<p>I think this is just a translation issue. As I understand the philosophical breakdown here, we have (without using key-words):</p>
<ol>
<li>An evaluative stage, where we assess some perceived state: good/bad,
right/wrong, pleasant/grating, etc.</li>
<li>An impulse/intention stage, where we determine that we will address the evaluation, trying to shift the perceived state away from the bad and towards the good.</li>
<li>An achievement stage, where our efforts result in a change in the perceived state (rarely exactly the change we envisioned in the evaluative stage).</li>
</ol>
<p>In English, the terms 'attachment' and 'craving' can fit either °1 or °2, depending on whether we use them with an active or passive connotation. Different people tend to spin it different ways, and there isn't a firm consensus on which term should be used for which.</p>
<p>The last phrase, I think, is just a nod to the complexity of the world. It's rare that a result has only one cause, or that a cause produces only one result. Karma is a web of movements, in which myriad events are constantly interacting and interfering with each other, combining to produce results. That's why I prefer to say 'perceived states' instead of 'perceived objects' or 'perceived events'. A 'state' is the collection of all the forces and influence moving through perception.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-08-08T13:49:19.203Z
Evaluation is conditioned and there is conditioned response…
blue_ego
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-08-08T17:00:18.383Z
@blue_ego: Good point. I was just working with the three words you mentioned above. Andriy Volkov does  more complete job of things below.
Ted Wrigley
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-08-07T14:25:21.937Z
2024-08-08T05:40:50.860Z
2024-08-08T05:40:50.860Z
Ted Wrigley
<p>I recall (in the past) reading Tibetan teachings where attachment is the first of the three poisons (greed, hatred &amp; delusion). I guess its simply a translation issue from Tibetan language to English language.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-08-09T14:04:57.087Z
related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_poisons
blue_ego
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-08-09T16:04:32.670Z
"Grāha (ग्राह) refers to “grasping”, according to the Gaganagañjaparipṛcchā: the eighth chapter of the Mahāsaṃnipāta (a collection of **Mahāyāna Buddhist** Sūtras)."
blue_ego
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-08-06T04:21:03.990Z
2024-08-06T04:21:03.990Z
Dhamma Dhatu
<p>To second what Ted said, you need to understand the essential meaning, the words are just pointers.</p>
<p>The essential meaning of these nidanas is:</p>
<ul>
<li>the mind produces an idea of an external object</li>
<li>the mind produces an idea of contact with what it delineated on the previous step</li>
<li>the mind attributes the feelings of pleasure or pain to the contact</li>
<li>the mind produces an idea that attaining (or avoiding)  the object will generate (or avoid) the qualities of pleasure or pain</li>
<li>the mind comes up with a plan for attaining or avoiding the object</li>
<li>as the mind executes the plan it evaluates the current position vis-a-vis the target</li>
<li>the mind tracks the current position over time</li>
<li>tracking the position over time develops into a sense of self</li>
<li>attaining the object, enjoying the result, and reflecting back on the steps taken to attain it, cements the sense of self as the subject of the pursuit.</li>
</ul>
<p>(^This is more or less the same as what Ted said in his 1/2/3 bullet points, I'm just spelling it out)</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-08-17T18:57:40.053Z
I wrote those sentences as if the mind was the driver, but in fact it's just like a river flowing down, it happens by itself.
Andriy Volkov
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-08-20T19:25:13.313Z
Words are pointers but the right ones are still useful somehow unfortunately :(
blue_ego
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-08-20T19:50:08.197Z
that's why I wrote this answer in English and not in some ancient language ;-)
Andriy Volkov
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-08-07T16:50:34.520Z
2024-08-07T21:18:54.647Z
2024-08-07T21:18:54.647Z
Andriy Volkov
<p>In the book <em>The Meaning of Life from a Buddhist Perspective</em> links eight, nine, ten of <a href="https://www.learnreligions.com/inks-of-dependent-origination-449745" rel="nofollow noreferrer">dependent origination</a>, <em><a href="https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/paticcasamuppada#theravada" rel="nofollow noreferrer">pratityasamutpada</a></em>, are mentioned as attachment, grasping, existence.  I am accustomed to seeing eight, nine, ten, as craving (desire), clinging (attachment), becoming, respectively.  What are the ramifications of the swap - if I might infer it that way?</p>
<p>On a side note, along with the mentioning of the above, there is the mention of &quot;multiple rounds of dependent-arising occurring simultaneously&quot;</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-08-07T13:21:58.637Z
See also [Why do the Noble Truths talk about 'craving', instead of about 'attachment'?](https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/q/17746/254)
ChrisW
<pratityasamutpada>
Why does attachment replace craving?
# Why does attachment replace craving?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2024-08-05)

In the book *The Meaning of Life from a Buddhist Perspective* links eight, nine, ten of [dependent origination](https://www.learnreligions.com/inks-of-dependent-origination-449745), *[pratityasamutpada](https://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/paticcasamuppada#theravada)*, are mentioned as attachment, grasping, existence. I am accustomed to seeing eight, nine, ten, as craving (desire), clinging (attachment), becoming, respectively. What are the ramifications of the swap - if I might infer it that way?

On a side note, along with the mentioning of the above, there is the mention of "multiple rounds of dependent-arising occurring simultaneously"

**Tags:** pratityasamutpada

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: See also [Why do the Noble Truths talk about 'craving', instead of about 'attachment'?](https://buddhism.stackexchange.com/q/17746/254)  

---

## 3 answers

### Answer by username_2 on 2024-08-07. Score: 2

I think this is just a translation issue. As I understand the philosophical breakdown here, we have (without using key-words):

1. An evaluative stage, where we assess some perceived state: good/bad,
   right/wrong, pleasant/grating, etc.
2. An impulse/intention stage, where we determine that we will address the evaluation, trying to shift the perceived state away from the bad and towards the good.
3. An achievement stage, where our efforts result in a change in the perceived state (rarely exactly the change we envisioned in the evaluative stage).

In English, the terms 'attachment' and 'craving' can fit either °1 or °2, depending on whether we use them with an active or passive connotation. Different people tend to spin it different ways, and there isn't a firm consensus on which term should be used for which.

The last phrase, I think, is just a nod to the complexity of the world. It's rare that a result has only one cause, or that a cause produces only one result. Karma is a web of movements, in which myriad events are constantly interacting and interfering with each other, combining to produce results. That's why I prefer to say 'perceived states' instead of 'perceived objects' or 'perceived events'. A 'state' is the collection of all the forces and influence moving through perception.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Evaluation is conditioned and there is conditioned response…  
> **username_2**: @username_0: Good point. I was just working with the three words you mentioned above. username_4 does  more complete job of things below.  

---

### Answer by username_3 on 2024-08-06. Score: 0

I recall (in the past) reading Tibetan teachings where attachment is the first of the three poisons (greed, hatred & delusion). I guess its simply a translation issue from Tibetan language to English language.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_poisons  
> **username_0**: "Grāha (ग्राह) refers to “grasping”, according to the Gaganagañjaparipṛcchā: the eighth chapter of the Mahāsaṃnipāta (a collection of **Mahāyāna Buddhist** Sūtras)."  

---

### Answer by username_4 on 2024-08-07. Score: 0

To second what Ted said, you need to understand the essential meaning, the words are just pointers.

The essential meaning of these nidanas is:

* the mind produces an idea of an external object
* the mind produces an idea of contact with what it delineated on the previous step
* the mind attributes the feelings of pleasure or pain to the contact
* the mind produces an idea that attaining (or avoiding) the object will generate (or avoid) the qualities of pleasure or pain
* the mind comes up with a plan for attaining or avoiding the object
* as the mind executes the plan it evaluates the current position vis-a-vis the target
* the mind tracks the current position over time
* tracking the position over time develops into a sense of self
* attaining the object, enjoying the result, and reflecting back on the steps taken to attain it, cements the sense of self as the subject of the pursuit.

(^This is more or less the same as what Ted said in his 1/2/3 bullet points, I'm just spelling it out)

> **Comments:**
> **username_4**: I wrote those sentences as if the mind was the driver, but in fact it's just like a river flowing down, it happens by itself.  
> **username_0**: Words are pointers but the right ones are still useful somehow unfortunately :(  
> **username_4**: that's why I wrote this answer in English and not in some ancient language ;-)  

---

