What if the purpose is to experience pain? Which is a pre-requisite for joy.,(reply>), @hbofbyu1 Agreed, all these things are true. Also, I am sure you are right, that we probably have different definitions of pain. Which is why I say pain is subjective, unique to each of us. What I do think is while pain is a natural occurrence I don't consider it necessary. i believe we are meant to be good souls, to be added to those who exist in the afterlife, to try to use generic terms. I try to be open to all points of view.<br>One trait in support of your argument that can be enhanced thru pain would be compassion.<br>So my question becomes, is pain required to be compassionate?<br>I don't think a blanket statement can be used. I've met too many truly compassionate souls.,(reply>), ​@OhAncientOne We likely don't agree on what pain is. I'm not talking about any specific instance of joy requires a specific instance of pain to precede it but there are examples. <br>I'm looking at the big picture. Physically the first thing we feel of existence is pain. The baby cries from pain of birth, of hunger and discomfort when it enters the world. The mother feels incredible pain in pregnancy and birth but still feels the joy and love afterward - and part of that preceding pain constitutes that joy.<br>Emotionally, we don't know love until we know the pain of love. Suffering does not mean love, but real love absolutely will require suffering. I don't know how that can be argued unless you've never lost a child, parent, spouse or a great love. Love is sacrifice - whether offered voluntarily in the moment or ultimately unwillingly.,(reply>), @hbofbyu1 You said pain is a "prerequisite" for joy.<br>That, is nonsense, there is absolutely no evidence  for such a statement except possibly a religious belief in a God who inflicts pain and suffering. This may exist for you, but is certainly not the kind of God I imagine.<br>The big problem I have with your statement is that you suggest there is an order required.<br>You can never prove such a statement, and in fact, I have have had a lifetime of joyous moments that require no previous pain to judge how good I feel. Feelings are subjective, and have nothing to do with a physical object like a coin. The analogy is invalid.,(reply>), @OhAncientOne The idea that we can achieve happiness by maximizing pleasure and minimizing pain is both intuitive and popular. The truth is, however, very different. Pleasure alone cannot make someone happy.<br><br>You can't have light without darkness, you can't have death without life, you can't have good without bad. Sweet without bitter, you can't act without something to be acted upon. There's no such thing as a one-sided coin. <br>Newton's 3rd law: For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.,(reply>), Pain a prerequisite for Joy?<br>What a load of BS.