Question: What things are considered when assessing the possibility of moons to sustain life?

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Why not classify the content to date where it belongs, but instead start with black tar nud to paint fashionably menacing images on walls in sight of bogeymen as visions?


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81.175.156.161 4 January 2007 at 13:00 (UTC) Woe to you little Ulrika.


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Classification has nothing to do with trampling.


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There are dozens of articles coming to wikipedia about city councillors in large municipalities, no matter how hard you try to fight for the removal of all politicians. —AP4k 3 January 2007 at 20:18 (UTC) This class was made Category:Pori City Councillors —Musamies 3 January 2007 at 19:38 (UTC) So it is, and there is exactly one article “Wikipedia:Coffee room (practices)”, this is how it is.


Question: What things are considered when assessing the possibility of moons to sustain life?

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I gotta put it in the trash like that!


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—Alexius Manfelt 3 January 2007 at 19:49 (UTC) The data is out of date.


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There are more than about ten MPs in the class.


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I would urge Alexius Manfelt to take a look and say that about 50 MPs are associated with Pori and perhaps 40 of them have been a city or municipal councillor in Pori or some other city or municipality.


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Academic laziness can be countered by checking the potential of a class.


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It is somewhat ridiculous that one should race to write ten or twenty articles in a category before someone once again waves a vesur and claims that there isn't like one there, which is why it's irrelevant.


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Not a single class could be set up as a parser in Wikipedia, if as soon as the first article is attached to it, someone idly would already have it pruning its nastiness.


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81.175.156.161 January 4, 2007 at 1:04pm (UTC) Sounds like a competent class.


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Sure, a category with one article can be removed for the time being, but I'm sure there will be many more poric councillors on wikipedia. —AP4k 3 January 2007 at 20:18 (UTC) I wrote my suggestions for classifying Finnish politicians on the discussion page.


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I think it would be good to continue the discussion there, and not simultaneously in four places. —AP4k 4 January 2007 at 15:51 (UTC) Consistency in deletions Would there be anything if administrator candidates or those who intended to be a vandal hunt in some instruction support would also be taught about consistency.


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Relevant stub aspirants, minitigs, easily drink into rubbish just because the moderator doesn't have the patience to look to which entity the article that is significant as rubbish belongs to.


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That editing counter maximizing, which is rewarded for in the polls, is obviously a good way to make fast-paced tabloid, but whether it fits into an encyclopedia.


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For example, a sufficiently famous world-musically completely irrelevant Finland (except Sibelius) Lapinlahti Birds.


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And then don't invoke “behaviour”, which is inconsistent and already forgotten by many, as well as setting precedents as rules unorganized.


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Y2007 at 22:13 (UTC) On 2 January 2007, you were right.


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Your pointless, premature rubbish model had appeared in the article by one member (Lot) even though this should not have been the case (damage happens).


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Sure, the article was in a bad jam (not even a valid mini-pig), but in terms of subject matter it was definitely beyond Wikipedia's threshold of significance.


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Now it's in a better position.


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—Ras 2 January 2007 at 22:51 (UTC) That's what I thought, although even the whole famous band is not very close to myself.


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This deleting to maximize the editing counter leads to the fact that no novice bothers to write their insecurities when they are immediately rebuffed.


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Whoever prunes others' writings and maximizes their edit counters becomes admin, resulting in nothing going through and no new individuals being let in as administrators with the highest approval rates.


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This same phenomenon is repeated in some other series of articles on which information is necessary, but it is very difficult to obtain from uncertain sources.


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When a band is concerned, you should check if there is something interesting about the persons, even if none of them have written more than a name on a notelist.


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Band members should not be eradicated from the whole; however, an article about them should be written in a song about the band members in an article about the band.


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This would bring in new authors.


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Modernisation should be supportive and instructive, rather than pruning and stretching.


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Y2007 on January 2, 2007 at 22:58 (UTC) I looked at the history of the article, and yes J was right: the article labeled as garbage wasn't even a mini-stub, it was purely crap.


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J therefore did a considerable service to Wikipedia: by labelling as rubbish, the article was cured to a valid stub in no time, when otherwise it would have been invalid for several months.


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In conclusion: J has acted as it should, and by extending the article, has avoided being rubbish by deletion, as it should.


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—Agony (403) 3 January 2007 at 06:30 (UTC) Does Agony suggest that other articles about Lapinlahti Linnut band members should be labelled as rubbish?


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Does Agony do this?


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Why hasn't J also flagged other articles of equal value as garbage in order to bring the issue into discussion?


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Y2007 January 3, 2007 at 13:00 (UTC) Why I see someone new very short article can be marked as garbage and possibly deleted, even after a few minutes, but repeat again not, for example in comparison.


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Does this happen often?


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In this example, a comment about minitynga, but not deleting the article, has been nicely displayed on this new user's discussion page.


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I sometimes wondered when the article was lost without a trace, later found out that there was a deletion log.


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In short pages you can easily find additional few words of personal articles.


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So would I be doing Wikipedia a “considerable favor” if I started labeling them as garbage?.


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—Wipu on 3 January 2007 at 07:50 (UTC) The vandal hunt and the desperate competition of new users for access to sustain is causing constant writer-repelling excesses.


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This has become a self-fuelling development.


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No evaluation of any kind among the content of the article types occurs; instead, one mini-stub gets labeled as crap because it isn't a stub, article or series of articles in length yet without looking at what other similar articles are.


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This collects merite as a maintenance work, although in fact, at the principle level, it detracts from information content and interest, as well as the number of users, in short, popularity.


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Another problem with the comparison is that, from time to time, anti-classification is still prevalent from the obscurity of history, due to the desire to emphasise the aesthetic look of the article, in which case the objective is not so much the provision of information as a visually attractive picture book.


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Y2007 3 January 2007 at 13:00 (UTC) These depend only on observations made by users of Wikipedia and the presence of administrators.


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Although the “sieve” (i.e. fresh changes) is viewed by several pairs of eyes simultaneously, you get through it every now and then also rubbish.


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That is, even if the topic is significant, but the content is in the category “Pike is a fish” (not even “Pike is a predatory fish living in inland waters and coastal areas”), the article's sadness can be labeled as rubbish on the basis of “Not even a miniature” in which most cases you can find actives that improve the article or if not found, does Wikipedia lose anything when deleting the information “N.N is a musician.”.


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—Agony (403) 3 January 2007 at 08:02 (UTC) If there are not enough forces to moderate Agony, should there be more moderators, i.e. lower the admin approval threshold?


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Wouldn't it be easier to define crap, mini-stub, stub, and article in character lengths without personally insulting the author by claiming his output as crap without substantiating?


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How many hundred promising future authors with such pruning will be removed from the Wikipedia circuit?


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The opportunity for growth would be exponential, but for many, mere gentle linearity is sufficient.


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Y2007 January 3, 2007 at 1:03pm (UTC) I understand.


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Ras talks above about your “premature rubbish model”, is there a general or desirable order of action for these “not even minityng” but relevant articles, are we allowed to be some time, a minute - an hour - a day? , and then only can be labeled as garbage, after which can be removed immediately?


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Although, in this case, it may not be easy for users to spot an article requiring improvement before deletion.


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—Wipu on 3 January 2007 at 09:23 (UTC) I wonder what in this case was user Y2007 subject to start a personal attack on me when I marked a page with zero data as garbage.


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The user of the page had created three similar zero-data pages in a row, so there was no reason to wait for the article to be improved.


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What kind of practice is impossible in Y2007 to break the page with the phrase “Timo Eränkö has become known among others.


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as a songwriter and one of the singers of an orchestra named Lapinlahti Linnut.


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“, any obligation when, as far as I know, there is no obligation to expand any pages without extension? —J 3 January 2007 at 00:34 (UTC) Timo Eränkö apparently does not have zero information, so obviously labeling this point as garbage was unjustified.


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There is a mini-stub model for minitung, which should not be used for minityng and not use the “junk” label as a substitute for it.


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The suspicion personally of the attack must still remain unsubstantiated.


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Y2007 at 12:54pm (UTC) On January 3, 2007, what wonder prevented you from writing something worth knowing on that page, rather than spending your time complaining about the things other users do and don'ts.


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Let us tell you again that I did not really see in the SENTENCE “Timo Eränkö has become known among others.


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as a songwriter and one of the singers of an orchestra named Lapinlahti Linnut.”


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any value that would have made it worth marking as an article; the same “information” already appears on the band's article page.


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The personal attack, I think, is that you start coming up with miraculous motives and power aspirations as the background for some single and entirely compliant act of rules.


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And since you see the need to repeatedly suspect that I am trying to become an administrator by making unwarranted and unnecessary changes, I am stating here that if anyone ever mistook me to suggest as an administrator, then I will absolutely refuse that honor. —J 3 January 2007 at 1:17 p.m. (UTC) Definition of Minityngä The discussion above on Timo Eränkö has shown that the rubbish model is used in the opinion of the moderator for articles that are too short, for which one could use minitkänkä-modelling.


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The moderation is therefore not carried out on the basis of the significance of the subject matter, but on the basis of the length of the article.


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Y2007 January 3, 2007 at 13:07 (UTC) Is there any opinion on what character count is enough for a minivan not to mark it as garbage based on length?


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With short definitions of a keyword, as such, can be as valuable as other articles on a similar topic.


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Y2007 3 January 2007 at 13:07 (UTC) All minityngs must be removed as garbage!


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If you do not subject the author from chinese more than a miniature, then it is allowed not to write.


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Someone else can make an article later on when you get excited about it.


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—Alexius Manfelt 3 January 2007 at 13:11 (UTC) Wasn't there at some point a vote on the treatment of minitimens decided not to remove them as garbage?


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In fact, to the question of the difference between mini-nugu and rubbish, I would say the following: Rubbish is a mere definition (in the style of Lech is a tributary) or it does not provide very much information besides the definition (rubbish could be, for example, Person X (born-dead) was Helsinki the mayor, that is, besides definition, only in this case, birth and year of death).


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Minitynga, on the other hand, has some information that could actually be useful (not like this: Person X (born-deceased) was the Mayor of Helsinki.


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He was human.


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He was a Finn.


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ie, no obvious truisms).


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—Green Bonsai 3 January 2007 at 1:19pm (UTC) Wikipedia:Closed votes #Minitynkien and processing of dictionary definitions in the Finnish Wikipedia.


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The vote decided Wikipedia's operating model with respect to minityk.


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At that time, though, there were fewer users, and the turnout was not particularly high either.


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As a result, another vote could be held on the treatment of mini-tynics at some point.


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—Green Bonsai 3 January 2007 at 1:30pm (UTC) Search word-minitkä-stub article Many people think that all articles in encyclopedias are article length.


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If you look at, say, the articles in Finnish pocket encyclopedias, there is quite clearly a mini-column with nothing but a search term and a short definition in a sentence or two.


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81.175.156.161 3 January 2007 at 15:27 (UTC) In fact, the word minituck is bad or very Finnish, anglism, minitumpista, ministubb.


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If we wanted to describe something that is not yet in the growth stage, but for which something is still hoped, it might be appropriate to use the Finnish word embryo to the beginning.


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81.175.156.161 3 January 2007 at 15:27 (UTC) Articles could, according to the extent of the content, be divided into a search word article with no more than a very short definition, into an article embryo that is the current minibar in length, to be supplemented by an article that is a stub, an article by which would be to measure a computer checkered or two and into a series of articles that would correspond to, say, the Otava Great Encyclopaedia or another similar set of articles of a few pages, where there are sections.


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81.175.156.161 3 January 2007 at 15:27 (UTC) The Junk model should not be used as a measure of article length, but to indicate qualitative impropriety.


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In addition, templates should include instructions behind the link on how to extend the article (translation from other Wikipedias, images from the Commons or yourself slightly lightened and sharpened) etc. 81.175.156.161 3 January 2007 at 15:27 (UTC) Current the modeling habit leads to conflict and pointless voting.


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81.175.156.161 3 January 2007 at 15:27 (UTC) First of all, I would like to remind you that the Finnish Wikipedia has held a vote on the naming of minitimens, so it is hardly worth changing the designation.


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Secondly, I would say that the current labelling of dictionary definitions as rubbish is a very good practice, because otherwise anyone could shove some crappy snippets in here whose information value would be abysmal (e.g. a car has a means of transport, Burkina Faso is a state, Blue is a colour).


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—Green Bonsai 3 January 2007 at 15:31 (UTC) Vote on designation of minitimens: Discussion on Wikipedia:Mini Pitch/Vote2.


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—Green Bonsai 3 January 2007 at 15:36 (UTC) Amusing!


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So there's no vote on any name in Finnish, but whether the ministubb is a little like a Morris Mini or a mini skirt or a miniature stub in the style of a miniature model.


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One should strive for the short matter and not reverse oddities by leaving them as Anglisms effectively untranslated.


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81.175.156.161 3 January 2007 at 15:43 (UTC) Who has the right to create new votes and how soon after the last vote has ended?


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As far as I know, the Finnish Wikipedia does not have a clear guideline on this, so I will ask you here: Who has the right to create new votes and how soon after the last vote has ended?


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I refer this to the page created by user Y2007 inWikipedia:Changing the vote/admin voting threshold, although this is currently being voted on.


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It doesn't seem reasonable that after the vote ends in a few weeks there will be a new and similar vote.


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So should there be some kind of time limit on how long a period of time to get another vote on such issues?


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Also, the question is who gets to start voting.


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Are you allowed to start voting if you are eligible to vote?


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This would mean that some vandal could make a few hundred sensible edits and then start initiating unnecessary votes on topics that have already been decided.


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Should there be some definite limit (X amount of edits and as a user X over time) that those who undercut shouldn't trigger such votes?


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—Green Bonsai 3 January 2007 at 13:45 (UTC) Good question!


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Nowhere is the basic rights of registered authors to discuss or make presentations restricted.


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The only exception to this is that voter rights have been willfully removed by randomly making claims that these have shaped too little.


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However, nowhere is it shown what amount of editing is not enough to exercise the right to vote.


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Vandalism is starting to be as loose a justification for will-wielding and random procedural action as the international war on terror.


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Not a single state fighting that war has declared a state of war, not even martial law.


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Of course, it would be advantageous for the old people not to re-examine the day-burning issue, even from a new perspective, for the next 100 years.


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Y2007, 3 January 2007 at 13:49 (UTC) Should we therefore start voting on this topic too?


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I think the question is important and timely and influences many of Wikipedia's votes.


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By making clear boundaries, debates over who are eligible to vote and who are not could be avoided.


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The English Wikipedia has (to my knowledge) not yet come into serious disputes on the subject, but there may be disputes.


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Let's imagine a situation where one user's voice resolves.


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One party thinks the user's edits and time of registration are not sufficient and the other side thinks they are.


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To prevent such a quarrel, it was necessary to form a clear practice on the issue.


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I personally would support a median vote that would vote first on the number of edits, then the length of user attendance, and also how long it has to take since the last vote before you get a new vote No yes it makes sense to vote on the same thing little matter, but that the current voting has been started without discussing for a second the voting rules.


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I propose that the vote now underway be suspended and the result annulled.


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—ilaiho (choose) 3 January 2007 at 13:58 (UTC) I would not personally disagree, but I would not make the case because there should be arguments.


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The weakness of the current vote, which, of course, does not have to be the actual reason for the suspension, nor the statement of justification, is that the ballot motion directly states that the limit should be lowered.


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The more correct design is that it should be changed.


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Another weakness is that the vote is claimed to be the median vote.


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This is not the case, and cannot be, because if less than one hundred persons presented individual percentages (fractions would be prohibited), it would in some case be enough for two persons to present even if 99% or 1% and the other percentages had one or no gold gold at all supporters.


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Wikipedia is full of loose policies, which takes time to implement and the results of which are contradictory.


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One should get our act together a little bit and lay out principles on how to decide and which procedures do not infringe on the principles.


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I propose the name distribution voting for the median type value, because the counting takes place at both ends and the extremes are allowed to read the votes of the middle part of the distribution to their advantage.


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Y2007 3 January 2007 at 2:06pm (UTC) Huh?


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I wonder if you've now correctly understood the idea of the median vote.


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The idea is precisely that you can't tow a vote result in the direction you want by voting for oversize (100%) or over-low (0%) values.


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-Aslak 3 January 2007 at 14:26 (UTC) for Iirolaiho, what do you mean there has been no discussion of the rules?


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There is no debate in them, and that vote has been “pending” for months, because the opinion poll result did not please everyone.


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The median vote is probably the only workable one, as to who gets to take part in the vote I can't say anything.


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—Zxc 3 January 2007 at 18:45 (UTC) Removing registered users in some polls by ballot administrators reject votes on the grounds that voters do not have the number of edits they want.


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How, for example, can voting on an article be removed by this principle without clearly stating the conditions, on the basis of which the right to vote is claimed to be non-existent?


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This leads to arbitrary insofar as the quality of voting rights varies in different votes depending on the organizer and supervisor of the vote.


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Claims are often made that authors write with more registered IDs at the same time.


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If this is claimed, should anyone have the right to claim all suspect IDs as their own and add the edits to their own merit, for example, as an extension of the editing statistic?


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This procedure, too, is questionable because authors who do not use the ID may have n x 255 different IDs according to the respective dynamic IP or more.


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The norm spirit seems to result in a failure to understand what it means to have free source code or free source encyclopedia.


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However, the issue of abolishing the right to vote is a civil rights issue in the community, which should be justified.


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Now I haven't looked in the old logs to see who has removed the most upvotes in upvotes, but that's probably where they can be found.


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Why, and on what grounds, is someone justified in removing another's right to vote by rejecting the vote he gives, on the grounds that there are too few edits according to his personal perception?


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Wouldn't it be right to indicate a sufficient number of edits so someone could easily, within a short period of time, pruning or stylizing other people's articles, acquire a sufficient number of edits.


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The fact that a large number of small edits are suitable for some members of the passport population, but not for the active population or for specialists who have not yet retired and therefore do not yet have days off.


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Some families with children cared for by the father also suffer from that attitude.


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Y2007 at 2:06pm (UTC) As far as I know, the voting rights limit is about a hundred edits.


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The practice is admittedly bad, but it's hard to come up with a better one because otherwise it would be too easy to manipulate the polls by voting multiple times.


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—Aslak 3 January 2007 at 14:15 (UTC) As far as I know, is just part of the problem.


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There is no official policy, so you can dismiss sounds with a minnow feel.


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If they say, “The right to vote is about 100 votes”, there will be problems as soon as someone (whose voice solves) has something like 99 edits or the like...


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Therefore, one should get a clear policy of X editing for X months as a registered user.


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—Green Bonsai on 3 January 2007 at 2:18pm (UTC) So, in disputes, user A can reject user B's voice, justifying “I think the limit is a hundred edits”.


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Then user C overturns the rejection performed by user A, justifying: “As far as I know, the limit is only 90" At worst, a dispute arises over the issue.


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If the instructions read: “Limit is X modifications” such a dispute would be avoided.


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—Green Bonsai 3 January 2007 at 14:20 (UTC) I agree, the limit should be obtained.


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There was a recent discussion about it, but I can't remember where.


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—Aslak 3 January 2007 at 14:21 (UTC) Would there have been a vote on the abolition of the rights of JOONASL on Dragon's right to vote?


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Wikipedia:Administrators to be deleted/Joonasl #Dragonin voting rights —Green Bonsai 3 January 2007 at 2:22pm (UTC) There is also some discussion here: Discussion on Wikipedia:Vote #Äänten rejection.


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-Aslak 3 January 2007 at 2:23pm (UTC) The discussion I was referring to was lower: Discussion on Wikipedia:Vote #Äänestysoikeuden determination.


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There was an attempt to push through a proposal that the suffrage limit would be one hundred edits and one month, but no consensus was reached.


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-Aslak 3 January 2007 at 14:29 (UTC) In other words, all registered persons are still allowed to vote and other kinds of claims are invalid.


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81.175.156.161 3 January 2007 at 15:14 (UTC) Not the case.


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Read —Tevete 3 January 2007 at 18:10 (UTC) Voting restrictions As a rule, all registered users of Wikipedia can vote in the polls.


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However, there are some general exceptions to this: If the vote is for any particular person, that person himself cannot vote on the ballot.


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- clear icing principle Votes that do not represent the opinion of real Wikipedia users may be rejected in the upvote.


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This means that, for example: The votes of someone who creates new usernames to manipulate voting.


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- practically not the people vote, but the IDs Usernames, which were apparently created for voting, are rejected.


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- each one vote for Usernames whose editing history is almost non-existent, votes are rejected.


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- “Almost non-existent is an arbitrary definition, it should be removed from the votes of Usernames whose editing history consists mostly of edits related to the person or article being voted on.


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- “essentially is an arbitrary definition, it should be removed after the start of voting, the votes of usernames created will be rejected.


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- this is not true either, but a four-day limit has been required, which has not been decided either.


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These instructions are copied from elsewhere and the right to vote has not been decided anywhere.


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81.175.156.161 4 January 2007 at 08:23 (UTC) Voting principles Voting principles should be discussed.


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The reasonable thing would be for voting to begin only after it has been possible to form an opinion and debate the issue.


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Therefore, voting should only begin when interested parties had time to take an interest in the matter and get a username to vote.


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On-line gallup is not an enlightened democracy because it doesn't have the opportunity to debate the show.


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Another thing is that voting options and voting time should be carefully defined so that the result does not become so much ambiguity. Also, the abolition of the right to vote should be justified for legal safeguards.


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Y2007 3 January 2007 at 2:09pm (UTC) Wikipedia is not a court and the concept of “legal protection” is not known here.


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—Joonasl (tell) January 3, 2007 at 2:14pm (UTC) Of course Wikipedia is subject to US law and Wikipedia applies all principles of Western society, including democracy, under US law.


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One should not imagine being able to create your own world, which is completely free from states or from the international system.


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81.175.156.161 January 3, 2007 at 15:16 (UTC) As far as I know, US law does not order websites to comply with the rule of law.


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—ilaiho (choose) 3 January 2007 at 18:21 (UTC) Well I now :-) There are special ideas about what Wikipedia is.


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Wikipedia is not an enlightened democracy (hardly a democracy at all, if carefully thought through).


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Wikipedia is an on-line encyclopedia, on-line gallup is therefore just the appropriate form of decision making.


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On Wikipedia, the right to vote is not lost, it is gained.


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—Marimba 3 January 2007 at 18:58 (UTC) The suggestion that voting should be held only when interested parties have had time to obtain a user ID is, in my opinion, pretty bad.


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Wouldn't it happen then that some people would create a username and do the necessary amount of thumbedits just to get upvoted?


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Wikipedia wouldn't benefit much because edits wouldn't necessarily be of very high quality.


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In addition, decision-making would slow down even more when you have to dwell on months for someone inactive to increase their modification rates.


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—Green Bonsai 3 January 2007 at 14:15 (UTC) Voting requires discretion, which is why it is quite right to unite, gather and organise and acquire the rights necessary to vote.


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In some countries, where not everyone is already registered with an ID number, you must register separately to vote.


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As for the lack of quality of edits, it is a direct result of the fact that maintainer-upvotes specifically value a large amount of quality editing, which the authors may perceive mainly as a nuisance.


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You get what you space.


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Quality editing is a prerequisite for getting as many modifications as possible in the edit counter.


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81.175.156.161 3 January 2007 at 15:18 (UTC) I don't think it's good if some people create a username solely for voting purposes.


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Besides, how would such waiting for others to sign up be arranged?


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Would we add a paragraph at the end of the discussion about unregistered users wanting to register before voting starts, where IPs would add themselves to the list and then wait until each of them created a username?


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Sounds really stupid (at least in my opinion) because then you wouldn't get to start voting until everyone willing had created an ID.


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I can say I am against such a practice.


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—Green Bonsai 3 January 2007 at 15:23 (UTC) I do not think it is good that it is precisely for similar motives that administrator candidates modify inappropriately without checking things more widely.


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Modification activity has become an epidemic, lowering the quality of the operation.


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If initiation of voicing was prohibited before five days have elapsed from the vote proposal, there would be time to debate before the voicing.


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Have you ever heard of polling without campaign time?


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After all, they are not polls, but on-line polls usually with rather unhappy question layouts.


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81.175.156.161 3 January 2007 at 15:40 (UTC) If overzealous administrator candidates are a problem, do not justify creating more problems (overzealous voters who create an ID just for voting, producing a bunch of unqualitative edits).


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—Green Bonsai 3 January 2007 at 15:43 (UTC) Holding a vote on who is eligible to vote on this issue should therefore be held or is it successful through debate?


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Personally, I'd recommend a median vote to decide the number of edits required, the time required when registered, and how many different articles need to be edited.


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I would like to have opinions on the matter now.


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In my opinion, a vote is needed, because if it is decided to resolve the issue through debate, however, there will be weeks of debate and there will still be no consensus.


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The median vote, on the other hand, would settle the issue faster.


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Well, I'll stay and wait for the other people's comment.


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—Green Bonsai on 3 January 2007 at 15:20 (UTC) It would be worth reading carefully the earlier discussions.


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In Wikipedia, the limit on the right to vote currently goes in whether the voter is an actual Wikipedia user, and not in any number of edits.


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As discussed before, it is not possible to determine the right to vote by the amount of editing or the age of the ID.


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Nevertheless, a view has arisen in the discussions that the nth month and n.


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The 100 edits are about the fact that there is a person behind the username who can be considered a real user of Wikipedia.


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-Samulili on 3 January 2007 at 15:27 (UTC) The vision born is not enough.


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There needs to be a clear policy.


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After all, a new practice cannot be created in such a way as to discuss the issue and then leave no decisions.


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Right now, every person who rejects a vote is making their decision based on their own comprehension of the issue.


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There are a lot of different opinions and at some point rejecting a voice easily leads to an argument.


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If the rejected vote was decisive, the dispute could get really big.


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Therefore, I recommend creating a new practice.


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Disputes would be prevented and there would be a clear line between who gets to vote and who doesn't.


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—Green Bonsai 3 January 2007 at 15:40 (UTC) I think there should be a clear section on the quantities in the instructions, as fresh users repeatedly regret when their votes are deleted.


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Now only invoked the debate that took place, but when the exact numbers were in the guidelines, there would be no ambiguity.


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And I guess there needs to be a vote on it so you can add it to the instructions?


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—Ulrika 3 January 2007 at 15:34 (UTC) Good point, but the new users are not actually cared about and they continue their journey - elsewhere on the Interent.


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81.175.156.161 3 January 2007 at 15:37 (UTC) Yes I think some minimum limits could be added to the right to vote as proposed by Green Bonsai.


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—Wipu on 3 January 2007 at 15:54 (UTC) I was still wondering if anyone is going to monitor that only the votes of those eligible to vote are counted?


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There may be some work if you manually have to do it.


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—Wipu on January 3, 2007 at 5:11 p.m. (UTC) You mean who checks how many edits the person who voted has, that is, is they eligible to vote?


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It shouldn't produce puzzles, after all, we have at our disposal.


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—Green Bonsai 3 January 2007 at 17:17 (UTC) This is exactly what I meant, if one of those three points after the vote verifies, at least in case of doubt, then this is fine.


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Probably always more interested still check out.


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I hope you don't need voice sloths to choose from.


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—Wipu 3 January 2007 at 20:18 (UTC) The editing counter was recently crashed for many days and even now it has a delay of more than 4 days.


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So it is a very unreliable tool for defining the right to vote.


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I would certainly require hand-counting based on latency (in the style of “Yes I have sufficient edits, the counter reading is wrong”).


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—Marimba on January 3, 2007 at 7:03pm (UTC) All registered voters are eligible to vote, as no other restriction has been imposed.


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The fact that you wouldn't be allowed to vote until 4 days after registering should be checked somewhere because there doesn't seem to be a basis for it.


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Nor to the fact that the right to vote is not a right, but that it should somehow be earned through modifying work service, the quality of which, however, is not to be controlled.


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81.175.156.161 3 January 2007 at 15:29 (UTC) So you are suggesting that the user be free to create a bunch of sock puppets and vote n times?


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-Aslak January 3, 2007 at 17:23 (UTC) Not true.


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Read the current policy —Tevete on 3 January 2007 at 18:10 (UTC) Proposal to hold a vote. I see at least some users think that it would be worthwhile to have a clear policy.


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So, would it be okay to have a median vote deciding the following: How many edits does it take to be eligible to vote?


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How long do you have to be a user in order to be eligible to vote?


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How many different articles do you have to edit to be upvoted?


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This would create a clear policy that would at the same time prevent disputes and clarify practices.


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Anyone object to this suggestion?


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—Green Bonsai on 3 January 2007 at 17:04 (UTC) For every 5000 edits, two upvotes should be enabled;).


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Since the number of users increases so considerably, I suggest that 200 edits, at least 20 different articles, more than a month as a user, and no more than 3month edit breaks.


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This would be good to have as practice in any vote.


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It is pointless to reorganize this vote.


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—Zxc 3 January 2007 at 17:23 (UTC) Uh, are you saying that this has already been voted on, or that if you put the bar high enough, there is no need to vote again later when the number of users and the number of people making small edits increases?


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—Green Bonsai 3 January 2007 at 17:26 (UTC) Exact rules are absolutely pointless, there is nothing wrong with the current system.


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We are not idiots who would need precise numeral rules to decide who is the correct ID and who sock puppet.


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Those limits would be determined by voting again more or less arbitrarily and there are too many unnecessary votes anyway.


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—ML on January 3, 2007 at 5:29pm (UTC) Three months is a ridiculous requirement, a year at least.


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-Aslak 3 January 2007 at 17:28 (UTC) This is exactly what we need to vote for.


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There are many differences in views, so a (median) vote is needed to establish a clear policy.


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That length of editing breaks can also be voted on.


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—Green Bonsai 3 January 2007 at 17:31 (UTC) Better to be without any absolute limits, but some guideline would be nice to have.


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Last time in an opinion poll, it fell short of about 100 edits with no other criteria.


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Could raise that limit a little.


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—Zxc 3 January 2007 at 17:35 (UTC) In that opinion poll, however, there was quite strong support for setting precise limits precisely because otherwise the issue will be raised every week.


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-Aslak 3 January 2007 at 17:37 (UTC) There is no weeklong haloo coming from it.


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The median vote determines thresholds actually completely arbitrarily in cases like that as “acceptable edit pause”, which nobody really has any opinion about.


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It is considerably better to look at such “multivariate” things on a case-by-case basis, with advanced human means of outlining.


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Adjusting the number limits of many variables, compared to them, is woefully straightforward and even comical.


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—ML 3 January 2007 at 17:57 (UTC) If there is no clear practice, there is a high risk of a major dispute.


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Problems come up as soon as someone's voice resolves and this user is just borderline.


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Would it be worth holding a vote on whether clear boundaries are needed?


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—Green Bonsai 3 January 2007 at 18:00 (UTC) Yes suffrage arises at short intervals, and this is at least a few times that such a practice has been proposed.


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-Aslak 3 January 2007 at 18:09 (UTC) I am in favour of holding a vote.


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Otherwise, this issue will be wringing hands —Tevete on 3 January 2007 at 18:28 (UTC) A real user of Wikipedia should read carefully what has been discussed earlier.


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In Wikipedia, the limit on the right to vote currently goes in whether the voter is an actual Wikipedia user, and not in any number of edits.


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As discussed before, it is not possible to determine the right to vote by the amount of editing or the age of the ID.


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Nevertheless, a view has arisen in the discussions that the nth month and n.


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The 100 edits are about the fact that there is a person behind the username who can be considered a real user of Wikipedia.


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-Samulili 3 January 2007 at 15:27 (UTC) Some people have read the old submissions as mentioned above and come to the conclusion that no decent citizen of Wikipedia, the REAL user of Wikipedia, has ever been defined.


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Thus, the result of the multi-vote vote will be renewed because it has been unjustifiably put votes cast by registered voters in the wreck because it has been assumed that the right to vote would have been limited by some law, although this is at least demonstrably not the case.


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In no democratic or constitutional system is the right to vote defined by proper citizenship, but by citizenship and loss of civil trust has been decided separately.


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At the level of opinion, though, one might guess that the real user of Wikipedia is an elementary schooler or high school student who wants Google easier to find out about some things.


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He may also be a pensioner who, during his school days, read only German.


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In addition, Wikipedia's true users include younger editors who get column stuffing from Wikipedia making it famous even in print media.


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This is probably the most typical real users.


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81.175.156.161 It's hard to say anything about Wikipedia writers because scatter is like firing a shotgun.


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They are a minority of users and a special case.


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81.175.156.161 You're forgetting that Wikipedia isn't meant to implement the ideal of democracy, but to produce an encyclopedia.


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Polls have purely instrumental significance, and the decision to reject an individual vote is not a big matter of principle.


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—ML 3 January 2007 at 5:17pm (UTC) What is the ideal of democracy?


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Scientific writing is tied to the research method considered almost correct in the discipline and the resulting theory formation.


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In other words, in science, theory is limited to accepting the results produced by the research method or criticizing the research method, bringing about methoddevelopment for its next step.


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Would you explain in more detail what it means that Wikipedia isn't a democracy?


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Of course it's a democracy because Wikipedia doesn't have scientifically qualified or school-bound users of some discipline, but is a free-source encyclopedia.


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What democracy - if such a thing existed in the parliamentary sense in the home country of the Wikipedia Foundation, where the hokema is apparently from, is or would be, of course, not predictable, nor what democracy would cause to the world if it were to be pursued next Monday in China, for example.


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81.175.156.161 3 January 2007 at 17:33 (UTC) “Would you explain in more detail what it means that Wikipedia is not a democracy?”.


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Look over there: Wikipedia:Which Wikipedia isn't (the Wikipedia community isn't...).


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“Of course, it is a democracy, because Wikipedia does not have scientifically qualified users or committed to the school of some discipline, but is an encyclopedia of free source”.


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False dichotomy, though not very rare.


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The idea behind how Wikipedia works is actually pretty elusive, and many see exactly these options: person and vote-democracy or top-controlled despotia.


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However, it is a misconception.


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—ML on January 3, 2007 at 6:01pm (UTC) Which one is a misconception?


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Is it that Wikipedia is a despotia of deletist oligarchs or that it is a network of vandalistic inclusion women with no rules?


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81.175.156.161 3 January 2007 at 22:50 (UTC) for ML: I am sick of reading those long lines of IP, but I commented on your sentence that the decision to dismiss an individual vote is not a matter of principle.


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Not for Wikipedia, but it is for the voter in question.


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If he first time on wikipedia and gets a boring rebuff with no justification, Wikipedia could lose, in the worst case scenario, a good, knowledgeable editor.


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—Ulrika 3 January 2007 at 17:37 (UTC) It takes years to read a text, but you are still young.


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The right to vote is a fundamental right of every person and to nullify it is a serious violation of individual human rights.


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For example, if you were to be put in a bann forever with turkish concepts, you would probably consider it a significant act, but apparently you calculate that you are always on the right side of the power of the world in any case.


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81.175.156.161 3 January 2007 at 22:49 (UTC) It is not necessary to do it bluntly, but you can articulate it politely.


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Getting the right to vote doesn't even require any particularly long hobby.


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—ML 3 January 2007 at 18:01 (UTC) How long a hobby does it require today considering that there are no restrictions yet?


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81.175.156.161 3 January 2007 at 22:49 (UTC) I did not mean rude in form, but that the voter in question will find it boring anyway if it is only a comment by an individual user, no matter how much it is wrapped in silk paper and perfumed with a rose scent.


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—Ulrika 3 January 2007 at 18:12 (UTC) Well leave out the smells and clearly state your position.


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81.175.156.161 4 January 2007 at 08:27 (UTC) But how is the case justified to that user?


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“We have no policy on Wikipedia, but I feel that your vote is worth rejecting” doesn't sound very reasonable.


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Practice relevant is required.


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—Green Bonsai on 3 January 2007 at 18:03 (UTC) We have a so-called 'cause. “rough consensus”, which is commonplace in ew and which would be more reliable here too.


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—ML on January 3, 2007 at 6:05pm (UTC) What is the rough consensus in your own opinion?


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Who are the gritties who use consensus against the new and the soft?


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81.175.156.161 January 3, 2007 at 22:56 (UTC) In the absence of official practice, disputes easily arise.


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I have said this several times before, but I will say it again: When one user vote resolves the vote and the user is borderline, there is a high risk of an argument.


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I ask ML directly: Are you against the creation of an official policy on the matter?


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—Green Bonsai 3 January 2007 at 18:08 (UTC) If official practice is a euphemism for a collection of fixed reading limits in the style of “edits at least 200", “edited at least twenty articles”, “as a user of at least 3months”, “from previous edit up to 2months”, then I object sure.


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Voting rights assessment makes more sense to do on a case-by-case basis based on some sort of rules of thumb, among other things, because it doesn't leave similar loopholes for sockpuppets and other troublemakers as exact limits.


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—ML on January 3, 2007 at 6:24pm (UTC) In other words, you thought your own opinion was enough to define the removal of someone else's fundamental right.


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No wonder dissatisfaction only increases.


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81.175.156.161 3 January 2007 at 22:56 (UTC) What is the “rough consensus”?


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Such consensuses come up every now and then, and they are arbitrary in Finnish.


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Some admins specialize in them.


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—Ulrika 3 January 2007 at 18:12 (UTC) You are gradually beginning to learn.


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Rough concensus is raw arbitrary in Finnish.


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81.175.156.161 at 08:32 (UTC) on 4 January 2007 See. —ML on January 3, 2007 at 6:25pm (UTC) “the “dominant view” of a group as determined by its chairperson”, is this what you meant?


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And who is that chairperson?


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You?


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So you probably meant as a joke.


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—Ulrika 3 January 2007 at 18:43 (UTC) No consensus has ever been observed here, only done mainly by vandalism delegation.


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The consensus of the rough could be fleshed out into some sort of shouting vote by hardliners, where a minority is enough for majority and domination.


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81.175.156.161 3 January 2007 at 22:56 (UTC) Agree with ML: let's trust more on that summary consensus.


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I feel like Wikipedia has been overrun by some sort of obsession with deciding by voting on all possible issues.


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I think we should have more debate and resort to votes only in exceptional cases.


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That ongoing median vote to calculate the admin voting threshold has been somewhat hastily started, but let it go.


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In no way should we vote for the same thing a second time in February because one user thinks January is a bad month for voting.


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—Lebha 3 January 2007 at 18:19 (UTC) And this is a direct result of the fact that new arrivals will not be admitted as administrators until they have proven themselves to be iron-strength deletists by blood.


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The same phenomenon is illustrated by the voting of old oligarchs from among administrators.


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Finnish Wiki comes to teenage years, where you want to try rights.


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81.175.156.161 at 22:56 (UTC) On 3 January 2007, if some hefty precise limits are reached, they must be set higher, as low precise limits allow easy creation of multiple voting rights usernames.


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High limits, on the other hand, result in the problem that the ordinary, albeit how real the user, is for a long time disenfranchised.


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I think current practice is good, but one should perhaps use the phrase established real user for example.


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— Piisamson on 3 January 2007 at 18:33 (UTC) In other words, a real user is not enough, but must be an established real user.


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What if a higher degree completed and age 22 or even if the rank of reserve officer were set as a requirement?


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81.175.156.161 at 22:56 (UTC), 3 January 2007, come on, come on.


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Wikipedia is not a democracy, and here no one has any innate God-given rights.


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Wikipedia is a web site whose owner, the Wikimedia Foundation, has the right to do whatever he wants to do with it.


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If the foundation decided that the right to vote rests only with Jimmy Wales, then no one would have any basis to stutter about any “legal protection” or “civil rights.”


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“Real user” can be defined any way, even if Christians don't have the right to vote, and there's nothing wrong with that because Wikipedia is not a state.


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Wikipedia is a private web site.


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And voting is not a very good means of deciding things anyway, see.


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en:WP:DDV.


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- C12H22O11 (speech) on January 4, 2007 at 08:37 (UTC) In other words, autonomy must be waived and informed of wrongdoing directly to Jimmy, for example, in maintenance or address disclosure.


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I wonder what Stockholm would think of this.


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81.175.156.161 4 January 2007 at 08:35 (UTC) What “abuses”?


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Neither you nor anyone else have any “rights” that could be “abused”.


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And I don't think you could care less about the foundation.


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Now understand that Wikipedia is a service produced by a private foundation whose terms and conditions can be defined by the Foundation completely independently, and you must accept them if you want to use the service.


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- C12H22O11 (speech) on January 4, 2007 at 08:40 (UTC) Just like that.


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I can create an arbitrary media on my own machine where I band users based on race, religion, political affiliation and disease.


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Nobody has anything to say about that. —Tevete on 4 January 2007 at 10:01 (UTC) Vote on the need for a new practice?


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Would it be worthwhile to hold a vote now on whether such a new policy is needed on who are eligible to vote (whether you need to specify exact limits for edits, etc.).


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Clearly some users oppose the introduction of such a policy and some are in favour, so there could be a vote.


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First, there would be a vote on whether this practice was needed and the majority would win.


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If the new policy was to be introduced, a vote would be taken on which issues should be taken into account in determining the right to vote (e.g.


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edits, time of being registered, etc.)


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and finally, the median vote on the new limits.


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What do we think of this proposal?


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—Green Bonsai 3 January 2007 at 18:30 (UTC) I mean three votes.


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Hooray... -Aslak 3 January 2007 at 18:31 (UTC) I support holding a vote on the voting rights threshold.


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Otherwise, I am in favour of the first vote, but perhaps the final decision could be made more smoothly if the result of the 1st vote is positive.


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-Aslak 3 January 2007 at 18:38 (UTC) I support.


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Let's take one advisory, and get this right at once.


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It takes a little effort, but that's where it is.


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It can get a worse situation than it is now if you make an overly inflexible package.


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—Ras January 3, 2007 at 18:39 (UTC) What is a rough consensus or rough concensus?


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81.175.156.161 4 January 2007 at 09:12 (UTC) I object.


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Precise limits do not improve but weaken the current situation.


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Produce stringent counting and give troublemakers a nice loophole.


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And the whole proposed voting procedure is incredibly convoluted given the openness of the issue.


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—ML 3 January 2007 at 18:41 (UTC) Are you in favour of the current situation, where the organiser determines, on the basis of votes already cast, who was entitled to vote posthumously or that voting rights should not be restricted?


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81.175.156.161 4 January 2007 at 09:01 (UTC) What if precise public boundaries were defined to be used as a basis for rough consensus?


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It would still have a flexibility element involved.


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—Ras January 3, 2007 at 18:47 (UTC) I object.


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ML made a very nasty argument.


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Contemporary practice has apparently not caused any abuse, or ambiguous situations.


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—Marimba on 3 January 2007 at 18:44 (UTC) This may have happened, but no one has yet begun to defend their rights, knowing they will remain second.


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81.175.156.161 4 January 2007 at 09:02 (UTC) I support.


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Because after that the bickering stops, and moreover, there is a clear point to the rejected voters.


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—Ulrika 3 January 2007 at 18:45 (UTC) There is therefore support for reducing arbitrary moderation.


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81.175.156.161 At 09:08 (UTC) 4 January 2007, I naturally support my own proposal.


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My arguments have already been made at the earliest stages of the debate.


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—Green Bonsai 3 January 2007 at 18:47 (UTC) I am against voting too much.


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I don't think it's constructive in terms of wiki communality.


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—Lebha 3 January 2007 at 18:54 (UTC) I oppose any precise limits on voting rights.


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——Mikkem (♫) 3 January 2007 at 20:11 (UTC) Do you not think the voter has the right to know whether he or she has the right to vote or not?


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What if, even after the results were revealed to the Electoral Commission in March, your vote was invalidated on the grounds that you have not been active enough, for example, in newspaper audiences or Suomi24?


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81.175,156.161 At 22:42 (UTC) on 3 January 2007, Wikipedia has no voters, but users.


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If your main interest is voting, you should go vote though the parliamentary elections.


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But I guess I was trolling again.


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—Mikkom (♫) 3 January 2007 at 22:50 (UTC) Based on that thinking, therefore, there is no community, but the Wikipedia foundation and occasional consumers of it.


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That idea crashed duuni.net when Talentum started using it as an attachment to their commercial material as well as restrict.


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The voter is the one who votes.


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Thus, the fact that there is a user does not preclude being a voter as well.


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In fact, voting is about users, in which case voters are a subset of users.


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Could you clarify a bit about your position that it would become understood?


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81.175.156.161 4 January 2007 at 08:30 (UTC) I will clarify.


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Precise voting limits result in administrators/users being unable to exercise discretion anymore, and this makes sockpupeting easy, thus destroying the whole idea of polling.


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——Mikkem (♫) 6 January 2007 at 16:39 (UTC) I support the holding of a vote on whether to hold a formal vote.


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—Jannex 3 January 2007 at 20:58 (UTC) I object, Wikipedia is not a democracy, and voting is stupid.


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Decisions should be made by consensus, and there really is no need for any definite limits on “voting rights” because there is no such thing.


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- C12H22O11 (speech) on January 4, 2007 at 08:44 (UTC) Part 2 of the Tokyo vote can be combined with Part 3 (which would then become Part 2).


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Part 3 would be the median vote, where I decide the exact limits of the edits.


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Some form of no limits on this issue could also be added as an alternative to this vote, in which case part 2 of the votes would not be needed.


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—Green Bonsai on 3 January 2007 at 19:04 (UTC) It would be worthwhile to examine how the current concept of arbitrary restriction on voting rights has been formed.


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Most likely, it's a cheap translation of an early US texist, but it has not been discussed or accepted anywhere.


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81.175.156.161 4 January 2007 at 09:10 (UTC) It is currently valid for every registered user to vote if they have registered the ID four days before the vote.