<p>This is a matter of defintion and convention, not science.</p>
<p>By convention &quot;North pole&quot; is defined to be the pole that lies to north side of the solar system's &quot;invariable plane&quot; (that is the plane in which the planets orbit).  And so, by definition, its North Pole points the same way as Earth's North pole (roughly).</p>
<p>However axial tilt is defined relative to the positive pole, as defined by the right-hand-rule. For Earth and five other planets, the positive pole is the North pole.  For Venus and Uranus the positive pole is the South pole, so these planets have inclinations that are greater than 90 degrees.</p>
<p>But remember that these are <em>just</em> arbitrary choices of nomenclature.</p>
<p>See this <a href="https://www.astronomy.com/science/ask-astro-how-do-we-distinguish-north-and-south-poles-on-other-planets/" rel="noreferrer">explanation on astronomy.com</a></p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-11-28T14:32:10.840Z
And of course, for many planets there are also the magnetic poles, which may be close to the geographic poles (like on Earth), in completely different places (like Uranus), or inexistent (like on Venus), and may [flip around](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetic_reversal).
jcaron
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-11-29T15:37:06.877Z
Related discussion: https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/questions/10702/up-and-down-in-space/10726 and https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/questions/36330/how-do-we-define-up-and-down-in-space
Nilay Ghosh
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-11-30T04:41:42.373Z
Right up until it's not definition anymore: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_of_evil_(cosmology) and https://news.umich.edu/the-universe-may-have-been-born-spinning-according-to-new-findings-on-the-symmetry-of-the-cosmos/ ; the latter being the rare case of a ? headline not immediately being answered with no; but rather the headline written as it is because the implications are considered unacceptable.
Joshua
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-11-28T05:50:36.650Z
2023-11-28T05:50:36.650Z
James K
<p>This is a matter of convention and definition, not science (as @jamesk states).</p>
<p>It depends what &quot;north&quot; means. Presumably, you are not asking about magnetic north.</p>
<p>Generally, the celestial north pole is defined relative to a spinning body as the celestial  pole in the positive direction along it's axis of rotation, applying the right-hand rule as normal. Celestial poles are the points on the surface of the body intersected by its axis of rotation. This matches your description. Earth and Venus's celestial poles do not align relative to their respective surfaces, and change relative to each other as their relative orbital positions change. Celestial north is used for describing satellites in Earth orbit and is nearly the same as magnetic north, so is usually what &quot;north&quot; means without additional context.</p>
<p>Orbital poles are the surface points of an orbiting object which are intersected by a line through that object's center of gravity and perpendicular to its orbit. The north one is the one in the positive direction when applying the right-hand rule to the object's motion relative to the point it is orbiting (usually a larger object, but it works for two similarly-sized objects as well). This is essentially @jamesk's answer. Because Earth and Venus orbit in essentially the same plane, their orbital poles are essentially parallel. Orbital poles are non-intuitive as applied to a planet, because they sweep through a latitude over the course of about a day. They are much more convenient when discussing relative planetary positions though, and so can also be a natural answer to your question.</p>
<p>Wikipedia has a good summaries: <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_pole" rel="nofollow noreferrer">celestial</a> and <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_pole" rel="nofollow noreferrer">orbital</a>.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-11-29T10:24:38.730Z
*"Celestial poles are the points on the surface of the body intersected by its axis of rotation."* No, celestial poles and orbital poles are on the celestial sphere, as your Wikipedia links explain. Also see https://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cosmos/c/Celestial+Poles
PM 2Ring
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-11-30T23:29:29.703Z
@PM2Ring you are correct. However, the celestial sphere is a separate concept, which didn't seem necessary or helpful here.
fectin
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-11-29T01:39:54.080Z
2023-11-29T01:39:54.080Z
fectin
<p>I'm going to disagree with the other two answers in a particular way.</p>
<p>There is a way to take the &quot;roughness&quot; out of this question, and make this question more precise and scientific, not <em>just</em> definition and convention.</p>
<p>Namely, assuming by approximation that one has an inertial coordinate system for the solar system, the axis of each of Venus and Earth can be oriented in such a way that the spin around the axis and the orientation of the axis obey the right hand rule. One can then measure the angle between those two oriented axes. The numerical value of this angle will <em>not</em> depend on which inertial coordinate system you picked.</p>
<p>One could actually do this measurement: put a gyroscope in your spaceship with its axis oriented to have <span class="math-container">$0^\circ$</span> angle with the Earth's axis; then fly to Venus and observe the angle between your gyroscope axis and Venus' axis.</p>
<p>To say that Venus is &quot;upside down&quot; with respect to earth would then mean that this angle is <span class="math-container">$180^\circ$</span>, to within some acceptable error.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-11-30T23:58:10.313Z
But this then just gets right back to how to define "upside down." It does not seem obvious that "spinning the other direction" should imply "upside down." So, the answer is still just "It's a matter of convention."
reirab
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-11-29T19:53:52.513Z
2023-11-29T19:53:52.513Z
Lee Mosher
<p>I came here to ask the same question! Here's what I've learned in a brief googling (but I hope someone will expand on this answer's penultimate paragraph). There are at least three ways one might think about Venus's situation vis-a-vis Earth:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>One might say that Venus is <strong>tipped upside-down</strong> with respect to Earth: while the north poles of Earth and Mars and Jupiter are all on one side of the Solar System's <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invariable_plane" rel="nofollow noreferrer">invariable plane</a>, Venus's north pole is on the other side. The Sun rises in the east and sets in the west on Venus, just like on Earth.</p>
</li>
<li><p>One might say that Venus is &quot;right-way-up&quot; but simply <strong>rotates backwards</strong> with respect to Earth: that is, the Sun rises in the west and sets in the east.</p>
</li>
<li><p>One might say that the Sun always rises in the east, but on Venus <strong>east and west are exchanged</strong>: that is, whereas on Earth if you stand facing the north pole and turn to your right, you'll end up facing east (the direction of our sunrise), doing the same maneuver on Venus would cause you to face in a direction the Venusians would call &quot;west&quot; (i.e., the direction of their sunset).</p>
</li>
</ol>
<p>Convention #3 is obviously too arcane for Earthlings. That leaves #1 and #2.</p>
<p>Public-facing websites for both <a href="https://global.jaxa.jp/countdown/f17/overview/venus_e.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">JAXA</a> and <a href="https://science.nasa.gov/venus/venus-facts/" rel="nofollow noreferrer">NASA</a> use the &quot;rotates backward&quot; terminology — i.e., convention #2.</p>
<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_of_astronomical_bodies" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Wikipedia says:</a> &quot;The IAU defines the north pole of a planet or any of its satellites in the Solar System as the planetary pole that is in the same celestial hemisphere, relative to the invariable plane of the Solar System, as Earth's north pole&quot; — i.e., convention #2.</p>
<p>Another way we could tell the common convention is: NASA says (<a href="https://archive.org/details/NASA_NTRS_Archive_20110002751/" rel="nofollow noreferrer">source</a>, <a href="https://archive.org/details/NASA_NTRS_Archive_20100017196" rel="nofollow noreferrer">source</a>) that the north hemisphere of Venus contains the Snegurochka Planitia (V-1), Fortuna Tessera (V-2), Lachesis Tessera (V-18), and Sedna Planitia (V-19) quadrangles (and others); while the southern hemisphere contains the Fredegonde (V-57) quadrangle (and others). <a href="https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Venus_quadrangle_layout.gif" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Wikipedia has a map of all the numbers and names.</a> So now all we need to know is, is the Snegurochka Planitia located on the same side of the Solar System's invariable plane as Greenland? To put it another way: Can you see <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Polaris</a> from the Snegurochka Planitia?  (&quot;Yes&quot; answers imply convention #2; &quot;No&quot; answers imply convention #1.) Sadly, I haven't been able to find any concrete/specific answer to any of those questions.</p>
<p>But all the information I <em>have</em> found supports convention #2: We say that <strong>Venus rotates backward</strong> (so that its Sun rises in the west), and from its north pole you can see all our familiar northern-hemisphere constellations. (Modulo some awful cloud cover, of course!)</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-12-26T19:49:45.430Z
2024-12-26T19:49:45.430Z
Quuxplusone
<p>Is Venus upside down? Does its north point in the same direction as Earth's south? (roughly) Or does it just spin clockwise and its north points towards Earth's north? (also roughly) It seems that the right-hand rule would point Venus north in the same direction Earth's south (roughly) but some have said Venus is not upside down, which I believe would mean Venus' north points (rougly) in the same direction as Earth's north.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-11-28T15:56:02.600Z
This is probably way overkill for your question, but orientation data for all solar system planets, and many other objects are published by the IAU Working Group on Cartographic Coordinates and Rotational Elements.  The publication contains the data as well as an explanation on how they're defined.
 https://astropedia.astrogeology.usgs.gov/download/Docs/WGCCRE/WGCCRE2015reprint.pdf
Greg Miller
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-11-28T15:58:31.653Z
But doesn't Venus' North point up at some point and then point down as the seasons change, the same way the seasons change on Earth (but unlike Earth, the tilt is closer to 180 degrees on Venus)?
mchid
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-11-28T16:51:00.683Z
@mchid, that's not how the seasons change, the poles do not change (much) relative to the distant stars.  The poles do point towards and away from the Sun during different seasons, but this is due to the motion of the planet around the Sun, not the poles moving.  The diagram on this page may help https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/aboutseasons.html
Greg Miller
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-11-28T17:19:14.790Z
@GregMiller Okay, I thought it also tilted back and forth but I guess that only happens every 40,000 years and only by a couple of degrees. Thanks for the explanation.
mchid
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-11-29T15:29:25.503Z
Related discussion but for Mars: https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/questions/5907/how-were-the-designations-of-north-and-south-applied-to-the-hemispheres-of-m/5908
Nilay Ghosh
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-11-29T16:35:09.083Z
@mchid, you're not alone, that's what I was taught in school too, along with being able to stand an egg on its end on the equinox.  I hope things have improved since then.
Greg Miller
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-11-29T19:49:37.100Z
There is a way to take the "roughness" out of this question, and make this question more precise and scientific, not *just* definition and convention. Namely, assuming by approximation that one has an inertial coordinate system for the solar system, the axis of each of Venus and Earth can be oriented in such a way that the spin around the axis and the orientation of the axis obey the right hand rule. One can then measure the angle between those two oriented axes. The numerical value of this angle will *not* depend on which inertial coordinate system you picked.
Lee Mosher
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-11-29T20:56:49.317Z
There is no "roughness".  The question is clear and the definition is clear.  It isn't "the right hand rule" it is "the pole on the north side".  The North pole of Venus points towards somewhere near Draco, (close to the North pole of Earth). That is the definition that has been chosen, for better or for worse.
James K
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-11-30T01:37:55.430Z
It might but either way, where does the idea come from, please?
Robbie Goodwin
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-11-30T15:16:59.037Z
Is your question about semantics and definitions, or about what happened to Venus to make it like it is? It rotates opposite to Earth (etc) presumably because (a) it got knocked "upside down," or (b) it got knocked into rotating the opposite direction.
Tim Grant
<venus>
Is Venus' north towards Earth's south
Stephen
# Is Venus' north towards Earth's south

(Asked by: username_0 on 2023-11-28)

Is Venus upside down? Does its north point in the same direction as Earth's south? (roughly) Or does it just spin clockwise and its north points towards Earth's north? (also roughly) It seems that the right-hand rule would point Venus north in the same direction Earth's south (roughly) but some have said Venus is not upside down, which I believe would mean Venus' north points (rougly) in the same direction as Earth's north.

**Tags:** venus
> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: This is probably way overkill for your question, but orientation data for all solar system planets, and many other objects are published by the IAU Working Group on Cartographic Coordinates and Rotational Elements.  The publication contains the data as well as an explanation on how they're defined.  https://astropedia.astrogeology.usgs.gov/download/Docs/WGCCRE/WGCCRE2015reprint.pdf  
> **username_2**: But doesn't Venus' North point up at some point and then point down as the seasons change, the same way the seasons change on Earth (but unlike Earth, the tilt is closer to 180 degrees on Venus)?  
> **username_1**: @mchid, that's not how the seasons change, the poles do not change (much) relative to the distant stars.  The poles do point towards and away from the Sun during different seasons, but this is due to the motion of the planet around the Sun, not the poles moving.  The diagram on this page may help https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/aboutseasons.html  
> **username_2**: @GregMiller Okay, I thought it also tilted back and forth but I guess that only happens every 40,000 years and only by a couple of degrees. Thanks for the explanation.  
> **username_3**: Related discussion but for Mars: https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/questions/5907/how-were-the-designations-of-north-and-south-applied-to-the-hemispheres-of-m/5908  
> **username_1**: @mchid, you're not alone, that's what I was taught in school too, along with being able to stand an egg on its end on the equinox.  I hope things have improved since then.  
> **username_4**: There is a way to take the "roughness" out of this question, and make this question more precise and scientific, not *just* definition and convention. Namely, assuming by approximation that one has an inertial coordinate system for the solar system, the axis of each of Venus and Earth can be oriented in such a way that the spin around the axis and the orientation of the axis obey the right hand rule. One can then measure the angle between those two oriented axes. The numerical value of this angle will *not* depend on which inertial coordinate system you picked.  
> **username_5**: There is no "roughness".  The question is clear and the definition is clear.  It isn't "the right hand rule" it is "the pole on the north side".  The North pole of Venus points towards somewhere near Draco, (close to the North pole of Earth). That is the definition that has been chosen, for better or for worse.  
> **username_6**: It might but either way, where does the idea come from, please?  
> **username_7**: Is your question about semantics and definitions, or about what happened to Venus to make it like it is? It rotates opposite to Earth (etc) presumably because (a) it got knocked "upside down," or (b) it got knocked into rotating the opposite direction.  

---

## 4 answers

### Answer by username_5 on 2023-11-28. Score: 39

This is a matter of defintion and convention, not science.

By convention "North pole" is defined to be the pole that lies to north side of the solar system's "invariable plane" (that is the plane in which the planets orbit). And so, by definition, its North Pole points the same way as Earth's North pole (roughly).

However axial tilt is defined relative to the positive pole, as defined by the right-hand-rule. For Earth and five other planets, the positive pole is the North pole. For Venus and Uranus the positive pole is the South pole, so these planets have inclinations that are greater than 90 degrees.

But remember that these are *just* arbitrary choices of nomenclature.

See this [explanation on astronomy.com](https://www.astronomy.com/science/ask-astro-how-do-we-distinguish-north-and-south-poles-on-other-planets/)

> **Comments:**
> **username_8**: And of course, for many planets there are also the magnetic poles, which may be close to the geographic poles (like on Earth), in completely different places (like Uranus), or inexistent (like on Venus), and may [flip around](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetic_reversal).  
> **username_3**: Related discussion: https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/questions/10702/up-and-down-in-space/10726 and https://astronomy.stackexchange.com/questions/36330/how-do-we-define-up-and-down-in-space  
> **username_9**: Right up until it's not definition anymore: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_of_evil_(cosmology) and https://news.umich.edu/the-universe-may-have-been-born-spinning-according-to-new-findings-on-the-symmetry-of-the-cosmos/ ; the latter being the rare case of a ? headline not immediately being answered with no; but rather the headline written as it is because the implications are considered unacceptable.  

---

### Answer by username_10 on 2023-11-29. Score: 3

This is a matter of convention and definition, not science (as @jamesk states).

It depends what "north" means. Presumably, you are not asking about magnetic north.

Generally, the celestial north pole is defined relative to a spinning body as the celestial pole in the positive direction along it's axis of rotation, applying the right-hand rule as normal. Celestial poles are the points on the surface of the body intersected by its axis of rotation. This matches your description. Earth and Venus's celestial poles do not align relative to their respective surfaces, and change relative to each other as their relative orbital positions change. Celestial north is used for describing satellites in Earth orbit and is nearly the same as magnetic north, so is usually what "north" means without additional context.

Orbital poles are the surface points of an orbiting object which are intersected by a line through that object's center of gravity and perpendicular to its orbit. The north one is the one in the positive direction when applying the right-hand rule to the object's motion relative to the point it is orbiting (usually a larger object, but it works for two similarly-sized objects as well). This is essentially @jamesk's answer. Because Earth and Venus orbit in essentially the same plane, their orbital poles are essentially parallel. Orbital poles are non-intuitive as applied to a planet, because they sweep through a latitude over the course of about a day. They are much more convenient when discussing relative planetary positions though, and so can also be a natural answer to your question.

Wikipedia has a good summaries: [celestial](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celestial_pole) and [orbital](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_pole).

> **Comments:**
> **username_11**: *"Celestial poles are the points on the surface of the body intersected by its axis of rotation."* No, celestial poles and orbital poles are on the celestial sphere, as your Wikipedia links explain. Also see https://astronomy.swin.edu.au/cosmos/c/Celestial+Poles  
> **username_10**: @PM2Ring you are correct. However, the celestial sphere is a separate concept, which didn't seem necessary or helpful here.  

---

### Answer by username_4 on 2023-11-29. Score: 3

I'm going to disagree with the other two answers in a particular way.

There is a way to take the "roughness" out of this question, and make this question more precise and scientific, not *just* definition and convention.

Namely, assuming by approximation that one has an inertial coordinate system for the solar system, the axis of each of Venus and Earth can be oriented in such a way that the spin around the axis and the orientation of the axis obey the right hand rule. One can then measure the angle between those two oriented axes. The numerical value of this angle will *not* depend on which inertial coordinate system you picked.

One could actually do this measurement: put a gyroscope in your spaceship with its axis oriented to have $0^\circ$ angle with the Earth's axis; then fly to Venus and observe the angle between your gyroscope axis and Venus' axis.

To say that Venus is "upside down" with respect to earth would then mean that this angle is $180^\circ$, to within some acceptable error.

> **Comments:**
> **username_12**: But this then just gets right back to how to define "upside down." It does not seem obvious that "spinning the other direction" should imply "upside down." So, the answer is still just "It's a matter of convention."  

---

### Answer by username_13 on 2024-12-26. Score: 2

I came here to ask the same question! Here's what I've learned in a brief googling (but I hope someone will expand on this answer's penultimate paragraph). There are at least three ways one might think about Venus's situation vis-a-vis Earth:

1. One might say that Venus is **tipped upside-down** with respect to Earth: while the north poles of Earth and Mars and Jupiter are all on one side of the Solar System's [invariable plane](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invariable_plane), Venus's north pole is on the other side. The Sun rises in the east and sets in the west on Venus, just like on Earth.
2. One might say that Venus is "right-way-up" but simply **rotates backwards** with respect to Earth: that is, the Sun rises in the west and sets in the east.
3. One might say that the Sun always rises in the east, but on Venus **east and west are exchanged**: that is, whereas on Earth if you stand facing the north pole and turn to your right, you'll end up facing east (the direction of our sunrise), doing the same maneuver on Venus would cause you to face in a direction the Venusians would call "west" (i.e., the direction of their sunset).

Convention #3 is obviously too arcane for Earthlings. That leaves #1 and #2.

Public-facing websites for both [JAXA](https://global.jaxa.jp/countdown/f17/overview/venus_e.html) and [NASA](https://science.nasa.gov/venus/venus-facts/) use the "rotates backward" terminology — i.e., convention #2.

[Wikipedia says:](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles_of_astronomical_bodies) "The IAU defines the north pole of a planet or any of its satellites in the Solar System as the planetary pole that is in the same celestial hemisphere, relative to the invariable plane of the Solar System, as Earth's north pole" — i.e., convention #2.

Another way we could tell the common convention is: NASA says ([source](https://archive.org/details/NASA_NTRS_Archive_20110002751/), [source](https://archive.org/details/NASA_NTRS_Archive_20100017196)) that the north hemisphere of Venus contains the Snegurochka Planitia (V-1), Fortuna Tessera (V-2), Lachesis Tessera (V-18), and Sedna Planitia (V-19) quadrangles (and others); while the southern hemisphere contains the Fredegonde (V-57) quadrangle (and others). [Wikipedia has a map of all the numbers and names.](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Venus_quadrangle_layout.gif) So now all we need to know is, is the Snegurochka Planitia located on the same side of the Solar System's invariable plane as Greenland? To put it another way: Can you see [Polaris](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polaris) from the Snegurochka Planitia? ("Yes" answers imply convention #2; "No" answers imply convention #1.) Sadly, I haven't been able to find any concrete/specific answer to any of those questions.

But all the information I *have* found supports convention #2: We say that **Venus rotates backward** (so that its Sun rises in the west), and from its north pole you can see all our familiar northern-hemisphere constellations. (Modulo some awful cloud cover, of course!)


---

