 The argument here is that Eyal’s testimony constitutes an undefeated defeater that defeats Persia’s justification for believing that p. However, since Fred is completely unaware that Persia has the defeater, and because he has positive reasons for thinking that his friend is a reliable testifier, he does come to know that p on the basis of Persia’s say-so. Thus, TV-N is false (This Persistent Believer case comes from Lackey [2008]. It is worth noting that this case purports to show that testimonial justification can also be generated, i.e., Fred can acquire testimonial justification for believing p via Persia’s testimony even though Persia was not justified in believing p herself).