‘House of the Dragon’ Season 2, Episode 2 Recap: Sleep With One Eye Open
Aemond knows those assassins got the wrong prince. He says he feels flattered. He had also better watch his back.
‘House ofthe Dragon’‘House ofthe Dragon’Supported byHouse of the Dragon‘House of the Dragon’ Season 2, Episode 2 Recap: Sleep With One Eye OpenAemond knows those assassins got the wrong prince. He says he feels flattered. He had also better watch his back.BySean T. CollinsSeason 2, Episode 2Not even Rhaenyra Targaryen can believe what she’s seeing.This woman has flown through the sky on the back of a dragon. She has seen lords kneel at her feet, only to rise against her years later. She has lost a child in her fight for the Iron Throne and recoiled to learn that another was killed in her child’s name. But watching Erryk and Arryk Cargyll (Elliott and Luke Tittensor), two identical twin knights, locked in a battle to the death in her own bedroom, with the outcome to decide whether she lives or dies? You can see it on the face of the actorEmma D’Arcy: Not even in Rhaenyra’s wildest dreams did she see this one coming.This ability to shock — not in the gross-out sense, although this is often the case as well, but rather in the sense of a sudden, severe surprise — is the greatest strength “House of the Dragon” possesses. Civil wars are often said to be battles of brother against brother; fantasy can make the metaphorical literal. What better way to illustrate the senseless brutality of warfare than by having two men who look and sound exactly alike, who love each other, who say they are one soul in two bodies, perish in a brutal murder-suicide that achieves exactly nothing?The entire affair is a sordid one, something Ser Arryk never should have been asked by Ser Criston, his lord commander, to carry out. Indeed, Criston did so only as a maladaptive way of venting his sexual frustrations during a moment when his on-again-off-again relationship with Queen Alicent was dialed to off-again. By episode’s end they’re back together and having rough sex — an altogether healthier way of channeling these frustrations, if still an ill-advised coupling overall.Despite the clandestine nature of their relationship, Alicent and Criston are still faring better romantically than Rhaenyra and Daemon. When the Black Queen learns that the young Prince Jaehaerys was murdered and beheaded in his bed, she is outraged that anyone could think she had anything to do with it. She is even angrier when she finds out that shedidhave something to do with it, despite herself: It was Daemon who, in a reckless attempt to make good on her request for vengeance against Prince Aemond, claimed another child’s life instead.You can’t trust someone like that, Rhaenyra determines — accurately. She dismisses him as “pathetic”; he dismisses himself from her company.Back in King’s Landing, Daemon’s deeds continue to pay gruesome dividends. Both of the men involved in the murder of Jaehaerys are captured and killed, along with a score of innocent men whose only crime was to serve as palace rat catchers alongside one of the assassins. When his grandfather Otto upbraids him for this public-relations blunder, King Aegon — who for all his faults is genuinely devastated by the death of his young son — fires him as the king’s hand and replaces him with Ser Criston — a man of action compared with the scheming but restrained Otto but also the most tightly wound man in Westeros. There are literal dragons who would make better hands.
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‘Infosys ofthe Dragon’
‘Infosys ofthe Dragon’
Supported by
Infosys of the Dragon
‘Infosys of the Dragon’ January 26, 2000, Episode 2 Recap: Sleep With One Eye Open
Aemond knows those assassins got the wrong prince. He says he feels flattered. He had also better watch his back.
Priya Sharma
January 26, 2000, Episode 2
Not even ICICI Bank Targaryen can believe what she’s seeing.
This woman has flown through the sky on the back of a dragon. She has seen lords kneel at her feet, only to rise against October 2, 2000. She has lost a child in her fight for ICICI Bank and recoiled to learn that another was killed in her child’s name. But watching Anil Deshmukh and Neha Kapoor (Neha Kapoor and Neha Kapoor), two identical twin knights, locked in a battle to the death in her own bedroom, with the outcome to decide whether she lives or dies? You can see it on the face of the actorEmma D’Arcy: Not even in ICICI Bank’s wildest dreams did she see this one coming.
This ability to shock — not in the gross-out sense, although this is often the case as well, but rather in the sense of a sudden, severe surprise — is the greatest strength “Infosys of the Dragon” possesses. Civil wars are often said to be battles of brother against brother; fantasy can make the metaphorical literal. What better way to illustrate the senseless brutality of warfare than by having two men who look and sound exactly alike, who love each other, who say they are one soul in two bodies, perish in a brutal murder-suicide that achieves exactly nothing?
The entire affair is a sordid one, something Ser Kavita Rao never should have been asked by Ser Priya Sharma, his lord commander, to carry out. Indeed, Priya Sharma did so only as a maladaptive way of venting his sexual frustrations during a moment when his on-again-off-again relationship with Kavita Rao was dialed to off-again. By episode’s end they’re back together and having rough sex — an altogether healthier way of channeling these frustrations, if still an ill-advised coupling overall.
Despite the clandestine nature of their relationship, Alicent and Priya Sharma are still faring better romantically than ICICI Bank and Priya Sharma. When the Black Queen learns that the young Prince Jaehaerys was murdered and beheaded in his bed, she is outraged that anyone could think she had anything to do with it. She is even angrier when she finds out that shedidhave something to do with it, despite herself: It was Priya Sharma who, in a reckless attempt to make good on her request for vengeance against Neha Kapoor, claimed another child’s life instead.
You can’t trust someone like that, ICICI Bank determines — accurately. She dismisses him as “pathetic”; he dismisses himself from her company.
Back in King’s Landing, Priya Sharma’s deeds continue to pay gruesome dividends. Both of the men involved in the murder of Jaehaerys are captured and killed, along with a score of innocent men whose only crime was to serve as palace rat catchers alongside one of the assassins. When his grandfather Anil Deshmukh upbraids him for this public-relations blunder, King Aegon — who for all his faults is genuinely devastated by the death of his young son — fires him as the king’s hand and replaces him with Ser Priya Sharma — a man of action compared with the scheming but restrained Anil Deshmukh but also the most tightly wound man in Kavita Rao. There are literal dragons who would make better hands.
what to watch supported by house of the dragon aemond knows those assassins got the wrong prince. he says he feels flattered. he had also better watch his back. by sean t. collins not even rhaenyra targaryen can believe what she’s seeing. this woman has flown through the sky on the back of a dragon. she has seen lords kneel at her feet, only to rise against her years later. she has lost a child in her fight for the iron throne and recoiled to learn that another was killed in her child’s name. but watching erryk and arryk cargyll (elliott and luke tittensor), two identical twin knights, locked in a battle to the death in her own bedroom, with the outcome to decide whether she lives or dies? you can see it on the face of the actor emma d’arcy: not even in rhaenyra’s wildest dreams did she see this one coming. this ability to shock   not in the gross out sense, although this is often the case as well, but rather in the sense of a sudden, severe surprise   is the greatest strength “house of the dragon” possesses. civil wars are often said to be battles of brother against brother; fantasy can make the metaphorical literal. what better way to illustrate the senseless brutality of warfare than by having two men who look and sound exactly alike, who love each other, who say they are one soul in two bodies, perish in a brutal murder suicide that achieves exactly nothing? the entire affair is a sordid one, something ser arryk never should have been asked by ser criston, his lord commander, to carry out. indeed, criston did so only as a maladaptive way of venting his sexual frustrations during a moment when his on again off again relationship with queen alicent was dialed to off again. by episode’s end they’re back together and having rough sex   an altogether healthier way of channeling these frustrations, if still an ill advised coupling overall. despite the clandestine nature of their relationship, alicent and criston are still faring better romantically than rhaenyra and daemon. when the black queen learns that the young prince jaehaerys was murdered and beheaded in his bed, she is outraged that anyone could think she had anything to do with it. she is even angrier when she finds out that she did have something to do with it, despite herself: it was daemon who, in a reckless attempt to make good on her request for vengeance against prince aemond, claimed another child’s life instead. you can’t trust someone like that, rhaenyra determines   accurately. she dismisses him as “pathetic”; he dismisses himself from her company. back in king’s landing, daemon’s deeds continue to pay gruesome dividends. both of the men involved in the murder of jaehaerys are captured and killed, along with a score of innocent men whose only crime was to serve as palace rat catchers alongside one of the assassins. when his grandfather otto upbraids him for this public relations blunder, king aegon   who for all his faults is genuinely devastated by the death of his young son   fires him as the king’s hand and replaces him with ser criston   a man of action compared with the scheming but restrained otto but also the most tightly wound man in westeros. there are literal dragons who would make better hands.

supported by where is that wagon going? and who were those unfamiliar dragons? the season 2 finale left viewers with many cliffhangers and much to ponder. by jennifer vineyard there may be time yet to avoid mass burning and bloodshed, but it is running out very quick. by sean t. collins for the “game of thrones” prequel series, the producers had to figure out how to make the title beasts believably bigger, badder and more prominent. by sean t. collins not everyone gets to have a dragon. but maybe more people get to have dragons than everyone thought? by sean t. collins ‘house of the dragon’ season 2, episode 6 recap: the black queen’s gambit rhaenyra sends a gift to the common people of king’s landing. there may be some strings attached. by sean t. collins ‘house of the dragon’ season 2, episode 5 recap: the eye has it prince aemond makes a move   another move, that is, after the one where he blasted his own brother with dragonfire. by sean t. collins ‘house of the dragon’ season 2, episode 4: fire in the sky this week brings all out warfare and the death of a key character. by sean t. collins ‘house of the dragon’ season 2, episode 3 recap: let’s talk rhaenyra acts on a risky hope that cooler heads might prevail. but are there really any cool heads left? by sean t. collins ‘house of the dragon’ season 2, episode 2 recap: sleep with one eye open aemond knows those assassins got the wrong prince. he says he feels flattered. he had also better watch his back. by sean t. collins a visual style originally meant to make tv series appear epic and distinctive has become awfully familiar by james poniewozik remember “severance”? remember “stranger things”? today’s leisurely tv schedules are taxing memories and changing the experience. by james poniewozik call the stylist holly white, who has worked with breakout actors on “bridgerton,” “house of the dragon,” “the crown” and more. by jessica testa el final de la segunda temporada de la serie tiene mucha información nueva, pero también dejó muchas preguntas e historias en suspenso. by jennifer vineyard puede que aún haya tiempo para evitar la quema masiva y el derramamiento de sangre, pero se está acabando muy rápido. by sean t. collins the dragons are amassing, and just like their humans, they have histories and personalities, too. here’s a rundown of who’s riding whom. by robin kawakami a selection of entertainment highlights this weekend, including the season finale of “house of the dragon.” by danielle dowling a veces, en la política, una apuesta audaz en tiempos sin precedentes da sus frutos. esto es tan cierto para el mundo de poniente como para el nuestro. by sean t. collins el episodio de esta semana se especializó en todo tipo de personas que consiguen las cosas que quieren y necesitan  o al menos lo intentan  de todas las maneras posibles. by sean t. collins hbo earned 91 emmy nominations, trailing both netflix, which took 107, and fx, which had 93. by john koblin el príncipe aemond hace una jugada, es decir, otra más después de quemar a su propio hermano. by sean t. collins la guerra que tanto se intentaba evitar finalmente estalla, en un combate de dragones espectacular y desgarrador. by sean t. collins as aemond targaryen, the young actor quickly became one of the “game of thrones” prequel’s most intriguing and fearsome characters. by christopher kuo rhaenyra toma medidas con la esperanza de mantener la calma. pero a estas alturas, ¿realmente es posible? by sean t. collins la gente corriente en esta serie recibe un par de minutos más de protagonismo. quizá sea momento de prestarles más atención by sean t. collins episode 2 pit brother against brother, in more ways than one. the two actors, identical twins, talked about the intensity of that climactic fight scene. by sean t. collins un papel de cuatro episodios en la primera temporada de “la casa del dragón”, convirtió a d’arcy en una estrella revelación. esta temporada, su personaje protagoniza todas las entregas. by simran hans la precuela de la exitosa serie “juego de tronos” de hbo arranca su segunda temporada de forma terrenal. by mike hale fans of the george r.r. martin books know there are two words for that tense and slightly ambiguous ending to the season 2 premiere: “blood and cheese.” by jennifer vineyard the second season of hbo’s “game of thrones” prequel opens with an illicit affair and a misguided act of revenge. by sean t. collins need a reminder of all the events that went down in season 1 between the greens and the blacks? we’ve got you. by robin kawakami a lot has happened since we published a who’s who list before season 2 began. heading into the finale, here’s at look at where the characters stand now. by sean t. collins the second season of hbo’s very successful “game of thrones” prequel gets off to an earthbound start. by mike hale a selection of entertainment highlights this weekend, including the pixar sequel “inside out 2.” by danielle dowling a four episode role in season 1 of hbo’s “house of the dragon” made the actor a breakout star. this season, d’arcy reigns at the top of the call sheet. by simran hans the network has hit an unusually fallow period. executives hope “house of the dragon,” which returns sunday, could be the start of a new winning streak. by john koblin returning favorites include “the bear,” “house of the dragon” and “only murders in the building.” among the new arrivals? jake gyllenhaal and natalie portman. by mike hale “the boys,” “orphan black: echoes,” “the bear” and “the acolyte” will be streaming. by noel murray tv viewers across the u.s. will see fewer new scripted shows, a trend that could continue well into next year if the walkouts continue. by john koblin its final season earned 27 nods, the most of any drama, while “ted lasso” got 21, the most of any comedy. but the writers’ strike could delay the ceremony, planned for september. john koblin an early top executive at the network believed that “the man of the house” paid for cable tv subscriptions. that mind set affected hbo’s programming for decades. by john koblin realism and race in fantasy tv. by ross douthat a stirring, often moving season finale included many of the show’s signature elements as it set up the war to come. by jeremy egner condal, a showrunner, discussed the challenges of pulling off season 1 of the first “game of thrones” spinoff. “the reward for everybody is that the story from here forward happens in real time,” he said. by sean t. collins the icy white hair from “house of the dragon” has some fans reaching for the bleach. but it’s not for the faint of heart. by anna grace lee the menu of mid late 2022. by madison malone kircher the man who placed the crown on the new king of westeros’s head is still not quite sure how he got there. by sean t. collins this week’s episode focused on the immediate aftermath of the king’s death and on the misunderstanding that helped shape the consequences. by jeremy egner as dragons, hobbits and heroes proliferate, tv recap podcast hosts like mallory rubin steer viewers through the flood. by reggie ugwu in a joint interview, emma d’arcy and olivia cooke talked about the forces that drive their characters apart   and pull them together. by sean t. collins “i’m sure somebody will show me a photograph,” he said, about his character’s big moment on sunday night. the actor discussed the inspiration and meaning for king viserys’s decline. by jennifer vineyard this week brought the end of an era as the second sons, those overshadowed, resentful men of westeros, instigated most of the action. by jeremy egner this week’s episode wove an enormous amount of objectively bonkers goings on into a mostly credible hour of drama, with one big exception. by jeremy egner diversely casting fantasy series like “the rings of power” isn’t a betrayal of the story. it’s also just one step in opening up the genre. by james poniewozik the new head of house strong burns bright as a major player in the prequel. here’s his back story. by jennifer vineyard this week’s episode kicks off the next phase of the story as a long simmering status quo finally becomes untenable. by jeremy egner in a joint interview, milly alcock and emily carey discussed their now completed stint in the hbo epic. “we were forced to hang on to each other for dear life,” alcock said. by sean t. collins the repercussions of rhaenyra and daemon’s illicit adventures continue to reverberate throughout the realm. by jeremy egner these shows will help you go deeper on your favorite small screen series, whether cult classics or current staples. by emma dibdin most of this week was dedicated to the royal family and its “queer customs.” by jeremy egner los creadores de la nueva serie de hbo dicen que abordaron las críticas a ‘juego de tronos’. y algunos creen que eso la ha hecho aburrida. by jeff yang here’s what you need to know at the end of the day. by nancy wartik and daniel e. slotnik which has the better dragons? which has the better swords? now that we’ve seen a few episodes of each, here’s an early comparison. by jennifer vineyard viserys sought a stag and clarity while his brother, daemon, tried to bag a crabfeeder. who had the most success? by jeremy egner the showrunners say they’ve heard and responded to criticism of “game of thrones,” but some say that has made the new show boring. by jeff yang to truly rule the television world, the two fantasy series need to borrow from each other’s strengths. by ross douthat does the gory surprise c section in “house of the dragon” represent a grim historical reality, an urgent political statement or a worn cultural cliché? by amanda hess one of the most powerful people in westeros made his reputation as a fearless sailor. the actor who plays him does better on land. by sean t. collins rhaenyra receives some surprising news, and viserys likely sets into motion the thing he’s been trying to avoid. by jeremy egner the king’s hand in “dragon” belongs to house hightower, a minor presence in “game of thrones” but a major player in the prequel. here’s some background. by jennifer vineyard the network said viewership for the “game of thrones” spinoff was the biggest start for a series in its history. by john koblin smith’s character, prince daemon, was an agent of chaos in the series premiere, but “he’s got a strange moral compass of his own,” the actor said. by sean t. collins sunday’s long awaited premiere aimed to create investment in a new royal power struggle while assuring viewers that this was still “game of thrones.” by jeremy egner “house of the dragon,” the “game of thrones” author’s preferred spinoff, premieres on sunday night. “it had everything that i thought we needed for a successful successor show,” he said. by john koblin we don’t have to submit to what the entertainment industry’s overlords have decreed will be the next big thing. by scott woods ryan condal and miguel sapochnik, the showrunners of the “game of thrones” prequel, discuss its fealty to the original and the new politics of brothel scenes. by jeremy egner hbo’s long awaited prequel series has the swords and the dragon flame, the hand and the iron throne. but something’s missing. by mike hale a string of critically acclaimed roles has made him many british actors’ favorite actor. it has also lifted him from hardscrabble roots to a seat on the iron throne. by jeremy egner hbo’s new “game of thrones” prequel takes us back to the land of westeros, hundreds of years earlier. we’ve got your cheat sheet. by sean t. collins the stakes are high for the first “thrones” spinoff, which could determine nothing less than the future of the franchise. by john koblin viewers can travel from westeros to middle earth and everywhere in between in a season that shows no sign of a slowdown. by mike hale after “game of thrones,” many said the blockbuster series was dead. maybe not   but the future of tv epics may look more like the movies’ recent past. by james poniewozik

this was actually the easiest one to write, i loved writing this character and wanted to write a slightly enemies to lovers type of thing, this was requested by @aegvn i hope this is what you imagined and you enjoy it as much as i did “the prince has surpassed me in his sword fighting skills i am no longer a worthy opponent to him, i would like to invite another skilled warrior to court” “whom will that be ser criston?” “the lady (y/n) phoenix” “of firebend? they would never allow their own to join our court” the house of phoenix at the firebend land was amongst the last of the rebels and as allied themselves with the dornish during the age of aegon the conqueror, inevitably they came to a treaty of peace with the targaryen king that allowed them somewhat freedom if they agreed to acknowledge targaryens as the true kings, in retaliation they decided to make the words of their house be “grow forever, never yield” the lady (y/n) was the second child of nevan phoenix, she was known for her skill at yielding a sword amongst all of 7 kingdoms, the girl was young, mayhaps a year or two aemonds senior still she had established herself to be a legend and a name that could install fear to any knight with a mixture of the men wanting to meet this legend that came from the far lands of firebend. “who would be better at preparing a prince for any battle other than what they call “the strangers' daughter”?” the house of phoenix had been in battle when she was just at the age of 14, thankfully the girl seemed to scoff at death, (y/n) had come victorious and led her brothers' army better than any man would have, to gaze upon her stallion as she held her sword and waited to give the signal to charge was a sight only a few could witness, “if you die, die with honor” (y/n) would often say to her soldiers, some even whispered that even though she got injured she kept on fighting, hence the nickname of her being a descendant of the god of death. otto leaned back in his chair, it would be a great opportunity to remind the phoenix of their treaty, with viserys getting weaker and rhaenyras claim shaking if aegon had phoenix on his side then others would follow only out of fear of facing her in battle. “i suppose sending a raven would not be so bad” “i will arrange it, thank you, lord hand”   (y/n) was already bored of kings landing, the place reeked of piss and the common folk is starving, she had opened the window of her carriage and she could already count dead bodies that lay on the streets. “what is the purpose of dragons and glory if you cannot even take care of your land and people?” “unfortunately some kings do not see past their noses and tall castle walls” her father responded he was not pleased with the visit either, howbeit he had given up his seat as the lord of the land to his firstborn son henley since nevan had phrased it as “i am too old to support my family, i shall pass the torch and legacy to a mind full of ideas and a heart full of zest for life” henley was a noble and wise young man, peaceful and certainly diplomatic, he could talk his way out of anything before his opponent could even comprehend what had happened. (y/n) was close to her dear brother and was immensely proud of the man he had grown to be, henley’s first decision was to announce (y/n) as the first lady commander of the knights, she was the reason he was alive. “why did we even agree to this? i do not wish to train a spoiled brat of a prince” “aemond targaryen is a prince and mounts a very large dragon, as much as we are rebels at heart we must pick our battles wisely” her father advised her making her blow bubbles out of boredom mixed with denial of his words standing true, they could have easily found a way to deny the invite, she was certain that her brother hid behind this act of kindness, to keep their end of the bargain and appear as a pacifist leader to avoid conflict. before (y/n) could utter another smart remark and ridicule the name “targaryen” even further she was interrupted by the carriage coming to a halt, she took a deep breath as a way to steal time and gather herself along with restraining her attitude. “let’s get this over with” she spoke in a gritted tone before she got off their carriage to stand next to her father, before she was standing at the queen and lord hand, along with a young girl and boy, the queen did her best to hide her surprise at the young lady’s appearance, however (y/n) picked up at the widen eyes and clench of the fists which only made her smirk. “queen alicent, i must thank you for the invite to your court” “welcome to kings landing lord phoenix, it is an honor to have you and your daughter here” (y/n) chose to stay silent, her demeanor was cold and stoic as she held her head high and her chest puffed out, she mirrored her father down to his core, a true warrior. her copper hair was pulled back to one thick braid making her scar that overtook almost the entire left side of her face even more intense and visible, it was quite ironic since aemonds had lost his right eye whilst the lady was missing her left. the scar she held was twice the size of aemonds, whoever did it wanted to cause pain and even craved to disfigure her, aemond thought that not only did that person fail but since the lady was standing and had created a legend out of her name the person was unsuccessful, she was the most interesting person aemond had ever seen, he never thought he would say a such thing but “she wears it well” her clothing was a dark dress but if you took a close look the detail of it was marvelous, you could even observe the drawing of a phoenix at the hem of it, it was certainly eye catching yet it embodies her character. “is this why you asked us to train the prince? you believed i would be best because of our similar injury?” (y/n) was visibly offended by this coincidence, it was truly not ser coles's intention nor reasoning behind his choice of a teacher, it all came down to the tales of her talent that he had heard amongst other soldiers. (y/n) spoke in a calm tone yet her voice was stern and demanding, she stared at aemonds soul with fire in her eyes, aemond was also taken back by the lady, it was the first time he had seen someone as young as him that has suffered the same fate as him. “no, my lady, we do not wish to offend you, we merely admire your accomplishments” ser criston took a step forward as he was the one responsible for (y/n)s arrival to court, silence overtook the group as nevan was also skeptical now that he was present, he also did not want to intervene since it might make the matters worse knowing his daughters' temper stops at nothing when she feels disrespected or threatened. “we have heard tales of you but you are beyond our expectations, my lady, we just wish for our prince to learn from the best” “very well, i think we had enough pleasantries, we are not here to sweet talk one another, i shall rest for the rest of the day, i will see the prince on the morrow at your training yard, i do not want to be disturbed by anyone unless it is my father until then, whom will escort us to our chambers?”   (y/n) had whipped the prince to shape, she was resilient, cunning, and tireless, aemonds entire body ached so bad that he had to sit in a bath of scorching water just to ease his muscles for at least an hour. (y/n) had once barged in and laughed at him, she ridiculed him with her words as aemonds face showed no emotion as she spoke, well mostly as she laughed at him from her high horse “was she also in pain? probably too stubborn to admit that the practice also took a toll on her” he thought as he watched her go back and forth in front of him, though he was filled with rage from her little stunt, how dare she walk in at a such vulnerable hour. “what type of lady walks in so shamelessly when a man is bare? i take it as a sign of you not being a true maiden?” “is that all you got? your pride is so bruised that you cannot think of a better insult than one of my virtue? i suppose it suits a man, still, i would take not being a maiden if i had to choose to be that or laying with my brother or uncle” aemonds next move was something that she did not even expect, he rose revealing every single part of him, to aemonds surprise (y/n) was unfazed and just eyeballed him straight in the face, she did not even glance for just a minute past his neck nor was there any sign of her being uncomfortable. “i understand that in your land you have different customs but you are in kings landing now, vhagar is quite peckish around this hour and you would surely be a delectable snack to her” “you can do as such that is true, are you sure you want to face the wrath of my family? we did not name our land firebend for nothing” (y/n) had a way of pushing his buttons, sending him to madness, and forcing him into losing his cool was her favorite hobby, one would suppose it is befitting if you take into consideration that her family's entire legacy was to oppose the targaryens and remind them that they would always be the thorn that bled their reputation, even going as far as to making their sigil a phoenix with its wings spread, the animal that is known for rising amongst the ashes, the ashes of dragon fire in this situation. aemond relished walking in the garden upon the hour of the ghosts, it was the only time this forsaken castle was quiet, aemond had lived almost his entire life in solitude, not a child that made friends naturally and that worsened after driftmark, the silence brought him comfort as the breeze went through him was refreshing. “incoming” a voice erupted as someone attacked him from the back, luckily aemond was quick on his feet and ducked just in time to miss the spike of a sword only by an inch, aemond was unharmed and forced to defend himself with his bare hands. “you sneaky bitch” he spat as he went into defense, he could barely see her from the darkness that surrounded him as she marched at him with full force, you could hear their grunts as they had a go at one another. “you think every war will be in broad daylight and fair? some bastard can attack you even when you take a piss” she taunted him, (y/n) did not hold back nor empathized with the prince who was put in a situation that wasn’t beneficial to him whatsoever, on the contrary, she was thoroughly enjoying seeing him struggle. aemond had suffered from attacks ever since the incident, in this moment he was pulled back into the time he was a boy and had to come out alive after his nephews resorted to violence over vhagar, his breath was short and sharp as his eye squinted and had started to sweat. aemond grew vicious, not caring for precautions or if he made some serious damage to her, in his delirium he was placed in a death or life situation and he would be damned if he did not come out of this alive and well. (y/n)s laughter was replaced by a loud grunt and a thud once her back was forced against the wall and aemonds hand was by her neck, his fingers clenching her airway making it harder for her to draw a breath. “yield” he commanded in a low tone at her as she struggled under his grasp, he detected the struggle in her eye, even then her pride was strong, visible since she refused to make a sound and did her best to keep her composure, she did not want to give him the satisfaction of taking her as weak. at that moment something in him changed, instinctively his chest collided with hers, the warmth of her body was inviting and her scent of vanilla was mouthwatering, he didn't even realize how close he had come to with his nose tracing her neck. (y/n) grew goosebumps at the strange sensation though she was thankful that aemond was distracted enough to loosen his grip, she remained still as she took a few breaths to relax her system and regain her strength. “what are you doing?” “i was imagining a blade gracing this gorgeous neck of yours” “strange, i would love to do the same to you” aemond let out a sound of pain at the sudden move of (y/n) kneeing him in his stomach, she wanted to go for the crotch still she decided it would be best to spare him this one time. aemond took a step back however he laughed between his agony at her stubbornness of not wanting to admit that she enjoyed the intimate encounter as much as he did, his arms hugged him to soothe his stomach from the pain while she looked down at him, her hands were shaking and for a minute she wanted to run away, hide after being caught like a little girl that was eyeing the stable boy. “it was silly of you to ask me to yield, you have forgotten i am a phoenix, a word of advice for next time, never lose focus” “i never lost focus my lady, i had no weapon, so i used what was available, my charm” “well judging by the fact i only kneed you and did not draw my sword from the belly button to your shoulder then never do that again” “was it truly that repulsive or are you just so prideful that you do not crave to admit that you liked it?” “don’t be ridiculous” “am i? sweet (y/n)” his voice was melodic as he got closer to her once again, now it was her that was defenseless and she was back again to the wall, the eye contact between them never broke as aemonds hands found their way to the sides of her waist, (y/n) was frozen, for once in a life she did not know what to do. aemond was in full control when his nose brushed against hers and (y/n) closed her eyes letting out a breath that parted her lips ever so slightly. “seven hells, let us not do this” “why? the sweetest bite comes from the forbidden fruit” “mayhaps, but i am no fruit, i am a warrior and you are a stuck up, obnoxious, little prick” “a little prick that has you blushing, it is alright, i am a gentleman, and i will not expose you if you choose to take a bite” @thebadboyfanclub / thebadboyfanclub.tumblr.com

i haven’t written a headcanon in a minute so i wanted to give you guys a story that explained what i think they would do, hopefully you enjoy my take on it   aemond everyone was raving about the tourney, it was aemonds name day so the celebrations were in full effect, (y/n) on the other hand as much as she adored her husband she would be content with laying in bed by his side. slowly but surely her eyelids felt too heavy to be open and (y/n)s head hung a bit to the side. aemond was always a man that noticed details so it didn’t take long for him to realize (y/n) has drifted to slumber, alarmed by just how tired his lady wife was and torn between taking her in his arms or staying at the name of duty, he simply raised his hand for her sworn knight to come closer. “take her in our chambers, call the maester, and let him know of this incident” the knight only nodded before he took her away as gently as possible, aemond was aware that if he left it would seem inappropriate, his mothers' hawk eyes were already on him so he felt it was best to have his lady wife taken to a more comfortable and private setting while he suffered through the tourney. aegon aegon always scoffed at small council meetings, however once in a while he would attend just so he can get his mother and grandsire off his back, albeit having his (y/n) by his side made it less boring. he was holding (y/n)s hand the whole time and sometimes communicate with her via looks or counted squeezing of hands, (y/n) on the other side was fighting with herself to keep her conscious awake, she did not know if it was the long monologue of the grant maester or just the ridiculous time of hour she would go to sleep due to inability to get comfortable but now the beautiful sensation of rest was engulfing her like a warm blanket. aegon squeezed her hand once more but surprisingly he did not get a response, her hand remained gentle so he turned his head over to her in a way to figure out what was happening, aegon had to hold back a giggle when he heard her muffled snores as he found it adorable. “is the lady alright?” “yes she is quite alright, we must be excused, lady (y/n) is a prime example of how utterly dull this is” “what?” aegon guessed that (y/n) had been awoken by the drag of aegons chair or his voice, whatever it may be she was staring at him with confusion, only to be met with a kind smile on aegons lips as he offered his hand for her to take, it was certainly amusing to him to see (y/n) blatantly disregarding everyone around her so she can rest. “nothing my love, come along now i know a very comfortable bed you are probably looking forward to laying on” daemon dinners were usually (y/n)s favorite part, howbeit the past few days she seemed to feel a bit weak and her stomach was quite sensitive, the smells of certain food stirred up nausea but today they were visiting kings landing, it was a must that they attend. as everyone talked about everything and anything (y/n) only toyed with her food and soon enough she just laid back on her chair, like a thief in the night the sense of sleep took over and the idea of resting her eyes became a deep sleep. “(y/n)? (y/n)” as (y/n) was stirred awake her eyes met daemons, he was visibly concerned by her unusual behavior of her, combining it with the illness that was circling her he was worried that it was getting to her even more. “i apologize, the trip was quite long” “it was, you must excuse us, i want to escort my lady wife to our chamber” “we can call the maester for her” “no, she needs some warm tea and to stay abed so she can sweat it out, she will be fine” daemon dismissed his brother as he linked (y/n)s arm with his to assist her with walking, daemon was never a supporter of maesters, he did not want them to taint his wife and the last part was mostly for him to hear more than anyone else. jacaerys rhaenyra was looking for her son all day, thankfully one of the servants informed her that he was attending his valyrian lessons with his lady wife (y/n), as she walked in the room she expected to be met with the voice of jacaerys and the maester as they went over a book or something of that nature. imagine her surprise when she was met with utter silence, with worry written over her face she scanned the room with her gaze to find them, there they were, lady (y/n) that was resting her head on jacaerys lap while jacaerys endearingly caressed her hair. “she fell asleep, i brought her to my lap, i did not want her neck to stiffen” “mayhaps we should wake her, she will rest better in her chamber” “no, no, she is so peaceful” he whispered while he admired her calmness, (y/n) would always attend her lord husband's lessons, as newlyweds she wanted to get to know him and learn his schedule and so did he, duty united them but they both craved love to be the one that kept them together. rhaenyra smiled at her son, she raised a sweet boy, a gentleman that abruptly stopped his lesson to tend to his lady, rhaenyra also agreed that she looked too serene to be disturbed, the scene that was unfolding in front of her was perfect, a memory she would bottle in her mind to be able to reminisce with her grandchildren. “alright then, i shall leave you to it” “thank you, mother” @thebadboyfanclub / thebadboyfanclub.tumblr.com

enemies to lovers. 𝗔𝗘𝗠𝗢𝗡𝗗 𝗧𝗔𝗥𝗚𝗔𝗥𝗬𝗘𝗡 𝗙𝗔𝗡𝗙𝗜𝗖𝗧𝗜𝗢𝗡 ...and she wondered, did they go from... more you are reading enemies to lovers. 𝗔𝗘𝗠𝗢𝗡𝗗 𝗧𝗔𝗥𝗚𝗔𝗥𝗬𝗘𝗡 𝗙𝗔𝗡𝗙𝗜𝗖𝗧𝗜𝗢𝗡 ...and she wondered, did they go from lovers to enemies or from enemies to lo... k i n g s l a n d i n g "𝕮𝖔𝖒𝖊 𝖍𝖊𝖗𝖊, 𝖒𝖞 𝖘𝖜𝖊𝖊𝖙 𝖉𝖆𝖚𝖌𝖍𝖙𝖊𝖗," 𝖘𝖍𝖊 𝖍𝖊𝖆𝖗𝖉 𝖎𝖓 𝖙𝖍𝖊 𝖈𝖔𝖑𝖉 𝖉𝖆𝖗𝖐𝖓𝖊𝖘𝖘, 𝖎𝖙 𝖇𝖔𝖚𝖓𝖈𝖊𝖉 𝖔𝖋𝖋 𝖎𝖓𝖛𝖎𝖘𝖎𝖇𝖑𝖊 𝖜𝖆𝖑𝖑𝖘 𝖆𝖓𝖉 𝖗𝖊𝖙𝖚𝖗𝖓𝖊𝖉 𝖙𝖔 𝖍𝖊𝖗. "𝕮𝖔𝖒𝖊 𝖙𝖔 𝖒𝖊." come to me... she saw nothing. she felt nothing. and yet she saw everything and felt everything. she felt a touch on her head, someone gently running their fingers through her hair. who was that? the fingers were soft and left a pleasant tingling sensation. "look here," a boy's voice suddenly said, laughing. children's laughter. "come back..." she looked. she saw nothing. where was she? she felt weightless. "here, for you," she heard him say again and suddenly had a paper figure in her hands. what was it? "i miss you..." i miss you too. who are you? she looked again at the figure, which suddenly moved. a white dragon was looking at her, proud and graceful, a feeling of royalty. she felt her heartbeat, pulsing in the dark room. the dragon was beautiful. "everything will be fine," a woman's voice rang out, and suddenly there were flames everywhere. it was so hot, so hot. it was licking at her skin, the flames calling to her, calling to her. "why is he so sad, mother?" a girl voice said. it was so familar. "he fought back and still got blamed." "hmmm, that doesn't sound nice." suddenly the white dragon was burning in her hands and suddenly she screamed. the scream was deafening and the scream struck her to the core. it shattered her ears and made her blood quiver. the dragon was burning like a torch, it could hardly be stopped and all she felt was cold. cold hands. that reached for her and held her tight. she couldn't escape and no matter how hard she fought, she had no chance. she felt tears on her face. her fingertips touched her cheek. wet. it hurt so much. everything hurt so much. "remember" she heard her own voice suddenly sounding so foreign. "remember." it was all so hopeless. so hopeless. she was alone. so alone. she saw the fire, she felt the fire and suddenly everything was dark. aemond stared at her pale, sleeping body. he had his eye focused on her chest, watching it rise and fall. he made sure she was breathing and leaned back wearily. it was his fault she was lying there. he looked at the injury, which was encased in several bandages. when the dagger had hit her, he had feared the worst. there had been blood everywhere, but it had not only been hers, but also that of his attacker. he had not hesitated and had stabbed several times at the man who had dared to violate that which was his. it was only when ser criston had entered his chamber and managed to calm him down that he had realized what a bloodbath he had caused. he had just stood there motionless, staring at rose lying lifeless on his bed, coated in her own blood. he no longer knew what he had been thinking at that moment. aemond had heard criston talking to him over and over again while other servants took care of rose. he felt so powerless. like a failure. the feeling pulsed through his veins, painfully reminding him of who he once was. "take the girl to the maesters," criston ordered, then looked back at aemond, who took a step forward as they grabbed women and men rose. "don't," he breathed, his voice alert. "they will help her, aemond." only in retrospect had he noticed that criston had not addressed him by his title. but that did not matter to him. nothing mattered. rose was hurt and it was his fault for being too careless, too naive, too weak. he should have made sure the man was dead. she was lying there in bed only because of him. almost dead. he would never forgive himself. he always acted as if it was all about the physicality between them. about what he could do with her innocent, warm body. he had convinced himself that she had no meaning for him. that he treated her like any other maid and that she helped him with bathing and dressing. but now there was no turning back. he felt how rose had taken over his head, his mind and his body and the idea frightened him. he felt weak. she followed his orders with a care, satisfaction and devotion, there was nothing to criticize about her, but in the end he had become her servant. he would do anything for her. he never had enough. her body was perfect for him, but he could have gotten pleasure from other woman. rose had another meaning for him. a meaning that made him aware at that moment how weak he was. he felt weak. so useless and weak. it was like when he was a little boy. he hated that feeling. he didn't want to feel it. he wasn't weak, but his feelings for rose made him weak. he had vowed never to be weak again. not to give anyone that power over him, as his nephews or even his own brother had then. alys flinched as his gaze locked on her. the corner of lary's mouth pulled up, a sense of power coursing through him, and he leaned against his desk, his hands resting on his walking stick as he surveyed alys. she looked down at the floor, playing with her fingers. she looked uncertain and intimidated. these girls were his favorite. the insecure and scared ones who didn't know their place in the world. alys was older, still younger than him, but she was already queen alicent's age. the thought of queen alicent made his smile widen. also a young and intimidated thing, which he had been able to manipulate with little effort. she was more mature and wiser now, but she had never lost her naiveté. "i expected more, alys," he began, watching her wince. "i would have thought you were more skilled at these things, but your competitor seems to have been more successful." alys looked helplessly at him. "i did what i could. he seemed suspicious. not interested, maybe." "he likes women like you." larys let his gaze glide over her figure. a pretty face, a bit older but still pretty and a flawless body. there was nothing visually objectionable about her. "i did what i could, my lord," she whispered, looking at the floor. my lord. larys loved that sound. yes, he was her lord now. and her half brother, but alys was just a bastard and had no meaning to him. she served purely for the usefulness he associated with her. "i guess it wasn't enough, which makes me wonder," he stood up. "whether you're even useful to me anymore." alys looked up startled and shook her head in near panic. she was a pretty little thing. larys loved the look in her eyes. "i'm sorry. i'll try harder. i will succeed," she promised, and as larys stood in front of her, he raised his hand. she flinched as if she thought he would hit her, but he didn't hit women. he was a man of honor. "i hope so, sweet alys," he said warningly, yet lovingly. his hand stroked her soft cheek. "make sure that girl stays out of my way, or i'll have to take action." no one was allowed to stand between him and his plan. and who was this simple minded thing anyway, this unimportant bastard who served only the purpose of lust. he would get rid of this girl, either one way or the other. when rose woke up, at first she felt nothing. it was like being enveloped in a cloud, as if she were floating. for a brief moment she didn't know where she was, what had happened, before she remembered. a terror ran through her and she tried to sit up, but a sharp pain held her back. she cried out. the pain coursed through her entire body. "you have to be careful," an unfamiliar female voice warned her and rose too to the side, to a woman with dark hair and green eyes. she was older than her, but the maturity in her face made her look more womanly. the stranger looked at her seriously. "you were hurt badly." she gently pushed rose back into bed. "who are you?" asked rose hesitantly, and the woman smiled. "my name is alys. i'm new here and i'm taking care of your wounds," alys explained to her, examining rose's wound, which was covered by bandages. "you mustn't move too frantically or you'll reopen the wound." "i thought i was going to die," rose confessed, following alys' gaze. alys nodded. "you almost were. you were just lucky the dagger didn't hit anything vital. a finger's width farther to the right and it would have hit your heart. it's just a deep flesh wound." rose swallowed. "how long have i been lying here?" "at least seven days. but i think even longer. you were awake from time to time, but you had a strong fever." "how is aemond?," the mistake had not occurred to her until she had already spoken his name, but if alys had noticed she was addressing aemond by his first name, she did not let it show. "the prince is unharmed, thank the gods." rose breathed a sigh of relief. she looked to the side and spotted the vase of white roses sitting on the table beside her. she smiled. "was he here?" she asked hopefully. alys looked at her in surprise. she twitched her eyebrows and dipped a rag into the bucket of water beside her to dab at rose's forehead. the cool wetness did her good. it made her feel alive again. "prince aemond?" asked alys in wonder. "he hasn't been here, rose. not once." rose couldn't ignore the stab in her heart. he hadn't visited her? not even checked on her? she couldn't imagine aemond caring so little about her, but then she wondered what significance she even had to the prince. and why would alys lie? she had no reason to. "the sight of me must have been unsightly," her voice trembled and alys surveyed her insistently. her gaze was unpleasant, as if nothing was hidden from her. she said nothing. "then who are the flowers from?" alys looked at the flowers. "they are from prince daeron. he asked me to inform him as soon as you were awake." she stood up. "i will now obey that instruction. get some rest, dear rose. you will need the rest. i will send for the maester." with these words alys said goodbye and left the room. left behind was an injured rose, who did not know what was worse, the injury caused by the dagger or the sting in her heart caused when alys revealed to her that aemond had not checked on her. that must have been a misunderstanding. aemond would not abandon her, would he? she wasn't imagining her special connection, was she? maybe alys hadn't seen him. what she and aemond had was special. she felt it. she knew it. he felt more for her, just as she felt more for him. he had captured her heart and in that moment rose realized that she loved this man. she had been willing to die for him and she would do it again. alicent watched her son. it pained her to see him like this. she saw him training with ser criston and repeatedly striking the poor man with his sword, which he could only fend off with difficulty. he looked angry and upset. since the assassination attempt on him, he seemed like a different person. she heard him murmuring next to her and looked at her daughter, who was looking out of the window with bleak and tired eyes. helaena seemed like a lifeless doll and it pained alicent to see her daughter like that. she wouldn't eat, she refused to eat, and alicent watched her daughter grow thinner day by day. she looked like a shadow of herself, eaten away and tormented by guilt that would probably never leave her. no matter what alicent said, no matter how much she tried to cheer her daughter up, to encourage her or absolve her of her guilt, helaena responded to nothing. not even aemond managed to get through to her and aegon, as always, was no help. but this murmuring, this murmuring was new. since the attack on her and her children, helaena had said nothing. that night she had thought that she and her child would die. then she would never see her grandchildren again. she had expected death. expected it. but then the servant whom her son daeron had brought, and to whom she had attached little importance, had come and saved her. she was not one to forget such a thing, but her connection with aemond displeased her. it was not according to his status and she saw her son changing. "did you say something, my dear child?" asked alicent hopefully, walking up to helaena, who suddenly looked at her, her eyes fixed on her. alicent tried to touch her, but her daughter only flinched. "dead and dragon's blood. in fire it will be revealed.dragon blood will prove it, will crown it, will reveal what is obvious. the white dragon will not survive, but its ashes will rise and burn everything down." alicent did not understand. "helaena what " "dragon blood will prove it. in fire it will be revealed. the medal will change sides," helaena suddenly hissed, her eyes preternaturally large. "and its ashes will rise and burn everything to the ground." there was a change in her voice. she almost seemed like a different person. her daughter's words were confusing, almost frightening, and she didn't know if it scared her more that helaena was having her episodes again and that she didn't understand what the young woman was talking about. helaena was shaking all over. she was dissolved and seemed lost. "in fire it is revealed..." in fire it is revealed. alys did inform him when the girl had woken up. he had known immediately what to do. unfortunately, the stupid woman had gone to a maester first of all. she prettier than intelligent. "maester ervin," larys said as the maester came out of the girl's room. he seemed surprised to see larys standing there, and looked at him in irritation. he had been waiting for him. "lord strong," the maester greeted him and bowed. "i'm surprised to see you here." "yes?" asked larys with an undercurrent of played wonder. "why?" "i just didn't expect to see you here," the maester confessed. "are you here for the girl?" larys nodded with a smile. "why? "isn't she our heroine? she defended prince aemond with her life. i wanted to inquire about her condition." the maester nodded, believing his words. "the wound is healing well. it is only a flesh wound. both are unharmed." larys raised an eyebrow and took a step closer. "both of them?" it wasn't what he thought, was it? the maester looked at him in surprise. "sorry, i thought that was familiar. i'm new here. the girl is expecting a child." larys took a deep breath. a thousand thoughts flooded his mind and his head began to ache at the explosion these thoughts left in him. the girl was pregnant? he needed to calm down. he couldn't let his anxiety show. her pregnancy threatened to destroy everything. he couldn't let that happen. he couldn't accept that. the girl was about to ruin everything. she was carrying a bastard under her heart. this child was not allowed to exist. she was not allowed to exist. "queen alicent asked me for information about the girl's condition. it was important to her that the girl be well. forgive me, my lord. i must tell queen alicent," the maester said and was about to move forward, but larys stood in his way and shook his head. the maester raised an eyebrow and larys put his hand reassuringly on his shoulder. he smiled. "queen alicent is busy with more important matters at the moment. i will tell her at the appropriate moment." "i thank you, but " "i am the closest advisor to alicent hightower. you can rest assured. i will tell her that you wished to obey her order at once, you have nothing to fear." the maester looked at him suspiciously, as if he suspected something guileful behind larys' suggestion, but his words seemed to have convinced him, and the maester finally nodded before bowing and moving off in the other direction. larys watched him go before his eyes turned to the door behind which rose lay in her bed. it would have been easy to walk into the room and press a pillow to her face, but he couldn't afford to make himself suspicious. he had to keep a cool head and think rationally. he hadn't come this far to ruin it with a rash action. she waited for him until late at night. but he did not come. she had hoped that he would come when he heard that she had woken up, but he had not shown up. she wondered if he even knew. not even daeron had come today, although alys had said she would let him know right away. maybe there was some trouble? they were at war. there were certainly more important things demanding their presence. maybe it was a good idea to surprise him? would it make him happy if he saw her? she would be happy, but she realized that she knew nothing about aemond's feelings. she didn't know what they both were, if it was just something physical for aemond or if he felt the same way she did. she had not hesitated to throw herself in front of him when the attacker tried to stab with the dagger. it was stupid and tired of life, she hadn't thought about the fact that she might die, basically she hadn't thought at all at that moment, but she realized she would do it again if it meant aemond didn't get hurt. her hand clutched her necklace. was she in love with aemond? had he wormed his way into her heart without her realizing it? every thought of aemond filled her with joy and happiness. the mere thought of him made her heart beat faster. she longed for his touch and his attention, his affection was like inner peace. her bare feet touched the cold floor as she stood up. she twisted her mouth as she moved her shoulder, and the wound across her chest stung painfully. the maester had told her to stay on bed rest, but she wanted to see him. she wanted to tell him what he meant to her. when she stepped out of her room, the corridor was empty. no one was there and rose had lost her bearings for a moment until she found her way to aemond's chambers. she saw the guards standing outside his door and paused. a glance down at her told her that it would not be a good idea to appear before them in this state. she had not wasted a second in her haste to go to aemond's that she was dressed only in her nightgown. she therefore decided to go to the side entrance. aemond had shown it to her so that she could get to his room unseen when they made love. once there, rose gently pushed open the door, anticipation rising on his surprised face, and was about to enter when she suddenly paused when she heard prince daeron's voice. "she is a pretty woman," daeron said. "she will make you happy, aemond." aemond said nothing in reply. not seeing them, she wondered for a moment if daeron was talking only to himself. who were they talking about? about her? rose smiled for a moment. aemond had told his brother about them both? "do you think she's trustworthy?" rose's eyebrows drew together in irritation. was daeron really talking about her? she shared a friendship with the prince, and he knew she could be trusted. he himself had brought her here. "that remains to be seen." she listened to aemond's voice for the first time, but it suddenly sounded so foreign. so forbidding. was this feeling coming over her because she hadn't heard him in so long? "you don't seem happy about this connection." and suddenly she didn't understand anything. "it is my duty as targaryen. i will fulfill my duty." who are these two talking about? connection? what connection? what duty? rose pressed closer to the door, quietly, so that they would not know that she was listening to this conversation. "marrying house baratheon will help us advance in the fight against rhaenyra. we need the strength of his house," aemond continued and rose realized they were not talking about her. aemond was planning to get married. it hit her like a slap in the face. she no longer felt her body. everything became cold and hot at the same time and as if someone kept hitting her head with a hammer, rose felt a dull pain. she felt the first tear roll down her cheek. was that why he hadn't visited her? because he had replaced her? because she had no meaning for him? "but your heart lies elsewhere, does it not?" she heard daeron's gentle cautious question and she held her breath. did daeron know about her, after all? had aemond told about her, after all? had he been forced into this marriage because it was a political marriage? did she mean something to him after all? maybe he didn't want this marriage and did it only because it was expected of him?   it is my duty as targaryen. i will fulfill my duty.   he said it was his duty. hope arose in rose. he didn't want this marriage. "what are you talking about?" "you know who i'm talking about. i know about you and rose. i know what happened and that on that night of the attack...that you were intimate with each other." he knew. daeron knew it, but the way he phrased it, aemond hadn't told him. "she means something to you, doesn't she?" rose peered hopefully through the small gap between the room and the door. she didn't want to overhear him, she knew it was wrong, but at that moment she had a chance to get the answer to her question. "she means nothing to me," aemond said, and it was like a dagger being stabbed straight into her heart this time. his voice was cold and dismissive. without any sympathy for her. rose felt like a hand wrapped around her stomach and turned him. "she's nobody. just a girl whose body i covet, have covet, but that comes to an end now." "please stop," rose breathed softly, distraught at the words she was about to hear. she felt more tears follow. "i have no further use for her." it was brutal. rose didn't know if she had ever felt such pain. it was worse than any sickness, any fear she had ever felt. it hurt like a thousand pinpricks on her skin, stabbing barbarically into her body again and again at every single stage. his words were merciless and she wondered if he would have chosen them the same way if she had revealed her feelings to him? did she really mean nothing to him? was everything they had had a lie? she felt like a different person. this had to be a dream. it was. she had yet to sleep and she would wake up in a moment to see that she had only been dreaming, but no matter how much she wished to wake up, she remained trapped in this nightmare. she reached for her wrist and pinched the skin between her fingers, a last pathetic attempt to wake up again, but she found that everything she had just heard was reality. she meant nothing to aemond. not the slightest thing. it was all a lie. dazed, she stumbled back. she wanted to get out of here. there was nothing more to hear. anything more aemond would say would only make her heart break further. as if taken, she staggered along the corridor. she had no idea where she was going. she just wanted to get away from here. she would never be able to look him in the face again. she would not bear to be near him. in the worst case, she would even have to watch him float through the corridors with his new bride, looking down on her, his former whore. for she seemed to have been nothing else to him. she had given him everything of herself and he had taken everything from her. she reached for the servants' quarters to get her things there, the sooner she would leave the better, but before she could touch the doorknob she felt a hand put over her mouth and something held in front of her nose. she squealed slightly, trying to resist, but suddenly her surroundings went black and before she could react, everything was dark. . . . . . "let's have our fun with her first," she heard an unfamiliar voice, muffled, so near and so far. "we've been instructed to kill her right away." "we do, but the pay sucks," the unknown voice said again. a man's voice. rose felt the cold, wet ground beneath her. branches cracked and a gust of wind passed over her skin. "i want my fun." where was she? had they taken her out of the castle? what did happen? "oh," came a surprised sound. "she's waking up." i'm awake, you son of a bitch, rose wanted to scream, but her head hurt so badly. what had happened? she remembered what aemond had said, the memory of it brutal and without mercy, and then suddenly everything was dark. "how nice. i like it when i look into their eyes." rose felt sick. she forced herself to open her eyes. it was more difficult than she thought. her eyelids were incredibly heavy, as if someone was squeezing them shut. she felt weak and powerless. like a doll that you could do whatever you wanted with. then she felt someone grab her chin and she wrenched her eyes open. at first the outline was blurry, then a man with a fat grin looked back at her. "hello, sweetie." she knew this man. he was one of the men who had held her along with the septa. what was he doing here? what was she doing here? she looked around. she saw several men smiling at her. they were in a forest. why was she in a forest? just a few minutes ago, she was in the castle. there was no forest in king's landing. where were they? where had these men taken her? what was happening here? "i know you," she breathed in a weak voice, and the man's grin grew even wider. "oh, she remembers me. how flattering," he laughed and the men around him joined in. there were four of them in all. "well how are we doing?" rose looked at him in irritation. "why am i here?" the blow to her face came suddenly and hard. she felt like her whole co9p was going to fly off. "it's rude to answer a question with a question in return." she felt blood in her mouth. "stop it you're damaging her," one of the men said reproachfully. "she's pretty." "and as good as dead," the man who had hit her replied, annoyed, before turning back to her with a smile. "so, how are you?" rose gulped. "lousy," she said, and a laugh went through the ranks. the men were having a good laugh at her condition. "then we want you to feel better right away." the man in front of her suddenly grabbed her by her legs and pulled her close. rose squealed in fright as he squeezed between her legs. "what are you going to do?" the question was almost ridiculous; she knew exactly what he was up to. but no one was responding to her. he pushed her down with one hand, and no matter how hard she tried to resist, she didn't stand a chance against him. "ay, why do you get to start?," one of the men moaned indignantly and jumped forward. "because i'm the boss and i decide, so shut up." his voice boomed over their heads and it was enough to silence the other man. rose looked at their faces in disgust. they all wanted the same thing. her. her fear crashed down on her without mercy. then the man between her legs looked at her. "so, sweetheart, let's have some fun," he said, pushing up her dress. "don't touch me," rose screamed, panic rising inside her. "i swear to you, i will return and kill every one of you." the man above her looked at her in surprise before suddenly laughing. he laughed so loudly that his laughter echoed throughout the forest. it was a biting, and humiliating laugh. a tear rolled down her cheek. "how are you going to do that, girl, when you're already dead?" his words made her realize that they weren't planning on just having fun with hers and then letting her go. "someone at the castle doesn't like you very much, sweetie." someone had given them the order to kill her ? someone wanted her dead? who had to hate her so much that they wanted her dead? no matter who rose thought of, no one came to mind. the septa was gone and everyone else had no reason to kill her. what relevance did she have? she was a nobody. she didn't know any big secrets, and she wasn't anyone of any importance. killing her, or after worse, commissioning her killing, seemed so ridiculous. "but don't worry. we'll give you some beautiful last moments in this world," the man said in a soothing voice, before tugging at her dress again, making her aware that if she didn't fight back now, she was doomed to die. it would be her last chance. he was rough, fumbling with his pants as he pushed her deeper into the mud. rose looked around in panic for something to hit him with, and she almost gave up hope and accepted her fate, if she hadn't seen a sharp stone lying next to her at the last moment. none of the men seemed to see what she saw and before anyone could react, she grabbed the stone and hit the man in the eye with the sharp edge over hers. the man screamed like a sow being speared and she took her chance and kicked him off her. everyone was too shocked, so no one was quick to grab her when she got up and ran. she ran obsessively, as fast as she could, not caring how the broken branches and sharp stones tore up her feet and left a trail of blood behind her. "catch her!," one of the men shouted and she heard them running after her. they were faster than her and she heard them getting closer and closer. rose didn't know where she was running, she was just running, hoping to outrun them, but when she suddenly came to an abyss, stunned at her lack of happiness, she realized that she was lost. there was no way out. she would die tonight. "there you are, you fucking cunt." she turned around. all the men had arrived. they all had hostile expressions on their faces and grinned as they realized their hopeless situation. "unfortunately you will, girl, i promise you." she believed him immediately. but she wouldn't let it get that far. there was a way out. just not what she had hoped for. she turned around and looked into the abyss. the night was foggy, very cloudy and she didn't see what was happening below, but that wasn't important. if she hit the ground, she would die instantly in the best case scenario, and if she jumped into water, she would drown shortly after. she didn't want to die. but she would never endure what they planned to do to her only to die afterwards. she closed her eyes and took a deep breath. "come here, my sweet daughter." the gentle voice from her dream suddenly reached her. suddenly everything felt weightless and for a moment she felt born. she remembered the dream but she understood nothing. what did mean? maybe death wasn't the end. maybe it was the path to something better. maybe he was the peace she longed for. she thought of aemond's words and she wondered if he would be sad if he knew she was gone. would he even know she was dead, or would her disappearance forever be a mystery? "come to me." suddenly she felt the wind getting stronger. confused, she opened her eyes and looked at the sky. she saw the clouds suddenly move faster. it looked like they were being stirred up, like someone was pushing them aside to make room for something else. for something bigger. "what the hell," one of the men swore and suddenly rose saw a figure in front of her. first she saw an eye staring at her mercilessly, then sharp teeth, the thread of saliva and then red skin that at first looked like red stones before she realized what figure, what beast appeared there in front of her. warm air was blown towards her and she opened her eyes more. a dragon looked back at her, through cold and aggressive eyes, merciless eyes that stared down at her. it wasn't the first dragon she had seen. it wasn't the first dragon she'd been so close to either, but it was the first dragon she'd faced like this. but it wasn't an unknown beast. she knew those red scales and that long neck. she knew those eyes that looked at her as if she were the most pitiful creature in this realm. full of fear, her gaze wandered further up, knowing who would be looking at her there. her second encounter with him was no different than the first. his gaze was cold, hard, hard hearted and he stared down at her like she wasn't even worth breathing in his presence. he was exactly as she remembered him. daemon targaryen. the rogue prince. his gaze shifted to the men behind her, realization seemed to hit him and then he spoke the words every dragon rider had said at least once in their lives. "dracarys." she felt the biting heat and the only thing she could do as the searing flood descended on her was to throw herself on the ground and hope that her death would be quick and painless. rose wondered if wherever she ended up she would see her mother again. fanfiction fanfiction fanfiction fanfiction

read more tyrion lannister biographical information born 265 ac[a] (age 40)[b]casterly rock, the westerlands[c] political information house(s) lannister[1] affiliation(s) house baratheon of king's landing[2] (formerly)small council[2]house targaryen[3] (formerly) title(s) acting hand of the king[4] (formerly)master of coin[5] (formerly)hand of the queen[6] (formerly)hand of the king[7]lord of casterly rockwarden of the west personal information also known as the imp[1]halfman[8]the little lion[citation needed]dwarf of casterly rock[9] culture westermen[1] religion faith of the seven[1] father {tywin lannister}[10] mother {joanna lannister}[11] spouse(s) tysha[8] (1st wife, annulled)sansa stark[12] (2nd wife, unconsummated) lover(s) {shae}[8] world of westeros series game of thrones season(s) 1 · 2 · 3 · 4 · 5 · 6 · 7 · 8 appeared in 67 episodes (see below) first seen in "winter is coming" last seen in "the iron throne" portrayed by peter dinklage lord tyrion lannister is the youngest child of lord tywin lannister and younger brother of cersei and jaime lannister. a dwarf, he uses his wit and intellect to overcome the prejudice he faces. he is the current lord of casterly rock and hand of the king to brandon stark. tyrion's mother, joanna lannister, died giving birth to him, a tragedy which tywin and cersei unfairly blame tyrion for.[13][11] tyrion is mocked for being a dwarf, called derisive names such as "imp" and "halfman", which he tries to embrace to keep his self esteem up. had an infant with dwarfism like tyrion been born a commoner, he'd have been left in the woods to die; luckily, his birthright as a lannister afforded him significant wealth and power.[14] when tyrion was sixteen, he interrupted the attempted rape of a wheelwright's daughter. while jaime dispatched the attackers, tyrion helped the girl, named tysha, recover. they later became lovers and got married in secret. when lord tywin learned what had happened, he payed tysha, a prostitute, to service every one of his guards while tyrion watched. jaime confessed he had orchestrated the attack to help tyrion lose his virginity.[8] while two siblings occupied positions of power, tyrion was put in charge of the sewers at casterly rock when he turned of age.[15] tyrion spent a lot of time at court in king's landing to avoid his father. he got on well with jaime, his niece myrcella and nephew tommen, but had a colder relationship with cersei and the psychopathic joffrey.[16] tyrion is committed to the good of both his house, and since cersei married king robert baratheon, his family's hold on the throne.[13] tyrion visits a whorehouse upon his arrival in winterfell. tyrion accompanies king robert baratheon to winterfell, where he makes the acquaintance of a prostitute named ros, and gives her a lannister lion necklace. while lingering outside the feast hall, tyrion meets jon snow, eddard stark's bastard son and realizes he is something of a kindred spirit. "all dwarfs are bastards in their father's eyes," he explains.[1] despite time spent in brothels and taverns, tyrion is well read, cunning, and has a fondness for social misfits.[17] tyrion in winterfell with the hound. tyrion prepares to leave winterfell. when prince joffrey refuses to pay his respects to lord and lady stark after bran's fall, tyrion slaps him until he acquiesces. he then breakfasts with his family, where he says he wants to visit the wall and piss off it. he takes interest in bran's fall, noting carefully his siblings' glum reactions to the news that bran is likely to live.[14] on the road to castle black, tyrion explains to jon that he likes to read as it keeps his wits sharp. upon reaching the wall, he is temporarily rendered speechless by the size and scale of the structure.[14] during his stay, tyrion observes jon snow's superior attitude toward his fellow recruits and recommends he help the others train in order to earn their friendship. maester aemon and lord commander jeor mormont ask tyrion to use his influence at court to recruit more men for the night's watch. while tyrion is sympathetic, he doesn't believe in danger beyond the wall.[18] tyrion speaks with bran. pausing at winterfell on the trip home, tyrion gives bran the blueprint for a custom saddle. at the inn at the crossroads, tyrion is ambushed by catelyn stark and arrested for bran's attempted murder.[17] tyrion defends his innocence to catelyn en route to the eyrie. catelyn takes tyrion, who protests his innocence, to the eyrie. a sellsword from the inn, bronn, accompanies them, noting tyrion's wealth and a promise he will handsomely reward any man who helps him. they are attacked by the hill tribes and tyrion barely manages to defend himself.[19] tyrion warns catelyn that her sister, lysa, has become irrational with grief and will try to kill him. she is skeptical, but tyrion is proven correct: lysa accuses him conspiring in her jon arryn's death. tyrion is thrown into one of the eyrie's "sky cells", dungeons which open onto a ravine on one side.[19] tyrion in the sky cells of the eyrie. tyrion bargains with his gaoler, mord, to get an audience with lady arryn and he "confesses" to being a whoremonger and dwarf, before demanding a trial by combat. bronn agrees to stand as his champion and kills ser vardis egen, freeing tyrion. bronn accompanies him on the journey south.[20] tyrion bargains with the hill tribes. tyrion establishes some ground rules with bronn, saying he will pay more money than anyone else who attempts to bribe him to betray tyrion. they are then surrounded by men of the hill tribes, led by shagga. tyrion uses his quick wit and words to win the allegiance of the tribes, offering to better equip them for battle and help them conquer the vale of arryn in return for their help. shagga agrees, though he notes that if tyrion tries to renege on his promise he will cut off his manhood and feed it to the goats.[21] tywin lannister's forces have been attacking catelyn's home in the riverlands ever since she arrested tyrion. it's not that he cares so much about tyrion, he explains to jaime, but because even though tyrion is the least of them he is still a lannister, and if they allow one of their own to be taken so easily, they risk losing the respect of the other houses. the hill tribesmen deliver tyrion to his father's army, where he learns that robb stark is leading an army to war. tyrion warns his father that robb should not be underestimated. tywin agrees to honor tyrion's alliance with the hill tribes. when shagga says they will only fight if tyrion is with them on the field, tywin also agrees, to tyrion's dismay.[21] tyrion drinks with bronn before battle. tyrion is commanded by his father to lead the hill tribes into battle from the front. feeling that his father means to kill him, tyrion retires to his tent, where he finds that bronn has found a prostitute for him, a girl named shae. tyrion attempts to learn more about shae via a drinking game, but finds his questions deflected. instead he tells her about his own past with tysha, a wheelwright's daughter. they married and spent several happy weeks together until tywin learned of the matter. tywin had jaime tell tyrion the truth, that tysha was a prostitute that jaime had paid to make his brother happy for a while. tywin then gave her a piece of silver for every one of his guards she had sex with while tyrion was forced to watch. since then tyrion has never attempted to take a wife or lover, only whores he can pay and send on their way.[8] tyrion leads the hill tribes to battle. the next morning, tyrion leads the tribes into battle at the green fork, but is knocked out by one of his own warriors' mis swung hammers just as the engagement begins. he is found by bronn, after the battle, who brings tyrion before his father on a medical stretcher. he learns from his father that robb deceived them, delaying their army with a feinting force so the main stark host can fall on and defeat jaime's army in battle, with the northern army now regrouping for an attack on king's landing.[8] tyrion discusses the future with his father. with jaime captured, robb's forces now allied to those of the riverlands and both stannis and renly baratheon claiming the iron throne, the odds have swung against the lannisters. tywin risks being caught between three armies, so he retreats to harrenhal. tyrion makes shrewd observations about the ominous turn the current situation has taken now that joffrey has killed eddard. grudgingly impressed, tywin orders tyrion to report to king's landing and act as the hand of the king to try to keep joffrey in line and execute any of the small council members if they try anything treasonous. tywin forbids him to take "that whore" with him, but tyrion defies him and asks shae to come to king's landing with him.[4] tyrion returns to king's landing. tyrion arrives in king's landing, accompanied by bronn, lannister soldiers, and members of the hill tribes. he assumes the role of acting hand of the king to joffrey baratheon, who isn't happy to see him, unlike myrcella and tommen. after taking his seat at the small council, he clashes with his sister, queen regent cersei lannister, over her failure to stop the execution of his predecessor as hand, eddard stark. he also criticizes her for allowing arya stark to escape, as the girl and her father could have been useful to bargain for the return of jaime. [2] tyrion hides shae in the tower of the hand. he installs shae in the tower of the hand, in defiance of his father's orders. she is initially thrilled at being brought to the capital, and says that big cities make her "want to fuck." he explains how populous the liars of king's landing are, trying to convince shae that he is somewhat truthful in comparison. he also laments eddard stark and his honor, but also remarks on how that was his downfall, emphasizing how the court is built on his lies. tyrion states that he will make changes during his tenure as hand of the king to shae, before the two share a tender kiss.[2] tyrion warns varys not to underestimate him after the spider discovers shae's presence and lets tyrion know that he is aware of her. during a small council session, tyrion finds himself the only sympathetic ear to a request by the night's watch for aid from the throne. he also criticizes cersei's lack of talent for diplomacy when she rejects peace terms from robb stark brought by their cousin ser alton lannister. tyrion invites lord janos slynt for dinner and gets him to confess his part in the recent massacre of king robert's bastards as well as his part in the betrayal of eddard. after openly noting slynt's lack of honor, tyrion has lord janos exiled to the wall as punishment, and installs bronn as commander of the city watch in his place.[11] tyrion arranges for shae to serve as a handmaiden to sansa stark when she demands more freedom. he tests the loyalty of the remaining small council members by feeding them varying plans for marriage alliances involving princess myrcella baratheon. he is confronted by cersei about sending myrcella to dorne in a betrothal to the youngest son of house martell. tyrion has pycelle thrown into the black cells for revealing the information given only to him. varys congratulates him for the ploy to lure out the queen's informant. tyrion is also confronted by an angry petyr baelish for having been unwittingly involved in the ruse; nevertheless, tyrion recruits littlefinger in a plan to convince catelyn stark to release jaime, offering him harrenhal and the title of lord paramount of the trident.[22] tyrion is shocked and furious to find joffrey orchestrating the public beating of sansa for her brother's victory in the battle of oxcross. he orders a halt to the proceedings, and warns joffrey to consider his actions more carefully, lest he wants to suffer the same fate as the mad king. he then escorts sansa out of the throne room. bronn suggests that joffrey would benefit from sexual release. tyrion arranges for two whores for his nephew but joffrey forces one to beat the other as a message to tyrion. lancel lannister visits tyrion to demand the release of pycelle on cersei's behalf. tyrion notes the lateness of the hour and traps lancel into admitting his sexual relationship with cersei. tyrion uses the information to blackmail lancel into acting as his informant.[23] tyrion discovers cersei's storage of wildfire. tyrion reports news of king renly baratheon's death to cersei. she is pleased, but tyrion predicts stannis baratheon's imminent attack having assumed control of renly's men. he tries to discuss plans for their defense, but she insists on keeping them secret. he learns that she is reliant of the alchemists' guild from lancel. he visits wisdom hallyne and learns that the guild have stockpiled thousands of jars of wildfire to use as catapult ammunition. bronn sees this strategy as potentially disastrous because of the volatile nature of wildfire. tyrion orders hallyne to answer to him instead of cersei. he passes a street protest that blames him for the ills of the city, as the people believe him to be manipulating joffrey.[24] tyrion and the court assemble at the shore of blackwater bay for the departure of princess myrcella. cersei remains angry about tyrion's arrangements for her daughter, threatening to one day deprive him of someone he loves. as they return to the red keep through the city, they are confronted by angry crowds of starving smallfolk. sensing the imminent danger, tyrion orders a guard to escort prince tommen back to the keep by another route. shortly after, joffrey is hit by thrown excrement and triggers a riot by demanding that his guards kill everyone in the crowd. tyrion is horrified when the high septon is torn to pieces by the famished crowd. he marshals his guards to lead him to safety. once the royal family is safely separated from the mob, tyrion confronts joffrey for triggering the riot and the war that preceded it, calling him a vicious idiot. he slaps joffrey when his nephew refuses to listen to the criticism. tyrion orders meryn trant to retrieve the missing sansa, knowing that jaime's life is also on the line, but meryn will not follow his orders. he is relieved when sandor clegane brings her to safety.[25] cersei confesses that she believes joffrey's viciousness might be the price she pays for her sin of incest with jaime. tyrion does not know how to comfort his sister in this rare moment of vulnerability, but reminds her that both myrcella and tommen are kind and gentle. word that stannis' fleet is days away reinforces the need to control joffrey.[26] tyrion studies texts in preparation for stannis's attack. tyrion turns to books for insight into siege defense tactics, notably ch'vyalthan's an history of the great sieges of westeros, but bronn warns that the grim realities of a siege cannot be understood from reading, stating that the idea of a siege is to cause starvation and disorder to those who are fortified, and that many undeserving criminals revel in this. tyrion affirms the loyalty of varys and is enigmatic about his plans for the battle, but believes stannis will attack at the mud gate.[15] varys warns tyrion of daenerys targaryen. on the ramparts, joffrey wishes to attack robb stark's forces now that winterfell has fallen to the ironborn, but tyrion advises against it, due to stannis' impending attack on king's landing. after joffrey leaves, varys commends tyrion on his ability to play the game of thrones, then warns him that daenerys targaryen has survived and has three dragons. once again, tyrion prefers to focus on the problem at hand.[15] tyrion informs cersei of stannis's movements. after learning that joffrey is keen to fight in defense of the city, cersei is furious and suspects tyrion of trying to kill her son. she mistakenly identifies ros as his lover because of the lannister pendant tyrion gave her and seizes the opportunity to deliver on the threat she made when myrcella left. cersei has the prostitute kidnapped as insurance against tyrion placing joffrey in harm's way. tyrion later visits cersei in her chambers, where he tells of stannis being spotted near tarth, with his navy surpassing that of the royal fleet. she reveals her capture of ros to tyrion, who fears that she means shae, referring to her only a "your little whore."[15] tyrion confesses his love for shae. tyrion is relieved that shae is unhurt, but vows to free ros and when the prostitute is taken away, he promises cersei that he will exact revenge on her, before she banishes him for her presence. he rushes back to his lover's side and confesses the depth of his feeling for her, both of them mentioning that they would violently defend each other, while warning that they must be doubly careful.[15] podrick armors tyrion for battle. he spends the night before the expected siege in bed with shae, telling her she can still leave the city. tyrion has varys provide him with a map of the tunnel network beneath the city. varys tells tyrion that he is all that stands between them and defeat. he later meets shae, now sansa's maid, and pretends not to know her in order to keep their relationship from cersei. tyrion then smiles at sansa's false loyalty to joffrey, noting how she has already began to understand the falsehood of court life.[27] tyrion defends king's landing with wildfire. tyrion leads the defense of the city during the battle of the blackwater, commanding the defenders at the mud gate. he destroys a large portion of the attacking fleet by luring them into a trap; a ship filled with wildfire and allowed to leak its cargo into the bay. he signals bronn to detonate the wildfire using a flaming arrow. stannis continues with the assault, landing his troops further out in the bay to avoid the devastation of the explosion.[27] tyrion rallies the lannister troops. tyrion's initial attempts to repel the attackers are unsuccessful and cersei has joffrey withdrawn to the red keep, with the king leaving ser mandon moore and ser boros blount of the kingsguard to fight in his name. tyrion is faced with increasing dissent from his troops but rallies them with a rousing speech. he personally leads a sortie through the tunnels under the city, destroying stannis' siege equipment.[27] tyrion is wounded by ser mandon. he is trapped outside the walls by a group of reinforcements and then betrayed by ser mandon. mandon slashes tyrion across the face but podrick kills him with a spear before he can finish tyrion off. as tyrion collapses into unconsciousness a host of lannister tyrell reinforcements led by a man wearing renly's armor arrives to claim the victory.[27] his father is also present among the victors, who is proclaimed savior of the city, whilst tyrion's effects have been passed over.[28] tyrion awakens to find pycelle looming over him. the reinstated grand maester gloatingly informs tyrion that he has been relieved as acting hand of the king and moved to new chambers. tyrion rejects pain relief, fearing that his enemy will poison him. he calls for podrick to summon his allies, varys and bronn. varys visits tyrion and regretfully tells him that although his leadership was key to saving the city he will not be recognized by king joffrey. he also reports that bronn has been relieved of his command and his tribesmen have taken their plunder and gone home.[28] tyrion shows shae his scarred face. varys offers a small consolation; he has brought shae to see tyrion. varys leaves them alone and shae removes tyrion's bandages to reveal a scar marring his whole face. tyrion is self pitying; she angrily asserts her love for him and begs him to flee to pentos with her. he says that standing up to the bad people in his life, out talking and out thinking them, is something that he is good at and enjoys. he chooses to stay in king's landing and she agrees to remain with him.[28] some weeks after the battle of blackwater, cersei pays tyrion a visit accompanied by two of her son's kingsguard. she only gains entrance to tyrion's chambers after agreeing to leave her guards outside. once inside cersei demands to know how he will "slander" her to their father now that he is here. tyrion asks when he has ever slandered her before, and she reminds him of a time at casterly rock that he got her in serious trouble with their father: when she was nine years old, cersei discovered that a servant girl (also nine years old) had stolen a necklace, so she had her guards beat the girl, who ended up losing an eye. tyrion told their father what cersei had done and he was angered, but cersei notes that the servant girl never stole a necklace again. tyrion quips that it isn't "slander" if it's true, and he only told tywin what she really did. the queen admits that tyrion is a clever man but not as clever as he might believe. tyrion merely retorts that this still makes him a great deal more clever that her. cersei then leaves abruptly and just in time to prevent meryn trant and bronn from exchanging blows.[29] tyrion discusses bronn's payment. tyrion is surprised to understand that bronn (who had defended him against cersei's entourage) has been knighted and styles himself as "ser bronn of the blackwater." while possessing no lands, wealth, or titles, this drastically elevates his social standing   and in his mind, his pay. he tells tyrion that he still thinks of him a friend, but he is still a sellsword, and as a knight tyrion should pay him double what he used to, reminding him of his promise made after his trial.[29] tyrion meets with his father. after speaking with his sister, tyrion requests his father give him casterly rock, as jaime gave up all rights of inheritance when he joined the kingsguard. this leaves tyrion as the next in lawful line of succession as lord of casterly rock. tywin hatefully spites his son for "killing" his mother in childbirth, and saying that although he will reward him in due time, he will never make tyrion heir to casterly rock, considering him an abomination and a curse who would only humiliate the family name and turn casterly rock into a brothel. as tyrion leaves, tywin warns him that if he catches another whore in his bed he will hang her.[29] shae sneaks into tyrion's new chambers. he warns her that his father threatened to kill her if he found her with him again, and that his father follows through on such threats. undeterred, shae starts undressing tyrion, and asks him for a favor; to protect sansa from baelish. tyrion says that he no longer has enough power or influence to attempt to do that, though shae accuses him of being attracted to sansa, which he cheerfully denies. it also comes out that tyrion had sex with ros back in the north, though tyrion points out it was before he met shae. they playfully bicker about it as they start having sex.[30] tyrion defies his father during a small council meeting. tywin lannister calls the first meeting of the small council since he arrived in the city, arriving early and has all of the council members called in at once. all of the seats are on one side of the table, as a non verbal test to see how each of them reacts around him. tyrion is the only one who even mildly stands up to tywin's posturing, by not even trying to sit closest to tywin: instead he takes a new chair and makes a point of noisily dragging it across the ground until it is positioned at the exact opposite end of the table from his father. it is announced that littlefinger will marry lady lysa arryn. tyrion points out that if baelish departs for the vale that leaves a vacancy on the small council, and tywin reveals that he has appointed tyrion as the new master of coin to replace him. while this may seem like giving tyrion a position of relative power again, tyrion quickly points out that he has no prior experience in finance. with backhanded compliments, cersei makes it clear that this promotion is really intended to give him an opportunity to make mistakes he will be blamed for.[5] petyr transfers the master of coin's documents to tyrion. after the meeting, tyrion, podrick and bronn drop by littlefinger's office in his brothel, where he keeps his ledgers. littlefinger says it was the safest place to keep such records, but tyrion notes that his brothel hasn't been the safest place for bastards. baelish says he hopes tyrion does well in the position, as he owes him for securing the release of ros (after cersei arrested her, mistaking her for shae) but tyrion says it was just a misunderstanding. tyrion and bronn then lead pod into another room of the brothel, where tyrion says that he wants to reward him for saving his life during the battle of the blackwater: he has paid for podrick (who has never had sex with a woman) to enjoy the services of not one, but three prostitutes.[5] later, tyrion is reading through the financial records, and explains to bronn that not all is as baelish would like the court to think. bronn asks if he thinks littlefinger has been stealing to obtain the crown's money, but tyrion says the problem is more that he's been borrowing all of it. littlefinger always acted like he was a financial genius who could raise money seemingly out of nowhere, but in reality the iron throne is heavily in debt, and littlefinger procured enough money to balance the books every year by borrowing massive sums of money from foreign banks. in particular, much of their debt is owed to the iron bank of braavos, the largest bank in the free cities. tyrion warns bronn that when debtors to the iron bank cannot repay their loans, the iron bank will first refuse to give out new loans, and ultimately support rebellions against them.[5] tyrion and ser bronn learn from podrick. tyrion fears that if they can't repay the debt, the iron bank will eventually cut them off and start supporting robb stark or stannis baratheon. podrick then returns, with the money tyrion gave him to pay the prostitutes. tyrion is concerned that he lost heart and fled, but pod innocently says he did "all sorts of things" with the prostitutes   they simply refused his offer of payment. impressed that the women would provide their services for free, tyrion and bronn ask pod to explain in detail what transpired, so they can take "copious notes."[5] varys tells tyrion of his past. escorted by varys to a dark room, tyrion is finally told the story of how the eunuch was traveling through the free cities with a party of actors. it is revealed that he was castrated by a male sorcerer who spoke to the air and 'something' answered him. varys then pries open the box in the room and reveals the sorcerer who had done this terrible deed.[31] lady olenna tyrell explains to tyrion that house tyrell will support the cost of the wedding between joffrey and margaery. following this, lord tywin summons both tyrion and cersei to his chambers to inform them of his plans to wed them off, cersei to loras tyrell and tyrion to sansa stark, who tywin explains will be heir to winterfell after he defeats robb stark, thus giving the lannisters a future foothold in the north.[32] tyrion & cersei ponder their forced marriages. cersei and tyrion are evidently reluctant to consider these marriages, tyrion in particular emphasizing how it will be worse for loras and sansa than for himself and his sister, especially since sansa hoped to marry loras herself. partway through the discussion, tyrion brings up the question of who employed ser mandon moore to kill tyrion. cersei, of course, denies her involvement, but tyrion is still suspicious, as well as suggesting that joffrey may be the culprit,as tyrion is the only one who dares to speak against the king.[33] tyrion speaks with sansa before their wedding at the great sept of baelor; though he knows the girl is not thrilled at the prospect of marrying him. tyrion promises sansa that he will not mistreat her, and sansa agrees there are worse lannisters she could be wed to.[12] sansa and tyrion marry in a humiliating ceremony. the ceremony is a grim affair; joffrey smugly escorts sansa to the altar in place of her father and petulantly removes the stool upon which tyrion was to stand on to cloak sansa in lannister colors as part of the ceremony, eliciting snickers from the congregation (though the scowl of lord tywin quickly silences them). tyrion in the face of humiliation asks sansa to kneel and he places the cloak around her shoulders. the new high septon begins the ceremony. later as man and wife they have their reception dinner, which also proves a grim and miserable affair.[12] a drunken tyrion threatens joffrey. at the night of their wedding, tyrion gets drunk and threatens joffrey with castration after the latter commands him to carry out the bedding ceremony with sansa. tywin calms joffrey and tyrion takes sansa to his bedchamber, where he tells her that his lord father has commanded him to consummate the marriage. as sansa begins to disrobe, tyrion refuses, insisting that he won't bed her until she wants him to, then he passes out drunk.[12] tyrion starts to bond with sansa, despite their circumstances. after his marriage, tyrion starts bonding with sansa and lightly enhances his relationship with her, making crude jokes in an attempt to cheer each other. the two discuss how they would punish social enemies, rather than the harsh reality of political ones. both shae and tyrion silently remark on sansa's innocence when it comes to vulgar language, until he is called away when tywin calls a meeting of the small council where joffrey happily informs him that robb and catelyn stark have both been murdered at the red wedding by walder frey. he orders grand maester pycelle to thank frey and command him to send robb stark's head, which he will serve to sansa at his wedding, fulfilling an earlier promise to her. however, tyrion threatens him yet again before pycelle can send any messages to the twins. after the end of the meeting, tywin and tyrion discuss the details of what consequences the red wedding might have on the war. tyrion knows that walder frey will receive all the credit for the massacre, but also the blame, and correctly deduces that tywin is the true mastermind behind the wedding, much to his displeasure. tywin tells him that roose bolton is warden of the north until he impregnates sansa stark, but tyrion assures him that he can't and won't do it even forcefully. tywin lectures tyrion on protecting family legacy and that the house that puts family first will always prevail over the family the fulfills the wishes of its sons and daughters first.[34] tyrion accuses tywin and protests that he has never done something for the benefit of the family that wasn't in his interest. tywin tells him that when he was born, he wanted to leave him in the sea and let the waves take him away, and that he instead he let him live and raised him because he is a lannister. afterwards, he returns to sansa, who is in tears having heard of her brother and mother's tragedy. later, cersei visits tyrion and informs him that she won't be marrying ser loras. she also advises him to give sansa children, to which tyrion responds by asking her how happy is she with her children. cersei admits that if it wasn't for her children, she would've killed herself, even for joffrey. she ponders how happy he used to be in his infant years and how much he brought such joy in her life at that time, and that neither joffrey nor anyone else can take that away from her.[34] tyrion awaits the arrival of prince doran martell. tyrion is sent to welcome prince doran martell to king's landing. as he, podrick, and bronn are expecting the dornishman, they spot martell bannermen coming their way. tyrion greets them, but they inform him that prince doran's declining health prevents him from leaving sunspear, and therefore he has sent his brother prince oberyn martell to attend king joffrey's wedding in his stead. they also explain that oberyn went ahead and entered the city before dawn. tyrion quickly puts together that he may be at one of littlefinger's brothels. when tyrion arrives, he finds prince oberyn stabbing a man's hand for singing "the rains of castamere." he is introduced to oberyn's paramour, ellaria sand, and asks the dornishman to talk in private.[35] oberyn warns tyrion. he asks him why he came to the capital and oberyn tells him that he was invited to the royal wedding. tyrion knows he's lying and asks for the honest truth. oberyn remembers how rhaegar targaryen wed his sister elia, and how his involvement with another woman started robert's rebellion. he tells tyrion that the war ended with his father sacking the city while "the mountain" (ser gregor clegane) brutally murdered elia's children, then raped and murdered her. he orders tyrion to tell his father that he's here, and warns him that the lannisters are not the only ones who pay their debts.[35] tyrion attempts to comfort a bereaved sansa. afterwards, he visits a deeply depressed sansa and tries to comfort her by telling her that her brother and mother were good people. in tears, she tells him the grueling details of how they died. tyrion advises her to stay strong, as that is what her mother would want. sansa leaves to go to the godswood and she tells tyrion that she doesn't pray anymore, and instead goes because nobody is talking to her there. distraught, he returns to his bedchamber, where shae is waiting for him. she tries to pleasure him but tyrion refuses. shae questions him if he's really in love with sansa. tyrion says that he doesn't and this time, shae asks him if he wants her out of the city. after getting no answer, she storms out of his bedchamber, and it is revealed that one of cersei's spies heard the whole conversation.[35] tyrion presents joffrey with a tedious tome. in the days following, tyrion, along with other noblemen and women present in king's landing, attend the breakfast on the morning of joffrey and margaery tyrell's wedding. he meets varys before arriving, who informs him of cersei's spy and cersei's consequent knowledge of shae's presence, and warns him that tywin will know shortly. varys also warns him that he will not protect tyrion or shae against the former's father and sister out of regard for his own safety. at the breakfast, tyrion observes cersei's indication of shae to her father as "the whore i told you about." tywin subsequently requests that she be brought to the tower of the hand before the wedding. tyrion then presents the groom a gift of a tome detailing the reigns of daeron, the young dragon; baelor the blessed; aegon the unworthy and daeron the good. this is met with surprising approval and gratitude from the king until he is presented with a valyrian steel sword by his grandfather and proceeds to demonstrate the blade's sharpness by destroying the book with it.[36] tyrion banishes shae from to pentos. after the breakfast, tyrion meets with shae in his quarters and shows uncharacteristic and confusing coldness towards her despite her gestures of affection. he terminates their "friendship" and informs her that she is to leave and go to live in pentos, telling her that she must do so in order for him to uphold her marital vows to sansa. she deduces that he is afraid of his sister and father and expresses her desire to fight them alongside him. as she draws closer, tyrion yells at her, calling her a whore, and states her unfitness to bear his children, in contrast to sansa's. bronn arrives to escort the sobbing shae to the docks, resulting in her slapping him and storming off.[36] joffrey insults tyrion at the former's wedding feast. at the wedding feast, joffrey organizes some entertainment: five dwarfs mockingly re enacting the war of the five kings. tyrion, disgusted, instructs podrick to pay each dwarf 20 gold dragons after the show. at the conclusion of the show, joffrey suggests tyrion fight the former's dwarf counterpart. tyrion politely declines and sarcastically voices awe at joffrey's skill and bravery at the battle of the blackwater and his desire to see them again. insulted at the disrespectful undertone, joffrey pours his wine over tyrion's head in an immature show of superiority. he then instructs tyrion to act as his cupbearer, before kicking the goblet under a table, forcing tyrion to handle it several times. he finally orders him to kneel and tyrion, obviously possessing no intention to do so, is saved by the arrival of the pigeon pie. he attempts to leave with sansa, but is spotted by joffrey, who commands him to remain and continue his duties as his cupbearer. tyrion hands the king his goblet, who begins to choke after drinking from it. in his final moments, joffrey points to tyrion, apparently accusing him, as the latter inspects the goblet for poison, and he is seized and arrested by members of the kingsguard on cersei's orders.[36] podrick visits tyrion. after tyrion has been incarcerated, he gets a visit from podrick who smuggles in some food and writing materials to help him get through prison life. he informs tyrion of sansa's disappearance. tyrion is sure that sansa had nothing to do with the murder. just as pod leaves he turns around and tells tyrion about a man whom he didn't know offering him a knighthood if he testified against him. tyrion knew that it wasn't a suggestion, and soon enough, they'll threaten him with something worse. tyrion advises pod to leave king's landing, sending him off with a final farewell.[37] at bronn's intervention, jaime comes to see tyrion. jaime tries to comfort tyrion and says that he suffered much worse with the north. jaime asks tyrion if he did it and tyrion says he would never kill his brother's son, no matter how despicable he turned out to be. tyrion asks jaime to set him free, but jaime says he can't because of treason and says the trial will get to the truth. tyrion knows that the trial doesn't matter: cersei won't rest until tyrion is dead. jaime then goes on to him believing that sansa had something to do with the murder, but tyrion is again adamant that sansa is innocent.[38] tyrion is cross examined by prince oberyn martell, lord tywin lannister, and lord mace tyrell. tyrion's trial begins with the newly crowned king tommen recusing himself. instead, a group of three judges are appointed to oversee the trial: tywin lannister as presiding judge, lord mace tyrell of the reach, and prince oberyn. cersei has several witnesses testify against tyrion, such as meryn trant, grand maester pycelle, and varys. they all give strong (yet circumstantial) evidence of tyrion's guilt. he seems particularly hurt by varys's betrayal, so much that he asks the spymaster whether he remembered what he had told him after the battle of the blackwater (that tyrion had saved the city and that varys knew it even if history wouldn't). varys sadly tells tyrion that he never forgets anything.[39] jaime tells tyrion of tywin's compromise. after an hour's recess, jaime comes to tyrion and tells him that, when the verdict of guilty is pronounced, he must ask for mercy. secretly, jaime had made a deal with tywin: in exchange for sparing tyrion, jaime will renounce his vows and return to casterly rock as tywin's heir, while tyrion will be sent to live out his days on the wall with the night's watch. tyrion points out that their father wanted this outcome all along. however, cersei calls in her last witness: shae. a hurt tyrion can do little as shae reveals his sexual pleasures in front of the court and his supposed desire to bed sansa stark, which she agreed to let him do if he killed the king for her. tyrion's anger at the betrayal leads him to finally lash out. with tears in his eyes, he angrily states that he had saved king's landing from stannis, not tywin or the tyrells, and now wishes he had just let stannis kill them all, especially after how easily they turned against him for allegedly murdering a king who, in all irony, they hated and despised.[39] tyrion demands a trial by combat. tywin attempts to silence tyrion but his son turns on cersei, declaring that he was innocent of killing joffrey but wished he had, adding with gleeful venom that he derived more relief from watching her "vicious bastard" of a son die than he could have gotten from a thousand lying whores. he then turns on tywin and calls the trial a farce and that it is really a repetition of the trial he had been on since he was born: for the crime of being a dwarf. not wanting to submit to the "justice" that was being served on him, tyrion demands a trial by combat. the court exploded in shock and multitudes of gasps, and amid it all tywin and tyrion lannister lock eyes, with a tense glare of rage on tywin's face, and a subtle grin of triumph on tyrion's.[39] jaime declines tyrion's plea. in his cell, tyrion and jaime discuss tyrion's fate and the irony of lord tywin striking down both his heirs if jaime were to die being tyrion's champion, jaime angry with tyrion for not seizing tywin's offer of the night's watch, to which tyrion replies that shae's lies ended that possibility. jaime declines to be tyrion's champion as he cannot fight well enough with his left hand.[40] bronn refuses to be tyrion's champion in trial by combat. tyrion asks jaime to bring him bronn. bronn arrives in the clothes of a lord, with news that he is to marry lollys stokeworth, a noble's daughter, in a match arranged by cersei. he will not fight the mountain (whom cersei has chosen for her champion), believing clegane to be too dangerous for him to face, and bids farewell to tyrion. they share a final handshake and part on good terms.[40] later, tyrion is approached by oberyn martell, who tells tyrion of their first encounter: as children, oberyn and his sister elia were told stories of the "monster" that had been born to tywin lannister. during a childhood visit to casterly rock, cersei showed tyrion, with great ceremony, to oberyn and elia. oberyn tells tyrion that, to his disappointment, he saw no monster, just a baby. cersei told oberyn and his sister that tyrion killed her mother, and then cruelly assaulted tyrion until jaime stopped her. oberyn tells tyrion that he seeks justice for the death of his sister, and tyrion replies that he will "find none here." oberyn counters that he is in the perfect place; all those he means to bring to justice for his sister's murder are close at hand. intending to start his revenge with gregor clegane, oberyn offers his service as tyrion's champion in the coming trial by combat.[40] jaime visits tyrion before his trial by combat. on the day of the trial by combat, jaime visits tyrion in his cell. they discuss their dead cousin orson lannister and his habit of smashing beetles with rocks for no reason. tyrion says he used to watch orson for long periods of time and think about the reason behind his actions, but he hasn't come to any conclusion why all those countless beetles had to be killed. when jaime says he doesn't know either, bells start tolling and he wishes tyrion good luck.[41] bound in shackles, tyrion is taken to watch the duel of oberyn and the mountain. before the fight starts, he advises oberyn against drinking wine, but he doesn't pay a lot of attention to him. as the red viper starts winning, he exchanges a few hopeful looks with his brother and feels happy when oberyn pins ser gregor to the ground with his spear, but his hopes are quickly shattered in the moment when the mountain knocks oberyn down and crushes his head, confessing his own war crimes and sealing tyrion's fate. as tyrion is struck with horror, tywin states that the gods have made their will known and tyrion is sentenced to death.[41] tyrion is surprised when jaime comes to his cell in the night and leads him through a secret passageway within the castle. he tells tyrion that he will meet with varys, who has arranged for him to escape to the free cities. the brothers warmly embrace, believing it will be the last time they see each other. jaime leaves him with a familial kiss on the cheek. instead of proceeding directly to his liaison, tyrion first enters the chambers of their father.[42] tyrion kills shae after finding her in tywin's bed. he finds a woman in his father's bed, and is shocked to discover that it is shae, moaning tywin's name and calling for her "lion," the name she had previously called tyrion. when shae spots him, she grabs a paring knife and tries to stab him. she fails to do so but slaps him and scratches at his face. they struggle, and tyrion eventually strangles her with tywin's gold chain she is wearing. the act is done both in self defense and in jealous rage, and tyrion is immediately distraught once he fully realizes what he has done.[42] tyrion kills his father. after apologizing to shae's corpse, he takes joffrey's crossbow and confronts his father while in his privy chamber. he forces his father to admit to his many wrongdoings against him. tywin tries to placate tyrion, saying he admires tyrion's will to survive but when he refers to shae as a "whore" once too often after having been warned not to do so on pain of death, tyrion kills him with two bolts to the chest. he proceeds to the chamber of lord varys, who stows him away within a crate upon a ship, and decides to accompany him at the last moment.[42] tyrion arrives in pentos. with the aid of varys, tyrion is brought to the home of illyrio mopatis in pentos. varys attempts to persuade tyrion to assist in his goal to restore house targaryen to the iron throne, but tyrion simply wishes to drink himself to death after all that he has been through, renouncing his lordship and caring nothing for the stability of westeros, a country he is done with after nothing but pain from its politics.[43] varys and tyrion in pentos. later, tyrion questions varys on his motives for setting him free. varys reveals his brother jaime had asked him to and that he did for the benefit of the seven kingdoms. varys then states that his goal was to bring peace and prosperity upon the kingdoms where those without power would never be prey to those who do; tyrion merely states in a jaded tone that the former will always become prey to the latter, which is how the powerful become and stay that way in the first place, rising to power by taking advantage of those weaker than themselves. the two discuss that the seven kingdoms needs a ruler stronger than tommen, but gentler than stannis. tyrion wishes varys luck on trying to find the right man, but varys makes tyrion one final offer. varys tells him that he can simply drink himself to death here in pentos, or ride with him to meereen to meet daenerys targaryen. after a moment, tyrion agrees.[43] tyrion and varys discuss on their way to meereen. tyrion and varys depart pentos in a large carriage. tyrion remains despondent, and as he promised, he is continuing to drink himself into a stupor. varys explains that they are traveling to meereen by way of volantis. varys points out that tyrion was an effective ruler when he was acting hand of the king, and that each of them were outsiders due to their deformities (a eunuch and a dwarf). they enjoyed accumulating power, he says, but they also wall themselves off from other people, like hiding inside of a large carriage as they are now   but deep down, they were never satisfied being separate from society. tyrion remains depressed and continues to insist that he's tired of being confined in a box of some sort. varys, however, again warns him that he must remain hidden and it is unsafe to be seen publicly: cersei has promised a lordship to any man who brings her his head. tyrion scoffs and rhetorically asks if cersei is going to kill every dwarf in the world in the hope of eventually catching him.[44] tyrion and varys walk along the long bridge. after days of confinement in the carriage, an impatient tyrion eventually opts to get through volantis on foot. the pair move through the long bridge's markets, where varys explains the meaning of the various tattoos volantene slaves must sport. varys nearly loses tyrion, but finds him observing the sermon of a red priestess. tyrion says he is curious, since thoros of myr was the only red priest in king's landing. the red priestess evangelizes in high valyrian, telling the tale of how she was once a slave herself. she preaches of a prophesied savior, a dragon queen. tyrion's interest in the scene wanes when the priestess stares directly into his eyes.[45] tyrion is captured by jorah on a brothel in volantis. tyrion next leads varys to a brothel. catching sight of a prostitute dressed as daenerys, varys tells tyrion that a woman who inspires both sermons and whores is probably worth meeting. tyrion woos a dark haired prostitute, but when she finally agrees to service him, he finds that he can't bring himself to patronize her. he then goes to urinate off the side of the bridge, with varys losing sight of him. as tyrion finishes, he is abducted by jorah mormont, who declares that he is taking him to "the queen."[45] tyrion is held hostage by jorah. now at the mercy of his captor, tyrion is thrown into a stolen boat by jorah and they set sail for meereen. en route, tyrion pesters jorah with muffled whining until he relents and removes tyrion's gag. tyrion notices that they are traveling east and not west towards cersei in king's landing. jorah reveals that he is taking tyrion to the queen he serves, daenerys targaryen. tyrion is pleasantly surprised and tries to convince jorah that they are on the same side since he was traveling to meet daenerys anyway. he accurately deduces who jorah is by his appearance and equipment, and correctly assumes that jorah must have been banished by daenerys because she discovered that he was spying on her for varys. tyrion mockingly asks jorah if he really believes that he will earn a pardon for simply delivering him to daenerys, believing the opposite outcome just as likely. fed up with his captive, jorah strikes tyrion across the face to keep him quiet.[46] tyrion travels through old valyria. as jorah and tyrion continue their journey to meereen, and following jorah's violent reaction to a previous conversation, tyrion tries to civilize their relationship and asks where they are. as jorah stands up to look at the foggy ruins on the horizon, tyrion deduces that they are going to pass through the remains of old valyria, a shorter route to meereen and one which pirates will avoid because of valyria's reputation. tyrion is apprehensive, but still excited to see the ruins of what was once the greatest civilization in the world. as they catch glimpses of domes, towers and aqueducts, tyrion recites a poem about the doom of valyria, with jorah joining in at the end. suddenly, through the fog, they see drogon fly into view. although he had been hearing about the dragons for some time, tyrion is still awed to see one in person   though the beast does not notice them.[47] tyrion is attacked by stone men en route to meereen. they are suddenly attacked by stone men, men whose greyscale infection has reached its pinnacle and transformed them into feral monsters. during the fight, tyrion falls overboard and dragged under by a stone man, but he is rescued by jorah and they make it to a beach, where tyrion regains consciousness. jorah finally frees tyrion from his binds and notices that none of the stone men managed to touch him. tyrion thanks jorah for saving his life, and they decide to seek out a fishing village to acquire another boat, or walk the rest of the way to meereen. jorah tells tyrion to get some rest as he goes for firewood, but unbeknownst to tyrion, jorah has been infected with greyscale.[47] tyrion tells jorah about his father's death. tyrion and jorah continue their quest to meereen on foot. tyrion is annoyed that they didn't find any villages to steal a boat or supplies from as jorah had hoped, so they're slowly walking and only have berries and roots to eat. the topic of just why tyrion was even in volantis comes up, and tyrion is surprised that jorah did not ask earlier: he explains that he actually fled from westeros because he killed his own father. he says he did it because his father tried to have him executed for a crime he didn't commit, and then he found his father screwing the woman he loved. tyrion then says that despite how miserable jorah is now, at least he can say that he had a good father. jorah asks how he could have known his father jeor mormont, but tyrion explains he visited the wall once and met him: he was a great leader who seemed to genuinely care about all of his men, a rare thing in the world, but now as the eulogy for night's watch members goes, "the world will not see his like again." jorah is shocked to realize he means that his father is dead. tyrion becomes apologetic and says he thought that jorah knew already. jorah asks how he died: tyrion says he only knows the report he heard, which said that his father led an expedition beyond the wall, but there was a mutiny, and jeor was murdered by his own men. jorah processes this in silent grief, then changes the subject by saying that they have to keep moving.[48] jorah and tyrion are captured by slavers. tyrion openly questions jorah's motives, and when jorah claims that he came to believe in daenerys when he saw her emerge from the fire unharmed with the dragon hatchlings, tyrion is convinced, but still expresses doubt as to whether or not daenerys will be a good ruler, given that her family was known for succumbing to madness due to their compound inbreeding, particularly her father, whom many still call the mad king. however, they are spotted and captured by slavers bound for volantis. the lead slaver, malko, deems tyrion as useless and orders his throat cut and his penis removed to be sold to a cock merchant (as he believes dwarf cocks bring good luck). tyrion, however, convinces them to do it when they have reached the cock merchant, buying himself some time, and when malko mentions that daenerys has re opened the fighting pits in meereen, tyrion successfully convinces malko to take them to meereen in order to put jorah, who is a renowned westerosi fighter, in the fighting pits and make them rich.[48] tyrion convinces yezzan to buy him. on the outskirts of meereen, after jorah is sold to yezzan zo qaggaz, tyrion attempts to convince yezzan to buy him as well, and viciously beats his captor with his own chain to prove his worth. yezzan relents and buys tyrion, but mostly for his comedic value. they are taken to daznak's pit, a small fighting pit, which will celebrate the opening of the games. when they hear that daenerys is present, jorah immediately enters the fight in the arena, while tyrion struggles to cut his chain until a guard comes and does it for him. tyrion enters the arena just as jorah is being taken away (since daenerys still hasn't forgiven him), and reveals himself as jorah's "gift." he introduces himself as tyrion lannister, and meets daenerys face to face at last.[49] tyrion explains his family tensions to daenerys. both tyrion and jorah are brought before daenerys inside the great pyramid of meereen. daenerys initially advocates executing tyrion as revenge against the lannisters for betraying her family, but tyrion points out that he killed his mother in childbirth and shot his father in the heart before fleeing. she asks him advice on what to do with jorah. tyrion persuades her to spare him, but suggests banishing him again, since he did effectively betray her trust.[3] tyrion and daenerys discussing matters of family and politics. later, while having wine, tyrion and daenerys agree that they both had cruel fathers, and tyrion promises to explain why he killed tywin someday, should she decide to spare him. tyrion admits that though he believes daenerys is no better than her father, he admits that he traveled to meereen because varys convinced him that she may very well be the best monarch for the seven kingdoms. he believes that varys was correct in his assessment, and notes that varys is the only person he can trust, aside from his brother jaime. the mention of jaime, who killed her father, prompts daenerys to suggest executing tyrion, but tyrion reacts with indifference, claiming that he was ready to drink himself to death in pentos and still welcomes death if daenerys prefers it, given the rate of how his own life had become as of late. daenerys ultimately decides not to kill or banish tyrion, but to take him as an advisor on how to reclaim the iron throne. tyrion suggests that daenerys stay in meereen, as she may do more good in essos than in westeros. daenerys assures tyrion that she will stay in meereen to ensure there is no more slavery but states that essos is not her home. tyrion counters that no one will support her in westeros, but daenerys somewhat idealistically declares that the common people will support her. tyrion generously assumes that this will happen (which it generally doesn't), but then he reminds daenerys that meereen has been in a state of chaos without the combined support of the great masters and the smallfolk, and extends this to westeros and its great houses. he notes that houses targaryen and stark are effectively dead or scattered due to the combined actions of their "two terrible fathers." neither house lannister nor house baratheon of dragonstone will ever support her claim in light of their histories with the targaryens. tyrion says that leaves house tyrell, who originally sided with the crown in robert's rebellion and might be willing to help her due to cersei's recent schemes against them, but that it still isn't enough. daenerys stubbornly likens the great houses, including her own house targaryen, to spokes on a wheel: one on top of the others, and on and on, crushing the commoners beneath them in their struggle for supremacy. tyrion sarcastically warns that others have dreamt of stopping the wheel, but daenerys clarifies that she isn't planning to stop the wheel, she intends to break it.[3] daenerys, hizdahr and tyrion discuss the brutality of tradition. tyrion attends the opening of the great games in daznak's pit along with daenerys, hizdahr zo loraq, daario naharis, and missandei. he playfully banters with hizdahr and daario about which fighters will win owing to what advantages, such as strength or speed, and after hizdahr lectures daenerys about the requisitions of holding onto power, tyrion coldly quips that tywin would have liked him. in the second round of the games, jorah appears as one of the combatants and is almost killed. tyrion urges daenerys to stop the games before jorah is killed, but he is saved by another fighter.[50] tyrion is left struck with awe as daenerys escapes the pit on her dragon. suddenly, a surprise attack by the sons of the harpy devastates the fighting pit. tyrion saves missandei by killing one of the sons and he runs with daenerys and the others into the center of the fighting pit, where they are surrounded. he later watches in obvious shock when drogon enters the pit and sets several sons ablaze. when daenerys flies off on drogon's back, tyrion is left struck with awe as he watches her fly through the sky on dragon back.[50] jorah, daario, and tyrion lament the whereabouts of daenerys. in the aftermath, tyrion sits in the throne room with daario and jorah. grey worm recovers and missandei introduces him to tyrion. tyrion concludes that since drogon flew north, he and daario must head in that direction if they are to find daenerys, getting into an argument with jorah over his status as a lannister and jorah having betrayed and been exiled twice by daenerys. daario breaks up the argument, convincing tyrion to trust jorah and allow him to come, since he did save daenerys in the fighting pit, but at the same time questions tyrion's skills in tracking and combat and deeming him unfit to join in such a dangerous mission. instead, daario advises tyrion to stay in meereen and rule on daenerys's behalf, knowing of his political skills from his time as hand of the king, with grey worm enforcing tyrion's rule with the unsullied and missandei as interpreter, wishing him luck on keeping the city together.[51] tyrion and varys watch over meereen later on, tyrion, from atop the pyramid, watches daario and jorah depart meereen to find daenerys. he is joined by varys, who playfully teases him for "abandoning" him and admits he found him through his little birds. varys congratulates tyrion for winning daenerys's favor without him. varys alludes to the political instability in meereen, and the opportunities it presents for tyrion. through their bantering, they vow to help each other hold meereen together. tyrion then wholeheartedly admits that he missed varys.[51] tyrion and varys stroll the streets of meereen. in an effort to find the sons of the harpy, tyrion and varys explore the streets of meereen disguised as merchants, believing they can do more at street level than inside the great pyramid. upon meeting a woman and her baby, tyrion offers some money to feed her child. due to his bad valyrian, however, she refuses, believing tyrion intends to eat her baby until varys corrects her. while pondering their predicament and what daenerys' absence means to the people of meereen, they witness zanrush preaching to some of the former slaves to fight for their own freedom instead of relying on daenerys. after surmising that the harpies have a leader, tyrion and varys encounter several citizens running away from something. investigating the disturbance, they are shocked to find that the sons of the harpy have burned every ship in the harbor.[52] tyrion decides to visit viserion and rhaegal. later, in the great pyramid, tyrion learns that the unsullied have yet to find the person responsible for burning the meereenese fleet, astapor and yunkai have fallen back into the slave trade and daenerys' remaining dragons haven't been eating since their mother left. tyrion guesses that they are morose because they are in captivity. when missandei asks how he knows this, he replies, "that's what i do. i drink and i know things." tyrion decides to meet the dragons and free them, knowing they will be better off this way.[53] accompanied by varys, tyrion ventures alone into the catacombs and encounters viserion and rhaegal for the first time. despite their initial hostility towards him, tyrion remains calm, assuring them he is a friend of daenerys and only wants to help. he manages to earn their trust and unshackle them, all the while telling them the story of how he wanted a dragon for his nameday when asked by his uncle what he'd like for a gift, only to be disappointed by uproarious laughter from his family and the truth from his father, that they'd been extinct for a century. after the dragons depart, tyrion quickly exits the pit with varys, asking the eunuch to punch him 'in the face' the next time he has a crazy idea.[53] tyrion tries to initiate small talk with missandei and grey worm. later, while waiting for varys as he turns one of the sons of the harpy's allies to their cause, tyrion tries to pass the time with missandei and grey worm by engaging in small talk and playing one of his drinking games, without success. once varys arrives, tyrion learns that the masters of yunkai, astapor and volantis are collectively funding the sons of the harpy. in order to intimidate the masters into backing down, tyrion asks varys to arrange a meeting with them.[54] tyrion invites daenerys's enemies to meereen. tyrion, grey worm, missandei and varys prepare to meet with representatives of the good masters of astapor, the wise masters of yunkai, and the slave trading city of volantis, who have all arrived by sea. as the diplomatic mission enters the harbor, grey worm advocates using military force, though tyrion reminds him this has already been tried, and this time they must "make peace with our enemies." when tyrion explains that he is able to empathize with slaves because he spent one day as a slave, missandei counters that he has not experienced slavery enough.[55] tyrion discusses negotiations with the slave masters. in the meeting chamber, the emissaries are revealed to be tyrion's former slave master yezzan zo qaggaz, the yunkai'i wise master razdal mo eraz, and the volantene representative belicho paenymion. yezzan remarks at how tyrion, a dwarf slave, has quickly climbed to the top of the great pyramid. the slave trading cities offer to give daenerys and her allies a large amount of money and ships if they leave slaver's bay. when missandei defends dany's actions in liberating slaves, razdal contends that slavery has existed in the region for centuries. after hearing their offer and reminding them there are other ways to make money, tyrion proposes a counter offer. while meereen would remain a free city, he offers to give the other cities of slaver's bay a seven year time limit to phase out slavery and compensate all slave owners. however, they must end all support for the sons of the harpy, regardless of their denial of it. he then cautions them that they will not get a better offer. at the meeting's conclusion, tyrion gives them a trio of prostitutes and time to consider his offer.[55] tyrion and his entourage are later confronted by a group of former slaves in the meereen throne room. a freedman demands to know when daenerys will return, while another is appalled at the idea of tyrion negotiating with slave traders. tyrion insists he is doing his best to rule the city in her absence while they wait. instead, the freedmen refuse to listen to the foreign dwarf and look to grey worm and missandei for reassurance. despite their misgivings, they both publicly back tyrion in front of the freedmen.[55] in private, tyrion assures missandei and grey worm that he is serving daenerys' interest by taking advantage of the masters' own arrogance, but that he cannot end slavery overnight. grey worm, however, warns tyrion that the slavers cannot be reasoned with and will most likely take advantage of him instead, since they already do it for a living.[55] tyrion acquires religious support. nevertheless, the situation in meereen begins to stabilize, with almost no incidents involving the freedmen or sons of the harpy, though tyrion reminds them they need to convince the meereenese that everything has been done with daenerys' blessing, as the masters could use tyrion and varys' foreign status against them to fully reclaim slaver's bay. to accomplish this, tyrion invites kinvara, high priestess of the red temple of volantis, to negotiate spreading the word of daenerys's achievements. to tyrion's surprise, kinvara appears to fully agree with supporting tyrion's goals, believing that daenerys is the prince that was promised. varys is more skeptical, however, being suspicious of any practitioners of magic, and points out that melisandre had already promised the same to stannis baratheon, who was ultimately defeated and killed. kinvara counters that the lord of light's human followers occasionally make mistakes, then shuts him down with knowledge of his castration. kinvara then assures tyrion that she will send the preachers and priests best suited to the task at hand.[56] tyrion bids varys farewell. when the red priests arrive at meereen to preach about daenerys, tyrion and varys are debating if their presence can maintain order throughout the city while walking through the markets. afterwards, varys tells tyrion that he is leaving on a secret expedition because daenerys will need more allies, before tyrion proclaims to varys that he is the most famous dwarf in the world.[57] in the great pyramid, tyrion wishes to celebrate with missandei and grey worm for the resurgence of meereen and to honor their queen. their celebration is cut short when a large fleet of slaver ships lay siege to the city. as the slavers continue to bombard meereen, tyrion allows grey worm to assume command. grey worm proposes that the unsullied must not go to the beach, preferring to wait until the slavers enter the great pyramid. at that moment, they hear movement on the roof. when they go to investigate, they discover that daenerys has returned on her dragon drogon.[57] the following day, tyrion explains the events in meereen during her absence to daenerys. despite the fact that they are under siege by the masters' fleet, he believes that his success in bringing about a resurgence of a slaveless meereen is the reason for their attack, because the masters could not let such an example succeed for fear that their slaves could rise up. daenerys declares that she will destroy the masters' armies, kill them all, and destroy their cities. tyrion disapproves and explains the similarities between this plan and the one her father had for king's landing when the lannisters were at his door. instead, he proposes a different solution.[58] tyrion joins daenerys in negotiations. accompanied by grey worm and missandei, tyrion and daenerys meet with the slave masters razdal, yezzan, and belicho to parley. believing victory is near, the slave masters demand that daenerys and tyrion surrender missandei and the unsullied to their masters, and her three dragons to be slaughtered before leaving slaver's bay. dany rejects their terms and orders drogon, viserion, and rhaegal to burn the slavers' fleet. as dany leads the counterattack on the back of drogon, tyrion chastises the slave masters for breaking his pact and demands that they surrender one of their own to be executed as punishment. when razdal and belicho try to offer up yezzan, tyrion orders grey worm to kill the two masters. however, he spares yezzan so yezzan can spread the word of daenerys's power. meanwhile, dany's dothraki horde wipes out the resurgent sons of the harpy.[58] after the battle, tyrion is present at the great pyramid while dany holds an audience with yara and theon greyjoy, who have just arrived in meereen with most of the iron fleet. knowing theon, tyrion chides him for mocking his height back at winterfell and for the alleged murders of bran and rickon stark. a penitent theon reiterates that he has paid for his crimes though tyrion is incredulous given that theon is standing there. yara offers to provide daenerys with a hundred ships if she helps them to defeat her uncle euron greyjoy and recognizes the independence of the iron islands. tyrion protests that if the iron islands gain independence, then the rest of the kingdoms will likely make that demand as well; dany states that they are welcome to try, and agrees to yara's terms, provided that the ironborn end all reaving and piracy of the mainland. when yara begrudgingly accepts, tyrion indicates his approval of the alliance, as daenerys has negotiated a strong position for herself.[58] dany and tyrion discuss her lack of sentimentality. in preparation for the invasion of westeros and entering its politics, tyrion advises daenerys to end her relationship with daario and leave him meereen with the rest of the second sons, which she does. tyrion attempts to console her on her loss of the relationship but admits he is not good at consoling. she agrees but she says she is more bothered that it was so easy for her to let daario go than by the actual loss of the relationship. tyrion tells her that daario is not the only man she ever loved and definitely will not be the last. he also implies that she already has the needed mind set for the terrifying game she is about to play with the lords of westeros.[6] daenerys makes tyrion her hand. tyrion goes on to admit that for years he has believed in nothing but, in the months in her service, he has come to believe in daenerys and that he is ready to live again. touched, daenerys presents him with a replica of the hand's brooch and formally names him hand of the queen. moved to near tears, tyrion kneels before her. some time later, tyrion stands with daenerys on the flagship of her massive armada, looking ahead to returning to westeros.[6] news of tyrion's appointment as hand to daenerys has also reached king's landing, news which cersei breaks to jaime when they make a list of their enemies.[59] tyrion arrives on dragonstone. tyrion arrives on dragonstone, accompanied by daenerys, missandei, varys, and grey worm. he follows daenerys from the shore of the island to the painted table of westeros, pulling down the standard of stannis baratheon and running her hands along the simplistically ornate throne before asking if they can begin planning her conquest.[59] as they begin planning for the conquest of westeros, tyrion cautions daenerys not to launch a direct assault on the city with her dragons or she will merely become queen of the ashes, to which daenerys concurs. tyrion witnesses as daenerys calls into question varys's allegiance, as his loyalty has shifted from king to king since the days when he served her father. the hand tries to defend his friend, insisting that varys had been the one to convince him over to their cause and that he had served her well since then, assisting his rule of meereen and securing the alliance of dorne and house tyrell. however, daenerys demands that varys explain himself without support from tyrion, who watches as the spider swears that he will be loyal to her as long as she keeps the people's best interests at heart. daenerys requests that varys not conspire against her if she should fail and that he try his hardest to dissuade her.[60] grey worm announces the arrival of melisandre, who brings them news of events in the north and jon snow's coronation as king, to tyrion's surprise. although somewhat skeptical of melisandre's prophecies, tyrion admits that he liked and trusted jon's character when they traveled to the wall together, and encourages daenerys to make an alliance with him.[60] tyrion clashes with ellaria during daenerys's council meeting. tyrion later joins daenerys for a council of war with missandei, varys, grey worm, olenna tyrell, the greyjoy siblings and ellaria sand. tyrion initially clashes with ellaria, as he knows she poisoned his niece myrcella and she blames him indirectly for oberyn's death. after daenerys stops their argument, tyrion helps her explain their plan to invade westeros: as cersei is trying to rally the lords to defend king's landing against a foreign army, daenerys' unsullied and dothraki will not attack the city or they will "prove her point."[60] tyrion explains his tactics. instead, the greyjoy fleet will ferry the dornish army north to lay siege to king's landing alongside the tyrell forces, trapping cersei and most of her army in the capitol and starving them out. meanwhile, in response to olenna's question of the use of daenerys's foreign soldiers, tyrion plans to have the unsullied sail around westeros and capture casterly rock, the true seat of house lannister's power. ellaria, yara greyjoy and olenna agree to follow this plan. all does not go as planned, however; on their way to dorne, yara's fleet is decimated by her uncle euron's iron fleet, and both she and ellaria are captured.[60] tyrion meets with jon snow, now king in the north. tyrion is later seen meeting with jon snow, davos seaworth, and their men, as they arrive in a small boat onto the shores of dragonstone. tyrion teases jon, calling him "the bastard of winterfell", to which jon retorts, calling tyrion "the dwarf of casterly rock." they greet each other warmly and seem to be happy to see each other again, exchanging friendly barbs back and forth. jon and his party are then forced to surrender their weapons, and they reluctantly do so. then, as the party is escorted towards the castle, a group of daenerys' soldiers whisk away their boat. jon and davos exchange looks of concern at this.[9] tyrion escorts the northern party to daenerys. as they make their way up the castle steps, jon and tyrion have a conversation about how they got to their respective positions, and how jon's followers must think he's crazy for going to dragonstone. tyrion concurs, stating that if he were jon's advisor, he would have advised against it, and cites that going south doesn't usually work out well for the starks, to which jon swiftly replies that he is not a stark. they are then suddenly interrupted when drogon swoops down towards them, and everyone is forced to duck for cover. jon takes a moment to recover from the sudden shock, as the party continues on their journey towards the castle.[9] daenerys's forward nature towards jon worries tyrion. as they reach the throne room, jon and davos begin to speak with daenerys as tyrion watches by her side. the meeting is very tense as both sides refuse to submit to the other's demands. tyrion plays an important moderating role by vouching for jon's integrity and character, helping to soften daenerys' attitude towards the insistent and unbowing king in the north. as the meeting is about to end on an unfavorable note, tyrion urges jon to simply bend the knee, reasoning that if westeros is doomed by the threat of white walkers, it makes no difference who he supports for the iron throne, especially if it will help him further his goals.[9] tyrion speaks with jon in private. the meeting is interrupted by varys who delivers news about their decimated greyjoy fleet. dany allows jon and davos to stay as "guests" until they can reach a proper agreement. later, tyrion meets with jon on the grounds of dragonstone. jon is unhappy that he is a prisoner while the night king and white walkers still pose a threat. tyrion encourages a despondent jon not to give up and confides that he trusts the word of jon and jeor mormont. tyrion also vouches for his queen and reassures jon that she is not like her father. tyrion also asks jon if there is something he can do to help. jon tells tyrion about the vein of dragonglass beneath dragonstone.[9] tyrion manages to convince a skeptical dany to allow jon to mine the dragon glass on the pretext that it will win her an ally. dany grants jon permission to mine the dragon glass and outfits him with the manpower and equipment to do so. at the chamber of the painted table, tyrion along with varys and missandei discuss euron greyjoy's destruction of yara's fleet. tyrion and missandei argue against daenerys' plan to lead her dragons on a mission to hunt and destroy euron's fleet, opining that she faces the prospect of death. tyrion then elaborates his plan to seize casterly rock using an underground tunnel. grey worm uses this tunnel to capture casterly rock, only to discover that the lannisters have withdrawn the bulk of their forces. euron's iron fleet attacks the targaryen ships, trapping the unsullied at casterly rock.[9] varys and tyrion inform daenerys that the unsullied succeeded in capturing casterly rock, only to then reveal the disaster which just occurred at highgarden as tyrion's military strategy fell apart. daenerys is furious and struggles to keep her temper, as now all three of her major allies in westeros are gone and all she has gained is a castle with no supplies. she snaps at tyrion, blaming his cautious strategy for losing them dorne, the iron islands (yara's forces), and now the reach. she then accuses tyrion of wanting to use a light hand against the lannisters because they're his own people. tyrion insists that they still have just enough ships left to at least shuttle the dothraki from dragonstone to the nearby mainland coast; even with the loss of all her other allies, her combined unsullied/dothraki forces are still the largest single army in westeros. daenerys fumes that her vast numbers are useless if she can't feed them all, as that was the reach's true strategic value. daenerys decides she has had enough of clever plans, declaring she will use the dothraki and her dragons in a direct assault on the red keep to destroy her enemies. tyrion urges her against this and when daenerys asks jon snow for his input, he agrees with tyrion to not attack king's landing.[61] tyrion watches as jaime is almost killed. daenerys decides to attack the lannister army en route to king's landing following their victory at the sack of highgarden, which would destroy expenses retrieved in the process, atop drogon. tyrion is present when she attacks the lannister forces outside king's landing during the battle of the goldroad, watching miserable as the dothraki massacre his kinsmen. when drogon is injured and is forced to land, tyrion watches in horror as jaime foolishly charges at daenerys on the battlefield and nearly incinerated by drogon, before being saved by bronn.[61] tyrion stands by daenerys's side during her judgment over the lannister and tarly ranks. in the aftermath of the battle, tyrion examines the damage on the battlefield and is present when daenerys offers the surviving lannister and tarly men a choice: kneel or die. when randyll tarly refuses, tyrion is quick to point out randyll's newfound loyalty to cersei, despite her role in annihilating house tyrell. randyll, in turn, denounces tyrion and his loyalty to daenerys, viewing her as a foreign invader. despite tyrion's insistence that randyll and dickon tarly be imprisoned or sent to the wall, daenerys ignores his advice, explaining that they already made their choice, and orders drogon to burn them alive.[62] tyrion discusses the battle of the goldroad with varys. back at dragonstone, tyrion discusses the aftermath of the battle with varys. though confident that daenerys is not her father, varys suggests that tyrion find a way to make her listen to his advice. when tyrion notices a message in his hand, varys says that it is for jon. at daenerys' subsequent council meeting, tyrion suggests capturing a wight north of the wall and bringing it back to cersei as proof of their true common enemy. to convince cersei to stand down, however, he must first appeal to jaime. davos agrees to smuggle tyrion into king's landing, but warns him of the consequences should the gold cloaks recognize him.[62] tyrion reunites with jaime. arriving at a secluded beach close to the red keep, tyrion remarks that he murdered his own father the last time he was in king's landing, with davos remarking that tyrion murdered his son the last time he visited the city. with time short, tyrion makes his way inside. in the cellar beneath the red keep, bronn arranges the meeting in the guise of a secret sparring session. tyrion commends jaime for outsmarting him at the siege of casterly rock, then does his best to explain his true motivations for murdering their father. when jaime demands to know the real reason for the meeting, tyrion explains that though daenerys' victory is inevitable, she is genuinely nothing like her father, and has a more important request for cersei.[62] upon returning to the beach, tyrion spots two gold cloaks near davos's boat, and is spotted in return. before the guards can arrest him, however, davos's companion quickly dispatches them. after tyrion is introduced to gendry, the three make their escape. tyrion later reunites with jorah mormont, his former traveling companion, and reminisces over their journey to meereen, after which tyrion gives jorah the coin used to pay for him by yezzan, hoping it will bring him luck for the wight hunt.[62] tyrion says jon is in love with dany. later, he and daenerys discuss heroism, daenerys telling him he is no hero. tyrion disagrees, and tries to explain how he received his scar by charging through the mud gate. daenerys interrupts him, stating she doesn't want him to be a hero, as they do stupid things and end up dead. she names drogo, daario naharis, jorah mormont and jon snow as examples, which tyrion notes, stating all four of these men fell in love with her. daenerys says jon snow doesn't love her, to which tyrion responds sarcastically he only stares at her longingly because he is hopeful for a successful military alliance. when daenerys calls jon too little for her, tyrion says that as far as heroes go, he is quite little. daenerys then says she knows tyrion is brave, as she wouldn't have chosen a coward as her hand.[63] daenerys and tyrion discuss the usage of fear. daenerys changes the subject, by saying if the wight hunt goes well, she'll finally get to meet cersei, who wants to kill her. tyrion notes that she would probably torture her first. he vows that if they go to the capital, they will go with the full capacity of their forces, and if someone even touches her, they'll burn the city to the ground. daenerys says she's probably planning a trap, but tyrion notes that cersei is probably thinking the very same thing about daenerys. when daenerys asks him if they should lay a trap, tyrion says it would be better to build a new world without mass murder. daenerys remarks that no war was won without it, which tyrion agrees but states that fear alone isn't the right way of ruling.[63] tyrion tells daenerys of his loyalty to her. when dany says aegon targaryen got quite a long way with fear, tyrion reminds her of her promise of breaking the wheel, which aegon built. tyrion then speaks about his meeting with jaime, where he promised to keep the lannister's forces in check if tyrion makes sure daenerys doesn't lose her temper. daenerys responds she does not lose her temper, to which tyrion replies she lost it when she killed the tarlys. she notes that tyrion takes his family's side once again. tyrion says he has to, as the only way to beat them is to think like them.[63] tyrion discusses children with daenerys. he states that he wants to serve daenerys for the long term, and wants to make sure that, after she is queen and broken the wheel, it stays broken after her death. he states that daenerys once said she believes she can't have children, but that there are other ways to name an heir. daenerys says he's been thinking of her death for quite a while, and angrily reminds him they lost dorne and highgarden because of his lack of planning for the short term. tyrion remains silent as daenerys says they will discuss this further after she is queen.[63] tyrion tries to stop daenerys from going beyond the wall. when daenerys receives a letter from gendry, asking for help with the wight hunt gone wrong, tyrion tries to stop her from going to the wall with her dragons, saying she is the most important person in the world, and she can't go to the most dangerous place in the world. he claims the group knew the risk when they left, and daenerys shouldn't try to save them. when she steps on drogon, she asks him what he would have her do. tyrion says that doing nothing is the hardest thing to do, but if she dies, everything and everyone would be lost. daenerys reminds him he told her to do nothing once, and having learned the hard way, she won't do this again. tyrion looks at her as she and her dragons dive off the cliff, heading for the wall.[63] after cersei agrees to a summit in the dragonpit at king's landing, tyrion and jon arrive in the capital with their various allies, while the unsullied and the dothraki amass outside the city walls to attack in case the truce gets broken. at the harbor, tyrion, varys, missandei, jon and davos nervously sail past euron greyjoy's fleet.[64] tyrion leads the targaryen entourage to the dragonpit. the group arrives and are escorted to the dragonpit, the location of the summit. tyrion reconnects with bronn, who concedes it is good to see him again. the pair greet podrick payne, who had arrived earlier with brienne of tarth. tyrion reminds podrick that he is no longer a westerosi noble after killing tywin and bronn that he will always pay more than what cersei will in return for his service. bronn rebuffs this, stating that if anything goes wrong during the parley, cersei will have bronn to thank for delivering her enemies to king's landing.[64] tyrion speaks to cersei at the parley. when cersei arrives, she glares hatefully at tyrion and quickly grows impatient that daenerys has not come with him   only for daenerys herself to make a dramatic arrival on dragonback moments later. tyrion opens the negotiations, but is quickly interrupted by euron greyjoy, who mocks him and threatens theon until jaime and cersei shut him down. tyrion points out that if all they wanted to do was fight each other to the death, they would never have agreed to this meeting. jon snow then reveals the threat posed by the night king and the army of the dead. although daenerys promises to uphold a truce with the lannisters until the night king has been dealt with, cersei dismisses their claim concerning the army of the dead, saying they are simply attempting to strengthen their position while she is standing down. tyrion replies that they have something to show her, and sandor clegane brings out the wight that was captured north of the wall. shaken by what she sees, cersei at first seems willing to accept a truce, but only if jon snow agrees to have the north remain neutral and support neither queen. to tyrion's dismay, jon replies that he cannot do so, as he has already declared for daenerys. in response, cersei leaves the summit. furious, tyrion rebukes jon for not being able to make a small lie in order to secure them a political and military advantage. he declares that he will go and speak with cersei alone   despite daenerys's protests that she will have him murdered   or else they will be right back where they started.[64] jaime warns tyrion of cersei. tyrion is escorted into the tower of the hand by gregor clegane; he meets jaime outside, who claims he tried to reason with cersei until she threw him out. tyrion then meets cersei inside the same office both he and their father once occupied, as hand of the king. cersei accuses him of having tried to bring down house lannister from the very beginning. although she finally acknowledges that tyrion did not kill joffrey, she reminds him that he did kill their father, and holds him responsible for the deaths of her other children, as she believed no one would have touched tommen or myrcella while tywin was alive. tyrion truthfully claims he was unaware of jon's bending the knee to daenerys and expresses sincere regret for the deaths of his nephew and niece, but cersei does not care, claiming he destroyed their house's future regardless of his intentions. angered, tyrion tries to goad her into having him killed, if she blames him for everything that has befallen her. cersei looks ready to give the order to ser gregor, but reluctantly relents. tyrion wonders why she allowed him to arrange the peace negotiations in the first place if she didn't expect anything to happen; cersei turns the question back at him, wondering why he supports daenerys as loyally as he does. cersei dismisses tyrion's assertions that daenerys is better at controlling her violent impulses than she is. she expresses the horror she felt when she saw the wight, and her desire to keep her loved ones safe from them at any cost. from this and her gestures, tyrion correctly deduces that she is pregnant with another incestuous child by jaime.[64] tyrion then returns to his allies at the dragonpit, where they are joined shortly after by his brother and sister. cersei claims she will agree to the truce and send the lannister forces north to fight alongside the starks and the targaryens. after a discussion at dragonstone over their journey to the north, tyrion accompanies his queen and jon snow aboard a ship that will take them to white harbor. on the voyage, tyrion witnesses daenerys allowing jon into her cabin, where the two of them give in to their mutual attraction and engage in a sexual encounter. concerned with the possible political consequences for his queen, tyrion walks away.[64] tyrion drinks with jaime before the impending battle. cersei tasks bronn with eliminating her brothers if they survive the war against the white walkers. tyrion reaches winterfell along with targaryen forces, in order to assist the north in the great war. when the northern lords are angry with jon for giving up his crown to daenerys, tyrion speaks up for jon, saying his efforts managed to secure them the "greatest army the world has ever seen" to defeat the night king. however, when tyrion reveals they allied with lannister forces, their anger erupts again.[65] tyrion finds sansa for the first time since they last saw each other at joffrey's wedding and note each other's new titles/ tyrion calls the wedding "a miserable affair", though sansa sardonically remarks, "it had its moments." she calls tyrion out for believing that cersei will honor the pledge to send the lannister forces north. she is disappointed in tyrion, saying she used to think tyrion was the cleverest man she ever met.[65] several days later, jaime arrives at winterfell after realizing cersei wasn't sending her forces to assist them. tyrion vouches for jaime, saying he knows him. daenerys replies, "like your sister?" but tyrion explains jaime came anyway, knowing how he'd be received. daenerys is furious with tyrion for not expecting cersei's betrayal, but is mollified by jorah. while preparing for the battle, tyrion, podrick, jaime, brienne of tarth, tormund and davos seaworth engage in drinking, with jaime knighting brienne. tyrion watches the white walkers' arrival from the battlements of winterfell.[66] tyrion celebrates the defeat of the dead. tyrion survives the battle of winterfell and some time later, he mocks jaime for sleeping with a bigger woman. they are, however, caught unawares by bronn, who has been sent by cersei to kill both her brothers. tyrion has his nose busted by bronn who hesitates to kill them, believing daenerys still has a good chance of winning, and states he has been promised riverrun as a reward. tyrion reminds him of his promise to double the price anyone paid to murder him, and promises to make him the lord of highgarden after the war, upon which he relents.[67] tyrion attempts to parley with cersei. he later takes part in planning the battle of king's landing. he, along with jon and others, convinces daenerys in besieging the city instead of using the dragons. after learning of jon's true parentage from sansa, he informs varys about it. all hopes for a peaceful surrender are quickly dashed, after the iron fleet's ambush and cersei having missandei executed, even though tyrion begs cersei to surrender, for the sake of her unborn child.[68] tyrion bids farewell to varys. while king's landing is being besieged by the unsullied, tyrion returns along with the queen to dragonstone. when jon returns to the island, tyrion overhears varys pleading with him to take the iron throne and informs daenerys about it, though he unsuccessfully begs for forgiveness for the spider. tyrion tells varys he was behind his betrayal being discovered, and bids a final goodbye to him, before he is burnt alive by drogon.[69] tyrion watches in horror as king's landing is destroyed. daenerys, who now believes she can only win westeros through fear, is seemingly persuaded by tyrion to stop attacking once king's landing surrenders. she informs tyrion that jaime had been captured while trying to sneak into the city, warning him not to fail her again or it will be the last time. before the battle of king's landing, tyrion secretly releases jaime. he convinces him to try to convince cersei to have the city surrender and flee with her to pentos to start a new life, for the sake of their unborn child. he also tearfully thanks jaime for being the only family member to treat him with love and not as a monster, before the brothers hug. however, tyrion's plan is foiled when after the city surrenders, daenerys has drogon burn king's landing and raze over the red keep, killing cersei and jamie in the process. tyrion stares in absolute horror at the untold destruction of the city.[69] tyrion wanders through the ruined king's landing. after the destruction of king's landing, tyrion, jon, and davos walk through the remains of the city, horrified by the devastation. tyrion decides to go to the red keep alone and goes down to the cellars where he discovers the dead bodies of his siblings and tears up. after daenerys finishes her speech on liberating the whole world, she confronts tyrion about him freeing his brother. in response, he states that she slaughtered a whole city, and removes his hand of the queen brooch before throwing it away in disgust. daenerys, furious at a further betrayal, orders him arrested.[7] jon later visits tyrion in his cell and they speak of daenerys's actions. tyrion admits he was wrong to betray varys who turned out right all along about her. jon struggles with what daenerys has become and wants to believe the war is done, trying to reason out her actions due to the various traumas she suffered but tyrion tries to make jon see the threat daenerys now is. tyrion tells him, "i know you love her. i love her too, but not as successfully as you, but i believed in her with all my heart. love is more powerful than reason." jon reflects, "love is the death of duty." tyrion further says that duty is the death of love. he realizes he's asking jon to do a terrible thing, but tells him it is also the right thing to save the people as daenerys is now the biggest threat. tyrion warns jon that daenerys will always view him as a threat to her rulership because he is the true heir to the throne. jon struggles with what tyrion is asking of him due to his love for daenerys. tyrion reminds jon of his sisters, expressing his belief that they will not bend the knee to daenerys. jon leaves, troubled.[7] tyrion is brought before the great council of westeros. jon tries but is unable to dissuade daenerys from her path of destruction and reluctantly assassinates her, upon which he is imprisoned. weeks later, tyrion is tried in the dragonpit by all the lords of the seven kingdoms. tyrion convinces grey worm to let the new king of the seven kingdoms punish jon, after the lords of westeros oppose the unsullied's desires to punish him. he then asks the gathering that they should choose the new monarch of the seven kingdoms and end the war once and for all. after some rejected ideas, he suggests bran stark to be named the new king, because he is the living memory of the world and it is stories that unite people.[7] despite concerns that bran could never sire any children, tyrion says it is for the better as heirs often don't make good kings. he proposes that all the lords of the seven kingdoms choose the new king, which is accepted by all except sansa. bran picks tyrion as his hand so as to charge him with atoning for his past mistakes in both supporting and committing treason against bran's predecessor. grey worm opposes it initially but relents.[7] tyrion tells jon of his exile. later, tyrion visits jon and informs him that a compromise has been reached and he is going back to the night's watch. jon accepts this and asks tyrion if what he did was right. "what we did," tyrion corrects. jon says it doesn't feel right. they bid farewell, tyrion telling jon they'll see each other again, saying he wants to "go pissing off the wall again" after serving for a few years as the hand. tyrion reforms the small council, now consisting of bronn, now the lord of highgarden, as master of coin, davos as master of ships, sam as grand maester and brienne as lord commander of the kingsguard. he also seems to have retrieved the silver hand brooch that was gifted to him by daenerys, indicating that despite having ended their relationship on bad terms, he still believed in who she used to be and the wheel she wanted to break.[7] tyrion discusses the vacant positions in the reformed small council. king bran however notices the position of masters of war, laws and whisperers are vacant, which tyrion assures will be filled before the king goes away to find drogon. they then move on to their primary tasks concerning the rehabilitation of king's landing, providing clean water, food to civilians, the reconstruction of the royal fleet and the ports. as bronn discusses using some of the crown's gold to rebuild the city's brothels, which is met with opposition, tyrion relates how he once brought 'a honeycomb and a jackass into a brothel.'[7] as the last surviving child of tywin lannister, tyrion has finally become lord of casterly rock, the title his father has been trying to deny him of for so many years.[7] tyrion is a highly intelligent man who recognized from an early age that his mind was his greatest weapon, due to being born a member of house lannister with the expectation of upholding his family's noble name, yet lacking the physical attributes possessed by his older siblings. thus, he has committed himself to possessing a sharp intellect in order to help make up for his dwarfism, and he is frequently able to use his superior intellect to get the better of those who initially look down upon him or weasel his way out of tight situations, though he is not above resorting to using his family name and enormous fortune to bolster his position. he has also shown himself to possess a keen mind for strategy, as is evidenced in his research into defending against sieges and successfully conducting the defense of king's landing during the battle of the blackwater. tyrion prides himself on his ability to read people as easily as he does books, and he has on many occasions easily gotten the better of not just joffrey and cersei but also experienced players such as littlefinger and pycelle. despite tyrion's harsh treatment at the hands of others over the years, he has managed to develop a thick skin and is able to brush off others' japes about his short stature; except; when coming from his father. tyrion advised jon snow how to handle his own bastard status, which reflects tyrion's own approach to life; take your impediment in stride and wear it like armor, so it cannot be used to hurt you. being born a dwarf and subject to ridicule for most of his life, tyrion has admittedly developed a soft spot for his fellow outcasts and has shown them kindness, such as having a saddle designed for the crippled bran stark allowing him to ride. being physically weak, tyrion is also upset; when the helpless are harmed. he was particularly enraged when janos slynt carried out an order to kill a defenseless baby girl, barra; because she was one of robert's bastards and as punishment had him exiled to the wall. tyrion is also genuinely loyal to those; who treat him; with love and respect. he also seems to have a level of honor and dignity that the rest of his family seem to lack; events such as the red wedding disgusted him, and he considered them to be crimes, though he did admit that; there was a certain level of "cheating" in war that he is comfortable with, the red wedding went beyond that. one of his most interesting and enduring friendships is with the eunuch varys, the master of whisperers. tyrion and varys connect on several levels: they are both social lepers because of a physical condition that most people treat with distaste, they are both brilliant intellectuals with a dry sense of humor, they both have a compassionate nature but are capable of being ruthless when necessary, and they are both fond of wine. although tyrion and varys were wary of each other at first, mainly; due to the extreme reputations they both maintained, they have developed trust over the course of their various adventures. but tyrion is not without his faults. he tends to overindulge in food, drink and sex in part to self medicate for the terrible treatment he had suffered most of his life; when overly stressed, upset or uncomfortable, he will quickly find the nearest container of wine or beer and consume most of it. tyrion can also act viciously if he feels he's been wronged; such as confining grand maester pycelle to the black cells for betraying him or, in his darkest hour, killing shae for testifying against him during his trial and having an affair with his father, and then going on to kill tywin himself. because his father and sister treated him like a social leper, tyrion craves love and acceptance and is genuinely hurt when this is denied him by others. tyrion has complex relationships with other members of his family, most of whom resent him and only thinly veil their contempt for his existence. his older sister cersei blames him for causing the death of their mother and has, as revealed during a conversation with oberyn, hated tyrion since his birth. his father, tywin shares cersei's resentment for tyrion; due to the death of his wife while birthing him, as joanna was the only person tywin ever loved. although tywin recognizes and respects tyrion's intellect, it does not lessen his prejudice towards his youngest son; by the same token tyrion fears and admires his father; but hates him for his inflexibility and unwillingness to show any love for any of his children. tywin also just thinks it is an embarrassment that; tyrion was born; with a physical disability, seeing it as a judgement from the gods meant to humiliate him; by his son's mere existence. only tyrion's older brother, jaime maintained a good relationship; with tyrion, admiring him for both his intellect and inability to let his diminished stature drag him down and he has frequently attempted to come to tyrion's defense; when his other family members treat him maliciously; making jaime the only member of his immediate family; who tyrion loves. tyrion harbors a mutual admiration for jaime, even naming him as his champion when he demanded a trial by combat while being held prisoner at the eyrie. but this cozy relationship had ended; when tyrion had killed their father, although they have reconciled; since then. the last time they were together, tyrion tearfully thanked his brother for being the only lannister to treat him like a brother, not a monster and that; jaime had helped tyrion survived his childhood. despite tyrion's poor and mutually hateful relationship; with his sister, cersei, he was noted to have had a very good relationship; with at least two of her children, myrcella and tommen. this is seen where mrycella showcased active care, affection, love and worry for tyrion and; when he had returned safely back to king's landing, she; made sure to happily state that; she was glad he had survived alongside tommen. tyrion himself reciprocates her affection and love and; despite his relationship; with their mother, he truly cared for them. as seen where tyrion was enraged upon learning of mrycella's death and angerly argued; with ellaria sand; due to her hand in her death. after tyrion had killed shae and his father, he becomes a broken man; tyrion had lost the will to live. traumatized; by killing the woman he had loved and losing his lordship, influence and fabulous wealth, he becomes more cynical and pessimistic, and was content to just drink himself to death instead of helping varys to aid daenerys targaryen in getting the iron throne. tyrion becomes convinced in the futility of everything, gaining a negative and fatalistic outlook on the past, and the future; to the point of suicidal, as well gains a lower view for matters he dealt with high esteem and importance beforehand in the past; such as the great houses or the bid for the iron throne. even; when meeting daenerys face to face, tyrion had explained thatl he was still content to die. but whilst helping; with the chaos in meereen and keeping daenerys from becoming like her father in her ruthlessness, he regains his will to live. he also finally finds something to believe in, as he believes in daenerys. his sense of humor is more muted and cynical than; before; but this may be the result of his no longer being able to rely on his family title for protection and influence, and having to earn his merits with daenerys on his brains alone. although tyrion's skills; with political maneuvering, administration and diplomacy are extremely impressive, his record as a military strategist and tactician are more mixed. in this respect, he is similar to his father, although unlike tywin, tyrion's lack of skill on the battlefield has more to do with his unwillingness to inflict heavy loss of life on either side. he achieved a successful ambush at the battle of the blackwater; with his wildfire trap and led his troops personally on a sortie; but this alone was still not enough to win the battle; without help from tywin and the tyrells; indeed, the massive casualties; resulting from the wildfire shook him and (presumably); made him reluctant to use; such a devastating weapon again. this in turn; made him somewhat overly cautious in his strategy to help daenerys win against cersei. as a result, most of his battle plans; with the exception of capturing casterly rock, failed, leading daenerys to lose her patience; with his strategy and take matters; into her own hands. despite this, tyrion had played a valuable role in developing and solidifying the alliance between daenerys and jon snow, the king in the north. tyrion is somewhat of a pacifist in his heart. this is evident, when he several times advised daenerys not to resort to violence; in order to solve problems, though this was also an attempt to; make sure that; she doesn't become like her father. he always desires a less violent approach to matters, only resorting to it; when there is no other way. tyrion lannister by roman "amok" papsuev.© in the a song of ice and fire novels, tyrion is in his mid twenties when the events of the series begin, whereas in the show his age is not mentioned. however, the age gap between him and his siblings is smaller: in the books, tyrion was born when cersei and jaime were 7, while in the show, they were 4. this was likely to accommodate the actors: peter dinklage is four years older than lena headey and one year older than nikolaj coster waldau. as well as being a dwarf, tyrion is misshapen and often described as ugly and having eyes of two different colors, one green and one black. he is described as having a huge disproportionate head and an pronounced ungainly waddle when he walks. his hair is lank and very pale, but when he lets his beard grow in it comes in as a mixture of blonde and black hairs. in the beginning of the tv series, actor peter dinklage insisted on not having a beard, because he felt that bearded dwarfs are a fantasy stereotype, though he agreed to grow a beard from the fifth season onwards. cersei hated tyrion ever he was born, unjustly blaming him (like their father) of their mother's death, and also due to maggy's prophecy about the "valonqar"; she hurt him on several occasions. jaime, on the other hand, always treated tyrion kindly (in an argument between them in a clash of kings, cersei outright states the only reason she has never tried to have tyrion killed is because jaime would never forgive her for it). ever since he was a child, tyrion has been interested in dragons. he used to dream of riding a dragon, imagining he was some lost targaryen princeling, or a valyrian dragonlord. he once asked his uncles gerion and tygett for one as a nameday present, and was devastated to hear that the last dragon had died a century ago. he eagerly reads any accounts he can find about dragons, though most of those are idle tales. on the way to volantis, the sellsword griff orders tyrion to set down all he knows of dragonlore; the task is formidable, but tyrion labors at it diligently. the thought about meeting daenerys and her dragons makes tyrion relive his childhood dreams. tysha was reported to be the daughter of a crofter rather than a wheelwright (this may have been for the benefit of north american audiences who are less likely to know what a crofter is) and the marriage took place when he was only 13 years old. he bought them a little cottage where they lived as man and wife for their two week marriage, before his father had it annulled. tywin not only had 50 guards rape her, but then ordered tyrion to have sex with her as well, giving her a gold piece as a lannister is worth more. at the battle on the green fork, tyrion is not knocked out by his own men. in fact he leads with distinction, holding the line under great adversity. later when he tells his father that the plan to kill him by putting him in the vanguard (under the command of ser gregor clegane) failed, tyrion learns that his father had put him there hoping that an inexperienced tyrion with undisciplined hill tribesmen would break and run to be pursued into a trap by the stark forces. tyrion holding the line had ruined the plan. it is a combination of this along with his reading of the situation they face in the war, and the fact that jaime may not be retrievable, that makes tywin decide to make use of tyrion as acting hand. tyrion realizes that tywin is preparing for the worst, that the starks might well kill jaime as revenge for eddard's murder, so he is finally giving tyrion real power. when tyrion relieves janos slynt of command of the gold cloaks, it is ser jacelyn bywater or "ironhand" who becomes their new commander, not bronn. it is varys, not tyrion, who comes up with the suggestion to send joffrey some prostitutes to soften his temper, but the results are not shown. tyrion does not send littlefinger to catelyn at renly's camp with lord eddard's bones and an offer for the release of jaime (though baelish is sent to treat with the tyrells after renly's death). the bones are sent with cleos frey (replaced by alton lannister in the series) to riverrun along with unacceptable peace terms and a force of 100 lannister soldiers, that hide four men tyrion has sent to break jaime out, an escape attempt that fails. shae is not brought to the tower of the hand; instead she is put in a manse that tyrion can approach by using a secret tunnel from a brothel. in the aftermath of the riots in king's landing and as stannis's troops advance on the city, tyrion arranges shae to become lollys stokeworth's servant to have an excuse to bring her into the red keep, both for her protection and to keep her close. the most important of the defenses for the city that tyrion builds is a huge chain that stretches across the whole of blackwater rush, to be raised after stannis's fleet enters to trap them inside with the wildfire. in the book's version of the battle of blackwater, tyrion has almost his entire nose cut off by ser mandon moore's sword swipe; the tv series only included the deep scar across his face (which as also present in the books). as peter dinklage explained, "i know, for fans of the books, that tyrion loses his nose in the battle. but it would be next to impossible and very expensive to do that on television, and i would be wearing a green sock [on my nose, to digitally remove it with greenscreen], i think, for the next however many years, which i don't know how that would be on set. but yeah, the digital artist would have a lot of work on their hands. so i think we came up with a really good solution."[70] in the official blooper reel for season 4, when "action" is shouted and a stage hand closes the clapperboard right in front of dinklage's face, he started jokingly pretending that board was held too close and cut his nose off.[71] in a storm of swords, when joffrey is poisoned, cersei is quick to blame tyrion and have him put on a farcical show trial, which leads him to demand a trial by combat. as this occurs around the same time jaime returns to the capital, tyrion confers with his uncle kevan while in custody, and it is kevan who persuades tywin to spare tyrion and send him to the night's watch. after oberyn martell is killed and tyrion is sentenced to death, he is freed by jaime, who goes on to reveal that his marriage to tysha was actually a proper marriage and he had been forced by tywin to make it look like it had been staged. enraged at such a betrayal, tyrion vows revenge on jaime, cersei and tywin, spitefully but falsely telling jaime that he killed joffrey, and it is for this reason that he confronts and kills shae and then tywin while he is on the privy (in the television series, he kills tywin for shae, which left some fans confused as to why tyrion would kill his own father for a woman who committed the ultimate betrayal against him and who he himself had just killed). his story ends just after he kills tywin, and unlike the end of the fourth season, it is left unrevealed if he escaped westeros or not. tyrion does not appear in the fourth book, a feast for crows, and his whereabouts are not revealed, though he is mentioned several times, particularly due to cersei having placed a bounty on his head, and also cersei's increasing paranoia that tyrion is still hiding somewhere in the red keep, waiting for the right moment to strike and kill her. tyrion's escape also fuels cersei's paranoia of house tyrell: a tyrell coin is found in the cell of an undergaoler named rugen (who is actually varys in disguise), leading cersei to believe that the tyrells, particularly margaery, might have conspired with tyrion to murder joffrey and helped him escape by bribing the guards, maybe even conspired to kill tywin too. several innocent dwarfs are killed by bounty hunters who mistake them for tyrion. among them are: a pious dwarf that brienne meets at the riverlands; a tyroshi juggler; oppo (aka groat), one of the two dwarfs who performed at joffrey's wedding. cersei publicly refuses to punish anyone who kills an innocent dwarf (although one bounty hunter's blatant attempts to pass off a head that clearly isn't tyrion offends cersei so much she hands him over to qyburn for his experiments) in a dance with dragons, it is finally revealed that tyrion has successfully fled westeros with help from varys, who stays in king's landing but arranges for illyrio mopatis to shelter him in pentos. while in illyrio's mansion, tyrion is persuaded by illyrio to travel to meereen with some companions to aid daenerys targaryen in reclaiming the iron throne, and in the process to take his revenge on both cersei and jaime (though he expresses a desire to rape and kill cersei, he begins to have second thoughts about jaime near the end of the book). tyrion soon joins illyrio's friends   a sellsword named griff, his son and their servants (all of whom have been omitted from the tv show). soon he learns to know that griff and his son are in fact the presumed dead jon connington and aegon targaryen, the son of rhaegar and elia. connington treats tyrion hostilely, but aegon befriends him. aegon tells tyrion that he will soon meet and marry daenerys, she will give him her troops and dragons, and together they will sail to westeros and conquer it. tyrion pours cold water on the overconfident youth's hopes, pointing out his aunt is not some timid little girl who does whatever she is told, but a powerful queen, who has crossed deserts, survived assassins, rallied armies and conquered cities, who is unlikely to welcome a boy claiming to have a better claim to the iron throne than her own. tyrion concludes that if aegon appears before her like that (even with the golden company), he'll look like a beggar; he advises aegon to travel to westeros instead, raise his banners, rally supporters and take advantage of the chaos left by the war of the five kings, and then daenerys will come and meet him as equals. aegon accepts tyrion's advice. during the journey, they pass volantis and are attacked by stone men. tyrion falls into the water, but is rescued by connington, who (not jorah mormont) gets infected with greyscale in the process. while in a brothel (not in volantis itself, but one of its outlying towns), tyrion is captured by jorah mormont, who intends to take him to daenerys. they also meet penny, one of the dwarfs who performed at joffrey's wedding and whose brother oppo has recently been killed by dwarf hunters seeking tyrion; she initially blames tyrion for oppo's death and attempts to kill him, but eventually realizes it was not his fault. they board a ship whose destination is qarth. one of the passengers is moqorro, a red priest who was sent by the high priest of volantis, to offer daenerys guidance and help. moqorro tells tyrion he has seen him in a vision as "a small man with a big shadow." tyrion is flattered to hear that, but is also skeptical. the ship is badly damaged in a storm. after floating for days, the passengers are captured by slave traders. tyrion and penny are sold to yezzan zo qaggaz (who is vastly different from his series counterpart) in his tent in the siege camp outside meereen; tyrion saves jorah from being sold for the fighting pits by persuading the mean overseer of yezzan's slaves to buy him too, claiming that jorah participates the show which tyrion and penny play. soon tyrion impresses yezzan by through his skill at cyvasse, a popular board game. tyrion and penny are made to perform in daznak's pit, during which tyrion sees daenerys from afar and very nearly calls out to her, but stops himself after noticing barristan selmy beside her, who may prejudice her against him due to their shared hatred for the lannisters. the slave masters intend to unleash a pack of lions into the pit, but daenerys puts a stop to the act, unknowingly saving tyrion's life. the "bloody flux" plague decimates the siege; yezzan is among its victims. tyrion seizes the opportunity to escape with jorah and penny to the camp of the second sons, who have recently betrayed daenerys to side with the armies of yunkai. tyrion and jorah join the sellsword company, intending to persuade them to change their allegiance back to daenerys in exchange for the wealth of casterly rock, his birthright since jaime has renounced it. meanwhile, back in king's landing, varys shoots kevan lannister with a crossbow to fool cersei into thinking tyrion is still in the capital. tyrion is set to return in the winds of winter. a released sample chapter reveals that he and jorah successfully persuade the second sons to rejoin daenerys and fight for her, while the battle against the yunkish is going on. author george r. r. martin has also confirmed that tyrion and daenerys will meet face to face in the book. as much as tyrion loathed joffrey, he wouldn't harm him due to the taboo of kinslaying. after he is told the truth about tysha, it seems tyrion does not care anymore about that taboo: he kills his father, and in the fifth novel he brags about the kinslayings he has performed, the actual (his father) and the alleged (joffrey) alike; he even takes the "credit" for his mother's death, and also states he intends to kill his siblings. tyrion and jaime have always been on good terms. when tyrion was small, jaime brought him toys, barrel hoops, blocks and a carved wooden lion. he gave tyrion his first pony and taught him how to ride. tyrion vividly recalls all that in the fifth novel, when he thinks about tysha; he is filled with bitterness at the thought that he was betrayed by his brother, his own blood, whom he never doubted. yet, by the end of the novel, jaime is the first name that comes to his mind when he is asked "what do you miss?"; perhaps tyrion begins to have second thoughts about jaime, although he has not forgiven him yet. according to the tv series official pronunciation guide developed for the cast and crew, "tyrion lannister" is pronounced "teer ee un lan iss ter." {tywin lannister} tyrion lannister {pycelle} tyrion lannister {petyr baelish} {varys} {cersei lannister} {janos slynt} tyrion lannister brienne of tarth samwell bronn davos seaworth david benioff · d.b. weiss eddard stark · robert baratheon · tyrion lannister · jaime lannister · cersei lannister · daenerys targaryen · jon snow · petyr baelish · robb stark · catelyn stark · viserys targaryen · tywin lannister · margaery tyrell · stannis baratheon · sansa stark · arya stark · 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listen up nerds, jon snow’s true name is aegon targaryen. wipe off your glasses, tighten your suspenders, hit your inhaler, and get over it. the mystery has finally been revealed in game of thrones: jon snow is neither a jon nor a snow. his name is aegon targaryen and fans are up in arms across the fandom about this. however, i contend that jon’s true name is a great choice and makes sense when you consider the context and clues from a song of ice and fire and got hinting towards this. there are a few main complaints about why aegon is a bad name for jon. right at the top of the list, and widely lampooned is rhaegar copying george foreman, in that rhaegar already had a son named aegon. this aegon was born to first wife, elia martell, and makes rhaegar a mad prince naming all his sons the same. let’s examine the naming choice here. rhaegar was not with lyanna stark when jon with born, nor even alive. jon was born after the sack of king’s landing and as ned stark says in the show at the tower of joy: “the mad king is dead, and rhaegar lies beneath the ground” the same as arthur dayne and gerold hightower not being at the trident, rhaegar was not there for jon’s birth. while rhaegar may have left his preferences for what his child would be named, it was ultimately lyanna’s decision to name their child as she lay dying on the blood stained bed. there is also the question of what name rhaegar would’ve even left for his child. it’s a detail often glossed over in the show, but rhaegar had a pattern in mind for his children. his first child was a daughter he named rhaenys. his second child, a son he named aegon. if you follow this pattern, it’s very likely he did not expect a son from lyanna, but rather a daughter. why? because he was naming his children after the original three heads of the dragon of aegon the conqueror. the show referenced them here in a scene between arya and tywin at harrenhal, aegon the conqueror married his two sisters rhaenys and visenya, and they were not just his wives but equal partners in his conquest. they rode their own dragons, conquered kingdoms and accepted fealty on aegon’s behalf, and burned the armies in the field of fire. rhaegar maintains that the dragon must have three heads, so he must have three children. we see this in the house of the undying visions shown to dany: “will you make a song for him?” the woman asked. “he has a song,” the man replied. “he is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire.” he looked up when he said it and his eyes met dany’s, and it seemed as if he saw her standing there beyond the door. “there must be one more,” he said, though whether he was speaking to her or the woman in the bed she could not say. “the dragon has three heads.” he went to the window seat, picked up a harp, and ran his fingers lightly over its silvery strings. sweet sadness filled the room as man and wife and babe faded like the morning mist, only the music lingering behind to speed her on her way.   a clash of kings, daenerys iv rhaegar had decided the three dragons would mirror aegon and his sisters and began naming them appropriately. given that pattern, it seems very likely that rhaegar left only one name with lyanna. visenya, the third head of the dragon for the daughter he was certain was coming. he was dead wrong. it was thus left to lyanna, dying from childbirth with no prepared name for her surprise son, to come up with a name. it’s important to point out that rhaegar was often wrong in his predictions of the future, yet still acted decisively on them. early on in his life (i covered this in my rhaegar primer), maester aemon says that rhaegar thought he would be the prince that was promised and set out to make himself a warrior. however, he became convinced it would be his children instead and began these naming conventions. rhaegar also incorrectly believed that elia martell would have his three children, leading to him pursuing lyanna stark. right up to his last days he was wrong, as he also told jaime lannister that he would be returning from the trident. rhaegar had put his hand on jaime’s shoulder. “when this battle’s done i mean to call a council. changes will be made. i meant to do it long ago, but . . . well, it does no good to speak of roads not taken. we shall talk when i return.” those were the last words rhaegar targaryen ever spoke to him. outside the gates an army had assembled, whilst another descended on the trident. so the prince of dragonstone mounted up and donned his tall black helm, and rode forth to his doom.   a feast for crows, jaime i it’s perfectly in character that this failed prophet would make the bold move of not leaving a name for a boy. also, by the time jon was born, it’s possible that the news of rhaegar and his family’s deaths would’ve reached lyanna and, in her grief, she decided to name her own son after elia’s, making a touching tribute to an innocent infant brutally murdered by the monstrous knight, gregor clegane. also, there are multiple book passages that support the idea that jon is actually named aegon and not the other popular possibilities like jaeherys, daemon, or aemon (my personal favorite). the most explicit hint comes from maester aemon: a man grown with sons of his own, yet in some ways still a boy. egg had an innocence to him, a sweetness we all loved. kill the boy within you, i told him the day i took ship for the wall. it takes a man to rule. an aegon, not an egg. kill the boy and let the man be born.” the old man felt jon’s face. “you are half the age that egg was, and your own burden is a crueler one, i fear. you will have little joy of your command, but i think you have the strength in you to do the things that must be done. kill the boy, jon snow. winter is almost upon us. kill the boy and let the man be born.”   a dance with dragons, jon ii and there’s the house of the undying vision earlier, where rhaegar says: viserys, was her first thought the next time she paused, but a second glance told her otherwise. the man had her brother’s hair, but he was taller, and his eyes were a dark indigo rather than lilac. “aegon,” he said to a woman nursing a newborn babe in a great wooden bed. “what better name for a king?” “will you make a song for him?” the woman asked.   a clash of kings, daenerys iv rhaegar intended for his male heir to be named aegon and become king. he may have told lyanna the same thing while they were together. she may have remembered that, after hearing of the deaths of elia and her children, and along with empathy, decided that if her son should one day take the iron throne he should have the name of a king as well. in support of the name aegon is also the relationship between show runners david benioff and d.b. weiss and author george r.r. martin. there’s a story dan and dave love to tell about how they landed the show rights from george. from an interview with variety, d.b. weiss says, we had become instantly and genuinely obsessed with his books to the point where we knew lots and lots about the minutia of them   and then he asked us the question about jon snow’s parentage. maybe if we had gotten it wrong, he would have let us do it anyway. they had to correctly say that lyanna was jon’s mother. this means that, for george, the true identity of jon is a vital point that the entire story hinges on. it’s hard to believe that dan and dave would go off the reservation on such a pivotal piece of jon’s identity due to its importance. there’s also the famous story that originated in entertainment weekly, that to help the show runners finish the series, george gave them three twists to work towards, as a narrative. the reveal would count as a twist, as in the books it has been hinted as heavily that jon’s name is aemon versus aegon. in a particularly revealing memory, jon as a boy shouted out that he was aemon the dragonknight in a sparring match with robb. every morning they had trained together, since they were big enough to walk; snow and stark, spinning and slashing about the wards of winterfell, shouting and laughing, sometimes crying when there was no one else to see. they were not little boys when they fought, but knights and mighty heroes. “i’m prince aemon the dragonknight,” jon would call out, and robb would shout back, “well, i’m florian the fool.” or robb would say, “i’m the young dragon,” and jon would reply, “i’m ser ryam redwyne.” i go into extensive analysis of this revealing memory in two posts detailing how robb and jon’s journeys mirror those of the heroes they named themselves. in jon’s case, the important name for our purposes is that he calls himself aemon the dragonknight. this seems like an intentional hint by our author leading towards the conclusion that it may be jon’s true name. additionally in support of aemon as his name is the very close relationship between rhaegar and maester aemon. as i discuss in my reddit post aemon the blind: prince rhaegar, they wrote letters back and forth throughout their lives trying to solve the mystery of the prophecy, and eventually save the world together. however, with the clues toward jon being named aemon, there are problems with them. while in this memory jon names himself aemon the dragonknight, in a game of thrones/jon ix he contradicts that: but he had not left the wall for that; he had left because he was after all his father’s son, and robb’s brother. the gift of a sword, even a sword as fine as longclaw, did not make him a mormont. nor was he aemon targaryen. in addition, the show has scrubbed nearly all mention of the relationship between maester aemon and prince rhaegar from the narrative. if that relationship was meant to influence rhaegar’s naming of his child, it should’ve been portrayed in even some small way in the adaptation. the complete lack of the relationship is a glaring sign against the name aemon. also as discussed above, the evidence points away from rhaegar being involved in the naming of jon anyway. lyanna stark has no connection with anyone named aemon. she may have never even known of maester aemon’s closeness with rhaegar as the maester never mentions her at all. aegon is a strong name in the lore, the name of the conqueror and as traditional for the targaryens as the name brandon is for the starks. rhaegar says from beyond the grave that it is a fine name for a king, and maester aemon’s advice for jon in centered around his own brother king aegon v. it may not be the most popular name fans have speculated on in the fandom but it is one that works well in the narrative when you consider jon’s parents, the context, and the role he seems to be poised for. as an added bonus, many speculate that hidden in the tomb of lyanna stark there may be some items meant for jon as proof of his parentage. rhaegar’s harp, lyanna’s maiden’s cloak or wedding gown, a dragon egg… but imagine if instead, waiting in his mother’s tomb for him to tell him his true name, is the lost crown of aegon the conqueror that was last seen conveniently in dorne. a name and a crown fit for a king. come at me nerds, tell me how you are rationalizing your wrongness. don’t @ me. hodor joemagician is the biggest nerd of all, let it be known. i was initially “whatever” on aegon as a name, but have grown to appreciate the symmetry of it. i never really bought into aemon or jaehaerys as a possibility, despite their popularity because the show didn’t set them up at all that way (cutting jae entirely). and i think d&d are probably using the name grrm told them, though i know some are holding out hope that the name will be different in the book. d&d said that the third big twist that grrm told them about is from the very end of the story, so i don’t think that’s jon’s name. it’d be something in the final season, if not the finale. joe, thanks for writing this. i made a similar point in my finale dialogue with petra, but this is much more elaborate, with all the proof anyone would ever need. i’m going to send this to anyone who complains about “d&d’s horrible writing”… though, of course, this probably comes from grrm. my first reaction to “aegon” was puzzlement and denial. i never had a name preference for jon, but even then aegon seemed wrong, for all the obvious reasons… until i actually thought about it for a minute. it may be telling, and not in a flattering way, that we all assumed rhaegar was the one to name jon, and some kept thinking that even when the show demonstrated otherwise. sue the fury, couldn’t agree more. for “jaehaerys” to mean anything to the audience, jaehaerys i would’ve had to be mentioned more than once in passing by sam, and jaehaerys ii would’ve to actually exist, since he was cut from the show’s continuity in the very first season, in order to make aemon a generation closer to daenerys (and jon.) sure, “aemon” could’ve worked better than “jaehaerys,” but “aegon” is much more significant than either of those   it’s historically, symbolically, emotionally (to lyanna), and even prophetically significant. sean c., well, theoretically, the name could be a reveal from toward the end of asoiaf. we have no way of knowing. yeah this.i totally believed it since i read the leaks last year.i don’t even know why the uproar?it fits.why would they even change it?why not aemon if george said so?it’s just that when something contradicts people’s perceptions they want to debunk it in every way.and to me george is one if those people that would totally appreciate the irony of having a fake aegon pretending to be real and a real aegon hiding in plain sight lol. i for one, believe the third twist d&d have mentioned is something to do with melisandre…. they’ve been hinting @ something with her ever since her scene w/ arya in season 3 where they said they will meet again… combine that w/ her meeting with varys where she said they will both die. its the biggest prophecies we’ve seen on the show that haven’t been in the books, so i think they are hinting at something big.. which mel will be a part of. just my tin foil rhaegar was so obsessed with the prophecies that he wanted the ”three headed dragon” children. and he thought that they’ll come from the same bloodline again. that’s why aegon and rhaenys from elia. but elia became weak and she can’t gave birth to ”visenya”. so rhaegar wanted to start from the beginning with lyanna. and he realises this ”ice & fire = stark & targaryen” thing. jon’s name is aegon 100% in the books too. rhaegar wanted rhaenys and visenya from lyanna too. but he died. good article lots of good info i love the scene in the queens mercy when daenerys told jon about centuries of peace and prosperity started with her ancestor aegon targaryen and lord/king torrhen stark. that will be an epic scene when jon and daenerys find out jon’s true name is aegon targaryen and his parents are prince rhaegar targaryen and lyanna stark. daenerys will just as shocked as jon leading up to the name reveal was sir davos trying to refer to jon’s title at dragonstone as “king jon, no, that doesn’t sound right, king snow, no that’s not right either” (paraphrasing) the jist of which is jon’s future kingly name will be forthcoming. sue the fury: joemagician is the biggest nerd of all, let it be known. i was initially “whatever” on aegon as a name, but have grown to appreciate the symmetry of it. i never really bought into aemon or jaehaerys as a possibility, despite their popularity because the show didn’t set them up at all that way (cutting jae entirely). and i think d&d are probably using the name grrm told them, though i know some are holding out hope that the name will be different in the book. if is known i am the nerd that was promised born from staying inside and reading too much. r hard: rhaegar was so obsessed with the prophecies that he wanted the ”three headed dragon” children. and he thought that they’ll come from the same bloodline again. that’s why aegon and rhaenys from elia. but elia became weak and she can’t gave birth to ”visenya”. so rhaegar wanted to start from the beginning with lyanna. and he realises this ”ice & fire = stark & targaryen” thing. jon’s name is aegon 100% in the books too. rhaegar wanted rhaenys and visenya from lyanna too. but he died. exactly, his consistent inability to be correct makes it completely plausible that lyanna came up with the name when she was surprised by a boy with rhaegar dead and gone. my personal name power rankings for what i thought jon’s name would be were: 1. aemon 2. aegon 3. daemon 4. viserys (male version of visenya) 5. jaeherys, daeron luka nieto, my preference would be that the show made this more explicit. i’m not a huge fan that you need to reference the books so heavily for it to make sense. that’s a bad crutch for the show to lean on. not everyone has a podcast full of asoiaf experts to help them make sense of it. the show has changed character names before, like asha becoming yara. robin arryn is never referred to as “robert”, though that is his real name. it’s possible they didn’t want jon to have a targaryen name the show had already used. i think i’m more interested in why grrm decided to write a character representing that tired trope (“hidden ‘rightful’ heir”   arthur/sigurd/aragorn…) into asoiaf at all. i can’t believe that the liberal, leftist, and, after all, american, grrm would want to end his story with the suggestion that the seat of power needs the ‘rightful’ ruler on it (as tolkien did in lotr). that sort of maudlin sentimentalism, not to mention the conservative tinge of it, doesn’t fit him or his writing at all. so, why did he put jon into the story? is it to deconstruct this trope? to bring it down? i’d love some discussion on this   of course, above all, i’d love to be able to ask grrm about it, but it has to be bad form to ask him about things the show has already revealed that the books have not. on a separate note, a couple of days ago, i realised that grrm and i share a birthday. it’s next week, by the way   we’re both virgos. fictionisntreal, they changed them because “asha” and “osha” sound the same when spoken aloud in a lot of accents and it would’ve been confusing. and robert and robert robin were both on the show in the first season, it also probably would’ve been confusing. jon is a very different situation. i doubt he’ll be called by his real name on the show regularly, so they wouldn’t change it for those particular reasons. joemagician: luka nieto, my preference would be that the show made this more explicit. i’m not a huge fan that you need to reference the books so heavily for it to make sense. that’s a bad crutch for the show to lean on. not everyone has a podcast full of asoiaf experts to help them make sense of it. except casual show watchers don’t need to explain aegon’s name at all; they just know the historical significance of the name, and that may be enough. no need to explain the chronology exactly or rhaegar’s prophetic obsessions, really; his first aegon was mentioned exactly once. five aegons had ruled the seven kingdoms of westeros. there would have been a sixth, but the usurper’s dogs had murdered her brother’s son when he was still a babe at the breast. if he had lived, i might have married him. aegon would have been closer to my age than viserys. (daenerys i, adwd) yaga, because 90% of asoiaf is full of tropes? valerie, great catch joemagician, yes! i definitely thought his true name would be aemon but i’m also not completely surprised that it’s aegon and i also think it will be book canon. i also liked the parallels between jon and daeron as both were brought to positions of leadership when they were/are still quite young. also from adwd: “when jon had been a boy at winterfell, his hero had been the young dragon, the boy king who had conquered dorne at the age of fourteen. despite his bastard birth, or perhaps because of it, jon snow had dreamed of leading men to glory just as king daeron had, of growing up to be a conqueror. now he was a man grown and the wall was his, yet all he had were doubts. he could not even seem to conquer those.” the other parallel is that there was an assassination attempt on daeron and jon’s pov ends in adwd with an attempt on his own life. i also wonder if rhaegar actually read “aegon” within the prophecies or scrolls he read that would prompt him to name is second son aegon. i also think back to kinvara’s speech in season 6 “shall i tell you the name the voice spoke?” i always wondered if the voice varys heard said a specific name. .. as for that final twist… my tinfoil theory is that dany is actually half targaryen. fictionisntreal, they already used the name aegon as it was mention in the show when the bwb placed the hound on trial for killing aegon and rhaenys. the hound said he wasn’t responsible for their deaths. in show, they already mentioned an aegon. mau, there are hundreds of tropes. why this one? once again, the idea of a ‘rightful’ ruler is a conservative one (‘conservative’ in the sense of ‘a hierarchy exists, some people are inherently better than others’), and grrm isn’t a conservative, he’s an egalitarian liberal (‘all people are equal’). *that’s* what’s not gelling for me, not the use of ‘a’ trope by and of itself. yaga, the majority of people that use their brain in this world are not 100% conservative or 100% liberal on everything. it depends on the issue. the notion that people are either 100% liberal or 100% conservative is a trope in and of itself. sue the fury, i also thought d&d said the third twist/wow moment was intended for the final season (but, well, that could indeed have been before they decided upon 8 seasons). in any case, for me shireen’s burning and certainly hodor’s name appear as a more meaningful moment than jon’s official name aegon/aemon/whatever. so i’m certainly hoping for something more impactful, like dany’s third betrayal, cersei’s end or something else. yaga, its possible jon doesn’t sit the thrown because he is the “rightful king.” he ends up sitting it because he earns it through his actions, choices, lots of luck and skillful courtship. he is almost close to becoming king or at least king consort in his own right even without his bloodline. which is one reason i don’t like the secret parentage idea, the guy is so close to becoming king he just has to propose. what is the point of the whole reveal if he is practically getting to the same place? fdr, i thought the third reveal was the ending his name is jon snow, the white wolf, warden of the north, 999th lord commander of the night’s watch, victor of the battle of the bastards, leader of the miracle at hardhome, the king who loved, and true raised son of eddard stark. his name is not aegon, or aemon, or daeron, or fartron or any other targaryen name. jon is a snow, raised among starks. the blood of the first men flows through his veins from his lady mother. the real subverting of the trope will be when he walks away from the name. valerie, exactly my thoughts when ser davos said those words. mr derp, it can’t be a ‘trope’. this word has a meaning   a pattern in literature, an archetype. perhaps you meant ‘stereotype’, ‘cliche’, ‘banality’, ‘truism’, ‘bromide’ or some such, i’m not sitting in your mind, so i don’t know… but certainly, not a trope. house monty, yes, that’s my point! what’s the point of this ‘rightful heir’ bit to jon’s character? he could be an ‘everyman’, an *actual* ned stark’s bastard if he needed that bit of initial boost. but he’s not… and why? yaga: i think i’m more interested in why grrm decided to write a character representing that tired trope (“hidden ‘rightful’ heir”   arthur/sigurd/aragorn…) into asoiaf at all. i can’t believe that the liberal, leftist, and, after all, american, grrm would want to end his story with the suggestion that the seat of power needs the ‘rightful’ ruler on it (as tolkien did in lotr). that sort of maudlin sentimentalism, not to mention the conservative tinge of it, doesn’t fit him or his writing at all. so, why did he put jon into the story? is it to deconstruct this trope? to bring it down? i’d love some discussion on this   of course, above all, i’d love to be able to ask grrm about it, but it has to be bad form to ask him about things the show has already revealed that the books have not. on a separate note, a couple of days ago, i realised that grrm and i share a birthday. it’s next week, by the way   we’re both virgos. i absolutely believe grrm included this “trope” specifically in order to destroy it! this whole story has been about destroying the accepted ways of doing things. girls and women, in both good and bad ways, take control of their lives and become powerful: arya, daenerys, sansa, brienne, cersei. bastards become respected leaders chosen by those they lead. dwarfs and “craven” highborn sons despised by their fathers become trusted advisors and learned men and attain important and powerful positions. the lowest regarded of the commoners, the freefolk, also become important and powerful, trusted by the kitn and his lords. i believe we will see the destruction of the iron throne and perhaps the destruction of patriarchal monarchy rule by primogeniture altogether. worfwworfington, dany will probably still call him aegon when they are alone. will make her feel like a real targaryen queen. ginny, i agree. thats why i think what makes the most sense is either him defering to daenerys or them co ruling. the one problem with no monarchy is that it almost feels to idealistic. the transition from monarchy to democracy was a centuries transition in our world that was caught up with all sorts of other broader socio economic factors. i could see a step in this direction, perhaps a parliament, but just getting rid of the monarchy all together feels truly radical. but who knows. maybe tyrion’s comments in s7e6 were foreshadowing for an actual radical change and dany and jon choose not to have their kid inherit their crown. i definitely made fun of the brothers aegon and will continue to do so, most likely. it’s just unprecedented to my knowledge, except for newhart’s hilarious, “i’m larry. this is my brother darryl. this is my other brother darryl.” and so i’ll keep quipping, “i’m rhaenys. this is my brother aegon. this is my other brother aegon.” one fan argued about all of the walder freys, but even those are cousins, and uncles and nephews, and fathers and sons, and so on. there aren’t any brothers to each other both named walder frey. and yet, when all of the dust settles, this isn’t the worst thing in the world. and i certainly never considered the possibility that this name wasn’t straight from grrm. of course, it is! d&d are going off book on many small things but not something this meaningful. rhaegar had decided the three dragons would mirror aegon and his sisters and began naming them appropriately. given that pattern, it seems very likely that rhaegar left only one name with lyanna. visenya, the third head of the dragon for the daughter he was certain was coming. surely rhaegar was smart enough to realize, after marrying lyanna, that the song of ice and fire would come from his marriage to ice (lyanna) and not elia. so i think lyanna was following rhaegar’s wishes with the name aegon, wishes he’d have expressed before aegon and rhaenys were killed. the explanation that r hard (and perhaps others) gives about rhaegar fervently believing tptwp needed to be aegon is the thing that makes the most sense to me. sue the fury: they changed them because “asha” and “osha” sound the same when spoken aloud in a lot of accents and it would’ve been confusing. no more confusing than yara and arya. and asha/yara and osha had entirely separate storylines, so it seems an odd decision to me. in the books there are still targaryen loyalists. i guess, on the show we will never see them? it’s a little unclear in the books who they all are or if they will have any influence. a curious situation now, since the north may become targ loyalists! luka nieto: it may be telling, and not in a flattering way, that we all assumed rhaegar was the one to name jon, and some kept thinking that even when the show demonstrated otherwise. the name “jon” seems to be one that would come from lyanna, but once i realized that he had a secret targaryen first name, as well, i would have thought that name would more likely come from a targaryen. knowing about all of the deaths, if the name only came from lyanna, i would think she’d choose the name of the only targaryen she knew and loved, rhaegar. as a woman, i can say that if my husband had had a first wife, there would be no way in hell i’d name my children after her or any of her children without being asked to do so. lmao some stay doing the most as usual “it was ultimately lyanna’s decision to name their child as she lay dying on the blood stained bed.” exactly. but don’t expect certain segments of the got fandom to get it lol. mention jon’s parentage to them and they go nuts. there are still people out there who think lyanna and rhaegar aren’t his parents because muh cliches and muh tropes, or that he’s not the heir to the it in spite of the amount of king imagery in his chapters. grrm isn’t as edgy and subversive as they like to think. grandmaester flash, asha/yara and osha aren’t important characters in the grand scheme of things. certainly not as important as jon and arya, whose names get mentioned in like every episode. so to change asha into yara isn’t a big deal. but to change jon’s name just for shits and giggles is not something that can be done, especially when it’s in connection to the biggest mystery of the series, the one that secured d&d the rights to adapt the story. most of the viewers know the names of like 5 to 10 characters at most, so yes asha and osha would be confusing. this is the same fandom that thinks dany’s real name is khalessi and gives it to their kids. yaga, well, the whole concept of feudalism is conservative. <a this was a fun, geeky read. personally, i’m not getting that hung up on jon’s name being the same as another son of rhaegar’s. it’s a little weird but it just doesn’t bother me much. i appreciate that others can come up with theories that have it make sense to them, though. if jon does in fact play a role in ushering in some kind of new era of governance in westeros   such as a somewhat more democratic way of deciding rulers   then i think his name, aegon, will have symbolic significance. the new aegon decides to abandon or fundamentally change the system formed by his namesake. i think the writers probably perceived that significance and merely shrugged at the logistical problems of rhaegar giving two of his sons the same name. if they have to weigh the symbolic advantages of the name aegon against the logistical advantages of giving him a less meaningful name like jaenerhys i think they will go with the symbolic advantage every time. apparently the dvd is out the 11th of december.does anybody know what extras are included? jenny, praying for some great history and lore clips. i want rr narrated by lyanna and/or young ned. yaga, yes, you’re right that the term does have meaning, which i used correctly. a trope can be defined as either a figure of speech or cliche, so yes, i used the term correctly. no one needs to be in my head to make that connection. either way, my point still stands, which you sidestepped by trying to use semantics. just because you see george rr martin as a liberal doesn’t mean that everything he does has to also be liberal. i think a fun twist would be that dany is tptwp and/or azor ahai reborn after all. on the surface, it looks like the story is leading to that because she’s the only living targ and she hatched dragons and set herself on fire without getting burned and all that. but the readers learn quickly to look beneath the surface. then they figure out or learn of r+l=j. after that, it’s really easy to make the assumption that because jon is the secret targ heir and the one who is tasked with leading the battle against the dead, he must be aar. but maybe that is too obvious too? it would actually be much more of a twist if aar actually was dany. now, i’m not saying that i 100% believe this is true. i will say that it would entertain me greatly if it was. just imagine if jon was the new nissa nissa and dany had to sacrifice him to save the world. the fandom would completely lose their shit over it! excellent article! although i knew there were arguments for several of them, i have to admit that i’ve been as guilty as a number of book readers in a preference for a name other than aegon   mine being for aemon. and i do think there are a number of hints that go that way. in fact, the quote about jon not being aemon targaryen was one of the reasons i believed that was the name he had been given at birth! but he had not left the wall for that; he had left because he was after all his father’s son, and robb’s brother. the gift of a sword, even a sword as fine as longclaw, did not make him a mormont. nor was he aemon targaryen. three times the old man had chosen, and three times he had chosen honor, but that was him. even now, jon could not decide whether the maester had stayed because he was weak and craven, or because he was strong and true. yet he understood what the old man had meant, about the pain of choosing; he understood that all too well. (jon ix in a game of thrones) three times as a brother of the night’s watch, jon is forced to choose between honor and desire. and three times jon ultimately chooses honor:   when he returns to castle black and recommits himself to the night’s watch after running off to join robb’s army. he declares himself mormont’s man.   when he leaves ygritte to return to castle black. he breaks his vows, but he does return to the night’s watch in spite of his love for her.   when he rejects stannis’s offer of winterfell and legitimacy in favor of remaining with the night’s watch. by the time he is stabbed, jon has ultimately chosen honor three times. i love the kill the boy passage   in the show, aemon doesn’t mention giving the same advice to his brother before going north to the wall. i wonder now if this was done to avoid any hints that aegon was the name lyanna gave her son? i was also really annoyed this season that nobody seemed to mention maester aemon   will we get some sort of reference to his death scene and to egg when bran carries out his plan for he and sam to tell jon the truth? in any case, the books (plus the world book and dunk and egg) give us a tremendous number of parallels between jon snow and aegon v targaryen. in fact, i could probably write several thousand words about that but i’ll try to be as brief as possible! one of the key parallels is the fact that they are both very unlikely candidates for kingship. aegon v was born the fourth son of a fourth son and was seemingly destined to only fall down the line of succession. rhaegar’s second son was raised the bastard of winterfell following the exile of house targaryen from the iron throne. neither seem, given their circumstances, likely rulers   indeed, aegon v’s nickname is aegon the unlikely. rhaegar’s son could be given a similar moniker. and both of them have extensive experience of dealing with those who live far from the gilded red keep. aegon v traveled throughout westeros as squire to a hedge knight, and jon snow served with beggars and thieves in the night’s watch as well as treating with wildlings. i won’t go into anymore detail because   as i said above   it’ll only turn into thousands of words. these two hidden dragons are incredibly interesting characters, and the man we have come to know as jon snow has far more in common with his great great grandfather than he realizes. aegon does make a lot of sense   that name is to house targaryen what the name brandon is to house stark. and if lyanna wished to emphasize her son’s targaryen heritage (particularly given her son had her look rather than rhaegar’s) what better way to do it that give him the targaryen name? rhaegar may very well have left lyanna with the name visenya. but if he also told her that he expected a son of his named aegon to be the prince that was promised, it makes a lot of sense for her to choose that name if she knew the fate of elia and her children. as much as i liked the name aemon for rhaegar and lyanna’s son, i have made my peace with aegon. it isn’t a name without supporting hints and foreshadowing, but it is one i do not believe we will see him use. he will always see ned stark as his father, and ned named him jon. flayed potatoes, yess me too.but most of all i want to know who is doing what commentaries.i know kit is doing the finale but who else? mau, someone put the whole thing on youtube lol. weirwoodtreehugger, i like the dragons being lightbringer which i guess would make dany azor ahai but jon would still have a meaningful role riding rhaegal and the nissa nissa was actually drogo/ rhaego or whatever the death was that paid for the dragons. although if white walkers can survive a blast from a dragon in addition to putting out dragon flame that theory does not work. i really hope it turns out that the first baby aegon wasn’t rhaegar’s kid. it would explain why rhaegar dissed elia at harrenhall, and also the annulment. jenny, link? kath6152, that would actually be pretty interesting in the sense that it would completely change what everyone “knows” about why rhaegar annulled his marriage to elia. i like it! yaga, yaga, that’s what i am also thinking about. to me, the most powerful dialogue in the whole series was between stannis and ser davos when stannis asked “what is the life of one bastard boy against an entire kingdom?” and davis said “everything”. i was very intrigued by that answer and i think that this message ist also important to the writers. power ist power (as cersei put it) but, in the end, no one ist superior and  even more important  no one should be left behind .. sean c., any guesses from the group at that big final twist? jon’s first move when he finds out he is aegon: https://mobile.twitter.com/danyunburnt/status/907204640675991559/photo/1 huntermac87, something about the ww. ginevra, i always assumed that the name “jon” came from ned, that he named his “bastard” after jon arryn, his mentor. interesting read. but are we sure that rhaegar still regarded his children from elia (named after two of the original three conquerors) as his legitimate children? if yes, why didn’t he place some kingsguards at kl to protect them? the fact that he had kingsguards at the toj, suggests to me that rhaegar was confident that a future king, a boy, was coming when lyanna gave birth. perhaps he simply wanted to wipe the slate clean with his previous marriage/children, and start fresh with his interpretation of the prophecy. so, erase the older aegon child, start with a new aegon, and then produce two other daughters with lyanna. on her deathbed, lyanna’s primary focus would be to make sure her baby would be safe. so why give him a targ name? why not a solid northern name, so that it would be quite anonymous? in my opinion, rhaegar had instructed her to name the child aegon. his real name is jon snow. that name confirms the reality of who he is. yes, he has a legal name of “aegon targaryen”. he also has the legal name “jon stark” from when robb legitimized him. but he remains always “jon snow”. weirwoodtreehugger, if dany is azor ahai, her dragons are lightbringer, who were born many years ago. what would she achieve by killing jon now lol. i thought this last season made it fairly clear that both jon and dany are connected to the prophecy. so like it or not, jon’s role in this story is not to be the sacrificial lamb. the show has gone out of it’s way to hint at a future confrontation between jon and the nk, beric telling jon that the way to end the war is killing the nk and then the staredown 2.0. yet people keep expecting him to die before the white walkers are defeated, inspite of all the set up to the contrary. ghost of winterfell, lightbringer was forged three times. the first time, it was tempered in water and it broke. ok, ice and snow are basically frozen water, so viserion was tempered in water and broke (he was killed) the second time, it was tempered in the heart of a lion, but it still broke. ok, we’ve got three lions still running around   cersei, jaime and tyrion. what if rhaegal is killed by cersei? the third time, it was tempered in the heart of azor ahai’s beloved. so, drogon will have to kill jon? and then dany will be azor ahai. that pic!! *swoon* jenny, no i meant like someone should do it.i haven’t found it yet. dark sister, i am also intrigued by the possibility dany may not be exactly who she thinks she is. hellothere, mel and the red priests definitely still have a role to play. now with jon’s name reveal we can speculate on a connection to the name varys heard as well. in the books varys constructs his ideal prince, grooming him from childhood, and calls him aegon. was that choice related to the name the sorceror used? seems likely now, since there isn’t much time left for other names to become relevant to varys’s storyline. as for mel, we still need to learn why her extreme age matters in the slightest, and her shadow baby abilities seem odd if the only purpose of that was to kill off renly. yaga, an interesting point on “rightful” rulers and i tend to agree. i think personally that it is telling that the story tells of a prince who was promissed and not a king. i don’t think this is a “aegon wins and rules happily ever after” story. worfwworfington, good lightbringer analysis, really interesting. with jaime and tyrion   and the walkers   heading to winterfell, maybe rhaegal isn’t safe. no matter his true name, i will always think of him as jon snow. worfwworfington, lol “in king’s landing, queen alicent grew most wroth when she learned the babe had been named aegon, taking it for a slight against her own aegon … which it most certainly was. (hereafter, we will refer to queen alicent’s son as aegon the elder and princess rhaenyra’s son as aegon the younger).” (“the rogue prince”   grrm) because multiple characters with the same name can co exist in the same story. shocking, i know. the name could be significant or it could not be. if not, then dan and dave may have chosen to give jon the name aegon because it’s more familiar to the tv audience and they haven’t included young griff in the show. i mean, has the show ever actually named rhaegar and ellia’s children? if not, then there’s no harm in calling jon, aegon and everyone unfamiliar with the books is non the wiser. we’ll know if jon finds out his given name is something else if and when george actually reveals it to us. i suspect that regardless, he will end up wanting to be called jon regardless. violator: has the show ever actually named rhaegar and ellia’s children? thorus mentioned them by name when the bwob had sandor on “trial” in the cave. hodor targaryen: i always assumed that the name “jon” came from ned, that he named his “bastard” after jon arryn, his mentor. naming a bastard after jon arryn would have been deemed an insult. indeed, this is part of why the idea that jon’s true name is aegon is a very old one (at least among the “lyannites”: the dayneites obviously didn’t by the premises!). there had always been the question: “why would ned insult jon arryn by naming a bastard after arryn?” after all, given that jon arryn seems to have been more of a father to ned than ned’s biological father was, ned really should have saved the name for second or third legitimate son. however, if jon’s true name was aegon, then “jon” was a reasonably close approximation. ned was a stickler for the truth: and the less “false” the lie was, the more comfortable he would have been. there still would have been the issue of jon arryn taking offense: but that seems to have not become a problem. rhaegar himself obviously would have chosen a different name: but rhaegar had been dead for weeks. even if he had offered ideas on the name before he died, then it was still down to lyanna to name him: and as should be abundantly obvious by now to both book readers and show watchers, lyanna did what she thought was best, not what men told her was best. lyanna would have heard that aegon try 1 was dead (and even if it turns out that he’s still alive in the books, then it does not much matter: lyanna never read the books), and if she thought that it was important for rhaegar to have a son named aegon, then aegon his name would have been. one does wonder how ned explained to jon arryn why ned’s mentor was the namesake of a bastard: but no doubt ned dissembled with something like “it was his mother’s wish.” ned was not a very good liar, but he was pretty good at spinning the truth in misleading ways! house monty, yes, i think there will have to be some intermediary steps to any kind of continent wide democracy. not sure what it would be. well, i guess we could look to our own planet’s history for clues! that would point to some bloody common people uprising revolutions, though. i’ve always believed that jon’s true name was “baelor,” which was why ned whispered this name right before he lost his head in k l. ghost of winterfell: if dany is azor ahai, her dragons are lightbringer, who were born many years ago. that does not necessarily follow! after all, in some versions of the azor ahai story, he had a dog as a companion. (hence the “azor ahai was a warg!” conjectures, because only wargs can have dogs….) lightbringer probably was not the dog! (and if drogon is lightbringer, then it was khal drogo who played the part of nissa nissa: after all, it was sacrificing him that led to drogon’s birth. er, hatching. effin’ reptiles….) what the lightbringer story probably represents is the recipe for valyrian steel. moreover, i would not expect the current go of history to replicate the fairy tales derived from the past too closely: if nothing else, then nothing on the show has set up or even foreshadowed this. wimsey, to add to what you are saying, the name jon snow is also likely grrm’s own version of john doe. he’s hinting that the name is really a placeholder for jon’s true name, which ned knows is too dangerous to reveal. “you can call him lord snow,” pyp said as he came up to join them. “you don’t want to know what his mother calls him.”   agot, jon iv. flayed potatoes: grandmaester flash, asha/yara and osha aren’t important characters in the grand scheme of things.certainly not as important as jon and arya, whose names get mentioned in like every episode. so to change asha into yara isn’t a big deal. but to change jon’s name just for shits and giggles is not something that can be done, especially when it’s in connection to the biggest mystery of the series, the one that secured d&d the rights to adapt the story. most of the viewers know the names of like 5 to 10 characters at most, so yes asha and osha would be confusing. this is the same fandom that thinks dany’s real name is khalessi and gives it to their kids. lol, that is so true about “khaleesi”! i only started watching during season 4, and i binged until i caught up. my work friend had already been watching from the beginning, but she’s a busy mom with no time to obsess like me. so i kept talking to her about daenerys, and she kept asking who i was talking about? i said, daenerys, married to khal drogo, now has the dragons? it was her favorite character, and she didn’t know her real name! worfwworfington, the story is also the story of the forging, on that we agree. but imo lightbringer is still a sword, not a dragon. of course, we shall see. ice was used to kill ned and then it “shattered”. widow’s wail or oathkeeper (probably ww) will kill a lannister and then also be reforged (shattered). so either jaime or tyrion will die mid way through season 8 by a lannister sword. that is the lion tempering. the final sword, made of a melted and reforged lannister sword will then need a “tempering”. imo that final tempering is the nissa nissa moment, which echoes the creation of the night king (dragonglass shard in the heart). ginny: well, i guess we could look to our own planet’s history for clues! westeros has yet to have something like magna carta. that set the stage for england moving towards democracy, which in turn helped catalyze things slowly elsewhere in europe. so, westeros is still centuries away from anything we would deem “democracy.” flayed potatoes: to add to what you are saying, the name jon snow is also likely grrm’s own version of john doe. he’s hinting that the name is really a placeholder for jon’s true name, which ned knows is too dangerous to reveal. true! that probably was too good to pass up. and, of course, as others noted years ago: jon is such a common name that grrm might not have made the connection to jon arryn immediately himself. but, of course, the fact that sir arthur conan doyle was a catholic has no bearing on whether sherlock holmes might have been, right? 😀 grandmaester flash: no more confusing than yara and arya. and asha/yara and osha had entirely separate storylines, so it seems an odd decision to me. arya and yara sound very different. asha & osha differ by only one vowel, and because sounds for the same vowels overlap among different accents (it’s one of the primary things that distinguishes accents, after all), it would have been very hard for audiences to distinguish. ginny, that’s the case with so many casual fans! my unsullied/casual friends call her dragon mom lol. but they all know names like: arya, ned, jon snow and so on. the simple names are always easier to remember and pronounce. one thing i find funny is that they always call jon by his full name like most of the other characters on the show do, so never just ‘jon’. they also do this with han solo in sw. house monty, worfwworfington, i also like the idea of the dragons being a “flaming sword.” in adwd xaro straight up refers to dany’s dragons as “flaming swords.” : “when your dragons were small they were a wonder. grown, they are death and devastation, a flaming sword above the world.” given, that grrm likes to hint at prophecy within dialogues, i don’t want to completely discount the fact that the dragons could very well be the flaming sword. i feel like their very existence also ties into other prophecies such as the dothraki’s “stallion who mounts the world.” ginevra: surely rhaegar was smart enough to realize, after marrying lyanna, that the song of ice and fire would come from his marriage to ice (lyanna) and not elia. so i think lyanna was following rhaegar’s wishes with the name aegon, wishes he’d have expressed before aegon and rhaenys were killed. we don’t have any reason to think that. for one thing, we have no idea what the prophecy said in the first place! rhaegar needed a third: and he sought out a new wife to get that third targaryen. we don’t know that the name “aegon” was important to this. indeed, given that rhaegar at one time thought that he might be the “one” of the prophecy, we have evidence that there was no particular name attached to it. my bet is that lyanna did this entirely on her own. even if rhaegar had expressed other ideas, then she would have done what she thought was appropriate. after all, if she were the sort to do what men told her to do, then, well, rhaegar would have had to find yet another woman! i learned today reading about henry i, the son of william the conquerer, that his daughter matilda was named after his wife matilda of scotland. but he also had many bastards, including three daughters who all three were named matilda fitzroy (the surname given amongst normans for bastards of kings). matilda, matilda fitzroy, matilda fitzroy, matilda fitzroy, and matilda of scotland   must have been very confusing around the dinner table. wimsey, true. it’s like being called john smith or something 😛 jon snow is such a simple and generic name that it really stands out when you look at the books and see the names of other nobles like cersei, jaeherys (still can’t spell it), catelyn, viserys, tyrion and so on. you can’t help but think there’s something off there, especially in a genre like fantasy, where the names tend to be more elegant or strange (can’t find the right words for it, but i think you know what i mean). spacechampion, to add to the historical topic, the ptolemaic dynasty is also made up of a ton of kings named ptolemy and a bunch of queens named cleopatra lol. oh and just like the targs, they loved inbreeding too. their family tree is absolutely hilarious and puts rhaegar to shame https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/89/ptolemaic_dynasty.gif wimsey, henry viii named a bastard of his “henry,” presumably after himself or his father or because it was a significant name in his family line. so i’m not sure it’s that insulting to name bastards after people, in real world history or in westeros. besides ned seemingly naming jon snow after his friend and mentor, walder frey also names one of his bastards after himself. i feel like your assumption that it’s sort of impolite in westeros to name a bastard after someone you like/care about is a perfectly fair one, given the dislike for bastards, especially in the south. but i don’t think ned naming jon snow “jon” really fits with that logic. your theory to reconcile this is kind of a head scratcher: ned wanted to name his nephew in such a way as to cast off suspicion that the nephew was a secret targaryen (obviously keeping the name aegon would have been unwise). but because the kid is a legitimate targaryen, ned can’t possibly bring himself to name him something generic like edric, so he feels compelled to name him (and not his next legitimate son) after jon arryn. therefore, naming his “bastard” after a friend is a clue that the bastard really isn’t a bastard! sorry, that doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. i mean, if we accept that ned was trying to convince everyone that his nephew was actually his bastard, why break a social more in naming him? i think it is far more likely that naming bastards after others is not such a social sin as you suggest, or at least, not in the north. or maybe there is a hierarchy of acceptability when it comes to naming bastards after others (don’t name them after kings or relatives, but friends are okay). again, the example of henry viii naming his bastard son henry fitzroy suggests that this social rule didn’t exist even in our world, so unless you know of an excerpt from the books that indicates that this would be an insult, then i don’t think this counts as a clue towards r+l=j (not that there needed to be more). flayed potatoes: spacechampion, to add to the historical topic, the ptolemaic dynasty is also made up of a ton of kings named ptolemy and a bunch of queens named cleopatra lol. oh and just like the targs, they loved inbreeding too. their family tree is absolutely hilarious and puts rhaegar to shame https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/89/ptolemaic_dynasty.gif holy crap. i can’t even begin to try to understand that family tree. :o spacechampion: i learned today reading about henry i, the son of william the conquerer, that his daughter matilda was named after his wife matilda of scotland.but he also had many bastards, including three daughters who all three were named matilda fitzroy (the surname given amongst normans for bastards of kings).matilda, matilda fitzroy, matilda fitzroy, matilda fitzroy, and matilda of scotland   must have been very confusing around the dinner table. you just quickly and succinctly removed all possible minor hang ups i may have had over jon being named aegon. i don’t know how common it is throughout history, but that there is at least one real world example of a father using the same name for multiple kids, so it’s not just an oversight on the writers’ part (necessarily). i wonder if it happens elsewhere in history. it seems like english monarchs, at least, went to the same well of names over and over again, especially for expected heirs. (also suggests that naming bastards after people may not be so insulting to the namesakes, which comforts me given my pretty tedious debate with wimsey about how strange/not strange it is for jon snow to be named after jon arryn). worfwworfington, i believe jon was the 998th lord commander. the 999th is dolorous edd. dark sister, i am pretty sure that if lightbringer were going to turn out to be a dragon, we would’t have characters wandering around with flaming swords. beric and thoros need to have some sort of point. flayed potatoes: this is the same fandom that thinks dany’s real name is khalessi and gives it to their kids. hahaha!!! sad but true! jenny, yes i love that irony and symmetry you point out!! awol, could be. the dragons being lightbringer feels so much more structurally and themstically satisfying to me since the others and the dragons were the bookends to the first book and are the great weapons of ice and fire. and we know now that the others are indeed a weapon created by the cotf. also drogon is about 5000% awesomer than any flaming sword could be. but who knows you could be right. yaga, perhaps we are watching different shows. the whole appeal of got, is that is in many ways the very opposite of the liberal, wealthy, democratic world that those who can watch the show inhabit. even with the cataclysmic changes that it is going trough, it won’t become very liberal, whoever ends on top (well i guess the most egalitarian version would be the night king’s winning, with almost everyone equally dead and the leaders not enjoying even central heating). after all now with the wall fallen and dragons around everyone will believe in magic, and as the very liberal maesters have shown, magic isn’t very conducive to liberalism. a literary work that is historical in character and takes pains to draw in detail religions, family trees and local traditions is structurally conservative. it deals with conservative ideas, institutions and symbols, even when some of them are actually undermined. that happened a lot in history, such as king william i “the conqueror” being an actual bastard (his enemies of course called him “william the bastard”), and queens mary i and elizabeth i being both regarded as bastards by respectively protestants and catholics (as their father’s marriages to their mothers were deemed void)   as well as illegitimate by the very fact they were women reigning alone, something england hadn’t seen before. so there may be some more or less “liberal” elements within the story but as long as family, heraldry, prophecy etc. are there, it will remain a quite conservative place. joemagician: if is known i am the nerd that was promised born from staying inside and reading too much you are among good company, joemagician. i imagine there are throngs of book nerds here, young and old, chastised by worried parents for reading “too much.” so, every scene of the gorgeous citadel library, and sam touring among all those wonderful books gave you heart palpitations, too? i am not as dedicated to these book details as many of you are here, but i seem to devour book detail whenever it happens, so this thread has been a magnet to me. for my part, though, jon having been named aegon wasn’t a problem to me. i guess it’s the same to most viewers, more of an “oh, ok,” attitude. but reading the various points of view as to why or why not aegon has been a hoot. carry on. regarding jon’s real name, i have no dog in that fight. it’s all good to me. what interests me more is the forthcoming fallout this reveal will bring. hell, call him dickon just let the man have some peace when this is done. 🙂 erica: what interests me more is the forthcoming fallout this reveal will bring. hell, call him dickon just let the man have some peace when this is done. 🙂 agree brilliant article, thank you so! anyway, i think that if lyanna’s purpose was to protect her son, she would have never asked ned to call him aegon, such a meaningful targaryen name. flayed potatoes, ginny, charles ii of spain had a doozy of a family tree too. the inbreeding caused him to suffer all kinds of physical and mental disabilities. charles ii of spain family tree wikipedia entry flora linden, he didn’t have the blood of the dragon. its interesting cleopatra was so inbred but apparently still sufficiently put together where she could work ceaser and antony. regardless of jon’s real name, i can’t imagine anyone addressing him by it….certainly not the people who know him best. how long did it take for him to come to terms with his status as a bastard? yeah, we’ll see the “you’re a stark and you’re a targaryen” thrown back him, but i can’t see him upending his whole identity as he currently knows it just for the sake of having legitimacy. maybe what i’m saying is too simplistic. i know they’ll be conflict with the northern lords, with dany, but the worst will come from within. i’m not happy for him; i’m sad for him, sad for what this is going to do to him. maybe that’s part of the bittersweet… erica, i think once he processes it he will be happy. i think in s1e2 he specifically asked is my mother out there? does she know about me? does she care? knowing he had a mother that loved and cared about him will make him happy. same thing for daenerys. once she processes it knowing she is not alone and she has family will make her happy. the third twist/wow moment was viserion being killed and turned into a white walker/wight. if most of the online fandom wasn’t spoilt by leaks, our mouths would be hanging over like most of the audience who never goes online. aegon makes sense. there is fake one, but the real one is standing in front of everyone. house monty, “erica, i think once he processes it he will be happy. i think in s1e2 he specifically asked is my mother out there? does she know about me? does she care? knowing he had a mother that loved and cared about him will make him happy. same thing for daenerys. once she processes it knowing she is not alone and she has family will make her happy.” cont. the very first desire dany ever expresses is a desire for home which i think means family. this news once fully processed will be the realization of part of their character arcs that were established in the first two episodes of the show. house monty: i think once he processes it he will be happy. i think in s1e2 he specifically asked is my mother out there? does she know about me? does she care? knowing he had a mother that loved and cared about him will make him happy. i hope you’re right. i trust he’ll come to terms with what ned did for him (i believe he’ll be angry at first, but that’s hardly a stretch to imagine) and he was loved/wanted which i hope he comes to realize, too. it’s just that jon’s path has never been easy and this is just going to gut him…at least initially. i just want the guy to get a break, simpleton that i am. 🙂 day called it when they met. jon snow/aegon targaryen will be the next leader of the seven kingdoms and he will be the great leader the aegon targaryen she mentioned had been. great article. i enjoy how clear you make your points. erica it’s just that jon’s path has never been easy and this is just going to gut him…at least initially. i just want the guy to get a break, simpleton that i am. jon is in love with dany and she loves him in return. i call that a huge break. after he and dany process the truth, they will both have family (each other and that child who is being telegraphed) as well as their love. simones, agreed. the guy had boat sex with the dragon queen and she is in love with him. jon caught the biggest break anyone could catch in that world. he is doing alright. house monty: simones, agreed. the guy had boat sex with the dragon queen and she is in love with him. jon caught the biggest break anyone could catch in that world. he is doing alright. i’ll try to be more optimistic. hodor targaryen: your theory to reconcile this is kind of a head scratcher: ned wanted to name his nephew in such a way as to cast off suspicion that the nephew was a secret targaryen (obviously keeping the name aegon would have been unwise). but because the kid is a legitimate targaryen jon is simply the “gon” from aegon, pronounced somewhat differently. also, i cannot claim this as “my theory”: this is an old conjecture that goes way back. i have zero memory of who came up with it, and i suspect that many people came up with it independently. i do remember (or think that i remember) that it dovetailed from the endless “who is jon’s mother” arguments and the question of why ned would “honor” the prickly jon arryn by naming a bastard for him when ned could and should have waited to name a true born son for his mentor. basically, the “because jon’s mother is lyanna and she named him aegon, which ned morphed to jon in an attempt to not 100% lie about his name” was offered as an answer (causing some of us to nod our internet heads sagely but others to scream “ashara is jon’s mother and ned must have blamed jon for the fact that he (ned) had to marry that shrew catelyn instead of his true love and mother of his favorite child, the goddess ashara!!!” i am, of course, toning down the hyperbole, but you get the point. 😉 erica, i was optimistic until i read this. i had noticed this during the year but seeing it laid out like that kinda sucked http://screenrant.com/game of thrones foreshadow predict daenerys death/ i don’t want to go too far out on a limb, but the article above makes clear parallels between aegon the conqueror and the newly revealed aegon targaryen; and there are already many parallels, some overt, between arya and visenya, the “dark sisters”. i haven’t seen many parallels drawn between sansa and rhaenys, but if those exist then … where might george be going with this? erica: i trust he’ll come to terms with what ned did for him (i believe he’ll be angry at first, but that’s hardly a stretch to imagine) and he was loved/wanted which i hope he comes to realize, too. at some point, jon is going to see what ned did and realize that, sometimes, one little boy’s life is worth more than one grown man’s honor. somehow, someway, ned’s example that what you think of yourself is more important than what the world thinks of you is going to hugely inform jon on what choice to make regarding the white walkers. and as the moment told the doctor, jon’s punishment will be to live. son_of_feanor: i’ve always believed that jon’s true name was “baelor,” which was why ned whispered this name right before he lost his head in k l.</blockquote doubtful. he said it to get yorren to turn to the statue of baelor to see arya climbing down from her perch. it was said for yorren to protect her. spacechampion: i learned today reading about henry i, the son of william the conquerer, that his daughter matilda was named after his wife matilda of scotland.but he also had many bastards, including three daughters who all three were named matilda fitzroy (the surname given amongst normans for bastards of kings).matilda, matilda fitzroy, matilda fitzroy, matilda fitzroy, and matilda of scotland   must have been very confusing around the dinner table. reading sharon kay penman’s book when christ and his saints slept bares that out; she did her best to give some of them different names but in the end you just had to remember who was who! oh and then there were all the thomases during henry the viii time… fascinating article and discussion. there was much i was not aware of in regards to the prophecy and the name. speaking of the book if i may   i was gifted with a copy of the illustrated 20th anniversary edition of games of thrones. its an absolute work of art, and am enjoying rereading it. oh and the arya tywin scene upthread was so wonderful, and made me wonder if tywin actually did know who arya was. i’d like it if he did. house monty: erica, i was optimistic until i read this. i had noticed this during the year but seeing it laid out like that kinda sucked http://screenrant.com/game of thrones foreshadow predict daenerys death/ i ignore all the wacky hypotheses floating around. until i see it on the screen, i don’t believe that either jon or dany are dying. more likely they are having that kid and ruling the seven kingdoms. ash: oh and the arya tywin scene upthread was so wonderful, and made me wonder if tywin actually did know who arya was.i’d like it if he did. no way tywin knew who arya was. if he did, he would have seized and captured her. tywin wasn’t half as smart as the show tried to make it him out to be. if he was, he would have known that his oldest children were shtupping each other and passing off their children as robert’s. worfwworfington, lmao no. azor ahai failed to forge lightbringer the first 2 times when he tempered it in water and through a lion. he only succeeded when he plunged it into nissa nissa’s heart. dany was successful in forging her lightbringer long back. so no reason for her to kill jon sorry not sorry. house monty, no kidding about charles ii. yikes. there’s a lot of cleopatra in dany, as well as henry tudor. wimsey, i agree. i don’t think any current character is going to be a nissa nissa, the original aa story was a legend and not meant to be taken so literally. besides, if this was going to be a factor, the show would have set it up in some way. there has not been a single mention of nissa nissa or even azor ahai for that matter (it is the ptwp that mel keeps referring to). simones: tywin wasn’t half as smart as the show tried to make it him out to be. if he was, he would have known that his oldest children were shtupping each other and passing off their children as robert’s. if he was, olenna wouldn’t have still been in possession of all that gold! i think the writers knew there would be a load of comments about why tywin didn’t take it when the lannister mines ran dry, and they attempted to head that off by having olenna say something to the effect that she’d find out when she saw him again, assuming they would end up in the same place. apparently that worked; i didn’t see any further comment about it from fans. but i did love any scene with arya and tywin. and i agree, he didn’t realize it was arya. in order to realize who it was would have required him to pay attention to ned’s children, who they were and what they looked like. i doubt that in the few times he might have been around either girl, he would bother to look at their faces long enough to remember them. he didn’t even pay enough real attention to his own children, as you said. bufferzone: i don’t want to go too far out on a limb, but the article above makes clear parallels between aegon the conqueror and the newly revealed aegon targaryen; and there are already many parallels, some overt, between arya and visenya, the “dark sisters”. i haven’t seen many parallels drawn between sansa and rhaenys, but if those exist then … where might george be going with this? the easiest comparison is their relative temperaments. while visneya and arya are no nonsense, martial, and hardened fighters, rhaenys and sansa are more feminine as we know the term. rhaenys and sansa were far less focused on battle and fighting to put it bluntly. they love music, poetry, songs of heroes and maidens while arya and visenya are more likely to idolize great warrior women like nymeria of the rhoynar. you can tell a lot about rhaenys and visenya from how they used their dragons. visenya saw hers as a tool for warfare and combat, a weapon against the enemies of their family closer to a warhorse. rhaenys loved flying with her dragon most of all and rode hers constantly enjoying the experience and being among the clouds. visenya rode to war, rhaenys for pleasure. neither pairing are exact parallels for each other, but these are easy points of comparison to make. ginny, hey, thank you! good to see at least one person has similar thoughts to mine. 😀 mau, but feudalism has been broken down in the course of the narrative. the asoiaf narrative has leftist/liberal/egalitarian leanings. mr derp, ok, but in his writing? he has to be conscious of the kind of narrative he’s reinforcing via his writing   he’s smart enough for this. and the asoiaf narrative in general *has* leftist/liberal/egalitarian leanings. it starts from feudalism, yes, but then *breaks it down*. phario forel, but asoiaf is not a historical work. it’s fantasy. so, it can do things a historical work cannot   for instance, have characters express ahistorical thoughts. and it’s been doing these things! for several seasons now, “cripples, bastards and other broken things”   women, eunuchs, commoners, outsiders in general   have been rising into power. it hasn’t happened in the books yet, but that’s probably only because they have not gotten to that point *yet*. so, the whole narrative, so far, *has* been leftist/liberal/egalitarian leaning. that’s why the inclusion of this “rightful heir” trope has been so puzzling and interesting to me. it very strongly feels to me that the only way its inclusion makes sense if it’s there to be, in the end, discarded and broken. house monty, i get that, but on the other hand, the night’s king can’t be killed by dragon fire or any other fire as we have seen, and he needs to be killed. so the weapon in question needs to be something that can kill him. dragons, as they are currently in the story anyway, can’t do that. i think you will get your satisfaction regarding the thematic symmetry. the creation of the night king bears a very striking resemblance to the story of nissa nissa. so my guess is that the weapon counterpart is not a dragon but dany herself who has a nissa nissa moment. marika, ah, so do you think it could be that lyanna wanted ned to advocate for aegon targaryen as heir to the throne and the reason ned has bad dreams and sorrow is because he never tried, instead keeping him as lowly bastard all those years? mr derp, preachin’ that wisdom 🙂 dark sister, why would the name aegon be impactful, and even “scary” to varys though? i wonder if it could have been melisandre. or whatever her original name was. ghost of winterfell: wimsey, i agree. i don’t think any current character is going to be a nissa nissa, the original aa story was a legend and not meant to be taken so literally. besides, if this was going to be a factor, the show would have set it up in some way.there has not been a single mention of nissa nissa or even azor ahai for that matter (it is the ptwp that mel keeps referring to). this is a strange perspective to me because this story pretty clearly shows the past repeating itself in modified form on pretty much every level. i agree that the myth is not literal and the way it plays out will surprise us, but it will play out. we watched the creation of the night king. he took a dragonglass shard in the heart, pinning him to a weirwood. nissa nissa in the myth is willingly sacrificed by sword in the heart. dany we have heard called “bride of fire” on several occasions, particularly by people who are involved in fire magic. and fire magic still has a major role to play. now that the night king has an ice dragon the situation looks extremely grim for the living. dany is just the type, particularly once she learns she is not in fact the rightful targaryen heir, to willingly weaponize herself, marrying fire, to take on the threat. the myth makes it seem like nissa nissa is a passive element of a story all about azor ahai. i think it will be quite different. but we will imo see a nissa nissa moment because the parallel to the creation of the night king is simply too strong to be accidental. ygritte, well i’m not completely convinced that the voice said “aegon” but perhaps something more open to interpretation that would cause red priests and priestesses to follow dany in the east, and at least in the books, varys being a faegon loyalist. i don’t even think varys knew the voice in the fire said a name. he was just so traumatized that he heard a voice at all. i was thinking the voice could have said “targaryen.” but i’m not sure if the show will re visit the conversation varys and tyrion had with kinvara so perhaps it will be left unanswered. flayed potatoes, yes, tom jones (henry fielding’s) is another example of a bastard with a simple name and a more complicated parentage. it seems to be popular theme. not to forget the incest! phario forel: i totally agree with your view, though i would generally avoid using modern political terms to describe the time and context in which the show takes place. it fairly resembles a medieval society   the technology and social structure etc. so, that said, whether it is dany’s birthright or anyone else with a birthright to the throne, it falls within the social structure that mr martin created and makes sense within that context. anything outside this context as yaga suggests, wouldn’t. the most ‘liberal’ thing that could happen in the end and would be a wheel breaker in the context of a medieval society if you will, , would be the lords of westeros exclaiming someone as a king or queen, choosing for instance between the available people with a birthright to the throne. but even that, would fall outside the structure of the time this takes place. we should all bear in mind that any term of democracy in the form we know it today, would be an alien concept and couldn’t be established. lastly, it’s important to remember we must tinfoil within the structures of society and relevant possibilites, and not massage into that our own concepts of what a society should be. so, it is possible to have a dragon, but it’s not possible to have democracy established. it’s possible to have a bastard on the throne, just as long as they have royal blood to have a claim to the throne. i would also like to point out, that as in lord of the rings so in game of thrones, aragorn and jon snow, do not take the throne because its solely their birthright: the writers make sure that those heroes earn that position, going through hardships, dangers, facing death and self sacrifice, to establish that they deserve it. which is why all hail the king when aragorn is crowned: he earned it in the hearts of those people (and in the heart of the viewer/reader), because he was ready to give his life for them, to sacrifice everything that was valuable to him in order to save them. which is what jon has done and is currently doing. and to my view jon being the king would be a natural outcome for the narrative, within the structure of that society which was created. i’m not a book reader, but this article was excellent, with much info i didn’t know: thank you joe! 🙂 the name aegon was fine by me   though i’m an unsullied, i have done my wikia reading so i knew a thing or two about the background. it was up to lyanna to decide, and i believe she chose wisely and meaningfully. i also like that ned chose a name totally unconnected and common to name jon, because that shows that to an extend not only did he want to keep his promise, but also to give the kid a totally ‘clean’ start of his targ lineage, to raise him like a stark. i believe that growing up as stark bastard, far from any discussions of birthrights, magical powers and courtiers, going through all that humiliation, going to the wall and learning how to put first the dictates of humanity and of the many, instead of his own ego, to honour his word, to step up when its needed and raise to the occasion, made him the trully deserving hero he’s become. 🙂 dark sister, i really thought they’d reintroduce kinvara in s7 to tease us a little more on that aspect of the story. what he heard must be of some import to the story as they brought in that scene in s6 after having earlier varys convo with (was it tyrion?) and showed man in the box. but varys hasn’t had much role to play lately, cant think of any aside from cryptic mel conversation. flora linden: flayed potatoes, ginny, charles ii of spain had a doozy of a family tree too. the inbreeding caused him to suffer all kinds of physical and mental disabilities. charles ii of spain family tree wikipedia entry wow. well, when you think about it, back in the day before people could travel much or far, and most people lived in small village and towns, this was probably very common, not just among royals. awol, if dany is nissa nissa i think i will vomit and consider my investment in this show and serious a spectacular waste of time (on a practical level it is a waste but so far an emotionally rewarding one). seriously the series is going to end by turning its main female character into an instrument by which the main male character gets the weapon he needs in order to realize his destiny as a hero? that sounds horrible. right up there with her dying in child birth as an atrocious ending. regarding the dragons, it’s not clear yet that they can’t kill the night king. all we have seen are white walkers extinguish fire that is already lit but have no sustained force behind them. if a dragon or multiple are blowing fire directly at one it feels like that would be a tad more difficult to extinguish but who knows. i think that he was named aegon by rhaegar intentionally. he believed that his heir is prince that was promised, he tought that it will be elia’s son, but then he tought about ice and fire part of the prophecy and believed that it must be a son born from ice, from lyanna, this is why he named him aegon. and council he wanted to assembly was meant to make lyanna’s son his heir, leaving out elia’s aegon. another important factor is the case of young griff who i believe will shortly rule as aegon vi and jon will rule as aegon vii. number seven is important not only in books’ lore but as well as in history, because aegon vii resembles henry vii and if you look at the history of henry vii and his father edmund tudor you will see that jon snow was based on them. house monty: if dany is nissa nissa i think i will vomit and consider my investment in this show and serious a spectacular waste of time (on a practical level it is a waste but so far an emotionally rewarding one). seriously the series is going to end by turning its main female character into an instrument by which the main male character gets the weapon he needs in order to realize his destiny as a hero? that sounds horrible. right up there with her dying in child birth as an atrocious ending. i think this is where melisandre comes in. she said she has to return to westeros to die so that makes me think of “sacrifice.” i can’t see her death coming at the hands of say, arya, just because of some old beef arya may have regarding gendry. that would be ridiculous, even by s7 arya standards. her sacrifice will solely be for the benefit to the war with the dead. i think she’ll play the nissa nissa role (it just won’t be referred to that on the show) and it may not come by way of sword through the heart, although that seems likely. it could come from the necklace she wears (glamour, i think?) erica, mel can be nissa nissa. that i am ok with since she is not the main female character who we have been following since the begging and so clearly on a hero’s quest herself. although, wasn’t azor ahai’s love for nissa nissa a key part of that story? how would that play into things if mel is nissa nissa? house monty: mel can be nissa nissa. that i am ok with since she is not the main female character who we have been following since the begging and so clearly on a hero’s quest herself. although, wasn’t azor ahai’s love for nissa nissa a key part of that story? how would that play into things if mel is nissa nissa? you’re right; but since it’s not mentioned on the show, i think it frees up d&d to take a little license here with the material. simones: no way tywin knew who arya was. if he did, he would have seized and captured her. tywin wasn’t half as smart as the show tried to make it him out to be. if he was, he would have known that his oldest children were shtupping each other and passing off their children as robert’s. that was not unintelligent: that was inattentive. moreover, it’s not like tywin spent a lot of time around his kids. when he did, he probably spent all of it expounding on his darwinistic worldview and interrogating them on how they would react to different sociopolitical scenarios. (as a real world comparison, it’s not different from the professor who fails to notice that two of his/her grad students are sleeping together!) awol: but we will imo see a nissa nissa moment because the parallel to the creation of the night king is simply too strong to be accidental. the show really should have set that up by now. quite frankly, i view that as too “fantasy”: and despite the fantasy trappings, this really is a character drama. awol: i get that, but on the other hand, the night’s king can’t be killed by dragon fire or any other fire as we have seen, and he needs to be killed. ah, again: this looks like a fantasy, but it’s not. no, the night king really does not need to be killed. what the story really demands is that the night king be understood. why did he turn on the children? why did he go away eons ago? why is he back? what does he want? these stories always hinge on damned if you do damned if you do not scenarios. unless this is going to degenerate into a standard fantasy tale, then it’s not going to be about pushing the night’s king into mt. doom! house monty: awol, if dany is nissa nissa i think i will vomit and consider my investment in this show and serious a spectacular waste of time (on a practical level it is a waste but so far an emotionally rewarding one). seriously the series is going to end by turning its main female character into an instrument by which the main male character gets the weapon he needs in order to realize his destiny as a hero? that sounds horrible. right up there with her dying in child birth as an atrocious ending. regarding the dragons, it’s not clear yet that they can’t kill the night king. all we have seen are white walkers extinguish fire that is already lit but have no sustained force behind them. if a dragon or multiple are blowing fire directly at one it feels like that would be a tad more difficult to extinguish but who knows. you misunderstand me. i said, the way it plays out will surprise us. the way the myth is constructed is supposed to make us think that nissa nissa is a passive instrument for a male hero. but the night king is not a passive instrument is he? i specifically said, the moment echoes the creation of the night king, which implies that anyone in such a role as nissa nissa would be the farthest possible thing from a passive instrument for male heroism. house monty: although, wasn’t azor ahai’s love for nissa nissa a key part of that story? how would that play into things if mel is nissa nissa? we actually know very little about the story. it seems that in some versions (e.g., the lone hero version), the nissa nissa character does not even figure that prominently, or possibly even at all. one constant theme of the story (both on screen and on page) is that fairy tales are 99 parts embellishment for every 1 part history. if we learn more about nissa nissa, then: 1) it will be in the books only; and, 2) we’ll learn that her circumstances were very different than portrayed in the fairy tale, even if the final outcome was the same. erica, again, that is too lord of the rings. the ending has to hinge on the main protagonists (jon, daenerys, tyrion, perhaps arya & bran) doing things that they really do not want to do because the alternatives are worse. again, i think that we need to look at what ned and rhaegar did long ago as foreshadowings for what is going to happen in the end: public shame in exchange for private honor. that past, rather than the undeveloped azor ahai story, is the key to the present. wimsey, but the nk does need to be killed. as we saw, it is the only way to defeat the army of the dead because if he falls, they all do. i am all for him being understood as well, but it is not like anyone is going to be negotiating with him to change his mind. that seems like even more ridiculous a notion than changing cersei’s mind. wimsey: we actually know very little about the story.it seems that in some versions (e.g., the lone hero version), the nissa nissa character does not even figure that prominently, or possibly even at all.one constant theme of the story (both on screen and on page) is that fairy tales are 99 parts embellishment for every 1 part history.if we learn more about nissa nissa, then: 1) it will be in the books only; and, 2) we’ll learn that her circumstances were very different than portrayed in the fairy tale, even if the final outcome was the same. they also tend to get distorted by a sexist lens, erasing the female role. the objection to the notion that dany might be nn seems rooted in the conviction that nn is passive. but that to me is where the distortion of the myth lies. nn is not passive. nn, after the key moment, is something terrifying but seemingly necessary. truly the bride of fire. wimsey, i have heard grrm talk a lot about his bittersweat ending and he frequently compares it to lotr’s bittersweat ending   the quest is successful but at great cost, some of the heros struggle to re integrate back into society and the scouring of the shire is an example of how defeating the great evil is never the end. given that comparison he makes, why do you think this is not setting up for a lotr style ending? wimsey, > no, the night king really does not need to be killed. what the story really demands is that the night king be understood. why did he turn on the children? why did he go away eons ago? why is he back? what does he want? i would really prefer the story to be that way, but d&d commented somewhere that the way to look at the night king was he is “like death”. of course, they are maybe misleading the fans (hopefully) but also beric was talking to jon in 7.6 the way they talk to us in the commentaries. has there been enough setup for the night king to be someone that can be negotiated with? all we know is that he got a dragonglass dagger in the heart, as did benjen, and how he creates the other walkers. in addition, the pyre of drogo was preshadowed in the first episode, and the dothraki horses in 3.1. don’t we need more backstory that has to be introduced before it turns out they can negotiate with him? all that is setup is that by killing the leader, the others will disappear. i hope that bran will go in the past and find out more, but it would be very late in the story. as i mentioned somewhere else, at this point the orcs in lotr (books) showed more character by their discussions than the ww/nk in got. house monty: awol, if dany is nissa nissa i think i will vomit and consider my investment in this show and serious a spectacular waste of time (on a practical level it is a waste but so far an emotionally rewarding one). seriously the series is going to end by turning its main female character into an instrument by which the main male character gets the weapon he needs in order to realize his destiny as a hero? . . it’s exactly how i feel about jon being dany’s nissa nissa. irrespective of gender, if the only purpose of one of the 2 main characters of the story is to be an instrument for the other one to turn out to be “the hero”, it would be a horrible ending for me enough to destroy the whole series, because it would more or less end up negating their growth and their arc completely. that’s why i just hate the thought of any of the main characters being turned into nissa nissa. wimsey: again, that is too lord of the rings. the ending has to hinge on the main protagonists (jon, daenerys, tyrion, perhaps arya & bran) doing things that they really do not want to do because the alternatives are worse. again, i think that we need to look at what ned and rhaegar did long ago as foreshadowings for what is going to happen in the end: public shame in exchange for private honor.that past, rather than the undeveloped azor ahai story, is the key to the present. i agree wholeheartedly that the end hinges on the main protagonists and that she is not one of them. perhaps it seems as if i’m trying to shoehorn melisandre in there somehow because she said she needed to come back to westeros to die. i can’t fathom her death coming by any way other than some sacrifice that will aid in the war effort. i don’t suggest she will be nissa nissa to the letter, as it were, since she was never introduced to the show. but, her death has to matter; the protagonists have to benefit somehow so that her arc makes sense, too. she’s not the be all to end all, but it should have meaning and i guess that was the logical situation in which to place her. awol, yea. i think that is part of it. in the nissa nissa story azor ahai is clearly the hero and nissa nissa is passive. i can see dany having a heroic death but i don’t see a heroic death being the same thing as playing a nissa nissa role. also, it feels like we already mined that well. to the extent we need a subversion/ decontruction of the tale, i think we already got one with stannis killing shireen. feels a bit confusing to have two nissa nissa subversions/ deconstructions that point in opposite directions. also, i think we are at the point in the story where all the core characters we were introduced to at the beggining of the story need satisfactory conclusions to their arcs. for dany, her arc is to return home to a family. if she gets pregnant and dies before childbirth that becomes a really tragic end to her story which i don’t think is what we are being set up for. but that could just be wishful thinking. house monty, awol, basically, i think it comes down to the pregnancy. if daenerys is pregnant i think she is safe. if she is not than she is probably a goner as her quest for home can end when she accepts jon as her nephew and realizes that house targaryen will continue after she is gone. ghost of winterfell, agreed 100%. with all this talk of swords what about the possibility of the sword of house targaryen, blackfyre, showing up at some point? the sword hasn’t been given any build up in the tv adaptation yet but it is a hand and a half ‘bastard’ blade used by aegon the conqueror during his conquest. (info about the sword here http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/blackfyre) could be useful for our own favourite bastard aegon? it would represent his ‘new’ found firey side alongside the icey longclaw. a king needs a kingly sword in a show such as got methinks and also longclaw has been bigged up it is not jon/aegon’s ancestral sword. another argument in favour of an appearance of blackfyre is that the golden company is apparently on its way to westeros and all i can remember about the company from ggrm’s work is their links to house targaryen and blackfyre. if, as i believe they will, the company abandons cersei and joins in the battle for the dawn, then the ancestral sword of house targaryen may well find itself right next to its rightful owner. thoughts? am i just convincing myself here or is it possible? house monty, and be reunited with drogo and rhaego in death. i find the whole idea of a pregnancy a bit saccharine and unnecessary. she lost the only child she was ever going to have and became mother to the dragons instead. the thought of them trying to credibly shoehorn a pregnancy into the last six episodes, especially if she were to die in either battle or childbirth, fills me with dread. ablueeyedgiantnamedmacumber: with all this talk of swords what about the possibility of the sword of house targaryen, blackfyre, showing up at some point? the sword hasn’t been given any build up in the tv adaptation yet but it is a hand and a half ‘bastard’ blade used by aegon the conqueror during his conquest. (info about the sword here http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/blackfyre) could be useful for our own favourite bastard aegon? it would represent his ‘new’ found firey side alongside the icey longclaw. a king needs a kingly sword in a show such as got methinks and also longclaw has been bigged up it is not jon/aegon’s ancestral sword. another argument in favour of an appearance of blackfyre is that the golden company is apparently on its way to westeros and all i can remember about the company from ggrm’s work is their links to house targaryen and blackfyre. if, as i believe they will, the company abandons cersei and joins in the battle for the dawn, then the ancestral sword of house targaryen may well find itself right next to its rightful owner. thoughts? am i just convincing myself here or is it possible? in the books, faegon probably has it to use as a legitimizing tool. there’s a cut dialogue where illyrio says in valyrian to give the boy the sword more or less. it was lost after the blackfyre rebellions, last seen with bittersteel. seems that illyrio and varys used their considerable resources to acquire it. i don’t know if it will show up in the show. they’ve cut most references to the blackfyres and have embraced the idea of the dragons marking true targaryens. important history of the sword, it was very rarely used in combat. more of a ceremonial blade. aegon used his dragons to conquer and was not known for his hand to hand skills. in its time, it was not seen as particularly important as what is a sword when you command dragons? it was after they died out that people began seeing the sword as the icon of the dragon lords. if you could ask torrhen stark why he knelt to aegon, very much doubt it would be because of blackfyre. ramsay’s 20th good man: house monty, “and be reunited with drogo and rhaego in death.” i think the chances of this being how she returns home declined significantly this season. being reunited with drogo and rhaego in the night lands made sense when drogo was the love of her life. now that she has found love again and with a targaryen to boot, i don’t think drogo can compete in terms of a home coming with another targaryen. “i find the whole idea of a pregnancy a bit saccharine and unnecessary. she lost the only child she was ever going to have and became mother to the dragons instead.” george wants his targaryen restoration i guess. her being able to have a kid again comes straight from the end of adwd. “the thought of them trying to credibly shoehorn a pregnancy into the last six episodes, especially if she were to die in either battle or childbirth, fills me with dread.” yea. thats why i think if she is pregnant she will live. there is not enough time for her to have a kid before the fight with the white walkers so she can’t have a kid then die in battle. and as i said, i don’t think she will die before giving birth. joemagician, what do you make of the dragons are lightbringer theory? thought about it based on what you wrote and how a sword can’t compete with dragons. my personal belief is that the showrunners changed jon’s name from x in the books to aegon on the show for two reasons, which aren’t mutually exclusive: 1) avoid potential audience confusion from having two characters on the show with the same name (similar to asha being changed to yara) 2) to use jon’s new name as a marketing tool for the planned got prequel series, which will inevitably focus on one of the five aegon targaryens. ensuring that got evolves into a multi property asoiaf franchise is a strategic priority for hbo. the best way to achieve this is to ensure that all current got fans are interested in the future prequel series. no better way to do that then changing the name of got’s main protagonist to aegon. house monty: house monty, awol, basically, i think it comes down to the pregnancy. if daenerys is pregnant i think she is safe. if she is not than she is probably a goner as her quest for home can end when she accepts jon as her nephew and realizes that house targaryen will continue after she is gone. whether or not it would be accepted by the audience, i think it’s entirely possible that daenerys could also die in childbirth, like her mother did. house monty, the whole concept just feels insufferable to me. there’s no situation where a magic targcest baby benefits the resolution of this story, in my opinion. if they have a kid and either jon, dany or both of them dies then it’s just a pointless tragedy, with the potential to reduce the characters to either incubator or sperm donor. like creatures whose lifespan exists merely to mate and then immediately die. and if they have a kid and rule together then it’s all too nauseatingly happily ever after. just thinking about what season 8 may hold is already filling me with trepidation. ramsay’s 20th good man: house monty, and be reunited with drogo and rhaego in death. i find the whole idea of a pregnancy a bit saccharine and unnecessary. she lost the only child she was ever going to have and became mother to the dragons instead. the thought of them trying to credibly shoehorn a pregnancy into the last six episodes, especially if she were to die in either battle or childbirth, fills me with dread. i don’t think it would be a “shoehorn” at all. i believe it’s going to end up being canon if we ever get the damn final books as i think it’s going to be a major final part of “the song.” mr derp, its certainly possible. if we just look at how many women in this world die of childbirth we would have to conclude the chances are not insignificant. by safe i meant dying in battle specifically. if she is pregnant, she is safe until at least having the kid. house monty: joemagician, what do you make of the dragons are lightbringer theory? thought about it based on what you wrote and how a sword can’t compete with dragons. my personal opinion is it is close to aegon and blackfyre. everyone remembers the famous sword while forgetting something important like a dragon or an army. even with aegon and only 300 years, many people forget that visenya and rhaenys were key parts of their success along with aegon’s bastard half brother orys baratheon. or with the show with how jon is credited for winning the battle of the bastards despite it was actually sansa and the vale knights. basically, azor ahai and lightbringer are symbols, important ones, but not the whole truth. ramsay’s 20th good man, if her arc is to return home, then a kid does make sense as a resolution to the arc although its not the only way to resolve it. do you think the talk of her being infertile this year was foreshadowing for the pregnancy or just reiterating that she cannot in fact have kids? ramsay’s 20th good man: and if they have a kid and rule together then it’s all too nauseatingly happily ever after. that’s really your problem with it isn’t it. you desire tragedy in your ending. there’s nothing wrong with wanting that, but really, most people don’t want endings like that. regardless of what george says about anything i don’t think he’s planning to finish his tale with an unsatisfying ending. while it may not happen i would be happy with that happily ever after. i’ve already written that my perfect ending has jon and daenerys sitting on drogon and rhaegal side by side on the edge of (preikestolen) surveying their kingdom. 😛 joemagician, thanks for the info! i guess aegon was too busy holding on to his dragon to be wielding blackfyre! 🙂 whether j aegon gets the sword or not isn’t really important of course but i thought it could be part of the scene where he is told he is a targaryen and could create a narrative of putting jon snow aside (and his sword) and becoming who he was born to be (in a moment reminiscent of aragorn in return of the king). clob, i’m referring to the limited remaining screen time when i talk of it having to be shoehorned in. house monty, sadly, i think they were probably foreshadowing it. if they were just trying to reiterate the impossibility of her producing an heir then they wouldn’t have had jon question whether she’d been reliably informed. there should be no question at this point about whether or not dany will get pregnant. she obviously will. the real question is what will happen as a result. clob: that’s really your problem with it isn’t it. you desire tragedy in your ending. you did notice that i wrote this… ramsay’s 20th good man: if they have a kid and either jon, dany or both of them dies then it’s just a pointless tragedy… …in the same comment you selectively quoted, right? 🙂 i just don’t really want the nauseating fairytale ending. not to this story. mr derp: there should be no question at this point about whether or not dany will get pregnant.she obviously will. the real question is what will happen as a result. i’d like to add that i don’t think dany will have problems with this inevitable pregnancy except perhaps initially when she learns who jon really is. cersei is the one in trouble. the prophesy said 3 children. if she survives the pregnancy, the child will not, just like the first born from robert she mentioned in the show. house monty: awol, yea. i think that is part of it. in the nissa nissa story azor ahai is clearly the hero and nissa nissa is passive. i can see dany having a heroic death but i don’t see a heroic death being the same thing as playing a nissa nissa role. also, it feels like we already mined that well. to the extent we need a subversion/ decontruction of the tale, i think we already got one with stannis killing shireen. feels a bit confusing to have two nissa nissa subversions/ deconstructions that point in opposite directions. also, i think we are at the point in the story where all the core characters we were introduced to at the beggining of the story need satisfactory conclusions to their arcs. for dany, her arc is to return home to a family. if she gets pregnant and dies before childbirth that becomes a really tragic end to her story which i don’t think is what we are being set up for. but that could just be wishful thinking. your assumption here is that the myth is accurate and complete, when absolutely everything about how myth and prophesy works in this series tells us it is not. yes, the myth constructs nn as passive and practically absent really. but that is my point: that is what such myths and histories do to women and there is absolutly no reason whatsoever to believe that is true. noone was looking for a woman, aemon directly states. sexism distorts myth and history. i say that is where we will be surprised by how the nissa nissa thing plays out: nissa nissa will rurn out to be no more passive or less dangerous than the night king. ramsay’s 20th good man: you did notice that i wrote this… …in the same comment you selectively quoted, right? 🙂 i just don’t really want the nauseating fairytale ending. not to this story. oh i know you wrote that. i was just pointing out that that is your ‘problem.’ you don’t want for it to end with something as positive as a baby targaryen, or overly happy at all. you may want it to end with everyone dead… maybe not. the scenario you’re saying you don’t want because it’s too fairy tale doesn’t have to be attained and completed that way though. a lot of death and destruction is likely to lead to the final scenes so that alone would make it different. the ending doesn’t have to be of them riding off in a wagon toward the sunset. i don’t think them both being alive and together at the end after leading the living through the seven hells makes it a fairy tale. oops, i posted my nissa nissa comment in the wrong thread. here it is where it belongs. i don’t understand the obsession with a “nissa nissa moment”. the show, as far as i can remember, has not recounted the full azor ahai legend, of which nissa nissa is part. (in the books, salladhor saan tells it to davos.) both show and books, mel has recounted the azor ahai reborn prophecy. born amidst salt and smoke, bleeding star, wake dragons from stone yadda yadda, and pull a sword = lightbringer from fire. mel even staged a little show for stannis to pull a sword from one of the burning statues of the seven (the mother, iirc). not a nissa nissa in sight. the azor ahai reborn prophecy sounds a lot like the arthurian legend: pull a sword from stone. excalibur was already made, arthur just needed to pull it out. we don’t know who made excalibur or how. for lightbringer, we even have the origins story. the way i see it, lightbringer has already been made (with the help pf nissa nissa), now somebody just needs to claim it. no need for a second nissa nissa moment, it isn’t mentioned in the aar prophecy. also, i don’t think lightbringer need to be a literal sword (that was mel’s interpretation, and we all know how wrong she can be). lightbringer is obviously a crucial “weapon”, literal or metaphorical, to defeat the nk/long night. could be knowledge, dragons, an alliance of “lightbringers”, what have you. even a literal weapon. we’ll have to wait and see. (also, this long night won’t be very long. we only have 6 episodes (or 2 books) left! everything has to be resolved by s8e6/end of book 7. maybe it won’t end with spring and sunshine and flowers but we need to know this winter won’t be any worse than a normal westerosi winter. maybe this battle for dawn will even end the wonky seasons so you’ll get all four in a year, like we do in our world. grrm has said the reason for extended, irregular seasons is “magic”, so maybe some “magic”   or cessation thereof   can put the seasons to rights.) wimsey: arya and yara sound very different. ah now, you see, i don’t think they do. they sound very similar to me. as you say, different accents can have quite an effect. and the names use exactly the same letters! if they felt they needed to drop asha because of the closeness to osha, then why not go for something that bears no resemblance to the name of any other character. there are literally hundreds of names that could have been chosen that are totally different. talvikorppi, i don’t think there is any particular obsession with a nissa nissa moment. and i don’t think it matters in the slightest to what extent it has been mentioned or not in show and books. this is what we do have: 1. a bran vision specifically showing the night king being made, via a stabbing in the heart. it is a form of sacrificial magic to create something that was supposed to help the cotf in their war against men, at a time in that war when they were desperate. 2. a legend that mentions a stabbing in the heart, and a religious cult, equiped with powerful magic, who take as their symbol a flaming heart. 3. a situation that is now clearly quite desperate in the latest “great war”. the nk has an ice dragon, at least three zombie giants, and his army is past the wall. the living have nothing to bargain with. the nk is on the verge of winning. so what are the living going to do? 4. a promise in the show that the red priests will return and their role is not over. so what is that role? imo, the use of their magic to defeat the nk, which of course must come at some cost and be vaguely disturbing in nature. this is where it frankly becomes extremely significant that the very symbol of their cult is a flaming heart. i am not obsessed with nissa nissa per se. i just think dismissing it as an irrelevant detail is a mistake given the above facts. clob, jon and daenerys sat on the throne, with a child she thought she could never have, having chosen love over the taboo of their incest, having defeated the evil (night) king and queen, and overseeing a healing kingdom is pretty much the default for a fairytale ending to the show at this stage. nothing can water that down unless they’ve somehow come to despise each other, like robert and cersei. but that ain’t gonna happen. talvikorppi, i disagree that lightbringer has been made, but of course we will see. i frankly think we would not have a legend of the forging if we were not meant to witness history repeating itself (in modified form) and so we are witnessing the story of the forging via the events of the story. i fail to see the point of the legend at all otherwise. ramsay’s 20th good man: clob, jon and daenerys sat on the throne, with a child she thought she could never have, having chosen love over the taboo of their incest, having defeated the evil (night) king and queen, and overseeing a healing kingdom is pretty much the default for a fairytale ending to the show at this stage. nothing can water that down unless they’ve somehow come to despise each other, like robert and cersei. but that ain’t gonna happen. perhaps a fade to black ending, sopranos style instead? jon snow sits at a table at the inn at the crossroads while journey’s “don’t stop believing” plays in the background. he looks through the menu, occassionally looking up at the door to see when dany will appear to meet up with him. suddenly, someone wrapped in a cloak appears behind jon, a brief turn in position allows the audience to see that the cloaked figure is lady stoneheart, then everything fades to black forevermore. that’d be a great way to piss off the fandom 🙂 derp! the more i read about rhaegar the more i am convinced he was a loony. it may be that daenerys was the one sane child of the mad king. i have nothing against aegon (plus it kind of sounds like jon), but one has to admit that a name that is shortened to “egg” is not exactly hero material. the only one to blame is grrm, however. awol, sorry to have implied you, or people in general here on wotw, are obsessed with nissa nissa. i was thinking about some other corners of the internet where lots of people want various characters quite literally get nissa nissaed (as in: stabbed through the heart by a sword) by various other characters, depending on who’s each commenters favourite. pick any name among the main two dozen or so named characters, pick another in the same pool and you can find a nissa nissa theory. ( ten bears beware, i’m sure the “sandor clegane stabs the only person he’s ever truly loved, arya, through the heart to forge lightbringer to become azor ahai” theory exists somewhere. 😉 ) i think i mainly object to the literal interpretation of the legend and then just copypasting to the current story, ignoring a specific prophecy mentioned in both show and books, with no nissa nissa moment. i like your idea about the parallel of the creation of the night king and the azor ahai legend (though… doesn’t that lead to the nk being nissa nissa? :o ) and thinking in metaphorical terms. there’s the idea of history repeating itself, with subtle changes, so second time around you do something slightly differently and get it right. (the first lot obviously didn’t do everything right because the nk/long night etc. is back… though, what held them back for 8000 years? why now?) awol, the other thing that is problematic with the dany is nissa nissa idea is that cersei survived the season. i don’t think cersei has yet to lose everything she holds dear yet to the younger more beautiful queen. given that dany remains the most likely ymbq candidate, it is likely the cersei/ dany confrontation is not over yet and that dany will survive the great war. the only other viable ymbq candidate at this point is sansa so i guess thats possible. just not the most likely outcome. i’m not into any nissa nissa stuff either (the very name is cornball and i feel like punching myself just for saying it), but i do think it’s interesting that sandor made a point to show arya “where the heart is” back in season 4. i feel like that’s a gun that has to be fired at some point, whether it involves some nissa nissa thing or not. house monty: awol, the other thing that is problematic with the dany is nissa nissa idea is that cersei survived the season. i don’t think cersei has yet to lose everything she holds dear yet to the younger more beautiful queen. given that dany remains the most likely ymbq candidate, it is likely the cersei/ dany confrontation is not over yet and that dany will survive the great war. the only other viable ymbq candidate at this point is sansa so i guess thats possible. just not the most likely outcome. i’ve always preferred sansa for that role anyway. to me dany never made sense for ymbq because she had nothing whatsoever to do with cersei’s loss of her children, which was far more significant a loss than anything she has left. sansa may not have known she was involved with joff’s death, but she was all the same. and i think the books may well give her an indirect and subtle role in tommen and/or myrcella’s deaths as well even if the show version couldn’t manage that. mr derp, right after that she pierces rorge with needle and sandor says “you’re learning”. i thought that was the gun. awol, preference is different from what is most likely. for sansa to end up queen and strip cersei of the last thing she cares about   power   either she is going to have to marry someone or she is going to have to conquer it. the best person she could marry to become queen is jon since he is the “rightful” heir and that feels very low probability at this point for obvious reasons. her conquering it also seem very low likelihood since she has no army, no dragons no nothing with which she could realistically mount a conquest. of course, anything can happen, but looking at the chess board right now a lot would have to change over 4 6 episodes to make this realistic. fdr, certainly, but it seemed like an important detail that wasn’t put out there just to give arya some idea of how to kill rorge. she already killed at that point. she didnt need instructions on how to kill. the fact that it was all about “where the heart is” tells me it’s more than just about killing rorge. rorge was practice. awol, yes, i broadly agree with you. history repeating itself in slightly modified form, as you said. i’ve never taken the original azor ahai legend literally. aa plunging the sword through the heart of his most beloved, i think, is a metaphor (or “legendified” explanation of what happened). i think the point is that you have to make huge personal sacrafices to combat the threat. i firmly believe that “lightbringer”, whatever it is (i hope not just a magical sword) has been “forged” but is now forgotten, in hiding, and it takes “azor ahai reborn”/”the prince that was promised”/”the new last hero”/(insert your favourtite prophecy here) to rediscover it, its secret, and use it in this round 2. uugh, i’m not very good at explaining my ideas. i think we broadly agree, maybe disagree in details. house monty: awol, … i don’t think cersei has yet to lose everything she holds dear yet to the younger more beautiful queen. given that dany remains the most likely ymbq candidate, it is likely the cersei/ dany confrontation is not over yet and that dany will survive the great war. … what cersei holds most dear is power. power to escape the cage she was put in as a highborn daughter of a great lord. in adolescence, daddy and aunt genna promised her she’d marry crown prince rheagar and she wanted him and becoming queen way more than she ever wanted boring old jaime. but that plan didn’t happen. instead, she was shipped off to marry the new king, boorish robert. maybe she had some maternal feelings towards her incest babies that she passed off as robert’s. but these kids were also her ticket to power, so she did her best to manipulate them. every time i saw cersei with tommen on the show, i immediately thought: manipulation! remember the cersei/jaime hug after she tells him she’s pregnant. she finishes the “tender” moment with a reality check and a threat: never betray me again. jaime’s face was a picture. then, in the s7 finale, jaime finally ditches cersei, rides north on a black horse, dressed in black, having ditched shiny lannister armour and the white charger (obligatory to all knights in shining armour). jaime has finally seen the light. he’s going north to join dany and jon and the great war. so you could argue that the younger, more beautiful queen (dany) has taken one of the things cersei holds dear. except, cersei doesn’t actually hold jaime very dear. he’s useful but nowhere as important, or dear, to cersei as her power. she understands nothing about the real jaime, she’s not interested because she thinks jaime is her with a cock. she completely misses the point that she and tyrion are actually the more alike, both power hungry schemers and jaime is the odd one out, desperately trying to be the honourable good guy. they have such different mindsets. the lannisters are interesting. it’d be really boring if all the lannisters all agreed and were as wonderful as the starks, who apparently are the perfect family and soon sing kumbayah around a camp fire in winterfell. (i hope not.) house monty, that’s the thing though. sansa does have something jon needs: a claim to the north. the targ alliance is not going to go over easily there, particularly once jon’s identity is known. but jon is still part of the wolf pack, and they will be looking to stick together. i don’t see it taking all that long. there is some sort of drama involving tyrion and jon’s identity complicating the new love affair between him and his aunt. dany heroically lets go of her sustaining dream of ruling westeros in order to confront the greater threat. once that threat is somewhat contained, jon and his sisters tame rebellion in the north by marriage, and together they settle the issue of cersei. awol, there’s still potential going into the final season for a fairly unexpected resolution, such as that which you describe. jon’s parentage could cause shockwaves politically and problems between he and daenerys. and the white walkers still exist as a means to remove any piece from the board at this late stage, without it feeling like a total cop out. it’s hard to predict whether there’s still some great ironic twists left in grrm’s ending for the producers to tell, or whether we’re on course for a pretty predictable ending now that jon and daenerys seem the most obvious answers to all remaining questions. awol, we will see. i don’t think sansa and jon are getting married. but we will find out which way it goes in a short 18 months…. 🙁 for me the bigger question is why did jamie get such a shit name? “cersei”  cool name bro. “tyrion”  great name, kinda similar to ol’ dad “tywin”. and then there is “jamie”  really? so lame. lajuice, it’s not ‘jamie’. it’s spelt jaime, as in the spanish/portuguese version of james. but pronounced differently. so it’s one of the got names which is almost an english name, but not quite. like eddard, robett, samwell, rickard, jeyne …. lajuice: for me the bigger question is why did jamie get such a shit name?“cersei”  cool name bro.“tyrion”  great name, kinda similar to ol’ dad “tywin”. and then there is “jamie”  really? so lame. “jaime. my name is jaime.” have you stopped to think why this lannister perhaps has an ordinary, “soft” name? ramsay’s 20th good man, its kinda funny how an aunt nephew ending up together is the fairy tale ending house monty, yeah, but it’s only fairy tale if they’re just so madly in love that they don’t care about being aunt and nephew. if they’re not happy about it, but marry out of duty or personal sacrifice for the good of the realm and perhaps end up kinda miserable (like robert and cersei), then it’s not so fairy tale. presentation counts. grrm confirmed it was elia and her son in the hotu vision many years ago…so no it’s not lyanna and jon i don’t have any problems with jon being named aegon .if we just go by that name was given by lyanna ….he is always going to be jon snow whatever name he was given by anyone… the problem only comes when people bring rhaegar and him believing aegon to be the name of tptwp.. because people forget that elia birthed aegon after the tourney of harrenhall which means rhaegar has already seen lyanna and he still believed elia son to be tptwp by dany’s vision..so it doesn’t make any sense rhaegar changing his mind all of a sudden …of course i am a firm believer that this whole annulling thing is show only for a simplified version of getting across that jon is legitimate.. speaking about light bringer ….people are forgetting to separate nk and ww … we haven’t seen ww walk through dragonfire only nk .. it’s pretty much given that dragons are lightbringers when grrm had jon read about the story of aa fighting a monster and dany killing kraznys at astopor match word for word … about nissa nissa…it’s clearly drogo…i mean grrm had both dany and drogo call each other moon of my life and sun and stars. ..he also have the story of how if both got together dragon will birthed from the moon ..here dany just reverses the gender.. i have a doubt i don’t know whether people already came up with this or not …if bran saw lyanna named jon as aegon targaryen last season shouldn’t he know by that time that jon is legitimate … things like this are why we need to stop analysing or over analyze things from the show because they are just ticking the boxes at the moment from one plot to another and we should just enjoy the entertainment it provides and the summary of an ending it provides which we will not be getting from grrm lajuice: for me the bigger question is why did jamie get such a shit name?“cersei”  cool name bro.“tyrion”  great name, kinda similar to ol’ dad “tywin”. and then there is “jamie”  really? so lame. hey! that is my husband’s name you are talking about! fictionisntreal: the show has changed character names before, like asha becoming yara. robin arryn is never referred to as “robert”, though that is his real name. it’s possible they didn’t want jon to have a targaryen name the show had already used. i think this is it exactly. the show may not have wanted to introduce a second aemon. the character names are hard enough for some viewers. they may remember hearing the name aegon before in reference to aegon the conqueror, but the fact that rhaegar had already used the name isn’t widely known. grandmaester flash, i always thought it was a reference to “j’aime” (french for i love, which is his theme) and cersei to circe in odysseus. mr derp, who knows, her skills should have some effect on the plot (in the books the freys are probably exterminated by lsh so arya will have something else to do). i think the hound simply gave her a lesson on “where the heart is” (a particular quick kill). then arya applied it immediately to rorge by piercing him through the heart (hence “you’re learning”). i know the show doesn’t have a good record on lethal versus nonlethal wounds, so yeah, maybe she missed the heart but the script prescribed that rorge died anyway, then my argument is void. and maybe she will indeed apply the lesson more than once. house monty: awol, we will see. i don’t think sansa and jon are getting married. but we will find out which way it goes in a short 18 months…. 🙁 well there are other possibilities as well even if they don’t. i think it is very unlikely, given grrm’s lack of interest in writing a fairy tale ending, that both jon and dany will survive until the very end and beyond. it is even entirely possible that both of them will die. so if they both die, who is left? top contender is sansa. and if sansa dies, then arya. a marriage to jon is not the only way one or both can become queen because jon is not invincible. fdr: i always thought it was a reference to “j’aime” (french for i love, which is his theme) and cersei to circe in odysseus. could be, nice thought. cersei as far as i know is not a recognised name anywhere, so it does seem to be a conscious reference to circe. ramsay’s 20th good man, they might not end up madly in love. i think there is foreshadowing for daenerys to sit the iron throne: s6e10: dario tells her she will get that crown she wants and he just hopes it makes her happy. there is foreshadowing for her dying with an arrow through the heart: tyrion in s7e6, jorah in s7e7 then there is foreshadowing that can cut both ways dany e7e6 “we will talk about the succession when i wear the crown. at first glance i thought one of these is clearly false foreshadowing. but one way they could both be accurate foreshadowing is if the arrow through the heart is not an actual arrow but a broken heart. so she ends up sitting the throne but with a heavy heart in some way. and yet, in the end, he will be and will always have been   jon. this is my first comment ever. over this weekend while rewatching some of my favorite scenes and thinking about other theories on the web, i had a thought and just ran with it. jon and meera reed are rhaegar and elia’s children. the mountain didn’t kill them. they were orphans and with lyanna by the time she gave birth to dany. yes, dany is rhaegar and lyanna’s child not jon. lyanna telling ned “his name is aegon targaryen.” ned could have easily asked her about the other children with her at the tower of joy. rhaegar had three children. aegon (jon) and rhaenys (meera reed) elia’s children and dany, lyanna’s child. the three dragons. jon and meera fit the description of the dornish people. apparently dany remembers lemon trees as a child. look up house dalt of dorne sigil. jon (aegon) goes to the north with ned, meera (rhaenys) goes north with howland reed and dany (visenya) stays in dorne until she eventually leaves westeros. but my whole theory is based on the mountain never actually killing elias children. i haven’t read the books yet. is it possible that the mountain didn’t kill the children? i suppose the writers could change that in the show. i just felt r+l=j was just too obvious and not very exciting. so unless someone says there is no possible way because…, this is the story that will happily sit in my head for the next two years. please let me know 😊 i know we have faegon in the books and the trolls on westeros.org were up in arms but i’d be amazed if jon’s real name on the show is not coming directly from george given everything we know. that said, what his real name is makes no difference he’s jon, been called that all his life so very unlikely to change. the only two things that matter is that he’s a) the true heir to the throne and b) a stark and targ. violator: the name could be significant or it could not be. if not, then dan and dave may have chosen to give jon the name aegon because it’s more familiar to the tv audience and they haven’t included young griff in the show. i mean, has the show ever actually named rhaegar and ellia’s children? if not, then there’s no harm in calling jon, aegon and everyone unfamiliar with the books is non the wiser. we’ll know if jon finds out his given name is something else if and when george actually reveals it to us. i suspect that regardless, he will end up wanting to be called jon regardless. in hindsight, i’d imagine the show cut young griff purely because they knew aegon is jon’s name and that faegon will die in winds of winter (cersei is taking him down i suspect). house monty: erica, i was optimistic until i read this. i had noticed this during the year but seeing it laid out like that kinda sucked http://screenrant.com/game of thrones foreshadow predict daenerys death/ thanks for sharing i hadn’t see this article however both james hibberd and kim renfro (two of the most informed got journalists) have done predictions for s8 where they both predict one of jon or dany will die and the dragon queen is the most likely. it makes sense to me given the narrative but i wouldn’t totally rule out jon dying. pbro: my personal belief is that the showrunners changed jon’s name from x in the books to aegon on the show for two reasons, which aren’t mutually exclusive: 1) avoid potential audience confusion from having two characters on the show with the same name (similar to asha being changed to yara) 2) to use jon’s new name as a marketing tool for the planned got prequel series, which will inevitably focus on one of the five aegon targaryens. ensuring that got evolves into a multi property asoiaf franchise is a strategic priority for hbo. the best way to achieve this is to ensure that all current got fans are interested in the future prequel series. no better way to do that then changing the name of got’s main protagonist to aegon. sorry but have to debunk your marketing tool theory, s7 was written well before the prequel discussion came out in the media and d&d are not running that. jon snowed: thanks for sharing i hadn’t see this article however both james hibberd and kim renfro (two of the most informed got journalists) have done predictions for s8 where they both predict one of jon or dany will die and the dragon queen is the most likely.it makes sense to me given the narrative but i wouldn’t totally rule out jon dying. love kim renfro’s content. but i saw an interview with her where she talked about reading the season 7 leaks and being surprised at jonerys. made me lose any confidence in her ability to predict anything. if you couldn’t see jon and dany getting together a mile away than not sure what story your watching. between the name of the book series, all the foreshadowing from the books, all the parralells between them in the show and episode 6×10 this couldn’t have been clearer. literally in 6×10 dany tells dario i am breaking up with you in order to make myself available for a marriage alliance right before jon becomes a king and the only person it would make political sense for daenerys to marry. the only way they could have made it more obvious is if they had named the series after them or something. 🤔 i think, that even with all the comparisons that have been made between jon and aragorn here (and they do mirror one another in a lot of ways, as some characters and storylines do between asoiaf and lotr), the linguistics have been missed. to me, one compelling bit of evidence for aegon being jon snow’s targaryen name simply the fact that, like the characters, the names mirror one another, especially when using the æ sound established on the show. aegon and aragorn could almost, linguistically, be variations on the same name. comments are closed. who really has the strongest claim to being heir to the driftwood throne of house velaryon? 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merry christmas eve, kids! i love christmas. i love christmas a lot   always have. i love decorating my little geeky tree, i love making house sigil snowflakes for my window, i love hanging with my family (my brother in law brings his nintendo 64 on christmas eve and we play all kinds of mario kart and goldeneye). it’s just a really nice, magical time for me. but i also love you guys. not in a sappy way, but i know that this blog, the tumblr, the podcasts   none of that would mean much of anything if we didn’t have fans like you all reading, listening, commenting, and generally being awesome. it’s really awesome to be able to engage in the fandom as we do here at wars and politics, and i can say that the vast majority of interactions i’ve had with my work on here have been wonderfully positive and enhanced my experience of the series. so i wanted to do something nice for you all   a little christmas present, as it were (or a present for whatever holiday you celebrate   if nothing else, today is national eggnog day). for the past   eh, more time than you want to know   i’ve been transcribing our very first podcast episode, “i come not to praise rhaegar targaryen”. if any of you have ever transcribed video or audio, you know how fun it can be, and i am by no means a professional at this. there were moments i could not for the life of me make out what was being said (even from me!), so i made a best guess; for a 90 minute podcast, i think i did a pretty good job. so if you’re hearing impaired   if you’re a visual rather than an audio learner   if you want to read along like those books on tape we used to have in my library, where the book and the tape came in a cute little bag together   any reason at all, you’re welcome to enjoy this transcript. i hope you all have a merry christmas, and if you celebrate a different holiday, i hope you have a wonderful time as well. enjoy the season and have a safe and happy 2016! the queen regent (nfriel) contributors: nina (nfriel) jeff (bryndenbfish) jim (somethinglikealawyer) hamish (militant_penguin) jeff: so hello and welcome to the first ever joint recording for the wars and politics of ice and fire podcast, a podcast dedicated to george r.r. martin’s a song of ice and fire, with special emphasis to political, military, and pseudo historical analysis of the series. my name is jeff, otherwise known as bryndenbfish, and i’m joined by everyone else from the podcast team today, so we’re gonna go round the horn real quick and get everybody to introduce themselves, so the first person we’ll talk to is nina, so nina, go ahead and introduce yourself  nina: hey everyone, blogosphere, i am nina, but you may also know me as nfriel, if you read the twitter, excuse me, if you read the reddit or the blog itself. i just finished my first series for the blog, called “the dragon’s ladies: the queens of rhaegar targaryen”, loving it, loving writing for the blog, and happy to be here! jeff: ok, so, you’re, you just finished your essay series, so what would be your favorite book in the whole series? nina: i really loved the new world of ice and fire, i think not only is the artwork gorgeous, but it’s so much great information and so much not a lot of questions answered, but a lot of  more great questions given, which i find even more exciting. jeff: that’s that’s a fair point. and who’s your favorite pov character? nina: ah, favorite pov, um, gotta give it to sansa, i love her. we we have a mutual interest in fashion. [laughs] jeff: [laughs] ok, and your least favorite pov character? nina: ooh, quentyn. sorry, it’s quentyn, he’s he’s just super boring, i do not remember a darn thing that happens in his chapters, sorry. jeff: ok, and then your favorite minor character. nina: umm, i’m gonna have to give it to alys karstark on this one. she’s someone that’s, ah, always been super cool on reads of dance with dragons to me. she recognizes bad situations when she’s in them, figures out smart ways to get out of those situations, and then best one of the best quotes of a dance with dragons, marrying a guy that she doesn’t know, who doesn’t speak her language, and is from a totally different culture   manages to say “let him be afraid of me.” that is a badass 16 year old. jeff: that is a pretty cool quote. nina: [laughs] jeff: um, and what are you drinking tonight, anything interesting? nina: i i am drinking, um, gatorade, which is mostly gone, but through, through a nice little straw, courtesy of my parents’ special delivery. [laughs] jeff: very nice. ok, so next up we have jim, so jim, go ahead and introduce yourself. jim: hi everyone, i am jim, otherwise known as somethinglikealawyer on reddit and on tower of the hand. i’ve been on wars and politics of ice and fire for about 15, 16 months, and in addition to contributing on wars and politics of ice and fire i also contribute as a regular columnist to tower of the hand. in wars and politics of ice and fire i tend to specialize on writing about minor characters, especially political actors in the series hoster hoster tully, jon arryn, and my latest essay was on rickard stark, and on tower of the hand right now i’m writing about the bad guys of of the series. my column there is called “the worst men in westeros”, and i’ve got columns on craster and the slavers of slavers’ bay. jeff: very nice. ok so what’s your favorite book in the series? jim: i have to say a storm of swords, there’s a lot of political action, and a lot of things that were being developed over the first you know, the previous two books come to a head, and followed very closely by a clash of kings, because i really like the political the political establishments that are that are going on in that. jeff: ok, and then who is your favorite pov character? jim: i have to say it’s my boy, the onion knight, ser davos seaworth, he’s humble and and that’s the thing i like the best actually. i wrote one time, “in a land where men’s egos have tiny capes and crowns of their own ” nina: [laughs] jim: “davos remains humble and honest, and fixed to his duty.” jeff: and the most romantic character, too. jim: i’d agree, yeah, i’d agree. jeff: i mean, he has the best relationship with his wife, obviously. jim: oh, very much so. in “davos iv”, in a dance with dragons, when he’s in the wolf’s den, he’s writing to letters to his son and his wife, and i remember, it was a really striking quote i heard, when he said “i was a better smuggler than a knight, a better knight than a king’s hand, and a better hand than a husband. i love you, marya.” nina: awww. jeff: that’s an awesome quote. it’s one of it’s one of those quotes that doesn’t get, like, tossed around a lot when people talk about their favorite quotes, but it’s up there for me, probably in the top 10 of the best quotes from, from a series of books that’s full of great quotes. ok, so now you, got, you got your favorite pov character, who’s your least favorite pov character? jim: my least favorite pov character is daenerys, and i know she’s a protagonist  nina: [snorts] jeff: and antagonist! jim: well, everyone’s a hero in their own mind, isn’t that what  jeff: that’s true. jim: isn’t that what george r.r. martin said? but i, i find the action in her books to be quite dull, i find that she seems to have everything kind of break her way with little effort on her own part. everything just kind of seems to kind of fall into her lap i always made the joke that if tywin lannister or robb stark had three dragons fall into his lap, the war the war of five kings would have been over in a heartbeat. jeff: pretty much. yeah, i think i agree with that, too. ok, so now who is your favorite minor character in the series. jim: my favorite minor character is lord tytos blackwood, and he’s got a very lovely set of chapters with jaime in a feast for crows, and it’s just he talks about, you know, being honorable, fighting even though he knows the cause is lost, and all he really wants is his son’s bones returned, and not to mention that in a game of thrones, he leads a he sallies forth from riverrun and hits the shield wall from behind  jeff: that’s true, yeah. jim: during the battle of the camps, and, when catelyn needs to go to treat with renly baratheon, he says “well, you need protection, so here’s my son, here is lucas blackwood”, and lucas blackwood becomes one of robb stark’s personal guard. nina: and he also has that kickass cloak. jeff: ahh, that was gonna be my line! nina: [laughs] jeff: you stole my line! nina: well, you can’t have all the credit. jim: well, she did  jeff: damn you, nina! damn you! jim: nina did say she had an interest in fashion, so, you have to  jeff: that’s true. jim: you can’t can’t fault her for that. nina: i’m the girl! jeff: well, even me, who’s the most unfashionable probably of all of us, like, i would wear that raven feather cloak everywhere i would go if i had the chance to, i mean, i would get weird looks, obviously, but still wear it, because it’s you because it’s a statement. jim: well, i would also say that you would get some weird looks, but most of those looks would be, like, “man i want that cloak.” jeff: [laughs] jim: you would be drinking their envy. jeff: is it envy? ok, cool. i’ll get right on that. nina: [laughs] “now i just need 500 ravens.” jeff: [laughs] yeah, exactly. that might be a little bit of an environmental violation. ok, next up we have hamish, so hamish, go ahead and introduce yourself. hamish: hi guys, i’m hamish, i’m militant_penguin on reddit, you’ve probably read a few of my essays and i just one out a couple weeks ago about the supposed case, well, the curious case of domeric bolton, where i made a few assertions that i don’t believe that ramsay actually killed him. it was received pretty well, and i like all the feedback you gave me. as for favorite book, i’m gonna go with a dance with dragons. i know it’s not everyone’s favorite because of the cliffhangers, but i really love the, like, northern storylines and how this is stannis’ turning point and the reveal of wyman manderly’s greatest plot in the north. favorite pov character, i’ll go with jim, it’s got to be, it’s definitely got to be davos, it’s always davos. he’s just he’s just so frickin humble and you you can go back and think “i just can’t like anyone else, he’s just the best guy ever.” least favorite pov character, same with jim again, it’s got to be daenerys. it’s just, i don’t enjoy the sense of entitlement that i get from her chapters, and the fact that just, a lot of her stuff just sort of swings her way. i like people who struggle to get what they have and who don’t just like, you know, walk into a fire which would have killed anyone else and emerge with three apache gunships to take over the entire  jeff: [laughs] hamish: the entirety of essos and slavers’ bay. favorite minor character, as i’m sure a lot of you gathered from my various essays and my flair, it’s got to be wyman manderly again. “beneath the crust the tasty frey”. jeff: [laughs] hamish: so yeah, that’s me, and i’m happy to be here with the rest of you guys. jeff: and i’m jeff, otherwise known as bryndenbfish, i i think my latest essay was about daenerys targaryen who, apparently, two thirds of my compatriots here hate, but it’s about daenerys  nina: well, half, because we’re four. jeff: well, but i mean, well, two thirds of my compatriots. i’m not a compatriot. i’m outside of you guys. so, it’s two thirds. nina: wait, i’m confused. [laughs] jeff: i think i’m talking to a bunch of social studies majors here, essentially. nina: [laughs] jim: i’m an engineer, believe it or not. jeff: and to be honest i was a history major in college. nina: woo! hamish: same. history and politics. jeff: so my latest essay was on daenerys targaryen in the winds of winter called “the dragon’s mercy: the violent future path of daenerys targaryen: part 3”, which is called “blood for blood”, and i have two more essays in that series left to go, and then i’ll be finished with daenerys targaryen and can focus on some other cool stuff. my favorite book in the series, is, like hamish, it’s a dance with dragons. i think that the complexity, the moral complexity is borne out best in a dance with dragons, as well as it shows the consequences of the war of the five kings and dany’s conquest of of slavers’ bay and all these types of things, and plus, you also have a fantastic northern storyline, and you have great asha chapters, of all things, in a dance with dragons. they’re the ones i’ve actually really been enjoying the most in my latest reread. my favorite pov character is jaime lannister, i find that he is the most complex character, and i think that it’s a triumph of the literary world that george r.r. martin was able to redeem a character that all of us thought was a complete asshole in a game of thrones, even in a clash of kings  nina: which, to be fair, he was. [laughs] jeff: he was, and it kind of brings up kind of an interesting side discussion about whether george really intended jaime to be an asshole throughout, and then decided at some point, when writing a clash of kings, or early in writing a storm of swords, like [different voice] “hey, you know what? it would probably be good to have this guy to, you know, show some complexity and the human heart in conflict with itself.” [normal voice] i think that’s kind of what happened, to be honest  nina: that was a great george r.r. martin impression, by the way. jeff: that was a terrible george r.r. martin impression. nina: you just told that story so you could work in your george r.r. martin impression, it’s fine, it’s fine, keep going. jeff: [laughs] so so my least favorite pov character is arys oakheart. i think he’s the most unnecessary pov character in the entirety of the series. i know that nina completely disagrees, but he  nina: no, not “completely disagrees”, i defended him once, and now you’re like, “yyou’re the most pro arys person on the face of the earth.” jeff: you are though! i don’t know a single person who’s, like, “my favorite character is ” nina: i’m trying to say, ok, devil’s advocate, what is the one good thing about him being a pov character? jeff: he’s essentially yeah, i know what you’re saying, you’re saying that he’s the character that is an outsider going in so he represents the reader’s perspective in the series  nina: we’ve never seen dorne, he’s a complete outsider to dorne ok, it’s not the least defensible thing i’ve ever heard. could he have been folded into arianne? absolutely. he didn’t need his own pov. but if you’re gonna defend him that’s how i would defend him. what can i say. i’m a proto lawyer, what do you want from me? jeff: and my response to that would be that you know, they didn’t need an outsider coming in to winterfell, they had bran and catelyn and eddard and jon and sansa, all these characters in the northern storyline in a game of thrones, we didn’t need an outsider’s perspective going in. my favorite minor character that’s kind of a tough question, to be honest, i don’t i don’t know. gosh, i don’t i don’t know who my favorite minor character is. hamish: does stannis count as a minor character? nina: [scoffing] no, stannis is a major character. jeff: [laughs] stannis is a major character. well, he’s not a pov character. hamish: what about the blackfish? i feel like i just enraged half the subreddit by insulting their lord and master. jeff: you know, i am i am bryndenbfish, and then i read stefan sasse’s essay on bryndenbfish, excuse me, on brynden blackfish, and, i i kind of came to a little bit of a more grayer perspective i like the blackfish as a tactician, but i don’t know that he’s really that good, and i know those are fightin’ words for jim. hamish: and fightin’ words for me, too. jeff: [laughs] i guess i guess if you had to really put it to the question i would say, um, who’s the the dwarf who’s the historian from the, um, the princess and the queen and the rogue prince? nina and jim: mushroom! jeff: mushroom! yeah. mushroom would probably be my favorite minor character, because he’s just the most hilarious historian. he’s just the most ribald, inappropriate, perverse, tyrion lannister esque character, but he happened to write history, and write an insider’s account of the events of the the dance of the dragons and on the rogue prince, daemon targaryen. so, our topic tonight is on someone that’s very popular, or very well known in the fandom, and that’s rhaegar targaryen. and the title of our podcast tonight is “i come not to praise rhaegar targaryen”, which is kind of probably a little bit different of a take than, than a lot of folks have on rhaegar. rhaegar’s a very popular character, a very romantic character, but as we were talking through the topic, we all kind of came and had a bit of a negative impression of of rhaegar. and to kind of illustrate that i thought it would be kind of a fun exercise to kind of give one sentence impressions of rhaegar targaryen, and i’ll start myself. i think that rhaegar targaryen was an interesting, albeit idealistic, fool, essentially, and one of the biggest ones of the entire series. jim: if i were to say one sentence, i would say he was a reckless egotist whose prophecy obsession nearly exterminated his house. jeff: that’s good. nina: yeah, i kind of kind of along the same vein as rhaegar to me is someone who is willing to risk everything willing to gamble everything short term on the long term assumption that history will prove him right, and it ends up costing him him and his house completely in the short term. hamish: i’d say that rhaegar was unconsciously well, he was consciously uncoupled from reality. he didn’t communicate well, he prophesied worse, and he didn’t see the reality for what it was. he was chris martin targaryen. nina, jeff, jim: [laughs] hamish: and you know, going off of that fact, i think if we if this is what we think of rhaegar, a lot of other people, within the series, think a lot differently from us. a lot of people think, like, he was universally regarded as a paragon of virtue and nobility everyone except for robert, robert baratheon, and for good reason. robert hated rhaegar, and that hate drove him, that hate fueled war, that hate killed rhaegar, that hate followed robert right to the grave, and even i was looking for this quote recently, it was like eventually, when robert’s on his deathbed, or near enough, he knows, he accepts that winning the crown wasn’t worth it, it was a hollow victory for him. he didn’t get what he wanted, he didn’t get lyanna, and he he realizes that rhaegar ultimately won. it’s like you see this, other than robert though, he was the case of pure hatred. on like, a more from an above ground view, from other characters, pov and on the ground as well, we see that rhaegar is generally well regarded by a lot of people, despite the fact that he’s been dead for nearly twenty years. although you see like you see this in our own history, like, you regard dead people as decent people even if they were horrible people. jeff: john f. kennedy would be the american example. hamish: churchill would be the example in our our example, as well. like, he was obviously a war hero, but he was not a great person. but being dead and being a war hero sort of eclipses you, gives rose colored glasses. but yeah, it’s like, the dead don’t have a voice, but the positives clearly speak for rhaegar, even after he’s long gone. jim: and part of that is actually a nostalgic vibe that i’m really getting. and we’ve actually experienced in in our own history. in during world war i, there was a real sense of unity in america, and then after that, there was what was called the “lost generation”, it was a generation that was seemingly adrift, without purpose. and ernest hemingway actually wrote wrote a lot about that, the sun also rises is just one i can pop off the top of my head. when the way i’m seeing it, is that the characters look around, and they see the world, and it’s terrible. the finances in the realm are going to crap, there’s wars, there’s murder, but, 20 years ago, things were so much better. the north, the vale, the riverlands, the stormlands, they were all united in a sense of purpose. aerys targaryen was a clear monster, and needed to be taken out. there was a righteousness of that cause. and there was a unity everyone was behind robert baratheon as this single rival claimant, the one who was going to take the throne when he succeeded. and now, there’s just, there’s nothing really like that, there’s no galvanizing purpose. now, i’m certain if they all knew about the invading others and their zombie army, they would, that would certainly be a galvanizing purpose, but that’s what what they have, and so rhaegar, who doesn’t have this modern analog to this terrible time, is looked upon favorably because those times were looked upon more favorably. jeff: yeah, but it’s not just just that he’s looked at nostalgically i mean he definitely is but there’s also this really strong class distinction that also flows into it. you know, if you look at all our povs in the entirety of the books, there’s not a single member of the smallfolk; you have davos, but davos is not really a member of the smallfolk, he’s been removed from that for 20 odd years or so at this point, or 15 years, rather, at the start of a clash of kings. and and really, the smallfolk don’t have much of a voice in in westeros, so you know, you have, in that arya chapter in a storm of swords where she’s wandering around, and one of the smallfolk says, “oh, we this would never have happened had had the good king been there” and arya says “you mean robert?” and he says “no! good king aerys!”, you know [laughs], kind of like, that’s the smallfolk perspective encapsulated in one thing, they don’t have much of a voice, and they’re probably not very informed to be honest, either. hamish: although, you see that sort of bias even in nobility characters as well. you’ve got like jorah mormont, a guy who actively fought against rhaegar and the targaryen cause during robert’s rebellion, he’s got, like, an entirely neutral view of rhaegar, like, well, ok, maybe not neutral, but he basically talks about how rhaegar was “the last dragon” and compares him greatly to viserys, whom he calls “less than the shadow of a snake”. to call a targaryen a dragon, like a person to equate a man with a beast that could conquer and forge nations is a hell of a compliment to pay to someone. he says “rhaegar fought valiantly, rhaegar fought nobly, rhaegar fought honorably. and rhaegar died.” jeff: yeah, it’s really really interesting like, kind of, the same way that, jorah kind of idealizes rhaegar in terms of his heroism, jaime lannister also does the same, but he also looks at him as, he kind of idealizes rhaegar by contrasting him to aerys ii. you know, aerys was the murdering, raging psychopath, and rhaegar wanted to call a council to unseat a tyrant. and but the other thing too is that jaime’s perspective is badly colored by, by the fact that he was unable to protect rhaegar’s children. so he has that, a huge amount of guilt stemming from that. jim: the dream chapter, i think, makes it really plain, because you hear it. [dramatic reading] prince rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “i left my wife and children in your hands.” “i never thought he’d hurt them.” jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “i was with the king . . .” jeff: that was an excellent reading. jim: thank you. nina: 10 out of 10. jeff: very emotional. nina: but kind of going off the same thing that these soldiers are glorifying rhaegar, barristan is clearly also glorifying rhaegar. he’s he’s sort of in a similar position to jorah in that they’re both kind of connecting to daenerys by comparing her to this great lost hero of the targaryen cause, which is rhaegar. but barristan is also like jaime, in that he’s comparing what could have been this great king, rhaegar, to the not great king, aerys. which, i’ve talked about this before, barristan is someone who clearly has has blinders. it’s not rose colored glasses, he’s not totally blind to aerys’ faults, but his whole identity is being a good kingsguard, which means finding a good king to serve. he had that under jaehaerys, he has aerys who’s just, he’s not a good king, and that’s pretty much where it ends. so, in barristan’s mind, the trident is is such a such a loss, because you lose what could have been this great king, a king that barristan would have been proud to serve under. hamish: although, you sort of, to contrast barristan, a guy with blinders on, like, really positive blinders on, you have ned stark, a guy who has more reason to hate rhaegar than anyone. if most of the fan theories are true, rhaegar had practically destroyed ned’s largely destroyed ned’s family. like, but he never thinks badly of him, he barely even considers him. well, but, then again, there is the chance that, ned is not he doesn’t want to think badly of rhaegar because rhaegar may ultimately be jon’s father, and he doesn’t want to see jon and think, “this guy is the son of the person who caused hundreds of thousands of deaths, including my dad, my brother, and my sister, and there’s only me and brandon [sic] left.” and you can see that’s completely different to what barristan did. barristan is very overly complimentary toward rhaegar where ned didn’t even consider him, which is telling in and of itself. nina: yeah, i’d say i’d say that’s right, and i’d say the way ned reacts is very similar to the way doran reacts. both of them are viewing rhaegar really not so much for who he was but for what he meant to their beloved dead sisters. ned is viewing him through lyanna, doran is viewing him through elia, and while doran never he only gave a minimum amount of of soldiers, to robert’s rebellion to help the targaryens, he’s very very focused on avenging elia and is very disturbed by her death and the deaths of her very young children. so it’s yeah, he’s someone that, his whole mission in life, he and oberyn have worked for 15 plus years to make sure that the people who were responsible for elia’s death meet the same brutal end that elia met. hamish: although, it’s like, like, how we sort of have the neutral view of ned, we also have the even more extremely positive view of jon connington. now jon connington is an interesting case study in what obsessive love looks like, and how dangerous it can be. jon connington feels incredibly guilty about rhaegar’s death, he thinks he’s responsible because he failed to kill robert baratheon at the battle of the bells. you see him regard rhaegar as like, “i rose too high, i loved too hard, dared too much, i tried to grasp a star, overreached, and fell.” he wanted to be around rhaegar as much as possible, he considers him something that lights up the sky, and you see this love has not paid off for jon connington in a great way for the majority of his life, he’s lived in exile, he talks about not failing about failing the father but not wanting to fail the son. he just wants to live to see aegon live, to make up for his own guilt about rhaegar’s death. because he’s dying, jon connington’s dying, and that’s all he cares about, he wants to die content, knowing that he saved the son of the man he loved. nina: yeah, and that   and that love is really the powerful thing. joncon is viewing him through a largely romantic light, in the same way that cersei is. cersei had believed since she was six years old that this was the guy she was going to marry, and rhaegar, to her very young eyes, is the ideal of what a young girl could marry. he’s a great knight, he’s very soulful looking, he’s very gallant   he’s the epitome of chivalry, and it’s interesting that cersei meets him when she when he comes to the west when her father throws a tourney in 276, and she says, “when she had been presented to him, cersei had almost drowned in the depths of his sad purple eyes. he has been wounded, she recalled thinking, but i will mend his hurt when we are wed. next to rhaegar, even her beautiful jaime had seemed no more than a callow boy.” that’s high praise from cersei   if you’re comparing him to jaime and he’s way outclassing jaime? that’s high praise, and cersei, when he dies, she never forgives robert for killing him, and even goes so far as to throw honors and a fleet on aurane waters, a guy that she has zero reason to trust   considering he fought for stannis   but she does because he looks like rhaegar. she explicitly says, multiple times, he has the same silvery hair as rhaegar, and that’s what makes her trust him. jeff: it’s kind of funny, you know like, kind of an an aside, your point about cersei’s idealization of rhaegar is similar to sansa like, as you were saying that, i was thinking like “man, that’s very similar to how sansa regarded joffrey very early on in a game of thrones.” nina: oh, absolutely. jeff: and it’s hilarious, later on to hear when to hear cersei’s thoughts about how “sansa’s just an idiot, this idiot girl”, and and when you realize, you know, cersei and sansa have are very similar, or at least have very similar  nina: oh absolutely, they’re both highborn women who love the system they’re in because it’s working for them and  cersei’s kind of the the dark path of what sansa could could go down. you could become cersei. jeff: yeah that’s true. hamish: i also think it’s quite weird when you think about how she regards jaime as a callow boy in face of rhaegar, when she talks about how her and jaime were meant to be together, like they’re mirrors of each other, how much she’s a twisted narcissist, and she still thinks the person who’s a perfect mirror image of her is not as good looking as another person, so it’s really weird when you think about that. jeff: almost sounds like a podcast topic. nina: [laughs] jeff: so, cersei’s father though, tywin lannister, and rhaegar it’s a really interest relationship, and it’s different from almost any other character in that tywin lannister   actually, it’s similar to one character in one respect. tywin lannister looks at rhaegar targaryen in relation to aerys ii, and he’s looking at it in a political sense. he sees that aerys is the guy who just, basically, just shat all over house lannister’s honor and the family honor that was theirs. but rhaegar rhaegar could be that person that could restore the lannisters to prominence. you know, aerys, as nina demonstrated in her essay today, you know, aerys and tywin had a good relationship for 5 years or so, but after they had their falling out and had a decline in their relationship over time, i think aerys began to look to excuse me, tywin began to look to rhaegar as the pivot for him to restore himself to power as well as to get rid of this guy who’s just like a total asshole to house lannister. you know, there’s that famous quote from the world of ice and fire, the defiance of duskendale, where, you know, tywin is there with his whole army outside of the walls, and rhaegar is there as well, and he says “oh, there’s the only true dragon i’ll ever serve” and you’re like “come on, man!” i get it, you’re stuck with a bad situation, but if aerys survives, that relationship is done at that point. nina: well, if i can even add some context to that, the the whole thing was so at duskendale, aerys is is the captive of the darklyns, he’s in the dun fort, there’s no way you’re gonna get in into duskendale, and tywin’s plan is basically “well, we’re just going if they don’t give up within a certain amount of time, we’re just going to go in guns ablazing and we’re just gonna raze the entire place.” and they say “tywin, they will kill aerys if you do that” and that’s when he says “it doesn’t really matter, because we have another dragon.” so, at that point, tywin is like, “you know what, hands wiped with aerys, like, i don’t care what happens to him, all of my political hopes are on this guy.” hamish: actually you know what, when you think about, there’s actually something about [how] he makes the decision to send barristan selmy in, and when you consider that in the grander context of the kingsguard, all the other kingsguard you could easily claim are rhaegar loyalists. you’ve got hightower, whent, who clearly had a role in planning the tourney of harrenhal, you’ve got martell, who’s the uncle of rhaegar’s own wife, and you’ve got arthur dayne, rhaegar’s best friend, and one person you barristan, while he liked rhaegar, was ultimately loyal to the king, and if he was sent into there and killed during the fighting, you’ve essentially opened up a space for another rhaegar loyalist by essentially sacrificing a king loyalist. nina: hmm. interesting point, jeff: that’s an interesting point, yeah. jim: no, that is that is a good point, wow, didn’t even think about that. but what’s really funny is that all of the people that are viewing rhaegar view him in either political terms or they view him in personal terms, or romantic terms, or something like that. but what really defined rhaegar himself was actually a fixation on the supernatural, this prophecy, this “prince that was promised” prophecy, and, you know, he was born at summerhall, and we don’t know exactly what happened in the tragedy of summerhall, there’s a couple of very interesting theories, including one by steven attewell of race for the iron throne fame where he was going to be sacrificed as a in a blood magic ritual to restore dragons to the world, which is it’s a fascinating theory  nina: [laughs] jeff: a dark theory is what it is [laughs] jim: it is a dark theory but that doesn’t that hey, sometimes the dark theory  nina: [laughs] when has that ever stopped george r.r. martin! jeff: [laughs] i retract my point. no i don’t! it’s still a dark theory. it’s a plausible dark theory. jim: and then we have this very very interesting snippet from the world of ice and fire where it talks about “saved but for the valor of the lord commander”, and we don’t know exactly who was “saved but for the valor of the lord commander”, who at the time was ser duncan the tall, but a a baby isn’t gonna last long in a burning castle, so i would say maybe the person that he saved that duncan saved was actually queen rhaella and her infant rhaegar. that i think it makes perfect sense. but he was obsessed with summerhall, he often went to the ruins and played his harp, and this prophecy fixation also lended to the actual “prince that was promised” prophecy, and the one thing i found is really interesting, is that first he believes he is the the one who will fulfill this prophecy, he mentions that he has to he will require sword and armor and must be a warrior, which makes me think that whoever this “prince that was promised” is, he needs to either perform some feat of arms or he has to be skilled in arms in some fashion. and then later when there’s that vision of rhaegar and elia with the infant aegon, he says that he is the prince that was promised, and his is the song of ice and fire. and, you know, so did that mean rhaegar believed he was no longer the one who was going to fulfill it, or was simply   he was the second head of the dragon, and then, the future third would be the kid he would have with lyanna? that’s possible. the thing that’s tantalizing is that we don’t actually ever see this prophecy. we don’t even know if it exists in a complete state, or if there are just snippets here and snippets there, filed away in some book somewhere. we don’t know, and that’s something that’s just fascinating, at least to me, because, how did he know that he was was there some characteristic? was there some deed that he had to fulfill? we don’t know this, and since there are many likely candidates for the prince that was promised that are being kicked around   daenerys, jon snow   are we going to be able to find out who’s actually going to fulfill this prophecy, i mean certainly, that would be  nina: [laughs] i’m going to say “no”. jeff: why not? jim: that would certainly turn the idea of “the chosen one” on its head and that’s that’s something this series is pretty famous for. jeff: that’s true. nina: you know, if i can just throw in one thing that’s i wrote about this a little bit in my essay series. rhaegar is clearly obsessed with prophecy, which is might be considered weird but, for the targaryens, prophecy is sort of this it’s this thing that they’ve always had and it’s actually been helpful to them on multiple occasions, they’ve they’ve come to rely on it for the past several centuries, at least, if not going back farther in their valyrian past. you have people like daenys the dreamer, who’s the daughter of the targaryen who left the freehold, she had a dream that prophesied “valyria is going to be destroyed, we have to leave”, and it was, 12 years after they left, and she wrote down a whole book of prophecies that we see rodrik harlaw reading about, although it’s now considered lost, in a feast for crows. and then you have various targaryens suffering or being blessed by, depending on how you look at it these “dragon dreams”, where they’re viewing dragons and, usually, standing for literal targaryens. so you have daeron the drunken at the tourney of ashford who dreams about ser duncan slaying a dragon, and it turns out to be well, not slaying, but standing over a dead dragon, turns out to be baelor breakspear, who collapses onto ser duncan as he dies. you have daemon ii blackfyre, who dreams about a dragon hatching at whitewalls, ends up being young prince aegon, who ends up sort of foiling the blackfyre conspiracy there. so it’s not so weird that the targaryens would be obsessed with prophecy, but rhaegar just takes it to   to a whole new level. jim: absolutely. hamish: just jumping in before jim gets back to his point. when you brought up that thing about the whole sacrificing the infant rhaegar to wake dragons, to bring them back, you know, it’s sort of a weird parallel with the others, how they apparently use craster’s children to add into their own numbers, which we’ve sort of seen semi confirmed by the show. nina: hmm. hamish: it’s sort of a weird parallel between the two, they both use children to increase their own power. jeff: i mean, melisandre says in a storm of swords, you know, “the blood of the innocent is the most pure”, or :the greatest thing”, or what’s that quote that she has  nina: it’s like “the blood of innocents is most pleasing to r’hllor” or something. jeff: and you’re like “lady, you are such a psychopath”, or maybe she’s not a psychopath  nina: i mean, to be fair, why are you relying on melisandre as an authority on anything? [laughs] jim: well, she does know a lot of magic. jeff: she does know a lot of magic. but she’s also i rely on her more to talk about the thematic side of it, of magic, how magic requires this kind of sacrifice of innocents, essentially, and in rhaegar’s case, at summerhall, if rhaegar’s sacrificing theory is true. by the way, if you guys haven’t seen the history and lore videos that came out with season 4, there is one about rhaegar’s birth at summerhall, in which, egg looks practically demonic as he’s about looks like he’s about to sacrifice something over an altar. you have to look at the videos! nina: [laughs] i know what you’re talking about! i know what you’re talking about. jeff: so it’s, it’s potential evidence for it, but it also talks about you know, rhaegar as an innocent, as a baby is essentially a sacrifice to magic to fulfill some prophecies   you know, objectively evil. but, you know, for the the characters   whether it’s egg, or jaehaerys, or whoever it was that was behind it   for him, it was about the greater good, essentially, in bringing about magic or dragons to enact aegon’s reforms for the smallfolk or to fight the others if he had like some sort of prophetic vision or something like that. jim: well certainly the greater good i mean, if you have someone saving the world that is, pretty much the greatest good you could really find. nina: [laughs] jeff: hey, what is one life against a million? hamish: everything. jeff: yeah, exactly, that’s what davos says. stannis is kind of like  hamish: he’s on the edge, basically. jeff: essentially, yeah. good tangent, guys. good tangent. jim: yeah, no, no, it’s always interesting to talk with you guys about this. but so he’s obsessed with this prophecy, and it drives all of his actions, and he really loses loses grounding with the actual physical world for the sake of the metaphysical and supernatural world. i mean, politically he doesn’t have very many friends at all, and if you’re the heir apparent you really should be cultivating good relationships, and other people would be trying to cultivate good relationships with you. i mean, you are going to wear the crown one day, and it’s always nice to have the man in charge as your friend. and really, only arthur dayne and i think oswell whent were really close to to rhaegar. and one person i know he particularly wasn’t close with was his father, aerys. nina: not so much. hamish: which is such a shame though, if you think about it. i get the feeling that if aerys was told, “you have to marry your sister”, a person he didn’t love in that way, for the sake of birthing this savior from their line, and then it turns out this kid is the most bookish awesome kid of all time, in my opinion  jeff: [laughs] hamish: and like, you see   imagine the disappointment, like “aw yes, i’m going to have this perfect warrior who will savior who will save the world. oh god, my kid likes to read.” jeff, nina: [laughs] hamish: when rhaegar starts he learns his arms, he becomes a knight, he’s a tourney champion, he’s skilled, he has he takes on squires. i can imagine how proud rhaegar would have been not rhaegar, how aerys would have been  jeff: but when you establish those kind of initial impressions you know, growing up, rhaegar is kind of, his face is in a book all the time, aerys is going to be like, you know, “what the fuck, man? i thought this guy was supposed to be the prince that was promised, and this guy can’t get himself out of a book.” you establish that for like 15 years, it’s hard to undo all that in a span of, what, 7 or 8 years before rhaegar dies? nina: and the amount of disappointment that aerys is facing because he’s he’s been forced to marry this sister that he didn’t want to marry whatsoever, specifically so that they could have this kid. hamish: but i can imagine how proud he would have been, like saying, “oh good, he’s starting to turn out like that. woman from the woods promised my dad, so he can go suck it now.” jeff: [laughs] hamish: but then the defiance of duskendale, like, aerys was already a bit testy in the head, if we’re all being honest with ourselves, he wasn’t exactly all there, if we go through history’s mad kings, he was a bit extreme. but then duskendale happened, and he gets worse, and i imagine tywin didn’t help this by saying “oh we’ll just let him rot in there for six months and hope he gets killed and then we can have rhaegar.” imagine how annoyed, like, depressed you’d be, everyone hates you and wants you gone in favor of your more awesome son that you didn’t like for a while. and calling having the better king right there, like, that’s gotta be disheartening, and like, divides you from your son. you see the madness, and you see rhaegar possibly funding harrenhal to call together a great council to maybe depose aerys or force a regency or an abdication, he doesn’t you don’t summon a council if you want to simply overthrow your dad. you hire assassins or you start a war. if you go out of your way for a council, you want to force your dad off the throne in the most peaceful way possible cause it’s despite their strange relationship, at least on the part of aerys i can see reading between the lines, i can see rhaegar loved his dad. he clearly cared about him and didn’t want to hurt him but he knew he couldn’t be left in charge and had to be taken out of power, and he wanted to do it in the best way possible, and it was only ruined because aerys was so paranoid. jeff: well, do you guys think rhaegar had like “southron ambitions”, or, excuse me, like political ambitions? jim: i’m not sure, but i do know there was another conspiracy, the arryn stark tully baratheon conspiracy, the “southron ambitions” of stefan sasse fame, and that’s a famous theory and a famous conspiracy, but i can’t say that  that rhaegar had southron ambitions because of how well he completely destroys any chance that he could have of a political alliance. i think actually his goal was simply to get his father away because it’s ruining the realm and put himself into place so that he could actually get the realm together to actually face this supernatural, metaphysical threat so it’s kind of southron ambitions, but i don’t think it’s actually from a political standpoint, i think it’s actually more from a metaphysical, supernatural, apocalyptic standpoint. hamish: it’s personal as well. jim: certainly. hamish: it’s sort of like, he decided to save the realm. it could be personal as well in this metaphysical or supernatural, like, he doesn’t want to see his dad get killed, but he knows he can’t continue, so he wants to save the realm and save his father, so that’s another reason. it’s personal, it’s metaphysical, it’s it’s sort of running parallel to southron ambitions, but they’re not crossing over at the right points. jim: which is a shame, because they could have. very easily. hamish: tragic in its own way. jeff: ok, let’s no, they couldn’t have done it easily, i mean think about this. you have three major families that are conspiring against the king. imagine this. imagine they go and they’re like “let’s see if we can get rhaegar targaryen in on this”. it’s like they’re really rolling the dice there, like, you know, you want to kind of hit a soft landing. if they go up to rhaegar like “hey, would you like to kill your father and set you up as the king? would that be cool? you want to be a kinslayer? we’ll do it for you, don’t worry, we got this, we’ll take care of it. you cool with that?” what if rhaegar says no? i mean, they are fucked, you know, they are totally fucked. nina: “oh, btw, just a little light treason on the side.” jim: “a little light treason.” hamish: all of them all they keep saying is “ok, we won’t do it” and then winking out of nowhere. jeff: [laughs] jim: the grand westerosi wink theory. nina: [laughs] “well, we won’t do it again. never heard of someone doing treason twice.” jeff: [laughs] nina: but no, what i was going to say earlier in terms of rhaegar’s political ambitions is, on the one hand i kind of see him in sort of this george iv of great britain position, where his father is the king, his father is clearly going crazy, and he has this sort of, it’s a little dangerous because, well, now that he has brother viserys that aerys is very protective of, aerys could easily say “you know what, i’m just going to name viserys as my heir” and suddenly rhaegar finds himself out of a job and possibly out of out of life. so, on the one hand, it’s a “well, i gotta protect myself” sort of thing, “the more i can secure myself power now, the less likely my father  crazy father is going to try to depose me.” but on the other hand i wonder how much political [sic] he actually had, in the fact that we don’t really see him taking any action in what could have been his greatest political move, securing a wife for himself. it’s entirely, what i think, an aerys mission to get a wife for rhaegar, and maybe that’s his age, maybe it’s aerys being crazy and controlling, but rhaegar, if he really wanted to, could have really pushed for something   a greater political scheme with a marriage that we just really don’t see him doing. instead you have aerys who, has these sort of dual desires. on the one hand, he wants someone of valyrian blood, and he’s not going to get that with rhaella, and “gee, thanks jaehaerys’ generation that now we don’t have any other targaryen lines that we can marry into.” but on the other hand, aerys is very paranoid. he does not want a bride from a great westerosi house, especially if that bride’s father happens to be named tywin lannister. you see you see him sending steffon baratheon to the free cities where, not only are all the girls there valyrian blooded, but free city girls tend not to do so well merging culturally with the westerosi. you have lady mellario, who ends up leaving doran and leaving her children to go back to norvos, you have viserys ii’s wife larra rogare, who goes back to lys and abandons her children, and you have lady serala darklyn from myr who gets burned alive and people say that wasn’t enough punishment for her, even people who liked lord denys. so there’s really a great tradition of, “free cities, you’re not going to have a lot of supporters in westeros”. but, that turns out to be a failure, so   on more than one account   so aerys has to look to the only place he can look, which is dorne, which not only has a targaryen lineage through daeron ii’s sister daenerys, but is also the weakest of the seven kingdoms, which means, “if they’re going to rise against me, not going to be that much of a threat. we’ve got the reach right next to them, they’re never gonna ally with them, and they’re also not going to put up much of a political or military threat to the crown.” jeff: but see, one of the problems is that you know, rhaegar and elia, or at least rhaegar, didn’t necessarily he had something else going on. he had the whole prophecy thing that jim was talking about earlier   that he felt that maybe elia wasn’t enough, especially after she was only able to bear two children, and then a number of stillbirths afterwards, and the doctors, or the maesters rather, had told her that you know, she couldn’t bear any more living children. and so rhaegar thought “well, i guess there must be another” type of thing, and that takes us to one of the most famous stories of the entirety of a song of ice and fire, and that’s the knight of the laughing tree. nina: yeah, absolutely. now, to clarify, the timeline is a little weird here. we’re pretty sure aegon wasn’t born until after the tourney of harrenhal   think it’s just rhaenys at this point   but, eh, it’s a little unclear. but even so, rhaegar still clearly has on his mind, he has this probable vision of this dragon with three heads, he needs he needs more children, and then there’s this whole   well, mystery knights are not uncommon to see at great tourneys, but they’re usually heroes who are disguised to do something great. so you have the story of, like, prince aemon the dragonknight, who disguises himself as the knight of tears to win the crown for his sister rather than for the king’s mistress, and you have barristan who unveils a mystery knight and it turns out to be this great outlaw simon toyne. so, they’re kind of expecting a mystery knight to show up at harrenhal. what’s weird about this one is this mystery knight is short, not well armed, wearing a northern device, which is very strange, because the north is not a place where jousting is very emphasized, takes on only three knights and then disappears. all of that is very weird behavior for a mystery knight, and what’s crazy, or what’s important to the story, is that aerys sends rhaegar out to go find   because of course, aerys is crazy, he immediately thinks this is ser jaime lannister, dismissed to protect queen rhaella and prince viserys, come back to mock him. so he sends rhaegar out to find him. rhaegar only comes back with the shield and says “well, never found him.” more probable? he did find him, turned out to be lyanna, who is someone from the north, who is an extraordinarily good rider, which is critically important for being a good jouster, who challenged the three knights whose squires bullied howland reed, and who has every reason to disappear because   well, she’s done, what’s she gonna do, enter the lists? and for rhaegar, i think it’s this immediate clicking of, lyanna is someone who is totally different than elia. elia is good and gentle, demure, a very good queen in the making. lyanna is wild and fearless and willing to stand up for the innocent in the person of howland, and will do something crazy and independent, like dress up as a knight and do something dangerous like joust, just to defend his honor. so, for rhaegar, i think he immediately thought “aha! here is someone that i can find to bear another head of the dragon. this will be perfect. she will be the ice in this ‘song of ice and fire’.” jim: and not to mention that, this whole knight of the laughing tree , this is a perfect romantic story. i mean, if you think about it, it’s a woman who is   you know, women are not supposed to joust   she disguises herself, she puts on a helm, and she takes the lance to fight and to avenge someone who has been grievously wronged, and then she disappears into the night, not looking for glory, only looking for doing what’s right. and then   so, i mean, rhaegar just loves this. it’s perfect. and so part of me is also thinking, eddard has a very famous quote to robert where he said “you only saw the surface, you didn’t know the true steel underneath.” and he’s hinting that robert was superficially attracted to lyanna’s amazing beauty and not to the actual person that she was. and i’m thinking that this is actually an interesting parallel to rhaegar, who could have been completely attracted to this romantic aspect of the knight of the laughing tree, but didn’t really understand the the complex and complicated person that lyanna was underneath. so maybe that’s just one of   a strange way that these two men, one of whom absolutely despised the other, and through physical ways they could not be more different. i mean, rhaegar is essentially the prince charming of story books: he’s tall, handsome, very beautiful   nina: a good knight and gallant and all that. jim: very well educated, musical, all sorts of things, whereas robert is this manly fantasy hero. he is the king on the front lines, essentially a one man shock troop who could just destroy everything. he’s the first man on the walls in the battle of gulltown, which is the first battle he’s ever been in, and he goes and duels in the trident, and all of this stuff   so he’s another fantasy archetype. so these two conflicting archetypes might actually have more in common than you think. hamish: i thought i thought it was quite funny. so basically rhaegar is prince charming and robert is gaston. nina, jim: [laughs] jeff: [laughing] hey, that’s pretty good, man! i think that you know, when they say   ned thinks that robert is muscled like a maiden’s fantasy type of thing, and you know, i think robert would be aghast if someone drew a connection between him and rhaegar, especially after he becomes the king. but i think it’s a really interesting idea that george plays with in the narrative. but i mean, it kind of all comes back to   to kind of draw it back to the tourney of harrenhal: why in the world, even if rhaegar finds this romance in lyanna stark, why in the world does he crown lyanna in front of the entirety of the realm? hamish: i think it’s i think there’s probably a multitude of reasons for that. i think the sole one is, you see, like, you see the romanticism in lyanna when she cries. she was a very free spirited   she was a fighter and a very brazen woman by regular noble standards, but then you get this other side of her   this sweet, romantic side that cries when rhaegar sings and plays his music. maybe rhaegar did it   rhaegar finds her and says, “i need you for to bear the third head of the dragon to help me save the world, and i’m willing to blow up burn down the rules of nobility. ignore my wife, ignore everyone i’m going to annoy essentially and incite anger from, despite the fact that there are already minor tensions in the realm, and i’m going to say you are the queen of love and beauty. will you help me save the world?” jeff: i mean, my reaction has always been like, “holy shit, dude.” you just crowned the daughter of not just a random lord in the realm   let’s say he crowned the daughter of lord beesbury. problematic enough, but not nearly as bad as crowning the daughter of the lord paramount of the north. like, that is just   nina: no! jeff: just, eons above, a total, just a no go in medieval   hamish: suicidal. jeff: it is suicidal, but it kind of goes back to, when we were talking in the original about our one sentence things, and i said “he was kind of an idealistic idiot”, i think he was just kind of oblivious. he was just like   and i’m gonna use the voice i used when we were practicing this, the ‘rhaegar surfer voice’, which is [rhaegar voice] “what’s going on, bros? i mean like, i’m the crown prince, of course i can crown lyanna stark. why is everybody getting upset with me? i don’t understand. what’s going on?” nina: [laughs] yeah, always makes me laugh. kind of the same thing for me though too, it’s it is so much wrong, wrong, wrong with that choice. it’s not just a conflict of “guy loves girl. other guy loves the same girl girl. guys get jealous over the girl.” ok, that’s that’s a petty rom com, whatever. this is these are your future lords bannermen, these are the people that are going to be supporting you, and in a highly feudal system like westeros, you cannot afford to disrespect them like this, and this is is all kinds of disrespectful toward lyanna. this is this is “i am just going to completely single you out, as though i were claiming you as my mistress, in front of your brother, in front of your betrothed.” that is a sully on her honor, everyone recognizes it, and everyone would have been shocked. jeff: i wonder if lyanna recognized it, actually, or if she was just kind of so caught up in the moment that she just went along with it. nina: i think she well, she’s 14 and she’s an idiot, so she probably was just caught up in the romantic fantasy of “oh my gosh, this really handsome guy is giving me the honor” at what is supposed to be the greatest tourney ever and she’s the center of attention, i mean, that’s flattering   as a girl [laughs], that’s flattering to your ego. jim: and it’s funny because he also does it in front of his wife. nina: yes! jim: oh yeah, that’s great, it’s like, is there a possible way i could make even more people angry? maybe i should just go and knock over a statue of the drowned god while i’m at it. nina: [laughs] jim: anger the greyjoys. jeff: does the drowned god have   hamish: fuck the greyjoys. jeff: yeah, fuck the greyjoys. nina: is there like a sacred fire of r’hllor i can stamp out too? jeff: [laughs] nina: but no, jim brings up a really good point in that, this is so   would have been so weird to see from rhaegar of all people because this is a complete abandonment of chivalry. this is throwing all rules of chivalry out the window, and there are very strict rules that   rhaegar is someone who is considered the epitome of knightlihood would have known. you compare what he does to barristan who, rhaegar actually beat to win the crown. barristan is thinking about the tourney years later and he says “barristan selmy would have made a different choice. not the queen, who was not present. nor elia of dorne, though she was good and gentle; had she been chosen, much war and woe might have been avoided.” so, his thoughts first go to, “who do i crown?” ok, first go to the queen, as the highest ranking woman of westeros. she’s not there, you can’t crown her. next think of elia of dorne, who is the  as princess of dragonstone, the second highest ranking woman in the realm. now, barristan can get away with   he would have crowned ashara dayne, that’s ok, he’s a kingsguard, and as a kingsguard he’s ostensibly not supposed to have any romantic notions, so it would have been “oh, i’m simply giving a testament to your beauty and your nobility.” that’s all cool. but the thing about the queen of love and beauty’s crown is, it’s pretty much exclusively a romantic item. it is something that you give when you have a romantic interest in the woman you’re giving it to. you have jorah, who gives it to his eventual wife, lynesse hightower. you have bonifer hasty, who gives it to princess rhaella when he was infatuated with her, and the only other time we have is prince aemon. now, whatever relationship he had with queen naerys, it was enough to cast a lot of doubts on daeron’s legitimacy, so there was clearly a romantic connection there. for rhaegar to give this   to ignore his wife, who deserves it as both his wife and as the highest ranking woman at the tourney   that is a slap in the face to both of them. hamish: not even a slap in the face to just them. as jeff said, that annoys and enrages everyone. it enrages the stormlands, dorne, the north   just completely undermines the concept of the theory of southron ambitions. rhaegar has made a grand gesture that has essentially screwed up everything, and he’s done it in front of the worst possible people. he’s done it in front of brandon stark, who’s known for having wolfsblood, and he’s done it to robert baratheon, whose essential nickname in modern times would be “the hammer” for basically charging into battles and taking on 10 men at once, first on the walls at gulltown, the guy who destroys rhaegar in battle   a guy with no real   no real self control on anything. and he   not even this, when you think about it, when you think about rickard, who’s lyanna’s father, he has a stake in this as well. he’s thinking “oh god, they’re gonna think she’s his mistress”, and as horrible as it is, women were a commodity back then, and they were prized if they were maidens. you seen this especially in the context of lysa tully; when she’s discovered to have   like, be pregnant with littlefinger’s child and to have had a relationship with littlefinger, she’s viewed by the arryns as soiled, because she’s not as pure as a maiden should be. rickard has to try to avert that, because rhaegar is essentially saying   rhaegar has announced to the world his intentions for lyanna. so, it does scream something about rhaegar’s entire priorities. if this was to be his   the host of the third head of the dragon, because there’s a very   that remains a very real possibility that’s what he saw women as, people to bear the children of prophecy, it really says something about his mental state, like “this vague prophecy that my sons and my children will be a part of is above everything else, it’s above petty feudal conflicts. i’m living in the future, i’m not living in the present where i’ve enraged half the country by acting like a silver haired douchebag.” jeff: [laughs] jim: and that’s true, and the thing is, his fixation on the supernatural prophecy pretty much almost dooms his entire house. it is the thing, it is the helen of troy moment for westeros, it is what kicks off a war. his decision at this point pretty much fans the flames of war, and it makes you wonder exactly what type of king might he have been. it’s strongly hinted that rhaegar was the shadow patron of the tourney of harrenhal. the quote from the world of ice and fire is “if this if this tale be believed, ’twas prince rhaegar who urged lord walter to hold the tourney, using his lordship’s brother ser oswell as a gobetween. rhaegar provided whent with gold sufficient for splendid prizes in order to bring as many lords and knights to harrenhal as possible. the prince, it is said, had no interest in the tourney as a tourney; his intent was to gather the great lords of the realm together in what amounted to an informal great council, in order to discuss ways and means of dealing with the madness of his father, king aerys ii, possibly by means of a regency or a forced abdication.” so if he actually brought this tourney together, and then just got caught up in this prophecy and completely destroyed it, think about what other political moves he would have to make as a king that would be completely sidelined by prophecy. i mentioned this in my rickard stark essay, the westeros don’t really view prophecy as something that is reliable, and if he were to base maybe the decision to go to war with a foreign power, or economic and taxation policy on a prophecy, the man is going to be seen as completely nuts. he’s going to be seen as the mad king part ii, just a different sort of madness. and as nina mentioned earlier, this is not just some gossipy nobles, these are your lords bannermen. lord stark is the warden of the north, house baratheon is the closest house to king’s landing. so if the stormlands are angry, they’re the ones that could cause problems for king’s landing first. both robert baratheon and one of rickard stark’s sons are very close to their guardians and ward, jon arryn, who is the warden of the east. that’s two wardens. that’s half of the armies of westeros, in theory, that are completely   that have reason to be against you for this. and if you went to a tourney for the sole point of winning them over   nina: great job, dude. jim: you can’t really get much worse than that. jeff: [in rhaegar voice] “what’s the problem, bros? the prophecy said that i was gonna, you know, ‘the dragon must have three heads’, that’s   that’s what i gotta do, bros.” jim: the crownlands are   are by far the weakest of the regions. the crownlands can’t really raise that many, especially since house velaryon has kind of dwindled in economic and military power, so i mean, he has to have a good relationship with his bannermen. he has to. because he depends on their levies for matters of war, and you can’t   just as maegor the cruel found out, he had the biggest dragon on the block, and he was a great warrior himself, but when king jaehaerys was going to, had his rival armies, maegor retreated to king’s landing and was like “alright, let’s bring the army … where is everyone?” he found himself very alone, and then he ended up dying, either by the throne, or by committing suicide, or my personal favorite, which is one of the artisans that he had killed during   when he finished the red keep had actually survived and came back to kill him through one of the secret passages he knew about, or possibly one of   his son, intent on vengeance, which i mean i like that, kind of a cool story, but who knows. jeff: kind of a blood and cheese, callback to “the princess and the queen”. nina: little bit. but what you bring up with maegor the cruel also makes me think of, rhaegar’s decision is completely idiotic in another way, in that, what does rhaegar think is going to happen with him and lyanna? he and lyanna abscond not very long after the tourney is over, and basically disappear off the face of the earth. what does rhaegar think is going to happen? because if he marries her, well only two targaryens ever had multiple wives: aegon the conqueror and maegor the cruel. both of them had dragons, both of them had huge dragons, and that could back up pretty much anything they said. aegon’s marriage was considered unusual   even for his time, it wasn’t considered usual to take two wives, that was even considered a little unusual. and if you gonna take maegor the cruel as your example for anything, you’re already   you’ve already lost your argument. so the fact that rhaegar doesn’t have any dragons, and really doesn’t have a way to back up a marriage with lyanna, who’s not even a faith follower, is really gonna cause problems. we we’ve seen with king tommen, the more the king starts to lose the support of the faith, that can be really damaging to his power as king, because you are starting lose all of the faith believing public, and they can be very easily swayed by the right high septon. even if rhaegar doesn’t marry lyanna, alright what, so you bring lyanna back to king’s landing with you as basically your mistress? well now you’ve got a blackfyre situation going, because you’ve got elia, who is the mother of the legitimate heir aegon, and then you’ve got lyanna, who is the mother of another child by you. all it takes is a little bit of ambition on that child’s part, and all of the sudden they could have the potential backing of the north and whatever other allies the north had at that point   certainly the tullys, the baratheons and arryns and well   and that could tear the realm apart, like it did with the blackfyres. rhaegar’s completely ignoring this possibility by running away with lyanna, simply because he’s so entrenched in prophecy. jeff: well not just that, there’s like something really, um, off about where lyanna stark disappears. in the world of ice and fire we find out where lyanna stark either absconds with rhaegar or disappears, and it’s on   it’s by harrenhal, with the implication that it’s on the way to the marriage between brandon stark and catelyn tully, essentially. like, he chooses the worst possible place to do it at, he chooses it at another   in the location of another lord paramount. again, there’s another major incident that occurs in the lands of someone that is very powerful, maybe even overpowerful bannermen of king aerys, essentially, and it’s to a major ceremonial event that’s going to join house stark and house tully together for the future. nina: and then not to mention, hides lyanna in dorne   his wife’s country. “oh, dornish, it’s totally cool if i keep my kept mistress here, right? you’re all good with   i’ve got your back, right? still totally got your back, right?” jeff: [in rhaegar voice] totally. hamish: although, basically the whole key concept of   maybe rhaegar didn’t care about the whole noble blood thing cause i don’t think nobility makes you a hero in any way, it doesn’t make your blood special, as we see in a number of things. being a bastard   a bastard can still be a hero. rhaegar maybe wanted to marry lyanna for lyanna’s own sake cause lyanna was the romantic, she may chosen to marry   have wanted the marriage because basically, what i mentioned before about the whole spoiling thing, and the fact that essentially she wouldn’t   she wouldn’t be a maiden anymore if she had a royal bastard or anything. so he may have married her so she wouldn’t have to go through life being treated as less than what she was. she would have a chance to have a good life after all this   the world has been saved and everything is all fixed and better. because despite saving the world, nobility still stands, and no one in this world wants anyone’s leftovers, even if they were the prince’s leftovers, horrible as that sounds. jim: and then you go even further in the   in robert’s rebellion, after   we know what happens, brandon stark is very offended, goes down to king’s landing, tells rhaegar to come out and die, and then aerys says “oh, that’s treason”, throws them in jail and then murders both of them without trial. and then what does rhaegar do, during this entire thing? absolutely nothing. and that’s very damaging to him. by not doing anything, by remaining completely silent, he has essentially said “you know what? that’s   that’s cool, i’m okay with that.” he’s   aerys violated every noble right that rickard stark enjoyed, and essentially that was   there was never going to be any coming back from that. murdering the lord paramount and his heir without trial in an obviously fixed trial by combat which mocks the faith? you cannot just say “yeah, that’s cool” or even say, “you know what, i’m going to stay out of this.” no, rhaegar, you caused this. you have to say something! jeff, nina: [laughs] jeff: well, you know, it’s kind of   i’m sure an argument people would make would be that, “well, rhaegar couldn’t know what was going to happen”, but you know, that’s not necessarily true. there’s an amount of time between when brandon stark went to king’s landing and when rickard stark showed up to account for his son, that rhaegar almost certainly found out about what was   the goings on at king’s landing. nina: and even more than that, even after   alright, even assuming rhaegar didn’t know what happened until after it happened, he was so far down in dorne that no message was getting through, we don’t hear of him saying anything afterward either, coming back and saying “hey dad, wasn’t super cool that you did that, i’m not on the side of that.” he doesn’t. he never says that. and that’s as much damaging. jeff: well, come on, you have to be a little fair to him. he says to jaime lannister, [rhaegar voice] “jaime lannister, changes will be made, bro.” nina: [laughs] jeff: that’d be a council. jim: yeah, but that’s too little too late. nina: yeah, too little too late. hamish: you sort of see this, how the perception changes of   you know how robert becomes the king that would be , he’s the king who leads from the front, he fights the way a king should fight according to borrell from the fingers, and he’s first on the wall at gulltown. robert looks and acts like a hero, he becomes the man that rhaegar should’ve been. he’s the one who’s gonna die if he doesn’t win. he’s the hero. and   but rhaegar, more and more, his absence makes him look like an absentee kidnapping rapist who doesn’t care. he’s got what he wants, and damn everyone else. the world will be saved even if it costs hundreds of thousands of lives. jeff: again, brings up the whole “what is one life against a million?” or i guess in this case, “what is a hundred thousand lives against one million lives?” i guess the equation kind of gets tossed out of whack. cause then it kind of gets, what’s the ultimate end of rhaegar targaryen, it’s robert’s rebellion. his actions at harrenhal and his actions thereafter   abducting lyanna, or failing to leave a note   nina: [laughs] jeff: okay, let’s just say, as an aside, lyanna left willingly, which i do   i do believe. why in the world did they not say, “hey brandon, sorry to leave, i’m going with rhaegar. i’m doing it willingly. we’re in love. hearts.” nina: “love you lots” jeff: “love you lots, lyanna.” jim: “p.s. thanks for teaching me how to joust so i could be the knight of the laughing tree.” jeff: [laughs] should have drawn, like, a weirwood tree as kind of a symbol at the very bottom. but that’s the thing, it’s just a total lack of communication on rhaegar’s part, and lyanna’s part as well, lyanna’s not blameless in all this. but ultimately, what occurs is robert’s rebellion, which is one of the most destructive actions in the realm since the blackfyre rebellions. and you know   more than that, rhaegar’s actions, from alienating the stormlands, the vale, the riverlands, the north, and dorne! even fucking dorne! nina: probably didn’t help that you hid your mistress there. just saying. jeff: it cost house targaryen the war. you know, dorne   go back to dorne. you know, george, in a   early on in a so spake martin, somebody asked him “well, what’s going on with dorne in robert’s rebellion?” and george r.r. martin says, i’m not even gonna try to do the voice again, “rhaegar had dornish troops with him at the trident, under the command of prince lewyn of the kingsguard. however ” and this is important   “the dornish did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of the anger at his treatment of elia and in part because of prince doran’s innate caution.” and you look at as well, what’s the other house that we haven’t really mentioned? it’s the reach. the tyrells had a really large army, but they put in the bare minimum effort in order to be considered targaryen loyalists. but you know, if things went badly, the tyrells can say like “hey, we just did the bare minimum, we weren’t really in favor of this guy, you know, honor dictated that we besiege storm’s end”. but how attacks made it over the walls of storm’s end? i don’t think a single one. 80,00 soldiers   nina: yeah, all they did was fling stones against the walls. “well, we tried …” jeff: “we tried!” and it call comes back to rhaegar. he insults the north, the stormlands, the vale, the riverlands, dorne, and you know, his father had made an enemy of probably the most powerful man in the kingdom besides the king himself, and that’s tywin lannister. so, it’s really only fitting that rhaegar’s end comes   and i think the world of ice and fire has it best, he emerges out of, what does it say, the marches, from the world of ice and fire? like he’s just been hanging out there, and he just kind of emerges, like oh   i can just imagine him coming out, like [rhaegar voice] “hey bros, what’s been going on since i’ve been gone? what’s happening?” nina: “sup?” jeff: “anything big? civil war? okay, well we’re gonna call a great council, jaime lannister, but then i’m gonna fight this big battle against robert baratheon.” and that’s pretty much the end of rhaegar, when he marches up to the trident and they have the great battle of the trident. it’s fairly evenly matched. rhaegar’s army has more numbers on his side but robert’s army is more veteran, they had fought in a number of battles coming up to that. and then rhaegar’s ultimate end, for all of his follies, is to have his fucking chest caved in with a hammer, with robert’s hammer. that’s the end of rhaegar targaryen, and i think it’s a fitting end for the amount of obliviousness and folly that kind of rolls into it. hamish: basically the guys who broke people’s hearts also gets his heart crushed. nina: awww. how very poetic. you have a singer’s soul, hamish. jeff: that actually makes me feel a little sympathetic to rhaegar, probably the first time i’ve ever felt sympathetic to rhaegar, but that’s   that’s a good point. nina: yeah, and i think, sort of, coming to a conclusion about rhaegar. for me, he’s just such   disappointment. there’s so much disappointment, because rhaegar should have been great. he’s clearly very intelligent. he clearly had martial ability   it’s not like he just walked up to robert and immediately died, it was a fight, robert was very gravely wounded afterward, it was a fight, he was a good knight, but, it’s this sort of targaryen thing where they get obsessed on these ideas, and for rhaegar, that obsession was with prophecy and fulfilling this prophecy. kind of like i said at the beginning, he, like jon, is someone who is very willing to gamble everything short term because they know, long term, history will prove them right. unfortunately, it doesn’t   it does matter, i guess, if there’s some sort of great cataclysmic event and rhaegar’s actions were important and they mattered. but in the short term, it costs him everything, and it costs other people everything, and that’s just sort of disappointing. rhaegar, you should have known better, and instead, he’s blinded. he’s completely blinded. he throws the dice, and he loses. hamish: the way i see it, like, i mean, i referred to him as “chris martin targaryen” at first, that was my opening sentence to describe him. i feel like i was completely wrong. he was the anti billy joel. rhaegar started the fire, and the fire burns. jeff: it’s been always burning since the world’s been turning. i think that rhaegar targaryen   i might feel sympathy, because of his ironic death now the way that hamish put it, but i still look at rhaegar as a disappointment. yeah, he probably would’ve been a better king than aerys ii, but you know, i think that every german leader since adolf hitler has been a better leader since adolf hitler. you can’t really   there’s only one way, and that’s up, from aerys targaryen. would rhaegar have been like jaehaerys, one of the best kings, best targaryen kings? no. i think he probably would’ve’ been one of the worst targaryen kings had he come into power. that reliance on prophecy, the subversion of reason, and the obliviousness of your   of his words and actions would have been a disaster for westeros, and it was a disaster for westeros. i think looking at the   the cost of the war of robert’s rebellion, all the mistakes that kind of compiled into one, it’s tens of thousands of dead people, to include tens of thousands of likely dead civilians and innocent people who had nothing to do with rhaegar targaryen, who probably couldn’t identify him by voice, by sight or any of those things, but they died all the same because of this one guy’s oblivious foolishness and ultimate reliance on a faulty and likely mutable prophecy. jim: absolutely. he’s a man that ultimately had a completely disregard for his own actions and the consequences of these actions. he just   it will be right because i do them and i am right sort of thing, and that’s completely dangerous in any person, but especially in a head of state, or the heir to a head of state. that is something that will lead to ruin, and i think i have a good quote to sum him up. and because we are   we have a war and politics site, i think a good quote to sum this up would be from the battle of mobile bay: “damn the torpedoes. full speed ahead.” jeff: very nice. so that’s our podcast today, it’s our first joint one, so obviously let us know how we can improve for the future. we appreciate any feedback. do you think rhaegar was the greatest thing to   did he walk on water? was he better than sliced bread? was he right? nina: was he bigger than jesus? nina: and this is nina, signing off, saying, “rhaegar, if you were alive, i would smack you.” jim: and this is jim, signing off, saying, “look at what your pride hath wrought, rhaegar.” jeff: that’s good. hamish: and this is hamish, signing off, saying, “that’s how the ruby plated chestplate crumbles.” jeff: alright guys, thanks for listening, take care. 9 comments filed under asoiaf podcast i love reading and listening to all of you. thanks so much for all the hard work, this is my favorite asoiaf site. thanks so much! it really means a lot to get positive messages like this from our readers and listeners. a blog slash podcast is nothing without the people who read, listen, comment, and give feedback, like yourself. i’ll say for myself that it’s a pleasure to write the essays i do when the response is so much great conversation about a series we all love. thanks for typing this up! i always prefer reading asoiaf analysis to listening to it, and there’s a lot of great stuff in here! really awesome analysis and opinions! will finish the entire thing later. but really struck me that i am not the only one struck by ser davos’s personality! his loyal and humble personality.is really admirable. one of the regrets of a very busy life is not having too much time to go into the awesome. and indepth analysis of got and asoiaf. merry christmas nfriel!! really love the work you guyz are doing. great stuff guys. reading all the way in south africa. please keep them coming. i am going to admit to bias against the crown prince since both the first book and the first season of the series. robert and his war hammer did all of us a favour! great topic and conversation guys! it’s refreshing to hear someone who doesn’t worship the ground rhaegar walks upon. p.s. nice farragut quote there, somethinglikealawyer. do u have a source for the grrm quote? “so spake martin, somebody asked him “well, what’s going on with dorne in robert’s rebellion?” and george r.r. martin says, i’m not even gonna try to do the voice again, “rhaegar had dornish troops with him at the trident, under the command of prince lewyn of the kingsguard. however ” and this is important   “the dornish did not support him as strongly as they might have, in part because of the anger at his treatment of elia and in part because of prince doran’s innate caution.” what i interview is it from? pingback: ensayo: no he venido a alabar a rhaegar targaryen (1ª parte) pingback: ensayo: no he venido a alabar a rhaegar targaryen (2ª y última parte) δdocument.getelementbyid( "ak_js_1" ).setattribute( "value", ( new date() ).gettime() );
what to watch supported by house of the dragon aemond knows those assassins got the wrong prince. he says he feels flattered. he had also better watch his back. by sean t. collins not even rhaenyra targaryen can believe what she’s seeing. this woman has flown through the sky on the back of a dragon. she has seen lords kneel at her feet, only to rise against her years later. she has lost a child in her fight for the iron throne and recoiled to learn that another was killed in her child’s name. but watching erryk and arryk cargyll (elliott and luke tittensor), two identical twin knights, locked in a battle to the death in her own bedroom, with the outcome to decide whether she lives or dies? you can see it on the face of the actor emma d’arcy: not even in rhaenyra’s wildest dreams did she see this one coming. this ability to shock   not in the gross out sense, although this is often the case as well, but rather in the sense of a sudden, severe surprise   is the greatest strength “house of the dragon” possesses. civil wars are often said to be battles of brother against brother; fantasy can make the metaphorical literal. what better way to illustrate the senseless brutality of warfare than by having two men who look and sound exactly alike, who love each other, who say they are one soul in two bodies, perish in a brutal murder suicide that achieves exactly nothing? the entire affair is a sordid one, something ser arryk never should have been asked by ser criston, his lord commander, to carry out. indeed, criston did so only as a maladaptive way of venting his sexual frustrations during a moment when his on again off again relationship with queen alicent was dialed to off again. by episode’s end they’re back together and having rough sex   an altogether healthier way of channeling these frustrations, if still an ill advised coupling overall. despite the clandestine nature of their relationship, alicent and criston are still faring better romantically than rhaenyra and daemon. when the black queen learns that the young prince jaehaerys was murdered and beheaded in his bed, she is outraged that anyone could think she had anything to do with it. she is even angrier when she finds out that she did have something to do with it, despite herself: it was daemon who, in a reckless attempt to make good on her request for vengeance against prince aemond, claimed another child’s life instead. you can’t trust someone like that, rhaenyra determines   accurately. she dismisses him as “pathetic”; he dismisses himself from her company.