conversations: human
conversations:  {table=head] |A|B|C|D|E|F|G|H|I|J|K|L 
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   26 |||||||||||[/table] 
  Arena is 30 feet tall, worked stone. Normal lighting.
  
  Buff Rounds : 1 + All Day (12+ hour) buffs.
  
  Starting locations: I'll start somewhere in the top two rows, and you'll start somewhere in the bottom two. Cool?
conversations: ex cathedra:
conversations: human
conversations:  Cool with me.
  
  Buffs:  
   Spoiler 
  All day:  Greater Magic Weapon (+5) on my chain and spikes
  
  1 round:  Tattoo of Touchsight
   
  
  
  Starting location:  
   Spoiler 
  C25
   
  
  
  Init:  (1d20+5)[ 14 ] 
conversations: PhoenixRivers:
conversations: human
conversations:  Introducing  Ryth'lin .
  
  Relevant modes of detection :
  True Seeing
  
  Starting position :
   
   Spoiler 
  
  H1, 10ft above ground.
   
  
  
  Buffs :
   
   Spoiler 
  
  Round 1: Drink Potion of Shield of Faith
  All-Day:
  Persistent Extended Quickened Shield [Power Component: Guardinal Feather]
  Persistent Protection From Evil
  Persistent Master's Touch
  Persistent Blades of Fire
  Persistent Ectoplasmic Armor
  Persistent Bladeweave
  Persistent Burning Sword
  Persistent Heroics [Improved Initiative]
  Persistent Wraithstrike
  Persistent Sonic Weapon
  Persistent Weapon Of Impact
  Persistent Weapon of Energy [Acid]
  Persistent Haste
  Persistent Greater Magic Weapon [+3]
  Persistent Displacement
  Persistent Fly
  Persistent Greater Mighty Wallop
  Persistent Greater Luminous Armor [Power Component: Guardinal Feather]
  Persistent Greater Invisibility
  Persistent Greater Mirror Image
  Persistent Acid Sheathe
  Persistent Greater Blink
  Persistent Bite Of The Wereboar
  Persistent Extended Divine Power
  Persistent Antimagic Field [Extraordinary Spell Aim to exclude myself]
  Persistent Bite Of The Weretiger
  Persistent Greater Heroism
  Persistent True Seeing
  Oil of Greater Magic Weapon [+5]
   
  
  
  Initiative:  (d20+15)[ 21 ] 
conversations: ex cathedra:
conversations: human
conversations:  Relevant modes of Detection:  Touchsight
  
  You're up?
  
  And, are there any exploits being used that prevent this character's allowance into Qualifiers?
conversations: PhoenixRivers:
conversations: human
conversations:  Ryth'lin 
  
  Turn 1 :
   
   Spoiler 
  
  Fly forward to K16
   
  
  
  Do you have line of sight/effect to the areas surrounding K16, and do you grant it? Also, touchsight within 10ft of K16 fails. You detect  nothing  there.
  
  
  Edit:
  I do not think I'm exploiting any limited or banned abilities. I simply have a character already in a long-dead dungeon instance, and I didn't feel like making this character dungeon-ready.
conversations: ex cathedra:
conversations: human
conversations:  No, I have no LOS to there, but I have LOE to some areas within 10 feet of it.
  
  
  I can only assume with the range of that effect, and the description, that it's an AMF.  AMF wizard, hm...  Must be a melee mage build.
  
  Done with your turn?
conversations: PhoenixRivers:
conversations: human
conversations:  Not quite.
  
   
   Spoiler 
  
  I take a total defense action. Because I'm scared.
   
  
  
  And now I am. Go ahead.
conversations: ex cathedra:
conversations: human
conversations:  Round 1:  
   Spoiler 
  Move west, then North, to B15.  Activate tattoo of expansion.  Expand to cover A14-B16 (squeezing for C row)
  
  Activate Thicket of Blades Stance, cause I can.
   
  
  
  Now I must figure out if you're a Grapple base that wanted to avoid FoM, an AMF donut build that wants to use magic while denying it to those close to him, or a Darkstalker/HiPS base, to avoid touchsight/mindsight while sniping.  If you're a mage, then 2 and 3 both mean donuting the AMF, simply due to HiPS.
  
  Done, by the by.
conversations: PhoenixRivers:
conversations: human
conversations:  Round 2 :
  
   
   Spoiler 
  
  Move to F20.
   
  
  
  The field and I move to F20. LoS/E? Not done.
conversations: ex cathedra:
conversations: human
conversations:  You see a portion of me in A17 and B17.  Heh.
conversations: PhoenixRivers:
conversations: human
conversations:  Oh my. What does this portion look like?
  
  Also, assuming touch sight is your only extraordinary sense, you see nothing within the area that you detect as an antimagic field.
  
  I'll move to B18.
  
   
   Spoiler 
  
  Activate a Belt of Battle
   
  
  
  Not done.
conversations: ex cathedra:
conversations: human
conversations:  Holding a spike chain, about 32 feet tall.
  
  At B18, I go back to medium size.
  
  Oh, and one more thing.  You're aware that you cannot cast defensively within a rather large area of me.
conversations: PhoenixRivers:
conversations: human
conversations:  I attack.
  
  If you don't interrupt my attack:
   
   Spoiler 
  
  
  I am invisible, and I remain so while attacking.
  
  Attack 1:
   
   Spoiler 
  
   (d20+31)[ 34 ]  vs Touch AC.
  
  Hit :
   
   Spoiler 
  
   (8d8+18)[ 60 ]  Bludgeoning damage
   [roll]1d6+1d8[/roll] Fire damage 
   (1d6)[ 1 ]  Acid Damage
   (1d6)[ 4 ]  Sonic damage.
  
  If successful, make a DC20 will save.
  If you fail:
   
   Spoiler 
  
  You are stunned for one round.
   
  
   
  
   
  
  
  Attack 2:
   
   Spoiler 
  
   (d20+31)[ 42 ]  vs Touch AC.
  
  Hit :
   
   Spoiler 
  
   (8d8+18)[ 53 ]  Bludgeoning damage
   [roll]1d6+1d8[/roll] Fire damage 
   (1d6)[ 1 ]  Acid Damage
   (1d6)[ 1 ]  Sonic damage.
  
  If this is the first successful attack of the round, make a DC20 will save.
  If you fail:
   
   Spoiler 
  
  You are stunned for one round.
   
  
   
  
   
  
  
  Attack 3:
   
   Spoiler 
  
   (d20+26)[ 41 ]  vs Touch AC.
  
  Hit :
   
   Spoiler 
  
   (8d8+18)[ 55 ]  Bludgeoning damage
   [roll]1d6+1d8[/roll] Fire damage 
   (1d6)[ 3 ]  Acid Damage
   (1d6)[ 6 ]  Sonic damage.
  
  If this is the first successful attack of the round, make a DC20 will save.
  If you fail:
   
   Spoiler 
  
  You are stunned for one round.
   
  
   
  
   
  
  
  Attack 4:
   
   Spoiler 
  
   (d20+21)[ 22 ]  vs Touch AC.
  
  Hit :
   
   Spoiler 
  
   (8d8+18)[ 49 ]  Bludgeoning damage
   [roll]1d6+1d8[/roll] Fire damage 
   (1d6)[ 2 ]  Acid Damage
   (1d6)[ 6 ]  Sonic damage.
  
  If this is the first successful attack of the round, make a DC20 will save.
  If you fail:
   
   Spoiler 
  
  You are stunned for one round.
   
  
   
  
   
  
   
conversations: ex cathedra:
conversations: human
conversations:  And the roller disappoints me.
  
  To clarify certain damage rolls:
  
   
   Spoiler 
  
  Attack 1:
   
   Spoiler 
  
   (1d6)[ 2 ]  Fire damage
   (1d8)[ 7 ]  Fire damage
   
  
  
  Attack 2:
   
   Spoiler 
  
   (1d6)[ 4 ]  Fire damage
   (1d8)[ 2 ]  Fire damage
   
  
  
  Attack 3:
   
   Spoiler 
  
   (1d6)[ 4 ]  Fire damage
   (1d8)[ 5 ]  Fire damage
   
  
  
  Attack 4:
   
   Spoiler 
  
   (1d6)[ 6 ]  Fire damage
   (1d8)[ 4 ]  Fire damage
   
  
   
conversations: ex cathedra:
conversations: human
conversations:  That's match.  And looking at your buff list, how the hell do you get 28 persisted spells?  I'd say that qualifies as "exploit".
  
  Via DMM, that is 196 turn attempts.
  
  Outside of DMM, that's a rather large amount of reduction, which, as a general rule of thumb, is heavily mitigated.
  
  In either case, any build with persistent AMF likely has no place in competetive play.  There's quite literally no reliable way to counter it.  While I do have characters that could beat it, largely due to the "excluding yourself from AMF" donut effect, there is no counter to an AMF.
  
  If you'd care to bring a different build to matches, that's one thing.
  
  But know that any build independently capable of persisting 28 spells is likely pushing the bounds of "exploit".
conversations: PhoenixRivers:
conversations: human
conversations:  Oh, it didn't qualify as an exploit until now, or atleast very soon. I'll show you the sheet. The persist effect is a quality of certain build choices that will be banned, very likely because of this character, I think. I'm not positive, but I may be the first person to use it here.
conversations: ex cathedra:
conversations: human
conversations:  Also, note that I should have seen you.
  
  AMF Suppresses effects in its area, but does not block Line of Effect, nor does it stop effects passing through it.  It's why donuting an AMF is typically very foolish.  I can cast a magic missile while on one side of an AMF, it will pass straight through, and hit a target on the other side (provided the target isn't subject to the AMF).
  
  Thus, I'd be able to detect anything within the AMF that was excluded from the effect.  You.
  
  For another example.  You listed true seeing as going out through the AMF.  The principle is identical.
conversations: PhoenixRivers:
conversations: human
conversations:  Originally Posted by aethernox 
   Oh, it didn't qualify as an exploit until now, or atleast very soon. I'll show you the sheet. The persist effect is a quality of certain build choices that will be banned, very likely because of this character, I think. I'm not positive, but I may be the first person to use it here. 
   
  
  Something does not need to be banned to be an exploit, Aethernox.
conversations: PhoenixRivers:
conversations: human
conversations:  That may be true.
  
  In regards towards AMFs:
  I really find it hard to say precisely how ESA'd Antimagic Fields work. It doesn't remove the AMF from my space, it simply excludes me from the effect. To what extent it does so is admittedly vague, and deserves further consideration.
  
  I'm sorry if you feel wronged, really.
conversations: ex cathedra:
conversations: human
conversations:  Originally Posted by aethernox 
   That may be true.
  
  In regards towards AMFs:
  I really find it hard to say precisely how ESA'd Antimagic Fields work. It doesn't remove the AMF from my space, it simply excludes me from the effect. To what extent it does so is admittedly vague, and deserves further consideration.
  
  I'm sorry if you feel wronged, really. 
   
  
  Exactly.  Touchsight doesn't need to see everything in your square to see YOU.
  
  If YOU are affected normally by magic, then all magic functions normally with respect to YOU.
  
  In other words, I'm not trying to see your square.  Your donut is smaller, but it's still a place in the AMF where magic functions.
  
  If it functions going out, it functions going in.  There's no vagueness there.  No consideration.  If you can be affected by blink and invisibility, you can be affected by True seeing and touchsight.
  
  There's not a "these 28 spells affect me, because I like that, and it says so... but those 4 spells don't."
  
  Either spells can pass through an AMF to a target which can be affected, or they can't.
  
  And by RAW, they can.
  
  That means that you'd have had an AoO for moving inward.
conversations: PhoenixRivers:
conversations: human
conversations:  RAW:  AMF does not block LoE given my understanding.  Thus, it does not properly block emanations.  So he can see you.  It's stupid, but until we rewrite AMF, which is.... distant....  This is how it works.
conversations: Doc Roc:
conversations: human
conversations:  I am unaffected by the AMF. It still effects the area around me and the area in which I reside, it simply doesn't affect me, specifically. The AMF still functions. 
  
  Tide disagrees, so be it. Apologies, PR, really.
conversations: ex cathedra:
conversations: human
conversations:  Which means AoO:
  
  Attack:  (1d20+31)[ 32 ] 
  If Hit, Stand Still:  Reflex Save DC 10+ (3d6+27)[ 37 ]  or stop as if all movement for the turn was used up.
  
  This attack ignores all magical miss chances, and 20% of nonmagical miss chances.
  
  Which means that due to the nat 1, everything still goes off.
conversations: PhoenixRivers:
conversations: human
conversations:  Attack 1-4, for your attacks
  
  Miss chance 1:  (1d100)[ 99 ] 
  Miss chance 2:  (1d100)[ 22 ] 
  Miss chance 3:  (1d100)[ 91 ] 
  Miss chance 4:  (1d100)[ 97 ] 
  
  1-20 misses.
conversations: PhoenixRivers:
conversations: human
conversations:  Poor luck on rolls, for both of us. Does this mean that my action was executed as planned?
conversations: ex cathedra:
conversations: human
conversations:  Yes.  But now, it was done legally.
  
  EDIT:  And the poorer luck was mine.  1 result that would have missed, and I got it.  DC 47 reflex saves are rather difficult to make.
conversations: PhoenixRivers:
conversations: human
conversations:  Were you attacking touch AC? If so, that is mostly true.
  
  Really, again, sorry for the confusion. Good game, PhoenixRivers.
conversations: ex cathedra:
conversations: human
conversations:  I was ignoring any concealment granted from magic, and any AC boost granted from magic.
  
  (Pierce Magical Concealment and Pierce Magical Protection)
conversations: PhoenixRivers:
conversations: human
conversations:  Pierce Magical Protection requires a single attack as part of a  standard action,  does it not?
conversations: ex cathedra: