<p>Buddhism focuses on spiritual development, so the Buddhist analysis of <em>rūpa</em> focuses on sense objects, the sense organs and the body. Non-living things are made up of temperature-born pure-octad groups or temperature-born sound groups. The relevance of non-living things in the Buddhist analysis of <em>rūpa</em> is that non-living things are sense objects.</p>

<p>I would say that sunlight itself does not impact the sense directly, only indirectly. When sunlight bounces off a speck of dust or a wall, then we “perceive” the sunlight through the eye sense. When sunlight makes our skin warm or a rock warm, we “perceive” sunlight through the tactile sense.</p>

<p>The speck of dust, the wall, the skin and the rock… all of these are “non-living things” and are temperature-born pure-octad groups (the eight <em>rūpa</em> that you listed above). They are all to be understood as sense objects. </p>

<p>Using fire-element (<em>tejo</em>) as one example, some sense objects have greater intensity of the fire-element and will be “warmer” to the tactile sense than other sense objects with less intensity of the fire-element, but all sense objects include the fire-element <em>rūpa</em>. The other seven <em>rūpa</em> in the temperature-born pure-octad group can be seen in a similar way... always present, but with different intensities.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-10-06T13:34:34.587Z
2015-10-06T13:34:34.587Z
RobM
<p>According to <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhidharma-kosa" rel="nofollow">Vasubandhu's Abhidharma-kosa</a>:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>Visible matter (<em>rupa</em>) is twofold.  </p>
  
  <ol>
  <li>Visible matter is color and shape. Color is fourfold: blue, red,
  yellow, white; other colors proceed from out of these four colors. Shape is eightfold: long, short, square, round, high, low, even, uneven.  </li>
  </ol>
  
  <p>Or twentyfold.</p>
  
  <ol start="2">
  <li><p>Or there are some twenty types: the four primary colors, the
  eight shapes, and eight more colors: cloud, smoke, dust, mist, shade,
  <strong>heat, light,</strong> darkness. Some make a color of the firmament [which
  appears like a wall of lapiz-lazuli]; this would give us the number
  twenty-one.  </p>
  
  <p>"Even" signifies "of even shape;" "uneven" is the opposite; mist is
  the vapor which rises from the ground and from water; <strong>"heat" is
  the light of the sun; "light" is the light of the moon, the stars, fire,
  grasses and gems;</strong> "shade"—arisen from an obstacle to light—is where
  forms still remain visible; "darkness" is the opposite. The other terms do not call for any explanation.  </p></li>
  <li><p><strong>Visible matter (<em>rupa</em>) can be color without being shape:</strong>
  blue, red, yellow, white, shade, <strong>heat, light</strong>, darkness.  </p>
  
  <p>There can be shapes without there being color: that part of the
  long, of the short, etc., which constitutes bodily action.  </p>
  
  <p>There can be color and shape at one and the same time: all the
  other categories of visible matter.</p>
  
  <p>Some other Masters maintain that only <strong>heat and light are
  exclusively color</strong>; for blue, red, etc., present themselves to the sight
  under the aspect of long, short, etc.</p></li>
  </ol>
</blockquote>

<p>From this you can see that according to Abhidharma of Vaibhasika school which is what Mahayana follows, sunlight <em>can</em> be pure color without shape. As Jayarava used to be fond of repeating (and as Thanissaro Bhikkhu is equally fond of hammering in), the perspective of Buddhism is that of phenomenology and not of metaphysics. From phenomenological standpoint there is absolutely no problem with having a perception of color without a perception of shape (nor taste, smell, nutriment, solidity, adhesion, and motion).</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-10-08T15:08:59.200Z
Ah this is Sarvastivada
Sankha Kulathantille
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-10-08T02:51:56.300Z
2015-10-08T12:46:17.133Z
2015-10-08T12:46:17.133Z
Andriy Volkov
<p>The Octad for sunlight:<br/>
1. Pathavi/earth: solidity is present in photons existing in particle form (the other is wave form)<br/>
2. Aapo/water: adhesion is present since light emitts "packets" of photons<br/>
3. Tejo/fire: in the form of heat<br/>
4. Vaayo/wind: motion is present in photons' traveling speed<br/>
5. Vanna/color: present in the light spectrum<br/>
6. Gandha/smell: a little tricky but we'll get there fairly soon according to this <a href="http://www.howitworksdaily.com/does-the-sun-smell-of-anything/" rel="nofollow">link</a><br/>
7. Rasa/taste: similar to 6.<br/>
8. Oja/nutriment: without sunlight, we wouldn't have sat here chatting and earth would've been a dead planet</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-10-09T05:30:42.477Z
8. photosynthesis
Sankha Kulathantille
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-10-09T02:51:28.960Z
2015-10-09T02:51:28.960Z
santa100
<p>If you'll forgive an uneducated guess of mine...</p>

<p>Imagine you're in a forest, after a rain storm: and then the sun comes out and shines. When that happens, then the air you breathe, the forest warmed by the sunlight, would be heavy with moisture.</p>

<p>Perhaps that's how there are other elements (for example moisture) in sunlight: in the real world, the elements are mixed together.</p>

<p>In the mental world (of ideas) you separate/isolate components/elements, you say, "this is sunlight, whereas that is moisture". But that ideal view (I'm using the word "ideal" as an antonym for "real") would be like asking, "where is the <em>aapo</em> in the <em>tejo</em>?"</p>

<p>Similarly in the real world, even if you're in a desert, there's some moisture, although only an infinitesimal amount.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-10-07T09:26:11.697Z
'Apo' actually refers to adhesion. Not moisture per se.
Sankha Kulathantille
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-10-07T09:36:42.967Z
Thanks. Another possibility is, the reference you quoted says, `These are metaphorically referred to under their ancient names but signify distinct properties of matter` and `The adhesion element ... predominates in liquids because, unlike solids, liquids unite when brought together. This adhesion element is intangible` -- maybe sunlight doesn't count as "matter". Or maybe (as also said in my answer) it doesn't count as a "compound" matter, it's not a mixture of elements (according to 20th century physics I think that [a photon is an elementary particle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon)).
ChrisW
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-10-07T10:24:38.690Z
Anything that is not Nama is Rupa. But Rupa may not always coincide with the modern scientific definition of matter. The 8 elements cannot stay independently according to Abhidhamma.
Sankha Kulathantille
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-10-07T08:49:48.387Z
2015-10-07T08:49:48.387Z
ChrisW
<p>Scientist in modern day believes "Energy and particles". (weakons = the weak nuclear force, gluon= the strong nuclear force, photon = the electromagnetic force, graviton = the force of gravity.)  </p>

<p>In early days they believes   "<a href="http://www.wisdomlib.org/defin%20ition/dhatu/index.html" rel="nofollow">4 Maha Buta</a>"- Pure elements (are abstractions) and "<a href="http://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/rupa-kalapa/index.html" rel="nofollow">The Rupa Kalapa</a>" is the smallest reality consists "Suddashtaka"(Pure Octed) as attributes. </p>

<p>According to <a href="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mendis/wheel322.html#top" rel="nofollow">Abhidhamma</a></p>

<blockquote>
  <p>The material elements never occur in isolation but in groups or
  clusters called kalaapas. A kalaapa can contain from <strong>eight to thirteen</strong>
  material elements. There is no cluster of matter without at least
  eight elements, the four primary elements and four secondary elements
  — namely color, taste, smell, and nutriment. <em>A unit containing only
  these is called a <strong>Pure Octad</strong>.</em></p>
  
  <p>Material phenomena arise through four causes: kamma, consciousness(chita),
  heat(Utu), and nutriment(Ahara).</p>
</blockquote>

<p>There has long been — and still is — a common tendency to create a "Buddhist" metaphysics in which the experience of emptiness, the Unconditioned, the Dharma-body, Buddha-nature, rigpa, etc.</p>

<p>The Buddha taught that clinging to views is one of the four forms of clinging that tie the mind to the processes of suffering. He thus recommended that his followers relinquish their clinging, not only to views in their full-blown form as specific positions, but also in their rudimentary form as the <strong>categories &amp; relationships</strong> that the mind reads into experience. This is a point he makes in the following discourse <a href="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.001.than.html" rel="nofollow">Mulapariyaya Sutta: The Root Sequence</a>,</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>The Blessed One said: "There is the case, monks, where an uninstructed
  run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not
  well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men
  of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma —
  perceives <strong>earth as earth</strong>. Perceiving earth as earth, he conceives
  [things] about earth, he conceives [things] in earth, he conceives
  [things] coming out of earth, he conceives earth as 'mine,' he
  delights in earth. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I
  tell you.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>.</p>

<blockquote>
  <p><strong>From a Vipassana point of view, is this problem occurring because the
  mind is getting stuck at the concept of Sunlight?</strong></p>
</blockquote>

<p><a href="http://www.palikanon.com/english/med_exercises/practical_meditation.htm" rel="nofollow">Practical Vipassanā Meditation Exercises</a> -Mahāsī Sayādaw - </p>

<blockquote>
  <p>The practice of Vipassanā or Insight Meditation is the effort made by
  the meditator to understand correctly the nature of the
  psycho-physical phenomena taking place in his own body. Physical
  phenomena are the things or objects which one clearly perceives around
  one. The whole of one’s body that one clearly perceives constitutes a
  group of material qualities (rūpa). Psychical or mental phenomena are
  acts of consciousness or awareness (nāma). These (nāma-rūpa) are
  clearly perceived to be happening whenever they are seen, heard,
  smelt, tasted, touched, or thought of. We must make ourselves aware of
  them by observing them and noting thus: ‘Seeing, seeing’, ‘hearing,
  hearing,’ ‘smelling smelling,’ ‘tasting, tasting,’ ‘touching,
  touching,’ or thinking, thinking.’</p>
</blockquote>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-10-06T14:43:31.990Z
2015-10-12T13:20:53.013Z
2015-10-12T13:20:53.013Z
Shrawaka
<p>According to Abhidhamma, the smallest unit of Rupa is called the <a href="http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mendis/wheel322.html#ruupa" rel="nofollow">Suddhashtaka(Pure Octad)</a> which has the following 8 elements:</p>

<p>patavi, apo, tejo, vayo, vanna, gandha, rasa, and oja</p>

<p>Regarding Sunlight, the tejo(heat) and the vanna(color) elements seem obvious, but how does one understand others? </p>

<p>From a Vipassana point of view, is this problem occurring because the mind is getting stuck at the concept of Sunlight?</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-10-07T03:53:13.023Z
I just want know, Abhidhamma is saying all of these Suddhashtaka has all 8 things you mentioned ? and Everything(light, sound, everything) made from Suddhashtaka?
John Fonseka
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-10-07T04:03:25.863Z
@JohnFonseka Yes
Sankha Kulathantille
CC BY-SA 3.0
2015-10-12T03:42:54.147Z
Logically, It can't use 'Sunlight' to understand elements. Why? 'Sunlight' isn't  a pure element.
Shrawaka
<vipassana><abhidhamma>
How does one understand the elements of the Pure Octad in Sunlight?
# How does one understand the elements of the Pure Octad in Sunlight?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2015-10-06)

According to Abhidhamma, the smallest unit of Rupa is called the [Suddhashtaka(Pure Octad)](http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mendis/wheel322.html#ruupa) which has the following 8 elements:

patavi, apo, tejo, vayo, vanna, gandha, rasa, and oja

Regarding Sunlight, the tejo(heat) and the vanna(color) elements seem obvious, but how does one understand others?

From a Vipassana point of view, is this problem occurring because the mind is getting stuck at the concept of Sunlight?

**Tags:** vipassana, abhidhamma

> **Comments:**
> **username_1**: I just want know, Abhidhamma is saying all of these Suddhashtaka has all 8 things you mentioned ? and Everything(light, sound, everything) made from Suddhashtaka?  
> **username_0**: @JohnFonseka Yes  
> **username_2**: Logically, It can't use 'Sunlight' to understand elements. Why? 'Sunlight' isn't  a pure element.  

---

## 5 answers

### Answer by username_3 on 2015-10-06. Score: 1

Buddhism focuses on spiritual development, so the Buddhist analysis of *rūpa* focuses on sense objects, the sense organs and the body. Non-living things are made up of temperature-born pure-octad groups or temperature-born sound groups. The relevance of non-living things in the Buddhist analysis of *rūpa* is that non-living things are sense objects.

I would say that sunlight itself does not impact the sense directly, only indirectly. When sunlight bounces off a speck of dust or a wall, then we “perceive” the sunlight through the eye sense. When sunlight makes our skin warm or a rock warm, we “perceive” sunlight through the tactile sense.

The speck of dust, the wall, the skin and the rock… all of these are “non-living things” and are temperature-born pure-octad groups (the eight *rūpa* that you listed above). They are all to be understood as sense objects.

Using fire-element (*tejo*) as one example, some sense objects have greater intensity of the fire-element and will be “warmer” to the tactile sense than other sense objects with less intensity of the fire-element, but all sense objects include the fire-element *rūpa*. The other seven *rūpa* in the temperature-born pure-octad group can be seen in a similar way... always present, but with different intensities.


---

### Answer by username_4 on 2015-10-08. Score: 1

According to [Vasubandhu's Abhidharma-kosa](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abhidharma-kosa):

> Visible matter (*rupa*) is twofold.
>
> 1. Visible matter is color and shape. Color is fourfold: blue, red,
>    yellow, white; other colors proceed from out of these four colors. Shape is eightfold: long, short, square, round, high, low, even, uneven.
>
> Or twentyfold.
>
> 2. Or there are some twenty types: the four primary colors, the
>    eight shapes, and eight more colors: cloud, smoke, dust, mist, shade,
>    **heat, light,** darkness. Some make a color of the firmament [which
>    appears like a wall of lapiz-lazuli]; this would give us the number
>    twenty-one.
>
>    "Even" signifies "of even shape;" "uneven" is the opposite; mist is
>    the vapor which rises from the ground and from water; **"heat" is
>    the light of the sun; "light" is the light of the moon, the stars, fire,
>    grasses and gems;** "shade"—arisen from an obstacle to light—is where
>    forms still remain visible; "darkness" is the opposite. The other terms do not call for any explanation.
> 3. **Visible matter (*rupa*) can be color without being shape:**
>    blue, red, yellow, white, shade, **heat, light**, darkness.
>
>    There can be shapes without there being color: that part of the
>    long, of the short, etc., which constitutes bodily action.
>
>    There can be color and shape at one and the same time: all the
>    other categories of visible matter.
>
>    Some other Masters maintain that only **heat and light are
>    exclusively color**; for blue, red, etc., present themselves to the sight
>    under the aspect of long, short, etc.

From this you can see that according to Abhidharma of Vaibhasika school which is what Mahayana follows, sunlight *can* be pure color without shape. As Jayarava used to be fond of repeating (and as Thanissaro Bhikkhu is equally fond of hammering in), the perspective of Buddhism is that of phenomenology and not of metaphysics. From phenomenological standpoint there is absolutely no problem with having a perception of color without a perception of shape (nor taste, smell, nutriment, solidity, adhesion, and motion).

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: Ah this is Sarvastivada  

---

### Answer by username_5 on 2015-10-09. Score: 0

The Octad for sunlight:  
1. Pathavi/earth: solidity is present in photons existing in particle form (the other is wave form)  
2. Aapo/water: adhesion is present since light emitts "packets" of photons  
3. Tejo/fire: in the form of heat  
4. Vaayo/wind: motion is present in photons' traveling speed  
5. Vanna/color: present in the light spectrum  
6. Gandha/smell: a little tricky but we'll get there fairly soon according to this [link](http://www.howitworksdaily.com/does-the-sun-smell-of-anything/)  
7. Rasa/taste: similar to 6.  
8. Oja/nutriment: without sunlight, we wouldn't have sat here chatting and earth would've been a dead planet

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: 8. photosynthesis  

---

### Answer by username_6 on 2015-10-07. Score: 0

If you'll forgive an uneducated guess of mine...

Imagine you're in a forest, after a rain storm: and then the sun comes out and shines. When that happens, then the air you breathe, the forest warmed by the sunlight, would be heavy with moisture.

Perhaps that's how there are other elements (for example moisture) in sunlight: in the real world, the elements are mixed together.

In the mental world (of ideas) you separate/isolate components/elements, you say, "this is sunlight, whereas that is moisture". But that ideal view (I'm using the word "ideal" as an antonym for "real") would be like asking, "where is the *aapo* in the *tejo*?"

Similarly in the real world, even if you're in a desert, there's some moisture, although only an infinitesimal amount.

> **Comments:**
> **username_0**: 'Apo' actually refers to adhesion. Not moisture per se.  
> **username_6**: Thanks. Another possibility is, the reference you quoted says, `These are metaphorically referred to under their ancient names but signify distinct properties of matter` and `The adhesion element ... predominates in liquids because, unlike solids, liquids unite when brought together. This adhesion element is intangible` -- maybe sunlight doesn't count as "matter". Or maybe (as also said in my answer) it doesn't count as a "compound" matter, it's not a mixture of elements (according to 20th century physics I think that [a photon is an elementary particle](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photon)).  
> **username_0**: Anything that is not Nama is Rupa. But Rupa may not always coincide with the modern scientific definition of matter. The 8 elements cannot stay independently according to Abhidhamma.  

---

### Answer by username_2 on 2015-10-06. Score: 0

Scientist in modern day believes "Energy and particles". (weakons = the weak nuclear force, gluon= the strong nuclear force, photon = the electromagnetic force, graviton = the force of gravity.)

In early days they believes "[4 Maha Buta](http://www.wisdomlib.org/defin%20ition/dhatu/index.html)"- Pure elements (are abstractions) and "[The Rupa Kalapa](http://www.wisdomlib.org/definition/rupa-kalapa/index.html)" is the smallest reality consists "Suddashtaka"(Pure Octed) as attributes.

According to [Abhidhamma](http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/mendis/wheel322.html#top)

> The material elements never occur in isolation but in groups or
> clusters called kalaapas. A kalaapa can contain from **eight to thirteen**
> material elements. There is no cluster of matter without at least
> eight elements, the four primary elements and four secondary elements
> — namely color, taste, smell, and nutriment. *A unit containing only
> these is called a **Pure Octad**.*
>
> Material phenomena arise through four causes: kamma, consciousness(chita),
> heat(Utu), and nutriment(Ahara).

There has long been — and still is — a common tendency to create a "Buddhist" metaphysics in which the experience of emptiness, the Unconditioned, the Dharma-body, Buddha-nature, rigpa, etc.

The Buddha taught that clinging to views is one of the four forms of clinging that tie the mind to the processes of suffering. He thus recommended that his followers relinquish their clinging, not only to views in their full-blown form as specific positions, but also in their rudimentary form as the **categories & relationships** that the mind reads into experience. This is a point he makes in the following discourse [Mulapariyaya Sutta: The Root Sequence](http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.001.than.html),

> The Blessed One said: "There is the case, monks, where an uninstructed
> run-of-the-mill person — who has no regard for noble ones, is not
> well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for men
> of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma —
> perceives **earth as earth**. Perceiving earth as earth, he conceives
> [things] about earth, he conceives [things] in earth, he conceives
> [things] coming out of earth, he conceives earth as 'mine,' he
> delights in earth. Why is that? Because he has not comprehended it, I
> tell you.

.

> **From a Vipassana point of view, is this problem occurring because the
> mind is getting stuck at the concept of Sunlight?**

[Practical Vipassanā Meditation Exercises](http://www.palikanon.com/english/med_exercises/practical_meditation.htm) -Mahāsī Sayādaw -

> The practice of Vipassanā or Insight Meditation is the effort made by
> the meditator to understand correctly the nature of the
> psycho-physical phenomena taking place in his own body. Physical
> phenomena are the things or objects which one clearly perceives around
> one. The whole of one’s body that one clearly perceives constitutes a
> group of material qualities (rūpa). Psychical or mental phenomena are
> acts of consciousness or awareness (nāma). These (nāma-rūpa) are
> clearly perceived to be happening whenever they are seen, heard,
> smelt, tasted, touched, or thought of. We must make ourselves aware of
> them by observing them and noting thus: ‘Seeing, seeing’, ‘hearing,
> hearing,’ ‘smelling smelling,’ ‘tasting, tasting,’ ‘touching,
> touching,’ or thinking, thinking.’


---

