SUPPLEMENT TO THE EVENING STAR.

THE SEPARATION DEBATE.

Ml SWAffSOirs UP2SEOSS.

The Appeal to the Country. Major 10^ *! ft* f « Hansard. He sWi . c- r% take from should have addreS'^TT Td° "ot think T' been for Rome7e m S s whi^T V' not and more partiSS- *i eh l lave been made > able eenr>rn™ 1 y those which the honor speech: S a S ad4f T ? c crlu^ n of his cdlv sta*^ i? i d T have heard repeat had V™ 1 feVe> !? at the f!Uestion of ab°«tion S* f !\ bf ore th.c country, that the people M (lecV lec «pon it, and that the result was to What did the honorable member for Timaru Soi- 3* >i(l> S et c that Bill llpon the st= W , f !t (l °n tIG ? taUlte Rook > orwe<lo not know what the people may say. I say that Sfl? qUef°\decided- J aPPeal to the Whole House-to those who were here last session, and to those who have read the de bates upon the subject- to say whether there is any truth in that statement. That is a broad Challenge and lam sure it will not be denied. Major ATKINSON.-I do deny it Mr SWANSON.-Then all f can say is, that those who would deny that, would deny anything. J Mr SPEAKER._No such expression as that should be used by an honorable gentleman When addressing the House.

Mr. SWANSON.—But, Sir, , . happened last year, when v 'nese. things place here. What was *' £L re, in J? m session ? "Sht about > all last

and of the whole House. As far a<? trip P™ peSSSHS if it was given to us. We cannot do it. We «c not in a position to go on. We do not want Provincilism on these terms at all. It struggle to carry on an existence. We do not pietend that we want to go back to that. But While we do not want to go back, we do not want to come to this House to carry on some of the business that is brought before us. The hnance of the colony,, the public works in JJich we have engaged—even supposing I think we have foolilhly engaged in some of t f^T • mall service—even supposing I think it a very foolish arrangement to have tins coastil service, but we have gone into it —are proper things for this House to consider. But I object to local matters. Parish Business in the Assembly. The only bill I got to-day was the Cromwell Racecourse Reserve Bill. In the name of goodness, what do I know about the Cromwell Racecourse ? Just look at most of the measures that are now on the Order Paper. We were told by one honorable gentle man, the member for Dunstan, that, in abolish ing the provinces these local matters would be no difficulty, our minds would rise to the occasion. I hope that honorable gentlemen who know a little more about the Cromwell Racecourse than Ido will rise to the occasion. Here are a few Bills we are asked to legislate on : the Stewart Island Grants Bill—l do not know how many of us know about that, but I know nothing ; the Canterbury Pastoral Leasing Bill—l do not think the gentlemen in Canterbury would be able to attend to that Bill ; the Thames Harbour Board Bill—it strikes me that the Provincial Council of Auckland could manage things of that kind. I think they would know a great deal more abont it than this House. Sir, I recollect that last session this Assembly passed an Act relating to the Auckland Harbour, ■which no one knew anything at at all about con veying a whole lot of property, and I am per fectly satisfied it will lead to a great deal of litigation. It was passed without the slightest discussion on the last day of the session, and I doubt whether a person read it other than my self. I might nor have read it, or have known of its existence, if the chairman of the Harbour Board had not asked me by telegraph to see that it was not slaughtered. That Bill came from the Upper House, and I think it was passed in this House on the last day of the session. That is a very wrong way of doing business. If that Bill had come before the Provincial Council of Auckland, it would have been dis cussed in all its bearings, and if there were any objections to it, it would have been petitioned against. What was done here. It was passed, and hardly a member read it. That is what is called "rising to the occasion." Then I find the Akaroa Railway and Lake Ellesmere Drainage Bill. As if the people in Canterbury could not drain Lake Ellesmere. I think it is a very wrong thing to submit a matter like that to me. I have read Coleridge, Southey, and Wordsworth, the Lake poets, and I would be rather disposed to take a romantic view of the question and resist any attempt to drain Lake Ellesmere ; at all events my prejudices would tend in that direction. However it may be that the lake in Canterbury may be a very dif ferent affair from the lake of that name in Eng land, and possibly the sooner it is drained the better. We know there are associations in names, and this matter ought to be left to the people concerned in it. I am sure that nine tenths of the members of this House do not know any thing at all about it; and if we deal with things we do not know anything about, we cannot tell how many jobs and how many blunders may be perpetrated in passing such Bills. I see here two or three Welling ton Bills, and then I come to the Gold Duties Act 1872 Amendment Bill. That is a per fectly legitimate matter for members of this House to deal with. It is one with regard to which they could really rise to the occasion, for it affects the whole of us, and especially the mining members. Then there are other local Bills, and I come to one which the House might consider properly, the Warehoused Goods Bill. The Timaru Harbour Bill could surely be better dealt with by the gentlemen from Canterbury, who profess to be able to rule the whole country. If their minds could not rise to the elevated height necessary to decide about one of their own harbours, it appears to me th,ey ought not come to me at all events for help, and there are a good many more in this House who know as little about it as I do. Here we have the Napier Mgnicipal Endowment Bill, the Napier Harbour Board Bill, the Napier liospital Bill, the Dunedin Municipal Bill, and so on. Now what on earth are we called upon to do here ? Are our minds going to rise, or rather are they going down to learn about these matters, and con ceive of them. There are many others but I need not read them. There are fifty four orders of the day, and forty of them are purely local. Two or three of the others I have very considerable doubt about, but they could be very much better dealt with by the Provincial Councils than by the House. Go a little further, and what have we got? The Ashburton, Alford Forest, and Mount Somers Railway Trust Bill, and the Southland Drainage Bill. Do not you think these are things that could be much better

ni, Liv e T ] 3e°plc residin S in l]lc localities than by this House ? I say it is a cumbrous arrangement that causes us to have anything to do with such things. But for dealing with matters connected with the administration of justice ; for matters connected with the tele graph ; for matters connected with the law of marriage, and the inheritance of property, and all general laws, I believe this House to be eminently suited. I believe, sir, that this Mouse would gain a very great deal by dividing the work-. Making Jaws is not at all like put ting up fences or making ditches. Here every one of us has been wrangling over a set of resolutions for two or three weeks, but if we were divided nothing of that sort could happen; and why ? Because the cause of quarrel would cease.

How Private Bills are Dealt With.

I will point out what is done with reference to private Bills introduced into this House. I had something to do with one or two of them. The first thing to be done is to deposit £s. I believe that the Bill I brought m was the first that had been deposited, "for the gentleman whose duty it was would hardly take it. Every step afterwards cost and besides I was told that I ought to employ an agent; that nothing could be clone without an agent. If I had not received instructions in the matter before I left Auckland, it co'-'l « I ' have been carried through w;"' , " ° but I got through i< • --nout anagent; active and pa^ ' -* ln sPlte of resistance, disgust ' -=«ye >no doubt to the very great t - . ox the agents, who lost their fees by it. , j Was reprimanded by the last speaker, some thing in these words, —That it was a dishonor able and discreditable thing for any member to pass a private Bill through this House if he had any shares or any interest in the matter. I did not rise at the time to tell him so, but I had not then, nor have I now, a farthing of interest in it. It was pretty broadly insinuated by the honorable gentleman that it was to save money for the Company. That Bill was the Thames Gas Bill. If there was anything wrong in the Bill; if there was any job being perpetrated, or any scandal being com mitted, you would never be able to find it out in a private room in this building; but in the Auckland Provincial Council the whole thing could be examined, and people could come from the Thames to resist it at very little ex pense. There are Bills passed in this Assembly every one of which I should be glad to see thrown out ; I mean Bills having a retrospec tive action. Ido not think such Bills should ever be brought in. One gave us a deal of trouble, and we had to pay a gentleman for our folly. He is petitioning this House again, and I believe the House will give him another chance to earn his bread —I hope they will —if the judges are only inclined to give him an opportunity to do so. There was another which was passed through by a regular fluke, which deprived a man named Joyce of his rights. He was on the West Coast and was engaged in an action in the Court, but was prevented from going on with it by that Act, and was consequently deprived of his property. I am told he is going to petition this House to get some address.

How Elections are Managed.

See the way we manage such matters asa disputed election—l mention all these things because we are said to be perfectly able to do all sorts of work—look at the dreadful expense people are put to for bringing witnesses and lawyers, look at the whole cumbrous machi nery. I say, why not go to a Court ? If there is any objection to any one sitting in this House why not have the whole thing settled in a Court of law, instead of having it determined by a majority, and possibly by a partial and interested majority. I now come to another matter. There was a sad fight at the begin ning of this session about the election of the Finance Committee. The difficulty was got over, I believe, by myself, for I suggested that Mr. Macfarlane's name should be put upon that Committee instead of Mr. Rees, who was objected to One would have thought that the Committee was intended to do something ; that there would have been reports put upon the table as to the finances, which' the honor able member for Auckland City East said were all wrong. I venture to say there is no such report upon the table, and I very much doubt whether the members of the Committee have

been called together at all after all the fuss made about it. I would ask the Government if they have called the Committee together.

Major ATKINSON.

-No.

Mr SWANSON.— Would you have heard of a Provincial Council doing such a thing as that ? What has become of the Committee at all ? It is all a pretence and a sham. I will now refer to a matter I have had four or five years' experience of, and if, that goes for any thing, I may be able to say something about it. I mean the Public Petitions Committee. With no small amount of trouble, I got the rules of that Committee altered last year, for which I am extremely grateful to the House, the rules being now in some kind of shape ; previously they were framed as though they were intended to prevent petitioners from coming here at all. But, I believe, it would be a charity if petitioners were kept away. The heart of any man on that Committee must be sore to see people coming from the very ends of the colony, and then, with their witnesses, hanging about these lobbies for months together at a frightful expense. Very seldom do they get anything for their trouble. If it is a complaint against Civil servants, they are so wrapped up with circumlocution, . and so sheltered behind the rules of the service, so protected by secret official enquiries made by members of their own orders that there is hardly any possibility of getting at the truth. As for getting justice in dealing with these cases, it is simply out of he question.

The Meurant Case.

I will mention one matter that must be patent to this House. It is a case which I consider to be a perfect scandal and disgrace to the co lony—l mean the Meurant case. For more than thirty years that case has been going on, and one of the things which made me pleased to be a member of this House was, that I was the means of making out the case ; and I now wish to publicly thank Mr Kelly for the assistance he rendered me. He had to dig up and ferret out a huge heap of papers that had not, per haps, seen the light for twenty years. The result was that the thing was laid bare to the light of day. The House could not agree as to the amount of money to be given, but, as it was true that the woman had been stripped of the land given to her as her dowry, it was agreed that a Minister should be appointed to settle the matter. But, through some carelessness, nothing was done. Next year the matter was referred to a Judge of the Land Court, who awarded a sum of money. Was it paid, or any part of it ? Not a bit of it. I asked the Government a question about it the other day, and the answer I got was, that the Government had not done any thing in the matter, and did not intend to do anything. There is redress for you. This is the place you are to come to for justice, fair play, fair dealing, and redress of grievances. These are the things that make this House stink in the nostrils of the country. I may be wrong perhaps, but I think there is a certain amount of Government influence at work occa sionally in the Petitions Committee, which I do not admire. I will give a sample.

The 'Hero' Case.

There was the Hero case last year. We went to a deal of trouble, and we heard the whole matter. The only thing that was wanted by

the petitioner was to have a Purvey of the vessel when she came into port. How Was that done? It had been fully inquired into by the chair man, Mr Dignan, Mr May, Mr Murray, and myself. Instead of deciding the matter at once, while the evidence was fresh in our minds, other business was considered. It was put: off, in spite of my protest". A gentleman came in with half-a-dozen other members of committee, who knew nothing about the mat ter. They gave their votes on the Hero case without having heard a syllable of the evi dence, the case was decided at once, and they disappeared downstairs. A case came up yesterday, and a gentleman \vho came there was at the same time agent and witness for the Government, and answered just as he liked. He cross-questioned the witnesses in such a way, that we had to put an end to it, and give him his choice whether he would be the witness for ; the Government, or agent for the Govern- ; ment. At first he said he would ; be agent, but when he discovered that the j evidence he had given would be struck out, he j said he would consult the Government, and he j ultimately elected to remain a witness. Are people to come here with petitions from West port, Stewart Island, and the North Cape, to ! fight against j^ odds? Would they not , -»c a better chance of obtaining justice in the Provinces in which their grievances arose? There is another case, arising from the fact that the interpreters are government officers, who are appointed and not authorised by license. One would think that if a person of good character wishes to act as interpreter between Maoris and Europeans, and if he passes the necessary examination, he ought to ' be able to get a certificate enabling him to , practise. But it appears that if these people j do not obey orders from the Government they , cannot get a license. This man who petitioned j was dismissed for something which it was ! alleged he had done. We naturally asked if j he had been warned, and if he had been in formed of thee harges against him. Nothing of the sort. It was done entirely in the dark, and without any accusation he was deprived of the means of supporting himself and his family. At this moment he has no idea of the charges against him. That is the sort of thing that goes on here. Now, I must say this House is very kind to some people, and very uncere monious to others. One night the honorable member for the Thames (Mr Rowe) happened to be away (I don't know where he was) when an important provision affecting mining interests came on, and the House suspended proceedings in order to give him an opportu nity of delivering his speech.. That was ex tremely kind ; but I recollect that another , mining representative had an important; measure on the paper. He happened to be away playing billiards when it should have come on, and the House showed him no great kindness, but passed on to the next order. This led to any amount of trouble, and the Govern ment had to discover or invent some ingenious process by which the honorable member who was a supporter, might make his speech and get it into Hansard. I do not see any very great consistency in that sort of conduct. I think that no more courtesy should be shown to one member than to another.

The Question of Finance

I will now draw the attention of the House to the question of finance. In the Auckland Provincial Council every item of the estimates is fought out, and they are fought out for this reason: that every member of the Council is a perfect judge of the sums asked for, and is well ac quainted with the capabilities of the officers for whom salaries are voted. I doubt whether anybody in this House knows—in fact, whether the Government themselves know —what the sums on the Estimates arc voted for, or where the money is to go. lam satisfied that the Government itself is largely in the hands of the heads of the departments, and that those heads of departments are also in the hands of the officers under them. They are the only people who really know where the money goes. I have seen the honorable member for Wairau (Mr Seymour), when Chairman of Committees, flourish the Estimates over his head, when they had all been passed, and not one penny had been struck off. Can anybody conceive such a thing being done in a Provincial Council ? And then as to the accounts them selves ; I believe there are few members in this House capable of going into them. I have heard my honorable friends the members for Akaroa and Manawatu go into the accounts of the country with great satisfaction ; (one feels safe in following them) but it is not given to many men the ability to be able to go into accounts such as ours. The first and second year that I was in this House, when the ac counts were not so extensive as they are now, I tried to master their details, but I had to give them up. I really do think that the finances of the country should be placed before the people in an intelligible shape, so that common minds may understand them. I must say that the Secretary for Crown Lands, when Treasurer last year, did put them in a more intelligible shape than for merly ; but even then I gave up the task as hopeless. Now, we are told that we are to rise to the occasion. I tell you that you will have to rise to a very considerable height. I have seen I do not know how many Bills passed through Committee as fast as the Chair man could read the side-notes, with only nine members in the House, and with only one indi vidual in the'public gallery. The very first year I was here I am sure I was not impressed with the extraordinary legislative ability of the House, or with the attention it gave to its measures. I thought it a very great disgrace and a very great scandal.

The Parliamentary Sprees.

We are told that we are to rise to ■. a great height in legislation; but I have seen the proceedings of this House stopped to enable honourable members 'to go to a spree. It is, perhaps, only natural that some people who exercise their heads a great deal, should like occasionally to exercise their heels; but I think the constituencies did not send us here for any such purpose. It has been done frequently before, and once or twice this session. lam reminded that I ought riot to complain because on one of those occasions ;Igot a matter through myself on account of the adjournment. It was arranged that the House should not sit later than six o'clock. I had a notice on the Paper, which had been wandering up and down for five or six weeks, with no hope of getting it on that session, and I was determined that the House should not adjourn until something was done with it. It was then agreed that the motion should be allowed to come on and be carried, pro vided that, I did not. say a word about it. And that is now law. I ought not, perhaps, to complain about the ball, for I got that .thing done on that occasion, and had there been no ball I certainly should have failed. I think it would be better, if. honorable members would stay here and attend to their work, instead of adjourning the House to go to balls, when there is so much business to be done. We have heard a great deal about the Provincial Councils ; every epithet has been applied to them. Have you ever heard of any Provincial Council sending home for plate for Bellamy's ? I do not know what other provinces have done; but they have not risen to the dignity of doing that in the province of Auckland at any rate. When I refer to Provincialism, I wish it to be distinctly understood that I confine myself to the Auckland province. Has anyone ever heard of the Auckland Provincial Council sending home for knives, forks, and spoons, for large quantities of crockery and crystal, branded with the name of the province, and

naid for at the public expense? Anrf vet this Mouse, which hns risen to an enormous dignity., is not above doing that. Honorable members of this Assembly did not only do that, but they sent home TOi freir wines, of the best kind. They can have as much liquor as mC^' ' and can distribute it among their neighbonrs at the end of the session. Of course, for payment, and I can safely recommend it as excellent tipple. Has any province ever done any thing like that, I want to know ? Then it seems there was a nice job to be given to some' one; it was desired that there should be a housekeeper connected with this establishment. No good reason was given for such an appoint ment, and they hit upon a happy excuse at last. They said it was to give at one to the servants ; that was the sole reasou given for making the appointment of housekeeper. I thtnk if some thing had been done to give a tone to honor able" members it would have been better. 1 have here a circular, sent to me, which 1 very much dislike, for I am in the habit of paying for my sherry and everything else that I get. Let me read this document:—

"Wellington, Bth August, 1876.

"The amount of upwards of £700 being outstanding at 'Bellamy's,' members are re quested to pay the sums due from them at once, and for the future to pay their accounts regularly once a week. The books are made up every Monday morning, and are to be had on appli cation at the bar at ' Bellamy's.'

" W. D. H. Baillie "R. G. Wood."

I could put these gentlemen up to a plan of how to get the money instead of sending out a document of this kind. What I object to is that it should be sent to me or other honorable members in the same position ; it ought to be sent to those who owe the money. T can clearly understand that there are men who have the right of going into " Bellamy's," and who have run up a score, trusting to this House to vote a sum to pay off their debts. Let the I louse Committee do as is done on the Stock Exchange—put up a big black board, and chalk on it every man's name who does not pay, and the amount he owes. I cannot understand a set of men sent here not paying for the food they eat and the wine they drink. I say it is a disgrace and a scandal to have such a circular sent round to us. Has any member of a Provincial Council ever had such a cir cular sent to him? I should be glad to know whether it was the Provincialists or Centralists who ran up this bill of /700, so that the people who go in so much for the unity of the colony, should see how much their representatives owe at Bellamy's. No doubt very free use is made of Bellamy's: there is no mistake at all about that. 7 have seen such results from the existence of Bellamy's in the House as I am sure have never been seen in any Council. I have seen the native members, whom we are told to look upon as barbarians and savages—l have seen them offer in this House to carry a member home and promise to put him to bed and not to hurt him, so that the proceedings might be carried on. That was during my first session. I think this House is much improved in that respect. However I cannot say what may happen, as we have not yet seen the end of the session, but I believe the House is a vast deal better in that respect than it was before. I have seen this House cleared on a subsequent day—l am not sure whether it was not on the following day—so that no one should hear what took place—so that the dirty linen might not be washed in public, while the offending member was being reprimanded. I have seen a member taken out of this House by the Sergeant-at-Arms and the messengers, I have never seen anything like that occur in the Provincial Council of Auckland. I have heard speeches about cudgels, cow-hides, 1 bowie-knives, and revolvers in this House. . All records of the scene that took place was i struck out of Hansard for fear of injuring the feelings of a lady. Was ever such a "thing seen in the Provincial Councils ? And yet we are told that the members of Provincial Councils are unfit to legislate and deal with the affairs of their own province. I cannot agree with such an opinion. I consider they are far superior in the knowledge of the local wants of the places they represent, and of the country generally, than most members of this House. Men who have seats in this House could not find seats in the Provincial Councils -and why were they elected ? Because there are more men who can afford time to attend the Provincial Councils than can afford time to come here. If it had not been for the distance we had to come to attend this Assembly, far better men than myself would have been elected. There are scores of men in Auckland superior to me in education, ability, and

manners,

Hon. Members.—No, no.

Mr SWANSON.—Honorable members may say "No ; " I know that it is intended as a compliment, but I am alive to my own defects. Those men have not the time to come- such a distance to this House. The result will be that this House will become one great Road Board and nothing else. The Ministers do not care a farthing how they get votes, pro vided they get them. They will get the votes of such men as the honorable member for the Thames (Mr Rowe). That honorable gentle man stated that the attacks made by the Pro vincial Governments upon the General Govern ment will be nothing to the attacks that will be made by the out-districts—that the attacks of the counties will be far greater and far harder upon the Government than the attacks of the provinces. And yet, while condemning their public works scheme and their finance, he says to the Oovernment, " Never mind, I'll vote for you," Why should Ministers care? They say this : " From whatever point of view you look at it, just you vote straight, and you can reason how you like afterwards."

How Members are Made Drunk !

I will tell you what I heard in the lobby from a distinguished leader of a party that is going in strongly for a united colony; I heard him say to a whip on the other side, " If you make any of my men drunk I will keep the talk up for a fortnight." Was ever any such thing heard of in the Provincial Council of Auckland ? I never saw in that Council a couple of men told off to watch an honorable member lest he should get on the '' spree " and be out of the way when the division took place. What took place in this House ? Have we not heard how people got up on the roof of this building and passed bottles of grog down the chimney to another honorable member who was umder lock and key in a Committee room to make him drunk ? And yet we hear talk of what a superior legislature we are. I say such pro ceedings are a disgrace to any legislative body. We are told that these things slaould be care fully kept out of sight. lam provoked when I hear the provinces insulted. These things are not brought out willingly by me, and would not have been referred to had it not been for the speech we have just heard. An honorable gentleman, the member for Timaru, to prove the reckless extravagancies of the provinces re ferred to the expenditure of a loan of ;£500,000 I to make a railway in Auckland, which had not been finished. He might have found out, before he branded the province with such folly, the objects for which the money had been borrowed, and whether or not they were quite legitimate objects. The money was raised under "The Auckland Loan Act, 1863," and it was to be devoted in this way : Redemption of provincial debentures due Ist May, 1865, £ 45,000 ; public buildings, .£70,000. Of what did these public buildings consist ? There was a Lunatic Asylum, a Su preme Court, a Post Office, and a Custom House. These were as fine buildings as could be found in any country j but the General

Government put pressure on us to build them They very wisely took possession of them when finished, and occupy them now, and yet we are told that it is the greatest crime in the world that Auckland should borrow money to build them. They blame the province for doing it. item in the schedule to the Act is Immigration arid ?vu"^ ase of. Land,/ 2 00 000. I will put it to the House M t he inraugr-ants brought into that province were not qmJ: ab good as those brought into the country by the General Government. They were brought out at a cheaper rate than the General Government have ever been able to introduce immigrants. We got a vast deal more immigrants for the money expended, and a great deal better class of immigrants. I apprehend that the purchase of lands from the natives was a very good thing. Then there is the item Auckland Har bour Trust, ,£60,000. We are told that the construction of harbours is a great colonial work. If so, £130,000 of the Auckland money has been spent in that direction. The colony is surely getting the benefit of that ex penditure, and I would like to know whether it has been misspent. There was—City of : Auckland, £50,000 ; but it only got £30,000, the remainder being swallowed up in interest or something else. Then there was £75,000 for public works. There was not a single far thing put down far a railway, and do not let it be supposed that I indorsed the proposal to construct a railway. I did nothing of the kind, because I thought it wrong at the time, and I opposed it because I thought it wrong to divert into another channel public money voted for a specific purpose, and because I thought it was neither fair to the lender nor to the borrower. However, the proposal was carried by a ma jority of one.

Reply to "Billy" Rowe.

But my honourable friend the member for the Thames (Mr Rowe), who de nounced the province so vehemently, forgot all about that. He was one of those who said there never would be peace or prosperity until we got that railway, and used all his influence and his eloquence to divert the money for that purpose. He was one of the Commissioners. And these are the men who abuse the provinces, and would like to see them trodden in the mire. Why, sir, during the last session of the Provincial Council the honorable gentleman and some other legal managers from the Thames begged and solicited the other members of that body to assist in getting the balance of £50,000. They knew very well that they stood very little chance of getting the money either from the province or from the General Government; but even knowing what I know now, I should have voted the money ; and I may go so far as to say that it was mainly through Mr. Carpenter and myself that it was obtained. I thought it was right to ascertain whether gold could be got at a great depth, and I was not one to stand in the way although it was in the interest of a private company. Let me explain to the House what the circumstances were. They were these : A very considerable sum, had already been paid to the company, and there was £3,000 or £4,000 in the Provincial Treasury of the If that sum had not been paid over by the province, it might have made roads and bridges (of which there was great want) with the money; the company would have had the ,£15,000 already paid without being liable to repay ; the province would have had over ,£30,000, balance of the loan, in hand ; and the country districts would have had the money for roads and bridges. But, in the interests of the Thames, the province took the whole load on its back ; and what return did it get? Why, those whom it assisted are the first to turn round and bite the hand that helped them. I think the condemnation comes very badly from that quarter. The province took up the debt when it could not have been compelled to do so. and I think it was not too much to expect a little gratitude from those who were benefitted by it. The honorable mem ber (Mr. Rowe) laughs. It is very easy to laugh when you have had the last farthing, but I warn Ministers that he will laugh at them in the same way when he has pumped them dry. I could easily have prevented the money being voted, and had I the least conception that I should have been laughed at for stretching a point and getting the money, I need not say what would have happened, but they might not have got it.

Log Rolling and Jobbery.

Now we come to the charge of log rolling and jobbery; and no doubt there have been some questionable transactions per petrated in the name of the Provincial Go vernment, but the same remark will apply with equal force to the General Government or any other Government. I believe there never was even a Road Board yet that had money to spend and work to do that was not open to the charge of jobbery ; and it is just the same with Municipal Corporations, Harbour Boards, or other public bodies. There are always

•op"!'.: who try to get contracts and good. uillets either for themselves or for their rela tions. It is human nature. And when we are told that the people are to be brought face to face with this Assembly, where there is to be nothing of this kind, we know that it is perfectly absurd. There is nothing like being close at hand and plenty of daylight. It is always difficult to get Governments to do what you want, particularly if it be money. Let anybody from Invercargill at one end of the colony, or Auckland at the other, come and see how things are done here. We are told that if you have any grievances, it is very con venient to come here—that it would not be half so convenient to go to Auckland, Dunedin, Christchurch, or any other part of the colony, if you have to represent your grievances. That is all very true if you happen to live here. But let me tell you this : that if you had to go to anyone of those places there would not be an organized Civil Service to resist you. The tree is known by its fruits. Here we have a civil Service banded together and intrenched behind a lot of laws framed by themselves and governed by rulers of their own ; as a matter of fact, they rule the Government. That influence is not to begot rid of at once, even if we tried it. I venture to say that, close as is the end of this debate, if the Civil-Service desired it they could shape the views of the Government now. We all know what that means. Some of those very gentlemen are in the Government, They are Civil servants themselves. But nothing of that kind is to be found in the provinces. If it is to be found in any of them, it certainly is not to be found in the province I come from ; and, if it were, we would very speedily get rid of it. I think I have already said that this House is every year getting more and more like a Road Board. The first year I came here I Saw a little of it, but I have since seen a great deal more. Look at the Order Paper. There we see questions and motions relating to light houses, harbours, subsidies for tug-steamers and mail steamers, and to roads and bridges, to say nothing of railways. We have even come to clearing the country of vermin, and I really do hope the members of this great1 Assembly will rise to the occasion and elevate themselves to a standard which shall be equal to dealing with the rabbit nuisance. It struck me, when I first heard of this matter, that eighty-eight ferrets would do the work better than this House can do it. As a law-making machine I consider this House a failure, and I will give an instance of what I mean. In Auckland people used to complain that their . bread was not of the proper weight; in. fact, they were being cheated by the bakers. Well, a 33111 was introduced into the Provincial Council, and it happened that we had amongst us a practical baker, named George, who was an honest man, and knew his business. He

said it was the light weight of bread rather1 than adulteration that required to be dealt with, and made it an offence on the part of any person to expose light-weight bread for sak. The two-pound loaf must weigh two pounds, and the four-pound loaf must weigh four pounds- Fresh or stale the weight mttst he there. But what did this House do ? Without enquiring how the Auck- f land Act worked—Srid I may say that under inspector Riley it worked' exceedingly well— it was repealed by this House, and a general Act passed which provided for preventing adulteration of every sort, and for detecting the presence of anything deleterious that could be mixed either with flour or wheat. It ap plied to everything except what was most wanted, light-weight bread. It provided penalties for not weighing, but in another clause said that the baker should weigh the bread " when requested so to do." In actual practice the Act is a farce. Here is a. case m pomt —there is a clause which says that house hold bread should be printed with the letter "H," and fancy bread with the letter "F. Let anyone go round Wellington looking for those letters on the loaves, and lie will fail to find them. The fact is the Act is a charter to the bakers. They can sell bread how they like, and need not weigh it or supply the proper quantity unless asked to do so by the customer, and then may charge what they like by the pound. It was not so in the Province of Auckland, and I think now that it ought to be compulsory for the bakers to supply full weight-bread. We are told that the whole ot the&provincial legislation is perfect humbug,; and, "Oh, clear, what clever fellows we are !" One would have thought that the food of the people, the supply of their daily bread, would have been a subject well worthy of the attention of this Legislature ; but no, we are so busy looking after the rabbit nuisance that we lose sight of these things. There was another matter that caused a great deal of discussion in Auckland.

Publicans and the Permissive r* Bill.

There was a great agitation amongst herents of the United Kingdom Alliance, and the publicans. Well, we went into that matter. Ido not suppose we solved the ques tion to the satisfaction of everybody : nobo'i;* could. But I will tell you what we did :we put the wholesale dealers, the publicans, and the Club on the same footing, and established: the permissive clause. The Club defied us ; and, unluckily for us, Mrßroham, the inspec-; tor of Police, who should have laid an informa-t tion, was a member of the Club, and we could not get him to do so. Then the people came : and asked us to repeal the permissive clause so far as the wholesale dealers were concerned,; and that compromise did a great deal of good, j We altered that one clause, settled all the complaints, and saved the trouble of passing a new Bill. This Assembly, which seems to me. to have got altogether above its work, at tempted to legislate upon the same subject;, and how did it 'succeed ? Did it succeed in meeting the requirements of a single province? Did it please the publicans or the teetotallers ?; No. On the contrary, it set the licensing laws of the colony all adrift-; and what was the first thing we had to do when we.met again? Why, we had to pass a law to whitewash, the Justices and the publicans, '< who had' been compelled to set the laws at defiance, and, generally, to set the matters ! right. Last session, too, the Government took up an electoral law, which was intro duced by Mr. Steward, the member for Waitaki. It was received with acclamation. It provided that persons who were registered on the B.oad Board rolls shonld be registered on the general electoral rolls. And what did the Government do ? They sent up, to Auck land to say that it was perfectly unworkable. What did the Premier tell us ? He said it was a perfect absurdity, ' and he wanted it wiped out, because he thought that neither the House nor the Government could make much of it. Have the legislators of the Pro vinces eyer made such messes as that? In the last session there was a Bill brought down which was connected) I believe,, with Wel lington, and it was passed. On the very next day another. Bill was brought in to amend it— this House had made such a " mull" of the first Bill that it did not answer its object.

Poverty Bay Massacre

There is one thing I should like to say to my honourable friend the member for Napier (Capt. Russell). The people in the province of Auckland, he will remember, were denounced by him at a very great rate for their hard heartedness at the time of the Poverty Bay disasters, and for the avarice, which it was said, they displayed in extorting money from the people there under the pretence of building schools, which money they either put into their own pockets, or into those of their officers. Now, for the first charge. The news of the massacre came up to Auckland like a triunder clap. The Superintendent of the province was absent, I think, at the time, but I cannot'say where. Even if present, he, had no military power. There was a man-of-war or two in the harbour, which remained, at anchor. Colonel Balnea vis came to me, and asked me what I thought could be done to relieve the, people of Poverty Bay. We talked the matter over with others, and eventually arrangements were made —it does not matter by whom — that the steamer ' Duke .of Edinburgh,' which was owned by Mr. Hague ' Smith, and which - was then at the Thames', should be placed . at, our disposal on, her. return to Auckland;, and the arrangement was that if she was wanted for seven pays the charge would be £ioo per day, but if she was kept for a month or over, it was to be £T$ per day. There was one man in Auckland guaranteed all the money that was required. Everything was arranged to be ready for the steamer, by the time she was brought alongside the Auckland wharf; fuel, water, and a fresh crew were procured ; and a great many men agreed to go down to the assistance of the people of Poverty Bay—l was one of them. I then went and told Dr Pollen what arrangements had been made. But what did he reply ? Why,, simply, that the General Government had made other arrangements. I know this, because t am one of the men who had a hand in it. The men who were ready to goto the assistance of the people of Poverty Bay were, for the most part, discharged soldiers, who had been under fire, not only in : New Zealand but out of it too, and of course expected to be paid for their services;, and money was to be advanced to pay them, and to procure food, &c; but it is only fair to say that it is fully understood that the money so advanced was to be repaid by the Govern ment. After all, I am not quite sure that the people1 of ■ Poverty Bay would have done as much for Auckland had the latter place been similarly circumstanced. NoW, with regard to, avarice,1 I suppose ' there are some schools down there'which have to be paid for.. It believe at first that the people of Poverty Bay did not pay the education tax; But the people of Auckland did, .'and they . suffered very much in consequence. They considered that schools were more urgently required in the country than in the town, and consequently they were willing to allow the greater, part of the money to be spent in the country. After a while pressure was put upon ■ Mr. Lusk, and he sued for the rates which the people of Poverty Bay had not paid. I can see nothing in that. lam told that it was cruel to do so, and I am reminded of the story about a man who had been dunned very often for money. At length one of his creditors appeared, and asked him. again for hi» money, when the man ex claimed very fiercely, "You have been here

hirtv times for your money. Why do you come so often?" The reply was, "Because you did' not pay me the first time." It is simply non sense to say that they have not got value for. their money, for they have three schools there. The people of Poverty Bay, it seems to me, should not run down the inhabitants of Auck-, land. Captain RUSST^L.—I Jo not belongj to Poverty Bay:

The Land Fund.

Mr SWANSON.-If whaJ T have said is true, surely it destroys the effect of anything yr.*« have said about the avarice and cold-heartedness oi Uie people oi Auck land. Then there was another hem ra!> lc gent'eraan (Mr Stevens), who made a fine speetiH m a very fine manner. Addressing Auckland in tiw person of Mr Whitaker, he says, in effect, "You .warn ' our.Vrf Fund, do yon? Don't you wish you m;c? _ ct *'\ we were all beginning anew, b would be i r*ii" nJ l<l -l ust > I would then agree to it, but T cannot now. My near fellow, we have each sot used to our relative Positions —we are used to having all the money, and .V 0 1 uaJ' c used to doing without it. We have not bent om ■''acKs nor hardened our hands with work, as you ha\ e think I see you as chief of the Auckland lotus-eiuers after getting a share of our Land Fund. But this nl."c" we will do. If you are so hard up that yon cannot £. « on at all—especially if you cannot educate your childrer.^. I swear that I would not mind doing a little for you. But if we would be so well off with a share of the public money. what must the South be with nil ofitj_ We all know that if a vessel is rit sea, and the provisions run short, everything: is turned up in the shape of food and laid under contribution, so that eveTy man on board may get luVfair share and no more. And we know, too, that in such cases it sometimes happens that people sacrifice some of their number in on?t t to pre serve the lives of others. We are in a Somewlu it simi.ar position to this, although we are not yet recluci •■<s toi the necessity of eating one another. There is plent v of toocl on board our boat, but it is all stored aft, anrt tin ' vessel is down by the stem. One set of people are ro\ lm^ m clover, while another set have not the means of carry ing on their institutions. A certain honorable g< 'ntle man said last year that we might make a wreck o. '^lie provinces and sweep everything belonging to t\ lem away, but that we must not attempt to touch tlle Timaru and Gladstone Hoard of Works. That remit, "ds me of a character in one of Thackeray's works, calk 'd Becky Sharp, who found that it was very easy to he virtuous on £5,000 a year. And so any of us woulg find it, I dare say. We have heard it said that ifio people In some districts are so well endowed that they are not called upon to pay anything when they have bridges and roads to make, but I too could afford to> philosophise if the people of Newton were in the same enviable condition. Where I come from there are people whose shoulders are bent and whose hands are hard through work, to whom the tax-gatherer is a constant visitor on account of such works as those. The honourable member for Timam has told us that there are Road Boards in his province which can do without calling- upon the people to pay rates. We have heard something about cosmo politans : the meaning- of the word, I believe, is a citizen of the world." I have known the sons of gentle men sailing about the world in their yachts, and touching at this place and at that, going: justwliere they like, and "doing what they like ; but who never knp,w the difficulty of getting money experienced by the man who goes to work with his tools on his back. '- o my mind those are cosmopolitans : but there are- vet V few of that sort in Newton. I feel quite proud when ,'■ hear the accents of my country in this House, and 1 daresay some honorable .gentleman will be glad' also to hear my broad Scotch. But let any one, however much. a countryman of mine he may be, get up in this House and speak against my; constituents, no.matter what countrymen those constituents may be, and he will have: to look for opposition from me.. We should all stick by one another and regard each other with friendly feel ings. The great strength of the English army consists, not in mixing the soldiers up like plums in a pudding—aiv Englishmen here, Scotchmen there, and Irishmen some where else, but is attained by keeping the different nationalities in separate regiments. # This House is something like a chain, its character is measured by its weakest 'link. The Premier quoted the remarks of some great statesman at Home that the House of Com mons collectively had much better taste than any indi vidual in it, but that at times it had much worse taste than any individual member; and I will say that the more numerous a House is, the mOi\* would its evils and its follies be increased by those members in it who are ignorant. I am willing to take my share amongst those, and my share in all responsibility foi' "^a legisla tion.

Municipal Corporations Bill-

Take, for instance, the Municipal CorporOtlons Bill that is now in course of"passage through this Ho k ' ls. c- See what differences of opinion there were regarding1 »''• How we were holding one another back. Auckland, wanted long leases; and, from experience, I am sure they were' quite justified in wishing for them ; and Otago, and I think the Middle Island generally, as well, I may say, as the Ministry, fancied short leases not ex ceeding twenty-one years. What ■ was the result of these two sets of conflicting opinions ? Why, we could do nothing. Each was following his own way, and the result was that nothing whatever was done. Now, had the people of Otago been legislating about this matter, it would all have been settled in about five minute?. Had the other question been discussed in Auckland, it would ha(ve lasted an hour at the most. By that mean's, both ends of the. colony would have been satisfied, and there would'have been two fair and impartial experi ments going on !'in the country at the same time, and that ;postenty 'for whom we are legislating would at all events have some chance of avoiding any of the evils which either of these systems might have developed. 1 rose to speak; rather provoked }>y the way in which this was put by the Minister for Immigration. It was said that: Provincialism was before the country, and that the people had replied that they vtfould have no more to do with itj ' I denied that on the,part of my province ;.but I will tell the House what was before the country ; that we should go: iix. for a common purse. That was the main question at the hustings ;; and, failing that; we should get the next best thing, and be allowed to manage our own affairs, and not be dragged to destruc tion by people who did not know anything about us. I appeal to every member of the Province of Auckland if these are not the questions that were asked ; and if a candidate did not say he ■ would go in for that line of policy he would not have had any chance of being re turned, i I except the honorable member for Waipa . he. has stated that he said he would do nothing of the sort, and I am not in a position tq, contradict him ; but those were the'questions that were before us. lam perfectly sure that not a man :in the Province of Auck land, from, one end to the other, wants such Provin cialism as,.we have; had ;lately. We had a first^rato machine for legislating and managing our own affairs, but not one1 farthing' of money, to work it with. lam | wrong in saying one, farthing, for we had some to carry jon the necessary establishments, although in a very'poor jway,; but we had no money,for. public works urgently I required.

Separation

! I ( consider; that ■ the next best thing to a Com-' jmori purse would be separation. Under that system, ithere would be some chance,.at all events —whether the [Legislature met in Auckland or at Lake Taupo, if the [Central Government is; to be in the middle of the 'country—there wonld.be some chance of. the people having' a tolerable knowledge of the,affairs , of the, [island." But i under the present system lam satisfied ithere is hardly.a northern man in the House, unless he.; ijs in the Government,, who has any knowledge of what' jis taking place in the Middle Island ; and yet, we .are called upon to vote for these works and these offices that' !we know'acttially nothing about. On the other hand,' if we protest against anything that is going to be done .which we of. the- North think is wrong, or if we desire: to have' something done in the North which we think to be right, we are' overwhelmed by the southern votes' ;I"he South is equally .affected, by our interfering in its' affairs. All that would be avoided if we were separated:' jHere, I may remark that, if there was a legislative body in each'province, or in each island, there would be some chance of the: members'becoming acquainted with all the details of the, legislation, and .you would get the best men for the' work. In this Assembly there is not the remotest chance of that being done. If a man Wants to do any good for the count) y in this House, , his plan is to,take-up one particular matter, and try' to deal with and grasp that. He may then make some lirfpression on the House and on the.country. Take,1 for-instance; the question of Native affairs. If,a man. lays himself out to unravel the mysteries of that sub-' ject, he,,,may do. jt,. and .thus be of -some service. Another man would take the; question, of finance if he fad any turn for'that subject, and-might make some- - thing: out of it. But as to any member mastering the details of everything that comes before' this'H6use, it is simply, impossible for any one even : to, read them, fa' i less to'give any time to the consideration of what takes j i place. What are the duties of a member of-this House ?■ i At breakfast.the' Order Paper is placed in his hands,', apd, after glancing at, that, he, finds' that he has to : attend a Committee say at eleven o'clock. He remains ' there all the rest' of the morping—it was half-past one ojcloclc before I left a Committee this day—and then he snatches a few moments for a meal, and comes to this House to listen to the debates.and be prepared to answer some of the remarks, if he can. At half-past: , five o'clock he- goes to dinner; and then returns and remains in the House until half-past ten; at which hour he is enabled to indulge in a cup : of, coffee, or a glass of ' sherry. He has then, generally, to, stay here until : half-past one'or two o'clogltin the morning. Yet not- ■ - withstanding that, our itime is so occupied, we are ex- ' pected to ''read, mark, learn, and inwardly digest" the ; hfty or sixty Bills that are. already before,the House,. and the stack of papers that fill our pigeon holes—com prisingreports on. the-Westport Collieries, papers on the Rabbit Nuisance, ■ and all the documents that can be supplied from every department ;of the Civil Service. : It is impossible a member can gain anything like an : Intelhgent knowledge of atl these subjects... We hear a I great deal of talk, from those opposed to these resclu-. . tions, about the ,\ unity of the colony." Now that is a nlu e Pi 1?1" 5 and sounds very. well. But I will tell you Tv b. el. leve 'he unity of the colony means. ,It means' the dominion of the Civil Servants from one end of the - colony, to the'Qther.,' It is possible that, if the colony was divided, there might be a better view kept over those '.', gentlemen, arid the public might receive more for their ' money. The legislation of-this House has been to a ■ great extent to create clepartments'. Departments have; ', been created every year,' and large sums of money voted ' for them, regardless of whether they, .were wanted or ' :r not." If lam riof'wfongly there are one or ■ two splendid yachts being brill,',' with expensive cabins ' and Ju?m£sj for. thespTOo«6 of cwyingai tivt galloon?' li '- iP;