Report of the Select committee on education
10. Uw Comite beveelt aan dat de regulaties voor het nazien van de rekeniiigeii van een School Raad niet uitgezonden zullen worden voorzij gocd- gekeurd zijii door den Auditenr-Generaal ; en dat het nazien onder artikel eeii-eii-zeventig van de School Eaden Wet geschiedeii zal zooals daarin bepaald. DC rekeningen zulleii dan in de gewoiie loop van zakeii naar den Auditeui-Generaal ge- zonden worden, die aaii het Parlement zal rappor- teeren zooals hij goed viiidt. Een jaarlijksche staat behoort voor hot Parlement gelegd te worden aantooiiende, voor elke School Raad, de voor- naamste bronnen van inkomsten en de voor- naamste hoofdcii van uitgave, alsook het bedrag en den aard der baten en lasten. VI. De School Eaden Wet 1905. 1. Uw Comite is niet in staat geweest het be- langrijke oiitwerp van Xaturellen opvoeding te overwegen, Zij beveelt aan dat een onderzoek naar dit belangrijk onderwerp zoo spoedig moge- lijk zal ingesteld worden. 2. Daar zijii andere zaken waarmee uw Comite thans niet in staat is te handelen. o.a. de kwesties van de wijze en aard van plaatselijke belasting voor School Raad doeleinden, van voorziening voor behoeftige distrikten en van wijk verkiezin- XX VI 11 gen, en het recht van leden van School Radeii oni kontrakten aan te gaan "met hunne respektieve Raden. Uw Comite gevoelt dat hot onAvenschelijk is hot tegenwoordige stelsel te veranderen behalve Avaar er voldoende bewijs is voor ameiidement en van de genoegzaamheid van de voorgestelde veranderiiigen. 3. Er zijn anclere zaken van ecu betwisteiid aard Avaariiaar uw Comite geeii verder oiiderzoek heeft gedaan. omdat zij gelooft dat eeiie besprekiiig van deze puiiten thaiis weinig nut zal doeii. 4. Uw Comite beschouwt het als een zaak van groot belang dat de AVctgeviiig steeds op de hoogte zal gehoudeii wordeii van alles wat gedaan Avordt in zake oiiderwijs administrate, en beveelfc de aaiistelling aan. zoodra mogelijk^ van een Minister van Oiiderwijs. VI. Het Landmeiers Examen* 1. Toelating tot het Landmeters beroep wordt gekregen door aflegging van een theoretisch exameii .afgeiiomeu door de Universiteit en een praktisch exameii afgeiiomen door den Landmeter-Geiieraal, •die nu haiidelt in oveiieg met de Landmeters- Generaal van Transvaal en Rhodesia. 2. DC Laiidiiieter-Geiieraal heeft in zijn getm- .genis verklaart dat het praktisch exameii voor- heeii oppervlakkig en on voldoende Avas. 3. Na het besloteii werd oin de omvaiig van het exameii uit te breideii werd keiinis van de veraii- dcring op 2 Augustus 1906 gegeven. Bij het -exameii in Maart 1.1., dropeii 52 uit de 55 kaiidi- datcn, 011 van de drie die slaagdeii werden de tekortkomingeii van t^vee vergeven. 4. De iiieuwe schikkingeii werden getroffeii op ecu Conferentic van Landmeters-Geiieraal ge- houden te Bloemfontein in Februari 1906. 5. Uw Comite beschouwt dat de kcimisgeviiig van de vcrandering in de syllabus te kort Avas en •dat het weigereii om aan kaiididateii te zeggen hoeAreel merken zij kregen onboA^redigend is. en gestopt behoort te wordeii. Uw Comite XXIX Han dat, inclien praktiscli, aan alien die in hun. theoretisch Laiidmetcrs Exam en slaagden voor 1906 eeii gelcgenheid behoort gegeven to wordcn om in liet praktische exam en te slagen oncler de oudc voorwaarden, en dat de Landmeter- Generaal weder in overweging zal nemeii do wenschelijklieid van aan de Universiteit over to- handigcn het bosticr van het praktische examen, met dieii vcrstaiide dat de Universiteit in overleg met de Laiidmeters-General zal werken. VIII. De examens afyenomen doorde Universiteit en zekere correspondentie tusschen het Ondenrijx Departement en de Universiteit. De correspondentie iiaar uw Comite verwezen wordt in sectie I. (5) van dit Eapport be- handeld. Uw Comite is van gevoelen dat do aanstelling van den Minister in opzicht van Onder- wijs als een lid van de Universiteit s Kaad strekkeii zal om misverstand te voorkomen en zij beveelt daarom aaii dat voorziening daarvoor door wet- geving zal worden gemaakt. IX. Het Rhijnsche Instituut, titellenbosch. 1. Er zijn twee Eerste Klas Publieke Onsek- tarische Meisjes Scholen te Stellenbosch, bekend als Bloemhof en het Khijnsche Instituut. Eerst- genoemde is altijd een publieke school geweest, Laatstgenoemde werd in 1860 — vijftien jaren voor Bloemhof — gesticht, maar was een Private School tot 1901, toeii het in een Publieke School ver- anderd werd. Bouw-leeiiingen ter waarde van £23,000 werdeii later aan beide scholeii gegeven, Er zijn thans 335 meisjes op Bloemhof en 150 op het Rhijnsche Instituut. Terwijl eerstgenoemde in staat is zijne schulden te betalen, vreest men dat laatstgeiioemde dit iiiet kan doen. 2. Het blijkt dat, terwijl de twee Meisjes Scholeii te Stellenbosch zonder moeite kondeii bestaan ware het niet voor de groote bouw leeningen, tegenwoordige omstandigheden het bestaan van XXX bouw lecniiigeii ton bedragc van £46.000 voor die twee scholen nict rechtvaardigen. 011 dat bet Departement jareii reeds van gevoelen geweest is dat de twee scholen gezameiilijk bestierd moeten worden. 3. Onder deze omstaiidighedeii beveelt uw Comite aaii dat bet Gouvernement ovorwegc of bet Rhijnsclie Instituut Gebouw niet voor een ander doel gebruikt kan worden dan dat waarvoor bet tbans bestaat, zooals een Opleidiiigs Instituut, maar zij beveelt niet aaii dat eenigo uitzondering gemaakt zal worden ten opzicbte van bet over- nemeii van publieke school gebouweii in eenig <distrikt door Scbool Baden. X. Het Goede Hoop Seminar ie. 1. Het Goede Hoop Seminarie wercl in 1873 op- gericbt en word een publieke school in 1888. Slecbts een van de oorspronkelijke Trustees, de beer W. E. Moore, leeft thans. De Raad van Direkteuren die bet Kost-Departemeiit bestiert, bestond oorspronkelijk uit de Trustees en is vol- tallig gemaakt geworden, naardat vacaturen ont- stonden, door kiezing door de overblijvende Directeuren. De Directeuren zijn ook de bestier- ders van de school, die bestierd wordt door een comite bestaande uit de Directeuren en vertegen- woordigers van bet publiek. Het Comite betaalt de Directeuren buur voor de school gebouwen. 2. Tot 1905 werden toelagen geregeld betaald door bet Departenient, insluitende een toelage die bet Departenient volhoudt voor bet kost-departe- ment was onder Artikel een-en-twintig van de regulaties op toelagen. In 1905 werd deze toelage geweigerd door de school autoriteiten op grond dat bet Departenient bet als een toelage aan bet Kost Departenient bescbouwde, terwijl de Direc- teuren volhouden dat geen toelage ooit betaald werd voor bet Kost Departenient. De Minister weigerde de andere toelagen te geven zoiider deze bijzondere toelage, op grond dat zoodanige handel- XXXI wijze uitgelegd mag worden als een erkenning dat het Kost Departement niet een volledig deel van de publieke school is, lietgeen sommige belaiig- hebbende personen volhouden dat het is, terwijl de Directeuren weigerden . deze toelage te ontvan- gen op grond dat zoodanige aannemiiig uitgelegd inag worden als een erkenning dat het Kost Depar- tement een volledig deel van de publieke school is, hetgeen zij volhouden dat het niet is. Dus sedert het eerste kwartaal van 1906 zijn geen toelagen betaald ge worden. 3. Uw Comite vindt dat de school autoriteiten thans bereid zijn al de toelagen te ontvaiigen onder protest en zonder eenige afbreuk aan hunne bewering. XI. Wetgeving Vereischt. 1. De volgende artikels van de School Raad Wet zullen geamendeerd moeten worden ten einde de aanbevelingen van uw Comite ten uitvoer te leggen : Artikel Vier. — Om toe te laten de vereeniging van school distrikten waar er meer dan een school distrikt in een fiscale afdeelms o IS. Artikel Drie- en-dertig. — Om School Kaden de macht te geven te stichten en over te nemen industrieele en opleiding scholen, en om saam te werken met andere School- raden voor dat doel. Artikel Zes- en-dertig. — Te veranderen de Wet ten opzichte van Boerenplaats scholen. Artikel Drie-en-zeventig. — Yoorziening te makeii voor de terugbetaliiigen van belas- tingen in zekere gevallen. 2. Yoorziening zal ook door de Wetgeving moeten gemaakt worden om School Kaden in staat te stellen kost toelagen, waar noodig, te betalen onderworpeii aan de goedkeuring van het Departe- ment, en om de Minister van den dag die verant- woordelijk is voor Onder wijs een lid van den Universiteits Raad te makeii. XXX11 3. Aclditioneele School Begulaties zullen moeten goedgekeurd worden oni zekere van de aanbe- velingen van uw Comite ten uitvoer te leggen. H. E. S. FKEMANTLE. Yoorzitter. Comite Kamer, Wetgevende Vergadering, 5 September 1907. PROCEEDINGS OF COMMITTEE. PROCEEDINGS OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE appointed by Order of the House of Assembly, dated the 16th July, 1907, to in- quire into and report upon : («) The curriculum in the public schools of the Colony, and the provision made for technical instruction ; (7>) The scope and working of the school regulations now in force concerning publie schools under the School Boards ; (c) The grading of schools, and grants in aid ; (d) The medium of instruction ; (e) The financial system at present obtaining, more especially with reference to the mode of liquidating the deficits ; (/) The practical Examinations supplementary to the Exami- nations conducted by the University, more particularly that of the practical Land Surveyors latterly held ; (.</) The examinations conducted by the University, and the correspondence between the Education Department and University relating thereto ; with instructions to inquire and report as to any amendments which may be necessary in the School Board Act, 1905, and the school regulations now in force ; the Committee to have power to take evidence and call for papers, and to consist of Messrs. DE WAAL, HELLIER, JAGGER, MC!NTOSH, MALAN, SAUER, H. S. VAN ZYL, WHITAKER, the SECRETARY FOR AGRICULTURE, Messrs. FREMANTLE and SLATER. Friday, 19th July, 1907. PRESENT : The Secretary for Agriculture. Mr. Hellier. Mr. Jagger. Mr. H. S. Van Zyl. Mr. Whitaker. Mr. Fremantle. Mr. Slater. Mr. Malan. Clerk read Order of the House, dated the 16th July, 1907, appointing the Committee. Resolved : That Mr. Fremantle be Chairman. Resolved : That there be laid before the Committee the follow- ing papers : (1) Eleven copies of School Regulations, especially pamphlets on Grants in Aid. (2) Eleven copies of Syllabus in Schools. (3) One copy of all the pamphlets published by (he Education Department. The Committee deliberated and adjourned until Monday, the inst. at 10 a.m. [A. 9.— '07.]— Education. XXXI V PROCEEDINGS OF COMMITTEE. Monday, 22nd July, 1907. PRESENT : Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). The Secretary for Agri- culture. Mr. Hellier. Mr. Jagger. Mr. Malan. Mr. H.S. VanZyl. Mr. Whitaker. Mr. Slater. Clerk read and laid upon the Table a letter dated the 23rd instant, from the Surveyor-General, forwarding statement showing the number of candidates examined by the Surveyor-General in land surveying, and the number of successful candidates from 1897 to 1907. Mr. Athelstan Hall Cornish-Bowden, Surveyor-General, was ex- amined, and put in a report of the Institute of Government Land Surveyors, on the practical working of the profession of Land Sur- veying, and the inclusion of certain subjects in the Survey Exam- inations. (Part only printed). [Appendix A.] The Honorable Colonel Charles Preston Crewe, C.B., M.L.A., Secretary for Agriculture, was examined, and put in correspond- ence with the University Council in connection with the subject of the School Higher and proposed School Leaving Certificate examinations. [Appendix B.] The Committee deliberated and adjourned unill to-morrow at 10 a.m. Tuesday, 23rd July, 1907. PRESENT : Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). Mr. Jagger. Mr. Malan. Mr. H. S. Van Zyl. Mr. Slater. Dr. William Thomson, M.A., B.Sc., LL.D., Registrar of the Cape University, was examined. The Committee deliberated and adjourned until to-morrow at II a.m. Wednesday, 24th July, 1907. PRESENT Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). Mr. de Waal. Mr. Jagger. Mr. Malan. Mr. Sauer. Mr. Whitaker. Mr. Slater. In the absence of the Chairman, Resolved : That Mr. Sauer take the Chair, PROCEEDINGS OF COMMITTEE. XXXV Mr. Paul Dietrich Cluver, Secretary of the Stellenbosch Divis- ional Council, was examined, and put in a copy of suggested amendments by the Stellenbosch Divisional Council to School Boards Act. [Appendix D]. During the examination of the witness the Chairman entered the room, and Mr. Sauer vacated the Chair. Mr. Arthur Abercrombie Elliott, Secretary of the Cape Town School Board, was examined. The Committee deliberated and adjourned until Wednesday, the 7 tli August, at 10 a.m. Thursday, 8th August, 1907. PRESENT : Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman), Mr. Hellier. Mr. Jagger. Mr. Sauei*. Mr. Whitaker. Mr. Malan. Clerk rWd Order of the House, dated the 6th instant, that the Committee, which had adjourned until Wednesday, the 7th instant, meet to-day at 10 a.m. Clerk read Order of the House, dated the 6th instant, referring to the jCommittee the Petition presented to the House 011 23rd July, on the subject of the Amendment of the School Board Act in the direction of relief from the taxation of fixed property, and the Petition from A. Bresler and others, inhabitants of Porter- ville and Piquetberg, praying for the repeal of the School Board Act, presented to the House on the 24th July be referred to the Committee. Clerk read and laid the Petitions upon the Table. [Appendix E I. Clerk read and laid upon the Table a letter, dated 23rd July, from the Superintendent-General of Education forwarding, in compliance with a resolution dated 10th instant, copies of certain regulations and pamphlets issued by the Education Department. The Chairman laid upon the Table : (1) Copy of Resolutions passed by the School Board of Barkly East on the 10th July, 1007. (2) Copy of Resolution passed by the Divisional Council of Herbert on the 10th July, 1007. Mr. Arthur Abercrombie Elliott, Secretary of the Cape Town School Board, was further examined, and put in a comparison of School Finance under the Old and New Systems. The Committee deliberated and adjourned until to-morrow at 11 a.m. XXXVI PROCEEDINGS OF COMMITTEE. Friday, 9th August, 1007. PRESENT : Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). The Secretary for Agriculture. Mr. de Waal. Mr. Hellier. Mr. Jagger. Mr. Mclntosh. Mr. Malan. Mr. Saner. Mr. H. S. van Zyl, Mr. Whitaker. Mr. Slater. The Chairman laid upon the Table a letter, dated the 8th instant, from Mr. W. Thomson, Registrar of the Cape University, forward- ing the following returns, viz. : (1) Table showing the number examined at the School Elementary and School Higher examination. (2) Table showing attendance of Superintendent-General of Education at meetings of the University Council since 8th November, 1901. (3) Copy of Government Notice issued in 1836 with reference to the examination of Laud Surveyors. [Appendix F.] Mr. Audries Stephanus du Plessis, M.L.A., and Colonel William Joseph Warren, C.M.G., M.L.A., were examined. The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until Tuesday, at 11 a.m. Tuesday, 13th August, 1907. PRESENT : Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). The Secretary for Agriculture. Mr. Hellier. Mr. Sauer. Mr. Whitaker, Mr. Slater. Mr. Malan. Clerk laid upon the Table the following documents, forwarded by Mr. A. A. Elliott, Secretary of the Cape Town School Board, viz. :— (1) Memorandum re Profit and Loss Account. (2) Summary of the number of European children between the ages of 6 and 13, in the Cape Division in May, 1906. Dr. Thomas Muir, C.M.G., LL.D., M.A., F.R.S., Superintendent- General of Education, was examined. The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until Monday, at 10 a.m. PROCEEDINGS OF COMMITTEE. XXXYli Monday, 19th Auyust, 1'JOlf. PRESENT : Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). The Secretary for Agriculture. Mr. Hellier. Mr. Malan. Mr. Sauer. Mr. Whitaker. Mr. Jagger. .Clerk read Order of the House, dated the loth instant, that the Petition from the School Board of Stellenbosch, presented to the House on the 7th instant, on the subject of financial liability to the Rhenish Institute, be referred to the Committee. Clerk read and laid the Petition upon the Table [Appendix GJ. Clerk read a further Order of the House, dated the 15th instant, that the Petition presented to the House on the 12th instant, from the Managers of the Good Hope Seminary Public Day School, on the subject of the payment to them of the Government Grant, be referred to the Committee. Clerk read and laid the Petition upon the Table [Appendix H], Dr. Thomas Muir, C.M.G., LL.D., M.A., F.R.S., Superintendent- General of Education, was further examined, and put in a memor- andum on the subject of the financial system at present obtaining, more especially with reference to mode of liquidating deficits. The Committee deliberated and adjourned until Wednesday, at 10 a.m. Wednesday, 21st August, 1007. PRESENT : Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). The Secretary for Agriculture. Mr. Hellier. Mr. Sauer. Mr. Whitaker. Mr. Slater. Mr. Malan. Clerk read Order of the House dated the 10th instant, that the Petition from J. H. Fourie and others, inhabitants of Petrusville, praying that the School Boards Act of 1905 may be so amended that rates levied by Divisional Councils to meet a deficit may be appropriated solely for the use of the school area in which it is levied, be referred to the Committee. Clerk read and laid the Petition upon the Table. [Appendix I], Mr. William Edward Moore, Parliamentary Agent, Cape Town, and the Rev. Abraham Isaac Steytler, Mouille Point, were ex- amined. Mr. Henry Frank Costa Hewett, Civil Commissioner, Stelleu • bosch, was examined, and put in a return showing the number of XXXV111 PROCEEDINGS OF COMMITTEE. students attending Bloemhof, Rhenish and Boys' High Schools, Stellenbosoh, respectively. [Appendix J]. The Rev. Jacob Weeber, Stellenbosch, was examined and put in a statement of the assets and liabilities, up to the 30th June, 1907, of the Rhenish Institute, Stellenbosch. \Tlie Committee deliberated and adjourned until Monday, at 10 a.m. Monday, 26th August, 1907. PRESENT : Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). The Secretary for Agriculture. Mr. Hellier. Mr. Jagger. Mr. Sauer. Mr. Whitaker. Mr. Slater. Mr. Malan. Clerk read Order of the House, dated the 22nd instant, that the Petition of A. C. Meyer and others on the subject of Poor and Private Schools, presented to the House on the 21st instant, be referred to the Committee. Clerk read and laid the Petition upon the Table. [Appendix K]. Clerk read and laid upon the Table reports of Dr. Muir, Superin- tendent-General of Education, dated the 22nd instant, on the petition from the School Board of Stellenbosch, and the petition from the Managers of the Good Hope Seminary Public Day School, presented to the House on the 7th and 12th instants respectively. [Appendix L]. Mr. Walter Edwin Gurney, Controller and Auditor-General, was examined. The Committee deliberated and adjourned until Wednesday, at 10 a.m. Wednesday, 21 Ik Any ml, 1907. PRESENT Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). The Secretary for Agri- culture. Mr. Hellier. Mr. Sauer. Mr. Whitaker. Mr. Slater. Mr. Malan. Dr. Thomas Muir, C.M.G., LL.D., M.A., F.R.S., Superintendent- General of Education, was further examined. The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until to-morrow, at 10.30 a.m. PROCEEDINGS OF COMMITTEE. XXXIX Thursday, 29th August, 1907. PRESENT : Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). The Secretary for Agri- culture. Mr. Jagger.. Mr. Hellier. Mr. Whitaker. Mr. Sauer. Mr. Slater. The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until Tuesday, at 10 a.m. Tuesday, 3rd September, 1907. PRESENT : Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). The Secretary for Mr. Hellier. Agriculture. Mr. Sauer. Mr. Whitaker. Mr. Slater. Mr. Malan. The Chairman submitted a draft report. The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until to-morrow, at 10 a.m. Wednesday, 4th September, 1907. PRESENT : Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). The Secretary for Agriculture. Mr. Hellier. Mr. Jagger. Mr. Malan. Mr. Sauer. Mr. Whitaker. Mr. Slater. The Committee proceeded to consider the draft report. Paragraph 3 of Part VI. put as follows : Members of School Boards resident more than ten miles from the place of meeting should, in the opinion of your Committee, be paid as members of Divisional Councils are paid, provided that where men belong to both bodies and the two meet on the same day, no payment should be made for attending the School Board, xl PROCEEDINGS OF COMMITTEE. Upon which the Committee divided. Ayes — 2. Noes — 5. The Chairman. The Secretary for Mr. Malan. Agriculture. Mr. Hellier. Mr. Jagger. Mr. Whitaker. Mr. Slater. Paragraph accordingly negatived. The Committee deliberated, and adjourned until to-morrow, at 12 noon. Thursday, 5th September, 1907. PRESENT Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). The Secretary for Agriculture. Mr. de Waal. Mr. Hellier. Mr. Malan. Mr. Whitaker. Mr. Slater. The Committee resumed consideration of the draft report, which was considered and adopted. Resolved : That the Chairman report accordingly. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, SELECT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION. Monday, 22nd July, 1907. PEESENT : Mr. FREMANTLE (Chairman). The Secretary for Agriculture. Mr. Hellier. Mr. Jagger. Mr. Malan. Mr. H. S. van Zyl. Mr. Whitaker. Mr. Slater. Mr. Athelstan Hall Cornish- Bowden, examined. 1 Chairman.'] You are the Surveyor- General of .**• „ ~ J .. -,--,- „ -^T Atnelatan the Cape of Good Hope ? — Yes. . Haiicomish- 2. We have been instructed to inquire into, Bowden- amongst other things, the Practical Land Sur- July 22, 1907. vevors' Examination lately held. I understand that you have some new arrangement with regard to that examination ? — Yes. 3. Could you explain to us what is the nature of the new arrangement, and also as to the control of the examination? — It was the outcome of a con- ference at Bloemfontein of the Surveyors-General of the different Colonies in South Africa, and the arrangement come to was that there should be reciprocity between the Cape Colony, the Trans- vaal and Rhodesia, and that the papers should be set in future by the Surveyors- General ot two of these Colonies, and the third should be a Mode- rator. That arrangement came into force during the last year, and the last examination held was the first under the new arrangement. [A. 9.— 1907.]— Education. A 2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr- 4. Then only the Surveyors- General of the Cape Haii coraish- Colony, the Transvaal and Rhodesia are serving Bowden. Qn this ?— YeS. July 22, 1907. 5. What was the date of the conference at Bloemfontein ?— The 19th and 20th February, 1906. 6. Then there is no reciprocity between the Cape Colony and the other Colonies, Natal and the Orange River Colony ? — There is none. 7. Was any attempt made to induce the other Colonies to join ? — Yes ; they were at the confer- ence. In fact the Survey or- General of the Orange River Colonv was Chairman. •/ 8. Could you tell us why they did not join ? — The reason was merely that they wanted as a first step towards reciprocity that all surveyors should be able to practice in Cape Colony, Transvaal and Rhodesia and we were not satisfied with that, because many of their surveyors are not suffi- ciently qualified ; we others determined that there must be some basis of qualification on which to establish reciprocity, and that the theoretical examination of the University should be that basis. Some of their surveyors passed no exami- nation and others had been admitted from Aus- tralia and elsewhere on an in-jquivalent examina- tion. 9. The ex-imi nation at present is practically an examination conducted by the three Surveyors- General ? — Yes. 10. Is the work actually done by them ? Do they set the papers ? — Personally ? 11. Yes? — I think the Surveyor-General of Rhodesia sot the two papers allotted to him ; and as far as 1 know the Transvaal Survey or- General set the Transvaal papers, but I am not sure. 1'^. Is it the procedure that the Surveyor-General appoints an Examiner who does the work, or is it that he sets papers and examines the answers him- self ? — L can only speak for myself. In my case I appointed Mr. Vos as Moderator, and he did all the work of Moderator, and the entire work in connec- tion with the ox a in illation. SELECT COMMITTEE OX EDUCATION. 3 13. If you were an Examiner, as I suppose you Mr. will be next year, you would probably delegate it Haii corm°h- to somebody else ? — I would probably delegate it to Mr. Vos. who has had a large experience in juiy 22, 1907. examination work. 14. With regard to the results — there has been some complaint about the results — could you tell us what the figures are for the results, the number of candidates, the number of passes, and so forth ? -I can tell you the number of candidates. 34 candidates were examined in Cape Town; 19 in the Transvaal and 2 in Ehodesia ; that is 55 ; 52 failed and 3 passed. 15. Do you have a principle of condoning, so that candidates who barely miss the adequate number of marks are allowed to pass ? — Well, the principle has not been observed in the past, because it was held by former Surveyors- General that you should not condone in a professional examination. 16. There was no condoning in this examination? — There was a slight condonement in respect of the second and third candidates. 17. So really one passed and two were condoned ? —Yes. 18. Is there anything unusual in the proportions that one should pass out of 55 candidates ?— ISA. Mr. Slater.] You might call it three ?- Yes, as far as Cape Colony is concerned, but not as far as the Transvaal is concerned, I am told. 19. Chairman.] Can you account for that? Isthere anything unusual to account for that ? — Yes, the papers were rather different from the usual papers in Cape Colony. "We have been inclined to set the same question over and over again ; in fact, in former years there were books — 1 do not know if they were printed — which were handed round to each candidate. I had one myself when I passed, showing the questions that had been set in the previous examinations. These questions covered .a very narrow range and the candidates used to get them up, and after they got up their questions MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE ;.,M.r- thoroughly. thcv were safe in passing. Now that Athelstan , 1*1 i ^ ^ • ^> Haii Cornish- has rather chaned, and the examination covers a range. -22. 1907. 20. Is the syllabus extended ? — Yes. 21. Were there formerly text books which covered the range of the examination ? - - No. This book I am telling you about took the place of a text book. 22. There is no text book now ? — No. 23. Was there a change in the syllabus ? — Yes. 24. What kind of a change ? — There was a change in the syllabus, not a very big change, but a slight change. 25. At what time was the change in the syllabus made, after your Conference at Bloemfontein ? — Yes. 26. The notice of the change in the syllabus was- about six months or so ? — Yes, about six months, I can tell you exactly when it was. It wTas on the 2nd August. 1906. that the notice was publishedT and the examination took place 011 the second Monday in March of the present year* 27. What is the length of the course as a general rule, of surveyors ? How long do they have to study to complete their course ? — I do not know. there is no fixed time. 28. Is there a theoretical and a practical exami- nation ? — Yes, there always has been. 29. Is it possible to do the whole course in say two years ? — It is possible to take your theoretical examination in December and pass your practical examination in the following March. 30. What was the system before you took over the practical examination, and who did it before ? -The Survey or- General has always done it. 31. And he has always pursued the same prac- tice of delegating the work to some competent man ? — Yes, ever since I can remember. The work before I took over the Office was done by Mr, Bosnian. 32. I suppose the profession of surveyors is crowded like other professions ? — Yts. SELECT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION. 33. So that there is a feeling in the profession ^JjJ*; that it would be desirable to reduce the number of entrants into the profession ? — I do not know. Nobody has ever approached me on the question juiy 22, 1907. that I can remember. 34. Was there any Minute signed by the Institute of Survevors of the Conference at Bloemfoiitein? — Yes. 35. Dealing with that subject ? — Yes. 36. Could you perhaps put it in ? — Yes. [ Copy 1 tanded in.] This was really a minute sent to the Surveyors- General, myself as well as the other Surveyors- General. I do not suppose it is privi- leged at all. That is for the Committee to decide. 37. Do you regard the present system of con- ducting the practical examinations as satisfactory? —Yes. 38. You do not think it would be possible to delegate it to the University, for instance ? — It would be possible for Cape Colony, but if we did that it would mean severing the link between other Colonies, which is looked upon as a great step in advance. 39. Supposing the other Colonies agreed, then it would not be severing the link ? — It was proposed at the Conference, and they were very decidedly against it. 40. The Surveyors- General were against it ?— Yes, in Natal and the Orange River Colony as well. 41. Mr. Ma Ian.] What were the reasons stated? -Tbey did not like the Cape University, as they looked upon it as a money-making concern ; that was the reason they gave at the Conference. 42. Did they express any opinion as to the in- efficiency of the examinations held by the University ? — No : the idea seemed to be amongst them that Cape Town University contrives to get always a certain number of passes so as to get the thing popular. 43. Chairman.] Does that mean that there is a certain amount of dissatisfaction as to the theoretical part of the examinations? — I do not 6 HIXUTES OF EVIDE.Vf'E TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. think there is any dissatisfaction ; they would not Haii corrlSh- like the whole thing to rest with the University. 44. Is it a fact that the University contrives July 22. 1907. always to have a certain number of passes in the theoretical examinations, irrespective of the merits of the candidates ? — I cannot say that. I am not giving this as my opinion. That is what I remember as being their reasons. 45. Mr. Malan.~\ You only examine the practical part of the Surveyors examination ? — Yes. 46. Is the theoretical part of the Transvaal and Orange Eiver Colony also examined by the Cape University ? — Yes. 47. Is there not. perhaps, a means by which you could co-operate with the University in the practical part also ? — As far as this Colony is concerned there is a means. It may be. however* if we found that the standard examination was not high enough, the University would think it was sufficiently high. Of course, a Surveyor- General who sees the work done can say whether the standard is high. There may be a difficulty in that respect. 48. Do you not think that when the practical part of the examination is conducted by the profession it would lead to a certain amount of trade unionism feeling, and that they would try to keep doAvn the number of passes ? — It should not. The Surveyors- General are entirely independent from the pro- fession, and their only possible object coiild be to raise the standard of efficiency in the profession. 49. But I understand that the Surveyors- General have no time to conduct the examination per- sonally, so they delegate it to somebody else, and the people to whom they delegate it may not per- haps have that sense of responsibility ? — I do not think they should delegate it to anyone outside their Office. I would never think of doing it at all events. 50. Who is Mr. Vos. to whom you delegate it ? — He is my professional assistant. SELECT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION. 7 51. Was he qualified here ? — Yes, he is qualified Mr. here, in the Transvaal and in the Orange Elver nainSSL ColOliy. Bowden. 52. Mi: 8latct:~] But he onlv acted as Moderator ? july 2Ti9oz —Yes. 53. TJte Secretary for Agriculture.'} How many went up for that examination in Cape Town ? — 84. 54. How many passed ? — Two. One passed from the Transvaal. Nineteen went up from the Trans- vaal. 55. The thirty- two who failed in Cape Town, would they have passed in the former examina- tion if it had been exactly as it was ? You made some changes. Would those 32 have passed under the old system ? — When the papers were easier? 56. Yes? — Probably they Would have all passed. I do not remember a single man in the old days who ever failed. 57. They always passed? — Yes, they all passed. I believe. 58. Mr. Jay get:] t Which do you, as a matter of fact, think best ? — I think it better that it should go oil as it is now. 59. Do you think the tendency would be to reduce the requirements ? — What requirements ? 60. To reduce the standard which is required to pass ? — There is that danger. If the University were to take the examination over, they would probably ask the Surveyors - General to set the papers. If they did not, we consider, at all events, that Surveyors-General are as fully qualified, or. perhaps, more qualified, to set papers than out- siders. It is a practical examination, and not an examination in theory. 61. You always have an official of your own Office ?— Yes. 02. Have they the same in other Colonies or outsiders ? — As far as I know, the Surveyor- General of the Transvaal sets his own papers, and I believe Mr. Atherston. the Survey or- General of Rhodesia, sets his own papers, as they were in his hand-writing. MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. 63. Would there be that danger to try and keep - them out if they brought in an outsider as f_?°wden< Examiner to set the papers ? — If they brought in a jniyi'2, mo-. Surveyor practising in the Colony, there might be that feeling. It is quite possible. 64. Is there any object in setting a stiff paper ?— The Surveyors-General would have no possible object in setting a stiff paper except to increase the efficiency. 65. Mr. Slater. ~] Do you think the original paper was too easy '? — Yes. It did not cover a sufficiently wide range. As I said just now the range was too narrow. The questions set in the examinations were mostly contained in the book which I men- tioned just now as being in circulation amongst the candidates, and if they prepared the hundred examples or so contained in the book, they were able to answer the questions which were going to bo set in any particular year. 66. Was the failure in all papers or in only one ? — I think that in that respect it was dis- tributed over all the papers. I would not say for certain. Perhaps in one paper more candidates failed than in others ; the fourth candidate for example failed to get his 30 per cent, in that paper. 67. By whom was that set ? — I could not say ; I think by Rhodesia. 68. Was it fair play to these people to make drastic changes at so short a notice ? — Under the circumstances I think it was fair, because we took very good care that the questions involved in the change were of the very simplest order. In fact the questions on geology, which was an important addition to the syllabus, were such that anybody in the street could answer them and score over them and make marks ; they were certainly easy. 69. By whose authority are these papers set. Is it by the Institute of Surveyors ? — No, by the Sur- veyor-General. 70. How long does it take to prepare for the theoretical examination as the University sets it ? — I have no idea at nil. SELECT COMMITTEE OX EDUCATION. 9 71. Not from your own experience V — I left k *Ir- i -, -i j? T *. • Jt *j. ^ • Atnelstan school some years before I went m for it. and m Hail comish- my spare time I read sufficiently to pass. My Bowden. school experience was one term. I went to St. juiy 22, 1907. Andrew's College for one term, and passed after that. 72. Mr. Van Zi/L] Some candidate wrote and asked for his marks, and he was told that he could not get them ? — It is a fact that many candidates have written for their marks and have been refused. 73. Why were -they refused ? — Because it would be a bad principle to let them have their marks. It is not necessary. Supposing a candidate were two or three under the minimum required ; he would feel very uncomfortable, and would begin writing and trying to get it condoned. He has been told what percentage of the whole he has obtained, and how he did in the different papers, but he has not been given his marks. 74. The principle adopted by the University was that any candidate could after a certain time obtain his marks V — I believe they found it answered very badly ; they are always intending to change it. 75. Anyhow that is the principle ? — In the University I believe it is so, but not in other examining bodies. 76. I understand that it has been a grievance with these people seeing that it has been done in every other examination ? — It is done in every examination. 77. Chairman.'] Are you familiar with the work- ing of the University examination in law. Do you know the principle on which it is worked V — No. 78. Supposing the University did manage its examination and delegated it to the Surveyor- General, as you say, you still would feel an objection to that arrangement ? — Not a very great objection, provided that we could tell the Univer- sity when the standard required to be raised, and 10 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE Mr. provided it did not affect in any way a very - desirable arrangement which has been, come to Bowden. with the other Colonies. July 22^ IDG:. 79. Yon say that in past years practically all candidates have passed the practical examination ? —Up to a certain year, but not in the last three or four years. I cannot say for how many years. For several years I understand that about 33 per cent, have passed in this Colony. 80. Is that recently ? — When saying that practi- cally all candidates passed, I am talking about years prior to that in which I joined the office, Viz., 1903. 81. Could you not give us in figures what were the number of successful candidates in recent years ? — Yes. but not now. I will obtain the information, and hand it in. 82. Could you give us them as for ten years ?— Yes. 83. The number of candidates, and the number of passes ? — Yes, I Avill get their.. 84. In the practical examination ? — Yes, I will give you that. Col. Charles Preston Crcwe, C.B., M.L.A.. examined. coi. Charles 85. Chairman.] You are the Secretary for fcS^cS*, Agriculture P— Yes. M.L^A. 86. I observe in your .first letter you suggest July 22,1907. that the University should not undertake the School Leaving Certificate Examination ? — Yes. 87. You say that it is a proposal by the Univer- sity to impose another examination 011 the schools. How is that, because I understand it is not another examination V — From, what I can gather from that letter, the School Leaving Certificate examination was another examination additional to the Matriculation examination of the University, and was also in addition to the School Higher, to which I objected. 88. In your letter you say that your Department does not approve of the starting of a School Leav- ing: Certificate examination ? — Yes. In the last SELECT COMMITTEE OX EDTCATIOX. 11 letter from Sir C. Abercrombie Smith, the Vice- Chancellor of the University, it will be seen that crewe, C.B., ho proceeded to submit the whole matter to the Committee on the School Leaving Certificate, with July 22, 1907. instructions to report to the Council on the sub- ject after consulting with the Education Depart- ments concerned, the consultation to be held on the occasion of the Inter- Colonial Conference. Of course I have had no intimation as to what has been the result of that Conference. You will notice that the correspondence is not addressed to me. It is addressed to the Superintendent-General of Education. As a matter of fact I practically had no official correspondence on the matter, except where I initiated the correspondence. 89. In your second letter you say that the University would do well to keep the Matricula- tion and to start a School Leaving Certificate examination on the same standard ? — No, no, not on the same standard. In that letter I referred to a co-ordinate examination, this being effected by widening the present Matriculation Examina- tion, making such a subject as Latin optional ; in other words, as I said in my first letter. I wanted to see the scope of the Matriculation Examination widened. 90. In your first letter you say that the Univer- sity ought to give up the School Leaving Certificate Examination, and in the second letter you say that it ought to go on ? — I suggested that the School Higher Examination should be done away with, and a co-ordinate examination, by widening the Matriculation, should be substituted. This and the present Matriculation seems to be all that is necessary for the future. I have always held, and it is still my opinion, that the University should not interfere with school examinations. Of course, Matriculation examinations should be conducted by the University. 91. If that was the original intention of the University, there must have been some misappre- hension ? — I do not think there was any such intention. \'2 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE COL Charles 92. I gather that there was ? — You must remem- ci5refc?B., Der that I have been working a good deal in the M-.L.A. ' dark. Officially I have got no communications at 22^ 1907. all. Of course, the Superintendent- General is a Member of the University Council, and one of the Government nominees on that Council. 93. Mr. Ma Ian.] You have just stated that Dr. Muir is a member of the University Council, and one of the Government nominees on that Council. Do you know as a fact that there has been a good deal of friction between Dr. Muir and the Univer- sity Council lately V — I should not say that. I think there has been some differences of opinion between Dr. Muir and the University Council with regard to School examinations, but I am certainly not aware of any friction existing between them. 94. Do you know for a fact that Dr. Muir never or hardly ever attends the meetings of the Univer- sity Council ? — Of course that is not within my knowledge. That is a question for Dr. Muir to answer. I know that he is not what one would call a very regular attendant at those meetings, and that is all I can say. 95. Has this friction not been made known to you officially in your capacity as Minister ? — Offi- cially no. I have had a statement made to me that there had been differences of opinion, and a complaint was in one instance made to me that the Superintendent-General was not there on a par- ticular occasion, but nothing beyond that. There had been no actual complaint. 96. Have you used your influence or your good offices to bring about a better understanding be- tween the Superintendent- General of Education and the University Council ? — I have often seen Sir C. Abercrombie Smith, but I have never had occasion to bring about a better understanding, because I know of no friction. 97. Do you consider it desirable to have this fric- tion between two public educational bodies of the country ?— I have already said that I do not know of any friction existing between Dr. Muir as SELECT COMMITTEE OX EDUCATION. 13 Superintendent- General of Education and the University Council. There have certainly been differences of opinion with regard, to examinations. 98. Dr. Muir, as Superintendent- General of Edu- July 22, 1907. cation, is one of the nominees of the University Council, and he is, officially of course, under your Administration. Have you suggested to him at any time that it would be advisable for him to attend the meetings of the University Council more regularly ? — Really I should not care to interfere with a Government nominee in that manner, simply because he happens to be a Govern- ment nominee. I am sure that Dr. Muir's own feeling is the same as my own that the two educational bodies should work harmoniously together. 99. Have you at any time suggested that to Dr. Muir ? — I should not go to him simply because he is a Government nominee and make such a suggestion, and say, " I think you ought to attend the meeting of the University Council which is to be held to-morrow." 100. Have you not found, as Minister in charge of your Department, that the two educational bodies, the University Council on the one side and the Education Department on the other side, do not work together ? — I have not found that to be the case. 101. Not to your knowledge ? — No. 102. You know as a fact that the Superinten- dent-General of Education is irregular in his attendance at meetings of the University Council ? — He is not what I would call a very regular attendant. I believe he has attended since I have been in office. 103. Do you know whether he takes now the same active part in University matters which he took a few years ago ? He is not Ydce-Chancellor now ? — No, he is not. 104. Mr, Jagger.~\ Do you not somewhat modify your position in your second letter when you refer to the School Higher Examination being done 14 MINUTES OF EVIDENCE TAKEN BEFORE THE coi. Charles away with '? It would scorn that in your second B., letter you have modified the views expressed in M.L.A. your iirst letter ? — As I have said, I have been a 2^1907. little bit in the dark, as to the intentions of the University Council, but I do not think my second letter modifies the opinions expressed in the first letter, — for I referred in my second letter to my first one and to the examination saying " on the lines suggested in my former letter." 105. You are quite agreeable that examinations on the level of Matriculation examinations should be left to the University ? — Yes. 106. Have you not noticed the examination for the School Leaving Certificate to be generally of the standard of the Matriculation examination, the subjects being identical ? Have you not rather overlooked that ? That rather raises it to the level of the Matriculation ? — That matter was discussed by the Committee at the Conference. I was in the dark as to whether that would be carried at all, and my suggestion all along was to widen the scope of the Matriculation examination, not that another examination should be substituted. 107. That resolution was passed. In the letter from the Registrar of the University he says, " At a meeting of the University Council, held on August 17th. a report was submitted by the Special Committee appointed on the 3rd Novem- ber, 1905, to consider the desirability of the institution by the University of a School Leaving Certificate, and the following resolutions were adopted," -inter alia : — "3. That the examination for this certificate (School Leaving Certificate) be generally of the standard of the Matriculation Exami- nation, and that in subjects which are common to both examinations the papers be identical." and ifc struck me on reading those letters which you have put in that you had rather modified your position in the second letter ? — What I SELECT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION. 15 wanted was the abolition of the School Higher and the widening of the Matriculation Examina- tion, and that the University should cease from M.L.A. setting school examinations. July 22, 1907. 