Answers.Body: <p>I believe the position would be more equal if some of the pawns remained to block the bishops initial reach into white's position. Black has some attacks immediately that cannot all be defended.</p>
  <ol>
  <li>Bxb2 winning a rook</li>
  <li>Bxg2 winning a rook</li>
  <li>Bxf2+ sacrifice, followed by potentially Bh4+ g3 Bxg3+ hxg3+ Bxg3+ and the king is almost mated immediately.</li>
  </ol>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2022-02-24T08:54:55.107Z
Answers.Text: After 1.e4, it is #9. I always said I don't like e4 :-)
Answers.UserDisplayName: Hauke Reddmann
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Answers.CreationDate: 2022-02-24T01:24:32.950Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2022-02-24T01:24:32.950Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: Alan
Answers.Body: <p>If a knight on the rim is grim, then 9 nights on the rim is very very grim!  Conversely I wonder if there's some &quot;bug&quot; where you get a bonus for having the bishop pair too many times?</p>
  <p>You can already see a similar phenomenon happening to a less extreme degree by just looking at the starting position but with 4 knights (+1.0) or 4 bishops (-.4).  But in that case there doesn't seem to be a threshold phenomenon.</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2022-02-24T08:57:55.773Z
Answers.Text: You have a point there, 4k3/nnnnnnnn/nnnnnnnn/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1 is -7...
Answers.UserDisplayName: Hauke Reddmann
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2022-02-24T10:05:51.877Z
Answers.Text: Just replacing one minor piece by one of the other type is enough to replace White's first-turn advantage into a Black advantage. For example, Bc1->N: 1 d4 -0.26. Replacing more minor pieces gives Black a greater advantage: Bc1, Bf1-> 2 Ns: 1 d4 -0.62. White with 4 Ns v Black with 4 Bs: 1 e4 -2.22. Stockfish 14 64-bmi2.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Rosie F
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2022-02-25T12:00:31.187Z
Answers.Text: That is 105 bishop pairs.  Whoa.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Michael West
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Answers.CreationDate: 2022-02-23T17:27:54.907Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2022-02-23T17:27:54.907Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: Noah Snyder
Body: <p>The following is...disturbing.</p>
  <pre><code>[FEN &quot;bbbbkbbb/bbbbbbbb/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1&quot;]
  </code></pre>
  <p>Black is about 15*3-38, say 10 units up (as Black will also grab a pawn and exchange on b2 or g2, to say the least). Stockfish evaluation is even more pessimistic.</p>
  <pre><code>[FEN &quot;nnnnknnn/nnnnnnnn/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1&quot;]
  </code></pre>
  <p>Eh...WHAT?!? (Try yourself. I used Lichess Standard.)</p>
  <p>You can answer the WHAT?!? by &quot;horizon&quot;, and it is kind of true - the nearer the shortlegs come, the more the evaluation goes down. But depth 20 or so should suffice to find out that White is to be trampled over soon.</p>
  <p>So I repeat my question, why does the computer underrate the knights so drastically here? (Even if some knights had to be &quot;traded&quot; against pawns, Black is still up materially!)</p>
  
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2022-02-23T17:20:12.750Z
Comments.Text: This seems to be missing a sentence with the evaluation?
Comments.UserDisplayName: Noah Snyder
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2022-02-23T18:28:11.430Z
Comments.Text: What does Leela say about these positions?
Comments.UserDisplayName: SecretAgentMan
Tags: <engines><knights><bishops>
Title: The ultimate decision of the eternal bishop vs knight question
ThreadText: # The ultimate decision of the eternal bishop vs knight question
  
  (Asked by: username_0 on 2022-02-23)
  
  The following is...disturbing.
  
  ```
  [FEN "bbbbkbbb/bbbbbbbb/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
  
  ```
  
  Black is about 15\*3-38, say 10 units up (as Black will also grab a pawn and exchange on b2 or g2, to say the least). Stockfish evaluation is even more pessimistic.
  
  ```
  [FEN "nnnnknnn/nnnnnnnn/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1"]
  
  ```
  
  Eh...WHAT?!? (Try yourself. I used Lichess Standard.)
  
  You can answer the WHAT?!? by "horizon", and it is kind of true - the nearer the shortlegs come, the more the evaluation goes down. But depth 20 or so should suffice to find out that White is to be trampled over soon.
  
  So I repeat my question, why does the computer underrate the knights so drastically here? (Even if some knights had to be "traded" against pawns, Black is still up materially!)
  
  **Tags:** engines, knights, bishops
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_1**: This seems to be missing a sentence with the evaluation?  
  > **username_2**: What does Leela say about these positions?  
  
  ---
  
  ## 2 answers
  
  ### Answer by username_3 on 2022-02-24. Score: 1
  
  I believe the position would be more equal if some of the pawns remained to block the bishops initial reach into white's position. Black has some attacks immediately that cannot all be defended.
  
  1. Bxb2 winning a rook
  2. Bxg2 winning a rook
  3. Bxf2+ sacrifice, followed by potentially Bh4+ g3 Bxg3+ hxg3+ Bxg3+ and the king is almost mated immediately.
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_0**: After 1.e4, it is #9. I always said I don't like e4 :-)  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_1 on 2022-02-23. Score: 0
  
  If a knight on the rim is grim, then 9 nights on the rim is very very grim! Conversely I wonder if there's some "bug" where you get a bonus for having the bishop pair too many times?
  
  You can already see a similar phenomenon happening to a less extreme degree by just looking at the starting position but with 4 knights (+1.0) or 4 bishops (-.4). But in that case there doesn't seem to be a threshold phenomenon.
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_0**: You have a point there, 4k3/nnnnnnnn/nnnnnnnn/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 1 is -7...  
  > **username_4**: Just replacing one minor piece by one of the other type is enough to replace White's first-turn advantage into a Black advantage. For example, Bc1->N: 1 d4 -0.26. Replacing more minor pieces gives Black a greater advantage: Bc1, Bf1-> 2 Ns: 1 d4 -0.62. White with 4 Ns v Black with 4 Bs: 1 e4 -2.22. Stockfish 14 64-bmi2.  
  > **username_5**: That is 105 bishop pairs.  Whoa.  
  
  ---
  
  