Answers.Body: <p>With white to move the following position is a draw with the maximum possible material difference. The position is not currently stalemate but will be with correct play from white. If white plays Kh1 any move from black will result in stalemate. </p>
  
  <pre><code>8/7b/8/3n4/q3k3/8/qqqq1rKn/qqq1qrb1 w KQkq - 0 1
  </code></pre>
  
  <p>(Another possibility would be a position utilizing a forced draw due to the 50 move rule)</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-01-17T06:08:13.477Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2019-01-17T09:43:31.457Z
Answers.LastEditDate: 2019-01-17T09:43:31.457Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: angelatheist
Answers.Body: <pre><code>[fen ""]
  
  1. a4 b5 2. b4 bxa4 3. c4 c5 4. d4 cxb4 5. e4 d5 6. f4 dxc4 7. g4 e5
  8. h4 exd4 9. Ba3 g5 10. Nc3 gxh4 11. Qb3 f5 12. Kf2 h3 13. Kg3 h2
  14. Bd3 Qa5 15. Kh4 dxc3 16. Kg5 h5 17. Kg6 cxb3 18. g5 Rh7 19. Ra2 Rc7
  20. Bc4 Rxc4 21. Kh7 Bd6 22. g6 fxe4 23. Kg7 hxg1=Q 24. Kh7 h4 25. Kg7 h3
  26. Kh7 h2
  27. Kg7 bxa3 28. Kh7 bxa2 29. Kg7 Qgb6 30. Rg1 hxg1=Q 31. Kh7 Nc6
  32. Kg7 Nd8 33. Kh7 Nf6+ 34. Kg7 Nd7 35. Kh7 a1=Q 36. Kg7 c2+ 37. Kh7 Qab1 
  38. Kg7 Qb8 39. Kh7 Q1b7 40. Kg7 c1=Q 41. Kh7 a2 42. Kg7 a1=Q+
  43. Kh7 Qab1 44. Kg7 Qb1b6 45. Kh7 a3 46. Kg7 a2 47. Kh7 a1=Q 48. Kg8 Qab1 
  49. Kg7 Q1b5 50. Kh7 Nf6+ 51. Kh8 Bd7 52. Kg7 Nc6 53. Kh8 Be7 54. Kg7 Bd8
  55. Kh8 e3 56. g7 Ne4 57. Kh7 Qab4 58. Kh8 a5 59. Kh7 a4 60. Kh8 a3
  61. Kh7 a2 62. Kh8 Qxf4 63. Kh7 a1=Q 64. Kg8 e2 65. Kh8 Nc5 66. Kh7 Re4
  67. Kh8 Re6 68. Kh7 Qf4b8 69. Kh8 Ra6 70. Kh7 Qb6a7 71. Kh8 Nd4
  72. Kh7 Rad6 73. Kh8 e1=Q 74. Kh7 Qg1e3
  </code></pre>
  
  <p>White can force a draw from this position with 75. g8=Q+ and perpetually check the black king.  The end position given above (before the pawn promotes) is the moment of maximum material difference in this forced draw.  </p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-01-16T03:35:04.917Z
Answers.Text: This should be the maximal material difference. Unless there is a dead draw which is not a stalemate where black has all the pieces as above and white has only the king. I don't believe it is possible though.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Zuriel
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-01-16T07:13:26.460Z
Answers.Text: I don't see why would it be a draw. There is a risk of stalemate, but black could win. Maybe you could add a bit of explanation.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Máté Juhász
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-01-16T12:10:21.163Z
Answers.Text: It's a draw because White can promote and give a perpetual, but the position before the promotion is given because that's when the material difference is biggest!
Answers.UserDisplayName: JiK
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-01-16T00:16:44.687Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2019-01-17T07:47:11.587Z
Answers.LastEditDate: 2019-01-17T07:47:11.587Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: leftaroundabout
Answers.Body: <p>With white to move, the following position is a draw:</p>
  
  <p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/0mnkC.png" rel="noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/0mnkC.png" alt="enter image description here"></a></p>
  
  <p>I <em>think</em> it's reachable from the original position, although it would be difficult. I'll let you know if I can.</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-01-15T20:51:13.517Z
Answers.Text: Heh, that idea works too, but I'm not sure if the OP wants to include perpetual check or not.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Glorfindel
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-01-15T20:52:41.680Z
Answers.Text: Yeah, I'm not sure, either, but since he didn't specify, I felt obligated.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Brandon_J
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-01-15T20:56:47.833Z
Answers.Text: I am the OP and I am not sure as well. Since I am not sure, theoretically no one knows for sure whether the OP wants to include perpetual check or not.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Zuriel
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-01-15T21:00:32.617Z
Answers.Text: hahaha this could get awkward
Answers.UserDisplayName: Brandon_J
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-01-15T21:34:18.913Z
Answers.Text: You could improve this by replacing the rook with a minor piece. A possible perpetual could be for instance: black Bf8, Ng7, Kh8; white: Nf7+, Kg6 and the knight is shuffling between h6 and f7. I am sure you can place 9 queens and the rest of the material somewhere on the board so that it does not interfere with the perpetual.
Answers.UserDisplayName: user1583209
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-01-17T11:04:18.707Z
Answers.Text: It's _probably_ reachable from leftaroundabout's position (Black rearranges his pieces  trying not to check the white king, and White promotes his remaining pawn to a rook).
Answers.UserDisplayName: trolley813
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-01-15T20:46:21.427Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2019-01-15T20:46:21.427Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: Brandon_J
Answers.Body: <p>How about this? </p>
  
  <pre><code>1q3r1k/2b1Nn1r/5K2/qqn5/qqb5/qq6/q7/8 w - - 0 1
  </code></pre>
  
  <p>The knight gives a perpetual. I think this position is possible, but I have not verified it.</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-01-16T03:20:41.760Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2019-01-16T03:20:41.760Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: Akavall
Answers.Body: <p>This position, with a material difference of 1 queen, 2 rooks, a bishop and a knight, is (quite easily) reachable from the starting position:</p>
  
  <pre><code>7k/8/8/1n6/1p1p1p1p/pPpPpPpP/P1P1P1P1/RQNKNB1R w - - 0 1
  </code></pre>
  
  <p>You could add a white bishop on g1 and a black knight on f5, but the material difference remains the same.</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-01-15T20:57:45.740Z
Answers.Text: Assuming white only moves its rook back and forth, black could play Nd6, Nc4, and Nb2. From there the (strange) line Qxb2 Kg8 Qb1 is also a draw with one less knight.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Brandon_J
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-01-15T21:35:58.083Z
Answers.Text: @Brandon_J: Without the black knight, white would play Qb2 and then Qxa3 (or Qxc3) and then it s not a draw anymore.
Answers.UserDisplayName: user1583209
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-01-15T22:14:42.297Z
Answers.Text: Ahhh...would never have seen Qb2 for white
Answers.UserDisplayName: Brandon_J
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2020-04-03T02:02:20.603Z
Answers.Text: 1. Qb2 followed by 2. Qxc3 avoids the draw. Hmm. So does 1. Resigns. Oh, never mind.
Answers.UserDisplayName: bof
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2020-04-03T05:36:09.113Z
Answers.Text: @bof Black recaptures with the knight and the blockade is in place again.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Glorfindel
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2020-04-03T06:29:50.777Z
Answers.Text: I was just being silly. Black recaptures on c3 with the knight and White has avoided the draw by getting mated.
Answers.UserDisplayName: bof
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2020-04-03T06:36:38.183Z
Answers.Text: Haha, I didn't even see it was mate :) (Mainly because I can't *see* the diagram in the iOS app.)
Answers.UserDisplayName: Glorfindel
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2019-01-15T20:36:16.713Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2019-01-15T20:36:16.713Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: Glorfindel
Body: <p>I have noticed the following example, which should be a dead draw:</p>
  
  <p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/PPb6X.png" rel="noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/PPb6X.png" alt="enter image description here"></a></p>
  
  <p>I am wondering what is the theoretical material difference of a dead draw which is not a stalemate? (I am not asking about agreed draws.) Apparently we could not add more rooks to the diagram as all white pawns have not been promoted.</p>
  
  <p>By the way, the game above is not drawn by <a href="http://www.e4ec.org/immr.html" rel="noreferrer">the insufficient material rule</a>, as white can theoretically win the game if black makes a blunder such as capturing the rook.</p>
  
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2019-01-15T20:31:17.950Z
Comments.Text: I believe if you add a white queen on a1 or b1 or b2 and a black knight on b5 it would still be draw (if you capture on a3 or c3 I am going to recapture with the knight).
Comments.UserDisplayName: user1583209
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2019-01-16T14:34:15.743Z
Comments.Text: dead draw =  Impossibility of checkmate? Why would it be a dead draw? a checkmate is possible black just does not blunder, this would be draw on agreement or threefold repetition or fitfy-move-rule. Or do you mean fifty-move-rule by dead draw?
Comments.UserDisplayName: Kami Kaze
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2019-01-16T15:42:56.113Z
Comments.Text: @KamiKaze, I agree that the phrase "dead draw" is not ideal here. What I mean is that the game is clearly a draw, except if one side purposefully make a suicidal move such as capturing the rook in the diagram above.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Zuriel
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2019-01-16T16:00:16.287Z
Comments.Text: I think the term should be "forced draw" rather than "dead draw".  In a dead draw, no legal sequence of moves could result in a victory by either side, but with White to play in the above example [or Black to play, making an arbitrary king move], 1. Re1? bxf2+ 2. Ka1 fxe1=Q++ would be a victory for black.
Comments.UserDisplayName: supercat
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2019-01-16T23:26:44.293Z
Comments.Text: @user1583209: That's a win for White by QxP
Comments.UserDisplayName: Joshua
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2019-01-16T23:30:19.937Z
Comments.Text: @Joshua QxP NxP and then what?
Comments.UserDisplayName: user1583209
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2019-01-16T23:41:33.743Z
Comments.Text: @user1583209: After PxQ a pawn is unblocked, leading to unblocking the knight, and it cascades from there. Note that OP has stated that black playing PxR is a blunder leading to a white win.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Joshua
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2019-01-16T23:49:08.603Z
Comments.Text: @Joshua Did you realize that my suggestion was to put a white queen AND a black knight on b5 (which can recapture on a3 or C3)? No pawn gets unblocked in this case.
Comments.UserDisplayName: user1583209
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2019-01-17T01:59:24.067Z
Comments.Text: Why isn't white's white tile bishop on b1 or b3? Am I missing something?
Comments.UserDisplayName: Cedric Martens
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2019-01-17T09:43:34.153Z
Comments.Text: @CedricMartens: it couldn't have got there. Usually with construction problems it is required that the position would actually be reachable by a series of legal moves from the starting position.
Comments.UserDisplayName: RemcoGerlich
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2019-01-17T10:59:39.567Z
Comments.Text: @CedricMartens White's white-squared bishop was captured on f1 (since e2 and g2-pawns, at least one of which had to move to free the bishop, are still in place), and White could not promote a new one because all 8 white pawns are on the board.
  P.S. The same holds for Chess960, except that white bishop could be captured on b1, d1, or h1 (but still on its initial position).
Comments.UserDisplayName: trolley813
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2022-05-15T19:40:21.907Z
Comments.Text: @supercat, There is no Ka1. Do you mean Kh1?
Comments.UserDisplayName: Zuriel
Tags: <theory><problems><draw>
Title: What is the theoretical maximal material difference of a dead draw which is not a stalemate?
ThreadText: # What is the theoretical maximal material difference of a dead draw which is not a stalemate?
  
  (Asked by: username_0 on 2019-01-15)
  
  I have noticed the following example, which should be a dead draw:
  
  [![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/PPb6X.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/PPb6X.png)
  
  I am wondering what is the theoretical material difference of a dead draw which is not a stalemate? (I am not asking about agreed draws.) Apparently we could not add more rooks to the diagram as all white pawns have not been promoted.
  
  By the way, the game above is not drawn by [the insufficient material rule](http://www.e4ec.org/immr.html), as white can theoretically win the game if black makes a blunder such as capturing the rook.
  
  **Tags:** theory, problems, draw
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_1**: I believe if you add a white queen on a1 or b1 or b2 and a black knight on b5 it would still be draw (if you capture on a3 or c3 I am going to recapture with the knight).  
  > **username_2**: dead draw =  Impossibility of checkmate? Why would it be a dead draw? a checkmate is possible black just does not blunder, this would be draw on agreement or threefold repetition or fitfy-move-rule. Or do you mean fifty-move-rule by dead draw?  
  > **username_0**: @username_2, I agree that the phrase "dead draw" is not ideal here. What I mean is that the game is clearly a draw, except if one side purposefully make a suicidal move such as capturing the rook in the diagram above.  
  > **username_3**: I think the term should be "forced draw" rather than "dead draw".  In a dead draw, no legal sequence of moves could result in a victory by either side, but with White to play in the above example [or Black to play, making an arbitrary king move], 1. Re1? bxf2+ 2. Ka1 fxe1=Q++ would be a victory for black.  
  > **username_4**: @username_1: That's a win for White by QxP  
  > **username_1**: @username_4 QxP NxP and then what?  
  > **username_4**: @username_1: After PxQ a pawn is unblocked, leading to unblocking the knight, and it cascades from there. Note that OP has stated that black playing PxR is a blunder leading to a white win.  
  > **username_1**: @username_4 Did you realize that my suggestion was to put a white queen AND a black knight on b5 (which can recapture on a3 or C3)? No pawn gets unblocked in this case.  
  > **username_5**: Why isn't white's white tile bishop on b1 or b3? Am I missing something?  
  > **username_6**: @username_5: it couldn't have got there. Usually with construction problems it is required that the position would actually be reachable by a series of legal moves from the starting position.  
  > **username_7**: @username_5 White's white-squared bishop was captured on f1 (since e2 and g2-pawns, at least one of which had to move to free the bishop, are still in place), and White could not promote a new one because all 8 white pawns are on the board. P.S. The same holds for Chess960, except that white bishop could be captured on b1, d1, or h1 (but still on its initial position).  
  > **username_0**: @username_3, There is no Ka1. Do you mean Kh1?  
  
  ---
  
  ## 5 answers
  
  ### Answer by username_8 on 2019-01-17. Score: 6 | Accepted answer
  
  With white to move the following position is a draw with the maximum possible material difference. The position is not currently stalemate but will be with correct play from white. If white plays Kh1 any move from black will result in stalemate.
  
  ```
  8/7b/8/3n4/q3k3/8/qqqq1rKn/qqq1qrb1 w KQkq - 0 1
  
  ```
  
  (Another possibility would be a position utilizing a forced draw due to the 50 move rule)
  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_9 on 2019-01-16. Score: 22
  
  ```
  [fen ""]
  
  1. a4 b5 2. b4 bxa4 3. c4 c5 4. d4 cxb4 5. e4 d5 6. f4 dxc4 7. g4 e5
  8. h4 exd4 9. Ba3 g5 10. Nc3 gxh4 11. Qb3 f5 12. Kf2 h3 13. Kg3 h2
  14. Bd3 Qa5 15. Kh4 dxc3 16. Kg5 h5 17. Kg6 cxb3 18. g5 Rh7 19. Ra2 Rc7
  20. Bc4 Rxc4 21. Kh7 Bd6 22. g6 fxe4 23. Kg7 hxg1=Q 24. Kh7 h4 25. Kg7 h3
  26. Kh7 h2
  27. Kg7 bxa3 28. Kh7 bxa2 29. Kg7 Qgb6 30. Rg1 hxg1=Q 31. Kh7 Nc6
  32. Kg7 Nd8 33. Kh7 Nf6+ 34. Kg7 Nd7 35. Kh7 a1=Q 36. Kg7 c2+ 37. Kh7 Qab1 
  38. Kg7 Qb8 39. Kh7 Q1b7 40. Kg7 c1=Q 41. Kh7 a2 42. Kg7 a1=Q+
  43. Kh7 Qab1 44. Kg7 Qb1b6 45. Kh7 a3 46. Kg7 a2 47. Kh7 a1=Q 48. Kg8 Qab1 
  49. Kg7 Q1b5 50. Kh7 Nf6+ 51. Kh8 Bd7 52. Kg7 Nc6 53. Kh8 Be7 54. Kg7 Bd8
  55. Kh8 e3 56. g7 Ne4 57. Kh7 Qab4 58. Kh8 a5 59. Kh7 a4 60. Kh8 a3
  61. Kh7 a2 62. Kh8 Qxf4 63. Kh7 a1=Q 64. Kg8 e2 65. Kh8 Nc5 66. Kh7 Re4
  67. Kh8 Re6 68. Kh7 Qf4b8 69. Kh8 Ra6 70. Kh7 Qb6a7 71. Kh8 Nd4
  72. Kh7 Rad6 73. Kh8 e1=Q 74. Kh7 Qg1e3
  
  ```
  
  White can force a draw from this position with 75. g8=Q+ and perpetually check the black king. The end position given above (before the pawn promotes) is the moment of maximum material difference in this forced draw.
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_0**: This should be the maximal material difference. Unless there is a dead draw which is not a stalemate where black has all the pieces as above and white has only the king. I don't believe it is possible though.  
  > **username_10**: I don't see why would it be a draw. There is a risk of stalemate, but black could win. Maybe you could add a bit of explanation.  
  > **username_11**: It's a draw because White can promote and give a perpetual, but the position before the promotion is given because that's when the material difference is biggest!  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_12 on 2019-01-15. Score: 12
  
  With white to move, the following position is a draw:
  
  [![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/0mnkC.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/0mnkC.png)
  
  I *think* it's reachable from the original position, although it would be difficult. I'll let you know if I can.
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_13**: Heh, that idea works too, but I'm not sure if the OP wants to include perpetual check or not.  
  > **username_12**: Yeah, I'm not sure, either, but since he didn't specify, I felt obligated.  
  > **username_0**: I am the OP and I am not sure as well. Since I am not sure, theoretically no one knows for sure whether the OP wants to include perpetual check or not.  
  > **username_12**: hahaha this could get awkward  
  > **username_1**: You could improve this by replacing the rook with a minor piece. A possible perpetual could be for instance: black Bf8, Ng7, Kh8; white: Nf7+, Kg6 and the knight is shuffling between h6 and f7. I am sure you can place 9 queens and the rest of the material somewhere on the board so that it does not interfere with the perpetual.  
  > **username_7**: It's _probably_ reachable from username_9's position (Black rearranges his pieces  trying not to check the white king, and White promotes his remaining pawn to a rook).  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_14 on 2019-01-16. Score: 8
  
  How about this?
  
  ```
  1q3r1k/2b1Nn1r/5K2/qqn5/qqb5/qq6/q7/8 w - - 0 1
  
  ```
  
  The knight gives a perpetual. I think this position is possible, but I have not verified it.
  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_13 on 2019-01-15. Score: 5
  
  This position, with a material difference of 1 queen, 2 rooks, a bishop and a knight, is (quite easily) reachable from the starting position:
  
  ```
  7k/8/8/1n6/1p1p1p1p/pPpPpPpP/P1P1P1P1/RQNKNB1R w - - 0 1
  
  ```
  
  You could add a white bishop on g1 and a black knight on f5, but the material difference remains the same.
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_12**: Assuming white only moves its rook back and forth, black could play Nd6, Nc4, and Nb2. From there the (strange) line Qxb2 Kg8 Qb1 is also a draw with one less knight.  
  > **username_1**: @username_12: Without the black knight, white would play Qb2 and then Qxa3 (or Qxc3) and then it s not a draw anymore.  
  > **username_12**: Ahhh...would never have seen Qb2 for white  
  > **username_15**: 1. Qb2 followed by 2. Qxc3 avoids the draw. Hmm. So does 1. Resigns. Oh, never mind.  
  > **username_13**: @username_15 Black recaptures with the knight and the blockade is in place again.  
  > **username_15**: I was just being silly. Black recaptures on c3 with the knight and White has avoided the draw by getting mated.  
  > **username_13**: Haha, I didn't even see it was mate :) (Mainly because I can't *see* the diagram in the iOS app.)  
  
  ---
  
  