Answers.Body: <p>You can also go with:</p>
  <pre><code>[FEN &quot;r2q1rk1/p3b1p1/2Q1p2p/2npp3/4P3/2PPBN1P/PP3PP1/R3R1K1 b - - 0 1&quot;]
  
  1... Rc8 2. Qb5 a6 3. Qb4 Nd3!
  </code></pre>
  <p>Which, while allowing the queen to escape, does still result in a significant material gain (one pawn plus one knight/rook swap).</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2021-01-04T17:14:21.247Z
Answers.Text: Did you mean Nd3 instead of Rd3?  I don't see how either rook gets there from your position, but the knight could.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Darrel Hoffman
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2021-01-04T17:29:27.367Z
Answers.Text: Yes, but you get a pawn plus a knight/rook swap out of it, which is almost the same material gain.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Kaz
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2021-01-04T20:38:38.040Z
Answers.Text: White can also escape to b3, which allows for even more escape routes, so this isn't a solution.
Answers.UserDisplayName: computercarguy
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2021-01-04T16:58:31.233Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2021-01-05T16:35:15.487Z
Answers.LastEditDate: 2021-01-05T16:35:15.487Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: Kaz
Answers.Body: <p>A more dangerous way to handle this is for black to move Qd7, instead of Rc8, which also prevents white from escaping. Of course, this poses an opportunity to trade queens, but any move by white allows the queen to be taken.</p>
  <pre><code>[FEN &quot;r2q1rk1/p3b1p1/2Q1p2p/2npp3/4P3/2PPBN1P/PP3PP1/R3R1K1 b - - 0 1&quot;]
  
  1... Rc8 (1... Qd7 Qe6 Nxe6 (2... Qxe6)) (1... Qd7 Qd6 Bxd6 (2... Qxd6)) (1... Qd7 Qb6 axb6) (1... Qd7 Qa6 Nxa6) (1... Qd7 Qd5 exd5 (2... Qxd5)) (1... Qd7 Qc5 Bxc5) (1... Qd7 Qb5 Qxb5) (1... Qd7 Qa4 Qxa4 (2... Nxa4)) (1... Qd7 Qd7 Nxd7) (1... Qd7 Qc7 Qxc7) (1... Qd7 Qb7 Qxb7 (2... Nxb7)) (1... Qd7 Qc8 Qxc8 (2... Rxc8)) (1... Qd7 Qa8 Rxa8) (1... Qd7 Bxc5 {And last, but not least, white makes literally any other move} Qxc6) (1... Qd7 Nxe5 {White can try to force a trade, but the queen can still be captured} Qxc6)
  </code></pre>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2021-01-04T18:21:13.483Z
Answers.Text: You can [edit] another Answer to see what they wrote!
Answers.UserDisplayName: ti7
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2021-01-04T18:31:20.130Z
Answers.Text: @ti7, I tried that, but it didn't show the board in the preview, so I wasn't sure if it would actually work. I also don't know how to show all the options, and I've read enough on this Stack to know it's possible. Not to mention that I never learned the standard chess notation to make use of the board. Is there a site or a Question that can help with creating a board?
Answers.UserDisplayName: computercarguy
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2021-01-04T18:56:24.490Z
Answers.Text: Surely allowing White to trade queens isn't "more dangerous" than winning a queen for a rook. I don't understand the point of this answer. Black playing Qd7 just squanders the advantage.
Answers.UserDisplayName: John Coleman
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2021-01-04T19:02:48.113Z
Answers.Text: @JohnColeman, you said it yourself, that possibly giving up a queen vs a rook isn't as advantageous. In many competitions, if you lose your queen, you might as well resign, but not if you trade queens. That's why it's more dangerous. And the point of this Answer is the white queen lost for more options than just moving a rook, which is what both other Answers show.
Answers.UserDisplayName: computercarguy
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2021-01-04T19:06:05.733Z
Answers.Text: But a traded queen is not a *lost* queen. White's queen isn't lost after Qd7 -- it is saved.
Answers.UserDisplayName: John Coleman
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2021-01-04T19:13:32.820Z
Answers.Text: @JohnColeman, I don't follow that logic. Maybe I just don't know the terminology, but to me a queen removed from the board is lost. And I really don't see how it's "saved".
Answers.UserDisplayName: computercarguy
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2021-01-04T19:19:31.177Z
Answers.Text: If the queen is traded it is removed from the board, but you don't consider that as a "loss" of a queen. To lose a queen is to have it removed from the board without sufficient compensation. If you are seriously recommending Qd7, you are recommending a blunder. The accepted answer shows how to trap the queen. You are showing how to allow that trapped queen to be traded (which saves it from being a lost queen). After ...Qd7, QxQ, it would be *White* who has the better position.
Answers.UserDisplayName: John Coleman
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2021-01-04T19:26:24.090Z
Answers.Text: @JohnColeman, except that the white queen could then be taken by the rook. I never said anything about losing position in the rest of the board being good or bad. And I never said this was "the best" option, just that it was **an** option. I considered this to be a chess puzzle, rather than a straight game.
Answers.UserDisplayName: computercarguy
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2021-01-04T19:45:47.010Z
Answers.Text: @computercarguy I'm a bit lost. So  black plays rook to c8, then what do you recommend for white? (not using notation is fine, but please mention the squre names a1...h8 to help, you can see them on the image on the question)
Answers.UserDisplayName: Thomas
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2021-01-04T20:56:36.610Z
Answers.Text: @Thomas, I'm taking an alternate route to show how the queen would be lost even if black didn't move the rook to c8. The software found one possible solution that would cause the white queen to be captured, I found an alternate option. With Qd7, no matter where white moves their queen, it can be taken.
Answers.UserDisplayName: computercarguy
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2021-01-05T01:19:12.450Z
Answers.Text: @computercarguy Instructions for the board are at https://chess.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/179/how-do-i-add-a-replayer-to-my-post although you do need to know algebraic notation if you want to put moves in.
Answers.UserDisplayName: D M
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2021-01-05T19:16:18.530Z
Answers.Text: @Thomas, I'm not sure if you saw, but I updated my answer with a board, playing through "all" the possibilities. I didn't continue the play to an endgame, though. Just like the other Answers, black doesn't *have* to take the white queen, but that option is available for **every** white move on black's next move, which isn't true for the Rc8 move. Again, though, I'm not saying this is "the best" option, I'm saying this is an *alternative* option.
Answers.UserDisplayName: computercarguy
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2021-01-04T18:02:33.557Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2021-01-05T19:28:15.060Z
Answers.LastEditDate: 2021-01-05T19:28:15.060Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: computercarguy
Body: <p>In this game, white just moved the queen from b7 to c6, and the computer marks this as a &quot;critical blunder&quot; (and suggests that the bishop should take the knight). In this position it considers the queen lost, but it doesn't say much how. It says black should move their rook to c8, but then it seems to me the queen can go to b5, and from there on it's hard to take it.</p>
  <p>The black rook can then move to b8 and the queen can go back to c6. If the rook doesn't move, it seems to me the queen can escape: if the white queen moves then it becomes a queen trade, and if the black knight moves then the queen can play a4 and then escape to c2 (for instance).</p>
  <p>How can the black take the white queen in this configuration? (black to move)</p>
  <p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/RlXWB.png" rel="noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/RlXWB.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>
  
Tags: <problems>
Title: Why is the queen considered lost?
ThreadText: # Why is the queen considered lost?
  
  (Asked by: username_0 on 2021-01-04)
  
  In this game, white just moved the queen from b7 to c6, and the computer marks this as a "critical blunder" (and suggests that the bishop should take the knight). In this position it considers the queen lost, but it doesn't say much how. It says black should move their rook to c8, but then it seems to me the queen can go to b5, and from there on it's hard to take it.
  
  The black rook can then move to b8 and the queen can go back to c6. If the rook doesn't move, it seems to me the queen can escape: if the white queen moves then it becomes a queen trade, and if the black knight moves then the queen can play a4 and then escape to c2 (for instance).
  
  How can the black take the white queen in this configuration? (black to move)
  
  [![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/RlXWB.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/RlXWB.png)
  
  **Tags:** problems
  
  
  ---
  
  ## 2 answers
  
  ### Answer by username_1 on 2021-01-04. Score: 2
  
  You can also go with:
  [FEN "r2q1rk1/p3b1p1/2Q1p2p/2npp3/4P3/2PPBN1P/PP3PP1/R3R1K1 b - - 0 1"]
  
  1... Rc8 2. Qb5 a6 3. Qb4 Nd3!
  
  Which, while allowing the queen to escape, does still result in a significant material gain (one pawn plus one knight/rook swap).
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_2**: Did you mean Nd3 instead of Rd3?  I don't see how either rook gets there from your position, but the knight could.  
  > **username_1**: Yes, but you get a pawn plus a knight/rook swap out of it, which is almost the same material gain.  
  > **username_3**: White can also escape to b3, which allows for even more escape routes, so this isn't a solution.  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_3 on 2021-01-04. Score: -1
  
  A more dangerous way to handle this is for black to move Qd7, instead of Rc8, which also prevents white from escaping. Of course, this poses an opportunity to trade queens, but any move by white allows the queen to be taken.
  [FEN "r2q1rk1/p3b1p1/2Q1p2p/2npp3/4P3/2PPBN1P/PP3PP1/R3R1K1 b - - 0 1"]
  
  1... Rc8 (1... Qd7 Qe6 Nxe6 (2... Qxe6)) (1... Qd7 Qd6 Bxd6 (2... Qxd6)) (1... Qd7 Qb6 axb6) (1... Qd7 Qa6 Nxa6) (1... Qd7 Qd5 exd5 (2... Qxd5)) (1... Qd7 Qc5 Bxc5) (1... Qd7 Qb5 Qxb5) (1... Qd7 Qa4 Qxa4 (2... Nxa4)) (1... Qd7 Qd7 Nxd7) (1... Qd7 Qc7 Qxc7) (1... Qd7 Qb7 Qxb7 (2... Nxb7)) (1... Qd7 Qc8 Qxc8 (2... Rxc8)) (1... Qd7 Qa8 Rxa8) (1... Qd7 Bxc5 {And last, but not least, white makes literally any other move} Qxc6) (1... Qd7 Nxe5 {White can try to force a trade, but the queen can still be captured} Qxc6)
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_4**: You can [edit] another Answer to see what they wrote!  
  > **username_3**: @username_4, I tried that, but it didn't show the board in the preview, so I wasn't sure if it would actually work. I also don't know how to show all the options, and I've read enough on this Stack to know it's possible. Not to mention that I never learned the standard chess notation to make use of the board. Is there a site or a Question that can help with creating a board?  
  > **username_5**: Surely allowing White to trade queens isn't "more dangerous" than winning a queen for a rook. I don't understand the point of this answer. Black playing Qd7 just squanders the advantage.  
  > **username_3**: @JohnColeman, you said it yourself, that possibly giving up a queen vs a rook isn't as advantageous. In many competitions, if you lose your queen, you might as well resign, but not if you trade queens. That's why it's more dangerous. And the point of this Answer is the white queen lost for more options than just moving a rook, which is what both other Answers show.  
  > **username_5**: But a traded queen is not a *lost* queen. White's queen isn't lost after Qd7 -- it is saved.  
  > **username_3**: @JohnColeman, I don't follow that logic. Maybe I just don't know the terminology, but to me a queen removed from the board is lost. And I really don't see how it's "saved".  
  > **username_5**: If the queen is traded it is removed from the board, but you don't consider that as a "loss" of a queen. To lose a queen is to have it removed from the board without sufficient compensation. If you are seriously recommending Qd7, you are recommending a blunder. The accepted answer shows how to trap the queen. You are showing how to allow that trapped queen to be traded (which saves it from being a lost queen). After ...Qd7, QxQ, it would be *White* who has the better position.  
  > **username_3**: @JohnColeman, except that the white queen could then be taken by the rook. I never said anything about losing position in the rest of the board being good or bad. And I never said this was "the best" option, just that it was **an** option. I considered this to be a chess puzzle, rather than a straight game.  
  > **username_0**: @username_3 I'm a bit lost. So  black plays rook to c8, then what do you recommend for white? (not using notation is fine, but please mention the squre names a1...h8 to help, you can see them on the image on the question)  
  > **username_3**: @username_0, I'm taking an alternate route to show how the queen would be lost even if black didn't move the rook to c8. The software found one possible solution that would cause the white queen to be captured, I found an alternate option. With Qd7, no matter where white moves their queen, it can be taken.  
  > **username_6**: @username_3 Instructions for the board are at https://chess.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/179/how-do-i-add-a-replayer-to-my-post although you do need to know algebraic notation if you want to put moves in.  
  > **username_3**: @username_0, I'm not sure if you saw, but I updated my answer with a board, playing through "all" the possibilities. I didn't continue the play to an endgame, though. Just like the other Answers, black doesn't *have* to take the white queen, but that option is available for **every** white move on black's next move, which isn't true for the Rc8 move. Again, though, I'm not saying this is "the best" option, I'm saying this is an *alternative* option.  
  
  ---
  
  