Omar Suleiman: Palestine, Gaza, Oct 7, Israel, Resistance, Faith & Islam | Lex Fridman Podcast #411
- You always know when you live in Gaza that it's only a matter of time
before the next bombs drop. You know, if you're in Gaza, that you are waiting for your death. People dream about going out in the world and pursuing education. People dream about going out in the world and pursuing economic opportunity. In Gaza, your idea of
opportunity is an opportunity to see the next year. That has been the case,
and so when we talk about, you know, this not existing in a vacuum, if people only hear about
Gaza on October 7th, that is a major part of the
problem, and that is, again, part of the problem of our
ignorance and our apathy, right? Why is it that the plight
of the people of Gaza is not brought up until an
attack happens on Israel? - The following is a
conversation with imam, Dr. Omar Suleiman, his
second time on the podcast. He is a Palestinian American, a Muslim scholar, a civil rights leader, president of the Yaqeen
Institute for Islamic Research, and is one of the most
influential Muslims in the world. Our previous conversation
was focused on Islam. This time, the focus was
on Gaza and Palestine. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast. To support it, please
check out our sponsors in the description, and now, dear friends, here's Omar Suleiman. What did you think, feel, and pray for in the days that followed October 7th? - I think the first feeling was that there's going to be
a lot of death and destruction in Gaza as a result, right? We always kind of see this,
where one Israeli casualty leads to hundreds of Palestinian
casualties, right? So, it's a pretty familiar
cycle in some ways, where there are daily
transgressions against Palestinians in the West Bank and in Gaza, the checkpoints, the
aggression on Masjid Al-Aqsa, the settlements expanding, the
stories of Palestinian death, and then you have rockets fired from Gaza, and that's when the
Western press catches up and starts to cover it. Israel responds with Hellfire missiles, white phosphorus bombs, and the casualties are
wildly disproportionate. And so I think that, you
know, I wasn't surprised. I prayed for the people that I knew were going to bear
the brunt of this outbreak, but the outbreak was predictable. - You wrote a statement on October 9th. I was hoping to read it, if it's okay. - Yeah, go ahead. - "Our Palestinian casualties
are always your footnotes. The daily humiliation
of occupation ignored. The aggression by settlers
and soldiers alike on holy sites and souls. The annihilation of entire
families that follows. The devastation of whatever scraps remain in the open air prison of Gaza. Unsustainable and inhumane. So if you're waking up to a
sudden interest in the region and want to know what's been happening, dig a bit deeper than two weeks and try to read beyond the headlines of a media that has been
dehumanizing us for decades." - Again, this was not surprising,
this was very predictable. If you've been watching
what's been unfolding before October 7th, 2021, Human Rights Watch
puts out the report, "Threshold reached, Israel
is an apartheid state." Amnesty International 2022,
the crime of apartheid, showing how all of the
legal determinations of apartheid have been reached. The occupation's only
getting more aggressive. Shireen Abu Akleh, a
Palestinian American journalist, is shot dead in 2022
in front of the world. The United States says, initially, that if it is shown that
Israel was complicit or that Israel carried out the execution, then there will be consequences. Of course, once it was shown that Israel was indeed
responsible for the bullet that killed Shireen Abu Akleh, the United States did absolutely nothing. Shireen's funeral was attacked,
the pallbearers were beaten, her casket almost fell, and
again, the world is watching. The aggression against worshipers in Al-Aqsa is getting worse. You have the flag march,
the Jerusalem Flag March, where extremist settlers
are let loose and wild on Palestinians by the thousands, chanting things like, "Mohammed is dead. We're going to murder you,
Arabs," all with the protection of the state, with Israeli soldiers, and throughout this time, it's like, something bad is gonna happen,
and then 2023 comes along. You had 13,000 settler units in 2023, a plan of 13,000 settler
units, the most in the history of the occupation, the most
racist and extremist government, Israeli government that you have ever had, and people don't realize
that in 2023 alone, over 600 Palestinians
had already been killed. It just doesn't make Western headlines, and so if you wonder
why the American public sees this so much differently
than the rest of the world, it's because American media shows the American public
something so much different than what the rest of the world is shown. And so, this was a pressure cooker, this was going to explode,
it is extremely predictable. You've given people absolutely no hope. And so, I think that, as
we're watching that, you know, it's important for us to actually
interrogate the ignorance that people have of
the Palestinian plight, the ignorance of the root
causes of this violence, the ignorance of the occupation, and also ask yourselves,
you know, why is it that Israel can violate every
single international law on the books, have all
these determinations, and the United States keeps on issuing these inconsequential
statements while also, at the same time, funding
these aggressions? So it's like, "Stop the settler violence," the United States will issue
statement after statement, "Stop the settler violence,
stop the incursions on Masjid Al-Aqsa, stop violating
the people in Jerusalem, stop trying to wipe out
the Palestinian people," stop openly saying, you know, that there is no two-state solution, that we will never allow
a Palestinian state to be established, but at the same time, here's your $3 billion check, and if the United Nations
issues any sort of resolution against Israel, or if any
international body tries to hold Israel accountable, the United States stands in
the way of any accountability. It's important for us to ask why, and so I always tell people,
read beyond the headlines. Even now, with the backdrop of a genocide, over 30,000 people have been killed, if you open the front page of most American mainstream sites, you will see stories about the hostages, the Israeli hostages, you will see stories about October 7th, but
October 8th is missing, October 9th is missing,
October 10th is missing, a hundred days of genocide are missing. And you'll barely have a story that shows up every once
in a while that, you know, is still very much so controlled by the Israeli propaganda machine because while Israel kills
Palestinian journalists, it also makes sure that
American journalists are only able to tell a certain story. They're only able to see Gaza
from a certain perspective, they're only able to speak about Gaza from a certain perspective,
and this is well-documented, that they have to review
their media tapes with Israel before they can publicize them, and so this is state
propaganda at this point. The mainstream media and
the United States government are in lockstep, telling
a very skewed story, and that is leading to a
greater sense of frustration, and I think the American
public has been wronged as well by not knowing what's happening. - So you mentioned settlements. So, to you, this is bigger
than Gaza, it is the West Bank, it is the the Palestinian people, broadly. - Absolutely, you can't
disconnect Gaza from Palestine. You can't disconnect the
West Bank from Palestine. You can't disconnect
Jerusalem from Palestine, and you can't disconnect
the very human story from the political plight. You interviewed Mohammed
El-Kurd, you met him. What did the world do
when it saw the images of the Kurd household
being taken over by a guy from Brooklyn or Long
Island who just shows up and lays claim to their home? What did the world do when American settlers suddenly
decided they could walk into historic Palestinian homes and throw people out of their homes? What did the world do? And so, yes, this is
very much so connected to the broader issue of
Palestinian existence. If you realize here,
we are erased in peace, and we are erased in war. In peace, it's the Abraham Accords, agreements between Israel
and its Arab neighbors, which is supposedly to solve
the Palestinian problem. The Palestinians are
absent from their own fate, from discussions about their own fate. In war, it's the Israel-Hamas
War, it's Israel and Gaza. Where are the Palestinian people, the millions of Palestinian people, that have either been
removed from their land or are being tormented on their land? Where are they in this discussion? - What are the Palestinians
in the diaspora feeling? - I think deeply frustrated. A great sense of anger, sadness. Every single Palestinian
right now knows someone that's been killed. Every single Palestinian
is a part of a story of displacement or destruction. Every single Palestinian has a relative that's either missing
a limb or a loved one. Every single Palestinian
in the world is traumatized by this, and in some ways,
being outside of Palestine, being away from it all, hurts even more because you see your people
being killed and starved and brutalized and slaughtered, and you can't do anything about it. And the people around you are
justifying that slaughter. If you turn on a TV, or if you
open a mainstream news site, these sites are justifying your slaughter. And people are being killed over there because they look like me, because they're Palestinian
like I'm Palestinian, and so we're watching this
in diaspora with agony. We can't go, we can't heal our loved ones, we can't comfort the
people that are there. I recently spoke to a doctor
who's lost 75 relatives, 75 relatives in Gaza, and
he's a medical doctor, and all he wants to do is get in there and just use his medical
expertise to help his people, and he can't, and so, we're
watching it from afar, but our hearts are there. They are in the buildings
that are being destroyed, they're in the hospitals
that are being bombed, they are there, and they
are with the people. - You're somebody who's always rushed into the midst of a crisis. So what does it feel
like on a personal level to not be able to do that
here, to go to Gaza to help? - Yeah, it's really hard. I mean, when any group
of people are killed, my instinct, and I think a lot of people, is to go there to help,
whether it's a natural disaster or especially after an incident of terror, wherever it is, right? It's rush there and do
the best that you can to help people get through it. So it's been extremely hard
to watch this from afar and feel like I can't
do anything about it, and so that's why, instead,
I think that most of us are driven to continue to be
the voice of the voiceless. You know, I always say that
if they've made them faceless, they can't make us voiceless. They have reduced our casualties
in Palestine to a number. The number is hundreds a
day, over 30,000 people. We're averaging 10,000 people a month. The fact that they've been
turned into faceless numbers with no stories, with no humanity, makes it that much more important for us to tell their stories here,
and to remind the world that you've lost your humanity
if you can watch this unfold and not even have the decency
to call for a ceasefire. I mean, that's the, that's
where we've reached, that's how low it is right now. Calling for a ceasefire
has now become radical. So we have to remind the
world that if you're okay with the demolition of
an entire town or a city or whatever it is that you wanna call Gaza 'cause it wasn't always the Gaza Strip, but if you're okay with this, and you're okay with this
casualty count every single day, it's not just them who are being killed, it's your hearts that are dying. And I think that when I look back to Dr. Martin Luther King
Jr., and I mentioned this, he wrote about Vietnam. He said that if America was to succumb to its spiritual death, the
autopsy would read Vietnam. I would say that it would read Gaza now. - Speaking of the people,
the faces, the voices, one of the people you've talked
about, you've posted about, you've written about is Wael Al-Dahdouh, him being hospitalized. He's a Palestinian journalist
and the bureau chief of Al Jazeera in Gaza City. What can you tell me about this man? - If Wael Al-Dahdouh wasn't Palestinian, he'd be on the cover of
Time Magazine right now. He would be the most celebrated
journalist in the world. Wael Al-Dahdouh is from Gaza. He has been in Israeli prisons, he has been under Israeli airstrikes, he has seen the worst of the occupation before he's seen the worst
of the genocide while on TV. I mean, and this is insane
when you think about it. We have over a hundred
journalists now, right? That's more than any conflict in history that have been killed, and
there is sufficient evidence by international watchdogs
that this is intentional, that journalists have
been killed intentionally, but then their families,
Wael was reporting on TV when an airstrike hits his wife,
two kids, and a grandchild. He goes to the scene, and he said this, "You know, you never
expect as a journalist to be the subject of the story." Suddenly, the camera's on him
mourning over his dead wife and kids and grandkid, and
he's saying, he even says it in Arabic, he says, "They're
taking it out on our children. They're taking it out on our children." You know, I've heard
this from multiple people that have had relatives targeted that, "I wish it was me instead." He gets back on camera the same day because he feels a
responsibility to continue to cover the lives of the people of Gaza. He understands that his story,
as devastating as it is, is not unique in regards
to the people of Gaza, that there are many people whose families have been
killed in airstrikes. All two million people have
been traumatized in some way. And so he gets back on
camera, tells the story again, and then he is targeted himself. His arm struck, his
cameraman, Samer Abudaqa, dies in front of him. He bleeds out, Wael watches
him bleed out for hours, and while any aid workers try
to reach them in the building that they were in, snipers
would shoot all of those that were rushing to Samer,
so he watches his cameraman and one of his best
friends bleed out to death. Wael goes to the hospital,
his arm is wrapped up, gets treatment, he's back
on camera the next day. A few weeks later, another
child is killed, again, with his friend in a car, so
this was a targeted airstrike. His son is driving, and
his son and his best friend are hit in an airstrike. Wael leads the funeral prayer,
is back on camera again and speaks with such dignity,
with such compassion. You know, one of the things
that always gets to me as a Palestinian, right,
and as a Muslim too, is that we are portrayed to
be these beasts and savages. Tell me a man that would be put through what Wael was put through and
still stand on that pulpit and in front of the
world with such dignity, with such grace, continues
to tell the story. Wael has become a hero to many of us, and he would be a hero in a world that wasn't anti-Palestinian,
and unfortunately, Wael has not only lost his family, he's not only lost much
of his own existence, but Wael is part of the
greater story of erasure. So even though he's telling the
story of the people of Gaza, and he is the story of the people of Gaza, most people will never
learn about Wael Al-Dahdouh. - You have posted videos and
written about what is happening in Gaza since October 7th. What has been happening
there, the individual stories and the broader impact on
the two million people there. - Gaza been described as the world's largest
open-air prison, unemployment, blockaded from all directions, no airport, regular added restrictions placed even on their ability to fish. So every aspect of Gazan life
has been under occupation. I would argue that it's an injustice to even call it an open-air prison because inmates are not
bombed in prisons routinely by the most sophisticated
weapons in the world. Regular bombardment of
Gaza, every single person in Gaza has lived through
multiple rounds of bombardment. It is deeply distressing. You know, I remember, in 2021, there was an image that
I will never forget of children having to go back to school after the bombardment of 2021. And next to them, they
would have the empty chairs and the posters of the child
that used to sit in that chair. I think what encapsulates it most for me, an image that I grew up with was the image of Mohammed al-Durrah, who
was in his father's lap over 20 years ago, and
his father was begging for Israel to spare his child, and Mohammed was murdered in his lap. And you know what
happened this last round? His other kids were murdered. So Mohammed's brothers were murdered, and his father's been on the run. Every single person in Gaza
has witnessed multiple wars, has witnessed the greatest
suffocation of occupation, has even had their diets restricted, and has suffered under
Israel state policy, which is called "mowing the lawn." And everyone should look this up. This is what Israeli ministers refer to as routine bombardment of
Gaza, "mowing the lawn," which shows you that before
they called us animals, they considered us insects. And unfortunately, the casualty counts get higher and higher every time, and people become more and more desperate, more and more helpless. Gaza has been, unfortunately,
the worst manifestation of anti-Palestinian bigotry. It's already, I mean,
60% of the population is a refugee population. What that means, and people
do need to understand this, is that people move to
Gaza from other parts of occupied territory to find refuge, and were practically living
on top of each other. There are people that
are in the Gaza Strip that know that they had homes right beyond that apartheid wall, and those homes were stolen from them, and they can't even enter
that territory anymore. And they know that on the
other side of that wall, there's life, on the
other side of that wall, there's opportunity, on the
other side of that wall, you have a passport, you have an airport, you have the ability to travel, you have the ability to export and import. You can dream, but behind that wall, you are to live until the next airstrike, you are to live until
Israel mows the lawn again and hope that you're
not part of the grass. That's what Gaza has
been all of these years. - So pragmatically and psychologically, it's very difficult to flourish when you're just waiting
for more bombardment. - 'Cause you know that
it's around the corner. You always know, when you live in Gaza, that it's only a matter of time
before the next bombs drop. You know, if you're in Gaza, that you are waiting for your death. People dream about going out in the world and pursuing education. People dream about going out in the world and pursuing economic opportunity. In Gaza, your idea of opportunity is an opportunity to see the next year. That has been the case. And so when we talk about, you know, this not existing in a vacuum, if people only hear about
Gaza on October 7th, that is a major part of the problem. And that is, again, part of the problem of our ignorance and our apathy, right? Why is it that the plight
of the people of Gaza is not brought up until an
attack happens on Israel? - I've gotten a chance to
witness a destroyed school in Ukraine. That's something that is
really difficult to see. - You have over a hundred
destroyed mosques. Every university in Gaza
has been demolished. We're seeing TikTok videos
of Israeli soldiers laughing and singing as they press a button, and we see the demolition of every single university in Gaza. Schools have been reduced to rubble. There's a cultural genocide as well. And I want you to think about
what you saw in Ukraine. Look, imagine coming
back to school in Gaza, in some destroyed building. You're missing legs, you're missing arms, you have white phosphorus burns. Have you ever seen what white
phosphorus does to a person? There's a reason why it's a war crime. You have white phosphorus
burns, your mom's dead, your dad's dead, all of your
uncles and aunts are dead, all of your siblings are dead. Somehow you got pulled out of the rubble. You know, in my own family,
my father's in-laws, my father remarried after
my mother passed away, and they're in Gaza. All of them were killed in an airstrike except for an elderly aunt who somehow made it out
of the rubble a day later. If you're a child that's been
pulled out of the rubble, what are you gonna grow up with? I mean, what are you supposed to feel? What are you supposed to think? And then you have, you
know, racist commentators that say they could have
turned that into a Singapore. You know, the Palestinians are the authors of their own destruction
because if they wanted to, they could have turned this
into a place of prosperity, but they keep on bringing
destruction upon themselves. So at the root of this
is a bigotry, and again, this idea that Palestinians
are savages, they're animals, and the only way to deal with them is to continuously mow the lawn while simultaneously
expanding the occupation and erasing anything that
was ever called Palestine and any human being that was
ever called a Palestinian. - So those kids growing
up in Gaza now, to you, they have almost no choice
but to have hatred for Israel? - It's human. I mean, look, any child
that is under that type of oppression is going
to hate their oppressor. I don't care who you are,
I don't care what you are, but here's my problem with
how that gets brought up. You're talking about the future
of the security of Israel. Even some people that speak about it, seemingly from a place
of being well-meaning, that say the only way that
Israel can have its security is to stop killing Palestinians. And so the future of Israel depends upon Palestinians not
hating Israel so much. And so we've gotta stop
tormenting these people so that they don't grow
up to want to torment us. You've already decided then whose life is worth more than the other. And so, instead of
talking about the future of Israeli lives, why don't
you talk about the present of Palestinian lives? Instead of talking about
whether or not your state will be secure in the future, talk to me about why you're killing children now. Two-thirds of the 30,000
civilians are women and children. And so, we can't talk
about what these children are going to grow up with. We should talk about whether
or not these children are going to grow up in the first place. And that should be what dominates
our conscience right now and what drives our policies and what drives our emotions right now. - So when I had a conversation
with Elon Musk, he suggested that what Israel should do is
conspicuous acts of kindness. So do as much positive
things in Gaza as possible, on a basic individual human level and at a policy level, at every level. What do you think about that? - I mean, you don't pass out
candy in a concentration camp, you end the occupation. And so there has to be a solution that is beyond merely acts of kindness. At the end of the day, if
you're occupying a people, you have to remove that occupation. Apartheid is not dealt
with by acts of kindness on the part of the occupying power. Apartheid is dealt with
by ending apartheid. And so there has to be a
level of accountability. It's not just acts of kindness, it's not just treating the
people with more dignity. It's giving them the ability
to pursue their own dignity. There's a reason why it's called Palestinian self-determination. The United States likes to use it in all of its inconsequential statements, that we need Palestinian
self-determination too, but the United States also
voted against 138 states in the United Nations to allow for Palestinian self-determination. Self-determination means I
get to pursue my own course of worth, I get to
pursue my own happiness, I don't have to depend on the
benevolence of my occupier. And when my occupier feels like, you know, throwing me a few more
crumbs, it has to end. There has to be a point
now where the world says, "This is not sustainable." It's not just about ending
the present genocide. A ceasefire is the bare minimum. I think any decent human being would be calling for
a ceasefire right now, but at some point, you cease occupation, you cease apartheid because
what led to the ability of Israel to carry out a genocide
without any accountability was that the global arena
has permitted it to do so, largely due to American
obstruction of justice. - Is violence an effective
method of resistance? - So, the framework that I would propose is that Dr. King mentioned
that peace is not the absence of violence, it's the presence of justice. And so occupation and
apartheid are violent, even in their most
benevolent manifestations. The default of occupation
is that it is unjustified. The default of apartheid
is that it is unjustified, and it must be dealt with. The default of resistance
to occupation and apartheid is that it is justified, but
there can be transgressions even in resisting occupation
and apartheid, right? And I come to this from
an Islamic perspective. My moral framework is Islam. The Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, was outraged when he saw a
woman or a child that was dead from the other side, the
side of his persecutors. And so, yes, you know, we
have a saying, as Muslims, that they are not our teachers. Our oppressors are not our teachers, but the concept of
resistance to occupation, it is morally justified, it is justified by international law. Any occupied people have the
right to defend themselves. We talk about Israel's
right to defend itself. Israel is the occupier. Any occupied people, by
international law, have the right to defend themselves, and
any occupation is unjustified and illegal, and so
that's where I start from, that's the point that I come to this with. I think that the problem
is, is that the Palestinians are told, "Find better ways to resist," and then they are demonized when they try to find
any other way to resist. You know, if you go back a few years ago, you had the Great Return March. People in Gaza marched to the wall in what was one of the
most inspiring protests or demonstrations that I had ever seen. Marched to the wall, non-violent protest, and snipers took out their legs. AP actually documented that
Israeli snipers had knee counts, where you had an Israeli
soldier that would say, "I took out 45 knees." They actually had to register
a scroll of knee counts, and so you have all these kids in Gaza walking around without legs now because they were targeted by snipers when they marched to the wall. We're told to find methods
of non-violent resistance, but when we boycott, when we
launched, you know, boycotts around the world in response
to this transgression, in response to this ongoing oppression that the world powers have
shown either the inability or the unwillingness to rein in, we're told that that's anti-Semitic, even though it is based on
the South African method of bringing an end to the
apartheid regime there. So don't respond with violence,
don't respond non-violently, don't protest, don't
try to use people power in the face of global impotence
at the political level. Instead, let's just keep talking about the two-state solution, and while talking about
the two-state solution, if you were to look at a map, under every single Israeli
regime, conservative or liberal, whatever it is, the
settlements have expanded, more Palestinian land has disappeared, more Palestinians have been dispossessed, more Palestinians have been killed. And so we have these little pieces of land that keep on shrinking, and
Jerusalem keeps disappearing, and there's aggression, whether Palestinians are resisting or not, but then we're told, "Why can't you people just pursue peace? Why can't you just
believe in a better way?" All along, we're hearing Israeli ministers become far more radical and
open about their intentions to wipe us off the face of the earth. And that is actually their policy. It's not just slogans,
it's not fringe elements. Actual Israeli ministers, starting from the prime minister himself, who has executed a policy of the removal of all Palestinian lands
and Palestinian lives. And then we're told, "Peace,
peace, peace, peace." And it is awfully ugly when
you use the language of peace to suffocate the work of justice. You know, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., one of his early sermons was
something along the lines of when peace is obnoxious,
when peace is obnoxious. It was in the 1950s, around
the Montgomery Bus Boycott, and he talked about how this obsession with the language of peace is usually used to try to keep people in status quo and make them complacent with
their miserable situation. That has been the story
of the Palestinian people, that they've been told that
if you do things differently, then you will find peace, but everything the
Palestinians have tried, inside and outside, has
been met with repression, the most violent forms of
it there in Gaza and beyond. And so, look, I start from the place of wanting to see peace. I want to see a situation in which no innocent
people lose their lives, but we have to analyze the situation with some justice, with some fairness. What would any group of
people do in this situation? That doesn't mean that you hope for hell, that means that you analyze
the existing circumstances of hell, which was life in
Gaza even before October 7th. - That said, you did talk about
Wael Al-Dahdouh and dignity, and you mentioned transgressions. So there is places where
violence can go too far. - Absolutely, so violence,
again, the point is, is that you ask yourself
why we've been silent about the violence all of this time. And you know what? When people say, "Well, what about this? Well, what about that?" My response is this. What I would love to see is
effective international bodies of justice being able
to rein in any party, that has committed an act of aggression or committed an act of injustice,
and hold them accountable. Any reasonable human being
would say, "Yeah, you know what? There should be effective
international bodies that can rein in parties that can't be reined in domestically, that could stop the violence, that could assign blame properly, and then have methods of accountability." The problem is, is that Israel
has been made invincible in the international arena
because of the United States. And then we wonder why there's such a rise in global anti-American sentiment. It's not because of American freedom, it's because America is
directly participating. The United States government
is directly participating in the worst genocide
that we have ever seen in our lives, right? Playing out onscreen, you
know, on social media, and we can't do anything about it. So I think that the point is, is that we need those
international bodies, we need methods of
effective accountability. And I would love to see
blame properly assigned and anyone that kills
any innocent human being taken to account, anyone that is guilty of a
war crime taken to account. We have to ask ourselves, why
is it that Israel has violated over 63 United Nations resolutions, has expanded its occupation, has killed over 600
Palestinians before October 7th, why is it that Israel
cannot be held accountable? And so when you talk about, you know, words that get thrown around,
you know, that are used to justify violence against
more innocent people. You know, when I'm asked about terrorism, is it only terrorism if
it's a non-state actor? If someone's sitting inside
a room, you know, of suits and can press a button and
terrorize thousands of people and murder innocent people
with no consequences, how is that not terrorism? So if terrorism is only to be
assigned to non-state actors, then it's a word without function. In fact, it's a word that
justifies more terror that is then rained upon
innocent populations. We have to have more consistency. Children should not be killed. Non-combatants should not be targeted. We can all agree upon that. Why aren't there proper
investigative bodies and then proper international
bodies of accountability then that can execute their findings in a way that makes the
world a better place, in a way that actually
brings about more peace? And so, you know, I think this
is where we're at right now, and this is the frustration,
and this is the place that the Palestinians have been left. - To you, violence becomes terrorism when women and children,
non-combatants, are killed, no matter who is doing the killing. - Absolutely, absolutely. - In America, for you,
for other Palestinians, other Muslims in your community, what has all of this been like? - It feels like there's a
return to some of the days after 9/11, the dehumanization, the feeling of complete
disregard for our humanity at the level of government,
at the level of media, feeling of an increase in surveillance, the feeling in an increase in bigotry. People are losing their jobs,
and people are being berated on campuses, in grocery stores,
and people are being killed. You know, I went to the
funeral of a six-year-old boy who was killed directly due to
anti-Palestinian propaganda. And so I think that a lot
of us are feeling a return to that, but we also refuse
to be cornered into a position where we are told to perpetually
condemn acts of violence and not speak about the violence that's committed against
us here or abroad. - Can you tell the story of
this boy, Wadea al-Fayoume? He's a six-year-old
Palestinian American boy who was stabbed 26 times in his home in Plainfield Township, Illinois. It was found to be a hate crime
motivated by Islamophobia. And the attacker said,
"You Muslims must die." - So before Wadea was killed, Wadea was killed on a Saturday. It was the immediate
Saturday after October 7th. I remember, on Friday,
media starts to reach out to every imam in the
country, every Muslim leader in the country, and say,
"What are you gonna do about this global day of Jihad? What are you gonna do about
the global day of Jihad?" It's like, "What are you talking about?" It's like, "Well, Hamas has called for a global day of Jihad, so
how are you gonna stop Muslims from attacking people," right? So it's Friday, and I'm like, "Well, this is the first
I'm hearing from you." And I remember responding
to a local reporter. Most people I just ignored. I responded to a local reporter. I said, "I've got people in my community that have already lost 10,
15 relatives at that point. Now it's 20, 30, and
you haven't said a word, and now you're reaching out to me about the potential violence
of Muslims in America? This is great, this is
just like 9/11, right?" What are you gonna do to
restrain you angry Muslims from responding to
what's happening overseas and responding to the call
of a global day of Jihad? Guess what? That night, this man
takes out a military knife and attacks a six-year-old boy, a six-year-old Palestinian boy. By the way, it gets worse the
more details that you know. And I recently had a chance
to go and speak to his mom 'cause she was in the
hospital and I was there for the funeral, so I
had a chance to visit her not too long ago. - And she was attacked also. - She was attacked first. It was actually their landlord. So Hanan, the mother,
was at home with Wadea, six-year-old boy. Landlord comes in, and
with absolutely no emotion, just charges at her, starts with her. She was able to fight him
off, stabbed her, initially, seven or eight times with
a military-grade knife. She fought him off, escaped to call 911, and while she is calling
911, she hears Wadea. Wadea ran up to the man,
calling him Uncle Joe because the landlord, prior to
that, had been kind to them. Used to give Wadea toys. Wadea had an infectious, beautiful smile. Every picture you see of that kid, beautiful, beautiful, beautiful smile. And so Wadea runs up to
him, says, "Uncle Joe." He runs up to him to give him a hug even though he's carrying
a military-great knife with blood on it 'cause
Wadea doesn't believe that harm can come to him from that man. And Hanan didn't think that he
would do anything to her kid, even in that fit of rage. The last thing that she
says she heard was, "Oh no." You know Wadea says, "Oh no." And then he starts to stab him 26 times, says, "You Muslims must die." Usually, in a scene like
that, police are hesitant to classify something as a hate crime. It was classified as a hate
crime the very same day. The thing is, is that who's
complicit in that hate crime? What filled that man's
head for him to believe that he was doing an act of good by murdering a six-year-old
Palestinian boy? And in reality, Uncle Joe was motivated by President Joe Biden, who
repeated a debunked report that there were 40
beheaded Israeli babies. And he said, "I saw 40
beheaded Israeli babies." The White House walked it back afterwards in a statement
that no one reads because it was factually
false, but Uncle Joe heard it and had been binge-watching media about these violent
Palestinians, and suddenly, the propaganda overcame his own humanity and what he knew of that family, and he went in and ruined their lives. And you know, now, you
know, just like any mom, you know, she hasn't moved a thing. His bike is still in
the same place it was. Toys are still in the same place. She's left with this great
void, this great emptiness. If that was the only
crime, it would be enough to wake this country up and say, "Oh no, this is not where we need to go." Oh no, right? The last thing she heard
him say was, "Oh no." If that was it, and I
got the news, by the way, when I was, ironically, at a protest, we were protesting on
Saturday, Downtown Dallas. And I started getting all these texts about what happened in Chicago. Oh no, right? Like, no Muslims attacked anyone. The media was in a frenzy
over the global day of Jihad. I got called by national news outlets and local news outlets, "What
are you gonna do about Muslims that are gonna turn into monsters and start killing people in the streets?" Next thing we know, we have a dead six-year-old
Palestinian boy. Went to his funeral,
and that kind of speaks to the proximity part of things. Yeah, it felt like stepping
into Gaza, right, for a moment. It didn't feel like America,
didn't feel like America. It felt like stepping into Gaza. His casket was wrapped
in a Palestinian flag. There was not just sadness at his funeral, but a deep sense of anger. At the funeral, some of his
family members shouted out, "Joe Biden, you did this,
Joe Biden, you did this." And, you know, I remember, the next day, it was right after the funeral,
looking at the front page of CNN, and the story of Wadea was buried in the last section, and it was right over all
these meaningless ads. And I thought to myself, "That's it." Like if this was an
Arab man, let's be real, let's be honest here, if this
was a Palestinian landlord that stabbed a six-year-old
Jewish boy to death, this would have gotten more attention. It would've been the
front page of the news, and rightfully so,
people would have grieved over the insanity of stabbing
a six-year-old boy 26 times. Wadea became an afterthought
the very next day. And so it's an extension of the bigotry, an extension of the racism, and there's so much
that happens after that. There's the terrible stabbing of a Detroit synagogue
president, Samantha Woll, and it's horrible. She was stabbed in her driveway. Immediately, front page
of all the news outlets, immediately, it's the main
news story, and immediately, the implications are,
"There go the Muslims, the Palestinians have lost their minds. The Muslims have, they are who
we thought they were," right? That's what it is, they are
who we thought they were. They went and they stabbed
a synagogue president. It turned out it wasn't a hate crime, although it was an awful crime. It turned out it wasn't a hate crime. Wadea is an afterthought. I had people reach out to me afterwards, expressing condolences,
and I responded to them, those who have justified
the genocide in Gaza, but that were somehow offering
condolences for Wadea, privately, of course. You know, by the way, if a Muslim would've committed that crime, every single Muslim
leader would've had press in front of their door
to condemn that crime. We would've all been made complicit. Had people reach out to me, say, "I'm sorry about what happened
with Wadea, it's terrible. You know, I saw you at the
funeral, praying for you." My response was, "What's the difference between Wadea and a boy in Gaza? What's the difference
between me and Wadea?" I'm a Palestinian child. My parents made it out of Palestine. I was born in this country. If I didn't have the
opportunity to grow up here and to become the person that I became, you would've been justifying
my murder right now. You would've been okay with my genocide. You would've been giving
the talking points to the press to erase
me, but you feel sorry because Wadea was killed? And I think this is when we say that anti-Palestinian
bigotry is an extension of Islamophobia. If a mosque gets targeted here, people rightfully rush
to protect that mosque, and say, "This is horrible,
and it shouldn't happen." But when you have an Israeli
soldier bombing a mosque and laughing like a maniac on video, and it's going viral on TikTok, and there is no way to rein that in, and you don't have a word
of condemnation about it, in fact, you are standing
in the way of a ceasefire, then you're a hypocrite. There's no way around
it, you are a hypocrite. What's the difference
between a mosque here and a mosque there? What's the difference between
a Palestinian life here and a Palestinian life there? If you're okay with me
being murdered there, don't say that you care
about my life here. And so that hypocrisy has been laid bare. We have said multiple times, "Masks are falling, masks are falling." People that we thought were decent people somehow have found it in
themselves to justify a genocide. There is no shortage, at
this point, of videos. And again, when you, you know,
I could have made the excuse for you maybe in the
first few weeks, you know, that you hadn't seen enough, but with all social media
suppression across all platforms, there isn't a single platform that hasn't suppressed Palestinian voices, with all that suppression,
there are enough videos at this point of children whose
heads have been blown off, of children walking around without limbs, of parents carrying their kids in bags, not body bags, I mean grocery bags 'cause they don't even have
body bags, and screaming out and saying, "Why are you doing this to me? Make it stop." And you come back and
you tell that person, "It's Hamas' fault." Where's your humanity? Where is your sense of decency? Isn't that the logic of
the so-called terrorism that you condemn? Yeah, well, you can wipe
out entire populations. You should have talked to Hamas. It's Hamas' fault. All the kids in the West Bank
all like, where does this end? So what's your, what are your
moral boundaries here, right? So if that's the logic
that you're okay with, then, in that case, when there's
a mass shooter in a school in the United States, just
bomb the whole school. In fact, bomb the whole town if you can't find the
mass shooter, you know? Where does this end for you, right? And so when I say people
have lost their humanity, they're killing us overseas,
but their hearts are dying. People have lost their humanity. They've lost any sense of morality and their moral boundaries,
and being there, and, I mean, participating in
this funeral, it was anger. I'm not used to that,
I'm not used to that. You know, I'm an imam, I pastor to people. I went to Christchurch, and that was the worst
I'd ever seen before, where 50 Muslims were killed
by a white supremacist. And he murdered them
with such callousness, and I remember being at those funerals, and yeah, I mean there was anger, but it was just profound sadness because at least the rest of
the world could all come out in one voice and say, "That's wrong." Now most of the world sees
what's happening in Gaza and says, "This is disgusting." Most of the world sees this
and says, "This is a genocide." But we happen to live in this bubble here, where we're constantly being
told we did this to ourselves. And that's the same logic that led to our initial expulsion, 1948. What was the crime of
those 700,000 Palestinians that were driven out
of their home in 1948? What did they do? They didn't do, they did
not commit the Holocaust, they didn't have a mass
murder of Jews at their hands. What did they do? What crime were they paying for? And so it's been the consistent theme. This is the story of our
people, not since October 7th. This is the story of our
people for the last 75 years. - There is a deep geopolitical connection between the United States
and that part of the world. What is the role of US
politicians in all of this? - You know, James Baldwin wrote
about how Israel was created as an extension of United States policy to be a colonial entity at
the gates of the Middle East. And to function essentially
as a military base out there and as a means of extending
its policy, you know, throughout the Middle East,
and it has functioned as such. The United States is not
an honest peace broker. It never has been an honest peace broker. The United States has never
shown any meaningful inclination towards peace, has guarded
and protected Israel from international accountability, has made Israel invincible. The United States is not just responsible at the governmental
level for the genocide, it's responsible for
letting it get to this point in the first place. We have funded that arsenal. We've given them the most
sophisticated weapons in the world to test on the most desperate
population in the world. We've given them the weapons. It's been bipartisan. We have issued, at most,
inconsequential statements of condemnation, but at the same time, stopped any international body of law from actually holding it accountable. So the United States, at
this point, unfortunately, has rightfully lost all credibility. It should remove itself from this because it is not an honest peace broker. I think Americans are probably
sick of us paying for wars in general. I think Americans are probably sick of our tax dollars going
to funding a genocide. While we have a rise of homelessness and income disparity here
in the United States, I think that Americans
probably don't like that. We're making ourselves so
deeply unpopular in the world because of Israel's actions. So in the immediate
moment, make this stop. The United States could
have had a ceasefire a long time ago. The United States could have
ended this genocide right away. The reason why this is continuing is because of US foreign
policy, and in the process of Joe Biden talking
about managing this crisis and talking about making things better, there have only been more bills that have come out of Congress. In fact, he's bypassed
Congress to fund the arsenal, to keep replenishing the arsenal. Stop paying for weapons, stop paying for someone else's war crimes, stop protecting another country as it commits these war crimes. And if you can't be an
honest peace broker, get out of the process. - So there's money that you
just mentioned and bills, and then there's rhetoric,
which you also criticized, that he spoke about the beheaded babies and things of that nature. So where has Joe Biden fallen short? - Yeah, we need another podcast. That's gonna take a few hours to talk about where Joe Biden has failed. For one, the first time he seemed to find the word Palestinian
in his vocabulary was when he accused the Palestinians of lying about the death toll in Gaza, and then that turned out to also be false. In fact, the numbers that were coming out of the Gaza Health Ministry, according to multiple
international bodies, have been under-reporting
Palestinian casualty counts. Israeli intelligence has
said that the civilian count or the death toll is actually higher than what's been coming out
of the Gaza Health Ministry, so he's failed on that front. He has failed to speak
to Palestinian humanity. He has spoken with deep
passion and concern, as has Antony Blinken, about, you know, the devastation in Israel and the way that people
are feeling in Israel, and has shown nothing of that
sort towards Palestinians. We don't want the rhetoric, we really don't want the rhetoric. You know, when people say,
"Call for a ceasefire," the United States has had an opportunity and has an opportunity to really walk back and reflect on its entire
policy towards Israel-Palestine. This is a moment of reflection. This is a moment of restoration
if you want it to be, right? And to think about what we've
enabled in the first place. He's shown absolutely no real empathy. And I think that he is
under great delusion in thinking that the Muslim community or people of conscience
are gonna forgive this, are gonna forget this come November. You can't tell us that. Well, at least I don't
have the Trump Muslim ban while also carrying out a
genocide primarily against Muslims and think that the Muslims
are still gonna vote for you. And so we will make him
hear us at the polls, and any politician, for
Congress or otherwise, that has not called for a ceasefire, that has been a part
of this dehumanization, we will make sure that
we see support for them in any way as a community. It's only right. - So Biden has lost or is losing
the hearts and the support of the Muslim, Palestinian people and the Muslim people in America. - I don't know if he ever had the hearts of the Muslim community,
to be honest with you. I mean, I personally was
never a Joe Biden fan. I think a lot of people felt the same. You know, this country
unfortunately leads to the, the way that our political system is built is that you're always
voting for the lesser of the two evils. That's always the way that it is. It's analyzing which evil is lesser, right?
- Yeah. - And when people say, "If
you vote for Donald Trump," and I'm not planning to vote
for Donald Trump either, but if you don't vote
for Joe Biden, right, if you don't vote for Joe Biden, right, then you are destroying democracy. I'm like, a democracy
that's given us a choice between Donald Trump and Joe Biden is already a failed democracy. And so, he never had the hearts and minds of the Muslim community. People always saw past his rhetoric. He always has had a terrible
disposition towards Palestine. He's always had a terrible disposition towards the Muslim world. You know, his segregationist
past comes out sometimes when he starts talking
about the Muslim world, and you can hear the racism in his voice, and you can hear the way that he talks about Palestinian life
in such devalued fashion. So he lost us a long time ago, but he's definitely not
getting us back after this in any way, and I can't
speak for all Muslims, but I think that come November, he and all of those politicians,
especially in swing states that have turned their backs
on the Muslim community, and not just the Muslim
community, by the way. 67% of this country wants a ceasefire. Three-fourths of Democratic
voters want a ceasefire. Half of Republican voters
want a ceasefire, right? It's not just the Muslim community. This is not some radical
opinion to call for a ceasefire. And every single politician
that has refused to hear us is going to pay a price at
the polls, as they should. That doesn't mean that
we're under any illusion that the other side
promises us anything better. In fact, it feels like
Republicans have simply rushed to out-racist the
Democrats, to outpace them in terms of talking about how they're going to be more unapologetic in supporting Israel
unconditionally, right? Like it's been pathetic,
but something has to change, and I think that Americans
of conscience have to look at how this failed political
system has hurt people here and abroad, and talk about
how to transcend that with just more humanity. Again, when you have 67%
of the American public that wants a ceasefire, but
only a handful of congressmen, out of over 500, can muster up the courage in the face of these super
PACs to say that, you know, "We should stop the genocide," right? And it's like, what are
you asking for here? You're asking for the genocide to stop. You're asking for Israeli
hostages to be brought home. You're asking for Palestinian
prisoners to be released. You're asking for peace and
to start carving the path out to end this once and for all, right? In the most ambiguous way possible, by the way, because there aren't many radical American politicians, right? It's the way that the system is. In the most ambiguous, bare way possible, and you can't even bring
yourself to do that. This is already a failed democracy then. All the while, again, you know,
it always boggles my mind, if you're from the America First crew, what's America First about? Funneling billions and billions
and billions of dollars to Israel while it
carries out this genocide while people are starving here. And if you're part of
the human rights crew and, you know, progressive
crew, it's, you know, they have a term called
"Progressive except Palestine," right, PEP, "Progressive
except Palestine." Where are all your
notions of social justice? You talk about policing here, but you don't talk about who
trains our police departments in many major cities and
the type of brutality that's being carried out there. You talk about human
rights at the border here, but you don't talk about
the assault on people at the border there. You talk about all of these things here, but you somehow use
the exact same framings against the people there. So it's exposed, I think,
the moral bankruptcy of both political polar
opposites that exist in this country right now, and hopefully, evoked a greater societal
sentiment to say, "This is ridiculous." You know, one of the
things that is happening is that more people are getting their news outside of legacy media outlets. You can't hide that many
dead babies anymore. You just can't. More people have woken up to
the Palestinian plight now than ever before. More people are outraged that this has been our
American foreign policy all throughout, you know, Democratic and Republican administrations. This is what we've been paying for? This is what we've been excusing? And Israeli leaders
literally spit in the faces of whoever the American
president is, and says, "Yeah, we don't care
what they tell us to do." You know, American leadership
says we're pushing Israel to minimize the casualties
to get less indiscriminate with its bombing, to manage the crisis, get a few more humanitarian corridors in, to make sure that that
Gaza is not evacuated and not ethnically cleansed, to make sure Palestinians can come back. And Netanyahu comes on TV and says, "From the river to the sea." How ironic is that? From the river to the sea,
and that is his policy. We're going to make sure
that Israel controls from the river to the sea, and we're going to push
Palestinians into Sinai, and Muslim countries need to take them in. You have Israeli ministers,
national defense ministers, saying, you know, things openly, right? Like, "We want to thin out the population, i.e., ethnic cleansing,
we want to remove people, and the Muslim world needs to step up and take in these refugees," right? And the American administration, you know, or the American president says, and American secretary
of state says, you know, "We're talking to them,
and we're making sure that that's not gonna happen," and if one of their
ministers says something, Blinken maybe tweets out something about how that's not gonna happen, but then it happens anyway, and then we still write them the checks. So I think most of the American public is probably going to get
sick of this at some point. Just people of decency
and people of conscience are gonna say, "Yeah,
this is not something we wanna a part of anymore." - Do you think there's something
that Donald Trump can do to help move this in the right direction? - Trump's first words were
about how he's gonna be worse on this, right? So he talked about how he's
going to deport people, revoke visas of, you know, students that are part of these
pro-Palestinian rallies. - Also, the focus was on the rallies versus what's going on abroad. - Yeah, but look, we had
a Donald Trump presidency. He moved the embassy to Jerusalem. He was not better on this. Unfortunately, this is
a bipartisan problem. And so, again, we're
under no illusion here. Like we're not looking to
Donald Trump as a savior here, but we are gonna penalize Joe Biden. And that's, you know, I
can't speak for everybody, but I think that that's
where a lot of our minds are at right now. - You spoke at the November 4th
demonstration in Washington, called the Free Palestine March. It had a lot of people, several hundred thousand people there. What do you remember from that experience? - Well, the first thing I remember is that there was no news coverage of it. So 400,000 people march on DC, one of the largest marches in history. It was nowhere to be found
in mainstream media coverage, whereas when the Stand
with Israel rally happened, between the 300,000-strong Palestine rally and the 400,000-strong Palestine rally, there was a Stand with Israel rally, where congressmen were bused from Congress to speak at that rally. Democrats and Republicans
and high-profile celebrities, and it was, you know, live-streamed
across multiple places. I mean, I have to say this, the ICJ, if that wasn't the greatest
display of media bias in the domain of United
States mainstream media, then I don't know what is. They live-streamed the Israeli defense on multiple news outlets, defending itself against the case for genocide, and completely omitted the
South African presentation of the crimes of Israel the day before. So what I remember, first and
foremost, about the protest is that they were nowhere to
be found on mainstream media, which was expected, but
what I also remember, from the actual day of, and from all of the pro-Palestine rallies, is that I have never
seen a more multi-faith, more diverse group of people
consistently coming out for Palestine against the genocide in Gaza that I have this time around, and I think that has been
the experience all around. There has been a
pronounced Jewish presence, Jewish Voice for Peace, IfNotNow, other anti-Zionist Jewish groups, groups that are against the genocide, against the occupation,
former Israeli soldiers even, you know, that have been
showing up at these protests. There's been a pronounced presence from Native American
groups, Indigenous groups, all across the board, right? Christians, Jews, Muslims,
I've never seen more diversity at these rallies than I've
seen this time around, which I think is a sign
of where things are going. And if you look at the
under-35 opinion polls, it's very clear that there's
a generational gap here, that the country is moving
into a more coherent direction and understanding what has
been happening over there. And people from all backgrounds
are standing up to it now. - What do you think about the protests on campus against Israel? - Every protest I've been to
has had the exact same tenor, has had the exact same messaging, but you always have that
idiot or two that shows up with a sign, and no one knows
who that idiot is, ironically. Never comes with anybody else. Always shows up somehow in
the middle of the protest and puts up a sign that says
something completely contrary to the messaging of the protest, then all the cameras
shift towards that guy. I see it every single time,
but the overwhelming tenor of all of these protests
has been consistent. It's been calling for freedom, it's been calling for liberation, it's been calling for an end
to the genocide, a ceasefire, an end to the occupation,
an end to the apartheid. I will tell you what many
people are not seeing. Columbia University, two IDF
soldiers, former IDF soldiers, spraying Palestinian
protestors with skunk water, which is what the IDF uses
on Palestinian protestors and sometimes on worshipers on
their way to Masjid Al-Aqsa, which has multiple health repercussions. And so I was reading about
how one of the students that was sprayed on campus at Columbia, Palestinian student,
you know, has showered, at this point of us doing this podcast, 11 times, cannot get the smell out of her, has suffered all sorts of health issues as a result of being sprayed. Again, people are not
seeing the other side here. People are not seeing what
we've had to deal with at these protests, right? The open bigotry, and I want you to think about this, by the way. People go and serve in
the IDF and then come back to the United States
or the United Kingdom, and they're not stigmatized
for participating in apartheid policies or
participating in a genocide. How am I supposed to
feel as a Palestinian, knowing that this guy right
next to me participated in murdering my relatives in Gaza, right? And has open rein to
say what he wants to say or do what he wants to do. And so, we haven't seen the
other side of that as well, but I'd recommend to anyone
that's talking about, you know, pro-Palestine
protests to actually go see one. If you go to the protests, you
listen to what's being said, and you don't just capture 'em. I mean you got 400,000 people. Don't just go try to find, you're gonna find four stupid people at a protest of 400,000 people, right? Because the protest scene is always messy. But I think that this is a sign
of the outrage and the anger and the frustration
that many students have about being silenced. Again, in the media, in academic settings, professors are losing their jobs, students are having their
faces put on trucks, being doxed, shady watch
lists that get put out. I'm on a few of them as well, and I just don't care anymore, right? But you got these shady watch lists. People are losing their jobs at law firms. They're losing all of
their future opportunities, young Palestinian students,
because of something that they tweeted that's
being taken out of context 10 years ago, right, when
they were 17 years old. It's ridiculous, and so
I think that, you know, we have to listen to the
overwhelming majority of voices of people that are
demonstrating for justice, not demonstrating against anyone, but demonstrating for people. Again, there's a large,
pronounced Jewish presence at every single pro-Palestine march. In fact, if you look at the organizations, the groups that have
taken over Capitol Hill and, you know, train
stations, it's been IfNotNow. "Not in our Name," "Never
Again" means for anyone, right? It's been Jewish groups, many
Jewish anti-occupation groups that have been at the
forefront, and I think that that's where we have to pay attention to the beauty of how diverse this movement for a free Palestine has actually been. - So the average sentiment
is anti-occupation, not anti-Semitic. - It's incredibly lazy, incredibly lazy, to say that anti-Zionism or that anti-occupation is anti-Semitic. First and foremost, the
Palestinians are a Semitic people. That's number one. Number two, look, I'm
proud of my community. My community has stood
against anti-Semitism in this country. The Muslim community has
been at the forefront of condemning anti-Semitism. We have stood in front of synagogues, we have stood with the Jewish community when the Jewish community is attacked. This is about occupation. This is a story of a colonial entity that has driven us out of
our homes and has done so in such a way that has forced
us to try to be the voice of a people that are being
exterminated overseas right now. This is not an anti-Semitic movement. This is a pro-freedom movement. - Do you think the
protests ever go too far? - The protest scene is a
messy scene, and so, again, you're gonna have
sometimes that odd speaker or people get carried
away in their emotions, and yes, sometimes people
chant things or do things that are contrary to the protests. It's pretty unfair when you judge the entire protest movement by some of these incidents
that have happened at protests, and you don't pay attention to
what they're protesting about in the first place, which is a genocide. Right now, everything is secondary to ending a genocide that is ongoing. In the course of this discussion,
it's not an exaggeration to say that at least 30, 40
people would've been killed just over the last few hours because we're averaging 135 to 150 a day. So, everything else is secondary to that. This is where we all need to be right now as people of conscience. How do we stop this because every single day is deeply costly. - Do you think there has
been a rise of anti-Semitism and anti-Muslim hate in the US? - Yeah, I think that's factual. Look, anti-Semitism is
always to be condemned. It's wrong, it's something that, as a Muslim community and
as people of conscience, we have always taken a stand against. Jewish people should not be attacked for being Jewish people
here or anywhere else. Synagogues should be protected,
and if a person is attacked for being Jewish, we
will be the first to go and to stand with them and to
reject that attack on them. And there has been, as I said, an inspiring pronounced Jewish presence in the movement to end the occupation. And so we're being
morally consistent here. As far as the rise in
Islamophobia, it is felt, it's under-reported, and it is, you know, part of the same framing that
has led to the devastation of our people overseas. So there's a rise in Islamophobia, there's a rise in anti-Semitism,
there's a rise in hatred. All of that is true, but there's
also an ongoing genocide, and that should be our
priority, right now, to end. - I think we spoke last
time, about a year ago, how has your view on Benjamin
Netanyahu evolved over time? - Benjamin Netanyahu has committed himself to the erasure of Palestinian
people and Palestinian symbols and Palestinian land
from the very beginning of his political career. This is who he has been. We just haven't been listening to him. He campaigned on bigotry and
racism and on the promise that there would never
be a Palestinian state. He campaigned on the promise
that Gaza would be wiped out. He campaigned by saying, "The Arabs are rushing to the polls. We need to make sure that
they don't infect our policy." He has always been this person, this has always been his policy, he has always indicated that genocide and ethnic cleansing is
where he wants to go. So he's simply manifesting what
his message has always been, and anyone that ignores
that is being disingenuous. You can find statements
from Benjamin Netanyahu in the 80s, 90s, 2000s. You can find him talking about
this prior to October 7th and after October 7th. He's definitely doing this now
to save his political career. I think he wants to drive this
as long as he possibly can because he knows that his
days in office are numbered, but let's also ask ourselves, why is it that Benjamin Netanyahu
was able to rise to power in the first place, right? There's something deeply
troubling about the fact that his messaging ever resonated
and what the prospects are for peace if Benjamin
Netanyahu was able to rise with such pronounced hateful messaging. - So the claim that security of Israel is the primary concern is,
you're saying, a dishonest claim. - I think he's trying to
secure his seat in office. He knows his days are numbered. This is not about Israel,
this isn't about the hostages for him, this isn't about
anything but Benjamin Netanyahu. He is a narcissist, he's a tyrant, he is despised around the world. And I think even amongst Israelis, I think there's a depatriate form. I think the hostages' families
know that he doesn't care about the families or about the hostages, but he's driving a political agenda that doesn't care about people, not Palestinian people or otherwise. However, the problem of the occupation is not Benjamin Netanyahu. The problem of the
occupation is the occupation. Yair Lapid was the progressive,
moderate alternative, and he drove just as bigoted of an agenda against the Palestinian
people as possible, so to the Palestinian
that's living in Gaza or the Palestinian in the
West Bank, whoever's sitting in that seat has meant the
exact same thing to them, but Benjamin Netanyahu
is certainly, I think, the loudest bigot that we have
seen, you know, in that seat. - Do you think Israel has the
right to defend its borders? - I think Israel has a responsibility to protect those that it occupies. I think you have to ask
that question differently. You know, Noura Erakat wrote
a tremendous article on this from a legal perspective. You know, when you talk about
Israel defending itself, Israel is bound to occupation law. This is the problem all along. You know, when John Kerry said,
of course, the US is great, sometimes, at issuing
inconsequential statements, but Israel has to choose
whether or not it wants to be a Jewish or a democratic state, be a Jewish or a democratic
state, but it can't be both. Israel wants to occupy and
deny, and at the same time, not be held to the standards
of being an occupier, but be treated as if
it's some normal state. Those borders were drawn
across occupied land, and have been expanding
into Palestinian territory, and people have been thrown out of their homes systematically
and transgressed upon even in the places that they
fled to, which is Gaza, right? So when you talk about
Israel having a right to defend itself, you should
be talking about Israel's duty to protect everyone under its occupation. Either lift the occupation or protect everyone under your occupation. Where are your borders, right? What is your responsibility? Who are you protecting? And I think that it speaks to the fact that Israeli policy considers
Palestinians to be animals. They say as much, and they do as much. I've spoken about James Baldwin, and James Baldwin talked
about this pious silence surrounding Israel that
we're supposed to pretend like it's just another state, you know? And ignore how it came into
being and what it functions as. And I think that pious
silence has to be broken. You know, I remember Jon Stewart when he had "The Daily
Show" several years ago, and he talked about this
policy of, you know, we have to defend ourselves, and if someone was attacking
your home, what would you do? And the response was, "Well,
why are you forcing people into a closet?" So you force people into
this desperate situation. You drive them out of their
homes, claim their homes, and then say that you're
defending yourself against them. The default is that an
occupied people have a right to defend themselves. The occupier is obligated
to those that they occupy. - Can you speak to this
term, occupation, in Gaza because the people that say
it is not an occupation say that Israeli troops have
been pulled out from there, before October 7th, for many years. - [Omar] Yeah. - And to you, it still
is a de facto occupation. - Israel doesn't get to set
the terms and then define them. It is an occupation according
to any legal standard, international legal standard. Israel controls the movements
of everyone in Gaza. It controls the air and the seas. It controls the ability
to import or export. The people that live in Gaza
and the people that live in the West Bank, the Palestinians, have had their identity stolen from them. So there's the freedom of movement, there is the freedom of thriving, there is self-determination, all of that has been stolen
from the people of Gaza. There's no airport in Gaza. That was destroyed by Israel as well. It is an occupation at every level, and by any meaningful legal determination. - What do you think about
Yemen's Houthi rebels attacking Israel in
response to October 7th, and then the United States
and the UK initiating bombing of multiple targets in
Yemen in response to that? - Yeah, I think that it's clear that the United States cares
more about its shipping lanes than it does about Palestinian lives, and that actually has proved it. Look, I do not support
the Houthis as Houthis or their policies in general, but if you look at what has transpired and what they have said,
they're attacking these ships in response to the occupation
or in response to the genocide and saying that they
will continue to do so to stop business as usual
until a ceasefire is reached. They have not killed anyone, right? They have ceased ships,
they have blocked the lanes, but they have said that
if a ceasefire happens, they will cease their activity. So instead of the United States trying to get a ceasefire through, the United States decided,
"Let's go bomb Yemen too." You know, let's spend
more money on weapons and killing innocent people,
which shows you exactly where our policy always leads
itself to, unfortunately. So I think that most
reasonable people would say that the problem is not with
Yemeni rebels attacking ships. The problem is with Israel attacking innocent Palestinian lives. - You mentioned paying
respects to the legacy of EBJ, Eddie Bernice Johnson, and remembering Palestinian
child prisoners. Can you explain? - So Congresswoman Eddie Bernice Johnson was one of the few co-sponsors of a bill that has been on the floor
of Congress for years, initially sponsored by
Congresswoman Betty McCollum, to penalize Israel for its
detention of child prisoners. Thousands of children
arbitrarily detained, put in military courts,
solitary confinement, and yes, sexual violence,
that's been documented by human rights
organizations, against them, and there have been no repercussions. So I want you to think about this. You know, just the thought of
conditioning aid to Israel, you know, so that it doesn't
indiscriminately bomb entire populations has not
been able to find any home in mainstream American politics for years. Just trying to stop Israel
from picking up children and throwing them into military prisons, where they disappear for decades at times, has not found any thrust in
mainstream American politics, whereas any resolution that is pro-Israel will make it past both
chambers relatively quickly. When people talk about Israeli hostages and then talk about Palestinian prisoners, there's already a problem
with that framing. First of all, all 2.2 million
people in Gaza are hostages. Every Palestinian that lives
under occupation is a hostage, but all of those prisoners
that have been picked up, women, children, innocent people, with absolutely no process of making sure that they're treated right
or given fair trials, or even given a communication
line with their families or with any government to help
them, is absolutely criminal. All of those prisoners are also hostages. And when you already propose this idea that there are Israeli hostages
and Palestinian prisoners, you're already implying
that one group is complicit in their own devastation,
whereas another group has had devastation visited upon them entirely out of their own doing. And so it's important for people to learn about children
prisoners, who are indeed hostages to an apartheid system,
and even what happened during that four-day truce, which all of us hoped would be extended and become permanent, where 150 Palestinian
prisoners were released. Israel just went and picked up another 135 in the West Bank and
threw them in prisons. That's what I mean when I say you're not addressing
the root of the problem. The root of the problem is the occupation. The root of the problem is the apartheid. The root of the problem is the desperation that then drives the creation
of all sorts of circumstances that will only further lead to the devastation of everyone, right? If you don't solve that
problem, and at the root of that problem is the
dehumanization of the Palestinian, because no one is raising alarms for those Palestinian hostages
in Israeli military prisons, no one's putting up their pictures, and no one's talking about who they are and their human stories, and the violence that's been wreaked against
them at every level. So if you don't solve, not
just the root of occupation, but also the dehumanization
that drives the occupation, which is, unfortunately,
so pervasive right now in the discourse, then
you're going to continue to have this gap in how
the world sees the plight of the Palestinians
and how, unfortunately, the American public sees the
problem of the Palestinians. - And to you, big peace agreements like, of the like of Abraham Accords
should include Palestine. - Abraham Accords is
nothing but an agreement in which you slap the name
of Abraham on arms deals. In exchange for countries being able to undertake their own unholy pursuits, they use one of the
holiest names in history and continue to erase the
main victims of this atrocity. And so the Abraham Accords
are an insult to humanity, an insult to the Palestinians, and an insult to the name of Abraham. - But do you think something like that, agreements of that nature, of that scale, could be made that include
the Palestinian people, and that would actually make progress? - If they're honest to the
plight of the Palestinians, if they are honest to the roots
of the problem, absolutely. Look, again, peace is sought, but peace cannot be used to silence. The entire peace process has, you know, been hung over the
Palestinians all of these years while settlements continued to expand and their situation only
continued to get worse. Is Israel really going
to remove the 700,000, 800,000 settlers, right,
and suddenly changes tune on a two-state solution? Benjamin Netanyahu is saying right now, and he's speaking to, unfortunately, what is clearly a majority
of the Israeli public, that there will never
be a Palestinian state. So these peace talks cannot be used to suffocate all of the work of justice and bringing Israel to accountability. The world has to act
when they see apartheid. The world has to act
when they see occupation. If the world fails to bring Israel to a place of accountability, then a few countries that
have their own agendas cannot put forth anything
meaningful for the victims of Israel being the Palestinian people. - There's a lot of
questions I wanna ask you about the nature of resistance, and what is the proper way to resist? What is the practical, pragmatic, effective ways of resisting? So one example that is often
brought up is the difference between MLK and Malcolm X. One emphasized non-violent resistance, the other emphasized
any-means-necessary resistance. Which do you side with, in general and in this particular
case of what has happened over the past a hundred-plus days? - So, in general, that framing
relies on a sanitization of Dr. Martin Luther King
Jr. and a vilification of Malcolm X that a lot of
people do put forth and present as two polar opposites in how
they approached the plight of Black people in America and resisting racism here in America. When I taught a course at
Southern Methodist University on MLK and Malcolm X, and Islam and the civil rights movement, what I'd often do is I'd give
my students a set of quotes, and I would say, "Assign
this to Malcolm or Martin," and they'd always get it wrong, right? So you can find, you know, quotes from MLK and breaking the silence, and especially when he took a
stand against the Vietnam War, that sound so radical, you
know, when you compare them to the image of MLK, and
Malcolm is, of course, turned into this militant, angry Muslim who just wanted violence and was seeking chaos
here in the United States. So let's be clear about something here, that Malcolm never himself
was part of any violence. Malcolm never did anything violent. Malcolm found it hypocritical
to commit the oppressed people to non-violence while not
restraining the oppressor from its violence, and
I agree with Malcolm. It is absolutely hypocritical
to focus your attention and your energy on the oppressed people and committing them to non-violence while not directing your
attention to the oppressor. When you have such asymmetry, when you have a clear
aggressor and aggressed-upon, you have a clear colonial entity and a clear colonized
people, you focus your energy on restraining the colonial power, you focus your energy on
restraining the oppressor, not the oppressed, and so
that was Malcolm's point, and it's clear in his messaging, throughout his religious growth, because, of course, Malcolm
did evolve as a person, but Malcolm found it deeply hypocritical to commit the oppressed to non-violence. Malcolm also had a deep
understanding of the way that brutality here, state
violence in the United States, was connected to its state violence abroad and American imperialism as a whole. Malcolm was the first to speak on Vietnam, the first major African American
leader to speak on Vietnam. Martin followed. Malcolm also went to Gaza in 1964. 1964, went to Khan Yunis, which is now under heavy bombardment, and Malcolm penned an essay on Zionism and connected Zionism
to American imperialism and the broader implications
of America's foreign policy. So Martin and Malcolm, if you look at them in the capacity of what's
happening right now, where I would say you can find something that is deeply profound, James Cone wrote a book
called "Malcolm and Martin, Dreams and Nightmares." And he wrote something
profound to the effect that Martin tried to liberate white people from their own racism,
whereas Malcolm tried to liberate Black people from the effects of that racism on them. And so they both played
a deeply important role. Self-determination is
crucial to maintain the fuel of a movement, and I
think one of the things that probably deeply frustrates those that have sought the erasure of Palestine is that Palestinian
consciousness has only continued to grow after 75 years. Palestinians in diaspora and Palestinians within
occupied territory, all are deeply rooted in
their Palestinian identity and existence, and they're not going away. So I think that that's where
the function is important of this, whereas those that are complicit in the oppression need to be liberated from their own oppression, you know, and liberated from what
they're participating in. Most Americans that I talk to,
that have absolutely no idea about what's going on, when they come to hear just a few stories of the plight of the Palestinian people,
and the types of brutality that we have encountered,
wake up to this and say, "Oh my God, this is what
my tax dollars go to? This is what I'm a part of," right? So we have to liberate
people, across the board, from being oppressors
or from being oppressed. - What do you think about
the seeming fact the majority of Palestinians support
the October 7th attacks? - You have to see the world,
their world through their eyes. You can't try to see their
world through your eyes. If you live under occupation, you're routinely harassed
at Israeli checkpoints, the occupation is expanding
into your territory, you're meeting families,
you know, regularly that have been thrown out of their homes and that are looking for a new place in the shrinking territory, you deal with routine airstrikes, you have no way to get out,
you have no way to grow, you don't even have a passport,
your education is subpar, your standards of living
are lower than the rest of the world, and all you
hear from the other side, which dominates the discourse
and dominates every element of your existence, are
promises of erasure, of complete erasure. 13,000 people I mentioned, 2023, 13,000 new settlement
units being advanced. If that happened anywhere, right, just think about what that means, right? When you clear out a village or two, and it's not that big
of a territory, right? When you know that that's happening, and when you have been subjected to that, anyone that claims to be
supporting you or uplifting you from that state of misery
is going to have sympathy. Whether you agree with their
mission or their methods or not, it's human. It is human that if anyone says that they are going to
get you out of this misery and inflict pain on those who
have given you a life of pain and promised you a future of pain, you're going to have
sympathy to that group, whether you agree with them or not. I think that the question
also has to be asked, what about the Israeli public? Israel holds all of the
power in that region, holds all of the power
over that territory, is able to dominate the
expansion of its own territory and diminish any Palestinian territory, is able to place restrictions whenever it wants on Palestinian movement, trying to get to their
holy sites or otherwise, whether it's Masjid Al-Aqsa
or the Holy Sepulcher or the Church of Nativity, right? The majority of these Israeli
public, before October 7th, unfortunately, according to all polls, favors a non-democratic regime, the end of a two-state solution, does not care about the
plight of Palestinian people, the majority of the Israeli public. Why is that, and what does that mean for Palestinians, right? Especially now, after this
genocide, the vast majority of the Israeli public does
not favor a ceasefire, right? What are we supposed to do when we see mainstream
media coming out of Israel, pop culture, TikTok videos that only speak to a greater desire to eliminate the
Palestinian people, right? So anyone that says that they are going to
support your plight, whether you agree with their
mission or their methods, is going to resonate with
that child that has grown up in those desperate circumstances. You know, Bassem Yousef had an
interview with Piers Morgan, and he was talking about this. I mean, just, he literally
gave it a human story. If you're a child that's
grown up, you've lost limbs, your parents are dead,
your friends are dead, you have been made a refugee
two or three times already, you have no future in sight,
and then someone comes to you and says, "I'm going to help you, and I'm gonna fight back on your behalf," of course, it's gonna resonate. It's human, right? And so, I think that it's important for us to see the world through their eyes, rather than try to see the
world through our eyes. - So as Malcolm X did, you're calling for highlighting the asymmetry in violence and asymmetry in moral reasoning. - Absolutely. It's important. You're not going to be
able to solve this problem unless you're able to do that. And so when Malcolm said that, "If you stick a knife
nine inches into my back and pull it out six inches,
that's not progress." Progress is healing the wounds, and you're not even willing to acknowledge that the knife is there yet. Those that don't acknowledge
what is determined now by any international
human rights organization, even Israeli human rights
organization, B'Tselem and others, to be apartheid, a state of apartheid and a state of occupation,
and now an unfolding genocide, you know, are not partners for peace. - It just hurts me to think
how long it takes to heal. Even if the healing begins
now with a knife metaphor, it's just going to be generations because people don't forget. When your father and mother were murdered, or somebody that you know
in your family was killed, they don't forget. - Look, I think the point
is, is that we have to come to terms with the fact that the trauma of the past does not justify
the murder of the present, and the fear of the future
does not justify the murder of the present. The urgency of the world right now should be entirely focused on ending this atrocity
that, unfortunately, the world has become so complacent with. Again, prior to October
7th, this status quo was not acceptable, and
there was no means in sight in the global arena to rein this in, to make Israel more
accountable, to stop this. I do believe in the power of healing, I do believe in the power of growth, I do believe that we have
seen ugly episodes of history before that have been rectified. I also believe in the heart of my people. I believe that the
Palestinian people are people of resistance, they're
people of resilience, they're people of courage, and
they're people of benevolence and magnanimity, and they
are people who have been made to grow under the worst of circumstances. I don't see, in the hearts
of young Palestinians that have been tormented,
I don't see darkness. I see light, I see the
ability to still laugh and find joy despite
everything that's happened. And so I think that the urgency right now just has to be towards
ensuring that they have a life, that they're not being killed anymore. - I was wondering if you can
comment on a idea and a notion that comes up often in
conversations about this, of why can't other nations in the region take in Palestinian refugees? - So I think that we have
to tackle what's implied by that at multiple levels,
and I actually wanna walk back. You know, I was listening
to Nikki Haley when she said in one of her interviews,
you know, "And why is it that you think no one wants
to take the Palestinians in?" And she had like this deeply
disturbing laugh to it, or Ben Shapiro, when he
said, "Israelis like to build and Arabs like to bomb crap
and live in their sewage," or, you know, why is it that no one wants to govern the Palestinians,
suggesting that Palestinians are ungovernable and not fit
to bring into your countries, and that's why they're being turned away. You know who else faced that bigotry? Jews trying to escape the Holocaust. 1939, 300,000 Germans
applied for refuge here in the United States. I think only about 10,000 were allowed in, and we also turned away ships of Jews that were seeking refuge
here in the United States. On what basis, that they were
a national security threat and could not be trusted,
they could not be taken in. That's the same bigotry
that's driving this. And I want you to think
about it, you know, from that perspective, how
deeply offensive that is when you have millions of
Palestinians in diaspora. Where have Palestinians caused
trouble where they've gone? Everywhere Palestinians are, they have overcome significant
hurdles to become scientists and doctors and to grow
themselves and to grow the places that they're in. Where have Palestinians
that have been displaced all over the world caused
issues for people, right? So it's both racist and
factually incorrect. That's not the right question
that should be asked. The question that should be asked are why are these people
driven from their homes, not why won't other people around them open their homes to them? And so, I'll just share with you that, even on a personal level, you
know, it's really interesting because sometimes on
Twitter or wherever it is, it'll be like, "Go back home," right? Why don't you go back home? And I'm sitting there
thinking to myself like, "Sure, you know, my parents
were driven from their homes." Yeah, sure, I was born in this country as a consequence of bad policy. Now I embrace my complicated
identity in that regard, and I hope to be
productive as an American, but I am a Palestinian, and
Palestinians in diaspora that have been fortunate enough
to have the ability to build and to overcome circumstances
should not be an excuse for eliminating the Palestinians
that remain in their homes under that torment, so
this bigotry is not new. Unfortunately, its manifestation is ugly, and, you know, we have to push back on it whenever it shows itself, no matter who it's being spoken about. - How difficult has it been
for people in Gaza to flee? - I mean, they're blockaded
from all directions. There is nowhere for people in Gaza to go. They cannot get out, and, you know, the reality is, is that
they don't wanna leave. They do not wanna leave. The Palestinian people
want to live in their land and their homes and to
continue to produce, you know, an extension
of the beautiful culture and legacy that was handed to them. They don't wanna leave, in
fact, those that have fled for whatever reason, or
have been able to get out for medical treatment or
because they have some sort of citizenship in other countries,
all they're talking about is going back and rebuilding. You can't bomb Palestine
out of our hearts. You cannot starve Palestine
out of our hearts. I think that's a critical
mistake that Israel is making, and it thinks that if
it destroys Gaza enough, if it wipes out all the buildings, that people will never wanna come back. We don't want to go anywhere
as a Palestinian people, you know, in a way that would
remove us from our homes. - The Palestinian people are proud people. - Yeah, you've met a lot of 'em, right? When you sat with Mohammed El-Kurd, their people in East Jerusalem. What those people have been
subjected to, you know, the harassment, like,
think about the tenacity and the character that it takes to still try to walk back into your home after an intruder has been
brought in by the state that's sitting in your living room, that is pushing you
around, and you're saying, "I'm not leaving my home." This is literally what's been
happening in East Jerusalem, and we're not going anywhere. I think those of us that are in diaspora, Palestine is not leaving our hearts, and those of us that are still there are not leaving their land. And the world has to make the
occupier more accountable, not tell the occupied how to cope. - Do you ever imagine that
if your family did not flee and you were now living in, say, in Gaza, what you would be doing? - I think about what could
have been all the time. You know, I actually mentioned
this in the first DC protest, that I remember getting a
notification, a news notification, just prior to October, with
my name in it, you know, so I always get these
notifications, right? If my name's been mentioned in an article. And so, oh, your name's been
mentioned in an article, and it was a 16-year-old Omar Suleiman who was murdered in the West Bank. He literally had my name. I held up his picture, and I realized that could have been me. So I think of why God
chose me to not be there, and, hopefully, him choosing
all of us that are not there to be for those that are still
there, to be their voices. I'm grateful, and I'm also in pain. I'm grateful for the opportunity to be able to speak on their
behalf, but I'm also guilty that they have to bear the
brunt of this evil hatred that, unfortunately, displaced our parents in the first place. - You mentioned that
Palestinians invoke the plight of Indigenous people,
like Native Americans. What works and doesn't
work about this analogy? - So I think that there's
a powerful connection between the Palestinian
people and the Indigenous in this land and in other
places that have been wronged. We are living here in the
United States on stolen lands that is drenched in the
blood of the Natives, and that was built upon with the blood, sweat, and labor of enslaved Africans that were brought from overseas. It's a great evil that we have
to reckon with constantly. And so I think that's
the power of solidarity, and, you know, if you look in Canada and you look in places like Australia, there has been a refocus on the crimes against the Indigenous of those places. I think that what makes
the Palestinian plight deeply painful, and
maybe where the analogy even doesn't do justice, is
that from the river to the sea is less than 500 times
what the United States is in terms of land. It's not that big of a piece of land, and so the original lie
was a land without a people for a people without a land, and the problem was that
there were people on that land that were forcibly removed. So I think that the sheer size, right, we're talking about a tiny piece of land, and a lot of people that
were removed forcefully from their land, and they
continue to be brutalized under those miserable conditions. - Why is Palestine a
special place, a holy land? - It's the land of prophets. It is a land that holds deep
significance, obviously, to Jews, Christians, and Muslims. It's the land of Abraham,
peace be upon him. It is the land that has
such a rich history to it that connects multiple
peoples in multiple ways. It's precious. I think that history, while
it tells the story of tragedy and struggle over that piece of land, also tells a beautiful story of sanctity. - So you mentioned Abraham, prophets. Prophet Mohammed is deeply
venerated in Islam, obviously, but other prophets are as
well, Jesus being one of them. What are the similarities and differences in the teachings from these two prophets? - Well, Islam refers to this
idea of submission to one God and attaining peace in the process, and refers to the way of life that prophets have all come
with, which is this idea of monotheism and serving that one God in the way that he
commands you to serve him. So to us, as it says in the Quran, that we do not distinguish
between the prophets. All of the prophets came with
one message, one mission. There's a coherence in the creed, there's a beauty in the foundation of what would become the legislation of each of those prophets. And we see them all as
siblings in prophethood. And so we say, "Abraham,
peace be upon him." We say, "Jesus, peace be upon him." We say, "Moses, peace be upon him." We say, "Mohammed, peace be upon him." We believe that Moses came to confirm what came from Abraham, Jesus came to confirm
what came from Moses, Mohammed came to confirm
what came from Jesus. They upheld the same message. God did not change over
time, nor did the centrality of his message of
monotheism change over time. And so to us, it's one beautiful house. There's a saying from
the Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, where
he describes the house of prophethood, each
prophet being a brick, and him simply being the last
brick of a beautiful house. And so we love the prophets
of God, and we believe that they each came with the legislation that was necessary for the
time, but with the same message. - So the message is
fundamentally the same. Is there a difference in
emphasis, for example, the emphasis on love with Jesus? - Yeah, you know, this is, it's
like when you talk about MLK and Malcolm to an extent, except there was actually
some difference, right, between MLK and Malcolm. - [Lex] Yes. - You know, I just think that
the difference is exaggerated between them, but I don't think that Moses didn't emphasize
love, but Jesus emphasized love, and then Mohamed didn't emphasize love, peace be upon them all. I think that they each
emphasized the same attributes and names of God and ways of knowing God, but there were, of course,
changes within legislation, changes within the divine law, but the divine spirit remained the same, and so I don't see them as
being counter to each other, nor do I see that any
prophet betrayed the message that came before them. I think they're all part of
the same beautiful message that we have to be at
harmony with our creator and that we turn towards
him for our guidance, and that when we do so, we establish a greater
existence here on Earth. And so I think that that's
something that's consistent throughout the message
of all the prophets. - You have been longtime friends with and had amazing conversations
with people of other faiths, Christian, Jewish. How has the events of October 7th and the days after affected
this, in the United States, your ability to have
interfaith conversations, connections, relationships, friendships? - Complicated, very complicated. And it's not just Muslims and Jews, it's also Christian Zionists. Christian Zionism is at
the root of the problem, in my opinion, especially
when we talk about what drives America's unshakeable, unconditional commitment to Israel. It's devastating, I think, to Palestinian Christians in particular, when Israel can bomb some
of the oldest churches of Christianity in Gaza and
kill Palestinian Christians, and Palestinian Christians are barred from going to the Holy Sepulcher or to their places of worship
in Bethlehem or Jerusalem, and Christians here in the United States turn their back on them. I think that it is
particularly outrageous, so it's complicated. Look, I expect more from people
in the face of a genocide. We don't have to agree
on all the particulars, but we can agree that what is happening is morally outrageous, and so I think that I've had a few people
that have reached out and said, "I wanna say something, but I can't," and I've had to respond,
"Well, that's not good enough." So I think that we have a problem, and instead of focusing on that problem, I'd like to focus on the more
morally consistent voices across faiths that have
risen to the moment, rather than those that have failed. - So you wish more rabbis would be able to have a conversation
like we're having today, and also not allow it to be seen as them turning their
back on their religion. - Rabbis, pastors, again,
it's not just, you know, Jewish leadership, it's
also Christian leadership. I think that it's important for those that have claim to be allies in the fight against Islamophobia to see that you cannot be opposed to Islamophobia while also extending
anti-Palestinian bigotry. - Yeah, one of the things,
since we last spoke, I've gotten to meet a lot
of Palestinian Christians, including in West Bank,
and that was fascinating, and those are beautiful people. - I think people should watch Reverend Munther Isaac's
sermon on Christmas, "Jesus in the Rubble." It was deeply profound. You know, I had a chance
to speak to Mitri Raheb from the Lutheran church there as well. Now they're devastated. You know, it was eyeopening
to many people here when Justin Amash, who was a
Republican congressman, right, Palestinian Christian
Republican congressman, posted about his own family dying in one of the church bombings. So it's strange, strange times,
and I think that it shows that the philosophy of hate
that drives this terrible policy is secular at its root and not religious. - One of the criticisms of
Islam points to specific verses of the Quran, and the criticism being that it is not a religion of peace. Can you speak to that? - So, objectively speaking,
if you were to take the verses of the Quran about
violence and compare them, just from a purely
percentage-based comparison, to the New Testament
and the Old Testament, you would find less verses
about war in the Quran than the Old Testament
or the New Testament, and there are plenty of
studies to speak to that. Deeper than that, contextualizing
the birth of Islam, the revelation of the Quran,
which was over 23 years, in response to deep persecution of the Prophet Mohammed,
peace be upon him, makes it very clear that
none of those verses are what they've been made out to be. If Muslims believed that
they had to kill people wherever they are,
mankind would not exist. There are two billion of us, right? If we believe that we
were called by the Quran to hurt people and to kill people simply for being non-believers, right, it would not make for a sustainable world. So Islam is not violent,
and I think that the history of Muslims also bears witness to that. The history of Islam is a
history of contribution, is a history of building,
is a history of medicine and science and math, and, of course, Muslims have sometimes fallen
short of Islamic standards in the past and in the present, but if you look at the
overall history of Islam and the history of the Muslim community, that's not the case. And when you look at the present,
you know, Muslim community around the world, Muslims do not account for a greater proportion of violence than other faith communities. And again, the word
terrorist is a functionless and meaningless word because,
to me, it's no less violent if it's commanded by a head
of state or by a government than by a non-state actor. So Muslims do not account
for a greater portion of violence now, nor have they accounted for a greater portion
of violence in the past. - Why do you think these
narratives have taken hold in present discourse, at
least in the United States? - Because they allow for greater violence against the Muslim community
domestically and abroad. The United States has launched wars against primarily Muslim countries, right? And has a particularly
violent foreign policy towards the Muslim world. And the Muslim community
here in the United States has dealt with, unfortunately, multiple aggressive iterations of programs of suppression and surveillance under Republican and
Democratic administrations. And so there's a convenience
to that Islamophobia, there's a convenience to that framing of the Muslim community
that also distracts from other forms of violence
that are deeply pervasive and present, including the
ones that are committed by the government itself. - If it's okay, you've
mentioned Al-Aqsa mosque a couple of times. I would love it if you can describe why it is such an important
place, a holy place, for Muslims in general, but
also for this particular crisis that we have been speaking about today. - So Muslims honor the history of all of the prophets, right? So all of the prophets that
have walked in that place, all of the prophets that
have worshiped in that place, all of that makes it sacred, right? So it's not separated from
Muslims from, you know, post-Mohammed, peace be upon
him, versus prior to Mohammed, peace be upon him, in terms
of the sanctity of that place. So we honor it, and Masjid
Al-Aqsa, in particular, is the place where the Prophet
Mohammed, peace be upon him, leads the other prophets
in prayer in the night of what's known as Al-Isra' wal-Mi'raj, the night journey of the
prophet, peace be upon him, and then he ascends to
the heavens and back, and it's also the first qibla, which is the first place of
direction of prayer for us. So before Muslims faced Mecca in prayer, for the first half of Islam, they actually faced towards
Jerusalem in their prayer. It was our direction of prayer, and it remained a fundamental
part of our faith, a fundamental holy sanctuary. There are three sanctuaries in Islam, Mecca, Medina, and Jerusalem, and Masjid Al-Aqsa is precious to us. And so you can imagine then
the pain of watching, you know, innocent Palestinian
worshipers being stomped on by Israeli soldiers or skunk
water being sprayed on people as they're trying to
walk in, or, you know, teargassing taking place
in the nights of Ramadan in that place, the restrictions on people that live right next to it,
and that cannot pray in it due to the certain
classification of Palestinian that they've been given,
or the age, right, because, generally
speaking, if you're younger, you're not allowed to
go to Masjid Al-Aqsa, even if you live within
the occupied territory, so it's tough to watch such a sacred place with such an ugly occupation,
but I'll also say this, that the sanctity of a human being, the sanctity of just one person, is greater than the sanctity
of any place of worship to us. So the sanctity of one individual in Gaza, or one individual in
Jerusalem is greater to us than the sanctity of a place of worship, but it is all certainly interconnected. - That's a really powerful idea. The value of a human being is greater than even the Al-Aqsa mosque. That's a foundational idea for Islam? - The Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him, says to the Kaaba itself that the value of a believer's dignity and
honor is greater than the value of the structure itself,
and so, when I see a person in Gaza aggressed upon, when
I see one Wael Al-Dahdouh, when I see one child, that's greater to me than even Al-Aqsa, but
Al-Aqsa is at the heart of who we are as well, and
it's certainly at the heart of the Palestinian cause. It's a place of prophets, and it's a place that should be treated prophetically. - You mentioned to me
that since October 7th, a lot of young people
in the United States, and in general, have been
showing interest in Islam. First of all, can you explain
what you've been seeing and experiencing in terms of that trend? - Yeah, we have Quran TikTok trends, where you had a few people
that went on camera and said, "You know, I'm reading the
Quran for the first time." And I think that that's
the beauty of the faith of the people of Gaza, the
beauty of their resilience. You know, when you're
looking at these people living what's hell on earth but they're seeking paradise outside, and they're able to still
be inspired towards words of faith and determination and certainty, you're like, what is their secret, right? What are they reading? What are they on that allows them to still face this brutality
with such grace, right? I mean, they're not shouting profanities, they're not shouting, you
know, words of emptiness or despair, but rather, they
are pouring out their hearts that are full of faith
for the world to see, and I think that a lot
of people have seen that and said, "What is that?" And so, you know, we've
had multiple people come to the mosque. I've never seen more people
become Muslim in my life, but not just that, but gain
an appreciation for Islam, like what type of an engineering is there, you know, that allows for people
to have that type of faith? So people are opening the
Quran for the first time. People are asking questions
about Islam in a way that shows that they're inspired, even
though they're heartbroken by what they're seeing. - What's a good way to
get introduced to Islam, the faith, the spiritual experience of it? - Well, I think, look,
you go to, you know, our websites, you go to
whyislam.org, you go to, you come to Yaqeen's
website, yaqeeninstitute.org, you go to multiple Islamic websites to get those questions answered, but there's nothing
like going to a mosque. There's nothing like
actually going to a mosque and meeting Muslims and asking questions. And I tell people like,
"You have to step out of your comfort zone and go there and let your world be
complicated a bit." (chuckles) Experience it, listen to the sermon, meet people from different
backgrounds, and ask questions. Muslims love to be asked, by the way, about their faith because they're so sick of hearing other people talk about it. So Muslims love to be
asked about their faith. Palestinians love to be
asked about Palestine because they're so sick of
other people talking about it. So ask questions, and you
will have them answered, but there's nothing like
a physical connection, there's nothing like a human connection, so definitely try to reach out to your local Islamic
organizations and meet people. - How difficult is it to convert to Islam? - Takes 20 seconds, man. (laughs) - Okay, (laughs) simple enough. - You testify to the one, there's no pool, there's no baptism. Like I often joke with people, I'm like, "All right, we got the pool in the back. We're gonna do the baptism now." You know, it's literally
testifying to the oneness of God and testifying that Mohammed
is his final messenger. And so that's called the
Shahada, and when you testify to the oneness of God and
to the Prophet Mohammed, peace be upon him,
being his final prophet, you are accepting what's known
as the Six Articles of Faith. Six Articles of Faith
are belief in one God, belief in the angels,
belief in the messengers, so you can't be a Muslim without
believing in Jesus or Moses or Abraham or Mohammed,
to believe in the messages that God has spoken to humanity
through divine revelation, the Quran being the last revelation, to believe in the day of judgment, and to believe in divine
decree and predestination. So those are Six Articles of Faith. So when you testify to the oneness of God and to the Prophet
Mohammed, peace upon him, being the final messenger,
that's called the Shahada. You embrace the package of
those articles of faith, that's the implication. Then you learn the prayers,
learn to fast in Ramadan. You give what's known as
zakah, the mandatory charity, 2.5% of your retained earnings, and Hajj, which is the pilgrimage
to Mecca, if you can. So that's the growth part, the journey. You know, once a person takes
the testimony, they then grow. It's really interesting because
we always have those people that convert to Islam like
a week before Ramadan, or even a day before
Ramadan, so you're Muslim and you gotta fast the next day, you know? And that's always a challenging
experience for people, but a fulfilling
experience for many people when they embrace Islam at that point. And again, I mean, it's simple, and I think that the beauty of Islam to many people is in its simplicity. One god, one humanity,
one body of prophets, and one community. - Because for you, as a
Palestinian American, this year, the Ramadan perhaps would
be especially difficult, spiritually, what are you anticipating? What do you think is the
difference this year? - (sighs) I hope and pray
that we have a ceasefire before Ramadan. I hope that, at that point,
we're rebuilding Gaza, talking about rebuilding
Gaza and helping people that have been damaged in
so many different ways. I hope that Ramadan is turning a corner. Every Ramadan, the aggression against the Palestinian
people seems to grow. So we're usually dealing
with, you know, last 10 nights of Ramadan, and then the
incursions on Masjid Al-Aqsa really sour it for the
entire Muslim world, right? 'Cause you're watching
worshipers being assaulted in one of the holiest places in the world, and at the same time, you're trying to find
your deep connection, your own deep, holy
connection, right, in Ramadan. This time, we're going in,
and if this is still ongoing, we're dealing with a continued genocide, so I think that the mood has
been somber in the community, the mood has been different from anything I've ever seen before, so I anticipate this
Ramadan would be different from anything we've ever seen before. I think the focus will
continue to be on Gaza and on either stopping
the aggression on Gaza or beginning the rebuilding of Gaza. - So a general heaviness
permeates just your prayers and your thoughts throughout this? - Yeah, I mean, look,
every sermon I've given since October 7th has had to
have some inclusion of this because it's what's on
everyone's hearts and minds. We also have people in our communities that have lost 20, 30, 40
people, right, in our midst. It's not the same. You know, if we start to have
refugees or people that escape for medical treatment or
that are able to get out through Egypt and join their families, you know, it's becoming more real, right? It's becoming more personal for people. So I think that Ramadan will surround, both in terms of messaging
as well as community, the pain of the moment with a
prayer for hope and healing. - Not to put you on the
spot, but in your sermons, in your private life, what
is the passage in the Quran that is one you find
yourself returning to often? - You know, the part of the Quran, I get asked this question, that resonates with me most usually has
to do with what is heaviest for me at the moment. There is a verse in the chapter of Mary, a part of the verse,
(speaks foreign language) your Lord does not forget,
your Lord does not forget. And so, you know, as you see
what's transpiring right now, our hope is not in creation,
our hope is in our creator, and our hope is not in this life, our hope is in the afterlife. And so that verse deeply
resonates because I think that, you know, many of us often wonder how are they gonna rebuild? How are they gonna get past this? And we know that God has a
way of restoring everything. God will restore everything,
if not in this life, then in the next. - So there's an eternal flame
of hope that burns there. - Yeah, and the people of Gaza have it. The people of Gaza have it. You know, you can be more easily deluded by this material world
if you're hostage to it, but the people of Gaza
have never been deluded by the material world because
they never really had it. They've always been
attached to a greater idea, to a greater place, and so it is part of the secret ingredient
that they have, right? That they believe in
something greater than this. And so you can't survive hell on earth unless you believe in
paradise outside of it. - When you look far into the future, 20, 30, 40 years from now, we're doing another podcast
in 80s and 90 years old, what do you hope to
see in the Middle East? What do you hope to see
change in the Middle East and the United States as a people, as a set of policies, cultures, nations? - I think that the nation
state model and nationalism are becoming so unsustainable
just with the growth of refugee populations,
desperate refugee populations, the rise of, unfortunately,
fanaticism and fascism in different parts of the world. Climate, you know, and all
that that presents to us in terms of displacement. We're going to have to
figure out how to function as a world rather than
as nations and states. We're going to have to figure out how to not see everyone outside
of our borders as threats, and people that are different from us, within our borders, as threats. We're gonna have to start
seeing people as people. And so my hope would be that we would have made
people uncomfortable enough to transcend some of the
barriers in their hearts and some of the barriers
that we have in the world that don't allow us to see
other people as people, and then that drives, you
know, horrific policies towards people that
are so distant from us. - You have been fearless in
walking through the fire. What gives you strength,
psychologically, to keep going, to speak out, but just
also maintain an optimism and a hope for the future? - I don't believe that
anyone gives me success or causes me failure without
the permission of God. I don't seek fuel from anyone else. I don't seek hope from anyone else. I believe in a creator
that has a greater plan, and I want to be a
greater part of that plan. And I'm inspired by the
resilience of the people of Gaza. I'm inspired by the
resilience of my parents and our grandparents and
Palestinians around the world that have refused to
succumb to their erasure, that have refused to give up. And so we have both the
energy that we need, and we have the examples that we need. The energy is from above. The examples are all around us. - Well, Omar, imam, this is a huge honor to once again speak with you, and I just wanna say thank
you, not just for this, but for many private
notes you have sent me, of kindness and support and love, through some of the low points,
for, as silly as they are for me personally, so
it's just great to be able to call you a friend and
to be able to have you in my corner, it's, I'm forever
grateful to you for that. - I appreciate it, thank you so much, man. - And thank you for talking today. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Omar Suleiman. To support this podcast,
please check out our sponsors in the description, and now,
let me leave you some words from Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. "We shall overcome because
the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice." Thank you for listening, and
hope to see you next time.