Answers.Body: <p>The early Nd2 gives some breathing room for your a1 rook</p>
  <pre><code>       [FEN &quot;&quot;]
         1. d4 d5 2. Bf4 Nf6 3. e3 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Qb6 6. Qb3 c4 7. Qc2 Bf5 8. Qc1 (5. Nd2 Qb6 6. Qb3 c4 7. Qc2 g6 8. e4)
  </code></pre>
  <p>Notice how black cannot easily harass your queen and get a lead in development with Bf5 in the early Nd2 case</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2021-10-09T11:18:03.927Z
Answers.Text: Sure, but that's why I usually go Nf3-Nd2 if Black has the potential of going for the early Qb6 line.
Answers.UserDisplayName: James Ko
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2021-10-09T08:37:44.587Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2021-10-09T08:37:44.587Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: cmgchess
Answers.Body: <p>Delaying the development of the Ng1 sometimes allow f2-f4, hoping to reach a perfect construction that Black usually avoids why the &quot;normal&quot; move order:</p>
  <pre><code>       [FEN &quot;&quot;]
         1. d4 d5 2. Bf4 Nf6 3. e3 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Bd3 (5. Nf3 e6 (5...Qb6) 6. Bd3 Bd6 7. Bg3 O-O 8. Nbd2 cxd4 9. exd4 Dc7 {prevents Ne5}) (5. Nd2 Bf5!?) e6 6. Nd2 Bd6 7.Bg3 O-O 8. f4!? Qc7 9. Ngf3 {followed by Ne5}
  </code></pre>
  <p>This shape with a Ne5 supported by the pawns on d4 and f4 is often attributed to Pillsbury and is very appreciated by London System players.</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2023-07-21T12:14:01.017Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2023-07-21T12:14:01.017Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: Evargalo
Body: <p>The standard London System consists of the setup moves: d4, Bf4, e3, Nf3, Nbd2, c3, Bd3. I'm wondering about the nuances of what the most accurate move order is to play it in. Here are some of my thoughts:</p>
  <p>Some people like reaching the London via 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3, but I like playing 2.Bf4; that way, you can go for the more aggressive setup with 3.Nc3 against King's Indian players, potentially tricking them into a Pirc.</p>
  <p>Against people who play symmetrically, ie. 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 Bf5, I like playing an early c4 instead of c3 to break symmetry.</p>
  <p>If White plays Nf3 early, Black can play a combination of Nc6-Nh5 to harass / potentially trap the London bishop (since the queen has lost vision of h5) and force it to move off its natural diagonal, which can be annoying.</p>
  <pre><code>    [FEN &quot;&quot;]
  
      1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 c5 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Nbd2 Nh5
  </code></pre>
  <p>If Black follows the main line setup with d5/Nf6/c5/Nc6/Qb6, it seems more accurate to play Nbd2 before c3, in case Black decides to enter the sharp gambit lines with dxc5 / Qxb2.</p>
  <pre><code>    [FEN &quot;&quot;]
  
      1. d4 d5 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 c5 4.Nf3 Nc6 5. Nbd2 Qb6 6.dxc5 Qxb2 7.Rb1
  </code></pre>
  <p>In the main line, most masters seem to prefer the move order with d4-Bf4-e3-c3-Nd2; I'm not sure why this is.</p>
  <pre><code>    [FEN &quot;&quot;]
  
      1. d4 d5 2. Bf4 Nf6 3. e3 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nd2
  </code></pre>
  <p>Why do masters prefer the above move order, and what other nuances am I missing from my points here?</p>
  
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2021-10-09T08:22:08.397Z
Comments.Text: I'll just note that as a Pirc (but not KI) player I very much enjoy that transposition ... Make sure you understand it!
Comments.UserDisplayName: Ian Bush
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2021-10-09T10:14:11.483Z
Comments.Text: Incidentally, I also play this move order although I played it at least a decade before the London System even got a name :-) (The most annoying thing with Bf4 is a Q attack on b2.)
Comments.UserDisplayName: Hauke Reddmann
Tags: <opening><london-system>
Title: London system move order
ThreadText: # London system move order
  
  (Asked by: username_0 on 2021-10-09)
  
  The standard London System consists of the setup moves: d4, Bf4, e3, Nf3, Nbd2, c3, Bd3. I'm wondering about the nuances of what the most accurate move order is to play it in. Here are some of my thoughts:
  
  Some people like reaching the London via 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nf3, but I like playing 2.Bf4; that way, you can go for the more aggressive setup with 3.Nc3 against King's Indian players, potentially tricking them into a Pirc.
  
  Against people who play symmetrically, ie. 1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 Bf5, I like playing an early c4 instead of c3 to break symmetry.
  
  If White plays Nf3 early, Black can play a combination of Nc6-Nh5 to harass / potentially trap the London bishop (since the queen has lost vision of h5) and force it to move off its natural diagonal, which can be annoying.
  
  ```
      [FEN ""]
  
      1.d4 d5 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 c5 4.Nf3 Nc6 5.Nbd2 Nh5
  
  ```
  
  If Black follows the main line setup with d5/Nf6/c5/Nc6/Qb6, it seems more accurate to play Nbd2 before c3, in case Black decides to enter the sharp gambit lines with dxc5 / Qxb2.
  
  ```
      [FEN ""]
  
      1. d4 d5 2.Bf4 Nf6 3.e3 c5 4.Nf3 Nc6 5. Nbd2 Qb6 6.dxc5 Qxb2 7.Rb1
  
  ```
  
  In the main line, most masters seem to prefer the move order with d4-Bf4-e3-c3-Nd2; I'm not sure why this is.
  
  ```
      [FEN ""]
  
      1. d4 d5 2. Bf4 Nf6 3. e3 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nd2
  
  ```
  
  Why do masters prefer the above move order, and what other nuances am I missing from my points here?
  
  **Tags:** opening, london-system
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_1**: I'll just note that as a Pirc (but not KI) player I very much enjoy that transposition ... Make sure you understand it!  
  > **username_2**: Incidentally, I also play this move order although I played it at least a decade before the London System even got a name :-) (The most annoying thing with Bf4 is a Q attack on b2.)  
  
  ---
  
  ## 2 answers
  
  ### Answer by username_3 on 2021-10-09. Score: 3
  
  The early Nd2 gives some breathing room for your a1 rook
  
  ```
         [FEN ""]
         1. d4 d5 2. Bf4 Nf6 3. e3 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Nf3 Qb6 6. Qb3 c4 7. Qc2 Bf5 8. Qc1 (5. Nd2 Qb6 6. Qb3 c4 7. Qc2 g6 8. e4)
  
  ```
  
  Notice how black cannot easily harass your queen and get a lead in development with Bf5 in the early Nd2 case
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_0**: Sure, but that's why I usually go Nf3-Nd2 if Black has the potential of going for the early Qb6 line.  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_4 on 2023-07-21. Score: 0
  
  Delaying the development of the Ng1 sometimes allow f2-f4, hoping to reach a perfect construction that Black usually avoids why the "normal" move order:
  
  ```
         [FEN ""]
         1. d4 d5 2. Bf4 Nf6 3. e3 c5 4. c3 Nc6 5. Bd3 (5. Nf3 e6 (5...Qb6) 6. Bd3 Bd6 7. Bg3 O-O 8. Nbd2 cxd4 9. exd4 Dc7 {prevents Ne5}) (5. Nd2 Bf5!?) e6 6. Nd2 Bd6 7.Bg3 O-O 8. f4!? Qc7 9. Ngf3 {followed by Ne5}
  
  ```
  
  This shape with a Ne5 supported by the pawns on d4 and f4 is often attributed to Pillsbury and is very appreciated by London System players.
  
  
  ---
  
  