage that boiled up in his brain threatened to block out his vision" which left him "blinded" and "mindless." Obi-Wan even comments on this afterwards: "In the end, he was more determined to kill me than defend himself, and was blind with fury when I felled him" (link	). That is what is being meant by "overwhelmed by rage," not any lessening in Force power.
As to how a Yoda-tier fighter could be stalemated by someone like Obi-Wan Kenobi, I'll link a blog where the whole situation is explained since I need to conserve space and I'd just be regurgitating most of the blog if I wrote my own explanation anyway (link	).
and the quote is clearly outdated anyway. Vader absolutely did not "thrive" in his suit, nor was the iconic design his own idea. These statements were written back in 1988 and don't reflect current continuity. For a more modern take: "Far from gaining infinite power, he now lived his life in constant pain, never again to touch the skin of another. Only by sealing himself in a hyperbaric medical chamber could Vader peel away his body plating, and his efforts to heal his shattered body through the Force were humiliating failures. He had joined Palpatine in the hopes of overcoming death; instead he had killed his wife and wiped out his surrogate family, the Jedi" (Source: Vader - The Ultimate Guide). Regardless, an outdated and obscure RPG source from the 1980s has no bearing on whether or not Lucas thinks Vader's comparable to Maul in 2005.
If a line or two is retconned, then only those lines are retconned, and nothing else per the debate rules (link	). You're invoking the fallacy of composition by assuming that something is true of the whole because it's true for part of the whole.*
Lightsaber Dueling Pack: The paragraph focuses on how "in spite of his handicaps, Vader thrived" and that "he even found a way to turn the suit to his advantage by becoming a figure out of nightmares," concluding that "from the ashes of death, Vader emerged even stronger." Without a single mention of the Force, but rather emphasis on how Vader's injuries worked out for the best, it's baseless to conclude the quote is explicitly referring to Force power,
This is the only fair point you've made so far. Credit where credit is due.
The text literally says "the power of his former apprentice." You've failed to provide any rationale as to why that's supposedly nonsensical.* Personally I don't see anything weird about it.
The definition of "matured" is usually having become more or fully developed (link	), so Vader's powers having "matured" is the same as saying Vader's powers have advanced. If that doesn't refer to power, it's an awfully bizarre way of saying he is more emotionally stable.
Fightsaber: It's not clear if the "at the height of his powers" quote is also encompassing pre-suited Vader, as the quote seems to specifically be in reference to the advancements Vader made between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back, and it's unlikely a 2002 source would make sweeping declarations about the strength of an unknown character (i.e. pre-suit Vader).
Once again, quotes have no expiration date, and you can't appeal to what the author intent was at the time. Vader and Anakin are the same person, so if Vader is "at the height of his powers" during The Empire Strikes Back, that encompasses his time in Revenge of the Sith.
Even if not, like with Lightsaber Dueling Pack, by no means does Lucas' quote have to be consistent with Fightsaber, so it's plausible it's simply a direct retcon (which isn't a first for Fightsaber).
All Lucas is saying is that Vader, like Maul and Dooku, isn't "as strong as the Emperor." He isn't comparing their power to one another whatsoever. No retcons here.
Note, though, that the same line as "at the height of his powers" also states "Skywalker is able to hold up against Vader." Thus, per Fightsaber, Luke's at least comparable to Vader as of The Empire Strikes Back, so a far more powerful Luke should definitely be in Vader's league by Return of the Jedi. This goes back to my central point of this entire debate: Vader cannot be comparably powerful to the Emperor when he's already on par with the far-less-powerful Luke.
Yes, Luke "is able to hold up against" Darth Vader "at the height of his powers" while Vader is toying with him (link	) - there is no actual relativity between an all-out Vader and Luke as of The Empire Strikes Back. If you're gonna use a retcon as an argument, then so can I.
The intensity of Vader's attack increasing doesn't mean he wasn't psychologically unbalanced; it actually bolsters the idea, because Galen is pricking at his one sore spot - family - which, despite making him angrier, still hindered him in his final duel with Luke Skywalker (link	): the circumstances are practically identical. Your theory about HK-47's comments referring exclusively to Jedi is not only false but also misinformed as he wasn't even talking about anger or rage but making one "doubt himself, his beliefs, or his intentions."
If a Force user can apply their power in a feat, then that is applicable power and not dependent on their Force potential. I've never seen any basis for your groundless fan theory in the lore whatsoever. It's a non sequitur anyway*: "in feats that require continuous exertion, Anakin (and Marek) can immerse themselves into their unprecedented Force reserves to outlast and outperform almost anyone" doesn't follow from "Anakin held back a theta storm despite Obi-Wan noting even Yoda likely couldn't do that." Why couldn't Obi-Wan simply have been underestimating Yoda? You need more than one premise to support your conclusion.
Lightsaber cuts cause smoke too (link	), and since Vader wanted to test whether the Dark Apprentice was freed of his memories, why would he pit him up against the other clones who weren't part of the original Galen Marek's life? Darth Vader himself was, though, more than anyone else. They dueled to test the Dark Apprentice's loyalty, whether he'd keep attacking his Master even if he commanded him to stop (like the previous clone did (link	)), which explains why they cease fighting. And no, this doesn't debunk my original argument because if the Dark Apprentice could have crushed Vader instantly, there wouldn't have been any struggle and the Dark Apprentice wouldn't have been wounded. They sparred for some time, but Vader brought it to a close in mid-way through to test the Dark Apprentice - that's the most likely interpretation.
By "Galen's clones" I obviously meant the Dark Apprentice and the protagonist of The Force Unleashed II…
Anyway, Starkiller believes the clones which he obliterates could have easily beaten Darth Vader, but he only has experience against Vader from the first game. The Dark Lord tooling Starkiller in The Force Unleashed II, however, demonstrates that TFU II Vader >>> Starkiller >>>> the imperfect clones collectively >> TFU I Vader, which is what I said in my third post: "The fact that he can go from being significantly less powerful than TFU Palpatine to being significantly more powerful than TFU Palpatine in just one year (link) proves Darth Vader does grow in lockstep with the Emperor. His annual growth rate would thus be humongous and essentially render everything prior to Return of the Jedi as low showings for him."
You're completely neglecting the other versions of the event. In the video games, Starkiller "continually attacks Vader in a frenzied state" and the only words he speaks to him are death threats. Almost throughout the whole ordeal, Starkiller is literally glowing blue and sparkling with electricity, which is the signal of Force fury in the game, granting "infinite Force energy" and "augmenting" his Force powers (link	). The Prima Official Game Guide also notes Starkiller uses Force rage right before Vader ragdolls him for over 20 seconds in the Wii version (link	).
The Prima Official Game Guide for the game notes Vader is a lesser lightsaber duelist than a Force user, and we have multiple instances of Vader ragdolling someone he struggled with in a duel (link	). Him doing that to Starkiller when he wasn't just stalemating him in sabers, but winning, is 100% an indication of vast superiority.
Are we reading the same book? Luke "not battling to the fullest" obviously refers to him retreating and stating he would not fight Vader, as contrasted with his earlier fury-driven assault during which his power was increased dramatically (link	).* I have no idea what you're trying to prove with the quote from The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader as Luke was still fueled by hate there as per Anakin Skywalker: The Story of Darth Vader.
I've tried to reconcile these sources with the rest of the lore to the best of my ability but if you don't buy my explanations, that's not really my problem. These sources are retconned by Vader tanking the Emperor's full potency as opposed to Luke's failure anyway, so you win nothing.
Those sources are obviously in reference to Luke's strength of character, as that's what's important in resisting "the temptations offered to him by the dark side," not power in the Force.
It's vague in that "All that denotes is that the gap isn't miniscule but that's it. It doesn't establish Vader would get ragdolled, one-shot, or anything" as stated in my third post.
Vader witnessing Luke's strength first-hand means nothing. His designs on Luke didn't change at all from what they were in The Empire Strikes Back: "Luke, you do not yet realize your importance. You have only begun to discover your power. Join me, and I will complete your training. With our combined strength, we can end this destructive conflict, and bring order to the galaxy. [...] Luke, you can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny. Join me, and together we rule the galaxy as Father and Son." / "Vader was impressed with Luke's speed. Pleased, even. It was a pity, almost, he couldn't let the boy kill the Emperor yet. Luke wasn't ready for that, emotionally. There was still a chance Luke would return to his friends if he destroyed the Emperor now. He needed more extensive tutelage, first - training by both Vader and Palpatine - before he'd be ready to assume his place at Vader's right hand, ruling the galaxy." If he truly believed the Emperor to be "omniscient" he would have thought his Master would have sensed his rebellious intentions when he is thinking them aloud right next to him. Instead he is perfectly comfortable plotting a coup without fear of being killed by the Emperor.
The quote literally reads "Bad enough that Vader was as powerful as he was"; Vader's a threat because of his power in the Force - which is also the context of the whole paragraph as I've shown in my second post - not because of his proclivity to rebel. Even the very next clause is "Palpatine was certain of his loyalty to the dark side"; indeed, the Emperor wasn't expecting Vader's betrayal at all (link	).
If the Emperor wanted someone more powerful than himself as an apprentice, it has everything to do with what you quoted, since the primary qualification for apprenticeship is Force potential eclipsing his own; Vader lacking that obviously considerably diminishes his value in the Emperor's eyes, but it doesn't mean he can't come close to him in power. And contrary to your beliefs, the Emperor viewed many Force wielders as powerful enough to challenge him one day: Darth Maul, Asajj Ventress, Galen Marek, Gethzerion, Jerec, etc. (link	), and none of them came from particularly potent bloodlines. Given that, the Emperor definitely wouldn't scoff at the idea of hidden talent existing somewhere in the midst of his lesser servants.
If it's "odd" to use the literal dictionary definition of "solely" (link	) i.e. appealing to the English language in your opinion, that's not my problem. You seemed to make to liberal use of the same tactic in your Ziost argument, though, so it's ironic you'd disparage me for doing the same.
How are they not mutually exclusive? You don't actually explain that; you just repeat the fallacy of false equivalency over and over by citing examples which don't match Vader's situation.* His body isn't just injured here; it's "weakened" which is distinct because the Force is also a large factor in determining Vader's physical prowess. As articulated above: "since the only thing required in killing the Emperor is hurling him down the shaft, which is a physical activity, the feat was solely accomplished through physical augmentation, meaning physical augmentation functions as a measuring stick for Vader's Force power in that situation. Ergo, as Vader was physically weaker than usual, he was less powerful in the Force than normal." Just because Maul got and Kit Fisto would get stronger than usual doesn't mean Vader did since the types of amps you describe are completely different in origin: love, rage, and generic empowerment. You baselessly assume the first must somehow be comparable to the latter two.**
The armor is retrofitted with insulation but it's still vulnerable to lightning, which is the reason he took as much damage as he did (link	); it wasn't even his weaker Force abilities relative to the Emperor that caused his death. Ergo, if he didn't have a vulnerability to lightning, he wouldn't have died despite being weakened. This showing is looking increasingly better for Vader, not worse lol. For quantification, it's simple: he's outside the Emperor's one-shot range.
IV. THE NOT-SO-PRODIGAL KNIGHT
A) SCALING
Revan in Shadow of Revan isn't more powerful than his reborn self at all. Spirit Revan states "You think you're stronger this way, but you're not," clearly referring to his Force power, not wisdom or self-control. Even though many characters sensed a disturbance in the Force growing in tandem with Revan's re-emergence, it was likely his crusade to exterminate the Shit Emperor and forging of a new galactic superpower causing it in the vein of Savage Opress' quest rather than his personal Force strength: "Both Jedi and Sith sense dark stirrings in the Force. Ripples in its energy are being created by Savage Opress's quest to find his lost brother - who is none other than the Sith warrior Darth Maul." When Maul was revived, he was merely "restored to his former power" and "only had his former strength by Revenge"* despite making "him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power." With counterexamples nullifying all the arguments for Revan's strength increasing after the novel, it's clear he was not more powerful in Shadow of Revan.
B) DURABILITY AND ENERGY ATTACK
Let's now take a look at what it actually took to revive Vitiate's spirit. On Yavin IV "he did gain power" by feeding on "the scores of dead," merely on the scale of "thousands," which "nourished" him without any rituals (link	). On Ziost he "merely siphoned death from a single city," with "every death seemingly extending his dark power," "his power growing with every death," growing "more powerful by the hour" (link	). The fact that Revan believed reawakening Vitiate required a ritual indicates he doesn't even think draining thousands in a city-wide area is possible; he's in arrant disbelief when he returns without one (link	).
And all this hocus-pocus of "fiddling with linking incorporeal spirits" and whatnot is completely baseless.* The Temple of Sacrifice is "attuned directly to" Vitiate's will and isn't "designed to restore specific spirits to their physical forms" but "designed to eradicate all living things on the moon" and "feed power to the Sith Emperor through offerings of the living" (link	); any deaths caused by the Temple would automatically fuel Vitiate without any additional "fiddling with linking incorporeal spirits" or whatever. If Revan could simply have killed the entire world by clapping his hands he would have, because the only purpose of the Temple - and the only thing Vitiate needs to be revivified - is causing death and feeding on it.
Even were auxiliary wizardry required on Revan's part, it still doesn't excuse the fact that that is evidently not what he was doing with the Temple. It's "a device for mass ritual sacrifice" "capable of killing every living thing on this moon, as fuel for the Emperor's resurrection." Revan's attack that backlashed merely encompassed one kilometer, not the entire world, indicating he wasn't using the Temple at all - and nowhere in the game is he actually stated to be doing that. He merely "created a Force resonance with The Machine's core, and is channelling its power into an immense attack" (link	). He was channelling the power through his own body, not through the Temple, so in other words, it's not in any way different from a conventional energy attack like Force lightning - except of course for the fact that Revan had to:
Amplify himself with the dark side nexus of Yavin IV.
Draw on the Force resonance of the Machine Core to amplify himself even further.
Charge the attack for 125 seconds before it was potent enough to ravage life in a 1 km radius (link	).
Since "Attacks unleashed in combat reflect the energies an individual can summon at a moment's notice," Revan "charging up his power hundreds of times longer than normal places him at an utterly unnatural level of power" on top of his already double-amped state according to the same logic you use to argue against Vader - yet all he can do is unleash a 1 km blast. Therefore the Ziost feat would be so far beyond combative Revan's power it's farcical. In this debate, Revan doesn't get any amps, nor can he afford to charge his power for over two minutes, much less for however long it would take to devastate a planet, so his damage output here is a mere fraction of even the 1 km blast.
C) WILLPOWER
If the Shadow of Revan launch trailer is valid you have no basis to assume the strike team was relentlessly hammering at Revan when he was downed from the backlash.* The trailer shows there can be portions in the fight where only a single person is attacking Revan at a time, so it's not a stretch to think a three-second-long break could occur (you yourself emphasize the transience of the duration), especially when the strike team members' actions are at the whims of the players and not any scripted sequence.
Revan's resurrection aboard the Foundry wasn't accomplished through his own power either. After expunging his light side from his being, he became a typical dark side spirit. Dark side spirits need an anchor to subsist in the physical realm without deliquescing into the void - this can be either a dark side nexus or a small item imbued with the dark side (link	). Revan in this case had both: all Rakatan technology is powered by and enveloped in dark side energies, and the Foundry is compared to and listed alongside the Star Forge - a nexus that dwarfs even the likes of Korriban - as one of their most notable creations (link	); his mask and robes are also focal points of dark power, with the latter even amplifying the user's inherent dark side energies (link	). Therefore Revan must have latched his spirit onto his robes and mask like Darth Nihilus as well as the residual dark energies of the Foundry to prevent dissipation in the void, and re-inhabited his body sometime afterwards. Your comparison to Emperor Palpatine is a false equivalency as the Emperor did not have an anchor for most of his voyage across space and had to subsist "through sheer will."* Revan simply piggybacked off of a dark side nexus like all common Sith spirits without having to exert his willpower much at all. He himself conceded that rejecting his light side "was the only way to go on--to remain," and if he united with it again, he would "fade" and "become diminished," because as a neutral spirit he would not be amped by the dark side energies or latch his spirit onto them (link	). You omitted all of this from your description of the feat.**
**OUT OF CONTEXT COUNTER: 2
Addendum: yes, Duron Qel-Droma claimed Revan would use the Qel-Droma robes when he defeated Darth Malak (link	). However, Duron's vision was erroneous, as it showed Revan wearing his mask which we know he did not reacquire until five years after the end of Knights of the Old Republic, and thus should not be assumed to be infallible. It is likely he also erred on account of the Qel-Droma robes, as Revan is depicted wearing his own robes that are markedly different in the cover art of his book and the game (link	). The best reconciliation is that Revan likely wore the Qel-Droma robes up until recreating his old ones aboard the Star Forge, which he donned ever after.
D) PERFORMANCE AGAINST AN EMPEROR
Even though Revan started out as a peer of the Shit Emperor in The Old Republic: Revan, the latter's power growth as a result of draining Revan for three centuries left an extremely wide chasm between the two. Revan mentally resisting the Shit Emperor for that time doesn't translate to parity because of the latter's ineptitude with telepathy, and in Revan's own words, the key to perseverance lies in a special technique that allows even beings of exorbitantly lesser strength and will to resist the Shit Emperor's telepathy (link	). And finally, the Exile refreshed Revan every time his power faltered: once the gap was wide enough, it's possible the Shit Emperor could have been powerful enough to break Revan virtually effortlessly but, in video game terms, could never get him fully down to zero health because he was getting restored to 100% every time he hit 1% (link	). And no matter how strong, even the Shit Emperor can't keep up his attempts forever, so eventually he would tire out, be forced to give up and try again later.
I'm not necessarily claiming the Shit Emperor would have at any point actually been as powerful as described above; I'm merely addressing your scenario where the Shit Emperor's "powers far surpassed and completely overpowered Revan's." Although that is likely considering that, as proven in the previous section, Revan did not believe draining thousands in a city-wide area was possible, insinuating the feat is beyond him. And so Vitiate's accomplishment in Shadow of Revan puts him above the titular character even when he's weaker than his vanilla The Old Republic self (link	); Spirit Revan concurs when he states Dark Revan is "too weak" and "won't last" against Vitiate (link	). According to yourself, Revan exerting his will continuously would in fact make him stronger, not weaker, and he keeps his body from falling apart through sheer willpower, so we can conclude he is exerting his will throughout the fight without pause and was at full strength when Spirit Revan deemed him "too weak" to win against a heavily diminished Vitiate. To substantiate this, right before Vitiate appears, Dark Revan confidently declares he will not stop in his pursuit of his enemy's resuscitation, deeming a confrontation a necessity. Only once Vitiate appears and demonstrates his power that Dark Revan falls to his knees in distress and deem what he just saw "impossible" and that he has "failed" (link	) Even if you do manage to explain why Dark Revan would be weakened, you'd have to do backtracking and concede Revan's willpower can't last for 300 years if it dries over the course of one fight, meaning he would not get stronger from continuously exerting his will and thus cannot have parity with the Shit Emperor as of vanilla The Old Republic. So regardless, there is no way the Ziost scaling holds true for Revan.
And regarding the Ziost feat itself, you yourself put forth the idea that the Shit Emperor assimilated the Nathema nexus into his being permanently, and based on the fact that the nexus only returned after his final death (link	), Vitiate retained the nexus within him during the entire Ziost incident, so the Ziost amp would be stacked on top of the Nathema nexus, destroying your whole argument. Medriaas being "the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see" is not even a fact according to your own stance on in-universe sources, and the historians wouldn't even have a way to ascertain how strong the nexus was before its consumption, so it is more likely that "large" in this instance refers to the geographical size of the nexus since the historians believe it devoured the biosphere of an entire planet (which in itself is an erroneous claim, since we know it was Zildrog who ate Medriaas, not the dark side nexus (link	)), necessitating it being quite sizeable. All in all, you have zero proof that physical Vitiate would be more powerful than a nexus-amped spirit Vitiate.
E) TELEKINESIS
After he cows Revan into admitting failure by demonstrating his power on Yavin IV, Vitiate travels to Ziost and grows "more powerful by the hour," "every death seemingly extending his dark power" once he starts feeding there, widening the gap between him and Revan even further. Yet the Hero of Tython defeats him in one-on-one combat (link	). Note how Vitiate had "limited his involvement to the area around New Adasta" and his puppets had all been knocked out by Theron's scheme, stopping his possession (link	). Thus, Vitiate wasn't multitasking and was channelling his full might against the Hero - and lost. This is further corroborated by the website which states the only Hero has "the strength to stand against" Vitiate (link	). Lord Scourge's vision also showed the Hero holding the Shit Emperor's power in his hands, which clearly cannot refer to Knights of the Eternal Throne as Scourge has no idea who Failkorion is and he vehemently believes the Shit Emperor is dead after Act III (link	), so it's likely the Hero of Tython as of Act III is as powerful as the Shit Emperor in the vanilla game, which puts him exorbitantly beyond Revan as established in the previous section. The Outlander has also been labelled Failkorion's "most powerful opponent" as early as Chapter 1 of Knights of the Fallen Empire (link	). All in all, we have enough evidence by way of both feats and accolades to conclude the Outlander Revan's canonical superior. The only reason Revan was able to contend in Shadow of Revan was because he was amplified - and the Hero weakened - by an obscenely strong dark side nexus.
When the Outlander is thawed out five years after Chapter 1, he find himself the vast inferior of both Vaylin and Arcann. Failkorion states that ragdolling is only a fraction of the siblings' power, and that alone the Outlander cannot hope to triumph against them (link	). This would mean Vaylin is effortlessly capable of ragdolling the Outlander, and Revan even more easily. Yet she struggles to a power generator apart, denoting her abilities were being pushed to their limit by this feat even while amped by a nexus (link	). Revan thus canonically caps out hilariously beneath the showing.
V. THE CHOSEN ONE
Darth Vader being only on the level of Darths Tyranus and Maul would still leave him far better off than Revan. As you know, after Dooku left the Jedi Order and joined the Sith, his Force abilities underwent a drastic increase, but the true extent of his newfound strength has been vastly underestimated.
Take a careful look at the wording of the quote. It says "an attack," singular, meaning you have to be a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda to survive Dooku's Force attack. Therefore, if you're not as powerful as Yoda, you will not survive even a single Force attack from Dooku. Yoda is the most powerful Jedi around as of Attack of the Clones (link	), so this means that per this quote, Dooku can one-shot any other Jedi sans Yoda with either telekinesis or lightning, including Mace Windu as of Attack of the Clones.
Mace Windu as of The Phantom Menace is stated to be the most powerful Jedi Master, aside from Yoda, who had ever walked the halls of the Jedi Temple. This statement was re-published in the relaunched Fact File in 2013, so it absolutely includes Revan, as he is a Jedi Master whom we saw walking through the corridors of the Jedi Temple in The Old Republic: Revan, and continued to be a Jedi Master after getting his mask back, all throughout his mental war against the Shit Emperor, and even during the battle of the Foundry (link	). The Jedi Temple also remained the same building despite being destroyed and rebuilt during and after the Sacking of Coruscant (link	), so the dilemma of Theseus' ship has already been answered by canon.
Darth Vader (link	) > Darth Tyranus >>>> TPM Mace > Revan Reborn. Of course, I think Vader is still a lot more powerful but this is going by your interpretation of Lucas' quote to demonstrate that even if I conceded every point, Revan's still just factually below Vader as I stated at the end of my third post. None of Revan's accomplishments matter because Vader is on the level of someone who can one-shot someone more powerful than him, no matter what feats you present for the guy. Even if you managed to convince me that SoR Revan is more powerful than Revan Reborn, you'd still need to establish more than a one-shot tier difference between them for the former to even be Vader's equal, and an even larger gap for him to be superior. All in all, it's just far more likely Darth Vader is much more powerful than Revan.
My arguments for suit Darth Vader > pre-suit Vader/Anakin Skywalker still stand too. In addition to the six quotes I already had, I've uncovered two more. The former states Vader exhibits "more deadly invincibility than ever" in the context of strength and skill in combat. And with the latter source, we again have seven statements saying Vader is more powerful than Anakin. Just think of that number: how many sources have so consistently and so often all repeated the exact same thing about two characters' power level in relation to one another? RotJ Vader >> ANH Vader > Anakin Skywalker (> RotS Sidious >>>...>>> The Shit Emperor >>> SoR Revan) is inarguably one of the most ratified stances in the mythos.
The mere thought of Juno Eclipse is enough to restore Starkiller to peak capacity even after being deprived of sustenance for 13 days straight and being on the brink of death (link	). Throughout the story, Starkiller performs infinitely more taxing stunts than surviving in a pit for 13 days, so we can infer the thought of Juno kept him strong for his whole quest and refreshed him every time he exerted himself to his limits. During his duel with Darth Vader, "knowing Juno was close, he fought his former Master with single-minded focus," meaning his prior exhaustion would be gone and he was operating at peak performance level against Vader. Despite this, he could not pierce Vader's guard with his lightsaber and was about to get killed, only managing to score a hit because he exploited a weakness in Vader's suit that immobilized him; it is not indicative of greater skill or power (link	).
During the interlude in the fight, Darth Vader seemingly tosses Juno Eclipse to her death. This sends Starkiller into Force rage, which erased any possible feelings of enervation he might have had and amplified his abilities further, as he has a history of doing so when Juno is threatened and the text notes he was "howling with rage." Mere seconds after, however, Vader tosses Starkiller aside with telekinesis "like a rag doll," demonstrating he was "too powerful" for Starkiller. Starkiller's Force fury continues for most parts of the fight, yet Vader's "knowledge of the dark side is enough to render most of [his] Force attacks useless." And even when his Force rage abates, he is able to re-enter it. But as soon as he does that, Vader once again dominates him telekinetically seconds after and he is unable to break free for over 20 seconds.
All in all, Starkiller concedes he cannot defeat Darth Vader and throws the fight, so that Vader might be lured into a false sense of security (link	). Once Vader is off-guard, Starkiller blasts him with a continuous surge of lightning in arrant rage for 30 seconds, yet even then is unable to inflict mortal injury on Vader. Sam Witwer, who you use as a legitimate source, clarifies that even then, Vader threw the fight and had been toying with Starkiller the whole time (link	). Do note, however, that my argument functions perfectly fine without Witwer as well.
Starkiller's lightning is potent enough to split an Imperial Star Destroyer in half only after six seconds of charging (link	). An ISD is 1 600 meters long from stem to stern, and as seen from the video, the diameter of the resultant explosion is almost as wide, and the shockwave extends far past the length of the ISD. Given the shockwave had enough kinetic energy to push the remnants of the ISD, a million tons of durasteel (link	), over a hundred meters in only three seconds, it would have utterly annihilated all life caught in it. So already we have a comparison: a massively amped Revan is only able to damage life within 1 km after charging his attack for 125 seconds versus Starkiller, who is able to pulverize all life within 2+ km after charging his attack for 6 seconds. Words fail me. The difference in power is hilarious. Darth Vader tanking Starkiller lightning for 30 seconds compared to Revan being totally incapacitated by his incomplete blast puts half a dozen one-shot-ranges between them.
The above gif is the visualization of the disintegration of the Salvation described in the novelization, except in the Wii version, Starkiller pushes outward with his power from within the vessel rather than atomizing the frigate beneath him, and the resulting conflagration can clearly be seen to be taller and wider than even the tallest Kaminoan spires are tall: several kilometers, since they're also as tall as the wroshyr trees on Kashyyyk (link	). And no, the explosion wasn't caused by the Salvation: we see that the explosion resulting from the ship blowing up on its own is barely wider than the ship itself, 72 meters (link	), so the explosion depicted in the Wii version must have been the result of Starkiller's own power. Just supporting evidence of Starkiller being able to muster multi-kilometer-razing attacks in combat. RotJ Vader >>>> TFU II Vader >>> Starkiller >>>...>>> SoR Revan.
Your entire Machine Core backlash argument is a red herring.* It makes no difference whether Revan can tank lightsaber hits with his will because he was still downed by the backlashing energies, meaning his willpower was approaching its limits. Darth Vader's innards being exposed to Starkiller and the Emperor's destructive energies for a lengthy period without disintegrating speaks of much higher willpower on his part than Revan's. All you're doing by arguing Revan is able to tank lightsaber hits with his will is endorsing the notion that Darth Vader can too.
His self-revival also portrays his willpower to be greater than Revan's. Vader had no dark side nexus or paraphernalia to bind his spirit onto, meaning he would have had to pull himself back "through sheer will" like his Master. Your attempt to lowball this feat makes no sense as no one speaks metaphorically about waking up. You have no idea what happened in the interim between Vader being knocked unconscious and him coming to. If Lady Saro foresaw Vader's death and self-resurrection, I'm pretty sure Garoche Tarkin's statement is literal. Saro not wanting Vader killed again doesn't contradict that; her reasoning is literally conveyed in the very sentence you're citing: "And she won't let me kill you as long as she thinks you can still be turned to our cause." Killing someone - even if they can will themselves back to life - would be a pretty horrible recruitment method at least as far as that person's trust and loyalty is concerned.
And unlike you claim, Vader's chest panel is in fact critical to his respiratory systems since his breathing stops if it is disabled. Damaging it would also presumably cause the same to happen, which explains why he geared his entire fighting style towards protecting it (link	). This validates my argument regarding Vader's feat in Darth Vader and the Lost Command that I discussed in my second post, but also recontextualizes his fight with Starkiller, since he has to sustain himself through sheer will if his life support is compromised. In the novel and comic, Juno does just that, so for the entire rest of the fight he would have had to divert a part of his focus into willing himself to staying alive while fighting Starkiller (link	). Vader is able to dominate Starkiller in the games, and in the media where he doesn't, he has a hinderance preventing him from going all out. Seems pretty clear-cut to me.
In Darth Bane: Path of Destruction, the titular character convinces the Brotherhood of Darkness to concoct a ritual in which all the participants would channel their power through a single vessel, Bane himself (link	), which he unleashed in a firestorm that ravaged the surface of Ruusan, killing most of the thousands of Jedi and Sith on the planet, and would have killed the whole world if not for Lord Kaan's interruption (link	). There are many instances in the lore where too much power within a Force user severely damages or kills them (link	), yet this was not the case with Bane. His Force potential was immense enough that his midi-chlorians were able to contain the power to raze an entire planet. Note that I am not arguing Bane himself can replicate this feat, merely that at his full potential such destruction is possible.
Darth Bane's Rule of Two created more powerful Sith Lords with each generation (link	). In order for this to be possible, the Force potential of each successive Sith Lord would have to eclipse their Master's because they have to either grow fast enough to catch up to and surpass their Master while the latter is growing alongside them simultaneously, or because the Master has already attained their full potential and thus only someone of greater potential would have a shot at defeating them, as we do know each Sith prior to Darth Plagueis killed their Master in fair combat when inheriting the leadership of the order (link	).
Darth Sidious, the most powerful of Bane's lineage, attained his full potential upon killing his Master, as indicated by the fact that his mortal vessel almost burst from the power contained within, and he feared his individuality might be completely subsumed into that power (link	). Further, during his fight with Mace Windu, Sidious channeled such intense power through his Force lightning that it ravaged his mortal frame due to his midi-chlorians being unable to contain that much Force energy (link	). His biological Force potential had reached its limit, and so he turned his gaze toward the discorporate and was over time becoming less and less constrained by his physical body (link	). Luke even noted that the Emperor was "more energy than flesh" even before Dark Empire, and we see this in his fight with Galen Marek, where the latter was able to rival him in a conventional Force lightning battle and cause damage, yet when the Emperor drew on deeper reserves of power, he was able to tank an attack that ripped Marek's body apart and sent his cells into shock, denoting he had surpassed Marek's conventional Force potential and thus his own as well (link	).
Darth Vader's potential - even after being wounded - was great enough for the Emperor to deem that "Vader's real weaknesses were psychological rather than physical" and that reawakening "the incredible power within him" would be perilous, and that he would one day become "a risk to [Sidious'] mastery." Even long before A New Hope, the Emperor mused Vader being "as strong as he was" in the dark side was "bad enough." Vader's equality and later meliority to Galen Marek who rivaled the Emperor's physical potential, as gleaned from his demonstrated superiority to the Starkiller clone and the Dark Apprentice, corroborates the notion of him being above RotS Sidious even before A New Hope, and by the time of A New Hope, he had also surpassed his pre-suit self as stated in many, many sources, further cementing his RotS Sidious+ status. Vader then continued to grow even more powerful, becoming "far more formidable" in just three years, to the point that he was now "equally formidable" to the Emperor in The Empire Strikes Back. And in Return of the Jedi, we see a weakened Vader walk through the Emperor's full potency without even erecting an active Force defence, a feat which the Emperor posthumously credited to Vader's personal strength in the Force. It is also known he would have survived this ordeal had his suit not been especially vulnerable to electrical discharges; had it come down to sheer Force power, Vader would have endured.
At this point Vader makes the Ziost feat look like ass in comparison. Palpatine was already far beyond that level by virtue of reaching his full potential in The Phantom Menace, which is indescribably greater than Darth Bane's planet-killing potential due to Banite scaling, and Vader's actualized strength exceeds PT Sidious' by a wide margin. RotJ Palpatine > RotJ Vader >>>> RotS Palpatine >>>>>> ravaging a planet >>>...>>> 1 km blast >>>> Revan.
Darth Vader's initial parity with Galen Marek grants him all of the latter's feats up to that point like yanking an Imperial Star Destroyer out of the sky and more importantly powering up a cannon that tore a hole through another ISD and collapsed a superstructure larger than the Executor (link	). This feat was done mid-combat in a hurry as noted by Marek, making it combat-applicable, and as seen from his rancor feat, his telekinesis seems to be more potent than lightning, so Darth Vader can thus telekinetically disintegrate large portions of ISD's in combat as early as The Force Unleashed. In the sequel he has grown powerful enough to ragdoll the Starkiller clone who could pulverize a group of his other clones, collectively capable of easily beating him from the first game. Additionally, Starkiller has atomized a 300-meter-long frigate and split an ISD in half with lightning. All of them are therefore also added to Vader's arsenal.
All of the aforementioned feats are infinitely greater than Vaylin's power generator feat, and given she was not only amped but struggled with the feat, it caps her out far beneath Galen Marek and Starkiller. Revan being in her casual ragdoll range means Darth Vader would utterly obliterate him. RotJ Vader >>>> TFU II Vader >>> Starkiller >>>> Marek clones >> TFU I Vader >>> KotFE Vaylin >>>> Ch.1 Outlander >>> SoR Revan.
ANT'S FINAL TALLY
ARGUMENTS IGNORED / CONCESSIONS ACCEPTED:
In this post: 9
In the debate overall: 13
BASELESS BULLSHIT SPEWED:
LOGICAL FALLACIES COMMITTED:
In this post: 24
STATEMENTS QUOTED OUT OF CONTEXT:
In the debate overall: 7
Well, that was my last post. 48 700 / 48 800 characters. I'm done now. Ran out of space so unfortunately I couldn't address the Shadow Guard scaling, but I hope it turned out good regardless. A final, comprehensive summary of this debate will be posted in the finisher.
Post Four (1 of 4) by DarthAnt66
on July 18th 2019, 12:15 am
Here we go. Since Azronger doesn't have the opportunity to offer a full rebuttal, I decided to primarily solidify and expand on existing points rather than introduce wholly original arguments. Unfortunately, due to my 45,711 character limit, I had to remove about a quarter of my original post. I may release some of the some cut-content in independent blogs later this year. I didn't have the space to respond to absolutely everything said, but I ensured everything left unaddressed was both inconsequential to the greater discussion and adequately covered in my earlier posts. For example, Azronger's sections "D - Performance Against an Emperor" and "E - Telekinesis" were just summaries of existing arguments with little or no new substance.
Click the in-text citations marked in bold red to be redirected to a new page. The designation (5), for example, refers to the fifth quote posted on the new link. I provide the complete titles to all the abbreviated sources at the end. Note, though, that "SWTOR" refers to The Old Republic MMO video game, and "SOR" refers to its Shadow of Revan expansion pack. All Star Wars quotes or dictionary definitions are highlighted in dark blue, and all references to statements made by Azronger or I are highlighted in green. Since they are "response or sourcing quotes," I did not tally them into my final character count of 45,700	.
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
THE VITIATE ARGUMENT
"The Emperor had three hundred years to break this man, and he never succumbed?"
The Vitiate Argument, the central case of my first and third posts, holds that SOR Revan and SWTOR Vitiate are comparably powerful, as Revan and Vitiate were rough peers in the Revan novel, Revan resisted and remained in lock-step with Vitiate across their mental war, and SOR Revan has greater power, willpower, durability, and knowledge than before. Thus, SOR Revan should at least wield comparable power to a weakened Vitiate who consumed all life on, and affected the outer core, magnetic fields, and atmosphere of, Ziost.
The Exile refreshed Revan every time his power faltered: once the gap was wide enough, it's possible the Shit Emperor could have been powerful enough to break Revan virtually effortlessly but, in video game terms, could never get him fully down to zero health because he was getting restored to 100% every time he hit 1% (link)	.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5FmWobi2GI&t=0m31s
Meetra's energy "trickled through," or "flowed in a small stream" (link)	, to Revan—and so little that Revan didn't even notice it and fed off it subconsciously despite "his consciousness being fully aware" (1,2)	. A passive "trickle" wouldn't abruptly replenish Revan's power "to 100% every time he hit 1%" like you argue. Moreover, "Revan could feel the Emperor feeding on him" (R), meaning Vitiate's Force drain had a discernible effect compared to Meetra's imperceptible aid. So, going with your analogy, Meetra caused a steady, undetectable uptick in Revan's HP—counteracted by Vitiate's unrelenting, palpable downtick. It follows that the usage of "refreshing and restoring" in "As the Emperor fed off him, Meetra was allowing Revan to feed off her. Her sustenance strengthened his resolve whenever he grew weak, refreshing and restoring him so he could continue his never-ending mental war." (R) refers to the act of restoring some of the energy lost to Vitiate's drain—not restoring all of Revan's power. Consider the telepathic battles between Luke Skywalker versus UnuThul or Irek Ismaren, or Darth Wyyrlok III versus Darth Krayt or Darth Andeddu. Those were all direct clashes of will, and the fights ended within seconds or minutes. Revan "set his will against" (3)	Vitiate for three centuries without faltering, yet you're telling me that's all for naught because of a factor so insignificant Revan never realized it. Yeah, right.
And no matter how strong, even the Shit Emperor can't keep up his attempts forever, so eventually he would tire out, be forced to give up and try again later.
Except Vitiate actively drained Revan and had the Dread Masters to reinforce his attacks, so there's no reason Vitiate tired nor reason Revan found reprieve. Plus, mere exposure to Vitiate's mind "for less than a second" sent Scourge collapsing to the floor: "The touch lasted less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation." (R) Revan was "linked to the Emperor's mind" (link)	, meaning he felt that for 161,884,800+ minutes straight.
It doesn't have to be a rebuttal if you don't even make an argument: "Only once Revan's power finally waned at the end of the Cold War, three-hundred and seven years after the mental war began, does Meetra worry Vitiate will soon overwhelm him [...] Vitiate's inability to overpower Revan's defenses for three-hundred years indicates a direct correlation between mental fortitude and Force strength. When Revan was close to or at full strength, Vitiate was unable to dominate him; He only begins to succeed as Revan's Force power begins to diminish." How does that explain how the two notions aren't mutually exclusive?
Even though Revan started out as a peer of the Shit Emperor in The Old Republic: Revan the latter's power growth as a result of draining Revan for three centuries left an extremely wide chasm between the two.
Perhaps Revan's power only waned at the end because Vitiate ramped up his Force drain? In fact, that has to be true even from your point-of-view given, if Meetra forever renewed Revan's power, Vitiate must have increased his drain to the point it overshadowed Meetra's. That doesn't change that if Vitiate grew stronger across the mental war like you claim, then Revan had to of grown stronger too. "Otherwise, the power discrepancy between an equalized Revan and strengthening Vitiate would constantly expand until Vitiate's powers overpowered Revan's."
Revan mentally resisting the Shit Emperor for that time doesn't translate to parity because of the latter's ineptitude with telepathy
Essence transfer is "nearly impossible" (DES) because you need to annihilate the host's biologically anchored spirit. That's what Valkorion almost did via "hollowing out" the Outlander: "He thinks you're dead, but you survived by assuming his form" (link)	. That's different from telepathic (TP) domination, which is breaking one's mind—not erasing one's spirit. Note Valkorion TP dominated unchained Vaylin's mind with a gesture (link)	and rendered her unable to resist (link)	, showing he's not biologically inept with TP at all.
Also, Revan clearly thought resisting Vitiate was far harder than resisting the Dread, despite the latter's insane TP (which I cover later), only bothering to mention them once compared to constant references of withstanding Vitiate: "The Emperor couldn't break me." / "I have set my will against this creature for centuries!" / "I've struggled for centuries to preserve the galaxy. To protect future generations from the most destructive evil that's ever existed." / "I spent three hundred years in lock step with the Emperor's mind." (SOR) / "I paid the price as the Emperor ravaged my mind over centuries, but I gave him nothing." (SWTOR)
You have no argument.
And in Revan's own words, the key to perseverance lies in a special technique that allows even beings of exorbitantly lesser strength and will to resist the Shit Emperor's telepathy (link)	.
Revan just said he'd teach them how to shield their minds. That's, you know, how anyone defends against TP. Clearly he didn't teach them some special technique given a far more powerful Scourge still couldn't resist a super weakened Vitiate—"I will fly us to the Emperor's temple, but you must face him alone. No one else can resist his direct influence" (link)	—and Revan shared "everything" (link)	he knew about Vitiate with the Council yet Vitiate still causally shattered the Jedi strike team's minds (link)	mid-fight (link)	.
When Maul was revived, he was merely "restored to his former power" and "only had his former strength by Revenge"* despite making "him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power." With counterexamples nullifying all the arguments for Revan's strength increasing after the novel, it's clear he was not more powerful in Shadow of Revan.
Yes, I already said that in my second post: "Even though Maul only had his former strength by Revenge, his overall connection to the Force still deepend through his near-death ordeal, making him a more worthy dark side vessel." I always argued it would take time for Revan to actualize his newfound power, hence why he recovered for six years before he reemerged.
Also, you never addressed that both Krayt and Revan returned from the dead, and both described an increase in power by doing so. Revan's "I've been reborn. My mind is clearer, my power intensified" (link)	is even almost a line-by-line match with Krayt's "I have been through death and conquered it. I have returned with my power multiplied" (link)	. And that makes sense. Force users experiencing and conquering death itself should gain a greater understanding of and connection to the Force. Hence Krayt's "Death is not an ending, but it is a passageway to something greater" (link)	.
Revan in Shadow of Revan isn't more powerful than his reborn self at all. Spirit Revan states "You think you're stronger this way, but you're not," clearly referring to his Force power, not wisdom or self-control.
You already used this argument in your second post (link)	. Refer to my rebuttal in my second post (link)	. You never responded to my rebuttal, and the only difference between this argument and your last is your addendum that it's now "clearly referring to Force power."
And regarding the Ziost feat itself, you yourself put forth the idea that the Shit Emperor assimilated the Nathema nexus into his being permanently, and based on the fact that the nexus only returned after his final death (link), Vitiate retained the nexus within him during the entire Ziost incident, so the Ziost amp would be stacked on top of the Nathema nexus, destroying your whole argument.
Drain has never functioned this way—ever. There is no example of drained energy returning to its original source when the drainer dies, e.g. Kreia and Vrook Lamar. A more plausible explanation is that, when Valkorion died, the Void and its properties vanished, allowing the system's Force energy to permeate the planet and foster life. Vitiate's spirit was on "the brink of oblivion" (link)	on Yavin IV, so he clearly lost the Nathema ritual's raw energy.
Medriaas being "the largest dark side nexus the galaxy would ever see" is not even a fact according to your own stance on in-universe sources, and the historians wouldn't even have a way to ascertain how strong the nexus was before its consumption, so it is more likely that "large" in this instance refers to the geographical size of the nexus since the historians believe it devoured the biosphere of an entire planet (which in itself is an erroneous claim, since we know it was Zildrog who ate Medriaas, not the dark side nexus (link)	), necessitating it being quite sizeable. All in all, you have zero proof that physical Vitiate would be more powerful than a nexus-amped spirit Vitiate.
My stance was that in-universe sources contingent on the explicitly limited knowledge of historians shouldn't be peddled as binding (link)	. However, a source can be both in-universe and omniscient, such as The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia: "The in-fantasy conceit of this one is that it has been compiled by some omniscient committee of historians and scholars taking a look back over tens of thousands of years of galactic history. The author/editor is solely responsible for any errors of fact or interpretation." It's clear The Old Republic Encyclopedia works the same way. (And that's not rare. Any source that writes "X happened Y years ago" is in-universe.) No mortal being or group could simultaneously know the activities of Sith spirits like Kallig, the inner workings of Republic and Imperial Intelligence and the Emperor's Hand, and the origin stories of Vette and Mako all by 3641 BBY. And as for your "geographical size" argument, all planetary nexuses encompass a biosphere—that's why they're called planetary nexuses. (Lmao.) You have nothing on my argument that the Nathema nexus was greater than the Ziost nexus and, consequently, nothing on my argument that Vitiate was weakened on Ziost.
Ah, and to beat a dead horse, it's even stated that Vitiate wasn't "revitalized" until "after" he obliterated Ziost: "Meanwhile, an older threat still looms: the former Sith Emperor, revitalized after annihilating all life on the planet Ziost, has similarly vanished without a trace" (link)	. "Vitalize" means "give strength and energy to" (link)	, but "revitalize" means to return to a state of vitality (hence the prefix "re" in "revitalize"). Vocabulary.com stresses, "In all cases, when something is revitalized, it has been restored to a better state" and, "Since vital things are alive, strong, and flourishing, when something gets revitalized, it is returned to health or life" (link)	. Ergo, if you are being "revitalized", you are being "restored" or "returned" to a previous state, and that said previous state is "better" or filled with "health or life" compared to your non-revitalized state. This is true "in all cases." Note the codex is not using "revitalize" to refer to the possession of Valkorion because it emphasizes it's unknown what happened to Vitiate after the Ziost cataclysm. Thus, Vitiate was weakened when he gobbled a planet, and only after doing such was his power restored to his previous and better state that Revan rivals.
Vitiate travels to Ziost and grows "more powerful by the hour," "every death seemingly extending his dark power" once he starts feeding there, widening the gap between him and Revan even further. Yet the Hero of Tython defeats him in one-on-one combat (link)	. Note how Vitiate had "limited his involvement to the area around New Adasta" and his puppets had been all knocked out by Theron's scheme, stopping his possession (link)	. Thus, Vitiate wasn't multitasking and was channelling his full might against the Hero - and lost. This is further corroborated by the website which states the only Hero has "the strength to stand against" Vitiate (link)	.
As shown above, the Hero defeated a weakened Vitiate.
The Outlander has also been labelled Failkorion's "most powerful opponent" as early as Chapter 1 of Knights of the Fallen Empire (link)	.
Great. Show me where that quote clarifies it's including dead characters.
Lord Scourge's vision also showed the Hero holding the Shit Emperor's power in his hands, which clearly cannot refer to Knights of the Eternal Throne as Scourge has no idea who Failkorion is and he vehemently believes the Shit Emperor is dead after Act III (link)	, so it's likely the Hero of Tython as of Act III is as powerful as the Shit Emperor in the vanilla game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8mT_bWqGnc
The Dread Masters' "combined power were insignificant compared to" (link)	, and were kept "in check" by (link)	, Vitiate, yet they still subdued the Hero with telepathy from across the galaxy (link)	.
It's likely the Hero of Tython as of Act III is as powerful as the Shit Emperor in the vanilla game, which puts him exorbitantly beyond Revan as established in the previous section. The only reason Revan was able to contend in Shadow of Revan was because he was amplified - and the Hero weakened - by an obscenely strong dark side nexus.
To refresh anyone who forgot the events of SOR, the Hero didn't fight Revan alone. He strolled up with Darth Marr, Satele Shan, Lana Beniko, Shae Vizla, Theron Shan, and Jakarro. An XS freighter also conducted targeted bombing runs on Revan mid-battle (link)	. And the team entered a state of "battle clarity" and had their "combat effectiveness" "greatly increased" by Satele's prodigious battle meditation (link)	. This included a boost to the Hero's Force power and Force reserves (link)	. Recall how significant Worrow Dowmat's battle meditation was for the Jedi strike team that fought Darth Bane.
Darth Bane - Rule of Two wrote: It had been many years since Farfalla had fought while empowered by Worror's battle meditation. He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian's amazing talent made him feel. The Force flowed through him with greater power, filling him with its might.
Fueled by Worror's battle meditation, she switched styles seamlessly, and her arms and blades became a blur as they carved figure eights in the air to catch and absorb the bolts of dark side energy.
Johun felt his strength and energy plummet, A wave of exhaustion and fatigue overwhelmed him, the beneficial effects of the battle meditation vanishing as Worror's concentration was broken.
Despite all that, everyone on the team audibly expressed dismay over how powerful Revan was:
• Marr: "He is strong with the Force!"
• Satele: "Grant me strength! . . . Press the attack!"
• Lana: "The Force is my servant! . . . Be strong! . . . So much power!"
• Shae: "Tough sucker! . . . Have some more! . . . Love a good scrap!"
• Theron: "Don't let up! . . . Let's go, people!"
• Jakarro: "Hit him with everything!"
Revan would have even defeated the team if not for spirit Revan (link)	, who seemingly shielded the Hero in raw light and dark side energy (link)	, described as "light side echoes" and "dark side fissures," allowing the Hero to free the rest of the team frozen by Revan's powers (link)	.
Altogether, I'm not buying the Hero's alleged weakening under the Yavin IV nexus would be more significant than the addition of six legendary fighters, spirit Revan, bombing runs, spiritual cleansing (4)	, and an amp that actually "greatly increased" his powers and abilities. (Lmao.)
THE DRAIN ARGUMENT
"If I have to snuff out every life on this world to draw the Emperor out, then so be it!
The Drain Argument is a minor point in my first post. It notes that Revan likely can drain all life on Yavin IV without external aid, which supports The Vitiate Argument's position that Revan can replicate weakened Vitiate's consumption of Ziost.
Revan was shocked Vitiate returned because he didn't know that Vitiate's inactive spirit could still feed off death to awaken, not because he thought draining thousands is impossible. (Lmao.) Revan created the thought bomb, knew the inferno ritual that scorched Ruusan, and had the means to try either with thousands of Jedi and Sith followers. Revan also could have just bombarded Yavin IV with his fleet: "These ships have enough firepower to breach Rishi's crust" (SOR). So, why didn't he? Because there's more to resurrecting Vitiate than just indiscriminate mass death.
You admit the Temple of Sacrifice (TOS) was "attuned directly" to Vitiate. But if Vitiate only needed indiscriminate mass death, what's the point of the TOS being Vitiate-specific? Again, Revan didn't know that Vitiate's inactive spirit could still feed off death to reawaken. By being "attuned directly" to Vitiate, the TOS circumvented that issue by funneling that power directly to Vitiate's spirit. That is why Revan wanted to try the TOS before doing everything solo. Moreover, your explanation forgets that Revan didn't want to just reawaken Vitiate; he wanted to resurrect Vitiate into a physical body (link)	. The mass death alone wouldn't just conjure a body for him. Freedon Nadd explained to Exar Kun that extensive Sith alchemy is required to create a body for a Sith spirit (link)	. Without the TOS, Revan would have to create a proper body for Vitiate also.
Of course, the TOS was destroyed, so Revan planned to do everything himself—namely, "snuff out all life on Yavin IV by hand" and conduct complex rituals to both funnel that power into Vitiate's spirit and create a new body for him. This would have been done relatively quickly given he was surrounded on all sides by the "Imperial and Republic command fleets." It's difficult to compare something like this to Vader's feats, but that's because the sheer breadth of knowledge and power required to "turn a living world barren" without aid and in short notice is so utterly beyond the low-level telekinetic feats that are Vader's stock-in-trade.
You're ignoring the context of the attack. Revan thought the strike team was stuck on the floor below, but he stretched his attack across a kilometer radius. Clearly Revan wasn't just trying to kill the strike team but "all enemies in a 1 km radius" (link)	, i.e. the "Imperial and Republic command fleets" that solidified their position directly up to the TOS. Moreover, the attack was "kinetic" (link)	, meaning it would be done via telekinesis, not Force drain, making your contention a false analogy. So, sure, Revan required time and aid to telekinetically kill perhaps hundreds of Jedi and Sith in a giant Force wave. If Revan had done that without time and aid, this debate would be versus Abeloth instead.
Also, Revan suggested that he held back during the TOS fight—"You have no idea what I am, what I've become." / "You don't even begin to comprehend what I've become" (SOR)—mocking that the Outlander couldn't even fathom his newfound power even after the Outlander fought him. This may have been because Revan wanted to conserve his power for Vitiate. So, you can't pin a ceiling on Revan using the TOS fight anyway.
Your entire Machine Core backlash argument is a red herring.* It makes no difference whether Revan can tank lightsaber hits with his will because he was still downed by the backlashing energies, meaning his willpower was approaching its limits.
Revan was literally ambushed by the kilometer-spanning attack yet still continued fighting three seconds later as if nothing happened. There's no indication of a ceiling. And need I remind you an off-guard Vader "almost died" when Luke "threw a grenade in his direction" (link)	and went into a coma from the small Iron Tower explosion (link)	?
Darth Vader's innards being exposed to Starkiller and the Emperor's destructive energies for a lengthy period without disintegrating speaks of much higher willpower on his part than Revan's. All you're doing by arguing Revan is able to tank lightsaber hits with his will is endorsing the notion that Darth Vader can too.
Raw energy exploding out of you and electrical energy coursing into you aren't the same. The former demanded willpower since you can't use a barrier, tutaminis, etc. on an attack already within you. The latter's threat was diminished by Vader's insulation and powers. What'd you have to prove is that the remaining lightning would have otherwise been strong enough to kill Vader had he not held himself together (which you can't).
Last edited by DarthAnt66 on July 18th 2019, 12:25 am; edited 1 time in total
THE VIVICAR ARGUMENT
"No! The darkness! Vivicar's will is too strong. I can't hold on! Please, kill me!"
The Vivicar Argument is the central case of my second post. It notes a pre-prime and immensely weakened Barsen'thor overcame Viviciar, who was powerful enough to telepathically ravage the minds of, and draw energy from, hundreds of Jedi Masters. Yet such a Barsen'thor was infinitesimal compared to the First Son, the Dread Masters, and Revan himself.
Before I tackle Azronger's points, many have asked for further proof Vivicar's telepathy and drain were by way of his own power and not the product of rituals or the plague's inherent properties, so I want to delve into that and do a general recap of my original argument.
1.) MENTAL LINKS: Vivicar could create mental links (link)	with anyone he had physically touched (link)	or were in his close vicinity (link)	. This granted him instant access to hundreds of Jedi's minds from across the galaxy and rendered the distance between them irrelevant.
2.) TELEPATHY: "The plague cripples its victims with paranoia and madness, driving them toward the dark side of the Force" (link)	. Yuon Par explicitly attributed this to Vivicar's power and mind, stating she could not resist his will: "No! The darkness! Vivicar's will is too strong. I can't hold on! Please, kill me!" (link)	. Vivicar said the same: "She can feel the power that she's challenging There is no hope. See how Yuon's will crumbles before mine" (link)	. Other Jedi also stated Vivicar personally polluted, twisted, and controlled their minds: "I could feel someone else in my mind. Polluting my thoughts, twisting them" (link)	/ "Yuon seemed to remember someone controlling her mind" (link)	/ "I saw what Lord Vivicar was able to do to Master Yuon. I'm not surprised he was able to twist your thoughts as well" (link)	/ "I can't believe I let that monster make me do those terrible things" (link)	/ "Vivicar! My head! Please, I can't block out his voice any longer. You must kill me to silence him" (link)	. Nomi Sunrider and Wole Vahn reinforced this was "like a kind of mind control" and "like the Jedi trick of persuading weak minds through the Force, except Yuon's tormenter is distant, and her mind hardly weak" (link)	.
3.) FORCE DRAIN: Vivicar used the mental link to freely siphon power from all those bound to him—"[Vivicar] drew on their strength to fuel his own power" (link)	—and did this simultaneous with the telepathic attacks—"But if the Sith who's controlling these Masters is drawing strength from them as well as turning them, then it is imperative that the Masters are freed from his control as quickly as possible" (link)	. After partially draining just five Jedi Masters, Vivicar claimed his power grew "beyond [the Barsen'thor's] comprehension" (i.e. he grew vastly in power) and "every moment made him stronger" (link)	.
Your argument is predicated on the idea that "succumbing" to the plague means being mind-controlled by Vivicar. The full line reveals what Vivicar actually means: "My plague has spread farther than you can imagine. Jedi Masters across the galaxy are succumbing to it as I speak. The plague binds these Masters to me. Hundreds of them - the heart and soul of your order" (link)	. He speaks "has spread" in past tense while "succumbing" and "binds" are in present tense, indicating the latter two are happening contemporaneously with one another - it's obvious what Vivicar means here and it's not telepathic domination.
The definition of "succumb" is "to yield to superior strength or force or overpowering appeal" (link)	. One cannot "succumb" to a mental linking or binding in and of itself because that has no inherent negative effects to yield to. However, Vivicar utilized this mental link as a passageway for his overwhelming telepathy and drain. That is what the "hundreds of Jedi Masters" were "succumbing" or "yielding" to. This fits with Syo Bakarn's comment upon Vivicar's defeat: "Jedi across the galaxy are reporting an improvement in their condition" (link)	. Whatever the Jedi were "succumbing" to was weakening their condition—a mental link alone would not, but drain and telepathy would weaken their body and mind.
The shielding ability cast a permanent "shield" around the Jedi's mind (link)	, "blocking" Vivicar's telepathy and drain (link)	. Without the technique, almost anyone would eventually succumb, yes. You can't just fend Vivicar off forever if your power—needed to combat his powers—was also being drained away to make him stronger. In the Barsen'thor's case, Vivicar would have TP attacked and drained him away as he first fought through his "overwhelming ship defenses" (link)	, hence the necessity of the shielding ritual. That doesn't suggest Vivicar's TP was a "disproportionately potent savant skill." Also note these mental shields were forged and sustained via the Barsen's raw power: "The shielding ritual will draw on your strength, and you can only regain what you've spent when the plaguemaster's bond with his victims is broken" (link)	/ "The shielding technique draws a lot of strength from me" (link)	/ "Letting your life force drain away, to shield a stranger from me -- how did that feel?" (link)	. So, while the shielding ability allowed the Barsen to focus his power in such a way, it was still his own power that Vivicar's couldn't pierce through.
And even if we take your baseless claim that "Vivicar's telepathy was a disproportionately potent savant skill" to be true, it's still true the Dread Masters were far greater telepaths. As you noted, had Vivicar attempted to TP dominate the Barsen with "paranoia and madness," the Barsen would have utilized the shielding ritual mid-attack to successfully (link)	"shield" his mind and "block Vivicar's influence" (link)	. Yet when the Dread struck the Barsen with "paranoia and madness," the Barsen crumbled to his knees in seconds (link)	—the shielding ritual utterly unable to protect his mind. Indeed, Gnost-Dural stated there was no "foolproof defense against their power" (link)	. These are the same Dread who, mind you, spent three centuries trying to break Revan's psyche with "paranoia and madness" yet failed. And for Revan to simultaneously shield himself from both Vitiate and the Dread, the Dread's powers must have been relatively inconsequential to the effort. That works well if Revan's near Vitiate's level, for the Dread were "insignificant compared to the Emperor," explaining how they couldn't help much against a Vitiate-tier being in Revan.
Overall, Vivicar could utilize a combination of telepathy and drain to quickly erode the wills of "hundreds" of Jedi Masters and force them to "succumb" to his influence. If you think that's indicative of his general power-level, that's great—an immensely weakened, pre-prime Barsen'thor slapped him down in direct combat. If you somehow think his telepathy was "disproportionately potent," that's also great—he's still a gnat to the Dread. And Revan… well, he's laughably beyond Vivicar and the Dread any way you look at it.
THE IMMORTALITY ARGUMENT
"You've carried on, dragging the remains of a body that should have long since faded to dust."
The Immortality Argument is a series of points across my second and third posts. It holds that Revan, being a corpse fueled by willpower, is uniquely impervious to many conventional attacks.
Revan's resurrection aboard the Foundry wasn't accomplished through his own power either. After expunging his light side from his being, he became a typical dark side spirit. Dark side spirits need an anchor to subsist in the physical realm without deliquescing into the void - this can be either a dark side nexus or a small item imbued with the dark side (link)	.
Revan in this case had both: all Rakatan technology is powered by and enveloped in dark side energies, and the Foundry is compared to and listed alongside the Star Forge - a nexus that dwarfs even the likes of Korriban - as one of their most notable creations (link)	; his mask and robes are also focal points of dark power, with the latter even amplifying the user's inherent dark side energies (link)	. Therefore Revan must have latched his spirit onto his robes and mask like Darth Nihilus as well as the residual dark energies of the Foundry to prevent dissipation in the void, and re-inhabited his body sometime afterwards. Your comparison to Emperor Palpatine is a false equivalency as the Emperor did not have an anchor for most of his voyage across space and had to subsist "through sheer will."*
The underlined claims are baseless.
Refer to spirit Revan's statement here: "When I died, I had come to terms. I was ready to become one with the Force, but I soon realized that was only what part of me wanted" (link)	. The quote reveals that Revan's spirit bifurcation did not happen "when [Revan] died" but "soon" thereafter—perhaps longer if there was a time gap between spirit Revan's "realization" and the split itself. Given the "journey into the Netherworld is instantaneous" after death (link)	, and the fissure did not happen "instantaneous" with his death, Revan must've went to the Netherworld still whole. Accordingly, for dark Revan to resurrect from the dead, he had to escape the Netherworld. Note that Palpatine said, "An ancient Naboo legend speaks of a realm called Chaos, blocked by a sextet of impenetrable barriers. If Chaos exists, then it takes a sufficiently determined mind to overcome and return to life" (link)	, meaning that dark Revan breaking free from such was an incredible feat replicated only by Palpatine himself and perhaps Darth Krayt (hence my earlier comparison with Palpatine that you slandered as a false equivalency).
And to poke more holes in that argument, dark Revan wasn't a dark side spirit; he wielded pure light side energy on the Forgotten Terrace (link)	whereas "a dark side spirit can be destroyed using the light side of the Force" (link)	. Moreover, Revan's mask and robes weren't even left on the Foundry—it vanished alongside his "death explosion" (1	,2	). Revan likely teleported it elsewhere for preservation until he returned. Plus, nothing actually says the Foundry is a dark side nexus, and dozens of rank-and-file Jedi were shown meditating on it.
Revan simply piggybacked off of a dark side nexus like all common Sith spirits without having to exert his willpower much at all. He himself conceded that rejecting his light side "was the only way to go on--to remain," and if he united with it again, he would "fade" and "become diminished," because as a neutral spirit he would not be amped by the dark side energies or latch his spirit onto them (link)	. You omitted all of this from your description of the feat.**
Dark Revan's statement—"If we unite, what I am - won't it fade? Become diminished?" (SOR)—had nothing to do with power. He asked if "what I am"—the embodiment of Revan's "strength" and "passion," "pure" and "unburdened" without spirit Revan "holding him back" and "hiding behind Jedi platitudes"—would "become diminished" by reuniting with spirit Revan. And the answer is yes. That would be like mixing dark Revan's alcohol with spirit Revan's fruit punch—the alcohol concentration would "become diminished." It baffles me how you thought the writers sat around agreed, "Revan will be sad because he's no longer amped by nexuses!"
Actually think about what you're writing.
You're rebutting premise 1—that an incapacitated Revan tanked many lightsaber hits to the body in the TOS—with premise 2—that Revan tanked a lightsaber hit to the face in the trailer. However, you later argued premise 2 is false via the trailer being non-canon, meaning you have no rebuttal to 1 and Revan is semi-invulnerable to lightsaber attacks. And if premise 2 is true, then Revan's still semi-invulnerable to lightsaber attacks. You walked yourself into a corner where, either way you go, Revan's semi-invulnerable to lightsaber attacks.
Premises 1 and 2 aren't even mutually exclusive. Premise 2 happened during the Forgotten Terrace fight, across which Revan incapacitated many members of the strike team for periods of time, so the trailer briefly showing him fight only Satele is consistent. Premise 1 happened when another strike team ambushed Revan and forced the Machine Core's energy to backlash within him, so the strike team would all be around him while he's "unable to act," yet no one could kill an incapacitated Revan. Note that even having "a single person" attacking an "unable to act" Revan, like you suggest, still proves my point: said person, despite being among the galaxy's greatest champions, couldn't kill a literally immobile Revan with a lightsaber or blaster (for reasons soon explained).
Spirit Revan concurs when he states Dark Revan is "too weak" and "won't last" against Vitiate (link)	. According to yourself, Revan exerting his will continuously would in fact make him stronger, not weaker, and he keeps his body from falling apart through sheer willpower, so we can conclude he is exerting his will throughout the fight without pause and was at full strength when Spirit Revan deemed him "too weak" to win against a heavily diminished Vitiate. To substantiate this, right before Vitiate appears, Dark Revan confidently declares he will not stop in his pursuit of his enemy's resuscitation, deeming a confrontation a necessity. Only once Vitiate appears and demonstrates his power that Dark Revan falls to his knees in distress and deem what he just saw "impossible" and that he has "failed" (link)	Even if you do manage to explain why Dark Revan would be weakened, you'd have to do backtracking and concede Revan's willpower can't last for 300 years if it dries over the course of one fight, meaning he would not get stronger from continuously exerting his will and thus cannot have parity with the Shit Emperor as of vanilla The Old Republic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDcQA2dVYL0&t=0m3s
Spirit Revan said dark Revan was "too weak" and "won't last" after Vitiate had already left Yavin IV and dark Revan said, "I've failed. He was supposed to face me" (SOR). The quote had nothing to do with fighting him. In your hypothetical, spirit Revan would have said, "You wouldn't last," as in, "You wouldn't survive the fight." Instead, "you won't last" means dark Revan "will not last," as in he's currently dying. Recall Darth Sion's demise in KOTOR 2's dark side ending: "You have defeated me - flesh and belief, both cast down." Meetra eroded Sion's will to live, and he gave up and died. Likewise, dark Revan's explicit reason for resurrection and existence (link)	was to destroy Vitiate, so seeing Vitiate trick him and escape into the galaxy as an incorporated entity shattered his will and explains both his abrupt impending death and why dark Revan suddenly became open to rejoining with spirit Revan despite moments earlier unequivocally rejecting him, indicating a direct correlation between Revan's sustainability and willpower.
I've established—and you even agreed—that Revan biologically died on the Foundry then essence transferred back into his corpse. It logically follows that Revan's sustained existence could not be contingent on the physical wellbeing of a corpse—"physical wellbeing" and "corpse" are diametrically opposed concepts. Instead, we need just refer to the only other character to essence transfer into their corpse: Darth Andeddu. Per Darth Wyyrlok, "You animated your own body after its death. Your mind functioned, your body responded to its commands." (link)	/ "You transferred your intellect to what we assumed was a holocron. It was more. It was a shell - just as that moldering corpse is a shell. Your mind forces your body to obey even though dead!" (link)	In other words, Andeddu animated his decaying corpse through willpower. The same should be true for Revan, and indeed that's exactly what spirit Revan said: "You've carried on, dragging the remains of a body that should have long since faded to dust." Revan "dragged" (i.e. exhibited forceful exertion over) "the remains of a body" (i.e. a corpse). It likewise logically follows that defeating such a being would necessitate snuffing out their will or control over their corpse, not thrusting a lightsaber into their already decaying heart. In fact, Wyyrlok defeated Andeddu exactly this way (link)	. Note this reality also explains how Revan internally tanked kilometer-spanning Force explosions and lightsaber attacks or died because he lost the will to live. And unfortunately for you, unlike with Wyyrlok versus Andeddu, Vader's neither overpowering Revan's will when Vitiate, the Dread Masters, or even the Netherworld couldn't, nor ravaging Revan's body enough to render it impossible to animate.
MACE/DOOKU/VADER SCALING
"Vader's not even an all-powerful bad guy, he's kind of a flunky."
Take a careful look at the wording of the quote. It says "an attack," singular, meaning you have to be a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda to survive Dooku's Force attack. Therefore, if you're not as powerful as Yoda, you will not survive even a single Force attack from Dooku.
The "such" in "Dark side powers enabled Sith Lord Darth Tyranus to manipulate the Force at will, hurling objects or casting devastating energy bolts. Only a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda could survive such an attack." refers to "hurling objects or casting devastating energy bolts," the totality of which the source describes as "an attack." This is reinforced by far weaker Jedi than Yoda surviving "single Force attacks from Dooku," such as 22 BBY Anakin deflecting Dooku's Force lightning (link)	and 22 BBY Obi-Wan quickly recovering from Dooku's telekinesis (link)	, despite Dooku fighting to kill. So, per the quote, only Yoda could let Dooku stand there and unleash his full potency for sixty seconds without fighting back. Mace wouldn't have to "survive such an attack" because he wouldn't let Dooku employ such a prolonged barrage. Thus, the quote doesn't place Dooku above Mace.
Star Wars The Clone Wars adult novelization wrote: "Give me the Huttlet, Skywalker," Dooku said quietly. "Or I'll have to kill you."
He'd swallowed the ruse, then. "I think you were going to do that anyway."
"Very well."
The tone of the confrontation was strangely courteous, like an Irmenu noblemen's duel. Dooku threw out his hand and sent Force lightning crackling across the sand toward Anakin, lighting up the night. Anakin evaded the bolts and channeled the lightning to his lightsaber.
"You're making progress," Dooku said. He lunged forward with his lightsaber, forcing Anakin back, then somersaulted over him. "Being here is painful, isn't it? Your home. Too many ghosts to contemplate. Stayed away too long, perhaps..."
Pablo Hidalgo deliberately retconned the book's dramatis personae by changing Revan's rank from "Jedi Master" to "Jedi Knight" in the Essential Reader's Companion (ERC), which makes sense given the Council wanted to re-train, banish, and/or silence him. The ERC meticulously defines the precise rank of every Jedi (i.e. Padawan, Knight, Master, etc.), even updating Jedi ranks across books or within books (link)	, meaning this designation denotes the specific rank.
Also, the Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide (KOTORCG) entry on Revan, which covers up to his journey into the Unknown Regions, lists Revan as a Jedi Knight but not as a Jedi Master, despite properly listing actual Jedi Masters like Lucien Draay, Kreia, Vandar Tokare, and Atris.
Revan's:
Atris':
Your only other quote that lists novel Revan as a Jedi Master is from the SWTOR website, but such is retconned by the ERC and KOTORCG.
While I agree the quote still puts Mace above Revan as of the Foundry, novel Revan's far stronger than Foundry Revan anyway. I imagine you'll try to retroactively apply the quote back to novel Revan, but it's fully linguistically correct to say the Fact File quote assesses Jedi powers as of the rank of Jedi Master. Moreover, I discovered Fact Files is an in-universe source written by New Republic historians (link)	, so their speculation on a Jedi's power 4,000 years prior isn't binding regardless. And for those that say Fact Files is still ironclad because it contains "facts" and "information" (what history book doesn't?), the New Essential Chronology (NEC) is said to be "the comprehensive and official chronicle" yet Leland Chee still said, "Also, as you go further back in history, the chances that information was lost or altered increases. For now, consider the NEC as based on the best information that in-universe historians have."
Darth Vader (link)	> Darth Tyranus >>>> TPM Mace > Revan Reborn. Of course, I think Vader is still a lot more powerful but this is going by your interpretation of Lucas' quote to demonstrate that even if I conceded every point, Revan's still just factually below Vader as I stated at the end of my third post.
The two quotes you cited to put Vader above Dooku have nothing to do with Dooku. You have no way to prove the Fact Files quote is time independent, especially since the context seems Galactic Empire-centric, and the Dark Empire Handbook is discussing the dark side disciples under the role of "Emperor Palpatine," with references made to "Empire," "Imperial Court," "campaign against the Jedi," "dark side adepts," etc.
Overall, you failed to prove that Mace is more powerful than Revan, that Dooku is more powerful than Mace, and that Vader is more powerful than Dooku.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7v5MmZQMN9k
Last edited by DarthAnt66 on July 18th 2019, 12:25 pm; edited 8 times in total
THE BLITZKRIEG
"You are so far less now than what you were, you are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory . . . This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker. Forever."
All subsequent arguments operate under the premise Anakin during Operation Knightfall (i.e. KFV) was equal to or more powerful than Yoda. This premise is supported by twelve statements and many feats (link)	and is the cornerstone of Azronger's core argument across this debate, so him rejecting it now is debate suicide. In any and all places of contradiction, this premise would take precedence over the premise ROTJ Vader was more powerful than KFV, for the former is by far the more repeatedly stated position and has support from George Lucas.
Star Wars Insider 72 wrote:
(1) Vader has inferior "skill and power" to Anakin, and "being a half droid construct seriously hampered his lightsaber prowess." This is per Star Wars Q&A, a section of Star Wars Insider where Pablo Hidalgo or Leland Chee "provide actual answers to your Star Wars questions." Moreover, Pablo spoke on the behalf of Lucas, so the quote's arguably G-Canon. And you agreed the quote's legitimate as of June 25th 2019:
Star Wars Insider 86 wrote: Not only is the blue lightning no longer an innovation, Luke's inability to counter it, as Yoda did in Episode III, may give the audiences even more reason to worry -- Luke is not that powerful a Jedi.
(2) Either Luke is not a powerful Jedi, or Luke is not that powerful a Jedi relative to Yoda. Given the quote contrasts Yoda and Luke specifically, and the former option is rather absurd, the latter must be true. While Luke's weaker than Yoda (or KFV), I've shown over a dozen quotes affirming Luke's equally powerful with Vader (e.g. "Luke's powers were just as strong as his father's now, and just as deadly" (ROTJSB)).
Star Wars Encyclopedia - Darth Vader wrote: Darth Vader was encased in sinister black armor. The man underneath was mortally wounded in a lightsaber duel, and the dark suit includes extensive machinery to keep Vader alive. The sounds of his mechanical lungs accompany his every step. Such injuries greatly diminished his ability to use the Force, but Vader is still very powerful.
(3) Vader's "ability to use the Force"—not potential ability—was "greatly diminished." This is a general character summary and not time-specific.
Star Wars Head-To-Head wrote: An epic duel made impossible by time. The fully grown Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker crosses lightsabers with Anakin Skywalker before his brutal defeat on Mustafar. Both Skywalkers are at the peak of their powers.
(4) As of 4 ABY, which seems to be when the book extends to, Anakin's at "the peak of his powers" "before his brutal defeat on Mustafar," not ROTJ.
Note there's a lot of misinformation about Star Wars Head-to-Head. The book itself was written by Pablo Hidalgo and officially published by Lucasfilm Licensing. While a "cabal of experts" gave their "ideas" on who wins at the end of the book, that is not presented as canonically binding, and Pablo even mocked their picks and said they "determine the winner through means mysterious." That doesn't mean the pages Pablo wrote aren't in-continuity.
Star Wars Blueprints - The Ultimate Collection wrote:
(5) "Although the Dark Lord was entirely dependent on his armor's life support systems, and his formidable powers were drastically reduced by his injuries, he remained strong with the Force for the rest of his life." Put emphasis on "although," "drastically reduced," and "for the rest of his life."
George Lucas, Star Wars The Empire Strikes Back DVD commentary wrote: Now he's half-machine and half-man so he's lost a lot of the power of the Force and a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor.
(6) Big Daddy George himself states Vader "lost a lot of the power of the Force." Lucas uses "power" to mean "applicable power" given he then says Vader also lost his ability to become "more powerful than Palpatine." If he was using "power" to mean "potential power," then Anakin would already be more powerful than Palpatine. Note while this is from the ESB commentary, the reasoning Lucas gives (i.e. Vader being half-machine, half-man) clearly extends to ROTJ. This statement is G-Canon and, by itself, retcons any quotes suggesting the contrary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GnYtuhZXzo&t=0m50s
Let's go through this.
How powerful is Obi-Wan?
Yoda said, "Strong enough to face Lord Sidious, you will never be. Die you will, and painfully" (ROTSAN). Palpatine said, "Just imagine what Yoda might have done to you," after Vader's defeat on Mustafar (RODV). And Lucas said, "You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor" (MOROTS). So, Obi-Wan's repeatedly affirmed to be significantly weaker than Palpatine, Mace, or Yoda.
How powerful is KFV?
As established earlier, KFV's equal to or more powerful than Yoda.
How powerful is MFV?
Obi-Wan and MFV were explicitly "evenly matched" (1)	and "had come to a stalemate" (2)	in a TK contest in which "both were trying to use a Force push on each other." MFV was "repelled" and went "soaring across the room" alongside Obi-Wan, indicating both overpowered the other simultaneously. They were also said to be "evenly matched in strength" (3)	and "seemed evenly matched" (4	,5)	overall, and both "fought each other with all of the Jedi powers at their disposal" (6)	, "called upon their vast Jedi training and knowledge for an edge" (7)	, and "jockeyed for a tactical advantage" (8)	to no avail.
You justify this by arguing Obi-Wan grew far stronger mid-way through the Mustafar duel, but the "evenly matched" quotes apply from the start of the duel, and Obi-Wan TK matched Anakin before Obi-Wan's alleged growth. Moreover, Yoda still said Obi-Wan "will never be strong enough to face Palpatine," Palpatine still said Yoda would have brutalized MFV far worse than Obi-Wan despite being able to sense a power increase in Obi-Wan, and Lucas still said Obi-Wan couldn't "compete" with Palpatine in ROTS. Given KFV's with Yoda and MFV's with Obi-Wan, KFV must be far stronger than MFV. And unless you think Obi-Wan grew significantly between the start of ROTS and Mustafar, MFV must also be below Anakin or Dooku as of the start of ROTS.
Why is MFV weaker than KFV?
You later argue Vader became "psychologically unbalanced" by Marek's asking about his father, which "undoubtedly factored negatively into his performance." You even suggest it's a central reason why Marek was able to TK dominate Vader. I'm at a loss, though, how you can think that yet unequivocally reject the premise someone "filled with a seething maelstrom of pain, confusion, and anger" and with "tortured emotions roiling within him" (UAS), among other descriptions used in previous posts, would also be "negatively" "psychologically unbalanced." You even use quotes from the Invisible Hand fight to argue MFV just became cocky and stupid, forgetting that, when Anakin cast aside his internal agony that rendered him "blind" and "mindless", he gained newfound clarity and ability. It follows that MFV regaining said internal agony a hundredfold would cause the opposite effect. Quotes highlighting MFV's "newfound power," including Lucas', don't contradict this viewpoint. I am not arguing MFV suddenly "lost Force power"—I am arguing MFV's shattered psyche wouldn't be able to fully call on and utilize his newfound power while being blocked by pain, guilt, confusion, fear, etc. And it's even stated MFV's rage outright "blocked his ability to sense" Obi-Wan—"Despite his powers and years of attunement to Obi-Wan, his rage had blocked his ability to sense his former Master's presence on Mustafar until he saw the Jedi standing in the hatch of Padme's starship" (RAFODV)—so it's easy to see how his emotions would impact other aspects of the fight.
As for the tiers, those reflect lightsaber combat, not necessarily Force power. That's evident by tier eight Obi-Wan TK stalemating and repulsing tier nine MFV. Lucas created the tiers as reference for Nick Gillard when filling in the "they battle" segments of the script with fight choreography, whereas all the Force attacks were written directly into the script. Gillard stresses that MFV's a nine because "Anakin has learned the art" and "Anakin has learned the fighting." I don't see any issue with that—Anakin wouldn't "unlearn" the art of fighting because he's in turmoil—and augmentation and reflexes are predominantly passive and instinctual (unless you specifically will it otherwise, like Force speed). Also, note the "most formidable threat" quote could easily refer to KFV, not MFV.
And consider the alternative. If you put MFV above KFV, that just means all the quotes from Lucas, Hidalgo, etc. that lift KFV above suit Vader likewise apply to MFV, leaving you with nothing. So, it's ultimately beneficial for the Vader Brigade to agree with me here.
((Note to the reader: I made two arguments against a quote. Azronger disputed one of the arguments but agreed the other was a "fair point."))
I'm glad you concede the quote (link)	doesn't put Vader > Anakin. Still, I'm baffled why you're needlessly disputing a few of my lines. Not that it matters, but my point was a conclusion contingent on false premises isn't necessarily true. That's not the fallacy of composition.
And this is before ESB, so Lucas' quote retcons it. Dismissed.
I provided a rationale—you just didn't provide a rebuttal. Yes, Obi-Wan "sensed the power of his former apprentice," that's how Force sensing goes. That doesn't mean Obi-Wan identified Vader by comparing his power level to MFV. (Lmao.) All Force users have a unique Force signature. Obi-Wan sensed Vader's power and recognized his presence as Anakin's: "Ben had sensed a most particular presence. Darth Vader" (LAL). Sha Koon identified Vader as Anakin the same way: "Beneath that mask—Skywalker?! I know him in the Force—and from his thoughts! And as my Force echo trails across his mind, he knows me" (link)	.
The rule "quotes have no expiration date" doesn't mean we can't consider the context when interpreting its meaning, and the context surrounding "Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers"—the 2002 publication date, the article exclusively comparing ANH and ESB Vader, the article still stating Vader's "technique lacks the advanced polish of study with lifelong masters," and ESB Luke being "able to hold up against" Vader despite being far weaker than Yoda—indicate the quote is suit Vader specific.
And this is during ESB, so Lucas' quote retcons it. Dismissed.
Star Wars Jedi Battles wrote: This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker while Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thirst for revenge.
This is during ANH, so Lucas' quote retcons it. Dismissed.
Obi-Wan Kenobi, Star Wars A New Hope adult novelization wrote: Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words."
Darth Vader, Star Wars Return of the Jedi adult novelization wrote: Lord Vader did not mind waiting, though, nor was he even aware of it. For it was an honor, and a noble activity, to kneel at his ruler's feet. He kept his eyes inward, seeking reflection in his own bottomless core. His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. He felt engorged with this power; it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground.
Vader's feelings of power and mastery intensified in Palpatine's presence—"Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery - of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission - all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more" (ROTJAN)—and Vader's power "resonated" with Palpatine's own—"His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. He felt engorged with this power; it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground" (ROTJAN). So, Vader's explicitly neither a reliable narrator nor at his normal power in the scene.
Your quotes from the ROTJ comic and Kotobukiya statue are solid, but I've presented far more quotes cementing KFV about ROTJ Vader, so it doesn't matter. The rest are addressed and/or rendered illegitimate by Lucas above.
That's, like, one of the most common uses of metaphors. On-panel Vader was hit by flamethrowers, blasted by a stun gun, then woke up chained to a pole. If the central character of all of Star Wars died and resurrected off-panel, we would get more than a vague passing comment. Hell, even the crawl just says Vader was "captured" and nothing else. Garoche Tarkin's just highlighting Vader's resilience (i.e. reawakening rather than dying) and that Saro anticipated this (since Vader's a powerful wizard).
Vader used the chest panel to control his suit's functions, but all the systems that actually kept him alive were embedded and auto-regulated deeper within the suit. If the panel was damaged, that may just mean Vader couldn't change anything, not that all his functions were permanently switched to opposite settings, especially considering the default setting is probably "on" if it's used 24/7. And that's likely what happened given there's nothing suggests Vader had any trouble breathing. Note the one time someone actually did press the button, Vader immediately began to suffocate (link)	.
"Vader is weak and broken, but you can still join me."
GALEN MAREK VS DARTH VADER
The intensity of Vader's attack increasing doesn't mean he wasn't psychologically unbalanced; it actually bolsters the idea, because Galen is pricking at his one sore spot - family - which, despite making him angrier, still hindered him in his final duel with Luke Skywalker (link)	: the circumstances are practically identical.
Your link neither states nor implies Vader was hindered. Vader's "evil was being compromised" because he just resolved to inflict great pain in Luke but couldn't because Luke hid away, hence Vader's next thought—"The boy was clever indeed. Vader knew he must move with extreme caution now." (ROTJAN)—and Luke's response—"I wish no advantage, Father. I will not fight you. Here, take my weapon" (ROTJAN). Besides, how does any of that relate to asking about Vader's father? You have no argument. My position that "an amped-up Vader was brutally humiliated by Marek, who in turn was weaker than the Emperor" stands.
Your theory about HK-47's comments referring exclusively to Jedi is not only false but also misinformed as he wasn't even talking about anger or rage but making one "doubt himself, his beliefs, or his intentions."
It's hard to guess what you're referring to if you just paste two ten minute videos. Regardless, Marek asking about Vader's father wouldn't make Vader "doubt himself, his beliefs, or his intentions." It would remind Vader of his past, making him angrier and stronger.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_69wvG7Bqa8&t=0m7s
If a Force user can apply their power in a feat, then that is applicable power and not dependent on their Force potential. I've never seen any basis for your groundless fan theory in the lore whatsoever [It's a non sequitur anyway*: "in feats that require continuous exertion, Anakin (and Marek) can immerse themselves into their unprecedented Force reserves to outlast and outperform almost anyone" doesn't follow from "Anakin held back a theta storm despite Obi-Wan noting even Yoda likely couldn't do that." Why couldn't Obi-Wan simply have been underestimating Yoda? You need more than one premise to support your conclusion.
Obi-Wan regarded Yoda as the most powerful Jedi and saw him fight in AOTC; he should have a good gauge of his power. And even if not, Obi-Wan's obviously still familiar with Dooku yet wasn't even sure if Yoda let alone Dooku could replicate 21 BBY Anakin's feat. And 22 BBY Anakin also broke the Order's "leap record"—a contest of Force augmentation—"smashing" Windu's all-time best. Both feats illustrate those with great potential power can sometimes manifest power far beyond their combative norm, notably in situations of continuous exertion like the theta storm or a charged Force leap given they would be diving deep into their Force reserves. That doesn't mean they have the mastery or control to quickly summon and integrate that vast power into a fight. Otherwise, Anakin wouldn't hold back a theta storm one day and rival Asajj Ventress the next. And why wouldn't an end-all, be-all prodigy like Marek be any different? After all, Marek certainly doesn't think Vader scales to his mid-game feats: "You haven't beaten me in a fair fight since I was a child" (link)	/ "I've always been stronger than you" (TFU2VG).
Star Wars Clone Wars Gambit - Siege wrote: "You'll be fine, Anakin," said Obi-Wan. "I doubt anyone will ever break your Temple leap record."
The one he'd set just over a year ago. The one that had smashed Mace Windu's leap by nearly fifteen meters. No, probably no one ever would break that.
Also, you never addressed my second point, which stands on its own: "Even if Vader's applicably comparably powerful to the Marek that nudged a Star Destroyer, that doesn't mean he can maintain such a level of power for the required duration to pull off the feat. Vader's smaller Force reserves, reflected in his weaker potential, will clock him out far quicker."
And who are you to even talk about "groundless fan theories" after your Nathema nexus debacle and arguing Vader definitely "beat" the Dark Apprentice (DA) in a fight because we see the DA kneeling before Vader with some cuts? Though, that segways nicely into our next section . . .
STARKILLER VS DARTH VADER
Lightsaber cuts cause smoke too.
The DA had smoke coming off his back but not his cuts. That's indicative of Force lightning.
And since Vader wanted to test whether the Dark Apprentice was freed of his memories, why would he pit him up against the other clones who weren't part of the original Galen Marek's life?
Starkiller sympathized with and adopted Marek's plight. The DA fighting Marek's other clones would desensitize him to Marek's memories and help associate Marek as the enemy.
Darth Vader himself was, though, more than anyone else. They dueled to test the Dark Apprentice's loyalty, whether he'd keep attacking his Master even if he commanded him to stop (like the previous clone did (link)	), which explains why they cease fighting. And no, this doesn't debunk my original argument because if the Dark Apprentice could have crushed Vader instantly, there wouldn't have been any struggle and the Dark Apprentice wouldn't have been wounded. They sparred for some time, but Vader brought it to a close in mid-way through to test the Dark Apprentice - that's the most likely interpretation.
That's a totally convoluted fan-fiction. Your argument is wholly speculatory, not to mention my interpretation is easily as viable as yours.
Even worse given Vader's never beaten either.
Anyway, Starkiller believes the clones which he obliterates could have easily beaten Darth Vader, but he only has experience against Vader from the first game.
Starkiller battled Vader with Force lightning and watched as Vader tried to stop his tie-fighter with telekinesis. He should be well aware of Vader's powers yet still thought the clones he obliterated would "easily" take Vader.
Moreover, not only did The Force Unleashed 2 (TFU 2) Vader "know the measure of his former apprentice now" based on their TFU 1 fight, "but the same was true in reverse" (1)	. In other words, TFU 2 Starkiller "knew the measure"—or extent—of Vader's abilities based on TFU 1, indicating Vader hadn't grown much or at all in the interim. All Starkiller notices is that Vader's now fighting more cautiously (2)	. Given "Marek brutally humiliated an amped-up Vader" in that Death Star fight, this reinforces my argument that Starkiller could have also if not for his exhaustion. Reminder: "Once Galen Marek "understands a better way to kill" and proclaims, "I don't need to hate you in order to beat you," the fight becomes completely and increasingly one-sided. The text even marks the shift: "With a new strength of his own, he forced Darth Vader onto his back foot," strikes Vader repeatedly in a short span of time, then telekinetically dominates him."
You're completely neglecting the other versions of the event. In the video games, Starkiller "continually attacks Vader in a frenzied state" and the only words he speaks to him are death threats.Almost throughout the whole ordeal, Starkiller is literally glowing blue and sparkling with electricity, which is the signal of Force fury in the game, granting "infinite Force energy" and "augmenting" his Force powers (link)	. The Prima Official Game Guide also notes Starkiller uses Force rage right before Vader ragdolls him for over 20 seconds in the Wii version (link)	.
Given you're deflecting to other mediums, I take it you agree Starkiller wasn't in a mindless Force rage in the novel given he actively curtailed his "anger and despair" from "leading him headlong into the dark side" then even plead to Vader to join him. Leland Chee has repeatedly stated a novel takes precedence over gameplay mechanics (3,4)	, and gameplay mechanics are S-Canon (5)	or in-continuity but "secondary" to G-Canon and C-Canon, meaning the novel's version stands. So, Starkiller wasn't "rage amped," and, consequently, he was still suffering from nigh-unprecedented Force fatigue effects.
The mere thought of Juno Eclipse is enough to restore Starkiller to peak capacity even after being deprived of sustenance for 13 days straight and being on the brink of death (link)	. Throughout the story, Starkiller performs infinitely more taxing stunts than surviving in a pit for 13 days, so we can infer the thought of Juno kept him strong for his whole quest and refreshed him every time he exerted himself to his limits. During his duel with Darth Vader, "knowing Juno was close, he fought his former Master with single-minded focus," meaning his prior exhaustion would be gone and he was operating at peak performance level against Vader.
There's not even one reference to Force power anywhere in that linked quote (link)	. (Lmao.) Starkiller just escaped Himmler and Auschwitz after being tortured "for what felt like a lifetime," day-dreamed about how great it was to see sunlight and be a free agent again, and began to fly toward his DTF love obsession he just found out was still alive. Ergo, "he felt stronger than ever" refers to his psychological state rather than his power level. And the least, it's clearly vague enough to not use conclusively, especially since not even Luke Skywalker could do what you're arguing.
Sam Witwer, who you use as a legitimate source, clarifies that even then, Vader threw the fight and had been toying with Starkiller the whole time (link)	. Do note, however, that my argument functions perfectly fine without Witwer as well.
Witwer said Vader may have threw the fight in a Twitch live-stream where he discussed possible plot-lines for TFU 3. Witwer stressed they never even got past the concept art stage. In contrast, the TFU 2 script states, "We were adamant that though he might be defeated in combat, Vader is never completely vanquished. Even here, he is a proud warrior, perhaps secretly hoping that Starkiller will deliver a killing blow," from an out-of-universe perspective. Vader had no way of knowing Rahm Kota would run out last-second to stop Starkiller and suggest to take Vader to "a secret rebel base." And if Vader was holding back for that purpose, why would he secretly hope to die?
The Prima Official Game Guide for the game notes Vader is a lesser lightsaber duelist than a Force user.
That quote doesn't mean if Vader evenly dueled X then he must be stronger than X in the Force. You also have to consider the strengths and weaknesses of X, and Starkiller's famous for his raw power, not necessarily his dueling.
And we have multiple instances of Vader ragdolling someone he struggled with in a duel (link)	.
Perhaps you're more liberal with the term than me, but I wouldn't consider any of those scans "ragdolling." Using Force choke or Force push in combat isn't "ragdolling."
Him doing that to Starkiller when he wasn't just stalemating him in sabers, but winning, is 100% an indication of vast superiority.
The text conveys Vader and Starkiller as almost perfect equals in the cloning tower and out on the spire. Of course, note Starkiller (a) annihilating an army of Force users that would have "easily" "overpowered" Vader and (b) dumping out all his Force reserves versus a 150 meter frigate and the clones before he even fought Vader both independently show Starkiller was, normally, far beyond Vader.
And none of this addresses my argument.
If Vader's Force toss (link)	actually meant he could "ragdoll" Starkiller whenever, then he wouldn't have stalemated Starkiller twice-over. The novel states Vader "threw wrecked platforms and cloning tubs at" Starkiller, but why would Vader bother if he could just "ragdoll" him? Then, the prima guide says, "When Vader realizes that you're tougher than he expected, he summons the help of the clones in the nearby vats" (link)	(which is not contradicted by the novel) but, again, why would Vader summon help if he could just "ragdoll" him? Later, the script reads, "Starkiller appears to have the upper hand, until he suffers another intense vision. Starkiller stumbles, reeling from the vision. Vader uses the opportunity to Force push him backwards" (link)	, the novel reads, "The Dark Lord took advantage of his momentary confusion. He delivered a telekinetic shove that threw Starkiller backward off the platform and down to the lower levels of the ruined cloning tower," and the prima guide reads, "You see Juno in your arms, her life slipping away. The moment of hesitation is just what Vader needs to take the advantage. He strikes you down and retreats on a floating droid" (link)	. In other words, Starkiller "appeared to have the upper hand," and Vader "needed" an "opportunity" to "take advantage" of Starkiller's "momentary confusion" to "deliver a telekinetic shove" and "retreat." It's not "ragdolling" if you "need" the other guy "reeling from a vision" to push him. Then, during the spire fight, Vader and Starkiller "fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire," and despite the fact "Vader did everything in his power to stop him," "neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked." If Vader was "vastly superior"—or even noticeably superior—to Starkiller, why couldn't Vader "doing everything in his power" to break their eternal stalemate succeed?
Dare I posit Vader wasn't actually "vastly superior" to Starkiller, and instead Starkiller's Force exhaustion and spiraling emotions of "horror", "self-reproach", and "fear" after watching Juno "die" made him vulnerable to the Force toss? That makes perfect sense of everything in the novel and script.
Last edited by DarthAnt66 on August 23rd 2019, 12:31 am; edited 7 times in total
"Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker are equally strong in the Force."
Are we reading the same book? Luke "not battling to the fullest"obviously refers to him retreating and stating he would not fight Vader, as contrasted with his earlier fury-driven assault during which his power was increased dramatically (link)	.*
Yes, Luke didn't want to fight. That's the point. That's why Vader said Luke was "not battling to the fullest"—not that he wasn't battling at all. Lucas likewise said that only at the end did "Luke give up and really fight," meaning Luke wasn't "really fighting" prior. Other sources echo Luke primarily "held back" (1)	and "only struck back in self-defense" (2)	whereas Vader "pressed the attack at every turn," (1)	"seemingly did not hold any reluctance at the clash," (3)	"brutally, aggressively brought his full strength and power against the younger man," (4)	felt "bald anger" and "wanted revenge," (5)	and said, "I can't let Luke defeat me. I won't let the Emperor have him" (6)	. Yet a restrained Luke still stonewalled Vader's attacks, made him tired, then kicked him away (7)	.
George Lucas, Star Wars Episode VI - Return of the Jedi DVD commentary wrote: The key issue in these movies is for a Jedi not to use anger while he's fighting. So the final confrontation here is primarily about trying to make Luke become angry, so that when he's fighting his father he's fighting with anger and, therefore, begins to use the dark side of the Force. But in The Empire Strikes, we had them confront each other and fight together. But, in this one, Luke is much more mature, so he knows that he shouldn't be fighting him - that is the path to the dark side. It's a confrontation between two people. One of them doesn't want to fight. The other one keeps trying to push him into it. And then in the end, when he gives up finally and really fights, what's happened there ultimately is that Luke is turning to the dark side and going to be lost.
I have no idea what you're trying to prove with the quote from The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader as Luke was still fueled by hate there as per Anakin Skywalker: The Story of Darth Vader.
The line from The Story of Darth Vader is irrelevant because I have no reason to care for the beliefs of a New Republic historian that even you found baffling (link)	, and Luke held back anyway.
Imagine being so conceited you put your egregiously wrong interpretation of a feat above over a dozen statements saying you're wrong. You didn't even try to refute my point that Fightsaber explicitly put standard ROTJ Luke with Vader (link)	despite your claim that, "Absolutely nothing there states Luke gained powers that equaled his father's through personal growth." And Beware of the Sith and Jedi Battles likewise state Luke and Vader were evenly matched but "this battle was more than just physical strength and Force powers" and "their duels are more than just about physical strength," thereby recognizing both their starting conditions as equals and the complex emotions of the duel.
Lucas stated Palpatine could one-shot Luke. Given you clearly have no actual rebuttal to Luke and Vader being equals, Palpatine should be able to do the same to Vader:
George Lucas, The Making of Return of the Jedi wrote: Vader also knows that the Emperor is toying with Luke. He has been told by the Emperor, 'When he starts to strike me, you're going to have to take him out.' If Vader doesn't block Luke's lazer sword, the Emperor could just raise his hand and that would be the end of it. Then Vader would be in trouble: "Lord Vader, what happened to you? Did you not get your cue?"
Yes, Luke "is able to hold up against" Darth Vader "at the height of his powers"while Vader is toying with him (link)	- there is no actual relativity between an all-out Vader and Luke as of The Empire Strikes Back. If you're gonna use a retcon as an argument, then so can I.
Your quote only refers to the start of the fight. Vader admitted in Shadows of the Empire that while "he had certainly attempted to defeat Luke, the boy had held his own":
Darth Vader, Shadows of the Empire wrote: When they fought, he had also tried to strike the boy down, but that had been merely a test. Had he been able to kill Luke easily, Luke would not have been worth the effort to recruit. But although he had certainly attempted to defeat Luke, the boy had held his own. Despite Vader's superior skill, despite his experience, Luke had survived with no more damage than an easily repaired amputated hand. The meeting had made Vader feel, not a normal occurrence lately. There had been the thrill at meeting a worthy opponent and pride that the one so strongly opposing him was his own son.
Given Vader's "astonishment" over ROTJ Luke's growth, it's easy to see how Luke became his equal.
If you're "much more powerful" than someone, then you're not rivals or comparable. If a quote said, "Vader was much more powerful than Revan," don't act like you'd agree if I responded with, "All that means is that the gap isn't miniscule."
Vader witnessing Luke's strength first-hand means nothing. His designs on Luke didn't change at all from what they were in The Empire Strikes Back.
Except they did. Vader didn't plan to bring Luke before Palpatine in ESB, but Vader didn't have a choice in ROTJ given Palpatine's active hand and "omniscience"—so much so Vader "no longer dared to entertain thoughts of rebellion" (VUG). However, after meeting Luke on Endor, Vader formed a revised plan. Per Lucas, "Instead of Vader turning Luke to the dark side, maybe the Emperor can. Vader doesn't care who does it because then father and son can unite" (MOROTJ).
(Fun fact: The ESB adult novel states Vader was "trembling" and "terrified" to talk to the Emperor, and he spoke to him like "a priest attending his god" (8)	)
If he truly believed the Emperor to be "omniscient" he would have thought his Master would have sensed his rebellious intentions when he is thinking them aloud right next to him. Instead he is perfectly comfortable plotting a coup without fear of being killed by the Emperor.
Except Vader knew that Palpatine knew he was plotting a coup—Palpatine even sensed Vader day-dreaming about killing him with Luke (9)	. Vader wasn't fearful for his life because he knew that Palpatine didn't consider him and Luke a current threat (10)	.
I never disagreed that the quote meant Vader posed a threat because "of his power in the Force." That doesn't mean Vader's threat would materialize in a fight. Vader stated Palpatine would be apathetic to fighting him and Luke combined (10)	, and Lucas said Palpatine could one-shot Vader's equal. The "bad enough" quote is prefaced with "All of those he taught, human or alien, were only taught enough to fulfill Palpatine's wishes. He didn't want any of them rising up against him" for a reason. It's "bad enough" Vader was a super strong Force user constantly around him, let alone all the other adepts lurking nearby.
If it's "odd" to use the literal dictionary definition of "solely" (link)	i.e. appealing to the English language in your opinion, that's not my problem. You seemed to make to liberal use of the same tactic in your Ziost argument, though, so it's ironic you'd disparage me for doing the same.
Except I'm also using the dictionary definition; you're just using it wrong. Why Vader did lift Palpatine? The act, in and of itself, did not kill Palpatine, but it was necessary to achieve his death. Likewise, if a Force barrier was necessary to achieve his death—as in, otherwise, Vader would have failed and died—then Vader would have used a Force barrier. It is baseless to claim "it was solely a physical feat."
It's more complicated than that. Vader's cybernetics were more vulnerable than the human body, but his insulation protected said cybernetics (11)	. Moreover, Vader had fabrics and systems that mitigated and released heat (12)	whereas novel Revan collapsed (link)	and Darth Nyriss disintegrated (link)	because of the heat effects. Thus, Vader's suit offered more immediate protection to lightning in exchange for far worse long-term effects compared to humans. And while Hidalgo said the greatest difference between Palpatine's lightning on Luke versus Vader was the cybernetics—not lightning potency—it's still true Vader's body was "mortally wounded" (13-17)	, meaning he would have died naturally even despite the suit failure.
And unlike against Luke, Palpatine lost control of his power—"The Emperor's struck out at him wildly. Energy bolts shot from his hands, but they went out of control. The white lightning struck Darth Vader, flowing down over his black cape like rain." (ROTJSB)—and struck himself as well—"The deadly blue lightning fell away from Luke and arced back from the Emperor's fingertips and crashed down upon the Sith Lords." (LAL) / "As Palpatine disappeared into the abyss below, Force lightning crackled around and through his body." (EGC) So, Palpatine's lightning wasn't concentrated against Vader.
If your body is physically fatigued or damage, then your body is "weakened." Yoda, for instance, had a terribly frail body yet, through the Force, became incredibly powerful. Vader "focusing his every fiber of being on this one, concentrated act" across the span of "minutes" and having "super energy" captures the same idea.
Insider 101 states, "At most times, and particularly in his weakened state, Vader wouldn't have stood a chance against" Palpatine. Vader normally wouldn't hold a candle to Palpatine, and the source specifies Vader's weakened condition that you've been raving about. Insider continues, "but the light side of the Force gives him the strength he needs," meaning Vader's dramatically amped relative to not just his "weakened state" but his standard. Thus, every argument I've made on this subject is true, and your fallacious core argument has shown there's no way to scale Vader off Palpatine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rukjuMJFPI
--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- ---
THE KAVANAUGH HEARINGS
"I categorically and unequivocally deny the allegation against me by Dr. Ford."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INCSBwpJBQk
Azronger desperately flung erroneous accusations against me. Not only were they false, but he committed countless false equivalencies in the act. Ironic. Furthermore, it's not a strawman if I didn't respond to every individual point. Let the merit of each discussion be judged as it stands. Every point doesn't have to go back and forth forever.
I never said Revan didn't use the Force whatsoever. I said Revan couldn't have "actively used the Force," e.g. Force barrier, tutaminis, etc, if he was "unable" to tangibly act. I concluded Revan must've instead "absorbed all the attacks through sheer force of will" like Darth Sion.
DarthAnt66 has forbidden me from rescinding my points when it benefits Revan, but he himself literally edits his post (link)	so he wouldn't look bad.
I edited my post within an hour of publication to clarify one line, and I even notified you on Google Hangouts about the edit. I said there was "no going back" for you given your entire argument revolves around the point. You'd have to concede, argue against your conceded point, then create a new point in your final post.
It's not my job to play devil's advocate against my own argument, nor emphasize every aid and handicap a character may have ever. And I don't think a nexus' relevance is the same in every context.
Except my argument wasn't contingent on the trailer. I merely used the trailer to show my argument's consistency across the board—that even the trailer backs what I'm saying. In contrast, you built your entire case by stitching together your favorite parts of irreconcilable sources while ignoring swaths of "the primary source material."
DarthAnt66 claims a ritual is required to resuscitate a spirit to make an excuse for Revan using the Temple of Sacrifice - "a device for mass ritual sacrifice" "capable of killing every living thing on this moon, as fuel for the Emperor's resurrection" (link)	- instead of just liquidating the biosphere with a snap of his fingers, but argues the Ziost feat isn't a ritual despite it being designed to "replenish" Vitiate and he was in fact "revitalized after annihilating all life on Ziost," "grew stronger," and experienced a "rebirth" (link)	…
Except Vitiate wasn't trying to resurrect to physical body on Ziost whereas both Revan explicitly wanted to "return him to a physical form" (link)	and extensive Sith alchemy is required to create a body for a Sith spirit (link)	.
No rule said, "Ignore all context surrounding a quote," which is why I lambasted you.
The rules state, "The opinion of authors have no validity and cannot be used unless they are explicitly accepted into the continuity." I consider the official Star Wars magazine inquiring into and publishing the developer's comments as being "accepted into the continuity." You're welcome to dispute that idea, but that's not a double-standard.
DarthAnt66 argues Starkiller would have lost because he was distracted by a vision, but ignores the fact that Darth Vader's lightning-stiffened prosthetics immobilized him, which amounted to "a distraction" that "lasted only a moment" (link)	and claims his loss was legitimate…
Vader's cybernetics were a permanent limitation whereas Starkiller's random Force vision was a freak occurrence.
Already addressed.
"Raw energy exploding out of you and electrical energy coursing into you aren't the same. The former demanded willpower since you can't use a barrier, tutaminis, etc. on an attack already within you. The latter's threat was diminished by Vader's insulation and powers. What'd you have to prove is that the remaining lightning would have otherwise been strong enough to kill Vader had he not held himself together (which you can't)."
DarthAnt66 uses an entirely in-universe source written before any of The Old Republic's expansions like The Old Republic Encyclopedia (link)	in an argument that favors Revan, but thinks such sources "cannot be treated as canonical fact and are not necessarily reliable" in arguments that favor Darth Vader…
"My stance was that in-universe sources contingent on the explicitly limited knowledge of historians shouldn't be peddled as binding (link)	. However, a source can be both in-universe and omniscient, such as The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia: "The in-fantasy conceit of this one is that it has been compiled by some omniscient committee of historians and scholars taking a look back over tens of thousands of years of galactic history. The author/editor is solely responsible for any errors of fact or interpretation." It's clear The Old Republic Encyclopedia works the same way. (And that's not rare. Any source that writes "X happened Y years ago" is in-universe.) No mortal being or group could simultaneously know the activities of Sith spirits like Kallig, the inner workings of Republic and Imperial Intelligence and the Emperor's Hand, and the origin stories of Vette and Mako all by 3641 BBY."
I dismissed Luke's speculation on Vader's thoughts when it directly contradicted omniscient sources. I endorsed Vader's comparison of his powers to Palpatine's given his intimate knowledge on the subject matter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eFVkm7YyB0&t=5m56s
I separated the quote from my argument and said I'm only sharing it because of "how amusing it is" to see Hamill say "there's no question anymore that I'm [Vader's] equal or better."
That's what your post insinuates (link)	. If that's somehow not what you meant, that's still not a strawman on my end since it wasn't intentional.
A rebuttal wasn't needed. Your point addressed an aside, not the main argument (link)	.
"Vader's feelings of power and mastery intensified in Palpatine's presence—"Vader's pulse and breathing were machine-regulated, so they could not quicken; but something in his chest became more electric around his meetings with the Emperor; he could not say how. A feeling of fullness, of power, of dark and demon mastery - of secret lusts, unrestrained passion, wild submission - all these things were in Vader's heart as he neared his Emperor. These things and more" (ROTJAN)—and Vader's power "resonated" with Palpatine's own—"His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. He felt engorged with this power; it surged like black fire, demon electrons looking for ground" (ROTJAN). So, Vader's explicitly neither a reliable narrator nor at his normal power in the scene."
And given I responded to every other quote, it's clear I didn't intentionally ignore it.
My rebuttal encompassed the four quotes. MFV had more power than Anakin but couldn't effectively use that power due to his volatile and clouded psyche.
You ignored my Dessel example. If an utter ignoramus regarding the Force has all his fatigue erased upon feeling intense rage, then obviously it doesn't require any special Force technique. Anger making oneself more powerful is literally one of the central narratives in all of Star Wars (we don't even need to look at Star Wars; this is a thing in real life too (link)	); it's a quicker path to power and the reason why so many find the dark side alluring and more powerful. Why would the Sith even feel the need to be angry 24/7 if there were no benefits?
Physical fatigue isn't Force fatigue, and that was more of an adrenaline rush anyway.
Also, you're not just arguing anger gave Starkiller benefits—you're arguing his Force reserves were instantaneously replenished from 0 to 100, something that has never been replicated before. See the difference?
It's not a stretch to assume that Starkiller would be amped when losing Juno to Boba Fett sent him into a Force Rage earlier (link)	.
The fact Starkiller didn't enter Force rage against Boba Fett aside, Starkiller told himself before and during the Vader fight he wouldn't give into his anger.
I never argued they're equally powerful.
You should have clarified your argument. The quotes I posted (e.g. "My sense of the relationship is that the Emperor is much more powerful than Vader and that Vader is very much intimidated by him" (MOROTJ) / "By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known" (VUG), etc.) still refute your idea of them being "rivals" regardless.
There's more that goes into combative formidability than Force power, namely lightsaber prowess, which Vader had in excess of Jedi Anakin Skywalker a year later, meaning Vader would have to be quite close by The Empire Strikes Back, while the Emperor remained on the level of Yoda and Mace Windu, which is beneath Anakin's level (link)	. If Vader is the Emperor's rival in Force power and superior in lightsaber dueling, it's perfectly reasonable they would be "equally formidable" in combat.
Vader's not "the Emperor's rival in Force power" nor his "superior in lightsaber dueling," as covered previously, so that take doesn't fly.
That interpretation makes more sense than yours, since the Emperor is explicitly not a "living embodiment of fear" but "beloved" and enjoying "the support of the ignorant masses," many of whom "distrusted the concept of an emperor, yet trusted Palpatine," and "regard Palpatine as a demigod" (link)	.
Galactic Files is out-of-universe, and Palpatine and Vader are the ultimate embodiments of evil to the reader. Besides, "formidable" also means "inspiring respect," so there's no contradiction.
I have not argued that.
I said, "You have somehow tried to establish a connection between Vader not being a reality-warper and Vader not using a Force barrier against the Emperor, despite failing to articulate how they interrelate whatsoever."
You said, "According to your very own word, Darth Vader's will doesn't dictate reality. Therefore, him "focusing solely and sightlessly on his will" "to defeat the evil embodied in the Emperor" doesn't mean any reality-warping was done in the vein of Anakin Skywalker willing Count Dooku to lose as the Revenge of the Sith novelization described it. It was solely a physical feat, and thus all of Vader's gathered Force energy would have gone into physical augmentation."
So, I captured your point perfectly.
I don't know what "speaking in the context of your argument" even means, but it's not a fallacy to take your line—"you have no way to ascertain whether him accumulating his power would place him above his natural strength or not"—to mean what it says.
Your argument was contingent on multiple false premises (e.g. Vader being weakened, only using his passive defenses, etc.).
"The great Darth Vader was a sick man in an iron mask!"
I'll leave my conclusion for the final post. For now…
"I won't be denied my destiny. I am Revan!"
DES | Dark Empire Sourcebook
EGC | The Essential Guide to Characters
KOTOR 2 | Knights of the Old Republic II
LAL | The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi
MOROTJ | Making of Return of the Jedi
MOROTS | Making of Revenge of the Sith
R | The Old Republic - Revan
RAFODV | The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader
RODV | Dark Lord - The Rise of Darth Vader
ROTJAN | Return of the Jedi adult novelization
ROTJSB | Return of the Jedi storybook
ROTSAN | Revenge of the Sith adult novelization
TFU2VG | The Force Unleashed II video game
UAS | Unleashed - Anakin Skywalker statue
VUG | Vader - The Ultimate Guide
Special thanks to @Quorian Debatist and @Jake for some quotes.
on October 22nd 2019, 5:02 pm
THE FINISHER
I don't want anyone to think that just because Ant got the last word that he won. Yes, he posted new evidence which seemingly debunks my claims - and I want to emphasize that word, because it only seems that way as I can't address it within the confines of this debate. This does not mean I conceded anything or that my arguments are debunked. Posting hitherto unveiled sources doesn't make his post inherently superior or mean his debating talents are greater; it means he did some research, and that's it.
In fact, in making these new points, he dropped a great number of his old ones, and he totally ignored my point about Galen's cannon feat being his applicable power. Ant conceded my point about Revan needing two amps and charging his power for 125 seconds to damage life in a 1km radius, so that makes him an utter gnat in comparison to Galen. Vader fights Galen as an equal, so that means he could stomp Revan effortlessly. Since Ant's rebuttals to these points sucked, it counts as a concession for this entire debate since the argument directly proves Vader > Revan by a massive degree.
Not to mention he committed a massive amount of fallacies and made other concessions, too, far more so than me, so I clearly debated better.
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on December 30th 2019, 1:26 am
Bump for new members who never read my final post or Azronger's finisher. Sorry for the late delay on the finisher (forgot about it), but I'll do it this winter break.
on January 28th 2020, 6:43 am
@DarthAnt66 Did you forget about this?
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