Answers.Body: <p>Yes, it is playable in my opinion. The starting position on the diagram may not be reflective of Black's best chances in the Ulvestad because it assumes that 6...Nd4 it best, while it scores much worse than 6...h6. After 6...h6 White scores only 47% according to ChessBase, I don't think you can find many opening lines as playable for Black as this (we're only on move 6).</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2016-07-20T15:12:43.620Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2020-03-03T19:14:14.373Z
Answers.LastEditDate: 2020-03-03T19:14:14.373Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: Joe
Answers.Body: <p>First, I think this is an excellent question for this forum, so thanks for posting it. I'm going to use a mix of computer analysis with stockfish and crafty, and the chesstempo game database to respond.</p>
  
  <p>Your main question: Is Ulvestad playable for black? I think is a definite yes. There are many options unexplored still, but I think even in your specific game black can at least draw with <code>20. ... f5</code> to counter <code>20. Bd3</code>, and it's not a picnic for white, either--they have to play fairly precisely to keep it even. I'll get back to this at the end.</p>
  
  <p>To avoid making this overly long (I can tell it's going to be long!), I'll just point out some of the unexplored options you don't cover in the question. For example, move 8 isn't set in stone with 8. cxd4, there are also:</p>
  
  <pre><code>8. Ne4
  8. Nxf7
  8. h4
  </code></pre>
  
  <p>But we'll continue down your line with <code>8. cxd4 Qxg5 9. Bxb5+ Kd8</code>, after which the options for white look like:</p>
  
  <pre><code>10. O-O Rb8 11. Bc6 exd4 12. d3 Qf5 13. Re1 Nf6 14. Nd2 Qxd3 ... (+0.80 D25 - stockfish)
  10. Qf3 exd4 11. Bc6 Nb4 12. Bxa8 Nc2+ 13. Kd1 Bg4 14. Kxc2 Qc5+ ... (+0.56 D25 - stockfish)
  </code></pre>
  
  <p>After <code>8. cxd4 Qxg5 9. Bxb5+ Kd8 10. O-O</code> there are another few potential options:</p>
  
  <p><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/NzxXf.png" alt="enter image description here"></p>
  
  <pre><code>10. ... exd4 11. Bc6 Rb8 12. d3 Qf5 13. Re1 Nf6 14. Nd2 Qxd3 15. Nb3 Qxd1 ...(+0.60 D29 - stockfish)
  10. ... Rb8 11. Bc6 exd4 12. d3 Qf5 13. Re1 Nf6 14. Nd2 Qxd3 15. Nb3 Qxd1 ...(+0.60 D29 - stockfish) (transposes to above)
  10. ... Bb7 11. Qf3 exd4 12. d3 Qe5 13. Nd2 Bd6 14. g3 a6 15. Ba4 Qf6 ... (+0.72 D29 - stockfish)
  10. ... Qg6 11. dxe5 Rb8 12. Nc3 Nf4 13. Qf3 Bb7 14. Qg3 Nxg2 15. d4 Nh4 ...(+.80 D29 - stockfish)
  10. ... Bg4 11. Qb3 Nf4 12. dxe5 Bd7 13. Qg3 Qxg3 14. fxg3 Ng6 15. Nc3 Bc5+ ...(+.84 D29 - stockfish) 
  </code></pre>
  
  <p>Again, we'll go with your line, <code>8. cxd4 Qxg5 9. Bxb5+ Kd8 10. O-O Bb7 11. Qf3</code>, to which there are a few ideas possibly worth looking deeper at:</p>
  
  <p><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/BsYWQ.png" alt="enter image description here"></p>
  
  <pre><code>11. ... Rb8 12. dxe5 Ne3 13. Qh3 Qxg2+ 14. Qxg2 Nxg2 15. d4 Be7 16. Be2 Nh4 (+0.72 D26 - stockfish)
  11. ... exd4 12. Re1 Be7 13. d3 Qf6 14. Nd2 Rb8 15. Bc4 Nb6 16. Qxf6 Bxf6 (+0.76 D26 - stockfish)
  11. ... Qf4 12. Qxf4 exf4 13. Nc3 Nb4 14. Rb1 Bd6 15. d3 Nc2 16. d5 Nd4 (+1.01 D26 - stockfish)
  </code></pre>
  
  <p>Again we'll go with your line, <code>8. cxd4 Qxg5 9. Bxb5+ Kd8 10. O-O Bb7 11. Qf3 Rb8 12. dxe5 Ne3 13. Qh3 Qxg2 14. Qxg2 Nxg2 15. d4</code>, and again black has several responses to explore:</p>
  
  <p><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/yRJcL.png" alt="enter image description here"></p>
  
  <pre><code>15. ... Be7 16. f4 Nh4 17. Nc3 Nf3+ 18. Kf2 Nxd4 19. Rd1 c5 20. Be3 Bf3 (+0.84 D26 - stockfish)
  15. ... f6 16. Be2 Nh4 17. f4 Bb4 18. Nd2 Nf5 19. Nc4 Ke8 20. Rd1 fxe5 (+0.92 D26 - stockfish)
  15. ... Nh4 16. Bg5+ Be7 17. Bxh4 Bxh4 18. Nc3 Bf3 19. Rab1 Rb6 20. Bd3 Kc8 (+1.01 D25 - stockfish)
  15. ... Kc8 16. f4 Nh4 17. Kf2 c5 18. Be3 Bg2 19. Nc3 Bxf1 20. Rxf1 cxd4 (+1.05 D25 - stockfish)
  </code></pre>
  
  <p>We're almost to the line you left us, but you can see you probably had several other possibilities. We'll continue with the line: <code>8. cxd4 Qxg5 9. Bxb5+ Kd8 10. O-O Bb7 11. Qf3 Rb8 12. dxe5 Ne3 13. Qh3 Qxg2 14. Qxg2 Nxg2 15. d4 Nh5 16. Bg5+ Be7 17. Bxh4 Bxh4 18. Nc3 Bf3 19. b3 Rb6 20. Bd3</code>, which presents us with an interesting position. </p>
  
  <p><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/HHcLP.png" alt="enter image description here"></p>
  
  <p>It looks like my f5 idea was pretty good, as it seems to be a solid draw for black if both sides play perfectly (as far as I can tell). Interestingly enough, computers don't tend to see f5 until they get 30 deep or so. The goal being to get the h8 rook involved ASAP. If white slips up, they can be in for some pain.</p>
  
  <p>There are two reasonable responses to <code>20. ... f5</code>:</p>
  
  <pre><code>21. Ne2 Rg6+ 22. Ng3 Rf8 23. Rae1 (+0.32 D28 - stockfish)
  21. Bxf5 Rc6 22. Nd1 Rf8 23. Ne3 Bg5 24. Bg4 Rg6 25. Bxf3 Bxe3+ 26. Kh1 Bxd4 (+0.00 D28 - stockfish)
  </code></pre>
  
  <p>The rest look like probable bad news:</p>
  
  <pre><code>21. e6 Rxe6 22. Bxf5 Rc6 23. Rac1 Rf8 24. Bd3 Bg5 25. Rc2 Rf4 (-0.92 D28 - stockfish)
  21. exf6 gxf6 22. Bc4 f5 23. Rfe1 Rg6+ 24. Kf1 Rg2 25. Re3 Rxf2+ (-1.53 D28 - stockfish)
  21. Rfe1 Rg6+ 22. Kf1 Rg2 23. Re3 Rxf2+ 24. Kg1 f4 25. Rxf3 Rxf3 (-2.14 D28 - stockfish)
  21. Rfd1 Rg6+ 22. Kf1 Rg2 23. Rd2 Rxh2 24. Ke1 Bg5 25. Rdd1 c6 (-2.70 D28 - stockfish)
  </code></pre>
  
  <p>I let stockfish think about this position for several hours, and when it gets to about 30-31 deep, the score for both of the best moves dwindles to 0.00 or 0.08 (which indicates a likely draw). I played out several scenarios which involved different colored bishops and rooks that had easily defended pawns, but that couldn't obviously make progress. Or Rook+Knight vs Rook+Bishop. There were a few times that black had a bishop traded for a couple of pawns, but couldn't do anything with it. Never got to a 6 piece EGTB position--always too many pawns leftover. If someone can find a win for white with 20. ... f5, I'd like to see it!</p>
  
  <p><strong>Update 6-20-2012</strong></p>
  
  <p><code>21. Bxf5</code> seems to be a bad choice after <code>21. ... Rc6 22. Rfc1 Rf8</code>.</p>
  
  <p><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/t3SXO.png" alt="enter image description here"></p>
  
  <p>I haven't looked at other moves other than <code>22. Rfc1</code> deeply yet (such as <code>22. Rac1</code> and <code>22. Nd1</code>), but white doesn't have many good options at <code>23.</code> <code>23. Bxh7</code> looks like it has potential, but after <code>23. ... g6</code> the bishop becomes hard to use. <code>23. Bd3</code> is in second place so far, <code>23. Bd4</code> is in third, and <code>23. Bb1</code> is in fourth, but they all score negative with 30 depth.</p>
  
  <p><code>21. Ne2</code> looks like it offers white a few chances for draw by repetition several moves in. This line, for example (I need to check some of the others for black to see if there's something better than <code>21. ... Rg6+</code>, but that seems unlikely): <code>21. ... Rg6+ 22. Ng3 Rg5 23. Rac1 f4 24. Rc3 Rf8 25. Rfc1 c6 26. Bb5 fxg3 27. hxg3 Bxg3 28. fxg3 Rxg3+ 29. Kh2 Rg2+ 30. Kh3 Rg6 31.Bxc6 Rh6+ 32.Kg3 Rg6+ 33.Kh3</code> ends with a pretty straightforward draw by repetition drawish looking position:</p>
  
  <p><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/4nsC7.png" alt="enter image description here"></p>
  
  <p>Another update: <code>21. Ne2 Rg6+ 22. Ng3 f4 23. Rfc1 Rg5 24. Rc3 Bb7</code> looks promising for black.</p>
  
  <p>Update: Here is some analysis, if anyone is interested: <a href="http://mongochess.skeweredrook.com/ulvestad-variation" rel="nofollow noreferrer">http://mongochess.skeweredrook.com/ulvestad-variation</a></p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2012-06-02T14:17:11.907Z
Answers.Text: One's skill must be taken into account when analyzing.  It's one thing to objectively state, "This move is bad" or "this move is best" which practically speaking Stockfish is doing (I'd wager none of us can defeat it.)  However, the OP's question is "Is this playable?"  So, assuming we're not GMs, does the variation create pitfalls for either side which produce an unbalanced and high chance of one side coming out ahead?
Answers.UserDisplayName: Tony Ennis
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2012-06-02T14:21:05.910Z
Answers.Text: Consider a variation where if white plays like an 1800, he wins, but if black plays like a 2200, he can't lose.  An "A" or "B" player might like these odds, as white.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Tony Ennis
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2012-06-02T14:21:44.897Z
Answers.Text: First, I don't think any openings produce "an unbalanced and high chance of one side coming out ahead", otherwise everyone would play them (or avoid them). The goals of my analysis were to point out that there were several other possible moves to look at. In fact, going through it, black seemed to have more choices than white, who had to pick from 1 good move most of the time.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Eve Freeman
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2012-06-02T14:23:18.203Z
Answers.Text: No argument and I'm not criticizing your posting (I +1'ed it earlier, in fact)  I'm just pointing out that "playable" depends on the skill levels of the player.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Tony Ennis
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2012-06-02T14:29:22.297Z
Answers.Text: I usually play the Na5 variation instead of b5, but I may give this one a go after spending a few hours looking at it. I don't think it requires GM abilities to play, especially if you've looked at these variations in advance (which is something you'd do if you really want to prepare for this opening, or any opening for that matter).
Answers.UserDisplayName: Eve Freeman
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2012-06-02T15:35:04.213Z
Answers.Text: @WesFreeman great analysis.  My slow OTB games in this line have all been as white, and my analysis has mostly been from the white perspective.  On moves 10 and 11, I believe that black's play is forced.  For example, 10...Rb8 11.Bc6! and black has no counterplay.  And 11...exd4 12.d3! is very good for white as in [Esserman-Nikolayev](http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1609659).  After 20...f5!, I think the critical line is 21.Bxf5 Rc6 22.Rfc1 and it is most likely a draw, though white will have the edge with the better pawn structure.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Andrew
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2012-06-11T17:12:09.833Z
Answers.Text: Inspired partly by this question, I've built a simple analysis system that feeds moves into stockfish and stores the results in mongodb at increasing depths, indexed by board position (FEN). I'll see how many computers I can get churning out results, and eventually build some sort of visualization for them. 20. ... f5! is definitely a (!), as it ranks very low initially, and climbs up the ranks to the only reasonable move after a depth of 25 or so.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Eve Freeman
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2012-06-21T19:05:24.337Z
Answers.Text: @Andrew According to my analysis, which is still ongoing, it looks like `21. Bxf5` ends up likely losing for white, where `21. Ne2` gives white a chance to draw. I've by no means exhausted the search space... but three computers are crunching away.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Eve Freeman
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2012-06-21T19:12:51.797Z
Answers.Text: That sounds awesome, care to share any specific lines (or edit them into the answer, etc)?
Answers.UserDisplayName: Andrew
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2012-06-21T20:05:41.497Z
Answers.Text: I put a few lines in. I'd like to build a visualization of sorts eventually, which will show depths and scores and best lines, and let you drill in to pre-analyzed positions.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Eve Freeman
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2012-07-01T04:51:58.837Z
Answers.Text: I added an update with what will hopefully a permanent link to my work in progress.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Eve Freeman
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2012-06-02T10:25:03.113Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2012-07-01T04:51:33.267Z
Answers.LastEditDate: 2012-07-01T04:51:33.267Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: Eve Freeman
Body: <p>The Ulvestad variation starts with <code>1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5</code>
  Now white's best is <code>6.Bf1 Nd4 7.c3</code> leading to this position:  </p>
  
  <pre>
  <code>
        [FEN ""]
        [StartPly "13"]
  
        1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 Nd4 7.c3
  </code>
  </pre>
  
  <p>Usually play continues <code>7...Nxd5 8.cxd4 Qxg5 9.Bxb5+ Kd8 10.O-O! Bb7 11.Qf3</code> and here black has tried both <code>11...exd4</code> and <code>11...Rb8</code>.  I have had a game that continued <code>11...Rb8 12.dxe5 Ne3 13.Qh3 Qxg2+ 14.Qxg2 Nxg2 15.d4 Nh4 16.Bg5+ Be7 17.Bxh4 Bxh4 18.Nc3 Bf3 19.b3 Rb6</code> and we arrived at this position.  </p>
  
  <pre>
  <code>
        [FEN ""]
        [StartPly "38"]
  
        1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 Nd4 7.c3 Nxd5 8.cxd4 Qxg5 9.Bxb5+ Kd8 10.O-O Bb7 11.Qf3 Rb8 (11...exd4) 12.dxe5 Ne3 13.Qh3 Qxg2+ 14.Qxg2 Nxg2 15.d4 Nh4 16.Bg5+ Be7 17.Bxh4 Bxh4 18.Nc3 Bf3 19.b3 Rb6
  </code>
  </pre>
  
  <p>I think that this position is almost winning for white after <code>20.Bd3</code> since the checkmate threats are covered.  For example, black can try <code>20...Rg6+ 21.Bxg6 hxg6</code> but <code>22.Rfd1!!</code> and white should now be winning.  </p>
  
  <pre>
  <code>
        [FEN ""]
        [StartPly "43"]
  
        1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 Nd4 7.c3 Nxd5 8.cxd4 Qxg5 9.Bxb5+ Kd8 10.O-O Bb7 11.Qf3 Rb8 (11...exd4) 12.dxe5 Ne3 13.Qh3 Qxg2+ 14.Qxg2 Nxg2 15.d4 Nh4 16.Bg5+ Be7 17.Bxh4 Bxh4 18.Nc3 Bf3 19.b3 Rb6 20. Bd3 Rg6 21. Bxg6 hxg6 22. Rfd1
  </code>
  </pre>
  
  <p>So my question: is the Ulvestad in trouble, or is there some other variation that makes it playable?  The only real alternative that I have found to the variation I gave above is <code>12...Nb4!?</code>, but I have had several games as white where I won with <code>13.d4! Qg6 14.d5! Bxd5 15.Rd1! Rxb5 16.Nc3</code> followed by Rxd5.</p>
  
  <pre>
  <code>
        [FEN ""]
        [StartPly "31"]
  
        1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 Nd4 7.c3 Nxd5 8.cxd4 Qxg5 9.Bxb5+ Kd8 10.O-O Bb7 11.Qf3 Rb8 (11...exd4) 12.dxe5 Nb4 13.d4 Qg6 14.d5 Bxd5 15.Rd1 Rxb5 16. Nc3
  </code>
  </pre>
  
  <p>Is there another option for black that keeps the Ulvestad alive, or should black be playing <code>5...Na5</code> or <code>3...Bc5</code> instead?</p>
  
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2012-06-01T16:56:41.683Z
Comments.Text: From the last diagram, after Bd3, would ..Rb4 work? it hits d4 and renews the threats at g4, haven't checked with a program though
Comments.UserDisplayName: PeskyGnat
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2012-06-01T17:17:03.047Z
Comments.Text: @PeskyGnat 20...Rb4 is indeed interesting, off the top of my head 21.Be2 looks like the best way for white to continue.  White should keep a significant edge there.  If you do some more analysis, then by all means, post it as an answer!
Comments.UserDisplayName: Andrew
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2012-06-01T17:48:33.507Z
Comments.Text: 10. ... Rb8 and 10. ... exd4 look like possible alternatives to Bb7. I'll post something later if someone doesn't beat me to it.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Eve Freeman
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2012-06-01T17:51:30.360Z
Comments.Text: 10...Rb8 is bad as white plays Bc6! and black has lost counterplay on the long diagonal, but 10...exd4 11.d3 Nf4! 12.Bxf4 Qxb5! is an interesting approach.  I'd love to see what you come up with!
Comments.UserDisplayName: Andrew
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2012-06-01T18:05:21.253Z
Comments.Text: Have you looked at 20. ... f5? (after 20. Bd3)
Comments.UserDisplayName: Eve Freeman
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2012-06-01T18:15:12.520Z
Comments.Text: @WesFreeman short answer, not really - long answer, I analyzed f5 a long time ago and only found simplifications into a losing/much worse endgame for black, but I didn't look very hard. I wouldn't really trust any of that analysis at this point.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Andrew
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2012-06-02T14:14:03.923Z
Comments.Text: So, when you ask, "Is this playable?", do you mean by GMs or by club players?
Comments.UserDisplayName: Tony Ennis
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2012-06-02T15:22:28.243Z
Comments.Text: @TonyEnnis I mean objectively.  With near-perfect play, is black able to get to a draw comfortably?  I am more interested in the truth of the position than the practical chances.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Andrew
Tags: <opening><1.e4><two-knights><italian-game>
Title: Is the Ulvestad variation playable for black?
ThreadText: # Is the Ulvestad variation playable for black?
  
  (Asked by: username_0 on 2012-06-01)
  
  The Ulvestad variation starts with `1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5`
  Now white's best is `6.Bf1 Nd4 7.c3` leading to this position:
  
  ```
  
        [FEN ""]
        [StartPly "13"]
  
        1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 Nd4 7.c3
  
  ```
  
  Usually play continues `7...Nxd5 8.cxd4 Qxg5 9.Bxb5+ Kd8 10.O-O! Bb7 11.Qf3` and here black has tried both `11...exd4` and `11...Rb8`. I have had a game that continued `11...Rb8 12.dxe5 Ne3 13.Qh3 Qxg2+ 14.Qxg2 Nxg2 15.d4 Nh4 16.Bg5+ Be7 17.Bxh4 Bxh4 18.Nc3 Bf3 19.b3 Rb6` and we arrived at this position.
  
  ```
  
        [FEN ""]
        [StartPly "38"]
  
        1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 Nd4 7.c3 Nxd5 8.cxd4 Qxg5 9.Bxb5+ Kd8 10.O-O Bb7 11.Qf3 Rb8 (11...exd4) 12.dxe5 Ne3 13.Qh3 Qxg2+ 14.Qxg2 Nxg2 15.d4 Nh4 16.Bg5+ Be7 17.Bxh4 Bxh4 18.Nc3 Bf3 19.b3 Rb6
  
  ```
  
  I think that this position is almost winning for white after `20.Bd3` since the checkmate threats are covered. For example, black can try `20...Rg6+ 21.Bxg6 hxg6` but `22.Rfd1!!` and white should now be winning.
  
  ```
  
        [FEN ""]
        [StartPly "43"]
  
        1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 Nd4 7.c3 Nxd5 8.cxd4 Qxg5 9.Bxb5+ Kd8 10.O-O Bb7 11.Qf3 Rb8 (11...exd4) 12.dxe5 Ne3 13.Qh3 Qxg2+ 14.Qxg2 Nxg2 15.d4 Nh4 16.Bg5+ Be7 17.Bxh4 Bxh4 18.Nc3 Bf3 19.b3 Rb6 20. Bd3 Rg6 21. Bxg6 hxg6 22. Rfd1
  
  ```
  
  So my question: is the Ulvestad in trouble, or is there some other variation that makes it playable? The only real alternative that I have found to the variation I gave above is `12...Nb4!?`, but I have had several games as white where I won with `13.d4! Qg6 14.d5! Bxd5 15.Rd1! Rxb5 16.Nc3` followed by Rxd5.
  
  ```
  
        [FEN ""]
        [StartPly "31"]
  
        1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5 6.Bf1 Nd4 7.c3 Nxd5 8.cxd4 Qxg5 9.Bxb5+ Kd8 10.O-O Bb7 11.Qf3 Rb8 (11...exd4) 12.dxe5 Nb4 13.d4 Qg6 14.d5 Bxd5 15.Rd1 Rxb5 16. Nc3
  
  ```
  
  Is there another option for black that keeps the Ulvestad alive, or should black be playing `5...Na5` or `3...Bc5` instead?
  
  **Tags:** opening, 1.e4, two-knights, italian-game
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_1**: From the last diagram, after Bd3, would ..Rb4 work? it hits d4 and renews the threats at g4, haven't checked with a program though  
  > **username_0**: @username_1 20...Rb4 is indeed interesting, off the top of my head 21.Be2 looks like the best way for white to continue.  White should keep a significant edge there.  If you do some more analysis, then by all means, post it as an answer!  
  > **username_2**: 10. ... Rb8 and 10. ... exd4 look like possible alternatives to Bb7. I'll post something later if someone doesn't beat me to it.  
  > **username_0**: 10...Rb8 is bad as white plays Bc6! and black has lost counterplay on the long diagonal, but 10...exd4 11.d3 Nf4! 12.Bxf4 Qxb5! is an interesting approach.  I'd love to see what you come up with!  
  > **username_2**: Have you looked at 20. ... f5? (after 20. Bd3)  
  > **username_0**: @WesFreeman short answer, not really - long answer, I analyzed f5 a long time ago and only found simplifications into a losing/much worse endgame for black, but I didn't look very hard. I wouldn't really trust any of that analysis at this point.  
  > **username_3**: So, when you ask, "Is this playable?", do you mean by GMs or by club players?  
  > **username_0**: @username_3 I mean objectively.  With near-perfect play, is black able to get to a draw comfortably?  I am more interested in the truth of the position than the practical chances.  
  
  ---
  
  ## 2 answers
  
  ### Answer by username_2 on 2012-06-02. Score: 13 | Accepted answer
  
  First, I think this is an excellent question for this forum, so thanks for posting it. I'm going to use a mix of computer analysis with stockfish and crafty, and the chesstempo game database to respond.
  
  Your main question: Is Ulvestad playable for black? I think is a definite yes. There are many options unexplored still, but I think even in your specific game black can at least draw with `20. ... f5` to counter `20. Bd3`, and it's not a picnic for white, either--they have to play fairly precisely to keep it even. I'll get back to this at the end.
  
  To avoid making this overly long (I can tell it's going to be long!), I'll just point out some of the unexplored options you don't cover in the question. For example, move 8 isn't set in stone with 8. cxd4, there are also:
  
  ```
  8. Ne4
  8. Nxf7
  8. h4
  
  ```
  
  But we'll continue down your line with `8. cxd4 Qxg5 9. Bxb5+ Kd8`, after which the options for white look like:
  
  ```
  10. O-O Rb8 11. Bc6 exd4 12. d3 Qf5 13. Re1 Nf6 14. Nd2 Qxd3 ... (+0.80 D25 - stockfish)
  10. Qf3 exd4 11. Bc6 Nb4 12. Bxa8 Nc2+ 13. Kd1 Bg4 14. Kxc2 Qc5+ ... (+0.56 D25 - stockfish)
  
  ```
  
  After `8. cxd4 Qxg5 9. Bxb5+ Kd8 10. O-O` there are another few potential options:
  
  ![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/NzxXf.png)
  
  ```
  10. ... exd4 11. Bc6 Rb8 12. d3 Qf5 13. Re1 Nf6 14. Nd2 Qxd3 15. Nb3 Qxd1 ...(+0.60 D29 - stockfish)
  10. ... Rb8 11. Bc6 exd4 12. d3 Qf5 13. Re1 Nf6 14. Nd2 Qxd3 15. Nb3 Qxd1 ...(+0.60 D29 - stockfish) (transposes to above)
  10. ... Bb7 11. Qf3 exd4 12. d3 Qe5 13. Nd2 Bd6 14. g3 a6 15. Ba4 Qf6 ... (+0.72 D29 - stockfish)
  10. ... Qg6 11. dxe5 Rb8 12. Nc3 Nf4 13. Qf3 Bb7 14. Qg3 Nxg2 15. d4 Nh4 ...(+.80 D29 - stockfish)
  10. ... Bg4 11. Qb3 Nf4 12. dxe5 Bd7 13. Qg3 Qxg3 14. fxg3 Ng6 15. Nc3 Bc5+ ...(+.84 D29 - stockfish) 
  
  ```
  
  Again, we'll go with your line, `8. cxd4 Qxg5 9. Bxb5+ Kd8 10. O-O Bb7 11. Qf3`, to which there are a few ideas possibly worth looking deeper at:
  
  ![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/BsYWQ.png)
  
  ```
  11. ... Rb8 12. dxe5 Ne3 13. Qh3 Qxg2+ 14. Qxg2 Nxg2 15. d4 Be7 16. Be2 Nh4 (+0.72 D26 - stockfish)
  11. ... exd4 12. Re1 Be7 13. d3 Qf6 14. Nd2 Rb8 15. Bc4 Nb6 16. Qxf6 Bxf6 (+0.76 D26 - stockfish)
  11. ... Qf4 12. Qxf4 exf4 13. Nc3 Nb4 14. Rb1 Bd6 15. d3 Nc2 16. d5 Nd4 (+1.01 D26 - stockfish)
  
  ```
  
  Again we'll go with your line, `8. cxd4 Qxg5 9. Bxb5+ Kd8 10. O-O Bb7 11. Qf3 Rb8 12. dxe5 Ne3 13. Qh3 Qxg2 14. Qxg2 Nxg2 15. d4`, and again black has several responses to explore:
  
  ![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/yRJcL.png)
  
  ```
  15. ... Be7 16. f4 Nh4 17. Nc3 Nf3+ 18. Kf2 Nxd4 19. Rd1 c5 20. Be3 Bf3 (+0.84 D26 - stockfish)
  15. ... f6 16. Be2 Nh4 17. f4 Bb4 18. Nd2 Nf5 19. Nc4 Ke8 20. Rd1 fxe5 (+0.92 D26 - stockfish)
  15. ... Nh4 16. Bg5+ Be7 17. Bxh4 Bxh4 18. Nc3 Bf3 19. Rab1 Rb6 20. Bd3 Kc8 (+1.01 D25 - stockfish)
  15. ... Kc8 16. f4 Nh4 17. Kf2 c5 18. Be3 Bg2 19. Nc3 Bxf1 20. Rxf1 cxd4 (+1.05 D25 - stockfish)
  
  ```
  
  We're almost to the line you left us, but you can see you probably had several other possibilities. We'll continue with the line: `8. cxd4 Qxg5 9. Bxb5+ Kd8 10. O-O Bb7 11. Qf3 Rb8 12. dxe5 Ne3 13. Qh3 Qxg2 14. Qxg2 Nxg2 15. d4 Nh5 16. Bg5+ Be7 17. Bxh4 Bxh4 18. Nc3 Bf3 19. b3 Rb6 20. Bd3`, which presents us with an interesting position.
  
  ![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/HHcLP.png)
  
  It looks like my f5 idea was pretty good, as it seems to be a solid draw for black if both sides play perfectly (as far as I can tell). Interestingly enough, computers don't tend to see f5 until they get 30 deep or so. The goal being to get the h8 rook involved ASAP. If white slips up, they can be in for some pain.
  
  There are two reasonable responses to `20. ... f5`:
  
  ```
  21. Ne2 Rg6+ 22. Ng3 Rf8 23. Rae1 (+0.32 D28 - stockfish)
  21. Bxf5 Rc6 22. Nd1 Rf8 23. Ne3 Bg5 24. Bg4 Rg6 25. Bxf3 Bxe3+ 26. Kh1 Bxd4 (+0.00 D28 - stockfish)
  
  ```
  
  The rest look like probable bad news:
  
  ```
  21. e6 Rxe6 22. Bxf5 Rc6 23. Rac1 Rf8 24. Bd3 Bg5 25. Rc2 Rf4 (-0.92 D28 - stockfish)
  21. exf6 gxf6 22. Bc4 f5 23. Rfe1 Rg6+ 24. Kf1 Rg2 25. Re3 Rxf2+ (-1.53 D28 - stockfish)
  21. Rfe1 Rg6+ 22. Kf1 Rg2 23. Re3 Rxf2+ 24. Kg1 f4 25. Rxf3 Rxf3 (-2.14 D28 - stockfish)
  21. Rfd1 Rg6+ 22. Kf1 Rg2 23. Rd2 Rxh2 24. Ke1 Bg5 25. Rdd1 c6 (-2.70 D28 - stockfish)
  
  ```
  
  I let stockfish think about this position for several hours, and when it gets to about 30-31 deep, the score for both of the best moves dwindles to 0.00 or 0.08 (which indicates a likely draw). I played out several scenarios which involved different colored bishops and rooks that had easily defended pawns, but that couldn't obviously make progress. Or Rook+Knight vs Rook+Bishop. There were a few times that black had a bishop traded for a couple of pawns, but couldn't do anything with it. Never got to a 6 piece EGTB position--always too many pawns leftover. If someone can find a win for white with 20. ... f5, I'd like to see it!
  
  **Update 6-20-2012**
  
  `21. Bxf5` seems to be a bad choice after `21. ... Rc6 22. Rfc1 Rf8`.
  
  ![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/t3SXO.png)
  
  I haven't looked at other moves other than `22. Rfc1` deeply yet (such as `22. Rac1` and `22. Nd1`), but white doesn't have many good options at `23.` `23. Bxh7` looks like it has potential, but after `23. ... g6` the bishop becomes hard to use. `23. Bd3` is in second place so far, `23. Bd4` is in third, and `23. Bb1` is in fourth, but they all score negative with 30 depth.
  
  `21. Ne2` looks like it offers white a few chances for draw by repetition several moves in. This line, for example (I need to check some of the others for black to see if there's something better than `21. ... Rg6+`, but that seems unlikely): `21. ... Rg6+ 22. Ng3 Rg5 23. Rac1 f4 24. Rc3 Rf8 25. Rfc1 c6 26. Bb5 fxg3 27. hxg3 Bxg3 28. fxg3 Rxg3+ 29. Kh2 Rg2+ 30. Kh3 Rg6 31.Bxc6 Rh6+ 32.Kg3 Rg6+ 33.Kh3` ends with a pretty straightforward draw by repetition drawish looking position:
  
  ![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/4nsC7.png)
  
  Another update: `21. Ne2 Rg6+ 22. Ng3 f4 23. Rfc1 Rg5 24. Rc3 Bb7` looks promising for black.
  
  Update: Here is some analysis, if anyone is interested: <http://mongochess.skeweredrook.com/ulvestad-variation>
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_3**: One's skill must be taken into account when analyzing.  It's one thing to objectively state, "This move is bad" or "this move is best" which practically speaking Stockfish is doing (I'd wager none of us can defeat it.)  However, the OP's question is "Is this playable?"  So, assuming we're not GMs, does the variation create pitfalls for either side which produce an unbalanced and high chance of one side coming out ahead?  
  > **username_3**: Consider a variation where if white plays like an 1800, he wins, but if black plays like a 2200, he can't lose.  An "A" or "B" player might like these odds, as white.  
  > **username_2**: First, I don't think any openings produce "an unbalanced and high chance of one side coming out ahead", otherwise everyone would play them (or avoid them). The goals of my analysis were to point out that there were several other possible moves to look at. In fact, going through it, black seemed to have more choices than white, who had to pick from 1 good move most of the time.  
  > **username_3**: No argument and I'm not criticizing your posting (I +1'ed it earlier, in fact)  I'm just pointing out that "playable" depends on the skill levels of the player.  
  > **username_2**: I usually play the Na5 variation instead of b5, but I may give this one a go after spending a few hours looking at it. I don't think it requires GM abilities to play, especially if you've looked at these variations in advance (which is something you'd do if you really want to prepare for this opening, or any opening for that matter).  
  > **username_0**: @WesFreeman great analysis.  My slow OTB games in this line have all been as white, and my analysis has mostly been from the white perspective.  On moves 10 and 11, I believe that black's play is forced.  For example, 10...Rb8 11.Bc6! and black has no counterplay.  And 11...exd4 12.d3! is very good for white as in [Esserman-Nikolayev](http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1609659).  After 20...f5!, I think the critical line is 21.Bxf5 Rc6 22.Rfc1 and it is most likely a draw, though white will have the edge with the better pawn structure.  
  > **username_2**: Inspired partly by this question, I've built a simple analysis system that feeds moves into stockfish and stores the results in mongodb at increasing depths, indexed by board position (FEN). I'll see how many computers I can get churning out results, and eventually build some sort of visualization for them. 20. ... f5! is definitely a (!), as it ranks very low initially, and climbs up the ranks to the only reasonable move after a depth of 25 or so.  
  > **username_2**: @username_0 According to my analysis, which is still ongoing, it looks like `21. Bxf5` ends up likely losing for white, where `21. Ne2` gives white a chance to draw. I've by no means exhausted the search space... but three computers are crunching away.  
  > **username_0**: That sounds awesome, care to share any specific lines (or edit them into the answer, etc)?  
  > **username_2**: I put a few lines in. I'd like to build a visualization of sorts eventually, which will show depths and scores and best lines, and let you drill in to pre-analyzed positions.  
  > **username_2**: I added an update with what will hopefully a permanent link to my work in progress.  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_4 on 2016-07-20. Score: 0
  
  Yes, it is playable in my opinion. The starting position on the diagram may not be reflective of Black's best chances in the Ulvestad because it assumes that 6...Nd4 it best, while it scores much worse than 6...h6. After 6...h6 White scores only 47% according to ChessBase, I don't think you can find many opening lines as playable for Black as this (we're only on move 6).
  
  
  ---
  
  