Answers.Body: <p>If your assumption is:</p>
  
  <blockquote>
    <p>If a position is a draw and I add new pieces, then the position is still a draw.</p>
  </blockquote>
  
  <p>Then this is certainly false. As a proof, you may have a look at the position:</p>
  
  <pre><code>      [FEN "r4b1k/2R3np/3p2p1/3Qp1N1/qrb1P2P/P5N1/1B4P1/K1R5 w - - 10 35"]
        [Title "White to move and draw"]
  </code></pre>
  
  <p>Which is a draw by perpetual check. Notice how black is threatening mate and attacking white's queen at the same time. Now, add a white pawn on <code>e3</code>, a white rook on <code>e2</code>, a black pawn on <code>e6</code> and a black rook on <code>e7</code>:</p>
  
  <pre><code>      [FEN "r4b1k/2R1r1np/3pp1p1/3Qp1N1/qrb1P2P/P3P1N1/1B2R1P1/K1R5 w - - 10 35"]
        [Title "White to move and fail to draw"]
  </code></pre>
  
  <p>Which is no longer a draw, since the added pawn blocks the discovered check and the rook controls the <code>f7</code> square, allowing black to either checkmate white or to win enough material to convert without problems. Note that this also works without adding the extra pawn.</p>
  
  <p>A more tranquil position that also proves the assumption wrong is the next one:</p>
  
  <pre><code>      [FEN "k7/1p6/pP6/P2K4/8/8/5B2/8 w - - 0 1"]
        [Title "An effortless draw"]
  </code></pre>
  
  <p>Despite being a piece down, black has achieved a drawn position. By simply moving the king back and forth from <code>a8</code> to <code>b8</code> black has secured the half point. Note how the position is still a draw without the extra bishop for white. Now, add a white pawn on <code>h2</code> and a black pawn on <code>h7</code>.</p>
  
  <pre><code>      [FEN "k7/1p5p/pP6/P2K4/8/8/5B1P/8 w - - 0 1"]
        [Title "An effortless win"]
  </code></pre>
  
  <p>The position is no longer a draw since white can chase off that extra pawn and queen his. If black leaves the protection of his pawns, white can choose to either win by the <em>fox in the chicken coop</em> principle or by securing a safe route to <code>h8</code> to his pawn. Note that the position arising from the one without the extra bishop is also a win for white.</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2014-10-20T08:42:33.377Z
Answers.Text: The latter position still seems to be a draw, what's preventing 1.Nf7+ Kg8 2.Nh6+ Kh8 3.Nf7+ etc? You can remove all white's pieces except the knight, king, and pawn a3 and it's still a draw.
Answers.UserDisplayName: RemcoGerlich
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2014-10-20T08:51:43.333Z
Answers.Text: Very true, I'll add a rook on `e2` and `e7` to avoid this. Instead of taking a simple composition, I took a real position, which might not have been the best choice.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Pablo S. Ocal
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2014-10-20T10:30:16.790Z
Answers.Text: This is a "Fire on Board" type of position. What about a quiet one, such as the starting position? No mate or draw there.
Answers.UserDisplayName: MikhailTal
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2014-10-20T11:31:24.597Z
Answers.Text: @MikhailTal my post has been edited to add another example.
Answers.UserDisplayName: Pablo S. Ocal
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2014-10-20T13:22:04.103Z
Answers.Text: @pablo You can also put two queens looking at f7/f2. I am saying in a more concrete sense.
Answers.UserDisplayName: MikhailTal
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2014-10-20T18:06:40.437Z
Answers.Text: I'm afraid I don't understand you. What do you mean by "a more concrete sense"? In there anything more concrete than a position?
Answers.UserDisplayName: Pablo S. Ocal
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2014-10-19T21:02:18.787Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2014-10-20T11:30:47.397Z
Answers.LastEditDate: 2014-10-20T11:30:47.397Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: Pablo S. Ocal
Answers.Body: <p><em>Should</em> it be a draw? Probably. I don't think this line of thinking gets us any closer to a definitive answer though.</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2014-10-19T20:15:13.673Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2014-10-19T20:15:13.673Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: Cleveland
Body: <p>Take a look at this position:</p>
  
  <pre><code> [FEN "4k3/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/4K3 w - - 0 1"]
  </code></pre>
  
  <p>This is a popular chess "tabiya" at our club. The young students play it quite often actually. I placed this position in Deep Fritz 14 for 10 minutes or so, and it told me the game was a draw. A computer isn't needed to figure this out anyhow. Then an idea struck me.</p>
  
  <p>Since pawn moves are the only ones you cannot turn back, shouldn't this position be with the addition of pieces a draw? I am inclined to think so, encouraged by the popular "Chess is a draw" theory.</p>
  
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2014-10-19T19:44:41.530Z
Comments.Text: Are you asking whether this position is a draw, whether chess is a draw, or something else?
Comments.UserDisplayName: JiK
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2014-10-19T19:48:02.893Z
Comments.Text: I am trying to assume that if you add pieces to this drawn position would it be a draw, and if you add all pieces, would chess be a draw?
Comments.UserDisplayName: MikhailTal
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2014-10-19T19:49:13.913Z
Comments.Text: You can't just assume that, adding pieces to a drawn position doesn't automatically mean the new position is also a draw.
Comments.UserDisplayName: RemcoGerlich
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2014-10-19T19:53:42.927Z
Comments.Text: That is why I asked it here. Can an idea be generated?
Comments.UserDisplayName: MikhailTal
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2014-10-19T20:52:14.273Z
Comments.Text: Here's an idea: If you are black and need a draw, exchange all pieces.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Dag Oskar Madsen
Tags: <theory><endgame>
Title: Is this assumption correct or not?
ThreadText: # Is this assumption correct or not?
  
  (Asked by: username_0 on 2014-10-19)
  
  Take a look at this position:
   [FEN "4k3/pppppppp/8/8/8/8/PPPPPPPP/4K3 w - - 0 1"]
  
  This is a popular chess "tabiya" at our club. The young students play it quite often actually. I placed this position in Deep Fritz 14 for 10 minutes or so, and it told me the game was a draw. A computer isn't needed to figure this out anyhow. Then an idea struck me.
  Since pawn moves are the only ones you cannot turn back, shouldn't this position be with the addition of pieces a draw? I am inclined to think so, encouraged by the popular "Chess is a draw" theory.
  
  **Tags:** theory, endgame
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_1**: Are you asking whether this position is a draw, whether chess is a draw, or something else?  
  > **username_0**: I am trying to assume that if you add pieces to this drawn position would it be a draw, and if you add all pieces, would chess be a draw?  
  > **username_2**: You can't just assume that, adding pieces to a drawn position doesn't automatically mean the new position is also a draw.  
  > **username_0**: That is why I asked it here. Can an idea be generated?  
  > **username_3**: Here's an idea: If you are black and need a draw, exchange all pieces.  
  
  ---
  
  ## 2 answers
  
  ### Answer by username_4 on 2014-10-19. Score: 1
  
  If your assumption is:
  
  If a position is a draw and I add new pieces, then the position is still a draw.
  
  Then this is certainly false. As a proof, you may have a look at the position:
        [FEN "r4b1k/2R3np/3p2p1/3Qp1N1/qrb1P2P/P5N1/1B4P1/K1R5 w - - 10 35"]
        [Title "White to move and draw"]
  
  Which is a draw by perpetual check. Notice how black is threatening mate and attacking white's queen at the same time. Now, add a white pawn on e3, a white rook on e2, a black pawn on e6 and a black rook on e7:
        [FEN "r4b1k/2R1r1np/3pp1p1/3Qp1N1/qrb1P2P/P3P1N1/1B2R1P1/K1R5 w - - 10 35"]
        [Title "White to move and fail to draw"]
  
  Which is no longer a draw, since the added pawn blocks the discovered check and the rook controls the f7 square, allowing black to either checkmate white or to win enough material to convert without problems. Note that this also works without adding the extra pawn.
  A more tranquil position that also proves the assumption wrong is the next one:
        [FEN "k7/1p6/pP6/P2K4/8/8/5B2/8 w - - 0 1"]
        [Title "An effortless draw"]
  
  Despite being a piece down, black has achieved a drawn position. By simply moving the king back and forth from a8 to b8 black has secured the half point. Note how the position is still a draw without the extra bishop for white. Now, add a white pawn on h2 and a black pawn on h7.
        [FEN "k7/1p5p/pP6/P2K4/8/8/5B1P/8 w - - 0 1"]
        [Title "An effortless win"]
  
  The position is no longer a draw since white can chase off that extra pawn and queen his. If black leaves the protection of his pawns, white can choose to either win by the fox in the chicken coop principle or by securing a safe route to h8 to his pawn. Note that the position arising from the one without the extra bishop is also a win for white.
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_2**: The latter position still seems to be a draw, what's preventing 1.Nf7+ Kg8 2.Nh6+ Kh8 3.Nf7+ etc? You can remove all white's pieces except the knight, king, and pawn a3 and it's still a draw.  
  > **username_4**: Very true, I'll add a rook on `e2` and `e7` to avoid this. Instead of taking a simple composition, I took a real position, which might not have been the best choice.  
  > **username_0**: This is a "Fire on Board" type of position. What about a quiet one, such as the starting position? No mate or draw there.  
  > **username_4**: @username_0 my post has been edited to add another example.  
  > **username_0**: @pablo You can also put two queens looking at f7/f2. I am saying in a more concrete sense.  
  > **username_4**: I'm afraid I don't understand you. What do you mean by "a more concrete sense"? In there anything more concrete than a position?  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_5 on 2014-10-19. Score: -1
  
  *Should* it be a draw? Probably. I don't think this line of thinking gets us any closer to a definitive answer though.
  
  
  ---
  
  