<p>The Pali suttas provide accurate descriptions of Nirvana, such as the '<em>destruction of craving</em>' (<a href="https://suttacentral.net/en/dhp#154" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><em>Dhammapada 154</em></a>; <a href="https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books9/Bhikkhu_Bodhi_Culatanhasankhaya_Sutta.htm" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><em>MN 37</em></a>); '<em>visible here-&amp;-now destruction of greed, hatred &amp; delusion</em>' (<a href="https://suttacentral.net/en/an3.55" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><em>AN 3.55</em></a>; <a href="https://suttacentral.net/en/sn45.7" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><em>SN 45.7</em></a>); '<em>supreme happiness</em>' (<a href="https://suttacentral.net/en/dhp#203" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><em>Dhammapada 203</em></a>); and '<a href="https://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh208_Nyanaponika_Bodhi_Anguttara-Nikaya-Anthology--II.html#S48TheSimileoftheOcean" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><em>Simile of the Ocean</em></a>'. </p>

<p>Therefore, the description by Nâgasena given to King Millinda in his <a href="http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe36/sbe3606.htm#page_186" rel="nofollow noreferrer">80th dilemma</a> should be compared to the Pali suttas to test its accuracy. </p>

<p>That Nagasena offered a very lengthy answer shows he did not really have a "dilemma" &amp; spoke falsely, when he said: '<em>Nirvâna, O king, has nothing similar to it. By no metaphor, or explanation, or reason, or argument can its form, or figure, or duration, or measure be made clear</em>.'</p>

<p>These links might help: <a href="http://www.suanmokkh.org/books/84" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Nibbana For Everyone</a> &amp; <a href="http://www.aimwell.org/nibbana.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Bhikkhu Pesala What Is Nibbāna?</a></p>

<p>Have you bothered to read the text or are you a university student looking for an easy answer? </p>

<blockquote>
  <p>'O happy word, Nâgasena! Speak then, quickly, that I may have an
  explanation of even one point in the characteristics of Nirvâna.
  Appease the fever of my heart. Allay it by the cool sweet breezes of
  your words!'</p>
  
  <p>'There is one quality of the lotus, O king, inherent in Nirvâna, and
  two qualities of water, and three of medicine, and four of the ocean,
  and five of food, and ten of space, and three of the wish-conferring
  gem, and three of red sandal wood, and three of the froth of ghee, and
  five of a mountain peak.'</p>
  
  <ol start="66">
  <li>'Venerable Nâgasena, that one quality of the lotus which you said was inherent in Nirvâna,--which is that?'</li>
  </ol>
  
  <p>'As the lotus, O king, is untarnished by the water 3, so is <strong>Nirvâna
  untarnished by any evil dispositions</strong>. This is the one quality of the
  lotus inherent in Nirvâna.'</p>
  
  <ol start="67">
  <li>'Venerable Nâgasena, those two qualities of water which you said were inherent in Nirvâna,--which are they?'</li>
  </ol>
  
  <p>'As water, O king, is cool and assuages heat, so <strong>also is Nirvâna
  cool</strong>, and <strong>assuages the fever arising from all evil dispositions</strong>.
  This is the first quality of water inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O
  king, as water <strong>allays the thirst</strong> of men and beasts when they are
  exhausted and anxious, craving for drink, and tormented by thirst, so
  does <strong>Nirvâna allay the thirst of the craving after lusts, the
  craving after future life, and the craving after worldly prosperity</strong>
  . This is the second quality of water inherent in Nirvâna.'</p>
  
  <ol start="68">
  <li>'Venerable Nâgasena, those three qualities of medicine, which you said were inherent in Nirvâna,--which are they?'</li>
  </ol>
  
  <p>'As medicine, O king, is the refuge of beings tormented by poison, so
  is <strong>Nirvâna the refuge of beings tormented with the poison of evil
  dispositions</strong>. This is the first quality of medicine inherent in
  Nirvâna. And again, O king, as medicine puts an end to diseases, so
  does <strong>Nirvâna put an end to griefs</strong>. This is the second quality of
  medicine inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as medicine is
  ambrosia, so <strong>also is Nirvâna ambrosia</strong>. This is the third quality
  of medicine inherent in Nirvâna.'</p>
  
  <ol start="69">
  <li>'Venerable Nâgasena, those four qualities of the ocean which you said were inherent in Nirvâna,--which are they?'</li>
  </ol>
  
  <p>'As the ocean, O king, is free from (empty of) corpses, so also is
  Nirvâna free from (<strong>empty of) the dead bodies of all evil
  dispositions</strong>. This, O king, is the first quality of the ocean
  inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as the ocean is mighty and
  boundless, and fills not with all the rivers that flow in to it; so is
  Nirvâna <strong>mighty and boundless, and fills not with all beings (who
  enter in to it</strong>). This is the second quality of the ocean inherent in
  Nirvâna. And again, O king, as the ocean is the abode of mighty
  creatures, so is Nirvâna the abode of great men--Arahats, in whom the
  Great Evils and <strong>all stains have been destroyed</strong>, endowed with
  power, masters of themselves. This is the third quality of the ocean
  inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as the ocean is all in
  blossom, as it were, with the innumerable and various and fine flowers
  of the ripple of its waves, so is Nirvâna all in blossom, as it were,
  with the innumerable and various and fine flowers of <strong>purity, of
  knowledge, and of emancipation</strong>. This is the fourth quality of the
  ocean inherent in Nirvâna.'</p>
  
  <ol start="70">
  <li>'Venerable Nâgasena, those five qualities of food which you said were inherent in Nirvâna,--which are they?'</li>
  </ol>
  
  <p>'As food, O king, is the support of the life of all beings, so is
  Nirvâna, when it has been realised, the <strong>support of life</strong>, for it
  puts an end to old age and death. This is the first quality of food
  inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as food increases the strength
  of all beings, so does Nirvâna, when it has been realised, increase
  the power of Iddhi of all beings. This is the second quality of food
  inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as food is the source of the
  beauty of all beings, so is Nirvâna, when it has been realised, the
  source to all beings of the beauty of holiness. This is the third
  quality of food inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as food <strong>puts
  a stop to suffering in all beings, so does Nirvâna, when it has been
  realised, put a stop in all beings to the suffering arising from every
  evil disposition</strong>. This is the fourth quality of food inherent in
  Nirvâna. And again, O king, as food overcomes in all beings the
  weakness of hunger, so does Nirvâna, when it has been realised,
  <strong>overcome in all beings the weakness which arises from hunger and every sort of pain</strong>. This is the fifth quality of food inherent in
  Nirvâna.'</p>
  
  <ol start="71">
  <li>'Venerable Nâgasena, those ten qualities of space which you said were inherent in Nirvâna,--which are they?'</li>
  </ol>
  
  <p>'As space, O king, <strong>neither is born nor grows old, neither dies nor
  passes away nor is reborn</strong>, as it is incompressible, cannot be
  carried off by thieves, rests on nothing, is the sphere in which birds
  fly, is unobstructed, and is infinite; so, O king, Nirvâna is not
  born, neither does it grow old, it dies not, it passes not away, it
  has no rebirth, it is <strong>unconquerable</strong>, thieves carry it not off, it
  is <strong>not attached to anything</strong> , it is the sphere in which Arahats
  move, nothing can obstruct it, and it is infinite. These are the ten
  qualities of space inherent in Nirvâna.'</p>
  
  <ol start="72">
  <li>'Venerable Nâgasena, those three qualities of the wish-conferring gem which you said were inherent in Nirvâna,--which are they?'</li>
  </ol>
  
  <p>'As the wishing-gem, O king, <strong>satisfies every desire</strong>, so also does
  Nirvâna. This is the first quality of the wishing-gem inherent in
  Nirvâna. And again, O king, as the wishing-gem <strong>causes delight</strong>, so
  also does Nirvâna. This is the second quality of the wishing-gem
  inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as the wishing-gem is <strong>full
  of lustre</strong>, so also is Nirvâna. This is the third quality of the
  wishing-gem inherent in Nirvâna.'</p>
  
  <ol start="73">
  <li><p>'Venerable Nâgasena, those three qualities of red sandal wood which you said were inherent in Nirvâna,--which are they?' 'As red
  sandal wood, O king, is hard to get, so is Nirvâna hard to attain to.
  This is the first quality of red sandal wood inherent in Nirvâna. And
  again, O king, as red sandal wood is unequalled in the beauty of its
  perfume, so is Nirvâna. This is the second quality of red sandal wood
  inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as red sandal wood is praised
  by all the good, so is Nirvâna praised by all the Noble Ones. This is
  the third quality of red sandal wood inherent in Nirvâna.'</p></li>
  <li><p>[322] 'Venerable Nâgasena, those three qualities of the skimmings of ghee 1 which you said were inherent in Nirvâna,--which are they?'</p></li>
  </ol>
  
  <p>'As ghee is beautiful in colour, O king, so also is Nirvâna
  <strong>beautiful in righteousness</strong>. This is the first quality of the ghee inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as ghee has a pleasant
  perfume, so also has Nirvâna the pleasant perfume of righteousness.
  This is the second quality of ghee inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O
  king, as ghee has a <strong>pleasant taste</strong>, so also has Nirvâna. This is
  the third quality of ghee inherent in Nirvâna.'</p>
  
  <ol start="75">
  <li>'Venerable Nâgasena, those five qualities of a mountain peak which you said were inherent in Nirvâna,--which are they?'</li>
  </ol>
  
  <p>'As a mountain peak is <strong>very lofty</strong>, so also is Nirvâna very
  exalted. This is the first quality of a mountain peak inherent in
  Nirvâna. And again, O king, as a mountain peak is <strong>immoveable</strong>, so
  also is Nirvâna. This is the second quality of a mountain peak
  inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as a mountain peak is
  inaccessible, so also is Nirvâna <strong>inaccessible to all evil
  dispositions</strong>. This is the third quality of a mountain peak inherent
  in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as a mountain peak is a place where no
  plants can grow, so also is Nirvâna a condition in which no evil
  dispositions can grow. This is the fourth quality of a mountain peak
  inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as a mountain peak is <strong>free
  alike from desire to please and from resentment</strong>, so also is Nirvâna.
  This is the fifth quality of a mountain peak inherent in Nirvâna.'</p>
  
  <p>'Very good, Nâgasena! That is so, and I accept it as you say.'</p>
</blockquote>

<p>If you are a beginner student to Buddhism, what is important to understand is the words 'birth' &amp; 'death' mean conceiving the thoughts: "I am born" &amp; "I will die", as described in MN 140. Therefore, in Nibbana, there is no birth &amp; no death because there is no view of "I am" or "self". </p>

<blockquote>
  <p>The tides of conceiving do not sweep over one who stands upon these
  foundations, and when the tides of conceiving no longer sweep over him
  he is called a sage at peace.’ So it was said. And with reference to
  what was this said?</p>
  
  <p>“Bhikkhu, ‘I am’ is a conceiving; ‘I am this’ is a conceiving; ‘I
  shall be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall not be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall
  be possessed of form’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be formless’ is a
  conceiving; ‘I shall be percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be
  non-percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be
  neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient’ is a conceiving. Conceiving is
  a disease, conceiving is a tumour, conceiving is a dart. By overcoming
  all conceivings, bhikkhu, one is called a sage at peace. And the sage
  at peace is not born, does not age, does not die; he is not shaken and
  does not yearn. For there is nothing present in him by which he might
  be born. Not being born, how could he age? Not ageing, how could he
  die? Not dying, how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should
  he yearn?</p>
  
  <p><a href="https://suttacentral.net/en/mn140" rel="nofollow noreferrer">MN 140</a></p>
</blockquote>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-12-09T21:16:03.147Z
2017-12-09T21:50:47.050Z
2017-12-09T21:50:47.050Z
Dhamma Dhatu
<p><strong>What it is</strong></p>

<p>I guess a problem with the kinds of descriptions in the Milinda Pañha is that, so far as I know, Nirvana is a not-thing -- for example an absence of craving and attachment, and unconditioned (not a caused thing).</p>

<p><strong>What it isn't</strong></p>

<p>If there's a feeling of spaciousness or limitlessness associated with an absence of form/contraint, that (limitlessness) might remind you of an ocean; however, saying that it's like an ocean implies that (like an ocean) it is substantial.</p>

<p>So I'd start by saying it's not like any "thing", no thing which has a form.</p>

<p>Saying it's "like something" is a weak description because you're likely to want to seize that thing, to examine its form etc.</p>

<p><strong>Why it's described in both ways</strong></p>

<p>But as well as being described using negative attributes (e.g. "deathless"), it's also described using positives.</p>

<p>For example it is also described as "an Island" and so on ... I guess the "strength" of that description is that it would be "weak", misleading, unattractive, perhaps incomprehensible to only describe it as "non-existent" ... so it's described in terms of its effect rather than its form (it provides the same effect as an island, i.e. like a rescue from a flood).</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-12-10T09:38:56.507Z
2017-12-10T09:38:56.507Z
ChrisW
<p>How can we evaluate which description of nirvana is accurate? Also what problems does King Millinda point out about nirvana in his <a href="http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe36/sbe3606.htm#page_186" rel="nofollow noreferrer">80th dilemma</a>?</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-12-09T18:25:40.300Z
@SamanaJohann What about "the sorrowless state", and "the Deathless", and "Unbinding", etc.? Are these not attempts to describe Nirvana, and isn't the word "Nirvana" itself a description?
ChrisW
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-12-09T21:01:43.727Z
Hari, is this meant to be a general question about any/all attempts to describe? Or if you're asking about specific descriptions, which descriptions?
ChrisW
<nirvana><scripture><liberation><final-nirvana>
What are the strengths and weaknesses of attempts to describe Nirvana in scripture?
# What are the strengths and weaknesses of attempts to describe Nirvana in scripture?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2017-12-09)

How can we evaluate which description of nirvana is accurate? Also what problems does King Millinda point out about nirvana in his [80th dilemma](http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe36/sbe3606.htm#page_186)?

**Tags:** nirvana, scripture, liberation, final-nirvana

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: @SamanaJohann What about "the sorrowless state", and "the Deathless", and "Unbinding", etc.? Are these not attempts to describe Nirvana, and isn't the word "Nirvana" itself a description?  
> **username_1**: username_0, is this meant to be a general question about any/all attempts to describe? Or if you're asking about specific descriptions, which descriptions?  

---

## 2 answers

### Answer by username_2 on 2017-12-09. Score: 2

The Pali suttas provide accurate descriptions of Nirvana, such as the '*destruction of craving*' ([*Dhammapada 154*](https://suttacentral.net/en/dhp#154); [*MN 37*](https://www.dhammatalks.net/Books9/Bhikkhu_Bodhi_Culatanhasankhaya_Sutta.htm)); '*visible here-&-now destruction of greed, hatred & delusion*' ([*AN 3.55*](https://suttacentral.net/en/an3.55); [*SN 45.7*](https://suttacentral.net/en/sn45.7)); '*supreme happiness*' ([*Dhammapada 203*](https://suttacentral.net/en/dhp#203)); and '[*Simile of the Ocean*](https://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh208_Nyanaponika_Bodhi_Anguttara-Nikaya-Anthology--II.html#S48TheSimileoftheOcean)'.

Therefore, the description by Nâgasena given to King Millinda in his [80th dilemma](http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/sbe36/sbe3606.htm#page_186) should be compared to the Pali suttas to test its accuracy.

That Nagasena offered a very lengthy answer shows he did not really have a "dilemma" & spoke falsely, when he said: '*Nirvâna, O king, has nothing similar to it. By no metaphor, or explanation, or reason, or argument can its form, or figure, or duration, or measure be made clear*.'

These links might help: [Nibbana For Everyone](http://www.suanmokkh.org/books/84) & [Bhikkhu Pesala What Is Nibbāna?](http://www.aimwell.org/nibbana.html)

Have you bothered to read the text or are you a university student looking for an easy answer?

> 'O happy word, Nâgasena! Speak then, quickly, that I may have an
> explanation of even one point in the characteristics of Nirvâna.
> Appease the fever of my heart. Allay it by the cool sweet breezes of
> your words!'
>
> 'There is one quality of the lotus, O king, inherent in Nirvâna, and
> two qualities of water, and three of medicine, and four of the ocean,
> and five of food, and ten of space, and three of the wish-conferring
> gem, and three of red sandal wood, and three of the froth of ghee, and
> five of a mountain peak.'
>
> 66. 'Venerable Nâgasena, that one quality of the lotus which you said was inherent in Nirvâna,--which is that?'
>
> 'As the lotus, O king, is untarnished by the water 3, so is **Nirvâna
> untarnished by any evil dispositions**. This is the one quality of the
> lotus inherent in Nirvâna.'
>
> 67. 'Venerable Nâgasena, those two qualities of water which you said were inherent in Nirvâna,--which are they?'
>
> 'As water, O king, is cool and assuages heat, so **also is Nirvâna
> cool**, and **assuages the fever arising from all evil dispositions**.
> This is the first quality of water inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O
> king, as water **allays the thirst** of men and beasts when they are
> exhausted and anxious, craving for drink, and tormented by thirst, so
> does **Nirvâna allay the thirst of the craving after lusts, the
> craving after future life, and the craving after worldly prosperity**
> . This is the second quality of water inherent in Nirvâna.'
>
> 68. 'Venerable Nâgasena, those three qualities of medicine, which you said were inherent in Nirvâna,--which are they?'
>
> 'As medicine, O king, is the refuge of beings tormented by poison, so
> is **Nirvâna the refuge of beings tormented with the poison of evil
> dispositions**. This is the first quality of medicine inherent in
> Nirvâna. And again, O king, as medicine puts an end to diseases, so
> does **Nirvâna put an end to griefs**. This is the second quality of
> medicine inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as medicine is
> ambrosia, so **also is Nirvâna ambrosia**. This is the third quality
> of medicine inherent in Nirvâna.'
>
> 69. 'Venerable Nâgasena, those four qualities of the ocean which you said were inherent in Nirvâna,--which are they?'
>
> 'As the ocean, O king, is free from (empty of) corpses, so also is
> Nirvâna free from (**empty of) the dead bodies of all evil
> dispositions**. This, O king, is the first quality of the ocean
> inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as the ocean is mighty and
> boundless, and fills not with all the rivers that flow in to it; so is
> Nirvâna **mighty and boundless, and fills not with all beings (who
> enter in to it**). This is the second quality of the ocean inherent in
> Nirvâna. And again, O king, as the ocean is the abode of mighty
> creatures, so is Nirvâna the abode of great men--Arahats, in whom the
> Great Evils and **all stains have been destroyed**, endowed with
> power, masters of themselves. This is the third quality of the ocean
> inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as the ocean is all in
> blossom, as it were, with the innumerable and various and fine flowers
> of the ripple of its waves, so is Nirvâna all in blossom, as it were,
> with the innumerable and various and fine flowers of **purity, of
> knowledge, and of emancipation**. This is the fourth quality of the
> ocean inherent in Nirvâna.'
>
> 70. 'Venerable Nâgasena, those five qualities of food which you said were inherent in Nirvâna,--which are they?'
>
> 'As food, O king, is the support of the life of all beings, so is
> Nirvâna, when it has been realised, the **support of life**, for it
> puts an end to old age and death. This is the first quality of food
> inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as food increases the strength
> of all beings, so does Nirvâna, when it has been realised, increase
> the power of Iddhi of all beings. This is the second quality of food
> inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as food is the source of the
> beauty of all beings, so is Nirvâna, when it has been realised, the
> source to all beings of the beauty of holiness. This is the third
> quality of food inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as food **puts
> a stop to suffering in all beings, so does Nirvâna, when it has been
> realised, put a stop in all beings to the suffering arising from every
> evil disposition**. This is the fourth quality of food inherent in
> Nirvâna. And again, O king, as food overcomes in all beings the
> weakness of hunger, so does Nirvâna, when it has been realised,
> **overcome in all beings the weakness which arises from hunger and every sort of pain**. This is the fifth quality of food inherent in
> Nirvâna.'
>
> 71. 'Venerable Nâgasena, those ten qualities of space which you said were inherent in Nirvâna,--which are they?'
>
> 'As space, O king, **neither is born nor grows old, neither dies nor
> passes away nor is reborn**, as it is incompressible, cannot be
> carried off by thieves, rests on nothing, is the sphere in which birds
> fly, is unobstructed, and is infinite; so, O king, Nirvâna is not
> born, neither does it grow old, it dies not, it passes not away, it
> has no rebirth, it is **unconquerable**, thieves carry it not off, it
> is **not attached to anything** , it is the sphere in which Arahats
> move, nothing can obstruct it, and it is infinite. These are the ten
> qualities of space inherent in Nirvâna.'
>
> 72. 'Venerable Nâgasena, those three qualities of the wish-conferring gem which you said were inherent in Nirvâna,--which are they?'
>
> 'As the wishing-gem, O king, **satisfies every desire**, so also does
> Nirvâna. This is the first quality of the wishing-gem inherent in
> Nirvâna. And again, O king, as the wishing-gem **causes delight**, so
> also does Nirvâna. This is the second quality of the wishing-gem
> inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as the wishing-gem is **full
> of lustre**, so also is Nirvâna. This is the third quality of the
> wishing-gem inherent in Nirvâna.'
>
> 73. 'Venerable Nâgasena, those three qualities of red sandal wood which you said were inherent in Nirvâna,--which are they?' 'As red
>     sandal wood, O king, is hard to get, so is Nirvâna hard to attain to.
>     This is the first quality of red sandal wood inherent in Nirvâna. And
>     again, O king, as red sandal wood is unequalled in the beauty of its
>     perfume, so is Nirvâna. This is the second quality of red sandal wood
>     inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as red sandal wood is praised
>     by all the good, so is Nirvâna praised by all the Noble Ones. This is
>     the third quality of red sandal wood inherent in Nirvâna.'
> 74. [322] 'Venerable Nâgasena, those three qualities of the skimmings of ghee 1 which you said were inherent in Nirvâna,--which are they?'
>
> 'As ghee is beautiful in colour, O king, so also is Nirvâna
> **beautiful in righteousness**. This is the first quality of the ghee inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as ghee has a pleasant
> perfume, so also has Nirvâna the pleasant perfume of righteousness.
> This is the second quality of ghee inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O
> king, as ghee has a **pleasant taste**, so also has Nirvâna. This is
> the third quality of ghee inherent in Nirvâna.'
>
> 75. 'Venerable Nâgasena, those five qualities of a mountain peak which you said were inherent in Nirvâna,--which are they?'
>
> 'As a mountain peak is **very lofty**, so also is Nirvâna very
> exalted. This is the first quality of a mountain peak inherent in
> Nirvâna. And again, O king, as a mountain peak is **immoveable**, so
> also is Nirvâna. This is the second quality of a mountain peak
> inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as a mountain peak is
> inaccessible, so also is Nirvâna **inaccessible to all evil
> dispositions**. This is the third quality of a mountain peak inherent
> in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as a mountain peak is a place where no
> plants can grow, so also is Nirvâna a condition in which no evil
> dispositions can grow. This is the fourth quality of a mountain peak
> inherent in Nirvâna. And again, O king, as a mountain peak is **free
> alike from desire to please and from resentment**, so also is Nirvâna.
> This is the fifth quality of a mountain peak inherent in Nirvâna.'
>
> 'Very good, Nâgasena! That is so, and I accept it as you say.'

If you are a beginner student to Buddhism, what is important to understand is the words 'birth' & 'death' mean conceiving the thoughts: "I am born" & "I will die", as described in MN 140. Therefore, in Nibbana, there is no birth & no death because there is no view of "I am" or "self".

> The tides of conceiving do not sweep over one who stands upon these
> foundations, and when the tides of conceiving no longer sweep over him
> he is called a sage at peace.’ So it was said. And with reference to
> what was this said?
>
> “Bhikkhu, ‘I am’ is a conceiving; ‘I am this’ is a conceiving; ‘I
> shall be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall not be’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall
> be possessed of form’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be formless’ is a
> conceiving; ‘I shall be percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be
> non-percipient’ is a conceiving; ‘I shall be
> neither-percipient-nor-non-percipient’ is a conceiving. Conceiving is
> a disease, conceiving is a tumour, conceiving is a dart. By overcoming
> all conceivings, bhikkhu, one is called a sage at peace. And the sage
> at peace is not born, does not age, does not die; he is not shaken and
> does not yearn. For there is nothing present in him by which he might
> be born. Not being born, how could he age? Not ageing, how could he
> die? Not dying, how could he be shaken? Not being shaken, why should
> he yearn?
>
> [MN 140](https://suttacentral.net/en/mn140)


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### Answer by username_1 on 2017-12-10. Score: 0

**What it is**

I guess a problem with the kinds of descriptions in the Milinda Pañha is that, so far as I know, Nirvana is a not-thing -- for example an absence of craving and attachment, and unconditioned (not a caused thing).

**What it isn't**

If there's a feeling of spaciousness or limitlessness associated with an absence of form/contraint, that (limitlessness) might remind you of an ocean; however, saying that it's like an ocean implies that (like an ocean) it is substantial.

So I'd start by saying it's not like any "thing", no thing which has a form.

Saying it's "like something" is a weak description because you're likely to want to seize that thing, to examine its form etc.

**Why it's described in both ways**

But as well as being described using negative attributes (e.g. "deathless"), it's also described using positives.

For example it is also described as "an Island" and so on ... I guess the "strength" of that description is that it would be "weak", misleading, unattractive, perhaps incomprehensible to only describe it as "non-existent" ... so it's described in terms of its effect rather than its form (it provides the same effect as an island, i.e. like a rescue from a flood).


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