<p>No, it will not be destroyed. The most direct way to reach this conclusion is to look at the rule that specifies that creatures with zero or negative toughness will die:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard. Regeneration can’t replace this event.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>This rule applies only to <em>creatures</em>, not to noncreature artifacts (like unanimated vehicles). There is no corresponding rule for vehicles, artifacts in general, or any type of noncreature permanent. (It wouldn't make sense because <a href="https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/a/33795/1499">noncreature permanents don't have toughness</a>.)</p>

<p>Another argument is a little more technical. Even when a creature does have zero or negative toughness, it's not <em>destroyed</em>. "Destroy" has a specific meaning in Magic; it's one particular way that a permanent might be caused to die, but but not the only way. Reducing a creature's toughness to zero or less is a completely different way. One of the differences is that regeneration can save a creature which would be destroyed, but it does not save a creature with zero or negative toughness.</p>

<p>Other answers have identified other justifications for the same conclusion, which I will not repeat here.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-01-10T19:14:31.267Z
This misses a reason, fyi: a noncreature can't have toughness at all, so a noncreature has no toughness to reduce to 0 or below.
doppelgreener
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-01-10T19:23:02.720Z
@doppelgreener I intentionally omitted that because rule 704.5f makes it irrelevant, and it would be a distraction from my point. I believe this answer is a sufficient explanation without that fact. (Though an answer that does mention that could be perfectly valid.) I'll clarify this answer to point out that there are other explanations.
David Z
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-01-10T18:52:03.990Z
2017-01-10T19:27:08.067Z
2017-01-10T19:27:08.067Z
David Z
<p><strong>No, and you can't even target the vehicle with effects that target creatures, such as <a class="mtg-autocard" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bTragic%20Slip%5d">Tragic Slip</a>, unless that vehicle has been turned into a creature.</strong> Until a vehicle is crewed (or granted creatureship through some other means like <a class="mtg-autocard" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bStart%20Your%20Engines%5d">Start Your Engines</a>), it has no power or toughness.</p>

<p>From the Gatherer rulings for an <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=417808" rel="nofollow noreferrer">arbitrary vehicle</a>:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>Each Vehicle is printed with a power and toughness, but it’s not a creature. If it becomes a creature (most likely through its crew ability, but the Kaladesh set includes other such effects), it will have that power and toughness.</p>
</blockquote>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-01-10T16:15:27.867Z
Correct answer but inaccurate statement: targeting has nothing to do with the vehicle having toughness, and everything to do with it being a creature.
monoRed
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-01-10T16:20:40.987Z
@monoRed I agree. Unless it is a creature, you can't target it with effects that target creatures, such as reducing toughness. Toughness is a characteristic only attributable creatures, so anything that reduces toughness could never target a permanent that isn't a creature.
SocioMatt
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-01-10T16:24:43.377Z
There are effects that can target non-creature permanents that affect P/T, such as Aether Meltdown, and it is possible to have +1/+1 or -1/-1 counters on non-creature permanents. They're not common, but they exist.
monoRed
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-01-10T16:28:06.267Z
@monoRed Aether Meltdown enchants a vehicle, but that vehicle's power can't be reduced until it becomes a creature. While it's possible to have +1/+1 counters on a non-creature permanent, those counters have no effect unless the permanent becomes a creature since the permanent has no power or toughness.
SocioMatt
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-01-10T16:29:56.163Z
Right, you can't affect power and toughness because they're not there, but that doesn't stop them from targeting the vehicle. If I have a spell that says "target permanent gets -2/-2 until end of turn", I can target a land or a planeswalker or a vehicle and it won't do anything (unless they turn into a creature later that turn), but it's a legal target.
monoRed
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-01-10T16:34:28.767Z
@monoRed As of now there are no cards that give a permanent -X/-X. I'll change the wording in my first sentence to clarify about creature effects.
SocioMatt
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-01-10T18:18:56.630Z
There is at least one card that gives a noncreature permanent +1/+1. See [Veteran Motorist](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=417761). It stands to reason that if a card exists that can give a noncreature permanent +1/+1, then a card could be printed in the future that gives -X/-X.
Rainbolt
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-01-10T22:32:38.017Z
For an existing 'real-world' example: The vehicle could pick up a -1/-1 counter as a creature, return to being a vehicle at EOT when the crew ability wears off, and then have that -1/-1 counter replicated (many times over) with Clockspinning.
Steven Stadnicki
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-01-10T15:33:40.150Z
2017-01-10T16:34:46.283Z
2017-01-10T16:34:46.283Z
SocioMatt
<p>The <a href="http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373524" rel="noreferrer">Gods from Theros</a> aren't creatures sometimes.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>208.3. A noncreature permanent has no power or toughness, even if it’s a card with a power and toughness printed on it (such as a Vehicle).</p>
<p>208.3a If an effect would be created that affects the power and/or toughness of a noncreature permanent, that effect is created even though it doesn’t do anything unless that permanent becomes a creature.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Thus, they have no power and toughness that can be reduced to below 0.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-01-10T13:53:36.547Z
@diego Edited. I used magiccards.info for the rules (I couldn't access wizards official page), and it seems they were outdated.
Manuel Hoffmann
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-01-10T17:03:55.260Z
Good example of, though it'd be nice if you directly answered the question about noncreature artifacts too.
Cascabel
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-01-10T18:13:39.347Z
The rule directly below the quoted rule seems to answer the question much more directly, so I just edited it in.
Rainbolt
CC BY-SA 3.0
2017-01-10T13:43:36.870Z
2017-01-10T18:13:35.887Z
2020-06-17T09:01:24.697Z
Manuel Hoffmann
<p>I was reading through the answers of <a href="https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/33673/what-is-the-difference-between-an-artifact-and-a-creature">this question</a> when I suddenly wondered about Vehicles in their artifact state.</p>

<p>They have a listed Power and Toughness. If I were to reduce that toughness to 0 and the Vehicle is not crewed (i.e. does not have the Creature type, only Artifact), is it destroyed?</p>

<p>Are there other examples of this, like enchantments that have a power and toughness even though they are (at the moment) not creatures? Can those permanents be destroyed by reducing toughness?</p>

<magic-the-gathering>
Can a noncreature artifact be destroyed by reducing toughness?
steenbergh
# Can a noncreature artifact be destroyed by reducing toughness?

(Asked by: username_0 on 2017-01-10)

I was reading through the answers of [this question](https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/questions/33673/what-is-the-difference-between-an-artifact-and-a-creature) when I suddenly wondered about Vehicles in their artifact state.

They have a listed Power and Toughness. If I were to reduce that toughness to 0 and the Vehicle is not crewed (i.e. does not have the Creature type, only Artifact), is it destroyed?

Are there other examples of this, like enchantments that have a power and toughness even though they are (at the moment) not creatures? Can those permanents be destroyed by reducing toughness?

**Tags:** magic-the-gathering


---

## 3 answers

### Answer by username_7 on 2017-01-10. Score: 13 | Accepted answer

The [Gods from Theros](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=373524) aren't creatures sometimes.

> 208.3. A noncreature permanent has no power or toughness, even if it’s a card with a power and toughness printed on it (such as a Vehicle).
>
> 208.3a If an effect would be created that affects the power and/or toughness of a noncreature permanent, that effect is created even though it doesn’t do anything unless that permanent becomes a creature.

Thus, they have no power and toughness that can be reduced to below 0.

> **Comments:**
> **username_7**: @diego Edited. I used magiccards.info for the rules (I couldn't access wizards official page), and it seems they were outdated.  
> **username_8**: Good example of, though it'd be nice if you directly answered the question about noncreature artifacts too.  
> **username_5**: The rule directly below the quoted rule seems to answer the question much more directly, so I just edited it in.  

---

### Answer by username_1 on 2017-01-10. Score: 8

No, it will not be destroyed. The most direct way to reach this conclusion is to look at the rule that specifies that creatures with zero or negative toughness will die:

> 704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it’s put into its owner’s graveyard. Regeneration can’t replace this event.

This rule applies only to *creatures*, not to noncreature artifacts (like unanimated vehicles). There is no corresponding rule for vehicles, artifacts in general, or any type of noncreature permanent. (It wouldn't make sense because [noncreature permanents don't have toughness](https://boardgames.stackexchange.com/a/33795/1499).)

Another argument is a little more technical. Even when a creature does have zero or negative toughness, it's not *destroyed*. "Destroy" has a specific meaning in Magic; it's one particular way that a permanent might be caused to die, but but not the only way. Reducing a creature's toughness to zero or less is a completely different way. One of the differences is that regeneration can save a creature which would be destroyed, but it does not save a creature with zero or negative toughness.

Other answers have identified other justifications for the same conclusion, which I will not repeat here.

> **Comments:**
> **username_2**: This misses a reason, fyi: a noncreature can't have toughness at all, so a noncreature has no toughness to reduce to 0 or below.  
> **username_1**: @username_2 I intentionally omitted that because rule 704.5f makes it irrelevant, and it would be a distraction from my point. I believe this answer is a sufficient explanation without that fact. (Though an answer that does mention that could be perfectly valid.) I'll clarify this answer to point out that there are other explanations.  

---

### Answer by username_3 on 2017-01-10. Score: 6

**No, and you can't even target the vehicle with effects that target creatures, such as [Tragic Slip](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bTragic%20Slip%5d), unless that vehicle has been turned into a creature.** Until a vehicle is crewed (or granted creatureship through some other means like [Start Your Engines](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?name=%2b%5bStart%20Your%20Engines%5d)), it has no power or toughness.

From the Gatherer rulings for an [arbitrary vehicle](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=417808):

> Each Vehicle is printed with a power and toughness, but it’s not a creature. If it becomes a creature (most likely through its crew ability, but the Kaladesh set includes other such effects), it will have that power and toughness.

> **Comments:**
> **username_4**: Correct answer but inaccurate statement: targeting has nothing to do with the vehicle having toughness, and everything to do with it being a creature.  
> **username_3**: @username_4 I agree. Unless it is a creature, you can't target it with effects that target creatures, such as reducing toughness. Toughness is a characteristic only attributable creatures, so anything that reduces toughness could never target a permanent that isn't a creature.  
> **username_4**: There are effects that can target non-creature permanents that affect P/T, such as Aether Meltdown, and it is possible to have +1/+1 or -1/-1 counters on non-creature permanents. They're not common, but they exist.  
> **username_3**: @username_4 Aether Meltdown enchants a vehicle, but that vehicle's power can't be reduced until it becomes a creature. While it's possible to have +1/+1 counters on a non-creature permanent, those counters have no effect unless the permanent becomes a creature since the permanent has no power or toughness.  
> **username_4**: Right, you can't affect power and toughness because they're not there, but that doesn't stop them from targeting the vehicle. If I have a spell that says "target permanent gets -2/-2 until end of turn", I can target a land or a planeswalker or a vehicle and it won't do anything (unless they turn into a creature later that turn), but it's a legal target.  
> **username_3**: @username_4 As of now there are no cards that give a permanent -X/-X. I'll change the wording in my first sentence to clarify about creature effects.  
> **username_5**: There is at least one card that gives a noncreature permanent +1/+1. See [Veteran Motorist](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=417761). It stands to reason that if a card exists that can give a noncreature permanent +1/+1, then a card could be printed in the future that gives -X/-X.  
> **username_6**: For an existing 'real-world' example: The vehicle could pick up a -1/-1 counter as a creature, return to being a vehicle at EOT when the crew ability wears off, and then have that -1/-1 counter replicated (many times over) with Clockspinning.  

---

