<p>Nibbana is experienced when the mind (including consciousness) is free of defilements. So, there is no permanent cessation of consciousness for the living arahant, unless you mean the cessation of defiled consciousness.</p>
<p>This is also known as Nibbana element with residue left or Unbinding property with fuel remaining, from <a href="https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.2.028-049.than.html#iti-044" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Iti 44</a>. The residue or fuel remaining refers to the undefiled aggregates including consciousness.</p>
<p>Ven. Thanissaro's commentary on <a href="https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.2.028-049.than.html#iti-044" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Iti 44</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>With fuel remaining (<em>sa-upadisesa</em>) and with no fuel remaining
(<em>anupadisesa</em>): The analogy here is to a fire. In the first case, the
flames are out, but the embers are still glowing. In the second, the
fire is so thoroughly out that the embers have grown cold. The &quot;fuel&quot;
here is the five aggregates. While the arahant is
still alive, he/she still experiences the five aggregates, but they do
not burn with the fires of passion, aversion, or delusion. When the
arahant passes away, there is no longer any experience of aggregates
here or anywhere else.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Or do you mean <a href="http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/nirodha_samaapatti.htm" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Nirodha Samapatti</a>? In this state, the person entering Nirodha Samapatti would have temporary complete cessation of consciousness.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Nirodha Samapatti:<br />
'attainment of extinction' (S. XIV, 11), also called
<em>saññā-vedayita-nirodha</em>, 'extinction of feeling and perception', is the
temporary suspension of all consciousness and mental activity,
following immediately upon the semi-conscious state called 'sphere of
neither-perception-nor-non-perception' (s. <em>jhāna</em>, 8).</p>
</blockquote>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-05-22T12:51:32.280Z
@Buddhism What I meant by my answer is that the Nibbana element with residue has consciousness still functioning for the arahant. It's only defiled consciousness  that has ceased permanently. However, any person who enters the state of nirodha samapatti would have temporary complete cessation of consciousness in that state. I did not say that nirodha samapatti is needed or not needed. And on that note, there are instances in the suttas where individuals who are already advanced, become anagamis or arahants just after listening to a discourse by the Buddha, like Bahiya.
ruben2020
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-05-22T12:55:50.497Z
@Buddhism I have deleted the criteria for attainment of nirodha samapatti from the quote because it is unrelated to the OP's question.
ruben2020
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-05-19T03:43:00.427Z
2021-05-22T13:04:01.683Z
2021-05-22T13:04:01.683Z
ruben2020
<p>I am assuming you are referring to a passage in the Heart Sutra:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Shariputra, form does not differ from emptiness, emptiness does not
differ from form. That which is form is emptiness, that which is
emptiness form. The same is true of feelings, perceptions, impulses,
<strong>consciousness</strong>.</p>
<p>Shariputra, all dharmas are marked with emptiness; they do not appear
or disappear, are not tainted or pure, do not increase or decrease.
Therefore, in emptiness <strong>no form, no feelings, perceptions, impulses,
consciousness</strong>.</p>
<p>No eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind; no color, no
sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no object of mind; no realm of
eyes and so forth until <strong>no realm of mind consciousness</strong>. No ignorance
and also no extinction of it, and so forth until no old age and death
and also no extinction of them. No suffering, no origination, no
stopping, no path, no cognition, also no attainment with nothing to
attain.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Emptiness in this Sutra refers not to nothingness, but to the opposite: the interdependence of all phenomena, both mental and physical. There is some discussion among scholars on whether the sutra originated in China or India, to answer your question I'll use the Chinese/Japanese characters.</p>
<p>In Chinese and Japanese, emptiness is often represented by the character <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(negative)" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><em>mu</em> 無</a>, which also means &quot;no&quot; or &quot;negative&quot;. We don't have an exact equivalent in English for <em>mu</em>, so the Sutra loses something of its inner meaning by just using &quot;no&quot;.</p>
<p>The sutra is not stating that there is &quot;no X in Y&quot; but inferring that X = Y. Otherwise said, there is no such thing as &quot;consciousness&quot; that is independently existing, it is a manifestation of emptiness.</p>
<p>The sutra goes on giving some examples that are linked to consciousness: sight, hearing, smell, etc. These examples refer to the state of mind where one would &quot;listen, but not hear&quot; as they say in Zen: that is, the senses function, but the mind does not name the perceptions. It's like saying: &quot;sense it, but don't name it in your head&quot;. Because once you name it, it's no longer the perception, but your <em>mental interpretation</em> of the perception. This is what is meant in Mahayana by the expression &quot;emptiness is the mother of ten thousand named things&quot;.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-05-19T10:25:31.973Z
The last expression sounds like a quote from the Tao Te Ching -- is it Mahayana also?
ChrisW
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-05-19T11:52:50.940Z
I remember reading the quote in a Chan master's writings - Chan was heavily influenced by Daoism. I had to look up the text, but yes, it is referred to in the Xinxin Ming: *"If the eye never sleeps, all dreams will naturally cease.  If the mind makes no discriminations, the ten thousand things are as they are, of single essence.  To understand the mystery of this One-essence is to be released from all entanglements.  When all things are seen equally, the timeless Self-essence is reached.  No comparisons or analogies are possible in this causeless, relationless state."*
Codosaur
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-05-19T13:19:52.513Z
I'd read it was influenced, only I was surprised to see in that expression such a direct quote from the first lines of the [Tao Te Ching](https://www.with.org/tao_te_ching_en.pdf).
ChrisW
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-05-19T08:33:08.740Z
2021-05-19T08:33:08.740Z
Codosaur
<p>It seems to me that theoretically one could see the no consciousness of Nibbana from a point in time i.e. from &quot;outside&quot; no consciousness but looking into no consciousness.</p>
<p>The seeing would have to be &quot;supramundane&quot; though because otherwise it would be mere fantasy.</p>
<p>One would need to make sure that the seeing isn't delusion.</p>
<p>Note: I am not denying that there is also the &quot;experience&quot; of no consciousness from &quot;inside&quot;.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-05-24T21:30:55.107Z
I guess the main thing I am trying to convey is that it seems possible but I don't know how.
Angus
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-05-20T21:52:37.627Z
2021-05-21T02:53:14.443Z
2021-05-21T02:53:14.443Z
Angus
<p>Here's a Mahayana explanation.</p>
<p>I suppose you were thinking about the twelve nidanas and how the whole chain, including vijnana, ceases with cessation of ignorance?</p>
<p>Please know that &quot;vijnana&quot; is strictly speaking <em>not</em> consciousness. That's a very approximate translation. Depending on context vijnana should be translated as either &quot;experience of world and the objects&quot; or more technically as &quot;semiosis&quot;.</p>
<p>Please look up this word. Semiosis means interpretation of signs into their meanings. Like when you hear a certain sound and you recognize that as e.g. barking of dog. This is the foundation of all (regular, unenlightened) mental processes, they all have semiosis at the bottom.</p>
<p>But enlightened mind does not function like that. It is capable of semiosis as a kind of &quot;backward compatibility mode&quot; but that's not its main <em>modus operandi</em>.</p>
<p>Enlightened mind's state is not discrete. It's not prone to jumping to conclusions. When it hears what you recognize as &quot;barking of dog&quot; it takes that as information that may potentially have a number of interpretations but it doesn't conclude on any of them, it keeps its options open. It never concludes on an interpretation and that's exactly why it never gets out of sync, and <em>that</em> is why it's not subject to suffering.</p>
<p>Enlightened mind is not &quot;vijnana&quot;. When ignorance ends, &quot;vijnana&quot;, the crude semiotic mind, dissolves. At that time the fundamental mind of enlightenment (&quot;rigpa&quot; in Tibetan) that has always been there is no longer obscured by the discrete forms of regular mind. The mind of enlightenment is not unconscious - it knows everything the regular mind knew, and more. It's just a different <em>kind</em> of knowledge, formless interconnected simultaneous knowledge (&quot;prajna&quot;) - as opposed to the crude &quot;this means that&quot; of semiosis.</p>
<p>So there's no contradiction. When ignorance ends - vijnana ends and the primordial clarity known as rigpa or prajna is unveiled. This clarity is what &quot;knows&quot; the cessation of regular mind.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-05-21T16:30:54.607Z
@NeuroMax what exactly do you mean by "have" in "have a context"? Vijnana can be used in context of the twelve nidanas or it can be used in context of the five skandhas or it can be used in general Buddhist context as a synonym of defiled mind.
Andriy Volkov
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-05-21T18:18:53.823Z
Being "not quite sure" is a step in the right direction :)
Andriy Volkov
CC BY-SA 4.0
2021-05-21T02:49:12.767Z
2021-05-21T02:55:49.517Z
2021-05-21T02:55:49.517Z
Andriy Volkov
<p>How could one know that Nibbana is the cessation of consciousness if there is no consciousness?</p>
<p>I can't see how one could know.</p>

<pratityasamutpada>
How could one know that Nibbana is the cessation of consciousness if there is no consciousness?
# How could one know that Nibbana is the cessation of consciousness if there is no consciousness?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2021-05-18)

How could one know that Nibbana is the cessation of consciousness if there is no consciousness?

I can't see how one could know.

**Tags:** pratityasamutpada


---

## 4 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2021-05-19. Score: 3

Nibbana is experienced when the mind (including consciousness) is free of defilements. So, there is no permanent cessation of consciousness for the living arahant, unless you mean the cessation of defiled consciousness.

This is also known as Nibbana element with residue left or Unbinding property with fuel remaining, from [Iti 44](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.2.028-049.than.html#iti-044). The residue or fuel remaining refers to the undefiled aggregates including consciousness.

Ven. Thanissaro's commentary on [Iti 44](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/iti/iti.2.028-049.than.html#iti-044):

> With fuel remaining (*sa-upadisesa*) and with no fuel remaining
> (*anupadisesa*): The analogy here is to a fire. In the first case, the
> flames are out, but the embers are still glowing. In the second, the
> fire is so thoroughly out that the embers have grown cold. The "fuel"
> here is the five aggregates. While the arahant is
> still alive, he/she still experiences the five aggregates, but they do
> not burn with the fires of passion, aversion, or delusion. When the
> arahant passes away, there is no longer any experience of aggregates
> here or anywhere else.

Or do you mean [Nirodha Samapatti](http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/nirodha_samaapatti.htm)? In this state, the person entering Nirodha Samapatti would have temporary complete cessation of consciousness.

> Nirodha Samapatti:  
> 'attainment of extinction' (S. XIV, 11), also called
> *saññā-vedayita-nirodha*, 'extinction of feeling and perception', is the
> temporary suspension of all consciousness and mental activity,
> following immediately upon the semi-conscious state called 'sphere of
> neither-perception-nor-non-perception' (s. *jhāna*, 8).

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: @Buddhism What I meant by my answer is that the Nibbana element with residue has consciousness still functioning for the arahant. It's only defiled consciousness  that has ceased permanently. However, any person who enters the state of nirodha samapatti would have temporary complete cessation of consciousness in that state. I did not say that nirodha samapatti is needed or not needed. And on that note, there are instances in the suttas where individuals who are already advanced, become anagamis or arahants just after listening to a discourse by the Buddha, like Bahiya.  
> **username_1**: @Buddhism I have deleted the criteria for attainment of nirodha samapatti from the quote because it is unrelated to the OP's question.  

---

### Answer by username_2 on 2021-05-19. Score: 0

I am assuming you are referring to a passage in the Heart Sutra:

> Shariputra, form does not differ from emptiness, emptiness does not
> differ from form. That which is form is emptiness, that which is
> emptiness form. The same is true of feelings, perceptions, impulses,
> **consciousness**.
>
> Shariputra, all dharmas are marked with emptiness; they do not appear
> or disappear, are not tainted or pure, do not increase or decrease.
> Therefore, in emptiness **no form, no feelings, perceptions, impulses,
> consciousness**.
>
> No eyes, no ears, no nose, no tongue, no body, no mind; no color, no
> sound, no smell, no taste, no touch, no object of mind; no realm of
> eyes and so forth until **no realm of mind consciousness**. No ignorance
> and also no extinction of it, and so forth until no old age and death
> and also no extinction of them. No suffering, no origination, no
> stopping, no path, no cognition, also no attainment with nothing to
> attain.

Emptiness in this Sutra refers not to nothingness, but to the opposite: the interdependence of all phenomena, both mental and physical. There is some discussion among scholars on whether the sutra originated in China or India, to answer your question I'll use the Chinese/Japanese characters.

In Chinese and Japanese, emptiness is often represented by the character [*mu* 無](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mu_(negative)), which also means "no" or "negative". We don't have an exact equivalent in English for *mu*, so the Sutra loses something of its inner meaning by just using "no".

The sutra is not stating that there is "no X in Y" but inferring that X = Y. Otherwise said, there is no such thing as "consciousness" that is independently existing, it is a manifestation of emptiness.

The sutra goes on giving some examples that are linked to consciousness: sight, hearing, smell, etc. These examples refer to the state of mind where one would "listen, but not hear" as they say in Zen: that is, the senses function, but the mind does not name the perceptions. It's like saying: "sense it, but don't name it in your head". Because once you name it, it's no longer the perception, but your *mental interpretation* of the perception. This is what is meant in Mahayana by the expression "emptiness is the mother of ten thousand named things".

> **Comments:**
> **username_3**: The last expression sounds like a quote from the Tao Te Ching -- is it Mahayana also?  
> **username_2**: I remember reading the quote in a Chan master's writings - Chan was heavily influenced by Daoism. I had to look up the text, but yes, it is referred to in the Xinxin Ming: *"If the eye never sleeps, all dreams will naturally cease.  If the mind makes no discriminations, the ten thousand things are as they are, of single essence.  To understand the mystery of this One-essence is to be released from all entanglements.  When all things are seen equally, the timeless Self-essence is reached.  No comparisons or analogies are possible in this causeless, relationless state."*  
> **username_3**: I'd read it was influenced, only I was surprised to see in that expression such a direct quote from the first lines of the [Tao Te Ching](https://www.with.org/tao_te_ching_en.pdf).  

---

### Answer by username_0 on 2021-05-20. Score: 0

It seems to me that theoretically one could see the no consciousness of Nibbana from a point in time i.e. from "outside" no consciousness but looking into no consciousness.

The seeing would have to be "supramundane" though because otherwise it would be mere fantasy.

One would need to make sure that the seeing isn't delusion.

Note: I am not denying that there is also the "experience" of no consciousness from "inside".

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: I guess the main thing I am trying to convey is that it seems possible but I don't know how.  

---

### Answer by username_4 on 2021-05-21. Score: 0

Here's a Mahayana explanation.

I suppose you were thinking about the twelve nidanas and how the whole chain, including vijnana, ceases with cessation of ignorance?

Please know that "vijnana" is strictly speaking *not* consciousness. That's a very approximate translation. Depending on context vijnana should be translated as either "experience of world and the objects" or more technically as "semiosis".

Please look up this word. Semiosis means interpretation of signs into their meanings. Like when you hear a certain sound and you recognize that as e.g. barking of dog. This is the foundation of all (regular, unenlightened) mental processes, they all have semiosis at the bottom.

But enlightened mind does not function like that. It is capable of semiosis as a kind of "backward compatibility mode" but that's not its main *modus operandi*.

Enlightened mind's state is not discrete. It's not prone to jumping to conclusions. When it hears what you recognize as "barking of dog" it takes that as information that may potentially have a number of interpretations but it doesn't conclude on any of them, it keeps its options open. It never concludes on an interpretation and that's exactly why it never gets out of sync, and *that* is why it's not subject to suffering.

Enlightened mind is not "vijnana". When ignorance ends, "vijnana", the crude semiotic mind, dissolves. At that time the fundamental mind of enlightenment ("rigpa" in Tibetan) that has always been there is no longer obscured by the discrete forms of regular mind. The mind of enlightenment is not unconscious - it knows everything the regular mind knew, and more. It's just a different *kind* of knowledge, formless interconnected simultaneous knowledge ("prajna") - as opposed to the crude "this means that" of semiosis.

So there's no contradiction. When ignorance ends - vijnana ends and the primordial clarity known as rigpa or prajna is unveiled. This clarity is what "knows" the cessation of regular mind.

> **Comments:**
> **username_4**: @NeuroMax what exactly do you mean by "have" in "have a context"? Vijnana can be used in context of the twelve nidanas or it can be used in context of the five skandhas or it can be used in general Buddhist context as a synonym of defiled mind.  
> **username_4**: Being "not quite sure" is a step in the right direction :)  

---

