<p>Notably, a senior layperson once dragged a junior fellow layperson by the hair to see a Buddha:</p>
<blockquote>
<p><a href="https://suttacentral.net/mn81/en/sujato#mn81:9.1" rel="nofollow noreferrer">MN81:9.1</a>: Then Ghaṭīkāra grabbed Jotipāla by the hair of his freshly-washed head and said,<br />
<a href="https://suttacentral.net/mn81/en/sujato#mn81:9.2" rel="nofollow noreferrer">MN81:9.2</a>: ‘Dear Jotipāla, the Buddha Kassapa’s monastery is not far away.<br />
<a href="https://suttacentral.net/mn81/en/sujato#mn81:9.3" rel="nofollow noreferrer">MN81:9.3</a>: Let’s go to see the Blessed One Kassapa, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha.<br />
<a href="https://suttacentral.net/mn81/en/sujato#mn81:9.4" rel="nofollow noreferrer">MN81:9.4</a>: For I regard it as holy to see that Blessed One.’</p>
</blockquote>
<p>The senior layperson was Ghaṭīkāra. The junior layperson Jotipāla. It's quite the compelling ant-anti-monasticism sutta.  Here Ghaṭīkāra wishes Jotipāla to see the Buddha Kassapa. And Jotipāla stubbornly refuses in the most obnoxious anti-monastic way:</p>
<blockquote>
<p><a href="https://suttacentral.net/mn81/en/sujato#mn81:6.7" rel="nofollow noreferrer">MN81:6.7</a>: ‘Enough, dear Ghaṭīkāra.<br />
<a href="https://suttacentral.net/mn81/en/sujato#mn81:6.8" rel="nofollow noreferrer">MN81:6.8</a>: What’s the use of seeing that baldy, that fake ascetic?’</p>
</blockquote>
<p>But Ghaṭīkāra prevailed and they went to see the Buddha Kassapa. Inspired by that meeting, Jotipāla went forth.</p>
<blockquote>
<p><a href="https://suttacentral.net/mn81/en/sujato#mn81:12.4" rel="nofollow noreferrer">MN81:12.4</a>: And Jotipāla the brahmin student received the going forth, the ordination in the Buddha’s presence.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Ghaṭīkāra here takes the anti-anti-monastic role as a layperson. But Ghaṭīkāra is a special layperson, since he is also Buddha Kassapa's chief attendant in this sutta.</p>
<p>If you're interested, the sutta also explains why Ghaṭīkāra himself did not go forth. And Jotipāla? Jotipāla was eventually reborn as Gautama Buddha.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-05-07T17:28:03.287Z
2021-05-07T17:28:03.287Z
OyaMist
<p>You can find some anti-monasticism stories and anti-anti-monasticism rebuttals in the following suttas. But I would say that anti-anti-monasticism arguments and for-monasticism arguments are more-or-less the same.</p>
<p>Please see <a href="https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.08.than.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Ud 1.8</a>, <a href="https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.082.than.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">MN 82</a>, <a href="https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/thig/thig.14.01.than.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Thig 14.1</a>.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-10-28T06:45:35.787Z
Ud 1.8 and MN. 82 do not address arguments against monasticism insofar as they are arguments against worldly attachments. Thig 14.1 is closer to what I am looking for, thank you.
Lucky
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-05-07T03:21:52.847Z
2021-05-07T03:21:52.847Z
ruben2020
<p>It is commonly asserted that Buddhism advocates for monasticism as an ethical ideal for at least some of humanity. I am interested not in arguments for monasticism full stop, but arguments from a Buddhist perspective that are counter to arguments against monasticism as such. Does such a thing exist? I realize that there will be fuzzy line between these two domains, so sources that touch on both are acceptable to me.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-05-07T02:21:26.383Z
lots of suttas but these should not be used to attack the lifestyles of laypeople. these suttas are for monks & nuns to read (rather than for laypeople to read)
Dhamma Dhatu
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-05-07T03:01:12.700Z
Which suttas can I search for? I'm particularly interested in polemics that would be propagated widely across cultures and religions, but 'private' communiques are fine too.
Lucky
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-05-07T06:21:38.193Z
Some of the anti-monastic arguments might come from people's parents (e.g. "we need you to help us earn a living"). I read that Buddhism tries to avoid that (conflict with lay society) by requiring that people have their parents' permission when they ordain.
ChrisW
<reference-request><monasticism>
Looking for anti-anti-monasticism apologia from a Buddhist perspective
# Looking for anti-anti-monasticism apologia from a Buddhist perspective

(Asked by: username_0 on 2021-05-07)

It is commonly asserted that Buddhism advocates for monasticism as an ethical ideal for at least some of humanity. I am interested not in arguments for monasticism full stop, but arguments from a Buddhist perspective that are counter to arguments against monasticism as such. Does such a thing exist? I realize that there will be fuzzy line between these two domains, so sources that touch on both are acceptable to me.

**Tags:** reference-request, monasticism

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: lots of suttas but these should not be used to attack the lifestyles of laypeople. these suttas are for monks & nuns to read (rather than for laypeople to read)  
> **username_0**: Which suttas can I search for? I'm particularly interested in polemics that would be propagated widely across cultures and religions, but 'private' communiques are fine too.  
> **username_2**: Some of the anti-monastic arguments might come from people's parents (e.g. "we need you to help us earn a living"). I read that Buddhism tries to avoid that (conflict with lay society) by requiring that people have their parents' permission when they ordain.  

---

## 2 answers

### Answer by username_3 on 2021-05-07. Score: 1

Notably, a senior layperson once dragged a junior fellow layperson by the hair to see a Buddha:

> [MN81:9.1](https://suttacentral.net/mn81/en/sujato#mn81:9.1): Then Ghaṭīkāra grabbed Jotipāla by the hair of his freshly-washed head and said,  
> [MN81:9.2](https://suttacentral.net/mn81/en/sujato#mn81:9.2): ‘Dear Jotipāla, the Buddha Kassapa’s monastery is not far away.  
> [MN81:9.3](https://suttacentral.net/mn81/en/sujato#mn81:9.3): Let’s go to see the Blessed One Kassapa, the perfected one, the fully awakened Buddha.  
> [MN81:9.4](https://suttacentral.net/mn81/en/sujato#mn81:9.4): For I regard it as holy to see that Blessed One.’

The senior layperson was Ghaṭīkāra. The junior layperson Jotipāla. It's quite the compelling ant-anti-monasticism sutta. Here Ghaṭīkāra wishes Jotipāla to see the Buddha Kassapa. And Jotipāla stubbornly refuses in the most obnoxious anti-monastic way:

> [MN81:6.7](https://suttacentral.net/mn81/en/sujato#mn81:6.7): ‘Enough, dear Ghaṭīkāra.  
> [MN81:6.8](https://suttacentral.net/mn81/en/sujato#mn81:6.8): What’s the use of seeing that baldy, that fake ascetic?’

But Ghaṭīkāra prevailed and they went to see the Buddha Kassapa. Inspired by that meeting, Jotipāla went forth.

> [MN81:12.4](https://suttacentral.net/mn81/en/sujato#mn81:12.4): And Jotipāla the brahmin student received the going forth, the ordination in the Buddha’s presence.

Ghaṭīkāra here takes the anti-anti-monastic role as a layperson. But Ghaṭīkāra is a special layperson, since he is also Buddha Kassapa's chief attendant in this sutta.

If you're interested, the sutta also explains why Ghaṭīkāra himself did not go forth. And Jotipāla? Jotipāla was eventually reborn as Gautama Buddha.


---

### Answer by username_4 on 2021-05-07. Score: 0

You can find some anti-monasticism stories and anti-anti-monasticism rebuttals in the following suttas. But I would say that anti-anti-monasticism arguments and for-monasticism arguments are more-or-less the same.

Please see [Ud 1.8](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.1.08.than.html), [MN 82](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.082.than.html), [Thig 14.1](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/thig/thig.14.01.than.html).

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Ud 1.8 and MN. 82 do not address arguments against monasticism insofar as they are arguments against worldly attachments. Thig 14.1 is closer to what I am looking for, thank you.  

---

