Answers.Body: <p>There are probably several ways of obtaining an advantage but the most convincing one I can come up with is this:</p>
  <pre><code>[fen &quot;r1bqkb1r/ppp2ppp/1nn5/4p3/2B5/3P1N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq - 2 7&quot;]
  
  7.Bb5 Bd6 8.Bxc6+ bxc6 9.Nxe5 Bxe5 10.Re1 Qe7 (10...f6 11.d4 O-O 12.dxe5 Qxd1 13.Rxd1 fxe5) 11.Kh1 O-O 12.f4 f6 13.fxe5 fxe5 14.Be3
  </code></pre>
  <p>In the position after 10.Re1, Stockfish 14 NNUE gives +0.8 at depth 41. That's a great opening advantage and the final position seems fairly miserable for black because of the bad pawn structure.</p>
  <p>Some comments have focused on the earlier 8.Re1 variation. Maybe that's because there are a couple of games in the database that have continued like that. I'm sure that variation gives an advantage for white as well, but I don't think one should give much value on non-prepared GM moves.</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2021-10-21T14:02:14.350Z
Answers.Text: Weirdly enough strong engines view the ending as equal (or rather holdable, Black is without prospects) after activating Black's bishop via c5, Bb7, but every path I've clicked through ends in a rook endgame a pawn down, and Black is left reacting to White's plans to prevent worse outcomes.
Answers.UserDisplayName: B.Swan
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2021-10-20T10:14:36.327Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2021-10-20T10:14:36.327Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: nyymi
Answers.Body: <p>It is actually played even at top level. Some good examples are &quot;Esipenko - Vidit 2022&quot; or &quot;Van Foreest - Erigaisi 2022&quot;. From a strategically point of view, the line makes complete sense as 4.d3 is already a somewhat passive move from white and it asks for a direct reaction.</p>
  <p>Let me give the actual theory line nowadays, and at the end I will show a game I played when I was 14, it was actually my first slow chess tournament.</p>
  <pre><code>  [Title &quot;Main line&quot;]
    [FEN &quot;&quot;]
   1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. O-O Bg4 7. h3 Bh5 8. Re1 Be7 9. g4 Bg6 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11. Rxe5 Nb6 12. Bb3 O-O
  </code></pre>
  <p>It gives a complex position with huge compensation for the pawn. Other moves for black are lest testing. A good example for black play can be checked in &quot;Adhiban-Nguyen 2017&quot;, which obviously centers on attacking the weaknesses of white king.</p>
  <p>If any detail unclear feel free to ask. Now, in honour to my first steps on chess I will attach when I played this d5 idea against Raul Heras which is a sample of bad chess but gives some ideas of how not to play.</p>
  <pre><code>  [Title &quot;My game&quot;]
    [FEN &quot;&quot;]
    1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. c3 Bc5 7. O-O O-O 8. Re1 Qd6 9. b4 Ndxb4 10. cxb4 Bd4 11. Nxd4 Qxd4 12. Qb3 Qxa1 13. Bb2 Nd4 14. Bxa1 Nxb3 15. Bxb3 Bf5 16. Re3 Rfe8 17. Nd2 Rad8 18. Bc4 c6 19. a4 Kf8 20. Ne4 Be6 21. Bxe6 Rxe6 22. Nc5 Re7 23. Bxe5 b6 24. Na6 f6 25. Bg3 Rxd3 26. h3 Rexe3 27. fxe3 Rxe3 28. Bf2 Ra3
  </code></pre>
  <p>And no one knows how I achieved such a comeback. Anyhow, I hope I helped. Best regards!</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2024-06-24T01:31:57.453Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2024-06-24T01:31:57.453Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: baristocrona
Body: <p>The line may seem suspicious at first, but after a few precise moves (some may say artificial moves) by Black an interesting middlegame position is reached.</p>
  <p>I did some analysis on my own and probably the strongest line for White is the early Bb5 line, but even there an interesting, unbalanced game arises.</p>
  <p>From my analysis, Black eventually reaches equality (at least practically). I use &quot;!&quot; to mark moves that make the variation work.</p>
  <pre><code>[FEN &quot;&quot;]
  1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 d5!? 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. O-O Nb6! {Not an excellent move, but a key move for the variation. Now the Queen does not have to defend the knight and is allowed to go to e7} 7. Bb3 {This natural move is the most played} (7. Bb5 {Is the critical continuation. White is pressuring e5} Bd6 8. Bxc6+ {Eliminating the defender first is the most precise way to win the pawn on e5} (8. Nxe5 Bxe5 9. Re1 {This plan does not win a pawn} O-O 10. Bxc6 Bxh2+ 11. Kxh2 Qd6+ 12. Kg1 Qxc6)(8. Re1 f6 9. d4 O-O 10. dxe5 Nxe5 11. Nxe5 fxe5 12. Nc3 Bf5 13. Ne4 Bb4 14. c3 Qxd1 15. Rxd1 Be7 16. Re1 Rad8) 8... bxc6 9. Nxe5 Bxe5 10. Re1 {This line requires some artificial solution from Black} Qe7 11. f4 Bd4+ 12. Kh1 Be6 13. f5 O-O 14. fxe6 Nd5) 7... Bg4! {Indirectly defending e5, disallowing Ng5 and paving the road for long castle by Black} 8. h3 Bh5 9. Re1 Qe7! {This move looks rather artificial but it protects e5 and allows the king to leave the center, which is under pressure} 10. a4 (10. Qe2 f6) {Forcing ...a5 is beneficial to White, as it weakens Black's king shelter} (10. c3 {The game takes similar shape without a4 a5 interposed} O-O-O 11. d4 f6 12. Nbd2 g5 13. Nf1 Kb8 14. Ng3 Bg6) 10... a5 11. Nc3 (11. Be3 O-O-O 12. Bxb6 cxb6 13. Nc3 Kb8 14. Nb5 f5) O-O-O 12. Nb5 Kb8 13. Qe2 f6 14. c3 g5 15. d4 {Practically a totally equal position}
  </code></pre>
  <p>Is there something I am missing? Is Black hopeless at the end of some of the lines?</p>
  
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2021-10-19T20:59:28.523Z
Comments.Text: I think it's the 7.Bb5, 8.Re1 line that makes the difference. White has won every single game I found from that position. In the line you show, Black will probably end up in an inferior endgame due to the isolated pawn
Comments.UserDisplayName: David
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2021-10-19T22:06:07.307Z
Comments.Text: @David How many games have you found? In my DB there are only 5, 4 wins by White and 1 by Black. But some games count as White wins, when the final position is equal (https://lichess.org/D4sCaZ9Z). Apart from that, in all games that followed my variation, the move 11...Bxe5 was played. It seems to be crucial to take with the f-pawn. It generates pressure on f2, gives the Queen some mobility and allows for tricks like 12. Bd3 e4!? 13. Bxe4 Bxh2 14. Kxh2 Qh4+ 15. Kg1 Qxf2+
Comments.UserDisplayName: B.Swan
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2021-10-19T22:12:09.523Z
Comments.Text: Also the sample size of high level games in the line is so low, I do not know if one can infer anything about the quality of the line. Especially if 2 of the 5 games feature the same matchup of players, drawing a conclusion is problematic.
  
  In the Lichess player DB there are 128 games after 8...f6 9. d4 0-0 and the score slightly favors Black, which also would indicate practical equality.
  
  But your assessment about the isolated pawn is probably the right call.
Comments.UserDisplayName: B.Swan
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2021-10-20T06:20:46.530Z
Comments.Text: In that 7.Bb5, Re1 line (I agree with David, it looks critical) I wonder why White should hurry with 10.de5 rather than 10.Bc6 bc6 11.de5 fe5 (11...Be5 12.Qd8 Rd8 13.Ne5 fe5 14.Nc3 is a cheerless endgame for Black) 12.Ng5 intending Nc3, b3, Nge4, Be3 or Bb2. If Black cannot capitalize at once on his slight development advantage, he will suffer with his numerous pawn weaknesses.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Evargalo
Tags: <opening><analysis><italian-game>
Title: Why is the immediate ...d5 in the 4. d3 Italian not played?
ThreadText: # Why is the immediate ...d5 in the 4. d3 Italian not played?
  
  (Asked by: username_0 on 2021-10-19)
  
  The line may seem suspicious at first, but after a few precise moves (some may say artificial moves) by Black an interesting middlegame position is reached.
  
  I did some analysis on my own and probably the strongest line for White is the early Bb5 line, but even there an interesting, unbalanced game arises.
  
  From my analysis, Black eventually reaches equality (at least practically). I use "!" to mark moves that make the variation work.
  
  ```
  [FEN ""]
  1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 d5!? 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. O-O Nb6! {Not an excellent move, but a key move for the variation. Now the Queen does not have to defend the knight and is allowed to go to e7} 7. Bb3 {This natural move is the most played} (7. Bb5 {Is the critical continuation. White is pressuring e5} Bd6 8. Bxc6+ {Eliminating the defender first is the most precise way to win the pawn on e5} (8. Nxe5 Bxe5 9. Re1 {This plan does not win a pawn} O-O 10. Bxc6 Bxh2+ 11. Kxh2 Qd6+ 12. Kg1 Qxc6)(8. Re1 f6 9. d4 O-O 10. dxe5 Nxe5 11. Nxe5 fxe5 12. Nc3 Bf5 13. Ne4 Bb4 14. c3 Qxd1 15. Rxd1 Be7 16. Re1 Rad8) 8... bxc6 9. Nxe5 Bxe5 10. Re1 {This line requires some artificial solution from Black} Qe7 11. f4 Bd4+ 12. Kh1 Be6 13. f5 O-O 14. fxe6 Nd5) 7... Bg4! {Indirectly defending e5, disallowing Ng5 and paving the road for long castle by Black} 8. h3 Bh5 9. Re1 Qe7! {This move looks rather artificial but it protects e5 and allows the king to leave the center, which is under pressure} 10. a4 (10. Qe2 f6) {Forcing ...a5 is beneficial to White, as it weakens Black's king shelter} (10. c3 {The game takes similar shape without a4 a5 interposed} O-O-O 11. d4 f6 12. Nbd2 g5 13. Nf1 Kb8 14. Ng3 Bg6) 10... a5 11. Nc3 (11. Be3 O-O-O 12. Bxb6 cxb6 13. Nc3 Kb8 14. Nb5 f5) O-O-O 12. Nb5 Kb8 13. Qe2 f6 14. c3 g5 15. d4 {Practically a totally equal position}
  
  ```
  
  Is there something I am missing? Is Black hopeless at the end of some of the lines?
  
  **Tags:** opening, analysis, italian-game
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_1**: I think it's the 7.Bb5, 8.Re1 line that makes the difference. White has won every single game I found from that position. In the line you show, Black will probably end up in an inferior endgame due to the isolated pawn  
  > **username_0**: @username_1 How many games have you found? In my DB there are only 5, 4 wins by White and 1 by Black. But some games count as White wins, when the final position is equal (https://lichess.org/D4sCaZ9Z). Apart from that, in all games that followed my variation, the move 11...Bxe5 was played. It seems to be crucial to take with the f-pawn. It generates pressure on f2, gives the Queen some mobility and allows for tricks like 12. Bd3 e4!? 13. Bxe4 Bxh2 14. Kxh2 Qh4+ 15. Kg1 Qxf2+  
  > **username_0**: Also the sample size of high level games in the line is so low, I do not know if one can infer anything about the quality of the line. Especially if 2 of the 5 games feature the same matchup of players, drawing a conclusion is problematic.  In the Lichess player DB there are 128 games after 8...f6 9. d4 0-0 and the score slightly favors Black, which also would indicate practical equality.  But your assessment about the isolated pawn is probably the right call.  
  > **username_2**: In that 7.Bb5, Re1 line (I agree with username_1, it looks critical) I wonder why White should hurry with 10.de5 rather than 10.Bc6 bc6 11.de5 fe5 (11...Be5 12.Qd8 Rd8 13.Ne5 fe5 14.Nc3 is a cheerless endgame for Black) 12.Ng5 intending Nc3, b3, Nge4, Be3 or Bb2. If Black cannot capitalize at once on his slight development advantage, he will suffer with his numerous pawn weaknesses.  
  
  ---
  
  ## 2 answers
  
  ### Answer by username_3 on 2021-10-20. Score: 2 | Accepted answer
  
  There are probably several ways of obtaining an advantage but the most convincing one I can come up with is this:
  
  ```
  [fen "r1bqkb1r/ppp2ppp/1nn5/4p3/2B5/3P1N2/PPP2PPP/RNBQ1RK1 w kq - 2 7"]
  
  7.Bb5 Bd6 8.Bxc6+ bxc6 9.Nxe5 Bxe5 10.Re1 Qe7 (10...f6 11.d4 O-O 12.dxe5 Qxd1 13.Rxd1 fxe5) 11.Kh1 O-O 12.f4 f6 13.fxe5 fxe5 14.Be3
  
  ```
  
  In the position after 10.Re1, Stockfish 14 NNUE gives +0.8 at depth 41. That's a great opening advantage and the final position seems fairly miserable for black because of the bad pawn structure.
  
  Some comments have focused on the earlier 8.Re1 variation. Maybe that's because there are a couple of games in the database that have continued like that. I'm sure that variation gives an advantage for white as well, but I don't think one should give much value on non-prepared GM moves.
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_0**: Weirdly enough strong engines view the ending as equal (or rather holdable, Black is without prospects) after activating Black's bishop via c5, Bb7, but every path I've clicked through ends in a rook endgame a pawn down, and Black is left reacting to White's plans to prevent worse outcomes.  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_4 on 2024-06-24. Score: 2
  
  It is actually played even at top level. Some good examples are "Esipenko - Vidit 2022" or "Van Foreest - Erigaisi 2022". From a strategically point of view, the line makes complete sense as 4.d3 is already a somewhat passive move from white and it asks for a direct reaction.
  
  Let me give the actual theory line nowadays, and at the end I will show a game I played when I was 14, it was actually my first slow chess tournament.
  
  ```
    [Title "Main line"]
    [FEN ""]
   1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. O-O Bg4 7. h3 Bh5 8. Re1 Be7 9. g4 Bg6 10. Nxe5 Nxe5 11. Rxe5 Nb6 12. Bb3 O-O
  
  ```
  
  It gives a complex position with huge compensation for the pawn. Other moves for black are lest testing. A good example for black play can be checked in "Adhiban-Nguyen 2017", which obviously centers on attacking the weaknesses of white king.
  
  If any detail unclear feel free to ask. Now, in honour to my first steps on chess I will attach when I played this d5 idea against Raul Heras which is a sample of bad chess but gives some ideas of how not to play.
  
  ```
    [Title "My game"]
    [FEN ""]
    1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 d5 5. exd5 Nxd5 6. c3 Bc5 7. O-O O-O 8. Re1 Qd6 9. b4 Ndxb4 10. cxb4 Bd4 11. Nxd4 Qxd4 12. Qb3 Qxa1 13. Bb2 Nd4 14. Bxa1 Nxb3 15. Bxb3 Bf5 16. Re3 Rfe8 17. Nd2 Rad8 18. Bc4 c6 19. a4 Kf8 20. Ne4 Be6 21. Bxe6 Rxe6 22. Nc5 Re7 23. Bxe5 b6 24. Na6 f6 25. Bg3 Rxd3 26. h3 Rexe3 27. fxe3 Rxe3 28. Bf2 Ra3
  
  ```
  
  And no one knows how I achieved such a comeback. Anyhow, I hope I helped. Best regards!
  
  
  ---
  
  