The place of rhetoric in China is also contested. Like Creel, another well-known sinologist could say “We know of no early oratorical tradition in China” (Crump 1964: 36), and a communications scholar maintains that there was no tradition of rhetoric in China (Murphy 1983: 3). Others allow that there was, but it was not worth much. To them, “Chinese rhetoric is characterized by harmony, deprecation of speech, and lack of interest in logic” (Lu and Frank 1993: 445). Contradicting all of these latter generalizations is a lengthy work entitled Rhetoric in Ancient China, Fifth to Third Century B.C.E. (Lu 1998).