conversations: human
conversations:  Arena Tournament, Round 26:  Todd  vs.  Kurgan    
   Map:  
   Spoiler 
  
   
   
  
   XP Award:  300 XP
   GP Award:  300 GP
  
   Mavian - Todd 
   Kurgan - Dragonstar  
   All Combatants, please roll initiative. 
conversations: ArenaManager:
conversations: human
conversations:  I have a question... Can you take a class substitution in the middle, ala Kurgan's Dragonscale husk. Or do you have to wait until you level up and retrain it?
conversations: Mavian:
conversations: human
conversations:  High Ref Talic 
  
  Arena rules allow for retraining between matches, per PHB 2.
  
  In the 1st paragraph of retraining in the PHB2, retraining is stated to be available only when levelling up.
  
  Dragonstar needs to correct this by removing the Dragonscale husk variant and replacing it with the armor proficiencies lost.
conversations: Talic:
conversations: human
conversations:  I don't believe that's the way it works. The Arena rules state that you may retrain between matches. As you can not level between a match, only once you are out of a round, that makes the option to retrain between matches completely pointless. I believe the intent of the rule is to override the leveling requirement, but to still follow the PHB2 retraining rules allowing only a single thing to be changed.
  
  I'm calling for this ruling to be overturned by higher authority before we continue on.
conversations: Dragonstar:
conversations: human
conversations:  ref chilepepper  
  Ah, I see Dragonstar's point.  It says in the section "In Between Matches" that you can retrain.  Everything else in that section clearly refers to things you can do in between matches, like purchasing items.  It doesn't seem like the section is mistitled.
  
  IMO, the retraining guidelines shouldn't be in that section.  I can't see retraining  between  levels.
conversations: chilepepper:
conversations: human
conversations:  GM Kyeudo  
  
  Let's look at the rule in question.
  
   
   Originally Posted by ArenaManager 
   *Characters may be retrained,  as by the  Player's Handbook II  Retraining Rules.  
   
  
  Bolding Mine.
  
  Because we specify that it is as per PHB2's rules, those rules still hold sway unless specificaly noted otherwise (such as with the retraining of flaws and traits), even if it is listed in the "between matches" section of the rules. Because PHB2 clearly marks retraining as an action that can only happen when leveling up, that is the only time it can be done.
  
  The rule is listed as something to do between matches because everything you can do that doesn't take place at the begining, during, or end of a match is listed there. The heading of the section is in no way its own ruling.
  
  Since there is no current need for a "things to do when leveling up" section, I don't see any reason to move the rule to a new section at this time.
conversations: Kyeudo:
conversations: human
conversations:  Fair enough then. I'd recommend altering the text on the front page to clarify that point though. Sheet altered, purchased a potion and new weapon.
  
  Let's get this show on the road. After all, I may have to do this match twice. 😉
    initiative  - (1d20+2)[ 6 ] 
conversations: Dragonstar:
conversations: human
conversations:  Another point of order.
  
  I do believe your over the wealth by level guidelines now.
  
  If I remember correctly, the WBL for a level 2 character is 900 gp.  Your equipment exceeds that at the moment.  So what are you leaving behind?
conversations: Mavian:
conversations: human
conversations:  Sorry, I wasn't aware of the rule - I leave behind one of my two potions of Cure Light, bringing me 16gp below the limit. Continue on?
conversations: Dragonstar:
conversations: human
conversations:  As some people have noted, I'm a bit of a rules lawyer, so I apologize if I gave any offense, I just liking things neat and orderly.  I also bought a potion of Beastland Ferocity, which I will be starting with in one hand, holding my poleax with the other as I stand in B14
  
  Initiative -  (1d20+1)[ 6 ] 
  
  @Edit: Tied matches go to the higher modifier which means that its your move.
conversations: Mavian:
conversations: human
conversations:  No offense taken. I've been DM for the same group on Thursday nights for well over two years, and I have two very capable rules lawyers. One is a DCI judge - he's the prosecuting attorney type. The other is the ambulance chasing lawyer type. Both very different, but very capable forms of the same thing - for a time the former was a paladin and the latter a rogue. Imagine that one...
  
  Point being, I'm used to it. 😁
  
  But enough rambling - let the battle begin!
  
  Start in Y14, Shield in one hand, potion in the other. Standard action drink potion, move action 20' forward to U15, drawing my pick as I go. Pass the turn.
  
  Stats: 
   Spoiler 
  Location: U15
  HP 20/20
  AC 16, T 9, FF 16
  Fort +6. Ref -3, Will -1
  Ongoing Effects: Bull's Strength 1/30
   
conversations: Dragonstar:
conversations: human
conversations:  Todd - Round 1
  
  Double Move to I17
  
  End of  Turn:
  
  Stats for Refs:
   
   Spoiler 
  
  Hp: 19
  AC: 15
  Speed: 20
  Manuevers: All Readied
  Stance: None
   
conversations: Mavian:
conversations: human
conversations:  Move to Q15
  
   
   Spoiler 
  
  Standard action total defense.
  Location: Q15
  HP 20/20
  AC 20, T 13, FF 16
  Fort +6. Ref -3, Will -1
  Ongoing Effects: Bull's Strength 2/30
   
  
  
  You may go.
conversations: Dragonstar:
conversations: human
conversations:  Todd: Round 2
  
  Standard Action: Drink Potion
  Move Action: I17 to K15 regripping my Poleaxe in both hands
  
  End of Turn
  
  Stats for Refs:
   
   Spoiler 
  
  Hp: 19
  AC: 15
  Speed: 20
  Manuevers: All Readied
  Stance: None
  Beastland Ferocity: ( Can fight until -10 hp) 1/10
   
conversations: Mavian:
conversations: human
conversations:  Move to N15
   
   Spoiler 
  Ready action, if he gets within 10' (such as M16) I will 5-ft adjust to close in and strike.
  
  Location: U15
  HP 20/20
  AC 16, T 9, FF 16
  Fort +6. Ref -3, Will -1
  Ongoing Effects: Bull's Strength 3/30
   
  
  
  You may go.
conversations: Dragonstar:
conversations: human
conversations:  Todd - Round 3.
  
  I'm assuming you've readied an action, since all you preformed was a move action.   Kyeudo has ruled that readying an action is visible here .
  
  Swift Action: Activate Strength Domain
  Free Action: Five-foot step to L15
  Standard Action: Smash the wall
  Attack Roll:  (1d20+3)[ 23 ] 
  Damage:  (2d6+4)[ 7 ] 
  Stance:  (1d6)[ 5 ] 
  
  End of Turn:
  
  Stats for Refs:
   
   Spoiler 
  
  Hp: 19
  AC: 13
  Speed: 20
  Manuevers: All Readied
  Stance: None
  Beastland Ferocity: ( Can fight until -10 hp) 2/10
   
conversations: Mavian:
conversations: human
conversations:  Move to N17 and take a more defensive stance.
  
   
   Spoiler 
  Standard action total defense.
  Location: N17
  HP 20/20
  AC 20, T 13, FF 16
  Fort +6. Ref -3, Will -1
  Ongoing Effects: Bull's Strength 4/30
   
  
  
  You may go.
conversations: Dragonstar:
conversations: human
conversations:  Standard Action: Attack with Poleaxe and Sapphire Nightmare Blade
  Concentration Check:  (1d20+13)[ 25 ]  If this hits you are flat-footed
  Attack:  (1d20+4)[ 23 ] 
  Damage:  (2d6)[ 8 ]  + 4 Strength which I forgot to add.
  Stance:  (1d6)[ 5 ] 
  Sapphire  (1d6)[ 2 ] 
  
  So, 19 points of damage in total.
  
  Move Action: L15 to K15
  
  End of Turn:
  
  Stats for Ref:
   
   Spoiler 
  
  Hp: 19
  AC: 13
  Speed: 20
  Manuevers: Charging Minotaur, Moment of Perfect Clarity
  Stance: Punishing Stance
  Beastland Ferocity: ( Can fight until -10 hp) 3/10
   
conversations: Mavian:
conversations: human
conversations:  Ref Bayar  
  
   
   Originally Posted by Mavian 
   Another point of order.
  
  I do believe your over the wealth by level guidelines now.
  
  If I remember correctly, the WBL for a level 2 character is 900 gp.  Your equipment exceeds that at the moment.  So what are you leaving behind? 
   
  
  I belive that that is a suggested rule and should not be in effect. So Dragonstar can keep his second CLW potion.
conversations: Bayar:
conversations: human
conversations:  Point of order - I don't see anywhere that you took a swift action to activate your stance. You applied the stance damage to the glass as well, but your swift action that round was activating your domain power.
  
  Free action - draw potion
  Standard action - drink potion  (1d8+1)[ 8 ] 
  
  I'll wait on my move action until I know how much damage I really took that round.
conversations: Dragonstar:
conversations: human
conversations:  High Ref Talic 
  
  While I'm sure Mavian would have agreed with you, your point is correct.  Mavian hasn't actually spent an action to activate his stance.  Bonus damage from that stance did not occur.
conversations: Talic:
conversations: human
conversations:  Move to O18
  
  Stats: 
   Spoiler 
  Location: O18
  HP 16/20
  AC 16, T 9, FF 16
  Fort +6. Ref -3, Will -1
  Ongoing Effects: Bull's Strength 5/30
   
  
  
  You're up. Any Happy Easter to anyone here who celebrates it! 😁
conversations: Dragonstar:
conversations: human
conversations:  You are quite correct, I was thinking of my strength domain, forgot which one I had activated.  Consider my Hoist by my own Petard
  
  Move Action: K15 to N16
  Standard Action: Attack with Poleaxe, recovering my used manuevers.
  Attack:  (1d20+4)[ 23 ] 
  Damage:  (2d6+4)[ 7 ] 
  
  @Edit: Sigh, I obviously should've switched over to a 19-20 threat range weapon for this match.
  
  End of Turn:
  
  Stats for  Refs:
   
   Spoiler 
  
  Hp: 19
  AC: 13
  Speed: 20
  Manuevers: All Readied
  Stance: None
  Beastland Ferocity: ( Can fight until -10 hp) 4/10
  Strength Domain: 2/10
   
conversations: Mavian:
conversations: human
conversations:  No kidding - for such a small bonus, you've been rolling like a complete badass. 😉
  
  5-ft Step into O17
  
  Free action enter a Righteous Fury
  
  Standard action   attack  - (1d20+8)[ 18 ]  for a potential   damage  - (1d6+8)[ 9 ] 
  
  If Nat 20, then   confirmation  - (1d20+8)[ 28 ]  for an additional   crit  - (3d6+24)[ 34 ]  damage.
  
  @Edit: Figures, I Nat 20 on the unnecessary confirmation roll. 😩
  
  You may go.
  
  Stats: 
   Spoiler 
  Location: O17
  HP 9/20
  AC 16, T 9, FF 16
  Fort +6. Ref -3, Will -1
  Ongoing Effects: Bull's Strength 6/30; Righteous Fury 1/2
   
conversations: Dragonstar:
conversations: human
conversations:  Todd - Round 6
  
  Swift Action: Activate Punishing Stance
  Free Action: Five foot step to M16
  Standard Action: Attack with Sapphire Nightmare Blade
  Concentration Check:  (1d20+13)[ 22 ]  If this hits you are flatfooted.
  Attack Roll:  (1d20+4)[ 23 ] 
  Damage:  (2d6+4)[ 8 ] 
  Stance:  (1d6)[ 1 ] 
  Sapphire:  (1d6)[ 1 ] 
  
  @Edit: That's it, I'm switching weapons if I get a rematch.
  
  End of Turn:
  
  Stats for Refs:
   
   Spoiler 
  
  Hp: 11
  AC: 13
  Speed: 20
  Manuevers: Moment of Perfect Clarity, Charging Minotaur Strike
  Stance: Punishing Stance
  Beastland Ferocity: ( Can fight until -10 hp) 5/10
  Strength Domain: 3/10
   
conversations: Mavian:
conversations: human
conversations:  Round 7
  
  5-ft step to N17 and utter a prayer to Bahamut to let me destroy this pretender.
  
    attack  - (1d20+8)[ 15 ]  for a potential   damage  - (1d6+8)[ 11 ] .
  
  If Nat 20   confirmation  - (1d20+8)[ 15 ]  for an additional   crit  - (3d6+24)[ 38 ]  damage.
  
   
   Spoiler 
  Location: N17
  HP -2/20 (diehard)
  AC 16, T 9, FF 16
  Fort +6. Ref -3, Will -1
  Ongoing Effects: Bull's Strength 7/30; Righteous Fury 2/2 (ends at the beginning of my next turn)
   
  
  
  You may go.
conversations: Dragonstar:
conversations: human
conversations:  Talk about a Slugfest :p
  
  Todd - Round 7
  
  Free Action: Five foot step from M16 to L15
  Standard Action: Launch an attack with my poleaxe, recovering my maneuvers.
  Attack:  (1d20+4)[ 23 ] 
  Damage:  (2d6+4)[ 7 ] 
  Stance:  (1d6)[ 3 ] 
  
  End of Turn:
  
  @Edit: I swear, I'm not cheating... Honest.  *Kicks the dice roller a few times*
  
  Stats for Refs:
   
   Spoiler 
  
  Hp: -1
  AC: 13
  Speed: 20
  Manuevers: All Readied
  Stance: Punishing Stance
  Beastland Ferocity: ( Can fight until -10 hp) 6/10
  Strength Domain: 6/10
   
conversations: Mavian:
conversations: human
conversations:  High Ref Talic 
  
  Well, technically Todd brings his foe to -10 before he drops to -1, so it looks like the win is well earned.
  
   Todd wins, and collects the bounties noted above. 
conversations: Talic:
conversations: human
conversations:  Actually, we both had diehard up :P so I've got about 24 seconds before I drop dead. :P
conversations: Mavian:
conversations: human
conversations:  Todd vs Kurgan  - Take two.
conversations: Mavian: