<p><strong>The Arcbound Worker will return with 2 +1/+1 counters and one -1/-1 counter on it, resulting in one +1/+1 counter after state-based actions. Also, there is no infinite loop.</strong></p>
<p>Hardened Scales' ability is not a triggered ability. It is a static ability with a replacement effect, so while it is in play, the Worker will always enter the battlefield with two +1/+1 counters on it; the game will never see the Worker with a single +1/+1 counter on it before state-based actions or other effects are processed.</p>
<p>Therefore, when the Persisted Worker returns to play with Hardened Scales on the battlefield, the Worker will have two +1/+1 counters (from Modular and Hardened Scales) and one -1/-1 from Persist. State-based actions cause the -1/-1 and one +1/+1 counter to cancel out, resulting in a Worker with one +1/+1 counter on it before a player gets priority.</p>
<p>In any case, there is no infinite loop because when the Worker returns because of Persist, it becomes a new object that no longer has persist. You would have to somehow untap the Cauldron and give the new Worker Persist again.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2016-09-30T10:25:10.087Z
2024-11-06T15:00:56.080Z
2024-11-06T15:00:56.080Z
Hackworth
<p>Hardened Scales creates a replacement effect. The event of Arcbound Worker receiving one +1/+1 counter is replaced with it receiving two +1/+1 counters. Once a replacement effect has replaced an event, it does not apply again to the resulting event:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>614.5. A replacement effect doesn’t invoke itself repeatedly; it gets only one opportunity to affect an event or any modified events that may replace it.
  Example: A player controls two permanents, each with an ability that reads “If a creature you control would deal damage to a permanent or player, it deals double that damage to that permanent or player instead.” A creature that normally deals 2 damage will deal 8 damage—not just 4, and not an infinite amount.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Since the second +1/+1 is part of the replacement effect, it is not replaced. You just get two counters, and there is no loop.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-10-15T04:01:47.567Z
2019-10-15T12:29:18.520Z
2019-10-15T12:29:18.520Z
Acccumulation
<p>First off, let me preface with that I do know that +1 and -1 counters cancel out.</p>

<p>Now, the cards for this play are:<br/></p>

<blockquote>
  <p>1 : <a class="mtg-autocard" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bArcbound%20Worker%5d">Arcbound Worker</a>(or any modular 1 critter)<br/>
  1+: <a class="mtg-autocard" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bHardened%20Scales%5d">Hardened Scales</a><br/>
  1 : <a class="mtg-autocard" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bCauldron%20of%20Souls%5d">Cauldron of Souls</a>.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>To set the field, all are in play, and Arcbound worker has 2 +1/+1 counters on it. (Achieved when it was brought into play, triggering Hardened Scales)</p>

<p>The question is, if I give the Worker persist, have it swing, and try to bring it back from the grave, does it come back with a -1/-1 counter and a +1/+1 counter, and an additional +1/+1 counter thus resulting in a possible loop? Or do the counters cancel out before I can say Scales triggers?</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-09-30T13:29:09.677Z
It's not a loop in any case, as you'd have to activate Cauldron of Souls every time Arcbound Worker re-enters the battlefield to give it Persist again, and nothing you described allows you to do this.
TheThirdMan
CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-09-30T13:41:30.283Z
What is the actual question that, if answered, would help **you** determine whether the cards involved cause an infinite loop? That's the question that you should be asking.
Rainbolt
<magic-the-gathering>
Does Persist, Modular, and Hardened Scales give me an infinite loop?
Alexander P
# Does Persist, Modular, and Hardened Scales give me an infinite loop?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2016-09-30)

First off, let me preface with that I do know that +1 and -1 counters cancel out.

Now, the cards for this play are:

> 1 : [Arcbound Worker](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bArcbound%20Worker%5d)(or any modular 1 critter)  
> 1+: [Hardened Scales](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bHardened%20Scales%5d)  
> 1 : [Cauldron of Souls](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bCauldron%20of%20Souls%5d).

To set the field, all are in play, and Arcbound worker has 2 +1/+1 counters on it. (Achieved when it was brought into play, triggering Hardened Scales)

The question is, if I give the Worker persist, have it swing, and try to bring it back from the grave, does it come back with a -1/-1 counter and a +1/+1 counter, and an additional +1/+1 counter thus resulting in a possible loop? Or do the counters cancel out before I can say Scales triggers?

**Tags:** magic-the-gathering

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: It's not a loop in any case, as you'd have to activate Cauldron of Souls every time Arcbound Worker re-enters the battlefield to give it Persist again, and nothing you described allows you to do this.  
> **username_2**: What is the actual question that, if answered, would help **you** determine whether the cards involved cause an infinite loop? That's the question that you should be asking.  

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## 2 answers

### Answer by username_3 on 2016-09-30. Score: 7 | Accepted answer

**The Arcbound Worker will return with 2 +1/+1 counters and one -1/-1 counter on it, resulting in one +1/+1 counter after state-based actions. Also, there is no infinite loop.**

Hardened Scales' ability is not a triggered ability. It is a static ability with a replacement effect, so while it is in play, the Worker will always enter the battlefield with two +1/+1 counters on it; the game will never see the Worker with a single +1/+1 counter on it before state-based actions or other effects are processed.

Therefore, when the Persisted Worker returns to play with Hardened Scales on the battlefield, the Worker will have two +1/+1 counters (from Modular and Hardened Scales) and one -1/-1 from Persist. State-based actions cause the -1/-1 and one +1/+1 counter to cancel out, resulting in a Worker with one +1/+1 counter on it before a player gets priority.

In any case, there is no infinite loop because when the Worker returns because of Persist, it becomes a new object that no longer has persist. You would have to somehow untap the Cauldron and give the new Worker Persist again.


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### Answer by username_4 on 2019-10-15. Score: 0

Hardened Scales creates a replacement effect. The event of Arcbound Worker receiving one +1/+1 counter is replaced with it receiving two +1/+1 counters. Once a replacement effect has replaced an event, it does not apply again to the resulting event:

> 614.5. A replacement effect doesn’t invoke itself repeatedly; it gets only one opportunity to affect an event or any modified events that may replace it.
> Example: A player controls two permanents, each with an ability that reads “If a creature you control would deal damage to a permanent or player, it deals double that damage to that permanent or player instead.” A creature that normally deals 2 damage will deal 8 damage—not just 4, and not an infinite amount.

Since the second +1/+1 is part of the replacement effect, it is not replaced. You just get two counters, and there is no loop.


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