Ray Dalio: Principles, the Economic Machine, AI & the Arc of Life | Lex Fridman Podcast #54
the following is a conversation with Ray Dalio he's the founder co-chairman and Co chief investment officer of Bridgewater associates one of the world's largest and most successful investment firms that is famous for the principles of radical truth and transparency that underlies culture Ray is one of the wealthiest people in the world with ideas that extend far beyond the specifics of how he made that wealth his ideas that are applicable to everyone are brilliantly summarized in his book principles there are also even further condensed on several other platforms including YouTube where for example the 30 minute video titled how the economic machine works is one of the best educational videos I personally have ever seen on YouTube once again you may have noticed that the people I've been speaking with are not just computer scientists but philosophers mathematicians writers psychologists physicists economists investors and soon much more to me AI is much bigger than deep learning bigger than computing it is our civilizations journey into understanding the human mind and creating echoes of it in the machine that journey includes the mechanisms of our economy of our politics and the leaders that shape the future of both this is the artificial intelligence podcast if you enjoy it subscribe on YouTube give it five stars on Apple podcast support on patreon or simply connect with me on Twitter Alex Friedman spelled Fri D M a.m. this show is presented by cash app the number one finance app in the App Store I personally use cash app to send money to friends but you can also use it to buy sell and deposit Bitcoin most Bitcoin exchanges take days for a bank transfer to become investable through cash up it takes seconds cash app also has a new investing feature you can buy a fraction of stock which to me is a really interesting concept so you can buy $1 worth no matter what the stock price is brokerage services are provided by cash app investing a subsidiary of square and member si PC I'm excited to be working with cash app to support one of my favorite organizations that many of you may know and have benefited from called first best known for their first robotics and Lego competitions they educate and inspire hundreds of thousands of students in over 110 countries and have a perfect rating and Charity Navigator which means the donated money is used to maximum effectiveness when you get cash app from the App Store or Google Play and use code Lex podcast you get ten dollars in cash app will also donate ten dollars the first which again is an organization that I've personally seen inspire girls and boys to dream of engineering a better world and now here's my conversation with Ray Dalio truth or more precisely an accurate understanding of reality is the essential foundation of any good outcome I believe you've said that let me ask an absurd sounding question at the - South Col level so what is truth when you're trying to do something different than everybody else is doing and perhaps something that has not been done before how do you accurately analyze the situation how do you accurately discover the truth the nature of things almost the way you're asking the question implies that truth and newness have nothing or almost at odds and I just want to say that I don't think that that's true right so what I mean by truth truth is you know was a reality how does the reality work and so if you're doing something new that has never been done before which is exciting and I like to do the way that you would start with that is experimenting on what are the realities and the premises that you're using on that and how to stress test those types of things I think what you're talking about is instead the fact of how do you deal with something that's never been done before and deal with the Associated probabilities and so I I think in that don't let something that's never been done before stand in the way of you doing that particular thing you have a because almost the only way that you understand what truth is is through experimentation and so when you go out and experiment you're going to learn a lot more about what truth is but the essence of what I'm saying is that when you take a look at that use truth that find out what the realities are as a foundation do the independent thinking do the experimentation to find out what's true and change and keep going after that so I think that the way that when you're thinking about it the way you're thinking about it that almost implies that you're you're letting people almost say that they're reliant on what's been discovered before to find out what's true and what's been discovered before is often not true right conventional view of what what is true is very often wrong it'll go in ups and downs and you know I mean there are fads and okay this thing it goes this way and that way and so definitions of truths that are conventional are not the thing to go by how do you know the thing that has been done before it might succeed its to do you whatever homework that you have in order to try to get a foundation and then to go into worlds of not knowing and you go into the world of not knowing but not stupidly not naively you know you go into that world of not knowing and then you do experimenting and you learn what truth is and what's possible through that process I describe it as a five step process the first step is you go after your goals the second step is you identify the problems that stand in the way of you getting to your goals the third step is you diagnose those to get at the root cause of those then the fourth step is then now that you know the exact truth calls you get you design a way to get around those and then you follow through and do the designs you set out to do and it's the experimentation I think that what happens to people mostly is that they try to decide whether they're going to be successful or not ahead of doing it and they don't know how to do the process well because the nature of your questions are along those lines like how do you know well you don't know but a practical person who is also used to making dreams happen knows how to do that process I've given personality tests to shapers so the person what I mean by a shaper is a person who can take something from visual as visualization they have an audacious goal and then they go from visualization to actualization building it out that includes Elon Musk I gave him the personality tests I'm giving it to Bill Gates and give it to many many such shapers and they know that process that I'm talking about they experience it which is a process essentially of knowing how to go from an audacious but not in a ridiculous way not a dream and then to do that learning along the way that allows them in a very practical way to learn very rapidly as they're moving toward that goal so the the call to adventure the adventure starts not trying to analyze the probabilities of the situation but using what instinct how do you dive in so let's talk what it is it is being a it's simultaneously being a dreamer and a realist it's to know how to do that well the pole comes from a pole to adventure for whatever reason I can't tell you how much of its genetics and how much its environment but there's a early on it's exciting that notion is exciting being creative is exciting and so one feels that then one gets in the habit of doing that okay how do I know how do I learn very well and then how do I imagine and then how do I experiment to go from that imagination so it's that process that one and then one more one does it the one more the better one becomes that you mentioned shapers you know musk Bill Gates what who are the shapers do you find yourself thinking about when you're constructing these ideas the ones that define the archetype of a shaper for you well as I say a shaper for me is somebody who comes up with a great visualization usually a really unique visualization and then actually builds it out and makes the world different changes the world in that kind of a way so when I look at it Marc Benioff with Salesforce Chris Anderson with Ted Mohamed Younis with social enterprise in philanthropy Canada and Harlem Children's Zone there are all domains have shapers who have the ability to visualize and make extraordinary things happen what are the commonalities in some of them the commonalities our first of all the excitement of something new that call to adventure and and again that practicality the capacity to learn it and the capacity then they're they're able to be in many ways full rage that means they're able to go from the big big picture down to the detail so let's say for example Elon Musk he describes he gets a lot of money from selling PayPal his interest in PayPal he said why isn't anybody going to Mars or out of space what we're gonna do if the planet goes to hell and how do i how do we going to get that and nobody's paying attention to that he doesn't know much about it he then reads and learns and so on says I'm gonna take ok half of my money and I'm gonna put it in there and I'm gonna do this thing and he learns a blood level about and he's got creative okay that's one dimension and so he and gave me the keys to his car was one just early days into and Tesla and he then points out the details okay if you push this button here it's this the detail death so he's simultaneously talking about the big the big big big picture okay windows humanity going to abandon the panic but he will then be able to take it down into the detail so he can go let's call it helicoptering he can go up he can go down and see things at those types of perspective and they're using it with the other shapers and that's a common thing that they can do that another important difference that they have in mind is how they deal with people i mean meaning there's nothing more important than achieving the mission and so what they have in common is that there's a test that I give these personality tests because they're very helpful for understanding people and so I gave it to all these shapers and one of the things in workplace inventory test is this test and it has a category called concern for others whatever it's a they were all having concern for others this includes Mohan Yunis who invented microfinance social enterprise impact investing is Muhammad Yunus received the Nobel Peace Prize for this Congressional Medal of Honor one of the Fortune determined one of the 10 greatest entrepreneurs of our time he's built all sorts of businesses to give back money and social enterprise a remarkable man he has nobody that I know practically could have more concern for others I'm he lives a life of a saint I mean very modest lifestyle and he puts all his money into trying to help others and he tests low on the courts called concern for others because what it really those the questions under that are questions about conflict to get at the mission so they all Geoffrey Canada change Harlem Children's Zone and developed that to take children in Harlem and get them well taken care of not only just in their education but their whole lives harmless in also concern for others what they mean is that they can see whether though individuals are performing at a level that an extremely high level that's necessary to make those dreams happen so when you think of let's say Steve Jobs was famous for being you know difficult with people and so on and I don't know Steve Jobs so I can't speak personally to that but he's comments on Dae players and if you have 80 players if you put in B players pretty soon you'll have C players and so on that is a common element of them holding people to high standards and not letting anybody stand in the way of the the mission what do you think about that kind of idea is sorry to pause on that for a second that the a B and C players and the importance of so when you have a mission to really only have a players and be sort of aggressively filtering for that yes but I think that there are all different ways of being a players and I think in what a great a great team you have to appreciate all the differences in ways of being a players ok yes that's the first thing and then you always have to be super excellent to my opinion you always have to be really excellent people with people to help them understand each other themselves and get in sync with them about what's true about them and their circumstances now they're doing so that they're having a fabulous personal development experience at the same time as you're dealing with them so when I say that they're all different ways this is one of the than qualities you asked me the one of the qualities so one of the third qualities that I would say is to know how to deal well with your not knowing and to be able to get the best expertise so that you're a great Orchestrator of different ways so that the people who are really really successful unlike most people believe that they're successful because of what they know they're at even more successful by being able to effectively learn from others and tapping into the skills of people who see things different from them brilliant so how do you when they're that personality being first of all open to the fact that there's other people see things differently than you and at the same time have supreme confidence in your vision is there just a psychology of that do you see attention there between the confidence and the open-mindedness and now it's funny because I think we grow up thinking that there's a tension there right that there's a confidence and and the more confidence that you have there's attention with the open-mindedness and not being sure okay confident and accurate are almost negatively correlated many people they're extremely confident and they're often inaccurate and so I think one of the greatest tragedies of people is not realizing how those things two go together because instead it's really that by saying I know a lot and how do I know I'm still not wrong and how do I take that the best thinking of all available to me and then raise my probability of learning all these people think for them selves okay I mean meaning they're smart but they take in like vacuum cleaners they take in ideas of others they stress test their ideas with others they assess what comes back to them in the form of other thinking and they also know what they're not good at and what other people who are good at the things that they're not good at they know how to get those people and be successful all around because nobody has enough knowledge in their heads and that I think is one of the great differences Sutton the reason my company has been successful in terms of this is because of an idea meritocratic decision-making a process by which you can get the best ideas you know what's an idea meritocracy an idea meritocracy is to get the best ideas that are available out there and to work together with other people and the team to achieve that it's an incredible process that you describe in several places to arrive at the truth but apologize from romanticizing the notion blaming linger on it just having enough self belief you don't think there's a self delusion there that's necessary especially in the beginning you talk about in the journey maybe the trials or the abyss do you think there is value to deluding yourself I think what you're calling delusion is a bad word yes for uncertainty okay so I mean in other words because we keep going back to the question how would you know and all of these things know I think that delusion is not going to help you that you have to find out truth okay to deal with uncertainty not saying aunt listen I have this dream and I don't know how I'm going to get that dream I mentioned in my book principles and describe the process in a more complete way than we're gonna be able to go here but what happens is I say you form your dreams first and you can't judge whether you're going to achieve those dreams because you haven't learned the things that you're going to learn on the way toward those dreams okay so if that isn't delusion I wouldn't use delusion I think you're over emphasizing the importance of knowing whether you're going to succeed or not get rid of that okay if you can get rid of that and say okay no I can have that dream but I'm so realistic in the notion of finding out I'm curious I'm a great learner I'm a great experimenter along the way you'll do those experiments which will teach you more truths and more learning about the reality so that you can get your dreams because if you still live in that world of delusion okay and you think your lusion is helpful no the delusion isn't don't confuse delusion with not knowing yes but nevertheless so if we look at the abyss we can look at your own that you describe it's difficult psychologically for people so in many people quit many people choose a path that is more comfortable and I mean that the the heartbreak of that you know breaks people so if you have the dream and then there's this cycle of learning setting a goal and so on what's your value for the psychology of just being broken by these difficult moments well that's that that's classically the defining moment it's almost like evolution taking care of okay now you're you crash you're in the abyss oh my god that's bad and then the question is what do you do and it sorts people okay and that's what that's some people get off the field and they say oh I don't like this and so on and some people learn and they have decay and they have a metamorphosis and it changes their approach to learning it the number one thing it should give them is uncertainty you should take an audacious dreaming guy who wants to change the world crash okay and then come out of that crashing and saying okay I can be audacious and scared that I'm going to be wrong at the same time and then how do I do that because that's the key when you don't lose your audaciousness and you going after your big goal and at the same time you say hey I'm worried that I'm gonna be wrong you gain your radical open-mindedness that allows you to take in the things that allows you to go to the next level of being successful so your own process I mean you've talked about it before but it'll be great if you can describe it because our darkest moments are perhaps the most interesting so your own and what the prediction of the another Depression economic depression highest apologize economic depression can you talk to what you were feeling thinking planning and strategizing in those moments yeah that was that was my biggest moment okay building my little company this is in 1981-82 I had calculated that American banks had given a lot more money to lent a lot more money to Latin American countries than those countries were going to pay back and that they would have a debt crisis and that this had said the economy tumbling and that was an extremely controversial point of view then it started to happen and it happened in Mexico default that in August 1982 I thought that there was going to be a an economic collapse that was going to follow because there was a series of the other countries it was just playing out it as I had imagined and that well it couldn't have been more wrong that was the exact bottom in the stock market because central bank sees monetary policy blah blah blah and I couldn't have been more wrong and I was very publicly wrong and all of that and I lost money for me and I lost money for my clients and I was I only had a small company then but I had these were close people I had to let them go I was down to me as the last person that I I was so broke I had to borrow $4,000 from my dad to help to pay for my family bills very painful and at the same time I would say it definitely was one of the best things that ever happened to me maybe the best thing for him happened to me because it changed my approach to decision making it's what I'm saying in other words I kept saying okay how do I know whether I'm right how do I know what I'm not wrong it gave me that and now and it didn't give up by audaciousness because I was in a position what am I going to do am I gonna go down back put on a tie go to Wall Street and D and just do those things no I can't bring myself to do that so I'm in a juncture how do I deal with my risk and how do I deal with that and it tells me how to deal with my uncertainties and that taught me for example a number of techniques first to find the smartest people I could find who disagreed with me and to have quality disagreement I learned the art of thoughtful disagreement I learned how to produce diversification I learned how to do a number of things that's is what led me to create an idea meritocracy in other words person by person I hired them and I wanted the smartest people who would be independent thinkers who would disagree with each other and me well so that we could be independent thinkers to go off to produce those audacious dreams because you have to be an independent thinker to do that and to do that not independently of the consensus independently of each other and then work ourselves through that because who know whether you're gonna have the right answer and by doing that then that was the key to our success and the things that I want to pass along to people the reason I'm doing this podcast with you is you know I'm 70 years old and that is a magical way of a achieving success if you can create an idea meritocracy it's it's so much better in terms of achieving success and also quality relationships with people but that's what that experience gave me so if we can look around a little bit longer the idea of an idea meritocracy it's fascinating but especially because it seems to be rare not just in companies but in society so there's a lot of people on Twitter and public discourse and politics and so on that are really stuck in certain sets of ideas whatever they are so when you're confronted with it with an idea that said that's different than your own about a particular topic what kind of process do you go through mental are you arguing through the idea with the person sort of present is almost like a debate or do you sit on it and consider the world sort of empathetically if this is true then what is that war look like does that world make sense and so on so what's the process of considering those conflicting ideas I'm gonna answer that question but after saying first imposed implicit in your question is it's not common okay what's common produces only common results okay so don't judge yes anything that is good based on whether it's common because you're on its only going to give you common results if you want unique you have a unique approach yes okay and so that art of thoughtful disagreement is the is the capacity to hold two things in your mind at the same time the G I think this makes sense and then saying I'm not sure it makes sense and then try to say why does it make sense and then to triangulate with others so if I'm having a discussion like that and I work myself through and I'm not sure then I have to do that in a good way so I always give attention for example what let's start off what does the other person know relative to what I know so if a person has a higher expertise or things I'm much more inclined to ask questions I'm always asking questions if you want to learn you're asking questions you're not arguing okay you're taking in your assessing when it comes in to you does that make sense so you're learning something are you getting epiphanies and so on and I try to then do that if the conversation it as we're trying to decide what is true and we're trying to do that together and we see truth different then I might even call in another really smart capable person and try to say what is true and how do we explore that together and you go through that same thing so I would I said I describe it as having open mindedness and assertiveness at the same time that you can simultaneous be open-minded and taken with that curiosity and then also be assertive and say but that doesn't make sense why would this be the case and you do that back and forth and when you're doing that kind of back and forth on the topic like the economy which you have to me or have some naive but it seems both incredible and incredibly complex the economy the trading the transactions that these transactions between two individuals somehow add up to this giant mechanism you've put out a thirty minute video you have a lot of incredible videos online that people should definitely watch on YouTube but you've put out this thirty minute video titled how the economic machine works that is probably one of the best if not the best video I've seen that the internet in terms of educational videos so people should definitely watch it especially because it's not that the individual components of the video are somehow revolutionary but the simplicity and the clarity of the different components just makes you there's a few light bulb moments there about what how the economy works as a machine so as you described there's three main forces that drive the economy productivity growth short term debt cycle long-term debt cycle the the former productivity growth is how valuable things how much value people create valuable things people create the latter is people borrowing from the their future selves to hopefully create those valuable things faster so this is an incredible system to me maybe we can linger on in a little bit but you've also said well most people think about as money is actually credit total amount of credit in the u.s. is 50 trillion dollars total amount of money is three trillion dollars that's just crazy to me maybe maybe I'm silly maybe you can educate me but that seems crazy it gives me just pause that the human civilization has been able to create a system that has so much credit so that's a long way to ask do you think credit is good or bad for society that system of that's so fundamentally based on credit I think credit is great even though people often overdo it the credit is that somebody has earned money yeah and you know and what happens is they lend it to somebody else who's got better ideas and they cut a deal and then that person with the better ideas is gonna pay it back and if it works well it helps resource allocations go well providing people luck like the entrepreneurs and all of those they need capital they don't have capital themselves and so somebody's gonna give them capital and they'll give them credit and along those lines then what happens is it's not managed well in a variety of ways so I did a another book on principles principles of big debt crisis that go into that and it's free by the way I met put it free online on as a PDF so if you go online and you look principles for big debt crisis is under my name you can download it in a PDF or you can buy a print book of it and it goes through that particular process and so you always have it over done in always the same way everything by the way almost everything happens over and over again for the same reasons okay so these debt crisis has all happen over and over again for the same reasons they get it over done in the book it explains how you identify whether it's overdone or not they get it overdone and then you go through the process of making the adjustments according that and then and it explains how they can use the levers and so on if you didn't have credit then you would be sort of everybody sort of be stuck so credit is a good thing but it can easily be overdone so now we get into the quote what is money what is credit okay you get into money and credit so if you're holding credit and you think that's worthwhile keep in mind that the central bank let's say it can print the money what is that problem they you have an IOU the IOU says you're going to get a certain number of dollars let's say or yet nor euros and that is what the IOU is and so the question is will you get that money and and what will it be worth and then also you have a government which is a participant in that process because they want they are on the hook they old money and then will they print the money to make it easy for everybody to pay so you have to pay attention to those two I would suggest like you you recommend to other people just take that 30 minutes and it in it and it comes across pretty clearly but my conclusion is that of course you want it and even if you understand it and the cycles well you can benefit from those cycles rather than to be hurt by those cycles because I don't know the way the cycle works if somebody gets over indebted they have to sell an asset okay then I don't know me that's when assets become cheaper how do you acquire the asset it's a whole process so again maybe another another dumb question but there are no such things as dumb questions okay there you go but what is money so you've mentioned you know credit and money it's another thing that if I just zoom out from an alien perspective and look at human civilization it's incredible that we've created a thing that's not that only works because currency because we all agree it has value so I guess my question is how do you think about money as this emergent phenomenon and what do you think is the future of money you've come into that Bitcoin other forms what do you think is its history and future how do you think about money there are two things that money is for it's a medium of exchange and it's a store hold of wealth yes that's that that some money you know the so you could say something's a medium of exchange and then you could say is it a store hold of wealth okay so those and money is that vehicle that is those things and can be used to pay off your debt so when you have a debt and you provide it it pays off your debt so that that's that process and it's a I apologize to interrupt but it only can be a medium of exchange or store wealth when everybody recognizes it to be a value that's right right and so you see in the history and you around the world and you go to places I was in an island and the Pacific in which they had as money these big stones and literally they were taking a boat this this big carved stone and they were taking it from one of the islands to the other and it sank the the the piece of this big stone piece of money that they had and it went to the bottom and they still perceived it as having value so that it was even though it's in the bottom and it's this big hunk of rock the fact that somebody owned it they would say oh I'll loan it for this and that I've seen beads in different places shells converted to this and mediums of exchange and when we look at what we've got you're exactly right it is the notion that if I give it to you I can then take it and I can buy something with it and that's so it's a matter of perception okay and then we go through then the history of money and the vulnerabilities of money and what we have is there's through history there's been two types of money those that are claims on something of value like the connection of to gold or something that that would be an or they just are money without any connection which and then we have a system now which is a Fiat monetary system so that's what money is then it will last as long as its captive value and it works the way so let's say central banks when they get in the position of like they owe a lot of money like we have the in the case it's increasingly the case and they also another a bind and they have the printing press to print the money and get out of that and you have a lot of people might be in that position then you can print it and then it could be devalued in there and so history is show and forget about today history has shown that no currency has laughs every currency has either ended as being a currency been or devalued as the currency over periods of time long periods of time so it evolved and it changes but everybody needs that medium of exchange and everybody needs that store hold of wealth so it keeps changing what is money over a period of time but so much is being digitized today and there's this ideas that based on the blockchain of Bitcoin and so on so if all currencies like all empires come to an end what do you think well do you think something like Bitcoin might emerge as as a common store value store of wealth and a medium of exchange the problem with Bitcoin is that it's not a fact the medium exchange like it's not easy for me to go in there and buy things with it and then it's not an effective store hold of value because it has a volatility that's based on speculation and the like so yeah it's not a very effective saving that's very different from Facebook's prop of a stable value currency which would be effective as both a medium of exchange and a store hold of wealth because if you were to hold it and in the way it's linked to number of things that it's linked to would mean that it could be a very effective store hold of wealth then you have a digital currency that could be a very effective medium exchange and store hold of wealth that so in my opinion some digital currencies are likely to succeed more or based on that ability to do it then the question is what happens okay what happens is two central banks allow that to happen I really do believe it's possible to get a better form of money that central banks don't control okay a better force of money that the central banks don't control but then that's not yet happened and we also have to and so they've got to go through that evolutionary process in order to go through that evolutionary process first of all governments have got to allow that to happen which is to some extent a threat to them in terms of their power and and that's an issue and and then you have to also build the confidence and all of the components of it to say okay that's going to be effective because I won't get in I won't have problems owning it so I think that digital currencies have a have some element of potential but there's a lot of hurdles that are going to have to be gotten over I think that it'll be a very long time possibly never but anyway a very long time before we have that let's say get into a position that would be you know effective means relative to gold let's say if you were think of that because gold has a track record you know of thousands of years okay Unum all across countries and it has its mobility it has the ability to put it down and has certain abilities it's got disadvantages relative to digital currencies but but central banks will hold it like their central banks that worry about others you know the other country central banks might worry about whether the US dollar is going to print or not in that and so the thing they're going to go to is not going to be the digital currency thing they're going to go to is is gold or something else some other currency they got a ticket and so I think it's a long way to go well you think it's possible then one day we don't even have a central bank because of the a currency that doesn't that's cannot be controlled by the central bank is the primary currency or is that some very it would be very remote possibility or very long in the future got it again may be a dumb question but romanticize one when you sit back and you look you describe these transactions between individuals somehow creating short term debt cycles long-term debt cycles this productivity growth does it amaze you that this whole thing works that that there's however many millions and millions of people in the United States globally over seven billion people that this thing between individual transactions it just it works yeah it amazes me like I go I go back and forth between being in it and then I think like how does a credit card that is that really possible I'm still used to I look up credit card and I put it on the guy doesn't know me yeah it'll streamlines okay we're making the digital entries is that really secure enough and that that kind of thing and then it goes back and it goes this and it clears and it all happens and it what I marvel at that and those types of things is because of the the capacity of the human mind to create abstractions that are true you know it's imagination and then the ability to go from one level and then if these things are true then you go to the next level and if those things are true then you go to the next level and all those miracles that we almost become common it's like it when I'm flying in a plane or what I'm looking at all of the things that happen when I get communications in the middle of I don't know Africa or Antarctica and we're communicating in the ways where I see the face on my iPad of somebody my grandkid in someplace else and I look at and I say wow yes it all amazes me so while being amazing do you have a sense the principles you describe that the whole thing is stable somehow also or is this I was just lucky so the the principles that you describe are those describing a system that is stable robust and will remain so or is it a lucky accident of our early history my area of expertise is economics and market so I get down to it like a real nitty-gritty yes I can tell you whether the plane is going to fall out of the sky yes because of its particular fundamentals I don't know enough about that but it happens over and over again and so on it gives me faith ok so without me knowing it in the markets and the economy I know those things quote well enough in a sense to say that by and large that structure is right what we're seeing is right now whether there are disruptions and it has effects that can come not because that structure is right I believe that's right but whether it can be hurt by let's say connectivity or journal entries they could take from all the money away from you through your digital entries there's all sorts of things that can happen in various ways that means that that money is worthless or the system Falls but from what I see in terms of its basic structure and those complexities that still take my breath away I would say knowing them enough about the mechanics of them that doesn't worry me have you seen disruptions in your lifetime that really surprised you most all the time this is one of the great lessons of my life is that there many times I've seen things that I was very surprised about and that I realized almost all of those I was surprised about because they just they were just the first time it happened to me they didn't happen in my lifetime before but when I researched them they happened in other places or other people lifetimes so for example I remember 1971 the dollar there was no such thing as a devaluation of a currency didn't experience it and with the dollar was connected to gold and I was watching events happen and then you get on and and he's that definition of money all of a sudden went out the window because it was not tied to gold and then you have this devaluation and so and then or the first oil shock or the second oil shot or so many of these things and when I but almost always I realized that they when I looked in history they happened before they just happened in other people's lifetimes which led me to realize that I needed to study history and what happened in other people's lifetimes and what happened in other countries and places so that I would have timeless and universal principles for dealing with that thing so I oh yeah I've been some you know the implausible happening but it's like a one in a hundred year storm right okay or it's or they've happened before yeah nothing just not to you let me talk about if we could about AI a little bit so if Bridgewater associates manage about a hundred sixty billion dollars in assets and our artificial intelligence systems algorithms are pretty good with data what role in the future DC AI play in analysis and decision making in this kind of data rich an impactful area of investment I'm gonna answer that not only an investment but I give them more all encompassing rule for AI as I think you know for the last 25 years we have taken our thinking and put them in algorithms and so we make decisions that the computer takes those criteria algorithms and they put them and they're in there and it takes data and they operate as an independent decision-maker power in parallel with our decision-making so for me it's like there's a chess game playing and on person with my chess game and I'm saying it made that move and I'm making the move and how do I compare those two moves so so we've done a lot but let me give you an if the future can be different from the past and you don't have deep understanding you should not rely on AI okay those two things deep understanding of the cause-effect relationships that are leading you to place that bet in anything okay anything important let's say if it was do surgeries and you would say how do I do surgeries I think it's totally fine to watch all the doctors do the surgeries you can put it on I take a a digital camera and do that convert that into AI algorithms that go to robots and have them do surgeries and I'd be comfortable with that because if it'll do that if the keeps doing the same thing over and over again and you have enough of that that would be fine even though you may not understand the algorithms because you're if the things happening over and over again and you're not asking the future would be the same that appendicitis or whatever it is will be handled the same way the surgery that's fine however what happens with AI is for the most part is it takes a lot of data and it with a high enough sample size and then it puts together its own algorithms okay there are two ways you can come up with algorithms you can either take your thinking and express them in algorithms or you can say let put the data in and say what is the algorithm when you that's machine learning yeah and when you have machine learning it'll give you equations which quite often are not understandable you would try to say okay now describe what it's telling you it's very difficult to describe and so they can escape understanding and so it's very good for doing those things that could be done over and over again if you're watching and you're not taking that but if the future is different from the past and you have that then you're at the future is different from the past and you don't have deep understanding you're going to get in trouble and so that's the main thing as far as AI is concerned ai and I'd say computer replications of thinking in very ways I think it's particularly good for processing but but the the notion of what you want to do is better most of the time determined by the human mind that what are the principles like okay how should I raise my children it's gonna be a long time before AI you're going to say it has a good enough judgment to do that who should I marry on all of those things maybe you can get the computer to help you but if you just took data and do machine learning it's not going to find it if you were to then take one of my criteria for any of those questions and then say put them into an algorithm and you'd be a lot better off than if you took AI to do it but by and large the mind should be do used for inventing and those creative things and then the computer should be used for processing because it could process a lot more information a lot faster a lot more accurately and a lot less emotionally so any notion of thinking in the form of processing type thinking should be done by a computer and anything that is in the notion of doing that other type of thinking should be operating with with the brain in operating in a way where you know you can say ah that makes sense you know the process of reducing your understanding down to principles is kind of like the process the the first one you mentioned a type of AI algorithm where you're encoding your expertise you're trying to program right the humanists trying to write a program how do you think that's attainable the process of reducing principles to a computer program or when you when you say when you write about when you think of all principles is there still a human element that's not reducible to an algorithm my experience has been that almost all things including those things that I thought were pretty much impossible to express I've been able to express in algorithms but that doesn't constitute all things so you can come you can who you can express far more than you can imagine you'll be able to express so I use the example of okay it's not how do you raise your children okay you will be able to take it one piece by piece okay how well at what age what school and the way to do that that means my experience is to take that and when you're in the moment of making a decision or just past making a decision to take the time and to write down your criteria for making that decision in words okay that that way you'll get your prize your principles down on paper I created an app online call it's right now just on the iPhone it'll be in and try getting an Android it'll be an Android it'll be in a few months it'll be on an awesome but it has an app in there that helps people write down their own principles because this is very powerful so when you're in that moment where you've just you're thinking about it and you're thinking your criteria for you know choosing the school for your child or whatever that might be and you write down your criteria or whatever they are those principles you write down and you you that will at that moment make you articulate your principles in a very valuable way and if you have the way that we operate that you have easy access so then the next time that comes along you can go to that or you can show those principles to others to see if they're the right principles you will get a clarity of that principle that's really invaluable in words and that'll help you a lot then but then you start to think how do i express that in data and it'll shock you about how you can do that you'll you'll form an equation that will show the relationship between these particular parts and then the essentially the variables that are going to go into that particular equation and you will be able to do that and you take that little piece and you put it into the computer and then take the next little piece and you put that into the computer and before you know it you will have a decision making system that's of the sort that I'm describing so that you're almost making an argument against the past an earlier statement you've made and you're convinced to me at first you said there's no way a computer could raise a child essentially but now you've described in making me think of it if you have that kind of idea meritocracy you have this rigorous approach at Bridgewater takes an investment and apply it to raising a child it feels like through the process each is described we could as a society arrive at a set of principles for raising a child and encoded into a computer that originality will not come from machine learning the first time you do so that the original yes that's what I'm referring to but eventually as we together develop it and then we can automate it that's why I'm saying the processing yes can be done by the computer so we're saying the same thing we're not inconsistent and we're saying the same thing that the processing of that information in those algorithms can be done by the computer in a very very effective way you don't need to sit there and process and try to weigh all those things in your equation and all those things but that notion of okay how do I get at that principle and you're saying you surprised yes you how much you can express that's right you can do that so this is where I think you're going to see the future and right now we you know go to our devices and we get information to a large extent and then we get some guidance we have our GPS and the like in my opinion principles principles principles principles I want to emphasize that you write them down you've got those principles they will be converted into algorithms for decision-making and they're going to also have the benefit of collective decision-making because right now individuals based on what stuck in their heads are making their decisions in very ignorant ways they're not the best decision makers they're not the best criteria and they're operating when those principles are written down and converted into algorithms it's almost like you'll look at that and follow the instructions and it'll give you better results medic medicine will be much more like this you can go to your local doctor and you could ask his point of view and whatever and he's rushed and he may not be the best doctor around and you're gonna go to this thing and get that same information or just automatically have it input in that and it's gonna tell you okay here's what you should go do and it's going to be much better than your local doctor and that that the converting of information into intelligence okay intelligence is the thing we're coming out with again I'm 70 and I want to pass all these things along so all these tools that I've found need to develop all over these periods of time all those things I want to make an available and what's going to happen as you there they're going to see this they're going to see these tools operating much more that way the idea of converting data into intelligence intelligence for example on what they are like right or what are your strengths and weaknesses intelligence on who why work well with under what circumstance analyzed intelligence we're gonna go from what are called systems of record which are a lot of okay information organized in the right way to intelligence and we're going to that Trent that'll be the next big move in my opinion and so you will get intelligence back and that that intelligence comes from reducing things down to principles into that's how what happens so what's your intuition if you look at the future societies do you think we'll be able to reduce a lot of the the details of our lives down to principles that would be further and further automated I think the real question hinges on people's emotional emotions and irrational behaviors I think that there's subliminal things that we want okay and then there's cerebral the you know conscious logic oh and the too often are at odds so there's almost like to use and you write and so let's say what do you want and your mind will answer one thing your emotions or lands or something else so when I think about it I think emotions are I want inspiration I want love is a good thing being able to have a good impact but it is in the reconciliation of your subliminal wants and your intellectual wants so that you really say they're aligned and so to do that in a way to get what you want so irrationality is a bad thing if it means that it doesn't make sense in getting you what you want but you better decide what you your satisfying is it the lower level you emotional subliminal one or is it the other but if you can align them so what I find is that by going from my you experience the decision do this thing subliminally and that's the thing I want it comes to the surface I find that if I can align that with what my logical me wants and does do the devil double-check between them and I get the same sort of thing that that helps me a lot I find for example meditation is one of the things that helps to achieve that alignment it's fantastic for achieving that alignment and often then I also want to not just do it in my head I want to say does that make sense help you you and so I do with other people and I say okay well let's say I want this thing and whatever it does that make sense and when you do that kind of triangulation you're to use and you do that with also the other way then you certainly want to be rational right but rationality has to be defined by those things and then you discover sort of new ideas that the drive you're just so-so is you're always at the edge of the set of principles you've developed you're doing new things always well that's where the intellect is needed well and the inspiration the inspiration is needed to do that right like what are you doing it for the segment what is the velocity the hunger what's uh if you can be Freud for a second what's in that subconscious well it's the thing that drives us all I think you can't generalize of us I think different people are driven by different things there's not a common one right so like if you would take the shapers I think it is a combination of subliminally it's a combination of excitement curiosity is there a dark element there is there is their demons there's their fears is there in your sense uh most of the ones the most of the ones that I'm dealing with I have not seen that I see the what I really see is who if I can do that that would be the most dream and then the act of creativity and you say whew so excitement is one of the things curiosity is a big pull okay and then tenacity you know okay at that to do those things but definitely emotions are entering into it then there's an intellectual component of it too okay it may be empathy it may can I have an impact can I have an impact the desire to have an impact that's an emotional thrill and but it also it has empathy and then you start to see spirituality but a spirituality I mean the connectedness to the whole you start to see people operate those things those tend to be the things that you see the most of and I think you're gonna shut down this idea completely but there's a notion that some of these shapers really walk the line between sort of madness and genius do you think madness has a role in any of this or do you still see Steve Jobs in a mosque is fundamentally rational the others a continuum there then what comes to my mind is that genius is that often at the edge in some cases imaginary genius is at the edge of insanity and it's almost like a radio that I think okay if I can tune it just right it's playing right but if I go a little bit too far yeah it goes off yeah okay and so you can you can see this kay Jamison was studying bipolar what it shows is that you know that's definitely the case because when you're going out there that imagination whatever is that the can be near the edge sometimes it doesn't have to always be so let me ask you about automation that's been a part of public discourse recently what's your view on the impact of automation of whether we're talking about AI a more basic forms of automation on the economy in the short term in the long term do you have concerns about it as some do or do you think it's overblown it's not overblown and it's a it's a giant thing it'll come at us in a very big way and in the future we're right at the edge of even really accelerating it it's had a big impact and it will have a big impact and it's a two-edged sword because it'll have tremendous benefits and at the same time it has profound benefits in employment and distributions of wealth because the way I think think about it is there are certain things human beings can do and over time we've evolved to go to almost higher and higher levels and now we're almost like we're at this level you know it used to be your labor you would then do your labor and okay we can get past the labor we got tractors and things and you go up up up up up and we're up over here and to the point in our minds we're okay anything related to mental processing the computer can probably do better and we can find that and so other than almost inventing you're at a point where these are the Commission's and the automation will probably do it better and and that's accelerating and that's a force and that's a force for the good and at the same time it what it does is it displaces people in terms of employment and changes and it produces wealth gaps and all of that so I think the real issue is that that has to be viewed as a national emergency in other words I think the well the wealth gap theme the income gap the opportunity gap all of those things that force is creating the problems that we're having today a lot of the problems the the great polarity the disenfranchised eat dis not equal not anything approaching equality of education all of these problems a lot of problems are coming as a result of that and so there it needs to be viewed really as an emergency situation in which there's a good work good plan worked out for how to deal with that effectively so that it's dealt with effectively so because it's it's it you know it's good for the average it's good for the impact but it's not good for everyone in the crates that polarity so it's got to be dealt with yeah and you've talked about the American Dream and that that's something that all people should have an opportunity for and then we need to reform capitalism to give that opportunity for everyone let me ask kind of one of the ideas in terms of safety nets that support that kind of opportunity there's been a lot of discussion of universal basic income amongst people so there's andrew yang who's running on that he's a political candidate running for president on the idea of the universal basic income what do you think about that giving a thousand dollars or some amount of money to everybody as a way to give them the the padding the freedom to sort of take leaps to take the call for adventure to take the crazy procedure before I get right into the my thoughts on universal basic income I want to start with the notion that opportunity education development creating equality so that you people say there's equal opportunity and is the most important thing and then to find out what is the amount how are you going to provide that what where what how does it how do you get the money into a public school system how do you get the teaching how do you what do the fleshing out that plan to create equal opportunity in all of its various forms is the most pressing thing to do and so I'm you know that is that the the opportunity is the most important one you're kind of implying is the earlier the better sort of like opportunity to education so in the early development of a human being is when you should have the equal opportunities that's the most important right in the first phase of your life which goes from birth until you're on your own and you're an adult and you're now out there and you deal with early childhood development okay and you take the brain and you say what's important the child care okay like the it makes a world of difference for example if you have good parents who are trying to think about instilling the stability in a non traumatic environment to provide them so I would say the good guidance that normally comes from parents and the good education that they're receiving are you know the most important things in that person's development the ability to be able to be prepared to go out there and then to go into a market that's an equal opportunity job market to be able to then go into that kind of market is a system that creates not only fairness anything else is not fair and then in addition to that it also is a more effective economic system because the consequences of not doing that are to a society or devastating if you look at what the difference in outcomes for somebody who completes high school or doesn't complete high school or does each one of those state changes and you look at what that means in terms of their costs to society not only themselves but their cost and incarceration costs and then on crimes and all of those things it's economically better for the society and it's fairer if they can complete fake an get those particular things once they have those things then you move on to other things but yes from birth all the way through that process anything less than that is bad is a tragedy and and so on so that's what uh that's yeah those are the things that I'm estimate and so my I'm what I would want to above all else is to provide that so with that in mind now we'll talk about universal basic income start with that well now we can talk about well the bright because you have to have that now the question is what's the best way to provide that okay so when I look at UB I I really think is what is going to happen with that thousand dollars okay and will that thousand dollars come from another program does that come from an early childhood developmental program who are you giving the thousand dollars to and what will they do for that thousand dollars I mean like my reaction would be I think it's a great thing that everybody should have almost a thousand dollars in their bank and so on but when do they get to make decisions or who's the parent a lot of pit times you can give a thousand dollars to somebody and it could have a negative result it can have you know they can use that money detrimental II not just for octave Lee and if that money's coming away from some of those other things that are going to produce the things I want and you're shifted to let's say to come in and give a check doesn't mean it's outcomes are going to be good and providing those things that I think are so fundamental important if it was just everybody can have a thousand dollars and use it so when the time is not well and use it well that would be really really good because it's almost like everybody you'd wish everybody could have a thousand dollars worth of wiggle room in their lives okay and I think that would be great I love that but we I want to make sure that these other things that are taken care of so if it comes out of that budget and you know I don't want it to come out of that budget that's gonna be doing those things and I you know so you have to figure it out and you know a certain skepticism that human nature will use may not always in fact frequently may not use that thousand dollars for the optimal to support the optimal trajectory some will and some won't one of the big advantages of universal basic income is that if you put it in the hands let's say parents who know how to do the right things and make the right choices yes for their children because they're responsible and you say I'm gonna give them a thousand dollars wiggle room to use for the benefit of their children wow that sounds great if you put it in the hands of let's say an alcoholic or drug addicted parent who is not making those choices well for their children and what they do is they take that thousand dollars and they don't use it well then that's going to produce more harm than good well put your if I may say so one of the richest people in the world so you're a good person ask does money buy happiness no it's been shown that between once you get over a basic level of income so that you can take care of the pain then you know you can health and whatever there's no correlation between the level of happiness that one has and the level of money that one has they that would has the highest correlation is quality relationships with others community if you look at surveys of these things across all surveys and all societies it's a sense of community and per into personal relationships that is not in any way correlated with money you can go down to native tribes and you know very poor places or you can go in all different communities and so they have the opportunity to have that I'm very lucky in that I started with nothing so I had the full range I can tell you I you know I not having money but but and then having quite a lot of money and I you know I did that in the right order I'll tell you started from nothing in Long Island yeah and my dad was a jazz musician but I but I had all really that I needed because I had two parents who loved me and took good care of me and I went to a public school that was a good public school and basically you know that you don't need much more than that in order to that's the equal opportunity part anyway what I'm saying is no I experienced the range and else and there are many studies on the answer to your question no money does not bring happiness bring money gives you an ability to make choices does it get in the way in any way of forming those deep meaningful relationships it can there are lots of ways that it makes negative that's one of them it could stand in the way of that yes okay but I could almost list the ways that it could stand it could be a problem yeah what does it buy so if you can elaborate your mission a bit of freedom at the most fundamental level it doesn't take a whole lot but it takes enough that you can take care of your yourself and your family to be able to learn do the basics of have the relationships have healthcare the basics of those types of things you know you can cover the patients and then to have maybe enough security but maybe not too much security that's right yeah that you essentially are okay okay that is that's really good and you don't that's what a that's what money will get you and everything else is could go either way well there's more there's more okay then beyond that what it then starts to do that's the most important thing yes but beyond that what its Tensta much to do is to help to make your dreams happen in various ways okay so for example now I you know look at my case it's a those dreams might not be just my own dreams they're their impact on others dreams okay so my own dreams might be um I don't know I can pass along these at my stage in life I could press along these principles to you and I can give those they or I could do whatever I can go on an adventure I can start a business I can do those other things be productive I can self actualize in ways that might be not possible otherwise and so that's that's my own belief and then in a dot and I can also help others I mean this is you know to the extent when you get older and with time and whatever very you start to feel connected spiritual spirituality is what I'm referring to you can start to have an effect on others that's beneficial and so on gives you the ability I could tell you that people who are very wealthy who have that a feel that they don't have enough money Bill Gates will feel almost broke because relative to the things he'd like to accomplish through the Gates Foundation and things like that you know oh my god he doesn't have enough money to accomplish the things he wishes for but those things are not you know they're not the most fundamental things so I think that people sometimes think money has value money doesn't have value the money is like you say just a of exchange in a store although well and so what you have to say is what is it that you're going to buy now there are other people who get their gratification in ways that are different from me but I think in many cases that let's say somebody who used money to have a status symbol I what would I say or that's probably unhealthy but then I don't know somebody who says I love a great gorgeous painting and it's going to cost lots of money in my priorities mecan't not Kemp get there but but that doesn't mean I don't who am I to judge others in terms of let's say their elements of the freedom to do those things so it's a little bit complicated but by and large that you know that's my view on money and wealth so let me ask you in terms of the idea of so much of your passions and life has been through something you might be able to call work Alan Watts has this quote he said that the real key to life secret of life is to be completely engaged with what you're doing in the here and now and instead of calling it work realize that it's play so I'd like to ask what is the role of work in your life's journey or in a life's journey and what do you think about this modern idea of kind of separating work and let work-life balance I have a principle that I believe in is make your work in your passion the same thing ok ok so that's similar face uh-uh-uh-uh-uh in other words if you can make your work in your passion it's just gonna work out great and then of course people have different purposes of work and I don't want to be theoretical about that people have to take care of their family so money at a certain point is the base is an important component of that work so you look beyond that what is the money gonna get you and what are you're trying to achieve but the most important thing I agree is meaningful work and meaningful relationships like if you can get into the thing that you're at your mission that you're on and you are excited about that mission that you're on and then you can do that with people who you have the meaningful relationships with you have meaningful work and meaningful relationships I mean that is fabulous for most people and it seems that many people struggle to get there not out of not necessarily because they're constrained by the fact that they have the financial constraints of having to provide for their family and so on but it's I mean moat you know this idea is out there that there needs to be a work-life balance which means that most people on this thing we're going to return to the same things most doesn't mean optimal but most people seem to not be doing their life's passion not be not unifying work and passion why do you think that is is well the work-life balance there's a life arc that you go through starts at zero and ends somewhere in the vicinity of 80 and there is a phase and there's a and you could look at the different degrees of happiness that happened in those phases I can go through that if that was interesting but we don't have time probably for it but you get in the part of the life that part of the life which has the lowest level of happiness is aged 45 to 55 and and and because as you move into this second phase of your life in the first phase of your life is when you're learning dependent on others second phase of your life is when you're working and others are dependent on you and you're trying to be successful and in that phase of one's life you encounter the work-life balance challenge because you're trying to be successful at work and successful at parenting and successful and successful and all those things that take your demand and they get into that and I understand that problem in the work/life balance the issue is primarily to know how to approach that okay so I understand it stressful it produces stress and it produces bad results and it produces the lowest level of happy in one's life it's interesting as you get later in life the levels of happiness rise in the highest level of happiness is between ages 70 and 80 which is interesting there are other reasons but in appspot I want and that and the key to work-life balance is to realize and to learn how to get more out of an hour of life okay because an hour of work what people are thinking is that they have to make a choice between one thing and another and of course they they do but they don't realize that if they develop the skill to get a lot more out of an hour it's the equivalent Earl if-- and so you know that's why in the book principles I try to go into okay now how can you get a lot more out of out of an hour that allows you to get more life into your life and it reduces the work-life balance and that's the primary struggle in that 35 to 45 you know if you could linger on that sort of what are the ups and downs of life in terms of happiness in general and perhaps in your own life when you look back at the moments the peaks it's pretty pretty much same pattern really in one's life is tends to be a very happy period all the way up and sixteen is like a really great happy you know I think like myself you start to get elements of freedom you get your driver's license you know whatever but 16 is there a junior year in high school quite often could be a stressful period to try to get thing about the high school you go into college tends to be very high happiness generally speaking freedom and then freedom yeah friendships all of that freedom is a big thing and then you and then 20 23 is a peak point kind of an unhappy 'no staff freedom then sequentially one has a great time they date they go out and so on you find the love of your life you begin to develop a family and then with that as time happens you have more of your work-life balance challenges that come and your responsibilities and then as you get there in that mid part of your life that is the most that is the biggest struggle chances are you will crash in that period of time you know you'll have you'll have your series of failures that's the that's that that's when you go into the abyss you learn you hopefully learn from those mistakes you have to metamorphosis you come out you change hopefully become better and you take more responsibilities and so on and then when you get to the later part as you are starting to approach the transition in that late part of the second phase of your life before you go into the third phase of your life second phase is you're working trying to be successful third phase of your life is you want people to be successful without you okay yes yeah you want your kids to be successful without you because when you're at that phase they're at making their transition from the first phase to the second phase and they're trying to be successful you want them to be successful without you and you have and your parents are gone and then you have freedom and then you have freedom again and that with that freedom and then you have these histories shown with this you have friendships you have perspective on life you have different things and that's one of the reasons that that later part of the life can be real it on average actually it's the highest very interesting thing if they and they their surveys and say how good do you look and how good do you feel and and that's the highest survey the person now they not look in the best yeah and they're not feeling the best right maybe it's thirty five that they're actually looking the best and feeling the best but they rank the highest at that point survey results of being the highest so that seventy to eighty period of time because it has to do with an attitude on life then you start to have grandkids Oh grandkids are great and you start to experience that transition well so that's what the Ark of life pretty much looks like in and I'm experiencing it you know that's good that when you meditate we're all human or immortal when you meditate it on your own mortality having achieved a lot of success on whatever dimension what do you think is the meaning of it all the meaning of our short existence on earth as human beings I think that evolution is the greatest force of in the universe and that were all tiny bits of an evolutionary type of process where it's just matter and machines that go through time and that we all have a deeply embedded inclination to evolve and contribute to evolution so I think it's too personally evolved and contribute to the evolution I could have predicted you would answer that way it's brilliant and exactly right and I think we've said it before but I'll say it again you have a lot of incredible videos out there that people should definitely watch I don't say this often I mean it's literally the best spend of time and in terms of reading principles and reading basically anything you write on LinkedIn and so on there's a really good use of time it's a lot of light bulb moments a lot of transformative ideas in there so alright thank you so much it's been an honor and I really appreciate it it's been a pleasure for me too I'm happy to hear it's used to you and others thanks for listening to this conversation with Ray Dalio and thank you to our presenting sponsor cash app downloaded use code let's podcast you'll get ten dollars and ten dollars will go to first a stem education nonprofit that inspires hundreds of thousands of young minds to learn and to dream of engineering our future if you enjoy this podcast subscribed on YouTube gave it five stars in that podcast support it on patreon or connect with me on Twitter finally closing words of advice from Ray Dalio pain plus reflection equals progress thank you for listening and hope to see you next time you