<p>You have it backwards. You would pay the Echo cost during your next upkeep <strong>because</strong> you didn't control it since your previous upkeep.</p>
<p>The Echo ability is defined in rule <a href="https://yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#R70230" rel="noreferrer">702.30a</a>:</p>
<blockquote>
<p>Echo is a triggered ability. &quot;Echo [cost]&quot; means &quot;At the beginning of your upkeep, if this permanent came under your control since the beginning of your last upkeep, sacrifice it unless you pay [cost].&quot;</p>
</blockquote>
<p>In this case, the Karmic Guide came under your control during your opponent's upkeep, which is more recent than your last upkeep.</p>

CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-08-01T01:53:28.777Z
In other words, you have to pay the Echo for the "new" Karmic guide, but not for the "old" one since it's no longer on the battlefield.
ConMan
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-08-01T01:55:15.533Z
Right, the "old" one doesn't exist, so its Echo ability doesn't exist. There's nothing to trigger and nothing to pay for that one.
murgatroid99
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-08-01T05:45:03.873Z
Note to OP, you’d have it correct IF echo were a delayed trigger such as “when this enters the battlefield, at the beginning of your next upkeep sacrifice it unless you pay [cost]”.
GendoIkari
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-08-01T06:40:20.777Z
@GendoIkari That doesn't look right to me. If a creature had such an ability, it would trigger when it reenters after being flickered, so you would still have to pay.
murgatroid99
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-08-01T12:58:00.650Z
@GendoIkari it would have to be "when you cast [this], at the beginning of your next upkeep sacrifice it unless you pay [cost]" for flickering (or reanimation etc) to avoid the echo cost
Caleth
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-08-01T14:53:59.817Z
Ah right... I almost said "when you cast this" even.
GendoIkari
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-08-04T20:56:41.770Z
@GendoIkari It would have to trigger off of something other than ETB. For instance, Unearth gets the exile from it being cast with the Unearth cost. Also, if the permanent gets the ability from some source other than itself, that would work. For instance, if a spell says "Put a creature card from your hand onto the battlefield. At the beginning of the next upkeep, sacrifice it unless you pay [cost]", then when you flicker it, it comes back without the spell's trigger.
Acccumulation
CC BY-SA 4.0
2024-08-01T00:38:21.680Z
2024-08-01T00:38:21.680Z
murgatroid99
<p>If I cast a <a class="mtg-autocard" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karmic%20Guide">Karmic Guide</a> and on my opponents upkeep I use <a class="mtg-autocard" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer" href="https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blur">Blur</a> to flicker it on my next upkeep, do I need to pay the echo cost? I'm under the assumption that I don't due to the rules of flickered creatures.</p>
<blockquote>
<p>400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence.</p>
</blockquote>
<p>So, in this case I didn't control this &quot;new&quot; Karmic Guide during my last upkeep so I wouldn't pay the echo right?</p>

<magic-the-gathering>
Echo and Flicker
Nakoto Amagi
# Echo and Flicker

(Asked by: username_0 on 2024-08-01)

If I cast a [Karmic Guide](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karmic%20Guide) and on my opponents upkeep I use [Blur](https://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Blur) to flicker it on my next upkeep, do I need to pay the echo cost? I'm under the assumption that I don't due to the rules of flickered creatures.

> 400.7. An object that moves from one zone to another becomes a new object with no memory of, or relation to, its previous existence.

So, in this case I didn't control this "new" Karmic Guide during my last upkeep so I wouldn't pay the echo right?

**Tags:** magic-the-gathering


---

## 1 answers

### Answer by username_1 on 2024-08-01. Score: 6

You have it backwards. You would pay the Echo cost during your next upkeep **because** you didn't control it since your previous upkeep.

The Echo ability is defined in rule [702.30a](https://yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#R70230):

> Echo is a triggered ability. "Echo [cost]" means "At the beginning of your upkeep, if this permanent came under your control since the beginning of your last upkeep, sacrifice it unless you pay [cost]."

In this case, the Karmic Guide came under your control during your opponent's upkeep, which is more recent than your last upkeep.

> **Comments:**
> **username_2**: In other words, you have to pay the Echo for the "new" Karmic guide, but not for the "old" one since it's no longer on the battlefield.  
> **username_1**: Right, the "old" one doesn't exist, so its Echo ability doesn't exist. There's nothing to trigger and nothing to pay for that one.  
> **username_3**: Note to OP, you’d have it correct IF echo were a delayed trigger such as “when this enters the battlefield, at the beginning of your next upkeep sacrifice it unless you pay [cost]”.  
> **username_1**: @username_3 That doesn't look right to me. If a creature had such an ability, it would trigger when it reenters after being flickered, so you would still have to pay.  
> **username_4**: @username_3 it would have to be "when you cast [this], at the beginning of your next upkeep sacrifice it unless you pay [cost]" for flickering (or reanimation etc) to avoid the echo cost  
> **username_3**: Ah right... I almost said "when you cast this" even.  
> **username_5**: @username_3 It would have to trigger off of something other than ETB. For instance, Unearth gets the exile from it being cast with the Unearth cost. Also, if the permanent gets the ability from some source other than itself, that would work. For instance, if a spell says "Put a creature card from your hand onto the battlefield. At the beginning of the next upkeep, sacrifice it unless you pay [cost]", then when you flicker it, it comes back without the spell's trigger.  

---

