Body: <p>There might be another established word in English (in German it's &quot;Bauernkloppe&quot;) for this training lesson for kids, but the rules are simple: Both sides have only the pawns at their usual places, first one to queen wins. (Stalemate rarely happens and is a draw.)</p>
  <p>Is this a win for white or black? (My own verdict: Nearly as hard as &quot;normal&quot; chess. Thus I would be surprised about an actual proof, but someone <em>might</em> have built a tablebase already.)</p>
  <p>BTW, 4 against 4 is won for White, just enter 1k6/1P2pppp/KP6/PP6/8/8/4PPPP/8 in your engine. (I did when researching and published it as a #11 chess problem.)</p>
  
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2024-06-20T14:49:52.717Z
Comments.Text: Apparently 5 vs. 5 is likewise won for White
  (k7/P2ppppp/Kp6/bP6/1p6/1P6/3PPPPP/8 b - - 0 1).
Comments.UserDisplayName: Noam D. Elkies
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2024-06-20T21:01:28.537Z
Comments.Text: @NoamD.Elkies: The setup is somewhat unfair for Black, as he loses even if he queens before White. Bk6/1P1ppppp/1P6/8/8/1p6/1p1PPPPP/bK6 w - - 0 1 is a draw (1.e4! g5! only moves - or 1.g4 e5 which is the same.)
Comments.UserDisplayName: Hauke Reddmann
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2024-06-21T01:02:32.553Z
Comments.Text: Ah, good point -- I did wonder if this figured into the evaluation.  FWIW it seems this can be done without Bishops: k7/Pp1ppppp/1P6/8/8/1p6/pP1PPPPP/K7
Comments.UserDisplayName: Noam D. Elkies
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2024-06-21T09:32:33.830Z
Comments.Text: Just to clarify - players have or don't have kings?
Comments.UserDisplayName: Matija Sirk
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2024-06-22T08:19:09.777Z
Comments.Text: @MatijaSirk the players don't have kings. The point of the example in the OP (which also confused me at first) is to give a position with kings which is equivalent to 4 pawns versus 4 pawns with no kings, first to queen wins, so that it can be evaluated with a chess engine (since the chess engine will not accept a kingless position).
Comments.UserDisplayName: Flounderer
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2024-06-22T17:00:18.110Z
Comments.Text: @Flounderer: Exactly. Although P.P. *can* (and will) be played with kings by advanced kids. This literarily changes the rules.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Hauke Reddmann
Tags: <analysis><chess-variants><solving>
Title: Is "Pawn Pugilism" won for White or Black?
ThreadText: # Is "Pawn Pugilism" won for White or Black?
  
  (Asked by: username_0 on 2024-06-20)
  
  There might be another established word in English (in German it's "Bauernkloppe") for this training lesson for kids, but the rules are simple: Both sides have only the pawns at their usual places, first one to queen wins. (Stalemate rarely happens and is a draw.)
  
  Is this a win for white or black? (My own verdict: Nearly as hard as "normal" chess. Thus I would be surprised about an actual proof, but someone *might* have built a tablebase already.)
  
  BTW, 4 against 4 is won for White, just enter 1k6/1P2pppp/KP6/PP6/8/8/4PPPP/8 in your engine. (I did when researching and published it as a #11 chess problem.)
  
  **Tags:** analysis, chess-variants, solving
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_1**: Apparently 5 vs. 5 is likewise won for White (k7/P2ppppp/Kp6/bP6/1p6/1P6/3PPPPP/8 b - - 0 1).  
  > **username_0**: @username_1: The setup is somewhat unfair for Black, as he loses even if he queens before White. Bk6/1P1ppppp/1P6/8/8/1p6/1p1PPPPP/bK6 w - - 0 1 is a draw (1.e4! g5! only moves - or 1.g4 e5 which is the same.)  
  > **username_1**: Ah, good point -- I did wonder if this figured into the evaluation.  FWIW it seems this can be done without Bishops: k7/Pp1ppppp/1P6/8/8/1p6/pP1PPPPP/K7  
  > **username_2**: Just to clarify - players have or don't have kings?  
  > **username_3**: @username_2 the players don't have kings. The point of the example in the OP (which also confused me at first) is to give a position with kings which is equivalent to 4 pawns versus 4 pawns with no kings, first to queen wins, so that it can be evaluated with a chess engine (since the chess engine will not accept a kingless position).  
  > **username_0**: @username_3: Exactly. Although P.P. *can* (and will) be played with kings by advanced kids. This literarily changes the rules.  
  
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  ## 0 answers
  
  