Answers.Body: <p><strong>After having played with the system a bit more in response to Andreas' and Andy's comments. This answer is wrong.
  Considered deleting it- but keeping in place for the thread underneath</strong></p>
  <p><strong>The &quot;edit all contacts&quot; permission although the description says it includes permission to delete- does not include permission to delete.</strong></p>
  <p>Just played with our system (civi 5.47 in a D7 site)</p>
  <p>If you give a contact the &quot;CiviCRM: edit all contacts
  View, Edit and Delete ANY CONTACT in the CiviCRM database; Create and edit relationships, tags and other info about the contacts&quot; permission</p>
  <p>AND the CiviCRM: access deleted contacts permission</p>
  <p>They can delete non-trash contacts, and see them in the trash. But not have permission to delete the from trash.</p>
  <p>The Delete Contacts permission allows users to delete permanently from Trash.
  <a href="https://i.sstatic.net/7vBqi.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/7vBqi.png" alt="Screen cap of permission configuration, edit all AND access trash" /></a></p>
  <p>The problems this might cause are if you haven't allocated the &quot;edit all contacts&quot; permission to a user in order to allow ACL control over access to contacts.</p>
  <p>But if you're not restricting access to contacts via ACL, then the above settings should work fine.</p>
  <p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/6ATOk.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/6ATOk.png" alt="screen cap of deleted contact no delete permanently option" /></a></p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2022-05-30T12:48:43.887Z
Answers.Text: I hoped someone would come up with something like this so thanks for sharing this! However at least for me that DIDN'T work: When I set up permissions like you proposed on my test system this user cannot (soft) delete any contact then: There is no delete button in the contact view and no action from search results anymore (CiviCRM 5.49.3, WordPress 5.9.3). Have I overlooked something? Even if it worked it would'nt be a sufficient solution for the use cases I have in mind as then deduplication would not be possible: "CiviCRM: merge duplicate contacts" requires the delete contacts permission.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Andreas
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2022-05-31T17:14:44.593Z
Answers.Text: Didn't work for me either - 5.47.4
Answers.UserDisplayName: Andy Clark
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2022-06-01T09:39:49.953Z
Answers.Text: Yeah, you're both right. 
  
  Doesn't work for me either (Can't delete a contact with edit all contacts permission)
  
  Quite sure it used to work in the way I thought it did.
  
  Edit all, includes permission to delete
  
  What is now "Delete Contacts" used to be "Delete Permanently", a permission used in conjunction with access trash.
  
  This looks to me like a change at some point- but don't know when
Answers.UserDisplayName: Craig Almond
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2022-06-01T10:39:57.097Z
Answers.Text: A client was asking me exactly this recently..
Answers.UserDisplayName: Andy Clark
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2022-06-01T13:14:49.200Z
Answers.Text: Asked a question up on chattermost
  https://chat.civicrm.org/civicrm/pl/1cchwip3wpgembhp6iod4paw9o
  
  Will post back if anyone bites
Answers.UserDisplayName: Craig Almond
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2022-06-11T14:19:18.523Z
Answers.Text: Thanks to Craigs question on mattermost the idea came up to create a proposal to split up the delete permission – issue and discussion on GitLab: https://lab.civicrm.org/dev/core/-/issues/3520
Answers.UserDisplayName: Andreas
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2022-05-28T06:21:15.353Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2022-06-01T09:45:34.573Z
Answers.LastEditDate: 2022-06-01T09:45:34.573Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: Craig Almond
Body: <p>I have the impression that many CiviCRM users share this scenario: They would like to allow everyday users to delete contacts and they are happy about the fact, that in case of mistakes these can be restored from the trash bin (permission <em>CiviCRM: delete contacts</em>). However they also want to grant many of them access to the trash bin to undo deletions, solve deduplication issues etc. (permission CiviCRM: <em>access deleted contacts</em>). Now there's one third thing they'd want but <strong>cannot</strong> do: Limit the permission to (permanently) delete contacts in trash to a smaller group of users.</p>
  <p>Does anyone know a way to solve this scenario? Probably best would be to create one more permission <em>delete in trash</em>?</p>
  
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2022-05-27T15:48:02.240Z
Comments.Text: I thought there was a delete permanently permission for civi. Could be wrong.
  
  There is a "delete contacts" permission, and a delete permission under "edit all contacts". Do these interact differently with the access trash permission?
Comments.UserDisplayName: Craig Almond
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2022-05-30T12:50:56.853Z
Comments.Text: Good idea and thanks for trying out in your long answer below – I also tried this approach and for me it didn't work out.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Andreas
Tags: <contacts><permissions><duplicate-contacts>
Title: Allow deletion of contacts but not in trash?
ThreadText: # Allow deletion of contacts but not in trash?
  
  (Asked by: username_0 on 2022-05-27)
  
  I have the impression that many CiviCRM users share this scenario: They would like to allow everyday users to delete contacts and they are happy about the fact, that in case of mistakes these can be restored from the trash bin (permission *CiviCRM: delete contacts*). However they also want to grant many of them access to the trash bin to undo deletions, solve deduplication issues etc. (permission CiviCRM: *access deleted contacts*). Now there's one third thing they'd want but **cannot** do: Limit the permission to (permanently) delete contacts in trash to a smaller group of users.
  
  Does anyone know a way to solve this scenario? Probably best would be to create one more permission *delete in trash*?
  
  **Tags:** contacts, permissions, duplicate-contacts
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_1**: I thought there was a delete permanently permission for civi. Could be wrong.  There is a "delete contacts" permission, and a delete permission under "edit all contacts". Do these interact differently with the access trash permission?  
  > **username_0**: Good idea and thanks for trying out in your long answer below – I also tried this approach and for me it didn't work out.  
  
  ---
  
  ## 1 answers
  
  ### Answer by username_1 on 2022-05-28. Score: 1
  
  **After having played with the system a bit more in response to username_0' and Andy's comments. This answer is wrong.
  Considered deleting it- but keeping in place for the thread underneath**
  
  **The "edit all contacts" permission although the description says it includes permission to delete- does not include permission to delete.**
  
  Just played with our system (civi 5.47 in a D7 site)
  
  If you give a contact the "CiviCRM: edit all contacts
  View, Edit and Delete ANY CONTACT in the CiviCRM database; Create and edit relationships, tags and other info about the contacts" permission
  
  AND the CiviCRM: access deleted contacts permission
  
  They can delete non-trash contacts, and see them in the trash. But not have permission to delete the from trash.
  
  The Delete Contacts permission allows users to delete permanently from Trash.
  [![Screen cap of permission configuration, edit all AND access trash](https://i.sstatic.net/7vBqi.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/7vBqi.png)
  
  The problems this might cause are if you haven't allocated the "edit all contacts" permission to a user in order to allow ACL control over access to contacts.
  
  But if you're not restricting access to contacts via ACL, then the above settings should work fine.
  
  [![screen cap of deleted contact no delete permanently option](https://i.sstatic.net/6ATOk.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/6ATOk.png)
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_0**: I hoped someone would come up with something like this so thanks for sharing this! However at least for me that DIDN'T work: When I set up permissions like you proposed on my test system this user cannot (soft) delete any contact then: There is no delete button in the contact view and no action from search results anymore (CiviCRM 5.49.3, WordPress 5.9.3). Have I overlooked something? Even if it worked it would'nt be a sufficient solution for the use cases I have in mind as then deduplication would not be possible: "CiviCRM: merge duplicate contacts" requires the delete contacts permission.  
  > **username_2**: Didn't work for me either - 5.47.4  
  > **username_1**: Yeah, you're both right.   Doesn't work for me either (Can't delete a contact with edit all contacts permission)  Quite sure it used to work in the way I thought it did.  Edit all, includes permission to delete  What is now "Delete Contacts" used to be "Delete Permanently", a permission used in conjunction with access trash.  This looks to me like a change at some point- but don't know when  
  > **username_2**: A client was asking me exactly this recently..  
  > **username_1**: Asked a question up on chattermost https://chat.civicrm.org/civicrm/pl/1cchwip3wpgembhp6iod4paw9o  Will post back if anyone bites  
  > **username_0**: Thanks to Craigs question on mattermost the idea came up to create a proposal to split up the delete permission – issue and discussion on GitLab: https://lab.civicrm.org/dev/core/-/issues/3520  
  
  ---
  
  