<p>The guidance from the updated 2005 Europe rules almost assuredly applies. You MAY take losses on allied units even when on the attack, and furthermore, MUST take them if there are not enough attacking units to take all the losses. Allied subs may NOT submerge as they never rolled dice. Quote below:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>When German subs are attacked in a zone that contains Allied naval units of more than one nationality, Allied losses can be taken from any of those Allied vessels. If the defending German subs score more hits than the attacking player has ships, must the excess hits be taken from the Allied ships that are standing by? For example, a sea zone is occupied by three German subs and two British transports. The US player brings in two destroyers and attacks the subs. The German player rolls his defensive dice and scores three hits! Must the Allies lose three ships, even though the Americans attacked with only two?
  A guiding principle throughout the rules is that if there is a way to apportion hits so they result in losses, the losses must be taken. In this case, the Allies must lose three ships; whether those are two destroyers and a transport or two transports and a destroyer is up to the Allied players.</p>
  
  <p>In the previous example, what if the British transports had been subs instead? Could they submerge to avoid becoming casualties?
  The only time subs can submerge is immediately before rolling dice, whether attacking or defending. In this example, the British subs can't submerge because they don't get to roll dice (they're not defenders -- Germany is defending, the US is attacking, and the British are just innocent bystanders caught in the crossfire).</p>
</blockquote>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-04-21T21:28:28.153Z
Very interesting! Are there any other combat rules from the 2005 Europe version that may conflict with the 2004 version and change the balance of this rule? I haven't played Europe or read through the Europe rules, myself.
Drew Spickes
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-04-22T05:27:52.137Z
This was the earliest (which is why I picked it) that I can find that this question is directly answered, though it has been reiterated as intentional many times thereafter. I don't think it is meant to be a conflict with any previous rules rather than a case never explicitly defined. It is certainly possible, as I only have access to a number of rules FAQs, that it is in contradiction though.
Micah Manary
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-04-20T20:16:34.383Z
2015-04-20T20:16:34.383Z
Micah Manary
<p>I'm playing the 2004 Avalon Hill Revised rules.</p>

<p>Scenario: It is the UK player's turn. They use their Atlantic fleet (without any destroyers) to attack the German Atlantic fleet. Most of the German fleet is destroyed except for two submarines which choose to submerge. At the end of the UK player's non-combat move, the German submarines resurface and remain in the same sea zone as the UK fleet.</p>

<p>Fast-forward to the USA player's turn. They want to use their Atlantic fleet to attack the remaining German submarines. These submarines are still parked in the same sea zone as the UK fleet.</p>

<p>Question: If the USA player attacks the German submarines in the same sea zone as the UK fleet, does the UK fleet participate in the attack?</p>

<p>Commentary: I'm leaning towards no because of the "Defend together. Attack separately." principle. However, I can't find where this scenario is clarified in the rules.</p>

<axis-and-allies>
A&A Sea Zone Attack Rule Clarification
Drew Spickes
# A&A Sea Zone Attack Rule Clarification

(Asked by: username_0 on 2015-04-07)

I'm playing the 2004 Avalon Hill Revised rules.

Scenario: It is the UK player's turn. They use their Atlantic fleet (without any destroyers) to attack the German Atlantic fleet. Most of the German fleet is destroyed except for two submarines which choose to submerge. At the end of the UK player's non-combat move, the German submarines resurface and remain in the same sea zone as the UK fleet.

Fast-forward to the USA player's turn. They want to use their Atlantic fleet to attack the remaining German submarines. These submarines are still parked in the same sea zone as the UK fleet.

Question: If the USA player attacks the German submarines in the same sea zone as the UK fleet, does the UK fleet participate in the attack?

Commentary: I'm leaning towards no because of the "Defend together. Attack separately." principle. However, I can't find where this scenario is clarified in the rules.

**Tags:** axis-and-allies


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## 1 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2015-04-20. Score: 2 | Accepted answer

The guidance from the updated 2005 Europe rules almost assuredly applies. You MAY take losses on allied units even when on the attack, and furthermore, MUST take them if there are not enough attacking units to take all the losses. Allied subs may NOT submerge as they never rolled dice. Quote below:

> When German subs are attacked in a zone that contains Allied naval units of more than one nationality, Allied losses can be taken from any of those Allied vessels. If the defending German subs score more hits than the attacking player has ships, must the excess hits be taken from the Allied ships that are standing by? For example, a sea zone is occupied by three German subs and two British transports. The US player brings in two destroyers and attacks the subs. The German player rolls his defensive dice and scores three hits! Must the Allies lose three ships, even though the Americans attacked with only two?
> A guiding principle throughout the rules is that if there is a way to apportion hits so they result in losses, the losses must be taken. In this case, the Allies must lose three ships; whether those are two destroyers and a transport or two transports and a destroyer is up to the Allied players.
>
> In the previous example, what if the British transports had been subs instead? Could they submerge to avoid becoming casualties?
> The only time subs can submerge is immediately before rolling dice, whether attacking or defending. In this example, the British subs can't submerge because they don't get to roll dice (they're not defenders -- Germany is defending, the US is attacking, and the British are just innocent bystanders caught in the crossfire).

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Very interesting! Are there any other combat rules from the 2005 Europe version that may conflict with the 2004 version and change the balance of this rule? I haven't played Europe or read through the Europe rules, myself.  
> **username_1**: This was the earliest (which is why I picked it) that I can find that this question is directly answered, though it has been reiterated as intentional many times thereafter. I don't think it is meant to be a conflict with any previous rules rather than a case never explicitly defined. It is certainly possible, as I only have access to a number of rules FAQs, that it is in contradiction though.  

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