Answers.Body: <p>In the specific position you show, I can well believe that the classical army
  has an advantage: I've read that a second Queen tends to be redundant
  and thus worth less than the first, so I'd expect a third and fourth
  Queen to continue the pattern, assuming that the opponent's King
  is not in immediate danger.  But if you can array your fantasy-draft
  army anywhere you want in the first few rows you can win by force
  even with fewer than 39 points:</p>
  
  <pre><code>[FEN "q3qr1k/b4q2/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w - - 0 0"]
  
  1. Nf3 Qaxf3
  2. gxf3 Qxf3
  3. d4 Qxf2+
  4. Kd2 Qee3#
  </code></pre>
  
  <p>It even works with Re8 instead of the Qe8 
  (though the mate takes a few moves longer).</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2017-08-08T16:42:41.423Z
Answers.Text: 1 f3 lasts a bit longer; if Black doesn't have an immediately forced mate
    after Bxg1 or Qxf3 or Qf4 then add a Bd8 to the initial position
    to make sure (1 f3 Qaxf3 2 Nxf3 Qxf3 3 gxf3 Bh4#).
Answers.UserDisplayName: Noam D. Elkies
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2017-08-08T17:17:17.433Z
Answers.Text: Thanks.  This variant doesn't allow you to place major pieces (non-pawns) in anything but the back row for that reason.  Consequently it takes at least a turn or two to setup for this.  During that time, White would have to form a sufficient defense.
Answers.UserDisplayName: J Smith
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2017-08-08T16:37:15.873Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2017-08-08T19:48:58.337Z
Answers.LastEditDate: 2017-08-08T19:48:58.337Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: Noam D. Elkies
Answers.Body: <p>A clarifying comment says "Pawns can be placed in any of the first 3 rows. 
  Any other piece must be placed in the back row. White moves first unless 
  black used less points to construct their army."  So the position I gave
  earlier doesn't work, but since Black is allowed to move first with fewer than
  39 points there's still a forced win:</p>
  
  <pre><code>[FEN "1b1qkqq1/8/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR b - - 0 0"]
  
  1. Qxf2+ Kxf2 
  2. Qh4+ g3 
  3. Qgxg3+ hxg3 
  4. Qxg3#
  </code></pre>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2017-08-08T18:50:29.733Z
Answers.Text: That's really interesting!  Thanks for sharing.
Answers.UserDisplayName: J Smith
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2017-08-08T19:01:12.840Z
Answers.Text: I imagine knowing this this will lead my club to start the classic army setup with a few pawns already pushed to mitigate this.  But I guess that's the nature of asymmetrical build-your-own army games.
Answers.UserDisplayName: J Smith
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2017-08-08T18:17:56.850Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2017-08-08T18:17:56.850Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: Noam D. Elkies
Body: <p>My club has recently been playing the variant <a href="http://etchessera.com" rel="noreferrer">Etchessera</a>.  For those unfamiliar, this variant allows you to build an army consisting of a King and up to 39 points worth of pieces according to the following system:</p>
  
  <ul>
  <li>Pawn - 1pt</li>
  <li>Knight - 3pt</li>
  <li>Bishop - 3pt</li>
  <li>Rook   - 5pt</li>
  <li>Queen  - 9pt</li>
  </ul>
  
  <p>While I realize that the relative point values are often listed differently, and can change based upon what other pieces remain, we were wondering if there should be a clear winner between the standard chess army and one consisting of 4 queens and 3 pawns.  </p>
  
  <p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/zs0b5.png" rel="noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/zs0b5.png" alt="enter image description here"></a></p>
  
  <p>Through our own games, the match-up appears to still be about equal provided the classic army plays defensive openings and forces a few trades.  However, my club is a very small sample size and I was looking to see if this has ever been explored elsewhere.  </p>
  
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2017-08-08T16:15:35.377Z
Comments.Text: How do you decide the initial position of the nonstandard army?  Who moves first?
Comments.UserDisplayName: Noam D. Elkies
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2017-08-08T17:19:19.863Z
Comments.Text: Pawns can be placed in any of the first 3 rows.  Any other piece must be placed in the back row.  White moves first unless black used less points to construct their army.
Comments.UserDisplayName: J Smith
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2017-08-08T20:29:33.027Z
Comments.Text: pawn on first row OK?  What's the rule on double-move (or even triple-move) privileges?
Comments.UserDisplayName: Noam D. Elkies
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2017-08-08T20:50:00.853Z
Comments.Text: The complete rules can be found at http://etchessera.com/rules.html  While it doesn't explicitly say, we've interpreted them to read that it is possible to place pawns in the first row.  Also, we understand that a pawn can move two squares on its first move from any location.  Triple moving is not allowed.
Comments.UserDisplayName: J Smith
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2017-08-08T21:36:09.470Z
Comments.Text: Thanks.  Seems that you're playing a saner version of what's
  on that website, only the standard six chessmen.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Noam D. Elkies
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2020-05-05T21:22:15.100Z
Comments.Text: Right, you could only use a max of 7 Knights, since you would need room for the King.
Comments.UserDisplayName: J Smith
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2020-03-05T11:03:57.267Z
Comments.Text: That it means that I cannot choose to start with, say 13 knights, because there wouldn't be enough spots on the back rank to place them ? (I like knights...)
Comments.UserDisplayName: Evargalo
Tags: <chess-variants><point-value>
Title: (4 Queens + 3 Pawns) vs (Entire Standard Army)
ThreadText: # (4 Queens + 3 Pawns) vs (Entire Standard Army)
  
  (Asked by: username_0 on 2017-08-08)
  
  My club has recently been playing the variant [Etchessera](http://etchessera.com). For those unfamiliar, this variant allows you to build an army consisting of a King and up to 39 points worth of pieces according to the following system:
  
  * Pawn - 1pt
  * Knight - 3pt
  * Bishop - 3pt
  * Rook - 5pt
  * Queen - 9pt
  
  While I realize that the relative point values are often listed differently, and can change based upon what other pieces remain, we were wondering if there should be a clear winner between the standard chess army and one consisting of 4 queens and 3 pawns.
  
  [![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/zs0b5.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/zs0b5.png)
  
  Through our own games, the match-up appears to still be about equal provided the classic army plays defensive openings and forces a few trades. However, my club is a very small sample size and I was looking to see if this has ever been explored elsewhere.
  
  **Tags:** chess-variants, point-value
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_1**: How do you decide the initial position of the nonstandard army?  Who moves first?  
  > **username_0**: Pawns can be placed in any of the first 3 rows.  Any other piece must be placed in the back row.  White moves first unless black used less points to construct their army.  
  > **username_1**: pawn on first row OK?  What's the rule on double-move (or even triple-move) privileges?  
  > **username_0**: The complete rules can be found at http://etchessera.com/rules.html  While it doesn't explicitly say, we've interpreted them to read that it is possible to place pawns in the first row.  Also, we understand that a pawn can move two squares on its first move from any location.  Triple moving is not allowed.  
  > **username_1**: Thanks.  Seems that you're playing a saner version of what's on that website, only the standard six chessmen.  
  > **username_2**: That it means that I cannot choose to start with, say 13 knights, because there wouldn't be enough spots on the back rank to place them ? (I like knights...)  
  > **username_0**: Right, you could only use a max of 7 Knights, since you would need room for the King.  
  
  ---
  
  ## 2 answers
  
  ### Answer by username_1 on 2017-08-08. Score: 9 | Accepted answer
  
  A clarifying comment says "Pawns can be placed in any of the first 3 rows.
  Any other piece must be placed in the back row. White moves first unless
  black used less points to construct their army." So the position I gave
  earlier doesn't work, but since Black is allowed to move first with fewer than
  39 points there's still a forced win:
  
  ```
  [FEN "1b1qkqq1/8/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR b - - 0 0"]
  
  1. Qxf2+ Kxf2 
  2. Qh4+ g3 
  3. Qgxg3+ hxg3 
  4. Qxg3#
  
  ```
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_0**: That's really interesting!  Thanks for sharing.  
  > **username_0**: I imagine knowing this this will lead my club to start the classic army setup with a few pawns already pushed to mitigate this.  But I guess that's the nature of asymmetrical build-your-own army games.  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_1 on 2017-08-08. Score: 0
  
  In the specific position you show, I can well believe that the classical army
  has an advantage: I've read that a second Queen tends to be redundant
  and thus worth less than the first, so I'd expect a third and fourth
  Queen to continue the pattern, assuming that the opponent's King
  is not in immediate danger. But if you can array your fantasy-draft
  army anywhere you want in the first few rows you can win by force
  even with fewer than 39 points:
  
  ```
  [FEN "q3qr1k/b4q2/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w - - 0 0"]
  
  1. Nf3 Qaxf3
  2. gxf3 Qxf3
  3. d4 Qxf2+
  4. Kd2 Qee3#
  
  ```
  
  It even works with Re8 instead of the Qe8
  (though the mate takes a few moves longer).
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_1**: 1 f3 lasts a bit longer; if Black doesn't have an immediately forced mate   after Bxg1 or Qxf3 or Qf4 then add a Bd8 to the initial position   to make sure (1 f3 Qaxf3 2 Nxf3 Qxf3 3 gxf3 Bh4#).  
  > **username_0**: Thanks.  This variant doesn't allow you to place major pieces (non-pawns) in anything but the back row for that reason.  Consequently it takes at least a turn or two to setup for this.  During that time, White would have to form a sufficient defense.  
  
  ---
  
  