Answers.Body: <p>I think that 4.Bc4 is more critical because it takes advantage of the weak white squares, mainly of the dangerous diagonal a2-g8. Furthermore, white will be castling in one move while black will need at least 3 moves to bring his king to safety. Notice that Bc4 prevents black from short-castle.</p>
  <p>Meanwhile, 4.d4 is a dubious move because whenever the center is closed we have to ask ourselves &quot;which player can attack first the base of the pawn chain?&quot;. In this case it is clear that ...Ne7-...f5 arrive quite quickly, and the knight on f3 prevent playing pawn to f3, so after ...f5 white's center will enter on huge problems. On the other hand, c4-Be3-c5 is less dangerous as the d6 pawn is protected by the c7 pawn.</p>
  <p>Anyhow, I don't think you have to remember this position as 3...f6 looks like at least a dubious move from black as it weakens many squares. I'd like to remember a quote from Ben Finegold &quot;f pawn stands for forget about it&quot;. More important would be to examine lines as 3...Nd7(philidor), 3...Nc6 (scotch), 3...exd4 (philidor exchange), 3...f5(philidor countergambit). I hope I helped. Best regards!</p>
  
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Answers.Text: When you said "whenever the center is closed we have to ask ourselves "which player can attack first the base of the pawn chain?"" it unlocked something new for me, I had never heard of that but it makes a lot of sense! Thanks.
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Answers.Body: <p>To the beautiful answers already given I want to add the notion of “mobility”, specially of pawn centers. A pawn center is stronger if it has mobility. With Pawn on d4, White has, at each turn the options of taking or advancing. This black has to reckon with constantly. By Playing f6 Black has taken away from themselves the option of Nf6 to push pressure on e4 pawn. This allows White to maintain this center for a long time (or change it at opportune moment).</p>
  <p>It is Black that must seek a way to compel White to decide the tension in center. By Playing d5 we give Black a sigh of relief. White has lost a lot of its mobility in center and revealed key information to black who can now decide on the placement of their pieces. Taking one square away from one piece is so little a gain for losing that much of pressure on Black’s position.</p>
  <p>If you see in King’s Indian tyoe structure that White pushes d5, it is (1) because maintaining the tension is impractical and/or (2) the adnace d5 comes with a tempo on the N on c6.</p>
  <p>So, back to how to know these types of subtelties? Ask yourself who is in need of doing something, something drastic, who has to do break out of the tension and who is enjoying it? Another tip is to not focus on one element in a position. Pay attention to dynamic considerations as well as longterm ones. Do not pick a plan and insist on justifying why it is the only right one! Do not let “Principles” restrict you. Use tham as guide but not mandates.</p>
  
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Answers.Body: <p>David has already explained the drawbacks of pushing d5 with respect to the pawn structure.</p>
  <p>But dynamic aspects are IMO more important here. 3....f6 was a terrible move. It doesn't develop a piece and weakens the king. White should be trying to maximally exploit the development advantage and the unsafe black king. Usually you don't want to close the position in such a situation.</p>
  <p>4.d5 is bad because it</p>
  <ul>
  <li>does not develop a piece (i.e. gives black time to breathe)</li>
  <li>takes away from white the option of opening the d-file later</li>
  <li>closes the diagonal a2-g8, which is the very diagonal black weakened by playing f6 and could be exploited by a bishop on c4</li>
  </ul>
  <p>An argument for 4.d5 could be that the natural pawn break f5 now loses a tempo for black, who has already played f6, and also the space gain sometimes compensates for the pawn chain issues that David mentions. So it's not always wrong to close the center like this, it's just that the position is so good that you have to look for an immediate win instead of a pleasant game with more space.</p>
  <blockquote>
  <p>Do we just prefer getting pieces out rather than preventing Black from developing?</p>
  </blockquote>
  <p>From my general experience of studying opening theory, the situations where it is justified to spend a tempo just to disturb black's development are pretty rare. I think the reason is that there are usually many ways to develop, and having to develop in a less optimal way (e.g. putting your knight to d7 instead of c6) is seldom worth a whole tempo.</p>
  <p>(I've used the word &quot;tempo&quot; which might not be familiar to you. &quot;A tempo&quot; is chess terminology, and means more or less a move. Playing f6 and then f5 &quot;loses a tempo&quot; because you've done something using two moves which you could have done using only one move. If you play 4.d5 to hamper black's development, you've &quot;spent a tempo&quot; because 4.d5 does not help your own development.)</p>
  
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Answers.Body: <p>The pawn on d5 really gets in the way of White's plan. The bishop on c4 stops castling and creates trouble on the kingside if the pawn is still on d4.</p>
  <p>By pushing d5, Black can eventually target the base of White's pawn chain with an eventual ...f5 push (something that is pretty much out of question if there's a pawn on d4). It's true that ...Nc6 isn't possible anymore but the knight has a much better square now on c5 (with perhaps the help of an ...a5 push to stop b4 by White).</p>
  <p>Black isn't really interested in taking on d4, so White is losing the option to take on e5 later on. Finally, White should use this turn to develop a piece and prepare for castling, rather than wasting a move making a pawn push that doesn't even offer any clear benefit on its own.</p>
  
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Answers.Text: Thanks, can you explain a bit more why the f5 push is pretty much out of question if there's a pawn on d4? I'm not sure I understand.
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Answers.Text: @FluidMechanicsPotentialFlows I can't see how Black could keep the e5 pawn defended in that scenario and it would give White a chance to open up the center in a dangerous way with the Black king most likely still in the middle (how is he going to manage to castle?)
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Answers.Text: Ahhh I see thank you for making it clearer for me!
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Body: <p>Compare this position:</p>
  <pre><code>[fen &quot;&quot;]
  [title &quot;&quot;]
  [startply &quot;7&quot;]
  
  1.e4 e5 2.d4 d6 3.Nf3 f6 4.Bc4 *
  </code></pre>
  <p>And this one:</p>
  <pre><code>[fen &quot;&quot;]
  [title &quot;&quot;]
  [startply &quot;7&quot;]
  
  1.e4 e5 2.d4 d6 3.Nf3 f6 4.d5 *
  </code></pre>
  <p>Stockfish 16.1 seems to prefer the first one by a big margin (+1.61 vs +0.94) but I'm not sure if I understand. The pawn on d5 seems great to prevent Nc6. I don't see anything wrong with Bc4, but I'm just surprised as to the &quot;power&quot; of Bc4 (Be3 seems to be liked too).</p>
  <p>Would there be a simple explanation for me to remember the best move for white in that position? Do we just prefer getting pieces out rather than preventing Black from developing? I don't see the &quot;key principle&quot; here that makes the difference or the tactical idea.</p>
  
Tags: <opening>
Title: Why is putting the pawn to d5 not so good here?
ThreadText: # Why is putting the pawn to d5 not so good here?
  
  (Asked by: username_0 on 2024-07-13)
  
  Compare this position:
  
  ```
  [fen ""]
  [title ""]
  [startply "7"]
  
  1.e4 e5 2.d4 d6 3.Nf3 f6 4.Bc4 *
  
  ```
  
  And this one:
  
  ```
  [fen ""]
  [title ""]
  [startply "7"]
  
  1.e4 e5 2.d4 d6 3.Nf3 f6 4.d5 *
  
  ```
  
  Stockfish 16.1 seems to prefer the first one by a big margin (+1.61 vs +0.94) but I'm not sure if I understand. The pawn on d5 seems great to prevent Nc6. I don't see anything wrong with Bc4, but I'm just surprised as to the "power" of Bc4 (Be3 seems to be liked too).
  
  Would there be a simple explanation for me to remember the best move for white in that position? Do we just prefer getting pieces out rather than preventing Black from developing? I don't see the "key principle" here that makes the difference or the tactical idea.
  
  **Tags:** opening
  
  
  ---
  
  ## 4 answers
  
  ### Answer by username_4 on 2024-07-13. Score: 6 | Accepted answer
  
  The pawn on d5 really gets in the way of White's plan. The bishop on c4 stops castling and creates trouble on the kingside if the pawn is still on d4.
  
  By pushing d5, Black can eventually target the base of White's pawn chain with an eventual ...f5 push (something that is pretty much out of question if there's a pawn on d4). It's true that ...Nc6 isn't possible anymore but the knight has a much better square now on c5 (with perhaps the help of an ...a5 push to stop b4 by White).
  
  Black isn't really interested in taking on d4, so White is losing the option to take on e5 later on. Finally, White should use this turn to develop a piece and prepare for castling, rather than wasting a move making a pawn push that doesn't even offer any clear benefit on its own.
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_0**: Thanks, can you explain a bit more why the f5 push is pretty much out of question if there's a pawn on d4? I'm not sure I understand.  
  > **username_4**: @username_0 I can't see how Black could keep the e5 pawn defended in that scenario and it would give White a chance to open up the center in a dangerous way with the Black king most likely still in the middle (how is he going to manage to castle?)  
  > **username_0**: Ahhh I see thank you for making it clearer for me!  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_1 on 2024-07-14. Score: 2
  
  I think that 4.Bc4 is more critical because it takes advantage of the weak white squares, mainly of the dangerous diagonal a2-g8. Furthermore, white will be castling in one move while black will need at least 3 moves to bring his king to safety. Notice that Bc4 prevents black from short-castle.
  
  Meanwhile, 4.d4 is a dubious move because whenever the center is closed we have to ask ourselves "which player can attack first the base of the pawn chain?". In this case it is clear that ...Ne7-...f5 arrive quite quickly, and the knight on f3 prevent playing pawn to f3, so after ...f5 white's center will enter on huge problems. On the other hand, c4-Be3-c5 is less dangerous as the d6 pawn is protected by the c7 pawn.
  
  Anyhow, I don't think you have to remember this position as 3...f6 looks like at least a dubious move from black as it weakens many squares. I'd like to remember a quote from Ben Finegold "f pawn stands for forget about it". More important would be to examine lines as 3...Nd7(philidor), 3...Nc6 (scotch), 3...exd4 (philidor exchange), 3...f5(philidor countergambit). I hope I helped. Best regards!
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_0**: When you said "whenever the center is closed we have to ask ourselves "which player can attack first the base of the pawn chain?"" it unlocked something new for me, I had never heard of that but it makes a lot of sense! Thanks.  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_2 on 2024-07-14. Score: 1
  
  To the beautiful answers already given I want to add the notion of “mobility”, specially of pawn centers. A pawn center is stronger if it has mobility. With Pawn on d4, White has, at each turn the options of taking or advancing. This black has to reckon with constantly. By Playing f6 Black has taken away from themselves the option of Nf6 to push pressure on e4 pawn. This allows White to maintain this center for a long time (or change it at opportune moment).
  
  It is Black that must seek a way to compel White to decide the tension in center. By Playing d5 we give Black a sigh of relief. White has lost a lot of its mobility in center and revealed key information to black who can now decide on the placement of their pieces. Taking one square away from one piece is so little a gain for losing that much of pressure on Black’s position.
  
  If you see in King’s Indian tyoe structure that White pushes d5, it is (1) because maintaining the tension is impractical and/or (2) the adnace d5 comes with a tempo on the N on c6.
  
  So, back to how to know these types of subtelties? Ask yourself who is in need of doing something, something drastic, who has to do break out of the tension and who is enjoying it? Another tip is to not focus on one element in a position. Pay attention to dynamic considerations as well as longterm ones. Do not pick a plan and insist on justifying why it is the only right one! Do not let “Principles” restrict you. Use tham as guide but not mandates.
  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_3 on 2024-07-14. Score: 1
  
  username_4 has already explained the drawbacks of pushing d5 with respect to the pawn structure.
  
  But dynamic aspects are IMO more important here. 3....f6 was a terrible move. It doesn't develop a piece and weakens the king. White should be trying to maximally exploit the development advantage and the unsafe black king. Usually you don't want to close the position in such a situation.
  
  4.d5 is bad because it
  
  * does not develop a piece (i.e. gives black time to breathe)
  * takes away from white the option of opening the d-file later
  * closes the diagonal a2-g8, which is the very diagonal black weakened by playing f6 and could be exploited by a bishop on c4
  
  An argument for 4.d5 could be that the natural pawn break f5 now loses a tempo for black, who has already played f6, and also the space gain sometimes compensates for the pawn chain issues that username_4 mentions. So it's not always wrong to close the center like this, it's just that the position is so good that you have to look for an immediate win instead of a pleasant game with more space.
  
  > Do we just prefer getting pieces out rather than preventing Black from developing?
  
  From my general experience of studying opening theory, the situations where it is justified to spend a tempo just to disturb black's development are pretty rare. I think the reason is that there are usually many ways to develop, and having to develop in a less optimal way (e.g. putting your knight to d7 instead of c6) is seldom worth a whole tempo.
  
  (I've used the word "tempo" which might not be familiar to you. "A tempo" is chess terminology, and means more or less a move. Playing f6 and then f5 "loses a tempo" because you've done something using two moves which you could have done using only one move. If you play 4.d5 to hamper black's development, you've "spent a tempo" because 4.d5 does not help your own development.)
  
  
  ---
  
  