<p><a class="mtg-autocard" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Minas%20Tirith">Minas Tirith</a> <strong>will not</strong> count creatures put onto the battlefield by <a class="mtg-autocard" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Doors%20of%20Durin">Doors of Durin</a>.</p>
<p>Clearing up the Activation instructions on Minas Tirith may help here,</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Activate only if you attacked with two or more creatures this turn</p>
</blockquote>
<p>is divided like this:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Activate only if [player] [attacked with {x} creatures this turn]</p>
</blockquote>
<p>The &quot;<em>attacked with {x} or more creatures</em>&quot; condition on <strong>Minas Tirith</strong> will only count creatures that have been declared as part of the <em>Declare Attackers Step</em>.</p>
<p>This is directly clarified by a ruling on <a class="mtg-autocard" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Windbrisk%20Heights">Windbrisk Heights</a> that reads</p>
<blockquote>
<p>At the time the ability resolves, you'll get to play the card if you declared three different creatures as attackers at any point in the turn. A creature declared as an attacker in two different attack phases counts only once. A creature that entered the battlefield attacking (such as a token created by <a class="mtg-autocard" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Militia%27s%20Pride">Militia&#39;s Pride</a>) doesn't count because you never attacked with it.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Which references the last part of rule <strong>508.4</strong> in the <a href="https://magic.wizards.com/en/rules" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Comprehensive Rules</a></p>
<blockquote>
<p>508.4. If a creature is put onto the battlefield attacking, its controller chooses which defending player, planeswalker a defending player controls, or battle a defending player protects it’s attacking as it enters the battlefield (unless the effect that put it onto the battlefield specifies what it’s attacking). Similarly, if an effect states that a creature is attacking, its controller chooses which defending player, planeswalker a defending player controls, or battle a defending player protects it’s attacking (unless the effect has already specified). <strong>Such creatures are “attacking” but, for the purposes of trigger events and effects, they never “attacked.”</strong></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Combined together; you (the active player) have only &quot;<em>attacked with {x} or more creatures</em>&quot; if you have declared {x} or more <em>different</em> creatures as attackers as part of the <em>Declare Attackers Step</em>.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-28T12:58:42.613Z
Assuming we are correct about the part of my answer that explains that's about its controller, not itself.
Cees Timmerman
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-28T23:02:57.973Z
ahh, you need to take the whole "something" to work out when a controller has done that "something", on Minas Tirith the "something" is not just "attacked"
KMR
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-29T11:34:56.940Z
Two creatures must have attacked, which means per 508.6 that the player declared them attackers. I could take control of creatures who attacked this turn but it's about me having declared them.
Cees Timmerman
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-29T12:04:23.183Z
It's about the player (you) taking an action (attacking with two or more creatures this turn), 508.6 is not sufficient here, as you can still activate the ability after attacking a Planeswalker or Battle.

508.6 covers rules text on cards like [Curse of Verbosity](https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=433250)
KMR
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-27T05:00:30.183Z
2023-06-29T11:54:12.440Z
2023-06-29T11:54:12.440Z
KMR
<p><strong>No.</strong> According to the <a href="https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/cr508/" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Comprehensive Rules</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>508.6 A player is “attacking [a player]” if the first player controls a creature that is attacking the second player. <strong>A player has “attacked</strong>
[a player]” if the first player declared one or more creatures as
attackers attacking the second player.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>So two creatures would be attacking for example a player (instead of a Planeswalker or Battle), but you only would have attacked with one creature.</p>
<p><a href="https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/45811/with-regards-to-an-effect-that-triggers-when-a-creature-attacks-how-does-it-ent?noredirect=1&amp;lq=1">A separate question about triggers</a> is also explained here:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>508.4 If a creature is put onto the battlefield attacking, its controller chooses which defending player or which planeswalker a
defending player controls it’s attacking as it enters the battlefield
(unless the effect that put it onto the battlefield specifies what
it’s attacking). Similarly, if an effect states that a creature is
attacking, its controller chooses which defending player or which
planeswalker a defending player controls it’s attacking it becomes
attacking (unless the effect has already specified). <strong>Such creatures
are “attacking” but, for the purposes of trigger events and effects,
they never “attacked.</strong>”</p>
</blockquote>
<p>So &quot;Whenever CARDNAME attacks&quot; triggers don't, &quot;<a href="https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=491623" rel="nofollow noreferrer">CARDNAME attacked</a>&quot; doesn't, and the full rule is: &quot;<strong>you attacked</strong> with this instance of CARDNAME&quot;.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-20T13:20:20.877Z
The issue is that declaring attackers and number of creatures attacking can be different numbers.  Anything that puts a creature into play attacking already doesn't count the creature at being declared an attacker
Styxsksu
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-20T23:16:10.603Z
Rule 508.4 is the more relevant one here, as it directly addresses the question
KMR
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-21T08:01:51.473Z
@KMR Abilities cause effects, but the ability of Minas Tirith is about the player, not the creature.
Cees Timmerman
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-21T09:27:04.477Z
Likewise [O-Kagachi, Vengeful Kami](https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=578780) would not exile if you attacked its controller last turn without declaring it.
Cees Timmerman
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-21T22:29:21.023Z
@CeesTimmerman you just need to read the last part _Such creatures are “attacking” but, for the purposes of trigger events and effects, they never “attacked.”_, otherwise you can also just look at the first ruling on __Windbrisk Heights__
KMR
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-22T09:21:32.780Z
@CeesTimmerman afaik, there is no way to attack a player without declaring. All “put onto battlefield attacking” trigger on attacks
Matthew Jensen
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-22T10:09:53.243Z
@KMR Again, that's about creatures, and [the Windbrisk Heights ruling](https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?multiverseid=145798) is about a player declaring attacks to have "attacked".
Cees Timmerman
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-22T10:12:58.993Z
@MatthewJensen [Creatures entering attacking don't trigger attack effects.](https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/45811/with-regards-to-an-effect-that-triggers-when-a-creature-attacks-how-does-it-ent?noredirect=1&lq=1) and [choosing attack targets does not declare.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgrules/comments/11bjxfy/comment/j9y5uu8/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Cees Timmerman
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-22T21:30:36.703Z
@CeesTimmerman I know. I mean there is no way to have an attacking creature without having declared some creature as an attacker. I was thinking there is no way to have a creature attacking O-Kagachi's controller without it triggering, but then I realised you can attack an opponent to have a creature enter attacking a different opponent.
Matthew Jensen
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-23T01:00:30.413Z
@CeesTimmerman Again, 508.4 is more relevant than 508.6, 508.6 is about one player attacking another, Minas Tirith will still activate if you attack a battle or planeswalker.
Both Windbrisk Heights and Minas Tirith have the same templated condition "if you attacked with {x} or more creatures this turn"
KMR
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-26T15:44:39.610Z
@KMR Noted, and that's completely different from "Whenever {x} attacks". Neither 508.4 or 508.6 are even mentioned in the answers to [the question about attack triggers.](https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/45811/with-regards-to-an-effect-that-triggers-when-a-creature-attacks-how-does-it-ent?noredirect=1&lq=1)
Cees Timmerman
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-19T10:36:16.787Z
2023-06-26T16:35:06.353Z
2023-06-26T16:35:06.353Z
Cees Timmerman
<p><a href="https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=617086" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Minas Tirith</a> lets you draw a card (as an activated ability, NOT a trigger) if you attacked with two or more creatures this turn:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>1White, Tap: Draw a card. Activate only if <strong>you attacked</strong> with two or
more creatures this turn.</p>
</blockquote>
<p><a href="https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=617029" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Doors of Durin</a> can put a creature into play attacking.</p>
<p>If Doors of Durin adds a second attacker, will that count for Minas Tirith, or does &quot;attacked with&quot; count only declared attackers?</p>
<p>To the close voters: <strong>This is about a player, not a creature or its triggers.</strong></p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-19T10:27:45.857Z
@PhilipKendall No. I'm just referring to that part because it's ambiguous whether Minas counts attack on declaration or later.
Cees Timmerman
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-19T10:34:07.157Z
Which bit of the Kaalia ruling in the accepted answer to that question isn't clear? "Any abilities that trigger [...] when a creature attacks won’t trigger for that card."
Philip Kendall
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-19T10:38:15.573Z
Minas Tirith does not trigger when a creature attacks. Have you read the card?
Cees Timmerman
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-21T03:04:53.563Z
While this question is similar to the proposed duplicate, the difference between "whenever X attacks" and "if you attacked with X" is enough to justify keeping this question open.
Matthew Jensen
<magic-the-gathering>
Does Minas Tirith work with Doors of Durin?
Cees Timmerman
# Does Minas Tirith work with Doors of Durin?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2023-06-19)

[Minas Tirith](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=617086) lets you draw a card (as an activated ability, NOT a trigger) if you attacked with two or more creatures this turn:

> 1White, Tap: Draw a card. Activate only if **you attacked** with two or
> more creatures this turn.

[Doors of Durin](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=617029) can put a creature into play attacking.

If Doors of Durin adds a second attacker, will that count for Minas Tirith, or does "attacked with" count only declared attackers?

To the close voters: **This is about a player, not a creature or its triggers.**

**Tags:** magic-the-gathering

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: @username_1 No. I'm just referring to that part because it's ambiguous whether Minas counts attack on declaration or later.  
> **username_1**: Which bit of the Kaalia ruling in the accepted answer to that question isn't clear? "Any abilities that trigger [...] when a creature attacks won’t trigger for that card."  
> **username_0**: Minas Tirith does not trigger when a creature attacks. Have you read the card?  
> **username_2**: While this question is similar to the proposed duplicate, the difference between "whenever X attacks" and "if you attacked with X" is enough to justify keeping this question open.  

---

## 2 answers

### Answer by username_0 on 2023-06-19. Score: 8 | Accepted answer

**No.** According to the [Comprehensive Rules](https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/cr508/):

> 508.6 A player is “attacking [a player]” if the first player controls a creature that is attacking the second player. **A player has “attacked**
> [a player]” if the first player declared one or more creatures as
> attackers attacking the second player.

So two creatures would be attacking for example a player (instead of a Planeswalker or Battle), but you only would have attacked with one creature.

[A separate question about triggers](https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/45811/with-regards-to-an-effect-that-triggers-when-a-creature-attacks-how-does-it-ent?noredirect=1&lq=1) is also explained here:

> 508.4 If a creature is put onto the battlefield attacking, its controller chooses which defending player or which planeswalker a
> defending player controls it’s attacking as it enters the battlefield
> (unless the effect that put it onto the battlefield specifies what
> it’s attacking). Similarly, if an effect states that a creature is
> attacking, its controller chooses which defending player or which
> planeswalker a defending player controls it’s attacking it becomes
> attacking (unless the effect has already specified). **Such creatures
> are “attacking” but, for the purposes of trigger events and effects,
> they never “attacked.**”

So "Whenever CARDNAME attacks" triggers don't, "[CARDNAME attacked](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=491623)" doesn't, and the full rule is: "**you attacked** with this instance of CARDNAME".

> **Comments:**
> **username_4**: The issue is that declaring attackers and number of creatures attacking can be different numbers.  Anything that puts a creature into play attacking already doesn't count the creature at being declared an attacker  
> **username_3**: Rule 508.4 is the more relevant one here, as it directly addresses the question  
> **username_0**: @username_3 Abilities cause effects, but the ability of Minas Tirith is about the player, not the creature.  
> **username_0**: Likewise [O-Kagachi, Vengeful Kami](https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=578780) would not exile if you attacked its controller last turn without declaring it.  
> **username_3**: @username_0 you just need to read the last part _Such creatures are “attacking” but, for the purposes of trigger events and effects, they never “attacked.”_, otherwise you can also just look at the first ruling on __Windbrisk Heights__  
> **username_2**: @username_0 afaik, there is no way to attack a player without declaring. All “put onto battlefield attacking” trigger on attacks  
> **username_0**: @username_3 Again, that's about creatures, and [the Windbrisk Heights ruling](https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/details.aspx?multiverseid=145798) is about a player declaring attacks to have "attacked".  
> **username_0**: @username_2 [Creatures entering attacking don't trigger attack effects.](https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/45811/with-regards-to-an-effect-that-triggers-when-a-creature-attacks-how-does-it-ent?noredirect=1&lq=1) and [choosing attack targets does not declare.](https://www.reddit.com/r/mtgrules/comments/11bjxfy/comment/j9y5uu8/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)  
> **username_2**: @username_0 I know. I mean there is no way to have an attacking creature without having declared some creature as an attacker. I was thinking there is no way to have a creature attacking O-Kagachi's controller without it triggering, but then I realised you can attack an opponent to have a creature enter attacking a different opponent.  
> **username_3**: @username_0 Again, 508.4 is more relevant than 508.6, 508.6 is about one player attacking another, Minas Tirith will still activate if you attack a battle or planeswalker. Both Windbrisk Heights and Minas Tirith have the same templated condition "if you attacked with {x} or more creatures this turn"  
> **username_0**: @username_3 Noted, and that's completely different from "Whenever {x} attacks". Neither 508.4 or 508.6 are even mentioned in the answers to [the question about attack triggers.](https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/45811/with-regards-to-an-effect-that-triggers-when-a-creature-attacks-how-does-it-ent?noredirect=1&lq=1)  

---

### Answer by username_3 on 2023-06-27. Score: 1

[Minas Tirith](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Minas%20Tirith) **will not** count creatures put onto the battlefield by [Doors of Durin](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Doors%20of%20Durin).

Clearing up the Activation instructions on Minas Tirith may help here,

> Activate only if you attacked with two or more creatures this turn

is divided like this:

> Activate only if [player] [attacked with {x} creatures this turn]

The "*attacked with {x} or more creatures*" condition on **Minas Tirith** will only count creatures that have been declared as part of the *Declare Attackers Step*.

This is directly clarified by a ruling on [Windbrisk Heights](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Windbrisk%20Heights) that reads

> At the time the ability resolves, you'll get to play the card if you declared three different creatures as attackers at any point in the turn. A creature declared as an attacker in two different attack phases counts only once. A creature that entered the battlefield attacking (such as a token created by [Militia's Pride](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Militia%27s%20Pride)) doesn't count because you never attacked with it.

Which references the last part of rule **508.4** in the [Comprehensive Rules](https://magic.wizards.com/en/rules)

> 508.4. If a creature is put onto the battlefield attacking, its controller chooses which defending player, planeswalker a defending player controls, or battle a defending player protects it’s attacking as it enters the battlefield (unless the effect that put it onto the battlefield specifies what it’s attacking). Similarly, if an effect states that a creature is attacking, its controller chooses which defending player, planeswalker a defending player controls, or battle a defending player protects it’s attacking (unless the effect has already specified). **Such creatures are “attacking” but, for the purposes of trigger events and effects, they never “attacked.”**

Combined together; you (the active player) have only "*attacked with {x} or more creatures*" if you have declared {x} or more *different* creatures as attackers as part of the *Declare Attackers Step*.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Assuming we are correct about the part of my answer that explains that's about its controller, not itself.  
> **username_3**: ahh, you need to take the whole "something" to work out when a controller has done that "something", on Minas Tirith the "something" is not just "attacked"  
> **username_0**: Two creatures must have attacked, which means per 508.6 that the player declared them attackers. I could take control of creatures who attacked this turn but it's about me having declared them.  
> **username_3**: It's about the player (you) taking an action (attacking with two or more creatures this turn), 508.6 is not sufficient here, as you can still activate the ability after attacking a Planeswalker or Battle.  508.6 covers rules text on cards like [Curse of Verbosity](https://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=433250)  

---

