<p>It is difficult to tell if the pincer at 3 was the right choice. Generally, such a wide pincer is good if you plan on a moyo on the right side. I'm assuming that W1 was in the upper left and B2 a hoshi in the lower right, as in this:</p>

<pre><code>$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
</code></pre>

<p>On this board, B4 looks like a reasonable pincer. Typically, you'd expect something like this:</p>

<pre><code>$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . 4 2 8 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 5 X 3 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------
</code></pre>

<p>Now the black right side has nice potential to grow big.</p>

<p>In the game, white chose the counter pincer instead, which is a good move (especially in handicap games). Your choice of the kosumi B5 was good, as it simplifies the game and leaves white less chances to start a complicated fight than other options (most notable the tsuke on top of W2.</p>

<p>White deviation from joseki was a mistake. Let's study why. First, one correct variation:</p>

<pre><code>$$Wm1
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . O 3 O O 7 . |
$$ . X 2 1 X X 5 . |
$$ . . . X 4 a 6 . |
$$ . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
</code></pre>

<p>Here, white first plays W1 to force black to play an empty triangle at 4. Next, white hanes at 5, and after W7, black would need to play at a to fix the shape. But that would leave black with a pretty heavy shape (too many stones used). This heavy shape is a direct result of the kosumi B5 in the original diagram, which often leads to shape troubles. This is still acceptable in handicap games, though.</p>

<p>Let's compare this with the game:</p>

<pre><code>$$Wm1
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . O . O O 3 . |
$$ . X . a X X 1 . |
$$ . . . X . 4 2 . |
$$ . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
</code></pre>

<p>In this variation black does hane at 2, followed by W3 and connect at 4. Note that white a does not threaten a cut anymore, because black already fixed at 4. Thus, black is less heavy, and the variation is a little bit worse for white than joseki.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2013-02-08T13:40:36.043Z
2013-02-08T13:40:36.043Z
mafu
<p>When White hanes at 10, you need to play 11 at 13, then connect after he does. You cannot answer a contact move with a non-contact move in this situation (and most others).</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2013-02-10T15:25:05.510Z
2013-02-10T15:25:05.510Z
Tom Au
<p>You didn't lose the corner, you exchanged it for a position on the right side. That's how pincers work, so nothing wrong here. The high pincer combined with your move at 11 looks right here as it prevents a white moyo.</p>

<p>The sequence might not be optimal (see josekipedia/eidogo for the many variations), but the end result looks ok. Capturing at 13 is quite big for white, but its downside is that <strong>it gives black the initiative</strong>. You could have played 13 before 11, but then it would have given white the opportunity to play 14 somewhere else.</p>

CC BY-SA 3.0
2016-01-20T20:00:20.863Z
2016-01-21T00:30:28.047Z
2016-01-21T00:30:28.047Z
Christophe
<p>I am 4K and played against 2K in handicap game (2-stones).</p>

<p>The point of B3 was to prevent a double-wing shape for white (along the right and bottom)</p>

<p>So W4 pincer leads us into this joseki variant.  <a href="http://www.josekipedia.com/" rel="nofollow">Josekipedia</a> suggests alternatives.</p>

<pre><code>$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 4 . 8 6 . . |
$$ . 9 . . 1 7 . . |
$$ . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ 
</code></pre>

<p><a href="http://www.josekipedia.com/" rel="nofollow">Josekipedia</a> suggests playing this way:</p>

<pre><code>$$Wm10
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . 1 O . O O . . |
$$ 2 X . . X X . . |
$$ . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ 
</code></pre>

<p>Instead we played where I lost a large corner altogether with unstable shape outside.  </p>

<pre><code>$$Wm10
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . O 9 O O . . |
$$ . X 8 3 X X 1 . |
$$ . . . X 6 5 4 . |
$$ . . . . . O 7 . |
$$ . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ 
</code></pre>

<p>For unrelated reasons, I won the game (<a href="http://files.gokgs.com/games/2013/2/7/Puppies-MrCactu5.sgf" rel="nofollow">SGF</a>) against this 2K.</p>

<p>Was the pincer at 3 and kosumi at 5 the right choice? How could I have prevented the loss of the corner?</p>

<go><joseki>
4-4 pincer variant - not in joseki dictionary
john mangual
# 4-4 pincer variant - not in joseki dictionary

(Asked by: username_0 on 2013-02-08)

I am 4K and played against 2K in handicap game (2-stones).
The point of B3 was to prevent a double-wing shape for white (along the right and bottom)
So W4 pincer leads us into this joseki variant.  Josekipedia suggests alternatives.
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . 4 . 8 6 . . |
$$ . 9 . . 1 7 . . |
$$ . . . 5 . . . . |
$$ . . . . . 2 . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . 3 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ 

Josekipedia suggests playing this way:
$$Wm10
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . 1 O . O O . . |
$$ 2 X . . X X . . |
$$ . . . X . . . . |
$$ . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ 

Instead we played where I lost a large corner altogether with unstable shape outside.  
$$Wm10
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . O 9 O O . . |
$$ . X 8 3 X X 1 . |
$$ . . . X 6 5 4 . |
$$ . . . . . O 7 . |
$$ . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ 

For unrelated reasons, I won the game (SGF) against this 2K.
Was the pincer at 3 and kosumi at 5 the right choice? How could I have prevented the loss of the corner?

**Tags:** go, joseki


---

## 3 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2013-02-08. Score: 5 | Accepted answer

It is difficult to tell if the pincer at 3 was the right choice. Generally, such a wide pincer is good if you plan on a moyo on the right side. I'm assuming that W1 was in the upper left and B2 a hoshi in the lower right, as in this:
$$Wcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . 1 . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3 . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 4 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . 2 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

On this board, B4 looks like a reasonable pincer. Typically, you'd expect something like this:
$$Bcm1
$$ ---------------------------------------
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . 0 . 4 2 8 . |
$$ | . . . O . . . . . , . . . . 5 X 3 6 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9 7 . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . O . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . , . . . . . , . . . . . 1 . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . X . . . . . , . . . . . X . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ | . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . |
$$ ---------------------------------------

Now the black right side has nice potential to grow big.
In the game, white chose the counter pincer instead, which is a good move (especially in handicap games). Your choice of the kosumi B5 was good, as it simplifies the game and leaves white less chances to start a complicated fight than other options (most notable the tsuke on top of W2.
White deviation from joseki was a mistake. Let's study why. First, one correct variation:
$$Wm1
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . O 3 O O 7 . |
$$ . X 2 1 X X 5 . |
$$ . . . X 4 a 6 . |
$$ . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |

Here, white first plays W1 to force black to play an empty triangle at 4. Next, white hanes at 5, and after W7, black would need to play at a to fix the shape. But that would leave black with a pretty heavy shape (too many stones used). This heavy shape is a direct result of the kosumi B5 in the original diagram, which often leads to shape troubles. This is still acceptable in handicap games, though.
Let's compare this with the game:
$$Wm1
$$ ----------------
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . O . O O 3 . |
$$ . X . a X X 1 . |
$$ . . . X . 4 2 . |
$$ . . . . . O . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |
$$ . . . . X . . . |
$$ . . . . . . . . |

In this variation black does hane at 2, followed by W3 and connect at 4. Note that white a does not threaten a cut anymore, because black already fixed at 4. Thus, black is less heavy, and the variation is a little bit worse for white than joseki.


---

### Answer by username_2 on 2013-02-10. Score: 2

When White hanes at 10, you need to play 11 at 13, then connect after he does. You cannot answer a contact move with a non-contact move in this situation (and most others).


---

### Answer by username_3 on 2016-01-20. Score: 1

You didn't lose the corner, you exchanged it for a position on the right side. That's how pincers work, so nothing wrong here. The high pincer combined with your move at 11 looks right here as it prevents a white moyo.

The sequence might not be optimal (see josekipedia/eidogo for the many variations), but the end result looks ok. Capturing at 13 is quite big for white, but its downside is that **it gives black the initiative**. You could have played 13 before 11, but then it would have given white the opportunity to play 14 somewhere else.


---

