And what you really are trying to understand, if you remember from the value proposition and customer segment lectures, is you're trying to understand what pain is being solve for them and what gain is your product creating for them, and if the core is you're trying to derive an archetype of who they are and so what we tend to do is suggest there are startups that you would literally start with a series of hypothesis and you get out of the building and in your customer discovery process, you're going to start refining archetypes.