Answers.Body: <p>Most Grandmasters will argue that chess is a draw with perfect play from both sides. However, in practice it is shown that white has higher win rates than black, but this is due to the first-move advantage. This is because white technically gains a small advantage from having the first move, and black will equalize with their move. </p>
  
  <p>It is possible that a first-move could cause a disadvantage with perfect play, because despite having perfect information, the black player could potentially be able to counter any strategy white attempts to play. It is more likely however that if one side were to have a forced win, it would be for white.</p>
  
  <p>The answer to this question will not be known for a long time because only in 2012 were <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endgame_tablebase" rel="noreferrer">endgame tablebases</a> able to solve any position with 7 pieces perfectly (including the 2 kings). For comparison of how impressive this feat is, 6 pieces was only solved in 2005. Obviously, this problem is exponential because with more and more pieces, the complexity increases further and further, until eventually the game is solved for 32 pieces. One could argue that the starting position is static so we don't have to consider every combination of 32 pieces on the 64 squares, but the number of possibilities is still enormous and will take a long time to know for certain.</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2023-01-03T08:15:02.203Z
Answers.Text: Ref the last paragraph, we will never have 32-pieces tablebases and this is not just a question of computing time: one of the physical limits is that the number of positions to consider would exceed the number of atoms in the universe...
Answers.UserDisplayName: Evargalo
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2015-09-28T07:32:23.063Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2015-09-28T07:32:23.063Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: mojo1mojo2
Answers.Body: <p>Almost all experts during the last 150 years share the opinion that the game should be a draw with perfect play <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-move_advantage_in_chess#Drawn_with_best_play" rel="nofollow">(link)</a>:</p>
  
  <blockquote>
    <p>The view that a game of chess should end in a draw given best play prevails.</p>
  </blockquote>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2015-09-28T06:19:17.467Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2015-09-28T06:19:17.467Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: Glorfindel
Answers.Body: <p>We have not mathematically solved perfect play in chess yet. However, chess computers represent our best understanding of nearly perfect play, and about equal strength engines overwhelmingly make draws from the starting position. Usually the only way to get a decisive game is to force computers to start from a risky or unbalanced opening, so computer tournament organizers use opening books to test interesting positions.</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2023-01-02T18:13:31.213Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2023-01-02T18:13:31.213Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: qwr
Answers.Body: <p>Of course, with best play, it is a draw.</p>
  
  <p>However for a humourous contrary view, Jonathan Rowson, in his book "Chess for Zebra", quotes English GM Jon Speelman:</p>
  
  <blockquote>
    <p>The initial position is a decisive reciprocal zugzwang and white is
    losing ;-)</p>
  </blockquote>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2015-09-28T11:25:08.520Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2015-09-28T11:25:08.520Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: Brian Towers
Answers.Body: <p>It is the Zermelo's theorem from game theory, which says that a finite 2 person game always has a solution (draw or a winning strategy for black or white).</p>
  <p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zermelo%27s_theorem_(game_theory)" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Zermelo's theorem (game theory)</a></p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2018-07-27T20:49:03.223Z
Answers.Text: Op is asking which one it is.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Herb
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2018-07-27T20:50:35.083Z
Answers.Text: My bad, I wanted to precise top answer... Thanks for report.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Sylvain Julmy
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2018-07-27T20:36:08.900Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2023-01-01T21:34:34.157Z
Answers.LastEditDate: 2023-01-01T21:34:34.157Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: Sylvain Julmy
Body: <p>If there was perfect play from both the colors, will white win because of the first move advantage or will it be a draw?</p>
  
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2018-11-30T23:30:20.083Z
Comments.Text: alternately it could be that black would win because white would make the first mistake.  ;-)  either way, a forced win would certainly be bad for chess as no really good players would likely be willing to play as the losing side.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Michael
Tags: <analysis><theory>
Title: If there was perfect play from both sides, will it be draw or win for one?
ThreadText: # If there was perfect play from both sides, will it be draw or win for one?
  
  (Asked by: username_0 on 2015-09-28)
  
  If there was perfect play from both the colors, will white win because of the first move advantage or will it be a draw?
  
  **Tags:** analysis, theory
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_1**: alternately it could be that black would win because white would make the first mistake.  ;-)  either way, a forced win would certainly be bad for chess as no really good players would likely be willing to play as the losing side.  
  
  ---
  
  ## 5 answers
  
  ### Answer by username_2 on 2015-09-28. Score: 11
  
  Most Grandmasters will argue that chess is a draw with perfect play from both sides. However, in practice it is shown that white has higher win rates than black, but this is due to the first-move advantage. This is because white technically gains a small advantage from having the first move, and black will equalize with their move.
  
  It is possible that a first-move could cause a disadvantage with perfect play, because despite having perfect information, the black player could potentially be able to counter any strategy white attempts to play. It is more likely however that if one side were to have a forced win, it would be for white.
  
  The answer to this question will not be known for a long time because only in 2012 were [endgame tablebases](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endgame_tablebase) able to solve any position with 7 pieces perfectly (including the 2 kings). For comparison of how impressive this feat is, 6 pieces was only solved in 2005. Obviously, this problem is exponential because with more and more pieces, the complexity increases further and further, until eventually the game is solved for 32 pieces. One could argue that the starting position is static so we don't have to consider every combination of 32 pieces on the 64 squares, but the number of possibilities is still enormous and will take a long time to know for certain.
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_3**: Ref the last paragraph, we will never have 32-pieces tablebases and this is not just a question of computing time: one of the physical limits is that the number of positions to consider would exceed the number of atoms in the universe...  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_4 on 2015-09-28. Score: 4
  
  Almost all experts during the last 150 years share the opinion that the game should be a draw with perfect play [(link)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-move_advantage_in_chess#Drawn_with_best_play):
  
  > The view that a game of chess should end in a draw given best play prevails.
  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_5 on 2023-01-02. Score: 3
  
  We have not mathematically solved perfect play in chess yet. However, chess computers represent our best understanding of nearly perfect play, and about equal strength engines overwhelmingly make draws from the starting position. Usually the only way to get a decisive game is to force computers to start from a risky or unbalanced opening, so computer tournament organizers use opening books to test interesting positions.
  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_6 on 2015-09-28. Score: 0
  
  Of course, with best play, it is a draw.
  
  However for a humourous contrary view, Jonathan Rowson, in his book "Chess for Zebra", quotes English GM Jon Speelman:
  
  > The initial position is a decisive reciprocal zugzwang and white is
  > losing ;-)
  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_7 on 2018-07-27. Score: 0
  
  It is the Zermelo's theorem from game theory, which says that a finite 2 person game always has a solution (draw or a winning strategy for black or white).
  
  [Zermelo's theorem (game theory)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zermelo%27s_theorem_(game_theory))
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_8**: Op is asking which one it is.  
  > **username_7**: My bad, I wanted to precise top answer... Thanks for report.  
  
  ---
  
  