 The line between negative retributivism and retributivism that posits a weak positive reason to punish may seem unimportant. A negative retributivist holds that the justification for punishment must come completely from its instrumental value. A positive retributivist who thinks that the reasons provided by desert are relatively weak may say that most of what justifies punishment comes from the same instrumental bases. For both, a full justification of punishment will be “mixed”, appealing to both retributive and consequentialist ideas (Garvey 2004: 449–451).