<p>Ven. Sujato translates it, "a person in training" (which makes sense in the context).</p>

<p>The word in question is <a href="https://suttacentral.net/define/purisadamma" rel="nofollow noreferrer">purisadamma</a>.</p>

<p>Piya Tan <a href="http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/52.3-Kesi-S-a4.111-piya.pdf" rel="nofollow noreferrer">explains it here</a> as follows:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p><strong>1.3.3.2 What is <em>purisa</em>?</strong> The usual translation for <strong><em>purisa</em></strong> is “person,” usually a “man.” And the usual
  word for “individual” is <em>purisa</em>,<em>puggala</em> or simply <em>puggala</em>, as if famously used in reference to “the pairs of
  persons, the 8 individuals” (<em>purisa,yugāni aṭṭha,purisa.puggalā</em>) in the recollection of the noble community (<em>saṅghânussati</em>).</p>
  
  <p>Here, <em>purisa</em> refers to a “person,” which loosely refers to a being with some capacity for thought and
  will (in the sense of personal action).</p>
  
  <p>The Buddha has tamed animal persons (<em>tiracchāna,purisa</em>), such as the <em>naga-rajah Apalāla, Cūḷodara, Mahodara, Aggi,sikha, Dhūma,sikha</em>, the <em>naga-rajah Āravāla</em>, and the elephant <em>Dhana,pālaka</em>.</p>
  
  <p>He has tamed human persons (<em>manussa,purisa</em>), such as the young <em>nirgrantha Saccaka</em>, the brahmin
  youth <em>Ambaṭṭha, Pokkhara,sāti, Soṇa,daṇa</em>, and <em>Kūṭa,danta</em>.</p>
  
  <p>He has tamed non-human persons (<em>amanussa,purisa</em>), such as the <em>yakshas Āḷavaka, Sūci,loma</em> and
  <em>Khara,loma</em>, and <em>Sakra</em>, the lord of the devas.</p>
  
  <p><strong>1.3.3.3 What is <em>damma</em>?</strong> The word <strong><em>damma</em></strong> (Skt <em>damya</em>)
  is an adjective, the gerundive of <em>dameti</em>
  (causative: Skt <em>dāmyati</em>), “to bring into the house, to domesticate; to tame, convert; to be restrained;
  especially with reference to tamable animals; figuratively, to humans to be tamed or converted.” Technically, <em>damma</em> means “to be tamed, or should be tamed,” but the context here clearly refers to the
  capacity or readiness of a being or person for taming—hence, “tamable.”</p>
  
  <p><strong>“Tamable persons”</strong> (<em>purisa,damma</em>), that is, those to be trained, according to the Sutta are of 4 kinds:<br>
  (1) those who are trained with gentleness; [1.3.4.1]<br>
  (2) those who are trained with harshness; [1.3.4.2]<br>
  (3) those who are trained both ways (with gentleness and with harshness); [1.3.4.3] and<br>
  (4) those who cannot be trained at all: the untamable. [1.3.5]</p>
</blockquote>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-04-04T21:23:25.997Z
Thanks, that was quick :) just as an afterthought, that Piya Tan format of suttas, is there a suttacentral style repository for the lot of them one can hit up?
Ilya Grushevskiy
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-04-04T21:31:46.823Z
Yes look at the bottom of the right-hand column of http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/ -- for example the link to AN 4.111 is on http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/sutta-titles-2/anguttara-nikaya -- unfortunately the link there i.e. http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/15.7-Buddhanussati-piya.pdf is often out of date ("Page not found") -- so to find it then I use a Google search of the site, like https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awww.themindingcentre.org+kesi+sutta
ChrisW
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-04-04T21:04:32.990Z
2020-04-04T21:04:32.990Z
ChrisW
<blockquote>
  <p>"It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take life.
  But if <strong>a tamable person</strong> doesn't submit either to a mild training or to
  a harsh training or to a mild &amp; harsh training, then the Tathagata
  doesn't regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His
  knowledgeable fellows in the holy life don't regard him as being worth
  speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be totally
  destroyed in the Doctrine &amp; Discipline, when the Tathagata doesn't
  regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's
  knowledgeable fellows in the holy life don't regard one as being worth
  speaking to or admonishing."</p>
</blockquote>

<p><a href="https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.111.than.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">AN 4.111</a></p>

<p>Just so, is this subtle language? What then is an untamable person? Is it a being like an animal, who does not have access to Dhamma, or is it a being who has access to it, but disregards it out of hand, or something in between!?</p>

<theravada>
Kesi Sutta, what is an untamable person?
# Kesi Sutta, what is an untamable person?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2020-04-04)

> "It is true, Kesi, that it's not proper for a Tathagata to take life.
> But if **a tamable person** doesn't submit either to a mild training or to
> a harsh training or to a mild & harsh training, then the Tathagata
> doesn't regard him as being worth speaking to or admonishing. His
> knowledgeable fellows in the holy life don't regard him as being worth
> speaking to or admonishing. This is what it means to be totally
> destroyed in the Doctrine & Discipline, when the Tathagata doesn't
> regard one as being worth speaking to or admonishing, and one's
> knowledgeable fellows in the holy life don't regard one as being worth
> speaking to or admonishing."

[AN 4.111](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.111.than.html)

Just so, is this subtle language? What then is an untamable person? Is it a being like an animal, who does not have access to Dhamma, or is it a being who has access to it, but disregards it out of hand, or something in between!?

**Tags:** theravada


---

## 1 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2020-04-04. Score: 1 | Accepted answer

Ven. Sujato translates it, "a person in training" (which makes sense in the context).

The word in question is [purisadamma](https://suttacentral.net/define/purisadamma).

Piya Tan [explains it here](http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/52.3-Kesi-S-a4.111-piya.pdf) as follows:

> **1.3.3.2 What is *purisa*?** The usual translation for ***purisa*** is “person,” usually a “man.” And the usual
> word for “individual” is *purisa*,*puggala* or simply *puggala*, as if famously used in reference to “the pairs of
> persons, the 8 individuals” (*purisa,yugāni aṭṭha,purisa.puggalā*) in the recollection of the noble community (*saṅghânussati*).
>
> Here, *purisa* refers to a “person,” which loosely refers to a being with some capacity for thought and
> will (in the sense of personal action).
>
> The Buddha has tamed animal persons (*tiracchāna,purisa*), such as the *naga-rajah Apalāla, Cūḷodara, Mahodara, Aggi,sikha, Dhūma,sikha*, the *naga-rajah Āravāla*, and the elephant *Dhana,pālaka*.
>
> He has tamed human persons (*manussa,purisa*), such as the young *nirgrantha Saccaka*, the brahmin
> youth *Ambaṭṭha, Pokkhara,sāti, Soṇa,daṇa*, and *Kūṭa,danta*.
>
> He has tamed non-human persons (*amanussa,purisa*), such as the *yakshas Āḷavaka, Sūci,loma* and
> *Khara,loma*, and *Sakra*, the lord of the devas.
>
> **1.3.3.3 What is *damma*?** The word ***damma*** (Skt *damya*)
> is an adjective, the gerundive of *dameti*
> (causative: Skt *dāmyati*), “to bring into the house, to domesticate; to tame, convert; to be restrained;
> especially with reference to tamable animals; figuratively, to humans to be tamed or converted.” Technically, *damma* means “to be tamed, or should be tamed,” but the context here clearly refers to the
> capacity or readiness of a being or person for taming—hence, “tamable.”
>
> **“Tamable persons”** (*purisa,damma*), that is, those to be trained, according to the Sutta are of 4 kinds:  
> (1) those who are trained with gentleness; [1.3.4.1]  
> (2) those who are trained with harshness; [1.3.4.2]  
> (3) those who are trained both ways (with gentleness and with harshness); [1.3.4.3] and  
> (4) those who cannot be trained at all: the untamable. [1.3.5]

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Thanks, that was quick :) just as an afterthought, that Piya Tan format of suttas, is there a suttacentral style repository for the lot of them one can hit up?  
> **username_1**: Yes look at the bottom of the right-hand column of http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/ -- for example the link to AN 4.111 is on http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/sutta-titles-2/anguttara-nikaya -- unfortunately the link there i.e. http://www.themindingcentre.org/dharmafarer/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/15.7-Buddhanussati-piya.pdf is often out of date ("Page not found") -- so to find it then I use a Google search of the site, like https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Awww.themindingcentre.org+kesi+sutta  

---

