Answers.Body: <p>8.4.3. Drawing of positions</p>
  
  <p>● Set up of the pieces will be decided by a drawing made by Fischer Random Generator
  software with all players present 15 minutes before the start of the first game of
  each time control. This setup then will be used for both games. The players will
  attend this drawing, and will then be given time before the start of play to confer
  with a second.</p>
  
  <p>Found in the download here: <a href="https://www.frchess.com/regulations" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://www.frchess.com/regulations</a></p>
  
  <p>Interestingly, if the classical position is picked then they pick again.</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-11-01T21:02:57.050Z
Answers.Text: Thank you. I looked, but I missed that little link within the link. It was almost invisible. This is what I was looking for.
Answers.UserDisplayName: PhishMaster
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-11-01T21:54:03.110Z
Answers.Text: I am a bit surprised that classical position allowed to be picked in the first place, since it is what FR chess is attempting to avoid. I got classical position in FR on lichess.org once; it was very strange.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Akavall
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-11-01T22:05:14.320Z
Answers.Text: The classical starting position - and its mirror - are indeed among the 960 valid starting positions.  In such cases the Chess960 rules play out identically to standard chess, including castling rules.  Excluding these positions from the system would actually have complicated it.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Chromatix
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-11-01T22:22:15.097Z
Answers.Text: The mirror position is little different, because of castling rules, even though king is on d1 the castling to queenside puts King on c1 and rook on d1, and kingside King on g1 and rook on f1, so it is not exactly like standard chess. I got this position on lichess.org as well. But why would excluding classical position complicate anything? It seems that organizers of FR chess championship have to take an extra step to do it.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Akavall
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-11-01T23:29:37.183Z
Answers.Text: Basically, you would have to insert a rule in the position generating system along the lines of "there are 959 valid positions, of 960 possible; if you come up with number X then roll again because that's the one invalid position".  That's precisely the complication added by the FR championship rule.  However, I believe that is present in the championship rules to avoid an FR tournament being distorted by an accidental standard game in which deep opening theory is employed by one or both players.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Chromatix
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-11-02T03:06:41.107Z
Answers.Text: I guess to me it really is chess959, since one position is classical chess. I see how implementation gets more complicated if want to avoid the classical position, but it is still, very, very easy to implement. I would be surprised if extra complexity is the main reason for including classical position as one of the 960.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Akavall
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-11-02T19:38:36.167Z
Answers.Text: The comments suggesting that excluding the classical position automatically would make the software too complicated.... Makes no sense at all. It definitely wouldn't.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Darren H
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Answers.CreationDate: 2021-01-20T14:09:02.703Z
Answers.Text: @Akavall related? https://chess.stackexchange.com/questions/21434/chess960-or-chess959
Answers.UserDisplayName: BCLC
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2021-01-20T14:09:07.690Z
Answers.Text: @Chromatix related? https://chess.stackexchange.com/questions/21434/chess960-or-chess959
Answers.UserDisplayName: BCLC
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-11-01T20:50:57.657Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2019-11-04T13:43:19.087Z
Answers.LastEditDate: 2019-11-04T13:43:19.087Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: ZachMann
Answers.Body: <p>Many professional-grade chess clocks are capable of randomly choosing a valid Chess960 starting position and describing it to the players.  I suspect that in many tournaments, this is how it's done.</p>
  
  <p>It is also possible to choose the position using other sources of randomness, such as rolling dice.  Standard gaming dice sets include not only 6-sided cube dice (known as d6), but 8-sided, 10-sided, 12-sided, 20-sided, and 4-sided types as well.</p>
  
  <p>A Chess960 position can be fairly chosen using 2d4 of contrasting colours (to choose the positions of the bishops), a d6 (to place the Queen on the remaining squares), and a d10 (to place the knights).  The rooks and king are placed on the three remaining squares, with the king in the middle.  This procedure also corresponds to the method of deriving a position from a position ID <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer_Random_Chess_numbering_scheme#Direct_derivation" rel="nofollow noreferrer">outlined here</a>.</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-11-01T21:02:18.780Z
Answers.Text: I have a DGT 3000, which is a FIDE-approved clock, and the one you see at all the major events, but it does not have the generator function. I did not know that that existed, and a lot of their other clocks do have it. Thank you.
Answers.UserDisplayName: PhishMaster
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-11-01T21:14:35.470Z
Answers.Text: Right.  It's also not difficult to write software to do it on a normal computer, such as a Raspberry Pi or a typical laptop.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Chromatix
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-11-01T21:16:08.257Z
Answers.Text: Of course, it should be easy if you are a programmer, but I was more curious about the rules specific to the current world championship in progress. I could not find the link that ZachMann posted. Otherwise, I also liked your answer.
Answers.UserDisplayName: PhishMaster
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-11-01T21:29:44.957Z
Answers.Text: The only DGT clock I know of that has a Chess960 starting position generator is the DGT Travel Timer. I'm surprised they put it in that one, but not any of their other products.
Answers.UserDisplayName: patbarron
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-11-01T21:34:30.873Z
Answers.Text: @patbarron It is in that one, and its predecessor the Pocket Timer...they look about the same, so it is not a surprise. I wonder if it is not in the others because of something in FIDE's requirements to make them "FIDE approved".
Answers.UserDisplayName: PhishMaster
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-11-01T20:50:50.350Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2019-11-01T20:50:50.350Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: Chromatix
Body: <p>I am watching the Fischer Random World Championship with Magnus Carlsen and Wesley So, and I am wondering how they determine the starting position?</p>
  <p>Is it software that picks, or do they start left to right, and pull pieces out of a bag? Or is it some other way?</p>
  
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2019-11-01T20:33:11.070Z
Comments.Text: Anyone: I brain-farted, and created a chess-360 tag. How can I delete that erroneous tag?
Comments.UserDisplayName: PhishMaster
Tags: <chess960>
Title: How do they determine the starting position for Fisher Random / Chess 960?
ThreadText: # How do they determine the starting position for Fisher Random / Chess 960?
  
  (Asked by: username_0 on 2019-11-01)
  
  I am watching the Fischer Random World Championship with Magnus Carlsen and Wesley So, and I am wondering how they determine the starting position?
  
  Is it software that picks, or do they start left to right, and pull pieces out of a bag? Or is it some other way?
  
  **Tags:** chess960
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_0**: Anyone: I brain-farted, and created a chess-360 tag. How can I delete that erroneous tag?  
  
  ---
  
  ## 2 answers
  
  ### Answer by username_1 on 2019-11-01. Score: 5 | Accepted answer
  
  8.4.3. Drawing of positions
  
  ● Set up of the pieces will be decided by a drawing made by Fischer Random Generator
  software with all players present 15 minutes before the start of the first game of
  each time control. This setup then will be used for both games. The players will
  attend this drawing, and will then be given time before the start of play to confer
  with a second.
  
  Found in the download here: <https://www.frchess.com/regulations>
  
  Interestingly, if the classical position is picked then they pick again.
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_0**: Thank you. I looked, but I missed that little link within the link. It was almost invisible. This is what I was looking for.  
  > **username_2**: I am a bit surprised that classical position allowed to be picked in the first place, since it is what FR chess is attempting to avoid. I got classical position in FR on lichess.org once; it was very strange.  
  > **username_3**: The classical starting position - and its mirror - are indeed among the 960 valid starting positions.  In such cases the Chess960 rules play out identically to standard chess, including castling rules.  Excluding these positions from the system would actually have complicated it.  
  > **username_2**: The mirror position is little different, because of castling rules, even though king is on d1 the castling to queenside puts King on c1 and rook on d1, and kingside King on g1 and rook on f1, so it is not exactly like standard chess. I got this position on lichess.org as well. But why would excluding classical position complicate anything? It seems that organizers of FR chess championship have to take an extra step to do it.  
  > **username_3**: Basically, you would have to insert a rule in the position generating system along the lines of "there are 959 valid positions, of 960 possible; if you come up with number X then roll again because that's the one invalid position".  That's precisely the complication added by the FR championship rule.  However, I believe that is present in the championship rules to avoid an FR tournament being distorted by an accidental standard game in which deep opening theory is employed by one or both players.  
  > **username_2**: I guess to me it really is chess959, since one position is classical chess. I see how implementation gets more complicated if want to avoid the classical position, but it is still, very, very easy to implement. I would be surprised if extra complexity is the main reason for including classical position as one of the 960.  
  > **username_4**: The comments suggesting that excluding the classical position automatically would make the software too complicated.... Makes no sense at all. It definitely wouldn't.  
  > **username_5**: @username_2 related? https://chess.stackexchange.com/questions/21434/chess960-or-chess959  
  > **username_5**: @username_3 related? https://chess.stackexchange.com/questions/21434/chess960-or-chess959  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_3 on 2019-11-01. Score: 4
  
  Many professional-grade chess clocks are capable of randomly choosing a valid Chess960 starting position and describing it to the players. I suspect that in many tournaments, this is how it's done.
  
  It is also possible to choose the position using other sources of randomness, such as rolling dice. Standard gaming dice sets include not only 6-sided cube dice (known as d6), but 8-sided, 10-sided, 12-sided, 20-sided, and 4-sided types as well.
  
  A Chess960 position can be fairly chosen using 2d4 of contrasting colours (to choose the positions of the bishops), a d6 (to place the Queen on the remaining squares), and a d10 (to place the knights). The rooks and king are placed on the three remaining squares, with the king in the middle. This procedure also corresponds to the method of deriving a position from a position ID [outlined here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer_Random_Chess_numbering_scheme#Direct_derivation).
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_0**: I have a DGT 3000, which is a FIDE-approved clock, and the one you see at all the major events, but it does not have the generator function. I did not know that that existed, and a lot of their other clocks do have it. Thank you.  
  > **username_3**: Right.  It's also not difficult to write software to do it on a normal computer, such as a Raspberry Pi or a typical laptop.  
  > **username_0**: Of course, it should be easy if you are a programmer, but I was more curious about the rules specific to the current world championship in progress. I could not find the link that username_1 posted. Otherwise, I also liked your answer.  
  > **username_6**: The only DGT clock I know of that has a Chess960 starting position generator is the DGT Travel Timer. I'm surprised they put it in that one, but not any of their other products.  
  > **username_0**: @username_6 It is in that one, and its predecessor the Pocket Timer...they look about the same, so it is not a surprise. I wonder if it is not in the others because of something in FIDE's requirements to make them "FIDE approved".  
  
  ---
  
  