Answers.Body: <p>Generally, the only reason running a chess engine at less than maximum power are time constraints or if you want to give yourself a chance to win, though in the latter case I'd still prefer to play human players instead.</p>
  
  <p>Regarding the use of a chess engine <strong>to analyze the position</strong> in an opening in order <strong>to learn a chess opening</strong> I am wondering how you are going to practically do this? I mean, the engine will give you only a certain sequence of moves which it considers best play for both sides. It will not teach you the ideas/plans behind an opening which is the most important part and something which you can rely on if your opponent for instance does not play the expected move. It will not teach you about subtleties, like move-order changes or any sidelines.</p>
  
  <p>I am not saying a chess engine is completely useless for studying openings. You could use it for practice games in a specific opening or you could study a certain alternative move in an opening (but that would be at a stage where you already know the opening somewhat).</p>
  
  <p>For studying a new opening I'd find much more useful than an engine:</p>
  
  <ul>
  <li>any explanation of plans/ideas (this can be books, videos, or a coach/friend)</li>
  <li>a database</li>
  <li>following games of a Grandmaster who is playing the opening regularly (let them do the difficult analyzing part...)</li>
  </ul>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2017-02-13T06:49:55.417Z
Answers.Text: Frankly, you don't know what you're talking about.  All chess masters, international masters and grandmasters use chess engines to study the openings.  My question concerned how they do that. I mean I know Anand is known to use link multiple computers together to garner analyses that go to great depths. My question concern what average.
Answers.UserDisplayName: ToddM
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Answers.Text: Alll grandmasters, international masters and masters use computers to study openings.  My question was how do they do this?
Answers.UserDisplayName: ToddM
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Answers.CreationDate: 2017-02-13T11:03:02.910Z
Answers.Text: @ToddM Your question was about *learning* a chess opening. I am sure Anand and other GM do know their openings. If you wanted to ask about how GM, IM.... use computers, why didn't you ask that?
Answers.UserDisplayName: user1583209
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Answers.Text: @ToddM I'm afraid you're the one who doesn't know what they're talking about. GMs/elite players already know their openings quite well. In their opening prep, they will normally come up with their own ideas/plans, and then test them against the computer. They don't just trust the computer 100%, following the lines it spits out blindly. They reflect, test, and try to understand the positions arising. They do this since they're in constant need of finding "new" stuff to get an edge from the get-go, since their opponents are difficult/impossible to beat from a balanced middlegame/endgame.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Scounged
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Answers.UserDisplayName: user1583209
Answers.Body: <p>I don't torture engines much when preparing openings as it makes almost no sense. I grew up from this.</p>
  
  <p>No human can get anywhere close to engines in <strong>dynamic</strong> positions. That means your moves will be quite random in sharp positions and your opponent's will be also quite random (or very unprecise if it sounds better to you). There is also quite a little point in analysing <strong>static</strong> position to extreme depths. What for, does it mean something to improve by 3 centipawns on depth 40?</p>
  
  <p>The engine evaluation may be based on some alien variation club players will never make playing unprepared. Evaluation of main line isn't important at all if it is almost certain that it won't happen. And that is exactly what engines expect, 100% precision. Engine will go to a minefield for one centipawn, not caring any mistake means immediate loss.</p>
  
  <p>I doubt it makes much sense for grandmasters and I'm pretty sure it makes no sense for hobby players to waste time and electricity for calculations they will never be able to replicate at the board. If the line is too messy, you will either not be able to find correct moves at the board (if engine didn't see it early enough) or you will simply forget it sooner than you will be able to catch there someone unprepared (if you try to remember it by heart). I think people heavily overestimate use of deep engine searches for practical games. They behave like if it was 30% of a success while it may very well be 0.2% of it.</p>
  
  <p>And here is beautiful example from last round of republic championchip where I had to win with white to make silver and my opponent (very dangerous 2500 player with sharp PC preparation) caught me unprepared in dragon sicilian and from engine perspective he just murdered me with black right from the opening.</p>
  
  <pre><code>1rr3k1/4pp1p/3p2p1/q2P1b2/2BQ2PP/1P3P2/2P5/2KR3R b - - 0 24
  
  1...Bxc2 2.Kxc2 Qa2+ 3.Kd3 Rxc4 4.bxc4 Rb3+ 5.Ke4
  </code></pre>
  
  <p>After the game he told me that he knew taking on c2 leads to very good endgame with queen and five pawns against two rooks and four pawns. I didn't know anything so I had to make my decision at the board. Do I want to give a queen and suffer in this type of endgame or do I like to go with my king to the center? I was thinking about half an hour and it looked to me that marching king to e4 could be very easily winning position (maybe I found the only forced draw,  I don't remember that exactly, but for sure I saw no single worse position for me in this variation). I made my march to e4 instead of giving up a queen, my opponent spent remaining 40 minutes calculating. I spent another twenty minutes of his time too, then I went to look on cups and medals as I was almost certain I'm winning (or at least not losing). Neither me nor my opponent found the -10 winnig strike for black that Komodo found on depth 5 in a few miliseconds. In the game I easily converted my extra rook as my opponent missed also the only forced draw (not completely obvious too) and the rest of variations were just easy wins for me.</p>
  
  <p>Even in a dream scenario things can go really wrong. It is horrible strategy to go into a minefield for a few centipawns which is exactly what engines do. They don't help you in recognising minefields, they don't care about them. There is some value in doing deep searches, one can hardly find reason why lower depths would produce better chess related results than higher depths, but that value is very close to zero. It is much easier to measure time related results and they are horrible on higher depths. Even if you are comfortable with wasting the electricity, don't waste your time.</p>
  
  <p>The stronger player you are, the more precision you want, obviously. But with today strength of computers, even GMs should be comfortable on under 1sec for unprobable variations to forget soon and on a few seconds for highly probabe positions to happen. There is always something to do if you want to see depth 50 result, it makes no sense but you can feel pretty comfortable with it, if you can for example prepare a breakfast in a meantime :-)</p>
  
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Answers.CreationDate: 2017-02-13T19:16:04.467Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2017-02-13T19:16:04.467Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: hoacin
Answers.Body: <p>The depth of a Chess Engine is the Level of Play when you analyse the game . If you are aware of the ELO System of rating I would like to describe below .</p>
  
  <ol>
  <li>100  - 1000  :--> Beginner</li>
  <li>1001 - 1200  :-->  Casual</li>
  <li>1201 - 1400  :-->  Average  </li>
  <li>1401 - 1600  :-->  Intermediate</li>
  <li>1601 - 1800  :-->  Experienced</li>
  <li>1801 - 2000  :--> Tournament Player</li>
  <li>2001 - 2200  :--> Expert</li>
  <li>2201 - 2300  :--> National Master</li>
  <li>2301 - 2400  :--> Fide Master</li>
  <li>2401 - 2500  :--> International Master (IM)</li>
  <li>2501 + -2800 :--> Grandmaster / World Champions (GM)</li>
  </ol>
  
  <p>Now when you set the Chess Engine depth to a Highest Level they play with the Strength of an IM/GM . The Depth what you should set is always on the category that you are in this ELO level . </p>
  
  <p>Let's assume that if you are a 1600 Approx Player you must try defeating the Players who are about 1700-2000 ELo level . As you know when you climb up a stair case you should take 1-2 steps at one time and you just cannot leap at one shot you must try crossing the next levels and check where your standard is and then prceed on to the next levels .</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2017-02-13T13:08:25.640Z
Answers.Text: How is this relevant to analyzing chess openings?
Answers.UserDisplayName: user1583209
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Answers.CreationDate: 2017-02-14T03:06:08.270Z
Answers.Text: I like your comment the best as it's the most relevant but do you have a reference for that.  Given computers can get your up to 30 moves in a few minutes, I'm surprised an 11 move depth is considered world class.
Answers.UserDisplayName: ToddM
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Answers.CreationDate: 2017-02-14T06:46:14.190Z
Answers.Text: Posted a new answer.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Seth Projnabrata
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Answers.CreationDate: 2017-03-04T13:09:46.720Z
Answers.Text: Sorry, but this looks like complete nonsense to me. 1. Different engines have different algorithms. 2. Your classification is arbitrary.
Answers.UserDisplayName: comodoro
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2017-03-06T07:12:24.040Z
Answers.Text: My answer is quiet abstract to understand . What I mean is that according to the level you are in you should try doing to the next level . You climb level after level . If I ask a beginner to understand the Game level of a GM he will find very difficult to deal with . He will understand some moves and will find himself tangent to the deep & strategic moves of the GM . I have seen beginners fail to understand Sicilian. A master of 2000+ only will be able to understand all the Games . So I believe the depth of a Chess Position should be set according to the classification of the Player himself.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Seth Projnabrata
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Answers.CreationDate: 2017-06-21T19:22:56.797Z
Answers.Text: I have to downvote this answer because you're comparing apples and oranges. Chess programs don't think the way humans do. A 1200 Elo chess program won't think like a 1200 Elo human, even if the ratings are from the same ratings pool (e.g. FICS). The computer may well suggest a bad move even if you're capable of understanding the correct one.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Kef Schecter
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Answers.CreationDate: 2017-06-22T07:12:59.930Z
Answers.Text: Well the comparison is not that far as you are saying Apples vs. Oranges but I tried narrowing it down . This is not a one to one mapping as we all know that a Chess rating is somewhat relative . A 1200 player can play the opening level of a GM and a GM can even falter to a 2000 ELO player . Anatoly Karpov once was a victim of it . Even Chess programs somewhat play this particular way . There are many examples as like this so whatever you stated is not somewhat new . So Mr @KefSchecter please reconsider your decision for down voting .
Answers.UserDisplayName: Seth Projnabrata
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Answers.CreationDate: 2017-02-13T12:49:32.063Z
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Answers.UserDisplayName: Seth Projnabrata
Answers.Body: <p>Sorry to disappoint you but from my Chess experience I can say that when you play real Chess Tournaments or even in the Internet you would find Players of the above category have different way to produce the Openings . </p>
  
  <p>When you play with a Player of 2300 + you would see that his openings are more ultra sharp and much more precise compared to a Player of 1500 Elo level . 
  The Player with a 2300 + would get an opening advantage very soon and the Score of the Game would be a plus to him . Infact they will even defeat his low rated opponent within 15-20 moves . </p>
  
  <p>A player with 1500-1600 Elo would play average openings with not so great quality but still he can give good competition . </p>
  
  <p>For a better reference please download Stockfish/SmallFish if you have an iPhone and then go to the Game Difficulty Section and choose any one . 
  PLAY with the APP for sometime and then you would realize the difference .</p>
  
  <p>One more thing : I have given you the answer from a Player's perspective . Please let me know what exactly you are trying to achieve so that I can frame my answer accordingly if the above is not satisfactory .</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2017-02-14T06:45:39.037Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2017-03-04T07:52:09.603Z
Answers.LastEditDate: 2017-03-04T07:52:09.603Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: Seth Projnabrata
Body: <p>I'm trying to learn a chess opening and using a chess engine (stockfish8) to analyze the position but I'm wondering what move depth should I set it to (e.g., 25, 30 35 half moves).   </p>
  
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2017-02-12T21:58:18.923Z
Comments.Text: As much as you can afford.
Comments.UserDisplayName: SmallChess
Tags: <opening><engines>
Title: To what move depth should you analyze a chess position
ThreadText: # To what move depth should you analyze a chess position
  
  (Asked by: username_0 on 2017-02-12)
  
  I'm trying to learn a chess opening and using a chess engine (stockfish8) to analyze the position but I'm wondering what move depth should I set it to (e.g., 25, 30 35 half moves).
  
  **Tags:** opening, engines
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_1**: As much as you can afford.  
  
  ---
  
  ## 4 answers
  
  ### Answer by username_2 on 2017-02-13. Score: 5
  
  Generally, the only reason running a chess engine at less than maximum power are time constraints or if you want to give yourself a chance to win, though in the latter case I'd still prefer to play human players instead.
  
  Regarding the use of a chess engine **to analyze the position** in an opening in order **to learn a chess opening** I am wondering how you are going to practically do this? I mean, the engine will give you only a certain sequence of moves which it considers best play for both sides. It will not teach you the ideas/plans behind an opening which is the most important part and something which you can rely on if your opponent for instance does not play the expected move. It will not teach you about subtleties, like move-order changes or any sidelines.
  
  I am not saying a chess engine is completely useless for studying openings. You could use it for practice games in a specific opening or you could study a certain alternative move in an opening (but that would be at a stage where you already know the opening somewhat).
  
  For studying a new opening I'd find much more useful than an engine:
  
  * any explanation of plans/ideas (this can be books, videos, or a coach/friend)
  * a database
  * following games of a Grandmaster who is playing the opening regularly (let them do the difficult analyzing part...)
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_0**: Frankly, you don't know what you're talking about.  All chess masters, international masters and grandmasters use chess engines to study the openings.  My question concerned how they do that. I mean I know Anand is known to use link multiple computers together to garner analyses that go to great depths. My question concern what average.  
  > **username_0**: Alll grandmasters, international masters and masters use computers to study openings.  My question was how do they do this?  
  > **username_2**: @username_0 Your question was about *learning* a chess opening. I am sure Anand and other GM do know their openings. If you wanted to ask about how GM, IM.... use computers, why didn't you ask that?  
  > **username_3**: @username_0 I'm afraid you're the one who doesn't know what they're talking about. GMs/elite players already know their openings quite well. In their opening prep, they will normally come up with their own ideas/plans, and then test them against the computer. They don't just trust the computer 100%, following the lines it spits out blindly. They reflect, test, and try to understand the positions arising. They do this since they're in constant need of finding "new" stuff to get an edge from the get-go, since their opponents are difficult/impossible to beat from a balanced middlegame/endgame.  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_4 on 2017-02-13. Score: 4
  
  I don't torture engines much when preparing openings as it makes almost no sense. I grew up from this.
  
  No human can get anywhere close to engines in **dynamic** positions. That means your moves will be quite random in sharp positions and your opponent's will be also quite random (or very unprecise if it sounds better to you). There is also quite a little point in analysing **static** position to extreme depths. What for, does it mean something to improve by 3 centipawns on depth 40?
  
  The engine evaluation may be based on some alien variation club players will never make playing unprepared. Evaluation of main line isn't important at all if it is almost certain that it won't happen. And that is exactly what engines expect, 100% precision. Engine will go to a minefield for one centipawn, not caring any mistake means immediate loss.
  
  I doubt it makes much sense for grandmasters and I'm pretty sure it makes no sense for hobby players to waste time and electricity for calculations they will never be able to replicate at the board. If the line is too messy, you will either not be able to find correct moves at the board (if engine didn't see it early enough) or you will simply forget it sooner than you will be able to catch there someone unprepared (if you try to remember it by heart). I think people heavily overestimate use of deep engine searches for practical games. They behave like if it was 30% of a success while it may very well be 0.2% of it.
  
  And here is beautiful example from last round of republic championchip where I had to win with white to make silver and my opponent (very dangerous 2500 player with sharp PC preparation) caught me unprepared in dragon sicilian and from engine perspective he just murdered me with black right from the opening.
  
  ```
  1rr3k1/4pp1p/3p2p1/q2P1b2/2BQ2PP/1P3P2/2P5/2KR3R b - - 0 24
  
  1...Bxc2 2.Kxc2 Qa2+ 3.Kd3 Rxc4 4.bxc4 Rb3+ 5.Ke4
  
  ```
  
  After the game he told me that he knew taking on c2 leads to very good endgame with queen and five pawns against two rooks and four pawns. I didn't know anything so I had to make my decision at the board. Do I want to give a queen and suffer in this type of endgame or do I like to go with my king to the center? I was thinking about half an hour and it looked to me that marching king to e4 could be very easily winning position (maybe I found the only forced draw, I don't remember that exactly, but for sure I saw no single worse position for me in this variation). I made my march to e4 instead of giving up a queen, my opponent spent remaining 40 minutes calculating. I spent another twenty minutes of his time too, then I went to look on cups and medals as I was almost certain I'm winning (or at least not losing). Neither me nor my opponent found the -10 winnig strike for black that Komodo found on depth 5 in a few miliseconds. In the game I easily converted my extra rook as my opponent missed also the only forced draw (not completely obvious too) and the rest of variations were just easy wins for me.
  
  Even in a dream scenario things can go really wrong. It is horrible strategy to go into a minefield for a few centipawns which is exactly what engines do. They don't help you in recognising minefields, they don't care about them. There is some value in doing deep searches, one can hardly find reason why lower depths would produce better chess related results than higher depths, but that value is very close to zero. It is much easier to measure time related results and they are horrible on higher depths. Even if you are comfortable with wasting the electricity, don't waste your time.
  
  The stronger player you are, the more precision you want, obviously. But with today strength of computers, even GMs should be comfortable on under 1sec for unprobable variations to forget soon and on a few seconds for highly probabe positions to happen. There is always something to do if you want to see depth 50 result, it makes no sense but you can feel pretty comfortable with it, if you can for example prepare a breakfast in a meantime :-)
  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_5 on 2017-02-13. Score: 2
  
  The depth of a Chess Engine is the Level of Play when you analyse the game . If you are aware of the ELO System of rating I would like to describe below .
  
  1. 100 - 1000 :--> Beginner
  2. 1001 - 1200 :--> Casual
  3. 1201 - 1400 :--> Average
  4. 1401 - 1600 :--> Intermediate
  5. 1601 - 1800 :--> Experienced
  6. 1801 - 2000 :--> Tournament Player
  7. 2001 - 2200 :--> Expert
  8. 2201 - 2300 :--> National Master
  9. 2301 - 2400 :--> Fide Master
  10. 2401 - 2500 :--> International Master (IM)
  11. 2501 + -2800 :--> Grandmaster / World Champions (GM)
  
  Now when you set the Chess Engine depth to a Highest Level they play with the Strength of an IM/GM . The Depth what you should set is always on the category that you are in this ELO level .
  
  Let's assume that if you are a 1600 Approx Player you must try defeating the Players who are about 1700-2000 ELo level . As you know when you climb up a stair case you should take 1-2 steps at one time and you just cannot leap at one shot you must try crossing the next levels and check where your standard is and then prceed on to the next levels .
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_2**: How is this relevant to analyzing chess openings?  
  > **username_0**: I like your comment the best as it's the most relevant but do you have a reference for that.  Given computers can get your up to 30 moves in a few minutes, I'm surprised an 11 move depth is considered world class.  
  > **username_5**: Posted a new answer.  
  > **username_6**: Sorry, but this looks like complete nonsense to me. 1. Different engines have different algorithms. 2. Your classification is arbitrary.  
  > **username_5**: My answer is quiet abstract to understand . What I mean is that according to the level you are in you should try doing to the next level . You climb level after level . If I ask a beginner to understand the Game level of a GM he will find very difficult to deal with . He will understand some moves and will find himself tangent to the deep & strategic moves of the GM . I have seen beginners fail to understand Sicilian. A master of 2000+ only will be able to understand all the Games . So I believe the depth of a Chess Position should be set according to the classification of the Player himself.  
  > **username_7**: I have to downvote this answer because you're comparing apples and oranges. Chess programs don't think the way humans do. A 1200 Elo chess program won't think like a 1200 Elo human, even if the ratings are from the same ratings pool (e.g. FICS). The computer may well suggest a bad move even if you're capable of understanding the correct one.  
  > **username_5**: Well the comparison is not that far as you are saying Apples vs. Oranges but I tried narrowing it down . This is not a one to one mapping as we all know that a Chess rating is somewhat relative . A 1200 player can play the opening level of a GM and a GM can even falter to a 2000 ELO player . Anatoly Karpov once was a victim of it . Even Chess programs somewhat play this particular way . There are many examples as like this so whatever you stated is not somewhat new . So Mr @username_7 please reconsider your decision for down voting .  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_5 on 2017-02-14. Score: 0
  
  Sorry to disappoint you but from my Chess experience I can say that when you play real Chess Tournaments or even in the Internet you would find Players of the above category have different way to produce the Openings .
  
  When you play with a Player of 2300 + you would see that his openings are more ultra sharp and much more precise compared to a Player of 1500 Elo level .
  The Player with a 2300 + would get an opening advantage very soon and the Score of the Game would be a plus to him . Infact they will even defeat his low rated opponent within 15-20 moves .
  
  A player with 1500-1600 Elo would play average openings with not so great quality but still he can give good competition .
  
  For a better reference please download Stockfish/SmallFish if you have an iPhone and then go to the Game Difficulty Section and choose any one .
  PLAY with the APP for sometime and then you would realize the difference .
  
  One more thing : I have given you the answer from a Player's perspective . Please let me know what exactly you are trying to achieve so that I can frame my answer accordingly if the above is not satisfactory .
  
  
  ---
  
  