 Later in Republic VI there is a connection—of a different sort—between technê and epistêmê. Knowledge, in the sense of epistêmê, will be deductive and logical like mathematics; unlike mathematics, its deductions will be based on foundations that need no further justification. In part it will be something like mathematical deduction based on fundamental reality. Two aspects of this account are significant. First, using a mathematical model as the root of this conception of knowledge makes it purely theoretical; it is theoretical because, like calculation in the Charmides (165e), it has no separate product. Its ergon seems to be the activity itself of dialectical thought. Second, in using mathematical thinking as an analogue for dialectic, Socrates is still relying on the notion of technê since both geometry and calculation are technai. 