<p>Please limit yourself to reading only canonical texts (Sutta Pitaka) until you are fully established in the Path. Do not go into the Visuddhimagga – it is only a thesis that Buddhagosha Thera wrote to show his qualifications. When there are nearly 18,000 suttas that are found in the canonical texts why would one want to check the commentaries and others first? Even Abhidhamma came only after the 3rd Buddhist Council. If one starts with Abhi-dhamma first, it will confuse things further.</p>

<p>At the time of Ven. Mahinda arrived in Sri Lanka the native language of the island was not called Sinhala, but known as “dipa bhasa”, the language of the island, and this was closely related to the Brahmi language of Asokan inscriptions. Ven. Mahinda used the Pali language to preach to the people, but used the native language for the purpose of commenting on suttas and it is these that became known as Sinhala-atthakatha. Only a learned individual can identify errors found in these atthakatha. So it is advisable to limit yourself to reading only canonical texts (Sutta Pitaka) until you are fully established in the Path.</p>

<p>Venerable Buddhagosa came to Sri Lanka in the 5th century AC and translated these Sinhala-atthakatha or Sinhala commentaries on the texts into Pali. He was not translating the canonical texts. So as I mentioned earlier, his Visuddhimagga is a text written to show his proficiency to convince the Mahavihara monks that he was capable of undertaking such a daunting task of translating the Sinhala-commentaries into Pali.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-07-08T00:19:13.287Z
2016-07-08T00:19:13.287Z
Saptha Visuddhi
<p>Ajahn Brahm wrote an excellent book called Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond.
His central thesis is that without Jhana there is no enlightenment, and that it was jhana that led to the Buddha's awakening. I have to agree with him. I would add that Jhana, Zazen and absolute samadhi meditation are the same thing based on focused concentration/absorption. Seventeen years ago I started Vipassana (mindfulness) meditation and although it's a good foundation, it never led me to deeper stages of awakening. When I started studying and practicing Zen especially absolute samadhi meditation as taught by Katsuki Sekida this is when I began to
truly understand the Buddha's teachings.</p>

<p>Katsuki Sekida wrote a book called Zen training (methods and philosophy) I would get it, along with Ajahn Brahm book it definately will help you. I guarantee it will deepen your understanding of meditation and Buddhism. I know in my own practice learning to let go of all conceptual understanding, thinking, and just let things happen, is when the magic appears in meditation, or I should say drops off. Waste of time talking about Buddhism. Buddhism is a very personal practice...absolutely no one can help you. All that really matters is the meditation.</p>

<p>All the best
M</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-05-10T03:37:53.063Z
2018-05-10T03:37:53.063Z
Mark Jamison
<p>Jhana is only required for arahantship. The noble eighthold path is the path to Nibbana or arahantship but not necessarily a path that must be fully completed for insight (vipassana). </p>

<p>At this <a href="http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha267.htm" rel="nofollow">link</a>, Bhikkhu Bodhi gives an excellent account of how, in the suttas, stream-entry does not require jhana. </p>

<p>Yet to be a stream-enterer there must be some clear insight of anatta (not-self) since a stream-enterer is defined by breaking the fetter of 'self-view' ('sakkaya ditthi'). </p>

<p>In the <a href="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn13/sn13.001.than.html" rel="nofollow">Nakhasikha Sutta</a>, it is stated the stream-enterer has "not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth" of their former suffering. To extinguish so much suffering cannot occur without insight (vipassana). Yet such a stream-enterer has not yet reached the <a href="http://www.vipassana.info/079-culasakuludayi-e1.htm" rel="nofollow">'world' of jhana</a>. </p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-07-08T00:59:20.730Z
2016-07-08T01:10:19.517Z
2016-07-08T01:10:19.517Z
Dhamma Dhatu
<p>You can reach Stream Entry just with Vipassana Directly (Mahasi Tradition).
But from our experience in Myanmar , with AungThuKha method , which is Hybrid of Samatha and Vipassana. 
There we are practiced till samahta meditation and reaches 1st Jhana within 3 -5 days. After it is is fulfilled , we are moved to vipassana , the retreat last 15 days and it is fastest way to reach Stream Entry.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-05-11T11:45:33.717Z
2018-05-11T11:45:33.717Z
Phyo Arkar Lwin
<p>This notion has arisen by the commentarial re interpretation of the <a href="http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/41.5-Yuganaddha-Patipada-S-a4.170-piya.pdf" rel="nofollow noreferrer">(Yuga,naddha) Paṭipadā Sutta</a>. More details are given in the following easy: <a href="http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/41.1-Samatha-and-vipassana-piya.pdf" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Samatha and Vipassanā</a> by Piya Tan. Also the modern Vipassana Movement has some effects in spreading this nortion. Some discussion about the Vipassana Movement can be found in <a href="https://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/12/05/how-buddhist-traditions-are-transforming-and-being-transformed-through-their-relation-with-western-psychology-2/" rel="nofollow noreferrer">How Buddhist traditions are transforming – and being transformed – through their relation with Western psychology</a> by Ven. Sujato</p>

<p>Also see: <a href="http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/Experience%20of%20Samadhi_Shankman.pdf" rel="nofollow noreferrer">The Experience of Samadhi: An In-depth Exploration of Buddhist Meditation</a> by  Richard Shankman</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-11-30T00:53:29.733Z
It's interesting, that the sutta states that individuals can gain arahantship by insight then calm, so then that calm (Samatha?) wouldn't be the same as concentration (samadhi)and it's also given by Annanda. I can't recall the Buddha ever making this claim.
m2015
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-11-29T03:52:13.650Z
2015-11-29T04:17:49.660Z
2018-08-14T22:06:13.773Z
Suminda Sirinath S. Dharmasena
<p>From everywhere I've read and heard in the suttas they talk about the jhanas being needed for insight, but as I understand it the Visuddhimagga gives the option of dry insight not requiring the jhanas. Does anyone know what canonical source Buddhagosa was basing this on?</p>

<theravada><reference-request><jhana><visuddhimagga><canon>
The path of jhana vs the path of dry insight
# The path of jhana vs the path of dry insight

(Asked by: username_0 on 2015-11-28)

From everywhere I've read and heard in the suttas they talk about the jhanas being needed for insight, but as I understand it the Visuddhimagga gives the option of dry insight not requiring the jhanas. Does anyone know what canonical source Buddhagosa was basing this on?

**Tags:** theravada, reference-request, jhana, visuddhimagga, canon


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## 5 answers

### Answer by username_5 on 2015-11-29. Score: 3 | Accepted answer

This notion has arisen by the commentarial re interpretation of the [(Yuga,naddha) Paṭipadā Sutta](http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/41.5-Yuganaddha-Patipada-S-a4.170-piya.pdf). More details are given in the following easy: [Samatha and Vipassanā](http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/41.1-Samatha-and-vipassana-piya.pdf) by Piya Tan. Also the modern Vipassana Movement has some effects in spreading this nortion. Some discussion about the Vipassana Movement can be found in [How Buddhist traditions are transforming – and being transformed – through their relation with Western psychology](https://sujato.wordpress.com/2011/12/05/how-buddhist-traditions-are-transforming-and-being-transformed-through-their-relation-with-western-psychology-2/) by Ven. Sujato

Also see: [The Experience of Samadhi: An In-depth Exploration of Buddhist Meditation](http://www.ahandfulofleaves.org/documents/Experience%20of%20Samadhi_Shankman.pdf) by Richard Shankman

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: It's interesting, that the sutta states that individuals can gain arahantship by insight then calm, so then that calm (Samatha?) wouldn't be the same as concentration (samadhi)and it's also given by Annanda. I can't recall the Buddha ever making this claim.  

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### Answer by username_1 on 2016-07-08. Score: 1

Please limit yourself to reading only canonical texts (Sutta Pitaka) until you are fully established in the Path. Do not go into the Visuddhimagga – it is only a thesis that Buddhagosha Thera wrote to show his qualifications. When there are nearly 18,000 suttas that are found in the canonical texts why would one want to check the commentaries and others first? Even Abhidhamma came only after the 3rd Buddhist Council. If one starts with Abhi-dhamma first, it will confuse things further.

At the time of Ven. Mahinda arrived in Sri Lanka the native language of the island was not called Sinhala, but known as “dipa bhasa”, the language of the island, and this was closely related to the Brahmi language of Asokan inscriptions. Ven. Mahinda used the Pali language to preach to the people, but used the native language for the purpose of commenting on suttas and it is these that became known as Sinhala-atthakatha. Only a learned individual can identify errors found in these atthakatha. So it is advisable to limit yourself to reading only canonical texts (Sutta Pitaka) until you are fully established in the Path.

Venerable Buddhagosa came to Sri Lanka in the 5th century AC and translated these Sinhala-atthakatha or Sinhala commentaries on the texts into Pali. He was not translating the canonical texts. So as I mentioned earlier, his Visuddhimagga is a text written to show his proficiency to convince the Mahavihara monks that he was capable of undertaking such a daunting task of translating the Sinhala-commentaries into Pali.


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### Answer by username_2 on 2018-05-10. Score: 1

Ajahn Brahm wrote an excellent book called Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond.
His central thesis is that without Jhana there is no enlightenment, and that it was jhana that led to the Buddha's awakening. I have to agree with him. I would add that Jhana, Zazen and absolute samadhi meditation are the same thing based on focused concentration/absorption. Seventeen years ago I started Vipassana (mindfulness) meditation and although it's a good foundation, it never led me to deeper stages of awakening. When I started studying and practicing Zen especially absolute samadhi meditation as taught by Katsuki Sekida this is when I began to
truly understand the Buddha's teachings.

Katsuki Sekida wrote a book called Zen training (methods and philosophy) I would get it, along with Ajahn Brahm book it definately will help you. I guarantee it will deepen your understanding of meditation and Buddhism. I know in my own practice learning to let go of all conceptual understanding, thinking, and just let things happen, is when the magic appears in meditation, or I should say drops off. Waste of time talking about Buddhism. Buddhism is a very personal practice...absolutely no one can help you. All that really matters is the meditation.

All the best
M


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### Answer by username_3 on 2016-07-08. Score: 1

Jhana is only required for arahantship. The noble eighthold path is the path to Nibbana or arahantship but not necessarily a path that must be fully completed for insight (vipassana).

At this [link](http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha267.htm), Bhikkhu Bodhi gives an excellent account of how, in the suttas, stream-entry does not require jhana.

Yet to be a stream-enterer there must be some clear insight of anatta (not-self) since a stream-enterer is defined by breaking the fetter of 'self-view' ('sakkaya ditthi').

In the [Nakhasikha Sutta](http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn13/sn13.001.than.html), it is stated the stream-enterer has "not a hundredth, a thousandth, a one hundred-thousandth" of their former suffering. To extinguish so much suffering cannot occur without insight (vipassana). Yet such a stream-enterer has not yet reached the ['world' of jhana](http://www.vipassana.info/079-culasakuludayi-e1.htm).


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### Answer by username_4 on 2018-05-11. Score: 0

You can reach Stream Entry just with Vipassana Directly (Mahasi Tradition).
But from our experience in Myanmar , with AungThuKha method , which is Hybrid of Samatha and Vipassana.
There we are practiced till samahta meditation and reaches 1st Jhana within 3 -5 days. After it is is fulfilled , we are moved to vipassana , the retreat last 15 days and it is fastest way to reach Stream Entry.


---

