Answers.Body: <p>Points in chess mean nothing with respect to the actual play of the game with regards to the rules. They are only a reference to give players a general sense of what value each piece has relative to the next piece.</p>
  
  <p>In essence, if you lose your queen, 9 points, but promote a pawn, you gain 9 points minus one for the pawn, so you would still be down one in material, but again, that is just a relative reference to give you an idea where you stand.</p>
  
  <p>These relative point values are estimates, and depending on who you talk to, they may vary. Here is a list of various values that strong players have assigned over the years <a href="https://www.chess.com/article/view/chess-piece-value" rel="noreferrer">here</a>. Bobby Fischer said that the bishop was worth 3.25 because he loved bishops.</p>
  
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Answers.Text: we play with a time limit at school, and the winner is decided based on points (ex. pawn 1, rook 5, knight 3).
Answers.UserDisplayName: Colin Ladd
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Answers.Text: @Colin Ladd:  Ah - if that's the case, probably the only person who can answer the underlying question is your chess coach or teacher at school.  The actual rules of chess don't say anything about point values of pieces, and the FIDE rules (or USCF rules, if you're in the United States) provide that if a player runs out of time, that player simply loses the game (with a few exception cases), regardless of the material on the board.
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Answers.Text: Hi Colin, then to be frank, that is not really chess, but it would qualify as a chess variant. A chess variant is a game that is similar, and played on a board with normal pieces, but varies from the traditional rules. In your described variant, I would not count what a player takes off the board, but rather what the players have on the board at any given time. So again, in the case that you described, the player who lost a queen but gains one back regains 8 points (9 minus the exchanged pawn). Of course, you can play however you like in such a setting.
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Answers.Text: @patbarron In that case I suspect the only points that matter are captured points, but that would mean points can't be lost. Perhaps it's about the difference in points, in which case a queen for a queen would end up as 0 difference. You're absolutely correct that since this is a variant the only one who can tell is the teacher at school (whoever thought up the tournament and its rules).
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Answers.Text: @ColinLadd I would suspect, then, that you're counting points on the board, not points captured (points captured would make no sense at all in that context). That was a common way to adjudicate unfinished club games years ago, not done so much now. The process varied from club to club, but was most often simply "Is there a forced win on the board for one side? No? Then who has the most material?"
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Answers.Text: I can remember playing a variant where my points were the ones I had captured plus the ones I hadn’t lost.
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Answers.Text: @ColinLadd: You can win that game by capturing _anything_ just after your opponent runs out of time, then calling them on time so they don't have a chance to recapture.  Or if the teacher calls the time automatically when time runs out, by capturing anything just as your own time runs out.  Out of curiosity, how many points is the king worth?
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Answers.Text: @BlueRaja-DannyPflughoeft As far as the king, I would assume that checkmate still wins the game, so you do not have to worry about the kings since otherwise, both sides will always have a king, so they negate each other no matter the value.
Answers.UserDisplayName: PhishMaster
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Answers.Text: @BlueRaja-DannyPflughoeft It sounds like there's a single fixed time limit for the whole game, not per person.
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Answers.Body: <p>As has been said, in ordinary chess the points do not count, and the only person who can definitively tell you your school's rules is your chess coach.</p>
  
  <p>But that said, the purpose of looking at the points is to be a quick way to answer the question, "who is winning this game?" So if you promote, it makes sense to take away those points (and give him a point for a pawn instead, since that pawn is now off the board.) </p>
  
  <p>Let's say you have a pawn and your opponent has a rook. Your opponent is winning the game, because a rook is stronger than a pawn. But if you promote the pawn to a queen, now you are winning the game, not your opponent; you have a queen and they have a rook, and a queen is stronger than a rook. It wouldn't make sense to declare them the winner just because your queen is a promoted one. You shouldn't have to think back the whole game to remember what was taken at the time; you should be able to just look at what's on the board at the end.</p>
  
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Answers.UserDisplayName: D M
Answers.Body: <p>Material, aka “points,” is just one factor in deciding who is ahead.  There is time, space, material, position, tactics, zugzwang and other things that will determine who is doing better.</p>
  
  <p>Your school needs to stop counting points as it is, by itself, meaningless. </p>
  
  <p>If you have a time limit, then limit the game time so that it finishes before the limit. Otherwise, some player will gain a pawn and then just sit to win by one point.  So get clocks and use them to limit the time each player can take so the game ends by the time of your period that you have to play. </p>
  
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Answers.Text: That would be ideal, but not all school clubs have the budget to pay for enough chess clocks for everyone.
Answers.UserDisplayName: D M
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Answers.Text: @DM In higher grades it’s rather likely at least one in two students wil have a smartphone that can run a free chess clock app. This kind of clock will be slightly unorthodox but considering the rules they are using now I don’t think they would mind.
Answers.UserDisplayName: 11684
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Answers.Text: @11684 That would work, so long as the school allows phones.
Answers.UserDisplayName: D M
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Answers.Text: Have someone use a timer to ring in ten seconds.  Reset it every ring.  You must move only on the ring.  Or have a person hit a bell every ten seconds.  whatever but money is not a real factor.
Answers.UserDisplayName: edwina oliver
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Answers.Text: I think it's more useful to teach beginners to take their time to think and choose the winner in a suboptimal way if there's no time, than to teach beginners to move quickly just to get a proper winner.
Answers.UserDisplayName: JiK
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Answers.Text: You may think that but my experience is that being forced to take time to think , albeit only ten seconds, forces one to actually think not just make an impulsive move, and also trains the person to better see what is happening.  Just playing slow games when one does not know what they are really doing does not cause improvement.  Playing many faster games where they look like movies, unlike current blitz type games, because of the slow and steady moves made teaches a lot more.
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Answers.UserDisplayName: edwina oliver
Answers.Body: <p>As others have pointed out, the points values themselves are merely an initial value to get you started.  Over many many years, people have found that <em>generally</em> trading three pawns for a bishop is a fair trade.</p>
  
  <p>The point values are just a tool to get you started.  They're a way for you to not make mistakes by trading valuable pieces for less valuable pieces.  But really, its the entire position that matters.</p>
  
  <p>Consider this hypothetical.  Your opponent has a pawn on the 7th rank.  On the next turn, they can promote it to a queen.  You have the potential to trade a rook for that pawn.  Is it a good trade?  The "5 points for a rook" versus "1 point for a pawn" fails to account for the position.  In this intentionally extreme example, trading a rook for a pawn may be a great trade, because it puts you in a better position.</p>
  
  <p>Indeed, it can be even more extreme.  You can construct some clever back-rank mate problems where a pawn promoting to a queen or a rook is checkmate.  If you can't get out of it otherwise, it would be worth sacrificing three, four, or even five whole pieces just to prevent that pawn from promoting.  Checkmate trumps any and all point calculations, always.</p>
  
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Answers.CreationDate: 2020-01-19T21:29:26.203Z
Answers.Text: What relevance has this got to the question? The rules of the competition are that points decide the outcome if time expires. The OP wants to know whether a promoted piece counts as that piece value or as its original pawn value. This response provides nothing to assist with that determination.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Nij
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Answers.Text: @Nij Looks like the OP edited the question to invalidate all of the existing answers.  My answer was based on when the question was simply about the point value of pieces.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Cort Ammon
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Answers.Text: The OP hasn't edited their question. Other people have done, based on either comments or chat. But that's irrelevant - this response doesn't even answer the original question at all.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Nij
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Answers.LastActivityDate: 2020-01-18T16:09:27.277Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: Cort Ammon
Body: <p>At my school, we play with a time limit, and the winner is decided based on points (for example, a pawn is 1, a rook 5, a knight 3).</p>
  
  <p>Let's say my queen is taken by my opponent, scoring 9 points. If I get my pawn to the other end and exchange it for a queen, do they lose those points?</p>
  
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2020-01-18T04:43:34.890Z
Comments.Text: While not a hard and fast rule, if one player was able to get a pawn to the back rank and promote it to a queen, that player is probably in a position to win, since they have a queen and probably another major piece to escort it down the board. Expect a checkmate in a few moves from there.
Comments.UserDisplayName: corsiKa
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Comments.CreationDate: 2020-01-19T22:30:44.847Z
Comments.Text: Note: On stack exchange, we prefer to avoid edits which invalidate the answers.  It makes it hard to determine which answers were good and bad without diving into the history to see which version of the question was being answered.  If all of the answers miss the point you were seeking to have answered, its better to start a new question.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Cort Ammon
Tags: <rules><point-value>
Title: When a game is cut short and the winner is determined by material, do points still count if they're from promoted pawns?
ThreadText: # When a game is cut short and the winner is determined by material, do points still count if they're from promoted pawns?
  
  (Asked by: username_0 on 2020-01-16)
  
  At my school, we play with a time limit, and the winner is decided based on points (for example, a pawn is 1, a rook 5, a knight 3).
  
  Let's say my queen is taken by my opponent, scoring 9 points. If I get my pawn to the other end and exchange it for a queen, do they lose those points?
  
  **Tags:** rules, point-value
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_1**: While not a hard and fast rule, if one player was able to get a pawn to the back rank and promote it to a queen, that player is probably in a position to win, since they have a queen and probably another major piece to escort it down the board. Expect a checkmate in a few moves from there.  
  > **username_2**: Note: On stack exchange, we prefer to avoid edits which invalidate the answers.  It makes it hard to determine which answers were good and bad without diving into the history to see which version of the question was being answered.  If all of the answers miss the point you were seeking to have answered, its better to start a new question.  
  
  ---
  
  ## 4 answers
  
  ### Answer by username_3 on 2020-01-16. Score: 24
  
  Points in chess mean nothing with respect to the actual play of the game with regards to the rules. They are only a reference to give players a general sense of what value each piece has relative to the next piece.
  
  In essence, if you lose your queen, 9 points, but promote a pawn, you gain 9 points minus one for the pawn, so you would still be down one in material, but again, that is just a relative reference to give you an idea where you stand.
  
  These relative point values are estimates, and depending on who you talk to, they may vary. Here is a list of various values that strong players have assigned over the years [here](https://www.chess.com/article/view/chess-piece-value). Bobby Fischer said that the bishop was worth 3.25 because he loved bishops.
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_0**: we play with a time limit at school, and the winner is decided based on points (ex. pawn 1, rook 5, knight 3).  
  > **username_4**: @username_0:  Ah - if that's the case, probably the only person who can answer the underlying question is your chess coach or teacher at school.  The actual rules of chess don't say anything about point values of pieces, and the FIDE rules (or USCF rules, if you're in the United States) provide that if a player runs out of time, that player simply loses the game (with a few exception cases), regardless of the material on the board.  
  > **username_3**: Hi username_0, then to be frank, that is not really chess, but it would qualify as a chess variant. A chess variant is a game that is similar, and played on a board with normal pieces, but varies from the traditional rules. In your described variant, I would not count what a player takes off the board, but rather what the players have on the board at any given time. So again, in the case that you described, the player who lost a queen but gains one back regains 8 points (9 minus the exchanged pawn). Of course, you can play however you like in such a setting.  
  > **username_5**: @username_4 In that case I suspect the only points that matter are captured points, but that would mean points can't be lost. Perhaps it's about the difference in points, in which case a queen for a queen would end up as 0 difference. You're absolutely correct that since this is a variant the only one who can tell is the teacher at school (whoever thought up the tournament and its rules).  
  > **username_6**: @username_0 I would suspect, then, that you're counting points on the board, not points captured (points captured would make no sense at all in that context). That was a common way to adjudicate unfinished club games years ago, not done so much now. The process varied from club to club, but was most often simply "Is there a forced win on the board for one side? No? Then who has the most material?"  
  > **username_7**: I can remember playing a variant where my points were the ones I had captured plus the ones I hadn’t lost.  
  > **username_8**: @username_0: You can win that game by capturing _anything_ just after your opponent runs out of time, then calling them on time so they don't have a chance to recapture.  Or if the teacher calls the time automatically when time runs out, by capturing anything just as your own time runs out.  Out of curiosity, how many points is the king worth?  
  > **username_3**: @username_8 As far as the king, I would assume that checkmate still wins the game, so you do not have to worry about the kings since otherwise, both sides will always have a king, so they negate each other no matter the value.  
  > **username_9**: @username_8 It sounds like there's a single fixed time limit for the whole game, not per person.  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_10 on 2020-01-16. Score: 14
  
  As has been said, in ordinary chess the points do not count, and the only person who can definitively tell you your school's rules is your chess coach.
  
  But that said, the purpose of looking at the points is to be a quick way to answer the question, "who is winning this game?" So if you promote, it makes sense to take away those points (and give him a point for a pawn instead, since that pawn is now off the board.)
  
  Let's say you have a pawn and your opponent has a rook. Your opponent is winning the game, because a rook is stronger than a pawn. But if you promote the pawn to a queen, now you are winning the game, not your opponent; you have a queen and they have a rook, and a queen is stronger than a rook. It wouldn't make sense to declare them the winner just because your queen is a promoted one. You shouldn't have to think back the whole game to remember what was taken at the time; you should be able to just look at what's on the board at the end.
  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_11 on 2020-01-16. Score: 3
  
  Material, aka “points,” is just one factor in deciding who is ahead. There is time, space, material, position, tactics, zugzwang and other things that will determine who is doing better.
  
  Your school needs to stop counting points as it is, by itself, meaningless.
  
  If you have a time limit, then limit the game time so that it finishes before the limit. Otherwise, some player will gain a pawn and then just sit to win by one point. So get clocks and use them to limit the time each player can take so the game ends by the time of your period that you have to play.
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_10**: That would be ideal, but not all school clubs have the budget to pay for enough chess clocks for everyone.  
  > **username_12**: @DM In higher grades it’s rather likely at least one in two students wil have a smartphone that can run a free chess clock app. This kind of clock will be slightly unorthodox but considering the rules they are using now I don’t think they would mind.  
  > **username_10**: @username_12 That would work, so long as the school allows phones.  
  > **username_11**: Have someone use a timer to ring in ten seconds.  Reset it every ring.  You must move only on the ring.  Or have a person hit a bell every ten seconds.  whatever but money is not a real factor.  
  > **username_13**: I think it's more useful to teach beginners to take their time to think and choose the winner in a suboptimal way if there's no time, than to teach beginners to move quickly just to get a proper winner.  
  > **username_11**: You may think that but my experience is that being forced to take time to think , albeit only ten seconds, forces one to actually think not just make an impulsive move, and also trains the person to better see what is happening.  Just playing slow games when one does not know what they are really doing does not cause improvement.  Playing many faster games where they look like movies, unlike current blitz type games, because of the slow and steady moves made teaches a lot more.  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_2 on 2020-01-18. Score: 2
  
  As others have pointed out, the points values themselves are merely an initial value to get you started. Over many many years, people have found that *generally* trading three pawns for a bishop is a fair trade.
  
  The point values are just a tool to get you started. They're a way for you to not make mistakes by trading valuable pieces for less valuable pieces. But really, its the entire position that matters.
  
  Consider this hypothetical. Your opponent has a pawn on the 7th rank. On the next turn, they can promote it to a queen. You have the potential to trade a rook for that pawn. Is it a good trade? The "5 points for a rook" versus "1 point for a pawn" fails to account for the position. In this intentionally extreme example, trading a rook for a pawn may be a great trade, because it puts you in a better position.
  
  Indeed, it can be even more extreme. You can construct some clever back-rank mate problems where a pawn promoting to a queen or a rook is checkmate. If you can't get out of it otherwise, it would be worth sacrificing three, four, or even five whole pieces just to prevent that pawn from promoting. Checkmate trumps any and all point calculations, always.
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_14**: What relevance has this got to the question? The rules of the competition are that points decide the outcome if time expires. The OP wants to know whether a promoted piece counts as that piece value or as its original pawn value. This response provides nothing to assist with that determination.  
  > **username_2**: @username_14 Looks like the OP edited the question to invalidate all of the existing answers.  My answer was based on when the question was simply about the point value of pieces.  
  > **username_14**: The OP hasn't edited their question. Other people have done, based on either comments or chat. But that's irrelevant - this response doesn't even answer the original question at all.  
  
  ---
  
  