<p>In addition to Andrei's answer, I would just like to point out that you're only classifying the actions you describe as illogical in the context of an important question. There's nothing illogical about rubbing your nose if it itches. What these "answers" are pointing to is that everyday life and experience ARE the state of satori for those that have experienced the non-duality of what appear to be two different things. In Zen Buddhism (and by extension in most Mahayana traditions), they are like the two poles of a magnet: you can't have a magnet with just one pole, so the poles are actually non-dual. </p>

<p>The problem is that this is very difficult to put in words, since language is all about classification, so the experience of Satori is to be experienced, not described. This is not as esotheric as it may sound: it's similarly almost impossible to describe the exact taste of chocolate to someone who's never tasted it, for example.</p>

<p>Thinking about "states of mind" to discuss this can be helpful, but at the same time it's a hindrance since it creates the conception that there are stages one must go through. According to Zen teachings, satori can take 30 years, or 3 seconds. This is why Zen is called the "Sudden Teaching".</p>

<p>We do have some scientific studies on the subject, most notably <a href="https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/zen-and-brain" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Zen and the brain</a> and the more recent work of neuroscientist Sam Harris: <a href="https://samharris.org/books/waking-up/" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Waking Up</a>.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-01-20T13:35:01.953Z
2019-01-20T13:35:01.953Z
Codosaur
<p>It's a state known as Great Doubt, "dai-gidan" (Japanese) or "dayituan" (Chinese):</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>In Ch'an and Zen practice, this represents a highly intense doubt about everything one thinks to be true, including the efficacy of Zen practice itself. <sub>(<a href="http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095657834" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Oxfordreference.com</a>)</sub></p>
</blockquote>

<p>For more information, please see the following question: <a href="https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/30659/how-does-the-great-doubt-compare-to-doubt">How does the 'Great Doubt' compare to doubt</a>.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-01-19T23:25:54.187Z
2019-01-19T23:41:23.320Z
2019-01-19T23:41:23.320Z
Andriy Volkov
<p>Up to that point, they probably think Satori is some "big thing".  When the master tells them its the same as doing the washing up, or picking your nose. Then they get it.  It about a change of expectations, not a change of the state in their mind.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-01-23T11:17:53.440Z
2019-01-23T11:17:53.440Z
ThirdPrize
<p>I have almost finished reading D.T. Suzuki's 'Essay's in Zen Buddhism'. There are many stories of disciples attaining state of Satori (which according to book is akin to Nirvana) when the Zen master does something illogical like twisting the nose or giving an absurd answer to what is asked.</p>

<p>As I am thinking about this it must be that the disciples mind must be in certain state that when the push is given by master it attains Satori. </p>

<p>Do we have any analytical understanding of this state? Its psychology? Is it a silent persent moment awareness for a long time? Is it something special to the culture and/or mind. Do we have any such examples of monks attaining Satori in present times?</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-02-09T18:12:19.260Z
Just a quick tidbit:  I can’t recall reading that book, but I suspect you might be missing something.  My understanding of Satori is that it is a flash - an unblocking if you will - and it creates an opening for Nirvana as a possibility.  Nirvana is something I’ve always interpreted as permanent and unchanging - the end of suffering.
dgo
<zen>
What is the state of a Zen disciples mind prior to a Satori?
# What is the state of a Zen disciples mind prior to a Satori?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2019-01-19)

I have almost finished reading D.T. Suzuki's 'Essay's in Zen Buddhism'. There are many stories of disciples attaining state of Satori (which according to book is akin to Nirvana) when the Zen master does something illogical like twisting the nose or giving an absurd answer to what is asked.

As I am thinking about this it must be that the disciples mind must be in certain state that when the push is given by master it attains Satori.

Do we have any analytical understanding of this state? Its psychology? Is it a silent persent moment awareness for a long time? Is it something special to the culture and/or mind. Do we have any such examples of monks attaining Satori in present times?

**Tags:** zen

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: Just a quick tidbit:  I can’t recall reading that book, but I suspect you might be missing something.  My understanding of Satori is that it is a flash - an unblocking if you will - and it creates an opening for Nirvana as a possibility.  Nirvana is something I’ve always interpreted as permanent and unchanging - the end of suffering.  

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## 3 answers

### Answer by username_2 on 2019-01-20. Score: 2

In addition to Andrei's answer, I would just like to point out that you're only classifying the actions you describe as illogical in the context of an important question. There's nothing illogical about rubbing your nose if it itches. What these "answers" are pointing to is that everyday life and experience ARE the state of satori for those that have experienced the non-duality of what appear to be two different things. In Zen Buddhism (and by extension in most Mahayana traditions), they are like the two poles of a magnet: you can't have a magnet with just one pole, so the poles are actually non-dual.

The problem is that this is very difficult to put in words, since language is all about classification, so the experience of Satori is to be experienced, not described. This is not as esotheric as it may sound: it's similarly almost impossible to describe the exact taste of chocolate to someone who's never tasted it, for example.

Thinking about "states of mind" to discuss this can be helpful, but at the same time it's a hindrance since it creates the conception that there are stages one must go through. According to Zen teachings, satori can take 30 years, or 3 seconds. This is why Zen is called the "Sudden Teaching".

We do have some scientific studies on the subject, most notably [Zen and the brain](https://mitpress.mit.edu/books/zen-and-brain) and the more recent work of neuroscientist Sam Harris: [Waking Up](https://samharris.org/books/waking-up/).


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### Answer by username_3 on 2019-01-19. Score: 2

It's a state known as Great Doubt, "dai-gidan" (Japanese) or "dayituan" (Chinese):

> In Ch'an and Zen practice, this represents a highly intense doubt about everything one thinks to be true, including the efficacy of Zen practice itself. ([Oxfordreference.com](http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803095657834))

For more information, please see the following question: [How does the 'Great Doubt' compare to doubt](https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/30659/how-does-the-great-doubt-compare-to-doubt).


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### Answer by username_4 on 2019-01-23. Score: 1

Up to that point, they probably think Satori is some "big thing". When the master tells them its the same as doing the washing up, or picking your nose. Then they get it. It about a change of expectations, not a change of the state in their mind.


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