Answers.Body: <p>The following starting position is a win in 123 (according to the software I am using):</p>
  
  <pre><code>1. setup S/cel/---/---/CGL/eG
  1. show board
    ABC 
   +---+
  1|cel| e
  2|   |
  3|   |
  4|CGL| *G
   +---+
  1. show lines
  Gb4-b3 : #123  (100.00%)
  G  *c3 : 0     ( 0.00%)
  G  *b3 : 0     ( 0.00%)
  G  *a3 : 0     ( 0.00%)
  Ca4-a3 : #-102 ( 0.00%)
  Lc4-c3 : #-44  ( 0.00%)
  Lc4-b3 : #-44  ( 0.00%)
  G  *b2 : #-20  ( 0.00%)
  G  *c2 : #-16  ( 0.00%)
  G  *a2 : #-16  ( 0.00%)
  </code></pre>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2020-11-20T13:23:31.620Z
Answers.Text: That position has unequal material?
Answers.UserDisplayName: wotnotv
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2020-11-23T08:12:34.660Z
Answers.Text: @wotnotv, one side has 2 elephants and the other 2 giraffes, so in that respect you're correct. In the normal course of the game these two pieces are swapped for eachother all the time, so they are about as equal in utility as can be. This very position shows that the difference is less than the positional difference in the normal starting position.
Answers.UserDisplayName: hkBst
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-05-23T09:06:31.217Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2019-05-23T09:06:31.217Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: hkBst
Answers.Body: <p>The standard dobutsu position gives a win for the second player. It is a well known concept of <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zugzwang#Tr%C3%A9buchet" rel="nofollow noreferrer">zugzwang</a> that emerges out of forced lines.</p>
  <p>Running <a href="https://www.pychess.org/analysis/dobutsu" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Fairy Stockfish</a> (on the pychess variants site analysis section) in the normal dobutsu backrank configuration gives a -9.8 evaluation after running it on a bigger depth.</p>
  <p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/iSTLP.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/iSTLP.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2020-11-17T11:06:29.417Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2020-11-17T11:06:29.417Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: abunickabhi
Body: <p>In <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C5%8Dbutsu_shogi" rel="nofollow noreferrer">dobutsu shogi</a>, the usual starting position is a loss for the beginning player in (at most) 78 turns (from first move until (and including) lion capture or ascension).</p>
  
  <p>But are there perhaps other (starting) positions that are farther from win/loss than the standard one? I would be most interested in positions with all (starting position) or most of the pieces on the board and on the back rank.</p>
  
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2019-01-18T15:31:57.123Z
Comments.Text: If you can argue this is a chess variant, then the question should be reopened, in my opinion.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Dag Oskar Madsen
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2019-01-18T15:54:29.317Z
Comments.Text: @DagOskarMadsen, my reasoning is that it is a small-size variant of Japanese chess with very few rules changes. Therefore it must itself be a chess variant IMO, but I do not know if that was the reason this question was closed. Although it seems, it has already been reopened. Thanks?
Comments.UserDisplayName: hkBst
Tags: <chess-variants><shogi>
Title: Are there starting positions in dobutsu shogi that are farther from a win/loss than the standard one?
ThreadText: # Are there starting positions in dobutsu shogi that are farther from a win/loss than the standard one?
  
  (Asked by: username_0 on 2019-01-13)
  
  In [dobutsu shogi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%C5%8Dbutsu_shogi), the usual starting position is a loss for the beginning player in (at most) 78 turns (from first move until (and including) lion capture or ascension).
  
  But are there perhaps other (starting) positions that are farther from win/loss than the standard one? I would be most interested in positions with all (starting position) or most of the pieces on the board and on the back rank.
  
  **Tags:** chess-variants, shogi
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_1**: If you can argue this is a chess variant, then the question should be reopened, in my opinion.  
  > **username_0**: @username_1, my reasoning is that it is a small-size variant of Japanese chess with very few rules changes. Therefore it must itself be a chess variant IMO, but I do not know if that was the reason this question was closed. Although it seems, it has already been reopened. Thanks?  
  
  ---
  
  ## 2 answers
  
  ### Answer by username_0 on 2019-05-23. Score: 2
  
  The following starting position is a win in 123 (according to the software I am using):
  
  ```
  1. setup S/cel/---/---/CGL/eG
  1. show board
    ABC 
   +---+
  1|cel| e
  2|   |
  3|   |
  4|CGL| *G
   +---+
  1. show lines
  Gb4-b3 : #123  (100.00%)
  G  *c3 : 0     ( 0.00%)
  G  *b3 : 0     ( 0.00%)
  G  *a3 : 0     ( 0.00%)
  Ca4-a3 : #-102 ( 0.00%)
  Lc4-c3 : #-44  ( 0.00%)
  Lc4-b3 : #-44  ( 0.00%)
  G  *b2 : #-20  ( 0.00%)
  G  *c2 : #-16  ( 0.00%)
  G  *a2 : #-16  ( 0.00%)
  
  ```
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_2**: That position has unequal material?  
  > **username_0**: @username_2, one side has 2 elephants and the other 2 giraffes, so in that respect you're correct. In the normal course of the game these two pieces are swapped for eachother all the time, so they are about as equal in utility as can be. This very position shows that the difference is less than the positional difference in the normal starting position.  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_3 on 2020-11-17. Score: 1
  
  The standard dobutsu position gives a win for the second player. It is a well known concept of [zugzwang](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zugzwang#Tr%C3%A9buchet) that emerges out of forced lines.
  
  Running [Fairy Stockfish](https://www.pychess.org/analysis/dobutsu) (on the pychess variants site analysis section) in the normal dobutsu backrank configuration gives a -9.8 evaluation after running it on a bigger depth.
  
  [![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/iSTLP.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/iSTLP.png)
  
  
  ---
  
  