<p>&quot;Proper means&quot; has nothing to do with the Buddha-Dhamma, good householder, as Shaolin hasn't. To call oneself Buddhas monk, yet not even serious in regard the precepts and dedicated to win and gain, actors for trade, is simply a thief. May no one get fooled by fools.</p>
<p>Wrong deeds stay wrong deeds, precepts are simple and no go, as well as kamma doesn't argue around.</p>
<p>But in regard whether a mass-murder could become a saint, Arahat, reaching Nibbana in present life: yes (as long as not killed mother, father or an Arahat). One may get familar with</p>
<blockquote>
<p><a href="https://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/authors/hecker/wheel312_en.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Angulimala: A Murderer's Road to Sainthood</a>, <em>by Hellmuth Hecker (2007; 12pp./37KB)<br>
A biography in the BPS's &quot;Lives of the Disciples&quot; series. A brief biography of Angulimala, the notorious bandit who was transformed by the Dhamma and eventually became an arahant.</em></p>
</blockquote>
<p>Results of actions are still arising for Saints, but taken with ease, impersonal untouched by Arahts.</p>
<p><em>[Note that this isn't given for trade binding to the world, stacks, exchange... but for rekease from this wheel]</em></p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-29T03:20:45.230Z
re-edit back my question. Those monk/nun must put down status as layman and of course with terms and condition - no killing of parent and other monks with Emperor else negotiation fail. In this case, it's difficult to reach Nirvana if join the force, that's why Bodhisattva that qualified to Nirvana was born to stay and help in Samsara and influence others to the path of Nirvana.
Wayne97
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-29T07:14:00.853Z
@Wayne97 The "Bodhisattva" doctrine is a feature of Mahayana, which Samana Johann may consider unorthodox. The "vinaya" (rules of discipline and etiquette for monks) may exist in forms (lineages) in different places; but people who are familiar with the Theravada Vinayana could find that difficult to reconcile with the behaviour of modern martial artists (demonstrating acrobatic prowess etc.). The first result I found from https://www.google.com/search?q=shaolin+vinaya was [this discussion](https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/vinaya-lineage-of-shaolin-monks/7978) on Sutta Central.
ChrisW
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-29T07:33:56.663Z
@Wayne97 I think that that (i.e. "only focus on personal enlightenment") might what Mahayana would call "Hinayana" -- not "Theravada" (which means old or "senior", not "small", i.e. "the way of the elder monks", the word "Thera" meaning "senior monk"). See also [this comment](https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/12093/should-a-person-never-lie/12094#comment20084_12094).
ChrisW
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-29T07:45:54.693Z
thanks Chris for the comment and guide.
Wayne97
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-29T07:46:44.007Z
Who helps by harming others? Who helps even by wandering on and feed on others? Cheer foolish ideas... Wrong stays wrong and harm, harm. Not a little can those thieves be regarded as offsprings of the Buddha but simple foolish heros for one day, supporter of a side and harmer of many for there foolish ways... End never, not even as Bodhisatta, had the Sublime Buddha any aspiration to stay and continue harm. Folktales...
Samana Johann
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-30T04:38:40.640Z
@SamanaJohann  I am a Shaolin Wing Chun martial arts practitioner but still stuck at beginner and meditation level. I dont understand the title above or how to be true righteous, that's why i am asking. https://medium.com/wing-chun-kung-fu/ip-mans-code-of-conduct-49be0327637f  see ethics #9 and below link https://zenstudiespodcast.com/asoka-1/  .. It mentioned about righteous too if you studying about Buddhism Zen.
Wayne97
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-30T04:41:32.450Z
while stuck in level 1 learning rather than focus in fighting, i managed to learn new skill as below like usages of white noise, using natural resources to purify dirts/waters/sound/air . "Be Water" -by Bruce Lee. The idea came by instinct during meditation. https://allenpools-spas.com/blog/sound-flowing-water-soothes/?fbclid=IwAR21cF6jdoIcgB-4CJ7gIzi1CvZptWOHjk_2PhQi_wAVMPcnaL8Fks2SwNQ   https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MgyQ2qYVMOaqdqbbJasDDVJj_WCJZFdk/view?usp=sharing       Happy Learning here!
Wayne97
CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-29T02:18:16.910Z
2020-08-29T02:26:47.223Z
2020-08-29T02:26:47.223Z
Samana Johann
<p>According to the Chinese History, subject refers are the 5 survivor of Shaolin legendary grand masters.</p>
<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bak_Mei" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bak_Mei</a></p>
<p>In history, Ng Mui was escaping from temple to temple while Bak Mei joined the military and lead the troop to kill/eliminate other shaolin Temple.</p>
<p>What if those 5 elderly grant masters put down status as Monk/Nun, join the military with righteous intention and good deed/win win term and condition with Emperor. In this case, path to Nirvana likely unable to achieve.</p>
<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_of_Kshitigarbha" rel="nofollow noreferrer">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_of_Kshitigarbha</a>
&quot;Until the hells are empty (of suffering beings), I will not become a Buddha.&quot;
(「地獄不空，誓不成佛。」)</p>
<p>The intention is to influence the Emperor/General to minimize the damages and at the same time not losing the Empire base on Buddhism teaching? By right those grand masters should equipped with Buddhism/Taoism super natural abilities then should not be difficult.?  If it doesn't work and disagreement from Emperor, then quit the military.</p>
<p>If influence to the emperor was success and damages was minimum say 50k killed instead of 500k. So it saved 90% lives and many of them inspired and follow grand master learning Buddhism. Then Buddhism get greater influence and follower multiples.</p>
<p>In this case, can the 50k person killed is waived from Bad Karma?
Those grand master should have high Buddhism wisdom power to influence and change ?</p>
<p>This might applicable to corporate working life now or politics world.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2020-08-29T07:36:24.167Z
This sounds like it might be related to [Trolley problem and its variants in Buddhist ethics](https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/q/12237/254) and [The buddhist dillema on lesser evil](https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/q/10954/254).
ChrisW
<doubt>
Shaolin Legandary Elders Great Power Comes with Great Responsibilty - Buddhism Zen
# Shaolin Legandary Elders Great Power Comes with Great Responsibilty - Buddhism Zen

(Asked by: username_0 on 2020-08-28)

According to the Chinese History, subject refers are the 5 survivor of Shaolin legendary grand masters.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bak_Mei>

In history, Ng Mui was escaping from temple to temple while Bak Mei joined the military and lead the troop to kill/eliminate other shaolin Temple.

What if those 5 elderly grant masters put down status as Monk/Nun, join the military with righteous intention and good deed/win win term and condition with Emperor. In this case, path to Nirvana likely unable to achieve.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hall_of_Kshitigarbha>
"Until the hells are empty (of suffering beings), I will not become a Buddha."
(「地獄不空，誓不成佛。」)

The intention is to influence the Emperor/General to minimize the damages and at the same time not losing the Empire base on Buddhism teaching? By right those grand masters should equipped with Buddhism/Taoism super natural abilities then should not be difficult.? If it doesn't work and disagreement from Emperor, then quit the military.

If influence to the emperor was success and damages was minimum say 50k killed instead of 500k. So it saved 90% lives and many of them inspired and follow grand master learning Buddhism. Then Buddhism get greater influence and follower multiples.

In this case, can the 50k person killed is waived from Bad Karma?
Those grand master should have high Buddhism wisdom power to influence and change ?

This might applicable to corporate working life now or politics world.

**Tags:** doubt

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: This sounds like it might be related to [Trolley problem and its variants in Buddhist ethics](https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/q/12237/254) and [The buddhist dillema on lesser evil](https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/q/10954/254).  

---

## 1 answers

### Answer by username_2 on 2020-08-29. Score: 1

"Proper means" has nothing to do with the Buddha-Dhamma, good householder, as Shaolin hasn't. To call oneself Buddhas monk, yet not even serious in regard the precepts and dedicated to win and gain, actors for trade, is simply a thief. May no one get fooled by fools.

Wrong deeds stay wrong deeds, precepts are simple and no go, as well as kamma doesn't argue around.

But in regard whether a mass-murder could become a saint, Arahat, reaching Nibbana in present life: yes (as long as not killed mother, father or an Arahat). One may get familar with

> [Angulimala: A Murderer's Road to Sainthood](https://zugangzureinsicht.org/html/lib/authors/hecker/wheel312_en.html), *by Hellmuth Hecker (2007; 12pp./37KB)  
> A biography in the BPS's "Lives of the Disciples" series. A brief biography of Angulimala, the notorious bandit who was transformed by the Dhamma and eventually became an arahant.*

Results of actions are still arising for Saints, but taken with ease, impersonal untouched by Arahts.

*[Note that this isn't given for trade binding to the world, stacks, exchange... but for rekease from this wheel]*

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: re-edit back my question. Those monk/nun must put down status as layman and of course with terms and condition - no killing of parent and other monks with Emperor else negotiation fail. In this case, it's difficult to reach Nirvana if join the force, that's why Bodhisattva that qualified to Nirvana was born to stay and help in Samsara and influence others to the path of Nirvana.  
> **username_1**: @username_0 The "Bodhisattva" doctrine is a feature of Mahayana, which username_2 may consider unorthodox. The "vinaya" (rules of discipline and etiquette for monks) may exist in forms (lineages) in different places; but people who are familiar with the Theravada Vinayana could find that difficult to reconcile with the behaviour of modern martial artists (demonstrating acrobatic prowess etc.). The first result I found from https://www.google.com/search?q=shaolin+vinaya was [this discussion](https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/vinaya-lineage-of-shaolin-monks/7978) on Sutta Central.  
> **username_1**: @username_0 I think that that (i.e. "only focus on personal enlightenment") might what Mahayana would call "Hinayana" -- not "Theravada" (which means old or "senior", not "small", i.e. "the way of the elder monks", the word "Thera" meaning "senior monk"). See also [this comment](https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/12093/should-a-person-never-lie/12094#comment20084_12094).  
> **username_0**: thanks Chris for the comment and guide.  
> **username_2**: Who helps by harming others? Who helps even by wandering on and feed on others? Cheer foolish ideas... Wrong stays wrong and harm, harm. Not a little can those thieves be regarded as offsprings of the Buddha but simple foolish heros for one day, supporter of a side and harmer of many for there foolish ways... End never, not even as Bodhisatta, had the Sublime Buddha any aspiration to stay and continue harm. Folktales...  
> **username_0**: @SamanaJohann  I am a Shaolin Wing Chun martial arts practitioner but still stuck at beginner and meditation level. I dont understand the title above or how to be true righteous, that's why i am asking. https://medium.com/wing-chun-kung-fu/ip-mans-code-of-conduct-49be0327637f  see ethics #9 and below link https://zenstudiespodcast.com/asoka-1/  .. It mentioned about righteous too if you studying about Buddhism Zen.  
> **username_0**: while stuck in level 1 learning rather than focus in fighting, i managed to learn new skill as below like usages of white noise, using natural resources to purify dirts/waters/sound/air . "Be Water" -by Bruce Lee. The idea came by instinct during meditation. https://allenpools-spas.com/blog/sound-flowing-water-soothes/?fbclid=IwAR21cF6jdoIcgB-4CJ7gIzi1CvZptWOHjk_2PhQi_wAVMPcnaL8Fks2SwNQ   https://drive.google.com/file/d/1MgyQ2qYVMOaqdqbbJasDDVJj_WCJZFdk/view?usp=sharing       Happy Learning here!  

---

