 It must be acknowledged, though, that there is attention in Confucian texts to procedural matters and to the norm of “order”, at least partly separate from rulers’ virtue. Some interpreters have argued that this means the Confucians recognized a distinct species of “political” norms, and that such political concerns were more important to the Confucians than the achievement of individual, rarefied ethical states. For example, in his discussion of under what circumstances Mencius judges a rebellion to be justified, Justin Tiwald emphasizes that Mencius “puts a great deal of weight on the essentially procedural requirement that the ruler be properly designated for the task” (Tiwald 2008: 274). Even more explicitly, Loubna El Amine argues at length in her Classical Confucian Political Thought for the importance of a distinct sphere of politics. She says that while “the realm of politics is not completely distinct from the realm of ethics,… political order, not moral edification, is the end”; and furthermore that “political order is an end in itself, not a means toward virtue” (El Amine 2015: 15).