<p>An example is there in the paticca-samuppada itself.</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>Vedana Paccaya Tanha</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Feeling gives rise to craving. 
So in reality there's no "I like icecream". </p>

<p>It should be </p>

<ul>
<li>liking arises due to taste</li>
<li>liking arises due to sight</li>
<li>liking arises due to sound etc. </li>
</ul>

<p>There's no practicing Anatta. You practice mindfulness and the Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta natures are revealed. Practicing the noble eightfold path leads to the cutting off of craving and cessation of suffering. Mindfulness is a part of the noble eightfold path.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2018-04-20T15:47:21.473Z
You have explained what gives rise to craving but you have not defined what is craving? Give me examples of craving.
Dheeraj Verma
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2018-04-20T15:49:24.813Z
craving is the liking itself. Liking for sights, sounds, smells, tastes etc. are examples
Sankha Kulathantille
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2018-04-20T16:12:01.743Z
Ok. You are saying liking arises.No self is involved.It is a fact that liking can not be separated from what is liked.I like a girl. You say I do not exist. Based on that it is obvious that the girl also doesn't exist. Now you are saying that only liking arises and no self arises. That is impossible because you are separating girl from the liking of the girl. That can not happen. You are making arising causeless.
Dheeraj Verma
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2018-04-20T16:16:02.587Z
Girl is not real. What you call a 'girl' is just sights, sounds, tactile sensations etc. Liking is different from what is liked. Ex: sound(physical) is different from the liking(mental) that arises due to sound.
Sankha Kulathantille
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2018-04-20T20:55:49.810Z
I referred to SN 12.12 in my answer, which explains what Sankha Kulathantille sought to explain. Craving arises before the idea of "I". Also, the idea of "a girl" is "birth" ("jati"), i.e., the production (abhinibbatti) of ideas  of "beings"  (sattānaṃ) from the superficial appearance of the aggregates (khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo). Dependent origination is something very subtle. There are twelve conditions. The idea of: "I like & want a girl" spans the five conditions of feeling, craving, attachment, becoming & birth. It is not merely the one condition of craving.
Dhamma Dhatu
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2018-04-20T15:36:43.367Z
2018-04-20T20:51:56.957Z
2018-04-20T20:51:56.957Z
Sankha Kulathantille
<p>When the thought arises: "<em>I want ice cream</em>", the "<em>want</em>" is fueled by craving (<em>tanha</em>) but the arising of the idea of "I" is attachment (<em>upadana</em>) and becoming (<em>bhava</em>) rather than craving (<em>tanha</em>). The Mahayana sutra you are studying says:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p><em>There are four attachments: attachment to sense pleasures, attachment to views, attachment to virtue and practice, attachment to
  <strong>self</strong>-theories.</em></p>
</blockquote>

<p>The Pali suttas distinguish between craving and becoming, as follows: </p>

<blockquote>
  <p><em>The craving that makes for further <strong>becoming</strong> — accompanied by passion &amp; delight, relishing now here &amp; now there — i.e., craving for sensual
  pleasure, craving to be, craving not to be: This, friend
  Visakha, is the origination of <strong>self-identification</strong> described by the
  Blessed One.</em></p>
  
  <p><em>MN 44</em></p>
</blockquote>

<p>For self-identification or suffering to arise, craving alone is not enough. As described in MN 44, above, for self-identification or suffering to arise, the craving must lead to new becoming (<em>bhava</em>). The idea of 'I' or 'I exist' is becoming. </p>

<p>Here, suttas such as <a href="https://wwiw.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.nypo.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">SN 12.12</a> and <a href="https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.148.than.html" rel="nofollow noreferrer">MN 148</a> clearly explain the idea of "I" arises after the arising of craving and that there can be craving without the idea of "I". Therefore, craving can be defined without mentioning self, as follows:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p><em>Venerable sir, who craves?</em></p>
  
  <p><em>“Not a valid question,” the Blessed One replied. “I do not say, ‘One craves.’ Since I do not speak thus, if one should ask me,
  ‘Venerable sir, with what as condition does craving come to be?’ this
  would be a valid question. To this the valid answer is: ‘<strong>With feeling
  as condition, craving comes to be</strong>; with craving as condition,
  clinging; with clinging as condition, becoming…. Such is the origin
  of this whole mass of suffering.’</em></p>
  
  <p><em>SN 12.12</em></p>
</blockquote>

<p>It follows the non-understanding of anatta is not at the root of craving; even though the realisation of anatta, together with the realisation of impermanence (<em>anicca</em>) &amp; unsatisfactoriness (<em>dukkha</em>), will end craving. </p>

<p>If the mind realises the aggregates as 'worthless' (as described in <a href="https://suttacentral.net/sn22.95/en/bodhi" rel="nofollow noreferrer">SN 22.95</a>) there will certainly be revulsion and dispassion which is nothing but the end of craving. However the realisation of the aggregates as "worthless" is not 'anatta'. It is 'unsatisfactoriness' ('dukkha'). In other words, ideas of "I" could still possibly arise even though the aggregates are declared as worthless (<a href="https://suttacentral.net/define/as%C4%81ra" rel="nofollow noreferrer"><em>asāra</em></a>). </p>

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2018-04-20T20:00:21.903Z
2018-04-20T21:03:41.643Z
2018-04-20T21:03:41.643Z
Dhamma Dhatu
<p>Namo Buddhaya. </p>

<p>According to the Mahayana <a href="https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/English-Texts/Short-Pieces-in-Sanskrit/Conditional-Origination.htm" rel="nofollow noreferrer">Pratityasamutpadavibhanganirdesa Sutra</a>, there are three cravings: craving for the sense-realm, craving for the form-realm, and craving for the formless-realm. But I couldn't find any definition of craving itself in the scriptures. </p>

<p>I am trying to understand what is craving by reading or finding the examples of craving.If you give examples of craving then you will find that craving can not be defined without mentioning self or I. For example I want ice cream , I am good , I am bad, I am good because of this, I am bad because of this, I love music, I want to watch movies, I want to travel etc...</p>

<p>Therefore it seems to me that non-understanding of anatta is at the root of craving. In other words if I declare the aggregates as worthless then then there will be revulsion and dispassion which is nothing but the end of craving. Further I can say that practice of anatta directly leads to cessation of craving.</p>

<p>I have two questions in this regard:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Can we define craving without mentioning self?</p></li>
<li><p>Is it true that practice of anatta directly leads to cessation of craving?</p></li>
</ol>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2018-04-20T20:21:10.013Z
Your questions are often mixed up based on what you are studying. The causes difficulty in answering your questions. In Pali, there are three becomings: sensual-becoming, form-becoming and formless-becoming. As for the three cravings, in Pali, they are generally craving for sensual, craving to be & craving not to be. You should provide a link to what you are referencing to make answering your question easier. Its seems like you are posting Mahayana sutras yet want a Theravada answer.
Dhamma Dhatu
CC BY-SA 3.0
2018-04-20T22:22:07.607Z
@Dhammadhatu ok. I will surely posts more links in question. I am not looking at Buddhism as Thervada or Mahayana as of now.
Dheeraj Verma
<anatman><pratityasamutpada><craving>
Can we define craving without mentioning self?
# Can we define craving without mentioning self?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2018-04-20)

Namo Buddhaya.

According to the Mahayana [Pratityasamutpadavibhanganirdesa Sutra](https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/English-Texts/Short-Pieces-in-Sanskrit/Conditional-Origination.htm), there are three cravings: craving for the sense-realm, craving for the form-realm, and craving for the formless-realm. But I couldn't find any definition of craving itself in the scriptures.

I am trying to understand what is craving by reading or finding the examples of craving.If you give examples of craving then you will find that craving can not be defined without mentioning self or I. For example I want ice cream , I am good , I am bad, I am good because of this, I am bad because of this, I love music, I want to watch movies, I want to travel etc...

Therefore it seems to me that non-understanding of anatta is at the root of craving. In other words if I declare the aggregates as worthless then then there will be revulsion and dispassion which is nothing but the end of craving. Further I can say that practice of anatta directly leads to cessation of craving.

I have two questions in this regard:

1. Can we define craving without mentioning self?
2. Is it true that practice of anatta directly leads to cessation of craving?

**Tags:** anatman, pratityasamutpada, craving

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: Your questions are often mixed up based on what you are studying. The causes difficulty in answering your questions. In Pali, there are three becomings: sensual-becoming, form-becoming and formless-becoming. As for the three cravings, in Pali, they are generally craving for sensual, craving to be & craving not to be. You should provide a link to what you are referencing to make answering your question easier. Its seems like you are posting Mahayana sutras yet want a Theravada answer.  
> **username_0**: @Dhammadhatu ok. I will surely posts more links in question. I am not looking at Buddhism as Thervada or Mahayana as of now.  

---

## 2 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2018-04-20. Score: 1 | Accepted answer

When the thought arises: "*I want ice cream*", the "*want*" is fueled by craving (*tanha*) but the arising of the idea of "I" is attachment (*upadana*) and becoming (*bhava*) rather than craving (*tanha*). The Mahayana sutra you are studying says:

> *There are four attachments: attachment to sense pleasures, attachment to views, attachment to virtue and practice, attachment to
> **self**-theories.*

The Pali suttas distinguish between craving and becoming, as follows:

> *The craving that makes for further **becoming** — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual
> pleasure, craving to be, craving not to be: This, friend
> Visakha, is the origination of **self-identification** described by the
> Blessed One.*
>
> *MN 44*

For self-identification or suffering to arise, craving alone is not enough. As described in MN 44, above, for self-identification or suffering to arise, the craving must lead to new becoming (*bhava*). The idea of 'I' or 'I exist' is becoming.

Here, suttas such as [SN 12.12](https://wwiw.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.012.nypo.html) and [MN 148](https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.148.than.html) clearly explain the idea of "I" arises after the arising of craving and that there can be craving without the idea of "I". Therefore, craving can be defined without mentioning self, as follows:

> *Venerable sir, who craves?*
>
> *“Not a valid question,” the Blessed One replied. “I do not say, ‘One craves.’ Since I do not speak thus, if one should ask me,
> ‘Venerable sir, with what as condition does craving come to be?’ this
> would be a valid question. To this the valid answer is: ‘**With feeling
> as condition, craving comes to be**; with craving as condition,
> clinging; with clinging as condition, becoming…. Such is the origin
> of this whole mass of suffering.’*
>
> *SN 12.12*

It follows the non-understanding of anatta is not at the root of craving; even though the realisation of anatta, together with the realisation of impermanence (*anicca*) & unsatisfactoriness (*dukkha*), will end craving.

If the mind realises the aggregates as 'worthless' (as described in [SN 22.95](https://suttacentral.net/sn22.95/en/bodhi)) there will certainly be revulsion and dispassion which is nothing but the end of craving. However the realisation of the aggregates as "worthless" is not 'anatta'. It is 'unsatisfactoriness' ('dukkha'). In other words, ideas of "I" could still possibly arise even though the aggregates are declared as worthless ([*asāra*](https://suttacentral.net/define/as%C4%81ra)).


---

### Answer by username_2 on 2018-04-20. Score: 2

An example is there in the paticca-samuppada itself.

> Vedana Paccaya Tanha

Feeling gives rise to craving.
So in reality there's no "I like icecream".

It should be

* liking arises due to taste
* liking arises due to sight
* liking arises due to sound etc.

There's no practicing Anatta. You practice mindfulness and the Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta natures are revealed. Practicing the noble eightfold path leads to the cutting off of craving and cessation of suffering. Mindfulness is a part of the noble eightfold path.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: You have explained what gives rise to craving but you have not defined what is craving? Give me examples of craving.  
> **username_2**: craving is the liking itself. Liking for sights, sounds, smells, tastes etc. are examples  
> **username_0**: Ok. You are saying liking arises.No self is involved.It is a fact that liking can not be separated from what is liked.I like a girl. You say I do not exist. Based on that it is obvious that the girl also doesn't exist. Now you are saying that only liking arises and no self arises. That is impossible because you are separating girl from the liking of the girl. That can not happen. You are making arising causeless.  
> **username_2**: Girl is not real. What you call a 'girl' is just sights, sounds, tactile sensations etc. Liking is different from what is liked. Ex: sound(physical) is different from the liking(mental) that arises due to sound.  
> **username_1**: I referred to SN 12.12 in my answer, which explains what username_2 sought to explain. Craving arises before the idea of "I". Also, the idea of "a girl" is "birth" ("jati"), i.e., the production (abhinibbatti) of ideas  of "beings"  (sattānaṃ) from the superficial appearance of the aggregates (khandhānaṃ pātubhāvo). Dependent origination is something very subtle. There are twelve conditions. The idea of: "I like & want a girl" spans the five conditions of feeling, craving, attachment, becoming & birth. It is not merely the one condition of craving.  

---

