 There are two distinct succinctly stated arguments here. First, if we can have no experience of substantial forms, we have reason for doubting their existence. Second, if we have no need to posit them to explain the phenomena we do experience, then, again, we have reason to doubt their existence. These arguments are clearly connected, though discrete, in that the second becomes dialectically salient precisely when the first is endorsed. If one grants that we have reason to doubt the existence of substantial forms insofar as we never experience them directly, the question immediately arises as to whether we have some indirect, non-experiential reason for granting them. The proponent of the second argument contends that we do not.