<p>In my Mahayana interpretation, from birth comes "this entire pile of dukkha" such as: aging, sickness, death, separation from dear, meeting with undesired, sorrow, lamentation and so on and so forth. The list in the sutta is clearly supposed to be enumerating standard examples of dukkha from 1st noble truth. In Mahayana we often read such passages not literally but as casual colloquial idiomatic approximations. </p>

<p>When a text is interpreted in Mahayana style, we tend to pay attention to the implied meaning and the overall message more than to the details. So in this case we would understand this passage as saying "with birth as condition there come all kinds of dukkha" and treat the examples as pointers intended to outline the category, rather than as important on their own. </p>

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2018-12-09T04:42:30.700Z
2018-12-09T04:42:30.700Z
Andriy Volkov
<p>I think these riddles might be solves by examining teachings about sorrow. </p>

<p><a href="https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.001.than.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">SN 22.1</a> says sorrow only occurs when there is conceiving ideas of "self", as follows: </p>

<blockquote>
  <p><em>He is seized with the idea that 'I am consciousness' or
  'Consciousness is mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his
  consciousness changes &amp; alters, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation,
  pain, distress, &amp; despair over its change &amp; alteration.</em></p>
  
  <p><em>He is not seized with the idea that 'I am consciousness' or 'Consciousness is mine.' As he is not seized with these ideas, his
  consciousness changes &amp; alters, but he does not fall into sorrow,
  lamentation, pain, distress, or despair over its change &amp; alteration.</em></p>
</blockquote>

<p>The Piyavagga says where there is no love, there is no sorrow:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p><em>210. Seek no intimacy with the beloved and also not with the unloved, for not to see the beloved and to see the unloved, both are painful.</em></p>
  
  <p><em>211. Therefore hold nothing dear, for separation from the dear is painful. There are no bonds for those who have nothing beloved or
  unloved.</em></p>
  
  <p><em>212. From endearment springs grief, from endearment springs fear. For one who is wholly free from endearment there is no grief, whence then
  fear?</em></p>
</blockquote>

<p>Similarly, many suttas say sorrow occurs due to loss of loved relatives, as follows:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p><em>Now at that time a certain householder's dear &amp; beloved little son, his only child, had died. Because of his death, the father had no
  desire to work or to eat. He kept going to the cemetery and crying
  out, "Where have you gone, my only little child? Where have you gone,
  my only little child?" Then he went to the Blessed One, who said:
  "That's the way it is, householder. That's the way it is — for sorrow,
  lamentation, pain, distress, &amp; despair are born from one who is dear,
  come springing from one who is dear." MN 87</em></p>
  
  <p><em>Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother. The tears you have shed over the death of a mother... the death of a
  father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death
  of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to
  relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to
  disease. SN 15.3</em></p>
</blockquote>

<p>In MN 26, relatives are called "acquisitions" (upadhi), i.e., things attached to with infatuation, as follows:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p><em>And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses &amp; children are subject to birth. Men &amp; women slaves... goats &amp; sheep... fowl &amp;
  pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, &amp; mares... gold &amp; silver are
  subject to birth. Subject to birth are these acquisitions, and one who
  is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for
  them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth.
  MN 26</em></p>
</blockquote>

<p>SN 12.66 says "acquisitions" give birth to "death", as follows: </p>

<blockquote>
  <p><em>The many diverse kinds of suffering that arise in the world headed by aging-and-death: this suffering has acquisition as its source,
  acquisition as its origin; it is born and produced from acquisition.
  When there is acquisition, aging-and-death comes to be; when there is
  no acquisition, aging-and-death does not come to be.</em></p>
</blockquote>

<p>Therefore, it seems sorrow arises from the death of what is loved; and what is called "birth" is based on "acquisitions" of things regarded as "self". </p>

<blockquote>
  <p><em>And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses &amp; children are subject to birth. Men &amp; women slaves... goats &amp; sheep... fowl &amp;
  pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, &amp; mares... gold &amp; silver are
  subject to birth. <strong>Subject to birth are these acquisitions</strong>, and one who
  is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for
  them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth.
  MN 26</em></p>
</blockquote>

<p>In summary, "birth" appears to be the production of ideas of "persons" or "beings" from mere aggregates and when the aggregates change &amp; alter (per SN 22.1), sorrow occurs. </p>

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2018-12-09T11:29:07.830Z
2018-12-09T11:29:07.830Z
Dhamma Dhatu
<blockquote>
  <p>If death must occur for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress &amp; despair
  to come into play; what is the cause for people having sorrow, grief &amp;
  despair before death, i.e., in the present moment?</p>
  
  <p>If death must occur for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress &amp; despair
  to come into play; is sorrow, grief &amp; despair only experienced after
  death?</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Aging &amp; death must come together to show "if you born without
    unstable, it's ok. But actually, your life is unstable because it's
    going to be aging &amp; death, it's not ok. Because while you are living, birth+aging+death, you are going to have sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress &amp; despair to come into play aging &amp; death." </p>

<p><a href="http://84000.org/tipitaka/read/roman_item_s.php?book=16&amp;item=4&amp;items=15&amp;h=j%C4%81tipaccay%C4%81%20%20%20%20%20jar%C4%81mara%E1%B9%87a%E1%B9%83%20%20%20%20%20sokaparidevadukkhadomanassup%C4%81y%C4%81s%C4%81" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Pali context</a> only shows birth causes "aging &amp; death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress &amp; despair to come into play". Nothing in pāli context shows aging &amp; death cause "sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress &amp; despair to come into play". </p>

<blockquote>
  <p>jāti<strong>paccayā</strong>     jarāmar<strong>aṇaṃ</strong>  sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyā<strong>sā</strong> sambhavanti.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>So, your both questions are misunderstood pali context. There is nothing in pali context shows  "death must occur for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress &amp; despair to come into play". Pāli only shows birth causes "aging &amp; death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress &amp; despair to come into play".</p>

<p>In the other hand by pāli context, the sequence of paṭiccasamuppāda is "birth >> aging&amp;death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress &amp; despair to come into play". It is not "birth >> aging >> death >> sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress &amp; despair to come into play". </p>

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2018-12-09T08:48:58.310Z
@TheDBSGuy In pāli context, the sequence of paṭiccasamuppāda is "birth >> aging&death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play". It is not "birth >> aging >> death >> sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play".
Bonn
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2018-12-09T12:03:11.103Z
Correct. Birth is a requisite condition for ageing, death, sorrow, despair, grief. Death is not a requisite condition for these.
ruben2020
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2018-12-09T07:40:26.637Z
2018-12-09T08:51:14.190Z
2018-12-09T08:51:14.190Z
Bonn
<p>A translation of SN 12.2 says: </p>

<blockquote>
  <p><em>And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite
  condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite
  condition comes name-&amp;-form. From name-&amp;-form as a requisite condition
  come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite
  condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes
  feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From
  craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From
  clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From
  becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a
  requisite condition, then aging &amp; death, <strong>sorrow, lamentation, pain,
  distress &amp; despair</strong> come into play. Such is the origination of this
  entire mass of stress &amp; suffering.</em></p>
</blockquote>

<p>The impression of the above text is - for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress &amp; despair to come into play - aging &amp; death must occur. </p>

<p>I have two questions: </p>

<ol>
<li><p>If death must occur for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress &amp; despair to come into play; what is the cause for people having sorrow, grief &amp; despair before death, i.e., in the present moment? </p></li>
<li><p>If death must occur for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress &amp; despair to come into play; is sorrow, grief &amp; despair only experienced after death? </p></li>
</ol>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-12-09T13:52:58.627Z
Isn't the question focusing on the metaphysical aspect and ignoring the soteriological value of the text? The questions only make sense if you think that birth and death have independent and temporal existence. If you interpret the text as a mental process, the questions become less significant.
user29568
CC BY-SA 4.0
2018-12-10T10:56:19.573Z
Sorry but your comment is incomprehensible; particularity unsatisfactoriness. MN 141 defines what sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair are. The quote says aging, death, sorrow arise together. Best you write an answer rather than make comments. The comments section is not for answers. Thanks
Dhamma Dhatu
<pali-canon>
Is suffering dependent on aging & death? If so, how is suffering experienced before & after death?
# Is suffering dependent on aging & death? If so, how is suffering experienced before & after death?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2018-12-09)

A translation of SN 12.2 says:

> *And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite
> condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite
> condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition
> come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite
> condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes
> feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From
> craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From
> clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From
> becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a
> requisite condition, then aging & death, **sorrow, lamentation, pain,
> distress & despair** come into play. Such is the origination of this
> entire mass of stress & suffering.*

The impression of the above text is - for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play - aging & death must occur.

I have two questions:

1. If death must occur for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play; what is the cause for people having sorrow, grief & despair before death, i.e., in the present moment?
2. If death must occur for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play; is sorrow, grief & despair only experienced after death?

**Tags:** pali-canon

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: Isn't the question focusing on the metaphysical aspect and ignoring the soteriological value of the text? The questions only make sense if you think that birth and death have independent and temporal existence. If you interpret the text as a mental process, the questions become less significant.  
> **username_0**: Sorry but your comment is incomprehensible; particularity unsatisfactoriness. MN 141 defines what sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair are. The quote says aging, death, sorrow arise together. Best you write an answer rather than make comments. The comments section is not for answers. Thanks  

---

## 3 answers

### Answer by username_3 on 2018-12-09. Score: 3

> If death must occur for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair
> to come into play; what is the cause for people having sorrow, grief &
> despair before death, i.e., in the present moment?
>
> If death must occur for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair
> to come into play; is sorrow, grief & despair only experienced after
> death?

Aging & death must come together to show "if you born without
unstable, it's ok. But actually, your life is unstable because it's
going to be aging & death, it's not ok. Because while you are living, birth+aging+death, you are going to have sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play aging & death."

[Pali context](http://84000.org/tipitaka/read/roman_item_s.php?book=16&item=4&items=15&h=j%C4%81tipaccay%C4%81%20%20%20%20%20jar%C4%81mara%E1%B9%87a%E1%B9%83%20%20%20%20%20sokaparidevadukkhadomanassup%C4%81y%C4%81s%C4%81) only shows birth causes "aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play". Nothing in pāli context shows aging & death cause "sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play".

> jāti**paccayā** jarāmar**aṇaṃ** sokaparidevadukkhadomanassupāyā**sā** sambhavanti.

So, your both questions are misunderstood pali context. There is nothing in pali context shows "death must occur for sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play". Pāli only shows birth causes "aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play".

In the other hand by pāli context, the sequence of paṭiccasamuppāda is "birth >> aging&death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play". It is not "birth >> aging >> death >> sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play".

> **Comments:**
> **username_3**: @TheDBSGuy In pāli context, the sequence of paṭiccasamuppāda is "birth >> aging&death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play". It is not "birth >> aging >> death >> sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress & despair to come into play".  
> **username_4**: Correct. Birth is a requisite condition for ageing, death, sorrow, despair, grief. Death is not a requisite condition for these.  

---

### Answer by username_2 on 2018-12-09. Score: 0

In my Mahayana interpretation, from birth comes "this entire pile of dukkha" such as: aging, sickness, death, separation from dear, meeting with undesired, sorrow, lamentation and so on and so forth. The list in the sutta is clearly supposed to be enumerating standard examples of dukkha from 1st noble truth. In Mahayana we often read such passages not literally but as casual colloquial idiomatic approximations.

When a text is interpreted in Mahayana style, we tend to pay attention to the implied meaning and the overall message more than to the details. So in this case we would understand this passage as saying "with birth as condition there come all kinds of dukkha" and treat the examples as pointers intended to outline the category, rather than as important on their own.


---

### Answer by username_0 on 2018-12-09. Score: -2

I think these riddles might be solves by examining teachings about sorrow.

[SN 22.1](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.001.than.html) says sorrow only occurs when there is conceiving ideas of "self", as follows:

> *He is seized with the idea that 'I am consciousness' or
> 'Consciousness is mine.' As he is seized with these ideas, his
> consciousness changes & alters, and he falls into sorrow, lamentation,
> pain, distress, & despair over its change & alteration.*
>
> *He is not seized with the idea that 'I am consciousness' or 'Consciousness is mine.' As he is not seized with these ideas, his
> consciousness changes & alters, but he does not fall into sorrow,
> lamentation, pain, distress, or despair over its change & alteration.*

The Piyavagga says where there is no love, there is no sorrow:

> *210. Seek no intimacy with the beloved and also not with the unloved, for not to see the beloved and to see the unloved, both are painful.*
>
> *211. Therefore hold nothing dear, for separation from the dear is painful. There are no bonds for those who have nothing beloved or
> unloved.*
>
> *212. From endearment springs grief, from endearment springs fear. For one who is wholly free from endearment there is no grief, whence then
> fear?*

Similarly, many suttas say sorrow occurs due to loss of loved relatives, as follows:

> *Now at that time a certain householder's dear & beloved little son, his only child, had died. Because of his death, the father had no
> desire to work or to eat. He kept going to the cemetery and crying
> out, "Where have you gone, my only little child? Where have you gone,
> my only little child?" Then he went to the Blessed One, who said:
> "That's the way it is, householder. That's the way it is — for sorrow,
> lamentation, pain, distress, & despair are born from one who is dear,
> come springing from one who is dear." MN 87*
>
> *Long have you (repeatedly) experienced the death of a mother. The tears you have shed over the death of a mother... the death of a
> father... the death of a brother... the death of a sister... the death
> of a son... the death of a daughter... loss with regard to
> relatives... loss with regard to wealth... loss with regard to
> disease. SN 15.3*

In MN 26, relatives are called "acquisitions" (upadhi), i.e., things attached to with infatuation, as follows:

> *And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl &
> pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are
> subject to birth. Subject to birth are these acquisitions, and one who
> is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for
> them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth.
> MN 26*

SN 12.66 says "acquisitions" give birth to "death", as follows:

> *The many diverse kinds of suffering that arise in the world headed by aging-and-death: this suffering has acquisition as its source,
> acquisition as its origin; it is born and produced from acquisition.
> When there is acquisition, aging-and-death comes to be; when there is
> no acquisition, aging-and-death does not come to be.*

Therefore, it seems sorrow arises from the death of what is loved; and what is called "birth" is based on "acquisitions" of things regarded as "self".

> *And what may be said to be subject to birth? Spouses & children are subject to birth. Men & women slaves... goats & sheep... fowl &
> pigs... elephants, cattle, horses, & mares... gold & silver are
> subject to birth. **Subject to birth are these acquisitions**, and one who
> is tied to them, infatuated with them, who has totally fallen for
> them, being subject to birth, seeks what is likewise subject to birth.
> MN 26*

In summary, "birth" appears to be the production of ideas of "persons" or "beings" from mere aggregates and when the aggregates change & alter (per SN 22.1), sorrow occurs.


---

