<p>If you want go for Nirvana, you have to ignore happiness and sad situations. Need to think in middle position.Otherwise without removing ignorance, you should trap into normal life style of human.  </p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2018-04-20T11:32:27.813Z
2018-04-20T11:32:27.813Z
Eranda Peiris
<p>Craving is cut because of the knowledge that craving is a primary cause of suffering. Such knowledge is the cutting of ignorance. </p>

<blockquote>
  <p><em>Not knowing about suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of
  suffering. This is called ignorance.</em></p>
  
  <p><em>SN 12.2; MN 9.</em></p>
</blockquote>

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2018-04-20T12:41:13.947Z
How is it possible that cutting off of craving results in cessation of ignorance?
Dheeraj Verma
CC BY-SA 3.0
2018-04-20T19:55:35.767Z
I didn't post the cutting off of craving results in cessation of ignorance. I posted the cutting of craving depends on the knowledge (non-ignorance) that the cutting of craving brings peace.
Dhamma Dhatu
CC BY-SA 3.0
2018-04-20T12:21:41.247Z
2018-04-20T12:21:41.247Z
Dhamma Dhatu
<p>Ignorance (<em>avijjā</em>) can be understood as ignorance about the Four Noble Truths, which indirectly includes ignorance about the three marks of existence: impermanence (<em>anicca</em>), unsatisfactoriness (<em>dukkha</em>) and non-self (<em>anattā</em>). If you manage to get rid of craving, that probably means that you have removed your ignorance about <em>dukkha</em>, but not necessarily about the other two.</p>

<p>Dependent origination is a difficult topic with a lot of different interpretations. The way I see it, I think it's helpful to look at it from the perspective of removing ignorance about <em>anattā</em>, and not about <em>dukkha</em>. If it was about <em>dukkha</em>, removing the link between sensation (<em>vedana</em>) and craving (<em>taṇhā</em>) would indeed make more sense as the starting point.</p>

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2018-04-20T12:16:46.940Z
While this answer is actually very thoughtful, i marked it down because dependent origination teaches ignorance is not seeing the four noble truths and does not mention anatta at all. Not knowing about suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. This is called ignorance. SN 12.2; MN 9.
Dhamma Dhatu
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2018-04-20T12:48:11.870Z
@Dhammadhatu Removing ignorance about the four noble truths implies removing ignorance about the noble eightfold path, which implies removing ignorance about the right view and the right mindfulness, which implies removing ignorance about *anattā*. I'm not saying dependent origination is **only** about *anattā*, I'm just saying that it makes most sense, at least to me, when you look at it from the perspective of removing ignorance about *anattā*.
kami
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2018-04-20T12:55:01.777Z
@Dhammadhatu But in any case, thanks for pointing out the exact meaning of ignorance in this context; I updated my answer to be more explicit.
kami
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2018-04-20T19:51:55.880Z
It does change your answer. Your answer remains incorrect doctrinally. The word 'dukkha' in the four noble truths does not have the same meaning as the word 'dukkha' in the three characteristics. If you read SN 22.59, the last part says the realisation of the three characteristics results in the destruction of craving. Therefore, the important thing is to end craving; as the 3rd noble truth says.
Dhamma Dhatu
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2018-04-20T21:12:20.090Z
@Dhammadhatu In my answer I use the word *dukkha* only in the context of the three characteristics. Perhaps it has another meaning in the 3rd noble truth, but what does it change here? Also note that “craving”, both in the question and my answer, specifically means *taṇhā*, one of the twelve *nidānas*. SN 22.59 doesn't mention *taṇhā* at all, so I cannot see how it is relevant.
kami
CC BY-SA 3.0
2018-04-20T11:59:04.970Z
2018-04-20T12:52:31.483Z
2018-04-20T12:52:31.483Z
kami
<p>Maybe you've heard of the old South Indian Monkey Trap (from <a href="https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/nov/14/how-to-avoid-monkey-trap-oliver-burkeman" rel="noreferrer">this article</a>):</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>In <a href="https://rads.stackoverflow.com/amzn/click/0060589469" rel="noreferrer">Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance</a>, Robert Pirsig’s
  bonkers-but-brilliant philosophical novel that turns 40 this year, he
  describes “the old South Indian Monkey Trap”. ... The trap
  “consists of a hollowed-out coconut, chained to a stake. The coconut
  has some rice inside which can be grabbed through a small hole”. The
  monkey’s hand fits through the hole, but his clenched fist can’t fit
  back out. “The monkey is suddenly trapped.” But not by anything
  physical. He’s trapped by an idea, unable to see that a principle that
  served him well – “when you see rice, hold on tight!” – has become
  lethal.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>The monkey needs to let go of the rice in order to free himself from his suffering. The way to end his suffering, is to end his craving for rice.</p>

<p>But in order to end his craving for rice, he must first understand how his hand is stuck inside the coconut. When the monkey overcomes his ignorance about how the trap works, he would let go of his craving for rice, and release his clenched fist. With this, he would be free from his suffering.</p>

<p>Also you can say that the monkey's suffering originated with his ignorance of the trap.</p>

<p><a href="https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/nov/14/how-to-avoid-monkey-trap-oliver-burkeman" rel="noreferrer"><img src="https://i.sstatic.net/YNJMJ.jpg" alt="The old South Indian Monkey Trap"></a>
(Illustration above: Paul Thurlby for the Guardian)</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2018-04-19T03:57:29.130Z
It seems dependent origination begins at ignorance and then immediately goes to the next step of removing craving. We don't need volitional formations as the result of ignorance. We need craving as a result of ignorance.
Dheeraj Verma
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2018-04-19T23:17:38.823Z
@DheerajVerma The old South Indian Monkey Trap is a simplified analogy that I used to explain the relationship between ignorance, craving and suffering. It's not a complete explanation of dependent origination.
ruben2020
CC BY-SA 3.0
2018-04-18T16:02:35.130Z
2018-04-18T16:35:24.583Z
2018-04-18T16:35:24.583Z
ruben2020
<p>The reason why you crave is because of ignorance. When you have a pleasurable experience, you like it because you do not see the Dukkha(suffering) nature of it. Without getting rid of ignorance, you cannot get rid of craving.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2018-04-18T14:53:47.663Z
Ok. But since we can only "practically" break the origination of suffering by cutting off craving , why do we need to begin with Ignorance then Volitional formations then consciousness etc in dependent origination. We can simply say with origin of craving comes origin of attachement,continuation , birth and suffering and with cessation of craving comes cessation of attachement , continuation ,birth and suffering.. I don't see any need for a beginning from Ignorance leading to volitional formations , consciousness , name-form etc...
Dheeraj Verma
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2018-04-18T15:00:30.710Z
Without working on ignorance, how would you work on cutting off craving?
Sankha Kulathantille
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2018-04-18T15:38:47.040Z
how do you uproot ignorance ?
Dheeraj Verma
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2018-04-18T16:40:53.253Z
Ignorance really means the lack of wisdom. So you need to cultivate wisdom using right mindfulness.
Sankha Kulathantille
CC BY-SA 3.0
2018-04-19T03:49:15.687Z
If that is so then dependent origination begins with mindfullessness. With the arising of mindfullessness arises ignorance and with cessation of mindfullessness ceases ignorance...(mindfullessness means lack of mindfulness)
Dheeraj Verma
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2018-04-19T03:52:36.213Z
Which wisdom do I need to collect ? ( Please give an example which will lead to cessation of ignorance)
Dheeraj Verma
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2018-04-19T03:59:50.483Z
Mindfulness is Samma Sati. It's not ignorance. You got it in reverse.
Sankha Kulathantille
CC BY-SA 3.0
2018-04-19T04:06:34.733Z
I agree. I invented the word mindfullessness to represent lack of mindfulness. I am talking about mindfullessness.
Dheeraj Verma
CC BY-SA 3.0
2018-04-19T04:07:11.210Z
Realizing the four noble truths with direct knowledge is the wisdom required to cut off craving and end suffering.
Sankha Kulathantille
CC BY-SA 3.0
2018-04-19T04:16:08.280Z
Great. I understood that. The dependent origination says cessation of ignorance leads to cessation of volitional formations. Where as cessation of ignorance leads to cessation of craving directly. We don't need cessation of consciousness in between. The dependent origination should be Ignorance leads to craving leads to attachment leads to existence leads to birth etc...why do we need unnecessary steps like volitional formations and consciousness ?
Dheeraj Verma
CC BY-SA 3.0
2018-04-19T04:55:54.940Z
The standard explanation of Dependant Origination is spanned over 3 lives. Past, present and future. The volitional formation there refers to your birth karma. It explains how one keeps on extending Samsara. If we skip the steps in between, it wouldn't make sense in that way.
Sankha Kulathantille
CC BY-SA 3.0
2018-04-19T05:06:03.603Z
can u provide the link to the standard explanation of dependent origination over 3 lives ? Thanks.
Dheeraj Verma
CC BY-SA 3.0
2018-04-19T05:09:49.573Z
[paticca-samuppāda](http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/paticca_samuppaada.htm)
Sankha Kulathantille
CC BY-SA 3.0
2018-04-18T14:44:46.357Z
2018-04-18T14:44:46.357Z
Sankha Kulathantille
<p>Namo Buddhaya.
I am learning dependent origination.</p>

<p>If we follow the dependent origination strictly then by cutting off craving , the attachment ceases to be and with cessation of attachment, continuation ceases to be and with cessation of continuation , birth ceases to be and with cessation of birth , the suffering ceases to be. As the suffering ceases, Nirvana is attained.</p>

<p>In the above sequence of happenings we do not need to mention Ignorance. However we know that dependent origination begins with Ignorance. </p>

<p>My question is : can we reach to Nirvana ,without removing ignorance and just by cutting off craving ? Or is cutting off of the craving is same as removing the ignorance?</p>

<pratityasamutpada>
Can we reach Nirvana without removing ignorance?
# Can we reach Nirvana without removing ignorance?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2018-04-18)

Namo Buddhaya.
I am learning dependent origination.

If we follow the dependent origination strictly then by cutting off craving , the attachment ceases to be and with cessation of attachment, continuation ceases to be and with cessation of continuation , birth ceases to be and with cessation of birth , the suffering ceases to be. As the suffering ceases, Nirvana is attained.

In the above sequence of happenings we do not need to mention Ignorance. However we know that dependent origination begins with Ignorance.

My question is : can we reach to Nirvana ,without removing ignorance and just by cutting off craving ? Or is cutting off of the craving is same as removing the ignorance?

**Tags:** pratityasamutpada


---

## 5 answers

### Answer by username_4 on 2018-04-18. Score: 5

Maybe you've heard of the old South Indian Monkey Trap (from [this article](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/nov/14/how-to-avoid-monkey-trap-oliver-burkeman)):

> In [Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance](https://rads.stackoverflow.com/amzn/click/0060589469), Robert Pirsig’s
> bonkers-but-brilliant philosophical novel that turns 40 this year, he
> describes “the old South Indian Monkey Trap”. ... The trap
> “consists of a hollowed-out coconut, chained to a stake. The coconut
> has some rice inside which can be grabbed through a small hole”. The
> monkey’s hand fits through the hole, but his clenched fist can’t fit
> back out. “The monkey is suddenly trapped.” But not by anything
> physical. He’s trapped by an idea, unable to see that a principle that
> served him well – “when you see rice, hold on tight!” – has become
> lethal.

The monkey needs to let go of the rice in order to free himself from his suffering. The way to end his suffering, is to end his craving for rice.

But in order to end his craving for rice, he must first understand how his hand is stuck inside the coconut. When the monkey overcomes his ignorance about how the trap works, he would let go of his craving for rice, and release his clenched fist. With this, he would be free from his suffering.

Also you can say that the monkey's suffering originated with his ignorance of the trap.

[![The old South Indian Monkey Trap](https://i.sstatic.net/YNJMJ.jpg)](https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/nov/14/how-to-avoid-monkey-trap-oliver-burkeman)
(Illustration above: Paul Thurlby for the Guardian)

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: It seems dependent origination begins at ignorance and then immediately goes to the next step of removing craving. We don't need volitional formations as the result of ignorance. We need craving as a result of ignorance.  
> **username_4**: @DheerajVerma The old South Indian Monkey Trap is a simplified analogy that I used to explain the relationship between ignorance, craving and suffering. It's not a complete explanation of dependent origination.  

---

### Answer by username_5 on 2018-04-18. Score: 3

The reason why you crave is because of ignorance. When you have a pleasurable experience, you like it because you do not see the Dukkha(suffering) nature of it. Without getting rid of ignorance, you cannot get rid of craving.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Ok. But since we can only "practically" break the origination of suffering by cutting off craving , why do we need to begin with Ignorance then Volitional formations then consciousness etc in dependent origination. We can simply say with origin of craving comes origin of attachement,continuation , birth and suffering and with cessation of craving comes cessation of attachement , continuation ,birth and suffering.. I don't see any need for a beginning from Ignorance leading to volitional formations , consciousness , name-form etc...  
> **username_5**: Without working on ignorance, how would you work on cutting off craving?  
> **username_0**: how do you uproot ignorance ?  
> **username_5**: Ignorance really means the lack of wisdom. So you need to cultivate wisdom using right mindfulness.  
> **username_0**: If that is so then dependent origination begins with mindfullessness. With the arising of mindfullessness arises ignorance and with cessation of mindfullessness ceases ignorance...(mindfullessness means lack of mindfulness)  
> **username_0**: Which wisdom do I need to collect ? ( Please give an example which will lead to cessation of ignorance)  
> **username_5**: Mindfulness is Samma Sati. It's not ignorance. You got it in reverse.  
> **username_0**: I agree. I invented the word mindfullessness to represent lack of mindfulness. I am talking about mindfullessness.  
> **username_5**: Realizing the four noble truths with direct knowledge is the wisdom required to cut off craving and end suffering.  
> **username_0**: Great. I understood that. The dependent origination says cessation of ignorance leads to cessation of volitional formations. Where as cessation of ignorance leads to cessation of craving directly. We don't need cessation of consciousness in between. The dependent origination should be Ignorance leads to craving leads to attachment leads to existence leads to birth etc...why do we need unnecessary steps like volitional formations and consciousness ?  
> **username_5**: The standard explanation of Dependant Origination is spanned over 3 lives. Past, present and future. The volitional formation there refers to your birth karma. It explains how one keeps on extending Samsara. If we skip the steps in between, it wouldn't make sense in that way.  
> **username_0**: can u provide the link to the standard explanation of dependent origination over 3 lives ? Thanks.  
> **username_5**: [paticca-samuppāda](http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/paticca_samuppaada.htm)  

---

### Answer by username_1 on 2018-04-20. Score: 0

If you want go for Nirvana, you have to ignore happiness and sad situations. Need to think in middle position.Otherwise without removing ignorance, you should trap into normal life style of human.


---

### Answer by username_2 on 2018-04-20. Score: 0

Craving is cut because of the knowledge that craving is a primary cause of suffering. Such knowledge is the cutting of ignorance.

> *Not knowing about suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of
> suffering. This is called ignorance.*
>
> *SN 12.2; MN 9.*

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: How is it possible that cutting off of craving results in cessation of ignorance?  
> **username_2**: I didn't post the cutting off of craving results in cessation of ignorance. I posted the cutting of craving depends on the knowledge (non-ignorance) that the cutting of craving brings peace.  

---

### Answer by username_3 on 2018-04-20. Score: 0

Ignorance (*avijjā*) can be understood as ignorance about the Four Noble Truths, which indirectly includes ignorance about the three marks of existence: impermanence (*anicca*), unsatisfactoriness (*dukkha*) and non-self (*anattā*). If you manage to get rid of craving, that probably means that you have removed your ignorance about *dukkha*, but not necessarily about the other two.

Dependent origination is a difficult topic with a lot of different interpretations. The way I see it, I think it's helpful to look at it from the perspective of removing ignorance about *anattā*, and not about *dukkha*. If it was about *dukkha*, removing the link between sensation (*vedana*) and craving (*taṇhā*) would indeed make more sense as the starting point.

> **Comments:**
> **username_2**: While this answer is actually very thoughtful, i marked it down because dependent origination teaches ignorance is not seeing the four noble truths and does not mention anatta at all. Not knowing about suffering, the origin of suffering, the cessation of suffering, and the practice that leads to the cessation of suffering. This is called ignorance. SN 12.2; MN 9.  
> **username_3**: @Dhammadhatu Removing ignorance about the four noble truths implies removing ignorance about the noble eightfold path, which implies removing ignorance about the right view and the right mindfulness, which implies removing ignorance about *anattā*. I'm not saying dependent origination is **only** about *anattā*, I'm just saying that it makes most sense, at least to me, when you look at it from the perspective of removing ignorance about *anattā*.  
> **username_3**: @Dhammadhatu But in any case, thanks for pointing out the exact meaning of ignorance in this context; I updated my answer to be more explicit.  
> **username_2**: It does change your answer. Your answer remains incorrect doctrinally. The word 'dukkha' in the four noble truths does not have the same meaning as the word 'dukkha' in the three characteristics. If you read SN 22.59, the last part says the realisation of the three characteristics results in the destruction of craving. Therefore, the important thing is to end craving; as the 3rd noble truth says.  
> **username_3**: @Dhammadhatu In my answer I use the word *dukkha* only in the context of the three characteristics. Perhaps it has another meaning in the 3rd noble truth, but what does it change here? Also note that “craving”, both in the question and my answer, specifically means *taṇhā*, one of the twelve *nidānas*. SN 22.59 doesn't mention *taṇhā* at all, so I cannot see how it is relevant.  

---

