Tribunal Suspect Finds Court’s Role ‘Limited’
Meas Muth, the former commander of the Khmer Rouge navy, is among five suspects in two cases before the UN-backed tribunal. 
The way I see it, there were some, but not as many as they estimated. I say there could be some. I said there could be some because the general staff [of the Khmer Rouge army] summoned people to come for training. At the end of the training, they told the unit that they would not send so-and-so back to the unit. Instead, the general staff sent them to S-21. The unit in reality didn’t know the reasons. This incident happened once or twice in the unit I was in charge of. It was the same at headquarters as at my unit. In fact I didn’t know exactly what the problem was, but the general staff that was in charge of all the divisions customarily summoned mid- and low-level leaders for training at their center. This was their way of doing the training, three or four times per year. Each training was set up for a division of 20 or 30, or sometimes up to 50 or 60, people. In fact, firstly, there were no civilians at my place. Secondly, there were only soldiers and their families. Therefore, there was no forced labor in my unit. I don’t know where they got the documents. They never came to ask me anything. I think the national co-prosecutor was right in this case, because these indictments would be a violation of the law. The law limits the Khmer Rouge trials to the top and most responsible leaders only. Now the top and most responsible are already being indicted. To make additional indictments would be beyond the limitations of the law, and this will cause social unrest and security problems and will definitely affect some people. First, it’s illegal. The law limits the trial to a number of people, and we go beyond the law. Second, if you violate the law it will affect the forces that are protecting the border and national security. Suppose you pick one more, two more, or five more, that’s not a problem. But what will happen to the other people? They will think that it will get to them one day. That’s the danger. That’s what I mean by affected, more or less. In fact I never knew or heard about that. At my location, there were no Vietnamese, no Thais. I will abide by the government’s decision, but it has to explain very clearly. First, the law is limited to the top and most responsible leaders. Now they’ve gone beyond that number. Second, if the court proceeds with the additional indictments, how will that affect the work of national security? Certainly it will affect other people, because there aren’t only two or three Khmer Rouge, there are many more, in and out, near and far. In fact it was all of us Khmers at that time. No, I don’t think I have any concern or any fear, because I look at it this way: first I think no one can be 80 years old twice. If the documents are disclosed or leaked, that is the problem of the court. The court isn’t doing its job seriously or properly by allowing leaks. This is what I think: it’s like the court is alerting people to run, the people who are guilty to go to the jungle, because no one wants to die. But I don’t have any fear. Actually it’s a little lengthy, but I’m going to make it short. The main point is this: the court must clearly know what the source of the problem is. After the March 18, 1970, coup d’etat, the Prince Father [Norodom Sihanouk] called upon all Cambodian people of all walks of life to unite and fight. Therefore the main cause of the Khmer Rouge is the US and the second is the Prince Father. When the court brings Case 002 [to trial], I don’t think these are the real leaders yet. That’s the story. If the US didn’t push Lon Nol to make the coup d’etat, there wouldn’t have been the Khmer Rouge, and if the Prince Father hadn’t made the call for his children and grandchildren to go to the jungle, there wouldn’t have been the Khmer Rouge. This is the summary of events. If you want to do it half way, I would say that’s not very good. That’s all I want to say. Sun Tzu says it is better to betray people, to make sure people don’t betray you. If you oppose me, I will certainly not keep you. I see that this problem is a lot like that. It happens in any country these days. Look at Africa, or Arab countries. There are demonstrations in a number of countries. In Syria, a lot of people have been killed. That’s the opposition, and they will not keep you to oppose them any more. In my view, the possibility exists when an administration is new. It can’t cover everything. And secondly, there are a lot of people who have the idea of opposing the Khmer Rouge regime, like the US and Vietnam. Therefore, there were a lot of their agents infiltrating, who were actively making the regime loose, like the slogans “Burn until it’s scorched” and “Put out the fire to make it uncooked.” That’s how I see the problem. In my division there was no order to do that. I saw only one time where they called three people to the training. They told us that they would keep those three there and wouldn’t let them return to the unit. I didn’t see any mistakes. But sometimes we couldn’t investigate their deep background, and at the headquarters they could have found out something that we could never know. For this question, I would let the government answer, because it’s the government’s promise. First, a large number of former Khmer Rouge soldiers have participated in the defense of the border area. In some places they have fought very hard on the battlefield. Second, on the trial of their leaders, and there are always rumors, they certainly must be thinking that they are fighting now but later they may be accused of war crimes and other crimes. They think about that for sure, and worry too. I can really compare this to the relationship between father and son. And even animals have feelings as well. Take the case of the young chicks and mother hen. When you take her chicks the mother will chase you, and when you take the mother, her chicks will cry loudly. There is no difference between humans and animals.