Answers.Body: <p>I admittedly don't have the 46x46 = 2116(!) 1x1 clips to properly build this, but I was able to build a small sample to replicate the problem.</p>
  
  <p>Because this construction technique eliminates the natural tiny gap between elements, you can't easily reinforce it just by attaching plates and bricks to the underside. This construction is essentially "out of system". When you attach bricks underneath, you are forcing an error between this and standard system construction. This is why you see the "strong v" when bracing this with plates or bricks underneath.</p>
  
  <p>One way that you might be able to brace it is by using a continuous offset of some sort. Here's an example:
  <a href="https://i.sstatic.net/pkfxK.jpg" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/pkfxK.jpg" alt="continuous offset bracing"></a></p>
  
  <p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/1XsWn.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/1XsWn.png" alt="continuous offset bracing"></a></p>
  
  <p>You could also try building it without any reinforcement and then try to flatten it out (e.g. you could leave it under a pile of books overnight). I'm honestly not sure if this is likely to work, and it may permanently deform your bricks if it does, so I can't strongly recommend it. Realistically, this technique is already putting these parts under a lot of stress and may permanently harm them anyway.</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2018-03-23T03:00:36.533Z
Answers.Text: I agree it is definitely stressing them.  I have a large metal bowl, and I considered putting the lake on the upside down bowl and weighting the edges a little.  I don't think it will work, however, as I have a few pieces that are falling out all the time and I think it is because their grips are a little looser; I will need to verify that.  If I loosen the hole batch, I think the whole thing will just fall apart.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Thomas
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2018-03-23T03:02:48.947Z
Answers.Text: There seems to be a fundamental flaw here.  When I line up a dozen 1x1 clips, 1x1 tiles, and 1x1 plates, it appears that the clips are a little wider than the others, the plates next and the tiles least.  Thus, straightening the warp demands the creation of gaps between the tiles, again pointing to a problem if I try to stretch the grips out with weight.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Thomas
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2018-03-23T03:03:16.743Z
Answers.Text: I will play with your technic idea and let you know what I find.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Thomas
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2018-03-23T11:57:58.277Z
Answers.Text: That certainly seems to be the core of the issue. If you wanted to turn to the dark side, you might be able to fix it by sanding down the 1x1 clips. :)
Answers.UserDisplayName: jncraton
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2018-03-23T01:52:44.617Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2018-03-23T01:52:44.617Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: jncraton
Answers.Body: <p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/QjyJJ.jpg" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/QjyJJ.jpg" alt="This image of the same model"></a></p>
  
  <p>This image of the same model shows that the whole set sits on a frame of bricks. In the inside, you could place bricks underneath wherever necessary to attach the water plates (not only 1x... but maybe 2x10, or several 2x4 in a row). They are invisible, so color and type don't matter. If this row of bricks reaches from one side of the frame to the other, it can shift to allow the longitudinal waves but it cannot curl up transversal(ly?).</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2018-03-22T16:21:00.617Z
Answers.Text: I just tried that out, just a preliminary attempt, using two 2x10 bricks running transversely.  Believe it or not, it causes the curl to concentrate itself at the joint, creating a strong "V" between the two bricks with a full 1-2 mm gap.  Thus, this method would require a lot of large bricks.  I will have to look at it more to see if I can afford the extreme depth. My project is 16' x 6.5' (5 m x 2 m)!  It sits on a masonite board, so any depth requires special work in creating a hole and deepening the masonite board in that area (as mentioned, the bean-shaped lake is 46x46 pegs).
Answers.UserDisplayName: Thomas
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2018-03-22T11:48:12.567Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2018-03-22T11:48:12.567Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: Metalbeard
Answers.Body: <p>To help share ideas, in case somebody else runs into this someday, I will post another idea I have been playing with.  I don't know which solution I will go with yet, but I add this idea to help others.</p>
  
  <p>The idea is basically to create some fault lines through the lake where I can hinge the water and avoid the accummulation of stress.  I have started playing with it on one end.</p>
  
  <p>Basically, I remove all of the 1x1 clips across the entire width of the lake, but using some pattern that allows a somewhat natural look to remain.</p>
  
  <p>Next, I put a collection of 1x plates beneath that area, so that the colors don't look too bad.</p>
  
  <p>Finally, at my high points in the wave, I use some 1x hinge plates to connect the two pieces.  Thus we keep a single top surface, but cause the accummulative warp to remain minimal.</p>
  
  <p>I will try to get a picture of the underside and top to help people see what I am doing.</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2018-03-23T03:10:37.343Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2018-03-23T03:10:37.343Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: Thomas
Body: <p>I was trying to imitate the cool water technique of Legopard on <a href="http://www.moc-pages.com/moc.php/376246" rel="nofollow noreferrer">MOCpages</a>.</p>
  <p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/3O8Do.jpg" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/3O8Do.jpg" alt="wavy_water" /></a></p>
  <p>Sadly, I found that when I did it on a large scale (about 46x46 pegs), the water tends to warp upward in the transverse direction, curling the edges.  I cannot get my lake to sit flat.  I get the standing wave in the longitudinal direction, as shown in the picture, but the entire sheet warps in the transverse direction.</p>
  <p>I first thought that perhaps mold type played a role, but building it in either clip type gave the same results.</p>
  <p>Next, I tried putting in longer 1x plates below to hold the longitudinal wave as shown in the picture, while hopefully straightening the transverse curl, but the problem is that the 1x1 clips hold the water/tiles too tight in the transverse direction, thus pulling the pieces too close together, so the plates end up making the warp worse as they push the bases apart further (due to the normal tolerance or piece spacing).</p>
  <p>I would love any ideas people can offer.  I am not sure how Legopard got his to sit so flat.  I am finding that even 6 tiles wide gets a noticeable warp and his picture is many times that.</p>
  
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2018-03-21T20:43:30.590Z
Comments.Text: Have you tried putting anything longer underneath? Maybe a 1x10 plate for example.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Craig
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2018-03-21T21:24:51.440Z
Comments.Text: Yes, as described above, putting in a transverse plate was great for the standing wave in the longitudinal direction, but it made the transverse curl worse as it forced the 1x1 clips underneath even further apart.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Thomas
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2018-03-21T21:48:58.817Z
Comments.Text: ah, I didn't understand the "putting in 1x plates below" was talking about long plates, I read that as just 1x1. Could you edit the question so it's clear.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Craig
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2018-03-23T01:54:14.287Z
Comments.Text: Fantastic question! Welcome to Bricks!
Comments.UserDisplayName: jncraton
Tags: <building><water>
Title: Problem with "warping" of LEGO water
UserDisplayName: Thomas
ThreadText: # Problem with "warping" of LEGO water
  
  (Asked by: username_0 on 2018-03-21)
  
  I was trying to imitate the cool water technique of Legopard on [MOCpages](http://www.moc-pages.com/moc.php/376246).
  
  [![wavy_water](https://i.sstatic.net/3O8Do.jpg)](https://i.sstatic.net/3O8Do.jpg)
  
  Sadly, I found that when I did it on a large scale (about 46x46 pegs), the water tends to warp upward in the transverse direction, curling the edges. I cannot get my lake to sit flat. I get the standing wave in the longitudinal direction, as shown in the picture, but the entire sheet warps in the transverse direction.
  
  I first thought that perhaps mold type played a role, but building it in either clip type gave the same results.
  
  Next, I tried putting in longer 1x plates below to hold the longitudinal wave as shown in the picture, while hopefully straightening the transverse curl, but the problem is that the 1x1 clips hold the water/tiles too tight in the transverse direction, thus pulling the pieces too close together, so the plates end up making the warp worse as they push the bases apart further (due to the normal tolerance or piece spacing).
  
  I would love any ideas people can offer. I am not sure how Legopard got his to sit so flat. I am finding that even 6 tiles wide gets a noticeable warp and his picture is many times that.
  
  **Tags:** building, water
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_1**: Have you tried putting anything longer underneath? Maybe a 1x10 plate for example.  
  > **username_0**: Yes, as described above, putting in a transverse plate was great for the standing wave in the longitudinal direction, but it made the transverse curl worse as it forced the 1x1 clips underneath even further apart.  
  > **username_1**: ah, I didn't understand the "putting in 1x plates below" was talking about long plates, I read that as just 1x1. Could you edit the question so it's clear.  
  > **username_2**: Fantastic question! Welcome to Bricks!  
  
  ---
  
  ## 3 answers
  
  ### Answer by username_2 on 2018-03-23. Score: 4
  
  I admittedly don't have the 46x46 = 2116(!) 1x1 clips to properly build this, but I was able to build a small sample to replicate the problem.
  
  Because this construction technique eliminates the natural tiny gap between elements, you can't easily reinforce it just by attaching plates and bricks to the underside. This construction is essentially "out of system". When you attach bricks underneath, you are forcing an error between this and standard system construction. This is why you see the "strong v" when bracing this with plates or bricks underneath.
  
  One way that you might be able to brace it is by using a continuous offset of some sort. Here's an example:
  [![continuous offset bracing](https://i.sstatic.net/pkfxK.jpg)](https://i.sstatic.net/pkfxK.jpg)
  
  [![continuous offset bracing](https://i.sstatic.net/1XsWn.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/1XsWn.png)
  
  You could also try building it without any reinforcement and then try to flatten it out (e.g. you could leave it under a pile of books overnight). I'm honestly not sure if this is likely to work, and it may permanently deform your bricks if it does, so I can't strongly recommend it. Realistically, this technique is already putting these parts under a lot of stress and may permanently harm them anyway.
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_0**: I agree it is definitely stressing them.  I have a large metal bowl, and I considered putting the lake on the upside down bowl and weighting the edges a little.  I don't think it will work, however, as I have a few pieces that are falling out all the time and I think it is because their grips are a little looser; I will need to verify that.  If I loosen the hole batch, I think the whole thing will just fall apart.  
  > **username_0**: There seems to be a fundamental flaw here.  When I line up a dozen 1x1 clips, 1x1 tiles, and 1x1 plates, it appears that the clips are a little wider than the others, the plates next and the tiles least.  Thus, straightening the warp demands the creation of gaps between the tiles, again pointing to a problem if I try to stretch the grips out with weight.  
  > **username_0**: I will play with your technic idea and let you know what I find.  
  > **username_2**: That certainly seems to be the core of the issue. If you wanted to turn to the dark side, you might be able to fix it by sanding down the 1x1 clips. :)  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_3 on 2018-03-22. Score: 4
  
  [![This image of the same model](https://i.sstatic.net/QjyJJ.jpg)](https://i.sstatic.net/QjyJJ.jpg)
  
  This image of the same model shows that the whole set sits on a frame of bricks. In the inside, you could place bricks underneath wherever necessary to attach the water plates (not only 1x... but maybe 2x10, or several 2x4 in a row). They are invisible, so color and type don't matter. If this row of bricks reaches from one side of the frame to the other, it can shift to allow the longitudinal waves but it cannot curl up transversal(ly?).
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_0**: I just tried that out, just a preliminary attempt, using two 2x10 bricks running transversely.  Believe it or not, it causes the curl to concentrate itself at the joint, creating a strong "V" between the two bricks with a full 1-2 mm gap.  Thus, this method would require a lot of large bricks.  I will have to look at it more to see if I can afford the extreme depth. My project is 16' x 6.5' (5 m x 2 m)!  It sits on a masonite board, so any depth requires special work in creating a hole and deepening the masonite board in that area (as mentioned, the bean-shaped lake is 46x46 pegs).  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_0 on 2018-03-23. Score: 0
  
  To help share ideas, in case somebody else runs into this someday, I will post another idea I have been playing with. I don't know which solution I will go with yet, but I add this idea to help others.
  
  The idea is basically to create some fault lines through the lake where I can hinge the water and avoid the accummulation of stress. I have started playing with it on one end.
  
  Basically, I remove all of the 1x1 clips across the entire width of the lake, but using some pattern that allows a somewhat natural look to remain.
  
  Next, I put a collection of 1x plates beneath that area, so that the colors don't look too bad.
  
  Finally, at my high points in the wave, I use some 1x hinge plates to connect the two pieces. Thus we keep a single top surface, but cause the accummulative warp to remain minimal.
  
  I will try to get a picture of the underside and top to help people see what I am doing.
  
  
  ---
  
  