Question: What things are considered when assessing the possibility of moons to sustain life?

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It is my understanding that all those who reject votes of the eligible to vote without justification should be put on the admin list because they know, or at least should know, that there is no decision to remove the right to vote.


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81.175.156.161 3 January 2007 at 22:44 (UTC) Not the case.


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Read the current policy.


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—Tevete on 4 January 2007 at 05:54 (UTC) The first vote concerns whether voting rights should be restricted.


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If voting rights should be restricted, the following votes concern how it should be restricted.


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81.175.156.161 on 3 January 2007 at 22:45 (UTC) Not really.


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The first vote concerns whether specific limits are needed for the Finnish Wikipedia as to who are allowed to vote.


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The right to vote is currently limited, but the limits are just not precise.


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—Green Bonsai 4 January 2007 at 06:20 (UTC) I am opposed because Wikipedia is not a democracy, voting is bad and things should be decided by consensus.


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Plus, multi-pronged voting sucks from there self.


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—Agony (403) 4 January 2007 at 08:54 (UTC) Would you tell me in your own words what you mean by Wikipedia not a democracy?


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81.175.156.161 4 January 2007 at 09:04 (UTC) In a democracy, matters are decided by majority opinion, voting.


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Wikipedia uses a more pragmatic way, discussion.


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Polls can't be created more than one way right, but in several ways completely up their asses.


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The debate, on the other hand, cannot buckle than in the right direction, in the direction of public opinion.


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Because of this, on Wikipedia, one person can create a practice, and one person opposes the practice.


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In a democracy, one person belongs to either mass A or mass B, and one person has little influence other than by leaving his voice and hoping to belong to the victorious mass.


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This is what I actually mean when I use the term “Wikipedia is not a democracy/Wikipedia is not a democratic experiment”.


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—Agony (403) 4 January 2007 at 09:11 (UTC) The problem with Wikipedia is precisely that it is not to debate, to form an opinion and vote, but as in this case, on the basis of unhappy alternatives, to vote as a paper has in line polls.


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Opinion polling is different than voting.


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Opinion polling describes an opinion at some fairly short time point of time from the point of view of the person setting the question.


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Voting means not storming into measures or even a vote until the issue has been debated, that is, exchanging opinions about what is at issue and what to aim for.


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In that sense, what you claim to be democracy is not democracy, but is line-gallupoint and what you state you are opposing is to name advanced democracy, where you study before hugging and forming an opinion before expressing its position.


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Is public opinion correct unless given time for it to form?


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81.175.156.161 4 January 2007 at 09:15 (UTC) It's not my fault for not knowing how to discuss, build polls or anything else you presented as grievances.


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Unfortunately, your description is Wikipedia's democracy, and you probably now understand why I'm against this all manner of rambling and ass-rambling when it comes to votes.


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Democracy works in the states but not Wikipedia.


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—Agony (403) 4 January 2007 at 09:20 (UTC) Wikipedia foundation is probably a United States foundation, its servers are in the United States and it operates under the laws of the server country.


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This is how Wikipedia comes the legislation of the server country.


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The fact that the foundation allows admin rights is because of it itself, not anything else.


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If going on some sort of Wikipedia goes impossible, you can find a rope very quickly to abuse in the United States.


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If the server was on the moon or Mars, there would be another thing.


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81.175.138.138 4 January 2007 at 16:06 (UTC) And silly fool.


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You are free to set up any kind of web site in the United States, as long as you don't spread child porn or warez, for example.


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—ilaiho (choose) 11 January 2007 at 17:04 (UTC) I support.


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Gotta get clear regulations for the right to vote.


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Personally, I support equal voting rights for everyone, rather than artificial limits based on the quantities of edits, for example.


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A registered name brand suffice.


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—Taulapa on 4 January 2007 at 09:22 (UTC) I object.


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There is an understanding that new practices could be exhausted by voting by a simple majority.


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Can't.


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Practice can only arise if there is sufficient consensus.


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—Hasdrubal 4 January 2007 at 09:39 (UTC) Mr Hasdrubal good, then there will be a vote on whether a new practice is needed or not.


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So why would opponents of the practice have some sort of “advantage” over others?


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After all, things have been decided here before by majority vote (e.g. in naming articles).


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—Green Bonsai 4 January 2007 at 09:42 (UTC) Individual article names are not decisions on practice, but application of practice adopted by consensus.


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Without consensus, no practice will emerge.


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Wikipedia's decision making model can be studied e.g. here:.


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—Hasdrubal 4 January 2007 at 09:49 (UTC) Who decides how big the consensus must be?


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70% perhaps?


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Maybe 80%?


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Moreover, even now, a vote was taken to calculate the vote threshold for the maintenance vote before that median vote, where no consensus was reached and right now the vote threshold is being lowered.


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—Green Bonsai 4 January 2007 at 09:56 (UTC) I oppose —Joonasl (tell) 4 January 2007 at 09:53 (UTC) I oppose — Jniemenma on 4 January 2007 at 10:09am (UTC) I object, there are always loopholes in the precise rules that can be exploited.


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— Piisamson on 4 January 2007 at 10:52am (UTC) I am opposed, these votes and ballots are starting to go into ridiculousness.


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Polls need to be limited to a minimum.


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And how can 'binding' decisions be made on behalf of future users, especially when there are no penalties for violating them.


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The results of the vote hang creativity.


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They will be invoked forever after that.


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Especially since there is always a majority of “old” admins though (in admins) and in contradiction situations they can issue banners citing historical votes.


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Renewal is vital in a changing internet community and such votes do not contribute to it.


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Summasummarum; only votes that dismantle and dilute bureaucracy are good.


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Saku 4 January 2007 at 11:46am (UTC) I oppose.


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As adult human beings, we are able to decide things on the basis of fairness without overly strict rules.


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Casuistics is not the way to approach the world.


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—M. Porcius Cato 4 January 2007 at 12:03 AM (UTC) I object.


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No creation of bureaucracy for the sake of bureaucracy.


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First you'd have to come up with a real problem, then try some way other than voting and only in the last state voting.


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Now the first two of this three-step process have not yet taken place.


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-Samulili 4 January 2007 at 16:11 (UTC) I am against I do not see anything wrong in the current practice.


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I think a Wikipedia user knows how to look in the edit history what the voter himself is like.


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—Justware 4 January 2007 at 4:12pm (UTC) I object.


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The current policy works well and there is no reason to leave changing it.


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The fact that Auru Aro is constantly trolling about the issue from multiple different IP addresses is no reason to change the policy.


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—kompak 4 January 2007 at 19:36 (UTC) I support.


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Mild endorsement, no explanations this time.


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—Wipu on January 4, 2007 at 20:57 (UTC) I support.


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(Could have made this vote/opinion mapping page clearer: separate support and opposition sections... and an opinion expression limit!)


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—Kohko 4 January 2007 at 22:38 (UTC) I do not support, the bureaucratic fixed limit only leads to loopholes and voting is stupid.


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—Mikko Paananen on 4 January 2007 at 22:51 (UTC) Abstains completely ridiculous and over-bureaucratic vote whether to take place. —Tigru on 5 January 2007 at 07:51 (UTC) I object.


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Current practice works good enough.


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Besides, maybe too much is decided here anyway by purely voting.


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—Olli 5 January 2007 at 11:36am (UTC) correct username:5 January 2007 at 11:36 a.m. Orri - Added: —Ulrika 6 January 2007 at 1:20pm (UTC) I support.


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Kekkone 6 January 2007 at 16:32 (UTC) I oppose.


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Instead, a debate is needed about whether Wikipedia needs exact limits on voting rights.


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—PeeKoo January 8, 2007 at 15:38 (UTC) I object.


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As AM would surely say, we Finns have a wonderful need to lean on written articles.


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I wonder if we're all grown up enough that we can quite easily spot the difference between a bona fide wearer and a sock-puppeting joker.


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As I recall, the point here was to do encyclopedic knowledge and not dabble in empirical research on the workings of online democracy.


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—Lendu on January 8, 2007 at 23:17 (UTC) I object.


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I agree with Lendu completely.


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—Faldion (Speak!)


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January 9, 2007 at 12:52 (UTC) I object.


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A lot of good arguments have already been made here.


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Polls should be tried to avoid whenever possible.


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However, if you have to vote on something, then it is opinion polling among the active editors of the encyclopedia.


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Whoever such an active modifier is, again, there is no need to go into a millintricate definition.


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Yes everyone usually has the amount of common sense that they can, in most cases, distinguish a genuine user from a sock puppet or just for voting from the tokens that rotate here.


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—Litami on 9 January 2007 at 23:14 (UTC) Comments submitted after the actual voting time (see:


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debate on voting time below) —PeeKoo 15 January 2007 at 18:47 (UTC) I oppose and adamantly.


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—ilaiho (choose) 11 January 2007 at 17:06 (UTC) I support.


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There should be some clear line.


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—Velma 12 January 2007 at 07:17 (UTC) I am against everything.


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This is not how policies are created.


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—Jaakonam 12 January 2007 at 08:26 (UTC) I am against Tuohirulla on 13 January 2007 at 15:08 (UTC) Vote The majority was in favour of triggering a vote on this issue.


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—Green Bonsai 4 January 2007 at 08:46 (UTC) That, based on the daily mapping eh?


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Personally, I haven't participated and/or decided whether to object or not because I haven't had time in a few wakefulness hours to decide on the subject... At least a week that will have time for everyone willing to express their opinion.


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—Agony (403) 4 January 2007 at 08:52 (UTC) Well, I am against getting to a 50/50 situation.


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—Agony (403) January 4, 2007 at 08:54 (UTC) There is no reason to rush.


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Held 7 days from 11 January 2007 until 08:46.


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I suggest Green Bonsai put some sign on the front page that there is a recusal legal debate about redefining voting rights so that no one feels that the decision was made with cunning and injustice in secrecy and speed.


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81.175.156.161 4 January 2007 at 09:00 (UTC) Consensus can be found surprisingly quickly today, at best based on up to an hour of debate.


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Something bordering on that chuckle, thank you!


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—Tve4 4 January 2007 at 09:01 UTC, of course, we can wait another week.


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I myself will go on holiday in the next few days and I would have liked to see a vote on this issue before then.


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In my opinion, a vote would be the quickest way, because if we are to discuss the issue now, the debate can be drained for months and still not necessarily result.


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With a vote, the issue would have been decided in two weeks and the outcome would at least emerge.


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—Green Bonsai 4 January 2007 at 09:04 (UTC) Quick decisions are usually bad, which have been stoned in shoes for years.


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Maturation improves quality.


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81.175.156.161 4 January 2007 at 09:06 (UTC) Well, let this then mature in peace.


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I reported the debate/vote on the issue right now in the voting pattern and marked 11 January as the closing date.


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That's probably good enough for everyone?


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—Green Bonsai 4 January 2007 at 09:12 (UTC) I'm fine because it's a little busy, and soon I'll be taking a break for a couple of weeks.


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I want to get acquainted with the issue to some extent, or I am not voting, therefore I would not have had time to express my position here either.


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Even a week can sometimes seem short, on the articles side a short voting period is of course necessary.


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—Wipu on January 4, 2007 at 09:26 (UTC) Hello!


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After all, this isn't a vote, it's an opinion poll.


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I suppose the point is to map out whether consensus arises on the need for a precise definition of the rules.


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At the moment it seems that consensus, at least in that direction, is not emerging.


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—Marimba 4 January 2007 at 5:26pm (UTC) Debate time Of course, you can make a presentation without discussion, but it would be correct to indicate the time at which time to take a stand.


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It could be that not everyone is present, that is, about 7 days would be an appropriate time to see what kind of opinion there will be.


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When you do a presentation, you could define because the conversation about the performance begins (after the performance is made) and because the voicing begins.


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It would be good if we first debated and then just started to vote, it does not happen that those who give the first votes influence those whose position is weak by publicising their votes.


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What is relevant now is the basis on which the voting organisers act as the electoral commission and reject votes.


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Therefore, the first vote should be about whether voting restrictions are needed, followed by a second debate about what kind of restrictions are needed.


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My position is that there is no need for restrictions, but since restrictions have already been published in indicative form without accepting them, the restrictions should be unambiguous, so that the voter would know what is required of him to obtain the right to vote.


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If the limit is three edits per day, 90 edits per month or 360 edits per year, Wikipedia will have mandatory users among voters.


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This will increase either article writing or vandal moderation or vandal-editing, but if the quantitative requirements are small, this will not be a problem, at least to the extent of junk moderation or even vandal moderation by maintenance candidates, or editing controversy.


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81.175.156.161 4 January 2007 at 08:57 (UTC) Who gets to vote?


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As a rule, all registered users of Wikipedia can vote in the polls.


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However, there are some general exceptions to this: If the vote is for any particular person, that person himself cannot vote on the ballot.


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obstruction 81.175.156.161 at 09:24 (UTC) On 4 January 2007, votes that do not represent the opinion of actual Wikipedia users may be rejected in the audio count.


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This means that, for example: The votes of someone who creates new usernames to manipulate voting.


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it is sufficient to specify that a person has one vote regardless of the number of usernames 81.175.156.161 at 09:24 (UTC) On 4 January 2007, the votes of usernames that were apparently created for voting will be rejected.


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there should be evidence for legal protection 81.175.156.161 at 09:24 (UTC) On 4 January 2007, the votes of usernames with almost non-existent editing histories will be rejected.


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this rule is arbitrary and provides an opportunity for the voting administrator to falsify the result 81.175.156.161 at 09:24 (UTC) On 4 January 2007, the votes of usernames whose editing history consists mostly of edits related to the person or article being voted on disqualified.


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this rule is arbitrary and provides an opportunity for the voting administrator to falsify the result 81.175.156.161 at 09:24 (UTC) On January 4, 2007, the votes of usernames created after the start of voting will be rejected.


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This rule is not true, since an additional four days limit has been imposed on 81.175.156.161 at 09:24 (UTC) 4 January 2007 The first vote should not concern the need for precise, highly precise, over-the-top, arbitrary, volitional, etc. limits, but the first voting is obviously about whether borders are needed to restrict voting rights.


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When it is first determined that there must be restrictions, you must define what they are.


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There should be no overly detailed motions, because whoever wants securely defined borders will not, of course, vote in favour of precise boundaries because he thinks there will be an increase in arbitrariness, but he could vote in favour of borders knowing that he would be able to participate in defining them .


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81.175.156.161 4 January 2007 at 08:41 (UTC) Classification of MPs as local councillors Previously, there have been voting and abolishing classes in the style of Lent politicians.


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Now one user and one IP have forcibly embarked on Wikipedia for the category Felt Municipal Councillors.


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The conversation they had over there, and then took practical steps by setting up classes according to their plan, starting with the metropolitan area.


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Do we have to have another vote on this now?


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Doesn't that monger-vote cover this too? —Ulrika 3 January 2007 at 20:13 (UTC) A vote that does not mention local councils does not really cover categories of local councils. —AP4k 3 January 2007 at 20:46 (UTC) Noihinhan will not be able to enter properly content except for major cities if current removal policies remain in force —Ras 3 January 2007 at 20:27 (UTC) And for major cities, they are coming no matter how much and breakdown is meaningful.


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Not necessarily for smaller municipalities, but I'm not against them either. —AP4k 3 January 2007 at 20:46 (UTC) Yep, the two extremist inclusions agreed with each other a practice that it is reasonable to make authorised classes.


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It's trash like that.


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—ML 3 January 2007 at 20:37 (UTC) If that proceeded all the way to all rural towns, then more than one hundred would have to be made (and even in HKI class there are not many articles).


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—Ras January 3, 2007 at 8:40pm (UTC) Hah, hold a debate on the issue and vote if you don't FUCKING PLEASE.


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Neither do you extremist deletists have taken very much part in the discussion. —AP4k on January 3, 2007 at 8:46pm (UTC) I definitely agree with ML.


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Suffice it to say in the municipality that the following MPs have been elected from the municipality and perhaps add that some are even councillors.


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There are no classes required, and who will sustain all municipalities crave councillors?


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That is, I support removal right away as garbage.


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By the way, good ap4k, if we are gay, then not very v-pleasing;) —Alexius Manfelt on January 3, 2007 at 20:49 (UTC) Well then mark yourself Alexius Manfelt in the right category.


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It is not right that your user page cannot, for some administrative reason, be marked in all the groups where it belongs.


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81.175.156.161 January 3, 2007 at 20:53 (UTC) What are you talking about, my user page looks just like me, you can put complaints on its discussion board if you don't like something there.


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—Alexius Manfelt 3 January 2007 at 21:07 (UTC) I would not refer either by sum or by Wikipedia's research method to classify you in all the minorities you may belong to.


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I'm just referring this to your previous comment.


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81.175.156.161 3 January 2007 at 21:34 (UTC) The category of local councillors does not, of course, mean that all of them.


Question: What things are considered when assessing the possibility of moons to sustain life?

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councillors would be significant any more than the class politicians means that all politicians would be.


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It's a way of organizing information into an easily searchable format.


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The hundreds of city councillors in Helsinki, from whom an article will still sometimes be obtained here, are a great example of a very limited and useful class. —AP4k on January 3, 2007 at 20:59 (UTC) It is not understood that 1) Wikipedia has LESS SPACE than on paper, because screen scrolling is half of A4.


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Since there is less space, keep one paper article written as two Wikipedia articles.


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This entity, on the other hand, does not stand together or readable unless linked in the first place in such a way that classes are created and when they are established, navigation models are created.


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Preventing classification is an old Lutheran tradition here.


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The strongest thing is the opposition to topical articles, although it is precisely topicality that is the most significant advantage in electronic communication.


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In the age series, it is thought that read like a Finnish magazine, at peace and once a week and no references are needed, ksoka everything relevant is on the same covers.


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There is no staple and no bookback on the Internet, but that needs to be replaced with an effective referral system.


Question: What things are considered when assessing the possibility of moons to sustain life?

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Opponents of interactivity labelled the parsing of the article in the spirit of Wikipedia as inclustionism.


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I wonder what that really means too.


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People create some sort of tribal culture and identity here, which they are then hooked with than with some neo-religion or intoxication.


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81.175.156.161 3 January 2007 at 21:19 (UTC) Voting has commenced.


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You can say what you think. —Ulrika 3 January 2007 at 21:23 (UTC) Ulrika practice Ulrika uses questionable procedure.


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He has removed all the MPs in the Helsinki constituency from the class, where they have been perfectly for 24 hours and only then marked one class as rubbish, apparently to show that there is nothing like Eva Biaudet.


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Would it be more honest to have a discussion about classes and the significance of articles rather than resolutely and categorically oppose parsing Wikipedia as interactive?


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One should now understand that the significance of an article is not defined by class, but rather the significance of the article is defined by the content of the article.


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As long as intuitive absoluteness prevails, one cannot discuss things constructively on a matter basis because others have such a strong belief about being right.


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81.175.156.161 3 January 2007 at 20:52 (UTC) I rarely agree with you when you say: “It should now be understood that the significance of an article is not defined by a class, but the significance of the article is defined by the content of the article.


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As long as intuitive absoluteness prevails, one cannot discuss things constructively on a matter basis because others have such a strong belief about being right.”


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I mean, I don't understand why you're driving some stupid classification like a ride to stay.


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And it is the content that is crucial, not any classes, etc. I'll sign that right now.


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—Alexius Manfelt 3 January 2007 at 20:56 (UTC) Since we agree, of course there is no need to prune too many categories, because this is the problem of definition.


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If you want to devote yourself to preventing harmful articles by considering the significance of each of the 416 municipalities separately, what you do not know than perhaps for Janakkala or a few other municipalities you live in, I would suggest starting your own project.


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One female figure already took an enthusiastic move, citing that the category:Helsinki City Councillors belongs to the same category as the category:Ledger politicians.


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I don't think this is the case, but I am waiting for Ulrika's arguments as to why, as a class, Lietan politicians are the same thing as the city councillors of Helsinki.


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This is where it would be in line with the tradition of the Finnish Wikipedia to remind the carer with suspicion of vandalism to his user page and wait for the assistance of the highest powers, mainly from Turku and Stockholm.


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Of course, it would be an ideal if there could be a debate, but the interim decision for this evening is that it has been taken to clear the classes that have already been in peace for 24 hours and appealed to mongering politicians.


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Of course, when the admin nominations are also refurbished in this way, it is clear what kind of editorial board will stabilise the publication, because new ideas must not live even to the level of discussion.


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81.175.156.161 3 January 2007 at 21:13 (UTC) Voting has begun, please take a position.


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—Ulrika 3 January 2007 at 21:19 (UTC) Where to stand?


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81.175.156.161 At 21:35pm (UTC) on 3 January 2007, Ulrika decided to set a precedent for Kite's current municipal councillors.


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You could have followed a bit of composure in doing those classes, too.


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Although the Helsinki, Turun, Tampere City Council could have created and watched the reactions first and shared them only when the material begins to be present in them properly.


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We will now then set the precedent of not having a class of the existing councillors in a municipality with about 10,000 inhabitants. —AP4k on January 4, 2007 at 2:35pm (UTC) Come on.


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It applies to everything, in the same way precedent as the Flesh politicians.


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You did read my removal proposal and there says, “Will classes be removed in the style of (Current) Kitee City Councillors?”


Question: What things are considered when assessing the possibility of moons to sustain life?

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It is remarkable that the word “current” is an alternative.


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I mean, both former and present, everything, and there is still the word “style” in front of us.


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If you continue to misrepresent in the same way, people's aversion to politician articles might even increase.


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Instead, a rational admission of facts brings more understanding to your points too.


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—Ulrika 4 January 2007 at 14:53 (UTC) Your removal vote applies only to categories of existing councillors in a city the size of Kitee.


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You should have learned how to vote all classes at the same time before you start crying about it.


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On the other hand, this topic really should be discussed and not adhere to your annoying all-about-the-right-to-borrow line.


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Even if, for whatever reason, your vote also applies to Kitee City Councillors, it cannot in any case apply to Kitee City Council.


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If you perpetuate your misrepresentations, people might actually start getting annoyed by your actions on wikipedia. —AP4k on January 4, 2007 at 3:48pm (UTC) Which people?


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You and the one hiding behind IP?


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—Ulrika 4 January 2007 at 15:52 (UTC) Heh, like this is your first conflict with other users:O —AP4k 4 January 2007 at 15:57 (UTC) What's wrong with this?


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My first delete vote motion, and a mecca like this.


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The vote is 32-3 at the moment, so I can't be quite wrong.


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Now try to calm down, have a factual conversation and accept the facts.


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No politics should be taken personally.


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—Ulrika 4 January 2007 at 16:07 (UTC) Yes, exporting to the vote was the right solution.


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Someone else might have slobbed straight into rubbish.


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—Tve4 4 January 2007 at 16:10 (UTC) I must acknowledge that it was tried, myself and some others, first through a garbage model based on the result of the LIETO vote but went into a return war, so the only way to get a solution was to ask what others thought.


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—Ulrika 4 January 2007 at 16:16 (UTC) Was this category the only possible voting destination? —AP4k 4 January 2007 at 4:22 p.m. (UTC) For example, a leading and motivating deletion vote commentary, where you mentioned the debate on the issue as if a plan to destroy wikipedia is liable to deprive credibility from your activities.


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I guess you didn't participate in the discussion on the issue either before you started deleting classes.


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When you get a buzz about your actions, accuse your opponents of being vandals or children, declaring that you're tired of reading other people's comments, refusing to discuss, etc.


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With this kind of activity, you will certainly create meccas in the future. —AP4k 4 January 2007 at 16:22 (UTC) All of that is certainly true when you say so.


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I'm not going to defend myself.


Question: What things are considered when assessing the possibility of moons to sustain life?

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But let's get this class thing right now and not consider further what mistakes I (or you, or IP) have made in the conversation.


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Okay?


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Politics is a heavy sport, much heavier than cross-country running, especially mentally.


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—Ulrika 4 January 2007 at 16:39 (UTC) I would like to see the debate continued here.


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Sure, let me know what you think of my suggestions. —AP4k 4 January 2007 at 16:53 (UTC) In the time of Ronald Reagan, there was talk of a moral majority, referring to the supposed silences of the earth who were, down to the throat, full of all sorts of supremacists.


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In the Finnish language there is the concept of the country quiet, which means a peaceful majority who do not like melskaters or blenders.


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81.175.138.138 4 January 2007 at 15:55 (UTC) I wrote my suggestions for classifying Finnish politicians on the discussion page.


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I think it would be good to continue the debate there and not simultaneously in four places. —AP4k 4 January 2007 at 3:48pm (UTC) Concentrating the debate ends the debate very short.


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81.175.138.138 4 January 2007 at 15:55 (UTC) Do you think the decentralised debate has been of some use?


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I think no. —AP4k January 4, 2007 at 15:57 (UTC) When the hierarchy is being dismantled into an egalitarian network, communication is expanded from under censorship into a network, thus requiring the hierarchy to expand control structures or cease its destructive activities.


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81.175.156.161 8 January 2007 at 12:59 (UTC) The decentralisation of the debate is one of the ways to achieve dispersal, because no one knows where what is being talked about and what has been decided (one and the other).


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Conversations will therefore take place in one place, so that it is easy to follow even afterwards.


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—Tve4 4 January 2007 at 15:58 (UTC) By extending the debate to all the contact points where it belongs, it is possible to activate even wider groups of interested civil discourse who would not meet in one place.


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Consequently, public opinion can be formed in support of reforms.


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81.175.156.161 8 January 2007 at 13:01 (UTC) And silly fool.


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I, for one, will not be able to follow a discussion in dozens of different places.


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From any Wikipedia discussion place, you can get to any other Wikipedia discussion place with a few mouse clicks.


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It's not a problem.


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—ilaiho (choose) 13 January 2007 at 05:50 (UTC) tumppi varonen article format I have received permission from Tumppi Varonen to use their contribution as text in Varonen's article.


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Please give me some tips on how to get an article that fits the wiki from that material.


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—Musamies 5 January 2007 at 04:49 (UTC) Looks like it's worth rewriting completely.


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—Zxc 5 January 2007 at 04:51 (UTC) As usual, you use that story as source material and write an article.


Question: What things are considered when assessing the possibility of moons to sustain life?

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You leave out the slaps and try to extract factual information from it.


Question: What things are considered when assessing the possibility of moons to sustain life?

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Pay special care to the language so that the colloquial property of the source text does not stick.


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—Ulrika 5 January 2007 at 06:06 (UTC) Medical naming policy Has anything decided on the naming convention of medical articles in the Finnish wiki?


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In Enkkuwiki, there is a guideline to use a scientific term to which a redirection is made (e.g., the title of the article is “myocardial infarction”, and a redirect from the page “heart attack”).


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Where appropriate, the WHO ICD-10 disease classification (which exists in Finnish) is used as sources.


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This practice sounds reasonable to me.


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The question arose from when I tipped meningomyeloseele on the discussion page about the correct designation of the disease (-seele vai -cele, according to ICD-10 -seele).


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Some sort of guideline would probably be good to exist.


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In my glow on January 5, 2007 at 5:49 p.m. (UTC) I don't think there's any agreement on medicine other than what the style guide says.


Question: What things are considered when assessing the possibility of moons to sustain life?

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So you have to scroll through vocabulary sources.


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I did not find the disease in question in Duodecim's vocabulary nor in the Language Office dictionary, but the YSA uses the form meningomyeloseele.


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It is therefore a name in accordance with the naming convention and, based on the discussion page of the article, quite common.


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Perhaps that ICD-10 could be added to the nomenclature source page, whose position is somewhat ambiguous though.


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—Tsemii 5 January 2007 at 22:14 (UTC) Need to leave who the title serves.


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An ordinary user does not know medical appointments.


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You can redirect them if you want, but the title must be in Finnish.


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Isn't there a principle of Finnish language in Wikpedia?


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—Ulrika on 6 January 2007 at 09:01 (UTC) P.S.


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You could move this article to the archive. —Ulrika 6 January 2007 at 09:01 (UTC) The starting point is to follow the Naming Convention.


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Finnish is therefore not a rule if the other language designation is more used in the Finnish context.


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—Tevete 6 January 2007 at 11:47am (UTC) Of course the name must be Finnish and not medical jargon (e.g. otitis and otitis), but sometimes there is a vernacular name and a more scientific name, both Finnish - which one is used?


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As said, the English wiki has ended up using a more scientific name because vernacular names can sometimes be inaccurate.


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Examples could include heart attack vs.


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myocardial infarction, stroke vs.


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cerebral infarction (cerebral infarction does not always lead to paralysis...).


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In some cases, the use of the scientific name is probably obvious, e.g. diabetes and not diabetes mellitus, epilepsy and crash disease.


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Then there are these ambiguous cases - hepatitis or liver inflammation?


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So what do you think, could ICD-10 be added to the nomenclature sources?


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The English version can be found and in Finnish (I guess the latter needs permissions).


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The ICD-10 classification is used in official sources, e.g.


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death certificates, hospitals final statement, medical certificates, etc so it is yes a generally accepted disease classification.


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And the Finnish translation is well done, there are no foreign misfits there.


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In my glow on 6 January 2007 at 17:15 (UTC) My support was unspecified, I did not mean, of course, the folksy designations of the disease.


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But if the alternative is a scientific name and a relevant name used in common parlance, then of course that common language option.


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Otitis media and otitis media.


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At least the version of ICD-10 that my machine happens to have would require a check otherwise: first otitis media, a little later inflammation<b data-parsoid='{"dsr":[119196,119203,3,3]}'>of</b>the middle ear.


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—Ulrika 6 January 2007 at 17:29 (UTC) Article just a list?


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Does this kind of Tarja Filatov make any sense anymore?


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Is it an encyclopedia article?


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And what should I do?


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—Ulrika 5 January 2007 at 8:04pm (UTC) You mean those three models?


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No point, there are way too many templates on the fi wiki.


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It would make it easier if you even put templates on hold by default.


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Another example is the article Portugal, which could remove at least the models of the Member States of the Community of Portuguese-speaking countries and the euro area and put others (with the exception of the European States model, possibly) by default.


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—Anchjo (chatter) 5 January 2007 at 20:09 (UTC) If you want my opinion, then such a model number doesn't make sense.


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But if you make a layman where all the other models are placed and then that rich coffin of models would be revealed.


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It's insane!


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One at most and that should go into hiding too.


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—Alexius Manfelt on 5 January 2007 at 20:12 (UTC) Creating models has become an end in itself.


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For as if demonstrating technical competence.


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The only reason for creating a template may be that the template is being updated or that it is likely to be updated.


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Much of the navigation fields concern 6-10 articles for which articles have reached their near-final form.


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Therefore, there is no need for less than a dozen navigation fields to be upgraded to built-up in the future.


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When navigation fields are modeled, they become a garbage-like lot problem for the template directory, which would require categorizing and organizing because of their quantity.


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The practice has taken on a life of its own.


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The problem is that not everyone knows how to draw up even a model drop-down navigation field and almost no one will help them with this.


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81.175.154.156 11 January 2007 at 18:37 (UTC) If the models want to catch up, nothing more than bolt (uterus logical) to the template.


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If you want in the article all templates on the basis of hiding, nothing more than in the article.


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Ulrika already made a request on my talk page to start hiding models, but my time has not yet been enough for the chore.


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—Agony (403) 5 January 2007 at 20:22 (UTC) I thought it was a good idea to bring it to a wider forum, especially since the work is unreasonable and I wasn't sure if you were willing to sacrifice.


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—Ulrika on 5 January 2007 at 20:30 (UTC) The model “District associations of parliamentary parties in Häme constituency” can be removed because Filatov is not a district organization.


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The SDP ministerial group model seems like a pretty bad idea.


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You could express a constituency by class.


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The SDP's parliamentary group model could be put to open... I wonder, however, whether it makes sense to put a politician elected from a particular constituency in the category Häme constituency itself.


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Häme constituency MPs might be better, but I think the current category:MPs is good as it is today, without it being allocated.


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That's where you could make a lower class of MPs by constituency? —AP4k January 5, 2007 at 8:23pm (UTC) Given your general political inexperience, I suggest you refrain from further suggestions.


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Ulrika's goal is hardly to increase interactivity, but to eliminate modeling.


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Thus, once again, you destroy content and make Wikipedia as poor as it was before classes and navigation models.


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Unless it has become clear then the party district organisations will field MP candidates, so voting for members or any other method of selection is the first round of parliamentary elections in practice.


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Thus, this should be integrated somehow into the constituency (which were considered pointless articles) or - unless space is enough - then the party's district organisations (which was considered even futile during the Häme Coalition vote.


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Considering that, for example, the Finnish Politics article came to nothing even as a collaborative article, it is very risky to propose to specify constituency categories, because in the end the result is that the largest constituencies in the south are the categories, whereas the eastern ones and the more northern ones constituencies don't deserve peer rating because they are irrelevant.


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81.175.156.161 January 7, 2007 at 22:57 (UTC) As already said above, that is to enable the Show/Hide feature, in addition to the red color off, so is already much better.


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I wouldn't go out and delete the models yet.


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—Wipu 5 January 2007 at 20:26 (UTC) There is something very comical about this low-key cataloging and rating.


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Seems completely self-intentioned: lists for the sake of lists.


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Who needs them?


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Factor?


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—Ulrika 5 January 2007 at 20:28 (UTC) I look forward to the moment when you put all the templates and categories on the delete ballot.


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From this discussion too, however, you've (perhaps) noticed that others' attitudes towards these aren't as negative.


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I'm not advocating overclassification myself.


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For you, even the conversation about classes seems to be painful. —AP4k 5 January 2007 at 20:40 (UTC) I guess the purpose of templates is to facilitate navigation.


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If you want to examine MPs in Häme constituency, a list is suitable for this purpose.


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In that article, the reader could expect to follow the link that might be added to the article, Häme constituency, if the reader wanted to find district MPs.


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Sometimes such lists can be in place, but at present, the large number of models makes it difficult, at least for me, to perceive an article when attention is focused only on the lists.


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— OM 5 January 2007 at 20:45 (UTC) As a small note.


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The Häme constituency article has already listed all the constituency's MPs.


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Well then why do we still need a template of constituency MPs in the ass of the article.


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It's completely pointless and unnecessary.


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If an individual MP is mentioned as MP for the Häme constituency, then by going to that page he or she can view the previous collegegoers.


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I mean why are those stupid templates needed???


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—Alexius Manfelt 5 January 2007 at 21:27 (UTC) Well first of all you take a president or a longtime prime minister or a person who is both an athlete and an MP and look at the appropriate length for the article.


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Then you start typing the text to the extent (preferably relevant rather than trivia) that the article starts to look like something.


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Filatov has some commentary on working groups and small improvements with which to fill the article.


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To help you complete the article, you can use e.g.


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these sources (source criticism: publication close to the Coalition) If you need any other help, please contact us!


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Good luck with your writing!


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81.175.156.161 January 7, 2007 at 22:51 (UTC) And in fact there are four catalog models in Filatov.


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One had just fallen short of his stub model. —Ulrika 5 January 2007 at 20:16 (UTC) Templates are usually at the end of the page, so they usually do not interfere with the article itself, unless the template is rubbed by the article or more than the text itself.


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—Alphaios 5 January 2007 at 20:27 (UTC) The problem can be easily fixed by making templates hide/show, then they won't take up space.


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The second and recommended option is to expand the article.


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—Zxc 5 January 2007 at 8:32pm (UTC) Don't people have anything but to make some of the most insane catalogues or just these models?


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I think you can delete lists and templates.


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Who does Tarja's text indicate that he is an MP and a minister?


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It's enough to say so in the text.


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Let us not act foolishly and let us not be foolish!


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—Alexius Manfelt on 5 January 2007 at 20:35 (UTC) Well no, because classes are not allowed to be established.


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Now we're already voting down the modeling roads too.


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The upshot is that it is necessary to make nagivation fields without modeling.


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81.175.156.161 7 January 2007 at 23:00 (UTC) With the expertise brought by the completion of one of the basic usability courses, this unlockable dimmel warns against even the most basic rules of usability by hiding information behind a non-standard interface.


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Would your grandmother know how to open it with a template of that “show” text that looks like a hyperlink.


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Again, the models have been crammed with pointless and extra information that only complicates things.


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In a model called “Ministers of the Social Democratic Party of Finland's Ministerial Group in Vanhanen's government” (who does that go more than one line?)


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Do not need or mention that Filatov has been “Minister of Labour (2003-), earlier (2000-2003)”.


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Knowledge is supposed to be written in articles and templates left for navigation.


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Ministers are known enough to have a surname, and if you don't remember what sector it is, you can check that link. —Mikko Paananen on 5 January 2007 at 21:30 (UTC) Hmmm, why have SDP ministers alone been put in the model and not all ministers in Vanhanen's government?


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—Mikko Paananen on 5 January 2007 at 21:35 (UTC) If all ministers had been put in, Ulrika would have removed the model, perhaps because they are not social democrats.


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Your model is worth “driving in” by putting a social democrat in the first place and projecting your model in.


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If any of your models exploits non-social democrats, it will be removed as irrelevant.


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Can someone who knows the templates turn them into an open-up model and put some sense into them, there must be something on the viper page, and not templates.


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—Musamies 6 January 2007 at 06:44 (UTC) I got “MPs from the Finnish Social Democratic Party”, but because of my lack of skills, “Häme constituency MPs” was not successful, the font was a little bigger, I have to learn the matter sometimes.


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I wonder if it's better now.


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—Wipu January 6, 2007 at 5:02 p.m. (UTC) Good thing.


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Calmed at least Filatov's article.


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—Ulrika 6 January 2007 at 17:07 (UTC) Does it look better now, I changed those two to open.


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—Musamies 6 January 2007 at 17:30 (UTC) Always getting better, there is no need for Filatovin to be ashamed of the article.


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—Ulrika 6 January 2007 at 17:37 (UTC) Who other Social Democratic MPs have complained about their miserable presentation on Wikipedia?


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81.175.156.161 7 January 2007 at 22:58 (UTC) No MP here has complained.


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Rather than perpetuating that boring partisan political rag of yours, you might be able to take note that for the majority of us Wikipedia users, however, an “encyclopedia article” means an actual, mostly textual, relevant article, rather than just a vague mound of templates of everything in the world.


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—Litami 9 January 2007 at 22:50 (UTC) Not one future MP has already made a request for a preliminary examination during the half of last year that information about private life had apparently been disclosed and that honours had apparently been given.


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I don't think, Litami, that it's worth disagreeing with U for long or be allowed to pay American damages unless you've obtained legal protection insurance, which takes years of processes in court cases.


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If one is dissatisfied with himself and the page about his life, for example, it can be improved as Jari Vilén's page was improved - something that the tabloids living in loose numbers also made public.


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There are quite a lot of people present here mala fide sense.


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Actually, I wonder who the socket puppet choleric female protagonist really is.


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81.175.154.156 13 January 2007 at 02:46 (UTC) I agree with Paananen on the models and year figures.


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When listing current representatives/ministers, the annual numbers just mess up and degrade usability.


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I removed the annual numbers from all models that had them (so in that case of Filatov).


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—JTS on January 8, 2007 at 11:14 AM (UTC) So you have cleared researched information to the delight of aesthetes and essayists.


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Now then you can't see directly whether it is a first-term MP, an MP who has been out of parliament between, or an MP who has announced that will not run for election.


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This whole information should now be put in quantity form in each MP's article separately, so tabulation is increasing.


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To compensate for the damage, you could come up with an MP model, where that information would be readily available at the top right.


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81.175.156.161 8 January 2007 at 12:57 (UTC) As has been said, the role of the model is not to tell how long the persons in question have been in office, but to tell them who are now in these posts (a given it could tell what information about the person, write even if that person is. a person's military rank to that trailing, but further even that would detract from the clarity of the model, and thats usability).


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If anyone is interested in how long Pekkarinen has been a minister, that information can be found behind the link.


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It's not about aesthetics, it's about usability.


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—JTS 8 January 2007 at 14:22 (UTC) Isn't the annual number of appointments indirectly indicating how long a person has been in office?


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Many fact boxes attempt to accurately indicate year numbers and dates in order to make the article serve as a reliable reference book.


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In terms of usability, it is probably appropriate that information is not shared in vain, if there is space, in very many places.


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If it is impossible to present information closely or is not tolerated, of course, the result of saying no look at Google.


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81.175.154.156 11 January 2007 at 22:14 (UTC) Navigation fields, classes and templates basically improve usability.


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It's somehow amazing that they get voted on.


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They are partly each other's options.


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Above was the mention that there were four models in the Tarja Filatov article.


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Modelling small navigation fields that do not periodically update, for example once a year or two or four years, is rather pointless.


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If you take an example of classification and modelling, this is Antti Kalliomäki: category: Current MPs, category: Current ministers of Finland (inconsistency, should be Current Finnish ministers, so that the class is similar to that of the one that led to the ministry in Parliament), category: Finnish ministers, category:Finnish pole-jumpers (may therefore have represented foreign countries, even if there is a former Finnish), category: Finnish Olympic medalists, model:Finnish Minister of Finance, model: MP for Uusimaa constituency, model: Vanhanen Government, model: MPs from the Social Democratic Parliamentary Group (fortunately no one has yet figured out that this too should be written by the MPs of the Social Democratic Parliamentary Group as a coherence for social democracy).


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Everyone can wonder if an article about Antti Kalliomäki as an athlete, gymnastics teacher and politician is better without nine classes, modeling or navigation fields.


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An experiment could be put to the vote, for example, which dimensions of Antti Kalliomäki are pointless and at the same time remove him from some of his categories as a result of random voting.


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For example, would Alexius Manfelt have an opinion on which of his groups Antti Kalliomäki would not be entitled to?


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81.175.154.156 January 11, 2007 at 18:50 (UTC) Reliable Source One article was listed as a source for a single issue in a high school textbook.


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Another person deleted the information justifying the deletion that high school textbooks are not Wikipedia sources.


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Wikipedia is not about scientific research, so basic facts can be considered a source to me as well.


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I'm sure they are trustworthy.


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What does the jury say?


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Is there somewhere a defined level of scientificity for Wikipedia sources?


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—Ulrika 6 January 2007 at 2:21pm (UTC) Yes, I think the high school textbook is a very good source.


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I don't see at all how that wouldn't do. —Tevete's January 6, 2007 at 2:23pm (UTC) I think the “high school textbook” comes as a source to identify (book title, author, publisher, and printing year), rather than just mentioning “high school biology book”.


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After that, it will do well.


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—Tappine on 6 January 2007 at 14:28 (UTC) Well, it will be normal to indicate the name, edition, publisher and gladly still the page on which the information can be found. —Tevete 6 January 2007 at 14:30 (UTC) We will have problems with sources if a high school textbook is not valid as a source unless there is a specific reason to doubt the accuracy of the information.


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For example, if a book is particularly old and there is reason to suspect that the data is out of date, or if its information conflicts with a more reliable source, it can be removed from the sources.


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—Anchjo (Jocks) January 6, 2007 at 14:29 (UTC) Without further ado, the high school textbook qualifies as a source.


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—Aslak 6 January 2007 at 14:32 (UTC) The textbook is a problematic source because it is not a non-fiction book, but, if it is not mathematics or mechanistic physics, perceptions of the subject change.


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In addition, in textbooks, the perspective is educational, i.e., the emphases vary in social sciences, for example, depending on which decade the book hurts your hand.


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Textbooks are constantly being renewed to keep the printing presses working, as well as illustration and assignment gimmicks to make the previous edition obsolete.


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The textbook is often not entirely wrong, but textbook emphases “take” Wikipedia's text in its direction unless the author has read on the subject by comparison from other sources, which is typical of non-fiction writing or factual style.


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81.175.154.156 11 January 2007 at 18:53 (UTC) Thank you for all the comments.


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They were unequivocally positive.


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—Ulrika 6 January 2007 at 2:46pm (UTC) I have encountered several times on different pages of Wikipedia that high school textbooks are invalid as a source.


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I think some of the editors of Wikipedia have thesis guidelines, etc., in mind.


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Of course, it's not worth putting a high school textbook among the source literature (it might even lower your grade).


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Might not be put, as a high school textbook should be absolutely basic basic, paralleling things commonly known, right?


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Is the accepted thesis otherwise new research or old research that could basically be used as a source for Wikipedia?


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Kohko on 8 January 2007 at 00:30am A little late, I will take a stand on the matter, because it is from experience that high school textbooks are thoroughly checked for scientific accuracy as well as pedagogical matters.


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So, yes, they have to be a source.


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Says many high school history textbook publisher reviewed;) —Alexius Manfelt on January 6, 2007 at 15:15 (UTC) Thank you for the confirmation.


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Perhaps here, too, the statements of individuals were received that no one is unclear.


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—Ulrika 6 January 2007 at 15:20 (UTC) Has Eva Polttila or Paavo Lipponen already taken a position?


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Who?


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81.175.156.161 On 8 January 2007 at 2:17pm (UTC) The inspection of textbooks was abandoned 1992 Secondary school textbooks are otherwise no longer audited, instead blindly assuming that publishers are responsible for their work.


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Thus, perhaps apart from textbooks in mathematics, physics, and chemistry, textbooks can still contain anything.


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Find out how things are.


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You can also use Google and state that the inspection of textbooks ended 1992 81.175.156.161 at 23:03pm (UTC) on January 7, 2007, I am talking about an internal review by the publisher, not by the school board or the Board of Education.


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The book is therefore written by different persons than those who verify it in content and pedagogical terms.