text:
A Gentle Reminder
by John Coleat9:44 am on July 8, 2016 . It has 431 Comments.
We still really don't know jackshit about what happened or why this happened, so try to be a responsible consumer of news today before you say or do things you might regret.
I was noting last night that more than at any point in my life (I was born in 1970, so missed 1968), everything feels like it is unraveling and the country is going off the rails. We know for a fact that irresponsible people will try to take advantage of this situation, because chaos is where evil finds natural camouflage, so don't let them. Unplug and go garden or play with the pets or take your kids to the park or do whatever it is that relaxes you. Nothing you are going to do is going to change the events that have already happened, so don't feed the beast.
This post is in OLD MAN YELLS AT CLOUDS, Open Threads.
https://www.balloon-juice.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/balloon_juice_header_logo_grey.jpg 0 0 John Cole https://www.balloon-juice.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/balloon_juice_header_logo_grey.jpg John Cole2016-07-08 09:44:202016-07-08 09:44:20A Gentle Reminder
Richard Mayhew says:
I vote for ice cream
Cermet says:
Lived thru the 60's and this is mild compared to how that felt. However, long term dangers are worse; nuclear weapons were a fear but never a real threat 99.9% of the time. AGW is real, hitting and will kill millions and destroy the lives of BILLIONS! Far, far worse than the 60's.
moonbat says:
ROAD TRIP!!!! With the radio, tablet and cell phone turned off and the pooch in the back. Hoping to see if the Cubs can pull out of their slump in Pittsburgh. Heard the stadium there is lovely.
Morning Cole.
Seth Owen says:
I lived through the 1960s — this is the worst it's been since then but it isn't worse. That said, just because the Great Recession wasn't quite as bad as the Great Depression doesn't mean it did not suck. People should chill. It's been a bad week.
bjacques says:
There's a Dutch expression that translates as "the limping messenger." It applies to waiting for the actual message to arrive and be read rather than speculating on its metadata such as sender, recipient, size and type of envelope, handwriting or typing of addresses, etc. Ahead of the message fly speculation, rumors and counter-rumors, and people act on them. Finally the message arrives, and all that energy has been wasted. So I'm waiting for that message to arrive before commenting on anything except what's already happened. If that.
Rosalita says:
It's astounding how fast the "beast" comes to life when things like this happen, I've been seeing exactly this all morning — people jumping to conclusions and sniping at each other. Taking the day off from news and getting accurate information later is the best thing to do. However, it does seems that we are completely off the rails and heading over the cliff in general…
The Other Bob says:
Good advice Cole.
Hal says:
This sums it up for me…
http://poorlydrawnlines.com/comic/portal/
JPL says:
MomSense says:
@Richard Mayhew:
I'm going to splurge and get some gelato.
schrodinger's cat says:
Going on a road trip tomorrow, will blast Queen on the speakers as I am driving.
Benw says:
Don't panic.
Thread needs Maru and the Macques
Technocrat says:
Holy shit. First Ivanka is ghostwriting for Trump, and now Lily is ghostwriting for Cole!
(I keed, I keed. Sage advice)
Mark k says:
any word on if any of the dead police officers is the one that murdered the guy causing the protests last night?
Jim, Foolish Literalist says:
In other news, the lockdown at the Capitol has been lifted, apparently whatever staffer decided to bring her piece to work just in case a sniper showed up so she could drop him like Raylan Givens has been persuaded to surrender her personal protection unit
mike in dc says:
Make America Love Again. Be kind to people today. This weekend. As much as you can.
danielx says:
Well said…..and since some coolness and humanity seems called for, your humble obedient servant offers the ultimate Marvin Gaye song.
Imagine being born in 1942 and seeing all this unfold from that perspective, It just seems like a good day to lose myself in a book and stay off any kind of media.
@Mark k: Your type of posting is sick – if a troll, leave. If serious post, take a hike off a moderate cliff
HRA says:
Thank you for sending this post, John.
the Conster, la Citoyenne says:
I remember enough of the 60s to think that it was probably worse then. The riots after MLK was shot – I think that was the worst, then RFK. I was a young teen, and it was just total despair. No hope. I feel more hopeful that even as we're witnessing a white meltdown now that the lid has been blown off white supremacist patriarchy (thanks, Obama!), there is simply no going back to the way it was when everyone non-white/non-male were kept in their place. We simply have to learn how to live together and share, because there's no other way forward. There are simply just way more of us than angry white fucktards, and we ALL need to VOTE. We need to vote against not just Trump, but the NRA.
Rey says:
Mega- Millions lotta drawing tonight!! buying my tickets and only watching HGTV & NFL network today
Cat48 says:
I already spent my online shopping,budget this a.m. So flowers next.
donnah says:
On one hand, we have become desensitized to the killings that happen every day. That poor woman who live tweeted her boyfriend's death…wtf? Everyone has a camera now and for good or bad, events are captured by bystanders.
On the other hand, people are angry all of the time. Road rage, family disputes, political animosity, it all ends up in violence against other people. Some people feel entitled to act out every bit of anger against their perceived aggressor. Nobody talks now, they react.
I don't know what happens next. It's hard to imagine the undercurrent of rage being cut off. Do we start teaching anger management classes now, from preschool through high school? Because we seem to suck at handling it.
kindness says:
It seems like '68 in that those that want to incite violence are doing it in a big way. I sure hope everyone sees killing each other isn't the way. Cops shouldn't kill citizens. Citizens shouldn't kill cops.
Working from home because I'm sick and listening to Glenn Beck. He states that he will wait for due process to judge the MN shooting and then immediately blasts BLM and their responsibility for Dallas. Fair and balanced.
negative 1 says:
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Please, oh please, just stop mentioning any race whatsoever. It's not hard. It's not a white meltdown. I'm white. I'm not melting. Cole is white. He's not melting. If you can't make a point without group generalizations, don't make the point. Some people find their prejudices to be going away. It makes them scared, that makes them angry, but emotions fade and society will likely be better for it.
Every cop is not a murderer, every black person is not murdering cops in revenge or secretly hoping as such, and every white person is not melting down.
JCJ says:
I am watching the bear cm from Katmai National Park
http://explore.org/live-cams/p.....ooks-falls
different-church-lady says:
When Cole is telling people not to fly of the handle, it's a real indicator of how real shit has gotten.
I see the inexplicable comment nuking has returned.
No One of Consequence says:
Sage advice, Mr. Cole. We are the same age, though we have different stories.
I have been trying to pay attention in general to our country and world since I was young. Sorrows abound. Tragedy blooms as much as hope. Politically, I have been trying to pay attention since Carter. The appointment and reign of C+ Augustus bothered me considerably. The current state of our national discourse is deplorable. Our country's achievements are laudable, and our shameful actions lamentable.
The Interesting Times we find ourselves in now… I am worried for where all this leads. For every last one of us.
Please be well everyone, and please be kind too.
– NOoC
When Cole is telling people not to fly off the handle it's a real indicator
The Ancient Randonneur says:
When The streets of half a dozen burning cities are patrolled by the National Guard I'll be truly concerned about the republic making it through the year. Trump hasn't been in front of the cameras yet so things could go down hill real quick if he runs his mouth.
When Cole is the one…
Lolis says:
When Giving Is All We Have
Alberto Ríos, 1952
One river gives
Its journey to the next.
We give because someone gave to us.
We give because nobody gave to us.
We give because giving has changed us.
We give because giving could have changed us.
We have been better for it,
We have been wounded by it—
Giving has many faces: It is loud and quiet,
Big, though small, diamond in wood-nails.
Its story is old, the plot worn and the pages too,
But we read this book, anyway, over and again:
Giving is, first and every time, hand to hand,
Mine to yours, yours to mine.
You gave me blue and I gave you yellow.
Together we are simple green. You gave me
What you did not have, and I gave you
What I had to give—together, we made
Something greater from the difference.
@different-church-lady: …telling people not to fly off the handle
Major Major Major Major says:
@debbie: that's no way to help your immune system!
it's quite an indicator
@different-church-lady:
I'll admit it. I kept refreshing the page, waiting for your next installment.
It's been an effective tactic since Burma Shave.
ETA: I enjoyed it more as a triplet!
SiubhanDuinne says:
@Judy:
Imagine being born in 1942 and seeing all this unfold from that perspective
I was born in 1942.
@different-church-lady: it's an in-di-cat-tion of just how real shit has gotten.
PurpleGirl says:
@Cermet: I think the expression you want is take a long walk off a short pier. At least that's how I learned it.
TaMara (HFG) says:
The first thing I did today was turn off the morning news and stay away from facebook. I have a lot of opinions on all of this, but since it matters not what I think, I'll keep them to myself. I have friends and family on both sides of this horrific divide and I worry for both.
Always a good thing, and I even have a coupon…
good suggestion Mayhew
Calouste says:
OT, but Jill Stein is saying that she is willing to step aside and let the charlatan from Burlington run on the top of the Green Party ticket, according to the Guardian.
I was afraid that was going to happen, and it's really bad news.
LAO says:
You've really stepped up your game these past two days Mr. Cole. It reminds me of why I love this site. Thanks.
ETA: Excellent suggestion Mr. Mayhew.
Iowa Old Lady says:
At the gym this morning, old white ladies mourned for the violence we live in. They talked with horror about the MN shooting and saw the connection. They knew that they had more trust in police than African Americans do for a good reason, and that the new ingredient here is the omnipresence of cameras. Some of these people are very conservative voters. I found their reaction encouraging.
jeffreyw says:
Thread needs moar kittehs.
@Technocrat: Two possible explanations:
a) I've given up and decided to join the idiotic Storify revolution.
b) I'm trying to figure out which innocent word FYWP has decided is a spam word today.
apparently that word is "in-dee-ka-tion"
@Calouste:
Bad news? I don't see how. All it does is make the Green Party look incredibly desperate, and hilariously undemocratic. At least the Dems have a primary, who knew Jill Stein just picks the ticket?
The Dangerman says:
Very sad day with a minuscule amount of good news.
After Sandy Hook, the "other" argument was "if there had only been a Good Guy with a gun there". Arm the teachers!
After Orlando, the "other" argument was "if there had only been a Good Guy with a gun there". Arm the patrons!
We won't have to hear that nonsense this time.
I lived through the 60's too. This doesn't even come close. As bad as Trump is, he ain't no George Wallace.
dedc79 says:
As a kid i was obsessed with nature documentaries. I recall learning about the lemmings and how they periodically, in large numbers, commit suicide (untrue, as it turns out). About the lions who murder their own young. About the orcas who toy with their living prey before killing them. As a kid, I thought these were points of distinction between "us", the humans, and "them", the animals. And one of the saddest aspects of "growing up" has been that gradual (or sometimes all too sudden) realization that we do all of these horrible things, on a far grander scale, and with a self-awareness that gives us far less of an excuse.
FlipYrWhig says:
@Calouste: She's ridiculous. He's a judgmental, sanctimonious ass who's excessively self-confident and has trouble taking a hint, but he's not insane.
@The Ancient Randonneur: Well, it's only July…
Good advice Cole. Personally, I'm trying to stay cool. Both my air conditioners are broken and there is too much clutter in the house for repairmen to get to the units. I may go into the bedroom there is a ceiling fan and try to sleep for a while. Also with the city expecting thunderstorms later today the wind pattern may be off a lot because I hear a lot of planes using the bad weather landing zone. (It's right over my head.) At some point I have to get money and do some food shopping.
Time to watch a kitten cam…
@PurpleGirl: Just wanted them to break a leg or two; but if they can swim, the long walk off a short pier isn't exactly much of a threat …unless there are Bull sharks nearby but that tends to be fatal …
Snarkworth, short-fingered Bulgarian says:
2016 =/= 1968 because draft.
@negative 1:
What do you think Trump is about? Have you seen his rallies? What explains them?
Another Holocene Human says:
I impulse bought "Beanitos."
Just a tad like pappadams.
Quinerly says:
Suggested reading:
http://washingtonmonthly.com/2.....-violence/
gvg says:
@Cermet:
nuclear weapons were a fear but never a real threat 99.9% of the time.
ooh do I disagree there. Nuclear was most definately a threat most of the time. We carried on as if it wasn't because what else could you do? My dad's generation had quite a few people commit suicide specifically over that pressure too. He knew the guy who wrote Alas Babalon and went to school with the daughter. People built bomb shelters. This is one reason Cheney pissed me off so bad with his pants wetting we can't let anything be even 1% threat to America and we have never been in such danger speeches. He lived through the times, he knew better, he was just a coward. I felt he was humiliating for America, and some senator should have stood up and said "you are a coward"
Oh well that is a bit off topic rant. It's pretty serious, but still…people don't mostly want it to be. we want justice for all our citizens and don't want police killings and do want polite police. So we will vote that way. We have some nuts who want to provoke, not realizing the results won't be what they imagine.
@SiubhanDuinne: Then you understand how incomprehensible it all is.
Betty Cracker says:
@Calouste: It would only be bad news if Sanders took the bait, which he won't. According to the NYT, he's set to endorse Clinton on Tuesday.
Patricia Kayden says:
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Very well said. Cooler heads need to prevail in times like these. Thank God we have a sensible President who can talk and chew gum at the same time.
You can be pro-police and anti-police brutality simultaneously, as these are not mutually exclusive concepts.
sherparick says:
@Seth Owen: About right. Although Rick Perlstein is probably right that every year since 1968 has been replaying the themes of that year ever since.
@jeffreyw: Awwww, cute overload, Thank you. (Especially since Animal Planet is doing a marathon of Treehouse Masters.)
Mark B says:
@The Dangerman: I'm not sure that that bullshit is vulnerable to logic. I expect we'll hear that the only way to stop a sniper with body armor is to have your own snipers with body armor taking even higher positions. ]
Sure, there were good guys with guns in the crowd, but they weren't positioned properly, or some other business. Guns are like communism, they can never fail, they can only be failed.
Gun worship is a religion. Fighting it with logical arguments can have some impact on people at the fringes of the movement, but the core will believe in it no matter what.
BTW, any interest in a classic B movie clip of Suspected Socialist Steve Rogers jumping out of an airplane howling "I love Bernie!" like the Bernout we all knew he could be? It feels like internet gold.
@Iowa Old Lady:
Thank you for this posting.
Bummer! I was going with "avante-garde performance art invoking WP as a medium to highlight the transient and disjoint nature of blog comments".
Maybe I over-thought it?
@jeffreyw: Kittens are always needed!
MattF says:
@Calouste: Nah. Bernie has already crossed the line into reality. The question is whether some remnant of his dead-enders will follow.
MikeBoyScout says:
Off grid camping is my plan this weekend.
Next week will resume GOTV activities.
The darkest hour is always just before the dawn
I was noting last night that more than at any point in my life (I was born in 1970, so missed 1968), everything feels like it is unraveling and the country is going off the rails.
Yep the late 60s to mid-70s were a different ballpark when compared to this.
I say that as someone who is old enough to have had people I cared about serve in Vietnam and two not come home. The assassinations of personal heroes were brutal. Driving across the Ambassador Bridge while the city of Detroit was burning and National Guardsmen with bayonets affixed stood on corners was immensely disturbing.
My friend's dad was a U.S. Marshal and he spent a month camping out in the garage of a federal judge had ordered the continuance of busing in Boston. Riots ensued. And those items were before Cambodia, Watergate, and the energy crisis.
Is the current rough patch worse than the above? I am not so sure, but then again I'm also not sure what metrics we would use to measure that.
Gin & Tonic says:
@Calouste: I can't check here, but I think more than a few states have "sore loser" laws that would prevent Sanders running on a different party line.
@MikeBoyScout: How dark does it have to get?
@eclare: I can grant your wish through the miracle of modern technology.
Carolyn Kay says:
There was a report on TV this morning that one of the suspects they've arrested talked about the "end times". That doesn't sound like a black activist to me.
Punchy says:
At this point, I should be buying duct tape and plastic sheeting, right?
@jeffreyw: Awww! So cute. I had two cats die last year, and I haven't jumped back in, but getting closer….thank you!
@gvg: Cheney was part of the crew that almost led the world into nuclear war in 1983. Arguably closer than the Cuban missile crisis.
Mike in NC says:
Adopted a kitten yesterday from a Ragdoll breeder located 90 minutes SW of Columbia, SC. Road trip from hell that took nearly 5 hours each way. But we're all home and he's having a blast exploring the house and is getting along fine with our older cat.
Cacti says:
Name of the shooter has been released:
Micah Xavier Johnson
Reportedly a US Army Veteran per his statements to police.
@jeffreyw: That's one cute kitteh. Look at the ginormous ears!
@Gin & Tonic:
I was curious and checked. Had thought that there was a line of reasoning out there that the sore loser laws in most states didn't apply to presidential primaries. Here's what comes up with a quick search:
Aimai says:
@Calouste: he is not going to do it now. Being booed by your co workers was a wake up call. Im pretty sure bernie knows his fantasy of a white working class surge in his favor ended with the dallas shooting. He was never prepared to deal with anything other than economic oppression. Watching what obama deals with–the unexpected and the horrific–has probably made bernie realize he doesnt want to be either the spoiler or the president.
@Keith G: I meant to add that there was a reason why Marvin Gaye released What's Going On early in Janurary 1971.
That album should be required listening today.
Villago Delenda Est says:
We know for a fact that irresponsible people will try to take advantage of this situation
Joe Walsh (not of the Eagles), we're looking at you, pus-oozing manure-head.
Immanentize says:
@The Dangerman: Jill Stein must really really hate Hillary.
ETA — she does this just after it is announced that Bernie will endorse Hillary next Tuesday?
Mnemosyne says:
I'm going to stay away from Facebook for a few days. I have several relatives who are cops and also tend to post a little too quickly, and I don't want to get into any fights over an all-around tragedy.
I will be giving more money to Americans For Responsible Solutions, because I can't think of anything else to do.
And I think we're actually in a slightly better situation now than the 1960s or even the 1990s. For one thing, I can't picture another huge riot here in Los Angeles like the one in 1992. It's just not that bad economically or with the LAPD. Things have improved even if sucky things continue to happen.
I was 20 in 1968. This isn't the same. It's not good but not the same. The country is divided for different reasons this go round.
Matt McIrvin says:
Worst since the Sixties… I don't know, remember Rodney King and the Los Angeles riots in '92? That was really one of the first cases of someone actually getting an egregious abuse incident on video, pre-YouTube or Facebook, and the reaction was bigger than anything we've seen lately, way bigger than the Baltimore riots or anything that happened in Ferguson.
Steeplejack says:
Good advice, Cole.
To lower one's blood pressure, Wimbledon is on ESPN (currently Federer and Raonic in the semifinal), and, even more stress-relieving, the Tour de France is on NBC Sports for another hour. I have almost zero interest in competitive cycling, but the scenery is gorgeous. (Entering the Pyrenees today!) It's like animated background wallpaper for the TV. Almost every morning for the next two weeks.
Yesterday there were a couple of great moments: a woman on a white horse cantering in a field alongside the peloton (the main group of riders); and later a couple of kids riding their bikes like mad on a path parallel to the road.
. . . Just found a video of the horse!
And check out the scenery.
@Mike in NC: Pictures, man. OIDH
@Immanentize:
Jill Stein must really really hate Hillary.
The Green Party can always be counted on to do what's best for the GOP.
I absolutely never thought I would say this — much less link a post to Redstate — but this piece by Leon H. Wolf is quite remarkable.
Face says:
Micah? That's unpossible. Maybe "Al Mikka Mohammed Johnson" or "Micah El Moostafa Allah Beazgrate Johnson". Clearly something erroneous.
gene108 says:
everything feels like it is unraveling and the country is going off the rails.
"Funny" think is so many things have been going right for the last 20+ years and have gotten better over the last 7.
High school graduation rates are at record highs.
Crime rates are at record lows.
Teen pregnancy rates are at record lows.
There's a lot to be positive about, about our country, but somehow the good news is not getting through to people.
Pogonip says:
@different-church-lady: I thought I heard FYWP chuckle evilly, then burp.
@gvg: We still have those nukes on all sides and we are rather sure all is safe (which I do feel is true) and frankly, in hind-site, there was little danger of real nuclear war then. WE did come close once but that was in the 90's!!! If you mean perceived threat, then yes, I do think that is true.
It's a good way to keep the Green Party in the conversation. I wager she'd be shocked if he actually agreed.
It would have really worried me if she's said that a month ago. Now? The big Sanders-endorses-Clinton event is already on the calendar for Tuesday and she's desperate for attention.
Stein = Sanders = Nader
Chyron HR says:
@Carolyn Kay:
Black realist, then?
Shell says:
Some more needed distraction. Sid Caeser and the classic "This is Your Story" sketch. (Uncle Goopy!)
Okay, how do you paste a link without getting into moderation?
@Face: That is a Jewish prophet's name … strange.
On our SC road trip, saw a billboard for a Survivalist Expo sponsored by some nutcase doomsday prepper group anticipating the Zombie Apocalypse. Good times indeed.
@Immanentize: Isn't Green party pretty much irrelevant?
D58826 says:
@Cermet: I lived thru the 60's also. And a couple of observations. Guns were no where near as prevalent and those that were seemed to be mostly the Sat. Night special hand gun and not military style AR15s. There was a much higher level of trust in our institutions by most people, whither it was the media, politicians, etc. I'm not saying the institutions were perfect but there was a greater level of trust. Social media and the internet obviously didn't exist so information spread at the speed of the newspapers and TV media. The media had the time and the people to act as a gatekeeper. Again the media wasn't perfect but there was time to think, gather some information and write a 2000 word story with some context rather than having air time to fill with people screaming at one another. Even our political leaders seemed more responsible. Sure they played political hardball but there were lines that were not crossed. No one was accusing the President of being a traitor (well the Birchers did but they known extremists, not members of the leadership in Congress).
@Face: I thought the same thing — Traditional Jewish first name, Traditional Catholic middle name….
I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet says:
I was a kid in the '60s and don't remember too much of the goings on in '68, but did watch the news every night and Vietnam was a huge issue. It was always a big part of the news, especially after Tet (January '68) and after the My Lai Massacre (March '68) became news. And Kent State. Our government seemed to be going off the rails in ways that were too blatant to ignore. And the assassinations. And the perpetual worry about being blown up by the Evil Communists™.
I, as a kid, didn't understand what things were like "before", but did have a sense that things weren't quite right. "We won WWII in < 5 years, why can't we win in Vietnam? Will I end up being drafted, too?"
There was a general sense that I had, and I assume others did as well, that things were different and change was happening and there was lots of chaos. The path forward wasn't clear.
There's some of that same feeling of unease in the general population now (something that the AA and immigrant communities have lived with a long, long time), and it seems to be growing in some ways. But we're not there yet.
Change is needed to address these policing and 2nd Amendment issues in sensible ways. I hope those changes come soon. I think the path forward is quite clear compared to '68. We need to work together.
Scott.
@Keith G: Seconded…will be listening to it today. Inner City Blues (Makes Me Wanna Holler), Mercy, Mercy Me, the title track…
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: I think they're about people being afraid of their prejudices about their perceived social superiority coming to an end, and them being angry because they're afraid. Helping others achieve their dream, and working toward a place where [ethnicity here] people just becomes people doesn't mean that their lives have to get worse, and I'm all for pointing that out to them.
Do you think that saying they're having a white meltdown encourages them to see that our way is better?
@schrodinger's cat: Oh yes it is, but it is like sand in the trunks from the beach — not important at all but still irritating.
@Steeplejack: The Tour also has perhaps the best English-language commentator in any sport, Phil Liggett.
Cole, you forgot to add "I hate you all."
Miss Bianca says:
@jeffreyw: Oh, thank you. Never enough kitties! My two are keeping me grounded today.
@Shell: You some how linked the reply button to your post. To avoid moderation — you have to use the link feature. Remember to close the link before you press post comment.
grandpa john says:
@PurpleGirl:Thanks for the information about treehouses I just turned on the tv and went to the channel, my wife and I love the tree house and tiny house programs
We still have those nukes on all sides and we are rather sure all is safe (which I do feel is true) and frankly, in hind-site, there was little danger of real nuclear war then. WE did come close once but that was in the 90's!!!
What incident in the 90's are you referring to? We came pretty close in 1961-2 with the Berlin and missile crisis. There was an incident in the early 80's when the Soviet leaders apparently took Reagan's rhetoric and a NATO training exercise as a prelude to a first strike. The USSR started to mobilized it's military before cooler heads prevailed.
@Keith G:
Yes. And he's not asking a question.
@eclare: Somewhere out there are some kitties looking for you…
True dat.
Poopyman says:
@jeffreyw: Threads always need moar kittehs. Thanks for providing.
@LAO:
Wow, great catch. It's not just a good post "for RedState", it's a good take period.
Trump's candidacy has really shaken up some thinking on the Right. Some.
@The Dangerman: I was worried about Sanders but I think he's come around. He's not going to Nader this year. That train has left the station.
@Gin & Tonic: Interesting stat about this year's Tour is that we're 7 days in and no one has dropped out yet.
@Major Major Major Major:
I thought laughter was good for the soul!
Beck's rattling on about some theory which he thinks explains African Americans' intense fear of the police: During slavery, when women were raped, some chemical was encoded into their DNA making their descendants permanently overly fearful of authority.
This is new to me.
@D58826: Most likely referring to the 1983 Able Archer exercise and misremembering.
Does no one else remember the early 2000's, especially 2001-2 being particularly tense? I seem to recall it being that if you weren't openly jingoistic you were a traitor, and I'm not talking just in internet comment sections. There is a large population of armenians in my area, and they were largely scared sh!tless from the racists calling them 'mooslim traitors' (the irony it burns). Never mine anyone who actually was Pakistani, Indian or heaven forbid Persian… That also doesn't include the government sanctioned LGBT discrimination and related hate crimes.
I don't know, seems like a bad incident that the DPD really handled well. Not letting the bad feelings turn into tribal revenge would seem to me to be a step up from previous societal handling of such events.
@Steeplejack: cool! Guys on horseback always slay me.
@Technocrat: Is it too much to hope for that maybe, there can be some positive change after the last 3-4 days? I read some of the comments and I found some of them to be encouraging. (Not all mind you).
@D58826: In 1995, the Russian strategic forces went on alert because of a misidentified US-Norwegian scientific rocket. It was probably the closest call in the post-Soviet era.
Trentrunner says:
@Matt McIrvin: The riots were in response to the cops doing the beating being found not guilty in trial, not a response to the beating itself. For the record…
Baby critter cam. (10 seconds)
Amir Khalid says:
Has any major-party candidate ever joined two different parties in the same presidential election? As popular as Bernie is with the yoots and the progressives, I don't think even he can make this work.
@debbie: Jesus. I suppose they contracted drapetomania too?
I will say that their overall take (excluding some of the comments) is nearly 180 degrees from what I expected. "Shocking" might be an overstatement, but it might not. We'll see how it plays out.
Even this piece, while too pro-gun for my taste, is surprisingly non-racist. It's…consistent, at least.
@Trentrunner: Indeed, I should have made that clear.
@jeffreyw: awww…and country girl that I am, my first thought was, "wow, the mama doesn't seem to be all lumpy with deer tick bites – all right!" ; )
@Amir Khalid: Teddy Roosevelt in 1912 founded his own party after losing the nomination of the Republican Party.
@Technocrat: Agreed. And I'm shocked as well.
scav says:
Just carting nukes around posed real dangers (much like guns in the home). We nearly bombed North Carolina in 1961.
bemused says:
@Mnemosyne:
So they are happy, tickled pink, that all these extremely lethal weapons are being carried around by gun nuts?
PaulWartenberg2016 says:
I just want the violence to stop.
I just want the fearmongers and hatemongers to stop shilling on the cable news and twitter feeds.
@LAO: I am going to post that for my crim. law class this fall. Thanks
@negative 1: Hell yes. In some ways it was sort of the polar opposite of the present moment, though: the right-wing authoritarians didn't see themselves as an aggrieved countercultural fringe; or they had been, but now they'd won, thanks to the Supreme Court and Osama bin Laden. Most of the population was on their side, and they were set to take what was theirs and remake America.
And, of course, they overreached, screwed everything up and lost whatever mandate they had. But it took about five years, and that's not how they see it.
@scav: Read the whole book. It's terrifying.
Mike J says:
Meanwhile Europe, people protest in favour of a renewable source of oil to replace petroleum.
PST says:
@moonbat:
Hoping to see if the Cubs can pull out of their slump in Pittsburgh. Heard the stadium there is lovely.
It is. I saw a game there for the first time about a month ago. Whole darn city is pretty nice as well.
I can remember trying to see Maya Angelou speak in 1993, unable to get into the packed auditorium. Outside there were a large group of African-Americans, very religious-talking and dressed rather professionally, and their little 4-5 year old kids were dragging around a cart with their alternative newspaper of UFO conspiracy End Times prophecies. It's not all unstable white folks living off the grid talking this conspiracy stuff.
Moar distraction!
Killer was Micah X. Johnson, Army vet.
And now it seems the Dallas Police Department just plain up murdered the shooting suspect.
Look, the guy is holed up, he can't escape, he most likely doesn't have much food and water. He'll come out in a day, maybe two. Oh, and there's teargas, stuff like that.
@Calouste: Bull fucking shit.
Captain C says:
@Calouste: I'm pretty sure Bernie knows (at least on some level) that if he does that a) he'll have no seniority whatsoever when he returns to the Senate, and will be assigned to the toilet scrubbing committee and b) he'll face a serious, well-funded challenger in 2018.
Also, since we're talking about someone (Stein) who seems happy to have a Trumpster Fire presidency because reasons, it's worth saying again, people who wish to Heighten the Contradictions should volunteer themselves to be the first to have the Contradictions Heightened on them, not on others, especially vulnerable ones.
That was a good piece. And the comments started out being good, too, which was surprising, but then some guy had to bring up the "Democrat Party" and the curse of identity politics. Ugh.
If you had to go on a vacation and the choices were Washington DC and Myrtle beach, which would you pick?
@Calouste: Please stop. You can not possibly have a reason to have come to that conclusion based on the article you linked to.
@schrodinger's cat: Time of year?
karensky says:
@bjacques: This is a great strategy.
@Technocrat: @LAO: Wow, two decent Redstate articles in a row? What is this old world coming to?
@PaulWartenberg2016: The violence won't (and probably can't) stop yet.
I know when I have said this in the past it has sounded a bit ghoulish, but it is none the less true: Not enough people have died yet. And more importantly, not enough of the "right people" have died yet.
As horrible as it is, last night was a payment to help fill that quota. I wish that this were not the case, but I don't see this problem unfolding any other way.
There is no way that the cops could have defended themselves from what happened. The issue is the weaponry involved. Therefore the brutal executions that occurred last night will serve eventually to focus the issue on weaponry. No, it won't be a short or direct path, but I believe we are a step closer to finding movement on this issue.
Humboldtblue says:
Sweet mother of history, you motherfuckers are OOOOLLLLDDDDD!
@Humboldtblue: Steady in the ranks.
@Matt McIrvin: Speaking of Baltimore, today is the first day of Bronycon.
@schrodinger's cat: Everyone should visit DC at least once. Several new things have opened in the last few years:
National Museum of African Amercian History and Cuture (opens September 24)
In addition to things like the Lincoln and Jefferson Memorials that shouldn't be missed.
And the Wall.
The beach will always be there. ;-)
Be aware that the museums and monuments on the Mall aren't as close together as they look. Be prepared to do a lot of walking, which can be painful on hot and humid days.
HTH.
OK, here's a link about sore loser laws possibly not applying in presidential primaries. I tried to post it earlier as a reply to a commentator. Pretty sure it's me and my newness to actually posting and not lurking. Might be my Windows smarty pants phone. Someone please give me the step by step to post a link so that doesn't go in moderation or doesn't just disappear. Much appreciated. BTW, that was pretty awesome yesterday with Mary G and this little community. Got my mind off some crap that had been weighing on me….albeit only for a couple of hours. https://ballotpedia.org/%22Sore_loser%22_laws_for_presidential_candidates
@negative 1: Agreed. The DPD chief said negotiations had broken down and the shooter was engaging in gunfire again. Sounds like the cops did what they had to do.
@I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: I used to live outside of DC and work in NoVa, never been to Mrytle beach.
@D58826: After the fall of the USSR, when Boris Yeltsin was President, an upper atmospheric rocket the US weather service (!) launched from Norway caused the Russian missile defense to go on a full launch footing thinking it was the start of WW III – a electro-magnetic pulse attack to blind them from our full strike. Boris Yeltsin was asked to get ready to authorize a missile launch but he took a wait and see attitude. No matter what you may have believed, the Cuban cries never approached that level since the Soviet's NEVER considered launching even if the US fleet sank some of their ships. The danger on our side was mostly self fulfilling fear mongering on our part.
Linnaeus says:
@Punchy:
Which reminds me of something that I thought was funny. Back in 2003, I went down to the demonstration against the impending Iraq war and one of the protest signs there said, "Why worry? We've got duct tape". Gave me a chuckle.
Goblue72 says:
@Calouste: Bernie is going to endorse Clinton next week. And he's going to be easily re-elected Senator of Vermont.
You people are morons.
@Matt McIrvin: Missed your post; thanks and yes, that was what I was referring to.
@schrodinger's cat: It's really built up and commercial, why not Hatteras?
@scav: Now, if that had been South Carolina, then maybe no one would have been concern …
I live in an Urban Area.
Dallas is an Urban Area.
I see someone with a regular gun, let alone a RIFLE, and I'm calling 911.
How many law abiding citizens saw him with that rifle – before he got to the protest?
And, in NORMAL circumstances, not all, but most, would have done what I would have done – call 911.
BUT, because of Texas' Open Carry Law……the law abiding concerned citizen could do NOTHING.
Where's the NRA's Statement?
This was THEIR law.
After all, isn't it all we need are those who are armed to stop things like this?
WHO IS MORE ARMED THAN THE POLICE?
WHERE is the NRA's Statement?
trollhattan says:
Well this is helpful, Congressman Joe Walsh Tweeted a declaration of war to Obama. He sounds nice.
ETA former congressman, so really letting his freak flag fly now.
Jill Stein must really really hate Hillary
She wanted Hillary to be indicted so she would have to end her campaign. She must be incredibly disappointed at this point. What irritates me about Stein and other Greens is this idea that if only Americans knew them, they would vote for them. People do know, and they're not interested.
JanieM says:
@Lolis: That poem inspires me to link to this one: Lake and Maple, by Jane Hirshfield.
Heading away from the computer for a while now, as advised.
@Goblue72: Isn't it time for you to be heating up your lunchtime bowl of paste, Dwight?
ruemara says:
@donnah: you don't seem to understand why she streamed her boyfriend's murder. She needed witnesses ands a guarantee of sorts that she and her child wouldn't be killed too.
I'm loving how black men & women are killed, or die. Like it's a mystery how they're bleeding out, just ran into some bullets. But the cops are murdered. They were all murdered.
Lizzy L says:
@D58826: I want to take issue with one of your assertions: that no one in the 1960s accused the President of the U.S. of being a traitor. Not accurate. The radical left used that kind of language about LBJ, and believed it. I know because I was active in radical politics in Chicago in the 1960s, including 1968. Our contempt for the man was enormous. Remember "Hey hey LBJ; how many kids did you kill today?" I look back now at some of my beliefs and actions with deep regret. At the same time, I believe that without the huge level and range of protest, the war in Vietnam would have gone on and on and on, with even more death.
But I agree with those who say that we are not at the wrenching level of national violence we experienced in the 60s. That was the decade in which we assassinated a President (1963), a serious candidate for President who was also the murdered President's brother(1968) and two men who were among the most important grass-roots social leaders our country had: Malcolm X (1965) and Martin Luther King Jr. (1968.) We also killed many civil rights activists — though killings of black people for civil rights activism in the South had been going on for a long time. The Southern Poverty Law Center has a list, if you care to look at it. It was a hard time.
@Matt McIrvin: He was always going to come around. That half the BJ commentariat had the vapors for months over Sanders being mean to Hillary just shows what fricking amateurs the lot of you are.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: sucks being wrong all the time. But please proceed, fool.
🌷 Martin says:
So the suspect was killed with a remote controlled robot bomb. That's a drone that doesn't fly. I'm not criticizing the tactics the police used to protect themselves, but I wonder how many sheriffs in the country are wondering if they can get an explosive drone to take out a sniper in a parking structure or in some other relatively open space. This is hardly new ground for civilian law enforcement, but it's part of the incremental militarization of law enforcement which isn't helping. This is a pretty classic mutually assured destruction dynamic between law enforcement, sovereign-sympathetic citizens (which I would characterize the stereotypical modern NRA member to be), and at-risk populations from the former two groups including most or all women, minorities, LGBT, and so on.
The only way this improves is if all parties can simultaneously de-escalate, and that's a pretty tall order given the quality of debate around this topic.
@raven: Winter. Dates not yet finalized.
@Goblue72: You should know you phony motherfucker.
@schrodinger's cat: That's better for DC than summer but you know that. The beach could be tough that time of year but you could get lucky.
@schrodinger's cat: My understanding is that Myrtle Beach is a bit of a tourist trap (or more than a bit).
Nag's Head might be better, depending on what you're interested in. (I've never been there myself, but some former colleagues would go there every summer.)
@Gin & Tonic: ah. forgot the name of the 1983 scare. Didn't get much coverage at the time if I remember. I read about it a couple of years later. Certainly nothing like the Cuban missile crisis.
@Captain C: I thought Stein might be a bigger force this year than she was in the past couple of cycles, but her behavior now (going weirdly hard right on Hillary's emails, particularly) suggests to me that she'll fade the moment anyone actually listens to her. The bigger factor might be Gary Johnson getting "left" votes from the sort of Bernie fans who used to be Ron Paul-curious.
@I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Of all the museums, I used to love to hang out the Galleries of Art, the best. The concourse that joins the two galleries, had some good gelato. I have seen the Native American museum, they have a great gift shop too.
@Steeplejack: Yeah. I stopped looking at the comments because I choose to remain optimistic over the "slight" possibility that maybe, a real discussion about race could be had in this country.
Kropadope says:
@The Dangerman:
It's almost as though a gun isn't a magic totem that can prevent people from getting shot. Almost…
@schrodinger's cat: When? DC in the summer is a bitch. Spring/fall is great.
ETA: Sorry for being so far behind in the comments. Gotta drop out now anyway. Later!
@I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Nag's Head is a zoo too, you need to go further south on the Outer Banks.
@Betty Cracker: Which has been apparent would eventually happen to anyone paying attention the entire campaign.
That the peanut gallery here got the vapors over the paranoid fantasy that Sanders would go rogue or that his slow pivot was going to hurt Clinton just says a lot more about the BJ amateur hour than it does about Sanders.
@jeffreyw: SQUIRREL!
Pancho the boy kitty was driving me crazy this morning climbing on the desk and demanding attention. He's settled on his big poofy pillow now. Lefty has been sitting very quietly on my lap. Each of them in their own way, I am sure, responding to some distress signal coming from yours truly.
I heart Office Kitties.
@🌷 Martin:
It's going to change the calculus of how they've used in the future, as they've not to my knowledge been weaponized before. Next time some department sends one in with a cell phone during a hostage situation, what's the response?
@Goblue72: Oh look, it's Mr. Off the Pigs, Esq.
@Face: He's black. Multiple photos of the guy have been released.
Also, fuck Joe Walsh and the horse he rode in on. (Not Helping, asshole.) I hope he gets a visit from the Secret Service.
@raven: Husband kitteh signed on to some promotion and those were the two choices.
Raven Onthill says:
@D58826: And Nixon, abetted by Kissinger, actually committed treasonous acts. Other than that, yes, I agree. Also, the Democratic Party was much more powerful then, and willing to act on grievances.
Meantime, the day before the shooting, I wrote a post titled: "Brexit: Are We Without the Peace? – Unraveling, Coming Together, and Reaction." I think I am going to hide in a corner and make soft chirping sounds.
Bernie is going to endorse Clinton next week.
Im always stymied when politicians do this. When its obvious what they're going to say, similar to suspending their campaign. The announcement is always a week or a few days away or whatever. For heavens sake, if you've got something to say, just say it. Why the wait?
the shooter was former military.
@Lizzy L:
Our contempt for the man was enormous.
When I wrote the post I was thinking of the anti-war movement but contempt is not the same thing as saying LBJ was a communist or working for Moscow. The Birchers were accusing Eisenhower of being a fellow traveler. And over the past few months McCain and others have accused Obama of being sympathetic to DAESH or working to destroy the US, etc.
@raven: How cold does it get in South Carolina in the winter.
@schrodinger's cat: You don't fish do you?
@Matt McIrvin:
Suspect you're summing things up accurately. Johnson will harvest more Bernie voters became they would never have voted for a Democrat &/or a Clinton.
@Goblue72: You had paste for breakfast, Dwight?
Darkrose says:
I haven't slept tonight. I've been spamming text votes for Brandon Belt–my favorite Giant–to get to the All-Star Game, and I've played a lot of Final Fantasy XIV where the fact that my character has brown skin is less relevant in-game than the fact that he has horns, scales and a tail. I'm trying to look forward to the River Cats game tonight after I work on this week's assignment and trying not to think about how I've become nervous about driving alone. I just…can't. It's been too much for a while, but this just…
I feel so fucking helpless.
Marjowil says:
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I miss Raylan Givens.
@schrodinger's cat: It's just hard to say, it can be really nice ar nasty. Here's the averages
@raven: I eat fish! I have been on a lobster boat and a fishing trawler, I was a passenger though.
@rikyrah: Source, please?
@Betty Cracker: good god, our keyboard revolutionary is even more deluded, and pathetic, than I gave him credit for.
@Marjowil: I miss Mags Bennett, Arlo, Boyd, the whole gang. Apparently people hated Ava but I mostly liked her.
Per Dallas PD: Shooter lived with his mother in Mesquite, TX, had no criminal record or ties to any terrorist org.
Dmbeaster says:
The only real difference between the Dallas shooting and the Nevada Bundy incident is that the Dallas sniper pulled the trigger.
And right wingers thought the Kent State massacre was just fine. Shootings dont bother them, only the target.
@Betty Cracker: I'm not specifically upset about it. Not in the sense that it's any worse than the countless more lives previously lost to police brutality. This was going to happen at some point. This is just blowback. No different than when U.S. military adventurism abroad results in terrorism at home. You can only oppress for so long before the oppressed rage back.
The bullets have been flying in one direction for far too long with absolutely nothing done about it. Police departments and police unions across the country have blood on their hands today.
@Mike in NC: Photos! Videos! How nice.
@schrodinger's cat: You are also close to both Wilmington and Charleston and , especially Charleston, are great tourista cities.
@Raven Onthill:
And Nixon, abetted by Kissinger, actually committed treasonous acts.
True but no one, or at least no major opinion leaders, newspapers, TV networks, political leaders, were saying that out loud or accusing them working for or being sympathetic to the enemy of the time. Those kinds of accusations always came from fringe groups so that they were dismissed as 'oh yea its the communist party newspaper'.
John Gregory @abc7johngregory 11m11 minutes ago
@ABC The Army confirms Micah Xavier Johnson served in the Army reserve as recently as 2015.
@Shell: I actually know some of the 'why' in that. It's actually pretty hard to get a press conference together. So it takes a little time. But if you don't announce what it's for, believe it or not the news will try and 'scoop' each other and you lose control of the message. So you announce the 'why' so it's not a "WILL HE OR WON'T HE ENDORSE!!!1!!1" for a week, and then when the events happen you get the proper headlines like 'Sanders praises Clinton's plan on X calls for party to oppose Trump' or whatever he says in the speech.
We have a PR person here in the office, I really would never want that job…
liberal says:
@gvg:
Nuclear was most definately a threat most of the time.
"Threat" doesn't do it justice. From what I've read everything almost ended in 1983, but for the judgement of one hero, for example.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist:
Un.Real. She should be fired for stupidity.
@Technocrat: The Green Party self-removed themselves from the conversation in 2000.
@D58826: George HW Bush was pretty clearly guilty– and IANAL but I think by anyone's standards would have been indicted–of perjury in the Iran-Contra affair, and pardoned Weinberger to get himself off the hook. But all anyone knows today is he's the dear old gentleman who used to jump out of airplanes and would have stopped his son from the Iraq unpleasantness if he could have.
burnspbesq says:
@FlipYrWhig:
he's not insane.
I'm a bit less certain of that than you are.
@schrodinger's cat: If you want to be sure it will be warm, you probably have to go much farther south (Key West?). I went to a conference at Daytona, FL in January and it was quite cold (the temperature wasn't objectively horrible (highs in the upper 40s, low 50s), but coupled with the humidity it wasn't pleasant to be outside).
Good luck with your choice!
@Goblue72: Is there a way in which you think that comment is a.) helpful or b.) correct.
Most police are people who go to work, just like us. I coach little league with a policeman. He's a nice guy. His union negotiates the working conditions that he works under, and defends him from job actions. None of them pulled a trigger on a single person yesterday.
@rikyrah:
Do we know anything about the three in custody? I haven't heard whether they still think there were multiple shooters or just the one.
One of the murdered cops was an Iraq vet.
Not a single good thing will come from this.
I was born in 1957 so I was a kid in 1968. Probably too young to really appreciate the chaos. I barely knew who MLK was when I saw the news bulletin on TV that he was dead, and I so also remember Robert Kennedy's death in the newspaper. For us it was 1967 because I remember the Detroit riots. We lived in Detroit but not close to the actual riots, but I remember my parents showing me how the sky was glowing orange where the stuff was happening, and I remember asking if it was going to come closer. They told me it was far enough away that we were safe. Afterward we drove around the areas where the riots happened to see all the burned out buildings, and it was sobering. Yet also, removed from us.
I don't think this feels worse than 9-11 and all the visceral and emotional reactions to that, followed by our govt totally going crazy with fear and OMG ANTHRAX. There are a couple of things I do tell myself, though, that apply to these times we find ourselves in:
* Things have to be exposed before they can be dealt with and cleared.
* Bad things/crazy people/whatever: they get louder as they are losing power.
* Things are better, so much better now for women, gays, and yes, blacks, but sometimes it doesn't feel that way. We are on the right track to getting things right.
* Old white bigots got to die sometime. (btw I am white)
a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q) says:
@Steep – the image of 2 kids riding bikes like mad on a road parallel to the peloton is delightful, even without having seen it. Thanks.
@Miss Bianca: Please pet Pancho and Lefty for me. kthxbai.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: Yep but the democrats didn't push it beyond an investigation. They didn't want to try and impeach another republican president and especially one as popular as Reagan still was.
@Goblue72:
It took Bernie some three and a half months to come around to accepting that the nomination was out of his reach — from the Ides of March, when Hillary really began pulling away, to last week, a fortnight past the end of the primary season. Just a few days ago, he was insisting he was going all the way to the convention.
As for the claim that he's pulled her to the left, there was never really that much ideological ground between them to be made up. She's been more or less as liberal as he for decades. All he's really achieved by waiting this long to endorse her, while the majority of his supporters came around and supported her, is fritter away his leverage.
@Cermet: Johnson
Edward Marshall says:
Whoa! They BIP'd him with the EOD robot!!!
Please. They're far too busy counting money from the merchants of death for promotional services rendered.
@liberal:
Reagan sure took the incident seriously the following year.
@Edward Marshall: It's helpful that he died on scene, we'll never get to hear his justification for his actions.
I've seen corpses get blown in place when they were suspected of being rigged with explosives. I don't *think* anyone has ever done a blow in place with a live human. They must have had it just drop the charge at his feet and blow him the fuck up!
He must have thought the Daleks came for him!
White male hegemony is under threat as never before. I'm totally ok with that. Many white guys are not. It's likely to get ugly for a while, but the actuarial tables are on the side of progress.
@Villago Delenda Est:
Hell, they're in anguish over the possible fate of the murderer's rifle. What if it's never free again?
dogwood says:
I'm not sure in the case of Stein that many people actually listen to her. She's got some devoted followers, but I'd bet a significant chunk of votes she's received in the past and will receive in this election will come from people who know little about her and couldn't pick her out in a line-up. Lots of people who are disgusted with the system cast protest votes.
@Immanentize: Clearly, she has top notch political instincts.
@Humboldtblue:
You misspelled wise.
@liberal: Very interesting – yes, a hero that few wll ever know of but maybe, all of us owe. Not unlike the man who destroyed the heavy water works and prevented the Germans from any realistic chance to develop an atomic bomb.
@Amir Khalid: By being as stubborn as he was, Sanders got some real concessions on the Democratic Party platform, and from where I sit, the things that got in were positive changes. Party platforms don't count for much, I suppose, but I give him credit for that.
That said, his behavior in the endgame was not normal for a defeated Democratic primary candidate, and I think some concern about what he was going to do was justified.
@raven: Good post and thanks
@dogwood: There's also a history of people saying they're going to support third-party candidates out of general disgruntlement until late in the general-election campaign, when they come around. (Election-eve polls actually report third-party candidates' level of support pretty accurately, but they tend to fade before that.)
That's some sociopathic shit right there.
@Technocrat: He's a fucking phony ass, loud mouth punk who would wet his pants if a firecracker went off near him.
Bobby Thomson says:
@negative 1: would you knock it off with the "racists wouldn't be racist if we didn't call them racists" bullshit?
@Amir Khalid:
Your comments about Bernie's squandering of his leverage echo this article's premise. My favorite line: "He can't figure out how to lose". This is an insightful take on Bernie's party of one baked in ineffectiveness.
@raven: We can also go in spring. Looking at the temperatures, April seems like a good idea. Thanks for your suggestions and info.
going weirdly hard right on Hillary's emails
Yeah, this seems to have happened to a number of die-hards; one close to me posted a National Review article on why Hillary really should have been indicted onto Facebook. People who loudly and vehemently claim to be fully 100% against the National Security State, then turn around and demand its strict enforcement when it suits them, make me wonder if they mistake self-righteousness and -absorption for morality.
hovercraft says:
@Calouste: I doubt he's dumb enough to agree to that. If he ran on the Green party line after being allowed to run as a democrat, even if she won anyway he would be dead in the senate. He would not be given any chairmanships and they would take away his seniority.
@schrodinger's cat: I think that would be way better, very pretty and few bugs!
@schrodinger's cat:
Speaking of lobstah, are you still coming up to Maine? I've been so busy I haven't looked at what events are coming up.
@I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Thanks for all the help. Thinking of April instead. Since I may have to go to India in December.
@trollhattan: Gary Johnson can make a play for the Greenwald fans–people who mostly care about the US having a noninterventionist foreign policy and stopping spying and drones, have little regard for any other part of a liberal agenda, and may even be actively hostile to "identity politics". These people make more noise than they have numbers, but they also tend to have money; a lot of white tech geekboys who self-identify as liberal or leftist lean in this direction.
@Betty Cracker: So when s/he posted this did s/he go out that night with a gun, or was this more cosplay revolution?
@schrodinger's cat: Go for the cherry trees blossoming! The trees were a gift from the Japanese, I think the 100 year anniversary was recent. Also, tons of stuff to do inside in DC if the weather is bad. Not true in Myrtle Beach, except outlet malls. Also, in the spring, the ocean has not warmed up enough to go in.
@MomSense: I didn't come in June as I had planned. Thinking of a fall trip instead, mid September.
@Captain C:
People who loudly and vehemently claim to be fully 100% against the National Security State, then turn around and demand its strict enforcement when it suits them, make me wonder if they mistake self-righteousness and -absorption for morality.
Those are people who mostly just hate Hillary Clinton and, on the fly, are willing to retrofit their politics accordingly. Which is a pretty solid chunk of the Sanders campaign. Which is why people who insist on seeing the Sanders campaign as a harbinger of increasing populist liberalism are nucking futs.
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Nice! Hell, I am behind, but I aint that far behind, I expect an AARP solicitation soon.
@raven: In other words, a cosplay revolutionary; a Fritz the Cat who's happy to have other people suffer the consequences of his/her rhetoric.
(Can't remember who recommended/mentioned that movie to me, here, a couple weeks ago, but I went and saw it and it's great! Thanks!)
@raven: Also the kind of guy who would start a fight and then offer to hold his friend's coat, or screech touch me and I will sue. Well, you are right pee would probably run down his leg.
Um weird, there was a comment with my nym (reply to Raven) that I didn't write about the NY Times. And now it seems to be gone? Am I imagining things?
@Captain C: Goblue is the radicalest radical that ever radicaled. Also very in tune with the youth of today.
@Bobby Thomson:
Seriously – anyone who thinks that racists will be better people if they're just given the time and space by ignoring the one thing that motivates and animates them needs to question their assumptions about well, everything.
@a hip hop artist from Idaho (fka Bella Q): So noted, my dear. Hope you are (relatively) well!
September is the nicest time to be in Maine. Ok, we'll have to meet up then. I don't think my job search in Mass is going anywhere so I should be here.
Felonius Monk says:
This is rather interesting:
What distinguished Frank, Miller, and Waxman, however, was their willingness and ability to marry idealism with pragmatism, to claim partial victories that, over time, led to historic changes. They didn't wait for a revolution. In fact, during Reagan's presidency, as dark a period for liberalism as any in recent memory, Waxman struck a series of deals to expand Medicaid coverage—an oft-stated goal in the Sanders litany. And though all three legislators are now retired, their influence lives on in generations of former staffers who fanned out across Capitol Hill and into the Obama administration. Sanders' most prominent ex-staffer, his campaign manager, Jeff Weaver, runs a comic book store in Virginia.
The priority was to get the downtown back in business, the clod hard truth is that they could have waited him out but when you look at what it will cost the city in both overtime and lost revenue, money won out. I think hope that if it was simply an individual holed up who had not killed anyone they could have waited. But since he had allegedly already killed five they couldn't risk it.
"people are hypocrites" is probably one of the enduring truisms of the human condition. 800,000 years ago there were probably Anti-Fire protohumans secretly cooking in their caves.
@FlipYrWhig: There's a few people out there for whom sticking it to the man (or being seen as sticking it to the man) is more important than improving real lives of others. The same people who apparently don't understand that sometimes the enemy of your enemy is even worse than your original enemy. Or, as per the Seventy Maxims of Maximally Effective Mercenaries, "The enemy of my enemy is my enemy's enemy. No more. No less"
@Technocrat: Very true. Still, sometimes the degree is so much you wonder if they have whiplash afterwards, from reversing their position so hard.
Source, please?
Right Here.
That's a bad day, the day that happens.
@schrodinger's cat: As raven said, that's a good choice! If you go back to India then, please post pictures.
@Captain C: @FlipYrWhig: There's a few people out there for whom sticking it to the man (or being seen as sticking it to the man) is more important than improving real lives of others
and a few of those, like this one, who are "Let's you and them fight" Revolutionaries.
Haydnseek says:
@schrodinger's cat: Colder than a racists heart during a black lives matter rally in Charleston.
@Felonius Monk:
That was a club to Bernie's thick head. I don't know how you can read that article and not understand that incrementalism is the only way forward, since the beginning of the Republic. The Founding Fathers basically guaranteed the foreclosure of two things – dictatorships and revolutions. I guess when you're a backbenching purity scold in a safe seat with no friends or allies, you don't have to listen to or learn anything from anybody.
WarMunchkin says:
What we need in the United States is not division; what we need in the United States is not hatred; what we need in the United States is not violence and lawlessness, but is love, and wisdom, and compassion toward one another, and a feeling of justice toward those who still suffer within our country, whether they be white or whether they be black.
…And let's dedicate ourselves to what the Greeks wrote so many years ago: to tame the savageness of man and make gentle the life of this world.
Speaking of the '60s.
@FlipYrWhig: Remember, most people who supported Sanders through the early primary period don't even sound like Sanders supporters any more, since they recognize that Clinton has the nomination sewn up and were always OK with supporting her; they just preferred Sanders' ideological positions. The dead-enders currently fantasizing about a Clinton indictment on Facebook are not representative.
LanceThruster says:
Helter Skelter.
@burnspbesq: Most of them are terrified that they'll actually have to exhibit some merit to retain their privileged status.
Because they know they're incompetent losers, utterly unworthy of any privilege at all.
chopper says:
naw, sore loser laws would keep st. bernard off the ticket in a whole buncha states. no go.
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: wow. pretty efficently brutal takedown, that article.
@the Conster, la Citoyenne:
you don't have to listen to or learn anything from anybody.
This is Bern-essence.
To be fair, I think we do sometimes go overboard with the "white people are/do/think X" thing. I know some liberal-ass white people, and some stone cold racists. One of the coolest white guys I've ever met had never seen a black person in real life until he met me.
Racists are gonna racist tho, that is indisputable.
I'm starting to think the dude's anger at BLM was because they are not confrontational enough.
@hovercraft:
I think hope that if it was simply an individual holed up who had not killed anyone they could have waited. But since he had allegedly already killed five they couldn't risk it.
That may have been the rationale, but it doesn't make much sense to me. If it was so important that he be "neutralized" quickly, why did they negotiate with him at all? It's Ok to negotiate with him for, say, 3 hours, but not 4 hours? It's Ok to negotiate with him after he's shot and killed multiple people but not after he's fired again at them?
What would they have done if they didn't happen to have a handy robot that they could strap a bomb to?
I don't get it.
Whatever the rationale, and whatever the final findings are, it's clear to me (again) that police need better non-lethal ways to disable people. Maybe the Active Denial System is an example of something that might eventually work. I like the idea of "guns" that shoot nets, too. Our current mania that we need to poke holes in people with fast pieces of lead is so barbaric. We have to find ways to stop people without killing them, because the bad guys find ways to use those same weapons too…
We need to learn from this horrible event. And "police need to be in body armor all the time" isn't the right lesson, IMHO.
@Miss Bianca:
A few years ago, a work friend of mine lost her two older kitties to old age. A couple of weeks later, she opened their back door and there were three kittens sitting there like, We can haz new home now?
I teased her by saying the Kitten Fairy was looking for a good spot to leave them and decided that she and her husband would be a good family.
It really does explain his inability to put the car he caught in park. I have to LOL at Barney Frank just being completely done with Bernie fucking Sanders.
@chopper: I think sore-loser laws in most states don't apply to presidential candidates; there are only a couple of exceptions (Texas is one).
It's moot, anyway; Jill Stein is just blowing smoke now that Bernie has cut a deal with Hillary. This is the shiny counteroffer you don't take.
@Villago Delenda Est: I think they remember what their kind did to others when they were in charge. That's what scares them, that they will be treated, like they treated others.
@Jim, Foolish Literalist: I actually encountered a few young fools like that at a rooftop party once; overheard one of them declaiming on how, as Revolutionaries, their job was to con other people into risking their necks for said revolutionaries' ideals. (No, they didn't use quite those words.)
ETA: On the other hand, I'm pretty sure those particular individuals couldn't make a salad if you spotted them the lettuce, tomatoes, and dressing.
@I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Fuck some body armor or helmets. None of that shit protects someone 100%.
@Technocrat:
There are many flavors of racism. The liberal flavor is in some ways more troubling to me – a kind of self-satisfied tut tutting paternalism that I get whiffs of all the time from people I otherwise respect.
Right. But the problem with drones is really an economic one. They lower the marginal cost to kill somebody. What previously was expensive in terms of training, equipment, time, risk to innocents, and so on suddenly gets WAY cheaper when you can roll or fly one in for a few hundred or thousand dollars.
The problem with lowering the marginal cost is that it almost always comes with lowering the social cost in the process. You go from using it on guys who are killing police to people who are threatening to kill police to people who are threatening civilians to drug dealers, and so on. We saw that same progression with non-lethal weapons. They didn't substitute for shooting people, instead they drove down the social cost of tasing someone for simple misdemeanors – extending the use of weaponry rather than making it safer. It's had exactly the opposite effect as intended, and I think this will as well. It won't just make it safer to take out someone like this shooter, but also cheaper (in social terms) to kill someone who is simply too difficult to track down.
Yeah, I hear that. You see it a lot in the erasure of racism as a root cause. I remember a particularly odious Greenwald piece where he claimed people were falsely attributing Brexit's "Leave" vote to racism. How do you look at a billboard full of brown people and think "yep, that's an economic argument"?
Brachiator says:
@LAO: The Redstate post was very interesting. Thanks for the link.
I was listening to the radio the other day, host reaction to the shootings in Louisiana and Minnesota. On one show, the host, when asked, said that he had never been stopped because of a broken tail light. This host is white.
Later, on another show, the black host spoke about the first time a cop pointed a gun at his head. He was 12 and sitting in a car waiting for his mother in the mainly white city of Torrance CA. There had been a report of a bank robbery in the area and, by definition, a black kid was out of place and assumed to be a suspicious character.
@bemused:
One of them is a sensible guy who thinks there are too many goddamned guns that are making his job harder, but who also has an emotional reaction to stories of cops being killed. The other two are looney tunes (and one of them is a blood relative, sadly).
Not getting out of the boat. Not today.
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: I'm sorry that I don't just blanket hate a group of people based on the actions of some of them. No I'm not changing that policy.
NRA Non statement we were all expecting:
"On behalf of the more than five million members of the National Rifle Association, and especially on behalf of our members from the law enforcement community, I want to express the deep anguish all of us feel for the heroic Dallas law enforcement officers who were killed and wounded, as well as those who bravely ran toward danger to defend the people and city of Dallas.
With heavy hearts, NRA members honor their heroism and offer our deepest condolences to all of their families."
I remember a particularly odious Greenwald piece where he claimed people were falsely attributing Brexit's "Leave" vote to racism. How do you look at a billboard full of brown people and think "yep, that's an economic argument"?
St. Glenn of Copacabana has his own history of denouncing the invading brown menace in the US of A, that he gets awfully prickly about when you mention it.
Rikyrah has a great comment in the thread below about how the NRA made those poor cops into sitting ducks by pushing open carry.
ETA: Whoops, hadn't read through the whole thread here. Basically, what she said again at 176.
@Mnemosyne: KITTEN FAIRY!! : )
Y'all would not believe the squee level I am witnessing right now, with the two kittehs snuggled on their big pillow. It is approaching serious sweetness overdose.
@eclare: Will be driving to Myrtle beach, so may be will stop in DC along the way, catch up with friends.
I will admit it freaks me out that this dude was killed by a drone. We're using guided munitions in American cities now.
@I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: That may have been the rationale, but it doesn't make much sense to me. If it was so important that he be "neutralized" quickly, why did they negotiate with him at all? It's Ok to negotiate with him for, say, 3 hours, but not 4 hours? It's Ok to negotiate with him after he's shot and killed multiple people but not after he's fired again at them?
The dude is holed up in the parking garage and there was (apparently) no way they could get close to him without taking tons of fire (i.e. 'getting kilt'). (He's in a parking garage which means lots of thick concrete to stop shots from police counter-snipers.) They were on the phone with the guy multiple times and he was ranting about wanting to kill cops, specifically white cops, and wanting to kill MORE cops and also he had left a shitload of bombs laying around. (They went after some suspicious packages but apparently none of them were explosive.)
After a couple of hours they gave up and sent in the robot. Guy ranting like a loon about killing cops after having shot a ton of cops is probably not going to be getting a lot of consideration. Me, I think that demonstrated considerable patience waiting that long, since he was obviously keen to die and take as many cops as possible with him.
Not much you can do with that.
['Except give him what he was looking for.']
@max:
If you can get an explosive robot next to a dude, I figure you have a strong negotiating position.
I'm sorry that I don't just blanket hate a group of people based on the actions of some of them. No I'm not changing that policy.
You haven't been asked to – you're being asked to acknowledge the reason why a group of people blanket hate another group of people.
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Yes this. It puts me in mind of this, which I think is just to the point:
If you have a critique for the resistance, for our resistance, then you better have an established record of critique of our oppression.
— Jessie Williams
Now Neg1 might have such a record, but I don't remember it so shiny.
I don't think it's a coincidence that even Radley Balko says that the Dallas PD has been working really hard to transform themselves and has done a good job of forming better ties with the community, and they're the ones who were hit with this. Some people prefer there to be antagonism between police and citizens and will try to disrupt any attempt to fix the problem.
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: Good, but overly long, article about Bernie's slide into irrelevance.
He coulda been a contender, instead of a bum, which is what he is.
@Mnemosyne: Which is great except for the fact that he has no fucking knowledge of how the guy got where he was and how he got the weapons there. The guy in Orlando got all that shit IN a club without any "open carry laws".
@Immanentize: Why what did I do?
@the Conster, la Citoyenne: If you don't think calling it a white male freakout is a negative statement directed at a group, then I apologize for misconstruing it.
Paul in KY says:
@LAO: 1st time I've ever knowingly gone to RedState. Good points in that article.
japa21 says:
@raven: I may have missed other comments about this in the threads, but almost all I see is that he is angry at white people and cops. But the police chief clearly said he was also upset at BLM. Of course, if that were made a big deal of, a lot of people would lose their talking points.
Steeplejack (phone) says:
@Quinerly:
Your messages are going into moderation because you are using naked URLs, which WordPress (temporarily, on this site) doesn't like. Use the "link" button above the comment box to dress up your URL with some explanatory text.
@Lizzy L: Nation of Islam (Elijah Muhammed & his inner council) killed Malcolm X.
@I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Emerald Isle, NC is very nice.
Just saw this on "Outside the Beltway." http://www.outsidethebeltway.c.....-year-low/
Considering we have 320 million people in this country, with at least just as many guns, and even if only 1 in 10,000 is a complete asshole, that is pretty remarkable.
With the our rightwing brethren having a chortle fest of glee about the shootings in Dallas last night, since it allows them to indulge vicious verbal aggression about the President, Liberals, and Blacks, I am surprise they are not blaming him for this event that occurred in Texas almost 50 years ago when Charles Whitman climbed the Tower. (The President was about 5 years old at the time). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman
Of course, when the perpetrator is white, he is always just a lone nut. (Whitman might have actually not been responsible for his actions since an autopsy found he had an undiagnosed aggressive brain tumor and both family and doctors had noted an extreme change in his personality in the year before he climbed the Tower.) But when a Black person, or Hispanic person, or Muslim acts goes nuts, it is the collective responsibility of the group. Funny how that works.
Our hero in Dallas managed to get the cop shooting Black men off the front page and give Trump a chance to feed his base.
Some people prefer there to be antagonism between police and citizens and will try to disrupt any attempt to fix the problem.
This might count as an example.
The Toronto chapter of Black Lives Matter says it won't back down from a list of demands that include a ban on police floats from the city's annual Pride parade….
Walcott said police floats are symbols of oppression that have no place in the parade, which has been political since its conception.
I understand the frustration, but think that the strategy here is counterproductive.
@japa21: And we would instead be forced to talk about an angry murderer rather than engage in good old-fashioned tribal warfare. The horror.
Corner Stone says:
@max: This is a bunch of shit logic. Same false justification I've heard time and again.
@raven:
Rikyrah is a she.
And if you don't think the fact that some of the protesters in Dallas were open carrying helped facilitate this crime, I don't know how to help you.
@negative 1: I think you might have misconstrued — I did not take Conster's original comment as essentializing all white folks, but rather describing the very real white (mostly male) panic that is prevalent in the Trump base. That is why Conster is asking you to consider why a very large group of older white men (but not every one who is a white guy!) are so overtly racist and willing to wave off black deaths while they elevate the deaths of white victims to very high values. Both have the same root, I suspect.
So, presume Conster's good faith and listen to the warnings about that crowd. Black people are essentialized as a matter culture while White people demand each to be treated as individuals. It's a hard unbalanced truth.
Or, that's what I think.
@Paul in KY: Only in the sense that Henry II killed Becket: "W
ill no one rid me of the turbulent priest." https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20100323/manhattan/malcolm-x-killer-thomas-hagan-says-hes-sorry-blames-crime-on-lack-of-education
@Brachiator:
Totally different topic: did that big Alexander Hamilton announcement by that self-published author ever pan out?
That half the BJ commentariat had the vapors for months over Sanders being mean to Hillary just shows what fricking amateurs the lot of you are.
And you are a professional?
References, please.
On one show, the host, when asked, said that he had never been stopped because of a broken tail light. This host is white.
I have been stopped because of a broken tail light. Because I'm a white boy, I got off with a gentle reminder.
@I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: He wasn't going to surrender & I guess they were afraid he might off one more of them. Can't say I blame them (the police).
@LAO: That piece showed way too much insight to be the work of a conservative, I say!
@Another Holocene Human: LOL! Agreed. I almost fell out of my chair after reading it. I am hoping it gets some attention on the right.
@debbie: That is fucking sick shit right there. Shut up, Glenn Beck.
@Mnemosyne: No. It was just minor noise over the tomcat anecdote.
Newton and fellow Hamilton researcher Stephen Knott both say they haven't found evidence of Adams spreading the tale and instead trace the story to a satirical letter from someone described as a British captain republished 56 years after Hamilton's death.
Newton says that what apparently started as a joke about Martha Washington naming her cat after Hamilton "in a complimentary way" morphed through the years to biographies stating she named her tomcat after him to comment on his reputation.
@Immanentize: You're probably right. Here's my argument — "Black people are essentialized as a matter culture while White people demand each to be treated as individuals." Very true, but wouldn't the better answer to that unfairness be to treat Black people as individuals rather than essentialize White people as a matter culture?
01jack says:
did that big Alexander Hamilton announcement by that self-published author ever pan out?
I found this.
Ridnik Chrome says:
Now imagine, for a minute, that your parents instead grew up as black people in the 50s or 60s in one of the many areas where police were often the agents of – let's call it what it was – white oppression.
I'm amazed to read those words on Red State. Good on them for publishing this. Maybe the tide is turning.
@Technocrat: Ah, you see, it's a 'macro-economic' argument. Those 'brown' people are gobbling up the jobs that the good white yobbos of Upper Snidelington would otherwise be doing. Thus it is 'economic'!
@Paul in KY: I wasn't there, and the people who were there obviously came to a different conclusion.
Maybe they had no choice in this case. I dunno.
But I want us to think about ways so that they do have a choice in the future.
E.g. He's holed-up behind concrete pilings? Move in portable barricades on robots.
He claims to have bombs? Bring in disruptors.
Direct microwaves at him to make him feel like his skin is burning without killing him.
Keep people out of the area, try to talk him down, but don't let him sleep. People have to sleep…
Yeah, there are problems with all of these things. But blowing people up doesn't seem to be a problem-free approach either. I remember MOVE…
It'll be interesting to see what lessons are learned and what new tactics and approaches are used in the future. I hope they move toward a less-militarized, a less-lethal response. Even in Dallas, who seem to be doing many things right, the Chief was talking about body armor and so forth. That's not going to defuse the situation and will likely make things worse…
My $0.02.
("Just because someone says they want to kill and even want to die doesn't mean that the police's response should be determined by that. People say lots of stupid stuff.")
@I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet:
I don't disagree with you, we live in a society where guns and other lethal weapons are too often the first resort. The cynic in me thinks that they were like fuck it we need to end this now. The last presser I saw last night I think around 2.30 am the chief of police said he had asked for his team for options to end it, and he would be making the call after the presser. Again I think it comes down to money and placing the lives of their officers first. They wanted to get him out of there as quickly as possible, maybe they felt after 3 hours they were making no progress. The location of the parking lot in a downtown area would mean cordoning off a large area, and I think most people would not feel safe in the city knowing he was still out there. I'm torn because I'll be the first to admit police are too risk adverse in a profession that is by it's very nature risky, too often they shoot first and ask questions later. But this to me is a different thing altogether, he wasn't contained where they could wait him out while every ones lives more or less went on like say those idiots at the wild life refuge. I don't know what the right answer is because in this case he was actually armed and dangerous so I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. Do I think they were itching for the chance to kill him, probably, but in this case when they say they were in fear for the lives of the police and the public, it may actually be true. Murdering people because they are big scary black men or women who scare you, throw the book at them.
@Mnemosyne: Like I need your help. He or she the comment was that the guy carried the weapon(s) openly to where he did the killings and I am telling you that no fucking body has any idea how the weapon were transported. Don't hand me that condescending bullshit.
@I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Like I said above this one falls into a grey area for me, I'm not saying you are wrong or I'm right. There are a lot of moral questions raised by how this ended, I think it's healthy for us to have this discussion. Talking about what type of society we want to live in is a good thing a good people can disagree.
Oh, okay, I thought that was already known. The other letters they've found sound pretty cool, though.
@hovercraft: Killing a dude who is armed, killed other cops and is shooting at you isn't murder.
Whatever, dude. Go take a break before you pop a blood vessel.
@Matt McIrvin: I once got pulled over, in AZ, for doing 87 in a 75. I got off with a warning. I think the reasons why were, in no particular order, I demonstrated to the cop that I was in full control of my vehicle before he actually pulled me over, I was very polite and respectful during the stop, and I was (and am) quite white.
@Mnemosyne: Yea, tell me about it. Run off your mouth with some bullshit and then tell me to chill.
@raven: I believe the DPD chief said the shooter's mother's SUV was recovered in the parking garage, so maybe open carry didn't factor into it at all. But it will be interesting to see how cops treat open carry at protests going forward. I don't think open carry states will go so far as to repeal their bug-fuck crazy gun laws, but maybe they'll restrict them in certain situations, like protests. They sure as hell restricted basic public movement in Tampa during the RNC a few years back.
The murder I was referring to is LA and MN, sorry if I wasn't clear about it. I was actually making the point to Scott that I'm okay with how it ended, could it have been handled differently with the shooter still alive, sure but I 'm not complaining that he 's dead.
@Betty Cracker:
I doubt they'll even go that far. They have no problem restricting open and concealed carry wherever they are going to be while allowing the rest of us to be sitting ducks. Capitol hill, the conventions, courts, are all gun free zones but we're supposed to comfortable with people in bars carrying guns. This was a hard fought victory for the NRA, they are not going to let this get in the way. More guns for everyone.
@hovercraft: Well said.
@I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: I would want to take him alive, if only to see him executed after a fair trial, etc. etc.
However, they felt (I'm guessing) that the longer this went on, the longer he might have to plot some more deviltry before his end. I think they knew it was a won't-be-taken-alive situation, so he's gonna die somehow, so let's get him in this safer-to-cops manner.
Scary though that they can now do that. Wonder what the guy was thinking when it rolled up? Did he think it only had cameras?
jackmac says:
@Seth Owen: Having also lived through 1968, this has the same feel as the country goes off the rails. It's not as bad as 1968 — yet. But I fear the worst is yet to come.
@Betty Cracker: My point was that no one knows how they got there and to write some bullshit as if they do is just so much balloon juice.
@Paul in KY: The dude engaged in a firefight for how long? He thought he was going to die and he did.
@raven: That's why I am not agin using the bomb thing, in this particular situation.
@Paul in KY: I would want him taken alive, too, if possible. But for different reasons.
1) To find out why and how he decided to do what he did. Whether he had "helpers". Whether he had friends/compatriots with similar views. To try to nip the disease so that it doesn't continue to grow.
2) To reinforce the proposition that police aren't executioners and that they will do their best to end violence without committing violence themselves, if possible.
Sometimes deadly force is necessary, and maybe it was necessary in this case. I don't know.
I'm against the death penalty. I think a better example and deterrent is locking someone up for life rather than execution. (Who thinks about Gary Gilmore any more, vs those who remember Charles Manson?).
@jackmac: Well the right is certainly doing it's level best to make the situation worse. Limpdick is call BLM a terrorist organization. One of 'old little hands' campaign managers is blaming Obama. The ever reliable Alex Jones is claiming that it was a false flag operation by George Soros to cover up the installation of communism or something. Faux news is whipping up the Obama did it meme. And the Lt. Governor of Texas is claiming the protesters are hypocrites because they wanted the police to protect them. The Oath Keepers are calling on all citizens to be armed at all times and to form militia groups in every town and village.
This could spin off the rails very quickly.
@Paul in KY: I'm not sure I like the fact that the police department even had that thing. It's military hardware, basically.
No one is saying they know for sure how the killers got to their positions. We're pointing out that if you have a rifle and you're planning to shoot people, it's a lot easier to go unobserved if you're moving with a group of other people who also have rifles. Why is that making you fly off the handle?
@jackmac: What it reminds me of is more the spin up to the domestic terrorism wave of the mid-1990s: Oklahoma City, Centennial Olympic Park, all those abortion-clinic bombings, and Ted Kaczynski's finale.
Good point. Even the #ISIS murders in San Bernardino and Orlando were carried out by native-born American citizens, not foreign terrorists like 9/11.
@Mnemosyne: One difference is that except for Kaczynski, who was sort of a Sixties fossil, most of that stuff was American far right; now we're getting a more eclectic mix.
@D58826:
And the Lt. Governor of Texas is claiming the protesters are hypocrites because they wanted the police to protect them. The Oath Keepers are calling on all citizens to be armed at all times and to form militia groups in every town and village.
C'mon don't you know that calls for accountability are just code for wanting to eliminate police departments?
I don't think there's any evidence that open carry laws enabled the shooter. Is it possible? Sure. What is evident is that open carry resulted in someone uninvolved getting his picture released to the public. It resulted in the police having to waste time during a crisis.
@dogwood: Sure it is. That is not what I was commenting on.
I know. I was agreeing with you. Didn't make that clear.
@Mnemosyne: First, what makes you think I am flying off the handle?
Second, read the post that I am talking about before you tell me I'm wrong:
When I first heard about there being snipers attacking police, the image of my mind is what I grew up with in tv and movies – the sniper, perched alone, waiting for the opportunity to shoot.
Then, I remembered that this was Texas.
Texas, with their Open Carry Gun Laws.
Last night, 5 Dallas Policeman lost their lives. They lost their lives because those that meant them harm, used a peaceful protest to get up close and personal to their intended victims.
The NRA and gun nuts built this. In most states, the sight of someone with a rifle would be cause to ALERT AUTHORITIES. Not in Texas. Because they can walk in broad daylight with a rifle and nobody could say shyt. The police had to trust on faith that those rifles were not loaded. This is the summer. You just couldn't have a rifle with you and not be noticed.
Without open carry, the sniper could never have gotten that close to their target. They would have had to hide and set up. By having to do so, the likelihood of someone seeing something and calling 911 goes up. The sniper was literally able to hide in plain sight and get up close to the intended target because of open carry.
Open Carry made the Dallas Police Department SITTING DUCKS for those that meant them harm.
Tripod says:
The front page at CNN is way more yellow journalistic than even FOX.
WTF happened over there?
That post is pure speculation. It was summer in Orlando and the dude for a modified AR-15, a 9mm and tons of ammo in the club.
@I'mNotSureWhoIWantToBeYet: Good points, Scott.
I guess you missed the video of the killer walking up behind a cop and shooting him in the head. I'm not in the mood to Google for it — you can do it yourself.
@Quinerly: Realize that right wing media spits in the face of RFK's sage who preaches such sentiment, and immediately exploited the Dallas shootings to stoke more hate against Obama and Clinton. Let's be clear they want this war and believe in second amendment solutions, except when exercised by the wrong people. You cant avoid the fact that the underlying sense of growing nihilistic violence is what they thrive on.
@Mnemosyne: I guess you missed the video of the killer walking up behind a cop and shooting him in the head. I'm not in the mood to Google for it — you can do it yourself.
Video here. That's (very likely) the same guy who would up holed up in the El Centro parking garage because he is front of the El Centro building in the video.
Carrying what looks to be an AR-15. no handgun.
Johnson told police he spent time in the military and was carrying a military-style rifle. Johnson was hit by gunfire before going into the El Centro college building and that officers followed Johnson's blood trail into the building, according to a law enforcement source. Officers found him on the second floor, and then fired more rounds through a wall, apparently hitting Johnson again and wounding him. After that, the negotiations began and spanned several hours. Johnson threatened many times to charge the officers, according to the source.
Really not sure what the argument is about here.
['?']
Elizabelle says:
A – fucking – men.
@dogwood: This is delusional. Of course open carry makes it easier to ambush police.
And nothing proves better than this incident the lie that allegedly mass shooting would be reduced if only the victims were armed and prepared to shoot back. God damn the NRA lies that abet this bullshyt.
@max: None of this could have possibly happened if it were not for open carry.
I think a better example and deterrent is locking someone up for life rather than execution.
Humbly, I must disagree. There are two problems with the death penalty as currently used:
* Crap investigations and prosecutions that snare a lot of innocent people. False positive rate way too high.
* Essentially no death penalty for white collar crime. Value of life (for statistics) is currently in the millions. Commit a financial crime of that size, you should be eligible for the death penalty, IMHO.
@Dmbeaster: Yeah, but you have to be a drooling moron to believe the "if the victims were armed" argument to begin with.
@Tripod: ratings envy is what happened.
@Dmbeaster: Horseshit. I'm totally against open carry. That does not mean that the dude could not have gotten the weapons there without that stupid law. You say "easier". Maybe but that's not the same as "@max: "Without open carry, the sniper could never have gotten that close to their target. They would have had to hide and set up. By having to do so, the likelihood of someone seeing something and calling 911 goes up. The sniper was literally able to hide in plain sight and get up close to the intended target because of open carry." I said that is unfounded, the shooter easily could have gotten the weapons in the building open carry or not." If it was how did Orlando happen?
@Elizabelle: This supposes that the guy just walked down the street with the weapons and ammo. You don't know that and neither does anyone else yet.
@Paul in KY: IMHO it's pretty difficult to argue that, with the levels of immigration that England was seeing (I'm thinking mostly Eastern Europe here) that it wouldn't have a negative impact on wages at the lower end of the scale.
@ruemara:
I wrote last night that I believe turning on Facebook Live saved her and her daughter's lives.
tell it.
@raven: true
@Paul in KY: They probably told him that he would probably be killed if he did not surrender.
Killing him reminds me of an episode in San Diego when some nut stole a tank from a National Guard armory and went on a rampage. The frightful and unstoppable carnage of thing was scary. He eventually got himself hung up on the concrete barrier separating the traffic lanes, and the police climbed onto the vehicle, opened the hatch, and ordered him out. He did not respond or budge, so the police shot him. Sometimes they just have to do it.
@liberal: The death penalty is also hideously expensive to adjudicate, racist in its application, and dehumanizing to the people involved in carrying it out.
Truegster says:
During times like these, I usually play Peace Orchestra and Kruder & Dorfmeister's BBC Sessions at outrageously loud levels, make a mixed drink of rum & coke, etc
redshirt says:
@Betty Cracker: It's state sanctioned murder which I don't know how anyone can justify for any reason. Maybe if it was freaking Magneto or something you could claim it's a safer course, but we don't live in a world of super villains. Just people.
@raven: Horseshit to you raven. Open carry clearly makes it easier. Whether or not in this situation this guy crept into his sniper position unnoticed, or did so openly, is irrelevant. It cannot be disputed that open carry essentialky eliminates the need to be sneaky and eliminates the risk that the plot is discovered and deterred beforehand based on being spotted with the weapon.
What is the point of the police warning shout "gun" if everyone is carrying?
Orlando happened because the guy was a regular at the club and nobody thought he would open fire on his friends.
Open carry made this crime easier. I don't know why you're so resistant to that. Sure, the asshole might have tried another way of killing people if it had been harder for him to bring in a gun, but open carry made it easier.
@liberal: I'm not sure you're disagreeing with me. Or I'm misunderstanding you.
I'm opposed to the death penalty.
I don't think that cost arguments are very persuasive, but it's often claimed that the death penalty isn't cheaper than life. I also agree that the death penalty isn't applied in an unbiased manner.
And the Lt. Governor of Texas is claiming the protesters are hypocrites because they wanted the police to protect them.
I just saw that–revolting. The guy does not understand that it might make sense to expect police to protect you and not murder you on a whim.
When you have reason to fear the police, you can't use the police; there's no law. This is what African-Americans kept saying about the Jim Crow South, that there was no law for them. And there wasn't. Nor is there any law for you when the police are shooting you on sight, or running an extortion racket in your neighborhood.
I don't know why you're so resistant to that.
Because we (the public) do not know all the facts of the case yet. I really do not have a dog in this discussion, but I do understand Raven's point.
We do not know as of yet the tic toc of how this shooter got to the place where he began firing. If you do (and it is possible that you have info that we do not) help us understand.
To turn this around….you tell us how open carry assisted the shooter in this specific in event.
@Matt McIrvin: The Lt Gov of Texas (my state) in an evangelical sociopath. If he were Muslim he would be executing school girls in a soccer stadium. Since he is a christian here, he can only go so far.
@Mnemosyne: No, it happened because he was able to conceal a rifle and handgun and walk in the door. Conceal, get that, he hid them. I reacted to the blanket statement that open carry was the cause of this:
That could even be true but no one knows that yet.
@Dmbeaster:
I don't know if this killer was openly carrying for all to see before he started shooting, or if he came on the scene near the end. What I do know is open carry is as destructive a policy as there is in this country. It normalizes something decent people should find horrific. We live in a country where dressing up in military garb, grabbing a rifle and posing for pictures has become acceptable.
The Lt Gov of Texas (my state) in an evangelical sociopath. If he were Muslim he would be executing school girls in a soccer stadium. Since he is a christian here, he can only go so far.
This is perversely funny, but well stated. The worst evangelicals are often closer to Muslim extremists than some would be willing to admit.
It's easier to bring a loaded rifle to an event where other people also have rifles with them. If no one else has a rifle, the person with a rifle stands out more.
I still don't get why that's a controversial thing to say.
I suppose the guy in Dallas could have concealed his guns, but I don't know why he would bother since there were other people who were there with guns.
The problem with open carry is that it normalizes the sight of someone carrying a gun and makes it harder to figure out if you're looking at a good guy with a gun or a bad guy with a gun. Remember the mass shooting in Colorado where several people called the police to say that there was a guy with a rifle walking down the street, only to be told that it was totally legal and they couldn't do anything until he shot someone?
Unholy FSM, a congresscritter just said that we should be talking about gun crime not gun control. And we should say pretty please more often. Take away the gun and the gun part of the crime disappears. When pressed on the fact that the cops were shot by a gun he said that he had been stabbed as a cop years ago. Right we have 30k people a year dying from stab wounds. These people are worthless.
Get used to it because that's going to be the narrative.
The part that I italicized is not controversial and it is not the statement that was being discussed. Do you realize that you are offering two different ideas up for "debate"?
@dogwood: I know. It's just frustrating and in this case I wanted to kick the TV. The self-righbtous s-b wsas talking about he could be a bridge between the white community and John Lewis representing the African American community. They aren't even on the banks of the same river.
this is so much fail. i mean, the whole point of the protest is to demand that cops actually protect people of color instead of murdering them.
You seem to have an issue with my stating this.
The guy that they falsely put out there as a suspect, but who wasn't,
WAS WALKING AROUND AT THE DEMONSTRATION WITH A RIFLE STRAPPED TO HIM.
no COAT. just walking around STRAPPED.
Out in the open.
I don't think it's normal – no matter who does it.
I don't think people, who are not law enforcement, should be walking around a PROTEST with a rifle strapped to them.
I don't think it's right.
And, if I saw someone, in my state, walking around the way this INNOCENT guy was walking around, I would not have cared – I would have called the police on them.
How YOU don't think open carry DID NOT participate in making the Dallas Policemen sitting ducks for those that wanted to do them harm….
I don't understand that.
Sounds like bs, but at least he's talking about building bridges. There's much worse being said.
i don't know if open carry made it easier for these guys to do what they did, but i will say that it made it a hell of a lot easier for the cops to zero in on the wrong guy.
@Mnemosyne: I suppose the guy in Dallas could have concealed his guns, but I don't know why he would bother since there were other people who were there with guns.
If you've seen the video, I suspect that that's his SUV his orbiting near to when he is exchanging fire with the cops. Ergo, he popped out of the SUV and started shooting and he wasn't marching. (He then got hit withdrew (read: retreated/ran away) to the parking garage and likely resumed firing from there. Then he holed up someone inside the parking garage when the cops got to the second floor.)
If there hadn't been open carry Mark Hughes wouldn't have gotten in trouble, but aside from that, open carry isn't really involved here because the shooter was in the truck with the gun. If there wasn't open carry but a big crowd and the guy had popped out and opened up there still would have been serious confusion, particularly given the various reports echoing off of the buildings.
That part I agree with. On the other hand, the problem is the guy with the gun (in the sense that he's got a hate on AND he's got (or can get) a gun).
['…']
This guy saw him pull out the kit and start shooting.
It's shouldn't be normal, but it is becoming increasingly so. I don't know if reports are accurate concerning the innocent kid, but some said his brother was one of the organizers. If that's true, then WTF. If it's true that guy's weapon wasn't loaded then he's no different than any other dude who thinks using a weapon as an accessory gives him some cred or status or whatever the hell. Like you, I don't give a shit what's legal. If I see someone carrying a rifle, I'm dialing 911.
@Tripod:
Now that is something you can put stock in. I want to know what open carry had to do with this. The dude pulled up, grabbed his shit out of the car and started shooting.
@rikyrah: Because it was totally wrong.
Arclite says:
@max: Except that we are nation of laws with the presumption of innocence. Summarily executing him seems in violation of those rights. The strength of our laws is shown not when it's most convenient to enforce them, but when it is least convenient.
According to the Mayor of Dallas, when the shooting started there were about 20 folks with rifles and cammo gear in the area. The started to run, naturally, and the police started chasing them. They all had to be questioned to determine if they were involved in the shooting. I just wonder whither the real shooter got a bit of breath space to continue killing while the cops were chasing innocent people. Again the problem of people openly carrying long guns in public. You don't know who are the good guys and who are the bad, and lives can be lost while trying to figure it out.
TriassicSands says:
Sometimes they just have to do it.
But that doesn't sound like an example of a time when killing was the only or even the best option. Just the most expedient for people who think guns are the best way to solve problems.
@liberal: Was a bit tongue-in-cheek there.
"Vicious, calculated and despicable" (Updated) And Now For Something Completely Different