Ben Askren: Wrestling and MMA | Lex Fridman Podcast #242
the following is a conversation with ben askren wrestler mma fighter and a brilliant opinionated and fun personality in the world of martial arts and yes he occasionally likes to talk a little trash given his wild online antics and his boxing match with jake paul some people may forget just how dominant he was in the sport of wrestling and in mma for most of his career in wrestling he is a two-time ncaa division one national champion and four-time finalist in mixed martial arts he went undefeated for 10 years with a record of 19-0 before losing to jorge mas vidal with the flying knee that caught everyone by surprise he's also into cryptocurrency disc golf and is the co-host of flow wrestling radio live this is a lex friedman podcast to support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now here's my conversation with ben askren before we talk about your incredible wrestling career your mma career let me ask you i have to ask you what did you think about the jake paul versus tyron woodley fight uh well i thought i mean i'm obviously unbiased i thought tyrone won i had five rounds of three again this maybe this is my bias in the way i was seeing it i thought he was more effective with the striking and he was more aggressive no jake had more volume um but that was the only like thing i would give him and i guess a lot of people just didn't see it that way they thought he landed more significant punches i just didn't think anyone really did any damage it was a split decision split decision yeah were you surprised um well there's a thing so the thing i said when i went in to fight him and said we don't really maybe he's good maybe he's not we have no we really have no idea to this point you know and so i knew tyrone was a lot better boxing than i was and so i thought okay tyron's i think it's a good likelihood that tyron beats him up um but there's a chance that jake's kind of good at this and i think that's kind of what played out is he's kind of good at it even if you saw the way i saw it he still was impressive in his showing and he's obviously put a lot of time into it so he's he's not bad we'll say that much you know but isn't it surprising to you that like uh elite level athlete combat athlete lost to somebody who just takes it really seriously but is nevertheless not elite level um hmm but but i think boxing is a really specific rule set uh so we'll speak about tyra not myself tyra had good striking but obviously it was his first boxing match ever um and within mixed martial arts you have the the fear of the takedown and the fear of the kick and fear of other things to go along with the punching and so if you look at tyron throughout his mma crew a lot of times what set up his punches were like level change fakes at a takedown they dropped boom and then something comes over the top right so there's many more elements to worry about mixed martial arts whereas boxing there's only one it was his first fight yes i thought everyone was gonna win i thought this was gonna happen but like i said i mean it's pretty evident that jake's he's not bad at boxing he's pretty solid you know he gets in there and works hard at it i guess out of ten times how many times do you think jake wins i guess turn he gets tyron they fight again and again and again like iterative yeah so i mean i i part of the thing is okay so jake's corner said you need a knockout going into the eighth round right so i think they thought maybe they're trying to motivate him but i i don't see that way because if they were actually thought that he was winning why would they encourage him to take a dumb risk when tyron has cleared his knockout power right it's a really stupid coaching philosophy if that's what you're thinking so you obviously are thinking hey this is actually in the balance it's competitive um and i feel like tyron thought maybe he was winning and didn't have the urgency necessary and so i think he there's a chance he turns it up a lot hmm man i wouldn't want to watch him again before i i so yeah i have this problem with my personality here's my personality lex um i have an issue with not being able to give really exact answers so i hate giving you an answer that like i don't feel like is 100 calculated yeah so um i would like to see them go once more because i would like to see hey can tire if because if tyron can turn up the pace and nj can't handle it then i think it's an eight one or nine two right um if it goes the exact same way and maybe tyrone was a close split decision i'm saying oh well it's probably close every single time we're probably gonna get a five to five type of thing you know so it's like i feel like out of one match it's not totally indicative of what the future is gonna look like i feel like tyrone would get a knockout and then you would still be in the same place like not not knowing not know what to predict okay so your fight with jake paul looking back you have had a little bit of time now uh how would you analyze that fight uh well i mean the fight specifically i got cracked with an overhand right so i mean it kind of sucks um i would say you know this is why everyone's like i i don't i really don't care um and everyone's like wow it turns your reputation it's like well i wanted to do it i had an enjoyable time training and in the build up obviously i wasn't skillful enough to to get to win but if i even even despite the fact that i know it's going to have what happened if someone asked me to do it again i probably would have done it again you know and so the way i was thinking about when i was deciding whether to do it or not because i got the offer it's like okay is this money it can change my life yeah it could right it's not gonna double my net worth but it's gonna add significantly make my life easier number two is like when i was in high school we used to do boxing matches for free just because we thought it was fun when we didn't have something going on friday night me and my buddies would get together and we had some boxing goals in that basement and we'd punch each other in the head so it's like for something i think is enjoyable nothing to pay me a whole bunch of money yeah sure i'll do it would you do you think if you got the rematch if you did the rematch would you what are the odds you win okay well it's not probably not very good i think he's pretty good actually and i'm not very good now at a low point for me because uh so when i started training for that i was like 215 pounds which is the heaviest ever bed i came off my hip surgery i literally like when i said yes like i'll do it like i had literally started working out like the week before for the first time in my you know since the surgery because i wasn't able to do anything so could i could i perform better yeah but now after watching him box tyler i'm like if you ask me ben can you be tyron prob probably not i don't think i can be tyron so awesome crack and boxing yeah so my chances of beating him you know and watching that card it's like damn like kind of fun to box someone who i know sucks so i know it can beat that that's what would be fun you know because like they're training their preparation was fun but then obviously i got my butt kicked that fuck that sucked you know can i swear on this podcast yeah of course okay well i was gonna drop an fba but i wasn't quite sure i think that sucked as i swear no you could you could drop all all of the f-bombs you want so preparation was do you think you were more prepared for that fight or the the jordan barrels exhibition i mean like how did you approach it mentally you know um well the burroughs thing i i obviously it's okay so when i retired the first time in 2017 burroughs was the only current like we'll say really elite level wrestler that i'd never trained with um i was really good friends with nebraska's head assistant coach still am and i said hey i just want i'm going to pay my own way i want to train with jordan's i want to see what it feels like you know i want to get in there and mix it up i mix it up with david taylor and kyle dake i mean there's just some adult wrestling that i love and so i flew myself down there in january of 2018 and i spent four days training with jordan it was a really good time it gave me some great insight into how he thinks and you know what a great champion is what was the like training with him like what can you get some insights yeah of course like what the like how hard is the the live training is it more drilling is it technical like how does his it seems like his style is very different than yours so how does that match up in the room in terms of like what you learn from each other that kind of thing we went full life for one i think it was like 12 or 15 minutes ago where we just go wrestle um we did a bunch of simulated live but obviously he he had so i was a senior in college when he was a freshman in nebraska and so we our teams had dueled each other he was obviously a lot smaller at that point in time um but he had followed my career and so when i went in there it was like hey i know you're really good at this position what about this position what are you trying to do how exactly does it work and then let's wrestle there you know and then hey what about this position and so you know we would spend 30 to 40 minutes talking about that position on the ground or it was like uh one was the chest strap it wasn't for headlock one was uh i don't know it's called what we call the lightning dump but it's a the lightning dome yeah my buddy's name was lightning luke smith in high school and he was the first person i saw do it so usually when i see someone do something then i name that move after them got it um i know right great name it's good so uh yeah but so what i said with that is like okay he was still trying to be the best in the world i was just trying to go work out jordan bros because i enjoy wrestling yeah um is like someone who at that point what he has five world titles at that four or five at that point a lot and so usually high school kids is like hey this is the guy who's the best in the world who's bringing someone in and saying how do i do this how do i do that what about this what about that and so the level of inquisit inquisition that's a hard word inquisitiveness he has is really impressive and then it's obvious why he got to the level he did because he's figuring out all these little situations and that's honestly one of the biggest things i think wrestlers a lot of wrestlers fail to do as they get older even when they get to early college age they say this is my style this is what i do i'm going to lift and work out hard and i'm and i'm not gonna anything in my game you know whereas you've seen many progressions in jordan bros games he just made his 10th world team and you yeah and you know if you have a really keen eye you've been able to watch him change you know i've been watching him since 2007 2007. he's changed so much and obviously still maintained a world-class level almost the entire time when you say change like what changed because he's he's got that double leg yeah but you're saying double anymore was that he like hit his double leg for the first time because alex dier he hit him in years yeah so that's like when people think about jordan bros they think about the double leg because in his early years fire he had a great doubling right and even so in those years i would say the the biggest thing with jordan bros double leg was it his level of explosiveness it was his level of persistence he would shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot and it would a lot of times would be from fun creative angles and out of scrambles i'll say he's on you you know and just he was just super persistent with it and i think that was probably the key and then you saw you know when he came out to won the first world championship in 2011 it was kind of that type of mentality and then shortly after then obviously everyone was starting to lower their stance getting lower and he developed a really good like mantis go behind series where he would go one way the other way then he started developing a really good like low single ankle pick type thing you know and then his his hand fighting got really tremendous like 15 16 17 his hand fighting was really good and now i just commented at the 21 trials like a few of the defensive sequences he got into was like holy shit like just not from an athletic team but from a technical standpoint the things he were doing was just tremendous so i've seen him as someone like who's continued to reinvent themselves over the course of the last 10 12 years especially in the as a junior and senior in college you're exceptionally dominant yeah if you were to face him at the peak both of your peaks of ncaa wrestling could you uh could you beat them and if you can beat them well of course you can beat them yeah uh how do you solve the jordan boroughs well uh so for a folk style wrestling stand folk style yeah so you know he he had some competitive matches his junior senior year he had a 2-1 win over uh or maybe it's 3-2 over michael chandler who is my teammate who's fighting uc now he had a two-in win over tyler caldwell um so i think you can glean some insight into that you know he got written he got so mad about this up on the podcast so during chrono we had to make up all kinds of bullshit to talk about yeah and we were doing like the last 10 years best 165s and i said kyle dake would ride him for over a minute oh wow he got so mad you want to come on the podcast the next day so hopefully he doesn't listen to this he's like fuck you man you know um but you know what when was this this is during corona corona last year he got mad we were talking about we were before the trials yeah correct yeah so um you know michael channel wrote him for two minutes plus and that was his junior year not his senior year sure right but it's close um so i think there's some things there i think the interesting thing would be if i would have stuck around right so i chose to go into mixed martial arts after 2008 i would have been 74 and he would have been 74 so we would have to wrestle and then i think that the freestyle jordan burroughs puzzle is a lot more difficult to solve than the folk style jordan burroughs puzzle and i think i don't think he would i think he would acknowledge that he's much better freestyle than he was at folk style oh you know although he was very good he's better this is like raw speed explosiveness um presents a problem to you well so he was never i mean he didn't ex really excel on the mat in kind of either style in freestyle he has got some good lace transitions but in folks that like his whole like in his entire college career think he has like 10 pins which is almost nothing you know so he was gaining no value off the top position he was good enough on most people to get off bottom without it being an issue but it wasn't like oh my gosh this is an area where we have to be careful there's a lot of things here you know it's just he wasn't gaining value there whereas in freestyle he i don't say never but the amount of times he gets turned is incredibly rare very very rare um and he does have a lace transition so he gets a lot of points there so and obviously freestyle is it can be geared way more in the neutral position right we're only doing takedowns so yeah were you surprised that he lost to dake in the trials to kyle dick oh kyle's so so he's so good right i mean i think i think his performance in the olympics was uh was his last name which was shocking too i mean we never seen it happen to kyle dake you know he's been a guy who's competed with jordan burroughs forever and obviously he was on the losing side for a while and now he's on the winning side um but i think a lot of people thought it was a coin flip and i think actually kyle digg made it feel like it's not a coin flip it feel it now to me it feels like kyle digg is going to win that match significantly more times than he isn't is what it feels like yeah i forgot which trials it was was it four years ago where kyle dake threw him like he he no you saw inklings of like yeah oh wow there might be a eventually a changing of the guard yeah so 13 kyle came out and he had the one throw but then he lost one of the matches decisively um and then he was hurt in 14 and in 16 kyle dick actually went up 86 kilograms so in actually in 16 at the trials we had um so j kerber was number one seed he was former as guy russell i was a former world silver medalist so you had uh david taylor who had not made a team yet who is now world champion olympic champion you had kyle dake in the bracket who was a two-time world champion now and you had jaden cox in the bracket who had not made any teams yet but is now what a four-time world medals two-time world champion so and then obviously jayden came out on top of that won his first olympic medal big bronze medal um so kyle didn't wrestle jordan in 16 and jorda and kyle's contention the whole time and they argued about this so i actually did a little bit of backstabbing well it was not it's not acceptable and both of them were just one i didn't tell any of them okay okay so jordan got mad so we thought we talked about this fake mastering chrono right we yeah we had to make we had to make up something to talk about yes there's obviously no matches so we talked about this fake match and do you stand behind that statement by the way let's here's here's what i said kyle kyle takes four times state champion yes i said you got to pick a you got to pick a winner i said kyle dick wins 2-1 on a minute and six ride time which i mean is literally we're talking yeah as close as it gets as close as it gets for kyle jake who's a four-time ncaa champion i'm sorry sorry we're talking over jordan burroughs over jordan borrows inner folks in a folk style match the hypothetical college or not hypothetically now or in college in college both of them at their peaks at 165 pounds so completely hypothetical and so jordan called in he was all pissed at me for picking kyle dick he wants to come on the next day and argue his point yeah so i said f that that's that's dumb we need to pick a winner way to do something hypothetical so that i called caldegra i said kyle jordan's gonna come on and argue his case in the morning if he's gonna do that why don't you come in and argue your case so no one else knew kyle was coming on the block yeah so they both show up and they went at it but one of the contentions kyle had for years and there's still this rule if you win a world level medal the following year you sit out until the very end of the american trials and they do they do a best two or three so every time previously that kyle had wrestled jordan he had to come through a tournament on saturday yeah okay probably three matches and then on sunday he would wrestle jordan invest two out of three right so his contention was i'm only wrestling jordan at a disadvantage because i have to compete on saturday and then competing on which it's a fair argument it really is but i also see usa wrestling's point is like if someone wins a world medal we are going to reward them because we want that person on the team again so it's crazy though that you're like kyle jake had to wrestle because he's not wrestling bums in that box yeah and and then yeah i don't know i don't know how wrestlers do it because yeah you have to go to war like three matches and then face jordan borrows yeah especially a few of those years with you know daycad uh the name andrew howe but it was a really competitive match as david taylor had really competitive match with him isaiah martinez even got in there dearinger so he had some really competitive matches before he ever got to uh jordan burroughs so i never answered your initial question was uh how did i feel so the jordan burroughs match i was not in wrestling shape at all meaning wrestling's heavily dependent especially neutral positions heavily dependent on timing and other things i was wrestling very very minimally because i was i started fighting again so like my shit athletic shape was great but it was mainly for fighting i wasn't wrestling so um i think they were actually trying to do burroughs dig at the beat the streets it's a big it's the biggest fundraiser in wrestling every single year in new york in new york city they usually raise like a million dollars they started all these programs in new york city to get which that i really wonder what they're doing the money now because they probably can't have the kids wrestling because new york is crazy anyway i think new york figures out a way what to do with the money hence michael mouse complaining that they're corrupt and all well go but it goes to the beat the streets organization who then starts the clubs in new york so i don't know what to do anyway so i was called like i don't know two two weeks before the vet and said hey you know someone saw us to wrestle jordan burroughs it fell out would you wrestle him i said yeah sure why not you know and it's like well listen i i've i trained with them for four days the year before i had a pretty good idea how the match was going to go it wasn't going to go so well for me but it's like okay you're missing a main event i can bring because of where i'm at right now in my life i can bring a lot of attention to wrestling i can help you guys raise a bunch of money for beat the streets my goal is i think i thought i could get one takedown or turn on him was kind of my goal for the match i didn't get there uh it was kind of hard he went hard yeah that asshole can give me a point yeah that i said this is bullshit jordan i told him through the match like this is bullshit you're fucking going too hard right now yeah i'm not a wrestler i'm not a wrestler i'm a fighter i'm coming in here so yeah so i i had a really good idea i mean we wrestled together i think in it he'll probably get mad because i think in the live go we did like the 12 or 15 minutes i think i actually scored a takedown in that i believe maybe or maybe it was a turn he'll probably say no i didn't but whatever um yeah so i i knew what was gonna happen i i knew what the outcome was going to be i knew i could hope i could stay competitive and maybe you know lose like 10-2 or something like yeah well let's walk back because i think uh i originally brought it up in terms of how prepared were you against uh jake paul versus uh jordan barros yeah so did you prepare for jake cardio wise yeah i worked hard yes yeah i did but it was i told you i started training for my i mean once once i had my hip surgery yeah they said uh you know for the first six weeks you can't even walk and it was hard for me to listen to him because by week four and a half five i was feeling pretty good i want to give her my crutches but i'm like you know what this is for the rest of my life and if you get the so if you get the real hip replacement there's no wrestling there's no nothing right so that's the next step so okay i'm going to take this here so i do my crutches in six weeks the next six weeks it's still like really low weight-bearing can't yes do anything you know so then i get done with the three months which is like january and i'm like okay i should start working out so i started riding a bike a little bit and then okay i'm now i'm fat i'm fucking fat i'm gonna get in better shape because i don't do anything so i'm actually start working out and uh and then that happened right so i'm like okay well now i got three months and it gives me a good reason to get back in shape and um you know i knew i wasn't going to be a full-time boxer so it's like how do i put a boxing camp together so i found you know i had my ultimate mike rhodes he came up and kind of lived with me ish kind of thing for three months uh i found a couple of this guy k9 out of michigan he came over for three weeks he was great i went to freddie roach for a week so i kind of like you know trying to get as many good as ideas as i could and my thought was like okay well if this dude sucks i can just be tough and you know block a few punches get him tired and then beat him up if he's good that's probably not much of my do about in the next three months because i'm i'm i was never good at boxing in the first place all of my stand up in mixed martial arts was predicated on how do i get through the two or three punches that are going to come at me in the time i need to get a hold of them you know it's all you only have to make two or three of them miss and then boom you're on top of them at least for me um that was all my striking was predicated on it wasn't about hey i'm gonna do damage on the feet in order to make something else happen it was like how do i clear this barrier get a hold of you and if you i actually did the math one time i think i got a takedown if you include the knockout round against miles vidal i got to take down every round except two so it was like it was like 53 out of 55 rounds in mma i gotta take down wow somewhere somewhere in there okay so you're hunting the takedown once you once right away once you get get uh your hands on them you get to take down yeah okay but the incredible thing about you i i just uh recently talked spent a couple days with jimmy pedro and he talked about his guys and just champions in general hating to lose more than they love winning and the way you talked about losing you lost very few times in your career like later you you were dominating both wrestling and mma but the way you took these losses against people that are i don't know below elite level it's fair uh i was gonna get pissy but enough but it's completely fair i thought he was a bum too no that's not what i meant i'm in trouble it's okay no it's good no no um no no but like what can you explain the psychology behind that like the what is is there uh a system behind this is there philosophy behind this well i i wasn't very good in the beginning and i think i think that's where all starts from so i didn't start getting good until the age of like 13. i started at five i probably started competing more at age 10 11. i didn't really get good until 13 it's still at 13 i'm i'm i'm great i'm getting better right i'm pretty good um so actually i've actually i have writing this book on sports psych but this it's i got well i got someone right for me kind of thing uh because i've had this philosophy for years that there's there has to be this balance between two things right so on the one hand in this category on the one hand you have hating to lose a great champion has to hate to lose like you said right but on this other hand you have to have someone who seeks out challenges right because if you don't have that you're never gonna reach your full potential either and so you have to balance these two balls at the same time right and so like for me i always and this is maybe because i wasn't good but i was always like let me go find the best people to wrestle all the time let me go find i would like literally uh like seven days great when i was starting to get better it was like end decision internet well there was no one was using the internet it was like a wrestling magazine like hey dad there's a tournament here i think that other kids can be there can you take me two hours across the state today please you would wrestle like in competition against them in competition yeah yeah in competition hey i heard there's this tournament here's the magazine says this tournament hey dad will you take me over there tomorrow you you weren't trying to win you were trying to get the experience i was trying to wrestle the best guys maybe i win maybe i lose there's no when you used to do a competition there's no guarantee of a win or a loss you're just doing competition right so i wanted to go i wanted to challenge myself against the best guys of which i thought maybe i could come out on top right so like eighth grade year i won way way you know i probably lost a handful of times in the state of well state wisconsin was probably really really minimal the amount of times i lost you know but it was just about getting the challenge and it's like some some kids and not kids in my club because i'll push them very hard on this are scared of challenging themselves they like being the big fish in this small pond they're not willing to go say i want to go get that guy and i want to get that guy and i want to get that guy and so that's like so i think that's part of it for me is like i always just love the challenge i enjoyed competing thoroughly right and i understood from a young age because it wasn't very good losing's a part of it you're not always going to win and that was kind of it it's like hey sometimes you know and for my mma career i never planned it to go that way but yeah i didn't lose for nine years and like that's that's pretty rare i didn't plan for that to happen that was just what happened okay but you also didn't lose like the second part of your college career my 87 i lost i won my last 87 matches yeah so that didn't come along with the hatred of losing you just i don't like losing i still don't like it yeah yeah okay but you're you don't uh you don't seem to you you seem to kind of shrug it off a little bit okay so like but specifically with these two instances that you bring up with the mosfet all right it feels definitely so okay all right let's go let's go deep let's go all right so the mosfet one it feels different because um let's for people don't know okay uh moz vidal loss was your first loss first last city in mma yes yeah yeah i think yeah and i mean it was a dramatic loss and there was this kind of build up as you or potentially one of the greats of all time coming into this fight and so there's pressure all of that so the no i mean i i was thoroughly enjoying it i don't i didn't feel the pressure so the mazda fight is he got one fucking move on me it's not he beat me and if we do that again i think i win at that point in my life for sure i think i win way way way more times than i lose he he knew that too that's why he didn't what he didn't want something sounded about agreement that's why i had to taunt him and why he got so mad because i had to continue to taunt him in order to get him to sign right um so that one hurt because uh and some people don't know my materials go through it fast i did three fights in like uh smaller leagues i got signed by bellator i was undefeated for three and a half years i was 9-0 when i got done with that in 2012 2013 um i at that point in my head i was just gonna transition to the ufc because that's where you go i was ranked like six in the world i hadn't really had a competitive match at the end of the bellator thing and dana white for a reason still unknown to me we still haven't had this conversation i wish i could ask i should ask him some time chose to refuse me any entry in dfc he just said i went to his office and he literally said we're not interested we're not going to make you an offer did you did you mention something to about him about the ufc that was a year before that that was the year before that that that might play a role in it i think so uh yes what happened the year before that was uh i called him a liar which but listen i'm right on this one because he said you can't test for drugs because i'm i'm all natural which you can tell by my physique um and i was always put off by the fact that so many people cheated and i i was very vocal about that and so he had made some statement like oh there's no way you could test i said bullshit you you very specifically i said usada does it for all other sports worldwide you can do it and then it's funny because i hired you sat a couple years later yeah so i think he took some offense to that but that was like a year and almost a year and a half i think somewhere later um it's not like he holds a grudge or anything yeah so i so i i literally go to vegas um it's a long story you can read about it other places i i so i got released from about it's not like this is negotiation i got released from my bellator contract i said i'm out of here i'm going i'm going to go to the uc i go to vegas and then i was told hey there's no offer for you tough shit you know so then i ended up signing with one championship i spent what three and a half years there i won the belt in my second fight and retained the title the entire time and then i just again dominating people yeah i didn't have a competitive fight and so um i retired 18-0 never never again and for someone who loves a challenge never getting to really challenge myself was incredibly frustrating and i left the door open but i said if i ever get the chance to prove them this world i'd love to come back so somehow a year later i get traded trades never happened and this is the one and only trade ever i i've been retired for a year i got traded i get to come back i fight robbie lawler the first fight i win and then essentially they're saying okay if you fight uh you know if you beat george you're gonna get the title shit against marty and um it's like this this is what i've been working for the entire i've been trying to prove the best part of the world for the last 10 years and i've not been afforded this opportunity um so when i lost to george that was hard because i it was is something that i had waited for for a really really long time it was something that i you know i thought i could compete for and i never got the opportunity to do that one was hard um at the same time from like just the competitive logistics like he got me with one move it wasn't like he beat my ass for 15 minutes and i got beat a bunch of different ways so that was like fuck like if i get it again i could have done it but i'm not i'm not they're not gonna let me have it again it's not like wrestling where you could go the next year or the next week or whatever you know you lose the big tens you go to nationals two weeks later does that loss change you in any way your psychology i don't i don't think so it's the first loss i mean had i had i had a longer mma career post that yeah there definitely would have been a lot of time spent getting better at the end the entry point to the takedown right which i already spent time there um i don't i and i hate making excuses but yeah the the hip the hinging of my hip what i couldn't do was preventing me from doing some things and it's why if you look at the fight i'm like bent over as they go for the double leg yeah so what happened for people who don't know you went in for a double leg and he went he did a flying knee and then and and the weight caught you well specifically the way he did that knee was kind of different than the way anyone had thrown flying knees before most people go more just from a stand straight vertical whereas he took a few like running steps and went more you know the trajectory of the angle was different um so i think that's kind of probably why it caught you know i think a lot of things in combat well probably everything but i focus specifically on compass happen subconsciously like our brain is reading what's coming at us and and a lot of times it's stuff we've seen before so we can judge how to move correctly misread because it's something you haven't seen head for had not seen him come at that specific angle yeah so that also was really hard with the burrows one i told you i knew i was going to lose so it was like whatever you know i'm taking this because i want to put the sport of wrestling out there in a big way i want to help them raise a lot of money we sold at madison square garden hoo theater and we raised a whole bunch of money so my goals were accomplished jake paul fight i took it because they paid me a bunch of money and i thought it was gonna be fun did i have any illusion i was a great boxer no illusions whatsoever would i have preferred to win absolutely but you know like i told everyone whether i win or lose on saturday night i'm gonna be back coaching wrestling on monday because that's what i enjoy doing and i was back coaching wrestling on monday and once a month these middle school kids give me a little bit shit about it and that's it but where were you in terms of your shape and how you felt in the mazda doll fight would you say you're on the i mean it's a difficult question to ask of of a world-class athlete but like were you past peak oh yeah yeah that's i don't know i don't know why guys like to lie about that i mean the peak for me was really evidently in my late 20s um and maybe they are all fueled by extra supplements i i don't know but for me that was evident but you get this so you get this crosshair where um you're if you're smart like you know like i mentioned john bros was you're still gaining wisdom you're gaining strategy gaining a lot of things right and so while your physicality may go down your overall skill level still may be rising especially in mma because people usually start later because they're gaining wisdom strategy all the maybe more tools in their toolbox right they're getting all these things so their actual competitive peak despite their athletic peak going down might still be a few years past that right because these things are crossing um no so i thought i was i was great obviously the hip was an issue um it's funny because so that i knew i had a lot of pain here and i knew it was because of this it was like okay whenever i'm done i'll just get it taken care of whatever uh but i every time i train i have pain kind of like all up my back and the day after the surgery i woke up and there was no pain on the right side of my surgery on the left side there's no pain in the right side of my back that's fucking weird like every every morning i wake up there's a lot of pain there you know um i'm like okay i'm on pain pills maybe it'll maybe it'll come back tomorrow and this that's never never been back since so it's weird because it was like this i thought this was affecting this but it was affecting all the way across my whole back so you know if i get to get a new hip honestly if i if i i don't know it's going to change the competitive outcome whatsoever if i had known how good the hip replacement was going to be i would have done it the second i retired from one championship in november of 2017 i would have my hip surgery scheduled for december 1. just from a lifestyle standpoint i could only sleep in one position there's a lot of things i couldn't do i was in a lot of pain um so i would have done that a lot earlier but no from my athletic point i was ready just chit goes wrong sometimes i don't know how to ask this but you know joe rogan me had a had a sense about you similar to like uh fedor that you are potentially one of the greatest ever yeah does it hurt that you're not in the discussion now of being in the top 10 yeah of all time i didn't prove it i don't deserve it i mean but i didn't i didn't prove it i mean and so it's like uh had i had i somehow gotten to convince dana white we go and convince him in 2013 to make me an offer and i didn't even need a good offer i needed any offer had i gotten the offer then maybe the outcome's different right but given i would never expect anyone to think of me that way i didn't prove it i know i know what i was and i'm good with that and yeah other people never got to see that do you think well you don't know you can't know fully right do you think if you uh went to the ufc at that time instead of one championship i think it would have a lot of success yeah i mean there's obviously certain guys there's a lot of guys i've trained with that i had a lot of really good results against and um walter wait at that time tyron was a champion for a long time there so i was around tyler was a champion anthony was a champion at lightweight i was you know the same gym as him and we had a lot of people coming through yeah did you face turn would i have fought him i don't think so i mean so he was still the champion when i came into the dfc and we said no we're not going to fight all right hey so he can't change history right so once something happens you got to accept for what it is and move forward and and obviously hope you can continue to keep accomplishing great things which for me obviously my athletic career is over so now it's going to be through my wrestling academies and you know who knows what else i could get into oh you might do exhibition matches and all that kind of stuff right statue wrestling and stuff no uh i don't think so so here's my thing with the wrestling matches is like just for fun if you said hey ben just for fun yeah would you love to go wrestle someone yeah i would i would right i love wrestling i get in there i lo you know i love like so one of my guys has gotten to be pretty good he's in college he got him keegan tool he just won a junior world title this year and so when when i'm doing private lessons i have such thing about the development of the athletes sometimes i can wrestle hard but most of the time it's like i'm just gonna help them with whatever they need help with and it's still wrestling and it's fun but it's helping them you know for like for king jose this summer and he's trained for the general title so to be able to shake hands sometimes and say like i'm gonna try to kick your ass she try to kick my ass you know like just to go like yeah it's a good feeling it's so much fun and i don't get to do that very much so if you said ben would you love do some matches and the answer is yeah the problem unfortunately for me and maybe you could talk me off a ledge here is like because of where i've gotten to my career if i choose to do wrestling match it it's going to people are going to be really excited about it's going to blow up and it's like i just want to wrestle just to wrestle i'd rather just like go in a room where no one can watch and just wrestle and just enjoy it well you could also wrestle so there's different kinds of wrestling there's wrestling when there's an event and like you know there's a build up and then announcement yeah and you can also do like uh khabib style like in the room there's cameras and you're kind of going it's like the weeb does that no in uh marcel did that he whipped my ass a few times yeah exactly i mean i've seen could be some videos okay it's not like set up it's just people going hard and then it's more fun yeah you know and it's it's also more like presenting the beauty of the sport yeah you know for sure and like and there's no winning or losing really in that context yeah like you're just you're always joking around a little bit even when you're going super hard so i feel like especially in the modern day with with the internet that's a compelling way to do so i've thought about it this is the one thing i've thought about doing because i told you about my buddy was the the content thing it's called rockfin i thought about doing you know the old really famous gracie challenge yeah okay so i thought about doing the aspiring challenge do i hear my rule set yeah let's go i'm not sure i'm gonna do this people are gonna show up to you like in wisconsin i have to select you i'll start with a thousand bucks right right okay 30 minutes you pin me or i pin you that's it no points no nothing we just wrestle camera that's it right it's camera in the room maybe maybe maybe there's a referee because we don't want to be contention over the pen so one pin just one pin 30 minutes 30 minutes okay if i pin you you don't get shit you go home right every person i pin it goes up by a thousand dollars two thousand three thousand four thousand five thousand and so on if you make it the distance and i don't pin you and you don't pin me i'll pay for your travel and give you 500 bucks right this the consolation prize for showing up if you pin me you get whatever the jackpot is wait who's adding to the jackpot i am it's my it's my money but then what's the incentive to keep winning for you because it's jackpots well because i'm so i would put the content somewhere people would watch it oh you're gonna make money yeah so you would make money that way it's not exponentially growing right it's just going up by like yeah i really think there's probably only a couple people that could pin me so i would just not choose those people or wait till i get a really large audience and people get really excited in that case i'm making a lot of money so what do you think how many matches would go with you like call dick shows up i don't think he could hit me yeah but being like jordan jordan bros could beat me but he can't pin me he was never a pinner yeah he ain't gonna pin me there's only a few people who have the skill level to do so right it takes a lot because so pinning was one of my specialties i had the fourth most of all time and i won the penny award the last two years um so and then even on points and just pin them this is actually one of the issues i have with jiu jitsu and the point system and the eddie bravo thing i actually think eddie bravo things kind of people get so mad at me sorry too i think it's bullshit and you want me to tell you why it's bullshit yeah so like if jordan brewer's whoops my ass and the score is 16 to two but he can't pin me then i get to go to overtime and get a cradle on him i'm probably gonna pin him so i'm better than jordan burroughs nah they didn't right he just whipped my ass you know what i'm saying like if we can go the whole because they do submission only so if jordan bros beats me up for was it eight minutes ten minutes i don't know what's the length of an eddie bravo match yeah i don't know that's something like that yeah yeah so we go tell me john browser today he's gonna outscore me significantly he he will not pin me i promise you that okay so now we go we go to the overtime strong wars but yeah he won't jordan bros is not gonna he's gonna beat me i will give you that call day won't pin you either no okay okay they'll both beat me on points very badly now david taylor he might he might pin me because he's a very good pinner also um they'll beat me very badly they will not pin me um but now we get to overtime and we get to pick like uh right so in a bravo you get a rear naked choke or an arm bar okay give me a cradle i'll probably pin them okay a good cradle you can say cradle or maybe give them they're not probably not going to pin me right maybe maybe there's a chance but probably not because this is not their special day so for people who don't know the eddie uh eddie bravo thing is uh when it goes into overtime you get a dominance position on a person and you get to yeah basically put them in a cradle this is the wrestling equivalent yeah but you uh take their back maybe yeah like a wrestling arm bar yeah and i don't think that's very fair because if someone whoops your ass they whip your ass and then you know and so i think the reason why jujitsu people accept that rule set is that i don't think i think they know this but would admit it i don't think they're their point scoring system ad include adding adequately rewards what people value so like in wrestling we value takedowns because it gets closer to the pin and the most valuable scoring is a near fault near to the pin because that's the ultimate goal to sport whereas in jiu jitsu for example like if i were to get a takedown uh so like if i went to gordon ryan and he just didn't pull guard i would probably get the takedown now if somehow he didn't submit me which he probably would right but say he got got close to like 12 submissions but somehow i slipped out of all of them now i win 2-0 like that's ridiculous like he should very clearly win because he almost submitted you know what i'm saying like there and i and i realized the difficulty i realized the difficulty in rewarding near submissions but that is the most valuable thing is getting close to finishing the match and in most competitions they don't actually reward that but okay so this isn't about the sport this is about the ben askren challenge that we're talking about okay what why 30 minutes why not unlimited time hmm why do i go until whenever well because then it's just a cardio thing because at some point um then someone would just have to fall over dead right there's no more skill level involved it's just who can stand up the longest you honestly don't think 30 minutes is a cardio thing too how do you think that's actually going to look kyle day going against you for 30 minutes so it's going to be kind of boring um for the most part what position are you going to be because you well you can but you can't you just can't have a gigantic amount of action for 30 minutes so i i relate to because some of my kids when when teaching them wrestling they're like well but i can't do that for seven minutes and i'm like well you know like say if i had you do uh hang cleans at a relatively heavy weight as hard as you could you're not gonna last seven minutes you're gonna your pace will slow down right so my thing is like well your pace doesn't have to step here because i'm wrestling you're competing at someone so if you're here at 100 and you go to 80 but they go to 70 that's great and then you go to 60 but they go to 40. this is even better right because the gap is growing so we don't necessarily if we get tired that's fine if they get more tired that's better so i think most people would know that so they would kind of slow it down but yeah i think it's third a third i mean i've wrestled 30 minute goes i've wrestled six months i've wrestled hour long goes um you're not gonna get so tired you're gonna fall over in that time period but at some point if it's unlimited someone will get so tired that or dehydrated that they're just gonna freaking fall over yeah but you think what about making it exciting and dynamic you think the other person is always going to be going for the pin and thereby make a dynamic well if they're working that hard then they might exhaust themselves right right and and obviously then if you're if you're being that dynamic then you're adding risk to yourself too because you are you know doing that well i love this this is a great idea well i figured i'd get i rack up like 20 pins against bums you know or not not as great people in the beginning and then i would start bringing in better people because they would be enticed by you know twenty thousand dollars the possibility to win and not not much fanfare just a camera and just chemical that's it in my wrestling room yeah yeah like the gracie challenge yes yeah may and so then maybe you have like um you know for most people you have someone edit like the 90 seconds of the most fun things that happen and then you can watch the entire 30 minutes if you want to yeah i mean i think most people if they're not really really elite um i'm probably gonna pin them if they're not really elite so yeah but i don't know i i that's something i've been thinking about this just been like fun for me to think about um and obviously it plays in my skill sets because my cardio is good and my opinion is good also so yeah so like you said you weren't very good in your early days until 13 14. what was the switch you became you started to dominate people in your college career you dominated yeah and uh obviously you stopped losing at some point yeah so uh well i would say so even when i didn't lose in collegiate competition i i would go in the summers and try to make the world team so i would lose some not a lot right minimally um okay so when i'm five i start playing all sports like i i know you moved to america at what age 13 okay so fi so at least i don't know what it was for you but in america and my age you usually play like a sport every season right so that's what i did in the beginning um i had minimal success in wrestling i was kind of chunky and then i'm in fifth grade i don't i and i can't i can't tell you i i want to be better and i told my parents that it is funny because now i look at other 11 year olds and very few of them are this mature and i actually think emotional maturity is kind of one of the key indicators of how long term successful someone's going to be in age 11 i said i don't want to play baseball and i like baseball but i don't want to play this because i want to wrestle more so i'll get better wrestling so age 11 i quit baseball so i could wrestle in a club for march april and may because that was that was all that existed at that point in time you couldn't wrestle in june july or any of those other months um what was that desire to get better what is that so it's not about i don't know where it came from okay i just i want to get better i want to get back i want to be good at this i want to be really good at this so when you're looking at kids now as a coach you're looking for that somebody who says you know what i kind of suck i want to get better and and i want to try to also inspire that i mean honestly i think i think as a coach that's probably my my biggest job is to get a kid and get them to believe i can do this because if i can do this what can i i can do that i can do that too right and there's so many kids who unfortunately have like shitty parents or bad teachers that tell them you suck you can't be anything right so i think my biggest goal as a coach is to get someone to believe they can do it so actually some of the ones that believe they can do it they're the most fun but they're not the ones who need it the most right the ones who think they can are the ones that need me the most yeah because they need someone to let's go um so i don't i don't know what inspired me i'm not sure so age at age 11 5th grade i quit i started so then i started having more success you know what i'm like say placing at the state tournament um in high school uh so you you write fifth so sixth grade i placed it like the state local usa tournament you know so i'm like having more success um seventh grade was the first year i won the youth state tournament um so i'm getting better eighth grade i actually feel like i got pretty good but like when i went to the national tournaments i was still having really minimal success my freshman year i decided to quit football same reason it's like well i need to put more time into this my parents we got my dad luckily got a mat in my basement so you know there's no you so we have a year-round club and our impetus was that we didn't have this opportunity to go to a club year-round so we had a map in my basement had to go find hey you want to you want to come wrestle yeah to find partners for myself what'd you do did you drill did you uh live wrestle what'd you do in the basement so actually i think you'll enjoy this i think the start of my scrambling was was kind of based around that so i got kind of i think it's probably my freshman sophomore i'm kind of the years are a little fuzzy right now um but probably my freshman sophomore junior year i found two kids who were really consistent who would come out like you would come out he would come out tuesday and this dude come out on a wednesday right and they would come every week and they were really consistent partners for me to have in the summer but they weren't nearly as good as me they were way worse so it's like okay how do i how do i make this kind of like fun and compelling for them to come back if i swipe their ass they're not gonna come back right you know so it's like i would let them get as close as they could this as i thought they could do a takedown before not getting it and then tried to like escape or get out so obviously if i let them get really close sometimes they get it you know so they're they're enjoying it i don't know if they ever knew i was doing this right i have no idea um and that was kind of like the start because i had to figure my way out of bad positions because i had to try to make it entertaining for them where they still got something out of it and they want to come back the next week and i also got something out of it yeah i love this yeah because that relationship is so important with that like that i've had a few drilling partners training partners that were really important to my life and i i always wondered why it's difficult why it's so difficult to find them yeah like i if anyone's listening to this i'm looking for a judo person in the austin area actually getting the reps with people is hard even in jiu jitsu that it's just like people want to do the fun stuff they don't want to really put in the work yeah and it takes a certain kind of personality and then you also have to make it fun for the other person just like you said if there's a skill mismatch but also if you have an interest mismatch in terms of the the amount of drilling you want to do all that kind of stuff you have to figure out ways to make it fun yeah it's tricky so you did so yeah i think i did that and no one told me so i get some i get frustrated because now we have you know just in my academy we probably have 50 60 high school kids only that are year round they're year round you know maybe they're not consistent in the summer or whatever but they're there so when they don't have a great partner they start whining it's like you little bitches like you know i i some days i get really mad about it because it's like i had no partners i had to find freaking two partners come twice a week you guys there's still 22 people in the room i'm sorry there's not the perfect partner for you but like go work out that dude yeah you know and get yeah so what was the switch the change was or is this gradual or okay yeah so uh let's do so ninth grade i quit football because i want to get really serious um what position football i was actually a nose tackle and i was but at that point so okay so i was also the other thing i kind of left over here i was really fat growing up yeah uh in a sixth grade i also decided okay i'm really fat and if i want to be competitive wrestling i shouldn't be fat because weight matters i went from 130 pounds to 100 pounds in sixth grade um so by the time i was a freshman i was 119. so i still wasn't as heavy that was one in sixth grade so i was pretty small too but i was also slow unfortunately so uh they put me a nose tackle i you know i like the competitiveness so i was decent at it um so that's what you wrestled 119 my freshman year yeah mm-hmm so yeah so then i still i started having a lot of success state wise but not nationally it's my national success didn't come to like my junior year in high school um but yeah i was like grinding and getting better the whole time and then senior year i started having a lot of success nationally and i got recruited and then but then even my freshman year of college i uh this is where i love competing i would go every weekend because i knew if you if you take the emotions out of competition all it is is seeing your failures acknowledging them and then figuring out what you need to work on right if we take all the emotion out of it that's what it is so i wrestled 50 matches as a redshirt freshman which is incredibly rare i had 10 losses so it's not like and like to not not so great guys you know so like my my skill level still at that point was not that great and then the next year i came out and made the ncaa finals so my my i made a gigantic jump in that redshirt year to the to to the real freshman year so it's a few questions yeah where did the funk style wrestling the the creative stuff get developed or which stage so i so i think like looking retroactively there's no there's no intention to start when i was in high school with those kids but i think that's kind of like what was happening right so what i would really say is i i had one influential coach my rhetoric of college named mike iron man um great guy but then the second thing was it was just out of necessity i had this burning desire to be the best and when i was getting my ass kicked every day in the room because you know retirement was there we had all-american 157 we had all-american 150 184 so i wasn't having a ton of success and very quickly i realized from like a more traditional athletic perspective strength and speed i couldn't keep up with anyone i was way worse so it's like okay fuck how do i how do i do this you know i want to do this how do i do this there's got to be a way you know so mike ironman showed me a couple things but then it was just like this creative expansion for the next you know through say three to five years um and then even now it's like i don't know there's something and maybe you feel this way about judo or there's something that's like fun about the way the body moves and works and and and exploring something new and thinking about hey wrestling's been happening at a relatively high level for we'll say 80 to 90 years in america um and there's still new things being developed and so when you see something you're like oh damn like that's great or like jason knoll if i have to win dicks i'm like how did i not think of that shit like why did i think that's so easy i should i should have thought of that you know so there's this like obsession with the sport of wrestling and you know positions where um i actually think sometimes think i wouldn't have smartphones because i may have been distracted by my smartphone maybe i wouldn't have been selling so obsessed but maybe but you know some days i had couldn't finish the single leg on this specific person or or they maybe they were finishing on me you know they go home and i just fucking obsessed about that one position like okay how do what what am i missing here and and not just accepting like that whatever the coach says is the answer but like what am i missing what ways can my body move that no one's told me it can move yet where can my arms go right where can i do all these things and so i would just obsess about these things and then you know sometimes you come in the next day you say oh well maybe this you know and maybe it works maybe it doesn't maybe it works twice and it doesn't work the next time and so you kind of like have this creative process and it's like there's a lot of things that are on the cutting room floor that never made it to the the light because you thought they'd be good and they failed and they sucked and then you know to the point where like my senior year um i got to this point where the the people then they were just figures figures would wrestle in my head about positions i was thinking about i wouldn't tell them what to do they would just they would go in my head and then like something oh fuck wait that's it that that's it that just happened that's the move and then i go try to practice and sure enough boom that's the move that's exactly what you have alpha zero playing learning chess you have uh oh no it's called self plays uh you have uh what did the figures have um like no faces they were just like did they have a human form or is it just like stick figures essentially oh there was not like yeah it was not like humans it was more like stick fig it wouldn't stick figures exactly like they were uh so they had some volume yeah it was like it was like a gray person and they had you know three dimensions essentially because i had to see how the things moved and yeah uh i mean this is exactly what uh open ai and uh demand at google or uh i don't know if you've seen but there's something called reinforcement learning in artificial intelligence where you have like they've done it for like sumo wrestling you have you have like you have these two stick figures that don't even know how to get up at first and they figure out how to stand on their two feet and then they figure out how to push the other person off of the the pedestal wait so but what about like uh when you look at the the boston dynamics sometimes they have trouble with like jumping and balancing and other stuff so are they are they doing that same program or no no no no this different the the everything boston dynamics is doing is hard-coded so it's not it's not learning the all the sophisticated movements and strategies like high-level strategies and movement that's all something that boston dynamics does not do and if it does it like the parkour stuff that's all hard-coded in oh the people like project and think like these robots have like discovered like how to move in sophisticated ways they haven't well that's what when you and john were talking about the the grappling robot yeah i mean the one thing i was i was obsessing about in my head is that with the chest right if a chess piece moves right uh the horse can move like an l right it can only move like an l it doesn't matter if it moves at two meters per second or seven meters per second it can only it can only move there right whereas like a single leg i can shoot a single leg with many different velocities i can shoot at different angles i can shoot with different amounts of force right i can shoot with my my head up versus my head i mean right all these things are going to matter if we're talking about a human being defending the single leg all of those things are going to matter and and that's where human beings are who wrestle are calculating those things subconsciously they're obviously not consciously calculating in their head oh the the forces coming at me at this so i need to do that right they're just doing it but see the the thing is so you would absolutely if you're doing a robot that you're wrestling you're going to have to constrain the speed at which it moves and the power that it's able to deliver so that presumably that'll be the limitations so then it'll be just the same exact way as a human but then but it's good to even so if we go human max force right jordan bros double max force right that's the highest as highest we get then we go down from there um even even with even within that it's like sometimes i can choose single leg with a maximum force of i don't know we'll just say we'll say 20. this is a number right i don't know shoot at 20 because i feel sometimes i shoot at 15. sometimes you shoot at 12 right because you you feel something in your opponent that makes you do it differently so they would have to learn how and then you know all these different things and sometimes maybe i clamp a little harder so the the robot would have to learn all these different incoming inputs to the system and then create this reaction oh no no 100 so this would be all continuous like yeah so unlike chess it would not it's just chess is discreet there's it's uh one then you move it's it's a very specific set of moves now here you would those are all variables you control and they're continuous variables so the speed the force there's actuators so there's all these joints right yeah you can move i mean it's just an optimization problem it's kind of fast it's fascinating so i've been fascinated thinking about it since you guys talked about it with i it was a long time ago i listened to it probably three three to four weeks going up and kind of been like obsessing about it ever since but yeah it just changes when um so unlike boxing for example or striking it you know once you grab a hold of somebody it change you're now one body right so yeah it's very complicated it's not just shooting a a double leg without like maybe doing like like faking a double leg and then shooting the double leg that's very doable with robotics but then like doing a clinch and from there doing like a russian tie like that that's uh i think that's way harder than people realize in terms of how many things are involved like the force of the grip the leverage you're providing with all the different parts of the shoulder and the arm and the torso the twist how much of your weight are you allocating like leaning on the other person yeah like taking weight off of one of your legs and the other leg all of that i think that's the really interesting thing about humans is we're able to do all of this calculation subconsciously yeah subconsciously yeah and that's what i've been thinking about since we it's like how many things even these high school athletes who are like getting medium good are subconsciously thinking about all the time or not even not even thinking about sorry reacting to um but then even like for me i'm you know i'm a few orders of meg do better than somebody's kid that player and so when i when i go like super hard it's like i can feel their weight moving the wrong direction and so for me to off balance them or trip them or whatever it's kind of easy sometimes you know because they're not feeling it the right way right or their timing's just a little bit off or the way they're grabbing the hip maybe they should be up a little higher right these really small things um yeah i think that's all easy to take advantage of for a robot it's just there's so many things the the big problem is ethically i don't know how many people are willing to train with a robot because you're gonna get hurt well couldn't you make a robot change the robot or no yes but then it's expensive so because they're gonna put the padding on that thing i know but but then it's not you know it it's then uh you're not capturing the full why can't you put like some rubber coating on them right you know something for that effect you could i mean that you could yeah you could i mean you're talking about robots that are these are humanoid robots so we're talking about 500 000 million robots so you would have to be motivated spend a lot of money to spend a lot of money because you have to have them wrestle for like a lot to get better you have to get better yeah and then the the open question is how long does it take to get good enough to beat a human uh i don't i don't think i don't think we understand i don't know i don't think you understand how hard wrestling is yeah like is it a really hard problem like what's harder chest or wrestling by far not even close that's yeah that's the sense so because there's an infinite amount of moves right uh and possibilities so once i shoot the single leg now you have x amount of choices once you make your choice now i have a choice x amount of choices no i now you have x amount choice on the defense and we can just keep going back and forth right and this number becomes yeah but the same happens with chess correct but then in wrestling you have to make these movements in very instantaneously right because i should sing like i'm not going to wait and say what's your defense yeah right you mean instantaneously and then also again based on the force and the vectors and and the angles you have to calculate that and adjust so really you know if you're saying well i can shoot a single like it's not like moving it's not one move right it's if you want to talk about different forces and stuff it could be hundreds or thousands of different moves based on how hard i shoot it the angle the direction all of those things yeah but wait a minute so robots can do this kind of stuff really fast you would i people probably know the physiology of this but it's the the reaction speed for a human is maybe 100 milliseconds something like that i don't know from sensation to to like from the the signal traveling up your two brain and down i don't know what that number is but uh robots certainly could do it way faster it you would actually have to like constrain the speed well so the robot's already killing the chess people right so yeah theoretically they could eventually beat wrestlers but you asked what was hard wrestling or chess yeah and i think wrestling is because of the time component in it and then the and and the physicality of you know is it this force or that force you know because if if i'm gonna say say we're in a seat belt side by side right a wrestling seatbelt nothing too based on the pressure you're giving me i might do a bunch of different things right and so like to an untrained eye they might both look like the same thing from you to a trained feel it's like well in one case it's really evident i should go this way in other cases evident i should go that way so the other thing to consider just like with chess the ai systems so human versus human play a certain way together they actually haven't considered a really large number of strategies that ai systems discover so one possibility with a robot they'll discover certain ties and certain takedowns what i'm saying that like will dominate no matter what the human does you think that so you think there's that so this i mean this was somewhat the wrestling's so fun is there's even after 80 to 90 years there's this continuous evolution yeah so you can do some like low single type thing like john smith type of situation well like a downbot go behind is something that has really i would say really in the last five-ish years has really been evolved what's the goal behind downbot go behind so when you're sh well they just head inside or head outside matters but there's one for both you shoot at me essentially i take my leg boom and then so that was kind of in existence when i was in college right you down block them and you stop but usually you hit on this side of their head right and now immediately as you shoot i attack that shoulder and then i start hitting a go behind on you right and so like that in its current incarnation it absolutely wasn't when i was in college i would say it probably became popular five to seven years ago so yeah there's these big things that are happening and now now i really want a robot because i want to be ahead of the game i want to know exactly what i'm missing i mean one interesting thing you have with alpha zero that plays chess is um it sacrifices pieces much more than humans do so give you a piece and not only does it give you a piece it will wait a bunch of moves before it makes you pay so because it knows that that's better for the long term long term so like humans rarely sacrifice without getting the piece back like two or three moves after uh alpha zero can wait like five moves so so basically you'll have you potentially with wrestling you might have a a robot that like puts itself in bad positions but in a certain kind of way then that will actually lure the opponent in to trap exactly what my style's based on you basically narrow one one thing to do is you narrow the set of choices you put yourself in a bad position but and there's a set of choices for them because they're not used to it yeah they're not used to it and and then you you drag them into uh into your yeah so but there's also the problem is there's mechanical issues like it's actually just difficult to build robots that uh are able to sense because we have sensation throughout our body yeah it's just difficult to build that kind of robot it's expensive you start talking about multi multi-million dollars and then people start asking you questions why did you invest all this money duh hello it could be a better investment okay uh so i mentioned john smith yeah he is if people don't know one of the great wrestlers wrestling coaches ever he's also creative like you he spoke really highly of you what do you think about that guy did you guys ever work together not really uh so i so you know what when i was a senior and i had the people wrestling in my head uh i was lucky enough to be doing um i was pretty much graduated so i did an independent study with the sports i call i was potentially going to uh grad school for sports psych well i actually did nine credits and then i decided i didn't want to do any more i continued learning on my own um but i had an independent study with uh the guy who's head of usa track and field support psych so i guess so the other here was the class was i got to go sit down and talk with him for an hour and he was like fascinated by me so he didn't really make me do homework it was like the greatest three credits ever we just talked it was i learned so much it was so awesome um but so i started so one time it came up that i had these robot or people wrestling in my head you know and he said well who else do you think i said but john smith happened so i went and got john smith's number and called him and say you've ever had these people wrestling in your head and he said yeah but shouldn't stop coaching they went away same thing happened to me they started coaching they went away so if i really force myself now and i'm like you know i see something in practice and it's really high level because high school wrestling i don't want to make you guys feel bad but it's like it's a little bit lower level right so if like keegan for example who won the journey if he's struggling with the problem or ask me a question and i can force myself to like see the bodies moving and think about it again you know kind of like i was in the early age but it won't just it won't just flow there anymore so he said it went away and for me it went away also by the way if you can pause on on the on on the bodies in your head yeah uh what like how are they generating new ideas are they just kind of i don't know you tell me so it's just they're just like scrambling in your head it would be specifically based on a problem i was struggling with or a specific position you know kind of it goes in for a single and then and then go from there yeah so like i'm sitting in geography class and you know i don't have to work that hard because it's easy right and yeah i'm just sitting there like kind of acting like i'm looking at the board and these guys are wrestling and i'm watching them wrestle and yeah sometimes they come up with a really good solution is there somebody you uh looked up to style wise matt gable john smith yeah all these like like legends status people try gable or cable um john smith after the fact so the problem with wrestling in my era was you couldn't watch it there was no there's no access right it wasn't it wasn't really available even if you want to say go find a bunch of john smith they're kind of hard to find right there's a couple of them on youtube but i've obviously seen all of those but in in my era there was there really wasn't any of it so it was hard to be a fan of something and that's what wrestling wrestling has his the fans are going like this because now you know you flip on the flow app and you can watch uh you know something that's happening in europe right we can do this easily so we can be a fan of people um so now i'm more a fan of wrestling than i was then because there just was no access so now i can watch someone i like and say oh shit like that guy's wrestling oh boom i put my phone on i watched them wrestle you know that type of thing you know on a quick rant it's really frustrating that you can't watch the olympics oh my god it's so frustrating i i've been i i'm i'm i think i'm going to go to war go to nbc's headquarters i'll go with you you got you got a soldier here i was talking to jimmy uh jimmy pedro he was surprised by this too most matches you can't see even you talk about like uh uh comeback uh gable steals and yeah you can't see the full match you get like a crappy highlight so the two the two biggest things in rightlook and really the three the ncaa championships on espn yeah the olympic trials are on nbc and the olympics are nbc and these things these these companies are so big they don't have a department dedicated to selling their rights to that footage right so the the rights to wrestling footage which no one really cares all that much about except a niche are the exact same as track and field or and or basketball number x so yes all of this stuff is completely inaccessible to us the the nca's the olympic trials in the olympics you can't go watch old film on it it sucks yeah older current film yeah uh so you can't even watch the game match the gable students no they did a you know they do something that annoys the fuck out of me what okay they they they they do like a three or two minute highlight so it's like they capture the most important thing but like it's all about the build up yeah yeah it's like that very beginning when you step on the mat and the nerves and you walk out and like that i mean i don't know uh you miss then then when the the triumph happens or the heartbreak happens it has that much more power yeah if you want to go to war with nbc or espn i'm i'm happy to join i think this is bullshit well i mean uh does the ioc or the ioc is selling the for the olympics is the one that's making well so nbc broadcast so they obviously have the live rights you would think they would have recorded if the i mean they're the ones recording it you'd think they keep the rights when you think no no i they're like getting a license of it they're getting exclusive like license but like the you know for example uh i've had this i talked to travis stevens the g dog player and there's a really sort of famous match it's a heartbreak in his career from uh 2012 olympics where he goes against the german ole bischoff whatever it's a 20-minute match to go to war and that's not available anywhere but it's uploaded on youtube and set to private the reason i know this is because on the ioc channel so they've uploaded all of these matches they haven't been put up so actually so my olympic match the the one i won got put public and so i don't know if it was private it got put up on youtube uh i was ordered to it the week of my jake paul fight it was so dumb i'm like why this is every 13 years later this is bullshit like this should have been up so i mean okay so what about olympic trials footage that has to be the usoc then or nbc uh so i know like okay so i don't flow right cause i work for them i know if flow buys your event or whatever right they buy the rights generally in the contract they'll have rights to both live stream it and then use that footage at any point moving forward so those matches live on flow's website that's why i would be surprised that if nbc didn't have something similar flow does a pretty good job of providing like uh a place where you can watch all these matches nbc does not that's not it yeah and and and also there's an argument with flo as well but certainly with olympics there's a difference between what flow does and what the olympics represent what do you mean by that like it feels like the olympics which is what the charter says should be as accessible as possible yes like true like you should really lower the barrier for entry for the olympics you know that's what the charter says but those people in the ioc those these are the worst people ever yeah they're very bad well they're not they're not bad they just lost touch of the dream they once had when they joined the ioc well i would argue i would argue all the way back that these are rich fat cats who like i get so mad about the ncaa which finally now got rid of this term bullshit term amateurism it's like well there's some holy grail where you can't make money to be an amateur athlete but the people who own the ioc are the people who own the institutions college institutions are making loads of money off of you that's crap so you competed like you said at the 2008 olympics did you believe you can win gold yeah absolutely so the your mental game was on point yeah i was ready so what what went wrong that wasn't good enough that was what i said yeah yeah i mean so at that point in time um i it was my first year of international competition so when i came out in 2007 it was my first time making 74 kilograms which is pretty small for me um i had some failures but then quickly i turned that around and i was having success uh in america i was beating everyone i don't see easy but yeah just you know i've i was doing really well um i went international one time and i i there was one match i got cheated on the russians they're cheaters she was ukraine not russia i lost one real match where i actually lost um and it was to dennis sargus who would go on to win three world titles he was behind the t of that year and it was competitive you know so i knew okay i'm like i'm going with the best guys in the world uh i beat a bunch of other guys who you know were were good and had past decent results so like i knew i was like right there unfortunately i ran this guy ivan fundora and in i had someone do scouting reports for him actually my high school coach you're know coaches for our academy john messen rank and founder was the worst stylistic matchup i got him um and i lost him second round so i just i wasn't good enough i you know i had i decided to keep wrestling i probably would have gotten better but at that point diamonds wasn't in the cards so in your division was like you said city of vice has the tf um that guest special he's very special so that would be my other guy that you asked earlier who i enjoyed watching and that was a guy again it was kind of after the fact because it was hard to access footage but he was a lot of fun to watch what do you think made him great uh a lot of people talk to about him as potentially one of the great greatest ever absolutely i mean six and so he won six and three six worlds nine uh six worlds three olympics nine total which there's only one or two people above that um so again it was it was hard to watch any live footage of him but from what i've seen his his feel is different he was just ahead of his time and the feel and the touch he had for certain moves and different things because obviously physically he's kind of unimposing he's um you know taller and skinnier which is you know it it can work wrestling but it is by less represented um yeah he was special so good do you uh take any inspiration from let's talk about dagestan in general what do you what do you think makes those wrestlers great yeah it's fascinating um have you read the book the talent code yeah it's great and that kind of talks about these talent hot spots all around the world so now obviously with our wrestling academies we try to take some lessons from that and apply it i got to assume they didn't cover dagestan in that book specifically but i gotta assume a lot of the same principles uh that are in that book apply to dagestan and wrestling right they did south korea and um women's golf did curacao and baseball right they picked a lot of these other places that were really elite i think maybe moscow and women's tennis also um so i think all these things that make any group great organization is probably the same thing that's happening there well the hardship i mean what for is there something specific about wrestling that can create so many great champions is it from that area so obviously they're all they all love it like it's a big deal that wrestling is specifically is a big deal there you know they do sambo also obviously um so that's part of his a lot of the kids are doing it the obviously a rough tumble tough tough life a lot of fights and then i think that also that a lot of them it is a way out right there the the elite level athletes in that part of the world from my understanding are really well compensated compared to what the average person makes and they're treated really well so people see it as a way out whereas like and then honestly if america is getting better but in 2008 the reason i went to mma was because i didn't want to be poor that my whole life yeah you know what i'm saying it sucks it's like well i don't want to make 20 000 for the next 48 years so i'm going to go do something else if i could have made even and i need to be rich right if i could have a hundred thousand dollars or seventy thousand dollars wrestling i probably probably kept wrestling um so i think i think it's those factors i and obviously now they have a really like uh a bunch of really good people in one area so it's probably and it's been going on for a long time so there's probably been a bunch of like adults and coaches that are coming back and helping that progress so yeah a lot of those things that happen so i'm definitely going to travel there as i talk to him because i can speak russian it makes it makes it very um makes me uniquely qualified to uh my brother can speak a little bit russian your brother can yeah okay like a little bit like uh squares and no no no like he would oh man don't don't make me oversell i think he would be able to have a conversation with you i think okay okay probably not like you what's the uh what's the reason he knows right he i don't know why he got obsessed with languages and so his college degree is actually um what do they call inner discs where you have three minors who had a minor in russian a minor in a spanish and maybe japanese i'm messing up it's definitely russian and spanish are for sure i don't know what the third one is no but yeah it's it's really fascinating but the the uh the emphasis on technique the lighter drilling like they don't really go super hard yeah and i only spent a couple so i was there i was in vladikov cause in 2008 that was where the world cup was we had to train there for like two days afterwards so um i didn't get to dig deep did dig deep into what was going on or anything but yeah i mean i think sparring has a sparring is very beneficial for wrestling um not like sparring mma is we fight right sparring in wrestling is so i always just describe it to be really simple uh if we're drilling it's relatively zero percent resistance if we're going as hard as we can that's 100 percent there's all this gray area in the middle that's sparring right and so you know if you have a good relationship like you know especially college me and my brother we could just go and we we know where each other's at we don't have to talk about it right but like in my wrestling club i'll say okay hey i want you guys to go 50 in this position or i want the high crotch guy i want him to shoot and this is for him so i want him to go 70 and defensive guy wants you to go 40. so you're not you're not supposed to be trying to win here you're going to go later i want you give it give them some looks you know um so i think i think it has really taken hold in america i think it's really beneficial for success and i think that's i mean america is doing better than we've ever done historically well that's 70 and 40 that's like an art form to find that right place because uh like what the the really good people i've trained with they go much closer to 100 speed wise or like but without like forcing things yeah you would when you're going it's some weird combination of things that like if you truly earn a technique then you're given that technique yeah yeah but like if you don't you don't yeah and then it becomes a much less injury prone it becomes somehow more fun more dynamic you don't get stuck in positions it's just a lot of movement yeah the one thing so you you and john talked about the uh you know like different ways to learn and get better and so i think john obviously innovated within the sport of jiu jitsu um and so for us one and maybe there's just a differentiator for us i think about it so excited to interrupt you have this academy you sent me this plan that you have like a really well thought through plan for how to develop a good wrestler so but so i think it's um so for me there's four categories right there's the teaching which is like you don't know shit i'm you're coming in and i'm showing you the move and you're literally going out there and you're trying to me that's not even drilling that's like teaching like you're trying to learn something so obviously in someone's earlier periods they're spending a lot of time in that phase because they literally don't even know how to move their bodies the right way once you learn the skill then there's the drilling because you need to you absolutely have to get those reps to become really proficient in that movement and then the sparring and then the live right and so like i think obviously by the time you get to the kind of end point right but further on the time you spent teaching is so i don't wanna say in i'm sorry in the learn learning teaching phase is not insignificant but so much smaller because to someone who's really good who have coached for 10 years i don't have to give this big long drawn-out explanation i just have to say hey move move your hand a little differently right or just do this yeah right we don't spend any time there so i think that's like something that consumes for the younger kids say five through 12 or 13 we're consuming a massive amount of time there on that teaching learning phase and then as we get older that time wanes a lot but that makes total sense right yeah it's funny because when you look at like jiu jitsu schools they spend a lot of time in the teaching learning and then the live it feels like there's not enough drilling i like how you draw a distinction there because it feels it feels like you're always starting from scratch like people have like very crappy short-term memory like they they're not uh like the way teaching is done is you show a technique from scratch and i just it seems disjoint it is for sure especially if you have a class that's been with you for a while yeah you don't have to start from scratch you can say hey let's focus on this one little thing here yeah or let's after we do this let's do that you know you kind of put start putting it all together and then with jiu jitsu the thing that i i really struggled with was was a couple things it was um and this is not speaking for all the gyms my personal experience through the sport and i actually found my so when i unretired i found someone really great that i loved and i really wish it was mark layman i don't know if you know him at all i wish i would have found him earlier because he was just tremendous um but number one there's no drilling so it's like in wrestling i can boil down to i can probably name you the best six moves right so we need as younger people single leg right same leg's gonna be the most proficient takedown it always has been i don't know probably always will be unless there figures out something different um the robot the robot figures i'm different we're going to shoot the last single legs why because we're getting because everyone's going to do that right we're going to shoot a lot of single eggs so just like say an armbar or some type of sweep right why can't we go get 50 reps there hey we i mean by the time i've been in your jiu jitsu school for two years i better know a fucking arm bar i better know what so don't don't spend 10 minutes teaching me just tell me to go hit 50 reps and then if when i'm hitting my reps if there's something i'm doing wrong then just say hey ben move your leg a little bit that way or raise your hips up a little more right like correct as you're drilling so you're getting all these reps at it so you're becoming more proficient and then the other thing i really struggled with was to your point during live so many times it's just this five minute go go go and that's not the most efficient way to learn because when you have two people especially when they're focused on winning and you say go they're gonna go to whatever they do best well if i'm trying to make you good at something i don't want you doing what you do best all the time i need you doing some other things right if you have a great single leg but you can't shoot to the other side of the body we need to work on that right right you need to start shooting the other side there's some sense that you it's not like you should be told what to work on but you should be told to work on the thing that you want to work on meaning because i i don't know but maybe you can comment on this but you know everybody develops a different game as you get better and better there's a set of things you need to be working on so i actually have uh like when i especially when i'm like training very seriously i'll have a specific technique to have in mind and i have a sheet of paper on the side where i literally my head keep count off how many times i put myself in that position and pulled off the technique and that's all i care about yeah in like training so i'll just uh uh whatever it is if it's a guillotine cigarette arm drag arm drag but i want to make sure i don't i love numbers so i'll say like uh i'll make sure i get 50 arm drags yeah and i'm not getting off the mat until i do and that you know if it takes thrilling our live contest uh so in this in the thing i'm describing right now is the live contest but drilling obviously drilling so i feel like i can't find a drilling part like it's so hard to find drilling partners even so boring it's it's annoying to me that this is boring and there's nothing more annoying to me than the look of boredom on another person's face when we're drawing yeah it's like do you really think drilling is that beneficial to you because you said it to josh yes yes he thinks i'm an idiot but yes why why am i am i an idiot or why not really beneficial uh let's go with suture explicit why is it so beneficial um i think for me it's there's a meditative aspect to it where the more you drill the more you start noticing the the details okay let me let me pull my new details a little bit here i'm not gonna push back all the way because um so every time if i was wrestling i won't crash something like whatever right but even so say like at a high level when i'm really wrestling 10 years ago um even during that drill portion if we talk about the resistance of our opponent from zero to 100 um it's very likely that my partner at that point because people i'm really comfortable with they're probably at least going 20 or 30 right they're probably giving me a certain look with the sprawl or you know i got to get through their hands if i if i don't set it up right they might put their arm down right so it's like we are drilling because we're wrestling at a really low resistance level but there's a little bit of sparring oh yeah between yeah yeah yeah so that's not really drilling because i think a drilling i think literally you're shooting and i'm just going to boom your dummy it's very hard to be a dummy that doesn't do twenty percent so you're gonna do twenty percent yeah that's so so yes that's twenty percent but that's like sparring a little bit then no but they're not really resisting they're just giving you the right frame they're they're giving you the right like movement and they're being they're being an intelligent dummy essentially i mean but also like the really important component of this is you pick the techniques for which it's beneficial if the technique is has dynamic elements to it you don't want to be doing that with i'm saying like there's certain moves and i like those moves and i select the game based on those moves are you drilling to get better are you drawing just to work out no to get better that's what i'm trying to tell you i i believe you can become like exceptionally good very fast by drilling but how but first of all let me let me ask you an empirical question let me have you actually drilled ten thousand times that's gonna move millions you haven't drilled millions hundreds of thousands hundreds of thousands likely i think you're just saying numbers i don't think you know what a hundred thousand it's way more ten thousand i don't think it's over a hundred thousand there was a ten year period where i wrestled every single day that's yeah that's uh three thousand days so you're telling me ten thousand that's only three of them a day i did way more than that three of them probably had 30 of them a day that's that's a hundred thousand yeah yeah hundreds of thousands i'm i doubt you get 30 a day for i did four i am for sure 100 there's no doubt all right because some days i might do a hundred right so 30 30 is not very many especially if we count all reps if we're counting drilling and live so like our coach college choices make us just drill a lot and i always hated it so i would i would rebel and just kind of give a little spar you know you shoot a high crotch we'll start you know coach wants to draw high grounds okay we'll start you shoot the high crotch that's great then i'm gonna sit the corner i'm gonna give you my hip or i'm gonna you know i'm gonna try something so then you have to react and i would argue that um all skill level past like the beginner stuff is is some necessity of that right i'm gonna do this then what are you gonna do it's it's back and forth i should just sing like what are you gonna do i should highlight 20 you and you have to start unconsciously programming these things in your head because if you consciously think about it it's going to be too slow to actually hit in a matter but the drilling is the unconscious programming but but the simple movement the the first simple movement the first simple movement that single leg or the high crotch or arm j whatever like i feel like the amount you're going to get better at it is so miniscule compared to the amount you're going to gain at doing other things around it no but that's the key word you feel okay that's your opinion if we did if we did a study on it that i would be proven correct no perhaps so first of all your brain as an exceptionally creative combat athlete it's clear that you don't like the boredom of drilling like it's obvious that you that you have like you're such a creative energy that you're just not going to be somebody who's going to enjoy that so enjoyment is probably having an active mind is really important so the the the question is do you have the kind of makeup that has an active mind during a drilling on a dummy and i have that mind like yeah you really think okay so if you're uh let's pick a technique what technique do you want to draw a lot i was doing jiu jitsu or wrestling whatever you want um it's hard to describe with words but certain guard passes uh let me let me think just guar pass okay so you have a card pass and you get it to be as a 9.5 out of 10 right just from a from a technical standpoint don't you think you need some resistance to feel because essentially all all benefit after that is going to be what are they going to try to do to me if they shift that way do i need to i need a single year or move there so it's like i so i i actually think we're agreeing but maybe terminology wise well the split is the important thing like how much of each so i think it is spar i i think it's a very light touch bar is what you're talking about which is in my opinion really isn't drilling and it's because drilling past the basic proficiency i don't think brings much value but that's what i'm trying to tell you is i think it does i think i think um if you're doing that same movement i think you begin to learn more over time like you're saying like once you get the basic proficiency then there's uh diminishing returns i don't yeah so that's what i think i don't think so i think everything has diminishing returns when you're learning a technique but with something as complex as wrestling or grappling um if if you can have way more gains over here why focus on going from a 9.7 to a 9.8 if you if this other area if you're spending so much time here that there's other areas left unexplored you can make gigantic gains over there no but you're going to lose i i think a lot depends on your style i think a lot is determined by how good you are at one thing and so if you want to become a master of a particular thing and then make your whole game where it's all pulled into that system then i don't know if one is too small of a number not yeah it's small i i feel like you can't be easily this like yeah you want you want a funnel you want to create funnels funnels funnels right where everything goes into a few positions and then it's all fields yeah yeah but i feel that you can get like drilling on a dummy 80 of the time and 20 of the time live rolling with people worse than you like a little bit worse than you or a lot worse yeah so i think so i think i definitely think so my my build up would be um teach so we're talking complex technique right so by the time we're talking about we'll say a late high school kid who's pretty proficient um he's probably done the drilling part so then now it's like okay if i want to get something new to you i'll probably tell you you'll probably do the basic premise within five to ten minutes if they're good right do this okay they do it then it's like okay so now here from here what we're going to do we're going to go light sparring so i know you have success because i need you to complete the task in order to get better at that's something a lot of people in wrestling mess up is they just want to go the toughest person but if you're the toughest person you're not going to actually execute on any skills you're getting your workout being and i need you to execute because i need to get good at this in order to get good you have to get all the way through the tech why do you need them to complete just so they gain confidence in the technique or they go they have to feel all the way through like if i said learn a high crotch when you're drilling with stop halfway every time but you're not actually gonna be able to do it because you're gonna stop you're gonna feel so you know try it on someone spar lightly get it do it on someone who's not as good you get it then kind of work your way up the ladder until you can get it on someone your own skill level or maybe better than you right in in a live competition so it's like i don't know i feel like that that basic drilling like um so a kid like keegan who i brought a few times like i feel like if there's something new i could literally tell him like this is what i want you to do and he's such a great feel like he could go drill it proficiently within probably a minute or two but then to hit it on someone high level that's going to take quite a while longer and that's a mix of drilling and sparring on people a little bit worse than you yeah and then better yeah then equal and then better yeah okay yeah because there's there's there's this with with grappling right there's such like a feel component to the the pressure the movement and all these things and there's still like there's so many things you can throw at someone out of one position not just moves but moves a different level of force or or whatever are you and these kids developing like a big picture strategy of like what are the main setups and takedowns and just like a whole system um so we you know i kind of sent you our technique book right and how we kind of go and approach it so i think in wrestling you're going to need you're going to need a handful of things just off the off the word go right you're going to so i think on our feet i need to build take this out of the body i need to build attack that side of the body i need to be able to bring you underneath me i need to be able to go around you right now we can accomplish those different ways but we should have all those weapons if we want to be really good some way right um so if i neglect one of those so if i neglect the abilities they pull you down right from headlock you um now if i have a good shot and you're smart you're just going to lower your stance so my shot is not going to be as successful and i have the inability to pull you down right so i kind of need all of those so i can as they get better i can point those things out um on bottom my folks out bottom there's certain things like you have to be good at leg ride defense right you have to i mean at a high level or you're just go you're gonna get when you get it in you're just getting stuck there not gonna be able to escape um but besides that yeah there's a there's a multitude of things you can choose from and i'm gonna depending on your body style uh and what you're good and bad at i'm gonna probably develop something a little different i might give you hey you do the quad pod you'd be better with a knee slide whatever um yeah and top kind of same thing i have to ask you about khabib so i remember a while ago rogan said that uh that's the perfect fight uh yeah it could be you are so let me ask two questions the first do you think you can beat him in an mma match when you're at your peak yeah i i don't like uh yeah i mean this is one of those people where people like will get really mad at me if i say yes but yeah i mean how would you do it how would you solve that puzzle yeah uh i mean we would grapple and i think i would be better than him but you know i i feel weird saying because people like yeah i write your bullshit you know and but that's no no one out grappled them right i mean nobody did and maybe i'm wrong on this but i if we will get the best possible candidates i'm definitely one of them and obviously i have a small size advantage too so in a wrestling match so we can just reduce that mma match to a wrestling match what do you think is the right strategy on him like do you understand his style that the the the his wrestling style the pressure he applies do you understand yeah how the hell he makes it happen yeah i mean he never unfortunately fought any real who i would say really really high level wrestlers i was actually really disappointed how bad justin gaich's wrestling was because just engage he had some solid success but justin was really bad in that fight um gaetje has success at uh yeah i think he was seventh place maybe or so somewhere he was definitely all american uh it was lower though um so yeah i would i would like to see how he dealt with someone who was like who i think oh man this guy's a really high level wrestler because you know we saw and this is early in his career but you know grayson tebow did give him some issues earlier in his career um so i would like to see him in that situation and see how he does i would love to like you know i i just love wrestling and grappling like yeah i'd love this someone said hey ben you know khabib wants to roll with you okay i'm there tomorrow it sounds like a blast let's go it's probably competitive as hell yeah you're still competitive i know when to be and when not to be like you know say if i'm going to high school kids they're not going to be competitive because then i'm just being a dick how would you take him down what what i'm a real wrestler like wrestling wrestling wrestling wrestling i would probably try to text single eggs and stuff sing legs yeah i haven't okay no no i mean i have no i've honestly i don't have the slightest clue i'd have to feel i'd feel them out um but single leg's my best takeaway people talk about his wrestling being really good the people that train with him so okay so i i grilled someone i will not say who on the ed ruth think ed ruth is very elite at folk style wrestling he never became that great at fighting unfortunately wait ed ruth wrestled khabib they were on the same team for a while yeah okay and there was rumors that could be beat him up and i said i sure can't believe that and i've heard that that was if they were just straight wrestling ed would get slightly the better of it well edwards is like one of the greats he's great he's really good yeah so that was what i heard but in an mma setting because of all the tools that khabib would get them i don't know but it what but i agree i agree with rogan on this one that would have been good to see yeah i'm fine so yeah if kaby wants to work out i'd love it i love i love wrestling and grappling i don't do much juju because i don't have time for it anymore i'm at the wrestling academy like every single day uh but yeah i i love jiu jitsu while i did it and you know if i didn't have wrestling cameras i probably would still be doing jiu jitsu yeah you did well and you just as well but let me ask you a ridiculous question who's the greatest of all time freestyle or folk style oh wrestling wrestling hmm well i i will say my knowledge past like the year 2000 is really not that great because you can which direction sorry after 2000 no before because you can't find any film or anything you know and so you hear involvement so you need evidence you need direct evidence i want to be able to watch them and see them and feel the times and feel their opponents and you know all those things to really like i i hate giving bad answers you know so um i would i there's just not enough footage of any of those people you know we go back to someone like alexander medved like you can't find footage you can't find anything on him you know it's like who is he wrestling you know i'm not sure so um post 2000 i think and also just freestyle so um americans right it's just the tf has the probably the best argument posted i think said july of um if you guys have the russian tank that guys yeah yeah so who's who's better snyder or such alive so sigil i just wanted the olympics i understand this i understand how that works but there's pretty close right not really not not that much but in general the match up so well so kyle won the first one in 17 said july i have pinned him the following year but then kyle lost and took bronze in 19 um and then just lost i don't want i don't want to say fairly decisively but it was it was six to three and that there was a late takedown he kind of gave it up and maybe feels really competitive maybe he wouldn't have um they're gonna wrestle again in like two weeks here so that you know yeah i mean you have to say said july at this point there's nothing else to say unless kyle proves us otherwise yeah not enough people talk about said you're live okay why you think that guy should go to mma i think kyle should go to mma some of these guys yeah they're making enough money in wrestling where they don't really feel the need to it's just terrifying though it's a heavy weight such a life would probably it's like it's like could be but heavy weight well i don't know if you remember do you remember bill mahoff sabilal makhov actually was the russian representative in both styles in 2016 gregoire and freestyle um and he was to my knowledge the only person the ufc's ever signed that was zero and z in modern era signed that was zero and zero and then he actually never ended up fighting but weird right so yeah my motivation i i don't know i don't know what the story is because sometimes out of russia i mean maybe better sources than i do sometimes it feels like dudes just disappear like they're a world champ or a little big champion i'll say you're like wait i didn't where'd he go you talked shit about russia earlier in the conversation so what'd i say i i forgot but i think steroids i think somebody's gonna show up to your door i'm worried i honestly i've said enough bad things where i would be you know kind of looking over my shoulder if i went to the science or something uh i for one love the russians what about icarus how does that make you feel what about it it's fake news oh really i'm just kidding it's yeah you know it's troublesome man i hate cheating in all of its forms uh any other like recaps from the olympics of uh 2020 tokyo that stood out to you gable stevenson like anything like that yeah um no i think america is coming to the point where we're going to compete with russia every single year in wrestling which obviously you know i a long long time ago many many we did we were great and then kind of after that soviet union period i think there was a lot of poverty in that area and that kind of led the wrestling team going down a little bit and then obviously a lot of those regions where they found oil and gas in the caspian sea i believe and they've been um really kind of on the upswing for the last 20 years and now uh america really since 2012 has been on the upswing in wrestling and we're kind of really competing with them and they're not sending a couple of their best guys at top so so for those who don't know the olympics i put back in the year so they are hosting the 2021 world championships despite the fact that we just had the olympics two months ago so it's happening next week in oslo norway so like russia is not sending their number one at 57 and number 165 so it's like america's probably gonna win i think i don't want to guarantee anything but there's there's a really good chance jake taylor also competing america gave any of the olympians that meddled the opportunity to not even have to wrestle off they just got to keep the spot since it was two months later if they meddled so the only one who's not as gable gable's moving on we have a pretty good guy behind him named nick was dallas he was a world medalist uh but then he said burroughs filled in the 79 spot jayden cox filled in the 92 spot who's a world champion also so we have uh uh it's a hell of a team pretty good squad yeah pretty good squad okay so given your run in bellator in one championship that was like one of the most dominant runs in mma what would you say was like key to your dominance and that long undefeated streak huh i i'd probably con consistency would be one the fact that i just i lived and trained the same way no matter where my life was whereas a lot of fighters once they start making money for the first time they have all these obligations and they travel and they they really enjoy making money and that's kind of why some of them fall off she had like the same process like the same yeah my house i didn't vacation ever yeah everything just no you know i and so that was a big part of it um obviously the the style thing is like no one could there's only a few people who could stop my style um and i think i continued to get better as a mixed martial artist and um i wasn't as innovative in mixed martial arts but there was a handful of things that i innovated you know specifically in the top position where i spent a lot of time where just like there was just once that got on top of you it was like in a spider web and there was just kind of no way out you know you never felt the certain things i was doing and so people just think hey they gave up eventually how's the level of wrestling in mma would you say so uh i i saw somewhere like champions the the most popular martial art for current ufc champions they're all wrestling so we just lost a bunch of the bells wrestling wrestling as a sport right but yeah one point we had i think it was eight of nine maybe or something to that effect uh and i think i think it's not just wrestling not just the actual martial art of wrestling that contributes to our success in mixed martial arts but other things like this the way we're systemized so most kids who each have assists have went through the high school program and the college program and they know how to show up on time and they know how to work hard so when they go to att or aka or wherever they know how to show up on time and they know how to work hard and that's going to get you a really long way just those two things right not even the techniques it's just the disciplines those things then i think you throw on top of the fact that most of us have competed 1500 to 2000 times probably by the time we get to 20 something like that's a huge advantage too most of these other people from other disciplines maybe have completed 100 if if that right so we have this competitive process down really really really really well um plus the weight cut the weight cut there's all these things right that factor into it um i think the fact that we're really open-minded like i think if you would i don't pick on jiu-jitsu again but like how many jiu jitsu guys have become highly proficient in wrestling versus how many wrestling guys have become highly proficient in jiu jitsu i think that number swings one way and not that much the other way you know so we're open to adapting and learning and and for some reason like jiu jitsu people how many of them have got high level wrestling or even mediocre wrestling and the number's really small like they refuse to it's really frustrating like why won't they do this is obviously a part of it you know if like i don't pick on specific guys but there's certain guys in the history of mma where you're like listen man i mean damien maya who uh who's my last fight is a great example somebody actually did get proficient wrestling right but there's something that's jude you guys was like if you just got on top you would submit him why can't you learn a freaking takedown like holy moly like just just learn how to take someone down once you get them down they will not get up and you win the fight like it's so easy you know but they refuse how complicated is that journey so like uh donahue that you mentioned yeah craig jones they're big on wrestling as part of justin now yeah like wrestling not just on the feet but wrestling from the bottom coming up and all that kind of stuff so how difficult is that whole skill set would you say for jiu-jitsu person to learn um not that hard if they really put their mind to because they already like when you grapple and this is any grappling art like there's a certain part of it that you kind of get and it can it might not be the exact same thing but you understand how your body moves and how to feel certain pressures and you can adapt yourself pretty quickly you know so i don't think that i think there's a certain level of stubbornness where they didn't want to certain people didn't want to do it for whatever reason i think a lot of times in mma it's the i'm so macho i can stand and bang thing you know where they want to you know show how macho they are um but yeah that was a frustrating one that they it there's a lot of wrestlers who became highly proficient in jiu jitsu and really adapted and it doesn't go the other way and then i guess the other thing there too is um they can both steal from each other right as any martial art can steal from another and like i feel like jujitsu didn't do enough stealing from wrestling like they should have looked at all the wrestling possible and said well why why don't we steal that and that and that you know and like hey let's take that over and maybe we'd make a little tweak because it's different but there's something we can definitely use there so like in wrestling for example you know there's a one-armed guillotine in jujitsu right okay so there's a move called well it's got a hurricane it's like the oldest move in wrestling because it's what they did the cows where they go around the chin and they throw them on their back i don't really call that one i don't know okay sorry did you just ask me what i call that one yeah would you take a cow and grab it by the no no no but in wrestling in wrestling i don't know okay are you putting it under yeah so you grab their chin and then you go under their arm and then throw them underneath okay gotcha yeah yeah so we call that the honey badger but it's got honey badger different names wherever you go it's got different names um so i would always i would say like pre-jiu-jitsu i was i was average at it like i could do it i but against good people you'd never get it first because i'll tell you what exactly because they would get the back of their head up and they're too strong where you couldn't collapse them by going over their neck right because the forces weren't right so then in jiu jitsu you learn the one arm guillotine where you grab their chin and this is more of running along the side of their head and then and then you go here and you choke them right much more efficient way to move their head because the fulcrum is way down here and their head can move into that right so once i learned that in jiu jitsu i'm like wait i can do this in wrestling so now once i learn how to grab their chin the right way and i do the honey badger no one ever gets out i just had to steal that jiu jitsu put in wrestling and boom there we go but very few people steal any direction that takes creativity really and open minds so easy because it's already done you just got to steal it i mean saying with judo if you're a geek you're just a person there's so much stuff in judo that um that's ripe for the stealing because uh judo is much more emphasizes uh explosive uh moves on the transition which is something gestured does not do because you have seen from the takedown to from the takedown but also just in general just in the transition the concept of transition the um like it just is very much about like we're in this position then we're in this position then we're in this position yeah the the the judo is much more in when it when there's chaos of any kind yeah that's when you need to strike them and to learn that i mean that's why people like travestines and judoka when they go to jiu-jitsu they can dominate but just the people should steal that too stubborn yeah but so is every wrestlers are stubborn too no way there would never be any stubborn wrestlers well i mean i was surprised you know all these coaches john smith dan gable they don't really have interest in mma or jiu jitsu and so on like but you would think somebody like a john smith would like put on a white belt and roll around yeah i think he's just too focused on you know well he's a coach he's a coach and what he's doing yeah i mean yeah i think if you if you take him when he's younger he would have a lot of fun we actually have a really good wrestler making his mma debut tomorrow and if you bow nickel i'm sure you've heard of him very high level i think he's going to have a lot of success i mean some people might say that like jiu jitsu makes you a little comfortable being in your back and for a wrestler that could be like really bad i hate that take yeah but that that's the dan gable take it's so stupid it's so stupid for god's sakes we know the fucking rules russell you don't go to your back and jiu-jitsu you can it's like whatever yeah nobody likes to jujutsu for example um so i coached when i was at rufus i coached the wrestling for a long three four five years um so i've been taking a jiu jitsu guy and teaching them a wrestling technique where you needed to use your feet to teach youtube guys so easy so simple because they're they don't understand the concept butterfly guard etcetera etcetera etcetera right to take a wrestler who's never done any of it and teach him how to use his feet oh my god it's such a beast it's so hard you know because they just that's not a weapon they're thinking about using so it's like we understand the rules it's like freestyle folks are wrestling freestyle form on the map i can lock my hands you don't see people lock on their hands all the time in folk style just because they did freestyle it's like they they get it there's a rule they understand it so the notion that somebody comes from on your back but pinning that's like a it has a special meaning yeah but i actually think so jiu jitsu you uh you don't actually want to be right flat flat very often right you want to be i always wondered this because i did a couple of catch wrestling tournaments and i did i would put myself in butterfly guard and i wasn't going against good people so which is why i was doing all these things but i wondered if you could create a system of wrestling where your butterfly card so i think that there's there's a few places where i use it but so specifically the elevator series which my main suits off bottom it is it's not a butterfly guard it's a butterfly guard like grip with your foot so i boom i go here i catch with my your leg with my foot boom and it elevates you over right um and then also sometimes like uh i think keegan does it too from watching me but if i get double leg sometimes uh if i'm accepting uh so freestyle obviously you're gonna give a point focus on accepting that you've already got me and as i go down i'm just gonna butterfly guard you off you know and then i'm gonna try to flip my hip back to the mat and end up in a wizard position like i've used that quite a few times where it's kind of like a bailout mechanism that gets me back to maybe not a great position but obviously much better than being taken down beautiful yeah let me ask you quickly about crypto because you're also you have a you have a show you uh you have a lot of interest in cryptocurrency why are you interested in cryptocurrency is it just a financial investment or is there a philosophy that attracts you to it philosophy so i my friend told me about in 2017 i was actually i went to i was i was uh my friend met me in shanghai i fought in one championship um and he told me and the second he told me i'm like i'm so in because i had read ron paul and the fed i read i you know kind of had understanding how the fed is unfair um and so we told him about crypto this decentralized system that no one has control over it just made sense and so like we've had you have the podcast we would say michael sailor on and i love the wasted it's like who do you trust more with your money you trust the politicians or do you trust engineers i think that's an easy choice i don't even think i don't even think i have to think about that i don't trust politicians no matter what country they come from china america wherever i don't trust them so what about uh into in uh 2017 what was bitcoin are you um what do you what do you find which ones do you find interesting yeah there's all kinds of ideas so there's the the the more sort of primal mechanism of proof-of-work and bitcoin and then there's smart contracts ideas and uh there's all kinds of innovations across the different uh so i can't say i'm yeah i'm in super deep where i understand the technical components of a lot of them i understand what bitcoin can do for people and so that's probably the one i've i focused the most on um and i actually i think i was talking about i was trying to convince michael to talk about bitcoin because he hates it also wait dinner last night and i think most of the main problems bitcoin solves people in america are so american-centric they don't understand it so like high levels of inflation that hasn't happened what's starting to happen it hasn't happened in america in a long time right but someone in venezuela is like oh i get that you know or remittance payments right remittance payments to you see it so i saw this in um when i was spending time in singapore singapore is obviously a really wealthy country and so you'd have indonesian workers or philippines and they would all go on sundays they would go to these places to ship stuff back to their families and through western union western union couches the shit out of these people i mean they're taking 8 10 12 of whatever they're sending then it takes five days and the person's gonna pick it up whereas bitcoin i could send you bitcoin person to person right so like american people don't understand that american people don't really understand the unbanked right a decent portion of the world is unbanked they don't have access to it and a much much much smaller portion of the world doesn't have access to internet so if i can put a mobile wallet on your phone and we can send money person to person so there's a whole bunch of those problems where americans don't really think about that are really obvious that this solves um so i think that's the key one obviously the fact that i'm the value goes up is really outstanding also but i but if you look at it yeah i got in in 2017 so i got to watch it go up i didn't sell shit at the top really stupid and then the majority of my time was spent through the bear market and so i had to love it for the principles that it provided not the fact that actually i actually lost money in the beginning and not now i'm way up but um yeah so you're just holding just holding i think at the top of this bull market i'll probably sell a very small portion um just so you mean like right now there's a bull market yeah most most people think say in the next three to six months will be at the top of the market and so probably when that happens uh i'll probably sell a little bit you gotta huddle it ben you got a hot well yeah so i well i don't here's why i am so my pot one of my podcast co-hosts he's he's like super rich like uber rich so he has lost touch with the every man yeah so here's my argument to him it's really simple um and listen i'm doing well for myself in life but if say someone buys a bitcoin right one bitcoin five thousand dollars which it was last year and this bitcoin goes from five thousand dollars to two hundred thousand dollars which is you know right around what a lot of people think the peak is going to be they bought one bitcoin and they're living in a 200 000 house so to take half of that right you started with five thousand dollars of bitcoin to sell half a bitcoin for a hundred thousand dollars and pay off your house your remaining house payment that's life-changing to someone it really is and so you still have a bitcoin so if bitcoin goes to a million you're still gonna have half a million and you're gonna feel really really rich with it half a million dollars because you bought it for for f and twenty five hundred dollars you know yeah so yeah so i would encourage anyone who's not uber rich to if you have huge profits take a little bit of them because it could change your life and if you hold it and it goes down you're going to feel the pain of that like sometimes if you're more constrained financially it's much more psychologically difficult to ride the wood the ups and downs yeah it is for sure they have this really fascinating things in bitcoin actually i said the guy on uh one of the main guys on our podcast is it's called on chain metrics so all all wallet transactions are visible you know and so they have these all these fun categories i love so i actually i think you said you don't like numbers but i like numbers i love numbers also so they have all these different categories like um you can see how long a wallet has held a bitcoin right or how many bitcoins are in a certain wallet and so what they've seen during this the downturn right so april it kind of peaked and went down is that the the whales are still boston whales people have a thousand or more are still buying they've said the main group of sellers is the ones who held it from zero to three months so like they don't have money they bought it because they thought it was going up and i was like oh shit i gotta sell it right whereas anyone's head out for a long time is generally still holding on that's interesting that's a good indicator right for the whole space yeah well let me ask you for some advice you've been through one heck of a career one heck of a life what advice would you give to a young person today well in wrestling i i think wrestling is really a microcosm of what your life's going to be and that's why one of the things that i stress to kids is like if we can go through this now and figure i i've couple kids you're struggling certain things around if you can figure out this now in wrestling to be a lot better figure out now and get over this mental hump then when you're 32 and you have two kids and right and your job's not going well it's gonna be a lot worse it's gonna be a lot more painful then let's let's fucking figure it out now so a lot of these things a lot of these lessons we can learn from wrestling whether it's persistence or perseverance or work ethic or you know i said wrestles show up on time and they work hard right these things if we can learn these things at an early age those are general those characteristics characteristics will generally carry on throughout our life and those are the things that are going to make us really successful so um you know i would say find a great coach someone who's gonna spend a lot of time and put a lot of time into you and make sure they have a lot of wisdom and steal all the wisdom that you can from them and then though if you can be successful at one thing generally whatever that recipe was that took you to be successful with that apply to everything else right apply to the rest of your life apply it to uh getting a wife that you enjoy uh apply it to living in a place you want to live doing a job you want to do right there's so many possibilities and you just have to be bold enough to take those chances it's interesting because like early on in life is when you have much more time like people don't realize this time to learn the lessons like somehow later in life you get busier responsibilities and all that kind of stuff like high school is a magical time in college college yeah yeah there's so much time right learn well you don't even have kids yet yeah i don't have kids still fills up well no i on purpose and i did something that many people don't seem to be able to do i walked away from a lot of responsibilities just by saying goodbye oh okay but like but you know meetings like everybody around me at mit was like meetings fill the day and then you have more projects and you do a great job and you become successful and then the more meetings fill the day and more responsibilities as opposed to like wait a minute do i want to be involved in all these things uh and instead do i want to find one or two things to really focus on and that's what i choose but like yeah that becomes harder and harder and harder to get older you know what i mean i'm sure and and also the more success you have you become sought after other places yeah too i'm sure that's happening with you and it's hard to say keep saying no no no it's hard yeah yeah you're known for roasting people with a single boom roasted line so uh any ideas maybe you want to mention malice but any ideas come to uh mine when you look at me man i do you know what uh if i was gonna boom roast someone i would want to kind of like research their career and dissect them and figure out their biggest get to the core and i did i didn't have that notion with you i figured i got a general sense of okay he's really successful he's super sharp uh he's really interested in some really interesting things i bet we'll have a great conversation but i had no intention to roast you yeah there you go what about mouse you had dinner with him last night hmm for him oh man um how'd you get to know him by the way just twitter where's the most magical place in the world right i always tell you it's a great source of information if you know how to use it um hmm he's insane on twitter actually he saw i had to unfollow him on twitter because he it was too intense too much just too much too much it fills up like i want to be able to consume the content so if i want to see something he says i can go to his page right but it's just too much for my timeline i want to be able to consume who i follow so i try to not follow a lot of people because i want to be able to consume them um and he was he was too much he he fights the trolls which uh i don't know why we would ever fight the trolls there's just too many of them well he's the troll himself he's like the big troll fighting the little trolls he's the king troll there's a million of them so even if you kill if you kill a hundred thousand they're still not a hundred thousand left did you just keep calling he's gonna ignore him it's the like the night walker or whatever yeah well i'll take it because you had nothing um you could you couldn't roast gsp out of respect too yeah so i'm just gonna take that as a sign what do you say bad about gsp now i try to roast his hair like why are you trying to grow grow hair now after all these years he looked good bald everyone loved him with his head shaved yeah now it looks kind of strange like why you got hair now well it was uh one of the more surreal moments of my life is so he was here and he wore a black suit and tie oh really yeah we did the podcast with him just mirror image of me and then we also did uh i haven't released it yet but just a video together and i was doing a martial arts stuff in a suit and tie that was quite sick that was quite uh that that's like like certain moments in your life are just like i can't believe i was part of that yeah from uh with gsp uh so yeah i don't think i have anything to roast him about um i mean maybe the matt sarah thing would be the one that you could get him with you know but uh yeah i would be i would be really fascinated like really dig deep uh from a sports psychology standpoint because he always talks about how much fear he had when he was competing and i and i find that to be interesting because obviously so it's almost like to me it's almost like was he successful despite that not because of that right and because anxiety usually leads it really negative performance for the majority of people and what was it about him that the anxiety wasn't super negative you know what i'm saying like it's it's very interesting i wonder that too so i have i wanted that about him but i have a huge amount of anxiety interacting especially with people just about everything yeah i wonder if that's helpful or or not it feels like it's very helpful well i think so it's okay i think in two different so i think uh probably your everyday life okay is different than like in a performance or a competition it's you have to be like super in the moment of what you're doing so anything that's pulling you away like oh my gosh high school kids right that coach oh my gosh my that girl's in the stands and if i get beat then and they're actually they're actively thinking about this other thing when this is going on and i need a hundred percent of your focus well here he's never i don't think he has anxiety in the ring that's the point i think like i have the same thing like if i have a really high performance thing that i have to do uh i don't know let you in front of a lot of people yeah that would be a great example that there's huge amount of anxiety weeks ahead days ahead hours ahead so you have a system to get rid of it then maybe but it's just the body gets rid of it somehow yeah there's not a system subconscious system yeah it's so you don't you don't actually have anxiety while you're performing so that's like so then that problem somehow that problem has solved itself right the problem is when the anxiety is actually happening while the wrestling match is happening that's the real issue yeah but it's it like sneaks in there too is that's the difference between mma in wrestling is there's no breaks in wrestling right yeah i guess there is you can look at the crowd a little bit like you can look so maybe maybe but like the there's other things we have to perform well there's more breaks like a lecture you can catch yourself thinking like in this conversation you know yeah like i'll i've said a bunch of stuff where i think why the hell would you say that that's dumb right that that's the anxiety because there's a pause and that that that could be um i don't know i i think it just pushes me to be better but maybe i could be way better if i'll go that yeah it's scary to think that jsp if you let go that way because he didn't even better yeah or did he ever did did he have like you're saying like you don't necessarily feel those so i think certain people that i've coached like they would describe how they would feel literally during the wrestling match right and you're saying like during the speech performance it's mostly gone yep and that's that's it'll be interesting to see if like you know he talked a lot about that but if it was all if it was all the way somehow gone and he it means he would have a mechanism for it so i had a really bad performance my freshman year of high school at nationals because i had i had the ability to be anxious and what my coaches talked about like and a lot of a type personalities are kind of that way you know because they're trying to consider all possibilities at the same time and and while we're actually performing or competing it's negative to performance right um so he said he would always leading up to the match within say an hour he would his name was talking about fishing he would get someone to talk about fishing with him because they would stop him thinking about the match and and being uber anxious so i i kind of really took that hard and it really helped me as i would always like have someone to talk to and just just goof around about whatever so i'm not thinking about this thing and then once i step in it's time to go so i didn't have this like anxious buildup and that was how for me i took it away but like me you know like you said you have a way to get it away obviously because yeah i guess so i guess there's little little tricks you come up with yeah you start thinking about it's not fishing maybe i should try the fishing thing but i hate fishing so boring well maybe maybe it's good to think about that all right ben this is uh like i told you i'm a big fan i'm a big fan of your wrestling your fighting your personality uh thank you for coming down thank you for talking today huge honor bam let's go wrestle thanks for listening to this conversation with ben askren to support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you with some words from muhammad ali only a man who knows what it is like to be defeated can reach down to the bottom of his soul and come up with the extra ounce of power it takes to win when the match is even thank you for listening and hope to see you next time you