re zionist leaders frank statements in article t aqj odv cville srv wam umd edu aap wam umd edu alberto adolfo pinkas writes in article bf fc news service uci edu tclock orion oac uci edu tim clock writes try coming up with your own definition of any or all self hating peoples to me any who reject their culture to the point where they only see the absolute negatives of that culture generally or regarding a particular event and accept only those views purely opposing aspects of that culture thus selective belief in use of historical facts and a complete ignoring of context results hate their culture i believe that things are getting mixed here critizicing israel and or being anti zionist is not seeing the absolute negatives of that culture if that culture referred to is israeli being anti zionist can be seen as a complete denial of that entity s right to exist and its legitimacy just as saying that islam has no right to establish and implement a state that includes any non muslims both are absolute one dimensional views of that culture with regard to the issue of state maybe because a person can see the positives of that culture is that that person opposes zionism and the actions of the state of israel if that were the case one would expect a few of that culture s positives to be discussed with regard to the issue at hand since the issue centers on israeli culture i have yet to hear of any positives of that culture in this discussion i for one consider the actions of the state of israel with respect to the human rights of the palestinian people as an example of an action thaty opposes what jewish culture was suppose to uphold as an example of respect and what the jewish people learned about oppresion segregation and years in the diaspora i agree with you but i also feel that when a culture feels it is confronted by another group that wishes to see that culture disassembled the first culture has little choice but to try to secure its survival as well as maintain its moral center since the culture is not about to turn away from either the matter of its survival or the valuing of its moral principles it has the virtually impossible job of balancing to discuss israel s faults and crimes without any recognition of this circumstance and reality it faces is a conscious decision based on the discussant s political biases not on an honest and empathetically open understanding of the situation the same applies to those who attempt to paint the palestinian movement as all bad and dispense with considerations of the reality facing them that certainly describes elias since he has no intention of recognizing that alongside the palestinian experience and perspective there exists also that of israelis he might not want to recognize that it does not make him a self hating jew as far as i see it at most he is a person who is not telling the truth you beg the question by centering on the symptoms while the issue of self hating addresses the motivations i certainly feel that anyone who expends so much effort inflating distorting and robbing human context from aspects of his her own culture is reflecting a degree of dislike for it since bits of that culture are bound due to his her upbringing to be a part of him her a bit of self dislike seems likely to be mixed in somewhere who is a jew a person whose integrity decays when unmoved by the knowledge of wrong done to other people a j heschel that is why i get moved when i see the israeli army killing people in the occupied territories as much as i get moved when i see a plestinian stabing people in israel and this is precisely why israeli society has been tremendously harmed by the actions it its government has felt it had to take in response to an other perceived as a threat just as with you there has long been a strident and emotional debate about the pain israelis feel when forced to balance desires for survival and moral beliefs the trauma of having to make that choice is made worse by the fact that neither can be conveniently brushed aside as a result of a reasoned political debate for the sake of the other only reshaped but so far it seems that the blame is always put on the other if you read this newsgroup for example israel is never guilty by herself she is always responding to the actions of the other and it goes as if the actions of isreal do not also affect the response of the other in a cycle that never ends also there is blindness to try to understand what the other feels and why as you well know this process of blaming the other for the morally questionable actions one side is forced by the other of course to take is thoroughly practiced by both sides if you are only hearing the pro israeli crowd s self supporting arguments that may be due to the fact that you are not listening for anything else i certainly hear the similarly distorting pro palestinian pro arab element in this newsgroup as well as in soc culture arabic there is always and excuse there is always a rationale to explain why things happen as they do and what is the worst part for me there seems to be all the time an intention to try to de humanize the other as if the other did not care about their future children peace etc etc aap i agree agree agree agree however in my response to the initial discussion above between davidsson and those opposing his presentations i saw davidsson carefully putting academic frills around a blatantly one sided series of i hate dislike them yesido yesido yesido i did not find the approach of those opposing davidsson to be centered at all on a denigration and denial of the other side i certainly do wonder if the degree to which davidsson s views on the middle east have distorted is connected to his dislike and rejection of his jewish lineage having said this however i agree with you that this constant accusing others of being self hating jews seems pointless it is not worse a label than is why you re on their side except to perhaps imply a certain degree of overly enthusiastic biasedness tim tim clock ph d graduate student uci tel department of politics and society fax university of california irvine home tel irvine ca
