Answers.Body: <p>If you promote to a queen with 1. b8Q, black has: </p>
  
  <blockquote>
    <p>1...Re2+ 2. Kd1 Rb2</p>
  </blockquote>
  
  <p>attacking the queen and hinting at mate with Rb1++. If white takes the rook 3. Qxb2 it is stalemate. </p>
  
  <p>Because of the mate threat white does not have any other good square for the queen either (no good check and no square that would defend b1). </p>
  
  <p>If you promote to a rook, black does not have this defense, because after 3. Rxb2 it would not be stalemate. The resulting endgame (King, rook and two knights vs king and rook) should be a reasonably easy win.</p>
  
  <p>Also you need to know that if the queen gets exchanged for the rook (e.g. after 1. b8Q Re2+ 2. Kd1 Rb2 3. Qb5+ Rxb5 4. Nxb5) , the endgame (king and tow knights vs king) is draw. </p>
  
  <p>For the same reason white cannot postpone the promotion because black has (at least) a draw if he can give his rook for the pawn (e.g. after 1. [random non-pawn move by white] Rb2 2. [random move] Rxb7).</p>
  
  <p>Lastly, any other underpromotion (to knight or bishop) does not work either, because black will win the piece on b8 in the above line after 2. ... Rb2 because of the mate threat on b1.</p>
  
  <p>So the only way to play for a win is by promoting to a rook.</p>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2018-03-19T05:11:33.330Z
Answers.Text: Is KRNN vs. KR really an "easy" win for a human (non-master) player? I have no idea, never having been in such an endgame. If I get in that position I don't know if my best chance is to promote to R and hope I can manage to win the resulting endgame, or promote to Q and hope my opponent doesn't see the stalemate trick.
Answers.UserDisplayName: bof
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2018-03-14T14:17:17.600Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2018-03-14T14:29:27.660Z
Answers.LastEditDate: 2018-03-14T14:29:27.660Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: user1583209
Answers.Body: <p>The <a href="http://tb7.chessok.com/probe" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Lomonosov 7-man Endgame Tablebase</a> show that after promotion to a queen, Black can play  1. ... Re2+ 2. Kd1 Rb2! (sacrificing the rook) Qxb2, the Black king is stalemated. If White doesn’t take the rook, then Black will take the queen and draw the game.</p>
  
  <pre><code>[FEN "8/1P6/3N4/8/8/3k4/r7/4KN2 w - - 0 1"]
  
  1. b8=Q? Re2+ 2. Kd1 Rb2! 3. Qxb2 (3. Kc1 Rxb8)
  </code></pre>
  
  <p>However, promoting to a rook avoids the stalemate and wins the game.</p>
  
  <pre><code>[FEN "8/1P6/3N4/8/8/3k4/r7/4KN2 w - - 0 1"]
  
  1. b8=R! Re2+ 2. Kd1 Rb2 3. Rxb2 Kc3
  </code></pre>
  
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2018-03-15T00:03:38.880Z
Answers.Text: Thanks.  Only used the 7-man because of the ability for fast analysis through the link provided.
Answers.UserDisplayName: hangejj
Answers.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 4.0
Answers.CreationDate: 2018-03-14T14:18:13.553Z
Answers.LastActivityDate: 2020-03-12T20:06:20.373Z
Answers.LastEditDate: 2020-03-12T20:06:20.373Z
Answers.UserDisplayName: hangejj
Body: <p>In the position below, I'm promoting my pawn. The app says promoting to a Queen is incorrect, but a Rook <em>is</em> correct? In this setup it doesn't make sense.</p>
  
  <pre><code>[FEN "8/1P6/3N4/8/8/3k4/r7/4KN2 w - - 0 1"]
  
  1.b8=R 1-0
  </code></pre>
  
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2018-03-14T19:46:23.643Z
Comments.Text: In short, to add to the detailed answers below, under-promotion is only ever beneficial for one of two reasons: (1) Promote to a knight, which attacks squares a queen does not, and therefore may be part of a combination to have checkmate in x moves; or (2) Avoid stalemate, by reducing the number of squares that the promoted piece immediately (or shortly thereafter) attacks. Since you are not promoting to a knight, we know the reason for under-promotion is (2). Knowing that, the trick is to find where the stalemate would occur, if you promoted to a queen. Such a position would be quite forced.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Grade 'Eh' Bacon
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2018-03-14T20:45:37.280Z
Comments.Text: @Grade'Eh'Bacon: (3) Promote to a knight as a defensive move (in order to prevent mate or loss of material).
Comments.UserDisplayName: user1583209
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2018-03-14T20:49:36.667Z
Comments.Text: (4) Promote  to a rook or bishop in situations where the promoted piece gets captured immediately anyway. (OK, this is not a must, but optional.) (5) Underpromote in situations where a  second queen is not available (e.g. in time trouble). (OK , this is somewhat constructed.)
Comments.UserDisplayName: user1583209
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2018-03-15T01:09:22.877Z
Comments.Text: @user1583209 okay you're right; promoting to knight can be useful for reasons other-than immediate checkmate. The point being simply that the immediate attack pattern of the knight may in some rare occasions exceed the value of a queen.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Grade 'Eh' Bacon
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2018-03-15T12:51:06.240Z
Comments.Text: (6) Underpromotion as a psychological attack. Can happen in real life (but might be dumb in most cases). I was once playing against a stronger player and feigned extreme confidence by underpromoting to a knight. The stronger player promptly resigned.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Klaws
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2018-03-15T16:54:20.530Z
Comments.Text: Also (2') promote to  a weaker piece in order to draw by getting stalemated.  There's a classic 6-man setup (Traxler-Derdle, if memory serves): Kh8 Nf8 Pg7 / Ka2 Qf7 Re8, White to move draws only with 1 g8B!!  This is a well-explored theme in endgame studies but has yet to arise
  in actual play.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Noam D. Elkies
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2018-03-16T10:51:44.840Z
Comments.Text: (7) Underpromotion as bragging, as in "I don't need a queen to win!". For example, promotion to rook in a KPK endgame.
Comments.UserDisplayName: itub
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2018-03-16T10:52:25.920Z
Comments.Text: Note: Being 99.9% sure this is from the chess.com app (daily puzzle), there's also an analysis button. I was just as confused as you are, so I checked the analysis and promoted to a queen. While initially it showed something like +53 (in other words, "I'm pretty sure this is mate in X but I don't know X yet"), after a few seconds it found the line also mentioned in the answers below.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Lolgast
Comments.ContentLicense: CC BY-SA 3.0
Comments.CreationDate: 2018-03-16T10:55:05.067Z
Comments.Text: Also, (8) Underpromotion to show a novice player some neat mates. At my local chess club I once got an opponent with king+bishop+pawn, who promoted to another bishop to show me the two bishop mate. At the time I was not amused (I was still young), but in hindsight it was entertaining.
Comments.UserDisplayName: Lolgast
Tags: <analysis><endgame><problems><pawn-promotion><rooks>
Title: Why underpromote in this KNNP-KR endgame?
ThreadText: # Why underpromote in this KNNP-KR endgame?
  
  (Asked by: username_0 on 2018-03-14)
  
  In the position below, I'm promoting my pawn. The app says promoting to a Queen is incorrect, but a Rook is correct? In this setup it doesn't make sense.
  [FEN "8/1P6/3N4/8/8/3k4/r7/4KN2 w - - 0 1"]
  
  1.b8=R 1-0
  
  **Tags:** analysis, endgame, problems, pawn-promotion, rooks
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_1**: In short, to add to the detailed answers below, under-promotion is only ever beneficial for one of two reasons: (1) Promote to a knight, which attacks squares a queen does not, and therefore may be part of a combination to have checkmate in x moves; or (2) Avoid stalemate, by reducing the number of squares that the promoted piece immediately (or shortly thereafter) attacks. Since you are not promoting to a knight, we know the reason for under-promotion is (2). Knowing that, the trick is to find where the stalemate would occur, if you promoted to a queen. Such a position would be quite forced.  
  > **username_2**: @Grade'Eh'Bacon: (3) Promote to a knight as a defensive move (in order to prevent mate or loss of material).  
  > **username_2**: (4) Promote  to a rook or bishop in situations where the promoted piece gets captured immediately anyway. (OK, this is not a must, but optional.) (5) Underpromote in situations where a  second queen is not available (e.g. in time trouble). (OK , this is somewhat constructed.)  
  > **username_1**: @username_2 okay you're right; promoting to knight can be useful for reasons other-than immediate checkmate. The point being simply that the immediate attack pattern of the knight may in some rare occasions exceed the value of a queen.  
  > **username_3**: (6) Underpromotion as a psychological attack. Can happen in real life (but might be dumb in most cases). I was once playing against a stronger player and feigned extreme confidence by underpromoting to a knight. The stronger player promptly resigned.  
  > **username_4**: Also (2') promote to  a weaker piece in order to draw by getting stalemated.  There's a classic 6-man setup (Traxler-Derdle, if memory serves): Kh8 Nf8 Pg7 / Ka2 Qf7 Re8, White to move draws only with 1 g8B!!  This is a well-explored theme in endgame studies but has yet to arise in actual play.  
  > **username_5**: (7) Underpromotion as bragging, as in "I don't need a queen to win!". For example, promotion to rook in a KPK endgame.  
  > **username_6**: Note: Being 99.9% sure this is from the chess.com app (daily puzzle), there's also an analysis button. I was just as confused as you are, so I checked the analysis and promoted to a queen. While initially it showed something like +53 (in other words, "I'm pretty sure this is mate in X but I don't know X yet"), after a few seconds it found the line also mentioned in the answers below.  
  > **username_6**: Also, (8) Underpromotion to show a novice player some neat mates. At my local chess club I once got an opponent with king+bishop+pawn, who promoted to another bishop to show me the two bishop mate. At the time I was not amused (I was still young), but in hindsight it was entertaining.  
  
  ---
  
  ## 2 answers
  
  ### Answer by username_2 on 2018-03-14. Score: 46
  
  If you promote to a queen with 1. b8Q, black has:
  
  > 1...Re2+ 2. Kd1 Rb2
  
  attacking the queen and hinting at mate with Rb1++. If white takes the rook 3. Qxb2 it is stalemate.
  
  Because of the mate threat white does not have any other good square for the queen either (no good check and no square that would defend b1).
  
  If you promote to a rook, black does not have this defense, because after 3. Rxb2 it would not be stalemate. The resulting endgame (King, rook and two knights vs king and rook) should be a reasonably easy win.
  
  Also you need to know that if the queen gets exchanged for the rook (e.g. after 1. b8Q Re2+ 2. Kd1 Rb2 3. Qb5+ Rxb5 4. Nxb5) , the endgame (king and tow knights vs king) is draw.
  
  For the same reason white cannot postpone the promotion because black has (at least) a draw if he can give his rook for the pawn (e.g. after 1. [random non-pawn move by white] Rb2 2. [random move] Rxb7).
  
  Lastly, any other underpromotion (to knight or bishop) does not work either, because black will win the piece on b8 in the above line after 2. ... Rb2 because of the mate threat on b1.
  
  So the only way to play for a win is by promoting to a rook.
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_7**: Is KRNN vs. KR really an "easy" win for a human (non-master) player? I have no idea, never having been in such an endgame. If I get in that position I don't know if my best chance is to promote to R and hope I can manage to win the resulting endgame, or promote to Q and hope my opponent doesn't see the stalemate trick.  
  
  ---
  
  ### Answer by username_8 on 2018-03-14. Score: 15
  
  The Lomonosov 7-man Endgame Tablebase show that after promotion to a queen, Black can play  1. ... Re2+ 2. Kd1 Rb2! (sacrificing the rook) Qxb2, the Black king is stalemated. If White doesn’t take the rook, then Black will take the queen and draw the game.
  [FEN "8/1P6/3N4/8/8/3k4/r7/4KN2 w - - 0 1"]
  
  1. b8=Q? Re2+ 2. Kd1 Rb2! 3. Qxb2 (3. Kc1 Rxb8)
  
  However, promoting to a rook avoids the stalemate and wins the game.
  [FEN "8/1P6/3N4/8/8/3k4/r7/4KN2 w - - 0 1"]
  
  1. b8=R! Re2+ 2. Kd1 Rb2 3. Rxb2 Kc3
  
  > **Comments:**
  > **username_8**: Thanks.  Only used the 7-man because of the ability for fast analysis through the link provided.  
  
  ---
  
  