<p>In general, this kind of fight is going to get you into trouble - you have a bunch of separate groups to take care of.  If your strategy before Black's invasion was sound, then you should be able to get a useful wall out of the invasion.  In that case, it's generally better to just keep extending along the fourth line.  So, instead of 20, I would just extend.  Black gets two points/move, and you're getting thickness that's worth more.</p>

<p>In the first diagram, if 39 is at 40, then isn't Black alive?</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-28T23:00:20.920Z
"if 39 is at 40, then isn't Black alive?" looks correct to me also.
Forget I was ever here
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-28T13:55:38.913Z
2015-01-28T13:55:38.913Z
TimK
<p>Black is just hardly alive, as you can see from this diagram:</p>

<pre><code>
$$Wm30
$$ |...OOXXXXXXOO......|
$$ |....12.6.435.......|
$$ |...................|
$$ -------------------
$$
</code></pre>

<p>Now white can play a big point elsewhere. White's position to the outer side look solid.</p>

<p>When white comes back in the endgame, the result may look like</p>

<pre><code>
$$Wm36
$$ |...OOXXXXXXOO......|
$$ |....OX.X.XOO.......|
$$ |.....21534.........|
$$ --------------------
$$
</code></pre>

<p>and black lives in a seki with 0 points of area.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-30T21:11:30.147Z
2015-02-26T16:31:30.067Z
2015-02-26T16:31:30.067Z
Sir Cornflakes
<p>I just tried a fight that ended up this:</p>

<p><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/tahQt.png" alt="enter image description here"></p>

<p>Can the black stones be killed? It's whites move. </p>

<p><strong>First, let's assume that white's chain is safe</strong> and look at it as tsumego. I tried several sequences but it seems that black is dead:</p>

<p><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/up9df.png" alt="enter image description here"></p>

<p><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/p2Ij0.png" alt="enter image description here"></p>

<p>Second, is this fight naive or realistic? I was just trying to cope with black invasion stone at F3 and tried to seal it. Maybe there is a better approach how to treat it? Let him live peacefully and just build wall on the 4th line?</p>

<p><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/BfeLU.png" alt="enter image description here"></p>

<p><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/f2g5U.png" alt="enter image description here">
<img src="https://i.sstatic.net/QsUBG.png" alt="enter image description here"></p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-29T11:15:59.793Z
In the second to last picture, 7 should be either at 9 or at C3. Once black gets 15, there is absolutely no way to kill it - however, the shown sequence is not correct in several places. For instance, 19 should definitely be at 20, and black can very easily live with 21 at M2, even though he has even better ways.
mafu
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-01-29T11:20:37.703Z
I know there is a book which explains this sort of situation, but I just can't remember which one it was. It also covered why 7 is a mistake (a classic - everyone made it at one point in their Go career, I bet).
mafu
<go>
Fight - can black stones be killed?
Tomas
# Fight - can black stones be killed?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2015-01-28)

I just tried a fight that ended up this:

![enter image description username_3](https://i.sstatic.net/tahQt.png)

Can the black stones be killed? It's whites move.

**First, let's assume that white's chain is safe** and look at it as tsumego. I tried several sequences but it seems that black is dead:

![enter image description username_3](https://i.sstatic.net/up9df.png)

![enter image description username_3](https://i.sstatic.net/p2Ij0.png)

Second, is this fight naive or realistic? I was just trying to cope with black invasion stone at F3 and tried to seal it. Maybe there is a better approach how to treat it? Let him live peacefully and just build wall on the 4th line?

![enter image description username_3](https://i.sstatic.net/BfeLU.png)

![enter image description username_3](https://i.sstatic.net/f2g5U.png)
![enter image description username_3](https://i.sstatic.net/QsUBG.png)

**Tags:** go

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: In the second to last picture, 7 should be either at 9 or at C3. Once black gets 15, there is absolutely no way to kill it - however, the shown sequence is not correct in several places. For instance, 19 should definitely be at 20, and black can very easily live with 21 at M2, even though he has even better ways.  
> **username_1**: I know there is a book which explains this sort of situation, but I just can't remember which one it was. It also covered why 7 is a mistake (a classic - everyone made it at one point in their Go career, I bet).  

---

## 2 answers

### Answer by username_2 on 2015-01-28. Score: 4

In general, this kind of fight is going to get you into trouble - you have a bunch of separate groups to take care of. If your strategy before Black's invasion was sound, then you should be able to get a useful wall out of the invasion. In that case, it's generally better to just keep extending along the fourth line. So, instead of 20, I would just extend. Black gets two points/move, and you're getting thickness that's worth more.

In the first diagram, if 39 is at 40, then isn't Black alive?

> **Comments:**
> **username_3**: "if 39 is at 40, then isn't Black alive?" looks correct to me also.  

---

### Answer by username_4 on 2015-01-30. Score: 4

Black is just hardly alive, as you can see from this diagram:

```

$$Wm30
$$ |...OOXXXXXXOO......|
$$ |....12.6.435.......|
$$ |...................|
$$ -------------------
$$

```

Now white can play a big point elsewhere. White's position to the outer side look solid.

When white comes back in the endgame, the result may look like

```

$$Wm36
$$ |...OOXXXXXXOO......|
$$ |....OX.X.XOO.......|
$$ |.....21534.........|
$$ --------------------
$$

```

and black lives in a seki with 0 points of area.


---

