<p>The Mindfulness practice that is taught in a secular fashion in the West is based on the Buddhist Satipaṭṭāna-vipassanā practices, but it is a bit different. For one, in Buddhism, vipassnā is meant to be practiced within a certain framework of Buddhist thought and forms only a small part of the overall practice. Second, the "nonjudgemental awareness" you find in secular Mindfulness is something you won't find in the Buddhist Satipaṭṭāna practice. In the discourses the practitioner is instructed direct the mind away from unskillful states and direct the mind towards skillful mental states, so there's definitely an evaluation going on. See Bhikkhu Analayo's "Satipaṭṭāna: The Direct Path to Liberation" text for an in-depth discussion on this.  </p>

<p>As a result of the above, the experiences of Mindfulness practitioners can only be loosely connected to what we find in the Buddhist texts. In the discourses, the awareness of impermanence is said to lead to this:</p>

<p>“Bhikkhus, when the perception of impermanence is developed and cultivated, it eliminates all sensual lust, it eliminates all lust for existence, it eliminates all ignorance, it uproots all conceit ‘I am.’" - SN22.102</p>

<p>Buddhist meditators who practice is within the traditional framework certainly experiences these things (it takes a good deal of concentration - i.e. calming of the mind - to get to this point), but do Mindfulness practitioners do as well? And if they do, is that really what they hoped to get out of it?</p>

<p>Most practitioners of Mindfulness do it with the expectation of receiving benefits for their everyday lives. But in Buddhism Satipaṭṭāna practice has usually been the domain of monks and nuns living an ascetic lifestyle. The texts never claim, to my knowledge, that it would make a person more ready to go through the hustle and bustle of a daily layperson's life. </p>

<p>According to Guy Armstrong, a meditation teacher at Spirit Rock, for a while he found that could not relate at all to the Buddhist texts with regard to this meditation practice. But later after his practice deepened and his emotions stabilized, he realized that he was practicing for "emotional healing" but the Buddhist texts were not aimed at that purpose.</p>

<p>So in summary, the secular Mindfulness practice taught in the West today, while having origins in Buddhism, is a 1)slightly different practice and 2)aimed at a different purpose.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-12-20T20:17:26.520Z
2014-12-20T20:17:26.520Z
Vimukti
<p>(I think it's likely this question will be seen as prone to opinion-based answers, but I'm going to offer some thoughts anyway, since I want to balance my comments critiquing your question :-) )</p>

<p>I'd say the basic answer is "yes", mindfulness when approached in the way you describe could indeed cause harm. I see at least three forms that harm could take:</p>

<ol>
<li>The "opportunity cost" incurred by a practitioner who spends a lot of time on the kind of denuded mindfulness you describe, thinking it's the Real McCoy, and as a result fails to ever find a truly fruitful complete practice. </li>
<li>Actual harm in the form of an increased narcissism in the practitioner</li>
<li>The kinds of mental trauma described by people like Daniel Ingram and Willoughby Britton (the so-called "Dark Night") which I think are arguably caused by people plunging too quickly and deeply into intensive (and unguided) vipassana-focused practice without a balancing practice in morality</li>
</ol>

<p>All that said, I'd find it hard to impossible to say just how much of the above theoretically possible harm is experienced in practice. I'd guess (but based on my reading of Ingram, Britton, and also Shinzen Young and others) that the third point is rare. </p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-12-21T10:19:05.480Z
An article about Britton's "Dark Night" project: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/06/the-dark-knight-of-the-souls/372766/?single_page=true
joeytwiddle
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-12-20T18:49:53.417Z
2014-12-20T18:49:53.417Z
tkp
<p><strong>Is there a harmful side to mindfulness as it is practiced in Western materialistic/capitalistic cultures?</strong></p>

<p>Clearly the modern mindfulness movement has been very successful, but I'm wondering if that's at the expense of losing its spiritual core. And it concerns me that what we are left with is just another kind of narcissistic solipsistic selfishness. Is there any validity in my concerns, or am I worrying about nothing?</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-12-20T18:25:38.827Z
I do see a "?" in there, but are you sure this is a question?
tkp
CC BY-SA 3.0
2014-12-20T18:34:08.467Z
OK, cool. Your question is too long for me to attempt a rewrite without killing your intent. So I think there are two issues I could point at you could fix. First, your question is coming across as being rhetorical. You seem to think that there currently *is* a problem with mindfulness as displayed in the West. Second, the whole thing is just too long and, if I may, wordy and technical. (Are you a philosophy grad by any chance). I think it would read better if you put your question right at the top, and then gave at most a paragraph of explanation below it. I'll attempt it below your words.
tkp
<modern-world><enlightenment><mindfulness><meditation-mindfulness>
Is there a harmful side to mindfulness as it is practiced in Western materialistic/capitalistic cultures?
# Is there a harmful side to mindfulness as it is practiced in Western materialistic/capitalistic cultures?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2014-12-20)

**Is there a harmful side to mindfulness as it is practiced in Western materialistic/capitalistic cultures?**

Clearly the modern mindfulness movement has been very successful, but I'm wondering if that's at the expense of losing its spiritual core. And it concerns me that what we are left with is just another kind of narcissistic solipsistic selfishness. Is there any validity in my concerns, or am I worrying about nothing?

**Tags:** modern-world, enlightenment, mindfulness, meditation-mindfulness

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: I do see a "?" in there, but are you sure this is a question?  
> **username_1**: OK, cool. Your question is too long for me to attempt a rewrite without killing your intent. So I think there are two issues I could point at you could fix. First, your question is coming across as being rhetorical. You seem to think that there currently *is* a problem with mindfulness as displayed in the West. Second, the whole thing is just too long and, if I may, wordy and technical. (Are you a philosophy grad by any chance). I think it would read better if you put your question right at the top, and then gave at most a paragraph of explanation below it. I'll attempt it below your words.  

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## 2 answers

### Answer by username_2 on 2014-12-20. Score: 5 | Accepted answer

The Mindfulness practice that is taught in a secular fashion in the West is based on the Buddhist Satipaṭṭāna-vipassanā practices, but it is a bit different. For one, in Buddhism, vipassnā is meant to be practiced within a certain framework of Buddhist thought and forms only a small part of the overall practice. Second, the "nonjudgemental awareness" you find in secular Mindfulness is something you won't find in the Buddhist Satipaṭṭāna practice. In the discourses the practitioner is instructed direct the mind away from unskillful states and direct the mind towards skillful mental states, so there's definitely an evaluation going on. See Bhikkhu Analayo's "Satipaṭṭāna: The Direct Path to Liberation" text for an in-depth discussion on this.

As a result of the above, the experiences of Mindfulness practitioners can only be loosely connected to what we find in the Buddhist texts. In the discourses, the awareness of impermanence is said to lead to this:

“Bhikkhus, when the perception of impermanence is developed and cultivated, it eliminates all sensual lust, it eliminates all lust for existence, it eliminates all ignorance, it uproots all conceit ‘I am.’" - SN22.102

Buddhist meditators who practice is within the traditional framework certainly experiences these things (it takes a good deal of concentration - i.e. calming of the mind - to get to this point), but do Mindfulness practitioners do as well? And if they do, is that really what they hoped to get out of it?

Most practitioners of Mindfulness do it with the expectation of receiving benefits for their everyday lives. But in Buddhism Satipaṭṭāna practice has usually been the domain of monks and nuns living an ascetic lifestyle. The texts never claim, to my knowledge, that it would make a person more ready to go through the hustle and bustle of a daily layperson's life.

According to Guy Armstrong, a meditation teacher at Spirit Rock, for a while he found that could not relate at all to the Buddhist texts with regard to this meditation practice. But later after his practice deepened and his emotions stabilized, he realized that he was practicing for "emotional healing" but the Buddhist texts were not aimed at that purpose.

So in summary, the secular Mindfulness practice taught in the West today, while having origins in Buddhism, is a 1)slightly different practice and 2)aimed at a different purpose.


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### Answer by username_1 on 2014-12-20. Score: 3

(I think it's likely this question will be seen as prone to opinion-based answers, but I'm going to offer some thoughts anyway, since I want to balance my comments critiquing your question :-) )

I'd say the basic answer is "yes", mindfulness when approached in the way you describe could indeed cause harm. I see at least three forms that harm could take:

1. The "opportunity cost" incurred by a practitioner who spends a lot of time on the kind of denuded mindfulness you describe, thinking it's the Real McCoy, and as a result fails to ever find a truly fruitful complete practice.
2. Actual harm in the form of an increased narcissism in the practitioner
3. The kinds of mental trauma described by people like Daniel Ingram and Willoughby Britton (the so-called "Dark Night") which I think are arguably caused by people plunging too quickly and deeply into intensive (and unguided) vipassana-focused practice without a balancing practice in morality

All that said, I'd find it hard to impossible to say just how much of the above theoretically possible harm is experienced in practice. I'd guess (but based on my reading of Ingram, Britton, and also Shinzen Young and others) that the third point is rare.

> **Comments:**
> **username_3**: An article about Britton's "Dark Night" project: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/06/the-dark-knight-of-the-souls/372766/?single_page=true  

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