Dava Newman: Space Exploration, Space Suits, and Life on Mars | Lex Fridman Podcast #51
the following is a conversation with David Newman she's the Apollo program professor at MIT and the former deputy administrator of NASA and has been a principal investigator on for spaceflight missions her research interests are an aerospace biomedical engineering investigating human performance in varying gravity environments she has designed and engineered and built some incredible spacesuit technology namely the biosuit that we talk about in this conversation due to some scheduling challenges on both our parts we only had about 40 minutes together and in true engineering style she said I talk fast you picked the best questions let's get it done and we did it was a fascinating conversation about space exploration and the future of space suits this is the artificial intelligence podcast if you enjoy it subscribe on YouTube give it five stars an apple podcast supported on patreon or simply connect with me on Twitter Alex Friedman spelled Fri D M a.m. for the first time this show is 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history 500 years ago Ferdinand Magellan's crew was first to circumnavigate the globe but he died I think people don't know like halfway through and so did 242 of the 260 sailors that took that three-year journey what do you think it was like for that crew at that time heading out into the unknown to face probably likely death do you think they were filled with fear with excitement probably not fear I think in all of exploration is the challenge and the unknown so probably wonderment and then just the when you really are sailing the world's oceans you have extreme weather of all kinds when we were circumnavigating it was challenging a new dynamic you really appreciate Mother Earth you appreciate the winds of the ways so back to Magellan his crew since they really didn't have you know a three-dimensional of the globe of the earth when they went out just probably looking over the horizon thinking what's there what's there so I would say the challenge that had to be really important in terms of the team dynamics on that leadership had to be incredibly important team dynamics too how do you keep people focused on the mission do you think the psychology that's interesting that's probably echoes of that and the space exploration stuff we'll talk about so the psychology of the dynamics between the human beings on the mission is important absolutely for a Mars mission it's there's lots of challenges technology but you know since I specialize in keep my astronauts alive the cycle social issues the psychology of a psychosocial Team Dynamics leadership that's you know we're all people so that's gonna be that's a he always a huge impact one of the top three I think of any isolated confined environment it can any mission that is really pretty extreme so your twitter handle is david explorer so when did you first fall in love with the idea of exploration ah that's a great question maybe as long as I can remember as I grew up in Montana in the Rocky Mountains and Helena and the capital is so literally a mount Helen it was my backyard was right up there so exploring being in the mountains looking at caves just running around but always being in nature so since my earliest memories I you know think of myself is kind of exploring the natural beauty of the Rocky Mountains where I grew up so exploration is not living at changing domain it's just anything so the natural domain of any kind but going out to the woods into the place you haven't been it's all exploration I think so yeah I have a pretty all-encompassing definition what about space exploration when we first captivated by the idea that we little humans couldn't venture out into the space into the great unknown enough space so it's a great year to talk about that the 50th anniversary of Apollo 11s I was alive during Apollo and specifically Apollo when I was 5 years old and I distinctly remember that I remembered that humanity I'm sure I probably didn't know their names at the time you know there's Neil Armstrong Buzz Aldrin and never forget Michael Collins in orbit no those three man you know doing something that just seemed impossible seemed impossible a decade earlier even a year earlier but the Apollo program really inspired me and then I think it actually just taught me to dream to any impossible mission could be possible with enough focus yeah I'm sure you need some luck but you definitely need the leadership you need the the focus of the mission so since an early age I thought of course people should be interplanetary of course people we need people on earth and we're gonna have people exploring space as well that seemed obvious you know at that age it opened it up before we saw men on the moon it was not obvious to me at all but once we understood that yes absolutely astronauts that's what they do they explore they go into space and they land on other planets or moons so again maybe a romanticized philosophical question but when you look up at the stars knowing that you know there's at least a hundred billion of them in the Milky Way galaxy right so we're really a small speck in this giant thing that's the visible universe how does that make you feel about our efforts here I love the perspective I love that perspective I always opened my public talks with a big Hubble Space Telescope image looking out until you mentioned just now the solar system the Milky Way because I really think it's really important to know that we're just a small pill blue dot we're really fortunate we're on the best planet by far life is fantastic that we know of you're confident this is the best planet that we know of I mean I searched my research as you know in mission worlds and when will we find life I think actually in probably the next decade we find probably past life probably the evidence of past life on Mars let's say you think there was pretty like once life on Mars or do you think there's currently I'm more comfortable saying about 3.5 billion years ago feel pretty confident there was life on Mars just because then it had an electromagnetic shield it had an atmosphere has wonderful gravity level three 3s jeez fantastic you know you're all super human we can all slam dunk a basketball I mean it's gonna be fun to play sports on Mars but so I think we'll find past that no fossilize probably the evidence of past life on Mars currently that's again we need the next decade but the evidence is mounting for sure we do have the organics we're finding organics we have water seasonal water on Mars we used to just know about the ice caps you know north and south pole now we have seasonal water we do have the building blocks for life on Mars we really need to dig down into the soil because everything on the top surface is radiated but once we find down will we see any any life form so we see any bugs I leave it open as a possibility but I feel pretty certain that past life or you know fossilized life forms will find and then we have to get to all these ocean worlds these these beautiful moons of other other planets since we know they have water and we're looking for since simple search for life or follow the water you know carbon-based life that's the only life we know there could be other life forms that we don't know about but it was hard to search for them because we don't know so in our search for life in the solar system it's definitely you know search you know let's follow the water and look for the building blocks of life do you think in the next decade we might see hints of past life or even currently I think so I'm pretty active you humans have to be involved or can this be robots and Rovers and probably teams I mean we've been at it on Mars in particularly 50 years we've been exploring Mars for 50 years great day that right our images of Mars today are phenomenal now we know how Mars lost its atmosphere you know we're starting to know because of the lack of the electromagnetic shield we know about the water in Mars so we've been studying 50 years with our robots we still haven't found it so I think once we have a human mission there we just accelerate things it's always humans and our Rovers and robots together but we just have to think that 50 years we've been looking at Mars Mars and taking images and doing the best science that we can people need to realise Mars this really far away it's really hard to get to you know this is extreme extreme exploration we mentioned Magellan first or all of the wonderful explorers and sailors of the past which kind of are lots of my inspiration for exploration Mars is a different ballgame I mean no sir eight months to get there year and a half to get home I mean it's really extreme environment in all kinds of ways but the kind of organism might be able to see himself on Mars or kind of microorganisms perhaps yeah I remember that humans were canal you know we're hosts right we're hosts all of our bacteria and viruses right do you think it's a big leap from the viruses in the bacteria to us humans put another way do you think on all those moons beautiful wet moons that you mentioned you think there's intelligent life out there I hope so I mean that's that's the hope but you know we don't have the scientific evidence for that now I think all the evidence we have in terms of life existing is much more compelling again because we have the building blocks of life now when that life turns into intelligence that's a big unknown if we ever meet do you think we would be able to find a common language I hope so we haven't met yet it's just so far I mean do physics just play a role here look at all these exoplanets 6000 exoplanets I mean even the couple dozen earth-like planets or exoplanets that really look like habitable planets these are very earth-like they look like they have all the building blocks I can't wait to get there the only thing is they're 10 to 100 light years away so scientifically we know they're there we know that they're habitable they have you know everything going from right you know we call the Goldilocks zone not too hot not too cold just perfect for how habitability for life but now the reality is if they're ten at the best to a hundred to thousands of light-years away so what's out there but I just can't think that we're not the only ones so absolutely life life in the universe probably intelligent life as well do you think there needs to be fundamental revolutions and how we the tools we use to travel through space in order for us to venture outside of our solar system or do you think the the ways the Rockets the ideas we have now the engineering ideas we have now will be enough to venture out well it's a good question right now yokas can speed of light is it is it is the limit we don't have a warp speed warp drive to explore our solar system to get to Mars to explore all the planets then we need a technology push but technology push here is just advanced propulsion would be great I could get humans to Mars and say you know three to four months not eight months I mean have the time 50% reduction that's great in terms of safety and wellness of the orbital my County but physics rules in orbital mechanics we can't defy physics I love that so the new physics I mean look at quantum you know look at quantum theories so you never know exactly I mean we are always learning so we definitely don't know all the physics that exists too but where we still have to it's not science fiction you know we still have to pay attention to physics in terms of our speed of travel for space flight so you were the deputy administrator of NASA during the Obama administration there's a current Artemis program that's what kind of cooed mission to the moon and then perhaps the Mars what are you excited about there what are your thoughts on this program what are the biggest challenges do you think of getting to the moon of landing to the moon once again and then the big step to Mars well I love you know the moon program now Artemis we it is definitely we've been in low-earth orbit I love low Earth orbit too but I just always look at those three phases so Laura Thoren where we've been 40 years so definitely time to get back to deep space time to get to the moon there's so much to do on the moon I hope we don't get stuck on the moon for 50 years I really want to get to the moon spent the next decade first with the lander then humans there's just a lot to explore but to me is a big technology push it's only three days away so the moon is definitely the right place so we kind of buy down our technology we invest in specifically habitats life support systems so we need suits we really need to understand really how to live off planet we've been off planet and low Earth orbit but still that's only you know 400 kilometers up 20 or 50 miles right so we get to the moon is really is a great proving ground for the technologies and now we're in deep space radiation becomes a huge issue can to keep our astronauts well alive and I look at all of that investment for moon moon exploration to the ultimate goal you know the horizon goals we call it to get people to Mars but we just don't go to Mars tomorrow right we really need a decade on the moon I think investing in the technologies learning making sure the astronauts are their health you know they're safe and well and also learning so much institute research you know utilization is are you in situ resource utilization is huge when it comes to exploration for the moon and Marceau was need a testbed and to me it really is a lunar testbed and then we use those same investments to think about getting people to Mars in the 2030s so developing sort of a platform of all the kind of research tools of all the what's the resource you know the can you speak to that yeah so is are you for the moon it's will go to the South Pole and fascinating we have images of it of course we know there's permanently shaded areas and Shackleton crater and there's areas that are permanently in the Sun well it seems that there's a lot of water ice you know water that's in trapped in ice and the lunar craters that's the first place you go why because it's water and when you want to try to it could be fuel you know life-support systems so you kind of get in you go where the water is and so when the moon is kind of for resources utilization but to learn how to it can we make the fuels out of the resources that are on the moon we have to think about 3d printing right you don't get to bring all this mass with you you have to learn how to literally live off the land we need a pressure shell we need to have an atmosphere for people to to live in so all of that is going to bind down the technology doing the investigation doing the science what are the basically the lunar volatiles you know what is that ice on the moon how much of it is there what are the resources look like to me that helps us that's just the next step in getting humans to Mars and it's cheaper and more effective to sort of develop some of these difficult challenges like solve some of these challenges practice develop test and so on on the moon absolutely so Mars absolutely people are gonna love to get to the moon you get to you have a beautiful earth rise I mean you have the most magnificent view of Earth being off planet so it just makes sense I think we're gonna have thousands lots of people hopefully tens of thousands in low-earth orbit because Laura Thoren it's a beautiful place to go and look down on the earth but people want to return home I think that the lunar explorers will also want to do round trips and you know beyond beyond the moon three-day trip explore do science also because the lunar day is 14 days in a lunar Nights also 14 days so in that 28-day cycle half of it is in light half of us in dark so people would probably want to do you know a couple week trips month long trips not longer than that what I mean by people what do you think explorers yeah astronauts are gonna be civilians in the future too not all not all astronauts are gonna be government astronauts actually when I was at NASA we changed we actually got the law changed to recognize astronauts that are not only government employees you know NASA astronauts or European Space Agency astronaut or Russian space agency that astronauts because of the big push we put in the private sector that astronauts essentially you're gonna be astronauts you get over a hundred kilometres up and I think once you've done orbital orbital flight then you're an astronaut so a lot of private citizens are going to become astronauts do you think one day you might step foot on the moon Mars I'm gonna it's my life's work to get the next generation to Mars that's that's that's you are even younger than you you know my students generation yes will be the Martian explorers I'm just working to facilitate that but that's not gonna be me hey the moon is pretty good and it's a lot tough I mean it's still a really tough mission it is an extreme mission exactly it's great for exploration but doable but again before Apollo we didn't think getting humans to the moon was even possible so we kind of made that possible but we need to go back we absolutely need to go back we're investing in the heavy lift launch capabilities that we need to get there we haven't had that you know since the Apollo days since since Saturn five so now we have three options on the board that's what's so fantastic NASA has its you know Space Launch System SpaceX is gonna have its it's heavy capability and Blue Origin is coming along too with heavy lifts so that's pretty fantastic from where I said I'm the Apollo program professor today I have zero heavy lift launch capability I can't wait just in a few years we'll have three different heavy lift launch capabilities so that's pretty exciting you know your heart is perhaps with NASA but you mentioned SpaceX and Blue Origin what are your what are your thoughts of SpaceX and the innovative efforts they're from the sort of private company aspect oh they're great they're mine remember that the investments in SpaceX is government funding it's NASA funding is US Air Force funding just as it should be because you're bettin on a company who is moving fast has some new technology development so I love it so when as it really was under our public-private partnerships so necessarily the government needs to fund these these startups now SpaceX is no longer a start-up but you know it's been at it for for ten years this has some axis learned a lot of lessons but it's great because it's the way you move faster and also some private industry folks and businesses will take a lot more risk that's also really important for the government what do you think about that culture of risk I mean sort of NASA and the government are exceptionally good at delivering sort of safe like there's a little bit more of a culture of caution and safety and sort of this kind of solid engineering and I think SpaceX wall has the same kind of stuff it has a little bit more of that startup feel where they take the bigger risk is that exciting for you to see seeing bigger risks in this case absolutely and the best scenario is both of them working together because there's really important lessons learned especially when you talk about human spaceflight safety quality assurance these things are the utmost importance but both aviation and space you know when human lives are at stake on the other hand government agencies NASA it can be European Space Agency you name it they become very bureaucratic pretty risk-averse move pretty slowly so I think the best is when you you combine the partnerships from both sides industry necessarily has to push the government take some more risks you know I got me they're smart risk or actually gave an award at NASA for failing smart I love that you've seen kind of break up when the cultures say no that they don't look Apollo that was a huge risk it was done well yeah so there's always a culture of safety quality assurance you know engineering you know edit at its best but on the other hand you want to get things done and you have to also get them you have to bring the cost down you know for when it comes to launch we really have to bring the cost down and get the frequency up and so that's what the newcomers are doing they're really pushing that so it's about the most exciting time I can imagine for for spaceflight again a little bit it really is the democratization of spaceflight opening it up not just because the launch capability but the science we can do on a CubeSat what you can do now for very those used to be you know student projects that we would go through conceive design implement and think about what a small satellite would be now they're the most you know there's a really advanced instrument science instruments are flying on little team cube sets that pretty much anyone can afford so there's not a there's every nation you know every place in the world can fly a cube set and so that's cube set Oh CubeSat is a this is called one YouYube says we measure in terms of units so you know just in terms of I put my both my hands together that's one unit two units trees so little small satellites so cube sets are for small satellites and we actually go by mass as well you know small satellite might be 100 kilos 200 kilos all well under a thousand kilos cube sets then our the next thing down from small sets you know basically you know kilos a tens of kilos things like that but kind of the building blocks cube sets are fantastic designs kind of modular design so I can take a1 u1 1 unit of CubeSat and you know but what if I have a little bit more money and payload I can fly three of them and just basically put a lot more instruments on it but essentially think about something the size of a shoebox if you will you know that would be a cube set and those how do those help empower you in terms of doing size doing exponents oh right now there's getting back to private industry planet the company is you know flying cube sets and literally looking down on earth and orbiting or taking a picture if you will of Earth every day every 24 hours covering the entire Earth so terms of earth observations in terms of climate change in terms of our changing earth it's revolutionising because they're affordable we can put a whole bunch of them up the telecoms we're all you know on our cell phones and GPS we have our telecoms but those used to be very expensive satellites providing that service now we can fly a whole bunch of modular cube sets so it really is breakthrough in terms of modularity as well as cost reduction so so that's one exciting set of developments is there something else that you've been excited about and like reusable rockets perhaps that you've seen in the last few years yeah well the reusability you had your usability is awesome I mean is the best now we have to remember the shuttle was a reusable vehicle yes which an shuttle is an amazing aerospace engineer I mean the shuttle is still just the most gorgeous elegant extraordinary design of a space vehicle it was reusable it just wasn't affordable but the reusability of it was really critical because we flew it up it did come back so the notion of usability and I think absolutely now what we're doing with we you know a global we but with SpaceX of origin sitting the Rockets up recovering the first stages where if they can regain seventy percent cost savings that's huge and just seeing the control you know the convenient control and dynamics person is just seeing that rocket come back and land oh yeah that's it never gets old it's exciting so it's so cool give me the landing is when I stand up start clapping he's just just the control control I go and hit that landing it's you know it's gymnastics for for a rocket ships better see these guys stick a landing or foot it's just wonderful so every time like I said every time I see ya the reusability and the rockets coming back and landing so precisely it's really exciting so it is it is actually that's a game-changer we are in a new era of lower costs and a lot the higher frequency and it's the world not just NASA it's many nations are really upping their frequency of launches you've done a lot of exciting research design engineering on spacesuits what does the spacesuit of the future look like very tight fitting suit we use them a chemical counter pressure to pressurize right directly on the skin seems that it's technically feasible we're still at the research and development stage we don't have a flight system but technically is feasible so we do a lot of work in the materials you know what materials do we need to pressurize someone what's the patterning we need that's what our patents are in the patterning kind of how we apply this is a third of an atmosphere just to sort of take a step back you have this incredible bio suit wear them it's tight fitting so it allows more mobility and so on so maybe even to take a bigger step back like what are the functions that a space it should perform here so start from the beginning a spacesuit is the world's smallest spacecraft so I really that's the best definition I can give you right now we fly gas pressurized suits but think of developing and designing an entire spacecraft so then you take all those systems and you shrink them around a person provide them with oxygen to breathe scrub out their carbon I know make sure they have pressure they need a pressure environment to live on so really a spacesuit is a shrunken you know spacecraft in its entirety has communications exactly so you really thermal control a little bit of radiation not so much radiation protection but thermal control humidity you know oxygen breeze so all those life support systems as well as the pressure production so it's an engineering marvel you know the spacesuits that have flown because they really are entire spacecraft that a small spacecraft that we have around a person but they're very massive but 140 kilo is the current suit and they're not mobility suits so since we're going back to the Moon and Mars we need a planetary suit we need a mobility suit so that's where we've kind of flipped the design paradigm I study astronauts I study humans in motion and if we can map that motion I want to give you a full flexibility you know move your arms and legs I really want you to be like a Olympic athlete in extreme Explorer I don't want to waste any of your energy so we take it from the human design so I take a look at humans we measure them we model them and then I say okay can I put a spacesuit on them that goes from the skin out so rather than a gas pressurized shrinking that spacecraft around the person so here's how humans perform can I design a spacesuit literally from the skin out that's what we've come up with mechanical counter-pressure some patterning and that way it could be order of magnitude less in terms of the mass and it should provide maximum mobility for moon or mars what's mechanical cano pressure like how the heck can you even begin to create something that's tight-fitting so and still doesn't protect you from the elements and so on and the hold of the pressure thing design channels we've been working on it from so you can either put someone in a balloon that's one way to do it that's conventional that's me that means the balloon doesn't get fresher eyes soon so put someone in a blue it's only a third of an atmosphere to keep someone alive so that's what the current system is so depending on what units you think in 30 kilo Pascal's you know 4.3 pounds per square so much less than the the pressure that's on earth you can still be a human alive with 0.3 and it's alive and happy alive in half India you mix the gases you need here we're we're having this chat and we're both we're at one sea level in Boston it you know one atmosphere but assume nitrogen arsenide you didn't you put a suit if we put someone to a third of an atmosphere so for mechanical counter pressure now so one ways to do it with a balloon and that's what we currently have or you can apply the pressure directly to the skin I only have to give you a third of an atmosphere right now you and I are very happy in one atmosphere so so you know we can so if I put that pressure a third of an atmosphere on you I just have to do it consistently you know across you know all of your body and your limbs and it'll be a gas pressurized helmet doesn't make sense to shrink wrap the head we don't need to there's no benefits of like shrink wrapping have you put on gas pressurized helmet because the helmet then the future of suits you asked me about the helmet just becomes your information portal yes so we'll have augmented reality you'll have all the information you need should have you know the maps that I need I'm on the moon okay well hey smart helmet then show me the map show me the topography hopefully it has the lab embedded too if it has really great cameras maybe I can see with that regolith that's just lunar dust and dirt what's that made of we talked about the water so the helmet then really becomes this information portal is how I see kind of the IT architecture the helmet is really allowing me to you know use all of my modalities of an explorer that I'd like to so cameras voiceover images if it were really good it would kind of be would have lab capabilities as well okay so the pressure comes for the body comes from the mechanical pressure just fascinating now what aspect when I look at BIOS they just the suits you're working on sort of from a fashion perspective they look awesome is that is that a small part of it too oh absolutely because the teams that we work with of course I'm an engineer there's engineering students there's design students there's architects so it really is a very much a multidisciplinary team so sure colors aesthetics materials all those things we pay attention to so it's not just an engineering solution it really is a much more holistic it's a suit it's a suit you're you know so we really have to pay attention to all those things and so that's the design team that we work with and my partner get rowdy you know we were partners in this in terms of he comes from an architect or industrial design background so bringing those skills to bear as well we team up with industry folks who are in athletic performance and designers so it really is a team that brings all those skills together so what role does the spacesuit play in our long-term staying in Mars sort of exploring the doing all the work that astronauts do but also perhaps civilians one day almost like taking steps towards colonization of Mars what world is a spacesuit play there so you always need life-support system pressurized habitat and I like to say we're not going to Mars to sit around you know even if you land and have the lander you're not going there to stay inside that's for darn sure we're going there to search for the evidence of life that's why we're going to Mars so you need a lot of mobility so for me the suit is the best way to give the human mobility we're always so gonna need Rovers we're gonna need robots so for me exploration is always a suite of explorers some people are gonna some of the suite of explorers or humans but many are gonna be robots smart systems things like that but I look at it it's kind of all those capabilities together make the best exploration team so let me ask I loved artificial intelligence and you thought I've also saw that you've enjoyed the movie space obviously 2001 a Space Odyssey let me ask the question about Hal 9000 that makes a few decisions there that prioritizes the mission over the the astronauts do you think from a high philosophical question do you think hell did the right thing prioritizing the mission I think our artificial intelligence will be smarter in the future for a Mars mission it's a great question of is that the reality isn't for a Mars mission you know we need fully autonomous systems we will get humans but they have to be fully autonomous and that's a really important concept because you know there's not going to be a Mission Control on earth you know I'd you know 20-minute time leg there's just no way you're gonna control so fully a ton so people have to be fully autonomous as well but all of our systems as well and so that's that's the big design challenge so that's why we test them out on the moon as well when we have a okay a few seconds you know a three-second time leg you can test him out we have to really get autonomous exploration down you asked me earlier about Magellan and Magellan and his crew they they left right they were autonomous mm-hmm you know they were autonomous they left and they were on their own to figure out that mission then when they hit land they have resources as Institue resource utilization and everything else they brought with them so we have to I think have that mindset for expression again back to the moon it's more the testing ground the proving ground with technologies but when we get to Mars it's so far away that we need fully autonomous systems so I think that's that's where again AI and autonomy come in really robust autonomy things that we don't have today yet so they're on the drawing boards but we really need to test them out because that's that's what we're up against so fully autonomous meaning like self-sufficient there's still a role for the human in that picture do you think there will be a time when AI systems just beyond doing fully autonomous flight control will also help or even take mission decisions like how did that's interesting it depends I mean they're gonna be designed by humans as you mentioned humans are always in the loop I mean we might be on earth we might be in orbit on Mars maybe the systems the Landers down on the surface of Mars but I think we're gonna get we are right now just on earth-based systems you know AI systems that are incredibly capable and you know training them with all the data that we have now you know petabytes of data from Earth what I care about for the autonomy and AI right now how we're applying it and research is to look at earth and look at climate systems I mean that's the it's not for Mars to me today right now AI is to eyes on earth all of our space data compiling that using supercomputers because we have so much information and knowledge and we need to get that into people's hands we need first there's the educational issue with climate and our changing climate then we need to change human behavior that's the biggie so this next decade it's urgent we take care of our own spaceship which is spaceship earth so that's to me where my focus has been for AI systems using whatever is out there kind of imagining also what the future situation is the satellite imagery of Earth of the future if you can hold that in your hands that's gonna be really powerful will that help people accelerate positive change for Earth and for us to live in balance with earth I hope so and kind of start with the ocean systems so oceans to land to air and kind of using all the space data so it's a huge role for artificial telogen to help us analyze I call it curating the data using the data it has a lot - of visualizations as as well do you think and a weird dark question do you think human species can survive if we don't become interplanetary in the next century or a couple of centuries absolutely we can survive I don't think Mars is option B actually I think is all about saving spaceship earth and humanity I simply put you know earth doesn't need us but we really need our you know all humanity needs to live in balance with earth because earth has been here a long time before we ever showed up and it'll be here a long time after it's just a matter of how do we want to live with all living beings you know much more in balance because we need to take care of the earth and right now we're we're not so that's the urgency and I think it is the next decade to try to live much more sustainably live more in balance with earth I think the human species has a great long optimistic future but we have to act it's urgent we you know it we have to change behavior we we have to work we have to realize that we're all in this together it's just one blue bubble it's for Humanity so when I think people realize that we're all astronauts that's the great news is everyone's be an astronaut you birth we're all on we're all astronauts of spaceship earth and okay this is our mission this is our mission to take care of the planet and yet as we explore out from our from our spaceship earth here out into the space what do you think the next 50 hundred 200 years look like for space exploration I'm optimistic so I think that we'll have lots of people thousands of people tens of thousands people who knows maybe millions in low-earth orbit that's just a place that we're gonna have people and actually some industry manufacturing things like that that that dream I hope we realize getting people to the moon so I can envision a lot of people on the moon again it's great place to living or visiting probably visiting and living if you want to most people are gonna want to come back to to earth I think but there'll be some people and it's not such a long it's a good view it's a beautiful view so I think that we will have you know many people on the moon as well I think there'll be some people you told me well you know hundreds of years out so we'll have people will be interplanetary for sure as a species so I think we'll be on the moon I think we'll be on Mars Venus no it's already a runaway greenhouse gas so not a great great place for science you know Jupiter all of in within the solar system great place for all of our scientific probes I don't see so much in terms of human physical presence we'll be exploring them so we we live in our minds there because we're exploring them and going on those journeys but it's really our choice in terms of our decisions of how in balance you know we're gonna be living here on the earth when do you think the first woman first person will step on Mars I asked about Mars Vaughn I'm gonna do everything I can to make sure it happens in the 2030s so I say mid you know 2020 mid 20 you know 2025 2030 five will be on the moon and hopefully with more people than less but first with you know a few astronauts it'll be global international folks but we really need those 10 years I think on the moon and then so by the way later in the decade in the 2030s we will have all the technology and know-how and we need to get that you know human mission to Mars 10 live in exciting times and David thank you so much for leading the way and thank you for talking today thank you my pleasure thanks for listening to this conversation and thank you to our presenting sponsor cash app remember to use 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