 These defenders of psychologism do not on the face of it disagree with champions of non-psychologism about the ontology of these reasons. For psychological facts are not themselves mental states, though they are facts about mental states. But they still disagree with non-psychologists about what these reasons are. Because of this, we need a way to distinguish between psychologism and non-psychologism other than in terms of ontology—the kind of thing that each camp says reasons are—in order to capture the deeper disagreement between them. Perhaps a better way to do so is to say that psychologism holds that motivating and explanatory reasons are mental states or facts about mental states of agents, whereas non-psychologism says that motivating and explanatory reasons, like normative reasons, are facts about all sorts of things, including mental states of agents.