 The main worry people have with the hard-line approach is that it conflicts too deeply with our intuitions about the relevant class of manipulation cases (Capes, forthcoming). Many people find it highly implausible that someone like Plum could be morally responsible in the basic desert sense for his behavior given how the behavior came about (cf. Fischer 2011, 2014; McKenna 2008, 2014, 2017; Sartorio 2016; Tierney 2013, 2014; Capes 2013; Haji &amp; Cuypers 2006). The main worry with the soft-line approach, on the other hand, is that any difference identified as the relevant one between manipulated agents and ordinary determined agents may be a difference that applies only to current manipulation cases but not future cases. For example, most extant manipulation cases involve external agents who act as intentional manipulators, whereas this is missing in the normal case of natural determinism. Proponents of soft-line replies might therefore be tempted to point to this as the relevant difference. Setting aside for the moment the potential question-begging nature of this move, the reply also suffers from the fact that new manipulation arguments have recently been devised that avoid external agents altogether.