<p>First of all, Mikaeus doesn't grant any counters. This is covered by <a href="https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/q/18214/2880">Are +1/+1 counters different from +1/+1 effects?</a></p>

<p>So you start with a 6/6 Mob with undying and 5 +1/+1 counters.</p>

<p>When a player casts a spell, the Mob will lose a counter, and you will gain a 3/3 zombie with undying. The counter is not placed on the zombie; it simply ceases to exist, so the physical object representing it is removed from the game.</p>

<p>Nothing causes the Mob to gain tokens when a zombie dies. This means you can create at most 5 zombies. But thanks to Mikaeus, the Mob won't be destroyed when it loses all of its counters (since it'll still be 1/1).</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-06-03T18:18:30.370Z
2017-06-03T18:18:30.370Z
ikegami
<p>It's important to note the difference between +1/+1 as a static buff, and +1/+1 counters - <a class="mtg-autocard" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bMikaeus%2c%20the%20Unhallowed%5d">Mikaeus, the Unhallowed</a> provides a static buff (which isn't represented by a counter, but instead "just there"), whereas <a class="mtg-autocard" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bNoosegraf%20Mob%5d">Noosegraf Mob</a> actually has counters placed on it.</p>

<p>The +1/+1 that <a class="mtg-autocard" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bMikaeus%2c%20the%20Unhallowed%5d">Mikaeus, the Unhallowed</a> provides can't be removed by <a class="mtg-autocard" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bNoosegraf%20Mob%5d">Noosegraf Mob</a>'s ability, and neither will you get a Zombie from it. It will, however, allow <a class="mtg-autocard" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bNoosegraf%20Mob%5d">Noosegraf Mob</a> to survive on the battlefield as a 1/1 creature after all of it's counters have been removed.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-06-03T18:36:28.013Z
@ikegami: Before the title change, there was no reason to assume that there was any confusion about that, and I still find it hard to see that this would be what the questioner intended to ask.
TheThirdMan
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-06-03T22:16:11.457Z
@ikegami: The way they asked that implies a connection to Mikaeus's ability, the way I understand it, and as I said, I didn't see any reason to assume anything in this question *isn't* about Mikaeus before the title change. That said, the original question was rather inconclusive in a few ways, and you may well be right with your conclusions, so I guess we are left guessing, or waiting for another action of the questioner...
TheThirdMan
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-06-03T22:40:51.593Z
@ikegami: Well, that's why I earlier said *"I still find it hard to see that this would be what the questioner intended to ask"*, implying that there is an ever-so-slight possibility that you were reading a bit too much into it. If you look at the edit history, it's not that I haven't considered the possibility, just figured it was a long shot to assume that's the core of the question from what was there, seeing as it would've changed the nature of the question entirely - much like your edit possibly did. Again - it seems to me that only the questioner can provide any insight to that.
TheThirdMan
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-06-03T22:55:10.670Z
Let us [continue this discussion in chat](http://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/59839/discussion-between-thethirdman-and-ikegami).
TheThirdMan
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-06-03T14:57:51.867Z
2017-06-03T14:57:51.867Z
TheThirdMan
<p>Say you have a creature A that gives your creatures a +1/+1 counter, and a creature B you control with that counter on it. If that counter on B is removed, does A restore the counter on the following turn?</p>

<p>For example, <a class="mtg-autocard" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bMikaeus%2c%20the%20Unhallowed%5d">Mikaeus, the Unhallowed</a> (creature A) is on the battlefield (giving all non-humans +1/+1 and Undying), and <a class="mtg-autocard" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bNoosegraf%20Mob%5d">Noosegraf Mob</a> (creature B) enters the battlefield (with 5 +1/+1 counters) and gets the counter from Mikaeus. When a spell is played, a counter is removed from Noosegraf and I put a 2/2 zombie onto the battlefield. In my following turn, is the counter from Mikaeus put back onto Noosegraf Mob?</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-06-06T14:50:53.657Z
@ikegami I believe that's a complete answer; the question is being asked out of a confusion between the two, and is completely resolved by understanding the difference.
Samthere
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-06-06T14:57:39.580Z
@ikegami Yes, but the "returning counters" question is based on a case with a static +1/+1 effect rather than a single event that adds counters. By understanding that Mikaeus doesn't give counters, there's no longer a need to ask about returning the counter he provides.
Samthere
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-06-06T15:04:03.500Z
@ikegami But the question didn't ask about those (except with the modified title). The original question was "does the counter from mikaeus go back onto noosegraf"? Or in a general case "do the counters from a static +1/+1 effect get replaced after they're removed"? There's no indication of any confusion about the way you remove counters from a Noosegraf on its own.
Samthere
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-06-06T15:15:20.417Z
There's every indication that they think that a _specific_ counter is put back on, because that "counter" is created through a static effect. Under the misinterpretation, Mikaeus permanently says it "has a counter" even after that counter is removed. The question explicitly talks about the case where a counter is removed that it received from an anthem-type effect. If anthem-type effects _were_ counters, it would be entirely reasonable to ask if they return or persist through being removed. I believe that misunderstanding is the basis for the question.
Samthere
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-06-06T15:24:39.753Z
I'm confident in my interpretation of what the OP is asking. They're asking about whether a very particular counter is put back on the Mob. "does **that counter** come back **from the other creature**"? "_does **the counter from mikaeus** go back onto noosegraf_"? It's clear that the OP thinks Mikaeus might track and restore the counter it provides. However, we know that Mikaeus doesn't provide a counter at all.
Samthere
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-06-06T15:26:13.437Z
The linked question doesn't need to address the specific case because it addresses the misunderstanding. Once that's cleared up, there's no case in Magic where a creature gives a counter as a static, continuous effect.
Samthere
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-06-06T15:30:06.110Z
Let us [continue this discussion in chat](http://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/59997/discussion-between-samthere-and-ikegami).
Samthere
<magic-the-gathering>
Do effects that give +1/+1 counters restore those counters after they're removed?
levi maynard
# Do effects that give +1/+1 counters restore those counters after they're removed?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2017-06-03)

Say you have a creature A that gives your creatures a +1/+1 counter, and a creature B you control with that counter on it. If that counter on B is removed, does A restore the counter on the following turn?

For example, [Mikaeus, the Unhallowed](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bMikaeus%2c%20the%20Unhallowed%5d) (creature A) is on the battlefield (giving all non-humans +1/+1 and Undying), and [Noosegraf Mob](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bNoosegraf%20Mob%5d) (creature B) enters the battlefield (with 5 +1/+1 counters) and gets the counter from Mikaeus. When a spell is played, a counter is removed from Noosegraf and I put a 2/2 zombie onto the battlefield. In my following turn, is the counter from Mikaeus put back onto Noosegraf Mob?

**Tags:** magic-the-gathering

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: @username_2 I believe that's a complete answer; the question is being asked out of a confusion between the two, and is completely resolved by understanding the difference.  
> **username_1**: @username_2 Yes, but the "returning counters" question is based on a case with a static +1/+1 effect rather than a single event that adds counters. By understanding that Mikaeus doesn't give counters, there's no longer a need to ask about returning the counter he provides.  
> **username_1**: @username_2 But the question didn't ask about those (except with the modified title). The original question was "does the counter from mikaeus go back onto noosegraf"? Or in a general case "do the counters from a static +1/+1 effect get replaced after they're removed"? There's no indication of any confusion about the way you remove counters from a Noosegraf on its own.  
> **username_1**: There's every indication that they think that a _specific_ counter is put back on, because that "counter" is created through a static effect. Under the misinterpretation, Mikaeus permanently says it "has a counter" even after that counter is removed. The question explicitly talks about the case where a counter is removed that it received from an anthem-type effect. If anthem-type effects _were_ counters, it would be entirely reasonable to ask if they return or persist through being removed. I believe that misunderstanding is the basis for the question.  
> **username_1**: I'm confident in my interpretation of what the OP is asking. They're asking about whether a very particular counter is put back on the Mob. "does **that counter** come back **from the other creature**"? "_does **the counter from mikaeus** go back onto noosegraf_"? It's clear that the OP thinks Mikaeus might track and restore the counter it provides. However, we know that Mikaeus doesn't provide a counter at all.  
> **username_1**: The linked question doesn't need to address the specific case because it addresses the misunderstanding. Once that's cleared up, there's no case in Magic where a creature gives a counter as a static, continuous effect.  
> **username_1**: Let us [continue this discussion in chat](http://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/59997/discussion-between-username_1-and-username_2).  

---

## 2 answers

### Answer by username_2 on 2017-06-03. Score: 2

First of all, Mikaeus doesn't grant any counters. This is covered by [Are +1/+1 counters different from +1/+1 effects?](https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/q/18214/2880)

So you start with a 6/6 Mob with undying and 5 +1/+1 counters.

When a player casts a spell, the Mob will lose a counter, and you will gain a 3/3 zombie with undying. The counter is not placed on the zombie; it simply ceases to exist, so the physical object representing it is removed from the game.

Nothing causes the Mob to gain tokens when a zombie dies. This means you can create at most 5 zombies. But thanks to Mikaeus, the Mob won't be destroyed when it loses all of its counters (since it'll still be 1/1).


---

### Answer by username_3 on 2017-06-03. Score: 1

It's important to note the difference between +1/+1 as a static buff, and +1/+1 counters - [Mikaeus, the Unhallowed](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bMikaeus%2c%20the%20Unhallowed%5d) provides a static buff (which isn't represented by a counter, but instead "just there"), whereas [Noosegraf Mob](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bNoosegraf%20Mob%5d) actually has counters placed on it.

The +1/+1 that [Mikaeus, the Unhallowed](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bMikaeus%2c%20the%20Unhallowed%5d) provides can't be removed by [Noosegraf Mob](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bNoosegraf%20Mob%5d)'s ability, and neither will you get a Zombie from it. It will, however, allow [Noosegraf Mob](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bNoosegraf%20Mob%5d) to survive on the battlefield as a 1/1 creature after all of it's counters have been removed.

> **Comments:**
> **username_3**: @username_2: Before the title change, there was no reason to assume that there was any confusion about that, and I still find it hard to see that this would be what the questioner intended to ask.  
> **username_3**: @username_2: The way they asked that implies a connection to Mikaeus's ability, the way I understand it, and as I said, I didn't see any reason to assume anything in this question *isn't* about Mikaeus before the title change. That said, the original question was rather inconclusive in a few ways, and you may well be right with your conclusions, so I guess we are left guessing, or waiting for another action of the questioner...  
> **username_3**: @username_2: Well, that's why I earlier said *"I still find it hard to see that this would be what the questioner intended to ask"*, implying that there is an ever-so-slight possibility that you were reading a bit too much into it. If you look at the edit history, it's not that I haven't considered the possibility, just figured it was a long shot to assume that's the core of the question from what was there, seeing as it would've changed the nature of the question entirely - much like your edit possibly did. Again - it seems to me that only the questioner can provide any insight to that.  
> **username_3**: Let us [continue this discussion in chat](http://chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/59839/discussion-between-username_3-and-username_2).  

---

