 By discussing li—the boundless and ceaseless activity present during nirvanic experience—rather than emptiness, Dushun forestalls any conflation between li and total voidness. Whatever else it might be, li is far from nothing at all. By discussing li rather than tathata, Dushun affords the possibility of saying something about ultimate reality. Conceptualizing nirvanic experience as encountering suchness presents those experiences as something other than “such,” but conceptualizing nirvanic experience as encountering li does not present activity as something other than activity. Dushun’s first innovation thereby opens the way to developing a metaphysical theory (conceptualization) about reality as encountered during nirvanic experience. 