 The argument here is that the fourth graders can come to know that p on the basis of Stella’s testimony even though Stella herself does not believe, and thus does not know, that p is true. Thus, TV-N is false, i.e., testimonial knowledge can be generated from a speaker who lacks the knowledge in question. (This Creationist Teacher case comes from Lackey (2008). Other school teacher cases have been discussed in Graham (2006a) and Carter and Nickel (2014). Goldberg (2005) and Pelling (2013) also give cases in which a speaker’s belief is unsafe and does not amount to knowledge even though the hearer’s belief  does).[6]