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Stop-Scammers.com Forum > All about dating scammers > Scam or not? > psychobabbling
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After some initial doubt, I've for several reasons decided to start this topic. Most likely it will die a silent and unmourned death. We shall see.
First I want myself and the closet-sextourists to get out of each others' hair. I can't abide the fourletter words, the bad spelling, braggings and "I almost made it" stories, spiced with expressions like "hot babes" etc. On the other hand the !!!!WOW!!! types do not like words with many syl-lab-les, so here such is concentrated in one place, which they can avoid. In other words, the contributers to this topic can, without interference, bore each other to death, if we wish to.
Next: Having a soft spot for conspiracy theories I'm convinced, that not only anti-scammers read anti-scam sites, a lot of other groups do it also. The scammers themselves, agency representatives, ultrafeminists (just-hating-men-on-general-principles), chatters (having nothing to say, but doing it with many words) and those just curious. The possibilty of disinformation is real, but maybe it's possible to suppress it by being longwinded and circumstantial.
And last, the most important. Internet-dating is after all only one aspect of the the eternal "war of the sexes". To understand net-dating, I believe it's necessary to paint a broader background canvas. Say, are we just a bunch of grumpy querulants or is there really a difference between not being able to get along with your next-door childhood love and a FSUW? Where and what is the difference? Even without a computer, a different cultural background or alcoholism, Sue-Ellen could still be a conartist or pro-dater. Especially if she's good-looking.
I'm not completely sceptical about FSU dating (internet or not). In the last app. 18 years I've had three longer relationships (in the biblical sense) with SFUW, lasting alltogether 14 years. These relationships broke up for the same personal reasons, as any other relationships do. And I've had my share of scandinavian psychos. For me the question is the PROBABILITY of meeting "straights" or "bends" in each group.
So I invite for wievs on this. And I have a few proposals for background-basics:
I believe, that we like all other animals fundamentally are biological robots. We have a digestive system with two openings, a need to reproduce and to fight for a place in a predatory system. That's our startingpoint. But compared to other animals, we also have rather complex emotions and intellect. We have a possibility, individually or culturally, to be more than just reptile-brained. And different individuals/cultures/subcultures use this possibility in various degrees.
And I also suggest to sort out the differences between women and men. For the present bunch of probably half-machos it's maybe an idiotic question. But believe me, in this time of unisex, feminism, equal opportunities and so on, the issue has seriously, repeatedly and heatedly been raised, if there IS any difference (in spite of different plumbing and men's inability to get pregnant). I strongly support the idea, that women and men are almost different species, and as in any other contact with ETs, we need a lot of diplomacy to establish peaceful contact.
quote: reptile-brained
most men actlike that anyways.
I watched documentaries in which skull endocasts of ferocious dinosaur predator Allosaurus were examined to determine how it would hunt, how discerning it was and whether it was more like crocodiles (attack immediately & eat whatever smells right ) and birds ( giant birds are quite picky ).
Endocasts showed the dinosaur's brain was much like a crocodile's...much of the brain devoted to harvesting sensory information, but little brain areas devoted to process information.
Men are much the same...that is why all those profiles of scantly dressed young beauty queens fuel a multi-millionaire industry based mostly on nothing.
I can buy a ?3,99 computer mouse and that'll be the lowest performing, cheapest made mouse ever, but it's still something.
I can spend ?399,99 or 3999,99 on WWW/LD dating sites and ancillary services ( domestic or MOB makes no difference ) and be left with nothing but delusion and empty fantasies.
Phone sex lines come to mind.
Yes, you are talking dirty to a soft, slutty female voice glad to share your ultimate wishes, but for all you know she might be 67yo and looking like aunt Jemima; you know you are going nowhere, but go nowhere at ?3,99/minute +VAT.
A difference might exist for the "get laid tonight" kind of men joining a local metro area dating site for the sole purpose of one-night-stands...there expectations (thus chance of trouble ) are cut to the bone...meet in a neutral place, have sex in a motel and things like that...his four undisclosed kids and her psychological illness may have no bearing.
Psychology is there...ignore at your expenses.
Ham, you're right. Though I think, that women have reptile-reflexes also.
In societies with a certain level of technology many of the PHYSICAL reptile instincts are obsolete, but the psychological part will still exist, making a travesty of rational behaviour. With men this often manifests as playing alpha-male baboons, allegorically showing rumps or chestbeating, whereas the females (because of the offspring-caring instincts) will be interested in safety and shelter, and also in the protective interest of the dominant male(s). This means stability and hoarding for the females, opposite the males roving around without a care (apart from mating as much as possible).
With "modern" man money- or powergrabbing shows his value as a mate.
With "modern" women, this reptile-reflex shows in a completely unnecessary/beyond-actual-needs attitude towards hoarding. And my personal opinion/experience is, that this syndrome is especially and grotesquely pronounced in FSUW. They really believe, that everybody in the west has the famous swimmingpool etc., and they
(the FSUW) can get a piece of the cake by promises of/or actually putting themselves in horizontal (or more advanced) positions periodically.
Ofcourse this conflict of interests has existed as long as biological life, but in FSU it's out of proportion. The residues of reptile instincts are DOMINATING their culture, putting a lot of more important issues aside. Before they can start producing their own consumers goods, they must learn to cooperate as a group, and with a one-man-upship philosophy, this is difficult.
Admittedly the same phenomenon also exists in the west, but we have in some miraculous way brought it down to a level, where it won't collapse our societies. Maybe because we didn't get the technological blessings served on a silver plate, but had to learn slowly. In ALL contacts between technological/non-technological societies the later crumbles in a generation or two, because everyone wants a transistor-radio (or whatever), preferably yesterday.
So maybe the western reptile male and the reptile FSUW are equally dumb or primitive, but their motives are so different, that any pretense of real communication can only be on a strict "deal" basis. I pay, you deliever.
As always I talk about probabilities. There are never any absolutes.
PeopleSmoks
swede and ham, I hope you don't mind me sitting in with you intellectuals, but I also get my fill of some of the low-brows, oracles, sex-tourists etc. Although my vocabulary may not be up to your level, I believe my thoughts are.
swede, your suspicions that this and similar sites are visited, if not monitored, by others are well founded. I can't say much about the ultrafeminists, etc, but as for scammers, more than likely, and agencies, definitely. A gentleman claiming to be the manager or owner of an FSU dating site actually engaged in one of the forums and I'm sure there have been others. I say let them look. Collectively, we are much brighter than they are, as long as we keep our wits when venturing into the FSU/MOB world.
I ventured into the FSU/MOB world through a bizarre twist, and became infatuated by the stories, thus chose to persue a "real" relationship in this theatre, not knowing the pitfalls when I made that faithful decision. Like you, I have just as much of a distain for the sex-tourists as the scam artists. My trip to Ukraine is to spend a week with one girl, and only one, with the hope that we will find we really have something special that can only be realized by such a meeting.
I am honest with myself concerning this meeting. I am trying to understand the cultural differences as best I can. The fact will always remain that it is a woman that I am meeting, and unlike some, I make no claims to be able to figure out the mindset of a woman.
As ham has said on several occasions, FSUW's are from another country, not another planet. I understand your point, but as swede stated, men and women regardless of what country they are native to, are almost like two different species. And when I say that it's as though men and women are from different planets, it's merely a metaphorical stretch to emphasize my point about the differences between the sexes, not only the physical aspects, but the mental and emotional.
I've had several long relationships. Two lasted six years each and the last was over seven years living together. I still cannot figure out what motivated her to do the self-destructive things she did?
But as for basic brain chemistry in the majority of the population, it does appear to still be rooted in the more primal instincts. Men strive to become the alpha male in order to attract the most desireable mate. Women seek the security and protection that such a mate can provide her and any offspring they may produce.
The physical differences also are rooted in primal necessity. Men are designed to be physically stronger to be provider and protector, right down to the circulatory system. In a program I watched maybe a year ago, it was shown how blood flow through a man is intended to provide warmth to his extremities for the purpose of hunting and foraging in colder weather, where as a woman will retain a great deal of her body heat around her torso which was presumed for the purpose of keeping an unborn child warm.
People have certainly changed in appearance a great deal since the days of the neanderthal, but all of the basic genetic code still remains. Now, what I see as the great challenge to FSUW's is the basic mental and emotional differences between men and women, coupled with a generation of women coming out of the represive Soviet era and discovering technologies that were commonplace for western women for years if not decades.
Now a place for the low-brow thinking would be to ponder what effect does western TV have on the mentality of these women from the FSU? Imagine, this is their first glimpse of what life is like in the US and other western countries, and yes, every American has a swimming pool in their backyard. Decades of social isolation as lead to today's childlike fantasy veiw of the west, which will sooner or later have to be tempered by reality. Yet these women still possess the basic instict of their primal ancestors to seek out what they believe will be the most satisfactory mate, who will be a provider and protector and it is undestandable to some degree that they might associate material things with success, just as their western counterparts.
Were it only a matter of transversing the social, cultural, idealistic and basic nature of a woman, FSU/MOB dating and/ or finding a wife in earnest, would be comparatively easy, or at worst just a little more difficult than such a search in one's own backyard. Unfortunately, the scam artists had to also add one more obstacle to the mix. I hope my thoughts have been enough to bore you gentlemen sufficiently despite my notable?inadequacy in the use of eight syllable words during my dissertation. ??
Train returns
PeopleS,
I just love your humour. If I didn't know better, I would have thought you english. You are truly in class with Mark Twain, W.C.Fields and Thorne Smith. Cit.: " ........to bore you gentlemen sufficiently despite my notable inadequacy in the use of eight syllable words during my dissertation......" In spite of their many shortcomings, FSU people have in general a fabulous sense of humour, and with your convoluted, chinese-box like talent for black humour, you will be a great success amongst the english speaking. I promise.
Yes, I remember this agency guy from one of the tracks here and I have seen others on other anti-scam sites. The feminist groups do exist, actually one of the most vicious was centered here in Sweden, and some years ago they went out with the message, that all the postulated scammers were only innocent victims of male-pig-chauvinistic-sexist abuse. I read something to the same effect in the english-edited newspaper maybe called "Ukrainian Times".
I hope, I will not be offensive, if I say that american men (present company excluded) often show signs of acute supply-panic concerning sex. Maybe this explains the sextourist's rudeness, which he mistakenly believe is straightforwardness, and the arrogance he believes is rugged individualism, John Wayne style. He will get the surprise of his life getting east the first time. Judging from the people I met in Sevastopol on my three months' stay there, the men are mentally like graceful panthers, being able to out"cool" the best discoteque-champion, and the small, very, very family-minded and chaste I-wil-love-you-forever women are oozing sex like a one-woman mobile bordello. The average american man will be measured, weighted, flayed and hooked in ten minutes.
I, being just a simpleminded countryside bumpkin, used to tumble the gals in haystacks (such as we scandinavians in our innocent and unsophisticated ways do), was fortunately never really involved in those games. On my part because I couldn't find any haystacks, on the female part probably because the remaining scandinavian straw in my hair distracted her. (Hope you give me some artistic license).
Concerning the entertaining industry, as on TV, I noticed that in spite of the VERY high level of education most of my girlfriends had, they would literally glue themselves to the box for hours, especially at soap-opera time. Slowly turning their brains into pink candyfloss, as I have mentioned elsewhere.
quote: They really believe, that everybody in the west has the famous swimmingpool etc.
about half of Italy's big cities in the south are LITERALLY BURIED IN UNCOLLECTED TRASH; the army was dispatched to solve the problem. Billions are poured over the parasitic south (America has Africans, Mexico has Indios, we have our share of pretty faces [xx(] of inbred African, albanian or middle eastern origin ): would YOU consider THAT optimal to live in?
Think the New Orleans scene and minority ghettos in the USA, minority ghettos in France (um...taking up half the city ) morphinginto war zone Liberia-style twice a year... would YOU consider THAT optimal to live in?
No, but TV trash fosters this candy image made of dr. Kildare, big brother voyeuristic and exhibitionistic shows, big cars, swimming pools and hand-picked parasitic minorities' "role models".
However, it is pathetically true that say East Germans or Albanians had this idea the west was "just like" the trash they watched on TV, ignoring western economies are collapsing and every gadget is bought by tens of monthly installments.
"Never try to impress a woman or
she'll always hold you to that standard."
-W.C. Fields
that is why most MOB relationships are doomed: she expects dr.Kildare or Bobby Ewing or Jarod Barclay rolling high or whatever dung they are televising where you are; instead, she gets poor old Barney who works as bank teller clerk, middle school teacher or operates a small burger joint staffed with three illegal aliens from Punjab wearing a turban.
True, he bragged a bit and told her he owned "several restaurants" and it's equally true during his fortnight vacation champagne at an expensive highfalutin eatery was common occurrence; he was indeed "rolling high", or so it seemed, for he had been scraping cents for three years and even withdrawn from his retirement account.
Barney knows that, but won't tell; he has to win the rat race with profiles next to him, belonging to Forbes magazine cover models, wall street kingpins, the guy who ransacked the emmy awards night, that bloke who won three oscars, another who performed the first allodermic anal graft from a rhesus monkey onto a homosexual farmer in Iowa and boy oh boy, it's nobel prize time...
[:0][:o)][xx(]
Natasha is in for a big surprise, all the more as her soap opera idols do not look affected by such minutiae as credit ratings, poor business, debt schemes...they always flash their flawless colgate smile towards the camera raising a toast with Cabernet 1956 or some such James Bond posh drink worth $500 the bottle.
Natasha herself got some dental problems and Barney will be called to foot the bills...in excess of ?6.000...Barney is overclocking already, for he spent ?20.000 to bring her here already...visas, language lessons, blahblah...
Natasha feels increasingly frustrated; not only Barney isn't Jarod Barclay rolling high, but seems a completely different person from the buoyant, affluent, carefree gentleman she met at a social...she can't understand why his hands are shaking while he reads the phone bill; true, she made a few long distance calls home and true, maybe a couple too many, but if a $300 phone bill is a problem, then Barney must be a loser.
As well, she wanted to start sur-le-champ a nice plastic arts degree at some brick&mortar fancy college, for her compatriot Nadia studies there (she married a 67yo businessman ) and told her about local hunks; yet Barney sweated cold reading the "fees" pages of said college.
When she maxed Barney's credit card out the third time, Barney threw a temper tantrum and started yelling at her in Tamil...he might be a dangerous sociopath, so she is spending more time with a hirsute woman working with the local battered women's shelter, who tells her she must protect herself now.
What's cooking, Barney?
quote:"Never try to impress a woman or she'll always hold you to that standard." -W.C. Fields
Truer words are seldom spoken Ham. Can't believe I have not heard that one before, but I have certainly lived its consequences.
Ham,
every single word you are saying is true. But when it comes to having a gloomy, cynical and critical view of human life, I probably beat you with a few horselengths.
Are you familiar with the movie "Matrix"? In one scene the renegade computerprogram "agent Smith" compares humanity to a virus. An organism with so little survival skills, that it will die together with the host, it has parasited on. In spite of that agent Smith is supposed to be one of the bad guys, I wholeheartedly agree with his conclusions. It wouldn't be a great loss for the universe, if the human race made an end to itself, before it has killed its host.
The universe (if we can judge from our own surroundings) is probably predatory. And every time you believe, that you evolutionary have reached a safe harbour, you will find, that your competitors have evolved too. Back to the fight.
We have to a high degree "technologized" ourselves out of the need for basic, physical survival skills. But as we seem to agree, the psychological drive for reptile behaviour hasn't disappeared. Apart from the FSU obsession about being on the sunny side of the street, we will see the same syndrom expressed in the owners of multinational companies, political powergroups, religious organisations etc, only at an enormously expanded scale. And as Donovan once said: "How much can one man possibly need?"........ How many houses do you need? How much food can you eat? How many women can you bed? It's absurd, like an existential mental illness.
Sorry if I sound like a doomsday prophet with flaming eyes. I'm not. I'm only being circumstantial as usual. What I am trying to demonstrate is, that human society suffer from GREED, the twisted residue of reptile psychology. And where the physical reptile behaviour can be said to represent pure survival instincts, greed is an abomination.
I do not have the cosmic "snake oil" remedy for this collective madness of greed, only the hope that we will learn to use our other faculties, emotion and intellect, to counter the reptilemind, before it's to late. Not according to some higher ethical principles, but by being utilitarian. And that's inside the scope of every single individual.
But I do have an opinion about how to react to scammers. As PeopleS has said, he will go there with minimum expectations. He will go without "greed", this way he can't be hurt very much. We can not stop con-artists, they have existed always. But we can prepare ourselves to meet them.
The W.C. Fields sistuation is very useful. When I cyberdated, I always understated my situation.
quote:I just love your humour. If I didn't know better, I would have thought you english. You are truly in class with Mark Twain, W.C.Fields and Thorne Smith.
swede, you flatter me sir.
I think that part of the excessively excitable American male libido comes from a number of things. First you have the historic success story of the nation as a whole. In the two hundred plus years of existence, this country has produced some pretty remarkable people and invetions, not to slight our often questioned military might.
There is a competitiveness between American males that may be difficult for Europeans to comprehend. We feel a necessity to be the brightest and the best at everything. Name any subject, and there is an American somewhere who is working diligently to be the best at it.
This enthusiasm and simple desire to be the best, naturally spills over into the realm of sexual prowess. Let's take a step back to the discussion about instictive behaviors. Couple the instinct of all males to seek a mate, realizing that mating means having sex, with an overblown American, "we must be the best" attitude, and you have your answer.
As with anything, there will always be those who will take anything to the furthest boundaries, and often it is an American.
Now, not to bash my fellow countrymen too much, there are also many other nationalities who display such behavior. Italians are notorious for their sexual exploits, if not bragging about them. Sorry ham, but perhaps you can shed some light on this regarding your countrymen as I have tried to do with mine?
ham, all industrialized nations have their "less fortunate" areas. It's unavoidable, unless communism was to actually work in it's purest idealistic form as scribed by Lenin. There will always be the "haves" and the "have nots", regardless of race. And even within the subculture of "have nots", all of the things discussed apply on some level.
To risk venturing toward the low-brow once again to make a point, I ask if you guys are familiar with the TV show Star Trek? Amongst the sci-fi backdrop, many serious social issues were actually plot subjects, but weren't realized as such because of the shows genre.
The first interacial kiss ever televised in the US, was when Capt. Kirk, a white man, kissed Lt. Uhura, a black woman. Granted, it was under alien influence, but it happened. Predudice... a man who was black on the right and white on the left, hated a man because he was black on the left. Poverty, injustice, the list of socio-economic issues this program covered between the fluff goes on and on, not to mention the technological aspect of the show. They had flip-phones, desk top computers, when computers were big enough to fill a small home, no poverty, and yet, the hero was a womanizer!!!
You simply can't run from the human genome!
quote:Are you familiar with the movie "Matrix"? In one scene the renegade computerprogram "agent Smith" compares humanity to a virus. An organism with so little survival skills, that it will die together with the host, it has parasited on. In spite of that agent Smith is supposed to be one of the bad guys, I wholeheartedly agree with his conclusions. It wouldn't be a great loss for the universe, if the human race made an end to itself, before it has killed its host.
swede, the thing here is the human desire to survive. Whether we kill ourselves is a matter of whether we stop thinking about ourselves, but our great-great grand children ten times over. We can't kill the planet. It's a big rock spinning around a bigger flaming ball of gas. It doesn't care what we do, because after mankind has polluted and plundered this world, it will keep on circling that flaming ball of gas without us. Would the loss of mankind be a great loss? Only a future that neither of us will see can answer that question, but I like to believe that mankind has it's place in the future.
On a lighter side, I also agree to never try to impress a woman. I usually try to let her see me unshaven and in my work clothes within the first month! If she sticks around... alrighty then!!!
Ahhhh,
I knew it. If someone just dared the first step out of the general caveman-grunting usually going for communication, the bright people would soon turn up. I know it is very politically un-correct thinking, the elitist idea that just because you have an IQ about 130 and the other guy 80, you are more intelligent than he is. But the 130 guy IS more intelligent, no matter what the equal opportunity freaks say. I must hasten to add, that being intelligent doesn't give anybody any special rights. Just as being pretty, goodhearted, practical or whatsoever doesn't. It simply means, that you are good at a certain kind of job or activity. (This is why I created this little corner, where we can drink whisky, smoke cigars and be wise).
The idea, that women and men are different, also doesn't mean that one or the other of the two species are "better" or "worse" than the other. Not until we find common ground for communication, finding something basic both parts believe is correct and start from there, can we really meet each other. And with the growing amount of junk being thrown around (from low-grade gadgets breaking down the day after the garantee runs out, to snake oils, soap operas and new-age ideas about how to change your life overnight), the brainwashing is steadily expanding. Making communication increasingly more difficult.
I believe, that the main parameter for dating (cyber or not) is the ability to communicate. Even with the most attractive lady in the world, sex would be quite uninteresting, if she behaved like a super de lux inflatable plastic doll (and a real plastic doll would be so much cheaper). Sex is THE most intensive communicationform known at the physical level. A woman unable to communicate is a valueless partner.
PeopleS, you gave a very good description of the american alpha male mentality. Correctly assuming, that we europeans sometimes have troubles understanding it.
Remember the Clinton/Lewinsky "scandal", close to bringing panic at the stockmarket. The russian president just laughed about the affair and said: "So what". It demonstrates the difference in especially american and russian thinking.
When I discovered, that my UA "fiance?" was a pro-dater, I offered her a choice. I said, that if she would admit to lying and cheating (not in writing ofcourse, just
over the phone, this not being legally binding), I would leave her in peace and forget about it. She simply couldn't make herself to do this, thereby risking my wrath, and the possible consequences it would have on her life. She had probably convinced herself, that she "hadn't done anything". The lying had turned inwards. The average american overgrown boyscout, with all his "medals" for good american behaviour, would have problems adjusting to this.
Being a sci-fi and fantasy fan I'm familiar with Star Trek, though not deeply. As with many other films a lot of ideologies, propaganda and/or information is sneaked into
them. Not mentioning the subliminal manipulation. But your example of prejudice is good, and examplifies my thesis, that the change necessary for real communication, must come as much from the "inside" of a person as from the outside. The willingness to understand, that YOUR personal worldwiev and "language" isn't the only one.
"Four legs good, two legs bad" syndrom (Georg Orwell: Animal farm). This isn't wishy-washy "all opinions are right", it just means that some prejudices are so much
bosh. It means that going blindly on your own tracks won't lead you anywhere.
Ofcourse I want the human dilemma to end happily. I won't be standing around at Harmageddon and say: "See what I told you" with glee.
quote: ham, all industrialized nations have their "less fortunate" areas.
too bad these "less fortunate" areas take up a large portion of the urban setting, not limited to the occasional dump place...
[:o)][B)][:0]
quote: The first interacial kiss ever televised in the US, was when Capt. Kirk, a white man, kissed Lt. Uhura, a black woman.
I am highly diffident of this american mentality for several reasons, but mainly because it is duplicitous:
1 they assembled a zoo in Star Trek, but russians were missing ( charachter Chekov was introduced later after protests from the russian world. Series authors, however, deny doing so. They say Chekov was not supposed to fill in the gap of a russian, but of a "beatles" kind of guy ). George Takei (Sulu) claimed that producers made clear no Japanese was to be allowed, so he -of Japanese descent- was to play some generic "pacific islander". Nichelle Nichols (Uhura) claimed that at some point she felt cheated and wanted to quit, but Luther King himself insisted about the importance of an African character (in the make-believe, Uhura is from "the united states of Africa" [xx(][xx(] ). Nichols said she felt ripped off, as producers had her shoot hours-long scenes, which -oh so mysteriously [:0][:o)] - fell down in the cutting room.
isn't this just duplicitous?
This said, i always say that a good crash course in American politics can be taken watching old wrestling videos and learning from Hulk Hogan's "real american" or Hacksaw Jim Duggan's gimmick against say Nikolai Volkoff (a croatian by descent ), or Iron Sheik or General Hadnan later.
quote:I know it is very politically un-correct thinking, the elitist idea that just because you have an IQ about 130 and the other guy 80, you are more intelligent than he is. But the 130 guy IS more intelligent, no matter what the equal opportunity freaks say.
I took many of these IQ tests and always scored like a baboon. Yes, it's right.
After all my (hopefully not too confused) preliminary psychobabbling, I think, I can boil everything down to a few essentials.
Almost every individual on this planet lives as a mental prisoner inside her/his own private belief-system, tunnelreality, dream-(scape). What people in general believe is communication, is usually an effort to "sell" your own dream to someone else.
A nation, a religion, a cultural group can have a kind of collective dream(scape). America has the collective dream of motherhood, applepie, swimmingpools and alpha males. FSUW "buy" this dream (especially the part about swimmingpools) and in return offer the dream of familyorientation, romance and sex.
Personally I believe, that you can't swap dreams this way. You can possibly synchronize them with some effort, or you can get lucky and meet someone with a dream similar to your own.
I usually lean on the citation: "What is left, after you have stopped believing in it, must be true". This is my startingpoint.
Thus my short career as existential philosopher has reached its culmination, and I will return to less lofty subjects, if you all aren't bored to death by now (can't say I would blame you).
Ham, you're doing very well with your baboon-score. Anyway the IQ tests are often dubious. I also have a very low IQ according to them, but nontheless I graduated from the scandinavian gymnasium-education (kind of highschool/college) which generally required a minimum of 128 IQ, and later spent 5 years at university. On the other hand, there are areas of life, where I am moronlike. F.ex. going to UA for a girlfriend.
quote: A nation, a religion, a cultural group can have a kind of collective dream(scape). America has the collective dream of motherhood, applepie, swimmingpools and alpha males. FSUW "buy" this dream (especially the part about swimmingpools) and in return offer the dream of familyorientation, romance and sex.
oftentimes it all is just a lie: he isn't a millionaire or whatever, and she isn't Joan of Arc or whatever.
In my opinion WWW-LD dating is the liars' and bluffers' paradise...all men in their 60s claim to look half their age, to be super studs who can breakdance all night; all women are former models with A+ value standards...
Barney, 58yo (outraged):
but Natasha, you told me you were a virgin saving herself for me!
Natasha, 22yo (soothing):
but Barney didn't i bleed for you?
what about this [shows her a screen capture on his computer in which she's doing it with an African guy ]? That is a "trip report from Sochi" by this African idiot Rufus from New Orleans!
N (angry):
well?! So what? Rufus played with my heart!
Hmm...so did this Kojiro from Osaka and Pedro from Tocula, eh?! How comes Pedro claims online you accepted $10.000 from him, then disappeared?
N:
Pedro had no teeth; at least you wore dentures: that is why i chose you!
After all you told me lies, too! You are not a millionaire as you told me: you are broke! [points to a pile of collection notices, repossession bills and court orders] And at the battered women's shelter i discovered you have five kids...you never told me that!
already 3 years ago, when I was active in anti-scam forums for a while, I met your name, and I share your idea, that spreading light on the subject is very important.
When I came back from UA at that time, I was a mental wreck, and I used this forum both as a cryingwall and as a source for information. And I got invaluable help (and sometimes made a fool of myself because of my naivity). What people like you and others have done to save western men and societies from problems is praiseworthy.
But now I also want to look at "dream-selling" as a general phenomenon, of which cyber-scamming is a special variety. I mean, there has been religions, political systems, better-yourself philosophies and general sellings of the Brooklyn bridge or Eiffeltower for untold years. All based on the same kind of unsubstantiated lies as cyber-scamming. And still people buy them.
My theory is, that humanity as a whole exponentially is loosing grasp on "reality" (what that really is, is ofcourse a complex question; but can we agree on getting food, safety and shelter, paying your bills in time etc as a workable definition for the majority?). The easier lives we get, the more empty we seem to be. And we try to fill the hollowness with "sawdust"; only making the problem worse.
I do not believe, we are born "empty". And I do not believe that the universe or the individual human being is ONLY a complicated clockwork. To a high degree yes, but we still have possibilities to make personal choices (no matter how small they are). Instead of using this option, most are leaning back and let themselves be engulfed in the various scams ranging from big brother indoctrination to the individual FSUW.
Sleepwalkers in all contries, unite (and wake up).
Hmmmm. Maybe I a have a future as a prophet.
I believe it was P.T. Barnum who said, "There's a sucker born every minute." This, unfortunately, is a very true statement. Scam artists are certainly not a new phenomenon incorperated into society since the development of the world wide web. People have been conning other people in one form or another, ever since Ugg the caveman reached behind Brap, tapping his opposite shoulder to make him look the other way, as Ugg stole Brap's chunk of mammoth flesh and pointed to the sky claiming a pterodactyl swooped down and took it.
Let's be honest. Being a scammer IS a high risk occupation. If caught, Ugg may have been thrown from the clan or worse. Today, if caught, scammers risk jail. However, internet scamming is a relatively low risk venture requiring no more than a basic computer and time. The low risk is that although jail is a real possibility, actual prosecution by a victum 8,000 km away is highly unlikely.
As IQ tests go, I've never bothered. At the age of seventeen, I did score a 98% on the US Navy's entrance exam. They wanted me for nuclear sub training. Now at the age of 44, not signing up remains one of my biggest regrets in life. I would have had twenty years in seven years ago and been eligible to have retired. Funny how the choices of a seventeen year old child can affect the life of a 44 yo adult.
Regarding the Star Trek "zoo", an old American sports philosophy fits best... "It's not how, but how many that counts in the end." How or why the diversity of the cast came to be is not as important as the fact that it was so diverse at a time when it simply wasn't done at all. Regardless of what Chekov's or Sulu's, supposed nationalities were, here was a guy who "sounded" Russian, during the middle of the cold war, and a guy who looked oriental during a time when the war in Vietnam was escalating. Uhura was a two fold issue being a woman who was an officer and saluted by men, as well as being black. The show was incredibly bold for it's time.
quote:Almost every individual on this planet lives as a mental prisoner inside her/his own private belief-system, tunnelreality, dream-(scape). What people in general believe is communication, is usually an effort to "sell" your own dream to someone else.
Interesting thought, but I like to think that it also includes a genuine interest in expanding one's own knowledge. We here in this forum, as well as in others, have exchanged ideas and ideals with both like and opposing minds and opinions. On occasion, we may find a different point of view that we had not considered before, that makes sense, or at least deserves consideration. It is the ego that limits us to believe that we, as individuals, are always right. When a person becomes secure with his own self-awareness, he can expand his mind and accept differences as a part of the big picture.
If we were all alike, this would be a very boring world indeed! As I searched for my FSU bride, I welcomed differences of opinion. These differences add to conversations as opposed to just making a statement and reading yes as a reply to everything.
Sleepwalking seems to be more of a symptom than the actual problem? I think it's complacency that's the real enemy... a simple lack of caring... caring about one's neighbor, the homeless guy, your job or whatever. I don't see people as being asleep, they just don't care.
Now my personal take on "organized" religion. Several expletives followed by... More people have died for no good reason in the name of "organized" religion than any other cause of death. Just look to Britain and the Irish to the north. Catholics and Protestants killing each other over a few silly printed words in a book that was actually wriiten by some guy in the court of King James, when they both worship the same God. Yes there are other factors involved, but...
The dreamstate I have talked about is mostly a question of how to recieve the information, we get from the world around us. We have a set of pre-programmed ideas of "correct"/ "not correct" and in the perceptive processing of information from the outer world, we let through that which supports our existing point of wiev and reject that, which doesn't. We have very strong mental filters for doing this. These filters are a big part of our ego.
A considerable amount of psychological tests supports this idea. Or just think about wittnesses in a court, how they can differ in what they "saw".
If your filters are sufficiently strong, you will live in a fantasyworld of your own. It can be so bad, that you even lie to yourself. Obviously such persons have very little contact with "reality", and are unable to communicate in a meaningful way. These are what I call sleepwalkers. That's what scared the living light out of me in UA, the lack of real communication.
As I see it, the ego is not identical with selfawareness. Selfawareness is so to speak at a higher mental level, from which you can observe your ego and "hone" your talents and get rid of unwanted parts.
Cit PeopleS:
"When a person becomes secure with his own self-awareness, he can expand his mind and accept differences as a part of the big picture".
Very true. Once awareness is master and not the ego. The greater the awareness, the smaller the filters, and the smaller your ego.
The ego usually follows the common predatory pattern, it's: Me, Me, Me. If you can develop awareness the possibility exists, that the less occuring way of relating: Symbiosis, can function. And that's after all what we strive for, when people look for a husband/wife/partner.
Symbiosis gives possibilities for communication, because it is give AND take (whereas the predatory method is only TAKING). Symbiosis can also give rise to compassion and empathy, because you can understand the other person better. But ofcourse both parts involved must be symbiotic to make it function.
And the symbiotic relationship is based on the necessity of difference, not from being alike. Both parts gain from the exchange of needed "substances". Thus a man can give "manstuff", and a woman can give "womanstuff", satisfying both part. (For my sake, they can put the unisex idea somewhere, where the sun doesn't shine).
I don't intend to carry this line of thinking to extremes, but I find it reasonable, that trying to acchieve the state of being a "decent guy" through awareness is a worthwhile aim.
What some of the organised religions have done to make peoples' lives into misery is beyond description. They are some of the worst predatory/parasitic examples in human history.
Holy macaroni, now I'll have the inquisition after me also.
All this maybe sounds very highbrow, abstract and unrelated to anti-scamming. But it isn't. It both puts the right questions, and can give some workable answers.
quote:Regarding the Star Trek "zoo", an old American sports philosophy fits best... "It's not how, but how many that counts in the end." How or why the diversity of the cast came to be is not as important as the fact that it was so diverse at a time when it simply wasn't done at all. Regardless of what Chekov's or Sulu's, supposed nationalities were, here was a guy who "sounded" Russian, during the middle of the cold war, and a guy who looked oriental during a time when the war in Vietnam was escalating. Uhura was a two fold issue being a woman who was an officer and saluted by men, as well as being black. The show was incredibly bold for it's time.
actually UK B-tier series U.F.O shot from 1968 (thus the same era) does pretty much that, too. I still think it was highly duplicitous (because done on purpose) to have-no-japanese; the same years Bruce Lee had scenes cut in THE GREEN HORNET; he usually wore a mask as Kato, aid to the main hero. One day he performs some of his acrobatics, then lifts the mask: the scene ends in the cutting room.
Later, angry Lee discovers it was because production thought the public won't appreciate an asian face.
Well, of course Star Trek is basically a giant chipped shoulder idol for public worshipping, the american way (EG no japanese, russians only intended as "Beatles boys" ).
While the old series is a classic, later (unwatchable) series took this chipped shoulder worshipping to sky-high limits and farcical exaggerations.
quote:Now my personal take on "organized" religion. Several expletives followed by...
religion is the first and foremost form of POLITICS and POLICY MAKING, shifting the "burden of proof" or "falsification" on the untangible side of what some angel, deity, demi-god or hallucinating conjurer said or wrote, often in a chain (EG a prophet told you what an angel told him, which a demi-god had learnt from god ).
Hindus worship Jupiter as protector; but Jupiter can be nasty at times.
Surprisingly enough, current astronomy will confirm planet Jupiter acts as firewall, preventing comets and asteroids from wandering en masse towards inner-circle planets, eg earth. Any review of the brutal effects of comet Shoemaker-levi impacting on Jupiter can suggest the effect it'd have on earth (several fragments leaving each an impact scar as big as earth itself ); but Jupiter is also nasty, because its gravity created the asteroid belt, between Mars & Jupiter; it ought to have been another rocky planet, but Jupiter's gravity gets in the way...and the asteroid belt is a floating land mine.
quote:Italians are notorious for their sexual exploits, if not bragging about them.
Italy is much like Yugoslavia: plenty of different ethnic groups. I could never be mistaken for a latino seducer. The bigger the claims to sexual fame, the faster the hand and the crisper the imagination, i say.
quote: spreading light on the subject is very important.
When I was scammed in 1999 (and thank got I grew wise and grew a spine as well ) there was little or no awareness.
Surprisingly, trying to raise awareness got me so many bitter enemies; some even harassed and stalked me FOR YEARS, taking time to send me hate mail.
Other loons banded wolfpack attacks against me, and -is it more sad or just plain moronic? - quite a few fell down in flames only weeks, or months after having tried to assassinate my character with accusations of varying degrees of vileness.
What really must kill them is that I never loose my composure, but laugh at them and poke sarcasm at their childish antics about being millionaires, oscar winners or just plain awesome individuals enjoying the greatest life ever.
I don't know about THEM, but if I were having the best life ever, not to mention being an emmy award winner, I wouldn't waste time braying like a complete idiot online to let everyone else know...I would be f-cking my many prom queen lovers, instead of writing about it online.
[:o)][:o)]:D[xx(]
Their pathetic & moronic attempts to foster this image of a "just awesome" online personality or lifestyle of theirs remind more of a mentally handicapped, capricious child crying for attention than of an accomplished millionaire releasing an interview to Forbes magazine...
quote:I don't intend to carry this line of thinking to extremes, but I find it reasonable, that trying to acchieve the state of being a "decent guy" through awareness is a worthwhile aim.
swede, I am far from an enlightened being, but I do understand what it is, and strive toward being capable of such thinking in my own feeble way. I think that is what has allowed this small forum of psychobabbling to continue as it has. Our minds are open to possibilities beyond that which we already know and that allows us to really consider someone else's thoughts and opinions even if they differ from our own preconceived ideas.
I understand what you mean about "sleepwalkers" and yes, these people are blinded to the outside world by their own preconceptions. "If it doesn't make sense to me, it simply can't be!" So they wander through life missing out on so much and sometimes go as far as to persecute those who even attempt to see beyond the obvious.
The ego certainly is a big part of the reason why people will not let go and seek something better within themselves. Another problem is the "sheepwalkers". The timid ones who will go along with whatever the egoists "sleepwalkers" tell them.
Unfortunately, I have a bit of experience with drug addiction. NOT ME, but my ex. It's a similar situation in many ways, and it is somewhat symbiotic. The drug user(abuser) is the "sleepwalker". In some cases not realizing what he or she is doing that's so harmful. The "sheepwalker" is what is called the "enabler". This person often does things they think are helpful to the person they care about, but are actually feeding into the problem.
quote:Surprisingly, trying to raise awareness got me so many bitter enemies; some even harassed and stalked me FOR YEARS, taking time to send me hate mail.
Yet, you persisted to enlighten others and warn them about what is really happenning in FSU/MOB dating. I think both swede and I can give you a heart felt "thanks" for having the IQ of a babboon and not knowing when to give up. There are plenty of people around these forums who need to thank you for your advise. I guess they're off "sleepwalking"?
Now, I'm far from a religious scolar and have spent all of zero days of my life in seminary school, but I still have thought about the subject which in my egotistical way, think should be obvious to most people. Let's just start off with the basics of Christianity. Jesus Christ was a jew, right? Why do so many "good" Christians and Catholics, hate jews, but love Jesus? The Bible is a really interesting story, but that's all it is, a story or collection of stories. The Bible that many of us know today is the King James version. It's just that, a [u]version</u> of a collection of stories written a thousand years before, some many thousands of years, when thinking Old Testiment.
A bit of "creative license" must have been thrown in by "translators" of the acient text in order to make the stories more appealing to the sitting king. Back then was not a good time to ruffle the feathers of one's king. So the "sheepwalkers" gave the "sleepwalking" king the book he wanted to see.
Do I believe in God, Christ and all that stuff? Sure, but not in the way someone else wants me to believe.
Maybe there's something to this worshiping Jupiter?
Sorry guys,
telephonelines have been down here, I'll be back tomorrow (now is 5 morning local time, and I'm not quite functional)
quote: The Bible that many of us know today is the King James version. It's just that, a version of a collection of stories written a thousand years before, some many thousands of years, when thinking Old Testiment.
1 there were as many as 30 gospels, more or less with the same currency; some "extra" gospels are still the canon in some views, EG coptic christianity. The rest was expurgated and forgotten as apocryphal not because it lacked an audience, but because they tried to "put together" the less conflicting ones (mind you: less conflicting, not absolutely coinciding ); catholics use the four "synoptic" gospels; "syn-optic" means you can read them side to side and they tell moreless the same story.
2 gospels were written between about 30 and 100 years after the death of Jesus. Now throw poetic license, ignorance, nearly non-existent scholarly methods, roman persecutions, roman law and political backstage into it and you get just a little more than the "informed" opinion of middle school dropout truck-driving Moe about how black holes impact the sigma (the bigger the black hole supposedly in the center of a galaxy, the faster the rotation of the most external belt of stars, aka sigma ). Whether or not we had a physical and individual person named Jesus, it is certain gospels -much as in the legend of rebel leaders Ned Ludd or Jacques nu-pieds - mixed legends, self-serving accounts etc with some facts. For example the "resurrected after 3 days" thing is an Egyptian myth; the son of a goddess boarding in a barn is a mythriac cult; even Romulus and Remus had a virgin mother seduced by a god; december 25 is the birthday of the sun god etc.
3 the first popular "translation" of the jewish bible was by "the 70", by a group of 70 scholars who added the vowels to the sacred text and thus gave it a meaning, if i remember correctly. Of course that was open to choice. Translation of Plato and Aristotle gives rise to heated and funny controversies to this day, as several critical terms are open to individual opinion. International treaties are often challenged on the ground of improper translations or self-serving interpretations.
quote: esus Christ was a jew, right? Why do so many "good" Christians and Catholics, hate jews, but love Jesus?
Right, that is why honoring Jupiter poses less problems I think.
:D[B)]
quote:Yet, you persisted to enlighten others
I have been there & i know.
Most men underestimate the consequences of being scammed or failing and think that real life will roll as easy as banding with a few sociopaths online to harass a clown named Ham.
Sorry, Barney.
You will get real cops and real lawyers and real judges and hold your tongue if you don't want to add charges of contempt and aggression to the DV charges your Natasha just filed.
When they get a new, complicated gadget, most people would read the manual first. But unfortunately we very complex human beings are born without manuals. So we have to write them ourselves on our way through life. Trying to create an inner map. This is a big part of awareness.
An example. I guess the majority share my experience, that we can't control negative emotions completely by the help of rational thinking or selfdiscipline. It's like such emotions have their own life and follow rules, we do not always understand. We all know, what havoc emotions can create, both individually or collectively, so it would be a great step forward to get a grip on them. This is but one example of lacking selfknowledge.
Many years ago I tried to follow a very selfdisciplinary method associated with yoga. After a few years I quit, because it actually seemed to enlarge the problems instead of diminishing them. I think, we are so complex, that black/white answers will not fit. Now I try "nudge" and balance myself in the direction, I have set in life. Like you would do with a small, obstinate child. It is a slow process, so like PeopleS I am also not enlightened. But it does give results.
You learn a little about yourself, then you use this knowledge, until you have control of the known area. After that you can expand a bit more, and so on. It's like orienting yourself in a new city. You find landmarks in an ever expanding circle, so in the end you know your way around.
This method has been used in various religious connections, but works just as well as a purely psychological tool. The early Hinayana buddhism f.ex. isn't very interested in gods etc., but used such inner maps and training.
Sadly the cyberdating FSUW are as far removed from doing this, as it is possible to be. Their distorted dreamscapes/fantasies are the complete opposite. They live in an almost total illusion, and they don't have any wish of changing. They live, as if there is no tomorrow.
For me this has been the main reason for my scepticism against them. I do not believe anyone, including myself, to be perfect. So change is sometimes needed to grow into a relationship.Try make a FSUW change, and you'll be up to a wall of reinforced concrete.
As Ham correctly tells, you can even risk retaliation of the most bizare kind. Both on internet (the ultrafemininsts for a while had their own anti-scam site, where anyone daring to scamreport a woman, were put out as male scammers). Or by having to fight endless legal fights, if they get a foot in a western country.
So ham, you basically agree with my assessment of what the Bible really is... a translated "version" of stories told centuries before, manipultated to please, if not the king who commissioned the work, but possibly the masses who would be preached to believe in and follow their teachings as FACT?
quote:Most men underestimate the consequences of being scammed or failing and think that real life will roll as easy as banding with a few sociopaths online to harass a clown named Ham.
Personally, I don't always agree with what you have to say, but I respect your opinions, insight and knowledge. You've prevented me from making a mistake or three.[:I]
quote: I guess the majority share my experience, that we can't control negative emotions completely
It's often said that fear is the strongest of emotions. It's primal and basic to any living thing with any degree of self-awareness. It is said that to control one's fear is the beginning toward enlightenment. However, fear comes in many forms and is not necessarily know to the one attempting to gain control of it. Imagination has a lot to do with it as well. We can't take control of a fear we have not imagined yet, therefore it remains a constant threat to acheiving inner peace which leads to enlightenment.
It's also possible that such a step is physically out of reach for humans today, due to simple brain chemistry and that such change is something that can only be acheived through millenia of evolution? I believe our brains, no matter how much we may try to control them, are pre-programmed with certain basic information that we simply cannot ignore, reprogram or de-program.
quote:Sadly the cyberdating FSUW are as far removed from doing this, as it is possible to be. Their distorted dreamscapes/fantasies are the complete opposite. They live in an almost total illusion, and they don't have any wish of changing. They live, as if there is no tomorrow.
I don't blame them for having such veiws. I try to understand that these women are not so far removed from the Soviet days and still believe in the fantastic things they have been told about the west. If I grew up standing in line to get a roll of toilet paper, I'd probably believe the stories of the west as being a land of milk and honey too. Anything is better than standing in line for a roll of toilet paper!
As for the feminists who may be tuning in, ladies don't get your boxers in a bunch! There will never be true equality of the sexes. Equality means both can do exactly what the other can with no discernable difference. Never happen!!! I will never get pregnant and ,although I'm sure some of you have tried, you will never be able to write your name in the snow without moving your feet!
We don't need to be equal. It is what was intended. Sure, anything that requires brain power, a woman can do as well as any man, but that's where it ends. Men and women were not created equal. Equal meaning the same. It's the differences that make life worth living!
Send all hate mail to...
This kind of brings up another point about FSU/MOB dating. Isn't it the differences between what we as men know and expect from the women at home and the stories we hear about FSUW's that draws us to them in the first place?
quote:if not the king who commissioned the work, but possibly the masses who would be preached to believe in and follow their teachings as FACT?
well, churches adapt to the way the wind of the day blows.
Catholics were putting burning charcoal between the feet of negroes or indios for centuries, to hear their screams, so that a priest could assess whether they had a soul or not.
Today if you don't say colored people are "just awesome", catholics will say you're a sinner because lord Jeetz luvd dem all.
[:o)][:o)]:D
There were many highly esteemed dogmas being enforced for CENTURIES, EG the cult of various gospel, the cult of "auxiliary saints" etc with full church approval.
Later, under the influence of scandals that threatened their secular power (the catholic church has probably more gold & valuables in store than the United States ), they were very quick to clip edges off, say banning gospels and banning the concept of auxiliary saints under the influence of lutheran upheaval.
Auxiliary saints were a small group (14) of saints on whom god supposedly bestowed god-like powers to act as its assistants.
The dogma claiming the pope is infallible is a XIX century invention to counter declining secular power threatened by events in Italy, and so forth.
quote:This kind of brings up another point about FSU/MOB dating. Isn't it the differences between what we as men know and expect from the women at home and the stories we hear about FSUW's that draws us to them in the first place?
well, one important reason people hate me so much is that I rub their chipped shoulders the wrong way. They want the fantasy; they want hair to grow back; they want trim waists in only 60 days with no effort soever; they want to "turn ten dollars into a thousand within one week using our proprietary forex trading scheme"; they want women young enough to be their (grand)daughters, but they want them with 1950s moral standards and hot as hell, too.
Isn't it a bit too much Barney? and you, Pedro? and Jamal? and Wong?
It'd be oh-so-nice, but we can't have it all...women are women after all, from another country, not another planet.
Bruce Lee was a gifted individual who had ambitions as philosopher (he has a philosophy B.A I think ); he was a cha-cha dancing champ, but he's famous only because of his martial arts skills.
Salesmen are the best philosophers and psychologists, for they must do it quick and do it right; attention spans of readers or listeners are extremely volatile, so there is no second chance.
So basically they sell men fairy tales telling men what(ever) they want to hear, no matter how far-fetched, risky or nonsensical.
Used cars come to mind...low batteries, unpaid road taxes, real mileages, rust, holed exhausts etc are shunned whichever possible way.
They even lie about trivialities; they lied to me and said a car (repossessed unpaid for loan ) had "arrived just yesterday", while I called a specialized agency & found out the car had been sitting there for ELEVEN MONTHS...nothing wrong with that, but why did they lie?
It becomes their second nature to misrepresent, twist, massage...every used car -according to them- was driven only by nice old ladies who used the car to go grocery shopping.
WWW/LD dating isn't different.
A snail-mail penpal (not dating) club claims over the internet about countless wonderful friendships it fostered, and that they have a sizable % of members into steady correspondence with each other for DECADES...
Well, I tried that stuff a long time ago and no correspondence lasted more than a few months at best...come think of it, when you loose touch with old friends and see them after years, you both are more similar to complete strangers than beer buddies meeting every night.
Sure, every provider wants to sugar coat and make its services look just great, but many men take that literally, and it is when trouble begin.
"It's often said that fear is the strongest of emotions. It's primal and basic to any living thing with any degree of self-awareness. It is said that to control one's fear is the beginning toward enlightenment. However, fear comes in many forms and is not necessarily know to the one attempting to gain control of it. Imagination has a lot to do with it as well. We can't take control of a fear we have not imagined yet, therefore it remains a constant threat to acheiving inner peace which leads to enlightenment."
Yes, there is fear and then there is fear. The fear you feel, if you meet a man-eating tiger, has a very high physical survival value., and as such is "good". Only those who have read to many idealized stories about enlightened masters, would try the: "Kitty, kitty, niiiice kitty" approach, when meeting a tiger. On the other hand the common fear of dentists is a case of un-necessary negative emotions. For a period I experimented with the actual pain connected with dentistry, and I discovered, that it doesn't hurt that much. It was mostly a case of imaginary, negative expectations. As to the sofar unknown fears, I try to tackle them, as they come. I have still have enough known fears to keep me occupied.
Cit. PeopleS:
"It's also possible that such a step is physically out of reach for humans today, due to simple brain chemistry and that such change is something that can only be acheived through millenia of evolution? I believe our brains, no matter how much we may try to control them, are pre-programmed with certain basic information that we simply cannot ignore, reprogram or de-program."
We certainly can't reprogram everything overnight. And even if we could, it's doubtful if everybody would want to do so. But we are not completely helpless victims of our own programs. There exist various, quite effective methods, which pragmatically have proved functional. It's possible to learn to control bloodpressure and pulse to a certain degree. We can learn to strengthen our immunity-defense system, we can learn to relax from excessive stresssymptoms etc. At a more mental level, we can also learn to control our thoughts, as far as to create "inner silence" (though this is difficult). Sometimes it isn't even necessary to live in a cave a number of years to do all this. We have f.ex. biofeed-back technologies, which do 80% of the job for us.
That such a re-programmimg can be slow and troublesome, I know. But a journey on 1000 miles starts with the first step.
Whether FSUW behave as they do, because of the impact Sovjet had on their culture, is an open question. The old argument between supporters of social or genetic explanations for human behaviour isn't over yet. Other cultures with simililar political systems haven't developed the FSUW-greed syndrom to such a degree. "The american dream" is fundamentally the same, and the majority of americans haven't queued for toiletpaper for generations. Personally I believe, that social impact and genetic background weights 50/50 on an average. But some individuals react more strong individually to one or the other factor.
In any case, my somewhat obsessive preoccupation with awareness also points to a third possibilty. The idea of "raising awareness" must ofcourse be based on the possibility of having a "free will". If you want to change, this is a choice, .. a decision. "Free will" has an almost esoteric quality. We choose, because we choose to choose. This can't be reduced to a set of predetermined factors like social impact or genes. Quantumphysics GIVES us the possibilty of rejecting predeterminism.
I do not try to deny, that we mostly are biological robots. I'm only saying, that we also have other options, no matter how small or difficult they are.
It is significant, that the world is divided into two fundamental existential ideologies, exoterically expressed as religions. The western variety: Judaism, christianity and islam, and the eastern hinduism, buddhism, taoism, tantrism and gnosticism (the latter is not, as many believe, a christian splintersect). The "western" religions generally postulates a creator, who is perfect ("Good", allknowing, allpowerful etc).. If you can't see this, it's because you are "stoopid", and in any case you are not supposed to understand it, his ways are mysterious and "faith" is the only thing, you have to care about..... OR ELSE..... you will have it coming. Remember that according to the bible-inspired worldviews, the whole mess started with Eve and Adam eating from the tree of knowledge. Such a point of view can naturally be used for manipulative purposes."Stop trying to find answers, and do as we say". The "eastern" religions often center around the concept of "knowledge" (eg. "realisation, gnosis etc"), based upon mental and practical techniques for finding awareness, and care less about gods. As a staunch liberal, I'm naturally inclined to sympathize more with the eastern way.
It's my conviction, that if Jesus incarnated in the west today, he would be crucified as a heretic.
"This kind of brings up another point about FSU/MOB dating. Isn't it the differences between what we as men know and expect from the women at home and the stories we hear about FSUW's that draws us to them in the first place?"
Ofcourse the grass is always greener on the other side of the stream.
Ham. Agreed generally. I hope you don't take it negatively, when I sometimes propose an extension of the obvious epistemological questions put here. Your analysis of the situation is correct; what I try to do is to peel still another layer of the existential onion. What will be the next reasonable set of questions (and answers)at a deeper level?
quote:well, churches adapt to the way the wind of the day blows.
Maybe, but we're talking hurricane force winds. Although I'm not Catholic, I have some very good friends who are so I know some about their belief system. Other faiths and denominations of Christianity may be more easily influenced to change with the current times, but the Catholic church is seemingly steadfast in it's unwillingness to change. Yes, there have been some changes, but these are changes that come well after the rest of the religious world has already moved forward.
As for the gold stash in Vatican City, this to me is a major part of what has managed to influence the Catholic church and others to make the changes they have seen fit to make. Organized religion has been slowly dying for decades as the real world moves forward with technology, space exploration, etc, religion and what it "sells" has lost it's shine. "Faith" simply doesn't cut it with a majority of the young, and then you also have those who are akin to my way of looking at "the big picture".
Declining church attendance, whether the cause is youthful discontent with the traditional ways, granny's hip hurts too much to go anymore so she now gets her religious fill watching her favorite TV preacher or people who are fed up with stories of the priest and the alter boy, much of the so called organized religious world is running short of... MONEY! My personal feeling is that the big churches don't really care about spreading the gospel quite as much as money, power and influence.
As for my personal veiws on "the big picture", I believe in a God. Okay, science tells us about the "BIG BANG". Okay. So where did all of these elements and other building blocks of existance come from? If everything came from this "big bang", what created "the bang"? I believe there was a really insightful, peace loving guy name Jesus Christ who walked the earth telling stories of something he believed in his heart would give mental and emotional peace to the people around him. What his birthright was, I can't say one way or the other, but I believe there was such a man. Miracles??? Taking two paddles, putting them on a dead man's chest and bring him back to life would have been "miracle" to even men as well respected as Socrates, Da Vinci or even Confucious! Who really knows all of what took place over two thousand years ago? We all know how stories can grow and evolve from telling to telling. And at the same time, sometimes thing actually do happen that science can't fully explain! Basically, I refuse to close my mind to the impossible or improbable.
As to ham's comments about salesmen, isn't that what FSU/MOB dating and scamming is all about? I've said before that regardless of who places an ad profile on any of the many sites, real girl, scammer, real guy, sex tourist, it's all about "selling" yourself or a fantasy. Real girls try to "sell" themselves to prospective mates, as do real guys. Scam artists try to "sell" their fantasy to uninformed guys in order to get money and the sex tourists try to "sell" themselves to real girls so they can fly to wherever to have sex and then brag about it to their equally screwed up pals.
No matter who places the ad, it all boils down to making a "sale". The big difference between buying a used car and buying into what your FSU/MOB beauty is "selling" is that you can see the car and drive it before you buy. It costs a plane ticket and the price of a room to go test drive your FSUW, or find out that you've been writing to Boris for the passed three months or more.
quote:Only those who have read to many idealized stories about enlightened masters, would try the: "Kitty, kitty, niiiice kitty" approach, when meeting a tiger.
Let's not confuse fear with utter stupidity! I know you do not. However, it must also be understood that fear is what I would have to consider to be one of the two strongest pre-programs that we have, the other being self-preservation, which is very much tied to fear. A peaceful man who is drafted into war and made a soldier is often a good example of both. In a few, fear of dying, fear of being maimed, or just the fear of the horror that surrounds them becomes censory overload and they crumble, but for most, the basic instinct of self-preservation takes control and they will "kill or be killed", no matter how deplorable killing may be to the individual.
Yes, there are those rare individuals who have learned to "control" their fear and other pre-programming to a level that is out of reach to most, including myself. Most of these people reach this level through some form of belief system be it western or eastern. As a child of seventies American TV, a show called "Kung Fu" brought eastern philosophy to mainstream America. The main character of this show was a Shaolin munk who wanders the American old west searching for his brother. (As I understand, Bruce Lee was considered for the starring role, but lost out in part because of his poor English) It was a popular show because of the martial arts displays, but it also brought eastern philosophy to the masses in the US. (Albeit diluted and deluded a bit) Basically, peace and harmony with the world around you can only be acheived when you can find these things with yourself.
Free will is not a factor in the equation as I see it. We all have the freedom to choose. (Unless you're a complete "sheepwalker") It's other factors that influence our choices that we must cope with and understand.
I really must buy you two guys a beer one day. I enjoy your contributions.
Cit.PeopleS:
"As for my personal views on "the big picture", I believe in a God. Okay, science tells us about the "BIG BANG". Okay. So where did all of these elements and other building blocks of existance come from? If everything came from this "big bang", what created "the bang"?"
In the end, this is ofcourse a question of personal faith. Personally I will go along with you a long way, because I also believe in an "architect" (though I prefer to avoid the word god, as it has so many associations to religious belief-systems). And don't mind about science, after quantum physics got recognized, a lot of things changed. Now it is housebroken to talk about "intelligent design" as a possible explanation for the banging. Though there exist several competing theories, I find I.D. as the most reasonable, as it is supported by strong arguments.
I have gone a step further and formed opinions of this possible designing intelligence. Won't go into technical details, but only conclude that a designer of universe(s), should have included much more symbiosis in his workmanship. The universe is build upon and regulated by some fundamental laws, but these laws are not necessarily beneficient for the single parts of the universe. At least for biological life, evolutionary "stronger-eat-weaker" is the "natural" state.
If we want to develop any humanistic ideals, however small they are, we work uphill. It's not "natural" to be idealistic. So I believe, we have to be "un-natural" to develop ideals, awareness, enlightenment. Or just plain decent.We must put ourselves above natural laws (hope it's understood, that for me un-natural doesn't mean any kind of vile perversions, quite the contrary).
PeopleS, how do you think of "freedom to choose"? If it's only a question of taking the most appealing of several options, it's not freedom, but simply a mechanical reaction to external factors.
For me freedom to choose is when we are outside the natural laws and can decide our own fate. Then we truly have "magic", and I strongly believe, that a few individuals in human history have reached that level. Even in the present age, we occasionally hear about "extra-normal" phenomenon, which can'.t be explained, like OOBEs (out-of-body-experiences). Had a few myself, so this is firsthand experience. (Won't enlarge this idea, because this is not the place to expand on it. I'm not missionary).
But ofcourse until we develop some degree of awareness, we are robots blindly following mechanical laws. There's nothing revolutionary about such an idea, it's a central part of f.ex. buddhism (I'm not a buddhist).
Strangely enough all this leads me back to our main subject. Scamming. My thesis is, that scamming is actually a "natural" part of life, being a special variety of the general predating principle. If my ideas are correct, we then only have one option (if we operate under "natural" laws), and that is to stop being prey.
I have no wish of turning this forum into a place of theological discussions. I hope, everybody reading this will understand, that the above is one man's opinion, and that I respect what others may think/believe about such subjects.
quote:In the end, this is ofcourse a question of personal faith. Personally I will go along with you a long way, because I also believe in an "architect" (though I prefer to avoid the word god, as it has so many associations to religious belief-systems). And don't mind about science, after quantum physics got recognized, a lot of things changed. Now it is housebroken to talk about "intelligent design" as a possible explanation for the banging. Though there exist several competing theories, I find I.D. as the most reasonable, as it is supported by strong arguments.
Ah my friend, but does your inability to make such a leap of faith then limit your own potential to some degree? And if not to "leap", simply acknowlegde the possibility?
Religion dictates that anything we can't explain is an act of God or Satan. Science says everything has an explanation, we just haven't found it yet. I believe that there is an explanation for everything, but that it's possible the explanation is God or Satan??? What a rush!!!!
My whole point is that God is a possibility. You yourself refer to "intelligent design". To me, I.D. is simply science's way of saying we have no clue, maybe there is a God, but we crapped on that idea for so long that we have to call it something else in order to save face.
As I contemplate what enlightenment is, I have to believe that being able to accept all of the possiblities that exist is a part of the path. I admit that I find it hard to accept EVERYTHING. I attribute this in part to my basic primal programming, the programming I received from my parents and the programming I've received from, yes, socio-economic factors of the area I grew up.
I will often point out my own shortcomings as I see them, as I do attempt to leave my ego at the door here. I think that self awareness is also partly a matter of being able to take an honest look at yourself and acknowledge your limitations while striving to overcome them.
quote:If we want to develop any humanistic ideals, however small they are, we work uphill. It's not "natural" to be idealistic. So I believe, we have to be "un-natural" to develop ideals, awareness, enlightenment. Or just plain decent.We must put ourselves above natural laws (hope it's understood, that for me un-natural doesn't mean any kind of vile perversions, quite the contrary).
I have to disagree. As I have spoken of evolution toward a more enlightened state of being, I feel this part of mankind's evolution has already taken place millenia ago.
The caveman sought only to survive until tomorrow and reproduce, and even reproduction was only a by-product of something a bit more primal to his nature.
No, modern man dreams of more. We seek more than we presently have both materialistically and idealistically. Our problem is that we can't figure out how to get it, or in our fast food world, how to get it in ten minutes or less! Is this greed? Not necessarily. Science is a part of the dream to find more, and science in and of itself is not a bad thing.
quote:Strangely enough all this leads me back to our main subject. Scamming. My thesis is, that scamming is actually a "natural" part of life, being a special variety of the general predating principle. If my ideas are correct, we then only have one option (if we operate under "natural" laws), and that is to stop being prey
From the first time Ugg the caveman reached behind Brap the caveman and tapped him on the opposite shoulder to make him look the other way while Ugg swiped his chunk of mammoth flesh and then pointed to the sky claiming a pterodactyl swooped down and stole it, humans have been scamming one another in one way or another. Fsu scammers are nothing new, they just have a new medium.
"My whole point is that God is a possibility. You yourself refer to "intelligent design". To me, I.D. is simply science's way of saying we have no clue, maybe there is a God, but we crapped on that idea for so long that we have to call it something else in order to save face."
No, I definitely believe, there is some creative force "behind" the bang. But I'm ofcourse uncertain of, what it is. So I avoid using a word, which already has some copyrights attached to it. Words have a tendency to create things, if they are used carelessly.
(General semantics, Count Korzybski).
The idea of a paternal grandfather in a white nightshirt doesn't really fit in with my vague expectations. But I'm not one of those, who want to use science as a shield. Science is as much a beliefsystem, as religion is, though there are some useful aspects in both. So I neither reject or totally accept any of them. Or for that sake, any other belief-systems.
I don't want to believe. I want to KNOW, to experience "reality".
"Being there" stuff. Such is possible, but very difficult to acchieve.
Having occasionally had small glimpses of the awareness-state, it is my experience, that what we at the present call and use as "explanations" are insufficient in this extradimensional being. I think, that when a person gets there, an almost complete revision of
the rules we live after here, will take place.
quote:Maybe, but we're talking hurricane force winds.
oh no, a strong gust of wind will do, too.
The easiest example is shame and contempt thrown at colored people & illegal aliens for centuries, who have in recent decades become the cream of the holy crop of salvation...because churches are empty, seminars close down, monasteries open in year 1100 close down. Who'll run the petty, street side of the show in a few decades? Beggars can't be choosers, so who's left to free ride the church for an education? Mostly Kongo and Akeem from the land of sky-high AIDS and disease. Even the rage about latino people died quickly in a couple decades. They even hoped Ahmed and Abdul would do, but after weaseling in behind the "Jeeztz luvd uz 'ol ", they set up mosques and tell horrible things about jews, dead or living.
quote:much of the so called organized religious world is running short of... MONEY!
The Popes have been amassing wealth for the last 2000 years; the oldest known european government (french) is only less than half that age.
Money is not a concern, but people, labour force, working bees. That is how Akeem and Kongo are now fine and dandy: because none else is left, willing to take the job.
Religion -with all its myths and bedtime stories about superheroes short of hood&cape- serves as social stabilizer and control mechanism.
No longer, because as of now everybody and everything would just do... illegal aliens, sexual deviants, murderers...
I am not saying good or bad, but I am saying the social control/pressure item is gone, when churches are too desperate for adepts to overlook basics they have preached for millennia.
Once religion's social role is gone, why would anyone pay attention to bedtime stories and faulty narratives about fictional superheroes?
Back to the topic...
Wasn't mentioned here that a good way to find "traditional western women" today is within very conservative religions such as Mormons, World Church of the Creator etc etc? It is not that their bedtime stories are truer or better than the old ones, but it is about the fact the social pressure/control role of these denominations is still active, at least infinitely more active than old chistianity.
quote:As I understand, Bruce Lee was considered for the starring role, but lost out in part because of his poor English
KUNG FU was actually Bruce Lee's format; he invented it, but was cheated because he was chinese and producers didn't think masses were ready for a chinese as main actor. Lee spoke excellent English and had a US B.A. Listen to his interviews to find out. He spoke fluent Japanese as well.
quote:I have no wish of turning this forum into a place of theological discussions. I hope, everybody reading this will understand, that the above is one man's opinion, and that I respect what others may think/believe about such subjects.
opinions are like feet...
Cit Ham:
"opinions are like feet..."
Sorry Ham, my english is not not suffiencient enough to understand this.
As far as I know, the roman church was almost bankrupt at the beginning of the 20th century, and they called in a banker to bring order in the finances. Ironically enough this man was a jew.
Apart from this, I also do not have a great love for organised religion. Even in Tibet, with its otherwise likeable people and peaceful worldwiev (50 years ago) parts of the higher religious circles used or condoned the use of serfs. These serfs were in reality more or less slaves. (I have this firsthand from a man, who lived 11 years there illegally).
But any kind of human group will give possibility for parasites, probably even down to the local stamp-collecting club.
quote: Cit Ham:
there are two versions of this saying:
1 opinions are like feet: everybody got 2 and they damn stink
2 opinions are like a$$holes: everybody got one, and it damn stinks
Hi Ham,
correct me, if I misinterpret you and/or draw conclusions, which you disagree with.
As I see it, opinions are what I call "belief-systems" (be they political, religious or how to collect stamps the "proper" way), and without exception we all start somewhere with a set of preconceived ideas of what is "right" or "wrong" in life. It may be something as epistomologically convoluted as the Cartesian: "I think, therefore I am", or the alley-bum: "I drink, therefore I am". And from there we go on trying to spread our personal message about how, we would like the world to look.
Sometimes with a holy book in one hand and a sword in the other, sometimes with a Wall street disinformation theory about monopolcapitalism disguised as new-liberalism.
And we try to "explain" all our various models of life by using hypothesis or theories of this or that. Evolution-theory justifying the predator's ever expanding need of "lebensraum", the egghead's shaking off responsibility: "Well, I just build this bomb. It's not my job to say how to use it" or the common sheepwalker's famous last words: "I'm quite sure, that out leaders know, what they are doing".
So ofcourse "opinions" stink. But for good or bad, we all (with the possible exception of adepts) hang onto something.
In case anybody has missed it, I'm doing my lone ranger stunt, because I want to get as far from belief-systems as possible. But I also have some basic premises. I am neither meek nor turn the other cheek, but as long as I'm left in peace (which is an option here, where I live) I try to follow "live and let live".
We don't know exactly, what the heck really is going on in this universe, but we fight merrily about it anyway.
So I start from making some social agreements: "Don't lie to me, don't cheat me, don't steal from me and don't invade my small private space". Like democracy it's maybe not the final answer, but for the duration, it's functional. Making social contracts as this have lately got a bad name. But I prefer it to the aggressively missionary method, because everyone can see the reason in it. Though they often disregard it, on their way to a bigger piece of the creamcake.
I have realised this point of wiev by living in, what is popularly called "voluntary simplicity". That is, considered from a western outlook. I'm often considered stark raving mad (or by friends: Rather eccentric). But 80% or more of the people living on this planet would think, I live as a prince. Both parts agreeing on, that I'm mentally deranged, because I don't want "more".
Ofcourse I am expressing "opinions" by joining this forum. But I would like to believe, that the damage done is relatively small. I'm not starting any major or minor wars or encouraging individuals to become asocial.
And I get a lot of personal satisfaction from exchanging opinions with guys like you and Peoples, even when we disagree. It's a learning process. A statement which is NOT to be confused with new-age marmalade philosophy.
quote:No, I definitely believe, there is some creative force "behind" the bang. But I'm ofcourse uncertain of, what it is. So I avoid using a word, which already has some copyrights attached to it. Words have a tendency to create things, if they are used carelessly.
True that the word God has a copyright issue, with each religious sect claiming that their God is the one true God etc etc blah blah blah.
According to the King James Bible, when God spoke to Moses, he told him, "I am what I am." Popeye the sailorman used to use the same line! What I see as part of the path to a high level is to have the inner ability to ask questions, except the opinions and thoughts of others as POSSIBLE, and although it is our nature to choose the answers that best fit our own idealogy, always retain the understanding that what you don't agree with may be right. Of course, I mean this in a philosophic way, as should someone say that in his opinion the road to long life is to put a loaded shotgun in your mouth and pull the trigger, this person is either kidding or deranged.
quote:I don't want to believe. I want to KNOW, to experience "reality".
Here, we differ greatly in our person philosophical beliefs. I don't want to know everything. I believe we aren't meant to. I feel it's our destiny to accept this and to contemplate the possibilities of the unknown. I feel this "not knowing" is what motivates some of us to become better, as individuals and thus aa a society as a whole, as we search for the answers, although it was this quest that has led us to the ability to destroy ourselves in one nanosecond. When we know everything, what purpose will our lives hold? Again, I will take the low road and refer to "Star Trek". In the "Next Generation" series, they introduced a character called "Q". "Q" was one of many, all named "Q", who had obtained omnipotence... all knowing, all seeing, all powerful... etc. They were bored to death!!! I see this as what could happen to a person were he or she to know everything. What challenges would be left, and without challenges, what purpose is there to life? But, I could be wrong and there may be something to knowing everything.
quote:The Popes have been amassing wealth for the last 2000 years; the oldest known european government (french) is only less than half that age.
Yes, but the general fund is in the red these days. Sure, the Catholic church in particular has quite a nice chunk of change stashed away, but they are no longer making a profit. I work as a commercial HVAC service tech. The company I work for has several service contracts with local Catholic churches/ schools, including the Diocese of Trenton, NJ, USA. The folks that work in these places aren't so hush-hush about things. There is often a lack of funds. School enrolments are down (tuition), church attendance is down (pass the collection plate), and paying off all the lawsuits from the respected padres having their trists with alter boys in the confessionals is taking it's toll. Throw in the numerous TV evangelists, and even the mighty Catholic church has it's monetary woes.
quote:Ofcourse I am expressing "opinions" by joining this forum. But I would like to believe, that the damage done is relatively small. I'm not starting any major or minor wars or encouraging individuals to become asocial.
I like to believe the contrary. Expression of one's opinions and listening to the opinions of others is all a part of gaining and share knowledge. We do this here in this little piece of cyberspace. The real "damage" would be for you NOT to share your thoughts with others.
I'll agree to the possibilty of boredom.
But for me the balance between informative communication and being a missionary, sometimes worries me. Examples:
As Emanuel in James Branch Cabell's wonderful books, I say: "The world wants to be deceived".
Nietzche, expanding on power, was quite afraid of his mother in law. Freud, with his psychological theories of sexuality, had a lousy marital life. Roussau (or was it Thoureau), wrote books about how to bring up children, but had to employ professional nurses etc., because he couldn't manage his own kids. Chairman Mao's wife, active in the socalled "cultural revolution", had an impressive collection of "decadent" western movies. Einstein, being a confirmed pacifist, helped building the nuclear bomb. Hitler, the ideal ubermensch, was said to be a sexual masochist. Albert Schweitzer, the great humanitarian, was accused of being a religious bigot. Etc.
Personally I'm afraid of big spiders and heights.
None of us is perfect. But we should have the decency to admit it, instead of starting various types of crusades to hide it.
We not only live in illusions, we encourage them.
But ofcourse if you live in a repressive society, where you have the choice between being grilled or risking falling of the edge of a flat world, it's better to keep your trap shut. Until the mind police is a reality, we can always THINK, what we want.
quote:Roussau (or was it Thoureau), wrote books about how to bring up children, but had to employ professional nurses etc.,
Rousseau abandoned his children to orphanages.
"what purpose will our lives hold?" & "What challenges would be left, and without challenges, what purpose is there to life?"
The reason I'm not a buddhist is exactly for the same reasons you are mentioning. Buddhists often state, that the other side of the bang is "the great emptiness". Having had a couple of moderate (non-chemically induced) mini-nirvanas, my experience is, that it's rather like a silence. As like listening to the wind in the trees, after that damned fool with his ghetto-blaster finally has gone home to his daily moronic activities. It's not "dead"
There are still things to learn and decide about out in the transcendence. Otherwise how could buddhas decide on extra+ compassion, giving up buddhahood and going back in "normal" life as boddhisatvas to help the rest of us. That's a decision if any.
What happens after that level of existence (nirvana), it's a bit to premature for me to form opinions about. All of you guys, ...if you hang around on "psychobabbling", I'll let you know, when/if I find out. For the uninitiated: That was a joke! (this is here, where I'm supposed to say LOL, isn't it???)
"Rousseau abandoned his children to orphanages".
Even worse than nurses.
quote:The reason I'm not a buddhist is exactly for the same reasons you are mentioning. Buddhists often state, that the other side of the bang is "the great emptiness". Having had a couple of moderate (non-chemically induced) mini-nirvanas, my experience is, that it's rather like a silence. As like listening to the wind in the trees, after that damned fool with his ghetto-blaster finally has gone home to his daily moronic activities. It's not "dead"
But doesn't Buddism involve a search for inner peace, as opposed to total knowledge? Thus the isolationism associated with Buddist monks (or any type of monestary atmosphere? Certainly, "inner" peace is much easier to obtain in an isolated sub-culture of like-minds who all seek the same thing. The trick is to maintain this peace in the midsts of everyday life away from the mountain.
I think I've told you guys before that I'm a Native American. In my general subculture, a certain degree of peace and harmony with nature etc, is something that is part of our "programming", that is passed down from parent to child. Maybe this will shed some light on some of my philosophical beliefs? The thing is, that within our culture we also have what is generically refered to as a "vision quest". Granted, in the old days such a quest was helped along by certain herbs of a somewhat mind altering nature, but the goal was pure.
A little history lesson for you guys... Here, "in the land of the free and the home of the brave", the freest and "greatest" nation in the world, the people who were native to this land did not receive the right to vote until 1925, and there are still some religious practices that are outlawed by the federal government, because they involve the use of paote or hallucinogenic mushrooms. Not that I am advocating drug use, but this was a religious practice observed for hundreds of years before Europeans found out the world wasn't as flat as they thought.
Anyway, the point behind a vision quest, with or as is now very popular without mind altering substances, is to seek peace and harmony with one's self, try to understand one's purpose in life and a bunch of other existential mumbo-jumbo, and retain this when returning to the real world. Sounds in part, similar to what you are trying to accomplish swede?
I've had my small vision quests from time to time. Although I find temporary peace, nothing life changing has ever come from them, but I hope that one day something will just "click"!!!
And if you were wondering, in Native American culture there is a belief in a higher power... The Great Spirit, God, Allah, Intelligentent Design, or even Popeye if you please...
I have to take a second to thank you guys for giving me this opportunity to explore some of these more philosophical topics with you. It's truly a breathe of fresh air!!!
All citations PeopleS:
"But doesn't Buddism involve a search for inner peace, as opposed to total knowledge? Thus the isolationism associated with Buddist monks (or any type of monestary atmosphere? Certainly, "inner" peace is much easier to obtain in an isolated sub-culture of like-minds who all seek the same thing. The trick is to maintain this peace in the midsts of everyday life away from the mountain"
"Knowledge" in this connection is more meant as "wisdom", rather than intellectual knowledge. And inner peace is the tool, you use to find wisdom, not an end in itself. Being "wise" amongst people is for the advanced; so being a beginner, I seek solitude. Out amongst the polar bears, plastered mooses (they like to eat fermented apples), ticks and other endearing aspects of mother nature (again I crave artistic license).
"I think I've told you guys before that I'm a Native American. In my general subculture, a certain degree of peace and harmony with nature etc, is something that is part of our "programming", that is passed down from parent to child. Maybe this will shed some light on some of my philosophical beliefs? The thing is, that within our culture we also have what is generically refered to as a "vision quest". Granted, in the old days such a quest was helped along by certain herbs of a somewhat mind altering nature, but the goal was pure."
I didn't know know your ethnic background, but if possible, it makes you even more sympathetic (don't worry, I'm not idealising). Having spent a few years with cultural anthropology, I'm familiar with the sad history of your people, and thinking of it has always made me ashamed to belong to the pink race, as I do being caucasian. I also better understand your pro-creation attitude (as opposed to my scepticism of the quality of the universe). For a few years I joined a group of revival shamans here in Scandinavia, and before that I tried peyote a few times (that was before authorities made it illegal, because they discovered that such substances can turn you into an individualist). My expanded vision quest isn't over yet, but still only being 63 years young, I hope, I will make it. I'm really curious to find out, what all this is about. Life and everything.
"Sounds in part, similar to what you are trying to accomplish swede?"
As far as the pragmatic methods used, it's very similar, and in any case both you and I could be completely wrong about believing we end up at the eternal huntinggrounds or nirvana. We COULD end up with a lot of unisex types playing harps and worshipping the old man. Now THAT'S, what I would call boredom.
"I have to take a second to thank you guys for giving me this opportunity to explore some of these more philosophical topics with you. It's truly a breathe of fresh air!!!"
Sir PeopleS, on your white Harley and your shining black leather armour. I return the compliment with all my heart.
And now to something completely different.
PeopleS and Ham,
I hope, you have noticed, that our small corner here is getting slightly fashionable according to the size of our passive audience. Soon we can even compete in popularity with such fascinating topics as: "Natasha, the nymphomaniac, nude, nubile namby-pamby".
Starting this topic, I wasn't aware of the hidden need, the world has for psychobabbling. Well, even one of these days one of the closet-philosophers will come out here to join us.
Two-syllable words accepted, but please, no cursing or spitting on the floor.
quote:"Knowledge" in this connection is more meant as "wisdom", rather than intellectual knowledge.
Aaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!! A word that has eluded us all until now... WISDOM! Yes, yes!!! Oh Popeye, YES!!! Within wisdom lies the answers to all. The ability to reason, the ability to dael with life , the ability to understand. Wisdom comes in many forms. Each of us has shown wisdom in the realization that we can each, and society as a whole, be better. We show our wisdom by seeking the wisdom of others to add to that which we already possess and sharing what we have so that others may benefit as we have.
As for my ethnic background, my friend, you didn't do anything so keep on living and expanding yourself. I'm from the east coast of the states. The folks out west are the ones that still have it bad. Think about it, as the US moved west, they were still fighting while my forefathers were already being assimilated. They're a hundred years behind where I am in some ways. My great-great grandfather was a farmer. A guy like me out west might say his great-great grandfather was killed by the US Cavalry.
It's a bit of a social time warp within our culture! To speak of which, I've talked to people from the west and it might be said that if a guy has the means, camping out in Arizona, Wyoming or some other western US state could bring about the same result as what we all have searched for in the FSU. Although, some of the women are pretty harsh on the eye, some are quite beautiful.
I know what you're thinking, but we're talking third world poverty. Some of these people don't even have electricity! These people don't have computers to go on dating sites and finding a girl means just what I said, going there and staying for quite a while and getting to know her the old fashioned way. Generally, outsiders aren't received well, even other Natives.
I'd have to say our little corner of cyberspace has proven itself to be a place where like-minds in principle can come to exchange ideas, ideals, opinions or thoughts in general with the knowledge that everything we say may not be agreed with, but also won't be subjected to the narrow thinking of "sleepwalkers". It's quite refreshing for me to be able to discuss the things we have.
Personally, I would welocome others as long as they mnid their manners and understand this is a slightly more civil discussion and exchange. Wow, what a concept civility!!!
In my experience "wisdom" is quite specific. Take a christian mystic, a sufi, a red indian shaman, a tibetan lama, an indian yogi or an australian aborigine and they would probably be able to establish meaningful communication on common ground very quick. It's difficult to explain, but there's a special kind of "energy" you will recognise and respond to. (Sorry, I hate to speak in such terms. It makes it sound so cheap, but our language hasn't got the necessary concepts to do better).
"Sharing" wisdom is a completely and naturally integrated part of the state.
Hope I do not sound too pretentious. I still have a long way to go.
I do not have a personal bad conscience about the idiocy about the way the "pink man's burden to enlighten the savage heathens" was demonstrated. I just feel bad about someone having been the victims of such.
Cit:
"I know what you're thinking, but we're talking third world poverty. Some of these people don't even have electricity!"
I've never been to US, but I know about the big differences in standard existing there.
When I moved to Sweden to my farm, I had the electricity disconnected (had to call the powercompany three times, before they believed me) as a small experiment in lifestyle-changing. Lived this way 14 years. But ofcourse it was voluntary, I always had the option to get electricity back (which I've done now), though the experience was there.
Outsiders aren't recieved heartily anywhere in rural societies. That's alright with me. People need a chance to see, who you are. After 35 years here, I also take a good look at new neighbours (that is, anyone inside a couple of miles), before I let them in.
quote:Take a christian mystic, a sufi, a red indian shaman, a tibetan lama, an indian yogi or an australian aborigine and they would probably be able to establish meaningful communication on common ground very quick.
Or you could take a Swede, an Italian and a Native American, put them together in an anti-scammers forum and you will find that like minded people will gravitate toward each other to form a place to exchange ideas and engage in an earnest communication as well.
The people you mentioned all have a commonality, which is a generally peaceful and philosophical nature.
We have found a similar commonality. We have the desire to be more than we are and are able to exchange thoughts with each other and make points and counterpoints without arrogance or the pretense that "what I say is right and everyone else should listen to me".
It seems quite courageous in some respects to have chosen to disconnect your electric, and yes I will say, eccentric as well. Did you get what you wanted from the experience?
Even the Amish of Pennsylvania have electricity and a few other "modern" conveniences. They would be the closest that I know of who voluntarily live such a simpistic life.
The Native Americans that I spoke of don't live that way by choice for the most part. Believe it or not, there are still a number of "Indian Reservations" that were established by the US government in the 1800's that still exist. They're little more than shanty towns in the middle of nowhere. Out of sight, out of mind!
quote:A little history lesson for you guys... Here, "in the land of the free and the home of the brave", the freest and "greatest" nation in the world, the people who were native to this land did not receive the right to vote until 1925, and there are still some religious practices that are outlawed by the federal government, because they involve the use of paote or hallucinogenic mushrooms. Not that I am advocating drug use, but this was a religious practice observed for hundreds of years before Europeans found out the world wasn't as flat as they thought.
another way to show how duplicitous post-WWII "inclusiveness" mentality is, is to ask why, if "difference" is to be celebrated and "otherness" is the blessed sign of Jeetz who luvd dem ol, why it hasn't become fashionable and hip and trendy to be Indian. It is fashionable to be African (CFR the various "100% Africa" movie/TV Spyke Lee-like niche ); it is even fashionable to be a serial killer, so that enlightened lefty whiteys can show you how compassionate and understanding they can be, but not Indian?
Discovery of "native american heritage" by celebrities such as Chuck Norris & Val Kilmer is handled like an extravagance in poor taste; you see no "Indian history months", while say Spielberg's discovery of "Jewishness" is celebrated next to Marconi's invention of radio transmission [:o)]; not to mention the complete bunk "Roots" book (engineered narrative voided of much substance, aka "tell people what they expect to hear", http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0361-5413(1981)8%3C205%3AUKKOTP%3E2.0.CO%3B2-B
) etc are celebrated like the "objective truth" next to the stinking of feet :D[:o)].
Indians don't even make crime rate headlines...
As far only two western government entered into peer agreement with Indians: the French and the Confederates (the last confederate general to surrender was in fact an Indian ), go figure.
In Canada M?tis (french-indian) ruled Manitoba, but were exterminated by the same clowns that today say interracial things are cool.
Maybe because M?tis and indians were not anyone's sock puppets; I read about carpet baggers and Africans, but not about carpet baggers and Indians.
quote:It's a bit of a social time warp within our culture! To speak of which, I've talked to people from the west and it might be said that if a guy has the means, camping out in Arizona, Wyoming or some other western US state could bring about the same result as what we all have searched for in the FSU. Although, some of the women are pretty harsh on the eye, some are quite beautiful.
as said "traditional western women" still exist, but there is a price to pay, whether it is to profess a strict religion such a Mormonism, or to join an Indian tribe.
Most men are unwilling to pay the price because -all things considered- all they want are very young beauty queens.
I don't know about Indians, but I read a few things about Mormons...it is true they tend to marry young (much more than outsiders, that is ), but that offers a 5 years age gap maximum...
My family on one side can be officially tracked back to year 1215, when the holy german emperor bestowed a title on them; on the other side a bit later, the family bought an entire county.
My uncle still bears the name of the famous forefathers from 1215.
I find it useful to put things in a broader context, because we all have a tendency to form opinions based on our own background. Recently we have had a lot of talk about religion here, which I think hasn't been wasted time (though it on occasions has been rather specialised). Most cultures, subcultures or nations form their society/group on certain fundamental ideas, often from a specific religious ethic. You don't have to be religious as such to use this ethic code, it's just build into your society at a secular level.
Many western countries have f.ex. christian morality as a base. Whether you like it or not, it's in your luggage.
But I feel, that religion as a topic has now reached a point, where we will go outside general interest, if we continue (this is after all not a forum of comparative religion). So I suggest, we add new tracks (anybody still interested in religion, please don't feel rejected, write more about it. I for one feel for this subject, but I don't want my personal prefences to overshadow other subjects).
This topic was started to create a place, where it is possible to post longer contributions.
Unfortunately I'm not omniscient, so I have today elsewhere asked for information concerning the former very big "free" datingsites. What happened to them and why? Maybe some of you have information about this. I think, the subject is interesting, because it can bring some some valuable light on the mechanisms of cyber-dating. Say, when I four years ago looked at Matchdoctor, I made an approximation, that there were about 60.000 UAW on the then "free" site. Now there are 60. Talk about mass-migration. In my cyber-dating days, the FSUW were very well informed of the emergence of new free dating-sites, and would move in slow waves from one place to another in their thousands. Has this phenomenon stopped completely?
Another interesting theme could be the collective psychology of FSUW. I've seen little serious discussion of this subject. I have personally found, that there exist some behavioural patterns common in FSUW. Patterns you usually don't see so pronounced in western women. In spite of FSUW's often good education, sense of humor, intelligence and interest in f.ex. art, they also have some less pleasant sides. Prominent amongst these is a lurking
dissatisfaction. They are chronically slightly querulous, always having a feud or two going on with friends or family. They are suspicious, can't take or give (you give too little, you're stingy; you give too much, you try to buy them). If you get a mumbled " ...'nk ..'u", you'll have to settle for that.
The words "please" or "sorry" seem to create the same problems. And then ofcourse the unrealistic ideas of materialistic expectations, and the way to get them fullfilled (but this has been discussed more at length from time to time).
Anybody, please!
"It seems quite courageous in some respects to have chosen to disconnect your electric, and yes I will say, eccentric as well. Did you get what you wanted from the experience?"
I got a lot. A stronger body (doing things by hand takes a lot of sweating. How about cutting 5-6 cubic meters of firewood with a handsaw every fall).
A healthy respect for natural resources. You don't waste, when things are difficult to replenish.
Much knowledge about low-grade technology. Very interesting. Sometimes old-time methods are far, far superior to modern, if you look at the time, money and resources involved.
A good look at my own psychology. It's a challenge with all these unknown problems turning up.
And how to live celibate. Few women would accept such a life.
And at a deeper level: A good insight in how nature functions. If you start with sentimental, romantic ideas about "going back to nature" as the big answer to life, you either have to change very quick or go back to the city. The later is what the bigger part of
"the green wave" people did after a few years.
There are many things I can tell you about "my" people. I put this in quotes, because the generalization of Native Americans is similar to generalizing Europeans.
The US victory in the Pacific in WWII was greatly aided by a group of Navaho who were known as "code talkers". Basically, all they did was speak Navaho and the Japanese couldn't figure it out. Standing orders were that should there be a risk of being captured, they were to kill themselves or someone else was to kill them to prevent the Japanese from learning the code. Their importance and existence has only recently been made public.
Here's another interesting fact. Prior to 1924, these men and others like them were not even "officially" citizens of the US! My grandfather was 14 yo before he was officially recognized as a US citizen!!!
At one point in the 80's it became chic to be part Indian. Cherokee is one of the better known tribes and so many people suddenly, overnight, became part Cherokee. I can honestly say that my maternal grandfather was Cherokee. I however consider myself to be Nantikoke which is a tribe from the Delaware water gap region and the bloodline of my father.
Although, my Cherokee heritage may have something to do with my subconscious choices of women I have been involved with? In the 1600's many Swedes were known to have made settlements in the Virginia area which is Cherokee land. It's said there was alot of voluntary fraternization and even marriages and families started. Perhaps this is why I have long had a "thing" for the classic blonde haired, blue eyed scandanavian type?
Native American issues aren't very popular with the US government and therefore are swept under the carpet as quickly and quietly as possible. What Hitler did to the Jews is a Sunday afternoon stroll in the park compared to what the US did, and there was no one to tell them it was wrong. From the Trail of Tears,(which was a death march from one reservation to another thousands of miles away in the middle of winter)to Wounded Knee,(a massive slaughter, mostly of women and children) to the US goverment providing typhoid infected blankets to keep the children warm, the word genocide comes to mind.
Scalping was often depicted in movies as a brutality conjured up by the sick, heathenistic mind of the "savages", and it actually was. During a time when bounty hunters were being paid by the government and some private firms such as the railroads, to kill as many Indians as they could, proof of the kill was demanded for payment. Being to hard to drag the whole body back, taking the scalp became the method of choice as evidence that you had killed an Indian. My people simply picked up on this practice.
quote:Maybe because M?tis and indians were not anyone's sock puppets; I read about carpet baggers and Africans, but not about carpet baggers and Indians.
Indians were fighting for freedom in the land that was handed down to them by their fathers. The blacks, were captured and brought thousands of miles to a strange land with no way of ever getting home, which may account for the difference between our approach to the situation. Indians were still free and fighting a war for survival. Blacks were consider to generally be wild animals that could be broken and trained. Indians were looked at as wild animals who could not be broken and therefore had to be eliminated.
Let's face it, with what I have ranted about here today,(and it's only a small part of the whole story) it's no wonder the US government considers Native Americans to still be a blackeye, and why they try to hide it! The greatest and freest nation in the world tried to exterminate the people who were native to this land. How do they say "I sorry" for that?
"Let's face it, with what I have ranted about here today,(and it's only a small part of the whole story) it's no wonder the US government considers Native Americans to still be a blackeye, and why they try to hide it! The greatest and freest nation in the world tried to exterminate the people who were native to this land. How do they say "I sorry" for that?"
While this is one of the more atrocious examples, as bad or worse
than what Hitler, Mao and Stalin did, it is sadly a common phenomenon.
Even small Denmark did something like this to the greenland eskimos, when Greenland was a danish colony.
I think, that most races, nations or cultures some time in their history have done this.
I'm not blind to the sufferings implied, and distance myself as much as possible from such behaviour, but I feel, that finding some kind of answers to lessen the tragedies in the future, is the most realistic way. As much as we would like to, we can't undo past horrors.
As PeopleS here has done, giving information is a natural first step. I believe that communication between different cultures could possibly be the next, if it's done in a sensible way. But greed is always a factor to count with.
I agree that we may have wandered from the basic topic a bit, but as I have said, I find it so refreshing to exchange thoughts with you guys in such a non-judgemental way.
I'm abit younger than you and ham, 44 yo, and have only been involved in FSU/MOB dating for less than a year, but I have unfortunately seen a lot in that relatively brief period of time.
quote:Say, when I four years ago looked at Matchdoctor, I made an approximation, that there were about 60.000 UAW on the then "free" site. Now there are 60. Talk about mass-migration. In my cyber-dating days, the FSUW were very well informed of the emergence of new free dating-sites, and would move in slow waves from one place to another in their thousands. Has this phenomenon stopped completely?
I think that FSU/MOB scamming in general has a lot to do with the lack of "real" women on the free sites. Now a days, it is widely thought that these sites are the first bastion of the scammer. It's free, so there's a wider profit margin. It's easy to place an ad, you or I could steal photos from the internet and place an ad on one of these sites in about 30 minutes, and have some shmuck sending a message within an hour. As a matter of fact, I'm going to do it when I finish this post.
The real girls have been slowly coralled toward sites like Anastasia, Global and UA, because of the success story propoganda of the sites them selves. Why do the guys go to these sites? The same reasons, free sites are scam sites, but at UA we can show you letters from "real" men like you who have found their true love through us. It's your basic snowball rolling down the mountain. The guys are on the pay sites because the girls are on the pay sites, and the girls are on the pay sites because that's where the guys are.
I found an interesting little thread I'd like to share. I posted it on the UA forum already. http://stop-scammers.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=919. I think it may help to explain a few things about the translating pay sites like UA and others.
I would believe that some of the negatives displayed by FSUW's is in part from only recently finding a world outside of the Soviet shield. You may say that the younger girls wouldn't really remember what that was like, but it was only 17 years ago that Ukraine declared it's independence. A 25 yo girl would have been 8 yo then and very cognoscente of what was going on, if not in specifics, in a general way.
As to their tendancies to take thing to one extreme or another, I still say it's a woman thing, regardless of their national origin. Perhaps the social climate of FSU countries exacerbates the issue, but I think the basis of it all stems from being a woman. Or, perhaps FSUW's are naturally bi-polar???
PS Again, you have out clicked me! Touche!
quote:Scalping was often depicted in movies as a brutality conjured up by the sick, heathenistic mind of the "savages", and it actually was. During a time when bounty hunters were being paid by the government and some private firms such as the railroads, to kill as many Indians as they could, proof of the kill was demanded for payment. Being to hard to drag the whole body back, taking the scalp became the method of choice as evidence that you had killed an Indian. My people simply picked up on this practice.
want to laugh?
They used to do the same to French survivors in Acadia: killing them and scalping them under the cover of anti-indian laws (Indians were friends with the French anyways ). In 1755 the English rounded up all the Acadians (white French settlers ) they could find and "shipped" them to various destinations, to create confusion (France, Louisiana, Malvinas, Boston etc ).
Too bad Steven Spielberg won't be filming a big budget extra-sad hollywood epic about how many of these ships never reached any shore, and what happened to their captive passengers.
One Acadian (abb? Leloutre ) settled with the Indians and wrought havoc among the English for a long time; Acadians who escaped were chased like animals, lost their properties and saw their religion banned (serment d'all?geance ).
Only in the 1960-70s did French get officially recognized (to a point, anyways ) and new Brunswick is the only bilingual Province in Canada (law 88 is now part of the Canadian constitutional corpus ); only in 1960 did an Acadian serve as NB Prime minister.
Calls for mass reparations England should pay to Acadia, by Acadian leaders these last decades, were laughed off air as sheer nonsense.
Billions keep raining over African interest groups of more (or rather less) adamant morals...
quote:As to their tendancies to take thing to one extreme or another, I still say it's a woman thing, regardless of their national origin. Perhaps the social climate of FSU countries exacerbates the issue, but I think the basis of it all stems from being a woman. Or, perhaps FSUW's are naturally bi-polar???
when we talk about FSUWs, we ought to qualify our statement reflecting that we talk about CYBERFSUWs, that is FSUWs we meet online.
I said many times I hold the WWW/LD dating scene in poor esteem.
Maybe I'm just the-real-loser-who-can't-get-it-right, or maybe (as I think) the WWW/LD dating scene is like those "twilight" suspense/horror telepictures...
No ham, I think the question here really is about FSUW's as a whole, and not merely those we encounter in cyberspace. Is there really such a big difference between them and the women of our respective countries, or any non-FSU nation in general? Or is this something that truly is a product of the exposure of only a few of these women to the FSU/MOB world, and because these are the ones we "meet", this becomes our perception of them all?
Or having read the post http://stop-scammers.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=919, is it something we now perceive as reality after so much exposure to the scam artists that plague the FSU/MOB world?
It's an ineresting topic, considering the personal FSU/MOB experiences that each of us has had. I foresee three completely different veiws on this which will all make sense.
Not having made the trip yet, my veiw is possibly slighted toward the more optimistic. I would like to believe that this is a misconception about FSUWs and that I won't find this at all to be the rule, but rather the exception.
"I think that FSU/MOB scamming in general has a lot to do with the lack of "real" women on the free sites. Now a days, tt is widely thought that these sites are the first bastion of the scammer."
In my days it was also thought, that free sites were hatchingplaces of scammers, and this opinion was often put out on anti-scam forums. But this is quite contrary to my own experience. Of the hundreds of mails I recieved, max half a dozen were the obvious "My soulmate, I already loved you, before I knew of your existence. Please send money, so I can continue to pay for the rehabilitation of my criminally insane family". And the photos used by such scammers could actually be quite funny. One with an african girl, who had one hand demonstratively put far down inside her jeans, stating she lived in some african nation, but nonetheless having a signboard with swedish text in the background. Another from Russia, where the girl had forgotten to take off her weddingring on the photo (she being a shy little maiden and all, on her way to her first date ever. Me).
There was a kind of small-scale dumb crookedness about it.
But apart from these it wasn't actually so difficult to find real women. Of all those I decided to correspond with, I never got a suggestion (direct or indirect) to send money. Every single of my mails were answered adequately, obviously without translaters in most cases, because the english could be rather primitive, and then slowly get better the way you would expect, from someone learning it. Some of these contacts lasted a few years, and even contained small quibbles of personal character. I had a lot of telephonecontacts. So the above-mentioned theory, that free sites were worse, isn't correct. At least not for me. Besides it was very easy to have a suspected scammer removed on a free site. You just had to write and ask for it with very little documentation, and it would usually be done inside 24 hours.
WHEREAS the paysites were fishy. Too glossy, and the women would show much more scam-characteristics. Assembly-line mails, forgetting when and who they were corresponding with, being irregular with answers and profiles giving idolized descriptions of themselves.
Ofcourse I can't base any general idea from my own experiences alone, but considering how naive I really am, it's surprising, that I got away with only one real bad experience. My pro-dating UA "fianc?e". I even only lost app. $1000 in a three month period.
How many of these real women, who would have turned out to be pro-daters, I don't know. I knew already then, that their main motive was a green card or equalent, but few of them tried to hide the fact. Some of them got married to a WM eventually, and would continue to send me the odd neutral mail, telling me details from their married life, asking how I was doing etc.
Your "snowball-start-avalanche" could be correct, but I'm a bit doubtful. The grapevine telegraph is well developed in FSU, and the present general attack on scam-agencies should be common knowledge by now, scaring away the women.
Well, I honestly don't know; but hope to get as much information as possible. So I'll just keep an open mind.
quote:In my days it was also thought, that free sites were hatchingplaces of scammers, and this opinion was often put out on anti-scam forums. But this is quite contrary to my own experience.
But this substantiates what I had proposed, that the propoganda made it appear as though these sites were filled with scammers and not a place for "real" ladies to place their ads. So in turn, these girls went to the pay sites to post their ads and so the agency scams took hold as the status quo.
Having a varied selection of bridal candidates to chose from, this naturally attracts the male clientele who, also force fed the free site/ scam site pill, ultimately foot the bills. Now I once again refer to the epiphany revealed in the link I previously posted here. Once an agency has a girl, real or otherwise, what the translator says goes. Here's a scenario that just popped into my head... "real" girl decides to leave the agency... "You can't leave, read the contract you signed. We'll throw you in jail... You can't leave, you may get raped and murdered... Okay, go, we'll list you as a scammer and you'll never find a man... Okay, leave, we "own" your photos and can do whatever we want with them..."
ham has talked about the vast UA profile archive on several occasions. All of these profiles can't be fake can they? But they certainly aren't all real, at least not any longer.
I think a large number of "real" girls had their profiles "stolen" by agencies over the years, some under duress. I also think that the big agencies may have a hand in spreading the dogma that free sites are scammer havens in order to scare men to go them.
swede, you like conspiracy theories, chew on that one a while. I was going to say that I look forward to reading what your mind spits out, but we did agree there would be no spitting here!
Hi PeopleS,
sorry I misunderstood you. I first believed, you meant that the free sites were described as scammer-infected by scammees. But your theory about the paysites miscrediting the free sites sounds very interesting. Not only because it appeals to my conspiracy-buff part, but also because it really does explain a lot of things, if it's correct.
Having decided to become a benevolent misanthrope years ago, almost no amount of human repetitive stupidity ought to surprise me, but the background/origin for present scam-agency discussion I put on level with some of the recent US presidential elections.
When I started my cyber-dating period, I knew absolutely nothing of the finer points of the art. My first nigerian "trillion-zillion dollars are yours, IF you..........", I simply didn't understand. I believed, it was a joke, or someone who'd forgotten his medication that day. My first few Lolitas I responded to with grandfatherly good advices, but the PAYSITES started warningsigns in me immediately. The similarity to toothpaste commercials were so big, that it should have scared anyone away. But then, there probably exist people who believe in toothpaste commercials also. I shiver just by the thought of it.
"O, woe,... O, woe". Having a firewoodstove, I also have a supply of ash, which I will sprinkle over myself.
Now I feel better.
Considering the amount of money being spent on cyber-dating, it is reasonable to believe that no methods to further your own interests as site-owner are too corrupt. Being purely speculative now, it would be possible to imagine, that such business would follow the common pattern of big money. You make monopoles, cartels and buy competing companies. I'm beginning to understand Ham better now.
Later we'll maybe even have the men in black around here to tell us to shut up (like some russians did with my friend, who tried to open an anti-scam site).
Maybe it would be something for our cybergenius swazzie to look at. He seems to at home with stuff like that.
Personally I wouldn't stand a chance to do research on this subject. As it is, I am at the limit of my technical ability, when I try to print out something. I'm quite sure, that my computer will bite me, first chance it gets.
quote:I'm beginning to understand Ham better now.
ham often seems bitter, but he makes a lot of good points about a great many things. Something he has mentioned, and I have found supporting evidence, is the fact that so many FSU/MOB sites have ties to one another. UA is a part of a larger conglomerate, just like Anastasia, RBrides/ Site2Date, and so many other less talked about sites. So the monopoly theory has it's basis to be sure.
In someways, FSU/MOB scamming is like the tobacco industry. It relies on new blood to keep the machine going. Tobacco needs fresh meat, because their older user have either quit, or died. Scammers need fresh meat because guys like us have become hard to fool, so it's the guy that's a newbie that is prime for the plucking. The problem is warning them. They have to look for sites like this, or stumble across it as I did.(Fortunately before I lost money.)
One problem is that so many FSU/MOB sites have there own little scammers lists. Some are fairly well known scammers. Probably independents who refused to conform with the pay sites and their bureaucracy. Others may be "real" girls who were blacklisted by the pay sites for wishing to leave? Either way, having a blacklist does give the ilussion of legitimacy to the rest of the girls on the site, and the site in general by saying "See, we don't like scammers either." So now that they have your trust, it's time to rake in your money for unlimited correspondence.
If you like conspiracies, try this one... Local governments, politicians and/or police are in on it and get their cut. Possible? Why is it so hard to prosecute?
Think about the number of sites out there, and then think of how many guys are paying $29.95 (for a basic membership) to the guys buying endless unlimited correspondences. Millions are going into the FSU every day! I'm sure it's enough to buy a cop or a judge in Kherson or Lugansk.
swazzie is like a pitbull. He snaps at every conspiracy theory out there with such enthusiasm! He may have a future as a cyber-cop!
"If you like conspiracies, try this one... Local governments, politicians and/or police are in on it and get their cut. Possible? Why is it so hard to prosecute?"
Aaaaa..... Again we seem be in cosmic accordance.
There's absolutely nothing like information and/or disinformation, sometimes disguised as each other, to bring us onward to whatever reality, which may be floating around out there. It's like first drinking a pint of "Old Moonshine" best brand whisky, matured 20 minutes, and then go into a mirror cabinet, successively believing every single relexion you see of yourself. You come out on the other end either stone paranoid, or so wise, that people will pass to the other side of the street, when they see you coming.
It's doubtful, if many of us reach perfect understanding, but it's my experience, that you can fill out the gaps with humour. Or at least making the effort to do so. That could be the reason why the FSU-culture has such a lot of humour in it. They are not short of gaps.
If my own feeble experiments in humour isn't quite up to the mark, don't let it discourage you. There's always Jim Carrey to lean back on.
When the old man made things as they are (not as they could or should have been), he was careful to make most of it into chinese boxes. E.g. finding correct answers isn't that difficult. It's asking the right questions.
"Have you stopped beating your wife?"
On our way to understanding we need lubrication. Booze, meditation, humour or other moderate escapist techniques can help. But drooling over photos of UA virtual brides is like trying to put out fire with gasolin.
I'm out on trial, and they DID warn me about drinking coffee. Promise I will activate, what goes for my intellect, in my next post. If I have irritated anyone, please accept my apologies.
I have very little to add to this thread, other than to comment from my own personal experiences with FSU women from many countries, both as partners, friends of partners, acquaintances and friends from my travels and my Orthodox church.
I haven't actively looked for anyone on-line because I can assure you that what most of the men here seek does not exist. FSU women are not better or worse than Western women. They seem different upon first encounter, but by the time the smoke clears you'll have a real pain in the ass on your hands that is no different that some chain smoking Lolita from your favorite watering hole or pub. You can save yourself a lot of time and money. FSU gals come with a lot of baggage, families, special needs, language barriers, unfamiliarity with Western customs, laws, and practices.
What do I mean by that? You take it for granted that we've all watched the same Western media and read the same Western literature. We actually have a common cultural nomenclature that includes certain unspoken rules about social interractions, small talk, affection, and sexual attraction. These are a roadmap that the FSU/MOB has never seen and has little interest in learning. It's not that they are all argumentative, boorish, materialistic bitches, but that is how they are often perceived, because they don't understand the unspoken and unwritten rules of Western relationships.
In case you wonder, I am not a "bitter lonely guy." I am in a highly frustrating, more than slightly dysfunctional relationship with a FSU woman. I love her and hate her at the same time. When it's good, it's great. When it's horrible, you don't want to know about it.
If you accept it for what it is, you can probably endure what is required. If you go into it with false expectations or the mistaken belief that you can change this woman, you are in for a huge disappointment.
I consider myself the flagman waving to warn of the approaching trainwreck. If you apply the brakes now, you may avoid derrailment. If not? Welcome to the club.
quote: No ham, I think the question here really is about FSUW's as a whole, and not merely those we encounter in cyberspace. Is there really such a big difference between them and the women of our respective countries, or any non-FSU nation in general? Or is this something that truly is a product of the exposure of only a few of these women to the FSU/MOB world, and because these are the ones we "meet", this becomes our perception of them all?
Yes, there is a [u]big</u> difference.
First, we are talking about a minute percentage of women who actually use dating sites; I mean women who -however for little time or at a time or another - were SINCERELY interested in SERIOUS relationships...SINCERELY-SERIOUS. The rest are (much as in the case of men ) novelty seekers, bored people wanting to kill time, and the wild bunch of braggarts, pretenders, clowns; next you get people with fraudulent intentions...good-time-girls, scammers, visa raiders, prostitutes and a fat share of hairy Igors.
Mistaking this pool of people for "the female population of the FSU" is like mistaking some clown who claims online to be a millionaire, or to have won three oscars with people you see during a shopping trip at the mall.
I am not the best and not the brightest; I am not a millionaire; I won no oscars and I am no world traveler, either, although I know what living abroad for extended stays is; I am an ordinary "headache gray" person with no praiseworthy looks, jobs, money or status...
I do my homework.
I have "studied", if you call it that, this scene, read INS reports, FSU & US etc census pages, and more, and posted my findings on some forums.
I think people should know the ground before jumping in head first.
Cit Prometheus:
"I have very little to add to this thread, other than to comment from my own personal experiences with FSU women from many countries, both as partners, friends of partners, acquaintances and friends from my travels and my Orthodox church."
This is probably the most valuable contribution, we can get here. Nothing compares to experience.
"In case you wonder, I am not a "bitter lonely guy." I am in a highly frustrating, more than slightly dysfunctional relationship with a FSU woman. I love her and hate her at the same time. When it's good, it's great.
Sounds like the average FSUW-involved relationship. Fortunately my dear wife and I live together only short periods at a time. Otherwise it would have been me, writing the above.
" When it's horrible, you don't want to know about it."
Truer words don't exist. But I guess PeopleS must have experienced something like this with his heroin ###**%& ex. The impressive thing about some FSUW is, that they can do this without heroin. But I don't want to scare you with details, many of you are still young and need some years with innocense.
"I do my homework. I have "studied", if you call it that, this scene, read INS reports, FSU & US etc census pages, and more, and posted my findings on some forums. I think people should know the ground before jumping in head first."
That's what I meant by "understanding" you. Your homework and your conclusions. I did not make an analysis of your character or motives.
I respect good workmanship, when I see it (in spite of my playing fool sometimes).
We need this kind of putting light on the problem more than just
cool, chat-shorthand language warm air.
quote:We need this kind of putting light on the problem more than just
well, a proverb says: if you really want to ask the question, you must be prepared to hear the answer.
Most men just aren't.
They want the dream as agencies sell it and are open to discuss only trivialities, but ultimately hair must grow back and a dollar turn into a thousand.
Sorry, folks.
A good man i met on a forum seemed at first to take a reality check, but persisted in the end, was scammed again and ended in the news...go figure.
Hey Prometheus, I'm a bit surprised that you haven't popped in here more often. It's a great place to have an open exchange without fear of being bashed over the head and should you coose to use a few eight syllable words, no one will crisize you. Oh course, we leave our supercapes and tights at the door along with our millions and that spitting habit![:o)]
quote:FSU women are not better or worse than Western women.
This actually confirms what I have felt all along. Women are women. Yes, there are certainly going to be cultural differences, but the underlying beast is still basically the same no matter where she's from. I don't expect to go to Ukraine and find Donna Reid, June Cleaver, or even Lisa Douglas and as you say, part of the problem is that there are some guys who do expect to find this type of woman. Again, it's a matter of propoganda and salemanship to create and perpetuate this ilussion.
quote:Yes, there is a big difference.
As I read your post, it seems you mean there's a difference between the facade of FSU/MOB dating site women, but as I believe, NOT so much of a difference between "real" everyday FSUWs and the women of any western nation, with the exeption of the basic cultural differences?
quote:Truer words don't exist. But I guess PeopleS must have experienced something like this with his heroin ###**%& ex.
My personal situation is that I CAN have near infinite patience. Maybe too much??? I fully understand that I am going to meet a woman and not Betty Crocker. I also understand that there will be cultural differences that she will have to adjust to should all go well and it's decide that she will come to the US. I make no claims to be all knowing or all understanding, but I can foresee some of the future problems that may occur and have openly discussed them with "my girl".
I even wrote to her, basically trying to scare her about it. Our age difference... I've said before that she's only 25 and I'm 44 and that she's actually a few years younger than my targeted age group. I asked her if she was sure about it and she replied it doesn't bother her. She's graduating school and will have a degree in design, but as I told her it may be hard for her to find a job in her field, especially because her English isn't exactly fluent. She said she understands and won't become frustrated. Culture shock... she says she's prepared and knew what she was doing when she placed her ad.
I give credit for my thinking to ask these questions to what I've learned on these forums. She says she's ready, we'll know in a month and a half if that is true.
quote:well, a proverb says: if you really want to ask the question, you must be prepared to hear the answer. Most men just aren't.
A very true statement, except, I like to believe, here in this forum. I thank all of you for what I've learned.
Talking about similarities and differences, it's important to remember, that it's impossible to pinpoint such ideas down to individual level, in all details.
We are moving in an area of generalisations, approximations, statistics.
But starting with animals, I guess, that most would agree, that a human being IS different (physically and psychologically) from f.ex. a dog or Schroedinger's or Brunod's cat. There's something specifically special about cats, dogs and humans.
Then, inside the human species, you have men and women, with different chromosomes. We have blacks, pinks, browns, yellows and even the greens (said to be living inside the earth). Each group having their own special genetic characteristics. And a further subdivision into social cultures gives more diversion.
Each of all these groups have something, which is partly common, and at the same time special for that group. All the way down to the individual.
Most people, unfamiliar with scandinavian culture, would probably make a sweeping generalisation. And that is true in some respects. But there are also very big differences. The danish are the "latinos" of scandinavia, relatively speaking open and mercurial, the swedish are reserved, slow and fundamentally honest, the finish reliable, and the norwegians provincially nationalistic, charming in an innocent way.
You'll find the same situation if you pass the border from Latvia to Lithuania. And in USA, going from one state, race or subculture to the next.
It's the same in FSU and it's satellite countries. There's something which is distinctively slavic, different from chinese, caucasian etc. But then there is a big difference INSIDE this group. Russians are not the same as polish, indigenous ukrainians or Belarusians, though they share some characteristics.
And it is those common slavic traits I talk about, when I put out my opinions here. I've had contact with a cool, reliable, non-scamming belarusian woman, and also with scheming, sociopathic danish women. But still I feel it's possible to make generalisations.
It seems, that my last suggestion for a new psychobabble-topic hasn't been recieved with any great enthusiasm. So I'll try a new angle.
You often meet the opinion, that a very big part of the present FSU culture is based on the former political situation. Personally I'm not so sure of the extent of this theory. While Poland (from where I have a considerable part of my information), as far as I know never was a real SU state, it was nonetheless a satelite, and the Sovjet influence was strong, so it can give some clues.
After the fall of SU, you would see a distinct tendency in Poland. A strong positive attitude towards the west, and an openly negative attitude towards Russia. Often bordering on a hate, which can be compared to what some muslim countries or groups feel about USA. You will meet this dislike for russians everywhere in the indigenious cultures in the russian sphere of influence.
But at the same time, communism/socialism is still an influential political factor in some of these countries. For them socialism is not quite the same as the russian dominated sovjet. Some of my former polish friends/girlfriends are staunch socialists, but at the same time Russia/Sovjet haters.
For me all highly centralised ideologies, be they political, religious or economical, will very quick turn into "empires" with a constant need of expansion. The alpha males (or occasionally females) buy the support of the faithful supporters (eg army, secret police, propaganda makers etc) by sanctioning the plundering of other groups. The followers of such ideologies are told, that they do the right thing, because they are spreading the message of this god, this "correct" economical theory etc.
Before the Sovjet period, Russia was expansive in the name of the czar, in the Sovjet period in the name of Marx, and now, what will be the next??? Scamming export?
It is my theory, that this longtime standing status as "empire" have influenced the russian culture, down to the individual. The satelite populations around Russia often describe the average russian as haughty, arrogant and unreliable. This has some bearings on the cyber-dating situation. It could be, that the further you get away from the heart of the russian"enigmatic" soul, the bigger are your chances of success of a functional relationship.
This could sound, as if I'm a russian-hater. That's far from the truth, I have a great respect for many aspects of russian culture, and I love having contact with them. But there is a certain limit, which I personally wouldn't pass. Call it cultural differences, if you please, but I have some integrated ideas about how I want my life to function, as f.ex. paying my bills in time, following a general set of social agreements (whether I like them or not) and trying to treat other living beings with some respect. I'm not quiiiite sure, this would fit into the russian model.
quote:But at the same time, communism/socialism is still an influential political factor in some of these countries. For them socialism is not quite the same as the russian dominated sovjet. Some of my former polish friends/girlfriends are staunch socialists, but at the same time Russia/Sovjet haters.
Poland's territory was "partitioned" three times in the XVIII century; everybody got a slice of the former elective kingdom/commonwealth (famed philosophers Rousseau & Bonnot de Mably had been asked to suggest a model of constitution for the Polish-lithuanian commonwealth by count Wielhorski ). In 1921 the USSR invaded Poland, but when communist partisans emerged from the basements with paraphenalia, they found the French army instead.
I think in today's eastern Europe faith in "socialism" or communism, besides a few nostalgic people, is fostered by the very crooked nature of democracy.
"Peace" icon and "democratic martyr" Walesa in Poland (so iconic he received the nobel prize ) established a looting and crooked regime; as a result, the next election called ex-communists in power. Eltsin was another "democratic icon ", even if he had bombed the parliament; he established a crooked regime based on personal profit and was later evicted to make room for authoritarian Putin.
quote:The satelite populations around Russia often describe the average russian as haughty, arrogant and unreliable.
Such empires were "pacified zones"; we now understand the error americans made pushing for the dissolution of european colonial empires.
The latest trend & smartest idea Americans have is to occupy these countries on their own, ignoring they'll run out of funds or out of political viability very fast, while stirring unrest not even Hitler felt ready to face.
The above description can be applied to americans and any other "metropolitan" visiting "colonies" ( half Europe is still occupied by american military...for our own good, of course ).
I remember reading the case of French soldiers who blew a bridge in jest or something in Africa, botched it and killed many Africans but their only retribution was a reprimand.
We can find alike cases involving Americans, Russians and other "imperialists".
The "for your own good" rhetoric is getting stale, as the polemic between Russia and Estonia recently showed.
Estonia removed a USSR military monument as a symbol of the USSR invasion, and all Putin could say was rambling about "but we fought the Nazis and therefore our actions are non reprehensible".
"I think in today's eastern Europe faith in "socialism" or communism, besides a few nostalgic people, is fostered by the very crooked nature of democracy".
For sure, both considered as an intellectual description of political systems and by my personal knowledge of the individual post-socialists I've met in Poland, the phenomenon of socialism there can largely be described as discontention. The same people could possibly have been arch-conservatives in other political constellations.
I'm not swooning with delight either, when "democracy" is mentioned, but the long and complicated history of utopian dreams hasn't come up with the perfect answer sofar. Guess we'll have to live with democracy for a while yet.
The problem is, that in democracy the sheepwalkers will have their say also, and BEING sheepwalkers, they react exactly as if they are living in a centralised regime (dictatorship).
The old american protestsong comes to mind: "Our leaders are the wisest men, that's why we elect them again and again".
Though personally sympathetic to the idea of anarchy in theory (strong, free, personally responsible individuals), I'm convinced this is a pipedream. It has been tried in several versions, and it never functions.
Believe it or not, even I have had a short period as a "politician" being the initiater and boss at local level for a once growing liberal national party in Sweden. Half of the originally participating individuals were there, because they were opportunists. Another push towards my general misanthropic attitude. I left very fast.
But I do not think it would be fair or meaningful to go out public with an exclusive "woe" message. There are no gods or ETs fixing our problems. If we are not sheepwalkers (whom I consider a lost cause in most cases), the only thing we can do is to hang on to whatever decency, common sense, wisdom, moral or compassion we may have, and let it be a part of our lives. It DOES matter.
Maybe we don't see many big steps forward in the human community because of this, but the results, if such were to stop would be disastrous. The "good" people, trying communication, diplomacy, understanding, tolerance as they best can, are stemming the otherwise inevitable everybody-fighting-everybody.
Ofcourse the whole thing about "good" people doesn't mean anything to the powers that be. But "good" people are officially "role-models", and as such have certain possibilites, which even the common monomaniac dictator is reluctant to touch. If you behave OK to your neighbours and friends, you belong to a group, which as a whole is slightly immune from the AVERAGE deranged politician with a powersyndrom. Exceptions exist, such as Hitler, Stalin etc., but they will usually fight each other also, so "the inevitability of history" (as it's so poetically called) will eventually take care of them too.
Remember we do after all live in a predatory universe, we were not born with a guarantee for a happy life. If we want it better, we'll have to do it ourselves.
I KNOW, I'm naive. So please enlighten me to better ways.
What actually took place in the SU, is an abomination of communism/ scocialism as prescribed by Lenin. In it's purest form, this scocio-econic-political philosophy actually sounds very enticing. Kind of Three Musketeers like... "All for one and one for all", but the thing here is that "all" must believe in it and follow the philosophy for it to work. Obviously, this wasn't the case.
Soviet communism was more akin to feudalism of 14th century England or France, thus the need for the KGB to scare the people back in line. There are many Russians who weren't very happy with the way the system was run. The people of the other FSU states have a gripe with a man long dead. Many Americans would have some pretty foul things to say to me for this next statement, but I think history has proven my point already.
Franklin Delano Roosevelt did as much to help create the Soviet Union as "Ucnle" Joe Stalin. At the end of WWII (in Europe, since the war continued in the Pacific theater), Churchill tried desperately to covince FDR that allowing Stalin's armies to occupy eastern Europe was a grievous mistake. It seems old "Whinny" was right in his assessment of the probable outcome of the occupation. He soon lost his job! FDR was a tired, dying old man with little fight left at this point and only wanted it all to end. He lost his stomach for it all, and his decicision made the SU.
George S. Patton, THE most tenacious, arrogant, self-confident, strong-willed, bulldog of a general this country has ever known, basically was fired for being so bold as to publically side with Churchill on the issue.
Still, the influence that life in these occupied states under SU control IS apparent. It's reasonable for there to be some dislike of the people who are perceived as those who are responsible for the occupation of what was once, and is once again a sovereign nation, though the hatred may be misplaced upon the people as opposed to the old regime.
As for democracy, it only works with the help of some socialist add-ons. Every individual has the "opportunity" to better him or herself and to strive to the highest level. Sounds good on paper. But, in the eariest days, scoial class limited many, and still their decendants struggle to overcome the difficulties that faced their great-great grand fathers.
Welfare and social security (programs that got their start during the FDR administration), help to alliviate some of the scocio-economic strife for the out of work and the elderly, but not all. Such scocial programs also breed those who find creative ways to "scam" the government out of free money.
quote:The "good" people, trying communication, diplomacy, understanding, tolerance as they best can, are stemming the otherwise inevitable everybody-fighting-everybody.
Unfortunately, the "good" people don't have the political clout to accomplish squat! Jesus Christ couldn't get elected to town council spewing his peace and love message... "What's in it for me?"
Being a global community, as our communication proves, it would take massive changes in every government worldwide to effect change without military intervention, which would only lead to another dictatorship and oppression. Again, I refer to Lenin's communism. Such social harmony can only be realized should all agree of their own accord.:(
"though the hatred may be misplaced upon the people as opposed to the old regime."
I only refer to, what I heard in Poland. According to this, the individual russians often misused their positions of power, as is a common behaviour of any colonial military or civic personnal. But my impression is, that this hate goes much deeper and further back than just the SU period. Supposedly the germans should be equally abhorred, but they are slightly better tolerated than the russians.
"Welfare and social security (programs that got their start during the FDR administration), help to alliviate some of the scocio-economic strife for the out of work and the elderly, but not all. Such scocial programs also breed those who find creative ways to "scam" the government out of free money".
As you probably know, Scandinavia has some of the most developed public wellfare programs in the world. Which is very fine. But you are correct in pointing out the possibilities of scamming the system. For a while is was so bad here in Sweden and Denmark, that you openly could refuse taking a job at all (even when a suitable one was offered) and still get almost the same in dole as you had working. I know of people, who lived this way ten years or more, never lifting a finger.
"Unfortunately, the "good" people don't have the political clout to accomplish squat! Jesus Christ couldn't get elected to town council spewing his peace and love message... "What's in it for me?"
My point is exactly that; you can get things done, without sullying yourself with politics. Jesus (or his PR group) succeeded well, without him being a politician personally, didn't they? Also Buddha, Krishna and Lao-tzu (he actually was offered a political job, but turned it down). And these guys are rather wellknown. Politics isn't everything. Personally I have been relatively quiet, only a few newspaper interwievs and a couple of performances in radio and TV, but those projects I've been working on, have been growing silently and peacefully into major-interest-areas today. Absolutely not saying, I did this alone, but I was somewhat of a pioneer at local scandinavian level, and I've never made much noise. Things have a tendency to spread naturally, if they are functional.
"Again, I refer to Lenin's communism. Such social harmony can only be realized should all agree of their own accord".
Unfortunately this can be said of all utopian ideologies.
With no shame of being called elitist, I am convinced that sheepwalkers never create anything, when it comes to the point. They are just being manipulated, as even a majority of politicians are (told you I like conspiracies). The real players are those, who have real power. Moneypeople, religious leaders and dynasties with political connections. And they play the big chessgame of the world against their old opponents, the outsiders (=those who are immune to the indoctrination used on sheepwalkers).
quote:According to this, the individual russians often misused their positions of power, as is a common behaviour of any colonial military or civic personnal. But my impression is, that this hate goes much deeper and further back than just the SU period. Supposedly the germans should be equally abhorred, but they are slightly better tolerated than the russians.
I feel as though, as with any perceived oppressor, hatred by the oppressed will be shown to those who were the overlords. This hatred is then extended to the nation, and people of the oppressor as a whole. This hatred may multiply by the generations.
I look at the history of the US vs the USSR as an exsample of such histeria and propoganda, although fear, not oppression was the tool.
Now, as we have dispensed with the USSR, and begin to learn about the people, we in the US see they are not so different. However, because of the proximity and nature of the contact, it's understandable that the people of eastern Europe would hold such a grudge longer.
Also the fact of what you said about the individual, presents itself as the root of the whole USSR/ communist failure. As I said, and Lenin prescribed, there can be no individualism that exists without consent of the whole. Too many individuals took it upon themselves to do things for their own reasons, be they greed, glory. or some Freudian psychosis which was based in their hatred of their mother.
It's fairly easy to understand why the Russians would be hated above the Germans, since Germany invaded and destroyed these countries 60 plus years ago (and have since been rebuilt), but the USSR had been the oppressor for the past 50 or so years.
quote:My point is exactly that; you can get things done, without sullying yourself with politics. Jesus (or his PR group) succeeded well, without him being a politician personally, didn't they?
swede, as the story goes, Jesus got himself nailed to a cross for his efforts over 2,000 years ago and where are we all now for his sacrifice? The world revolves around POWER. Right and wrong play second fiddle, and I'm sure you know it. Sure the churches have some influence over their patronage, but politics is the worlds true "power" currency.
As the "lower scale" intellectual of our little group, I will once again refer to something I remember from a "Star Trek" movie which I feel is somewhat prophetic, and am sure was borrowed from some other greater philosopher, "The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few... or the one."
It's sad to say, but the needs, or the greed, of the few often determine the outcome for the many in our reality and these power brokers have done such a great job of selling themselves to all of us (worldwide) that it has become basically impossible to get rid of them for fear that all scocial kayos would ensue.
For ANY worldwide philosophy to exist, much more than a simple majority of the world's population would have to agrre, and that kind of world unity is not something we will see in our lifetimes without some form of divine intervention.
Now I propose to you a new traveler in our world... the "dreamwalker".
A few personal comments. First of all, you and Ham are probably more intelligent, than I am.This is not false modesty; some people play mouthorgan well (something I've tried to do for 40 years with very little success); some people can make beautiful paintings; some have patience with their nagging wifes. All of which I can't do either.
But most of us have some talents in some areas and not in other. My intellect is sufficient for my purposes, but not at genius level. I'm content with that. My talent is in seeing patterns/connections, where most only see parts. And I have for about 45 years pursued the idea of finding a meaningful pattern in existence, taking as many aspects (not only intellectual) into the "equation" as possible.
Ofcourse such a journey through life, done with awareness if possible, leaves traces. Those traces are, what I try to put out here. The exchanges of opinions we have, is for me not a question of convincing anyone, that I'm "right". It's just swapping information and possible conclusions, though a nice little peaceful discussion can be invigorating at times.
My lifelong search has brought me to many subjects and activities, not all of them associated with FSUW. And some of them definitely weird, as many people would define it. So maybe your dreamwalker isn't a complete stranger to me. But let's see, how you present him. I'm curious.
In a later post, I will return to this post from you. It contains a lot of very interesting points, where we can both stay on the ground, and also soar as eagles.
quote:George S. Patton, THE most tenacious, arrogant, self-confident, strong-willed, bulldog of a general this country has ever known, basically was fired for being so bold as to publically side with Churchill on the issue.
Well, a book from a noted british scholar ( Norman Davies, Sunday Times NOV 6, 2006 ) brings this point up exactly, about how the big time, overall WWII victor in Europe was the USSR. In fact, come think of it, Britain babbled about Poland's sovereignty and about how they would never allow Hitler (who by the way was STUPIDLY in love with Britain ) to challenge their status.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/article625175.ece?token=null&offset=0
So yes, Hitler had occupied nine countries in the beginning of the war, but Stalin had occupied five.
The war ends, the British & French empire collapse and Poland is as occupied as it was under Hitler (and until 1918 for ages ), plus a whole bunch of countries.
So western clowns like Churchill and Blum really botched it to the advantage of the USSR and USA, who were evidently not so in love with Britain as Hitler was.
Germany shared with Japan most of its technological breakthroughs, including jet airplanes etc, which the USA were attentive NOT to do with the USSR, but France & Britain as well.
quote:Scandinavia has some of the most developed public wellfare programs in the world.
i'd rather say "had"...during the 70s they were singing they'd never join the EEC, but later did as last resort (did they discover "cultural ties" only that late? Or was it seeking a share of EEC dole money? ).
quote:First of all, you and Ham are probably more intelligent, than I am.
intelligence has little to do with information.
i have studied all my life and will until i die.
Being "informed" (correctly) is what sets enlightened or wise people worlds apart from the gullible masses.
Information is everything and that is why governments put so much effort into controlling and distorting it.
One can be a natural genius and tell the square root of eight digit numbers in five seconds, but failing the correct information he might be a moron who thinks they invaded Iraq to bring porn cable TV, barber's shops & miniskirts in a truly solomonic and disinterested effort to obey "the guy upstairs" or whatever bollocks they are told, while only Nazis invaded countries out of greed and control thirst.
"i'd rather say "had"...during the 70s they were singing they'd never join the EEC, but later did as last resort (did they discover "cultural ties" only that late? Or was it seeking a share of EEC dole money? )."
Wellfare payments have (sensibly enough), gone down, and the rules are stricter. But it's still very generous and while the Swedish livngstandard doesn't top the world list anymore (the danish does), you can still make a decent living from dole or pension. But ofcourse people are grumbling. Poeple are always grumbling.
The reason for joining EU was not economical. Sweden pays about twice as much to EU, as it gets back (but then it's sometimes difficult to trust information, you get from swedish authorities. The neo-stalinistic influences in swedish political life for the last half of the 20th century, still has echos. We've been very close to dictatorship in reality, and the habitual twisting of information is a hard habit to lay off).
The real reason for Sweden (and possibly Denmark) to join EU, was that the "politically correct" openness to refugees was being more and more troublesome. It turned out to be too expensive, no functional integrationprograms existed, and the indigenous populations protested more and more loudly in various ways. Few established politicians dared openly suggest a restriction (those who did were hung out as racist or neo-nazis), so they used EU regulations for non-european immigration to hide behind.
"intelligence has little to do with information"
My point. Information, given or taken, should be a way to find truth (reality). Both in my lofty existential search or if the price of onions is reasonable. And information can take many expressions, not only intellectual.
quote: The real reason for Sweden (and possibly Denmark) to join EU, was that the "politically correct" openness to refugees was being more and more troublesome. It turned out to be too expensive, no functional integrationprograms existed, and the indigenous populations protested more and more loudly in various ways. Few established politicians dared openly suggest a restriction (those who did were hung out as racist or neo-nazis), so they used EU regulations for non-european immigration to hide behind.
i learnt a different story.
England joined EEC at the same time of Denmark I think, brought Ireland along in the pursuit of making "European integration " difficult (that is why de Gaulle wanted them out ) in a broader political plan. Scandinavia failed referenda and openly stated they did not "need" the safety net or compass or whatever the EEC provided.
The cold war was still raging in the 70s.
It is openly documented scandinavian countries packed hefty money from both USA and the USSR (Finland had an ambiguous treaty in place with the USSR ).
Not so mysteriously, with the fall of the iron curtain and as oblivion befell to the cold war (for eminently monetary reasons; the USSR was on the verge of collapse & the USA had clearly bluffed all the way long about Star Wars ), expensive outbacks of the battling empires were gradually discarded.
The golden rain of illegal subventions and uninterrupted sponsorships to allies and undecided (EG the group of countries headed by India & Yugoslavia ) came to an end.
This prompted a fatuous afflatus of jingoism with the 1990 USSR putsch because at least few high-ranking officials understood the USSR was heading south, and so it was.
It was a rush for Russia to basically drop the high-maintenance outskirts of its empire; big mistake, as Russia now bellyaches because these new states sell themselves to the highest bidder, instead of keeping in line with orders from Moscow.
Italy was another "Mexico of Europe" (as i say, but without oil & other resources the real Mexico has ), third-rate country dropping dead after cold war crutches broke.
It turns out Mussolini was more right about what Italy could be than those clowns who wanted to ape America.
A sizable chunk of national wealth got literally down the drain during the massive crisis preceding the euro ( E.G monetary crises ).
Scandinavia was no exception.
Until and as long as gold kept coming from Moscow & Washington, they could ridicule the EEC and bathe in welfare welcoming scum from all over the world to bathe in affluence.
Here these days journals run daily stories about armies of poor people.
To be accepted as "poor" one must be a true charity case, typically feeding on private charity food supplies.
Recently one big religious charitable organization claimed they are literally running out of food.
Welfare is reserved mostly for parasitic minorities (EG South covered in uncollected trash ).
Perhaps (as I wrote and was called a fool ) there was never all that true/inborn affluence, except on the back of USSR & USA; once they stopped paying, there comes the crisis (hell, it shook even Cuba! ), so it was all smoke and mirrors.
Another burst bubble was that felons coming on a boat from Africa were the key to win the commercial war with China...too bad all we got are city ghettos now restricted in some cities by armored walls and barbwire...ha! so much for the "since in Germany the wall falls...".
On background of the wiever-poll of this topic "psychobabbling", I will in the time-honoured tradition of media-divas allow myself some extravagance. (For those of you only used to american humour: This was a personal joke. PeopleS and Ham can wash their hands of all the following, if they want).
Contrary to most media-divas I will not talk about such fascinating topics, as whom I last slept with or the colour of my socks, but instead make a summary of my ideas of how to handle information/finding truth/approaching reality. It will maybe bore or irritate a lot of the readers, but there's always the option to stop reading further.
At the heart of all human effort to communicate/ process information with existence is epistemology. This being a special branch of philosophy, it may sound too highbrow. But nonetheless we all use it in our daily lives; from from a university professor or the halfcrazed mystic living in a cave to the most braindead sheepwalker, who by an overdose of soapoperas or belief-system propaganda, is unable to formulate more than half a sentence at a time. In the later case, it is not called epistemology, but "common sense", thereby trying to give it some respectability.
We recieve signals from the rest of the universe constantly, ranging from expressions of how natural laws manifest themselves, to other humans' speculations about how to interpret this.
When we as individuals process the information from the outside, we rely mainly on two tools. Our perception-apparatus (physical senses and the various filter-mechanisms associated with them) and our preconceived models of "what is real" (eg intellectual, political, philosophical, religious, economical or plain cultural "explanations"). At the base of all such "programs" for the human mind, there are some basic premises (axioms, presumptions).
One way to catalogue various programs is to establish their ability to describe/find "truth". Ranging from the school of thought believing the whole universe (with all its parts) to be the greatest hoax of all, the ultimate con-trick (hinayana buddhism, gnosticism) to those who believe that matter/energy manifestations are solid ground for observation/information-processing (materialistic philosophy).
I will dish out my version here, hopefully as much in shorthand as possible.
As quantum physics and some theological philosophies have it, cosmos (order, natural laws, matter/energy, space/time etc) was banged into exsistence from chaos (the word not to be understood as "confusion" as in common use of it). Chaos is non-order, god, nirvana, magic, miracles, depending on your personal programming. In other words anything which doesn't follow the rules of cosmic order.
Cosmos and chaos aren't divided by a line making them totally separate from each other. Even inside the universe they mingle to a certain degree.
While the order in the universe (natural laws) possibly could represent some degree of "reality", many of the belief-systems constructed by human minds are pure fantasies. These fantasies DO have an inner coherence, seemingly making them true and often making the "believers" into fundamentalists. But a closer look at such belief-systems' premises will, with a minimum of rational thought, demonstrate their shortcomings for representing "reality". Why should this holy book, be more true than this other holy book. For that sake, why should our present "religion" science
be able to give final answers.
My personal belief-system is: Based on the manifestations of "natural" laws every single part of the universe, from the smallest quantum-aspects up to biological beings (and/or other complex beings), is "hungry". It strives for unification with differently charged polarities, such as minus to plus
in electromagnetically particles, up to (or above) human longing for food, sex, shelter etc. Correspondingly unification with similarly charged parts is avoided/rejected.
This process is "natural", following a set of mechanistic rules (predetermined if you like), and seems to be the general behaviour. It is also mostly predatory, if pragmatic observation is to be trusted.
So I agree with PeopleS to some extent. Power (as another word for a predatory system) IS a main factor, though I will not go so far as to say the only one. Remember that chaos is around also.
In chaos the possibility exists to be "outside" the laws of order/cosmos.
At the human level this non-ordered behaviour is often described as anarchistic (not necessarily the bomb-throwing variety so popular with belief-system propagandisers), weird or as "outsiders". Or to take an example from PeopleS culture. The native american medicine man (shaman), who was expected to behave irrational; irrationality being a proven method to contacts entities from other dimensions.
Believing in humanistic ideals is not "natural". It's an option based on non-mechanical epistemology/behaviour. Sheepwalkers, being mostly mechanical, usually aren't humanists (unless the live in a society, where humanism is part of the general programming). Sheepwalkers are part of power belief-systems, but being too lazy, dumb or brainwashed they will never get to the topdog positions. They have to stay at the level of wish-thinking, being spoonfed soapopera fantasies. Sometimes going so far in this direction, that they will turn the soapopera inwards and live in a continuous inner melodrama, making them virtual vegetables. A kind of existential autism.
A warning, dear reader. Given the slightest encouragement, I will later expand on the subject of "outsiders". These being the present days' shamans. So be careful, what you write here.
This long post is not only an expression of my colossal ego. I have actually tried to forward information, I find valuable.
I find your long political analysis interesting, but as you understand, my orientation is more towards other subjects. I do not
reject the value of your observations or conclusions, so this is the
only way, I can respond. I do simply not have the necessary information to form specific opinions in this matter.
Hopefully our different approaches will overlap from time to time. I do not feel the present lack of communication of our subjects to be negative. They just show different angles.
So passive readers of this. We do not have a modern-time type of Babel's tower here. I understand Ham, respect him, I'm just not qualified to answer him.
my last post was 438 words, yours 930, so i don't think that was so long after all.
News I gathered at school on specialized texts, but that were all over newspapers back then.
quote:Hopefully our different approaches will overlap from time to time. I do not feel the present lack of communication of our subjects to be negative. They just show different angles. So passive readers of this. We do not have a modern-time type of Babel's tower here. I understand Ham, respect him, I'm just not qualified to answer him.
well, i took diplomatic studies on one side along with history (plenty of) and social studies because i love the thing; others may think differently, but hey, you can only stretch a debate this far, and perhaps we outgrew it.
[:o)][B)][xx(][:0]
My aversion to pollutics (mental as well as environmental) is based on my special approach to "reality". It's my opinion, that most polluticians lie a considerable part of the time, as do organised religions, commercials and the entertainment industry along parallel lines.
So my life is chemically clean of TV and daily newspapers. I can't stand the mental "noise" (some of you remember Robert Anton Wilson's "Fnords" in his Illuminatus trilogy?).
Whatever political knowledge I have, is based on common opinion from "the man in the street", plus a decent grasp of political ideologies.
Ham, I do not believe, we have outgrown the present debate, we only need common ground to start from. So if you don't feel such a proposal as intrusive, I'm quite sure, I can follow you, if you put forward your own, conctructive political ideology. I think, we agree to, that there's a lot of disinformation going around (you're quite good at exposing it), but have you any suggestions on how to make politics functional (that is to interact to "reality"). Even abstract ideas.
It seems, that our small group here put much importance on the sad fact of sheepwalking. Each from our personal angle. This could be one common point. There are probably other.
Hey guys! Quite an interesting match you have going. The EU is a bit outside of my general knowledge, so I really can't contribute to that topic.
I can say thay swede's "outsiders" might be considered to be part of what I referred to as the "dreamwalkers". It's a somewhat inclusive term referring to anyone who is able to think outside of the box. I general think of these people as dreaming of how things could be better for all mankind. This can be exemplified best by quoting the late Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. who said, "I have a dream!"
Vladimir Lenin had a dream that all people in his country could be united and equal under his philosophy of communism. I personally don't blame him for the abomination that others made of his dream.
Despite his well publicized faux pas about the Beatles being bigger than Jesus Christ, musician John Lennon was a "dreamwalker" who sang about peace and love for all races, and belived that it was something that could happen if enough people really wanted it to happen. If you ever have the chance to listen to his song "Imagine", you will get a picture of his dream of a peaceful utopian society. (... and no religion too...) As for the Beatles being bigger than Christ, realistically, at the time they were (at least with America's youth).
quote:So western clowns like Churchill and Blum really botched it to the advantage of the USSR and USA, who were evidently not so in love with Britain as Hitler was.
ham, I have to defend Churchill. He did everything but get on his knees and beg FDR to help push the Russians out of eastern Europe. The Brits had been fighting WWII two years or so before the US got involved and their forces were badly battered by the end of the war in Europe. Churchill knew England had no chance against the Russian masses without help from the US, so when FDR refused, he had no choice but to back down.
Like Patton, Churchill lost his job soon after!:([V]
quote: My aversion to pollutics (mental as well as environmental) is based on my special approach to "reality". It's my opinion, that most polluticians lie a considerable part of the time, as do organised religions, commercials and the entertainment industry along parallel lines.
Know thy enemy... Politics, whether from the fast talking power brokers of government or the so called pacifists of the bible belt, rules this world for good or bad. To make any change, one must understand what the insiders are doing to manipulate the "sheepwalkers" and find ways to use it against them. No one has to like politics, politicains, the media or the churches, but we do need to understand them and their tatics.
Even for those of us who don't have such ambitions as to change the world, we still need to know and comprehend these groups in order to effectively manage or own affairs and to grow as much as possible within the constraints these groups have established.
quote:A warning, dear reader. Given the slightest encouragement, I will later expand on the subject of "outsiders". These being the present days' shamans. So be careful, what you write here.
With great thought and consideration of all perceived outcomes, both possitive and negative, I say to you sir... EXPAND!!!
"Even for those of us who don't have such ambitions as to change the world, we still need to know and comprehend these groups in order to effectively manage or own affairs and to grow as much as possible within the constraints these groups have established"
For my own part, I can only say, that my "missionary" days are over, but I do keep an eye on society to protect myself.
It looks, as if you already have a good grasp of the outsider idea, so I'll just start by saying, that outsiders are a group, who seem to be more or less immune to sheepwalker programming.
The name outsider was minted by the english author/philosopher Colin Wilson, and later the idea was researched and developed by the american/canadian psychologist/psychiatrist Maslow. Maslow made a survey of the outsidergroup and concluded, that app. 5% of humanity are outsiders. The rest being sheepwalkers (though he was too polite to call them that).
I have later privately tried to follow up this subject, and I have found, that the outsider group can be subdivided. Being an outsider you are prone to the miseries of social ostracism or worse, so the chances of ending up as alcoholic, junkie or neurotic is quite big.
Some outsiders will pass through this purgatory and come out wiser or at least only slightly eccentric. And some outsiders will say: "Hey, I don't believe in rules. I'm king of the world".
By being free of mechanical sheepwalker mentality, outsiders are normally very creative. Many great artists, social engineers and deep thinkers are found in this group.
The group of outsiders passing unscathed through the social ostracism, will often be advocates of some kind of beneficial ideologies and will be the natural opponents of those outsiders, who want to use their mental freedom for egoistic purposes. The first group is in my book the good guys, whom you'll find as instigators of good causes. The second group are more or less sociopaths, who will elbow their way to the top, writing special laws (if any) for themselves, but oppressing the sheepwalkers as much as they can.
Many politicians and power- or moneygreedy types are "bad guy" outsiders. The bad guy outsiders will do anything they can to stop the good guy outsiders from getting any influence. By gunpoint, legislation or framing medical diagnoses.
The legislation-variety is best exemplified by Timothy Leary. It's not, that I'm one of his most enthusiastic supporters, I think he had some pretty stupid (but harmless) ideas occasionally, but on the other hand he also showed moments of genius. He was framed with a viciousness quite of out proportion to his "crimes". His REAL crime was ofcourse, that he openly criticized the governemnt's sheepwalker programming tactics and proposed de-brainwashing procedures for sheepwalkers.
The medical framing: Wilhelm Reich, who really was a minor kind of nut, was harassed by authorities until he broke down completely. Russian dissidents, being diagnosed as mentally ill, because they were anti-communist.
The lists on both good and bad guy outsiders can be made long. And it is my theory, that the real fights are between those groups. Usually the sheepwalkers don't get high enough in any hierarchy to get any real power.
I'm anticipating the protests. Such ideas as I've just put out are very controversial.
quote: ham, I have to defend Churchill. He did everything but get on his knees and beg FDR to help push the Russians out of eastern Europe.
Sure, late on he realized his mistake and tried to steer course, but in vain. My only point was that they said no way they'd compromise or give away Poland to Hitler (who had shared it with the USSR, but they seemed to forgot USSR invaded Poland at the same time ) because Hitler was a threat to the "Empire" (or whatever delusion they used to get drunk to ). At the end of the war Poland is gone, half Europe is gone, hell, half Germany is gone and the "empire" is going as well...
So it is not far fetched to assume their main motive was the destruction of Germany, much as it was in 1914.
In fact, can you cite one big reason for WWI?
quote:Sure, late on he realized his mistake and tried to steer course, but in vain.
I'm surprised you don't know the history of Churchill's relationship with Stalin. Churchill never trusted Stalin. Stalin was an alliance of necessity. There was no "late on" realization, he didn't trust Stalin from the beginning. In fact, Churchill tried to convince FDR to allow Patton to push east, but Patton was already in the dog house at this point.
You seem to site Churchill has the one responsible for the loss of eastern Europe, but it was FDR, the American president who allowed this to happen by not supporting Churchill. It has even been said that FDR and Stalin had a secret pact.
WWI began as a result of the assasination of Archduke Ferdinand of Austria. Somehow, political ties escalated this one event into a world war. I'm unfamiliar with details.
quote:The legislation-variety is best exemplified by Timothy Leary. It's not, that I'm one of his most enthusiastic supporters, I think he had some pretty stupid (but harmless) ideas occasionally, but on the other hand he also showed moments of genius.
swede, Timothy Leary openly advocated the use of LSD. It simply wasn't the best move, considering the POLITICAL climate of the US at the time. He and his beliefs would have benefited from a bit more tactful thinking.
It appears that your "outsiders" and my "dreamwalkers" are very similar in deed.
"swede, Timothy Leary openly advocated the use of LSD. It simply wasn't the best move, considering the POLITICAL climate of the US at the time. He and his beliefs would have benefited from a bit more tactful thinking."
I've even read the congress reports of his hearing with one of the Kennedys. It was a legalistic farce. At that time Leary behaved like the professional, which he in reality was, advocating care and control of LSD. NEVER saying anything about letting it run loose on the streets, he actually warned for the consequencies, if a black market should arise.
The result was, that all research permissions were drawn back from all qualified psychiatrists, and only CIA continued with their infamous mind-control experiments, mentally crippling some people on the way. This is not a conspiracy theory, the thing was brought to court (I don't know the outcome).
The tragic, and at the same time typical, thing is, that LSD originally was meant as psychofarmaka, and had showed VERY promising results in the research done by competent therapists. The authorities probably don't WANT people to get well. The junk they are dealing out now for mental illness is usually addictive and have sideeffects almost as bad as the illness itself. I have tried it for a period.
But Leary's later behaviour is why I'm somewhat sceptical about him.
He reacted far too clumsy in his public attitude, considering the exposed situation an outsider always is in. You have to lie low.
I would make a guess, and say that the dreamwalker is something native american. It sounds a bit like that. There are many very interesting and sensible aspects of the culture of your forefathers.
If you have some information to add, I would be grateful.
quote:I'm surprised you don't know the history of Churchill's relationship with Stalin. Churchill never trusted Stalin. Stalin was an alliance of necessity. There was no "late on" realization, he didn't trust Stalin from the beginning. In fact, Churchill tried to convince FDR to allow Patton to push east, but Patton was already in the dog house at this point.
well, nobody there trusted anybody "really" I daresay.
Much as I don't like American imperialism, it is unfair and untrue to blame it on the Americans.
The English are to blame; if it wasn't for them, we'd have had peace earlier.
Sure, America played Machiavellian tricks and waited for the contenders to be exhausted to get their share, but can we really blame them?
Churchill was begging Stalin to attack Germany even before Germany was ready to attack, and this added to Hitler's paranoia.
In Italy we have a clear example as in 1945 communist militants invaded eastern Italy; a plan was in place to allow transfer of troops from occupied south to help counterattack, and who vetoes the plan?
An English general in command in the south.
Result?
Gratuitous massacres against civilians and -hear this- other non-communist militants.
Foreseeing the sour end, Churchill hurried to visit Stalin to bargain for residual "influence" to be Britain's lot.
Now you cite where this British "influence" ever materialized after the second war.
The Falkland war is the only example, while France struggled a couple more decades to manage the dissolution of its empire.
Britain behaved in a devious way.
Italy needed coal & other supplies, but British blockades made trading a nightmare (Italy entered the war only in 1940 ); Mussolini pleaded for understanding and cooperation, which was offered on paper but never materialized.
A poor country like Italy could have easily been "bought" with coal, supplies or a few minor colonial concessions in Africa, which were discussed but never materialized: why?
Hitler on the other hand was ready to supply 12.000 tons of coal via railroad at any moment...see how things happen?
So ok, Britain did that because they did not want to share an ounce of anything with anybody...and we saw the results...they ended up empty handed and half Europe was gone.
quote:Somehow, political ties escalated this one event into a world war. I'm unfamiliar with details.
you are not familiar with the details because there are no details: no invaded countries, no deportations, no ideologies at fight...nothing but an extended family of monarchs (the king of England was the blood uncle of the German kaiser ) quibbling over nonsense.
Americans entered WWI mainly to recover huge amounts of money for military supplies that defeated partners would not have been able to pay back, and stung by the "all-out submarine war" declared by Germany (silly move).
quote:you are not familiar with the details because there are no details: no invaded countries, no deportations, no ideologies at fight...nothing but an extended family of monarchs (the king of England was the blood uncle of the German kaiser ) quibbling over nonsense.
I thought royal inbreeding had some part in it, but really couldn't remember.
quote:Much as I don't like American imperialism, it is unfair and untrue to blame it on the Americans.
I think it's funny, you don't blame the Americans, and I being an American, do. Certainly England's, and thus Churchill's policies toward Italy, in hindsight, proved to be the wrong decission. But as for his alliance with Stalin, a quote from Churchill, "If Hitler were to invade Hell, I should find occasion to make a favourable reference to the Devil."
The fact is that by the end of the war in Europe, without the full support of FDR and the US army, Churchill had no choice but to make "deals" with Stalin. As battered as the English forces were, had Stalin wished, he could have made Buckingham Palace his winter retreat at that point. So the devil got eastern Europe.
quote:I've even read the congress reports of his hearing with one of the Kennedys. It was a legalistic farce. At that time Leary behaved like the professional, which he in reality was, advocating care and control of LSD.
I didn't know a Kennedy was involved. In the 60's, the only thing that could have prevented their political dynasty was an assassin's bullet, which is what happened twice. Opposing a Kennedy meant certain defeat regardless of the evidence etc. Let's face it, had he not been murdered, JFK could have been elected "King" of the US! His days in the White House were, and still are, referred to as Camelot.
I'm not 100% sure, but I believe cocaine and/ or heroin were once considered "medicine" as well. I know opium was often used, and still is... oxycodone is a strong opiod. I was actually prescribed oxy 80's after a botched surgery years ago. 80's are the strength given to dying cancer victims. There's a huge black market for them!
"Dreamwalker" is a somewhat Native term, but in this reference, I use it to simply mean anyone who dreams of making things better, if not for all mankind, his or herself. Under this broad definition, the three of us can be considered "dreamwalkers" to some extent. Although we each don't appear to have global implications to our dreams, we seek to improve ourselves without adversely effecting others. By doing this, we still have a positive effect on the world, small and insignificant as it may be.
PeopleS, I earlier said, I would return to your post from the 17th.
Cit PeopleS (17th):
"Now, as we have dispensed with the USSR, and begin to learn about the people, we in the US see they are not so different."
Can't say about US similarities with FSU, but must refer to Europe. And I'm still not convinced that there doesn't exist big differences (the cause of those differences being another thing). I will give an example: Secondhand shops. In Denmark, with its very high livingstandard, secondhands shops are "chic". The suburbian housewives will boast about their bargains and strange objects, they find there. There is absolutely no social stigmata connected with this. Quite the contrary. In Sweden and Poland, not so rich countries, flea-markets and secondhand shops are a steadily growing market. You'll find such shops everywhere. My local town is a ghost-town, where most specialists shops like a greengrocer or bicycle-repairmen are dying out or non-existing. But we have four permanent secondhand shops, doing a brisk business.
In Ukraine, the secondhand shops are few and far between, and the average ukrainian refuses to put her/his foot inside such a place. Not because of bad quality of the goods, but because of status-downgrading, if you are caught doing it. I had a couple of real rows with my "fianc?e" about it, where she ended up crying, because of "what would people say about her, if they knew, that her boyfriend shopped secondhand".
"As I said, and Lenin prescribed, there can be no individualism that exists without consent of the whole. Too many individuals took it upon themselves to do things for their own reasons, be they greed, glory. or some Freudian psychosis which was based in their hatred of their mother"
There's good guy individualism (outsider'ness) and bad guy individualism as I proposed lately. Repeating the example of the native american medicine man, who is/was the quintessence of the good guy individualist/outsider. Individuals can do a lot. Einstein, Da Vinci.....
"The world revolves around POWER. Right and wrong play second fiddle"
When it comes to gun-point, this is true. But in the meantime a lot of lipservice is paid to bad and good. To be cynic: It has a certain PR value, though power ofcourse always will win, when it comes to it.
"For ANY worldwide philosophy to exist, much more than a simple majority of the world's population would have to agrre, and that kind of world unity is not something we will see in our lifetimes without some form of divine intervention"
The problem is, that I believe, that we define "divine" in different ways. For most western religions "divinity" is an outside force. In the east the tendency is to talk about a personal state of being, which is a potential for every individual. If I, as a person, reach total awareness (clarity, realisation, nirvana etc), I am LIKE a god, and it gives me possibilites unknown to the average guy (I'm not talking about going out in the world with my magical wand, waving away all problems, but rather to being able to find problem-solving methods).
A momentary and short change from the general line of tracks, we've had here sofar. Occasionally I wonder, if our little babbleclub will come up with any functionel answers. And today I discovered, that just the fact of babbling with you guys has influenced me as a person in some significant ways. I pride myself in being honest, also with myself, so every time I make a post, I have to think about, what I'm going to write. While going on with the discussion about the various suggestions of the FSUW dating scenario (Ham mainly believing cyberspace is the problem, PeopleS that it's a general man/woman thing, and I have said, that FSUW are especially troublesome), I discovered to my surprise, that the principle I've used in dating the last almost 50 years is auto-pilot (mechanical, sheepwalker) based.
To take the famous medallion, which the forever-lovers break in two, when they part for the time being, and then later put together again. Every little part of the edges fitting with each other. Same as the "eyes meeting across the room scenario". It just FITS, alleluja.
Then how comes, that it never fits for me and almost everybody I know. Simple. It's a Hollywood clich?. And I've been LIVING inside it all my life, in spite of all my individualist theories.
So change is coming for me. Next chapter will be about this in tomorrows edition of "babble", our local popular talkshow for highbrows.
For new readers. Here is what has happened sofar in Psychobabbling's own soap-opera.
Just like Shrodinger's cat, who doesn't know, if it exists or not, until someone opens the lid and look, the scammer Elena also doesn't know, if she exists. In one reality she doesn't; in another she does, but here she is called Igor. Igor, who has a passionate hobby being a closet transvestite, finances his/her rather expensive taste in clothes by asking western men of the elderly persuasion for money to his/her grandmother's heartoperation.
Igor's grandmother, in spite of being virtual, has now passed through 331 heartoperations, and to be honest, it's all been a bit too much for her; she (the grandmother) doesn't feel well at all.
Though thinking that his profession is completely legitimate and honest, Igor has become so identified with his role as Elena, that he decides to go through a sex-change operation, making the whole situation kosher. In a period when his grandmother is not going through heartoperations, he uses some of his income to do this. So now he's really Elena, and s/he's completely free of any inner identity conflicts. For obvious reasons, she has to give up being a transvestite, at least concerning wearing women's clothes, so she decides to become a hedonist instead.
Before she can bring her plan to fulfilment, she unfortunately falls in love with three western gentlemen simultaneously, and invite them all to visit her, but by some miscalculation, they all three arrive at the same time to her flat. Luckily her flat has a lot of doors and wardrobes, so one episod was mainly about her lovers walking in and out of these doors or spending indeterminate periods in wardrobes, to prevent them from meeting each other.
Elena feels, that this will bring her into another existential crisis, so she settles for one big love at a time, something like a week for each romantic adventure. But again fate thwarts her plans. Her next lover is a devious and sly sex-tourist, who takes all kind of unmentionable advantages of poor Elena, up to ten times a day (this episod was quite popular according to readers poll). So when he leaves, she's almost in as bad a condition as her grandmother, and wants to live in a monastery.
The monastery of her choice turns out to be for monks, not nuns, but no-one finds out about this new complication, before it's too late. Besides she's not allowed to have a PC in her cell, so cash is running a bit low, and her grandmother is in desperate need of heartoperation no 332. This time a transplantantion.
This is where we are now. The producer of the soap-opera asks me to let him say a few words.
Please, are there any scriptwriters around here? Our present one has run out of ideas and has blown a fuse. Contact personal management, Psychobabbling.
Hey swede! When talking about the people of the FSU states not being so different from the people of the US, I was looking more at having dispensed with the political propaganda that had been spewed from both sides for so many decades like so much toxic waste as to pollute the minds of the people. In the US, fear of the "Big Red Machine" was used in such a way as to create hysteria over communism, and such hysterical fear led to hate. One of the first examples of this communist hysteria is quite evidenced by the McCarthy hearings of the 1950's.
In saying that they aren't so different, I again looked to the big picture. FSUs are human beings. They have families. They love their children. They put on their pants one leg at a time. They laugh and they cry. They have hopes for a better life. Not so different from anyone here in the US now that the human side of them has been made visible with the fall of the Iron Curtain.
What you've said about people of Denmark, Sweden, Poland and Ukraine concerning second-hand stores can be said about different socio-economic groups here within the US. I shop in second-hand stores. Not so much out of necessity, but simply to save a few bucks here or there. There are some Americans who do shop in these stores out of necessity, and there are some who would have a panic attack at the very thought of doing such a thing.
quote:There's good guy individualism (outsider'ness) and bad guy individualism as I proposed lately. Repeating the example of the native american medicine man, who is/was the quintessence of the good guy individualist/outsider. Individuals can do a lot. Einstein, Da Vinci.....
Individualism in and of itself isn't a bad thing so long as the intentions of the individual are, if not beneficial to the whole, not contrary to the well being of the whole. And although some of Einstein's theories were proven to have devastating uses as weapons, as we all know it was other individuals, not he, who applied them as such.
quote:The problem is, that I believe, that we define "divine" in different ways.
Thus my choice of that particular word. Put to it the definition that works best for you or whoever reads it.
quote:A momentary and short change from the general line of tracks, we've had here sofar. Occasionally I wonder, if our little babbleclub will come up with any functionel answers. And today I discovered, that just the fact of babbling with you guys has influenced me as a person in some significant ways.
Sometimes, it's not so important to find the right answers as it is to find it within yourself to ask the right questions. Our little group is reaching inside ourselves to find some pretty good questions which we then debate openly without interference of ego. If each of us takes something from this forum that helps us to become even the tiniest bit more than we were before, then your little experiment was a great success, and I think we each have gotten something positive from this experience. I know I have.
swede, we could always have Elena meet a wealth, much older American who then buys a delapidated farm, forces her to move there with him and shop in second-hand stores. Wacky hillarirty would surely ensue![:o)]
try to post a trial episode about Elena here, and if you're up to the literary standard, I've seen you put out a few times before (f.ex. the story of the ukranian getting a job as escortgirl), ask your agent to write a contract for say 5 episodes.
All the rest of you, sitting out there grumbling about our levity, you don't know what enormous pressure such mental giants as us psychobabblers is living with. Spewing out wisdom non-stop. We need to frolic sometimes.
quote:I didn't know a Kennedy was involved. In the 60's, the only thing that could have prevented their political dynasty was an assassin's bullet, which is what happened twice. Opposing a Kennedy meant certain defeat regardless of the evidence etc. Let's face it, had he not been murdered, JFK could have been elected "King" of the US! His days in the White House were, and still are, referred to as Camelot.
this shows how right i am to compare politics to wrestling...all those angles, feuds, kayfabe, but it is ultimately a choreographed comedy, a fake in spite looking so real.
I have problems with JFK hailed as sort of messiah...
1 Vietnam war
2 Pig's bay
3 orgiastic adulterous weekends with sleazy actresses
4 tentative of WWIII with the Cuban missile crisis
Damn, is this a hero?
This is a public enemy and a scumbag, forget pretty plump faces and gut-wrenching speeches written by ghost writers...
Hell, after the USA helped split Berlin in 2, he even went there to mock them...
quote:I think it's funny, you don't blame the Americans, and I being an American, do. Certainly England's, and thus Churchill's policies toward Italy, in hindsight, proved to be the wrong decission. But as for his alliance with Stalin, a quote from Churchill, "If Hitler were to invade Hell, I should find occasion to make a favourable reference to the Devil."
Well, Churchill was pleading for soviet intervention well before Hitler invaded the USSR, and that is the problem. Churchill was a mid-carder as Chamberlain, but believed he was a genius or something.
He's famous for repartees like:
LADY: Churchill, you are drunk!
CHURCHILL: And you are ugly, but in the morning I will be sober again.
LADY: Churchill, if I were your wife, I'd be tempted to put poison in your tea
CHURCHILL: And if i were your husband, I'd be tempted to drink that tea
Great presence of mind and a good standup comedian, but unfortunately international politics cannot be mastered as those cheap jokes. He was probably - and all more criminally - convinced that he could play both USSR & USA to his advantage, leaving them -just like Italy in WWI- "empty handed" ( to secure Italy's intervention in WWI, they subscribed an agreement full of promises of future rewards, most of which were denied in the end ).
Never mind the huge disparities in economic and military power.
He orchestrated the play well before americans entered the war.
quote:I have problems with JFK hailed as sort of messiah...
1)When JFK was elected, Vietnam was already going on. During his brief time in office, US invovlement was still generally limited to the "advisory" role. It was during the LBJ administartion that things escalated.
2)As president, JFK bore the burden and embarrassment of that fiasco. The truth is that the CIA let him down big time with bad intelligence which led directly to bad planning. John McCone should have been fired!
3)His fallandering is well documented and I also have a personal problem with it.
4)WWIII... Maybe closer than you actually know. Still, there were cards to be played. On the advise of his brother Robert, then Attorney General, JFK made his stance with Khrushchev. The younger Kennedy was carrying on secret communications with Soviet Ambassador Anatoly Dobrynin, while the elder brother maintained a strong image for the country. RFK's tactful negotiations are the secret of the eventual outcome. Had he not been murdered in 1968, this would be a much different world today.
You also need to understand that JFK was more than a man. He was a symbol of promise and hope who then became a martyr and thus a legend. At that time, he was the youngest man to become president. He was the first president born in the 20th century. He began some of the social reforms of the 60's. He kick started the space program. He started the Peace Corps, ?to promote world peace and friendship through a Peace Corps, which shall make available to interested countries and areas men and women of the United States qualified for service abroad and willing to serve, under conditions of hardship if necessary, to help the peoples of such countries and areas in meeting their needs for trained manpower.?
I could go on, but there have already been a couple of biographies written.
As for the "dynasty". Only a bullet could have prevented his re-election in 1964. It would have been interesting to see how Vietnam would have turned out without 5 years under LBJ? In 1968, RFK, who I believe to have been the brightest of the Kennedys, would most certainly have won that election. Although not quite the rousing public speaker that JFK was, his ideals were what many were moved by.
quote:Well, Churchill was pleading for soviet intervention well before Hitler invaded the USSR, and that is the problem.
I again refer to this quote from Churchill, "If Hitler were to invade Hell, I should find occasion to make a favourable reference to the Devil." It was a matter of immediacy. The Brits were simply NOT going to defeat Germany without some help. Turning his back on Italy was certainly a mistake and seems to be a real sticking point with you. But, anyone who studies military strategy knows that having a second force approach your enemy from behind is beneficial. Churchill needed Stalin's armies to open a second front to relieve some pressure from his armies in the west. The thought was beat Hitler now and deal with Stalin afterward. Unfortunately, he didn't have FDR's support when the time came to deal with Stalin.
Maybe some of our passive readers have, in spite of their keeping our popularity-index high, thought: "Oh, those psychobabblers, they will never get anywhere. They let their minds wander aimlessly from one subject to another, with no order or purpose; using a lot of words. Most of the time, they don't even seem to communicate with each other".
I once boasted of a talent for being able to see patterns, and I will now try to justify my megalomonia, by trying to tie everything said sofar into a nice little knot, showing that Ham, PeopleS and I are making a pattern.
We have here roved around with such topics as politics, dating, psychology, cultural differences/similarities, evolution-theory etc.
In all this, there seems to be a recurrent theme, described by different names: Reptile thinking, predatory systems, hierachy systems, parasitism, power, manipulation and egotism. All these words defining one specific situation from different angles. We have also talked about how to relate this.
The situation in a predatory system is as follows: The only relationship between two different parts of the universe functioning together inside this frame is, that one part (by being "stronger" in one way or another) eat the other (weaker) part, or use this other weaker part in similar ways for personal, and completely egoistic, gratification. The weaker part will have no beneficial effects from this process. This system functions both between different species, and also inside the same species. Not only in the case of animals, but also plants compete, even with their fellow plants. Eg trees competing for light and nourishment.
Most human societies are build upon predation, no matter how elevated the theories behind them are. The political bosses feed people a bunch of lies, and later use them for cannonfodder in some private war. The organised religions make people into fundamentalists, with "right to kill", and big business makes people into braindead consumers.
The other extreme choice of relating is: Symbiosis, a situation where both parts benefit. It does happen sometimes in nature, by special twists in evolution, but it's not the most usual method. Sufficiently complex organisms can construct/create such symbiosis functions, because they learn from experience, that it pays. Eg human social engineering (wellfare, charity etc), birds picking the teeth of crocodiles, free flow of information.
I've put the sitauation in black/white. Usually it's a bit of this and a bit of that.
The predatory system is very quick, both at the individual level and as a factor in evolution, but it implies a lot of inconvenience for the weaker parts, and generally it creates a background feeling of paranoia. You never know, when YOU will meet YOUR predator.
Symbiosis is slow, both for evolution and individually, but it's generally more pleasant for everybody involved. And in any case, what's so wonderful about quick evolution? Symbiosis is the method for mutual gain, and represents functional interaction and communication.
Symbiosis does NOT mean, that you have to turn the other cheek, being a blue-eyed pacifist or offer your body to a tiger. It means making fair deals.
Until now, we have mainly discussed the predatory principle/symbiosis as the relation between two different individuals. But it can also be used to describe the inner functioning of an individual, specially a complex one as a human being. Complex beings have so many different bits of "machinery" and more abstract functions inside them, that a certain organisation is necessary to make all this work together. We can here (in the inner organisation of an individual) also talk about the predatory principle or symbiosis as possibilities. But that is a post by itself.
"They have families. They love their children. They put on their pants one leg at a time. They laugh and they cry. They have hopes for a better life."
For that matter, so does a welltrained chimpanzee. In the spirit of GENERAL humanitarian, symbiotist and almost-but-not-quite-buddhist attitude I know, that a measure of tolerance is important. Also charity and social levelling. But I have no pity or compassion for crooks. They have no right to hide behind a "do-good" system, excusing themselves with various idiotic theories about bad potty-training or repressions under a horrible political system. To be active part of a symbiotic exchange, you'll have to take responsibility for your actions and be honest. The average crook is a camouflaged predator, pretending to be the "victim" of this or that.
And the attitude in FSU and satelite areas is, that you just grab. A big part of the untold zillions pumped into the area as support or as business-investments went directly into private pockets of the topdogs, and then slowly filtered down to the general population. I've seen this in my 18 years in Poland, and Poland is "civilized" in this respect, compared to many of the other countries in the area. At least at the economical level, the whole system is one big predatory machine, with "glamour" (status) as an outer indicator of your success (thus the example of secondhand shops).
I know, that I maybe sound like a hard case of republican rightwing individualism. "Bad luck, mate. But god (or whatever) ordained you to be starving to death, so please get out of my way". But no, there ARE many cases where real help is needed and justified. And I would be (and sometimes am) the first to respond to such (as Brunods would have said: Just in case, it's your ticket to heaven).
But this a big step from this to having sleepless nights, if you can't afford the latest fashionclothes. And while I help as much as I can (or almost), I react very negatively to be a scam-victim. I do not suffer from the common handwringing about what is right or wrong. Theoretically everybody should have the chance to survive with a minimum of food, shelter and personal safety. If an individual wants MORE than that, it's his own business how s/he does it, as long as it doesn't infringe on other individuals or the planet in general.
quote:I again refer to this quote from Churchill, "If Hitler were to invade Hell, I should find occasion to make a favourable reference to the Devil." It was a matter of immediacy. The Brits were simply NOT going to defeat Germany without some help. Turning his back on Italy was certainly a mistake and seems to be a real sticking point with you. But, anyone who studies military strategy knows that having a second force approach your enemy from behind is beneficial. Churchill needed Stalin's armies to open a second front to relieve some pressure from his armies in the west. The thought was beat Hitler now and deal with Stalin afterward. Unfortunately, he didn't have FDR's support when the time came to deal with Stalin.
You still miss my point.
Hitler was (stupidly) enamoured with Britain; he wanted peace at all costs with Britain. I start from the official standpoint that Britain did all it did for the sake of Poland. Now I think it is false as USSR had invaded Poland along with Germany, yet Germany was the only one to blame. Second, they had no western armies since that idiot Hitler let 250.000 of them save their butt at Dunkerque (again: enamored with Britain. Pay back will come with the Churchill-orchestrated Dresden mass bombing ). Now the official standpoint is bunk since not only Poland was gone, but half Europe as well. The camel got into the tent starting from the head, but it was too late. Suggesting that Churchill could not appreciate USSR's military power TO THAT POINT (along with ideology ) would make him look all the more silly and amateurish.
Americans did not care until 1941 and even thereafter were not too concerned with Europe, leaving contenders to fight to death to sell weaponry and supplies first.
Later it was honestly too late to contain the USSR.
Part of Churchill's master plan was to let the USSR bear the most weigh in the struggle to hopefully kill the beast in action.
Yes, while the beast conquered one country after another.
Americans came near to confrontation with USSR in Berlin, but at that point, what for?
Stalin was still complacent enough to make him look tame enough not to warrant such measures; only with the invasion of Budapest & Prague did Americans fully realize the beast had not only not died, but was flourishing and far from tame.
Roll-back doctrine by Foster Dulles later exemplifies this new awareness: ROLL-BACK, alas too late since USSR had atomic bombs too.
My point, however, is purely technical: WWII happened basically because a portion of "nazified" Europe was too much to bear for Churchill (whose hallucinating speeches are on par with the most exaggerate Nazi propaganda, albeit on different wavelenghts ); well, after WWII they had a bunch of soviet regimes in a broader geographical area, and worldwide unrest (Vietnam, Cuba ).
Who felt sorry for Prague and Budapest?
Churchill later described Mussolini as a monster, but did nothing to help him stay out of the war but empty promises (Mussolini was in love with Britain as well ).
Again, I think Churchill was a self-pompous mediocrity who thought he could handle Stalin like the ladies in his sarcastic repartees.
Big mistake.
Yes, he had 37 countries colonies of Britain to help, yet still he failed miserably.
Churchill was busy with the mental masturbation he would "write history", but he led his country to disaster, the empire collapsed and the end result is that USA & USSR shared the lot.
As i said, while France still managed to stir some troubles in Africa, Britain literally vanished as world-power, becoming only "America's dear ally" in a balance much weaker than between Italy and Germany.
quote:1)When JFK was elected, Vietnam was already going on. During his brief time in office, US invovlement was still generally limited to the "advisory" role. It was during the LBJ administartion that things escalated.
Well, WWII was supposed to be over in 18 months; Bush blames the CIA as well for his "mass destruction" hoax, but who are they kidding?
Castro is another example: bastard of a wealthy proprietor himself, Castro was forced by US embargoes & severity to sell himself to the one able to buy his sugar & bananas pronto: the USSR, wearing their colors; much like Albania did later (in the communist diaspora ) collaborating with China.
Again: suitable mediation was not even attempted.
No matter the interpretation of historical developement, one thing stands out.
Top politicians are not especially wise, they are just good at playing the predator game.
But who (if any) orchestrates the play?
ham Posted - Jan 20 2008 : 10:12:25
quote:You still miss my point.
Hitler was (stupidly) enamoured with Britain; he wanted peace at all costs with Britain.
And is it therfore believed that had Hitler conquered all of Europe that he would have said, "Okay, I love England so gosh darned much that I'll just leave them be?" Wartime politics is THE most bastardized form of propaganda possible. Again I will point you toward the dastardly doings of the FDR administration. Japan had sent multiple envoys to the US to negotiate peace before hostilities broke out, but were brushed aside because FDR needed an excuse that he could "sell" to the country for entering the war. Every man and woman who died at Pearl Harbor on December 7th, died by FDR's hand.
So you see, war really does make strange bedfellows doesn't it?
quote:My point, however, is purely technical: WWII happened basically because a portion of "nazified" Europe was too much to bear for Churchill (whose hallucinating speeches are on par with the most exaggerate Nazi propaganda, albeit on different wavelenghts ); well, after WWII they had a bunch of soviet regimes in a broader geographical area, and worldwide unrest (Vietnam, Cuba ).
How big would that "portion" of nazified Europe have been had they won? At what border would they have stopped? Italy maybe? Heck, the Nazis were in north Africa! They were fighting to control sand, camel dropping and absolutely NO natural resourses. No, Hitler was a maniac and had to be stopped at all costs. Can you imagine what might have happened if he had control of "the bomb" prior to his defeat?
Unlike the USSR and the US, I believe that this man would have deemed millions upon millions as "acceptable" losses in an all out nuclear war, as long as he thought he would win. Churchill's dealings to bring Russia into the war was the only thing he could do, viewing Stalin as the lesser of two evils. Hitler himself helped this along by building his forces along the Russian border and presenting himself as a threat to Stalin who was hesitant to commit. Hitler also made the mistake of underestimating Russian strength, thinking he would be in Moscow in months. Having not planned on a lengthy battle in the east, when winter came, supplies were low and thus the Russian resurgeance and push toward the west.
With "the bomb" in hand, had FDR supported Churchill in trying to get the Russians to leave the countries they occupied, all of this would be a moot point. I should also point out that good old Gen. George S. Patton also presented a plan to Gen. Omar Bradley (his direct superior) to push the Russians back if they didn't go willingly, which included taking Moscow if necessary to drive home the point. His plan evaluated the Nazi failure and took into account the weather and supply logistics. Eisenhower canned the idea and Patton himself soon after.
As for Dresden... a major mistake that should have never happened. I agree that it was inexcusable and I have no clue, evidence or theory to support what Churchill did there.
Castro and Cuba are a mistake of the Eisenhower administration that JFK inherited. Personally, I have a big problem with US policy toward Cuba and have for a long time, particularly since the fall of the Soviet Union. In this area, I feel that US policy still punishes a former satelite of the FSU long past time to do so, and is by doing so, contributing to the problem that should no longer be a problem. Each concurrent US administration that comes to power finds it easier to maintain the status quo than to do what is right.
For the CIA agent who may be monitoring this, these statements were made under Cuban mind control and I am a loyal American!
swede, to expand on what I had said before, you need to understand the fear propaganda that was spread in the US for so many decades. The SU, and thus the people, were presented as without feeling or true emotion. SU children were "bred" to fight against... us! That was their purpose in life as we were told by our "trusted" gvernment. Any and all humanistic characteristics of Soviet people were removed! Clearly the intent was to foster hatred through fear.
Once again we go to politics and power as being the origin of the problem. Stalin's quest for power, in the abence of the vanquished Hitler, gave the world and particularly the US a new focal point to rally against in order to promote nationalism. (Here we have a prime example of an individual who has adversely affected the whole) His tactics and brutality rivaled those of Hitler in many ways, but with the introduction of a new weapon into world society, the approach to him had to be modified.
Again I refer to decades of "programming" which we have discussed. This occured on both sides of the Iron Curtain I am sure. Cultural differences aside, with the fall of the SU and the "newly discovered" eastern European states, Americans like me are able to see that these are people like us, who were to some extent "brainwashed" into mindless and unfounded hatred toward the people as opposed to the real problem which was the opposing government/ political philosophies.
quote:And the attitude in FSU and satelite areas is, that you just grab. A big part of the untold zillions pumped into the area as support or as business-investments went directly into private pockets of the topdogs, and then slowly filtered down to the general population. I've seen this in my 18 years in Poland, and Poland is "civilized" in this respect, compared to many of the other countries in the area. At least at the economical level, the whole system is one big predatory machine, with "glamour" (status) as an outer indicator of your succees (thus the example of secondhand shops).
GREED and POWER! The haves want more and will tread upon the backs of the have-nots without remorse. You help to make my point that people in the FSU are really no different that people any where else, especially in the US. Perhaps, the FSUs take things a bit to the extreme from time to time and in certain areas, but I attribute this to their new found freedom. We here in the US, Sweden and Italy take the "ability" to be greedy for granted because we have had such ability for the passed 60+ years. FSUs haven't. The freedom to be greedy is new to the common man or woman! Prior to 1991, greed was excusive to the Soviet elite. These people are like kids with a free pass in a candy store. To some extent, it's the responsibilty of those of us to try to understand their fervor. FSUs are like children to the world society. They're only 16 or so years old and deserve tolerence to some extent.
quote:I know, that I maybe sound like a hard case of republican rightwing individualism. "Bad luck, mate. But god (or whatever) ordained you to be starving to death, so please get out of my way". But no, there ARE many cases where real help is needed and justified. And I would be (and sometimes am) the first to respond to such (as Brunods would have said: Just in case, it's your ticket to heaven).
There are those who have said it is the "responsibility" of those who can, to help his fellow man. Others believe in the adage, "God helps those who help themselves". Like you have done, it sometimes must be realized that there truly are those who for whatever reason are in a socio-economic postion where they cannot do anything for themselves without some kind of help. Those who can, but don't try, deserve their fate. Those who try, but fail for whatever reason, deservre help and guidance toward self suffience.
As I have read here and on other sites, scamming is actually considered to be an honest living in many areas of the FSU. Again, I say they are children of world society and some degree of tolerence must be shown, along with proper disiplinary action of course. The problem is disiplining the child. How???[V]
quote:No matter the interpretation of historical developement, one thing stands out.
The one with the most toys!!!! Be it guns, bombs, or bodies to throw with total disregard!!!
Or maybe my favorite:
"Americans did not care until 1941 and even thereafter were not too concerned with Europe, leaving contenders to fight to death to sell weaponry and supplies first."
It's at that level, we FIRST meet the silent players. For the really bad cases of sheepwalking: Maybe the X-file theme wasn't just a good story, but an allegory of what's going on. Or Orwell's "1984", where allegiances are constanly changing, and "history" is being re-written all along. All in the interests of a small power-elite.
Religious dogmas express the options well. The "western" organised religions fundamentally telling you: "Bow to the topdog, shut up, and don't ask questions". And this game can be played through different outlets: Politics, economy, religion, philosophy etc., adressing themselves to different types of people.
Some of the eastern saying: Find knowledge, wisdom, and act as if you are responsible.
That's the next level silent players.
In the end, it's up to the individual to choose his/her direction. It's not where you are, it's where you're going, that's important. Change is necessary. Remember the overall topic for psychobabbling is "Scam or not". Is that question asked for idle curiosity, or as an incitement to take consequences?
There are scams inside scams inside scams.
"For the CIA agent who may be monitoring this, these statements were made under Cuban mind control and I am a loyal American!"
Wellcome to my little world. Only in my case, I'm the victim of reptiles from Draconia. If I believed it would function, I would wear an aluminum hat. (Anybody detecting any irony in this statement: Such irony is directed towards myself, not PeopleS).
"swede, to expand on what I had said before, you need to understand the fear propaganda that was spread in the US for so many decades."
Pleeease, PeopleS. Even peasants like me have so much knowledge of US. I always found the McCarthy regime on par with the sovjet's worst exaggerations.
"Perhaps, the FSUs take things a bit to the extreme from time to time and in certain areas"
With all respect, your and my definition of what a "bit" is differs radically. I consider these people to have passed over the border to criminal behaviour. But this standpoint of mine is ofcourse no surprise by now, and I shall refrain from threshing on the subject.
"There are those who have said it is the "responsibility" of those who can, to help his fellow man."
I have my own "almost-but-not-quite-buddhist" approach, this is a personal thing, I will not mission for. But the utilitarian principle seems to be sensible to me: It could be you or me tomorrow, needing a helping hand. It's at that level just insurance, and don't mind Brunod's or moral philosophy.
"As I have read here and on other sites, scamming is actually considered to be an honest living in many areas of the FSU"
Soap-opera Elena does. And she's not completely fictive.
"along with proper disiplinary action of course. The problem is disiplining the child. How???"
What about enforced freudian psychoanalysis for 20 years. Or reading this forum two hours every day. What I tried to do in my own situation with my "fianc?e", was to stop her as much as I could. I had the possibilities to a certain degree to mess with her private live, but I abstained. I believe, that her humiliation by being exposed was a heavy blow, but it wouldn't crush her. She continued a year or two after being put out as a scammer, then she disappeared from the scene, when her new clients started contacting me (recognising her through sites like this. It DOES pay to be here).
quote:Pleeease, PeopleS. Even peasants like me have so much knowledge of US. I always found the McCarthy regime on par with the sovjet's worst exaggerations.
Persoally, I would say more along the lines of the Spanish Inquisition or even a good old fashioned Salem 'witch hunt'. But the fear was instilled within the masses none the less.
quote:With all respect, your and my definition of what a "bit" is differs radically. I consider these people to have passed over the border to criminal behaviour.
A little bit of sarcasm.[:o)] Still, I honestly feel that these people really, in some cases, don't realize that what they're doing is that wrong. It's become a way of life and it's excepted. Many see it as a victimless crime. No one got hurt, so what's the big deal? Changing attitudes is a giant leap. How to do it is beyond me at this point.
quote:What I tried to do in my own situation with my "fianc?e", was to stop her as much as I could.
Some people, you just can't reach. Trust me, I know. I only hope I won't just give up on the next one because of past frustrations.
On a lighter side, since I have finally finished wrapping the walls, ceilings and floors of my apartment with tin foil, I have a site for you to check out. hot russian brides. As I continue to look for possible scam sites, I came across this gem. With only minimal info in my free profile and no photos posted, I have received over 80 messages in 3 days! Mostly from the 18 to 22 crowd. Also, once logged in, you are constantly bombarded with an in house pop-up of girls online who would like to chat with you. If you go to check this site out, be sure to look at their rapes... I mean rates for opening letters of correspondence.[V]
"Changing attitudes is a giant leap. How to do it is beyond me at this point."
As promised, I will start on this track in a few days.
"With only minimal info in my free profile and no photos posted, I have received over 80 messages in 3 days!"
But it does give one such a lovely, warm feeling to be needed.
Now to Elena:
Our present scriptwriter is out of whisky and is making himself difficult, in spite of having his blown fuse changed for a new one.
So we asked the janitor here at the office, who takes evening classes in literature, to help us out with this week's episode.
The story of Elena. Episode umpteenth.
Elena is now down with acute anti-scam. She lies in her bed at home, looking pale and lovely. She has been kicked out of the monastery after a stormy affair with the abbot, who, as abbots go, has a dubious morality concerning both pleasures of the flesh and how to use the monastery's funds. But Elena really DID need that necklace. It was sooo glittery.
So the abbot still lives in a cell, though not in the monastery, but in a different kind of place. And our Elena, being refused admittance by all nunneries for miles around, because of the usual inefficiency of bureaucrats everywhere, has been forced to move back to her simple 5 room flat.
Her grandmother's hearttransplantation has failed, and she now needs cryogenic preservation, waiting for better times. And such costs. So Elena is at her wits end.
But in the deepest of darkness, light sometimes arises. The flat next door has been leased to an american doctor on holiday, and Elena makes some discreet inquieries about the possibility, that he's a sex-tourist. This not being the case, Elena asks the doctor, if he can help her fight her anti-scam infection.
He arrives at her flat bringing all the tools of his trade and prepares to take her pulse, bloodpressure, temperature and whatever doctors usually take.
Elena informs him, that you do not take bloodpressure on the arm in Ukraine. It's taken on the upper part of the leg. The doctor, who has never been out of Iowa before, thinks this is strange, but when in Rome..........! But he tells her, that she must remove her suspenders first.
Psychobabbling being audio-visual, only without the audio or visual parts, must rely on telling our readers, what happens.
(Camera zooms in).
Soft music and shadows moving in the dark.
The next day the fee for grandmother's cryogenic preservation is paid by the american doctor. Grandmother can now safely stay deepfrozen the next 50 years. Ofcourse Elena has a special arrangement with the owner of the cryogenic clinic, and together they thaw out grandmother and put her back in virtual reality, where she will feel much better.
After a week the doctor goes back to Iowa, feeling somewhat confused, not knowing what has happened or if he's engaged and where his visa-card is.
Elena thinks it would be a wonderful idea to live in USA. The land of swimmingpools and milk and honey and, and ..... swimmingpools.
quote:And is it therfore believed that had Hitler conquered all of Europe that he would have said, "Okay, I love England so gosh darned much that I'll just leave them be?"
he was enamoured with it. There is no explanation but he was (based on silly XIX century concepts. He was aping the "white man's burden" ).
quote:How big would that "portion" of nazified Europe have been had they won? At what border would they have stopped? Italy maybe? Heck, the Nazis were in north Africa! They were fighting to control sand, camel dropping and absolutely NO natural resourses. No, Hitler was a maniac and had to be stopped at all costs. Can you imagine what might have happened if he had control of "the bomb" prior to his defeat?
No bigger than the soviet portion. Communism took up more than half the world, from China to Angola. Is it too much?
Nazis came to Africa to help Italy & control oil resources & a strategic gateway to Asia.
quote:Unlike the USSR and the US, I believe that this man would have deemed millions upon millions as "acceptable" losses in an all out nuclear war, as long as he thought he would win.
While Americans threw only 2 bombs on Japan out of philanthropy and not because - as it is known- they had only 2 and wanted to avoid losses on THEIR end.
About "millions", Stalin murdered more of his compatriots than Hitler did enemies.
quote:As for Dresden... a major mistake that should have never happened. I agree that it was inexcusable and I have no clue, evidence or theory to support what Churchill did there.
The reason was plain terrorism.
But hey, Hitler could have excused himself too for "inexcusable mistakes" had he won.
He was too attached to XIX century ideals like lebensraum.
Napoleon, however, was on the other side of the spectrum but fared not better.
quote:In Ukraine, the secondhand shops are few and far between, and the average ukrainian refuses to put her/his foot inside such a place. Not because of bad quality of the goods, but because of status-downgrading, if you are caught doing it. I had a couple of real rows with my "fianc?e" about it, where she ended up crying, because of "what would people say about her, if they knew, that her boyfriend shopped secondhand".
well, although here at the time they preached affluence, i always shopped hardcore. I knew the bubble of (unsubstantiated) affluence would soon burst.
Europe has no oil, coal or uranium so it's easy to see how.
I never bought used clothes, but i shopped hardcore for groceries etc since i can remember; savings have been huge.
I also remember people approaching me like a beggar a long time ago asking whether those groceries "were eatable"...
I never bought a new car this far, but i have no debts as well.
People who laughed at me probably deal with repossession, overdue bills and credit disasters right now; i pay every bill long before due and had never any credit problem: i am debt-free.
Do i am rich? no way; as i said, you cannot have it all.
Sure, you cannot have BOTH the latest gadget AND save money; you cannot BOTH turn heads AND be debt-free...unless you are extremely wealthy or powerful.
I prefer aurea mediocritas in peace rather than papier-mache VIP lifestyle struggling to make ends meet: wait for the first rain (repossession, credit crisis, unexpected events ) and your papier-mache pantheon turns to mud in no time.
This explains how i might be an unsuitable candidate for cyber FSU-MOBs daydreaming of swimming pools, six figures income, emmy awards, rolls royces, brick&mortar A+ colleges and fortnightly vacations to five stars exotic resorts.
quote:he was enamoured with it. There is no explanation but he was (based on silly XIX century concepts. He was aping the "white man's burden" ).
So basically, you honestly believe that had Hitler conquered all of Europe, the middle east, and northern Africa, while still harboring designs for the eventual invasion of Russia, that he was so "enamoured" with England that he would have left the nation sovereign. Okay???
quote:No bigger than the soviet portion. Communism took up more than half the world, from China to Angola.
And again, I blame FDR who still had sufficient military might at his disposal for not backing Churchill, you blame Churchill who's armies had been so battered for seven years and stood zero chance of stopping Russia from marching into Buckingham Palace had Stalin so desired. To me, that's like calling the skinny kid who barely survived a fight with one bully, only because his big brother and another bully helped, a whimp for negotiating his lunch money away to keep his teeth when the second bully starts pushing him and big brother turned his back.
quote:While Americans threw only 2 bombs on Japan out of philanthropy and not because - as it is known- they had only 2 and wanted to avoid losses on THEIR end.
The fact is that Truman had hoped that one bomb would have been enough, thus the days between bombings. It was Hirohito's delay that brought about the dropping of the second bomb. And yes, the hope was to save American lives that would have been lost had the US invaded mainland Japan. The post bomb horrors were also far greater than anyone had predicted including Oppenheimer.
But again, it seems to me that you believe Adolph Hitler, a pure megalomaniac who had working missiles, would not have used nukes to acheive his goal of world conquest. Again, all I can say is okay???
After a week the doctor goes back to Iowa, feeling somewhat confused, not knowing what has happened or if he's engaged and where his visa-card is....
Unfortunately, the good doctor develops an unexplained rash in his nether region a few days after returning to Iowa and now must enlist the help of a friend, of a friend, of a friend to obtain certain ointments as not to raise the suspicions of his shrew American wife who thought he was attending a medical convention in Jersey.
Elena, meanwhile, purchases a brand new laptop courtesy the good doctor's visa and is back in business. One might think her first order of business would be to post a few profiles, but instead she logs onto [u]swimming pool screensavers</u> for the true necessities.
The next day after posting her profile on [u]RBrides.com</u> Elena receives a notice that her profile is being removed as a scammer. Truly horrified at the prospect of having to refreeze her virtual granny, Elena does what any good scammer would. She changes her name to Alena and resubmits her profile with a new home city and the same old photos.
All is right with the world as she begins receiving message after message from Barney, Kamala and Wong...
Pleased and content, she falls asleep holding her new laptop in her arms as a lovely heart shaped inground swimming pool dances across her screen...
As we fade out on our sleeping beauty, we fade in on the good doctor applying his newly gotten ointment to his nether region when his wife walks in...
Well done, you still have it in you. But what WILL Ham think of us?
quote:Well done, you still have it in you. But what WILL Ham think of us?
[:0][?][:o)]
to this person it's happening right now, though:
http://stop-scammers.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=949
quote:But again, it seems to me that you believe Adolph Hitler, a pure megalomaniac who had working missiles, would not have used nukes to acheive his goal of world conquest. Again, all I can say is okay???
i do not think he'd use them on Britain or France; USSR, likely in some relatively remote place. Remember the man was a nature freak, a vegetarian & stuff like that.
quote:And again, I blame FDR who still had sufficient military might at his disposal for not backing Churchill, you blame Churchill who's armies had been so battered for seven years and stood zero chance of stopping Russia from marching into Buckingham Palace had Stalin so desired. To me, that's like calling the skinny kid who barely survived a fight with one bully, only because his big brother and another bully helped, a whimp for negotiating his lunch money away to keep his teeth when the second bully starts pushing him and big brother turned his back.
you make a big mistake here.
Only because they settled on the same side, it does not mean they shared the exact same agenda.
America wanted to insure war supplies would be paid back, and reacted to Japan's challenge in the pacific region.
Far from them to orchestrate bogus European plans like Churchill did.
Italy had not the same agenda as Germany, or Japan.
In fact they had agreed to divide the world into 3 separate areas on influence right because one's policies, goals or rhetoric were not necessarily shared by the others, notwithstanding some important agreements.
Britain was back then THE world superpower, forget skinny kids.
It dragged along a convoy of dozens of satellite countries.
Italy & Germany barely assembled a few like Bulgaria, Hungary etc.
In spite of that, it appears fascist countries were more straightforward and loyal to one another: Germany transferred most of its secrets to Japan.
You then seem to forget America had no ideologic basis; while Churchill thought Germany was a threat to the empire, America was far from that.
Hell, they even quibbled over declaring war to America, which was done because things were out of control and to back Japan up; Italy in particular was very reticent to do so because of the huge Italian communities in America.
"The enemies of my enemy are my friends": it never got farther than that.
Why would America, that had gotten half of the cake at virtually no cost, enter another war?
First, none thought (stupidly) about what'd happen next; second, if they had gotten half the cake with almost no effort, why would they start going to slaughter over what, Poland? Jews ?
None really cared.
Only much later was Morgenthau (jewish zionist & US prominent politician ) given credit, foreseeing the huge returns on the guilt card; earlier he was handled simply as an eccentric buffoon.
Did they really know nothing of concentration camps?
Please...
They knew about the most secret plans shared among a few top officials only, and ignored squared miles of open space, open air camps packed with millions of inmates etc.
Camps were destined to fade in the mist of time, much like post-war allied camps (where some sources claim millions of Germans died )...have you ever heard of allied camps?
No, and if you have, it was the "tea & biscuits" tale you heard i suppose.
Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, etc...sure, a few indignant lines here & there, but hey...you cannot clean house without breaking some glasses, can you?
quote:i do not think he'd use them on Britain or France; USSR, likely in some relatively remote place. Remember the man was a nature freak, a vegetarian & stuff like that.
Had Hitler been one tenth the social minded humanitarian you make him out to be with such concern for England, why did he bomb them?
quote:you make a big mistake here.
The point isn't who had what agenda. The point is that had the US backed England against the Soviets, the Soviets wouldn't have occuppied eastern Europe for 60 years.
Your knowledge of European history is admirable, but as for what the US was doing in WWII and why falls a little short in some respects. The US public didn't want to get invovled in the war. We were in the middle of a depression, and isolationism was the order of the day. FDR desparately wanted to get into the war because he knew the war machine would jump start the economy. Churchill had also emplored that the US help, but FDR's hands were politically tied. "It wasn't our war".
He needed an excuse! The Japanese sent an envoy to Washington to negotiate a treaty with the US prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor, but was turned away. After Pearl Harbor, FDR had what he needed to win approval of the public to enter the war. Basically FDR allowed the Japanese to bomb the Pacific fleet. Why do you think most of our carriers were not at dock??? It wasn't a coincidence. The damage to the base was much heavier than anticipated, but salvagable. The US declared war Japan and on Germany soon after, so it didn't really matter if Hitler declared war on the US or not.
Bottom line is the US wanted to get into the war.
Bottom line is that had the US backed England against Russia, we wouldn't be having this debate because we had the bomb and Russia didn't yet. But something else that may not be in your European history books is that FDR had several secret meetings with Stalin that did not include Churchill. It's been pieced together that FDR gave eastern Europe to Stalin long before the war was over in Europe.
Here's your agenda. FDR gave away eastern Europe as reparations to Stalin for the devistating losses the Russians took on the eastern front.
quote:Your knowledge of European history is admirable, but as for what the US was doing in WWII and why falls a little short in some respects. The US public didn't want to get invovled in the war. We were in the middle of a depression, and isolationism was the order of the day. FDR desparately wanted to get into the war because he knew the war machine would jump start the economy. Churchill had also emplored that the US help, but FDR's hands were politically tied. "It wasn't our war".
i know all that, and as I said, getting repayments for war supplies and getting the most of the cake with minimal effort (=what really happened).
Fighting USSR would jeopardize this strategy of maximal gains with minimal losses.
Losses would skyrocket, what for?
To reinstate Britain as world power?
For Poland?
None cared to start with.
I'm not saying it was right, but as with WWI, maximal gains with minimal losses.
The same strategy Mussolini wanted to follow: enter the war, loose a few men and seven week later be a victor.
The clash with Japan was unavoidable in the Pacific region, even if no serious attempt was made to avert war. Again: unwillingness to compromise.
Americans never go to slaughter to save others; they enter the war late, let others do most of the job, get paid for war supplies they produce in peace at home and get much of the cake afterwards.
Can you possibly be wiser?
Japan could as well have occupied Hawaii, but (as with Hitler & Britain ) they probably never wanted a real all-out war with America; only to make sure they got green light in Asia & the pacific region, much like Hitler never dreamt to disassemble the British empire; diminish it, yes.
quote:Had Hitler been one tenth the social minded humanitarian you make him out to be with such concern for England, why did he bomb them?
Sincere or not, Hitler's plea to spare civilian cities was ignored; Italy waited during the first stage of the war, always in an attempt to reach a compromise, but Italian cities were bombed first.
Never forget Hitler sent his heir Hess to England in 1941.
He never stopped pleading with them, while (stupidly) ignoring Stalin's offers.
I'm not sure, but I read on one history book Stalin at one time would accept the rank of co-belligerent (second class ally ) in exchange for some influence in Asia.
Silly to refuse.
Japan made the horrible mistake NEVER to attack USSR.
They were paid back when USSR attacked Japan in the terminal phase of the war.
haven't left you. Got a cold or something, need a few days rest. Will be back.
Quote; "i know all that, and as I said, getting repayments for war supplies and getting the most of the cake with minimal effort (=what really happened)."
Seriously, what they apparently wrote in the history books you read strays a bit from reality in this case. FACT: The US lost more troops in 4 years than Britain did in 7, so the losses, although nowhere near the staggering numbers of casualties the Nazis, Italians, Russians, Japanese, or Chinese experienced were there.
What piece of the "cake " did the US get????? I really want to know this one. Territories gained by the US... a few 3rd world islands in the middle of the Pacific. THAT'S IT!!! Oh, a millitary base in Turkey and one in Germany, not the whole country and it's resources.
Quote: "I'm not saying it was right, but as with WWI, maximal gains with minimal losses."
To which I will simply answer with another quote... "No poor dumb bastatard ever won a war by dying for his country. You win a war by making some other poor dumb bastard die for his country." - Gen. George S. Patton, USA. That, ham, is what war is all about! Maximal gains with minimal losses. It's a very simple equation.
Quote: "Americans never go to slaughter to save others; they enter the war late, let others do most of the job, get paid for war supplies they produce in peace at home and get much of the cake afterwards."
Once again, the political and economical situation in the US at the time play so much more of a role in the dicission making process than you apparently understand. Fact; Even prior to the war, "isolationism" was the mandate of the people. Fact: The US was in the middle of THE worst economic depression in this nation's history. Fact: FDR wanted to enter the war because he knew it would boost the economy. Fact: FDR saw Nazi expansion as an eventual threat to the US. Fact: He wanted to help his friend Churchill.
These are FACTS, not my personal opinion, as compiled from what were then secret White House documents. That FDR knew of and allowed the attack on Pearl Harbor as a tool to motivate the public to permit him to declare war is my opinion which coinsides with the opinion of many US historians who have had access to certain documents which support this very distict PROBABILITY as being what happened.
Now, I will set all of these FACTS aside and return to the original debate. You blame Churchill for the Russian occupance of eastern Europe, and I blame FDR for not backing him against Stalin.
So returning to this original debate, I ask you a very simple question. Do you actually believe that at the end of WWII, England had the millitary might to push Stalin's forces out of eastern Europe without US support???????????????????????????
Quote: "Japan could as well have occupied Hawaii, but (as with Hitler & Britain ) they probably never wanted a real all-out war with America; only to make sure they got green light in Asia & the pacific region, much like Hitler never dreamt to disassemble the British empire; diminish it, yes."
Hahahahahahaha!!! And just how long do you really think a Japanese occupation of US soil would have lasted? "All we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant." Adm. Isoroku Yamamoto.
quote:What piece of the "cake " did the US get????? I really want to know this one. Territories gained by the US... a few 3rd world islands in the middle of the Pacific. THAT'S IT!!! Oh, a millitary base in Turkey and one in Germany, not the whole country and it's resources.
So you can count on your fingers countries occupied by US military or depending on US aids BEFORE WWII and say in 1950, then you will see you have half of Europe and more to come.
They got to set the pace for world economics etc.
quote: FACT: The US lost more troops in 4 years than Britain did in 7, so the losses, although nowhere near the staggering numbers of casualties the Nazis, Italians, Russians, Japanese, or Chinese experienced were there.
Here they think differently
http://www.secondworldwar.co.uk/casualty.html
quote:Hahahahahahaha!!! And just how long do you really think a Japanese occupation of US soil would have lasted? "All we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant." Adm. Isoroku Yamamoto.
Lasted enough to warrant raids on US mainland for say 3-4 years (as the occupation of most Asia lasted anyways ), perhaps.
Or are you saying Americans are tougher than Russians?
quote:Do you actually believe that at the end of WWII, England had the millitary might to push Stalin's forces out of eastern Europe without US support???????????????????????????
THEY set THEMSELVES up, as I said.
In spite of being back then THE world power, they botched it on this end much like Hitler did by miscalculation.
Why would America enter another war - i said- to restore Britain as world power? Etc.
What would they tell the american public, after feeding them the tale of being allied with the most honest in the world?
Sorry, miscalculated...Germany was a bit better all things considered...?
I think we did this angle to death now.
"think we did this angle to death now."
So here's a new one:
In the beginning there was nothing, and it exploded. Something comes from nothing.
All the "fragments" arising from this explosion of "zero-point" are attracted or repulsed by each other, depending on the various charges they have. In the case of simpler structures, such as elementary particles, the result is relatively straightforward. Some kind of balance or reciprocial annihilation is acchieved. In the case of more complex structures, eg biological beings, the situation isn't that simple, because so many factors have to be considered.
If we take complex beings like biological life, the are two outcomes of a meeting-process between differently charged structures (individuals) involved.
One individual absorbs ("eat") the other. The predatory principle, with a one-way flow of matter/energy.
The individuals create an equilibrium between them with a two-way flow of matter/energy. Symbiosis.
For reasons which I will not delve to deep in, the predatory principle seems to be the most fashionable in the universe (it has to do with the strong anthropic principle, creating negative enthropy, and resulting in biological beings functioning as separators. We "split up" the different components of existence into various components). This is mostly, if not completely, a mechanical process.
I have formerly expanded on predation and symbiosis, and will here repeat a little of what I've said earlier. From the point of wiev of the participants, predation can be a dubious method, whereas symbiosis has some advantages. But the problem with symbiosis is, that it's a slower method, and for complex beings (be they humans, angels, small greys or reptils living on Draconia) it requires a "conscious" (aware) effort to effectuate. Predation is "natural" in the sense, that the universe supports this method by making it easy and automatic, whereas symbiosis is working uphill.
Sofar I've talked about what happens, when individuals, cultures or species meet in the predatory (or symbiotic process). Now I will turn to, what happens inside an individual, with a special interest on human beings.
We have mainly three major components: Body, emotions and intellect. My postulate is, that the predatory principle also function between these three parts inside a human being. We are at war with ourselves. (Find your own examples). But the possibility of using symbiosis directed inwards exists. This is the fundament of most methods used for self-developement, no matter what outer wrappings they have (religion, philosophy etc).
Inner predation creates "noise", turbulence, and does not make for any deeper introspection /selfknowledge. So the first step is ofcourse to create inner "silence" and to look at your own mechanisms. A lot of different methods have been developed for these purposes, and it's not my intention to advocate one as preferable. Though a few generalities can be put out.
The best "place" to find inner silence is, when we are in the alpha-brainwave state. Meditation, biofeedback, relaxation, the state between sleep and daily wakeness is the alpha-state. The best way to practise introspection/selfknowledge is to think of yourself as a set of mechanical responses (at the start. Later you'll find some more "free-will" aspects). Inner silence and introspection work together.
REAL change can be made from this situation.
swede, welcome back. I hope you feel better.
I must inject a third player in your equation from the start. The laws of nature pretty much dictate that there MUST be balance for existance to be maintained.
Even within your theory of preditor versus prey, there is a balance of sorts. Although I am persoally attached to the North American wolf, I think that the African lion would be a better illustration. Thousands of antelope, hundreds of lions. Okay. The lions eat heartily and reproduce, while only the quickest and smartest of the antelope survive. Now there are too many lions and food becomes scarce.
The weaker preditor bloodlines die off for lack of food, while the stronger survive, just as what happened with their prey, until a balance is regained.
But what of the elephants? They are neither prey nor preditor.
Now I go to basic chemistry. One proton (preditor) and one electron (prey) and you have an expolisive situation. Throw a few neutrons (which I haven't thought of a simple word for) into the mix and everything is nice and stable. So we must consider the neutrals as well.
quote:The best "place" to find inner silence is, when we are in the alpha-brainwave state.
Here, we are neutral... we are neither preditor nor prey as we have ventured to a place where neither matters. The almighty trick is to be able to retain and bring back what we find there when we return to a fully concious state, and then, to integrate this into our waking reality.
I will also elaborate on a few of my personal goals within this framework of thought. I wish to be an elephant, neither preditor nor prey. Since the main theme here is still about the relations between men and women, I will tie it in. Regarding symbiosis, I will take this principle one step further and divide it into two categories. Symbiotic need and symbiotic desire. Symbiosis as it is often defined is two organisms surviving for mutual benefit.
In the FSU/MOB world, this is often broken down to man wants (sorry swede) hottie, and hottie (sorry again, swede) wants a swimming pool, so they make a symbiotic exchange of sorts. What I hope to find, is that certain someone who absolutely does not NEED me for any measurable reason, but who chooses to be with me for reasons beyond that. So, symbiosis can come in several forms as well.
Hi PeopleS; thanks, I'm OK now.
"The weaker preditor bloodlines die off for lack of food, while the stronger survive, just as what happened with their prey, until a balance is regained."
You're absolutely right. That's the way things are at the food chain (the REAL NEEDS), and no-one can do much, if anything, about it. I'm not trying to make the lion graze with the lamb. I'm talking about unnecessary predation. The need for swimmingpools f.ex. Or for the alpha male to have as many conquests as possible. These are reptile desires without any real need for survival behind them. Only seeking status/glamour.
"Now I go to basic chemistry. One proton (preditor) and one electron (prey) and you have an expolisive situation."
Actually this situation is more like symbiosis. The proton and the electron have a balance together, mutually attracted, but not destroying each other.
"The almighty trick is to be able to retain and bring back what we find there when we return to a fully concious state, and then, to integrate this into our waking reality."
If we compare to the average person's sheepwalking, I will postulate, that the alpha-state is closer to awakened consciousness. But ofcurse we should take the results back with us into normal life, once we have the knack, because "normal" life is where, we spend most of our time. As almost everybody has experienced, the alpha-state (this has nothing to do with alpha males) gives a certain amount of peace. If you can take this with you, you are not so apt to start meaningless fights about nothing.
PeopleS, your own original culture did much of the same. They did many things not directly associated with daily life (initiation, spirit-journeys etc), but everything was incorporated in the survival needs and made a good mix.
"In the FSU/MOB world, this is often broken down to man wants (sorry swede) hottie, and hottie (sorry again, swede) wants a swimming pool, so they make a symbiotic exchange of sorts."
If these two types of people would just shoot it out with each other, both as need and desire, I wouldn't stand in the way of their happiness. I mean sadists and masochists also have a kind of symbiosis. Without ever having had to use their services, I consider hookers as a very respectable part of human community. Business women with relatively fixed prices and deliverance. And it would be ideal, if sex-tourists and scammers did the same. Then you and I could look for our wifies in peace.
I hope everbody understand, that I'm not proposing some kind of yogic lifestyle. My intensions are to demonstrate scam and its antidotes in a broader context. FSU scammers are only one facet of scamming in general. And if you are integrated with yourself (maybe this is a better word than inner symbiosis, though it means the same), your chances of getting positive results in cyberdating are better. Just to take the first pitfall: You SEE the warningsigns, but for some reasons you want this girl so much, that you ignore them. I did this myself. I should have left UA after a week instead of three months.
Raw strength or power is not the answer to cyber-dating. If that was the case, american relationships would be much happier, because americans worship dynamic strength/power. "Wisdom"/integration will help you much better.
I doubt anybody will disagree with me, that a person who's functional gets easier through life than a dysfynctional one. OK, so maybe my suggestions of the why's and how's of being functional as an individual are a bit unusual. But the discussion is an important start to the subject of FSU scamming. The days of innocent dreaming of the cute little perfect woman are over. Now it's time to start thinking either of the mortgages on the swimmingpool or how to approach cyber-dating realistically.
quote:"In the FSU/MOB world, this is often broken down to man wants (sorry swede) hottie, and hottie (sorry again, swede) wants a swimming pool, so they make a symbiotic exchange of sorts."
i said it here
i am not all-out against arranged relationships.
all the more because I found out at my dearest expenses that fluffy, pastel-colored, disinterested relationships are not of this world (well, one in a million maybe, but it's not going to be me ).
the only problem is that one might strike a pretty good balance with an arranged relationship engineered in cold blood, but i'm afraid it is going to be a transient one.
Sure, as long as Pedro is the only dog who bothered visiting abroad while all others self-proclaimed millionaires and neurosurgeons were busy with their Emmy awards nominations...
but his edge is bound to disappear once she lands here.
Financial hardship, illness etc can take heavy tolls, and there is no guarantee that whoever you are, you'll be faring as good as you are today for the next 30 years.
as posted elsewhere:
quote:I believe the concept of a lot of the guys who bring their wives abroad feel this compulsory need to send then to college once they arrive. I can think of no better way to end your marriage, and more importantly seal one?s fate than fall into this fatal trap. Remember, she is selling a bag of goods which generally consists of ?good wife?, ?good mother?? ?cozy home?. Your contribution is ?stability?, ?fidelity?, ?security?. If she is ready to get married, than logic would suggest that her ambition of finalizing or continuing her education are finis. It is amazing to me, that what appear to be bright guys, post on these RW message boards that they are excited to be sending their new FSU bride to the local University to invest in their future together. However, are looking for some desperate seal of approval that this course of action is a good idea. I have always posted that it is the absolute worst idea plausible and would bet money, marbles or chalk, it was their MOB?s idea. I argued with a guy (English chap) profusely over this who had an age differential similar to my wife and I. He began to become insulting, so I left him with the thought and comfort of knowing while he was slaving all day in the salt mines to make the mortgage, know that his 21 year old hottie was learning new and innovating ideas in an exciting environment with chaps her age. I wonder how long it took until the after-hours study sessions kicked in. And how long it would take her to notice how tired out her hubby looked each evening, and how exciting it would be to hook-up with the lad who was pre-med, and would be attending Oxford in the spring?
"i am not all-out against arranged relationships"
My knowledge of Chinese daily life is secondhand, but from what I hear, chinese marriages generally last longer than they do in FSU (or for that sake the west). When a chinese woman is married, she mostly stays married. In spite of the fact, that there are more men than women in China (meaning a woman or her parents can be more choosy while looking for a husband), this has not made the women into selfabsorbed hedonists.
And the marriages are often based as much upon a sensible approach as on a some romantic fantasy of love. I once read a chinese woman saying, that love is something you develop AFTER you marry.
So with the reservation, that my information is insufficient or outdated, there's a lot to be said about arranged relationships. To put this in context with my own ruminations, it means, that your chances for a functional relationship is higher, if it is based on "integration". Personal integration in each of the involved parts, and also between them. You take all aspects of your individual psychology/character and your lifesituation into consideration.
When writing posts here, I'm always wondering, if some of the readers think, that I'm dishing out platitudes (wrapped in highbrow language), and in this case maybe take the word "integration" as another example. I want to clarify this by putting it into relief with its opposite: Dreaming up a fantasy. I have formerly here talked much about "swapping dreams" as a major part of cyber-dating (and especially as a part of FSUW's sociopsychological mental background). Creating such dreams and using them as a base for a relationship seems to be an impossible startingpoint. You don't know yourself, neither does your partner, and none of you have any idea of the cultural changes implied. This I call non-integration, and it is a common human lack.
On this background it surprises me, that so little interest has been shown on this subject when discussing cyberdating. We get occasionally very good pragmatic observations (eg swazzie and goddiejens), but very little about the psychological, social or cultural mechanisms involved. Except for Ham, PeopleS and me, the wish or will to delve deeper in this direction is small. On the other hand, a lot of people obviously read it, even when we go off in depth into some subject, which at first look seems to be unrelated to cyberdating.
An example: When a western man (especially the american average variety) goes to another culture, he brings a lot of mental luggage with him, which no foreigner can understand. As a european, I have f.ex. big problems understanding the american approach to sex. For me the american attitude on this subject looks like "sheepwalker" indoctrination, mirroring the christian church's very confused opinion of what sex is, and what to do about it. So it's important to look into that phenomenon. As it is with almost every part of life.
quote:As a european, I have f.ex. big problems understanding the american approach to sex.
I can shed some light on this for you. Generally speaking, American men are basically searching for a bi-polar wife... someone who, in a sense, has a split personality. It's the old adage, "We want our cake and eat it too!" We want Betty Crocker, Donna Reid and any other symbol of American 1950s womanhood, as the "NICE" girl who you can take home to mom. But, in private, when the lights go out (or leave 'em on if you prefer), we also want this same girl to transform into a raving sex fiend who knows how to do EVERYTHING that you may find in a "The Best OF..." porno movies.
Perhaps the American fascination with sex stems from our "God fearing" nationalistic roots? Sex has always been a "dirty" subject here, where as I understand it is not so in Europe (I refer to open discussion and sex education in schools, not as though Europeans engage in open sex in the streets). It's kind of like the "forbidden fruit" of life here, and isn't something talked about by "decent" people.
The desire for Betty Crocker, Donna Reid is, in my view, male backlash to the feminist movement of the '70s. We want both in one woman, and I think that is the big attraction to the FSUW. Early propaganda told us that here are these beautiful, sexy women who still have 1950s style American attitudes toward family life. It's a perfect fit! We can't stand our women and there men are all "drunkards"! We give them the love and caring that they want, and we have a hot, young, sexy Betty Crocker who will have dinner ready for us when we get home from work and will then "take care" of other things too.
It sounds good on paper, and maybe there have been a few instances of such marriages between western men and FSUWs, but as we all have learned, reality is a bit different from the propaganda that started all this FSU/MOB stuff.
quote:I hope everbody understand, that I'm not proposing some kind of yogic lifestyle. My intensions are to demonstrate scam and its antidotes in a broader context. FSU scammers are only one facet of scamming in general. And if you are integrated with yourself (maybe this is a better word than inner symbiosis, though it means the same), your chances of getting positive results in cyberdating are better. Just to take the first pitfall: You SEE the warningsigns, but for some reasons you want this girl so much, that you ignore them. I did this myself. I should have left UA after a week instead of three months.
Sometimes, we overlook the wisdom of some pretty corny old sayings, but "To thine own self be true..." If you're 70 yo, and you're writing to an 18 yo goddess, ask yourself why is this girl (young enough to be my granddaughter) bothering with me and my Viagra pumped genitalia? Is it love flurishing?
ham is right that Pedro who lives in a studio apartment in east L.A. along with fourteen other illegal immigrants, but told his FSU sweety that he has more money than Julio Englaisis, has no chance of success in a real meeting, but for some reason, he tried anyway. Why??? Did he think she would still love him just because they exchanged e-mails for a few months, even though everything he told her was a lie? This all being based on the premise that the girl was real and not a scammer after Julio Jr.'s money.
I think that MOST of the guys on the stop-scammers forums are basically honest in there correspondence, and it is a matter of how well the scammer hides her/his true self, that are the difference between success and failure. I've been totally straight with the girl I'm going to see, including sending her a photo of myself holding a beer in one hand and a cigarette in the other. She knows who and what I am. Maybe she's a scammer who's waiting for me to take her shopping as I have promised I would? I'll find out in a month, but either way, I know I was honest about myself.
quote:Pedro who lives in a studio apartment in east L.A. along with fourteen other illegal immigrants, but told his FSU sweety that he has more money than Julio Englaisis, has no chance of success in a real meeting, but for some reason, he tried anyway. Why??? Did he think she would still love him just because they exchanged e-mails for a few months, even though everything he told her was a lie? This all being based on the premise that the girl was real and not a scammer after Julio Jr.'s money.
well, human psyche is like quicksands.
its abyss cannot be measured.
Well, she might NOT be a "scammer", but her perception of Pedro's station is - for all we love it or hate it - what makes Pedro a whole person and ultimately determines her opinion of him and therefore her choice; unfair, maybe... but profiling is as old as man.
Same as Pedro's opinion and therefore choice WILL change if she is a short, chubby, hairy wop woman with olive skin, hollow teeth and Manchu mustaches...instead of the slender, blond beauty queen with flawless ivory skin and colgate smile...
Why do men lie?
Considering only a minute fraction will ever visit, it is a daunting question.
I never wasted anyone's time as that would mean disrespecting myself rather than some stranger I've never met; but some feel otherwise.
I never stop barking up the tree of online braggarts, frauds and impersonators.
I surmise they are poor souls who NEED licensed psychotherapy but cannot afford it, and resort to the internet.
Some may be in pain and hope that by the time of the meeting (which will never come, but they still hope ) they will have shed those 40kg excess weight; will have worked out a killer body; will have regrown hair or undergone plastic surgery; will have climbed the corporate ladder from hamburger flipper to six figures wages, company jets and all that hogwash; will have you name it.
They know they are as fake as three euros coins from Egypt, but they can hope...
I sometimes have a look at IMDB.COM and you'd be surprised how many clowns claim they have met this or that movie celebrity (both big & small ticket )...not at some fan convention or autograph signing event after standing in queue for 13 hours... no, up close&personal...she was their high-school sweetheart; he was their middle school best friend; they met him at some trendy gay party next week; they meet her regularly at her hairdresser's...
And on the other side of the fence gawking lurkers compliment them over their achievements..." Wow Frank...I envy you...I wish I were riding a Rolls Royce like you do "; " Wow Sally...you have a killer body...no wonder Dior offered you a three millions contract"; " Wow Joe...I play saxophone in a basement to raise money to support my aging mother...lucky you for winning seven platinum music awards and for discovering Frank Sinatra...".
Boy oh boy...do frauds LIVE for those compliments...
Like the murderous queer psychopath in THE SILENCE OF THE LAMBS, who would murder women and skin them to sew himself a dress so that one day he'd pupate into the fairy of his maladjusted dreams, they hope to one day...you name it.
HI Ham and PeopleS,
thanks for your latest posts, which I found very interesting. And sorry about my own silence; my PC has been down a few days. I will once more return to this citation from PeopleS:
and one from Ham:
"well, human psyche is like quicksands. its abyss cannot be measured."
We are very far from having a reliable map of the human psyche, but we can make reasonable approximations. If we want, that is!! Sheepwalkers don't want.
Apart from my speculations hither and dither as to the nature of reality, there is still something, which everybody can agree upon (even if they don't want to practise it), and that's a fundamental kind of honesty. Ham, PeopleS and I have arrived at this conclusion by different paths, and hopefully most of our silent readers have done it also. Even from a cynic's point of wiev, honesty is functional. If you lie to the rest of the world, it'll sooner or later get back to you. Not in the form of some divine retribution, but as a habit which will be turned inwards. You'll start lying to yourself also, rationalizing everything to your own advantage, changing your life into an inner drama, a soap-opera. Life is too tough for soap-opera dreamers to survive happily, you need observance about, what is really going on around you to be functional.
It's a bad circle to live in a soap-opera.The more mythomaniac you get, the greater problems you'll have. Mostly with authorities or friends/family walking out on you. Usually it ends as with PeopleS ex - ###(???? or the fair amount of alcoholics (and sometimes junkies) I've met. But the answer is simple and close at hand: Be honest with yourself. You don't even have to stop your career as a criminal or sociopath, as long as you admit to yourself, what you're doing. A lot of changing attitude is not quantum leaps, but the small daily decisions, which are possible to everybody. (Ofcourse you can also make quantum leaps, if you want, but we are not in the messiah business here).
The modern excuses: "My pottytraining was so bad, that I can't make decisions and I can't take responsibility" or "I believe in materialistic philosophy, making me into a pre-programmed machine. So I'm not able to act differently" can be met with: "Sorry, I ALSO had a bad pottytraining/am a soul-less machine, so when I beat you up/call the police/my lawyer, it's not personal. It's just the way things are".
To keep the popularity-index steady, I'll continue with this citation from PeopleS (it should be popular):
"Sex has always been a "dirty" subject here, where as I understand it is not so in Europe (I refer to open discussion and sex education in schools, not as though Europeans engage in open sex in the streets). It's kind of like the "forbidden fruit" of life here, and isn't something talked about by "decent" people."
The "forbidden fruit" label PeopleS here talk about is an expression of what I call "sheepwalker indoctrination". Sex has been declared "unclean" by some religious doctrines. Doctrines which have been spread at gunpoint or by propaganda. But as is the case with so many other taboos, the sexual taboos are crumbling (and we maybe get new ones instead?).
I also am not a supermale, whom women hang around in aboundance. But nonetheless I'm not going to die curious. Apart from some varieties which I have refrained from on personal grounds or moral principles, my sexual experiences have never been hampered by taboos. As long as "two consenting adults........etc" the average north european attitude is: This is OUR business. A person from this area is often well able to be a "raving sex-maniac" and still be a decent person. Only don't look to Sweden. It's too much like America this way.
It's saturday night, so here is:
The story of Elena.
Episode number three (or maybe four. Or whatever).
Resum? for new readers: Don't you mind. Nobody could follow the twists of it anyway.
The doctor from Iowa is now out money, booze and wife, but not out of rash. This is a rash from the time, when rashes were rashes, and men were men. Often together. He's now sitting with his friend, who's also a MD; the one who has supplied him with the very expensive, and equally ineffective, salve for the rash. Doctor no 1 is complaining bitterly about the faithlessness of ukrainian women, wives and bankcards.
Doctor no 2 gets ideas. He's been divorced 2-3 years now, and having his own practise, there aren't enough nurses around to help him through. Altogether he's somewhat unhinged. He decides to go and visit Elena. Rash or no rash.
As one doctor is much like the other (especially those from Iowa), his visit in Ukraine is not recorded here, but as a result, Elena has her bathroom redone by help of a donation, doctor no 2 gave her for her granny's heartoperation. This time a bypass. Though it would take some bypass to make granny functional again, as she's been dead for years, and now lives in virtual reality.
The bathroomwalls are now tastefully decorated with motives of swimmingpools and dollarbills, and the silhouette of Elena can be seen through the transparent curtains of the showercabin. Her two prominent......
STOP! WARNING!
WE MEAN IT!!
Before you can read further, you must find somewhere or someone, you can convince, that you are above age, and that you do not take part of any subversive activities (this means practically everything outside of being member of your local secret police).
Should anyone underage have sneaked in, in spite of these rigorious safety-precautions, we will on general principles use selfcensure. After all this serial is mainly for an american public, and we're not taking any risks.
.......Her two prominent ..beeb, beeb.. stands out, proud and free, just as lower down her ..beeb.. would ..beeb.. any man's ..beeb.. As she turns around in the shower, her rounded ..beeb, beeb.. are a delight to anyone, who's interested in that kind of smut.
Elena is dreaming of ..beeb..
I can see that my assistant in charge of beebs is signalling me, that our beebs have run out. This is a low-budget production, and I can assure you, that beebs are quite expensive. Good quality beebs suitable for family serials don't grow on trees. They have to be approved by The daughters, mothers, wives and other associates of the american revolution, The lesbian jihad council, Women against ..beeb.. (in case anyone wonders, they brought their own beeb), The legion of: "Would you want your daughter to marry one of THOSE?" and some gentlemen in white robes.
Anyway: .........Elena is dreaming about money, and .........
I have a strong feeling, that I have lost my audience. But considering that I'm only a substitute mailman on the beat where this studio lies, who's been hijacked into this serial on the assumption: Mailman=writing=literary=mailman, because their scriptwriter has been sober for two weeks, maybe I'm excused.
My next contribution will be a: "Behind the scenes", unless we can pry Elena away from the bathroomwall motives. But seeing she's put a cot and a waterboiler in there, the future is uncertain.
quote:We are very far from having a reliable map of the human psyche
With good reason. From a practical stand point, I would compare mapping human psyche like mapping a twisting, turning and endless cave in total darkness. Go in too far, and your lost.
Honesty is something that is used only when convenient by far too many people. There are an endless number of "types" of lies to fit any circumstance. We all know of the "little white lie". Usually used as not to hurt someone's feelings. "Honey, does this make me look fat?" Very few men, including myself would come straight out and say yes, let alone what we might really be thinking which is, "Babe that dress makes you look like Jabba the Hut in drag." Still, I thought my girl looked really bad, I might find the courage to say something, but definitely choose my words with the utmost care and diplomacy!
Lying is easy. Sometimes it's much easier than telling the truth. Lies are necessary evils in society. If a homocidal maniac say, "Is your mom home, because I'm going to kill her if she is." I think most people would say their mom isn't home (unless of course you hate your mom, in which case, Freud was right). However there are far too many lies that aren't going to do any more than lead to bigger problems later.
And to tie this back to FSU/MOB dating... If you are serious about finding an FSU bride, there is absolutely nothing to be gained by lying about yourself, your status, your finances or anything else. FSUWs are bright, intelligent women!!! They will figure it out, and then what will you do?
My correspondence with my FSUW has been very honest from my end. I live in an apartment, not a big house with a swimming pool. I'm a commercial HVAC service tech, not a banker or the owner of the company. I'm far from rich, but I do pretty good. Not millions, but a couple thousand in the bank and 4 undeposited paychecks in my wallet because I don't need to worry about making deposits every week to barely cover my bills.
Too many men will lie to these girls about finances etc, to make themselves more desirable, and end up looking like fools when they meet the girl who thinks her man is a millionaire, when reality is he borrowed the money for the trip from his parents because even the bank would lend him money. It's no different than a guy going to meet his 5'9" 120 lb model and finding her to be 5'2" and 140 lbs.
Although, on the TV show "Sienfeld", George Kastanza when talking about passing a polygraph said, "It isn't really a lie, if you actually believe in it yourself."??????????????? Hmmmmmmmmmm???
quote:But as is the case with so many other taboos, the sexual taboos are crumbling (and we maybe get new ones instead?).
Yes! But like evolution itself, changing sexual attitudes here in the US has been and will continue to be a slow process. Sex ed was actually taught for one whole half semester my senior year of high school back in 1981. There is sex everywhere, but it's still an un-spoken subject on a more serious level. It's common on TV, movies and music, but was treated as something that we shouldn't discuss for so long that it's taking time to change the attitude of the general population.
The sexual ego of the American male will certainly take even longer to change!!!!!!!!!
quote:Only don't look to Sweden. It's too much like America this way.
So, it's not just Americans????
Sad to say. Sweden and US are very alike in some respects. But then Sweden is a bit special for the european community.
I guess the main reason is, that we have a small, but extremely noisy group of hard-core calvinists here. Nowadays it's a bit better, but before they seemed to be just everywhere, f.ex. being represented in the swedish parliament with five times their number in the general population statistics (25/5%).
On principle they are against anything, which could be even slightly fun, with the possible exception of coffee and creamcakes.
And they have some very unchristian fascination for collecting money.
Does it sound familiar?
The rest of northwest Europe is quite civilised, with some lovely women I will return my attention to, next time such will be on the program.
Yes, avid readers, there is a tad bit more here, on the "pschobabbling" thread, than over the top postings about the human psyche and how it relates to FSU/MOB dating using a plethora of eight syllable words that contain upwards of twenty consonants with only two vowels, within run-on sentences that take up a whole paragragh, when five or six four letter words would have proven more than sufficient to make the point. In other words... We like to have fun too! See!!! six words, and none more than four letters long![:o)]
We have the on-going saga of our heroine (not to be confused with heroin without the "e" on the end, which is the drug my ex-junkie wh@re girl friend chose over me causing me to become such a bitter sod), and favorite little FSU scam artist, transsexual, and somewhat sexually permissive trollop, who is fascinated with swimming pools... Elena (formerly known as Boris).
Fade in to a sleeping Elena as she awakens from her contented slumbers on the bathroom floor (she fell off the cot) surrounded by swimming pools...
She stands, stretches and yawns as she lifts the toilet seat and reaches for the man part which she no longer possesses to take her morning pee as she used to do when she was Boris. Fortunately, she realizes her faux pas before making a mess and assumes the proper seated position required by her recently aquired gender.
Unfortunately, she forgot to put the toilet seat back down! Now stuck in the bowl, with her well sculpted posterior (thanks to the sex change surgeon) soaking in her own urine, she decides to make the best of the situation until her newly hired Turkish maid comes to clean and can pull her out, and picks up her laptop which is never more than an arms length away.
She logs on to her favorite site and after deleting messages from the two doctors in Iowa, picks out a new target.
"Hmmmmmmmmm this Eustace Haney guy looks promising...", she thinks to herself. But, she decides against it and goes to one of the other fourteen sites she has profiles on.
After six tries at logging on, she finally remembers what name she used (Alena) to fill out her profile and checks her messages. BINGO!!! She sends her pre-written introduction letter in response.
Meanwhile, back in Iowa...
...Recently separated and still itchy Dr. No. 1, who has decided to place a profile ad using a different name, hears "You've got mail" from his computer...
Yes folks, I'm well into my Saturday night 30 pack of beer (for you international guys, in the US, 24 in a standard case just wasn't enough) and the literary genius is flowing from my fingers!!!
Oh, and the beep guy is on union break so I'm doing the best I can.
Typing with one hand and scratching with the other, the doc sends his reply. Can you see the irony here?
The maid has arrived, and Elena is free of her porcelain prison! But her bum has been soaking in urine for hours so back to the shower she goes... All I can say here is that the surgeon did one heck of a job!!! Oh my God! Look at her beep beep and her beep and what a spectacular beep beep beep!!! Union break is over.
Ha, PeopleS
you should try my homemade beer. It's not quite whiskey, but one day
it'll grow up, and then......
Now you've got E/Alena out of the bathroom, and I must say in a quite economical way, without using too many beebs, I hope we can have next week's episode instead of the "Behind the scene" (there's nothing so uninteresting as "Behind the scene"-scenes).
You, our faithful and overbearing audience, will in the near future be introduced to a new character: Biorn Biornssonssonsson. He will meet Elena/Alina or whatever she'll call herself then. But ofcourse everybody will sooner or later meet Elena, if they hang around cyberdating long enough.
Have a nice evening, PeopleS and everybody. We like the personal touch here at psychobabbling.
Hey swede! Maybe one of these days I'll take you up on that offer of a beer or 10 or 30!!!
Out of courtesy, I try to keep my postings within the basic civil guidelines that you establish when you started this thread (my mommy taught me that), and as the saga of Elena goes, you ARE the lead writer!!!:D[:o)]:D[:0][:o)][:o)] I simply try to follow your lead my friend! But as for Biorn (I always thought it was spelled Bjorn? My only knowledge of the name is that of the tennis star of the 70s), let's see.......
Fade back in... As Elena rinses the lather from her magnificently surgically sculpted, liposuctioned and silicone enhanced body, the phone, which she doesn't have, rings...
Now remembering a "date" she had made previously (before her bum became wedge in the lew), she rushes to the phone disregarding the water dripping from her bouncy jiggleys and other places that were maticulously shaved while showering.
"Boris... I mean Elena, it's Sergie, your friend Biorn is here at the cafe waiting for you."
Boris... I mean Elena, quickly dresses in a short, tight dress that barely covers her hot pink thong, thigh high boots with six inch stiletto heels and the compuslory push-up bra (as if she needs it... thanks sex change surgeon), a fur coat made from dyed rat pelts and hurries to the cafe in her new Masseratti (thanks Iowa doctors!), knowing her hair will be blow dried along the way... Fade to black.
At this point, I will skip ahead, since the stupid crap that happens at the cafe will bore you more than it'll bore me to write it!
Besides, the beep (I had to pay out of my own pocket for that beep) union beep guy is on strike and being well into my 30 pack, I fear I may loose the ability to self-censor...
But needless to say, granny's virtual heart is heading toward another overload!!!
quote: My correspondence with my FSUW has been very honest from my end. I live in an apartment, not a big house with a swimming pool. I'm a commercial HVAC service tech, not a banker or the owner of the company. I'm far from rich, but I do pretty good. Not millions, but a couple thousand in the bank and 4 undeposited paychecks in my wallet because I don't need to worry about making deposits every week to barely cover my bills.
abnormal psychology is really fascinating.
I mentioned elsewhere the wild compulsion many people feel to lie, misrepresent and bend reality.
The janitor becomes the principal (misrepresentation);
The hamburger flipper at Mac D burger joint claims to be "assistant manager for a billionaire company" (misrepresentation);
A bum living in a mobile home on welfare and occasional welding jobs claims to be a millionaire neurosurgeon ( flat out lie & reality bending )...
Since most women ask you first what your job is, or which car do you drive (your job= what your income might be, not your education. You can be triple Ph.D and earn squats ), weak-minded men are led to lie...then another lie to cover the first one...
Others are lost cases of a sociopath who truly believes he will pupate into the affluent, hard-bodied playboy of his delusion soon enough...so he isn't lying...
What really makes me sick is the morbid care most of these clowns put into carving their online (fake) personae...
The lawyer who claims his pre-nups cannot be challenged in court, while every homeless drunkard read on the newspapers he uses for insulation that even contracts by billionaire companies and wills by celebrities do get tested and changed in court, as if celebrities and billionaire companies hadn't good lawyers... EU sued Microsoft a fortune, so perhaps that gullible mr. Gates would need to hire our "online legal eagle"...
PFFT!
[xx(][:o)]:D
What's worst, they always find idiots giving them credit...
A 17yo clueless wop kid used for ages to act as "super moderator" on a very large fitness site, posing as sort of training guru & athlete and suggesting steroid and drugs usages and concoctions.
Before you puke, he didn't fool only 13yo kids, but many dealers even sent him steroids and chemicals "to test" so he'd "recommend" them online or something...
A 17yo wop kid?
:D[:o)][xx(]
as you probably can guess, I share your fascination for abnormal psychology. If we extend the meaning of abNORMAL. (Norm=normal being an expression of "average"), the question is, whether most of humanity is abnormal. A lot of our behaviour certainly doesn't seem rational.
Hope you know, that I respect your knowledge and your conclusions, so don't take the following as impertinent. Your observations seems to be on a pragmatic level, and you some days ago expressed a reluctance as to the possibility of delving deeper into human psychology. Personally I feel it's constructive to go further into this subject. Admittedly we haven't got all the answers, but we have enough knowledge to make some needed changes. Ofcourse including a functional application.
We have both seen guys on various anti-scam sites, who first report that they have been scammed either at a one-to-one basis or by a dating agency. And then go on: "But I've found THIS girl, agency or whatever, and it looks more straight or promising, so I'll give it a try".
Seen from the outside it seems to me, that most of the proposed next and better version of women or agencies are just as bad as the old ones. And hopefully without insulting anyone, I find it encredible naive, that none of the romantically inclined men can't see this.
This willingness to be conned is an expression of something in the individual psychology, and it would be very valuable to find the whys and hows of it. The actual scamming is just an outer symptom. Taking the symptoms away is ofcourse better than nothing, but it doesn't "cure" the mental dysfunction behind it.
I propose, that our former discussion of reptile behaviour (mostly in connection with social interaction) also can be useful when talking about individual psychology. Making the same distinction between needs and drives as we did before. Needs (survival and mating) being so deeply rooted as to be immovable, but the psychologically drives somewhat changing according to your background culture.
The survival-need in the industrialised nations is now a less pressing problem, than it was before. But the mating-need is still the same, and it's gratification is maybe even more difficult now, than it used to be.
"In the sixties we didn't talk so much about sex, but you could always find a partner. Now everybody talks about it all the time, but you can't get laid" (said in the late nineties).
The central point is how mating/sex is approached. From the instinctive NEED to the way the psychological DRIVE is (mis)used. Especially the latter is flexible in social contexts and have been used for a lot of more or less noble purposes in social engineering; from religions suppressing it to commercials using subliminal manipulation proposing sexual implications.
PeopleS: The beebs used in 'The story of Elena' are very politically correct. They are ecologically recyclable, and when finally discarded completely biodegradable. So don't buy more yourself, but re-use the old ones.
quote: Your observations seems to be on a pragmatic level, and you some days ago expressed a reluctance as to the possibility of delving deeper into human psychology.
In many cases it is possible to explain duplicitous behaviour rationally in terms of both tangible and non-tangible goods: money, favors, acclaim. I can understand that.
But I also met many braggarts and liars (especially online ) who don't seem to make a "rational choice" when they lie and engage in elaborate fantasies.
I mean what unearnt advantage do they get, if not soothing a chipped shoulder the size of Venus?
quote: We have both seen guys on various anti-scam sites, who first report that they have been scammed either at a one-to-one basis or by a dating agency. And then go on: "But I've found THIS girl, agency or whatever, and it looks more straight or promising, so I'll give it a try".
People are gullible...if the first tonic didn't regrow hair, maybe the new one will.
That's why people keep voting parties that promise best worlds of all, siphon billions in taxes but fail to deliver, while crooks in power buy villas and bathe in coded accounts stuffed with tax-free cash, in the face of the unwashed they inspirit with empty discourses about best of worlds to come...
Taxes?
They say progressive taxation is the embodiment of the solomonic wisdom of the scum prophet or demi-god of the day who loves us all as equals, yet governments and international organizations made a priority of THEIR royal monies being tax-free...
Can you explain that?
quote: This willingness to be conned
I think most are just scared the solution is there might be no solution.
quote:abnormal psychology is really fascinating.
As I often do, in between my references to 1960s Star Trek episodes, I hope to try to find a tie between our discussion and the general theme of the site, which is scammers in general, but FSUWs in particular since that is what we have each apparently dealt with at one time or another.
It would be interesting to here Sigmund Freud's take on why Barney, Pedro, Jamal and Wong would tell such lies to an FSUW, if they have any real intention to actually meet the girl. It's a self-destructive thing, which to me is reminiscent of my EX's self-destructive lying.
Do these people not realize that such lies as, "I'm the CEO of a muli-million dollar corporation", when reality is he's 40 yo and working in the mailroom, will be very easy to figure out sooner or later?
Maybe they think that their FSU sweetheart will fall madly in love with them when they meet and not care that she was lied to from the very beginning?
The reason for lying is a topic that in itself could fill several pages here. As I've said, there can be good lies, such as things not to hurt the feelings of a loved one, or to protect them from harm, but most lies ARE harmful eventually.
quote:We have both seen guys on various anti-scam sites, who first report that they have been scammed either at a one-to-one basis or by a dating agency. And then go on: "But I've found THIS girl, agency or whatever, and it looks more straight or promising, so I'll give it a try".
I admit to doing this as I hold on to a shread of hope that it's not all a lie, but only not in such a way as to become an easy mark. When venturing into cyberspace, particularly the FSU/MOB dating world, caution needs to be exercised, and those who do not learn from their mistakes, are doomed to repeat them. I forget who said that first, but it wasn't me.
What needs to be examined is what motivates these FSUW "hunters".
quote: But the mating-need is still the same, and it's gratification is maybe even more difficult now, than it used to be.
Aside from the sex tourist, is this what drives so many men to lie, and allow themselves to be lied to? Or is it a fantasy that has been presented as reality by scam artists?
swede, thanks for the update about the beeps. I was just a bit scared to p!ss-off the union guys![:o)]
As the only person I really can see from the inside is myself, I will (as un-egocentric as possible) talk about my own experiences with females.
Without being stinking rich (but with a stable economy) and also not being especially handsome, I have nonetheless had quite a few relationships with much younger, goodlooking women. The reason is, that I let people have the benefit of doubt and don't tell them to ..beeb.. off, just because they show potential for being parasitic. I let them demonstrate the parasitism, before I tell them to get lost.
I listen when they come to me with their problems (ofcourse I do this with men also) and for a while I'm uncle-psychotherapist Swede. The outcome, that I'm for the duration is paid back in the only currency such women know, half-baked emotions and sex, isn't anything I'm proud or ashamed of.
So the reason to bring up this, is to demonstrate something very typical of such women. There is a deep inner emptiness in them, and in spite of all the chances their good looks give them, they seem to be the more dysfunctional, the better they look. It can be compared with the really rich. They are just as unhappy as everybody else, always worrying about where the next zillion comes from.
It's surprising how big a part of the beautiful women there are, who are alcoholics, junkies, strongly neurotic or extremely hard hit by status-seeking in its most obnoxious forms. These women are not always sheepwalkers, because they often move in circles, where the real power exists. They don't need to make soap-opera fantasies about swimmingpools, furcoats or expensive cars. They HAVE them; at least for a while, if they play their cards well.
This example shows something very deep in human character. We need meaning in life. Those living in miserable circumstances have enough meaning by trying to survive. They don't have time or energy for existential reflextions, but as soon as you're on the sunny side, the emptiness, the inner black hole, will start spooking. It's typical, that some of the richest nations on the planet also have the highest suicide percentage. "The diseases of the rich".
So whether you live inside the soap-opera or stand outside it and look at it, it's the same. The defense against meaninglessness.
If you're not convinced, then take a look at organised religion. Not matter how idiotic, brutal or unsympathetic, people buy it, because it gives promises of meaning.
I know, that I'm almost like a terrier. I don't loosen my grip easily, and I'm stubbornly hanging on to the deeper why of human willingness to be fooled. The last couple or more posts have been about individual psychology, and we all have put our "why's" in them. My suggestion here is, that as long as we as individuals can't find something to live on or by, something being an integrated and true part of our own characters, we buy all kind of lies from the outside.
PeopleS, I'm sure you only mention Freud to tease me. You can take Freud and stuff him somewhere the sun doesn't shine, ..beeb.. him. Why don't you listen to your own forefathers, THEY had something sensible to say. But if you can forgive me my bike, I can forgive you Freud.
"What needs to be examined is what motivates these FSUW "hunters"."
Both the physical need for sex, but probably even more for psychological "drive" reasons. They want to show, that they are "a ..beeb.. of a man". I'm not here talking about the more romantic disposed types, who are not trophyhunters.
quote: I let people have the benefit of doubt and don't tell them to ..beeb.. off, just because they show potential for being parasitic. I let them demonstrate the parasitism, before I tell them to get lost.
-...- The outcome, that I'm for the duration is paid back in the only currency such women know, half-baked emotions and sex, isn't anything I'm proud or ashamed of.
well, having never had any "success" with women soever, and having never been "the life of the party" or similar, and with poor looks and no wealth/status to make up for it, i used to be very naive and entertain illusions of courtly romance and feelings, although that is no special part of what I was fed when a child.
"revenge of the nerd" or something i guess...
I no longer believe such nonsense... ok, perhaps one in a million aces it, but it's not going to be me anyways.
Men feel the need to be loved as they are, not as they pay...which is what happens most of the time anyways, in direct or indirect form.
Does Sarkozy truly believe Carla Bruni is attracted ONLY or mainly to his mesmerizing personality or sex appeal? Or wasn't she rather a forgotten aging fashion celebrity who now is offered again contracts she hadn't been in years because of the gossip surrounding her 19th "serious relationship" with a head of state?
As a spin doctor himself, Sarkozy should know he is a walking food stamp, but i bet that deep inside he surprises himself believing that he truly is a super-stud or a mesmerizing personality, whatever.
For him too, this "serious relationship N+1" is going to be the real one... as if...
[:o)][xx(]
We may hire the belle of the brothel, but while we are working on her nether regions we realize she's gazing the ceiling and probably thinking about her grocery list. A MOB seeker who on a forum attacked me from the mountain (or mole) top of his wonderful & moral self, was a sore loser who had accidentally overheard his newly brokered FSU-MOB confiding in a friend she did NOT love him (they had 2 children already ), but he was determined to keep the fire burning and hold the fort until she would eventually start loving him, which she had TOLD him to get married anyways.
quote:why Barney, Pedro, Jamal and Wong would tell such lies to an FSUW, if they have any real intention to actually meet the girl. It's a self-destructive thing, which to me is reminiscent of my EX's self-destructive lying.
Why does the "online lawyer" disseminate (self-proclaimed) expert advice online, and pure nonsense at that? Why do people give him credit?
Media & ads foster this "lie&misrepresent" mentality. Here there is this ad "I earn $1.000 AN HOUR. Find out how" [image of man with pockets stuffed with cash].
http://www.geocities.com/a280872/1000perhour.pdf
quote:What needs to be examined is what motivates these FSUW "hunters".
Easy pick.
The FSU is the last reservoir of white meat, where we average men can still hope one of these nordic beauty queens will talk to us.
the following is not a digression from our ongoing exchange of opinions, even if it may look so at first sight.
No answers/conclusions have a higher value of truth, than the parameters creating them. That is, the basic assumptions (axioms) you start from and the methods for processing these assumptions. Most, if not all, methods for finding truth are fundamentally belief-systems. Even science with its many intrinsic controlmechanisms is a beliefsystem.
Personally I am as disillusioned as you are, but it doesn't stop me from seeking answers anyway. I've just had to expand my area of search outside the generally accepted methods. I'm not denying the "truths" found f.ex. in science, they are functional inside the frame put up, and present-time science has actually been so graceful as to admit its own limitations and admit possibilities outside the socalled natural laws. E.g. what is the state of non-space/time or non-matter/energy? What is chaos as opposed to cosmos?
Translated to daily language: Does anything exist outside the normal, physical world we usually operate in?
This is a serious and accepted discussion going on in scientific circles, and even if no conclusive anwers have been agreed on yet, it's by now clear, that we have to redefine our approach to existence.
Ham, correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel, that you use a rather strict (philosophical) materialism as your base, avoiding the implications arising from an extension of this base. When I talk about "meaning" you answers give me the impression, that you consider all possible human activities as a result of a complex set of bio-chemical reactions, with some social fine-tuning finishing the process off. I'm just asking politely, not trying to insinuate anything.
Some arguments for or against materialism wouldn't be such a bad thing, but it's not my main purpose here. What I really want is to pin down our respective world wievs. If we do this, we can understand each other better, and readers of this topic won't get lost in the arguments being put out. You being a student of diplomacy, makes it reasonable to believe, that you more than most people understand the importance of understanding the basics of other people.
Greetings and salutations!
quote:Some arguments for or against materialism wouldn't be such a bad thing, but it's not my main purpose here.
Actually, materialism could be said to be the desire to have just a little more than one already has, and finds it's roots with the good ole caveman.
Once the basic necessity of survival is satisfied, what next? "I want more. I want better." Maybe a bigger chunk of today's kill? Maybe a better place to sleep? Maybe a better looking woman??? (As women were more or less possessions then and still are to the modern day caveman. We all know there are a few around.)
So, as I see it, materialism is another of those deep rooted primal instincts that mankind can thank the caveman for. More and better are the drivinf force behind the industrialized world, as generally, survival can be taken for granted. Aside from a very few altruistic individuals, most of our science is driven by money one way or another.
quote:Translated to daily language: Does anything exist outside the normal, physical world we usually operate in?
Even Steven Hawking hasn't been able to figure that one out. From a purely scientific stand point, there are only two truths in the universe... the known and the yet to be known.
As I do possess spiritual beliefs, although not dictated by organized religions, I tend to lean toward the unknowable as being a possible answer, but am always open to new possibilities.
"Actually, materialism could be said to be the desire to have just a little more than one already has, and finds it's roots with the good ole caveman."
I meant materialism as a philosophical school (not as in consuming), saying that matter/energy is the basis of existence and that everything else are derivates from that.
I know, that Hawkins tried to get around some of the problems connected with quantum physic's implications. He wanted to "skip" certain questions connected with causality (cause/effect) being part of the creation of the universe, by postulating that the universe so to speak created itself. This way the possibility of an architect (god?) could be left out of the equation. He later took back the theory of selfgenerating universes.
Chaos just means that which is not cosmos, and very few scientists deny the existence of chaos. The interesting thing is, what chaos is like, because anything not ordered by the natural laws governing cosmos, would look like "magic" seen from a "normal" point of wiev.
Magic can ofcourse be used to describe a lot of phenomena, and some people would like to use it to justifify all kinds of spectacular theories or religions. This is not my intention.
I just try to point out, that there are more dimensional aspects to existence than those we are used to, and that maybe SOME of the answers to life is to be sought there. It's rather obvious, that ordinary existence as we know it, is unable to answer the big life-questions alone.
Philosophical materialism is very difficult to defend nowadays. It simply doesn't fit with what we know.
I share your beliefs, PeopleS. Also without being organised religious.
I only abstain from using the word "spiritual" because it like the word "god" has so many unwanted associations. And I deeply believe, that a culture which has given up this extra possible dimension of existence, is not truly functional. So we have f.ex. the growing problem of scamming in all its varieties.
It is important to emphasize, that I do not deny the value of ordinary
physical information, such as we use in our daily lives. I only want to add something extra to this.
It's there the question of meaning in life comes in. This question is not something academic/intellectual. It is a state of being. Something which it is possible to experience.
But as long as we have a set of sheepwalker filters telling us this or that, we are unable to experience this state. There's absolutely nothing mystical about it, but it's anti-dogmatic to a very high degree, so it looks very strange when described.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! Well, in a cosmic sense, I will once again make one of my famous (or infamous) Star Trek references... It has been said that Gene Roddenbury may have been one of them, meaning an ET because of so many of the "of the wall" concepts (social issues aside) that he proposed in that 1960s TV series, from flip phone style communicators to desktop computers to ion drive interplanetary engines (which have also become reality).
Multi dimensions and time travel were nothing new, but I personally know of no reference to "anti-matter", which is one of the things used to propel the Starship Enterprise through space at factors of the speed of light, prior to Star Trek.
"Anti-matter" is now something being talked about in scientific communities as a possible answer for one of their major dilemmas right now, which is that if you measure the mass of EVERYTHING in the currently known universe and add it all up, it simply doesn't explain all the space between objects. There aren't enough atoms to go around.
It's a simple fact that 99% of all cosmology is purely theory and speculation, since we are at present incapable of touching and/ or physically analyzing the cosmos, let alone what you refer to as chaos. Maybe, "anti-matter" is chaos as you describe it?
From Hawking's blackhole theory (which he himself later dismissed) to quantum physics, theory after theory is unleash on the world in a vain attempt to explain EVERYTHING, and nothing quite fits. So science tries to reason exception after exception to the rule they just made up until there are simply too many exceptions for the general rule to make sense anymore, so they make up another and another.
Spiritual is what you want it to be. It doesn't HAVE to mean an almighty and all knowing God. Ghosts are sometimes refered to as spirits. In Native American beliefs, trees, animals, the sun and the moon, the water, the sky, the clouds in the sky, fire, wind, all things of the natural world contain spirits. No one said anything about God. Sure, reference to "The Great Spirit", can be looked at as a God like reference, true, but at the same time, I see it as a reference to the spirit of the universe itself.
Spirits can exist in any one dimension or in all at the same time. The number of possible dimensions, of course, being infinite by our present understanding. No, I didn't recently get my hands on some really good paote.
Again, as I see the scientific world's attitude toward everything as being black and white... It's the known, and the not known YET. I simply think there's a third and fourth possibility which may be one in the same, which are the "unknowable", and the more philosophic, "not meant to be known until you are able to truly accept what reality is".
Is this "sheepwalking"? I don't think so. I see it as simply being open to other possibilities. Maybe evrything really can be explained in a mathematical equation as yet to be formulated... maybe it can't?
quote:But as long as we have a set of sheepwalker filters telling us this or that, we are unable to experience this state. There's absolutely nothing mystical about it, but it's anti-dogmatic to a very high degree, so it looks very strange when described.
It's sad to admit that the "sheepwalkers" carry weight with their blind opinions, but that IS an unfortunate part of reality as it currently exists. Again, how to change this line of thought is something I have no answer for. What I can say, is to merely continue on your path, as I will continue on mine, and if not be the one to provide the answers, at least be one of those who is free enough of "spirit" to ask the questions, if not so much publically, but of yourself.
Are you happy? See what happens when I think tooooooooooooo much? So, how's our favorite FSU/MOB scamming trollip Elena doing? And what of Bjorn?[:o)]
quote:to ion drive interplanetary engines (which have also become reality).
the credit goes to Nazis, who invented "electric rockets", later perfected into modern ionic propulsion such as the deep space automated probe.
quote:From Hawking's blackhole theory (which he himself later dismissed)
i don't think he dismissed the idea of black holes.
he quibbled for decades with Susskind, another physicist, over the so-called "paradox of information" and his idea black holes would at one point disappear.
I think he took notice of Susskind's idea about information never being lost, but somewhat dilating at the level of the event horizon ( black hole's margin ) and came up with a weird counterargument about multiple universes being in balance between those that have black holes and those that don't...
Most speculate already at that point how functional Hawking might have been, due to his crippling disease.
quote:the credit goes to Nazis, who invented "electric rockets", later perfected into modern ionic propulsion such as the deep space automated probe.
But the name "ion drive" was coined by Roddenbury as far as I know.
quote:he quibbled for decades with Susskind, another physicist, over the so-called "paradox of information" and his idea black holes would at one point disappear.
Actually, the theory was that both matter and information, once swallowed by a black hole was completely lost forever and therefore irretrievable. He didn't say black holes disappeared. One of the reasons he dismissed his theory was that it added to the problem of a lack of total mass to volume in the universe.
quote:multiple universes being in balance between those that have black holes and those that don't...
this was an extention of his black hole theory in which he tried to "balance everything by later saying that the information wasn't really lost into a black hole, but would reintegrate in another universe on the other side of the black hole.
quote:He didn't say black holes disappeared.
yes, I think he did.
The problem about "information disappearing" was triggered by his idea a black hole eventually disappears...IF it disappears, then information it swallowed (and became "something else" inside, quantum froth whatever )is at that point lost.
from the horse's mouth:
quote:With black holes, however, the situation is rather different. One will end up with the same state outside the hole, whatever one threw in, provided it has the same mass. Thus there is not a one to one correspondence between the initial state, and the final state outside the black hole. There will be a one to one correspondence between the initial state, and the final state both outside, and inside, the black hole. But the important point is that the emission of particles, and radiation by the black hole, will cause the hole to lose mass, and get smaller. Eventually, it seems the black hole will get down to zero mass, and will disappear altogether. What then will happen to all the objects that fell into the hole, and all the people that either jumped in, or were pushed? They can't come out again, because there isn't enough mass or energy left in the black hole, to send them out again. They may pass into another universe, but that is not something that will make any difference, to those of us prudent enough not to jump into a black hole. Even the information, about what fell into the hole, could not come out again when the hole finally disappears. Information can not be carried free, as those of you with phone bills will know. Information requires energy to carry it, and there won't be enough energy left when the black hole disappears.
http://www.hawking.org.uk/text/public/dice.html
quote:But the name "ion drive" was coined by Roddenbury as far as I know.
I have no idea.
I only learnt who pioneered the scientific method of propulsion.
Well, well,
you two guys never stop to surprise me. You certainly have a good grip on a lot of subjects. All our readers out there will have a solid educational background, when we eventually finish here at psychobabbling.
Dont worry PeopleS, next episode of The story of Elena is ready for saturday evening.
"Maybe, "anti-matter" is chaos as you describe it?"
Nope. Antimatter is structured, organised, which is the definition of cosmos. We know next to nothing (at least not from science), about the "true" chaos. Only some approximations made from what chaos there seems to exist inside cosmos. The only people really knowing what goes on outside cosmos are buddhistic monks, yogis, some very advanced shamans and those eating illegal mushrooms and such substances. Some of them being totally nuts, and some very wise. But as they generally aren't too keen on centralisation, the alpha-males (who loves it, at least when they themselves are at the top of the system) do what they can to shut them up. Why do you really think, that US authorities have tried to stop the native american church? Because a minority of native americans were in risk of being turned into drug-users. This is an ideological war, my friend. And in case anybody wonders: I'm very much in favor of LSD, Mescaline, mushrooms and cannabis being used under controlled forms. I'm equally against it being out on the streets.
The question of "balance"(/symmetry) in the universe is still an open one. It doesn't even have to be matter, which is unbalanced/asymmetric, it could also be one the forces like gravitation.
"Is this "sheepwalking"? I don't think so. I see it as simply being open to other possibilities. Maybe evrything really can be explained in a mathematical equation as yet to be formulated... maybe it can't?"
You introduced the word sheepwalking, so you have copyrights on it, also how to define it. I could use the word "beliefsystem" instead. Beliefsystems automatically supply you with a set of mental blinkers, so you don't have to bear the terrible burden of thinking for yourself.
In spite of the many various theories floating around at the quantum physicists club, it's not quite so confused, as you put it forward. The fact that we are communicating via a PC demonstrates that. A lot of the things postulated by quantum physics have been pragmatically proved. I'm not a total supporter of science, but it does have it's good points.
As long as Heisenbergs uncertainty principle is valid, nothing can be reduced exclusively to mathematical precision. The clockwork-theory of the universe died app. 50 years ago.
"It's sad to admit that the "sheepwalkers" carry weight with their blind opinions, but that IS an unfortunate part of reality as it currently exists. Again, how to change this line of thought is something I have no answer for."
If we care to do so, we have at least the possibility to change our own lives to a certain degree. Apart from joining our litlle club here and writing very convoluted theories of epistemology somewhere else, my days as a prophet are over. But I'm making some weird experiments with my own life (no drugs implied), and these experiments also change my outlook on the world. Many "important" things I simply don't care about any more.
Ham, without being sure about it, I personally believe, that black holes break down the natural laws, which were created with the Bang.
Without natural laws, no cosmos. This total entropy is what will end the universe eventually, even if the mass in it is to small to make a contraction again. There are a couple of other ways it will collapse.
But don't worry, all of you hopeful young men. You' still have time to go to UA, before doomsday.
quote:yes, I think he did.
Whatever?????? The point that I was making is that science has no answer for EVERYTHING!!!!!!!! Nit-picking over every detail of every word within a generalized statement like "Hawking later dismissed his own theory on black holes", doesn't change the meaning of what was stated, since he DID!
But I'm sure you'll find a way to say he didn't.
And the disappearance of black holes wasn't the "parodox", or the issue. The parodox was the proposed loss of information, which I clearly stated... at least I thought I had.
quote:Originally posted by PeopleSmoks
Whatever?????? The point that I was making is that science has no answer for EVERYTHING!!!!!!!! Nit-picking over evry detail of every word within a generalized statement like "Hawking later dismissed his own theory on black holes", doesn't change the meaning of what was stated, since he DID!
another PMS attack?!
Boy oh boy!
[xx(]
I don't exactly care about the issue, but [u]you</u> made a precise statement like
while mr. Hawking himself seems to say just that they disappear.
i wasn't talking about science in general and that is the only statement i referred to.
Is it true that black holes disappear? What would I know?!
Why are you getting angry at me for, is beyond me.
[:0][8D]
I have no idea what Gene Roddenberry said or wrote, so I just say so...I don't feel any less of a man for that...
quote:Why are you getting angry at me for, is beyond me.
Because nit-picking over a single sentence in a mulity paragragh post seems almost like a childish attempt to insert superiority, without making one statement concerning the topic that swede had proposed.
dearie me.
We'll get the answer to black holes in about 50 years, so it's nothing to worry so much about.
I take this meetingplace as a kind of thinktank, where ideas float freely around, and occasionally sometimes really interesting pops up, which can be incoperated in a greater whole.
[:0]
so if i understand correctly, whatever [u]you</u> write is a disinterested meaningful contribution, and what I say is off-topic nonsense to appear superior and aloof.
:D[8D]
Well, whatever floats your boat dear...
one can't make just everyone happy at all times...
Biorn Biornssonssonsson certainly didn't waste any time, before he went to visit Elena. But before we can understand, what happens between them, when they meet, a bit on Biorn's background is necessary.
He lives in the northern part of Sweden, far out in the backwoods with 15 miles to the nearest town. The town consists of a combined gas-station, videorental, grocery, garage and an outlet for the swedish boozemonopoly (you have to call 3 days in advance to order from the nearest city 50 miles away). And a few houses. Maybe even four. It's called Tomselillerod, and it can't be found on any map, no matter how small a scale. It probably couldn't be found on a map scale 1:1.
He lives in a logcabin, which could have been quite charming in a rustic way, if it wasn't that the gaps between the logs have been filled with old newspapers instead of the traditional moss, and the roof is made of rusty corrugated plate. He heats the place with a cosy woodstove, and it's really nice to be inside the cabin and feel the warmth spreading out in the room together with the thick clouds of smoke, also going into the room. The smoke could have been avoided by sweeping the chimney and using dry firewood, but Biorn is a traditionalist.
There's a duckpond next to the house, and around the cabin on all sides grow spruce and pinetrees so close, that even in the two month long summer not a single sunray can pass through. If you're into gloomy, this would be your place.
There's a rich animal life in the area, mostly mosquitos the size of wasps and wasps the size of AAA batteries. The mosquitos grow in the duckpond, and the wasps everywhere else. There's also the occasional moose, a few foxes and wolves and owls. Under the cabin lives a badger family, which has the usual temperament of badgers everywhere. That is, they on sight attack everything that moves. With the possible exception of man-eating tigers and tyranosaurus rex, a badger is the planet's most unpleasant animal. Only naturelovers and ecologists living all their life in the middle of a big city have anything positive to say about badgers. Most likely because they never have met any.
As correctly has been pointed out, Biorn is usually spelled Bjorn, and people in Sweden do not trace their genealogy three generations back, but only calling themselves "Something"sson, without the extra "ssonsson". Apart from that their father maybe was called Olav, and not "something". Biorn settled on Biorn Biornssonssonsson as sufficiently vikinglike, after having decided that Grynewulf Hammeraxhead would be too much of a good thing.
Biorn is beerbarrelshaped, which is quite fitting, as most of what is inside him usually is beer. He has an impressive beard, and it is rumoured, that a family of owls lives in the beard. This is swedish humour at its best, because it is in reality only a single swallow living there.
He has never been burdened with any deep social involvement, such as having a job for a prolonged period or joining local politics, but he used to be a businessman. He smuggled moonshine from Norway to Sweden. Considering the quality of norwegian moonshine and the price of booze in Sweden, it was a very lucrative activity and he made quite a pile before going into retirement. Never having bothered much with such minor details as reality, he believes that "them commie women", as he calls them, are ordered by the dozen and can be returned after a testrun, if it turns out, that they have too high mileage or too many former owners. So he thinks, that he can afford to keep one. At least.
Concerning women he's been that close so many times, that he considers himself something of a specialist, when it comes to the female character.
Altogether Biorn Biornssonssonsson has a surprise coming.
quote:so if i understand correctly, whatever you write is a disinterested meaningful contribution, and what I say is off-topic nonsense to appear superior and aloof.
Please show me one word of one sentence you have written in your last four postings that have anything to do with "materialism" in the cosmic context which swede brought up as a subject for discussion.
My reference to Hawking's black hole theory was merely to support my previous statement that science doesn't have all the answers and make things up as they go along only to realize it doesn't really fit "everything" as they had originally thought, and that even Steven Hawking has recanted on his own "super theory". The micro-precise details of the theory weren't the subject of the exchange.
Although I am very impressed by your apparent restraint as to have not pointed out that I mispelled 'multi' and turned that into a 1000 word dissertation on proper spelling and the functional use of the word 'multi', but then again you may have merely been distracted from that particular error as you searched your mind for that all so witty "PMS theory" you came up with. Kudos!!![8D]
Anti-matter, as I understand it to be, is an atom or particle containing negatively charged protons and positively charged electrons. Thus, the exponential release of energy when coming in contact with "normal" matter. Wouldn't something that is so contrary to "normal" existance be considered at least a part of chaos?
quote:Why do you really think, that US authorities have tried to stop the native american church?
That's a whole nother story bub! Originally because the medicine men would tell of their visions of eventually defeating "the white eye". My people were cunning fighters and when filled with the stories of the medicine men, fearless in way that would have made John Wayne soil is shorts. Eliminating the religion after finally forcing the last of the western tribes into submission was the governments way of avoiding future possible uprisings. The use of payote wasn't the focal point of the laws that were passed.
quote:The question of "balance"(/symmetry) in the universe is still an open one. It doesn't even have to be matter, which is unbalanced/asymmetric, it could also be one the forces like gravitation.
Science seems to be intent on filling the void with something they can explain using a mathematical equation. Perhaps chaos is the void itself? All that is left over when these bright minds try to add up the mass of "everything" and fall short, may be chaos itself?
quote:Beliefsystems automatically supply you with a set of mental blinkers, so you don't have to bear the terrible burden of thinking for yourself.
This depends on what you choose to believe in. Organized religions... yes, blinkers. The kind of spiritual awareness that I strive for is one that is open to "possibilities". Is there a God? I don't know... it's possible. Is there a mathematical formula yet to be realized that will explain "everything"? I give the same answer as I did about God. But I try to remain open to the "possibility", one way or the other. Am I 100% successful at keeping a completely open mind? No. But hopefully the realization of that particular shortfall will help me down the road.
quote:I'm not a total supporter of science, but it does have it's good points.
I also enjoy the luxuries that science has provided me, but still wonder what life would be like if we knew nothing of many of the things we now have??? Doing as you did and denying yourself of them isn't the same as not knowing they exist at all as you did have the option. But for me, to live as I might have only 300 or 400 years ago would be interesting.
quote:As long as Heisenbergs uncertainty principle is valid, nothing can be reduced exclusively to mathematical precision. The clockwork-theory of the universe died app. 50 years ago.
And this brings up another question about chaos. If, chaos is random and unstructured, are we not a part of chaos? Human free will involves choice. Although a choice may be made based on a set of predetermined paramiters, this is not always the case. What structure is present, or better yet, what mathematical equation could possibly account for all of the variants that are possible when it comes to the human mind? The brain can be measured and weighed, electrical impulses charted and graphed, but no mathematical equation can be formulated to figure out the human mind. Again to make an FSU/MOB tie in... Why do these girls have such a facsination with swimming pools??? Now that's chaos!!!
quote:black holes break down the natural laws... Without natural laws, no cosmos. This total entropy is what will end the universe eventually, even if the mass in it is to small to make a contraction again. There are a couple of other ways it will collapse.
But, black holes are a measureable part of the cosmos, in that their effect can be seen and measured by light distortion and gravitational affects on other objects of mass. I'm not sure if the current theory is that black holes actually lose mass, or whether they simply continue to collapse upon themselves.
My personal thoughts are that they neither lose nor gain mass, but simply convert what they "swallow" (information) into the energy that is then returned to the cosmos? It actually kind of works. What goes in must come out in one form or another. Even on a biological level, this holds true. Humans consume food and drink. They expel solid and liquid waste, AND energy. Maybe I should call Steven Hawking and have him work on a mathematical formula?
One of the problems facing science is that many believe that the actual mass of the universe is a contant and that all things are created from existing atoms. Why? I'm going to end here. My brain hurts and I need a beer!!!
Having taken swede's advice about homemade beer, only going one step further as Americans tend to do (I made a batch of corn liquor using an old family recipe... It's only been a week so it shouldn't be much more than 150 proof at this point. I hope I don't go blind before I finish this...), I now will attempt to take our new hero Biorn Biornssonssonsson. Having corresponded with that "commie woman" Elena for almost a week and a half, Biorn decides to go and fetch his woman and bring her back home to his "luxurious secluded estate". That was the how he described it in his letters.
Having packed all the essentials, including the two pairs of underwear with the least holes and least noticeable perminent "skid" marks (he only has three pairs that equate to anything more than a stretched out elastic waistband with a few shreads of fabric still attached), he began his six day trek to the city. It would have only taken most people an hour, but Biorn stopped off at the tavern in town, which is also the local gas-station, videorental, grocery and garage, when he remembered that his order for free imported hops had come in. After returning home to brew a fresh batch of beer for his trip, Biorn was once again on his way to finally meet that "commie woman" princess who would bare him lots of strong sons! Of course, we already know that Elena use to be Boris and that as fine a job as the surgeon did, that plumbing just ain't happenning!
So once again, Biorn, now equipt with a fresh jug of Sweden's finest brew and week old underwear, continues on his trek to the airport. After a quick stop in town at the combination ice cream parlor, car wash, dentists office, discoteque and pharmacy for a condom (they are washable you now...), he finally arrives at the airport.
After being detained for several hours and strip searched (no body cavity check was performed), he is finally able to satisfy the authorities as to why he is carrying a concealed sparrow in his beard and is allowed to board the plane with the swallow comfortably in her place (It turns out, she was a rare type of female swallow and nesting on her eggs). The badger however, had to be confiscated, euphonized and was later sold to a Ukrainian fur trader.
At this time, I'm beginning to think I should have mixed that corn liquor with something, or at least eaten some food today???? Thank God (sorry swede) the 'beep', 'beep' union beep strike is over 'cause I'm so 'beep'ing hammered that I can't beep myself right now! Good job boys! I'd like to take this minute to thank Barney, my personal union beep technical coordinator for the outstanding job he's done for me since this series began... Thank you Barney! Oh, and that Ukrainian prostitute you got for me last night was the best 'beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep' time I ever had!!! Thanks Barney!!!
Well, Biorn has finally arrived in Ukraine and is awaiting his transexual trollop, Elena, at the cafe. What wacky adventures will ensue? I don't know, and I don't really give a 'beep' since I'm pretty basically wasted right now and Barney just informed me that Olga, my Ukrainian prostitute from Kyiv has just arrived!
Please join us soon for the next installment of as the "As the FSU/MOB World Turns" or "Elena, why I love swimming pools"... continues. This is Don Pardo announcing...
"Anti-matter, as I understand it to be, is an atom or particle containing negatively charged protons and positively charged electrons. Thus, the exponential release of energy when coming in contact with "normal" matter. Wouldn't something that is so contrary to "normal" existance be considered at least a part of chaos?"
Sorry, still no. But TOGETHER matter and antimatter will create chaos or alternatively energy by annihilating each other.
"Eliminating the religion after finally forcing the last of the western tribes into submission was the governments way of avoiding future possible uprisings. The use of payote wasn't the focal point of the laws that were passed."
I probably expressed myself badly (I often do). But I think we agree, because what you see as a political aspect (prevention of future uprisings), I see as a cultural/ideological fight. Whoever gave some white deported criminals or religious fanatics the right to exterminate the lawful inhabitants of America? This could only be justified by telling the bandits doing it, that they "spread civilisation", representing a better ideology. Pure manipulative beliefsystem methods. Not different from the excuses Hitler and Stalin used.
Not knowing the exact legal history of US's fight against the native americans, I can't say, when the proposed ban on peyote was first suggested. But that it is an effort to stamp out one of the central religious activities in present native american community is obvious. And thereby slowly exchanging your culture with that of the shopping-mall.
"Science seems to be intent on filling the void with something they can explain using a mathematical equation. Perhaps chaos is the void itself? All that is left over when these bright minds try to add up the mass of "everything" and fall short, may be chaos itself?"
In my book chaos and void are interchangeable. Chaos is the word usually favored by science, whereas void is more religious. But it means the same: That which is not part of the ordered universe/cosmos. The original "building-stone" of cosmos was chaos, and that's what it'll revert to when the universe collapses.
"This depends on what you choose to believe in. Organized religions... yes, blinkers. The kind of spiritual awareness that I strive for is one that is open to "possibilities"."
It's just a question of words. What I call beliefsystems is simply something you BELIEVE. Often people haven't got a clue about, whether it's true or not, because alpha fe/males discourage that kind of inconvenient curiousity. Awareness on the other hand implies "knowns". So for me a personal "spiritual" or transcendent experience is closer to reality than a beliefsystem. Even SCIENCE sometimes shows signs of being a beliefsystem.
You don't even have to be a religious freak to have a "spiritual" experience. Atheists can do it also, if they are not hampered by a too strong atheist beliefsystem.
Concerning the balance between science/not science, I have chosen a middle way. I try to ask myself: "Do I really need this?", every time I'm offered some new possibility of gadgets. I like to have medicines (though sometimes "natural" such), to be comfortable, to let machines do some of the heaviest work, to have communication options undreamed of 100 years ago. But I still want to keep contact with my body, nature around me, my "essense" and generally use myself, so I don't turn into a mindless sheepwalker. And if you fill your life with junk, it will ofcourse follow the GIGO principle.
"And this brings up another question about chaos. If, chaos is random and unstructured, are we not a part of chaos? Human free will involves choice."
That's exactly my point. As to choosing swimmingpools I see it as an example of that once-in-a-lifetime choice, sheepwalkers make: "I choose not to make more choices, but from now be a good sheepwalker" With all that implies.
"But, black holes are a measureable part of the cosmos, in that their effect can be seen and measured by light distortion and gravitational affects on other objects of mass."
That's seen from the outside. What the ..beeb.. goes on inside a black hole, is as mysterious as a woman's mind. The theory, that baby-universes are born from black holes isn't so fashionable anymore.
"Maybe I should call Steven Hawking and have him work on a mathematical formula?"
Don't worry. I'm working on it. (To avoid misunderstandings from out silent readers, I think I will allow myself a small LOL here. American humour seems mostly to be about making funny faces).
"One of the problems facing science is that many believe that the actual mass of the universe is a contant and that all things are created from existing atoms. Why? I'm going to end here. My brain hurts and I need a beer!!!"
Maybe you understand, why I learned to brew my own beer. I've been working on such subjects for 40 years. By the way: Matter and energy are interchangeable, so the amount of matter/mass is not completely constant.
PeopleS, I'm really sorry to hear about your PMS problems. But let me assure you, that it will not spoil my pleasure in our exchanges. I'm used to it. My wife has it 4? weeks every month, though I'm not sure, if the P means "pre" or "post".
PS Is it really such a good idea to have THREE Olgas? I mean, when you call: "Olga, come here and adjust my cushion", you'll have all three of them at the same time, probably quarelling, nagging and being possesive. If you wish, I'll swap one Elena for one Olga.
All I can say is 'beep' you swede for making me think after the passed several hours of enjoying my great uncle John's recipie!!!
quote:TOGETHER matter and antimatter will create chaos or alternatively energy by annihilating each other.
So chaos as you would define it, only encompasses that which is unknown? Since anything that is known and NOT necessarily that which is in principle contrary to the existance of the known universe, will therefore becomes part of the known universe... But anti-matter as it exists, IS contrary to existance (as we currently understand it to be), should enough of it come into contact with supposedly equal amounts of positive matter only then would the universe acheive nothingness, except a burst of pure energy, as I can invision it to be. So wouldn't such a contrary force be considered part of chaos?
quote:In my book chaos and void are interchangeable. Chaos is the word usually favored by science, whereas void is more religious. But it means the same: That which is not part of the ordered universe/cosmos. The original "building-stone" of cosmos was chaos, and that's what it'll revert to when the universe collapses.
In things I've read, the void more or less refers to the "unkonwn" that lies between the known. Basiaclly that part of the universe which science can't measure. That being the lack of total mass to complete their mathematical equations.
quote:What the ..beeb.. goes on inside a black hole, is as mysterious as a woman's mind. The theory, that baby-universes are born from black holes isn't so fashionable anymore.
Thus my persoanl theory... Black holes convert solid matter to pure energy. This energy is then stored within the void (chaos), until the central gravitational force of the known univesre collapses upon tiself pulling chaos in with everything else. This energy once fully compressed, matter and anti-matter, is then released, and all the combined energy and everything else (matter) is blown out again, thus the whole process begins anew.
Referring to the banning of Native American religious practices, swede writes...
quote:But I think we agree, because what you see as a political aspect (prevention of future uprisings), I see as a cultural/ideological fight.
In this case, it was one in the same. Politics mandated that the "Indian uprisings" be put to rest in order to secure and further the "manifest destiny" of the United States. To do this design, it was determined that it was necessary to "break" the spirit of the people they wished to oppress. Denying the people of their religious beliefs was the course that was chosen to acheive the desired effect.
Because recorded European history, as documented in various writings dates back for so many centuries, it is often not realized in today's "civilized" world that Native American history was passed down through generations by the words of the elders to ears of the young. By eliminating the relions and therefore the culture, much has been lost. As I have no children at present, I fear that much of what I have learned will be lost to a failing memory before I can pass it on.
History is written by the victor. The vanquished can only tell their side of the story by the means available to them.
It should also be noted that the western tribes were fighting well into the late 1800s. My father is still young enough to have been told stories of the war by his grandfather had we been of a western tribe, so the wounds out there still run pretty deep in the western US! This is another reason for the lack of cultural inter-mingling there. Third world type poverty and no sign of help from the "Great White Father" don't help much either.
So much for US social programs. Illegal immigrants get more from Uncle Sam than those people do. No predjudice intended, but a Mexican can cross the border and collect social security, a mid-easterner can receive grants to open a convenience store and buy a house, but the people whose land and life were "stolen" are allowed to live in conditions that make them envious of the average underpaid Ukrainian worker.
swede, I could rant about this subject for weeks if not months, but that's not why we gather here.:)
As for my PMS problem, I took a Midol and a jug of uncle John's homemade corn liquor and feel much better. I also know about the excessively extended PMS problem facing some women. As I have had the experience of living with a woman for more than seven years, I learned to drink even more heavily than usual during certain times of the month... And yes, three Olgas is the best way to go, since you never have to worry about calling out the wrong name during the throws of passion!!!
I hope you understand, that I sympathise very much with the plight of your people, so for me it's only interesting to read your comments. The native american situation is so typical of all the predatory behaviour in human history. And risking being repetitive, I can only see a generally hightened awareness as an answer to this. Not that I have great faith in, that this will happen, but whatever little help any individual can give to make things better is valuable. If everybody leaned back and said: "Well, what can I do?" things would be worse.
But I would have an open mind for any other suggestions.
Maybe our little topic here is one of thousands of small streams leading to something. And I think our roaming around in many subjects slowly is turning into a map, where certain landmarks are clear and important.
Sorry if I spoiled a good binge for you by mindbeeb'ing you into thinking again. But it's better, you get used to it. People in FSU have demonstrated the evolutionary principle in a very special way. Those who can handle booze have outbred those who can't. I once played chess with a guy in Poland, and even after he'd drunk one pint of vodka and 8-10 pints of strong beer, he almost won (I was a decent chessplayer then). After that much I wouldn't have been able to see the chessboard.
Anyway it's 3 morning here, so I hope you'll excuse me from answering about physics today. I'll do it tomorrow.
You do have a point about having only Olgas. Never thought of it that way. Do they respond to commands as Olga 1, Olga 2 and Olga 3? Or are they simply taking 8 hours shifts, so it doesn't matter. If they are going to make their $301 a day, they would need time off.
swede, I must chuckle a bit as usual before responding to your light-hearted comments, so give me a minute to compose myself if you please.
First, the slightly more serious topic... As I often ask of folks, did you do anything against the native population of my land? No? Then don't feel bad. It's something that can only be changed from within the prevailing power structure, and since the treatment of my people, especially those still living on reservations in the west, is an embarressment to "The Greatest Nation in the World", such a change will become reality long after you and I have returned to the dust from which we came.
Absolutely nothing against the Jews, but do you think a movie like Schindler's List would have been made if the Nazis had won???
On the lighter side, no, you didn't really ruin my little binge. I'm a fully functional raging consumer of alcoholic beverages!!! I'm fully aware of my limitations, like operating a crane (which I can't do 100% sober by the way) to barroom brawling (which drunk or sober I'm what you might call a badger). For the time being, I'll leave our somewhat sexually permissive, transsexual, FSU/MOB scamming heorine's fate in your capable hands. (That's heroine with an "e" on the end, not to be confused with heroin without the "e" on the end, which, we all know by now, was the drug of choice of my skank ex-'beep, beep, beep, beep, beeeeeeeeeeeeep, beep', girlfriend, the dirty little 'beep' that she was!!!
I also play chess. I love that game! I was taught by my uncle when I was maybe 8 or 9 yo. One of my greatest joys was teaching my ex-girls oldest son to play, and the day I 'beep'ed up and he beat me. (I never let him win.) One of my greatest sorrows is that I will never be able to challenge him again. Maybe we might find an online program that will allow us to engage in a match??? I'm no Bobby Fisher, but I do well enough.
And yes, having 3 Olgas is much easier name wise, and since they are all happy with 3 square meals a day, 207 channels on cable TV, and only having to split the the cleaning and other household chores three ways, $100 a month, the occassional prada and a swimming pool seems to keep them relatively content... although, I must admit that it is a tad bit disturbing to see them all huddled around the pool shivering in their little thong bikinis in the 30 to 40 degree weather we're having here... Nice N.E.R.T.S. though!!!!
Anthony Ferrara
Well, Humm I am Interested to see the free shareing of information on this site! I have to admit that it is a breath of fresh and realistic air that all of you voice your opinion's and thought's and they also are Inteligent ones at that! Hehe, most Women I think would feel that we are as a species not this Inteligent, of course due to thier specific upbringing and culture! Well I think I will follow this site with Interest, maybe a great non painless way to Mind Meld? Hehe, No Disrespect Intended People!!!:)
I think it is long overdue that Inteligent Men have thier say in this World and I also believe it would be Genuinely Benefical for Women to visit this site and read about True Male feeling's and thought's in the Hope's they would better understand our species and try to understand the daily pressures and inconviences we are all forced to suffer, Humm, another forum maybe? Well, maybe.........
I simply see Life as a Man this way, Men are many times misunderstood simply because we are Men! We are all of course not the same, there are Flakes, Deciever's, Liar's, Manipulator's, Betrayer's, Womaniser's and so on but Truely we are not the same!! Myself I am a Gentleman and Honorable Man "No I am not bragging", this has been True my entire Life due to my upbringing which was predominantly by my Mother-our Father abandoned us when I was 10 year's old. I have to also admit Truthfully that my Mother was a Very Sweet and Attentive Mother and she was probably the fairest Person I have ever known and also she was Never Quick to Judge so I think I turned out to be a decent and fair Man,Well I think!
Well People I will be back and view more point's of interest as time passes, Hehe, I have to write My Sweet Heart in Russia a letter, She is expecting me!!:D
Take Care and stay Safe!!
"As I often ask of folks, did you do anything against the native population of my land? No? Then don't feel bad. It's something that can only be changed from within the prevailing power structure, and since the treatment of my people, especially those still living on reservations in the west, is an embarressment to "The Greatest Nation in the World", such a change will become reality long after you and I have returned to the dust from which we came."
Agreed. But the problem is, that the alpha types at the top of the powerstructures mostly survive by the passive acceptance of the brainwashed sheepwalkers. And "revolutions" usually only lead to an exchange of who is topdog, not to a change of powerstructure. That is one of the reasons, I put so much importance on awareness. Even in our, oh so advertised democratic Sweden, there also exists a group of natives, who's had a rough time same as your people. There probably doesn't exist any nation, who hasn't done this sometimes in its history.
And contrary to popular opinion, I believe that such a situation is partly responsible for the special mindset of russians. They shared the equalent of "the white man's burden" idiocy, only in their case it was the steady indoctrination, that Russia, in its role of prime propagator of communism/socialism, was something special. As with all empires, they developed a national megalomania. This megalomania manifested as arrogance and haughtiness in the average citizen, they have special "rights", they are "superior".
(And then ofcourse all slavians share some other common traits, good and bad).
As promised yesterday, I will return to physics, but instead of discussing details of a purely scientific type, I will try to put out my own interpretation. Please notice, that the following is a personal opinion, not a beliefsystem I want to spread in a missionary form.
I have for years tried to combine the "spiritual"/religious experience with science and arrived to this: In both religion and science existence originates from a state different from that of cosmos (the universe). This original state is alternatively called "the (Buddha)mind", "Brahman", "the unmanifested", "the void", "the stillness", "emptiness" or "god" by religion and "chaos" by science. Different opinions exist about the character of this state, whether it's something abstract like a "mind" (giving birth to theories that the resulting universe is a hologram or a dream) or it's a vacum, a total emptiness. (Personally I believe, that the "mind"theory is correct).
Something or someone made a change in this original state, and the result is the manifested universe(multiverse?)/cosmos. In science this event is called the big bang. I will not go into the various religious models of this change, but stick with the scientific one, because it's fairly well known to most people. The state before the big bang is in some ways in equilibrium, sometimes described as enthropy (or homogeneous). That is, seen from a matter point-of-view; if it's considered from an abstract point-of-view as a mind/mental state, maybe it's not enthropy (but it can still be in equilibrium).
I know this is a tough one, so maybe forget it and look at a more simple model. Before the big bang there was "harmony" (balance) and after ........? Science says, that the original enthropy was changed into space/time and matter/energy, with what we call "natural laws" regulating everything. This is the everyday experience, we have of the universe. But the closer we get back towards the big bang, the less manifested is space/time, matter/energy and the natural laws. In quantum physics matter/energy is f.ex. described as something almost abstract, it being a result of a kind of vibrations. So at one level the universe as we know it, doesn't really exist.
Again I will revert to ordinary language and perception and use a simplistic model. The original state (chaos) was changed into a lot of different manifestations. All with some characteristics. Matter or energy, space or time, forces like electromagnetism, gravity etc. ALL of these parts of universal existence are charged in different ways, they have different polarities (like electric plus or minus charge f.ex.) and they all attract or repel each other. From thew scientific point-of-view the attraction of differently charged parts will eventually result in a reversal to enthropy. Alternatively the natural laws will "wear down" (as strange as this may sound).
For me the aspect of attraction (alt. repulsion) is central. Differently charged parts of the universe can be completely symmetrical with each other, with the same charge, only opposite. When they meet, they can create either a symbiosis, co-existing in equilibrium or annihilate each other into a return to a zeropoint (chaos/enthropy).
OR: Oppositely charged parts of the universe can be assymetric and not meet in balance. At the microscopic level (atoms, subatoms) this is a fairly simple process, but when we get to the molecular level or above (as f.ex. biological beings) it's far more complex. Too many factors are involved to make a harmonious/balanced meeting automatic.
Thanks reader for hanging on so far. Now I'll get back to something more normal and understandable, returning to the subject of scamming, but with a small detour to symbiosis and predation. If two biological beings meet in symmetry, we have symbiosis. If they meet in assymmetry we have predation, because both parts want something. They want to find their opposite polarities, and if they are not in "harmony" (balance, symmetry, equilibrium) the stronger will absorb (eat) the weaker.
You can find examples from the individual level up to ideologies. Everybody wants something, but seldom finding the perfect opposite to create harmony with, we soon start being predators. Put in another word: We are greedy (in each our own way).
Emotional or sexual attraction are very good examples of a search for polarity. That it seldom functions as hoped for, is the origin of this forum. And to grumble about the injustice of life isn't the answer, because things are as they are. If we want any change, we must make it ourselves.
I have made suggestions as how to make such changes, but I fear, that I'm a bit too esoteric for a general communication. So maybe the phenomena of emotional and sexual attraction can be illustrative, so I suggest some deeper delving into that.
(Concerning sexual subjects we have got a new supply of authorised beebs, which everybody can feel free to use, if their posts get too juicy for publication).
By the way PeopleS. What is NERTS? Something 'beeb'y'?
Hi Tone,
thanks for your nice contribution. Hopefully we'll see more of you here.
So wellcome, and feel free to take up anything you want. I'm quite sure you will not use words like 'beeb' or even worse 'beeb' which is our only restriction here (voluntary made by all visitors sofar, we can't force anyone).
Hey swede! I only stopped home for lunch, so I don't have time to really get into your last posting other than to tell you that N.E.R.T.S. means Nipple Erection Right Through the Shirt... Or in the case of the three Olgas, through their skimpy bikini tops![:0];)[:p]:D
It is something that tends to happen to young ladies when it's a little cold out.[8D]
Why is it, that americans always have this obsession about anything connected with milk?
Being danish originally, it was almost like growing up in a dairy, and I never met anything like that.
PeopleS, stick to your family-moonshine like a man and order all the three Olgas to wear their N.C.D. (nipple camouflage devices) or you're a lost case. Milk is a terrible thing, it has led stronger men than you or me to ruin.
STAY AWAY FROM THE STUF (and anything associated with it).
In any case the Olgas will maybe be a bit warmer with their N.C.D.s on.
PS Tone, you'll get used to us with time.
quote:As with all empires, they developed a national megalomania. This megalomania manifested as arrogance and haughtiness in the average citizen, they have special "rights", they are "superior".
Sounds like you're talking about the US... it fits. As I've long said, Russians and Americans aren't that terribly different in many ways. And as you said, it spills over to the rest of the FSU in one form or another.
I don't think the women are really that different either in many ways. Maybe they're generally a step or two up on American women, but the FSU also considers scamming to be a business, and in some ways have taken it to the level of the telemarketer, with mass mailings etc.
quote:I have for years tried to combine the "spiritual"/religious experience with science... Something or someone made a change in this original state, and the result is the manifested universe(multiverse?)/cosmos. In science this event is called the big bang.
Now you sound a little like me. You see, my whole problem with trying to find the mathematical equation for "EVERYTHING" is that, how do you assign a number to what you call chaos?
My other problem is the perpetual insistance that everything came from the "Big Bang". Okay... So what caused the bang? What created all of these elements and atoms that were then thrown outward in this bang? If chaos is also refered to as nothingness, I say that no thing can come from nothing.
So basically, my personal beliefs are that somewhere down that mathematical path of science, it will all lead to what some wish to cal "Itelligent Design". I truly feel it's an unavoidable conclusion.
Of course the next logical question might be, where did this intelligence come from? Oh what a twisted road to go down!!!
Tone, welcome to the think tank. As swede has said, we generally make a solid attempt at expressing ourselves without the use of vulgarities... and no spitting on the floor!!! But as you can tell by the on going saga of our favorite little FSU/MOB, sexually permisive, transsexual scam artist, Elena (formerly known as Boris) and my three Olgas, we still like to have fun. From what you've said, you seem a bit like me in that you're making an honest search for that special girl and not out to play games. Good luck and be careful!
Today was a bit of a tragedy for the three Olgas when they learned that what they thought was another insightful American reality TV show was actually just reruns of "Green Acres" on the TV Land channel. I feel bad for the Olgas, but to be honest, I was getting pretty sick of pancakes every night for dinner. The Olgas cried for hours at the revelation, which nearly became a tragedy all it's own when their tears froze to their faces and then to each others faces as they huddled, shivering and crying by the swimming pool in their thong bikinis complete with NERTS!!! swede, I'm sure I'll get around to buying them all NCDs sooner or later???
"Now you sound a little like me. You see, my whole problem with trying to find the mathematical equation for "EVERYTHING" is that, how do you assign a number to what you call chaos?"
You can only find equations inside cosmos. In chaos it's completely different; f.ex. natural laws as we know them don't exist, and there's no matter or anything. The only way to experience chaos is to go there and look for yourself. According to my own experiences and to other more heavy chaos-journeying dudes (the mystics), the "mind"theory seems to be the most likely. It means, that to experience chaos, you have to change yourself, so you can experience this "mind"state.
I have some good news for you, so you don't have to worry about using illegal drugs or spend 15 years in a cave alone.
Tantric sex is a 'beeb' of a good method for finding reality (that's how I see chaos). The only problem is, that you must find a partner, who's able to join with you in this process. I dooooon't think, that UA dreamingladies abound in such.
"Okay... So what caused the bang?"
Last time I answered this question, you thought I was a scientific wimp, because I said, I believe in the theory of intelligent design. So this time I will say, that I believe that some "higher power" did it. It means the same. Call it god, if it's more your line. I'm still not sufficiently advanced to have met this gentle(wo)man, and considering the quality of his handiwork (the universe), I'm not quite sure, I want to either.
"I say that no thing can come from nothing."
Sure it can. 0= + 1 + (- 1). Ex.: You haven't got a dime. You go to the bank and borrow 2 grand. Now you have two grand in your pocket and two grand in debt (though you still own zero). In certain circumstances two opposite charged and equally strong particles can be created from "nothing". Actually this theory about something from nothing was suggested in 1973 by a physicist called Ed Tryon. I arrived at it in a different way, than he did, which only makes it more acceptable to me.
"Of course the next logical question might be, where did this intelligence come from? Oh what a twisted road to go down!!!"
If there's no natural laws, no time, space, matter or energy causality (cause and effect) breaks down. As I've written before, such a state would look like "magic" or supernatural to us. If there's no need for causality, questions about causality are meaningless. Such situations are outside our scope to percieve/imagine. We can only think of it in intellectual terms.
After a few beers, it'll be clear as....as beer to you.
Poor little Olgas.
I believe you can get NCD's at a fundamentalist muslim shop. Look in the corner, where they have all the other woman camouflage equipment.
Hey swede! I'm going to take this a bit out of order although not quite entering chaos.
quote:Sure it can. 0= + 1 + (- 1).
In away, you have helped to make my point. You still have 0... nothing. When all is said and done, nothing is what it is. You can interchange infinite positive and negative numbers, but the end result will always be zero.
Since the known universe is made up of far more atoms with positively charged protons, than anti-matter with it's negatively charged protons, balance is lost and zero, or nothing no longer remains a viable starting point in the equation.
Again, this is why I believe that there is "something" more behind the creation of the universe than what can be explained by science. And so I also ask, where did chaos come from? If the origine of the universe is from chaos, what created chaos? Again I look to my spiritual beliefs. As you say, call it what you will, but as I think about what you have proposed, I now wonder about the origin of chaos itself???
I have dicussed the NERTS situation with the three Olgas, and they have collectively decided that they wish to keep their NERTS in tact. I see no choice but to sub come to their wishes, as there was a reference made to "Black Power", Malcolm X and giving Al Sharpton a call??? I really need to find out what the 'beep' these girls are watching on TV when I'm at work aside from classic "Green Acres" reruns...
"In away, you have helped to make my point. You still have 0... nothing. When all is said and done, nothing is what it is. You can interchange infinite positive and negative numbers, but the end result will always be zero."
Yes. In this case the zero is the startingpoint, chaos. The various positive and negative numbers are what is manifested in the universe as all its different charged parts. Remember that the example with plus and minus one was a simple one.
In the universe there exist several sets of opposite charged parts. There can even be three differently charged parts as a result of zero being split up. Think of a three-dimensional coordinatesystem.
"Since the known universe is made up of far more atoms with positively charged protons, than anti-matter with it's negatively charged protons, balance is lost and zero, or nothing no longer remains a viable starting point in the equation."
As you mention protons as your example, I will use this, and stick to the electrical charge. For an antimatter proton there exists a more immediate opposite: The antimatter electron, which will give an electric zero with the proton. So the
zero idea still holds.
But my main reason for believing in a creating power is, that although the zero-point idea is almost 100% correct, someone (the creator) messed a little bit with it from the start. Had the universe been completely symmetrical, it would have collapsed on itself a few zillionparts of a second after the banging. One of the current theories is, that gravity is not, what it should be. Some part of it has been put "elsewhere", so the original zero-point of origin still holds. But this is just speculations sofar.
"If the origine of the universe is from chaos, what created chaos?"
As I said in my last post, it is not possible to use models as effect/cause in chaos. Time does not exist, neither does matter, energy or space. So in chaos there can be no before or after, no cause or effect, as we know these principles from inside the universe. It is quite possible, that chaos has its own inner system for functioning, but it will be so strange, that it will be impossible for us to understand it with our normal consciousness.
Isn't it just typical of FSUW to react this way. Being obstinate, threatening and hostile. In spite of the fact, that all three will be dead from pneumonia in less than a year. Try Tanyas next time, it's my impression, that they are more agreeable.
Have you noticed, that a new type of commercials are turning up at the top of this topic. Books about evolutiontheory and today something about "Origin of the universe".
I have on another track today made some nasty comments as an answer to a suggestion of how to make the world a better place by returning to socialism/communism. And I feel that psychobabbling is the proper place to explain my motives.
It is not so, that I have any wish to start an ideological fight. It's all the same to me, if people believe in this or that. What I object to, are the consequences of any power-centralised ideology being in charge.
What I have suggested here earlier can ofcourse also be counted as an ideology, and by some be considered as valueless. But my point is, that I do not refer to any holy book (be it religious or political); I have all the time advocated a personal, open approach, with room for doubt and criticism and stressing the individual responsibility.
And even that is not my main point. What made me so hostile elsewhere is the fact, that should this proposed miracle cure for human failings take over, I (and a lot of other people) would very quick be put at a "rehabilitation camp" at gunpoint, so I could learn the error of my ways. Something MY ideas hardly would lead to, if they by some chance became popular.
I strongly protest against even considering the idea, that anybody should have the right to mess with my life or my mind, as long as I don't harm anybody else and follow the general (somewhat democratic) rules in my culture.
To my knowledge all experiments in socialism/communism have ended up at best as practical fiascos and at worst as totalitarian nightmares.
That McCarthy did almost the same in US 50 years ago, and the christian church all over Europe in the middle ages does not justify any socialist"revolution" leading to the same result only with a new name. This is not a question of "if you're not with us, you're against us". It's a question of letting any person, who wants so, having the right to decide about his/her private life. Define this as an extreme leftist or rightist philosophy, if you like (both are possible).
Because monopol-capitalism is a dysfunctional system, it doesn't make socialism the more correct.
As Ham once remarked: "Ofcourse all for your own good", when we discussed predatory behaviour. Anybody suggesting an ideology leading to results of this kind, I will consider either so dumb as to be pitied, or someone climbing shoulders to get higher in the local alpha-male power hierachy.
I'm willing to take a discussion here, should anybody have examples of FUNCTIONAL power-centralised ideologies manifested in life. Small or big.
quote:For an antimatter proton there exists a more immediate opposite: The antimatter electron, which will give an electric zero with the proton. So the
This might hold true were all the atoms in the known universe Hydrogen atoms, but the simple one proton (positive, or in the case of anti-matter, negative) to one electron (negative, or again for anti-matter, positive) comes unravled as soon as you get to Helium. One proton and two electrons. Either way, the balance is lost, unless someone can find sufficient anti-matter mass to offset the already know mass of positively charged matter in th universe.
quote:As I said in my last post, it is not possible to use models as effect/cause in chaos. Time does not exist, neither does matter, energy or space. So in chaos there can be no before or after, no cause or effect, as we know these principles from inside the universe. It is quite possible, that chaos has its own inner system for functioning, but it will be so strange, that it will be impossible for us to understand it with our normal consciousness.
The problem I have with this, is that it is a theory that has no solid basis to prove or disprove. You may get 'beep'ed at me for saying this, but prove or disprove God. Basically what you describe is the complete opposite of what God, the Great Spirit, or pretty much any other "supreme being" would represent, in that such a being would be all parts of matter, energy, time, space, and dimension, all at the same time. Neither can be proven nor disproven and thus the forever theologicl debate over "God's" existence.
Regarding communism/socialism... I have made comments before stating my views on this touchy subject. Communism/socialism in it's truest, purest form as prescribed by Lenin, is total harmony and social perfection. Two problems exist. 1) ALL MUST CHOOSE TO BE A PART OF THIS TYPE OF SOCIAL ORDER FOR IT TO FUNCTION. 2) It is the nature of man to seek to improve himself, often this means finances, and personal finances don't work in a communist structure, thus what we saw in the old USSR.
quote:Isn't it just typical of FSUW to react this way. Being obstinate, threatening and hostile. In spite of the fact, that all three will be dead from pneumonia in less than a year. Try Tanyas next time, it's my impression, that they are more agreeable.
Well swede, as we all know, slavic women are a hearty lot and quite adept at enduring the cold, especially when gazing into the shimmering blue waters of a swimming pool although the shimmer comes from a layer of ice). They seem to acheive an almost Transendental state... it's spooky!
Today was apparently one to take note of. My butler Alfred (his real name is Frank, but I call him Alfred because of the Batman thing I have going on...),told me he observed the three Olgas watching lesbian porn on pay-per-view. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm???
I believe, it would take much more than this, for me to be 'beeb'ed' with you. You are not intruding in my life or threatening me in any way. That we don't agree on everything isn't a problem, it's just great to exchange opinions with you.
" The problem I have with this, is that it is a theory that has no solid basis to prove or disprove. You may get 'beep'ed at me for saying this, but prove or disprove God. Basically what you describe is the complete opposite of what God, the Great Spirit, or pretty much any other "supreme being" would represent, in that such a being would be all parts of matter, energy, time, space, and dimension, all at the same time. Neither can be proven nor disproven and thus the forever theologicl debate over "God's" existence."
You're right, it's not possible to prove or disprove a supreme being on the basis of my theory. That is "prove" or "disprove" in the traditional sense. A completely different epistemology is needed.
I'm not quite sure, if I got the meaning of the second part of it. Starting with: "Basically......etc".
My interpretation is that "god" (or maybe "mind") is all the parts of the universe put back together in harmony. Is this what we agree or disagree on?
In any case, what kind of evidence would you normally accept to accept proof of anything? Because there exist different ways of "proving" things, depending on what parameters you choose to use for proof.
I'm fairly sure, that helium has two protons, but I'll have to find the information somewhere, before I can be definite.
Concerning socialism/communism I believe, I'm not too far from your opinion (apart from that I would like to own my own home, clothes, vehicle and other personal items, plus having the chance to run a small private enterprise by myself).The theory is OK, but so is christian love, and ideas of total freedom. But to make an ideology functional, it must take human nature into consideration. Otherwise it's wishthinking and you will need to brainwash people to make them fit the system, instead of the system fitting people.
In any case my objections to socialism is mostly based on the pragmatic results it has shown, when it has been practised.
As you maybe remember, I am myself positive to anarchy, but I do not propagate for it, because I know, it's unrealistic to think it would function.
You know more about politics, than I do. Does the original communism or socialism allow for political competition?
I would be doubtful about accepting a one-party system.
Goddiejens
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,druck-534781,00.html
This happens more and more in Germany. 99% of suicides after separation/divorce is done by men!
Now I want to do some remarks about sextourism. There are also feminine sextourists. You can watch them in Morocco or Egypt, older European ladies enjoying to have an affair with a youngster from Morocco or Egypt ... I have no problems with it!
I have only problems with pedofiles and pimps.
And I stick to my political basic position that there had not been prostitution with pimps and children prostitution and children pornography and all these mafia and dirty business structures in the ex socialist countries in Europe. That's why only a real socialist society terminates with the product sex, the paid service sex. As long as profit and making money by exploting other people is the central issue of our society and we accept this ... all measures against aids or abuse of children and women and youngsters and whoever is only a little bit cosmetics to make it look a bit better and a bit "democratic" and a bit "human" or whatever.
First I must emphasize that I never consciously have used a prostitute's services, and probably never will. I'm telling this to demonstrate, that I have no personal, sexual advantages from the existence of prostitution. So I agree with Jens' STARTING point, that the mainproblem is about pedophily and organised, criminal prostitution, where the girls are misused in some ways.
But to suggest, that a totalitarian system like socialism/communism should be the answer to that problem is preposterous. As far as I know, prostitution was forbidden in FSU. That is, prostitution for the common person. Those in the upper echelon certainly didn't abstain from using the possibility.
Let me tell you a little story: When I was a child, my father owned a very big, and internationally famous furrier's shop. We are talking about furcoats, which would cost up to a couple of hundred grand ($) in today's money. At first his customer's were the typical american millionaires with their status-seeking wives. As american authorities later put prohibitive import taxes on such luxury items, this market suddenly disappeared, and my father believed, that this was the end of it. But no, a new type of customers turned up. The topdogs from Sovjet, with their young bimbos, started buying these stinking expensive coats.
This shows two things. First that the alpha-males of Sovjet economically misused their position just as much as alpha-males do everywhere (no matter what power structure their are in). What the 'beeb' is this kind of behaviour? In a situation where ordinary people lived miserable lives, some sociopaths could spend enormous amounts of money on FURCOATS (my father had 80 employed, so we're talking about a lot of coats to keep this going).
(A small digression. I distance myself from killing other animals for the use of their fur).
Secondly it shows the through and through hypocricy existing in Sovjet. Two different set of rules existed. One for the common wo/man and one for the alphas. There's no need for a private maffia in such a system. The political bosses nicely filled out that niche.
That was a firsthand information; the next is something I personally can't verify, and possibly could be propanganda. As far as I know, Mao was known to have a preference for quite young girls. If that is true, where's the truth in the clich?s we get about the perfection about communism? The alpha male is allowed habits, which are officially condemned.
I know, you have covered your back by saying (Cit.): "That's why only a real socialist society terminates with the product sex, the paid service sex."
As you may remember, I earlier asked for examples of FUNCTIONAL communist/socialist systems. So what IS a "REAL" socialist society?
You start with saying (cit.): " .....older European ladies enjoying to have an affair with a youngster from Morocco or Egypt ... I have no problems with it!" You have no problems with it, fine with me (or maybe this is only acceptable for woman buying sex, and not men). But later you propose that only real socialist societies terminates with the "paid service sex".
How do you want it? You have no problems with it,....or..... real socialist societies terminate it. You can't have both!
As I see it, you're just being demagogic, both confusing your own issues and sneaking in less defendable points by equalising (cit.): "all measures against aids or abuse of children and women and youngsters and whoever ......." with "...the paid service sex". That almost everybody would agree to stop aids and abuse of other people goes without saying, but adding the subject of prostitution into this by "the backdoor" won't go home here. You are not home in your local socialist-cell, where that kind of oratory tricks will be accepted without comment.
In general my personal opinion about people recommending totalitarian ideologies is, that such people do it because their own lives are so small, miserable and empty that they only can find satisfaction from trying to give "good advices" (often at gunpoint) to others, who usually are happier or wiser, than they are themselves. And ofcourse ALWAYS ...."for our own good".... It's nothing but a manifestation of a power-trip, and I do not need any "big brother" in my life.
I do not have any special political ideology; I have and will vote (as long as voting is an option) according to the actual situation. I vote after my conscience and whatever common sense I have. I do not see socialism/communism exclusively as the work of the devil; there were some redeeming aspects of it when it manifested in realpolitics (and the fundamental ideology is OK, albeit completely out of touch with the reality of human nature).
So skip the thirdrate propaganda clich?s and put out some tangibles like a theory of "real" socialism or pragmatic examples of socialist societies, where the system functions. Such I can respect and will answer to without showing PMS symptoms (sorry PeopleS, you're obviously not the only one).
if you can for the duration accept the term "intelligent design", maybe this site will give some information. I find the subject too big to present here.
I haven't had the time to read it through properly, but as far as I can see, the scientific arguments seem reasonably acceptable. Whereas the religious implications are less well proven. The guy who manages the site is obviously unaware of other religions attitude in this connection, and he gets somewhat fundamentalistic about his own version of christianity as THE answer.
But that's unfortunately typical of all fundamentalists. Some of them even dish out all of their own "selling" pamphlets, expecting everybody to read the stuff, but refuse or are forbidden to read other points-of-wiev themselves.
"We're right, and you are wrong" kind of thing.
The site is called "cosmicfingerprints" and then go to: New scientific evidence for the existence of god.
When I get time, I will read it more carefully.
quote:I'm fairly sure, that helium has two protons, but I'll have to find the information somewhere, before I can be definite.
No, you're right and I stand corrected regarding Helium, but I still wonder about balance within chaos, to remain at nothing since we are yet to find balance between matter and anti-matter???
quote:(apart from that I would like to own my own home, clothes, vehicle and other personal items, plus having the chance to run a small private enterprise by myself)
...And this is WHY communism/socialism simply does not work. ALL MUST SUBCRIBE TO IT!!! From those who are the "leaders", to those who follow. In fact, in true communism, there are no leaders or followers. Everyone is 100% equal. Now, reality steps in. It would take another evolutionary change within mankind to "allow" such thought to take place. This is the ultimate in symbiosis... for every single person in existance to completely rely on each other for equal shares of the entire pie and to feel no desire or need for more. Our world is currently based on wanting more of everything.
Communism removes personal goals and acheivements from people's lives. Everything is done for the good of the people, and absolutely NO personal gain is to be sought. More money, more power, a nicer car, gone??? It can never happen so long as there is even ONE dissenter in the population.
Although it may not be what Lenin had invisioned, a "hippie" commune of the sixties is probably the closest thing we have ever seen to true communism. They grew their own food, even raising livestock. Some worked jobs, but the money earned was used to buy necessities for the community. Everything was shared... food, chores, drugs, the classic Volkswagon bus, and yes, even sex. Everyone was there because they WANTED to be there. Still, there were those who emerged as leaders and in ways took advantage of this as is "natural" for humans to do.
quote:Does the original communism or socialism allow for political competition?
Communism is not meant to be a political thing. Politics only entered the fray as it is politics that rules. In order to make change, you have to play the game by the rules set by the ones making the rules. Thus the birth of the Communist Party. The involvement of politics was the first corruption of the ideal as this infers a power structure, contrary to true communism.
Hey Jens! Welcome back to the thread.
quote:This happens more and more in Germany. 99% of suicides after separation/divorce is done by men!
It's sad to read that. I don't know German culture, but in the US, MEN DON'T CRY!!! We keep it inside until... BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE!!! I'm surprised that article isn't about US men.
Socialism isn't the answer to your next statement, without the mental evolutionary change required to make it viable. It has often been said that prostitution is the worlds oldest profession. I can only attribute this to the male desire to have sex, as far back as the days of the caveman. Somewhere along the way, a woman realized that she could receive favors for freely allowing a man to have her, whether it was a bigger chunk of the days kill, or maybe not having to do other work as a part of the common community.
Pimps, organized crime, etc, only entered the equation because someone figured out a way to make money from it without being the one getting 'beep'ed. The motivation behind pedifiles is a whole different topic on depravity. Prostitution is illegal in 99% of the US, but drive down the main street of most major cities here on a Friday night and you'll find prostitutes curb to curb.
quote:The site is called "cosmicfingerprints" and then go to: New scientific evidence for the existence of god.
I'll have to check it out. Thanks!
Today has been a good day for the three Olgas, but not so much for me. After sitting them down and explaining to them about the "Green Acres" reruns and what "Black Power" actually means, they have found a new meaning to their lives, although not quite what I would have hoped. Since it was raining all day today, and not wanting to huddle by the pool only to have their make-up run, they asked Alfred to drive them around to kill time. During their travels, they found... a shopping mall!!!!
All I can say is 'beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep, beep' Alfred, 'beep, beep, beep, beep' stupid, 'beep, beep, beep, beep'... The union has just informed me that I have used up my daily quota of beeps and that any further beeps used will be recycled beeps and they are not to be held resposible for the out come. With that, I bid you a goodnight... To be continued when I can get some fresh beeps, because I'm not done with my tirade yet!!!!
"........... but I still wonder about balance within chaos, to remain at nothing since we are yet to find balance between matter and anti-matter???"
According to the only map we have at the present, the experiences of people who've actually "been there" (the mystics, who are ofcourse not accepted as fair witnesses by science, because science's parameters don't include this kind of thing), it's not really a zero-state (as f.ex. a total vacum), but rather a kind of stillness. But with the absense of anything known to us from our ordinary life, it would look like emptiness, until we get attuned to it.
In my youth I made a study of trans-religious, -cultural and -historical mystic (transcendental, non-mundane, chaos) experiences, and it turned out, that they were very alike independant of background. It's a "map", I trust to a high degree. The mainparts of this state of being are mostly a kind of detachment from ordinary life-values (but only in a positive sense. The ethical aspect grows bigger, if anything), compassion, what we here formerly have called "wisdom", bliss (which surpasses any normal feeling of happiness) and not least compassion. I have on and off experienced such states of being myself; one time for three weeks uninterrupted. But I do not have a complete control of the process leading there yet.
Now I hope, that readers of this will not take the above as any mission on my part. I can understand, if you will be sceptical and think it all stuff and nonsense. I'm absolutely not going to start a quarrel with anybody about this subject, as long as I'm left in peace with my private "delusions".
"In fact, in true communism, there are no leaders or followers. Everyone is 100% equal. Now, reality steps in. It would take another evolutionary change within mankind to "allow" such thought to take place. This is the ultimate in symbiosis... for every single person in existance to completely rely on each other for equal shares of the entire pie and to feel no desire or need for more. Our world is currently based on wanting more of everything."
I warmly join in this description, and much of the discussion here on my part have been to explore such possibilities. To my knowledge, socialism/communism split early between the anarchists and the centralised-oriented power structure (as demonstrated by Stalin and later alphas). Where my sympathies lie are no secret.
"Although it may not be what Lenin had invisioned, a "hippie" commune of the sixties is probably the closest thing we have ever seen to true communism."
Sad to say, I tried that partly (and saw examples of more extreme experiments), and there was always that guy or two, who just ruined everything by not taking their share, but generally only parasited on the rest.
While I possibly could give up any pretentions for ownership of material things, I have at the present problems imagining myself sharing a woman with a lot of other people. Not saying it couldn't be done, but it would take quite a lot.
Never got around to the Spiegel link, but I've worked for app. 20 years with people having various mental disorder problems. And the men outnumbers the women four to one
quote:According to the only map we have at the present, the experiences of people who've actually "been there" (the mystics, who are ofcourse not accepted as fair witnesses by science, because science's parameters don't include this kind of thing), it's not really a zero-state (as f.ex. a total vacum), but rather a kind of stillness. But with the absense of anything known to us from our ordinary life, it would look like emptiness, until we get attuned to it.
I understand what you are inferring, but there are still some gaps that even my somewhat open mind fails to grasp. This certainly is an effect of some of the "programming" that we discussed in prior topics. I truly belive that what is experienced by such "mystics" has a lot to do with their already "programmed" beliefs... Similar to near death experiences.
It has been said that "God" (pardon me swede), appears to each of us in a form that each can comprehend, as not to cause our heads to explode. Your general concept of the existance of what you call chaos, isn't so unreasonable, but as a "spiritualist", I tend to see the reasons for things not adding up, to be something other than nothingness.
quote:To my knowledge, socialism/communism split early between the anarchists and the centralised-oriented power structure (as demonstrated by Stalin and later alphas).
BINGO!!! Exactly why communism doesn't work. Too many sheepwalkers. They NEED a preditor to guide them, thus the basics of equality are lost, not everyone is equal, someone has influence over others, and the whole thing comes unravled! And let's face it, there are plenty of preditors out there to fill the role of dictator guiding the sheepwalkers.
quote:Sad to say, I tried that partly (and saw examples of more extreme experiments), and there was always that guy or two, who just ruined everything by not taking their share, but generally only parasited on the rest.
The parasites are just as bad. Those who choose to profit through being shiftless and lazy are the polar opposites of the preditors we normally think of, but are in fact, preditors themselves. They feed off the weak who are unwilling or unable to force a change.
Sharing my girl is out of the 'beep'ing question!!!!
"I truly belive that what is experienced by such "mystics" has a lot to do with their already "programmed" beliefs... Similar to near death experiences."
This is true, and you'll find varying degrees of beliefsystems carried over into the mystic experience. But then again there are certain aspects, which are general in spite of the beliefsystems represented. Apart from those mentioned, white light is common. Timelessness is another, as known f.ex. both from asian and western mysticism and from aboriginals in Australia. And you couldn't find beliefsystems/"programs" further apart.
The interesting thing is, that science says, that time would be non-existing in chaos. And white light is a reversal of the quantum-leap process, which produces the 6 standard colours of the hydrogen spectrum. Translated: The colours we see, are symbiotically reunited to white light. This is not symbolic" but an actual expression of a scientific phenomenon.
A very, very interesting presentation of how beliefsystems and the concept of god are experienced in paranormal states has been done by Robert A. Monroe. He's FAR from being a mystic, but actually a successful, american businessman, who (AFTER he got rich) started telling about his out-of-body journeys, and who also developed a sound system helping to acchieve this process. He's a guy I really respect, being rational and undogmatic, with no religious messages to sell.
"They NEED a preditor to guide them"
That's why I stress the individual approach so much. Both at ideology level and as a base for working personally towards awareness. Waiting for a collective awareness would take eternities. But some individuals have a strong (sleeping)potentiality for awareness, which only needs a little inspiration to get started. If you live in a society, which frowns upon such things, as we talk about here (how are the voices in your head by the way?), it's not easy to get started.
"The parasites are just as bad. Those who choose to profit through being shiftless and lazy are the polar opposites of the preditors we normally think of, but are in fact, preditors themselves. They feed off the weak who are unwilling or unable to force a change."
They were like lice in the good old days in the sixties. Everywhere and difficult to get rid of. On a few occasions I had to get legal- or policehelp to get them out of my small house, where they made some squatter-like invasion under the device, that "property is theft". I played the role as the cigarsmoking, fat capitalist, because I actually had a JOB. As a substitute mailman.
Cit 13/2:
"Everything was shared... food, chores, drugs, the classic Volkswagon bus, and yes, even sex."
"Sharing my girl is out of the 'beep'ing question!!!!"
At first I believed, that your post from the 13'th was an expression of your own ideals, but todays post makes it clear, that it isn't.
I can occasionally loan my car to friends, but never my bike or my woman.
Greetings from Elena (I've forgotten which one, but it doesn't matter) to 1, 2 and 3.
Today was an interesting day here in the house of Olgas. Alfred has completed his installation of the brass pole in the boudoir, and the Olgas have now become torn. During commercial breaks while still watching "Green Acres" reruns on TV Land, even though they know it is not a reality program, they spent the day scurrying back and forth from the swimming pool to the newest shiny object to catch their eyes, the brass pole in the boudoir.
It's night here on the east coast of the states and the bulb has blown on the pool light. Alfred is off for the night, and I'll be darned if I'll lower myself to changing light bulbs! So, being deathly afraid that some guy named Boris will have tracked them down and would beat them unmercilously in the dark, the Olgas remain indoors this evening, shining their new toy in ways that the union has informed me they lack a sufficient stock pile of beeps for me to effectively describe on this page.
So with that, I bid you a fond good evening!
quote:white light is common.
Again, this is a common thing that is very basic to many different "out of body" experiences... and dare I say it... alien abductions. But basically, it almost seems to me that within your personal beliefsystem, you are trying very hard to find an answer, any answer that doesn't directly involve some form of God or spirit as the starting point of our existence.
Religion isn't a dirty word or concept in and of itself, and neither is the word God. It's no different than atomic reaction... very beneficial when used as directed. But when misused, it is a very big problem. Religion is basically a beliefsystem and nothing more. You yourself have a religion of sorts.
Yes, maybe you, or science will prove me wrong someday, but I honestly believe that there are some things that mortal man, whether wide awake or in a dreamstate, simply are not meant to know until they pass beyond their mortal being and join that which has eluded them for their lifetime.
quote:"Everything was shared... food, chores, drugs, the classic Volkswagon bus, and yes, even sex."
This is a reference to a general openness. There were also many monogamous relationships. The woman would have to be willing to "share" herself, and as a man, if you did not want this, simply don't tie yourself to a woman who was a "sharer". Like you, I would find a monogamous girl, since I don't share my toys well with others. Especially that particular toy!!!!!!!:(
Tell Elena the Olgas say, "Privetik!"
I see the concept of serials is becoming increasingly popular here.
Now we only need a talk-show and a quizz-game.
Maybe we should talk a little about scamming now and then also, say mondays and fridays.
Hehehe, Ditto Swede!! Maybe I have missed something but what is it all about regarding the Olga's? [?]
Well, as I have said many times is my Life, do not Shoot me-Enlighten me! Hehehe
Tone [8D]
On another track PeopleS boasted about having 3 Olgas living together with him. And he's terribly possesive about them; and in my opinion he lets them have far too much freedom.
swede, you do know the difference between bull'beep', millionaire playboy, tights at night wearing and reality don't you????
And as far as "letting" any girl have too much freedom is concerned, my ONLY restriction or demand that I place on my girl is that she not 'beep' other guys and stay away from drugs. That's reality my friend.
I'm quite sure, that brass lingams don't come cheap. You're plain spoiling them.
But it's probably too late now, and you'll have no end of problems in the future.
Next episode of Elena's story will be published tomorrow. The entire staff at the studio suffers from a mild hangover today.
As I have not yet read any pertinent response to my post from Feb 14 2008 : 18:04:41, and presently being a bit bored as I messed up my knee and am laid up this weekend, all I have left is another three Olgas update...
It's a tad dreary here at "Stately Smoks Manor". No rain, but plenty of clouds and no sunshine. The Olgas found the emergency flare gun in my 55 foot dingy which is docked next to the 1:1 scale replica of the Queen Elizabeth that I had commissioned and built a few years ago.
They were firing off flares in an attempt to "create" the effect of a sunny day, which I might have considered to be quite creative had they not set the boat house ablaze. Fortunately, all US Naval personell are trained in firefighting, and my security force of 20 former US Navy SEALs was able to quickly subdue the flames.
As punishment, I have told the Olgas they are to write "I will not play with flare guns" 100 times on the blackboard, and no "Green Acres" reruns for the rest of the weekend. I would have simply spanked them as I did once before, but they only scream, "Ooooo, yes daddy, harder harder, I've been a very bad little malyshka!", seem to enjoy it too much and keep getting back in line???
As for your concerns that I spoil them, the pole only cost $120, so when you split that three ways, it really isn't that big of an expense, considering the joy it brings to their shining little faces.
Hopefully, we will soon return to the more mentally challenging topics with deeper meaning as I have come to miss having to take more than three minutes to express my thoughts and type a posting.
The story of Elena:
Biorn is now in UA to meet Elena. For a while at the passportcontrol it looked like he wasn't going to make it, because some official insisted, that Biorn's visa was invalid from being issued as long time ago as three days, and that he would have to pay for another one. And some other official tried to press him to buy a travel insurance, which he didn't need, because he already has one.
Biorn is now sitting in a bar, waiting for Elena to arrive. He has, compared to his usual standard, dressed himself up. He's wearing a combination of the two most agressive hues of blue and yellow, it is possible to find in the sartorial world. He has done so, because these are the swedish colours, and he wants the world to know, where he comes from. The problem is, that while this blend of colours is quite acceptable on a flag, it was never meant to be used for clothes. Besides, blue and yellow are the symbols for the two biggest political parties in UA, two parties which sad to say don't love each other as much as they could. Especially around electiontimes, a big part of the communication between them is done with stones (or other available missiles), clubs and burning of cars. So wearing blue and yellow together is asking for trouble. Ukranians are very serious about politics.
Biorn has also cut a foot off his beard, though leaving so much of it, that it merciful hides the nude woman embroidered on his tie. (The amputed part of the beard has been used to make a nest for the bird usually living in it. A neighbour of Biorn is taking care of it).
Elena on the other hand is tastefully, if sparsely, dressed, when she arrives. She, and her silicone reinforced body, seems to be one big invitation to forbidden sins. So much, that even the hardened local men give her an extra look.
Together Biorn and Elena is a striking couple and all the other guests at the bar stare at them in horrified fascination. The older generation has ofcourse heard interminable stories about the decadent west, and now looking at Biorn, they for the first time in their lives start to wonder, if the stories maybe weren't true. Nobody can dress this way and not be decadent.
Elena has ofcourse met contrybumpkins before, but they have mostly been of american breed. Dancing around her, never asking about the price of her whims, opening cardoors, taking her to poshy restaurants and in general being wimps. But Biorn is very different. He sits there in his abominable suit, with his beerbarrelbody and his beard, and looks as if everything is honky dory. His total lack of contact with the current version of social reality has made him an innocent.
But in spite of Biorn's obvious shortcomings, Elena is a little impressed, both because she herself is a complete victim of socially accepted appearances, being unable to go against fashion, and also because the professional in her understands, that this will not be a routine assignment. After several periods filled with ultimate boredom from american men, all suffering from Oedipus complexes in various degrees, she will now meet a challenge, worthy her talents.
Biorn on his part is quite sure, that he will almost make it with Elena. Almost making it being as far as his imagination streches, based on former experience.
"Hopefully, we will soon return to the more mentally challenging topics with deeper meaning as I have come to miss having to take more than three minutes to express my thoughts and type a posting."
I'm very happy to hear, that your brain doesn't overheat, when we have lengthy exchanges of a deeper type.
Maybe I will be a bit less mentally stale tomorrow, and sending you some pertinence. But already now I can say, that I am not so far from you in my basics of existence. It's only, that I want knowns instead of beliefs.
Some of my knowns include existence of higher powers, small grey ETs,
and most incredible, the existence of a few honest FSUW, possible even on cyberdating. But this last possibilty is the lowest ranking amongst these examples.
As I have mentioned before, the subject of the psychology of sexual and emotional attraction (finding polarities?) could maybe be of interest.
I have also another idea. It seems, that newcomers, unfamiliar with scamming, turns up regularly. Maybe a kind of very general summing up of facts/and wellbased speculations would be a help. We could update it once a month. In a few days I will start making a sketch for this, where everything will be in one place. But there's a lot of things I don't know, mostly about the technical aspects and procedures.
quote:I have also another idea. It seems, that newcomers, unfamiliar with scamming, turns up regularly. Maybe a kind of very general summing up of facts/and wellbased speculations would be a help. We could update it once a month. In a few days I will start making a sketch for this, where everything will be in one place. But there's a lot of things I don't know, mostly about the technical aspects and procedures.
Personally, I would welcome such a discussion as to initiate some new blood and a fresh perspective here. Openning a more directly scammer related discussion would give interest to the new comers, before we bore them with our run-on sentences and deeper meanings to the issue.
As long the general rules of no spitting on the floor (we in the civilized world use a spitune), and refraining from the use of four letter expletives to make a point, all are welcome to present their views and give their input.
We all look for someone or something, which can still our longing, fill our emptiness and make us whole.
May clear thoughts,
a compassionate heart,
and an untroubled body,
together help us in our search.
Today I wrote the promised "introduction" to newcomers to the scammingscene and posted it here. But admin has decided to give it its own track, which is fine with me. So anybody interested can find it http://www.stop-scammers.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=976. If this new track turns out to be of interest, I will, with a little help from my friends, update it from time to time and mention this updating here.
Hi Tone, (for everybody else, this is an answer to a post on another track).
as you maybe have understood, my own wiev of politics is not so much based upon any special political ideology (though some of them are closer to my ideas than others), but rather on how the individual's personal integrity is respected. That's why I f.ex. theoretically can accept both the extrem right in SOME forms (I'm a big admirer of Heinlein, though he does go too far at times in his superman philosophy). And the extreme left (as f.ex. the anarchists). And the true middle liberalism.
But this is theory. We must also look at the social "reality", in which human nature playes a big role.
So even if an ideology looks very attractive in theory, it doesn't help very much, if people have to be readjusted to fit into it. It should be the other way round, and that means ofcourse that a lot of the original good ideas will have to be skipped or at least postponed until later; and as human beings differ very much in their personal characters, a lot of compromises must be done. Your idea of trafic-speedlimits is probably different from mine, the level of society's collective responsibility for those who can't take care of themselves can be discussed etc.
The resulting patchwork is democracy in all its rainbowcoloured hues. I will be the first to admit, that it's far from perfect, but it does contain a possibility of growth towards better models.
Let's go back to the startingpoint. Respect for the individuals rights and accept, that this is not 100% realistic. There MUST be a common set of certain rules. Like it or not (I don't, but I can see the necessity). The question is, how much is it reasonable to let these common rules encompass? Shall they dictate, what a person is allowed to do in his private life (as a complete individual person, without involving others in his activities)? Examples as f.ex. what religion, recreative drugs, sexual orientation or dressing/body-style s/he chooses, can be mentioned.
This is where MY assumptions start. Let everybody do, as s/he wants, as long as it doesn't interfere with other peoples' lives. And if such a person after fair warning as to the consequences of her/his actions still insists on going on in this direction, well, then s/he also has the right to go straight to 'beeb', without any guarantee of sympathy or help from society. (If someone wants to help on a private basis in such situations, that would be fine with me).
It sounds very drastic, but in reality it isn't so. Mostly people want to be in some kind of social context (job, friends, family, parenthood, economical, legal or practical involvment in society etc) and according to my definition, the common set of rules MUST be followed, when you are in a social context.
It's ONLY when you alone (or together with consenting, adult like-minded), without interfering in others lives, without practising cruelty to animals or destroying something, you have freedom. In that case, I personally would find it acceptable, if a person would dance around stark raving naked, screaming obscenities, worshipping strange gods, taking whatever drug s/he wanted to use and having sex in unorthodox forms. And ofcourse "pay the bill" in her/his life her/himself.
All societies have their own version of what is allowed or acceptable. Sometimes cannabis, but not alcohol, is the accepted recreational drug. Sometimes sexual freedom exists. Sometimes pornography is allowed. A religion can be almost obligatory one place and heretic another place. Etc.etc.etc.
All this versions of what is "correct" for the individual are stuff and nonsense, it's just rules made by the topdogs, because THEY want it so.
And this is where my ideas differ standard. I think, we should get rid off all these idiotic taboos we have.
Freedom with total responsibilty isn't that complicated. It means, that we privately can take and have as much freedom as we want, if we also take the corresponding responsibilty for our actions. And I must repeat: This doesn't function in social contexts, only privately.
This would not disrupt the social structure (people do a lot of these things anyway, thus making them "criminals" sometimes). We could still have law and order, a functional economic system, schooling etc.
I wanted to make my basics clear, before I start on a discussion of various political models, because political ideologies often mirror a lot of belief-system thinking, taboos or plain totalitarian'ism.
quote:All this versions of what is "correct" for the individual are stuff and nonsense, it's just rules made by the topdogs, because THEY want it so.
Within democracy, this is true to a certain extent. (An unfortunate reality.) But, still, there is a level of checks and balances in place to prevent things from going too far right, left or into one man's pocket.
The majority of the laws do protect the majority of the people in one way or another. Most of the anti-drug laws in the US are two fold. On one hand, "illegal" drugs, aren't regulated, so the government can't tax them in any way. Another, and more health related issue, is the lack of quality control.
Let's be realitic, sometimes there's a bad batch of whatever going around and people die form it, or at least end up in pretty bad shape. Sometimes, we could be talking coma, or some other long term health problem. Junkies rarely have any kind of health insurance, and so they become a burden on society in general when drug related problems arise.
Love them or hate them, doctors in the US (and I would think in many other countries), took an oath to help the sick, and so treatment is given, but not for free. The bill goes somewhere, and that is to the government and thus the taxpaying public. At this point, the junkie IS affecting others by his or her choice.
But as for cannibus as compared to alcohol, it goes back to regulation. The effects seem to be very similar, but the average person can grow a lifetime supply of cannibus quite easily and cheaply and so no tax money!!!!!!!
Still, democracy does try very hard to find an unhappy middle road for many things. Try to please the majority, or at least the ones who vote!
Hiya, O mighty, but repressed, chief of the tribe of fierce and frozen Olgas.
Though my experience with heavy drug abusers didn't last so long as yours, it still was long enough to give me some insight in the problem. A year or so I functioned as support-person for a couple of junkies, they lived in my house, and were generally a pest. So ofcourse it does have some social effect.
But my idea is, that society at best could give a kind of minimum help to such persons. On certain conditions, namely that they (the junkies) would accept treatment in such a form, that they couldn't get any drugs. That means isolation somewhere, until the abstinence is over. Not all this endless talk with psychologists, therapists, doctors, social workers, police etc. It doesn't function in any case, and only costs a lot of the taxpayers' money. To my knowledge AA is the best system for alcoholics, and it is based on the very simple fact, that a person decides to stop abusing whatever drug s/he uses. And AA is cheap.
If an abuser refuses to accept treatment, and continues to use drugs, I think that some nice little island somewhere especially for such people, would be an idea. This way society wouldn't be burdened too much economically or socially, and the abusers wouldn't actually be in prison, only isolated from the mainstream society.
The scandinavian countries, who still have relatively good wellfare systems, were earlier far too lenient on abusers. For a while it payed to misuse drugs or alcohol. You would be given a generous pension, with very small expectations on the abuser's behalf. All this based on the assumption, that human beings are unable to make choices and take responsibilty(because we are 100% machines). Ofcourse enthusiastically accompagnied by a lot of socialist hive-mind theories and Freud'ian babbling. The result is, that we have almost a whole generation of spoiled, "professional" abusers.
As to what recreational drugs are legal, it must be remembered, that "drugs" mean a lot of things. Some are relatively harmless (though all drugs have some side-effects) and not very habitforming or socially destructive. Others are pure poison. The non-repressive society could have a much greater distinction between the relatively harmless and the very dangerous. The present attitude is woolly or mirrors some political ideology, and not the actual danger connected with use of a specific drug. F.ex. cannabis, which has the effect of making the user almost apathic, non-violent (if not mixed with other drugs) and somewhat anti-hierachial. In a society where "growth", expansion and dynamics are the holy grail, the idea of just sitting in the sun without many ambitions, is heretic. So cannabis is frowned upon.
For the consumer's hysteria to exist, it's necessary that everyone is neurotic, otherwise people wouldn't believe, that they could create happiness by comsuming. The steady hunt for producing and comsuming, which keeps the wheels running.
PS Will Alfred take care of the Olgas, when you're gone? Otherwise I could baby-, or rather Olgasit them. I don't think it would be a good idea to take them with you. Your ambiguous female contact could arrive at wrong conclusions.
Greetings and salutations swede! Some of what you say makes sense, except, why can't you send us non-junkies to live on a nice little island??? The problem with that idea is people like me. Stupid fools who are in love with the person, or parents or friends who retain the smallest hope that something we will do might change this messed up person. We are the ones who won't allow our loved ones to be shipped off to some island somewhere. Sad but true.
Something of note is that US laws can vary from state to state. I never married my junkie wh@re ex-girlfriend. If I had, I could have had her commited for psychiatric review and drug analysis (She was also a "cutter"). While driving through Maryland, she asked me if I wanted to get married. I said okay, but then she backed off from it. Maryland has quicky marriages. If we lived in states that observe common-law marriage, we would have been considered marreied simply because we lived together as a couple for so many years.
Under these circumstances, I would have had more power to help her, and her two kids, but.......
As to the welfare (socialist) systems in both our countries, I feel it almost becomes a situation where we must, in part, accept the good with the bad... or ugly. As you have said and I fully agree, democracy is far from perfection, but it's the best we can come up with in it's semi-functional (at best) form that currently exists.
Abuses will occur within any social program such as welfare/general assistance. GA is the new and improved politically correct term, since welfare has taken on a somewhat derogatory meaning here in the states. It's the job of the people to make enough stink about it to even catch the attention of the law makers and then hope they can figure out how to make changes happen. Naturally, these changes can't create such an uproar as to possibly cost the politician the next election, so we can only cross our fingers.
I personally have little problem with natural drugs. Things that grow, and can be used in their natural state like cannibus or payote. Things that are manufactured, or processed, need to be controlled in my view.
I think the political fear at this point is that if they legalize cannibus, what's next? If enough coke addicts scream loud enough, does that become legal too? Then along come the heroin junkies and so on. So, they keep it all illegal and forget about it. It is easier...
Thanks for your offer, but the duties of watching out for the Olgas will be turned over to Frau Ava Hindenberg, a German national and former speed skater with the East German Olympic team in 1972.
As it has been some time since my last three Olgas update, and I am now fairly well lubricated, thus allowing my literary juices to flow freely, so here it is!!!!
The three Olgas, now off punishment for having set the boat house ablaze, have returned poolside. The fact that they do this in 30 degree F weather still boggles my mind. It was snowing here at Stately Smoks Manor today!!!
After several hours, and once achieving a total body numbness usually reserved for cadavers and frozen vegetables, they scurried inside to watch "Green Acres". They don't wear watches, and there is no clock by the swimming pool, so how they know when it's time for "Green Acres" is beyond me? By episode six, they had sufficiently defrosted. Their spectacular NERTS, however, remained completely in tact!
Now, feeling the pangs of hunger, they all ran to the kitchen, as though chained together or syncronized scurriers, which still scares me a little, and prepared themselves some chocolate chip pancakes and smoothered them with whipped cream and cherries. Unlike their heroine Lisa Douglas (that's heroine with an 'e' on the end, not to be confussed with the drug, without the 'e' on the end, that my junkie wh@re X was so in love with), the three Olgas do actually make some pretty tasty pancakes! I'm just sick of them!!!
After the hour I allowed them to spend on the computer today, Alfred drove them to the Western Union store in the mall. I keep meaning to ask them about that???? Feeling generous, and maybe a bit guilty about having to punish them, I instructed Alfred that he could allow them to either pick one large shiny object to share, or three small ones. Upon their return home, is when I came to realize that Alfred is a 'beep'ing boob. He's presently returning the three 1kt diamond rings the Olgas picked out to the jewelry store at the mall.
Undaunted by this setback, the Olgas then took their spectacular NERTS and a bottle of vodka to the boudoir and began to shine their brass idol in ways that the union informs me, still has an insufficient 'beeps' in reserve for me to properly describe to you all in any great detail.
swede, to clarify, Frau Ava Hindenberg came highly recommended by one of my fellow tights and cape wearing, millionaire playboy comrades, having used her services, not too long ago, when he went on a similar trip as the one I'm taking. (He has three Svetlanas by the way!) Frau Hindenberg may be just what the three Olgas need! She is a veteran of the old east German speed skating team, and is highly disciplined. At 6'2" tall and 175 pounds, she is quite a statuesque woman indeed, and her Adam's apple is hardly noticeable! With luck, she will bring some of this discipline to my Olgas, as you seem to feel I give them too much freedom.
Well, Alfred has returned, and is now out back rebuilding the boat house, the three Olgas are using their 'beeps' and their 'beeps' and their tight little 'beeps' to shine their brass idol, with NERTS fully in tact, and I have just received an e-mail from someone named Elena?
I guess I'll answer it later, because I have to put on my tights and cape now, get into my totally inconspicuos over-the-top, 2000 horsepowered black prototype car and cruise the city looking to right injustice wherever it may be hiding!!! Mmmmmmmmmmm...... or I could just have another beer and see if the Olgas want to shine me for a while!!!![:p][8D]
Next Three Olgas update before I leave next Thursday!!!! Maybe it will be Four Olgas when I return????????[:o)]
"Greetings and salutations swede! Some of what you say makes sense, except, why can't you send us non-junkies to live on a nice little island??? The problem with that idea is people like me. Stupid fools who are in love with the person, or parents or friends who retain the smallest hope that something we will do might change this messed up person. We are the ones who won't allow our loved ones to be shipped off to some island somewhere. Sad but true."
There are still more non-junkies than junkies, so that island would have to be quite big to hold all the non-junkies.
Don't tell me about being stupid. I'm an expert, having spent a considerable part of my life being involved with alcoholics, drug-abusers or sociopaths. They probably have some sixth sense telling them, that I'm the perfect victim. But I refuse to let it make me bitter or dejected. Maybe more wary now. My personal answer is to find my own, inner strength (though I do not recommend new-age week-end courses in finding your inner badger to do this. There are better ways).
"If I had, I could have had her commited for psychiatric review"
You know as well as I do, that if she didn't have the wish and will to stop, it wouldn't have helped.
"As to the welfare (socialist) systems in both our countries, I feel it almost becomes a situation where we must, in part, accept the good with the bad... or ugly."
Balance is as always the keyword. There's no need to make things black or white. A minimum of help for survival, but never so much, that it pays better to stop taking responsibilty (it was that bad formerly in Scandinavia. Some times you would have 10-20% more in available income, if you were unemployed).
"I think the political fear at this point is that if they legalize cannibus, what's next? If enough coke addicts scream loud enough, does that become legal too? Then along come the heroin junkies and so on."
As you say, it's a political question (based on some more fundamental ideology). But if the problem was considered from a rational point of wiev, it wouldn't be so difficult.
It's fairly easy to determine the negative effects of the substances we ingest. But the evaluation isn't done from rational values. Take f.ex. USA, the country of ulcers and heartproblems. Seen from a quantitative point of wiev, sugar, coffee and certain kinds of fats are creating far more economical and medical problems than any drugs. (Ofcourse seen on a national scale, for the individual drugs can be worse). And at least coffee and sugar are addictive. But nobody would even think about making them illegal in spite of this.
" Thanks for your offer, but the duties of watching out for the Olgas will be turned over to Frau Ava Hindenberg, a German national and former speed skater with the East German Olympic team in 1972."
With such a name and background, the possibilty exists, that Fray Hindenberg will be able to instill a longneeded and overdue sense of discipline in the Olgas. Something you, sad to say, have neglected totally, even if you earlier have tried to deny it in a feeble and unconvincing way.
".........the three Olgas do actually make some pretty tasty pancakes! I'm just sick of them!!!"
Before my present marriage became perfect (that means, we don't live in the same place), I also (barely) survived on such a diet. Though with the addition of every known variety of potatoes deepfried in huge amounts of oil for a long time. Being a fairly good cook myself, I tried to introduce such exotic items as minerals and vitamins in our food. To no avail, ofcourse. It's not that FSUW are especially stubborn (that requires you must have a short-time memory valid more than one hour), but they are able to confuse away any issue whatsoever. In the end it requires a superhuman integrity to fight such, and anyone with superhuman integrity would not have married a FSUW in the first place.
"With luck, she will bring some of this discipline to my Olgas, as you seem to feel I give them too much freedom."
Well, you said it yourself. I'm happy, that you do listen to me sometimes. We can still make a man out of you, in spite of your national background with motherhood and stuff like that. While you are abroad, sitting alone and depressed in your hotelroom, you may take up the thought, that you can go look for your ancestral heritage, when you get back to the states. And GET that intiation, making you into a human being. Why, I am probably closer to that, having a totem-animal (it's true, I have), being able to speak amerind sign-language and having functioned as a guide on spirit-travels some years.
"and I have just received an e-mail from someone named Elena?"
I TOLD her only to use my PC on sundays. If I can only find out, which one of the Elenas who did it, she'll soon discover, she's living. Solitary confinement in the rootcellar for a starter.
"Maybe it will be Four Olgas when I return????????"
You're still a young man. You have time to learn.
I might add, that Alfreds aren't, what they used to be. So don't expect too much from him. I would put my money on the german Olga-sitter. She probably even has a martial art reinforced corset, giving her moral superiority over the Olgas.
no soapopera today. There's been a storm here and electricity has been gone for half a day.
PeopleS, do I remember correct, if I believe you are off tuesday this week?
In that case you'll be probably busy instructing the german Olga-sitter(instructions she'll forget, the second you're out the door), Alfred and make any other last moment arrangements.
So I and greatgrandfather badger send you all our best wishes now, and by special dispensation you also get some divine help from the intelligent designer, in case you need it. You just go to the nearest church, relic or holy place and look straight at it. After an eye-scanning, your help will arrive quickly (ofcourse in unexpected ways).
So good luck, with hopes of a later positive feedback, which will shame all the lemon-faces.
skipped
If PeopleS is heading out Tuesday then I would like to wish ya best of luck!!! Hope it all goes well and if it does not work out with the first gal then maybe things will rock with the back-up plan.
-Have a great trip and report in every chance ya get! We want to know how its going.
-Skipped
Hey guys! Actually I leave Thursday and loose a day in the air, so I'll arrive in Ukraine Friday. Plan A has already gone south, as the young lady has informed me she is feeling depressed and would like me to postpone our meeting.
I told her that I'm coming to Ukraine Friday and that's all there is to it. She then informed me she is going to stay with relatives because she is too depressed for our meeting and that I was unreasonable and didn't care about her feelings.
I reminded her that all my arrangements have been made and paid for. I told her any real woman would appreciate all the effort that a man has made to travel 8,000 km just to see her and that she was being selfish and immature. I also told her that apparently my original fears that she was too young for serious relations were correct.
I wished her good luck in finding whatever it is that she hopes to find and that I plan to enjoy the sites of Luhansk with or without her. The guy who's taking me from the airport to my flat asked me about what is going on with her and I told him. He said we would have to go to a disco then!!!!
I do have a plan B however and plan to give her a call tonight after work.[:0] As I said before, I'm not going to Ukraine looking for random sexual encounters, but to meet a nice girl, whether it's the original girl, my plan B, or another girl entirely??? No matter what, I intend on enjoying my vacation to the fullest! I did thank the first girl for giving me the incentuve to take what I know will be a great vacation!!![8D]
I know everyone wishes me good luck and it's appreciated. I should be able to find an internet cafe, so updates should come while I'm there.
Frau Ava Hindenberg is scheduled to arrive here at Stately Smoks Manor on Tuesday, so I'll let you know how that goes later.
That was sad, but maybe not completely unexpected. But I'm glad, that the "strategy" for first-time visitors to FSU, which has developed collectively on this forum the last couple of months, seems to function for you.
Wish I've had such information some years ago. It would have saved me a lot of heartache.
"..........................and that I was unreasonable and didn't care about her feelings".
As the girl is a real person, this attitude demonstrates the sulking sullen'ness, which I've pointed out as something typical for FSUW. They do it also with local men. No matter what you do for the gals, they will always behave, as if you've only done your expected duty, though imperfectly. No wonder the men spend most of their free time sitting in a bar drinking.
Could be, that this behavioural pattern is also commonly found in the states. In that case I must thank the intelligent designer for being a northwestern european.
Having hated loud music all my life, I'm generally unfamiliar with the disco-subculture anywhere. The only time I've been fooled into visiting one in FSU (and satellite states) was in Poland. The place was CRAMMED with hookers (I guess only 10% of the present women were non-hookers. I had this information from the locals bringing me there). But there may be discos and then discos. Maybe some of them are representative of the average locals.
But no matter what, I can almost promise you a great holiday. And in case you're an avid reader, bring your own book(s). You'll have a hard time finding any in english there.
Smoks,
I Wish you a Safe and somehow Enjoyable trip-Truely!!
Very Sincerely,
Tone :)
Considering that PeopleS will have other things on his mind in the nearest future, it looks like this track for a while will be hibernating. Maybe even go to the eternal cyber-grounds permanently, if contributors don't turn up.
I'm not too proud to admit, that I'm too proud to continue writing lecturing monologues alone, which only the very intelligent, or alternatively, the terminally bored or existentially undecessive will read.
But while I still have the chance, I would like to take a look at all the deceptively strange and different paths we've been loosing ourselves on here, and see if there's been some kind of meaning, direction or purpose in it.
Looking at religious, socio-economic, political and existential ideologies, it can be seen, that they mainly can be divided in two groups.
1/One which describes existence as a fundamentally good place, and where there's a top and a bottom. Depending on the frame such a point of wiev operates within, a "good place" can mean a "perfect" socio-economic-political system, a "perfect" universe or "perfect" intrinsic cosmic balance. The top is usually represented by the political boss(es), a god, someone-holier-than-you or sometimes richer-than-you. The bottom is made up by most of the rest of us, and our primary function is to believe and do, as we're told; to shut up and don't ask too many questions and to try climb as high as we can on the ladder to the top.
My personal opinion is, that this way of describing existence depends almost completely on blind faith and obedience, and that it leaves a lot of important questions unanswered.
2/Quite another way of seeing existence is to acknowledge, that it (existence) contains a surprisingly big amount of unpleasant elements (e.g. death, pain, war, injustice, greed, powerfights, illness etc), and that the explanation, that the boss (god, Stalin, Hitler, Djenghis Khan, Mao, the pope, a mulla......) has "mysterious" (or superiour) ways, is insufficient. In this group 2, there is a suspicion, that something is wrong with existence, and that we are exposed to some kind of propaganda tricks to make us blind to this.
In group 2 the general idea is, that neither any system, nor its boss, is infallible, and that any answers must be sought from the individual level. Not so that co-operative efforts are scorned, but the structure in such co-operations are non-hierachial.
As known by most of the regular readers here, I propose model 2 as the most correct, and I will continue along this line.
The universe is originally made from very small and simple parts. These parts combine with each other to bigger and more complex parts, and these then combine again and again, until we reach a very high degree of complexity, as f.ex. seen in biological beings. Whereas the simpler parts seem to exist in some harmonic balance with each other, that is not the case, when we look at complex beings. Predation seems to be the rule here. Ofcourse predation in one way can be said to produce balance, but it's definitely not a harmonic balance. The weaker, "eaten" part of a predatory contact usually protests, and actually most of those things we don't like about life are results of predatory processes.
That non-complex parts of the universe can combine easier into harmonic relationships isn't surprising. The need of organisation grows exponentially with the amount of elements involved. 2 elements combining give 2 communicationpaths, 3 elements give 6 paths, 5 give 120. These communication paths are regulated by some kind of administration, using part of the available energy of the whole structure. If this administration is ineffecient, non-aware (which is often the case), we will have what is commonly known as "bureaucracy", and this can grow so big, that it uses most of the energy of the parent-structure. It turns into parasitism, something well known from social structures.
Such a model can be applied to the individual human also. We have a lot of more or less connected "bits" of us floating around inside the frame, which is our individual being. "Bits" of physical matter, emotions and intellect, not quite in harmonic balance within ourselves. The result will be more or less dysfunctional.
The approach to such a dysfunctionalism can be: Either finding something or someone in the rest of the universe, which will counterbalance our personal shortcomings. That's the basis of all Hollywood dreams, soap-operas and other fantasies. Or it can be, that you turn inwards on yourself and try to make your own structure more functional first.
In the perspective of cyber-FSU dating this means, that seeking the perfect wifie in the east can be just another wish for answers from the outside. Evidence has shown, that this is not always the best method. On top of the already complicated process of finding a mate, you'll have to add the elements of uncertainty, cultural differences, time, energy and money involved etc.
So I believe, that FSU-dating actually requires a lot more of you, and that a personal re-organisation of your own life, before you do it, can be of great value. You'll need inner strength to accept failure, but also strength to prevent this from making you bitter or frustrated.
All my speculations here the last two months or so, shall not be taken as if I'm pretending to be some kind of "guru". My own life is still filled with dysfuntional aspects, so I'm only proposing ideas, which the reader can use or not use, as s/he wants.
But though we on this track at first sight have been far away from the theme of this forum, maybe you can see now, that the rovin around never has lost completely touch with "scamming". It's just been a kind of round-about approach.
PeopleS, I'm sure you will return to a better group of Olgas. They will be more sensible dressed and fed. Probably also rid of unnecessary ornamentation and with restricted admittance to TV.
Hey guys! I'm not gone yet. I spent a good part of this past weekend buying a few odds and ends for my trip, and packing. I'm just trying to think if there's anything I forgot???
Yup, I let my feelings be known in what will probably be my LAST letter to "little miss I'm depressed"... Boo Hoooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!! I actually also told her that she's starting to remind me of my X and that I don't have any place in my life for another nightmare like that again. It will surprise the heck out of me if she ever writes to me again, but guess what? I don't give a 'beep' after this stunt!!!!!
And you're right swede, there are plenty of girls like that here in the US. I have no reason to travel 8,000 km to find what is in abundance right in my own backyard.
I'm not a big disco type either swede, but I can block out the sound for one night.:D Maybe it won't be as bad as American disco music. If the vocals are in Russian, I won't be able to tell just how bad the lyrics suck!!!
Tone, click on to the dictionary in your computer or find one online. You really will need to throw in a word from time to time that uses more than two or three syllables around this thread, or swede may have an embolism![:o)] Thanks again for your well wishes!
glad you got her out of your life at this early stage, Even if a longer period of letter communication ofcourse means something, it isn't the same as a fullfledged relationship.
Having the usual FSUW attentionspan of max 5 minutes, she'll probably use those 5 minutes to wonder, exactly why you are so upset, and then she'll forget you, because her favourite serial is on now.
I can't speak more than 2-3 words in russian, but you don't need to speak the language to understand the lyrics to their music. A lot of it is about some tragedy of gigantic proportions. Some poor young girl, standing alone at the top of some windy, cold hill, under the full moon, remembering her friends and family, who all have died one by one in obnoxious ways. Killed by robbers, hanged for some petty theft, drinking themselves to death, gambling away the last of their money, getting consumption of the lungs, being eaten by combine harvesters; well, you know...!
I've never met a people, who is so obsessed with sticky sentimentality, gloom and heartrendering melancholy. It could partly explain their love for serials. At least those with a lot of suicides or breakdowns.
Even those making it to the west, sitting by the side of the swimmingpool, dangling their BMW car keys from their ringcovered hands, wearing nippleadapted bikinis costing more than a normal family uses on clothes a whole year, will listen to this kind of music, thinking: "ISN'T life a tragedy".
For readers being exposed to the style of this track for the first time: Some of the examples are slightly exagerated. This is only done for the dramatic and pedagogical effect.
Hi, one up for you. I didn't even know, what embolism was, though it only contains 8 letters.
Hey swede!
quote:Having the usual FSUW attentionspan of max 5 minutes, she'll probably use those 5 minutes to wonder, exactly why you are so upset, and then she'll forget you, because her favourite serial is on now. I say, let her wonder, although, I think I spelled out my feelings on the matter fairly coherently, even for an FSUW to get the general concept.
My Russian/Ukrainian is pretty limited also. Some words of endearment, malishka = baby, detka = baby girl, krasavica = beautiful girl etc, celuyu tebya = kiss you, spasibo = thank you, pojalusta = please, ti prekrasna = you look beautiful, stuff like that, although I really don't know the pronouncations.
quote:For readers being exposed to the style of this track for the first time: Some of the examples are slightly exagerated. This is only done for the dramatic and pedagogical effect. No it's not!!!! We really mean this stuff!!!!;) I believe it was Prometheus who commented about the dinner he had with an FSUW and her American husband, and as she stuffed her face with a lobster dinner that cost as much as half the average Ukrainian's monthly income, she complained about everything from the service to the food to the decor of the restaurant. Remember, this same girl was content with red beet soup not so long ago!!![V]
And the music you describe sounds like something by an American group, Alice in Chains! Only Lane Staley was even more gloomy with lyrics like, "I want to peel the skin from your face, before the real you lays to waste..."
This chronic dissatisfaction is what I find the most ennerving, because as a partner/husband, you have the impression, that it is a Sisyfos job (the guy who by the gods were ordered to roll this big stone to the top of a hill, from which it would then roll back down again) to have a relationship with a FSUW. You're looking forward to a life of never being able to do anything completely correct. It gives a hollow feeling inside, and takes away one of the most important parts of closeness: To be able to SHARE something.
It may be as you say PeopleS, that FSUW foremost are women, like elsewhere on the planet, but this special querulousness is considerably bigger amongst FSUW. I've sometimes had the feeling, that it's a genetic process in them, equalent to PMS. They do it without reason, or with a total disregard for what's actually happening around them.
They are ALWAYS the mistreated part (as your own example demonstrates), and they are not above fabricating "facts" (that's what the rest of us would call lying) to prove their points or to twist a situation completely.
If it wasn't for this, FSUW could be very good wives. (Excepting the scammers ofcourse). But the inability to join in the process called reality seems to be too much for them. I'm at a total loss myself here, I've never been able to understand the reason or origin of it.
My observations are based on 18 years and 4 relationships with FSUW.
Hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!! Hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!! Hahahaha! Haha!! Ha! Haha.... So you're telling me that FSUWs are the emotional equivilant of my X, who in addition to her drug use, was diagnosed as bi-polar!!! Well ain't that just a kick in the 'beep'! Why the heck was I laughing??? That's kind of depressing news.[B)]
Well, this is a letter I received from my "plan B" when I checked my e-mail after work today...
i accept your kiss and send u mine.We'll meet when u come.U arrive then u take a rest,after call my translater .Don't worry i think we'll spend our time together perfectly. On 27 and 28 i can't come on-line coz of my job so i would like so much to chat with u before u come but my work doesn't allow ( but anyway don't worry when u come we'll have eniugh time to stay with each other. I wish u safe flight and to come without any problems to Luhansk.I kiss u.Your Katyushka!
Well, I'll find out in a couple of days....[:p]
If this happens to work out for me, I will have a whole new theory about how to go about FSU/MOB dating/wife searches... Basically, check a few sites, find a few girls in one region or city, buy your tickets with the attitude that you're going on a fun vacation, and then start writing to the girls. And tell them that you're coming to their city for vacation and would like to meet them and get to know them better, etc... Because that's basically what I've done, and it has the appearances of possibly working out???[8D]
I've only been writing to Ekaterina for a couple of weeks, and have video chatted with her a few times online, so I can safely say, she's definitely not a Boris!!! We've exchanged only one or two photos, but unlike my original reason for my trip, who I corresponded with for the better part of six months, she seems more "real" as a person and not an ideal. She smokes, and likes martinis! How many FSUWs tell a guy that stuff??? I wonder if she likes video games too???
I repeat myself... Well, I'll find out in a couple of days!!!!!![^]
"So you're telling me that FSUWs are the emotional equivilant of my X, who in addition to her drug use, was diagnosed as bi-polar!!! Well ain't that just a kick in the 'beep'! Why the heck was I laughing??? That's kind of depressing news."
I don't know the meaning of "bi-polar", but I guess, it could be the same as multiple-personality? In that case, the answer is yes to your question. I have mentioned this characteristic of FSUW before, and I agree, it's not a happy situation. Sad to say, I've heard this voiced several times before by WM, who've had relationships with FSUW.
Hope my anonymity here will excuse the following indiscretion. My wife is presently home in Poland, trying to clear up the mess, her former life was/is. The process goes as follows: She is forced to confront her selfcreated problems, when she can't hide from them anymore, and she does that by dumping them on me. All the agreements we've made sofar about the procedures (like staying with the same plan for more than a week, giving me sufficient information, taking some responsibility herself) are ignored. She presents the problem, I'm expected to come up with with the solution. If I can't or won't, I'm met with self-righteous sullen'ness. I've seen this situation for 18 years now.
The excerpt you posted would make me suspicious (to stay at this happy, encouraging level I started on). That kind of spelling she uses suggests a far too deep involvment with the cyber-subculture. It's a bit too glossy. But maybe that's the way to communicate nowadays. We could try it here on psychobabble on the 16 letter words.
You're right. If I was drinking martinis, I would try to keep it a secret as far as possible. But I know, it's considered either posh or feminine to do it there. Only be aware, that you'll have to pay 4-5 times the standard price of local booze, if you buy imported. And while the beer, vodka and local "champagne" is excellent and cheap, the local vermouth can be tasting like badger'beeb" (only a metaphor, I've never tasted badger'beeb'), so you can't give her that.
Your proposal of strategy has been tried with success many times before, and seems to be the best answer sofar.
Are you seriously thinking of having a possible relationship with someone, who maybe plays videogames? Next thing you know, she'll want all 2017 episodes of her favourite soap-opera on DVD.
Your report back will be awaited with great interest. If you can expand your area of observation to non-dating activities also, it could give a background to some of our many speculations.
Well, I've been off from work for almost four hours now, and am becoming sufficiently lubricated as to be able to give you all another "My Three Olgas" update.
Alfred has returned from retrieving Frau Ava Hindenberg from the airport. After our initial meeting, I can say with some assuredness that I am confident in leaving my precious Olgas in her very capable charge.
I then instructed my faithful man-servant, Alfred, to give the Frau Ava Hindenberg the grand tour of Stately Smoks Manor. Two hours into her familiarizational tour, Frau Hindenberg requested that she be permitted to continue the tour tomorrow as she wished to "unwind" from her long flight. Naturally, I acquiesced to her request. Alfred will resume giving her the tour of the other half of the main house, as well as the other fourteen smaller structures within the compound in the morning. With luck, and the use of a scooter, they should manage to finish before I leave on Thursday.
I did take note that the Olgas seemed somewhat apprehensive of their new Au Pair, as they huddled together by the swimming pool upon her arrival. They looked as wide eyed as deer caught in the headlights of a truck barreling toward them on a highway! Curious?
As I was riding my motorcycle down the corridor from the east wing to the west wing, I happened to pass my 4,000 square foot personal home fitness center, where I saw Frau Ava Hindenberg working out. In no way do I find this peculiar, as many people find working out to be a great way to "unwind". However, I think I should make note that Frau Hindenberg was dead lifting over 350 kilos when I saw her. Hmmmmmmmm... East German engineering at it's finest I would say.
Well, the midnight hour fast approaches, and I will soon be donning my tights and cape. So I say to all, goodnight and make sure your badger has plenty of fresh water to drink!
"They looked as wide eyed as deer caught in the headlights of a truck barreling toward them on a highway! Curious?"
No, it's no so strange. ALL FSU mothers of Olgas, Elenas etc have jaws like captain America and Frau Hindenberg. With corresponding characters. So childhood memories have probably turned up in the Olgas.
If you have told them, that Frau Hindenberg is their "new au pair", there will be a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth later, when they find out the truth. You should have been honest from the start, instead of feeling safe in the knowledge, that you'll be out-of-reach on a plane, when reality dawns on them.
"However, I think I should make note that Frau Hindenberg was dead lifting over 350 kilos when I saw her. Hmmmmmmmm... East German engineering at it's finest I would say."
I'm quite sure, she'll do the Olgas a world of good.
"............., and I will soon be donning my tights and cape."
You never have problems dressing up like that for crime fighting after 30 pints??? In that state I usually have problems just finding my slippers.
Greatgrandfather badger lives here with me because, as he says, there are no real injuns left, and I was the next best choice.
I don't know, what he drinks, and I don't want to know. But I'm sure, it isn't water.
Well my friend, it's almost 11 pm here on the east coast of the US. I'm going to turn in soon, but I wanted to make this post tonight before I leave.
Bi-polar disorder is kind of a form of schizophrenia. Drastic mood swings, elation to depression, unreasonable behavior, etc...
Your wife sounds like just part of the hell I went through with my X. Everything was everyone else's fault... always!!! She NEVER took any responsibility for her own actions. And when she got her back to the wall, she went for sympathy by crying that she wished her mom was here. Her mom died in 1975! Okay, I feel bad that she grew up without a mom, but sooner or later, a person has to really grow the 'beep' up!
Once again, Katyushka is only 25 yo. May a bit too young??? Well, at least I'll get a chance to meet her and find out for sure, unlike the other one. Yes, she uses the good old "chat" abbreviations, but I don't see that as being too terribly unusual? And I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think too many chatters actually use words containing more than three syllables anyway. I doubt if there is a chat form for 90% of the words used on this thread!
What I meant about her drinking martinis, or anything, is that all FSUWs state they don't drink, or only on holidays etc. For her to come right out and tell me she drinks and smokes was odd, in my opinion, to say the least. And remember, James Bond 007 drinks martinis! So it's not necessarily a feminine thing.
If a box set of DVDs of her favorite soap opera is the most she asks for, I'll be extatic!!!:D
quote:You never have problems dressing up like that for crime fighting after 30 pints??? In that state I usually have problems just finding my slippers. Ahhhhhh! But, that is one of my crime fighting super-powers... the ability to subdue the bad guy by drinking him under the table and rendering him unconcious!!![:0][8D]
If I find an internet cafe, my next post will be from Luhansk!!!:D[8D]
"!Ahhhhhh! But, that is one of my crime fighting super-powers... the ability to subdue the bad guy by drinking him under the table and rendering him unconcious!!!"
You have opened up completely new vistas in criminology.
Again I wish you a pleasant journey and a holiday filled with happy surprises.
Looking forward to your first report.
Hehehehehe, Me too!
Hummm Smoks,
Interesting Analogy! I Hope You and Your Lady have a Great time together and who know's, Maybe Marry soon? Wowow, Stranger thing's have happened in this World!! Without Hope and Faith what do we all have remaining? Nothing!! Simply said!! My case for now is Ajourned!!
Tone [^]
Well, I think it is time to state the Truth!
Putin is a Closed Minded, Person with a Hint of Communism and Idealogic Crap in his head!! He may at times see clear Reality Yet is too Closed Minded to see the Truth's!! Ahh, Russia has 11.9% Inflation yet all is Well, Hummm, BS! Get Real Putin, You Lose and Democracy Win's!! Get It? Got It!! Go Ahead, Argue with my simple Mind set, You will Never Win!!! You want to know why Putin will Never confront me in a open arena? He will Lose!! Simple!! I Will Trash His reputation and so Much More!!!! Well, clear enough!
how far are you willing to carry an anti-socialist attitude?
Personally I've found (and experienced) a kind of middle way to be functional. Something which fits well with my almost-buddhist approach.
Schooling, medical service, old age pension, legal system, taking care of disabled, should in my opinion be part of a political system. For good or bad it IS a part of the scandinavian system, and it functions (so far).
Well Swede, Hello and I Hope you are Well!
I bascialy was alittle upset when I wrote this brief article because My Sweet Heart was forced to stay home this weekend because her boss inferred she might have a salary problem if she did not vote this comeing weekend! Ya, fair voteing right's my butt!! Here in America if someone-ANYONE-inferred this they would be in jail for vote tampering!!!! So, My Apologies if I offended any good people here, I was just venting I guess! I see the available elected person to replace Putin as nothing more than a Puppet, Simple! Humm, a PP I think-Putin Puppet!!:(
I have watched Putin in various and numerous dicussion's and new's cast's and I still say he is a Closed Minded Stubborn Person even though he has created some good program's I still see remant's of the Old Soviet Guard in place and functioning each day! I have No Problem with the Russian People, just as I do not also with American People but both of our goverment's are Disfunctional,Malfunctional and Lathargic and Purposelyfully have Labyrinth's in place to keep the common people in check and confused, Well Simply said I think!!
Humm, gives someone alittle to think about does it not?
Couldn't agree more. That's been the main theme of my posts here for 6 months.
But what to do about it? The fight between the powers that be and "the people" has existed for ages.
My suggestions have constantly been a raising of awareness, but other methods may exist.
Hello Swede!
Thank You for your opinion, seem's we agree. Well, the Russian election is over and the Winner is of course a hand picked protage of Putin-No Surprises there! One news service stated that numerous people who voted were even being shown om the form where to vote, Hummm, can you spell Intimadation? Ballot fixing? Well, I Hope the new President will think firstly about his People and Not cronies entrenched in power!! As I say on occassion, Time Reveal's all that is Hidden!!
I Hope you are Well and also I Hope Smoks is Enjoying his trip to the Ukraine!! Best Wishes!!;)
Hey guys! I'm not going to get into a long posting, but I have to comment on what Tone said about Putin. I honestly think he and his policies were what the Russian people and country needed at the time, and I compare him to Ron Reagan in some ways. Their economy is growing and national pride has returned to a degree. If the new guy can get inflation under control, Russia will be fine. Ok, their system still has a touch of the Kremlin behind it, but.....
So far, nothing to really report a bout my plan B. I haven't been able to reach her, which is very disappointing, but I'm looking toward plan C or D, and in the meanwhile am enjoying long walks around Lugansk during the day, and going to discos and night clubs at night with my new friend Alex, as in alexfriends.com. He's real, and a nice guy!
Well, between the clubbing, I have found a calling to right injustices here when I find them, and my super-power is quite cheap!!! About $1 USD for a .5L beer!!! The criminals of Luhansk don't stand a chance!!!
PS Any girl, at least in Luhansk, who tells you doesn't have a phone is flat out lying, so figure out why quick!!! I've never seen so many people with cell phones stuck to their ears!!![:0]
this is civilised compared to the election I experienced in UA some years ago.
Ofcourse I'm not FOR any centralisation, but a country starting from total confusion or a one'party system must have some time to get used to the idea of a different approach. Even the best of democracies (or rather the least bad) needs a constant brushing up.
Hey swede! I agree totally with your assessment. Toooooo much toooo soon isn't good either. Sure their was a loss of some freedoms under Putin, but the country is doing better than is was before he took office. Gotta fly!!!!!
"Gotta fly!!!!!",
that's all?? Hope it means, that you have better things to do.
Hello Smoks and Swede!
I Hope all is Well with both of you!
I am Glad to hear Smoks is so far kind of maybe enjoying his vacation in the Ukraine!! Sorry about option B maybe turning into another version of the Titanic voyage, Humm, Too Bad!! Well Smoks, do not forget-alot of photo's, Hehehe! Well, my view's re politic's are of course mine and numerous people I know and also people I chat on line with which are by the way not only from America but other countries too! I simply see Russia as a growing Democracy and this will take time for the Peoples Government to adjust However every article I have read that has been posted by a Russian National expresses the same view's and opinion's, they all want Democracy!!!! I have watched the news media from many sources these past few day's and when I see People exercising thier Freedom of Thought's and Speech being arrested and Harassed this tell's me alot about a countries back bone and how thier Government Act's / React's to various Freedom's!! Well, we will see what the PP in Russia does as time Passes and again I say I Hope he will act in Good Faith and Ethic's for all of the Russian People, not simply the Political Elite!!!
Humm, we shall see-Action's alway's speak louder than Word's!!
Tone ;)
Rome wasn't build in one day. Remember the poor guy in Russia has a lot of powerful groups against him. Both the remnants of the socialists/communists (it's far from completely dead yet), the new capitalist bosses (who also are influential), the maffia/former KGB constallation, the lack of money and the unbelievable corruption and inefficiency in the administration, and not least the average FSU person's belief, that everybody will have a swimmingpool very soon. (Saw that in Poland. People started getting really greedy a year or two after
the fall of Sovjet).
It's a difficult position to work from. And ofcourse the western attitude doesn't help very much. The east is usually seen as a place, where you can grab.
Hi Swede!
I understand all of this, a person would have to be closed minded or an idiot to not know what you have pointed out! Of course Rome was not built in a day, Hehe, my ancestor's are from Italy on my Father's side and my Mother's side from Germany, England and Ireland!! Well, I am second generation American and my Son therefor is third and my Grandson is fourth, Humm, many of American's are from another country's who Wished to Live a better life and in freedom, even though freedom has many prices to pay!! So I also say that America was not built in a Day either but as young as America is as a society it work's, not perfectly, but what country is or can say it can compare? I still say that I Admire and Respect Deeply the Russian People and Swede you are correct that the various Politican's have thier work in front of them and True Democracy will not be easliy acheieved, Never has been because No Dicatorial or Tyranical Regime want's Democracy, they Fear it to be simple and factual!! Sooo, do I have a short cure to the World's problem's, Especialy in FSU? No, I do not and simply because the People have to take back thier countries and thier government's and thru Democracy govern them selves but this takes time and alot of courage and commitment!! I mean look at America for example, we are the Freeist County in this World yet our government is all screwed up!! So, even here in America we have alot to do to get our country back and on it's intended course, Simply said yet not easily done!!!![V]
I think Goddie did a much better job of reporting then PeoPles is doing? This is good however!! Hopefully this means that things are working out great for him in the Ukraine! His Olga's or going to be upset.
I must admit, that I also am looking forward to a lot of information, when PeopleS comes back. It seems, that the situation changes quickly both concerning scamming and the culture in FSU.
I saw this explosive change in Poland in the nineties, both at the individual level and economically. The amount of money being poured into FSU and satellite states was impressive, and once the traditon of stuffing your own pockets with such money was damped a bit, the wheels started turning. Not always to the better as some of the less attractive parts of western economy are taking over. So PeopleS, we're waiting.
I Agree, stay tuned to this International Station for new updates!!:-)
jake122969
can anyone tell me what happened to the psychobabble thread all of the April and May post have disappeared
Don't know. Maybe we offended someone, but I haven't heard anything from anyone. Considering it was the last active and steady thread on the forum, it was kind of pity.
Swede,
Whatever happened too peopleS??
Haven't heard anything from him either, which had me worried for a while, but I guess, he can take care of himself. He's a great guy.
Wierd? Maybe he is busy learning his Russian. Or maybe the Olgas locked him up in the basement!!
Dudes!
Haven't checked in in ages. Think the moderator kind of screwed up the forum by creating a new UALadys forum and telling people to post there. Just sort of lost track and interest with time.
I have moved and am having the time of my life. Have to tell you that the "Russian Club" exists somewhere in every town and village in America.
Did not take long for my MOB honey to hook up with the local network here. Made the acquaintence of another great example of what we all are asking for by seeking love in the FSU.
"Bill" is a 46 year old divorcee who dabbles in royalties and has a modest home about 40 miles out of town on some land. "Oksana" is a 26 year old Ukrainian girl with long blonde hair, a dynamite body, and legs that just go from here to here.
The first time we met them for drinks, Oksana was wearing a "bejeweled" bra that she had pulled out of the sleeveless body T she was wearing. Her tits are probably a B cup, but every man in the place was fixated on them, since the bra had a neon sign flashing "LOOK AT THIS," going the whole evening.
I find out they met online, married in a matter of months. She arrived, took one look at his place and announced she was not going to live in a farm so far from the city's nightlife. In about six months time, she not only brought her mother over to live with her, but she also suckered poor Bill into buying her a trailer that she keeps downtown for "nights when I am too tired to drive out to the house." Bill keeps and eye on mother, and Oksana attends university, parties on the local club strip, and sleeps in her very fashionable Airstream 5 nights a week.
So I'm trying to figure out what these two have in common, when Oksana starts talking about her new passion... competitive dancing. Seems she taken up the sport with a vengence. "Oh, does Bill dance?" I asked (already knowing the answer). "No, I have a partner." I learn the partner is a good looking 20-something guy from my gal (probably bed mate at the Airstream to boot).
So I ask Bill if he wants a family, and he informs me that Oksana is "not interested in kids."
So I want to shake the guy, "Hey Sugar Daddy? Other than buying her things, paying for her college education, giving her an Airstream to f**k other men, is there anything at all you are getting out of this???" Boggles the imagination. Well she did wear a tiny crocheted bikini on my boat last weekend, so I certainly see the allure, but hell, eventually you've got to claim your cohones.
So anyway my friends, hope you are all having a great summer.
Good luck in your pursuits, but remember to be careful what you ask for.
Prometheus.
P.S. Mr. Haney has not had so much as a nibble in a while. Check out this email I just got from UADREAMS. See yourself in here somewhere??? Is the Shmeagol or Gollum?
Dreams come true:
We have Wedding in Lutsk!
http://www.uadreams.com/engl/home_marriages.rpx?pr=news11
Daniel My first trip to Lutsk I met my Very Special Princess after writing for several Months and Proposed on February 16th and our Feelings and common goal was to be Married with the great help of the Lutsk office and all the paper work needed to have such a wedding.
My princess Natasha did all and I arrived in the 18th of May and on the 24th of May we were married in her church and has special photos in the castel done. It was the most special moment of my life to be able to be married in such a Wonderful Place not to mention how Beautiful My Brice is. As you can see she is a True Princess. And the Most Beautiful Woman in the World.
If you want to find True Love and Happiness as I have I can only suggest you make a trip to Lutsk. Without the help of Uylia and Dana and UA Dreams I owe a debt of gratitude.
Daniel S.
I met Daniel in February. It was unforgettable first impression. On the first meeting already it was nice to understand there are a lot in common between us.
When we decided to get married I hardly believed it was not a dream. I am very thankful to this marriage agency, especially to my friends Bogdana and Uylia for this chance to join our souls.
With sincere gratitude, Natalia 20 May 2008
UaDreams staff congratulate Danial and Natalia
from the bottom of our hearts and wish them all the best!
please don't miss my posting about ualadys and uadreams in Zhitomir and Kremenchug (Ukraine) in the ualadys thread here next to this one!
goodiejens (from Kiev)
It has on this forum recently been suggested, that a reason for the diminishing interest from FSUW in making dating contact with WM is the growing economies in FSU, which makes the west less attractive.
This is quite possibly true, but there's another factor, equally important. The situation has gone political.
With the emergence of surveillance laws in the 'war against terrorism, russian spies, organised crime etc', in America, England, France and Sweden reaching Orwellian '1984' proportions, the population in FSU and its satellite states have, with the Sovjet regime still in mind, decided that they don't want another round of Big Brother.
You must remember, that the average FSU citizen is often better educated, more political aware and more nationalistic than westerners. Sad to say a 'yankee, go home' mentality has developed. Even inside the european union this polarisation is growing, endagering the efforts of turning Europe into a new superstate. Poland, Czecien, Ireland and even Germany are beginning to have doubts about EU.
The consequences for WM seeking net-dating with FSUW are, that the amount of serious women available for contact will decline, and the percentage of scammers, gold-diggers etc will grow drastically. Please keep this in mind, if you still seek love in FSU.
Well, I guess you are right when you say that. But at the same time you should know that the number of so called "average" citizens, those who are better educated, more political aware is getting less and less with years. So, we will see what is going to happen with time, say in a couple of years.
quote:Originally posted by swede
You must remember, that the average FSU citizen is often better educated, more political aware and more nationalistic than westerners.
Greetings and salutations to my old and dear comrades in the on going struggle against FSU/MOB scamming!
I have chosen to return to the forums from my self-imposed semi-retirement today, as I see there is a new, and yet very familiar, creature who has recently appeared on these pages. It would seem that there is a new "travel assistance agency" in the city of Poltava, Ukraine who has sent a representative to this and, I think we can all be certain, several other anti-scam forums, to post what can only be viewed as less than credible advertisments with a link to his site conveniently included.
My friend swede, as I always will attempt to do, I will even tie this stray bullet into the target you have put forth in your last post, and then continue on with my own thoughts more directly. Our new friend David is a fine example of the fact that regardless of the improving economics in Ukraine, although that in and of itself is debatable, that there are still many in the FSU who very much strive to acquire western dollars in any way possible.
Whatever improvement in the economy of FSU countries has been small. From my limited personal experience, I can say that Ukraine, except for cities like Kiev, Lvov, Odessa and a few others, has been slow to see much improvement. Cities along the sea coast do better than others of course. While I was in Lugansk in early March, the country was in a natural gas crisis. They had not paid there bills to Russia, their main supplier of natural gas. Russia was cutting back on the supply lines, and threatening to cut them off completely. I really don't know how that has all worked out. I haven't seen anything about it on the world news, so I suppose there was an agreement made.
It's hard to know the thoughts of each individual, but it still seems to me that the general feeling, in at least Ukraine, is "Yankee please come here and spend some cash!"... THEN GO HOME!!!
I doubt the economy of Lugansk has improved very much in the four months since I was there. Okay, locals could get an apartment for around $100 USD a month. But, Food may cost just as much per month! On an average $250 to $300 USD salary per month, that really doesn't leave much for other things. Regardless of how the average Ukrainian may view a westerner, they absolutely love all the spent cash we leave behind.
My biggest example of this merchant's attitude is Ivan, the manager of the grocery store where I shopped for food while in Lugansk. I spoke no Russian and he spoke no English, so he personally walked me through his small store to show me around, and presumably to keep my money in his store... or maybe he was just a really nice guy? I would have preferred to have been escorted by the cute cashier, but...:D
It's possible that the numbers of "real" FSUWs has dropped, but I saw on another thread that the US FBI is becoming a bit more involved in internet scamming of late. According to the post, they are also working to involve the authorities of other countries in an effort to curtail the problem on an international scale. I can't wait to see how that works out!
Here's a little something to consider regarding possible motivations for governments where scamming is prevelant... Scenario... Our friend Elena the transexual scam artist cons some guy out of a few hundred dollars. Where is Elena going to spend that money??? More than likely, right into the Ukraine economy that is still in bad need of a solid injection of western dollars! Honestly, why would the Ukraine or local government want to shut down her operation??? Or our new bestest buddy David's operation for that matter??? Yes, I actually wrote "bestest"!!! I don't think it will cause my IQ points to drop since I acknowledged the fact that I wrote that intentionally?
I personally don't see the number of blatant scammers increasing quite as much as the possibility of an increase in the gold-diggers and pro-daters. The US FBI's involvement will probably prove minimal in internet scamming unless the governments of the countries where the scammers are based step up, but I don't see their numbers increasing. However, even IF these government became involved in stopping flat out scamming, how can anyone really put an end to the gold-diggers or pro-daters?
If a man travels to meet a girl, all bets are off. She can accept gifts and anything else a man will send her and then simply say she just doesn't really like him and... well that's it!
For anyone who is wondering if this is what happened to me with Katya and I was too embarassed to come back here, thus my absence... Nope! I never sent her a dime and she never asked for one. Pro-dater??? Maybe? We went out one time, I spent a few bucks, but I also had a great time with her, so I really don't feel ripped off. It was a fun date!
Well, I hope that my returning dissertation was sufficiently long and drawn out enough to bore each and everyone of you to death!!! And to all the funny little minds who illadvisedly venture into the pool in a vain attempt to sell their pitiful wears... DON"T BOTHER!!! We are all much... MUCH smarter than you!!!!!!!!!![8D]
Gotta go! I think one of my three Olgas got her ass sucked into the jacuzzi drain again![:0]