<p>The passage in AN 9.37 omits the sixth sense sphere because the sixth sense sphere is conscious/percipient of the immaterial spheres:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>[Ven. Udāyin:] “When not sensitive to that dimension, my friend, one
is percipient of what?”</p>
<p>[Ven. Ānanda:] “There is the case where, with the complete
transcending of perceptions of (physical) form, with the disappearance
of perceptions of resistance, and not attending to perceptions of
multiplicity, (perceiving,) ‘Infinite space,’ one enters &amp; remains in
the dimension of the infinitude of space. Percipient in this way, one
is not sensitive to that dimension [i.e, the dimensions of the five
physical senses].</p>
<p>And further, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the
infinitude of space, (perceiving,) ‘Infinite consciousness,’ one
enters &amp; remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness.
Percipient in this way, too, one is not sensitive to that dimension.</p>
<p>And further, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the
infinitude of consciousness, (perceiving,) ‘There is nothing,’ one
enters &amp; remains in the dimension of nothingness. Percipient in this
way, too, one is not sensitive to that dimension.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>MN 43 does not say: &quot;<em>The mental faculties are very clear</em>&quot;. When MN 43 uses the term 'faculties', it is referring the five physical sense faculties, as follows:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Friend, there are these five faculties each with a separate range, a
separate domain, and they do not experience one another's range &amp;
domain: the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the
tongue-faculty, &amp; the body-faculty.</p>
<p>Friend, what can be known with the purified intellect-consciousness
divorced from the five [sense] faculties? Friend, with the purified intellect-consciousness divorced from the
five faculties the dimension of the infinitude of space can be known
[as] 'infinite space.' The dimension of the infinitude of
consciousness can be known [as] 'infinite consciousness.' The
dimension of nothingness can be known [as] 'There is nothing.'</p>
<p>But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception &amp; feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased &amp; subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased &amp; subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, &amp; his [five sense] faculties are exceptionally clear.</p>
<p><a href="https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">MN 43</a></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Also, the translation &quot;clear&quot; sounds misleading because it gives the impression the five sense faculties are lucid &amp; conscious. The Pali is <a href="https://suttacentral.net/define/vippasanna" rel="nofollow noreferrer">vippasanna</a>, which can mean 'pure', in the sense of 'clean', rather than 'lucid' or 'sinless'.</p>
<p><a href="https://i.sstatic.net/4Vw0m.png" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/4Vw0m.png" alt="enter image description here" /></a></p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-21T00:39:29.660Z
so to be clear, you are saying AN9:37 is describing jhana, and not a post-jhana state
blue_ego
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-21T00:42:38.333Z
No. There are only four jhanas, the 1st with vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha, ekaggata, 2nd, 3rd & 4th. AN 9.37 is describing arupa spheres, which occur after the four jhanas. In common speech, AN 9.37 is describing the 5th, 6th & 7th 'jhana'; even though they are not called 'jhana' in the suttas.
Dhamma Dhatu
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-21T00:50:25.383Z
that's what i thought but i was reading as if it was post-jhana....
blue_ego
CC BY-SA 4.0
2023-06-21T00:23:16.407Z
2023-06-21T02:49:22.280Z
2023-06-21T02:49:22.280Z
Dhamma Dhatu
<p>From <a href="https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN9_37.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">AN 9.37</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Ven. Ānanda said, “It’s amazing, friends, it’s astounding, how the
Blessed One who knows &amp; sees, the worthy one, rightly self-awakened,
has attained &amp; awakened to an opening [in a confining place]1 for the
purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow &amp; lamentation,
for the disappearance of pain &amp; distress, for the attainment of the
right method, &amp; for the realization of unbinding, where the eye will
be, and those forms, and yet one will not be sensitive to that
dimension; where the ear will be, and those sounds… where the nose
will be, and those aromas… where the tongue will be, and those
flavors… where the body will be, and those tactile sensations, and yet
<strong>one will not be sensitive to that dimension.</strong>”</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Why does the passage omit the sixth-sense sphere, intellect-idea?  Usually the use of ellipsis for repetitive text, but not in this discourse.  Does this discourse describe intra-jhana or a state after jhana?</p>
<p>As an adjunct, MN43 says this about the state after <em>cessation of perception and feeling</em>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Friend, what is the difference between a dead body and a bhikkhu
attained to the cessation of perceptions and feelings? Friend, in a
dead body the bodily determination (in and out breath) has ceased and
is appeased The verbal determination (thinking and pondering) has
ceased and is appeased The mental determination (feeling and
perception) has ceased and is appeased. Vitality is exhausted. The
heat has extinguished, and the mental faculties have broken up.</p>
<p>Of the bhikkhu attained to the cessation of perceptions and feelings,
the bodily determintion has ceased and is appeased. The verbal
determination has ceased and is appeased. The mental determination has
ceased is appeased. Vitality is not exhausted. The heat is not
extinguished. <strong>The mental faculties are very clear.</strong> Friend, this is
the difference between a dead body and of one attained to the
cessation of perceptions and feelings.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>If AN 9:37 is not describing jhana, does MN.43 describe a state different than AN 9.37?</p>

<sutras><jhana>
What does discourse AN 9.37 describe?
# What does discourse AN 9.37 describe?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2023-06-20)

From [AN 9.37](https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN9_37.html):

> Ven. Ānanda said, “It’s amazing, friends, it’s astounding, how the
> Blessed One who knows & sees, the worthy one, rightly self-awakened,
> has attained & awakened to an opening [in a confining place]1 for the
> purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation,
> for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the
> right method, & for the realization of unbinding, where the eye will
> be, and those forms, and yet one will not be sensitive to that
> dimension; where the ear will be, and those sounds… where the nose
> will be, and those aromas… where the tongue will be, and those
> flavors… where the body will be, and those tactile sensations, and yet
> **one will not be sensitive to that dimension.**”

Why does the passage omit the sixth-sense sphere, intellect-idea? Usually the use of ellipsis for repetitive text, but not in this discourse. Does this discourse describe intra-jhana or a state after jhana?

As an adjunct, MN43 says this about the state after *cessation of perception and feeling*:

> Friend, what is the difference between a dead body and a bhikkhu
> attained to the cessation of perceptions and feelings? Friend, in a
> dead body the bodily determination (in and out breath) has ceased and
> is appeased The verbal determination (thinking and pondering) has
> ceased and is appeased The mental determination (feeling and
> perception) has ceased and is appeased. Vitality is exhausted. The
> heat has extinguished, and the mental faculties have broken up.
>
> Of the bhikkhu attained to the cessation of perceptions and feelings,
> the bodily determintion has ceased and is appeased. The verbal
> determination has ceased and is appeased. The mental determination has
> ceased is appeased. Vitality is not exhausted. The heat is not
> extinguished. **The mental faculties are very clear.** Friend, this is
> the difference between a dead body and of one attained to the
> cessation of perceptions and feelings.

If AN 9:37 is not describing jhana, does MN.43 describe a state different than AN 9.37?

**Tags:** sutras, jhana


---

## 1 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2023-06-21. Score: 2 | Accepted answer

The passage in AN 9.37 omits the sixth sense sphere because the sixth sense sphere is conscious/percipient of the immaterial spheres:

> [Ven. Udāyin:] “When not sensitive to that dimension, my friend, one
> is percipient of what?”
>
> [Ven. Ānanda:] “There is the case where, with the complete
> transcending of perceptions of (physical) form, with the disappearance
> of perceptions of resistance, and not attending to perceptions of
> multiplicity, (perceiving,) ‘Infinite space,’ one enters & remains in
> the dimension of the infinitude of space. Percipient in this way, one
> is not sensitive to that dimension [i.e, the dimensions of the five
> physical senses].
>
> And further, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the
> infinitude of space, (perceiving,) ‘Infinite consciousness,’ one
> enters & remains in the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness.
> Percipient in this way, too, one is not sensitive to that dimension.
>
> And further, with the complete transcending of the dimension of the
> infinitude of consciousness, (perceiving,) ‘There is nothing,’ one
> enters & remains in the dimension of nothingness. Percipient in this
> way, too, one is not sensitive to that dimension.

MN 43 does not say: "*The mental faculties are very clear*". When MN 43 uses the term 'faculties', it is referring the five physical sense faculties, as follows:

> Friend, there are these five faculties each with a separate range, a
> separate domain, and they do not experience one another's range &
> domain: the eye-faculty, the ear-faculty, the nose-faculty, the
> tongue-faculty, & the body-faculty.
>
> Friend, what can be known with the purified intellect-consciousness
> divorced from the five [sense] faculties? Friend, with the purified intellect-consciousness divorced from the
> five faculties the dimension of the infinitude of space can be known
> [as] 'infinite space.' The dimension of the infinitude of
> consciousness can be known [as] 'infinite consciousness.' The
> dimension of nothingness can be known [as] 'There is nothing.'
>
> But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, & his [five sense] faculties are exceptionally clear.
>
> [MN 43](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html)

Also, the translation "clear" sounds misleading because it gives the impression the five sense faculties are lucid & conscious. The Pali is [vippasanna](https://suttacentral.net/define/vippasanna), which can mean 'pure', in the sense of 'clean', rather than 'lucid' or 'sinless'.

[![enter image description here](https://i.sstatic.net/4Vw0m.png)](https://i.sstatic.net/4Vw0m.png)

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: so to be clear, you are saying AN9:37 is describing jhana, and not a post-jhana state  
> **username_1**: No. There are only four jhanas, the 1st with vitakka, vicara, piti, sukha, ekaggata, 2nd, 3rd & 4th. AN 9.37 is describing arupa spheres, which occur after the four jhanas. In common speech, AN 9.37 is describing the 5th, 6th & 7th 'jhana'; even though they are not called 'jhana' in the suttas.  
> **username_0**: that's what i thought but i was reading as if it was post-jhana....  

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