Matthew Cox: FBI Most Wanted Con Man - $55 Million in Bank Fraud | Lex Fridman Podcast #409
- She found like $40,000 in cash in my freezer one night. So she's like, what is going on? You know? And so we have this conversation and I tell her, "Look,
people are looking for me." "Who?" "Law enforcement." "Which ones?" "All of them," you know? She's like, "That doesn't even, for what?" I go, "Mostly bank fraud." And she's like, "Well, how
are they not finding you? I mean, everybody, you
know, people know you," like, you know, your general contractor, which I met four months before, this guy's, six months before,
this was two months before, you know, she's like, "So
and so, so-and so, so," and I'm like, "Right, right." Well, I said, "Well." she's like, "I mean, they've got your name, they've got your," I go, "Well, that's identity theft." And she was like, "What do you mean?" I said, "Well, my name's
not, you know, my name's not, it's not Joseph Carter." "And what is your name?
What is your name?" I go, "Look, you know, it's, you don't need, don't
even worry about it." - The following is a
conversation with Matthew Cox, a conman recently released
from federal prison where he served 13 years for
bank fraud, mortgage fraud, identity theft, passport
fraud, and other charges. He has admitted guilt to all of it. He has written true crime stories of many of his fellow prisoners. And now he continues this work by interviewing criminals
about their crimes on his YouTube channel
that I recommend called, "Inside True Crime." Exploring the mind of a criminal
is exploring human nature at the extremes, often in its most raw and illuminating form. And that is something
I definitely want to do with this podcast, to
understand the human mind and everything it is capable of. This is the "Lex Fridman Podcast." To support it, please
check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Matthew Cox. What was the first crime you committed? - The first mortgage I ever did. - [Lex] A mortgage is me
borrowing money from a bank to buy a house.
- Yeah. - How can you find a way
to commit crime in this? How can you do fraud in this space? - It's very difficult for the average guy to commit fraud because there's
so many safeguards set up. You know, if you were to go in and say, "I make $300,000 a year." "Okay, well, we want your
W-2s, we want your pay stubs. We're gonna call your employer. We're gonna check to
make sure your employer, how long they've been incorporated. We're gonna check to make
sure they're registered. We're gonna," it's like, ugh,
your whole plan fell apart. You know, because the
average guy can't do that. He can't even come up with
the, with the pay stub and W-2. So the average person, you know, or I'm gonna put down this much money, but you're gonna borrow that money from the seller, you know? Okay, well then they start
asking for bank statements. Where did the money come from? How long has it been in your bank? Like, you can't even have it
put in your bank for a day, get a letter, you know, it's gotta have been there
for 90 days or 60 days, depending on the bank. And so there's all these ways for the average person, it's
very difficult to commit fraud. The average guy that works at Walmart and makes $60,000 a year, and he is been there for five years and he saved his deposit. Like it's a very, that's really the guy that those transactions are set up for, to borrow a mortgage from Bank of America. That's the guy they're looking for. - So to commit fraud in this space, you have to misrepresent
some aspect of your identity of how much you're worth,
how much money you have, this kind of stuff. - Right, you have to be
able to lie to the bank. Anytime you lie to the bank,
you've committed fraud. And it's funny, when I was, you
know, doing it, I would say, "Ah, it's in the gray area." There's no gray area. You're either lying in some
capacity or you're not. So it's it, for instance,
the very first loan I did, I Wited-Out, my borrower had been 30
days late on her rent. So they're really looking
at the last two years. So when you go into the bank, and they, most of what they're asking is a a two year window. They're saying, "How long
have you been on their job?" They care about two years. And how long have you
been at your residency? They're looking for two years. Now, you could be at three
places in two years. That's fine. As long as you consistently
paid for two years. Well, she had been in
an apartment complex, but she'd been 30 days late. Now she caught it up, but she was late. Bank, you know, the bank
doesn't want to lend you money if you've been 30 days late. So I was a broker and I
Wited-Out the 30 day late. I just got rid of it. And my manager is the person
that told me to do it. She said, "It'll be fine." And she was right. It was. - What did it feel like? So that was the first
fraudulent action you committed? - Yeah, I mean, you know, I was worried, you know, I always say, you
know, I sweated bullets for, you know, four or five days, you know, but I mean, I was concerned and I don't know that I was concerned that I had broken the law. I was concerned because I was
behind on my truck payment. I was behind on my mortgage. Like I had banked on
being a mortgage broker. And I'd gone deep, deep behind
on all my bills to do this. So in the last minute, when
this loan isn't gonna close, and I have to commit
fraud to make that happen. And the idea, my fear was
they were gonna figure it out and maybe I'd get fired. You know, I didn't think
I was gonna go to jail because my manager assured
me, you're not going to jail. Like, you'll get fired at best. So my concern was they
were gonna catch it, and I get fired and I wouldn't get paid. Like, I needed that money so bad. - So we'll maybe paint the picture here. Where were you working?
Who was the manager? - The manager was, it's funny, 'cause I don't think I
ever really mentioned this, her name was Gretchen Zayas. She eventually, I don't mind saying it, but she eventually got, ended
up going to jail for fraud. Her name was Gretchen Zayas,
and she was a manager. I was working for a company
called Eagle Lending, and it was in Tampa. And this was like my first month. So it was my very first deal, three or four weeks into it,
into that first month. And I walk in, I put the
file in front of my manager. She looks through everything, you know. "Oh, great, good, good." And put this one piece of
paper over here and sat there. And then when she was done,
I said, "What's going on?" She goes, "Perfect, file's perfect." She goes, "But your borrower
was 30 day late on her rent." And she says, "That's, it's done." She's like, "That's a deal killer." And I was like, "Oh my gosh,
you know, what do I do?" And I remember she pulled
out a thing of Wite-Out, remember Wite-Out? Not
the sticks with the one. (Matt imitates scribbling) And she started going.
(Matt imitates scribbling) And I was like, "What?" She goes, "If I was you,"
and she handed, she said, "I'd Wite it Out, make a copy,
stick it back in the file." - Yeah.
- She said, "It'll be fine." And I went, "I could," I
was like, that's fraud. I could go to jail." And she goes, and she was like, "They're never gonna catch it." She said, "Look, we do stuff,
I do stuff all the time." She said, "They're not gonna catch it, and nobody's calling the FBI." She goes, "The worst case scenario, if underwriting catches
it, then they'll fire you. That's it. Nobody's calling,
you're not gonna jail." And I was, you know, and I trusted her. I was like, "Okay." And so, I did what she said.
I stuck it in the file. And I mean, look, like I
said, for four or five days, I was like, "Oh my God,
my God, I'm so scared." - How old were you at this point? - Probably 29. I think it was 29. You know, like I had gone to college and so many things had not worked out. You know, I got a degree in fine arts. It's not a, there's not
a lot of people looking for anyone with a fine arts degree. And, you know, I tried to
be an insurance adjuster. Tried that for about a
year, year and a half. That didn't work out. Ended up working
construction for a few years. And, you know, so finally
the girl I was dating said, "You gotta be a mortgage broker." You know, she's just had just started as a mortgage in the mortgage industry. And she was like, "You have to do this. Like, you were born to do
this. This is perfect for you." - What did she see in you? - She said, "It just, you're a salesman." And I was like, 'cause
I was like, you know, I barely balance my checkbook. Like, I don't know anything about numbers. And she's like, "It has nothing
to do with that. It's sales. It's putting together deals,
you know, you're good at that, you're good at negotiating. You're, you know, you're
a natural salesman." And I figured I'd, I
needed to try something. - So what aspect of mortgages
is sales and deal making, what aspects require the
charisma that you clearly have? - Well, one, you've got, you have clients that have lots of options. They can go to Bank of America,
they can go to SunTrust, they can go to Chase. They have options if
they have perfect credit. I ended up working for a company
that was a subprime lender. And those people didn't
have a lot of options. By the time, honestly, by
the time they got to that, to Eagle Lending, their options were over. So what ends up happening is, you're negotiating with sellers. You know, you would think
that a lot of the stuff that in that industry that real
estate agents should do, you know, the brokers end up doing because real estate agents are used to, you meet them at the house or they take you to several
houses, they, you know, they open the door, they walk around, they write up a contract
that's legit, a legit contract. And you're already pre-approved. Everything works out. But
subprime, that's not the case. You got borrowers with
horrific job history. They don't have enough
of the down payment. They can't, maybe they
have the down payment, but they don't have the closing costs. So you have to go to the real estate agent and say, "Listen, I need you
to raise the purchase price," and have the seller pay the closing costs, which is legal, but
that's not, to a degree. But that's not how they
wrote up the contract. So now you're having to get
them to rewrite the contract or you're have, you're, you know, there's little things you're trying to do. And the more, the more deals you get done, and the more you deal with
certain real estate agents, the more you start to
realize that they're, you know, you know which
ones are completely above board and which ones are
willing to twist the rules. - And a lot of it works
on personal relationships. - Right, right. For some reason, people tend
to like me and trust me. - Yeah.
- I don't know why, it hasn't worked out for so many people, but people naturally seem to trust me. And so if I say, "Hey,
I can close the loan, but you gotta do this, it'll be cool. Don't worry. We do it all the time. It's like my third loan. And you know, I've been
doing this for years." And they go, "Oh, okay." And then they raise the purchase
price, they add some money, they have the seller of
the house give the borrower some money, they stick it in the bank, or they put it in escrow
at the closing company. Like, now you're starting
to massage deals. - What was the second time
you committed a crime? So what, how did it start
to evolve from the Wite-Out? - Well, I mean, when that
went through, you know, I think a normal person
probably would've said, "Wow, it was a one time
thing, got away with it, whew, I'm good." But for me, it just emboldened me. Like, I just got a check for like, I don't know what it was, 25, $3,500. I was thrilled. And by that time I was already
working on another deal. But that guy, he made, I forget something
like he had made like, let's say $45,000 the
year before in his W-2, if you, based on his current track record or his year to date of his pay stub, he made just enough money. But if you factored in last
year's W-2, he was shy. So if I changed that 45,000 to 51,000, then he could, the loan closes, I get a check for 3,500 bucks. He gets into a house,
I'm doing him a favor, you know, I'm doing God's work. So I fix it, I kick back. I'm terrified a little bit,
you know, worried about it. Sure enough, it closes. Four or five days later they
call me, he's ready to close. A week later, we close, I get a check. Next guy that comes in. I mean, I got very, very quickly, I was concerned, do you have a house? Do you have a deal? Is it ready? I can get you, I could get you done. Now if you were in
bankruptcy or something, there's some things you
just, you'd pull their credit and you just couldn't help them. If they were, if they
had a 550 credit score or something, and no job. I mean, you know, it
had to be within reason, but very quickly it was changing W-2s, changing pay subs, changing
appraisals, you know, fixing, like I said,
verifications of rent. So it evolved very quickly for me. - And you're essentially helping people. - That's what I told myself. - Giving them a chance. People that have been really
struggling financially in life. So you've been telling
yourself that this is, you're doing a good thing for people. - I told myself that right up until that, those loans were solid and I was helping those people out right up until I went to prison. And I was in prison and I had to write,
the government asked me to write an ethics and fraud course to help teach the
nation's mortgage brokers. You know, all loan officers and brokers have to take,
I think it's nine hours of continuing education every single year. And I was approached to
write the ethics course, and it was about that time and about the same period of
time I was writing a book, my book, and that kind
of, I started reflecting on what I had done, you know? And the truth is like, and this
is a horrible thing to say, 'cause the first time I ever
heard somebody say this, I remember thinking, oh,
that's a horrible thing to say. Some people should not own a house. They shouldn't be allowed to borrow. They're not in a position
financially, you know, and there were many occasions where I put someone in a house that they 100% swore they could afford. It was I was helping them. I told myself I was helping them. And a year and a half later,
they're going into foreclosure. Their stuff's on the corner,
they don't know where to go. And the truth is, is that I'm not smarter than the actuaries that came up with those underwriting guidelines. - So in this whole process,
how are you making money? Are you taking a percentage?
- Broker fee. Yeah, I charge a broker fee.
Or you charge yield spread. So yield spread is, let's say the interest
rate is 8% interest. If I charge them 25
basis points over the 8%, so I charge them eight and a quarter, you know, 8.25, then I get
1% of the loan back as a fee. So if I charge them
eight and a half percent, I get two points back. So if it's $100,000 piece of property and the bank says your
interest rate is gonna be 8%, and I tell you 8.5, and I'm charging you a $3,500 broker fee, now I'm making $5,500. So on even $100,000 loan, you could make a nice chunk of change. I mean, it's- - So how much gray area is here? You said that there really
isn't when you're lying or not, but it feels like there is.
- I mean, you're lying. But it, well, every
time I change something, it wasn't gray area, I just committed. - Right.
- I just committed fraud. At this level, you're either,
you either meet the guidelines or someone has massaged it in such a way that they've committed
fraud and that's it. And there's, now there's tons of ways where you can commit fraud and they just can't figure it out. Does that make sense? Like I mean, I've com
you've committed fraud and it's like they've
looked at the entire, they look at all the documents and they double check everything. And they know there's fraud in here, they just can't find it. - But just because they can't find it doesn't mean it's not fraud
- Doesn't mean it wasn't, exactly, doesn't mean it wasn't fraud. - As part of this, you did
a lot of fascinating things. One of the things you did,
you talked about creating synthetic people, meaning
creating fake identities. What does it take to do
that, to do that well? - So your credit profile is
made up of your, you know, your name, date of birth, your address, and you know, your Social Security number. And, you know, those are
the kind of, you know, and then there's other things, where you work, that sort of thing. But what people don't realize is there's so many people out there that think that the credit bureaus already
know who you are, right? But the truth is, the first
time the credit bureau has ever heard about you
was when you told them. The first time you
applied for a credit card, they created a credit
profile at that moment. Prior to that, they had no idea. So the first time you apply,
you give them your full name, date of birth, Social Security number and your address, and they
create a credit profile and they say, "Hey, no
record found of this person. He has no credit," nothing
probably got denied. Well, what I realized
through the course of, 'cause eventually I ended
up leaving that one company and I opened my own mortgage company. When I opened that mortgage company, I was on the inside. Does that make sense? Like I wasn't just a
broker that was sitting out with everybody else and
would periodically come in and ask questions or would
call underwriting and, but really didn't understand
what was happening and what exactly what the
underwriting guidelines were. Now, I was actually
talking to the underwriters and you're talking to the owners of the lending institutions and the banks, and you're talking to all
of the account executives. And now it wasn't just Eagle
Lending I was talking to, there were 40 different
account executives coming in on a weekly basis trying
to get us to sign up with their lender. And they're on the inside
telling you, coming in, showing you programs and saying, "Look, if your
borrower is, you know, self-employed, we don't
ask for this or this. We just ask for them to
say they're self-employed." Like liar loans, you've
heard the term liar loans? - No.
- Okay. No doc loans, where they don't
ask for any documentation. If he's got over like,
let's say a 700 credit score and he says he's been a plumber and he works for himself, then he's got over a 700 credit score. He just has to say he is worked for himself for over two years and- - They don't ask him any-
- They don't ask for any documentation. He's got the money in the bank,
he's got a 700 credit score, says he is been on the job for two years, he's self-employed, we're gonna raise his interest rate by 1%. And he's got, you know, and that's it. He's got the loan. So, but you start to know how things work because I hired a bunch of
brokers to work underneath me, and when they would get caught,
I would get the phone call. So I get the phone call
from the owner of a banker or a lending institute,
you know, a lender. And that lender says, "Hey
Matt, we got a problem." I'm like, "What's up?" He is like, "Listen, we
caught a, a fake W-2." I'm like, "What do you mean?" "Yeah, your broker
so-and-so sent us a file and this person had, there's two fake W-2s and we're assuming the
pay stubs are fake." And I'm like, "Are you serious?" How did you even catch that?" And they go, "Oh, well here's what we did. We checked with sunbiz.com,
you know, sunbiz.gov, which is the Secretary of State's website that registers corporations. And we checked and the tax
ID number didn't match." And now I know every W-2 has to have a matching tax ID number for whatever corporation issued it. - So, there's a sequence of
checks they do to detect fraud on different documents like W-2s. - Right.
- And then you're slowly learning.
- Slowly, yeah, exactly. - [Lex] What's the process for detecting? - I mean, I had a pretty
good understanding anyway. - Yeah.
- But, so I'm starting to learn that-
- It's common sense understanding, yeah.
- So I'm putting these things together and I remember one time
I had a woman come in and she came in and
she had perfect credit. She had like 750 credit
scores. I mean, it was perfect. And she came in and one of
the brokers came in and said, "Hey Matt," he was like,
"Can I show you something?" I was like, "Yeah, what's up?" He goes, "Look," he said, "I've got this woman's W-2s here." I said, "Okay." I looked at them and he goes, "Here's your credit report." And he goes, "Here's the,
you know, application. This is the Social Security number." I went, "All right." And he said, "This is the
Social Security number on the W-2." And I went, "Okay." Keep in mind you go to get
a car loan or credit card. They never asked for these things. So, and he was like, and I'm really shocked he even noticed it. I probably might not have even caught it, but they were different. And I went, "Really?" And he goes, "Yeah." He said, "So I did, you know, she just brought them in,
you know, she's here." And I was like, "Oh, bring her in here." So she came in, sat down, I said, "Listen, here's what we just found." And she was like, "Oh,
okay. You know what? I don't want the loan, I just." I go, "No, no, no, no," I said, "Listen, you're getting the loan. You got a 750 credit score. Like, I don't care what we have to do. We're getting you the loan. I just wanna know what's going on. How did you get 750 credit scores under this Social Security number when clearly this is your
real Social Security number? You've been working for
this company for 10 years and your credit profile says it's only like three years old." And I was like, "What happened?" And what she told me she
did was she had been, she went through a divorce, she had been married for 10 years. Used her husband's, I mean
his surname for 10 years. So she has no credit
under her maiden name. But when they got divorced,
she switched to her maiden name because when she pulled,
tried to get anything in her husband's surname, it was denied, bad credit. So he had bad credit,
their credit went bad. So he switched to her,
she switched to her name and a friend told her if she
needed to get her electric or anything turned on,
she could use her name and use her daughter's or son's Social Security number, which was like a four-year-old kid. - Yep.
- So she used that and it went through, she
had to put a deposit down, but it went through at
least, wasn't denied. So that went through. Then she went and she applied
for an apartment with that. Sure enough it went through. She had no credit, but they said, "You don't have bad credit." So she said once she
moved into the apartment, she then started getting these
pre-approved credit cards. So she, she goes, but I
knew I had applied there using my son's Social
Security number, let's say. So she started filling those out and sure enough she got a
credit card and then she got two and then she got a pre-approval
from Ford Motor Credit. She went and got herself,
a new car, got approved, she'd been making the payments ever since. She has 750 credit scores. She thought she'd try at
buying a house in his name, in his Social Security number. And we caught it and she
got a house in that name. We closed it. I just was like, wow. Like this is great. - Can I ask you a question about that? Because it seems like she's able to pay for everything.
- Right. - So while this is highly illegal, is it unethical? Is it like, it's unethical
in that it's messing with the system on which
a lot of people rely, but it feels like there's some aspect of the system that's broken in that it doesn't give people
like her a second chance. - She could have claimed bankruptcy and then two years later, listen, two years outta bankruptcy,
you can go into Bank of America and get a conventional mortgage, assuming you have perfect
credit outside the bankruptcy, you have the down payment,
you make enough money, there's a whole bunch of, you know, a bunch of underwriting
guidelines you have to meet. But that's possible. But you're right. For instance, she wasn't
getting an apartment using, with her bad credit, she wasn't getting her
utilities turned on. She wasn't getting any
of those things done. - So getting your life back
on track is just harder. - It's extremely hard.
- So there's a temptation to take the shortcut and the shortcut is often going to be illegal. - Right. And she stumbled into it. - Yeah.
- But she basically explained it to me and I mean, I don't think she had walked
out of my brokerage office before I went and I just started
making up, you know, names and I think I went, I went
and into our file cabinet and grabbed some people's
1040s, which we had, you know, their tax returns and looked up children's
Social Security numbers and just grabbed some random
kids' Social Security numbers and their name and went
and pulled them and sure. And you know, but I
changed their date of birth to be an adult. Pulled it, and sure enough
it came up, no file found, you know, didn't say fraud
alert or fraud or anything. They didn't say, "Mismatched this, mismatched that," didn't say anything. It just said, you know, "No file found." Well then we went and we pulled, applied for a couple credit cards using a child's Social Security number. And then we went and pulled
our own credit report and sure enough, it didn't
say "No file found." It just said that there
had been two inquiries applying for credit cards. So I was like, wow, like
that's a credit profile. So that turns into me going to Social Security and calling
or calling Social Security and trying to get them to issue
me Social Security numbers to adults that had never had a Social Security number issued to them. I need to get Social Security number to give me a clean Social Security number. But I called up and of course, you know, I'm a novice, I don't
really know what I'm doing. So I call up and I say, "Hey, yeah, I never had a Social
Security number issued." And they were like, "How old are you?" And I was like, "I'm 31
years old," you know? And they were, "Yeah, that's not possible. Do you have a driver's license?" "Yeah." "You have a bank account?" "Yeah." "You have a Social Security number. Bring your driver's license in
and we'll, we'll pull it up." Okay, well that's not gonna
happen. Hang up, call back. "Hi, my son is seven years
old or three years old and he never had a Social
Security number issued." "Oh, okay. Was he born in a hospital?" "Yes." "Well, he has one. He has one. Go ahead and get your son, come in here." No, I'm not doing that.
Hang up, call back. So I called back probably 10 times and eventually someone
said, I kept altering it, kept altering what I was
saying till I got to the point where I was saying, "My
son was born with a midwife not in the hospital. And the pediatrician told
us that we needed to go, we need to get Social Security to issue a Social Security number." And they would say, "Well,
he should have issued it. But that does happen sometimes. So bring your son in and we'll, you know, you
can fill out the paperwork, we'll have one issued, you
know, first we'll check to see he never had one issued and if he hasn't we'll issue one." And so then it turned into, "My son is out of the
country and I need this." And then that turned into, "Oh, I'm sorry. Well, how old is he?" I was like, "You know, he's three." And they go, "Well, I'm sorry, if he's over the age of 12
months old, he has to come in." Hang up the phone, call back. "My son is 10 months old,
he's out of the country, born with a midwife, never
had a Social Security number." And then they go, "Oh, okay, that's fine. Just get his birth certificate
and his shot record and you can come in,
fill out the paperwork, we'll issue you a Social Security number." And that's what I did. So I figured out how to
create a birth certificate. You know, I ordered the
security paper, you know, when, where you make a copy, it says, you know, "Void if copied." So I ordered, had to
order a bunch of that, and I went online and figured out how to make a fake birth certificate. It was great too, 'cause
like the county actually, they give you a blank form and then they actually show you what it looks like filled out like a handwritten one filled out. So I knew if he was born
this day, he got these shots. Two months later he got these shots. Six months later he got these shots. So I just filled it out. I
even had to order a seal. So you have to have a seal that says like, "Hillsborough County Vital Statistics" or "Richland County Vital
Statistics," or something. And I couldn't get anybody to make that. So I changed it to like
"Richland County Office of Virtual Records." And then I took like 220 grit
sandpaper and hit it over and over and over again to wear it down. And then I, you know, I did the embossment on the corner and, you know, I printed it on the
security paper, embossed it. Nobody looks at those things. You could see Richland County, you know, you could kind of see that. And then really they just grab it and they go like this,
this is what you realize after you, when started getting
driver's licenses issued by the state DMV, right? The state, I figured out
eventually it was easier to just go into the DMV
and have them give me a driver's license than actually make one. So, but you notice they
would just grab the thing, they'd feel the form and go, "Okay." Like they don't even look at it. So, which is upsetting if you put as much work into these
documents as I am for them to go, "Okay, yeah, that's
good, sit over there." I felt like going like, "Hey bro." - Yeah.
- "Like take a look at this. This is artwork."
- Yeah, but they're looking for
the low hanging fruit of crappy fraud.
- Right, yeah. This stuff was right through. So. - Okay, so birth certificate gets you a Social Security number. So it's interesting 'cause you've also, you've done a lot of different approaches to
creating synthetic people. There's homeless people involved. So sometimes it's grounded in real people or real names and then you're- - Right.
- Like some part is fake, some part is real sometimes, and sometimes it's completely all fake. - Right, 'cause now I have the name, I have the Social Security number. And what's great is they mail you, what's even better is
you get, then you get to pick whatever name you want, you know, 'cause when you pick your child's name, he doesn't even have
to have your last name, you pick any name. So I would pick a name and I'd just say, "Oh, my
wife's last name is this." If they questioned it,
which they never did. But, you know, I've got
a Social Security number. And then I would go apply for credit cards and I'd get denied of course. But they would all offer
me a secured credit card. So I'd then fill out
the secured credit card and I'd send them, send
the bank the money, and they would give me a
secured credit card for $500, $300, 1,000, whatever it was. And then once you start
making the payments, I pulled the credit and a
credit profile shows up saying that this 31-year-old man with
the Social Security number that I know was issued, you know, a couple months ago
has three credit cards. They don't even say secure. They just say there's like,
this credit card is $500. It was issued by Bank of America. This one was issued by
Capital One, this one. So I've got three of them,
but I had no credit scores. So at that point I kind
of kicked back and waited and I just kept making payments. And I remember thinking to
myself, I'll bet you they don't, that the credit bureaus
don't generate credit scores for at least a year. And I was like, God, this is
gonna be a year long process. And while that was
happening, I started other, I was starting other ones. 'Cause I figured at least
in a year I'll have a bunch of these secure, you know, these, we call them like phantom borrowers, but now they call them
synthetic identities. So at least I would have
these synthetic identities and maybe I could do something with them. But what happened was,
at six months I went and I randomly pulled the
guy's credit, you know, the person's credit and
they had 705 credit scores, 705, 701, 695. I was like, "Oh my God," you
only needed a 620 to borrow to get a 95% loan from the bank. So I was like, "Oh my
God, this is amazing." Sure enough, a month later,
the other ones I had started all of them, bam, bam, bam. - So what do you do
with a phantom borrower? Like what, how do you make money on this? - So I think most people, if
you were just like a scammer, a fraudster, you would
probably just get credit cards and maybe build up that
history or maybe try and borrow a personal loan,
which is limited, you know, personal loans are used
to be, you used to be, you could go to an FDIC insured
bank, which borrows money. Those, you know, the
personal loans they lend out at the max $15,000, you
know, so you could do that. - So, you can go through
this whole process of creating a fake identity,
getting a card, paying it off, building up credit, and then you get $15,000 at the end or something>
- Right, you get 15 maybe, you know, if you wanna
keep making the payments, you know, if you could wait a year, you could probably get 15,000. Maybe you could maybe get 20, 30,000 and a bunch of little smaller
ones, you know, you get 7,500. 'cause I did, I know did, there
was a $7,500 from Citibank, you know, $5,500 from American General. So you maybe get, what, 25,000, you know, maybe 30,000 in personal loans. Maybe you can, you could,
you could then apply for, you could maybe get another 20 or 30,000 in regular credit cards. You know, 10,000 here, 8,000, 5,000. And then you go to the
lower department store cards and you go to Home Depot,
you get 1,000, you get 500. So it ends up being maybe
you can get 50, 60,000, maybe if you're really
good, you could get up to 80 or $100,000 in credit cards and personal loans if you really knew what you were doing. But.
- Per person, per identity. - Per identity. But I had the ability to leverage that perfect, those
perfect credit profiles against properties. And I mean, ultimately
that's what I end up doing. And so each one of those
identities was worth, you know, a few million. - Can you explain how that works? So to leverage them against property, so how does that work with a mortgage? - So what I did, yeah,
eventually, I mean, this was like, is down the road, but you know, I mean at this point when things are just, my whole life had kind
of gone off the rails. I was on federal probation. And so what I did, decided what I was gonna do was
start running a scam, a much larger scam. And what I was going to do was, I was gonna start flipping
properties, right? Like buy houses cheap,
fix them up and sell them. There's an area of Tampa called Ybor City. So I was gonna start
flipping houses in Ybor City. And you know, I thought,
okay, I can buy these houses for, you could buy a really
crappy house at that time for 50, $60,000, let's say 50. And then you could put $25,000
into it in renovations. You could renovate it for 25 and maybe you could get an
appraisal for a hundred. So I thought what I could do is, I can buy these houses, renovate them and sell them to, you
know, regular people. But I also had been working
on the synthetic identities. And then I thought, well,
or I could just sell them to synthetic identities and then I wouldn't have to
dump 25,000 into it, right? And these guys are perfect.
They have perfect credit. I can provide W-2s and pay stubs because by this point I'm
manufacturing businesses. So I've got, I've incorporated businesses, I've got websites for the
businesses, W-2s, pay stubs. So these guys have,
these guys look perfect. So I figure I'll buy these
properties for 50,000, sell it to these guys for a hundred. Maybe I'll pocket 40 or 50,000. I don't really have to do anything. But that seemed shortsighted. So I thought what'd be even better is that if I did a little bit of renovations and then I sold it for much higher, maybe I put 10,000, clean
up the outside of it. 'cause these guys don't
care what the inside of the property looks like. You know, they don't exist. So, but I can't, how am
I gonna get an appraisal for $100,000? Well, do you, you know
how appraisals work? Okay, so the bank sends
it an appraisal out, or at that time you could
provide an appraisal and they can review it. So they'll do what's
called a desktop review. They review it, they
review it on the computer, and they never go out to the property. Or they send someone out. They call that, you know,
it's like a field review. They send someone out and
they just look at the house. They don't go in it though. So I have to clean out the, clean up the outside of the house. So what I did was, but the
problem is if your house is, you're trying to sell that
house for let's say 200,000, the other houses, they have
to pick three comparable sales in the area that are also going to support a $200,000 sales price. Well, there's no other houses selling for 200,000 near this house. So I thought if I wanna get
these things appraised for 200, 250,000, I have to have comparable sales. And that appraisal's going to be reviewed. So what I did was I started, I went out and I bought
this house for 50,000 and, I recorded the sale at 200,000. So when you buy a house for $100,000, you pay $700 in doc stamps. But if you pay the extra,
an extra 700 bucks, the sale shows up for 200,000. I'm buying these things for 50. So I'm paying $350 and I'm just paying an extra $1,050. So it ends up being, you know, $1,400. But the sale shows up
at 200,000 on a house that's a crack house I bought for $50,000. Now I go, I trim the
trees, we mow the yard, we clean up the porch, we
put the porch rail on maybe, we paint it real nice. We black out all the windows,
you can't see inside. But from the curb, it looks great. And I get an appraisal. So
I do that with that house. I do that within another
house all within a mile. So I buy four houses
knowing I could use the all, there's a subject and three
comparables for all of them. So the first thing I did is I
bought four houses for 50,000, 60,000, 40,000. And I recorded the values
at, you know, 210, 200, 190. So I get an appraiser to come
out there, he appraises it, he says, of course, he
says, "It's horrible, but there's comparables here." Now of course it is in bad shape. And he says it's in bad shape. But I go ahead and I correct
all that, so I correct it. So now if you review the appraisal and you're in California, or even if you drive your car down, the appraiser comes to the house and looks at it from the
street, it looks fine. But the truth is I've got
$60,000 into this property and you're appraising it for 200,000. So the bank's ready to not,
they're not gonna lend 200, but they'll lend 190. So the bank is ready to lend this synthetic borrower $190,000 on a house that I have 60,000 in. So I walk, so I schedule a closing and we close on the house
and I walk away with $60,000. You know, and the thing
is, like, the problem was, is by the time I got to this point, I knew so many people in the industry. Nobody had to really
at that point show up. Although I've had people show up for the synthetic identities and sign for them, almost all the closings,
nobody ever showed up. I just showed up and said to
the title, to the title agency and said, "Hey, my borrower,
he's at work right now. He can't make it, can I just take the file and I'll have him sign all the documents at his work and I'll bring them back. He's like an hour and
a half away from here, I'll be back in two or three hours." And they're like, "Oh wow, that, man, Matt, thank you so much." And they would give it
to me and I'd go sit in the parking lot and
I'd sign all the documents and I'd wait an hour or
two and I'd come back in and say, "Here you go." - How were you able to
keep all this in your mind? 'Cause you have to not slip up in any of these conversations. - It's pretty easy for me to keep them everything in the correct category. Does that make sense? Like, I'm not great at a lot of things, but this I was very good at. - But well there's these
phantom people that exist and they were becoming real
people in your mind as in like, you're able to tell good stories
with those people, right? Like, because if you're
talking to the appraiser, if you're talking to the
everybody in involved, - Well, keep in mind the appraiser almost never meets the borrower. Never. Not even almost. Like 99.99, 99% of the
time they never meet them. - [Lex] But you have to talk about them. - Yeah. - So I guess what I'm
asking is you're able to converse fluently about
these synthetic identities. - Yeah, they all had different jobs. They all had, all the jobs were basically, they were all on the job for five years. They were all, it was, a lot of it was-
- Yeah, sure, there's a template.
- Yeah, exactly. But.
- Yeah, got it. - You know, listen, all matter of fact, almost every one of them
had the same birthdate, you know, so, because
I, you know, who knows? There's, so yeah, it wasn't difficult. And keep in mind, a lot of the brokers barely ever meet the bar. They call in on the phone,
but it didn't matter anyway, 'cause I'm walking in saying, "I got a slam dunk deal for you." And they're like, "Oh wow,
Matt, you got the W-2s, the pay stubs, you've got all the, you've got all their rental history, you have everything done. It's perfect. Thank you so much." They're happy to do it. "Hey, I print up the docs and
I'll have them go sign it." "Great. Wow, thank you." You know, assuming they
didn't already know about it and almost everybody involved in this, by the time I was done, was
involved, there was probably 15 or 20 people that all
knew it was going on. - The full of it. They knew the full depth of it. - Yes. Yeah, maybe not 100% everything, but they definitely knew this is fraud. - And they were still going along with it. - Yeah. Yeah. Keep in mind that even when,
I'll give you an example. One of my, you know, let's take, and this happened with almost all of them, was he would buy five houses. So the guy buy, what
happens, the basic design was I buy the houses, I
record the values higher, and this person buys all five houses, refinances them, he ends up borrowing a little bit over $1
million dollars in his name. Then of course, then I go and I get personal loans
from several banks. I get credit cards, I run
up all of his credit cards. By this point I've got 10, $20,000 worth of credit cards in the guy's name. So the guys are all worth like
a million, million in change. Well, once I stop paying, you start getting letters from the collection companies, right? From the banks, you know,
and then they sell them off. So after about three months,
you're getting tons of letters. And what I would do is I
would take my borrower's name, I would go online and I would find, or I'd go in the newspaper I would find an article about, let's say like a 12 car pile up. You know, so there's, you know, this huge accident on I four. It's very dangerous. So there's a 12 car pile up and someone in the
accident was life flighted to Tampa General Hospital. I would cut and paste that article and I would just insert my borrower's name into the article saying that, you know, Brandon Green was life flighted to Tampa General Hospital's
currently in critical condition. I would then print that
article out on newsprint. I then make a copy of the,
cut it up, make a copy of the newsprint, highlight his name, and I would write a letter
from Brandon Green's fictional sister to the
collection companies saying, "Several months ago, my brother was in a horrible car accident. He is currently," they've got the article, they have the highlighted name. He clearly was in this accident. He is currently in a coma. And the doctors say even if
he wakes up from the coma, he will never work again. That you know, so you might
as well just foreclose on, stop writing us letters
and take the houses back. And that's all they're
looking for is a reason. At this point, even if they
look into Brandon Green, they can't figure out if
he's a real person or not because he's got a Social Security number. He's got, and everything
went bad at the same time. He's got multiple rental properties or his primary residence. All of his credit cards went
bad. Everything went bad. We have an excuse, we have
a letter, that happens. People get divorced, they lose their job, they get in accidents, it's reasonable. - When they look into it,
it all looks legitimate. - Even if they ordered another appraisal, by this point it's not
four comparable sales or three or four comparable sales. By this point, it's like
10, 15, 20, 30, 40, 50, 'cause I kept making more
and more of these guys. - What was your, just a,
almost like a tangent. What's your thinking process? There's a lot of cleverness going on here. So like the car pile up as a solution, the newspaper and you mail it. What, are you sitting there
alone and thinking through this? Like how do you come up with that idea? It's a very interesting, a
very clever, innovative idea. - So at first, I thought about making like a fake death certificate
and he died, you know? But I thought, "Oh, I don't
know, like what if, you know, like some of these places
had like, you know, primary mortgage insurance, like what if the primary
mortgage insurance, like what if they try and
claim 'cause he was dead or like, I don't know,
I don't know that side. So I'm like, ugh, I don't wanna do that." I wanna do something
that's semi verifiable and third party, it's like a third party telling you this is what happened. I thought, well, like the
newspaper, you know, and you know, or do I claim bankruptcy? And I've done that, I've gone and got the bankruptcy forms, right? You can go to bankruptcy court and they'll give you forms to mail to all of your creditors
and you mail them. They stop contacting and
they wait to be no located by or notified by the bankruptcy court. But my fear there is, you know, nobody's ever gonna notify them. Like, I'm not going through bankruptcy for one of these guys. So it was like, this is a better bet than just writing a letter saying, "I'm going through a divorce. My wife's keeping those
houses. That's her problem." You know, you could do, there's
lots of things you could do, but to me this was, they're not gonna try. And how do you shut it
down without him dying? How do you shut that down?
This is how you shut it down. He's in a coma. He'll never work again. He was in a car accident. Here's the proof, he can't even write you. I'm his sister. I wrote you the letter. - [Lex] It's a one time letter
that seems to tie up all - Tie, exactly.
- Loose ends. - Exactly. You know, I don't know exactly how that, you know, what sparked
that as much as there were so many other avenues that I
could have gone that I was, I just didn't know I was-
- But you were thinking through all those different avenues. - Yeah.
- Are you mostly thinking alone?
- I mean, you know, I had guys that I was bouncing- - Ideas from.
- Ideas off of, there were other guys that were involved in the scam, you know, everybody. I think that scam ended up making like, I think the FBI said, it was like 11 and a half
million or something. And you know, but there were so many other
people that were involved in that scam that were, you
know, this guy's getting 50, this guy's getting 20, you
know, 17,000, 20,000, 25,000. And you know, we're just
doing it constantly. And so the bank would
foreclose on that property. They'd take it back, they'd
put it back on the MLS, they put it back on the MLS for a hundred, for 200,000 it wouldn't sell. Then they'd drop it to, you
know, 150 wouldn't sell. Then they'd drop it to
125, 130, wouldn't sell. They'd drop it to 90 and
somebody buy it for like 90. It wasn't worth 90. But by that point, that
whole area had, we'd done so many houses at that point,
the whole area shot up. And the FBI said we did 109 houses. I don't think that's true, but. - Wow.
- When I end up leaving Tampa after that scam falls apart and the FBI shows up, "Forbes"
came out with an article, whatever six months later, and they said that the Ybor City zip code was one of the top 20 fastest
growing appraising areas in the country. And, you know, everybody
was like, "Oh, that's Matt, 'cause this place is a dump. Like this is a horrible
place, like this is." And I remember one time
I had talked to a guy, you know, years later and he was like, "Ah, all the comparable
sales have dried up. Like when you left, there was just nothing
even close to 200,000." - You mentioned right
before telling the story of this elaborate scam that you were on federal probation. How did that happen? - So I mentioned that I
owned the mortgage company. - Yes.
- Right, so I had started a mortgage company, I had maybe
a dozen guys working for me. And there was fraud. You know, like I would
say it wasn't all fraud, but whatever, 60, 70% of it was fraud that was going in there. And from the outside of that business, it looked very legitimate. You know, we were an FHA approved lender. We were a VA approved lender. We did conventional,
probably signed up with 40 or 50 subprime lenders. But there was a considerable
amount of fraud. And, you know, it kept getting, you know, it became a game, right? You know, you start, I started getting just
more and more creative. Like I said, every time I
would get away with something, like, you become emboldened by it, it's like, nice, you know, like, hey, the underwriter's looking for this and looking for this. And you sit there and go,
"Man, so that she's, you know, that's what am I gonna do, what am I? You know what we could do? We could create our own bank." "What?" "Yeah. Here's what we're gonna do. We're gonna go on, like how do they know if this bank exists? These people are in California,
they're in New York. Like they don't know. So what we're gonna do is,
we're gonna go online," and keep in mind this is 2000,
you know, this is 2000, 2001. Like this is, the Internet's in its infancy still, right? So we figure out, I remember GoDaddy, I think had just come up with a site where you could build your own website. Like how cool is that? So I go online with a buddy of mine and we create something
called the Bank of Ybor. You know, we cut and pasted things that we like from other banks and we got a one 800
number you could call, or a 186 number, whatever it was. And you could call it, and
it would go to a voicemail. And so we set up this bank and then I ended up
making bank statements, which by this point I already had been making bank statements to prove someone has their down payment. 'Cause a lot of times people,
they have good enough credit to borrow 95% or 90%, but they don't have their down payment. So we'd raise the
purchase price high enough to cover their five or 10% down payment, and we would bring their
down payment for them. Or we'd have the owner of the house bring the
down payment for them. And then we would have a check cut out of the closing statement to a construction company that I owned. And we get our money back. So they get into the house
for 100% financing, or 110%. Some of them turned into 130. We wanna pay off their car,
give them an incentive to sign. They don't have, still don't
have the money to buy it. So we are doing all
kinds of insane things. Well, at some point, remember Gretchen Zayas, my old manager? - Yeah. The original, OG.
- Yes. She came and worked for me
for a short period of time, and then she and her husband went and opened their own mortgage company, which you should have known
it was gonna be fraudulent from the get-go because it
was called Creative Financing. It was, yeah, CFM, creative Finance. No, creative, it was-
- Creative was in the name. - Yeah. Yeah. Creative was in the name. - [Lex] Oh boy. - So.
- It's really on the nose. - So she's doing very well. And we became very close by the way, where we'd go on vacation,
went to Puerto Rico together. I got married at the time.
I got, I was married. Our kids, you know, play together. We babysit, we go to each other's parties. We're close, we're good friends. And she's got her own mortgage company. She calls me up periodically and asks me, "Hey, can you make a W-2? Or Hey, can you make me a pay stub?" "Sure, no problem." We're friends. That's what
fraudulent friends do. So, you know, if I needed
somebody to verify rent or verify somebody's rental history or employment, she had cell
phones she would answer, that sort of thing for me. Well, what ends up happening is, she gets in trouble. She starts doing fraudulent
loans for some guys, you know, and these guys are doing
what's called a cashback scam. So they're getting like a
half a million dollar loan on a house that's worth $300,000. So they're getting,
they're buying the house for whatever, 600,000. It's really only worth 300, 350. But she happened to be in an
area where she could get it, the appraisal jacked up. So they buy the house,
they get two, $300,000 back and it's a straw man scam, right? It's a cash back straw man scam. So this is a real person
that's buying the house. He's got perfect credit,
but he's willing to let, to ruin his credit to get a couple hundred
thousand in his pocket. So he never has any intentions. So it's not a synthetic identity, it's not a stolen identity. It's a straw man, he's a fake kind of a, not a fake person, but
he is just a straw man. He's a stand-in, so he stands
in, he signs the paperwork, he buys the house. They end up getting 2, 300,000. Well, this guy buys like five houses. So it is two, $3 million. They've lost 5, 600, 6, $700,000. And these guys never even
make the first payment. They just let them go into foreclosure. So the bank immediately investigates and realizes this is fraud. So the FBI comes in, they
grab Pete and Gretchen. She has to hire an attorney, of course. And she doesn't get thrown
in jail or anything. They just come to their office and they tell them they're
investigating them. They know what's going on
and they wanna talk to, they're like, "Well,
look, we wanna talk to you and you're going to be indicted." Okay, so she comes to me,
well actually Pete came to me and said, "Look man, can
you refinance our house and get a 75,000 out to pay our attorney?" I said, "No problem." Gretchen gives me W-2s, pay stubs fake. The whole thing's fake. I get her, I refinance, I get a second mortgage
on her house, $75,000. They pay their attorney. Their attorney immediately says, "you need to wear a wire on this guy. Like, he just got you $75,000. You know, I don't know
how you got $75,000." The, the attorney knows something's wrong, 'cause the attorney's like, they just, "Your whole mortgage
company was just shut down. There's no way you could borrow $75,000." So he is like, "This guy's
doing fraudulent stuff." And she says, "Yes, of course he is." And he says, "You need to work with the FBI, wear a
wire against this guy." So she calls me one day and says, "Listen, I gotta talk to you. The FBI's asking questions about you." And I go, "What?" And she goes, "Yeah." And I was like, "Meet me at a
pizza place down the street." So, you know, don't come into my office, 'cause everybody knows
she's been indicted. Like everybody in her
office quit when the FBI, if the FBI shows up and
gives you a business card and announces they're
the FBI, everybody quits. So I said, "Don't come here." 'Cause they already know,
they're already concerned. So I go and I meet her and Pete and we sit down at a restaurant, you know, a little pizzeria. And I sit down and she starts telling me that the FBI's asking questions about me. And I'm like, "Well, what
are you talking about? Like, what are they asking?" And she goes, "Look, they came
in, they took all our files." And like, I was like, "I
didn't know any of this. I'm like, when did this happen?" She's like, "Yeah, they
have a couple weeks ago. And they have some of your files." 'Cause I had closed several loans for my wife at the time. We were buying rental properties.
My wife didn't have a job. So they're, it's all fraud. But I couldn't close, I
could not close those loans in at my mortgage company
because I owned the property. So I'm selling those properties. I bought properties, renovated them and sold them to my wife to get around something called seasoning. Seasoning says you have to
wait six months to a year to refinance at the market value. Otherwise you, if you wanna
refinance, that's fine, but you have to refinance at the price you
purchased the property at. But I bought these properties for 80 or 100,000, renovated
them, sold them for 2, 300,000 to my, my wife who got a very, didn't even get a big mortgage. We were just trying to kind
of get around a guideline. So, but my wife was not working and I provided W-2s and pay stubs. So when she says all
this, she says, "Yeah, they're looking at the loans you gave me, at your wife's loans." And I went, "Oh my God." I said, "Well, you didn't tell them that the W-2s were fake, did you? You didn't tell them the pay
stubs were fake, did you? You didn't tell them that
the down payments were, you didn't tell them that
we were married, did you?" I mean, just absolutely buried myself. - Yeah.
- And as I'm telling her this, I was like, okay, I was
like, I kind of caught myself and I'm, "Okay, wait, wait, wait a minute. Look, okay, here's what
you're gonna tell them. You are going to tell
them you never met her. She called on the phone." Like, I start trying to devise a plan that will answer their questions without getting my wife in
trouble or them in trouble. And if nobody cooperates, the
whole thing should shut down. You know, they, it doesn't go anywhere. There's no way, there's
nowhere for them to go if everybody just kind of stonewalls them. So, as I'm saying all this, Gretchen says, "Matt, we can't lie to the FBI." And I go, "What are you talking about? You're already lying to the
FBI mean, you, you know, you've been lying to the FBI, I mean, I just refinanced your house." And before I can really say
anything, Pete jumps up, her husband stands up, and he says, 'We've never lied to the FBI. We may not have told them
everything, but we've never lied." And I thought, like,
who are you talking to? Like, I know that's not true. So you're not saying that for my benefit. So I was just, I kind of look
at them and I'm like, "What?" And I just, I remember looking down and this may mean nothing, but both of their cell
phones were right next to me. Right? And I remember they were
probably just wearing wires, but I just remember thinking those cell phones are microphones. - Yeah.
- They probably weren't. But I remember thinking, oh, wow. And I just, I looked at
it and I went, "Wow." And I said, "Well, I hope you're gonna get something for this." And she immediately starts crying and she says, "Matt, I'm sorry. I have a kid. I can't go to jail." - Do you have kids at that point? - Yeah. I like, I have a
kid. Like I have a kid. And I was like, "Wow. I, wow." - What have you learned
about friendship from that? Like, loyalty? - Oh yeah, there's no, there's, that's a, that's, it's sweet. - That must have hurt.
- It's cute. I mean, I love the idea of it. - You don't think that?
- No. I'll tell you why. So I go back to my office. I remember I told her, I said, "Tell the FBI agent to
call me on the phone. Do not come in my office." So I go back, I'm still trying to figure out how to weather this, right? I go back, I sit down, phone rings, my secretary comes in and says, "Hey agent, I'll never
forget the guy's name, agent Scott Gale with the FBI." And I was like, "Okay, he's on the phone." And she's standing there. I was like, 'Close the door,
like get out and close it." She's like. So get on the phone. He asked me if I'll come down. I said, "Yeah, absolutely. Let's schedule it for next Tuesday." You know, I put it off four or five days. I go to my brother-in-Law
immediately, who's a lawyer. And he says, "Oh, yeah, yeah," I don't really tell him exactly what's going on, but I tell him this is what's happening, kind of. And I may be in trouble, I need
a federal defense attorney. I don't even know what a federal defense, I don't even know the difference. But he said, "You need a
federal defense attorney. It's the FBI." So we go on a couple, we
meet a couple lawyers. I end up getting a lawyer.
I give him like 75 grand. And he started to have me convinced, initially he had me convinced I was probably gonna go to jail for a few years. But really that's what they kind of do to justify you giving them $75,000. - Right.
- And then, but the more I thought about
it, you know, and read, he gave me the guidelines that supposedly I had, you know, the fraud that I had
committed and what the guide and the guidelines that oversaw that. And I read it and I was like,
I'm not really in trouble here because I'm looking at a felony, but I'm not gonna go to jail
because there was no potential for the bank to lose money. So, because I bought the house with like a hard money loan, and then I renovated it with my own cash. And when I sold it, it
appraised at 250,000. My ex-wife borrowed like 180. So there's plenty of equity. If the whole thing had
gone into foreclosure, they still would've got their money back. And to be honest, by the
time all this happened, there was only like three
of the three properties. It was like five. But
we'd already sold a few. And at this point, we'd
just sold another two. There's like one or two properties left. So we're selling, at that
moment we were selling them. So I was like, no, I
kind of argue with him. But then he wanted 75
grand. I gave him 75 grand. And then he comes back
and he says, good news, there was no potential fraud. So I can get you three years. Now here's the thing, here's what I always kind of look back at. When I first went into
his office, he said, he said, "Listen, you
haven't been indicted yet. I spoke with the FBI spoke
with the US Attorney, they believe, and they've been told," and he said, "Look, they
didn't tell me exactly what they have, but they
said with the evidence that they have on you based on
two confidential informants, that it's, you cannot go to trial." And I was like, "Right,"
of course I knew that. And I was like, okay. He said, "But," he said, "You
haven't been indicted yet. And they are fairly certain
that you're running a mill. Right? A fraud mill over there. And that you guys are
churning out fraudulent loans. Now they can't come and they
can't come and raid your office and do anything about it yet, 'cause so far they only have you. But here's what I'm
saying is that," he said, "I can keep you from being indicted. It's called pretrial, is
a pretrial intervention where we go in and what we'll do is you go, you work, you go in, talk to the
FBI, you go grab a bunch of your mortgage brokers'
most egregious files, grab them, bring those files to the FBI, go work with the FBI,
they will indict them and you will not be indicted." And I said, which I
kick myself to this day. I said, "Absolutely not. I'm
not gonna snitch on them. I'm not gonna cooperate,
I'm not going to, you know, I'd seen the godfather, you're
not supposed to cooperate. You're supposed to be loyal and I'm not gonna do any of that." And it, you know, and so I say all of this where, you know, looking back like I would've, if I could go back in time, I would've gone into our
weekly meeting with a dolly and I would've walked
in front of everybody and scooped up two or
three of the file cabinets and put them in the back of a truck and said, "Listen, you
guys are gonna be talking to the FBI soon, I suggested
you get attorneys." And I would've driven,
driven off. But I didn't. I thought, no, be loyal.
You know, don't do that. And what happened was, when the other thing falls apart, right? When the next scam falls apart,
every one of these people go to the FBI, like, they're
not even coming to them. These guys are going to
the FBI with lawyers. "I wanna cooperate. I wanna
tell you what Cox did. I want to help, I want to," and I'm thinking like I
never had to get indicted to begin with. - So you think that most of these people from your
experience, are going to sacrifice all integrity. That's a funny word, sacrifice. - [Matt] Sure, that applies
to this. But that's- - Right. - They're going to sacrifice friendships and loyalty for just to
save them their own ass. - Yeah, I only had one person that did not talk to the FBI. I had one person that every time the FBI or the Secret Service went to
that person's door, she said, "Don't come to my house again. I don't have anything to say about Matt. I have nothing to do with any
of this. Talk to my lawyer." And this happened over and over again. And that's my ex-wife. She's a gangster. - So are there people in
this world you trusted or you still trust? - I, you know, the problem is eventually I cooperate. And at the time I didn't wanna cooperate. I didn't believe in cooperation. But after seeing how many people cooperate and the way the system is set up, I think that my understanding of loyalty is vastly more realistic now. And I think that if you
are committing crime, if you are absolutely
like the things I did, I did a bunch of scumbag
things, you know, I mean, I'm not killing people, but
I'm doing scumbag things. I'm lying, cheating,
stealing that, I'm a thief. You know, you boil down
to it. That's what I am. So you can't go around
behaving like a scumbag, dealing with scumbags and then expect those same
scumbags to suddenly abide by some kind of a street code
and not roll over on you. You know? And it does happen. But it's like in the,
it's in the 90 percentile of people that cooperate
90 something percent. And people cooperate when they're not even
looking at any real time. So if you're looking at
30 years and especially after going to prison, you go to prison and it's like, this guy's
a standup guy over here. He got 30 years. He could have cooperated against
all of his co-defendants, but he didn't, nobody comes to see him. His wife divorced him. You know, his kids
ended up in foster care. His, you know, his friends are
are cleaning out his house. Nobody puts money on his books. Nobody comes to see him. Nobody
answers his phone. Nothing. He took 30 years. Most of those guys turned around, they end up getting
indicted for other things. Years later, they cooperate. And the best thing this
guy's got going for him is that he can walk around and
say, well, he's a standup guy. That guy's going to the
same halfway house as me. He's probably, he's gonna do
30 years where I'm gonna do 10. - A standup guy, meaning
he never snitched. - [Matt] Right. - And so everybody's seeing this example and saying, well, I'm
going to snitch then. But it sounds like what people are doing
is they're signaling, virtue signaling, like there
are, they would never snitch and actually do secretly. - I mean, what is it? I remember I talked to one of the COs at the prison one time, and he said, I said, "Shit," I said, "50%
of the guys here snitched." He goes, "It's more than that." He said, "But listen, he goes," 100% of them are lying about it." He said, "So you'll," he
goes, "There's nobody here that's gonna tell you
they snitched, nobody." So there's guys, tons
of them that cooperate. If 80, 90% of defendants cooperate, you know, you start doing the math and you, if you ask 10 guys in prison, all of them say, "I didn't cooperate. I didn't cooperate. I didn't cooperate." Like, okay, well you ask
100, "I didn't cooperate." Like, nobody's gonna say, "I cooperated." - Does that break your heart a little bit that people back stab
each other like this? - It does, it does. But you know, but I have such a low opinion of people, you know what I'm saying? Like, I don't expect it. It's not that I don't like people, it's that I just don't
expect anything of them. You know, I don't expect
you to look out for me. You know, there was a time when I did, I thought, I look out for you,
you should look out for me. But I just don't expect that anymore. - See, but I think humanity flourishes because there is a lot of people
out there that do the thing that is difficult to do
in terms of integrity. - That may be, but these
aren't people with integrity. These are criminals. If these were decent human beings, and all of them will tell
you, "Well, why'd you do that? "Oh, you know, I was a drug
addict or I needed the money." Well, if you were, if you
were a decent human being, you would have gotten off the drugs. You would've gone and gotten three jobs. You can work 80 hours
a week, I've done it. You can work 84, 85, 80, you
can work 90 hours a week. You can do that. "Oh,
I did it for my kids." No, you're lazy. You could have worked
three jobs for your kids. Instead you decided to
sell methamphetamine. "Well, I was addicted." You
could've gotten off meth. It wasn't important. It
was the easy way out. You're not someone with integrity. So for you to sit there and say, "Hey, I'm gonna act like a
scumbag, but now I got caught or you got caught, and I
don't want you to tell on me." Well, you're a guy that robs banks. You stick guns in people's faces. You kidnap people, you torture
people, you sell drugs. You're not, you're not
a moral, ethical person. But you want, you want
everybody else to hold up to some ethical code while
you're robbing grandma. That's not right. Like,
you know, so, you know, I get the whole Omerta code, you know, and there was a mo there was
a time when I was, you know, delusional enough to believe that. But you know, after you're going through it, no. And after going through
it multiple times, no. - I have to really think about that. And I deeply appreciate
your honesty on this. - Because it's, I think, I mean, there's all kinds of
criminals in this world, and they all have all kinds of stories. And your story is one of, I don't know if it came from
desperation versus a love of this kind of game, right? Like, it wasn't part of it. And attraction to the
creative aspect of this, of breaking the rules
when nobody else can, and you figure out a way to do it. - I think initially it was, I needed the money. Like that's the first thing, you know? You say, "Oh, okay, well I
need," and if you ask most guys, "Oh, well man, I needed the money." You needed the money. But, and then I definitely
needed the money. But then you get $50,000 in your bank and then you get 100, and then it's 200, and then it's half a million
and then it's a million. And what the hell are you
still committing fraud for? You've got half a million or
a million dollars in the bank or worth of real estate, or you've, you're making five, $10,000 a month just in rental income. Why are you still committing fraud? So it turn, I think it
morphs into the creativity in part for me. And two, it was a chance
for me to prove to everybody how smart I was, you know? I mean, it was done outta
desperation initially, and then it just turned into
pure narcissistic arrogance. Look at me, look at how I can do things that nobody else can do. Look how smart I am. I just walked into Bank
of America, handed them seven documents that were all fraudulent and they cut me a check for $250,000. Like, wow, I'm amazing.
You know? And guess what? They're never gonna get their check. And they won't know even
know where to start to try and find the person because
they're looking for a phantom. So, you know, and you
feel great. I felt great. I used to, I felt like James Bond. I felt like 007. It was amazing. And, you know, and it did, it feeded my need to feel important. You know, even if it was, it was even if that was a lie, 'cause all that success was just a lie. - Well, no, you were good at it. - I was good at it, but it was, it's not- - It was illegal.
- It's not like I'm Elon Musk, you know what I'm saying? Like, there's, it's not like
I'm an exceptional human. I'm an exceptional human
being at a horrific thing at committing fraud. - Well, the question is, how
many people are getting hurt? Because-
- Initially the thing is, initially nobody got hurt. That's the thing. Nobody ever lost any money directly. Like I didn't go and say, give me $50,000 and I
ran off with your money. Like I wasn't doing that and
that was a great justification. But at some point, and we
we'll get into that, you know, I take off on the run
and people do lose money. I didn't take that money directly and for some reason in my, you know, sick mind or whatever the case may be, that seems like a distinction
to me that makes me feel okay, is that I never said, "Give
me 300, give me $10,000." And I ran off with it. But I put people in a position
where I damaged the credit or damaged the title to their house. And they had to go get a
lawyer to fix that, you know? And so that they had to
go pay a lawyer $10,000. So I absolutely caused that
person that I stood, to me to, you're a victim and I owe you that money. And it was a shitty thing to do because even at the time I was like, "Oh, they'll make a couple
phone calls, it'll be fine." It wasn't fine. And if I had really put
any thought into it all, I would've known it's gonna
really affect these people. And those people had done nothing wrong with the exception of trusting me. They rented me their house, or they owner financed their house. They made the mistake of bumping into me and now they owe 10,000, $20,000. You know? And I'm sure a a ton of anguish. - So what happened when you
were caught that first time? - So I was caught. I got
three years probation. You know, I took the probation. - What does that involve?
- Initially it was, it was such a slap on the wrist. - Were you allowed to still practice being the-
- No, well, okay, so I wasn't, I had to, I couldn't own the
mortgage company anymore. That was a good question,
'cause like I, you would think, you know, wouldn't it be great
if I could keep on going? But what they said was, you know, "You have to forfeit your brokers license and your brokerage business license." And what I did was, I transferred my brokerage
business license to a guy that essentially bought my business. They allowed me to work as a consultant in the mortgage industry. You know, 'cause they
went, you know, they go, my lawyer goes to the judge and
says, "What else can he do?" So, and so I have a friend, his name's Dave Walker, he was a CPA. He came in and he bought my business and he paid me like $9,000 a month. And that covered my bills. My wife and I got divorced. So she's my ex-wife. And, I don't know what to do, right? Like, I don't, I could, you know, and I always say, you know,
I could have like, you know, you look back and it's like, I could have claimed bankruptcy. I could have moved into my
parents' spare room, you know, something like that. But, you know, 'cause I had, I lost everything in my divorce. I had huge child support
payment, you know, not that that has anything
to do, like with my ex-wife. Like, I absolutely signed up for that. Like, I wanted to pay that. But it was a chunk of change, you know. So we're talking about a
couple thousand dollars a month for, you know, for child support. She got all of the apartments that we had. We had about a million, million and a half dollars
worth of apartments, which isn't a lot now,
but that's probably five or $6 million now. So she got all the apartments,
so she got everything. So now I'm sitting here like I got, I can't be a mortgage
broker, I can get my $9,000, but I have to help this
guy run this company, train people, do that sort of thing. So what I decided to do was, I was gonna start flipping houses. - Legitimately or no? - Well, initially I thought about doing it legitimately, right? But at the same time, I
was also in the middle of figuring out how to make
these synthetic identities. So I'm making the payments
every month, remember? Two months in, three months?
No, no credit scores. No credit scores. No credit scores. And I'm also saying, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna start buying houses,
renovate them, sell them. So the truth is, we actually renovated probably one house completely. I remember it was on 26th Street. We renovated the house completely. - On the outside in and the inside? - Yeah, outside, inside.
It's done. It's good. - [Lex] Okay, great. - Me and this guy actually, Dave Walker, the guy that bought my business. So we renovate it and it just
so happens at the same time, I go to pull the credit one day and wow. 700 plus credit scores. And I went, "We don't have
to sell this thing at all." Like we just, we can just, I can sell it and put it in this guy's name
and let him refinance it. And so that's what we did. We ended up, I ended up selling it to this synthetic identity. - Do you remember the first
synthetic identity? The name? - The first one was a Joel Cologne. - Yeah.
- And then I started getting creative because the ones after that, I started naming well, so
I had like Joel Cologne and an Allen Duncan. But then I, do you remember
the movie, "Reservoir Dogs?" - [Lex] Hmm-mm. - So I started naming the characters after guys in the "Reservoir Dogs." So I had a James Red, you know,
I had like a Michael White, a Lee Black, I had a William Blue, David Silver, Brandon Green. So then I start developing these guys. Now I thought, oh, forget
those normal things. I'm going with these with
the "Reservoir Dogs." And I thought I was so cute too. - You think in retrospect
that was a mistake? - It was so stupid. That was just, it's just,
there's so many things, so many mistakes I made. I mean, within the fraud,
there are mistakes I made. But, you know, other than just
the overall committing fraud. But it was just like, I
thought it was so cute. And then, you know, you
get in front of the judge and the judge is hearing
about the "Reservoir Dogs," and Mr. Green and Mr. Black,
Mr. White, Mr. This, Mr. That. And he's looking at me
just like, "You jackass." Like, and you know, what am I saying? I'm like, "Yeah, I thought that was cute," you know, but nothing's cute. So, you know, plus I'm making fake banks. - What's the purpose of the fake banks? - Well, sometimes you have
to have your down payment in the bank, right? So you have to, they
want three months worth of bank statements to see that, hey, he's got his $50,000 in the bank. And then the more, the
more properties you buy, they start to want to see
what's called reserves. They wanna make sure that you can pay all your mortgage payments. If this guy loses his job, can this guy maintain all
these mortgage payments for the next six months? And see they do that and
they think you're gonna go, you know, "Oh no, he can't do it." They go, "Well then we won't lend it." Well, when they do that to
me, I go, "Of course I do. Of course he's got it. Let me send you over the bank statements. Oh, you want to call the bank? Call them." - [Lex] So there's a phone
number, there's a website. - Yes, you can call. We'll get on there. I'll do the whole, (Matt imitates typing) you know, and "Hold on, okay, what's the name again? Do you have the account number? (Matt imitates typing) Hold on." You wait a little bit.
You know, you come out. "Oh, okay, I got it here. I can't tell you the
exact amount right now, but what was his balance last month?" And you, you tell. "Oh, yep. That that's it.
Exactly. Okay. Thank you." Click. - Would you do different voices
or would you be the same? - No, I've done different voices or I'd just have somebody else do it. You know, Gretchen would've done it. Or one of the brokers,
Susan would've done it. One of the brokers that worked
for me, or you know, Kelly or Johnny Moon, or, I
mean, I have so many guys and you know, they just get
on the phone and they do it, 'cause they're all doing something fraud and we're all working together. So, hey, I need you to call this guy. I need to call this guy and verify this and say, "Oh, I'm at the bank. Okay, I'm at the bank. Okay, cool." And they call back. And- - Does this feel like an organized system or was it more improv, just like dealing with the different situations? - The government would
definitely say it was organized. I always say it was, you
know, you're a bunch of, it's just a bunch of guys,
you know, to, you know, it's, you're joking around with everybody and you're helping each other
and it's not like everybody's, you know, kicking up to Tommy. - Yeah.
- You know, so. - So, and then all these new puzzles come up and you figure out ways to sell these puzzles.
- Right. You go in and you say,
"Hey, I've got this loan. I need to get this loan
if this guy's trying to buy this house and I need a loan that looks like this, where can we go? And by the way, they cannot, they cannot order a copy
of his tax returns." So you don't want to have to
sign what's called a 4506. So they're like, "Oh, okay, listen, so and so's got a program that," da-da-da, you know, and you go back and forth, "But you have to have
this much in reserves. But you got the bank, right?" "Yeah, yeah, I got the
bank, I could do that." You know, so you go in and you throw it out
there to five or six guys and you're gonna come up with an answer. - So you're on probation
here just to self-reflect, did you start doing
this while on probation because of the money or
because it gave you meaning? - God, I, you know, I mean
part, a big part of that. The reason is, I did not want to move back in with my parents and I didn't want my father
to see me struggling. And I didn't want him to, it was my success. He had no idea. My success had been the
first time he'd ever really been proud of me. Does that make sense?
- Financial success? - Yes.
- At which point, when was the first time
you told him you did something and he was like, you
could sense him being proud? - Oh, when I became a mortgage broker, when I became a mortgage broker and I went to work for the company and we're talking about within a week, I got a client, three days later, I got a client, a week later, got a client, two days
later, got a client. Like, I closed four loans my first month. And my dad was like, well, "How much money are you gonna make?" "And I'm like, oh, I'm
charging this much, this, I got a point on the back. I got this, I got boom. I'm thinking I'm gonna
walk home after taxes like 10, 11,000." "Jesus, God almighty," you
know, "Are you serious?" "Well, we'll see, don't
start counting your chickens before the, you know," and then, you know, two
whatever, three weeks later, four weeks later, you
know, boom, I got a check. It's like $9,000 or something. Or, and then, you know,
the next month it's 12 and the next month it's 16. And you know, then they make me a manager. And you know, it just,
- He didn't know any, if it was illegitimate.
- No, he thinks, he thinks, "My son, he's brilliant," you know, "He's great, he's wonderful." I had, you know, was
certainly not proud of me prior to that. But, you know, my dad was athletic. He was extremely bright. I mean brilliant. And I was a kid who had to
be put into special schools who barely graduated high school, who ended up going to college and getting a degree in fine arts because I was never gonna be able to get a degree in business. It wasn't gonna happen. So when I graduated college, I remember with the degree
in fine arts, he said, "The best, you'll, the best
thing you could do with that is, maybe you could draw
caricatures at Disney World." You know what I'm saying? Which wasn't a compliment,
but it wasn't like, "Hey, you could draw." So yeah, he, you know,
and then I turned around and I tried to go to work
for State Farm Insurance, which is who he worked for. He worked for them for
like 40 something years. And I failed the aptitude test. So then I went and worked
for another insurance company and I was an insurance adjuster, but I couldn't keep up with the workload. And then I ended up working construction. I'm still barely paying
my bills, you know, and that's basically where
my dad felt like that's, you know, he was polite to me. You know, we was, we
were, you know, cordial. But yeah, I wasn't, I think he felt he
deserved a better kid, so. - Well when you, when you
started doing mortgages, that's when he was like-
- Of course he was like- - Oh, this kid's got something. - I'm driving, I'm driving a new, I got, I just pulled in a new car and I got a, I just bought
a house that was, you know, four or five blocks away from his house, from where I grew up, from where he lives, you know,
lived at that time, you know, six blocks away from
where my sister's married to her lawyer husband,
like I'm doing pretty good. And then within three
months we bought, you know, my new wife, we buy a, a quadplex and then we're buying a
triplex and another quadplex and a 10 unit and then a duplex, and another duplex and a quadplex. And it's like, what the hell's going on? This guy is blowing up. He's going on vacation
here and vacation here. And you know, so he, you know, and so when the FBI comes
in and they indict me, and I take the three years
probation, like, I mean probably the worst thing
in the world, you know, other than going to prison
would've been just having to just sell everything and
go move in and start over and sell used cars. Not that there's anything
wrong with selling used cars, but I just felt like, you know, I just didn't want to
disappoint him any more than I already had. So I thought, I'm gonna flip houses and then I'll start maybe
a development company. So I'll buy some vacant
lots and all this and that. The problem is these houses,
I'm buying for 50,000. If I fix them up and sell
them, maybe I make 20, 25,000. And then you gotta find
a qualified borrower. It's very hard to find
a qualified borrower that wants to live in Ybor City. Back then, it's, I still think it's rough, but those same houses are
going for three and 400,000. So, you know, I'm buying houses, I gotta get qualified borrowers,
I do all the renovations. It's a nightmare, you know? And if I, you know, looking
back, it's like, okay, well then you gotta bite the bullet. It's just what you have to
do. I didn't want to do that. I didn't want to do it
whether it was laziness or I don't know, you know, I
just thought I'm good at this. I'm gonna run, I'm just
gonna start running a scam. I'm gonna figure out how
to drive the prices up, buy the houses for 50,
record them at 200,000, and then have these
synthetic identities buy all the properties, refinance
them, pull out the cash, make six months worth of payments, let them all go into foreclosure. And that really, really
started working well. Very well. I had one time where I had a guy, it was James Red, the synthetic
identity was James Red. And he had bought two or three houses and there was somebody at
the office who was friends of somebody who knew the title company where we were closing the loans. And he called her, her name was Mary, and said, "Mary, this guy James Red, like Cox is doing something shady. James Red doesn't even exist." She goes and looks at the
file, her last couple files, and she realizes, of course, obviously like this guy never showed up. She remembers Cox picked up the files, like, and he's saying he doesn't exist. So she freaks out. She
calls the mortgage broker. Mortgage broker calls me,
mortgage broker calls me up and says, "Listen, Mary said
she's not closing the next loan unless James Red shows up." And I went, "Wow, that's a tough one." And she's like, "Okay,
so what do you wanna do? Do you wanna go to another title company?" Like, we're supposed to
close in like three days, two, three days. And I said, well, I mean, he's
gonna have to show up then. I said, I'm gonna, I'll figure it out. Like, gimme a couple days, gimme, lemme figure this out. And she's like, "Okay, well, I don't know how that's gonna happen. He doesn't exist." Keep in mind at this
point, I don't need IDs. I don't need a real ID. I mean, I can, I figured out how to kind of make a real ID, right? Like I could make one,
I could take sandpaper and sand off the
information on a regular ID and then I would print
the corrected information in reverse on a piece of transparency and I would glue it over there and you could still see
the holograms and stuff. It actually worked pretty good. I don't, a cop's not gonna,
it's not gonna pass muster with a cop, but somebody at
the bank, like I was able to go in and I would open
a bank account with it. Well, so, one of the things I had done when I was closing these loans was, I would go online and I would pick, you have to pick a photo
of somebody, right? To put on the driver's license, right? So I'm not making a fake
ID for all these guys 'cause I don't need a fake
ID for all these guys. Not with my picture on it. But I need a fake, I need a copy of an ID, but I need a picture. Where do I get the picture? So I go to Hillsborough
County's arrest website and I would find people that
I knew that had been arrested. And so I found a guy named Eric Tomargo who had been arrested. He had like, I don't
know what it was, the DUI or domestic violence,
I forget what it was, but there was a picture of him. So I print out the picture,
I cut it up, I paste it onto a driver's license
and I make a copy of it, you know, for James Red. That's what I'd been
giving the title people, when I would close, I'd
sign all the documents and I'd leave them that copy so that it looked like
they made a copy of it. And then they would
notarize all the documents even though they'd never seen this person. They have a copy of his driver's license. Everything's signed. Cox
said he signed it, it's good, notarized, here's your check. So what I do is I think, let me see if I can get Eric to do this. He's been to, I knew he'd
been to prison before, so I call up Eric and I remember
one of my buddies, like, "He's never gonna do this." And I was like, "I think
he will. I think he will." So, and that's how, and that's really that kind of like, "You
think, what do you think?" "No, let me try, lemme call him." "I don't know, bro." Like, that's the kind of
conversations you're having. Like, but really looking back, I'm still curious.
- I would love to hear the opener few sentences
that you have with him. - I got, I can tell you
exactly what I said, 'cause it's burned in my mind. He comes in, so what Eric
was doing at that time, he was actually working for us. He worked for somebody else,
but periodically we would, you know, we'd buy a house
and we'd call him up. We'd say, "Hey, can
you, you and your boss, can you guys come over and
trim the trees of this house? Trim all the trees, take all the crap in the yard, clean it up." They go, "Yeah, sure, no problem." 'Cause that's what he did, worked for like a handyman service. So they would come and they'd clean it up and they'd do that. So I say, "Can you come over?"
And he goes like, "Yeah." So he comes to the office,
whatever, a few hours later and he comes in the conference room. I said, "Hey Eric, what's going on?" And he says, "Hey, you
know, how's it going?" I said, "Yeah." I said, "Listen," I said, "I'm gonna tell you something. I need a favor." He's like, "Okay, cool." He's like, "What is it?" I said, "You know all these houses we've been having you go and clean up?" He's like, "Yeah, we had that. You had, you painted that
one house, you did this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know, I know." "Right, so here's what we've been doing. I've been buying these houses for $50,000, recording them for 200, and then I have these
fake people buy them." And I explain, I just lay it out for him. And he's like, "Wow, that's," he's like, "That's, fuck it bro,
that's ingenious, man. That's some, that's
smart. Like, wow, woo." And you know, I was like, "Okay," I said, "Yeah,
I know, that's great. So here's the thing." I said, "The title company
who's been closing some of these loans and we have
a closing in a couple days, she wants this guy, James Red, to show up and I need someone to
show up as James Red." And he goes, "Wow." He goes, "Who are you
gonna get to do that?" And I was just thinking, I was just like, you're not understanding,
I'm not confiding in you, 'cause I need a friend, you know? So, and I looked at him, I said, "Well, I was thinking you might do it." He was like, "Whew," he
says, "That's a big favor." I said, "It is a big favor." "I could be in a lot of trouble." And I said, "I know." And he goes, "Well, whoa, wait a minute." He goes, "I can't go." He said, "You have to give
these people a driver's license. You said the driver's licenses, you were using mugshots. You said she's closed a couple of these. She already, she's seen
this guy's picture." And I go, "She has seen this picture." I said, "The thing is for
James Red, I pulled the mugshot offline of you when you were
arrested a couple years ago." And he jumps up and he
goes, "You motherfucker!" And I go, "Whoa, whoa,
whoa," I said, "Eric," I said, "Wait a minute." I said, "Hold on, hold on." I said, "Listen," I said, "I
only did that because I knew if it came down to this moment, you were the only person that I knew that could pull this off, that'd have the balls
to walk in and do it." And he sat there and he went, "Yeah, you're right, you're right." And I mean, well, I
couldn't believe he fell. Listen, this guy would
beat the brakes off me. He was, he's like 510, 511. He's boxed. He's a big guy.
- Yeah. - So, you know, it's like I've weathered
that part of the storm. And he sat there and he
goes, "Right, right." And he goes, "Well I'm
not doing it for free, I'm not doing it for nothing." I said, "No, bro, of course not." I mean, you know, what he's like, "You're making a lot of money." I said, "Well, keep in mind
a lot of that money goes back in the property, it's not
like we're walking away with, you know," I think I
said like tens of thousands, we're really walking away
with hundreds of thousands. "It's not like we're walking
away with a bunch of money or, you know, it's, you
know, we gotta put it, we gotta buy more properties,
we gotta keep it going. We gotta make the payments." "Oh, I know, but still, I
could get in a lot of trouble." I said, "I understand, bro." I go, "Well, what do you want?" And I remember thinking
if he asked for more than like 10 or 15,000, like
I'll just, I'll do it myself. We'll just change title
companies and we'll go and I'll do it myself. And he sat there and he went, "I want $500." And I went, "$500?" Listen,
I almost started laughing. I mean, I was like, I put my hand over my, I was like, "$500?"
- Yeah. - It's gonna take you 30 minutes. And he's like, "I don't care, bro. I could get in a lot of trouble." I was like, "Oh, well yeah,
I'm not paying you now. You gotta sign first." And he's like, "Oh, you
know, I'll sign, I'll sign. I know you're good for
it, I know you're good." Bro, he did it for 500 bucks, I made a fake ID for him. He goes in to the place,
he signs "James Red." Comes out. What was even, you know
what was funny about that? Was when we walked into the title company, we're sitting in the lobby and Mary comes walking
out, she looks at me and she goes, "Mr. Cox, I
don't know why you're here." She goes, "I told Kelly,"
that was the broker. She goes, "I told the broker
that I'm not closing the loan unless James Red shows up,"
and Eric stands up on cue, and he goes, "I'm James Red." And she was like, and she
goes, "Hold on a second." She runs in the back, comes
back with a file, opens it up, looks at the picture, and
she's like, "Oh, I'm so sorry. Give me five minutes.
I've got the file, I." Prints up the docs, he goes
in, signs and when we're there, she's passing out the checks. 5,000 here, 25,000 here, 35,000 here, 7,000 here, 6,000 here. So he sees all these checks and I'm like, "Oh, I got that, I and the construction company. No, no, no, I have that. I'll take care of that.
I'll take care of that. So I get all the checks and I leave. We go sit in my Audi and he sits down and he is like, "Bro,
it's a lot of money." "A lot of that money goes back
into the properties, Eric." And he is like, "Ah, still bro." And I said, and I counted out 500 bucks. But listen, a week later
we had another closing. So he comes in, I said, "Hey bro," he said, "Hey, what's going on?" And I said, "I need you to
do the James red thing." He goes, "Yeah, I've
been thinking about that. I did that way too cheap." I said, "I get it man,
well how much do you want? What do you want?" And I'm thinking, if
it's more than 10 or 15, I'll do it myself. And he sits there and he
goes, "I want $1,000." I go "$1,000?" Like, oh, like, oh my God. So I gave him $1,000 and he did another one. And, but by that point it was like five or six, we'd done five
or six with that guy. And after five or six plus the
credit cards, plus, you know, all the other things, like their credit scores start dropping. And you know, if it was 700,
now it's down to like 600 and at 600 you couldn't really borrow enough to make it worth it. It's like, and I have other
people in the wings waiting. So, you know, we would just, I'd go out and I'd run up the credit cards and pull as much money, pull
all the money outta the banks and close the accounts
and then stop paying. - And you said a lot of people knew. - Yeah.
- So he was one of the people and then-
- He was one of the people. - Why do you think nobody said anything? - I, well, I mean, I think
everybody was making money. The appraiser at that
time, I had an appraiser. Eventually I order the appraisal software and I just start doing
the appraisals myself. Like, why give this guy 500 bucks? So.
- So you were doing the appraisal yourself, - Bro, I'm doing it.
- How's that possible? How's that? Is there a check against the, is there- - There is. It's just funny, nobody
ever questions that. You actually have to have a license to get the appraisal software. So I get an appraiser's
that we're working with, I get her license and I create an email address as her. - Ah, so it was a synthetic appraiser. - Right, it was a real person. But I end up ordering the
appraisal software by emailing, it was called Alamo,
Alamo Appraisal Software. So I end up emailing them as her and they go, "Well, we can't give you, we can't sell you the software unless we, we need a
copy of your license." Boom, here's your license. So I send her the, I send them the license and then we pay for it with a credit card. You know, you could go
get like a green dot card, you go put 500 bucks on it or 1,000. The software was like
1500 bucks or something. So you pick them like back then, you know, it was a long time ago. So 1500 bucks, they mail it to us and now I've got the software. So now I can, you know, I
can do the appraisals myself. - What stops you from appraising it not for 200,000, but even more? - There's no comparable sales. So no matter what you sent to the bank, they're gonna look at it. Like they're gonna have a, their in-house appraiser is
going to do a desktop review. He's gonna go online, he is gonna check to make sure all the appraise,
all of the comparable sales are sold for what you said they sold for, are the same square footage, were built, what the pictures look like,
where, how far they are, he's gonna double check everything, but you know, he's some
guy who's on salary and he does, you know, whatever, 40 or 50 of these a day or something. It doesn't take him long.
And so it's cheaper that way where we pay for the appraiser,
appraisals, the whole thing. - Got it. So everybody's getting paid. - Right. And so at this
point, I'm doing that, right? You know, and I'm getting
caught periodically. - Can you give an example? What
do you mean getting caught? - I'm living in Tampa Heights, which is right next to
Ybor City in Tampa, right? So this is all, these are
all like little suburbs of Tampa and they're all built
back in the 1920s, right. 1890s, 1910, 1920. So I've bought this eight unit building. I renovated it into a triplex. I mean, I'm driving an
Audi, I'm dating a woman that I should not have been dating. Like, I mean, I don't know
what she was thinking. So I'm, you know, you're
going on vacations, like everything, life's good. So, but every once in a
while, you know, like where, you know where things
happen, you get a phone call, "Hey, this is what just happened." And one time I got a phone
call from same broker, Kelly. Kelly called me up and said,
"Listen, we got a problem." This was, I wanna say this was Allen Duncan. This was one of the first
ones that I had done, right? But we used him, but, and so he, so she calls me up and says, "Listen, Allen Duncan never made his
first mortgage payment." And I had a friend of mine, or one of my co-defendants when we closed on that loan, we both got checks for
whatever, 40 or 50 grand. Keep in mind, we're also buying, some of this money's going
into a business account. We're buying property, we're buying, so it's not like I'm pocketing
hundreds of thousands of dollars, or even, you know, even 20 or $30,000 on every closing. I'm more like, I'm getting 25, 10, 20, and this guy's getting 10
and this guy's getting 15, and then we're taking 60 and we're putting it into
the business account. We're buying a bunch of vacant lots, or we're building some new houses. So we're trying to kind of take all this and turn it into a development company, but we still have to pay our bills. So, you know, my buddy's
gotta go to, he's gotta go to Amsterdam at least
for two weeks, you know. - Right.
- He's from Belgium. That's you, apparently you have to do that at least once a year. So so when I gave him
his check, the check, I said, "Look, you're gonna make the pay, here's the like 20 grand or 15 grand, but you gotta make the
payments on this thing for the next six months." He goes, "No problem." I said, "Okay." So she calls me up a
month and a half later and says, "Hey, Allen Duncan did not, did not make his first payment." And I went, "Oh my God." And he was actually renting the apartment downstairs from me. So I run downstairs and I open the door and I go, "Bro," I'm like, "Did
you make Duncan's payment?" And he turns around and
he is like, "Is it due?" And I was like, "Oh my God." So I run back, you know,
I grabbed the phone. I'm like, "He didn't make
it. He didn't make it." She's like, "Okay, well
here's what's happening. The account executive is
calling. They've got the file." And it was called, it was South Star Bank. "South Star Bank has it. They reviewed it. They've already been ordering documents. they're saying that this
guy, there's a problem. They are, it's it's falling apart. Like the whole thing's falling. They know something's wrong." - But they don't know exactly what, it's just something suspicious or what? - That she didn't tell
me that on the phone. - Okay.
- Like she's saying there's something wrong,
they're freaking out. - Yeah.
- Because the account executive didn't really know. She just got a phone call saying, "Hey, have you ever met this broker?" Did she meet the guy? Who
is the guy, he hasn't paid. "We're calling the cell.
Nobody's answering." And really most of this
was my buddy Rudy's fault. He's just not doing any of this stuff, any of the things he's
supposed to be doing. So we go to the office and I call South Star
Bank, I get the secretary and I said, "Look, I need to talk to" whatever the guy, the big guy was. It was one of them was like the president and one was like the somebody else. Anyway, vice president. So I said, "I need to talk to
so-and-so the vice president." And she says, "I'm sorry,
he's in a business meeting." I said, well, "Listen, tell
him this is Allen Duncan, like you need to go tell him it's, Allen Duncan's on the phone right now. I assure you he wants to talk to me." And she's like, "All right, hold on." And I mean, like 20
seconds later, you know, speakerphone, "Hey, Mr.
Duncan, this is so and so, and you know, I'm here with our lawyer and the president of the
bank and our head of fraud. We were just discussing you." And I was like, okay, I
understand that you guys are, I haven't made my first payment." I said, "It actually
came back in the mail. I had the wrong address.
That was completely my fault. And I apologize." I said, "But I can get you
a cashier's check today. I will overnight it. No problem.
Hope that's gonna be okay." I said, they said, "Way,
we're way past that, way past that." I said, "Okay, well
what's, what's the issue?" And they were like, "I
mean, look, to be honest, I don't think I'm talking to Allen Duncan. I don't think there is an Allen Duncan." He's like, "I mean, your Social Security number
was issued a couple years ago. We called the bank and this was, we had gone with like South
or SunTrust Bank, right? So it was a real bank, so
it wasn't our normal bank. And they called, they don't, they don't have any record of you." And I was like, "Well,
I've never been happy with South Star Bank there if, you know, it sounds like a banking error." And they're, and they're like, "Yeah, I don't think, this isn't cute." - He says, "I don't think I'm talking to Allen Duncan right now." - Right.
- And you were- - Terrified.
- You're just. - Terrified, I'm not.
- But you have to be playing it cool I guess. - I mean, I know, what am I gonna say? No, you're talking to Matt
Cox. Like, I can't say that. Like, I'm just gotta keep running with it. Just like, okay, well look, you know, and he's like, you know, "We
called the DMV, this, you know, they don't have a list
of you in the, you know, in their website. We think that the, you know,
we don't think you exist. You know, we're still
waiting for a phone call back from who, so and so and so and so and so," and I'm just like, "Oh my God." And I said, "Have you called, have you called the authorities yet?" And they were like, "No, we haven't. But once we put our
file together, we will." And then the head of the
fraud department, they said, "Oh, by the way, Mr." I forget his name, "But the head of the fraud department, the head worked for the
FBI for like 10 years or something, or 12 years." And so I mean, I'm just like, and by the way, the broker is there, and my buddy Rudy is there. And I mean, there, he's pacing the room. She's in tears crying. Like they're, and I'm
like, "Okay, well fellas," I say, "Where's this headed? Where's this going? What are we doing?" And so they're kind of
chuckling and joking about it. And I remember being like,
thinking, what's the deal? Like, it's weird. And I said, "Look, well, why don't I just, lemme just pay you back." They said, "Ah, we'll get the money. We're not worried about it," I
said, "You don't seem worried about the money, about
getting any of the money back. Like, don't, why don't you just let me, I'll cut you a check. I can get you the money back. Like what do I," I owed
him like 150 or something. I forget exactly. It was nothing. I'm like, "I owe you 150,000, lemme cut your check for 150,000." And they were like, "No,
no, you know, that's, we'll get the money back when
we foreclose on the property." And that's when I was like, "Oh, they think the property's worth
like $195,000 or something." And I went, "Oh, I said, I understand. Okay, so do you have the
appraisal in front of you?" And they were like, "Yeah." And I said, "Open it up." I said, 'Take a look at comp number one. That's owned by a guy
named, you know, Lee Black. Comp number two, you know, is
owned by, you know, whatever, David Silver, whatever the names were." And I'm like, "You know,
like Black, Silver, Red. I said, I am all those people." And I said, "Lemme tell
you what I've done." And I tell them, just lay it out. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I said, "So you can call the FBI, but you're not gonna
get all your money back. Or you could let me
give you your money back and we can let this, we
can let sleeping dogs lie. The whole thing goes away, I apologize. You know, I had every intention
of making all the payments. It's a glitch. You caught me. No, my bad." And so these guys are
just like, "Oh my God." Like now they're, they put me on hold, they're looking through the file. They come back and I remember
at some point we go back, forth, back and forth and
finally they come back and they said, "Listen,
you still have the money?" I said, "Yeah." Well first they come
back, they threaten me. "Oh well when we give this to the FBI, you're," and I said, "That's not true." I said, 'The money was
deposited into a bank account. It has since been moved. The bank account has been closed,
it's been removed in cash. That money is gone. You
will never see that money. I will be cutting you if
I pay you back at all, it'll be from another account." And so the FBI agent ends
up saying, "He's right. Even if we caught him red
handed, the likelihood that any of these funds will be
ever be recouped is zero. Like, there's almost no
money's ever recouped." And so we end up, they
put me on hold again. They come back and they go, "How quickly can you get
us a cashier's check?" And I go, and like, that day I go get them a cashier's check overnight, the cashier's check. They never called the FBI,
they never did anything. Now, at that point, we
actually ditched that whole, that James or Allen Duncan. I remember at that point
we went to the mall, ran up all the credit cards
and just threw everything away and walked away because it was shot. You know, that whole, that guy was shot. I think we borrowed whatever, $800,000 or 900,000 in his name. - So with the banks, it's really, really all about the money. - That, listen, when I go on the run, I got one where I was caught
so red-handed, it's insane how bad it was. And listen, that's nothing. I got caught by Washington
Mutual one time. I was caught by Washington
Mutual, where we had done six owner occupied duplexes. So if you say you're
gonna live in a house, you can get about 95% financing. But if it's an investment
property, you gotta put down 20%. You get about 80% financing. So a buddy of mine who
was a sheriff's deputy, we had his wife buy, I'm gonna say six owner occupied duplexes, saying she lived in
every single one of them. Well, you can't own or
occupy six dwellings. Like, that's fraud. Now granted, her W-2s and
pay stubs were correct, but she didn't put the down payments down. Even the down payments we didn't put down, we actually got cash back. But months later, a lawyer from Washington Mutual ends up calling the mortgage broker and saying that they ended up with two of the owner occupied duplexes because Washington
Mutual had a credit line extended to one of the
lenders who'd lent the money. So it actually was Washington Mutual. So it was a couple months
later when they went to sell it in a, you know, they package
them together and sell them. They realized we have the same
customer with two duplexes, side by side, both owner occupied. This is fraud. So she comes in, she tells me, "Oh my gosh, this lawyer's on the phone. This is what happened." I'm like, "Oh wow, this is horrible." I end up getting on the phone with him. We have a huge, we have a conversation. And I'm like, you know, he's like, "Look, you know, this is a big deal. We could call the FBI." I am like, "Look, who knows
who was involved in this. Maybe somebody on your side was involved. Maybe somebody on my side. I don't know what my mortgage broker did. I'll deal with her on my own. Why don't you just let us
refinance the properties?" Not only did we talk him into allowing us to refinance the properties,
he gave us a reduced, a reduced balance of what we owed him because we couldn't borrow
enough to pay him off. So they took like a $20,000 hit just to refinance those properties. Never called the FBI, never did any, we was absolutely fraud. Yeah, I had a broker
one time we got caught with over a million dollars in loans that he had done that were fraudulent. Pinnacle Bancorp, which
was out of a Chicago. The owner called me and he was like, "Look, your
mortgage broker did this." Like, there was a bunch
of canceled checks. They were fake canceled checks. So they looked like they
had run through the bank for somebody's rent, but they hadn't. Does that make sense? - Yeah.
- Like you pay your rent, they deposit it, it goes to the bank and they've got all the
numbers and everything. Well, I had a bunch that were blank that all you had to do was sign, fill out your borrower's information, and then you cut and pasted
his name and his address at the upper left hand corner. You make a copy of it, it
looks like canceled checks. We had 24 of them. Well, one of my brokers was
using them for all of his files. Like even if the person
really had a rental history, he didn't wanna order it, he
just did this, it was easier. - It's faster, yeah.
- Yeah. Just an idiot. - Wow.
- So they catch $1 million worth of loans. They call me up and then they
caught another $1 million but they had already sold
them to Household Bank. So while I'm on the phone with the owner, his name's Gary, and we're talking, he's like, "Look, this is what we found. This is this, this is what happened." And I remember I said, "Gary, at the end of this conversation, if you think I'm cutting
you a check for $1 million, I said, I just don't have it. I don't have it." And this was when I owned
the mortgage company. And he says, "No, I, what
I'm asking you for your word that if any of these come back
on us, they're in Florida, they're in your area,
you'll help us get rid of the properties, we'll foreclose. We're gonna have to resell them. I don't wanna be flying down there. Just help us get rid of them." I said, "Absolutely,
of course, no problem." I said, "What about the," I said, "Well, what are
you gonna do with them?" He goes, "Well, they're
gonna be a part of a package, like a $3 million package we're
selling to Household Bank. The other ones they had
caught had already been sold. The ethical thing to do is to contact Household Bank,
say, "We'll buy those back. We are gonna take care of." It's not what happened. In fact, Gary flew down
a couple weeks later, took me and several of the
brokers, not that broker, but several of the brokers out
to dinner, had a few drinks and he openly admitted, he's
like, "Look, I don't care if all the loans have fraud in them, as long as they don't come back on me. That's what I'm concerned about." 'Cause there's a clawback
clause for one year. He's like, "So if they can perform for one year, I don't care." That was it. - How many people in the industry do you think are operating like this? And by like this, I mean, in
the aforementioned gray area. - I would say there's
probably after like the, like after the 2008 financial crisis, I would say it cleaned up considerably. But I would say at this point it's just as bad as it ever was. And keep in mind these, a lot of the loans that caused the problems
were like, you know, they called them liar loans or you know, no qualification like,
no qual loans, right? No income. Well, those loans are, they exist again, like there are subprime companies
that are doing that again. They don't, I don't think they
call them subprime anymore. They call them, so they
got some other name. - Yeah. Rebranded.
- Yeah, they've rebranded a little bit, but it's
happening all over again. - It just seems the whole, the whole real estate
slash banking system is very prone to this kind of corruption. - I mean, but how can you fix it? Like, a lot of the things, they fixed, a lot of the manipulation they fixed. But if you tighten it too much, then the average person can't get a loan. You know, and the thing is, some of these loans
sometimes changing a W-2, you know, should that person
have gotten into that house? No, he shouldn't have. He didn't qualify. But he makes all of his payments. So it's like, is it a fraudulent loan? Yeah, but it performs. So, you know, I think
that, I would say that, I forget what the FBI statistic was. It was like 20% or 30% prior to the two thou prior to the financial crisis,
it was like 20 or 30% of like bank loans they were saying that contains some kind of fraud, even if it was just a lie. You know, if you want
to cut 30% out of the, you know that's a ton, that's a ton. - So you're on probation and you're doing these,
you're almost getting caught. You are almost getting caught. And you're doing these
really large scale scams. How does it get to the point
where you're on the run? - So I'm doing multiple scams, right? So it's not just that I'm doing the scams with the "Reservoir Dog" scams, right? I'm not just doing those guys. - Yeah.
- I'm also creating other identities because
I've got other people that are involved. They want to do a scam. So this chick I was dating. She wanted to run a scam. So I set up a scam. It's semi complicated,
but the bottom line is she ends up stealing a real person. We steal a real person's identity. I have a real person's identity. We get a driver's license in her name, open up some bank
accounts, go rent a piece of property in her name,
and I transfer the deed or the deed from the property
out of the real owner's name. I transfer it into her stolen identity. We then refinance the house
like three or four times. And so she starts going to
these different closings and she's, her name is Alison. And she's pretending to
be a Puerto Rican woman named Rosie Duprez. Alison has brown hair and blue eyes. Rosie Duprez clearly doesn't.
- Yeah. - So Alison, when we make the
ID, she dyes her hair black, curls it a little bit and gets the pictures taken of herself. But before she goes to the
first closing to get a check for like $100,000, we've got like three of these scheduled. She changes her hair color. Like she dyes it back like a dirty blonde. And she goes to the first closing and she gets a check, a
check for 100,000 let's say, I don't know what it was, like 95 or 105, whatever, roughly $100,000. She gets a check at the
closing, they give it to her. We then go to the next closing. Well, at the next closing, the title person has her
sign all the documents. But she's looking at her
like, something's not right. Looks at her ID, makes a
copy of the ID, looks at it and says, "This doesn't look like you." And she's like, you know,
"You don't look Hispanic." And she's like, "I'm half Hispanic. What, what do you, what?" And she's like, "You don't, I mean," but keep in mind the photograph was her. So she's saying, "This
doesn't look like you," but it's her, granted she
had, you know, the curly hair a little bit, but that's it. So Alison is like, "It's me." And she's like, "Look, I'm
not gonna give, cut you. I'm not gonna give you the check." I'm gonna, let's just sign the documents. You know, we can get,
you can get the check. I'll let you know." So she goes, gets in my car. She said, "Yeah, listen,
there's a problem." So we're driving down the
road, she explains it to me, I realize, you know, okay, that's done. It's over. We're not going back. She's like, "What about
the other closing?" "No, no, no more closings. We're done." And you know, and it was
probably more of a yell, screaming and yelling. Like, "What the hell did you do? I told you not to change your hair. Why would you change your hair?" Like that, when she came
in like, the day before. And I was like, "What did
you do? What did you do?" And she's like, "I changed my hair. What's the big deal? It's still me." Sure enough. You know, and that's
like, it's not that I knew that that was gonna
happen, but why tempt fate? - How'd you meet Alison? Like, what was-
- She was a mortgage broker. - Oh, okay.
- And I had done some fraudulent, she needed, she worked for another mortgage company. Sorry, she worked for
another mortgage company. She couldn't get a loan closed. The owner of that
mortgage company called me and said, "Look, we got a
loan, we need it closed." And I said, "Great." And I, when guys would call me, I'd say, "Great, I'll come pick it up. I'll give you a $300 or
a $500 referral fee." "No, no, it's a couple
hundred thousand dollars. We want to close it." "Well, if you, then close it." "Well, I can't close it. We need a W-2 or we
need this, we need that. We can't figure out how to do it." So I go over there and typically I convince
them, just give it to me, or it's not gonna close. She was, you'd have to see this chick. She was gorgeous. She was gorgeous. Very flirtatious. Made me feel like I was thin and handsome. So like, she gets whatever she wants. - Yeah.
- So I'm like, "Okay, look, here's what you do." And I explained to her,
do this, do this, do this. Send it here, it'll close. And we closed it. Well, then she starts calling me, right? "Hey, how's it going?" We go to lunch, next thing you know, we start sleeping together. She realizes what's happening. She says, "I want in on this."" So now we do the closings. We're on our way. I say, "Look, that check's dead." She goes, 'What about the
other, the other one?" I go, "No, no, it's all
dead. We're walking away." Now, it was easy for me to say, because for me, I had money. She's going through a
divorce, she's broke. You know, like, none of this
did I take into consideration at the time, by the way, to me it's like, nah,
that's dead, we're done. We'll start over again. Well, and she's, to her, in her
mind, she was about to make, we were getting probably that
was a million dollar scam. She was about to end up getting,
you know, whatever it was, half or one third of half a million
dollars in the next week. Now she's got nothing. So, she says, "Look, let's
at least cash this one." And I had a buddy named Travis Hayes who had been, you know, we actually were, we've been friends since high school. We were like best friends, right? Really close friends in high school. We were still close. Travis was running a scam. This one, hers was in
Clearwater, his was in Orlando. So I'm all, I'm getting all over the state at this point, right? So he's running an Orlando scam that's already yielded
half a million, maybe more. He's still pulling, we're still refinancing properties, right? So he's about to close on another half a million
dollars worth of properties. He's got a bank account that's open. She says, "Let's give it to Travis, have him deposit it in his account." He's already pulled out like
300,000 out of the account. And she's like, "Shouldn't be a problem." I was like, "No, no, no." And
she goes, "Let me call him." She calls him, I think I called him. And, and I explained the situation. He said, "You think it's okay?" And I said, "No, I don't think it's okay. I don't think it's okay at all." And he's like, "No, it's not a big deal. Just gimme the check." So I give him the check, he
goes, he deposits the check. They say they're gonna
hold it till it clears. You know, that was kind
of a thing back then. It takes, I don't know, I don't know how long it took. Five days, six days, whatever
it was, he was supposed to go back and it would've cleared. And he would've been able
to start pulling money out. And so I call him one day,
'cause Alison's bugging me. So I call him and I go,
"Hey, where are you at?" He goes, "I'm actually
on my way to Orlando." And I said, "Oh, okay, so you," "But let Alison know I'm
not getting any money." He said, "The bank manager called and said that because the check was over $100,000, they have to witness me
endorsing the back of the check." Or they had to see my something, right? And for me to come in,
I'm like, "Whoa, whoa." I said, "Something's
wrong. Something's wrong. Don't go to the bank." "What do you think's wrong?" I go, "I think the cops
are waiting for you. That's what I think's wrong." And he goes, "No, the cops aren't." He goes, "Man, I'm in the
parking lot right now. I just pulled into the
parking lot. There's no cops." I'm like, "They're not
gonna be in squad cars." Like, and he's like,
"No." He said, "It's fine. You're overreacting, bro." And I'll never forget what he said. He said, "You're shaking like
a little girl, bro. Calm down. I got this. I'm cool with the manager." Like the manager, like, because you've chopped
it up with the manager, he's gonna let your
fraudulent check go through. So he walks in, the cops are
in there, they locked the door. He just told me later, you
know, they closed the door, locked it, the cops are
in there, they grab him and they bring him downtown. He didn't say anything. You
know, he won't say anything. That's not true, by the way. But he's, so here's what he told me. He wouldn't say anything. "I told him, I ain't
talking to you, coppers." - Oh, he told.
- Yeah. - [Lex] He told you, but
he actually did tell them. - He actually did talk to them. So, what he ends up doing, what ends up happening is we
can't get in touch with him. So we're calling and calling, calling. And then finally I decide, you know what, I'm not gonna call his cell phone anymore. I'm gonna call the name
of the person he was, the synthetic identity's number, right? So I go and I call the
synthetic identity's number. I call and I say, somebody answers. And I go, "Hey, is so-and-So there?" And he said, and it's a
gruff, authoritarian voice. You know, this is law enforcement. And he's like, "No, who's this?" He goes, "No," he goes, "No,
this is officer so-and-so who's this?" And I go, I was like, "This
is Lee Black," I said. He said, he goes, "How
do you know so-and-so?" I was like, "Oh, no, no,"
click. And I just hung up. And I called from like a payphone. So I turned around and I
said, "He got arrested." And then later on that night, he showed up on the county website, you
know, the arrest website showing he had been arrested. And the next day he calls me and he asks me to get him outta jail. Like, "Hey, I, you gotta go." So I have to give his
brother-in-law money, you know, we get him outta jail. He actually got out.
- For bail? - Yeah, he got out for like nothing. And here's what I should have known. Like he was cooperating. It went from like $300,000
bond down to like $10,000. So it's 1,000 bucks. So right then, I didn't know it at
the time, but obviously that means we're gonna let him outta jail. He's cooperating. So
they let him outta jail. I go and I get him a lawyer, a state, this was state by the
way, it wasn't federal. So I get him a lawyer for like $15,000. He come, you know, he comes, you know, of course he tells me, "Look, they asked me a bunch of questions. I told him that, you know, he made up some story about he's working with another guy, but he
doesn't know the guy's name. He made up a name. Like there's a whole, he
has this whole kind of thing where he tells them about me, but not me. And he's like, and the,
you know, the numbers, none of the numbers led anywhere. So they all lead to cell phones that are only being used for those scams. So it's a dead alley or blind alley. And I'm like, "Okay, okay." And I'm mean, I'm paying him
like he's coming in, "Man, my truck's no good. I need another truck."
I buy him another truck. "Hey man, my electric's
gonna get turned off. And I don't have. Oh, I need $1,000." "Of course. Here's $1,000. I don't know what I was, I'm
embarrassed you had to ask, here's 1,000," you know? And a week later, you know,
he needs 2,000 for this, 1,000 for this, 2,000 for this. He wants to start a tree trimming company. He needs to buy a tree
trimmer. "How much are those?" "5,000," of course, that's fine, 10." So I give him another 25,000, starts like a tree trimming business, which he runs to this day, what I don't know is that,
you know, the whole time he's actually working with a task
force that's been put together. - Federal, or?
- This is state at this point. It's a state task force, 'cause there's multiple
counties involved at this point. And it wasn't hard for him to
explain like this comes back to "Reservoir Dogs." I got a much, all he had
to say to the officers was, "Listen, you gotta let me go. I can't do any prison time. I'm gonna tell you about
a much, much bigger scam." And they go, "Okay, well how
can you prove that scam?" "Pull up Hillsborough County, Hillsborough County's
tax appraiser website. Okay, look up the name James Red. Look, all of these were
bought six months ago. Six months later, they're
all in foreclosure. Pull up Lee Black. All of these were bought. Look, six months later, all
of them are foreclosure. Hey, pull up James Red. You know pull up Brandon Green, pull up." So all of these are going in foreclosed. I mean, it's so, it's like, you know, that what I thought was so cute, not cute. It was just stupid. And so he very quickly, they
put together a task force. He's working with them on the task force. And, we're still buying houses, flipping houses, doing everything, 'cause I believe him. I believe he's not, you know, he's saying, "Look, if I have to go to jail
for, you know, a year or so, like, you know, and he
is also paying, you know, he hasn't paid them back yet. But we're saying he can pay them back. Like it's like, "Look, if we
get to the point, you know, when we get to that point,
like we'll pay them back," but we haven't paid him back yet, 'cause we have no way to show
where that money came from. We can always go to like
one of his relatives and give his dad 40 grand, give his mom 20 grand, you
know, that kind of stuff. And start putting money that way. And all that money was
taken out in cash too. So we could always show up with
a chunk in cash regardless, you know, it's still in the process. And I think that we're
still in the process and it could be six months or a year away, 'cause it's a slow
thing, I've already been through the process my
first time when I got in trouble and it was a year. But from the time that I was spoken to until I pled guilty and was sentenced. So I'm not concerned about it. Well that's happening. We're still flipping properties. And one day, I have a buddy named Steve Sutton, remember, the sheriff's deputy. And keep in mind, it's funny because like I've done bad
loans for police officers, sheriffs, lawyers, doctors,
like, you know, across, everybody across these
aren't like all, you know. - Yeah. Everybody.
- Guys that, you know, these aren't all like, you
know, construction workers or guys that work in, you know,
or mechanics or something. These are like the legitimate,
these are legitimate people that have credit problems
or whatever the case may be. So one day I'm sitting at work and I'd been getting phone calls for the prior week from people
at title companies saying, "Hey, Matt, wanted to let you know we just had some subpoenas
served on several of your files." And I'm concerned, like
that had me concerned. Then a guy named Jeff Testerman
starts making phone calls. Jeff Testerman is a reporter
for the "St. Petersburg Times." He's calling people saying, "Hey, I know, noticed that
you sold a piece of property to Lee Black, have you
ever met Mr. Black?" He assumes like, and they're
like just hanging up on him or saying, "No, I don't know
what you're talking about. I'm not sure what that guy's
name was. Lemme call you back." And I'm getting phone calls from people. So I know something's up
with the newspaper now, now I know something's being looked at, but nobody's really talking. I know that there are
subpoenas being served and I'm nervous, you
know, I'm very concerned. And then one day I'm in my office and the sheriff's deputy
walks in Steve Sutton in his uniform too, which
everybody always stiffened, you know, when he would walk in. So he walks in, I go, "Steve,"
I said, "What's going on?" He said, and usually he's
jolly and laughs and stuff. And he goes, and he says, "I
gotta talk to you outside." I was like, "Okay." I
walk outside, "What's up?" And he says, "I used to
date this girl in the like the Tampa Police
Department or something, right?" And I was like, "Okay." He said, "She showed up
at my house this morning at like six o'clock in the morning." And I went, "Okay." He said, "She said that she's
been working on a task force. And he said, apparently one
of your buddies got arrested in Orlando, they're investigating some other thing in Clearwater. They're investigating a ton of properties here in Ybor, Tampa Heights. And I mean there's like a
hundred properties involved. And my name came up because you've sold some
properties to me," which I had. And, and he is like, "So she came to me and said, 'Look, your
buddy Cox,'" he said, and I go, I was like, "Okay." He goes, he said, "Well,
the task force is on you. And she said to stop talking to you because they're gonna come
arrest you in a couple days. They just handed over
the task force findings to the FBI and the FBI is
going to come arrest you in a couple days. And she said not to talk to you because you're going to cooperate and because all white
collar guys cooperate. So she thinks you're gonna cooperate and not to talk to you, 'cause she's afraid you're
gonna get me hemmed up. And she said, just to walk away." And he was like, "So I
thought you should know." And I was like, "Okay." And he said, "What are you gonna do? I said, "Oh, I'm, you know, I don't," well first he said, "What should I do?" And I go, "Tell them,
tell them that I arranged all the loans for you. You came in, you signed the paperwork, I filled out all the documents,
you signed the paperwork, you know, I arranged everything." I'm like, "You're not a mortgage broker. You don't know if this is legit. Like you sign, you have perfect credit. You signed the paperwork, you walked away with a check for 30,000. You don't know."
- Yep. - And he was like, 'cause he
didn't, 'cause he had a job. He was a sheriff's deputy. Like, I'm not a, you know. I went in, I applied for a loan at a bank. They said, "We can buy,
you can buy the house and we'll give you $30,000." So of course I'm gonna do that. You know, that's not gonna happen. But he doesn't know and
I said, "Just tell them, yeah, tell him you'll
cooperate like, absolutely." He goes, "What are you
gonna do? I said, "Me?" I said, "I'm leaving, bro. I'm leaving." I said, "I can't stay
here. I can't go to prison. Like, I was just sentenced. I'm on federal probation right now. Like, the judge isn't gonna be cool with me getting popped again. Like, I mean, I can't do it. Can't do it." I said, "I'm leaving. Can't go to prison. I'm adorable, bro. Like, you know, I can't, I
saw "Shawshank Redemption." I know what's gonna happen. I can't."
- You're too good looking. - Yeah, I can't do that.
That's not gonna happen. Like, I can't, you know, I can't, I'm not gonna defend myself against a guy who's six foot three and tatted up. No, so, and you know, and I can't, I'm no benefit to a gang. Like, I'm not, I'm a
nonviolent, you know, soft, white collar criminal. So I was just like, I was like, "Yeah, I'm leaving, bro, I'm leaving." So I actually went home. Well actually, I was able to, I started cutting checks to people, right? So I cut checks to Alison, to Johnny, to like, everybody I could think of. Here's 5,000, here's 7,000, here's 8,000, here's six, here's nine. And had them going to all
these different bank accounts, pulling out cash. But this is like a
Thursday at four o'clock. So the next day they show up with cash, write some more checks, they go again. I get about 80 grand in
cash. That's all I can get. I go home that night, I start packing my bags and I was dating this
chick named Rebecca Hauck. We've been dating about a month. And she shows up at my house. You know, I hadn't returned
our phone calls all day, and apparently we're supposed to go out and I'd forgotten about
it, I had bigger issues. And so I'm packing a couple of
duffle bags and she walks in and she's like, 'What's going on?" I'm like, "I'm leaving." "Where are you going? I thought we were supposed
to go out and such and do something tonight." I'm like, "I'm leaving. It's over." And she says, "What happened?" And I tell her what happened,
this is what happened. She's like, "Oh my God."
Like she had no idea. - Oh, she had no idea about
anything you were doing? - No, I barely knew her. Like, I mean, she's coming over two, three times a week for a month. Like, I've, you know, this isn't
love, this isn't, you know, this is a booty call. That's all it is, like, we're hanging out, we're having sex and that's it. I don't even know you, so, she suddenly just begs to come with me. "You gotta bring me with you. You have to this, you have to that." I'm like, "What are you talking about? Like, you've got a son, you have your mom lives here, your," and she's just in tears and crying. And she suddenly said, and this is what's so funny about it is that she had just moved
from Vegas to St. Petersburg to work at the dog track,
to work for a company that owned the dog track, right? The, a casino interest or a, yeah, like a gambling company. And she said, "You don't
even know why I'm here." I was like, "Okay, why are you here?" She said, "I'm here because
I was working for a law firm that worked for the casino
company that I worked for." She said, I got caught
embezzling like nothing. It was like 10 or $15,000 from my boss," because she had a gambling habit. And she said, "He didn't call the police because we were sleeping together and he was afraid his
wife would find out." She said, "So instead, he banished me here to St. Pete. My son just came to live with me." He's been caught sneaking out because the father had raised him. He'd only been living with
her since she got to Florida. And she's like, "I was about,
I was gonna send him back. He's failing school. He's smoking pot. He's been caught sneaking
out after curfew." I'm like, "Oh, okay. I didn't,
I don't know any of this." She's like, "He was going
back in December," you know, or no, he was going back
after the school year, which would've been like, May. Okay, and I'm like, so where before five minutes earlier, I thought she was this sweet secretary, sweet innocent secretary
and she's like, you know, "I've been married three times. I am a gambler. I've claimed bankruptcy. I'm sleeping with my old boss." I got like, you know, she
went from this, you know, thieving, adulteress, you know, and I thought, these are
all really beneficial to my, you know, my future plans. - Yeah.
- You know, and I shouldn't have at that moment, you know, I was so just
flipped out and concerned and up and leaving your life and everything you know, behind. That's terrifying. And you know, and so now you're alone in a strange place in a place you've- - Is that the first time you've
done something like that? Like leave to go on the road? - Yes, so I'd never just up and moved and keep in mind now, I can't call home. I can't, like, I'm leaving. There are things that I
feel like get you caught. And every, you know, I've
watched tons of these TV shows and, you know, there are certain
things that get you caught. And you know, one of them
is keeping in contact with anybody in your old life. So I'm thinking that's not gonna happen. Like, I'm not contacting anybody. I'm leaving and that's it.
That didn't really happen. I kept in touch, I called my
mom every once in a while, but I was like, "Okay, that's cool." - Did the loneliness of
that hit you early on or no? Like the, as you were packing?
- I never, I never did. Well- - You're leaving your life. I mean, there's a, it feels like a fundamental transition. - Oh, listen. You think? I mean, listen, not just that. Like, I'm leaving my son, I have a son and I am, you know, I
was leaving everything. I was just terrified of going to prison. And, you know, I mean, I don't know, it was just, it was just so stupid. It was just arrogance. And, you know, I should have stayed, like, I made things so much worse. But I also thought I'm smart. I can figure this out. Like
I can change my identity. Blend in. I'll be fine. - Aren't you already, like, people know what your face looks like? - They do. They do. But I, one of the first things I did was I got plastic surgery. - [Lex] What kind of plastic surgery? - I've got a nose job. I got what they call a mini facelift. They go in through your back of your ears and they suck out all
the fat in your neck. - [Lex] Does that change appearance much? - A little bit. I got, I was balding. I got a two hair transplants,
you know, two hair grafts. So the hair in my head,
this isn't my hair, it's my hair, but it's from back here. So there's, they cut it from here and they.
- It looks great. - I appreciate it. So they reimplanted it there,
you know, got liposuction, just some, you know, other stuff and, you know, got my teeth
done, that sort of thing, you know, so, you know, and
that was kind of like my plan. I'll go, I'll take off, I got 80 grand, I'll steal some more money, you know, but I let her come with me and we ran up all my credit
cards over the next few days, packed up the car, traded in my Audi and got like an Audi, I
don't know, was it like an A6 or like a four door like the
big four door, whatever it was. Got that and drove straight to Atlanta. And, so I wrote a letter to my parents before I left, just explaining,
this is what's happening. I'm leaving, I'm done. I'm
not going to prison. Love you. Sorry.
- Sorry. - Sorry, sorry, I know I'm a
disappointment. Sorry. Bam. So I take off, go to Atlanta. When we went to Atlanta,
I already had the name of a guy named Scott Cugno that I'd done a loan for. So I had his, you know, his
vital information, right? Like I have his name, date of
birth, Social Security number, mother's maiden name,
and where he was born. One day we were having a conversation and I just slowly pried
all that out of him, right? Like, I already, we'd done a loan for him. So already had his name, date of birth, Social Security number. But I need to steal his identity. I need to know where he was born and his mother's maiden name. So through the course of a
conversation, I just pried, you know, hey, "You know, Cugno is that, you know, what is that? Is that like Irish? Is it?" "No, it's such and such." "Oh, what's your mom's name?" "Oh, such and such." "Oh, okay." - Yeah.
- You know? "Oh, were you born here? Or you born in, weren't you from?" "No, man, I was born
here, I was born in such," "Oh," Hillsborough County. You know, like, I, so it was no big deal. We get to Atlanta, I make
a fake ID for both of us, but keep in mind, I don't have, like, I don't have a driver's license. I do, but they're fake. Like, I can't give this to a cop. Can't give a driver's license
that says David Freeman. - What's David's residence?
Florida or is this Georgia? - No, this is Florida. Okay.
But it was just a made up name. - Okay.
- I'd gone to like high school with a kid named David Freeman. So I had an ID, but I
can't give that to a cop. Like, that's enough to
get like rent a place or do something or.
- Yeah. - So we go, go to Atlanta, make an ID, set it up,
make some business cards, set up a couple websites,
set up some, get a HQ, which is that like a,
it's a company that will, you can do virtual, you can rent virtual, you can rent offices. And they'll answer your phone for like a hundred bucks a
month and they'll forward them. So it seems like you have
an office and they'll, you know, they give you a
phone number that you call up and they say, you know,
"Hi, United Southern Bank," you know, and they'll answer
the phone and forward messages. So we get one of those, make
a business card for Becky, she rents a house from a
guy named Michael Shanahan. So we rent Michael Shanahan's
house, it's like $200,000, $200,000 house in Alpharetta. And I then go to Alabama, wait, I then order Scott
Cugno's birth certificate, Social Security card. I think I registered to vote in his name. And I made a lease agreement in his name and I think that's all I needed. And then I went to Alabama and got a driver's license in his name. So I went into the DMV, give
them all these documents and which are, almost all of them are real except for the lease. They said, "Sit over there,"
I sit over there, I sit down, boom, 20 minutes later I
have a driver's license. It's, you know, it's 20 something
dollars. It was nothing. So I get the driver's license. Now I'm driving this, I'm still
driving a car that, an Audi that is in the name of Matt Cox. So I parked that. I then go get Social Security to issue me a Social Security number in the name's Scott Cugno. And I then turn around
and I go and I get a loan. You put down 20, 30%,
there's all these first time or first time buyers, 30% down, rent, get like a Honda or something. So now we're living in a house,
we've got some furniture, bedroom furniture and I go downtown, I pull the title to this guy,
Michael Shanahan's house, and I go downtown and I
satisfy the loan on his house. So he had two loans with Bank of America. And so I create two satisfaction of loans from Bank of America. So Michael Shanahan owns a house in the name Michael Shanahan. He has one mortgage with Bank
of America and a second one. When you pay your mortgage off the way public records knows
it's paid off is they mail public records, a
Satisfaction of Mortgage. It's a one page document
and it's notarized. - [Lex] So you've got two of those. - I filled out two, I created two of them. I just ordered, you know,
you can do research. So when I went downtown, I researched Bank of America
Satisfaction of Mortgages and you know, thousands show up. So I just grab a couple of them and now I know what the basic template is. They're all, and they're
all different by the way. So it's, you know, it's not
like you even have to be that close, but whatever. I mimicked, some of them,
order, I had a notary stamp. Not hard to get, you
know, you just, you go in and you go into three different, you know, office Depots and you say, "Hey, I need a notary stamp." And you give them the information
and you come back four day or whatever, a week later
and they give it to you. So I've got these notary stamps. So I notarize the Satisfactions,
I go downtown, I file them, boom, the mortgages are gone. Keep in mind, Bank of America, he's still paying the mortgages. They don't know that
they've been satisfied in public records. They're not notified. So those are gone, but it takes about a month
or two for it to show up. Atlanta was that far behind. I think it was Fulton County,
they were just way behind. So we just kind of have to
dick around for a while, right? So we're going on little
vacations, we're going to New Orleans, we're
going to different places as Scott Cugno, driving
a car as Scott Cugno. We open up several bank accounts, we have multiple bank accounts, and then we end up going to Vegas. And we don't get, we do go to Vegas. But what happened was
we were driving around and I remember thinking, telling her, I was like, you know, "This is a problem. Like, we have to get real IDs, real driver's licenses. I mean, this is real, but
this is a real person too. And he may stumble across it." And so what I did was
I started running ads in magazines saying, "Home loans available, good
credit, bad credit, no problem. Call now, government loans,"
you know, "Government, you know, VA, FHA finance,"
you know, whatever. "Call this number." So people start calling and
I'm getting their information. One of the guys I got was Michael Eckert. Yeah, I remember Michael
Eckert, poor Michael Eckert. I actually legally changed his name to Michael Johnson at one point, but at this point it
was just Michael Eckert. So I don't, I wanted to see, you know, I'm bored. I want to see what the process is. How much does it cost? Is this possible? Lemme see if I can change this guy's name. It was, it was 1500 bucks, I changed it. - Without him ever showing up anywhere. So you can fake-
- Well, I have a driver's license in his name. - Right.
- I am him. So he did show up. He showed up at the lawyer's office. He, so, you know.
- Right. - So I'm, so I do that. I'm living in the house and
we're driving along one day and I'm saying, "Man, we gotta
get real, like these people that are calling, like that one guy, I get his information,
but during the course of taking the application,
and I'm asking like these, these government survey
questions, at the very end, there's like 20 questions
and I'm rambling them off. And at some point he was
like, he said he volunteered. Like I didn't, I never even asked anybody about criminal history. And he just, he ended up saying something, "Well, I do have a
felony, does that matter?" I mean, he's like, he was, "I mean, it was a DUI, I've had a couple DUIs, but I got my license back." And that was part of the
reason he had bad credit. And it was like, okay, no,
nope, it doesn't matter. Don't worry. I'm thinking
you're not getting a loan. So this is, I'm just taking your, I'm just stealing from you,
sharing your information. So I get all this
information, I'm gathering it. And so one of the things I said to Becky while we are sitting
at this stoplight is I'm like, "We gotta get real
people's real information." And I said, "Like for instance," I said, "What if I steal somebody's identity? I get a driver's license in his name, four states from where he lives and he gets a DUI? I could get pulled over two years later and get arrested for a DUI
that he got in Florida." And she's like, "Well, what
do you, what are you thinking? Are you thinking like criminals or are you thinking like, like prisoners, like mental patients?" Like, and I went, "I mean,
I don't," and I looked over and there was a homeless
guy holding a sign. And I went, "Like that guy." And I'll never forget, she
goes, she says, "The hobo?" like, I don't know who calls them hobos. And she's like, "The hobo?"
I said, "Yes, that guy." I said, "Hold on." Pulled over to a Subway, got out, she went inside to get Subway. I walk across the street,
pulled out like 20 bucks and I said, "Hey bro, can I ask you some quick
questions real quick?" He's like, "Yeah, what's up?" And I go, "Here's 20
bucks." I said, "Listen." I said, "When was the last time you were gainfully employed?" He's like, "Ah, whatever. 10 years." I'm like, "Oh, okay, do you
have a criminal record?" He's like, "Ah, I've been arrested and misdemeanors like,
you know, vagrancy," and he names off some things, you know, drunk in public, whatever. And I was like, "Are you on probation?" He goes, "I can't do probation. They don't give us probation.
They keep us for 90 days. They release us. Like they,
the judge knows I can't do, I'm not gonna show up for a probation." I'm like, "Okay, do you
have a driver's license?" He's like, "Maybe, I don't think so. I think it's just," I go,
"Is it, did you get DUI?" He's like, "No, I think
it's just expired." "Do you have a driver's license with you?" He's like, "No, I got nothing." I'm like, "Okay, well, you know," he told me he lived in
like a tent in the woods. And so I gave him like another 20 bucks, asked him a few more
questions and then, oh, and I remember in the middle
of it, he said, he goes, "What, are you taking
a survey or something?" And I went, I remember thinking, I go and I think, I go, I kind of chuckle. I go, "You get a lot of
surveyors out here?" like that. And he goes, "Yeah, and sometimes." And I was like, "Really?" He goes, "Yeah." He said, "Like, the," he
said, "People from like, you know, halfway houses"
and what did he say? "Social workers and stuff. They'll come out and they'll, you know, they'll pass out stuff and they'll ask us questions and stuff." And I'm like, "Oh, okay." And I was like, I thought
that's good to know. So I go back, I get, grab
Becky and she's like, "Oh," she's like, "Did
you give him money?" I said, "I gave him like 40
or 60 bucks or something." Forget what and she was like, "That's, what a waste of
money," I thought that was good. That was money well spent. I said, "That guy's perfect." I said, "That guy is, he's got everything. He has no way to be contacted. He has no documentation on him." I said, "He's not gonna drive a car. He's not gonna get a DUI,
he has an expired license. I just have to get his license
reinstated and I can be him." So I went home. I typed up a, what I called a federal statistical survey form. And I made a little thing.
I mean, I went online. I mean, I'm always filling out federal documents as a mortgage broker. So it looked identical. I mean, I had like this little,
like the recycle symbol. And it was like, you know,
"Federal Form 17017," you know. And so I print out these forms. I get a clip, go buy a clipboard. I make a little a Salvation
Army ID, I pin it on me. And I go out and I start-
- Doing surveys. - I start surveying homeless people. Don't judge me, bro. I was in a bad spot. I was in a bad spot. I see the
judgment. I see the judgment. Let's maintain civility here. Like stay neutral. Stay neutral. - So these homeless
guys, I mean, they have, they have a Social Security number. They have a birth certificate, I guess. I mean, they're a real person. - Right.
- They're a real person with- - They're just not
using their real person. - Yeah, they're not
actively, yeah, engaging with the economic system,
the financial system. They're not employed. They don't have housing, all that kind of. - They don't file taxes. They don't. So I, one of the questions
I even asked the guy at the, one of the last questions,
I said, "Do you believe that you will be gainfully employed within the next two years?" Every one of them said, no, no, no. So, you know, it was like, okay, they're not even, they're not even trying. And they all had alcohol problems or honestly, the few of them I talked to like was pretty clear. I mean, it takes literally five minutes, less than five minutes
to fill out the form. And I filled it out for him, of course. But even filling it out in that brief, just asking questions back
and forth, half of them, you could tell you've
got some mental illness, like something's not right with you. Like, these aren't guys
that are gonna go out and get, are going to get jobs. They're not cleaning up. So they were perfect for my purposes, as horrible
as I know that sounds, so. - Do you feel bad about
this little small tangent? - No. Do I feel bad about it? - The homeless people in society are really, it's a difficult life. Like dealing with mental illness, dealing with drug addiction,
all that kind of stuff. - I mean, listen, being in prison and then the kind, the people
that are in prison that, you know, are going to be homeless or have been homeless,
or the mental illness that I've dealt with in halfway houses and even doing this, I don't know what you
do with these people. I don't even know that you house them. You can't necessarily
even house them together. You know, they, they cause such problems. Like, I don't know what the solution is other than just kind of
keeping them fed maybe and keep them away from
normal people, you know, so they don't cause crime or whatever. I don't know about
housing them in one area. That seems like a mistake. Like there is absolutely no
good solution to that problem. None, because it's not like, "Hey, if, if we gave you a house or we gave you job training and we gave you this,"
okay, you might get 5%. - Yeah.
- 10. But most of them are on the street because they've just messed up
over and over and over again. And they just kind of gave up. - But, you know, I guess
we still have to remember that they're human beings. I mean, we mentioned off
Mike "Soft White Underbelly," and he highlights the humanity of people who've had
a real difficult life. He does it well. - He's, Mark Laita is
amazing. He's amazing. And one of the things he had
said was like, these are, he was like, "These are real people." And he's like, "Their stories." He's like, "They have stories
and they need," you know, but if you also talk to
Mark, he'll tell you, you can't just, you can't give them money. You can't, like, you can't. Like, he's tried every
time he's reached out and tried to help these
guys, put them in apartments, fed them, got them back on their feet, within six months they're back on, they're back on the
street, I mean, it just, it just happens over
and over and over again. I mean, I think the amount
of money that would have to be dumped into correcting
that problem, I don't know. I mean, you can say, "Well, yeah, but just, you know, you should do it because it's the right thing to do." I don't know who's paying for it. - It's complicated. But for your purpose, they
have a Social Security number. - [Matt] They got 20 bucks. They seemed very happy.
- There you are with a clipboard, taking a survey. - Right, took a survey, went home, ordered their, and they, you know, of course they give me everything. Name, date of birth,
Social Security number, mother's maiden name,
where they were born. Have they ever been in the armed services? Have they ever had a passport issued? What states have they
had identification in? Have they ever been arrested?
They ever been on probation? Have they ever claimed
Social Security Disability, SSI mean I had like 17 questions and it absolutely answered everything. What high school did you go to? 'Cause high school transcripts
are great for documentation. A lot of times they'll ask
you for high school, you know, can you get us a copy of
your high school transcripts? Like, that's good to know. And I'm a big believer in overkill. So I mean, I ordered a ton of stuff. If I needed three things to get a driver's license
in your name, right? You know, I'd come in with like six, 'cause what you do is you get
in front of the guy at the DMV and you kind of fumble through like, "Oh, I got this, what else do you need?" You know, I know exactly what you need. But you know, they'll be like, "Oh, was that high school transcript? Yeah, I'll take that, and what, oh, voter's registration card, gimme that. Yeah, that's, you're perfect. You're good. Sit down right over. There's it." You know.
- Who is by the way, lurking in the shadows
trying to catch you? You've mentioned FBI, secret Service. - Oh yeah.
- You mentioned, I think I've heard you
mentioned US Marshals, which is interesting, cops
in general, the police, CIA, I guess CIA is international only.
- Yeah. - FBI is internal.
- Yes. - Okay, well, so who is,
when you're doing this, who are you afraid of? - So by the time I've gotten to Atlanta, within four or five days,
the FBI raided my office. I guess I kind of missed that. - Back in Florida.
- Back in Florida, when I left and drove to Atlanta and left, remember the FBI was gonna
show up a few days later, they were gonna arrest me.
- And they did. - They did. They showed up like I left on
a Sunday night or something. Because for some reason in
my stupid thought, I thought, well, they won't arrest me on the weekend. Like, they don't work on the weekends. So they came on like a,
whatever, it was like a Tuesday or Wednesday or Thursday,
like within a few days, they come in the office,
they raid it, they're looking for me, but I'm gone. Nobody knows where I am. And so now I'm surveying the homeless guys and I turn around and I'm
ordering their documents. And as their documents
are showing up, you know, I'm going to different
states and getting IDs, so I'm going to Florida. So over the course of
this whole thing, I've had 27 driver's licenses in
like seven different states. I've had two dozen passports. Because if you're gonna
get the driver's license in the guy's name, you might as well get, or an ID even, you might
as well get a passport. 'Cause a passport's not difficult to get, they don't fingerprint you,
you know, all they look, all they're doing is
saying, "This is your ID and were you born here?" And then they run a check
and if it comes back or it doesn't, and back then
you could do it expedited. And I'd have it in like two weeks. Like now it takes like 90 days or 60 to 90 days to get one, but- - And if you have multiple
ideas for a single identity, that's more proof, like, right.
- Right. - So wait, what number
did you say? How many? How many IDs, how many identities? - So I had, well I've
had over 50 identities. But I've had 27 driver's licenses issued from state DMVs, department
of Motor Vehicles. - So, like, legitimately,
- Legitimately, I walked into the DMV, said,
"Hi, my name's Michael Eckert, and I just moved here about
three weeks ago, four weeks ago. Here's my lease. And here, I lost my driver's license, bro. Like, I don't know what I
did with it. I don't know. I don't know what happened.
I don't, I don't know." And they're like, "It's all
right. What do you have? Do you have, I need a proof of residency." "Well, I have my lease."
"Oh, okay. I need a primary." "Okay, here's my birth certificate." "Okay, and I need a secondary." "Here's my Social Security card. But I also registered, you
know, I registered to vote. My girlfriend made me vote immediately. And she said I would need
it," "Oh yeah, that's perfect. You're, you're good. I
don't even need that." "Okay, great." "Stand over
there. Pay that person." They call your number, "275," you know, 45 minutes later you go,
you pay your 25 bucks, you stand in front of the
screen, they take a picture, you got a driver's license, you walk out, it's still warm, it's beautiful. It smells like pop plastic. It's amazing. And so I'm opening up
different bank accounts in these guys' names and just about- - [Lex] What do you, yeah, sorry. Well, what are you mostly
doing with the identities? You opening up different bank accounts? - Right now?
- Are you doing a credit starting to establish credit or no? - Some of them, like I
might order, I might order secured credit cards,
so I can't get credit. You know, I'm building their credit. Like it's not helping me in any way. I'm just sending out $500
to get a Capital One card or a American, I'm sorry, a Bank of America secured
credit card, whatever. So I'm building their
credits, but not all of them. Only a few because I'm collect, although I'm collecting them,
I'm also gonna be moving soon. I'm only here to get a few hundred thousand dollars and move. I need some kind of a base. So I don't wanna start
getting credit cards and building up a history in
Atlanta in anybody's name. But I am getting driver's
licenses in other states. So I've made a, like North
Carolina, South Carolina. - What's the primary
method of income here? When you move to a place? South Carolina? How do you make 100,000
at this at this time? - Oh, well, I'm in, right now, I'm living in this guy's house
and I satisfied his loans. The house is worth 200,000.
- Got it. So what happens is, one day we go and we check public records. Remember I told you it takes months for it to show up and it shows up. He's got no mortgages on the house. So now I'm, I turn around and I make a fake ID in
the name Michael Shanahan, and I'm living in his
house, but I have no credit. Right, there's no credit. So I've got a, the ID, I've
got a Social Security number and I order some secure
credit cards in his name. So if you pull that
credit profile, it does, it shows up saying he's
got some credit cards, but it's, they've only, they're
only a month or two old. So I can't go to like Bank of America. I mean, I could, but I needed to get the money as quick as possible. Like I wanna get out of Atlanta. So, and at this point, by the way, there's multiple articles
showing up in Tampa. So the "St. Petersburg Times" is writing multiple articles about me. - With your face.
- With my picture. Yeah, but it's, honestly, it's pre, I mean not pre-internet,
but, it's post-internet, but it's in its infancy. Like no, nobody's, it's not huge. And honestly, it's a local newspaper in Tampa. It's not that big of a deal. Like I'm not concerned about
that so much at this point. What I'm concerned about
is getting a chunk of money and just moving on and kind
of re-establishing ourselves in a better way where we're
not living in a building that we're going to be committing
fraud in with our house. So, but I'm living in this place. I make a fake ID in the
name Michael Shanahan. And I call up three secured, or sorry, three hard money lenders. A hard money lender is a
guy that lends his own money or other investors' money on
property, kinda like a bank. But he's lending his own
money so he doesn't have to really meet the banking requirements and he can charge a much
higher interest rate. These guys are charging 12,
13% interest, simple interest. And they're only lending
you a much lower percentage of the value of your home. So they're not lending
you 90% of the value, they're lending you 65%, 60%. So I call three of these guys. They all come out to the
house at different times. And each one of them says,
"I'll lend you 100,000. Or it's like 150,000, 150. Like they all lend roughly 150,000. So we schedule three separate closings. None of them know about the other person. So what I do is I close one loan on, let's say Monday and then one on Tuesday, and then went on whatever
Wednesday or Thursday, or that may have all been the same day, to be honest, but I don't remember. The point is, I go to three
separate title companies or real estate attorneys, and we close and I get checks for, you know,
after cost and everything. The total ends up being roughly 400,000. So I've got 400,000, Becky
and I run another scam in Tallahassee, Florida. And we get like 50 grand. And plus we, the 80s dwindled
down to close to nothing 'cause we, we had gone
on several vacations. We went to like Bermuda and
I think we went to Jamaica. We actually stayed at the Ritz in Jamaica. So it was very nice.
- You and Becky. So Becky turned out to be pretty good in terms of scams on the road. - No, she was useless. She was horrible. And she just spent money all the time. And by the, what I realized too, very quickly is she's bipolar. So she's bipolar and she's absolutely, you know, insane. She smokes pot all the time. - Did that matter for you personally or did it actually affect
the, how good you were able to do these particular scams? - It was that she was the type of person that would start an argument
at one o'clock in the morning. And scream at the top of her
lungs and get the cops called. - Okay.
- So I can't have the police called, I can't get taken downtown
and fingerprinted. I can't have the police showing up. I don't know who's really, who's looking. We haven't had plastic
surgery at this point. We're still pulling money together, so- - [Lex] Oh, Becky. - Yeah, Becky's a problem. And at some point I
actually, we send her to a, like a psychiatrist and they give her, they put her on Zoloft and
she takes it for like a month or two and then she stops taking it. She thought she was all better. Like, you're not all better. - So, can you gimme a timeline here? How long are you able to be
on the road here successfully? - Three years.
- Three years? - This is me. This is the first few months.
- Three years. - Well, so, yeah.
- Three years. - What happens is we get
that little chunk of money, we put it deposited
into these bank accounts and we start pulling out cash and, which works out fine
'cause we've got a bunch of accounts and we're pulling
out little amounts, 7,000, 5,000, 8,000. And, you know, I would cash
checks against her accounts and they would call her to verify, "Oh, is there's someone here trying
to cash a check for $9,000?" You know, "Can you verify the payee?" And they'd go, "Oh yeah,
that's Scott Cugno." "Oh, okay, thank you."
And they'd cash the check. You know, these are new
accounts, so it looks odd. But, you know, we are
always, I open the account. So what ends up happening is, we're cashing them and I remember getting really frustrated 'cause
it was just taking forever. And I had gone into a bank one time, and you know, they have
banks where that they cash, they actually cash, like large checks. Like if you go into Bank
of America and you try and cash a check for $15,000 or 25,000, they probably won't do it. They'll tell you, "We don't
have that much cash on hand. We don't this, we don't that." They have certain banks that do that. So they told me where one
of those was, I went there, I had a check for like 29,000 that had been cut on a
closing for Michael Shanahan. Remember I refinanced Michael Shanahan's. And then I've got a check
for 29,000 that was issued to Scott Cugno. So I'm sitting in the bank, I go in there and I say,
I need to cash this. And she says, "You're gonna
have talk to the manager." I go, "Okay." She says,
"Go sit down over there." I go sit down in the little glass cubicle. He comes over and he says, "I see you're trying to cash this check." And I was like, "Right," he goes, "Why don't you just
deposit in your own bank?" And I went, "My bank account,
my bank is a credit union or something, and it's in like Florida. Like, they'll hold this
thing for like two weeks. Like, I need the money now I
have people I need to pay." He is like, "Well, I'm not sure." And I was like, "Well, it's fine. It's a cashier's check. Like it's good." "And he goes, "No, it's good. It's good." I said, "You have the money." And he is like, "Yeah, we have the money." He said, "It's just odd. Hold on." He goes back in the back and he comes back and he says, "Where'd you get the check?" Cashier's check. I said,
"It was a cashier's check. It was drawn off of a closing
for somebody's property that I, we're doing
the company I work for, we are putting on an addition on,." "Okay, that makes sense." Comes back, goes, "Well,
why do you need cash?" And I was like, "I'm cashing guys' checks that work for the company. Like there's a lot of these
guys that are like Mexican guys. They give them a check, they
go to a check cashing company or they get charged five, 10%. So I cashed him, I'm like,
I don't under like, what, the check's good, right?" Like my, and he's like, "Yeah, we're just trying to verify some stuff." And he went, "Yeah, hold
on." And he leaves again. And I remember my cell phone rang and I pick up the phone, it's Becky, said, "What are you doing?
What's taking so long?" I go, "Ah, the guy's being a jerk. He doesn't wanna gimme the money." Oh, she's like, "Oh my
God, get outta the bank. Get outta the bank." And I went, "I can't get outta the bank. The guy's got my ID, he's
got my credit card, my ID and the check for 29,000. Like, he's gonna call the police
if I just jump up and run." And I go, "Don't call me again. I'll let you know. It'll be fine." Hang out the phone. She calls back, same conversation. "I'm bouncing off the walls. I'm like, I'm going crazy."
(Matt imitates yelling) Like, "It'll be fine." Hang up the phone. He comes back out and he
goes, he said, I said, "Hey," I said, "What's taking so long?" And he goes, "We're trying to get in touch with Michael Shanahan
to verify the check." That was not good for me. Like I'm thinking,
right, right, okay, okay. And he walks away, the
phone rings, it's Becky, "What's going on?" I go, "They're trying to get
ahold of Michael Shanahan." She goes, "Oh my God! Oh my God!" And I'm like, "Oh my God. And I would remember thinking, I shouldn't have left her the keys. There's a good chance I run
outta this place and she does, she's not there.
- But by the way, when you're sitting there, you're who? Scott? You're Scott.
- I'm Scott Cugno. - And then he's calling Michael Shanahan. - Right, they're saying
they're trying to get in touch with Michael Shanahan. So then the phone rings,
my cell rings again, and I look, and it's not Becky's. - Yeah.
- Not Becky. So I pick up the phone, I go, "Hello?" And she says, "Hi, this
is Kim from SunTrust Bank, is this Michael Shanahan?" So I'm like, "Yes, it
is Michael Shanahan." And she says, "There's a guy here, he's trying to cash a check. It's very large. Could
you verify the payee?" And I go, "Sure, it's Scott Cugno. He's trying," I said, "I
believe the amount's $29,000." And she goes, "That's
right. Thank you very much. I appreciate it." I said, "Okay," I said, "Hey, by the way, how'd you get my number?
This is my cell number." And she's like, "Oh, I'm sorry. We called the title company and the title company gave
us your phone number." Well, I closed those
loans. That's my cell. That's why if they looked in
any other way, I would've, they could've gotten in touch
with a real Michael Shanahan. So I was like, "Oh,
okay." Hang up the phone. - You're sitting, you answered
the phone from the bank while sitting in the bank. - As Scott.
- As Michael Shan- - As Scott Cugno.
- As Scott pretending to be Michael-
- So I just, right. So I just verified the check myself. - As Matthew pretending to be Scott that's pretending to be Michael. - Right.
- Yeah. - So I wait there, terrified still. They come out about two minutes later, the manager comes out, plus a woman, I'm assuming maybe that was Kim. She never said anything. And she walks out and she says, and he counts out the money twice. 29,000. 29,000. And I stand up and I mean just like, I'm remember like shoving
the money in my pockets. Like I'm trying to get outta
there so quick, I'm like, "Hey," I'm like, "Okay, cool." Like, I'm thinking this
whole thing's is, you know, feels bad and I'm getting
up and I'm, so, I'm starting to walk outta the bank. And he goes, he said,
"Excuse me, Mr. Cugno?" And I said, "Yes, sir." I turned around and he goes, "I'd like you to know,
I'd like you to know that I feel very apprehensive
about this transaction." And I go, "Really? What is it exactly?" And he goes, "I can't
put my finger on it." And I go, "It'll come to you." And I turn around and I just
bolt right out of there. And so keep in mind, a week or so later, the Secret Service shows up. "Did you cash a check for $29,000?" So what's so funny is like, that was one of the last checks we cashed. So we ended up with like 400,000. - Was there a connection between the Secret Service and this guy? - No, the-
- The apprehension? - So the FBI's looking for
me kind of in, in Tampa. And they've put out a
fugitive warrant for me, which is how the US Marshals got involved. - So this US Marshals
track down fugitives. - Yes. Federal fugitives, they track down. - But everybody's after
you, you're on every list. - Right, I'm on the FBI's Most Wanted list.
- Most wanted. - At that point the Secret
Service got involved once I leave Atlanta. So when Becky and I pack up our bags and we leave Atlanta, the
Secret Service got involved because of identity theft, you know, banking, identity theft. The Secret Service doesn't
just do counterfeiting and protect the president. They also protect the
financial infrastructure of the United States. And they especially have jurisdiction when identity theft is involved. - So I identity theft
plus bank fraud there. That's when they arrest.
- They move, yeah. That's it. That's their territory. So they don't.
- And the US Marshals are just fugitives.
- US Marshals, just fugitives. They don't do any investigation. - They're all kind of work. Okay. But they're all kind of working together. - Yeah, they, yeah. The, you know, like the
US Marshals are like, let's say an arm of all of the various law enforcement agencies, federal agencies, not the states. The states have their own
fugitive task forces or fugitive. - So when you leave Atlanta, basically everybody's after you. - Everybody's after me. - Did you know this at that
time or did you sense it or? - No, I mean, now, you know, every day you're looking up, you're just looking
your name up every day. Like, I'm not, because I'm
just trying to get a bunch of money and just blend in, right? Things were not as interconnected at that time as they are now. But they're starting
to get interconnected. But of course, I have no idea how much. I barely go on the internet
for anything, you know, dating, that's the only thing that
the internet, you know, I'd never been on Facebook. At this point Facebook isn't
even up, isn't even out yet. This is 2006. - Still, were you trying to stay low? - Yeah, I am because
I'm not a flashy person. Like I'm not driving, you
know, like I didn't go out and buy a red Lamborghini,
you know, I'm driving, I'm driving 40, $50,000 cars. You know, I've had some
sports cars, 70, 80, you know, maybe that's 150,000 sports car now. But it's still not flashy. It's not like it's bright red or yellow. I mean, these are, it's always something, you know, nondescript. And I'm living in areas that
these cars are everywhere, you know, I go to, so I end up going to
Charlotte, North Carolina. We rent an apartment,
we decide to run a scam in South Carolina. So I go to Columbia, South Carolina. And in between this period
of time we go to Las Vegas and I, when we go to
Las, we go to Las Vegas to drop off a bunch of money
to Becky's son's father who's taking care of her son. We drop off some money there. We go and we start and while we're there, it's like, hey, there's homeless people here. So we-
(Matt laughs) - So you're always, you.
- Usually I don't feel bad telling these stories. You make me feel bad.
- I'm sorry. I'm sorry. My judgment is showing. No, but you have to be
collecting identities, I guess, to be constantly creating new identities. - So I got my survey forms. So I go and I, you know, we go out and we're taking, I'm taking surveys and I end up going up to
this guy who's like two or three guys that are
standing on like a bench or sitting on next to
a bench or something. And I see him and I walk up
and the guy, one guy gets up and he comes over and he is like, "Hey, what do you need?" And I went, "I'm taking
surveys for the Salvation Army to determine where we place
our next homeless facility." And the guy goes, "Oh,
I'm not interested." And they always said that. And I said, "It pays 20
bucks cash right now. It'll take you five minutes." And they're like, "What?
You $20 cash right now? I was like, "Yeah," I show them the cash. And they go, "Okay, yeah,
yeah. What do you need?" Name, date of birth,
Social Security number. So when I get to criminal record, the guy, he says, "Criminal record?" He's like, "Yeah, I've been arrested." He goes, "I've been arrested like three, four times for," he
said, "For prostitution." He said, "But they're like misdemeanors." And I went, "Okay." And it was like, okay, prostitution, to me, women get charged
with prostitution, you know? Men get charged with solicitation. I went, "Prostitution?" And he goes and he went,
he said, "Yeah, yeah." He said, "I offered to blow an
undercover cop for 20 bucks." He said, "That's what I
thought you were coming out here for." And I was like, and I
was like, "No, no, bro." I said, "Okay." And he's like, "Yeah." He said, you know, he goes, I mean, he said, "I
mean, a girl's gotta do what a girl's gotta do, you know?" And he made some comment or something. I was like, "Okay."
- Yeah. - So I jot down the
rest of it, we're good. I give him 20 bucks, I
get in my car, I leave. We get back to North Carolina. I order all of his documents.
His name was Gary Sullivan. I then go to South Carolina. When I go to South Carolina, I get a real estate agent. We drive around for a day. We look at like five or six houses. I put five owner financing contracts
on five different houses. So I get him, he writes up
five contracts, all of them. I'm asking for owner
financing, I'll put down 10%. I want owner financing. Two of them end up coming back and saying, "Yes, we'll do it." I have two closings. One of them is a house
that's worth like 225,000. I put down 25 grand.
Another one's 110,000. I put down 11,000. So
I buy these two houses. I then satisfy the loans
on both the houses. Everything seems like it's going okay. Although Becky's a lunatic at this point. She's had so many, she
won't take her medication. She's had so many outbursts that, and we've had, by this time
we've had plastic surgery. Like she's gotten plastic
surgery, she's gotten a boob job, she's gotten liposuction,
I mean, all kinds of stuff. So-
- Look way different? Like appearance changes or? - Thinner, better looking, you know, just tightened everything up, I guess. You know, she was in her, she'd had a kid, and she was 30, 33, 34. I don't know how old she was. 20, 32, 33. I don't know, roughly my age. So yeah, I thought she looked, you know, she lost like 15 pounds. Like she was not 'cause of the surgery, but just in general, we're
not, we're just working out. We're going mountain climbing. We're, you know, riding
bikes, we're doing, you know, there's fraud's not a full-time job. So, you know, we have plenty of time. So we're goofing off. And, but she's also a lunatic. You know, she's getting the cops called, she's able to go out and
she's able to stay stoned 24 hours a day. She's going out with friends, drinking. I never leave the house. You know, even to this day, I really barely ever leave the house. I'm very much a homebody kind of person. So like the idea that I'm able to make my living doing YouTube and I'd never have to leave my house. I love that. I don't ever go anywhere except
for the gym and back home. That's it. So what happens is, I've actually moved her
out of my apartment. Like I had an apartment
downtown, 30 story building. I actually moved her
into another apartment. She's that much of a lunatic. We can't even be in the same place. Multiple times I've tried to leave her, she's called me up and
begged me to come back. It's horrible. So I end
up buying a couple houses in Columbia, South Carolina. I satisfy the loans on the houses. I've got an ID, not a driver's license, but an ID in the name
of Gary Lee Sullivan. And I refinanced, or I
refinanced those houses. 'cause keep in mind there
was owner financing, but they also had mortgages. So there's something called
a wraparound mortgage. So these guys did wraparound mortgages. So let's say you buy a
house for 200, $250,000 and the bank lends you 200,000. And then you own or
finance the house to me. So we do a, I give you 50 grand down, but I'm not able to get
a loan from the bank to pay off your mortgage. So what we do is you do
a wraparound mortgage. So I'll pay you your mortgage
and you pay the bank. So there is a second
mortgage on the property, but it's called a wrap, it's wrapped around your first. - That's legal? - Yeah. So I wouldn't lie to you. So it's, so there's, these
have wraparound mortgages. So-
- You're always selling and you're good at it. - So I go, I satisfy the
loans, the owner finance loans, the wraparound mortgages, and I satisfy the loans
their, the original loans that these people took out
on their own mortgages. One of them, by the way, I
sat, you know, you have to sign as the president of the bank, right? - Yeah.
- So I sign it as C. Montgomery Burns, which is the aging tycoon, the
guy that owns a power plant in "The Simpsons," TV show. - Yeah.
- So I sign that and I notarize it, which
I thought was cute. I actually wanted to sign all
of them cartoon characters. And Becky was screaming her head off and wouldn't let me do it, right? Like I wanted to do all
"The Simpsons," right? But she wouldn't let me do it. She's screaming and hollering. So I ended up, you know,
seeing, nobody knows who C. Montgomery Burns is. So I sign it, notarize it,
all of those are satisfied. I then go to the multiple banks and I refinance, start refinancing all these properties multiple times. So I'm applying for these loans and I'm getting the loans and I'm closing. So I've got like five or
six loans on this one house. So house is like 225,000, I think it was like 230, whatever. I borrow like four or
five loans on that house. So I borrow like
$190,000, like five times. So I've got like $800,000. And then I borrow another three or 400,000 on the other house. The one, the smaller one, right? So it ends up being like $1.3 million. It's actually like 1.5 million. It was more, but what
happened with that was, so keep in mind, you can only open up so many bank accounts in your name. You can go to Bank of
America, they'll open one. Then you go to SunTrust, they'll open one. They're gonna ask, they
might even ask you, "Did you open another bank account today?" 'Cause every time you do
it, there's an inquiry into something called
Check Systems or AccuCheck. And so then they go, so
then by the time you go to the third bank, they'll say, "Listen, something's not right. You've got multiple inquiries." You know, if you go to
whatever Mercantile Bank, there might be, they might go,
"Okay, we're gonna open one," they're gonna need an explanation. But you're not, you're not
opening more than three. By the third one, they're gonna be like, "Absolutely not, something's wrong." So, you know, I've got
multiple identities, but I can only open up so many banks. The other problem is that these checks, they'll only give you
so much money on a refi. Usually after 100,000, they
only wanna let you walk away with let's say $100,000. So one of the things I did
was I would typically record another mortgage and have
them pay that mortgage off. So I had to open, I opened
a corporation to do that so I could then turn around and go open corporate bank accounts, 'cause now it's not
going off my information, it's going off the corporation so I can open up multiple
corporate bank accounts. - [Lex] Well, these
corporations are fake or real? - No, no, I went to a real
corporate bank attorney to corporate attorney
and had him open them. I gave him whatever. I gave
him like $1,500, $2,000. And he opened up a corporation
for me, Gary Sullivan. And I then turned around and I went and opened up multiple bank accounts in that corporation's name. - How are you keeping track of all this? 'Cause it.
- This is, I don't need this. - So I-
- It's in your head or do you have good organization? - No, no, oh no, no, I have, every single identity has its own file with, you know, plastic inlays,
sleeves for their passports. - [Lex] Oh, it's nice in order. - Yeah, it's super organized.
- You open this. I'm Gary now.
- Right. That's exactly what it is. Like, you kind of go over,
boom, boom, boom, boom. You sit in your car for a minute, you put it down, you walk in. Well, what happens is it
went up to like 1.5 million and I'm pulling money outta the bank. And then one day I got a phone call on Gary Sullivan's cell phone. The guy, it's a lawyer. They call up, he says, "Hey, I'm lawyer with Washington Mutual. We have an issue." I said, "What's that?" He says, "We got a phone
call from the title company," one of the title companies that I was attempting to refinance one of the pieces of
property with noticed that I, they had been sent, they'd been
sent a document that showed that I had purchased the property. And I said, I purchased it cash and the documents that
I purchased it cash. And they got that and there was actually a
mortgage on the property. And so somehow or
another, they connected it and they called Washington Mutual and they said, "Look, there's
an issue, there's a fraud. We have a fraudulent document here." And he was like, he said,
"So we went and we looked and it turns out that
we pulled public records and that there is a
mortgage in front of us, several mortgages in front of us. So there's like three or four
mortgages in front of me, Washington Mutual, you owe us." And it wasn't that much,
it was like a hundred, it was like a hundred grand, right? Like 95 or a hundred. And I said, "Okay." And he said, "So there's an issue here. You've got a few mortgages in front of us and we're supposed to be a first mortgage and we're not supposed to be
two mortgages behind or three." And I was like, "Okay, sounds
like a, sounds like an error. Not a big deal. Have you
contacted law enforcement?" He said, "No, I haven't. I was hoping we could
rectify this some other way." I said, "You know what? I think we can. I'm gonna have my lawyer call you back. I'm gonna go to his place right now. Give me about two hours." No problem, I immediately
run, jump in my car, head towards South Carolina,
call my corporate lawyer, tell him, "Look, I need to talk to you. Here's what's going on." I explain it to him. He doesn't really understand. He says, "This sounds pretty complicated. I have a, my law partner is
a criminal defense attorney. I'm gonna have, I'm gonna set up a meeting right now with all of us." Okay, I get there 45 minutes
later, I walk in the door, I sit down, he says, "What happened?" I said, "Oh," they said, you know, "Gary, this doesn't sound right. What's, what do you, what happened?" I said, "Okay, so listen,
bought this house. I bought it cash. I then refinanced it." I didn't buy it cash, but I
told them, "I bought it cash. I refinanced it like four or five times within a day or two of each other." And they were like, "How
is that even possible?" I was like, "Well, I went to
different title companies" and I explained how I do it. I said, "Washington Mutual just found out that they're in like second
position or third position," or I said, "But they're probably, they may be in fourth position. You know, they mail these
things in so you never know." And he was like, "Oh my God. He's like, that's what do you want to do?" I said, "I want you to contact them and agree for them to not
contact the authorities provided I pay them off." He goes, "Do you have the money?" I said, "I do have the money. I can go get the money right now." He calls the lawyer, this
is back when faxes, right? So they fax some documents back and forth. They make, they do a couple
emails back and forth and they have a conversation. I remember the lawyer started arguing 'cause he wanted to charge
me like yield spread and fees and stuff. And I was like, "What
are you talking about? Like, I'll pay it." Like, so it ends up being
a little over 100,000. And I'm like, "That's it."
So he is like, "Okay." And so he says, "Okay, that sounds good." And so he said, "Okay, all you have to
do is go get the check." And he said, "Bring it to
a Washington Mutual branch. Tell them to call," I said, "I'm not going in a
Washington Mutual branch, bro. I'll bring you the check." So he calls him back, "He's not
doing that, man, he's done." "Okay, I'm not, I'll bring it here. You guys take care, "he said, no problem." Okay, hang up the phone. And he turns to me and he says, "Okay, well we have a problem." He said, "We still have the problem of these other mortgages." And I went, "Right." And he goes, "Okay, well." I said, "They don't know anything." He said, "I know, but Gary." He said, "What if they find out?" I said, 'They find out that they're like in second and third and fourth by place?' He's like, "Right." I
said, "I leave town." And he went, so they both laugh. They go, "Gary, you can't just leave town. They have a copy of your driver's license. They have your Social Security number, they have your birth certificate." He said, he goes, "They'll
find you. It's the FBI." And I go, "You're assuming
I'm Gary Sullivan." - Wow. You tell them.
- And he, they, listen, they looked at me and they went, and I remember he said, he goes, "We'll cross that bridge
when we get to it." And I said, "Right, my
immediate problem is getting rid of these people." And he goes, "Right, right." So I go get the check, bring
it back, give it to them. Never called the FBI. - I can't believe you got away
with the Washington Mutual. - Oh no, this is-
- I mean, these are all really close calls it seems like. - You No, this is the close call. I have two more close calls that my hands sweat thinking about it. I walk in, I walk into Wachovia. I just opened this account two months ago, so it's a new account. So whenever I would go
in there and I'd say, "Hey, I need a $7,000,
$6,000," anything over $3,000, they had to call to get permission, right? Like authorization. So she's like, "Okay, I gotta go call." I said, "No problem." So the girl walks in the back,
I'm sitting there waiting. All of a sudden a massive person reaches over my hand and grabs my wrist and somebody grabs it from the other one and they pull my hands behind my back. These are two of possibly the largest law enforcement officers I've
ever seen in my entire life. I mean, they're massive. And they handcuff me and they say, "You are Mr. Sullivan, you're being detained. We're taking you into custody and, you know, putting, you, we're holding you until
a detective gets here." - Who are these guys? Is this US Marshalls or
is this cops or what? - [Matt] These are sheriff's deputies. - Sheriff's deputies. - And as they walk me in-
- Sullivan, Gary Sullivan. - Right, as they walk me in the back, they're calling me Mr. Sullivan. - Right.
- They sit me down and by now I am, you know, the Secret service are looking for me. They're calling me. Well, they were calling
us John and Jane Doe. But now they figured out who we were. And so now I'm on the secret
service's Most Wanted list. I'm not like number one at that, right? Like I probably was, but
we just found out I was on, like, on that list. So it's getting bad. So they sent me down and I'm waiting and I remember thinking that
the FBI was coming, you know, I don't really know at that point, I couldn't tell you the
difference between everybody. And then five minutes go by and, you know, I'm sitting
there going, "What is going on? Do you guys have any idea what's going?" "They're like, we don't
know. We're just grunts. We just do what we're told." So suddenly this guy walks in, he's probably in his early 30s maybe, he walks in, gray suit. I think he looks like he's FBI. He says, "Hey, I'm a detective with the," I wanna say Richland
County, you know, whatever, sheriff's department or
police department, whatever. And I was like, "Oh, okay." And he says, "Yeah, listen,
we've got an issue." Wachovia wants this. They
want us to arrest you." He said that, "They're saying that you've got three
mortgages on your house." And I go, "Is that illegal?" And he looked at me and he went, "You know, to be honest, I don't know." And I distinctly remember
thinking, I'm walking outta here. All I have to do is convince this guy, I haven't done anything wrong. He's already said he doesn't know. So he gets on the phone with the head of Wachovia's
fraud department, and he's telling, saying, "This guy is running what's
called a shotgunning scam," which is absolutely right. And so-
- What is a shotgun? - It's where you're you
close on so many loans simultaneously, they can't catch it. Anyway, they start going back and forth and he's on the phone and he's like, "Why did you close three loans?" And I said, "I," you know, "Why are you pulling," I
said, "It's not illegal. I have a first mortgage,
a second mortgage, and a home equity line of
credit, that's perfectly legal." And he goes, and you can hear the guy. "Yeah, it's not, they're
all first mortgages." And I said, "I read every
one of those documents. Not one of them said they
were first mortgages." And they don't, first mortgages don't say
they're first mortgages. It's the placement of the mortgage, placement of the lien that
determines is their first, second or third. So it's possible that I wouldn't
have known it certainly, that I could have read those
documents and not known. And he's like, "That's not true." And he's screaming. And so I go, "Yeah, listen," and he said, "Well, you're taking out all cash. Why are you taking all cash?" I said, "Well, I mean, I don't know if this, this sounds," I said, "I don't know if
this might be illegal. I said, I don't know." I said, "I mean, I work
for a labor company, Labor on Demand." I pull out my business
card, "You can call." So I'm like, "I work for Labor on Demand. And I said, "We hire a lot of guys that, like, they don't have bank accounts. So the company pays them. And then I'll usually, I'll pull out money and I'll cash their checks because they get charged like 10% of these check cashing companies. And I feel bad. I know
the checks are good. So I just deposit them. I mean, I don't think that, but I don't know if that's illegal. I don't think that's illegal. Like if," and he is like,
"No, no, that's fine. That's a decent thing to
do, it's not, that's fine." I'm like, "Oh, okay." So he's talking to the guy and you know, Wachovia is screaming out, hollering, he says, "He's doing that," you know, he's going back
and forth, back and forth. So we're going back and forth, back, and I'm just derailing
everything this guy says. And at one point he says, he's screaming, "He's committing fraud, we want him arrested." And he's like, "I don't know
what to charge him with." And he's like, you know, he's saying, these aren't, you know,
"How did you, you know, how did you?" He's like, "Hey, look, how
did you even do this? What?" I go, "Look, I didn't do this." I said, "I came to Wachovia,
I met with a loan officer. I said, 'I need a first mortgage, I need to pull out like $100,000. I wanna start buying houses.'" He goes, "That's right, you own another house
here too, don't you?" I said, "I do." I said, "We're putting a new roof on it. We're gonna build an addition.
We're putting in a pool. I'm buying one right down
the street from that one." I said, "So I'm obviously,
I'm pulling out money." I said, "So I told them I need $100,000." They said, "That's fine, we can," they said they could
only get me $100,000 out for something about Fannie
Mae guidelines, which is true. And I said, so then she
said, "I had, I can get you, I can send you to a friend
of mine who's a loan officer. She can get you a second
mortgage," which she did. I said, then I told her she
could only get me 100,000 or so, 190,000 and the other. And she said, "You
should get an equity line of credit if you're gonna
be doing like, you know, renovating properties." So she sent me to somebody and they got me an equity line of credit. I said, "You know, I
haven't committed fraud." I said, "I wouldn't
know how to commit fraud if you told me." I said, "What sounds more reasonable? A guy that works for a labor company ripped off a bunch of banks for over half a million dollars," I said, "Or some loan
officers got together and did something illegal?" I said, "There's a problem at the bank." And he says, "I think you've
got a problem at the bank." And this guy goes nuts. And while he's screaming, "He needs to be arrested, this is fraud. My loan officers have not
done anything illegal. They wouldn't do that." He says, "Look at his ID, his ID is fake. His ID starts with 000." South Carolina IDs start with 000. This guy's in California. He has no idea. So when he says that, the detective looks at my ID and he goes, "Listen," he said, "This is a real ID. I ran this guy through NCIC." He said, "This is Gary Sullivan." And I looked at him, I go,
"Now I'm not Gary Sullivan? I go, "Come on bro.
What are we doing here?" And he goes, "I know Gary, I know." And he says, "I'm gonna take him downtown. I'm going to talk to
my whatever lieutenant, whoever captain, and I'm
gonna fill out a police report and I'll let you know." And he hangs up. - Yeah.
- I get up, they've taken the
handcuffs off, I stand up. As we're walking out with the detectives, as we're all kind of walking out, he goes, "Hey, you have an ID, do you
have a driver's license?" And I went, "I do, but
it's in like Nevada." And he goes, "Oh, that's right." He goes, "You're from Vegas." And he looks at the two deputies
and they all kind of grin. And I think he ran me through NCIC, which means he ran a
statewide criminal database, which means he thinks I've
been arrested three times for prostitution in Vegas. "Ah, right." Listen, I'm humiliated. I was just like, and the grin told me, and I was just like, oh man. And so one of the cops goes, "Here, gimme the ID,"
takes the ID, he goes, "I'll check and see," 'cause I have to follow
him back in my car. So he goes, and by the way, my car is in the name Michael Eckert. So Michael Eckert, he
doesn't have a photograph of Michael Eckert.
- Right. - Because you can't pull up
photographs from other states. So he doesn't have a photograph, but he knows that's not my car. And he asked me, whose
car are you driving? I said, oh, "That's my
boss, Michael Eckert." And I said that, "That's my boss." And he goes, "Oh, Michael Eckert?" I said, "Yeah, exactly." And he's like, and I'm like, oh my God. So I'm thinking he knows Michael Eckert, knows it's registered in North
Carolina, knows the address, which is where I was currently living. That's a problem. So the police officer, or the, sorry, deputy grabs
the ID, walks outside, comes back, I have no idea if this homeless guy has a
driver's license in Nevada. I don't know. He had nothing on him. He comes back and he goes,
"Does he have a valid license?" He goes, "Yeah, it's valid." And he hands it to him,
or he hands me the ID. And he says, he said,
he goes, "It's valid." And he looked at me, he
goes, "Yeah, well," he said,, "It says he's like, he
says he's five foot 11." Like it was like 510, 511. And I'm clearly not 510 or 511. And they all look at me and I go, "Fellas, with a good pair
of shoes," like that. And they all go,
(Matt imitates laughing) "Follow us, Gary."
- Yeah. - I follow them back
to the police station. Becky is calling me on the
phone, screaming her head off. Now, I'd always told Becky,
if I ever get arrested, immediately go get me a lawyer. The lawyer will be able
to get me out on bond, 'cause I'll be arrested
for something stupid. I said, "It'll be something
like trying to cash a check," you know, a fake check or a, you know, use of somebody,
said, "It won't be the, all my IDs are real, so
it won't be for a fake ID. So my ID won't be in question." And most, most police departments and sheriffs at that time did not run your
fingerprints through AFIS. So they didn't, 'cause
they charged them for that. So they don't, they don't typically do it unless your identity is in question. Mine wouldn't be, I have
a valid driver's license or a valid ID in that state. So I go back, she's screaming, she's like, "Oh my God, you don't understand. I just checked the internet, the website. You are number one on the Secret Services Most Wanted list." And I was like, "I got
bigger problems right now. They just held me in the bank. I'm following them right now."
- Like right now. - And she was like, "Get on the interstate. Go, go." "I cannot go, the
detective's in front of me. The cops are behind me. They're escorting me
to the police, listen." She's like, Oh my God. Run, run." I go, "Look, I'm not a NASCAR
driver, like I'm driving. It's a sports car, but it's
not gonna outrun a radio or a helicopter." Like, I'm not, that's not gonna happen. I know it looks, it seems nice. I'm not that guy." So I was like, I can't, I said,
"Look, you don't understand. I was in handcuffs 30 minutes ago. I just talked my way out of
them. I'm gonna get outta this." And I said, "The worst that happens is I'll be arrested as Gary Sullivan. You can get me a plea. You
can get me an attorney. He can get me out." And she goes, "I'm not
getting you an attorney. I'm not getting you out on bond." - Oh no, Becky.
- "I'm not risking everything I've got for you." Because she has all the money. We've got seven, $800,000 at this point. So, oh, and by the way, she's not even in North
Carolina at this point. She's relocated to Houston, Texas. Because when this scam broke, fell apart, we were gonna move to Texas. So, wait, we were
already moving there. So. - But by the way, just a small tangent, where do you store money
in situations like this that, like, when you talk about 800,000, do you have to keep moving accounts to make sure it's not accessible by FBI?
- There's about, well, there's about six
or 700,000 in accounts. But keep in mind, I'm
getting that out in cash. Like there's no Bitcoin, there's no, none of that stuff exists. So my, you know, I probably
should have bought diamonds or bought gold or bought like,
I don't know any of that. All I could think of is
go in slowly, be patient, don't drain the accounts,
you know, fluctuate them. Like I was writing,
getting cashier's checks from one account to another. So the balances were doing this, you know, they weren't just going, (Matt imitates deflating) they were doing this, and then one day, boom, they're gone.
- Okay, got it. - So.
- Got it. - So we got out, like whatever, we've gotten out like six or 700,000. There's still like six
or 700,000 in the bank. But I'm not going back. I'm done. I actually, to be honest
with you, so well, look, I go in, so I go into the police station and well, first she says, "If you go in the police
station, I'm done. If you get arrested, you're done." I said, "Well, then I
better not get arrested." I hang up the phone, the
cop's standing behind my car. I get out, I go in the
police station, I walk in, I fill out the police report. He tells me ,"I gotta talk
to my captain real quick. Can you wait?" He couldn't
leave me in his cubicle. He goes, "Can you wait in the hallway? I can't leave you in the cubicle." I said, "No, no problem." So I go and I wait in the hallway. In the hallway are a whole wall full of on the corkboard wanted posters. Black and white. Black and white. Like, you know, car thief,
you know, rapist, murderer, secret Services most wanted. And I'm on the, on on
my faces right there. I'm like, holy Jesus. And you know, everything
in me told me, "Run bro. Just fucking haul ass
right now, right now. Just go, your luck's run out." Not that I even thought he
was, there were so many, I didn't think he was gonna see it. But it just, everything
in me just said run. The problem is if you've ever
been a into a police station, you're not getting out of it. Do you understand that?
- There's a lot of cops around.
- No, well, not just that, but they buzz you in. - Yeah.
- You get in the elevator, you have to punch in a code.
- Right? - You have to punch in a code to get back out of the elevator. You have to punch in a code
to get into the next door. There's like a, I mean, it's impossible. Like I'm never, I'm not
gonna get in the elevator. So guy comes back up to the,
cop comes back up, he said, "Hey, Gary, appreciate it. No problem. My captain said, we're good. We're gonna wait for a phone
call from the," no wait. "The district attorney called already. They're looking into it. I'm
gonna go ahead and let you go." I go downstairs, he
walks me out to my car. He said, "Look, do me a favor." He is like, "We do have
some serious questions at this point, like the
district attorney says, there's some, something's up," he said. And I said, "Not with me." And he said, "Well, just do me a favor." He goes, "Don't leave town." I said, "Bro, I own two houses here. I'm not going anywhere." I said, "I'm telling you right now. I said, "Wachovia, they fucked up." And he is like, "I believe
you. I believe you." He said, well, he said, whatever. He is like, "I hope that you're right. I'm sure you're right." Okay, so I get in my car, I leave, I go to two more banks,
pull out more money. But at one point I go into a bank and like two of the
cashiers practically slam into each other, trying
to get to the phone. And I could tell something's up. Like, oh, no, no, no, no. Something's up. So I back, I get in my car, back out. One of them even kind of runs out and looks at the tag number, you know. So I drive, I get on the interstate. I go, I, you know, Becky,
of course, she's, you know. "I'm sorry, I love you. I would've never done
that. I was just scared." I understand. I go-
- Becky sounds like a handful. - Oh my God, bro. So I go all
the way back to Charlotte. I pack up my apartment. I drive all the way to Houston with my entire apartment packed
up, by the way, in a U-Haul. Like the next day, the
next morning we pack. She's got people there
packing it up, movers. We pack it up. I drive the
U-Haul all the way to Houston. Takes a couple days. I unload it into, we
have some guys unload it into a storage unit. 'cause I'm gonna stay with Becky until I find my own apartment. As we're driving around the
neighborhood, super nice. She's living in like, whatever,
like on like that 20th floor or something of some huge
high rise, great apartment. We drive by and I go, "Oh, stop the car," and I go, "I want to get out." It is one of those cone
things where there's flyers for the house, for a house. I jump out and I get the flyer, and she's like, "What are you doing?" I go, oh, "I just want, you know, I just look at looking at the flyer and she says, "I don't
wanna do a scam here. I wanna live here. This place
is nice. I love it here." And I went, "Right, I understand." I said, "I'm not gonna," I said, "No, but I have to find an apartment." And she goes, "Oh, you just,
I'm just so disgusting. You can't stand to spend
even a couple weeks with me. You just," and she goes just ballistic. She's screaming at the top of her lungs. And I know she's gonna get me caught. She's never gonna get me out, right? She's already told me that. So we go back to the
apartment, we go upstairs. I was so scared of this chick, bro. I was so scared, I remember I
was going up in the elevator and this girl gets on
this clearly a stripper. I mean, drop dead, just but
wearing stripper clothes. - Yeah.
- And I'm staring like, and as soon she got on, Becky
gave me that, with the face. And I'm like, this, I'm
like staring in the corner and never look at the girl. And I remember we get off the elevator. (Matt imitates elevator bell dinging) It opens, I bolt off
it, Becky bolts office, off the elevator. And I remember she squeals. "I bet you'd just love
to fuck that tramp." And the girl, as the elevator
doors are closing, she goes, "Hey!"
(Matt laughs) I thought that was funny. So I go to the apartment. We have a screaming match, kind of, tell her I wanna split up the money. She tells me she's not gonna
gimme, split the money. - Why?
- Because she said, "You can go somewhere
else and do this again. You'll have a million
dollars in six months. You know, I have to live off this money. - [Lex] Did she threaten you? - Oh, she threatened
the, it was funny too, 'cause the conversation back and forth, I remember saying, "No, I want half." And she goes, and she said,
"I'll give you $10,000." I said, "You're outta your mind." I said, "I'm telling
right now, you come up with something reasonable,
I'll take all of it." And she said, what did she say? I said, "I'll take all of it." She goes, "In what? Escape in that U-Haul they're gonna," she goes, the cops are
gonna be looking for in five minutes?" And I went, and I just
remember thinking, oh, wow. And keep in mind all of my IDs, everything are in the storage
unit that she has a key to. Like, I'm not getting those. It's over. - Yeah.
- I got an ID right now that says, my name is Michael Eckert. - Yeah.
- I'm driving a, I'm driving a U-Haul van. - Yeah. Sounds like she has a
lot of negotiation leverage. - Right, so we start
arguing back and forth and she says, "$100,000." - Yeah,
- "I'll give you 100,000." I said, "I'll take it." She counts it out. She counts out the 100,000. Later, when I recount it,
it wasn't even a hundred. It was like 98,000.
That's fine. It's fine. So, but you know, we've
got them all marked, you know, 2000, 5,000, 6,000. She's like, "2000, 5,000, 12. That's it." She ends up stiffing me. That's fine. It's not my money. So I take it, I end up, you
know, I take it, I leave. And as I'm leaving, she'd always called me before on the phone and
begged and pleaded and cried. "I messed up. Please
gimme a chance. I'm sorry. I'll take my medication. I'm sorry. I thought it was better.
I thought it was okay." And I remember walking
out, I put my cell phone on the counter and just
walked out, went downstairs, got in the truck, and drove, and drove. When I got to Louisiana, I stopped at Baton Rouge and got a, I mean, at some point I stopped and I got like, I think I got a room or something at one point. I know I stopped. - [Lex] So you drove
without a plan essentially? - I drove back to Charlotte to get my car. - Got it.
- So I can't be driving. I can't drive this car.
- Yeah, right. - So I stopped at Baton Rouge at one point and got a cell phone, you
know, like a burner phone, like a Verizon Virgin Mobile or something. One of those little
phones. So I bought one. I call a few people at home,
back home, call my mom. She's in tears crying. My dad's
yelling in the background. I call,
- What's your mom? Just a small tangent, what
did your mom and dad say? You remember, anything
stand out to you as? - No, my dad, you know, you know. "Well, I hope you're happy. You know, your mother, every time someone mentions
your name, your mother cries." Which is funny to me, 'cause like, growing up,
like he was never concerned about her crying, you know? So it was like, since when
did you care? You know? And I just, so I mean, my dad, like, he's an alcoholic, you know, he's been sober for
two years, a month and a half. Drunk, drunken, binge or
drinking, sorry, drinking binge, and then sober for six months and then did it again, then sober. You know, it just went back and forth. And in and out of alcohol,
you know, drug programs. But like I said, worked for
State Farm and State Farm, he was a top selling manager. And so what they would do is, they'd put him into a 30 day program. And I mean like a, like,
he has to stay there. And they had, they were
the only ones that had that kind of control, 'cause they're like, "You're gonna do this and you're gonna pass
it, or we're firing you." You know? He made a lot of money and he made a lot of money for State Farm. And he hired and trained a ton of agents, and he had one of the
top performing agencies. So he was worth a lot to them. And, but, so I end up, what ends up happening
is I'm driving through, I get that phone that I
was telling you about, and I call, so I call, talk to my mom. She's, you know, she's crying. She's like, "I love you so much. You know, I just wanna
make sure you're safe." I end up calling Susan
Barkowitz which was one of the brokers that
worked for me at the time. Call her and I say, "Hey,
what's going on? How's it?" She's like, "Oh, Matt, man,
you know, what's going on? FBI's everywhere, like they've
been talking everybody." They, you know, and this
has been, it's like a year and a half at this point. And she's like, "It's
not, you know, they're, they come around every once in a while. Everybody's gone in. Everybody's cooperating,
everybody's talking, everybody's blaming you," including her. And so as we're talking,
she said, "Look, I've, the main FBI agent on the case. She told me if I ever spoke
with you to have you call her." And I was like, "Yeah, I'm good." So she goes, "Her name is Candace. And she wants you to call her." She goes, "At least call
her for God's sakes. Maybe you could just turn yourself in. Maybe you can negotiate
just like a couple years. Like a 'cause they're, if
they're not gonna catch you, then maybe turning yourself in. Maybe it'll help, at least hear her out." And I was like, "Okay,
all right. You're right." Hang up the phone. I call
Candace, she picks up the phone. I go, "Hey." She goes, "Who's this?" And I go, this is "Matt Cox." And she goes, "Hey, hello
Mr. Cox, how are you?" And I go, "I'm doing okay. How's it going? I understand you wanna talk to me." She goes, "I do." I said,
"What can I do for you?" She says, "You can turn yourself in." I go, "Well, that's not gonna happen." I said, "What else do you need?" And she said, "I think
that you should think about turning yourself in." I said, "Why? Well, what am I looking at?" She goes, "Well, that's not how it works. Way it works is you turn yourself in and you know, we take
that into consideration." I said, "Mo, no, no, no. I
said, that's not good enough." I said, "I'm not stupid enough to turn myself in and hope for the best." So she says, "Well,
let's talk about this." And I said, "Well, what am I looking at?" And she goes, "I don't really know. I can't, you know, really, I can't tell you that." And I said, "Well, then
we don't really have anything to talk about." She goes, "Well, wait a second." She said, "Let me, hold on,
let me call the US Attorney. Maybe we can work something out." So she calls the USD. So I said, "Okay, I'll call you back." And she said, "Well give you your phone
number, I'll call you." And I went, "No, no." I
said, "I'll call you." I said, "I'm gonna hang up the phone. I'm gonna turn the phone off." I said, "For all I know,
you're triangulating this phone call right now
or something, you know." And she goes, "Oh, give me a break." She goes, "You're not that important." And I remember thinking,
who do you think you are? Like, she, like, right. Like you're just some little
fraudster guy running around, you know, like, you're not a terrorist. You know, like, and I almost, I almost was like, "Oh,
okay, here's my number," which she probably already had. But I almost like, was like, "Oh, okay, I'll wait for your
call," and left my phone. I said, "No, you know what?" I said, "I'm gonna hang up the phone. I'm gonna turn off anyway,
and I'll call you back." She's, "All right. Whatever." I hang up, I turn off the phone. It turns out I found out later when I ordered the Freedom
of Information Act. She actually immediately
called the US Marshals. And they immediately called,
took the phone number and tracked back the phone and immediately had two
marshals from Baton Rouge, go immediately to the
place where I had been. - Damn.
- Oh, listen. Yeah. I mean-
- They work fast. - Yeah, she's, oh.
- And she's good too. - Not just that. I made the initial calls
sitting there in that, where I went and bought the phone. It was like a gas station. There was also like a Subway station. I had ordered like a Subway,
I was eating a Subway, playing on my computer, programmed the phone
and making phone calls. So by the time I talk to her, and they're driving,
by that point, I walked and gotten into the vehicle,
my vehicle, and I leave. But, you know, who knows? I don't know if they
showed up 30 minutes late. I don't know. Like, I could have hung out, like, oh, I'm just gonna finish my food. Could have shown up. So I go, I call her back
an hour or two later. She says, "Listen," you know, the first time he wasn't,
hadn't got back with her. Then he did, then he came
back, he said, seven years, he's gotta turn himself in here. So, okay, seven years.
That seems like a lot. And I was like, seven years. And that's seven years for, I go, and I kept saying, "Is that
seven years for everything?" And she goes, "Yeah,
that's for everything." I was like, "That's everything. Like, everything in that
happened, like in Atlanta, like and some stuff that
you don't know about." She said, "Look, what's important is you turn yourself in, in Tampa." And I was like, "Okay,
well, I'm closer to Atlanta, why wouldn't I turn myself in in Atlanta?" And she's like, "Look, you
know, you don't wanna do that. You don't wanna do that." Well, 'cause that would've been, the Secret Service would've gotten credit if I'd walked in there, right? So, you know, and I don't
know anything about rivalries and how they work at that time, I do now. But, so we go back and
forth, back and forth, and I continually ask her, "Does that include
Atlanta and everything?" And at some point I realized like, oh, she's just not answering. And so finally I said, "Listen, you keep dodging this question." And she said, "All I
can speak for is Tampa. So if you come back to Tampa and you cooperate against
everyone seven years." And she's telling me she wants me to cooperate against my ex-wife. And I'm like, I'm not gonna do that. I said, "My ex-wife didn't do anything. She doesn't know anything.
She didn't do anything. She's never," you know, "Well,
that's not what I heard." And she's going on and on. And I was like, "No, no." I was like, "Oh, wow." I was like, "So that's just for," and she's like, "That's right." I said, "All right, we're done. She goes, "Mo, wait, I can
call the Atlanta US Attorney." I said, "Nah, lady, I wouldn't believe you if you told me water was
wet, I don't trust you." And I hung up the phone,
threw it out the window, and I end up going to Charlotte, drop off the U-Haul van, go to my, I never, I would've
actually brought it back to the dealer. It's not like I abandoned,
I brought it back. So I bring it back. I go to my old apartment
in downtown Charlotte, and I remember thinking I would be okay. And I know by this point that they knew Michael Eckert's name. They had the address in Charlotte. So I know they, by this point,
it's been five, six days. So I know they've tracked him back there. So I figured if I could
get my car, I'm fine. So I go into the apartment complex and it, you know, it's
one of those four or five, six story apartment. You know, those are parking
things that stack up. So I go into this, you know, underground, it's not underground, but whatever, this parking garage thing. So I go in, I'm on like the
third floor or something. I look at my car, you
know, and I get in my car and I remember as soon as I walk, drove out of the parking garage, I
was like, "Whew, I'm good." So I can go ahead and
pull across the street and stop at Starbucks. So I stop at Starbucks,
I walk into Starbucks. I order Starbucks. I'm standing there
waiting for the barista. I look over and it's two people from the apartment complex staring at me. Like, that's, I'm like,
and they're whispering and pointing and none. And I remember thinking, this is like the fifth of the month. I hadn't paid my rent.
I hadn't been there. So I thought that.
- All right, makes sense. - Yeah, this, maybe they, like, I'm picturing an eviction notice or a three day notice
on my door or something. And I'm like, okay. And then one of them bolts
out the back, the woman, there's a guy and a girl. The woman runs out the back. He's standing there staring at me. I get my venti vanilla latte, right? I get my little, I get my fru fru drink. So I got my fru fru drink. I walk out, I get into
the car, he follows me, get in the car, I set everything up. I put my seatbelt on. I'm okay. He's standing there staring at me. You know, I'm thinking something's
wrong, like, what's up? And all of, and I check
to see there's no traffic. I'm good. I'm about to, about to leave. And he starts screaming, "He's
right here. He's right here." I look in the rear view mirror. There's two guys running
towards the back of my car. I punch it and I take
off. Sounds dramatic. Wasn't that dramatic. I'd
already, there was no cars. I knew there was no cars
already pulling out, you know, it wasn't like a TJ Hooker where I jumped over the, slid across the hood and you know, they didn't catch the car and hang onto the back. But, you know, so they're
running and I boom, hit it. (Matt imitates tires screeching) - Did you spill the coffee or? - No, 'cause it was one
of those little things. It was actually nice.
But, but it just sounded- - You're making it sound
like you were pretty calm. Weren't you panicking here? - I was terrified. - Yeah.
- Terrified. - So what, you're under fear,
you're still operating like- - Yeah, I operate, like I-
- Calmly. - It's funny you say that, because the Secret Service, when they talk to these guys, they, all
the people that they spoke with said the same thing
over and over again. "The guy was a professional.
He never seemed upset. He never seemed agitated. He always, he was never in a hurry." - Yeah.
- He, you know, like, but most of the time, I wasn't because I, you know, it wasn't until the police got involved, or, so the law en federal
law enforcement got involved that I started really,
you know, getting anxious. So at that point, I drive, I take off, I drive about a mile down the road. - Who were the two guys, by the way? Was it-
- I thought it was FBI. I ordered the Freedom of Information Act when I got to prison at some point, you know, in the future. And it was US Marshals, right? So-
- Sounds pretty dramatic to me, US Marshals
running towards your car, you pull, I mean- - I mean,
- Yeah, but it's all right. - It's hard not to tell
it like it's dramatic. - I understand It was, there was not much traffic, goes. Okay.
- Yeah, it's not like their, you know, their fingers were at the back of the car, they're holding on, you
know, but it was, yeah. If I had waited an extra 20 seconds, yeah, they would've been on my car. They would've been
right there at the door. - Did you consider giving up there, or no? - No. All I could think of was haul. Listen, my instinct is get out is go, go, go, go, go, go. - You're already on the run.
- I'm already in trouble. It's not like they're
gonna be, they're gonna, it's, they're gonna add anything. Although, to be honest,
you know, it only got worse because at that point,
actually at that point, I drive down the road, I
stop at a homeless facility. I survey three guys. I'm a mile down the road, like looking back on, I
think, what were you thinking? But there were three, three homeless guys that were in their early 30s. And they were, they were all
Caucasian. That's hard to find. So trust me, I've looked, spent hours before track and finding these guys. - So that's like the golden
thing you're looking for is, white guys in their 30s.
- Right. Because that's, I was in my thirties, I wasn't an old man like I am now. So I survey them, I drive
straight to Nashville. Get to Nashville. Drive through
an area called Green Hills. Well, at first, when I got to
Nashville, I stayed the night. And the next day I went into,
I'm gonna say a UPS store. It was actually a Kinko's. There used to be some, they
used to be called Kinko's. - But I go-
- I remember Kinko's. - Oh yeah.
- They got bought by FedEx, I feel like.
- Oh, is it FedEx? FedEx, okay. Then it was a FedEx store. - So I go in there.
- Oh, Kinko's. - And you give them like
50 bucks or something, or 20 bucks or something. They'd give you like a
hundred business cards. So I go get a burn, a phone
number, a burner phone. I go in there, I make up, oh, I call and get a phone number
from HQ, the local HQ. I come up with a name
manufactured funding group. I've got two phone numbers. I get business cards made with a name. One of the guys named that I surveyed was, his actual name was
Joseph Marion Carter Jr. I went by Carter. So I get business cards
made of Joseph Carter. I then drive through Green Hills, took them like an hour to get the card. So I'm driving through Green Hills. I'm planning on going to an apartment, but I'm still, I don't have
an ID, I don't have anything. Like I'm wondering how,
what am I gonna do? How am I gonna get a place to stay? I'm gonna stay in a hotel.
Like, what am I doing? I'm using an a, an ID that
the cops are looking for. So as I'm driving, trying to find this big apartment complex, there's a guy putting a
sign in the front yard of like a townhouse. 'Cause several townhouses, and I probably in his 60s, I pull in, jump outta the car, and I
said, "Hey, is this for rent?" He said, "Yes it is."
And I said, "Oh, okay. Yeah. Can I see it?" "Sure," I go in, check it out, come back downstairs, it's perfect. I said, listen, you know, I
work for a company, you know, manufactured funding
group, boom hand him thing. I said, "I've been in, in Europe for the last," I forget what I said. I said, "England," I
said, "Little town outside of London in, you know,
whatever, Dexter, you know, London for the past five years. I don't really have any credit. But I said, I can put down
double the security deposit or, you know, whatever you need. Here's my business card." He looked at me and he looked at my car and he goes, "You look
like an honest young man." He said, "I'll, take
the first month's rent and a deposit." And he said, "Now go
get a lease right now." And I said, "Okay." And I said, "Oh, okay." Filled out a lease right
then, gave me the keys. Like nice, like very
trusting in that town. - Well that went, oh yeah. But there must have been
also something about you where you're just. - I mean, I don't-
- Got a nice car. - Look, I know what you're,
you're gonna get a lot of comments that say white privilege. But that's what, that's what you're- - I think the charisma has
something to do with it, yeah. - Well, so he gave, I appreciate that. So he gave me the keys. Listen, I ordered all of Joseph Carter's vital information, right? Like all of his birth
certificate, Social Security card, everything that night from like a Kinko's or some of the, I forget where, but from some one of these
places I went online. You could go online back then, right? Like, there wasn't wifi everywhere. So I ordered the stuff, it
shows up a couple days later. I take that information, I go and I get a driver's license. We're talking about within like seven or eight days, I've got a
driver's license in his name. I get in that car, Michael Eckert's car. I drive it all the way back to Nashville. I leave it in long-term
parking, get on a plane, fly back to Nashville, go in
and buy myself a brand new car. It wasn't brand new, it
was a couple years old. But from like CarMax,
went in, within two weeks, I'm completely 100% set up. I start dating for three, four months. That gets really boring. - Where again? In Nashville you said? - Nashville.
- Okay, got it. - So I started dating a bunch of chicks, and then I end up meeting this one girl. - By the way, are you lonely here? 'Cause you're on the run, is that? - Man, listen, being, I'm
telling you right now, being on the run was the
best part of my life. - Really?
- Everybody, you know how all these guys say, "It was horrible. And I was always so concerned
and looking over my shoulder," and it wasn't, I wasn't,
keep in mind, I've gotten, I've gotten five or six traffic
tickets while on the run. I went to traffic school as someone else. I got so many traffic tickets in his name. I went to traffic school as him. Like, if I got pulled over,
like, I'm not concerned. - So your confidence just was over the top.
- And I'm driving a vehicle in the name of the driver's
license that I have that was issued by that state. Yeah. Full coverage
insurance. I'm not an idiot. I'm not driving around a stolen car with a broken taillight
and a body in the trunk. Like I'm covered. Like, I'm not concerned
about the local cops. - Plus you're gonna
Starbucks sipping your coffee and driving away from US Marshall. - Right, right. That was-
- You could start believing that it's impossible to catch you. That is exactly what it is. It's every time I just kept getting more and more emboldened, more
and more cocky, arrogant. Like, they're not gonna
catch. I'm too good. You know, which is great
until they catch you. And so I meet a girl named Amanda Gardner. Well, what I end up
doing is, keep in mind, I've only got 100,000 or so. So I go and I start buying houses in the area in this area called JC Napier next to, it's just close to downtown. And I buy these houses and I start record. I buy them for like 60, 70,000. And I record the sales at 210, 190, 205, that sort of thing. Same thing. And I refinance the houses. I start pulling out money. I meet this girl, Amanda Gardner. We hit it off within a few months. She's moved in to, we move
into a house in that area. I renovate a house. We move in there. I borrow three and a half million dollars. And I'm buying houses now. I'm buying houses, recording the value. I started all over, you know,
I borrow like, whatever, three and a half million dollars. I meet Amanda, we move in together. We're buying-
- Do you tell her? Do you tell her about what you- - She kind of, you know,
what she knew was that, you know, it's odd, right? I have no photographs.
Everything I own is brand new. She's like, "You don't,
there's nothing in this house that's more than four months old. So six months old, you
have no photographs, you have no internet presence,
you have no, you know, it's, every stick of clothing is brand new. You don't have old pairs of jeans." - Do do you tell their
stories about the past of any, like is there a fabricated - Initially there was a fabricated version that I owned a, I owned
a mortgage company. My typical story was like
I owned a mortgage company and I got bought out by Household Bank, started doing very well. I got bought out by Household Bank. I have a no non-compete clause. I got, you know, I ended up
with like half a million dollars after paying off all my bills and just decided to kind
of travel around the US And now I'm here, I'm gonna
start renovating houses. But that, you know, you don't call home, nobody calls you, your
family doesn't call you. You tell stories about your
mom, your dad, your brother, your sister, friends. I don't know any of these friends. Never seen any of these friends. They never call you. They never, you know, it's
just like, it's like, ah shit. So at some point, I
basically just said to her, "Look, I am," listen, at one point I had to have a check cut. I refinanced the house, right? And I had like, I wanna say,
I'm gonna say something like, it might have been 30,000,
but let's say 20,000. I had a $20,000 check
cut to Amanda Gardner. 'Cause you have to have these checks. You can't have them cut to me. So I would say, "Hey, there's
a second mortgage on there." And I'd provide a second mortgage or I'd provide, you know,
I'd provide different things. And I knew if I need names of people to cut these things to. So I had a check cut for whatever. So I remember we're at dinner one night. This is before she really knows who I am. And I said, "Hey." I said, "Oh." And she goes, "Oh, did
you had a refinance?" She said, "How'd that
thing go? You refinance?" I go, "Oh, thank God you said that." Boom. I said, "I need you to deposit this." Give a check for 20,000. She's like, "I can, I can go tomorrow. And I can deposit it and I," and I'm like, "No, no." I'm like, "Look it,
it's fine, just deposit it." She says, "I can get,
as soon as it clears, I'll get you a cashier's check." I was like, "No, just deposit
it and keep it in your bank. It's fine." So she's like, "What is going on?" You know, and so we have this conversation and I tell her, "Look,
people are looking for me." "Who?" "Law enforcement." "Which ones?" "All of
them," you know, she's like, "Tat doesn't even, for what?" I go, "Mostly bank fraud." And she's like, "Well, how
are they not finding you? I mean, everybody, you know,
people know you like, you know, your general contractor, which
I met four months before. This guy six months
before, two months before." You know, she's like, "So and so, so and so, so," and I'm
like, "Right, right. Well," I said, "Well," she's like, "I mean, they've got your name, they've got your," I go,
"Well, that's identity theft." And she was like, "What do you mean?" I said, "Well, my name's
not, you know, my name's not, it's not Joseph Carter." "And what is your name?
What is your name?" I go, "Look, you know, you don't need, don't even worry about it. This is what's happening.
This is where I'm at." And this has been months
into the relationship. I mean, this is, or I'd say
maybe a month or two in. But you know, she was
just too inquisitive. And, oh, I know what it was. She found like $40,000 in cash in my freezer one night. That was another thing that happened. She went to get a Popsicle and she opened up the
flip to get a Popsicle. And she opened the wrong
one and there was all cash. And she was like, like,
you know, "The other day," you know, in this
conversation, "The other day, I opened up the Popsicle
box and there's cash." And I'm like, so I kind of explain it, but I had a feeling she's not gonna, she's gonna be okay with this, you know? - So she was okay.
- She was okay with this. - I mean, to me, that's just a fascinating conversation to have. Like. - It was a great conversation. - 'Cause oftentimes in relationships, you learn about each other
and you find out new things. And here you find out-
- That's a doozy. - Yeah, it's a good one to find out. (Lex laughs) The name you're using
is not your real name. And the secret service, the FBI and everybody else are looking for you. - Yeah.
- And you're like, to be honest, you're
not a violent criminal. So it's like,
- And I, you know. - You know.
- But she didn't know my name. Like, she was like, she, and I told her, I said,
"Look, if you start digging, if you find out my name, like I'll leave." Like, there's certain
things that catch you staying in contact with
people that, you know, that's how you get caught. You know, going back to see people, that's how you get caught, you know, telling people who you are, that's how you get caught. And I was like, "So, I'm Joseph
Carter, everything's fine." And she was like, "Okay," you know, and keep in mind too, this girl, do you, "Oh, your car's broken, or
your car's not doing well? Take it and trade it in. We'll go get you another car. We'll go get you, you know,
an Infinity, you know, FX or whatever, you know, a
55,000, $60,000 vehicle." She's driving the equivalent
of a beat up old Nova. You know, I mean, it's, you wanna go on vacation,
we'll go on vacation. You wanna do this, you wanna do that?" So, you know, we're buying
houses, we're renovating houses. We're building brand new
houses. We're buying lots. Like, she's like in the middle
of this, like holy Jesus, there's hundreds of thousands of dollars in the bank,
in our bank account. Her bank account. I open up
a corporation in her name. She's opening up bank accounts, she's got web, there's websites. It's a lot. And while this is happening, we start seeing a friend of hers. So this other girl comes in
the picture, her name's Trina. And Trina is semi lesbian. So-
- Is this like a sexual thing? - Yeah.
- Or actual relationship? - No, it's, no, it's more like a, she's coming over a couple times a week. - Okay.
- So we've got a ton of tons going on. And, how do you put this? So while this is happening,
I end up coming out in like several magazines. So I'm thinking this
whole thing's dying down, but it's not dying down because now I just got caught
and handcuffed in a bank, walked outta the police
station, outran Marshalls. Although that part, the Marshall thing never was never in the papers. But the getting caught and handcuffed in the bank, when that hit the papers,
that's everywhere, bro. That's huge, you know. Suddenly "Chicago
Tribune's" running a series, "The Fugitives," I'm in
"Bloomberg Business Week," they run an article called, you know, "Sharks In The Housing Pool." Then you've got a "Fortune
Magazine" comes out with a thing, because by now, guess what? Becky's been caught. - Oh, Becky.
- Becky. Oh, Becky. - [Lex] Is she in Houston or whatever? - In Houston, got caught.
- And did she? - But gangster, bro. Like the way she, here's the thing. - [lex[ Hey. Hey. There you go. - No. Oh no. She told on me immediately. - Oh, she did? Oh no.
- Yeah. It's fine, she did the right thing. So here's what's funny about that though. - I don't know about that. - [Matt] She, here's what she says. - Loyalty is everything
in this world, my friend that you and I disagree on. - I just took off. I just took off - Still.
- On her and left her with, listen, with like six or like five or $600,000
is what I left her with. - It's not all about money, Matthew. It's also about just like,
you know, ride or die. There's a meaning to that. - My God.
- I'm sorry. Go ahead. - So-
- She told, she said everything. - Well, here's what, when I say gangster, when she gets caught, - [Lex] Yeah. - They come in, she's in
the middle of beauty school. She's paid for beauty school, she's going through beauty school. She's gonna open like
a salon or something. So she's in there cutting hair in a class, you know, on a mannequin. And all of a sudden, like five or six Secret Service agents
come in, guns drawn, screaming, "Get on the ground, get on the ground." She said, "Everybody
dropped to the ground." She said, "I'm sitting there
with scissors going," you know, they grab her, they handcuff
her, they bring her in. And the whole time. Now, at
that point, she was Rebecca, well she was, yeah, her
name was Rebecca Hickey. She went by Becca. So she's
Rebecca Hickey, which is a, you know, she's got a
Texas driver's license, the whole thing. And they're screaming at her and they put her in the car and they're driving the whole way. She goes, "Listen," the guy, the Secret service agent
told me 45 minutes, she's telling us, "You're
losing your job, bro. You're losing." I mean, he goes, he's like,
"I couldn't believe it. Like we've got pictures of her. We're like, 'This is you.'
She's like, 'That's not me. Are you insane? Look at
that chubby little thing.'" I mean, like she's just. Would not budge till they
actually put her hand on the scanner. And she goes, "okay, I'm Rebecca
Hauck. What do you need?" They're like, "Where's Matt Cox?" She's like, "I have no idea. That fucker left me like a year ago." So.
(Lex laughs) so.
- But she contributed to the story, to the legend
that's already growing. - Oh, because she was
interviewed by "Fortune Magazine" and it was horrendous. The article is horrendous. "He was abusive, he's a Don Juan that forced me to fall in love with him, commit mortgage fraud, and
then took all the money and left," by the way, they
found like 40 or 50 grand on her and maybe another 30 or 40 in her bank account
and no other money. - Yeah.
- Where's the other money? So anyway, and she was, by
the way, she got caught. She was in communication with her family. So she's talking to her mom. - [Lex] That's when she
got caught, ultimately. - And her mother, through
multiple conversations, one conversation being,
"Mom, I'm doing fine. I can't tell you where
I am, you know, exactly. But I'm in Houston, Texas, I'm fine." Next one, "Six months later,
I enrolled in beauty school," Houston, Texas Beauty School. How many are there?
- Yep. - And her mom, bipolar. "I just wanna see my daughter. I'm gonna call the Secret Service." - Yep.
- "I'm doing the right thing." And honestly, she is
doing the right thing. So-
- So you're getting more and more famous. - It's bad.
- Nationally. - [Matt] Right. So I've
got all these houses. - You're having a threesome
with Amanda and Trina. - And what ends up happening
is we end up going on, you know, and listen,
Amanda and I, we've gone on, we've gone to Greece, Italy, Croatia, we've gone,
we're going on multiple, just multiple trips. And when we had just gotten
back from like a 10 day cruise of the Greek Isles, and, there's, we get home
and Amanda goes online and there's a blog about
"Dateline," about their, one of their new specials
called "The Thief Of Hearts." And that's me. Apparently
I'm the thief of hearts. And I'm apparently going around and I'm, and it's based on, you
know, Rebecca's, you know, Becky's story that I'm
wooing women to commit fraud, stealing all the money, and then leaving them to hold the bag. Well, they interviewed her. They're interviewing multiple people, multiple in my case,
they put together this, they're putting together an
episode, gonna be released in a few, in a month or so. So I'm terrified, I've, at this point, I've been on the run three years, and I'm like, I mean, there's
lots of things I could care less about "Fortune," I don't know anybody that reads "Fortune,"
"Bloomberg," come on. I hang out with, I'm
hanging out with contractors and laborers and you know, I'm not hanging out with these guys. So, you know, local news, who cares? You know, even, even local news channels, you know, I don't care. But "Dateline," there weren't
400 channels back then, you know, so "Dateline" comes out, even if you don't see it the first time, they're gonna rerun it in
three months or six months, or five year, 10 years from
now, they might rerun it again. My face is gonna be on it.
So I could be perfectly fine. Five years from now and one
day, the barista that I go to every other day looks at "Dateline" and goes, "Oh my God, that's Mr. Johnson," or "That's Mr. Thomas," or whatever. So the point is, is that I
was like, "Yeah, I gotta go. I can't stay here. I gotta
get outta the country." So I was gonna go to, well, we
really started doing research and Amanda ended up saying, Australia. Australia, at the time, I
don't know how it is now, but at the time, if you went to Australia with like $100,000 and a business plan, you could become a permanent resident alien. You can't vote. But you can buy property, you can open a business,
but you can't get a job. And they didn't require our fingerprints. So there's no criminal background check. Now, if you wanted to be a citizen, you have to get an FBI
criminal background check. Like I got, no, I'm good. So I was like, wow, I can go
there and start a business, and I'm gonna start show
up with a couple million. So what we do is we
start refinancing houses, we start pulling out
money as quick as we can. I'm asking guys, laborers,
guys that I work with, my general contractor, my
real estate agent, "Hey man, can you cash this check for six grand?" You check, nobody says no, everybody. "Yeah, no problem, no problem. No." A few guys like, "Yeah,
man, if you give you 10%." "Yeah, I'll give you 10%." So that's happening.
We're pulling out cash. One day Amanda gives Trina a bunch of checks and asks her to cash them. That sparks a conversation that
like what it was happening. She confides in. By this point, by the way,
Amanda knows who I am. So by this point, she's
actually came across the letter that I wrote to my
parents when I left Tampa. So she's figured out who I am. She tells Trina, "His name's Matt Cox, 'Dateline's' coming out,
we're gonna, we're leaving. We gotta get a bunch of cash." And Trina goes, "Okay,
I'll cash the checks." And what she does instead is
she calls the Secret Service, they watch my house for three days, I come home one day, they pull the cars up (Matt imitates brakes screeching) and they arrest me. So, you know, it's a little bit longer than that, but that's shorter. That's a short version
of me getting arrested. And you know, I've probably
skipped over a whole- - So simple, because you've gotten away with much more complex situations. - It's women man. It's women. Just joking. (Matt laughs) - They also are the thing
that make life worthwhile. - Listen, God bless Trina,
she did the right thing. It, honestly, based on-
- There you go back to the right thing. - But I mean, based on what she saw, based on what the Secret Service told her and what then the articles
that she's reading, I'm a bad guy. I mean, I'm a bad guy in general, right? So I don't deserve
loyalty, I don't think so. I'm ripping people off and she's thinking that her
friend is in danger, you know, the FBI is saying, I have a weapon. "He's dangerous. He's got a weapon." You know, "We believe
he's armed and dangerous." When I was in Florida, I had
a concealed weapons permit, but I had gotten rid of both my guns when I was placed on probation. I've never had one since. I've
never touched a gun since. But they used that to
say, you know, they said, "Oh, he had a concealed weapons permit. Okay, well then he's armed and dangerous" Like, there's these little things and things they're telling
her, "Read this article. Look, he forces girls to
fall in love with them. That's what he's gonna do to your friend." So she negotiated a also,
I think she got 10,000, I think, which is embarrassing. I'm ashamed that she got $10,000. - And said everything. - Yeah, and told them,
"This is where he is. His name is Joseph Carter." You know, "This is where he is." They watch it, they
grab me, they arrest me. They bring me downtown. You know.
- What did you feel like when you got.
- I didn't feel good, bro. It was bad. It was a bad
day. It was a bad day. First of all, "Casino Royale"
was coming out on Friday. It was the first Daniel
Craig as James Bond. And the whole week I'd
been telling Amanda, "I'm gonna go see 'Casino Royale.'" She go, "Okay, well on Saturday we're gonna go to the festival." I go, "That's fine, but
on Friday 'Casino.'" And she's like, "Right, 'Casino Royale.'" And then she's like, "Okay, by the way, on Thursday, I thought
we could go to dinner." "That's fine. But on
Friday, 'Casino Royale.'" And when they put the handcuffs on me, one of the first thing I thought of, I'm not gonna fucking see "Casino Royale." I'm not gonna get to see
it. Not gonna see it. And I saw it about five, six years later and when on the
institution's movie channel, you know, it was nice. It's not the same. But yeah, so they bring me to Nashville, then they transport me
to all over the place. I go on, you know, Con Air,
they fly me to Oklahoma, they fly me to Atlanta. Then I go to Atlanta, I'm placed in the US Marshal's, holdover. I get assigned an attorney,
go in front of the judge, plead not guilty, meet with my attorney. You always plead not guilty. You know, whenever you ask people say, "Can you believe that he pled not guilty?" That's the first thing you, nobody walks in and pleads guilty. You plead not guilty while
you kind of figure out what you're gonna do. So I plead not guilty.
There's no bond, obviously. I've got, they caught
me, when they caught me, I had four or five passports. So that's no good. They charged me with,
you know, bank fraud, conspiracy, commit bank
fraud, wire fraud, mail fraud, passport fraud, conspiracy, or what was the other,
aggravated identity theft, money laundering, use of
a fraudulent passport. You know, and there's like, you know, 30 counts of this, 20 counts of this, 20. None of that matters, like
even if you just took the, dropped all the counts to
one count stacked them, it's like 150 something years. Not that they're-
- Yeah so everything, everything they put.
- Yeah. And that's what they always say. "You're looking at 150,000," you know, and your
lawyers, they're like this. "You're not looking at that.
You're looking at 54 years." What? That's no matter.
That's no matter. So yeah. So my lawyer comes in and sees me one day, you
know, like our first meeting. And I, she says, you
know, "I'm Millie Dunn," and she says, "Listen,
I've looked at everything, for first they say you're responsible for, it's like 25 or 20 or 30,
25 or $26 million in loss." And I'm like, "That's, I've
never, that's not true. That's not true." And I was like, "You
know, not even, I said, maybe not even potential law. There's just no way, I
mean, there's just no way." And then they come back, she comes back and she says, "Well,
they're saying 19 million." And like, "It's not possible. Tell you anything. I don't, I didn't, no." So when the FBI's saying like 40 million, they're saying 11.5 in Tampa, plus 40 million for the mortgage company. So that, it ends up being like, plus what I stole on the run, it ends up being like 55 million. But she gets them to drop like the 40. Like that's just brokers. That's this, that's that. Drop it. And they're like, "He's so
done. It doesn't matter." They drop that, so it ends
up being like 15 million. And then it's down to what does he owe? They said, "9.5," and I got
it down to like 6 million. So, you know, which,
you know, I'm good for. So what ends up happening
is they've charged me with all these things and she's like, "Okay, you know, you're like, you can plead guilty and you can go with the
sentencing guidelines, which is gonna be like," she's
like, "I mean, it depends." She said, "It might be whatever, 54 years" She goes, "But if they run
them, you know, concurrent or consecutive, depending
on which one they do," she said, "It most likely it
ends up being like 30 years." You know, it's like, that's
not good. That's not good. So we kind of go back
and forth, back and forth and figure out, try and figure out what I'm looking at. Now as we go through the
whole thing, we end up, she ends up with, she
ends up saying, you know, she knocks off a bunch of stuff
that they're saying I did, you know, at enhancements, because you'll have a base
level enhance, a base level of let's say a level eight. You know, that should be, that
should be maybe a few years. But then they start adding
on enhancements, you know. "Did he, did what he do,
was it sophisticated?" Yes, okay, three levels
for sophisticated means. "Were there more than, how
many victims were there? More than 50 victims?" Yes. Okay. That's six more levels. Okay. "Did he change the
jurisdiction to evade detection?" Yes. That's four more levels. Okay. "Did he," they start adding boom, boom. And when you start adding
up all those levels, plus your criminal history, and I have a big criminal history because I was already on federal probation and I committed a new
crime on federal probation. So that was another enhancement. And this, you know, this case.
So I'm in like a category. I'm like category two or three. So they come back and they're saying, I forget, it's like 20, well, they don't come back right away, but she ends up saying, "You're probably looking at 14 years." Okay. That's reasonable.
That's reasonable. And so she's saying, so
when we get the PSI back, we eventually get what's
called a pre-sentence report. They're saying 26 years. Well,
they really said 32 years. And I argued, and we got it down to 26 years and four months. That's what it is. It's 316 months. That's how they do it in months doesn't sting that much,
I guess if she say months. - Yeah. - So she says to me,
Millie sits down with me and she says, "Listen,
you gotta cooperate." And I was like, "Okay." And she said, "Because you're guilty. You're extremely guilty." She's like, "You can't go to trial." And she said, "So you need to cooperate." I was like, "Well, what
do I get if I cooperate?" And she said, "The way
it works is you cooperate and you hope for the best." And I was like, "Are you serious?" "You tell them everything you know, and you hope for the best." And she's like, "What part
of the problem is," she said, "Everybody in Tampa's cooperated. Rebecca has cooperated. Everyone across the board has cooperated." She goes, "There's nobody
that hasn't cooperated." - By the way, when you say cooperate you mean they're an informed, they told, they said, they AKA snitched.
- Yeah. Right, they came in, they
sat down with their lawyer and they said, "This is what he did. He did this, he did that." They showed him documents. "Yes, yes, yes, that's my signature. I didn't know what that was." You know, everything was my fault. They didn't do anything. It was all me. So they've all cooperated and
they haven't been charged. They've been indicted, they're all named as unnamed co-conspirators
on my indictment. So I've got like 12 people. And there's like probably
20 people there involved, but there's like 12 of them that are, so I've got all these names,
you know, KB, DL, CY, you know, it's like, I know who that is. Like I know who DW, that's Dave Walker. I know who you know, I
know who these people are. And so there's just a list
of, there's like 12 of them, you know, plus me. So, and some of them walked
in and said, "I'm guilty. I just wanna be plead guilty." The girl, Alison, she walked in, said, "I'm too, I'm tired of waiting for you to come get me." Walked in with her lawyer and said, "I just wanna plead guilty." And they sentenced her
and she went to jail. She got like 36 months or 30 months. She called the prison. She went to the low security,
it was a female prison at the time, female camp. Called the camp and asked
for if she could come by for a tour before she went. And they went, "Excuse me?" She said, "Well, I'm going to be there for about two years,
so I'd like to come in. Is there like a tour I can take? 'Cause I like to know where I'm going and what it's gonna be
like, how I should prepare." And they just started laughing. They said, "There's no tour, sweetie. We'll give you the tour
when you get here." (Matt laughs) You gotta love that. Like, she- - [Lex] Yeah, I mean.
- I thought I was, I didn't think, I thought
I was not prepared. I mean, there's no tour.
(Lex laughs) - So Becky, Becky got 70 months, but when I got caught
and when I was sentenced, they reduced it to like 30 or no, 40 to 40 months they reduced. - 'Cause she cooperated.
- Cooperated. - That term. Right. - Do you want to say snitched or ratted?
- Well, there must be, I mean, snitch is too harsh of a word, but yeah, the ratted, I mean, you're saying, I don't know. - Well, we can get there. We'll get there. - All right. All right. So where did the sentencing end up? - So I should say first on the cooperation. - Yeah.
- Subject. My lawyer wanted me to cooperate. And by this point I realized like, you don't have a choice, you know? No, that's not true. I
could have been a gangster. - Yeah.
- What does it mean to be a gangster in this case? - Like a standup guy. I could have said, I'll just take it, give me 54 years, go fuck yourself. I'm not gonna snitch on nobody. And I know you look at me
and you think, tough guy. I'm not a tough guy at all. I'm not doing 50 some odd years. Like, I'm not doing it. I don't wanna do 30 years,
you know, I was hoping for, you know, I knew it wasn't possible, but I would've satisfied
first another slap on the hand like I got the first time. I really thought I deserved, honestly, when you,
when my lawyer asked me, "What do you really think you deserve?" And I thought, I deserve 10 years, you know, I deserve 10 years. But, so she said, "Look,
they wanna talk to you." So the FBI, well, first,
the Secret Service flies in. They come in and they interview me. - Who's more terrifying?
FBI, Secret Service? - You know, the Secret Service was so overwhelmingly professional. the FBI, and really only,
one of the FBI agents that interviewed me, I don't
know how he's an agent. I don't know. He was just
ineffective, incompetent. - [Lex] Oh, so it's a competence issue. - The other one was Candace. - Oh, you met her eventually.
- Of course I did. Of course, she's-
- But what was her open line? - 511 wearing three inch heels. - Yeah.
- She's a giant and in impeccable shape, attractive. One of the angriest human
beings I've ever met. And every FBI agent that I've
met since then that knows her, and I've mentioned, they all say, "Oh, what you think of her?" And I'm like, "What? Why?" They go, and I was like,
"Kind of aggressive." They go, "Yeah, yeah, she's a bulldog." I mean, all of them are like, "Yeah, yeah. She's something else." Like-
- Secret Service is a little bit more like professional. - Very personally, very,
you know, it's their job. It's like, "Hey, this is just my job." They're polite, professional,
you know, that's it. So it's just, this is just
a, this is my nine to five. So, but they come and they fly in and they meet with me
for three, four days. One of the funny things is that when I first first sat down with them, the one guy's name was Dan,
like Broskowski or something. So, he sits down and he says,
"Look, before we get started, we need to talk about something." And I said, "What?" He said, "We know you've hidden money and we," you know, and I was like, "What?" And he goes, "You know, we
know you've got money hidden." I said, "I don't have any money hidden. What are you talking about?" And my lawyer's like,
"Do we need to talk?" I'm like, "No, no, no,
no. I don't have nothing. I gave you everything. I gave you all the accounts,
you got everything." And he's like, "You're looking at an obstruction charge at this point." I was like, "I don't have anything." And he says, "We know you have money. We know you have money in different IDs, different identities names." And I go, "What are you talking about?" And he pulls out a bank statement and he slaps it on the counter. And he goes, "You've got money in Southern Exchange Bank. You've got $190,000 in
Southern Exchange Bank." And I look at it, and I went, and it was in the name Walter Hulk. And I went, "Did you call the bank?" He says, "Yeah, we called the bank." I went, "Okay, did anybody call you back?" And they go, he said, "Well, no, we've left several messages." I said, "Did you go to the bank website? He goes, "Yeah, I went to the website." I said, "What'd you think?" And he went, "What do you
mean, it was a bank website?" I said, "Yeah, but it
was professional, right? It was like a professional website." And he goes, "It's a bank website." And I go, "Yeah, but
it's, it was well done." And he goes, "Oh God." And I go, "Yeah, convincing." And I went, I go, "It's all an illusion." And I said, "The bank doesn't
exist. It's a fake bank. I made the bank, made it when
I was in, not even in Tampa. I think I got into
Nashville when I made it." And I was like, yeah, it's an illusion, the bank statements." He's like, "They're
color bank statements." I'm like, "Yeah, well, no shit." So, you know, there's no,
I said, "A matter of fact," I said, "Who did you leave a, I haven't paid for the service in months." And he turned around and he called it and it went, you know. (Matt imitates dead phone ringtone) you know, it was disconnected. And I was like, "How do you
not know that's a bank?" Well, it turns out there was
a Southern Exchange Bank, and I'd used their bank routing number. And so, I mean, I always thought
that was funny that they, it was like, well, I remember really for a split second there, I was kind of like really embarrassed
that they called me. I was like, I can't believe
this, you're the Secret Service. Anyway, I talked to them. I, you know, there's, there's really, as far as the Secret Service is concerned, there's just not much I can tell them. There's just, you know, like it was me. Becky's already told them everything. Amanda's already told them everything. It's not hard to track. Now when they raided my house, they've got boxes and boxes. So it's laid out. We
still, it took forever. Like I still went through everything. I explained how I got
the driver's licenses, how I made the bank statements, how I made the birth certificates, how I, the whole social
engineering of figuring out how to, what these little loopholes are. It's like seven days
total with these guys. So. - You mean like in like question? - Yeah, it was like, they
questioned me for all day, and then they take me back
to the Marshalls holdover, and then the next morning I wake up and they chain me up
again and bring me back. - What's that like? What's that process of questioning? Like, are they, I mean, you're somebody who is exceptionally good at
conversation, charismatic, it was part of the games you played. Are they good at conversation? - I mean, you know, the problem is, they're not there to shoot the shit. You see what I'm saying? Like, they have an agenda. - But they have to use their words to get information outta you. Aren't they trying to manipulate you? - I'm not holding anything back. - Okay.
- I'm not, it's not like I'm sparing Jim, you know, it's trust me, Jim's gotta go. I mean, you're looking at,
you're there 20 some odd years, but Jim can do five. Bill can do some, Tom can do six. I don't even like, I
don't even like Jerry, Jerry can do 20, you
know, so I'm ready to, I'm ready to cut everybody's throat. - But you're not guaranteed
that, that you're not, you're getting anything for that. - Right, and all my
time, I've seen one time where an inmate got a guarantee
to have his sentence reduced and it was signed by the head of the FBI, was Robert Mueller, gave it to him to have a conversation with him. That's the only time I've
ever seen that document. - Okay, so a lot of days with both the Secret Service and the FBI. - So FBI was, Candace was
irritated, didn't like me. And I remember when I, she took the cuffs off, I
was like rubbing my wrist. She goes, "Your wrists hurt." And I go, "Yeah." And she goes, "Get used to it." I mean, she was just an asshole. - Yeah.
- Just all around. Not that she didn't have a right to be, but everybody else was professional. - Yeah.
- So. (Matt laughs)
- Oh, Candace. - So we, you know, we talked
for three or four days with the FBI. And you know, they asked
a ton of questions. They brought a ton of, they
brought documents, you know, so it's like, "Hey, who signed this?" You know, it's like, "Oh,
that's not my signature. That's so-and-so's signature." Or "I signed that. I
signed that. I signed that. That's so-and-so." "Where'd this check go? Who is this?" "Oh, that's so-and-so," you know, you're looking over everything. One of the things they
wanted to know about was, which I never talked
about, 'cause it seems, seems so minor, is I
bribed the politician. I got him elected because we got him elected
to the city council so he could vote to get the lots, we bought like a hundred
vacant lots in Ybor City. And I wanted them all, they
were all single family. We wanted them zoned multifamily. And so we bribed him and got him elected. - That doesn't seem minor. - It's not as sexy as the rest of stuff. - That's pretty, I mean,
- That's a whole nother thing. Like I mean, you know.
- All right. - So what happened is when they got all of the bank accounts, they see all these checks
going to Kevin White. And so they're like, "Why did James Red donate $500 to Kevin White? Why did Brandon Green donate?
Why did Allen Duncan donate? Why did," and you know, so I
had explained to him, "Oh yeah, well, he was, we wanted
him to be city councilman. So we paid, you know,
gave him a bunch of money so he could run the ads
so he could get elected so he could then get all of our stuff." But because he never did, you
know, I took off on the run before he was able to do that. And then he ended up getting,
not long, too, too long after that, he ended up
about five, six years later, he ended up getting indicted for bribery, but not mine on somebody else's case. - Can I take a small tangent here? - Yeah.
- And ask how many politicians do you think commit
crimes, are a little bit, or a lot criminals? - I mean, I think there's
some ways that are, you know, they're seemingly legal. - The aforementioned gray area. - Well, that's not gray. Like this guy was, like, at one point, I couldn't find anybody to
write $500 checks anymore. So I just gave him cash. Like, I'm just handing him
seven, $8,000, $10,000 in cash. So, but you know, I think most of them have legal ways
to make ungodly amounts of money for, you know, influence. You know. But is it legal?
No, they're politicians. They've made it so that it's not illegal. If you really sat down and explained it to someone, you know, the average person would
say that's not right. That, "Oh, no, no, that's legal." - So, okay, so at the
end of these few days, what was the sentencing like? - Yeah, I end up, I go to sentencing. I get my PSI back and
it's 32 years to life. - Yeah.
- And so we argue about it with the prosecutor
just before sentencing, and they get it down to
26 years, four months. And then Millie says,
"Listen, don't worry, 'cause I'm trying to
backpedal at this point. I'm like, I might as well go to trial. If I lost at trial. I
couldn't get more than 30." You can't, well, more than 32 years. 'Cause you can't get life. 32 was the max. It's just like a mistake. He said 32 years to
life, you can't get life. So it was like, the most
I can get is 32 years. So I was like, I'll go to
trial. Might as well go to trial and see if I can get them to reduce some of these enhancements. She insists that she can get
the enhancements knocked down. And if you read, they actually
read the enhancements. Some of the enhancements,
they didn't apply to me. So she goes, and you know, I believed her. And I think she, she
made a valid argument. We get to, we go to sentencing. My mom's there, she's
crying. My dad's there. He's looking at me like he's disgusted and crowd, there's a
whole bunch of reporters, like the whole place is packed. And I'm, I plead guilty. Millie gets up, my lawyer gets up and she argues these enhancements. And every single time, you know, the judge is like, "Eh, I disagree. You know, overruled." And it's like, boom, "Five
more years," you know, bam. "Six more years." Bam. 'Cause if she had won the enhancement, she argued I would've got 14 years. Now, keep in mind too, prior to this, a month or two prior to this, the US Attorney had
called Millie and said, "Look, 'Dateline,'" "Dateline" had already
come out by the way. Remember I was worried
about "Dateline" coming out. Well, it had come out, but
they wanted to do a follow up because it came out like a month or two after I got arrested. And they were saying,
"Hey, we wanna recut it with interviews with him." Well, Gail McKenzie wants,
that's the US Attorney. She wants me to do that. And she says, "I'll consider
that substantial assistance." Now, when you cooperate
with the government, they consider it substantial assistance. That's what they call it. So I cooperate with you,
it's substantial assistance. She says, "If he's
interviewed by 'Dateline,' we'll consider it substantial assistance." And Millie says, "You have to do it." - By the way, what's the idea behind that? That like, you serve as a warning for others or something like that? - Yeah, exactly, she's like, "You know, you become a cautionary tale. Like, don't let this happen to you." So I go and I'm interviewed by "Dateline," Keith Morris, or whatever his name is, you know that guy.
- Yeah. - Mr. Cox was, you know, that guy? So he comes and he interviews me, Becky's interviewed, I'm interviewed. Amanda's interviewed, like
Alison is interviewed, like everybody, the Secret service agent, I think has interviewed like everybody, prosecutor's interviewed. You know, it's funny, at
the time I would've, I was, when I watched it, I was like, "That's not true, and that's not true. And that, and," and
honestly, it's like 99% true. It's like looking back on it.
- Yeah. - You know, I'm like, you know, like, "My Audi TT wasn't
blue, it was silver." You know, it's just stupid. But anyway, so I'm interviewed by them and they recut it and they air the video. So, you said this was
substantial assistance. And then the other thing
is, I was interviewed by the FBI and the Secret Service. Now my lawyer calls the
prosecutor the night before sentencing and says, "Look, he was interviewed by "Dateline" and he was interviewed by the
Secret Service and the FBI. And if you do that, you said
you'd reduce his sentence, you'd consider it substantial assistance, and you would reduce his sentence. What are you going to ask for his sentence to be tomorrow at sentencing?" And she said, "We did consider
it substantial assistance and it's just not enough." "What do you mean?" "Nobody was arrested." "Yes, but what about "Dateline?" "Millie, I don't know what to tell you. It just wasn't enough." - We considered it.
- We considered it. We will consider it. And
they did consider it. So.
- Oh man. - Yeah, that's like the,
that's, you have to really, you know, the meaning of
words is so important. - I'm gonna use that at some point. I will consider it.
- I'll consider it. - I'll consider it. I considered it.
- It's not. (both laughing) So-
- And still feel the same. - So she calls me, I'm crushed. And she's like, "But look, you know, they're still investigating. They're gonna make these arrests." And so when you get a sentence
reduction at sentencing, it's called a 5K one. When you get a sentence reduction after sentencing, it's called a Rule 35. So she said, "We'll file a rule 35 as soon as the arrests are made. "Okay." So I go to sentencing and Millie says, "You're
gonna get 14 years. I'm gonna argue these enhancements." She argues the enhancements,
she loses the enhancements. Not that she's not an amazing attorney. She's an amazing attorney.
The judge wanted to hammer me. He hammered me. You know,
Millie was a great attorney. She was always polite to me. And by the way, to this day,
will answer my phone call. Like most public defenders,
you call them now, you call them after your sentence. They don't don't answer
your call. Great person. - Thank you, Millie.
- I didn't give her anything to work with. You know, it's like I'm a
little overwhelmingly guilty. It's like there's no defense. So I end up getting sentenced 26 years. - That's a lot of years. - I would like to tell you that they, when they gave me the time, you know, that I was stoic and I stood there and I took it in, you know, but the truth is, I cried like
a baby, like a small child. Like you've never seen anyone
cry like this in your life. I was just, how did I get 26? How, what did I do to get 26
years? Like murderers, rapists. I've met guys that
kidnapped guys that got 15. - 26.
- So yeah. - Were you scared?
- I mean, you know, does a pope wear a funny hat? Like of course I was
scared, I was terrified. - Yeah.
- I mean, you know, but I kept telling myself, "Ah, they're gonna reduce the sentence. They'll reduce it, they'll
reduce it, they'll reduce it. Like, okay, okay, okay.
It's gonna be okay. It's gonna be okay." You know, but it wasn't okay. I got sent, I got moved to Coleman, the Coleman Complex in Coleman, Florida, the Federal Correctional Coleman Complex in Coleman, Florida, which is the largest
complex in the nation, federal complex in the nation. There's a, at that time, there was a camp, which was a female camp. There was a medium security,
sorry, a low security prison for men, a medium security
prison, and two penitentiaries. And so I get moved to the medium. Now I'm moved to the
medium, not because like, that's where like real
criminals go, right? Like I'm a soft white boy. Like, I'm no danger to anybody. Like I hurt someone's feelings once, but other than that, I'm
not gonna be a problem. But if you have more
than 20 years to serve, you have to go to a medium. So even though my security
level said this guy should be in a camp, I had 20 years. So if you have, you can't go to a camp till you have less than 10. So as soon as I am given
26 years and, you know, 26 years, they knock off three, but you still have three
years to get below 20. So they go to the medium. So I go to the medium and
there are guys getting stabbed. The very first day
people are being stabbed. I get locked into, you go
to my cell, meet my cellie, they scream lockdown. Somebody got stabbed in the rec yard. I remember I asked my cellie, which I met 20 minutes earlier. I was like, "What's, you know," he's like, "Hey, we
gotta get in the cell." I was like, "What's going on?" He goes, "Somebody got
stabbed in the yard." And I go, "Somebody just got killed?" And he goes, "Nah, they just
stabbed him up a little bit." And I thought, oh my
God, you're in a place where they say stabbed
him up a little bit. Like, you're not prepared for this, bro. You gotta get outta here.
- Yeah. - So anyway, I go to the medium. I'm there. - Like, what was the first day and night? - Remember, I already had been locked up. - Yeah.
- In the county. And they're county jails
where they call them US. They're US marshal, they're holdovers, but they're really county jails. They just keep you with the federal guys. So I'm not mixed in with like, hobos and, you know, people like that. Like, I'm mixed in with
the federal people. - So already felt like a prison? - Yeah, I mean, it's a prison. I mean, it's jail, but it's a prison and unless you've been locked up, you don't really know the difference. So it's a jail. Jails
suck. Jails are much worse. The whole time I was locked up in these, in the jails waiting to be sentenced, guys were like, "I just
wanna get sentenced and go to prison, bro, I just." And I was like, "Why does
everybody keep saying that?" Like, prison's worse than this, bro. Like, I saw :Shawshank,"
like, it's horrible. And they're like, "Bro,
prison, listen, prison, I can walk the rec yard. I could go to the movie
room, watch movies. I'll, listen within, right after count," for this four o'clock count, they count everybody at four. So they are like, "Right after count, I'm gonna go to commissary. Somebody's gonna buy me an ice cream, I'm gonna be eating an ice
cream, walking on the rec yard the first day," like, and I'm,
you know, it's been months and months and months,
and I've been locked up in this county jail and I'm
thinking, I wanna go to prison. Like that sounds nice. I'd
love, I'd like an ice cream. - Yeah, but there was a stabbing
on the first day, sort of. - Yeah, well, you know,
everybody kept telling me I was gonna go to a camp,
you're gonna go to a camp, you're gonna go to a low. - I see.
- You know, and honestly, I was very quickly, I was
walking on the rec yard. I was, you know, so I was
at the medium, I got there, you know, it's a real
prison with the doors, bam. And they can open the little tray thing and feed you outta the tray and there's a stainless
steel toilet and sink. And you know, they have
that in the county too. But, you know, it's exactly what you think of prison as being. - But it feels like a
fundamentally different experience when it's 26 years and the door locks and- - Yeah. So I, yeah, I have a, a cellie and, but I'm also, as they sent me
to a prison where guys have, tons of guys have 30, 40, 50 years, you know, life sentences. There's gangsters there,
there's murderers, there's serial killers, there's,
you know, really bad guys. There's, you know, there's
guys that are, you know, trying to take advantage of guys, right? - Yeah like sexually or?
- Yeah. But by the time I got there,
I'd heard all the, you know how you can get yourself in trouble. You know how you can, like, don't go in somebody else's cell. You don't know the guy,
you're not 100% sure, do not go in his cell,
don't even go near his cell. Don't go into places where
people can close a door behind you or they can
trap you in an area. Don't, you know, there's all these things that I've been told not to do. - Again, for sexual reasons?
- Right? Because I'm a small guy in prison. - Yeah.
- You know. - Trapped a white dude. - Yeah, it's a problem. It's a problem. This. - Yeah.
- It's bad, it's all bad. - Well, it's good in the outside world, but bad in-
- You know. Yeah, my fear was there, make
me shave my head to make sure that the mop wig fits correctly. - Yeah.
- But there's certain things that, I always hate to say this,
but I mean, and it doesn't, this is the simplest
way to say it, is that if you get stabbed in
prison, you had it coming, you did something. Like they're not running
around just stabbing people. You did something. You, and the things that
get you hurt is you argue over the TV, what channel you wanna watch. You got 50, 80 guys watching one TV. Don't argue about it. Like it's none of just not worth it. Borrowing things that
and not returning them, that's a problem. Running up debts, that's a big problem. You know, gambling, gossiping, you know, those are the problems. Those things get you hurt. Not
being polite, be respectful. I'm super respectful. So I was respectful, very quickly when I got to Coleman, there are continuing education courses. One of the courses is
residential real estate. The guy that was running
the residential real estate didn't wanna do it anymore
because he was doing legal work and it just was taking too much time. So he came to me and said,
"Listen, you just got here. You got a real estate background
like nobody else does. Can you take over this class?" And I was like, "Sure." So I looked at his curriculum, I kind of rewrote it a little bit and I started teaching them
residential real estate class. And at one point I was
teaching two classes, like a semester or a quarter. And these guys loved it, bro. Like everybody, they all
think they're gonna get out and flip houses. So I started, you know,
from the fundamentals, I talk about credit, how to
borrow, how hard money lenders, different types of bar, like, everything. And, you know, guys are walking, it's the first time in
my life, this was funny. Not that I think I was really in a, ever in a position for this to happen. This was really odd though. Probably the second or third
class when guys are leaving and I'm having to check them off the roll, multiple guys are stopping
and saying, "Yo bro." Putting their hand out and shaking my hand and going, "Good class,
it was a good class, bro." Then I have guys coming to me telling me, "Hey, what are you teaching these guys?" I go, "What do you mean?" he goes, "My cellie's telling me he's gonna get out and make millions. I'm taking Cox's real estate class. I'm telling you I can do this.
I'm gonna be a millionaire." And it's like this flipping houses. Like this is not.
- Yeah. - But the truth is, if you know it is the, flipping houses was, what I
basically told these guys, especially the drug dealers, right? You're a drug dealer and you
were raised in the projects, and you're going back to
the projects like this is, this is the one industry or you know, that you will thrive at because you're a hustler. You're not afraid, a 45-year-old divorced white woman is not going into
the hood knocking on doors to try and flip houses. But you will. And you know, everybody
in the neighborhood and you'll knock on those
doors and you'll hustle and you'll, you've been told no before and you don't care and you're not scared. You're not this. And there's tons of money to
be made in lower income areas. And so, and then when I
go through the whole thing and how you can leverage, you
know, leverage your credit to borrow money to get into the property and rent, do the renovations
with very little money down. And I do the whole thing. These guys, like, they loved it. So I was, and what that
did for me was two things. One, if you got to the class,
40 guys show up for the class. And I say, "Look, if you don't want to go, you don't wanna be here, you just want it 'cause your counselor's
making you get a certificate. You don't wanna be here, that's fine. Bring me two coffees and like
two creamers from commissary and I'll fill out all your
paperwork and you'll pass. You'll get a certificate. I
don't have to see you again." I have full of coffee and creamer, 'cause at least 10 or 15
didn't wanna be there. The other guys seriously
wanted to be there. And I don't want those
guys to be there anyway. They're gonna be a problem. So the other guys are serious about it. And some of these guys sat
through the class 2, 3, 4 times. Some of these guys got
out and sent me money. So, you know, which is like
a huge sign of respect. You know, by the way, 'cause
they don't owe me anything. But I did that and I taught GED because, you know, I, you have
to do something for money. And, you know, I met some,
I met a bunch of cool guys and I was hanging out
and I was doing well. And after about three
years, they transferred me to the low security prison. At this point, like the
FBI starts showing up, asking me questions. They asked me questions about
the politician I bribed, you know, asked me questions about him. Statute of limitations was up and they were trying to tie
him into the bank fraud, 'cause his name was Kevin White and one of my guys' name
was Michael, Kevin White. And so they were trying
to tie him in, you know? "Did you, did he know about it? 'Cause if he knew about it, statute of limitations is 10 years. We could," "No, he didn't know." Should've thrown him in there. But anyway, 'cause like a couple years later he gets indicted, he
ends up going to jail anyway. - And it could've decreased your sentence. - Yeah. Listen, listen. Stop, stop. - Listen.
- Oh my God, - I got all my judgment out after the homeless conversation. - [Matt] Listen, it's
only gonna get worse. - I mean, I really appreciate your honesty and your insight about, like,
about snitching, honestly, that I have a sense that there's at least a desire for
loyalty in the world. - I, wouldn't that be nice? - Did you ever feel in
danger in medium or low? - It's funny. I had more problems at the, probably at the low than I did the medium. But at the medium, the only
thing that happened was, an article came out in the newspaper when I was at the meeting,
it came out and said, 'cause they're, you know, they're still investigating things. So this article comes out and I'm on the front page of
the "St. Petersburg Times." It was about the politician, big article. And in the article it says, they interviewed Millie, my lawyer. And she says, "Well, when
Mr. Cox was being interviewed by the FBI, one of the
first things they wanted to know about was this politician." So she just said, "Mr.
Cox was being interviewed by the FBI." So I immediately get taken into custody and they put me in the
SHU, in the hole, right? For my own protection. And
I'm there for like 45 days. And then after 45 days, they're like, "Cox, what do you want us to do? You want us to ship you?" I was like, "No, put me
back on the compound." I'm like, "Half the guys here cooperated." And he goes, "Yeah, it's more than half." He said, "But this is the guy from SIS," which is like their internal security. - So that's when he told you, that it's actually much higher percentage. - Right, but he goes, but 90 per, he said, "But 100% of them are lying about it." He said, "You just came
out in the newspaper." I go, "Man, I'm not concerned." If he's, "You are concerned, you gotta come immediately
to the lieutenant's office and tell us, we'll ship you." I said, "Okay." I get out there, people
are giving me like the, looking at me and, "What's up," you know, but I don't have a lot of friends anyway. And I didn't come there to make friends. And so at one point,
this one guy comes to me, I'm walking the yard
probably two days later after I get on back on
the compound, I'm walking. The guy comes to me, he has a goatee and he's got a, it comes down here and he is got a skull,
like a little skull thing he had made whittled
outta wood or something. And, you know, definitely looked scary. But, so I'm walking and he stopped and he goes, "Hey Cox," I've never talked to these guys. I had been there for a year or so and never talked to any of these guys. They're all like bikers and
you know, Arian brotherhood. And so, you know, I'm
like, "Yeah, what's up?" He said, "Bubba," Bubba's their leader. He goes, he goes, "Bubba told me to tell you not to walk the yard. He don't wanna see you out in the yard." And I went, "Okay." I said, "Well, I'm gonna
walk the yard tonight." I said, "And if I get
the shit kicked outta me, then I get the shit kicked outta me." - But did you talk back to a guy with a wooden skull hanging off his beard? - I did, but you know what, it was right in front of the guard shack. And so there's guards in
the guard shack, you know, like, they're 20 feet away.
- Really? You weren't scared? - I mean, I think I just got numb. Like I'm not stupid, but
I'm all, I'm walking around. I'm, you know, I was scared
from the moment I got there on, if that makes sense. So you get to a point
where you're just numb and you're waiting for it. Especially when I got outta
the SHU, got outta the SHU, I went straight to my cell, laid down. Couple minutes later it was locked down. They closed the doors, I
wake up the next morning, I go to chow, I go to my job,
like it starts all over again. So I was, I had a very packed routine, so I didn't spend, although
there's guys everywhere and I'm thinking at some point I might just be walking around. A guy might walk up and
just smash me in the head. But it didn't happen. And it's not, the guys
aren't getting stabbed, but they've got it coming. I didn't tell on anybody
here. I didn't do anything. It's not that on other yards I might not have gotten smashed,
but I didn't get smashed. And I'd been there a while and I taught the real estate class, and everybody wanted to take real estate. So I think that insulated me to a degree. I also had made a few friends there, and I think they were probably also kind of putting out the words like,
"Bro, cut this guy a break." So I'm walking across and I tell the guy, I said, "Look man," I said, you know, and
I wasn't rude to him. He wasn't even rude to me, really. He said, "Don't walk the yard anymore, Bubba doesn't want you
to walk in the yard." I said, "Well, listen, I'm gonna go to chow and then
I'm gonna go out there tonight and walk the yard, and if I
get smashed, I get smashed." I go, "Because I got 26 years and I cannot walk around
for the next 26 years, not going on the yard." I said, "So I'm gonna be there and if that happens, then that happens." And he looked at me and he goes, "Man, I don't give a fuck what you do." He's, "That's what Bubba
told me to tell you." He said, "I told you." And he goes, "I don't
give a shit what you do." And he walked off. I went out there that night with a buddy of mine named Zach, a
guy named John Gordon, with my cousin and a
couple of his buddies. We walked the track for about an hour. Bubba and a group of his guys
stood there and looked at us. And as we walked, probably
closest we got to them was 30 or 40 feet, that
went on for 30 minutes. And then they kind of broke up
and went their separate ways. And you know, there was a
couple of times where I would go to the chow hall and I would go and I'd be sitting at a
table and Bubba would walk up and tell the other guys at the table, "I wanna let you guys know you're," he didn't even call me a snitch. He said, "You're sitting
with a cooperating witness." He said, "That's how you wanna roll." He said, "You ain't gonna be rolling with us if there's any trouble." And then they all kind of looked at me and they got their plate
and they moved off. He didn't tell me to move. And he could've walked up and said, "This is a snitch, motherfucker." He didn't do that. Bubba
was very respectful. So as respectful as you could be in that situation.
- Whatever you wanna say about Bubba, he was a respectful man. You ever talked to him directly? - Never had a conversation with him. So that went on. But I mean, not, when I say
that went on, I mean like, literally, like that's a couple of times. He said the same thing to
a guy in line one time. Guy came up to me later and said, "Look, man, but I'm sorry, Matt. He was standing next to me in line. Bubba said something to him. He went like 10 or 15 people back and stood in line. Later on he came up to me, "Matt, I'm sorry bro,
but you know, Bubba." But I said, "Bro," I
said, "Look, I get it. We're not friends, don't worry about it." And here's the thing, at
some point there, I got, I ended up getting, well, the FBI started showing
up there at the prison questioning me about my files in Tampa, the one of the 12 guys that were indicted, they show up and they
start asking me about it. And so they're still kinda working it. Well, at the same time,
I end up getting moved to the low security prison. I get the low security prison. They show up over and over again. But at some point they come to me and they say, "Look, we
went to the US Attorney, we presented everything we have. I have enough for an investor. I have enough for to
indict all of these guys." I think it was whittled down
to maybe eight instead of 12. And they said, "Look, the entire economy's melting down." At this point, these are, some of these are four or five years old. We don't, we've got banks that
are melting down right now. We got a hundred, 200, 300 million, 500, half a billion dollar banks
that we're investigating. We don't have time to deal with this. We're not gonna in, we're not
going to indict those people. So they get away. The agent I was working with, her name was Leslie
Nelson, very nice person. She came, actually didn't have to do this, came to the prison to tell
me this is what happened. And when she'd first come
to see me, I told her, "Listen, I wanna do all this, but no matter what happens, I need you to write me a letter. If they don't, and if they
don't indict these people, I need you to write me a
letter that I can present to the US Attorney on my behalf that I did everything I could." And she goes, "I'll do that,
but that's not gonna happen. We're gonna get the indictments,
everything," I was, "Okay." So of course a year later she
shows up after nothing happens and they dropped the case, she shows up and she tells me what happened
and he's not gonna do it. And I was, I go, "Do you
remember that you," she goes, I got the letter right
now," gave me the letter. She goes like, "That's it." Great letter. You know, it says, you know, "Mr. Cox has worked," you
know, blah, blah, blah. "He's done this," this is great. And even said, you know, "He deserves a reduction in
my opinion," blah, blah, blah. So, but there's no, there's
nobody, nobody was arrested. So I call my public defender, I called Millie, I explain it to her. And you know, she starts, you know, she starts crying and she's sorry. And, "Well, what are we gonna do?" Well, there's nothing you can do. You're time barred. Like you have one year to file a 2255, which is to say that your
lawyer is ineffective, or that the court has made
a mistake in some way. And it had been over a year, and it had been years,
it'd been like four years. And she's like, "Yeah,
I mean, you're just, there's nothing you can do." And she's in tears. And I kind of feel like I'm done. At that point I'm done. And what I do is I start
writing a book, right? I write a memoir, my memoir. And this is not a shameless
plug for my memoir, by the way, which is amazing, just saying. But so what happens is, I actually write it, you know, I write it and then I have to rewrite it, right? 'Cause I don't really know
what I'm doing, you know, and I've been reading true
crime and that sort of thing, and I've always liked true crime. I get a literary agent, comes to see me, tells me I have to rewrite some stuff. We rewrite it. As I'm finishing up my
memoir, there's a guy that comes on the compound, and
his name is Efraim Diveroli. Efraim Diveroli and his business partner, a guy named Packouz, were selling munitions, AK-47 rounds. Really tons of munitions. But they got in trouble with this, and they were selling
them to the US government for the Afghani Security Forces. And there had been an article in "Rolling Stone Magazine" about him. And I'd read it and
somebody points him out and says, "Hey, that's that guy that's," and I went up to him, I said,
"Hey, bro, you just got here?" He is like, "Yeah." And I said, "Look, if
you wanna write a memoir or anything, I'm finishing my memoir. I can always help you. I can help you write an outline. You can get a professional writer, whatever is you need help,"
he's like, "Yeah, all right." Efraim Diveroli was played by Jonah Hill in the movie, "War Dogs." So a few months later, he comes to me and says, you know, "Hey,
they sold the movie rights." I was like, "Oh wow, that's great." And I'm like, "And you
don't wanna write a memoir?" And he's like, "Yeah, man, it was sold to the guys from the "Hangover" movie. And I was like, "So the guys from the "Hangover" movie are going to make a movie about you." I said, "You understand,
they're gonna call it like, 'Dude, Where's My Hand Grenade?' And you're gonna be Spicoli from "Fast Times At Ridgemont High. Like, you're gonna be a joke, all because you don't wanna write a memoir and get your version out there." And he was like, "Holy shit." So I end up writing an outline for him. We worked together, and then he asked that,
"Can I read your book?" And I was like, "Sure," and I
give it to him and he reads it and he comes back and
he said, "Bro," he says, "This is the best thing
I've ever read in my life." And to be honest, I
later found out he'd read about three books in his entire life. But still, it was very, it was very nice. - Still to bring out the other two. - So he asked me if I'll write
his book, I write his book. We work out a deal. And we do that 'cause, and I'm saying all this because I basically settle in. I'm done, I'm gonna do 26 years. - By the way, just in a
small tangent, how did you, how did you know you'd be good at writing? - I'd kind of written a manuscript prior to even taking off on the run. I used to listen to John
Grisham books, you know, I'd listen to him in the car. Like I like John Grisham books. And I'd actually written a manuscript about a mortgage broker. You know, he writes about
lawyers and it's like, lawyer, being a lawyer is not exciting. If you can make that sound exciting I can make being a mortgage broker. And I wrote a book, you
know, put it at my desk and you know, the FBI found it. And they had, you know,
said, "Oh, it's a blueprint to the fraud that he's going to commit." It wasn't, stop, it's as much, that character was as much me as John Grisham's characters are him. - But it's still kind of interesting that- - It is
- Because John Grisham didn't. - Right, I mean, you know,
if John Grisham did something similar to what one of the, you know.
- Yeah, I saw a quote somewhere that the
criminal is a true artist and the detective is merely a critic. Something like that. Does that resonate with you or not? - I'll have to look that up.
- Okay. So you already knew you could write? - Well, I knew I liked it,
but yeah, I think I got better and better at it. I mean, you know, as you're writing and they had creative
writing classes, you know, in prison at the low, you know, the low was a much
different breed of animal, you know, like it, you know, it was, you could very easily get hurt. You could get hurt either place. But there were guys
that have life sentences that had been working out for 20 years and were just super angry,
you know, at the medium. And if you got hurt at the medium, it was probably really go bad, as opposed to you get hurt at the low, it's more like a fist
fight in high school. So with knives. So anyway, so I'm there,
I'm writing, I'm doing that. And there was a guy on the compound that came on the compound
about that same time. His name was Frank Amodeo. Frank Amodeo is a rapid cycling bipolar with features of schizophrenia - Rapid cycling, bipolar with
features of schizophrenia. - Schizophrenia,
- Rapid cycling. - So it's just constant, right? And so there are moments
in his manic state where his reoccurring psychosis, I guess is that he believes, and since he was in his
early teens, has believed that he is preordained by God
to be emperor of the world. He's a lawyer. Disbarred, stole close to $200 million from the federal government. They gave him 22 years and
they sent him to Coleman. But it doesn't, this is the part I love. The delusions don't affect his legal work. It doesn't say a ton for legal community. But-
- How do you know he's delusional? I'm just asking questions. - Yeah, he's, trust me,
I mean, it's not me. It's like the transcripts, the lawyers, the doctors, you know. Yeah, there's a ton of, a ton.
- All right. - And then if you saw him in action, you'd be like, "Oh, wow." You know, he would be completely normal. He would be having a
completely normal conversation, and somebody would say something and he would, he'd go,
"That makes me so angry. I can't, I'm not gonna let them do that. When my legions march on Washington, we are going to burn the constitution, and the president will kneel at my feet" And he goes, "I'm gonna need your transcripts. I'm gonna need a 2255 form. We're gonna file a," you
know, and it would just like, and everybody would sit there
and be like, "Okay, Frank, I'll get to this and
I'll get," it was insane. It was the most insane. He was basically running
a medium-sized law firm from inside of the prison. He was training people. He taught the legal research class and was training people on
how to do legal research in prison, how to put together motions, how to fight, fight their
cases, how to do the research, how to type them up, everything. He's teaching a law. It is just like a law school, right? Like he's teaching these guys, he, listen, they made such a mistake
locking this guy up. - So he is a great lawyer. - Listen, it's gonna get worse. It's gonna get worse. Because here's what
happens is at this point, I don't talk to him for
probably a year or so because everybody's saying
he's crazy, you know? And he's, and then for
like a year he gets there, he's drooling out of
the side of his mouth. They got him on a ton of medication. It takes him about a year to get them, to take him off the medication. So he gets them to take
them off the medication and then he starts kind
of stabilizing his mood by drinking Pepsi. I know, bro, it's crazy,
I know it's crazy. I know how, I see you looking at me like this guy's delusion. I know, but.
- It works, whatever works. - So at some point, one
of my buddies comes to me and says, "Look, you
gotta go talk to Frank." Well, here's the other thing. Over the course of a year or two that he starts doing legal work for guys, he starts just taking on guys' cases. "I'll do the motion, I'll do
your legal work, I'll do this." Keeps him busy, but suddenly you start
hearing people get released. You know, Jimmy just got 10
years knocked off his sentence. He's going to halfway house next month. You know, Tom got an immediate release. Frank's walking people up to
R and D, shaking their hands. Guys are walking up to
him in tears, crying. And so, you know, crazy or not, what choice do I have? I called three different
lawyers on the street and said, "This is what
happened, what can I do? What can I do? They had me, they told me to
do this and this and this, and I worked with them, and then they decided not to proceed. And what can I do?" And they said, "You're hit, bro. There's nothing you can do. You cannot, in the middle,
in the 11th circuit, you cannot force them to file
a reduction on your behalf. You cannot do it. It's impossible. You're hit, you're done. It's over. I'd love to take your money, Mr. Cox, but it's not gonna happen. I don't, I can't, I'm not
just gonna take your money. You're gonna lose." Three different lawyers. I talked to, I or T.I.'s lawyer. Told me, "Well, it's not
gonna happen, it's over." So my buddy says, "Go talk to Frank." I said, "Well, why wouldn't I? I got nothing else to lose." So I go talk to Frank. He actually has a little manic moment, that little thing that I just showed you. That's exactly what he said
the first time I talked to him. - Based on your case.
- Yes. "I won't let this happen." He's like, "I'm gonna
need your transcripts. I'm gonna need you to get this. I need to see your indictment. I'm gonna need your pre-sentence report. I'm gonna need." It's like, "Okay." And
I turned to my buddy. He's like, "Bro, I know, I
know what you're thinking. It's fine." "Fucking crazy." And he's like, he's like, "I understand. Let just, what choice do you have?" I was like, "Fuck." So Frank files a 2255 motion on my behalf, stating that I'm not time barred that Millie was, we file it against Millie stating that she was ineffective, right? That she didn't understand the law. She had me plead to something, 'cause she thought I could get a reduction simply for doing "Dateline." Oh, by the way, when I was in the medium, the government came to me and asked me to be interviewed by "American Greed." I do that, I'm interviewed, you know, they get me on the phone. They talk to me, everything. The prosecutor wants me to
do it. She's re-interviewed. Everybody's re-interviewed. It airs, Millie goes to them, to the government, says,
"Look, reduce the sentence." They go, "No, Millie, it's not enough." Then they come to me and they ask me to write an ethics and fraud course. I write an ethics and fraud course. The guy I write the
course with, he flies up to Atlanta, he talks
with, I think he drove up, but he goes up to Atlanta, he talks with a US
Attorney, talks to Millie. She insists, "If he does this,
I will reduce his sentence. I will definitely consider this." Definitely consider.
- Yeah, definitely consider. - And then we do it. It's being used all over the nation. Not enough.
- Considered, yeah. - So that's where, at
this point, I go to Frank. I tell Frank what's happening. Frank says, "Yeah, this is," he goes, "Every time they asked
you to do something, it reset the time bar. You have a year from that
time to file a 2255." Now, he insists that that
was a viable argument. Nobody else does. But he said, "I'm not
gonna let them do this. I'm gonna take care of this. I'm gonna get your sentence reduced." Okay, emperor. Okay, emperor.
(Lex laughs) So he was a character. Anyway, so he files a 2255. The government comes back,
they say, "He's time barred." Frank comes back, he you
know, they answer his motion. He files a retort. They file, you know, it
just goes back and forth. This goes on for six months to a year. And at some point I go to mail call, and, you know, they call my name and they hand me this
thing and I open it up and it says, "The government's
filed a motion for a stay" so that they can, they want the court to appoint me a lawyer and to discuss filing a rule 35, reducing my sentence. And, you know, I'm like, I read it, but I couldn't even understand. Like, well, I don't understand. So, I mean, I rushed to go find Frank. I show it to Frank and he says, "Yeah, they're staying it,
they're gonna send you a lawyer and you're gonna negotiate for how much they're gonna
reduce your sentence." He said, "It's perfect." So they fly this woman down,
her name was Esther Panitch. She flies down, comes
to the visitation room, they bring me there, the lawyer's room, whatever they call it, and
so we're sitting there, and I remember we're talking and she says, "Listen, your, your motion, you're 2255, it's written well, but honestly, you don't
have much of a prayer. And they're offering you
a one level reduction, which is 30 months." And I went, "Oh, that's,
that's not enough." And she said, "Well, I don't
know what to tell you." She said, "They're willing
to bring you back." And I was like, "Well, you know, I mean, I don't know,
I gotta talk to Frank. Frank said I deserve this many levels." And, you know, we're going back and forth. She says, "Who's Frank?" And I go, "Frank's the guy
that's doing all my legal work." She goes, "He didn't write all this? And I was like, "No."
She goes, "Who wrote?" And I explained it to her and she's like, "He's an inmate?" And I was like, "Yeah." And she's, "Why is he here?" And I tell her, "Well, 'cause
she stole a bunch of money from the federal government, 'cause he's trying to
take over the world." So I tell her that whole thing. And she's like, "You're
letting a mentally incompetent, you know, person, do your legal work." And I was like, "Yeah, because all the competent attorneys wouldn't do it." They said I didn't have a prayer. Your people said, I didn't have a prayer. And I said, "Frank said he was gonna, he could get this done." And she's like, "Well, I mean,
you know, you don't like, I don't even know why they're
offering you one level." I was like, "Well, Frank said," you know, and I'm like, "Frank this, Frank that." And so she and I end
up saying, she's like, "You're taking advice from a
legally incompetent person." I said, "Yeah." And she said, "You know, you
really don't have a prayer." I said, "Then why are you here?" I said, "If they could crush me so easily, why are you here?" I said, "They're giving me one level. Lemme talk to Frank, I'll let
you know what we're gonna do." So I leave, I call her
a couple days later. I tell her, Frank and I talked to Frank. Frank said, "Go back, go
back and argue for more." He said, "I think the judge
is gonna give you more. He's gonna give you at least, you know, between whatever he said," like six or seven levels or something. So I get moved all the
way back to Atlanta. The FBI agent comes to talk on my behalf. The guy that, like multiple people show up to talk on my behalf. They say, you know, Millie, who I filed the 2255 against. So I'm basically saying,
"You're ineffective, you're incompetent," you
know, but she knows the game. She's like, "I get it." She gets on the stand
and testifies for me. So the judge goes, "Eh, you know, listen," I think we were asking
for like nine levels or something outrageous. Prosecutor starts arguing for one level. And he said, "Listen, one
level is not nearly enough for what Mr. Cox has done." He said, "Mr. Cox, I know you're arguing for nine levels off your sentence." He goes, "That was never gonna happen." I was like, it felt like I got slapped. And he said, "So I'm
gonna go with six levels." No, no, I'm sorry. He said, three levels. "I'm gonna go with three levels." He goes, "Which is seven years." Which he said, "For somebody
who has no arrest associated with his case, he said,
I think it's pretty good. And that's my," that's his judgment and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And he hammered, put the, puts
the gavel down and walks off. And that's it. It's over,
I guess seven years. And I was hoping for more. So
I get moved back to Coleman. I get moved back to Coleman
and I go to up to Frank, and I said, Frank, I got seven years off. And he is like, "I know, I know." I said, "And I don't mean
to sound unappreciative. I said, I just," I said,
"I was hoping for more." He goes, "I was too." He said, "It looks like we're gonna have to eat this elephant
one spoonful at a time." And he goes, "Something will come out, something's gonna happen." He said, "Keep your ears
open. Something will happen." And I said, "Okay." And you know, I honestly, by that point, I'd done, you know, I'd done eight years and I remember like if I got a
year off for the drug program and good time and this,
and I had about eight or eight years left to go or
something, nine years left. And I was like, you know, I can do that. I'll write, you know, I'd been writing. By that point, I'd
actually written a story. Like I got a book deal
for Diveroli, you know, and I ended up writing a synopsis of a guy's story. And I got him in "Rolling Stone Magazine." And I got a book deal for that. Like, I got an advance,
it was like 3,500 bucks for being in prison, a prisoner
to get a 3,500 advance. Like I'm a millionaire.
It's a lot of money. So, and then we optioned the film rights. Basically the synopsis that
I wrote for this reporter, journalist for "Rolling Stone." He goes to "Rolling
Stone" with what I wrote and gives it to them and they okay it, they say, "Yeah, this is great. We want you to write an
article based on this." Okay, he writes the article, he tells me that the article will be from him. His name, Guy Lawson. Douglas Dodd, which is the name of the kid I wrote the memoir about, and Matthew Cox. A couple of weeks before it's going, the article is going to be published, he tells me "Rolling
Stone" doesn't want my name on the article because
I'm in federal prison and doesn't look good, but don't worry, he's gonna
put my name in the article. And that's just as good. And
I argue it's not just as good. It's not, I'm like, "I would be a writer for 'Rolling Stone Magazine.' Like you understand, I'm trying
to, I'm trying to come up with something here that
I can rebuild my life as a true crime writer. That's no good." What the, and that wasn't so bad. That wasn't the worst of,
the worst of it was 90% of the article that he published was taken directly from what I sent him. Like, I mean, sick to my
stomach, bro, just sick over it. So, but they option, they
option the life rights for that. And I got a piece of that.
So there's like $7,000. I get a check for that. So I'm thrilled, I can keep writing. 'Cause you have to understand
writing on the computer there, they charge you. So I start write, oh, they
charge you for phone calls, writing, comma, every
single thing costs money. So I start writing all
these guy's stories. I start writing books. I just come back from,
went back to Atlanta, got seven years knocked
off my sentence, come back and I'm walking around the compound. Now, there was a guy that
was there named Ron Wilson. Ron Wilson ran in the, if
you look in the newspaper, it says it's like a hundred
million dollar Ponzi scheme, but really it was $57 million. So he had lost 57 million. So it says a hundred, you know, they, you know, they always exaggerate. 'Cause 57's not enough. Ron ended up getting 19 and a half years. Ron was an old con man, early 60s, 62, 61, I don't know. And Ron, and I liked Ron. So we're walking around the compound and he's like, "So what are you gonna do? I mean you got like eight
or nine more years to go." And I was like, "Eh, you
know, I'm gonna keep writing and when I get outta here,
maybe I'll have a huge body of work and maybe I'll be able to sell it. Or maybe I'll be able to
option some more stuff. And if I could get together
with 'Rolling Stone' or get with some of these
magazines, I could start writing for them and I could option those. Maybe I could walk outta
here with something." So, "Right, right, right." So Ron was, who'd only
been locked up like a year or so, he was cooperating with the Secret Service in his case, against some of his co-defendants. So he's already been debriefed and he's cooperating, he's
actually thinking he might get brought back to have
to testify at a trial. We're talking and we're walking and he keeps saying, you know,
"Even if I, even if they, they charge those guys,
and even if this happens, they're not gonna reduce my sentence. They're not gonna cut my sentence." And you know, first of all, well probably because you stole a bunch
of money from pension funds and churches, that didn't help your case. But I don't say that. So I say, oh, they have to, bro, they'll have to, they've, you know, if you cooperate, they're gonna have to, and if they don't, we'll
have Frank file a 2255." And he's like, "Ah, that crazy mother." So he says, "Okay." He's like, "Yeah, yeah,
you don't understand. You don't understand." So this goes on for months. And I'm like, "What is the problem?" And he says, "You know, they think I hid Ponzi scheme money," you know, and he'd actually dug up like five or $6 million in Ponzi
scheme proceeds that he dug. He'd buried in these-
- Oh, literally. - Literally buried in
aluminum ammunition canisters. Super interesting guy. So he actually went and dug
them up and gave them to him. And I'm like, "Well, you
gave them all the money. It's, you didn't hide anything. Relax, it's not a big deal. They're not gonna find anything,
so don't worry about it." And so he mentions it
a couple weeks later, a couple weeks later,
and then one day I go, "Bro, why do you keep bringing this up? Like, what are you concerned about? They're, it's not gonna happen." And he said, "Can I trust you?" And I went, "Probably not." And he goes,
(Matt laughs) "I did hide some money." I was like, "Okay." I said, "You know, you
bury it in a can somewhere? And he's like, "No." He said, "I gave my wife
like 150,000 in cash." I said, "Okay, well she's
not gonna say anything she's using it." He said, "No, you don't understand. Since then she found out
I was having an affair and we're gonna get a
divorce and she hates me. And I think she'll turn that money in just to make sure that I
don't get a reduction." 'Cause if you lie to the
FBI, they're not gonna, it doesn't matter what
you've done for them, they won't give you anything. And so he's, I'm sorry,
it's Secret Service or anybody, he has clearly
lied to the Secret Service at this point. If she goes and says,
"This is what he gave me." So he's like, I was like, "Oh, wow." And he's like, "And I gave
my, my brother's holding maybe 30,000 for me." And at that moment I was like,
wow, like this poor guy. No, that's not what I thought at all. What I thought was, is that enough to get me a sentence reduction? - You son of a bitch.
(Matt laughs) - And I went and I sat there and you know what I
thought, I thought, I did, I thought, no, I thought,
that's not enough. That's not enough. It's nothing.
That's not even $200,000. Like, and they didn't want
to give me a reduction. My prosecutor was pissed
that I got seven years off. She wanted me to get 30 months. She's not gonna give me
anything. It's up to her. She's not gonna do it. So I go, I lay down, I go to bed. Like a month later I'm on
the phone with my lawyer, 'cause I had written,
remember I wrote a man, I had a manuscript from my book, and I wanted to put some of
the stuff that was said at my, in my sentencing in the book. So I was trying to get my lawyer to mail me my transcripts
and she hadn't done it. So I called her and I said,
"Listen, you said you're gonna," she's like, "Oh God man, I'm so sorry. I'm so busy. I'll do it, I'll do it." And then she went, this is Esther. She goes, "So what else
is going on in there?" And this, she never wanted to talk to me. Like she didn't, you know, when they were paying her,
she didn't want to talk to me. And I was like, "What
do you mean? Nothing. I just need my transcripts and she's like, "Nothing's happening? There's nothing you wanna talk about?" And I was like, and I went,
"You know what? You know what? There's something weird
happened. Listen to this." And I told her about Ron Wilson. And she goes, "Hold on. (Matt imitates typing) And she looks him up on the computer. She goes, "Oh wow. This is a
bad guy. This is a bad guy. And he told you, and you know where to?" I said, "Absolutely, and
I can tell you exactly." And she goes, "Okay, okay, okay." She goes, "Let me look
into this." I go, "Okay." So, a week later, a CO comes
to me and goes, "Hey Cox." And I go, "What's up?" He goes, "Listen, at the next move," 'cause you know, they
have controlled moves. All the doors are locked and they open them up for 10 minutes. So you can run to the chow hall or you can run to the,
you can't run though. No running on the compound. But you can walk fast.
- Move quickly, yeah. - Yes, to the rec yard
or the library, whatever. He says, "At the next move go to SIS." You know, so I go to SIS on the next move. But I was used to going there, by the way, because I was constantly ordering Freedom of Information Acts. And they would, so I'd
order your, you're an inmate and I'd order, I'm
writing a story for you. And I'd order it and they'd send it to me. And then they would catch
it and they'd be like, "Why are you getting Lex's information?" So they'd call me down there
and I go, "No, I ordered it for him and I'm writing a story. And I'd already been in
"Rolling Stone" and everything. They're like, "What's the story?" And I tell them the story, they go, "It's a pretty good story, here." And so I go down there,
but this is different. This, the guy answers the door and his guy, they call him Bulldog and he was a real asshole. He was a lieutenant at SIS and he's like, "Come in here,
get in here, Cox, sit down." And he dials the phone and he goes, "Here, you
gotta talk to this guy." And I'm like, "What?" And I pick up the phone,
I'm like, "Hello?" And the guy goes, "Hey,
this is Agent Griffin with the Secret Service. I understand, you know,
where Ron Wilson is, has hidden Ponzi scheme money." I went, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I want something in writing. I want, you know, so I start
doing that and they go, "Okay." Then I get his email address and we start emailing
each other back and forth. And he ends up getting a
letter from the US Attorney in South Carolina that says they will consider it
substantial assistance if they make arrests or recover a substantial amount of money. That's the best I'm gonna get is consider. So I start talking to this guy and he starts asking me
questions about Ron Wilson. Like, "Hey, ask him this, ask him this." So I'm like, "Bro, I
gotta kind of work that into a conversation, that's
an odd thing to ask." So this goes on for six months. So I'm asking questions and
I'm typing up little reports and I'm a prison snitch now. So I'm not just like cooperating, I'm now, I'm a prison snitch. So I've moved down, I've moved down actually from being just a cooperating witness or- - Because you're in prison? Is that what makes you a prison snitch? - Prison snitch. You can't even really say, no, you could say prison rat. You could say prison rat. I think prison snitch. I think that's probably
the closer to the term that most guys would use. - What's the difference between a snitch and a rat in prison? - I'm not sure. It rolls
off the tongue better. Prison rat doesn't sound
as good as prison snitch. I don't know, I don't spend a lot of
time thinking about this. So what happens is, I'm asking Wilson questions periodically, and at some point they contact me and they say, "Listen, Wilson's
about to get some bad news." And I go, "Okay." And they go, "He's, you know, like, I wouldn't wanna tell you what it is. Let us know what happens." It's like two days go by and one day Wilson comes up to me one day and says, "Cox, Cox." And I'm like, "Oh shit." I'm like, "Hey, what's up?" You know? And he is like, "Oh, you're
not gonna believe this. I got indicted." I was like, "What? What happened?" No!" "Yeah, my wife, they questioned my wife and my brother and my
brother, my wife walked in. First she said, 'I don't have nothing. I don't know what you're talking about.'" The next day the brother
walks in and gives them $150,000 in cash. And so the next day the wife comes back and gives him $250,000 in cash and a bunch of silver, like gold bullion and silver, you know? 'Cause his Ponzi scheme
was based off of silver. You know, he was gonna
invest in silver for you. So half a million dollars,
they turn over half a million. I'm like, "Half a million dollars? I thought you said it was
like 100,000 or something." And he's like, "I know, I
didn't know I could trust you." I'm like, "Ron, what are you doing? I thought we were." So, I'll tell you something just for the icing on
the cake, by the way. The icing on the cake. Lemme
explain one more thing. - Yep.
- There's, so if you're gonna, if somebody cooperates with
the federal government, let's say I get arrested and they go, "You want to help yourself?" And you go, "Yeah, okay, look, Jimmy is a, he lives next to me and
he's running a meth house," you know, a meth lab, whatever. And they go and they raid
Jimmy and he gets arrested. You're gonna get something off of that. Not a lot, but you're gonna get something. Now, and they could just say, "We were gonna bust him anyway. We were already onto him," right? Now, the next level
would be you wear a wire. So I wore a wire and I was in danger. Now keep in mind, I'm
asking this guy questions inside federal prison, I'm in danger. So whatever, that's like the next level. You're active, you're taking
an active participation in the investigation. And the third level would be
you actually get on the stand and you cooperate and you testify. There's no better cooperation than that. So when Wilson says to me, "They're gonna move me
back to South Carolina, they've indicted me, they charged me, what do you think I should do?" And I go, "I think you
should go to trial," because I know they'll have
to call me as a witness. Just to let you know, 'cause I don't, I don't want you to, I don't wanna walk outta here and have you feeling, feeling
like, hey, there's some, there's some good to this guy. - No.
- So I'm ready, I'm ready to cut Wilson like a fish. - So.
- Yeah. But you are putting yourself in danger if you get on the stand, right? - I'm already in danger. If people there heard what I was doing, I probably would've been in danger. - Does that increase the
chance of them hearing or no? if you go to court.
- It does, but it also increases my ability to get more off my sentence. So what happens is, a couple days later, he's on what's called the Packout, right? They're gonna move him maybe a week later. So they come and get him, they
move him, he gets back there to South Carolina and he pleads guilty. They sentence him, he
gets six months added on. So he is now on from 19
and a half to 20 years. And by the way, when COVID
hit, he was released. So he only ended up doing like six years on a 20 year sentence
because he was older. He's, by that point,
he's 66, 67 years old. You know, he's an old, anybody older than 55 was endangered, especially in the prison. So they had a COVID thing where they were releasing these guys and sending them home on ankle monitors. Like he's an old man, he's not,
he you, he's not gonna hurt. He's not a danger. So they sent him home. So he ended up doing, so he didn't even serve the six months. He didn't even serve the
original sentence, whatever. Not that I care. So I'm just saying it makes
you feel like poor Ron, it's okay, so his wife got
like a hundred year a hundred. She got like a hundred
hours of community service or something, or 60 hours. And I think his brother
got six months papers. So they got charged with
obstruction of justice, you know, and they didn't,
neither one of them, you know, just like six months probation and community service, nothing. So when we, I turn around,
I'm waiting for my reduction, waiting, waiting. After about 90 days after this guy gets
sentenced, maybe six months, I send a letter, "Hey, what's going on?" to the prosecutor, to my prosecutor, their the prosecutor, both
districts, no response. Then I go to Frank, I explain to Frank and Frank has known what's
going on the whole time. And Frank goes, "Okay,
I'm gonna file a 2255." So we file a 2255, government comes back and they, first thing
they say is, "Your Honor, we don't know about any cooperation. We've never heard about any cooperation." So of course then we submit
the letter that we have. The judge comes back and the the judge ends up saying, "It's a little complicated," but he ends up saying, "Look,
I don't have jurisdiction to hear this because
you may be time barred, but I'm gonna let the
appeals court hear it." Now, typically you have
to get what's called a, like a right of cert, a
certification to appeal. You have to make sure that
you actually have a case. He says, "I'm waiving the cert and I'm waiving the $500
fee to file with them." He said, he basically expedites it for me. Which is a subtle way of
telling the prosecutor, "I think he's got something
and I'm sending it up there." And the way he writes his motion, it's basically saying, "I
don't have the jurisdiction to hear it, to do anything, but they do. They need to do it. And I'm paving the way. You don't have to pay any money and you don't need that cert." So the prosecution immediately comes back, they file a one level reduction. And we immediately, Frank
files something saying, "Hey, stop. We don't want the reduction. We don't want the one level.
We wanna come back to court. Please don't, don't rule on it." So the judge says, "Okay,
I'm freezing everything. I'm putting a stay on everything. I'm gonna give this guy a lawyer to try and figure out
what you're gonna do." They fly down a lawyer, Leanne Weber. So she comes and she comes and sees me, and she says, "Listen, I
see that you want to go back and fight this and this but honestly, I don't think you're gonna get
anything more than one level. I talked to the prosecution. They said, they'll give
you," Well, she said, "I can work on trying
to get you two levels, but you don't have much of a prayer, you're gonna get crushed." And I said, "Well then why are you here? If they can crush me so
easy, why don't they do it? Why would they pay you?" Like they pay them like 12 grand or something just to fly down and all your expenses to negotiate for me. Why not crush me? And she's like, "I don't know." I said, "Well, Frank said four levels." And she's like, "Who's Frank?" I go, "Frank's the guy
that wrote all this." And she's like, "Oh, is he an attorney?" And I go, "Is he in here?" And I'm like, "Yeah, he's in here." She's like, "Why is he in here?" And I tell her, he was
taking over the world. And she says, "That's
the strangest thing I've ever heard my entire life." And I said, "I understand. But Frank said," and she's
like, "You're listening to an incompetent, you know?" I'm like, "Yeah, absolutely. And Frank said, four
level, we want four levels. He said, for me to tell
you we want four levels." She goes, "Okay." She leaves, she goes to the US Attorney, we argue two levels. They come back and say, two levels. No, we go back and forth. We start filing motions saying we want to go back, we want a hearing. We wanna bring back all the FBI agents, the Secret Service agents. And she's like, "What? Do you wanna turn this into a circus?" "Exactly what do I wanna do, I'm gonna turn it into the biggest circus, 'cause I've already got one level." They come back one day, she says, "Listen, three levels is the
best you're gonna get." She said, "So I guess you'll be moved back here, we'll go to the hearing." I said, "No, no, no,
I'll take three levels." And she goes, "What are you talking?" She said, "You said four levels. You said Frank wouldn't take, let you take anything less than four." I said, "No, Frank said to tell you four. I was happy with three. I
wanted you to argue for four. I'm good with three. I'm
outta here in like a year." So, and I don't wanna be moved back. I don't wanna have to get on that bus, you know what it's like to be moved? It's horrible. So I said, "I just want the three levels." So then we argue about
the wording for about two, three months, and then they file it. And then I get five years
knocked off my sentence because three levels at this, at the level I was at
now isn't seven years. Every level you get a little less time. So I get five years off. So now I've got 12 years
knocked off my sentence. At this point, I maybe have a year and a half to go. And, you know, that's doable. So I was super, super happy. And I'm gonna tell you something and I'm sorry, bro. But every time I think about it, and I just feel like I have to say it. Like Frank, I'm gonna go insane. But I can, like, I didn't have a fucking
prayer without that guy. And as crazy as he is, and much of a pain in the ass as he was like, I could never repay him, bro. Like, I'm not, I shouldn't be here. I'm supposed to be in prison right now. My out date was 30, was 2030 without that guy. - Where is he now?
- He got himself out. He didn't do all that
time. He got himself out. I don't even know how he did it. They've even threw him back
in prison again for six months and he got himself out again. He's insane. He's incredible. He's insane, but he's incredible. - Is he really that insane? - He's in Orlando. - Is he, I mean, he seems like he seems like a good
lawyer and a good man. - He, look, he's, he's,
he's great. He's great. I mean, there's no doubt in
my mind I would be in prison right now if it wasn't for him. - And he is done this for others? - Walk people right out, 10
years off, five years off, nine years off, 10 years. I mean, it's, I didn't pay and
I didn't pay for one thing. I didn't pay for my stamps.
He paid for everything. - Sounds like the other lawyers don't really believe it's possible and he does. It's interesting. - Well, I think he's willing to, he's willing to badger
them into doing, you know, what they should have done to begin with. I actually wrote a book
about it, which he loved - About him.
- About him and his story. His, it's so over the top
what happened with him. I mean, literally tried
to take over the Congo. I mean, there's a documentary about it. There's, it's called
"Nine Days In The Congo." It's an insane story. That's one of those
stories that's just like, how is this not a movie? - It's not a movie yet?
- No, I don't, I've pitched it several times and it'd be, it would be great. But, so I wrote a synopsis
and I turned that into a book. - What's the name of the book? - Oh, "It's Insanity." - "It's Insanity."
- Yeah. But about it, like a
year and a half later, like, I ended up getting out of prison and I went to the halfway house. - What'd that feel like? Freedom. - I was, oh, this is bad, bro, this is bad. I remember when I was leaving the prison. So, you know, I met some
great guys in prison, which is a weird thing to say, but I've met better, I met
better people in prison than I'd ever met outside
prison at that low. I mean, because it was the first time I actually had friends, you
know, like I really had someone that wanted to hang out
with me just to like, I didn't, I didn't have
anything to offer them. I can't make you any money.
I can't do anything for you. We're just hanging out
because we like to laugh or we have things in common, or we are fascinated by each other, or we just have good time and fun. So when I was leaving, I
remember my mom showed up and my brother showed
up and they picked me up and we were driving off. And I remember looking back at the prison and my brother said, Paul, "I'm glad, I'll bet you're
glad to see that," you know, "To leave that behind you." And I started crying. It's like nobody talked. I was so uncomfortable. It was, I started crying and it wasn't because I
was like, oh, it's over. It was because it was like
survivor's guilt, you know? Like I was leaving all of my friends and I felt so bad that I was leaving them. But I went to the halfway
house and I had four. So when I was getting
out, I remember joking that I had exhausted my Trulincs account, my inmate account. I'd exhausted it. I had nothing. I had like 18 cents. I couldn't even figure
out how to spend it. And they give you a debit
card when you leave. And I said, like, and they charge you every time you swipe, you use the card. Like, I don't even have
enough to spend the 18 cents. You know, it's 'cause
the charge is like $3. So I was like, I was like, "Yeah, yeah." I was like, "I wonder if they're still giving me my debit card." And I'm laughing. Everybody's like, "What
are you going to eat? What are you this, what are that?" And my one buddy looked
at me, he was like, "You can't go to the halfway
house with nothing, bro." And I was like, "No, it's cool." I said, "No, it's cool, you
know?" I said, "No, it's cool." I said, "I want to start at the bottom. I've got that coming. I got working at McDonald's, coming, so I'm gonna work at McDonald's. I don't give a fuck." And he was like, "Well, I think I," he goes, "I think you're
gonna need to buy clothes. I think that's," said, "Oh, it's so." I said, "It's at the Goodwill." They'll give you a bunch of, they give you a bunch of crap
if you don't have anything, if you're indigent. And I said, "I'm indigent." And a couple days before I'm leaving, $400 ends up on my account. And I was like, what the fuck? And it was from a buddy of mine, and I go to him, my buddy Tommy, and I was like, "Tommy," I go, "Did you put $400 on my account?" And he said, "I can't let
you go with nothing, bro." So I get to the halfway
house and I go to Walmart and I buy $300 worth
of clothes at Walmart. I've never been in a Walmart. I go to a super Walmart, it's huge. And I go there and I
buy a bunch of clothes and I buy about 300
bucks worth of clothes. And I still have some of the blue jeans, to this day I still wear
some of the blue jeans. And I stayed in the halfway house. And I called the buddy of mine named Treon, Treon Calta. And he owns a gym. And you know, I grew up
with him, his whole family. Like, they owned a bunch of gyms. And I called him and I said, "Hey man,
I'm in a halfway house." And he was like, "Hey, what's going on?" He said, "Can I do anything for you?" And I was like, "I mean, I need a job." I didn't think he was gonna gimme a job. He goes, "Bro, you're
hired. I'll give you a job." He said, "I can, minimum wage." I said, "That's fine, if
I can stay outta here," you can work like 80 hours a week. And I was like, "If I can
just stay outta here 80 hours and you pay me minimum wage," he goes, "Oh, hell yeah, perfect." So I'm at the gym and I got free reign. So I'm playing on my
computer goofing off all day. And my buddy, Pete, who's still locked up, he's texting me and calling me. And he is like, not texting me. Like he's emailing me
through the CorrLinks system. And he calls me periodically. He's like, "Have you started a website?" 'Cause one of the things I was gonna do when I got out was I was
gonna start a website with all these stories that I'd written. And I was like, "No,
Pete, I don't, I can't, like, I don't have a computer." He's like, "Well, how much is a computer?" I was like, "I don't know,
they're like 300 bucks." I was like, I don't, I said, "I could probably get a
used Apple like MacBook, like a five-year-old MacBook or something, I don't know, for like 3, 4, 300 $50, whatever." And I said, but he was like, "Okay, so that's all you need, 300 bucks." I go, "No, no, no, no." I
said, "It's not 300 bucks, bro. It's 300 bucks plus it's
getting a WordPress website," which I said costs money. Plus it's hiring somebody
to help me figure it out because I don't, I'm inept. I don't know how anything works. So he, okay. And I said, "Plus I need
this, plus I need this. I need a bunch of stuff.
I need $600 for this. I need 300 for this. I need 500 for this. I need $1,000 for this." And he goes, "Okay." He said, "I'm gonna, I'll
get you. Okay, I got it." So he reads off a list, he goes, "I got you," but Pete
doesn't have any money. And I go, "How are you
gonna gimme any money?" He goes, "Every day I walk
across the compound some," he goes, "People stop me
and say, 'how's Cox doing?'" And I say, "Oh, he's okay." And they say, "Does he need anything?" And I say, "No, no, he's good." He said, "I'm gonna start
telling these fuckers yeah. Yeah, he needs something. You wanna do something for
him. Here's what he needs." I ended up getting two laptops sent to me. I got the computer program Final Cut Pro. I had guys in prison cutting me checks so that I could build a website and put all these stories on the website. So I start putting the website and I don't know what I'm doing, man. I mean, I put them on the website slowly. It takes forever. I'm putting pictures up. I'm trying to figure out how, you know, Photoshop works, how
all this stuff, right? The whole time I was, I wanted to start, 'cause everybody, the last one, I was just getting outta prison. Everybody kept telling me like, "Bro, you gotta start a podcast. You gotta start a true crime podcast." And I don't know what a podcast is. The term podcast came
into existence in 2009 when I'd been locked up three years. I'd never been on YouTube.
- Yeah. - So by the time I get out the last year or two guys are coming up
to me giving me magazines. "Like, this is what a
pod you need to read, Look true crime's huge. And you got the thing, guys
are asking me every couple of days, "Cox, you got any stories?" And I'm like, "Yeah, yeah.
Did you read 'Cash And Coke?'" And they're like, "Is that the one where the guys are
robbing the drug dealer?" "Yeah." "Oh no, no. I read that one." "Did you read this one?" "No, no, no, I haven't read that. That's the one with
the guy," and I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah." So I mean, so I'm giving
these little stories and then they'd come
back and give them to me. You know, it's, you don't have, you don't have anything in there, right? So this is guys that would never read in
their life are reading. And I'm writing about the guy in B2, the guy in C1. So I put up the whole thing and they're, well anyway, they're all telling me
do a true crime podcast. true crime podcast, I don't
really know what that is, but by now I'm starting to
listen to them on YouTube, you know, serial and cold case files, you know, that kind of stuff. And I think that's what I want to do. Well, my buddy Treon says,
"There's a guy named Danny Jones that runs a podcast called 'Concrete,' and it's in St. Petersburg and he lives a couple miles from me. I see him all the time." And I went, "Okay." And he said, "You should email him. He's got a guy on there all
the time that does real estate. And I go, I just got outta prison for bank fraud related to real estate. He doesn't wanna interview me." He goes, "Well, you could, maybe he does, maybe you could ask him
about starting a podcast." Okay. So I sent him an email. I remember Danny called me and he said, "Hey, is this Matt Cox?" I was like, "Yeah, this is Matt." He's like, "I got your email. This is Danny Jones." And I was like, okay. And he says, "Yeah, I
got your email, bro." He goes, "This is a good fucking email." I was like, "What?" He goes, "I get a lot of emails, bro." He said, "That is a-"
- It's a good one. - "That's a good one." He said, "That was really good. Like, I mean, that was well written." He's like, "Like I immediately
knew I had to talk to you." And I said, "Oh, okay." I said, 'cause you know, I start off with, I think I started off with,
"Hey, my name's Matt Cox and I'm a conman." - Good opening.
- "I was recently released from federal prison." And so he was like, "Oh yeah,
I mean, who, who says that?" So anyway, he said,
"Well, what's going on?" I said, "Well," and I
tell him what's going on? I wanna start a podcast, blah, blah, blah. And you know, Danny, he
listens to me for 30 minutes to an hour and I've heard
this and this and that. He's like, "Yeah, right." He's, "You know, YouTube's
not really like that. And that's not really how we do it. And you know, I don't know that you're, you're gonna have to get
a production company," and blah, blah, blah. He goes, "But you know what? What you really need to do is to see if people are even
interested in you or your story, or you're able to talk. You should come on my show." You know, shameless.
- Yeah. - Trying to get some content. - Well, I mean, so as I
told you, offline, Danny and "Concrete Podcast" is really good. So people should definitely listen to it. - Yeah.
- But yeah, I mean, it turns out people do
like listening to you. - Turns out.
- I mean, you're good at, telling stories.
- Well, anyway, by the time I got, I
couldn't do Danny's podcast. I was like, "I can't do it,
bro. I'm in the halfway house," so maybe I get outta the halfway house and a couple months go by. Just maybe two months, three months go by. And one day I get a phone call from Danny. He's like, "Bro, you're outta
the halfway house, right?" And I was like, 'cause I
told him I got out in July, it was like October, November. I'm like, "Right." He's like, "Listen, I
had a guest fall through. I got nobody. I need you to come on. I answered all your questions,
you know, I'd call them five, six times, you know, and you said." And I was like, "Ah." I was like, "I'll, fuck it, I'll do it." That video got like a 2 million views. Then I did Patrick Bet-David flew me out. Then I did Soft White
Underbelly, you know, then I did Vlad, then I did all, like, people started, and I'm sorry. And then, you know, it just blew up. And then people started asking me to come and, you know, talk for no
reason for, which was crazy. But you were saying, I'm sorry. - Is your dad still with us? - No, he died when I was in prison. He came to see me. Yeah, he came to see me
like two or three times. - When is the first time he found out that you were doing fraud? - The first time I got in trouble. - When you got the probation?
- Yeah, because I had, you know, I had to kind of explain that, you know, like something's happening. I didn't want him to
hear from anybody else. - So you talked to him directly about it. - Super disappointed.
- Did he ever tell you he loves you after that? - So after I got the 26 years and the government
decided they weren't going to indict anybody, and I really
was like, wow, this is it. Like, you're done. He came to see me, but just by himself. And I remember he, I remember
when he came to see me, I, you know, he was by, he was by himself. Like he never came by himself. So I remember thinking my mom,
something happened to my mom and like, as soon as I walked
in, you know, he walked in. I, what hap, I go, "Where's mom?" And he goes, "Oh no,
she's fine, she's fine." And he sat down with me and he said. and he said, "How are you doing?" I was like, "I'm good." And he was just like, you
know, he was getting sick, he was getting older. So, you know, we talked for a little bit just about the situation. And I was like, "Yeah, I mean," he's like, "Well, what are you gonna do?" And I was like, you know,
"There's nothing I can do. Like everybody, I've
called multiple attorneys. I've talked to people,
there's nothing I can do." And he was like, you know, "We are gonna, you're
gonna figure it out." You know, he goes, he said, "You're clever and you're smart and you're gonna, you're not
gonna do all of that time." And I was like, "I'm done. It's over. I'm gonna get outta here when
I'm 60 if I behave myself. And if I don't, I'll be 64." And he was like, "That's
not gonna happen." And, so he said, I think that
was the first time he, you know, I knew he was proud of me when I was making
money, but he never said it. You know, you got the look
like he was like impressed. But we were sitting there and
he said, I remember he said, 'cause it's the only time I can ever remember him saying
he was proud of me. And I remember he said,
"You're gonna figure this out." He said, "I'm not proud
of where you ended up, but you've done amazing things. You know, I wish you'd use your talents for something different,
but you've done things that I could have never done. And you've led an amazing, adventurous life and I'm proud of you." And that, you know.
- I wish he could see you now. - My mom, I know my mom saw me. My mom's funny, 'cause
my mom came to see me. My mom's a gangster. My mom came to see me every
two weeks for 13 years. She missed about a month and
a half when she had a stroke and ended up in a wheelchair. And then she came in the wheelchair and she would make my brother bring her. My brother and sister would be like, "Mom, are you sure you want to go? Like, you know, it's so hard to, it's such a long drive
and you get so tired." "Well, I'll sleep in the car." "I know, but you know, then you, we have to wait in that, the, you know, in that the waiting
area, you know, forever. And it takes forever." "Well, I'm in the
wheelchair, so I'm fine." "Well, I know, but it's such a pain to get in and out and then in and out." And she goes like, she goes, "I'm going to see my son
and you're taking me." - I love it.
- She, yeah, so I. So she, yeah, she was,
she was something else. And I always say, you know, like if I had to say. You know, I don't think about all the things I did to get out. Like I know, you know, there's
all these guys that are, you know, like, you know, "Oh,
I wouldn't have done that. I'd have been a standup guy and I'd have been," well,
good for fucking you, bro. I wanted to get out. I wanted out. And the icing on the
cake of me getting out and I would've cut every
motherfucker's head in that prison off. I was able to get out just in time to spend the last year and a half of my mother's life with her. I saw her two or three times a week, took her to dinner once a week, was able to walk, go on walks
with her in her wheelchair. I was sitting right next to her when she had her final stroke. to her when she had her final stroke. I held her hand when she took her last breath. I don't give a fuck. I don't give a. - Do you regret? 'Cause you just looked back? Would you do it? Would you do any part
of your life different? - Oh, I'd scrap all this. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'd scrap all this to be, you know, you always hear these guys
say, "I wouldn't change it because it made me the man I am today." The man I am today is a
fucking 54-year-old scumbag, multiple felons, starting
my life over broke, you know, living off of scraps, you know, trying to make YouTube work. Like, you know, I've got, you know, two dead parents. I'm divorced, I have a son
that doesn't talk to me. I have a son that doesn't
talk to me for good reason, not because of a misunderstanding, because he understands. Like you can't even argue with him. He's got a powerful argument. Like, I don't wanna be a
part of this guy's life. He's a scumbag. He stole money. He went on the run. He abandoned me when I was,
you know, three years old. I don't want anything to do with him. Like, I get it. Like I, you know, and I tried
to do all the right things, you know, I wrote the
letters, I drew him pictures. I've tried to call and it's not happening. Like, I would do anything to go back and just be that regular middle class guy with the two kids and the
wife working a regular job. You know, like, that's a good life. You know, those are, that's a good person. And you know, I just made one arrogant
decision after another, after another until it snowballed and I couldn't take it back. And then I did everything I could. And if I wasn't the calculating, backstabbing scumbag
motherfucker that I can be, I'd be in prison right now. Sorry. You know? So, yeah. Yeah. I would much rather be a CPA right now. I would much rather, you
know, should have stuck with being an insurance
adjuster or something. I mean, you know, I
never should have whited that 30 day late out. Never. It was a mistake. - That was your first mistake. - That was a huge mistake. - You think your son will forgive you? - No. Unfortunately, according to my ex-wife and my sister and everybody that he is a part of their lives. You know, and I've seen him, you know, my mother's funeral, I saw him, you know, I've seen him
at several functions. You look across and he
looks right through me. I think that he's a, everybody
says, "He's just like you. He's just like you." And everybody says, I'm just like my dad. I've never smoked a cigarette.
I've never drank alcohol. Not a drop. Never done any drugs because my dad was an alcoholic and my dad smoked two packs a day and everything in our
house reeked of nicotine. And I've never smoked. And
my dad was a pill head. He was always on some kind
of prescription medication. He was draw, you know,
and I didn't want to, I don't want to, I didn't
wanna be that person. And like one day I drew a line in the sand and I wouldn't do it. And I think he's drawn a line in the sand and he's decided, you know, this is the hill I'm gonna die on. And I'm not gonna back off it. And the thing is, my ex-wife tells him, "This, he's a good person. You should be in his life." His father, 'cause he was
adopted when I was in prison. They adopted him. Nick is
his, you know, his dad. Nick has told him. Nick came to see me when I was in prison. You know, Nick has told him like, "Hey, you, this is a mistake. You're making a mistake." Nick, everybody that knows me knows him. And he said, he has said no. So I fully believe it's no,
I mean, I hope it's not. - Well, I hope he forgives you. I think there's a lot of good in you, despite you calling yourself a scumbag over and over in this podcast. - That keeps bothering you.
You mentioned that earlier. - What advice would you
give to young people given that you've lived quite
a non-standard life? What advice would you give them how to live a life they can be proud of? - I mean, I don't know if I'm in a position to, that anybody would listen
to me, but I 'cause to me, and I don't have any advice that I don't think a
father would give you. And it's like, work hard, be appreciative. I mean, things are so good out here. I hear people complain all the time. And I think a huge part of just being happy is being appreciative. Like, I didn't appreciate anything. When I had, this is so cliche, but when I had all the money
in the world, I was miserable. But when I got out with
nothing, I was happier in prison with nothing than I was with two or $3 million prior to prison and driving, dating a chick I never
should have been dating, driving a sports car, vacationing all over the world, miserable. I'm crying, driving away from prison because I already miss my friends. Now you could have never told
me that was gonna happen. - Turns out money, in fact
does not buy happiness. - No, and I know, and it,
it is such a cliche, right? But it's so true. - Crying, driving away from prison. Yeah. - You know what? I met my wife in the halfway house, so she had just gotten outta prison. She was in the halfway house with me. She just did five years
for like a meth conspiracy. I never would've met her
if I didn't go to prison. You know?
- And now your date night is hunting alligators together. - Yeah, that was like a month or so ago. - This is Florida, folks. This what, this is what, this is what badass people do in Florida. - My wife-
- Hog hunting. - Is a former, she used to, so she was an MP in the military. She was, she did, she hunted, she ran a hog hunting tour guide service for six years.
- Right. Yeah. - Went to prison for five years, got out, and then, you know, now
she's a marine mechanic. And yeah, our date night,
the other night was, we went in the middle of the night, went to Lake Okeechobee and went hog, went to alligator hunting. - Yeah, and if I may say
so, she's quite beautiful. - Thank you. And I did, I did nice. She didn't wanna date me
in the halfway house too. I kept saying, "I feel
like you're sweet on me." She's like, "I'm not, I'm not. I make fun of guys like
you. You're a city boy." I'm like, "I don't know. I feel like- - Well, you wore her down. - That's what exactly what I did. - Yeah. It's that
charisma. It always works. Well, Matt, thank you for being so honest. Thank you for being who you are. I do think there's a lot of good in you. And thank you for telling your story and the story of others who have, who've made mistakes in their life. Thank you for talking today. - I appreciate you having me on. - That was a really short conversation. Thanks for listening to this
conversation with Matthew Cox. To support this podcast, please check out our
sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with
some words from Mario Puzo, author of "The Godfather," "Behind every successful
fortune there's a crime." Thank you for listening and
hope to see you next time.