conversations: human
conversations:  Arena Tournament, Round 29:  Skrag  vs.  Bob the Destroyer    
   Map:  
   Spoiler 
   
  
  Extra notes: Houses are on average 20 feet high (just use that average figure all over the house), hay piles are up to 10 feet high against the walls. And, I don't care whether you're immune to  sanctuary  effects, you are not immune to the arena's  sanctuary  effect. Creatures summoned during the 1st round are also affected by the  sanctuary  effect.
   
  
   XP Award:  300 XP
   GP Award:  1st Place: 600 GP,
                          2nd Place: 300 GP
  
   Talic - Skrag 
   King Korath - Bob the Destroyer 
   All Combatants, please roll initiative. 
conversations: ArenaManager:
conversations: human
conversations:  Ah, rematch.  Thank goodness I was undefeated up to that point.  Hmm.
  
  Init:   (1d20+5)[ 15 ] 
  
  My tactic was sound last time, odds went against me.  Let's try this one more time.  Will make purchases in a bit.
conversations: Talic:
conversations: human
conversations:  Time to end this, I don't need to buy any thing so it is time to rumble.
  init  (1d20+3)[ 16 ] 
conversations: king korath:
conversations: human
conversations:  Yes! I get to start. Can I get your starting position.
conversations: king korath:
conversations: human
conversations:  You may.  I am purchasing a potion of spider climb.
  
  I'm in X11, mounted.  In hand is a vial, and a crossbow.
conversations: Talic:
conversations: human
conversations:  Start in D11 with my axe in one hand and a vial in the other.  I will move to W11, rage and drink the vial (potion of bears endurance). your turn.
  
  Stats
   
   Spoiler 
  ac15
  hp17
  rage round 1/12
   
conversations: king korath:
conversations: human
conversations:  Would you care to explain how you're getting 95 feet of movement AND using a standard action to drink a potion?
conversations: Talic:
conversations: human
conversations:  ref chilepepper  
  Here's what talic is talking about  :
  
  Relevent text from SRD
  
   Run
  
  You can run as a  full-round action . (If you do, you do not also get a 5-foot step.) When you run, you can move up to four times your speed in a straight line (or three times your speed if you’re in heavy armor). You lose any Dexterity bonus to AC unless you have the Run feat.
  
  You can run for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score, but after that you must make a DC 10 Constitution check to continue running. You must check again each round in which you continue to run, and the DC of this check increases by 1 for each check you have made. When you fail this check, you must stop running. A character who has run to his limit must rest for 1 minute (10 rounds) before running again. During a rest period, a character can move no faster than a normal move action.
  
  You can’t run across difficult terrain or if you can’t see where you’re going.
  
  A run represents a speed of about 12 miles per hour for an unencumbered human. 
conversations: chilepepper:
conversations: human
conversations:  No, he's got 50 move, he can get there with a double move.  He just can't do a double move (Requiring both his standard and move action) and drink a potion (requiring a standard action).
conversations: Talic:
conversations: human
conversations:  OK I don't drink the potion, sorry about that, other than that my actions are the same, your turn.
conversations: king korath:
conversations: human
conversations:  KK.
  
  My action, Round 1:
   move : Direct my mount to move, Pushing Mount, per ride skill.
  Ride (DC 15):  (1d20+11)[ 17 ] 
  If successful, my mount gains an additional 10 feet of movement this round.
  
  Edit:  Success.  Remainder of action to follow.  Mount takes 1 damage from pushing.
conversations: Talic:
conversations: human
conversations:  Round 1: continued.
  
  Move North, breaking LOS as I move North.  LOS broken as I move north out of Z6.  Auto succeed guide with knees check.
  
   
   Spoiler 
  Ending in Z1. Mount's move actions both used.  Mount will enrage at start of next action, per mount entry.
  
  I drink my spider climb potion (move action).
  
  Ride check: Fast Dismount (DC20):  (1d20+11)[ 27 ] 
  Dismounting into Y1:
  
  Hide:  (1d20+15)[ 31 ] 
  Move Silent:  (1d20+15)[ 29 ] 
  
  Edit:  Success on dismount.
   
  
  
  End Turn.
  
  Stats: 
   Spoiler 
  Skrag: Location Y1, Hiding
  HP: 8/8
  AC: 18 (+5 dex, +2 armor, +1 Size)
  In hand: Vial, Crossbow.
  Effects:  Spider Climb 1/300
  
  Badgera:
  Location: Z1
  HP: 27/28
  AC: 20
  Status effects:  Will enrage on next action
   
conversations: Talic:
conversations: human
conversations:  ref chilepepper  
  
  Skrag 
   Spoiler 
  Drinking a potion or applying an oil is a standard action.  You succeeded on the fast dismount, so that was a move action.  You're turn is fine as is, but for future reference drinking a potion is a standard action.
   
  
  
  Still Bob's turn.
conversations: chilepepper:
conversations: human
conversations:  @Chile 
   Spoiler 
  Yeah, I brain farted for a minute.  I had it all worked out, just typed it up wrong.
   
  
  
  Everything's good, continue.
conversations: Talic:
conversations: human
conversations:  Spoiler 
  move to Z 8
   
  
  Can I get a LoS check please. stats will be in the post that ends the turn.
conversations: king korath:
conversations: human
conversations:  ref chilepepper  
  
  refs 
   Spoiler 
  Bob's spot isn't enough to beat Skrag's hide.
   
  
  Bob 
   Spoiler 
  You see Skrag's mount in Z1
   
  
  Skrag 
   Spoiler 
  You see Bob moving northeast into Z8
   
  
  
  Still Bob's turn.
conversations: chilepepper:
conversations: human
conversations:  Spoiler 
  stay where I am, and drink the potion of bears endurance.
   
  
  end turn
  stats
   
   Spoiler 
  ac15
  hp17
  +2 con bonus from a potion, raging
  rage round 2/12
   
conversations: king korath:
conversations: human
conversations:  Awaiting LOS for my turn.
conversations: Talic:
conversations: human
conversations:  @Refs
   
   Spoiler 
  
  I have one problem here.   I don't believe that Skrags mount should be in rage.  The rage ability specifically states that it only applies due to combat damage.The damage taken from being pushed is not combat damage, the same as falling is not combat damage.  If
  
   we call it combat damage, then the one who actually damaged it and who it should be raging against is Talic, and it should turn to attack him.
   
  
  
  Quick pause for a ref chat, but I can do LoS for ya.
  
  @Talic
   
   Spoiler 
  
  LoS is the same as before
   
  
  
  @king korath
   
   Spoiler 
  
  LoS is the same as before
   
conversations: Mavian:
conversations: human
conversations:  ref chilepepper  
  
  My 2cp
  refs 
   Spoiler 
  
  The entry for dire badger says, "A dire badger that takes damage in combat..."  It doesn't say combat damage, it says damage in combat.  The badger is in combat and has taken damage, so by the letter of the rule, it enters rage.
   
  
  
  Match still on hold.
conversations: chilepepper:
conversations: human
conversations:  Ref Maurkov  
  
  @refs 
   Spoiler 
  Shouldn't the badger rage and attack the person who damaged it, in this case, Skrag?  After all, who gave it the spurs?
  
  No?  Well, that would be funny, anyway.
  
  By RAW, it is combat and it is damage (and I suppose the rider is not technically an opponent).  I think it works; good rules lawyering on Talic's part.
  
  Unless it senses Bob, though, I think that lacking an opponent it will then stop raging, and I would assume be fatigued.
   
conversations: Maurkov:
conversations: human
conversations:  ref chilepepper  
  
  refs 
   Spoiler 
  There is an opponent.  I would think the badger would take off looking for it in a feverish recklessness.
   
conversations: chilepepper:
conversations: human
conversations:  @Refs
   
   Spoiler 
  
  So if Bob were to leave the badgers sight, would it then go after Skrag? Since he's no longer actively controlling it?
   
conversations: Mavian:
conversations: human
conversations:  Ref Maurkov  
  
  @refs 
   Spoiler 
  Now that I think about it, Skrag has an opponent.  I'm not certain that the badger does.  Until Bob attacks the badger, or Skrag (via handle animal) makes it attack Bob, why would it go hunting?  I'm not certain that an animal knows it's "in combat" until somebody attacks it, or it is made to attack.
  
  I reverse my previous ruling.  I don't think it would rage up.
   
conversations: Maurkov:
conversations: human
conversations:  High Ref Mav 
  
  @Refs
   
   Spoiler 
  
  That's kind of were I was going...  If it does rage... wouldn't it attack the  one that had caused it damage?  Which would be Skrag, as Bob has done nothing threatening towards it at all.
   
conversations: Mavian:
conversations: human
conversations:  Are we still paused?
conversations: Talic:
conversations: human
conversations:  @refs 
   Spoiler 
  Oops.  I had the names reversed.  *goes to revise his posts so they might make sense*
   
conversations: Maurkov:
conversations: human
conversations:  Ref Bayar  
  
  @refs:
   
   Spoiler 
  I would say that it doesnt activate rage because:
  
  1. It didnt get damaged during actual combat (which requires it to be damaged by an opponent)
  
  2. It doesnt sense Talic's opponent as his opponent unless it is attacked by him or is handled to attack him
   
conversations: Bayar:
conversations: human
conversations:  ref chilepepper  
  
  refs 
   Spoiler 
  I'm inclined to lean towards:  The mount is trained for combat, and the arena is the only combat it's seen.  It's been in a previous match, and in the Dawn Arena, it has LoS.  Given a random situation, no it would be able to discern friend from foe.  But in the arena, with experience in this particular arena, it has LoS to the opponent's starting position and it can see who or what is there at the beginning of the match.  I think it plausible to assume the badger knows, from training, that what it sees on the other side of the arena is the enemy.
   
  
  
  and yes, we are still paused, your ex-girlfriend won't answer the phone
conversations: chilepepper:
conversations: human
conversations:  *grumble* She always was the type to make me wait.
conversations: Talic:
conversations: human
conversations:  @Refs
   
   Spoiler 
  
  It doesn't have training to say that though,  it's simply an animal, with an intelligence of 3.  It's been damaged, by the one that was riding it, not by the  one who's standing in front of him.  It's like smacking a dog, and then jumping off and expecting him to chase someone else.
   
conversations: Mavian:
conversations: human
conversations:  I have a bad feeling when there is a ref debate going on☹️ . Just let me know when we will restart.
conversations: king korath:
conversations: human
conversations:  Nah, it's not gonna be a match restart, I'm pretty sure.  Everything we've done so far is by the book, as far as I can tell.  I think they're trying to head something off so it doesn't later become a rewind.
conversations: Talic:
conversations: human
conversations:  ref chilepepper  
  
  refs 
   Spoiler 
  I was referring to combat riding.   I guess it all depends on what that entails.  I could see it either way.
  
  I think I'm all debated out on this subject.  There's not much else I have to offer in the way of opinions.  Good luck.
   
conversations: chilepepper:
conversations: human
conversations:  GM Kyeudo  
  
  @refs
   
   Spoiler 
  
  I do not get what the debate here is about. RAW: If a dire badger takes damage, then it rages until the end of combat. RAW: Pushing a mount causes damage. Therefore, RAW: The Badger is raging.
  
  Not RAW: Raging badgers attack indiscrimiately or attack the nearest creature. Nowhere in the Dire Badger's Rage entry does it say anything about the badger's behavior changing. A Raging Badger is even less mentaly handicapped than a Raging Barbarian.
  
  The Badger continues to act as it's training dicatates.
   
  
  
  Unless another ref has something else, I think this match can resume.
conversations: Kyeudo:
conversations: human
conversations:  Yay!  Round 2! (barring further ref discussion)
  
   Skrag, Round 2, part 2 
  
  My actions: 
   Spoiler 
  Free: Drop Vial
  Double Move:  From Y1 to Y6 (on top of building, 20 feet up)
  Hide:  (1d20+10)[ 21 ] 
  MS:  (1d20+10)[ 27 ] 
  (factored in penalty for movement over 1/2, did not factor in distance penalties)
   
  
  
  Badger:  Rages.  Charges south from Z1 to Z7, and attacks.
  Attack:  (1d20+8)[ 24 ] 
  Damage:  (1d4+4)[ 8 ] 
   If Threat:  (1d20+8)[ 12 ] 
  If Crit: [roll] 1d4+4[/roll] 
  
  Edit: Hit, no threat, so broken roll doesn't matter.
  Edit: Done.
  
  Stats: 
   Spoiler 
  Skrag: Location Y6, Hiding (Hide: 21, MS: 27)
  HP: 8/8
  AC: 18 (+5 dex, +2 armor, +1 Size)
  In hand: Crossbow.
  Effects:  Spider Climb 2/300
  
  Badgera:
  Location: Z7
  HP: 31/32
  AC: 16 (+3 Dex, +3 Natural, +4 Armor, -2 Charge, -2 Rage
  Status effects:  Rage */*
   
conversations: Talic:
conversations: human
conversations:  Ref Maurkov  
  
  I'm not certain it's required, but could you make a handle animal check to direct the badger?  If you fail, we refs will hash out whether you needed it.
conversations: Maurkov:
conversations: human
conversations:  Already asked in PM with both Kyeudo and Mavian for this point.  The rage description (as follows:
  
  
   A dire badger that takes damage in combat flies into a berserk rage on its next turn, clawing and biting madly until either it or its opponent is dead. It gains +4 Strength, +4 Constitution, and -2 AC. The creature cannot end its rage voluntarily. 
  
  That clawing and biting line can be considered enough to set the default to "attack", rather than "avoid combat".
  
  Still, if that is overturned:  
   Spoiler 
  Handle Animal: (1d20-3)[ 5 ] 
   
conversations: Talic:
conversations: human
conversations:  Ref Maurkov  
  
  I guess my question would be, why is Bob the badger's opponent?  Skrag is the one that injured him.  Now I'm noticing that with no ranks in Handle Animal, Skrag can't really make the badger do anything.  But if Kyuedo and Mavian are handling it, I'll butt out.
conversations: Maurkov:
conversations: human
conversations:  @Refs:
   
   Spoiler 
  Valid question, and I'll answer, but I REALLY think that this match has been on hold long enough.  The badger isn't even really a necessary part of my strategy.  I should be able to pepper the guy from the roof with crossbow bolts relatively easily.  If I get any more "match holds", and they're related to this, I'll happily state that the mount has gone completely retarded and will choose to stand unmoving, for the remainder of the match, a complete waste of the gold that was spent for it.
  
  Answer:
  Simple.  Counting this match, that badger has fought 3 times in the arena.  All 3, Bob was my opponent.  In the first, he cleft that badger nearly in twain with a large 2 handed weapon.  The same large 2 handed weapon he charged across the arena with in the first round of this combat, actually.  I think that establishes a solid case for a "threatening action".
  
  In addition, nowhere in the rules does the Push mount ability change the attitude of your mount.  It's not a commonly used ability, but I don't think the intent of the ability is, "+10 feet movement, 1 damage, and your mount hates you."  It doesn't change your mount from friendly to indifferent, or indifferent to hostile.  The mount takes one damage because it overexerts itself.  That's why the damage doubles each round, if you keep doing it.  It's nothing I'm doing, other than urging it to greater speed.
   
conversations: Talic:
conversations: human
conversations:  Ref Maurkov  
  
   
   Originally Posted by Maurkov 
   But if Kyuedo and Mavian are handling it, I'll butt out. 
   
  
  This is me not putting the match on hold.
conversations: Maurkov:
conversations: human
conversations:  Is it my turn, with me taking 8 damage or is something else happening?
conversations: king korath:
conversations: human
conversations:  yes, your go. have at it.
conversations: Talic:
conversations: human
conversations:  OK I attack the badger.
  attack  (1d20+8)[ 25 ] 
  damage  (3d6+12)[ 27 ] 
  end turn
  stats
   
   Spoiler 
  ac15
  hp9
  rage round 3/12
   
conversations: king korath:
conversations: human
conversations:  Ouch!  That's a hit. Badger's down to 4hp remaining.
  
   Skrag, Round 3 
  
  Badger:  Full attack back:
  
  Claw:   (1d20+6)[ 26 ] 
  Damage:  (1d4+4)[ 6 ] 
  If threat:  (1d20+6)[ 8 ] 
   If Crit:  (1d4+4)[ 7 ]  
  
  Claw:   (1d20+6)[ 26 ] 
  Damage:  (1d4+4)[ 6 ] 
  If threat:  (1d20+6)[ 19 ] 
  If Crit:  (1d4+4)[ 6 ] 
  
  Bite:   (1d20+1)[ 4 ] 
   Damage:  (1d6+2)[ 4 ] 
  If threat:  (1d20+1)[ 13 ] 
  If Crit:  (1d6+2)[ 3 ]  
  
  My action: (assuming you haven't seen me yet) (Standard action, Attack)
  Attack:  (1d20+9)[ 23 ] 
  Damage:  (1d8+1)[ 6 ] 
  Sneak Damage:  (1d6)[ 2 ] 
   If threat:  (1d20+9)[ 25 ] 
  If Crit:  (1d8+1)[ 4 ]  
  
  Attack bonus includes the following modifiers:  +5 (dex) +1 (size) +1 (point blank) +2 (unseen).
  
  Following the attack, you see me in Y6, atop the building. I then draw a vial (move action), and disappear from view.  
   Spoiler 
  5 foot step to X5
   
  
  
  End turn.
  
  Edit:  I believe that's 26 damage this round.  And yes, if the badger attacks drop him, I still fire.  I follow the evil overlord's guide.
  
  Stats: 
   Spoiler 
  Skrag: Location X5
  HP: 8/8
  AC: 18 (+5 dex, +2 armor, +1 Size)
  In hand: Crossbow.
  Effects: Spider Climb 3/300
  
  Badgera:
  Location: Z7
  HP: 4/32
  AC: 16 (+3 Dex, +3 Natural, +4 Armor, -2 Charge, -2 Rage)
  Status effects: Rage */*
   
conversations: Talic:
conversations: human
conversations:  GM Kyeudo  
   Skrag is the winner! 
  
  He is then eaten by a badger for causing so much trouble.
conversations: Kyeudo:
conversations: human
conversations:  Even though your badger ripped me to shreds, I still have my petty revenge, it by order of our overlords got you too😉 .  Good game.
conversations: king korath:
conversations: human
conversations:  You too.  You were a worthy opponent, and I learned a big lesson from you in round 2. :)
conversations: Talic: