<p>A creature's power and toughness aren;t counters in and of themselves, they are characteristics of the 'Creature' card type. From the <a href="http://media.wizards.com/2017/downloads/MagicCompRules_20170428.txt" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Comprehensive rules</a>, ad 302:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>302.4. Power and toughness are characteristics only creatures have.</p>
  
  <p>302.4a A creature’s power is the amount of damage it deals in combat.</p>
  
  <p>302.4b A creature’s toughness is the amount of damage needed to destroy it.</p>
  
  <p>302.4c To determine a creature’s power and toughness, start with the numbers printed in its lower right corner, [...]</p>
</blockquote>

<p>These can then be altered using enchantments, instants, sorceries, abilities of sources such as other creatures or planeswalkers, and artifacts/equipment. Most of these effects are temporary in that they only last until end of turn (<a class="mtg-autocard" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bGiant%20Growth%5d">Giant Growth</a>, or while the source is in play (<a class="mtg-autocard" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bGlorious%20Anthem%5d">Glorious Anthem</a>). And sometimes this boost is done using counters which stay with the permanent when its source leaves play (<a class="mtg-autocard" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bBond%20Beetle%5d">Bond Beetle</a>).</p>

<p>Counters are governed by their own set of rules:</p>

<blockquote>
  <ol start="121">
  <li>Counters</li>
  </ol>
  
  <p>121.1. A counter is a marker placed on an object or player that modifies its characteristics and/or interacts with a rule, ability, or effect. Counters are not objects and have no characteristics.[...]</p>
</blockquote>

<p>And onwards...</p>

<p>In conclusion, you can only move a counter from a permanent when that counter is there in the first place, and base P/T are not counters.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-05-11T11:05:24.043Z
2017-05-11T11:05:24.043Z
steenbergh
<p>From the rules : </p>

<blockquote>
  <p>121.5. If an effect says to “move” a counter, it means to take that counter from the object it’s currently on and put it onto a second
  object. If the first and second objects are the same object, nothing
  happens. <strong>If the first object has no counters, nothing happens; the
  second object doesn’t get a counter put on it.</strong> If the second object
  (or any possible second objects) is no longer in the correct zone when
  the effect would move the counter, nothing happens; a counter isn’t
  removed from the first object.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Your Aetherborn Marauder doesn't get any counter if the target of its ETB ability doesn't have counters when the ability resolve.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-06-17T19:08:16.243Z
I didn't see "target" in the phrasing of its ETB.
Acccumulation
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-05-11T08:58:49.137Z
2017-05-11T08:58:49.137Z
AngryFishLady
<p>So my brother play <a class="mtg-autocard" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bAetherborn%20Marauder%5d">Aetherborn Marauder</a>. He wants to move three +1/+1 counters from a 4/4 with no previous interaction with any +1/+1 counters. I insist that a +1/+1 counter must have been put on it first, and that its base P/T are not applicable due to the use of the word "counter". </p>

<p>Anyone able to quote the rulebook for this one?</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-05-11T08:12:15.523Z
Yes, you can't MOVE counters from a permanent without counters obviously. Finding this in the comp rules might be harder.
counterflux
<magic-the-gathering>
Can an Aetherborn Marauder take +1/+1 counters off a creature that didn't have them (but has P/T to spare)?
Konner Rasmussen
# Can an Aetherborn Marauder take +1/+1 counters off a creature that didn't have them (but has P/T to spare)?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2017-05-11)

So my brother play [Aetherborn Marauder](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bAetherborn%20Marauder%5d). He wants to move three +1/+1 counters from a 4/4 with no previous interaction with any +1/+1 counters. I insist that a +1/+1 counter must have been put on it first, and that its base P/T are not applicable due to the use of the word "counter".

Anyone able to quote the rulebook for this one?

**Tags:** magic-the-gathering

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: Yes, you can't MOVE counters from a permanent without counters obviously. Finding this in the comp rules might be harder.  

---

## 2 answers

### Answer by username_3 on 2017-05-11. Score: 9 | Accepted answer

From the rules :

> 121.5. If an effect says to “move” a counter, it means to take that counter from the object it’s currently on and put it onto a second
> object. If the first and second objects are the same object, nothing
> happens. **If the first object has no counters, nothing happens; the
> second object doesn’t get a counter put on it.** If the second object
> (or any possible second objects) is no longer in the correct zone when
> the effect would move the counter, nothing happens; a counter isn’t
> removed from the first object.

Your Aetherborn Marauder doesn't get any counter if the target of its ETB ability doesn't have counters when the ability resolve.

> **Comments:**
> **username_4**: I didn't see "target" in the phrasing of its ETB.  

---

### Answer by username_2 on 2017-05-11. Score: 1

A creature's power and toughness aren;t counters in and of themselves, they are characteristics of the 'Creature' card type. From the [Comprehensive rules](http://media.wizards.com/2017/downloads/MagicCompRules_20170428.txt), ad 302:

> 302.4. Power and toughness are characteristics only creatures have.
>
> 302.4a A creature’s power is the amount of damage it deals in combat.
>
> 302.4b A creature’s toughness is the amount of damage needed to destroy it.
>
> 302.4c To determine a creature’s power and toughness, start with the numbers printed in its lower right corner, [...]

These can then be altered using enchantments, instants, sorceries, abilities of sources such as other creatures or planeswalkers, and artifacts/equipment. Most of these effects are temporary in that they only last until end of turn ([Giant Growth](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bGiant%20Growth%5d), or while the source is in play ([Glorious Anthem](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bGlorious%20Anthem%5d)). And sometimes this boost is done using counters which stay with the permanent when its source leaves play ([Bond Beetle](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bBond%20Beetle%5d)).

Counters are governed by their own set of rules:

> 121. Counters
>
> 121.1. A counter is a marker placed on an object or player that modifies its characteristics and/or interacts with a rule, ability, or effect. Counters are not objects and have no characteristics.[...]

And onwards...

In conclusion, you can only move a counter from a permanent when that counter is there in the first place, and base P/T are not counters.


---

