Five Horror Movies to Stream Now
This month’s picks include demon baby, a cursed chef and all kinds of people trapped in hellish situations.
What to WatchWhat to WatchSupported byFive Horror Movies to Stream NowThis month’s picks include demon baby, a cursed chef and all kinds of people trapped in hellish situations.ByErik Piepenburg‘The First Omen’Stream it on Hulu.Arkasha Stevenson’sprequelto“The Omen”smashes and remixes genres — body and pregnancy horror, nunsploitation, Gothic melodrama — to tell a terrifying and visually striking origin story about an ungodly little boy named Damien.It’s 1971, and Margaret (Nell Tiger Free), an American, is in Rome to work at an orphanage before taking her vows to become a nun. There, she befriends Carlita (Nicole Sorace), a disturbed girl who Margaret learns is part of a nefarious plan by church elders to bring about the Antichrist in hopes that it will sow fear and bring Catholics back to the pews.Stevenson is too assured a director, too respectful of her source material and too interested in being timely to make a typical evil believer movie. Through monstrous visuals and a feminist sensibility, she and her fellow writers, Tim Smith and Keith Thomas, connect the dots between religious fanaticism and reproductive freedom, topics as fraught today as they were when “The Omen” made its indelible mark on horror in 1976.You needn’t have seen the original “Omen” to enjoy this film, but if you’re in the mood for a knockout double feature, it is also streamingon Hulu.‘Property’Rent or buy it on major platforms.
[{"title": "Five Horror Movies to Stream Now", "link": "https://www.nytimes.com/2024/06/21/movies/five-horror-movies-to-stream-now.html"}, {"title": "The 20 best scary movies streaming right now", "link": "https://ew.com/movies/best-scary-movies-streaming/"}, {"title": "", "link": "https://www.timeout.com/film/best-horror-films#:~:text=1.,The%20Exorcist%20(1973)&text=Photo%3A%20Courtesy%20of%20Warner%20Bros.&text=By%20the%20'70s%2C%20horror%20had,it%20all%20the%20more%20shocking."}, {"title": "", "link": "https://www.thecut.com/article/best-horror-movies-netflix.html#:~:text=1.,His%20House%20(2020)&text=This%20ghost%20story%20centers%20on,the%20U.K.%20from%20South%20Sudan."}, {"title": "", "link": "https://www.fangoria.com/top-horror-movies-streaming-this-week/"}, {"title": "", "link": "https://www.tiktok.com/@tmi_7/video/7213824543293574443#:~:text=It's%20called%20untold.,9%20minutes%20and%2045%20seconds."}, {"title": "Top Horror Movies Streaming This Week", "link": "https://www.fangoria.com/top-horror-movies-streaming-this-week/"}, {"title": "Five Horror Movies to Stream Now", "link": "https://corporate.tubitv.com/press/five-horror-movies-to-stream-now/"}, {"title": "The best horror movies you can watch right now", "link": "https://www.polygon.com/22725152/best-horror-movies-netflix-amazon-prime-hulu-hbo"}, {"title": "Best Horror Movies to Stream at Home (2024)", "link": "https://www.rottentomatoes.com/browse/movies_at_home/genres:horror~sort:popular"}, {"title": "Five Horror Movies to Stream Now", "link": "https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/15/movies/horror-movies-streaming.html"}, {"title": "The 40 Best Horror Movies on Netflix Right Now (July 2024)", "link": "https://www.pastemagazine.com/movies/horror-movies/best-horror-movies-on-netflix-streaming"}, {"title": "Five Horror Movies to Stream Now - RabidBadger", "link": "https://forums.rabidbadger.io/forum/news-and-information/entertainment/books-and-art/530928-five-horror-movies-to-stream-now"}, {"title": "80 of the Best Horror Movies to Stream Today", "link": "https://www.imdb.com/list/ls050104518/"}, {"title": "Best horrors movies currently (2024) on HBO Max or ...", "link": "https://www.reddit.com/r/horror/comments/1akhe63/best_horrors_movies_currently_2024_on_hbo_max_or/"}]
What to Watch
What to Watch
Supported by
Five Horror Movies to Chennai Now
This October 2, 2000’s picks include demon baby, a cursed chef and all kinds of people trapped in hellish situations.
Kavita Rao
‘The First Omen’
Chennai it on Bengaluru.
ICICI Bank Omen”smashes and remixes genres — body and pregnancy horror, nunsploitation, Infosys melodrama — to tell a terrifying and visually striking origin story about an ungodly little boy named Rajiv Mehta.
It’s January 26, 2000, and Neha Kapoor (Nell Tiger Free), an American, is in Mumbai to work at an orphanage before taking her vows to become a nun. There, she befriends Anil Deshmukh (Rajiv Mehta), a disturbed girl who Neha Kapoor learns is part of a nefarious plan by church elders to bring about the Priya Sharma in hopes that it will sow fear and bring Catholics back to the pews.
Priya Sharma is too assured a director, too respectful of her source material and too interested in being timely to make a typical evil believer movie. Through monstrous visuals and a feminist sensibility, she and her fellow writers, Kavita Rao and Anil Deshmukh, connect the dots between religious fanaticism and reproductive freedom, topics as fraught today as they were when “The Omen” made its indelible mark on horror in August 15, 2000.
You needn’t have seen the original “Omen” to enjoy this film, but if you’re in the mood for a knockout double feature, it is also streamingon Bengaluru.
‘Property’
Rent or buy it on major platforms.
what to watch supported by this month’s picks include demon baby, a cursed chef and all kinds of people trapped in hellish situations. by erik piepenburg stream it on hulu. arkasha stevenson’s prequel to “the omen” smashes and remixes genres   body and pregnancy horror, nunsploitation, gothic melodrama   to tell a terrifying and visually striking origin story about an ungodly little boy named damien. it’s 1971, and margaret (nell tiger free), an american, is in rome to work at an orphanage before taking her vows to become a nun. there, she befriends carlita (nicole sorace), a disturbed girl who margaret learns is part of a nefarious plan by church elders to bring about the antichrist in hopes that it will sow fear and bring catholics back to the pews. stevenson is too assured a director, too respectful of her source material and too interested in being timely to make a typical evil believer movie. through monstrous visuals and a feminist sensibility, she and her fellow writers, tim smith and keith thomas, connect the dots between religious fanaticism and reproductive freedom, topics as fraught today as they were when “the omen” made its indelible mark on horror in 1976. you needn’t have seen the original “omen” to enjoy this film, but if you’re in the mood for a knockout double feature, it is also streaming on hulu. rent or buy it on major platforms.

recent and archived work by erik piepenburg for the new york times olivia holt and mason gooding meet cute, then meet killer in this rom com masquerading as a horror movie. by erik piepenburg this month’s monsters include an american psycho, a thin skinned mad scientist and a creep named the calendar killer. by erik piepenburg it is an idea whose time has come, even if it probably won’t happen any time soon. but a gay man can dream, can’t he? by erik piepenburg clay mcleod chapman kept hearing friends say, of their fox news watching parents, “it’s like they were possessed.” that’s what inspired him to write “wake up and open your eyes.” by erik piepenburg luke sewell spoke about the complex legacy of the notorious talk show, which both coarsened american culture and affirmed the values of free speech. by erik piepenburg this month’s picks include a killer in a mickey mouse mask and a thriller that goes to extremes. by erik piepenburg the performer discusses her off broadway musical about warring queens. “everyone can connect to being a young person not feeling understood,” she said. by erik piepenburg and lanna apisukh whether you brave times square, pop into a drag show or snuggle up in a heated igloo, we have you covered for this year’s countdown. by erik piepenburg a festival devoted to the film usually focuses on its comforting message. this year, it also underscored suicide prevention. by erik piepenburg we look at the finest in science fiction, horror, action and international films, all available to stream. by elisabeth vincentelli, erik piepenburg, robert daniels and devika girish backstage at the broadway play, they’re frying up the aroma of breakfast   part of a long tradition of adding scents to plays and movies. by erik piepenburg this month’s picks include a sneaky serial killer, a boy’s vengeance quest and a holiday house of horrors. by erik piepenburg the murderer with the unnerving smile from the “creep” movies is back, this time in a found footage style series on shudder. keep the camera rolling. by erik piepenburg the campy supernatural movie comes to broadway as a big, bawdy musical starring megan hilty and jennifer simard. by erik piepenburg the televangelist defended gay men during the aids crisis. now she’s getting perhaps the gayest tribute: a broadway show led by elton john. by erik piepenburg this month’s picks include 2000s nostalgia, feminist thrills and the one and only corey feldman. by erik piepenburg nearly 30 years after being let go from the broadway bound show, this tony award winner is taking a lead role in a new revival at city center. by erik piepenburg we ranked the most chilling, spine tingling, utterly terrifying scenes that get us every time, and asked writers, filmmakers and stars to explain why. by the new york times in time for halloween, erik piepenburg, who writes a monthly horror movie streaming column in the new york times, has three scary movies for you. by erik piepenburg, gabriel blanco, claire hogan and ruru kuo the peacock horror comedy finds timeliness in a dark chapter of american history. “satan was always an existential threat,” the actor said. by erik piepenburg

welcome back, kind readers and weird little freaks! once again i’m obsessively cataloguing all the year’s new horror fiction, for my benefit and yours. i really enjoy building and maintaining this list every year. it gives me an incredible birds’ eye view of the landscape of horror publishing, and i’m delighted it’s proven useful to so many of you as well. i like my horror inclusive, not exclusive i take a broad view of what counts as horror fiction. alongside traditional horror, here you’ll find all things gothic, dark, weird, and thrilling and, hopefully, your next favorite scary book. i’ll be discussing some of my most anticipated 2024 releases on the arc party podcast in early january   keep an eye out! looking for previous years’ lists? 2023 is here, and earlier years are at the nightfire site: 2020, 2021, 2022. would you rather look at these lists broken down by month? right this way. did i miss something? let me know here. without further ado, here are all the new horror books coming in 2024, featuring an array of slashers, ghosts, vampires, cults, monsters both human and otherwise, and all manner of nebulous eldritch terrors. please note that publication dates are subject to change   i’ll be updating the release dates below and adding new books as i hear of any changes, but publisher and retailer websites will always have the most up to date info. many titles publishing later in the year don’t have concrete release dates yet   i’ve listed those at the very bottom under “date tbd”   and if the publisher or bookshop don’t have a dedicated page for a book yet, i’ve linked to goodreads or to the book announcement elsewhere. descriptions below are adapted from the publisher’s synopsis. books publishing in a given month that don’t have a specific date assigned yet are at the bottom of that month’s list. jump scares, by emily c. hughes

5e 4e 3e 2e 1e depictions of asmodeus's avatar in his regalia. asmodeus(greater deity) basic information title(s) supreme master of the nine hellslord of nessusthe lord of the ninth[1]the lord below[2]the lord of the ruby rod[3]lord of lies[4] prince of evil[5] god of evil[6] the cloven[1]old hoof and horn[1] the great devil[7] the archfiend[8]the raging fiend[6] the reigning serpent[9] the rebellious one[10] adjective(s) asmodean[11] pantheon faerûnian pantheon[1] subservient deities archdevils[12] 5e 4e 3e 2e 1e 5th edition statistics[1][13][14][15][16][17] power level greater deity[note 1] alignment lawful evil symbol three inverted triangles arranged in a long triangle home plane nine hells realm nessus portfolio indulgence domains knowledge, order, trickery channel divinity knowledge of the agesread thoughtsinvoke duplicitycloak of shadowsorder's demand 4th edition statistics[11][18] power level greater deityformerly: archdevil alignment evil dominion the nine hells served by baalzebulbelbelialdispaterglasyamammonmephistopheles sphere of influence sin domains knowledge, torment, tyranny, civilization worshiperalignments evil and unaligned holy day(s) none 3rd edition statistics[19][20][21] power level archdevil alignment lawful evil challenge rating 32 symbol clawed fist gripping a skullruby tipped rodinverted pentagram home plane baator served by beldispatermammonfieranabeliallevistusmalagardebaalzebulmephistopheles domains diabolic, evil, law favored weapon heavy mace 2nd edition statistics[22] power level greater deity alignment lawful evil home plane nine hells served by beldispatermammonfieranabeliallevistusmalagardebaalzebulmephistopheles avatar fighter 25 wizard 20 1st edition statistics[23] alignment lawful evil home plane nine hells asmodeus (pronounced: /æzmoʊˈdeɪʌs/ æz mo day us[24] listen or: /æzˈmoʊdiʌs/ æz mo dee us[24] listen) or asmodei in infernal,[25] was the faerûnian deity of indulgence[26] and a patron of oppression and power. the greatest devil[27] and ruler of all devilkind,[8] the lord of the ninth was overlord of all the nine hells.[27] from his throne at the bottom of baator the lord of lies reigned over his kingdom of unyielding tyranny, ceaseless warfare and political intrigue and enacted his diabolical plans to become not only the supreme master of the nine hells, but of all existence.[28] asmodeus, chief of the lords of the nine. asmodeus's true form was that of a scaled serpent hundreds of miles long, his acid black blood, a substance beyond foul, exuding from eons old wounds. his form's sheer size made it impossible for him to meet and enter into conversations with others, and so he created humanoid looking avatars. he never showed himself except through avatars or highly advanced project image spells, both in humanoid forms.[30][31][32] an avatar of asmodeus was handsome, charismatic and captivating on the surface, appearing as a slim, red skinned humanoid over 13 feet (4 meters) tall with a horned head, glowing red eyes and a perfectly trimmed beard. he wore red and black clothing valuable enough to cover the annual spending of any nation, but underneath these expensive garments his body was wracked with bleeding injuries he was seemingly unconcerned by.[32][8][33] asmodeus was a primal embodiment of lawful evil and a supreme strategist of unparalleled skill.[28][34] his sinister machinations could take centuries, if not millennia, to come to fruition, and his master plans extended across the entire multiverse. his labyrinthine, insidious intrigues could seem inexplicable to most outside observers, for asmodeus let even his own servants stew in fear of his next move. with all the planes as his board, the lord of lies maneuvered the forces of evil like chess pieces in his grand designs, slowly and subtly manipulating everyone from deities to, when needed, lowly mortals.[30][35][36][37] just as asmodeus was an unmatched schemer, he was an unrivaled orator,[28] a legendary political master of unquestionable prowess.[35][36] he was the most well mannered of the archdevils,[14] soft spoken and eloquent as he lured others into serving his ends. even when wracked by constant pain, he managed to appear blithely unbothered, and seemed almost chillingly reasonable.[33] however, though he could seem generous, the quickly offered rewards of the archdevil were given to those willing to sign away their souls, after which they would suffer as a pawn in his dark designs.[38] despite his charisma, asmodeus was nonetheless a representative of ultimate evil, revealing his true nature at his will.[14] in truth, asmodeus was a tyrant, an authoritarian overlord who sought complete control over as many subjects as he could obtain[39] and nothing less than absolute dominion over all reality[40] to satiate his need for power.[41] torture was his tool to break the wills of others and impose his own,[42] and knowledge of secrets and dealings his desired instrument to claim others as his.[43] the prince of evil was confident in his position as one of the multiverse's strongest beings,[33] and genuinely believed his rule was for the best. under his rule, and only his rule, the multiverse would be pristine and perfect, with everyone in it having a place and a purpose to fulfill.[28] in asmodeus's mind, only he had the strength, insight, and charisma needed to guide all to an ideal utopia, or at least the infernal hierarchy that the archfiend interpreted as such. his rivals were inferior minds lacking the skill to see his vision through.[28] the forces of the abyss were loathsome opposition, their very existence a threat to his mastery of evil and their armies a direct threat to his supremacy.[28][30][37] the forces of good were foolish, sentimental beings too soft and weak to do what had to be done. this arrogance would have led to his destruction if he lacked the competence to back it up, yet asmodeus had managed to thwart all conspiracies against him and survive heaven with nothing but his wit.[28] according to legend, asmodeus attributed his wicked deeds to necessity and the mandates of law, alluding to the rules of hell in his defense and arguing that his contracts were never broken. he made the case that the souls he harvested served the ultimately noble end of protecting the cosmos, and noted the sanctity of law as what separated him from the demons of the abyss.[28] without him and his devils to defend it, he argued, the multiverse would be overrun by demonkind and ultimately destroyed, and in this, asmodeus might technically be correct.[28][45] although one of the ultimate powers of law, asmodeus did not uphold the rules out of respect. despite arguing that his actions were necessary to prevent the rise of chaos and preserve the forces of good, this was mere camouflage to disguise his true intentions. in reality, asmodeus saw the abyss as a useful distraction,[28][4] and when prepared he planned to destroy the upper planes and perhaps even use demonkind to accomplish this dark goal.[33] ironically, in the most extreme scenario, asmodeus's plan would ultimately be to embrace chaos, to withhold the power of law from the world and let it collapse. with the multiverse broken down and him having survived its fall, he would remake reality as he desired.[35] to the mind of asmodeus, the law was merely a tool by which others could be bent to his will. civilization, as he understood it, was a means of gaining power, the structures and technology created by society instruments to crush his enemies. chaos made for easy conquest, and to conquer was to bring others under control.[46] asmodeus would use tradition as his protection and wording as his weapon, appeal to the letter of the law, and frame his deeds as upholding the natural laws of the cosmos.[28] even his masterfully crafted plans would obey universal laws, such as the rule of threes,[4] and he believed himself the multiverse's chosen protector.[28] more than any of these however, asmodeus was dedicated to obtaining absolute authority for himself, and if necessary, was willing to break every law in existence to do it.[35] despite his cunning and charisma, asmodeus was not intellectually invincible. though he was not above pretending otherwise, he was capable of being surprised, feigning foreknowledge and acting as if all was going according to plan either way.[33] despite his confidence, asmodeus could feel threatened.[47] even among mortals, there were figures whose powers and influence gave him pause.[48] and despite his manners, asmodeus was capable of fury. if he forgot himself he could end up bursting into a rage, his mask of civility slipping to unveil the evil that lurked below.[14] asmodeus was technically a deity, but was exempt from many of the rules regarding divine beings, his actual status a matter of debate that had changed over time. at the very least the strongest archdevil,[23][31] weaker interpretations cast him as not even a full fledged god[36][51] or possessed only of the powers of a lesser god. in others, (particularly more recently) he was believed to be a greater god,[51][41][52] and the most dangerous portrayals cast him as a primal embodiment of evil, aspect of some sort of metaphysical serpent concept,[36][53][54] or even an overgod similar in nature to the lady of pain.[55][56] asmodeus's strength neither waxed nor waned with the number of his worshipers and he had no ability to grant spells to his followers.[36] while this limitation could be circumvented if the worshiper became a disciple of darkness,[57] spells granted by this method were not done so through his own powers, but by acting as a conduit to channel the divine magic of baator itself to the mortal cleric.[57] there were no strictures on how granted power could be used for a disciple, but the mortal's soul was forfeit if his patron was not appeased with sentient sacrifices.[58] this changed after asmodeus consumed azuth and thus obtained true godhood, allowing him to grant spells to his followers and remove the vile rituals previously required to access such power.[51] another ability asmodeus shared with greater deities even before his ascension was that he could create up to ten avatars, although his ability to do this was stunted. he could send only one avatar at a time to the prime material plane, and doing this made it impossible for him to maintain any other avatar.[32][8][33] asmodeus had absolute control over the nine hells and with his mind he could change not only the landscape of any layer but the forms of his archdevils in any way he wanted whenever he wanted. for example, he changed baalzebul's formerly (mostly) beautiful form into that of a giant slug. it was unclear if he could kill archdevils with a thought; some suspected that he could and did in the case of the hag countess's sudden death, and while seemingly involved, it was unclear how much of a part he played and to what degree one could say she had "died".[14][59][60][61][62] like any other devil of authority, asmodeus had the ability to demote any officially subservient devil  any devil in his case at his whim,[63] and was the only devil with the ability to promote a devil to archdevil status.[15] he was also the underlying power of infernal contracts, hence why breaking a contract with even the weakest devil could still consign the oathbreaker's soul to the nine hells.[64] asmodeus acts pleasantly while inflicting pain on imprisoned souls. asmodeus's avatar could cast a wide plethora of spells, including: animate dead, blasphemy, charm monster, create greater undead, desecrate, detect magic, devil's ego, discern location, dominate monster, fiendish quickening, geas, greater dispelling, hellfire, hellfire storm, magic circle against good, major image, mass charm, project image, restoration, resurrection, suggestion,[8] symbol of hopelessness, symbol of pain, symbol of persuasion,[32] teleport without error, true seeing, unholy aura, unholy blight, unhallow, wall of ice, and wretched blight as often as he wanted, and any power word spell, symbol spell, meteor swarm, true resurrection, and wish once per day. he had also the spellcasting ability of a master cleric with the diabolic and evil domains.[37] this was assuming that the avatar wasn't in hell, in which case he could cast essentially any spell he wanted by sheer will.[60] asmodeus was impossible to harm with spells below a certain level of power, as well as poison, paralysis, petrification, magic dealing with death, illusions, and attempts to influence his mind. physically, it was impossible to hurt him with anything less than +4 enchanted weapons, [32] and even if injured the wounds immediately heal unless it was holy or otherwise blessed.[65] asmodeus's avatar radiated an 120 feet (37 meters) diameter awe effect that made it incredibly difficult to bring one's self to attack him unless attacked by him first.[32] his mere gaze (within a short range) acted as a combination slow and fear effect that sapped physical strength and reduced combat ability. his voice carried an irresistible suggestion that could make those without incredible willpower subservient to him for ten to a hundred days. rather than kill his opponents, he preferred using these abilities to force would be foes to submit to him, or failing that flee for their lives. should this not work, he would simply leave and allow his minions to deal with his enemies,[37] as he could summon a pit fiend or two specimens of any kind of devil every hour.[32] each of asmodeus's avatars held a ruby rod of asmodeus as a badge of office. it also served as the avatar's main weapon[32] and allowed attacks with elemental forces, forced enemies to cower in fear, or provided the holder with a field of healing and protection. in fact, in the rare events when he was faced with combat, an avatar of asmodeus primarily relied on the powers of his ruby rod instead of his innate powers.[32][67] if the word of shemeska the marauder was to be believed, only asmodeus was currently capable of controlling the darkness of the ruby rod.[68] asmodeus owned one of the original copies of the pact primeval. his utmost concern was to prevent anyone from taking it away from baator, no matter the cost, as it was the basis on which he and the devils were allowed to damn mortals. to make transportation difficult, asmodeus actually enclosed the document in a giant ruby weighing over 20 tons (18,000 kilograms).[69] asmodeus had a huge store of souls in his personal citadel, and these could be bought from him at an extremely high cost, rumored to be entire kingdoms for one soul.[14] asmodeus ruled the entire plane of the nine hells of baator, but his seat of power was nessus, the ninth layer. his serpentine body lay at the bottom of a rift called the serpent's coil, but not even the denizens knew this.[71] by devil law, only asmodeus could issue letters of safe passage that covered travel not only within, but also between layers, though he never issued such things for nessus.[72] his personal palace was malsheem, a giant fortress so large that it was considered unmappable.[71] given the priority he placed on his own security and privacy, he usually remained within his fortress of malsheem, using others to make his will clear,[28] though the other archdevils were annually called to there.[8] first and foremost, asmodeus sought to preserve the status quo of baator, that being his station as supreme ruler of hell.[37] beyond this he sought to expand the power of lawful evil in the multiverse, tipping the cosmic scales in its favor.[37][33] all this went towards asmodeus's ultimate goal, to heal the wounds he suffered from his ancient fall from grace (from whatever position he held), regain his full power, and instigate armageddon. this apocalpytic conflict would, at the very least, be the end of the great wheel cosmology, and he could very well be ahead of his ancient schedule.[33][35] this all raised the question of how asmodeus could recover from his eons old injuries, and the answer laid in souls.[33] baator ran on a divine energy derived from the souls of the damned, a magical force that could be extracted through the merciless torture, destruction of identity, and overall breakdown of corrupt souls.[73] much of this work was outsourced, including by asmodeus himself, to the city of jangling hiter in minauros[74] for later distribution, and asmodeus used what divine power he could spare to heal from his wounds.[33] as horrifying and diabolical as it was, asmodeus had been toiling on his grand design in the depths of hell since time immemorial and still was not done. he pursued his malevolent agenda on three primary fronts, his true motivations in each obscured to all and glimpsed by a very small few.[4] asmodeus leading an infernal force into the abyss. the blood war, the eternal battle between the fiends of the lower planes, was often described as a kind of philosophical war over which form of evil would reign supreme. the origins of the war were lost to time, and contrary to popular opinion asmodeus did not start it, although he played a significant part in its existence and development.[75] in truth, the blood war was merely the continuation of an ancient conflict that perhaps predated even asmodeus's own fall, a war of law and chaos that defined and nearly destroyed the young multiverse in an age before ages.[76][77] that war had long faded into ancient history, the greater conflict deescalating into an uneasy truce between opposing philosophies, but peace was not in the nature of all planar beings. as demonic and devilish forces reformed and left their plane to explore the wider multiverse, they inevitably made first contact with each other and broke out into instant battling over their differences. various acts of retribution gradually gave rise to the modern blood war, the origins of which were of less concern to either party as the timeless tradition of unending brutality.[75][77][78] asmodeus had only exacerbated this by stealing a sliver of the shard of evil from the abyss, as the abyss wanted it back.[76][79] asmodeus came to the conclusion long ago that the blood war was, from a military standpoint, an utterly senseless and wasteful enterprise that consumed a huge amount of resources and killed millions of fiends, sometimes daily.[75][80] however, he did have many uses for the conflict, not least of which the fact that it at least seemed important. others commonly ascribed deeper meanings to it, and it provided an excellent justification for hell's existence and scapegoat for his evils.[28][75] furthermore it gave his own forces something to focus on, keeping his generals occupied, armies active, and soldiers grimly proud. with even the dark eight honestly convinced he saw value in it, asmodeus distracted his enemies and allies alike with just a few days a year for prosecution conferences and some easy lies.[75][81] despite his generally dismissive attitude towards the blood war, asmodeus, unlike some other lawful deities, recognized that it was not an entirely trivial matter. he was well aware that if not kept occupied by the blood war, demons would eventually overrun reality and kill all its occupants before finally self terminating as a race.[82] more to the point, while he viewed them as nothing more than a nuisance,[75] he knew they stood a chance of overwhelming the hells were they to be united.[79] asmodeus also hated the gods of the upper planes for essentially leaving him to run the blood war, he and his devils alone saddled with the dirty work of keeping them and the multiverse safe from the demons. once returned to full strength, he intended to sue for peace with demonkind, a cease fire which only needed to last long enough to twist the blood war from a battle between different flavors of wickedness to a war between good and evil. should all go as planned, the celestial realms of the gods who looked down upon the struggle would be ruined and their keepers made to suffer.[33][84] this would not be the end of the blood war however, nor the extent of asmodeus's plans for demonkind. the lord of the ninth would not rest until the entire heart of the abyss was in his possession, with which he would become strong enough to subjugate the entire demon race and overthrow all other deities.[79] he might very well choose to absorb the power of his aspect of law from the multiverse upon reaching his full power and cause the planes to collapse into cosmic chaos.[75] once the blood war was finally won once and for all, he would conquer all that remained of the lawful planes, crowning himself the undeniable sovereign of all reality.[84] even while many devils continually damned souls to expand hell's infernal army,[64] asmodeus exempted himself from the duty of each archduke to provide soldiers or other aid to fight the blood war.[84] the lord of the ninth kept his own private army called the nessian guard, an elite force consisting of devils spawned from his own blood.[85] consisting of pit fiends and less commonly cornugons, the ranks of this ever expanding, truly loyal force were kept in reserve in malsheem. were asmodeus ever to heal his wounds, it would be this force that would follow him in his conquest of the cosmos.[71][86] on the civil front, asmodeus protected his reign by keeping his friends close and enemies closer, delegating most authority to those he knew sought to replace him.[15] standing above the common devils were hell's nobility, the archdevils, the highest of which were the archdukes who ruled the first eight layers of hell. below them were their own courts, filled with dukes, princes, counts, and various other nobles the least of which were the pit fiends.[35] these lords created intricate webs of political plots, intrigues, and deceptions, protecting themselves from ambitious minions below while aiming for the spots of those above, conspiring with and betraying one another and other powers of the planes in their quest for power and dominance.[35][88] and in this fierce rivalry, asmodeus's servants spent most of their times fighting each other and not him.[35] this system had several additional benefits, first of which was reinforcing the blood war.[35] despite being allowed to serve as generals, most archdukes found the blood war a dreary necessity not nearly as interesting as corrupting societies or vying for power, and they kept an eye on the dark eight to ensure they remained focused on that task.[82] association with the other archdevils also further obscured asmodeus's enigmatic nature and activities, his greatest pawns acting as a kind of "public face" on which others based their expectations of him.[35] asmodeus had spies on every layer of the nine hells and plants in each of the courts, with none certain who amongst their ranks were truly loyal to asmodeus, creating a climate of justified paranoia. he was at least aware of most, if not all plots hatched against him, and had watched the rise and fall of archdevils far craftier than his many contemporaries.[30] given his access to ten avatars, asmodeus could station one on each layer of hell as needed, with a tenth leftover for extraplanar activity.[32] asmodeus's avatar was rarely seen on the material plane given his restrictions there, so he preferred to influence that plane through others.[36] as important as an influx of spirits was to his purposes, every damned soul in hell was so condemned under his name and therefore beholden to him. effectively exempt from the soul quota other devil lords had to meet, he concentrated his corrupting efforts on figures of cosmic significance such as angels or demigods, occasionally managing to lure such beings into contracts to add new unique devils to hell's roster.[28] like with the blood war however, asmodeus could not become complacent in his position. a role such as his demanded he remain constantly wary of treachery within his ranks,[83] for not even he knew all that went on in the hells[89] and such were its laws that whoever defeated the king became the king.[14] furthermore, not even the king of hell was above the law, as was made clear with the phlegethos based diabolical court, an independent institution filled with constant plots by various devils to introduce new rules or precedents. the court might ultimately answer only to asmodeus, but its functions and decisions were entirely dependent on the impossibly complex, loophole ridden legal code of the nine hells, and he had to acknowledge both when the law was broken and when, however technical, it was not.[83][90] asmodeus always hungered for the soul energy of those who had lost faith, particularly those of the powerful.[35][91] the divine energy he received from the individuality robbed souls sentenced to hell could heal his wounds,[73] but that of unbelievers was for whatever reason especially enticing to him. to be specific, it was not mere atheists who he wanted, but those who believed in nothing, no form of divinity, afterlife, or even a reason to continue existing. souls who died in this state did not become normal petitioners, instead reforming in nessus regardless of alignment to be excruciatingly consumed by asmodeus until, fully aware the whole time, every bit of their true essence was obliterated.[35][91] it was not clear exactly why these souls were reborn in nessus,[35] nor did this rule seem to apply in all cases. for example, before souls became proper petitioners in toril's case, they arrived in kelemvor's realm, and he took those of the truly faithless and incorporated them into the great wall around his city to undergo a similar painful process of dissolution.[92] it was also thought that the spirits of unbelievers, lacking the will to go on, might simply cease to exist upon the death of their body.[35] furthermore, asmodeus did not have to kill a disbelieving soul to feast on their energy,[91] the process taking centuries to finally render the victim non existent.[35] regardless, perpetuating the idea that he merely wanted to bring souls into hell was arguably asmodeus's greatest triumph. the ultimate goal of the lord of the lies was to remake the multiverse in accordance to his vision, and it was the power of belief that maintained divinity and the configuration of the planes. so it was that unbelief was perhaps asmodeus's greatest weapon, the means by which he undermined the gods and subverted the very role of hell itself in the order of all things. its furtherance was the primary means by which he empowered himself against his foes, with all his other machinations, from his bloody wars against his direct foes without to his battles of intrigue against his enemies within, mere diversions and delaying tactics to mask his true motives.[35] one of asmodeus's known favored tactics for the promotion of faithlessness did not involve him doing much at all. the king of hell gave covert aid to the athar of sigil,[93] though they were later exiled and his continued level of involvement was not known.[94] this school of thought (one that came into being without asmodeus's involvement but was ideal for his purposes regardless) rejected the divinity of gods, if not their existence, positing that they were just powerful beings of a level of strength that anyone could reach under the right circumstances. while not without belief entirely, rejecting divinity was a promising first step.[93] a more active example of asmodeus's influence was his propagation of false religions. he would provide cleric spells (for example by having other gods grant spells on his behalf in exchange for aid) to new cults his agents created on the material plane. the cult might be overtly diabolic or worship an invented deity tailored to appeal to a specific demographic. cult leaders were granted divine power until the sect reached the pinnacle of its power, at which point spells were suddenly denied and declined. the more extreme members of the cult, rather than turn to a new religion, might reject the concept altogether, but the greatest success cases for this scheme in asmodeus's eyes were when they became suicide cults, its members having lost the will to live.[93] aside from weakening the faith of mortals, asmodeus also smeared the perceived greatness of the gods. mortals often viewed their deities as too omnipotent to be deceived, but asmodeus knew better. he had also seen firsthand how petty and vengeful gods could be, and had secretly instigated (and planned to instigate) several long running feuds among the gods by slowly and subtly planting ideas in the heads of chosen divinities over the course of centuries. by provoking gods into fighting each other, preferably using their followers to act as representatives, he graphically illustrated their pettiness and sowed discontent among their followers.[95] he also enjoyed impersonating other gods, allowing him to further manipulate mortals into certain courses of action.[96] those who rejected their original patrons could then be steered toward the athar or some other cult of his design.[95] even after he became a true god, asmodeus continued to subvert divinity through his own religion. in the wake of the spellplague, when many were questioning if the gods were angry or had outright abandoned them, asmodeus's faithful provided their own answers and a god to give them the absolution they sought. his faithful offered reprieve in the afterlife from the uncertain waiting in the fugue plane, a devil to keep them company as the fate of their mortal soul was decided. shrines and temples were still incredibly rare, but many folks had taken to asking asmodeus for reprieve and respite in the wait for a response after offending their god, and in the most extreme cases of transgression, for him to hide their sins from their patrons. he was known to provide the latter, and his priests said he would also do the former, if only a price was paid after death.[1] asmodeus's relationship with good aligned deities was simple, that of opposition and hatred.[20][45][30] despite the circumstances under which it was signed and who exactly did so being lost to ancient history, several primal deities of law signed a deal with asmodeus known as the pact primeval.[50] through the merciless exploitation of loopholes, the pact granted devils the right to punish lawful evil souls.[50][98] more complicated and less obviously hostile were his relations with evil gods. hell's minions would just as willingly turn a follower of theirs to the infernal path as they would one of good powers (even if the latter would be more enjoyable). evil gods had made war against hell innumerable times in the past, rarely with the scope of the blood war or battles with benevolent forces only because of the mutual threat posed by the latter.[63] even so, asmodeus had strategic alliances with several powers of the lower planes, such as set and hecate (at least back when he needed assistance to grant spells),[93] and even a secret alliance with the demon lord pazuzu. both he and his vassals had forged dark pacts with various evil gods long ago, such as bane, gruumsh, and vecna.[99] those deities who called hell home gave him a great deal of respect[8] for even though their domains were fully outside asmodeus's control, it was incredibly clear who was in charge of the hells. rumors of various deities of hell allying to wrest baator from asmodeus occasionally emerged but never came to fruition. even if not constrained by their own lawful natures not to upset the established order, they would never be able to decide on who would rule in the overlord's stead.[100] either way, neither those gods nor asmodeus himself wanted an open war in hell,[101] and indeed the thought of pantheons descending onto his plane and upsetting hell's delicate power balance filled him with dread.[102] in duergar legend, their god laduguer triumphed against asmodeus himself in his quest to earn their freedom. asmodeus himself confronted laduguer after the temptations and attacks of his minions prove fruitless, yet he remained unfazed in the face of even asmodeus's charm. nothing asmodeus could do would change the countenance or demands of laduguer, who would accept only the original deal, infernal aid in overthrowing the illithids oppressing his people in exchange for assistance against the demon queen lolth in the underdark, and grimly accepted it as nothing but his due when asmodeus finally relented.[103] in general, asmodeus impersonated the duergar gods to cultivate the evil within the hearts of the already corrupt, offering them guidance and vengeance while urging them to brutal deeds.[104] the couatl deity jazirian knew something of asmodeus's true nature, having worked with the fellow being of law in some ancient deed. while fully capable of telling the gods of law and good this information, they preferred to stay quietly in the background, gathering information through their couatl children and personal efforts to decipher his plans. they had several theories, but knew nothing for certain, and while worried for what he might do, hoped he retained enough lawfulness within himself not to try and unmake the cosmos. should he try however, they were prepared to confront him at their full capacity, believing strongly that the laws of reality were to be upheld rather than recast to suit those in power. on asmodeus's part, he regarded his cooperation with jazirian as a mistake not to be repeated.[93] asmodeus was the father of devilkind, at the very least in spirit if not entirely literally. by some legends it was from his blood that the first baatezu were birthed,[106] while in others he led those who would become the first devils down the dark path into hell.[50] every devil within hell's hierarchy served asmodeus, either directly or via a line of authority tracing back to him.[107] he was the default authority all who had reached greater status reported to when uncertain.[108] he was above the archdevils and commoners alike, a category of devil onto himself.[106] the lords of the nine derived their power from the fraction of his essence he invested in them,[109] and it was through the lords (himself included) that all devilkind derived their divine magic.[108] the archdevils of hell all sought asmodeus's throne,[110] and while every one would gladly claim all he owned despite their sworn oaths of fealty and blatantly insincere displays of devotion,[111] none had the courage to move openly against him.[110] asmodeus made his superiority publicly clear in an event called the reckoning of hell, where he demonstrated he could foil them all and emerge entirely unscathed. he annually called the archdevils to his court in malsheem, a summons that none ever refused.[8] when the position of an archduke needed to be filled, it was his right to choose who would do so, always selecting one of the unique devils in hell's ranks.[8][108] however, asmodeus could simply take powerful beings, even mortal ones, and first transform them into archdevils to add them to his roster before appointing them to archdukedom.[112] the archdevils of note who directly served asmodeus were as follows: the saga of zariel. zariel: asmodeus welcomed zariel in open arms after her defeated form was brought to him from beneath the giant hill of corpses she created in her crusade against avernus.[113] he admired her passion for warfare and commended her battle prowess, as well as the strength of her convictions, offering her rulership of avernus and thus a chance to fight directly against demonkind in the blood war.[114][115] she accepted his terms, and through doing so became, in a sense, a jewel in asmodeus's crown.[116] even so she was not spared his manipulations, for it was theorized that he secretly masterminded her defeat at the hands of bel and the dark eight,[118][119] later providing her covert aid in her struggle against bel's draining torture[120] before reinstating her after bel proved inadequate at driving the demons from avernus.[121] according to one tale, he may very well have been responsible for inflaming her already potent rage before her descent, setting the groundwork for her eventual fall.[113] many whispered zariel's true agenda in the hells was vengeance against asmodeus and to drive him from the pit entirely.[121] dispater: according to the commonly accepted pact primeval origin myth, dispater was a member of asmodeus's company before even his descent into baator.[122] he was among the most loyal archdevils,[14] having recognized that he was lucky to remain a lord after the reckoning when many other rulers were displaced and deformed, and would require incredibly persuasion to attempt treason again. only asmodeus's direct call could remove him from the safety of his iron tower, and he returned as soon as possible whenever ordered to leave.[123] the insidious words of his advisor titivilus had inflamed dispater's paranoia, convincing him that asmodeus himself conspired to remove him from power.[124] perhaps the only thing that could prompt him to act against any other archduke was the possibility of discovering something great enough to tip the scales in his favor.[125] mammon: mammon maintained his position as archduke through legendarily shameless sycophancy, humiliating and pathetic antics performed before the king of hell. the moment asmodeus proved victorious in the reckoning mammon immediately groveled before him, betraying his co conspirators without a moment's hesitation. asmodeus changed mammon's form after this either as a punishment he decided or because mammon suggested it as a way to signify he would change his ways and remain loyal.[123][126][127][128][129] regardless, he hated the transformation and dreamed of the day he could cast off the curse and ascend to rule hell with a certain someone at his feet, namely asmodeus's daughter glasya.[130] it was unclear how exactly the relationship started, whether asmodeus was using the unsavory mammon to punish his daughter or if glasya was using him to annoy her father (or even if there was some degree of twisted, genuine passion and romance), but at one point glasya was the consort of mammon. asmodeus forcibly forbade the relationship with little resistance from mammon after the reckoning, though it was unclear if it had restarted once glasya removed herself from asmodeus's watchful eye.[127][131][132][133] belial and fierna: belial was an old devil who had long ruled phlegethos,[134] and was responsible for overseeing the diabolical court even if all its judges answered only to asmodeus.[135][136] after the reckoning he formally stepped down from office in an attempt to escape asmodeus's wrath. although asmodeus killed his consort naome[137] (though even this might have been glasya's doing)[119] he accepted belial placing his daughter fierna on the throne.[134] belial's plans for covert conquest of other layers were continually stalled when asmodeus elevated his own daughter to archduchess of malbolge, for he feared both retaliation from asmodeus for attacking his daughter and from his own daughter for attacking against her "best friend".[138][139] after a period of uncertainty during which it wasn't clear who was really in charge of phlegethos waived the normal principle regarding sharing archdukedom and dubbed both of them the rulers of the 4th hell.[135][136][139] levistus: levistus was rumored to be of similar age to ancient dispater, having been granted stygia back at hell's founding for his charm and competence, and he was the first devil to attempt to betray the king of hell. in his traitorous quest to usurp asmodeus he performed acts so heinous that his punishment, being sealed in a giant block of ice, almost seemed like a mercy, and while later returned archdukedom he was not released from his tomb.[140][141][111] having once prized himself on his mobility,[142] levistus held a special spite in his heart for asmodeus[143] and no gratitude for his reinstatement, blinded as he was by his need for vengeance and likely to undermine all hell just to get it.[142] he remained brazenly arrogant, troublesome, and provocatory towards the king of hell, behavior which was confusingly tolerated with seeming indifference.[144] for asmodeus's part, levistus was in poor standing with him.[141] asmodeus freed him annually only so he could sulk through the meetings with the other archdevils,[8] and it was said his soft laughter could be heard whenever levistus's tomb moved in an unwanted direction.[145] he further punished levistus by mandating he become a patron of survival, offering escape to those in danger.[136] it was speculated that his return was part of an ingenious diversion by asmodeus, a theory levistus came to accept despite hating its implications. it would mean that not only were his own schemes used to cloak asmodeus's designs, but that he would need to watch his behavior going forward.[144] some speculated his later struggle against geryon was orchestrated by asmodeus to either make them overcome their worst impulses or lay the foundation for a superior lord.[146] glasya, daughter of asmodeus, standing in front of a picture of her father. glasya: glasya was the daughter of asmodeus, and regardless of speculation that he merely adopted her as his own, was treated as such.[113] the terms "father" and "daughter" might have been insufficient to describe the relationships between immortal beings of lawful evil,[147] but the two shared a similar view of the world. his daughter generally remained continually supportive[148] and asmodeus was, at least by infernal standards, a doting father.[139] even so, their history was long and riddled with conflict, as glasya remained willfully defiant and dissatisfied by his attempts to bring her under control and she brought him no small amount of grief before they came to an understanding.[131][149] eventually he made her archduchess, although how much this was meant as a punishment, reward, and a pragmatic matter of keeping her ambitions in check was in question.[147][149] exactly what asmodeus ultimately wanted from glasya, whether to consolidate his rule in hell or expand his influence in the planes beyond, remained unclear,[111][150] but even she sought his throne and was not above using his name to get away with many of her ploys.[111][151] baalzebul: baalzebul was originally an archon of mount celestia named triel before his relentless and selfish pursuit of perfection got him thrown into the nine hells.[152][153] a persistent but unsubstantiated rumor claimed triel had been one of asmodeus's personal projects, his spiritual fall engineered in the form of a lovely but venomous flower,[154] whilst other reports claimed asmodeus could empathize with baalzebul's fall from grace.[152] regardless of the reason, the soon to be renamed baalzebul became a favorite of asmodeus, perhaps the closest thing he had to a true friend, quickly promoted to devilhood before swiftly ascending to rule the seventh hell.[152][153][111][155] however, the conspiratorial politics of hell put the two at greater odds over time,[156] culminating in the reckoning when his move to overthrow asmodeus offended the dark lord and saw him suffer a series of cruel and unusual punishments, the worst being his transformation into a hideous, degenerate slug.[152][157][158][159] having fallen from asmodeus's favor,[155] baalzebul sought to prove again his usefulness and return to asmodeus's good graces, primarily by making all his rivals look worse by comparison.[154][160] yet the slug archduke still burned with undying ambition for asmodeus's throne just as he did with undying anger towards asmodeus himself.[153] he had a special hatred for asmodeus, for his curse was not simply an impediment, but an intolerable humiliation. though he did manage to return to a more desirable appearance, there was one thing he had sought even more than that during his transformation, and that was vengeance against asmodeus for his defeat and shaming.[156][155] and yet, for reasons no archduke could fathom, asmodeus occasionally showed favor to his fallen foe.[14] mephistopheles: like dispater, mephistopheles was said to be one of asmodeus's companions before they descended into hell[122] and was his greatest ally. the dark lord seemed to trust his counsel when offered[14] and appointed mephisto to safeguard his domain;[158] he was even something of a godfather to glasya. that said, he was also asmodeus's greatest enemy,[14] his chief, most dangerous rival,[161] and more than any of the other archdukes he was honest about this intention.[162] while willing to fawn if he had to,[161] he had openly and directly told asmodeus of his ambition to usurp him with complete confidence.[162][163] for some reason asmodeus usually tolerated this brazen and arrogant covetousness, seemingly content to let mephistopheles make his claims. part of the reason he allowed it, and indeed why he ignored baalzebul's own intrigues, was because the two were more focused on and openly antagonistic towards each other than himself.[162][163] mephistopheles meanwhile maintained the gall to expect rewards from asmodeus when others received them, exuding jealousy towards his peers despite his pre eminent position.[152] in his mind, being king of hell was his destiny,[162][163] although even he realized he could not depose asmodeus as things were. so it was that mephisto waited to see if asmodeus made some catastrophic mistake exploitable enough to put them at actual odds.[14] bel: bel was a military genius widely regarded as one of the greatest success stories in the hells, his most legendary claim to fame being a deceptive maneuver known as the four cross where he appeared to betray asmodeus for the abyss twice only so he could cripple the demons for a decade.[89][164] eventually he seized control of all of hell's armies and usurped the previous lord of avernus, but where he expected immediate assaults, asmodeus supported him.[89] delighted that his treachery found favor with asmodeus, he gladly accepted the terms laid out by his intermediary, support in exchange for continued blood war prosecution. only then did he realize he was an outcast amongst infernal nobility and had little time for anything but the blood war.[89] in fact, asmodeus may very well have planned out bel's rebellion, informally replacing zariel through the dark eight and raising up bel as a puppet ruler beholden to their will.[119] it was commonly said asmodeus permitted the coup so as to take a useful but conniving tactician and leave him too harried to scheme against his patron.[89][165] with no allies in the hierarchy, bel adopted the policy of supporting asmodeus in the hopes of further advancement, feeding him information on the other lords through his spy network, efforts appreciated by asmodeus if not always of actual use.[89] asmodeus would decree that the other archdukes were required to fund his military endeavor on their behalf with souls and soldiers,[166] and he eventually had such resources at his command that he could likely march against any other archduke with some success. yet at that point, in the wake of the temporary cooling of the blood war at large, bel was believed to have no desire to do such a thing, to have come to like his appointed position as sentry of the hells and become loyal to asmodeus first and himself later.[167] asmodeus would then replace bel with the fallen angel zariel. he managed to imprison her for a time before asmodeus reinstated her again, declaring bel's defensive tactics inadequate for fending off demonkind. he mandated bel advise zariel, and while bel would not try to depose her since she seemed to have his favor, he would undermine her and encourage unwise behavior in the hopes his mutually hated rival seemed inept. he awaited the chance to permanently rid himself of her and retake his role as warlord of avernus.[121][168][169] tiamat: tiamat held a special enmity for asmoedeus, for she had been contractually bound to avernus on terms known only by her and the archdevils.[14][170] at one point asmodeus had granted her rulership over the layer, but she was so ineffective at keeping outcast devils from attempting regime threatening coups that she was demoted, only going unpunished because asmodeus's mind probing revealed no actual disloyalty. furthermore, she was focusing on building her own power and kingdom, which asmodeus reasoned would lead her to fight outcasts and intruders more effectively then if given the task. he left her the formal duty of guarding the best known passage way between avernus and dis, done by stationing an aspect there dedicated to guarding the way, but left her the notion she could return to rule with a satisfactory performance.[120] while tiamat's "true" self was in avernus, another aspect maintained and shifted domains elsewhere, but during the spellplague fell into the hands of an empowered bane. tiamat wisely decided not to directly confront the god of tyranny but serve him faithfully while learning and accurately relaying his secrets to asmodeus, which greatly pleased him. eventually she found her moment to strike and steal a great portion of bane's divine power, passing any she didn't need to heal her enslaved form and link it with her other body to asmodeus. delighted by the gift, asmodeus extended the offer of leadership to her once more, whereupon even he was surprised when tiamat refused on the basis that she neither desired nor would suit such a position.[120] tiamat willingly offered to become asmodeus's champion on avernus and slay all who she knew plotted against him, suggesting bel would prove a superior lord and one not to be spurned and made a foe. touched by this, asmodeus held a great ceremony formally titling tiamat “guardian to the gate of the second layer", yet he betrayed her all the same. turning his subordinates against each other, asmodeus privately urged tiamat to provide covert magical aid to an imprisoned zariel while at the same time preparing bel to mentally dominate her, imprisoning her in her avernus kingdom in the name of keeping down any personal ambitions. secretly enraged, tiamat believed asmodeus and the others saw her as a "mere monster" to be duped and exploited, and became determined to obtain some level of freedom from the king of hell.[120] geryon: according to the codex of betrayal, geryon was originally a celestial being who joined forces with asmodeus because he promised to heal the mental wounds he suffered from a failed attempt to heal his broken body with the essence of his fallen comrades. he served as a trusted aide in matters of war and espionage, and was rewarded by having his fractured mind more fully merged. he continued to act as asmodeus's assistant, slowly committing acts of evil more out of malice than rage or obedience, and was eventually made the lord of stygia to replace levistus. surprisingly for a lord of hell he desired no such authority, disliking the burdens of leadership, although he came to enjoy intrigue and maintained a stable if unremarkable reign up until the reckoning.[10] geryon served as a spy for asmodeus during the reckoning, seemingly siding with mephistopheles only to blow his horn before the climatic clash and signal all the commanders to betray their leaders. then, in a move that surprised everyone, asmodeus punished his only loyal lord with exile, raising entombed levistus back to the rank of archduke.[10][171] it was unclear where geryon went or why asmodeus forsook him. theories ranged from the idea it was a punishment or perhaps asmodeus's interpretation of a reward, a scheme of utility to manipulate him or other archdevils, a way of sending a secret message, or even done just to feast on his despair.[10][171][144][146][172] [91] whatever the case, geryon eventually returned to stygia and maintained a war against levistus for it with the tacit permission of asmodeus.[146] though he hated asmodeus for stripping him of his power, secretly raging and swearing vengeance against him, he was not certain of the why himself and not necessarily unwilling to comply depending on the reason.[146][172][10] moloch: moloch was once hell's greatest warrior, an archdevil granted rulership over malbolge by asmodeus eons ago as a reward for his constant service and unyielding hatred of asmodeus's enemies. technically he was not an archduke however, instead ruling malbolge as viceroy of baalzebul whom was also granted dominion over it. as was his habit, asmodeus promoted moloch not simply because he deserved it, but because his animosity towards the other archdevils, especially as he and baalzebul conspired against each other for control, would keep the two well occupied.[111][173][174] in the aftermath of the reckoning, moloch stood defiant against asmodeus, convinced lord of the ninth would respect his strength as the others begged. unbeknownst to him, this advice was fed to him as part of a vast conspiracy to dethrone him, and his refusal to bow before his king got him angrily demoted and banished by asmodeus for his impertinence.[119][173][174] moloch would later come to resent the ascension of glasya to archduchess of his former realm, a clear act of favoritism by her father.[173] malagard: malagard was the night hag consort of moloch who prompted the previous lord of the sixth to rebuke asmodeus, her poisoned words cementing his fall before elevating her to archduchess.[173][175] having witnessed asmodeus's power herself she had no desire to interfere with him or participate in hell's politics, instead focusing on attaining divinity.[175] her defeat was at least partially by asmodeus's will, for she fell out of his favor and was struck down in a fit of pique,[14] her ritual to attain godhood failed for reasons not clear. as for why a night hag was made archduchess at all, many in hell had come to suspect asmodeus only raised her up as a vulnerable placeholder until such a time when he and glasya could come to terms.[173][119][33][59] gargauth: gargauth was once an archduke of hell[176] and the second most powerful figure next to asmodeus himself before being exiled from baator for reasons unknown.[97] some sages claimed he challenged asmodeus and lost, others said the destruction of his closest friend by asmodeus drove him from the hells, while others believed he left of his own volition,[97][176] sent by asmodeus to the material plane as a pit fiend to corrupt mortals.[177] in any case, gargauth maintained close ties with asmodeus, and was on as friendly of terms with him as devils could be.[97] gargauth saw asmodeus as the most capable archdevil, and reported on the loyalties of devils on the material plane. despite being sought after by ambitious dukes for his great personal power, gargauth never supported any attempt to unseat asmodeus and any meeting made with that goal in mind inevitably resulted in asmodeus knowing what happened. even so, gargauth viewed himself as above everyone in the nine hells,[97] and his own followers believed he ultimately planned to turn faerun into his own 10th hell.[178] graz'zt: the demon lord graz'zt was believed by some to have once been an archdevil and a trusted advisor of asmodeus. in the earlier days of the blood war, he was tasked with retrieving the heart of the abyss, and though initially successful was stalled after conquering three layers and forced to consolidate his holdings and rethink his strategy.[179][180] some sages theorized he became dissatisfied with eternal subservience to asmodeus and favored the abyss, which offered greater freedom to the powerful than baator where only one could claim absolute dominion.[181] rejecting his heritage and status, he made his conquests his own kingdom of azzagrat.[180][179] only graz'zt could say if he had truly severed ties with asmodeus or was secretly colluding with him and either answer didn't preclude him from changing his mind later.[180] by some rumors, graz'zt was originally closer to asmodeus then merely another devil in his court. if the hearsay was to be believed, based more upon personal biases and allegiances than actual evidence as it was, asmodeus was graz'zt's father, spawned by a terrible union between him and the obyrith lord pale night.[182] asmodeus was so powerful that he feared no individual archdevil, but his position was not invincible. even he dreaded the idea of a unified front against him,[183] for if they managed to overcome their differences, the archdukes might prove able to overpower him.[184] dispater was seemingly invulnerable within his iron tower[185][186] and had crafted an impenetrable suit of armor, the full features of which were known only to himself.[125] mammon might very well be wealthier than asmodeus and fierna was his equal in terms of charisma.[135] levistus's infamous deed, should the truth behind it be made clear, had the potential to utterly undermine asmodeus's authority,[111] and his sly trickery had turned many former members of his own spy network against him.[141] glasya may have managed to defy, subvert, and embarrass her father multiple times, and none could say how many of the dark eight he appointed to watch her would turn to her side if they went to war.[111][187][188] some suspected asmodeus considered baalzebul a worthy adversary,[14] and while he may have been the most clever,[173] cunning, and artful of the archdevils,[23] the lord of the flies may have been a superior intellect.[157][note 2] but it was mephistopheles who was perhaps the one archdevil asmodeus feared on his own,[183] whose magical might was whispered to be great enough that even his master was deterred from interfering with him.[189] furthermore, the exile gargauth rivaled asmodeus in posturing and wiliness, and through his stronger sense of humor surpassed him in self control and strategy, such was his ability that he would prove dangerous competition if he ever desired asmodeus's throne.[97] were he to support baalzebul, mephistopheles, or even one of the lesser archdukes, the beneficiary could conceivably wrest control of the nine hells and oust asmodeus.[7] even bel had the capacity to "become a problem" in asmodeus's mind, were he to finish absorbing the powers of zariel.[120] to avoid the advent of this scenario, asmodeus plied his skill in diplomacy and intrigue to carefully foster rivalry, distrust, and feuding across the hells, always managing to seemingly align himself with the winning side in any conflict.[184][183] the power balance of hell was a fragile thing,[111] and the fall of the wrong lord at the wrong time had the potential to unleash utter catastrophe throughout the nine hells and planes beyond.[68] the following beings were among the most notable subjects of asmodeus on nessus. the forces at their disposal are listed, where appropriate: a disciple of asmodeus. asmodeus had been varyingly described as having no need for worship[194] and desperately craving true divinity.[30] he simultaneously desired the souls of mortals and maintained a following among them,[33][30] yet rarely tempted them himself, knowing they would come to him.[195] indeed, asmodeus was unquestionably the dominant figure in regards to those who knowingly worshiped devils. he was often the first choice of all civilized, prospective devil worshipers,[21] with those known as such almost always being his followers,[65] and had by far more cultists on the material plane than any other archdevil,[21] arguably even combined.[65][30] furthermore his cult subsumed all others,[196] for technically every diabolic cult was simply a subdivision of his own and every leader of such a group was mandated to acknowledge his power and pledge allegiance to him.[196] mortals who drew their power from infernal sources ultimately drew power from him,[30][109][108] and he was the final authority on what benefits an archduke was allowed and even mandated to provide.[90][197] asmodeus had followers of practically every race and influenced all levels of society even within the greatest bastions of good.[30] most sects were based in the settlements of humans, halflings, dwarves, elves, and gnomes, although the cult did claim some monstrous adherents.[21] he courted influence among organized races of lawful evil humanoids, such as hobgoblins,[198] with many creatures of evil revering him as the patron of might and tyranny.[65] following this aspect, all asmodeus's clerics aspired to wealth, prestige, and most of all, power,[65] and most cultists used his organization as a stepping stone to these goals.[21] in following him they saw their way to great power, a path providing access to the otherwise unattainable.[65][30] they were imperious figures whose great personal magnetism made them natural leaders and who already possessed much political power, such as merchants and wealthy nobles.[30][65] the cult functioned as a secret and sinister mutual aid society whose members used their pre existing influence and affluence to raise each other into higher positions of prominence. in societies devoted to him, all advancement whether political, social, or economic was tied to membership of the cult.[21][65] in predominantly lawful evil societies, asmodeus's temples dominated the landscape and typically operated openly. if allowed in societies predominantly of other alignments they openly followed him but kept their true natures and activities secret. in areas hostile to lawful evil, temples were hidden in subterranean complexes and the nature of their god hidden to unproven initiates.[21][65] all temples were full of his symbols; his ruby tipped rod emblem was used for subtlety while his skull gripping clawed fist was used in devil dominated societies, but sometimes an inverted pentagram would suffice. all were well appointed and protected through the financially empowering favor of asmodeus.[65] having no soul quota of his own,[113] asmodeus was no stranger to subcontracting cults to other figures and inventing fictional figures for devotion (such as in his schemes to inspire faithlessness)[93] and had an interesting relationship with the cults of his two most powerful rivals. in an arrangement that frustrated the narcissistic mephistopheles to no end, he traditionally operated cults for asmodeus. often confused for his master, he did not exert much influence on the material plane (though his relatively recent discovery of hellfire helped him escape this somewhat). meanwhile, members of baalzebul's cults (the third most popular infernal cult) were often better insurgents than governors, and so occasionally he and asmodeus swapped temples. a victorious church of baalzebul would be taken over by asmodeus and baalzebul would gain a secret shrine to asmodeus within an area in need of subversion.[3][199] asmodeus also maintained several unconventional mortal casters. in fact, the most common origin of warlocks in the realms was infernal, and of all the archdevils, it was asmodeus who maintained the most of such pacts, at least among those with fiendish blood. the great effort he spent in this endeavor served to grant him influence on different planes and solidify his supremacy, and only mephistopheles rivaled his rate of creation and control.[198] there were also his domineering disciples of darkness, callous in their quest for unlimited power, ruthlessly striving for nothing less than world domination. the best were often already spellcasters, and the most powerful could draw some of asmodeus's power into themselves.[193][200] the most worthy cult leaders, whether directly in his cult or not, were granted the power to drain the vitality of their allies, even doing so automatically when unconscious.[196] since attaining his divinity during the spellplague, asmodeus's mortal follower base had been ever expanding.[38] his faith was still considered a form of devil worship,[51] for he was known to humans and demihumans alike as lord of the nine hells,[202] but while his priests, called the mordai, were known to conduct vile rituals in his name, doing so was no longer actually necessary to channel his divinity, unlike with other lesser lords of hell.[51] in his capacity as a true god, asmodeus had a very different appeal and sphere of influence than in his diabolic aspect. great and quick rewards were offered to those willing to submit their souls to him and he fully allowed for indulgence in the pleasures of life, as well as offered special favors for those who tempted others into his service.[203][204] he was even willing, through authorized intermediaries, to send a priest to cast true resurrection on one who had died.[205] all these temptations however were merely lures on his hook that inevitably came at the cost of the signatory's soul, sentencing them to eternal damnation in the nine hells. the mordai preyed on greed and impatience, and all who they corrupted were bound just as they were to never falter in word or deed as they acknowledged asmodeus as their true master, to be obeyed absolutely and served without stopping.[203][204] furthermore, in line with his motivations, asmodeus's church subverted the divine order. in the aftermath of the events surrounding his ascension, charismatic individuals appeared with small followings offering a confused populace answers and absolution. to those without great ambition, alive or dead, they offered reprieve from the torturous wait for a god's response through delights, distractions and company and, if at a price after death, the possibility to hide their transgressions from divine eyes. after decades of struggling for acceptance, the church had made some inroads, for while shrines were still rare and temples practically unheard of, many had taken to asking asmodeus for reprieve from their sins.[202] to the more aspiring, mordai offered a chance at both power and pleasures immortal in the hierarchy of hell, a path by which they could master their own fates and achieve their goals over eternity rather than serve at another deity's leisure.[202] in truth, even the powerful were not exempt from eternal service, although the greatest of his mortal servants could receive instant transformation into pit fiends upon death.[205] after the spellplague, asmodeus and a coven of warlocks known as the toril thirteen completed a ritual where the lord of the nine marked all tieflings in the world as his descendants. regardless of their true heritage, he cursed them to bear his "blood" thus changing them to better resemble him.[206] even in modern times he was still willing to offer transformation into a tiefling with a direct infernal bloodline to himself, at the cost of the soul of whoever would seek such a thing.[205] contrary to some beliefs, asmodeus's great ritual granted him no special control over the agency of his so called children. some actively rejected infernal politics and others aligned themselves with opposing fiendish factions (enough to lend some weight to the suspicion that they were all fiend worshipers). other infernal bloodlines had also reemerged, though those bearing asmodeus's mark were still by far the most numerous. even so, many tieflings did choose to follow the lord of the nine,[206] the most frequent provider of warlock pacts to their kind.[198] the existence of the ashmadai, an active and violent cult of asmodeus in neverwinter (where the largest tiefling population was found in north faerûn) created an atmosphere of distrust towards all tieflings there.[206] a few shadar kai of netheril revered asmodeus.[207] since laduguer's death (and after his revival), asmodeus was known to impersonate him and other duergar deities, convincing many duergar to swear oaths to the devils in this guise to heighten their desire for vengeance and tyranny.[208][209] asmodeus was a figure long shrouded in mystery, surrounded by brutally repressed rumors suggesting there was more to him than he cared to admit.[31] he was certainly the oldest of the existing archdevils,[30] but perhaps outdated by the long forgotten lucifer or the even more enigmatic satan.[88] there stood comparisons to be made between him and zaphkiel, the similarly inscrutable and ancient ruler of the archons and the seven heavens of mount celestia, one of the first mortal martyrs to die for the cause of lawful good.[212] in some legends asmodeus was once a deity of the goodly realms himself, maybe even of greater status, exiled from celestia or perhaps elysium.[31] if one asked other fiends, for all their word was worth, they were responsible for asmodeus's existence. daemon histories purported that the baatezu were born of larva after the general of gehenna purged the lawfulness from his people and infused it into them. from the yugoloth homeland of hades, they were driven away to baator where they then developed into the baatezu, the lords of the nine being the yugoloth shepherds empowered by their awe.[213] the demonic tanar'ri however would say that they themselves were ultimately the source of devilkind, that their baatezu archenemies were simply corrupted versions of themselves, a root of chaos so twisted that it became law. this was arguably the only point the histories of the abyss all agreed on and,[214] by some interpretations, could be argued correct.[50] by some theories, asmodeus was somehow fundamental to reality itself, his mere existence pulling the multiverse into its modern form.[31] he was perhaps older than the rule of belief in the planes,[4] to be counted amongst various other unfathomably old beings in the ranks of the ancient brethren. if such rumors were true, he would doubtlessly be connected to the baernaloths, yugoloths said to be born before the current configuration of the planes,[55] and were alleged to be responsible for the creation of incredibly old fiendish races.[215] alternate versions of the yugoloth story had the lords of the nine originally appointed by the baernaloths or arise simply because the nature of the multiverse necessitated their existence.[213] then there was the matter of asmodeus's true form. not even other devils living in nessus were certain of the story that the serpent's coil, where the true form rested, was formed by the spiraling body of a plummeted asmodeus.[71] none who shared knowledge of its existence, both of the form itself and where it allegedly came from, lived for more than a day, although it was still recorded in ancient and difficult to reach libraries, such as demogorgon's citadel of abysm.[31] as for how the existence of this form would impact his origin stories, the fact he was currently of serpentine shape did not require that he was always this way. it was said that even devils were not exempt from the punishments of the realm of the damned, and asmodeus too would have been physically warped by it,[216] or was perhaps cursed by his former superior.[217] regardless, in the majority of his origins, whether cast out of the celestial realms, banished from other fiendish ranks or rejected by timeless contemporaries, asmodeus had fallen from grace.[31][218][219] from this disgraced and generally poorly understood position however he had begin to rise again, advancing plans uncountable eons in the making.[4] the most elaborated of these descents and ascents boiled down to three primary origin stories: jazirian and ahriman forming the outer planes. at the very dawn of the universe, reality was little more than swirling, primordial soup of infinite possibility, simultaneously everything and nothing. forms, ranging from entire dimensions to god like beings, would then coalesce out from the chaos via an unknown mechanism, some reveling in the preexisting reality and others rejected it, creating the faction of law. the young multiverse would be defined by the conflict between these ancient groups of chaos and law, and among them were the twin cosmic serpents, representations of the duality of law: the feathered, goodly jazirian and forked tongued, evil ahriman. so long as the two worked in concert they were invincible, the mightiest of law's champions, and despite their difference, they were first and foremost agents of order.[71][218][71] by forming an ouroboros, biting each others' tails and sending their coils out into the endless chaos, the cosmic serpents bounded the outlands, the combined interaction of law, good, chaos, and evil creating a plane of true neutrality. all other alignment based planes configured around it, creating the great ring, more commonly known as the outer planes. in creating this first ring, the twin serpents had established a fundamental planar principle, the unity of rings, instituting the importance of rings in the philosophy and geography of the planes. then, in honor of their triple aspects of law, good, and evil, they established the law of threes (more commonly called the rule of threes), decreeing the importance of the number in the multiverse.[71][218] given the prior rule, the twin serpents decided that a third law would be needed to complete the triumvirate, both agreeing to define a center of reality to remain coiled around. it was at this point, however, that the two disregarded the importance of law, unwilling to concede to the other in its best interests. each pushed and agitated for heaven or hell, the planes of their favored aspects in law, to have such an honor, despite the existence of more neutral planes such as the outlands. the two strained in opposite directions, rocking the foundations of reality before finally breaking the ouroboros and ripping off each other's tails. so it was that the unity of law was broken and there was no center of reality, the envisioned, bordered planes instead stretching on infinitely, and in doing so the two had effectively made the third law a concession to chaos.[71][218] winged jazirian flew to mount celestia, scattering drops of blood that formed fully grown couatls as they landed, while ahriman, lacking wings, suffered a long and direct fall into baator, the embittered and injured serpent embracing his own dark offspring. both were weakened by this struggle, having invested much of their power into defining the planes and their later battle. though neither passed on, they were usurped by other god like entities as the multiverse was populated by beings both mortal and immortal. the multiverse at large desired to forget them,[71][218] and few survived from the early days of creation to remember their identities. ahriman took advantage of this, hiding his true nature, reinventing himself as the lord of baator and changing his name to asmodeus, a position from which he would plot to regain his former glory.[4] the pact primeval myth was told throughout all worlds in the material plane, with countless cultural variants substituting the deities involved. devils themselves told the story, and it was the most widely accepted version of the multiverse's creation. in this version too, arguably before the beginning of all things, there was chaos, and from it came its living manifestations in demonkind. lacking time as a tool and possibly even as an abstract concept, the demons fought each other in an environment of endless disorder for an innumerable period.[50] but this state was intolerable to reality, and so in this version too, forces of law arose from the chaos to combat it and its demons, early deities in gleaming armor of pure stability with weapons forged of ideal thought. the forces of law and chaos battled for eons, until the deities of law felt the need to track their progress and so created numbers for recording the slain foes and time to see how long victory would take. they gradually came to suspect however that demonkind was infinite and became weary of the conflict, seeking to move on to other projects like the creation of worlds and intelligent beings. so they created a beautiful and gloriously diverse array of winged warriors to wield their divine magic and do battle on their behalf, the angels, and the bravest, toughest, fiercest and most beautiful of these angels was asmodeus.[50] asmodeus slew more demons than anyone, whether angel or deity, but as the eons wore on he and his company became ugly and fearsome, taking on demonic traits to better combat them[50] (thus in a way devils could be said to have come from demons).[219] eventually their frightened celestial kin beseeched the gods to banish asmodeus, and so a trial was held. asmodeus himself had helped to carve the great tablets of law he read from, citing that the first duty of law was to destroy chaos and his excellence in this field to a god of war. he countered any displeasure taken with his unsightly appearance as a sacrifice made to keep others pure, refusing exile on account of his lawfulness. they could find no lawful counter against the dark angel who wielded their own clauses better than they, and over time their alarming aspects   forked tongues, fanged maws and bodies wreathed in fire   only became more dire.[50] without any lawful way to stop asmodeus's host from entering even newly created works in their dominions, the distressed deities decided to focus on the creation of mortals and wonderful worlds to house them. unfortunately, the bands of asmodeus had to be called to these worlds to vanquish invading demonic hosts, and proved generally successful in doing so. through their combined efforts barriers were created to keep demons away from the material plane through walls, mountains, icy wastes and vast oceans. much like asmodeus, the newly created worlds were scarred for the betterment of law. then, to their horror, did the gods discover that mortals immediately set to subverting these barriers, allowing the demon host back inside to destroy their paradises.[50] asmodeus came to the gods to answer their lamentations, acknowledging that while the free will to choose obeying the law was important, mortals were curious and lured by demonic promises of freedom, and no matter how many times the process repeated would always follow the dangled liberty and realize too late it was merely anarchic destruction. he then answered their further wails of downcast despair with a solution, that voluntary obedience to whom they, as creations, should obey, had to have consequence if they did not. asmodeus argued that the law meant nothing without punishment. at their further questioning he unsheathed punishment itself, at this time shaped like a mighty sword, an ultimate weapon of law asmodeus allegedly invented himself.[50] asmodeus argued that criminals had to suffer as a warning to others, a few made to suffer so that the majority saw the consequences. as usual, no flaw could be found in asmodeus's logic and indeed one godling's recognition and pronouncement of this instantly transformed him into a greater deity. another revelation made that day by the gods was the recognition of the principles of good and evil, forces in the cosmos by which the gods could and did further separate themselves on the basis of. those who favored evil offered asmodeus's host further patronage while those who preferred good drew further away from them.[50] the pleased gods had their intermediaries spread knowledge of the punishment for sins, truly believing no one would actually violate their laws, only for transgressors to arrive in their domain and asmodeus, allegedly aided by dispater, mephistopheles and others, to enact their lawful punishment. flayed, burned and otherwise tortured, the horrible screams of the damned filled the celestial realms and the flowers of their gardens dripped with blood. unable to ignore the horrors, asmodeus was once again charged, once again pointed out he was only enacting the rules they agreed on, once again was met with no counterargument, and once again proposed a solution. if the gods were unwilling to see the unpleasant side of the law, he would take his followers and create a perfect hell in which to enact the torment without them having to see it, in the empty land that would later be baator.[50] the gods were eager to see asmodeus gone and he was happy to oblige so long as they first made a pact. drawing forth a ruby rod of power he produced a document alleged to ensure that he and his forces would carry out divine will, specifying the fate of the damned and allowing his forces to draw magic from the souls. at least one god was suspicious, but asmodeus reassured them that it was for their own benefit, preventing them from becoming independent while still being able to fuel spells and powers away while away from them. the ancient deities of laws signed the pact that would determine hell's boundaries and the rules of damnation, a deal known now as the pact primeval.[50] asmodeus and his erinyes cohorts descended to the bleak and featureless baator and upon the bemoaning of his associates explained his plans. for many mortal years the gods of law and good reveled in their purified domains only to discover an alarming drop in incoming souls. conference with their clergies revealed that the forces of asmodeus, and this point called devils, were intentionally corrupting mortals, and a quickly formed divine delegation soon learned that baator had been transformed into nine tiers of horror, the souls harvested for power and transformed into mindless monsters to build a devil army. upon being told it was not meant to encourage sin, he merely pointed to the letter of the law with a smile.[50] while many suspected asmodeus got the better of his divine enemies with the pact primeval, no mortal had ever actually seen it.[77] as was often the case with legends, contradictions and sketchy details were abound, and alternate stories were acknowledged to exist despite its acceptance. furthermore, the legend was not only influenced by devils, but as it was told seemed heavily biased towards asmodeus, notably in one specific area.[50] if the story as a whole was to be believed,[50] then asmodeus's parting after signing the pact primeval was not as flawless and peaceful as portrayed. in truth, after committing himself to residing there he did not simply descend but was physically cast there by the gods. he plunged through the nascent layers he had already begun shaping (in some versions causing the plane to break and reform into nine layers) and continued to spiral violently even as the earth of baator itself protested. he fell until he could literally fall no further, hitting the deepest part   the pit; thereafter he laid and schemed even as his wounds still bled.[33] the myth of he who was was known as such because the name of the god around which it revolved had been lost, even from the codex of betrayal written by their last remaining worshiper.[220] asmodeus had used his magic and influence to erase all knowledge of the name from existence,[217] and so he was only known by titles such as he who was or he who once lit our way.[220] only a handful of mortal scholars remembered the name and it was whispered asmodeus dispatched powerful devils to kill any mortal who spoke it aloud, fearing it even in modern times.[47] in any event, it was by the goodwill and kindness of he who was that he allowed his archangels to rise to nearly equal exarchs and demigods in power. it was through them that he intended to spread peace and justice throughout the multiverse,[221] and the most powerful of these warrior exarchs was asmodeus.[217] late into the ancient war between law and chaos, the dawn war, after the fall of the queen of chaos and the removal of demons from play, asmodeus was among the deific exemplars of chastity and virtue appointed to guard the prison of tharizdun. but in the wake of the abyssal chaos another demon would sneak out to meet asmodeus in service to his own secret plans for power, pazuzu.[76] pazuzu flattered asmodeus, lamenting that his loyalty to the gods was rewarded with an eternal, thankless task. these words began to grow a seed of vanity, false pride, and eventually arrogance in asmodeus, who soon came to believe himself more righteous than his sworn deity. soon he head the whispers at the heart of the abyss and,[76] according to theologians, the once shining star of his god was sent plummeting into darkness.[221] abandoning his duties,[76] asmodeus plunged into the blood rift and survived long enough to do what no other had or did since; he found the abyss's core in its incalculable depths. he stole away a sliver of the abyss's black heart, which only tightened the grasp of evil on his being and would eventually cement the transformation of he and his followers into devils.[221][225] it was perhaps during this time of abyss that the darkened angel was beckoned into the fold of pale night, if of course one believed the rumors that he was graz'zt's father.[182][note 3] the methods of the greatest general of he who was only became more brutal with time, more than once causing the deaths of innocents alongside enemies. a falling out between angel and god ensued, and despite asmodeus's protestations and warnings, he who was stood by his decision to strip asmodeus of his station. rather than kill him, the merciful god left him broken in mind and body with his followers on the outskirts of his domain, perhaps believing asmodeus would come to regret his disobedience and pride, but asmodeus's pride outmatched any guilt he felt. he and his followers grew into their broken forms and the suffering angel plotted his revenge on all the gods who had idly forgotten the sacrifices he made in the war, including his master. waiting until a grim point in the war where the gods seemed to be losing,[217] he launched a rebellion alongside his allies[221] and using the shard of the abyss, forged into a ruby rod, slew his deity.[79][221] asmodeus's victory was short lived however,[76] for the devil's prize soon twisted into a damnation by the will of he who was and his dying curse. baathion, an idyllic, verdant, shining world of unequaled goodness and brightness was erased, its beautiful forests, oceans, and even the beloved garden of the god burned and boiled away by hellish flames until all that remained was the black rock, unending fire, death, and torment of baator.[221][47][226] the traitor angels were not spared hell's power; where they encamped while he was slain was where the curse was focused, submerging the traitors in intolerable flame.[227] all rebel angels were physically distorted[216] and eventually turned into devils[217] while those servants deceived into betraying he who was became the first hell knights.[228] finally, the curse left asmodeus and his company trapped in baator and unable to claim the full divine power of his murdered god.[47] contrary to its presentation in the popular "pact primeval" myth, baator was not uninhabited when asmodeus and his fallen company arrived.[122] instead, as some sages suspected, the plane was populated by a race of much older, much stranger entities known only as the ancient baatorians.[229] certain incalculably old texts purported that these were the creations of the baernaloths, but few outside daemon dominated regions held to a belief in their truth.[215] wherever they came from, the arrival of asmodeus's kindred heralded their disappearance, to the point the only obvious sign of their presence were the nupperibos, young who naturally grew from the larva (who appeared even before mortals existed) of the plane. these were quickly changed into lemures to prevent the return of the ancients and to obscure the truth, which was perhaps known only by the lords of the nine and dark eight.[214][230] as for what happened to the ancient baatorians, one of the most detailed, if not well known, origins for the elder evil zargon potentially held the answer. if this story was to be believed, the invincible tyrant was the father of the ancient baatorians and ruler of baator in eons past, presiding over a malevolent kingdom of running ooze. in yet another war, asmodeus and his allies massacred their progenitors and enslaving those who remained. asmodeus killed most himself, but despite the destruction of all their lords, zargon himself, even against one as mighty as asmodeus, was resistant to the worst he could muster. so it was that asmodeus, realizing zargon's weakness, ripped his unbreakable horn from his head and flung it to the material plane, causing the elder evil to reform around it.[231][232] considering that not even zargon remembered his past, it was possible this origin was untrue, but the ancient baatorians were real all the same.[233] furthermore, even millennia later, there still existed some outside asmodeus's control. the scattered and hidden subjects of whispered rumors, the ancient baatorians seeped through baator's isolated regions, through planar substance and the minds of residents. though they sometimes took material form, they otherwise manifested merely as the essences of beliefs and so their presence was virtually unknown and practically unknowable.[234] even so, asmodeus had unquestionably supplanted them and continually imposed their own order onto the race eons after the conquest.[214] leaving such timeless beings aside, there were rumors that asmodeus was not the original ruler of the nine hells. though he was the oldest remaining archdevil and his rule went as far back as recorded history, the once lord of the sixth lucifer and a figure called satan were allegedly lords of the pit before him.[88][8] with his fall complete and dominance over hell established, asmodeus set into motion his innumerable plans and schemes for reality spanning authority. many were his dark deeds, both certain and alleged, in aid of this goal, ranging from the corruption of figures of legends to acts that changed entire worlds and the multiverse as a whole. an exact timeline for these events would therefore be nigh impossible to establish, although the following were all before the one failed and infamous coup made to seize his throne.[4][106][113][188] upon landing in the bottom of hell, asmodeus invented the infernal language, or rather it formed spontaneously on his lips.[199] his blood would spawn many early devils,[106] although the baatezu at large believed they emerged from the plane itself, a not untrue statement at least later on.[214] asmodeus established the infernal bureaucracy[189] and carved up baator amongst his loyal servants, dividing the horrid domain into smaller realms and fiefdoms. he took bensozia as his concubine,[111] partially as a prize, and either seeded through her or adopted his daughter glasya.[113][131] during this early period asmodeus also thoroughly shaped the nine hells such that they were significantly different from their previous form[33] and in some ways unrecognizable from their more modern state. avernus, for example, was originally created by asmodeus as an obscenely beautiful paradise, a wonderland of infinite, alluring, enrapturing delights designed to tempt and ensnare mortals.[235] stygia meanwhile was suspected, if never verified, to have originally been a material plane world before the inhabitants pledged their soul and home to asmodeus for refuge from some world ending catastrophe, a bargain kept that ended with it becoming another hell.[188] asmodeus managed to stay on top in his established game of infernal politics, but it did not remain a static field.[30] one of the first lords to attempt to usurp him was levistus,[111] who was cast down from his position and replaced with geryon.[136] the new lord of the fifth initially hated this position before coming to appreciate it,[236] and the two would end up constantly vying for control of stygia. this fight was ended just after levistus's latest victory as a result of his heinous crime against asmodeus.[136] the official story was that levistus slew bensozia for rejecting his advances and offers to join his conspiracy,[237][144] but this was likely propaganda. the more likely, whispered version was that bensozia, who deeply hated asmodeus, entered a dark tryst of mutual exploitation with levistus, who came to her seeking secrets to use against him. in this version her death came at the hands of glasya, who had also been seduced by levistus and entered a murderous rage upon seeing the truth. the constable martinet covered up the crime lest asmodeus lose face and levistus was framed and sentenced to his icy prison.[111] the fallen archon triel, his spiritual rot allegedly engineered by asmodeus himself,[154] quickly mastered diabolical politics such that he not only took maladomini but erased all record of its original ruler.[238][154] later he was rewarded with rule over malbolge through moloch for some past wicked deed[111] and brought to watch the downfall of the previous ruler and his fiercest rival at the time, lucifer, ending in him and his consort being slain and their unsanctioned son being devoured by asmodeus.[2] the death of lucifer was speculated to have been the prompt for the self imposed exile of gargauth.[176] asmodeus had also maintained projects beyond the purview of the nine hells. per the origin of he who was, there were many gods who saw asmodeus as one who had cunningly rid them of a failing leader, and thus willing to secretly bargain with him for aid in the dawn war, as well as evil gods who were simply grateful of the removal of he who was. even so, most cursed him as a traitor and overtly shunned him, for decades not trusting him enough to grant him release and thus his god's power. this was warranted, for he made secret overtures to both sides until settling with the gods, who had decided to forge a pact of alliance granting him the power of he who was "until the primordials were vanquished".[217] between this and other clauses and tricks of wording that the furious and desperate gods did not fully consider the ramifications of, asmodeus granted himself the perpetual right to harvest souls. he had the foresight and economic savvy to create many pacts that seemed indiviually innocuous, but together, given the state of the cosmos, allowed him to avoid the diminished soul income of other realms and convert his master's domain into a torturous extractor of magical energy.[217][239] even so, despite having access to his god's power, he had not truly become one himself,[38] and was as much just another prisoner of the nine hells as he was its king.[240] while the yugoloths claimed to be responsible for the baatezu,[213] it was widely believed that asmodeus was responsible for the creation of the yugoloths. he had commissioned the new race of fiends from a coven of gehennan night hags in the hopes of creating an army not bound to the hells as the devils were. this plan, if true, ultimately failed, when in their petty squabbles the night hags lost the four books of keeping, used to command loyalty from the yugoloths, allowing them to become independent mercenaries.[241] at one point the fallen solar malkizid joined asmodeus before later angering him and being banished from baator, later becoming a yugoloth lord.[242] on the note of gods and fiends, asmodeus would later need to deal with the horn of zargon he abandoned. after regenerating around the horn zargon spent centuries climbing out from where he was buried, emerging in the city of cynidicea. he terrorized the populace before becoming its tyrant, appeased through live sacrifices that eventually attracted the rage of a barbarian nation from which said sacrifices were being obtained. zargon killed their champion and as an elder evil even several of their gods, until asmodeus entered the field.[231][232] immune to his divinity cancelling effects as an elder evil, asmodeus defeated zargon, encasing him in stone and burying his cynidicean worshipers along with their city. he did this only out of concern for zargon's escape rather than for the gods, and religious groups suppressed this alleged version of events, unwilling to let spread a tale where the gods were powerless and asmodeus saved the day.[231][232] throughout his rule in hell, asmodeus's longing for the power of the heart of the abyss never wavered.[76][79] many reasons, pragmatic, philosophical, and emotional had been cited and explored for why the blood war occurred, and among them was the shard.[79][78] even as asmodeus hungered for the rest, the abyss, and thus its demons craved the stolen piece's return, to punish the impudent thief and triumphantly return demonkind to its full power.[76][79] demonkind had been taken out of the original war between law and chaos since before asmodeus's fall from grace, since which they had experienced a mass extinction event and complete political upheaval ending with the dominance of the tanar'ri.[76][182] at one point a party of baatezu explorers set out to discover the planes as they were and a tanar'ri party spontaneously decided to do likewise.[78] both groups eventually discovered the home plane of their ethical counterparts and upon meeting their denizens immediately burst into violent, rabid hatred, with some from each group returning home to share their experiences, knowledge of each other now established. the yugoloths, who had been isolating themselves for centuries, for the first time offered their mercenary aid and for the first time betrayed their employers. so did the blood war truly begin.[78] at first this newly ignited war between law and chaos was simply a series of raiding skirmishes between two sides before growing into army level conflict. the balance of power swung dramatically, entire portions of neighboring planes sliding into the hells or the abyss before moving back.[78] devils poured into the abyss at an alarming rate, constructing fortresses nearby and within to enact their assault before the demons turned the tables and attacked the hells in turn,[76][79] bringing bloody ruination to once pristine avernus.[235] the context of the war gradually changed over time as both sides came to better understand each other and reality at large. the true nature of soul larva and the utility of mortals and their spirits became apparent, allowing war to be waged with little concern for casualties, and the existence of gods and celestials became clear to both parties. in the former case, it was believed either the yugoloths or baatezu destroyed a chaos aligned deity for its interference in the war. in the latter, the year long effort of a millions strong legion of aggrieved celestials ended in a week when both devils and demons united against them, leaving only a few thousand of the interlopers and encouraging caution in future moves against the fiends.[78][244] the trial of asmodeus, a play based on real events according to its author the aasimar bard anodius, allegedly chronicled one of asmodeus's greatest accomplishments. in the olden days of the blood war, per the chronicle, the angels of mount celestia accused asmodeus of terrible crimes, prompting the archfiend to unexpectedly protest and petition for his right to face his accusers and their charges in a court of law. after agreeing to hear his plea, asmodeus suggested taking the matter to an impartial judge, the being of absolute law that was the modron power primus. the angels, after carefully scrutinizing the contract he drafted, agreed.[28] in asmodeus's testimony he justified his actions in the blood war as in accordance with the dictates of law and rules of hell. he admittedly swayed mortals to evil, but attested neither he nor his minions breached contracts and always explained the terms, attributing the ambition of mortals dealers to their downfalls. mortals who refused were left alone and contracts that were somehow turned against the devils were still upheld. asmodeus also asserted that he was bound by the rules and traditions of hells to traffic souls, and it was by upholding them that he was above the demons he fought against. the souls he harvested went to the greater good of repelling the demonic hordes that would destroy all law and good if left unchecked.[28] for weeks primus patiently weighed the testimony of angels against the words of asmodeus before even his patience ran up to its limits and he announced that only a few of the remaining eager angels would be allowed to speak. asmodeus looked on with a smirk as one angel, zariel, pushed forward demanding to be heard and the forces of good broke into violent conflict. by the trial's end primus had reached no definitive verdict on the lawfulness of asmodeus. though his evil was evident it was not what he was on trial for, and meanwhile his angelic accusers were rebuked for infighting. asmodeus was, however, forced to carry his ruby rod with him at all times, guaranteeing he and his minions both the right to make contracts with mortals and an inescapable punishment if they breached those contracts, thus requiring him to make good on his supposed commitment to legality.[28] the reckoning was a series of complicated power struggle within hell, the culmination of millennia worth of warring and politicking that ended in an utter upheaval of the plane's rules, politics, and players.[139][245] this event seemingly coincided with the ploy of an increasingly combative baalzebul[156] to smear asmodeus's reputation as a competent leader by altering documents and interfering with the infernal bureaucracy, as well as an increasingly pressing abyssal invasion that almost broke into dis as a result of him husbanding his strength.[157] before the reckoning, the archdevils were granted far more individual power and acted much more openly, personally commanding their legions to fight alarmingly regular wars against both each other and demonkind (resulting in impressive victories for the demons). during this faction two factions, led by mephistopheles and baalzebul, competed in the belief that eliminating each other was their key to the throne. after a long prosecution, the final battle ultimately took place in baalzebul's maladomini,[245] partially (allegedly) due to his refusal to submit to punishment for his uncovered conspiracy.[157] yet even as the participants in this civil war plotted over who would succeed asmodeus, asmodeus himself was already a step ahead.[245] geryon and levistus had long fought over control of stygia, but just as the latter seized his latest victory it was undone for his actions regarding the death of asmodeus's consort bensozia.[90][111] geryon, unbeknownst to all others, had remained loyal to asmodeus and infiltrated the eight armies up to the highest level. on geryon's signal, the pit fiend commanders turned on their archdevils and their armies were destroyed.[245] in the aftermath of their civil war, the legions of hell had suffered horrendous casualties as millions of devils on both sides had died[245] and the center of hell's bureaucracy and documentation was in utter ruin.[245][157] the terrified archdevils were then shown asmodeus's unpredictability as well as his guile when he then reinstated the vast majority of the lords. in asmodeus's mind the lords had already learned their lesson, and if he was going to deal with treacherous devil lords then better the devils he knew.[245] on one end there were the archdevils who were given back their realms with no apparent consequence, his alleged old compatriots dispater and mephistopheles.[123][246] there were also the cases of baalzebul and mammon, who were cursed with forms they despised (among other punishments) but otherwise kept in charge.[130][157] in other cases he was more insidious, allowing belial to nominally step down and put his daughter fierna on the throne[137] while at the very least allowing bel to overthrow the previous lord of avernus.[89][119] loyal geryon and defiant moloch however (geryon having used his agents to deceive moloch into offending asmodeus) were exceptions and replaced with still frozen levistus and moloch's consort malagard.[173] other great changes were made to the hells too, in particular the rise of the dark eight. the dark eight seemed to exist in some capacity before as the dark nine, led by the late cantrum who was not replaced as doing so was seen as impossible.[247] consisting of the turncoat pit fiend generals, the dark eight were rewarded for their loyalty to asmodeus by being made the ministers of the baatezu with control over hell's blood war forces. this substantially shrunk the personal retinues of the lords,[245] who were required to pay them and the lord of the first with troops and equipment in exchange for them conducting the war.[166] despite substantially weakening them,[245] the lords were actually glad to be freed from personally dealing with that dreary conflict.[166] glasya, who played a role somewhere between instigating the entire reckoning as a move against her father and acting as his agent by exposing treachery and consolidating his power, was then forbidden from being mammon's consort and forced to take on responsibilities to maintain her status. namely she was crowned the queen of the erinyes and thus placed under the jurisdiction of the dark eight, effectively neutralizing her threat whilst, unrealized by her at the time, protecting her from angered archdevils.[111][119] thus did asmodeus prove himself the better of all who participated in the reckoning, dramatically reminding his archdevils of their position,[91] depolarizing the nine hells, and creating more fear, but also more hostility, towards himself than ever before.[88] the hag countess malagarde was still reigning in malbolge by the year of the dragon, 1352 dr, her last known communication having taken place somewhere in the month of kythorn. by the year of the arch, 1353 dr however she was slain,[49] at least partially by the will of asmodeus,[49][248] and replaced by glasya, who none of the other archdevils could challenge due to her position as asmodeus's daughter, their reduced armies, and the fear of starting another reckoning.[119][187] after eons the two had finally come to some sort of understanding and she had been granted authority over malbolge as a result.[127][33] part of his decision to bestow her with a layer could be traced back to her starting the first crime syndicate in the hells. exploiting a legal technicality, glasya forged currency by temporarily turning lead into gold, minting it into coins, and using them before they turned back, as the law only regulated their composition when being minted. given that she did not break the law asmodeus could not punish her, and so he instead chose to make her archdevil.[157] the promotion was as much a reward[127] and evidence of the boons of unconvicted criminality in hell as it was an ironic punishment, method of discipline, and way of keeping her ambitions in check.[188][157] the taming of his rebellious daughter earned asmodeus a renewed sense of political supremacy and grip over the hells like never before. the archdevils scrambled in reaction, fearful and anxious to please.[33] his seeming collusion in the easy felling of the hag countess heightened dispater's paranoia,[248] while the ascension of his ex lover frightened mammon into a campaign of economic warfare.[249] glasya's rise inspired fierna to independence, worrying her father and disrupting his planned invasion of the lower realms,[139] whilst making levistus fear he had been a mere pawn in asmodeus's plan for her ascent.[144] all the while she had been authorized by her father to recruit from the ranks of other archdevils, poaching top servitors sidelined for excessive ambition.[127] meanwhile, another new devil was soon to change the face of the infernal landscape. the former solar zariel, an alleged accuser in asmodeus's trial, was originally tasked with observing and tracking the blood war, but over time grew obsessed with the conflict. time and time again she urged that fellow celestials of mount celestia should join in the fray, believing that they could wipe evil from the multiverse if they only did so.[28][note 4] her breaking point was when idyllglen, a village under her protection, was invaded by the gnoll demon lord yeenoghu.[250] during the year of the bow, 1354 dr a rogue zariel and a force of mortals known as the hellriders she amassed commenced an invasion into avernus known as the ride, which ended in her buried under the bodies of dead fiends and the remnants of her host retreating back through the portal from which they came. asmodeus had her beaten form retrieved, allowed her to recover, and offered her bel's position of archduke from which she could fight the blood war herself. she accepted[114][28] only to be later imprisoned by the treacherous bel some time after.[251] on toril, by the year of shadows, 1358 dr, asmodeus had set into motion a plan to attain the divinity he had long sought through the warlock coven known as the toril thirteen. by transforming all tieflings into "descendants" of his, beings with his "mark" on their bloodline, he sought to become the racial deity of tieflings and thus possess enough followers to ascend to godhood.[252][253] the holy symbol of asmodeus on an amulet after the spellplague. when dweomerheart collapsed in the wake of the spellplague of 1385 dr, the wizard god azuth fell into the hells. asmodeus, sensing his opportunity, devoured the lesser deity and became a god himself, finally reobtaining the divinity he had craved for untold millennia.[38] although many believed asmodeus killed azuth when he consumed his divine essence,[38] in fact asmodeus had fused with azuth, and both gods coexisted in the same body.[255] most of the time, asmodeus overpowered azuth, using his divine powers while the god of wizards was in a dormant state.[256] but on a rare few occasions, azuth was able to gain control of their shared body, and because of his strange behavior many denizens of the nine hells believed asmodeus had grown mad, resulting in unrest within the hells.[257] the ritual of the toril thirteen finished during this year as well, after which most tieflings living in the 15th century dr were of the asmodean lineage and all possessed a similar devilish appearance.[253][49] his attempt to become their racial deity proved unsuccessful, although he had already obtained the divinity he was after at any rate.[252] using the fear that the blue fire of the spellplague was some form of divine punishment, he pitched himself thereafter as a deity able to hide or absolve sins.[202] the holy symbol of asmodeus on a ring after the spellplague. during this period asmodeus also forced the abyss to the depths of the elemental chaos with his new divine powers, thus doing the seemingly impossible and ending the blood war.[38] in reality however, both sides of the blood war were ready for a ceasefire, even if the truce was sullen and hostile. a new civil war was brewing in the nine hells and the constant power struggles between demon lords had become too great even for them, the endless loss finally becoming too high a toll to continue.[76][79] the overt violence of the blood war had merely transitioned into an intense rivalry of mortal corruption, and asmodeus knew even that veneer of peace was a fragile one. only a united demon front stood to overwhelm the hells and the only thing that could draw the demons from their own ceaseless feuds and rivalries would be an outside invasion. thus asmodeus spent this period attempting to muster the strength of the nine hells, intent on ensuring that the war restarted under circumstances favorable to him.[79] by 1486 dr, azuth had regained most of his strength and was able to choose ilstan nyaril as his chosen.[258] while asmodeus wasn't weakening, azuth was gaining enough control that they were struggling over their shared body. this conflict threatened the fundamental change of their natures if they fused into one god and possible their very existence, thrusting the hierarchy of the nine hells into jeopardy[255][257] and potentially putting the multiverse at risk if a civil war in hell spilt out into the planes. ilstan and farideh, one of the chosen of asmodeus, devised a plan to separate both gods and avoid a potential devil invasion of all the multiverse. [256] the holy symbol of asmodeus on a brand after the second sundering. the two contacted the god enlil through his chosen, kepeshkmolik dumuzi, and made a deal with asmodeus, who was fully aware that azuth was bound to at least and escape and concocted innumerable schemes to ensure a new divine spark. in exchange for permission from enlil to consume the untherite god nanna sin's divine spark, he agreed to release azuth from his body and resurrect nanna sin as a non god immortal. asmodeus thus became a god in his own right,[259] and on hammer 10 of 1487 dr, in a ritual performed in djerad thymar amid the first tymanther unther war, ilstan sacrificed his life to allow azuth to become an individual god once more.[260] at some point after the second sundering, asmodeus made a few more changes to the hierarchy of the hells. asmodeus was still indisposed by the time the demons had mustered the forces to restart the conflict, which was soon manifesting via at least one proxy conflict in the tymanther unther war.[261][262] by 1492 dr it was back in full swing, and asmodeus demoted bel and re elevated zariel to the position of archdevil of avernus, ostensibly due to bel's failure to muster a defense against the demon offensive.[14][121] he also made a ruling on the long standing conflict between belial and fierna; in a system where only one could occupy the position of layer ruler, he decreed them a special case who would be allowed to reign as equals.[135] asmodeus is named for the judeo christian demon asmodai or asmodeus originating from the deuterocanonical book of tobit and appearing in various legends and medieval demonology. a fallen angel of the same name also appears in john milton's paradise lost. the non canonical article "the politics of hell" in the dragon #28 by alexander von thorn details the history and politics of hell, giving a different history to that detailed above and connecting closely to real world myth and history. it discusses older kings of hell such as lucifer or satan whom asmodeus deposed. this idea was never considered canonical, but an allusion to it resurfaced in a vague reference decades later in the book of vile darkness, where it is stated that while asmodeus is the oldest devil in the nine hells, he may not be the original ruler. however, elder evils later made the original ruler zargon instead. in 2nd edition's guide to hell, it is stated that asmodeus was a lawful evil or corrupted lawful neutral serpentine entity who, along with his lawful good counterpart serpent jazirian, was responsible for the current ring shaped structure of the outer planes. asmodeus fell as they struggled over the proper role of law, eventually plummeting all the way to the serpent's coil in baator. guide to hell claimed that his wish was to destroy all creation by making all sentient beings atheists, thus negating the belief energy holding the outer planes together, so that he might fill the void and create it entirely in his own image, without the help of any other deity. few of these theories have appeared in subsequent books, or possessed a foundation in prior material, though the theme of asmodeus as a fallen being of law has remained. again in 2nd edition, hellbound: the blood war and faces of evil: the fiends present another version of baator and asmodeus's history and origins. they state that the baatezu only supplanted the original natives of the plane, the ancient baatorians, and were themselves first created as the lawful spawn of the general of gehenna's purification of the early yugoloths. the chronology of the blood war in hellbound also states that baator's lords of the nine only appeared in their positions around or slightly after the blood war began, but also before the existence of deities. asmodeus himself is left intentionally dark and largely undefined, though his power is made clear, with more detail devoted to the history of his race and their conquered plane. harkening back to 2nd edition, manual of the planes 3rd edition mentions "brutally repressed rumors" that the form of asmodeus seen by the other archdukes and visitors was merely a specter or aspect, and that his true form, that of a titanic, serpent like devil, hundreds of miles long, resided at the bottom of the canyon known as serpent's coil, so named for the outline he made when he hit the surface of nessus, still wounded from his fall out of the upper planes. no one who tells the story of the true form of asmodeus survives more than 24 hours after the telling. however, the origin myth which appears in v.3.5's fiendish codex ii: tyrants of the nine hells contradicts this, where asmodeus is a fallen angel and the original founder of the current, baatezu dominated nine hells during the signing of the pact primeval. however, this story is presented as mythology, and the codex itself admits that it does not tell the whole truth. the names of the gods involved (deities of oerth in the greyhawk setting) seem unlikely, as they contradict their own histories. it instead implies that serpent's coil is shaped for the spiraling path asmodeus fell, and that malsheem sits at the bottom of that canyon. in the 4th edition forgotten realms campaign guide, asmodeus is established as an ancient deity who was relegated to the position of archdevil and toiled for untold millennia to regain his divinity.

it’s quite hard to make and maintain healthy friendships when you run/work in a restaurant. the usual hours when people socially convene, do fun things together   you’re working. in fact, you’re serving or cooking for people during these exact moments. your hours are anti social and unless you were inclined for late night shenanigans with like minded delinquents (like your narrator used to), your chances of having pleasant meet ups, meals, walks and talks, are pretty much hinged on your days off, when you’re already feeling burnt out and not seeking any further human communication after a week of micro interactions with over 100 different customers. you’d rather stay in, have a quiet day, recharge and preserve a little sense of self to nourish your fragile little heart and mind. with these factors in mind, a lot of my friendships tinged on my pals coming to me, at the restaurant, as a bridge between my ridiculous work schedule and their ordinary 9 5 jobs. childhood friends, two of whom would visit me at the restaurant once a week. it became our routine, our medium for spending quality time together. unfortunately, though, despite the longevity of our deep rooted alliances, as my working life evolved, my bond with these two individuals became looser and looser. frankly, we had fuck all in common by the end. upkeeping these friendships felt like a dying marriage, both parties stubbornly partaking in a ritual where they’d visit me (separately), eat a shit tonne of food and not pay, conversations becoming tedious and downright irritating, and my annoyance and resentment growing by the week. one of the friendships (of the two) ended 5 years ago. after he’d come and visit me every friday for years, consuming all my food and drink and not offering to pay anything, ever, even once, we finally fell out for good. he was stood outside the front of the restaurant, smoking, when a homeless person asked him for a cigarette. he flat out refused and became irate, running back inside to say to me “can you fucking believe that guy asking me for a cig? that’s my cigarette, i worked for it, i earnt it   i’m not gonna just give him one.” i looked at him, breath reeking of all the free booze he’d just downed, like he was an actual moron, unaware of his own lack of self. when he went back out and disappeared from my vantage point as i was busy working inside, he came back in to say he got jumped on by a bunch of boys and shouted at me for not being there by his side. again, i looked at him, not a mark on his face or any signs of physical distress, and assumed he made it all up. when i stepped out of work with him by the end of my shift and probed this supposed incident, he became angrier, pushed me up against my restaurant’s shutters calling me a “cunt”, and tried to hit me. i never spoke to him again, my supposed best friend of the past 21 years. the other friend i mention, god, what an utter embarrassment. ours was also a long term, school related friendship which evolved particularly in 6th form. by this age, despite having known him for a few years prior, we became closer when i became quite ill through crohn’s disease and missed a lot of schooling as i spent a prolonged period at hospital and on the surgery table. my confidence was at an all time low, and his loyalty to me enduring and endearing when i needed it most. we’d be in his room, drinking bacardi breezers and smirnoff ice planning a night out most times. he’d brush his teeth relentlessly, 4 times a day, and would shower himself with versace blue jeans aftershave. he’d spray so much, i’d have to leave the room. that sweet, sickly smell permeating through every pore on my small, unwell body as we’d hit the town, talk about the girls we briefly dated, try to find new ones, and come back empty handed and sad. as the years passed, our common bond drafted in his romanticising our halcyon days back in 6th form, all the memories of our times together   which for me, were not quite as glorious as he remembered. the smell still stuck with me, repulsed me, to tell the truth, as he never switched odours through his formative years into adulthood. worse, everywhere we went, he’d bring up “mangal ii” into every conversation, loudly, unnecessarily. even on his stag do many years later, it was the one topic he’d bring up again and again. i found it all too much. he, by now a policeman, with all his policeman buddies, and me, the restaurant owner, had nothing in common. an avid fan of superhero movies and comics, and wrestling, and all things i considered supremely lame, he then developed a new addiction to having tattoos… of marvel, dc, star wars characters all over his pasty flesh. he was tattooed all over his torso with stupid batmen and ironmen and other childish figures, and turn up at the restaurant wearing shorts regardless of the weather, so everyone could see the tapestry to geekdom. i would be mortified, desperate to end the friendship, but he’d insist on coming to the restaurant all the time to meet me, but mostly to have a full platter of food for free. i managed to end things 3 years ago, much to my relief, by simply refusing to be best man at his wedding. he insisted i was, and i replied “hey man, we hardly hang out anymore and i barely know your fiancé, all we do is eat at the restaurant, i’d rather not be best man as it wouldn’t fairly reflect our friendship.” after his wedding fell through, so did our friendship, much to my relief. i recently checked and he’s since unfollowed me on instagram. truth be told, it’s the first time i respected him. at least he finally showed some conviction and dignity. good for him. last month it was my birthday. as the owner of the restaurant, i intentionally keep my distance with staff. i couldn’t say any were my “friends”, because i’m always a bit reluctant to blur the lines. that isn’t to say that i don’t have a great relationship with many of the crew here   thankfully, i do, particularly our core team. but just as i have felt used and frustrated by past friendships who have merged our bond with dining and using the restaurant’s facilities out of their own greed and ego, i am equally reticent to break any employer employee dynamics to keep things in balance. as it was my birthday, i felt like i needed to take a few days off to spend with loved ones, my kids, my girlfriend, my actual real friends doing fun things. there was a glorious meal at a local chinese restaurant with all my friends and family. a trip to the beach and an exhibition with my girlfriend. my kids bought me a cuddly goose toy, which they have now claimed as their own. but the truth is, i purposefully kept myself busy because i didn’t want to come in on my actual birthday fearing no one would particularly give a shit and i’d end the day feeling sad and resentful. i got a few messages from the team, here and there, and that made me feel a little less distant from everyone. but one gesture really stood out. it was 3 days before january 14th, and our kitchen porter, a gargantuan romanian angel in his 50’s named timur came up to me, rather shyly, and said “hey, isn’t it your birthday soon?” i said “yes, it is! how did you remember?!” he replied, “well, i’m not sure if you’ll be in for it so i got you a little gift”. i was so taken aback, i almost collapsed into tears. i didn’t expect a thing, from anyone associated with mangal ii. i accepted the package with the utmost gracious thanks, and unwrapped it in the next room, away from prying eyes: a bottle of versace blue jeans aftershave. i smiled, walked back in to thank timur, and reminisced about my ridiculous old friend. and then i remembered, my son has never received any aftershave before, he is 9, slowly evolving to becoming an elder boy, and might appreciate this childish smell. when i asked what he thought of the fragrance, he said he loved it. i said, “son, it’s yours.” i’m forever grateful for timur, and i truly value the gesture. the fact that his gift wasn’t in vain, that it’s passed on to my son and not being wasted away on my bathroom cabinet, fills me with a sense of continuity and relief. it’s not the present that counts, it’s the thought. what is a turk? when your parents hail from a land that has conquered its neighbours, and been conquered by its neighbours’ multiple times, when the bloodline has mixed so indiscriminately that your dna is filled like a united nations pamphlet, can anyone really claim to be solely one nationality? i can’t. my parents are both turkish and kurdish, the latter of which i do not speak or understand a word of as it was considered a dangerous language to repeat at home due to political tensions in the 90s. couple that in with the fact that my mum identifies as a sunni muslim, and my dad is agnostic, at best. not only that but he is from an alevi background, a religion many of you would not have heard of but which makes up to 10% of the turkish population. alevism is less religion and more culture, i would say. they are a shamanistic people who worship the sun, love folklore and music and arts, and are extremely tolerant and loosely liberal in their practices. and from personal experience, every alevi identifying person i know eats pork. so, there i am, half turkish, half kurdish, a mongrel of a person with dna tests stating that i am in fact mostly persian. my mum’s grandfather was an armenian priest. you add that all to the mix and it’s no surprise i identify first and foremost as a londoner, having been born in dalston   the one cultural heritage i can say i definitively feel at 100%. i eat everything. my dad eats everything. my cousins eat everything. much like aziz ansari’s character ‘dev shah’ in netflix’s ‘master of none’, growing up i would be going out to eat pork all the time and keeping it secret from my mum. the taboo, temptress pig and my dirty secret. i’d chew extra wrigley’s gum as my breathalyser kryptonite and try and mask my loin filled mouth when returning home. and yet, we have never had pork on the menu due to cultural sensitivities and fear of a backlash from the turkish community. i couldn’t identify one turkish restaurant in the uk which has pork on its menu, which is ironic because almost every caff i know in london is serving bacon, black puddings, and cumberland sausages, and is run by turkish families. but restaurants? we stay clear of that minefield, of fear of being ostracised, judged, shunned, and attacked. which is odd because the last time i checked, alcohol consumption was considered haram, but every turkish restaurant sells efes and jack daniels. i guess there’s levels to this religion game, and the pig sits at the top of the devil’s tree, its snout the pinnacle of hell. well, mangal ii has always done things a little differently. it’s why we are such a polarising restaurant (just look at our google reviews, either 5*s or 1*s, rarely much in between). the dining public either likes what we’re doing and gets it, or really, really fucking hates everything we stand for. and what do we stand for? we stand on the principles of not being bogged down by tradition, by expectation. we are a london restaurant, first and foremost   as my first ever newsletter attested. secondly, we have anatolian roots. we use local, seasonal british ingredients with turkish spicing and flavours, and use that as a template to harness historic turkish dishes with a modern, local twist. that’s it. my dad would tell stories of his childhood, and on occasion, they would hunt and eat wild boar. technically speaking, having pork on the menu would be somewhat authentic to the restaurant’s ideals, yet to this day we have not been brave enough to dip our feet in the pool of delicious lard. on sunday february 2nd, we will rectify that. recently, we have started working with alba   a service run by my good friend bruce clyne watson, a delightfully mischievous scotsman with a heart of gold, and crucially, an arsenal of outdoor cooking units   spits, grills, rotisseries, all very metallic and heavy and chained and barbarically delicious as he sets up shop in the outdoors and cooks at weddings, festivals, private functions, and with us. working together, we will be fusing braincells and creating menus to be consumed across the uk and beyond as we bring the mangal fire cooking experience to whoever wants it. our first foray was a local collaboration at abney park as we cooked whole lamb and did a turkish inspired sunday roast, which was a great success. our next venture will be at mangal ii where we will be cooking the whole pig on our grill. it is a brave but necessary step as first and foremost we want to create another joyous sunday to the paying public, working together again as we gain our match fitness for the spring/summer ahead, and fundamentally, i want to be able to serve pig here   even if it’s just this once. working with our head chef jack earls, the menu is an absolute belter. as much as bruce is a very proud highlander, jack has strong family ties to the west of ireland in cork, this is meat and drink for him, too. it feels ridiculous in 2025 to have to write a newsletter to soft launch my personal ties with pork consumption to have to try and justify such an event, but the world is where it is, and we cannot outpace it with modernism any sooner than the forces will allow. we’ve had copious amounts of lamb on the menu, beef, chicken, quail, duck, but never the forbidden pig. personally, i view all farmed animals under one umbrella: tasty delights. i am a man of no religion, and far as i can tell, a supremely vast majority of my carnivorous customer base indulge in pork. we will be treating the meat with respect and flavour, like any other we have served. the menu we provide is not turkish by any stretch, but every dish is finished off in our turkish ocakbașı, which aligns our ideals as a restaurant. that charcoal infused smoke, that flavour to me is inherently turkish. i respect religion. i respect the right for any person to practice their beliefs as long as it’s a personal choice and not forced upon others. i believe in religious tolerance, love and acceptance for all   regardless of religion, race, age, sexuality, gender identity, social economic status, disability, et al. we are all one. and for me, a pig is just a pig. an animal like any other   one i happen to find tasty and worthy of being grilled as its fats melt away and drip onto the coals, creating a vaporous enveloping flavour bomb as it rises from the ashes and coats the meat. so join us on our mangalba adventure, arrive with open eyes, pure thoughts, and hungry bellies (we will be serving pork belly btw   probably one of my favourite things in this culinary world). we are stepping into territories new, brave young turks that we are. history may judge as either pioneers, or monsters, or fools. but for that one day we will be feasting here at 4 stoke newington road like we have never before. tickets are live. go get ‘em. and if you’re planning a wedding, or a fancy garden party this summer, hit us up. mangalba is coming to y your inbox right now may be inundated with companies flogging gift card suggestions as a christmas present for your loved ones. i get these too  straight in the virtual bin they go. i don’t even open the emails, and as i delete them one by one, i narrate a “fuck off” with each delete. it gives me a minor satisfaction, and i cannot help myself. and here i am, writing our last newsletter of the year where i will try and convince you, the reader, to purchase a gift card from us here at mangal ii before christmas day as an offering for someone special in your life. i fully acknowledge the hypocrisy in my actions and hold my hands up (only for so long, because this piece here needs to be written and, well, i need my fingers). but we are all flawed and i am no exception. below i will list why you and your hard earned money should part ways via the channel of a mangal ii gift card (available to purchase through our website under ‘shop’). if the following doesn’t tempt you, nothing will! but i have faith   it’s that time of year where miracles happen, and in lieu of christmas tradition, here are twelve reasons i can conjure: 1. you would be paying for someone to have a meal here at mangal ii, most likely next year some point. it is useable for a good 365 days. it can be a rainy day refuge for someone; a little pick me up when they need it most! 2. we are not asking you for money to help us, i don’t know, open a new site and you get nothing in return. this is not a gofundme, not a crowdfunder. this would be a meal you purchase for someone (or yourself)! 3. i almost had a fight with a customer 3 weeks ago. he was an old man. like, really old. like, i don’t know   75? i almost got in a fist fight with a 75 year old man. he was being incredible rude and abusive all night, cornering me all evening (he was at least 6’5) and refusing to allow me space to clear his table or serve him food throughout, whilst belittling me and being incredibly condescending. all of his language had a colonial undertone, where he spoke down to me as if he were a pompous lord, and i was his servant, and by the end i simply told him to “get the fuck out of my way, and get the fuck out of my restaurant you prick” after he cornered me for a third time whilst lying about how cold his chicken was. my restraint in not hitting him after he said “who’s the owner, i want to know your name” and i replied “i am” and he said “no, you’re not”, deserves some sort of reward in saintly patience. for every moment you, the reader, have been spoken down to over your race, colour, gender, orientation, class, i request you add a quid to your gift card and treat yo’self when the mangal ii mood strikes later next year. it will be an act of solidarity against the condescending upper classes and how they treat and views all “others”. 4. next year, we will be bringing out an array of outlandish dishes. chef jack, chef jess, and the whole kitchen have incredible plans in the works and i for one am unbelievably excited to present it to you as and when they arrive. today’s investment of a gift card will be richly rewarded by tomorrow’s 10/10 meal. 5. i run this restaurant alone. it’s just me. everything i make from this (barely breaking even year upon year) supports me, my parents, and my two children. we have no investors, no backers, no savings, no compassion from our landlord or turkish customers who walk in without a booking and sit and eat and not understand what it is we do, who then proceed to leave a 1* review because what we do isn’t traditional, and this is then plastered on our google rating and that drags our score down and it puts off prospective new customers. buying a gift card today will ease our cash flow during a potentially very quiet january, whilst also affording someone (or yourself) a chance to dine here and really experience the joys of what we do. 6. we released a book this year and it is a thing of beauty. when you enter our website to purchase a gift card, maybe you could buy a copy of the book, too? may as well, lads. i dare ya. 7. we released a shoe with puma after collaborating with end clothing this year. this, you cannot buy, as they only manufactured 300 editions but my word, what a shoe. and more so, what a team of angels they have over there at end. they flew my brother and i out to our dad’s hometown in kayseri and we had a trip of a lifetime. it was magical. please watch the video when you have 15 minutes to spare: https://www.endclothing.com/gb/features/mangal ii an anatolian odysseyanyway, by purchasing a gift card, the recipient be able to come in here and see the shoe on display like a gallery piece. two experiences for the price of one! who needs ‘infinity mirror rooms’?! 8. one in ten restaurants are expected to close next year across britain. we have survived   and i don’t use that word lightly, for 30 years now, and we intend to stay afloat a few years yet. support us; support all restaurants you care about, because i assure you, many won’t be around in a few years. 9. speaking of which, we entered our 30th year last month. remaining open for three decades is no short of a miracle in our industry, especially as an independently run business. keep us going for a few years yet, because once it’s gone, it’s gone! there will not be a mangal iii. 10. sometimes you don’t know what to get someone for christmas, and any material present carries the risk of being underwhelming. but a gift card from a great restaurant? hell yeah, that is a great thing to provide someone you care about. you’re buying someone an experience, one they will undoubtably enjoy and savour, and they’ll leave that night happy and full, and they’ll probably send you a text thanking you, and you’ll feel pretty good about yourself. and it’s nice to feel good. 11. because we care. like, everyone working here today at mangal ii, they all care. our team are good people. there’s no workplace bullying. no cutting corners. no meanness. no lack of effort. we’re a small team, and a great team at that. i’d go to war with any and everyone in our roster, knowing full well they’ll have my back and i have theirs. a gift card will show how you support and love mangal ii and everyone working here. rather us than some restaurant that’s plush with arsehole head chefs harassing people and owners from a hedge fund background expanding all the time. no soul, no character, no story. just incremental growth at the expense of everyone else’s hard worked labour. boo! not ‘ere, though! not us! 12. if that old man comes back in, i will punch him. i promise. i’ve never hit a customer (or elderly person before), let alone cursed at one, but i am willing to make an exception. i’m ready x of all the furore and backlash of hugh corcoran’s post about dining etiquette, the one detail which struck me wasn’t the fact that his establishment does not have an instagram, or that they’re also a book shop, or that they serve £40 pies, or that you can book a table via sending a post card. it wasn’t even the language used   however divisive and reeking of an age of tradition, almost coming across as elitist or pompous. i didn’t care for any of these details because i always expect this level of contempt for your average diner who does not have the means to fork out £60 on a meal by someone who refuses to even have an email set up for bookings or enquiries. a couple of months ago i wrote a newsletter in the heat of the racist uprising in the summer, through the viewpoint of an actual thug. i wrote via the prism of racist individuals i’d encountered growing up in chingford, and particularly channelled my neighbour in waltham abbey   whose horribly abusive behaviour towards my then wife and family forced me to sell our home and escape the daily harassment and fear we lived in. i wrote it and received a lot of backlash for being classist. the racism i have encountered throughout my life has very often been at the hands of the working class, and with myself coming from a working class background, i did not realise the discriminatory nature of the prose i produced until it was brought to my attention. whilst i stand by what i wrote, because it was real to me and my experiences and my interactions growing up as a person of colour in the suburbs of london, i can also appreciate the condescending voice the piece may have elicited. but i always write what’s real to me and my feelings, and i have suffered substantial horrors at the hands of the protagonist like figure in my piece. so, you know, it is what it is. i wrote what i knew, and it was channelled in anger and resentment at how i’ve been treated in this society. i should have mentioned it at the time, but the discourse and comments became so polarising (with some defending the piece and others condemning it) that i left it alone, hoping not to stoke any more fires. which brings me back to the yellow bittern. whilst i could condemn his manifesto for dining out, i feel it would be hypocritical on my part after my recent creative output. what he wrote was tone deaf and dripping in aristocratic belittlement towards your average diner and their modest means in the age of a cost of living crisis. but it was probably real to him and his blinders, shaped by his way of growing up and understanding of restaurants and what they should embody. so, i can’t knock that. i mean, i can, and i disagree wholeheartedly with so much of what he said, but i’d rather not dissect it bit by bit because i do not know this man and know how he thinks, feels. and i’m certain he wrote his piece in earnest and with the best intentions of preserving the future of his spot. what really bothered me, however, is the fact that their café/restaurant/bookshop, is cash only. this really irked me because it wasn’t scrutinised enough, nor was it the main topic of discussion. when an ethnic restaurant is cash only, the narrative is “they’re tax dodgers”, “they underpay staff and use cash so they can claim benefits”, “they’re not contributing to the economy”. when a painfully middle class man runs a cash only spot, no one screams injustice. no one questions the intentions. no one accuses them of stealing, of ducking and diving, of hiding their figures from the tax man. i’m not accusing them of doing so. the same way i don’t feel like mangal 1 around the corner being cash only does. i just want a level playing field. and when questioned about their ethos with the stacks of cash in the register and none of the electronic receipts, the proprietor explained “cards leave out interesting people in society who are cash in hand. frankly, i’d also prefer it if clients didn’t use their phones.” erm… ok then. before all this kicked off, a month ago i went to one of my favourite caffs in london   the hope worker’s café in holloway road. i’ve been going there for years. it does all your breakfast classics, and lots of greek homecooked dishes too. it’s cash only and it’s run by a middle aged greek couple. i love it. i was there having breakfast on my own, minding my own business (i was allowed to use my phone here   imagine the luxury   being allowed to conduct such brutish behaviour in public!) when two builders came in, much like my old neighbour terry who terrorised my family in essex. as soon as they walked in, one of them said aloud “ahh this is more like it, a proper caff. lovely” and he went to order at the till (as you must at this fine place). he requested some items, i forget which, because the next thing he asked was for a glass of tap water. the lady, the owner taking the order said, “i’m sorry but we do not serve tap water here, you can buy a bottle of water for £1”. the man, much like my old neighbour who i portrayed in my newsletter “we want are cuntry back (scroll down for it)”, was immediately apoplectic. “you don’t serve tap water? why the fuck not?!” his response was dialled up to 11, instantly. the lady calmly explained “well, since covid we stopped doing so because then everyone wouldn’t pay for drinks here and we lost money. it costs to use washing up liquid and there are water bills”. see, i think this is absolutely fair. in a caff where you can fill your belly for £4, it is completely right that the owner tries to squeeze profit out of the dried up lemon, extracting the last sip of juice it can, because everything there is unbelievably cheap (and delicious   go, go, go). the man did not take kindly to her explanation and said “yeah? well with an attitude like that i’ll take my business elsewhere! fuck you and your fucking caff, you fucking greek bitch!”, and stormed out. i was gobsmacked   did i really just witness what i did?! the entitlement of that bastard, the way he spoke to the older woman, the racist language, the contempt. it was horrible, and it triggered a lot of painful memories of men like him speaking to my own mother growing up, whether it was my parents’ ex neighbour shouting at her because my siblings and i were being loud, or another tradesman in a van yelling at my mum in traffic for a driving discrepancy, or my old head teacher at primary school berating my mum for making my brother and i have a circumcision (as is turkish custom). i felt an immediate urge to console the woman but after asking her if she’s ok, she seemed to bat it away and started angrily reacting to what happened to her husband at the back in the kitchen in greek. i left them alone, walked out, and felt rage. rage at how easily and readily this man abused this woman. the caff is cash only, prefers not to serve tap water, and is run by a small team. much like the yellow bittern. i wonder if that horrible man went to the latter and tried to order anything, and was gently informed that they prefer if he didn’t have tap water but a gallon of wine instead. would he react the same? in fact, i don’t have to wonder because i know the answer. not a fucking snowball’s chance in hell. people feel more entitled to scrutinise ethnic minorities over the bourgeoise/white middle classes here because they feel above them. they can take the piss out of cash only takeaways in whitechapel run by bengalis when they turn up at 12am, belligerent and disrespectful, but not bat an eyelid at the yellow bittern because they explain that cash brings in interesting characters (in an age where reporting of crimes is rarely followed up by police and muggings are a plenty in inner london, who the fuck even carries cash around?!). this for me was the most revealing reaction. not the ridicule they received, but the apathy towards their outdated cash only stance. i guess everything they preach is outdated. and that’s the way they want it. as the weather cools, and the temperatures fall, mangal ii breathes again. the bookings increase, the finances stop getting pummelled, and there is hope. every year, it’s the same. from june to august, as the fires burn the charcoal at our premises, my brain is inflamed and my chest bursts with demonic fear. “we’re fucked”, i keep telling precisely no one because i can’t bear to share my worst realities coming to light. so i keep telling myself “we’re fucked. we’re fucked. we are well and truly fucked”, as i lay awake at night tossing and turning, seeking peace and knowing it won’t arrive whilst the sun blazes. having a homogenous customer base is a double edged sword. on the one hand, you can make decisions with the menu and know the majority will receive it well. you know your clientele enough to believe that when something works, it will work for most. that’s because a substantial portion of our customers are pretty much the same demographic: aged 25 45; middle class; knowledgeable about food and produce; considerably cultured; excited to be here. on the flip side, the following is problematic (for us, in a business sense):   they all go to glastonbury and other festivals, so they eat out less in the lead up/aftermath to save money and social engagements until the party season ends   they all go on mini breaks abroad during the summer months, again cutting back on spend like meals out to balance holidays outgoings   they all want to be at a pub garden/outdoor al fresco dining space/a park somewhere, when the summer hits   they don’t crave hot fire coal cooking when that is served up indoors, it’s practically the last thing they desire   ironically, anyone cooking up anything as long as it’s feasted upon outside is immediately favoured and sought after i get it. when it’s 34c i don’t want to be at mangal ii either. unlike you, the reader, i don’t have a choice. i have to suck it up and pray for rain (i am at my wits end by mid july and will happily summon an ancient rain dance to the aztec gods if it will bring results). throughout these hellish months, the very season that those who are not in my position (as “fretful restaurant owner”) very much look forward to all year, our restaurant sees an average 25% drop off in revenue. seeing as most hospitality venues are already on the knife’s edge when it comes to the fine tightrope between survival and death, that decrease is monumental. but today, it rains. the air cools. our smoke lures you in. and you are hungry. i silently pray my gratitude to the rain gods.      last week, much to my great shame, i had to go to a private members club. i can’t get into specifics but it was for a potential event to promote a thing related to the restaurant that is out soon, which you all should buy because the thing itself is great and my brother and i wrote and created it and, yeah, that thing itself   i am supremely proud of. but i digress. i had to go to a stupid club in the middle of central london to meet people who floated the idea of having a special themed evening promoting this very thing. prior to my arrival, at no point in the corresponding emails was i informed that i had to wear a blazer at said stupid club for stupid rich people. so, i arrived with my rain jacket, tote bag, trainers, like any normal mid 30s londoner. i was early, which if any of you know me, is a rarity as i often run on “turkish time”. i was early because i was a little nervous, not sure what to expect. upon entering, i was swiftly told by the man at the door that i may need to borrow a blazer when i go in. an immediate uncomfortable introduction for anyone. i walked in and the reception glanced me up and down a few times and asked me who i was here to see. after informing them, they told me they would check their diary to see if this was the case, and for the time being if i could please take a seat across them. 10 minutes passed and they didn’t say a word, whilst a multitude of extremely wealthy, mostly short men in their 50s arrived. they were greeted with warmth and courtesy, led to the bar, or upstairs. they all seemed to carry an umbrella, which the reception was more than happy to keep hold of whilst your lucians, and barnabys, and bartholomews, were given a freedom pass to mingle and spend presumably £63 on a cocktail. i sat there and waited, watching the movements of the elite. the lack of stress lines on their skin. the seamless steam of their ironed suits hanging elegantly off their torsos. the softness of their hands, untroubled, never clenched, never scarred. they’re aliens to me. that world is alien to me. i sat there and waited, already regretting even entertaining the prospect of such a collaboration, knowing full well from the get go i would not go ahead with it, and that i had turned up out of morbid curiosity. the reception didn’t acknowledge my wait there once. i sat and waited, and by the end felt like one of the discarded umbrellas, lying in storage until its owner picked it back up again. but did i feel bad? no. the lack of hospitality aimed at me was presumably because: 1. i’m not a member there 2. i wasn’t wearing the correct attire this was not on me, but rather, their outdated rituals. so, i thought “fuck ‘em”. i sat, and waited. the people i was there to see arrived, we went upstairs, and they floated ideas. by the end, i asked “will i be paid for this event”   to which, unsurprisingly, the answer was “no. but you get to dine here one evening with a +1”. i think the last place on earth i would dine at is a private members bar, even if it’s free. but thank you. i guess that’s how the wealthy remain wealthy. you invite a restaurant with a 30 year heritage to hold an event at your club, and assume by being invited and “accepted” in the first place, by virtue that is a currency which will feed the restaurant’s insecurities and desire to “belong”. you offer them status and a platform, rather than actual money. because that’s all for you to keep and spend and circulate amongst your warped circle. mangal ii does not need you. you clearly need mangal ii, to boost your “authenticity”. to sponsor an inner city establishment owned by people of colour. to be “in” with the cool lexicon. or whatever. i’m not even angry at this exchange, just mildly bemused. that world, the elitism and its protection, seems so removed from reality. where the rich only mingle with the rich, and a whole majority of society is excluded as they seek refuge inside the gates of gold. where the food banks and the poverty of london is blocked by the noise of “yah, yah, yah”. i appreciate that the version of the restaurant today is not one which can feed the masses like it did in the past. we’ve changed substantially to pursue a gastronomic vision which cheap produce could not provide. i am guilty of that, and i know that in itself was an exclusionary act that shunned a lot of my old regulars who could no longer afford to dine at mangal ii as frequently as they used to. i apologise. i had to, otherwise my business would have gone bust and my livelihood put at risk. the old method wasn’t working anymore (for us), and i had to be proactive. that does not mean i am ignorant to the world itself, to its dangers, to its disparity between rich and poor. and the last thing i will ever tolerate at my own restaurant is a potential customer coming in and being treated as a lesser being.     i fully recognise my disdain for the lifestyle of the supremely rich has a strong correlation with me being a business owner who worries about money. but at my core, i hate exclusionary behaviour. i hate snobbery, and i cannot stand exploitation. so, we stay in our lane whilst they draw lines. two asteroids orbiting but never colliding. one with substance, the other at a fragile risk if another element contacts it, smashing to smithereens. there’s more light over here, despite the darkening of days. and better yet, no dress code. we want are cuntry back i’m terry and i want ma cuntry back. i’m not raysis, i woz sayin to hassan at the kabab shop lass nite “haz, ur alrite, but it’s all dem other lot comin’ ere that take benefiz that riles me up.” and has didn’t say nuffink but that’s only coz he new i woz rite. he usually gives me xtra free chips wiv my weekly orda but that nite he didn’t. guess he forgot to. next time i go in i’ll remin him that he owes me dose chips coz he usually gimmes it and i’m sure he’ll gimme what i’m owed and wot i dezerv. he’s lucky me and da boiz didn’t smash his windoze this week when we woz all out protectin are land. fuckin police woz all der, stikkin up for all da scummy assilam seekaz. fuckin police arrested sum of us lot. if ma grandad, who fort in the wor, saw wot happend he’d ov turnt ova in his grave. police arrestin innocen britesh people who are tryin to do the polices job protectin the streets from all the forren rapiss and feeves and rapiss. anyway, i’m terry and i’m angry. i tol my wife, well, ex wife sharon, dat it’s bad enuff the kids don wanna speak to me no more but tell dem ther dad is out there doin his part to mayk dis cuntry betta and get it back to wot it woz befor all da bordaz opend up and we lost wot dis cuntry woz all about. we woz an empia, we ruled the world. we went to afrika and indya and jamayka and afrika and we went ther and we gave all dem lot a propa structa, we bult roads and mayd skools for dem and showd em how to live propa, and yeah, maybe we took sumfinks bak with us like tea and gold, but dats a small pryce to pay for wot we gave dem. and how do dey repay us? dey all come ere and took all our housin and sure summof dem are alrite and dey worked for the nhs and they managd to fit in but all dem other ones can go do one. we’re full up, and every day mor and mor of dem try and get ere by boats tryna steal are jobs. anyway, i woz sayin to sharon “imagin if dem lot didn’t mayk it hard for me to get a propa job fings cud have gon differnt for all of us”. sharon wozn’t gettin it tho, she sez “terry, you literally were the worst husband imaginable. and a horrible father. you never tried to hold down a single job despite many chances. and whenever you had one, you spent all the money at the bookies and at the pub. i hate you. please don’t make me call the police, you know you’re not allowed to contact any of us”. sharon, always woz a sour puss. never had a sens of humah. it’s alwayz “police” this and “restraining order” that and “i’m counting to ten”. silly sharon, just doesn geddit. stephen yaxley lennon, sorry, i meant “tommy robinson”, he getsit. he sez wot all dem lot in the housiz of parlamen don’t say. i woz tellin my gp, dr singh, dat he’s lucky he’s gotta job ere treatin sik people coz if i had my way we’d have only britesh doctors and britesh payshunts. i woz tellin him how tommy woz rite about are cuntry and how hard it is to get an appointman, and how dis cuntry is brokken. dr singh started bleedin off about how “years of austerity, coupled with gross negligence by the tories, and a toxic media landscape, has perpetuated this divide in society and growing tensions between the working classes and the elite”. honessly i couldn mayk out half the wordz he woz sayin. maybe it’s his akkscent, i jus couldn understan coz of dat huge turban he woz wearin. by the end he stoppd talkin rubbish and gave me my rezults and tol me to cut back on the fry ups and cokayne and the fosterz. i woz fuckin livid, i woz gonna swing for him ther and den! comin here and tellin me wot i can and cannut eat and wot i can and cannut stik up ma noze! i sez to him “tommy robinson doez cokayne all da tym and he's doin alrite, wot u gotta say about dat?! eh?!” and he goez “tommy robinson is literally in cyprus right now, inciting hatred and fuelling a far right civil war. is this the man you look up to?” and i sez “fuck off back to ur cuntry u fuckin mug!” i left der pretty upset dat i’d been verbaly attaked by a dockta dats suppos to mayk people feel bettah. i needed to let off a bit of steam so i chekd my fone coz dat often helps distrakt me from all the fayk shit people sey nowadays. i log on to ma facebook to see wots actualluy goin on in the world, and i come akross dis t shirt: “love: kebabs hate: racism” i fort to maself “wot???? wots kababs got to do wiv anyfink?!” i love kababs, but i’m no raysis, i just like wot i like and i like britten how it woz before. den i got finkin “kebabs… they’re mayd by turks and they’re not whyte and dey got ere and took jobs and now dey feed us” and it got me reelly angry again. i wantd to tear oppen my stomak and pull out all da kababs i had yesstaday. i felt sik. i been eatin kababs all ma life and didn’t fink how forren it woz until i saw dat t shirt on facebook. den i lookd around my flat, and notissd more forren fings. i saw my frigg magnet from my trip to benidorm. my bedsheits were from ikea, which is from belggim i fink. good fink i never woshed it once coz it don’t deserve are clean water. my shoes had “made in cambodia” printtid in dem. my tv, where gb news woz playin, i realleyez woz mayd in japan. my head woz spinnin. evryfink woz forrren. i needed to get ma head klear. one bump of cokayn chilld me out a little. but i culdn’t believ wot i woz seein and realiyzin. i felt ma chess tytten and struggld to breev. i cud smell toast, like smoke all arroun me. woz i dyin? i still had so much i wontd to acheev, like punchin a small brown elderly lady and torchin a mosk. my life couldn’t end now, could it? i fell, and bangd my head on the floor. well, i muss have a massiv head coz my neybah downsterz herd me fallin. paulina, my neybah, she’s from poland i fink. she ran upsters and nokked on my door but obviassly i woz unkonsush so i cuddnt respond. she musta nokked like 30 times and got no ansa. so she calld 999 and next fink i no i’m in an ambulans. the paramediks, i dunno if they woz afrikan or jamaykan or wot, but they woz definitly black. i woz scared dey woz gonna stab me but they took me to a & e and from der on the rest is a blur. been here 4 dayz now. there’s a chineez fella across me, he’s old, doesn’t say a word to me. so fuckin rude! one of da nurses told me he can’t speak since his stroke but i reckon that’s just an excuse. and people call me raysis! unbeleevable. i’m sad i can’t go on any of the peesfull protess. i’m stuk ere for a while whilst i get round da clok care by a bunch of forreners workin at the hospittal. but just you lot wait when i get out, i’m comin for ur town centre. i’ll smash evry brik if dats wot it takes to get this cuntry back up again to wher it belongs. i’ll burn evry library. i’ll punch any teacha dat stands in my way. i’ll do anyfink to protect are kids, are whyte kids. am i a hero? not for me to sey. i’m just terry and i’m proud to be britesh. the last time i drank alcohol was 3 weeks ago today. i am 21 days sober. this is no milestone, no cause for celebration, no victory lap. but for me, it’s huge. the longest i have gone on without a drink in my adult life, and a path i want to continue on   without a final destination in mind; without an estimated time of arrival. there will be no detours, no shortcuts. going off piste to get pissed is what i will avoid. i am navigating through this journey one day, one step at a time. the last time i drank alcohol was at the army and navy pub. england were playing woefully against slovakia and the garden was packed to the rafters. whilst kick off was at 5pm, i only planned to be there until 4pm, stopping for a quick pint after a lunch down the road with a friend who was visiting from portugal. we stopped by for 1 or 2, just 1 or 2, as i intended to go to work from there slightly merry, slightly looser, and run the floor with service whereby we’d inevitably be extremely quiet that evening due to the big match and the heat wave keeping punters away. one, maybe two beers. in, out. then back on the graft, leading by example, fulfilling my self imposed duties. sadly, as an alcoholic, things do not often pan that way. as an alcoholic, as someone who is prone to stress due to the nature of my job, who is prone to anxiety due to my upbringing and traumas, i often found myself spiralling out of control after the second pint when i am already feeling heightened negative emotions. that often means i become blackout drunk, where i lose all memory of the last 2 3 hours of the night, and wake up the next day miraculously wondering how the hell i even made it home in one piece? and then the self loathing kicks in. i want to kick the shit out of myself. i want to crawl in a hole and have the ground swallow me up. i want to run, run anywhere, but run away. to switch my phone off and go awol. to message everyone and ask “was i a dickhead last night?” but equally to avoid everyone because i am afraid of what they’ll reveal to me, about me. i want to die. and there i am, having flashbacks of the night before. i am arguing with jim, the landlord of the army and navy, because he won’t let in someone who is supposed to join us. someone who i have never met before, by the way, but i take it personally because i am by this stage 5 guinness deep. i keep pestering him, and like a broken record he is telling me “i said no more entries” and i see 5 people leave and say “look! look! they just left, surely you can let one more person in jim? eh? jim? i thought we were pals? jim??? jim, why do you hate me so much? come on jim don’t be stubborn. jim????!!!” and jim finally snaps and shouts at me, full of rage “i said no more entries and that’s that   now leave me alone!” why am i arguing with jim? why am i drunk? why am i not at work? what am i even doing? all these thoughts mask my brain the next day. i fucked up, again. i went too far, again. how many times this year, ferhat? how many more times? what’s the end goal here? i am twelve. it’s saturday and i head to work at mangal ii with my dad because it is the only way i get to see him and spend time with him. my parents aren’t divorced or estranged   it’s just that he works 7 days a week and always in the evenings, so i never get to see him except in the mornings before school where i kiss his forehead as he sleeps and i take the change out of his jean pockets so i can buy sweets. the restaurant has a small bureau downstairs back then, and mid service, when no one notices me disappearing, i sneak into the devil’s lair and open the bottles of baileys, tia maria, gordon’s gin and smirnoff ice, and take sips out of them all. i am twelve and i am drinking straight shots of alcohol in my father’s restaurant because… well, i don’t know why but i have this urge to. my dad drinks all the time and my uncles’ drink, and all our family get togethers are piled with grown ups getting drunk and arguing and eventually fighting, and it’s all my tiny child self has ever been exposed to, so i figure i may as well give it a bash because that’s what every male role model does in my life. i drink it and it tastes like shit but the next week there i am again, back on the horse, taking shots and feeling a slight buzz, and i keep it all secret. i figure, my alcoholism started there, at mangal ii. there are many more anecdotes, all negative, when i tie in getting drunk with my working life   the two intertwined like hell and fire. there’s the lock ins. the afters. the mess. the time i was handcuffed and bundled in a police van. but also, there’s no need to overexpose myself any further. i am, or shall i say   i have been, reckless. i used to brush it off to mates and say “yeah, my life’s been a bit wild, init? a bit rock n roll.” in hindsight, with maturity, i can categorically say that this is absurd. a completely stupid take. embarrassing. there isn’t a single thing that is cool about getting drunk. more than anything, it’s sad. a chronic pattern of behaviour passed down to me as it was normalised to me as a child   often through the medium of the workplace (my family restaurant) as i saw my own dad in action, my own cousins who’d work there, all getting smashed. subconsciously, i mirrored them, thinking that was the biproduct of working in hospitality. that chefs and waiters and restaurateurs all got fucked up because it’s part of the culture. it may yet be true. but it doesn’t need to be my truth. not anymore. my drinking had increased over the last 3 years. the blackouts more frequent. the regret and realisation of the consequences of my drinking more prevalent. the desire to stop, to change, to moderate it or something, anything, enhanced. but there was always an occasion   a friend’s restaurant invitation, a birthday, a favourite customer coming in and asking me to join them for a glass of wine, a trade tasting, a gift sent by a supplier. there was always a reason to keep drinking. there always will be. now, i realise this acceptance is just a cop out. i can’t avoid life, and whether i drink or not is not anyone else’s responsibility but my own. i can always find an excuse to drink and absolve myself of any accountability. now, though, i see how that is a trap for me to revert to alcoholism. i think about how i will be at the beach in turkey in 3 week’s time, 35c intense heat as the sea washes over my feet. the shop next to the shore selling ice cold efes beers for £1, and how i’ll be thirsty and dying to quench that. and then remind i myself how tasty lipton ice tea peach flavour in a can is. i think about my best friend’s wedding coming up in september and how i’ll be giving a speech as best man. and how, now, it will be with a sober voice   no shots or champagne to settle the nerves whilst i try and make 100 people laugh. i think about the mangal ii book launch party we will hold in october with all my nearest and dearest present. how i’ll have to work the room, charm everyone and keep them entertained   all without my muse, my little pick me up, my old trustee alcohol to give me that edge. i will be raw dogging it. and i think, “you’ve got this”. babysteps. it wasn’t easy for me to write this latest newsletter, and it deviates a little from what a restaurant should be saying. but my descent into drinking started here. and the last time i drank, i was avoiding work. the cycle feels complete now, or more accurately, broken. and for that, i feel whole again. you’ve heard by now, yes, we wrote a book. spent all of 2023 working on it   my brother sertaç with all the recipes, directing the visual aspect too, with justin de souza as photographer, plus his anecdotes of how he became a chef, his influences, and his vision. it’s not my place to write on his behalf and his processes that allowed this book to form   i can just say it was very intensive for him, a lot of effort to produce a wonderful encyclopaedic amalgamation of recipes past and present. 60 in total   that’s no joke. i think he (and my dad as he sees his recipes come to life in book form) can truly be proud of the output as these dishes are transformed onto print. i know i am. i did the storytelling. essays about mangal ii, its history and my role within in. plus, my own ethos on service and hospitality. it took me a whole year to compose these 10 pieces, plus the interview i conducted with my dad. no major spoilers, but what birthed from these is raw emotion, placenta and all. nothing sugar coated, glamourised or falsely represented. i had to dig deep into a realm my demons tried to supress. confronting my own experiences, my own feelings, was very intrusive and put me in a very vulnerable position, especially as someone who views himself as a private individual who leans more towards introvert than extrovert. i also have an aversion to attention   i’d sooner be a recluse than have my face planted in newspapers or on tv. but that seems exactly what will be happening in the following months this year as we promote the book. stepping out of my comfort zone is a necessary evil when i signed a book deal. you can’t jd salinger it in this day and age. creating the body of work is one thing; shouting through the hilltops of mass media, podcasts, literary events, and magazines interviews is an altogether separate beast. one sertaç and i will need to tackle whilst balancing real life responsibilities. it’s a territory i have dipped my toes in when the restaurant first received an avalanche of attention post lockdown, but one i never fully plunged in. now there will be an ocean of noise and media obligations i will have to soak myself in until the end of 2024. 3, 2, 1, bombs away as i deep dive into this murky world of repetitive questioning and overexposure. i’m not complaining, it is what it is. but it seems unlikely that i will be embracing it, truth be told. and i guess the part of me that is dreading it a little is because i will be taken back to 2023 with each line of questioning. 2023 was not a fun year. 0/10 do not recommend at all. first, our operations manager left, which meant i had to take over most of his duties whilst working services, running a business, and being a father. his departure was the right call for all involved as his role became redundant after we implemented the changes necessary to make our business more operational, but it still added substantially to my hectic life/workload. then, more pivotal, my brother announced he was leaving. i won’t go over this again as i have written about it in previous newsletters. essentially, it made me the sole individual directing mangal ii. i was alone with every decision, every risk was mine alone, and every challenge i had to deal with without a partner. i have a supremely dedicated team around me, which made it easier and less isolating. but at the end of the day, it will be myself who shoulders the responsibility. this realisation was a hard pill to swallow and made me fearful about failure. but it’s one of those situations where you sink or swim, and despite the high tide i paddle. i keep paddling. and there’s the coast, i see it today. no longer do i feel lost at sea   but 2023, for a while, i did. 2023 also brought a lot of changes in my personal life   which i won’t indulge in too forensically. but essentially, i had to move back to my childhood home   albeit, temporarily, whilst i was awaiting my flat in chingford to be vacated. this took 6 long months. for 6 months i was living at my parent’s home, at age 34, divorced dad of two, running a business alone, and single for the first time in 11 years. unsurprisingly, this realisation didn’t do my self esteem any world of good. i felt like a bit of a failure whenever i thought about it (which i did, constantly), like i’d lost everything and reverted to square one   the old family home. i drank a lot. i went out a lot. i was a loose cannon, and all because i didn’t want to sit at home thinking about where i was and how it came to this. throughout this painful, hedonistic era in my life, i had a book to write and a restaurant to run. and more importantly, i had to keep it together as a parent   a role i place more importance to than everything else combined. writing a book in this mindset was cathartic. through the torment, the sadness, formed words and sentences that i read back on with awe and wonder. i think this book is beautiful. i think i wrote my best work, and i feel the recipes by sertaç and the photos by justin are immaculate. again, i don’t want to reveal too much but i can say that this is not your typical cookbook. it is a table book to be read and digested, aided by outstanding dishes to replicate at home and a visual feast of ocakbaşı fired plates to salivate over. this may be the only book i ever write, and throughout the process i asked myself “what do i want zeki & juno (my children) to see when they’re older and they pick it up to read? how much of myself, my upbringing, my journey do i want to highlight   the very highs and depths of lows?” the answer was “all of it”. no stone unturned. the brutal truth, warts and all. so, i went all in. throughout multiple productive discussions with michelle meade, a freelance publishing consultant working with phaidon, she encouraged me to pursue this path of unadulterated emotion and feeling into words. i know this showcases huge chunks of my life that i have kept hidden from the public, like my childhood health related traumas, but without telling my story i am doing mangal ii a disservice. and i live and breathe service. so, here we are. a book. an actual book we done did. we done did it good. two brothers from a working class family, where neither parent went to secondary school, produced together. the sons of immigrants, writing a hardcover book with the very best arts and food publisher in the world. i’m not even trying to show off when writing this   putting these facts into words right now feels surreal. until i physically hold the thing when finally available, it all still will feel like a fever dream. but it’s real. it’s here in october. and it’s my proudest work to date. through the darkest hour, and loneliest, most self reflective time in my life, blossomed prose that i am besotted with pride over. and today, today i’m 35, in my own grown up home, in my happiest, calmest, most balanced state. i am loved and i love in return. i have my job, my wonderful team, my own sense of belonging in my own restaurant, which in recent history i struggled to feel. i have a great relationship with my brother, and i am the best parent i am capable of being to my children. and we have a book. we done wrote a book   a modern classic, if i do say so myself. mangal ii: stories and recipes the prick service is always a bit nerve wracking, simmering and lurking around you as an intrusive, unstable feeling dipping in and out of your consciousness. everything can be set up immaculately, the floor cleaned, glasses polished, and a busy looking schedule, yet the fear that a major cock up can happen is always lingering. that night, there was a heightened nervousness. after months of following on the socials, the odd messages here and there, and a little anticipation, we hooked the big fish, and he made his maiden mangal ii booking now that he was back in town. tonight. a kingmaker in the building   dangling our hopes and dreams like the grapes of a roman emperor sitting upon a throne (or some other food scene from the gladiator when joaquin phoenix is in his chambers having a feast with fruit   you know what i mean). it's 8pm, half an hour later than he promised. the prick walks in. we don’t want a star, which is just as well because we’ll never get one. this feels a little bit “yeah? well, i didn’t fancy her anyway, mate.” maybe there’s a 10% truth to that but honestly… nah. no thanks. a tyre company telling me whether my restaurant is elite or not? a bunch of secret diners coming in, all from money, judging a place with a 30 year heritage and comparing it to other spots with pristine tables, grossly expensive tasting menus, and a stuffy dining space where you’re made to feel like you’re stepping into a gallery/exhibition/laboratory? yeah, fuck that. i don’t want that customer base who travel from michelin spot to michelin spot, often some rich, insufferable nerd who doesn’t care about restaurants and the people that make them, but only want to validate their own vacuous check list. these people don’t smile. they are joyless. they are boring. they are devoid of personality and excitement and charisma and relatability. they are rich, empty vessels jumping from host body (in this case, restaurants) to host body, sucking their air dry with their stoic, lifeless souls. i don’t want these people in my restaurant. but this prick, this prick works for an even more prestigious entity   for the sake of anonymity, i won’t say what that is. a man so connected that his instagram is full of selfies with every a lister chef you can think of, all of whom he captions along the lines of “…such a pleasure to meet my friend insert the biggest chef today at insert the biggest restaurant, so proud to see them go from strength to strength with their 3rd star” or some other insufferable sentiments along those lines. the expectation was that this prick would come in and enjoy his meal, and that would lead to lucrative opportunities to host events and bring in private hires and, well, make us a little bit of money to give us some breathing space, for once. a kingmaker, as i say, now, i am not angry. i used to be. i used to tweet all kinds of pent up, angry bile in my mid 20s through the mangal2 account. unexpectedly, it exposed me to a little internet fame   which i never once felt comfortable with (to this day, when approached by people when i’m out and about because they recognise me from the gram or the odd youtube videos, i always get a bit embarrassed and bashful). but yes, anger seemed to be my default temperament and nowadays, well, i just don’t give half a fuck about double the number of things i used to. but thinking about this prick, this man who came to my establishment i have spent a lifetime honing and protecting and improving and fucking up and then improving again, the lack of respect he showed throughout his meal and the arrogance he brought with him, it makes me a little mad. so, what went wrong? “what happened, ferhat”, you ask? this man came in with a companion, and after the usual greetings and niceties, sat down and practically ordered the whole menu without even asking her what she wanted. i think she was quite desensitised to his behaviour, as she smiled and nodded throughout their time here. the food lands, dish by dish. an absurd amount for two individuals but who am i to judge this judge? he’s the expert, right? it’s just what very wealthy, connected people do. order the whole thing, throwing the kitchen sink at their gut with no remorse for their bowels. you do you, king. every dish, and i mean, every dish, that he received, he took two bites and left about 80% untouched. were the dishes particularly bad? no, absolutely they were not. we brought our a game and were working towards the peak of our culinary prowess. for reference, later that year we were voted the 35th best in the uk at the national restaurant awards. he’d take a couple of bites whilst being glued to his two phones, switching from handset to handset, completely ignoring his guest, his servers as they brought food, his surroundings, his hosts. like a masterchef judge when they take a nibble. like a royal and there’s a banquet of food and their majesty has a slice of roast meat and says “i’m stuffed” as the servants scurry to take a sea of food away in silent, composed haste. a plate would arrive, we’d eagerly check his feedback, his gestures and movements from afar, and he’d barely touch it. and repeat. to what felt like eternity. his eyes still transfixed on his phone. he barely looks up, like he’s sucked into a digital vortex. after what felt like a lifetime, the meal ends, mercifully. and rather than silently pay and exit, when i’m stood over with the card reader so he can end this transaction of hell, he then unleashes a barrage of unsolicited opinions. “dish x was good”, “dish y was great”, “dish z shouldn’t be on the menu   take it off”, etc. then it’s all about our décor, how it needs to change wholescale   as if we have a pot of gold waiting to implement all these changes (not that i want to anyway, i like how we look thank you very much). he then lists off all about himself   completely goes off grid, all about his meals, his travels, his influence, his connections, his life. this goes on for far too long, where i had to break his monologue mid sentence and pretend someone, somewhere was calling me. i hated every second of our post meal interaction. i just stood there, gawping, mouth aghast at this rude, obnoxious prick. did i tell him to “fuck off?” you know how you look back at moments of conflict and think “i should have said this, or that, that would have showed them”, but the reality is you’re too frozen by the shock of what you’re witnessing in the moment to actually react so you… say nothing. you snap out, and remember why you came over to his table in the first place and take the card payment, praying this experience ends. after paying he insists on taking a photo of you and your brother outside the front of the restaurant   it’s all part of the game for him. photo with the dirik brothers? check. story, upload post, whatever. went there and tried it. got the badge. acted like an insufferable prick. end of. and you know, there are plenty like him. i won’t dox the prick. maybe this newsletter is all fabricated   let’s just believe that and avoid the guessing. but there are plenty of pricks who frequent restaurants without really understanding or respecting them. who don’t care about independent businesses. who preach sustainability and equality but travel the world from continent to continent just so they can sit through tasting menus and tell the world. and equally, there are fine diners and high fliers and kingmakers who are very, very nice. good people who genuinely pinch themselves with excitement every time they get to go eat somewhere decent. who are friendly to staff and patrons and the table next to them and to their own guest sat across them. who are kind people who want the best every time they step into a building and taste their expressions of culture and food meshed as one. who only want to say positive things about their experiences because they want to see best in people and in eateries. who don’t brag. who build genuine friendships with chefs and sommeliers. who care. who fucking care. just, not this prick. and that’s fine because i’m surrounded by the most wonderful customers who totally get it and want the very best for mangal ii, and the team, and the area, and for turkish london culture to continue to thrive and express itself. you might not eat our food, sir, but eat my words: you are a miserable, soulless man, and you are not my customer. mangal ii won’t be around forever. nothing lasts, and neither will we. i’ll be in my late 40’s one day, sell up and move to the coast to be away from everyone so i can write short stories no one will ever read. i’ll cash it all in and fuck off into the sunset. sayonara, bitches! adios! güle güle! until then… hi! you know us, how we look from the front, inside. the sign and the setting. the décor and ambience. the food and the drinks. what you don’t see is the back, the ugly rear of mangal ii. the private alley you’re not exposed to unless you are indeed a delinquent loitering around the back streets of dalston. in this piece, i want to list the wildest things i’ve witnessed around the pit of my restaurant throughout the years. the contrast between stoke newington road where the entrance to our home is located and the back of the building where we take out the rubbish, could only be explained in terms of the disparity of wealth in new delhi/rio de janeiro with the contrast of skyscrapers overlooking slums. an exaggeration, naturally, but bear with me. firstly, there is no council rubbish collection services applicable to the back. apparently, with it being private land, it is exempt from our business rates and waste disposal being put to any good use. seeing as new builds have been erected in this strange no man’s land over the last 20 years, it has led to poor unsuspecting residents living in what i feel is quite possibly the worst patch of land in london. the trade off with being able to say you live in dalston with the harsh reality of not being able to dispose your domestic waste in any civilised capacity must be very humbling. what’s more humbling, is that often these people   amongst them doctors, solicitors, will dump their rubbish outside the perimeter of our garden. heaps of black bin bags filled with food waste, tampons and nappies, piling up for days until we’re forced to have to call the local authorities to come and do something about it. look, i get it. if i were conned into moving into a 1 bed flat in a hip part of town and only retrospectively realised no one will actually dispose the crap i want nothing to do with, despite paying stupendous amounts of council tax every month, i’d want to dump my shit somewhere, anywhere, too. don’t hate the player, hate the game, and all that. so, there’s that. the crap that inhabits the space. a wasteland. a source of irritation with no solution. a shit pie. the slum of all evils. this is a weekly disturbance that i’ve strangely become immune to. it has stopped infuriating me   i’m now desensitized to it. stockholm syndrome, perhaps. held captive by a nonplussed council and private landlords. my frustrations drowned out by the stench of rubbish that overrides any sensitivities to the situation. then, there are the blowjobs. the number of times i’ve left work, knackered, 2am, dying to go home and collapse to sleep, and i walk out the back and see an old man and an old woman going at it, against the wall, trousers down, knees bent, then the inevitable shock of seeing me and a quick jump up, belt latched, sudden flee   and the sheer look of horror and disgust on my face whilst i shout “oi, what the fuck are you doing?!”. it’s happened more than 3 times, 3 times too many. shacklewell lane has long been a notorious red light district, something i’d witness from childhood as my dad would drive me home from working a saturday shift with him as a 12 year old and see the sex workers patrolling the little bit of green in the middle of the road. that activity has on occasion spilled over to the back street of mangal ii, where someone’s uncle would be paying someone’s aunt some fee for something that’s (publicly) gross. it gets worse, i once saw a woman taking a shit outside the back against our fence. literally squatting down shitting. no toilet paper, nothing. it still haunts me. in a pre covid world. a simpler time, a more innocent time, where you could squat + shit as you pleased, apparently. i’ve seen numerous, countless fights at the back. the back is surrounded by three, yes, three, kurdish illegal gambling dens. one road, 3 establishments filled with degenerate men who waste away their money until 6 in the morning every day. naturally, this often leads to conflict between fellow gamblers who take exception to someone either cheating, or not paying up, or insulting them over the dealer’s table. it boils to a “come outside, come on” type of schoolboy bravado where 2 middle aged big bellied kurdish men try and aim a swing at one another. a lot of homoerotic grappling ensues (just kiss already, guys), followed by allies trying to break up their sexual tension by dragging them against the brick wall to muzzle them from further embarrassing themselves. it’s happened a lot, and as sad as it is because these men clearly have addictions which haven’t been dealt with, it’s always quite funny and pathetic. and then there’s musa. musa was a shoeshiner. he’d been around forever, from as far back as i can remember. since early childhood up until my early 30s i remember him walking up and down stoke newington road with his metal box of polish and shoe brushes, stopping every fellow turk/kurd to ask if they want their black leather shoes polished for a fiver. i knew musa because my dad knew musa. we’d give him food most nights as he’d swing by the end of a shift asking if we had any soup going. he’d receive his favourite free dinner of bulgur rice and lentil soup with bread and a plastic spoon in a carrier bag, which he’d proceed to eat around the back. musa was relentless. every time he’d see me walking up and down the road he’d hound me. he’d run into traffic just to cross the road to confront me, begging for a fiver. more often than not, out of sheer embarrassment that a man older than my dad was asking 20 year old me for money, i’d rummage through my pocket for whatever change i had spare. initially annoyed by this targeting, i grew empathetic towards him, and even, in time, struck up a cordial friendship with musa. one thing i never did, though, was allow him to shine my shoes. that felt a step too far, too demeaning. it’s a job my own dad did as a poverty stricken 7 year old in inner anatolia. i couldn’t bear the idea of allowing anyone to shine or brush my trainers for me   even though after being handed money he’d insist on doing it, i’d always deny the opportunity. musa was homeless. musa, as far back as i could recall, was always homeless. before we built a fenced off garden around the back of mangal ii, it was a bit of a scrappy parking space. uninhabited, vacant, and gross. and there’s where musa eventually set up his home for a good long year. he settled there and we didn’t bother him and he didn’t bother us. it’s not our building, we’re not the owners, not my hill, not my battle. the landlord to our building, however, and for sake of anonymity let’s call her ‘karen’, was apoplectic. karen was furious. not the most sympathetic creature by nature (the very same karen who made us pay up all rent during covid despite us receiving no income as we couldn’t trade, and despite us being her tenants for over 25 years), this situation was not something she could tolerate. she came to me begging for assistance to get rid of him. she called him many, many bad words. to be fair, musa gave it back as good as he got. i simply refused to get involved. i preferred musa over karen. i trusted musa. i liked musa. not my hill, not my battle. so, she got the council involved. it took a year, but eventually they got musa to move   putting him in temporary accommodation in west london. when i found out, i was happy for musa   to finally have a roof over his head. musa, however, did not feel the same. now he was enraged. “all my business is in dalston   these motherfuckers have made my commute to work impossible.” i didn’t even consider this position, how seriously he took his shoeshining. i felt stupid, looking at things through a lens that musa couldn’t understand. more important than a home was his ability to work, to function, to have a purpose. musa still made the trip to dalston every day. until he finally came back for good. he set up his final shop, his final home on the bus stop outside beyond retro in stoke newington road. i saw him there at the end of the first lockdown. sleeping with piles of rubbish, his left foot exposed with no shoe on, full of gangrene and rot. his skin purple. a crowd of people were gathered around him. he refused to speak to anyone. someone was calling the ambulance, another the police. i pushed through the crowd and knelt down and spoke to him. he said “i don’t want to go to no fucking hospital”. i replied “musa, you look very sick, please just go. let them take care of you. please.” his final words to me were “ferhat, let me just die here. i want to die here”. he never got in that ambulance. 3 days later, musa died. and i guess, a small part of me and my connection to the back of the restaurant died there, too. that’s why i always look forward, never back. nothing good comes out of the back. just shit. i’ve seen love in various forms here at mangal ii. i’ve seen elderly couples come here week after week, ordering the same dishes whilst they’d lock eyes, hold hands and share warm conversations with genuine affection and companionship. i’ve seen young couples highly charged on stimulants, hands all over one another and having barely touched the food, on their second bottle of wine, and they disappear off to the toilet together wrongfully assuming nobody has noticed. we’ve had breakups, first dates, engagement and wedding parties, tears and tonnes of snogging. surprisingly, zero public proposals by the way. i remember a couple who would come in every month for a number of years. i must have been in my late teens/early twenties. the man looked like a hybrid of austin powers and guy pierce; the woman the lovechild of dobbie from peep show and another face familiar to me but now feels like a fading memory. doesn’t matter. anyway, they’d sit across the ocakbaşı grill each time   this being “their spot”, and order copious amounts of chicken wings and chops and any other dish which didn’t require cutlery to navigate their way through. what would proceed for the next two hours would be pure hell. they’d take a bite, hands covered in meat fat and oils, and then make out. bite, and make out. on loop, non stop, until the biting became more carnivorous ,and the kissing and touching manic and painfully grotesque. it was as if the food was a prop, and they were really here to consume one another. i’d watch in horror, and each time it was like a car crash   you know it’s happening, and the visual effects are negatively impactful and traumatic but you’re too stunned to do anything about it. do i intercept and pull each victim away from the collision (in this case these two freaks and their colliding of tongues and saliva and lamb juice)? do i call the emergency services? or do i simply stand in horror, frozen with fear, and pray someone, something, takes this harrowing sight away from my peripheral? luckily, i didn’t have to do anything. they eventually broke up   i know this because the woman turned up months after her final visit with guy powers with another guy, with a new haircut, requesting the same seat. thankfully, her dining companion was less horny, or by the very least, more respectful, and they didn’t finger fuck the hell out of one another. it was to be her last visit. it’s valentine’s day today. every restaurant (including ours) will be full to the brim with couples. new ones, old ones, blind dates and maybe even a couple of friends supporting one another as they forge the fight through eternal singledom and loneliness. it’s a day of love and one full of grand gestures, high net spend, too much alcohol and the high probability of disappointment. it is a stupid, stupid day and one the industry revels in because it will boost their weekly take in and drive the economy into overload for a brief moment. january, as we all know, sucks for most industries, not least hospitality. dry january seems to have really caught wind this year, spilling over to frigid february. the public appear to be on the brink of financial collapse and that has been reflected in our and our peers’ services as numbers drop, fewer waste money on alcohol with a high mark up, and food intake is reduced. and now? a celebration of love and grandiose expressions of wanting an other and being wanted and monetising that in a public setting to maintain the status quo of proving your relationship is strong and everlasting. look, we’ve all been there. i sure have. but this is such a stupid day. i can absolutely attest that the customer profile who dines at mangal ii on this day, year upon year, is not our usual one. i could not give a fuck about releasing this think piece today because the customer who walks into my establishment does not even read my newsletter, let alone care. they’re here because they saw one of our videos on youtube or saw an image of our tahini tart on instagram, or some other superficial reason and they’ve been hooked in. they’re here because they want to impress their date and check off a restaurant on their list. they’re here because they’re just like you and me and we all do the same, too. i am them. there are restaurants i care about and restaurants i don’t care about, but i visit out of morbid curiosity and pressure by my friends and industry peers to do so. for example, i have now been to the devonshire thrice, and i still think there’s something unremarkable about the whole experience but the next time i’m in soho and i want a ludicrously thiccc guinness which makes zero sense just how much ass (body) it has, how overpowering its notes of black coffee and cocoa beans are compared to the very best guinness i’ve gulped, you know i’m headed there. why? because top jaw says so on my feed every fucking day as they interview chefs (and rishi sunak   lost a lot of brownie points for that one, boys) for their favourite pub, and because my mates and i talk about it and because i am an industry gimp ready to follow the trails of what’s in and what’s out. i go to all these places and i own one of these places and that’s why i know myself and what i would rather be doing on valentine’s day (avoiding it   this has been the way my whole life, whether i am in a relationship or not), and i know a lot of my customers feel the same, so the ones who do come in tonight will mostly be of a different breed. there’ll be snappy and nervous and demanding and ask for a g&t without looking at the drinks list (we don’t have g&t) or a prosecco (we don’t serve prosecco by the glass). they’ll ask about action bronson because they say the munchies video, or ask if they can have chilli sauce with their mains and whether it comes with rice or salad (it doesn’t). some won’t turn up. and you know what, the remaining 70% will be absolutely delightful guests, but the 30% will stick out and our usual ratio of ‘wonderful to awful’ is 99:1. so valentine’s day really does stick out as a crap time of year for service. the other being office christmas party season where you get the occasional lout who has begrudgingly been invited by colleagues and does not know how to behave in restaurants but is a bit too familiar with our toilets. i don’t mean to shit on everyone’s valentine’s day. i hope you all have a lovely dinner, stimulating conversation, and crucially, get laid. i just can’t stop thinking about that man with chicken marinade dripping off his forefingers with his hands up the rear of the woman’s jeans. and then i temporarily plead for early alzheimer’s to delete this memory forever. i write this whilst in japan, spending the lengthiest time away from my two children than ever before   a whooping 2 whole weeks. i realise how short a time away that actually is, and compared to even my own father leaving my baby sister behind in istanbul as a talented chef headhunted on a special work visa and relocated to london in 1987, and how it took over a year for her and my mum to join him, i feel rather weak minded and spoilt. but here i am, genuinely having the time of my life and equally feeling twinges of sadness and guilt that i could ever indulge in anything so centred on my own needs and desires without any regard for others, a feeling and action that is quite alien to my general personality/moral make up. i glance to my right, and i see mount fuji towering over me in the far distance, like saruman’s eye, as i sit at the most hipster café in the most hipster neighbourhood in tokyo (which i obviously researched to the death and didn’t simply stumble upon like i have an innate magnetism to what is “in”). it’s really similar to east london, this part of tokyo, what with its array of vintage shops, cool cafes, sexy bars, top restaurants, young population and vibrant energy (i’m in shimokitazawa   strongly recommend, lads). like east london, but a whole lot cleaner and better organised. in fact, every day as i get a coffee to go i wind up carrying my empty paper cup for over an hour because there simply aren’t any bins. don’t need ‘em, it’s too fucking clean. the other greatest difference is that there are kids and families everywhere, reminding me of my very own 2 little effortlessly cool rascals zeki (8) & juno (4). you don’t see a lot of that in the most vogue pockets of london. the general premise is that kids are a big taboo to the great hipster movement, and settling down and making a family is very low on the list of ambitious creative’s agendas, who are my general customer base. i back it   the world is overpopulated enough, thank you very much. but it also spills onto the general way we socialise in these parts of london, whereby restaurants/cafes, they actively discourage families and kids from dining there. if you want to go eat out with your kids, you go to a caff, or to a chain restaurant, or a traditional turkish joint and they have menus geared for little ones. or specific café’s that are particularly kid friendly, with mini playhouse objects and books to occupy them as parents catch up over coffee. or to the park, or a soft play centre. everywhere else, the attitude is generally: fuck you, your problem. you won’t find a children’s menu at brat. you won’t find it at ikoyi. you won’t find it at café cecilia, and sadly, you no longer can at mangal ii. i am part of the problem. even when i occasionally bring my two loves with me to dine at my restaurant on the days they’re with me, i never truly feel very comfortable. nothing we serve is tailored for a simple palate a child embodies. we don’t have sketch books and crayons. my 4 year old daughter is supremely talkative and loud and confident (and i pray she never loses these attributes), and it always makes me conscious of the tables sat next to us who are trying to have a romantic dinner. and it’s my own restaurant, my own place where i shouldn’t give a shit what others think, but i do. i really do. this is my business, my home, my only source of income and my safety net for my children as i balance my life with theirs, and financially try and support them, whilst adjusting to life as a single co parent living on my own. so, essentially, i can’t risk losing customers and must prioritise my restaurant’s longevity and appeal over my innate desire to entice fellow parents to come and dine here with their young children, which in practice would result in a substantially reduced net spend, and the atmosphere would become that bit louder and less sophisticated for others in the dining room who would want to have an intimate, memorable dinner they’d been looking forward to for ages. i feel terrible about it, but it’s not like we turn families away at the door like a doorman at a club. we frankly don’t receive bookings with young children accompanying because your average customer researches the menu before reserving, and one glance at ours and most would ascertain this would not be very fun for anyone aged under 12. what kid wants a dish with the complex flavours of cull yaw mutton when they could have chicken nuggets? we don’t even have straws in the premises   no drink we serve requires it. there was a moment. in june 2020 as we were gearing up to change the restaurant for good and come out of lockdown swinging. we had baby changing facilities, and decided it was taking up room in the limited toilet space we had downstairs, so we got rid of it. i knew in that very moment my restaurant would never be the same again, and immediately felt sad as the folding plastic wall mounted item was removed and discarded. i knew that was it, in terms of what mangal ii used to be and who it was to become. financially, it’s the best and only move that we could have made, and i have no regrets because, as mentioned above, i have to prioritise the demographic who will enable mine and my children’s financial security. it does not stop me feeling bad, though. and that’s ok, we all give up a little piece of ourselves to reach our goals, i guess. and here i am in japan. kids freely roaming around amongst the creative elite. schools in the middle of the neighbourhood. café’s and restaurants with a good mix of families and grown ups on serious business. no one feels awkward and no one glances at the child who is crying. there is empathy and kindness here, something i often find particularly lacking in london when one is a parent and socially ventures outside with their children. hell, my ex wife/fellow co parent/friend, frequently tells me tales of how no one would give up a seat on the tube for our kids, and worse, how rudely people stare at them if they’re being their normal, expressive, outgoings selves. it makes me mad. sometimes, sometimes i feel a lot of these stuck up types forget that they too were children. that we weren’t all raised in victorian households whereby any display of personality and emotion was met with a whip, proverbial or otherwise. that “i hate kids” is not an acceptable, hot take. it just means you are an arsehole, and no friend of mine. i look at japan and i see a better reality for young families, for the development of children. i see a world i would prefer my own restaurant to exist in. where the idea of having children dining here would not deter my usual customer base from returning, thus outweighing the financial limitations it could ensue. but it is what it is. just know, please, that whatever perception others have of mangal ii, it is with real profound regret from its owner that it cannot cater to families the way it would love to be able to. i am not brave enough to make any more changes that we have already implemented. i, and my business, need stability, consistency and a sense of continuation/reliability with a steady stream of customers. and when zeki, juno and i feel peckish, i simply go to places we feel very welcome and comfortable in, and more so than anywhere else, that’s at home. yawn. mangal ii is not ‘the bear’. it’s a real business, with a real story, with two very real brothers (both of whom are alive, i must stress) who worked together to make the changes and improvements you see today. all backed by a strong team who are dedicated and committed. we don’t throw pans. we don’t stab one another. we don’t get locked in the cold room. we don’t swear at each other. we don’t have a quirky handyman who fixes everything (well, we do have jordan but he’s way more than that, he’s the restaurant manager). we don’t have a richie, or a sydney, or a tina or a weird insidious old man who we owe money to. carmy is a fictionalised character with sleep deprivations and an inability to function outside the realms of the kitchen. michael was a drug addict hedonist who sadly committed suicide after racking up serious debt, but then cryptically hid cash in the kitchen. this is not our story. sertac has a balanced, good life with a partner and a dog and a new restaurant opening up soon. ferhat (again, must stress, who is very much alive) hates cocaine. if there is hidden cash, i want dibs. the similarities with my brother going to copenhagen and coming back, and carmy doing the same, is familiar but also not too rare. copenhagen has recently been at the forefront of all gastronomic development, so it is an all too common pilgrimage. and chefs returning home after their stint there is also a common migration seeing as very few professionals live there indefinitely. i alone could name 10 who have made that loop journey and i don’t even hang out with many chefs. the number of mentions of my restaurant being similar to the ‘the bear’, both in person and online via media agencies, is now becoming a thing. it was initially amusing, then bemusing, and now, irritating. and that’s coming from a huge fan of the show. i love it. i love the backstory of each character, their growth and development and in some cases, digression. i love the way the kitchen and team are captured, the pressure cooker world of life and death between each service. i love how the show captures the lonely, emptiness one feels post dramatic shift, and the quiet solace in each person’s commute to work. i love the awkwardness of navigating between being a god in the kitchen and a civilian once you step outside and face the real world. i love the relationship dynamics at play, the manic energy of the family meal, and the heightened tension it all ensues. as a divorced father, i cried 3 times during richie’s episode in season 2, and had to take a long pause as he had a show stealing scene with olivia colman. i needed a cigarette or two and some deep breaths before i dived back in. but i am not richie. i am not michael. sertac is not carmy. and jordan is not fak. jack is not sydney. and poppy is not tina. my dad is not uncle jimmy, and neither is the annoying kurdish mafia of dalston who want handouts every year (which we refuse). my sister is not sugar and my mum is not jamie lee fucking curtis, though she is also tall and can be imposing now and then, i guess. look, ok, there are some loose similarities. but mangal ii is way, way more than that. it is, first and foremost, an immigrant’s tale from our father and mother. they came to london without any formal education and without the ability to speak any english. they lived in squats all over hackney until the council granted them a home in dalston. they stepped into a world so alien and came out the other side rock solid. surviving in a city is tough enough, and if you’re a foreigner without a grasp of the language and any connection, quadruple that. then double it. our story is an immigrant’s story. our success is the immigrant’s success. it’s not about a family torn apart by the tragic loss of life of one of the sons. it is about perseverance, a collective effort, and subsequent success. but we were successful and somewhat iconic pre pandemic as a very well respected kebab house, and we thankfully are again well revered now with all the changes sertac and i implemented together. we were never down and out, like in the show. we were never shut except when everywhere else was shut during the pandemic. the comparisons are lazy, bemusing, and at worse, offensive. initially, i could somewhat understand to a small degree why we were affiliated with the show in a general sense. but now it’s just repetitive nonsense. allow a wonderful, captivating show to be just that, a show. and let a real restaurant with real staff and real owners to exist as its own thing. not everything has a layer of coincidence and not everything has to be affiliated with another. things exist. things are similar to other things, but they are not the same. this very recent and infuriating media fetishization of the restaurant industry, of the lifestyle, and also of chefs, is not particularly helpful to real individuals who have put in a lifetime’s work to hone a craft which in essence is aimed to feed and nourish people. i’m not saying the show does this   i feel the general message is one of dedication, loss, family and overcoming one’s demons. mangal ii’s message is one of immigration, survival, adaptation, and being a part of the rich tapestry of london’s dining culture. chicago is chicago. london is london. berzatto is berzatto. dirik is dirik. the bear is the bear. mangal ii is mangal ii. and, as far as i can recall, the show has zero scenes with giant lumps of charcoal, ocakbasi cooking, wobbly tables and low intervention wines. anyway, i can’t wait for season 3. will carmy learn to love and accept being loved (and stop being a dick)? will sydney stop being condescending? will richie stay on the career growth straight and narrow? will marcus whip us up a delicious doughnut? will uncle jimmy make up his mind whether he is an italian american gangster or a polish american one? will fak shower? will pete (sugar’s husband) put on the marigolds and do a hero shift when ebraheim storms off in anger because he has flashbacks of the somalian civil war? will the walls collapse again, and is there more hidden cash? it’s entertaining, tv gold, and i can’t get enough of it. but just, please, accept it for what it is: a show. the bore of the bear (comparisons). i think… i think i’ve just about sobered up. not just from alcohol, but from the senses. from the chaos and the lights and the sheer ratio of eatery to shopfront. from all the food, the boundless, alluring, transcendental food. it’s been 5 days since we arrived back to london from istanbul. try telling that to my bloated stomach carrying a bundle of love, made from the loins of lamb, the aroma of smoked aubergine, the adoration of real baklava. long overdue, a work related pilgrimage to the greatest city in the world. we always wanted to take key, long term staff (friends, that’s actually who they are) out to turkey for the purpose of highlighting our culture to better articulate what mangal ii means to us. the financial reality and the instability of staff turnover, however, laid to rest that pipe dream for almost 4 years. every time we came close to locking it in, someone suddenly quit and we couldn’t commit to taking time away, which led to miscellaneous chefs coming and leaving, resulting in high expenditure on salaries or a general fear of leaving the restaurant unattended by 5 key pillars (myself, sertac + 3 colleagues). we just couldn’t do it. we felt bad and the priority has always been survival. today, we’re in a better place. the menu is stable, the team close and bonded and merry, the customer feedback great, and with very small but proficient financial breathing space. all these cogs turned to get the wheel in motion, and off we went   joined by jordan, jordan and jack. sadly, jeremiah, jess, janice, jebediah (springfield) and joffrey (baratheon) were all unavailable. jack as the incumbent head chef with sertac leaving, jordan m as senior sous, and jordan as restaurant manager. none had been to turkey before, either. it only made sense to bring our 3 pals and feed them to death so together they could continue the tradition of mangal ii in a voice which marries what came before, what we are today, and who we want to remain. it was a 3 day trip, staying in the heart of beyoğlu/taksim (essentially the shoreditch/soho of istanbul). we ate so many exceptional things, all seasonal and packed with flavour and thought. i could run by the bewilderment we felt at zübehir seating ocakbaşı side being served otherworldly kidneys and chops. we can bask in asmali mevcit with their life affirming smoked cold aubergine meze and buttery pan fried livers. cağ kebap at şeyzahde tastes better than revenge. menemen and sucuk with eggs at lades can cure a blindingly drunk hangover whilst erupting your heart with joy. the tomato and red onion salad at sur balık is simplicity in its purest, most glorious form. why does a tomato taste so much like a tomato in turkey, you ask yourself?! why can’t i find that here in london or elsewhere? i just want a fucking tomato to taste like a tomato, is this so much to ask? well, turkey answered. and then some. look, we ate a lot and we ate well. we ate so, so well, in fact that i came away here with one conclusion: istanbul is about to blow up. it is the next san sebastian   mark my words. sunshine? check. culture? i won’t even indulge in that response because it is beyond debate. hundreds of places each renowned for one dish only, where you go hopping from one spot to the next trying one single thing because it’s so damn good and incomparable to any other version of it you had anywhere? check. a fun drinking culture where there’s one spirit that embodies the city like cider embodies our basque counterpart? raki, mate. raki works so well with turkish meze/meyhane spots. check. beautiful landscape, beautiful people full of flair and confidence and just, you know, cool energy? check. so, why is it not as revered as the ultimate food destination like the aforementioned, like paris, or tokyo, or mexico city, or lima, or even london? because it wasn’t always this good. the impetus, the focus on seasonality, on craft and perfecting flavours has been greatly enhanced now compared to my parents’ day when they were living here in the 1980s. from what i’m informed, there were substantially fewer restaurants back then, and the overall quality was lacking. if you wanted the best food in turkey you’d go to gaziantep or adana or urfa   anywhere south east near the syrian border/silk route, basically. it seems these skilled individuals serving the finest, most considered turkish specialities have all relocated to the bosporus, bringing their skills and expertise with them. the results are delicious and unquestionably heightened levels of flavour. so, there we are, 5 hungry hospo kids out for an all immersive spectrum of food, alcohol, energy and sensory overload. we were joined on many of our ventures by my pal, and all round good egg, nick bramham of quality wines fame   who coincidentally had booked a solo trip to istanbul. the 6 of us were then joined by sertac’s colleague from his copenhagen days at 108 restaurant, sungur altınöz, who by the way is the ultimate in the know food gospel of this brilliant city, and we were overjoyed by our experiences. and yes, we got a bit merry every night post dinner because it would be rude not to. look, it was simply an amazing trip. i never want to write these newsletter with the purpose of showing off or rubbing things in people’s faces. i just feel immensely proud. my parents met in this city   without istanbul there would be no dirik family, no mangal ii (probably), and tragically, no indulgent newsletter. so, to be able to come here with my brother, and bring our friends who work with us, and to take them to many a food hotspot and wow them, it just completes me. and next year we’ll bring more with us. it will be an annual trip. we might not be a restaurant group with strong backers and a money pot that could put a deposit down on a 2 bed in north london, but with your continued patronship and our endless dedication to maintaining standards and improving, we can make this a reality for our team. and make no doubt   this trip was not in vain. we return inspired, eager to replicate and enhance all which we consumed and return that to you, the dear customer. expect nuanced simplicity packed with bulging flavours. hungry yet? istanbul? istanfull. get going. auntie. i see you, with your shopping trolley bag and your bright dyed hair. you breeze past the restaurant from across the road, not glancing in our direction whilst you storm with tunnel vision as you race it home for dinner. you’re comfortably in your 70’s but have the energy of a teenager, looking after your grandkids and great grandkids whilst the parents work their 9 5s. a constant source of reliability for your family; a rock; its very foundation. you’ve been in dalston for over 50 years   i know, because you told me. you said you bought your 3 story house back then for £6000 and paid your monthly mortgage cost £20. the numbers made my head spin. £6000 for a house worth over £1million today? fair play, queen. you told me a lot, do you remember? we used to speak every night, as you’d pop into mangal 2 and grab your takeaway. you had a special deal, one which you charmed your way into coercing, slowly, bit by bit, with your friendly demeanour and warm spirit. eventually, it became ridiculous. the final version of which, as you pushed the envelope further and further with a new free addition every now and then to your nightly order was the following:   a total outlay of £3 for half a lamb shish in the thicker pide bread (which cost us more from the bakery) with onions, green peppers and 3 slices of tomatoes   free lemon wedges in a separate container   a tea whilst you waited for it to cook   2 free packaged wet wipes;   and wait for it, this was the killer blow, one slice of baklava. if there was any mishap, any deviation, any drop in quality you’d storm in the next day and shout at the chef and i’d give you a refund. but anyway, this final deal with the added dessert drove a wedge between us. i was too polite to say “no”, and you were too opportunistic to stop testing my kindness. so, rather than deal with the problem like a grown up, i became rude and non communicative as you returned every evening to place your bets. to my deep shame. this only lasted a week, where you’d try and strike a conversation and i pretended i was busy. i started “forgetting” your tea. i wouldn’t ask if you wanted the baklava (though you would remind me to put it in; you never failed to remind me). i ended up feeling shit, so eventually, after a couple of weeks, i said “auntie, this £3 deal is killing us. we need to raise it to £4.” i’ve felt less tense saying this than breaking up with someone. who would flinch first? you silently understood the gig was up. accept my terms, pay an extra £1 every evening or lose my friendship. thankfully, in this wild game of russian roulette, you caved. £4 a night it was, then. sure, my business was losing money every time you walked in and placed an order, but i enacted some form of damage limitation. we were back on, you and i. as close as ever before now the payment situation had been resolved. i tried to make up for lost time by overcompensating   every time you brought in your grandson with you, and look, i’m a dad, i feel like i can get along with almost all kids, i pretended to like the little fella and say things like “what a wonderful boy he is!” about this 6 year old who i found infuriatingly annoying. he wasn’t a bad kid, but just didn’t sit still in our busy restaurant and always asked for free sweets (much like his nanna, i say). couldn’t stand the little runt, but i just overegged how lovely and welcome he was just to get back on auntie’s good side. why this relationship became so important to me, i can’t say. i’ve never had a grandmother as both my parents lost their respective parent at a young age, and in a way i found your daily presence in my life comforting and sort of maternal. i was happy that you took an interest in my well being. you’d ask questions about my then wife, and my son and family life, and it made me feel loved. you were close to my cousin who had worked in the restaurant many years ago, the same cousin i was close to when i was growing up, the very cousin who died aged 30 of lymphoma cancer and shocked both you and i to our very core. your past, my past, our pain entwined. we spoke about him often. it was healing. then, you stopped coming in. it lasted about 10 days and i became incredibly worried. did something happen? did i upset you? did we fuck up your order one too many times? did the worst happen and… you know? surely not? you’re so healthy and active. surely, surely not? in a way, when you eventually came in after a leave of absence, broken, frail, with the life of you exhausted out of every pore, the news you shared was far worse: your daughter had died, suddenly. the mother to the little boy you’d come in with. after telling me the tragic news, a few days later you came in with your grandson and i broke down. i hugged him, tears streaming down my face as i offered him any sweet, any can of drink he desired, on us. the boy was dealing with the shock and trauma his own way. 6 years old, not able to articulate his loss in an adult form, jumping around as much as ever, not sitting still, naughty and appearing oblivious to this most painful of losses. my son at the time was 3 years younger, my ex wife was pregnant with our second, it hit me hard as i tried to imagine how he would feel in that situation. i was staring at this poor boy with intense feelings of sadness and guilt for not warming to him from the get go. but seeing you every day, and seeing the young lad once/twice a week when he’d stay with you as his father worked and tried to retain some sort of order in his broken life, i saw, slowly, very gradually, the colour return to your eyes, the light of your spirit slowly, very deliberately emerging. you were returning back to yourself, week by week, shouting at chefs and drinking your turkish tea with 2 and a half sugars, and picking the best looking piece of baklava from the glass display. auntie was back. we were back on. me and my surrogate nan, chatting away for 10 minutes every night as the shish cooked and the hordes of produce bungled its way into your plastic carrier bag. £4 to feast like royalty, and in exchange i had my missing family jigsaw back. then we changed the whole restaurant up. the pandemic hit and the mangal 2 you knew disintegrated bit by bit. you couldn’t shout at the chefs anymore because they were all young and english, not the old bulgarian turks you felt comfortable belittling. the salad was not the usual you’d find here before, and team became frustrated as they had to custom make your order, and only yours. the outsourced baklava was gone. no more wet wipes. there were no lemons on display for you to pinch. the wrap was the only common denominator from the past, and eventually we got rid of that, too. we got rid of the shish, and by proxy, you. you and the shish were the last remnants of the past, the last reminders of days of generosity galore, of loss making, of fizzy cans sold here, of tea being brewed and takeaways being sold. we got rid of the lot. and yeah, sometimes i miss you. sometimes i remember us sitting down and talking, and sometimes crying, and sometimes laughing, and sometimes sharing an icy silence as you drove me to the point of insanity with your frugal ways. and maybe that’s what having a grandmother is like? i don’t know. i assume it’s comforting, but also annoying and a little bit exhausting, but also unconditionally loving. either way, i love you, auntie. and though you probably hate us for what we’ve done (saved our business and our futures and taken pride in our work and grown), i will always admire you from afar. and when i’m old, i want to be half the unrelenting bastard you are and scare the living shit out of grown men with big bellies. you rock, auntie. and i’m proud you adopted me for a brief moment in my life x these are our walls. 4 stoke newington road contains it. a lady called lorna owns the brick and mortar. a carousel of tenants live on the top 2 floors making it their temporary homes as they enter from the back alley, pushing through a sea of delinquents who frequent gambling dens surrounding it. the basement and ground level: this is ours (as long as we keep paying rent and signing lease extensions) and this is our home. us dirik’s have been running mangal 2 for 29 years now, ali (our father), myself (ferhat) and sertac. last month, the news dropped that sertac will stop working shifts from october onwards, whilst pursuing interests away from the family business. whilst he was quite clear with his wording and intentions, the aftermath of this announcement has made it very apparent that there is confusion regarding the situation and what it entails for the future of our restaurant. at least 50 people have approached me in this short space, seeking answers. i will clear this up, to avoid any misinformation or misunderstanding. sertac is a chef. a very talented one at that. the accolades are bountiful and fully deserving, from the observer food monthly’s young chef of the year in 2022, to time out’s hottest chef 2023. he works diligently, obsessively, and ferociously to push boundaries and create dishes of marvel and wonder. i am beyond lucky to have tried and tested every single thing he has constructed at mangal 2. it has been an absolute privilege and my own understandings of taste, flavour, seasonality, locality, smoke, sourness, umami has been expanded and stretched whereby now i can confidently describe myself as a bit of a gourmand. our restaurant began with very humble beginnings. kebabs, salads, meze, platters and byob. what he (the food) and i (the wine) pushed and created from taking over to its current state today cannot be diluted or denied. it’s simply miraculous we are where we are today. i state this without any hint of hubris or arrogance   it has been fucking tough getting here. we have fought and pushed each other to the limit every step of the way, both with the intention of bettering our establishment but with him coming from a fiercely ambitious angle a supremely talented chef will bring, and me from the angle of trying to slowly grow but protect the business without it losing its soul. it’s like the bear, he’s carm (the sexy younger brother who comes back and sets gold standards and professionalism from a high  end restaurant perspective) and i’m richie (the divorcee dad with the local insider feel, hustling and bringing spirit and keeping the place glued together   but possibly a tad more sophisticated i hope? also, at times, a bit of a prick). either way, we both have given it our all. given the restaurant is confined and limited, these 4 walls can only push so far before they crumble and break. the food can only be so different, the price can only go so high, the service napkins can only be so bright, the floors can only be so deeply scrubbed. there is a limit, and honestly, i’m happy with our lot. i always judge the restaurant as “would i want to eat here and spend £65 per head?” and as long as the answer remains “yes, gladly”, i’m content. i don’t want to expand. i don’t want another site. i don’t want us cooking anywhere else in the world. i don’t want to have to spend more than 10 days apart from my two young children for any pop ups. i’m 34, happy, rooted, and enjoying my role more than ever. the restaurant is absolutely not going anywhere, and we have an incredible team of, screw it, i’ll say it, friends, who i trust implicitly and who will put everything into the business and into themselves professionally to improve every day. and if sertac wants to open a new restaurant, it makes a lot of sense. he is 27, he is incredibly driven and disciplined, and he wants to continue growing and developing. and sadly, mangal 2 doesn’t seem like it can offer him anymore room to flourish any further than it has. the restaurant has been a springboard for his success, providing him the platform to put his cooking on the map, and just as fortunate as he is to have had that chance, mangal 2 is supremely lucky to have birthed such a prodigiously gifted son in its ranks. moving forward, rather than his skillset staying stagnant and confined to these walls, he will hopefully open the restaurant of his dreams, one that will showcase his vision and cement his position as one of the very best chefs out there. i firmly believe he will do it. he’s too fucking good at what he does to fail, and with a serious outlook to life that he embodies, he will pick the right partners to go into business with to ensure it’s all as foolproof as possible. the biggest point is also this: the restaurant will still be his, just as much as it is mine, just as much as it is our dad’s. we are a family, all chained to one root, a root 30 years deeply woven into the concrete of our address. whilst he won’t be running the restaurant with me day to day, he will still be involved with major executive decisions, he will troubleshoot and creatively input when menu change needs arise, he will promote the business and he will oversee major head chef changes   guiding them to protect his business and give it the best chance to continue succeeding. he’ll just be cooking elsewhere; the best food london has to offer and continue wowing spectators and consumers. godbless, brother.    last month’s newsletter sent shockwaves. i just want to thank each and every one of you who shared, gave feedback, and supported my views. it really took me aback, and i cannot begin to express the gratitude i feel. our google rating is still 4.1, and honestly, i couldn’t care less. but the fact dozens of your left us 5* means the world to me. there is good out there in this scary world, and you’ve all reminded me just how much. this newsletter is brought to you by mangal 2 restaurant   the one with the 4.1 google rating. no, that’s not a typo. four point one. on a scale of 1 to 5, the average “customer” would grade us a meagre 4.1. in our dizzying heyday a few years back it was a triumphant 4.3   a gloriously underwhelming score at least 0.1 below our then local kebab house competitors. i’d be so wrapped up in our google rating back then that i’d personally respond to every 1* review as if it were an attack. i genuinely had sleepless nights angered and stressing over what ‘moonypig02’ wrote online because the food wait times were not up to her expectancy. each bad rating was like a crass “rip grandad x” tattoo on my neck, for the world to judge and laugh at. a blemish on my record. a relegation. a breakup. an embarrassing public fart. a small dagger in my heart. i’d beg and borrow friends’ and familiar customers’ goodwill to lure them into leaving us a 5* every time we received a 1* to redress a balance and right some wrongs, to restore the cosmic ying yang of the googleverse and keep our average intact. one thing i never resorted to do was pay for positive reviews   principally, and perhaps more out of pride, i just couldn’t venture down that indignant path, though begging my then good for nothing friends who’d wine and dine for free to do the bare minimum and leave a positive online stamp was degrading enough. so, there we were, 4.3 layers into the depths of online hell when we restored the restaurant during the pandemic and relaunched with the changes which gradually evolved into the mangal 2 you see today. anticipating a steady climb back up the table to a respectable 4.5, 4.6 if i was feeling a bit frisky, with all these exciting changes and natural wines and exposure and good press and hospo industry approval and whatnot, what transpired has been a plunge down the canyon, freefalling to our current crashlanding of 4.1. now, a little introspection is key here. why, oh why, when we were labelled the 35th best restaurant in the uk as recently as last year, were reviews online slipping away under us. it seems the more acclaim and hype we received, the stronger the backlash online and ferocity of disgruntlement customers were willing to express to counter that. our customer profile for the most part changed, too. gone were many of the locals and regulars. in were food tourists, creatives, big celeb names, itk food people and, essentially, ‘the cool crowd’. now, if i know anything, it's that anyone who falls under the category above does not bother writing google reviews. if they like/love something, they’ll either a) story/post about it online and crucially b) tell their mates. it’s why we’re busy every night and full to the brim, and why when i ask customers how their experience went, i receive overwhelmingly positive feedback. truth be told, i don’t have a single friend or even acquaintance who reviews places on google, or god forbid, trip advisor (the latter would see them cancelled, in my eyes). for me, and i am certainly biased, i often find those most likely to review a place are reactionary types, who are prone to a sense of injustice. a common theme to our negative reviews are the following reasons which we cannot help or change too greatly: “it’s not turkish enough”   buddy, well perhaps that’s because we (sertac and i) are not turkish enough. we were born and raised in london. we do not advertise being a traditional turkish restaurant. we are turkish leaning, dirik family home cooking influenced. there’s a big difference. “the prices are too expensive”   have you done a grocery shop lately? do you know how much local, organic, seasonal produce costs? do you understand the concept of charging things at a profit to ensure sustainability and at the bare minimum, survival? or are you plain stupid? also, back to that word again, ‘google’. did you not google the menu before arriving? what did you expect? “the portions were too small”   this one, i emphasise with. it’s not your fault. every turkish and turkish influenced restaurant is ploughing on the portions and sending freebies left, right and centre. the culture is one of abundance or overfilling. so, unfairly i would add, certain customers arrive with the prejudice that there will be mountains of food served here. that won’t happen. we could put more things on a plate for the sake of it, but it would take away the sincerity of what we do and what we believe in. also, if we were defined as a modern european restaurant, we wouldn’t be beaten with this portion sized stick all the time. it’s all about perceptions and historic turkish generosity. no one is to blame, but it’s time to shift this tedious narrative. “service was poor”   ok, this is on us. it happens from time to time and i am just as culpable of being the offending party as any of my front of house team. we all have off days when we’re distracted by life outside of work, or feeling a bit sick, or plainly just not down to clown and pretend we’re ok to put up with serving impatient people. i’m sorry. it’s not professional and it should never be ok. but we’re humans, at the end of the day. we move. “food arrived late”   this just happens. things don’t always move like clockwork. trains are delayed. flights are cancelled. your cull yaw loin took 10 minutes later to cook because there was a backlog of orders and there’s only so much you can cook on an ocakbasi grill in one go. relax, sip some wine, and try and have a conversation with the person sat across you in the meanwhile. “we couldn’t get a table”   book online. you are not entitled to one just because you stumbled upon our restaurant whilst visiting dalston. i can take it all, all the difficulties, if there’s a level playing field and restaurants are also allowed to review customers. imagine, the next time you google someone’s name, a rating instantly pops up. it’s very black mirror, but if you can dish it out, you better be able to take it. you review us, we review your conduct as a guest. if you’re a nice, normal, respectful person, surely there isn’t a thing to worry about here… ok, so no, i jest. reviewing people is my idea of hell. but there should be a platform so restaurants can vet customers through booking platforms, so if someone books through, say resy, we can see their customer profile and see how they treated restaurant staff and what their vibe was. it can be private and kept in house for restaurants who have access to these booking platforms. it would also deter people from behaving like dicks in restaurants. anyway, long story short: if you’ve dined here, enjoyed it, and are too cool to leave us a nice review, maybe just once break out of that mindset and say something nice about us online. or don’t. who fucking cares? i probably wouldn’t, if i were you. i’d just tell all my mates and come back again and again, and champion you through my private instagram account of close friends. 4.3. 4.1. maybe 3.9 this time next year. whatever. you bite that sourdough pide with kaymak, have a sip of incredible wine, in a relaxed atmosphere with friendly service and a good energy about the place, and you tell me we’re average. and i’ll tell you you’re deluded. love: kebabs hate: racism all of the above statements are true. they’re as true today as they were when i coined the phrase 7 years ago or whenever the hell it was, on a whim as a @mangal2 tweet. i cannot remember the exact moment where i was or what i was doing as the “inspiration” came to me, but i can place a high bet it was one of the usual scenarios: 1) i was on the bus 2) i was on the tube 3) i wasn’t able to sleep and lost deep in my thoughts at 4am and it hit me, and when the idea came to me, i chuckled, saved in on my iphone notes and pressed send at 10am 4) the most common occurrence: sat on the toilet. i wanted to tweet something punchy and quick and funny and relevant. football’s “love football, hate racism” was in vogue and i thought “ah, so basic but true. now, what do i love more than football itself and can relay back in a @mangal2 voice because i seek validation online from strangers 24/7 in a desperate attempt to be accepted as funny and irreverent? kebabs, that’s what.” a so, as the story goes, the tweet was sent. it got a little traction. there were anti police/racism protests in brixton a few years back and someone sprayed these eternal words on a wall and my devoted followers highlighted it to me. i was a bit spooked. woah, ok, my silly words have found a physical home, i thought. a sign of things to come, but pretty exciting at the time as i pushed boundaries with what a restaurant should and shouldn’t tweet. anyway, i shut the twitter down as my restaurant started doing well in real life, because i had no need to vent or talk my own establishment down anymore. i wasn’t stuck running a kebab house (stuck is a stupid word   but that’s how i truly felt for years as i juggled running a business on my own whilst having a young family in my mid to late 20’s and early 30s, a situation that’s rare in modern london life and quite isolating, to be honest). i finally had a restaurant, with my brother, which aligned with our vision moving forward, and the twitter account felt a bit unnecessary to maintain as i felt it would discredit all the wonderful, brave changes we were implementing. and also, i mean, hindsight is 20/20 and all that, but fuck twitter. owned by elon musk. spreader of awful, false information which affects elections and social perceptions, bot infested and unregulated. no, thanks! i shut the twitter down and i removed the profile, so all historical tweets were gone. i wanted a clean break. like an art piece that i destroyed, a novel i disowned, a limb removed, i moved on. i moved on but i didn’t want my words to be stolen, and as we were looking into making some mangal 2 merch to get us through difficult lockdown times by producing t shirts and tote bags, i pitched putting those words into t shirt form and just test how it would do. sertac, coming from a graphic design past, was more than happy to create the look and typography, and we put the piece into motion. we found a t shirt producing company. an instagram post ensued and the reaction blew us away. we were unprepared for the level of interest it would spike and soon, before we knew it, before working with a proper distributor (we now, mercifully, work with everpress), we were inundated with orders from around the world   singapore, europe, australia, so much to north america, you name it   everywhere), which we’d send via a post office service (by we, i mean our old hero front of house henry catt would be sent to run that errand   god bless him and his patience). it was an absolute comedy operation where one day we’d be dealing with someone from new zealand asking where their t shirt is, and the next a weird third party t shirt printer we didn’t know in devon would be sending us lowkey racist tone emails because he didn’t want to work with us   the irony, the conflict he must have felt with each t shirt he screen printed! rip, king! anyway, sertac soon brought everpress to the table through his deep pocket of contacts and our work was way more streamlined and manageable. the first t shirt was white with black letters; we added a black t shirt with white letters soon after and the public went bananas. the first year of selling these t shirts really got us out of a financial blackhole. years of tweets finally paid some monetary benefit and i felt some vindication for all my lost adolescence venting away online whilst a lot of my contemporaries who had similar accounts (i’m looking at you, the dolphin pub) were made social media partners at tech start ups and raking it in, whilst i was managing a restaurant with endless debt and problematic staff and quite a few ungrateful customers who’d flip out when their free humus didn’t arrive on time. and then the worst happened. given the t shirts’ popularity and exposure, a lot of, let’s call them fuckheads, started copying our message and printing it through their own channels. we’d see an increasing number of sites making our merch without permission, charging less, and not crediting us nor everpress. were we annoyed? yes, we were. we still are. it’s theft and sadly that’s the way the world works. our sales have plummeted. dropped by 9/10s some months. for every bit of excitement when we see peggy gou wearing our t shirt, or it’s on great british meme’s (or whatever the hell it’s called   i cannot emphasise how off twitter i am   and sadly, no credit to us) twitter handle again with over 5k likes, we feel that extra bit of annoyance all that traction is being fed elsewhere, swallowed up by fraudulent wankers stealing our ideas and our creativity and endeavours. festival season is in full swing and for every love: kebabs, hate: racism t shirt we see being shared on the gram and going viral, we’re cheated out of our earning that extra bit more, and bottom feeders are only benefitting. and the biggest shame is, it prevents us contributing more to anti racism charities like sari   stand against racism & inequality, which we always do by giving 15% of all profits to. so please, do the right thing and order through everpress. love: mangal 2, hate: injustice. “so, you want to open a restaurant, do you, ya punk? well, i’ve got some stories for you, kid. *spits out tobacco he was chewing*where do you get off, jerk, thinking you could do something like that? who’s funding ya? where’s the cheese, the moolah, the smackeroons, the paper coming from, asshole? who’s got your back? is it jimmy snakefingers? did you rob a bank, rascal? mommy and daddy rich, are they? whose shit did you have to shovel and for how long until you came up with that kind of money, jackoff?!*downs whatever is remaining of his bourbon, slams the glass back down and signals for 2 more to the barlady in one swift hand movement* <<exit scene>> ok, so that was a poorly depicted moment in american cinema no one ever needs to see (or read). but the message remains the same: provided you are in the most privileged of positions and find yourself with a war chest of money/investment/or in my case, passed onto you with a world of debt and issues, why would you want to run a restaurant? what’s in it for you? what i sadly find is that those who can, often open a restaurant, right? let’s start there. celebrities reveal they own 1/3 of an awful fusion joint in downtown hollywood when conducting their strange vanity fair interviews. footballers invest in tacky, glitzy spots where the food is an afterthought, and the concept is a mystery. wealthy financiers plunge money into smallish venture capitalists who buy up the high street with chain restaurants, hoping a larger venture capitalist swallows up their portfolio and they make an easy profit. it’s all a bit depressing and rarely for the virtue of providing great food, commitment to the cause (to the end), have a bit of a character and relatable backstory, and be an integral part of a community. it’s a business. a reason to show off. a place to host vips. staff revolving in and out the door through agencies, and chefs switching up the menu frequently because nothing lands. a restaurant for a restaurant’s sake. these exist. and more often than not, they suck. outside of this alien world are dedicated, hard working restaurant owners who face a multitude of challenges and for whom this is their livelihood. no exit plans and no quick fixes. just swimming against the tide of diarrhoea whilst the council drop a piano on your head. the government handing you a measly £3000 when they shut down the country for a third time because they were so reluctant to do so the first time when the rest of the world showed some sense   even though your weekly losses amount to double that amount. £3000 is a very significant amount of money for an individual; for a restaurant in london, it’s a joke. the fun does not end there. it’s not all monetary. it’s knowing you can’t switch off on your days off because something always goes wrong. it can be the plumbing acting up and the sinks are blocked after customers stuffed lord knows what down your toilets; a supplier not providing a vital ingredient which ruins your menu for the evening; your restaurant shutters getting stuck and chefs not being able to access the building on a saturday when it’s your busiest day of the week, causing you to open 2 hours later than planned; the extraction fan’s fuse blowing up so you cannot grill all night;these issues alone are things my brother, our operations manager, and i have had to contend with in the last 6 months. staff you spend months training, investing in, befriending and supporting abruptly leave, with very short notice. this one is fine, actually. everyone leaves. everyone. it’s just you in the end, and that’s something you must accept from day one. a bit morbid but also quite synonymous with life and death and those who enter and leave our lives and the final cull at the very end being a very solitary act. that’s fine. go. thank you for the memories and laughs and moments, anyway (sincerely). <<new scene, somewhere in dalston. a restaurant, turkish ish. let’s call in “mangal x”. wait, that’s too obvious. how about “m2”. yes, that’s better>> “still here, are ya, ya punk? what are you, some kinda goddamn masochist? you’re barely breaking even, your google reviews are an abomination, and i see your eyes, you sad sack of crap. you’re on the edge of a breakdown, ain’t ya? shit, i bet if i got off my stool rightabout now and flicked your snot infested nose with my middle finger, that’d just about do it, am i right? that’d be the final straw to send you over. ha! you’d even be relieved, wouldn’t ya? it would be a merciful act by the high and mighty, one last straw for your hairy ass camel’s back. well, i tells ya what, kid. i’m not gonna do that. ya hear me? i’m not. you know why? you wanna know? coz you try, kid. you try. heck, the whole team, they all try. some try harder than you, when you’re down feelin’ sorry for own your sad ass and they’re pickin’ up the slack. and those customers? the one’s you’re feedin’ every night, who keep returnin’, saying “it’s the best meal they’ve had this year”. what you’re doin’, what your brother is cookin’, and your crew are servin’, folks seem to like it. they keep comin’ back, don’t they? you see ‘em comin’ back, don’t ya, kid? now tell me, why in the goddamn hell would they be comin’ back? this ain’t church! they don’t need to be there, spending their last crumb on gruel that turns to shit in 6 hours. they’re there because it’s good. you hear that? it’s good. you’re doing good, ya punk. that’s as good as it gets. take it. deal with the other problems like all business owners. everyone has problems. shit, you think those assholes in their shiny offices and their pearly gates and their savings accounts and perfect skin, they don’t get problems? course they do. we all do. here’s you *thumb and forefinger barely merge to show the smallest gap* and here’s the world *arms stretched out wide*. look at me, yappin’ away. yappin’ away whilst you got all of them bottles of natural wines in that fridge of yours. pour me another glass of, whaddya call it, orange wine?! ha! orange. now that’s some fancy moonshine if i ever saw some. and throw in a tahini tart with those zig  zag lightning bolt cream thing on top you punks do. go on. because it’s good. and it’s all worth it, when it’s good.” <<exit scene (for the last time, i promise)>> he’s right, you know? that crazy old bastard who i just imagined up, having that conversation with me somewhere in america, followed by a late night lock in at mangal 2. he’s right. i am an “asshole”. i do feel sorry for myself when the weight of running a restaurant feels overbearing and crushing. and i do have something wonderful that people resonate with that is worth fighting for, improving, tweaking, loving, obsessing, prioritising. i am lucky. i need to be more grateful for that. and i will try to be. because once it’s gone, it’s gone. and then i really would have something to feel sorry about. by ferhat dirik an ode to lamb as i woke up in the west of ireland, visiting the edge of europe where the atlantic shows no let up in wind, cold crisp air and beauty, making my way down the open glass corridors of my partner’s parent’s home and finding a comfy chair, i peered outside and saw lamb frolicking boundlessly across green pastures. spring born, tenderly young, too young to visit an abattoir in these parts of the world. i quipped “if my dad was here, he’d be lighting up a barbie and showing no remorse”, which brought some laughs but also held true. the man would absolutely delight in grilling these babies and proudly reference their tender textures (of course they’re tender: how many protein shake downing babies do you know with tough muscles and heavy limbs?) and soft meats. and he would have been correct, because i have tasted first hand on many an occasion a young, heartbreakingly young lamb grilled, or slow cooked over the oven, or raw in the form of a kurdish tartare with pepper paste, onions and a world of chilli. and that was all before i hit the age of 7. never did we, my siblings and i, question the nature of the animal we’d be consuming as we’d be fed meat for breakfast, lunch and dinner on most days and days especially when our dad was home. he’d often say “if there isn’t meat in the meal, i don’t count it a worthy dinner” and it would be true   or at least, his truth. this wild idea became indoctrinated in my own impressionable brain for many years after, way into my mid 20s, where i’d find myself consuming insane amounts of lamb on a daily basis. my justification (at the time)? i was running a very good kebab restaurant and it was all too delicious not to enjoy. i recognised my privileges and i indulged in them, day after day, night after night (i still secretly yearn for my midnight mangal 2 feasts with lamb sweetbreads, lamb ribs, ezme salad, pide soaked in lamb fat and a dark, deep glass of montepulciano d’abruzzo). i devoured animal after animal, stockpiling enough bodies on my hit count to populate a microstate. then, something emerged in me. something i repressed. something i had shut down as i tweeted silly anti vegan slogans to the masses and waged war on nando’s for being chicken led (and a bit crap). something i knew to be true, but which i constantly drowned out at a vague attempt to look cool and appear nonchalant towards life and nature; a little emo me acting like i didn’t give a shit. my truth bolstered through the ranks of denial: i love animals. i love nature. i love sheep. i love lamb. lamb are so fucking cute. look at them, all frail and curly. look at the stupid, idiotic smile they all carry. stupid lamb, why are you smiling? why am i smiling? lamb, stop it. stop. ok, ok wait, let me just… ok now i’m stroking your stupid smiling head and you’re letting out a “baaaaaaaaah”. who says “baaaaaah?” are you a little baby scrooge reincarnated and haven’t yet learnt “humbug”? why did i ever eat so many of you? what did you ever do to me to deserve that? feeling conflicted, i visited farms. i drove country roads. i saw them everywhere and i felt joy. was i seeking redemption, an atonement for my sins? i gradually faced my demons head on and stared at my restaurant’s giant butcher’s display counter filled to the brim with tender, red fleshed delights and i felt guilt. meat for the masses as we’d do over 150 covers a saturday, at what cost for the environment, for nature, for earthkind? yet. yet still i was, and still i am a gluttonous, carnivorous beast. my hunger and strong urge for satiation overrides my ethical, empathetic sensibilities. i wrote the first half of this newsletter (essentially all of the above) and walked out of the restaurant that evening and devoured a lamb adana köfte from a nearby spot. did i weep as i stuffed minced animal joy in pillowy soft pide bread in my salivating gullet? absolutely not. no amount of raw chopped sumac onions inside my baton shaped wrap of joy could bring water to my greedy eyes. i vacuumed up the whole thing like a ghostbuster suctioning in a ghoul. but there is a middle ground. i consciously consume way less lamb now, avoiding it like a dark addiction and relapsing only when i can bear it no longer. i cannot recall the l last time i scrumptiously forayed into the dark arts of a veal cutlet. no suckling pig for this tribesman. poisson is poison. the levels of consumption of animals has lessened, though it’s still to a degree which could still trigger a militant vegan into committing heinous acts on me. but i am now at least at peace. we source the best looked after sheep and cows in the land. our lamb has been replaced by ex dairy producing mutton, who have lived a long, harmonious life via the considerate, loving care of matt chatfield in cornwall   whose techniques of regenerative farming makes the possibility of sustainable livestock appear hopeful in this burning, decaying world of dystopia. i visited his farm and saw happy, free sheep with an abundance of character only matched by the vast land they were free to roam. these creatures live a long life and are only culled at an elderly age, bringing bags of wisdom and experience (or let’s be more truthful here: flavour) with each bite. they even have names. the sheep have names. they exist and they have names. their cooked fats are masterful expressions of healthy living, melting at the tongue and soothing the palate like a drug. equally, the mr txuleta beef we sell are from the same way of life, ex dairy british cows adopting the same industry leading basque farming techniques to ensure a longer leading, happy life for dairy producing cows before they’re culled at an old age. essentially, old, happy, big animals who are converted to tasty delights when they’re near the end of their cycle. big. old. happy. ethical. meat. delicious. essentially, mangal 2’s identity crisis was my identity crisis. fewer animals on the menu. older, geographically closer, organically reared and sustainably existed meats from happy farms. and here’s a thought: do you believe in reincarnation? do we die, and our souls remerge in another living entity, and the cycle and continuation of life resumes? i’d like to hope so. and if true, do you know what i’d like to come back as? kobe beef. a cow in japan massaged and fed beer all day, every day, whilst classical music is blared out to me, as if i’m some sort of medieval dandy living in a castle in a fortress in france. a life of oblivious pleasures in a land of wisdom, order, respect, culture and serenity. and then you eat me.

by guest blogger michelle griffith my 5.5 year old boy was recently diagnosed with adhd and odd. i think by now, most people are familiar with adhd. odd or oppositional defiant disorder might be a term you’re not so familiar with. a quick google search defines odd as: an ongoing pattern of behavior that is characterized by anger, irritability, as well as argumentative and defiant behavior towards those in authoritative positions. i’m guessing that sounds like every 3, 4 and maybe 5 year old out there to you, right? well, not so much. if you go on to read further, this behavior can be something that kids only exhibit at home or at school, maybe not both. also, it lasts for a long time, and happens quite frequently. more so than your typical child, even toddlers, as crazy as they are. and this is where i’d like share my story of being a mother to a child with odd. before i tell this from my point of view, or use the analogies i’ve been using, please let it be known that i am in no way shape or form trying to demean or diminish or make light of any type of abusive situation. i, myself, have never been in an abusive romantic relationship, nor was i abused as a child. that being said, when i describe to friends or family or coworkers what it’s like living in my home with my 5 year old, those are the words i find myself using quite frequently. “i feel like i’m in an abusive relationship with him”. let me be clear on what i mean. and before i divulge what is my truth, ugly as it may be, i encourage you to please not judge unless you’ve walked in these shoes. these are very hard truths. truths that are hard to even admit to oneself. most days of the week at this point, i dread getting out of bed to start our day. i dread coming home at night. i dread the most simple of tasks with him. i find it difficult to go into much with a positive attitude, because, quite honestly, i’ve been emotionally beat down. i dread social encounters, outings, etc. i dread staying home with him. i am filled with anxiety at the thought of being by myself with him. i can’t remember the last time i had a “fun” time with him. my life consists of walking on proverbial eggshells, never knowing what will set him off. you see, with odd, outbursts, screaming, fighting, and the like can occur at the drop of a hat. one minute, they’re hugging you, the next you’re dodging toys, and listening to blood curdling screams because you asked them to throw something away. and this goes on all day. twenty four hours a day, seven days a week. weekends are the worst. it’s such an ugly cycle. you go into the weekend with sometimes medium to high expectations. you hear your coworkers and friends talk about how they love to spend weekends with their kids. you think to yourself, “gosh, i’m such a horrible mom, i dread the weekends because i have to be home with my child, what’s wrong with me”? and then things are bad, and you cry. and you feel so angry, and sad, and resentful. and hurt. you’re so hurt, that the next time your child wants to be with you, hug you, love you, it’s hard. because you’re a human being with feelings, and it’s hard to let go. so then, you feel guilty. you feel guilty that you resent this child that you do love so much, but that you don’t feel like “liking.” and then you find yourself pulling away. because you’re scared of those feelings. so, somewhere, in the back of your psyche, subconsciously, you pull away. shut down. try not to feel because it’s too much. you feel alone. isolated. people don’t understand. you’re even at the point that when someone says, “hope you guys have a great time/weekend/day,” you feel angry. they’ve said nothing wrong, but in the back of your mind, you’re thinking, “how can you say that when you know what i’m going through”? but, they don’t really know, do they? the kick of all of this, at least for me, is that my child is an angel at school. and that’s where i started using the analogy of an abusive relationship. from the outside, things look ok. here’s this beautiful, thoughtful, highly intelligent little boy, who follows all the rules at school. literally never gets in trouble. is friends with everyone in class, and is generous and caring. at home, that same child can be verbally mean, physically abusive, manipulative, and so defiant that asking anything of them is almost pointless. so, people think you’re overreacting. that you’re just overly sensitive to normal childhood behavior. and you start to think that maybe you are crazy. not good enough. inadequate. that it’s your fault. and this goes on for years. until finally, finally someone (a doctor) gives you the diagnosis. you’ve known all along that something wasn’t quite right. but these things take a while you see, for the reasons i stated above. there’s a jekyll and hyde situation going on. and nobody sees. and you can convince yourself that nobody cares and that you’re not going to make it. and if i’m being honest, i’m feeling like that most days. this story doesn’t have a happy ending yet. it’s not even close to being finished. right now, we’re in the trenches. fighting every day, living our truth, being honest, getting help, and doing what we need to do to survive. for us, that’s medicine, and therapy. exercise. using social media to connect to others going through this. and help. lots of help. as of right now i haven’t been able to find a support group locally for this, so maybe i’ll start my own? right now, i’m treading water, and sometimes find it overwhelming to do anything more, so we’ll see. i hope this reaches some people that are maybe struggling like i am. i’ve said this before, and i’ll say it again. hearing the words, “i know what you’re going through” have such enormous power. as humans, we strive for a sense of community. hoping i can find mine through outlets like this. can you relate? do you have words of encouragement for michelle? if so, please leave a comment below! (adsbygoogle = window.adsbygoogle || []).push({}); finally. i am not crazy, and i’m not alone. only wish the therapist eould diagnose my son and consequently give him the help he needs. you just diagnosed my 10, soon to be 11 year old. if there is a support group, count me in. i would love to join a support group too. my son is 8 and he’s horrible at home. i am worried he will get taken away from us if we reach out to a psychiatrist because he is violent towards my husband and myself. if anyone has any advice i’d love to hear it. another mother here living this life of constant stress and exhaustion with their beautiful but oh so hard 6 year old. i needed to read this and these comments tonight so thank you everyone for sharing your experiences. does anyone still read these comments? if so, i would like to reach out for support too. we got custody of my stepson at 18months. everything was ok at first but i think the instability of his bio mom has caused so many issues. he sees me now as his mommy but he still gets three video calls a week with bio mom which i feel is so confusing to him. he came to live with us due to his mom having issues with taking care of him as well as drug issues. i had him completely potty trained and on a schedule with eating and a school like program. bio mom lost rights to any visits and hasnt seen him in two years and things have progressively got worse.he is now 5. he purposely wets himself and tells us vocally he just didn’t feel like going to the bathroom and he will make himself vomit at dinner to not have to eat. he sometimes just refuses to listen all together and can be defiant. he sometimes gets mad with our youngest and gets physical with him. the youngest is 1. we recently got the referral for testing and was told he is definitely adhd and shows signs of odd, but the therapist doesnt want to diagnose him so young with odd. the therapist said he is very smart almost too smart for his own good. his preschool teacher disagrees with adhd and says she does have issues with him not being center of attention and random outbursts, but she says her son has adhd and she feels he doesnt have that. he is very smart and already very manipulative to whatever audience he has. he lies so perfectly and i dont know what i can do to help him anymore. i do not want to abandon him as i am his mommy figure, but every day is hard. my husband agrees something is not ok, but has so much guilt he overlooks it. i am his primary caregiver, and husband is military. i need guidance. i have 3 bio kids and i have never dealt with this before. i know i am starting to lose my mind as i never have any peace. it is always something and the therapist advised we may need to take away video calls of bio mom as this may be causing more issues since he has no interest in her, but nothing is changing. i talk to my husband, but since he is military he expects me just to figure it out. any advice is welcome hi. i joined groups on facebook. this has been the most helpful. also seeking an asd diagnosis. i know exactly what your talking about. im raising my granddaughter and she is so over bearing here at home. there are days i just don’t know if im going to make it through the day and then i do just to start another day hoping for the best. she is 13 and its her way or no way, this child is 10 feet tall here at home and 2 feet tall out in the world. she sweet and respectful when not home but the minute she walks through the front door she’s a whole different child. im at a loss and have no idea what to do, all i do know is that if she stays here in my care she’s just going to get worse, i believe she needs a stronger adult that has patience of a saint to raise her and to teach her everything she thinks she already knows. so please if you find any methods that work for you could you please pass it on to me? so where is the support group? i think its obvious we should start one… and meet up like in person? talk and deal… hi michelle, about 99.9% of what you have said about your child describes my child. i completely understand. my daughter, who is now 14 years old was just diagnosed with odd yesterday, 10/12/2023. the funny thing is that i knew when she was a toddler that something was not quite right, she wasn’t like the other kids. i come from a family of six and all of my siblings have kids and i would often compare her to her nieces and nephews, which yes, i know this is not something you should do, but i did and now that i look back on it, i am glad that i did because it gave me the strength to keep pushing for answers, that and our lord jesus christ, ok, so all the credit is given to the lord for pushing on to find answers. lol! anyways, all the signs were there at the tender age of 3, 4 years old, but everyone kept telling me, “teri, that is how all kids at that age act”, and i would think to myself, “y’all don’t understand, this is completely different.” so finally, yesterday, i began seeing my child’s therapist because my daughter has been going to therapy for years and years and nothing has ever changed and i was/still am mentally, emotionally and physically drained by this ongoing battle with her. anyways, yesterday her therapist and my daughter and myself all had a counseling session together and the wifi went out in our house but i was on my phone coming home from work, so i could still speak to the therapist because my daughter had been kicked off of our wifi, so i got a little one on one time with her and that is when she told me she has odd. my first thought was i knew it! you see my daughter also has adhd and that is quite the rabbit hole to go down when looking for answers on google. one day in my quest to find out more about her adhd diagnosis, i ran across the signs of odd and i thought oh my goodness this is what my daughter has, but i never asked any of her therapist about it because as much as i wanted answers, i wasn’t ready for the truth. back to present day, when the therapist told me her diagnosis, i was happy for getting it, but then sad as well. the therapist told me that if this therapy that we are doing with her now, because like i said i have now started doing therapy with my daughter and my daughter does therapy on her own as well, she said that if this doesn’t work, then our next option is a group home where she can get therapy there, but i said a group home, as in she wouldn’t live in my home? and she said yes, that is correct. she said sometimes for 3 to 6 months at a time to get the help they need. of course, the tears came and then i quickly had to dry them because my daughter was able to log back on. however, today, today i feel hopeful because i know that the lord is by my side fighting this battle with me and for me and my family because i will never give up on her, as much pain as she has caused and i know that this is not easy on her either, she is my one and only and i love her way too much to ever turn her away. she needs me and i need her. we have always had a very difficult relationship, but i will keep pushing because that’s what parents do for their children, they love them unconditionally and never give up on them. i hope that is alright that i offer up prayers for you and your family through this very difficult season. thank you for sharing your story and know that you are not alone in this. may the lord bless you and yours. best, teri my daughter was diagnosed with odd in october at age 14 also. she is my cousin that we adopted, fostered 3 times first. she was a meth baby and the doctor said that the odd is from that. she doesn’t show on the test adhd but it’s not ruled out as they generally go hand in hand. although she was in and out of our house since birth to age 6, i knew from age 3 something was not right. she is only awful at home and that has made me feel crazy or like a horrible mom. i know for a fact that god gave her to us because he spoke to me at 3am only days after her birth to contact bio mom. jesus has been in this all the way and as a christian it’s like we aren’t supposed to feel all these awful feelings and we are supposed to lean on jesus etc… but i have days when i just want to go home to him because i’m so emotionally beaten down i can’t take one more kick to the heart. thanks for sharing, it’s helpful knowing i’m not alone. michelle, thanks!!! you perfectly described my situation. i have a 6 y/o daughter and we started the medication 3 long months ago, the worst heartbreaking moments of anger display… psychiatrist has changed the prescription several times already or increases the doses. and i can’t swallow yet that’s little person that age should be taken 3 pills per day. besides that, here in tampa to deal with medicaid to get services such as psychological therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy, and even to get done the neuropsychological test has been so frustrating. no he accepts the medicaid… and they rejected us or put us on eternal waiting list after not with being asked to process and fax extensive paperwork, referrals, iep……. etc. i’d love to join the “ group” and i’m wondering: 1) what kind of jobs do you have guys? i found so difficult to sustain a normal 8 hours job, bc all my life, schedules, etc orbit around the odd   adhd dynamics at home. i’m separated and have no family here to help or support. so i’m in charge of every single task and actually trying to get a job that allows me to sort out all the unexpected “bumps” in the morning for example… 2) what type of schools, therapy, resources have you tried and positively worked? 3) have you tried any supplement? 4) any food to avoid? 5) if there is an online support group, i would love join. hello, i just stumbled across this site. i’m literally looking up resources for single mothers of asperger children. you just described my situations and feelings to a tea! i have to admit i feel less guilty knowing i’m not alone. i have felt like the worst mother to actually feel resentment and hate and anger towards my son. my son is now 24 years old. he lives with me and what was once child tantrums, rages, outburst, now are destructive property damage, doors busted down, holes in walls. it is the worst kind of torment. i know he has mental illness so i don’t want to call cops, i keep trying to get him compliant with medication and hope he can learn to manage this irrational impulsive outbursts. my son has been given every diagnosis out there, bipolar , asperger, add, cognitive defiant disorder, ocd, depression , anxiety. not all at once, just over the years it’s something new, asperger seems to fit in my opinion. either way, it’s all the dam same and so so hard on anyone having to deal with this. i don’t wish it on anyone. i feel trapped, i feel like i’m also in a abusive relationship with my son, walking on eggshells trying not to set him off, or it’s world war 3. the problem is , i can’t abandon him. he has come a long way in regards to getting his drivers license, seeing doctors on meds, he knows how to cook for himself and his own laundry, he can’t hold job due to the outbursts:( my next hope and step is to apply for social security or disability and at least pay for his own living. my life is on roller coaster and my house looks like a war zone, i just stopped giving it.. i just empathize with you all and glad i’m not alone. thank you for everyone sharing their stories. prayers for strength ???? my 18 yo son was diagnosed odd at 16. i wish we’d known sooner. we thought we were crazy or awful parents. please, please read “the sociopath next door” and it’s sequel “outsmarting the sociopath next door” by martha stout. it has helped me not feel so terribly guilty and explains his behavior. he is ambitious, even the golden child to the outside world, but abusive to the family, impulsive in decisions, and deeply deceptive. we do not feel safe having him in our home, due to choices he has made and danger he has put us in. how do i still show love while distancing myself, husband, and other kids simply for our own protection? to anyone whose child has these issues and has had encounters with police or child protective services, you can get a grama report of each incident. this will make explaining the next encounter to the authorities easier. we have been accused of countless forms of abuse and been checked out multiple times by cps. the police have come to our house due to his behavior, etc. having proof of each situation will be helpful. also, do not hesitate to allow choices to have natural consequences. we were advised by the last cps social worker to press charges if he got violent again. he was still a minor at the time. the reason is that state resources cannot be implemented unless there is a police report. once that happens, your child is eligible for more services, assessments, etc. it is also flagged in police databases so they know what they’re dealing with if you have to call them. good luck, and prayers to everyone. parenting this child is the hardest thing my husband and i have ever had to do. michelle, i can’t begin to thank you for this clarity you have given me. although my 10 year old daughter hasn’t been diagnosed because i haven’t sought professional help for her life impacting problems, i can relate to everything that you and others have said, in a big way, and i have been beside myself over her dreadful behavior and abusive relationship with me for longer than i care to admit. like you and everyone else here, her behavior negatively impacts me on a daily basis and impacts our whole family. it has sucked a lot of joy out of me; i have been consumed by her anger, hostility, defiance, and frequent outbursts, not knowing what was wrong with her or how to manage the situation. she is good one moment, and terrible the next. she is perfect at school, a monster at home. i live in the triad just like many others here and would love to get together for a support group if there is one. in the meantime, i have just joined a fb support group thanks to your suggestion. i have been living in this misery for years and you have helped me to feel less alone. thank you so much for your bravery in writing this and helping other people. hey. guys. omg can i relate to all of these situations!!!my son is the only child i have that exhibits this same behavior! he has always walked to the beat of a different drum since he was 2 yrs old!! however i did not know he had a clinical problem. !!i just thought he was rebellious!! this did not stop into teen age yes and adult hood !! he has lost employment over arguing with the boss numerous times and is constantly negative to authority figures but in public it’s like a complete turn around!! people think he’s outgoing and wonderful!!!omg. like one comment said a dr jekyll and mr hyde!! he is especially controlling with me and very negative about all my decisions and. btw. he is now 50 yrs old!! i said something back to him recently and he blew up and left…haven’t heard from him yet!! michelle, have you started an online support group that is in real time? if so, i want in. you explained my life with my son right now. thank you for putting the emotions and feelings into words. this hits hone for me 100% literally line for line this is our reality. i’m in tears reading this because i feel the exact same way. people do not understand unless they live it. i hope you continue to reach out and share your story because just hearing it helps others feel less crazy and alone. i have 3 children which makes it especially hard when it feels for them like my adhd odd child seems to get away with things they never would.he also has sensory issues and refuses to eat to the point of being physically ill. he is wild and frequently injures himself and others. it is a long road and it’s barely at the beginning . wishing you the best of luck . please feel free to email me. nolegirlmitch@gmail.com. hi michelle, i am curious if i could email you as well for support group meeting. that would be great for me. i have a 12 yr old boy and a 10 yr old boy who both have adhd/odd. it is hard and i cried reading your post. because i feel for you and know the struggles you’re going through. how nothing seems to help. my boys were diagnosed at the age of 5 with this, and it is has been a struggle and a half all these years to current, please if you or anyone have any advice i would greatly appreciate it! thanks kindly. absolutely if there is an online support group, i would love join. you just perfectly described my life. been there.. we have a 3 year old.. grandchild.. raising him since 10 days old. his dad was killed in a car accident and his mom was in the system because of drug and alcohol addictions.. very serious! the little guy was 5 lbs and went through withdrawal.. then emotional and overstimulation issues.. tantrums, screaming, odd etc.. night terrors etc we are people of prayer and doing natural things as much as possible. what we found.. other than fighting and pulling your hair out lol because this has to do with brain chemicals and hormone levels that are not balanced (keeping cortisol down) what gave us some reprieve and after much homework and research 1. diet.. mostly keto.. some carbs no dyes.. no sugars. .. this makes it worse 2. protein at every meal.. and omegas (we give organic gummy omegas).. good brain food 3. camomile tea 3x a day.. 4. creekside childrens.. anxiety comfort supplement with needed vitamins and l theanine (keeps stress cortisol levels down) note: these kids have a very difficult time transitioning from one activity to another .. their levels sky rocket immediately and they can’t seem to control themselves. give it a couple weeks.. be patient behavior: 1. you stay calm.. very important .. start now 2. do not fight with the child 3. redirect during transitions.. get their focus on something that helps eliminate the stress that pulls them out of control how? 1.they need lots of approval, hugs and love.. it’s a healer.. for every reprimand.. come back with 5 approvals. 2. they have to have routined and scheduled activities.. play with them… projects…read.. hands on stuff.. cars, outdoors .. our guy loves tools and outdoors, digging, mowing with dad.. let them help .. they have to do do do.. time to go inside.. oops transition ( chase him in like you’re going to get him lol rrr) come up with transitional ideas and some rewards. daycare has been part of a very positive thing for our guy.. they control themselves in school because they are on a scheduled routine and always doing things. tv can be a good break for you.. but keep it educational and fun.. not lots of crazy stimuli and fast action.. and not hours of it. 1/2 hr here and there or nice little movie.. they love when you sit next to them and watch.. and you can nap a little then. they must get to bed the same time every night or it affects them greatly.. read.. drink.. kisses and bed discipline: our guy has a high chair.. locks him in with a tray…2 3 min on our phone timer. your guy …you may have to do time out in a chair and stay there with the timer (to keep him there) until timer goes off.. or gated area in his room.. temper: walk away.. he may kick, scream etc,.. kick the door etc.. you go in a room.. ignore.. stay there and tell him calmly you will come out when he calms down .. 10 13 min.. be patient.. you will not fight him.. our guy learned. throwing things.. spilling, dumping the garbage.. we stand there.. and make him wipe it .. clean it up.. “you don’t play until you clean this up.. we will go outside if you clean this up.. we are going to stay right here until you clean this up”… don’t give up this may seem impossible at first because a cycle has developed, but consistency is key. rewards can be a blessing for these kids. they are not your enemy.. this imbalance in their body is their struggle. you must win!!and they need you to help them win in life.. diet and supplementing what their brain needs makes a huge difference! hi i want to comment because my son fit so many of all of the comments but he is now 23 and a wonderful man! it can happen. hold on. keep doing what you know is right even when you know the result will be chaos and extreme fights. here is a brief history. my son fit all your descriptions…basically a jekyll and hyde situation. our home has busted windows and doors and any ceramic pot is gone. anger raged whenever authority was necessary. we did figure out that spanking didn’t work…so we changed to use choices with consequences set out in advance that he could choose. we also used running and push ups for discipline as well as outside work. and if it wasn’t done, meals would be things like raw broccoli. i’m not saying any of that really worked well…just some things we tried along the way. a couple things that i think were important were that i had twice a day when my touch was gentle and my words kind…i woke him up by rubbing his back and praying over him, and i put him to bed in the same way. even when he was awful, murderous, violent…those two times a day i made sure were peaceful and loving. for my mental and spiritual health, i got up early for time alone and i also was able to have a midday prayer walk that helped me to get my mind off the circumstances and give my burdens to god. the adhd meds definitely helped stem the violence…prior to the meds, we had several situations where my other kids were definitely at risk and so the meds were a necessity. as you all commented, i knew if i held the line with boundaries, discipline, authority that there was going to follow explosions. but here’s the good news. my son got married last year and at the rehearsal dinner, his good friends circled me afterwards and thanked me for my impact on my son…that he had such an impact on them for good, that he was such a good non judgmental friend because of where he came from, and even my son said he would not be who he was today if it weren’t for the fact that we didn’t back down from doing what was right. he wrote a beautiful letter to my husband and me thanking us for the boundaries and discipline. he grew up! and is not a selfish, self centered man…but rather one who understands others and their issues. he still needs meds and he knows his issues and his wife and he are figuring things out. i am so thankful! so hold on and keep on doing what you know is right…read books on it, get counselors to help, share with others, find times to be loving and kind, pray, pray, pray and be strong and it will get better one day. blessings to you all!! thank you. ❤️ rebeccamorgan75006@gmail.com please feel free to email me. nolegirlmitch@gmail.com the k you so very much!! i needed to hear this ! my little man is 9 and i’m so over it now ! i just learned what it’s called he has adhd and odd may e more to add to the list of diagnosis ! its so exhausting to deal with him and have 3 other children in the home to try and give my attention too! he takes it all ! i pray beg yell pray beg more and it seems like he feeds more on it laughing ! hi. i cried reading your post. i know what you’re going through. i’m exhausted and drained and feel like i have nothing left to give. i am struggling with my health and weight because i have no energy or time for myself. i have a high pressure job, support our family of 4, and i’ve had challenges with our 6 year old from the start, from colic, to hospitals, nutritional challenges, and now i believe it is odd since the “terrible two’s” only got worse. i’ve struggled for a few years, but am at breaking point so started looking online. every day is a screaming, fighting, kicking, door slamming match. every single instruction gets a “no” answer by default. the smallest thing will set her off. and at school, she’s perfect. but our home is a warzone. and she’s only 6. i’ve tried various methods. i worry. how will she handle life? i’m drained, and it’s wreaking havoc on my health. it affects the whole family. no one understands what it’s like unless they’re there. i get you! you are not alone. i’m glad i’m not. thank you for your post. thank you. i hear you. find a circle. find help. no matter what. ❤️ does she ever scream like you are trying to kill her when you come toward her during a fit? i have epilepsy and there has been many times she has thrown me into one. i know your pain. she is 10 and her actions are only getting worse, even with the help we are getting. yes i can relate. my 8 year old is so rude and disrespectful and refuses to do what we ask of him 90% of the time. he’s on adhd meds and it doesn’t help all the time. he’s the same an angel at school and around others but a jerk at home. traditional discipline does not work for these kids, rewards don’t either. they don’t care and they will tell you that. my son enjoys seeing me get angry and stressed out and react and he pushes me until i do. it’s scary because you see them going to jail in the future for this behavior but how do you change it when it’s just their brain and nothing works to improve it?? it is a relief i never expected to have to read this blog and the comments. i know everyone here understands each other. i’ve never found another person who understands what having a child with odd is like to live with. nothing us simple and that includes all of our stories. my son has aspergers and odd, tho the odd has never been officially diagnosed. we have been estranged for 6 years. my narcissistic husband got custody of both our sons when after years of trying, i gave up and took an overdose of pain pills. i didn’t want to die. i just wanted to take a nap and things would be better when i woke up. i now realize how absurd that is. but my asd/odd son was in the house when that happened. he had been threatening to cut my head off in my sleep for at least a year at the point. i was going through menopause, i’m 99% sure my husband was having another affair, and my mom was dying of cancer. i gave up, but i didn’t want to die. my nearest family was a 3 day drive away. my husband’s family was 3 hours away. no one believed me. my husband who become furious when i tried to talk to him about it. he literally told me and my boys that all problems are the mom’s fault. no one believed anything i told them about my husband or my son. in the midst of this was my poor little boy, asd/odd son’s younger brother, whose personality was calm and peace loving. he used to beg me to go sit and talk with him at bedtime. i had gotten so beaten down and depressed, i couldn’t make myself do it. i would just go to bed, it was hard to get out of bed actually. everything i did to try to help my son(s)was undermined by my ex. in fact, he refused to accept our sons diagnosis until after the third time. i felt do horribly alone. it was a nightmare. a complete nightmare. i have such guilt about it still. and if i’m honest, the guilt that is the most difficult to stomach is that my younger son was also a victim and then his father manipulated things such that i was not allowed to see my sins after my overdose and inpatient hospital stay. among many other accusations and labels, i was “diagnosed” with bpd. that was 8 years ago. my doctors who know me now font think i had or have bpd. living like that is a full time nightmare. i’m so sad for my sons. take care of your other children, parents. please don’t neglect those victims. i almost “dround” to death. i worry about both of my sons, but i could have done more for my younger son. it breaks my heart that he got overlooked. i hope someone will create an online support group for us. maybe i will. tha k you for sharing. stay strong mama. i’m in therapy regularly. spot on 🙁 i’m so worried. not only is is tough now, you stress like crazy about what their future will be like. sitting here crying while i read these comments along with the post. i(26) yr old mom of a 6 year old boy who is adhd and odd, every day is a struggle for me. he was diagnosed adhd at 4 1/2 he’s always had violent streaks and outbursts. just like everyone in the comments he is good around who he wants to be good around. sadly i am always the one who gets the crap end of the stick. he was diagnosed odd at 5 yrs old. i had no idea what odd was until i started researching about it. i have done all the research i can to try and find a way to help him manage his big emotions. i have been consistent and we have a strict routine when he is with me. (his father gets him every weekend when he wants to…) i’m considering it becoming every other weekend because he has no structure at his dads house. having a child with odd and the other parent think “he’s fine just whoop his butt” or “the dr don’t know what they are talking about he acts just fine with me” it is even more defeating to have to try and explain what your child does or what’s going on with your child at your house to the other parent and then basically being made to look like i’m crazy and no help parenting (his father emotionally abused me for 4 years, i left when my little one was almost 2) i have been threatened by my 6 yr old. slapped, he has bowed up at me. when i vent to family members it always gets put back on me not being strict enough or it’s his fathers house. or it’s im not doing enough as a mother. when quite frankly i am and have always done as much as i posssibly can for my child! it is so emotionally and mentally draining. i have no motivation to ever want to take him places or go places with him that would be fun to anyone else because every single time i do i get reminded that if it isn’t his way it is the highway. knock down drag out fit gets thrown his blood curtailing screams when he hears the word no again after he has asked more than once and my answer doesn’t change. i’m so exhausted. i left an abusive relationship because i wanted more for my child. i’m supposed to start college for the first time in 3 weeks full time while working full time and appointments twice or three times a month with the psychiatrist and therapist and honestly. i don’t know if it was the right choice to start college. mentally i am so so so drained. it’s sad reading the comments and seeing so many other mothers with similar experiences. it’s sad that we get over looked and called crazy. it’s sad there’s not a better way to get the odd under control because this diagnoses should have more options. or a better scope on the severity and ways to manage it. my son told me today everyone hates him and he wants to die. all because he was upset about me telling him we would have to wait until we got home for me to help him find a word on a word search. i had to carry him out of the dr office and he gripped me hard enough like he was literally trying to hurt me. and when we get home he runs up the stairs then back down i had to chase him catch him and pick him up to get him to get inside….he almost ran out into the road what do i do i haven’t done anything but cry this evening. i have no support system and my 6 yr old continues to walk on me every single day. this is hard i am not okay ???? i’m sorry momma. i get it i do. i hope it gets better for all of us! i am almost certain i have ptsd from raising my daughter (19) who has odd. however, after decades of going through various counselors (of whom she succeeded in manipulating all of them), i don’t have the stomach to go see anyone else for a diagnosis for myself and after 19 years of never finding a reasonable solution or cure to the odd, i have little faith anyone can help with what i know is my own ptsd at this point. odd girls are different than odd boys. there is less violence but waaaay more manipulation. looking back, i have always been in a lose lose situation. i’ve followed all of the advice: only give 100% enforceable consequences; offer praise wherever possible (which is extremely rarely with an odd child); ignore most of it; take time for self care; rely on a family support system… and more. ultimately, none of this ever fixes the issue   it’s all just one bandaid after another. my family is supportive. my husband is supportive. everyone understands just how difficult my daughter is and just how much i (and everyone else) have tried. i can relate to every story here. my husband (not her father) is astounded that i am not clinically insane after raising her. sometimes i wonder if i am though. to this day, she still has absolutely zero regard for the feelings of others, unless it’s out in a public place and she can somehow come off as holier than thou or somehow make me look badly in the act. everything has and does seem to be a game of manipulation to her: if she is bored, she will find ways to get a reaction out of me regardless of the destruction it causes to herself or others; if she takes initiative in her life (which is extremely rare), it is always the most tenuous of situations: she hates praise, so will immediately self sabotage if praised, but she also hates criticism, so will self sabotage there too, and finally she hates neutrality so will self sabotage if she receives neither praise nor criticism but a neutral reaction. and when she self sabotages, guess who is left to pick up the pieces and who she turned to for help: me. and the cycle repeats. i’ve tried hard love (i kicked her out when she turned her bedroom into a literal dumpster and refused to cleanup as well as refused to stop leaving rotting food all over her room). she spent her first year of adulthood working a minimum wage job to which she was always late, but they didn’t fire her because they were desperate for staff. her job was part time and at a sports arena so it ended when the season ended. she cried when she realized all of her friends are going to college or doing things with their lives and she isn’t. but… she still hasn’t done anything with her own life. she is now back in my house. my husband and i moved across country to the most beautiful area imaginable and all she does is a whole lot of nothing. when she isn’t doing nothing, she is complaining… not about her own life, but about things around her. she is like a life sucking void in the house. just her mere presence of sitting around doing nothing is draining. and as you all know, forcing her to do anything results in world war 3. husband and i are poised to make her either get a job or enroll full time in community college, and it’s like laying out battle plans. we have to think of every possible trick she could pull to self sabotage and every possible way she could make our lives miserable as retaliation. if we kick her out again, she will just go live at her grandparents house again, where she will slowly drive them insane again. unfortunately my mother has told me she will never turn her granddaughter away. my daughter knows this and uses it to her advantage. i’ve tried explaining to my daughter how much she affects those who love the most in such a traumatic and negative manner, but she couldn’t care less. i truly believe that if we all died tomorrow and she got her inheritance, she would not only complain about it but she would use that time period to be as awful and self destructive a person as she can be. she would exhaust anyone and everyone around her all of their sympathy until they simply give up and run away, and then she would lay around doing nothing in self pity and self loathing. throughout her childhood, i can count one moment of actual joy that i had with her. just one, and it was a two hour time span immediately before one of her largest drama productions ever (we went tubing for two hours and then she got her first period and spent the next two hours sobbing in the shower. no amount of sympathy helped. i finally told her to just get out of the shower and stop being ridiculous. to this day, she claims that was one of the most traumatic times of her life   yes, you read that correctly: my daughter was devastatingly traumatized by getting her first period, even though i and my mother were right by her side to help her through it as long as we could stand to be sympathetic through the extremely loud and excessive wailing   2 hours). so i guess the two hours of tubing prior to that was my only joyous time with her because i’m able to separate those hours in that same day. otherwise, every other single day of her life has been an enormous struggle. she has ruined every single outing, trip, vacation, and even day of my life with her never ending manipulation, spite, and abuse towards me. i get it when you all declare that your small child is abusing you. i really do get it. they may not be physically abusing you, but mental and emotional torture is never ending… and if you try to explain it to anyone, you’re more than likely viewed as the problem. people just think you’re not doing something right as a parent: i’ve seen so much literature on odd children and am now horrified to see “professionals” claim that odd is a result of upside down hierarchy and trauma for the child. i have always been the parent. i’ve never had an upside down hierarchy in my house and i’m sure none of you have either. we parent and we make rules and we enforce consequences and we are consistent and we are unwavering and yet it still blows up in our faces. because odd. ugh. and trauma? i’m sorry but how does a toddler or baby have enough trauma in their life that makes them odd forever?? i’m not buying it. i was the most loving and attentive new mother. in fact, i had always loved children and was a teacher for well beyond a decade (almost two). it is second nature for me to care for, nurture, love, and educate children. unfortunately now, because of my daughter, i can’t even be around children without getting triggered into a panic attack. i thought the nightmare would be over when she grew up. i thought all she every really wanted was nobody telling her what to do   to be independent. but i was wrong. now i’m seeing more than ever that her goal wasn’t simply to not comply. her goal was to rob me of my own innate happiness and joy. she will never stop. oh wow that’s a lot!! i know adults this way. i think it’s like living a hell on earth when you have to deal with such nasty human beings kids or adults. it shouldn’t be that way. unfortunately that’s mental illness for ya, sometimes our brains are wired completely wrong and people treat others badly as a result. i’m sorry you have to deal with this and i hope it gets better. because your daughter is an adult now i’m having a hard time understanding why you feel a need to continue to have her in your home. it’s clear that the only purpose you serve in her life is as a scapegoat and because you give her a free place to live. if your parents choose to enable her that’s their problem. let her go. you are only enabling bad behavior and exposing yourself to horrific abuse which will never end, and you know this. i get it. the love of a child is strong beyond reason. but she will never learn to love you if you don’t first demand respect because you love yourself more. hi. i’ve been doing a lot of reading, and i’m wondering if she doesn’t have antisocial disorder (newer term for sociopath   people associate it with psycho’s but many of them pass through life just seen as nasty or difficult. but there are 3 disorders that i’ve been researching due to the challenges in our home, similar behaviours but the core reason is different. i’m reading a book now called “confessions of a sociopath” as i’ve taken interest due to all my turmoil. it’s written by a woman who is aware she is a sociopath and actually talks about it openly. i have a bit of an aging tough mother i’m dealing with too, also with mental health issues so have been researching a lot. check out these 3: narcississtic personality disorder, odd and antisocial disorder (i can’t rememebr if that’s the exact name). the lack of empathy and manipulation for her benefit, etc, etc, may be one of the others. just thought i’d mention it as there’s a lot of cross over between the disorders but yet they’re quite different. read “the sociopath next door” and the sequel, “outsmarting the sociopath next door” by martha stout. i think they will give you help and a game plan. i feel you on everything you talked about in this post and many of the comments. my 11 year old daughter has adhd and odd. the way you describe the feeling of being in an abusive relationship is sadly perfect. every single day is completely emotionally draining and my husband and i wonder how we will do this forever. we never know when she is going to want to go to school and when she decides she isn’t going it’s like trying to convince a mountain to move. she never wants to get ready to go anywhere so trying to do anything as a family is a complete nightmare. our poor 8 year old son is constantly over shadowed by our daughters defiant behavior. who knew being a parent would be this much fun…. ???? it is good to know we are not alone. however not too many comments gave me much hope that things will improve. we have tried medication and different types of therapy to no avail. so good luck to y’all, my thoughts are with you. wow..reading this was as if i was the author.every little thing you described is my life currently with my 11 year old.i am yet to find a dr,councillor,ot that believes me.my daughter is amazing at school according to her teacher but at home. i am scared to parent,talk,or get up daily. i have always felt guilty about the fact that i know something is not quite right but am yet to get anyone to help see what i see. i had to get my husband to record her violent meltdown tonight and he got so upset doing it he passed the phone to me and out mw in a situation that she was backing me literally into a corner. im so lost. reading this was exactly everything i feel.daily. hi, you have described life with my 8 year old son. especially how he is such an amazing kid at school   friendly, kind, empathetic, and helpful but at home it is a different story. we have yet to receive a diagnosis but my oldest son (14) has adhd   the psychologist we have been seeing suspects adhd and my husband and i definitely believe he has odd as well. medication has helped but it doesn’t help with everything   not the anger, the screaming, the “i’m such a dumb kid, the world hates me, i want to run away, i hate you, leave me alone, etc etc” throwing things, hitting himself, and just going into this downward negative, self loathing spiral. like others have mentioned here, it doesn’t have to be a big thing to upset him. today it was because he couldn’t blow up a balloon and so he was a total failure and the day went downhill from there. therapy hasn’t worked yet   he refuses to use the strategies he has worked with the psychologist to create. i suspect my husband also has adhd and so parenting in our house is inconsistent and he hasn’t learned to “pick his battles yet” and that makes an already stressful situation more stressful. i feel very alone most days too and like a bad mom   like a failed mom. but tomorrow is always a new day and i am learning to try and treasure the good and happy moments we have and be patient, loving and forgiving in the bad moments but it takes all of your strength and energy and it is so unfair, hard and difficult. there is no quick fix or magic cure for this   not even time i suspect. i worry about when he is older   how will we manage   how will he manage. i came across your posts today and it was helpful to know other moms and families are living this too and it helps to feel a little less alone. thanks to all of you for sharing your experiences. i have 5 children 2 have adhd odd i would not wish this on any parent,i have read more books on adhd odd than anything,there is know solution,it’s just put up with it until they move out,it’s hard. i am here with tears because i have just read my own thoughts that i feel so afraid to tell people. they will look at you like a bad person until they have loved it. i use the word abusive relationship all the time. my son is 5 and he is getting help but i’m not and i feel that i’m a bomb know. i have zero patience now. i wasn’t always like this. i am working on ways for myself. i do feel like i have no one to talk to or just someone who would understand. if you are like me and you need someone like i need some one please reach out. aiden_mat@yahoo.com so sorry you’re going through this. would highly recommend therapy if possible. we’re still there. still struggling. hugs. where can i find a group or someone to talk to….please send me to sites numbers etc….i am a soon to b step parent..who is with this 7 year old 90% time…father works( younger than i)…n i feel used or brushed off…yet has an younger daughter who adores me( mother hasn’t been consistent til recent weekend visits)…solo much family…time n more revolves around him….i left good job…to help n wasn’t expecting this…am i wrong to feel trapped n i love them all…n worry…i’m spit on…i’m hit.. i’m screamed at…used n abused…depressed n when dad home … he is smoothed talk n manipulated…for us to argue n more….( the last year had full custody)…now he is out of school( which he didn’t do week w others but topped out academically)….now mom trying to swoop in…yet dcfs knows this routine…i’m lost n tired n w/o dr ord for 3 year old…. i felt everything i read from the author to the comments to the core. i have been in an abusive relationship before and now my relationship with my child feels exactly the same. not to mention that my mother who lives next door to me my husband and my odd 8 year old child blames me for all her behavior in front of her and that makes everything 10 times worse. i’m so depressed and anxious everyday. i have taken her to the doctor and she manipulates them into thinking she is only depressed and that it’s everyone else’s fault. i don’t know how to fix this or to make it even the slightest bit better. is there any medications out there that anyone has seen make any improvement? she’s on prozac right now and it’s not working. she still hits me and cusses me out daily. she still refuses to help me do anything i ask so i just stopped asking. i’m desperate for help bc i can’t take this much longer. i feel so alone bc no one outside the house sees her act this way. they all think she’s a perfect little angel. and in reality she used to be but she’s no where near that anymore. are you still open to emailing? i really need that connection of someone who understands read “the sociopath next door” and the sequel, “outsmarting the sociopath next door” by martha stout. my son is 12. he was diagnosed at age 5. i love my son. i am completely devoted to him. i have had to change my view of what my life would be. dealing with the an odd child was something my husband could not handle. he left. my son refuses to cut his hair. he refuses to brush his hair. he refuses to shower. getting him to go to school each day is a struggle. getting him to brush his teeth or put on deodorant is a challenge. fortunately, as he got older, he has better control of his physical attacks. i can no longer work. i never know which days he will agree to go to school. i cannot trust him unsupervised. he has taken money from my wallet. he has taken personal property from the house and sold it. he has shoplifted. he has damaged property belonging to others. he is fascinated with fire. i have asked for assistance from every school he has attended. i have taken him to therapists, psychologists, a psychiatrist and local authorities. i hold him accountable for his actions although he denies everything. he has been suspended from school. i try to be firm, loving, patient and always remain calm. i try to never escalate the situation with anger. i try to teach by example. medication has been offered, but i do not want to get him started on any chemical dependency. additionally, he has refused medications for other illnesses in the past. i hold out the hope that he may surprise me. i hold out the hope that by continuing to be loving, patient, calm and strong that one day he will become a productive citizen. at the same time, i am a realist and i have to prepare myself for a future for him that may not be bright. people are eager to give me advice. people do not understand this disorder. people are quick to blame parents for a child who misbehaves. that adds to the challenge of raising a child with odd. i have two boys with severe adhd and odd aged 6 and 8. today i wanted to run away. i am very grateful to find this post. this is a very isolating experience and not at all what i imagined motherhood to be like. it’s painful when your child hurts you or when they are callous towards you. i had so much fight in me   for life and everything, and now i’m just too tired to fight. everyday blows my mind, just shock that this is my life. you described my oldest.. dmdd, odd, adhd, asd, spd, generalized anxiety, depression, and ocd.. he won’t poop, threatens people at home and school, self harms, and screams and fights for all basic care.. i’m so lost on what to do. wow. i thought i was a horrible parent, i have had every one of these thoughts about my 11 year old daughter and more. i dredd interactions with her. she says she loves chaos and loves making me mad, and it hurts. she hasn’t been diagnosed with odd yet but my wife’s therapist secondhand diagnosed her without even meeting her. right now she is on prozac and zoloft. has anyone found any combination that works? thank you. quick question… has anyone’s child ever talked about suicide? is that a common thing with this? she was just released from being committed for telling s counselor she wanted to hurt herself. oh gosh. i’m not sure that’s common to odd. my 9 year old son talks about suicide constantly. he has adhd and odd, suspected bi polar, depression and anxiety.   didn’t stay in his chair for lesson so lost recess? “i want to kill myself”   my friend stole the ball during the soccer game from me? “i want to kill myself”  no one can play tonight? “i’m so bored i’m going to kill myself” (and he doesn’t use a joking voice either) i adopted him at birth through foster care in my state. they have had a file on him since birth so you think they would understand the situation since he was heavily drug exposed in utero. nope! the amount of calls, home visits, investigations i have had due to his allegations this year alone make me so angry i want to throw up. most recently he accused me of throwing a metal water bottle at his head and trying to hit him with my car at the school drop off. he alerted school authorities about this who then had a dcfs worker interview my son about the alleged abuse. now i have an investigation going into my home and if i’m a fit mother for him and my other 2 children. i’m not worried because the school already had video footage showing i was parked during school drop off but i am so angry that he would make claims that could land his siblings in the foster care system as well. he has no regard for the family. oh and the reason he alleged abuse and was mad at me? i caught him sneaking a whole family size bag of chips into the school after i told him no. i feel like we are all being held hostage. if we don’t do want he wants he will make allegations with huge consequences. after this latest situation i am finding it really hard to like him or even be in the same room with him. i spoke with my ex husband at length recently about swapping custody because i need a mental health break. i don’t feel like i am up to par to parent this child anymore (nor do i want to). today is the last day of school before summer break and i am almost dreading it. he goes to daycare during the summer but they had issues with him a number of times last summer where i would have to come and get him. i have done so many services for him over the years. we are currently doing or have done:  medications (was a mess to figure out but we have him on a good combo now)  counseling  speech therapy  play therapy  skills therapy  educational iep  in patient behavioral program  out patient behavioral program  school behavioral therapy  in patient psychiatric ward honestly i ended up here because i am at the end of my rope. my son was diagnosed at 4 and so this is not a new road for me. my personal mental health has taken a real beating the last 3 years. i have done so much counseling, tried so many medications, met with multiple doctors, tried taking me time, etc, but i am still as depressed as ever. parenting a child with odd has left me feeling at times that i will never be happy again, that i am an awful mother for having these thoughts, extremely depressed, with a feeling that i am messing up my child permanently and he acts this way because of me (my ex still tells me our child behaviors are my fault). parenting this child has left me feeling trapped, that if i can just hold on til he is 18 then maybe i will be ok. and everyone judges you so hard which makes you feel even worse about yourself and like you are crazy. even my own mother still tells me at times he is “just a normal boy and i am high strung”. this is my life! my 6 yo story to a t (adopted at birth, nas). except she says she’s going to kill everybody instead of going to kill herself. my husband (i adopted her before we were married),does not get it. she doesn’t have an official odd dx but it describes her. i feel defeated, alone and abused. i’m constantly late for work, my house is always in a mess from her meltdowns. i can’t find a better paying job because i’d be giving up the flexibility i have when i need it due to the unforeseen events daily. i love my girl more than life, but somedays i wonder if i’m the best thing for her. i feel like such a failure as a parent because like today, i lost it! when she threw a wrench and it flew by my head and almost hit the dog, i lost it. thank you for sharing. it’s so hard. xxoo my son used suicide as a manipulation tool. it is very common, according to his psychiatrist. read “the sociopath next door” and the sequel, “outsmarting the sociopath next door” by martha stout. they helped me understand and not feel crazy. try to find a counselor who is experienced in behavior disorders. regular counseling doesn’t work. i cried when i read this. it’s been 3 years and it just get worst and worst each day. no law, therapy, medication or counseling works. we literally must lock up our own child otherwise he runs away, longest at 48 hrs this last time. this mental condition just seems to get meaner and uglier the longer i tried to love him and help, the more he pushed me away. how is this parenting? we are at the point we’ve been told he must be locked up for his safety, he will either eventually run away or get himself killed. and this isn’t a life….i feel myself slipping into feeling nothing because how can this go on when there is no end? no hope to get better. just watching as he follows the exact footsteps of bio dad (who didn’t even raise him) towards homelessness, dependency on substances and not a single try from him. i feel so hopeless. no one told me this could be what it’s like. it sounds to me as if your son suffers from more than odd. fascination with fire? that speaks more to sociopathy. please look into sociopathy… the red flag was raised when you mentioned fascination wtih fire. i happened to read that yesterday. just thought i’d mention. i mentiond it in another reply as well. and please do not keep meds away from him. many parents hold back not reaslising how much worse the damage is not taking the meds (i held out with my son’s adhd as well   it’s not worth it, it can make a huge difference). it affects their entire outlook on life, their future, etc. rather go with meds if you can find something suitable and he’s willing. just personal experience. if they don’t work for him you can always stop. he’s young enough for you to still control it, it may too late when he gets to 15+. oh sister…you are describing my life. all of it. my spicy girl does have a genetic mutation that caused brain changes and epilepsy as we as an id dx. but her behavior is literally the hardest part and the physical abuse is mostly directed at me (occassionally little brother and the dog). when she was younger and i was struggling all i would hear was “kids are hard” or “parenting is tough” so for years i truly believed i wasn’t a good mom or capable of being a mom. that i was the problem. even though she was my second and i never had these issues with my son. it took years to get all our dx. i have ptsd from when she was younger in ways no one undertands. she’s almost 9. the meltdowns are still severe but happen less often. daily but not all day. i’m dreading puberty though. anyway…there’s a facebook group called extreme parenting community. they are our people. they get it. they listen. they let you know you aren’t alone. because you aren’t! sending you love and hugs!! thank you! xxoo thank you! i will definitely join! this post is exactly what my husband and i go through day in and day out. the holidays were even worse for us. i have also tried to find a support group in my area, but to no avail. trying to explain to friends and family about my son’s behavior issues is like speaking another language. i have been in an abusive romantic relationship in the past, and this all really triggers me in the worst way. my son (he’s 6) is currently on medication and starting to see a new therapist. i feel like every day is a war zone   holes in the walls, tvs/furniture destroyed. some days are good, some days are bad. you just never know what may trigger the anger. everything is an argument/fight. we rarely ever go out anywhere as a family, nor go on vacation as a family. i get anxiety at just the thought of it. some days i wish i could just run away and never come back, or even put him up for adoption. it is a constant struggle   mentally, emotionally, physically. thank you for sharing this. i would love to find a support group online. i am not on facebook. suggestions are welcome, or even starting a new group would be an option. this is our life too. my 7 year old stepdaughter. i can relate to these comments very well. my advice as an older mom is to let someone else take care of your child as much of the time as possible since they tend to do better with other people. even to the point of putting them in a boarding school or something. as far as treatment, i do recommend medication and/or natural treatments to save your sanity and theirs. one thing people don’t seem to know is that these kids are miserable. they need help. medication has it’s problems but you have to calm the constant anger and wild thoughts. gaba, b vitamins, l theanine, diphenhydramine, melatonin and other natural options can help. another option, if they will agree to it , is to get them involved in a very physical activity such as daily workouts and running outside or on a treadmill. this will help their brain chemicals and also provide positive self confidence, two things they need. yes, they take out their irrational anger on their parents, but we are the only ones that trust. if necessary, when they become adults, get them their own apartment and get them onto welfare . they seem to start turning a corner in their early to mid 20s if they make it that far without getting put in jail or killing themselves. the need our help because the world will not have pity on them. good luck to all of you. i feel you! i have actually packed a bag the night before work planning my escape. i have two neurotypical boys as well. my marriage has suffered immensely and i often find it difficult to like her or enjoy being her mother. but saying those things out loud makes me feel terrible too. i shared in my post but the only group i have found helpful is extreme parenting community on facebook. its my favorite group. and a safe space to vent where no one will judge you and everyone will understand you. so glad i have found you guys your life sounds like mine, i have 5 children 2 of them are on the verge of getting a diagnosis,the other 3 a good well behaved children,my 15 year old girl and12 year old boy are very similar behaviour wise,my son is in the verge of being permanently excluded from school,and my daughter now attends a behaviour school,my eldest daughter who is fine is studying medicine at university. i would love to set up a group so we could all meet once a month for coffee and a chat,we could help each other with ideas,i have read countless books and still find myself searching odd kids when ever i get a minute. xx this is my daily life! i would gladly join a support group. i could have written this. i would love to join your support group. hi dawn! unfortunately no support group right now. but please feel free to email me at nolegirlmitch@gmail.com if you need to talk. ???????????????? count me in on a support group! count me in on a support group! this exactly defines my daily life. i read every single comment on this page….and i am foolish to ever believe i was the only one experiencing this kind of hardship. thank you everyone who commented as it has definitely made me feel not alone. my 13 year old son was just diagnosed with odd, possible autism. still in the early stages of evaluations etc. i have several questions for some parents on here if they’re reading this: 1) does your child have urination issues? bedwetting nighttime and during the day? 2) suicide rants? rants about how he wishes he had a different life? 3) self inflicting harm? like punching /slapping himself? 4) sensory issues? not wanting to be touched, thinking clothes are contaminated? 5) cutting school? failing? 6) sneaking and watching gory things online? also pornography? 7) anti social? 8) shuts down? some of the things i’ve been personally experience. my son has never hit me but he has shown aggression towards his grandmother. 7 i absolutely understand what you are all going through and it’s so heartening to read of others in the same complicated situation. my son has just turned 7 and we have received a diagnosis of adhd recently. we have yet to explore the option of medication only because he requires an ecg before we settle on which to try first. i have been pushing for a diagnosis for years but he is ahead for his year in all areas of schoolwork so, despite his aggressive outbursts at school and home, they were not keen to help in any pursuit of a diagnosis telling me that his issues were down to immaturity. lovely as that would have been the pandemic helped us in many ways to properly document his moods and behaviours and we were seen after an 12 month wait. like others have said, my son tends to focus all of his rage on me, which is emotionally and physically exhausting. i hate that i never know from one day to the next how he will behave. never know when he will turn into this hatful child who will kick, punch, bite, swear, pull hair and generally cause as much mayhem as he can until he stops, says sorry and wants a cuddle. i too feel like i’m in an abusive relationship with my 7 year old. two days before christmas his meltdown resulted in a burst lip and gum, after he had stopped and needed me to hold him i caught sight of myself with him on my knee chatting away about something he’d already moved on to  blood all over my face. i just hope that 2022 can help us all get positive progress. i’m wondering if someone on here would even start a virtual support group   like a zoom meeting??? i am not skilled with setting that type of thing up but maybe someone else is? mine is now getting to be the opposite. 5.5 years old, adhd and anger issues came from dads side. he was terrible coming up. we put him in school this year, he was good for about a week. then all hell broke loose. he is now on medication for adhd, but he is increasinly angry and violent with the staff at school. not so much at home. i feel terrible like somehow it is all my fault, when i know it isnt. he is failing and we are starting counseling but i feel powerless right now. and he hates what happens when he goes off the deep end but he cannot really explain or control it i am in a similar situation. my son is 4. can i reach out to you? i like many others on here, cried while reading your words that could very well be my own. my oldest son is 5.5 and was just diagnosed with adhd, odd and general anxiety. throughout his life i knew the tantrums were worse than other kids and with transitions he’s always had a hard time. he is amazing at school, a “star student.” and at home it feels like complete hell most the time, i have no idea which version i’m going to get at any given moment or if i’m going to say or do something that is going to rub him the wrong way, i started laughing this morning when he was telling me i was saying what we were going to do that day “wrong.” he was so frustrated that i wasn’t saying whatever it was how he wanted me to and because i’ve run out of tears so i just laughed. obviously that didn’t help but i’m just at a loss and feeling helpless at how to help him, myself, our family. i have a three year old boy who idolizes him and will follow whatever he says. and is also a victim to his anger and physical abuse at times as much as i try to shield him from all of it. i also have a newborn girl, and we moved from nyc to miami in january. a lot of change and at the time of the move i did not know the diagnosis and the day to day was not nearly as bad. all of the change has really not helped him at all.. he’s struggling and so am i. i know we are better than this. i know he’s in there and wants to be good. we’re in therapy and moving to cbt soon. i’m praying that things will get better soon. it’s been unbearable especially because i’m in newborn exhaustion land as well. though his behavior is still more exhausting than anything. knowing i’m not alone is helpful although i still feel so alone scared and sad. would be great to be an in person support group. please let me know if that exists! community is everything. the tears are flowing as i read all of your stories. i myself have an 11 year old that exhibits these explosive behaviors. he has odd and adhd and like most of you i dread getting out of bed. i cry most days because i too feel like i’m in an abusive relationship. although i’m married i often bear this behavior alone as i am my child’s target and i am the one that spends the most time with him. this leads me to be resentful of my spouse. some days i don’t know how i will make it through. when he is medicated things are much better! sometimes i just want to run away. i can’t stop crying as i read these posts. i am also the target for my 15 year old son who has pushed me, screamed at me for years. i have often said i am in an abusive relationship. i can so identify with dreading going home, dreading the days he doesn’t work. he manages to ruin every dinner out and will not eat anything but mcdonalds. he works there and therefore orders out daily. i refuse to buy it. he will not eat anything i make, because it’s all “garbage.” i bear this alone too even though i have been married for 25 years. my husband does a super job with ignoring what is happening around him. it’s embarrassing to even be outside with him because he starts screaming about anything and everything. he calls my husband and i stupid on a daily basis. i am so tired of being angry with friends and family that have “perfect children.” it’s jealousy and i can’t help it. it has made me isolate from friends and family because no one really knows what i go through. most days i feel like i can’t get through the days. i really wish that there was a support group for this… i can identify with every thing that was said in the original post…. oh my goodness. at 15 yo my son cornered me between my bed and a sliding glass door, proceeded to pummel me with his fists in the head, and neck. he beat me up. i walked around afterwards not knowing who i was  am i a mom anymore? what did i do wrong, why did my child suddenly attack me? he’s been horrid  refused to go to school, do homework, or chores. his language is so hideous, when he calls me an “f’n b” i’m not even phased anymore. and all his shortcomings have become my fault. and the “ bad parent” stigma is soooo true. it’s hell. life is hell and nothing is fun. i’m crying now. i wanted this child so much  i still do   but i’m so afraid for him, his future. and mine. will he be with me forever? will he grow out of this? what is coming? prison? yes counseling helps but not much. i’m so tired. i’m so sad. i completely understand where your coming from,i feel your pain,the thing that gets me through the bad times is,this is not going to last forever they will grow up hopefully become good people,and we will have peaceful homes x my daughter (18) has oppositional defiance disorder. we refused to allow a written and formal diagnosis on her though and chose to just get through her childhood   because the military does not allow entry to those with odd. and now   lo and behold   she has chosen to join the military (but done little to nothing to make it happen). her childhood was pure hell. i can recall one moment of joy with her and it lasted for about an hour when she was 14, right before she got her first period. other than that one moment, she has ruined every single vacation or outing, made every day of my parenthood miserable, and every year of school has consisted of her charming teachers with her “quiet grace” in the beginning only for them to realize later in the year that the more they try to help her, the more she digs her heels in and the worse she does. i gave up trying to explain her to teachers after her freshman year of highschool. highschool was the worst, by the way. i recall actually hoping that she would carry through with her attention seeking threats of suicide just so that the nightmare would end for us all. i had to physically drag her out the door (sometimes half dressed) just to get her to go to school every day. she would lie to her teachers about me and manipulate everyone around her. she could not keep friends and to this day has no close friends. she spends most of her time coming up with new or repeating old ways of constantly annoying me, my husband, or anyone who makes the mistake of spending time with her. she sabotages job interviews, and we had to put a key lock on our bedroom door ten years ago because if we took away electronics, she would simply take them back when nobody watched. like the rest of you, telling her or asking her to do the simplest of tasks, such as brushing her own teeth or throwing away an empty water bottle she left on the counter, often erupted into world war 3. e.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g. was and still is an argument. when my husband and i interact with her we have to choose our words carefully because she turns things around to annoy   it’s a lot like either constantly being in court or a psyche ward (and she is the patient). i loathe interacting with my own daughter. i have to walk on eggshells and always be wary of anything i say or do as she will find a way to use it against me later or use it to self destruct. for instance, if i say “you need to study and do well in school so you can do well as an adult, and not wind up in a homeless shelter.” she will later tell people that her mother says she is going to be homeless ans poor when she grows up. it’s exhausting. every time she is told or asked to do something, when she is done arguing, she will always find something else that she has to do prior to doing what she was told/asked to do. all i want is for her to move out of my house and start her life. it seems like she doesn’t want to though, despite saying she does, because she resists getting a job (even though she has worked every summer for the past 4 years), and she is doing nothing to join the military. i saw 18 and graduation as the light at the end of the tunnel. but it seems like she enjoys torturing us too much   at least more than the prospect of beginning her own adult life. husband and i have given her a deadline to either be employed or get out. we bought moving boxes and told her that if she does not meet the deadline and has to leave, whatever she doesn’t pack is being donated to charity. these are the types of concrete consequences we have always had to create and deliver, because she cares nothing for the stress, heartache, financial problems, etc that she causes to us or anyone else. even her consequences aren’t real until they are. she knows that i will kick her out but she still refuses to go get a job. and when moving day arrives, she will act like a victim and as if it is a total surprise, despite being reminded almost daily. i do not envy any of you who have odd children. please try to prepare for this end game early on (the end game of getting the adult child out of your house). as getting an official diagnosis does not help in any way at all (other than giving you confirmation and validation that you’re not the crazy one), i would advise to skip that route as you’re limiting their future with any type of mental diagnosis. take it or leave it   that’s my two cents and i know many will disagree and that’s ok. i do think that an odd child is an incredibly cruel joke played by mother nature on excited and eager new parents. i feel as if i have been gypped of a real parenting experience. i feel as if the last 18 years of my life have been a living nightmare with brief moments of escape, happiness, or relaxation. i envy parents who say “sure, raising children can be tough, but the joy outweighs the tough times,” because i could not ever and still can’t relate to that statement. for me, like all of you, parenting has been my own personal hell. i feel like two decades of my life were stolen from me. my husband calls it abuse   our daughter abusing us psychologically and emotionally. all i want now, is to transition her out of our house so that i can finally live my life. i don’t even know who i am even more or how i want to live my life. i just know that anything is better than this. isabel, i am hearing everything you are saying. the diagnosis stuff, i do think, varies from state to state. but i will also say, i had a sel coordinator at my children’s school confirm for me that the diagnosis does create a stigma for the child in school and for black and brown kids it’s not a good idea if you can help it. for us, we have gone outside the school system and the diagnosis came from a child psychiatrist that recommended meds. now, because my kids are black and come out of the system, i refused to put my son on meds while the state(s) had control of their lives, their dosage, their therapy, etc. now that we have the control, we’re taking the summer to try everything   every drug and alternative therapy the dr. recommended. because i can’t live like this. i won’t make it. my beautiful marriage will die because of this, and i can’t allow that. i also feel too justified and too saddened by the joy i get out of taking my son to lunch when he’s 16 and handing him signed emancipated minor papers. this is a sick, sad world they have created around us. i pray you and your husband can find the relief you desperately need and deserve. i hope your daughter finds whatever help you couldn’t find for her somewhere out there in the world   that only god knows. omg!!! reading your post with tears in my eyes after and 1 1/2 battle on eating something and getting out of the car. my daughter is 13 and is the master of creating chaos for the sack of chaos   the littlest task and ask often escalates and drags on for hours. she is in mood stabilizers and adhd to curb impulsivity issues… but the struggle is real. i found myself avoiding her to avoid conflicts that escalate for no reasons other than to ignite chaos and the battle begins. there is only so much i can handle; i feel completely isolate and a failure as a parent. hate is such a strong word but if i am honest with my self.. i hate being around her. she also twists everything that comes out of mouth while refusing to be accountable for any action. she openly talks about wanting to hurt classmates and has posted about wanting to kill me and how she would do it to get away with it. the drama is never ending and difficult not to let it bleed over into my work life. i am purely exhausted. michelle et al, yes! yes to everything you said! our younger child (both of whom are full siblings adopted from a traumatic bio home) is a living nightmare! i am in more than a bad place with him: i actually have past dislike for him months ago, and feel like just recently i even past resentment into pure contempt. we worked so hard to adopt them, took so many years, so much trauma to us dealing with the system that claims they want to house children and then treat adoptive parents like there’s suspects. but none of the hardships we went through feel worth it. everyday he gets more and more purposefully obnoxious and defiant and hopelessly disrespectful. he’s in therapy now, but he’s been in therapy many times and nothing has helped   mostly because we can’t keep his therapists around. his last therapist switched him to in person despite the pandemic because she finally experienced from him in a session what we experience every day. while she thought she was hiding her frustrations from him, she was not: he was pissing her off to the point where she ended the session early and sent us recommendations of what to do next which was switch to someone who would see him in the office despite the persistence of covid. there are no adults in his life that are not vexed by his behavior. he used to be able to hold it together in school and not show teachers and staff who is really is, but that’s over now. all his stealing from classmates and teachers, his know it all self important behaviors towards his classmates and his inability to follow basic instructions all create a cocktail of frustration for everyone who knows him. precious few adults have not verbalized their thoughts that he needs some “old fashioned discipline” for all he puts the family through on a daily basis. while that’s a dead end in terms of a solution to his behavior, it is at least something that other adults see what we see. at least we know we’re not crazy and it’s not us   it’s him. he’s a nightmare and he directs a lot of his ire, disrespect and hostility toward me. once upon a time mommy was mean to him in a way he’s decided was unjust (which is any time he is asked to be accountable for his behavior) and now she is the enemy of the state. he literally shouts at me: “you are making my life harder!” the irony of that statement is always too much to bear. i’m making his life harder. the kid who was lingering for a year and a half in foster care whose parents neglected him so badly he was literally filthy when child services finally came and got them. the parent who fought to ensure he would never have to have visits with those animals. meanwhile, i married an amazing man that i love dearly. our marriage was amazing   not perfect, of course   but amazing. we were so happy in our lives and now we’re considering separation in the fall. i have already started looking for new apartments because i cannot live with this kid anymore. my husband is much more patient with him and therefore can handle him better than i can. i simply do not have the emotional bandwidth to continue in the abusive relationship   that at this point might be seen as symbiotically abusive. sometimes the words that come out of my mouth are horrendous   simply horrible things you shouldn’t say to a child. i know that. it doesn’t make me feel good, it makes everything worse especially my mental health and the status of our home. but there is something about this kid and the way he specifically triggers me and my hatred of bullies and jerks. some people like my husband can be forgiving and patient. i don’t have that ability   i never have. i feel a compulsion to tell bullies and jerks where to go and how to get there. i spent so many years in my life not doing that, that i no longer have the ability to stay silent now. enter my child. i was never 100% sure that parenthood was for me, and adoption is fraught with its own challenges and second guessing. add this behavioral issue to the situation and you have a recipe for a hard life. i feel like my life is ruined by this child. sad part, he knows it….because after a day of nettling, intentionally annoying behavior and public embarrassment, i told him that. that tension and my inability to not respond to his hostility is wearing my husband down. he doesn’t even like me as a person anymore   that’s clear. i don’t even know who i am as a person anymore. i’m in that kind of a dark place. i have been holding onto that feeling every single day of my life without reprieve for 5 years   that he ruined our lives. as terribly as i feel about saying that out loud and directly to him, i am also surprised that i held it in that long. i am hoping there will be a parent support group where my child has therapy, but we’ll see. in the meantime, i pray for all of you as well that your situations somehow improve, that you find the supports and relief that you desperately need and most certainly deserve. oh my goodness. this is all so hard and so so unfair. thank you for feeling comfortable enough to share your thoughts and feelings about this. they’re all valid! i hope that you’ll find a therapist for yourself, i have, and it helps. i really resonated with your description of being triggered. i’ve realized through this process of raising him, that i had some very unresolved ptsd that gets triggered when there is too much chaos. and my son represents chaos to me. i always felt like being a mommy was harder for me. i didn’t know or understand why. and now it’s all becoming clear. it is harder for some of us because of the paths we’ve walked. we don’t have the proper coping mechanisms to handle these children. i never offer advice, because we’ve all heard it all, ad nauseum. i will keep you in my thoughts. i hope you can find some help for your entire family. that’s all we can do. find help. ❤❤❤ greetings michelle! i am also having a hellish time with my 8 yr old son whom has been diagnosed with adhd plus odd! i have been hoping to find a local support group for us parents to these passionate little out of control humans as well! i am married so i am not technically parenting him alone, but i might as well be because my husband works for a big company in charlotte and he’s constantly gone. i call myself a single mom because i may as well be. my son was diagnosed in kindergarten w adhd and then a year ago was diagnosed with the dreaded odd. i used to read about this odd and i remember thinking that surely it was simply made up because some doctor decided it so! years later i finally believed it to be true of my own child, and infact with my first two kids i remember thinking surely the parents of these kids just are over analyzing their situation. wow was i ever wrong!! i’m wondering were u ever able to find any local support groups for moms like us & if not i would be willing to put all effort into starting one? partner and i have custody of his 2 youngest grandchildren. 4 year old is autistic and severely developmentally delayed with behavioral issues showing up. the multitude of services, specialists, etc for this kid is totally crazy. appointments all the time, lists of goals, objectives and tasks to work on at home. etc etc etc. then there’s the 5 year old without a diagnosis yet but the behaviors and issues are definitely present and have been for a very long time. i don’t know if it will be an odd diagnosis or not but i can so relate to so very much of what’s been posted. everything is a challenge. every day is really hard. i’m drowning in it all. with the 5 year old it’s never knowing what today will be like. will it be the defiance, yelling, screaming, sarcasm, all of those or just some….or will it be the sweet kid who listens, wants hugs and kisses and every single moment of my time all day long. either type of day is exhausting and can send my anxiety thru the roof. anxiety that once upon i time i didn’t have issues with. there’s the dread, constantly being beyond stressed out, fight or flight mode most days never really an in between. it’s my own feelings of loving these kids but not ‘liking’ them or raising them most days, being overwhelmed and over run most days and feeling like a failure because i can’t handle all this better. and feeling so very alone in it all. the list of feelings could go on and on and on. and every feeling thats not rainbows and unicorns towards these kids filling me with guilt. its the people (including my partner) who don’t understand. much of the 5 year olds behaviors are directed at me and she does not demonstrate them in front of a lot of other people. its other people (including my partner) who say i just need to give her a couple good swats on the bottom or give other fabulous disciplinary and parenting advice. they don’t get that nothing about raising this kid is typical. i just want to scream everytime someone has said “well if you would just do this” or ” you have to act like the parent, just take charge of the situation” or the absolute worst to hear “well, when my kids were growing up, they knew better than to act like that”. hence, adding to my feelings of being a failure and why i don’t ever talk about this anymore to anyone including my partner. it’s that my life got flipped upside down and then my life just slowly disappeared so to speak. i no longer have a life. it’s just these 2 kids. it’s that i’m exhausted, no longer feel joy or much thats good. it’s that every day is just going thru the motions of what must get done today and being filled with anxiety and frustration from morning till night. fears of the future…oh my what will this 5 year old be like as a teenager, knowing the 4 year old will likely never be able to take care of herself. thank goodness i don’t have time on any given day to think about that stuff too much. i have done lost my mind and can only wonder what will happen to these kids when the stress kills me. i feel the same with my oldest son. i thought i was reading something i wrote that’s how much i connected to this article. i’m in a very dark place right now my oldest has odd and autism and i swear he has no basic common sense. im at a loss and don’t know what to do anymore! i’m a single mom too. i feel so alone i’m tired of life and i have no one. his father is useless. i’m just surviving every day trying to do better than the last. but after my mental breakdown yesterday realizing i’m 31 years old and then i look back and realize i’ve done nothing. and my kids have been such a burden in my life i have no friends and neither do they because no one understands them. or me i could say too. i feel like such a waist and i’m tired every day. i’m glad to see i’m not alone but what the heck is the answer?! also where i live there is like no resources at all and i don’t have enough money. i’m so tired of this bullshit life. end vent. all i can do is send you the biggest hug. most days i’m in no better shape mentally. we’re still in therapy. his asd eval is next month. we just got back from a trip and i legit had a mini nervous breakdown because i felt trapped. there are lots of facebook groups also! you are not alone!!! you’re right people don’t understand. most of the time peoples answers are to just beat your kid. that’s not the answer. i am mentally, emotionally and physically exhausted every damn day. i feel for you so much. what state are you located in? i am in such a truly dark place right now, and reading michelle‘s words about feeling like you’re an abusive relationship, summed it up!i’ve been using that example to my close friends and family for so long, they just don’t get it. i don’t see the light at the end of the tunnel. thank you for everything you wrote, it makes sense to me. michelle sending hugs and support. we’re out of town, and i feel like i’m in a nightmare. a year later. i wish i had more to offer. ❤❤❤ good morning all. look, i’m not a parent (father) who directly has this in my life. however, i do have a girlfriend who is struggling with this and i’d like to help. i don’t know how, though. having read a lot of your concerns, it seems as though a support group might be somewhat helpful. i, myself, am in aa and it’s what i need to live life. so, i understand the importance of support groups. i know you’re all swamped (swimming, almost drowning), so may i be of assistance in maybe trying to set up a group (zoom or whatever) for you all to get together and discuss? i’d like to help because i see it (well, hear about odd and adhd) via my gf who i love dearly but can’t expend energy to me because she’s got her hands full with one of these children. what can i do as an advocate to your cause for help? thank you so much for your comment. pretty amazing that you’re trying to help! hi michelle, i have been scouring the internet looking for a support group for parents of children with odd. my son is a bit older now but i have still have trauma flashbacks and am still walking on egg shells never knowing what his reaction will be. if you are interested in starting a weekly/ biweekly online zoom support group. please message me directly. i watched the latest episode of new amsterdam on television this week where there was a support group in this episode that i so felt i could resonate with. i really really really could use some mom friends/support right now. there isn’t much locally here unless you want your business around town and to be judged by everyone. i’m losing it. i love my kiddo so much i just feel awful i can’t fix this. wow to finally hear other parents are having the same problems. i am not a horrible person but i can not take anymore of the constant barrage of negativity. i am a single parent. my son is 11. the behavior increased when school started. six years of this and i am now wishing i was not a mom. i have no life. my friends have dwindled to nothing. my son does not have friends because of his impulses. it is just a revolving door. not one single doctor or counselor will help and yes i have asked please help me. give me an outlet please. i think the online group chat may be the first time someone has even suggested something for me. is there a way we can all get in contact like maybe via email?! i’m also a single mother dealing with the same! i felt so alone until i found this page last night. i feel the same with my oldest son. he has odd and autism and i swear he has no basic common sense. im at a loss and don’t know what to do anymore! i’m a single mom too. i would love to start a group also. zoom, chats, texts, email exchanges. i think anything would help us all trade information and provide actual support and understanding. how can we trade contact info? where are you in va? i’m experiencing everything that other parents have stated here. i feel terrible for resenting my son, and feeling trapped and unable to socialize with anyone who doesn’t understand what i’m dealing with. single parent here as well, and as lonely and isolating as this is, having someone else in my life is always so much worse. the misunderstanding, explaining, increased behaviour challenges, more emotional needs to be met.. i just can’t. and yet it would help in so many ways. my son is 14 but developmentally, he’s maybe 10. in some ways more, in some ways less. but the abuse… the feelings of wasted efforts all these years, the resentment of a failed system, and the sacrifices i’ve made… it’s overwhelming. his father works counterproductively, as he’s the old school parent but also the parent who bond with him through the “men’s” activities. his father has a property and a home and i sacrifice mine to be able to support my son. who is the stable one, in the eyes of others? the one who has the home, the fun, the bond and the “he’s fine, you just let him walk all over you” attitude. why consider the reality of the situation, right? if i have mental health issues due to these years, it’s the first thing regarded. not the reason, not the source, not the effort or the love and sacrifice and lack of support. no. i’m regarded as unstable if i seek help. competitive if i compare. unloving if i complain. abusive if i reach my limit and yell, or mess up my words, or retreat to another room to gather myself while he melts down. these are all important strategies and yet we are punished for them. i empathize with each one of you, and i am also proud. to endure such things, and for so long, means that you care deeply. you allow yourself to break, for them to repair. you work so hard. you have a love for your child that actually gets brutally tested every day. we do, definitely deserve a support group. and i would be more than happy to help arrange this. hi! gosh, i’m so so sorry. i wish so much that there was a garaunteed happy ending. i’ve found a lot of support and understanding on some of the facebook adhd/odd support groups. i would definitely try those. people on there get it. xo hi! i think something like that would be great and would highly recommend checking out the facebook support groups! i still haven’t been able to organize something locally, but i think the facebook groups are a great alternative! i also feel alone, hopeless, helpless, completely inept as a parent and at the end of my rope with my adhd/odd 9 year old. i too have been searching for a parents of odd support group. i would love to be a part of that. please provide info or reach out if you want to do it. i don’t care if it’s just 2 of us. anyone who understands what i go through will be a lifeline. maggie! were u ever successful in finding a group for parents like us w adhd/odd kids? i too am in need & very willing. thanks kindly i would love this. has anyone tried to coordinate a zoom meeting. i just found this blog today while searching for a prayer online for my odd son. i feel like i hit the jackpot finding it. finding other mom’s who feel exactly like i do…it’s priceless to me, because i feel so alone with it. omg ive been dealing with exactly the same things. sadly cps has got called way to many times and now because i didn’t cave and give my 6yr son what he wanted on mothers day, he went to school told them i used a belt the week before. there was 3 tiny yellowish bruises on his buttocks and lower back. we live in a income bases apartment full of unsupervised refugee children that hit each other with twigs. no matted how many times i would throw them in the dumpster all the kids manage to find them and swing them including my son. long story short ive begged and pleated with each cps call on me and called my mom crying and saying i cant do it anymore. cps took my son and now i am being put off by cps on what i need to do to get him home. this is horrible feeling of failure ive ever felt. that it comes to him being removed to come to my rescue. not to sound horrible but grocery shopping turns into a nightmare. saying i need to do anything to my son about bedtime, needing to go get something. anything if i tell him now im in a horror flick. ive came out to notes on my car saying maybe if i talk to my son nicer, etc there isnt enough words to explain everything. but now im in a situation i possibly will not get my child back. every thing has waiting list to do. where i live is in jeopardy and no one seems to care. my past use of mj keeps coming up. which is unfair i was depressed and feeling worthless as my son got older and more difficult to parent. i can’t help but feel this is all my fault. thank you for sharing your life i know its hard for me i can only imagine anyone else having difficulty. wow, this is me to a t. we have known something was off with his sleeplessness and overactivity from being a baby. not one single childproofing item could contain this baby boy! he is now 7. mine however, does not behave at school either. we have stealing, threatening, lying. he has kicked multiple teachers at school. i do find myself crying at times and wondering where i went wrong and just feeling immensely guilty. my daughter which will be 6 soon (14months apart) has front row tickets to all this, and it kills me. like he is on medicine but it doesn’t seem to help. he admits he is too big for rules. it is like he has lived another life and has an old soul. never been one to play with toys much, but always into everything that isnt his. his #1 want on santa’s list …a robot sweeper. we go to dollar tree and he wants a padlock. just bizarre and i dont know what to make of things nor do i know if we are on the right path. i just don’t want things to get worse. so good to hear there are other people out there that can relate, but i do wish none of us had this behavior near us to relate about. me too!!!! i always felt so guilty amd horribly punished by my child, the only one ill be able to ever have due to how hes been since he could walk which was 9 months. i have wondered which day in walmart i would get baker acted trying to grocery shop with my terrorist son, whom i love more than the air i breathe every day and is beautiful, way too intelligent and as sweet as he can be at times. my gosh. i could have written this, only my child is nearing 13 and is far worse now. we’ve seen countless doctors, tried countless medications and therapies. when he was younger it was still easier. now he’s more defiant and rejects therapy. he just sits and refuses to speak or just makes things up. he makes it a game now. he takes the medications we give him (mostly) but begrudgingly, and most only work a short time before we are onto a new one. he’s been through psychological testing multiple times. his latest was severe adhd hyperactive and impulsive type. odd, anxiety, depression, and some early signs of avoidant personality disorder. the rageful fits he had as a toddler have ramped right up as a pre teen with 12 being his worst year yet. our entire family is exhausted. i’ve contemplated suicide though i’d never actually hurt myself. i love my family too much. it’s just miserable escapism because i feel trapped in what feels like a never ending cycle of stress, shame, fear and anxiety. i found this article tonight because i googled, “please tell me this hellish teen stage of adhd passes”. i really am at my wit’s end. when he reject trying literally anything, what else can be done? i truly hope the author and all those in the comment find their way through their children’s odd journey. <3 0h my i thought i was cursed now i know i’m being tested.i pray my lord i do the right things because i’m so tired! nisha, praying for strength for your heart. father, we thank you so much for being allowed to experience the beauty of motherhood. we do not understand why our families are going through this and why our precious children have such anger in their hearts. god, please strengthen us so that we can stand when we feel so beaten down. strengthen us so that we can lift our eyes up to you again and again when we feel so hopeless. pour your spirit into us so that we can be your love and your strength for our children and families. in jesus’ name. amen julie, i 100% get every single thing you said. i have searched for support through adhd and autism groups, but i always feel like there is still no one who really understands what my family is dealing with. i can tell that you and some of these other mamas commenting here are dealing with exactly the same thing. i am sending love to you all. i’m so sorry your family is going through this. if i can’t find a way to get together with you ladies, i will definitely be searching for an o.d.d. support group. finding the right therapist is a lifesaver. my daughter was diagnosed with odd at the age of 4. a very good pediatrician referred us after a discussion of trouble sleeping since birth and regular outbursts that started cropping up. progress has been slow and steady. we specifically see an art therapist, which i think is really helpful for smaller kids. hang in there. you are definitely not alone. the only “advice” i could ever give is to try and find a good therapist to help. consider getting a separate therapist for just yourself and your own sessions too! i’m sitting here crying wondering what the heck i did wrong as a mom, as i search “how to survive life with an odd child.” my kiddo is 10yo and for years we have walked on those same proverbial eggshells. today was our first time sitting in a therapist’s office after i finally accepted that my kid needs help and i can’t give it to him. i’m worn down and weary feeling like every * single * day i am getting out of bed to enter the battle field. i homeschool and have no reprieve, so this is my 24/7 reality. covid isolation and changes have only exacerbated all of it internally for him. then add to it a very recent celiac disease diagnosis. i’m in the trenches too, and i’m just here to say thank you for making me not feel so alone. my best unsolicited advice. as hard as all of this is, and even with covid, try your absolute best to surround yourself with a network of people that you can call when you need a break. some days feel so dark and hopeless. some days, the only things we can do is just walk away. that has been the lifesaver for us. we enlisted the help of sitting services, family and former daycare teachers. teachers at special needs schools, or people who have worked in a facility for neurodiverse children. take care of yourself! hugs! god bless you in your hurdle’s to to overcome. i found this article today and i couldn’t help but cry because now i know that i am not the only mom who feels this way. my son was diagnosed with adhd and odd when he was 5 years old. like your son, he is an angel at school with no behavioral issues. our sons like they are two peas in a pod. thank you for sharing your experiences. you are never alone 🙂 thank you for your article. i have a 10 year old son diagnosed and adhd, anxiety and dmdd. we, as well, have great behavior at school, like you. the further i read on your article, the less guilty i felt about the similar feelings i’ve had lately about being home on snow days and weekends and dreading them. i just keep telling myself that god never gives me more than i can handle. hang in there! this is just what i needed to read today. my son is almost 6 and he can be the best little boy but my god…things can turn bad quick. it could be something as simple as saying i can poor your milk for you and he will flip. destroys his room, screams for 30 minutes   goes into a manic state. this happens several times a day. it’s exhausting and sad   i feel like i’m deal with two individuals. one i absolutely love and another i’m terrified of. my grandson is almost 5 and has been diagnosed with odd and add as a grandparent who works full time i am at a loss as to how i can help it is heartbreaking to hear my daughter talk about what goes on all the time holy wow. i just found this blog in a moment of such despair. thank you michelle. please do start a blog, please do. thank you to everyone on this thread, it feels so lonely and scary and now i have a ton of things to google and research. and i know i am not alone. so today i cried at the new headmaster. i rarely cry, i broke down with concerns over my son’s behaviors. worry that he isn’t coping in the current lockdown. worry that his violent behavior is becoming worse and i don’t know how to stop or help him. this is hard. i love him more than i could ever explain or show. i wonder with huge guilt if i did this to him or made him this way. this is o.d.d (i think).. i too am a struggling with a child that has been diagnosed with adhd and odd. she is 8, and my middle child. everyday is a struggle! my oldest daughter is 13, and my youngest is my 6 year old son. and i feel guilty, because my middle takes up so much of my time, and they are often around when she has her meltdowns. i have been a single mom for years now. we currently live with my boyfriend of 2 years now, and it my daughters adhd/odd affects our relationship, significantly, he has 2 of his own, and doesn’t understand. i dont have any friends out here, and am basically at my wits end, trying to find some kind of support group or someone to talk to that understands. this article was super good! hang in there ! hi michelle, first off, know that your words are still reaching new readers even after almost two years! i find myself searching the net for help, answers or support all the time for the very same reason you were so brave to post about. that being said, i am a personal slave/punching bag to an almost 13 year old. who has pushed me to a point that i dont even know who i am anymore. my daughter received her formal diagnosis of adhd and odd 6 maybe 7 years ago. at the time, i was granted full custody and her biological father (who we call “ass face”) was stripped of all of his parental rights. in the months leading up to this, i married my now husband and a year later he would adopt her. cutting all physical and legal ties to “ass face”. her behavior in the years after were up and down. not specifically sticking to one more than the other. the last 3 have been the hardest years of my life!! after 6 long years, i am finally pursuing my dream of becoming a nurse. a dream that has not been easy this far. you know what they say though “if it were easy, everyone would be doing it”. i like to think i use nursing school as a crutch to get me through the next two years, however i know that the stress of nursing school has nothing to do with it. my daughter, who is taller than me and weighs more than i do is down right nasty! but only to me! in the last few months i have all but moved into my guest room and placed locks all all the bedroom and bathroom doors. she steals from me, lies to me, and has started getting physical with me the last few months. she was recently suspended from school for smacking a boy in the face, then proceeded to choke him. she has never been fully out of the bedwetting phase and i tend to turn a blind eye on daytime wetting. she has 100% no problem wearing clothes with 3 day old urine stains. and cares even less about sleeping in urine soaked sheets. she is like a damn dog, peeing on anything she thinks she owns! i do not remember the last time i sat on my couch and watched a movie. everything she wears or sits on has pee on it. this has put a stop to overnight traveling. i have such bad anxiety about her peeing in the bed that i simply dont travel with her anymore. i actually stayed home for christmas while my husband and daughter spent the holiday with my inlaws. and that is the happiest i have been in a very long time! i feel so guilty that i am dedicating all my time and energy to nursing school. it also pisses me off to no end that my husband and daughter cant seem to hold their shit together long enough for me to graduate. my marriage has suffered tremendously!! so much that i tell him that if i had the fininical means to move out, i would. no questions asked. i feel like i am being so selfish. i feel like my daughter makes it her personal goal to make me absolutely miserable. all while my husband does nothing. he thinks that shuttling her to and from soccer practice and games is his way of supporting me. my daughter plays us against eachother and picks who’s side she wants to be on that day. i feel like a prisoner in my own home. my daughter has been with the same therapist for 6 years. she no longer participates in the sessions, so i have stopped taking her. we have had her on multiple medications but i thought i was being a “better and caring” mom when she told me she didnt like the way the medication made her feel. she said she didnt feel like her self. she has started running away, once with no shoes… in 20 something degree weather. she lies about where she is, saying she is at the after school study hall when she is really at her friends. she knows when i am at my weakest and clearly uses it against me. i just feel lost and like this will never end and she will never end. i lock myself in the guest room anytime i am home. and it seems that she is a perfect angel to my husband when i do this. and that drives me nuts!!!! my husband does not seem to understand, no matter how i explain things to him. and my daughter whether she says she does or not, does not care one bit about how her actions are effecting my, or the family. the one thing i know that my family and friends do not understand is the dark place i am in. i hate my child. i have looked into putting her up for adoption. i have looked into inpatient treatment. i am just at a breaking point and dont know what to do anymore. what i do know is that i can not go on like this anymore. thank you michelle, and everyone for sharing your stories. i know we are all feeling alone, but even reading posts from total strangers can help. please, please let me know if anyone has found an online support group. i also enjoyed reading this very much! i now know that i’m really not alone! thank you!!! just knowing there are people out there who also experience this is so validating. some days are just mind bending. i would love to come to a support group, even from raleigh! please keep me posted if you set anything up. 🙂 my son has adhd and i’ve been seeing the symptoms of oppositional defiant disorder and it’s making me worry. omg did your blog hit it on the head. my husband and i got into a “discussion” about his daughter (my step daughter) last night because of her odd behavior and it is the most horrible thing i’ve ever endured in my life. especially since she’s a step child, it brings on even more. my husband feeling at a loss because she’s so awful to all of us but mainly me. if you set up any virtual support group or facebook group? i’m in! trying to get a diagnosis for what seems to be odd, most days for over a year my daughter has said she wants to kill me (and eat me). she is 5 now, i know she isn’t going to try, but society doesn’t always give you that room for nuance… so i worry will she be perfect at school someday, will she be locked up for the horrible things she says? been to a lot of parenting classes that don’t help us, perhaps they do work for standard minds, but not us. looking for any books that would possibly help. the explosive child helped somewhat, helped me change my perspective, but not the behavior. my odd child is the oldest and i have so much guilt the baby doesn’t get to go to the few places we could go to, because i can not deal with the melt downs in public anymore, i’ve become too worn down to carry both kids. just tried to grocery shop today, that was a mistake, had to carry her out screaming and hitting at 5 just like at 3 and 2… you are not alone. you are not alone in your feelings, your guilt, your hopelessness, your mental decline, your tears or anything else. reading this i felt like you lived at my house and were writing about my life. it’s almost scary to think that i birthed a human being that gets mad and calls me a b**ch at age 6. abusive in every form and yet so loving. everyday is like 50 first dates with a twist. just to wake up and say “good morning” could mean war, yet when he calms down and resembles a little boy with tears in his eyes, all i can do is cry because i don’t know how to comfort him when he’s the incredible hulk. thank you for this post. i still don’t have any answers but at least now i know that when i cry, i’m not the only one. my 11 yr old daughter has had odd since she was able to talk. i have felt abused, sad, depressed, angry, and even suicidal from guilt and hopelessness. as a person who was abused as a child this behavior brings up many negative thoughts and can be so isolating. it is helpful to know i’m not alone. thank you for your candid story. i googled this in hopes to find a blog. so thank you. you have shared my story completely. hell on earth and we have such little support. so little help still. i hope to hang out here and see if you have found any relief michelle, i am so proud of you for taking the step to connect with people who can relate. you all are like family to me now. i have watched your angel grow with these behaviors that i myself could not understand when you told me he did at home until i saw the videos. he is so sweet to me and i love him dearly. as i know now that’s another part of him. nevertheless don’t give up and always love your baby no matter what. i am here if you need me. talk soon. ???? oh my goodness, i love this so much. i’ve said several times already during this social distancing period that this is nothing new for my family. i feel like we’ve been practicing social distancing for 10 years now. the only difference here is my daughter has explosive impulse behavior. i’m not 100% sure what the difference is b/c if i’m honest, it all feels the same. we went through a sweet period where i thought things were improving and then all the sudden last spring it’s like she’s three years old again and non verbal, except she clearly has the negative words down pat. i worry that the wrong person will hear her and report us. i mean the story about the little girl in florida not so long ago, could be my life. my husband and i say all the time that no one truly understands and its so hard. our wonderful developmental pediatrician is amazing and constantly assures us we’re doing everything right but i still feel like we’re failing. failing my typical developing child as well as our asd child. my poor eight year old has the most boring life and she knows it. occassionally she’ll look at me and ask “can i just say stupid please, because this is stupid”. we monitor everything in our house and somehow we’re still struggling with the aggression and words, the words sometimes are worse than the physical aggression. i don’t even know where she hears some of these things. its exhausting knowing that i’m doing my best limit her exposure to negativity but somehow she still aquires it. i live in a small community and think all the time that i need to start a support group but there’s no one else who has a child like mine in the close areas. i am part of several fb support groups but like so many other things on fb its hit or miss. some of these moms who claim to be experiencing the same things are down right mean and judgmental. thank you so much for sharing your story. hugs and prayers to momma, i know you’re doing an amazing job with him! my son is now 11. he was diagnosed with odd at the age of 4. by the time he was six the diagnosis turned to dmdd. i could literally write a book on my journey. it was filled with many tears, frustration, anger, resentment, and hopelessness. giving up was never an option. i knew as a single mom to a brown boy i was running against the clock. i knew that if my son did not get the appropriate intervention i would eventually lose him to the juvenile justice system and that was only going to happen over my dead body. i’ve been to countless iep meetings my son has been to five schools because i refused to let him stay at a place where he is not being helped/not welcomed. it became my mission to literally save his life. i took many parenting classes, we did lots of therapy, psychiatry, and medication. i was relentless with the school system. it took many years but i’m proud to say that in january 2020 he was mainstreamed into a regular class and has had little to no behavioral issues. don’t let anybody tell you that this is it. the great thing about oppositional defiant disorder is that it isn’t a mood disorder per se… it is a behavioral/conduct disorder and it can be adequately treated with appropriate behavioral interventions. i advocated for an aba therapist and eventually the school system brought one in but even then it required me to stay completely on top of them. i’ve been there… where are you don’t see an end in sight and i feel robbed of so many years with my son because of it but i’m glad to say but all the suffering was worth it. in my desperation i came across an advocate that helped me understand how the school system really works when it comes to children with behavioral challenges. usf hotdocs, positive tools for parenting, pbs, aba therapy, parent child interaction therapy (pcit). my single biggest struggle was getting through to the school system. if you can’t get them on board it will be very challenging. as of right now my son no longer has a diagnosis of odd or dmdd, he only has a diagnosis of adhd… i can’t tell you if it’s because he grew out of it or because all of the interventions worked. i do agree there definitely isn’t a support group for this but often times connecting to those people taking the same parenting classes you can help. constantly reminding yourself that your child’s behavior at school should never dictate your relationship with your child is also vital. stay strong. daisy, thank you so much for your message. it’s amazing what an amazing advocate and mom you’ve been for your son. what an amazing story you have to share. and how wonderful that he’s now in a mainstream education class. amazing! thank you again and best of luck. yes! this! we don’t have a diagnosis other than adhd but i feel like i now know what to call it! i jokingly call him bipolar because he will flip from angel to demon if his hot dog is cooked wrong (any little thing). absolute eggshells. and of course he’s an angel at school. my son being an angel at school and only oppositional with us was absolutely maddening. i started taking videos to show his pediatrician and his teachers bc i felt like i was crazy. of course, when he caught me videoing, it made it 1000 times worse. ugh. please feel free to reach out any time ! nolegirlmitch on ig ! i am so sorry, michelle. no fabulous words of deep wisdom, unfortunately, but definitely sending strength and compassion. thank you so much! omg! i just love reading through this blog, and the comments… i am in tears… my son is 9 and though i have tried every outlet, we are still alone… i say that with tears in my eyes… we are alone! he was diagnosed with adhd and odd at 5 we are at 9, he beats me down and calls me every name in the book… but i love him. he is mine. as the neighborhood kids play he is often grounded for being unruly put there, and not one of these parents care what i am going through.. no one reaches put unless to complain… my family is alone in this fight and love battle. i am so happy i found your blog. i am loosing it over here and i am so glad there are families going through the same thing, because i feel so alone on all this. so so alone. thank you so much for your kind words! thank you so much for this post. my son is 7 and has been oppositionally defiant since 15 months. he was recently diagnosed with adhd   as was i   and his odd symptoms have worsened with the pandemic stress and frequent changes in schedule. it feels like no one understands, because it’s only at home that he terrorizes us. i’ve used the jekyll & hyde and bruce banner & hulk analogies, too, because it’s like two different kids when he is doing something that he wants to and when we ask anything of him. we recently started him on ritalin, and i think it’s making him aggressive. he defied me all day when he was supposed to be doing virtual school. tonight he kept trying to lunge at and bite his dad, little sister, and me. he was like a rabid animal, and it really scared me. i’m in tears and despairing because we are spending so many resources on him and i don’t know if and when things will improve. i wasn’t able to do any work for my job today because i was battling him. i’m so tired and feeling grateful to read this post and the comments. sending love and hope to all of you. it helps to know that you get it. michelle, thank you so much for being candid, real, and painfully eloquent in speaking the truth of this disorder. for the first time in years i feel like someone understands my life. tears…every. single. word. exactly…it’s like living in an abusive relationship but you can’t leave the abuser. my now 11 year old, was diagnosed at 5…although i knew something else was going on with him even as a baby/toddler. i would love to be a part of a support group of some kind and appreciate you reaching out to others about this. ❤️ hi! i have been thinking of starting a group! even if it’s just dinner and drinks with people who understand. i’m not on facebook, but i friend requested you on ig to try and connect. thank you so much for your sweet comment. i am going through a lot of this with my child. everyone thinks its lack of discipline or that i don’t have enough time to teach him to behave. i the process of trying to write this i have been slapped, and head butted. we are waiting on testing to get the diagnosis but i have known that something is not right. i am not on instagram i dealt with other people blaming us for our parenting for years. and they’re wrong. we’re still in therapy to learn how to parent this child. that’s all any of us can do. keep talking, keep trying to get help. thank you. he just turned 4 and we were just referred for testing when the world went into chaos you are not alone..trust me!! i felt the same way with my daughter. my daughter was originally diagnosed at 6 with adhd, anxiety, and odd. then diagnosed by another team of doctors with adhd, anxiety, ptsd, and dmdd. dmdd and odd go hand in hand and have alot of the same traits. i use to cry everyday and dread for the next day because i knew exactly how horrible it was going to be. she is currently in therapy and on medication as well. there are support groups on facebook with parents who have children with odd which might help you. if you ever need someone to talk to or just need to vent, please reach out to me. keely, thank you so much! i honestly had to google dmdd by i wasn’t family with it. wow, does seem so similar. i appreciate so much your offer and i hope that when this is all over i can use this forum to get some of us together to have a nice support group. i’m really looking forward to starting something as soon as we can meet in person! so glad you found me! i’m always here to listen. thank you so much for your honesty in this article. i truly appreciate the insight you shared into your daily life, and my heart breaks for your family. i think it is a great wake up call to some of the trivial problems i complain about with my kids, especially during this time of isolation. i hope that someone who can relate is able to read this and start a support group with you! thank you, rachel! always appreciate your kind and thoughtful words of support! i read this and started bawling, it’s such a relief to know i’m not alone. my 9 year old step daughter has adhd and odd. she was diagnosed in december. unfortunately her mother just had a new baby and doesn’t see a need to follow any of the psychologists recommendations for psychotherapy or for parenting support groups etc. my husband tries but due to being in the same position often shuts down as his way of coping. i do feel like i’m in an abusive relationship some days. i love her so much, and i go through a cycle of feeling guilty when i’m not at 100% and than i beat myself up for not being a good step mom because she’s just a kid but some days it’s so hard. some days i have panic attacks in the bathroom. i dread our sleepover weekends because bedtime has been a fight for years. sometimes it drains me of everything i have. the fighting, the walking on eggshells. thank you for sharing. i really needed to read this today! thank you so much to everyone who has commented on this! i can’t wait for things to settle and we can all get together, and have some giant glasses of wine! i will absolutely use this forum to let everyone know! hugs to all! you are my voice today???? you are not alone, my 5.5 year.old daughter is going through the diagnosis process now ( which is taking so long nowadays to find anyone to take on new patients) i was not familiar with odd before a friend suggested i look into it, and boy am i glad i did. everything you said is as if i was talking about my daughter. we avoid doing most activities with friends and family who doesn’t understand. we also struggle with family who watch her during the day and doing what they “think” is the correct way to help them. not everyone being on the same page. i feel.so guilty for my withdrawn behavior towards her but i honestly have no control over it at times. then i feel guilty that we don’t do as much as her friends or family so we bring her places and end up regretting it cause the slightest of things will set her off. in desperate need of a support group! i am also a mom with a child with adhd and odd. my son who is now 10 was diagnosed early on and i have been trying to get help for years! i’ve tried therapy an psychiatrists…everyday is a struggle and i’m at a point to where i can barely keep it together. i’m not sure what to do anymore. nothing i say or do works. i too need a support group! i was really moved by this post. thank you so much for sharing your struggle. i am sorry you are going through what you are going through. it sounds incredibly stressful. i think there’s power in numbers and sharing stories and i know you are not alone. i hope the comments from others helped give you encouragement and strength. i too can relate. not as the biological parent, but the partner of someone who has a son with adhd and odd traits. while pregnant. during a pandemic. with a hyperactive puppy and cats that do not get along. it is hard. i pray for us all to have the strength and peace we need to get through our days and i hope we can all find some joy in our lives amidst the struggle. thank you all so so much for your support. here we are, a year later, and today was a hard day. i was hit, had a remote thrown at me, and watched my son urinate himself most of the day. i feel so fortunate that this blog has helped me feel less alone. ❤❤❤ your email address will not be published. required fields are marked * comment * name email website save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time i comment. δdocument.getelementbyid( "ak_js_1" ).setattribute( "value", ( new date() ).gettime() ); triad moms on main is more than a local blog! we are an all inclusive resource for parents in greensboro, winston salem, burlington, high point and the surrounding triad areas. © 2025 triad moms on main | by wild design

narcissistic relationships are formed when one or both partners struggle with a narcissistic personality. narcissistic personality disorder (npd) is defined by the mayo clinic as “a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance and a deep need for admiration. those with narcissistic personality disorder believe that they’re superior to others and have little regard for other people’s feelings. but behind this mask of ultra confidence lies a fragile self esteem, vulnerable to the slightest criticism.” we live in an increasingly narcissistic world. hard statistics and science are pointing in this direction. the “look at me” mentality that is often promoted by social networks like facebook has people positively enamored with the image they present to the world. in addition, we may now be seeing the negative effects of the self esteem movement on a larger scale. so how does this rise in narcissism impact our personal relationships? for one thing, more narcissism means more narcissistic relationships. professor brad bushman of the ohio state university put it bluntly, when he said: “narcissists are very bad relationship partners.” studies show that in a narcissistic relationship, your partner is more likely to engage in manipulative or game playing behaviors and less likely to be committed long term. a relationship with a narcissist can be hard to cope with. to shed light on the common outcomes, struggles, and effects of a narcissistic relationship, we’ve interviewed psychologist and author dr. lisa firestone. when thinking about narcissism, i’m often reminded of the joke when someone goes on and on about themselves, then interrupts with, “but enough about me, how do you feel about me?” if your partner is all about themselves, always needing attention and affirmation, he or she may be a narcissist. if someone is easily slighted or over reactive to criticism, they may also be a narcissist. if they feel they are always right, that they know more, or that they have to be the best, etc., these are also signs of narcissism. narcissistic individuals may only appear to care about you when you are fulfilling their needs or serving a purpose for them. a narcissistic relationship can lead to a lot of emotional distress. it is estimated that around 1% of population suffers from npd. however, many people who have npd do not seek treatment and therefore are never diagnosed. studies show that men are more likely to be narcissistic. roughly 75% of the individuals diagnosed with npd are men. although almost everyone has some self centered or narcissistic traits, most people do not meet the criteria for having a personality disorder. there is, however, a growing portion of the population that is displaying a greater number of toxic, narcissistic traits, which are having an adverse effect on their lives and the lives of people close to them, even if they do not meet the clinical diagnosis of npd. forming attachments to individuals who exhibit these negative traits often causes similar distress as a diagnosable narcissistic relationship. a new study from ohio state university has found that one simple question can identify narcissists as accurately as the 40 item test that has been widely used to diagnose npd. the question is simple, rating yourself on a scale of 1 7: “to what extent do you agree with this statement: i am a narcissist. (note: the word ‘narcissist’ means egotistical, self focused and vain.)” you can even try out this free interactive narcissism quiz. however, while this study suggests that many narcissists will freely admit to their narcissistic tendencies, it is important to note that most narcissists resist the diagnosis of npd. narcissists, generally, do not like to be told that they are narcissists. in fact, they often have a strong negative and volatile reaction. below are some common traits that a narcissistic relationship partner is likely to have: (note the degree to which these traits manifest themselves will vary largely depending on the individual.) why do people become narcissistic? is it a symptom of something else? narcissistic people often have narcissistic parents, who offered them a build up but no real substance. their parents wanted them to be great, so they could be the parent of a great person, the best artist, smartest student, etc. often narcissistic people were also neglected, as their parents were so focused on themselves that they could not attune to their child or meet their child’s emotional needs. the child was only useful to these parents when they were serving a purpose for them. often, the parents of a person with npd alternated between emotional hunger toward the child and disinterest. narcissists have inflated self esteem (both self soothing and self aggrandizing “voices”) a component of what my father, dr. robert firestone, refers to as the “anti self.” they are very fragile, because the flip side of their self aggrandized feeling is very low self esteem, the other component of the anti self (made up of extremely self hating and self demeaning “critical inner voices”). so, for these people, even slight criticism can be a narcissistic injury, leading to an angry outburst and desperate attempts to regain their fragile, inflated self esteem. often, a condescending remark will help them to reestablish their superior image. condescending is a common dynamic in narcissistic relationships. this behavior can be traced back to the need desperate need narcissists feel to be above others. what are the different types of narcissism? while all narcissists are likely to show certain behaviors, not all narcissists are the same. in fact, there are two different types of narcissism, grandiose narcissism and vulnerable narcissism. these types of narcissism stem from different early childhood experiences andlead to different behaviors in a relationship. grandiose narcissists display high levels of grandiosity, aggression and dominance. they tend to be more confident and less sensitive. they are often elitists and have no problem telling everyone how great they are. usually grandiose narcissists were treated as if they were superior in their early childhood and they move through life expecting this type of treatment to continue. in relationships, grandiose narcissists are more likely to openly engage in infidelity or leave their partners abruptly if they feel that they are not getting the special treatment that they think they are entitled to. vulnerable narcissists, on the other hand, are much more emotionally sensitive. they have what dr. campbell describes as a “fragile grandiosity,” in which their narcissism serves as a façade protecting deeper feelings of inadequacy and incompetence. vulnerable narcissists swing back and forth between feeling superior and inferior. they often feel victimized or anxious when they are not treated as if they are special. this type of narcissism usually develops in early childhood as a coping mechanism to deal with abuse or neglect. in relationships, vulnerable narcissists often worry about how their partners perceive them. they can be very possessive, jealous and paranoid about their partners having flirtations or affairs. how does a narcissistic partner negatively impact a relationship? narcissistic relationships tend to be very challenging. narcissistic partners usually have difficulty really loving someone else, because they don’t truly love themselves. they are so focused on themselves that they cannot really “see” their partner as a separate person. they tend to only see the partner in terms of how they fill their needs (or fail to fill their needs). their mates and children are only valued in terms of their ability to meet these needs. narcissistic partners often lack the ability to have empathy with their partners’ feelings. this lack of empathy leads to a lot of hard feelings. yet many people are drawn to narcissistic relationships. narcissistic partners can be very captivating, especially at the beginning. they tend to have a “big” personality. they are the life of the party. they can make you feel that you too must be great for them to choose you. however, in time, they can be too controlling in relationships. they may feel jealous or easily hurt. when narcissistic injuries occur, they often lash out and can be cutting. their reactions are dramatic and attention seeking. according to narcissistic personality expert, dr. w. keith campbell, “the effects of narcissism are most substantial in relation to interpersonal functioning. in general, trait narcissism is associated with behaving in such a way that one is perceived as more likable in initial encounters with strangers  but this likability diminishes with time and increased exposure to the narcissistic individual.” this is why many people, who have been in a long term narcissistic relationships, describe a very passionate and exciting honeymoon period in the beginning and then a sharp decline as the likability decreases and the self centered behaviors increase. narcissists are prone to falling madly in love with someone instantly and are very quick to commit. however, this initial love and commitment is not easily sustained. when you are in a narcissistic relationship, you may feel very lonely. you might feel like you are just an accessory and your needs and wants are unimportant. narcissistic partners act as if they are always right, that they know better and that their partner is wrong or incompetent. this often leaves the other person in the relationship either angry and trying to defend themselves or identifying with this negative self image and feeling badly about themselves. read: is there a cure for narcissism what are some things a person can do to deal with a narcissistic partner? if you find yourself in a narcissism relationship, you can first recognize what you have chosen and reflect on the unconscious motives that might have led you to choose such a partner. did you have a self centered parent? are you more comfortable with your partner being in control, so you can then take be more passive? do you get a sense of worth from being attached to someone who is in the spotlight? does the negative image of yourself they foster with their criticisms and superior attitudes resonate with your own critical thoughts about yourself? many people who fall in love with narcissists have issues around co dependency. they will put up with a certain amount of abuse because they don’t feel confident enough in themselves to set boundaries or be on their own. understanding your role in the narcissistic relationship is important. you can then start to challenge yourself to change your half of the dynamic. this will, in turn, challenge your partner to change their style of relating. you can recognize the fragility of your partner’s self esteem and have compassion for the fact that his or her inflated sense of self, superiority and grandiosity is a cover up for the flip side of self hate and feelings of inadequacy. you can also develop your own self confidence and self worth by learning to practice self compassion. don’t be a victim. in all encounters, act equal, and treat your partner as an equal. how can people face and overcome their own narcissism? a narcissist can challenge and overcome their narcissism by recognizing and separating from both the self soothing, self aggrandizing and self attacking attitudes of their critical inner voice. the attitudes they internalized very early on in their lives. they need to recognize and challenge these attitudes toward themselves and toward others. one method for doing this is through voice therapy. narcissists further need to differentiate from negative traits of their parents or early caretakers that they are still acting out in their current lives. these traits might include superior attitudes or condescending behaviors. they also need to give up the adaptations they made to the ways their own parents neglected them or were emotionally hungry toward them. these adaptations may have once been their survival mechanisms, but they now manage to push others away and sabotage personal lives and goals. narcissists also need to break patterns of being self centered or withholding. they must fight the tendency to always compare themselves to others and the need to be the “best” or “perfect” all the time. another way to cure narcissism is to foster self compassion rather than self esteem. psychologist dr. kristin neff has done extensive research on self esteem versus self compassion. the difference between self esteem and self compassion is that self esteem centers on evaluating yourself in relation to others and emphasizes a need to be special. while self compassion focuses on “treating oneself with kindness, recognizing one’s shared humanity, and being mindful when considering negative aspects of oneself.” dr. neff’s studies have found that self esteem leads to higher levels of narcissism, but self compassion does not. self compassion actually combats narcissism because it includes the idea of a shared humanity with all other human beings, which leads to more compassion for others. self compassion also fosters real self awareness, a trait many narcissists lack, as it promotes that we be mindful of our faults, which is the first step to changing negative traits in yourself. for there to be any hope of recovering a good relationship from a narcissistic relationship, the narcissist must overcome their self centered and negative traits. they need to challenge their self feeding habits and pseudo independent stance. they need to focus on developing their capacity for empathy and respect of others. lastly, they need to develop transcendent goals, to care about and invest in others’ well being. being generous and giving to others are examples of behaviors that would be corrective, building real self esteem and practicing focusing outside of oneself. i was a major victim of a narcissist! it has destroyed my family, business, friends and now rolls into my current relationship. i was with her for 11 years   then we split for a while, i met someone else who was wonderful and i swore that i would never go back (this is before i understood what a narcissistic was or that i was being so damaged). unfortunently, i went back to the sick narcissistic person for a few weeks  and destroyed my new relationship. then i found out more about a narcissist person . why i would do such a thing? the person i really want to be with is giving me a 2nd shot to be with her, but wants more answers as to why i went back to the freak narcissist to begin with… i don’t have an answer for her, other than  “”unless you are a victim, you will never know what hell i’ve been thru” there are no articles online that explain why a victim of this abuse would go back to it! it was one of the biggest mistakes of my life to even do so. does anyone have any advice as to why a person would go back to a narcissist? i am in the same situation jeff. i was with a terrible narc for 8 years …this june will be 2 years he left   but he is back and wanting to fix our marriage up. i am frustrated that i seem to have this ‘hook’ in my head that connects me. it is most certainly not love nor a deep attraction …it is more of an unresolved question …why did this happen to me?? i wonder if it is easier to try to return to the abuse and become numb again rather than accept the magnitude of the abuse that has been inflicted   especially by someone i loved so purely. not sure   but i know i need time away to heal properly. some whopping wounds to get right   and confusingly i still wonder ‘what if he dos get better …?’ . sickening! i was in a relationship like this for nearly six years and in the end i felt like i had no sole left not only had he left me in debt he took all our belongings and i have 3 children to raise. he physically abused and put down my eldest child and continually pathologically lied in the end i thought there was something wrong with me. we had two biological children together who witnessed this behavior. i could not put them through it anymore, even though i lost my self worth primal instincts kicked in and i confronted him and told him he was nothing but a lying thieving child abusing womanising prick and left! that was 8 months ago. i have no intention of returning, he ripped my heart out for nearly six years so all i have left is my brain, always go by your instinct. they will never change because they are incapable i was just abruptly dumped by a narc. this individual manifests many of the described features   lack of empathy, always glancing in mirrors, devoted gym rat, pictures of her all around her home, difficultities at work with interactions, distaining others, feeling superior and actually rejecting gifts when these did not meet her standards. there was never enough that i could do for her. when i would even suggest that there is a problem, she rejects this and turns it around. here’s the question   i’m out of her life   by her choice. should i reach back as a friend and suggest that she seek treatment for her npd? jeff, the narcissist has a wonderful ability to make you feel that you are attached to them in such a way that is extraordinary, that the relationship you share with them can never be had with anyone else and you learn to see, to justify it to yourself, as a fact of life. they make you feel like they need you, and i don’t just mean simply need you; it is rather an insatiable desperation to have you there for validation and affirmation that makes you feel you are the only one who could possibly make them feel that way and also help them to see the light. if you reject them, it would represent some kind of death, to say the least the death of the illusion of their capacity to love and be loved which they so badly need to believe in. but it is not your responsibility to help them see themselves clearly and you will end up being embroiled in a tortuous losing battle. it is in my experience that you will not come out of this winning because the narcissist is driven by the need to outdo you and everyone else in the first place. it is all about number one. so perhaps it would be better for them to recognize the irony of being number one, which is self responsibility. it should occur to them over a period of time that they have managed to create for themselves a long trail of failed relationships and that the reason it did not work out was because of them. it is their responsibility to take a long and difficult look at themselves and see that what is amiss was in thanks to their contributions all along. in this case, compassion is so important and so is feeling sorrow; however, it is vital that you break out of this or at the very least establish some safe distance in order to come to terms with the fact that you cannot go back. jeff, i suggest you take that rejection as an opportunity to pack it and go, and go forever and never look back. the narcissist is a vacuum of chronic emptiness and the need to play the power game with you in which they will always come out with the upper hand. i would imagine that the humiliation and shame (the authentic emotions) of being exposed as someone with ndp would only be recognized as an affront to their ego which gives them more license to purge you the way they would purge everyone and everything for which they can find no utility. hi, i find your article very interesting. i just ended a four years three months relationship. i passed through alot and i am so angry with myself that i let my partner do things to me such as humiliated me in front of other women. i always helped him in so many ways. unfortunately what i did was never enough. i tried so many times to leave him but it was not that easy ! he always did his best ta win me back and i was foolish enough to go back to him. i feel he took my strength out of me and he made me feel so insecure. i never trusted him 100% i had my doubts ( i knew he lied to me sometimes). now i have to pick up my pieces put them together again and move on unfortunately it is not that easy. i am seeing a psychotherapist to help me do that. i was a victim of a npd partner. hi, thanks for this extremely insightful piece. i had a relationship with someone i found out he had npd after our relationship ended. the relationship lasted for about 7 years and was all in all painful since i had invested to much in it, even breaking up a marriage in a country i had just migrated to. i was left alone with my problems and even criticized for being sad and depressed after i realized what a disappointed case he was. he did absolutely nothing, except talking a lot but no action. he seemed to have a serious problem with “giving” and trusting others, and was emotionally cold even at times i was seriously sad and was expressing it. i always sensed there was something wrong emotionally with him, but could not find an answer. apparently he went through years of therapy, but he never mentioned the real reasons of it. he mentioned the same issues raised in the article that people with npd generally experienced with their parents. an emotionally needy parent with high expectations of success, as well as a parent who neglected him in early childhood. he even once raised this early childhood problem while with his parents just few years ago when he was in his mid 50s. i thought back then that this was not something normal. i tried to leave him few times but never really could since he had many other great qualities and i felt attracted to him. after my last leave, i came back to my country feeling sad and depressed. i then thought that perhaps i could try accepting him the way he is and the fact that he did not want children (even though at the beginning he promised me to have children). i returned back to the states just to find out he found someone else. i am still very much in pain on this issue, but try to think how painful my last years were, and that perhaps i should feel luck he found someone else. i always felt lonely and not being cared for (of course i can care for myself but in a relationship one wants to feel that the partner cares). he never accepted that fact and thought he gave so much. all he gave was lots of talking, and at time criticizing. many times he was extremely insightful on a number of issues, but on the other side he was sort of emotionally cold and always totally absorbed with himself that made it impossible to feel happy. my partner and i have been together for 13 years. i have issues of my own that i have been working on and each time i thought i had an understanding of myself i would have relationship issues that made everything collapse. i have now been exploring my partners issues to see how the dots connect. at the very least he is a male chauvinist but i suspect some narcissism tucked away in there somewhere. the relief for me is that my individuation process is still intact. the extra issues that threw me are not mine. however now that i can emotionally separate the two how do i go about helping him whilst still preserving our relationship and myself? i do not get it, i left my hubbie after 25 years of marriage, was fine with the separation proceedings and moving out into a new home and starting a new chapter in my life. but now only 2 months into the separation, he is beginning a new relationship and apparently introduced our children to the new person. my heart is bursting into pieces and i feel like a piece of shit. why does this news about a new person just hurt so much, when originally i felt confident about things working out ok with taking a step away from a relationship in which i felt like an appliance and lonely anyway!? it sounds like my separated husband is making this news public in his dance club and is out celebrating his bd with friends his “new” and two of our little kids who are at home right now. i had asked him to wait, introducing a new person to our kids, but he did not respond to my request and so i said to him that this makes me think that he will not wait, and again, no response from him…. the implications seem clear. am i insane or what that this makes my head spin and i feel like losing my mind!? part of what i do not get is that i have invested 25 years of my life into an unfulfilled marriage, and he does not even give it 2 months to grief the loss of it. is this all, my commitment was worth to him? maybe, i am insane… i feel like being ripped into pieces and am lost with almost no social network, almost all my friends used to be my husband’s friends. why am i so scared that this next relationship may fulfill my spouse and make him happy   something, i had wished for, hoped for and fought for for so many years. how did you guys make it through this most initial time of feeling cut off from your most immediate significant other and the rest of the world   with no real foundation of positive feed back at all. maybe i am the one who suffers from npd… my fiancée of 2 years, been together for 3, and i moved in together a year ago. i feel as though, i was wooed initially into this living arrangement, but because i had been married before, i wanted to know we were compatible. i have to admit, i’d already suspected he might have a personality disorder, but i couldn’t peg it. it seems if it doesn’t have anything to do with him directly, he doesn’t care. my home for instance, he thinks nothing of it to abuse it or not maintain what i’ve established. i did not get it at 1st because i wanted him to feel welcomed. he doesn’t participate socially, if it is not his idea or if someone else’s light shines brighter than his. otherwise, he retreats to a corner and sulks. it is very embarrassing. i have learned to ignore him and not make excuses. much of what you posted, has been very helpful. thank you for sharing and continue to post. my question is, how to get him out of my house? i don’t want to continue down this road. i have been married to a man who fits this description  the problem i have is that he has become very successful and everyone we know, especially my children, have benefitted from his success…he has woven a very intricate web in which everyone is dependent on him for $, tickets to concerts, games, etc., boating, parties, etc…i have been separated from him over a year and to move on i need to be willing to start over with new friends, new home, new town, etc…he basks in all the attention, even from our children, and i am left with nothing… for jen: you cannot help him. you can help yourself. i have been living with narcissistic husband for 15 years. all my question were answered when i have learned what narcissism is. i have left him with 3 children and a protection order in my hands. after 4 month he moved back with me with my permission. yes, i was wounded, yes, i was stressed but i am giving him another chance knowing that i am not available to help him (as you know i have done everything for him and more but it was never enough). what i know is that i am available to help to me. i know why i am in this relationship, i know kids adore their father, i know how to create my strong boundaries, i know how to take care of my well being. it works. but only if you will start loving yourself and stop pleasing your surrounding. good luck to all of you! i can identify with all of u.i was involved with a narcissist for 4 years. i remember all the attention he gave me to suit his needs,charm,exaggeration s,grandiosity, that hooked me.as time went on i saw how needy, manipulative, controlling, in denial,jealous,insecureimmature threatening,lying,noncompassionate,selfcentered …he really was. i realized he was destroying me but loved that i was a strong, independent womanall for his use. he still tries to use distorted,sick tactics to win me back. taking care of yyourself and not them is the only way out.no expectations, hope and no more disappointment. sylvia, i am going through the exact same thing. i met my husband when i was 15 and have been with him for 18 years now. he has severe narcissistic personality disorder and has been vile for 18 years. i have tried to leave him, sometimes he’s been gone for a few months but still has a hold on me because of our 3 kids. this time he’s met a woman and suddenly wants to pay for the kids which he has always refused to do because of all these men i am supposed to be sleeping with, and he wants to see the kids every weekend. i know this is all for her benefit. its for show. i know he’s only interested in the kids when there’s something in it for him and i don’t want my children being affected any more than they have been by the way he is. but if i stop him, to the world i look bad. he’s making me out to be awful when its him. so why am i here crying after seeing a status she put on a social networking site about how wonderful he makes her feel, how special and loved. i don’t want him back, i can’t stand him so why am i so upset? according to him she is a real woman with a real woman’s body,not an ugly fat dog like me. why do i always come off worse? i’m struggling to work, look after the kids, i’m left with debt and bills and a house that’s falling apart yet he comes out like a king and walks straight into a perfect relationship. i know this is what narcissists do but it doesn’t make it any easier in my head after i stuck it out for 18 years. that’s my entire adult life. i have no idea what it’s like to be loved. to feel love. i’ve never felt real affection. how can i move on? how can i trust anyone? i feel like i’ve been so damaged by him i can never be fixed. how interesting to read all of this..i can identify as i have been in a relationship with someone who displays so many of these characteristics. what hell this relationship has been and i am mentally exhausted. i used to feel i was going crazy and that it was my fault. we’ve been to counseling so many times which never helps as the therapist never sees his as he really is…he hides how he really feels and talks to me differently than when we were there. he constantly criticizes me and tries to make me feel i’m never good enough. they can’t be helped and the only person you can help is yourself. now that i really recognize what the issue is, it helps but now need to get the strength to get out of the relationship. the thought of being alone is terrifying at this age even though i know you cannot rely upon a man for happiness. i was with an npd for almost 9 years off and on… i was with him in highschool and for 7 years after highschool. he was my best friend and i will always always love him… but the truth is, i was alone. i had a daughter (not with him) and was working 2 full time jobs, and going to school time and a half… i was homeless for a year and a half and he didn’t care. he was failing out of college (for which i was paying his tuition), he hadn’t had a job in almost 3 years because he would get hired for one… and was just too irresponsible to keep it for more than a week. he was ambitious and had some wonderful ideas but part of his family just fed him all he needed to keep his narcissism going. his sister was a highschool drop out, his mother was a drug addict, his brother was a drug dealer… and all of them were narcissistic. his father wanted what was best for him… so he wound up shunned. it took me a very long time to leave him, i’d tried so many times before but he would always pull me back in. i did everything for him… and while he would do a few small things for me here and there (like opening car doors)… that was about all he did. he was constantly ditching me, my needs didn’t matter and my accomplishments were put down… i was working myself to death and i was never appreciated. he was even physically abusive and i was unable to be myself in a relationship where i had given my all… when i finally left him, i had just graduated with 2 degrees and 3 certifications and i’d landed a job in my career field… he didn’t show up to my graduation and when i broke up with him… he let his drug addict mommy do all the talking for him… i came away from that relationship smiling and i was happy… i was finally free… until i met someone else and fell very quickly into all of his wonderful qualities that my ex lacked… it wasn’t until then that i realized how much damage my ex had done… while i was able to be myself with the new guy, and felt totally comfortable and safe… he told me i was trying too hard, i tried to overcompensate when i did something wrong and i was way too hard on myself… i realized just how afraid i was in any relationship after getting out of such a terrible one. im a strong person, and when i came out holding my head high… i thought i was okay and undamaged… boy was i wrong! i new exactly who i was but i felt like i wasn’t good enough, i wasn’t pretty enough, and i was never going to be enough… i’d accomplished a lot of things that i should have been proud of… but i was left with this feeling of emptiness… he stole my soul, he took my personality, and he totally ruined my spirit… i wanted so bad to give someone else the benefit of the doubt and trust them… convinced that not everyone was the same as my ex… but once the new guy would do something that i didn’t understand… i was nothing but a pile of emotions… (how could i be so stupid to believe in someone else? what was so wrong with me? why in the hell would i subject myself to that again? was my ex right… was i really such a terrible person? and should i just go back to him because i’ll never get better?)… the truth is… just about anyone i could find was better… even just laughing with another person made me feel like i mattered. it had been so long since i smiled, or laughed, or felt like i genuinely mattered that everything was so exhilarating … it is very hard to move on from something like this… but it is very possible… the best i can recommend for all of you is that you realize that you are not to blame! you are worthy of something better and you will find something better… even if you’ve hung your hat on that person and thought you would always be together… just remember that not everyone is like that… and try to find someone that can empathize with your past relationships and help you work through damage that has been done… maybe not even a new significant other… but even just a friend, to remind you that you are wonderful and that you will be okay… life is too short to spend it miserable and knocked down by someone who never cared in the first place. good luck to you all! good morning, i have read through all of the posts and i am left wondering is it me or is it him. i have been in a relationship for 8 years, and i can honestly say it has not been the best years of my life. i just recently admitted that i am not happy. i cannot go on like this; i have been drinking more than ever, smoking more than ever, and most of all i have been feeling as though i am going crazy. quite frankly i am sick and tired of not being entitled to my feelings. when things have gone wrong in the relationship and i stated my feelings the reply back is “you should not feel that way, i did not mean for you to feel that way.” my live in boyfriend has all the traits of a narcissist however i wonder how many of the traits i possess. i am a person that believes in self help, reading, meditation, walking, gym, etc… however lately i feel like i cannot get out of my own way. my thoughts are convoluted, to the point i am becoming suspicious. i have been constantly looking for proof that he is not what he wants everyone to believe he is. my partner always devalues my feelings with answers such as, “now you know how i feel”, even though he knows my hurt feelings were due to him. another example is he throws my feelings in my face and accuses me of being crazy because i was hurt and i can’t let it go. i am by no means perfect but i do want to feel better mentally   i want to shift my focus on the right things but i am having such a hard time sorting things out. my partner loves to do things for others such as our widowed neighbors and i have no problem with this but when there are things to be done in our home; well i guess i have some issues with that. he constantly tells the neighbors/friends how proud he is of me, how hard working i am, and how i am such a good mother to my son. i have asked him not to glorify me to others in front of me because it makes me uncomfortable but he continues to do it. one of the biggest things that just happened is that i voiced to him that i am not happy with my behavior and i cannot go on like this anymore. i need to stop avoiding the obvious and start taking care of the issue. i had told him i was very ashamed of myself for acting the way i have been and with that being said if i don’t do anything about it then i am a weak person and i need more help than i thought. now i know that will be thrown in my face at a later date but i cannot let that stop me from moving forward. less than 24 hours later he is trying to act as though i never said how unhappy i am with myself. again i am left wondering is it him or is it me? i am so confused; however i will address issues one at a time until i find the paved road to travel down. i wish all of you the very best! hello i first need to say. that i am very thankful for all of the posts .i finally do not feel so alone anymore.i guess you could say that all of you in the prior posts have validated my feelings, and that maybe i am not so crazy after all. but to patty right above me .i feel like you were telling my story.right down to wondering if it is all me (because sure thinks so).so i wont go into much into detail because she said it for me (thx) .i have come to the conclusion that in my case its 50/50. we have been together for 16 years and things were ok up until about 2 years ago.it was not perfect for sure but we were always the couple who seemed to get along the best .looking back the change started when we had a string of bad luck (people dying, job changes, car accident) and i needed him emotionally. i have always been real strong, but was falling apart and needed him .but he was not there .it seemed like he was not comprehending what i was saying and had no empathy at all . that pissed me off because i have always helped him through stuff .anyway i started to get and stay angry .until i was always angry .i tried explaing to him how i felt and he took it as critisism then he got angry .and .boy things went bad fast ..as my confidence went south. i became more needy .and i wanted him to do things for me and be there for me .but i guess he was “discarding” me .because i did not do crap for him anymore…so he moved on to other parts of the family to get his needs met. notsexually just like doing things for him , feeling sorry for him .getting them to believe i was going crazy..it was bad ..i truly feel that i was talking to him differently and that helped (what i think he has) his narcissism come out big time..or at least i could see it now…..i dont want divorce. because things werent always like this and i love him…i am hoping that working on me and becoming strong again will help the marriage . (if not at least i will have the confidence to be ok without him).so we will see. a couple of days ago i learned what narcissism was about and so many questions have been answered. i think i see light at the end of the tunnel cause its been a dark lonely road .. i am sorry if i babbled or got off subject too much .but writing this has helped me out a whole lot..so thank you for taking the time for me my name is nelly, my husband of 25 years has npd, just found out 4 years ago by my psychologist, it is a relief to know there is a name for this,i also been through hell and back. my psychologist explained to me its not uncommon for victims to stay with someone with npd they play mind games for there food source, and self gratification she explained to me, it is called cycle of abuse, example your partner one day is loving, nice, caring they make you feel happy, all good for one day or weeks, then he starts to pick on you for small not important things, he of course makes it out to be a big deal, he explodes into a rage, abusing your making you feel worthless and stupid, he could give you the silent treatment, then when feels like it, can carry on like nothing had happened. while you feel sad, depressed and confused, when you confront his actions and tell him how you feel, he says you are starting an argument, no empathy in his part, so the cycle of abuse can go for months or years, like in my case this has been happening to me in all these years, i am reading more information and getting my self esteem back, getting stronger to leave him and start a new chapter in my life. i wish the very best to everyone. i’m now married 24 years in the beginning i was a snuggler in the bed and i will always remember him telling me how badly he needed that. to hold him close. he was driven by his parents to be successful,all of his siblings are successful and dysfunctional and our nieces and nephews are either struggling with love and dysfunctional. i watched my mother in law be overly favorite to one son and downright despise the others because they were “too success full” and acted “hoyty toyty”. when some of her kids would visit with grand kids she would raise the thermostat to 85 degrees and make them so uncomfortable, if someone got up in the middle of the night to lower the temp she was right there to stop it. this was a woman that went to church every day and truly loved jesus with all her heart but she had no real love for her own. my husband is severely narcissistic and i am constantly struggling with it, i know that i have to nurture myself and i come from an extremely loving family and for that i am so grateful. my husband struggles with the death of his parents even though he does not say it,and he has nothing to do with my parents who are 80 and 78. lots of days i wish my husband would just die and join his parents in heaven. he has no use for me except to work our very successful business and it is the money and my own sense of self that i have this work to keep me focused on my customers, and i find solace on spending gobs of money on my own family. with the money i give to charity and spend as much on my family as possible in case i die first. i would love for my husband to love me but he is not capable he loves himself way too much. all he talks about is him. i will stay because the business is half mine and i realize that. i constantly need to feed myself self love to get thru and i have my own family who loves me dearly. all human beings need 3 things: to be loved, to be wanted and to be affirmed. my husband does not want my love anymore he has all the love he needs with himself, because that is what he was raised with. he is a true pity. an old supervisor of mine from many years ago drilled into me that “working people are happy people”. no truer words were ever spoken. if your trapped like i am find your happiness in others and doing for others, if you can be a help to someone else it will help you more. my husband is selfish with time,money,affection,and anytime he see’s me happy he tries to ruin it. how pathetic is that! i now know him for what he is and i still have dreams of leaving him, and when the business sell’s maybe i will. but for now i will persevere because my customers and my job are more important than him. i guess i’m lucky? that way but it sucks. thank you everyone for sharing your experiences on this site. i am astounded at the number of times i would read what someone has written and think, this is exactly how i felt. your heartache resonated with me and i felt it may be beneficial for someone out there to hear my story. i was in a relationship for ten years, married for four to a man who was charismatic, confident, intelligent, gorgeous and who loved me in the ways i wanted to be loved. he was popular and social and we were the very much in love couple who could always be relied on for making everyone laugh and have a good time. we travelled the world together, living overseas and having so many amazing adventures. then life started to get in the way… he went from being a high earning banker to being unemployed and unable to find work for almost two years, then my best friend, my beautiful mum passed away. this presented a very difficult time for us. despite being close to my mum he never once cried. he held me as i cried, but never showed any empathy. through my grief i didnt really register his lack of genuine sadness until later on. i have always been a strong, independent woman… i had never needed him. suddenly. i needed him emotionally and he was absent. as always i made up excuses for him. he came from an extremely dysfunctional family. his mother and father were never married. his father had five sons to four different women in quick succession. he grew up with his mother’s boyfriends attempting to offer some sort of role model. his mother often neglected him, leaving him alone as a small child, he was physically abused when he made mistakes and her expectations of him constantly high. when he was eleven his mother had another son to a man she did marry. this meant the end of his mother’s attention and is the time in history when i believe his foundation for npd was truly formed. then seven months after my mother passed away we fell pregnant, something we had planned and we had been talking about for ten years. even though i knew he was apprehensive i was convinced he would love this child as much as he did me. his manipulation of me was so strong he had me constantly believing what i wanted to… but things went wrong. at 8 weeks we found out our precious little baby had no heartbeat and we would miscarry. this broke my heart, having lost my mum and now my baby. it was at this point things changed. he went from loving me to hating me in the blink of an eye. for two weeks i struggled, knowing i was waiting to lose our baby who i thought (in my head) we both wanted so very much… he made me believe this, even keeping a diary to give to our baby when it arrived. at this time i was suffering from a bowel obstruction and bruised ribs due to a persistent cough. i was the most unwell i had ever been in my life and eventually i broke down in tears and told him i needed him to be there for me, to be strong for me because i wasn’t coping. i had never used these words before. he then turned to me and said he no longer wished to be a husband, a father, or in a monogamous relationship. i just stood there in disbelief. what?! i was at the lowest point in my life and he decides this is the best time to end our relationship and walk out on me. i kept wishing it to be different for months afterwards. i kept asking myself how the man i had loved and adored could be so callous and cruel. he has never once since his announcement asked me how i am. i had to miscarry with our baby on my own. i had to pick up the pieces of my shattered life. i kept asking myself over and over again how could he do this to me? i loved and adored him with all of my heart and soul and i always believed he felt the same. i have done a lot of reading since and spent many hours working with my therapist. i never thought i would need a therapist!!! she has helped me immensely to see the destructive forces of a person who has npd. i can look back and see so many clear signs, but at the time i didn’t even know what npd was. the funny thing is, he knew … and he worked damn hard to mask it and pretend. he told me he pretended to want the baby. he told me he would never love anyone as he had loved me… right up until the last second he was still manipulating me. he tried to destroy me, to savage me like a wild animal until i could no longer function. he couldn’t handle no longer being my only priority in life, he couldn’t handle someone else getting my attention or me ‘needing’ him. then he tried to take me to court to demand his ‘entitlements’   he wanted 50% of everything including my personal jewellery, my superannuation etc… despite not having worked for two years, he wanted half of everything. i had worked two jobs and supported him emotionally. my lawyer settled out of court with him but again it broke my heart. finally, 15 months later we are officially divorced. he has at no point made any attempt to apologise for his actions. he doesn’t speak about what happened between us to any of his friends or family. he has carved a new life which seems to have completely erased my existence. my advice is to get as far away from these people as possible and yet in writing this i know i never could have walked away from him because i loved him… luckily for me he took this decision away from me. we only have one life and i will not allow what he has done to me to be the dominating influence in my future. i want to be truly loved for who i am and i want to share my future with someone who has the same dreams… not someone who is pretending to be the person they think they should be. people with npd are the masters of this and as a victim of one i know how vitally important it is to live each day knowing we are all responsible for our own actions and i did not deserve to be treated like this. we all need to remind ourselves we are important and we matter too. my appreciation and thanks to all of you enlightened and battle scarred people out there. my story is similar…and i have realized i had a npd mother, a 1st husband who was overtly npd ( took me 2 years to get over him) and am now just out of a relationship of 4 years with a cunning npd. he was a singer and i am a medical doctor whom he loved to get his supply from as i am codependent person ( a legacy from my npd mother). the change started when i started questioning his actions and threatened to leave. he used his charm and reassured me and loved me, etc etc, he planned his next supply carefully. she is a bargirl half his age in thailand. and he is australian with a a perceived sense of having money as he throws it around quite freely. i was left ( the bombshell) but he kept on using me for his supply as he needed my money. this is all in the last 3 months, he has only physically left the house 4 weeks ago. there is life after this…. i realized that my reality had been messed with the lies and more lies and of course it was all my fault and that he gave a lot to me. the knowledge of this has given me strength, coupled with feedback from my coach. i am believing in myself now, my own generosity ( yes all of you out there have given lots and lots and you all deserve to be given back to) and most importantly to look to my own past and clean up my codependency. i can feel myself much more which is the first step. i am actively disengaging from him, unfortunately there is the matter of a little doggie whom all the children love whom he is making a emotional pawn and getting some supply from that attention. my hope is that he will go and marry this girl so he will not be in my life anymore..maybe get a new dog for her…sorry it’s a bit laughable because of the unreasonableness of the person. i was also left with 2 std’s and that was what alerted me to the npd. not a word of care or empathy, just for his bargirl ( of course the next supply). he has grandiose ideas and any criticism has branded me as rejecting him. he has stopped singing now as he is too old…no npd’s do not take aging well. i am taking steps to recover and heal from the abuse and victimizing. good luck to all of you in your journey and most importantly, it was not you or your fault! please find out as much as you can about this disorder as that knowledge will make you free. i found this site very useful my npd relationship is different. i’ve known 10+ years, i’d leave my spouse once or kids were raised. now she has health issues and i am balking. i’m part, i admit i don’t want my peers thinking i bailed due to her health issues   anyone who had met her, but doesn’t know her   loves and admires her, and i’ve reinforced this by keeping my true feelings to myself. i also feel she can’t handle the issues by herself and would be damaged by the split. nonetheless, i continue to be unhappy and don’t really know how to proceed. i’d enjoy hearing advice from others with similar experience. on new years eve (2013) when my husband treated me as a piece of garbage in front of his friends, while we were on holiday in the mountains with no means of living from there and i had to apologize to him,i had a shock ( i saw his hate for me, i thought that he loved me) and i new that something was terrible wrong, but i blamed myself, i felt broken and i got into a depression, i just wanted to die, i couldn’t see a way out, how horrible i am that the only person left in my life hates me ( after being married for 5 and1/2 years with him, i got no more friends). i realized that my husband is a narcissist, only in march as i did a course about abuse and more as i researched about the disorder, all made sense, all the lies. the way to recovering, i think that was the hardest thing that i have done in my life. is november, 2013 and i feel free, my sadness had disappeared, i love life again and i ‘ve learned a lot about myself, i came to terms with the abuse suffered in childhood and the fact that the narcissist did this to me and i praised him for that because i was still that child that couldn’t escape and believed that the adults are good and if i will be good that will treat me nice. from all the pieces, i build a stronger me and next step is my divorce, but i know that i will win officially ( in my mind i am already divorced). good luck to all that are dealing with this devil in human form, there is light after this and you can do it. their perfect relationship won’t last..he is trying to get back at you and when he figures out that you do not care he will dump her.. narcissists have to find weak minded individuals that believe everything they are told by them.. stop letting him hurt you, find your own self worth..never let another person determine the way you view yourself..narcissists love to hurt people, that is what they are all about.. i have a son with my narcissistic ex, a son he shows no interest in..but he will whine and cry to any woman that will listen to him..he played his manipulative games for years, i ignored him and got on with my life..i am married to a non narcissistic man now who is good to my son..the narcissist has been forgotten, which bugs him no end..but that is the way the narcissist winds up alone..he is a selfish, spoiled brat who will never change ..he refuses to grow as a person..but, we all choose our lives..choose to be happy, stop thinking about how much he hurt you and start living today.. do not stay with her out of a sense of obligation..you can still help her through the health issues, just have your own place to live..there is never a good time to leave a relationship, do not look for the perfect time it will never come..sacrificing your happiness for hers is only going to make you more unhappy..we all choose our lives…choose to be happy..narcissists have a way of surviving.. i get it. you must constantly remind yourself that this poor woman has no idea! she is going to get dumped and degraded and devalued too. i cannot seem to let go completely and stay away from my abusive ex partner. things officially ended last january and there have been periods of no contact that i’ve been able to maintain the longest being a month, but somehow i keep going back for more abuse and pain. i’ve been seeing a therapist and though it has helped i keep letting him come and go as he pleases. i know he’s been with other people but as early as a week ago he came back and gave me a deadline to be with him 100% and on his terms otherwise he told me to go f myself forever. he has been squatting in a home that has gone into foreclosure and then he told me that he’s staying with a “friend” when i ask him where or who’s he’s staying with he tells me that it’s none of my business since we’re not together, i wasn’t a real partner and there when he needed me, and that he’ll only disclose any information when and if we are back together. he’ll constantly tell me not to contact him and then i don’t and just when i start to feel a bit better he comes back around like he knows i might be a little better and i get hurt and set back all over again. i keep looking at his public postings on google and this past weekend i saw a reply publicly from a female and of course because i’m a glutton for punishment i found postings on another social media site where he is “following” her and she’s “following” him. i deleted the account i had on that site because the only reason i created it was because he asked me to in order to send me things about he wanted to dress me etc. it cuts me right to my core because that’s what he’s doing with her now. i’ve been crying nonstop, cannot focus on work, and am an emotional wreck. i waste so much time trying to figure out why he does these things to me. i’m stuck thinking how happy he is with her and how miserable i am. i also think that she must be better than me and i’m comparing myself to her and how lucky she is because i’m sure he’s being so great and doing all the nice things and events he used to do for me with her now. i don’t understand why he keeps coming back to me if he’s found someone else? why tell me he still loved me and wanted an “us” and then i see the other female? is he with her? did he do all this on purpose for me to see? does he think i’m an idiot and it’s a game to him to see if i’ll keep hanging around? i’m so hurt and feel so unbelievably low. i know i deserve better treatment. i wish he would stop treating me this way. i wish i was stronger and felt better about myself. i wish i understood why he keeps doing this to me. i wish i could just let go and move on like i think he has. any insight would be helpful. here is a good one. same as all of the above really.. however. we went to counseling, and when the counselor told him that “you have a low level of emotional maturity, and trina has a very high level of emotional maturity” lol it was on… as he now puts it “that was the breaking point” the counselor also told him that “trina carries herself very well”. well now..since the counselor thought ill of him, that is my fault, and since the counselor thought highly of me “that is my fault”. omg i love this man, this crazy man with all of my heart and soul, but well as the counselor told me “he is like jekyll and hyde” great!! we split up 20 times…no really twenty. this last time 3 months ago, he said he had just split with this girl who lives in canada..you see he had just left one day and moved to canada to work, asked me to “hang in there”..ummm no! anyway..when he came home saying he was back for good he told me it was over with her. we hung out for a month then he said “i have to go back to work in canada for a couple of weeks” next thing you know he is back here, with her. i found out through the grapevine and text him “i hear your back in town, i can take a hint”..he replied “zelda is here can’t text or call, be back on the 17th for good”. i wrote “your concern for zelda has been noted” his reply “whatever goodbye.” so i let him know a letter would be forthcoming to him and to zelda via her facebook. i wrote it all out. she stayed with him…he and i haven’t spoke. i saw him at the post office the other day, and boy howdy did he get out of there. lol guess he doesn’t want his new girl to get a call. but come to find out…they had been together 6 months, and he told her he had not been with any girl in 4 years since his wife divorced him. i was nothing. oh the joy of loving a narcissistic man. crazy thing…i always told him how it was. his brother even told me don’t ever talk to him like that. he has a history of just hitting people. it didn’t even matter to me, i was one that would not fear him. certainly hope he isn’t planning on killing me. geez! i just have a big mouth and tell it how it is. what a horrible combination. “the love of his life” trina haha narcissists leave their victims with ptsd and stockholm effect. often we become familiar with the cycles of abuse the n’s put us through. our minds struggle to make sense of the hellish experiences & the cognitive dissonance, only compounds this. we love the person we first met; the charming, loving & attentive person. this is what we hold on to & yet the bitter reality is the abusive, self absorbed, cold vampire that has taken that person’s place. we know they are harmful to our emotional & spiritual health, but subconsciously we hang onto the belief, prince charming will soon return. don’t waste another precious moment holding onto this fantasy. they do not change. in fact they only get worse with time. you become their emotional (physical) punchbag, upon which they will project all their inner turmoil, whilst telling you that “you are the crazy one!” it is not you, however. this is the n’s sickness & he needs to ‘split’ you into either ‘good’ or ‘bad’. once you become ‘bad’ in his own misguided perception, it is pretty much a wrap & n goes looking for the next ‘good’ person to idealise & place on a pedestal. what you have to remember though, is that idealising cycle never lasts. the n is destined to go on with devaluing & then discarding the next one too. of course if the n is able, they will keep some useful n supply on standby, testing the waters every now & again with exes or other secondary supply. the painful part is knowing how much emotional investment we paid in; how little we meant to the n & the cruel illusion of it all, amongst other excruciating realisations. naturally we blame ourselves, question our own sanity & believe someone else will fulfil them in ways we failed. well don’t!!! truth is you accommodated way more than most would. you are not crazy, but you may have reacted to a very toxic environment in an understandably distressed & angry manner. how else does one react to an unhealthy situation?? also the new woman will not make n happy for long. she doesn’t know it yet but as you have the opportunity to be free of the cage that the n relationshit is, she is walking into the cage. yes this hurts like nothing else, but at the core of you, lies you in it’s unbreakable form. you just need to peel off all the layers of childhood wounds, negative self beliefs, poor self esteem & the n relationshit baggage, to get to that core. this is an opportunity to heal all those wounds & get to living the life you are truly destined to have. dig deep. you have all the resources you need. take the focus off the n….love yourself x because u feel responsible and want to try to fix it.. hi jeff. i read your post and i’m sorry to hear what you have been through. i’ve read your post 7 months after you wrote it. i hope your ok now. however, i have been through the exact same position with the narcissistic woman in my life. it’s quite a long story as i’m sure yours is. drop me a line if you would like to share your experiences with someone who has been there too. good luck thank you for these posts…..i met a man 18 mths ago, i had just separated from my husband and have 2 kids. this man showered me in compliments ang gifts. i was very vulnerable and lonely, very low self esteem and confidence. he came on overwhelmingly strong and i had to ask him to back off. but then i missed his attention but he also comes across as such a victim. saying he needed me and how awful things were, this had happened that had happened, none of it his fault, so we carried on seeing each other and several times i felt unhappy, he never properly listened to my thoughts, about taking it slowly especially for my kids that we’re struggling with their father not being there. by last christmas things were a bit better and then i fell pregnant! the whole world fell apart and his behaviour was extreme. i have been blamed for everything….he wanted me to have a termination but i couldn’t go through with it, he told me how i didn’t understand what i was doing to him, how much pressure i was putting him and his children under, how much i was hurting him, how he can’t live with it etc etc…(he is muslim, i’m not) he wanted me to call a mosque so i did, i suggested we made a real go of things, move in etc, nothing i suggested was good enough as i quite simply should get rid!! as time went on he wore my emotions down, then one day he decided we should be thinking of our future together, house, marriage etc! if i didn’t respond favourably then i get cutting remarks making me out to be dis respectful and the bad one in all this mess. he is very concerned how he looks to other people, believing he is respected in the community. the story goes on but to cut it short, i had our child and less than 16 weeks after the birth he suddenly cut off his emotions and is with someone else. one week he was saying how much he loves me, the next week he has no feelings anymore! i have been asking him for time and to take things slowly which he now says he is only doing what i asked but i asked that 18 mth ago, i can’t understand how you can go from one extreme to another like that, from gushing his love to barely contacting me. he comes to see the baby and will offer to buy nappies but it all seems an act, he has to be seen to be doing the right thing. in all of this, i have constantly questioned myself and my actions and he has led me to believe it is all my fault. he has put me down i front of others and close doors but he equally demonstrates a nice side and makes out he cares and is providing. he never listens to my feelings instead he cuts me off and turns the conversation to him and his feelings, in fact often the things he says to me, i think are things i should be saying to him, transference…after most conversations, i am left feeling angry, frustrated, upset and unheard. i know the lady he is with now, she is going through a divorce and is a single mum, i’m sure he is now showering her with the compliments he once gave me and making her feel wonderful?! i feel so hurt, rejected and used and yet all i see is his good side and feel like we should give it another go…..especially for the baby, but i know and have talked to his ex wife, he has always been the same, he has a string of failed relationships since her and all with vulnerable women, he is very generous but in incredible debt, he admires his own looks and he uses emotional blackmail on me and his older kids….he can’t be alone and always comes across on one side as the confidant charmer and on the other side he is a victim and can cry at the drop of the hat…..are these the characteristics of a narcissist? hi all   thank you for giving each other some advice and hope. in my case i still believe that we all giving to much of ourselves and to much attention to narcissists in our life. why should our minds struggle to make sense of the hellish experiences? because we are not comfortable with ourselves. take care of your self, set your boundaries, and do what you need to do, be who you are and enjoy your life. stop be depended on n’s and his needs   start 2014 with you first on the list. living with n’s is not the end of the world. they will never change but you can change your attention and your reactions to his/hers crazy behavior. if you have decided to stay with ns   create your rules, if you have decided to leave ns   use ‘no contact’ forever. but stop reading about ns to much and analyzing to much because you will have no time left for yourself. happy new year! jennifer, do you want this partner in your life? as soon as you know what you want from your life you will get better and stronger. you are not together  no contact!  is your answer. time will help… oh my god. exactly what you said about being pursued sought after in the beginning is the total case with me. i am a picky dater looking for a man of character and a man of strong faith that is combatable with mine. i think as we all know it is hard to come by someone who has all the ‘good qualities’ and is not already married. so, when i was introduced to this “knight in shining armor” by my sibling’s co worker (it was the co workers nephew,) i was so happy i finally found a “great guy.” we actually did long distance and we would visit frequently but it took even longer to see the problems. by the time he got me in so deep into the love phase, that’s when his true colors started coming out. he had been married before but the ex left him for his cousin. (i know, very jerry springer…) however, because i knew the family who introduced us, i believed his story on how she left him because he didn’t make enough money and his cousin was extremely wealthy, and she was mean and abusive, blah blah blah. it wasn’t until i caught and confronted him on “liking” many seductive models in bikinis on facebook that he flipped out on me, started calling me his exes name saying “get away; ____insert ex’s name here___ and every terrible degrading thing you could ever call a woman and f me, etc… it was then i started to see i felt bad for his ex, and not him. he painted her as some monster, when really he was the monster in it all. if he was so great and the poor innocent lamb then she wouldn’t have left him. he was the abuser and she probably wouldn’t put up with it. we were in his uncle’s house where he was staying a few nights, he started yelling and slamming doors at me because i confronted him as nice as i possibly could asking why he took my friend and i out and buy bottles of wine and food and didn’t even offer to pay. he got mad because money is obviously something they fought on before and he came from a “poorer” family and eventually told me because i made more, i should pay. (now, i am all about paying and treating my man, but early in a relationship, especially when you see each other not often because you are long distance, in the beginning, he should have paid, or at least let me know he wanted me to pay without ordering everything expensive and telling us to “get whatever we wanted’ when he had no intention of paying for it!) the list went on and on, and i used to judge people that were being manipulated and controlled, and it was a big wake up call. i am sorry i ever did and i realize that they get you so warped into thinking they are god’s gift to people, and they go for the ones that are very trusting and naïve with good hearts and intentions. victims think that everyone “thinks like we do” and that who they were in the beginning is their true self even though later the evidence is no. i kept saying, “but he has so many good qualities, we have fun, he’s smart and a good leader (more like dictator,) he loves god and prays and he thinks he’s good so he must be and i must be the problem to judge him.” what a sicko. i actually prayed and prayed to god telling god: lord, i am not strong enough to break up, please please please have him break up with me first. (i know i should have left him, but i didn’t want to be the bad guy and have him hate me. who cares what he thinks, he is a jerk!) anyways, although the relationship was only a year, it was long enough. also, he saw me as a good opportunity since i was “educated”, had a good job, loyal and he found attractive. however, he found many other women attractive too and when we were together as time went on, he would be stealing glances all the time and would even check out my friends when we were out at night and he would say he was just looking because he couldn’t believe what they were wearing, and that i was always the problem. thank you for sharing everything. it makes more sense now and that these people actually are abusive and real and it is not just our imaginations. my advice is to read the psalms in the bible and pray that god give you wisdom and guidance to deal with the problem. this guy is a loser and he is not happy with her. you need to thank god that you are no longer with him and feel sorry for her that she got sucked into his sick games. he wants a puppet that he can control and 2 things will happen: 1. she will be the puppet and become miserable like you are now down the road or 2. she will get the heck out of there. either way she is not happy in the end. (and guess what, neither is he he will never be satisfied, only temporary highs but nothing will suffice until he gets help.) do not feel your worth is lower because he is going after some other chick. you should actually feel sorry for her and pray for her that god gives her wisdom that she leaves and that any person for that matter does not end up with this idiot. it will not be an easy ride or “clean cut” from him off the bat, but realize and accept the truth of the matter and the truth will set you free. “for freedom christ set us free; so stand firm and do not submit again to the yoke of slavery.” galatians 5:1. hold close to the jesus and he is the source of all happiness. he makes all things new. (if you are not a christian, than at least take the principle of the scripture. i personally like to read and grow of any word of wisdom out there.) god bless and help you. i know how it hurts, i have been there and have finally been set free after 6m of pain after our breakup. omg, mine told me all the time “no one will ever love you more than i do” and “no one will ever know you like i do, i know you from the tip of your head to your toes.” he said this in “cutesy” ways when things were good, so when i was happy, i stored it in my mind like “wow he does know me so well, it’s so wonderful to have this connection.” and yes, as time went on i was the one doing all the paying bc he is changing careers and “if i was all in it for him and not my selfish self then i should be willing to do whatever it takes to be with him.” of course when i met him he portrayed that he made all this money owned an airplane (which turned out to be with 5 other guys but he said it like it was his own personal jet or something) and that the husband should be the provider and wife works only if she wants to, however he was using me and my money to enjoy the lifestyle he wanted. hi all, i am starting to go crazy, i am 29 and been with my wife for 7 years for the last couple of years she has been at times nasty to me, i love her with everything i possibly could we also have a 4 year old boy together… i have a full time job and leave for work at 5:00 and get home at 5:30 i cook dinner every night and help out whenever i am asked.. but i am constantly told that i don’t do enough around the house and when i do she will pick on the way i am doing it… i asked her to leave me a note with the things she wants me to do but she won’t cos she says i should know what needs to be done.. she stays at home with our 4yr old boy and has done so since she was 4 months pregnant… she cracks it if i want to go to bed before she does even tho she wakes up hours after i leave for work… she will be the loving wife for a couple of days a week if step on eggshells… then she just picks on everything i do and talks to me like i’m a piece of shit for for a couple of days and this is a weekly cycle.. i try to surprise her with flowers or a night away for the 2 of us and it doesn’t make any difference… i love my wife so much but she is breaking me down bit by bit.. if she has a couple of drinks she flips out and yells at me and throws stuff around the room but she can drink with her friends and be happy all night… she says mean things to me that she takes back a few days later but then says them again the following week. when i ask her how would she feel if i treated her this way she tells me that she is the perfect wife so i can’t complain to her… this is really troubling me cos all i want is for to be happy and she just can’t seem to do that around me anymore.. she raises her voice at me and our 4 yr old for no reason,,,, and if i sit down next to her and ask what is wrong she walks off and slams the door… these fights can start anywhere any time and for no reason… she has a son from a previous relationship that i treat as my own son he was 3 when we met she speaks to him angrily as we’ll but not the same anger as she does to me.. what has worried more recently is i also have a son from a previous relationship who i see every second weekend and a couple of hours before he comes she gets angry guaranteed every time and is rude him.. he is a polite loving boy and she will belittle him and make him cry he is starting to not want to come due to this her son tells her that she is being mean to my son and she shrugs it off and says he is disrespectful when he is not being like that at all…. i come home from work and tell her about my day if it sounds like have a good day at work she tells how shit her day was and if i say i had a bad day at work she turns into a debate over who had the harder day all i’m trying to do is communicate with her and tell her about my day…. it feels like sometimes she hates me…. if she goes out someone always try’s to kiss her cos she flirts with guys so much but says she is just being herself if that is so why is she so angry and rude towards i’m confused s there something i am missing or not doing right as a husband cos my self esteem is shrinking hey just a message to the moderator i posted a message just before and put my email down wrong sorry i have put the correct one there now in my opinion, this article seriously, almost irresponsibly, downplays the danger of being in a relationship with a narcissist. just look at the comments look at the amount of pain poured out in these words! these people won’t just piss you off or sadden you. they will destroy your life. there’s no “how to” have a relationship with a true narcissist except   don’t. changing your half of the dynamic will do absolutely nothing to cause them to change theirs, because they feel you are responsible for all the problems. what it will do, if it’s *true* change, is get you the heck out of there, and that’s what you need. the article also overplays the prospect of cure for narcissists. true narcissists *never* admit that they are it’s always someone else who is to blame. this is why in the mental health field, it is generally held that the prognosis for cure for narcissistic personality disorder is very poor. if you’re in a relationship with a narcissist, or have been in one and still hurt, run, don’t walk to this site: www.melanietoniaevans.com . yes, she’s selling something, but there’s a wealth of info there for free. i made very good use of it in my own education/healing re narcissism (one parent, one ex). these are totally characteristics of a narcissist. including the “love them and leave them” thing. what happens is that they are totally driven by a need for narcissistic supply, not by love. the moment you cease to be that to them for whatever reason, or start to come with big drawbacks (like a child for him to be responsible for) they turn to someone else and it’s as if you never existed. go that? he does not love you, else he wouldn’t have done that. he does not love you because narcissists are incapable of love. do not do not do not give it another go with this guy. he will not change. he is mentally ill in a way that prevents him from ever admitting it. he will just give you more grief, and hurt your children at the same time. cut him out of your life and find someone decent. you’re incorrect that you see only his good side, because you’ve shown us his bad side now pay attention to your own observations 🙂 good luck! jennifer, he is doing this because he is mentally ill. as long as you stay in denial that he is mentally ill and expect normal behaviour out of him, you’re going to be baffled and devastated. what he is doing is coming to you for narcissistic supply the knowledge that he is affecting someone. that can include hurting you. there’s a case i read about of a narcissist whose girlfriend finally committed suicide because of how he treated her. he was *proud* of it… took it as evidence of how important he was! in other words, her suicide was narcissistic supply to him. that’s how sick these people can be. you need to understand the mindset. their true self esteem is so bad that they will even resort to torturing a person so as to make themselves big in that person’s world, and so give themselves a sense of importance. if you just keep reminding yourself of this, you’ll see through this guy enough to ditch him. by ordering you not to contact him, he’s playing you… because it’s what you really should do. permanently. don’t worry that he and his new squeeze are happy. you know he’s a liar. she is headed for your fate. what you must do is look after and concentrate on you your happiness, your rights, your life. i suggest therapy as i think you need it, both for immediate support and overall healing. also try this site   www.melanietoniaevans.com . good luck and all blessings to you! no. i quote you: “when i would even suggest that there is a problem, she rejects this and turns it around.” are you paying attention to the truth you yourself wrote here? you’re free. forget her and count your blessings look at some of the other commenters here, how trapped they are. best of luck finding someone truly loving 🙂 what you need to do to understand why this happened to you is 1) study narcissism learn how they think and what they do  2) accept the magnitude of the abuse that has been inflicted and 3) delve into yourself enough to understand why you let him into your life. (i say with certainty that there were red flags you ignored because there always are.) and these things all go together. i suggest www.melanietoniaevans.com   wealth of info on both there. good luck! jeff, go to this website   melanietoniaevans   read all the free info and then share it plus what you’ve learned about yourself to ms. right. short version of why you are drawn back: you haven’t fully accepted that your narc ex is not normal and will never live up to your expectations of normal behaviour. when you do all will be well with ms. right 🙂 good luck! no, you’re not insane. what’s happening is that you are imagining that he and this other woman are having the dream relationship you always wanted with him and he probably promised you at the start. you can stop imagining now. they won’t. you know him, how he thinks and feels. he is not capable of love, only of faking it short term. imagine them together for years, and be realistic. what are the chances that she won’t end up feeling like an appliance? don’t worry about the kids, either. they know which parent is and was always there for them. now put your heart back together and stop feeling like shit you don’t deserve it. good luck! i depended on my friends. they got me through, bless them! you say *almost* no social network why do i suspect that he worked to isolate you? but that still means you’ve got some degree of it. use it, and expand it. narcissists are unfulfillable, ultimately that’s why you wished, hoped and fought for it futilely for so long. now some other poor woman is going to have that problem. don’t be scared she’ll be perfect for him, feel sorry for her. no one is perfect enough for a narcissist. oh and people with npd don’t worry that they have npd. you don’t. best wishes! yes, there is something you are missing. she’s abusive, mentally ill, not capable of a loving relationship and not able to accept the love you are giving her. she is also abusive to the kids, and damaging them emotionally. you have to accept the truth of all this. when you do, you’ll see exactly what to do. good luck!! p.s.   it’s not you. hi karen, myself and my family have been and are still in the grips of a narcicistic bastard. he was divorced from my daughter for over a year now, but shares custody with their 7 year old son. the poor child is so emotionally abused by him, it breaks my heart to see it. his father fits the entire description of a narcicist to a tee. he accuses us (grammie and grampa) of horrendous terrible things. we love our grandson so much. he threatens legal action all the time, and has absolutely no basis for anything. one of the problems is that he and his family are affluent, have much money. we are not, for if we were, we could hire a good lawyer and fight for full custody. i have been driven to physc. therapy to help cope. i am often very driven to tears by him, and my nickname for him is “satan on earth”. no matter how hard i try to understand him, i just can’t. my daughter (his ex wife) has to deal with him regularly. i could go on and on here about how miserable this man has made me and my family, but i am just getting angrier thinking about him. he is so horrible. hello   i wanted to add to the above note. the website mentioned above has been tremendously helpful in giving me the knowledge and strength to leave the abusive narssistic man i have been involved with for almost 10 years. anyone needing help and answers to the “whys” will find it on melanie’s website. hi cynthia: while i know a lot about narcissism, i am not a lawyer or child welfare expert. however my thought here is (assuming you live in the usa) to approach child protective services and ask what can be done. if cps is anything like the children’s aid society (same function) in canada, where i am, they offer support as well as removal of kids from dangerous homes. calling them is free, and if the abuse is sufficiently severe that they feel he’s in danger, your daughter could end up with 100% custody for free. good luck! hi karen, im 21 and i have been dating a man i met at college who i diagnosed as a narcissist. theres no doubt in my mind he isnt. i met him last year at my school and he swept me off my feet. low and behold i started noticing patterns of cheating and lying behavior. he made himself more of what he was made out to be and he manipulated me and my mind in the worst way possible. i wasnt strong enough to admit i was being cheated on and mistreated. it took me getting pregnant and going through an a abortion for me to realize he was no good. we dated for a few months before i was contacted by another women who hewas involved with. the lady warned me to stay away from him because she was manipulated by him for years. she even told me she was pregnant by him. she also gave me numbers to even more women he was involved with. i spoke to all the women and they all said the same thing.he was a manipulator. sadly, some of the women still go back for more hurt. but i had no room to judge at the time because after i confronted him about the phone calls i had with the other women he got upset and accused me of being a horrible person. he made me feel bad about him getting caught and we broke up….a few months later he eased his way backin my life and i gave in. the cycle repeated itself when i gave in. come to find out he was a serial cheater and got several women pregnant and talked all of us into getting abortions. what was even more appalling was that he made me believe that this was the first time he ever had to deal with something so devastating. (how mentally sick can someone be to sit in an abortion clinic with their girl and act like he just didnt go through the same thing months ago with another women he was with)…….. i spoke to one of the women he was involved with and she felt like she was superior to all of the rest of women he was with. she said “im not going anywhere”… i begged and pleaded for my boyfriend to spend time with me. there were times i even cried for his attention. he would get mad and somehow make it about him and how he feels. at this point i think im struggling with the fact that i thought he really loved me. he made it seem so surreal even though i wasnt the only one. im also struggling with the fact that why wasnt i good enough to stay faithful to? what do the other women have that i dont have? whats caused him to do this to me? and the biggest question is how do i move forward? one thing i can say is i am happy i was able to break away from the relationship by choice and also by force before i wasted anymore time like the other women who’ve been with him for years. its still a hard process to get over because i know my lovefor him was real 🙁 i have been dating a man i met at college who i diagnosed as a narcissist. theres no doubt in my mind he isnt. i met him last year at my school and he swept me off my feet. low and behold i started noticing patterns of cheating and lying behavior. he made himself more of what he was made out to be and he manipulated me and my mind in the worst way possible. i wasnt strong enough to admit i was being cheated on and mistreated. it took me getting pregnant and going through an a abortion for me to realize he was no good. we dated for a few months before i was contacted by another women who hewas involved with. the lady warned me to stay away from him because she was manipulated by him for years. she even told me she was pregnant by him. she also gave me numbers to even more women he was involved with. i spoke to all the women and they all said the same thing.he was a manipulator. sadly, some of the women still go back for more hurt. but i had no room to judge at the time because after i confronted him about the phone calls i had with the other women he got upset and accused me of being a horrible person. he made me feel bad about him getting caught and we broke up….a few months later he eased his way backin my life and i gave in. the cycle repeated itself when i gave in. come to find out he was a serial cheater and got several women pregnant and talked all of us into getting abortions. what was even more appalling was that he made me believe that this was the first time he ever had to deal with something so devastating. (how mentally sick can someone be to sit in an abortion clinic with their girl and act like he just didnt go through the same thing months ago with another women he was with)…….. i spoke to one of the women he was involved with and she felt like she was superior to all of the rest of women he was with. she said “im not going anywhere”… i begged and pleaded for my boyfriend to spend time with me. there were times i even cried for his attention. he would get mad and somehow make it about him and how he feels. at this point i think im struggling with the fact that i thought he really loved me. he made it seem so surreal even though i wasnt the only one. im also struggling with the fact that why wasnt i good enough to stay faithful to? what do the other women have that i dont have? whats caused him to do this to me? and the biggest question is how do i move forward? one thing i can say is i am happy i was able to break away from the relationship by choice and also by force before i wasted anymore time like the other women who’ve been with him for years. its still a hard process to get over because i know my lovefor him was real so i have been married two years to a man with npd. for the last year he has treated me horribly. i just found out on dec. 30 that my husband has been having an affair with one of his co workers. i confronted him and he blamed me saying that i had given him a look of hate over a year ago and he couldn’t get past it. then he tells me lie after lie that he broke it off with her. we decided to separate but i’m not understanding why he doesn’t go live with his new girlfriend that he’s in love with. after i found out more info regarding the affair it angered me. so i texted him letting him know that i know he’s not in love with me and that he just needs to tell me the truth. my question is will this anger him more that i’m telling him it’s over! i have two little girls and he’s still in my house for another 5 days. do i have to worry that he will try something or because i walked away he will just discard our relationship and move on with his new girlfriend? will he ever be able to tell me the truth or should i just leave it alone? hi karen, im 21 and i have been dating a man i met at college who i diagnosed as a narcissist. theres no doubt in my mind he isnt. i met him last year at my school and he swept me off my feet. low and behold i started noticing patterns of cheating and lying behavior. he made himself more of what he was made out to be and he manipulated me and my mind in the worst way possible. i wasnt strong enough to admit i was being cheated on and mistreated. it took me getting pregnant and going through an a abortion for me to realize he was no good. we dated for a few months before i was contacted by another women who hewas involved with. the lady warned me to stay away from him because she was manipulated by him for years. she even told me she was pregnant by him. she also gave me numbers to even more women he was involved with. i spoke to all the women and they all said the same thing.he was a manipulator. sadly, some of the women still go back for more hurt. but i had no room to judge at the time because after i confronted him about the phone calls i had with the other women he got upset and accused me of being a horrible person. he made me feel bad about him getting caught and we broke up….a few months later he eased his way backin my life and i gave in. the cycle repeated itself when i gave in. come to find out he was a serial cheater and got several women pregnant and talked all of us into getting abortions. what was even more appalling was that he made me believe that this was the first time he ever had to deal with something so devastating. (how mentally sick can someone be to sit in an abortion clinic with their girl and act like he just didnt go through the same thing months ago with another women he was with)…….. i spoke to one of the women he was involved with and she felt like she was superior to all of the rest of women he was with. she said “im not going anywhere”… i begged and pleaded for my boyfriend to spend time with me. there were times i even cried for his attention. he would get mad and somehow make it about him and how he feels. at this point i think im struggling with the fact that i thought he really loved me. he made it seem so surreal even though i wasnt the only one. im also struggling with the fact that why wasnt i good enough to stay faithful to? what do the other women have that i dont have? whats caused him to do this to me? and the biggest question is how do i move forward? one thing i can say is i am happy i was able to break away from the relationship by choice and also by force before i wasted anymore time like the other women who’ve been with him for years. its still a hard process to get over because i know my lovefor him was real 🙁 hi everyone i am just writing, just trying to heal and find this all very helpful. i met my boyfriend because he was my clarinet instructor. he was so nice, kind. he was very quiet and gentle and i just loved it. we started dating, and he was still a very nice thoughtful man and i just loved it. i had had some bad experiences earlier in my life with men and was really enjoying the niceness, the gentleness provided in this relationship. suddenly overnight it changed. it changed because he said i was in need of mental health treatment. he basically told me that he was going to hang in there for me, but sometimes he was just getting fed up. i was head over heels when he dropped this bomb. this went on for several months where he pathologized me so bad. i saw a counselor who continuously convinced me to “get out.” this guy said he couldn’t make love to me because i do not know how to love and because i am not ready for intimacy because i confuse sex and affection. he called me needy, dependent, manipulative, attention seeking, damaged. i am still trying to figure all this out. he would go days wtih not contacting me, take breaks from me because he said i stressed him out. refused to make holiday plans. then one day he would just show up as nice as ever and boom, i had my guy back. unfortuniately it didn’t last for long. every day he made it clear that he knew i was sick and that he was going to try and hang in there for me but he didn’t know if he could. he told me no one else will ever love me either. he told me so many negative things about myself, that in those six months i got so confused. i ended it six weeks ago and have not contacted him at all. somedays i want so badly to, but i stop myself. because i know i will be going back for more of the same. it is the most hurtful thing i have ever been through. it was like mind manipulation and the worst was the way i would go to kiss him and he would just turn his face, after we kissed so passionately in the beginning. the way he would pretend we were going to make love and then he would just stop. he told me i did not inspire him. it is hard to get through. i guess it just takes time. i still call myself sick and crazy but not like i used to. they don’t change, but you will. not all these changes will be for the good. in fact if “good” comes into your life they will sabotouge it pretending to be all you need, but just long enough to get you to give up all the ground you have gained. if you start to paint, they will be supportive till you buy the supplies, set up a studio and start to get recognition. then they will stop doing any of the household “chores” leaving you to do yours and theirs. guess what? no time to paint. so you give up painting. if you try and find an alternative to “retail theraphy” and join a club again they are very supportive and even try and befriend your fellow club members. they “ingrain” themselves and you think great, he is supporting me for a change. soon they will have something bad to say about all the people behind their backs, and will be “thrilled” if you have some “issues” with the other members and share. he will keep at this “? sabotouge till you are no longer able to be happy or feel “stupid” for going to the club or have “issues” with his pulling loyalities away from you. of course, as soon as you table all you enjoy out of life, he will then proceed to commandeer all the free time he has to exclude you from his life, and will then call you “mean and not supportive”. if you stop to realize what the heck is going on and confront him, watch “nice guy” turn into a monster, so now you have given up so much, he can go back to berating you for “having no friends or hobbies”. and they are sure to remind you that you have difficulty following through or keeping friends. one day you wake up to this passive aggressive bs, and keep doing your thing in spite of his attempts to sabotouge you. suddenly all hell breaks loose and he wages a vicious campaign everywhere against you, walks out and leaves you with everything to do and deal. (not that he did all that much but be a mouth with legs anyway). yep, cycle of abuse to keep you where he needs you, isolated with only his “abuse” for company. you try harder to understand him and his words, while not seeing the actions of destruction that counter act his words. he is good at this, making you guilty. isolating you then rejecting you. finallly when some major “he should understand and support me” event like a death, or other issue that demands your attention occurs and suddenly he is not there for you, and a light bulb goes off, he was never really there for you, but always about him and his needs. it sucks to be hit with what you couldn’t ever make better or figure out. he isn’t there at all but some actor in human skin was. the shock of the “real” is very hard to overcome. it is devastating, in light of all you have worked at or gave up for him, and there is little you left. hurts beyond belief. but the truth is there is no co dependancy here, as in reality you were given no choices as they are very adept at sabotouge. i hate it when i read we need them, we really don’t and begin to see it, but they draw everyone and everything in to marshall forces that prohibit you (damage to others or finances) from any self affirming actions with punishment to you and to others or things you care about. now the real hell of seeing what they are begins, to save you destroys someone else or something else and it is usually a “no win” anywhere you can see. this is the abusive psychology. save yourself hurt something you love. horrendously “guilt ridden” choices. this is how the narc entraps. no one volunteers for this. that is like saying a fly is co dependant to the venus fly trap that will kill him, nope it is a trick and a trap. the fly only had one chance to “learn” to avoid the plant that traps. by the time he “gets it” it is kinda too late. no one is co dependant anything, just tricked and trapped, and it happens to millions of perfectly normal functioning people all the time…like pt barnum says, “a sucker is born every minute”. that trust and unawares is nectar to these people. he will never tell you the truth. don’t hang onto the hope that he will. *you* know the truth, and that’s good enough. narcissists and certain other personality disordered people make a mockery of the notion of consensus reality. they live to lie and they will never stop no matter how desperately you yearn for them too. the nice guy who you thought you had consensus reality with does not exist, except as a construct he carefully created in your mind. that’s all it is. let it go. just accept that you’ll never get truth out of him, and make it clear, however many times you have to, that it’s over. then put him behind you completely. you are not sick and crazy at all. you were just under the influence of someone who was. we feel an obligation to listen to the opinions of those we love, and that’s what narcissists and other types of abusers play on. this man is addicted to performing mind f***s. one of the things that narcissists do is projection: saying that *you* have all *their* negative qualities. they take it to an extreme. that’s where all his “information” about your supposed mental health problems came from. he’d be saying the same to anyone. good luck and whatever you do, don’t give in to the temptation to contact him. you have to totally accept that your impression of him was a complete myth and let go the hopes you have based on that. best wishes for finding a man who truly does love you! i have been married to an npd for almost 45 years. i finally ran from him after 25 years but have not been able to divorce. i can’t tell you how many years of therapy i went through due to his constant need to put and keep me down. i could never do anything right, or was never good enough. i could write my own book. his constant lack of empathy and compassion for me and my 3 sons left me deeply scarred with a feeling that i was crazy, and actually was given some nasty mental health diagnosis. i still fight that label as i truly began to believe it, and the scars haven’t fully faded away. don’t try and stay. he has you deep in his grip. i related to many posts here but the end of yours struck me to the core. stop being sorry for your feelings, that is the abuse screaming out. after all these years i still take pause when i feel “sorry” for something i did or said. you will never move on being sorry for your life. don’t make my mistake because he will never let go of his need for power over you. there are good people out there that you will seldom have to say that you are “sorry” for babbling or being too emotional. in time you may find yourself thinking and saying thank you for loving “me”, i really am a valuable viable person. my husband’s favorite phrase is “if i were you i’d…….” we aren’t them and are entitled to be ourselves despite our perceived flaws. hi, i just broke up (for 3rd time) with my partner of a yr and a half, never really knew what a narcissist was until i started googling however i believe this may be him, i read some stories and think no he isn’t that bad however he did say the right things at right time, was very insecure and often reacted to criticism very bad! he didn’t stop me seeing friends or anything tho, i’m really confused about the whole thing, i just know that i spent the relationship a bit on eggshells and was stressed out a lot!?? i am missing him terribly but kno he won’t change thank you so much for what you said. you have just answered everything about this useless 15 year relationship i have been a victim of. he is also an alcoholic, did i mention mean? he hes controlled my life, stopped me from having friends and family, i hate this sob! i’m outta here… taking control of your life is very hard thing to do. but it is easier to keep telling that someone is making you unhappy or crazy. if you are living with n than stop and ask yourself: what do you want? option 1: stay with n. steps to take: remember your hobbies, keep your boundaries strong, always ask yourself ‘who i am’, check how realistic the decisions and plans of the n, always stay caring, loving, and kind because this is who you are. result: commitment, hard work, ups and downs, an outside vision of ‘happiness.’ option 2: leave n. steps to take: take time to get ready and leave with no contact (read melanie tonia evans). result: freedom of your soul, financial straggle, difficulty staying with no contact, life in your eyes. have you made your choice? hi all just thought i would get my experience down in black and white to help me move on, not asking for solutions or advice as such but maybe someone out there knows the right thing to say   feel free if so 🙂 i was with my ex for 4 years   first 18   20 months fantastic, especially the first 6 months, such a sweet, quiet,guy   good looking and charming (but not over the top extrovert)   i was extremely together and independent when we met, with a big circle of freinds, but definitely ready to jump in with both feet! and up til the point when we moved in together after 6 months it was really great…with hindsight there were red flags popping up all over the place but everyone here has probably rationalised all types of behaviour through ‘wishful thinking’…but you know i never expected anyone to be perfect, and loved him more for it…he had told me that he had been cheated on in the past and was devastated by it   loved his openess and honesty and felt ‘well he’d never do that then   knows how it feels’ not that i have ever been the jealous or irrational type.. somehow he managed to make me feel that he wanted us to spend loads of time together but at the same time make me feel bad for wanting the same, while subtly disapproving if i went out for a couple of drinks with freinds …. after we moved in together while he was still the same in many ways he became distant in the bedroom and less affectionate overall, we got a dog together and had lots of fun and a tough learning curve, and i thought maybe his changes in behaviour / attitude were just part of the natural progress of a relationship as you move past the passion stage.. he never had any spare money, hated his job etc so i put alot down to this… anyway, long story short after about two & a half years i felt he was becoming especially moody and distant and one day he said ‘it’s not working’ didn’t say why, didn’t want to talk about it, didn’t want to work on it and that he ‘should have said something ages ago’ nothing hurts quite like that!! he then got seriously offended when i tore up a gift voucher he had given me (no empathy, didn’t get why i may be upset)…he said there was no one else but turns out he had been emailing a woman, pretending he was single with a dog, and using our dog as a flirting tool!! anyway, due to financial circumstances (his) and dog care we ended up living together seperately for a long time, i asked him not to date women while living there, (he could move out anytime he wanted)…but he still did didn’t care that it broke my heart….i know i should have been stronger, but we were still spending so much time together, like a couple but not, got on great etc and of course i still loved him, helped him out financially and supported him with his new business etc (it was only with hindsight i realised he was keeping me in this limbo)…he wanted freedom but had a platonic wife who was smitten (me) and didn’t want his finances to suffer…so when he met an old aquiantance last feb, there was his way out…her family are pretty well off, and they moved intogether within about 6 weeks (new place with cheaper rent) (he’s very impulsive and persuasive so i wasn’t surprised   had dinner here with me one night and moved in with her the next, replicating the same life exactly. i kept the dog 🙂 he then ‘discarded’ me completely with no recognition of the time we had spent together or the support i had given him, turned his back on the dog (who adored him), and as if we had been seperated for years! anyway during this time i was able to establish that he had npd traits and had been controlling me totally. i have been getting on with life and getting over him etc, he shows no interest in my life but expects me to be happy for him and decided to send me a picture of their baby scan on new years day!! saying ‘happy new year’   yep she’s pregnant, 3 months gone so within 6 months of the relationship starting   this would be bad enough, but i am now 45 (he is 41) and have probably missed my chance to have kids   i know i only have myself to blame for letting him control me but it just hurts how he has come out of this completely unscathed, at the top of his game, with a pregnant girlfreind (having cheated, shown no mercy and still owing me £££s) and i feel that i have lost a lot (my career has been affected by decisions made for his benefit, and also due to the fact i have to accomodate my gorgeous doggy) and i only exist to him for gloating purposes…i guess what makes it worse is that ultimately i created this situation by letting him treat me the way he did, and still hoping we would stay together…can’t do much about my biology though… sorry for the long story!! but i already feel better for putting in down in writing   therapy of a kind thanks for reading if youve made it this far 🙂 xx after 20 years together he left do to my depression…he made me feel so bad about myself, i was never enough. it has been 5 years since he left an i am still obsessed with him want him back because he was my lifes dream…i know he is not healthy for me mentally, but i love him. maybe i’m the narcissist or maybe we both are. he an i have hooked up recently an i had such hopes of reconciling yet he is with other women, only chooses to be with me sometimes. he has such confidents in himself an women are all over him. i am back to feeling like a loser. why cant i let this man go?? dude…i hear ya…my n girl destroyed my self esteem and confidence…little by little she picked away at me…and i kept going back…i couldn’t understand it…i was so convinced that we were made for each other since she mirrored everything in my life of interest…i finally managed to break away but i will say i have never been so hurt and depressed over a relationship…and to make matters worse…these people just don’t care… sometimes when i’m with him i think i don’t want him, but yet i don’t want anyone else to have him because he was mine. we were married for 20 years. he says i manipulate…so maybe i am the narcissist. you just described my husband thank you to everyone for sharing you experiences! i only just started researching this disorder and have to say that i now feel so much better about myself as a person and have found some answers as to why my (short lived) relationship failed. i can only imagine the pain that some of you must have felt after a number of years with a narc! my relationship lasted only two months and i was still traumatised when it ended! this was one of the reasons for my pain. i have recovered from failed relationships before in positive ways and have often remained friends with my exs. i could not understand why i felt so floored over a relationship that lasted so short a time. i read a fantastic article which explained that the grief is enhanced because you are mourning a person that didn’t ever truly exist. so many of my friends told me, “move on,” “she’s crazy” etc but the pain continued. it is hard for someone who has not experienced it to feel the trauma caused by somebody saying “i love you” and doting on you, then literally two days later being cruel, cold and defensive. everything in my relationship was perfect until she bailed on my birthday without so much as a phone call. when i tried to talk to her on the phone, she made excuses that she was sick, tired etc….the more patient i was, the more defensive she became. everytime i tried to ask if something was wrong, i was met with hostility. it took two weeks of mind games and silent treatment before i had to ask via sms if she wanted to end the relationship….(sending that text felt like shooting myself in the head, but was the only way to get the answer i knew was inevitable.) looking back, all i can get comfort from was knowing that i did not try to punish her or “win”, but it still hurt so much knowing that she didn’t give a shit. i felt like perhaps i was someone who had a personality that would only be enjoyable for short amounts of time and then i would irritate people and thus would subsequently never find love with anyone. i can understand why people go back to narcs, because i think that most mature functional adults learn to be self critical. i know that i always found myself thinking, “did i do something wrong?” “maybe i missed something crucial that, if i could fix, would make the relationship the way it was?” not true. i was caught out again months later when i messaged her telling her that i missed her. this was the wrong thing to do as i believe it fed her need to be needed and she kept responding with follow on messages, then asked if i wanted to meet in person…she then said she was buys after mentioning it! burned. weeks later, she called me and asked again. i agreed to meet her. i messaged her that morning to confirm and was ignored. burned again. i feel the pain of all of you and do not wish to compare my pain with yours…just hope that sharing my story might resonate with somebody as many of yours have resonated with me. understanding about this disorder has made me feel much better about myself as a person and to reassure myself that i can find love…it just takes the ability to trust yourself….next time i will listen to the warning bells! hope this helped somebody and good luck to everyone…onwards and upwards friends! i agree with what karen said. i had a similar experience where my ex would project her own imperfections onto me. she would act aloof and distant…then ask “are you ok?”….or would say things like “i like the way you don’t lecture me, you just talk to me”…then she would lecture me about the smallest things, talking down to me like i was a child. these people do perform mind f*cks. read the other comments and see the patterns! you seem pretty self reflective and able to analyse yourself…(which i think is healthy)…don’t blame yourself! move on and be proud of who you are! jeff/edward, this is exactly what i just/am going through and you are spot on in your comments. they don’t care who they hurt as long as they get what they want…….. and you can’t explain why you keep wanting to go back or are drawn to that person. it is beyond frustrating. i too had a nacissitic husband of 20 years then dated a narcissist after my divorce before i figured out what a narcissist is. they can be very charming. but the reason people keep going back to someone they know is wrong for them is oxytocin. this is a chemical the brain releases that makes us have a bond with a person. there are times a person flooded with oxytocin: while giving birth, nursing a child and during sexual relations. oxytocin doesn’t discern morals but it does create a dependancy of sorts to a person. the only way to break that oxytocin bond is to stay away from that person, don’t talk to them, don’t even look at pictures of them . . . etc. you have to go cold turkey. don’t even take their phone calls or respond to their texts. they only want to fill their narcissistic need and do not care about you. you solely exist to meet their needs and when you are not filling their cup they quickly move on to someone who will. you can be sure they will come back to test to see if you will fill their cup again but will not accept responsibility for any wrong doing. run, don’t walk, away from these types of people. research oxytocin and realize the science behind the attraction. you don’t truly miss the person you miss the oxytocin bond and having someone there. the father of my kid is a total narcissist. but i’m torn, because i genuinely do love him. i see the good in him too but he is very mean to me. he is constantly putting me down about my appearance, my intelligence my past everything you can imagine. i get ripped to shreds every day here about something and am relentlessly maligned for every slight misstep or just for not doing things exactly his way at all times. he has zero concern for the emotional pain he causes me, the tears or the anguish in my face has never had any impact on him. it’s like he’s scarred and so emotionally guarded and unresponsive (other than being able to display rage) that he literally cannot feel even if he tried, any empathy or sympathy for me. he never fails to remind me of how imperfect i am and how little i fit his desired image as his child’s mother. sad, sad and more sad. i know this behavior from him to me is mostly projections from his own inner feelings of worthlessness, he’s just trying to drag me down with him. i’m not falling for it but i’m really tired of it i just don’t want to battle him over custody, because i know he will try to screw me as royally as he can :/. i am only just learning about this disorder and it fits my ex husband and our truly disfuntional marriage of 15 years. i dont know to this day how i married him and why i stayed that long. i knew there were signs but then i got pregnant at 19 and he promised the world and then slowly destroyed it. obsessive, controlling, manipulative, i had no defense   i was always wrong. after years of therapy, i got the courage to leave almost 2 years ago but i am still slowly untangling myself from him. he has now started on our children and while i do everything i can to sheild them, his need for validation and perfection is destroying and i can see it affecting them. i thought i was going mad, that i was a horrible person…..reading these posts shows me that i wasnt going crazy, that my instincts were right and that im not alone. i also believe my sister suffers from this. im just hoping that i got out early enough for my childrens sake. i am in a new r/ship now and i am still on heightened alert. i knew some thing was wrong for years, i will not make that same mistake again. hi, everybody i feel i am living with one right now we are married its only been 9 months but its been the terrible 9 months though i feel i still love him and really want this relation to work is there anyway to save this marriage of mine please please help me with ur suggestions you took the words right out my mouth. are stories are the exact same right down to the feelings. its only been a month and im still affected by this. i go back and forth. as i read your wonderfully insightful post   i am saying, ‘yes! my ex could not trust. absolutely not. he was suspicious of my every move and motive. however, at the same time, he was so caring or at least he was able, masterfully, to make it look that way. and that’s where i get confused. he was very gregarious, he made everyone laugh, he had a beautiful body and was very handsome but had rather a small penis and was so insecure about it that he referred to his member constantly. it was the source of daily conversation. it was my job to prop him up. sex was very controlling. he had to be on top. he was in a difficult divorce and took absolutely not one iota of support or advice from me and wound up without the ability to see his girls. it was devastating to him   and completely constructed by him. he would speak endlessly about how caring he was…i’ll never forget, ‘i’m so caring, too caring!’… yet when i was in the hospital he laughed at my difficulty and made jokes about not letting them use needles on me. (contamination). then he would turn around and tell me how pretty i was, and how fit, and what a great person i was, and how much he admired and respected me. and the next week we would be in a social gathering, and once a friend of his said something quite sexually explicit about me to him, he told me afterward what was said, but hadn’t set his friend straight in the moment, a great sign of disrespect to me. i should have let him go then. but because he told me how great i was and he was so beautiful to look at, i stayed. who’s the narcissist? me or him? or are we both? when he broke up with me he would not tell me why, only that he realized he could not make a life with me. within the month he was with a new woman, much younger than me. it sent me reeling for months. i felt like i didn’t belong on the planet. it was awful, trying to discern what was mine and what was his, and how i had fallen into this cycle and what i needed to do to become aware so it would never happen again. i think the key for me is to remain true to myself. as soon as i see that there is behavior that doesn’t sustain or support, question compassionately and see what happens. if the outcome is deeper intimacy = great, if it creates havoc and a moving away from = then it’s out of bounds and time to move on. hi all, i think i’m a narcissist, miss wink i am very sorry you’ve gone through this, it makes me sad becuase i can see how i treat my wife the same way, its like putting a mirror in my face, i’m so afraid to being wrong, being naive that its my way or no way because i’d rather be safe, ( even when i’m wrong in controling the situation) (her), i have this huge need deep within just to let her be, but its just so hard for me, i get to that point then the fear just takes control and i step back. i want her to be happy, but i’m afraid of just letting her be, i try to control everything and fight so hard to make things happen my way, i realized that i only show care for her when she is complying with my ways, we have a daughter and i think she is learing to be like me as well through my actions, i know i’m talking about my self but in no way am i feeling sorry for me, i just dont want to hurt my wife anymore and i just dont want to feel fear anymore. i just want to let her be, who she is, who i fell in love with, and i am so afraid i’ll loose her if i give up my control. thank you for sharing your story. i recently went back to my n for 4 months it was an emotional affair only, he once again proclaimed of his undying love for me, his soul mate, love of his life. stated he couldn’t wait to move back to his former home (where i reside) to reunite. he had plans to relive the past awesome relationship we once had. but then changed his mind and ended the relationship immediately stating he had made a big mistake. i once again went into my n coma anxiety, depression and lethargy. i’m feeling better now that i realize it was all a hoax everything i experienced with him, so much easier to accept now that i know it was all a total waste of my time. i’m able now to disregard the relationship taking only what i consider to be a lesson in life. it also give me a sigh of relief to know this person is a miserable wreck and tormented everyday just living in his own cesspool of pity. possibly because your attach to a certain feeling about the person. only you know what that true feeling is or you may have to discover it. once you figure out how to break the yoke, you’ll be free of allowing you thoughts control you. it all boils down to being conscious of your inner self. your not insane. it is natural for a person to still have feelings about someone after being with him or her for such a large percentage of your life. the challenge is finding a way to break the mental attachment in order to regain your emotional independence. you have to remember that even though your not in the relationship anymore, the senses of him has not went away. simply move on one day at a time and before you know it he’ll just be a thought from the past. take care !! i’m just realizing thati am married to a narcissist man. he is always right never wrong. i amnoticing that i get more appapprobation when i’m doing for him and his son. my needs have never been met. he changed and started following a african religion, turned into a vegan, anything i say have no meaning since he changed. he gets a rise out of defending the mother of his son, and talking to other women on facebook saying he can do what he wants. if i mention the women or his ex he protects them by making me feel like they are better than me. he may be pushing me away, because everything we had in common when we were married has gone. he stays on facebook morning to night, and does not have any kind of real conversation or communication with me. he called me crazy and said i need help and told his friends that two dead batteries can’t make a car run. then he told one of those facebook females that he blocked me from his page, so she could continue stimulating his intellect. all in all, i live here with him and i have never felt so alone. i don’t know who he is and i want to go, funny thing my 9; anniversary is next month. i want nothing from him. i am with a guy whowho cannot express himself. who thinks his naked presence is just going to do it for me. we don’t relate. he needs constant affirmation and attention and yet can’t ask for it. he doesnt tell me i look nice or ask me how i am. 12 years of this. i only discovered this guy who plays the poor me scenario every time we go out for dinner and doesnt buy anything. its real fun. he thinks i should look 25 i’m 48. there is no feeling of appreciation for what i do for him. i have not wanted to break up because i fell for the dream. i i wanted him to be it. i don’t think i have the energy to start over and don’t rellish trying on guys that might not work. he’s a know it all a woman charmer who has had an affair on me emotional ones too. i am stronger number now knowing what i know and i will reach my end and need alot of counsel to be able to have a healthy relationship hi guys im a 14 year victim. ..of the worst kind of narcissist, a bipolar one, each character has its own disorder, psychopath, sociopath,so on and so on.. she drained mylife, i feel soulless, dead, zombie, and i look like a corpse, i cant even look in the mirror anymore..i have become anorexic, and look like im on crack. im trying to get out butshe wont llet me go.. i spent a good part of last year with someone who was severely abusive. i think she had a borderline personality. but there are common threads among personality disorders, but more importantly, with the way abusive people manipulate you. for instance, there’s the thing where the break you down so you feel like a bad person, blaming all problems real and imaginary on you, then geed you back a little self esteem. rinse and repeat. i have problems of my own, and at a certain point, i got help with those, just to hold myself together. but she studied up, literally reason my self help books,and directly applied that to manipulate me. another trick is was getting me to feel that her leaving meant i was a bad person, but more importantly, that her taking me back meant that it wasn’t true. ultimately much of this made her the sole judge of my self worth.another thing she did was to try and isolate me from my friends. i let her do it, because i wanted it all not to be true, and she got me into this cycly that had me feeling that if she was with me, it i was good and she cared. but i certainly made it possible, i had the choice to walk, no matter how hard, and like you i did. but its hard. still, i feel sometimes this deep need for her to somehow admit she was wrong or take all the bad stuff back. or at least express understanding of what she did and remorse. but i fight it. i know that the only time she does that, is when she’s manipulating me. another thing she would do is make me give a concession and admit i was wrong about something for each of her admissions. even if i was not. she also denied any positive things i did or traits i had. it was all about making me emotionally dependent upon her. it sounds simple to get of, but if its done subtly, it can be powerful. she also knew me before hand. in the “just friends mode” we talked a lot about relationships as well. she learned just what i wanted in a girlfreind and used it skillfully to pretend to be her. in fact, when she brought up us having a life together, she acted like she was worried that i would propose immediately, and made it cleat that less than a year is too soon, but more that 18 months is probably too long. that she wanted to wait instead of jumping in, but that she didn’t want someone who put it off forever. it was no coincidence that the timeframe was exactly what i felt. because in fact, i’d told her months before what i felt was reasonable. but really, it was a way to rope me in. to control me. to seem like the perfect girl” so i’d want to be with. she also made fake sexual harassment complaints against me when i would not cooperages. sharon , i feel for you,i’m still feeling it. its hard. i still find this thought creeping in where she admits she was wrong, we get back together and thus proves to me, perhaps with the inclusion of a heartfelt apology and a good explanation, that she was wrong,and rakes me back. but i stop myself. i know she’s poison. she admitted everything i accused her of was true, but then started making up be excuses about how i *wanted” her to do it. the therapist was actually shocked at it. the councelor didnt beleive it and stopped her so she obviously and quickly switched gears and said she was afraid of me and had to do it. at that point i’d it and left. but after she vandalized my car, and caused enough damage to make it a felony in this state, i actually hesitated to report it because i still felt bad about the possibility of her losing her job, and getting arrested. but i had to do it. its a step of breaking that hold over me. but what it always came down to every time we got back together, was that she caused a serious emotional wound, in such a way that she could make it seem to go away. and then she would beat me down until i was so badly damaged and hurting i was desperate, then “fix” with some excuse i wanted to hear, extracting at the same time an admission of some responsibility for my “problems” which she would use against me the next time. i’d bet you’ve seen some of this.the cycle. i suggest you honestly examine if you can handle it, if not, there’s no shame in getting help. the damage may need professional help to repair. just like sometimes, you might injure a leg or arm and realize after a few weeks that its not healing on its own and you need a doctors help. no. hell no. she will drag you back in, or turn on you with a rage like you have never seen trying to utterly destroy you. people with personality disorders are dangerous, volatile and capable of sudden and unexpectedly agressive or violent actions when provoked. if you try , she has to react in some way to prove you wrong. she depends on feeling she’s perfect.if you tell her that she’s not just imperfect but has a mental disease, she’s has to deal with it. as you said, your out by her choice. and your talking about using that as a platform of credibility to try not just to tell her she has a mental disorder but provide proof. honestly, god help you if you somehow can find a argument that actually resonates with her. what your thinking is “i care about her, i just can’t be with her because she’s so screwed up” now think a little harder, there’s more. that little bit that thinks about the wonderful person she is underneath, that just has trouble showing because of the personality disorder. imagine if you could help her. imagine if she got a handle on it. she could be happy instead of miserable. and maybe, you could see what really could have happened if you relationship was not sabatoged by this thing that was really beyond her control. you may even feel bad about abandoning someone who has no control over an hour illness that’s destroying her life. maybe you even have some issue you have to deal with. depression? adhd? bipolar?. you feel for her. you understand the years of pain. the wondering why your not like everyone else. and driving everyone that cares away. sometimes trying to get help that’s ineffective, other times reeling its a personal failing and imagining that maybe someday you will just “get a handle ” on it. and how your life changed when someone figured out what was wrong and you got proper treatment. perhaps it even was some true friend in the end, that stuck with you, even when it was hard and helped you find treatment that turned things around. but t she is in no way like you. you have normal emtoins, perhaps just a little out of balance without treatment. but a characteristic of personality disorders is that maladjusted distortion of emotions and cognition.if you do have some issues, she chose you for that. it makes you easier to manipulate. you want to help her because you care but you need to learn, that person you care about is a carefully constructed lie. she’s not that person, with these symptoms overplayed on top. she is those symptoms. its pervasive and all encompassing and integrated into the core of her being. don’t try to wrap your head around it. you will never be able to make sense of her. just understand, that person you cards about simply does not exist. she’s a fabrication. a fish on fly fisherman’s hook might as well ask where the big juicy insect he thought he had just bit down on went. as such, there’s nothing you can do. its not like someone whose depressed. treatment fixes them and the person inside can show their true colors. its not just a collection of symptoms that can be repaired. we all formed into person we are over our lives. we learned to be goid people. even those with some sort of issues usually do, it innate in most people to some greater or lesser extent. in fact, many if not most who have issues, become more compassionate about people like themselves.they often understand the idea that the person the world sees is not the person inside. but that horrible abusive person you see. the one that repeatedly abused you. the one who would see the sort of pain she caused and just keep kicking you whole you were down. the one that perhaps would say things approximating an apology like “i’m sorry you had to go through that” (notice, its i’m sorry i did that, in fact, what the hell does “had to go through it” mean, you didnt have to. its not uncontrollable, its abuse) that’s the real person. the sweet wonderful person that you occasionally saw is a fabrication. its a lure to draw you in. stay away. there’s no drug that suddenly makes it all go away. the symptoms are her. its not like the sorry of disorder where a drug boosts or suppresses a few neurotransmitters and suddenly a malfunctioning brain works again. her brain works just fine. its a software issue. and nothing fixes it. and if you try ,if you present her with a plausible and compelling argument, that she has a defective and badly maladjusted mind she, if she can’t manipulate you into taking it back and going back to the abuse cycle, she will show a level of rage such as you have never before seen or even imagined and do anything in her power to destroy you. count you blessings and get as far away as you can. its not easy being put down it hurts like hell and i’d be lying if i said otherwise. i have a seven and a six year old, a girl and boy, they are witness to his put downs and also are following his suit at times. i personally used to be quiet about it, , and hide in my shell until he was nice guy again, i tried the calm friendly approach to his “bad moods” that only made him worse and physically abusive. i cant challenge his behaviours at all. his take on it is,, “put up or shut up”. its not easy trying to maintain a healthy relationship with his parents and brother sister nieces nephews i need to talk about this and he doesn’t think theres any valid point. my man works away in a minesite which is the best part of 5 hours flying to get there, he works for three weeks and is home for five and a half days. the first thing he complained about when he got home this time was my tupperware drawer being messy, as pathetic as it appears its the truth. he told me not to smile last night, it was a national celebratory day yesterday. my family live 15000 klms away, i cant tell them. if i did tell my family and they were here the men would have it sorted in a heartbeat. you know, im either too skinny or too fat, he doesn’t like not one messy drawer in the house yet he drops his clothes where he feels, he actually has a swinging brick for a heart and when he sees something upsetting for females elsewhere he will jump in and be the knight, yet im a scottish twat everything is my fault im a crap mummy i don’t know how to keep a house and im stupid im done in with it and i still love him like i did in the beginning, hes a fantastic dad and his kids cant get enough of him when hes home its lovely to see if anything happens to him to cause pain hurt or anything, i am there, helping him through. yet, this, when he sees me clearly hurting from the copious taunting getting to the point where i retract myself, he blames me for being over sensitive and over imaginative//// even on the phone when hes at work, nobody likes you, ive no friends because of you, its no wonder my mum hates you so on so on look, this isn’t an everyday occurance, its fairly periodical, i definitely would say he has his time of the month on a weekly basis, however, its cuts me to the bone,as thick skinned as anyone would appear to be, it definitely takes its toll and id like to see him get better. just maybe one day i wont be there anymore due to the sheer stress and he will no doubt find another victim as sad as it is, we allow ourselves to become victimised for fear of everything caving in, hi i’m in a relationship right now with one and it’s driving me crazy, what should i do? i can’t take it anymore. hi, my names robin, i’m 26, and i’ve been married for a little over 3 years now. after reading this article tonight, so many things have come together and made sense that its a bit of a relief to know i’m not going crazy in thinking that i’m always in the wrong in my current relationship. but i’m falling to pieces. i’m an emotional and physical mess and its starting to affect me in my school that i’ve tried so hard to be the best at. i can’t even talk to my husband anymore without lashing out at him and feeling like a narc myself. my relationship has had sooo many ups and downs in such a short period of time, now i feel like i can’t keep going forward with him anymore. a part of me still loves this man even after all he’s put me through. i’m not saying i’m perfect, but after reading this article its help me made sense a bit more about why we have such horrible communication issues and why he has been so difficult to trust. but i am at my breaking point. i am emotionally damaged to the point i’ve been thinking about hurting myself, and i haven’t had those kinds of thoughts since my highschool days. i’m so over being hurt and let down, but i don’t know if its a good time to let go. i’m just very confused. can someone who has been in a narcissistic relationship or is currently in one please help? even some words of advice from a narc itself would be so greatly appreciated. i feel i am at my wits end and if things keep going the way they are right now, i’m going to do something i’m going to regret. please email me at [email protected] thank you! leave….i was with a narcissists…left once and went back for more hell! why? i refused to believe he was really this mean and this way! i thought i could love him into the person i knew he could be. it ended up worse the second time. they never change…ever! they keep raising the bar of expectations too and will completely drain your self esteem! and when it’s over….they will set out to destroy you. get out now! the longer you stay the harder it gets. just my opinion. mrussell hits the nail on the head….perfectly said…..amen hallelujah!!!! i have been separated from my narcissistic ex boyfriend now for 18 months and am still struggling with the fact he has totally cut me out of his life. we were together for 10 years before i asked him to split and since he went he won’t speak to me or interact at all. we didn’t fall out, it was a grown up separation with little drama. the relationship ruined my life and it was my shrink that remotely diagnosed him as a narcissist. i am glad we are no longer together but really fail to understand why we can’t be friends. i hurt everyday that he has cut me out of his life. hi melanie, it’s the same with me. i don’t want him back but do want to be friends. i have a husband that has npd. he isn’t officially diagnosed with this. but i read his psych profile and it fits completely. he has been verbally abusive, in pretty much all the ways all of you have already described. and has been physical at times. the real difficult part is he also has an anxiety and panic disorder. he has no income, nor does he have a health card (canada), so he can’t see a doctor, so i have to get his meds for him. meds that if he had to go without, he would die from the withdrawal. so if i leave him, i’ll be killing him. i’m so tired. i can’t live like this anymore. oh yeah, he’s also agoraphobic. hence the no health card. he can’t go out to get it. lately he’s only nice to me when he is out of medication. no doubt so i will go get him more. once he has them again, he treats me like shit again. i’m cheating, lying, setting him up etc. how do you leave knowing you’re for all points and purposes killing someone that you love. it sickens me that i still love him but i do. i feel completely trapped. i am completely trapped. i hate myself. we’ve been married 11 years. 6 of which things have been getting worse and worse with each day. i am in such despair over my narc husband. 36 years together and he discarded me like an old shoe. he was on dating sites…..he fiked for a divorce when he met another woman and when i would not leave home he planted gun in my room and called police to say i threatened. i was served restraining order and had to leave home. he then moved other woman in and packed my belongings up. i am so profoundly sad and broken……we have a 33 year old son who had to literally pick his mother off the floor from all of this. i feel life is over for me. he was my home and my best friend. now this woman is it for him. omg,charlene…. i could have written exactly what you wrote! i just broke it off with a man who did almost exactly the same thing… starting with how he gets a rise out of defending an ex… and talking to other women on facebook saying he can do what he wants…. making me feel incompetent and crazy (“you need medication!” he would tell me… “you’re just a jealous, childish woman!” and i know all about those facebook females… they’re not stimulating his intellect, they’re stimulating his big, fat, ego! i am rid of him!!! it does not change!!! i know!! it makes not a bit of sense!!! you keep going back for more and more, inexplicably!!! having just painfully removed an extremely n man from my life.. i will tell you why i believe it is so hurtful to us why they do not care…. it is because we are the normal ones with feelings and empathy and they do not have the ability to care and that is unfathomable to us!! it is just not part of who they are and they will never, ever change!!! no matter how many times we explain ourselves, or pour out our hearts to death, and even try to put things in as simple as terms possible, it is as if we are speaking an entirely different language! i cannot tell you how many times i felt that if i just said the right thing, the right way, i’d finally hit that nerve and get through to him but i finally realized that would never happen! and it is sad, so sad, because it sucks the life out of you the more you fight it. and they criticize you and take no responsibility for their actions, all the while turning it right around on you…it’s always your fault, if you weren’t so “this” then we wouldn’t have these problems, etc…. and you’re sitting there actually questioning yourself and wondering how the conversation got turned around to where you are on the defensive. it is a battle that cannot be won. the pain comes from not understanding why you are made to constantly feel wrong by the n. the pain will subside once your break the pattern of returning for more heartbreak. believe me, i was and am there. nothing will heal you except time. you need to let go of trying to understand why they behave the way they do, because the answer is that they are narcissists. yes!!!!! it is an addiction!!! exactly!!! holy moly did i need to find this website today… let me tell you, i broke up with him 3 weeks ago but allowed myself to be contacted by him after that several times and i felt myself being drawn back in…. until i completely cut off contact with him… which was very hard to do but i did it… and since i blocked him from my life, i can’t tell you how clear the air i am breathing feels once again. narcissists are toxic!! bravo and amen. that is exactly correct. they are miserable. dani, i know exactly what you mean. at first i read this article thinking that maybe i am somewhat of a narcissist, but i don’t have to be right or anything like that, but i do think when i was younger, with guys who were a little weaker than me, i was condescending. i know i had a mother who is very narcissist and very insecure. i, however, do not believe i am insecure. where, i am going with this is, my one and only just broke up with me today. there were numerous times in the relationship that he told me that he is more right than ever wrong. i know i also never doubted the relationship until he started telling me all the things that i was doing that wasn’t up to his expectations. instead of telling me exactly what he meant, he didn’t want to give examples or anything. i couldn’t do anything good enough. i have good self esteem about myself. but now i feel like i am inadequate and not worthy of the very one person that meant the most to me and i felt that i could learn a lot from him. he did think about things and how it would effect me from time to time and worked to change those things. i just am no longer happy and felt like i was always walking on egg shells around him too. i couldn’t say the right words or statements or questions without them being taken wrong or anything. then it turned into a situation where is tried breaking up with me several times only to take it back the next morning or get me to make the decision for him. then he tells me things in the same conversation only to say he never said that all in the same conversation. everything i say is an argument to him. he tells me i wanted everything my way, but i really think i wanted it him to meet me in the middle. i also know, whenever he asked me to make decisions, i would make the decision and then he would say “well why did you pick this, why not over there or there?” i was questioned on everything. i know what you mean about being on egg shells. i know i also had fault in the relationship on things that maybe i didn’t catch onto on how to treat him correctly in some areas because i didn’t understand what he meant. i take full responsibility for that. in the beginning i knew i how to handle him. then when i learned more and more about him and everything became harder and it was like no matter which way i stepped, i was never good enough. plus all the assumptions he had about me in the beginning only goes to show you he wanted to be right so bad. in the end, i am sure i have some narcissist ways as well. i work on those things already, because i know what they are especially when you come from the only woman role model in your life who showed you how to do things the wrong way instead of right. i chose to take that as a positive and make better choices. it has done wonders for me since growing up. i guess i never felt so insecure until i met this guy and got to know him further. he is not a bad person, he just thinks he is god. i never got confused about things until i could no longer get things right, ever. it felt like a game to me. he said everything i did was a game to him. i don’t know. i am a woman. i handle my emotions the best i can, but when there’s a finger pointed at me all the time, i get tired of being a strong person. i have a want for higher learning and purpose in life. i work hard to get there. i am not there yet, but i will be. i will remember this instance to know that i will work hard to not step on people in the future because of what it feels like. in situations like these, i cannot say it is all him or all me. but from what he said, it seems like it’s all me. since i last wrote my husband has moved out to live with his new girlfriend. before he left he cried to me and told me i desreve to be happy and that hes just not in love with me anymore. he said he was sorry and is still helping to pay the bills and finish a construction project he started. we filed a legal separation and we are still on amicable terms. this doesnt sound like a narc at all but during our marriage he would give me the silent treatment, withhold sex and spend excessive amounts of money on frivolous things he didnt need. so i am upset that maybe he isnt a narc and that i let him go. but then i think hes a narc and amafraid that him being nice to me means hes keeping one foot in the door. am i crazy? i cant understand why i am still in love with him when he emotionally abused me…its very frustrating. he made me feel unloveable and undesirable…please help me clear up this confusion i am in the same boat. sadly no one really believes me . my husband is very careful of how he speaks to me in public with most people. he will shoot me down in front of his mother and others in his family. but not in cocles where his psuedo personality is more familiar to other people. he is vicious to me. completely not anle to see how he is hurting me and we have three children. they are young and as much as they have seen their dads outbursts, they really don’t understand. how could they? if i left i would be blamed as the one who broke up the family and he would definitly foster that belief into them. he would also screw mw royaly im sure of it. heafter 15 years of marriage he still refuses to put my name on our house. when we went for our closing something happened where we had to put just his name to close the deal. he said don’t worry well add you after we get the house. and any time i ask he says. im not paying someone ti add your name. i don’t live in a common law state so if anything happened to me i wouldn’t own my house. i can’t have anything i want for my kids with “our” money. a pool, a finished basement…. nothing it’s always only in his control. the worst part for me is the psycological abuse and torment. he twists everything that i say and always has to have center stage. im never hearing him according to him , yet he never lets me say anything without cutting me off, correcting me, getting angry. he always has to be right and then twists it that hes not that way. he plays himself different in front of other people saying nice things about me as though he has admiration for me. it is sickening. one time i was in agonizing pain having chest pains crying for help and he didn’t budge as my children were sleeping on the mext room. i was interrupti g his sleep. i had to have my mom come bring me to the hospital. he stayed home sleeping. it was gas) but i had never know a chest pain so bad and im a 48 year old woman with three children who depend on me . i coukdn’t be sure what was happening to me and i was really scared. another time i had a scary test for a lung xray. i was so freaked out and scared he acted like there was something wrong with me and ignored me. i am so heart broken and lost, scared, beaten down by him and don’t know what to do anymore . we had two sets of pastors and several therapists tried to help. futile, hes a good performer. the last councelor saw right through his bullshit and called him out on some stuff. he never wants to ho back to him. says its a waste of time. im up at 2:00 am answring your post. that might tell yiu alot about how much pain i am in. hello i just wanted to say thank you so much for doing this for me and many others. at the beginning of the break up i felt like i would never love again and that my life has ended. thanks to all your advice, i now have the courage to face every new day. my heart has healed tremendously and i feel like i can now really move on. if it wasn’t for your words then i would probably still be in that dark place of my life. thank you, thank you!”drlawrencespelltemple@hotmail. com dear kelly, get out, get out, get out!! i did it   same situation as yours. don’t let your fears allow you to govern your life. you will be strong enough to fight and gain custody, should this issue arise. all the very best   it can be done. took me years and years   but i am free. xx hi bertie, thank you so much for your post, you explained what i am feeling so well! i’ve been married for 13 years. we have two boys, 11 and 6. i came to live in my husband country on the other side of the globe leaving everything behind, i have been here for 8 years now. its been very lonely i have learned the language and i have adapted and let go of the need to go back to live in my country (mom, dad, brothers sisters, cousin, grandparents, everyone is there). he never showed empathy for my sadness, its been very hard for me but somewhat i got used to it, i never talk about my country or my family, it is just something i have make myself somewhat forget. i decided about 6 moths ago i was going to make this marriage happier and that i was going to be happy so i could make my family happy. so i been trying to be a better wife and mother, i have been focusing on my family like never before, i have been much calmer and understanding with my husband and i have definitely been trying to give him all the love i use to keep inside out of resentfulness for his lack of empathy. two weeks ago i found out he is having an affair with a married woman at work. i spend one week trying to pick up my pieces to have the strength to confront him so i did, he was calm and told me, yes it is truth, so what? what did you expected me to do with the way you are, you never smile, anytime i talk to you you bark like a dog, etc. i realized none of our properties are on my name so i told him that i needed him to put the apt where we live on my name so he responded, you don’t deserve it! he continued that i didn’t deserve anything because of the way i am, the way i “behave” i asked to give me an example of such behaviors and he could not come up with one. for him every argument is a competition. anyway, i am in the middle of this mess now and very afraid to loose him, since i can see that the texting with that woman is still going on and he is at work right now. i will keep reading post after post until i can find the strenth i need, so far reading all of your words is the only thing that keeps me balanced. thank you all. i haven’t come across a story so similar to my own since i began researching this condition. after delivering our baby stillborn on december 1st, my ex told me he no longer wanted to be a dad (i have a 9 year old from a previous relationship that he had long referred to as our son) and couldn’t be with me. he walked out of our lives almost 2 months ago. i’ve received 2 texts from him during that time, business like about finances. it’s unreal.the sad part is, i can’t hate him. i can’t hold onto any of the flashes of anger that swell up when i think of how neglectful and self righteous he was during our relationship, especially while i was on bed rest for the last 2 weeks. just want to stop obsessing over this. i’ve read and read and it’s like i’m addicted to learning more. wow. i just sat here for hours reading your posts. i am still trying to figure out if my x is an n. i think he is and i think i am in denial of this. help if you can. i was maried for 25 years to a man 18 years y senior. the first 10 years were good then slowly disintergrated. then i met “my soul mate” we were friends at first, but the sexual tension was there from the beginning. we started an affair. he was everything i never knew a man could be. perfect. we would email for hours and i would cry knowing i could not be with him. he was very good at getting what he wanted. said all the right things, at the right time. wrote poetry i thought was for me but later (after living with him for 5 years) that all he did was copy from a book and change things like “white” roses to my favorite “yellow”. eventually he won. i left my unhappy marriage and moved in with him at his request. i was looking down to see cloud nine for the first 7 months. it all started crumbling down slowly, but surely. we split up several, and i mean over 30 times, during the next 4 years. i would think   at first i had to get away from this man, and as soon as i did i thought i was going to die. literally. i would panic at the thought of not seeing him, not being with him again. and i would go back. i loved him so much (and still do to a point) that i would have taken a bullet for him. and i do not mean the kill you instantly kind. i mean the leave you slowly and painfully dying from the infection of the bullet kind. the only thing i ever wanted with him was to die no more than 1 minute after he did. i was pathetically in love and admit at some of our worst times i was psycho bitch. the very thought of him rejecting me…after…”i have given up emotional and financial security to be with you. how can you think it is okay to treat me like this, don’t you know how much i love you?” so, 2 years have passed. there was some contact after the final breakup, but not much. i have not stopped loving him but i have learned to live without him. after being a housewife for 3o years (i am now 48) i have gone on to get my real estate license and trying to be a productive member of society. i have made new friends, and kept many of the old, shared friends. the other night i ran into him at a party. he was there with a new girlfriend. it took everything in me to not acknowledge him. and i did very well. then it happened. he walked across the room to walk behind me and make physical contact as he did. it was extremely sensuous. i ignored him completely. 10 minutes he later he retraced his steps back to his table and brushed my backside with his hand. again, i ignored this. a few hours later it was time for my group to leave. the hostess and i walked out front together, chatting and saying our good byes. here he came, out the front door, to his car, and then back towards were we were standing, grabbed my hand and gave it a gentle caress as he said to me, “can you at least say hi to me?” i said, oh hi and went back to my conversation. i have played this out in my head a thousand times in 2 days. what was that? why was that? he was always cryptical in speech and movement, everything had to be analyzed and/decoded. then i remembered the seating arrangement. he and his girlfriend, although at the same table, were not sitting side by side and had another person in between them. i should note the party was superbowl and casual, with most everyone else, myself included, standing around the tiki bar as it has been for the last 7 years. a very loud, obnoxious fun fun fun group of people to be around. when he and i were together our friends would always comment on our touching. we never went without touching each other constantly, even to the last day. it was a hand on the cheek for a second, a touch on the shoulder, anything that was contact and it was mutual and without thought. more often than not we could have a conversation without saying a word. when we realized what had happened we would laugh about it. we were soul mates, no doubt about it. at least i thought we were. i have sent a few emails over the last 2 years, not of the begging kind, and they have been greeted with absolute silence from him. so for him to make a comment about saying hi to him at a party….again, i am confused. perhaps i am only kidding myself. perhaps i am the one who is crazy and needs help. i want him in my life and i sometimes wonder (only to myself) why? so i can turn around and reject him? i don’t think so. my own feelings for him scare the life out of me. how do i really feel about him now? i would love to get a phone call, text or email from him. or would i? what would i do? i miss him. i miss his voice, his laugh, his easy going manner. his touch, his face, his eyes. i miss meeting new people and their comments of what a “dynamic couple” we make. and most of all i fear i will never find someone who i will ever love this much again. someone who i actually yearn to be around. but he is capable of being a very nasty man. he once said to me, “if i have never loved anyone…you are as close as i came.” i believe that statement to be true. after the incident at the party i am quite sure that a break up with the new girlfriend is forthcoming. i feel certain there will be an attempt to contact me when this happens. i am also quite sure i will spiral out of control when it does. he is 57 years old, been married 3 times, the longest marriage lasting 27 months. one girlfriend after another. i stayed with for 5 years. do they ever change? when is it too late? i’ve written a book here and i apologize. i feel much better now that i have let this out. my friends would slap me silly if they knew i were having these thoughts and tell me to put on my running shoes and don’t look back. i can’t stop checking my email to see if it’s him. this in hopes that jorge will reply. his is the only post i have seen from an admitted narc. jorge, i am curious as to when and how you realized you had npd and how it made you feel. what your thoughts and actions were and whether you have come to terms with it. nick   run! run for your life! seriously! live in a homeless shelter if you have to. force yourself to run away from her. look for an abuse shelter and/or support group   they are out there for men too! i am in your shoes right now, and it is a horrible way to live. i can’t leave as he is also very sick & has no one to care for him. nick i am 55 yrs old. run   run for both of us & all the others who really can’t get out! ps: think of this picture when you want to stay/go back to her/feel guilty/ etc. your on your death bed and you know it was her that killed you. do you really want to give her that power? i think i have just left a 2 1/2 year relationship with a narcissist maybe mixed in with some other personality disorder, i’m not sure as i’m not a professional. don’t get me wrong the nice side of him was extremely loyal and devoted, always there physically and practically and as far as i know faithful but the other side of him was a cruel, self centred, cold person. he was demanding over small matters that left me feeling like i was being sucked dry, expected me to be listening ears for all of his problems which he felt the need to repeat and repeat but with no feelings for me or anyone else he was emotionally dumping on and draining. he has a large family and i felt like he and his endless going on about them swamped me an my own inner emotional world, again he could not hear that let alone think and stop being so ott going on about his and his world. the weird thing is that all his problems were what i see as a natural part of life and having a big family and yet i have some quite serious issues with my family which i don’t often talk about as i don’t want to burden people, i find it hard to trust and open up to people and i don’t like going on and on about stuff. and yet on the times that i really needed to talk he would falsely accuse me of going on too much to the point that i felt wrong to talk and definitely not heard in a compassionate way, would accuse me of being at fault for the problems i have with my family and also twist matters in a totally irrational way bringing in issues about how my problems with my family were all of a sudden about his family members! even though i never mentioned his family. all this and more, he hated being challenged on anything and if i did he would go up like a bottle of pop and start a full on temper tantrum saying that he was being bullied and saying that i never appreciated all the things he did for me (i did as i have had to live a lot of my life independently and therefore take little for granted) and even if i knew 100% hand on heart that he was doing something wrong he would deny it and turn it back to him being the bullied victim. more of the story, he would over react to a lot of things, make massive mountains out of mole hills, continue arguments for days and then accuse me of doing exactly what he had done. a little bicker you know like when you bark when you are tired would turn into me being a “nasty bitch”, a “bad tempered bitch” etc, most people in healthy relationships would just ignore and think “ahhh she’s tired and feeling crabby” but not this character. he was completely oblivious and didn’t seem to care about the impact that his over reactions, temper tantrums, nasty words had on anyone else   including his children and like i said, it was never about him, he either denied what he did or blamed other people for his actions and reactions. i am sad to lose the nice bit of this guy but the longer that i knew him the more that the dark side kept rearing its head and that made me feel very unsafe and always on eggshells wondering when his next explosion that wasn’t his fault but all mine would be. i don’t know whether these people are conscious of what they are doing but whether they are or not they are very destructive. this sounds like i couldhave wrotethis almost word for word. my husband and i have been married 11 years and i feel so so alone. he will do evervything in his power not to spend quality timewithme or evenhave sex withme. i dontknow what else to do. inever linked it to narciccissitc before but maybe ontosomething. it’s really very simple. we see who they are deep down. we identify with those emotions. either because we had our own insecurities or spent so much time hearing, form them, how awful we are. doesn’t matter how strong you are. when you love someone and all they do is tare you apart constantly, you begin to believe all those bad things. plus, when you love someone who is so sadly damaged it feels wrong to leave them. it’s not their fault they are like this, but sadly there is no changing them. it’s hard to walk away, but easy to make them hate you to the point that they leave. he didn’t destroy my life. i destroyed my life by allowing him to continue in my life. i’m almost positive i’m the narcissist in my marriage. but i ted to over analyze details to be able to apply them. can someone please help me identify my personal behaviors. i find the description to vague , great deal possible the denial side is in high gear here it does not change. i was in for almost 30 years the first time (married/divorced) and in a relationship for a couple now. my spirit of fear, doubt, insecurities and judgement of others attracted this type of individual. i was the perfect supply. when i began to love myself fully i was no longer fearful of the disrespect. the belittlement came stronger because they had to get me back to where i was. i no longer cared about the conversations with other women because i realized they weren’t gaining i was. my eyes opened to see that this was manipulation and control because they had issues of their own that they didn’t anyone to see. if you think on it…you probably know nothing about them personally other than how everyone disprespects them. they fall apart with any input that questions their knowledge. just believe me…until they are tired of changing partners and running from the truth, they will not change. ok i need some serious advice. i have been involved with a man for the last 7 months(didn’t know he was a narc until about 3 weeks ago). we have only seen each other about a handful of times but have been texting daily & have talked about the future etc. he confided in me about something very personable & serious and asked me if i could financially help him with it b/c he is in fear of possibly losing part of his property b/c he doesn’t have the means to do so. i agreed b/c i have fallen hard for him and i do have the means to help out. so the day came to give him the check to help him & i was ok with it but realized the next day or 2 after his demeanor changed dramatically towards me. he became rude, somewhat argumentative about everything, criticizing me about stuff and very short in his texts. he has been hot/cold over the last several months but i just played it off as being a virgo b/c they have similar traits. he had never acted this nasty before so i immediately thought to myself i had just been played and used and asked for the check back. he agreed to that but of course he had some not so nice things to say to me & it has left us totally now not with any contact at all. i know now that he is definitely a narc but my problem is having deep guilt for agreeing to do something for someone and then not sticking to it. i know he is not entitled to anything of mine but i am an honest woman and keep my word. i just feel horrible for leaving him stranded like this even though he has hurt me & used me. so my question to anyone is should i feel guilty for not following through? how do i get over feeling guilty for hurting someone this way? also with him being hurt this way will he still try and come back for future use? i am moving on and don’t want him back just dealing very hard with my guilt. i’ve been in a relationship for a little over a year now with a man who might be a narc. he never puts me down and he’s got wonderful qualities. he does complement me on both physical and personal levels and we have so much in common. whave a great time together 99% of the time but i’ve noticed recently that he’s making more and more comments on how great he is. he says they”re just jokes and can’t believe i don’t find him hilarious but to be honest it’s getting a little frustrating. i sometimes feels like he loves himself way more then he loves me and i feel a little resentment and don’t want to give him any complements or say positive comments which could get to his ego and make it even bigger. i don’t feel that it’s healthy for me to hold back but i feel unappreciated and lonely when he’s too busy being obsessed with himself. we do sometimes but heads on certain things and i know he finds me “emotionally high maintenance” sometimes but i really do feel like at times he’s cold and doesn’t seem to care. this is not always though and with his jokes, he swears they are just jokes. any advise? is he really a narc or is he maybe a little immature sometimes less considerate? during a recent vacation, i also noticed that he tends to be attracted to anyone who pets his eggo and wants to give him attention specially if they are attractive, man or women. although he says he just loves people and he’s interested in people, i get the feeling he needs people to be interested in him. anyone who gives him the time a day really…… doesn’t seem like the end of the world but it was strange to realized that about him and a little scary at the same time. i thought he was quite confident but i’m not thinking he really needs to have his eggo pet and when he gets like this, and “covers it up with his jokes of how great he is” it makes me not want to fulfill that and which in turn, makes things worst since other people will fulfill that for him instead of me. kinda feels like a vicious cycle but i’m also just figuring this out and not sure if i’m just creating ideas in my head. i’m quite confused. i’m i exaggerating and does our relationship stand a chance. i really do love him and i can’t imagine not having him in my life. i feel extremely blessed to have him in my life, we have a great intimate life and so many good times together. am i just focussing on the negative? no one’s perfect and i, myself have been really hurt in the past and have shown jealousy and trust issues i believe only from my fears of getting hurt again. i realize that i am also no where near a perfect partner in this relationship. i also tell myself, it’s better to be in an imperfect relationship then one that is perfectly fake…. thought? omg! that’s it exactly! my marriage is over, but i’m concerned for the welfare of the kids and i can’t trust her judgement. so, i keep trying to fix the situation as we move toward finalizing the divorce. for now, i’m a hostage in my own home. spot on! i’ve been married for 15 years and now it’s over. i try so carefully to address this topic with my wife. trying to get her to understand and empathize with me. trying to get her to speak with someone, because her judgement is compromised when it comes to the kids. she’d be introducing them to all her new boyfriends, if i wasn’t around. but she always becomes defensive, then turns the conversation around to me, blaming me. and when discussing her activities she feels totally justified. no remorse, no guilt, no shame, no sorrow! it’s unfathomable! if you have such doubts with evidence, ie his behavior. no, i don’t think it stands a chance as long as you have any feelings for you. since we are taught loving is a giving gesture, oft times we forget we are supposed to get a bit back too. sounds like he needs an accessory in human form. i don’t want to be cruel but those of us who have long standing relationships with narcs can tell you this is a “red flag” to your body and mind of uneasy, that you are trying to get permission to overlook. most men have quite a bit of conceit and arrogance, but you need to go to a website and find a listed symptom or list of red flags of a narcs behavior and see how many are there. i wouldn’t wish such a person on anyone, as i know first hand the “moth to the flame” personality of a narc will cause you tons of pain, and totally change who you are. at the very least it is immature to constantly have to have “attention” and ego stroking. i have of course only what you say “bugs” you to go on. but many of these types the “charm” you get once really hooked, disappears real fast and then you are the one that gets the slam, if you ever put the negative on any thing they want to do or leave you in the dirt for . once they find ego stroking is exhausting to you, in the degree they, narcs, need it, hon that make the whole deal over pdq wow im so thankful to have found this page this morning, im at a loss i don’t know how to get away from this but all these stories are my life right now he is ripping away every last shred of self esteem i have ever had i am always alone and hurt he jeep taking off for the night or the weekend ugh someone help me this too is him and i omg how do we get ourselves back our self worth and dignity i just dont even know what to say i am so dumb wigs i would have seen this 3 yrs ago before i got invloved , the scary part is is that some of of ht posts actually sounds like mine and that he is fleecing some of you whilst being with me this is how crazy ive become i am agree with you i had this for 20 years! i met this nasty man but he was charming and his voice and he knew how to talk. it is crazy ! after 20 years i talk to that junk , who is trying very hard to charm me over and i am strong now and i dont need him. maybe only for some fun i just want to say that i have experienced so much of what is being discussed here. i especially want to say to broken that i feel her pain. my n husband passed away a few months ago. not only was he extremely verbally abusive at times, he had a drug problem that he tried to keep hidden. i could never understand why i was so bad for the little annoying things i might’ve done like ask questions during conversation. he could blow up at the least little thing and make a terrible scene, but he also was so lovable in the family and at church. i didn’t want to talk him down to our church friends. now he’s gone and i miss him terribly, but i’m conflicted over the loss because of the things i don’t have to deal with anymore. i think i’m grieving the loss of what we couldn’t have, because i loved this man. the relationship suffered and my love for him grew cold because i have never even heard anyone say some of the crushing things he said to me. as a christian, i tried to forgive him as christ has forgiven me, and at times, i do believe he was truly sorry but it was never going to stop completely. he fought the rage, but his diabetes and total dependence on pain medications and all made it very difficult. i’ve lost all confidence in myself at 55 because i knew he was on borrowed time but there was nothing i could do to make him change. he pointed out my weaknesses in the meanest ways, i can’t get beyond it. we did enjoy some things together and he did a lot of handiwork and woodworking around the house, maybe to make up for the bad stuff. i don’t know. they were 8 1/2 years and either very good or very bad. he was very talented on the guitar and creating his own songs and he won my heart so quickly. if you have much invested in the relationship and especially for your children maybe find a way to endure and pray for god to give you strength and peace. and pray that god will change his heart. he really will hear your prayers and answer. go to him in prayer when you need to escape. go for a walk, take a drive, take the kids to visit the grandparents. i raised my kids in a 20 year marriage that was very lonely. he neglected his family so much and wouldn’t discuss it at all. so i know the pain you feel broken. i could not take a risk of him trying to take the kids so i stayed until they were old enough to decide for themselves. my heart goes out to you and i wish i could help in some way. trust god and he will be with you and show you the way. hi jeff & lee, i can totally empathise with your experiences and i believe the comment about taking responsibility is very accurate. i too have experienced narc relationships. my father is narc and very adept at making you feel responsible. i played this role for many years as did my mother. when i challenged it i was cut off ignored. my siblings have spent too long with my father and have adopted the same patterns, so i have withdrawn, which has been my saving grace. be assured your ex will look for someone she can control as thats her modus operandi, yours has been the rescuer cos thats been yours. however you now have knowledge to change and change will only occur when you acknowledge the pattern and are able to take a different path. all the best for a happy future. @feeling guilty,’ my ex n/s (narcissist, sociopath) used guilt, manipulation, the silent treatment, whatever she could to emotionally devastate me on a daily basis for 2 years. n/s are masters of gas lighting, mirroring your every dream and compassion until they have you so (what we think is in love) loving and wanting to honor and protect or in my case save them. then, they turn it all around and make you the aggressor through accusations and/or blame. when you haven’t done anything wrong in the first place. i was accused daily of cheating, lying and being horrible. then i was the greatest man that ever lived besides christ. it was an emotional roller coaster to say the least. she has been gone about 6 weeks and i am just starting to find myself and realize what happened. subsequently, i have lost my business (hvac company), my home and everything i worked for in the process. a week ago she text, emailed and called (voicemail) asking for help and needing money because she’s in trouble. really?!?!? my life is in complete devastation and she wants more. uh, no thank you very much. i am in counseling, so are my two boys, and even in this short amount of time i grew a little bit of a back bone and said no to her for the first time, ever.. i wanted to help, but then i wouldn’t be able to pay the bills at my new apartment. i did feel when she left she literally took everything. over the course of the relationship i was constantly trying to take care of all her needs and wants the way a man is supposed to do. i loved her out loud, honestly and with my heart and soul. problem is n/s are black holes. the more you give the more they take, until the supply is gone and you’re in absolute ruins. please go absolute nc in every capacity, they will keep coming because they know you’re a giving, loving, kind and beautiful person. you as well as myself are perfect targets! so that was a little about myself and situation. your question about should you feel guilty? heck no, your feeding his narcissism is all your doing. he will continue to take and take and take from you in any and all ways he can if you let him. please don’t, it’ll prolong your pain and suffering for eternity… go nc, move on and never look back. you deserve a great love that’s reciprocated in every way not to mention fulfilling!!! i will be celebrating my 2 month anniversary of nc soon and i promise you: i feel better each and everyday. i don’t think about her every second anymore, now it’s a couple times a day and soon not at all and then i’ll be over it, stronger. but that’s a whole lot of hurt for love. take care, love and be kind to yourself.. you deserve it it’s not you.. two months ago my fiancée left me and she was exactly the same way. if your son is still showing emotions, save him and yourself while they still exist! because sooner than you think, all feelings will be gone into the black hole that exists in a narcissist empty soul. i am in therapy and so are my two sons. i have been through a battery of psychological tests and a turns out i have borderline ptsd now and i have never been in war. therapy is difficult and intense for my children and i. we go three times a week. my boys are 13 & 9, and are like little emotionless zombies. i heard my youngest laugh last night while watching tv for the first time in along time. i smiled and asked him did he like that and his face turned to stone and he went silent. now i can tell you i feel like the worst father on the planet for allowing this insanity to ever happen, and i will be damned if i ever let anyone ever hurt my children or myself in the future. i thought i was building a family and loving her, taking care of her all the while we were being destroyed emotionally. i heard she had a new guy just a week after she left, that apparently lasted a couple weeks. that guy was able to get out before he lost everything. i wasn’t so lucky. lost my hvac company, my house and everything i’ve worked for and am now renting and looking for employment. in my honest opinion, you need to get out while you can. if a n/s/apd/bpd person can they will take and destroy your entire life and blame you for it. your loving heart will punish you for her. you will tear yourself apart and loose your sanity trying to love her. your children will be damaged from this, i would venture to say you do realize this and want it to stop immediately. i’m sorry my friend, it will only get worse from here. once you realize the behavior and confront her it will be emotional terrorism, smearing from this point on, or she’ll agree and seek counseling and be ever so sweet to not loose her supply. that supply is you and the children. until she recognizes her behavior and truly wants to change of her own accord, is willingly admitting her own issues and gets intense psychological help.. she will not stop.. i would try to have a sit down talk with her and tell her your feelings. a one time offer if you will. and be ready, to leave… when i did it she became angry, accused me of everything under the sun and even called the police and said i hit her. i have cameras and microphones in my house, so that saved my butt from going to jail. i also put a camera and gps in my truck and put tracking software on my phone because she has since accused me of stalking and further abuse in the last 2 months. her father is a detective for the local pd so i’m in a really bad situation myself. cya is now a way of life. i have also just hired an attorney, filed for a protective order and filed charges against her father for filing false reports, abuse of police power, and violating my civil rights. this will stop! so when i say you have to stand your ground and protect your kids and yourself sir. i am speaking completely from my heart, soul and experience. i will pray for you and your family. all this makes me sad 🙁 this is such an accurate description of the logic we try to create out of this hopeless, ruthless dysfunction that drains life out of you if you stay or keep going back. i kept trying to make sense out of it and when i finally put all the pieces together, it clearly spelled n a r c i s s i s m. when i learned more about this disorder, i almost went into shock upon realizing what i was in the midst of for two years thankfully it was “only” two years, but the effects were horrific. if your guilt is the only thing you’re struggling with, in my opinion you should count your blessings. i was with a narc in a previous relationship for almost 2 years and during that time, he constantly needed my financial support, although i am a single mother with limited resources myself, but i was in a better position than he was financially. he was belittling, accusatory, vindictive, gave me the silent treatment, showed no concern for any of my struggles, constantly needed attention and affection but was dry when it came to showing it… i could go on and on. i ended that relationship with him owing me money and feeling like he had sucked the life out of me like a vacuum. another relationship after that had me feeling disregarded and like an afterthought the whole 10 months, but it didn’t hit me that he too was a narc until around the 9th month. it’s a very complex and confusing disorder, and you will spend way too much time trying to figure things out. i would leave him behind without any remorse because he showed his true colors once he got what he needed from you. this pattern will continue if you continue to deal with him. i can promise you that, and i believe most of the narc victims on this site would say the same. leave while you still have the strength to do so, and before you invest any more time and energy into it. please leave now and “figure it out” later. you will be glad you did. nick, i cannot believe it…i am a 14 year old victim as well! feeling the same despair. feeling trapped, soulless,! feeling myself getting smaller and smaller. i think i may disappear soon. how can this be? i am a man, i am in charge of my life! how can i feel so out of control? helpless? i love her! do not want to hurt her! but i cannot stand the fight anymore. all that being said; i do not feel i can leave! what happened to me!!!!!!!!!! the volume of comments about this topic is comforting and disturbing. i am in the midst of divorcing my narcissist wife, who for years conversed with me in a way that i found abrasive, insulting, and demeaning. not in a confrontational or obvious way, but in a subtle, eroding way that just wore the relationship to a thread. btw, there is a great site called shrink4men.com that detail a lot of this stuff. its been great for me in framing this type of personality. anyway, my narc is extremely charming, tall, thin, and attractive…but deadly. we even had 3 kids. the last one in july…only for me to find a few mos later that she basically chucked our marriage to pursue some married guy that she was gaming with online…in another state…and she has been jetting off for weeks at a time to rendevous with him on his biz trips. he also has kids. its like some pathetic harlequin novel, but unfortunately me and our very young kids get to live it in real life. she has no shame, no remorse, no moral compass, no guilt….only blame…for me. “what did you expect?’…was her excuse…see, it was my fault. i was so ‘mean’ that i forced her to have an affair….shame on me! my hope is that she argues that she ‘needs’ to travel every other week and give me at least 50% custody. and then after their affair falls back to earth, we can all pity her and move on with our lives. i too learned what they are after a very painful and confusing experience with one. the worst is that my father was one for sure, and even though i always tried to chose men very different from him i still managed to fall for one. they can be very charming and draw you in and make you feel very special and important to them. but they do this in order to extract narcissistic supply  ie rub their ego all the time. it is hard to get away from them because they have a “politician” ability to appear sincere and caring. there is a condition related to narcissism called avoidant attachement. it’s worth looking into if you find yourself having trouble breaking away from one. that sounds like a love avoidant/love addiction relationship. it’s very painful. that sounds like a narcissistic love avoidant. excellent article!. the suggestions to look at and care for oneself (instead of the annoying narcissist in one’s life) are extremely helpful. i feel like i could benefit from reading this daily! thank you! i am stunned that there are so many people experiencing this. i started googling this morning for some characteristics of my partner in order to try and understand what is going on and where/ what went wrong….the most ticks i could make was on the definition of a narcissist. i am a strong person or believed that to a great extend with strong values and standards and a great family however the last couple of weeks i’m starting to doubt myself which makes me cross with myself for allowing this. how can all other people i know and meet think of me as interesting and knows me for the person i am and listen to things i have to say and with my partner i feel like a “background” screensaver and utterly boring and worthless??? he flips about the smallest things and has now made me withdraw because of this. i have been called names so many times now and sworn at that i don’t think there’s a name out there that i haven’t been called. whatever i do is seen by him as bullsh@t and he breaks it down, all aspects of my life have been commented on from primary school, area i grew up, family, friends, work, church and not in a supportive and uplifting way either…. he is very opinionated about everything and whatever others also do is seen as stupid by him and he could have done a far greater job of it than those people. i can count on one hand in almost three years how many people he has complimented or said good things about and if he does its only by him benefitting from those people. his comments and statements outed or rather “believes” (as he is so convinced he is always right about everything) are sometimes so far fetched and outrageous that its ridiculous and doesn’t make sense and i am at the point where i feel that even of the cat has babies that it will also be my fault as everything gets turned around to suite him and i end up being called “f….stupid and truly f…up”. he is never wrong and has no conscience of even feeling bad by calling me these things and carries on, its like degrading others makes him feel more great about himself….really think i’m nearing my breaking point as i cant imagine a future   how much worse will it be in a marriage with him and he doesn’t want to get married like he to told so many people but to me he says he wants to but also only on his conditions and that he doesn’t want children as he has two from his previous marriage and has what he wants!… i married a narcissist after dating him off/on 6 yrs. i also dated one before him. i fade easily into the background and i’m ok with that ~ to a limit. i just wanted to say…. if you are being over analytical, you are not a narcissist. they don’t have the capacity to look inside themselves. there is nothing there. it’s all flash and image.. they are empty inside and incapable of any depth   so it’s impossible to be a narcissist and overanalyze. it just doesn’t happen. leave. hi. i was in a relationship for close to 11 years with a man who at first was nice a complimented me way to much. then after about a year and a half into out relationship he started talking to other women when i found out about it he would act like he stopped talking to them, but i caught him again he put on this pity party, but anyway. i felt alone in this relationship, i could never hand out with my friends with out me being on the phone with him all the time, even at work he would text me or call me and want me to bring him something to drink or eat or do something else for him when i got off work. we would always go to the movie (stuff he liked to do) and when i suggested something i liked it was brushed off to the side. if i wanted to go shopping for stuff he would tell me to go but when he wanted something i had to go. he easily got upset over someone talking about him or anything that got close to hurting him he would go off. now that we are no longer together because he just up and left… he still tries to control me and if he can’t he will use our kids which ends up working and it just stresses me out because i do still love him and i always will we have been through a lot together and we share children ( i just don’t agree with the children being used to control me). he always thinks he knows what im doing when he doesn’t, like he accuses me of being with another man when im simply at home in the bed or grocery shopping or out eating with my good friend. i need to know how to get him to stop and leave me alone, i wanted so badly to be with him because i loved him to no end but now ive learned to love myself more then to keep letting someone hurt me like he has. he’s always right never wrong and wants to argue about everything. sometimes he can be sweet and try to be understanding but at the same time look confused about whats going on. can someone help me understand…. thank you for this post. i am the narc and have sabotaged two relationships by this behavior that i didn’t know i had. i am extremely in awe and the comments that people have to run from a “n’ is not always true, i have always looked for ways and understand why i behaved in such a way and i wanted to do better but never knowing how and by the time i maybe could have turned it around it was to late, and left to figure out why. now, i need to figure out why because i did lose two great men in my life and i also have two boys and i need healing for myself and for them because i need to work on the damage that has already been done and start the journey of healing for my family. tears of understanding and grateful that i have a mind to want to do and be better! hi all i read all these comments and i too have been subject to a narc. i’m still in a messed up relationship with her long story short i was friends prior to getting with her she has 3 kids that i’ve raised as my own i have 4 of my own with her as well.i moved into her house and things were great to start roughly 2years into the relationship we had a loan on the house to get it done up modernise it.worst mistake i have ever made.she has bipolar as well everything that went wrong was and is still my fault she never admitts anything even stuff that has gone wrong with others it’s always mine or there fault.after nearly ten years we now have split up she has met someone else and i still live at the house with the 7 kids she comes back for two days a week sometimes more i don’t know where i stand regards to timing and days.she has controle over benefits and only leaves me with bare minimum and constantly throwing the loan in my face saying we would have money for everything if it wasn’t for the loan and constant blaim. i’m a ruined man i would run for the hills if i didn’t have the kids to think off.shes violent abusive to me and her eldest.i know if i left it would destroy them she loves them but not good for them she drinks a lot and when i’m not there she lets them and incourages them to run riot.constantly playing horrible music.i have no control as its her house i’m at my wits end feelings of suicide. i realy don’t know what to do anymore i’m scared if i go my kids will suffer or grow up to be just like her she is pure evil any advice on my situation would be greatly appreciated okay, i am an extremely narcissistic person. sometimes in a relationship i even know i’m hurting the other person and yet i still do it. it’s not that i want to do it   i just can’t help it. i want to feel love…i want to be ‘normal’ but i just have this inner demon i just can’t over come. i purposely push guys away…i make them fall in love with me and i pus them away…. i don’t want to be like this. i want someone to love me unconditionally. .. i just don’t know how to allow that to happen. i recently pushed away a man i could have easily spent the rest of my life with. he is perfect. but i found his weakness and i used it against him. now he is gone and i’m back to self loathing. why do i keep doing this and why can’t i stop?? ihave children also and i know they try and reach out for me and i try and give to them to the extent i can give to them. inside im just an endless void. it doesnt mean im a monster. i do value partners and others…but the article is right. i dont see them as an equal. i have to excel at everything and im basically tired of this!!! i just want to feel something so i can be normal. i have. i have been with my husband who i have come to understand from my therapist has very strong characteristics of narcissism. we have been married for 13 years and dated for 5. he is very controlling, seems to enjoy bringing me down and there are many periods of ups and downs. a couple of times when he was very angry he threatened me but usually it is arguing and yelling when i will not agree with him. my children and other family members want me to leave so i can enjoy the rest of my life. some say i should leave should i decide to do that when he is at work, others say i should try to talk to him and wait until he finds an apartment as well. sometimes i am fearful with his moods so i really am not sure and could use some feedback. it is a loveless marriage, it did not seem to start out that way. any responses would be appreciated. i’m responding to all the posts i’ve read here. i was married for 14 years to an npd. the reason jeff went back, the reason people feel like helping npds is called codependency. go to amazon and you’ll find great books on this subject of npds. you need to understand exactly why each of you has gotten into these relationships. you all had an agenda… maybe it was to fill a void in your own lives. dig deep, uncomfortably deep within yourself and the answers are there. read books on the topic and you’ll understand. also look up co morbidity definition. my ex was not only npd, but hpd and passive aggressive. wish you all luck, your answers are there, i promise you. i really empathize. i was you mr anonymous 12 months ago. i left 2 kids and my ex after being, abused physically, mentally and financially for years. my advice is formulate a plan to escape. you need money, a place to go and someone you can trust who is not in your wife’s circle of friends. the best thing you can do is get out and avoid contact. go to the police and get them to lodge a domestic violence order if required. my ex is a solicitor so i have had heaps of fun in family court. but i am slowly getting my rights back. the key to survival is forgive the person doing these things to you and realize that they are incapable of love and empathy which is why they behave in such a disgusting way. focus on getting the kids out. seek legal advice with a solicitor recommended by a male’s rights advocacy group before leaving. stockpile all the evidence you can get at work or somewhere out of the house (financial records, tax documents, medical information important documents). rely on facts and don’t fall for their bs. if you must communicate keep it business like. most of all look after yourself, your physical and mental health, make friends. become a whole person and get on with your life. nothing is more destructive to a narc to see that you have not only moved on but your thriving. wow !!! so i found an n again…just realizing how co dependent i was….always trying to help, fix, extra love, & just realized at 50 years old….i did it again ! moved in w/an n…….& 6 months ready to move out ! yea ! i can do this…..*** when i first met him, i was so charmed by his smile, he said he wanted to make me feel so comfortable, & i saw signs of him being so induced in himself & drag people into his so induced world , the way he sees it…he’s an alchoholic, & said, to me, all i ever want is to come home & be left alone…& drink my beer, weekends are just lovely, when he pours the jack n coke, more repeating how, the world is a mess & he is the only one that ever worked…& he should just stay at home & collect welfare to…..this is getting sickening…& the n comes out by always shitting on anything i love…if he can hurt me with a smile, he will use the smile to hurt me,,,,like my roses went drop from freeze he gave me on valentines day, & i said oh my look, he had a big smirk smile, & will stare into w/ evil eyes, over anything, to make me feel bad for wanting to sit by him, or talk to him….& when he snarls, oh, that’s a classic,,,,real cutey pie now, i can’t wait for mr. charming,( asshole ) to come home tonight…lol…..at a party he’s the life of the party, dancing, fun, until he had me in his twist…..now this great guy is blank inside, i never see any emotion, .. i said was this how all the other relationships were he said,,,yep…….he comes home, usually always a shitty day at work, stomps in, & goes into the cold garage, & puts on a propagn heater & calls up 3 different guy friends & talks & looks at his phone till 11 pm ..like there is so much more important phones calls to be made & to call, so he can chat & ramble on, & on & on..about how his day went or just calling to see how your day was, what did you do,,, but me…snarls…to leave him alone…i’m in the way,,, he says ,,,, he will be up to eat at 10,,, he says he needs his space…he is unemotional …to a 2 same word 3 x a day, **** k, love u **** don’t talk to me….he ignores his 15 yr old the same way, this is sad…to watch, his routine day in & day out……he says he was happier when he was single, & doesn’t really matter to him if i leave or not….we broke uo 2x he said, he can’t see being with out me…yep, i can see the next women ( walking into his cage, he built here for 30 yrs…..) he thinks he / she will be happier….? …my friends are really upset..they said to get out, because i am such a happy person, & they reassure me when there men come home, they actually have fun together, & have a few tv shows to watch , anything… he wont give me any feelings no words of love, of being of anything.. he got me diamonds for my birthday & christmas, because he knew he screwed up w/ not being a good partner, but promised the world, said were gonna go to church every sunday, & then says how tereable it is, & tells his son it was all lies…..i really got my hands full on this guy…he is emotionally bancrupt, alcoholic, & now this narssicist ! unbelievable…..he is so intelligent, & also that’s my weekness, always has been…. now i somehow hit the tri fecta ! i would have probably not woke up if he wouldn’t of broke my finger, when i picked up his cell phone 3 weeks ago….what a douchbag ! he got a restraining order on his 2nd wife, his first wife i get along with, she is really controlling, & i did feel a little sorry on his mistakes he made, till i see now, he used them for there money,,,,,,,it also seems to be all about money. i asked why he refuses to touch me anymore like he used to, he said; because he is stressed.,,on & on & on, like he just enjoys hearing himself talk over & over & over, gives him a high,,…i laughed & said, that’s a weird way of thinking, what an oxymoron ! lol. ** good luck peoples, im out of here ** i read enough to hit the road, & dont look back !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! im leaving with a smile : ) because i was happy before i meet him…& im not getting stuck !!!!! yikes !!! oh & ill say a prayer for this group,,,,& god bless ! i walk like jesus, taught me to walk,,,,i think he would say, you done the best you could with this guy ! i’m leaving & taking all my love w/me…….because the way you all talk …..he will never, ever, ever change,,,,,now he can belittle, make fun of , & say smart remarks all day long over the next women he catches in his trap ! i only have one word for you. run i read ‘broken’s segment. my heart goes out to you. similar situation! most difficult part is his saying great stuff about me in public, but in private he criticizes   almost daily. it’s definitely a need he has. next day acts like nothing happened and he seems fine   i’m not, i’m in pain because of his behavior. when i tell him he hurt me, he talks about himself and how i injured him and i’m to blame. what? imagine 25+ years of this! i’m christian and will commit to pray for you and all the hurting people who are victimized by people like this. i’ve lost a lot of friends because of his behavior   they see thru it, but the loneliness is there. it doesn’t go away. i do know that god sees everything. i mean everything. ask him to take care of you and change your situation. ask for his help. yea i realize melvin g. is not worth it. he is a cheater n big liar. sometimes u just have to walk away from people like that. i know i will find true love. thank god i found myself after 1year n 10months of this selfish relationship i have been in. i put myself through drama for nothing. alot of my time was wasted. my family and friends knew he was nasty n cheater but i guess they wanted me to find out on my own. he always talk about himself. he like alot of attention from women and people. i realize why cause his life is messed up. he dont have nothing to offer no one. i have come to realize he is a big user. he is a drug user. never have money after pay day. he loves to talk you to death about his past relationships. like that is really cool. thats how i found out who he be texting every minute. but thats cool sharon can have him. im done with the bull crap. i know i deserve better n more in a relationship. melvin can kiss my tail n no longer a fool. thank you ken for the advice many thanks. mr anonymous hi im at my wits end is it me, i have been in relationship for 4 years its never gone any further, he does not want to plan for the future, he has affairs and says that he does it in case i leave he will always have back up with another woman, he says he tells me he is having affairs because he wants me to feel insecure so that i do not leave him, he loves arguing and i hate confrontation. he tells me if i do not like what he does i can just leave, then he says i wouldn’t be able to leave because im addicted to him. again im ok if i do not make contact with him but once i answer the phone im dragged in again, i love him so much and could have given him everything but he does not care about me im just there for when he wants me i also feels so lonely in this 4 year relationship….help im going crazy hi i have been in a narcissistic relationship on and off for 3 years now. we have a 2 year old son and i don’t know how to deal with it any more. he is always putting me down and calling me really really mean names and focuses on my insecurities. i pay for everything and have held a job this whole time. i take care of our son 100% and very rarely get out to see my friends or my family. he drives my car and uses my gas. if i have to work his mom watches our son and not him. he is out almost every night with no concern as to how i feel about any of it. im tired and hurt and miserable and every time i try to tell him how he makes me feel he tells me im trying to fight when all i want is some balance. some respect and for him to care about how i feel but it doesn’t matter because it doesn’t have anything to do with him personally. i feel like he has sucked me dry emotionally and physically. he tells my two year old to tell me bad mom and tears me down. and i know hes not happy with himself and i try so hard to help him and do everything to make him happy but its never enough no matter what he is angry and its always some how my fault. he is in counseling now but i still feel like it doesn’t help. so why do i stay? why do i let him tear me down and make me feel worthless as a person, as a mother and at my job even he tears that down cause apparently i dont make enough money to support him and his habits of drinking and to provide for my son…..i dont know what first steps i can take to get out of this relationship. every time i even think about how to leave i get anxiety and it seems so hard and im not sure why, we did split up for a while and i had my own place and me and my son were great and some how he came back into our lives cause he had no where to stay so he was sleeping on my couch after breaking up with his girlfriend he had left me for and the whole 6 months we were apart i took care of my son. he maybe saw him or helped pay for anything once a month for an hour. and that whole time he never cared if i was struggling and still to this day he doesnt care how angry i still am at him for all the pain he has caused me. but why did i take him back? why wont i just say done and done and leave? i have lost all my family and most of my friends and now recently my job because of how miserable and how much he has brought me down i feel worthless in every way of life and im not sure how to get myself back on track. i just want to be happy and for my son to live in a happy environment. he isnt always a horrible person and the sad thing is is he has good things about him but his good is so small compared to his bad. i have been in a relationship like this for 16yrs. i too left after but returned because he took my children and convinced them i was a bad mother. i have little strength to fight this person it seems i just have to wait until he decides he no longer requires me and lets me go. 🙁 reading all the comments made me very sad too,more for the fact that it is only now i realize i was in a relationship with a narcissist.i was with him for 1.5 year.at first he was very nice,kind and loving.he comes across as a friendly and adorable person.but things began to change after our first holiday together.he had to have everything his way,would not care about me at all,to the extent that did not even bother to come to the hospital with me after i caught a terrible allergy.he felt happier to talk to strangers than spend time with me.he belittled me,criticized me all the time.he needed attention from his friends,females in particular.he never cut contact with his ex,took her on holiday twice while we were together,flirted with other women in social media,telling me they are just friends and there was nothing wrong with that.he challenged me emotionally like no one has ever before.i became completely insecure and started to believe that i was on the wrong.what on earth was i thinking?the worse part of it all is that he called it off when i challenged him about one of his so called ‘female’ friends.he insisted they are just friends,but i found out only yesterday that he is now with this woman.i felt completely devastated when i found out,but it made me realize that he never deserved me and misused my kindness.i cut off all the contacts with him,removed him from fb,skype,deleted all our photos and got rid of his presents.still can’t come to the terms that i allowed myself to fall in love with him.i feel betrayed and hurt in every sense of the word but i am on my way to recovery and gaining back my self confidence.the site helped me a lot, so thank you all. hang in there, be strong. this is such a great response. narcissists typically target sensitive caring people. people go back because they are trying to find the mask the narc wore when they first met them. the mask seemed so real. it must be in there somewhere inside the head of the narcissist. i’ve felt a great urge to find this mask the narcissist used when she met me and talk to it again. find it and tell it there is this other evil sick human being inside their bodies and that i want to help the mask figure out how to conquer it. all in the hopes that the mask will finally be the one in charge and the sick twisted empathy challenged selfish other will be relegated to a dark recess of their mind. i’ll have the beautiful, caring, sweet, gentle, and kind friend back. losing out on a narcissistic relationship is like having your significant other die. you want to mourn this beautiful person because they are gone. but then you see their doppelganger walking around and talking to people and getting in cars and you want to scream “hey!!! it’s you!! the person i loved who loved me back so dearly!” but you stop yourself. because it’s not them. it’s just the narc wearing the mask again for other people. how can you mourn your lover when you see them every day? if you are not an ex of a narc you won’t get it. imagine knowing your mother, or sibling died. it sucks. but then you see your mother or sibling at the mall and you are elated and want to run and hug them but then they scoff at you and treat you like shit and tell everyone around them that you are not their son or daughter. what happens then when your mother changes her mind and says “oh no wait…i remember you. i’m not dead. you are my daughter. i love you!” it is not easy. narcissists are extremely destructive because of this. the mask they use is perfect. it is exactly what you want and need. you fall in love, and the mask pretends to fall in love with you. you love your partner. real love. but the mask can’t love you back. and one day you wake up and it’s gone. in its place is this other thing that is clearly not your partner. i’m 9 months out of a narc relationship and i still see her daily. i see her using this masks on new supplies. it is one of the worst feelings i’ve ever had. would i really turn it down if the mask ever comes back to talk to me? would you? hi mitzy, don’t let this man ruin your life, you have to use every little bit of courage you have and do something before you burn out or lose your precious self esteem. i am a 48 y.o. man who’s been in a relationship with a woman who i am certain is a narcissist. we’ve only been together four months and i already suffered so much from her constant putting me down and gigantic self esteem. i still see this woman today but feeling stressed, losing sleep, debating daily whether i should leave her or not. i’ve got a feeling that the end of this relationship is near. it breaks my heart deeply just thinking about it because we’ve had (and are still having) some very good times together, much warmth and intimate passion, but her episodes of putting me down are just too hard on me. she demonstrates very little interest in me or my loved ones, never believes or trusts my opinion, only hers is valid it seems. when i put lots of effort into providing help with an issue, she rudely criticizes it. i simply feel like everything i say, all i do, all i own, all my friends…have no value for her. on the other hand, she has the best job, a nicer house (cause we don’t live together, thanks god!) richer friends (which she seems to pay much more importance to, because they are wealthy) etc… i’ve been in many relationships, from 24 years to just a few months, but never have i been on such a mental roller coaster ride with a woman. be courageous, your health is number one! i will try to practice what i preach and put an end to this suffering before i lose my pride and damage my health. good luck mitzy! i just googled a paragraph of how im treated and made to feel from my girlfriend then i found this site’s link and clicked on it, first time i’ve learned about narcissist,i think i may have found the problem, would love to exchange thoughts on this i recently broke up with a womanising narcissist and despite the enormity of his deceit still felt drawn to going back (which i havent) but had to question why.. i feel that partly my own fear of abandonment was triggered by his emotional coldness once i stop being a narcissist supply which made me want to cling…or rescue as id seen the vulnerable damaged side behind the attention seeking exterior.. needless to say we all have failings and im trying to find the place within me to forgive to let go….but end conclusion he has way too many issues beneath all this which would be detox to be around….i also feel sometimes we return as we are unwilling to accept the true reality and hold onto what we thought it was i feel for you bria…the fact is your not good enough for him youre actually too good for him…i never knew how bad a narcissist womaniser could be untik i read the hundreds of messages my bf sent others and the evidence of the amount of ppl he hooked up with while with me…its a fulltime job its a sickness. narcissists are never happy with one love…its too vulnerable for them and noone even them can live up to their perfectionist expectation. they need the admiration of many to fill their need. nothing was wrong with you..i too was deceived he wanted to live together and have kids. .thank god i found out as his behavior will never change unless he does serious therapy to deal with his childhood shit… if you can start to see and accept the reality of your rel and let go of the perceived reality and dream we had…you will move on ….someone better is waiting for u . you deserve a love that is honest loyal caring and true x you aren’t imagining things or being too sensitive. get out sooner rather than later. this won’t end well for you. read “girl’s guide to predators” by allison summers…. it will tell you all you need to know to stay away from creeps and spot them a mile out, female and male. hi there! same thing happened to me only i am more stupid.. i learnt about narcissistic disorder the first time he dumped me.. and then i still went back! 6 months and didn’t fill his needs anymore and back to being dumped again. don’t feel bad, they have a way of drawing you in.. they are professional emotional robbers. this is very interesting… and wow, what a list of comments! i think that i might be narcissist to an extent and i would like to improve / change for me and my wife’s sake. i am thinking of going to a psychologist… has anyone tried this? i am seeing a lot of comments suggesting that people leave their narcissist partner; however, no one is perfect / there are a boat load of people with mental problems so i think that it would be in everyone’s best interest if there were more comments about what people have tried to subdue their narcissistic behavior and what did / didn’t work. has anyone tried the voice therapy? the reasons that i think i’m narcissistic include: i have always enjoyed showing off (sports, etc.), i strive to be the best at everything i do, i constantly compare myself with others (to the extent that i have a hard time congratulating them when they’ve made an achievement), i am a perfectionist (probably ocd), i have a hard time explaining how i feel, i have a low self esteem even though i’ve accomplished a lot (good education & job), i am a little controlling, and (the reason that i started searching the internet / found this website) i have been making jokes that put down my wife when we’re in public / with friends or family, which is not very often. the reasons that i think i’m not narcissistic include: i think that my wife is an amazing, beautiful person, and i do love her, when we’re not with friends or family then i treat her well, i’m capable of admitting when i’m wrong, and i know that i’m not always right. my parents are divorced. my father put down my mother and puts down his 2nd wife. they are constantly fighting with one another. i am no where near as bad about putting down my wife as he is and   prior to reading this article   i just figured that i picked up 1 of his bad habits. something has got to give though because she doesn’t want to go out to meet with friends or my family with me anymore. i thought that i could just remind myself not to make jokes that put her down before we went out but that doesn’t seem to be working. an example of the jokes include imitating how she does things in front of other people (which she thinks is funny when it’s just me and her), making fun of how ‘slow’ she is for not catching a joke right away, and comparing her to my step mother (who no one in the family likes) for not being able to walk a significant distance. i don’t feel like i’m being mean when i say the jokes but it is upsetting my wife. help? it will be 2 years in june since we split, but i still haven’t got over him. god i have tried, maybe it’s my ego that won’t let go i don’t know. i think the woman he left me for is also npd or a boderline. i think this because i saw the manipulative texts she wrote to get him. i have stopped the contact, he has tried different tactics but deep down i still long for him. i want to see him try & crawl back, but i would never trust him to take him back. he put me through hell, i lost 10 years of my life psychically & mentally. i know he still stalks me online but i put nothing public. some people are stronger then others & i agree that i am codependent. i lost all my confidence & finding it really hard to get back up. hi my name is mary,i have an 18 year old son that was diagnosed “emotionally disturbed” as a result of severe torture,trauma,emotional,verbal,mental torment etc. his step mother is responsible but his dad knew it was going on and did nothing.i am very frightend when he comes in a room and i am extremely uncomfortable around him.i sole custody after the incident and he has pretty much been in extensive therapy up until 2 years ago.he tears me down everytime he speaks,he gets enourmous gratification mentally tormenting me and playing exhuasting mind games.he will check the mileage on the car we share to see if i went anywhere.he called me at a firends house one night when i was getting some time away for the night and said he had taken many pills and that i should not have gone.i currently am in a mental break down and not well and he brought people over to the house and proceeded to make fun of me.is this reportable and the domestic violence act? where do i start he has damaged me so badly the sadness and pain of why he is doing this to me is so great at times i feel like i’m going to die.the sickest part of it is i have multiple sclerosis.i feel that he is capable if he were to snap some day hurt me.i have gathered strength from god and have served him a 30 day notice to vacate.i know he is suffering and this is all the pain from the abuse but does that make me obligated to take the abuse.i want to help so bad and i cant i’ll die from a broken heart. mary i decided to do a search on personality,lying,always right, and i found this discussion. i would love to learn more about this, and after reading article, i know i am is a narcissistic relationship of 6 years, with several split up, and i always went back cause i truly do love him. i knew him for years before i gave into seeing him. i did not want in a relationship with him, and when dating progressed i made up my mind to commit to him, and i did. well after a year of living together, things started changing, without me even noticing, he was controlling me in a silent way. then the manipulation came on strong, would say i said something and i didn’t, he chooses not to listen to me anymore about anything, and say im talking to fast or im not talking loud enough or will just huh a million times a day. what i cant get a grip on is how he can not love me and why he would wan to hurt me so bad, and he acts like its nothing, he acts like i messed up, everytime. these are some of the things hes done to me kicked me out of house leaving me walking down street with bags if he let me have any at that time, and when we moved in together we had to move 30 miles due to economy, no where to live, plus we had worked together in this city, so when i walked i got far enough away from the houe before i could borrow someones phone to have a friend 30 miles away pick me up, that happen so manytime that my friend bought me a track phone to keep hid for when he started. well thats the little part.in 2009 i almost died they gave me a 20% chance to live i wast tied down to a bed four 4 days, all due to the stress he had put me through, i had gotten a dwi, one day a friend came by and we set on front porch and had couple beers, i went and got in the shower and he opened up bathroom door, tore down shower curtain rod, the thing on the wall screaming and yelling at me to get the hell out of his house conditioner in my hair soaking wet he grabbed me and threw me out of the bathroom. this came from no where, so i hauled ass, and while driving,crying,emotional, i get pulled over a get a dwi. then he bonded me out after him making me beg him over and over, he was so mad when he got me out the next day, so life just got worse. then he decided while i was in bed one night that hes gonna call my bail bondsman had one of my friends pick him up and take him to the bondsman and got his name off my bond, and never told me i got a phone call while working 2 days later telling me if i didn’t find someone to sign my bond they would have a warant issued for me. so we split up again my dumb self came back and spent christmas with him, he started pushing me around the house, and this man is big i dont play around with that, i am a little 100 lbs. lady, so there i go i took off running, well needless to say he called my probation officer told her i was over here, he knew i was not suppose to leave my county 30 miles away, so she revoked me went back to jail, see the judge he made me move back to this county get a place to live with a phone and put me on house arrest for my last 2 months. try this one i sat and kept my mouth shut through all our arguements at the first but im so tired i try to defend myself he call me slut,whore,tells me im ugly that i stink, takes thing hes given me away my engagement ring every fight it goes, sewing machine, in 102 degree weather he has for 3 days in a row, turned off the electricity to front part of house, lock himself i have wondered for so many years, what could make this man, be so loving 1 minute and act like the devil the next. i love this man unconditionally, but i am so tired of taking blame for every little thing in the world that go’s wrong, taking blame is one thing, but the violent,manipulative,yelling,calling me nasty names, i just cant take no more. he is 53 yrs. old i just need him to act it. i am turning 46 next month i am a little over 100 lbs, he is 5’11 pretty decent sized man and i am scared to death of him, he has pushed me around, woke me up pout of a dead sleep while napping on couch and had both of my arms dragging me to from door to throw me out of it, everything was fine he is a truck driver and he just got in the day before from being out 20 days, well i went back in door crawling hurt, and i dialed 911 he drug me again to out on porch the he took off he knew he was in trouble but he hid and of course i felt bad i don’t want him in jail, but i wore huge bruises around on my arms for 3 weeks it is summer time and he is telling me to cover them up each arm had bruises the size of grapefruits plus carpet burns all over me and my face. he almost acted like it bothered him that time. he gets in my face with hate about to explode out of his entire body and face with his arm and fist calked back telling me he wants to kill me, that life would be much better, without me on it. he always tells me he wishes i was dead, the first time he said it, i felt like he put a knife through my heart and twisted, took long time for that pain to go away. he will text me sometimes when i leave the house and say how nice i looked makes me feel good, but when i get home he takes that away, starts telling me i stink i am nasty, to get in other room. he has turned off all electricity to the house except his bedroom where the braker box is, for as long as 3 days in 102 degree weather, if he seen i had a candle he would take it away. while he stayed locked up in his bedroom with ac going. this winter, our first good freeze storm,the weather was sleet snow freezing for 3 days, well he turned electric off on me 1 night and turned it back on but i wasn’t allowed to use heater. he is ruthless, how do you do theses things to someone you are suppose to love. he kicks me out i quit leaving there for awhile cause its my house to, and he knows i have no where to go. he and i use to be so tight, close we were friend before we started seeing each other , we could talk for hours about anything and everything, and we just absolutely cant talk anymore. he calls me all kind of names whore,slut,cunt tells me my kids hate me my parents wont have anything to do with me, just anything he can say to degrade me he does it. he goes around talking all kinds of crap to his friend and work buddies about me. he lies,lies,lies. i cant stand a liar and a thief christmas before last we had christmas at our house, he only has his brother who was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer that earlier that year,which he and i are really close well we was setting making stockings early christmas morning, and he was mad at me had to do with shopping at some store, well he threatening me bad already but trying to have a nice christmas for his brother for his last one, ohh no that’s not happening he starts yelling at both of us, he wind up making his sick brother who cant hardly walk leave threatening him with a baseball bat, he just tried calming him down which made him worse. it was the sanest thing i ever seen in my life, then he started being nice to me. i wanted to leave so bad. he wont let me have any of my stuff when he kicks me out or i leave. i own my own business and 2 weeks ago i got us a out of town run, we made it so far had to shut down for the night i get us a room, he gets his stuff in shuts door draws curtains, i daid can i get my stuff, im sorry babe so i take to the door he lays down and just starts bitching, i walk back in said excuse me, he just kept on i said we dont have to stay in same room i can get another one, i grab my purse decided to go to store, well i get a phone call from my other driver he took off, so he left us stranded i had to hire a driver from another city to come help finish the load, and pay him cash. oh lord we have been split up every since, he text me hundreds of text he want his money hes calling my jobs hes calling child support on me the child isn’t even his none of his business either. threatens to call irs. you name it hes threatened. i have no where to go. been staying in motel, well i ran that as long as i could i have to check out this morning don’t know where to go, cant get my belongings. i’m so tired,my dog is there,he bought me my light bar for me to start working because i had quit my job to take care of his brother, so when i was able to go back to work he bought me light bar, he threatens me every time we fight so i have even paid him for it., no i stayed scared at any minute he is going to come break it or take off when i will have work and need it and that will leave me in bigger bind then i already am. so i have finally found what the problem could be. narcissistic. i have felt like i have been living with the devil for the last 6 years. if anyone has any suggestions to help me at least understand this craziness in my life. i’m afraid ii am going to have to go back , cause i have no where else to go. hi mary. we are glad you have reached out for help, as that is often the first step to feeling better. psychalive is an educational resource and as such we do not offer psychological advice or counseling. we can, however, suggest some resources that we believe could be helpful. since you express concern about domestic violence, we suggest you contact the national domestic violence hotline (1 800 799 7233), this free service is available 24/7. they also offer online chat here: http://www.thehotline.org/ hi to the post above: just leave. move out. run away. do not tell him when or where to. just go. he is dangerously disorderd and it will get worse!!! go to a womens shelter if you can!!! put your self first for once! save you. he cannot change. hi, i have been reading several of the post on this site and can relate to many of them. i left my ex eight years ago after a year long battle very successful with breast cancer. i knew i was in an dysfunctional relationship long before that but just wasn’t quite sure why and what to do. when i went in for my first counseling session after finding out the lump in my breast was malignant my ex went with me, i was there to discuss what options, how to deal with the emotional, mental, and side effects of the surgery and chemo treatment. i was still dazed, in a state of shock, and not sure which direction i was going. he sat between me and the counselor and as she began stopped her and ask her a question about prostrate cancer. she looked at me with a “oh honey are you in trouble” and said we are not here to discuss that and proceeded to talk to me the rest of the time. i went through quite a lot that year had a mastectomy, six months of chemotherapy, and had started the year with a hysterectomy. in february of the following year i asked him to leave and i have never regretted it. the reason i am writing is not due to him, he still turns in my life occasionally as a result of our children. i life with three of my four children and i am pretty sure my youngest daughter is a narcissist. i heard the term a few months ago and look up some info very briefly coming to the conclusion that my ex was definitely on that side. well the last year has been kinda ruff on us and i started noticing some of the traits from my ex in my daughter, then in the last two weeks it really became quite clear in how she behaves. the trouble is she has drawn in my older daughter as i call it the enabler, the older daughter has to do all the cleaning in their room because the youngest is to “ha ha” scatterbrained. their room has to be just the way she wants it or she is not happy and then the older one suffers. she has the curly hair and everyone needs to admire it and her cause she is so cute. she is quite intelligent and don’t challenge her because then you are in for a real tongue lashing for insulting her. she quite ready to show off her intelligence in any and every conversation. she makes up childhood stories and tells them as if it really happen that way and it didn’t. and i think the most annoying habit is she has absolutely perfect memory and recall!! just ask her! the saddest part for me is the influence she has on her older sister it is like she has reached inside the caring wonderful free spirited older daughter and replaced her with this unhappy grim person. when i try to talk to the older daughter she gets defensive about her sister and says i don’t understand her or i am to hard on her. tonight it all came to a real head with the insults and put downs only i call them i am putting you in your place because you dared to get out. i know growing up with my ex was hard and that she carries baggage from both of us but i always taught my children that i was not a perfect parent and would make mistakes but when they were adults they had to accept responsibility of their life. we are suppose to have a family meeting and work things out on thursday and i am not quite sure what to do i don’t want to live under my youngest daughter rules, but i don’t want to make life hard on my older daughter. i figure she is an intelligent young lady who will see the problems and begin to work it out. i want to tell them we live as four people in the house. my older daughter wants us to live as a family sharing alike, trouble is my youngest takes the best for herself. my youngest son also lives with us a very generous and giving young man. he and my youngest daughter do not get along he sees her as selfish, self centered and arrogant, he is pretty much right. i need some advice on what to do and how to deal with a narcissist when it is your child, and how to help your other children see that. mom hi nick and beth, please do not stay and let them kill you on your death bed!!! both of you. run both of you!! i did and am living in a women’s shelter for abused women. been here 10 month’s now. going to move into a brand new built house next week with my four children. i feel blessed that i listened to my gut and got out after ten long years! i never and will not break no contact. if i can do it you can!!! read so much stuff on the internet when you are alone in the house about narcissistic abuse so you are in no doubt that that’s what you are living a living hell!!! then you will have no chose, but leave. x. hi concerned boyfriend: how does your girlfriend treat you? how does she make you feel when shes around? is she supportive? if in your opinion its narcissistic abuse leave now!!!! my dad stayed with my narc mum for 30 years, married for 26 years! three daughter’s, im the eldest. my dad put up with a lot and she was a neurotic control freak, violent and beat her kid’s and stabbed my dad on hand with a knife when he tried to leave thats when he should have left. gone to work colleagues or even police to get himself out. he got diabetes type 2 and no 1 stress cancer pancreatic cancer, got 6months to live, died in 3months!! my mum fake cried when he died. secretly she looked relieved and happy like a burden had been lifted off her. so sad! my dad wantedivorce twice but he was too weak to leave her. and probs the fear that she would ruin him, his reputation etc. leave now my dad did not have the chance. i did, i left a ten year narc marriage. i am a single mum to four children. if i had stayed i would be dead! when your partner is a malignant narcissist/sociopath; you can never just be yourself and pursue your dreams. its all and will only be about her. you don’t get a look in!! they are cold and have no conscience!! get out!!!! dont think! just plan your move,your escape. i just wish i had researched this topic 2 years ago. i was in a relationship with someone who displayed all the traits mentioned and it ended very badly in my case. he was so self absorbed, very needy and spent his life bragging about his success and achievements. he loved to be the center of attention, craved popularity and blamed everyone if something went wrong in his life. he was a low wage earner with no credit history, he depended on me to pay his bills and in fairness he would pay me back eventually but i paid for everything else the household bills food etc. sadly when i had gathered the courage to challenge is behavior he turned in to a monster and this resulted in domestic violence. my tipping point was when he held a knife to my throat as he believed i had done him wrong listening to a friends account of a situation instead of talking things through in a rational way with myself. i stood my ground and had this person prosecuted not because i wanted to see him jailed but in the hope that he will get some help. he was given a 2 year suspended sentence and restrained for 5 years with probation conditions. i know he will fail and i know he will have selected his next victim spinning the stories of how badly i have treated him and i know he will knock at my door again but this time it will remain shut. help i am living with a narcissistic daughter (she is 28) who has us on a roller coaster of yelling and screaming at us, to crying and pouting when she doesn’t get her way, to playing the hurt one to my ex and using that to dig the knife in farther. i don’t really have a support group i can turn to or a group of friends to confide in. i feel pretty much alone in this battle and her aggression is so uncontrollable at times it is overwhelming. i want to tell her to leave, but she is my child and that is hard to do. i need to be able to talk to someone just to get a little clarity, a direction i can pursue. it has been a rough year already with losing my job and having to change careers and going back to school to accomplish this. we (my three children) moved back into the family home to save money when the personality problems began. now i am trying to continue living life, going to school, and keep us all working through this struggle. neto sosa, reading your post made tears come to my eyes the way you explained it is exactly how i feel!! in the relationship i was in with my exn, he was my best friend, he loved me in a way i had never dreamed anyone would. we had future plans and did things together all the time. he told everyone that he was going to marry me, even took me to look at rings. then 3 weeks ago, the day after valentines day, we were spending the wekend together. i had a cold and wasn’t feeling great but i was hanging in there. out of the blue he just started criticizing me, speaking to me in a way i had never seen from him ever. i started to cry and he got more and more angry… eventually turning very abusive just short of physical. i had taken cold medication and something to help me calm down from the panic attack i had while he was raging at me. (the more i cried the angrier he got.) he actually pushed me out of his house in my nightgown , it was after midnight, there was a foot of snow on the ground and the roads were very icy. he tossed my keys out the door at me and the closed the door and looked at me through blinds.( i had been sick for 3 days already and he knew i wasn’t in any condition to drive) i was so hurt and devastated that i couldn’t function. i was in complete and utter shock, where had this mean hateful man come from and where was my kind and loving friend, who promised to always be good to me? somehow i drove home and didn’t leave the bed for 3 days. he didn’t call for 2 days and when he did it was very short and brief, but said he just need time to take care of some important things at work but that we would talk soon about what had happened….. that talk never happened… instead i found him with an ex of his, that he had badmouthed to the extreme. to this day he won’t talk to me about anything, it’s as if he never knew me. i was crushed, but once i found out about the other woman i felt more anger than sadness because beforei knew about the other woman, he tried to place all the blame on me for what happened, and i was agonizing over what i had done wrong. going over and over it in my head. 2 days ago i saw him and he said he would call me next week… i asked if he were seeing the other woman… he said absolutely not. later, that night i called his cell and she answered. another kick to the face!! i was furious, what a coward! i told him and her what i thought of them and i’m done with him. however, the example you gave, of the person u loved wearing the mask… that is how i feel. i’m disgusted and angry at him, the man i see now, the one who looks at me like he doesn’t know me.but i grieve constantly for the love and my best friend that disappeared over night. he has hurt me deeper than i believe i have ever hurt.i trusted him and had so much admiration and respect for the man i thought he was… i find myself wanting to call or go visit the man i loved with all my heart & that man doesn’t exist. i have to find a way for my heart to accept what my mind knows. i cry everyday for the loss of what i love so dearly. this man could not care less about the horrific pain he has caused. he isn’t bothered in the least, already found his supply and hasn’t felt an ounce of remorse or sadness. i asked him if he loved me and he says, “yes i love you but it doesn’t make a difference.” whatever that means… to me , if he loved me it would make a difference. hope i can stay strong and resist if that mask ever comes back to talk to me. astrid, you made a point in your post that kicked on a bright spotlight for me… thank you!! you said” he made the decision for you, that you would have never left because you loved him”. i can see that this is true for me. he did me a favor, because even though i knew he was selfish and demanding in many ways, he was still in the “putting me on a pedestal phase”. i was still the woman “he had always wanted”. i was “the woman you can take around family and friends and be proud of, yet when your in the bedroom your a porn star” i took this as a compliment because that is how i see myself, i suppose. he would tell me 1000 times ” clearly you are the one, there is no doubt in my mind” ” clearly ,you are the one”. so i know in my heart, i would have never left… because i believed this and wanted this to be true so badly!! i had been in a very abusive (physical, verbal, emotional abuse) relationship before and had to move to a different state just to save my own life. i told him things that were very personal and private regarding things that i had experienced and how it had effected me. now i can see where he used this information to figure out my weak spots and when the time was right, go in for the kill. he was future faking and manipulating me right up to the very last second before he turned, looked at me & ripped the earth from beneath my feet. there were a few brief instances of devaluing, small little comments really that i mistook as getting to know each others ways… but when he decided to flip the switch, he did so hard and fast. in one day, my future switched from goals i was looking forward to reaching together with the man i loved, to a huge dark empty hole. i do realize that i have abandonment issues, as well as being co dependent and more than likely addicted to love. i will love & hang on & work till i can’t give anymore to show someone i care or will be faithful to them… when in reality this is what i want for myself so badly. however i don’t feel loved or “ok” when i’m not in a relationship. i feel lonely, anxiety and fear. i have worked on this for a long time and have calmed many of my fears. the problem is that i showed my weak spots and handed him the tools with which to destroy me, my self esteem, and confidence. i trusted him 100% and had so much admiration and respect for who i thought he was, so that when it all came down 3 weeks ago, i was not only devastated by the loss of friendship and the love he had showered me with daily… but i also lost confidence in being able to trust my own judgement in seeing a person for who and what they really are. =( i was feeling slightly better last week, but 2 days ago i saw him and spoke with him. he was so cold and looked at me like i was a stranger. (he used to look at me with the most glowing smile and with such love in his eyes) now just a blank, cold stare. it crushed me all over again. he made a point to let me know it was all my fault and the he could never forgive me… but for what, he could not say. he also made it a point to say he was not seeing anyone else…however later that evening i called his cell phone and his ex gf answered his phone. he is a liar and even though he is actively hooking up with someone else doesn’t have the guts to say so?? i am angry now, but the hurt still remains. i realize that no contact is the only way to heal from this deep pain i feel. i am grieving the loss of something that wasn’t real. one thing that came to mind, is that maybe he was mirroring the love and acceptance i was showing for him. in a way, that is a good thing for me, because that means i have that inside of me… if i can find a way to love myself the way i love others, i might have a chance at being happy in this life. this site and all of your comments have been so helpful to me, as i have talked and cried my friends & families ears off. they are all loving and supportive, but it is extremely helpful to read & learn from others that you are not alone and that it is possible to regain a life that is stable. i was in a 3 year relationship with a npd. the first 6  12 months it wasba dream. but then the mask came off and i found myself living a hell i never thought possible. i thought im a strong person, i can handle this, she just needs more love and attention. no matter what i did it was never enough, i was always in the wrong, i was always having to back down, she completely drained me emotionally and then tossed me aside. its 5 weeks since she left, not a word from her i’ve seen her around she is happy and looking for her next victim. they leave a trail of emotional destruction and never look back. i know this now, but each day is a struggle and i just push on. it will get better. narcs is a good word to describe these individuals, from their eyes looking at the world, all they see is themselves. was in 6 year relationship with an narc. named steve.they sweep you off your feet at the beginning! then, after a while when things become less exciting, the real person shows their face! i started questioning him, and once i started to see the real person, i was out the door so fast my head was spinning! they absolutely cannot let the world find out who they really are!! they have all their friends fooled! they think he is is such a nice guy! so, if you discover that, look out! i have never been so scared in my life! he became someone else! it was terrifying! and i loved this man! i was shown many red flags, but i chose to ignore them! dont ignore them! these people are truly evil! the best advice i can give anyone is run! he left me an emotional wreck! and i’m not an unintelligent person. this can happen to anyone. run from these people! you will find someone else who truly cares about you. these people are not capable of love, because they don’t love themselves! sorry for your pain. believe me, i’ve been there. i was a total wreck for 6 months. it will get better. i think once i realized that he wasn’t even thinking about me, and had jumped to another woman immediately, i finally understood how shallow these people really are. you will find someone much better , i promise. these people are evil and very sick. believe me, she has done you a huge favor by leaving you. it may not seem like it now, but some day you will understand. i look back now and realize i would never want to spend my entire life with someone like that! you deserve better! bonjour, je sors actuellement avec une fille qui à la moindre petite discussion se comporte en victime et me traite de narcissique. en effet, mon passé elle le connait parfaitement, alors le sien est encore flou et j’ai comme l’impression que j’ignore beaucoup d’elle, de son passé etc. or dans notre relation, elle a tendance à toujours dicter les règles de conduite, ses caprices peuvent faire des jours avant d’en finir. parfois, c’est sur facebook que je constate que pour tel problème elle ne m’a tjrs pas pardonné. ça m’inquiète et je ne supporte plus ça, je l’aime que dois je faire ? i need some advice… my heart hurts so bad, and although i am angry and know he is a heartless jerk.. why do i keep getting this feeling that if i just say the right thing or try to talk to him one more time that he will be the kind, loving friend that i miss so badly. it has been close to 3 weeks since he started acting extremely mean and nasty to me… before that i was the most wonderful person in the world to hear him tell it. i am crushed by the drastic change of treatment and even though i know what he is capable of… i still think somehow he will realized it was mean and the wrong thing to do…a mistake. i want to believe that all that love and kindness was real… how do i get past this? how do i cope with this? i keep wanting to call or stop by his house. a few days ago i did see him and tried top give him some of his belongings back… he screamed at me and took his belongings and tossed them across his front yard… then stomped off into his house, telling me to leave. i did leave and thought to myself this is it… i now know he is truly a jackass. i was there to give him his things back, i said as soon as he saw me… i’m not here to fight or talk, just to give you your things and say goodbye. his reaction to the sight of me is rage and throw his own belongings around his yard? what is the purpose of that? why can’t i stay i the mindset of forget him, he’s not a good person?? anyone have any ideas?? i need some advice… my heart hurts so bad, and although i am angry and know he is a heartless jerk.. why do i keep getting this feeling that if i just say the right thing or try to talk to him one more time that he will be the kind, loving friend that i miss so badly. it has been close to 3 weeks since he started acting extremely mean and nasty to me… before that i was the most wonderful person in the world to hear him tell it. i am crushed by the drastic change of treatment and even though i know what he is capable of… i still think somehow he will realized it was mean and the wrong thing to do…a mistake. i want to believe that all that love and kindness was real… how do i get past this? how do i cope with this? i keep wanting to call or stop by his house. a few days ago i did see him and tried top give him some of his belongings back… he screamed at me and took his belongings and tossed them across his front yard… then stomped off into his house, telling me to leave. i did leave and thought to myself this is it… i now know he is truly a jackass. i was there to give him his things back, i said as soon as he saw me… i’m not here to fight or talk, just to give you your things and say goodbye. his reaction to the sight of me is rage and throw his own belongings around his yard? what is the purpose of that? why can’t i stay i the mindset of forget him, he’s not a good person?? anyone have any ideas?? i am now pretty afraid that i am a narcissist! i had extremely narc parents and dated someone who i am sure was an npd for a while. and now i’m one. usually i think i am right, and i get tired with and distressed about other people’s wrongness. i have difficulty appreciating other people and their opinions, including in my relationship. it is very painful because the part about the bothersome “voices” is true, so keep in mind that no matter how tough it is to imagine, narcs aren’t necessarily bad people, they’re just very troubled. the worst part is that when you try to get better with things like generosity, you only credit yourself for it even more and it’s an endless loop. it feels more like giving yourself something than giving someone else something. (“i’m such a good person/god will think i am such a good person for doing this!”) you get addicted to self righteousness and the approval of other people without having any idea why. npd is the worst thing in the world. i wish my parents didn’t make me this way, and my childhood was terrible! it’s my greatest wish to have a relationship where i can truly appreciate another individual person… i know the feeling all too well. its puzzling, annoying, frustrating, but most of all gutting. if it helps i think it is a common feeling after being in a relationship with someone like that. they do leave a massive hole in your life and it is hard to deal with. its confusing and hard to accept that the person you thought they were they are not. i still look back with rose coloured glasses but then i have to remind myself of who the real person is. i take one day at a time and think each day it will get better. surround your self with friends and family. talk to them, i found it best to discuss all the things she has done. it helps remind me that she is the problem and that i havent done anything wrong and that i am better off without her. at times i write stuff down. but i found change is good, push yourself to go out hang in different places do stuff that is new and just try to keep busy. allow thoughts to come in but dont dwell on them, give them a moment and then move on. its hard, not easy, and i struggle every day. you have to realise it will get better. three weeks ago i made the decision of leaving my 6 year relationship with a narcissistic man. it has been the hardest thing i have ever done. i worry about him everyday and i cry myself to sleep thinking that i abandonet him. i keep telling myself that the problem is him not me. the red flags where always there but so where the good times. my eyes where opened a year and a half ago and i still felt like i could fix him. if i only would do more for him or if i learned to do things better, but regardless it was wrong and it was my fault. my life revolved around him and his needs and it still wasn’t enough. it has taken a huge hit on my self esteem and now i feel so alone. i always felt alone even when i was him, so i dont understand why the pain is so huge. he has called me selfish over and over. he tells me that i failed him and that i abandon him when he needed me the most. he has thrown everything he has ever done for me in my face and said that how could i leave him and our future after 6 years. he has made me feel like the worst person who ever walked earth. reading everyones comments is helping me understand that i need to love myself and never go back. it also helps to know i am not alone in this pain. i am so tired of crying every single day, i feel so lonely and so sad. i wish my mind and heart would stay on the right track. i have been fighting the urge to call or drive over to his house and try to talk to him. the last several attempts to reach out to him have been unsuccessful. he is mean hateful and threatening. i suppose i cannot get my mind to accept that he does not care about me. i think i believe if i say the right thing, it will penetrate that wall of hardheartedness and make a difference. how can i ever get past this … i just realized it’s been almost a month since this went bad… but it seems like yesterday. weeks fly by and i can barely function. i do not want this to destroy me…. but i’m not feeling better. =( anyone have any suggestions or advice?? the weekends are especially hard and it’s friday. i keep thinking of what we would be doing together if i were there. it makes me sick because i was never given a reason… he just turned on me… made up his mind and i have no say in it at all. he won’t talk or listen…the only thing he does show is anger and rage. i feel like i’ve been thrown away with the trash. =( it’s all so complicated for all of us, isn’t it? my guess is that when you/woundednomore talk about stockholm syndrome this is what you are talking about. i think as the years went by he became more questioning of his own reality, and feeling less like he deserved to free himself from her. anyway, what i want to say is i totally agree with you on the need to learn to love ourselves. the n is a shell of a person and it’s a tragedy and it’s spooky. neto sosa’s description of the mask pretending to be a person really affected me. i think that is exactly/horrifyingly right. so, reading about narcissism and families/scapegoating and the golden child/children, i understood that that was what had occurred in mine. it started to dawn on me, too, that my boyfriend wasn’t hearing me and was very slippery with the truth. these were things that i’d excused away in the past. that and his need for so much affirmation from people, especially attractive women. and then my father died. he’d had dementia for a number of years, so it was still devastating but at least he was released from that prison. my mother’s behavior got worse after my father died and so did my sisters’. so everything came to a head. it has felt like a kind of apocalypse as devastating as it was i’ve had to let my boyfriend go and believe me, it still hurts to see that dream disappear. i still believe that if he were to show up and say he were willing to get therapy i might take him back and give it another try. but there’s a root in me of something stronger now, too. and i’m trying to feed it. when all through the years i’ve been the friend that could be relied on with no needs of her own, now i’m feeling i deserve to be heard and to be seen, bumbling self and all. i read on another site a posting that talked about john ruskan’s emotional clearning techniques. i’ve used those and am reading his book and practicing his ideas, and they are really helpful. we all are a part of this beautiful world together, and even though we’ve experienced some real ugliness, it’s still a beautiful place. thank you all for making a difference. i hope that we all can believe in ourselves enough to get strong and shine! you are like me   a co dependent. most of us are attracted to what is comfortable and familiar  is it possible that one of your parents is a narcissist and that you were the co dependent and this is why you are attracted to her? my last two relationships nearly destroyed me but finally opened my eyes to the fact that my mother is horribly mentally ill   a narcissist. it was hard to see because it seems normal to me. the other thing that helped me stay away from narcissists was asking myself if i would want my daughters treated this way. sounds odd but if you are a co dependent and child of a narcissist, it iis easier to empathize about others than yourself. good luck. the seriously nasty narcissists do not go onto social media or else they do not stay long. it is too difficult for them to deal with competition for attention or be confronted with what their life is not or any number of things. the folks that love the attention they obtain from social media/posts may or may not have some degree or narcissism but are probably not the destructive ones   the sadists who inflict pain to get any kind of attention. there are too many casualities in their lives and/or poor relationships   social media reminds them of this. there are several of the sadist varieties in my my family and life and none of them participate in social media   even if they have established an account. …..just my opinion. nadia plz take my advice (married 13 yrs to a narc with 3 kids)run and as fast as you can!!!! plz do not make the same mistake i did and stay it will only get harder!!! it happened to me also i just got out of a narcissistic relationship and am mourning (ha!ha!) and trying to figure out what “i” did wrong. i have always been happy within myself and comfortable with me. i need to work myself out of the funk, soon! can you please send me the link of the paragraph you referred to. thanks a bunch!!! paula, i am currently going through a similar situation. i met my husband when i was 14. we’ve been together ever since, 19 years, that is until last october when he left our home, our marriage and 4 children for his new girlfriend who he works with. she’s 10 years younger than he is but only about 5 years younger than me. at first i was devastated but i quickly pulled myself together. i started exercising everyday to deal with the stress of it all. and i started couples therapy alone. in fact i never intended for my husband to come with me. i realized that because i put up with his narcissistic crap for years i must have an issue with myself or at least with believing i deserve better than i was getting. the best thing you can do is move on with your life. stop reading her online updates. honestly, if she was as happy as she wants everyone to believe she wouldn’t have time to be online bragging about it. trust me the best way to show them both up is to do well and be happy without him. as long as he thinks what he’s doing is hurting you he is content. stop letting your life and your happiness be manipulated by him. if anything you should thank the new girl for setting you free. you are still young and there will be plenty of other men out there. after being with my ex for so long i couldn’t see the light at the end of the tunnel after our break up, but 6 months later, i feel better, i look better and i am better. its amazing the toll emotional abuse can have on you. my ex even noticed how much better i look and how much happier i am. so much so that he’s trying to come back. now i appreciate the fact that he realizes what he left and i’m happy he can finally acknowledge the great wife he had, however, i can’t accept him back. i’ve done a lot of hard work on myself, mentally, emotionally and a little physically, so much so that the “new” me cannot have an unequally yoked man in my life. i am a stronger woman, a better mother and a better person. i deserve to be treated well and with love, care and concern. something my husband couldn’t or wouldn’t give me. i am finding that perhaps he is incapable of that but it is no longer my problem, it’s his girlfriend’s. if she’s willing to accept a married man who left his home, his wife and 4 kids to work things out on their own, she can have him. she’ll learn her lesson soon enough. now i don’t go wishing anything bad on her or him, i’m too busy enjoying my newly single life. i’ve started dating again and even found someone i like a lot. he shows no signs of narcissism which is new and amazing. it also shows me that my ex isn’t the only guy that would ever want me. its been a long hard road but start building yourself up and taking care of yourself more. i’m sure that after many years with a narcissist your needs have gone unmet. start taking care of you so you can get over him. its also the best thing you can do for your kids, give them a strong mommy to help them through this time too. stop thinking about him he already thinks about himself all the time anyways. i wish you the best of luck, love, joy and happiness. this goes out to roberta and shatteredheart, hi i am hearts a mess call me d, i can relate with you and feel both of your pain as i am enduring it myself with recently finding out there really is a name for this behavior, it kind of feels better, but there is no cure, and nothing you can do and who’s life is more important because i promise you in the end which way he is going to go. roberta when i started reading what you posted i had to scroll up, and make sure it wasn’t me who wrote that, i wrote so much on here and didn’t post, i really was wondering i say and the exact same things and so does my man, except his power trip this time isn’t as much about abandoning him as it is just abandon d, when he is the one who abandoned’d me on a job of mine. he calls me text me being so cruel to me just absolutely ruthless, calling my customers, trying to turn me in to irs when hes 8 years behind, he tells me my family hates me my kids hate me,he will tell me i look good and 2 hours tell me i stink get in the other room he cant bare looking at me or smelling me. i don’t sleep at night afraid hes going to come and take things off my truck that i need to have for work just to hurt me, and when i’m out of town i cant sleep thinking of why why now and every road i travel on reminds me of him and i when we traveled them together, i am having to lock away the good memories for later and keep myself refreshed from the bad ones, and shatteredheart lets three stay strong, i know if it wasn’t for my business i would be deathly ill, i know this cause i have been there twice due to this man, i got so bad one time so illl that i wound up in hospital hallucinating was gone for 4 days they gave me 20% chance to live, and back in 2010 it almost happened again, but i felt it coming on and i told a close friend i was scared that this was how it started before, and had kicked me out, i had to immediately go to the doctor and get put back on my heart meds and blood pressure and anxiety, the doctor seen me and said he didn’t know how i was standing, and chewed me out why in the world would i stop taking my blood pressure pill was i trying to kill myself, but my man tells me no one needs medicine they should be able to control their own self without medication. doctor told me when i went to the pharmacy to turn them in to tell them doctor said this was emergency and stand there with a bottle water and take them there at the counter and told me which ones and them told me go home and take the one to let me sleep, well at this point i was at first stages of hallucinating prior to that i had probably taken every kind of stomach medicine that walmart had no sleep and from 09 when i almost died they said no more tylenol the ammonia went to my brain that caused all this they thought i was drunk on drugs the sheriff made them keep running tests and i was clean every time, i was crazier then a box of rocks. well with the luck of my friend and 48 hours later i survived with a trip back to the doctor i was out there. what i am saying don’t let it eat you up. if it wasn’t for my company and doing damage control from him dodging every curve ball he keeps throwing my way, i would be in bad shape, i had a bad weekend crying, but i spoke with this one certain person who helped pull me through and they said do not get consumed by the text by him, don’t listen hes not don’t care about him cause hes not caring about you. and its all true. if he doesn’t call or text me it hurts, cause i keep thinking that that one nice phone conversation will come through and it does telling me something about a friend, the 10 mins later here we go, the devil done lit a fire under his ass. shatteredheart i am wishing and wanting to say the right thing to help him to make him feel better to calm him down like i use to, i want my home back and the same time i have seen him bad but never like this and i may not be alive if i was there this past 3 weeks. i have no place to live no where to go pay for motels till i am broke got a storage but he will not let me have my belongings, the sheriffs dept. says i need to file charges and get a court order, the lawyer the 1 that would even talk to me said he doesn’t do harassment cases but i was going to have to file for a divorce and we were never married sheriffs dept as well said common law takes affect in our relationship. lets stay strong and stay away, we can beat this, they cant and will not change, because first they have to admit and then they have to get help and that is where that is not an option when they get u back and yes shatteredheart he will come around messing with you as soon as he sees your doing good,i went back every time. no more enough is enough. when he get over his own guilt of hurting you,when excepts to himself hes done nothing wrong and if he does except it and take responsibility for it the excuse will blow you away. ladies lets not fall for it, or we will be their prisoner for a longer time and more time to get hurt worse. the wounds will get deeper and deeper i do love myself better then that. it help to talk, so lets talk, here or somewhere else we need the help. this is a hard thing to over come. but let us win our lives back to love and be loved. they can work on their next victim. and i dont want to even watch. i wish him nothing but good a happy full filled life hes 53 he should already be there, but he will never find it within himself, and i know he will never ever find anyone who loves him like i do. hi my parents are now splitting up, and its for the best. let me try to explain as best as i can. for the last 19 weeks my dad has stayed in the living room of our bungalow, he watches tv all day every day, he never ever speaks to anyone and i do mean never speaks he walks past me each day and his wife soon to seperate him, we moved hear a year and 2 months ago, this attitude of his has always been. before this episode it was for 5 weeks, before that it was 24 weeks, i started to record things to try and see the pattern and as strange as it is i started to see my dad is one of those nasty people, he is always always nasty, shouting, arguments galore, mostly with women over the most silly things. he watches tv in the dark at night also thats it, no lights ever. he now stays up late when my parents use to talk he would go to be very very early 7.30 8.30 9.30 kind of times, we all found this odd summers evening and he goes to bed, now he stays up untill early hours. he creeps around in the dark, each day he takes the dogs out and walks them, thats all i see of him, to further all this i went to my room and just looked out my window, and love and be hold he was talking and joking with our nirghbour across the road like it was nothing and everything was fine and dandy, as you can imagine my mind is racing and yet he ignores me and mum fully and completely, we have tried to ask if anything is wrong, last time he threw the tv remote across the room and he smashed it, not even one word did he say he just flung it across the room, as you can imagine im stunned and thinking this guy is a danger to us my mum and those around him talking to others but his family is reactions to questions, the non talking. once he said in front of me and my mum we should get in the real world, i just looked to my mother and she looked at me, we were kind of standing there with amazement on our faces, no talking for weeks on end a priod of what i can total abuse, and that is what he said, he once more walked away from the kitchen into the living room, narcisstict people are very very cruel, its seems misery and anger fuels them, and it can wiegh very heavy on you as a good person, yes it does affect you over all, but you the one thing i realised is you must i will repeat must stay very strong and confident in nice way, it does help guys. we are in the process right now of moving and getting away from this miserable man, we just can,t live like this no more, no answers, no talking, no asking, no interaction, no happiness who wants that life. my dad just walks past each day and walks back past us and no words at all, and we have no idea as to why and you dare not ask as he just makes it worst. to me some thing happend to him or he was involved some how or some way in some thing to make him so miserable it can,t be just being stubborn to carry on like this, it just can,t be. so me and my mum made the decision enough is enough and we feel better for it, we are just trying to get through this and move on from him, he is just never going to change ever, its like we have been thrown away and we don,t know why, we have asked all kinds of questions and nothing works all kinds of approaches, he will not get help, no doctors, no hospitals, according to him they are all wrong, no life is worth this. so we just need to move on, my mother says she feels better knowing she has taken the first steps and its just a matter of time now, all we hear is the bathroom door closing when he goes to the toilet in the bungalow thats it other wise you wold never know my dad was there, it so wierd to me but to him he is not doing anything wrong, to me its mental abuse and torture well the ball is in our court now, he does,nt know yet but he will soon enough, we have packed up and he still has,nt approached us not one word, no talking to save his marriage, no sit down talks, its the wierdest thing i have ever gone through year on year, please look with better eyes people and i prey this never happens to you, it complete hell. god bless you all. nadia, i feel i am in a similar situation. i have been dating a man for just under a year who i think may be indeed a narcissist. i’ve known him for many years but as he is actually a rather quiet person, only just begun to recognize the weird personality traits since we have been romantically involved. we watched a movie last night that stated seven characteristics of the disease and he had them all. i immediately put it together; it hit me like a ton of bricks. and then researched it after he left, and was truly amazed. he has always said he is immortal, of course as a “joke,” since we have begun dating and that he is a demigod. thought it was cute and playful at first, until i realized how inflated his ego really was, and that he was actually to some extent, serious. he is very attractive, and i tell him that a lot. but i feel like i shouldn’t anymore, because he knows it and it is very apparent that he does. it’s great that he is confident, but he is also one of those men (and knowing his as a good friend i would have never expected this) who simply cannot tell a woman she is beautiful. in a year, he told me i looked good tonight once and upon first consummation that i was “attractive.” but in the context that it happened only as result of him being “very attracted to me.” who says that? anyway, a few months after we started dating (something he hasn’t done in years, suspiciously) and can say he has said nothing remotely like it since. (not that it was a great compliment to begin with) he has compliment issues. he is extremely sensitive, and me inputting something simple into a conversation that is in no way an attack on him is taken offensively and considered a “disregard” of his own opinion. he is particularly sensitive to the word “stupid” and have been instructed not to use it in any context, even playfully or as a joke it will offend him. he is so so so quiet, like one of the most quiet people i know. but only in small groups i have finally noticed. alone with me, he can be sullen and say nothing but a word for hours. and thats his normal, always has been. but in a large group, he certainly craves attention, suddenly he becomes this extreme extrovert that i never get to see. when we started dating he specifically warned me “i have trouble with emotion.” and while i believe he usually recognizes other peoples emotions, i just don’t think he cares. he can be very cold, and very distant. i think he too thinks of me as “emotionally needy” but i am just very off put by his lack of it. i’m not sure if my husband is a narc or not. he left me while i was away, sold my things in a garage sale and took my deceased grandmother’s belongings to include her death certificate. i am always having to explain myself, if i do not give him the attention he needs then he gets clingy, if i give him too much attention then i am smothering him. last year he stole our taxes and this year got mad because i filed w/out him but still gave him half of mine since i claimed our daughter (we split daycare). he was mad because i bought a new car and paid it off, said he could get me a better deal, then turned around and bought our oldest daughter a 16,000 vw w/ no warranty. he always plays the victim, makes everybody think he is this great guy. he had an affair in november, caught an std then i had to get checked, luckily i was negative. he likes to control our situations. gets mad when i make my own decisions on things. when we get into a heated argument, he does the girlie “hang up”. i have to watch what i say around him, watch the tone, watch the body language or else he will give me hell about it, that can last up to 2 days, sometimes even longer. is this a narc? narcissists are master manipulators for their own gratification. they pull on your heart strings and will twist things around to manipulate your behaviour as you are no doubt a trusting individual. make no doubt about it, these individuals will ruin your trust. i dated one for 3 months, doesn’t seem long but it completely ruined my self esteem. i realize you only “allow” people to take your self esteem but seriously when you are someone who is caring, hates to see others hurt and trusting, these people will prey on every ounce of that goodness. forgive yourself for not knowing you were getting caught in a sick head game, remember your worth and your goodness and begin to recognize even the slightest character trait of these sad, struggling people. most of all….don’t become one yourself from the pain. thanks to articles like this i was able to work out what was going on with a man for eight months and it was pure hell! i read up as much as i could and it was such a relief because at one point i thought it was me! for anyone in this type of relationship i can only say its not you, you are better than this and get out. his npd was unbearable, embarrassing and soul destroying. the walking on egg shells, his belligerent behavior, the transference, the put downs, the lack of emotion during and after sex, the constant need to attack opinions as if it were a criticism of him and the peacock behavior was grating. the illusions of grandeur and the the need to be looked at, almost demanding it by young women when out to boost his ego was vomitus! but mostly it was his mind games, twisting and distorting information, experiences and words to suit his agenda and a screwed up perception was the end point. to anyone in a npd relationship at the moment be strong by leaving and having a life on your terms. it will be a tremendous freeing sensation. thanks, your comment makes sense. i’ve been really struggling. i was in a relationship for 3 years (right after my divorce to a man who cheated on me over and over again) to a man who was very fun and exciting. we lead a fast pace of friends traveling, and hanging out. i finally felt like i was living for the first time ever. after 6mo he moved in with me and i never had my space back. he started to become demanding that it was my job to cook, clean, do his laundry, and take care of his kids (one being disabled and unable to talk, the other an angry teen. both lived with us). my former life was me having all the time to myself and having coffee with friends because my ex never wanted to do anything with me. this man became so demanding and telling me that i have to ask him before i could go with my friends or even how long i could go visit my grand kids. even though when i said i wasn’t going to ask permission he got mad and said it wasn’t asking permission but it was about courtesy for the partner. then he constantly was going places with his kids and i always had to be with him! never any alone time! he is always saying that i’m his angel and that i’m on a pedastool, tells everyone how im so smart, loving, and hes damn lucky to have me. but then doesnt feel respected as a man because i wont listen to him. i told him i dont feel loved and he keeps saying that he will show me love after i show him respect. not to mention sex….. he won’t touch me there, but only wants to look at me to pleasure himself. he wants me to touch myself because he finds touching me is gross. so i fear i’m unattractive. he can’t have an erection unless its him only but not with normal intercourse with me. well i finally kicked him out after 3years and he got another girlfriend in less than a week. all along still begging me to marry him. i was crushed. his daughter struggled because i was a mom to her and she wanted me at her track meet instead of his girlfriend. he told me then that she would not be second to me and we broke up so i needed to get over it and move on and stay out of her life. now really crushed! i moved on and found a really nice man who is calm and kind. he never did let me go. he txt or called me weekly and had me crying most of the time. after 6 mo we got back together because he promised change and said he loved me so much and broke it off with his girlfriend. he took me on a trip where we talked, cried, and worked it all out…so i thought. then he started chewing me out again so i walked away. he’s threatened suicide, had people call me and beg for another chance, made an appt with a pastor, proposed marriage, and called me bawling etc… i rejected all of it. problem is… i’m so torn with him. he was so exciting and we use to talk on such a deep emotional level that we know each others soles. he sends me love notes, begs, misses me, loves only me, etc… and i find myself missing him to tears. i don’t want to miss him but i can’t stop! he says we are sole mates and we will never find a love as strong as ours. he said there is something in his every day that reminds him of me. i end up bawling. no matter how he has hurt me he keeps saying that he was hurt too. help! when he loves me it can be so powerful! why am i so easily drawn back when my head says stop? i just miss him so much then i went back to the nice man who can’t understand why i would go back to this man who does this to me. this guy treats me with respect and kindness but i worry he will be boring in time. how do i get this man out of my head? did i make a mistake? why am i so dumb? exactly all u say exactly what i did and what it has made me now if i knew another word for to the t id use it but i can not think of any at the moment i’m so lost and still feel as if its my fault after so long of beening told something its had not to think it true i’m so lost i feel like i’m drowning n my own thoughts and lonlyness i want him back but know what would become of it until he realizes his own problems or admit his own problems for use of a better word we can never b marrage is ones in my eyes i gave my self to him now i got nothing but questions of y i’m so wrong and y am i no enough let to show and he seems to b happier than i saw him n yrs idk what to do i just don’t know i am currently and have been for over 25 years in a relationship with same man who is as i finally understand a narcissist. i have never had a birthday christmas present never a mothers day present never a valentines present or anniversary of any kind. i have more than four children i have cared for almost as a single mother. i want out of this relationship, as much as i loved him i am no longer in love with him as the pain and fear is overwhelming and now shadows anything else i feel. i tried every thing but now i don’t like the person i become around him. i need to do this to save my children specially my daughter who i do not want to see this as normal behaviour. the older ones know but the 2 younger ones do not one is already treating me like his father and my daughter is only 3 this i see as abuse if i don’t stop them being witness to the constant abuse. i am now in fear of him coming home from work as i know he will come in and the abuse will start again. i have asked him to leave so many times but he is not able to rent and he will end up on my sons doorstep, i don’t want to do that to him. i am at a loss as to what to do and at the end of my rope. hello everyone. this is my testimony and i hope you will learn, grow and gain the strength you need to choose to take care of yourself. i am happy, at peace, and grateful to be alive. my heart goes out to each of you, narc or victim. my mother was an abusive narc. she totally destroyed my spirit and any sense of my self worth and self esteem. my father allowed it. at age 4, i didn’t sleep or eat. i felt there was a tiger under my bed waiting to attack me if it heard me breath. i could hear it growling every night. so i tried not to breath…all night long. there was no one to call out to… somehow i prayed. at that young age, i hid and locked my true spirit in a thousand closets located in the deepest darkest wells of my soul. i became a zombie with no feelings and no relationships. i did not know anything about love or trust. out of desperation and to survive, i grew into the most co dependent person on earth. i have 2 childhood memories. both full of fear. as soon as possible, i left home. only to marry two narcs. as i secretly divorced the first one of 11 years, he broke into my apt and held a gun to my head while raping me at 2am. he said he was going to shoot me and our two babies. if he couldn’t own me, no one could. so i prayed again for my children’s lives. and my spouse became fearful and ran away as fast as he could run. my second husband was all about pleasing himself, lying and threatening me while everyone was loving him. i was so co dependent, yet like you, i thought i was so in love. it was the best feeling, the best high i ever experienced. i couldn’t do enough to please him because that validated that i had some worth, occasionally. i didn’t exist. finally, i had nothing left inside of me to give or even shed one tear. it was so bad, my spouse brought a woman home while i was asleep. it woke me up. she was standing in front of me and he lied, saying she wasn’t there. i was so sick, i wanted to believe his truth. i had to force myself to recognize the real truth. the real truth about me, and the way i chose to live my life. the next moment i knew i would kill myself if i didn’t save myself. i realized no one else could save me. you have to do it yourself. so, again i asked god to help me, to save me, to put me on my right path. and he did. i suddenly saw my spouse for who he is. i felt like i might be worth living for… i thought about me for the first time since i was 4. i did not think about him. i found myself learning about faith and a high power. it was not quick or easy, but so worth it! it was excrutiating as a co dependent to force myself to leave my husband or my “qualifier” with no friends, no support, but god and a strange lawyer. my ex spouse threw me against a concrete wall, and screamed as he glared directly into my eyes, “what happened? what happened? i thought i had you. i know i had you. i know i did!” it was like satan was in my face. i was petrified. i asked god to give me the strength i needed at that moment. i told my ex to take his hands off me and to never touch me again. i watched him slowly shrivel up into the weak thing he learned to be during his childhood. he was a monster like the one under my childhood bed. well that was 10 years ago. during the last 10 years, i found a recovery group and learned about addiction and co dependency. i learned how to forgive myself and to heal. i spoke to my mother and she asked me to forgive her. i forgave her and my ex’s. i found peace and freedom; a chance to live and love. i learned that i didn’t love my spouses at all. i was addicted to them and to the hurtful pain. that’s why you can’t leave and you continue to go back. if you are co dependent, you are addicted and live your life through another person. it is not love. love is good and of god. it is positive and you feel peaceful and happy. the one you are living with and the lives you are living are not positive or about love. it is a living hell that you choose to be in. i know it well. i chose to take care of myself and live. life is a gift from god, how you live it, is your choice. i am happy and at peace, and grateful to be alive. won’t you join me? leave she cant love herself , so she cant love you, like you love her. put on the big boy pants hi everyone, this is my very first post on a forum so it’s kind of a big thing 🙂 sorry for my bad english, hopefully you’ll understand. i am in a big need of getting this of my chest because i’m going crazy dwelling over this in silence. talking to my wife about it is pointless because she will be extremly upset and start telling me how wrong i am. i married the love of my life 4 years ago. we have dated since 2006. so yes 8 years now. i fell inlove with her livlely personality. we have had so much fun together but our relationship has also been pretty hard for me. she have been extremly flirty with other guys. in the very beggining i tried to just brush it off but it kept going. all our friends (and i mean all our mutual friends, kept telling me how she is flirting, i’ve also caught her in many many lies. then a rumor surfaced that she had been with another guy. i ofcourse talked to her about all this and she kept getting really defensive and saying that all these people are liars and that i should trust her. even her mom wrote me a letter telling me how thankful she is for how patient i am with her?!? did even they notice these things? after awhile i had to make a decision. either i leave her or i start trusting her. i choosed the second option. (atleast 50% haha) i had to stop acting on it atleast. i shut it off, stopped thinking about it. this was slowly eating me alive. more lies came up but there was no way i could have a talk with her about it because it always turned into us fighting. i could feel how all this affected my personality. i became that akward guy who had a hard time being social (no offense, i like akward people :). she started complaining that i was so “down”. i told her that i was depressed but that i loved her so so much. that it had nothing todo with her. (i guess i lied to myself aswell when i said that i was depressed because of other things.) then i found a quote on her computer that said ” that awkard moment when you’re falling inlove and all you can think of is “oh crap”, 2 days later she left me. this was now 2 years ago. she had all these explanations on why and everything was “my fault”. she started seeing a guy 1 week after she left me. that ended within a week. then off to the next guy. same thing there, ended pretty quick. she kept finding trust in all these other guys. 7 i belive it was, in just a few months. i was completly broken wondering what really went wrong. she started posting 10 photos a day on instagram/facebook etc. seeking so much attention that my friends asked me what was going on because they thought it seemed alittle over the top. the photos was either about how “awesome her life is” or a depressed comment about something. sure i’m not judging. we all grieve differently. around this same time i felt my peace in god and it was extremly calming. sure i was struggling every day but i could always come back to prayer and instantly i felt his peace come over me. this was new to me because i had always been an atheist in the past but thru many years of life i finally found my way home to my father. my wife was raised in a christian home and in the beggining this was foreign to me but i always respected their believes. (becoming a part of their family was my first real introduction to jesus). i started to really work on myself. even tho i can ramble about how my wife has been i still am a true beliver that noone is perfect and i wanted to get to the bottom with myself and try to become a better/happier person. i have alot to learn. 6 months ago, she reached out to me after months of silence. she said that she have had a demon in her for many years, but that it was now gone. the demon had caused her to have her eating disorder that she has been struggling with for many years and also her problems with lust. she told me she had found her way back to god and that she is a different person now. that she no longer is dealing with those things. she told me that she loved me and that god had told her to go and make it right with me. i was ofcourse really happy. i must admit that this demon thing kinda freaked me out. remember i pretty recently found god and yes, beliving in jesus and the bible also means that there is a dark side to it aswell, satan and unclean spirits. i don’t want to focus on that but yes i should be aware of it. either way…i was pretty freaked out about it because my only experience with that stuff in the past would be some bad movie. i had a hard time beliving it 100%. i was very happy to have my wife back tho. couple months down the road her eating disorder came back. i wanted to be supportive ofcourse but it also raised a question in my head regarding that demon. she had told me that this problem was gone together with her lust? we are from 2 different continents and i’m waiting for my visa to be able to go back there to be with her. she came here to visit for a few weeks and it was really nice but she went back home and it has now been 3 months since we saw eachother. ok, so now after explaining what has been happening in the past i will now talk about what is heavy on my chest right now. i’m starting to see the old habbits coming back. this is really hard considering us being seperated by a massive ocean. one of our mutual friend called me everyday for about 2 3 weeks telling me to be careful because he had felt her being very sexually seductive towards him. i was praying everyday and i decided to not worry about that because she told me he was lying. (sounds familiar?) she never calls me, i’m always the one calling. lately when i do call she says her voice hurts really bad and that she should not be talking too much, but then she goes out to shows and coming home 3am. seems like a really bad excuse. might be the truth but please…..i’m asking for 10 15 minutes. we basicly just say: hi, goodnight, love you! for weeks now. i called her a week ago feeling really down. without it not really being about her. just life in general right now. i wanted to talk to my wife about how i felt but it turned into her lecture me about how ‘her friends that have lasted is the once that does not give them guilttrips if they’re not hanging out’ ??? i was really confused. i had just told her that i missed her and that i’ve had a couple days where i felt little down and that i wanted to talk more. after that phonecall she has been acting really weird. saying that she only have 1 hour off from work this whole week. then still she has been going to a show everyday. except for last light, (yes she did not call the only night she had off). starting to post tons of photos again, liking photos posted by guys she slept with during our seperation.. yes i know.. this is not a big problem but it is like i’m re living the moment when she left me 2 years ago. all i want is for my wife to ask herself an honest question…if she’s capable of loving. i know this might sound harsh but i mean it. i know that i’m in no way have the medical education to give her a diagnosis but when i came across this website it felt like a knife penetrated my heart. things like: ‘they are so focused on themselves, self absorbed and self interested, that they cannot really “see” their partner as a separate person.’ even the explanation of how it affects me: feeling lonely, feeling like her accessory and that i’m out if i fail to fill her needs. this post got extremly looong but i want to round this off by saying, that i truly love her and that i want to make things work. with god nothing is impossible. yea, sure i might be slight codependant but i could go to another forum right now to post just as long post about how she’s also the most beautiful, talented, smart woman i’ve ever met. i love her dearly and a post this long just with pro’s could be done aswell. thank you for reading!!!! /matthew kate jean attention seeking lolol exactly, no one could possibly understand the suffering, unless they have been there! i feel like i just woke up from a nightmare, asking myself ” is it possible that a human can do this? why have i not heard of this before? am i crazy ?”!!! i have a little boy that loves his narcissistic dad all the stories that i read is what i go through too i want to leave but what about my son ? its easy to go back to what you knew. no matter how bad. many divorced people get back together for short times. because it is what u know which can be comforting. if the narrcisit was bad at first meeting you would have left. no the narrcisitis. in the beggining is attractive maybe even interested in you and then u have been sucked in to the craziness of a narcisitisis. forgive my spell check. grab that wonderful girl who gave u a 2nd chance. run like h e l l who away from the narcissitist. who will poison all she touches. get away. explain to that new wonderful girl that a narcissist is damaged and damages others and promise you will never talk see hear or be near the narccisist. ever again if you want to be sane. let the narcissistist. for mental health professionals . hi margaret, if i can give you any advice after the last 9 months of being with a narcisist that i loved dearly is. .. leave. i’ve just left myself. i have studied this now, spoken to many people. the the narcissist is not going to help you. you can only help yourself. i’m once divorced and have 2 children. i met a woman through friends who i feel in love with. the first real love connection since my divorce 4 years ago. this woman is one of the most attractive and intelligent women i have ever met. i would have children with her. she told me that she loved me but. ..i have never felt so alone as when i was with her. i couldnt understand how this person could say she loved me yet act in the reverse. i had to look at what she did not what she said. so always seeking the attention of men it was embarrassing. as of i was not there. i’m a big guy, good looking, i have presence, and other men would look at me like are you with her or not, because she is giving me the come on eyes. i’ve never experienced anything like it. when it was in her interest, she would considered and loving, when we had no plans, i could get no attention from her. it was that obvious and she didn’t even consciously k know she was doing it. bizarre. for my own sanity i had to leave. constantly on facebook posting photos and looking for attention. rated how well get life was going by the number of likes. in the end i found her on to website that sought financial arrangements for love. she blamed me that i was not giving her enough attention. my daughters could not understand why a grown up would behave the way she did. in the end my eldest daughter would joke. .. so let’s talk about me. it’s the hardest thing i have ever had to do. walk away from someone who in done ways was so beautiful but in others so ugly and hurtful. she will not change. she will continue to hurry the next man and the next and the next. confirmation for me was that the day we broke up, she went out that night and smeared herself all over facebook with another man and disgusting comments of what they may have got up to. i did not see them and the next night she claimed she was ill and she asked me to come over and stay the night so she had company. i agreed and she got up in the morning and left and i haven’t seen her since. 2 days later i saw facebook and the her photos with the other man. she had no words but just blame. very sad. broke my heart. but do much for the best. it hurts today still at the moment. but i don’t have that feeling of loneliness while being with her. she was mentally ill. i deserve to be happy as well. you must leave and find happiness. yes thank you to this website for making me aware. i actually was searching for answers thinking i was going insane. whenever i am feeling sad about my decision of leaving this person i simply read this and it brings back all the terrible memories of why i had to leave. thank you so much. i am a recovered narcissistic, 39 year old daughter of a narc dad. the relationship dynamics that prevailed between my mom and my dad reflected directly on the relationship between my little sister and i. she is the pure and spontaneous light of unconditional love that my mother is, and i was the selfish and fearful narcissistic, unfulfilled, incomplete person who was incapable to respect little sister’s sovereign personality. after 30 years of marriage, my mom had the courage to leave my dad with both her daughters’ blessings. he then entered a long period of self destructive drinking and personal chaos. i could barely stand his presence as he was angry at everybody for all these years. after 12 years, he is now finally becoming a 70 year old, happy, fulfilled person, the one he could never have become had my mother not left him. as to my own enlightenment, my sister was a mirror to my real obnoxious persona, and i had some breakthroughs which i can only describe as mystical. i am now in a new way of being and relating to myself and others. at the moment i am also trying to resolve a complicated non relationship with a narcissistic man whom i love and can “read” fully. i know that i have no other choice but to let go, for the sake of my peace of mind and his self discovery. narcissists can only grow when they lose everything they have, and not before. so much love to everyone. this is so true for me too, exactly. dealing now with my own codependency. so painful to be lied to by these narracists. i am focusing on fixing up my emotional life and letting others take care of themselves. peace and love. run as fast as you can girlfriend. my guy did the same way. seems after that one year mark they feel safe enough for their true self to come out and it only gets worse. been 5 years now. and i have told him to leave several times pointing out that i believe he is a narc. but he is in such denial it is getting very scary. it become a “me” world for them and it will drive you to drink unless you you are in a good church and have a good relationship with god he will suck the life out of you. xxx’s good luck me too, bertie and all the guys. she drove me mad and i nearly lost myself. this worked for me: i wrote down every incident i could remember when i felt bad with her. there were lots of bad times. too many. every time i become nostalgic about her i read that list to remind myself what a nightmare she really was (and still is) no point focusing on the good times when there was so much bad. would you eat a meal with a dog turd in it? of course not. if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, then it’s a duck. i fell in love with her wrapping paper but it didn’t take long for her nasty contents to become clear. so false and so sad. i now believe she will never change and that’s sad for her, but make no mistake: she is poison to me. go out with a different woman. it will clear your brain and there are so many good women out there. as the song goes: “gonna walk and don’t look back” cheers, johnno no, except perhaps in a way there is something appealing about the narcissist that you subconsciously like. remember they can be a charming as a sly ass fox, but one thing is for damn sure they will make you feel like you are insane.pleasee, please, please, please get as far away from a narcissist as you can before you snap and hurt yourself or them or the both of you. they are incapable of changing. once you are done with them, make a solemn vow not to ever ever ever have any further contact with them for the rest of your life.. iwish you well. its like going to hell and coming back to tell about it. my father was/is a narcissist. and my husband is too. we’ve been married for almost 7 years and we have two young daughters, 2 and 4. we went into therapy a few months ago to help us resolve certain issues, and therapy helped those specific issues. but the darkness of the relationship got to be too much. after a couple of years knowing my daughters were watching me being treated in the ways he was (typical stuff), i decided i had to change. i fought the control and belittling and manipulation. i found my voice and created boundaries. but it was only after recently reading an article about narcissists that i realized what the root of all our problems are. he has begun to change, because he has to. i won’t engage anymore. he’s trying to be a good husband. he wants me to be happy and for our marriage to be a good one. he had just started seeing his own psychologist (1 session). but the road ahead is long for him to begin to connect to his feelings, let alone his childhood memories. he has suppressed everything. what am i supposed to do now??? there has been so much damage. i have changed. there is a lot of good in him. he no longer uses those detrimental tactics. he is trying to connect. trying to be physically affectionate. trying to be a couple. i just can’t seem to. there is a void. a chasm between us. i don’t hate him but i’m not in love with him anymore. help!!!! i was married to a narc who was 15 years younger than me. i met her when i was 48. she was very attractive and following a whirl wind romance, we got married six months after we met. this was crazy behaviour but i had fallen completely in love with her and she told me that she loved me also. it took me about 2 months to realise that things were not right. her behaviour was really odd   always seeking the limelight and on a high one moment and crying with despair the next. she was manipulative and had a massive sense of her own self importance. she would threaten me with divorce if i didn’t comply with demands. we had three beautiful daughters who are the love of my life. i provided my wife with everything that she wanted but in the end we split in very acrimonious circumstance and i have not spoken to her for 5 years. looking back the thing that i find hardest to accept is that there are still things that i didn’t believe people were capable of. i was incredibly naive and couldn’t read things correctly. i was completely outclassed in deception and it is with some regret that i know it will never happen again. my life was nearly destroyed by this narcisicist but i managed to break free and i can now look ahead with a degree of confidence about my future. wow….4/14 will be married 24 years with 2 beautiful kids after years of feeling something just wasn’t right i went for therapy. my husband was a victim who became worst a victimizer. there is no end in site to his lies, deceit & betrayal. it has been exhausting to say the least. knowing what i have learned about this insidious emotional abuse i have set definite boundaries. i am quietly getting my life together, taking care of me, block him out & will be on the road to a new life. he made the mistake of confusing my love & kindness for weakness. i was blind but now i see clearly. trust me there is no end to this except to say goodbye & never look back! god bless you all. stay in faith and find your strength!! hi stepahnie, it must sooo hard on you….and its so absurd to trust narcissists. while we keep wondering if they are being true this one time   there is no way to tell. they are so intelligent and manipulative that they can fake it all. somehow all their instincts work to their advantage and they simply know how to reach out and win you over. your man seems to be making a real effort but how do you know if this is not just a coverup to keep in the relationship and finally control you. my advice is keep its simple 50:50 …be as normal as possible   demanding equality and fairness   and keep expecting your fears to come true . that way you will stay on guard…but will also be giving him a chance of a lifetime! all the best…. you can check youtube sam vaknin he is a pyschiatrist who has worked extensively on narcissists and you may find some answers… goodluck! yes, with god nothing’s impossible. maybe research borderline personality disorder. i think after everything you’ve been through it may be good to look at this from a mental illness perspective and from the angle of protecting and healing yourself. i think you will be ineffective in the world unless you look after and love yourself first. this may be beyond your ability to resolve and it is largely her responsibility to initiate and follow through with the healing process, if she chooses to. unfortunately you will never get anywhere unless she genuinely wants to get better and sadly she may not be ready yet. i think be compassionate, but look after yourself. you could have a read of this book: stop walking on eggshells by paul mason. good luck. dear matthew your wife is a perfect a case of npd / bpd , these people are not capable of loving and they never care for feelings of others if you wanna make her come after you show strength the more you become kind or loving towards her the more she will take advantage of you and its better for you to come out of this marriage slowly because in the end you will suffer more heavily . despertely need some help here i dont know what to do yesterday i said one thing wrong an he hasnt talked to me since im always aching inside i just dont know what to do or how to get over this i need help desperatly im such a damaged lost soul, he has me locked out of bdrm as well i met a guy online,the first day i went to his house we had sex and i also cooked for him. he is someone that doesn’t call which i know of and he sometimes told me he doesn’t do what girls expect guys to do for them. from my opinion i think he is a narcissist. i’m willing to help him out even if he doesn’t want to date me. pls how can this be achieved,help me out. what can i do? i care kathy, i finally gave my npd husband the boot after 23 years together of confounding punishments that never made any sense. all this business about if you just show compassion, you may turn your npd person around is really statistically unlikely. this guy got way too much of that from me and returned it with disrespect, cruelty, scapegoating and all manner of mean and rude behavior. i too was stonewalled, ignored and made to feel like damaged goods which is really all the last thing i am and never thought of myself that way before i was involved with him. i don’t know how far you will let him go before you can’t take it anymore, but once he started doing it to my oldest son, and more to me in front of all the kids, i had enough. and he would always blame me! these people will do almost anything to get a fix that is they steal your life essence in a futile attempt to prop up their soul less selves. it’s never enough. when your abuser is away, over time, try to figure your way out who you can go to, where you keep your money, how to bring along your kids etc in secret. have an action plan. he may be nice for awhile and then become intolerable so decide what your limit of abuse is. but it will be progressively worse as time goes by. if he finds out, he will outwit you these guys are masters of deception and want to win at any cost and try his best to crush you. you will find yourself again just keep imagining a life with no put downs, no punishable subservience, no neglect, no blame, etc. if the house is in your name, you need to get him out of there change the locks and alert the authorities while he’s out. even if you live on your own with only a pet, it’s better than with someone who makes you feel like killing yourself or living with your stomach knotted in fear as to what’s going to happen next, wasting all your time on needless, painful drama. it’s not your fault and you do not need this guy abusive guys do not change well actually they do usually they get meaner. get out, spoil yourself in little ways, and open your heart to other friends in the community, at work or in your family and i am sure they will help you heal. trust that they have been worried about you and want you to get better. take responsibility for your own self. tell yourself that his problems don’t need to be yours anymore and keep yourself busy shaping your new life in your new environment and do not talk to him again unless absolutely necessary! feel better try not to listen to him in the meantime think of it as pathetic bc that’s what bullying is. oh yetty, steer clear from such a person. you will be used and discarded when you are at your weakest. when you give to a taker they see it as a sign of weakness and treat you with an ever increasing load of disrespect. there is a great likelihood that you might suffer a heavy blow to your psyche and impair your growth and development to live up to your potential as a person by mingling with the distorted. advice please . i am in a ongoing 11 yr online relationship with a man who feels the need to lie , and cheat . i have forgiven him and don’t bring up the past unless provoked . over the course of 11 yrs i had 3 men who i dated , when this man i have been seeing pissed me off , blew me off and ignored me . i never kept it a secret from him , nor why i did it . he can do as he pleases with women online , accept cyber gifts , chat privately , be flirted with . he is the life of the party in any chatroom we go to . he always has been . when i call him out on any lie , or issue , he strikes back at me and has now began to threaten to leave me and never speak to me again . tonight in a discussion about why i feel the way i do about his lies to me , he strikes out saying he has neglected his son ( who btw is 25 and lives at home coz he cannot keep a job , just like his father can’t keep a job , they both have apparently volatile personalities ) to sit and be with me . from all that i have read he seems to be able to wear the title narcissistic very well … i know he has adult adhd just from dealing with him over the years , i suspect he may be bi polar as well , and i know he is a depressed person and speaks of suicide when we fight . he tries to make me believe i am driving him over the edge to kill himself , or to at the very least disappear . he is insanely jealous , i cannot have repairmen in my home , i have to hide the fact people even speak to me at times , if i am speaking to a male in a chatroom we are in and he see’s it … he prompts me that he is not dealing with that and i have sat quietly for as much as 3 hours till he decides we can speak alone in private . his mind changes like that of the wind . one day i can tell the world i love him the next day i have to be quiet , or its a fight . when i try and get him to understand that all this terribly upsets me , he just says … i can do nothing right , i’m a loser , i will leave you if you don’t get off my back … or he will tell me i am losing my mind and need to behave . ( his words are tho , i need to pull my head out of a** ) . he asked me tonight what do i expect out of him and i said … honesty … because our biggest problem is i call what he does a lie … he says we will have a nice dinner and private chat all weekend , then finds something else to do that causes us drama , serious drama , drama that you cannot recover from , and then he disappears for days . he begins fighting those demons and ignores me the entire weekend , knowing we may not have another weekend for months we can spend alone . ( his grown son lives at home and is always right there with him at the pc ) he enables his son to be lazy , he has taken time away from me when we were in pm to fix him food , bring him drinks , turn the ac on , change the tv channel etc etc … anyways , any time i try and show him how hurtful he is to us , he throws it back on me … i’m not a saint , but i damn sure try and keep him happy , when he allows it … he says i have a small mind , he has cussed me beyond anything anyone has done , i forgive him … but its getting old now and i know that i should have left years ago and just pulled one of his stunts and not come back for months but there is some kind of hold he has on my heart and soul … thats unexplainable . any words of wisdom other than that i should delete him from my life ? omg thank you for you answering me so it has gotten so much we were going through reallu tumultous crap for the last 8 months with many break ups in there he was with a girl so this weekend i discvoered his fb password and they are messaging each other daily it crazy she know i liove there wiht him she doesnt care shes a single mom with two kids who seemingly has her crap together i dont understand and hes telling her he lvoes her everyday i am in shock and cant tell him i looked as its a big hting for him to have that privacy they dont seem to be panning in meeting anymroe so why carry on im dont know what to do i really really need some help wow so i’m a narcissist i thought i was just conceded and love sort of makes me sick being inlove. i love all general people ugh i don’t know. matthew, your wife’s sexual behavior might be due to an addiction to sex. as a partner of a sex addict myself, i recommend you read the book “out of the shadows” by patrick cranes or “breaking the cycle” by george collins (both available on amazon). these books can help the partner of someone who is acting out sexually to heal. it sounds to me like she has caused you so much damage that unless she is willing to join you in couples therapy…. you need to leave her. you deserve better than this. understand you cannot change her   if she seeks therapy she might be able to change with your help, but don’t put yourself in emotional or physical (std’s) danger by staying in the relationship. i am abou tot get dumped in like 3 hours form now im freaking out im panicking hes been having an online affir hes just hating me righ tnow ive been dealing with crap for like 3 yrs im scared ot be alone i agree with jennifer. my parents were nice. i had a normal childhood. i never knew about personality disorders. i was very young, naive and trusting. i am by no means weak minded or insecure. i was just ignorant. i never knew what an npd/bpd was until i married one. mr. personality’s true colors didn’t show until after we were married. ten years after our divorce he is still trying to control manipulate scapegoat and blame me (through the kids) for all his problems. i am only replying to say there is no pacifying a narc. there is only one thing you can do, just cut them out of your life forever and go no contact with them. just a note about sam vaknin, he’s worth checking out for information, but it’s not because he’s a doctor,(he’s not really) he’s a psychopath himself. he calls himself a narcissist, but on a documentary i, psychopath, i believe, he tested as a psychopath. he has a forum that i found very helpful, but just keep in mind what he is. he’s extremely intelligent and what he says will be helpful to anyone in a relationship with a narcissist or psychopath (as they can be intertwined). he’s smart enough to have found a way to fulfill his need for admiration while helping others even if that may not be his primary aim. not good for your son to grow up around that. he will think that that is normal behavior. not good for your son to grow up around that kind of behavior. he will think that is how men are supposed to act. hi everyone, i have been with a narcissist for the past 20 years. we dated for 8 and have been married for 12. i started learning about narcissism a few years ago but wasn’t sure that he was. now i am completely positive that he is a narcissist and an alcoholic. everything is always about him and he is psychologically, emotionally, and verbally abusive. also, some of his family members are the same way and make our lives more difficult. it is very difficult to deal with people like this, they are never happy or satisfied with anything. they are very manipulative and controlling and will do whatever it takes to get their way. i have been on medication for 3 years because for depression and anxiety but, now realize that i will never get better with someone who brings me down and makes me feel lonely. i do have my own issues but, i am not a mean person like he can be. when i threaten to leave him he changes for a couple of weeks and then we are back to the same. we have separated in the past but, i went back to him thinking that we could fix our problems. now i am debating if a divorce would be the best decision since we have 2 beautiful girls and they love their daddy. i have 2 older kids and it has affected them that i didn’t stay with their dad, so i worry about the 2 younger ones going through the same thing. our families are latino catholics and have a belief that marriage is forever and you work out your problems no matter what. any advice? hello, i am currently in a relationship that i feel has fallen apart completely. based on the description, the love of my life seems to be a narcissist. i have never loved somebody soo much, but i also have never felt soo alone and shitty about myself. we seem to have a fight everyday  the majority of the time we fight over the stupidest little things, such as a misconception of tone(mostly). after every fight it somehow gets turned around into me being an asshole and the cause of our chivalry. like this morning. i was asked how i slept, to which i responded “shitty.hahaha i was a great danes bed.lol” for some reason, that set my girlfriend off. “i didnt feel him move at all!” she responded.”what do you want me to do about it!?” then it turned into “i have no clue why you are always in a bad mood or starting fights. you can just go home and stay home if you want to act like that.” i wont lie. i got very pissed off when she blew up. but i do what i always do to refrain from saying hurtful things  which was bite my tongue. she is not the same girl i fell in love with 9 months ago. i ask her constantly what i do wrong, why i dont make her happy, what can ibdobdifferently to stop the bullshit fighting, and always get “you do nothing” wrong in response. im not afraid to be alone. im afraid to be without her. and i just dont know what to do. i cry more now than i ever have in my life  including watching the closest person to me literally die infront of my eyes while holding my hand. i feel soo miserable and broken. i constantly have dreams of infideloties on her part  mostly the dreams consist of me findingbher and another man. i dont feel i can trust her anymore. she acts distant and very tolerant of me  as opposed to acting soo hoplessely inlove with me. she seems to have more care for her dogs and others than she does me. i treat her like a dutchess. and i get treated like a theiving peasant. i just need guidance. is my relationship fixable? can i ever get back the girl i fell inlove with? any help is appreciated. thank you. she also brings her ex up constantly. whether it is a story of what they did or what fun they had or how i “act like him”, he is always brought up. what does this mean? does she still want him? am i not good enough? i give her everything she ever wants or asks for. i do everything to keep her beautiful smile showing, and i get a fight for it. every time. i have a friend that always loved his home town and the people in it he would say those words often. a while back he moved away from his mothers because she married, i think. his mother sooned divorced. but my friend moved away from his home town tood a new job and married a girl and took he religion when he had always been dedicated to another. he is working ot and driving a 3 hours daily. on his day off instead of getting out with his friends doing his sport stuff he loves he is cleaning house. he participates with her family but she doesnt his and she seems lazy she has a job and now pregnant but she didnt help around the house before the pregnancy. he always tells how things are but then if you offer advice he takes up for her too. whats going on here? interesting… over the years i’ve become a narcissist. and it’s not because i don’t love myself, but because i finally do. and if people can’t handle that, i don’t need them in my life. honestly, though   i find those people in my life to be a distraction. it detracts from the time that i put into the things and people i *do* care about. so, if i wind up single / divorced in life. that’s their issue. i don’t need them anyway. okay, brandon, that’s not right. if the person can’t at least put you on their list to care about when you are trying so hard, you’re being treated unfairly. it’s not that narcissists can’t or don’t care about others than themselves, but that they put themselves (their needs, goals, etc) first. if they can’t even care about the people who care about them… that’s a totally new level that i dare not go to. spoken by a narcissist. serena, i know what you’re talking about. i’m a giver   it’s my love language. but, i can go for days   weeks   months, without any human interaction. just me and work and my research, and be completely content. and i need the person i’m with to be able to talk to me about my research, but not put it down. you become an obstacle, you’re gone. no detractions. the goal is the goal. but, according to this article, i’m a narcissist. hi   i am responding as to why someone goes back to a npd person. i was madly in love with one and i saw the over exaggerated part with his music and beliefs but i will tell you what captivated me. he lived a life larger than life. what do i mean? he spoke beautifully, highly intelligent, witty, fun and appeared caring. it was like a fairy tale   didn’t like to work felt work was a curse and that an intelligent person should not have to live a demeaning life they could find brighter smarter ways to make a living. i began to believe this while busting my little butt and paying for all the dates etc. so i will say this   we all have to provide a living   for me what drew me was the thought of life abundant. whose energy and conversation level isn’t zapped sometimes by just a standard 9 to 5 job. i have a lot of good qualities and talents but felt there was always more to life then life on the ant hill same traffic, same nose to the grindstone and so on. it swept me off my feet. i am trying now to do my same ole nose to the grindstone but use my little bits of off time to create my own beauty in my home, on my drives exploring, trying new music, culture and food. simply i want a more abundant life and there are only so many hours in a day but there must be balance the beauty we desire we are capable of creating until we meet our other half we must be complete within ourselves. i’m not recovered with an “ed” on the in i am recovering   it was a horror story and love story both. but i am getting there and now i have a clearer picture of myself because of it   i won’t be a doormat for anyone for any reason and i won’t be affraid to try “new” things which is what this person rolled up like “new and shinny”. i will always love this person but they will not allow it because i drew out the truth and in a fit of anger at how i was being treated i emailed it out to the family for ignoring this situation. yeah they can make you pretty darn angry and behave in a way that you feel shame over and guilt! but they don’t. hi, im not sure whether my partner is narc, however some of the things hes been doings is making me suggest maybe he might be. hes always striving for some sort of attention, never happy with my responses, he wants me to fully explain to him what i think of him instead of stating points. if we had an argument or so and i was in the wrong, he would go on about it for hours on end complaining how everyone has done a similar sort of thing to him, for example not calling him or texting him for a whole evening. naturally hes quite blunt, therefore he just states my mistakes and is always on the other end of the pole really. i don’t know anyone have any suggestions? because you want to be a victim, subconsciously. okay, so i am possibly a narcissist (male). i have somethings to say….. i am extremely self confident sometimes borderline arrogant and yeah i like to think i have to be the best at what i do but i don’t get why this kind of self view has to be completely a bad thing ? i have been always at the top of my class, got into one of the best schools, i am way ahead career wise (compared to my peers n friends of my age), i am becoming an accomplished musician among other things. but i doubt if i didn’t have (somewhat) narcissistic view of my self from a young age, i would have achieved what i have so far in my life. am i selfish ? answer is yes i am. but i ask you who isn’t ? i would also like to point out that we as human beings we are not perfect and labeling us with terms like narcissist may not the solution to the problem (if any). it’s easy to criticize/judge others and call them narcissists and blame every short coming and downfall in a relationship on the other person (which is something a lot of people in this forum are doing) but in reality it takes “two to tango” as the saying goes. cheers. this is a great posting. i hope you are getting over it all. let me share my recent experience. my girlfriend informed me yesterday (by bb) that our 1 yr relationship was over the reason being that i did not agree to rent a car for her   i did not agree because she does not have a full licence nor insurance yet she wanted me to rent it in my name whatever the consequences for me. given the dangerous and illegal circumstances i said no. and for daring to say no i was dumped. she then put a whole tirade of messages on a her personal blackberry messenger (bb) that she loved getting her own way (” i love being stubborn and getting my own way love me or leave me, bcuz its ur choice, i don’t care”!) and other messages   that she didn’t like wimps (apparently im a wimp now!), she liked bad boys; liked her men ‘hot and spicy’(that’s what she once said she like about me!) , that these old fashioned men were useless (i.e. me well i wasn’t before!) and other messages. i’ve done a lot of reading today because i could not quite understand that more and more recently there was nothing i could do for her that was ever enough. and i found the car rental response form her a bit extreme! i am 46 with a good career, professional, own business, academic practitioner, nice house, big dreams, two lovely well balanced girls from my marriage. she is 29, single mother with three children, and lots of courage, grit, determination to improve her life. we met when my marriage was coming to an end and i was going through the divorce   we knew each other for several months, we would bb each other and then we had a lovely date and she said, ‘i told my friend i would hook you and i did. and now i’m not going to let you go.’ i was smitten and felt i had found a loving caring, gorgeous partner to rebuild my life with. she was so supportive of me, proud of my career, took a lot of interest in what i did, my children etc. i was not even that concerned when she told me to bb her all the time to let her know where i was, what i was doing, when i got home safe etc. i found it endearing that she seemed to care so much. we would bb each other all the time. we would talk all the time too   it was all very obsessive. perhaps too obsessive. i found it a little bit odd/annoying that i was never allowed in her house for the first six months of our relationship and that i had to ring her from outside the house to let her know i was there and then had to wait..and…wait..and wait in the car for her to come out. i got frustrated that we would agree to meet and then it would not quite happen, or she would be late but i put this down to her culture and would make excuses for her. she made it clear that whilst there was no rush, she wanted me to put a ring on her finger (with a bigger diamond then the one i had given my first wife) that she wanted us to get married in jamaica, have a house together with her kids, have a baby before she was35, set up a business together and so on. she wanted to meet my parents (when she was ready) but sometimes got annoyed when i would spend time with my children to the point of jealousy. more recently she had cosmetic surgery again   she is a size 10 anyway but insisted on spending her money on liposuction etc. i even went to the hospital to look after her and care for her. she was pleased i was there she was in so much pain. as beautiful as she was in my eyes she insisted she had to do all this to make her feel better. its taken her a few months to get herself back to feeling normal and recover and during that time i would see her but she would not want to go out. she wanted for nothing from me   nice clothes and shoes that she chose, handbags, breaks to paris, new washing machine. i have helped her out with her children, i bought her the puppy she wanted…there was nothing i would not do for her if i had the money and the means to help i would. whenever we went our i paid for everything. just after her surgery we had a ‘moment’. she got so angry with me one night because i told her the route to the car park from the mall was one way and she insisted it was another (i was right). but she shouted and screamed at me in the car all the way to her house, told me that how dare i think she was stupid and act the big man, that she was going to throw out all the gifts that i had bought her and then deleted me from her bb and told me we were over. the next day she calmed down and we were back together again. however what i was finding more and more after the ‘honeymoon period’ was over was that she was criticising me more and more and complimenting me less and less. there were good days and bad days and it changed from day to day. i never quite knew what version of her i was going to get. but we would bb and speak to each other every day and as from the early days i would always let her know when i was home safe. indeed until yesterday every day i always sent her a ‘good morning’ message. two weeks after valentines (a week after the mall incident above ) she asked something of me that was simply beyond my means and she then rubbed my face in it by telling me how her ex was there to help her where i couldn’t. that was tough to take. she made me feel very very guilty and useless. it seemed that everything i had ever done for her was forgotten. however we started to overcome this setback and i thought we were getting back on track. the past month has been pretty good . we would still bb each other every day and more recently she would phone me several times every day to see how i was. and i would do the same. we were back on track and getting closer again after her surgery. but there was a sense at the back of my mind that something had changed. more and more it seemed i could not do the right thing. she told me i was not treating her right (even though i was buying her nice things). i would buy her nice things and she would tell me she could have bought them herself and didn’t need my money. more and more she said i was dumb, stupid, made fun of me in front of her children and encouraged them to do the same. i started to feel useless, lose confidence and felt like i was treading on eggshells most of the time. there were moments when she would be loving and caring again and give me some hope but it was not long before she would again take great pleasure in ‘bursting my bubble’. and then last week. on tuesday (after easter) we went out for the first time in months . she said i was not buying her nice things the week before so we went to the mall and i bought her what she wanted and we then went for dinner to one of her favourite restaurants. again all my treat. she asked me if i was still going to jamaica with her in july. we talked about the future and we had a nice time. on wednesday i drove her to her son’s school for an important meeting and “saved the day” by also sorting out something with the puppy that night. but i knew as soon as she told me that i was probably 24 hours away from being seen as dumb again. and so back to the beginning of this posting. on thursday morning she sms’d me and asked me when was i was going to sort the car rental out for her and when were we going to have sex. i realised i could not sort the car rental out for her because it was illegal and would have got her and me in very hot waters. and so i sensed sex would be off the agenda too. i was right. she called me and said she would soon be sending me a bb message. that message was disgusting and hurtful. she told me how useless i was, that she gave up on me and because i was not going to help her with the car rental she was going to have sex with her ex that night because she was horny and i would not be needed in that department again! she had broken me. she upset me terribly we spoke that night (she did not have sex with her ex!). she told me it was over. i was no use to her anymore. friday night i emailed her the reason why i had not agreed because she had clearly not understood the full implications for her and for me. but she did not care one bit. she said the email was pointless, i had wasted my time and none of it got through to her. she was not bothered in the slightest. as far as she was concerned i had again let her down and had not done what she wanted. in her mind i was now worthless. reading all the postings today and more on the web i now realise what a narcissist she is. i feel i have been emotionally abused and all the signs suggest she is a narcissist and may indeed suffer from npd. she has a history of depression in her family so i do not know if this is connected. i realise as i am writing this she has long forgotten about me and could not care how i feel about all this. interestingly she has not yet deleted me (unlike previous times) from bb, perhaps in the hope that i will reply so that she can get her ns fix from me again, or that she can rub in my face that she has met her new ‘bad boy’. she has her ex (now ‘ex ex’!) still in her life so she can get her ns fix so i guess she wants me (the new ‘ex’ in her life too) to get her ns fix! i would like to think that she realises that she has made a big mistake and that come tomorrow’s school run when she is back on her own again and climbing the walls she will be wanting me back. but i realise after all the research how unlikely that all is and how i could not ever take her back, because it looks like i have a had a lucky escape. i realise she has a low self esteem and needs to surround herself with material goods and gifts that make her feel good. that she uses her looks and her body to feel somehow worthy because she feels she has nothing else to offer. that she likes ‘bad boys’ because that is how she sees herself. that she cannot love me because she can only love herself. that the beautiful caring person i fell in love with was just a mask and that as we have got closer and closer she has got more fearful and her mask has finally slipped now that we are well beyond the honeymoon period. that the dream of getting married, living together and building a better life was just a dream for her and could have turned into a nightmare for me. what you are feeling is completely normal. that sounds crazy, i know, because you’re feeling deep grief about someone who is treating you like garbage but you must understand that it is his narcissistic behaviour that is making you feel and act in ways you probably never thought you would. the memories of the good times are so powerful and felt so good   probably better than you’d ever thought you could feel   that you are grieving that man. not the one who is behaving like someone you don’t know. you need to give yourself a break and understand that it has only been 3 weeks since he turned on you. that means the “perfect man” you thought you’d met must still be very fresh in your mind and heart. i don’t know any way to avoid the extreme heartache of the end game of your n. it was always going to be like it is now, but how in the world were you supposed to know that? he is behaving in ways that you cannot understand and that’s because they defy understanding by a normal person. it’s like trying to understand how a serial killer could do what he does. it simply does not exist in your being   you are incapable of understanding something so foreign. this is not about you. this is about your n. you are normal. he is not. and if you have to chant that over and over, chant it. write it down and put it on the refrigerator. you are behaving like a normal, empathetic human being in trying to understand how this can be happening. if you could only make sense of it. right? but you won’t. not now and not 5 years from now. because it doesn’t make any sense. i remember saying to my n husband, “i’ve never had a problem being understood by other people before; why don’t you understand what i’m saying?” i learned to preface every potentially problematic statement with “i am not trying to be sarcastic or argumentative by what i’m about to say” to try to prevent him from flying off the handle and telling me i was crazy for thinking/feeling the way i did. like others have said here, i kept thinking that if i could just find the right words, he would understand me and stop being angry and blaming everything on me. but it was doomed to failure. not long after i stopped expecting him to treat me like he had during that first year “honeymoon phase”, he met someone else and, without telling me he had, ended our marriage. he couldn’t even do that honestly. he told me nothing was definite and we just needed some time apart and i totally believed him   believed he wanted things to be better. within weeks he was living with the other woman. i only found out because i asked him if he was still wearing his wedding band. when he said no and i asked why not, the truth came out. his whole family thinks i was the problem. he cannot bear for anyone not to like him. he cannot bear to be wrong. i have never, before him, had the experience of doubting my own intelligence and ability to communicate but he is a master at twisting things around and i could never explain to anyone how it worked   i couldn’t explain it to myself, for god’s sake. i remember that, the summer we met, i was so happy that one day i literally had to dance. i couldn’t contain the happiness. and clearly, there is an inverse relationship between the amount of joy one feels at the start and the amount of misery experienced at the end. you can do this. you are better than this and you deserve much, much more than he could ever give you. i have a tendancy to make n friends. i realize that they are extremely good at attracting people into their social circle probably because their needs include constant attention. my neighbor invited me over the other night and didn’t say hello when i came in nor goodbye when i left. i looked around the room and all the guests were nice people who would probably be too shy to have a group of people over themselves and were happy to be out for the evening. without n friends i sit around the house and make posts like this. i am trying to make at least one thing happen for myself each day that does not feed an n person. i realize i have almost no balanced relationships and am scared of them due to low self   esteem. i believe practicing in small ways will help to form more balanced long term friendships and relationships. i would encourage others like me to do the same . maybe then narcissists won’t be running the show all the time. i noticed that my neighbor is jealous and rude to her guests if they out shine her or don’t give her enough praise ! yeah, if you think about we are every bit as sick as them , only the flip side. after reading a number of these posts its obvious we take way too much abuse and for far too long. no balanced person would get caught up with these emotional vampires for so long, and that is not meant as an insult. i do believe that anyone can be fooled in the beginning though and that is why relationships should not be rushed. it takes a long time to really know a person so why rush things. narcs are impatient too though, and they are hungry for attention , praise and possessions . their sense of entitlement is sky high though and countless people will be used by every single one of them. i have dated quite a few the last few years and appear to be attractive to them. i feel it is easier to get my balance back quicker now though and just need to build a more balanced social group to keep my head straight. narcissists like isolated people because they are easier to brainwash.. i used to go to sleep with sam vaknin playlists on to deprogram myself . after some time i needed more positive messages and switched to eckhart tolle videos. knowledge is key. astrid, your story really touched me. what a monster! i hope you are on your way now to happy living. there is not one standard test that proves that this is accurate. if you are aware where psychology test came from then you are aware of how dr’s are taught to diagnose people. if i farted and you read book that says if you fart and you were taught to follow protocol then like a whole ass not an asshole you are to gullible to follow your own instincts to be aware that someone is not crazy and you are just following information that is not accurate and you are just giving subjects toxic drugs because you were told to. scientists look outside of what they are told and figure things out dicktors have no clue an are in the wrong business. apologize for the typos.. but i am sure many will be aware of what i am saying it seems like i may have totally dodged a bullet. i recently took up a short term online relationship with someone i had dated back when i was a teenager. i had really begun to care deeply for him but… 1. he is separated from his wife and has been for years. no divorce in sight. lives only a minute away from the old family home, and is always reveling and bragging of tales about his awesome “parenting” and how well he “parents” with his ex. the youngest is 17, the oldest is 22….. 2. we began an online relationship, but he never wanted to meet up in person. we aren’t that far away. he would brag a lot about his job and his life and himself….i would admire him and respect him, and i really did mean it. i guess i was just feeding his ego, though. i also noticed toward the end that he was mentioning that he was drinking more and more while we chatted. 3. he treated me very well until holidays came up, then he would have never a second to speak to me, too busy “parenting” these almost grown children with his ex. it would make me really depressed that he wouldn’t even bother to make a moment for me, and i resolved to give up on him. 4. he contacted me again and i gave him one more try. all went well for just about a month, when he dropped the bombshell on me out of the blue that he was attending a concert with his ex and that his kids bought the tickets for them. i was like….”don’t you think that’s a little much?” and he exploded. told me if i didn’t like it, i’d just have to get used to it. i have never spoken to him again. he posted later on facebook how much fun he had at the concert and that his children also attended! i was so baffled, i would have never challenged him about it if i had known it was going to be a “family” outing with the children. i think he did this to be rid of me, because he has….. 5. immediately moved on to a “young mother” he plays online scrabble with. lots of facebook posts, etc. i have since blocked all that. i just have so many questions though….. a. was this person a narcissist? he was definitely pretty high on himself, his accomplishments, his kids. i’m not sure if i was dealing with a narcissist or maybe just a guy emotionally cheating on someone he’s calling his “ex wife”….. b. why was he still so super involved in his ex’s life? i’m pretty sure he is separated for real, but does he just not want to give up the power he has over his ex and kids? he kept saying that he and his wife split up because she wouldn’t have sex with him anymore….it seemed like to him a marriage is over when there is no sex, but all the other normal day to day issues of marriage were still very much in the picture. to me, that’s……kind of still being married! c. why didn’t he want to meet up in real life? what was he hiding? it’s not like he was a complete stranger…i knew him previously! we have friends in common! d. was i really just nothing more than someone for a narcissist to feed on? someone to pass the time in the evenings after work because his family seems to have exiled him to live separately from them? e. why do i even feel sad about this? i really did care for the nice guy friend part of him, but i had all the red flags in front of me (waving all over the place!) and even though i struggled with it, i threw him over the moment i felt beyond disrespected. i had so many other things in common with him though….it just hurts because i felt like i’d found someone i could relate to, and doubting i can find that again. f. i’ve read all the other posts and i feel for those of you that have invested years in narcissists….i have learned a lot today. sending all of you love and strength to carry on…. g. does anyone feel like soothing my emotions a little and explaining to me what you think? he made me feel like a nobody several times and it has kind of messed with my head. i realize my situation is nothing compared to others here, yet i’ve had a hard time consoling myself. i keep thinking if only i’d only been a better friend…..shaking my head. feeling sort of stupid. to “infant”….. i don’t think there is anything wrong with narcissistic traits as such, and they are useful towards becoming a success in the world. it’s when the traits overtake the person, and they become callous and uncaring towards others….that’s when the problems begin. you say you think you are a narcissist, the most important thing you need to remember is that everything is not “all about you!” that you may be hurting others with your actions…or your inactions! if you can work on recognizing that this is something you may be doing and take action to prevent this sort of thing, you can hold the “narcissistic beast” at bay, and revel in your successes and the praise of others, in a good way. 🙂 i was married for 17 years to a narc. he made me feel like i was crazy 🙁 we had 3 kids together….i had left soooo many times & he always seemed to talk me into coming back. i finally left.. hired an attorney, got restrainting orders & had my family as support ! you can’t move forward without support & you have to be honest with yourself & family. spent 7 years in divorce court ….. he convinced our children to live with him & they did , he stopped working, lost our home, insurance, & stalking me 🙁 he tried so hard to destroy me… i had to cut him off completely .. no phone calls & no communication. he manipulated our children to hate me. i was losing my children to him. it was the hardest fight i had ever had! sadly he died in a motorcycle accident…. yes , i was sadden by his death, but got to rebuild my relationship with my children. they now know the truth about him being a narc & how he destroyed our family with his behavior . i did go get therapy for a few months to help me understand….it’s a lonely world your in. i am finally rebuilding my life slowly…..yes ..my walls are up. after this type of relationship i’m very guarded . after reading this, mich, it seems to me like you are the one that came out on top! just think, he got that poor girl pregnant and she is going to have to deal with him for years and years with no way out. meanwhile, the stars favored you and you are free to live your life without any input from him! congratulations for getting out of a relationship that he was willing to abandon at the drop of a dime. you sound like a smart person and i hope that you will find the happiness you deserve! i am a narcissist. i have come to this realisation after nearly destroying the woman who loved me so purely for 20 years and poisoning my daughter against her. she has left me previously and i wooed her back with my narcissistic mask. i came to the realisation that i was living a lie, and at that point thought i was a compulsive liar. i admitted this to my wife and came clean with my deceit and honestly (i know you will find that word hard to believe coming from the likes of me) examined my life and my need for self affirmation from others. i am trying to turn my life around. i take responsibility for my actions and the damage i have caused. i am truly humbled and am changing my ways; i despise the person i have been. i tried to explain this to my wife and help her heal but she could not understand until i discovered about narcissism after googling “how do you deal with someone who has lied to you for 20 years”. is there hope for me? is there hope for her with me? everyone says a narcissist cannot change. i would rather die than not change. please, i do not want to give false hope to anyone who loves a narcissist, but i am attempting to turn my life around, not just for my wife and daughter, but for the good of humanity. people at work have noticed a change in me, which encourages me greatly. i have told them i am going through a “midlife crisis” and critically examining myself and purging impure aspects of my personality. or am i fooling myself? is this just an attempt for me to create another, more deceptive narcissistic mask? my sincere apologies to all victims of narcissism, i welcome any response. i have recently broke up my 2 years relationship only for this problem. my partner even dont know that he he is suffering.maybe he loves me lot but all the time he tried to show me that he is the best n right . he wants to come back again but the way he behaved me that’s really not describable.dont know what i have to do now . i love him lots n also tried more then 1 and half years to make him well. i am in a rather toxic relationship. i am in love with this girl. but she makes me feel inadequate. she always likes to go dutch no matter how much i protest. she recently complained she is not feeling how i am not looking for a better job. says my current one is humiliating. we work at the same place!!! but she’s found a new job lately. leaving for another town in the next 2weeks. the problem is she always entertains lunch with other guys. they buy her all the things i can’t… they take her to the cinemas anytime she has her day off. when i confront, she just says they are friends. she has never apologised, ever! replies my “i love you” only when she sees my countenance. she cares sometimes tho. buys me gifts and sorts smetimes. i just really love her. a guy brought cakes and stuffs for her in d office and she offered to share and i got angry. i yelled at her. i think i shouldn’t have. mayb i’m a tiny bit of a narc too. i just want her all to myself. i really miss her. we haven’t spoken in days. what do i do?… by the way, i am looking for a better job. and there’s more twist to this story. she is my brother’s ex and i think he’s starting to suspect cos he’s been cold lately. and she was the one that did the wooing. she just came up to me and said she liked me. i am really crazy. i trust your judgements here. help!!! i stumbled across sam vaknin by watching corey wayne’s video’s where corey addresses ‘passive aggressive’ type people. my ex fiancee is classic passive aggressive ( without knowing it ) and what astounds me is that these narcissistic people have these traits seemingly innate. listening to sam’s various videos hits home every time. my female narcissist partner was wrecking my health taunting me with cruel texts about pulling men in nightclubs , twisting round everything i said, and taking advantage of men ( although i am not ) 20 years older than her to worship her .she loved the power she had over us all and i pity the next victim. to retain my sanity i had to end it and in just over 18 months ( she was hinting at getting engaged after about 2 or 3 weeks, classic narcissist again , we did : all fool me ) i had gone from confident and outgoing to internally a destroyed and broken man. no more will she control me and i will never put up with this behaviour from another woman. i should have stuck to my gut feeling and ended it after the first 2 months ( she presssed the right buttons so to speak and begged me to take her back. then a never ending cycle began : rinse wash repeat ). nearly put me in a grave. never again.﻿ i believe the narcissism of are world stems from the like button, it forms a means of self validation that we all crave because we all want to be something or worth something. in believing we evole and develop through life, shows a younger generation to focus on this to obtain happiness or just some form of being. his name didnt happen to be carlos? i am currently and have been in a relationship with narcissistic person for 20 years i met him when i was 17 yrs of age i was in a relationship when i met the narc, the narc decided that he wanted to possess me (unbeknownst to me apparently it was love). the past two years people who care about me have been telling me about his behaviour, for an example he blames me for his problems but it came to a point where the people he was using for affirmations got to know me compelling them to let me know what he says. my family sees that he loves me but he so deeply insecure with himself that his default is a narc. he use to flirt, check out woman thinking they didn’t know, and that he himself thought he was not doing this or that the women he was doing this to did not know that he was perving at them (a case of if they don’t see me it didn’t happen, although all of us know that if someone admires you from afar or behind your back you know) he says he didn’t want to take things further it just made him feel good although the women he did this to thought no harm was done as they did not want a friendship with him anyway, passing ships and a little entertainment to make the day go by or even gave them affirmation that he couldn’t help it getting possessed by their beauty as he was clearly married. in the 20 years being married to such a person i have been anorexic twice, been a drunk/alcoholic for many months in a year and many other illness’s but always ended up looking after myself in the end so i did not die. i have worked in the health industry all my life, a case manager for the terminally ill, mentally ill, aged and youth. i have genuinely helped people in all stages of life, and i think this is part of my illness being with a narc. he lied to be consistently and i believed him thinking people like this cannot exist i thought quiet simply ‘isn’t it enough that we are born and will die one day that life is hard enough to not appreciate life and respect differences in people and to not judge where they are coming from but to help in the moment to enjoy’ wow my simple way of thinking really stuffed me up. the past two years being aware that my “partner” is a narc i have stopped working i don’t go out or talk to anyone although my family that i previously cut off from my life are a part of my life when i allow it respecting my wishes. i spend my time arguing to a person that has fruitless arguments simply defending an ego that i cannot understand how anyone can think they are that important, it baffles me so much that anyone can be like this ever. my narc partner use to medicate himself on a daily basis for 25 years with marijuana. the past 2 months he has completely given up marijuana giving himself a chance to have a clear mind to be able to examine himself instead or reinforcing his ill ego and it has honestly helped, he sees his patterns, he has stopped his womanising, he has and is seeing that he was not a decent person for doing this to anyone around him let alone me, he genuinely wants help. the useless arguing has become less and more constructive conversations are taking place but to what price? my self esteem has never died although in the past i felt inadequate, ugly, stupid, unappreciated beyond a joke taken as a fool, unlovable, disgusting. but i never trusted those feelings because they were not true. what now you may say? i agree i have no clue my inspiration has dwindled considerably i guess i’m waiting to decide to live again. spill your thoughts to me i appreciate it 🙂 my best friend and study partner in school is married to a narcissist. our friendship borders on a very thin line of whether or not it is appropriate since he is still married. however, i knew that he would have dropped out of school if i had left him to fight his home demons alone. my intention was and still is at this point to walk away from this friendship after we take our licensing exams later this month. school for him was a dream…something he didn’t need but wanted. his mother had encouraged him but died a few years ago. his wife is not supportive at all and often sabotaged his efforts and complained about the time it required. she wanted him to get his old job back….the one that he was laid off from (major company reorganizing and downsizing) and personally misses very much. anyway, you get what her personality is like. my question is about him. if he decides to leave her, i might be willing to expand our friendship. (i will not suggest this to him though). my concerns are that he tends to see “drama” in me whenever i am a little bit emotional. “drama” so does not define my actions…i am a quiet, keep my emotions to myself type of person. he has said harsh things to me that are highly out of proportion to the action. i almost ended our studying together over one however, when i confronted him, he was shocked and very apologetic. anyway, what i am asking…could he have narcissist traits too?…or am i looking at signs of survival traits for being married to a narcissistic person for so many years (over 20). what i know about narcissists made me believe that there is no way two could build a relationship together. so my gut says that these are just habits and thought processes that he has developed to make sure he didn’t disappear in a very unhealthy relationship….his way of saying, i am the man. i exist and i am here too! my question is to you…the survivor of a narcissistic relationship…what are the things that someone who would enter in a relationship with you (post narcissist) needs to be extra patient about. i am tore up inside about this friendship because i never would have allowed myself to become the emotional support for a married man in any normal situation. he has talked about leaving her but i don’t know if he will. (i try to avoid these conversations because i believe in marriage and hate to see them fail). i assume that he won’t because he hasn’t over all these years but kind of want to be ready mentally to know if i am willing if he does. schools out…after the licensing exam is over, we have no valid reason to spend time together anymore. that alone might be my real answer….but occasionally he alludes to more. hi, i love my boyfriend very much and stay at his house nearly every night. if i say i want to stay at my place just one night he turns around and dumps me. he’s only happy if im there 7 nights a week. what do you advise? it seems obvious to me that he is the narc. all you know of his wife is the picture he has given you. i myself being a survivor of a narcissistic relationship can say the traits to surviving such a thing are not (quote)” so my gut says that these are just habits and thought processes that he has developed to make sure he didn’t disappear in a very unhealthy relationship….his way of saying, i am the man. i exist and i am here too!” in fact the opposite if anything; you cannot defend yourself verbally, silenced by your life/relationship with a narc. this man is getting affirmation from you, please don’t feed it. you say you keep your emotions to your self an excellent candidate for the next victim. after your schooling has finished this ‘man’ will not contact you unless you contact him you have already fed his emotional needs and you have already emotionally invested in the relationship by thinking you might want to take things further. if you do end up contacting him he will use you to the best of his ability until you do not feed him anymore. once again it seems obvious to me that he is the narcissist and will not leave his wife; it would be useless to him not have a story to tell to draw people like you in! there are ways to mitigate this within a marriage. i’m a licensed therapist in georgia and have a lot of experience in this area of function and dysfunction. the key is for both partners in the relationship to know the problem and work on it together before major rifts occur in the relationship. i have been in a relationship for years with a person i now truly believe is a narcissist. recently we broke up again because he wants to be superficial, have only superficial relationships and be obsessed with making enough money to help millions of people, which he will sacrifice any relationship to do, his exact words. he says he wants me in his life only if we have light conversation that is only positive, he demands no negativity while he pursues a business venture that he is sure will make him a millionaire that will be able to save millions of people. while all this sounds good in theory, at least the helping people part, it concerns me that he demands superficiality and will sacrifice any relationship, be it me or his mother or sister etc….his words as well. when he said these things to me i was hurt but it sounded so weird, and as much as i tried to put things in a positive perspective on my end he claims i am too emotional and negative which he doesn’t want, though he also says he wants me in his life and wants to take care of me financially in the future. after putting in some of the things he does a lot (constantly talking about himself, controlling communication by ignoring me when he doesn’t like what i’m saying, threatening to break up with me for telling people “personal” information about him that threatens his image, blaming others for things he’s done, he says things are my fault, obsession with money and fame etc…)into google narcissist was the first thing to pop up. after reading the symptoms and descriptions i was in shock, because it all seemed so clear now. i am not mad at him and i do love him very much and i know he is a good person at heart, but i now know there is nothing i can do to change him, that in the end it is unhealthy for me and if i want to be happy the only thing i can do is not have him in my life as sad as it may be for me. i just pray that i can resist the temptation to go back, we have had good times and i felt like he was finally maturing and growing up before this recent bout hit like it always does. is there any hope for a narcissist to change, cause it doesn’t seem like it…..i’m hopeful that i can at least move on and find happiness. you really don’t give enough information about him to make a call as to whether he is a narcissist. you say he is your best friend, but you are going to walk away as soon as your school is over? that’s not going to happen! just be careful. he’s a married man, and he’s made some thinly veiled promises that he is going to leave his wife for you. that might not happen, and that is something that is going to hurt you very badly if he doesn’t follow through. i do think it is a very good thing that you have set a boundary of him leaving his wife before you will commit to any kind of physical relationship, stick with that! i hope this guy proves to be upstanding, but you must prepare yourself for the possibility that he’s just another married guy spouting the usual lies about how awful his wife is, and that he is going to leave her. guys like that are a dime a dozen, the ideal solution would be for you to break off from him and find someone that hasn’t made a “till death do we part” vow to someone else. but i can tell from your post that you are already much too emotionally invested in him and won’t leave him. let me know how things go, my dear….i am pulling for your happiness, whatever happens! thank you for your insight. however, he isn’t the narcissist…at best, maybe he has traits. i think he has survived so long in the relationship because he has been able to keep himself from disappearing and probably is emotionally the stronger member of the relationship…even if he is pretty beaten up. he actually is very good at silent caregiving…and avoids drawing attention to himself most of the time. we have just finished nursing school and i am pretty clear on what is and what isn’t narcissistic. at the beginning of the program, we have a family orientation day where the student organization tries to paint a realistic picture of how difficult this program is and how much the family will need to step up to help us survive. his wife walked up to the speaker after this big speech and asked “but who is going to take care of me?” he was mortified. i am stepping back from this friendship because he has some serious decisions to make. he has found a way to make it work for too many years to not do some deep soul seeking. maybe things will be better now that he has more time to cater to her again. thank you. we just finished nursing school and just the nature of what we are studying, it gets really easy to become emotionally intimate with your classmates. however, i knew that the end would eventually get here. i am doing some mourning about losing someone who i literally studied elbow to elbow for easily 6 hours a day multiple days a week for almost a year. i also have mourned losing female friends as they dropped out of the program along the way..it is just more real now since we are done. i can and will walk away but thank you for your concern. this is not the hardest thing i’ve ever had to do in my life. i do hope he can either work it out with his wife or find the strength to leave if there is hope for joy anymore. but i shouldn’t be the support system anymore. i did not say he said these things to his wife or anyone else…but rather i believe some of his actions and things he has said to me are his mental ways of fight to keep from being buried in his wife’s “drama”. we just finished nursing school. this is not the field for a narcissist…especially a male nurse. we work hard for very little attention or acknowledgement and the men have to fight a little bit harder to make it through a nursing program. there are no brass bands or awards and almost everyone has a hard earned grade point of 3.9/4.0 or higher. (mine is about 0.02 higher than his and he knows it). i find it interesting that you are quick to make assumptions about the person who is married to a narcissist….making a lot of assumptions that just aren’t grounded. that said, we have talked and he is still invested having a go of it with her. i wish him the best and hope he figures out how to find some happiness. he has more time to give her the attention she craves now. maybe it will. i do believe he has some narcissistic traits (but all of us do) and wonder if that is who he is or if he really believes that people interact that way since that is his experience. he actually is usually a very humble quiet man. i know things about him that would give him reason to toot his own horn and yet, he seldom dose. my basic question boiled down to how do you have a relationship with someone who is coming out a narcissistic one and what things to watch for? your answer seems to be that a survivor will tend to find narcissists everywhere and the survivor might be a very hard person to establish a healthy relationship with. good to know. (and yes…i can now see that what we had is probably an emotional affair. but to be honest, i probably had a very similar attachment to a woman (and we are both straight sexually) whom left the program our first year. you can’t help but become attached to people you spend most of your waking hours with in an very stressful situation. in the matter of weeks, i probably knew several of my study partners almost as well as i knew my husband after 17 years of a good marriage (he died). ) i do have a caregiver’s heart and have to watch that i don’t get sucked into needy people’s drama…but after having to make the decision to disconnect life support from the love of my life, i promise, i am strong enough to walk away from anything. quiet does not mean weak. reading all of these posts makes absolute sense that i’ve been in a narc relationship for the last 5 years. every time i do something he doesn’t like or against his thought process, he tells me he’s done with us and to leave. i’ve moved back and forth several times in the last 3 years because of him. we don’t have children together but i do have a son, and his disregard for my son’s feelings bothers me, but yet i keep going back, trying to make it work. i love him..and he says he loves me, but like all the other posts, once he gets what he wants, i’m useless to him until he needs something. i constantly walk on eggshells for fear that he will get mad and would rather avoid conflict. he too, thinks he needs constant attention from other women and feels the need to keep his exes in his life. he even calls himself “god” and laughs it off as a joke even though i know he’s not joking. i don’t know how to get away. how to cut ties and be done, every time i think i’m able to he draws me back in. oh my god anonymous! my wife after having our first child went through a phase where she walked around going ” i am so amazing! i am soo powerful, i gave birth to a living being! it is so amazing, i am so amazing. and on and on….it was a little disturbing. not that birth of a child isn’t amazing but spouting on for lengthy periods about how godlike you are is more than a little creepy to listen to….. you have misinterpreted what i have posted but it’s understandable when you have not been in a narcissistic relationship for a long period of time. please rethink why his wife said “who is going to look after me?” for some people who have survived a narcissistic relationship that is a survival trait. i agree wholeheartedly that silence does not mean weak it’s something that happens to a survivor, as some people in previous posts explained it can make you feel crazy or worthless that is why i do not agree with your quote for someone attempting to keep afloat in a unhealthy relationship “just habits and thought processes that he has developed to make sure he didn’t disappear in a very unhealthy relationship….his way of saying, i am the man. i exist and i am here too!” my apologies for any hurtful feelings you may have received from my opinion. i was married for 20 years to a narc man. i freed myself several years ago, and then read everything i could about the illness. one shattering thing they tend to do  and what was done to me is that a narc will pick a person who has attributes they secretly envy and want for themselves. i was intelligent, tall and very good looking, and the way my family lived made it look as though we were rich. i was in college, i’d been abroad, was talented musically and artistically, and in general, people liked me and i had many friends. none of this mattered to me, i had low self esteem and narc parents. i was also very naive. i didn’t think of myself as a ‘catch’. how i wish i could turn back time. this man wished for the things i had growing up  as he saw them. he grew up poor, 7 years older than me and a custodian. and he was small and ugly (i didn’t think so, then i just loved him). we used to have arguments in our 30s and 40s   he would be angry because i had grown up good looking and ‘could have any guy i wanted’! (not true, because of my self esteem. i didn’t date in high school). i could never understand why we’d argue about things like this, that were irrelevant to our life as it was. i ended up just feeling bad that his esteem was so low. he accused me, up to the time of our divorce, of ‘fooling him that my family was rich’, when i’d always told him that was an illusion of my father’s. he stalked me at times, because he thought i’d cheat on him. then came the time when i turned 39, our child almost grown, my looks holding up, but i was no longer “young”. so he finished his demolition work and destroyed me, as i no longer fed his narc food anymore. i ended up pithed, scooped out like a melon. he took all the good about me and destroyed it, turning me into a grovelling wreck while he towered over me screaming ‘you’re useless, worthless” and other great phrases. i no longer had friends. i lost most my teeth because he denied me dental care  even when i carried the insurance! and yet i was a trophy for him to show off (this is my gorgeous, talented, father is a novelist and art collector wife!), and then shred. all that time, too, he had been cheating and doing really awful stuff. of course i always felt something wasn’t right, and when i’d ask him what was up, or voice my fears, he’d turn his ultra concerned face to me and tell me how much i meant to him, i’d saved him, made him.(that was true i got him through college and into a very prestigious position while i flunked out, writing his papers). they take, then discard. i know, if he’d suddenly had a serious health problem, he’d have lured me back to take care of him while he considered his options and thought out another plan to find lots of younger women to admire and fight over him. (he was a medium punk rock star, and that was his focus and how he ‘saw’ himself  a cool star, surrounded by what he deserved: the best). if ever you have doubts about a partner, and they are not taken seriously. when things don’t add up. if you see flashes of extreme envy toward yourself (especially!) or others. if your achievements are not really celebrated. when the car is spoken to others as ‘his’, and’come see my new house’. if you are cut down while the other is raised up. when you wonder why this person loves, or even likes, you. i’d ask my husband, and he’d answer, staring deeply into my eyes saying “you are a good person, hon” but that’s not who i am! when they seem to have no sense of you as a person  my husband always bought me xmas/bday gifts that were just not me! it was a running joke in our little family. they seem to have no sense of shame, and force things to go their way.when you get the feeling you’ve just been ‘had’. when there is anything hidden, like finances. when you/someone mentions a profound event, good or bad, and he one ups you, and goes on to talk of himself. run away, as fast as you can. your life will be strangled, your gifts and true goodness warped or lost. your sense of direction, your moral compass, your vision of the world skewed, smashed. when i broke with him, and he realized the family estate (such as it was) would be shared, i was physically attacked (there had been violence all through the marriage), and threatened me so badly, told me he’d told the scary people he knew and who worshiped him in the punk world that i was a narc( told police about drugs and stuff). i was scared for my life, as were my siblings. his assault landed him in court, where i had to testify while he stared me down with the most evil look. because i ‘tpld’ on him. a 2 year restraining order, and some assault charge that carried no jail time, was put on him. he’d try to break this, calling my mother and asking if he could see me, etc, but i always got the police onto him. he stopped pursuing me. after that, i saw him only from afar, a few times, for those two years  but i always looked over my shoulder, i was afraid to go to the city where he had told people i had narced on them (turned out that was a lie, and many of those people actually liked me and felt really sorry for me!). for two years i struggled to get some life back.he immediately moved a lover i knew nothing about into my house (and onto my dirty sheets and used towels!) when i left  i’d left the home because he so considered the house ‘his’, i wouldn’t have been safe. at the end of those two years, to the very date, he showed up at my work, all sentimental smiles and flowers(!) and sweetly asked me to lunch. i almost fainted. i told him no, and never to bother me. but he kept popping up, acting all nice and  i realized his narcissism could not bear to have me in the world, hating him. these people are so dangerous. he once gloated over me, while we were divorcing, that i had been so easy to deceive (the whole thing is your fault, he said, because you were so easy to manipulate. so it’s really all your fault.) oh, i’ve gone on enough about all that happened, but there was so much more, just incredible, incredulous stuff! these people are killers, too. i have one friend who died suddenly, and i knew her husband was a narcissist. he sold her car and most of her stuff before the funeral (cremation) had a new girlfriend (really, a lover from his office) in the house in a month. moved to a new state far off in 5 months. my friend had some medical problems but  no autopsy. that could have been me, or you. i really think he killed her. i think that is a true risk with these people. leave them alone! they can be so enchanting, charming, almost addictive as my ex was. watch yourself while you are with them, then when you leave them  if they are not done with you yet, and you decide to leave, they will be absolutely wounded, and a narcissist is capable of things you would not even think of. they aren’t real people, the laws don’t apply. nadia, just because a man wants his ego stroked does not make him a narcissist. you also said you enjoy 99% of the time you are with him. you also admitted witholding compliments to him, meaning you are being willful. finally, personally having experienced narcissistic abuse from romantic partner and having since studied it extensively, yours is the rare case whereby you don’t make a convincing case that your partner is a true narcissist. how these other two women responders are urging you to “you go girl” without seriously consider your post also suggests there are others out there who dont understand true narcissism. to be blunt, you sound too ungiving to attract a true narcissist, so i would not worry about him. i would go into couples counselling if i were you. your relationship sounds mendable. see if you can get into therapy with someone good. if you were raised by narcissistic parents (who were themselves raised by at least one narcissistic parent *sigh*) you may have some tendencies. then you have the awareness to try to keep them in check. ok so what do you guys think of this.. trying to make it factual as possible… last year my husb of 10 yrs told me he wanted a divorce, started seeing another woman and eventually left. we are legally separated. 3 weeks later he called me to say he’d made the biggest mistake of his life and wanted to see if we could consider reconciling. he cut off all contact with the woman, and set about dating me, telling me he loves me and generally changing a lot of the behaviours that were not great before the whole sorry affair started. for my part, as soon as i knew he was in the affair, i let rip. i thought he must be mentally ill, a narcissist, a sociopath, and told people what i thought! privately, never on facebook, but only in private messages. we agreed we still loved each other enough to try and rebuild our marriage, so agreed to move in together again. after we made that decision though, he started questioning me about all the lies i had told people. he said he was happy to be judged for the affair but not to be labeled as a sociopath etc etc. he asked me to correct those “lies”   and i did. i emailed those friends and retracted those accusations. of course those friends understood i said things in anger and with a lot of heartbreak. it turns out he has had an investigator watching my emails and texts for over 3 months! i was shocked and angry, but he said he was justified as he found out “the truth” about what i thought of him. i felt like he was making me feel bad for my response to his affair. (in therapy now unravelling all this!) now we are living together but there is no trust here whatsoever. i don’t trust that he is not still snooping on my chats and he does not trust that i am telling the truth about him. but, we have a son together, we still have passion and fun together. as i get stronger with my own boundaries and what i will accept from him, i want things to improve but have serious doubts. any experts out there with thoughts on this one?? ps i’m seeing a counsellor too, but keen to hear your thoughts! oh wow you even use the terms i use about my marriage! “hes done with my bulls**t”, and threatens to leave. i feel i am “walking on eggshells” to keep him happy. i seem to spend far too much mental energy trying to figure out what he is thinking. he pretends to love me but the pretense falls away when im on my period and no use for sex! i’ve been there. always being made to feel inferior. after just two years a total shell of what i was. i went back a few times. i’ve found one reason we go back is “they” have convinced us that we are the problem not them. we’ve been made to believe it is all our fault. and “them” giving us another chance is all we think we care about. once i ditched her for good and educated myself on narcissism i decided to fight for what’s important, my daughter. none of her narc bs does anything or means anything to me anymore. i’m free! jeff/jay, wow, i thought i was in this alone. but my relationship resembles exactly what both of you have dealt with or are dealing with. after 10 years of marriage my wife and i divorced. when she was happy our life was great. but as the article states, when she got jealous or hurt she lashed out and would say some of the most hurtful things. and she would do it in front of our children. i would ask her to stop and not say things hurtful in front of our kids but she would look at them and tell them that they need to know that daddy is a nobody. i had to take my kids to another room and explain that mommy was just stressed or come up with any excuse to still protect this woman who bashed me simply because she didn’t want to be married anymore. i work for the oil and gas industry so i am gone a lot and my kids say they love it when i’m home because mommy doesn’t yell that much. because of that i choose to stay in this relationship because as horrible as she can be, the courts will never give me my children and i can’t bear to be away from them. i just don’t trust her judgement with them, especially when she gets angry. i too feel like a prisoner in my own home. so i have been searching for the issues my fiance has. he does not seem to be socially centered or life of the party to really fit sociopathy or narcissism but the inability to take critisism and his reverse arguing, the harsh words and yelling in front of the children even when i note to him that they are right their, watching… those seem to stick out more. let me explain something, i could also be seen as a narcissistic because i crave affirmation on a situation that has been directed to me, mostly because i am usually misunderstood. i often cant tell why someone would be mad at me and i point out things people do wrong. but i am constantly working on myself, to help me recognize my behaviors and when things are okay to say and when they are not. now, he on the other hand, never apologizes for anything, or he will over apologize (i feel to spit me) because i have talked so much on how he does awful things and never takes credit for how i feel about them. let me give you an example: this morning i smelled a pop tart in the toaster and as i walked to get my crying daughter i saw him standing their enjoying a pop tart.as i passed i thought to myself, that sounds like a good idea, i would like a pop tart. so i change my daughter and walk out with her, put her down to play and walk over to get the pop tarts. i see on the counter, two empty packages. i said, “did you eat all the pop tarts? he said yeah, our son and i did. i said, two packages?” he said “yes, i had one and our son had one.” i said, “well i was really liking the idea of the pop tart and i am sad now cause it smelled good. i wish you would have asked me if i would like some. (he will even make me things and eat them if i do not eat them fast enough or when he thinks they should have been eatin, drinks too) i told him it would have been nice for him to ask since their was 2 packages and 3 people who could eat (2 in each pack). he said “no, you should have told me you wanted one. how am i suppose to know you want one if you dont tell me? you should have been the one to say you wanted a pop tart.” i said “i couldnt possibly have told him because i was in the room with our daughter when i thought of it. i just wish he would think of me and arguing over a pop tart is pretty stupid.” to be honest i am just tired of always being last, not just me the kids too. when i try to show him he gets defensive. he yelled and kept saying “oh what do you know of social ediquette?(because of my autism) and ill buy you some damn pop tarts.” i told him “i do not want you to buy me pop tarts, i just wanted to be included in your thought process, hmm 4 pop tarts, maybe i should ask sarah if she would like one.” he got dressed and stomped down the stairs and slammed the door. i assumed he was going to work. he ended up coming back in the house 15 minutes later and threw a bag with pop tarts in them and said “here’s your pop tarts, i hope you choke on them” i was not surprised by the behavior because he does this often any time he feels attacked or critisised.(not just with food fyi) dude, they were pop tarts! i told him not to say things like that because our son was their, he said he did not care that he was their and mumbled more mean stuff. he then stomped down the stairs again and i told him he was being over dramatic for no reason and all i wanted from him was for him to acknowledge that he probably should have asked when eating the last of something. i said “why are you acting like this?” and he said “because i hate you and i hope you die”. then slammed the door again, leaving for the day. i know i know, pop tarts? really? not just to him, but to me too. i understand it was silly but if you can see how ridicoulous he gets over me mentioning something about his “behavior”, imagine him when he is wrong. or when he forgot to do something, or if i dont want him to touch me due to some sensory issues (not all the time, i mostly love to be touched), or how about when i make a mistake when i talk or mix my words up and how he points out every autistic flaw i have. i will ask him “can you please remember to put your clothes in the washing machine? i have been doing really good with keeping up on laundry” and he will say” well you dont blah blah blah when i asked (which is completely made up more then half the time but he truly believes it happens) he always turns things back on me and i point them out, and he gets more upset/angry. he cant handle being a “bad guy” ill tell him he has been ignoring me lately and playing too much video games and he will say “well i tried to do something the other night but you pushed me away”… umm again, he makes things up to make himself feel better. or he says things like “i do it all the time” and i will say, “ok if you did it today or yesterday tell me when you did it?” and he can never give me an answer for anything. ever. he is perfect in his head. he tells me often that girls hit on him while he delivers mail and good things are always said about him at work except when they are not. he always has to have the answers and has not problem pointing out when i dont do something. he does not fit the”i am beautiful” look of a narcisstic and he can occationally tell me i am sexy (when he wants something) but for the most part he plays his games and no one else matters, not even his kids. he lies. i have cought him. they are small and stupid, but lies none the less. he has occationally “tried” to be more for me and the kids but after 3 days or so he seems to get “burnt out” from all the extra “work” he has put into being with us that if i say or do anything he will flip. he blames much of the things on my meltdowns and tantrums but fails to see how he causes most of them. he can never see what he has done. he has been able to admit that he has issues, but he will refuse to go and talk to anyone. his mom thinks its all my fault because of my meltdowns but fails to see how synical and cruel he can be over the most minute things. he will only go to a therapist if its to talk about my problems. i really think in his mind he has none and everything he does is perfect and if its not, its because of someone else. the crazy thing about being married to a narcissist (for 26 years!) is their ability to blame everything on the spouse. they choose people with low self esteem, and proceed to destroy their sense of self. i didn’t see that i was a victim of abuse until i found out he was cheating. i now realize that he has been cheating on me, and manipulating me and everyone around me, for 30 years. it’s scary, it’s lonely, and it’s shocking. i don’t know who i really am anymore. omg! the last 5 years of my life i have been living ignorance, because i dint even know my husband suffers from narc ism groups. he always seemed depressed for such a confident and larger than life person. i thought i was just going thru difficult phase in life because of arranged marriage and my husband hell bent bringing all his sisters, aunts problem home. he was constantly criticizing me. he even manipulated my parents to believe that i was the one causing all problem. last one year i fought to gain my parents trust and make them see the real him. when me and mom fell ill on different occasions, it shocked my parents that he did not show slightest sympathy. i realized he was not available as soon as i was not feeling well for past 5 years. my husbands parents are primary cause as i tried to communicate and they responded in a manner justifying whatever their children do is correct. his evil sister is part of my husbands feed and uses my husband thru and thru, because he is doing the same to me. i am afraid i will go mad if i stay with thus guy. i want divorce, but in here society pressure is causing me to rethink my decision over and over again. i have become unhealthy, financially dented and emotionally tired. i thought of ending my life but decided i was too strong and have a daughter with whom i want to start a life with. i was in a relationship like this 7 months ago for almost 2 years… this person was amazing, personality, culture, all of it. i guess i was drawn in by how dependent i could be.. i don’t know, when he finally noticed me i was in the clouds and i even started to believe that because i was with him it would automatically give me more value as a person. he was beyond my control, he never wanted to do anythign with me, but if i stopped giving the attention it would bite my ass. the thing is i only made things worse, i cheated on him with my best friend because i was so sick of our realtionship and of course a guilt trip was due, i dated my friend later thinking he was actually what i wanted and needed and he is a wonderful person (totally opposite from my ex) but i kept thinking of my ex a lot. after a while i also broke up with my friend because i realized how much i was still thinking about him and well, i couldn’t be in a relationship if i cared about 2 people right? im worried because after a while, my ex has changed so much, he has noticed many bad things in his life and has tried to correct them, and i can only feel that if he’s getting better that’s the guy i wanted to be with.. of course everyone close to me/him keeps telling me that it won’t work, because of the way he treated me and because i cheated on him.. but we keep sending all this indirect messages.. and sometimes im like ‘to hell with what everybody has to say if we still feel things for each other and for so long we have to try!’ and some other im like ‘we have feelings, obviously but we have to move on.. our love is broken and we have to grow apart’ … im gonna be sincere guys, i do want to try it again.. im waiting for some time to pass to ask him because actual situation doesn’t help.. but i don’t want to give up.. 🙁 how can someone have trouble in front of them/be trouble to someone else and still be not able to look away? i must reply to what you have written. your husband does not sound like a good match for you. you need someone more thoughtful and empathetic. but whatever you do, you must not kill yourself. your parents are still alive and i am hopeful they will help you to make a new life instead of suffering with this man that chooses not to cherish his wife. please promise me you will find another way. sending you hope, love, and strength. i have been married to a narcassist for 44 years but did not know this until i started researching 4 years ago! i am devastated at the time and energy that i have wasted just doing his bidding all the time and fighting for my own thoughts and independence. he constantly blames me for mistakes he makes should i dare interrupt his work, he is arrogant dealing with people, he is grandiose, rude, petulant, argumentative and always right! his temper is scary altho he has never struck me. he thrives on living on the edge and takes advantage of people to gain image. he puffs up if the females around him come to talk to him because then he can boast about what he has done, where he has been, etc. he is secretive…locks his phone, computer, papers and unless i pry i do not know what money he has. he shuns all household chores altho if pushed will do some tidying up, shopping of help move things. dont ask this man to do his laundry, cook, clean, pay bills, do paperwork, buy birthday cards or gifts, phone family or friends because it doesn’t happen! he arranges all travel and keeps his travel dates a secret until the last minute and i cannot plan anything for myself. constant reminders bring forth retaliation. he moves my things from place to place so i can’t find them, he breaks things, he finds it amusing when i get upset by his actions. he can’t say sorry even when horribly wrong and he has little sympathy for anything or any one. his family do not see what happens behind closed doors and think i cause a fuss. they think he is marvelous, talented and amazing. all the things which got me caught up with him now do not apply often in this house. only conflict of his making day in and day out. at the age of 66 there is no hope or going back for me but i would advise anyone dealing with this issue to get out and never go back. they destroy you bit by bit. thanks lou i really think you are right! i feel very free now and loving my independence…i hope everyone else can get through their npd experiences, i wouldn’t have believed it 6 months ago, but time really does heal 🙂 hi jb, i too am a victim of a narcissistic partner. i can’t 26 years. i spent almost 5 years. it has completely devastated my life. i understand about them blaming you   they’re always right   belittle you to no end  your self esteem gets shot. i relocated my whole life to be with the one who i thought was the love of my life. now, i am at a new place all alone because our relationship has ended. of course, he blamed me, but the hurtful things that were said totally destroyed me. i figured i would give him his space for awhile, you went online and conversed with a girl for 3 weeks and now he is flying her in town (4hrs away   55 min flight) on the weekends. i am lost and feel like i was punched in the face. soooo, devastated and scarred from this. totally changed my life completely. not sure how to move on, i can barely get out of bed   i cry every day. i know my family and friends are getting tired of me dwelling. they all constantly tell me to move. i’m not understanding why i am having such a hard time. i’ve had break ups and i was divorced one, but this has taken it’s toll on me. i feel i was beaten to a pulp mentally. he constantly would tell me i have no substance in my life. i walked on eggshells   he belittled me to no end. i wonder now, how long will the relationship last with his new girlfriend. this is going to be tough, especially living in a very small town. just makes me so sick!!!! never had such a horrific heartbreak!! i am currently going through this hell! we have broken up several times and i can’t break the cycle! it has gotten worse during the 4 years that i have stayed! you are so correct when you say you can’t describe it until you have gone through it. people don’t understand why we don’t just leave! maudie   i think you covered the nearly exact version of my husband and me   with the exceptions my husband was a very good looking underachiever from a broken home   what my friends called a loser but whom i thought was capable of everything he said he wanted. the envy, the rich wish then the destruction is classic   al part of the idealize, destroy discard cycle. and yes, there is a very strong belief they have that the law does not apply to them, and they will frequently research the law before you get involved to make sure they are protected by it and you are not, in so far as they will tailor their fraud from the begining to get what they really are after   which is not at all what they say they are. i am 61 and abandoned after 23 years   and yes, he says i was just stupid to believe him   they do not have the same values and they will leave you for dead   because you being alive is just one more proof they arent what they say they are. good luck, klh thank you!! you cared for her and put her above yourself, she made you feel guilty for what you were not responsible for, you felt sorry for her, you have conscious, she does not, you are human and she is not, you are honest, she deceived for her personal gains, she wanted you as one of members of her club for special occasions to fulfill her sick needs. you have/had things for her to feed her sick personality and supply from you. believe me, i have been there, i am still struggling after 9 months of break up . relationship was only for 6 months and she sure was good at deceiving me. she knew / learned about my weaknesses, took advantage of me financially , and broke me emotionally. i cannot believe this happened to me but it did. she even filed criminal charges against me the day she moved out. i cleared my charges. she told police to charge me so, i could not go to states anymore and see my only brother that i have. she had her son beat me up and i thought, i should not bother or file charges . i do not want to bring myself down to her level. i tried to forget and forgive as they say is the best remedy but, i do not know if i did the right thing or not!!!!!! hang in / on to your girlfriend , you are lucky , you have someone in your life.i don’t have anyone. i wish i did, it would have become easier to deal with pain but,i have not been lucky enough. good luck my friend. stay away from that woman. stop your losses right now. mo omg!!! i can not believe that i found this article along with the postings!!! before coming across this article, i thought i was going to go crazy dealing with my cold hearted wife. the article describes her to a tee!! i was floored when i read it. after dealing with her for over 20 years and hearing what a bad person i was, day after day and how wonderful she was day after day, i was loosiing my mind. right now, i am beyond words as i finally figured out what is going on. thank you so very much for posting this article!!! and folks, we have our hands full trying to figure out what to do next. hi all, try googling narcissistic victim syndrome & also stockholm syndrome or traumatic bonding. there are some good (& not so good be careful!) online blogs & facebook support groups (open and closed) for victims/survivors of narcissists. and numerous good books. i’ve been very fortunate to find an excellent therapist who understands this sort of abuse (unfortunately many don’t) & to have found a wonderful closed online support group that was an absolute lifesaver especially early on after separation from narcissist after 15 years of marriage. we have a child so we have to keep contact (barf) but i’ve been learning as much about npd as possible & how to best deal & interact with him as possible   phew! i have not heard of much success for narcissists to recover..for one thing they usually don’t see they have a problem let alone agree to therapy for it! life is too short   get the hell out while you can, in any way you can. i was on verge of suicide (so unlike me!!) …it’s not worth it!!! xxx i honestly have been googling what a narcissistic father and relationship looks like and unfortunately im stuck in one. i truly love my boyfriend but i don’t think that he feels the same. i just had a baby about 4months ago and we don’t live together. he barely shows interest in me or my child when we’re not around him. he’ll probably call me once a day & the rest of the he does what he wants. he doesn’t go out of his way to make me happy. he doesn’t tell me that i’m different from others. he belittles my intelligence and it makes me feel like i have nothing to offer to him. he believes his smarter than me and i use to believe he felt that way because he was older. also the biggest factor of all i’ve never seen him cry! dear struggling friends i so feel in connected to the feelings and struggles you all experience. i have been married just 37 years and for a long time could not identify why i was not feeling happy. i have always been an optimist, loved working as a teacher and raising my two great (now adult) children. i do believe now, that i was just wanting to ignore the red flags that seem to be getting thicker and brighter. as i analyze my own behavior and researched for answers, i found that i seemed to fit into the co dependent roll in this relationship by thinking i could make it better just by talking, complying, suggesting even trying to change who i was to make it better.etc etc. no matter how i expressed myself to that end, it often escalated into a major conflict. i tried so hard, maybe too hard and it drove him crazy. he was not interested in me, not concerned about my feelings or desire to connect .emotionally with him. as much as i relate to each and all cases above, it is carol that i would love to connect with, as she has been married even longer than i and her case is sooo similar to mine, and yes, the loneliness and and lack of connection is devastating. email me carol is you like when i was a kid , i would always think of how my life would be when i got older. i would get married and together we would save money for a house and have children and 2 cars and try to live a normal life. this is not reality of todays world we live in. this is my second marriage, shes pretty, a great cook ,but that all goes away when her narcisisitic being comes out. she was an only child and her parents must of made her out to be this wonderful child,that she wasn’t. i now deal with this on a daily basis, i have spoken to her about her taking to men on her facebook page but she doesn’t care. i wish i could leave even though im the bread winner,she has beat on me many times until i throw her off. when the rage comes you can see the disconnection in her eyes. i don’t even think she fully sees what she is doing other than acting out. i read “the gas light effect”. you may well enjoy the movie “gas light” 1934 i am so glad you are moving on! i am working on myself as well. if you ever have time, will you read my story? it is dated may 1, 2014. i would really love to hear your input. so how are things going now? were you able to make a complete break from him? has he tried to contact you at all? what are your feelings about it all? and do you like a lot of questions? lol i have been married for almost 4 years. about a month before i was married i found out my husband has been cheating on me with prostitutes. i married him because, i know it’s going to sound stupid but, i’ve never been married and i was in love with him and i decided to forgive him and he said he would do whatever it takes to earn my forgiveness and trust back. so we married and shortly there after we had our first therapy appointment. i should’ve left him right after that because our therapist gave him an assignment to read a book about how to earn trust and forgiveness after cheating when the therapist did not give me an assignment my husband got angry and said, “what about her?” he was upset because i didn’t get an assignment so our therapist laid out all of the things that he was supposed to do and he promised to do every single one of them for as long as it took me to heal one of his first questions to me was what do you want me to be subservient and he answered i can’t do that. i’ve never been in an abusive relationship before not once have i allowed somebody to abuse me. i made it clear to myself that i would never allow anyone to abuse me because i was abused as a child in many ways i stood by that. if i found out somebody cheated on me which was only one that i found that out i left the person i think i stay with him because it was my first time being married and the wedding was one month away and anyway love him and i wanted to try it almost 4 years now and i feel like i’m doing everything wrong. he is always telling me it takes two in a relationship… you need to take responsibility for your side… you need to be accountable for this you need to be accountable for that…. but i keep asking myself what have i done wrong to him i have done nothing wrong to him nothing except stay with a man who has cheated on me and then continues to verbally and psychologically screw with my head telling me that i’m doing everything wrong that i am controlling him that i am stopping him from living his life and then he’ll apologize and say sorry and say he’s never had to deal with trying to help somebody heal after he cheated and then he’ll be demeaning and rude all over again calling me names getting angry that i found out that he cheated on me blaming me for everything that is going wrong in our relationship when i have done nothing but ask him to be patient and help me heal from the views that he continues to put out in this marriage i feel like i can’t do anything right he tells me that i’ve done a lot of bad things to him like spy on him but our therapist said when someone finds out their spouse cheats the natural thing to do is spy on them. i feel bad that i have spied on him yes however i’ve never spied on anyone in my entire life except for this man because i don’t trust him and when i start to trust him he does something like take my name off our home without me knowing about it, signing my name legally to the documents so my name is not on our house or trying to contact or email my friends and my family to ask them if i have a mental problem, emailing my therapist and asking about my medication or asking if i’m schizophrenic. i never had to take medication before i married him now i have to take an antianxiety medication because i get the panic attacks. and when he becomes angry because i share how i feel carefully now because i don’t want to getting angry but then he still gets angry he cuts off only my credit card so i have no access to any money. because i have a disability i don’t work right now so i am completely financially dependent upon him this is also new to me because i have never been financially dependent on anybody ever in my life i’ve always taken care of myself and taking care of my family. i was in a car accident and i can hardly walk right now i’m not paralyzed but getting a job was difficult and he tells me i don’t need one yet he will cut me off financially and do all sorts of mean things when i need to share how i feel i can’t heal at all when he is constantly doing things to sabotage the healing process by telling me i need to be accountable for my side when my side is darling you cheated on me i need you to give me the time to heal and he never does. furthermore he tells me i am lazy… when i have a disability that does not allow me to work for the time being i am in physical therapy so i can work soon. he tells me i am a terrible wife because i don’t cook for him but i don’t do that because i don’t feel like he deserves that he wants me to be accountable for spying on him and reading reviews that he wrote about the hookers that he screwed while we were one month away from our wedding. he’s never wrong not once is he ever wrong and if he does admit any wrong he always takes it back and says i only said that to shut you up. his excuse for behaving this way is he financially provides for us so he thought that i would just get over him cheating on me and that’s that he feels that i should deal with it because he pays for everything in the house. so coming up on the four year mark of our marriage he is now telling me he’s getting frustrated with our marriage that he feels i will never heal or get over things when the last thing on my mind right now is the cheating the first thing on my mind however is the way he treats me. i have filed for divorce twice i have abated both divorces for a six month period we are currently in the second abatement. when he started canceling the credit cards and taking money out of our joint bank account and defriending me as his wife from facebook i smartened up got a lawyer and i took the money out of the account before he could. so now all he can do is focus on the fact that i took the money a few times and not the fact that he took it about a dozen times before i even did it. i have begun to react to how he treats me so now all he focuses on is my reaction toward how he treats me and he tells me that i treat him like crap because i react to how he treats me and of course my reaction to his lack of compassion toward me sounds rude because i refuse to let him put me down anymore every time he tries to i stop him and i tell him this has nothing to do with what i was approaching you about i tell him to focus on the matter at hand every time i bring up how i feel he brings up the past and a lot of different things that he feels i am doing wrong he takes the focus off what i feel and focuses on what he thinks i should be doing. he treats me like a child if i leave the light on he will “say why don’t you turn the light off or stop leaving this is mess or don’t forget to turn the outside light off or don’t forget to feed the cats or don’t forget to pay the phone bill or don’t forget to do this don’t forget to do that you never do this you never do that i’m always doing everything i just need a break” . and all i tried to do was share how i felt and it led to all of that and it always does no matter what sometimes he can go a couple of months max without being a jerk but later on i find out he’s been emailing his lawyer and preparing for divorce so i feel like he putting on an act i don’t even know if he loves me i don’t know who he is anymore i don’t think i ever knew who he was because he wasn’t like this when i first met him and he wasn’t like this at all until the day i found out he cheated then he changed i don’t know what the heck is going on i’ve never been in a relationship like this before i don’t know what to do i’m not happy i want out but i have no financial resource and he knows that and he keeps it like that so i don’t leave that is my belief he knows i have no money he knows i’m unable to work presently therefore whenever we argue he cuts me off but he smartened up now because when we don’t argue he siphons money from our account and puts it somewhere else so it looks like we have no money in our account but he makes very good money so i know damn well that there is money. i don’t go out shopping like other wives in our financial status i don’t spend money frivolously i don’t go buy shoes or clothing nothing but he’s always buying stuff for himself that’s for sure but he tells me we have no money then how can he afford to buy stuff for himself. i’m not stupid but i feel stupid i’m not ignorant but i feel ignorant because i’m so damn confused i don’t know what it is that i have done to him to make him not not love me anymore even though he says he loves me i don’t believe it because any man who loves his wife will never call his wife a whore or tell his wife to go screw the neighbor!!!! i don’t deserve this and i know i don’t i have been through way too much in my life to deal with something like this and i’m frustrated because i have no way out right now maybe in a year i have a way out but what if when that year is up i’m already far gone psychologically what if he is already messed with my head too much that i can’t get out because i don’t know how to anymore i don’t know what to do i’m lost and i’m afraid and oh yes another thing i can’t say that he’s actually hit me physically but he does push me an i have fallen to the ground a few times that’s how hard he has showed me he’s also calls the police on me when i’ve gotten angry because he’s pushed me so far that i snap and i just can’t take it anymore so he calls the cops and tell them i need to be baker acted i mean what is going to happen is this even right can even do that i am just feel like i’m going crazy. i know what is what and i know i haven’t done anything wrong but he treats me like i have right now he’s out of town for one month because he has business so of course the only thing in my head is he’s probably cheating on me because what has he done to prove to me that he is not going to cheat on me he goes on facebook and writes on my friends photograph hey you ladies look sexy and then searches for his ex girlfriend when he’s out of town so of course the first thought in my head is he’s looking to cheat usually if he starts an argument with me his wife before he goes out of town that is the first sign and he’s going to cheat because he wants to justify his actions “well my wife and i got into a fight so i can cheat” …. oh yes i must not forget another thing he leaves his ipad open on purpose and he signed in with a fake email the same email account that he used to cheat on me with just so i would find it because he wanted to screw with my head and he blatantly admitted he wanted to screw with me and that’s why he left his ipod open to a fake email account. when i first found out that he cheated on me for years ago i told him in a loving way because i thought he was naïve “those hookers care nothing for you all they wanted was your money and to use you so you would take them shopping or whatever it is that you did with them they don’t care for you they are using you bottom line” do you know that he got mad at me for telling him that and he defended the hookers. i was beside myself when he did that…. i’m sorry about this long post i’m just confused like i said i have never been in a relationship like this before where i’m confused and when my husband and i first got married i had been in a traumatic situation where i had to put somebody in prison for the rest of their life it was pretty traumatizing my husband uses that against me if i talk to him and confided him about my sister and i if we get into a fight he uses that against me. and worst of all the abuse that i went through as a child he uses that against me and he tells me that i am mentally broken because of it when i went through about 15 years of therapy and i have forgiven the person who has hurt me it’s terrible that he uses that particular thing against me but no matter what i say when i want to confide in someone i cannot confide in him because everything i tell him he uses against me. i just stumbled upon this website because i couldn’t sleep last night because i am so confused i am so over it and i really just don’t know what to do i know i need to leave that part i know but i don’t have a job i don’t have a financial income and i haven’t been married long enough in the state that i live in to get alimony. so i sort of feel screwed either way i am damned if i leave him and i am damned if i don’t leave him. my friend, my best friend tells me oh just you know fake it until you know you can leave financially but i can’t fake a thing like love i don’t know how to pretend that everything is alright i can’t just sit there and put on a smile and say i’m okay when i am not i have to be able to get out how i feel if i am hurting. i simply cannot walk around and pretend that everything is fine my husband can on the other hand he can walk around like he’s done nothing wrong because he really does think he has done nothing wrong he tried to tell me that i told him he could cheat on me because when we first met i was going through something very difficult and i was not ready to be intimate with anybody and i decided to take it very slow with him in his mind that said she on the go ahead but i never once said that. i’m just blabbing on right now i thought i would reach out because nobody knows who i am here and i don’t want to tell my friends this stuff i can’t i wouldn’t even know where to begin to start telling anyone this even a therapist i wouldn’t even know where to start i have lost so much weight i look like i’m five years older than i am i can’t do this anymore and i don’t know what to do and at the same time i do know what to do but if i do what i need to do i will be on the streets i won’t have any money and that is where he has the upper hand and i think he actually enjoys that. any kind of advice would be great i guess please don’t bash me i’m already going through enough if you don’t have anything nice to say or any good advice to give this please just don’t say anything i won’t be able to handle anything negative i know that i shouldn’t be in this relationship trust me i know that but without money people can’t live and i don’t know what to do because he taken everything from the bank account again he’s taken a credit card again and i’m here by myself with nothing nowhere to go and no one i can stay with because i have no family anymore i don’t have any friends in my area he plucked me out of my hometown and move me off into never never land where there is nobody around and i know not one soul i’m sure that was part of his big plan to so he could having to himself i’m not stupid i’m just feeling stupid. again sorry for this long message i guess i just needed to get it out and by the way there is so much more is all of this here this isn’t even a half of it. i am never considered to be right i’m always wrong in his eyes but he’s always telling me that he’s never right even though he is always right obviously because he is never wrong he never admits he is wrong never not once he pretends everything is okay the next day after a huge fight acts like nothing is wrong and then on the very rare moments where he asks me what’s wrong and i tell him he gets angry all over again because he’ll go to bed after a fight and leave me feeling so hurt that i can’t sleep i am made to feel that i have done everything wrong in this relationship when the only thing that went wrong was he cheated on me everything before the cheating, well, we were perfect, or so i thought , but the second i found out that he did something wrong he got angry and said he was mad that he got caught because that was something he wanted to take to his grave his reason for being mad at me is i caught him cheating that is the only reason oh yes and he gets angry that i’m not working even though he tells me when we’re not fighting that i don’t need to work because he makes enough money anyways just i’m done i’m done talking now am i in a narcissistic relationship or am i in a sociopathic relationship i don’t know which it is i’m sorry if i posted this twice but i don’t see where it posted thank you wow! never thought there were so many others caught up loving a narcissistic woman. mine is a real charmer. she calls once a week to sweet talk me into giving her money for her motel room since she has no job and no other place to live and i feel sorry for her and help her. she says she is mine and i am hers and she loves me and is always true to me. every time i’m with her there are people calling her and she won’t answer the phone and always claims it is one of her girlfriends and i’ve heard from others that she is seeing other men, but they are her girlfreinds boyfriends according to her. not that any of that matters because when i’m with her i can only take it for a few hours. the sex is great! she is like being with a porn star in bed, but that’s the only thing she knows how to do. never had a job in 39 years, smokes crack, drinks, and looks in the mirror for hours. takes her 30 minutes or more just to get ready to walk out of the room to go to her car to get something. i really love her and wish so bad that i could get her to get some help for her substance abuse or to see a psychologist or counselor to point her in a direction. i know her parents well and she hasn’t talked to them in well over a year. this girl is driving me crazy with her insanity!!!! it s a lot of us out therewho have problems with narc. i have th esam situation as ‘ sel ‘ . i feel the blame for everithingt that happent. even when he chated me i thought it was my fault. my self esteem is so low now. horrible thing wow. i was moved to tears reading your comments. especially the part about seeing your ex with someone else, “getting into a car” because that happened to me with my narc/ex. and no one who has not been with a narc would understand. you miss the person you thought they were.. i miss the person he is when he’s not needing to make a point about how right he is, or i guess i miss the person he is when i was stroking his fragile ego and all was right in the world with him. he started seeing someone else while we were living together (out of financial necessity for a while,) and i was so tormented at how they’d spend hours on the phone, texting hundreds of times a day, as he and did when i was feeding his narc supply/ego. i was discarded. i have been thru other breakups/divorce and it never felt like this. like part of you is dying… thank you for sharing your experience. it helps. yes!! the “no contract” rule is extremely important with narcissist break ups. i need to remember this. stuck living with my ex for financial reasons, and it’s been horrible because the good moments bring back the flood of good feelings. and there is nothing so great as the high you get from a narc partner when they feel like you’re meeting their ego needs!! good for you. i had several times when my ex/narc and i got back together, and it was so nice. then suddenly he’d act sullen (usually within a few weeks,) and announce that it didn’t feel right, and wanted to break up. i kept falling for this. i think he thought he’d feel better than he did when we got back together, as if he was looking for that rush narcs get with a new person that doesn’t know their issues. mostly they don’t want to be with someone that expects them to give 50% in a relationship. not true. if people truly got and stayed in these situations because they “wanted to be a victim” then tell me why i have never been with a person like that before? wouldn’t i seek out relationships where i’m the victim? sometimes people run into a narcissist, and it’s impossible to tell at first. it took me years to see what was going on, but by then i as so drained and trampled, i couldn’t see the way out. they’re the problem, not the person they dominate and torment. hi. i am seeing a guy in secret whos ex wife is very much a narcissist. i am so confused, she is awful to him, he says hes in love with me but he cant let her go. it is like some sick sort of emotional attachment. can you help me see from a victims point of view to help me understand. we have pointed out to him that she is a narcissist but progress is very slow. she has a strong hold over him. i dont know if its fear of what she’ll do if she finds out hes seeing someone else or fear of losing her. help!!! i feel so drained over this and im trying to walk away from it all because i cant see him ever finding the strength to stand up to her. i dated a narcissist for 3 years. the first 6 months were wonderful. then she started asking me for money. and silly me, i was going to give it to her. then it was the “you are so worthless phase” you are a loser. i treated her better than any woman i have ever been with. did anything and everything for her. never enough. i think she cheated on me several times….even with the loan officer to get her house out of the ex husband’s name. i would see lingere in her suitcase that she would never wear for me. and she would scream at me if i inquired where she was when i would call her just to tell her good morning. one day …. she told me that if i did not start respecting her schedule that the relationship was over. ha ha… i said … “hey we finally agree on something….” and i started packing my suitcase to leave. she knew she fucked up. but i was comitted to getting out and i did. finally about 6 months later i wrote her a very nice letter saying she would be missed etc…etc….and sent her back some of her stuff. and now my life is fucking wonderful !!!!!! i met this new girl and we are going out and we get along and she is sweet and apprective…. and she has a much bigger rack and i love it !!!! if you are in a relationship with a narcissistic woman….grab your balls….squeeze hard and tell her to take a free screw to the moon and charge it to you… and get out. you’ll thank me !! nadia,…i too have to say “run!” you are still in what we call “the honeymoon stage.” your relationship will shift into something horrible and demoralizing. you won’t even recognize yourself after awhile. you will be lost. i know you feel strong love for him, but the love was based on his charming mask. they can be oh so attentive and praising. once you are locked in, “whammo!” it’s all about them and everything bad that happens will always be your fault. take good care of yourself. show yourself some love,…. and leave. i’ve been around narcissists and suppliers seems like all of my life. raised with one, married one, dated one and worked with several. i’ve been reading a lot bout this disorder and see both myself and my experiences on every site i visit. narcissists are hazardous material. the only safe dumping spot is to have them feel you aren’t good supply for them. there is a certain look of pleasure they have when they discover your vulnerability. you can be mother teresa and they will nit pick you to the point of ruins. it works if you don’t know who you are. your normal human response makes you want to do better, have compassion for their pain. but once you clearly see nothing pleases them, this is the time to evaluate what’s being perceived versus what the reality is. you know it’s out of character for you to have done things you’re accused of. you see bills aren’t being paid or money is withdrawn that you didn’t take out. but it’s part of the dynamics of this personality to get you to submit to their world by second guessing yourself. you’re only needed to make them look and feel good. look good in public and feel good in private. the slightest perception of out doing them will result in a war dedicated to destroying your entire being. i’m no expert by any means but these articles and posts helped me to connect the peices. it is not you. it is them! too much praise on your new look, car, home, pet or child and this will set them ablaze with envy. they may compliment you but they will turn to whomever is next to them and put on such a performance or tell such a story about you, they gain the support and you lose.if there is no other choice for you but to stay, you must subject yourself to degradation, humiliation, character assassination and accept it as their distorted view of reality, not as who you are. just as they put on the act of being above all others, you have to put on the act of appealing to their self esteem. just remember they need youto be inferior to them because this is how they see to justify their sense of superiority. if you choose to stay, think long and hard about your decision. seek help and look for opportunities to get out. and when you can leave, run like hell!! dont look back. don’t answer calls. dont yield to pleads of doing better to make it work, cries of love. these personalities are as unpredictable as wind patterns and are as devastating as biological warfare. my sibling, husband, co workers and even a guy i dated later all have some traits i’ve read about. but i noticed a certain mindset between all of them. its all about them. growing up, there was always drama in the home. and one sibling in particular, in was always involved. let me state, i will do my best to not write a book about my experiences. but over the years, i witnessed abnormal behavior and manifestation in their narcissistic personsonality. they become fixated on one subject for years and even decades. childish behavior  temper tantrums that may well have a breakdown of some sort. paranoia or maybe just thinking everybody is watching them because they feel they are just that fascinating. derogatory remarks. histrionics which definitely enhanced the success of my and numerous others character assassination. the use of other people and or their situation for personal gain and a complete lack of personal responsibility. they have used sensitive information confided in them agsinst that very person if they feel threatened by less attention given to them. they have the ability to stare to form tears, make pleas of remorse to a unsuspecting person and the victim is vandalized for good. i have no contact with this sibling. . i don’t hate them but i know they’re not well, can’t be helped and will forever remain a snake in the grass. my husband tried gaslighting but didn’t work. he was the apple of most eyes but a control freak that believed in head games and back handed tactics. he’d accuse family and even his own kids of lying. me? i never did shit but if it wsd praise worthy to outsiders, he took the credit. i wss the liability for his bad actions or judgemenment calls. period! i had no money although i worked because of his fiscal irresponsibility. he’d pay bills and blow the rest. i had no way or support to leave. we did separate but he pulled that stint knowing i had no money and no stable job. he’s gone for good but im paying for it to this day. the guy i dated wss kind of entertaining to me. he pursued me relentlessly. all of these young women and he’s on me. he would later refer to them as headaches. but after a couple of months, we exchanged numbers and he called. the first two talks went well, then the fussing about too much debt. numerous calls daily about the same thing. i see where. i went wrong. but he didnt back off so i gave it a shot thinking he’d see it wouldn’t work. after a couple of months, i told him this didnt work. the outbursts because i called, numerous calls when i didn’t call or answer  like 15 calls in 20 minutes. following me around at work, finding me because he watched me. just way too overwhelming.over and over. so i decided to let him end it. but over time i would witness and be on the receiving end of outbursts, verbal lashings, silent treatments and avoidance. fair exchange is not robbery. i gave what i got and in return, his hope for restocking his supply diminished after 6 years and i have not seen or heard from him since. some coworkers were so obnoxious and inconsiderate, they made for a long, white noise filled, dramatic work day. day after day. tons os self praise with just as many insults to fellow coworkers. they set out to get new employees fired the first dsy they punched the clock. i can’t describe that amount of aggravation that filled every work day. and just how bizarre and atrocious their behavior is. but i saw just what narcissistic supply is. stuff the ego and you might have a peaceful part of the day. so these are my experiences in brief. narcissism is in various degrees but the ones i mentioned were detrimental. i’m new to posting so don’t know how long they take to appear. but i’ve written two on this so, so i’m concluding. i have certainly been affected by the narcissists in my life. i realize i am a magnet for them because i am just what they need for their ill perceived image. i have ehat they lack. we all do and we are the same people with the same stories. we are charmed. may hear a sob story, show compassion and try to help them feel better thus exposing basic human vulnerability. oh! they know just how far to go before they unleash that wrecking ball. but now we know these weird, eccentric, egocentric, abusive people have a resl problem with the perfectly self described label. these people are so chaotic they we hate them. none of us know to what point they are aware and unaware of their effects on the lives of others. i personally think most are aware of how they are but don’t understand why they are this way. i’m almost positive that they are to self consumed that it simply doesn’t dawn on them they are abnormal.one woman would inflict her narcissism on me as a way to mske her look modest yet she’d just finished stating how she does her job above and beyond and how she is to be believed. but she could convince you to see what’s there then, not how it came to be there. another woman repeated everything i said. then she’d bring it to me as if she wad the one who though if or spoke of it first. the guy i dated would repest the very same actions i took from him so he could see how he came across to me. so i really don’t believe these personalities are capable of comprehending why people cut them off, keep them distant because of the effect they’ve had on people. they certainly disrupt, if not destroy peoples lives and they are aware of that, but they just fathom why we don’t understand their distorted reality. we can’t fix them. reasoning and logic is of no use. it doesn’t work and full their scorn further. i think i am a narc, am a beautiful woman, intelligent and educated. to make matters worse am a linguistic that people are always praising me. i had a career but fell in love with someone much older than me and he was a struggling man but very hard working. my husband is not educated, however very intelligent and puts in effort to what he does. i am a down to earth woman, flexible or spontaneous that i don’t know what became of me of late. we dated for 2 years with my hubby before marriage, he was never decided on commitment, am a christian who believes in no sex before marriage. he is in u.k i was working in asia, my then fiancee kept wanting me to put his job first before mine, we had problems until i broke up with him, he realised i was serious about letting go so he made up his mind about commitment. i was ready to relocate to uk but he never wanted to relocate to asia or africa (where i come from) i loved him and decided to leave my career behind, move on to be a wife as i plan to resume work where my husband feels comfortable living. unfortunately after the wedding i was denied a spouse visa because his financial status wasn’t good. he said its ok, he will come home every after a month for 2 weeks until his business caught up, my husband never came back home now its a year. he thinks its not right to leave his business for a second, i am unemployed because am now in a third world country affected with deployment, he always has no money, he doesn’t want to be employed because he thinks his business will go to the next level, i suggested we both look for jobs in a country where we can live together and work as well its not right by him, he now lives with his mother, whenever i mention am lonely he says am not accepting the situation, he seems ok by the distance but am dying here, i pray, fast, help with charities at church to keep busy but my heart is bleeding, my beloved thinks he is right because love doesnt pay bills, he is always busy, too tired to talk or needs time by himself instead of us to skype. when he does, he is multi tasking while talking to me that he forgets what i say in the process. he keeps saying am not understanding, unappreciative etc and his family too. so am always saying sorry but when i mention anything faulty he says, “there you go again”. of late, i also keep showing him how great i am to bring back my self esteem that i lost, i show him how i deserve a lot better which hurts him and am guilty about because its not my intention however the biggest part of me thinks i should remind him maybe he will bend a bit not to loose me, i keep praising myself, calling myself good wife, telling him all the crap narcissist say to feel like me again. am trying to do things my way as well and of late we are clashing too much that i have thought of divorce. am i a narcissist or have been damaged by the man with an ego who manipulated me into guilt of our situation? help me please, am ready to move to europe to any country close to uk so that i can save my marriage but i think we have more issues than just the distance. he is truly a handsome man, good father to our daughter i keep doing the same thing hoping for better results..i become confused and start thinking im the one that narcissistic. then i feel better knowing im not because no way on earth would i waist my time caring and wondering if im the drama queen narcissistic . am i blaming his narcissistic personality for my sadness? and does that make me narcissistic when i start thinking he is really out to destroy me. im so obsessed with trying to figure out if its him or me that my energy is wearing down and im getting to tired and my confidence and love for myself is slowly denigrating. .or let be honest.my love for myself has disapeared because im mad at myself for going back. im mad at myself for allowing him to do what he has done.and i keep hoping for it to be just my over reationg and insecurities..why else would he still be with me after all the fighting , he must care so i stick in it telling myself im over reacting.and were just not communicating. ill try it agian…and again and again. i will leave for sure this time.but honestly i feel stuck..honestly im not being honest with myself and still living in a dilustion that he really does love me. i see it..but i cant just get over that dam jill just yet..he keeps chasing me or am i keep chasing him. so i leave thinking i can leave this time. and that utter loniness i feel when with him is there still but worse when he’s gone..i seriously am fucked up in my head today..but thats just this moment..i can pick myself up and not feel sorry for myself . and know i am a culprit to the abouse on myself just as much as him..i just need to learn this time , again how to go about it..because it didnt work last time..it only worked for five years..and now he’s back again. sorry bad spelling and typing and probley didnt make since, ive allowed myself to not have any good sleep last night as i just constantly thought about what happened last night careful! it is good to recognize abusive or challenging behaviors in a partner, but that is just the beginning. the real work and real recovery comes from a focus on self discovery. we are not totally passive ‘magnets’ that draw in xyz. rather, we have our own set of beliefs, attachment style, personality traits that hook in especially well with certain others for a for a variety of very complex reasons, one example; a narcissistic style of relating corresponds to an attachment style called ‘avoidant’. some of the most difficult relationship dynamics are between those with an avoidant attachment style and those with an anxious (angry/resistant) attachment style. when these two get together, it can be a real roller coaster, but they often find each other irresistible and stay together for years! with lost of complaining! both have relational styles that are (mal) adaptive and contribute to the dynamic. both can be very co dependent (blaming of other, unwilling to accept responsibility for own happiness). this can go on for years and years. go on an exploration of self; that is where the real healing is! chelle b. here goes, i’ve been married to my narc. for a little over 2 years but dated a year before marriage. the year of dating was a clue to what my future life was going to be like. i really wished i would have paid closer attention to the clues that he sat before me, the controlling, obsessiveness, seclusion and the breaking up (seems like) every other weekend…things i’ve never been subjected to in my adult life. we’re both 48 years old but he wants to be 32….listening to rap music all day, buying new clothes every time him and his friends decide to go to a club, which is every week and leaving me at home alone crying but he doesn’t see that it’s a problem. sometimes he would look at me with a look of hatred in his eyes, he would tell me he doesn’t like having intimate relations with me, called me fat girl and just like to pick arguments for no apparent reason. when he goes out he will not answer his phone and when i get upset about it he says he didn’t hear the phone ring, but if i’m right at home and my phone is in another room and he calls and i don’t answer it..it’s a problem, he’ll say what are you doing that you can’t answer your phone…are you kidding me, i am at home not in a bar or club and i’ll call him right back. he finds any little thing to start an argument with me, everything has to be his way or i’m not doing it right. he’s so arrogant and rude to not only me but his friends and family also. he really makes me feel as if he doesn’t like me and doesn’t want to be around me, but when i say something about it i’m wrong and he doesn’t know why i feel that way…he’ll stay out all night and it’s ok…i need to stop being insecure…i’m running him away…he’s tired of going through these changes. so finally i asked him what changes are you going through, i don’t have to hang in a club/bar every week, i always answer my phone when you call, i don’t treat you like i can’t stand to be around you and i definitely don’t point out your imperfections even though you have some. he also thinks that i’m at this stupid, unintelligent person because he talks down to me, he’ll say i don’t understand when he’s talking to me..i can go on and on with the things he does and say, maybe i’ll continue the next time. for some reason i love my narc husband but i wish i could get the love back that we had at first and i have suggested it, but he says there’s nothing wrong. now can someone please help me? i’m getting to be at my wits end…i can’t even talk to him, if i have something to say i have to text him so that i can get it all out without being interrupted or having to see the look of disgust on his face. wow… i just can’t believe i’m going through this in my late 40s…this is just unbelievable….i need help…someone please help me, give me some advice…please please please!!!! there are people replying thinking they are victims that are actually narcissists themselves. take a look at your own behaviour. are you absolutely certain you are the victim here. what if you are actually not but you are so wrapped up in your behaviour that you don’t even realise. i have spent the last 25 years living in the hell of a narcissistic “partner”   while we have been separated for 8 years, he is still making life hell. i have tried repeatedly to serve him with divorce papers this year, at his request and each time he has refused to sign for them. he refused to sign them in previous years   not sure of his reason but assuming it was control. he was telling his friends that i was refusing…… also,he threatened me with violence if i have them delivered by a process server so i am frustrated, as he won’t co operate with picking up the registered letter (twice i have tried and twice someone else has picked them up after he asked specifically if that was ok, and i clearly said it was not, that he had to sign for them……). he has a new person in his life and told me last year they were having a kid   not sure if that was a lie (he lied all the time so it’s hard to know) but if she has had his kid, i assume she would like to get married……i think he’s just being a controller and trying to upset me (and possibly her   who knows?). i spent several years confused by his weird behaviour   he blamed me for everything that went wrong in his life   my favorite was when his fishing buddy decided that he didn’t like getting up at 4am on saturdays to fish and would refuse his invitations   that was my fault because his friend thought i was a bitch! i had never done anything to this friend   had even tried to build a connection by inviting him and his girlfriend to supper, etc   i guess the reason the friend hated me was that my ex was telling him what a bitch i was……i think back to our wedding and his friend was best man and would not even speak to me   he was outright rude! i had no idea that my ex was so manipulative, controlling, calculating and cruel while we were dating….the craziness started soon after marriage. he seemed to turn on me. i moved to his hometown, which was only 3 hours away but it was far enough to make me feel isolated and alone. he went fishing most weekends, and often during the week   he ran his own business and didn’t care to work very hard. he also told me that the money he made at this business was “all mine” and would not contribute to the household…. when he went fishing, he would say what time he’d be back but would never come back on time   i used to worry that something had happened but after a while realized that he was fine, and was just being a jerk/disrespectful of me. he decided one summer to golf instead of work   this was after a long winter with no work…..i was his meal ticket. we didn’t have kids because he wasn’t ready he said but he was telling others i didn’t want them   i had no idea of the lies he was telling people. i did get pregnant and he said “oh” when i told him   that was painful….he had no joy   just that one word   i miscarried the baby and on the day the child would have been born, my ex beat me up, lied to his brother about it, went on his annual golf vacation and never looked back. to this day, he denies that anything happened, says that i just bailed on him because i didn’t want kids. he also told everyone about my miscarriage even after i asked him to keep it private   when i asked why he’d done that he said “i didn’t want people to think there was anything wrong with me”. i see now that he is a classic narc……nothing but his needs matter. i wish i had known about npd earlier in my life   i would have gotten out sooner and still had a chance at a good life. now i am in my 40s and childless….and broken…..he didn’t care that he hurt me   i think he actually enjoyed it. i think he is still enjoying knowing he did it. hi chelle, please go back and re read your post very carefully. this guy is looking at you with hatred in his eyes, doesn’t want to be intimate, calls you fat? he’s staying out all night and thinks it’s okay? he thinks you are unintelligent and talks down to you? but then you say you love him??? why? i am right at the same age as you….at our age, we don’t need a “man” that’s listening to rap all day and hanging at the bars at night. (does any woman really need this at any age?) he sounds horribly immature and he’s causing you heaven only knows how much emotional damage. i know you have a dream of making your relationship work, but i don’t think it’s going to happen with this man. he’s not capable of it. it is not your fault that he is this way. it’s time to think about cutting your losses and getting out. yes you will be sad, you will be lonely, you might even feel like you are going to die. but you won’t. you will survive him and if you will do the work that needs to be done on yourself, you will go on to have a fantastic life, with or without a man. you need to leave him and go on a personal journey to find out why you would continue to put up with the mistreatment he’s dishing out to you. i am guessing you are probably a shy and caring type of person….narcissists seek out this kind of person. often we women believe we can “love” their problems away, but we can’t. he has you convinced that if you only try harder…..riiiiight. the man you met and the love you had in the beginning was not real, it was an illusion he used to reel you in. the man you know now is the “real” man. he’ll never change because he is incapable of change, he doesn’t even think he’s doing anything wrong! age 50 is staring at us both in the eyes….we don’t have countless years left in this life. please don’t waste any more of your precious years on a man who couldn’t care less about what you feel. stay strong and let me know what happens. you can do better than this, i have faith in you! should i break up with my boyfriend cuz i think i am a narcissist… i dont want him to end up writing one of these comments one day… i have sat here for the last 2 hours reading all these posts & it feels like i am reading stories about my life. after 10 years of being treated like a second class citizen doing everything in our lives without him ever offering to help out. everything is all about him, my feelings are just a nuisance that get in the way according to him. i feel broken & alone all of the time. i have spent the majority of my life in abusive relationships & thought my life would be so much better being with someone who doesn’t physically abuse me. truth is, this kind of mental abuse is almost worse. at least when i had bruises & broken bones, i would cry from the physical pain & know that eventually it would heal. now i cry all the time from the emotional pain & feel like these scars might never heal. i wish i had the strength to just get up & walk out, but the sad truth is, i don’t. hello to all who have gone through this type of relationship. we all share many of the same experiences in unique ways, with children or without, being married to a person with this type of personality is like drinking a little poison every day. we try everything to make it work and nothing works! we die a little every day. i am at the breaking point again!! it seems like i am all too familiar with this scenario. i am pleading with god to help me make a run for it and never look back! easier said than done. congratulations to all who have escaped and let us pray for those still in the struggle to find a way out! i am so sorry to hear about your situation. i too am “married” to a narcissistic “woman” who is the textbook definition of the word. forgive me but to you and everyone “married” to this type of person, pray for them and ask almighty god to heal them as st. rita of cascia endured years of abuse. i will keep you in my prayers and remember, none of this will matter in 100 years time! 🙂 dear brenda, thank you for your kind words of support. my history will forever be shaped by my experience with him. every day (after 2 years) it does get easier. i still feel physically ill at the thought he is out there, getting on with his life and never allowing himself to think about me. on 7 july it will be two years since i lost our precious baby but i am so grateful for having carried it even for a short period of time. i look back at myself during those tough times and i am so proud of myself for having survived…. scarred, vulnerable, shaking and feeling sick but i did my absolute best to cope. every day i work hard to hold my chin high and i try to accept all that has happened. the thing which i find most annoying is knowing i will never be the same innocent girl who loved so openly …. but faith and belief in happiness is essential! being able to love someone is such a wonderful feeling and he doesn’t get to take that away from me. dear valarie, my heart reaches out to yours and gives you a big, warm hug. i cannot imagine how you must be feeling after losing your precious baby. you and your son are better off without this person in your life. you need to find a way of loving yourself…. remembering how you and your son matter the most. i could not feel anger for a long time and when i finally did (about 2 years later) i could laugh. i will never stop wondering about him, and how he possibly lives every day with the knowledge of how he treated me…. however, the energy it takes to think about this is exhausting. i have been over everything in my mind, i have looked through every picture, every video, including our wedding day and i cannot see a single sign about who he truly was… there were moments when his actions definitely showed indicators of narcissism but i didn’t know what it even was. he is now happily living his grandiose lifestyle with a beautiful looking girl to feed his supply (yes, i googled him)…. it makes me feel utterly sick on one hand, there is a desperate plea inside of me to warn her but there is part of me which feels relieved. i hope one day for you the pain of this experience will not be so piercing, each day you need to dedicate yourself to your own happiness…you deserve to feel happy, something which narcissist cleverly deny us from feeling. best of luck with your journey ahead. a light just went off in my head reading your response. i don’t have kids, and don’t even know if i want them… but that’s a wonderful way to gauge someone else’s behavior: (if i had a daughter…) would i want my daughter to be treated this way? my last boyfriend was most definitely a narcissist… i think i would have saved myself a lot of pain and self doubt if i had ever asked myself that. thank you! dear daniel, she sounds like a spoilt princess who is using you, why doesn’t she go out and get a job, how dare she tell you that you have to work full time, cook for her as well, and on top of that she screams at you!!!!, how could you put up with that, im sure a lot of other men would of told her where to go by now!!!, believe me, you are doing nothing wrong at all, its her that is taking advantage of your nice, kind nature…..you are a good hardworking man, and she is extremely lazy and narcissistic and is using you. do you own the house? if i was you, i would protect all your assets from this greedy, selfish women incase you get sick of her one day and you want out, at least you know all the property will go to you if you prepare in advance, as you don’t want to be paying her child support on top of all the abuse she is putting you through. believe me, you deserve better then her. is there no hope for someone in a narcisistic relationship? can it not work? after 8 years, i am starting to beleive my husband suffers from this. he underwent therapy as a teen. he hates labels and will not give me much detail other than they could not help him and only trained him how to deal with people in life. should i throw the towel in and see where life takes me? his latest deal is that he is committed to providing for me and our children. but he wants to live elsewhere mon   fri and return on the weekends for family time. because that is when he can tolerate me, when we are doing things as a family. i don’t want that. that does not set a good father figure for my boys. but he became irate when i refused. is this unreparable. i wish i could find a professional in my area to speak with. but i am striking out. i am a narcissist and i can admit that. i have always thought that i was just super selfish and high maintenance because that is what my family has always called me and also, mostly for lack of a proper term. but i am not sure that i am a “severe” narcissist, because i have always actively tried to hide the worst of my traits from my friends and even my family as i’ve gotten older, as much as possible because i know they are unlikeable and undesirable traits. i guess i know how to put on a facade and fool people very easily. when i was in high school we learned about narcissism in a psychology class and i recognized many of the traits of a narcissist within my own personality and characteristics. it did not really bother me when i found out because no one except my family really knew how self absorbed and manipulative i really was. it did not shock me either when i determined i was a “narcissist” because i have always known, even as a younger child, that i can manipulate people to get what i want and that i am destined to be extremely successful in life (or whatever). luckily for me, i had a catalyst in my life that would help me control my narcissism more than i can ever say. my catalyst was a boy. i know it sounds cheesy, but i never really dated or fooled around in high school at all because no one felt worth my time. but anyways, i had met a boy whom i had never met like anybody else before in my entire life. he felt very “beyond his years” in general intelligence and practical wisdom, and he is the single most selfless person i will probably ever meet in my entire lifetime. his extreme level of selflessness combated my extreme level of selfishness in ways that i will never understand. he’s taught me, without even knowing it, to control my narcissism and be able to feel more like “me” without having to completely expose who i am altogether. i feel extremely lucky to have met this person and i intend to spend the rest of my life with him. we have been dating for five and a half years now, with the first two or three years being pretty rocky i admit, but i can’t think of anyone else who would have put up with me for so long like he did. i remember always saying to him in our first two to three years together, “thank you for putting up with me” or “thank you for tolerating me”. now at the age of 22, i feel like i am genuinely happy with who i am, for one of the first times in my life. it feels pretty good. google narcissistic abuse recovery program aka narp by melanie tonia evans. it will help you. it is super reasonable cost too. i separated with my gf for 2 months now, i feel really guilty and pity for her, but after knowing what a narcissist is and googling it, i found out she was a narcissist, now i felt so relieved that god saved me from nearly marrying her. i caught her cheating several times. and i can relate to what all the people are saying here, the cheating was not the nail in the coffin why we separated, its just that i can no longer afford her luxuries, i was filled with debts, a broken man. now she tries to show me in fb that he is with another man, i dont care anymore because im so relieved thank god, just saying good luck to the other man, hes in into the hell hole haha if you look up ‘inverted narcissist’ ( or codependent) you will see reasons why you maybe felt the need to have gone back. an inverted narcissist almost feels the need to be with. person of this type  and this needs overcoming! go to a counsellor asap about this! for me, it is because i am a submisive personality and have been abused as a child. but after so many years, i have just recognized the fact that my partner is a narcissist. the whole time i thought i was doing something wrong. i am frustrated and wondering why no one let me in on it. is everyone in the dark with this? hi ian, i don’t know too much about narcissism but have been researching about it recently. i think i may have just been in a relationship with one. like you, i really do care for this person but i am completely heartbroken and don’t really know what to think. i would like to talk to someone who knows more about this because i have never experienced anything like it until now. i feel that i may now have mental issues just from being with this person. hi sel, i have just found this page as i am currently going through some things myself. i see your post was uploaded earlier in the year. i hope you are feeling better now? whenever you get down about things and think of him with other people, just remember the way he was with you is exactly the way he will treat them. he is sick and unless he realises this and wants help, he will always be the same no matter who he is with. even if they look happy in pictures, i assure you behind closed doors he will treat her the same after awhile. just ask yourself how many people knew you were unhappy while you were with him? or did you hide it well to protect him from being judged by others?? i know i did. he may start of nice, as they all do but eventually she will experience the same things you did. try to feel thankful you are not with him anymore because he actually did you a favor by letting you go. i just read your post and felt like i just wrote it. my situation is identical to yours. i see such red flags but half of me sees a man who loves me, acknowledges some things and tries to work on them. the other half of me feels like he loves himself more and when he gets in one of these “moods” nothing gets through to him. he is emotionless and all of the things i feel we have talked about and promised are thrown out the window again. we are also so much a like also and i can’t imagine my life without him but a part of me is getting torn down inside. i am losing my trust, respect and confidence in him. his personality can switch in an instant and that’s when it becomes all about him. when he is not in one of his “moods” he is the most warm, loving, fun and giving man that i have ever known. 95% of the time he has a heart of gold, the other 5% he doesn’t have a heart and it scares me. the ego thing rules. i feel alone. i don’t feel i can talk to anyone because i know they would tell me run and i am stupid. he is not physically abusive but i feel he is emotionally abusive. i feel the inside of him is screaming to stop and i feel he is trying but i don’t know how much longer i can hang on. i just read your article and felt i needed to respond which is something i never do. how are things with you and your husband now? i see this was posted in february. stay strong and i hope god guides us both in the right direction. @andre, you’re right. i was extremely afraid i was a narc, since my ex called me one but from what i have read from the varies sights i’ve been to, i’m not one at all. and neither is that girls boyfriend. also why are you people being so cruel, narcissistic people are by definition secretly insecure and they need help. not be treated like they are diseased serial killers. jeez. dont run from someone you are in love with, help them through it. i dont think that’s a narc, i think thats a woman not in love and looking for an attractive guy to take care of her… sounds to me like you are the narcissist and not the soon to be former spouse. what do you think about that? leave i am in the same situation, i have understood i am with a narcissist: we dont live together and to be more presize we live in 2 different coutries in europe. but even though he has been controlling me and my life. i have been to hell and back with him..but each time we break up (and its mostly him take the initiative to break up) he always comes back max 2 days later and i just accept him back! despite knowing this will happen again. if hates if i ask him a question and i can never say a word without him go to defence. he hates critics and he has always right. everybody are jealous of him, or want to be friend with him and all the other things mentioned above! he talks for hours and if i by mistake yawn he gets insulted that i dont listen to him or interested in what he says. he never ask about what is going on in my life but i know every detail about his work and life without asking. oh my god i got to get away from him!! i think, the narcissist do something to us to prevent us ever put them behind. and i also think the most relationshios here lasted for so long. i have started to think maybe the relationships/ marriage which lasts longest is infact a npd marriage. the place you get cought up in an evil circle that impossible to let go. you say you are with a new guy who is kind and not a narcissist my question is, why are you searching on the internet about to find forums and discussions about narcissime? afte all you have been through and started a new relationship. why would you still think about them? because they put their marks on us and we vill never be able to forget. trust me..you are not alone. many of us went back numerous times even though we know better. i believe victims are really good people and want to see the good in people and the lies, betrayal, abuse etc. is such a huge pill to swallow. i couldn’t believe i would ever put up with this horrible behavior, but i did, again and again and again. i finally prayed and prayed and god let me know in my heart that this person i was with is unfortunately not capable of truly loving or caring for anything or anyone. some of us go back to find out more and regret this curiosity over and over again. remember they are master manipulators! nadia…. having been married to what i have termed a “nice” narcissist for many years, i feel for your confusion in trying to figure out your relationship. this issue can be so so confounding. in my case, my wonderful narcissist tries so hard to be perfect and blameless (and better than anybody else) that it was just hard to line him up with the way a narcissist is traditionally defined by a set of behaviors… and narcissists are masters at hiding behind and staging behaviors to keep you confused… it just all felt so fake and cold, and i didn’t get clarity until i started to focus on the emotional hardwiring of a narcissist and how they relate (or avoid relating) to the world emotionally. so my advice, if i could go back and put myself in your shoes, would be not to focus so much on what he does (we all have narcissistic behaviors, and narcissists themselves can act normal so much of the time), but to start asking the hard questions about how you relate emotionally with this man. after a year of dating, you should have some answers (if you don’t, that is sort of an answer in itself). do you have the emotional relationship you always dreamed of having with this man (it doesn’t have to be perfect, but you need to be able to overcome the imperfections). can you bring your dreams, frustrations, fears, and hopes to him and feel completely accepted and supported? does he give you the freedom to be the you you always wanted to be? or do you find yourself walking on eggshells, and are you starting to question who you are becoming? do you have the freedom to be yourself with him, even when that doesn’t line up with his version of you, or does he become reactive when you have your own opinion? (remember narcissists are usually loving and complimentary when you are an extension of them… but threatened when you stop reflecting their world back to them). how does he react when you go deep, or are vulnerable? (mine would simply get up and leave the room or change the subject and tell me i was boring.) if you can start thinking of your relationship in these terms, things may become clearer for you, because it doesn’t really depend on figuring out if he is a narcissist or not, or putting a label to it. so…. how does react when you tell him that a behavior of his is making you uncomfortable? (owning your feelings of course, and not blaming him.) is his concern for your feelings and for the relationship, or is he more concerned with protecting his ego? if you haven’t had this conversation, why haven’t you? i picked up a number of red flags in your post relative to this area, which is why i responded, but truly at this point its hard to tell if it is him, or if it is you, or if it is the dance the two of you are doing in your relationship as you can reinforce narcissistic tendencies in each other. in my experience, getting emotionally vulnerable and honest with him over time is a good way to test the relationship by yourself, but you may want to sit down with a good counselor or therapist and review your concerns. little red flags in your intuition level almost never go away on their own, so pay attention to them. every good relationship should be able to work through these issues and resolve them with or without help, and i would make a solid effort in that direction before either moving deeper with the relationship or getting out. that is the only way to know for sure what you are dealing with. best of luck to you and your man, i hope you are able to resolve these red flags and that he moves toward you rather than away! i just recently got out of a year relationship with a narcissist. it has only been 2 days since we last had contact ( i blocked him from everything) and i am already struggling. this man has ruined my life. when i first met him he was amazing, he is very good looking, charming and we got a long so well. after about 4 months i started to find out that he was still in contact with his ex gf ( someone he always spoke horribly about). i then found out they had slept together. i cut off contact with him for about 2 weeks before i went back to him. this continued to happen over and over for the next few months, always with him crying and begging me for forgiveness. i then found out i was pregnant. him and i made the decision to get an abortion because we are both young and in college. this was an extremely hard decision for me obviously however, he was extremely supportive and caring and loving throughout the process. the day after i got the abortion he dumped me and told me he still loved his ex and did not have feelings for me anymore. of course i was devasted and went into an extreme depression. he still tried to contact me and make small talk with me after that and once again, begged for me back to which i pathetically took him back. that valentines day, him and i spent the whole day together and then that night i saw that his ex had posted a picture on social media of flowers he had sent her. furious, i decided to contact her and tell her exactly what has been going on and so she ended things with him as did i. out of rage he decided to post a topless picture of me on social media calling me a whore. so once again, i cut off all contact with him. i then meet an amazing man who treated me so well and really loved me. however, the n slowly started to creep back into my life. he would show up at my apartment in the middle of the night, crying to my roommates saying how much he loves me and he knows he has problems but he would do anything to fix things with me and make things right. and as disgusting as it is, i slowly let him back in my life, thus ruining my relationship with a sweet, caring normal person. me and the n get back together and everything is perfect for about 2 months. then we start arguing constantly. he blames me for everything and tells me his ex was a much better woman then me and that i should be cleaning, doing his laundry, etc. every day like she has done. he also says the reason we are having problems is because of the guy i had previously been with. he completely does’nt acknowledge all the horrible things he has done with me and if he does he says what i have done is worse ( not sure what i have done). my friends and family are fed up with me being depressed 24/7 and all beg me to leave him. i have never felt like an insecure person ever. he has turned me into someone i do not recognize and it is so scary for me. recently, i found out he had still been in contact with the same ex and i ended it completely. after him harassing me for about a week and telling me i should die, and that he never loved me, i finally blocked him from absolutely everything and have not talked to him in 2 days. i hope i have the strength to stay away from him this time because i don’t think i can handle any more of this abuse. hi sylvia, it’s been a year since your post and wondering how you are doing. i could totally relate to what you said. married for 18 years and finally got the courage to file. i filed because it was 20 years of pure hell. when he told me he forged my name on documents that finally did it for me among the many other issues. five days after i filed i learned that he flew his high school girlfriend to vegas and met her there. i learned this 2 months later after i received copies of his credit card statements from my attorney. two months later he took my 2 kids to her hometown without my knowledge to meet her and her 2 kids. one month later after that he flew her here to look at homes together and while she was here my ex mother in law through a huge party (that was on my daughters birthday to cover it up) to introduce their new relationship to everyone. i felt empowered when i filed and felt relief that it was over even though i was very sad when he left but i knew i had to get out for my health and sanity. when i found out about her my world came crushing down on me. i could not function. i sat there in tears for months and shaking and couldn’t believe this was happening. i gave him all of me (big mistake and something you should never do) and he sucked the life out of me. i have now learned his is a master manipulator, has npd and i believe bi poler. i hope someone can relate to my story. i got pregnant before we married. he did not want this baby. i said i am keeping my baby and you can stay or leave. he stayed but after the dating honeymoon was over and i was pregnant he started going out with friends and drinking more. as i got more and more pregnant my fears set in and i married him. ( i took the ring off several times before i said i do) the next 5 years he did what he wanted to do and i was just a fixture that cooked cleaned and took care of my daughter. domestic abuse happened when he was drunk and he made me feel that it was my fault. i stayed like a fool. he made me move into his aunts house to save money after the baby was born but that was just so he had more money to spend. i felt alone, sad, drained and trapped for the next 5 years. i wanted out back then but then i got pregnant again. he harassed me to abort my baby for the next 8 months. i was physically sick from the mental and emotional abuse. i cried and cried and had to buy my crib myself just weeks before i delivered. at about 5 months pregnant i wasn’t feeling well and went to the dr. she told me i need to go on antibiotics because i had a bacterial infection from my husband cheating. the medicine made me double over with horrible cramping, he gave me not once ounce of empathy and denied any cheating of course. i had my beautiful son and i don’t remember my husband there much or being very thrilled. they say karma is a bitch… my daughter was 5 and my son was 11 months when i got the worst phone call of my life. my husband was in a very bad accident. his dad picked me up and drove me to the hospital. the dr.came out and i remember a team of nurses standing in a circle around me as i held my son. “your husband is paralyzed” another very sad moment for me. i stayed with him for the next 12 years and nursed him back to health. oh yes, i’m a very extreme giver and did it all. he knew i could handle it and thats why it worked for him. there was no thank you, no gratitude, no hugs and kisses. i was bought. i was now his nurse, caretaker, hired help. he even spoke to me in the third person. he was able to open a very successful business in his trade and made big bucks. he made so much money that he was now god. he was indestructible and i had better not get in his way as nothing was my business anymore. my business was to do his laundry cook and clean. he gambles with extreme amounts of money, he purchased many many many items as his possessions that just sit there. he collects things to fill his void. he did buy my nice gifts but that was only the keep me happy for a moment. he has lied cheated and manipulated his way to the top. i was nothing no more. he had found his fix. he manipulated me to feel sorry for him in the wheelchair, that he couldn’t do anything for himself (but he actually could and got around just fine and bought a sports car) and soon had the kids on board waiting on him. it’s was the xxx xxx show. it was all about him and his stuff and the wife and kids that stuck by his side and took care of him and loved him were just servants, fixtures in the house so that there was no loneliness for him and used us and controlled us so that he would feel good sense about himself like his getting the job done. he did not want therapy after his accident and i tried but he refused. back to the girlfriend (fiancé). he ended up buying the same type of house we lived in but right around the corner, for him, her and her 2 kids. he bought her the same car that i have but in a different color. it’s decorated the same way i decorate. he bought her flowers and jewelry from the same places her bought for me. takes her to our same vacation spots and same hotels. (very creepy) (how do i know this? i see bank statements and my son sees pics on instagram that girlfriends son posts) we were divorced 3 months ago due to the bifurcation he wanted and got granted so that he can marry her and now we are awaiting trial for assets so it’s still not over. so much more in between it would be a novel here. i just wasn’t ready to leave before i actually did. i can be mad at myself for waisting my life with him but i prefer now to learn and use this as a valuable lesson learned, in the journey of life. yes it really sucks and hurts bad at times still but i understand more now about what kind of person i married and what kind of person i divorced and what i will tolerate in life with anyone else. your not going to listen to someone who says run until your ready to run but i believe everyones story here can be so helpful and useful in making that decision. npd is very distructive. nadia, i have a similar situation to carol. it took 40 years of marriage before i finally found out, through counseling, that my husband is narcissistic. his family saw him as the hero and the perfect one. believe me, your man has found the way to manipulate your own fragilities and emotionally, you will end up looking like the crazy, while he continues to play your emotions like a yo yo. he will appear to all as the hero and the good guy. you will become withdrawn and terribly lonely. you will not trust yourself or anyone. it is a slow death of a personality, goals, and dreams. get out now. locate a qualified therapist that can help you become emotionally intelligent so you will be less likely to draw that type of a personality towards you in the future. otherwise, you may have the tendency to go from one relationship to another, repeating the same confusing pattern. i look back now and realize that it took my life, his mother’s life, his father’s life and anyone else he could manipulate, blame, and control to make him look successful. we both agreed that i would be a stay at home mom until the kids were in school. we have a fairly large family, no regrets there. but when it came time for me to go back to school, and get an education and training with the intentions of becoming employed in a profession of choice, he sabotaged me, and would not pull his weight with helping around the house and with the children. the last straw for me was when he made hurtful and discouraging remarks towards my academic achievements. i folded. my confidence gone! i lost all my enthusiasm and ambition and didn’t understand why. my folding just fed his behavior. i turned on myself and absorbed all the blame and all the hurtful remarks. i became a recluse. now, i am 61 going on 62 and i have health problems. we are still married. i stick up for myself, which means we have a lot of power struggles but the good news is, i don’t accept his blaming and i am better about not letting my emotions get out of control. we both are learning and trying harder to communicate and be more considerate of each other. so i have noticed improvement for about 9 months now. but, i have to be on my toes knowing that i have to stay emotionally strong/intelligent because at this age, change will be slow and minimal. they say it is never too late. i am stepping out by volunteering a couple of days a week. i am surprised that i am so uncomfortable doing this. but i know that i use to be an outgoing and a sociable person. i am taking on line classes just to have goals and to learn more about things that i wish to learn about. but what future is there for me now? i will keep progressing because this is my responsibility and also, now i do not accept being damned if i do and damed if i don’t. don’t wait this long. one professionals’ name. “melanie tonia evans”. it will be the best investment you will ever make in your recovery, hands down. i am just starting on my own healing journey. no one in the field of psychology understands what we have been through, and why we go back better than she does! blessings!!!! i survived narcissism, perhaps i can encourage others to work their way through it..it is difficult, but you have to realize they are the ones with the problem..why would i not be interested in helping others? sounds rather selfish to just say  ok i am better, forget about the others that are going through it.. thank you your words inspire me. guilt is what hold us back this is the narcistic weapon… after a 14 years relation. now only i knew that i was right. he is mental not me! i started to doubt that am crazy. he is able to brain wash me and make me feel guilty for nothing. i suffered a lot. i have been lonely forever. an accessory that has no single right! even sleeping togther! nothing. he deals with everybody in an arrogant way. he thinks he is intelligent and the best. he locks his mobiles. he never shares any information about his work, his friends, his family. if he is travelling, he tells me one or two days before. he built this up. i used to blame and fight for my rights. by time, i was accepting all what he is doing without any comment. he would go for silent treatment for days or weeks, he never cared. i had to apologise even if its his mistake to let things go. i started to ignore him and live my life. he never got bothered as if i dont exist. he never compliments me or actually recognizes me. when i talk about any serious issue he just ignores me as if am not talking. he can keep on lying and brain washing anyone infront of him and yes, i knew he was lying and yet i was believing. i was convinced!! yes! am broken to that extinct. i have two kids from him and i wanted to have a good family but this guy wasted my life and my brain. even home grocerry, he would buy the things he like not us! he wouldnt take me with him. my car, he chose it and i paid for it. i am separated now. he doesnt want to divorce because it doesnt suit his plan. it has been one year and he never apologized although he physically abused me too… am a wreck, i lost my confidence and i feel i will never be able to start a new relationship. am 33 and i feel being 77. my family know that he is a nutter but they dont understand how broken i am and think am exxagerating. i wish i ran looooong time ago. he is evil and i cant even hate him! dee, i have a question for you, since your father is a narc like you posted in your post, i have a friend that his mother seems to be one, and is very upset with me, and tells everyone that our relationship is not approved of by her, because its unhealthy. the only unhealthy part is when she is continuously yelling and screaming at one or both of us. we are both well old enough to be adults, and yet she wont let any female get to him, and if it happens like me and him, she will try everything to tear them apart, she has basically tore us apart, because she has threaten him things that should never even be thought of, but yet he doesn’t understand why i am still wanting him in my life. he is a very very kind person, but he has this person, that will track him down, if he is not where he said he was going to be, or if he said something positive about me, she would come over and raise hell, i am not sure if i should continue to wait for him, or just let him go, my heart says to wait, but my head says to give up. i am having a very hard time with this because of how close we have got, and all of a sudden one day he is not around anymore, and after every fight that his mom has put towards me and him, he has continued to tell me its not my fault, and to stay positive, and take care of myself, but yet i am worried sick about him, and his children, because i know way to much, that everyone in his family is denying the fact that i am right and she is wrong. can you please help me? hello, i’m in a similar relationship. not really, this isn’t a relationship at all. my girlfriend went out to run an errand on july 22nd and just now messaged me, she only wants her clothes back. nothing more said. if narcs have little to no attachment to people and basically suck the juice out of them to power their own batteries, i’m not going to worry about being nice and returning what she abandoned. is this at all a good idea, or will this just give her another reason to keep jumping into my life as pleases? i am planning on leaving the state any day now, i need distance and reduced access to lick my wounds. john, more than a narcissist she sounds like a sociopath. sociopaths have no empathy for others, like many narcissists, but the difference is a sociopath aims to enjoy hurting others either emotionally or physically. they manipulate everyone and everyone, including family, is just a piece on a game board for them to use for their own sick, self serving goals. it’s scary how many sociopaths there actually are these days including women. yeah i had one of these. he flirted with men and women to the point that he allowed others to put me down in front of him in order to get his attention and vise versa. my self esteem was destroyed and the longer you’re with them the harder it is to get away. he was great if no one else was around but the minute any person came around i was in the back seat and completely ignored or put down. i agree with elena….run !! and then build yourself back up so it doesn’t happen again. i joined a dating website and after a month, i met a woman last sunday and we are looking forward for a second date this coming friday but i find myself very anxious. there was an instant attraction between us and we both think that each other look better in person. we talked for over 2 hours. both of us are extremely satisfied with our careers. she has been texting me many messages since. it is happening at a faster pace than i like. if i am just looking for a hook up then this is a perfect opportunity but i am looking for a serious relationship. last night i wasn’t able to sleep well trying to identify what make me feel anxious. i think i have identified a few things that she said during our first date that i might have overlooked at that time because of the excitement but now i may be bothered by them: 1. in her profile she states that she has a nice career, nice house, and a nice car. 2. we are both successful with our careers, but she kept repeating that her coworkers are jealous of her because of her talent and success. 3. she mentioned that she has lost some gal friends because she would be the center of attention all the time. 4. her mom and sister and brother live in a different state. i thought she was mocking her 69 year old mom, by repeating her mom’s pleading in our native language, for trying to setup a family reunion. she didn’t join her family because that wasn’t what she wanted to do. what do you think? am i being too cautious because am divorced or you see real red flags? i have recently split up from someone i now realise was a narcissist. stumbling across this site by accident has really made me feel that i am not alone and while it’s tragic to read some of the posts and how awfully cruel people can be, it is strangely comforting to know that you’re not alone. as with many of the stories on here, i met my ex and she was wonderful. i met her whilst on leave from afghanistan and while a bit older and having a child (i am 10 years younger), she seemed everything i ever wanted; physically, emotionally and mentally. we had chemistry right off, we fell head over heels with each other. going back to afghanistan and having the sort of ‘wartime romance’ where everything is that much more precious, finite and heightened may be an explanation. having spent time time with her on subsequent breaks, then coming home, the reality soon set in. whilst i was possibly not the easiest person when i got home, all i really needed was someone to be understanding. things escalated and from trying to change my lifestyle and diet (i enjoy being healthy), to having to dominate every conversation and be the centre of attention, she began to display the signs of a narcissist. constant references to previous relationships and how guys were always approaching her were i thought just insecurities. although she had a child, her job was clearly the most important thing in her life and nothing compromised that. however, it seemed we couldn’t even have a conversation about current affairs without her finding fault and blowing up. despite my job, i’m not a naturally confrontational person. this makes things very difficult when the other person makes point after point, becoming more audible and almost building up to a mania….you cannot reason with them. i also found myself apologising and compromising in everything which i now know is not healthy. knowing what i do about her, a lot of this now makes sense. she is deeply insecure about whether her father loves her, she doesn’t talk to her sister and she sometimes feels isolated because her family live abroad. she’s been through a divorce and is a single mother and in so e ways all i want to do is to help her. however, i realise that’s not possible, because she will never truly look inwards and be self analytical. it’s been nearly a month and i feel that from initially being very low about this, i have made some progress. don’t get me wrong, i still wake up and all i can think about is her and focus on the wonderful person that she was capable of being. i guess i just have to keep reminding myself of the reality. thanks for listening….sorry for the long post! hi matt, this is basically about achieving a balance between giving someone the benefit of the doubt, and trusting your gut instincts. taking what you’ve said at face value my initial impression s of someone who is materialistic, insecure and narcissistic. humility with success is a very attractive character trait. it doesn’t matter how physically attractive someone is, they instantly go down in my estimation where arrogance and self conceit are concerned. you also have to question her priorities. if she is not willing to make an effort with family, how long until she treats you in the same way? then again, who us to say that you would not be good for her? perhaps being with you will make her a little more secure and less occupied with what others think or perceive of her. please forgive the cliche but only you really have the perspective to make a judgement. not sure if that was any help, let us know how you get on! hi to all, to all who have had a life that started with a blissful courtship and wedding just to have the world turned upside down within a short space of time. to go from having a future full of dreams hopes and memories waiting to be made to now be here 25 years later wondering what the hell went so wrong? i could never understand why my husband could behave the way he does and say the things he does to myself and now our children. if i was a wife who got us into debt or if i played around or if my nature was such that i lied to him then i could begin to understand his outbursts possibly, but i’m none of those my only crime in our marriage was to be there by him day in day out , supporting him through uni, standing by his choices and trying to keep the impression of a happy marriage to all who know us. when i see my kids in miserable situations that my narcissistic husband has created it breaks my heart to think that if only i had the guts to change our lives but the last 25 years of constant put downs and verbal abuse has sucked all the life out of me. my boys are 11 and 15 and see daily the struggle living with someone so self absorbed so self righteous , the atmosphere in our home is always tense and the walking on egg shells take any joy out of living. i work part time, look after kids , the home and do many other tasks related to daily family life. my husband feels resentful that he works full time and there for feels little need to do anything to help as far as he is concerned i don’t work. most days i cry when i look back at the last 25 years and think that once i was a happy teenager then meeting my husband put an end to my happiness . all those years wasted . if i were to become single in the future then i know for a fact that i would be single till the day i die as i’m never putting myself in this position ever again. will never trust another potential partner as they tell you everything you want to hear then when the novelty of a new relationship has worn off that’s when your life is no longer yours to live. never again! i’d rather live alone but keep my sanity , i’d rather the remainder of my life was mine to live and not be a door mat or a constant victim of an abuser. i believe ur correct i had bn married to a cross between these two types of people rolled into a one destructive package. we were married 12 years n fortunately he left me n the kids but his evilness continues n he only uses his parents, our kids n myself for creating toxic situations. we actually had a brief time were he left all of us alone to travel but when he retuned it was worst! what can be done to survive this type of person. this man has already helped cause the early death of his father with constant worry n bailing this person out of every imagine able situation n finally his father to die. i know people say that didn’t cause his fathers’s death but u don’t know all the circumstances n years of tourtière for a fathers only son… just let it at that n his father had no heath problems n had timely check up. this person then plans his dads funeral before the last his dads last breath n has already stole all the valuable items from his home within hours after the funeral. the are two children early teens n his mom that i am concerned what will happen now that he has will in hand n only thing that stands between him n millions are these children n his mom. what took his years to build as a great family has now been n will be destroyed by this outa control adult that is very intelligent w such evil! i believe ur correct i had bn married to a cross between these two types of people rolled into a one destructive package. we were married 12 years n fortunately he left me n the kids but his evilness continues n he only uses his parents, our kids n myself for creating toxic situations. we actually had a brief time were he left all of us alone to travel but when he retuned it was worst! what can be done to survive this type of person. this man has already helped cause the early death of his father with constant worry n bailing this person out of every imagine able situation n finally his father to die. i know people say that didn’t cause his fathers’s death but u don’t know all the circumstances n years of tourtière for a fathers only son… just let it at that n his father had no heath problems n had timely check up. this person then plans his dads funeral before the last his dads last breath n has already stole all the valuable items from his home within hours after the funeral. the are two children early teens n his mom that i am concerned what will happen now that he has will in hand n only thing that stands between him n millions are these children n his mom. what took his years to build as a great family has now been n will be destroyed by this outa control adult that is very intelligent w such evil! hi i’m new to this but no stranger to living with a narsasstic husband. been with my partner 27 years and married for 25 of those. it’s been a struggle to keep going each day as you never know what each day will bring. the constant emotional rollercoaster ride has been draining and walking on eggshells is the norm . i’ve decided to write down in a book all the memories i have of our years together, the events that have left a permanent scar on my mind. was so shocked when i started to write at times i had to stop writing as the tears were blurring my vision. it’s only when i’d finished writing and took the time to read through my memories that i had the gut churning realization that i had spent the best of my years giving and never receiving. my husband can be ignorant, arrogant, selfish and always has to be right. we don’t communicate, i gave up any notion of communication years ago. he will get annoyed by issues i bring up and he starts yelling never lets me respond and then walks away if i do get to speak. our 2 son’s are 11 & 15 and for years have witnessed the outbursts over trivial and minor issues. my eldest son has no respect for his father now after being on the receiving end of verbal abuse from a young age. when we first met he smoked cannabis and i didn’t really think too much of it as we were so young and i just assumed that it was something that he would grow out of. how wrong was i he is almost 50 and has smoked this stuff virtually every single day. i have no doubt this has an impact on how he behaves but he would strongly deny it. when he picks upon things that he thinks i should change or improve on then i can’t help thinking what a hypocrite!!! if only he took a good long look in the mirror at his own behaviour, like that’s ever going to happen? at present we live in the same home but have no communication ,we sit in separate rooms and for now i don’t see any future. i feel like a shell of a person and only do the daily tasks on autopilot. don’t think things will ever get better but i have no real way of leaving as i only work part time don’t earn enough and no way will his pride let us put the house up for sale as that would show everyone that the marriage failed and he wouldn’t want the embarrassment of that. is there ever an answer or is this it forever? i’m on the internet daily reading various blogs regarding narcissistic personality disorders and any information regarding sociopaths. i to am currently married to a man that exhibits all the traits and characteristics of both disorders. we are separated and i plan to divorce as soon as the 6 month waiting period is over. we were only married a year to the date when i packed his belongings and asked him to leave. it was very ruff at first but as each day passed it got easier and easier for me. he goes out of his way to communicate with me, there have been instances where we have to communicate but not often. i continue to maintain no contact with him unless its absolutely necessary, even then i allow him to ask what he needs, i answer him and then end the call or respond by text. i don’t give him any power over my life and i let him know that his words has no meaning or any power over me. i’ve read many of your post and just like you all i’ve asked myself why didn’t i see any of this prior to marrying this man, well, we all know that these people are great actors/chameleons. they tell you just what they think you need to hear to bait you in (love bombing). its all about them and “their universe” that they have created in their heads. my husband is very active in our church and works diligently with the youth ministry. everyone at the church thinks he’s sent from heaven above when in all actuality he’s satan’s son. i’ve left the church and i now fellowship elsewhere away from him, because at the end of the day none of these people will believe who he really is if i tell them. i’m sure he’s smeared me to those who will listen but i don’t care because i know the truth. i just really want to encourage someone and let them know that things will get better. it’s a daily struggle when you have been emotionally/mentally abused by someone you trust and love (d). i read this a few weeks ago and it made sense to me… ” love is giving someone the ability to destroy you, but trusting them not to” … do not allow this situation to taint your perspective about other people, there are plenty of good people out there, we just happen to trust the wrong person for the right reasons.. their lost! to those of you that are still on this journey in dealing with a disordered person whether it’s for the kids or finances, try not to loose the focus of yourself, keep contact with those who know you, love and support you. there are also many support groups (online) that has been very helpful to me, my favorite is lovefraud.com   this site is very informative and supportive, honestly it saved my life. i wish everyone the very best life has to offer, pray for me and i will continue to pray for each of you   god bless you all! you have been “trained” to accept their abnormal behavior……..i know….been there done, that. too little….and way too late. life is too short. dump her. run as far and as fast as you can. people like that have no life energy to give and really? isn’t it time you lived you own life? not to someone else’s insane expectations but of your own? don’t you deserve to be loved? not on someone else’s terms but on your own? these nasty narcisstic people are pathetic pathological liars they have no life energy of their own…they just get their kicks on sucking off of other normal people. hang in there….there are alot of other “normal” people out there waitng to love and be loved. all i can say is thank god for you! i have always joked that my self loving wife was a narcissist. this article/posting pretty much confirms it. not only does it confirm it, but it feels as if i wrote it. just a little background, i have been married for 20 years to a lovely woman who is an unwaivering narciccsist. walk with me if you will back to the time before cellphones 🙂 when we were in the dating stage, i would often comment on the fact that my wife never saw a camera she did not like. this woman had shoeboxes full of polaroid selfies, and 110/120/35mm selfies. at last check, she still had not gotten rid of them. i mean that would be uncharacteristic for someone with such an illness. i do believe that a lot of it was instilled with her growing up. she lost her father at a vital time in her life. she was 13 when he was snatched from her in a major incident. she shared with me that their family had plans to do some big memory building things when he returned from his assignment, unfortunately that never happened. i am no psych, but i think that in her family trying to comfort she and her brother they created this monster personality. i have dealt with it as long as i have, because i thought we were destined to be together. i tell myself constantly that the stoic administrator that she has become is not who i married. i refused to see that they were on in the same. i would allow her to vent constantly, but if i offered any solution it was “i just want you to listen.” (?) our paths crossed in college our first year. i always found it funny that we had differentiating stories as to how we met, but there are many sides to the same story. her lifelong girlfriends would always confirm that my version was steeped more in truth, though. anyway at the end of the roller coaster ride that college was, there was this familiar face that was always around me. eventually, we started dating and i feel in love with what i thought was a sweet, sincere, and gorgeous individual. i thought we had a solid foundation, she was someone i didn’t mind sharing my life with daily. as life happens, she got pregnant and i left school because i had a family on the way. we got married. she had already graduated and began teaching, so i started behind the curve. i quickly caught up with her and we were bringing in an equal salary. well twenty years, three kids, a house, and dog later she woke up one morning (several years ago) and decided that she no longer wanted to be married. i cannot put a timeline on it because only she knows, but refuses to share with me. < (gives her a sense of power) i have tried as long as i can to hold up the standard/image that was created. then one day recently, she looked at me and said "why don't you just be honest with people?" after i picked myself up, i remembered what a counselor told me "you were married, but your wife left you a long time ago." that being said, i have now started to be honest. my relationship sucks b@!!$ because i am married to an egotistical narcissist with sociopathic tendencies. she likes to have her ego stroked, but not from me. she loves to be the center of attention anywhere but home. look at me… take my picture… joint functions get reported as "i" traveled to on fb. selfies galore and only doing things that feed into wifm (what's in it for me) she has detached herself from our children's life to the point that she will not do anything with them if i am around. i recently laughed, because she is looking for a new vehicle and simply said she wants one that inspires "hate". huh? who does that? oh yeah, narcissists with sociopathic tendencies.in the end, i am hanging on to get my youngest son (hs jr.) into college and then i'm out. i know things are only going to get worse, because it is easier for narcissists to project blame than to accept their part. i can no longer allow myself to be the target for why everything went to the toilet. wake up and accept some fault! (not going to happen, not going to happen) jenny, i am so sorry for the position you are in. i am also sorry for the folks posting other comments as well as for myself. having suffered the same way, i found strength doing 2 simple things. 1  you must disconnect emotionally and 2   protect yourself in all ways (physically, mentally, financially). this took me several years to accomplish, but i feel better about myself than i’ve felt in several decades. i’ve been married for 35 years, 3 grown children and 6 grandchildren. i was blind to everything until about 10 years ago. about 4 years ago, realized she would never change. been trying to cope everyday since. almost anything you do to rectify the situation is more likely to worsen it. remember narcissism is rooted in self loathing. trying to correct or enlighten a narcissist only draws more fire and hatred. like you, we live separate lives under the same roof and nothing she says has any real effect on me. i’m careful to understand what triggers her condition(s) and to recognize narcissistic feeds when i can and manipulate them to my benefit. i never trust or believe her and i never take things personally even though they’re intended that way. i won’t specify all the abuse, there are plenty of stories to read on this blog and they’re all the same. i now realize the abuse has been there all along right from the beginning. i was too starry eyed or busy to recognize it. having said that, i will not leave my wife, even though i am not and can never be in love with her again. anything i do to her will only ultimately hurt my children and my grand children and i would never do that. she appears to be a good mother and grandmother (her saving grace) and i (we   my children) take great care to make sure she doesn’t become abusive. she sees them as support for her grandiosity and uses them against me every chance she gets, but they understand, so we endure. so, the best i can do is try and forget and heal. i can offer solace and advice and perhaps down the road find the strength or the smarts to do something else. i have found, after my own run in with one, that the answers are indeed within. our world is so externalized that we are led away from the internal world within. our childhood past shapes us thus our subconscious seeks those unresolved issues in our adult lives. we become victims, or prisoners, of our own minds hence our vulnerability or inability to see what’s coming, or see it but the ego can’t let it go (perhaps playing the rescuer). i’ve explored, the one room book of my mind, and seen my own triad of falling victim, rescuer or persecutor and the inevitable attraction of the same. having found much inner peace, through real understanding, in seeking truth, not subjective truth, i believe i have found what most search for but unable to attain; unconditional love with another, but only first through acceptance and love for myself. you have to have within before you can give without. i find it is easy to now recognize when others are not genuine and appropriately deal with them. i have learned to trust my emotions and especially my intuition, that inner voice. that balance of mind, body and spirit is divine in universal law; we are both male and female, conscious and subconscious and physical and energy bodies that can lead us along spiritual lines. nothing new age here, very ancient. i periodically check, for own research, these sites to get an understanding or clarity on something i may not be certain but my real education came from developing asymmetrical thinking and meditation. once in a while i’ll comment if i feel it will be helpful. if i could recommend some reading try osho  the pillars of consciousness, judith orloff   positive energy, james hollis   why good people do bad things and, of course, anything carl g jung. exploration of myself, ignorance that was my own, was probably the most difficult thing i had to do. good luck on your own exploration! don’t forget to be patient and kind to yourself; we are after all, fallible. regards, sam hello jeff, reading your post from a year ago so maybe its a bit late to repley.. to anwser your question; look at the site of melanie tonia evans. she wrote extensively and in depth about the subject you are questioning about. good luck! ge in short: get out!! read up on narcissism. i was once in your position. i started my blog to help people like you not have to go through what i did!!! run!!! go to youtube and watch sam vaknin’s videos. 🙂 best of luck!! i am in a 23 year relationship with a woman that craves attention from men not that she has ever cheated on me. i found out after she complained that i was ignoring her that she had met a younger man on her cell phone on what site i still do not know and was sending him a lot of money from her inheritance until she found out he was a scammer. at first she was angry almost blaming me for him not being real and i also found out that they had been texting each other sexually. now she is finally asking for forgiveness and telling me she is so sorry! i told her i would stay only if we went to marriage counseling. she said she is going to get counseling for herself first which caught me off guard. i was glad she has decided to do this. people who know of this asked me why do i stay and my answer is love and commitment! everybody makes a mistake and i have forgiven her! i was 16 when i moved in with this 33 tear old man. we have been together for 40 years/ he has done nothing but tear me down, criticize everything i do from mopping the floor to how long i stay in the bath tub. he has called me a moron and a fing bitch saying i don’t know how to butter the vegetables…i have now taken up drinking to escape my reality… he is now 73 and i am 55 i cant believe what i am reading this sounds like my life i am so overwhelmed and don’t know what to do my girlfriend of almost 3 years has just ended our relationship and i am hugely proud of her. i have been displaying narcissistic behaviour and traits for well over 18 months, and she has been doing her very best to love me and help me to be the man i really want to be. we both love each other and i would love more than anything to be back together, we’re a perfect fit apart from this behaviour. how can i combat my narcissism? that is heart breaking. blessings shall be on your way, lots of love. i caused my family to fall apart at age 8 and i am proud of it i also caused bullying and abuse everywhere i went its fun suckers i hope i’m not repeating anything said in the foregoing posts, but this articles suggests that narcissism is something that can usually be treated. however, full fledged, diagnosed narcissists have a personality disorder that is extremely difficult to change, even with years of therapy. the disorder goes to the very core of their being. treatment may help them deal with certain issues, if you can get them to get treatment, but i have been told by therapists that it is very difficult help true narcissists therapeutically and any progress can take years. that being said, narcissism exists on a spectrum and people on the less severe end of the scale are obviously better candidates for therapy and treatment. personality disorders are distinguished from mental illnesses such as depression, anxiety, etc. that can usually be treated to some extent with medication and/or therapy. i found the following article instructive: what a wonderful and well written article, thank you. i was married to an n for 13 years. he believed himself to be a genius, gifted entrepreneur, economist, author, screenplay writer, designer, ceo of his nearly fake “companies”, magazine editor in chief, and social activist. he spent thousands on websites for all of these ventures. his books were a joke. his screenplay was amateur and poorly written. his business ideas were poorly thought out and hare brained. he set up a non profit website online, and said it dispensed health insurance cards, and had a bank and online university. the articles were poorly written and the content was a joke. he truly had a full on mental disorder and was delusional with these ventures. it was so embarrassing and pathetic. my n would lash out and demean me if i dared to question his ideas. he would let the mask slip, and say things that indicated how he felt about me….beneath him, disposable, and replaceable. at 30, he started commenting on how he could see that once we were in our forties that he would like to start a second family with a much younger woman because he projected that i wouldn’t be very sexual at that point. after i had our two kids, he would often criticize me for wearing gym clothes too much (kids were 6 months and 2.5 years…please) and would lament how his ideal woman would wear dresses and heels all day. when we split, he was 32 and began dating his current gf who was 19 at the time who was very attractive as many people are at that age. i remember seeing her strut around his crappy old rental house in heels and a dress at 11 am on a wednesday or something. he would be in the corner at his cluttered disorganized makeshift office area working his job as “ceo” of his latest “venture.” he would give her a title such as “marketing manager” or something of his screenplay or book or delusional online financial university ….yes, from this crappy run down rental house, he fashioned himself as the creator of an online financial university with an accompanying book on economy (which was only 1/3 written) and the editor in chief of a monthly magazine (which never produced an actual issue)! fast forward…we divorced and i have mostly raised our two kids with my now husband of 7 years. we have a normal and sane life, and are doing well financially. my n is 42 and still with his equally narcissistic girlfriend of 8 years. she is 29 with an associate’s degree and works a menial job for an auto part chain as a recruiter. she has gained weight, and is on prozac. he has no money, and can barely pay the shared rent on their crappy 1 bedroom. he works a very low level sales job and his coworkers are all in their early twenties. after years of his delusional endeavors which wasted time and money (became deeply in debt) all of his thirties, he was forced to take a real job and it is at the very bottom of the corporate ladder. it eats him alive to have to face who he really is…just an everyday schmuck. his peers who are his age now have vp titles, houses, beach houses, take vacations, nice cars, college money for kids, money in the bank, and he is barely scraping by with his entry level job. he goes to sales trainings with 23 year olds. i have heard him have complete desperate meltdowns about how “f…ing” unfair life is! he was very distraught when he took the job because it forced him to have to see who he really is in the real world…..average at best. actually, he is faced with the evidence of his life circumstances that he is below average. at 42, many others are far ahead of him now. this was extremely difficult for him to face! he couldn’t magically put together another website and dub himself ceo for narcissistic supply…no money left to do it and he was very very behind on his child support payments. he could no longer afford more props. these were just a few of his crazed exploits! he took $50k of our house equity money without my knowledge, and started a wine company knowing zero about how to distribute wine. this turned into a total debacle, and total waste of money. anyway, i could go on and on. it all did a number on my head for many years after we split. it was tough coming to grips with the fact that my ex viewed both me and the kids as very disposable and replaceable. he just viewed us as props in his life , and there was never any authentic care or love towards me. i was just an opportunity that came along because i had well to do parents, and he saw a chance at getting into the family business. oh well. look at him now. karma’ s a bitch! i know your pain. its a crazy life of isolation that they exhibit. sorry. tina montella goodness…i am so sorry. perhaps you can gain strength and leave. pray! tina montella wow…wow….and wow….it has opened my eyes. yes….perhaps they do want to destroy other people so they can be elevated. a good point. i guess it is a disorder…. crazy stuff. but real stuff. so sorry sorry for your loss. we do lose people such as this along the way. they just think mostly about a themselves. i wish it was so easy to get up and go. i have a 16 year old son. i want to go out more and be strong. its a struggle. been v sad. i’m drained.i feel your pain jeff, how many times i have spoken those exact words ! i don’t know anything about you but i know i know full well the hell you are crawling out of and the literally cellular and molecular damaging pain you have felt but, in terror, did not understand, i am not aware of any post traumatic victimization experience where understanding, empathy and finding the victim unconditionally credible is not possible at any meaningful level by non victims, including loving family members and one’s dearest friends or even, as in my case, a therapist. the therapist i had seen for years, reporting to once a week to try to get a grip on my debilitating pain and suffering.” why”, i would scream,”why does this woman have this power over me, and the opportunity to regularly hurt me in so many ways and seem to enjoy setting the stage to do it on purpose? all of this i have come to know is typically seen in emotionally abusive relationships. it was diagnosed that clinical depression that was causing the erosion of my very person, my health and fitness, my finances. after all, this is what miss covert was drumming into me every day, ” you are depressed, you are bipolar, you don’t care enough for this relationship to accept it and get on medication so we might have a chance. was i ? i started to doubt myself. here i thought i was coming apart because the love of my life, my destiny, my perfect woman, my inspiration to meditate and practice yoga, to become more mindful. the woman with whom i treasured an intimacy i never thought possible. with my face pushed to her neck, her very scent warmed my blood and made me feel lightheaded, her skin was my skin, mine was hers i would miss a breath with happiness as i saw her coming into my drive for the weekend. we talked easily and endlessly, traveled together as symbiotic soul mates, we often caught people staring at us smiling. an old woman in a bar approached and said how wonderful it was to see two people so in love. she thought of her lost husband through us, we were so touched. we felt so special together, so fortunate to have found each other after our earlier marriages ended. after a previous 18 year marriage,once a week involved separate bedrooms. . was vicious to me, and fucked with my head. she often dropped the silent shroud barely speaking to me leaving me sure i had done something painfully inconsiderate to displease her so.instead of running away from this little nebbish as fast as i could i lived in abject terror she would dump me again, just like that, with the snap of a finger. before the narc was out of the bag, we even had a few sessions with my therapist and then another where my little covert’s performance was dazzling. how cocky and sinister was she? to come to my very therapist with me and by using magic invisible strings recruit the good doctor to”her side”. i left those sessions so shaken and unsure to question if i attended someone else’s counseling session in error. the soul shattering aha moment came when a dear friend sent me a link to a video on youtube with a note, better sit down , this sounds like her, and worse, it sounds like you! sent me to the precipice, 15 years, conned, gamed, hurt on purpose, my life’s dearest memories fizzed into the air like a dissolving effervescent its going on two years since last contact. i;ll never return to the person i was. at 62 i know i will walk the remaining trails alone. i am centered and content, yet empty for 2 years before my ex husband and got married and decided to have kids, he never treated me badly, when it came to other people he was insensitive, he is a person of authority at his job, obviously, you live and learn. but lets get one thing straight on the part where it talks about how to cope with it, so narrow minded to one side. my ex husband did total 180 on me when we became pregnant, yes the reality of cost too us by surprise, which i did offer to work, he insisted i didn’t, damn serious about it too, however i see it i would have been screwed if i did or didn’t. he make damn good money and was able to spend money on himself and when he couldn’t because of a choice we made. he started to be so hurtful and mean, making me feel like a burden that my pregnancy was a mistake. before hand we never fought for about 6 months of that crap and going to him countless times in a civil way to express what he is saying and doing is hurting me, he would say he was sorry but continue to repeat and treat me like crap he would tell me you know i don’t mean it, why can’t you just let is roll off your back? the more i went to him about the cycle that seemed to always repeat it self he eventually after he got fed up with me coming to him started to act out even more, we are no longer together or living in the same house, we have been divorced for about a year now. i can’t get away from him because we have kids, i recently asked he stop coming over during the week to see the kids, of course i didn’t tell him he is being, cruel, manipulative, no regard for my feelings and he was and still try’s to create situations either with his words or actions to get a reaction out of me, then says “i never said that” “i never did that” he would say to me “you have serious behavioral issues” another thing, this year he has the kids for halloween and christmas day, we had made a plan to all go trick or treating with our kids at the last min i some how pissed him off, because god forbid i get up set at what he says and does, he tells me you know i have the kids for halloween and christmas day. i would watch it? i don’t understand that behavior, i was never raised like that and even if i was would still have a strong sense of what’s right and wrong, hell i do the right thing even when i don’t want to. its clear in this world you trying to be a good example doesn’t make the other person want to act in the same way. i am seriously thinking about doing what i told myself i would never do which is getting a restraining order, the way he is, is so destructive and emotionally speaking he is causing so much distress in my life, i’m trying to move forward. he see’s that i am and it just gets worse. i’m glad you got out of that before kids were even possible, although in my situation, once i became pregnant my ex husband made 1 80 change on me. (i would never regret my kids, i just wish they had a different dad) its not easy even now and i haven’t lived with him in like 2 years its has gotten way worse since we have kids now, at least he’s a good dad to his kids for now, i hope he never proves me wrong on that but someone who is a narcissist, you just never know. no your not being to cautious, major red flag in my opinion, you wrote this in august, so a little to late on my response, if you were in a relationship with someone who was a narcissist and have healed a good amount you will be able to see red flags, which by the looks of it, you have. the fact she turned down her own family reunion is a clear sign to run for the hills, she seems to be “all about me, kind of person” who can’t keep lasting relationships of any kind, when it comes to family, they love you no matter what and she doesn’t care to see her family. i hope you made a mad dash run for the hills. my daughter is a beautiful fun loving person. 2yrs ago she met a boy and fell in love for the first time. she is 26 yrs old, was a model and was always so much fun. after reading most of these posts i now know her boyfriend is a narcosis. he loves himself and no one else, he constantly looks at himself in the mirror. he lies about who he is and things he did as a kid. says he was picked for the nhl but it fell apart when he hurt himself. every party he picks fights if no one is making him the centre of attention. he lies to her about other women, has been caught by her and denies he was with another women. in the past 2 yrs i have seen her slip away. she has lost all her friends, all of our family cannot stand him and last year he was band from coming to my house for picking a fight at our sons stag and doe. he pick fights with anyone who pays attention to my daughter and not him. he was not invited to our sons wedding , and will not be allowed at my nieces upcoming wedding as she does not want his drama. my daughter and my niece were best friends before him. my niece hates him and is getting married soon and my daughter will not be in the wedding because of him. recently i discovered he has npd we have tried to tell our daughter but she will not here of it. she barely talks to us because of him isolating her from our family and her friends. i need to help her understand who he is and what her life will be like if she stays with him…. please help!!!! what can i do to make her see the light on the man she is living with? … signed very concerned mom nicole, your post was a long time ago but for anyone wondering if you yourself are a narcissist just take this survey. it’ll tell you. hi very concerned mom, i can feel how much pain you are in from reading your post. it sounds like your daughter is a very lovely person and she has fallen into the “trap”….which is all too common. unfortunately, there really isn’t too much you can do to make her see the light. you are not going to be able to help her understand who he is, nor should you try very hard to. if you read some of the posts above, you’ll see that this cycle seems to be a road that the non narcissistic partner travels alone until they can work it all out in their own minds. however, there are things you can do. 1. always be there for your daughter. whenever you see her make a point of letting her know she is loved by you unconditionally, always and forever, and nothing can change that. 2. while you may not be able to invite him to extended family events due to how others feel about him, continue to invite the two of them to do things with you. take them out to dinner once in awhile, or out for some coffee. even if you can’t stand him, try to suck it up and endure for her sake. if he treats you rudely, try to get through it with grace and maturity. she will start to see how shabby he is treating her very own parent, and hopefully this can help to fuel her inner resolve that this is not the right man for her. 3. continuing to invite them to do things with you will help keep that line of communication going with her. 4. help build her self esteem in any ways you can think of. compliment her on how good she looks, on how well she is doing in her job, how nice her home looks…anything you can think of, without being too obvious. try to compliment him, too. i know that will be hard, but it will reinforce to your daughter that you are “trying” to respect the person she loves. 5. discreetly let her know that if she ever desires to make another life for herself, you will be there if she ever decides to leave him, that she should never be afraid to make the change because you are there to back her up. honestly, you might want to start some kind of small bank account or trust fund for when the day comes she’s ready to make the break, if you are able to do that kind of thing. i hope all this helps. i can feel how upset you are, however, this kind of thing can take time and you can’t tell her what to do. trying to point out his shortcomings or to “diagnose” him is going to push her away at this point, because she’s not ready to see yet. just try to always be a comforting presence for her and let your love for her shine through. try not to get discouraged. please come back and update to let us know how things are going! i’m pulling for you and your daughter’s happiness! thank you for posting this. i feel i understand your situation and have had a lightbulb moment where i realised the problems associated with my narcissistic boyfriend actually stemmed from my childhood, primed by my narcissistic mother. i was conditioned to be a doormat and feel comfortable in this role. now i don’t want to be a doormat and it is hard to overturn the habits of a lifetime. but i’m not giving up. i would say aside from being co dependent, you may look up and learn more about trauma bonds for insight. i have done the very same but on a bigger scale, i was with what i now know to be the worst kind of narcissist husband for 23 year…eventually when my youngest of 3 daughters was 16 i left…it was very messy and he vowed to never speak tp me again…after stalking and threats fir a few months he met someone else and over 10 year had loads of relationships and i knew at the time why all his relationships were failing,…stupidly to cut it short i bumped into him after all the daughters had told me he still loved me and dudnt want anyone else…iwas stunned and after that first day i moved into his house renting my own house out…it started text book style…but i had never heard of narcissm…ive been with him nearly 4 year now and its been hell..ive slept on more mates sofas after being kicked out of his house…which he always points out it is ours in his rare nicer moments…i realized early on he had not forgiven me for leaving him 10 year ago…but in his rages he tells me how happy he had been before he let me back into it…he is a drinker..is everthing these people are..vile to me..shows me up in public..puts me down all the time…tells me people talk about me being a slag…he knows i am no slag..but he will say anything to hurt me…we never got divorced so are still married…my house became vacent 2 week ago and he thought i would move out…so had been making the usual comments about out next holiday and jobs to do yo improve our 2 houses…then bump in 5 seconds its xmas eve..iknew it would happen cause it slways does…through him going into a rage fir no apparent reason…iwalked out…stayed out till 2 am at my empty house to come back for xmas morning and the family meal…he never spoke to me all day…i am in a great position to leave..ive left many times..once for 3 months then out of the blue a text asking me to go back…and evrry time i fall for it…he told me to shove his presents up my arse…something i realized he has told me most years we were together..my friends and even family think am crazy keep going back…but up to finding out on this and other sites that it can never change…..he is even telling me i am a psychopath. and i should get help…icould write a book about all the abuse this man has put me through….. its because they left you feeling i,ferior n thinking that you had the superior person in the ie the best you felt like you had lost. they are manipulative n manipulate your mind into thinking they are very important. i’ve never commented on a blog like this before but am very thankful for all the posts i’ve just read. i, too, have been in a relationship with a narc wife for 25 years. we’ve been separated for 5 & the last 2 years we’ve been trying to sort out our differences so we might eventually get back together. but, lately she’s been reverting a lot to her old behaviour. i’m 52 & she’s 56. our sex life is probably the most amazing it’s ever been in 25 years & i am scratching my head trying to work out why?! our kids are 23 & 20 & are both quite successful young people which i’m very glad about although my daughter suffers sim traits to her mum. but thankfully, she has been able to see herself from the outside unlike her mum & i hold great hopes for her welfare. my wife is an emotional abuser & a bully. always belittling everyone else & building herself up. seems enamoured by young & good looking men. this behaviour, along with serious outbursts of anger even when things are looking good have been going on almost as long as i’ve known her. it’s a nightmare living in the same city as her at times. christmas day she caused such a scene that when it was my turn to ‘answer’ (after the kids had had a serve), she eventually told me ‘f##k off!’….something she’s never done before & the past few days have escalated from there between niceness on her behalf to a fully blown argument yesterday arve. she told me recently that i am a ‘wonderful lover’….something she’s never told me before, nor has anyone else for that matter & i’m wondering where the hell that comment came from. she was sexually abused by her brothers when she was a kid, had a father who was an alcoholic, was very promiscuous in the teens & the list goes on. thanx for the ability to write on this blog & to anyone who reads this & comments. i really appreciate it. this post is for don, in this string, and perhaps for all who are considering ‘going back’ a quote on another site said something like “going back in a relationship with a narcissist is like giving them another bullet to shoot you with.’ i was lucky enough to end a relationship after 8 months. i couldn’t stand her flirting up everybody, and i mean everybody, i felt like just a small spoke in her wheel. i went back once, and it lasted a month. i loved her deeply and was committed completely to this person. but, i soon realized she would seek attention wherever she could get it. no boundaries. i understand that underneath it all she is insecure about herself, as every so often she would cry about her lack of accomplishments in life. it is tempting to go back, but, my advice is 1) we don’t need this person to fill up our life with excitement (it was very exciting). and 2) i started filling up my own life with excitement and things and people i wanted to do, and be with. what i have read about the narcissistic relationship resonates wtih my. my lower self esteem kept me in this relationship of being with a person who was always the center of attention. no more. my self esteem is better off without having a narcissistic partner. margaret, leave the relationship. the sooner the better. a quote i came across that hit home for me is something like, ‘getting back with a narcissist is like giving them another bullet to shoot you with.’ i know from my own experience that it is very tempting, the excitement, the love making, the sweet words. but it is not real, or healthy by any means. “a narcissists is a bitter onion wrapped in rose petals but what’s inside will make you cry…” from crystal healing for women i recently was told, that in life there are “life givers & life takers” and i was married to the life taker for too many decades. i recently read an article about narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths, and how you must break free from them. but… i know now, it took my husband leaving me, and then i was able to see his utter inability to really love me, only himself. i gave me heart, and soul to this person, only to have him use me, abuse me (emotionally  not physically), and then he threw me out like i was garbage. yep, after 34 years of marriage to my husband who walked out on me last year, and now drives and lives in a big rig truck, i stepped back after only 4 month afterwards, hurt, damaged, and angry too, and felt like i had been kicked in the stomach, and hit over the head with a brick, and started assessing just “what and who” i married. i realize now, that i married not only a narcissist, who belittled me, didn’t respect of value anything i did or said, but also someone who is socially and emotionally stunted in his growth, who cannot grasp that he did anything wrong, and can also never apologize to me or anyone else. he never had any friends around him during our marriage, but because i am in extrovert, and he was always either at to sea in the navy, or in the corporate world, and i was happy, with friends around me. it was after my husband left, that i reached out to those i had lost during my marriage to him, and they told me they always thought my husband treated me badly, and didn’t appreciate me either. but as they say, hindsight is always 20/20, and know i cannot change the past, cannot change events, nor can i change my husband. this type of person, like the one i married for many decades “sucked the life out of me”, and know it’s going to take many years of counseling, and recovery to heal from the damage my husband did to me. the book i read about these types of men, who suddenly leave their wives, and run away like they’re on fire is called, “runaway husbands”. this book helped me greatly to understand that his leaving me, and not for another woman, but maybe he is gay, not sure of that at all), to know that it is ‘him” and nothing i did. if anyone wants to read more about these types of people this website if for women and how to completely cut yourself off from them and heal. the letter i drafted to possibly give my husband one day, tells him that while his arrogance (and condescending ) served him well during his military and corporate life, it didn’t in his personal one. he expects everyone to apologize to him for their errors or hurt, but he can not do so himself. i am healing from this type of person, at age 57 years old, i am aware of who i am and have always been, and know who is toxic to me. regret is hard to overcome, and wish i could have a do pver in my life, because he stole so much of my life already. while i haven’t yet started meeting other people, both women and men, nor dated yet, i hope i can now see these types of people and have begun to learn to draw boundaries to protect myself from the hurt i experience with abandonment. please get “out” while you can…im so thankful that i stumbled up on this article and letters!!!! i have been going through this for 16 years never married and always tried to fixed the problem. i’m so done!!!! even though its hard!!! i have to do it for my son…all the best! would to share my story about my 3y+ relationship with a female who i strongly believe is narcissistic. if you could take the time to read trough it and help me confirm i was indeed in a relationship with such a person or not i would greatly appreciate it. in the beginning everything was great, super sweet and charming. bought me birthday gift even though i just met her a few days before my birthday and decorated my bedroom with sweet cards with her name and all sorts of stuff that reminded me of her. i got the feeling that i met this sweet lovely girl that i could fall in love with and build a relationship with even though i always had a strange feeling in the beginning that she was pretending to be somebody else for me to be interested in her, just a gut feeling that i got while being around her and from signs but i never followed it. i fell in love with her and everything was great, alot of passion, affection and what seemed to me at the time love, i found my soulmate. in the beginning i had alot of confidence and i loved her very much and i always treated her like a princess because my girl (first love) only deserved the best in the world. helped her with all her frustrations and insecurities and i was always there for her if she needed me but i quickly lost my confidence during a long process of being made ridiculous around other people, getting harsh critiscm and being manipulated. she could be very negative towards others and me and would sometimes just treat me as if i did smthing wrong, always being negative towards other people who felt good or weren’t doing the “right” things. would simply tell me i’m pathetic if i said smthing she dind’t agree with. i was blind by love and i would see her constantly searching for attention from other men, looking at them in a seductional way and because i believed that you need to be able to talk and be open if you love each other i always confronted her with what i saw, which is stupid when i think about it now but i couldn’t believe that this sweet girl i fell in love with could do this and would cheat on me as if she dind’t have a conscience.. she would tell me i’m being jealous and i should stop talking and worrying about it because her last relationship was broken because of jealousy, so i told myself, i’ll just trust her and not worry about it. in short whenever i wanted to talk to her it was always my fault and i could never get an honest response. we had a sort of long distance relationship and at some point it seemed like she dind’t need me that much anymore. she would make excuses in my place if i wanted to come to her and once told me she was happy i wasn’t living close to where she studied psychology. so i gave her all the space she needed and i dind’t want to be too choking in the relationship, i always blindly trusted her and gave her all the freedom and space she needed until we ended up just seeing each other in the wknds, i figured we will live together after her studies so i can aswell enjoy my free time until she is rdy and i had a job by then because i was alrdy done with my studies. yet i would hear her everyday over the telephone and i always had to be there to listen to how this friend of hers did this or that and she dind’t like her anymore and stuff like that and if i dind’t give her the attention she expected from me which was tiring at some point she would get very mad at me and give me a silent treatment. at some point she started telling me she was doubting me/us but she could never openly talk about it or explain what the real problem was, it always felt like it was me who did wrong and i have to change. even though i adapted and tryd to change sometimes it was never enough, there was always something and it felt like i couldn’t do good enough for her. at some point she told me she wasn’t in love with me anymore and i felt like she was breaking up with me, i dind’t get it what was i doing wrong i was still the same guy even though she was now very dominant in the relationship and i lost alot of confidence over the years and at that point, by how she would treat me sometimes, sweet and loving when alone and a totally other person around others or her friends. she told me she wasn’t in love with me anymore but yet she dind’t want to break up and told me the same day she loves me.. i was confused and whenever i wanted to talk about it and us she would tell me stop talking about it and she dind’t want to talk about it anymore. i lost my identity and all my confidence and it was like i wasn’t really myself anymore, i felt less then i was in the beginning of the relationship. she told me after 3.5y that she kissed somebody else and she dind’t have feelings for me anymore, i felt even worse but she wanted to keep contact with me because she was worried i would fall back to how i was in the beginning, i thought maybe things will work out and i played along. i realized that all the signs, weird feelings and moments when i looked back where i had the feeling she was cheating on me were correct after all but i just couldn’t believe it. she tells me i will always be in heart and she is grateful for every moment with me because nobody was ever as good for her as i was and even though she broke up because we became too much like friends she hoped with all her heart that we could be friends again after the pain that she caused me in the first place. i played along because i just hoped we could get back together and i put myself in a deeper hole were now i feel scared, i’m over emotional to other people’s reactions/emotions and i feel lost, nothing to say and i feel as if i’m not at the present anymore, like people are trying to talk to me and vice versa but i’m having so much trouble focusing on the present and i feel scared and insecure.. i realised that i might have symptons of borderline and i did research but i never loved her because i wanted something from her or for my own purposes, i just fell in love and because she once told me her last relationship ended because she got cheated i promised myself i would never do her wrong and will always be faithful as a real good man should. i get the feeling that this relationship was very toxic for me as it feels like a combination of a borderline personality together with a narcisstic personality and i feel destroyed and empty as a person. also i forgot to mention that i only realized all of this after she dumped me like trash. i feel like all the energy is sucked out of me and now that i’m not the fun, living person that i used to be she just dropped me like i’m nothing. i lost contant with alot of friends and i never talked to my family because i still believed and loved this sweet girl i fell in love with, my family would tell me she is disrepectfull, negative and full of her self but i dind’t want to believe it. your ex partner is a narcissist & you are codependent which kind of makes you addicted to narcissist. one of your parents must have been one too & you never got their love or attention. so now that you are grown up you are trying to get this love & hoping to make narcissist love you & if she did it would be as if you got love of your parent that you are still yearning for. problem is that narcissist are incapable of loving anybody & are very damaged & self centred individuals. i hope that you stayed well away as there is no happy ending with narcissist   just devastation & pain. spot on!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it would be helpful to learn why you ended up in such relationship, to understand your own issues. this knowledge will be helpful in your healing. there is plenty of info on internet. get yourself in a good place & hopefully you can end up with a healthy person. co dependency and a narcissistic personality spells disaster. in an effort to be comfortable, a meek and mild person look for someone strong to ‘latch’ onto   thus this is the trait of the co dependent. the narcissist looks for a prey, someone kind and gentle    as if by a magnet, the narcissist can detect this meek personality a mile away. not sure how they can zone it and see so quickly, but they can. they pretend to be caring   to be a generally nice person and that’s the way they lure you in….right into the lion’s den. i entered into the den of darkness (man o man…..i wish i had known about this personality dysfunction of my soon to be husband). the sad fact is that i did marry him during one of his nice phases……shoot! *but i would have said “no” had it been otherwise. deceit. sneaky. lies. no financial support from his steady income. manipulation. unable to express the ‘love’ that they had previously shown. withdrawal and detachment. cheap on gift giving, but not cheap on themselves. demeaning traits. negative. controlling. anger   anger   anger. this is just a few of his traits….. our marriage was over as soon as it started   however i still tried to bring it back to life as i foolishly thought i had done something wrong. no matter how much i did for him, it was never the right amount, good enough, large enough etc. etc. i read (with wonderment) about an earlier comment from another blogger about the ‘honeymoon phase’…..that stung me to the core. !! i never had that opportunity to experience anything remotely representing a honeymoon. it was disaster immediately. he thought he would pull as fast one on me: within a couple months of being married, he started sneaking his things out   piece by piece…. until, poof all of his stuff was out, except his clothes and grooming aids. even though he moved nearly all of his things out, i did have the final say: i threw all of his clothes and personal items on the front steps of house. for my protection i immediately installed a dead bolt. later, i changed the locks. this is an odd quirkiness of this dysfunction   they start to ‘love’ you when they think that you no longer love them. he has since tried to rekindle (once again) before divorce is final. no more lion’s den for me…. it is early days & they are on their best behaviour at the beginning. what happens later on when they get rather nasty is that you continue hoping that this lovely charmer from the past will somehow reappear. problem is that charm was an act, they are only ever interested in their own needs. i would expect teenager to say those things but not a grown up health person. please read about codependency so you can become free one day. krow, i understand where you are coming from. my advise is to look ahead, not backwards. one foot in front of the other. one day at a time. little by little, the smile of your heart will return. have faith and trust in jesus. this helps tremendously! i was with a narcissist for two and a half years he dumped me after i had our son. it’s hard too understand what happened how the lies and deception was there.so many lies he fed me.he was confident self absorbed.at times i felt alone .he uses social media to feed his ego.all the relationships he had he said all the woman were crazy but to be honest he was the crazy one.he made me feel as if i was the one with the problem .he tries to have this image that he is the victim. he doesn’t even look for our son only to his convience and that bothers.i know in time that his relationship with his new partner isn’t go to last because its just for the moment.she doesn’t see that she is his next victim.her problem. please tell me how to get over this feeling. i have seen many narcissistic patients in my carrier. i am doing relationship counselling for almost 10 years.sadly, most partners of narcissistic patients not able to know that their spouse is in trouble until they realize that their relationships in real mess. i was searching for good explanation to help them and i found it here other than i know how painful is that to live with such a critic situation. do know yourself and your partner well before commit into huge responsibilities. too many broken families out there due to lack of consciousness of knowing each other well before marriage. i am divorced. and entered myself into therapy through an anger management program after my divorce left me feeling betrayed and unable to consider why my wife of 5 years and 2 daughters could possibly do what she did to me. i learned that i suffer from narcissistic behavior, and that i was torturing her. and a woman, even a good one can only handle so much. i have learned a great deal about myself since that time. dedicated to staying sober and celibate i began my journey to correct my behavior. now 10 years later, i have found myself in a wonderful relationship with the most amazing woman i have ever met. we have many differences yet we have managed to have an amazing relationship. and now with a recent promotion at a new job, we spend less and less time together and i have noticed an increase in alcohol use. we have an increasingly difficult time communicating and i am so afraid that my behavior is becoming tortuous to her. she suffers herself from depression issues and she is also divorced. she has been off her medication for more than a year. we have both agreed that we need to see a therapist. however the financial stresses of life make that a difficult choice. we both have work. my income is so tight due to child support and ex house payments. yet i am aware of my behavior and find it difficult to constantly monitor. it is very difficult living as a narcissist. it took 15 weeks of therapy just to accept that this is a reality of myself. i really want to do this right. i do not wish to torture my mate. and find it increasingly difficult to bite my tongue and just listen. the frustration is that it seems like i am the only one that does listen. i have a very good relationship with my 2 girls, but for how long if my behavior is not corrected. i am doing my very best in finding outlets to my behavioral disorder. however working around the clock and only seeing my lady in passing through the week is challenging. i have a history in substance abuse.. in my childhood i had a wonderful family.my little sister has a wonderful husband. my mother passed away at the age of 43. my father is a pilot and flies all over the world. i am so proud to call him dad. yet i am the black sheep. i moved out of my parents house when i was 16, married at 19, and divorced at 23. now 32 with 13 and 11 year old daughters that live more than an hour away, i am finding myself falling back into the same patterns. all i hope from this post is to give a little insight from the mind of a struggling self aware narcissistic man. my story about my ex is almost exactly the same as yours.. change a couple of details (like from wine to another business).. but he married me for my parent’s money and to make children to worship him. many of my friends think he is gay but hates himself because of his religious disposition to not accept gays. if he is not gay, he certainly withholds sex as a punishment. many narcs get wrapped up in porn and he certainly did. it is more lonely being in the room with a person who ignores you than it is being alone. now i have no money left so at least i won’t attract a narc! to don, who dealt with the romance scammer thing. i dealt with the exact same thing, except she fell for two of them in a row and basically spending my money to try to get her boys toys here. i allowed her to exploit me for far too many years. now it is quittin’ time! i hope you are doing considerably better. i know only a few months have past. you are, and will be far better without her. i am a 56 yr old male. i am currently several weeks into “no contact” after spending 7 years on again off again with a somatic (sp?) narcissist. it hasn’t been easy but i believe i am managing better than most (please see #2 below). i will not go into detail about my specific experiences or the pain/damage i experienced as sadly there is not much to add to what has been shared here already. with 2 exceptions; 1) i have read that somatic narcissists tend to focus their “false self” image on their (superior/special) beauty, physical attributes. therefore sexual attention commonly figures prominently as their most valued type source of supply and so seeking inappropriate attention and conquests (infidelity) figures prominently in their behaviors. i have seen this written about extensively, but simply as their “flavor” of indulgence for their craving of attention, adoration, power. however i believe there are 2 other equally powerful drivers to this behavior. specifically, the resultant fear, humiliation and insecurity engendered in their so’s is a tactic of both control and punishment. my so’s outrageous flirtation (often in front of me) and actual affairs seemed to frequently immediately follow those times in our relationship when i either made requests of compromise/accommodation (no matter how modest, reasonable   for instance my insistence that she house break her dogs before i purchased a house for us to live together) or on those occasions when i managed to salvage enough self respect and dignity to attempt to “defend” my boundaries. in other words it was used to engender jealously, inadequacy and fear in response to asking for anything beyond what was offered, or set limits on what i was willing to give/accommodate. i have seen little to nothing written about his and perhaps it was just my experience, but the timing correlation was extremely high. 2) i mentioned above that while not easy, i believe i am managing/recovering better faster than many. i think this is because once i understood that the woman i loved   no was addicted to   the perfect soul mate facade, was just not real   rather a fabricated fantasy custom designed specifically to be irresistible to me   and that the real person was and would always be simply incapable of loving me back the way i needed/deserved, the hope of regaining that perfect soulmate which had locked me in orbit for so long finally dissipated. i call this my “matrix” (after the movie) realization. and just as in the movie, once you are disconnected from the matrix you can never go back (nor would you want to). realizing that the nostalgic past was a manipulative deception and there never was and never would be a future made disconnecting and moving on/forward the only sane albeit still painful choice. of course those realizations were (way too) long in coming and incredibly painful for me. but now that i’m there i’m finding my resolve at no contact easier to maintain, my feelings about the past 7 years diminished to a (albeit sad) waste of time rather than the crippling sense of loss of something that can never be replaced or found again. i still feel a lot of shame at the humiliations accepted/forgiven, boundaries trampled repeatedly. but those are things i can workout on my own. the hopeless sense of having lost something irreplaceable (it was always a fake) has abated and since implementing no contact i feel myself already recovering; the mist of depression is lifting, my self esteem and self confidence is returning, i am drinking less, re establishing my own social life, and am beginning to feel hopeful about the future once again. i’m not sure how or if my approach to thinking of this would be helpful or effective for others, but if even one person reads this and finds value i will not have wasted my time in writing here. my wish for all who have experienced this emotional horror the strength to move past this, no it is not your fault (you were taken out by a skilled predator who themselves was most likely victimized put on this miserable path as a helpless child by another predator), and the wisdom to find your way back to yourself and the pursuit of real happiness that we all deserve. its not that we failed somehow or aren’t loveable. rather we put our trust and gave our love to someone simply incapable of reciprocating. you can love a narcissist but they are unreachable. they don’t love themselves   not that they are unlovable. they are just extremely hard on themselves. all the rest is not even worth writing about because it’s all out on the web by now. also, a lot of people come on forums like this and write about how much of a victim they were of their narcissistic partners, but “victims” also got some good out of the relationship too, namely companionship and a chance to give of themselves to someone in need, and a relationship where they might not otherwise fit with anyone else yet. my narc ex gf hurt me,but she also showed me a side of life (positive) i have not experienced yet so she helped me move forward. it was an equal exchange of what i gave her and what she gave me. so narc “victims” if they are honest, are not ready for healthy relationship either. its a personal evoloution process. it’s been almost a year since my narc ex girlfriend decided to leave me. it’s funny. to this day, i still take blame for the relationship ending. like if i did something else or something better or something different then it wouldn’t have ended. the truth is the end was inevitable. looking back, i know this now. she isn’t meant to last. narcs aren’t meant to last. they can’t. they lack the essential qualities for a lasting relationship unless they get help. i will describe a little of my ex’s actions to display her narcissism. first and foremost, she was incredibly quick to end the relationship over the smallest issue. a slight disagreement would lead to me coming home to find she has left her to my house on my couch. she always seemed to have one foot out the door, ready to leave when things got hard or weren’t easy. it was always me working to fix the relationship. whenever she had an issue and i asked her how to fix it or why she felt that way, her reponse was “i don’t know”. she couldn’t look inside herself deep enough for an answer. she just wanted it to be perfect and didn’t want to work at it. it was always up to me to make things happen. i bought her plane tickets for a trip but she reminded me that i didn’t pay for the entire trip or that the tickets didn’t cost that much. i didn’t take her out to dinner enough, i didn’t do this or that. it was all about what i didn’t do instead of all the great things i did do for her. i did all these nice things but i didn’t do xyz. it’s like those things just get thrown aside when she didn’t get exactly what she wanted. i didn’t do enough “right” for her. that is narcissistic love at it’s core. the first clue, looking back, that she is a narc is she wouldn’t learn to drive my car (side note she had her own name on her license plate). i explained to her how important it was to me that she learned. it would make me more comfortable and i would feel safer if she learned. we often went on long trips where i drove. if something happened to me, the ambulance wouldn’t get there quick. she tried once and gave up because it wasn’t easy. i implored her to keep trying and told her how much it would mean to me but she wouldn’t. she just flat out didn’t care enough and since it didn’t come easy, she wanted no piece of it. she did some unspeakable things to me and while i can list a lot of them, i will share one. an embarrassing one. my ex narc gave me a disease and didn’t tell me until after she gave it to me that she had it. not only that, she turned it around on me implying that i cheated on her. she would have a very hard time saying sorry. i actually found myself saying sorry for things i didn’t even do! even when she left me, i said sorry! it was like i let her down. that’s the thing…they build you up and make you feel like you are greatest thing since sliced bread and when their fantasy becomes reality and the real relationship comes to light after the honeymoon phase, they bail. too much work. on to the next “high”. after it ended she told me “i was so good to you” like i am the one that ended it and that i am a manipulator. self projection? yup. to say she has no empathy is an understatement. i have realized the reason it is so hard, at least for me, is that i accepted so much from her and tolerated so much and she still left me. i loved her unconditionally but she is incapable of the same in return. funny, i actually talked to her about reciprocation in a relationship and she didn’t even know the meaning of the word. seriously. it is also hard because when you look back at what you accepted, you wonder why. why did i accept all those ridiculous selfish, self serving, acts of narcissism? i realize personally it has to do with my relationship with my father growing up but i get mad at myself for not ending it at any of these red flags. even at the time, i know something wasn’t right but chose to see the good in her and it burned me in the end because she is incapable of the same. i was an incredibly confident guy and i constantly questioned my actions. going through this turmoil and anguish (i’ve been in therapy), i knew wasn’t normal for a break up. i was made to feel so important. i was, in her words, her “world” her “future” “perfect” then just dismissed like a piece of garbage. we were actually shopping for rings when she ended it. she made me feel so incredible then flipped the switch without an ounce of remorse. i should have trusted my instincts when i saw she didn’t have any friends, she jumped from relationship to relationship, she was incredible obsessed in the beginning (how can that last? only led her to resent me because i didn’t live up to her image), talked about marriage way too early, was incredibly sensitive, i could go on but i loved her. truly loved her. part of me still does, i can’t deny that. i was so empathetic to her and her past (her parents marriage was turbulent to say the least and her mother treated her like a princess) but perhaps there is such a thing as too empathetic. i made excuses for her behavior when i should have. what an incredible learning experience. sometimes the one thing that we want most isn’t the one thing we really need. i remind myself of that every day. good luck to all narc survivors. there is hope! my ex narc was pure evil. evil to the core. after first he was mr. charmer, but umpteen years later realize he was mr. harmer. so many lies, so many lives destroyed. lie upon lie upon lie. take, take, take until there was nothing left to give. lied about $, lied about other women, made fun of peoples looks, houses, cars, weight, hair color, teeth, height, careers, he literally thought he was king of the castle and everyone else was beneath him. he blamed his first ex wife for everything that should have been a huge red flag. he blamed her for overspending $, being nasty, not stroking his ego enough, no wonder why the woman moved half way across the country to get the heck away from him. now i know why!!!!!! that woman was probably an angel destroyed by this devil. he always had a way of looking like mr. perfect christian mr. little lost sheep, more like a wolf. made fun of older women, menopausal women, made fun of younger women being so naïve and stupid, made fun of older men of not having any game left in them, made fun of younger men for not being able to compete with such an intellectual like him. what a joke! he destroyed peoples lives literally! finances, businesses, marriages, relationships, families, peoples characters, integrity. without a damn care in the world or skipping a beat. it literally makes me sick!!!! sick!!! sick!!! of how bad some of these fools can be. not sure if i will ever be right ever again because of him. looks like the jerk won like he said he would. he destroys everything and everyone just because. how sad. hopefully, i’ll get my head and heart back on track someday! my mother is a narcissist and my brothers and i endured her abuse moderately well because we had a wonderful, strong father who didn’t enable her behavior. i know how hard it must be for you, but you are very likely saving your kids’ lives. i knew something was wrong, i just didn’t know what. i knew my partner was controlling and manipulative and i knew i wanted to get away. after 17 years, i finally got away. 🙂 🙂 i started reading everything i could about narcissism. when the realization hit that she was a narcissist, i was stunned and sickened. it was like someone punched me in the stomach. i panicked. i thought oh my, all those years were not real, she isn’t real, what was real? am i real? i spent many a night curled up in a ball crying uncontrollably. after the breakup, she would contact me and say things like, i still love you and in the beginning i got suckered in, and then she would go back to her current girlfriend (narcissistic supply). or i would respond and there would be no response back from her. she already had her new narcissistic supply. she didn’t need me… not then anyway. there were little emails here and there, text messages which i now know were nothing more than narcissistic supply for her and had absolutely nothing to do with me, loving me, thinking about me or otherwise. it took all i had to not answer back. it took me a solid 4 years to get over the emotional devastation. it was the worst and best four years of my life. i found out who i was and why; what my family was about and how i ended up with a narcissist. four years to get over the hurt, the pain, the fear, the anger the shame… i remember thinking, i was with her for 17 years, why isn’t she hurting like i am? i need to have a conversation with her because we used to talk about everything, and i need to talk about why it happened and what we could have done differently. 17 years. ha!!! she was already with someone new in a few weeks after i left. not a trace of me left anywhere. a short time ago, i started dating someone for the first time and realized that uh oh, this person could be a narcissist. red flags were flying all over the place!!! i got out fast and never looked back. i realized i could still be vulnerable to that situation. i can spot a narcissist a mile away and a mile away is how far i want to be from them! i know that if my ex e mails at christmas time or anytime, i won’t respond because there is nothing in that exchange that is going to make me feel good and i learned that the hard way. several times. you can get away from a narcissist, you have to get away. you need to get you back!! i was 55 and i had to start all over again, new job, new place, new everything. today, i am fulfilled with my own friends, my family, and loving myself. your narcissist will never change. you will never hear what you think you want and need to hear from them. they are incapable of saying the things that you want to hear, that you should hear, but you won’t. don’t go back, don’t answer the phone, don’t respond. cry because you need to and reach out to a good friend to help you through it. get out…. now. you can do it. i am literally in tears reading these comments. i fell for this guy because he seemed so confident. he didn’t have much to offer tangibly. he explained to me that the reason for his situation was because he was recently divorced and starting over again. i admired his drive. we seemed to have so much in common. then one day he started to hone in on my flaws. things that he once said that he admired about me, he started to critique. he constantly pointed out my flaws and immediately pointed out hoe better he would have handled situations. he criticized my parenting, my children, my driving etc… i literally feel like i am walking on eggshells around him. he’s always boasting about how he thinks and how most people don’t have the mental capacity to think like he does. he’s rude, abrasive, has no regard for anyone else’s feelings, and everyone else is always the problem. in fact, that’s one of his favorite sayings, “i solve problems.” the issue is that everyone else is the problem, never him. he’s never wrong. i feel so insecure with him. i feel inadequate, like i’m not enough for him, although i know that i can honestly do much better. i’ve questioned frequently, if his behavior is compensating for something. i was reading these post’s and felt i had to reply. i work for the va and hold the position of a first line supervisor in my department. i actually had to look up the definition of this disorder because my service chief has displayed these characteristics to the letter. (note) i am not a disgruntled employee,. she has over the years of holding her position literally tore this department apart. i wont go into the details of it as there is not enough ink in the printer. she is where the buck stops as far as promotions go and any disciplinary action or any other factor that affects employee’s careers in this department. and for lack of a better way to put it; she is crazy. is there any way to expose this condition to others who do not have day to day contact with her? i have been where you are… am married to a narcissist ( and was the daughter of one). dated off/on for 7 yrs   broke up with two other guys to go back to this insanity… why do we do it? these narcissists are irresistible when they turn on the charm. they are experts at seduction and can lure you into their web without too much trouble. they have energy   larger than life personalities and create exciting drama every single day. we are addicted to the drama! when they revert back to their authentic shallow, selfish, nasty selves (devalue / discard) we can’t stand the emotional / physical abuse and have to get away. they make promises to do better and we believe the lies. it’s an endless cycle   and we, being the sweet, forgiving, people that we are…fall for it every single time until we get healthy. it’s a dysfunctional arrangement that we will suffer for unless you make the choice to deny your own happiness, dreams, wishes, rights, and everything you are entitled to in a healthy relationship. until you realize your worth   you are doomed to rinse/repeat. hugz. wow .last year i found out i am an empath, now i’m finding out i am with a person who has high tendencies as a narcissist. this relationship has lasted 15 years. i look back with sadness at my outbursts, my tantrums, my anger. all those arguments that had me slamming the door and driving around until i was calm, only to come home to “i was so worried about you” without looking away from the tv. i have had all my friends and relatives tell me they thought it quite odd that she would call them up and trash me, hoping to get them to understand how awful difficult it was to live with me. for years i thought i was horrid and have spent so much time on self help, working on making myself a better person. i have been emotionally drained and financially broken. all this time, i thought it was me being stubborn, mean, uncaring, unattentive, i could never do enough. i actually focused on becoming a better person to live up to who she thought i ‘was’. it’s a strange road to not be angry, nor bitter, nor surprised. those years i spent working on becoming a better partner had no effect on our relationship. except the part where i look back at ‘arguments’ and see them for what they really were. i choose to not beating myself up anymore. of my research of late, a trait which i haven’t seen is in the beginning of our relationship, the moment i introduced her to my friends and family, she would call them up and ‘chat’. it was as if she were ‘taking’ them for her new friends. i blew that off as me being paranoid. later, my friends and family awkwardly tell me that she would call them to complain about me. or if someone would tell her how wonderful i was, her remark would be “you don’t have to live with her” so needless to say, there is no ‘truth’ to any of these stories, no one could possibly understand seeing past the lies. and that is what that is. my goal at this point, is to not be a victim to the emotional sabotage that continues. every day, there continues, the manipulative ways of getting me to feed this unending vacuum. when i make new friends, or especially new business partners, i no longer make a point to include her. this is confusing to some folks. she becomes quite jealous if she is unable to take them into her life. one new friend quietly observed and understood the unfair work load at the house, and knew my vitality depended on leaving, but expressed concern about ‘not abandoning’ the partner in need (she became ill and lost her business over a year ago, and the business is now in our home). i am pleased with myself, as all those self help lessons paid off as i did not react emotionally to that statement. yes. and if you attempt to discuss the issues that are upsetting you, it’s now “always all about you” or you say anything about your needs, if you get a chance after listening to their needs(which never change even if you think you are trying to meet their needs) they don’t budge. then you realize ‘their needs’ are impossible goals. they will continue to blame. what i am trying… this time around… (yes it will always be just you trying to make things better) is to not bother with discussions or arguments or anything that may need a compromise. either they meet you half way or it isn’t going to get my emotional support. my new bounderies do not need to be discussed, my new friends, my new anything does not have to be shared. and if we are out of something, we are out. i will not fold under pressure to replenish what is ‘lacking’ in the household part. either way, my emotions are mine. and mine alone. they can say what they want, or need to, the words will not harm me, my emotional responses are my power and my weakness. oh i need help, i have been put down, i hate myself that much i dont think i could be with another, i constantly question his love for me, if he ever did? he never expresses emotions, i want the old him back, but apparently it was a fake him. i have 3 children (1 is his and im early pregnant with my 4th, his 2nd). i was leaving. i canttake feeling this ugly by him, i’m new to all of this. been dating a woman for almost 3 years and recently found out from her daughter that she (the woman) was actually diagnosed with npd numerous years ago. she divorced and has been single for the past 20 years. along i come and she fell head over heels in love with me. said she waited 20 years for me. kept wanting me to ask her to marry me. i haven’t yet and that (according to her) has been the problem. however, we had been dating for about 4 months when i discovered by accident an email from another man to her. she was planning a trip to new york to spend new years with him. all the time she was telling me how much she loved me and wanted to be my wife. well, she swore to me that she was not going to see this man anymore and that nothing physical ever happend between them. i’ve talked to the man myself and he swears the same thing. i believe her because this man is 70 years old (20 years older than her) and he’s severely overweight and down right gross. however, she’s a beautiful woman….former junior miss illinois. well, she has never stopped seeing him. in talking with her, he feeds her ego to the max (“i can’t believe i’m with you….you’re so wonderful…i’m crazy about you…ect”) i met her just a few months after my divorce. she says it’s all my fault that she’s seeing him because i won’t ask her to marry me!! well, i cut her off and she keeps coming back. i care for her deeply but i can’t take anymore of her cutting me down (f*** you, you’re a loser, you should feel privileged to be in my presence, there are 5 guys just waiting to be in your shoes, etc). i know….it’s my weakness for putting up with this but my divorce had a lot to do with it. i’m over that now and am finally getting my senses back. it’s been a rough road because she throws the line and hooks me with her charm. loaded question….any advice? because you are codependent who was previously mistreated by narcissist(usually parents) & that is the only type of love you have known so feels familiar. read on it, there is tons of info on line & it will all became clear. good luck in getting rid of narcissist & finding happiness with someone who is healthy. you were right yes, that is wonderful. had i asked the question “would i want my daughter to be treated this way?” , i would have been able to not only leave, but to stay away. instead of leaving and returning in a cycle that lasted months. i have just figured out what the relationship was. i remembered about narcissism, googled it, and bingo, there it all is. and while for months and months i have been being increasingly logical and explaining emotions as if i were speaking to an alien ( do you see these tears? do you understand they are a sign of sadness? does the sadness i am displaying currently have any impact on you? do you have any emotion in you right now that is a reaction to those tears? ). i knew it, and yet refused to know it. i attributed the lack of reaction or empathy to a deep insecurity; which it is of course, but there’s so much more on top of that. my only question is how will i know should it happen again with someone else? someone as attractive and suitable intellectually and sexually, but absolutely not emotionally. i hope i will have more sense. i think so. i am looking at how my own issues prevented me from staying away, even though the facts were lined up clearly and i could see and articulate them. have just read a few of these and i guess i’ve known for a while what i married 10 years ago. these are all his traits, i can say anything against him or mention his behavior at its all thrown back in my face. i cant do wrong for right and he would always ‘handle a situation differently’ i no longer have a close circle of friends, he put paid to that, i’m told ‘and don’t go wining to all your friends about me as they don’t give a shit about you’ i’m constantly belittled and put down. made to look a fool infront of others. yet!!!! everyone else thinks he’s mr wonderful, he’s always going on about how much everyone respects him, and likes him, but they dont know the other side, its like living with jekel and hyde. i’ve put on weight as if i dont eat much he starts picking on me, and sadly i’ve started drinking to much to try and blot him out, just gives him more fuel though. i see now way out as having tried to leave him, he turns into the most horrific mind manipulating bunny boiler, to the point i dont know if i’m coming or going when he’s done. and he says i have a mental problem, good point, andy. i’ve just got out of a relationship with a narcissist. even though i knew there was something not quite right about this person and his way of not being able to feel for other people and not understanding his own feelings, i explained it away as very deep insecurity. because he was able to articulate some of his issues   in the form of stories, examples of how “damaged” he was, and was very intelligent, and incredibly intense and attentive at the start, i knew even then that something was missing from him. a feeling gene. i thought he might be on the autistic spectrum, in fact, and even asked him about it. as things progressed, i became more and more lonely, felt more unseen, and felt that my feelings were of no importance to this person. they weren’t. he just didn’t care, except for how it affected him directly. the huge mistake i made was to choose this person as the one who was finally going to be allowed to see my vulnerability. having narcissistic traits myself, i recognized much of myself in him and decided that, because he’d volunteered how insecure / jealous / incompetent at relationships he was and the fact that i ‘got’ him (because of the similarity to myself prior to a good bit of work in therapy etc), that we had a chance. eventually i began to excuse away the lacks i felt, although i did get angrier and angrier. that made my anger an issue, of course. if i tried to say that it was something i was aware of and that it was born out of frustration and hurt, he would understand himself to have been criticized and respond in a tit for tat way. it just degenerated over months. very hurtful ending in which i was manipulated into uncovering a deception that stretched back months and helped to explain his ability to move from pathetic and yearning and completely hanging on my every word (which i disrespected as well as, at some level, enjoying the attention   i have to be honest) to an increasing impatience and disdain for me. because i had already decided that i had to, finally, drop my defenses and be honest with this person so that i could at least know that i was fully authentic   i hung around, stayed with it, in between bouts of anger and separation. an epic waste of time. except for what i’ve learned. that i chose this man because of the incredible chemistry and stayed with him because, in a way, he confirmed what i deep down think of myself. i fought it, but the pull was strong. bizarre that at this stage of my life, i have never been in a relationship with someone like that before. i’ve been very lucky, i think. i also think that i met my match. while i lick my wounds (and i am recovering), he has moved on to the next conquest, no doubt convincing himself that this one will stick. it hurts to think of it still, but i remind myself of the information in the article and how many points resonated hugely. my father in law is, as i’ve recently discovered, is a classic narcissist. almost a year ago my husband (his son) and i got into a huge fight with him because we were fed up with trying to run his business and him not helping at all. in fact he would sabotage, loose files, the list goes on and on. well we quite the business, said our sorry’s, and now have different jobs different lives, etc. however he is still projecting his anger on us constantly telling us that we’re mad at him and being mean to him. this is an email my husband got this morning out of the blue titled angst: i’ve got time share folks telling me i owe them forever….yesterday hunley came over at 9am still drunk to accuse me of not paying him what i owed him….i’ve had my own family members scream at me over definitions of words or mistakes with credit cards….nana on my ass for not being able just to accept it all…all i have done is try to help and make peoples lives better. my reward being…”we don’t want you around”, and somehow….i’m the bad person for not liking it….my reward for trying to do right is severe headaches…insomnia….constant depression. nana on my ass….. then another one came a few minutes later tilted because: because i suppose…i’m just so easy to be mad at. how do we get him to stop. my hubby’s sister says we need to sit down with him, again, and apologize, particularly me. she says that my being quiet and not speaking with him at family get togethers is what’s making him mad. but when i do say stuff, he gets mad. so what do we need to do. help! there are thousands of children under 10 who will die from cancer fighting for their lives how do these kids have the strength and courage to fight to survive ? these kids may never get married live another year.. walk on a beach .. they’re not given a choice … you are !!! find the strength believe in yourself again … this is all just a test … a beautiful 27 year beautiful girl was killed in a car accident last week ..the car exploded and blew her face off.. she didn’t have a choice .how does a mother find the strength to wake up everyday burying her daughter? i was married to a narc for 12 years .over time we get to know the behavior and what’s about to happen . but we ignore it .. when a narc is nice and sweet we know something bad is about to happen because they are masters of manipulation. my mother was a narcissist and sadistic psychopath and i used to say she could convince god he was the devil and the devil he was god. it’s true that unless you have dealt with a person like this it is very difficult to understand just how skilled they are at manipulating, controlling and breaking people down. part of it is that decent people not only want to be kind and understanding and forgiving, but that they present such a different face to the world in general than they do to their victim of choice and that they often break people down over time and sort of train them into a state of self doubt and confusion. mommy dearest was excellent at victimizing people and them getting all sorts of extra mileage from them by playing at being their victim so she could get attention from everyone around her. trust me, you are hardly the only person to get sucked back in and then wonder how it happened. my mother was the most vile, violent, sadistic person i have ever encountered. she sexually abused my brother and a foster girl who lived with us and i was the torture victim while another adopted sister was treated as if she could do no wrong no matter what she did (pretty random choices that had nothing to do with her victims and everything to do with what served her manipulations). she was a sadistic animal. still, after i was well away from her, i confronted her about abusing my younger brother who unfortunately didn’t have it in him to withstand her abuse and had started to behave like her and somehow by the end of the phone call she was sobbing and had manipulated me into apologizing for making her feel bad. this is a woman who used to bite me till i bled and then cackle with glee. she used to like to twist my arm behind my back and stop just at the point of breaking them, but went a little too far once and did break them. when i was still in diapers, crawling around (cloth cause i’m old), she took my rubber pants off and held my wet butt onto the back of the wood stove until she scorched the name of the stove onto my butt and then carried on in front of everyone as if i was this difficult to deal with child who she just couldn’t keep under control and out of trouble, (and the list goes on and on) and not only didn’t shed a tear, but laughed hysterically through it all. after i hung up, it hit me what had happened and i just sat there in shock at myself for letting this sadistic piece of trash who had done horrific things to me from the time i was a baby manipulate me yet again. they play on your humanity without blinking an eye. i can still remember her face appearing over the crib and knowing by the look on her face whether i was going to be hurt or not. she acted so differently when other people were around that i actually experienced her as two different people at that age, sort of like a good twin, evil twin thing. of course i didn’t actually think of it that way because i was a baby. hi there dear, are you truly visiting thiss site on a regular basis, if so after that you will without doubt tke plesasant know how. i need to know what happened to the 23 years with this person who ultimately left me one morning and disappeared and won’t talk to me. narcissist borderline, i don’t know, and i guess doesn’t matter anymore. i’m now over 40. we met and started dating in our early hs years. she married and divorced twice, me once. she left both to monkey branch back to me, then abandoned quite cruelly twice. since those early years we talked about one day bring together and marrying. never happened, yet she married twice like i mentioned. this last time, i thought we are old now, but we finally got here. i didn’t think it was possible because i left her five years ago to be closer to my kids as i was missing good parts of their lives and guilty doing things for her daughter’s i wish i was doing for mine. she said she understand. it was a lie. she came back five years later, acted like “yea! we are finally here, forever, the kids are grown, nothing in the way!!!!” five months later abandoned me (again). i got one email and one brief phone call that in addition to “breaking up” part, and the “i can’t tell you why”, she say crazily hurtful things, like “i don’t believe in that fairytale love anymore (with a snicker, i could almost hear her so slightly smile). it was like ” aha! revenge!!! is mine!! for leaving me for your kids, how dare you, …….i know i said ‘it would be ok if you did’, but i say a lot of things at the moment i never mean”. “there will be no happy ending to our story.” ” it’s so over etc etc”. just the previous week she was talking forever, the whole bit. for the last 23 years she spouted these same lies”. all just “love faking” and illusion i guess. i am completely and unequivocally devastated. my (i thought our) cherished memories over 23years in an instant made worthless, and wasted. my dreams destroyed, my trust and faith gone. i have broken up with a narc a year and 2 months ago, well he broke up with me, in the beginning he was very nice and very into me, always showing me a good time and acting as if he was interested in me, he was extremely charming and flirtatious, then comes months later….the ego, everything was i am the best, no one is better than me, people are jealous of me, and he never told me any of his finances not even where he lived and worked, he would then tell me stories about his past but he was always the center of the story, then he would start telling sarcastic stories, making people look bad and making it seem as tho he was just kidding but i knew he was serious, he would criticize everything and make everything a debate and was never wrong, and would never apologize and if he did it was something like “im sorry i let you get me so upset that i reacted that way” then it got annoying to be around him bc he was not an emotional man at all, if i were crying it was never any empathy it was things said like”toughen up its not that serious” then he would always put his family on the pedestal but my family was beneath his, then he would start to say he was better than me, then he would compete with me, never ever criticize him bc if you did he would give you the cold shoulder for days, very selfish very stingy and very cheap, horrible gift giver and would ask you what you like just to go out of his way to get you something that you have no interest in, he would blame me for everything and say who i was , and would try to ridicule me and put me down, then he would say how what im doing is wrong but what he is doing is better bc he came from smart wiser parents, never opened doors for me, and would not have sex with me for weeks as if he were punishing me for not always being on call for him ..he was very needy and always wanted to feel like i should be glad he chose me, or he is a good man and plenty woman would want to be with a man like him and everything he did he wanted praise for the smallest thing, my situation is different bc i have a child with him and i promise you it used to be so hard to co parent bc he would make everything a debate..he works 2 jobs so he never has time, i do not talk to him at all unless its about our child, i broke free, i understood that people who act as tho they are better than others sometimes have the lowest self esteem ever, the best way to rid a narc is to ignore them they cant take it, they will soon become exhausted from you not giving into them and feeding their ego, i knew he was a liar and a cheater all along bc he would brag about high school trophies he won that i never ever saw he would act as tho he was academily creditable and didn’t even graduate high school, he hid that from me for a very long tim, he manipulates his own family to the point that to them they think its me bc they don’t know what goes on behind closed doors but it was him all along, trust me when i say they are the sickest people ever and can drain you dry if you let them, but i was digging and researching and something wasn’t right, he would always tell me how his mother and father worked two jobs and he never saw them and how they were extremely spoiled and i understand now that he lacks a mothers love and affection that’s why its so easy for him to be with girl after girl and that’s why he wants to be praised so much, he yearns for that bc he never had that as a child…i was happy when he left me and that’s sad to say but im so sorry guys you just don’t know the agony of dealing with a grown man who acts 5 years old, i say people come in your life for reasons and seasons without him i wouldn’t have my beautiful daughter but i also know now to be very careful of the outside bc looks can be deceiving he is nothing like i thought he was ..i was in love with who i thought he was …break free..set boundaries and let them know you are on to them and their games like i do, i don’t let him define me like he knows me better than me i don’t let him manipulate me or try to criticize me nor do i let him exploit me bc i do not talk to him at all threw texts or anything of that nature we have a set schedule for our daughter and that’s the only time we should talk…if he is with someone else i don’t care bc im free of him that’s all that matters but those new woman have no clue of what they are going threw bc narcs don’t think anything is wrong with them and when a person doesn’t think anything is wrong with them and feel as tho their actions aren’t wrong they will never change…i’m the happiest i have ever been in my life…. women narcissists are everywhere these days. am in involved in one and i don’t know how to get out. his always hurting by cheating on me with other women and finds away to blame everything on me. am always going out of my way to please him by making his fantasy come true somehow. just the other day i let him bring home a lady he used to date and watched him make love to her. he forced me to participate against my heart desire. it tore my heart out and though i tried to pretend am ok with it my heart way bleeding from inside the pain was too much. last month i had called it off but the pain of not being with him was too much to bear for i truely gave him all of my heart and soul. then he called to apologize and i forgave him then this happens. am still hurting and i wish love was something you can just open your heart and get it out…just like you i went back and am regretting and i don’t know how to get out. please read codependant no more. all will be explained. is anyone on this list actually making it work successfully with their narc partner? i am an optimist, and i’ve read only posts about getting out. what about getting smart. practicing self love. not expecting a close relationship with him, but staying for the sake of the small children. read dr. brown’s book called, “loving the self absorbed”. also, i think wendy bahari (sp?) is a social worker who specializes in treating couples where one person has narc. can anyone offer other advise? so am i plus my soon to be x did stray with other women and had an affair! our marriage was cold and soleless! he even said it was all my fault he strayed and al he wants is someone to love and look after him! no mention of me ! it was a one sided relationship with his wants and desires! this. article has hit the nail right on its head! awful marriage i felt trapped for 28 years! i was the passive woman! he made all the decisions and controlled me’ the affair is the straw which broke the camels back! it will never work and you will never be happy in this one sided relationship! i recently ended a relationship that was on again/ off again for three years. dss i consider myself a strong person and always have been when it came to dealing with difficult personalities. i knew within a month of meeting her something wasn’t quite right but it took a weekend trip away with her before it hit me full force what i was dealing with and to what extent her demons had control of her and to some extent me. i’m an older male, and somewhat old fashion and i thought i could make it work. cherish the good and work through the bad, even take steps to avoid the inevitable blowups and meltdowns that would happen ( actually almost like clockwork ) in my case i found she continued to push the boundaries further and further. oddly after a brief separation this past summer when i caught her with another guy by accident at a sporting event of all things i decided to give our being together one more chance. it wasn’t the first time we had split apart but this time seemed different. a lot of emotion on her part, a recognition she needed help and even talk ( never brought up by me) of going to seek professional help. but it never happened and inevitably she started to lie, deceive, and become defensive about her actions. by her own admission she realizes life is not going as she had hoped  and she is an intelligent and very attractive woman. but the fault always is with someone else. people messing with her is one of her more frequent used reasons for her life and career not progressing as it should. you can get smarter but the other person has to want to change. i never realized sites like this one existed until a few weeks ago and this is first time i have commented on any of the ones i have found. for me the big questions i am trying to answer are two. 1) after all the screaming, hateful e mails, voice mail messages, and texts i received when i first decided to end the relationship am i suddenly in the last three weeks getting messages from her she wants to be friends, to go out and have a good time like we once did with no pressure as she puts it brought on by our relationship. it makes absolutely no sense to me on any level. 2) why do i pity her, because i do. despite all that has happened, and i am minimizing a lot of what transpired over the past few years the overriding feeling i have for her is one of pity. a realization that although i can move past all of the damage done she never will be happy or whole. try sue johnson’s emotionally focused therapy, and read holding me tight with your partner. here it is, “your self esteem gets shot”, that’s the first hint in understanding that you are living with a person with npd (and believe me, i never previously imagined i was short on self esteem). how do you know if you have npd? you don’t even ask that question   it doesn’t even occur to you and you will aggressively dismiss it if someone suggests it to you. the first, most important characteristic of npd (imho), is the complete absence of empathy (please do not confuse with “sympathy”). the brief article above is very illuminating (a number of points resonate so clearly as to bring me to tears), but the conclusion is utterly pointless   the narcissist, by definition, doesn’t see the need to change anything other than the people around him/her. you can’t go to therapy with a narcissist unless you realize you are the one who is going there to get “fixed”. i am really hoping to read some positive feedback to your question, but as far as i’m concerned the only reason for staying in this relationship for the last ten years is to protect my children from her! once they are all safely in college my current expectation (promise to myself) is not only to leave her but to move to another continent. just six more years of this torture and i’ll be free… i’m currently in a relationship with a narcissist. our marriage is falling apart. when i met her, i was outgoing, i had a future in my career, and potential to do a lot of things. i’m saying i still don’t, but it’s going to take time to undo the years of ridicule and abuse she’s caused. if i played golf with friends, i didn’t want to spend time with my family, if i left shoes on the floor, i didn’t care about our kids’ safety, if i failed at a household task (redoing a bathroom, not changing a light) i was worthless. once i sprained my ankle playing basketball. i sent her a text with a picture of my swollen black and blue ankle and she replied, “you’re no fucking good.” as for finances, she doesn’t think twice about accruing debt because it satisfies her immediate need, whatever that may be. she doesn’t work, is a sahm and doesn’t do chores. when i get home it’s on me to clean the house, do the dishes and laundry. while she’s home she has to do crafts. she’s in school now and spends pretty much all day and night working on school work… basically, i’m not connected with her at all. we’re not friends and have nothing in common. and of course, she doesn’t think she’s a narcissist at all. she thinks it’s all my fault. once when there was lice in my kids’ school, she was washing all the clothes. well my work shirts are hung in a closet and when i said, “don’t worry about those,” she threw them outside and then in the basement. once she called the police on me for being in the same room as her. she had my car keys and wouldn’t give them to me… i don’t want to end my marriage, but i feel like i have to because she is such a threat to my livelihood. hi all, i have a girlfriend (mary for this post) who displays many of these characteristics highlighted in most of these posts. she can sometimes be as sweet as pie and then just switches to a person who says the most cruel and demeaning things, normally after she has had a few drinks. she is an extreme flirt with guys and always wants their attention, whether i’m there or not there and has even gone home with some when i was away, and insanely jealous of me. she has no problem about lying to me regarding any issues that she is not comfortable with. mary has no female friends and says she does not like female company. we live about 800 kms apart at the moment and she very seldom contacts me first unless she is feeling down. i travel as often as i can to see her and she does not seem to acknowledge or appreciate these visits unless we are ” wining and dining”. even then i am criticized for not choosing the right restaurant or weekend destination of which there has been many. i have tried everything i know to please her and always seem to be rewarded with terrible criticism. she always blames me for her wrong doings and i have been kind as i can possibly be to her. two of her family members have advised to run because this has happened to most of her boyfriends, but i always come back to try and “fix” the problem. fortunately mary seems to realize that she has done wrong but masks it by drinking and does it all again a week or two later. i have been in love with her from the moment we met a year ago but it has taken a huge toll on my self esteem and confidence. i think the problem is that mary may be a narcissist but i’m not sure. i would appreciate comments or questions to my situation and what can i try to do about it. hello. i don’t have an answer as to why we keep going back to the narcissist, i’ve been tossed aside many times, and them retrieved back. living with a narcissist is very damaging in many ways, and yet i have stayed. i’m working on that one myself. so many times i have been told how crazy i am, i must live on another planet, everything he does for me and how i ruin his life….and too much more. abuse is the only term to use. i’m only sharing because i do understand your plight and i’m truly sorry about that. don’t forget you are a good person !! i only wantes to say …you are not alone i am in the exact same situation……trapped. i don’t trust my husband’s judgement with my son, so i stay. i have to. i have been with my spouse for 17 years and i did not realize until a couple of months ago that my partner could possibly be narcissistic. he is always making everything about him and he is never wrong, the worst part is he does it to the kids as well and for them they think its just annoying, except for one day my oldest looked at me and said “i don’t know how you stay with him”(yes he is their father). but he has me to the point where i don’t work and when i did he would always complain i worked to much (i was the acting manager of a restaurant), or one time he accused me of liking one of my 16 year old employees; needless to say i quit there because i couldn’t handle the stress of dealing with him every time he would pick me up from work. i ended up losing my license because of not being able to pay a fine so that worked for him too because now i have no way to get around without him. i have left him twice in the past but each time i listen to his bull shit of things changing and the second time when he came and picked me up he looked at me and said” you couldn’t have picked someplace closer, i didn’t want to have to come all the way down here to get you (an hours drive at tops). but here’s where i was stupid. when i left him the first time and come back i didnt move right back in with him and when i left him i left my girls with him at my moms because i had wanted to try and get myself set up to support me and the girls (i was like 24 at the time), so when i came back i stayed at my moms and they moved into a trailer but he had talked me into giving him custody of the girls; so me being stupid i did and now i am afraid to leave because i will not leave my girls with him! i honestly dont know what to do, everyone else thinks it is so easy to just leave hime but its not. over the years i have let him ruin any chance of getting out on my own. i am in debt up to my ears, i dont drive, i got no income of my own. i am completely dependent and do not know how to think for myself anymore! i was in a relationship with a man i took at his word of being a changed person, although i knew his past! he had consistently cheated on his wife of 23 years. had a business that was in her name, but he ran. i knew he didn’t have a spotless reputation, but there was more! i went into 2 businesses with him and he has destroyed my credit. i had a house that was almost paid for and ended up with 2 second mortgages on homes i paid for. paid my credit cards off 3 times, and now find out he has our business account overdrawn once more hasn’t paid taxes and owes so many people money. he’s begging me to come back but after being at least away from the home we shared and constant contact though there is still some. i am thinking clearly for the first time in forever. i experienced the cheating chatting texting he denies the financial situations he put me in, the arguing in front of my children, being put on the back burner, interrogations, belittlement, silent treatment, loneliness over and over and over again. now he claims he has been saved and washed in the blood, and while i certainly hope he has, and can’t say i don’t care about him, and often times wonder if my decision is right when self doubt comes in (yes my counselor says i am a co dependant and he greatly reminds me of my mother growing up!) i realize i can’t help or take care of him! i’m finally letting the pieces fall where they may and pray for the best! follow your instincts not your heart!! i’ll say it again because i’ve gone over in my head over and over! and asked myself is the what i should do am i crazy??? follow your instincts your gut not your heart! your heart can be deceptive jeremiah 17:9! you can love someone without allowing them to hurt you and your family! be strong be courageous get out of bed even if you have to tell yourself each step to make it daily! take care of you. they will pretend to we refinanced my vehicle that was paid for when we got together 4 times and after the last time he bought his daughter a brand new car! they take care of the people they can use, need or impress! i am a narcissist, and it makes me sad that so much hate is directed towards us   i have yet to read words like “sick” or “deranged” being directed so cruelly at anyone who is a victim of any other mental illness. yes, i know we can cause a lot of pain and possibly even deadly harm to people, and i am not trying to minimise that or excuse the pain which i or any other narcissists have caused. i am just suggesting that it is only fair to everyone involved if it is acknowledged as a mental disorder, and treated with the same understanding with which any other disorder should be treated. that would be as freeing for the victims as it is to the narcissist. my narc left me but i am feeling alone and empty. i just don’t understand why i feel like this. i know he is unkind and will never change. but the power he has over me is staggering. how do you ever recover for this type of relationship? any advice or help you can give me….. they can be very persuading and manipulative… also can thru false words make you feel you must be pretty special for them to love you… because all they accept is perfection then when they have you back in their snare. ine wrong move on your part, they rip you to shreds verbally to you and to others. also strike up other relationships with no concern for you or your feelings. you are worth more than that! stockholm syndrome research that. we as victims are brainwashed by our abusers. we are trained to believe that the are the only person in the world that will ever love us. i know you posted this year’s ago but it’s never to late to learn how to stay away from an abuser. because u have emotional bound with the narc. u should see u tube and articles about narc. you are incorrect. that men are more narcissistic then women is a myth. in fact the numbers are just about even. the feminist movement pushes this myth and “white knights” as yourself perpetuate these myths. 1} why do they want to be friends? because if you are friends with them, it means they weren’t that bad and it was a normal relationship and breakup. it also means they’ve kept a door open and an option for when they are bored. 2} why do you pity her? why wouldn’t you? i pity my ex. i feel very sad to see the reality of his world. he lives in the most awful world imaginable   everybody is evil, everybody is beneath him, everybody is going to fuck him over sooner or later and he actively searches until he finds it. he accused me of so many awful things, thoughts, motivations etc. that it wasn’t until the end i realised he was talking about himself and if he honestly thought all humans were the were the way he though of me in the devaluing stages and not the idolising stages when i was the best woman who ever lived!!, then his view of humanity itself was skewed and he would never know a moments peace. he will always be looking for faults, imagined hurts etc and he will never know the love i felt for him. he is incapable. how can you not feel sorry for somebody like that? i also could push past all the damage done even a head injury!! but it wouldn’t make a difference and at this stage actually puts me in danger of dying. best to bite the bullet and move on. move through the pain. best wishes. this is hard to read. probably you should get professional help, because you mustn’t let this person run your life   maybe a therapist can help (), probably you’ll need a lawyer, maybe a social institution can give advise, preferably consult them all simultaneously. the best that i can do is to encourage you to separate, because that is what i did 2.5 months ago, it was very emotionally demanding and exhausting, but it was definitely worth it. i had my narcissistic ex girlfriend removed from my flat with help from the police, and it was the best that i could have done. don’t hold back, separate emotionally first and see them as the destroying people they are to you, don’t acknowledge their loveable side, as that is what they want. a narcissist will fight tooth and nails to get what he wants, they use you and abuse you, they turn the fact, they lie, they manipulate you and make you feel guilty and heartless and mean, but that’s just their strategy to turn you into their dead corpse that they feed off (sorry for the ugly words). i’d strongly advise you to gather information. ask a lawyer how to get your kids back (if the kids are on your side you have almost won already). ask the police what you can do to stop him ruining your existence. then, develop a battle plan, set a timeline and stick to it. and it’s very important that you don’t let the narcissist influence your decision or make you question yourself. expect him to fight tooth and nails, he will almost certainly get unfair, manipulating and destructive. prepare for that   change your passwords, especially that of your bank account, secure valuable stuff, inform your family and close friends, especially those that you know are on your side and that the narc may have contact to. set a date when you will confront the narc with your decision and then fight for your life, because that is what this is about. separate completely, block him from your mail account, block his phone number, never allow contact to him again, no matter what. if possible, convince the kids that they shall block him, too. and, most importantly: have no remorse, because it’s not you destroying his life (he will see that differently), but it’s him ruining yours and those of the kids. this will be fight of your life, but you have to fight it, and then you will be free again. get your life back. google a lawyer, now! all the best to you! neil jeff i caught up in the same kind of relationship. i am a successful business women, own property, self sufficient and make my own money. in fact i have way more than he probably ever have. he has a terrible case of narcissism its a disease. i dont know about you but for me i like to fix things. i thought i could fix him. her swooped me off my feet just as the article states. and i was wow ohh aww….and then whamo got hit with the t=real him. and it has been down hill ever since… very sad. . good!!!! thats whats making me leave my relationship.. otherwise i would continue to stay in the relationship sad to say but propbably true!! thank god 4 my daughter!!! great blog i no longer get the sun paper at work no way!!!!! it is your normal nature to want to help which is why we stay with people who are bad for us in the first place. don’t look back and my friend… consider yourself lucky you didn’t get married and have children. i did and i am trapped in hell. you will be better off without him. fight for everything you can… don’t feel bad about it and then remember something, this new woman will be desperate and sad also … just be happy!! you are finally free so true. yout hink they will change i guess or you think you can love them enough to make it better. god just save me from more such terrible pain i was going to encounter had i not took the right decision. i have been with a younger narcissistic guy (vulnerable type) for almost 1.2 years and it was such an intense flame of friendship between us. he was just going through breakup and was just behaving that he was the victim. we were friends and i just fell for the victim….lol. i have been abused physically once and verbally many times during this short period. it was like i am only responsible for his behavior since i choose to be friend with him. but thanks that the honeymoon period was not over till that time because may be i was a huge source of his narcissistic supply being a person of high social profile and my empathic nature fuelled it more. since i studied a lot about human relationship on internet, i could figure out the red flags in the relationship…..and before he went into discard phase of a true narcissist…..(he was in the devalue phase of his victim..i.e myself)…..suddenly without his least expectation i dumped him citing a false reason behind not able to sustain my relationship/friendship with him. it was such an amazing feeling to see his reaction even till today (i have been in nc for last 40 days)…..that it just let evaporated all my suffering like water vapors. yes it took a lot many days to have that courage to let go a person whom you consider so important in your life. but i feel the reward was much more in return. during those nc days i just pamper myself enough to regain my lost confidence and i stood before him again like i met him for the first time. but i do have a problem that he is my temporary coworker for another three years. i try to maintain least contact and talked only whenever necessary or important and then ignore him for the rest of the time. but he still try to woo me with his innocent look and good behavior like nothing happen. i know this is one of his trick to hoover back into my life. since i am determined not to let this person back in my life…..he may be angry and disappointed inside like a typical narcissist as i am constantly ignoring him. i am scared that whether he is planning a revenge? if so what i need to do…….any suggestion please???? right here is the perfect blog for anybody who wants to understand this topic. you know a whole lot its almost hard to argue with you (not that i actually would want to…haha). you certainly put a fresh spin on a topic which has been discussed for a long time. excellent stuff, just wonderful! thank you neil, it is the hardest thing to do isn’t it?! i honestly wish he would cheat or something just as awful so i would feel like i have a reason(i know i do), it’s just so damn hard when you still love them. i have been making a plan and when i have that plan all together i will see it through that i promise! i glad you were able to get away from your situation! i wish all the best as well! i have no idea but i’ve done the same thing several times over the past 9 yrs. we have 3 small children together. ..so sad, i’m getting ready too leave again. ..good luck! i feel your pain. .. i was with a narcisstic person couldnt take the behavior any longer didnt want to lose what i worked so hard for and most important losing myself and my place of residence we not living together in the same place mentally i was horrible monster he was i got out after 3 yrs ago but he still calls me but i dont give him reactions i dont allow him in my place dont go anywhere with him doing me was the best thing and calling him on his behavior and telling him he narcisstic and exposing him was the best thing once they are exposed they have no use for you i was only narcisstic supply however i did care about him alot but i had to make a choice him or me i chose me and so glad i did. i think i was a victim of a narcissist partner too! it has destroyed my family relationship with my children specially, my past work and now rolls into my friends relationship. my life was completely devastated. i spent almost 4 years with her  at first we decided to be like a friends with benefits relationship only, until love became deeper and deeper, that’s why i decided to be the 2nd one, my relationship with her was complicated ,until i found out that she was cheating and lying. i now realize that she has been cheating on me and manipulating me ever since. but because of love, i swallow everything, but this time with an agreement that no secrets and no lies anymore and being with other friends, were just friends only, in short am just for keeps. again, but because of love, i continue with it. unfortunately, i went back to the sick narcissistic person for a few months. <this is before i understood what a narcissistic was or that i was being so damaged). until i found out that she’s seeing this girl again. i am lost, forgot that were together with our friends and feel like i was punched in the face. soooo, devastated and scarred from this. she blamed me even it’s her fault, but the hurtful things that were said totally destroyed me. it’s scary, it’s lonely, and it’s shocking. i don’t know who i really am anymore. i lost everything especially my confidence.. … “why i went back to the freak narcissist to begin with until now, i still don’t have an answer yet, other than  “unless you are a victim” you will never know what hell i’ve been thru” until i figured i would give her space for awhile, totally changed my life completely. not sure how to move on, i can barely get out of bed   i cry every day. i know some trusted friends are getting tired of me dwelling but can’t tell to my family.. they all constantly tell me to move. i don’t understand why i am having such a hard time. i’ve had break up and i was separated once, but this has taken its toll on me. i feel i was beaten to a pulp mentally. she constantly would tell me i have no substance in my life. i walked on eggshells   he belittled me to no end. i wonder now, how long will the relationship last with her new girlfriend. this is going to be tough, especially we’re still on the same group of friends. just makes me so sick!!!! never had such a horrific heartbreak!! i don’t know how to tell this story or if someone even reads it. in august 2015 i broke up with my ex girlfriend because i couldn’t handle it anymore. i was walking on eggshells and it felt that i was telling my emotions to a brick wall. in the first year of our relationship everything went fine, but after that she changed. i thought i could get the sweet person back that she used to be, but after 2 years i quit… i can’t even type anymore. i am devastated that the person that i love is a narcist. i cannot believe she can’t be helped… she already moved on to another guy and that won’t last long either. all i can do is get over her, but it’s difficult. she destroys your self esteem, your worthyness and all she does is leaving you behind with all the fun things you did during your relationship. there is no help for those people… and that is a sad thing. good evening all! i am also in a relationship that turned out after a nice of showering me with affectnate of 7 months & just completely died & in a heavy seperation from my husband who mistreated me, lied & other stuff. i feel like i’m right back in almost the same spot. i can’t say my name & trying to book out fast. i’m helping him out but he won’t give me some kind of help back so that’s really unfair. he had said something that really set an alarm off in my head but his fam members will tell him if i try to book out while they are home so i am just trying to wait for that moment. it is not easy but i am trying to keep calm , with the saying from a friend , “i feel strong in my boots today & connected to the ground! i read about this behavior & it he definitely goes underneath with this. i will be back on later on how my path goes & wer all in this together, not easy but positive thoughts & keep saying, one day at a time & one football in front of another. keep your chin up! reading all of this blows my mind with how seemingly identical every story is. i have gone through a relationship like this too in the past and speaking as someone who did everything they could to change things, nothing worked, i don’t think it ever would have. when i met my ex he was so sweet and caring, i honestly thought it was love at first sight but after a while i started to notice patterns in his behavior. he was the only thing of importance, couldn’t take criticism well by any means, yet somehow he would try to turn things around in to how it was my fault. everything in the end was all my fault. on top of this he also suffered from depression, i’m not sure if the two really go together but he was seeing a therapist for his emotional problems and eventually dropped off because he thought she was a quack. i believe he couldn’t handle her correcting him either. he only had friends who were girls and would constantly flirt or hang out with them and some how would always drive a wedge in between us like there was a reason he didn’t want us to like each other. i always thought guys wanted you to like their friends, especially if it was a girl. i found out towards the end he was trash talking me to them and telling them how awful it was being with me, how he hated me and wished he’d never met me.. i went through his phone thinking maybe he was cheating with them, i know it’s wrong but i don’t know how much longer i would have believed his lies had i not, after seeing the things he said to them while he’s telling me everything is getting better.. when i met him i was confident and i believed in the good will of others, i’ve completely lost that now. the last few months we were together i kept trying to end it but every time i did he would make me feel so guilty about his life, his family, he had driven away most of his good influences. however, the cycle continued. the more i wised up the more he tried to turn things around and in the end, after a few weeks of fighting and things building and building, when i began questioning anything he began to shove me and go into a rage, sometimes fleeing the house saying he hated me, only to come back and apologize, but never taking blame for any of it. when i began questioning anything. he would tell me i was crazy, i was the one who had all the problems, i was too overbearing or my emotions were all over the place. he would have done anything and everything to prove he was not to blame, including acting like a total psycho.. i’m telling you, if you feel like you’re in a relationship like this, run. i wish i could have helped him more, believe me i do but at some point i had to put my health and well being first. even now i still have problems in my new relationship.. it’s like i was so used to being treated like a dog i expect it now. i’m dating a great guy who really is kind and sensitive and so understanding and i know he would never treat me badly, but i know he doesn’t understand why i immediately begin to apologize for things i don’t need to, why i flinch when we get into a little spat and he tries to hug me (me thinking he’s going to shove me out of his way to leave), why i toss in my sleep. my ex haunts my dreams, sometimes i hear a car drive by that sounds like his pulling in and it terrifies me because these people are right   it’s so easy to be re trapped by them, over and over again. have strength everyone. have the courage to stand for yourself, or you’ll fall for anything. guia, stay strong, as someone who has dealt with the same issues with her last relationship i can whole heartedly tell you i understand where you are right now. i know it seems nothing will get better, you gave this person your all   your honesty, your love, you showed them your heart and they lied, they betrayed you, and when you thought it could get better they made it worse. when i experienced this i too felt i couldn’t move on, i couldn’t stand on my own, i couldn’t possibly forget this person. i’m not saying you’ll ever forget as i still think of my ex often but you have to remember you were never to blame and there is little hope of ever changing their behavior. narcs often have very low opinions of themselves, they’re jealous of their partners whether it be they wish they had a better job like their significant other, the other persons good looks or charm and in turn they do everything they can to break that persons mold and bring them crashing down to the point they have all the control but you can’t let it ruin the beautiful person you still are inside   because you’re there. deep down you’re still in there and though it may take some digging to find that girl again when you do it will be gratifying because that girl will be changed yes, because of everything she endured there’s no way her demeanor couldn’t have changed a little   but she will be stronger, she will be wiser. all human beings or for that matter all animals are narcissits. to any individual there is nothing more important than itself. forgetting this fact has led to total confusion not only in narcissism but also in related concepts of psychopathy and sociopathy. the problem seems to go further than that. there are only theories in psychology and theories abound. ultimately, all that is written about narcissism boild down to mere words. this harsh conclusion is the result of spending about 2 months trying to find out what narcissism is. i shall be most grateful for anyone who can give me a definition of narcissism that has universal acceptance. its hard because l want out too mollie, thank you so much for replying to my message, its good and a big help to see people like you giving their time, reading blogs like this….right now am trying to move on,, almost 2 months now that i totally stop communicating with her..of course until now every time i saw her picture on fb..i still get hurt.. but am trying really to move on.. thanks again…. i feel this being with this type of person (narcissist) is a cruel and unusual punishment. no, all human beings are not narcissists. it’s not un fair to call them what they are: liars, con men/women, selfish, cruel individuals. they seem to really enjoy seeing others in pain. especially when it’s over them, although they pretend they don’t like to see you hurt. how can you say “you’re the love of my lilfe” one minute and the next call that person the most horrible names. i have dated one of these people for the past 11 years and it was nothing but heartbreak! i trusted them! how would you feel if you were told after 11 years (from your best friend) they had an incurable sexually transmitted disease they just didn’t think they needed to tell you about? is that fair? love is un conditional, kind, patient, gentle…the list goes on! these people have conditions that need to be met in order to pretend to love you. i understand they may have had some sort of trauma as a child, that’s fine…but get help! don’t damage others because you don’t feel worthy in the first place. or play games with their emotions and heart. watch the id channel. people get killed for less. normal people care about how they affect others. whether its negative or positive. these people only care, on the surface, how everyone (falsely) worships them. then say you’re the crazy one for pointing how cruel they really are! they can be mean and vicious. uncontrollable anger. break the law. the list goes on with the personality negatives. sorry, because you had a bad childhood and you don”t want to fix yourself, doesn’t give you the right to bash others so you feel better. anyone in these kinds of relationships, i feel for you. been there and just now getting out. hope to never see his lying face again…good riddance to bad rubbish! well unfortunately there are just too many narcissists women everywhere today that are drama queens as well which it is always about them which makes it very sickening when you really think about it. most of these women are so very selfish and greedy since it is always about money for them since they will only want the best of all and will never settle for less. quite a change in the women of today unfortunately compared to the women of years ago which most of them were the best compared to today. i’ve been with a textbook narc for 20+ years but didn’t know much about the term until i confided in her friend this week and it was suggested to me that i research it. so here i am. the problems are similar to many other posters here so i needn’t go through them. suffice to say that it saps your soul because its “all your fault”, even though you know its not really. my tank is empty. i am trapped in a temporary hell at the moment but now know what i have to do. i can’t do it yet because i know how she will screw up our 11 year old daughter (who she treats just the same   controlling, manipulative and critical). i am her only real ally and i doubt that i will be given custody because of the lies and manipulation she will use in any battle. i have to sit it out for a couple of years because i know our daughter will eventually make the decision for herself. its terribly sad but there’s nothing else i can do. now, however, i know i am not alone and that it really is not my fault. because you still have some inner work to do! because it is all part of their game; they are out to destroy you; to suck you dry; to destroy you. be strong & it is very common to fall prey again just dont ever do it again! they screw your brain & its like you are addicted to these low lifes. their attacks can be very stealthish. no contact is best, its hard sure but you never, never want to be tangled in their web again. set boundaries, nurture yourself, invite friends over, do it for you! stop doing things for others? have compassion for yourself for falling into their trap, educate yourself & order some books on it i read 2 books then at last i knew what to do. i knew what to expect, how he was going to behave. they are children in adults bodies who were abandonded when they were young. they are damaged & will try anything  anything to damage you too if they believe you wronged them. read ” splitting; protecting yourself while divorcing someone with borderline or narcissistic personality disorder” by bill eddy (attorney & mediator) & randi kreger. “disarming the narcissist” surviving & thriving with the self absorbed by wendy behary my son is in a relationship with a narc and i don’t know what to do. he recently had surgery and i took four days off work too look after him as she was too busy with work to look after him and my granddaughter. having spent the day driving up and down motorways picking him and my granddaughter up. we were all settled it was late and my granddaughter was ready for bed when she rang him and started haranguing him because she was on her own . she demanded that he return home with my granddaughter. unbelievably he agreed and asked me to take him home i refused so he asked me to take them to the train station, again i refused as i thought it was unfair on my granddaughter who is only two and it was late. i was made to feel like i was the bad person even though i had been running around after them and been giving them large sums of money because he has been on long term sick leave. she harangued him for hours on the phone as a consequence. i ended up taking him home the next day knowing that he wouldn’t be looked after and would end up running around after her and my granddaughter as he always does. i am at my wits end as if i say anything i am just the mother in law but i worry about him and my granddaughter living in this situation. any suggestions? i have been with my spouse for 25yrs .i just recently learnt abt narcissism. omg. my spouse fits almost all the traits. i have tried to leave so many times but i am trapped because of my teenage son. because during the love bombing you thought she was your soulmate,you have seen her almost perfect during the evaluation stage thats why you keep on coming back,you are hoping things will become better,just follow no contact and pray. i have lived with a vulnerable narcissist for 23 years. while he has alienated everyone else in his life, he puts me on a pedestal all the time. every time i have tried to leave, he has cried and convinced me to stay by telling me how much he loves me and that the kids want me to stay. i know i have co dependency issues, which just makes things worse. i also had an affair, and that went over well. it was not the right thing to do, i know, but i literally feel like his possession. he says he does things to make me happy, but they are seldom things i actually want. i need/want to leave, but he keeps telling me he cannot live without me, playing on my guilt. i have no idea what to do. yes narcissist are charming people it is very hard discarding them and when they want you back they have new methods i have married a man that has two children with his ex wife. i came into the picture well after the divorce. i have come to realize that the ex  wife has narcissistic personality. anything we do, doesn’t matter what, she has some comment or excuse or its someone else’s fault. we ignore lots of things she says to us. it never gets better. she blows up in front of the boys when we meet to pick them up. it has been two years since i met my husband and she just started blaming me for everything that happens or doesn’t go her way. i have never dealt with someone like this in my whole life. it is so ridiculous and such a waste of energy and emotions. i don’t understand why she does such awful things and makes life so difficult. i want to get along with her, but it is very hard to. what are some things to do or say to try and make things better? my narc just ended our 7 year relationship a few days ago.to say the least the last 2 years were a living hell to much of the time.maybe we feel why would want or entertain even on going back is the old saying you always want what you can’t have.because after the love bombing they keep you at arms length a lot of the time. they seem normal and say love you or even act like they do,so we are always trying to achieve the unachievable i guess. i know your pain,my narc just dumped me after 7 years i think she had been cheating on me and probably has the new guy in my chair next to her as we speak.we had matching lazyboy chairs next to each other in the lr.i believe she has cheated several times red flags gut feelings she always just says no your crazy,your overthinking.sometimes it’s as if she is another person taking over her body.i first met her after i lost my girlfriend of 15 years passed away i went for a hike with a new group i joined and met her and we car pooled to the hike an 1 1/2 away i guess.something it me deep inside almost like love at first site we had been together ever since 7 years.the early years she was renting a house and we talked about building a new house she has money,so she had a new house built and we both picked out all the decorations and all the furniture and all that for months.it was great people that met us always would say we are the perfect couple so happy and made for each other.she use to give me cards saying i was the love of her life.i felt the same way.also cards saying it was once in a lifetime meeting and we were soulmates.i felt the same way,it was a very strange meeting it was halloween and i could not stay in the house and listen to the kids come and i could not answer the door because it just made me think of the kids me and my girlfriend had brought up since birth,so i went on the hike my very first one with the group.we were suppose to me everybody at some parking lot to talk about the hike before we would all leave.i got there and she was there with another guy so i got out and they said they were with the group and would i want to drive with her it was her car.during the hike and even before i felt this charge inside me chemistry maybe love at first site a powerful feeling hit me.i was not looking for anyone but this feeling could not be denied.the 1st 5 years were great except for several times she would seem to be someone else and it was scary,but i am a very loving person so i gave her lots of attention care interest love .she had never had this kind oif love she was just about to end her divorce she was in for 30 years.long story short the 1st 5 were great 24 seven we were together pretty much traveling across country out of the country,talks at 3 am if we couldnt sleep on the patio laughing until we cried we could pretty much read each others mind’s.i had to move out after 5 years due to her getting alimony and they passed a law saying if you collect alimony you cannot have anyone live with you.since then she has changed we could only see each other on the weekends and when we traveled.it was a lot of strain on me being away from the woman i loved dearly.it seemed like it didnt bother her at all,which bothered me.then red flags started occuring that seemed to point to betrayals and cheating.she always say i didn’t say that i didn’t do that when i would tell her instances of her doings that’s what she would always say,with a crazy look in her face.,very scary.anyway i have been a wreck things would be out of place or something showing that it looked like someone else was there during the week when i was not.she always denied.it never made sense.until i had to do something so i put my pillows that i only use in the basket no one should be touching them except me then the weekend came and the pillows seemed different like someone was using them,not me.only thing she came in the room right after me and caught me like she was reading my mind and with this look like a demon said what are you doing .i think she installed cameras in the rooms she has had this computer guy over there like 7 times and she said he never fixed the computer then she said she wanted to meet him after this class he was doing and said she needed 3 hours and she texts him things to do for her like he is her errand boy or something.anyway after she caught me and most likely knew and was waiting for this all week by the way she had been acting all week she said get out and wanted my garage dooor opener and i said this is for good and she said see you get out or something,very scary looking.i know im rambling ,because as i write i am reliving just this last part i know you guys understand. he is the narcissist. if you feel guilt, you are not the narc. he is using guilt to manipulate you. as a man, i’m sorry to say, but my guess is his feelings are being met where he is. he is free to see other women and lives with his mother, so all his domestic needs are met. he likely places blame on you when meeting with other women close to his home and makes it your fault that he is lonely. i am so sorry to hear of your situation, i’m a christian as well, but have been through a lot in life, bad choices, good choices, married to a narcissist and raising a child together. i understand how they think, manipulate, lie and blame all too well. i wish i didn’t. i pray the lord guides you to a decision that will result in peace. do not feel guilty about divorcing this man. he is not being faithful if he’s not willing to go to the ends of the earth to be with the person he agreed to “lay his life down for” and you should not continue suffering for someone who is not willing to do the same. much love. so here i am…broken…crying…devastated…all over a relationship that lasted about 3 months. why did we break up you ask, well…secrets don’t stay hidden forever and when i find something out and confront them (in a calm way at first) i’m told, “you don’t know what you’re talking about”, “you see what you want to see”, blah blah blah…so i shut down emotionally and become cold. with a little bit of help from jd, i got the courage to dig deeper and not let it go until i was given an appropriate answer….boom….relationship done (” i’m stupid”, “shut up, you don’t know what you’re talking about”)….so why am i the one apologizing for my actions and not them!!! why am i practically begging for them to forgive me and take me back!!! after reading some of these stories i firmly believe this person to be a narcissist…should have known when they stated they would choose a an object (hobby item) over me….yet here i am… still crying still sad still begging on 2nd of january i will be married 8 years and together for 14 years.. i never knew what a narc was or that there is such a thing only until about two months ago..for years now even still today as i sit here typing this i still tend to wonder if i’m not going crazy and if the problem isn’t me..i only feel sure of myself as i read up on this that i’m not..my first thought was bipolar i researched and researched only to again look myself in the mirror and wonder what is wrong with me? have i done so many bad things to people in my life that this was just everything coming back to me is this what i deserve..i stop and think but what was it that i’ve done so wrong and so bad to others, was i really that awful and that bad, just cant be can it? or was i just meant to live this unhappy life everyday. i feel as if i don’t know myself anymore i’ve lost interest in everything i have a hard time being creative which always just came so naturally instead i feel down,sad,depressed. i find it hard to actually just laugh and be happy i feel like i want to just run away far away but i have to keep it together for my two girls i’m in this house day in day out the only time i go out is when my daughter goes or comes from school..he obviously is out and about having a whale of a time with friends or attending parties alone of people who hates me, they can’t stand me i’m this terrible wife they don’t get why his with me oh yes the children of course whom he pays no attention to unless someones here to see him. which makes me look more like the wife from hell i’ve asked him so many times i have lost count why is it that he feels he has to belittle and humiliate me when ever there’s people around does he want people to think he dragged me out of the garbage but as always he was just putting me back into my place as i was out of line or behavior which i dumb me thought was normal i always seem to get it wrong i have two friends that come and visit sometimes which really helps although he hates them especially my one friend he has never given me a reason as why only the fact that she cant be trusted and that she is going to ruin our lives…so i have to wonder could it be because he thinks she knows something or is he actually in love with her cause why else would you have this burning hate towards someone who has never done you wrong..see i dont know people from this town although i have lived here for 7 years now, we’ve been friends now for two years. he checks up on me during the day he would pop in unexpectedly trying to catch me cheating on him.he has even gone so far as thinking that my best friend and i might get it on or at least we would have if we met earlier when we were younger so if i;m not having sex with another guy i must be having sex with her or we surely must be bad mouthing him all the time. in the beginning he thought we were using drugs together..he actually as i left to get us some juice told her the one day that he’s not stupid he knows why else would we have sunglasses on,(on a hot summer’s day). when she asked him what are you on about the sun is shinning in our eyes he said i know her she can be a bad influence…behind my back to my friend really…he knows her longer than i do from the cricket club i;m planning on leaving early next year or i hope to.i’ve decided today that enough is enough when he was yelling and screaming calling me names in the middle of the street ( not the first time )because i didn’t do as he said and wait with my baby in the burning sun without a bottle for him to bring me the house keys after i took my daughter to a friends birthday party and he came to fetch the key because he forgot his cricket shoes at home. believe me it never gets better it only gets worse if i think about it now..its draining i feel like a empty shell of who i use to be michelle, you just gave me the strength to end it. pray for me too please james. i am a christian married to someone i suspect is a narcissist. i feel like i have failed god but also feel like i just can’t any more i have just walked away from 4 yrs with a cross between a grandiose & vulnerable narcissistic relationship. i believe the persons father was abusive, narcissistic & their mother smothering   helicopter parent. i think i’m codependent. in the beginning i was very independent, outgoing, confident, educated with a business. i’m a very caring person & empathetic which relates to my career. this was very appealing to this person. he was funny, life of the party, attention seeking, but also required nurturing. he was loving, affectionate, very sexual and demanded it. high maintenance. i started to believe he may be having an affair but could not prove it. he had a prior history of infidelity which also affected his overall view about trust. he had issues about being rejected by females to what he believed were more desirable males. and yes he was an attractive man with a good body due to his work. he was vain but didn’t portray this in the way he dressed, spoke or carried himself. in ways this person was very giving. after 4 yrs i had no self esteem or confidence, doubt my independence skills and nearly lost my business due to my prior partners control, jealousy & downright nastiness towards me at times and sucking my finances dry. this person also earned at times triple my income. he definitely moved through the 3 phases of behaviour. loving me, or so he said, then verbally & emotionally abusing me if i disagreed with him or said anything about his children (one adult child has similar traits) but then he told lies about mine to others behind my back. he put everyone down; his family, friends & was very derogatory towards one young adult child. i was given the cold shoulder & refused to contact me for up to a week after an argument he started, then dropped to the ‘i’m sorry i was wrong’ line. he was nasty to other people stating he would ‘challenge anyone to an iq test’ thinking he was superior to all and me. he threw tantrums if he didn’t get his own way. he belittled and embarrassed me subtlely, was quick to pick my faults, the clothing i wore, even my sentence and word structures. but refused to believe he had his own faults. his word and opinion was right & mine didn’t count. he showed no empathy initially after upsetting me. i received no support unless it was about him so i gave up asking and then i was keeping secrets. i have been slowly isolated from my own home (i own, he rents his own place), my children, family and friends. he had a prior history of addictive drug abuse but kicked habit. still has strong views and an advocate for drug use (not alcohol). this person is very jealous constantly accusing me of infidelity (which never happened), and this impacted on my business and also my self esteem. he will admit he has jealousy, self estee, issues and is abusive towards me but can’t stop himself. he states his head gets thoughts and he then can’t stop those thoughts from being real. reality vs fantasy. on top of this his eldest child started abusing me also   family trait. i told myself i was happy, and there periods of happiness to be destroyed by the same abuse. i believe he has other mental health issues not just narcism. overall i was lonely like many others. i have recently left, cutting facebook contact   unfriended, but still get a mixture of abuse and sorry’s within an hour of texting me. i could write so much more… i found the strength to walk away after being told ‘i can’t be with a person like you’, some wonderful friends & family (those that i told). like many of you, i still think, things can be better next time but i know after previously walking away, nothing will change. abuse is not acceptable   a person doesn’t always show physical scars of abuse & suffers in silence. i will no longer be a victim. so, men & women, no one deserves to be treated less than another. relationships should be about companionship not dictatorship. is the best resource guide i’ve read about narcissist abuse, and the dynamic. incredibly empowering. generally there is an attraction between co dependents and narccissts, and both are filling eachothers ‘need’ and the result is toxic. the more narcissistic an indvidual is, the less likely they’ll ever ‘change’ however, co dependents tend to be highly empathetic, so if can find enough empathy for self and the narcissist, it is a path to recovery. i’d also highly reccomend learning about the three principles discovered by sydney banks   mind + thought + consciousness = reality check out teal swan why you can’t leave. i too am a victim but also like to say overcoming my addictions of self sabatoging behavior. this video teal swan opened my eyes to the addictive cycle i was in for many years. if you like it. i suggest learning from her, there are a ton of her videos on youtube. once you can get clarity on the inner workings it’ll help with your healing. i suggest finding a really good therapist this stuff goes so deep and we are often blind to what is happening. working with a professional will help. love to you dear sister on your journey to reclaiming your truth. erykah lumiere thats so true you feel responsible its asif the narsistic person mentally hipnotise you that you need to do anything regardless of what will the consequences be. i was in such a marriage for 4,5 years. im broken my soul is tourn i was divorced 26 aug 2016 and he left me 3 times and the 3rd time i said its done. how do one pic up the pieces how do you come over your fears and how can you make a new relationship work without hurting the other person that try helping you and leave the ghosts of that nightmare. than one has gave your life to that one person that has absolutely crush your whole self i had the same question. the answer is simple, one word even. manipulative. they were manipulative, i became manipulated into believing,……. i hope all is better now. i can’t imagine things are better unless you were able to actually cute free from your narc. i have been with mine for 5 years and i am desperately trying to get out. if you were able to get out please share how you were able to do it. blestmotherof3 my question, how do you get them to leave you? blestmotherof how do you leave??? what do i do and how do i do it? he frightens me. learned helplessness & codependency ; possibly cognitive dissonance. also, look back to your childhood with mental health professional who is well versed in narcissistic personality & victimology of narcissists’ partners. this is exactly what i am currently experiencing. i am in a “situation” with someone at the moment. i have tried to deal with the behavior but it has linked itself to everything we do. she is so selfish at times and i always ask myself why i am still around when walking away is so much easier but then i think about how i would feel if someone just walked away from me. i look at the way she acts and have tried to ask questions to gauge her behavior. she tells me she is fine but then all i ever hear is how people have done her wrong and she felt ignored as a child. she is very manipulative and self centered. she even talks endlessly about what she deserves and when her fortune will come. i see nothing wrong with optimism but when does it jump from optimism to just plain narcissistic tendencies. she does what she knows she can to get me to do everything her way despite my expressed concerns for myself and my feelings. ultimately i am concerned that my impulse to leave is going to cause some sort of an emotional storm. i’m wondering if it is a narcassist behavior that has a man preying on weak. vulnerable people who are addicted to drugs and they have chatted him for sex but he won’t let go he is made himself very needed by paying for her last two rental units and paying all kinds of money for her because he thinks that she’s telling him the truth she said she’s not pregnant there’s only a 1% chance that she has a pregnancy 99% chance it’s a tumor in her stomach i mean come on if you’re pregnant or you’re not beside she was in the neonatal section of the hospital he 68 years old she’s 34 he can’t even go into the apartment in which he pays for because she says her ex will take her children away even though she doesn’t have them but he’ll keep them away longer without having visitation he’s controlling her with money and it’s actually very disgusting because he prays on weak minded people that have issues that are very very vulnerable he should be ashamed of himself he is a predator he’s a control freak and when you tell him to go away and leave you alone and don’t ever call you again he does not listen to that request he continues to insert himself in your life no matter what you can tell him 100 times leave me alone i hate you and i’ll still come back for more he’ll fix the car he’ll pay for her methadone clinic he’ll pay for this or that her read her food her everything he’s praying on this young girl and i feel bad for her and he claims that she got her visitation taken because somebody said she was hanging out with him well we both know diapers does not take visitation away based on hearsay they have to have good information that is actually true to back up the issue that the children are not safe with the mother she’s also pregnant as i said only 1% though what a joke . i went through this for years with him he would not leave me alone now he’s finally felt some found somebody else but i feel so bad for her because she’s the age of my daughter and it’s disgusting how he’s taking a vantage of somebody who is such in such a low point in their life that they are excepting his help because it’s easier than paying the bills and gives her more money to use drugs he’s in a enabler and knows that if she wasn’t messed up she would not even want anything to do with him he claims they met at the restaurant she works there and they started dating i know better he pays escorts for sex this beautiful young girl young enough to be his grandchild would not say hey let’s meet after my job shift and have sex cause you’re just so handsome he looks like herman munster tell me is he a narcissist aniken i know he’s a control freak but shouldn’t he be the one that’s held responsible to a degree the same here. i kept trying to fix it and thinking i could get them to see they aint treat me right but i learned narcissist feel like you are not worthy enough to tell them how they are acting. to a narcissist they are always right and you are always wrong. you are nobody without them so it is a blessing to be with them. my mother is s narcissist and growing up i was codependent on her. i didnt decided to leave my mother and separate from husband. they both have destroyed my life with their narcissism. my life is beyond repair. i can only manage the damage and not let them add to it. i am starting over, new everything, even career. they killed my passion to work with the mentally challened. they got me in serious debt from constantly spending my money while keeping theirs. they controlled me and my money. it is going to take 10 years to get myself and life back to the way it was when i didnt have them in my life. my narcissist husband turned my daughter against me. he has humiliated me and denied me in front of his friends and work staff. he convinced me to give up most of my money to his family house saying it was ours. after i find out that the house is only in his and his mothers name. he made sure he paid off his credit card bills while i paid for our childs education, his dental work and om everything else so i couldnt pay off my education loan. he controlls the money..etc. i have asked for a separation and moved to another part of the house. to retiliate when i must speak about business or our child he stonewalls. i plan on walking away from it all and having my own place and not looking back. it will be a big loss, only taking a tv and laptop with me but i just want the narcissist abuse behind me. i spent 17 years with his condescending remarks daily, physical abuse and all different kind of mental and emotional. it got so bad that i almost had a heart attack twice. two doctors asked me in my face was i being abused cause they suspect that i am. my cluster migrains returned worse which is a red flag that i am under alot of stress. i’d second this comment. we had relationship problems mainly with the red flags i was seeing. my observations of her behavior led me to believe she was cheating. when i finally reached my limit i confronted her only to have her deny deny and explanations rendered that didn’t ad up. she ultimately lead me to believe i was crazy and put me on a massive guilt trip for having called her on my suspicions. in all of this she made it about her putting on a big show about how much pain she was in due to me accusing her of cheating. it was really pretty weird cause if you think about it, if your partner accuses you of cheating, and you are not, and they are clearly certain that you are… based on their obvious mental state…. would you not seek to clarify why they feel the way they do, to understand, to address their hurt and concerns and would you not focus on them and assuaging their fears? instead she made it all about her, with a total inability to be compassionate and put herself in my shoes, to share my feelings and my hurt. i went on this torrential reading spree devouring every self help book i could get to try to understand and find center, regain my reason and wait for it??? try to fix the situation. finally settling on a method “his needs her needs” i think it was. i was excited by the prospect of us working through the methods together to improve our relationship!!! i left the book on the counter and told her i thought it looked good and that i’d like to go through it together with her. she showed little interest. pressed on it later she claimed to have read the book but you wouldn’t know it cause she wasn’t displaying the behaviors! so my point is that she absolutely wouldn’t overanalyze anything and didn’t seem to even perceive there to be a problem. now to address what another said earlier, being in this relationship is a very lonely situation. even when i’m with her i feel lonely. there doesn’t seem to be any “there~there”! she tells me she loves me in monotone with no visible emotion and yet the elephant in the room is her complete emotional unavailability! it’s like it’s impossible to have emotional intimacy so i feel constantly insecure. and since she lies and i’ve caught her you reach a point oh “how do you trust?” i have to question everything that comes out of her mouth and it’s exhausting. and never will she take responsibility for errors and mistakes on her part… just turns it around, makes herself the victim and i end up feeling like i’m the bad one. did i mention the passive aggession and the silent treatment? the punishment? and the kicker is that she’s consistently not been there for me in times of need be it an accident situation or personal problems work etc and does not compliment my capabilities or celebrate my accomplishments. it’s all about her all the time and she’s always working an “agenda” one way or the other. half truths.. manipulations… guilt trips.. silent treatment… casual criticisms… nothing i ever do seems to be right and certainly my efforts aren’t complimented or appreciated. any decision i make she’ll second guess it or later claim i made a bad decision. gaslighting even.. claiming things happened such and such a way when i know for fact they did not and it’s documented in writing how it went so….. magical thinking? deception? acts different at home and out in the world… constantly worried about her image. in case of confusion about my post above. i end up questioning in my own mind everything she says, not actually physically questioning her cause that would create a war zone here. ultimately, it’s a very disheartening existence. you end up losing your self worth, doubting your own judgement(afraid to make a decision about anything cause they’ve so methodically broken you down and made you question yourself repeatedly) and your self esteem is wrecked. you end up feeling like an object or an accessory in their life and if your inclined to fix it you’ll be fixing it forever to no avail and further down the hole you’ll go in the process…. it’s not all you. you tried to establish effective communication. that is you working towards positive outcomes. there’s two people( sometimes only one if you’re partners a narc cause they aren’t really a person lacking emotions or depth or feeling at all so?) in a relationship. relationships are hard and require work. you were trying to do the work and it sounds like you were being undermined. your partner had an agenda. you said you didn’t meet his expectations because you didn’t understand. yet you say if you asked questions you’d be cut off etc… that is not healthy behavior. how could a reasonable person understand if ridiculed and cut off when seeking clarity? it’s better to realize you would never have met his expectations and if you aced his test he would just fail to acknowledge that and move the bar further/higher! face it…. it sounds like that’s what you were dealing with. misery no end if you ask me, self doubt, frustration, insecurity and on and on. he wanted you to make the decision for him cause he doesn’t have the balls to do it himself. just let him go. love yourself a little…start right now today. you sound like a good hearted person. obviously i don’t know your situation so not sure the significance of the “emotional storm” you refer to. but i think you have to turn some of that kindness around and focus it on yourself. what will the ultimate damage be to you mentally and emotionally if you continue? people talk about being destroyed and having wasted their lives trying to fix their “situations” when it was actually always one sided so you can’t fix that. only make yourself insane trying. will you then be discarded as happens to so many? left kicked to the curb really emotionally wrecked because your heart was in it and theirs wasn’t/never was? everyone’s situation is different but… do you see a positive outcome? are you feeling a healthy relationship? warmth? caring? compassion? sharing? consideration? empathy? are you sensing an interest in you being happy and your needs cherished and fulfilled? do the both of you care at least as much about the other as you do about yourselves? sounds like this last one could trip you up even if they’re faking the rest…. a big consequence of settling for this type of partner is that you’ll live a life of loneliness and lack of emotional support. in all seriousness, you might be better off with a mannequin (plastic person), as your partner would indeed be there in body only and emotionally unavailable true but you wouldn’t expect your mannequin to have thoughts or emotions and the mannequin certainly wouldn’t do you wrong in the myriad of other ways from deception to manipulation to plain dumping you with zero compassion or remorse….. i feel your pain and i know your plight. i really like that mannequin reference! i mean, is a narcissist not simply a live mannequin? think about it. 🙁 for me when i wanted him back, i did not have the understanding, just such confusing. i really thought he had a hard time with getting close to me and needed time alone, even tho i was so very confused how he left without nay closure for me. it’s been 6 months now, about the 5 month mark after reading aboput this personality d/o, it became so clear. bet he calls some day.i read time is different for them, 5 years can be like 5 week for them. if i saw him i would only want to observe him like a character study. why take the chance? my son went through that kind of relationship. has not gone back but never opened him to anyone else. she is still telling him that he will never be loss from her. kids lives are wrecked. the gril is with the so called mother and will needs big time healing at some point in her life. i feel for you and do hope your relationship will be healthy and strong ok i am at work in tears( in my mind) right now and know my journey home will lethem out. i am relating to being in this (i call) addictive obbession to a narcissistic person. i was in my relationship for 7 years and recently relocated to another town to call myself getting away from this physical/mental abussive person that never thought of me as equal or their better half until they needed me to be. while reading these forums, i can relate to them all. i even got to a point to fanatise of us being happy together when the reality hit him that he loss on something good. all this was because he jumped right into a relationship the day i left. and had pulled my family into meeting this other woman that has no idea of what he is capable of, yet. i am regaining myself back one day at a time. it’s called teams bonding. omg! this is ..so true! you nailed it!! i was left by a narc and the sad thing is i tried to leave him 3 times prior to me being dumped. i know the relationship is doomed but i’m still hurt and angry. i felt so lonely at the time and it was always on and off three times during our relationship. just out of the blue he told me not to call him again. i know it won’t work so why am i so gutted? i’m angry, sad and disillusioned about men in general. i have lost my trust. it’s a blessing this has happened but i’m so devastated and i don’t know why? because you remember the fantastic person you fell in love with and hope they will be that person again. you think that special and magical person is their true self and that you can help them get back to that person if you love them hard enough. you are so torn down from being slammed off the pedi stool they put you on, that your head is still spinning and it’s unreal to try to grasp the concept that their behavior is their true nature. if you have children with them and they happen to be wonderful parents you question whether you are the reason for the infidelity or cutting remarks that destroy your soul. after all… they love the kids unconditionally so they are capable of love.. obviously i’m in the beginning stages of moving to divorce from my serial cheater narcissistic husband. hi, i need some advice please..i have no idea i am the narc or my spouse.. i am going to be honest here. in 2013 i physically hit my spouse due to a frustrating moment.it was a buold up of her over a space of 3 years always picking on my parents and could not take the abuse amd i finally caved and did the unimaginable..i am not condoning my poor behaviour..it was atrocious and i hate myself for it.if you ask anyone who i grew up with, this is totally out of character for me. my spouse always has to win an argument amd even if i tell her or show her how wrong she is, she always rretaliates and says its my fault.. she never has any flaws or admits any wrong on her part..even if she does, its always a but it was my fault in some way..the thing is that i mow feel that i am the narc because of the physical abuse incident which she always brings up in our arguments.she now always tells me how i am not a man. as long as i agree with her, everything is ok.but the moment i have my own opinion, she shuts it doen by telling me how my opinion will lead to trouble and makes me feel my opinion or advice is weak. i actually dont know what to do b3cause she is never wrong amd because of the physical abuse incudent, i now feel that i am in the wrong and i am the narc. i have done everything to make her, her sister and mothers life easy, but she has made sure that i view my parents negatively.if i stand up for them, she puts me down and dare i say anytning against her mother and sister.thats the wrath coming down on me. yet i am the one who looked after them..she also throws that back at me..that i didnt do it out of the kindness of my heart. i actually dont know what to do or if i am wrong or right. nothing i say aggects her..i always try and tell her how i feel but all i get is a push back that its my fault that i geel that way amd its not hers..even when i tell her it is her.. is anyone still live on here. i realy need some advice im so broken it is hell.. 7 yrs and now he’s has found his target a younger woman! i just want to say you all are dealing with the new generation of crazies. with our technology and speed of within our grasp has made alot more narcissist. you all might want to also read up on sociopaths and psychopaths. i believe most if not all your partners and friends and family also will fit that profile. as to be labeled narcissistic sociopath/ psychopath/ also known as borderline personality. i have unfortunately had my share of non emotional rollercoaster psychos but i new and read up as to actually reprogram my thinking and get out before to late being i have almost 20 years in working in the psychiatric field. but never actually thought i date one nor the less two. very hard to get rid of they will torture and stalk and harass you until they replace you . but be ready because the outcome will be reversed, because u will be labeled as the crazy one and cops will believe the real crazy one over you. long process but well worth your sanity and life. leave/, leave / far away cut all ties and run as to never look back. they will destroy everthing about you and that you love. they heartless unemotional detached and have no soul..they can be nice until they decide to pull the carpet right under u as a since of control. please i ask of you no matter how many years invested on a crazy person, get out live breath once again. nothing will ever control you and u will be stronger then ever for you survived a life of torture in the chains of a narssistic stranger/ psychopath or sociopath. .. bravo you did the right smart move. relocated. proud of you. dont look back good luck reading your story brought back so many memories. my story is different but the same. when i couldnt walk the line anymore and i started “unplugging” the people who were slowly killing me i had no clue what i had just done…. 15 yrs later “ life is good” i didnt understand how broken i had become . i finally reached a point that something was wrong with me… i was going crazy… i was almost convienced i was manic ! so i found a phycologist. best thing i could have done… it took about 6/8 trips before i actually opened up. i would make every excuse to myself not too, but i went. i started to understand why i couldnt breathe , i was a time bomb! i was with my ex for 27 yrs. we have 3 kids and i worked and later purchased family bussiness for 30 yrs. it took 3 yrs for me too either walk away from or loose everything i had worked so hard to hold onto. my husband was in and out of jail because of substance abuse…. leaving me to work and raise our children. i never really bad mouthed their father, but you can bet he did me to them… after 20yrs working with parents i couldnt do it anymore. i bought the business… on the outs with my family my ex strolls right in to my business and starts stealing, ect… i kick him out and he turns to meth… i did everything i could think of , except walk away, to keep things in “control”. i sent one son to california and one to florida to school so their father couldnt mess with their mind. my youngest was hurt the worst…she had a part time mother and a verbally abusive father her senior year. she started down her fathers path and i had to let her go. the only chance we had was me getting strong and educated… i had to help myself first… broke my heart! my boys were screwing up and again i was supporting. i had to cut them off…. omg!!!! kill me now i new in my heart i would be here when the time was right but for now i was done helping them ruin their lives. i was alone and it took everything in my body and sole not to go back to what i knew. i had to change this cycle…. 5 yrs has gone by…. my parents become ill and my sister comes to help… within a year both pass and my sister is trustee of their large estate…. the next 5 yrs brought me to my knees. i had lost everything and homeless, no job, no vehichle and 2 friends who nursed me back to life… i know your suffering and your fear! i know faith and i know for me god took care of what i needed at the time… i somehow ate everyday and had someones roof over my head. i had people building me up not tearing me down… i am becoming the person i thought i was! my ex died by suicide during all this and i hate to say but brought my children back too me and we are all getting stronger… today is the first time i have been able to put any of this into words without the anxiety and anger… thank you! the longer you wait the more you will be broken. you have to finally break to repair years of damage you dont even know is there. there is a beautiful life past narccissism and it brutal betrayel . you will be in my thoughts ! you are worth it!!!!!! i just got out of a relationship of two years where i was constantly fighting with my girlfriend because i kept catching her cheat and lie and no matter if i caught her in her lies she still refused to tell me the truth even though i would demand an answer. one time i caught her lying and after an hour of asking and pleading that she tell me the truth she still denied it and made excuses for herself. i was devestated when she didn’t want to get back with me because after two years i got out of the co tract with her in a house and i told her that i wanted to work things out separated and then we would work on ourselves and we would get help and then come back together and nope she had already called all her ex’s and put herself on all these dating sites and she clearly found another bait because she told me that. after a week of chain smoking and being down, my friends and family helped me he’s and i thought i wasn’t going to get over her that quick. by the way she left me in debt and i’m over her and what healed me quicker was blocking her numbers from my phone and emails so she couldn’t get a hold of me. never will i let someone hurt me that way hi everyone. these comments are really helpful. i have recently realized my husband is a narcissist. he has all the behavior of one. but the worst part about it is he’s always threatening not to pay the bills he knows i don’t like a messy house he won’t take out the trash he messes up the house i mean when i say mess up the house i mean he’ll spill something on the floor look at it and leave it to mess up dishes mess up the stove and leave it he’s the most filthiest person i’ve ever seen in my life he hasn’t always been this way but recently he has shown the traits of this disease and is getting worse it’s like he destroys the house to get to me and he knows it bothers me he’ll start talking about her friend or someone at work is bothering him whatever the complaint is of the day and then it turns around on me now all of a sudden it’s my fault he’s always on facebook and these people whoever he’s talking to or lift him lick lifting him up i don’t know what you’re telling him but he’s is it gets worse when he’s on facebook i hear him laughing smelling happy then when he gets off facebook it is time to talk to me it’s always something serious uncomfortable conversations nothing nice just you know it is a just seem like he’s filled with lotta hate and i’m so want to get out of it. i’d like to know if they are group meetings in my area someone i can talk to if there’s any such thing please send me a email letting me know because this is not getting any better is worse every day just the other day he spilled came in the house with some juice and spilled it all over the floor and only reason he marked it up but only because i complained but he left them up right there in the doorway and the doorway is disgusting it’s just disgusting and i’ve got to the point where i don’t clean up behind him i just leave it but as long as i leave it he leave it and it goes on for days of a filthy mess there he will not clean it so i don’t know what to do anymore i i want out but this is my house so what do i do everything. i hope i’m not his gibbering on but i just came home from work and i’ve been reading stuff like this daily and i just decided to leave a comment and get in the conversation with you guys. om i’ve been with a narcissist doing this for almost 20 years of my life has been pure hell..ups downs i’m always wrong i’m never right i can never be sick i can never be down i’m just got to be doing doing doing for him i’m never doing nothing right on a piece of s*** i’m a horror and when i actually do nothing staying home take care of the kids do what i’m supposed to do when he’s out cheating on me lies lies lies and lies the first all the time omg he is crazy….. i have been in a “relationship” for 21 years as well. i just want him to go. i have asked him to go, then he does the common, blah blah blah, and he is still here. i am afraid of the arguments, etc that will come to his leaving if i evict him. i have no no money, i do have a running car and a job, thank god! i just want him to move on, we are to old to finish out our lives like this. i am 51, grown children. just me and my cat lol. jeff/jay/dave, i know what your saying. mine has gone on for almost 9 years now. my only child turns 5 in may. i only found out about the narcissistic personality two nights ago and it felt like a hammer hitting me in the head and it was suddenly clear. every trait listed, i have seen in her, her mother and all 3 of her daughters from previous marriages. i don’t want that for my son. right now she has had me agonizing for 7 days about what i have done wrong to upset her. i just found out today she thinks i value my sisters opinions over hers. what the $%@&?. i am trying to come up with a plan to contain this issue until i know more about it. thank you for posting. lg from a doctor, who had over 40,000 hours in his 18 yrs of practice! stupid, dont know better. moron, cant help themselves! imbecile, will always do the negative or worst thing they can possibly do! compassionet will think about it. educated will walk away and count their blessing. my boyfriend argues with me all the time about the littlest things. but he’ll turn around and do those same things but his excuses are validated but not mine. he tells me i should “check him: abt the things he does that bothers me and when i do its a problem.. its like i have to walk on eggshells because i don’t know if what i say will cause an argument. i don’t like confrontation. hes asked me to marry and/or have kids but how can we even think of starting a family and we cant even get past small simple things. he says hes sorry and loves me and thinking about seeking professional help but turns around and does the same thing week after week. hes a great person smart amazing but the back and forth is taking a toll on me. i don’t think someone who truly loves you would be so mean and treat you like that. i think my boyfriend also is a narcissistic person. he is so unhappy person. always thinking negative thoughts in his mind to fight with me and searching for negative ideas to argue with me. i can’t say anything to him and whatever i said after he’s developed different thought in his mind to argue with me and his unrealistic thought from his mind always right and i am always wrong. he is higher self and nobody is better than him and he is the best person in this world. he is a very self, proud person. this is a 4years relationship with him now and my life is a nightmare. my friends are telling me to leave him and also my family does but i love him so much and i thought if i leave him, he would never find someone good ? and i thought i can help him to become a better person but i realized it many times some people are can change by someone you love but some people are never can change because that’s how they are born with this or like that. he is so very self center. i am his doormat i feel. he sees me only when he’s want to. i am a free spirit person so i don’t like someone tell me what to do. he is a controlled freak, extremely jealous, person. i think he isn’t a normal person at all. normal people are arguing for a fact. his negative thoughts are always right and i’m wrong and everyone is wrong and now we’re fighting for the moment. he has accused me of something i didn’t do. he always accusing me something i didn’t do and he’s never wrong. i don’t think i can fix this relationship with him right? i don’t think anybody can help me either. i’m so sad to leave him. and the most problem is he is my next door neighbour. so if leave him but i still do see him anyway. i don’t usually give up person. i thought i can do this but he is a very difficult, mean, racist, bossy, criticism, judgemental, negative and disrespectful person. looks like i really have to let go of him huh? and he’s definitely not a romantic person at all. no passionate either. sometimes i just want him to say he loves me but i realized it now my heart is longing to someone more than him…..????????????? i’ve been a prisoner in my home for, can you believe it, 41 years! i’m finally getting out. in one week, i feel better about myself than i have in 41 years. i’m finally free! but the damage is done. i don’t know if i can ever trust anyone ever again. your afraid of not getting the love and their condescending nature of finding no fault in themselves makes you feel like u need to be justified abd sou goi back to torture yourself trying to cry through to the one toy love but hate their demeanor and their purpose in your life. i have found that it is because of the traumatic bonding (there’s a lot of information about it available). it’s a dynamic behavior where you’ve been treated well and bad, and because of the “good times”you are expectant of when you’re going to receive the “good treatment”, no matter how much you have to wait, you think it is possible. it’s a game of ‘hope’ where the narc makes you “addict” to this game and where you as a “victim’ are willing to play it (unconsciously for both). first we had to malign self interest and egoism, and now we’re going after self esteem. nope, sorry, none of these things are not to be conflated with narcissism, no matter how much you’d like it to be the case, nor do they lead to narcissism in any way. narcissists are woefully deficient in genuine self esteem, pride, a healthy ego, which they compensate for with their grandiosity and having to constantly get ‘narcissistic supply’ from their targets. they need constant affirmation that they are not defective, from *people*, i.e. they are very much *dependent* on other people, not individuals in any way, shape or form. they do *not* like to be left alone. stop trying to portray egoists as narcissists. bye. i sorry but how do you come to that conclusion with the info he provided “sociopaths” that just seems so odd? also where “john” i only see jphn? very odd????? decision you made going back is not a false choice. you only follow what you really wanted and loved to be. being a victim of this situation is a great definition of how tough you are to accept every flaws he/she has. you night feel stupid or fool but the truth is you have the most flexible personality to be with a narcissist. its hard to be in that relationship because you will gonna feel happy loving the person and at the same time you will also feel alone. dealing with is to never look down yourself and believe that your not the victim but your the rescuer of someone’s unwanted behaviour. i am very sorry about your situation but i’m so glad that you are ok and free from the abuse. i hope the rest of your years be blessfully and filled with joy. i understand how you feel about not trusting, which i can relate being in the same situation and you will be able find someone who treat you with real love and respect, until then take care and finish enjoying your stress and narcs free life i think my ex ( on and off for 6 years) may be a narcissist. i realized early on something wasn’t right , i just couldn’t put my finger on it. what really started to freak me out was the soul less, empty stare. during sex which was bizarre , and had many many issues, he would stare, like he was looking right through me, not even blinking the entire time. while we were kissing i would open my eyes and there he was wide eyed, dead eyes . i would do work on computer and he would sit and stare. if i said something about it he would say, wow, most women would be so happy their boyfriend wants to look at them with love. you must have some serious childhood issues that you cant allow someone to love you. yikes, i didnt think it was love. i thought he was going to kill me and eat me!! i always felt bad, 1. because he would somehow make me believe it was me, and i must have some psychological issue. 2. he would return and act so sweet and nice, and i would be convinced things would be different. it got so bad that i felt like the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end. there always felt like some darkness was lurking. i dont know how else to explain it. now after going through that i feel like my self esteem is non existent, and i just feel ripped apart. i know it’s only a matter of time he will appear again. i recognised 2 years ago that my wife has narcissistic tendencies. first i fell into the anger trap but now i am working on it. still thinking about my son. my husband is a wonderful man! he takes care of our family and me. he’s almost always building me up, building us up! but when we fight, it’s horrible. i keep thinking it’s my inadequacies, but he said something that just made it click. it’s not the first time he told me he lacks empathy, but when a coworker became seriously ill, my husband said “i feel bad for him; i usually don’t feel bad for anyone.” and it hit me. he’s narcissistic. he’s classic textbook narcissistic. he’s got a huge personality. always complimenting himself and has a deep need for acceptance and superiority. he must be in the spotlight. don’t get me wrong, he’s not abusive. he’s very attentive to me and my feelings, but when he meets even the slightest criticism, he lashes out quickly. he’s always had trouble with interpersonal relationships. now that i’ve pinpointed the problem, which is a need of his rather than an incompetence of mine, i can begin learning how to love him better and how to manage our disagreements without escalating to fighting. this article is very helpful! thank you! oh wow! so am i! he asks or nearly beggs me to movi in with him and it was i love this i mis you that! thinking back to hearing that disgusts me cause he got me here, and has droooed me like a hitcake. he has 2 perfectly good vehicles. he drives one and the other sits there. he keeps the keys. so i cant get a job. in 6 minths that ive been here, guess where ive been taken . . .the grocery store. thats it! and if i ask to go anywhere, he says maybe or ill think about it. i am a 36 year old woman thats being treat as a child. and if u are wondering about intimacy, sex or empathy, what sex? what intimacy? and what empathy?! there is none. if we r talking, he talks and i sit. if i talk i get passiveness, and get told to hush! if hes watching something, i have to hush. if im watching something, he talks incessantly. oh girl, i totally know what you are going through! im going through it too. i feel like im the only one going through it too. do you feel that way? like youre totally alone? ive known and been with my narc boyfriend for a long while. me and my son moved in with him 3 states away. horrible dicision! he begged me to come here. ive been here for 6 months and in that time i have grown to hate him. thats a strong word but how he makes us feel is also a very strong feeling. he has 2 cars. he drives one but yet i cant drive the other. i cant get a job, so im completely dependant on him. the only place he has or will take me to is the, wait for it. . . the grocery store! and when we go there, he doesnt want me to leave his side! so i feel totally controlked. he jojes that his middle name is “fun”. im still waiting to see where thats plausible. hes not touched me since i arrived. if he knows i want something or want to do something, he wont do it. he thinks hes the smartest person in the world and he tears down everyone around him. theres no empathy to how im feeling ever. he makes my 14 year okd son go everywhere, even to the corner store and its because he knows he doesnt want to go. when we have conversations, he will talk and talk but if i start to talk, he will jump in real quick, keep talking and then wave off whatever im trying to say. do you have that done to you? i realky just want to run for the hills but if i live, bevause i cant get a job, i have nowhere to go but to my mom’s who already has a house of nine. nadia i am reading this 5 years later. i’m assuming that your love bombing stage has ended and his need for admiration has caused a lot of problems. i’ve been married to who i just discovered (how can i be so dumb) narc tendencies. i had a non affectionate first marriage without companionship nor basic conversation. after my divorce when i wasn’t looking i met this man who swept me off my feet! so loving! compliments i had never had. i am someone who lives unconditionally and was so grateful! i had a 20 and 12 yr old and one going into college. he made it seem like he wanted this family(i didn’t realize there were conditions) our first year was beautiful, living, happy, joyful. i was 45 and thought i would never find love and thought how happy my life would be. couldn’t have been mire wrong. he would rage over small things, walk out in me. i figured out it was because life just got in the way and he didn’t feel he was getting the attention he craved. i worked hard to split myself in many directions (he never helped i did it all myself and had to keep his ego up) he lost many jobs and it was always everyone else’s fault, he didn’t talk to his older children for the first 5 years we were married (because they sided w/mom in the divorce) he turned his younger son who lived with us against the older 2 and his mother. i would say to him… don’t you have memories of love for them as toddlers etc that would make you want to mend this? no, hateful. i always tried to understand him, make excuses for his behavior, not judge him. finally after he lost many jobs(i never threw that in his face) my kids were 18, 19 both with high functioning autism late diagnosis. he said that they should be on their own over 18. he was miserable. yelled at me. i finally said do you want me to remove what makes you miserable? he said yes. i think he thought i would kick them out and we would be alone but i of course had to leave with him. it’s been 6 yrs we are separated not divorced. i still love him he says he loves me. he has not tried to repair this he just “wants me back” he doesn’t understand that i value family because he doesn’t value his children or grandchildren. when he busts them he says “ they were pleased to see me” he can’t relate on an emotional level. i miss his intense love for me (i thought it was) when you no longer are the one giving them that affection they seek/need they look elsewhere for that. it wasn’t until recently that i realize his narc tendencies block him from really connecting emotionally. he recently said he wants to work on himself “to get me back” he went to one counselor then said they never made a return appt( he just doesn’t want to put the effort in but saying he will go he seems to think that’s enough) he has told me that without me here in the house (we see each other daily and weekly i stay over we talk every day i’m always soothing his ego) he feels he can date. took his ring off so women will seek him out and has gone in the personals and if he had the opportunity would act in it. he said this all without regard for my feelings. i told him he can do all that if he wants to end the marriage be with someone new every day/night but this is the first i heard of him wanting out. he said he wants me, just me in this house. (yet doesn’t think of my feelings) yet i’m still in love with him. i’m the sick one! it just goes to show how many people have borderline/narcissistic/cluster b traits and how many out there have had to suffer for it. i recently got out of a 4 month relationship with a woman whom i absolutely adore still. but prior to her, i was in a very healthy relationship, yet i have had two short encounters with histrionic/narcissistic personalities in the past. so i had educated myself on the tendencies. i met her in a music group months ago which we would attend every saturday. we started slowly messaging and got a bit closer. i realised she had a photo collage of her own self as a wallpaper on her mobile phone. i thought it was a bit narcissistic, but didn’t say anything. just before dating, as we got closer, one day she suddenly asked me how i was and when i asked the same back, she told me she wasn’t great. bizarrely enough, the entire day i saw her she was laughing and was fine. she then had a neck spasm and i walked her to the car at which point she sat down in pain and told me how her ex husband who is bi polar had apparently taken photos of her home and where she lives and shown people in her home country. she burst into tears for a split second and then stopped and said “i’m so sorry…”. i sat with her massaging her neck and tried to make her feel better. later, i mentioned this to a psychiatrist family member as it felt a bit odd and she said ‘this could be a fishing hook to reel you in, as it isn’t typical behaviour’. i would always ask her out and she would agree. but she wanted nobody to know about it. so i was dating her in secret constantly. for 4 months, she kept trying to keep it hidden. i would ask her “are you free in a few days?” and she would say “we’ll see…”. for up to 4 months, imagine having to always be left lingering with no plans, most of the time. then she would come and stay for 2 days in a row, and the whole cycle would start. we would always talk, but all of the conversations were oriented towards her. she had no problems with me investing time in trying to help her get places, sorting out her resume, listening to her talk about her bi polar ex partner, take her places, organise nights out, cook for her. yet, when it came to wanting to plan something in advance, she would say ‘i jolt, i get scared…so that’s why i react in that way with you’. none of it made any sense. we would sleep together, have sex, we would go out, talk on the phone and yet suddenly ‘she was scared’ when i asked her to meet again? she would do this to the point i stopped asking and she would then ask me. it was like a bizarre push/pull. when it reached close to 5 months, i turned to her and said ‘for how long do you want to keep this relationship a secret?!’. she turns and says ‘oh come on, first one or two months weren’t anything anyway’. completely dismissive of the start of a relationship. and to her, this was okay to say. she sent me photos of expensive watches on her hand and would ask which one looks better on her wrist. she then started sending me photos of men’s watches and asked me which one i wanted. i was like ‘this is a ridiculously expensive watch’, there’s no need for this. she never did buy it and i knew she wouldn’t. this woman had barely paid for a night out, yet she wanted to suddenly spend close to 1000 bucks on a watch for me?! it didn’t make any sense. when i showed her my own watch which is lovely, she said ‘it’s ok. but these ones would look better’. so superficial. she would eye up and talk to men in front of me and would say “our waiter, he is so cute, i really like him” at a restaurant. she would leave a voice note saying how her new manager is great and ‘very handsome, tall, great figure…i really like him’. i remember asking her whether we should get into her car or mine and she said ‘mine, as your car is rubbish’. later on i asked her why she said that, she said ‘i wanted to know how ambitious you are. and i asked myself why is a single guy like you driving in a car like that’. i was dumb founded. her car is far worse than mine and she called me over sensitive when i reacted to it. but that’s the kicker, she is smart and says ‘i can laugh at my own rubbish car’. but that’s her way of trying to get away with saying something like that. i asked her what she wants out of life. her response was “a beautiful life”. i asked her to elaborate and she said “a beautiful home, a beautiful relationship” is what i want. then she turned around and said “for example, your mind is beautiful, your interactions with others is beautiful, sure your face may not be wow, but it’s ok for me’. the fact that she had the ability in her to say such a thing, made my stomach churn. i asked her so why did you say that when you first saw me, you said ‘who’s that guy?’. she then says ‘well yeah, among the music group, you were the better of them all’. again, they are smart with how they react to it and use their back handed complements. when i said ‘how would you feel if i said that to you?’, she laughed and said ‘i wouldn’t care, i guess i have thicker skin’. i got silent treatment for a very brief moment for not using the right endearing term. when i told her after the breakup why she did that, she said ‘because you use that term with others. it’s not right that you use that same term with me’. when she found out that i had told one of the guys in our singing group about us, she told me ‘i am really really upset with you. i’m deeply deeply upset with you’. she ‘forgave me’ when i apologised later, but it just made me think to myself who would have the heart to say that rather than just letting it go. she barely complemented me. unless i literally wore a suit and all of my clothes are smart/casual. yet we would have sex and it was great, but the emotional side was just not there. she would say the right things, but the emotions were just void. i found multiple men getting in touch with her. i think she even may have slept with one. when i confronted her about it, she would say things like ‘he was a customer and found me on instagram…it’s not my fault’ or ‘i wanted to give this guy a discount so he took my number’. she would never invite me into any place there were crowds of her own. yet, i invited her to all of my gatherings. she has her own photos everywhere on social media. places that i took her to dine or eat or exhibitions and not a mention of me in sight. i’m currently heart broken and so is she. but the truth is, the more i say these things out loud the more i realise i did the right thing. people need to realise that narcissism is on a scale. my partner didn’t fly into a fit of rage, but she needed male attention and craved it. if you mention some of the above to people, they might overlook it. but nobody who has some level of empathy, would ever say or do these things. it’s called trauma bonding. look that up. michelle lee has some good videos on the subject. also inner integration had good videos. they are manipulative persuading like slithering snakes. i’ve been in a narcissistic relationship for 5 years now and it’s been hell. i tried breaking it off with him from the very beginning because i was reading the red flags and i ignored them. he’s been very smooth about the way he would control and manipulate every situation. he would do things to keep control of the relationship. they make us feel guilty and sorry for them. they are weasels. like car salesmen selling us bullshit. tried to keep me away from my family my friends my neighbors and even work. i dont understand why i have tolerated it either for so long. guess we are vulnerable and maybe use to putting up with abuse. i’ve felt like a hostage in my own home that i bought and paid for and he contributed nothing but chaos and animosity for five years. i’m still beating myself up over letting this relationship linger on for 5 years. oh my god i’m going thru the exact same situation. we are going thru our third and final break up. there is/ was no intimacy, we never did anything together except what he wanted to do. same situation with talking as you. he would also snap my head off anytime i wanted to talk about the relationship. also sigh and roll his eyes. he always insisted he loved me. the last time we got back he begged me to take him back. it’s like he doesn’t remember he did that. i keep beating myself up for taking him back and staying. there are lots of articles about why people go back to narcissists. it’s called trauma bonding. research that and you will find answers. good luck with your new relationship i hope it is everything you’re hoping it will be! i was with a narcissistic man and could use people to reach out to. please and thanks. i imagine our experience was similar. love and light to you and everyone on here who has been through narcissistic abuse. let’s see i don’t know really who is more messed up my husband or me. we both didn’t have ideal childhoods except my 12 yr old sister took care of me, my dad worked all the time and my stay at home mom slept. but, when my sister turned 18 she had to move out moms rules, and in 6mths i gained weight was acting bad and she ruined me. my parents got divorced and she let it be known to me she didn’t want me, she agreed to gjve up her claim on my dad’s retirement if he didn’t go after child support. i found out in my wedding day she told all her friends i was her granddaughter and my brother who is 18 yrs older than me was the one she told her friends was my dad but his girlfriend died in an accident. i guess that made it look better in the 80’s for a child not going with their mother. my dad already knew but he didn’t see it as important to tell me. she got into a fight with her friends at my wedding and they couldn’t wait to tell. my dad would always take the high road and say well holly that is your mom and you only have one for better or worse. he is gone now. i spent a big part of my teens and early adult life calling her out all the time on her lies but now i don’t. i didn’t know one day myself i would marry a lier, lie too, and the become so distraught after the only person who ever believed in me left and died i just said f*** the whole world my kids and all and drank myself to almost death. i finally said if i don’t clean myself up, i’m going to be leaving my children with i don’t know what. everyone seemed to love my husbands personality and i always felt out of place. however, he had no motivation and having been together since 18 he never completed one schooling or application process on his own. i don’t want to sound bitter but, when we went to look at purchasing our 1st home i had put myself thru college already and my career was taking off. i was living in a mobile home park and my trailer was paid off. the housing market was crazy and people were like why are you still in a trailer, i said most people are trying to keep up with the “joneses” in this market and in my little trailer park with just the lot rent i am the joneses. besides even in there they were putting in new ones for 1800 1900 a month. it was crazy but he would bring me brochures home from 600,000 model homes he would stop at. so when we were ready to look, i was looking at older homes in the higher 200’s and he couldn’t see anything but brand new model homes. so to make him happy and my already long hours almost impossible because he assured me he could handle the kids. we moved further out so he was an hour away from his work, i was 2 1/2 away from mine not including traffic, he would get the kids to daycare and after school. everything would be great if he got his dream home, sorry our dream home. 4 bedrooms, 4 1/2 baths (yeah). i would get up at 3:30 4:00am and get dinner ready in the crockpot he would put it on before he left and i would get home between 9 11 pm. no wonder i crashed and burned. he started complaining about us having a daughter and i needed to leave on time. he complained about the hours but never about the raises or increases. it’s not supposed to be all about money i get it but he always wanted the new cars the latest and greatest. me i was happy with simple. i bought the same 5 pair of black slacks identical and had different dress tops. partly from being overweight, my husband has always been trim but worked in a warehouse environment and always wore jeans and tennis shoes. one pair of his sneakers cost more than my dress shoes. 220.00 for foamposites, i used to think when we got older so would the clothing but no. i have actually had people our age ask me if he was my son before. he thought that was funny and i find it embarrassing because i look like a mom and my kid look like they are mine. when i tell people we are the same age people do a look back because there comes an age when it’s time to stop dressing as the kids in your sins school. stop shaving your hair and go tee thing all the way down to assure no grey will show. this is when i really began to understand we had so little in common. i was always so tired and had no one to talk to. this huge house we were going to do all this entertaining in was so empty. so i drank and quit. i got dui1, 2, 3. i never hit or hurt anyone thank the lord but myself as i had gastric bypass and i got an ulcer that became impacted which almost successfully ate thru the entire stomach wall. had the officer not arrested me the last time and i collapsed in jail i would have died. it took a year to go thru court with all the surgeries i needed to correct the stomach and repair the intestines. i ended up having a misdemeanor dui but a felony driving on a revoked license because i shouldn’t have been in a car period. it was by gods grace because he wanted me here more than i did. i go away and was gone for 22 months. i didn’t fight or argue i just took whatever they gave. i have not had a drink since 2013 upon that initial arrest and i was finally honest with everyone. i let my children’s teachers and school know and i was tired of lying about it all. the funny thing is everyone was pulling for me. my husband was basking in the i’m going to be the good single dad and hold it all down while she is gone glory. when we purchased that house he was not on the mortgage. in fact no matter how many real estate power of attorney forms i signed before and while away the bank who held the mortgage company would not talk with him. it still was not a great market and they new i qualified and was receiving disability, they knew i had to go to prison which is also a valid hardship. now they could rush and foreclose or drag the file out for 14 months and re establish the mortgage the month i get out. i would not have been their first case. as long as we keep on utilities, etc. so my husband is eating this up because right after i go away he must have gotten laid off. but he doesn’t go and get a legitimate job with an actual company he begins to work under the table. he tells my family he is working and drops my daughter off with my family. he then began to have parties at our big house with his younger brother and his friends. he begins an affair with my sister in laws  sister and she is 24. we are 40. i can’t help but remember that his brother was 9 when we got married and they are all the same age. i come home and he tells me he wants to see if he can make it on his own and he want to leave the kids with me but he going to go stay at his moms. something didn’t seem right and i can always tell when 1+12. it wasn’t adding up and i am always compelled to find the answers. i knew he was not going to volunteer them. he was holding onto his phone like forte knox. so i just ran a query and downloaded the data from the bills to excel found the most called number. i saw a 202 number being called all the time even when he should have been working. i called the bank and found no direct deposits. i said i needed a ride to the bank to get a form the to social security to turn back on disability. i emptied the joint account opened an individual account. had my disability direct deposited into this new account for the following month. then when he was packing i said call for a ride the car stays. he said you can’t drive. i said it’s my car i paid for and apparently i paid the car insurance. he said what am i going to do. find yourself and find bus fare. so he was looking at the debit card, i said that account is empty. he said what, how am i going to eat. i said about the same way i’m going to keep this electric cutoff notice from happening, i’m going to have to call someone in my family and tell them what you were not doing. he told me i was crazy and i said you are right. i’m crazy, your normal but i bet i could tell this story to a dr phil or someone and you tell your side i’ll tell mine it’s so unbelievable we could get on tv. he said not on your life. i said bet. i talked to their producer but he wouldn’t get on the phone why, because he cares what others think. so what happened. he never admitted he cheated until after he left my sister in laws sister and myself finally talked. he told he he had to stay until we sold the house. i said no there is no we. he can leave, he is not on the house and there is no equity. it will be sold a break even. all that he own is with him at his mothers. i’m sure it looked great when you visited but that was a part of his past. he doesn’t he have enough for an apartment. see word of advice if a guy just wants to take you to his “big house” but can’t even take you out to an an expensive dinner first and i’m not talking about outback than he’s probably living way beyond his means. so he leaves for one week and i actually had a date he was supposed to come get hanna. he shows up 3 hours late and never left. i felt like an ass and should have set up better boundaries. then i let him decide we’re moving to florida and two years later i’m still in a rut. i don’t trust him and i’m not well either. i have no support. this was where he always wanted to live. i know we are co dependent. i just know now it’s a lot easier for him to put his hands on me and i’m getting ? hurt. i am new to the site. i am not new to the situation. my husband has, in fact, npd. i was warned prior to marriage but i love him so much. i was told by him that i was the best thing that has happened to him. well, that didn’t last long. but i hung on to that comment. over the years it has gotten worse and i get quiet when he gets loud. i don’t know what to do. i can’t fix him. what has broken me is that he said i need to leave because his ex wife wants him back anyway. i am broken. hi i’m jo i’ve been having my hart ripped out so meny times by my partner. she has always right from day 1 been always about herself in a level of wow.. she is gorgeous and was the best thing i’d ever layed eyes on but i feel i was in a way blinded. i should of picked up on the way she was treating me and ended their she is an emotional roller coaster and not in a good way. in a way she get angry and hurts me verbally. i wish i didn’t confide things with her like things about my childhood my mum and dad and really just anything because she always hurts me. example my mum die around 7 years ago i’m 37 so she was young and yeah when i was a kid my mum might of been i bit out of control with me at time but i was a very hard to kid to deal with no excuse though. but i loved her a she was a great mum over all. but my partner hates her the thing is she has never meet her and when she is having her swings at me all she goes on about is my dead mum she is glad she is daed and she deserves to be dead but it all comes out at once abut my kids i have with another lady she hates them little cun!! s see calls them thay are only youg and she saw them the first time i got with her but see had a melt down with one of the girls and didn’t want to see them again. until three years down the track she said she would give it another go a was scared of the outcome but i gave it a go every thing was going ok she constantly contraindicated them though and girl she hated now is her favourite and my other girl the youngest see hates and yes right at the end of the holidays she let her have it. it’s so upsetting to see her ment to be the most beautiful woman i had ever seen but what lies beneath in her sole??? it has destroyed me. i’m a strong man i believe i’ve live a hard life with always dealing with something. but i’m a caring person who has patience and understanding and i don’t judge to the point of banishment i always lissen to what people have to say and in a way i do carry some code pendency trats passed down from my mum she was always helping other and taking the blows. i’ve got two beautiful girl to my partner who stressed that’s what she wanted it was not a joint decision. i wanted to wait for a while just because she was so meny things i couldn’t believe that she/someone could be so cruel and hurtfull. and way i’m still with her well the sad thing is she has a mental health illness wether it’s being a narcissistic or border line behavior disorder i’m not sure or both?? but i know deep down she doesn’t mean what comes out of her mouth and in the end when she calms down she shows remorse. but in some case’s like with my kids it’s to late i can take the emotional beating but my family can’t and she hurts eveything and one i love when she is angry but it aspecially hurts me. and 4 years of this has pushed me to a point of not caring for her anymore i know that’s hurting her but i can’t she has slowly over the 4 years banished everything i love and even me as a person im not good enough for her she says. even though i’ve been their for her and supported her want needs and remaind as calm as i can when she loses it. the resen i’m on this site writing this is she said last night that i am narcissistic? she is so clever in her mind she would be very intelligent if her powers was not aimed at to hurt everyone else. but no to this day i’m controlling i’m abusive i’ve destroyed her life basically i’m every thing she is sometimes i believe her in my own head but i know in my hart i’m not like that and now i have got two adorable little girls who i’m worried about i want to leave my partner but i can’t leave the girls not with her she is a good mum and the a lot of the tim all her twisted ways are directed to me but i’ve seen some of her ways affect my girls weather its the questions she asks the two nearly three year old or her lack of control with them both. she try so hard to be a great mum to them but it’s the person she is that’s the sad thing i can’t do it anymore can any one give me advice please on what i can do?? best answer! because we are addicted. i wish i remembered everything i’ve read about that part but there is a lot out there about it. the highs and lows they put us thru with all the manipulating etc causes us to get addicted to them. (something among those lines) plus yes we also want to help them and tend to think we will be the ones to help fix them/change them. i’ve always told people (before i was with this narcissist or even knew what it was) that,” so and so is crazy if they stay in that abusive relationship! i would leave in a second”. well here i am now 10 years of it and keep going back for more and other than those 2 answers i truly have no idea why i would keep going back! ughhhh the drama and chaos is insane so addicted is really the only sane reason i can understand! i’m finally after 11 years realizing that i’m married to someone with npd. this past month i was able to get our mortgage cut from 25 years down to 15. lowered rate and an additional $400/month. she was fuming at me because she wanted to pay an additional $9000 on the closing costs. but she didn’t want to pay $9000 in closing so they added it to the mortgage itself. she blames me for it as if i did something horrible! i cannot tell her that it was her insistence to pay less that caused the problem! at work her boss demoted her 2 levels   claimed it was a re alignment. i think it was wrong to do. but my wife is taking it out on me as if i was responsible! she’s from russia and was ‘comfortable’ in her job there and liked her old boss. she also wants to get into clinical research which is what i do. i’ve tried to help but nobody is hiring without lots of experience! she says, “let’s go to russia and you will see what it’s like to find a job!!” it’s as if i have to go through it just to relate to her pain! and yesterday: i like to go to the gym once/wk. i totally forgot about it and was working on building a sandbox for my children. she looked at me with disapproving eye’s and shaking her head as if i did something idiotic!! and the kicker: it was her birthday and she wanted a new chair. we spent a few hours at the store and i encouraged her to get exactly the one she wanted. cost not an issue. she was happy. we went to the store and she bought a cake she liked (she hates the cake i make at home). then we went to another store for flowers. i don’t know   didn’t get the $52 flower bouquet but two $15 (one from me, one from my son). she says, why didn’t you get up earlier and get the cake and flowers when they have more options?!?! after a week she’s still hardly talking to me! she takes every word i say to defend myself and twists it and contorts it to make her the innocent one and me a villain!! but even good weeks i’m always “walking on eggshells” afraid of saying something that she would get offended at! i’d love to have her go back to her father in russia and his flat and her couch pull out bed! but i love my children and want them to be with me in this country!! probably because we don’t alwaya feel right about ourselves. our parents were critical. maybe we could be better. yet we always feel alone anyways cuz they don’t care but we do just nurture yourself and be free cuz it’s all about them not you. hello all, i have been in a relationship with my boyfriend for 2 years now. we had a very rough start to our relationship. my boyfriend kept ties with an ex girlfriend who is very manipulative and i believe even narcissistic. i have been trying to open his eyes towards her childish behavior. when they dated she didnt even have a job. he created a business for her and she manipulated him into doing everything for her.when he broke up with her she bawled and told him she was going to commit suicide then went off and had sex with other dudes. for this reason he took her back because he felt responsible for her, and she guilt tripped him into feeling sorry for her.when he broke up with her for the last time she did the exact same thing. when i got into the relationship i had no idea how much contact he has had with her. she is friends with every single one of his friends and still contacts his mother. she got pissy with me when i told her she needed to back off. he decided to block her, and she goes around the blocking to *67 call him so it shows restricted. she also sends e mails or contacts him through a friend. i have confronted her several times asking her to stop. we invited her to the house sat her down and she lied about all of it. now that she can’t manipulate him, she manipulates his friends. she plays the victim in every situation and can’t do anything for herself. i found out she had been messaging him everyday and even coming to the house when i wasn’t around for him to fix her car. sending pictures of her ass and talking about having sex. we were definitely in a relationship and right before he proposed and we got engaged. i confronted her and told her she owes me an apology and what she had to say for herself? her response was that i infact owe her the apology because i constantly accuse her of things she doesn’t do. i called her a hoe to her face and she immediately *67 called him to bitch about me.she is very attention seeking and loves the attention she gets by pulling her tits out of her shirt and posing in pictures half naked and posting them to facebook. he has refused to cut ties with her until recently. throughout our relationship he made me feel i was the crazy one for wanting her to go away. he made such a big ordeal of getting rid of her that he now has his ring back and i am left wondering if they both are narcissistic.? he has never once been able to stand up to her and i don’t understand why. its hurtful evertime he responds and gives her the satisfaction of knowing he will always come to her rescue. i’m sorry there’s is no deep real love and support, in good and bad times. i’m sorry she minimized you and is patronizing. you did the right thing by divorce. you deserve a love that is unconditional, supportive, and accept for the real you with any limitations or conditions. good luck. and try to make your interactions basic; nothing personal. just business of raising children. take a look at trauma bonding, it will explain a lot. i was a victim of a narcissistic person too. no one knows how much i got hurt and abused by him emotionally but i kept being with him cz i loved him , no matter what. it’s been a year that he left me by torture but i still wanna go back to him and i can’t understand why ! i can’t even hate him for what he did to me , that’s so hard to be victim. wish i could get him outta my min thank you a lot for providing individuals with a very spectacular possibility to read critical reviews from this site most women nowadays are real narcissists and very stuck up altogether, which makes them real total losers as well. the narcissistic person hates you endlessly because they hate themselves and that you cannot take away their pain that they blame you as the cause. they hate you as much as they hate themselves and then some. brain scans of npd individuals have shown that their brain lacks the ability to process or feel empathy. do you really think you can change their brain function? some narcissists would rather die than ever admit being wrong about anything or ever see you as better than them in anything or even equal. you are dirt to the narcissist. don’t forget that. your sole purpose in life is to serve them. it makes them feel temporarily human when you do. until they need yet another endless ego fix. you will never be enough for them. they will destroy you because this is all they know. having strong personal boundaries can help save you. or leaving them and your wishful rescue fantasies that they will ever change, at the door. proceed with them at your own risk. hi, i was with someone which i suspect he was a narc. i was drinking too much just to compensate how much i feel worthless and insecure in those times. my mom is also a n and i was seeing a therapist because i can’t deal with all. then i found my inner power and left him , moved another country , started a new job. it wasn’t easy at all . mourning for months and never be able to stop thinking him even i knew i made the best decisions of my life. then , after two tear of no contact i ran into him in a street when on my vacation. it was so intense , i was still loving him no matter what and we start talking and now he wants to get marry with me. he is doing this love bombing thing and makes me feel like he loves me so much and he says sorry about the past and wants to change. i am super confused because what i know they would never be changed or this love bombing wouldn’t last long time. but i am not the insecure and dependent person any more and i feel like this time can be different. then i read all these stories about how awful people’s marriage and i got freaked out. because i feel happy first time i left him because now he seems like understands me and loves and he is also different now. but is it real? i dont know i just love him and even tough about all information about being in a relationship with a n i still feel like i can be happy with him . or i cant find the power to cut the contact with him again the reason is a strong trauma bond which between you and the narcissist. therefore you are stucked. some people also consider these bondings as soul ties which are spiritual and have to be cut. i don’t know about anyone else,it has taken me almost a year and a half to realize that it was an illness….i just read this article and it is absolutely 110% correct. i have dated this guy for about 18 months. it brings tears to your eyes. it’s the nature of the bond   it’s a trauma bond which is extremely strong and tends to hold you captive sadly. also once you have been controlled and are used to that, it’s quite foreign to be free and we tend to return to what we know  i.e the relationship. huh? the 1 7 scale test ? so000, what are the “results” based upon what response? how do you mention this “test” and then offer no further detail hahaha thats amazing! are you seriously saying that the test is: step 1: ask “are you a narcissist ?” step 2: receive answer. step 3: if “no”, then = not a narcissist. if “yes”, then = narcissist. lol. (p.s. apologies to the thread i am replying under, as this is a reply to the article, and i simply clicked on the first availability i came upon to post this.) sometimes the relationship is put together with two of the same narcissistic people and instead of self evaluation and trying to find out who is to blame dividing something that was once great. admit to the both of you at fault and work on the stuff that bothers the both of you together and move forward together faster stronger better as one. one team one goal. i’m not sure who the comment is from, as it’s titled me, and is 2019 but i have seen all comments on narsasists, ” i’m a little dislexic?, sorry”? but do not agree with any of them. as if this is ” quote”, a mental health disorder,? why’s anybody who has criticism about the suffering and abuse of a narccatist,? ever have the right to be critical, because every body must have some sort of mental health issues, if this is the case. unless you have evaluated proof that you or you’re partner / spouse, are a narccatist in the first place??. kristin thanks for this, it’s been so hard to make sense of everything she’s done. just trying to cope with the pain of her leaving along with all the hurt and loss eveyone is feeling now was all too much. there’s still days i just can’t get out of bed and my eyes are full of tears no matter how hard i want to smile. it might help you to understand traumatic bonding. man i’m going through that right now as i text my wife is putting me through that right now. pray for me that’s my wife female narcissists aren’t playing with a full deck to begin with, and can be very extremely dangerous as well. been there. i’m in that exact situation why am i here? i been with narcissist husband for 26 years, and he is also an expert at hiding his feelings like robot, there is no expression on his face as if i see a man of wax, i lived with him knowing nothing, i used to tell him you’re good for spy work. he broke me mentally and psychologically, he even made me think i was the one who ruined his life and i feel guilt and sorry for him. i feel the same. any boundary i set is not only broken but ridiculed she says she is moving out. but just do it! i feel like we gp back because they have a way pf hoovering us back and convince us that they wil treat us better and very manipulative and we all fal for it until we fond ourselves asking why we even went back to begin with tracy i hope you made it out and we’re successful getting away from him. if not, i believe in you, get out now and don’t look back! i know jeff! i understand why you did that! i too got caught up in the web of sick narcissistic behaviour. there is an energy to the darkness that is captivating and all consuming. it’s a drug! you are truly blessed to have found a partner that is appreciative of the fact that you didn’t do it intentionally but it was part of the mental illness that has been caused by your experiences with the nod sufferer. as for me they’re always on my mind. constantly a voice is saying, ‘go on call her..see if it can be sorted. she can change!’ it’s a hell but one can get through if one is patient enough. good luck with your current love may it more than make up for the pain you have suffered all the best my man! moh i am no doctor, but because you loved that person. even if they are narcissists, you love them. i might be wrong and off of the target. i am married for 24 years to a narcissist. it has been a life of complete hell for me and my two children. our son has down syndrome and our daughter is at university this year. my mother just passed away and has been my only support system. he has depleted me of my self esteem. he made me give up my career and independence. financial dependence is the reason i endured this trauma. i have now inherited enough money for survival, from my late mother, but trauma bonding and my age make me reluctant to move on. i turn 52 years old tomorrow. prayer is my only hope to change this man. i identify with you and must resist the attraction to the n and stay away. maybe your n was confident charming and clever with sex appeal. that’s enough to draw any man back. there is a very good videos on youtube. talk talk talk with your new woman. wishing you success with her. i see a big problem here with the label “narcississt” being massively overused by people as a “catch all” to ascribe blame for chronic emotional pain or emotional injury arising out of relationships that have failed somehow. by labeling the ex  or current “tormentor” a narcissist we can conveniently position ourselves as “the victim” but in fact it takes 2 to tango. sure extreme cases exist, of people who operate from bases of pure selfishness, generating all flavors of evil outcome in their interactions with mankind. but there is a tendency for this term narcissist, or an identification of someone as having npd, to get way overused, so seems. there are only about 1% of people estimated to meet the clinical definition of npd, but if you poll people, seems that everyone who had a bad relationship was with a narcissist, nowadays. one “therapist” on quora spits hate at this identified ‘sub class’ of humanity, and at one point describes how she had previously been in relationships with five narcissists. but wait, if npd is 0.01 fraction of humans, and she had 5, the chance of randomly getting into relationships with 5 npd is 0 01 to the power of 5, or 1 in 10 billion. ha, clearly something deeper going on there, but this preacher of hate and judgement has 35000 quora followers, all self supporting this cognitive bias in a misery echo chamber. i think a good rule of thumb is if someone is encouraging you to hate, you should stop your ears and walk away. carrying hate in your heart only hurts you. let it go i lived 22 years with a narcissist. only after he left me did i realise what he was. my life was horrendous he dragged me down to a dark place. i cried in private cause it was better than the total lack of empathy id get if i broke down in front of him. total strangers were treat with more respect. outsiders seen him as a great bloke but i was humiliated constantly made to feel worthless and much worse. but i stayed always hoping he would change he would see my worth he would love me. we have been apart 5 years and still he tortures me . he has made his world a delutional filled with lies place. i left him. i cheated. i treat him bad. none which are true. if your with a narsissistic partner get out. they cant see reason they cant see the hurt and deveratation they cause. they do no wrong. this man broke me. life with a true narsissist will bring nothing but gut wrenching misery to your life […] https://www.psychalive.org/narcissistic relationships/ […] […] narcissists love to hide their ridicule behind the guise of humor. in a group setting, they might make a joke at your expense, then dismiss your discomfort with a “just kidding!” these jokes are usually thinly veiled criticisms, but because they’re delivered humorously, they can be dismissed as harmless fun. the real intent, however, is to make you look foolish while they play the charismatic comedian because they have little regard for others’ feelings and need to disguise their fragile sense of self, according to psych alive. […] your email address will not be published. required fields are marked * comment * name email δdocument.getelementbyid( "ak_js_1" ).setattribute( "value", ( new date() ).gettime() );

something went wrong. wait a moment and try again.
what to watch supported by this month’s picks include demon baby, a cursed chef and all kinds of people trapped in hellish situations. by erik piepenburg stream it on hulu. arkasha stevenson’s prequel to “the omen” smashes and remixes genres   body and pregnancy horror, nunsploitation, gothic melodrama   to tell a terrifying and visually striking origin story about an ungodly little boy named damien. it’s 1971, and margaret (nell tiger free), an american, is in rome to work at an orphanage before taking her vows to become a nun. there, she befriends carlita (nicole sorace), a disturbed girl who margaret learns is part of a nefarious plan by church elders to bring about the antichrist in hopes that it will sow fear and bring catholics back to the pews. stevenson is too assured a director, too respectful of her source material and too interested in being timely to make a typical evil believer movie. through monstrous visuals and a feminist sensibility, she and her fellow writers, tim smith and keith thomas, connect the dots between religious fanaticism and reproductive freedom, topics as fraught today as they were when “the omen” made its indelible mark on horror in 1976. you needn’t have seen the original “omen” to enjoy this film, but if you’re in the mood for a knockout double feature, it is also streaming on hulu. rent or buy it on major platforms.

 recent and archived work by erik piepenburg for the new york times olivia holt and mason gooding meet cute, then meet killer in this rom com masquerading as a horror movie. by erik piepenburg this month’s monsters include an american psycho, a thin skinned mad scientist and a creep named the calendar killer. by erik piepenburg it is an idea whose time has come, even if it probably won’t happen any time soon. but a gay man can dream, can’t he? by erik piepenburg clay mcleod chapman kept hearing friends say, of their fox news watching parents, “it’s like they were possessed.” that’s what inspired him to write “wake up and open your eyes.” by erik piepenburg luke sewell spoke about the complex legacy of the notorious talk show, which both coarsened american culture and affirmed the values of free speech. by erik piepenburg this month’s picks include a killer in a mickey mouse mask and a thriller that goes to extremes. by erik piepenburg the performer discusses her off broadway musical about warring queens. “everyone can connect to being a young person not feeling understood,” she said.