 Both Briggs and Mahtani extract the condition of incoherence from the features of certain bets.  However, it remains unclear as to how precisely the concept of incoherence, in their sense, is to be understood, although they seem to take it as a form of inconsistency.  Still, the discussion is important for there is some intuition that violating Reflection is less similar to holding inconsistent beliefs than violating the probability axioms. When it comes to Conditionalization, Briggs takes the Dutch Book argument as establishing the full principle that the rule will be followed, which appears too strong, since the consistency required by rationality does not seem to require having a plan for updating nor to strictly require following through on such a plan. Indeed, precisely what sort of inconsistency is involved in cases where one is susceptible to a Dutch Strategy on account of having an alternative updating rule to Conditionalization remains unclear, and is perhaps a point in favor of Mahtani’s analysis upon which the status of Conditionalization remains inconclusive. Against Mahtani, Pust (2021) claims that her reading of logical form is too narrow, and that given a more plausible account of logical form, cases of self-doubt will be subject to Dutch Books that establish incoherence. Moreover, Pust argues that the point applies to Dutch Books against violators of Reflection, so that they too will count as incoherent. If this is right, Mahtani’s new understanding of Dutch Book arguments would fail to distinguish as intended between Dutch Books to undermine the Dutch Strategy argument for Reflection.  The proposals of both Briggs and Mahtani must contend with the subtle connection between credences and bets. Mahtani associates credences with bets that the agent would accept as fair, but as previously noted, having credences need not go along with accepting bets as fair in the way needed to connect the violation of various probabilistic norms with a Dutch Book. While Briggs acknowledges that there is a complex relationship between credences and bets, the notion that credences condone certain bets also appears to be in the spirit of the depragmatized DBAs, which, as observed, suffer from various difficulties.  