<p>Thalin's ability fires before the "Surge" keyword can resolve, here's the <a href="https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/lotr-lcg/support/LotR-FAQ.pdf" rel="nofollow">official FAQ</a> entry:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>When an enemy card is revealed from the encounter
  deck, Thalin’s ability resolves before any keyword or
  “When Revealed” card effects on the encounter card</p>
</blockquote>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-02-24T15:48:34.780Z
What about when you're not playing with Thalin? Do you just cycle through the Eastern Crows cards until the end of the game? Or do you have to defend against the crows but not attack until the deck empties in order to shuffle the discard pile?
ShemSeger
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-02-24T18:11:29.927Z
I guess you could do that, but at that point the game should be easily won by questing anyway.
Also, i found [this thread](https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/644675/infinite-loop-crashed-my-game-eastern-crows-thalin) on BGG that talks about this exact situation.
Roberto de Lima Souza
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-02-24T21:21:35.380Z
The last post in that thread basically says you're stuck if you get to the end of the deck with 2 or 3 crow cards.
ShemSeger
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-06-23T21:54:42.760Z
@Shem Why are you stuck?  I can see that you might be drawing crows for the rest of the game, but that doesn't break anything.
bwarner
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-06-23T21:56:16.357Z
@bwarner That's lame. Gamers would call itta glitch.
ShemSeger
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-02-23T18:12:15.047Z
2015-02-23T18:12:15.047Z
Roberto de Lima Souza
<p>Thalin's <strong>revealed</strong> ability triggers before <strong>Surge</strong> so Eastern Crows immediately go back into the encounter deck and no surge card is drawn.</p>

<p>As long as the Eastern Crows aren't used as shadow cards, you'll have a pretty easy time with your quest phases for the rest of the game.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-03-31T23:52:48.797Z
2016-03-31T23:52:48.797Z
hansmosh
<p>What do you do when you get caught in an Eastern Crows loop? There are three Eastern Crows cards that get shuffled back into the encounter deck every time they're defeated (supposing none are drawn as shadow effect cards). If you go all the way through the encounter deck you will be left with these cards, and then you're stuck in and endless Eastern Crows loop because you never technically empty the encounter deck so you can't reshuffle the discard pile. If you're playing with Thalin it's even worse, because if he's committed to the quest, then he deals one damage to every enemy as it's dealt. So... Eastern crows comes out > gets dealt one damage > goes back in the deck. But it also has the surge keyword:</p>

<p><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/ryzEV.png" alt="enter image description here"></p>

<p>So one more card is drawn from the deck, and it's Eastern Crows again... and the cycle starts over again...</p>

<p><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/M2R6C.jpg" alt="enter image description here"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/uOg4O.jpg" alt="enter image description here"></p>

<p><strong>THALIN</strong><br>
<strong>Dwarf. Warrior.</strong> 
While Thalin is committed to a quest, deal 1 damage to each enemy as it is revealed by the encounter deck.</p>

<p><strong>EASTERN CROWS</strong><br>
<strong>Creature.</strong><br> 
Surge.<br>
<strong>Forced:</strong> After Eastern Crows is defeated, <em>shuffle it back into the encounter deck.</em> </p>

<p>What's the solution here? Do you just play with Eastern crows until the end of the quest? </p>

<the-lord-of-the-rings-lcg>
What do you do when you get stuck in an Eastern Crows loop?
ShemSeger
# What do you do when you get stuck in an Eastern Crows loop?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2015-02-19)

What do you do when you get caught in an Eastern Crows loop? There are three Eastern Crows cards that get shuffled back into the encounter deck every time they're defeated (supposing none are drawn as shadow effect cards). If you go all the way through the encounter deck you will be left with these cards, and then you're stuck in and endless Eastern Crows loop because you never technically empty the encounter deck so you can't reshuffle the discard pile. If you're playing with Thalin it's even worse, because if he's committed to the quest, then he deals one damage to every enemy as it's dealt. So... Eastern crows comes out > gets dealt one damage > goes back in the deck. But it also has the surge keyword:

![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/ryzEV.png)

So one more card is drawn from the deck, and it's Eastern Crows again... and the cycle starts over again...

![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/M2R6C.jpg)![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/uOg4O.jpg)

**THALIN**  
**Dwarf. Warrior.**
While Thalin is committed to a quest, deal 1 damage to each enemy as it is revealed by the encounter deck.

**EASTERN CROWS**  
**Creature.**  
Surge.  
**Forced:** After Eastern Crows is defeated, *shuffle it back into the encounter deck.*

What's the solution here? Do you just play with Eastern crows until the end of the quest?

**Tags:** the-lord-of-the-rings-lcg


---

## 2 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2015-02-23. Score: 3 | Accepted answer

Thalin's ability fires before the "Surge" keyword can resolve, here's the [official FAQ](https://images-cdn.fantasyflightgames.com/ffg_content/lotr-lcg/support/LotR-FAQ.pdf) entry:

> When an enemy card is revealed from the encounter
> deck, Thalin’s ability resolves before any keyword or
> “When Revealed” card effects on the encounter card

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: What about when you're not playing with Thalin? Do you just cycle through the Eastern Crows cards until the end of the game? Or do you have to defend against the crows but not attack until the deck empties in order to shuffle the discard pile?  
> **username_1**: I guess you could do that, but at that point the game should be easily won by questing anyway. Also, i found [this thread](https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/644675/infinite-loop-crashed-my-game-eastern-crows-thalin) on BGG that talks about this exact situation.  
> **username_0**: The last post in that thread basically says you're stuck if you get to the end of the deck with 2 or 3 crow cards.  
> **username_2**: @Shem Why are you stuck?  I can see that you might be drawing crows for the rest of the game, but that doesn't break anything.  
> **username_0**: @username_2 That's lame. Gamers would call itta glitch.  

---

### Answer by username_3 on 2016-03-31. Score: 2

Thalin's **revealed** ability triggers before **Surge** so Eastern Crows immediately go back into the encounter deck and no surge card is drawn.

As long as the Eastern Crows aren't used as shadow cards, you'll have a pretty easy time with your quest phases for the rest of the game.


---

