<p>This is just an elaboration of D.O. Everything is clear and makes sense.</p>

<p>Delineation of feeling depends on the notion of contact. </p>

<p>Delineation of contact depends on separating totality into "internal" and "external".</p>

<p>Six sense doors are the subjective boundary across which the contact is made. </p>

<p>On this side of the boundary are upadana-skandhas - stuff we appropriate as I/mine.</p>

<p>On the other side of the boundary are the namarupas, the mind-made delineated entities that we designate as "external".</p>

<p>In each pair of DO, it's always a notion and its counterpart serving as foundation. </p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-03-19T11:26:38.800Z
2019-03-19T11:26:38.800Z
Andriy Volkov
<p>The introduction of <a href="https://thaipitaka.gitlab.io/engtipitaka/metta.lk/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/Samyutta2/12-Abhisamaya-Samyutta/02-Aharavaggo-e.html?h=12.%202.%209.,the%20fool,the%20wise#hl" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Balapandita Sutta</a> (SN 12.19) is about person, the foolish and the astute, but the dependent origination is about five aggregates cycle, so the Buddha has to transform the person to be five aggregates for driving the cycle of aggregates in the depedent origination <strong>because there is no person in the dependent origination</strong>.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>So there is the duality of this foolish body (<strong>person</strong> which referring to internal sense-field aggregates) and external name and form (<strong>aggregates</strong> which referring to external sense-field aggregates). Contact depends on this duality (<strong>those both internal and external sense-fields</strong>). When contacted through one or other of the six sense fields, the fool experiences pleasure and pain.</p>
<p>Iti ayañceva (bālo) kāyo (puggalo, paññatti) bahiddhā ca nāmarūpaṃ (khandho, paramattha), itthetaṃ dvayaṃ (ajjhatta&amp;bahidhā-āyatanāni), dvayaṃ paṭicca phasso saḷevāyatanāni, yehi phuṭṭho bālo sukhadukkhaṃ paṭisaṃvedayati etesaṃ vā aññatarena.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>You can use above explanation in various sutta depend on its context such as in <a href="http://www.84000.org/tipitaka/pitaka_item/roman_read.php?B=10&amp;A=6842&amp;eng=buddhavacana" rel="nofollow noreferrer">DN22</a> MahasatipaṭṭhānaSutta:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>ajjhatta-bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati</p>
<p>he dwells observing kāya in kāya internally and externally</p>
</blockquote>
<p>The first kāya refers to a collection of 28 forms (the second kāya). Internal kaya is the practitioner's kāya and external kāya is the other's kāya.</p>
<p>See their Atthakathā for more information.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-04-19T12:20:38.053Z
2019-04-19T12:26:17.853Z
2020-06-17T09:56:10.877Z
Bonn
<ol>
<li>"Sukhadukkhaṃ paṭisaṃvedayati" means "experience happiness &amp; suffering" rather than "pleasant &amp; painful feelings" (similar to how these words are used in <a href="https://suttacentral.net/mn149/en/sujato" rel="nofollow noreferrer">MN 149</a>), as follows:</li>
</ol>

<blockquote>
  <p><em>And they experience physical and mental suffering. So kāyadukkhampi cetodukkhampi paṭisaṃvedeti</em></p>
  
  <p><em>And they experience physical and mental pleasure. So kāyasukhampi cetosukhampi paṭisaṃvedeti.</em></p>
</blockquote>

<ol start="2">
<li><p>"Kaya" means "collection" or "group" of five aggregates rather than "(physical) body".  </p></li>
<li><p>There is no such thing as "external name-and-form" that together with a "kaya" creates contact. For example, "naming" is an internal process therefore external names (within the minds of others) cannot produce sense contact. </p></li>
<li><p>"Nama-rupa" here means "external minds &amp; bodies". Thus with this internal collection ("kaya") of five aggregates plus external minds &amp; bodies  ("bahiddhā namarupa") there arises sense contacts that lead to producing (samudāgato) happiness &amp; suffering. </p></li>
<li><p>For example, this internal collection ("kaya") of five aggregates has sense contact with an angry mind &amp; body (nama-rupa) externally. Hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this internal collection of five aggregates ("kaya") creates the idea from the external mind &amp; body of "my enemy"; thus generating suffering. </p></li>
<li><p>In summary, the beginning of SN 12.19 should be regarded the same as the following verse from SN 12.81:</p></li>
</ol>

<blockquote>
  <p>At Sāvatthī. Then Venerable Rāhula went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat
  down to one side, and said to him: “Sir, how does one know and see so
  that there’s no ego, possessiveness, or underlying tendency to conceit
  for this conscious body and all external stimuli?” “Rāhula, one truly
  sees any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or
  external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: all
  form—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this
  is not my self.’ One truly sees any kind of feeling … perception …
  choices … consciousness at all—past, future, or present; internal or
  external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: all
  consciousness—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not
  this, this is not my self.’ That’s how to know and see so that there’s
  no ego, possessiveness, or underlying tendency to conceit for this
  conscious body and all external stimuli.”</p>
</blockquote>

<p>External nama-rupa is external stimuli. However, there is no such thing as an "external name" that can be a stimuli. This is why the Pali term "nama" means "mind". External minds can be perceived and produced into suffering but external "names" cannot be perceived (unless they are spoken as words). </p>

<p>"Nama-rupa" comes from Brahmanism. The Buddha took this term and redefined it so it accords with suffering &amp; the cessation of suffering (rather than according with the creationist philosophy of Brahmanism of 'naming-forms'). </p>

<p>When ignorance &amp; sankhara arise, they subject the mind-body to tension; just like an addiction causes the mind &amp; body to seek out external sense contacts of sense gratification. Every translator that translates "nama-rupa" as "name-form" is wrong. Believe it or not! </p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-02-16T06:41:21.557Z
Do you have any references to prove this? "*"Kaya" means "collection" or "group" of five aggregates rather than "(physical) body"*"
ruben2020
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-02-16T07:00:19.010Z
Nikaya. Sakkaya.
Dhamma Dhatu
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-02-17T05:51:10.083Z
The term "kaya" is also used for the physical body in the suttas. See [SN 22.56](https://suttacentral.net/sn22.56/en/sujato): "*eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind consciousness. / cakkhuviññāṇaṃ, sotaviññāṇaṃ, ghānaviññāṇaṃ, jivhāviññāṇaṃ, **kāyaviññāṇaṃ**, manoviññāṇaṃ.*"
ruben2020
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-02-17T13:11:53.283Z
@Dhammadhatu Hi! This might not be completely related to the topic in question, but you cannot make assumptions just by looking the roots of the words.' 'Atoms', for instance, are definitely not undividable particles (A=without; temnein=to cut), despite his etimological root; and 'sarcophagi' is not the same as 'carnivorous' (sark=carn=flesh; phagos=vorus=eating). Some words keep their historical root, even when in the future that word could change its original meaning and mean something not directly related. Not all magnets are made from magnetite. Kind regards!
Brian Díaz Flores
CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-02-16T05:06:28.690Z
2019-02-16T05:26:33.090Z
2019-02-16T05:26:33.090Z
Dhamma Dhatu
<p>When there is a stand, a body (in sense of compound, not physical, see DD's answer in this regard), not-knowing, there is a surface, hence "duality".</p>

<p>By absence, having uprooted not-knowing, not dwelling on another stand, there is what goes beyond able to trace and discriminate. Others then the Nihilists idea, there "is" something beyond the six senses.</p>

<p><em>dvaya</em> is just another word for <em>avijja</em>, not-knowing. Althought many try to trace something special, the Buddha used different words to serve different inclinatiins of different people.</p>

<p><em>[This answer is not given as means of trade, exchange, for Buddh-ism or other low wordily bonds but for liberations purpose]</em></p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-02-16T05:03:57.923Z
2019-02-16T05:15:03.683Z
2019-02-16T05:15:03.683Z
Samana Johann
<p>What is the duality of body and external name-and-form?</p>

<p>What is the difference between the two? What is the relationship between the two?</p>

<p>From the <a href="https://suttacentral.net/sn12.19/en/sujato" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Balapandita Sutta (SN 12.19)</a> (translated by Bhikkhu Sujato):</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>“Mendicants, for a fool hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving,
  this body has been produced.</p>
  
  <p><em>“Avijjānīvaraṇassa, bhikkhave, bālassa taṇhāya sampayuttassa evamayaṃ
  kāyo samudāgato.</em></p>
  
  <p>So there is the duality of this body and external name and form.
  Contact depends on this duality. When contacted through one or other
  of the six sense fields, the fool experiences pleasure and pain.</p>
  
  <p><em>Iti ayañceva kāyo bahiddhā ca nāmarūpaṃ, itthetaṃ dvayaṃ, dvayaṃ
  paṭicca phasso saḷevāyatanāni, yehi phuṭṭho bālo sukhadukkhaṃ
  paṭisaṃvedayati etesaṃ vā aññatarena.</em></p>
</blockquote>

<p>The same excerpt translated <a href="https://suttacentral.net/sn12.19/en/bodhi" rel="nofollow noreferrer">here</a> by Bhikkhu Bodhi:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>“Bhikkhus, for the fool, hindered by ignorance and fettered by
  craving, this body has thereby originated. So there is this body and
  external name-and-form: thus this dyad. Dependent on the dyad there is
  contact. There are just six sense bases, contacted through which—or
  through a certain one among them—the fool experiences pleasure and
  pain.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Also, as reference, from <a href="https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/bodhi" rel="nofollow noreferrer">SN 12.2</a> (trans. Bodhi):</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>“And what, bhikkhus, is name-and-form? Feeling, perception, volition,
  contact, attention: this is called name. The four great elements and
  the form derived from the four great elements: this is called form.
  Thus this name and this form are together called name-and-form.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Also, please note that the term "kāya" has been used in the sense of physical body for example in <a href="https://suttacentral.net/sn22.56/en/sujato" rel="nofollow noreferrer">SN 22.56</a> (although I know that it can be used to mean group or collection, when combined with other things):</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind consciousness.<br>
  <em>cakkhuviññāṇaṃ, sotaviññāṇaṃ,ghānaviññāṇaṃ, jivhāviññāṇaṃ,
  <strong>kāyaviññāṇaṃ</strong>, manoviññāṇaṃ.</em></p>
</blockquote>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2019-04-19T14:17:40.027Z
The word duality is probably not a great translation in this context, as it has specific connotations of opposition or contrast which I don't think are meant by the simple "dvayam"
yuttadhammo
<pratityasamutpada>
What is the duality of body and external name-and-form?
# What is the duality of body and external name-and-form?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2019-02-16)

What is the duality of body and external name-and-form?

What is the difference between the two? What is the relationship between the two?

From the [Balapandita Sutta (SN 12.19)](https://suttacentral.net/sn12.19/en/sujato) (translated by Bhikkhu Sujato):

> “Mendicants, for a fool hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving,
> this body has been produced.
>
> *“Avijjānīvaraṇassa, bhikkhave, bālassa taṇhāya sampayuttassa evamayaṃ
> kāyo samudāgato.*
>
> So there is the duality of this body and external name and form.
> Contact depends on this duality. When contacted through one or other
> of the six sense fields, the fool experiences pleasure and pain.
>
> *Iti ayañceva kāyo bahiddhā ca nāmarūpaṃ, itthetaṃ dvayaṃ, dvayaṃ
> paṭicca phasso saḷevāyatanāni, yehi phuṭṭho bālo sukhadukkhaṃ
> paṭisaṃvedayati etesaṃ vā aññatarena.*

The same excerpt translated [here](https://suttacentral.net/sn12.19/en/bodhi) by Bhikkhu Bodhi:

> “Bhikkhus, for the fool, hindered by ignorance and fettered by
> craving, this body has thereby originated. So there is this body and
> external name-and-form: thus this dyad. Dependent on the dyad there is
> contact. There are just six sense bases, contacted through which—or
> through a certain one among them—the fool experiences pleasure and
> pain.

Also, as reference, from [SN 12.2](https://suttacentral.net/sn12.2/en/bodhi) (trans. Bodhi):

> “And what, bhikkhus, is name-and-form? Feeling, perception, volition,
> contact, attention: this is called name. The four great elements and
> the form derived from the four great elements: this is called form.
> Thus this name and this form are together called name-and-form.

Also, please note that the term "kāya" has been used in the sense of physical body for example in [SN 22.56](https://suttacentral.net/sn22.56/en/sujato) (although I know that it can be used to mean group or collection, when combined with other things):

> eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind consciousness.  
> *cakkhuviññāṇaṃ, sotaviññāṇaṃ,ghānaviññāṇaṃ, jivhāviññāṇaṃ,
> **kāyaviññāṇaṃ**, manoviññāṇaṃ.*

**Tags:** pratityasamutpada

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: The word duality is probably not a great translation in this context, as it has specific connotations of opposition or contrast which I don't think are meant by the simple "dvayam"  

---

## 4 answers

### Answer by username_2 on 2019-03-19. Score: 2

This is just an elaboration of D.O. Everything is clear and makes sense.

Delineation of feeling depends on the notion of contact.

Delineation of contact depends on separating totality into "internal" and "external".

Six sense doors are the subjective boundary across which the contact is made.

On this side of the boundary are upadana-skandhas - stuff we appropriate as I/mine.

On the other side of the boundary are the namarupas, the mind-made delineated entities that we designate as "external".

In each pair of DO, it's always a notion and its counterpart serving as foundation.


---

### Answer by username_3 on 2019-04-19. Score: 0

The introduction of [Balapandita Sutta](https://thaipitaka.gitlab.io/engtipitaka/metta.lk/2Sutta-Pitaka/3Samyutta-Nikaya/Samyutta2/12-Abhisamaya-Samyutta/02-Aharavaggo-e.html?h=12.%202.%209.,the%20fool,the%20wise#hl) (SN 12.19) is about person, the foolish and the astute, but the dependent origination is about five aggregates cycle, so the Buddha has to transform the person to be five aggregates for driving the cycle of aggregates in the depedent origination **because there is no person in the dependent origination**.

> So there is the duality of this foolish body (**person** which referring to internal sense-field aggregates) and external name and form (**aggregates** which referring to external sense-field aggregates). Contact depends on this duality (**those both internal and external sense-fields**). When contacted through one or other of the six sense fields, the fool experiences pleasure and pain.
>
> Iti ayañceva (bālo) kāyo (puggalo, paññatti) bahiddhā ca nāmarūpaṃ (khandho, paramattha), itthetaṃ dvayaṃ (ajjhatta&bahidhā-āyatanāni), dvayaṃ paṭicca phasso saḷevāyatanāni, yehi phuṭṭho bālo sukhadukkhaṃ paṭisaṃvedayati etesaṃ vā aññatarena.

You can use above explanation in various sutta depend on its context such as in [DN22](http://www.84000.org/tipitaka/pitaka_item/roman_read.php?B=10&A=6842&eng=buddhavacana) MahasatipaṭṭhānaSutta:

> ajjhatta-bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati
>
> he dwells observing kāya in kāya internally and externally

The first kāya refers to a collection of 28 forms (the second kāya). Internal kaya is the practitioner's kāya and external kāya is the other's kāya.

See their Atthakathā for more information.


---

### Answer by username_4 on 2019-02-16. Score: 0

1. "Sukhadukkhaṃ paṭisaṃvedayati" means "experience happiness & suffering" rather than "pleasant & painful feelings" (similar to how these words are used in [MN 149](https://suttacentral.net/mn149/en/sujato)), as follows:

> *And they experience physical and mental suffering. So kāyadukkhampi cetodukkhampi paṭisaṃvedeti*
>
> *And they experience physical and mental pleasure. So kāyasukhampi cetosukhampi paṭisaṃvedeti.*

2. "Kaya" means "collection" or "group" of five aggregates rather than "(physical) body".
3. There is no such thing as "external name-and-form" that together with a "kaya" creates contact. For example, "naming" is an internal process therefore external names (within the minds of others) cannot produce sense contact.
4. "Nama-rupa" here means "external minds & bodies". Thus with this internal collection ("kaya") of five aggregates plus external minds & bodies ("bahiddhā namarupa") there arises sense contacts that lead to producing (samudāgato) happiness & suffering.
5. For example, this internal collection ("kaya") of five aggregates has sense contact with an angry mind & body (nama-rupa) externally. Hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving, this internal collection of five aggregates ("kaya") creates the idea from the external mind & body of "my enemy"; thus generating suffering.
6. In summary, the beginning of SN 12.19 should be regarded the same as the following verse from SN 12.81:

> At Sāvatthī. Then Venerable Rāhula went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat
> down to one side, and said to him: “Sir, how does one know and see so
> that there’s no ego, possessiveness, or underlying tendency to conceit
> for this conscious body and all external stimuli?” “Rāhula, one truly
> sees any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or
> external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: all
> form—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not this, this
> is not my self.’ One truly sees any kind of feeling … perception …
> choices … consciousness at all—past, future, or present; internal or
> external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: all
> consciousness—with right understanding: ‘This is not mine, I am not
> this, this is not my self.’ That’s how to know and see so that there’s
> no ego, possessiveness, or underlying tendency to conceit for this
> conscious body and all external stimuli.”

External nama-rupa is external stimuli. However, there is no such thing as an "external name" that can be a stimuli. This is why the Pali term "nama" means "mind". External minds can be perceived and produced into suffering but external "names" cannot be perceived (unless they are spoken as words).

"Nama-rupa" comes from Brahmanism. The Buddha took this term and redefined it so it accords with suffering & the cessation of suffering (rather than according with the creationist philosophy of Brahmanism of 'naming-forms').

When ignorance & sankhara arise, they subject the mind-body to tension; just like an addiction causes the mind & body to seek out external sense contacts of sense gratification. Every translator that translates "nama-rupa" as "name-form" is wrong. Believe it or not!

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Do you have any references to prove this? "*"Kaya" means "collection" or "group" of five aggregates rather than "(physical) body"*"  
> **username_4**: Nikaya. Sakkaya.  
> **username_0**: The term "kaya" is also used for the physical body in the suttas. See [SN 22.56](https://suttacentral.net/sn22.56/en/sujato): "*eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind consciousness. / cakkhuviññāṇaṃ, sotaviññāṇaṃ, ghānaviññāṇaṃ, jivhāviññāṇaṃ, **kāyaviññāṇaṃ**, manoviññāṇaṃ.*"  
> **username_5**: @Dhammadhatu Hi! This might not be completely related to the topic in question, but you cannot make assumptions just by looking the roots of the words.' 'Atoms', for instance, are definitely not undividable particles (A=without; temnein=to cut), despite his etimological root; and 'sarcophagi' is not the same as 'carnivorous' (sark=carn=flesh; phagos=vorus=eating). Some words keep their historical root, even when in the future that word could change its original meaning and mean something not directly related. Not all magnets are made from magnetite. Kind regards!  

---

### Answer by username_6 on 2019-02-16. Score: -1

When there is a stand, a body (in sense of compound, not physical, see DD's answer in this regard), not-knowing, there is a surface, hence "duality".

By absence, having uprooted not-knowing, not dwelling on another stand, there is what goes beyond able to trace and discriminate. Others then the Nihilists idea, there "is" something beyond the six senses.

*dvaya* is just another word for *avijja*, not-knowing. Althought many try to trace something special, the Buddha used different words to serve different inclinatiins of different people.

*[This answer is not given as means of trade, exchange, for Buddh-ism or other low wordily bonds but for liberations purpose]*


---

