Answers.Body: <p>I have probably the largest high quality database in private hands on the planet, including human and engine games.  Tens of millions of games.  A proper assessment of a move's merit has to include both a deep evaluation of the strongest engine available (right now that's Stockfish) combined with comprehensive empirical data.</p>
  
  <p>Empirically, f3 is definitely the worst.  Nh3 and g4 challenge it but cannot match it in terms of chess malpractice.  As for the defenders of the Grob (g4), sorry, it's a bad move, no question, and this opinion is double-reinforced by how often it has been seen, which is about 4-5x more often than f3.  Its principal advantage is that it doesn't lose material right away by force.</p>
  
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Answers.Text: Welcome to Chess SE!
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Answers.Body: <p><strong>It's terribly wrong to dump an engine output as an opening analysis!</strong> Engines are weaker in strategy comparing to humans. An opening analysis should be done by a computer-aided human, not by an engine itself. </p>
  
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Answers.Text: Why the downvote?  Pointing out that it isn't valid to use engines in this way is helpful.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Tony Ennis
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Answers.Text: I think 1.a4 and 1.h4 can't possibly the worse moves.
Answers.UserDisplayName: SmallChess
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Answers.Text: @Student T Why? I would really like to hear your reason.
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Answers.Text: @TonyEnnis Nonsense :)
Answers.UserDisplayName: ferit
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Answers.Text: He is actually right. If he wasn't, there would be no opening-related content, you would just show the position to Stockfish and learn his answer. Indeed, first engine choice are not always mainline theory
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Answers.Body: <blockquote>
    <p>What is the worst possible first move for White: 1.f3 or 1.g4?</p>
  </blockquote>
  
  <p><code>f3</code> doesn't contribute to the piece development ( it actually hinders it by taking away <strong>the best</strong> square for the <code>Ng1</code> ), it doesn't fight for the center ( it only <strong>strengthens</strong> the <code>e4</code> square that White can claim <strong>anyway</strong> with <code>1.Nc3</code> or <code>1.e4</code> ) and above all it exposes the king. </p>
  
  <p><code>g4</code> vacates <code>g2</code> for the <code>Bf1</code> ( fianchettoed bishop is usually good ), it helps in the fight for the center indirectly ( you can weaken Black's control of <code>d5</code> and <code>e4</code> if Black plays <code>...Nf6</code> at some point, by simply playing <code>g5</code> ) and pawn at <code>g4</code> can be useful in kingside attack if Black castles short. It does weaken <code>f4</code> and <code>h4</code>, so it is somewhat dubious, but it is playable ( although I doubt White can reach full equality...).</p>
  
  <p>Therefore, when we compare the above facts, we can see that <code>1.f3</code> is clearly the worst first move, <strong>based on the opening theory</strong> ( since only one move is played it is to early to make <strong>final</strong> conclusions, since White may transpose into decent position with his next moves ).</p>
  
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Answers.Text: It may be noted, that king safety is an especially important factor in "human" play. An engine may enjoy the extra piece in a FriedLiverAttack - but a human is just absolutely screwed. Also: Never play f[3,6]! Neverrrr!
Answers.UserDisplayName: Benjamin Raabe
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Answers.Text: I may agree with the answer, but I don't with the reasoning. We cannot say that a movei s good or bad just based on words, but rather by how the opponent can exploit it. I can also claim that the weakness of the h4 square is devastating and therefore g4 is worse, since f3 does not cause anything like that. For that, we need actual analysis!
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Body: <p>After making my engines evaluate the starting position for more than 10 hours each, here is what I got:</p>
  
  <p>.</p>
  
  <p>Fritz 12:</p>
  
  <p>Depth = 25/65</p>
  
  <p>Time = 10 hours and 30 minutes</p>
  
  <ul>
  <li>1.f3 : -0.90 </li>
  <li>1.g4 : -0.77</li>
  <li>1.Nh3 : -0.56</li>
  <li>1.Na3 : -0.52</li>
  <li>1.h4 : -0.47</li>
  <li>1.b4 : -0.47</li>
  <li>1.a4 : -0.42</li>
  </ul>
  
  <p>All 13 other moves are -0.25 or more.</p>
  
  <p>.</p>
  
  <p>Houdini 3 Pro x64</p>
  
  <p>Depth = 29/76</p>
  
  <p>Time = 11 hours and 45 minutes</p>
  
  <ul>
  <li>1.g4 : -0.51</li>
  <li>1.f3 : -0.50</li>
  <li>1.Nh3 : -0.38</li>
  <li>1.Na3 : -0.37</li>
  <li>1.h4 : -0.25</li>
  <li>1.b4 : -0.20</li>
  <li>1.a4 : -0.17</li>
  </ul>
  
  <p>All 13 other moves are -0.12 or more.</p>
  
  <p>.</p>
  
  <p>One thing seems very probable: the worst possible first move is either 1.f3 or 1.g4.</p>
  
  <p>So between these two moves: which is the number #1 worst possible move?</p>
  
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Comments.CreationDate: 2014-07-03T23:35:01.517Z
Comments.Text: duplicate - https://chess.stackexchange.com/questions/132/what-is-the-worst-opening-move-and-why/134#134
Comments.UserDisplayName: NM Wesley Falcao
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Comments.Text: @Wes: Not really since my question is specific to only 1.g4 and 1.f3, while that other question discussed all moves. And there is absolutely no mention of 1.g4 on that other question.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Fate
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Comments.CreationDate: 2014-07-03T23:43:36.593Z
Comments.Text: that is probably because 1. g4 is much better than other bad moves like 1. h4 and 1. Na3.
Comments.UserDisplayName: NM Wesley Falcao
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Comments.CreationDate: 2014-07-03T23:56:46.403Z
Comments.Text: Can you explain why 1.g4 is MUCH better than 1.h4 and 1.Na3 ? Note that 1.h4 has at least one proponent among the world's elite: Nakamura (who uses it in blitz).
Comments.UserDisplayName: Fate
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Comments.CreationDate: 2014-07-04T02:07:01.800Z
Comments.Text: That... doesn't mean he's a proponent. It's more of an eff-you. 1.g4 prepares to develop a piece to a good square. The other two moves don't.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Cleveland
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Comments.CreationDate: 2014-07-04T13:23:56.183Z
Comments.Text: Petrosian, if you really want a comparison of the relative merits of `1.f3` and `1.g4`, it would probably be best to limit the wording of your question to just that, and to discard from your post all talk about these being the two worst possible, as that is quite a controversial and distracting assertion to make.
Comments.UserDisplayName: ETD
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Comments.CreationDate: 2014-07-12T15:36:26.180Z
Comments.Text: 1.g4 (the Grob) is pretty goofy but is playable and has some established theory. 1.f3 is just plain bad.
Comments.UserDisplayName: dfan
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Comments.CreationDate: 2015-12-27T05:05:13.930Z
Comments.Text: It's extremely wrong to use an engine output as opening analysis. Engines can't do opening analysis, humans do it. Engines are just tools for humans to cover up their tactical mistakes. Humans are stronger when it comes to strategy. Your post is ironically proving my claim, 1.a4 and 1.h4 are far more worse than 1.g4 and 1.f3, everyone who studied some chess knows this.
Comments.UserDisplayName: ferit
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Comments.CreationDate: 2019-04-24T09:46:41.027Z
Comments.Text: Don't trust machine evaluation for these situations. As you've already checked yourself, it is meaningless
Comments.UserDisplayName: David
Tags: <opening><theory><blunder>
Title: What is the worst possible first move for White: 1.f3 or 1.g4?
ThreadText: # What is the worst possible first move for White: 1.f3 or 1.g4?
  
  (Asked by: username_0 on 2014-07-03)
  
  After making my engines evaluate the starting position for more than 10 hours each, here is what I got:
  
  .
  
  Fritz 12:
  
  Depth = 25/65
  
  Time = 10 hours and 30 minutes
  
  * 1.f3 : -0.90
  * 1.g4 : -0.77
  * 1.Nh3 : -0.56
  * 1.Na3 : -0.52
  * 1.h4 : -0.47
  * 1.b4 : -0.47
  * 1.a4 : -0.42
  
  All 13 other moves are -0.25 or more.
  
  .
  
  Houdini 3 Pro x64
  
  Depth = 29/76
  
  Time = 11 hours and 45 minutes
  
  * 1.g4 : -0.51
  * 1.f3 : -0.50
  * 1.Nh3 : -0.38
  * 1.Na3 : -0.37
  * 1.h4 : -0.25
  * 1.b4 : -0.20
  * 1.a4 : -0.17
  
  All 13 other moves are -0.12 or more.
  
  .
  
  One thing seems very probable: the worst possible first move is either 1.f3 or 1.g4.
  
  So between these two moves: which is the number #1 worst possible move?
  
  **Tags:** opening, theory, blunder
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_1**: duplicate - https://chess.stackexchange.com/questions/132/what-is-the-worst-opening-move-and-why/134#134  
  > **username_0**: @Wes: Not really since my question is specific to only 1.g4 and 1.f3, while that other question discussed all moves. And there is absolutely no mention of 1.g4 on that other question.  
  > **username_1**: that is probably because 1. g4 is much better than other bad moves like 1. h4 and 1. Na3.  
  > **username_0**: Can you explain why 1.g4 is MUCH better than 1.h4 and 1.Na3 ? Note that 1.h4 has at least one proponent among the world's elite: Nakamura (who uses it in blitz).  
  > **username_2**: That... doesn't mean he's a proponent. It's more of an eff-you. 1.g4 prepares to develop a piece to a good square. The other two moves don't.  
  > **username_3**: Petrosian, if you really want a comparison of the relative merits of `1.f3` and `1.g4`, it would probably be best to limit the wording of your question to just that, and to discard from your post all talk about these being the two worst possible, as that is quite a controversial and distracting assertion to make.  
  > **username_4**: 1.g4 (the Grob) is pretty goofy but is playable and has some established theory. 1.f3 is just plain bad.  
  > **username_5**: It's extremely wrong to use an engine output as opening analysis. Engines can't do opening analysis, humans do it. Engines are just tools for humans to cover up their tactical mistakes. Humans are stronger when it comes to strategy. Your post is ironically proving my claim, 1.a4 and 1.h4 are far more worse than 1.g4 and 1.f3, everyone who studied some chess knows this.  
  > **username_6**: Don't trust machine evaluation for these situations. As you've already checked yourself, it is meaningless  
  
  ---
  
  ## 3 answers
  
  ### Answer by username_8 on 2014-07-08. Score: 10 | Accepted answer
  
  > What is the worst possible first move for White: 1.f3 or 1.g4?
  
  `f3` doesn't contribute to the piece development ( it actually hinders it by taking away **the best** square for the `Ng1` ), it doesn't fight for the center ( it only **strengthens** the `e4` square that White can claim **anyway** with `1.Nc3` or `1.e4` ) and above all it exposes the king.
  
  `g4` vacates `g2` for the `Bf1` ( fianchettoed bishop is usually good ), it helps in the fight for the center indirectly ( you can weaken Black's control of `d5` and `e4` if Black plays `...Nf6` at some point, by simply playing `g5` ) and pawn at `g4` can be useful in kingside attack if Black castles short. It does weaken `f4` and `h4`, so it is somewhat dubious, but it is playable ( although I doubt White can reach full equality...).
  
  Therefore, when we compare the above facts, we can see that `1.f3` is clearly the worst first move, **based on the opening theory** ( since only one move is played it is to early to make **final** conclusions, since White may transpose into decent position with his next moves ).
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_11**: It may be noted, that king safety is an especially important factor in "human" play. An engine may enjoy the extra piece in a FriedLiverAttack - but a human is just absolutely screwed. Also: Never play f[3,6]! Neverrrr!  
  > **username_6**: I may agree with the answer, but I don't with the reasoning. We cannot say that a movei s good or bad just based on words, but rather by how the opponent can exploit it. I can also claim that the weakness of the h4 square is devastating and therefore g4 is worse, since f3 does not cause anything like that. For that, we need actual analysis!  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_7 on 2014-08-18. Score: 5
  
  I have probably the largest high quality database in private hands on the planet, including human and engine games. Tens of millions of games. A proper assessment of a move's merit has to include both a deep evaluation of the strongest engine available (right now that's Stockfish) combined with comprehensive empirical data.
  
  Empirically, f3 is definitely the worst. Nh3 and g4 challenge it but cannot match it in terms of chess malpractice. As for the defenders of the Grob (g4), sorry, it's a bad move, no question, and this opinion is double-reinforced by how often it has been seen, which is about 4-5x more often than f3. Its principal advantage is that it doesn't lose material right away by force.
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_8**: Welcome to Chess SE!  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_5 on 2015-12-27. Score: 1
  
  **It's terribly wrong to dump an engine output as an opening analysis!** Engines are weaker in strategy comparing to humans. An opening analysis should be done by a computer-aided human, not by an engine itself.
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_9**: Why the downvote?  Pointing out that it isn't valid to use engines in this way is helpful.  
  > **username_10**: I think 1.a4 and 1.h4 can't possibly the worse moves.  
  > **username_5**: @Student T Why? I would really like to hear your reason.  
  > **username_5**: @username_9 Nonsense :)  
  > **username_6**: He is actually right. If he wasn't, there would be no opening-related content, you would just show the position to Stockfish and learn his answer. Indeed, first engine choice are not always mainline theory  
  
  ---
  
  