Bernie Sanders Interview | Lex Fridman Podcast #450
- The ideas that I am talking about are ideas that are widely supported. Everything that I talk about
raising the minimum wage, healthcare for all, a tax system, which
demands the billionaires pay their fair share. Those are all popular ideas, but people didn't know, you gotta run for president and have 20,000 people
come out to your rallies and win 23 states. They say, "Hmm, well maybe those are not, ideas are not so crazy after all, and we've gotta entertain 'em." The establishment doesn't like that. They really don't. They want to tell you, and this is their main, this is how they succeed. What they say, Lex is, the world is the way it is. It always will be this way. We got the wealth, we got the power. And don't think of anything else. This is the way it is. You have no power, give up. That they don't say it quite that way. But that's really what the intent is. And what we showed is, guess what, you know, running an outsider campaign, we took on the Democratic establishment, we came close to winning it, and we did win 23 states. And the ideas that we're talking about are the ideas that working class people, young people believe in. - The following is a
conversation with Bernie Sanders, Senator from Vermont and two
time presidential candidate, both times as the underdog who against the long odds
captivated the support and excitement of millions of people both on the left and the right. This is the Lex Friedman podcast. To support it, please
check out our sponsors in the description. And now to your friends, here's Bernie Sanders. Growing up, did you ever
think you'd be a politician? - Nope. Not in a million years. - Yeah, I know that you
hate talking about yourself, which is rare for a
politician, I would say. What's your philosophy behind that? You like talking about the
issues you talking about? - Yeah, I do. I mean, you know, everybody
talks about themselves, it's thought about me. You know, nice guy, not a nice guy. What's the, what you know,
politics should be about is the issues facing the
people of our country, the people of the world, and how we're gonna address it. That's what it should be. - That said, there's a interesting aspects to your life story. For example, in 1963, you were very active in
the civil rights movement, got arrested even for protesting
segregation in Chicago. And you attended the
famous march on Washington where MLK gave his I Have a Dream speech. What was that like? - It was extraordinary. Took a bus ride down with fellow students from the University of Chicago and there was a zillion people there. I'm not sure if it was the first time I'd ever been in Washington in my life, but it was, you know, it was a very impressive moment. And what he was talking about what people very often forget about that, it was not only racial justice, it was jobs, jobs and justice. That was the name of that rally. And so it's something
I've never forgotten. - What influence did he have on you? What what'd you learn about the way he enacted change in the world? - King was a very impressive guy. More impressive I think, than people think that he was. And what he did is he created his movement from the bottom on up. So he developed real organization,
grassroots organization, which put pressure on communities and officials
to end segregation, to open up voting patterns. And I think what has to also
be remembered about King, which is really quite extraordinary, is, you know, he won the Nobel
Peace Prize and there was, oh, you're great, you're wonderful. But then to the end of his life, he took on Lyndon Johnson
on the war in Vietnam. And as soon as he did that, suddenly the editorial pages throughout America establishment papers no longer thought he was so great. In fact, the message sent out, you are black, deal with civil rights, don't worry about foreign policy, we'll take care of that. But he said, you know, if I talk about peace and nonviolence, I can't sit back and allow
what's going on in Vietnam to continue without speaking out. Incredible courage to do that. And by the way, when he was assassinated at a fighting for the
rights of AFSCME workers, garbage, guys that delivered the garbage, who were treated terribly, low wages, bad working conditions, they went out to support
their right to form a union. That's when he got killed. - So on the war front, one of the things that people
don't often talk about, your work in politics, you gave what I think
is a truly brave speech on the Iraq War in 2002, I believe. You voted no on the Iraq resolution, you voted no on the Patriot Act. And you basically
predicted very accurately what would happen if we go into Iraq. What was your thinking
at the time behind the, those speeches? Behind voting no on the Patriot Act, on the Iraq resolution. - It maybe ironically came out of maybe the war in Vietnam and the ease and lies that people told. We went into Vietnam under a lie, we lost close to 60,000 Americans. Millions of people in
the Vietnam, Cambodia died as a result of that. So you think twice about it. And then the war in Iraq, you had, you know, people like Dick Cheney and others telling us, oh they have nuclear
weapons and all that stuff. It's the only way we
can resolve the issue. I didn't believe it, I didn't agree with it. And you're right, turns out
historically I was right. - What's the way to fight this thing that Martin Luther King tried to fight, which is the military industrial complex? - It's huge. I mean, it gets to the broader issue of where we are a nation. And what I, you know, almost uniquely in Congress talk about is the fact that we are moving, Lex, to an oligarchic form of society. And not a lot of people are
familiar with that term, but what it means, you know, we talk about oligarchy in Russia, oh, and Putin is surrounded
by the oligarchs. Well guess what? What do you think is happening
in the United States? So what you have right now is an economy with more
concentration of ownership than we've ever had, right? That means whether it's agriculture, transportation, healthcare,
whatever it may be, fewer and fewer massively
large corporations control what's produced
and the prices we pay. And then you look at our
political system and it's, we don't talk about it, what is the reality of the
political system today? And that is that billionaires are spending huge amounts of
money to buy this election. In Trump's campaign, you got three multi-billionaires
spending over $200 million. Three people. Democrats have their billionaires
not quite as concentrated, but at the end of the day, billionaires play an enormous role in terms of electing politicians, and in Washington in
determining what legislation gets seen and not seen. - But it's not just single billionaires, it's companies with lobbyists. - You got it. Lemme give you one example. Lobbyists. We pay in the United States, by far the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs. This is an issue I've been working hard on with some success. Take a wild and crazy guess how many lobbyists are there from the drug companies
in Washington D.C.? - Well, over a thousand? - Over a thousand, right? There are a hundred members of the Senate, 435 members of the House, 535 members of Congress. There are 1800 well-paid lobbyists representing the drug companies, including former leaders of the Republican and Democratic Party. That is why, one of the reasons why, we pay the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs. Military industrial complex,
you got a revolving door. People go from the military into the General Dynamics, into Lockheed Martin and
the other large companies. And what we see there is an
institution in the Pentagon. We spend a trillion dollars
a year on the Pentagon. It is the only federal agency that cannot, is not able to submit
to an independent audit. So if you think there's
not massive fraud and waste and cost overruns in the Pentagon, you would be sorely mistaken. - Do you think most
politicians are corrupt in accepting the money? Or is the system corrupt? Or is it a bit of both? - If the corrupt means that, hey, here's $10,000 vote this way. Doesn't work like that, very, very rare. Occasionally, very, very rare. That's corruption. What happens is that if
you are in a campaign, and right now the amount of
money that people have to raise, you're running for Senate in Ohio, you're talking about 50, $60 million. Where the hell are you
gonna get that money? It's not gonna be $10 donations. You're gonna be surrounding yourself with people who have the money. You're gonna go $5,000 a
plate dinners, et cetera. So you're surround
yourself with those people who say, oh, these are my problems. This is what I need. This is, I need a tax
break for billionaires, blah, blah, blah, blah. So you become, you live in that world. They are your financial support. They are in a sense, your political base. So you're very cognizant of what you do in terms of not upsetting them. So it's not corruption in the
sense of people, you know, taking envelopes with, you know, huge amounts of money
to vote a certain way that very, very rarely if ever happens, it is the power of big money to make politicians
dependent on those folks. And that's why, you know,
when I ran for president, what I probably maybe most proud of is the fact that we received millions and millions of campaign contributions, averaging 27 bucks a
piece, I think in 2016. - Have companies lobbyists
ever tried to buy you, tried to influence you? - We don't welcome them into our office. I do deal with these guys, but it's usually on a
confrontational tone. No, so they don't come
into my office very often telling me their problems. - So how do we fix the system? How do we get money outta politics? - This is not, you know,
like many other issues, we don't have to reinvent the wheel here. It exists in other countries. If you go to, you know, every country has their
own election system, but nobody has a system where billionaires can spend unlimited sums of money through super PACs to elect
the candidates of their choice. So first thing you gotta do, and it, you know, one of the things Lex, I found that the more important the issue, the less discussion there is, the less important the issue, the more discussion there is. A number of years ago, the United States Supreme Court in one of its more pathetic decisions passed the Citizens United decision. And what Citizens United decision said is, you're a multi-billionaire. You want the freedom, you're a free person in a free country. You want the freedom to buy the government and how terrible it would be to deny you the freedom to spend hundreds
of millions of dollars on a campaign to elect the candidates. And they said, that's
the, that's your freedom. And that's what Citizens United is about. We've gotta end that. And in my view, we move to
public funding of elections. That means you wanna run for governing, you wanna run for senate show that you have some support, get, you know, $5 contributions from X number of people to show you you're not a flake. You have some support
and government will pay a certain amount more and there'll be a limit
in the amount of money that can be spent. So it'll be a real, you can run against me and I'm not gonna outspend you 10 to one. That's what we should be
moving toward in my view. - How do we make that happen when there's so much money in the system and the politicians owe to the people who
paid for their election? Does it have to come from the very top, essentially sort of a really strong popular
populist president? - But you're right, you
raised exactly the question, if I am getting a huge amount
of money from billionaires, do you think I'm gonna
go out and announce, I think billionaires
should not be involved in buying elections. I doubt that very much. So what you're gonna need, and you tell me if I'm missing something, but I pay attention, you don't hear either
of the major candidates talking about that issue, do you? - I think what happens is when an individual politician
speaks out about it, they get punished. But I think this is a popular idea. So if a lot of them speak out, that's why if it came from the top, if a president was using
a very large platform to basically speak out, it provides a safety blanket
for the other politicians to get it all out of the system. But there has to be kind
of a mass movement of it. - Yes, it does. I mean, and every place I go, I always speak about the issue. And it always, people understand it. You're a Republican, you're a
Democrat, you're progressive, you're conservative, who really believes that we are a democracy
when billionaires can spend, you know, tens and tens
of millions of dollars to buy elections. So it is a very popular issue. It's important, you're right. We need political leaders
to be speaking out on that, but we need a grassroots movement to say when somebody is at a town meeting, you're running for the Senate, you're running for the house. What's your view on Citizens United, are you prepared to vote
to overturn that decision and move to public funding of elections? Extraordinarily important. - So many of your policy
proposals are quite radical. - No, they're not. I beg to differ. - Okay, great. - (indistinct) - Well they're popular. So what I mean is relative to what, the way other politicians speak. - Yes. - It's usually a little bit more moderate. So from everything you've
learned from politics, is it better to go sort of radical? Maybe we can come up with a different word versus a more moderate, safe,
ambiguous kind of policies. - Okay, let's, let's talk about it. Fair enough. We talked about one issue, very important, money in politics. - Money, yes. - Getting money out of,
big money outta politics. Do you think that's a radical idea? - Well, I mean, yeah, it's a popular idea. It's a idea that makes sense. But in order to implement it
and actually make it happen requires, I mean to flip the system
upside down, right? In that sense it's radical. - In that sense it's radical. But if you go to, walk down
the street here and you say, do you think billionaires should be able to spend as much money as
they want to buy politicians? I would say nine outta 10
people say, that's crazy. That's not what America's
supposed to be about. So in that sense, it's
certainly not radical. Let's talk about healthcare, right? Go out on the street, do it or do a poll. I've done the polling. Is healthcare a human right? Should every American be
able to go to a doctor when they need, regardless
of their income? You know what people say? I would say about 85, 90% of
the people say, of course. The idea that healthcare is a
human right available to all exists, Lex, in every
major country on Earth, except the United States. So you're here with me in
Burlington, Vermont, right? If you got a car, go 50
miles north to Canada, walk into the Canadian, you know, walk into Canada and ask people, when you go to the hospital, how much does it cost you? What kind of bill? And they say you, what
are you talking about? It doesn't cost us anything. It doesn't cost us a nickel. That's the case in virtually
every country in Europe. So the idea that healthcare
should be available to all, that there should be no
out-of-pocket expense, because it's a human right is widespread around the world and very much agreed to in this country. Bottom line is that because of
our corrupt political system, we have a healthcare system designed not to provide
healthcare to all people, to make huge profits
for the drug companies and the insurance companies. And that is what's happening. And we gotta change that system. So I'm a strong advocate and I've led the effort
on Medicare for all. - Okay, let's talk about Medicare for all. If you could snap your fingers today and implement the best
possible healthcare system for the United States of America, what would that look like? - Well, we have a pretty good system. Not great, but a pretty
good system in Medicare. So it's there for the elderly. And Lyndon Johnson
passed that in the 1960s, a huge step forward. It is being chopped away by
the private insurance companies through Medicare Advantage. But if you strengthen Medicare and you do away with
the kind of deductibles, that seniors now have to pay and you do away with other stuff. And you say basically right
now you're a senior in America, go to any doctor you want. You know, when you're in the hospital, Medicare will pay the entire bill. If you expand Medicare to cover
dental, hearing and vision, which it doesn't now cover. You do all of those things. And then the next thing to do is say, okay, to be eligible for Medicare, now you have to be 65. First year we're gonna lower it to 55, then we'll lower it to 45, then we'll lower it to 35, then we'll have everybody in the system. So I think in a four or five year period you can strengthen Medicare and have everybody in the system. And when you do that, and this is not just me talking, number of studies have pointed this out. When you take the profit motive out of it from the insurance companies
and the drug companies, you can end up providing quality care to all people at no more than
we're spending right now. Because right now we are
spending twice as much per personal healthcare as the
people of any other nation. Incredibly wasteful system. - So the way to pay for the
system is to increase taxes. But you're saying if you cut that cost and increase the taxes,
you're saying it's going to? - Here's the story. I've gotten my share of 32nd
ads attacking me on this. Bernie Sanders wants to raise
your taxes on healthcare. It's true, in a progressive way, but right now do you
have health insurance? - Yes. - Okay, somebody's paying
for your health insurance. It depends, if you are working, most people get their health insurance through their jobs, okay? So if you're working for a large company, your employer is paying
your health insurance and by the way that
comes outta your wages, healthcare costs in America very high. And your employer will tell you, honestly, look, I can't give you more
than a 3% wage increase, 'cause I got a 10% increase
in your healthcare costs. You want that? Or if you're union negotiating, you know what, they'll say, "Hey, you want decent wages, we're gonna have to cut
back on your healthcare." That's what every union has to deal with. You know, every, every
negotiating session. So we're paying for it through
employers out of pocket. We pay through it through
Medicare, Medicaid, veterans Administration, et cetera. What I am proposing is really not radical. It's what exists in Canada
and other countries. It is publicly funded like
the police departments and like libraries are
and like public education, is publicly funded in a progressive way. So right now, rather than
paying out of your own pocket, if you are a family, let's just say you're self-employed
right now and you are, you know, you want, you have
a couple of kids and a wife, it could cost you 15, $20,000
a year in insurance cost. Well that's all eliminated. Will you have to pay more in taxes? OF course you will. Maybe it depends on your income level, but it could be that you'd be
paying $12,000 more in taxes, but not $20,000 more in premiums, co-payments and deductibles. You save money. So it's paying taxes rather than paying money to the insurance company. You got a better deal
through the tax system. - So the most painful
thing in today's system is the surprise bills, the number one cause of bankruptcy and the psychological
pain that comes from that. Just worrying stressed. - Yes. - In debt. - You got it. - And just basically afraid constantly of getting sick because you don't know if insurance is gonna cover it. And if you're not insured, you don't know how much
it's going to cost. So you're not gonna go to the hospital even if there's something wrong with you, if there's pain and all that kind. So you just live in a state of fear, psychological fear, that's the number one problem. It's just not just
financial, psychological. - You got it, look, and I think you said it very well. I, you know, I'm chairman of the committee that deals with this stuff. So I talk to a lot of doctors, and doctors in Vermont
and all over this country tell me that they're astounded. People walk into their offices much sicker than they should have been. And the doctors said, why didn't you come in your
six months ago when you first, you know, felt your symptoms? And they said, well you know, I have a high deductible, I've a $10,000 deductible. I don't have any money to pay. I'm uninsured. Some of those people don't make it. Other people. And this is what is totally crazy, they end up in the hospital at huge expense to the system rather than getting the care they need when they needed it. So that is how, I'll give
you another example of it. We pay the highest prices in the world for prescription drugs. One outta four Americans can't afford the drugs
their doctors prescribe. So you walk into the doctor's office, they say, okay Lex, you got
this, that, and the other thing. Here's a prescription, you can't afford to fill it. What happens? You get sicker, you end up in the emergency room, which is an extremely
expensive proposition, okay? Or you end up in the hospital, you know, rather than dealing with
the problem when it occurs and what is not talked about, you know I mentioned earlier how we don't talk about
some of the major issues. The estimate is that some
60,000 people in America die every single year unnecessarily, because they can't get to a doctor when they need because
the financial reasons. And you wanna hear even crazier, one out of four people
who get cancer treatment in this country either go bankrupt or deplete their financial
resources of their family. So your point is right, you know, if somebody diagnoses you with cancer, you're scared to death, you're worried about
how you're gonna live, you're gonna die, what's gonna happen? And then on top of that, you gotta worry about whether
your family goes bankrupt. How insane and cruel is that? So to me, you know, I think healthcare is what unites us all. Everybody has family, they get sick, we all get born, we all die, we all want care and we all have gotta come together to create a system that
works for all of us, not just the drug companies
or the insurance companies. - There's just so many stories and not even the horrific stories. There's countless horrific stories, but just basic stories of cost. Like my friend, a doctor, Peter Attia, has this story where he
happens to be wealthy so he can afford it, but he had to take his
son to the emergency room and the son was dehydrated and the bill was $6,000. They just did a basic
test and gave him an iv, a basic thing. And he has really good insurance and the insurance covered $4,000 of it. So he had to, at the end pay $2,000 for a basic emergency room visit. And there's a lot of families for whom that one visit for such a simple thing would be just financially devastating. - And you know what, people know that. And you know what they say, you know, some, I don't feel well today. - Yeah.
- Something's wrong. I ain't gonna go to that emergency room, because I don't want a $6,000 bill. And what happens, he had insurance that paid two thirds of it, right? - Yes. - So what happens if he didn't, or what happens if he didn't have money, he'd be hounded by bill collectors
for the rest of his life. So it's a, it is a disgusting system. It is an inhumane system. But you know, the insurance companies and the drug companies are very powerful and they make a lot of
campaign contributions, have a lot of lobbyists
and we are where we are. But you know, I think, you know, the American people want
fundamental changes there. - So that's another good example of a really popular idea
that is not implemented because of the money in politics. - You got it. That's a wonder. And I'll tell you that not only that, not only is it not
implemented because of money, it's not even discussed, alright? So I'm saying here and no one disputes me, we are spending twice as much per person on healthcare, right? And yet 85 million Americans are uninsured or underinsured and our life expectancy is lower than virtually every other
major country on Earth. Do you think that might be an
issue that we'd be discussing? - Again, if a single
politician discusses it to get punished for it? So there needs to be a
mass movement and probably, I mean from my perspective, it has to come from the very top. It has to come from the president. And the president has to
be a populist president where they don't, they
don't care about the parties or the rich people. They just speak out because
they know it's a popular message and they know it's the right thing. So speaking of that, you had a historic campaign
run for president in 2016 and in the eyes of many people, mine included, you were screwed over by the DNC as the, especially the WikiLeaks emails showed. What's your, just looking
back feelings about that? Are you angry? Are you upset? - Yeah, of course I'm angry
and of course I'm upset. But you know, when you take on, in this case the democratic establishment who have controlled their party forever, muddied interest in the Democratic party. You know, when you're
taking on corporate America, when you're taking on the corporate media and when you're calling
for a political revolution that creates the government
that works for all and not just the few, you know, the opposition is going
to be extraordinary. But what I am extremely proud of from that campaign in 2020 as well is that we took on the anointed candidate
of the establishment, and we showed, you know, we showed, despite the fact
the entire establishment, I had in the Senate, I had one supporter, there were 50 Democrats, I had one supporter, I had no governor supporting me I think, maybe a few people in the House. But we took on the whole
political establishment and we did, you know, we got millions of votes and
the ideas that we brought forth were ideas that they had
to eventually deal with in one way or another. And if you look at the
American Rescue plan, which I'm proud to have helped write. During the midst of COVID, a lot of the ideas that we fought for were implemented in that bill. And I wanna make them obviously permanent. - And you almost won. And a lot of people thought that you would win against Donald Trump. - I think we would've, I think we would've, you know, I think Trump
is a very, you know, I think he's a little bit
crazy between you and me, but he is a smart politician and he's appealing to a lot of the anger that working class people feel. And you know what, working
class people should feel angry, but they should make sure
that their anger is directed in the right direction and not against people who are
even worse off than they are. Which is what demagogues
like Trump always do. So you know, I think we had, as I went around the country then and now we have a lot of support
from working class people who understand that
there is something wrong. And this is an incredible
fact that no one talks about. Alright, I'm gonna ask you a question. Are you ready for this, Lex? - Let's go.
- Here we go. Over the last 50 years there's been a massive
increase in worker productivity as a result of technology, right? Everyone agrees with that and it's, I don't know exactly what it's, but the worker today
is producing a lot more than the work of 50 years
ago doing something similar. Is the worker today in real
inflation accounted for dollars making more money than
that worker 50 years ago? - Well, there's a lot of
close arguments there, but your point is well taken. It's either the same
or a little bit higher or a little bit lower
depending on the statistics. It has not increased significantly. And the wealth inequality
has increased significantly. - Exactly, that is the point. So you would think that if a
worker is producing a lot more, that worker would be better off, would be working lesser hours, et cetera. That hasn't been the case. And what has happened in that 50 years is according to the Rand Corporation, there has been a 50 trillion, trillion with a T, redistribution of wealth from
the bottom 90% to the top 1%. So you got CEOs today making 300 times more than their workers. You got three people on
top owning more wealth then the bottom half of American society. So that's why people are angry and they're worried that their kids may have a lower standard
of living than they in the wealthiest country
in the history of the world. So there's a lot of anger out there and I think we tap some of that
anger in a constructive way, essentially saying, you know what? We don't need so few to have
so much in wealth and power. Let's distribute it
more fairly in America. - I gotta get back to 2016, 'cause it's such a historic moment. So there's a lot of fans of yours that wanted you to keep fighting, because you forgave in
the end the establishment and joined them in support. And your fans wanted you to
keep fighting for a takeover, for a progressive takeover
of the Democratic Party. If you just look back and
had to do it all over again, what would you do different? - Well, by the way, in terms of a takeover of the Democratic Party, we did try, we ran, do you
know who Keith Ellison is? Keith is now the Attorney General
of the state of Minnesota. He's doing a great job. Really one of the outstanding attorneys journals in the country. And Keith was then a member of Congress and we ran Keith to
become the head of the DNC and the establishment, for the president of the United
States on down when crazy. And they beat him by a few votes, not a whole lot. So it's, look you, you're faced and you know, that's the exact same
position that many of us are in right today. So people say, well why did
you support Hillary Clinton? Yeah, what's the alternative? Donald Trump? I think Donald Trump is an
extremely dangerous person trying to undermine American democracy. So I can't support him. You know, Hillary Clinton,
obviously her views are very, very different than mine. But that, in that moment, you know, that's where politics
becomes really tricky and it ain't easy. And you know, sometimes you have to do things that you're not really
all that excited about. But I think it was right
to try to do what I could to prevent Trump from getting elected. And in 2020 I did the same with Biden and we had more success with
Biden than we had with Clinton. - Well there's this interesting story about a long time coming
meeting between you and Obama in 2018, I believe. So Ari Rabin-Havt, who was a former deputy campaign manager, wrote a great book I would say about you, called The Fighting Soul, on the Road with Bernie Sanders. And he tells many great stories, but one of them is your
meeting with Obama. And he says that Obama told you, Bernie, I wish I could do a good Obama impression. Bernie, you're an Old Testament prophet. A moral voice for our
party giving us guidance. Here's the thing though, prophets don't get to be king. Kings have to make choices. Prophets don't. Are you willing to make those choices? Basically Obama was making the case that you have to sort of
moderate your approach in order to win. So was was Obama right? - Look, and again, that's
why politics is very, very fascinating. You know, sometimes you can run and lose and you really win. If your goal is not just individual power, but transforming society. One of my heroes, you mentioned
Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., who is one of my heroes. Another one of my heroes
is Eugene V. Debs, that ring a bell? - Yeah, Yes. - Okay, - For many reasons, yes. - Alright, Debs, many listeners may not know who Debs was. Debs was a union organizer
in the early 1900s, helped form the American Railway Union, ran for president, I think five times, ran the last time while
he was in a jail cell, because of his opposition to World War I. And got a million votes doing that. Deb's lost badly in
every race that he ran. In 1932, Franklin Dylan
Roosevelt ran for president. And much of what Roosevelt ended up doing was at least some of what
Debs had talked about. Debs helped lay the groundwork for ideas. So sometimes you can lose and win, if you're into transforming society. What my view is, where
I disagree with Obama is I think you have got
to raise consciousness among ordinary people. And when people know what's going on and are prepared in an organized
way to fight for change, they can make incredible changes. And we've seen that in recent years. You know, today we take for granted, well we have a woman running for president of the United States, so I'm supporting, we have had other women
running for president. We have women governors and senators. Not so many years ago in
the United States Senate, there were 98 men, two women, right? Even before that 1920 it was when women got the right to vote. How did that change? How did women's role in society change? It changed because women
and their male allies stood up in forts. Gay rights. I, you know, old enough to remember that anybody I knew who was gay, you think they would talk
about it, come out about it? No they wouldn't. That's changed. We have seen, you know, in terms of civil rights, massive changes, change happens when people
at the grassroots level demand that, we talked about
a healthcare a moment ago, we will get universal Medicare for all when millions of people make it clear that's what they want. So I believe politics starts
at the grassroots level and that's how you gotta
bring about change. - So just to go back to Obama though, in many ways he too is a
singular historic figure in American politics who has
brought about a lot of change. He's a symbol, I think
that would be remembered for a long time. What do you, what do you admire most about Obama? - Well, you know, I know him. We're not best friends, but I know him well and we
chat every once in a while. First of all, don't underestimate what it was in 2008 to be the first black president in the history of this country. And I think few would deny that he's an extraordinarily
intelligent guy. Very, very articulate, one of the best speakers
that there is in America. And that he and his family, and again, it's a lot harder than it looks. He and his family for eight years, that's his wife Michelle
and his kids really held that office in a way that earned, I think the respect of
the American people. Even if people disagree
with him politically. So he deserves, and again, don't ever, don't underestimate. I think, you know, years
ago there were people who said a black
president in our lifetimes never gonna happen. Can't happen. Too racist the country. He did it. And that is a huge accomplishment. And I think, you know, he has had some significant achievements in his presidential tenure. He and I, you know, did disagree
as, on a number of issues. I think he will tell you, I think his public stance is that, yeah, if you had to start all over again, he would do Medicare
for all, single payer. But where we are right now, the best he could do is
the Affordable Care Act. Well we disagree on that and
we disagreed on other things, but you know, I think he deserves an enormous amount of credit
for what he has accomplished. - And he like you, you also
gave a damn good speech opposing the Iraq war before, before running for president. And that takes courage. - Yes it does. - But then it also shows that
once you get into office, it's not so easy to oppose or to work against the military industrial complex. - It is very hard. People do not fully appreciate how powerful the establishment is. Whether it is the healthcare industry, whether it's the military
industrial complex, whether it's the fossil fuel industry. These people have
unlimited amounts of money. They're very smart
lobbyists in Washington D.C. and they're very, very greedy people. They want it all. - I have to ask you about capitalism, the pros and cons. So you wrote a book, It's Okay To Be Angry About Capitalism. That is a thorough, rigorous criticism of I would say hyper-capitalism. - Yes, that's right. - A certain kind of capitalism that you argue that we are existing in today in the United States. But a lot of people would
attribute to capitalism, all the amazing technological innovations over the past 70 plus years that have contributed to increase
in quality of life in GDP, in decrease in poverty, decrease in infant mortality, increase in expected life, life expectancy. So what are the sort of, how do you see the tension, the pros of capitalism and
the cons of capitalism? - You know, some of my European friends, they say, you know Bernie,
in the United States, you're considered to be very radical. If you were here in, you know, France or Denmark or someplace, you'd be kind of mainstream left guy. - Yeah. - Not all that radical. So this is what I think, I mean, I think the best
that we could do right now where we are right now is to create a society
which does two things. It encourages innovation, but at the same time it
makes sure that all people in a wealthy nation have a
decent standard of living. And some countries, if you look at Scandinavia
and this shocks people, 'cause we don't talk about this at all. So in Scandinavia it has
been the case, you know, Denmark, Finland, Norway, for years that people have healthcare. That's not a big deal. You end up in the hospital. So what, they don't pay a bill. You have, and this shocks people, in America right now, we have people who will get one week, two weeks off paid vacation. Sometimes people get nothing. You know that? There are people out there
who have no vacation at all. You know, in Germany you
get six weeks paid vacation and other holidays as well. People are shocked by that. In America, we don't have
paid family and medical leave. The only major country not to do it. You know, other countries, you know, your wife gets sick,
you stay home with her, your kids get sick, not a big deal. You get a certain amount of
paid family and medical leave, cost of prescription drugs
are far more affordable. So what you wanna do
is create what's called a social safety net. That means I don't care
what your income is, of course you're gonna have
"healthcare is the human right," of course you're gonna have
housing that is affordable. Of course your kids are gonna have great quality education
from childcare to university without much cost. You know, every country
has a little bit different. But there are countries
in the world right now, I think in Germany, I think college is now
tuition free, as I recall. For obvious reasons. They want to have the best
educated workforce they can. So in terms of government playing a role in a civilized democratic society of providing all basic needs, healthcare, education, housing,
retirement benefits, yes. That is what we've gotta do. Now, does that mean
then that the government is gonna run every mom and
pop store on the corner? Of course not. You want innovation, you want, you know, you want to go out and start a business, produce a product, good
luck to you, make money. But on the other hand, in
terms of even making money, we want you to be able to do that. Come up with good products, good services. But do I think you should end up with a hundred billion dollars? No, I don't. And you know what's funny? I had, I did an interview with Bill Gates, who's I think the third
wealthiest guy in the country, struggling behind Musk and Bezos I think. And he's only worth a
hundred plus billion. But he gets by. And I said to him, Bill, he was supposed to ask me questions. I asked him the question, I said, Bill, tell me something. You know, you're an
innovator with Microsoft and all that stuff. Did you know that you'd
become a multi-billionaire? And was that motivated you? That what motivated you? And he said no. And I believe he was honest. I loved doing whatever. I loved programming. You know, he was a kid,
he started doing that. He loved it. He was motivated by it. Do you think that there
are scientists out there who working day and night
trying to develop drugs to deal with Alzheimer's or cancer, that they're motivated? Oh boy, if I come up with this drug, I'm gonna become a billionaire. So I think, you know,
we wanna reward success, fine, but you don't
need a billion dollars. We want people to get satisfaction from what they accomplish, the work they're doing, whether it's cleaning the street or developing a new, you know, drug. So I think we have gone
a little bit too far, and you're right in
talking about the book, was an attack on, I call, you call it,
hyper-capitalism or uber-capitalism. But right now, and this
is not an American issue, this is a global issue. You know, it's not an accident that Musk is over there in
Saudi Arabia talking to the, you know, trillionaire
families in the Middle East. These guys that were
Putin and his friends, you got a probably not more than you know, five, 10,000 extraordinarily
wealthy families who have unbelievable economic power. Over 7 billion people on this planet. - Well Elon Musk is
actually an interesting case because he's investing all the money back into the businesses, so, I think there is a balance be struck and you just spoke to it, which is we can still
celebrate even big companies that are bringing wealth to the world, that are building cool stuff that are improving quality of life. But we can question of why is it that the working class
does not have a living wage in many cases. And sort of trying to find that balance. - That's right. That is the story. Look, I am no great fan of Elon Musk, especially in the role
that he's playing right now in Trump's campaign. But is he a brilliant guy? Of course he is. Does he work like a dog? Of course he does. Does he come up with these incredible innovations in companies? Yes he does. Does he a credit for that? Yeah he does. But you know, even in terms
of encouraging innovation, I would hope that we are
focusing on the important issues. I would love to see great innovators figure out how we build the
affordable housing that we need, come up with the great drugs that we need to solve many of the terrible illnesses that plague people. Climate change for God's sakes. Alright, do we need innovation? You know, we're making good,
some progress in this country. Should we do more? What kind of technologies out there? Can really cut back on carbon emissions? So, you know, I hope we focus on some of the most important
issues that impact humanity. But you know, reward innovators, I don't have a problem with that, but I do have a problem when three people end up owning more wealth than the bottom half of American society. - Maybe you can briefly speak to something you tweeted recently about Donald Trump going to McDonald's and the minimum wage. I believe of seven and a half dollars. Can you just speak to that tweet? - Look, nothing new. Trump didn't invent it. That's called a photo opportunity. I've done one or two in my life too. So you go to a place he puts on an apron, he, good old Donald Trump, just another McDonald's worker. But anyhow, he was, (indistinct), he did his photo op, that's fine. Kamala Harris was in North Carolina handing out food to people who were victims of the hurricane. Fine. That's what politicians do. But some reporter asked them, they said, you know, Mr. Trump, are you for raising the minimum wage? And that was a fair
question because you got, I don't know how many, but many, many thousands
of McDonald's workers and millions of other American workers right now are trying to get
by on 9, 10, 11 bucks an hour. Federal minimum wage
is seven and a quarter. You have people working
at McDonald's right now for sure who are working
for 12, 13 bucks an hour. So the reporter said how, you know, what do you think about raising
the federal minimum wage? And he's, oh these are great workers. I love McDonald's and so forth. He didn't answer the question. Well, I think that in the richest country in the history of the world, if you work 40 hours a week, you should not be living in poverty. And that means we should
have a federal minimum wage, not absurdly seven and a quarter an hour, but in my view, $17 an hour. Will that solve all the economic problems for working class people? No it won't. It'll help, it'll help. - Since running for president, you've often been attacked, especially from the right about being worth, I believe $2 million
in owning three houses. So from my perspective, the answer to that is most of your wealth has been earned from writing books. - Right.
- And selling those books. And you are one of the most
famous politicians in the world. And so your wealth in the context, in comparison to other
people of that fame level and other politicians that
actually quite modest. So what's your response
usually to those attacks? - Do I own three residences? Yeah, I do. I live here in Burlington, Vermont. We live in a middle class neighborhood. Nice house. Guess what, I'm a United States senator and I own a home in Washington
D.C. as do most senators. You know, you live there year after year. When I first went to, actually when I was in
Congress for 16 years, I rented all the time, but I got elected, okay,
got a six year term, you know what, let's buy a house. So we bought a house and guess what, like many thousands of people
in the state of Vermont. I have a summer camp, it's a nice one on Lake Champlain. That's it. Now how did I get the money? You're right. I wrote two bestselling books, including this book on capitalism. It was New York Times
bestseller for a while. And also another book was a youth book. And that's, and I make,
I dunno, 175,000 a year. And that's more or less how I became the zillionaire that I am. - Well I should also mention that sometimes the word mansion is used and I think you're a residence
is a quite modest, at least. - (indistinct) houses in Burlington. They're not, you know, they're middle class houses. Very nice house. - So when you started in politics I read you were worth $1,100. - That much? - Yeah, that much, that's right. Has the increase in wealth changed your ability to
relate to the working class? - Well that's a good question and I, obviously growing up
in a working class family has been maybe the most
singularly significant aspect of my politics. It's, you know, I grew up without money in a family that lived in
a rent control apartment in Brooklyn, New York. So that has impacted me. I'll tell you, I don't really
give a damn about money. I drive a car that's
11 years old, you know, it's an old car. And money, here is my
jewelry, it's a solar watch. - Nice. - And my wedding ring, that's about it. I don't have a Rolex watch,
would not be interested in it. But I'll tell you what
is, has impacted me. My wife who also grew up
in a working class family will tell you the same. We don't worry, you raise that issue. You know, if we have to go to the doctor, if our kids have to go to the doctor, we go to the doctor. I don't stay up nights worrying. I used to that there was a time I have to worry about how
to pay my electric bill. I don't worry about that anymore. So what has happened that stress, that economic stress of not worrying about a financial disaster, that's gone and that is enormous. I, you know, maybe as much or more than any other member of the Senate, work hard, not only for but
with working class people. I'm chairman of the committee
that deals with labor issues. We have been involved
probably in dozens of strikes all over this country. I've been on picket lines. So you know, I do my best. It's a very easy trap to fall into. You can get separate, separated from ordinary
people and their struggles. Not hard to do. I try as hard as I can not to do that. - So sometimes people say
can money buy happiness? I think I agree with you that worry, sort of being able to fill up your car and not worry about how
much it's going to cost or be able to get food for dinner and not worry about how much
it's gonna cost or even, you know, I've been very, I've
been poor most of my life, but I've been very fortunate recently to have enough wealth to
not worry about healthcare, to have insurance and be able to afford an emergency room visit. And that worry is just such a
giant lift off your shoulders. - Lex, I think you said it very well. I remember even to, and I
saw this change in myself when I used to go out and
I do the grocery shop. My wife does a lot of the cooking, I do the grocery shop and I used to look at the prices of everything. I do that less now, you know? I said, what the hell? So what it cost 50 cents
more for this can of stuff. So what? But that's a luxury you have when you don't have to worry about that. And I don't have to worry about it. But your point is, again, to me, I don't like big fancy
cars or big fancy homes. I don't go on, my wife will tell you, we've not been on a real
vacation for god knows how long. 'cause I work pretty hard. But the major thing about having money, which is enormously what
is just what you said, I don't have to worry if
somebody in my family gets sick, I don't have to worry about it. I don't have to worry about
putting food on the table, or paying the mortgage. So that's what money has done. - Okay, let me ask you about the future of the Democratic party. So one of the biggest impacts you've had is you've been the fuel, the catalyst for the increase
of the progressive caucus, the progressive movement
within the Democratic party. Do you think that is the future, the progressives, even democratic socialist
leaders will take over the party? - That is the most important
question regarding, to my mind, American politics. One of the successes that we've had, and I'm proud to have
played a role in this, is that if you go to the House
of Representatives right now, you'll see almost a hundred members of the Progressive caucus led very well by a woman from
Washington, Pramila Jayapal, does a great job. You know, it's people like
Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez and Ilhan Omar and many others. Many of them are young, often women, people of color and many of them come from
working class backgrounds. So what we have been able
to do in recent years, elect a number of strong progressives who represent working families
very, very effectively. The struggle in the Democratic party is between the corporate wing
and the progressive wing. And you know, the corporate
wing takes a whole lot of money, sees its salvation in
getting a whole lot of money from wealthy individuals and
you know, large corporations and is not very vigorous in my view, in representing the needs
of working class people. If they were, we would
have healthcare for all, we would have a minimum
wage that was a living wage, we would not have a housing crisis. We would not have a tax
system in which billionaires pay an effective tax rate that is lower than a truck driver or a nurse. So I think one of the reasons that Trump has had
political success is he, it's not so much his ideas. Most working class people don't think we should give tax breaks to billionaires or worry about the size of, you know, Arnold Palmer's genitalia. But they are angry. People are angry. And the Democrats have
not responded effectively to that anger. So the struggle that
we are waging right now is the future of the Democratic Party, will it be a party of the working class and represent working class issues, whether you're black or
white or Latino or Asian or whatever you may be. Or will it be a corporately
dominated party. That's the struggle we're in right now. - Did you consider running in 2024? From my perspective, I would've loved it. If you ran, I think you would've had
a great chance of winning. Not just the primary, but the presidency. - I gave about five minute thought to it. And the reason was we have a slogan in the progressive movement. It's not about me, it's about us. And you know, to have taken on Biden, who in my view on domestic
issues has been quite strong, would've really split the Democratic party and laid the groundwork
for an easy Trump victory. And that I did not want to see. So sometimes in life, and I
know that a lot of, you know, younger people don't agree with me, but you know, you gotta make
choices which are painful. So I strongly supported
Biden because I liked, I liked his domestic record. He's done some good things, against a lot of opposition and I'm supporting Kamala right now, but I'm doing my best to see that a dangerous guy like Donald Trump does not become president. - And the hope for you is that there will be future
candidates that are populous. That are progressive? - Yes, absolutely. - Let me ask you about AOC. She's become one of the
most influential voices for the progressive cause
in the United States. You two had a great
conversation on your podcast and in general you work together. So what's to you is most
impressive about her? - I really like Alexandria a whole lot. She is a young woman who comes from a working class background. She helped her mother clean houses. She was a bartender in
the Bronx, New York. And I'm very proud that
my campaign for president inspired her to run. And she ran on a progressive
working class program and she took on one of
the more powerful guys, a guy named Joe Crowley
who was pretty high up in the Democratic party and she knocked on doors. She had no money. She did a very strong grassroots effort and I appreciate that. So that's number one. I like what she stands for. She's incredibly smart and she has that certain
charisma that, you know, maybe you're born with
it, maybe you develop it. I don't know. She, a couple of years ago, she came up here to
Vermont to spent some time. She and her partner Riley, came up and I, we were out in the street and people came, saw her and they said, oh, congresswoman. And she just smiled. And she had an approach to
people, which was beautiful. I mean, it wasn't phony, it was real. But to be a politician,
you gotta know how to, you know, you could be
a great intellectual, but you can't relate to people. She relates well to people. And so I think both from
a personality perspective, from an intellect perspective, from an ideological perspective, she helped create the
Green New Deal concept. The need to create jobs as we
transform our energy system away from fossil fuel. Strong advocate for Medicare, for all workers' rights. So I'm a big fan of Alexandria. - What do you think is the
most powerful enduring impact you've had on American politics? Looking back, you've been
in it for quite a bit. - Well, you know, I don't know that I can give you a singular answer. You know, I was mayor of the city and proud of what we accomplished here, proud of my accomplishments
as a US senator. You know, when COVID was
devastating this country, and we had a massive economic downturn as chairman of the budget committee, I helped write the American Rescue Plan, which put a lot of money
into people's pockets. We cut childhood poverty by 40% by providing a child tax credit. We kept hospitals going,
we kept colleges going, kept people from getting evicted, helped get public health out there, people getting the vaccines. You know, I'm proud of that. But at the end of the day, I think what I have
shown is that the ideas, this gets back to the early
part of this conversation. The ideas that I am talking about are ideas that are widely supported. You know, so when you know, Donald Trump says Bernie
Sanders is a far left, you know, it's like I'm some kind of extremist coming up with ideas that nobody supports. Everything that I talk about, raising the minimum wage, healthcare for all, a tax system, which
demands the billionaires pay their fair share. Those are all popular ideas. But people didn't know, you gotta run for president and have 20,000 people
come out to your rallies and win 23 states. They say, "Hmm, well maybe those are not, ideas are not so crazy after all, and we've gotta entertain 'em." The establishment doesn't like that. They really don't. They want to tell you,
and this is their main, this is how they succeed. What they say, Lex is, the world is the way it is. It always will be this way. We got the wealth, we got the power. And don't think of anything else. This is the way it is. You have no power, give up. That they don't say it quite that way. But that's really what the intent is. And what we showed is
guess what, you know, running an outsider campaign, we took on the Democratic establishment, we came close to winning it, and we did win 23 states. And the ideas that we're talking about are the ideas that working class people, young people believe in. - Yeah, You showed that
it's possible to win, and that's an idea that will
resonate for decades to come. - And out of that came
dozens of candidates now in the House of Representatives, people on city council, people on state legislature who did win. - So we mentioned about
the worry of getting sick, the worry of life that many
people in the working class are suffering from. But there's also the worry that we all experience of
the finiteness of life. Do you ponder your own mortality? Are you afraid of it? - Well, when you're 83,
it does come across. - All right. - Yeah, of course I do and. - Are you afraid of it? - No, I'm not afraid of death. What I am afraid of, I think is infirmity. I have been, knock on wood, this is wood I think, reasonably healthy with an exception. I had a heart attack five years ago, and what blew me away was
that my body failed me for the very first time in my life. That was stunning to me. That, you know, suddenly
I was in a hospital bed. You know, I have a
great deal of compassion for people as we speak,
who are in nursing homes, having a hard time walking. Maybe your mental agility
is slipping a little bit. That's tough. That's what worries me. You know, we all are all gonna die. And you know, that's that. So I'm not afraid of that, but that aspect of getting
older and, you know, that does concern me. - That said, your mind is
as sharp as any politician that I've ever heard. And also, just off mic, I should say that just the
warmth that you radiate. And I deeply, deeply appreciate that. - Well, thank you. - Just as a human being. So you still got it after all that, after all those speeches, after all those Houses, after all of it, you, there's still the humility
and just the sharpness, the wit is all there. So Bernie, yeah, like I said, I wish you ever would've ran this year, but I also wish that
there's future candidates. - Yeah, and there will be, Lex. I absolutely do it. I think, you know, you asked about my legacy and the idea that they're all wonderful, really richly wonderful people who are now got involved
in the political process that are fighting for justice. That's a great legacy. - What gives you about the
future of this country, about the future of the world? - You know, sometimes one
can become very cynical. You look at the terrible wars
that are going on right now. You look at the divisiveness
in this country, the ugliness, the poverty. You look at climate change, you know, you can get depressed from all of that. But I am lucky in this sense in that I've had the opportunity, people often, what's, what inspires you? How do you keep going? And I remember, it
actually was in California where it really crystallized me. I was at a rally in the
agricultural area of California, and we did a rally, it was sunset. Thousands of people were out. And you looked around the crowd
and there were young people, black and white, and
Latino and Asian American, huge cross section. There were older people. And they all wanted to make America a very much better country. And it really moved me. I mean, I see that time and time, I've just been on the campaign trail. And you see great people, really beautiful people, who not interested in
becoming billionaires. They wanna improve life for
other people in this country. So, you know, I am
grateful that I, you know, it sounds like a platitude, you know, it's what every politician says,
oh, blah, blah, blah, blah. But when you go out around
the country, you know, you go to Native American reservations and you go to factories and everything, and you see so many
wonderful people, you know, I have been able to see things that many others have not, been to every state in the country. And that inspires me. - I share their optimism. I share your optimism. Bernie, I've been a fan for a long time. It's a great honor to speak to you today. Thank you so much. - Well, thank you very
much for what you're doing. Lemme just say a word
about what you're doing. - Okay, let's go. - To return the compliments here. - Okay. - You know, I think there
is a growing dissatisfaction with corporate media and not because it's fake news that the reporters lie all the time. That's nonsense. They don't. But I think people want to
hear folks really talk about, in a calm manner about some
of the very important issues which are not discussed
in corporate media. And I think that's what you
and some others are doing. So I thank you very much. It's a very important
service to the country, - And thank you from a mayor perspective of creating a wonderful town. And I look forward to looking at the, at the fall leaves,
walking around tonight. - Well, I didn't quite create the leaves. I did create some other things. - Okay, thank you so much, Bernie. - Thank you, Lex. - Thanks for listening
to this conversation with Bernie Sanders. To support this podcast, please check out our
sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with
some words from Aristotle. The real difference between
democracy and oligarchy is poverty and wealth. Wherever men rule by
reason of their wealth, whether they be few or many, that is an oligarchy and where the poor rule that is democracy. Thank you for listening and
hope to see you next time.