Destiny: Politics, Free Speech, Controversy, Sex, War, and Relationships | Lex Fridman Podcast #337
if you have a democratic style of governance you are entrusting people with one of the most awesome and radical of responsibilities and that's saying that you're going to pick the people that are going to make some of the hardest decisions in all of human history if you're going to trust people to vote correctly you have to be able to trust them to have open and honest dialogue with each other whether that's Nazis or KKK people or whoever talking um you have to believe that your people are going to be able to rise above and make the correct determinations when they hear these types of speeches and if you're so worried that somebody's going to hear a certain political figure and they're going to be completely radicalized instantly then what that tells me is that you don't have enough faith in humans for democracy to be a viable institution which is fine you can be anti-democratic but you I don't think you can be pro-democracy and anti-free speech the following is a conversation with Steven benell also known online as Destiny he's a video game streamer and political commentator one of the early pioneers of both live streaming in general and live streamed political debate and discourse politically he is a progressive identifying as either left or far-left depending on your perspective there are many reasons I wanted to talk to Stephen first I just talked to Ben Shapiro and many people have told me that Stephen is the bench Shiro of the left in terms of political perspective and exceptional debate skills second reason is he skillfully defends some nuanced non-standard View use at the same time being pro-establishment pro- institutions and pro Biden while also being pro capitalism and pro- Free Speech third reason is he has been there at the beginning and throughout the meteoric rise of the video game live streaming community in some mainstream circles this community is not taken seriously perhaps because of its demographic distribution skewing young or perhaps because of the sometimes harsh style of communication but I think this community should be taken seriously and shown respect millions of young minds tune in to live streams like Destinies to question and to try to understand what is going on with the world often exploring challenging even controversial ideas the language is sometimes harsher and the humor sometimes meaner than I would prefer but I Grandpa Lex put on my rain boots and went into the beautiful chaotic muck of online discourse and have so far survived to tell the tale with a smile and even more love in my heart than before on top of all this we were lucky to have Molina Goron a popular streamer and World traveler join us at the end of the conversation you can check out her channel on twitch.tv/ Molina and you can check out Steven's channel on youtube.com Destiny this is Alex Freedman podcast to support it please check out our sponsors in the description and now dear friends here's Destiny I don't know if you watched me watching your yay interview yeah thank you so much for I'm so curious when you're navigating a conversation like that are you how intentional is the thought process between like building Rapport and pushing and and giving a little let like zero zero intention I was watching and thank you so much it was very kind for you to review that conversation it meant a lot that you were complimentary Parts on the technical aspects of the conversation but no zero and I'm actually deliberately uh trying to avoid I think you've called a debate brain uhhuh uh which is just another flavor of thinking about like The Meta conversation trying to optimize how should this conversation go because I feel like the more you do that the better you get at that the less human connection you have like the less genuinely you're actually sitting there in the moment and listening to the person you're more like calculating what's the right thing to say versus like feeling what is uh what is that person feeling right now what what are they thinking that's what I'm trying to do is like putting myself in their mind and thinking what does the world look like to them what is the world feel like to them and so from that I truly try to listen now I'm also learning especially cuz Rogan and others have been giving me shit for not pushing back mhm it's good sometimes to say from a a place of care for the other human being to say stop what did you just say I don't think that's represents who you are and what you really mean or maybe if it does at that time represents who they are I can see a better a better world if they grow into a different direction try to point that direction out to them there's a really complicated dance between letting somebody share their full story versus letting somebody like essentially I guess like prze your audience and it's like okay hold on let's take a minute here but yeah I used to be four or five years ago it was attack attack attack attack attack whatever you said and now I'm leaning way more towards the like okay well tell me how you feel about everything and then we'll go from there so a lot of people like my new approach some older fans who watch and they're like why are you letting this guy just Ramble On you know he said like five or six wrong things and you're only going to call him out on two of them and it's like just different styles of conversation but yeah do you do a lot of research beforehand too depending on the conversation yeah so if we're going to talk like vaccines and stuff yeah that's a ton of reading and stuff that I never thought I'd know going into it um if it's a more personal like political philosophy conversation there's not as much you can prepare for just it truly depends on the conversation how much are you actually listening to the other person always listening you have to listen because as soon as you stop listening the quality everything falls apart the connection disappears the quality of the conversation disappears but my natural inclination is to just be way more aggressive than normal so I have to constantly remind myself I guess you would call it a meta conversation like okay he's probably saying this because of that or we'll let him go here and then we'll stop later but um yeah cuz my my preferred style of conversation is like I'm going to talk and the second I say something you disagree with then let's iron it out right like like I thinking like syllogisms like okay here's premise a good okay premise B okay and then conclusion and then as long as we're both deductively sound we're not crazy no psychosis then we're going to agree on everything um whereas other people like to most people think in stories like narratives like a whole there's a whole like narrative and the individual facts don't matter as much cuz they'll pick and choose what they want and it's really hard cuz everybody thinks ner so I have to function in that world but it's uh frustrating for me sometimes well I I've seen uh you've had a lot of excellent debates one of them I just recently last night watch is uh on systemic racism and it's the first time I've seen you completely lose your shit oh shoot who was that against I'm not sure exactly but you were just very frustrated sorry not lose your shit but you were frustrated constantly because of the thing let's lay out 1 2 3 and every time you try to lay it out it would falter I think it had to do with sort of can you use data to make an argument or do you need to use a study that does an interpretation of that data and then there's like this tension between I think this is a behavioral Economist that you were talking to and the point is you do this kind of nice layout that the whole point of Behavioral economics it says there's more to it than just the data you have to give it context and like do the rich rigorous interpretation in the context of the full human story and then there was like a dance back and forth sometimes you use data sometimes not and you you getting really frustrated and shutting down and so that felt like a failure mode I've seen Sam Harris have similar sticking points like if we can't agree on the terminology we can't go on to me I feel like uh I'm sort of the the wienstein perspective is like I think if you get stuck on any one thing you're just not going to make progress you have to part of the conversation has to be about uh doing a good dance together mhm versus being dogmatically stuck on the path to truth I think the true challenge is identifying what of those sticking points are important versus what is not important so like if I'm having an argument with somebody about like Jewish representation in media they might it might be like a big conversation and they might say a couple things like I think Jewish people you know they tend to help their own or whatever they saying H okay but like for the purpose of the conversation we can keep moving but if they casually drop like you know yeah and I think that's why the Holocaust numbers were blown up from like 100,000 to 6 million and that's I was like okay hold on wait wait if you think this we have to stop here because this is going to be it's not just a language game in this part if you really believe this fact then the whole rest of the conversation is going to be informed by that belief you know and it has to be something that doesn't bother you personally you have to step outside your own ego so Holocaust denial is somebody that would bother a lot of people and there's some things just just observe serving you I feel like when you get really good at conversation you can become a stickler to um you might have your favorite terms that really bothers you people don't agree on those terms begs the question you mean raising the question yeah I usually just won't people say stuff I just let it slide yeah you can't because if you fight when you're having a conversation with somebody and you're talking to their audience at the same time because that's really what's happening um you never want to come off as over combative or overaggressive because it puts people in like there there's like a trigger in your brain and this is true of relationship of friendships of persuasive rhetoric or whatever there's a trigger in the brain and as soon as that defensive trigger gets like flipped on everything is over you've lost the ability to persuade because everything becomes a fight at that point yeah well I wanted to talk to you cuz I heard somewhere that uh you were referred to as the bench appear of the left and since I'm talking with Ben uh as well I wanted to sort of complete spiritually this platonic political philosophy puzzle in my head you are a progressive but a progressive with many non-standard Progressive views and you had a heck of a fascinating journey through all of that and like I said I think you argue with passion sometimes with excessive amounts of passion but a really polite way of saying that almost always with uh good faith and with rigor with seriousness I asked on your subreddit which is an excellent subreddit shout out to the destiny subreddit so much uh at least for that particular post what I really loved is when I asked for questions for you they were like holy shit there's adult let's all behave like nobody say incest I was like what what's what's going on here but actually the the the questions that Rose to the top were really good so uh somebody said that Destiny was speaking of your journey was a conservative in his early teens then he became a Libertarian then he became a leftwing social justice Warrior then he flirted with socialism and now he is a Social Democrat liberal I've also heard you refer to yourself as a far-left person so to the degree there's truth to that Journey can you take me through your Evolution uh through the landscape of political ideologies that you went through so my dad comes from Kentucky and my mom is a Cuban immigrant uh Cubans are notorious for being very conservative in the United States um for historical reasons and for other reasons but um my upbringing was a very Republican one I grew up listening to Rush limau Glenn Beck Michael Savage uh on the radio Billy Cunningham I think Sean hanity a little bit later on like uh that was like my whole upbringing politically I remember I was writing I had written like articles for the school Journal like in favor of uh defending the war in Iraq and you know defending bush from all the criticism Etc so that was my upbringing U I think once I hit High School College I had my edgy like libertarian esque high school phase of like reading Ein Rand um of of figuring out that like oh my God nothing in life matters except for class and money that's actually the answer to everything and um I got to college I became a Ron Paul fan very big Ron Paul fan and then from there I kind of work do life life happens at the kind of the lowest point of my life in terms of where I'm working financially everything is like kind of in ruin in my life there's a whole bunch of dumb stuff that's happened it's probably my most conservative point I don't know what it is about like being poor and thinking like you can work your way out of it you can do whatever it's just my upbringing is always just like if you're not if you're not if you're not having financial success just work work work work work um and then I got into streaming very very lucky break everything just lined up at the right time and then as I've progressed through streaming I would say through the years I've gradually Fallen more and more to the left especially once my kid turned four five six years old and I started to see like how much different his life was just because of the financial opportunities that I was able to provide for him through no merit of his own and that started to radically change how I viewed the world in a lot of ways so actually let's like Linger on that yeah low point you worked at McDonald's you worked at a casino you uh did carpet cleaning what was the the lowest point definitely the carpet cleaning really absolutely why why was it the lowest point that's when you were just flirting with starting uh streaming my whole life has been a series of Lucky breaks really truly uh I grew up playing a lot of video games but back in my day our day um you had to read there was a lot of text on the screen back in my day we used to play they didn't all talk to yeah they cuz nowadays everything's voice active but back then you to read a lot I was really good reader and a really good vocabul I've heard you actually say that what games are we talking about what what do you mean there reading you're talking about like RPG yeah jrpg so like Final Fantasy games fantasy stars like all of these like any any RPG that would have been on the snia Sega PlayStation these are the things let's pause on that okay I just talked to Todd Howard who's um of the Elder Scrolls Fame and the Fallout Fame and Beyond what's your thoughts on Elder Scrolls why is Skyrim the greatest RPG of all time man I really don't like Skyrim or Fallout or those of games no not at all why do you hate Skyrim yeah so I really like characters and like compelling stories and narrators around those characters and I like to see them kind of like grow and change kind of like a movie or a story so in your like Final Fantasy games you've got characters um there a lot of like um like classical tropes of like a character starts off kind of like edgy angsty all on their own they develop relationships friendships they realize that the life is more about themselves and they do that and I like that that growth that's kind of what you see in all of those old uh role playing games um I didn't like the open world ones as much because your main character is just like a blank slate never talks it's for you to like project on too but there's not the same like uh linear Narrative of like growth for the character that's fascinating There's an actual story arc to the character that's more crafted in a beautiful way by the designers of the game yeah that's I don't think one is better or worse I tend towards like I want to hear a compelling story around like a set of characters that like grow and Chang as the G oh that's beautifully put then yeah I I just really loved being able to leave the time town you go outside the town and you look outside its nature and the world of possibilities is before you you can do whatever the fuck you want m i mean that immensity of just being lost in the world was really immersive for me but yeah you're right whatever attracts you about a world so you were just starting to play video games you go out play video games that's one of your lucky breaks there's just like a lot of random skills you pick up depending on the type of game you play I played a lot of teex based games on the computer so I was a very fast typer I'm still a very fast typer um read a lot you know learned weird kind of math stuff for some of the calculations some of the games I think I'm pretty good at getting information figuring stuff out learning patterns all of that and then that plus the reading and everything with the games meant that I I don't want to say I excelled in school because my grades were pretty bad but I was in like all honors all AP classes or whatever um a lot of dual enrollment a lot of AP credit going into college so I did pretty well in school probably better than I should have but it was because I had the game stuff that was like really power ing a lot of my brain there while I was trying to sleep through class to yeah so you're you're able to soak in information integrate it quickly take notes generally I think I'm pretty good at that yeah what what uh you do this a lot when you stream you're typing stuff is there a system in that note ticking and what note what do you use for note taking um does it matter I use a notepad like notepad. notepad yep notepad.exe not the Plus+ not is there genius to the madness behind that or you just don't give a shit no I mean like it it's going to depend on the style of conversation if I'm with somebody that is very meticulously organized their thoughts and they're a uh find a better word here for Rambler you can edit that in better word for Rambler somebody that talks a lot and a lot I'll start like taking notes bullet points like this this this this this this because um there's a style of conversation where I say seven or eight different things and then when you go to respond to everything I said I cut you off immediately and we argue that point but if somebody's going to do that you just like hold on you just said these eight things I'm going to respond to every single one I've written them all down and then you can go if you want to go Point by point we can but you just said all this and I wrote it down so we're going to go so what are you actually writing down like a couple of words per point they left honestly like there are very few unique conversations in politics like a lot of them are kind of retreading old ground so if we're having a debate on abortion um somebody might say like oh well I believe this thing about viability and I believe this thing about you know when they're a fetus versus a human and I'll just write down like those points so that when I go to respond I kind of have like a like note card it's like a guiding thing there to keep me centered on my response political discourse is a kind of tree you're walking down I got it and you're like taking just to keep my focus guided so I'm not like running off on a weird tangent or responding to something I didn't say or something yeah what about like doing research it just is there a system to your note taking because mentally you seem to be one of the most organized people I've listened to so is there is it in your mind or is there a system that's on paper a little of both I feel like the human mind is a beautiful thing if you have interest in an area uh so like what I'll tell people is let's say there's like a totally new topic that I'm researching I don't know anything and I've I'll do a couple of these on stream I think they're boring about people watch it I might open a Wikipedia article and I'll read and I hit something I don't know and then I open the next Wikipedia article and I'll read and then I might have like seven tabs open and I'll read and I'll read and I'll read um and I'll read a ton of stuff maybe for hour two three four hours of stuff and then by the end you know someone in chat will ask me like do you even remember like this particular thing and I'll say not really no not too much but what happens is as long as you've seen it once what will happen is like the next day the day after it we'll read something else and be like oh I remember that thing from this thing I remember like vaguely that and then if you see it like a third time you're like oh this makes sense because especially when it comes to oh here's like a little trick on stuff if you're ever reading any news and there's a place that pops up always look at it on a map because so much of history is like on a map it's so important to like know the geography it makes things make so much more sense um but yeah once I once I start to see stuff over and over again just because I've like read it a few times stuff will start to kind of connect to my mind and like oh yeah well this makes sense of course these people believe this it's because of this or of course like this happened here it's because you know that happened there um so yeah it's it's a lot of that if there's like a topic that I'm doing specific research for um so like a vaccine related stuff is a big one uh the Ukrainian Russian conflict is a big one that I'll break out a not um I'll probably get like a Google doc and I'll just start like writing like an outline of kind of the rough points of everything just to organize my thoughts around different topics yeah we're just going to go a tangent upon a tangent upon a tangent we'll return to the low point of your life at some point always returning from the philosophy to the psychology so you did uh the Ukraine topic one question is what role does US play in this war could they have done something to avoid the War uh did they have a role to play in forcing Vladimir Putin's hand do they have a role to play in um de-escalating the war towards a peace agreement and the opposite if it does escalate uh towards something like the use of a tactical nuclear weapon are the to blame or are we to blame oh man somebody sent me an email a while ago with great words um there's a specific way to navigate a conversation where you can kind of like contribute to a negative event but you're not really the one responsible for it um like the classic example is a woman goes out late at night gets a little bit too drunk and then something happens and it's like while there might have been steps she could have taken to mitigate the risk it's not her fault of what happened because the um responsibility rests on the on the agent making the choice right there's a Chooser at some point that is choosing to do wrong or evil I don't believe in any of the arguments that say the United States has contributed to Russia's position on Ukraine or the actions that they've taken on Ukraine um there are several arguments that some people uh some even political Scholars are are are putting out there to say that the United States is to blame but I find them completely unconvincing I think that when you ask the question of like what is the United States role or what has our role been I think it's really important for us I don't think we even agree as a country on what our role should should be which I think is a hard one because you've got this kind of there's this growing populist movement in the United States it might be the far left and the far right and I think populist tend to have this kind of isolationist view of the world where the United States should just be our own thing we shouldn't be telling anybody what to do we shouldn't be the World Police and then kind of more in these like Center left center right positions and then across a lot of Europe you've got well okay the United States is kind of like the big kid on the Block like we're looking to them for guidance and Leadership on situations like what's going on in Ukraine so in so far as uh the original question is like what what is like the United States responsibility I think we have a responsibility to ensure the relative like Freedom prosperity and stability across Europe I think that defending Ukraine's sovereignty and right to their borders is a part of that and I don't believe that prior to the invasion in 2022 I don't think the United States was contributing to Russia invading that country um I know there arguments given that like the expansion of NATO you know has has something that's been threatening to Russia but the baltics joined and Russia didn't do anything about it the invasion to Crimea was very clearly a response to the revolution of 2014 The Invasion on the borders is clearly a response to um Ukraine winning that uh Civil War in the Southeast and the donos and Russia becoming more aggressive I don't think that you can blame any of that on on NATO expansion there's no NATO countries that are threatening Russia or invading Russia do you think there is a nuclear threat do you think about this do you worry about this that there is a threat of a tactical nuclear weapon being dropped I think that possibility exist either way and I think the responsibility for that is on Russia because it can't it just can't be the case that if you have nukes you're allowed to invade countries and take their land because if anything I think that that down the road also increased increases the potential for nuclear problems in the future right because at that point either every single country has to acquire their own nuclear weapons because if you don't Russia's going to mess with you or every single country has to join NATO and now what we're back at square zero ground Z square one where people like oh well look all these countries joining NATO is aggressive towards Russia like what are you going to do yeah you've mentioned that um there's a complicated calculus going on with the countries that have uh that have nuclear weapons and what's our responsibility are you allowed to do anything you want to countries that don't have nuclear weapons that's a really tricky discussion for sure because what is US supposed to do if Russia drops a tactical nuclear weapon there's a set of options mhm none of which are good mhm and it's such a tricky moment right now because uh the things that Biden and other public figures say I feel like has a significant impact on the way this game turns off because I think mutually assured destruction is partially a game of words yeah that I I mean I believe in the power conversation of leaders talking to each other I feel like you have to have an a balance between threat and compromise and like empathy for the needs the geopolitical the economic needs of a Nation uh but also sort of respect and represent your own interest MH so it's a tricky one like how do you play the how do you play the hand what reminds me of um I don't know if you've ever heard in like evolutionary psych or evolutionary biology there are things called tit fortat strategies it kind of reminds me of that where it's like if like uh there there are a whole bunch of these little biological mechanisms where creatures will develop like socializing like tit fortat if you something bad to me I'm going to do something bad for you and then more complicated schemes will come out where it'll be like tit Tit for Tat where it's like you can make one mistake and then I'm going to get you if you do a second one or could be tit tit Tit for Tat or there could be Tit for Tat tat for tit there's like all these like back and forths where creatures kind of optimize themselves and um yeah I think something the United States did really well in terms of that kind of conversational strategy and I approved of this in the beginning was Biden was very clear about setting out like the exact level of us involvement for the war we're not going to do a fly zone there's not going to be US troops on the ground in Ukraine but we are going to send a whole bunch of money and a whole bunch of arms and a whole bunch of Intel to them and I thought he did a good job at laying out like the limitation of the US involvement while opening as much as we could in the ways we could help but the um yeah that looming threat of some sort of tactical nuclear weapon I think on the table right now is like it's going to be the annihilation of like Russian sea forces and everything but you know what happens if it continues to escalate that's like a world that nobody wants to nobody wants to be in yeah so we talked about difficult conversation and again thank you so much for reviewing the Y conversation let me ask you about Putin mhm speaking of difficult conversation so if you sit down if I sit down with somebody like Vladimir Putin or Vladimir zalinski what's the right way to have that conversation oh man we can talk about that one or we could talk about somebody more well understood through history like some like Stalin or Hitler something like that maybe that's an easier example to illustrate how to handle extremely difficult conversations yeah I mean I can handle really difficult conversations between like two people um leaders of countries though you're there's so much that you are representing in that conversation I guess the thing that would be interesting to me would be like what is Vladimir Putin's interest like what is the genuine interest that he has in the conflict because I think finding out like what is your buyin or what is your like what is the driving force keeping you here is probably the most most important thing um I think for zinski I think it's a it's quite a bit more simpler because he's he's on the defense so he defending his country and his people um for Putin I've heard all sorts of things uh you know Dugan has his writings on uh you know like the East versus the West the collapse of the West in the face of like all of the liberalism and the weird LGBT stuff that they criticize you've got the desire to like return to this like former Soviet uniones thing you've got Putin's quotes that collapse of the Soviet Union was the biggest geopolitical disaster you know of 20th century and and I guess figuring out like what ises Putin after I'm not actually sure I don't know the answer that question I know a lot of people write about it but yeah well there's a lot of answers to that question there's a lot of answers that he can give you that question so say I sit down with him for three hours and talk about it I think this is a really interesting distinction because you do do difficult conversations in the space of ideas MH but also in your stream you have I mean there's a bunch of drama going on there's there's a human psycholog is laid out MH uh in its full richness before you so to me me with leaders I think a part of the conversation has to be about the human psychology sure not like a meta conversation but like really understand what they feel what they fear who they are as a human being like as a family man as a as a person proud of their country as a person with an ego as a person who's been affected if not corrupted by power as all of us can be and likely are so all of that that gives context to then the answers about what do you want in this war because the answers about what you want in this war will be political answers of it's like it's like a game that's being played again with words and politicians are incredibly good at playing that game MH I think the deeper truth comes from understanding the human being from which those words come and I think that's what you do I don't know if you do those kinds of conversations where never talked to any country leaders so no not not not a country leader but say a controversial figure or somebody that represents a certain idea don't just talk in a space of ideas or challenge the ideas but understand who is this person how did you come to those ideas oh yeah when I've had there have been a couple of very controversial right leaning figures um so the two obviously that my stream are Lauren Southern and Nick fentz and those types of conversations initially aren't very political at all yeah it's more like like obviously we believe in very very very different things but like beliefs don't happen accidentally so how did you get to where you are those are way more personal conversations that's true is there things you regret about those conversations where you failed is there things you're proud of where you succeeded for things that I'm proud of I feel like I feel like I'm really good at attempting to understand people without judgment um that I think a lot of people feel like they can have conversations with me where they can share a lot and I'm not going to jump down their throat for them having a politically incorrect observation or for them being judgmental with somebody else or having like a feeling that's maybe not something they should have something they're embarrassed about so I think I do a really good job at that and then by extension of that I've gotten the ability to hear perspectives from so many different people that I think I can understand a lot of different perspectives um for failures of mine I mean it's always going to be on stream it'll be like I didn't push back hard enough or I didn't know like a certain fact for a conversation um these are usually the they're going to be on these like very technical grounds generally I'm pretty happy with like the direction my conversations have G on uh recently especially over like the past 6 months so your goal is to deradicalize the audience of those folks so that used to be my goal uh my goal was deradicalization now I'm kind of hoping that that's just the byproduct so the goal I think is to talk to somebody and to show they believe this because of these reasons and if you want to change people's beliefs we have to talk about the underlying reasons for why they think the things they think it's not enough to just say like that belief is bad cuz it's like well they believe it for a whole bunch of things that are true and real to them at least so you have to address all the underlying things that they believe before you can change the overlying belief so if I'm having a conversation with somebody it'll be like okay why do you feel this about that that and that okay I understand that maybe like a better way to solve that would be like this or that instead of this thing so to what degree do you have to empathize with the person's worldview versus push back that's that's always the hard one uh when I'm talking to other people it's almost always me stepping as much inside their bubble as I can I have to like live and breathe their worldview and be able to speak their worldview in order to like navigate their thoughts because my worldview is um I I don't even I'm not even using this as an insult I don't know if I am a little bit Autistic or something but when I break apart things I just want to see like study study study fact fact fact that's how my mind works for everything that's just that's what I like to see like um personal stories don't do much for me narratives don't do much for me just show me like the the data on the studies or whatever but for other people I think most brains are more human than that and they tend to see things in more kind of like uh surreal pictures that are kind of painted and the brush Strokes are way broader and you know they don't care about the itty bitty tiny fact um so if I'm talking to somebody else and I'm trying to get into their head and I'm trying to change their mind on things I'm going to be stepping into their world and I'm going to try to be working through that framework really good example might be um we'll say like uh when it comes to trans issues for minors okay 16 or 17y old needs to go on puberty blockers the way that I want that debate to play out is uh let's look at all the data let's see what are the comes uh let's see what are the processes for getting a medication and then we'll evaluate all of that and then we'll go in whatever like points more favorably but that's wholly unconvincing to most people right so as a parent if I'm having that conversation with another parent the easiest way for me to have that conversation is like hey we both have kids imagine how horrible it would be if we felt like our kids needed help and the government was trying to get between us and and their doctor in that conversation that might be how that talk plays out which I think that's a really good argument because I think there probably are times when the government should get in between it but I'll have that conversation because now I'm in a world where they understand what I'm saying I'm resonating with the way that they feel about things and I can make progress with with the way that they're kind of viewing the world because I'm talking in a language they understand so on this particular topic of trans issues is that the reason you were banned from twitch I'm not sure I don't know uh they just said hate speech but I don't use like slurs or anything so it's hard to know exactly so I think you made the claim that trans women shouldn't compete with CIS women in the women's Athletics MH can you make the this case and Can you steal man the case against it I think in your community there's a lot of trans folks who love you and there's a lot who hate you yeah and so if you can walk the tight rope of this conversation they try to steal me on both sides one of the argumentative strategies I say is that like anytime you have a conversation you should be able to argue both sides better than anybody else you know so um for the for the my side the genuine belief side um it feels like overwhelmingly all of the data is showing that trans we'll say trans women uh even after I think 3 years on some sort of like HRT or you know estrogen uh stuff they're still maintaining these advantages from their male puberty over cisgender women and if that is the case if we are going to draw these distinctions around our Sports between women and men it feels unfair to have a category inside the women's sports that are maintaining advantages that are coming from a male puberty um regardless of the amount of time they've spent on hormone replacement therapy so that that would be my argument on that side so it's unfair from a performance enhancement aspect so the same way we ban performance performance enhancing drugs that involve increasing of test testosterone in that same way would be unfair essentially yeah so what's the case uh against the yeah so the case in favor of them competing together is that realistically there's not going to be a trans Sports category uh realistically trans women aren't going to be competitive with CIS men because they've gone through these huge uh you know like hormone changes by the medication they're taking and that when we look at how sports are kind of done anyway there's a whole bunch of biological differences between people within sports categories that are determining their placement in the professional world so for instance um somebody like me is probably never going to go far in the MBA because I'm not tall enough uh I think the average height in the NBA don't doubt yourself don't doubt myself yeah I want to say it's like six six something they're huge people um or you know you look at like Michael Phelps as a classic example of a guy whose torso is like so long his body is built for swimming and I think there are some trans people that will look at that or some B advocating for this position they'll look at that they go okay realistically the way that Michael php's body um processes lactic acid the shape physiologically of his body is going to put him in a level of competition that so many men are never going to reach just because of biology how is it fair that you can have these biological outliers competing in these categories but then when we come to like sports categories with trans and CIS women you're going to take trans women and say that they can't compete against CIS women can't you also just say that they have some level of biological difference there like is it really going to be that great of a difference than what Michael Phelps has versus the average swimmer or an NBA player has versus like the average hyp male yeah do you think we're going to get into some tricky ethical territory as we start to be able to uh through biology and genetics modify the human body absolutely I feel like those things are coming sooner than uh we wanted to them to uh the uh oh man dude the a have you seen the AI art yes that's a of course I'm an AI person oh okay then yeah yeah that's a uh that's always been like uh what's going to happen when uh when robots can do art better than humans LOL like well we'll see in 20 years in 20 years in 20 years and now you have ai art winning competitions and it's funny because robots are essentially there's a robot behind you by the way a robot behind me ro oh nice um robots are really good careful what you say yeah I got it I'll be careful um that's not like one of the Chinese ones with a gun on it right oh okay hopefully not uh we we'll see depending on what you say yeah okay robots are really good at showing the limitations of the human mind in categories that we didn't believe we were limited before like I think that humans have this idea intrinsically that we have like some type of like Innovative Creative Drive that is just outside of the bounds of physical understanding and with a sophisticated enough program we see that maybe that's not actually true and that's a really scary thing philosophically to deal with because we feel like we're very special right we we own the planet we make computers and the idea that you can start to get these robots that can do things that's like okay you can do math fine okay you can do calculations fine but you can't do art that's the human stuff and then when they start to do that it's like oh shoot and that terrifies you a little bit like uh losing the human species losing control of our dominance over this Earth I don't think it's necessarily losing control of our dominance I mean I guess like a Skynet thing could come in at some point but I think it I think it more it it brings us to this really fundamental level of like what does it mean to be human what is it that we're good at um what should we be doing with technology we never really ask that question in the western world it's always the technology is like normative in that technology equals good and more technology equals better that's been like the default assumption in fact if you ask a lot of people how do you know if civilization has progressed over the past 100 or 200 years they don't say we have better relationships we um you know have longer marriages we blah blah blah they'll say technology has improved we've got crazy phones we got crazy computers and um the idea that more technology might be bad has never even crossed somebody's mind unless it's used for like a really bad thing so well it's interesting we kind of think as more and more automation is happening we're going to get more and more meaning from things like being artists and doing creative Pursuits and here is like oh shit if the art if the creative Pursuits are also being automated then what are we going to gain meaning from what are the activities from which we'll gain meaning you know my whole life I've been working on artificial intelligence systems there's been different revolutions one of them is is the is the machine learning Revolution and it's interesting to build up intuition and uh destroy that intuition about what is and isn't solvable by machines I think um for the longest time I grew up thinking go is not the game of Go is not solvable uh because my understanding of AI systems is ultimately that it's is it's fundamentally a search mechanism that is fundamentally going to be Brute Force there's no shortcuts sure like a tra like if it can't solve the traveling salesman problem it's not even going to be able to give you an approximation so most interesting problems are giant travel salesman problem and then so of course it's not going to be able to solve that and then you then uh the Deep learning Revolution made you realize holy shit these large neural network with a giant number of knobs is able to actually somehow uh uh estimate functions that can do a pretty good job of understanding deep representation of a thing whether that's a game of Go or whether it's the human natural language or if it's images and video or um audio and even actions and different video games and actions of Robotics and so on and then you realize with diffusion models and different different generative models you start to realize holy shit it can actually generate not just interesting uh representations or interesting manifestations of the representations that forms but it's able to do something that impresses humans in its creativity MH it's it's beautiful in the way we think of art as beautiful like it surprises us and makes us chuckle and makes us uh sit back in awe and all those kinds of things and yet the thing that it seems to struggle with the most is the physical world currently so that that's counterintuitive we humans think that it's um it's pretty trivial the being able to pick up a cup being able to like write with a pen like in the physical space we think that's trivial we give ourselves respect for being great artists and great uh mathematicians and all that kind of stuff and that seems to be much easier than the physical space bodies are really cool there is a um I don't know it's probably azab or something there was some science fiction writer that it had a short story and it was like an alien that had landed on Earth and it was describing our bodies from a totally alien perspective and when you think about all the things we can do it's pretty cool we can you know climb through a whole multitude of environments we can exist at a multitude of temperatures we can manipulate things um just with our hands and how you know the way that we can interact with things around us and yeah we're very capable on like a physical level even though like you said we think about ourselves like oh well human beings have really big brains and we do we're really intelligent as well but yeah our bodies are pretty cool too and it's a fascinating hierarchical biological system like um that we made up of a bunch of different like living organisms that all don't know about the big picture of our body MH and it's all functioning its own little local world and it's doing its thing but together it has a it forms a super resilient system all of that comes from a very uh compressed encoding of what makes a human you start with the DNA and it builds up from a single cell to a giant organism mhm I mean that and because of the DNA through the evolution process you can constantly create new humans and new living organisms that adapt to the environment like that resilience to the physical world it seems like running the whole earth over again the whole evolutionary process over again is uh might be the only way to do it so to create a robot that actually jobs is as resilient to the dynamic world might be a really difficult problem possibly well I was going to say like in a programming environment you can do things on time scales that are impossible in the real world right like the benefit to Ai and computers is computationally they can compute so much data so quickly um whereas on human timetables we have to wait when you talk about Evolution um you know it's generation after generation after generation you know maybe in a virtual environment that could be simulated and then those changes Could Happen a lot quicker well that's not a human time scale but you have to look at Earth at a Quantum as a quantum mechanical system the computation is happening super fast this is a giant computer doing a giant simulation so just cuz for us humans it's slow there's like trillions of organisms involved in you Destiny being you sure but the next iteration of like from Human to human even if on the quantum level there's a lot of stuff going on you talk about like um like changes in DNA for instance right like that's happening from a generation to generation time scale like in a virtual environment that could theoretically happen well it already is there's like protein folding like huge cloud computing probably ml stuff that's like working on doing all that stuff and it'll run like trillions and trillions of simulations you know every second and stuff maybe not every second but still slower than the actual protein folding much slower the that's for the problem of solving protein fold folding uh to estimate the 3D structure but the actual body does the the actual protein folding way faster so like we're the question is can we shortcut the simulation of human evolution try to figure out how to build up an organism without simulating all the details cuz we have to simulate all the details of biology we're screwed we don't have oh true we'd have to put something in a pond and then watch it for that might be way to do it that's what the universe most likely is it's a kind of simulation created by a teenager in their basement to to try to see what happens it's a it's a computer game that might be the most efficient way to create interesting organisms but within the system it's perhaps possible to create other robots that will be of use and will entertain us in the way that other humans entertain us and that's a really interesting of course problem but it's surprising how difficult it has been to create systems that operate in the physical world and operate in that physical world in a way that's safe to humans and interesting to humans MH cuz there's also the human factor the human robot interaction to me that's like the most interesting problem to figure out how to do that well and uh so you musk and others Boston Dynamics have worked on legged robots so I I really care about legged robots those are super interesting how to make them such that they're able to operate successfully in a dynamic environment it's super tricky they're like they're like the dumbest of dogs speaking of which there's a dog barking outside I it's it's really tricky to create those kinds of organisms that live in a in in the human world then again if more and more of us move into the digital world so you stream a lot like part of who you are exists in the digital space mhm the fact that you have a physical representation also maybe more and more will become not important I hope that's the case cuz I bought a lot of stock in meta and man it's down a lot met met of the company is there some degree like can you can you can you look at yourself like Steven the physical meat vehicle and then the destiny this digital space like digital Avatar do do you sense that in a certain way you're the digital Avatar I've always tried to keep my onstream personality as genuine as possible so they're one and the same to me I don't really view them as two separate entities so but I mean I always view myself with Steven the real life person My Destiny is my online name but no but because so many your social network has established in the digital space like so many people know you through the digital space can there be can we swap on another person that looks like you and like in the AI system and then that entity known as Destiny will continue existing it must be like there must be some level of sophistication that could emulate a human brain I would imagine right probably the text's not there yet but well the question is what's the level of sophistication of the audience that would recognize that something has changed like it's the touring test yeah how hard is it to trick your audience your your large audience of fans that watch your streams that when you swap out in the AI that emulates you that nothing has changed and the question is do you have to really simulate so much of the human brain for that I don't think so probably not so I mean like you said uh a lot of political discours is just walking down the tree M together so you can probably emulate a lot of that discussion yeah it would depend on if you're doing old data sets and you're training on that I'm having conversations about abortion and your cran and vaccines I imagine it could do it for quite a while the only thing that would be weird is when novel issues pop up then you probably need a more sophisticated uh resemblance of the inner brain right you you have to keep keep training on the internet so how the language models and that's the most incredible breakthroughs is the language models you just have to keep retraining the system on on Reddit which is actually what a lot of it is trained on which is hilarious I do think it's really interesting that like kind of like funny problems like the trolley problem that we can kind of work through our normative ethical systems on are now like real questions like if you're driving a Tesla and it's an autopilot and you're going to hit somebody but it can swerve and hit somebody else like what what ought the system do like we went very quickly from fun kind of like project in philosophy class to we need to solve this for insurance purposes like as quickly as possible it's kind of interesting to think about I actually have uh I'll bring up the try problem with you later it's there's a fascinating version of it hilarious okay uh let's let's return to your low point oh yeah uh you started playing video games that was a lucky break you uh you did text based ones that was a lucky break cuz you gotten to be pretty good at learning and then you started thinking about going to college and so on what happened next I mean I went to like a prep school so you kind of have to go to college after that's like the point right I I was also Millennial they all of us had to go to college that's always what they told us so um my life was kind of uh it's hard to describe I didn't really think much of the future I was just kind of enjoying the dayto day cuz everything in my life was pretty weird uh both my parents had moved to Florida by the time I was 16 17 I was living with my grandma I was working I had a girlfriend moved out uh we got a place did College uh by the time I got into college I had transitioned from working at McDonald's to I was like a working in a casino restaurant basically and I was really good at that job a high level of patience for drunk people insane people and I was doing music in school cuz I've really grown to love music and my kind of thought processes was my thought process was I can do music as a hobby I guess unless I get really good and maybe I can make money with that but otherwise I love music I'm okay going to school for music getting good at it and then just doing that on the side and then my main job would kind of be this career I was building at the casino and basically the trying to balance personal life plus graveyard shift six ER weeks at a casino and then a full-time music degree was not possible for me and eventually I had to drop school after I think it was like 3 years and after I dro school to maintain my Casino job um after a few months I got fired from my Casino job so i' essentially just thrown away like the past like 3 or four years of my life why'd you get fired from the casino job I heard there's a story behind that yeah there's a story basically I was just really dumb when it came to understanding corporate politics and I this is funny because the same attitude kind of followed me into the streaming world my thought process has kind of always been um that like as long as I'm really good at what I do I should be Untouchable if I'm really good you can't do anything to me I don't have to play any dumb games or whatever and at the casino I think I was the youngest it was an originally shiftly than supervisor position at the casino and when I started to get my own shifts there were problems that I would run into on graveyard shift because of carryover from the swing shift remember one of these problems was underneath the soda machine they weren't cleaning it properly and fruit flies were showing up and I my the manager came in one morning and she was like uh hey what's going on with the machine and I told like listen I can't do I can't take everything from swing shift and do everything at grap shift I can't do this they need to Fig figure out their stuff better or I need more employees it's not possible for me and she's like well did you tell anybody else yeah I complained to the supervisor on the swing shift all the time and she told me if you're not getting the answer that you like then it's your responsibility to email the next person up and I was like oh okay that's interesting and some months went on and I ran into more problems because on graveyard here's how I don't know if it's everywhere but morning shift is the easiest and that's when you're the most overstaffed because that's when all the VPS are in and that's when all the managers are there and everybody blah blah blah swing shift is the most challenging that's what your highest flow of customers is you're also decently staffed there but there's a lot of stuff going on and graveyard nobody cares at all about you they don't give you any employees you might get swamped you might not who cares make sure it's clean for day shift that's the only thing that matters a quick question for sort of clarification so this is 24-hour 24hour Dino yeah Casino yeah so it's the din in a casino oh by the way I had an amazing moment at Din in a casino recently it's a special place A din casino is a place of magic there's a lot of I don't I say magic but there's a lot of other worldly stuff going on there's characters there's and uh the I had an interaction with the waitress that was the sweetest waitress in the world and it was just like I don't know made me feel less alone in this cruel world of ours uh so graveyard begins when for me my shift was 10 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. or sometimes I get called in early so it be 8:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m. that's uh no love for that shift no especially not trying to do school at the same time absolutely not um but yeah basically long story short I ran into a problem with my where I didn't have enough employees on my shift VPS were coming in in the morning they're like hey the diner is kind of dirty and I'm like you've cut all my employees past 400 a.m. like on some nights I'm literally cooking and doing front of house like all on my own like I can't do this and my manager Pam told me well you got to figure it out and so I remembered her advice so I emailed the VP of food and beverage and I cced her and I said I'm not getting the help I need on my restaurant now I didn't know at the time that I was basically completely throwing her under the bus because of that email but I retroactively when I look back on things or retrospect I see that was the moment that I got like marked for deletion and I didn't really understand it even though I heard terminology for papering somebody out the door but after that point I started to get written up for like a lot of little random things like I'll come like I missed one day of work in my three years at the casino and I started get written up for like sh up like one or two minutes late that's kind of weird that's whatever um or written up for random ways about filing paperwork and then eventually there came a situation with another employee where they were it's complicated has to like call out stuff but basically they wanted to come or wanted to call out and I told them if they called out they were going to get fired because they were at like 10 points they were at nine points and 10 points is firing blah blah blah Pam told me uh you can tell her that she's going to get a point but you can't tell her she's going to get fired I don't know what that meant and then I told her that if you call out you're going to get you know you're fucked you're going to get fired um or you're going to be had 10 points and then I got called in early like 3 days later and Pam was like uh you inappropriately communicated with an employee because you said the f- word in a text message and I'm like really there's no shot and she's like well you also tried to fire the employee and I was like no I told her she was going to get 10 points she's like well you use the f word I'm like this is insane and uh I didn't just cuz I was such a such a high performing employee like there's no way I'm getting fired and then I did and I was like yeah cash out my 401k and moped for like 3 months because I they thrown away school for this casino job and then I got fired from this job that like yeah nobody believed I got fired it was just insane yeah so if you look back if you were allowed to not just to look back to your own memory but actually watch yourself like somebody you record a video that whole time do you think you would be surprised you would notice some things like potentially of not having a self-awareness not having like social like a Civility and social etiquette that's played in the human relations yeah absolutely so is that is that at the core of it essentially yeah I think so I mean that follows me even to this day there's a lot of um I don't know if you're recording or not but when we spoke early about like meta conversations I have to think a lot sometimes about meta conversations because the way that I want to drive a conversation will sometimes be way different than what is like the best way to have a conversation whereas I just want to like go really hard like some itty bitty like some idiosyncrasy some Factor figure whatever but that's not like the human conversation I need to have you know yeah so you got fired SL left that job uh and that took you to the the job that would be the lowest point yeah there was a huge downgrade in Pay I went from getting like I think at the casino cuz I worked so much overtime I was getting like 2250 an hour on all my overtime Fifth and this was back in 2008 2009 as like a college student like was amazing pay um the I had benefits like everything was good and then the carpet cleaning was like I was probably getting my paycheck like every other week was maybe $500 bucks or $1,000 and I'm working like 13-day stretches like I have every other Sunday off and it's so many hours like I have to show up at the shop at like 700 or 6 and then I go home at like 8 or 9 depending on what my jobs are throughout the day you doing uh businesses or residential or what are you doing everything everything are you working for a company that is cover cleaning or you okay so like there's a schedule thing you have to go to it and so on yeah B but so like this is why the schedule would suck cuz sometimes I'd show up at I I think we had to be in the shop at I think it was 7:00 a.m. we show up at the shop at 7:00 a.m. first job might be at 8 or 9 but that job might be like a 1 hour job so I might show up at 7: a.m. and have a job from 8:30 to 9:30 then my next job might not be from till like say 11:00 so from 8:30 to 9:30 I'll do one job um and then I've got to job from like 11: to 12 or something then I might have like a decent job from like 5: to 8 but like my whole day is destroyed and I'm I'm doing like three smallest jobs so I'm getting like 30 bucks maybe for being in the shop or you know on my job for like 10 or 11 hours and it's just like horrible so you're somebody that seems to be extremely good at thinking and conversation and so have a bit of an ego perhaps uh in in both the negative and the positive sense of that word was there some aspect of working on McDonald's and then working at the casino and working for the um as a carpet cleaner the that was humbling no never um I had a the ego burned bright through it all the well or no you can push back on the ego yeah no I I understand I totally get what you mean um I had a really close friend growing up whose name was Chris and I think we probably met when he was we were like four or five I think he lived behind me and I grew up with him and I'd always been kind of an outsider to the world that I was in once I got to high school for sure um because all of those kids were incredibly wealthy you know Corvettes and must things when they turned 16 it was a prep school and I was doing the they had like a work study program there where you could stay after school from 2:30 to 5:00 every day to kind of like work to pay for your tuition so I've been working like throughout all of high school I got another job at McDonald's when I was 18 worked at the casino like I had always been doing that kind of work I never really viewed it as like beneath me or anything it's not like I I don't have like a family of doctors or lawyers or anything and then me and my other friend the Chris guy we'd always make fun of everybody else for being kind of like uh you know like preppy kids and everything so so there is a there's some pride to that sort of hard work yeah I guess a little bit Yeah because yeah looking especially my dad like the solution to every problem was just throw more hours of work at it basically so that was always my yeah goto and I never yeah what was psychologically the low point I think psychologically the low point was that um as I'm doing this carpet cleaning job uh driving around my city there's like this feeling of I guess for a lot of people it's probably college but there's a feeling when you're in high school that everything is like so exciting and the whole world is kind of in front of you and there are a trillion trillion different branching Paths of possibilities and you know even through high school you're thinking like am I going to be a doctor or a lawyer or can I join the MBA or can I do this or that there's all these things in front of you and when I I I especially felt it when I was doing these carbet cleaning jobs and um I think it was in the fall I'd be outside some of these houses and I just kind of look around and I'd recognize a lot of these neighborhoods that i' drive around with friends in or i' you know be walking through I did I ran cross country some of them i' be running through these neighborhoods and it was just kind of like this feeling of looking around and it was like when I was here in the past this was like kind of like a transitionary phase of my life where I'm doing this and it's so fun and exciting and then I'm going to move on to something else and it's going to be fun and exciting and awesome and then like you know two years later my whole life is collapsed like I'm in a house that I can't afford anymore my ex that I hate is pregnant with my kid and I have no money I've got no upward Mobility I failed College I my job is horrible like just every single like this is like my all of those the the wave function had collaps into one thing and that one thing was the worst thing that could have possibly been at the time for me yeah like everything was gone and horrible so yeah that was the feeling I had at the time do you have a contemplate suicide I thought about thinking about it but I've just never been that kind of person so I mean basically there a way to escape from the hardship something that I'm so incredibly lucky I don't know why or how I'm just going to chalk it up to biology I've always had really high mental Baseline like depression and all of that there have been a few short stins I've dealt with it past 30 because I did a lot of drugs but um other than that my mental Baseline is just so high and even in the carbet cleaning days um like if you man the videos might still be there I think on my old YouTube channel channel where I'll be like playing Starcraft when I first started get into streaming and I'll be calling up customers like this is Steve from Guaranteed Clean we had to move your job back 1 hour is it okay if I show up instead of 2:30 and then I hang up it's like all right guys we got three more games and I was like let's go like stuff that so my my Baseline has always been like really high for mental functioning so even in low Point there's that you had strength is there is there anything you can give by way of advice from people that For Whom the wave function collapses as it does for many of us like holy fuck the the world is not full of opportunity and you're kind of a failure like I've I've I've been there yeah I don't know it's rough because like I usually ask for compassion from people that have it better off because like once you're down there like the only reason I say I got lucky but it wasn't even really lucky like or it was lucky but it was more lucky it wasn't just lucky that I got into streaming it was lucky that I was into computers at an early age it was lucky that I played video games at an early age it was lucky that all the tech came up at exactly that right point in time um like I was a pretty smart guy but it was definitely uh a preparation means opportunity and that opportunity was like at the exact precise moment of my life if anything had gone differently then I would just PE cleaning carpets today so so in the many worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics this is like one out of like there's many many Stevens that are just still carpet cleaning mhm and they're full of pain and resentment yeah the the one piece of advice that I give and I hate that I have to push back against all these crypto Bros and everybody online for decently intelligent people that are successful I've never heard anybody give a contradiction to this maybe you will you can tell me if you disagree I always look at kids in high school and I'm like just try a little bit harder like 30 minutes a night if you don't study just do 30 minutes just do a little bit more um it is you are laying the foundation for the rest of your life and you can't appreciate it in high school and college but oh my god when you get out everything in your life is so much easier you have probably more responsibility over the direction of your life when you're like 13 14 years old than you ever will once you're like 25 and older because this is like when you're determining the foundations that everything's going to be built on yeah 100% so first of all it does seem that the liberating aspect of being young is like anything you learn so working hard at learning something will pay off in like nonlinear ways like you said with the video games I feel like so like people who are like I hate school all right well fine but find something where you're challenging yourself you're growing you're learning you're learning a skill you're learning about a thing of course you know you could push back and say well there's some trajectories that might not be productive like if you spend the entirety of your teen years playing I don't know League of Legends game you have love and hate relationship with no just a hate and hate relationship okay well we'll talk about I think you have a LoveHate relationship with hate in general we'll just in love okay we we'll try to DEC complexify that one uh I think in general just investing yourself fully with passion it really does pay off but that said also school I feel like doesn't get enough credit like High School in particular middle school and high school because it's education if I I think if if you're especially if you're lucky to have good teachers but honestly I haven't mostly the textbooks themselves were good teachers it's a one chance in life you have to really explore a subject fuck grades like getting good grades is at tension I would say with actual learning that is true but just get a biology textbook and to explore ideas in biology and a yourself to be um inspired by the beauty of it to yeah I don't know I I think that really really really pays off and you never get a chance to do that again and maybe not even textbooks like reading straight up reading I think I think if you read this is the one time in life you get a chance to read really read like read a book a day read you you could really invest you can really grow by reading I mean you know mus all those guys talk about it like it's very very rare that you meet like a dumb person who reads a lot I don't know if that's ever happened in my life yeah dumb or not successful and it's and the cool thing is it seems like the reading this like investment the reading you do early on in high school pays off way more than the reading you do later uh so like the the the really influential reading is uh is during those high school years because you're basically learning from others the mistake they've made the solutions to problems you you're basically learning the shortcuts to life like whatever the hell you want to do music read from the best people uh that the music theory like learn music theory learn uh read biographies about jazz musicians Blues musicians see their like see all the mistakes see what they did see the shortcuts if you want to do podcasting read about other podcasts if you want to do streaming read about other other streamers physicists and so on and I feel like you figure out all the mistakes and you get to a short through life because most people show up to college without having done that and now you get a chance to shortcut your way past them mhm yeah 100% I'm I'm going but nobody really teaches you that they're like go to school this from this time to that time that you're shut up you this is just what you do eat your broccoli I think is like there's two huge problems one is um Now That I'm Older cuz you you know you don't know anything as a kid you can't really criticize adults as a kid cuz you're a kid you're agist if I mean I am super ages as I get older I get even more ages you there are a lot of people argue like man dude you're really 22 aren't you I can tell every word you say there seeps of like 22 year oldness but that's okay I love that for you yeah no I could just say cuz you mentioned this so uh your wife is a fellow streamer Molina you mentioned that this is a source of fights for the two of you that and I could just feel that there is truth to what you're saying which is like all right you're saying that because you're 22 just wa until you're 25 and you won't be saying that anymore now that is the most annoying thing for people to hear you can't ever say that of course because it's actually usually true be because we do go through phases in life and you can understand that most things are phases so just in general you can say just just wait just wait you won't see this you won't feel this way again I could say that to you you could say that to yourself just wait whatever you're feeling like just wait in 5 10 Years it'll be a different person and you will laugh at the things you take seriously now that that they're causing you pain now all that kind of stuff but people hate hearing that anyway absolutely I think the joke that I always say is that like if I could literally step into a time machine and I could come back out and see myself as a 17-year-old and I could say hey I'm literally you from the future you see the time machine and I would look at me and I would see the time machine and I would give myself the best advice in the world to be the most successful person I would ignore all of it even knowing it came for myself like this guy sold out this D doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about like nah I'll figure it out better like he must have made some that's what I would think is a 7 even I knew it was myself from the future I would just 100% never believe it and knowing that is very frustrating but I keep that in mind when I deal with younger people that's why like I never I always say on stream when I'm talking to like there's been stuff with like sneako there's another girl on my stream called lab like when I see the way the I see the mistakes they're making often times because I've made all of these mistakes sometimes in the most public and horrible fashion ever um but I'm never like a mentor I'm not going to sit there and like tell you like oh do this or that or that or that cuz like I don't know if you're going to listen to me and I don't want to cond you and you know you figure your stuff out I'll be here if you want to talk about it but yeah I there was a one of the stories there was a company that didn't work with me because I I was very adamant on defending like very radical Notions about language and racial slurs and everything when I was like 22 or whatever and there's a company and they said well we don't want to work with this guy for an event and after they had said that I written an article on my website called the company was gigabyte they make motherboards I said fuck gigabyte in the ass that was the title to my article and it was like well if they don't want to work with me I'm going to blow them up and never do anything ever with them again and it was just like like looking back on it now obviously as a as an older person like hey you need to pump the brakes and chill you're destroying yourself but um yeah as a young person it's like yeah you're 22 of course you think that you can say whatever and do whatever and as long as you're good at what you're doing You've Got the Whole World behind you and yeah jeez well let's go there you have a history of using offensive language like the RW the nword including the nword with a hard R uh calling women bitches talking about rape in nonchalant way mhm um what part of that do you regret and what part of that do you not language is very complicated um when it comes to stuff relating to slurs uh there's been like a whole trajectory of feelings on everything related to language so I for you personally and for the internet as a whole yeah I don't care about the internet almost for me personally um in my early 20s I'll say like 22 23 I think probably when I first started streaming my feeling is that any word is just a word and if it hurts you that's your fault take responsibility for yourself um this probably came from my background of being like a really independent person so that's just kind of like the mind that I had for everything and there were basically there were like a collection of experiences that I had that As I Grew I started to realize like okay well I feel differently about some of these words depending on the context and I can see how they can affect other people depending on the context so as I've kind of like grown I think I've developed a more sophisticated understanding of how different words are used and how they affect people whether they like it or not and more importantly whether I like it or not and that words can even if I don't want it to be they can be a vehicle for emboldening certain types of ideas that I don't want to embolden and yeah that's kind of been the whole like growth I've been lucky that in the time that I came up on the internet I was able to learn these lessons because if I was trying to learn those same lessons today I would have been completely destroyed because I had insane views on language like 10 years ago we could talk about the past we could talk about the present let's talk about the past first so how do you deal with the fact that there's videos of you in the past saying the nword including the nword with a hard R so generally and what's the context can you give me like in your memory what what would be the context usually when I lay out this defense it's not because I wouldn't have used the nword um generally whenever I said the NW it was usually an example of like this is something that like a racist person would say I don't think I've ever on the internet I don't think I've ever called anybody like the NW with a hard R um not because I wouldn't have but just because it wasn't in my vocabulary I played uh RTS real time strategy and we use the the F slur for gay people that's the one and I use that one a ton and I've called people that a ton in the past um so I should actually just as a small tangent yeah go for it and this is what I'd like to explore with you mhm there's a ruthlessness to the language in uh the gaming world and there's different communities they have different flavors of language of hate speech essentially and and uh there's also a humor to it mhm which really bothers me in a dark way that I haven't been able to really think through because humor seems to be a kind of catalyst for hate it seems to normalize hate like uh you say basically it's like Louis C K says a lot of edgy things MH but you take something Louis C K says and do it in a non-funny way and do it over and over and over and keep uh increasing the hatefulness of it the vitrio and somehow you find yourself like Alice and Wonderland in a world full of hate where there is no good and evil it's all the same in fact the good is to be mocked and the evil is to be celebrated for the humor of it basically not taking the ideas of evil seriously and I don't know what it it reveals something about human nature that you can let go the moral relativism that can happen when you do that kind of stuff at the same time I'm a fan of dark humor when done well anyway for people who are not familiar I just wanted to mention that some of the worst hate speech that ends in LOL happens in gaming communities yeah the um and that's where you come from in certain part so a lot of people don't remember this or don't know this cuz they're younger but way back in the day in the uh late '90s early mid 2000s the internet the way that online kind of like shit talk worked was you were just trying to ramp up to the most insanely edgy crazy stuff you could say to like provoke a reaction um have you ever heard of something called The Aristocrats that it's like a joke the joke oh yeah the joke yeah there's a movie on it yeah okay basically every single like shit talk back and forth on the internet was like that like what is the most increasingly depraved and back then you didn't get banned for slurs or anything on any of these chat rooms so it was just like an insane world to walk in into and I was fully 100% a part of a product of and a contributor to that world so that probably still goes on on the internet in some way and that probably still goes on in the internet in a maybe more pacified way only in darker parts of the internet I'd say for the most part most well compared to back then compared to 20 years ago the internet is way cleaned up now there are still going to be boards you can go on or parts of the internet where you see that type of humor but not nowhere near as mainstream like back then you could open your mic on Xbox Live and hear some insane stuff when that first started nowhere near what you'd hear today although yeah but there's still elements of escalation that happen that just seems to be part of human nature on the internet the because we don't get the feedback of actually hurting people directly so the the the trolling like for the ls you you'll do like what like you will still escalate within the bounds you're just saying that there's more bounds now on Reddit there's more bounds and so on so the you know there's moderators that kind of yell at you that ban you and so on if you cross those bounds but overall that basic human instinct to escalate uh especially under the veil of anonymity is still there I don't know it's dark it's dark yeah just there's a lot of different ways to look at it and there's different ways you can break that art like for instance like you mentioned dark humor and you say that like uh sometimes dark humor is funny and sometimes it's not I think that it's really important to dig into and figure out like why certain things are funny Give an example yeah go it's from your subreddit oh boy no that made me laugh and and I felt wrong about it oh no so this is uh I I already know what this is yeah yeah so this is a trolley problem to me it connects because I I think about the it keeps because I worked on autonomous vehicles the trolley problem the philosophical thought experiment keeps brought up a lot you know when AI is part of making the decision do I kill three people here or five people here then thei makes that decision how do you do that calculus and this this particular there's um there's a deep so it's satire that reveals some kind of flaw in society I feel like that's what that's what dark humor does successful dark humor does and I don't know flaw H I feel like certain there's a certain brand of dark humor and I think the reason I think the reason is why it's good or or or why it is good humor I think is because it I don't think it necessarily reveals a flaw sometimes I feel like it reveals like a kind of virtue I think like if you look at this particular thing yeah can I explain what we're go for it we're just listening uh the title of the red post is you know what to pick uh and it says uh five people are going to die either way but if you flip the lever the trolley will do a sick fucking Loop first and also the top comment is a question saying which I think is also part of the doc humor that's successful can I get the gender and ethnic backgrounds of the groups first and the top answer is both groups are each comprised of five white orphaned CIS male heavy meth users who are consistently in and out of drug rehab all who identifies as right-wing extremists humor is so it's such a sophisticated thing that we engage in humor is like really complicated um but I would argue that like hopefully the humor here shows the virtue of like this is obviously horrible but that's kind of why it's funny it's funny because it's such a horrible question to ask like do we kill five people in a boring way or in a really ENT any way and it's like that's really that's really and then when you ask even more like what are the ethnic backgrounds it's like that's even worse to say that you know so I feel like that's like the type of there's a way that you can engage with dark humor where it's like oof like it's funny because it's so wrong and so taboo and we all know that it's wrong and taboo and that's kind of where the shared laugh comes from so for me the question that asking the the diversity question is a sophisticated way of revealing the absurdity of asking about diversity when it's talking about human life oh interesting cuz the way that I took that was I think it reveals the absurdity of how people will weigh different ethnic backgrounds so differently when it comes to value of human life like I'm actually thinking of that in terms of like a an immigration related question where people are really keen and quick to dehumanize like black or brown people so like the question is like well if five of them are brown and five are white well I know which one I'm going to you know pull the lever for that's how I read that but it's sterzing that aspect yeah exactly yes of course yeah but that that's what I mean that that's the flaw to me at least it showed that Humanity or social networks that are easy to be outraged and love the outrage and the chaos that Twitter and social networks will pull that lever MH like they would they would always try to maximize the fun and there's like a there's a sick aspect to all the atrocities all the tragedies that happen in the world that we kind of always lean towards the um the outrageous narrative weaved around it the yeah the the one that leads to to sort of the most clicks to the most uh attention to the most outrage to all that all that kind of so that that's almost like a a satire of society when they are faced with tragedy they will maximize trying to think of a word that's not fun but entertainment maximize the entertainment yeah this is a big criticism I give especially to conservative crowds um you know left laning people everybody doesn't I don't like when people blame the media for the state of the media today I very much believe that everything in society is a feedback loop and that if you're really unhappy with the state of the media I think that the media is a good reflection for what people want to see because there is a room right now in the United States where somebody could start a company where all they do is completely factual reporting they don't have a political slant and they're not giving you these like sensationalist narratives or stories and that Media Company would fail in two weeks because people don't want to see that generally people really want to see the like show me the guy that really believes in what I say that calls the other guy an idiot the guy that are screaming on TV or on the radio like this is what I really want um and people will engage in that and that feedback loop will continue for generations and then all of a sudden people like why is the media so biased why is the media driving so many narratives it's like what do you mean this is exactly what you want to see and that's that's frustrating for me that's one of my big kind of when I defend establishments or when I talk about like the interplay between Citizen and and all these institutions we have that the institutions are very much a reflection of the population at least in Democratic societies and I think people very much try to elude the personal responsibility or the country's responsibility to why some of them look the way that they do but that takes us back to the nword with a hard R sure why for the particular examples that I was giving for the particular conversations that I was having if you're going to have challenging conversations around certain words I think you should probably be able to say them otherwise it feels really ridiculous to me that's like do you still believe that um for yes and not like calling people those words but in having conversations about those words I would say that I still believe that yeah but don't you think as you said that using those words actually gives motivation and strength to people who have hate in their hearts I think depending on the context of what's going on um I think that that's going to be a big driver in terms of how people are going to perceive or take it so in a conversation about the n-word I don't think I would normally say the N word we would just talk about the word much the same way that like in um like say like in a movie like in Jango people use the nword should that be censored in that movie or in the context of that movie is it being employed in a way where these aren't good people you're not supposed to like them and that's what the audience walks away with yeah but that context is different than conversation it feels like in conversation you using that word normalizes it and that normalizing that word is going to make it easier for people who use that word in a hateful way to use it same with the FW the the F slur if you use that casually and normalize it in a way that's not hateful you use it in a way that's not hateful but you the side effect is that it normalizes it then people who do use it in a hateful way will be more likely to use it therefore mathematically looking at the equation of the number of times the nword or the FW is used throughout the world it increases the number of times it's used in a hateful way yeah I think that human being and you're part of that problem Stephen don't I don't agree I understand I understand the thought process um but I don't know if using certain words within different contexts is going to necessarily normalize like the hateful use of that word um that is an argument that I've heard people use somebody will say like okay well hold on that should never be used ever because by virtue of you normalizing it even in an inoffensive environment you increase the proclivity for people to use it in a potentially more offensive environment and my argument is always that like no I don't think that crossover exists but if you did want to take that argument and maybe you do feel this way I think that you get really problematic when you run into communities that do use certain words that people would say well they should be allowed to do it so for instance if you think that any utterance of the nword at all is highly problematic and might increase hatred then like the entire rap industry has to dramatically change the way that they engage with the n-word and obviously a lot of people that criticize people's use of the nword are going to turn to rppers and say well you guys can't say it either no it's who I mean it's who uses the nword that's what it's not so it's not just the word it's the it it it is context dependent uh but I would say that you as a white person having conversations the context there is the kind that would lead to any increase in hate do you think the nword should be censored in the dictionary no and I believe there's a Wikipedia page on it and it's not censored uh yeah I don't I think it should be in the dictionary I think the context of casual conversation like like I said I just believe that on the internet having humor having fun conversations as you have on your streams that leads to the normalization of the word without any educational value without I think I would I think I would agree with that no sorry so there's a difference between F slur and nword and both I think should not be used in a fun way but the FW was used in a fun way for a longest time for sure and I I I'll tell you something that bothers me about your streams now your your streams in basically every other stream is the the Casual use of the RW oh the ableism yeah I don't know if it's about the abble I don't even know listen it's complicated I'm not like virtue signaling here ableism isn't virtue signal I mean it's a legitimate yeah like I get emails from fans that say like hey like I deal with this particular issue every time you use this word it kind of feels like you're attacking me like just like so it's not it's a valid concept yeah it's just something Cuts wrong for me m like for for example I'm not bothered by I am bothered by the excessive use of the word fuck okay but not in the same way that moderate use of the word fuck what is it I'm curious in when somebody calls somebody an RW what is it that what is the feeling that you get that makes you feel bad about it it signals to me that you don't give a damn about people who are struggling in way that you are not struggling like that that signals to me like um about the experience of others do you think that there are there other words also that could convey like a similar feeling to you or why because it feels like you've drawn a pretty special circle around cuz like I imagine I call oh this guy's you're an uneducated dumb fucker you're a nit wicker like those wordsa don't feel it that Circle keeps changing which you can which is fine it does and I I think that's what the the whole point with the culture so I'm trying to feel my feeling is a kind of uh you know I'm a human being that exists in a social context that we're all evolving that language together and just feels wrong like you know word bitch for example it really B like I've I've heard on your streams and in general calling a woman a stupid bitch really bothers me MH but it's not just the word bitch it's context like for example me personally I'm speaking to me personally like badass bitch is is different than stupid bitch bad or something is different than yeah of course way different sure I think it speaks to a bigger sense of Civility and respect for human beings that are not like you that's what that's that's the feeling that I'm bothering so I guess what what I'm trying to say here is um just because people speak in this kind of way in the gaming world and and streams doesn't mean that you like a lot of people look up to you it doesn't mean young people especially doesn't mean that you don't have the responsibility to sort of stand alone from the crowd because you're somebody that values the power of effective discourse MH and to be effective discourse there's some level of Civility so you can be the sort of the beacon of Civility in that world versus giving into to the the derogatory words cuz like you have to you have to lift people out of that world out of the muck of um what I would say is like drama in in in effective discourse like I think that's one of your missions right is like to inspire the world through conversation through debate through effective discourse yeah so I I guess I'm just calling you out that I I think using our word for me personally as a fan that that believes in your mission it just makes you look ineffective and bad and uninspiring to young people that look up to you cuz those young people are going to use those words that you're using and they'll do it much less effectively this the problem yeah I guess the challenge is always just like finding the line like yeah my my vocabulary shifted dramatically from even even from like two or three years ago I think my vocabulary shifted quite a bit as we've like we've kind of gotten rid of some words and some things have kind of coming out um the RW is one that has kind of gone out and come back and go out and come back that one we've definitely gone back and forth on I know there are different thoughts about it in different communities on the internet this is I mean I'm just telling you yeah for me it cuts and I'm not a social justice Warrior type it cuts pretty hard what you're saying is I'm going to lose a subscriber if I'm no it's not subscriber I just I actually have to empathize harder because I'm like maybe this is not a very good person that's what I feel like if you're so carelessly using that word then maybe you're not actually thinking deeply about the suffering in the world like to be a student if human nature you really have to think about other humans and other experiences that are unlike your own yeah of course and so that's the sense I get but at the same time you're you're also like the grandpa let me ages who's trying to be cool with the young kids so a lot of the reason young kids look up to you is like you also know the language of the internet yeah but I mean it doesn't that's not an excuse to use words that we think shouldn't be used I guess the question that I that I would have because it's always a struggle and to some extent it's kind of happened is let's say that like 3 years ago I would have said I'm no longer saying the artwor that's just I'm just going to get rid of that in my vocabulary like is there a chance that today we would be having a conversation about like why do you call people dumb fucks like is that really appropriate like does this attack at the core of like somebody's like level of intelligence education opportunities in life like is that worth you you don't think so I think that's a as the kids say cope you really think so think because because the words have definitely moved in a way where it's like this was okay now it's not this is okay now it's not so you're standing your ground by using listen you could you you could you could but I think it's better to use those words if you want to defend the ground words stand on to use them rarely and deliberately versus how you currently use them which is to express an emotion like you I'm going to be honest you use our word not when you're at your best true and so that's not that's generally that could be true for a lot of swearing too though but yeah I know what you mean no but like you you know that our word is offensive you know and there's part of it is like the the you tell yourself that like you're still kind of fighting political correctness by using it a little bit when you say it no I don't think so I think I'm try I'm trying to think in terms of like where is The Virtue where like there's a whole bunch of arguments for why some words are okay some words aren't okay or whatever and I try to like think more along those lines rather than but um like there's going to be like a lot of phrases where like if the r word has come out the conversation is over like I know that like things my brain is shut down the person I'm talking to but there's like there's a lot of words also in terms of like like if you ever hear me say like fucking moron in a debate it's like it's done like this conversation is over there's no way that anything productive is happening past that point I think fucking moron is not I think it's ineffective it's not civil but it's not it doesn't bother me in the way is it's basically when you speak in a way that I know there's a group that's going to be hurt by that not only do I think about the hurt that group experiences I think of you as a lesser intellectual like as a lesser person who's thinking about the world what bothers me the most is just what kind of um mindset that inspires in young in young people or especially when you're a public figure and a lot of people look up to you so I definitely don't think sort of this idea the r word is not the battleground of expanding the Overton window of discourse okay like I I don't think it'll lead to dumb fuck being cancelled two years later unless that word is hurting people's experience which I don't foresee that happening I think legitimately our word and F slur and calling women bitches it context matters here too like of course but just the way I've heard you use it it is not it's from emotion and it's from frustration and It ultimately is rooted in disrespect like I don't I think it's ineffective and of course like who gets to say I don't know but I'm saying somebody who admire like I admire effective conversations and I admire great humor dark humor wit to me often times the use of the RW in the way you've used it and the way I see the community use it is none of those things it contributes not at all to the humor and so on now I could see it might contribute to the to the camaraderie of that particular group especially when they normalize the use of that word you kind of take some of the edge off but you forget that there's a a large number of other people that don't have the chemistry the don't hear the music of the friendship that you have the relationship you have and instead they hear the normalization of a hateful word and It ultimately has an impact that's hateful and then people like me who show up you know I haven't watched much of your stuff it turns me off from like it uh a couple of times your content came came before me like and I listened to it a little bit it turned me off completely I didn't understand how good your heart is I didn't understand how your mission of actually uh der deradicalize people help people like you're uh and increase the level of good faith discourse in the world I didn't understand any of that cuz like what I was hearing is pretty rough like the rward type of stuff and I just feel like the benefit cost analysis is heavy on the cost gotcha that's so I just have to sort of call this out and I think it and I straight up think it's wrong but that's my own that's my you think it's wrong cuz it's hurting people without any benefit to you whatsoever when you say hurting people do you mean the person I'm using it at or do you think there's like the about the affected third group the third third group third group it's good feedback right I I always consider everything especially respect you a lot you're a really smart guy um something that I always kind of like fight over in terms of like language or like who to attack or what to attack or what to do is that um it's very hard to draw like what boxes um are okay to insult people on versus one aren't so for instance if I call somebody like a Nazi with a lot of vitriol I'm okay with every single Nazi being negatively affected by that because that category intrinsically calls upon on at some level of moral condemnation for me right whereas like if I'm out there I try not to do like image related jokes right I don't want to call you like oh you're a fat fucking loser because there's a lot of people that are fat that are overweight where I don't want them to feel bad I don't want them I'm not trying to call you out or like insult you so there's like a lot of um you say cost benefit I look at like a lot of collateral damage from a word like that where there's no purpose in doing that um so certain words are easy to get rid of they're off the table right Ur um N word like like these are not words you call people because you're there's so much collateral it's not worth it we've got some words where it's like if you have some form of like mental thing it is a bad thing you're not a bad person but just using that word could feel like a collateral damage to those people um and then there's other categories of words so like if I say that like um this person is like they it's a stupid fucking Republican right there's probably some Republicans that aren't dumb that I don't want to feel called out by that like are those types of phrases that you think should be completely removed as well or I'm kind of curious so this completely removed just so we're clear yeah I'm not referring to censorship oh no I'm not even talking about I'm just just a person like emotionally like remove it is the wrong word though like I care about like I'm not trying to listen to people on the internet saying like you shouldn't say that word that's not good I mean I'm trying to look to your mind and heart and the reason we're talking today is you're betraying your gift mhm you're better than this you think it's indicative of like a more flippant thought process where it's like the only way you can say that word is if you're ignoring the hurt and suffering of those people and if you're somebody that says not even those people you're ignoring the the state of language cuz I think you're getting to the point because it's not about a single word it's about like a it's music and I just feel like there's uh off strong note it's a it's a strong note that ruins the melody gotcha and I don't think I can say you know you shouldn't use the r word or whatever I'm just speaking to I'm I'm just listening to music and reviewing the the final result it's not necessarily cuz maybe one use of the word the RW uh strategically or part of an actual like or when you've built up a camaraderie that's sandwiched in in in like some love but then you try to reveal their because you're talking about a lot of there's a bunch of drama you have a b you have friends with whom you're worrying and stuff and they're all a little bit beautifully insane and you've said that you are becoming more and more insane as beautiful to watch it's The Human Condition laid before us wonderful and some of that is swearing and so on so it's a tricky thing but um the whole skill of discourse just like it is with dark humor is walking that line I just feel like it's uh overuse of the RW and I don't want to die in that ground because I don't think it's that that represent like there's certain things like that it feels like it ruins the music and I don't you know saying like a dumb Republican or dumb Dem I don't yeah that ruins it too a little bit depends on how you use it uh you can be lazy with that yeah you know like even over use of the word I think Bots is what's used for people who don't think or something I don't actually know the definition I'm offended on the on behalf of robots uh and that might be a compliment soon right exactly but I guess bot means you don't think yeah you're like an NPC you just cop again I'm offended on behalf of NPCs I I count myself as one but there's a sense if you say Bots too much that you're just dismissing people like everything I say is Right M and anyone that disagrees with me is a bot MH that that's lazy too sometimes it's funny sometimes it's effective uh basically saying a lot of people in the mainstream Media or something like that are Bots okay that's a little bit of that is effective but too much it becomes ineffective and I'm trying to speak to that and I'm just the reason we're highlighting clear examples like the nword uh Joe Rogan had to contend with that oh yeah yeah I think it's ineffective it makes you less effective a discourse I but like like you've talked about many times language is a tricky one M it's always hard because you talk about like constructing a Melody there's not one Melody that sounds good to everyone but there are probably certain notes that like if you got rid of them everybody's still going to like it about as much and you don't really lose anything there's a whole other part of an audience that might be more willing to listen yeah of course and it's not about losing using the magic of that Melody like you don't want to be vanilla I just feel like there's stuff that doesn't need to be there yeah for sure it's fat but then again you're the other thing that people should understand that might be listening to this you're streaming many hours a day for many years I don't know it's 11 or 12 I think yeah I started in 2010 and so one of the things that people can do is just clip out anything you you're going through the full Human Experience of emotion anger M fear frustration all of it so of course there's going to be moments when you're not the best version of yourself anything else to say about the language it's complicated I'm uh I'm still always trying to figure it out you know there are opinions that I have that have changed throughout the years it's possible that the r word has always been the next one on the chopping block that we're all kind of looking at but people always worried about that treadmill um but it's possible in a year or two I'll have a different view on it or all have changed way some of the words I use or not um yeah it's definitely like a it's always like a work in progress there's always like different community ities that feel different ways about different words yeah yeah but you acknowledge that there's people out there MH that are never going to talk to you they're never going to think of you as a good man because you use the on NW with a hard R publicly in the past I mean yeah those people exist but I mean there are some people that are beyond my reach which I'm okay with like there's going to be some people because of things that have been invol or even ideas that I have now that might make them beyond my reach um something you said earlier is very true I think the goal is to like identify what are the elements that you can cut out that aren't integral to your message but could be alienating to more people and those are probably the things that you identify but I think that you can get lost in yourself or lost in the internet or lost in a you know the outside of yourself if you're trying to appeal to every single person it's just never going to be the case and for I I actually I like that I've had the journey that I've had on the internet that you can find me saying and defending a lot of insane stuff 10 years ago because I think it shows like a level of progress and I think I do get a lot of respect in biome to certain communities where it's like I'm not just some random dude telling you that like oh you shouldn't say you know the f word or the NW like I'm a guy that's been there that's done it that's defended it and you can see my whole past my whole history is laid bare for you to watch every of you know thousands of hours of it um but I can show that like there's growth and evolution and change that can happen in a person so yeah and you're honest about that growth MH It's Tricky thing cuz people just call bring up stuff from your past sure I I hope we figure out as a civilization a mechanism to Clearly say this was this was Me 2 years ago this is me 5 years ago this I'm a different person and like um because Twitter doesn't care about that these social mechanisms that bring stuff up doesn't care about that it's like one stupid thing you say it becomes like a Scarlet Letter and I don't know how to fight that It's tricky to fight that have you ever seen Men In Black yes when KJ are on the bench and he says a person is smart but people are stupid dumb finicky an animals or whatever there's something that changes for human dynamics when there is a group of people that make it so hard to control like I think oneon-one anybody can sit across on somebody and admit to some horrible stuff I used to be a you know I abused my husband when I was you know 20 and now I'm 35 and I see it's wrong or I did this I was addicted to whatever and you know I made these mistakes one-onone it's always easy but in um in group environments that ingroup outgroup tribalistic thing of like identifying one thing and then coming to destroy a person's life is like is such a huge like impulse we have and I think probably when we were like hunter gatherers in the forest probably good cuz you really want to push weird people out or anything like that but now on the internet when we can hunt for any dissenting opinion and just with ruthless Precision destroy somebody's life over it it's a pretty scary Dynamic I think one of the mechanisms that could fix it is make it super easy for each individual person to analyze all the stupid shit they themselves have said in the past like full recording because I think people just honestly paint a very Rosy picture to their own brain of of who they have been in the past yeah of course if we can have empathy for the fact that we've said stupid shit or we're drunk the the ridiculous things you say the offensive things you might have said the offensive things you might have done I I just feel like that would give us the ammunition to have empathy for others that are like okay yeah this guy 5 years ago said this this maybe that doesn't represent them who who doesn't represent who they are any more than stuff I said 5 years ago represents who I am today yeah I feel like technology can actually enable that maybe although you're talking about more more recording and more stuff which people are already wary of but um it's a double-edged sword I think there's there is going to be more and more recording we have to figure out how to do that in the way that respects people privacy and gives them ownership of their data and so on I've I've looked at the search history I've done on Google which for most people's available like your Google search history and it's fascinating to watch the evolution of a human being like it doesn't seem like the same person it's like a different person for sure it's it's weird it's also hard too with the internet today I'm going to be aist again but like now all of the people are thrown together you know whereas like like I don't want a 27y old judging theage of like a 15 or 16y old like obviously he's in high school like there was that story that came out of the um there was a kid that saved the recording of I think it was like some white girl I think that she like got her driver's license and she's like I can drive now nword with the a or whatever it dumb she shouldn't have said it but I think she was like 15 or 16 when she tick toked this or whatever and he held on to that recording until she applied and got accepted to college three years later and then he released it to get her kicked out of college and I'm like damn if everything that I had ever said as like a 15 16 year-old was like immortalized on the internet my I my life wouldn't have even begun um and those are insanely high standards to hold people to um not that like obviously you shouldn't be saying those uh you shouldn't be saying certain words or whatever but you have to be able to make mistakes in adolescence like everybody does we all did everybody did it growing up you know why do you think there is so much misogyny in the streaming community and how can you fight it cuz you you've shown a lot of interest in fighting it trying to decrease or eliminate misogyny from your community I think it's really difficult I think that eliminating racism is easier than eliminating misogyny because on the internet you mean on anywhere because I think fundamentally I don't think there's that much difference between like white people and black people and brown people and Asian people or whatever um you know we have different cultures and stuff but at the end of the day we're all people but I think there are differences between men and women like throughout all of H like all of history and time and then even today in every culture and when when real differences do exist it's harder to account for them in a way that can we have conversations with each other without it becoming very gendered in a negative way right negative way of gendering something be like a misogynistic way of doing it of course it's unclear to me that it's so difficult to um to avoid the negative gendering versus the positive because there's a lot of positive to the the tension the dance between the different genders and so on maybe in this particular moment in history it's not but it's not trivial to me that racism is easier to eliminate it's an interesting hypothesis just because there's more biological difference between men and women that means it's harder to eliminate but I don't know if this is true I hear this a lot I feel like I read this but I need to get a better Source where I repeat it everywhere but I've heard that like in the US military for instance they've gotten exceedingly well they do an exceedingly good job at getting different people of different races to integrate and it's like not a huge problem once you're through basic training all the training everything but for a different Sexes it still represents a significant problem that the military hasn't figured out and I actually looked at like what's the military doing because if you know if something was solvable like can we sleep for 4 hours night and be healthy if we could I bet the military would know you know so I kind of look sometimes for them to see their integration but um it might be there are other issues there that make it yeah it feels like the military is a very particular kind of the actual task at hand might uh bias the difficulty of the process potentially yeah there's been a lot of interesting um talk about like women integrating into male groups and how do you do this in a way where everybody is happy with the outcome and there's not like issues um I think Jordan Peterson spoke about this a little bit and then workplace culture speaks about this a bit would you happen to remember I want to say it was like 5 or 10 years ago there was a big Tech conference and there were two guys behind a woman and they made a joke about like a USB dongle like dongle was a dick and this woman turned around she tweeted pictures of them spoke about like misogyny and then every that blew up into a huge ordeal that like um yeah there there was this there's this interesting phenomenon that in a less misogynistic and more inclusive workplace environment some women might end up feeling worse because in a more misogynistic environment you're thinking like okay that's a woman she doesn't get our humor I'm going to treat her in a very indifferent you know very dispassionate cold way and whatever and then I'm going to have my my boys over here um and then you've got like these environments where they're a little bit more warmer and it's like oh cool we're going to bring this woman into our environment and we're going to make all the same types of like crash jokes we did before and it's actually worse now now the woman feels even more otherwise cuz like oh my God why do you talk like this I think that internet communities especially online ones that do like political debate and video games are very much like big boy clubs so it's not enough to just say you can't be misogynistic to get rid of misogyny there's always going to be an othering effect on women there's a lot of like behaviors that are unintuitive that you have to account for and you got to try to like push that back and that's just a very very very challenging thing to do um so like I like to deal with concrete examples more so here's a concrete example um and this is like a recent initiative in my community because I'm trying to like be because misogyny hasn't been fixed anywhere in the internet I'm curious well there are ways that I can push my community to do this um I don't think you should almost ever make a comment on a woman's appearance ever if they're appearing in like some political or professional manner even if it's a positive comment I think it's equally bad to a negative comment it's just never good to do and that's kind of an unintuitive thing because it's like well a woman appears wow she's really cute it seems like a nice comment you're being nice you know she looks cute or whatever but it's like that's not at all the point of why she's there and just by saying that you're kind of like otherizing her as like a person to like think she looks good rather than listening to anything she has to say you know well there there's a lot of stuff that you're saying and that is is a part of massaging it's almost like obvious like any woman would tell you that woman will yeah but they're not in these spaces and a lot of the guys don't know I think what that requires is just empathy you don't need you don't need you need to consider the the female experience that's it like you have to either read about or talk with women you you learn like the low hanging food is very easy to learn it feels like just the level of social skill often times in Internet communities is quite low I disagree I don't like to say here's the problem with empathy is it's very hard to have empathy for experiences that are so outside of your own it well maybe some people there might be some people that can do it I can't there's a lot of stuff that I had to learn women are half the population but they're women they're totally different they're totally different so here here we'll talk about they're not totally different toally so here's an example okay so especially for me archetype makes up a lot of the internet white man um there's never been a point the name of a beautiful woman who might be a dancer what's the backstory from New Orleans or from I haven't thought that through yet um yeah it's ambiguous okay like an open world open world I want you to project whatever wherever you want Destiny the dancer to be from that's in your mind okay all right I'll save that for later tonight yeah okay as a white guy there I don't know if there's ever been a spot that I've been in where I've made been made to feel like I don't belong there just by virtue of who I am I don't I actually don't I it's impossible for me to empathize that cuz I don't even have that experience if you go back 8 nine years one of the big issues that came up was harassment and gaming against women and I was one of the big Debaters against that saying that like sure women might get harassment but everybody gets harassment if you're a woman and you're in gaming and you get harassed congratulations you're being treated like a man what you're actually asking for is for us to actually treat you differently you don't want to be insulted um you don't want to be treated like a man and that's actually misogyny is women making that argument did you still stand by that is that a problem if I do no I'm just kidding okay almost hold on a little so a little while after I disagree with it sure okay that's good you should a little while later um I had a friend uh Jessica super cool girl we go to play games she's between jobs and she's like I've got like two months and we're going to grind CS go and I'm like okay this is awesome let's do it uh CS go um Counter Strike lobal offensive shooter game FPS microphones first day we start playing okay hop into our first game obviously L she talks everybody's making is that a 12-year-old boy why aren't you making sandwiches blah blah blah yeah okay whatever play our first game play our second game same jokes third game fourth game by like the fourth or fifth game I was actually starting to feel triggered like every time the game started I was like can you just like talk so we can get over like the stupid fucking jokes it's so fucking stupid and you hear the same fucking joke every single time and it took one day of that experience for me to realize it's not about being insulted it's like this othering feeling that you don't belong and I've never felt that because I'm a white guy like I it just not to be like virtue singular so but like there's just there's no places where it's like you're white you don't belong here you're a guy you don't belong here um like I've never felt that not inclusion and playing with her there's a different feeling when it's the same types of jokes coming from a group of people to make you feel like you don't belong there where I was like damn this actually feels really bad and it feels bad in a different way where it's like if you call me um like ANF slur or um any other type of swear word or insult like yeah you can call me that but at the end of the day like we're all kind of the same we're all white dudes we call each other names but like this is a woman and this is not her place and she doesn't belong here kind of the analogy that I would make um cuz I I after getting these experiences I learn this afterwards if I tell you that there's another guy in a room and you need to think of the worst insults ever for that person without ever knowing anything about them or meeting them if I tell you that it's like a white straight guy and you have to write insults you're fucked maybe you can do like school shooter there's not really much you can say at the end of the day but if I tell you it's a woman we could there are so many different jokes right if it's a black person so many different racist things we can say are you sure I can come up with a lot of stuff for a white guy in terms of stuff that is just intrinsic to him being a white guy yeah like there's really wait a minute what are you talking about there's a lot the internet has sharpened that sword in terms of like jokes that are targeted at his sex virgin weak some of the Insel virgin maybe yeah that's getting there sure that's for sure um that's recent though sorry I'm older on the internet we didn't have those words way back then that was when I was making these analogies that incel and vir my day we didn't have General there were no inels back then none of us had sex we just accepted we were all computer Gamers nobody had sex to play video games back then okay people don't remember that there wasn't the Big Bang Theory you were just a loser that was stuck you guys didn't even know sex exists you can use as an insult we had to download sexual pictures and it took two minutes and you didn't even know if you were going to get the right thing by the time it finished loading but but what I'm saying is like okay I think you agree that like if if somebody gives you like a race like a black person who's a woman we can write like very cutting scathing like insults for that person that are very authorizing oh words that would really hurt if yeah that are very cutting to the person but like for a White Guy um it's kind of hard because it's like that's like the default there's not as much otherizing of those people yeah kind so the insults you have from white guy to white guy the insults are much harsher so when you start to apply the same kind of harshness to other groups you can make them feel like they really don't belong and that otherizing effect is something that's very hard for me I can't really empathize it CU I've never felt it so I have to intellectualize it and then sympathize with it it's like a whole process I have to go through and then I try to walk other people through that cuz if you're a white guy on the internet which is a lot of the internet you really don't know what that feels like you've never felt like that before so you're now in a leadership position uh Grand Grandpa Destiny so that's a lot of people look up to you for that M for that sort of Pathway to empathy yeah Hana to other eyes I mean you have felt other eyes in your you you mentioned High School people like not being yeah but those are always for things that like it's different to insult somebody for a non- immutable characteristic like okay you think poorly about me because I'm like not enough money or I don't have money but I could get more money and I could change that but it's different for somebody to really attack you for like your gender or attack you for like your race a lot of the attacks that hit the hardest is not about gender it's it's I I do think that they like the way women are attacked on the Internet it's the same kind of attacks you would do towards other guys but you go harsher I feel like they're fundamentally different I feel like when we're attacking guys I'm not usually attacking you on like the virtue of you being a guy but like if it's a woman and she's typing saying like oh did your boyfriend type that for you or like what are you even doing here like don't you shouldn't be trying to find a husband or like oh you're like a stupid kind like go start an only fans or no but the stupidity the intelligence aspect is what's attacked yeah but it's so much different like you can call a guy stupid but that's because he's a guy that's being stupid but when you call a woman stupid she's stupid because she's a woman yeah but I honestly think that women are called stupid more than men on the internet nothing to do like the attack is not gendered it's the gender inspires an increased level of attack I feel like it is gendered I wish we had data on this have you ever heard of the xkcd Comics yes it's a really good comic where and I this is something that I've dealt with a lot in my community okay there's a guy at a board and he fucks up a math equation and it's like wow you suck at math math and then the next panel is there's a girl that does it and she fucks it up and it's like wow women's suck at math and there's like that feeling that happens where when I bring on um I won't use names but they're like YouTube people that are brought on that have crazy opinions and when they're men that person is crazy oh my God he said the crazy stuff he's so dumb he's so crazy so stupid but when it's a woman it's like oh my God why do you always bring dumb women here why do so many women on the internet have crazy opinions there's a different like minority character that has to like stand and like represent like their whole group where like white men don't typically have to speaking of groups versus individuals yes but then what I feel happens is then another person from that group comes another woman comes and people before she says anything will already feel like they're ready with that attack for sure but they're ready for the attack cuz she's a woman they're going to call her she's stupid because she's a woman not because she says something just cuz she's a woman so like uh the group in their brain accumulates all the negative characteristics of the individuals they've met not the positive the negative and it becomes like this ball of stickiness and then that becomes the bias for their judgment of a new person that comes with white men there's more of a blank slate in terms of bias of how they analyze the person with any any of the minority group they basically make a judgment based on the negative characteristics of the individuals they met in the past I just that leads to a system where you're just harsher to towards minority groups and towards women how do you solve that the fir the most important thing for any problem ever is step one is to be aware of it if you're not aware of it then you're hopelessly lost at sea but the yeah the first thing I like to say is just like be aware of it like I've had there's a girl that I've had on recently and she says a lot of in my opinion kind of crazy things but people will use her as like this is why women shouldn't be here this is like she's crazy and she's a woman and blah blah blah but I can bring on a guy who say similarly dumb things and he's evaluated on his own merits cuz it's a guy you know there's never ever ever been a case where I brought a stupid guy on stream and everybody's been like this guy makes me hate men this guy makes me hate white people that has never happened but then there's like other women that come on and it's like now I know why incels exist or I totally understand where red pill ideology comes from you know and even if the statements are kind of true when you're making these observations over and over and over and over again it it damages your ability to individually perceive somebody and then two people that make the same statements one can be perceived more harshly just because of that like group bias you've got built up I think there's something about streaming that just brings it out of people like cuz you have to talk hours so you're like all right well whatever psychological issues and complexities I have I'm going to explore them magnified magnify and then we're and then it's the Gerard as you talked about the mimetic uh uh Theory so gerardi and like whatever the things that are very similar and you're going to magnify the conflicts that you have and you're going to explore the all the different perspectives on those different conflicts and I mean I don't I don't know if it's just anecdotal but it's nice to have women on stream and I think the dynamic uh that you guys have is is is is wonderful it's it's really interesting so yeah it's just the female voice in general I I love having women on the podcast the female voice I feel like is under heard on the internet for sure and I would love the internet to be a place where women feel safe to speak all right given that you're like we talked about a progressive with non-standard Progressive use so you're very pro- free speech mhm Pro capitalism so given that it's very interesting that you're also pro-establishment and pro institutions MH uh so right now if you look at the world there's a significant distrust of Institutions uh at least in sort of public intellectual discourse uh what is the nature of your support for government and institutions can you make the case for and against them broadly speaking there is a synergistic effect when two humans come together if I can speak very broadly in terms of we'll say utility okay my happiness with one person might be 10 the happiness with another person might be 10 but when they come together it's like 50 between the two of them there's like the synergistic effect when humans work together that the sum is greater than all the individual parts or whatever there's like an emergent thing that happens there there's a capacity there's a possibility of that yeah a possibility sure things could go really wrong there could be a cannibalistic tribe that all eats each other sure but for the purpose this there's other failure modes but yes okay sure yeah for the for the but well I think broadly speaking you're are you going to be the well actually guy okay if you want to well okay well actually well actually cannibalism War Holocaust true yeah sometimes things do go wrong but I think broadly speaking the fact that you're sitting here in clothing that you didn't make and I'm sitting here on an airplane that I don't know how to fly or Bill like right there's a lot of cool stuff that happens when people come together and they make civilizations and part of that Civilization build is the fact that we can specialize and it's the fact that we can offload a bunch of trust onto third parties that we delegate the power to make important decisions about our lives right I don't know anything about how to like build like a combustion engine but I know that when I push the button on my car it's going to drive around and the fumes aren't going to kill me and I can park it in garages and the building's not going to collapse and the only reason all of this works is because I've offloaded a lot of trust on these third party things and I would say that the pillars of these third party things that soci is built on are roughly speaking institutions so that might be the institution of peer review for scientific articles um it might be the institution of uh voting for government right or or the the the ability for us to vote in that whole process it might yeah all the FDA like all of these institutions are things that they need to exist because we don't have the time or the capability to individually sort through all of those all of these things um individually we have to rely on some third party to do it okay so you believe at scale the when we're together we're greater than the sum of our parts that's the case for institutions absolutely what about the inefficiencies of bureaucracy is there some aspect when at scale different Dynamics come into play than they do when there's two people together two people that love each other the birds and the bees m is there some aspect that leads more to cannibalism at scale so like corruption inefficiencies that due to bureaucracy and so on mhm bureaucracy which is not I hate it when people try to say bureaucracy is government because bureaucracy exists a ton in private environments as well right in businesses and everything um bureaucracy introduces its own set of problems but I mean a bureaucracy is necessary because it's coordinating all of the underlying things in order in order to create something that's greater than the sum of its parts right like all of the software developers in the world are useless without being paired with good designers in order to make their products usable by a person and the coordination of those people and the coordination of increasingly more and more things necessitate some level of bureaucracy I think we always say bureaucracy when it's like a bad it's like a slur almost like you're a a bureaucrat you're bureaucratic the bureaucracy is slowing everything down it's like sure the bureaucracy slows things down but bureaucracy also gives us things like you know safe medicine and safe water to drink for most of the US or safe buildings to live in or safe cars to drive so so the managers in institution versus like the software developers and the designers the managers is the bureaucracy the the reason bureaucracy is used as a slur is that something about human nature leads to bureaucracy often growing growing indefinitely becoming less and less efficient without a I mean this is where capitalism can come in that uh capitalism puts a pressure on the bureaucracy not to grow too much because you want the bureaucracy to be useful but not large yeah and to be a certain size yeah of course to be the minimum size to get the job done and so capitalism provides that mechanism government does not always and so that's the criticism of government of Institutions where it can grow without a significant mechanism that says there's a cost to bureaucracy that's not being accounted for here we're just paying for the increasing size of government without the benefit yeah government is a special institution because it doesn't have to show itself to be financially V and we kind of live in a capitalist economy where that's generally the case so government gets its powers from votes from the people which introduces a whole new set of possible positives and possible negatives right having something for instance that gives food or shelter to homeless people maybe you don't want that to have to run at a profit um but giving you know an organization that can self- justify its budgets perpetually and indefinitely growing maybe that's not the best thing yeah we we always have to figure out how to do the constraints there but what about the the corrupting nature of power that comes with institutions as well absolutely so then you better pick your your style of institution very carefully I think that the Democratic institution we have in the United States today I think works very well but I mean there are other styles of government that have been tried in the past that I think lend themselves more to corruption not to say that by the way there's not corruption in the United States of course there's going to be varying levels of corruption at like all um at all levels but you R you ran into this interesting problem where authoritarian regimes can act with ruthless precision and swiftness because they don't have to ask any questions they just do do do do do and that's it um but the problem is is it's an authoritarian regime they're prone to missteps they're slow to respond to changing or evolving needs there was an interesting study that was put out a while ago that showed that like every single famine that happened around the world almost all like 98% of them happen under authoritarian regimes where like freedom of speech is very limited it's very rare for a famine to happen under uh democracy because press and everything makes the government more responsive to the needs of the people power can corrupt their levels of corruption but you have to have like a system of checks and balances on on all of those different levels to make sure it doesn't run off the rails I guess and do a sick loop-de-loop and you know half the population gets nice call back there's a lot of people that that will listen to you say that the Democracy in the United States is working pretty damn well and and they will spit out the drink if they're drinking a drink and uh be very upset uh can you make the case that they're right and you're wrong can I make the case steel man they're right yeah well the Steelman for them is that people have a lot of problems on the dayto day and when they look and they see what government is doing um they might see potholes outside their house homeless people all over their downtown and the United States just approved another x billion amount of dollars for Ukraine or they might be living in a city where half the factories are shut down a lot of their people out of work but the president is on the TV talking about how to find jobs for immigrants coming in from Mexico and for these people they have problems that exist in their lives they're some of them are paying taxes to alleviate these problems and then we listen to the when they listen to the government talk feels like the government is not responding to the needs that they have and then that's one problem then on top of that you've got all of these people working in alternative media that can show you well look at this politician wasting this much money or look at him double speaking here or there look at Hillary Clinton saying she's got a private position and a public position look at how all of these politicians have family members that are getting rich because of their relationships with people in Congress look at the revolving door between uh capitalist companies and the government how can you look at all of that take into account that the government's not responding to your needs and then really feel like it's a government by the people and for the people yeah this was very good good Steel Man and good question how can you how can you how can you tell that they're not just politicians that care more about continuously winning the elections versus being uh running government effectively they should care about winning the elections that's the first misconception a lot of people say this guy only cares about getting voted in this guy like he doesn't even believe about in uh in fracking or abortion he just changed his opinion to get voted in anytime time somebody says that you should say that's really good you want them to change their opinion so they get put it in that's the whole point of a democracy you don't want them to remain obstinate you don't want them to say I'm not changing my opinion no matter what the people want you want them to evolve and adopt new opinions based on what the population their constituents are voting for yeah but the cynical take is that they're The Sur on the surface they're changing their opinion but that there's a boys club where boys means the elite that under in the Smoke fi rooms uh in secret they actually have their own agenda and they're following that agenda and they're just saying uh anything publicly to Plate the public based on whatever the the new trends are soal take a yeah I understand somebody asked me this question and it flipped I I 180 completely um I was a Bernie Sanders supporter in 2016 and my my single issue voting thing was lobbying I thought that lobbying the government was corrupt they weren't responding to IND people it was completely destroyed my faith in government everything and I had one question post me by a conservative that used to come on my stream and chat with me and he said um I think he asked me can you think of any any popular opinion that the American public has that the government is unresponsive to is there some big piece of legislation or policy or whatever that people want that the government isn't doing when they asked me that I couldn't think of a single good answer and I'm like oh jeez there's a good drugs there's not legalization of drug hold on yeah go for it oh shoot you're doing The Joe Rogan thing you're pushing back cuz I brought up weed go go ahead I'm sorry I have become meme I don't even I don't want to interrupt your your because there's memes upon memes upon memes I can go with here but uh no uh cuz people bring up okay there's no issues there's no issues that the government is not representing of of the public so here's the issue so somebody will bring up like what about the legalization of drugs okay the first issue people have is one they look at National polling very few things are decided on a national level so that's the first huge mistake arguably a lot of BLM made mistakes in this um Arena where they're saying like why isn't the government doing anything about policing federal government can't do anything about policing that's going to be your sometimes not even your state it's your local city government the people that like elect like your chief of um police your Police Commissioner that's coming from your mayor right um so you've got people looking one at the wrong parts of the government to even figure out the solution to the problem two often times for pulling the questions are vague enough that you can pull very high but when you get into the Weeds on things no pun intended um you start to realize like oh shoot this is more complicated than I thought I don't know the numbers in particular for legalization of marijuana but this is what I'm going to guess is the case if you pull and you say should we legalize marijuana that number might pull at like 65 70% but that's including people that are in favor of medical marijuana if you were to pull like should we legalize should we decriminalize recreational use of marijuana that number might drop to like 52% and then if you pull like should we completely legalize not just decriminalize but completely legalize recreational I never mind dropped to like 40% there's like all these different ways you can pull around issues where people like oh no we broadly agree on this topic but when you really figure out well do you do we really agree or is there just like broad consensus around a thing that's never going to show up like in a piece of legislation a really good example one example I do know is socialized Healthcare I think if you pull there was a time a few years ago where if you pull America do you think every American citizen should have access to uh like free healthcare I think that answer that pulled it like 74% yes but when you asked should the government be the Sole Provider of healthcare it dropped to like 26% dropped 50 points and you could see it was both asking questions about Single Payer but the way that it was asked was so different that even if you all it looks like there's consensus there's not nearly as much consensus as people think around certain ideas yeah go we you're right you're right you're right you're right that polls the way you ask the polls really matters but when you ask should the government be in charge of a thing that also biases the answer right that like because such a Negative experience with government creating a.gov site that runs the thing but sometimes sometimes I think if you dig in if you have a one-hour conversation with each individual citizen sure I think you will understand that yes there's support for socialized medicine like it's not the argument has to be made though yeah what do you mean the argument has to be made like if you just ask a conservative like what about Single Payer they're going to tell you no you might be able to build up to an argument for it but you're going to have to make the case for it I thought we were talking about the feeling deep inside your mind and heart does the government represent that oh so it's not like some shallow surface layer public opinion does the government effectively represent what the people want not a shallow survey but deeply what they want I'm not actually that familiar with with the debates over Healthcare but let's maybe look at an easier one maybe you'll say it's harder war war is really good example where the government was very responsive I think to the people you think so so Iraq Afghanistan the government didn't manipulate public opinion there's an argument to be made that they did in terms of like wmd and everything but after 911 were you in the United States after 911 after 911 I leg seems accusatory like where were you in 911 just checking okay all right cool I have evidence and uh Witnesses no okay all right I'm very defensive right now it's very strange look look into it Alexon but I think after 911 we could have gone to Country we could have gone to war with any country in the world we would have we were ready because all of America was like oh my God and they pointed to Iraq and you know the reasons for the wmds was kind of dumb but I don't think we even needed wmds to go to Iraq we could have just said you know Saddam Hussein was giving Medical Aid to Taliban Al-Qaeda Iraq let's go and we would have gone for it but um post Iraq Iraq was for a while popular and then became obvious viously deeply unpopular Iraq and Afghanistan and I think you could see that influence other foreign policy that the United States had for instance we opted more towards like drone Warfare than troops on the ground for places like Yemen um we opted more towards like kind of like sending money and help instead of boots on the ground for places like Syria um and I think that a lot of that was kind of in response to how unpopular the Iraq stuff had became and when you looked at a lot of Elections afterwards even for Obama like one of the defining characteristics of a lot of campaigns were like I'm going to close Guantanamo Bay I'm going to get us out of Foreign Wars even up to Trump I'm going to you know I'm not going to stop doing all this weird stuff in the Middle East but they didn't still withdraw from Afghanistan they didn't withdraw but they definitely like tapered off and weren't like as aggressively pushing those types of conflicts because they knew it was unpopular but I think if you also consider perfect information or or good information if you ask a lot of people are you okay spending this amount of money for this purpose so military conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan I think almost from the very beginning they would say no after 911 I feel like maybe like a few days after 911 like well there's there's some memes and so on yes but the nature of the public support for the war was there public support in 2003 which is when when The Invasion happened I feel like initially there was a lot I remember seeing it on but then I also lived in a republican household and I was not very like media Savvy at the time so my par I don't know if the nature of that public support had to do with wmds or with 911 cuz the weird came about w Ms but I wonder what what is the if you were to PLL people and let's say hypothetically there was above 50% support for the war what would be the nature of that support uh and to to what degree is the government actually representing the will of the people versus some complex mechanism like the military-industrial complex is manipulating The Narrative that's controlling public opinion and then there's the media that uh gets a lot of attention by being divided and how they're shaping The Narrative through the mechanism of division so what there's a lot of complicated things at it's not just like the people and then the government and that that's yeah for sure I agree that there are going to be different elements at play and and how much of those elements that lead us astray can be attributed to the largess of the different systems so and the different institutions like the the media institutions and government the institutions that have a monopoly on violence let's put it this way which is what one way to define government sure it's complicated um there's definitely going to be different institutions at play I but I think that like all I would say is like in reference to my original point when there becomes like broad consensus around a thing I think the government will usually follow it's not going to fight it's going to follow more often than not um but I think that a lot of times I think Americans think that there's more consensus around certain issues than there actually are um so like a really good example we're on that war Point too um what caused like the lowest dip in Biden's approval rating I'm pretty sure it was right after we pulled out of Afghanistan which I think if I would have asked people like a year before like let's assume that we could pull out of Afghanistan um the government's probably going to collapse after we leave because they just don't have the will to fight they don't have the support they don't whatever it's just not going to work but like no Americans are going to die may be a couple other people but like no americ are going to die we're going to get Afghanistan would you support that I think broadly speaking I think I think like more than 60 or 70% of Americans are like yeah that would be fine but then when it actually plays on TV when we see the people hanging on to the planes when we see like helicopter Embassy some of the quotes from politicians well now it's like oh my God this was horrible and it was so botched and it was so like it could have gone so much better like well could it have gone better like maybe maybe not but I mean it seems like they you can have consensus around a certain opinion but the way that things play out and the way that people actually feel it's actually way way way more complicated and there's not usually this broad consensus opinion when or yeah go ahead I'd like to believe that I mean just to lay my cards on the table I have uh faith in the power of Effective Government MH I just have um a lot of concern about what happens as institutions grow in size for sure and I just have a lot of worry about the natural corrupting influence on the individuals and on the system as a whole like the the boys club nature of it I don't know there must be a better term but basically they they agree to the game and they play the game and there's a generational aspect momentum to the game and they more and more stop being responsive to the people that they represent I just feel like there is that mechanism and I think the nice thing democracy elections are resistance to that natural human mechanism um also the balances of power is a resistance to that mechanism in some ways the media that reveals the bullshit of politicians is also a resistance to that mechanism it's it's hard to be full of shit as a politician cuz people will try to catch you on it so there's a honesty method there that keeps you honest it's to some degree but it still feels like it still feels like politicians are going to politici yeah they definitely play their games that is true there's probably always going to be that meta narrative over like governance that just develops as like you have to form relationships and play games to get legislation passed and everything the the only reason why I don't like it when people attack institutions is because one institutions are incredibly important arguably Paramount no they are to keeping Society Running and two I think sometimes when we shift the blame onto institutions too much I think that we lose sight of what the real problems are so for instance in the United States today people might be very critical of the government not getting much done but then everybody turns their eyes to the government for being ineffective but what I would argue is I would say the government is actually incredibly effective and it's showcasing the will of the American people really well right now which is we are historically more divided than we have ever been and if I were to just look at the people and I would say we have a historic divide that is getting like rapidly blown apart by things like the internet and the media right if that exist well what would I expect that government to look like I wouldn't expect that government to be governing very effective I would expect that government to show that legitimate divide in people do you think that divide we have a perception of a large divide between left and right do you think that's a divide this in this country narrow the language what do you mean by real divide do you think there is that divide in ideology that there's a large number of people that believe a certain set of policies and the different set of policies just the perception of the on on Twitter no I think there is a large divide in terms of belief I don't think there's very much divide between any people in terms of like what they like on the most fundamental levels want in terms of like human beings but in terms of like Democrat versus Republican right now I think there is a huge divide in terms of the direction they want to see the country go and what they believe really and what they even believe is reality right unfortunately that's where we've gotten to can I just speak about the mechanism of the left and right here maybe on the mimic raly aspect is there some aspect to the left on which you're a part of that attacks their own for ideological impurity more than the right does is it the bigotry of small differences there's a name there's a concept where um when you're near somebody who is very slightly different than you you want to destroy but when you're with somebody that's way different than you you don't um I think the left does it but I think the right does it too I didn't realize it until I started dipping more into conservative communities but oh my God the people from The Daily wire and the people from turning point and um the America First all the all these different groups of people hate each other and they fight each other so much they hire and fire sometimes employees they talk smack about each other um I think there's a lot of political division between both sides I think that the left just kind of gets highlighted more because it's like the internet and a lot of the internet spaces have a lot of left laning people so you see like the crazy communist and the crazy progressives and the crazy Center left liberals and the crazy blah blah blah whereas like a lot of the right- Ling people have kind of been pushed off of the main areas of the internet now interesting my sense was that it's hard to exist on the center left but maybe because I just don't have the full spectrum view of the political divide it felt like Central left is a difficult position to occupy current yeah I would definitely say so yeah I don't know if it's that difficult to be center it's very difficult to be center right I think actually maybe even more difficult because a center right person might be somebody who's like conservative but not a fan of trump and you're like over like look like Liz Cheney right you've had politicians that are just like they didn't back the Trump stuff and now they're gone or you might be like center right but like you don't think the election was stolen and now you're like half the Republican part is looking at you're like you're crazy you know um that's true that's true I think uh Ben be who I'm talking with I think he publicly spoke against Trump right he did initially but I feel like he softened his language up on him pretty significantly but so there's a sign pressure to kind of to a certain kind of messaging which the whole Republican party is feeling right now jeez that two years from now that election is going to be insane it's just hard okay so to generalize it's hard to be in the center it feels like for sure just Center and then like do like a random walk among the policies around that I don't know what that mechanism is I mean it makes people like me not feel good MH being in the center it seems like people are just not nice to people in the center like the the public uh the Twitter machine is not nice to people who are open-minded in the center is that is there some truth to that two reasons for that one is because I think a lot of people that market themselves as Center are legitimately spineless cowards and deserve to be called out like like I've never killed a man but today might be my first oh no um there I'll take over like I told you I'll take over your stream with the AI we'll see is the Zach guy going to be streaming in the background okay gotcha gotcha gotcha gotcha lots of gotas lots of gotchas okay got okay gotcha and decrease the amount which already is a pretty low level of emotion just decreas it completely when people are screaming at you and accusing stuff just remain calm absolutely emotionless the gaslighter strategy yeah okay so what we're talking about so I I don't uh I don't even I don't ever identify a center anything because it's got such a bad reputation because fuck that I stand center with a spine it's called being open-minded and it's not Center left and right those are just labels here's a really good quote my mom said to me when I was really young she said Stevie don't ever let your mind be so open that your brain falls out and that's what I find that a lot of Center people do that's not what she told me last night why are you like this I'm sorry man okay I'm glad I can glad I can bring that I'm glad you feel like this is safe space like I said people non judgmental if you want to talk about fucking my mom you know what you're totally within your rights I didn't say you said that I support that she's a beautiful woman uh her husband probably wouldn't be too happy about it but you know I didn't say there's any sexual relations I it was just that having a conversation with her you projected that that says more about you than me anyway go ahead about spineless Center spineless Center there is some aspect to that which is like Amorphis to me Center means you you think freely about each individual policy without being stuck to a c some ideal yeah but a lot of people don't do that they call themselves Centrist but then they just they're anti establishment essentially on everything I don't know your position on like the vaccines or anything um but like I met a lot of like free and open thinkers who are like you know what I'm open to everything and it's an experimental vaccine and I'm going to eat hydroxy Clarin and Ivermectin because that's what the institutions are telling me not to take and I think fouchy got too much money from that company and these are but I'm an open thinker and I'm and they what what open thinker BEC I'm an MIT what do you think my position of vaccines is exactly I hear a lot of crazy things from a lot of people okay you might be from MIT but I know you're from the internet okay people from the internet are weird and crazy so so yeah well I uh who knows I don't like arrogance and I have criticized scientists during Co a lot of people but scientists included having arrogance which is fair but and that's and I think there's a lot of good criticism to be made of different um scientific and medical establishments over a lot of stuff but nobody can make those good criticisms because they're too like obsessed over like just trying to have the anti-establishment answer and that is what is upsetting me the most like I think there are good conversations to be had about a lot of stuff related to how we handled the Corona virus you know were lockdowns effective was there enough data to support the huge measures we took um you know why didn't we have the option to show I was infected a month ago why do I need to be vaccinated why did why wasn't that option ever in the United States I don't think it was um there are really good questions to be asked there but all the people asking the questions are also trying to tell you that iorm and monoclonal antibodies are the way to go for everything and the vaccine is evil and it's going to turn you gay like the frogs and it's like Jesus like you can't there's like no place to reasonably criticize from because all of the people that are criticizing aren't doing it with an open mind or you know they're not reading studies or doing anything they're saying like I do my own research which means they listen to whatever the last guy Joe Rogan said and now they're parting that opinion 100% the last guy on Joe ran not joean okay that Robert Malone guy on Joe ran got me real fired up one guest people see him as like the father of mRNA technology he published one paper okay what do you mean people which people think that Joan fans I get like I I run into these people I start arguing with people and they start setting me what about I'm a Jo Rogan fan and I appreciate the vaccine that's good I'm glad you do but there's definitely like so but you said there's a type there's a type what's the type what's the type of Joe Rogan fan anti-establishment I think that's not Joe Rogan that's like that's a general public discourse there's a default anti establishment on the on the right and the left that's the default easy thing to go to I think Joe Rogan fans are definitely a certain type of anti-establishment though like I could guess the Joe Rogan like if I were to do general population versus Joe ran fan who do you think is more likely to be antivaccine do you have data on this are you just guessing yeah just guessing yeah I think you are actually judging I am I think you're judging cuz I think you're also the beautiful thing about podcasting this could be similar in streaming is there's a large number of people that just listen like what what does it mean to be a Joe Rogan fan I don't think you just listen I think people listen and absorb the information I would say that The Joe Rogan fan base is as divided in the vaccine as the general public gotcha man I'm going to look for polling data on that I'm sure somebody's got to have done it out there but no but you're you're basically revealing the fact they have no data you're using your own judgment for sure uh based on how he's had conversations about how his experience with the Corona virus and then based on the guests that have come on that have talked and echoed a lot of like antia talking points and been completely unchallenged and then based on statements he's made about like myocarditis and the vaccine and everything as well yeah so the it's the level of challenge or not that he's doing M well yeah and then what his true positions are and then the types of guests he typically chooses to bring on to talk about the vaccines yeah okay but that represents somehow a deep anti-establishment feeling versus just the vaccine I mean I've seen the vaccine and other things being a thing that broke people all the Corona virus that whole one or two years broke a lot of people there's a lot of emotion and the emotion quickly uh solidified into an opinion that almost had nothing to do with like Reon like thinking through and updating your knowledge and so on you just made up a made up your mind yeah but I think a lot of it comes from that anti-establishment place like what the vaccine represents the ultimate of establishment it was a huge private company backed by a huge uh public government and there's fouchy and there's Biden and there's fizer and there's all these countries locking us up in our homes telling us to do a thing like the vaccine was like the ultimate like submission tool to like show you that the government owns you not only you have to get ejected once it's a series and then you got to get boosters and it's like they're trying to keep you under their thumb and it's that's the control um I Feel Like That vaccine became like the ultimate rallying cry between like do you support are you a sellout that is going to believe whatever the government tells the Sheep to take or are you going to be like the guy that stands against the crowd and gets fired from his job and pulls his kids from school because they're not going to let the evil fouchy medicine you know jab them in the arm and the funny thing is the crowd that stands against the institution is now larger than the crowd of sheep there's like one sheep standing there sure yeah or it feels that way sometimes one vaccinated sheep but okay uh what's the defense of Institutions how do you regain the trust of Institutions like for first of all do you think that there's ways in which wh CDC failed and do you think there's criticism towards fizer and the big Pharma companies that's deserved damn the Pharma companies I'm not sure um for CDC and so here's a criticism that I have of all of Academia and I feel it stronger and stronger every day I don't think it's enough to be a researcher or to be correct about issues Academia needs to increase its ability to communicate um it is just an an unbelievable unmitigated failure that academics are unwilling to weigh into the complicated topics uh that exist today because other people are you know first you call me spineless and then you call me a bad communicator but no look you're here you're doing it so you get props for me okay good job that motherfuck but there are like so many but I'm sure youve I'm sure that you must have um heard another fellow academic a fellow colleague express some amount of frustration about like in their specific discipline they know something to be true and they know that like a lot of the messaging is like wrong or bad in the public about it but they're never going to step out and say anything because either one they're very measured and careful with their take which they feel is incompatible with what people want to hear or two they're really worried that they might be incorrect so they're going to be cautious while everybody else is going out in like hardcore their and they also don't have the support of Institutions for them to go on a limb yeah that too so like to take risks for example I've heard that with u lab League Theory I've had a lot of biologist biologist friends that are like yeah it's obviously leaked from the lab like early on oh maybe okay we can fight over this one but sorry guys we can fight over this well like they okay I I should sort of back step and say like that's like you talk about shooting the shit you haven't really investigated but it's your gut like this doesn't make any sense there would never say that publicly of course mostly because you're saying like what they would all say is like we want to see data yeah which would be good which is fine so they're going with like like this just too many coincidence in the same place that's the the logic but they don't want to say anything because there's no data you need to have evidence you need to have actual evidence to say one way or the other there's that but there's also just like you said I mean effect effective communication you're a fan of Sean Carol one of yes he's like one of the only people in this whole planet that I like besides you I love Sean that's anytime Sean Carol's brought up as evidenced there's a smile that comes over your face of like Joy of like a little kid thinking about Santa Claus okay I love Sean Carol too I love Sean Caroll because there I hate this divide between like your either stem or your like philosophy arts and all that other stuff and the Two Worlds can over cross and I love that he was so good at physics but like explores and pays attention to all of the like sociological stuff too it's so rare to find that quality in a person he's legit one of the really really really specializ but you don't have to be a Sean Carol you can be just a little better at educating another person in the uh in the medical and the health space is somebody named Andrew huberman a friend of mine from uh Stanford he's an incredible educator there's the kind of process in science they usually call like review or survey papers where you basically summarize all that's going on integrate it and like draw wisdom from it and also project like where is the discipline headed and Andrew does that basically on all these subcomponents of the different stuff going on in in neuroscience and biology neurobiology all that he's able to he does a podcast called hubman lab where he just summarizes all and is able to explain like what does that actually mean for your for your life in terms of Protocols of how to make your life better I feel like people should be able to do that more and more but with vir virology and oh boy that's a tricky one that's a really tricky one I wish that people could have honest conversations like I attack a lot of people that do the La League Theory stuff but truly we should be able to have that conversation publicly it just it always feels like the people that are having the conversation don't ever really want to have the conversation they're not being honest like every like I'm a guy that like does his own research and it's so boring reading studies and a lot of it I can only do abstracts and like I like it's so much work but I'll never ever say that about myself I'm a guy that does his own research because every time I hear somebody say that they don't do any research when they say they do their own research with they mean as they've seen one podcast and their opinion on is what podcast is that definitely not mine CU it was mine I wouldn't be criticizing anything they say um but yeah so like La leak is another one where it's like well how do you know it's lab leak how do I know it's La leak uh because fouchy lied and Hunter Biden laptop and it's okay come on you haven't engage with it at all there's really interesting research that shows there a really strong study that shows that there's like a high degree of certainty that it came from the weet markets very very high degree of certainty and there there was an article that came out recently where it's like Senate concludes that virus actually came from uh the Wuhan virology lab or whatever um and that article if you actually read it it never says that in the article I don't know why they tweeted it with that headline um but yeah it's to back up I'm sorry I think we should have good you should be sorry yeah I'm not sorry actually I get to ramble here okay I'm here for a long time I resend my apology okay I actually resend my apology um we should be able to have challenging conversations about things but you got to man be well read on both sides not not this like I do my own research so I don't believe anything that fouchi say like come on dude you can do better than that not you personally but gotcha how does that feel feels uh so for people who don't know that's the catchphrase gotcha through all tragedy and Triumph through all the roller coaster of Life your response to it is gotcha yeah it's uh well actually let me jump to that be before I continue to with with political discourse um psychologically you are in a lot of heated debates and you're usually super calm Under Fire until you're not sometimes you lose your temper completely very rarely but that's like your opinion man let me ask you about your psychology what are psychologically your strengths and weaknesses that you're self-aware about I think I'm very non-judgmental so I can entertain a lot of different thoughts without agreeing with them or condoning them um I think that's a really big benefit to me um for whatever reason I seem to be like pretty calm in dealing with annoying people um it's why I got promoted at the casino so fast I could deal with like drunks or whatever like it just didn't affect me that much what percent of the population annoying depends on how you're engaging with them most people aren't really annoying ever but you're doing like political debate um how what percentage is annoying I guess depends on who I'm debating and what the topic is well I I guess I'm trying to point out the fact that sometimes you can say that reveals something about you if you think a large percent of people are annoying well I would say working graveyard shift when alcohol is involved that percentage of people goes very very very high or to be more fair actually it's not a high percentage truly but if you're a server one bad customer can ruin the rest of your shift so you only need like one or two people acting in that manner to just like totally throw you off and you're able to at least these days not allow that one customer to throw you off quote unquote yeah I'm very much like a um I noticed this especially after having a son there's something about like six-year-old kids or whatever where it's like if they get mad they're never going to be mad for that long like they'll move on like that's my mentality I'm like a six-year-old kid like I might be mad about something but I'll get over in like 30 minutes or an hour like yeah um I'm pretty good about not caring caring that through it it's very rare that I'll like hold a grudge against anybody or like be angry about something or really disaffected by something over the long term that almost never happens to me what are your weaknesses psychologically would you say I still have a problem with projecting I think we all probably do but like my mind onto others it's like if I understand this and I've said this you should understand it and if you're not you're dumb um that's like an issue that I I still have that where I project too much what about like holding grudges and stuff like that I'd never hold grudges I'm like the least grudging person ever it's kind of a m of my community cuz anybody can always like come back um as long as they're acting different yeah what about the as long as they're acting different see I mean all right the reason why I say that is because um so for instance nobody likes this but I have a strong stance on apologies and that I hate them I don't ever want to hear an apology I don't care about them ever they don't mean anything to me if you did something bad as long as you've like fixed the behavior and you're not doing that thing then we're generally chill so like there's been a lot of people that have been involved in weird stuff with me but then like they they go off they do their thing and they come back and it's like okay cool as long as you don't do it again like we're fine like it's all good yeah I'm sorry you feel that way it's not your fault Stephen it's not your fault okay gotcha you said plenty of negative stuff positive stuff and negative stuff about Hassan yeah this is my podcast I get to get you to force you to say positive things what do you love I'm All About Love let's go back to Gilling me on the RW word stuff you're going to make me compliment Assan this is going to be a harder conversation than that all right you're there's we're going to get you to feel emotion okay uh so he's for people who don't know he's another popular political streamer I think you had uh as the kids called it a bridge burning over Bernie Sanders I don't know my research is very limited on this but um what do you respect and love most about Hassan he puts in a lot of work when he was like growing his stream from 2,000 concurrent viewers to 15,000 he was streaming like it was like 12 hours a day like every single day um so that was Adam did a lot of work um he does seem to be pretty good at networking and like socializing and making the correct friends and connections to continue to build his business what about him as a political thinker I know you don't think highly of him on that on that regard but I think that's unfair I think that's unfair I I honestly want to push back on that because okay I have zero respect for him as a political thinker there's not going to be almost anything oh I will say I I admire the fact that through no actual capability or ability of his own he manages to wind up at some of the correct answers just cuz he's Towing the line so good job for him on that he's got a lot of correct opinions just he has no idea why so I think that's undeserved I think that's too harsh Man Okay the reason I bring that up because I feel like there is a deep Grudge in there somehow so you're the the father now so since you're so old the grandfather of the uh political debate on stream on live stream political debater so there could be some Grudge about that split that happened or not enough credit given or all that kind of stuff I just I just think he's somebody that has a a left leaning ideology that's different than yours he was a Bernie supporter right and I guess you were not can you can you explain to me where the division is he exemplifies everything that I absolutely hate about politics which is shallow engagement uh heavily ideologically driven and you're not ideologically driv absolutely not that's what we're talking about like the free thinker in the real meaning of that word yeah so the way let me let me qualify issue thinking let me qualify what I mean when I say that um I spent a lot of time unfortunate time delving into the boring world of philosophy I spent a lot of time thinking about like what are my ethical positions how do I feel about myself the people around me and how that relates to the world around me and then from all of these positions I think you might have used the phrase first principles earlier um from these kind of like first principles out of that is where all of my political positions are built out of like full stop so if you ask me a question like how do you feel about like the right to own a firearm or how do you feel about social Healthcare like we can walk through well this is how I feel about it as like a thing from the government this is where the government gets its power this is ethically how groups of people are supposed to function this is morally how we relate to each other and personally this is how I feel like like I'll be able to do every single political belief back there it's not like I'm telling you like if I were to ask kassan um what do you feel about this political topic he's going to tell me what progressives are supposed to say I don't know what he thinks about it I don't know don't you think that's a cynical take why is he just because his views coin side with the mainstream narrative mainstream viewpoints of progressive thinkers this I mean why does that mean he's not thinking because his engagement with every subject is incredibly shallow 100% predictable like I could write like a I could probably program a script to like give you every single potential answer you could have to any single question you could give him again I think that's pretty cynical take okay it could be the case that his brain perfectly aligns with every single M no but I don't know if you know it it's perfectly aligns cuz I think you're just taking a very select just like streamers do of each other a very select slice that represents the perfect alignment as opposed to looking at a person struggling with ideas and thinking through ideas and then giving him a pass like a lot of people like I give you a pass on just the fact that you say a lot of crazy shit on stream for drama like which is I don't say things for drama it might be dramatic but I mean you've evolved as a fish evolves legs you've evolved a mechanism about which creates controversy sure that that you could say it's not intention but it happens I think okay sure the extremist kind of learn that kind of thing and so I'm sure Hassan does the same kind of stuff and so like underneath it there's still a thinking being that's that's contending with political ideas you don't think so he does a really good job at hiding it there are other political figures that I really don't like that I wouldn't say the same thing about so like I don't know if you V written in there I'm like okay that's a person that he also split out of my community and grew to something and know he hates me and he's an anti-an Community they all hate tell me something you love about Vos I can tell you a lot of things about Vos I think Vos legitimately thinks through a lot of his political positions um I admire or did admire that he has like his own like positions that he would take sometimes contrary to people further left than him um he's got some positions that don't fit his ideology kind of at all like he's his own independent thinker rhetorically he's very effective he was willing to sit down and do research for like his debates and everything um he would spend a lot of time practicing like his rhetorical Effectiveness and navigating conversations uh he intentionally and purposefully built like a community that exemplified his values yeah I've I've got a lot I don't we we are completely split and hate each other now but like I have a lot why why why ha first of all hate is a strong why why the hate okay I don't hate him but he hates me because we had a couple of really big debates what happened well one had to do with whether or not you should live your values and can you give me the story that's a charitable interpretation I always give charal interpretation you don't I absolutely do don't wait name one time I have't 5 minutes ago you talking about everything I said about is true there is no Steel Man there okay that's not charitable that's I'm sorry if you can if you can prove me wrong I would love for you to do it okay I'm using my gut instinct usually when somebody feels strongly about another person in that way it's not coming from a place of data and reason it's coming from a place of emotion it's coming from a place of resentment and Grudge and all that kind of stuff there's deep there's emotions deep in there so the gotu is hiding the G the gotu is a is a surface of an iceberg and there's a deep ocean underneath that you yourself have not explored I disagree but I understand why and La is actually a doorway the young La is a doorway for you to explore the depths of get into that ocean to find my fish my pre- evolve form yeah um I understand why you think the way you do and you should you shouldn't believe me and I understand that because if somebody told me the same thing I'd think you probably just really don't like this person for a reason or two I I understand why you think that way okay the reality is though for any political person that I disagree with like I can give them a fair Shake it's one of the few things I think I do exceedingly well on my stream even with hisan there's been drama that he's been involved in and I've like very when I'm involved in drama he'll always throw me under the bus but when he's involved in stuff I'll always like oh like I think his son was right here or I think that he meant this um there was a there was a thing that came up once we're on live stream fail he was getting roasted because he referred to somebody he used the expression shit skin to refer to somebody's like the way they looked and I have only ever heard that in the context of forch people talking about like Indians or like black people like it's a racial thing but I could tell the context and everything that he was saying he was insulting some guy I think he was called like Insel Virg whatever he was going for like acne skin I think that's what he meant when he said it and there were a whole bunch of people that were insulting like oh my god did he just say racist ter I was like no I don't think he was racist I think he was like he was just reaching for words and that's what came out um so like that's an example of me being Char okay but didn't you criticize him for something I I was trying to I like Googled why the hell you guys split out cuz I thought your friends you should be like split up Harris video but go ahead what were is that what is that the so so did I feel like you criticized them over something and I okay this is very vague memory but you criticize him over something and I felt that criticism wasn't charitable was it Pete Budd stuff yeah Pete budich yes yes yes yes yes yeah so I've said this a million times but there no amount of context or no amount of nuances is ever acceptable people I don't think Hanan is homophobic but I think the comments made about Pete booty judge were really homophobic that's what he said right yeah and there were a lot of people making a lot of comments that made me really uncomfortable about Pete Buddha judge that was insane to me spurred by the comments of Hassan no but it was an environment of progressives all the progressives were attacking Pete and I felt like his gayness became like the subject of why why throw Hassan under the bus for that CU he was jumping along with all of those types of like insults you don't think you've done the same kind of stuff if I do call me out it and I'll probably say I shouldn't have done that that's what the r word was about that's a good call out yeah no but like you're friend like you should privately tell them right like hey well no by then we were sworn enemies so so that wasn't the reason no no no it was over a KLA Harris video sworn enemies he hates me what am I listen for all of these people I will accept them back into my life if they ever want to come back in at any point but usually they're the ones that if they correct themselves right no not I'm not expecting anybody here's so here's the deal with Vos and ass son these are like the three we're the three guys onine none of us will talk to each other um Hassan because he won't give clout to anybody and Vos because um he thinks I'm bad faith and then neither of them will talk to me because they both hate me you guys should go like on a camping trip together it's like broke back M but three-way and just like rejoin refind appre for each other honestly just from the internet perspective for me as a just stepping into this world um there's some aspect to which you have a responsibility I hate that word you have an you have an opportunity I I wish you guys would kind of be the beacon of like uh forgiveness and friendship and like camaraderie and that I agree and even if we disagree it would be really good content for us to AR shit talk like friends shit talk sure versus not like the fact that you guys don't talk to each other like I would love for you to shit talk publicly with the camaraderie always there like there's love in the in the beginning love in the end but you beat the shit out of each other in the middle and that's what live streaming is for political discourses that's that's great political discourse versus I think what underlies it some jealousy and so on with you get this many follow I just want to make sure you're clear to your AUD everybody has to your audience I'm sure you have flaws and I'm just not in this Dynamic hard to find you know cuz I'm your only flaw is you're too modest yeah so what why did you guys split up because I I I would love it honestly just let me just put that idea out there for you guys to to to make up and yeah it's out there of course it's everybody talks meos anisan it's crazy that like the three largest like political debate left leaning people online like can't do any type of content or collaboration at all it's so stupid yeah what was the reason you guys split up the the com Harris so Hassan's entry into kind of like the twitch political debate world was in I think 2018 I think he did a debate with Charlie Kirk and he reached out to me to kind of like review that debate to like go on to go over it on stream and he came on we went over it and then we kind of a friendship developed we hung out in real life I think when I came to La I think I slept on his couch we played with his dog we were like kind of friends um and as time went on I think he was a little bit more um he was farther left than he let on so like I was a Social Democrat he was a Social Democrat but back in those days like 2018 when people said they were a Social Democrat they really meant socialist but they just didn't want to say it so he was farther left than me and we had a lot of deep divides in our approach to politics um whereas like I was very much like a first principles this is my whole political position and he was very much kind of like a this is like the political ideology I'm involved in and this is kind of like the field that I kind of like navigate in so there were a couple instances where these divides would be laid very bare one was when I it was either him or The Young Turks I think it was him there was a shooting in a neighborhood where very young black child gets killed by a white shooter and they did a video about like hate crimes and how hate crimes are on the rise between races and white people are evil and blah blah blah not not that but like white people committing hate crimes against black people and I remember saying to him I was like hey we don't have all the data yet for this it feels really bad B to make videos about this beforehand CU this is the same type of shit that happens at airports you know uh is there a thing going on was it a brown person are they Muslim it's Islamic extremism we see this played out so many times in recent history probably not a good idea to jump to conclusions and he's like well no you don't understand like it's not that big a deal whatever and obviously as The Story Goes Taylor's old as time the data comes out it was just an errant shot there was like gang violence shot goes out of nowhere hits a kid in the car it wasn't like a hate crime the guy was trying to kill a kid but yeah we basically we we bump up against a few kind of political disagreements like this and an annoying thing is happening in my community where Hassan is like the serious political figure cuz he's from The Young Turks and I'm just kind of like I do politics but I also game and anytime I criticize Assan people like Destiny you need to be more respectful he does this fulltime if you're going to bring criticisms you need to be like really well read and researched because he's got a you know more serious whatever which I thought was ridiculous so by the way for people who don't know he worked at The Young Turks which is like the largest left-leaning YouTube channel probably or us at least at the time yeah so finally he did a video on skip ahead to some more minor disagreement he does a video on kamla Harris he calls it Cala Harris and it's like seven or eight horrible things about kamla Harris and I'm like okay I know at least one or two of these things are not fully accurate so I'm going to do all the research I'm going to have all the sources and we're going to have a long conversation about it so that now when I provide criticism to him it's not going to be like this horrible like just me saying something flippantly or whatever it's going to be like substantial criticism so I was on a plane ride um JFK to Orlando whatever uh flying to Sweden to visit my wife and on the plane I review all the video all the data do all the research and I write everything I'm was like okay I get to my um my wife's dad's house and I'm at the table we're having a conversation like hey we should talk about the kamla Harris stuff and he's like okay well let's do it and we go over it and I'll leave to the audience to watch the video enough people will say this I feel pretty confident saying this I was pretty reasonable pretty measured pretty calm the whole time and I think he started to get increasingly irritated that I was levying like more and more serious criticisms at like the quality of work that he did um probably because he felt a little bit intimidated I think by my willingness to like dive through political stuff there' been a couple of awkward blowups where like on um there's like a show called the Raj Royale where sometimes politics would come up and Hassan would kind of try to explain something and there was another person one time on the show that made the joke it's like instead of Hassan taking 10 minutes to explain this cantin he just come here and explain it in 30 seconds and he like exploded that he got so fucking mad at that um so yeah I think that when I made that kind of call out or critique of him over the KL Harris stuff he's probably feeling like increasingly irritated threatened agitated and then that's kind of what began the huge split from our so you don't think you were a dick at all I don't think so in that conversation um especially given that like at that point because this is still 2018 or 20 this might be 2019 I'm still known at that point as being very aggressive towards conservatives or all writers oh gota yeah so and with lefties is what I call them I think I'm being like very gentle like my conversation start with conservatives like you're a fucking idiot you're so don't like that's how I'm like doing so like with him I'm like well don't you think that like this is like a little bit of like an inconsistent presentation how like I feel going be nice but I always leave to the audience they can go and watch that kamla video kamla Harris video Destiny of son if they think that I was being a d but a lot of people watching said I was being pretty gentle so well let me say yeah as a new fan of this space I hope you guys make up and I hope you guys fight it out in the space of discourse and ideas me too and also with empathy understanding what the strength of the other person is what their buttons are and and you know there's like an unspoken rule that you don't press the buttons that you don't need to unless you're doing it mutually and it's fun because you know you it's fun to piss each other off so yeah course that's kind of like what friends do you don't cross a certain line U but then other than that you fight it out okay let's step back one other super interesting aspect of your worldview is your big supporter of Biden can you explain what you love about Biden do you love Biden more than Sean Carroll or less Sean Carol is just like in another world of gotcha admiration I feel like I'm culturally appropriating You by saying gotcha now but it's so convenient it's an easy word you're just I now we're on the same wavelength okay we're synchronizing that's good I mean it is really interesting because even the people that support bid usually don't say they love sort of they don't support it strongly you know ideologically philosophically the reason why I like Biden is cu he's really committed to this bringing the left and right together which is something we so desperate certain need in the country and his you know statements over and over again of like I'm not uh the Democrat president or the Republican president I'm the president of the United States his desire to bring Republicans together to work on things like the infrastructure bill um that's so incredibly needed and I have a huge amount of respect and admiration for him for trying to push through on that message do you think then it's unfortunate that he made that comment about magga magga Republicans yeah I mean I forget what the comment was but it's Maga Republicans are not good people kind of thing I watched the full video and he's right there is this toxic aspect and it's hard to call out because they're always going to spend like oh he hits our Republicans he's not if you watch the quote he's very specifically calling out like this this group of people that think that the election was fraudulent is it clear what he meant by we can bring it up all right this is oh no uh oh but I remember watching our stream was like if you said it yeah that's bad you can probably like YouTube magga Republicans Biden but like it feels like it's pretty clear he's talking about the people that are like election denying to much of what's happening in our country today is not normal Donald Trump and the magga Republicans represent an extremism that threatens the very foundations of our Republic now I want to be very clear listen to this great clear up front not every Republican not even the majority of Republicans are magga Republicans not every Republican Embraces their extreme ideology I I know CU I've been able to work with these mainstream Republicans but there's no question that the Republican party today is dominated driven and intimidated by Donald Trump and the magga Republicans and that is a threat to this country I disagree with that man he didn't Clearly say extremist ideology he didn't say the people that doubt the validity of the election I mean that's Donald Trump no but there's that's all the candidates that Donald Trump is supporting how many what is it like 40 50 how many candidates right now that are Mega candidates are elections but there's uh you know 80 million or whatever people voted for Donald Trump you could say that's the magga Republicans so to me it sounded like he was referring to not even the majority I mean that that's one nice helpful clarifying statement but it's basically there's the mainstream Republicans and then there's those that voted for Donald Trump that's the way I heard it okay and like so maybe should have done a better job at clarifying but yeah I feel like there's like a clear there is a huge problem with this group of Americans that think that like the election is stolen I feel like that's what he's trying to call no matter if that's what he meant even flirting with that line is not a person who's bringing people together I feel like the extending a hand to the like most I've worked with republicans in Congress not all not even a majority of Republicans are like this no but why say not the majority of Republicans that like this say like we are like a we're one country we believe the same thing so like focus on the uniting part versus say maybe he does before and after that was 50 seconds okay but that you never the point is you never say something like that listen like that you you've spoken about the Bosnia speech which is your favorite of his yeah I went back to and listen to it before I move to that just on this it's really hard for him to call out that group of like election deniers I think without it always feeling like well why call them out because it's arguably one of the most destructive forces that exist in this country today did it destroy anything they were trying to did it though it didn't did it so does that mean we don't call it out we wait till next time no because calling it out is giving fuel to the division like the people that doubted the validity of the election that's anger that's frustration with the other side you heal that as opposed to saying all those people that believed that at any time are idiots they're American I mean they don't think the election was real I don't know if Biden has the ears of these people at all I don't know what he can do for there's people that believe the same thing on the in 2016 with the Russian hacking right there's this hold on yes that is a super not fair comparison there were definitely the mainstream Democrat opinion was that Russian um intrusion in terms of like social media and stuff happened but there was never a claim that like the election was stolen no or at least I don't know of any mainstream Democrat that supported that Donald Trump is not just saying there was interference and blah blah blah Donald Trump is literally saying the election was literally stolen that vote boxes were ballot boxes were hidden that vote tallies were manipulated that I think the claim is there's a huge Gulf of difference between the two so you can attack Donald Trump for that yeah I believe it's not the words of a uniter to attack people that believe that you could argue maybe it's okay but especially not being super clear about that about who you're referring to when you say magga Republicans okay cuz Maga is a hat and a slogan that refers to whatever the number is 70 million people whoever they voted for Donald Trump like of all the Republicans that consider Mega Republicans what percentage of them do you think believe the election was stolen I feel like that number is I don't have the P but I feel like number is like probably more than 70% what's what's the magga Republican maybe I'm not like a trump like a trump supporting Republican magga Republican they're there for Trump what's the difference between somebody that voted for Trump and uh Maga Republican and a magga republican so my mom is a Maga Republican if Trump ran independently and Des santz ran under the Republican ticket my mom would vote for Trump She'll follow him to the end of the Earth that's like a Maga Republican I think it's easy to mistake that distinction in these kinds of political speeches CU to me anybody who voted for Trump can easily in the in the context of the speech be interpreted as a MAG of Republican gotcha I understand what you're saying maybe he could have been more clear but like I think in listening to that like I think it's pretty obvious who he's talking about but I guess if you're have an emotional response to it I can understand the emotional response but there's a lot of people I don't have an emotional response I just don't like I think uh I'm with what is it Michelle Obama they go low we go high meaning like to me a uniter doesn't participate in sure uniter might not but a leader has to be able to accurately assess the situation before him and make people aware of what's going on you mean all the impeachment trials all the censoring from social media all of that didn't do the job that's not his job I don't know about censoring that mechanism his job is to inspire a nation to unite a nation how can he do that when half the people don't believe that he was even legitimately elected like I think he's done a good job at working on legislation and doing stuff that hopefully benefits all Americans but I think it's important to recognize that like there is a contingent of Americans that don't even believe like this iszy there plenty of people that recognize that and are fighting that and are constantly screaming that from the rooftops his job is to be the inspiring figure that makes the majority of Americans be proud for him to be a president of of the nation they love and that's what the uniting aspect is is you remind people that we are one and we love this country we love the ideas that it represents does that in other parts of that speech it's like a 20-minute speech isn't it but that's that's a fuckup you just don't participate in that division anyway I I I understand I understand I just wanted to push back on the saying one of the his strength is that he's uh he's uniting but yes that that is an ideal that is a goal is a great one and he is one that um espoused that goal uh for a long time do you think um what else so from policy perspective and so on I thought the way he's handled Ukraine and everything thus far has been almost perfect I think did a really good job um at at the political maneuvering at bringing other countries into the fold at establishing clearly like what our mission was in relation to Ukraine I thought he did a good job there um I admire him for pulling out of Afghanistan even it was a little bit rough on the edges like we got out and we're gone no American lives are lost um the uh domestic policy he's passed more major legislation than I think anybody thought possible um the green energy stuff with the last bill the infrastructure bill um a lot of the coron virus relief I thought was really good especially the expansion of the child tax credit um so from a policy perspective foreign and domestic I think he's been successful rhetorically I think he's generally been above board in terms of like not attacking people being too divisive um he's trying to bring people together and work on them what do you think about the sort of popular in the media criticism of his mental decline do you think he's experiencing know he's an guy but do you think I mean yeah maybe a little bit but he's still doing a good job so you know not from a speech perspective you mean from a policy perspective yeah I'm analyzing it as a job yeah from speech perspective maybe not the greatest but um yeah I mean he's definitely what is he like 80 81 how old is he I lose track after so many years yeah MH but you did say that he's probably going to run in 2024 and he's probably going to win did I say that that he's probably going to win no way did I say that somewhere he's probably going to run okay uh who knows who will win but I think um I feel like the incumbent Advantage is so strong you really going to throw that away like think it's been like one or two times in history in the US right where like the non-incumbent they the parties put somebody else up yeah I mean the the concern is like the just the age and the the the mental decline just the the wear and tear of the campaign all that kind of stuff all the speech you have to make the debates and all that kind of stuff yeah I guess we see what happens what the least excited uh I mean two years for now was a long time and his current mental state he could run and do it he could do a passible job in two years man I don't know I've seen videos of Bill Clinton recently he's looking pretty rough um you know if Biden is looking a lot more rough worse for wear in two years than maybe they actually do have to dig out another person uh for run you who knows what do you think about Trump when he won in 2016 I think is when you came to fruition politically speaking so what do you think his winning the 2016 election represents so for me Trump the the reason why I got into politics um was Trump was like this new epistemic force in American politics that like You' kind of have to like flirt with facts before even if you wanted to be non-factual he super didn't care lying was like a first language to him just like and speaking in terms of like the the way that he used language to just say to you what he felt like you needed to hear to support him and not care at all about what is going on about yeah that that's that's what Trump represented to me in terms of like things that I cared about he also represents a lot more obviously that there was this undercurrent of American opinion that a lot of people didn't know still existed and it did he got elected um that the Overton window was misidentified by even a large amount of the Republican party that populism was a lot more popular than a lot of people figured you know yeah there's a lot that I guess you represent on you do you think Trump should have been banned from Twitter can you make the case for and against it so you're a big supporter of free speech yeah so the case in favor of do you think he should be brought back as Elon tweet yeah because if gets brought back there's a higher chance it I'll be brought back so I'm supporting that all the way thank you Elon unban my account um so because you called me week spine I'm going to have to message Elon okay omnidestiny it was a verified Twitter account Omni Destiny no no I'm just kidding why'd you get banned from Twitter Destiny I don't know I'll add that to Elon I saw that there was a screenshot of you uh referring to the rape of somebody okay that was on an older Twitter account and that was a bad tweet you have multiple Twitter account so you're trying to um go around the bands that you keep getting okay hold on you're slandering me a lot right now okay let's get the facts straight okay I don't even remember why my first account got banned but it was a wild account I tweeted some wildly inappropriate things you regret I don't like that word I'm going to give the answer that most people give it's like I don't regret it because I learned a lot so I'm glad I had the bad experiences that I did why don't you like the word regret I think if we look at where we are how do you feel about determinism uh I believe in hard the hardest of determinism that's who I am okay so who I am today is the culmination of everything that's occurred in the past I believe you speaking of sorry to inter uh I believe in you speaking about regret is a nice way to communicate that in this deterministic world you've analyzed the acts of the past and you're no longer that person yeah of course for sure that's what that's what regret usually means okay thanks for giving me the human explanation okay true so in that sense there's a lot of things I've done that I regret oh you're what are you you're not human you're a bot NPC is my preferred all right um I wish I would have been smart enough at the time to not have to have had made those mistakes okay there you go good job um but yeah obviously really dumb really crazy off-the-wall tweets um but that account got banned but then I made another account called I can't believe I'm giving you a history my Twitter accounts another account called Omni Destiny it's an honor um and that was my I got verified I was cool they let me have that account cuz originally they banned it and I said appeal and I was like oh let me have one more and back then Twitter was cool and they're like okay go for it and that account last for a long time and I don't actually know 100% why that account got banned um I believe that the tweet that showed up in the final I got banned for hate speech and it was because I was there was a picture that I tweeted with three different alt writers that are kind of like Neo-Nazi people and they were all uh like mixed race people and I said like the new altright looks like a Disney Channel original movie in terms of racial composition and somehow that got flagged for instigating violence against minorities I think I think that's the tweet that got me banned cuz I think that's what showed up in the final report but I don't know maybe there were other reasons because nobody ever communicates but ever since that account went under it's just been ban evading ever since so oh ban evading ever since so all my new accounts have got banned just get banned because they finally figure out it's me and then they ban a there's like one dude at Twitter HQ who's like constantly looking for yeah my new accounts and they get me yeah yeah anyway yeah so post post Trump World um do you think okay I mean this oh should he be banned oh you asked me to make both cases um should he be banned I mean damn dude when you're tweeting out shit that's arguably leading stuff like January 6th I can understand why because it's like what else is this wild dude going to Tweet out like is he going to start instigating other violent events so I'm sympathetic towards the like okay well he can't just be here saying stuff like this that's insane we're going to ban him um I'm syp because it's instigating actual physical violence in the physical world yeah like if I would to Tweet stuff like that I would get banned probably on the flip side this is the president of the United States it seems like he's like doing presidential decree by social media sometimes like is it really right that one public or private I should say one private company can um like erase the president of the United States words from the eyes of a lot of Americans that are using these social media feeds um and one big one which I for sure am against is the permanent ban yeah I don't like that I hate that even in my community if somebody comes back after like a year like I mean did you just compare yourself to the president of the United States no I compar myself to Twitter Banning the president of United States let me put it this way if I banned Donald Trump in my chat room I'd unban him in a year a year yeah what's the process for unbanning Donald Trump what would he have to do usually people send me an email they're like listen I did this stuff I'm sorry I was dumb I'll give him another chance but a year what if they send an email a month later usually I'll unban him that's usually my I ban pretty quickly my community but if you ever ask softy yeah I us should let him back yeah I'm very well because I used to be the worst type of internet person and I think I'm a little bit better than I used to be so now that you're older yeah now that I'm matured yeah of course age bestows a wisdom that just can't be gotten any other way what's your sense in general is there something interesting you could say about your view on Free Speech it seems like one of those terms that's also over overused to mean a lot of different things what does it mean to you if you have a democratic style of governance you are entrusting people with one of the most awesome and radical of responsibilities and that's saying that you're going to pick the people that are going to make some of the hardest decisions in all of human history if you're going to trust people to vote correctly you have to be able to trust them to have open and honest dialogue with each other whether that's Nazis or KKK people or whoever talking um you have to believe that your people are going to be able to rise above and make the correct determinations when they hear these types of speeches and if you're so worried that somebody's going to hear a certain political figure and they're going to be completely radicalized instantly then what that tells me is that you don't have enough faith in humans for democracy to be a viable institution which is fine you can be anti-democratic but you I don't think you can be pro-democracy and anti- Free Speech within reason so what's the within reason so I mean not you can't post like child porn or something on Twitter people try to get you on that stuff or like direct calls to violence or probably not you shouldn't be tweeting out like we're going to meet up tomorrow and go bomb blah blah blah probably not so do you think it's okay to allow racism and anti-Semitism and uh hate speech hate speech Yes because that's can be very broadly defined um I can understand there being some basic rules of like no slurs on like a platform that gets into like acceptable forms of moderation or like excessive harassment and bullying I can understand um but past that when when the when the moderation becomes ideological I get a little bit nervous because you know for for there's a whole other host yeah there of course it's all a gray area but when it feels like ideology has seeped into the censorship not good yeah which it's so fascinating to think especially now that Elon bought Twitter how do you engine near A system that prevents ideology from seeping in and nevertheless is able to uh create a platform that has healthy conversations because if you have one guy who's just screaming nonsense non-stop it it has this effect where the quiet voices at the back of the room are silenced yeah so like that that's what you usually don't talk about like if you let one annoying loud person in that's actually censoring the voice of a lot of people that would like to speak but they don't get a chance that's one of the things especially around like trans discourse I have to constantly do that like reminder for my audience is so like when I'm dealing with these types people on the internet a lot of them might seem really crazy A lot of these types of people might seem insane but like in the real world outside of like the crazy Twitter activist world like the vast majority of people you're meeting from LGBT communities are like the coolest normalist people all they want is to like right to live their life in the way they want to and to be like unobstructed and like yeah but people will get this impression of like an online activist like a vegan or LGBT person or whatever and then they think that every single person in real life is like that and it's a really negative stereotype and then even the other people in that group oh is mol coming over oh yeah asked I don't know if that's her okay uh Molina just joined us what were we talking about was it interesting you were saying that you were going to talk to Elon about getting at Omni Destiny the verified Twitter account unbanned I said that's so that sounds like a lie that's so gracious of you I can't even believe you would do that for me and then you admitted that you tried to evade the band multiple times which I'm sure would be very uh looked upon you know I heard that in Norway and their prison system they don't actually punish you for trying to escape jail cuz that's like the natural human thing to do they hug you what do they I don't know if they but they don't punish you cuz of course you're trying to be free that's all I'm trying to be on Twitter I'm just trying to be free oh that's the natural human that's the natural of course it's a bny you're not a destructive force you're just no I'm a posit I'm a Force for good that's why all my accounts only get banned for bading Ving I don't get banned for doing bad things and I'm a progressive shell I'm like far left I love like Progressive classes this is what you criticize Assan for being I show them from a place of first principles not from a Mindless AI echoing kind of thing you know okay see you're freeth thinking bot I got yeah exactly all right cool uh well I'm sure we'll return to some politics that was beautiful uh Mia can can you tell us about yourself you're also a fellow streamer what's your story yes I stream and I started streaming because I met him basically kind of and but I don't do the politics I do like travels or talk about relationships talk to my audience basically um you're from that part of the world right Sweden ex so did you escape from prison and they didn't that was Norway you just men Norway that's different I actually really I've been to Sweden a bunch of times I love it there's a tech sector there that's really like flourishing where did you go which city I went to Stockholm I think I gave a few lectures there there's a vibrant Tech sector it was cool and people are super nice yeah we're friendly we're not like very deep like we don't really have much deep conversation it's like a meta conversation there's not many intellectuals that come from Sweden we don't really speak very highly ourselves we kind of like just chill all the time we don't make a scene we don't we're just like you know do you know what the name for that is there's a specific name for it it's the yeah the I think yeah oh there's a philosophy behind it when you're part of like Sweden or Norway you like you don't talk too highly of yourself cuz it seemen as kind of like rude like think of like America except the exact opposite you don't even really want to like you don't want to make yourself into a victim too much you don't want to be too much of anything you're just like sticking to the to the group don't make big scene about yourself but that said you came here and you were you put yourself in front of the camera and became a streamer yes do you understand how weird that is for my friends in Sweden you I just talk about myself and just like make a big deal about myself for hours every day was that like terrifying did you have anxiety about that no cuz I don't see them but then I come back and I'm like oo so what do you feel like when you're actually streaming you feel like you're just alone in a room um oneon-one typee of thing no I see I see chat I'm thinking oh they're like a little fairies they're not really real they're just like out there I don't know what they look like I just see little names and they're just cute just colors you know talking to little fairies inside your head I do is that how you feel about chat they're demons for me but they're demons okay I are not fairies are they so is chat a source of stress or happiness like is there a compl no for me it's a source of happiness I've been very intentional with like the construction of my community so I'm really happy with where it's at how are you able to actually have deep political discourse while playing a video game at the same time I have a really good chat room in terms of like the way that people engage in conversations like I was one of the earliest people to embrace the philosophy of like I am in total control of what people watch me think that like I have a high level of responsibility for how they conduct themselves and that if I conduct myself in a certain way I can expect a certain level of conduct from them and for the most part it's like worked pretty well for the past you know N9 or 10 years yeah what about the actual playing of the game like you're able to parallelize the brain like oh like it seems like Factoria seems like a super complex game yeah I don't actually think that's possible I don't think multitasking for a human brand is possible um if you see me playing a game usually what's happening is the conversation is like I've had it a million times so I'm not thinking about it I've automated that or if the conversation is very challenging um then if you watch me if you really watch what's happened in the game I'm probably just running around in circles because I have to think about the conversation okay because with Factoria it looks like a lot of stuff is going on sometimes yeah so I it's hard for uh a person who hasn't played the game to detect that you're not do that come off as like you're super intelligent and multitask or does it come off as like he's not interested in this conversation at all yeah yeah there's a coolness to it like when you're not paying attention like if if you're looking elsewhere like you're checking your phone you're too cool for this conversation there's a sense like that yeah the reality is though is if you watch it was easier to see in Minecraft cuz in Minecraft when there was a challenging conversation if you watch me play I'm literally just running around and jumping in circles because I have to think about the conversation 100% I can't do a complicated task and think about the conversation or like that people always joke in my chat like oh no the notepad came out if it's a really challenging conversation I'll get rid of the game and I'll bring out a notepad and I'll start writing stuff down to keep track of what's going on yeah so what kind of stuff do you stream so advice you talk about yeah like either I talk to chat or I travel around basically like we have a conversations where we like um go to countries I've been to like Italy I was in Italy for like one and a half months just like traveling around alone going to cities like having like my camera with me and like streaming for hours where's the where's the coolest place you've been to ever it's probably New Zealand New Zealand I think so yeah after it's probably going to be Italy I think because I like history and yeah also both history cuz New Zealand is also beautiful mhm both natural beauty and historical Beauty yeah for sure I think I just really like the like the Polynesian sort of culture I think it's very interesting like the ocean people and it's just really beautiful people are very relaxed chill they're very far away which is interesting as well cuz whenever they talk about politics or they talk about um just like the world it feels really far away so where's home for you is Austin home it's home for me so a human being is home yeah we travel we've lived in a lot different place and traveled around so that's what you think of home as like I think so yeah I mean if there if they're going to be a place it's probably going to be like my childhood places probably yeah like my old country house or something like that we don't have it anymore but like that's that's like home for me I guess so how' you guys meet each other you're currently married yes to each other yeah yeah to each other yeah just making sure we're on the same page all right cool how' you guys meet I was watching his YouTube stuff like 2018 I think like because it was the Swedish election around that time and I was interested in politics and then um I think he said in one of his videos that he had an Instagram and that he needed people to stop dming him that wasn't cutipie and then I messaged him and said am I a cutipie and then you're a pie in like two minutes and then uh that that's when I was in New Zealand and uh I guess you wanted to escape America or like laay for a little bit and uh New Zealand where were you mentally there like cuz we've talked to this timeline where's 2018 was it 1819 where was the low point or that was way earlier low Point carbon cleaning that was like 200 2010 oh okay 2018 was probably your Peak what do you every day now was my Peak what do you mean that was my Peak why would you say that that okay nobody ever admits being past their Prime just just so well I mean my Prime is still it was around it was probably around the time where were getting a lot of left days through your community and you were really like thinking about that they would go too far maybe that was I think that was still when Hassan and Vos were both in my community exactly so I would say it feel it feels like there was not really like much issues when it come to like to your stuff or like your work stuff back then oh something we didn't talk about is it like um there were no Politics on Twitch I exclusively inhabited that place for like two years cuz nobody else did it because it was a really toxic environment for politics so for a couple of years as it grew like the I kind of grew the whole space cuz it wasn't nobody was doing it yet what did that look like you're having like political debates political discourse yeah mainly like going into YouTube people to try to argue with them or just doing Politics on stream like reading stories researching stuff talking about stuff but there's not like other people on Twitch to debate about politics because there was no politics it was yeah was there a debate in the space of Communism socialism social democ Democrats kind of like this are you trying to outline your own position during that time I think it was mainly me fighting against conservatives because it was like Trump stuff and then it was coming off the back of like there was this movement called gamergate and there was just all this anti sjw stuff on the internet and I was like the sjw like the progressive that was fighting on the Progressive side of things so I think that's what I was known for but I was fighting with people off of twitch because on Twitch there weren't very many political discussions happening so you were holding the sjw flag yeah uh to what to what degree do you still hold it like what's the best what's the Steelman case for sjw I mean like I'm still very much that sjw from 2018 2019 but the positions have moved so much F farther left that I don't some people may not call me that anymore I'm not sure it depends on who I'm talking so basically what is a social justice Warrior like being sensitive to the experience of others yeah being sensitive and empathetic towards the experience of others and then trying to build a better world that like suits as many different types of people as possible while being like aware of like their needs okay uh so you guys met from what's your from your perspective is that did she she she telling lies is it accurate No it's pretty accurate accurate okay when did you guys actually meet I flew out in 2019 19 yeah like in February yeah basically there's like weird stuff happening in La I just come off of kind of a weird not kind of sort of relationship and I just wanted to like go away for a while um another company reached out to me and they had like a fun streaming device and they said they'd sponsor a trip if I went somewhere and I was like oh well I know this person I know a couple people in New Zealand Molina's one of them like I'll go to New Zealand New Zealand it'll be fun and uh yeah I did that for two weeks do you guys believe in love I feel like you you lack the Goa got us into this I'm not sure the degree to which you have human emotions I have quite a few okay from your perspective when did you when did you fall in love with M when did you fall in love with Mellie Mel um M the minute I saw her um I don't know we our first two weeks together were a lot of fun we had a lot of chemistry in person um I was kind of shocked I wasn't thinking about it cuz it was like we spent like a week together and you said I really want to tell you something and you were like you were like salling that for the longest time I think she's oh he said like I love you no he basically just said like I really like you and it never really happens that's what said and I was like and I thought hey I thought so let's still ran uh we said Trump getting banned from Twitter is that what we were talking about before oh yeah hey you agreed to me coming on here of course I'm going to be doing this so how long did I take two weeks you said took like a week no I don't know I think it was just like thing is my mind processes like information so quickly two weeks to somebody like you is actually like years for me so oh like me yeah so there was like a lot of like Factoria type of strategic thinking going on I was seeing like all the events like Doctor Strange or whatever in The Avengers when he's like seeing into all the Futures when you saw me you just saw the future yeah I was looking all them you're doing like some game theoretic simulation of all the possible outcomes yeah exactly okay um but no yeah it was probably pretty soon I realized we had a lot of chemistry and think before I left after my two weeks there I was like we need to make sure you get like a ticket to come visit me in the United States cuz it'll be fun and everything and then yeah kind of decided that last minute too it was like really like 5 hours before you fly back we kind of realized cuz it was kind of like meant as just like a one time thing and then that was it but we're like oh no this is a lot of fun we should probably hang out again oh so you realized you would miss each other yeah this was the one time thing The Melancholy side of Love okay when did you fall in lowest dude I thought he like hated me I don't know I thought not hated me she thinks I but no no I I remember like what what he said that he really liked me I was kind of a little shocked about that cuz I I don't know there was a lot of like random things happening in U it was a lot of fun but it was definitely like very interesting thing like things that happen um because I I was like around a lot of other people as well so I thought he might have had like a really bad time um but when he said that I was thinking about it more and then we spent like more time together like a week after that and then I felt like that was more like real and I think when he was about to leave I kind of realized like no I really like him do you guys ever say love to each other like I love you yeah of course yeah okay all right wasn't sure why would you ask that what has you said before that CU I haven't I haven't I don't think I've heard you speak the only time I've heard St talk about love is when you're like criticizing the the red pill Community saying they don't ever talk about love in relationships almost all the time I'm giving criticism to people like I said I'm kind of stepping in I'm very disconnected from my own emotional experience CU I'm trying to talk with in theirs so it's pretty rare that I'll talk about what is your own emotional experience exactly highly blunted I guess there's a lot okay what does that mean uh I mean what's the what's deep in there are are you is this just who you are genetically or are you running from something I think I have a pretty understanding of myself a lot of people make that accusation to me but I don't think I am okay this is just who you are it's just who I am yeah okay this is not childhood stuff like trauma um it's all sorted and done you figured it all out yeah in your old age as I grow every year I figure out more and more he did mention I think I heard this somewhere that this was a source of fights for the two of you the age thing I felt the agism throughout this whole conversation um he's basically he's saying that he gambles like with time he's just like I think she will be good later and then just like like an investment yeah yeah that's like what he's doing when this treasury bond matures I'm going to be able to cash out you think so far is the stocks going up or um it's tumultuous what that meanit oh my God yeah like Bitcoin crypto Mill all right if you guys don't mind one interesting aspect of your relationship is you're in an open relationship what's that like from a game theoretic simulation perspective what went into that calculation and like how does that like how that started yeah how did that start sure um the only relationships I've ever done has been open relationships since I was like in high school cuz I didn't really understand like why wouldn't you be able to like do other things with other people but then just like have your main partner basically so what what is an open relationship generally speaking that means you have one main partner non a monogamous relationship like you're somehow allowed like in different ways um you can see other people sexually sexually but like there is one main or it doesn't have to be there for some people but like I think it's probably easier and we probably don't really have time or the energy for like more than like one person to like really like what about like emotional really complicated there's a lot of complicated stuff going on under the hood there yeah um I think broadly speaking you've got like polyamorous relationships and you've got like open relationships where polyamorous is like oh I've got like three different girlfriends and we all hang out or sometimes even live together or three boyfriends whatever and then you've got like open relationships which is like oh you know like you can basically hook up with other people and then you've got like your main relationship and that's it I think ours is probably somewhere in the middle of that um to where like we've got like long-term friends some of them we hook up with and that's kind of how we yeah it's a delicate dance that uh explodes every six months on itself it does explode you guys fight over it we fight over some things yeah it things I think I think it's mostly because a lot of people can't handle it and they they agree to something and they realize that we're way too cool and then they get really obsessed and they think that they can like get in there and then it gets really dramatic mhm have you figured it out like I feel like we figure out things more and more like when it comes to like what's a good person for us to hang out and what's not a good person for us to hang out with or like I probably have more opinions on like who he hangs out with because he likes the fucking psychos yeah so you you like the he likes the N like The Crazy Ones like the baby trap sort of women that's the that's the ones and I don't like that cuz that affects me that affects your game theoretic calculation right uh you like to surround yourself like in general you've talked about with crazy people I say crazy and I really shouldn't it's humorous it's like yeah they're very unstable very can be unstable but people that are very unique like when I meet this person that's like not boring yeah not boring yeah and you said that you're progressively becoming not boring yourself no I think I'm pretty stable I don't let them affect me much but so you don't think they affect your no if I've said that I've said it joking I think I've like I've got my stuff like really well figured out it's what allows me to engage with people like this so easily because I can engage I can make them feel seen and heard and then if it gets insane I can cut off and I can be chill like very few things affect me in the long term do you guys experience jealousy usually like whenever I feel like he's not spending the like the amount of time that I'm asking for and he spends it on his video games or his stream or like he sees someone else like more than he sees me or something like that that would like not be good cuz then it affects like our relationship do you have a good sense of like is it literally time or or is it the energy put into the it's probably like if like if he's with me that like the attention in the time like when he hangs out with me and then there's also probably to time so if I feel like something else is distracting too much like it could be work or it could be a friend or it could be anything like if I feel like it starts to take away from like me then I'm having an issue with it I don't think he really cares much I guess the only jealousy you experience is probably when you feel like um like if I get upset about him seeing someone too much and then I go see someone more and then he's like why can't I go see my friend more like as much as you so like that's the sort of like thing that we're trying to navigate on I guess I think we um we we are like diametrically opposed sometimes in terms of how we view like engagement with people or engagement with the world sometimes so like on her end of the spectrum like a perfect week for her might be like being in a cabin watching like fireflies at night going hiking every morning going swimming at the beach because it's like you're taking in like the of nature you're like connected with yourself you're like very at peace everything is like chill and cool there's the wind the feeling of nature everything that's like her Peak living experience being press like and like my Peak experiences are like people trying to destroy my life like the challenge of like navigating really complicated discussion um like you know several different dramatic events unfolding that might end my career like these things are like very I like the stress and the action and the entertainment and everything is like very cool for me soone we're together she genely wants me to be like more chill but if I don't feel like I'm being like stimulated a lot then it's EAS for like my mind to wander orwhere else that's kind of the issue we have a very different way of like engaging with so how can you find happiness and the Stillness I feel like if we're just like aware of it and we're trying our best like whenever we like we're supposed to do this one thing so let's say that we want to go to New York and I'm like we should just like go out and do this one specific thing we try to find something that he enjoys doing like uh now that we're in Texas we can go shooting or do something fun that he enjoys then we can do it um and then I think like just like for me also to be aware um that like when he spends lots of time on crazy people it's not because he like loves them or wants to be with them it's just because he likes being like having having his life destroyed like you said which I don't really do so it's a completely different thing so like for me to like understand more like how he's thinking because it's so different from mine and for him to understand how I'm thinking about things and like what I prioritize in my life I think that's like how we navigate but I think it's good I think the differences can be good like when we're finding a way yeah well I think you're you're relatable more of a human I'm definitely very difficult to get along with like I always tell people that that like if you're dating me for like more than a few years like you get like an War like a war zone that you've survived absolutely you're like a veteran you get medals and stuff and it's always like I think there's probably been like six different I don't think she says it anymore but there are like six different times in our relationship where she's like is it always like this is this actually and like every next year the beginning of like you were lying about that it got you were not you were like no it's just like right now I'm having a huge argument online about saying the n word in private it's just going to be like this and I'm going to be streaming 24 hours a day and I'm like where like when are you going to come to bed it's been a week is this I did playing League come into into this uh a little bit clean I'm clean of League like six months right now what what do you uh hate about League I never got humans well speaking of which I my participation in League involved on the robot side good cuz that's that's an improvement cuz uh uh both Starcraft 2 and and League of Legends cuz open Ai and deep mind uh both participating in creating bots in those I was a professional Starcraft 2 player so I remember when the AI started to play it's interesting the types of restrictions that you would have to put on like a gaming robot to make it like functional and not totally unfair to the other side yeah to make it humanik yeah was that interesting to you to see AI be able to play those video games I think in some ways people think things are more complicated than they actually are and I think video games is one of those things where like oh my God there's like a million possibilities every second and who knows and it's like no there's like three or four things going on at any point in time and I'm willing to bet that like an AI could probably solve some of these games like pretty easily um especially if there are no constraints on how they can learn yeah can I talk to you about relationships yeah we already have so yeah I know but more generally speaking we we didn't get a chance to talk about the the red pill Community oh sh well first of all what is the red pill Community the manosphere in general I'd love to get both of your opinions on this sure I I know I know you're probably not as opinionated on that say do you think I am that like probably not as you like as much as you but I I do have opinions andu you do okay I usually don't like speak out too much on it because I feel like there's like a language barrier that's why I don't really do politics because this is my second language yeah that's right you have to know the a little bit like that you know how to use have to use derogatory terms every other sentence so they understand you right exactly I don't know anything about that you need like a good like you need to be able to like speak really well for people to take you seriously I think and like that's a thing like if I if I don't have like the words and I don't have the like I can't pronounce things correctly person searching for Words looks stupid essentially that's how people view it tell me about it I have a podcast that a bunch of people listen to and I mumble and they yeah wait is your what's your first language Russian oh okay but I speak both languages horribly I'm just not I'm not like there's definitely a big disconnect between my brain and in my mouth module like I'm not able to generate the thoughts efficiently like the things you're able to do like like speak like that I'm not M it's very very tough plus there's huge amount of anxiety and social interaction that I have which makes speaking even harder got yeah yeah yeah it's tough I understand it gotcha makes sense yeah the the gotcha is both uh a symbol of compassion and derision at once it's I'm just letting you know I understand what you say I'm just going to sit there and stare you no you can just say like yeah get it like yeah I get it gotta no it's so it's so short it's like say say say a longer sentence but that means the same thing I understand you yeah good that's good that's like not chills you know you get chills so you understand me yeah it feels good yeah I hear you I hear you and like if you just like hold the other person's hand that's even better you got to put in some emotion there okay show that you have some I understand what do what do you think about gotcha what do you think about red pill uh what what sorry what what is it first of all for people don't know yeah the red pill Community obviously it's the Matrix reference the red pill that you take is when you realize what dating standards and Norms really are in the world that men are providers and have to become some great thing to haunt and attract you know the women who are just kind of there floating around looking for people to give them the most resources and it's like coming to a realization of what the world of dating really is broken away from the Hollywood standard and the romantic stuff that they try to sell you in you know stores so there was kind of maybe you can kind of educate me on this but red pill used to be associated with just um maybe anti-establishment views I don't know uh maybe maybe Republican conservative view point yeah they use red pill a lot in like different communities like when you say the red pill Community yeah that's usually means dating the dating thing but a lot of people say oh Trump voters they're red pilled are you Red pilled on like politics whatever people say stuff like that yeah okay cool and then there's like the manosphere that's all the similar type of stuff and Andrew Tate is somebody that represents kind of the figurehead of the manosphere of like the red pill stuff yeah I would say so I'm pretty sure yeah okay all right cool so uh what are some ideas that they represent and what do you think about them I think they do a good job at speaking to disaffected young men who feel like the rest of the world has kind of left them behind or isn't willing to speak to them and they do Identify some true and real problems feels like on the left we have a really hard time doing like self-improvement or telling people how to better themselves we focus too much on like structural or systemic issues rather than what can an individual do to uplift or Empower themselves and it also feels like they do a good job at speaking to some of the positive aspects of masculinity that it's okay to be like strong and brave and a soldier and a warrior and provide for your family and blah blah blah um so I said like those are like positive messages like self-improvement and everything that come from the red pill Community what's the negative I think the analysis on how men and women interact is a way to transa all of like the Romanticism and love and chemistry is totally sucked out of it everything is very like sex based like how do you basically have sex with the most amount of women possible and that's going to make you happy um and then I think people's motivations sometimes are just spoken about in such a shallow derogatory way that I don't think is always reflective of reality like woman only wants you because you make six figures and you're tall and a guy only wants you because he wants to have sex with you and blah like it feels like there's a lot of that going on a lot yeah and that misses some fundamental aspect about relationships about meaningful relationships and so on MH I don't think I've never heard red pill people ever ever talk about like meaningful relationships it's always just how to get in one or how to have sex really Mel what bothers you about some of that philosophy I feel like the people that are like the red pill people I feel like their solution is something that doesn't actually work out um it like or it work out it works out for some people people that makes a lot of money is like really successful and that sort of way but it's not going to help most men out there so I feel like it's just like a pointless like speech to give to these like really lost guys and they really do believe that they can like they can become successful they can uh get money and like and when they get all these things they can get girls but most of them is not going to achieve that ever they get the money part or become successful just become a billionaire you know like and you will get all the girls and which is true but not everyone can do that so I feel like when these guys are speaking to these men and they're just like we just care about these men out there you know they need to hear this it doesn't really help a lot of them and it doesn't um Inspire them to develop compassion towards the opposite sex which is probably something required to have a meaningful relationship and also like they they seem to complain a lot about women um like only wanting men that have money and that's tall and that's muscular whatever you know all those things um and but they they complain about that but that's like also kind of what they're trying to make the men try to do for themselves so they kind of like fall into the same sort of behavior and it seems like they're kind of unaware of that as well um they're just playing a part of the game instead of trying to find a woman that doesn't look for those things and that are looking for not those things yeah I actually would love to have like straight up data on people in that world versus not in that world how often they get laid Yeah like literally so I think for sure people in that world have fewer meaningful long-term relationships that are fulfilling that actually helped them succeed in life that helped them be happy and content and all that kind of stuff but just even the straight up the the shallow goal of getting laid I wonder uhhuh because it's very possible that like just the the roughness with which they uh treat intellectually women that might lead to lower success not higher success it's very adversarial which I think is always disappointing anything that talks about men and women I think it's good to acknowledge differences but when it becomes like adversarial especially when you talk about sex sex is something that men are getting and it's something that women are giving and that type of like trade-off and the way they talk about it is like yeah it sets people against each other in a really toxic way I think mhm how do you talk to people from that world from the red pill world like would you would you ever talk to like somebody like Andrew Tate oh yeah if I had the chance to I've been on the um fresh and fit podcast a few times and then I've got a friend sneo who's like very red pill that stuff um if I'm trying to talk to them usually the um it's kind of like approaching a like a scared cat the first thing you have to do is like be very gentle and say like I understand your issues I understand your complaints I know that you're I'm scary because you think I'm going to say like toxic masculinity and feminism and all these scary words at you um so the first thing is always to recognize it like a lot of when they talk about there are like true aspects to what they're talking about that people on the left won't recognize so I think it's good to acknowledge those things that like men and women are kind of different we do look for different things in general when it comes to relationships it's okay to say that it's not there's nothing bad there and then it'll usually be like once I've got your trust and I'm in your bubble like let's talk about the things that you want and maybe like some of the strategies that you're employing aren't necessarily going to get you some of the things that you want so for instance if you're really worried about like shallow girls like ruining your life like Molina said um it's probably not best to build your entire worldview around trying to get shallow girls that are going to ruin your life like if your way of attracting a girl is to go to the gym get a whole bunch of money and try to like flaunt your wealth as much as possible you're going to be attracting the very same type of women that you're here like DEC crying on your stream yeah I think we talked about that on the podcast like you probably want to have a woman that's going to be there if you lose your job it's still there like that cares but the things that's not just your job yeah um it's more stable and also I don't help you become a great man or a great like grow like I feel like a great friendship and a partnership like it helps you make you a better person some of the most successful people I know I mean they have families and there's clearly a dynamic there that's like that makes them they wouldn't be that without they're not an island yeah yeah and the kids actually are big part of that too like for most people if you're like a good parent they make you step up somehow in life you have to take responsibility for getting your shit together and excelling in ways that uh I guess the philosophy of the red poool does not quite get to that's always an interesting I think I've asked that a couple times where it's like would you let your daughter date Andrew Tate and it's always funny to watch them kind of like squirm around those answers sometimes but see if they if they don't have a daughter like I you know I don't have a daughter I think your whole philosophy changes once you have a daughter sure you even at that like they can they know what they're answering they feel a little bit weird about it it's funny to watch them like they even they know it's like a fuck you know well they they might say like I I want my daughter to date like a high value male to the degree that he's a high value male yes but like I don't think you'll feel that way the definition of high value changes completely certainly the stereotypical measures of value contribute to the calculation but it's so much more than that I think uh the chemistry of the whole thing is is bigger uh you've also mentioned about body count you guys both have a high body count does body count matter or it depends like like you said it's low in some people's eyes it's high in other people's eyes does body count matter in relationships does the past matter well the past matters I don't think body count not to me I don't really care not just as it is no yeah I mean it could be the past does yeah well the past is who you are right like somebody tells me like they have a 200 body count and they're 16 something's probably going on there that's not good I was thinking about that too like cuz it could be like really young people that are having some sort of like mental going on or or somebody's like 45 and they've like never had sex before there's probably something going on right so they could be indicative but if somebody's like in their 20s and they've had sex with you know 100 people or 50 people whatever it's you know whatever there's more experience which can be good sure okay so that that just represents you're like sexually open and so it doesn't really necessarily mean any kind of not necessarily it could though the number alone doesn't mean anything mhm yeah okay well you could meet a guy that's like I just really really like want to fuck a lot of people because it makes me so cool like could you can be someone like that which is like so the body count doesn't matter but like where it comes from yeah like why why have you slept with the people that you slept with yes does it hurt like the Romantic aspect of the relationship knowing that there's a lot of people in the past I don't not for us no is a part of the relationship fundamentally romantic for us yeah yeah okay what you come off with such a cold person no I was just in my head thinking I wanted to just say gotcha right there oh it's so judgmental I think when when it comes to the sex thing there's always like the way that I explain it is and I understand like um I have to say this because I don't advocate for what I do for everybody or what she does for everybody because obviously there's a whole bunch of natural feelings of jealousy that pop up for a lot of people um but when people ask me you know it's always like oh like isn't this like horrible that you guys are doing this and you don't love each other um from my perspective I can have sex with like any person and it can be sex like that's not like a special thing between two people in my eyes it's like anybody can have sex but there are like certain activities and ways you can spend time with each other where you're like carving out these like precious little moments in time with a certain person that can do things that are special to that person and those are the kind of like events that I remember more than anything else so like the idea of like like oh wow I had sex with a person that was so special doesn't mean as much as like you know us traveling to like New Zealand or sharing some special moment doing like some really fun activity or event or whatever that's usually how I like at it yeah so a shared intimate moment yeah I kind of agree but I can definitely connect the romance with sex boring I'm curious she's a woman see that's where the red pills right exactly we also talked about misogyny which is you're clearly the embodiment of that what were you saying so there's some there's a connection between romance and yeah I think it is because I think sex could be a lot of things right it's it's some sort of bonding I'd say in some way they say that you really like BDSM you can of like you become submissive to someone or you take control over someone it's like a very bonding like intimate um moment I'd say and that's romantic the intimacy is romantic I I think it is if you can show yourself as really submissive or like weak or you have like absolutely no control over yourself and you let someone else do it or you are the one being that like you are the dominant for someone I think that's a really like intimate thing cuz you show like the weakest Part of Yourself kind of I just feel like I personally to me some component romantic but to me this is not judging to others to Me Maybe as call is brought up the romance increases if the number of intimate interactions are limited to one person like for me for some reason spreading it out decreases like um exponentially the the feeling of romance you feel but that I don't know what that could be just like sort of having grown up in the Soviet Union there's a kind of there's the fairy tale stories and you're kind of maybe living through them yeah I mean I think what you're saying is like really normal like most people probably feel that way yeah but but because you guys are able to successfully not do that I just want to question my own understanding of it you know like like why is that why is that why am I being very um jealous for no reason like maybe you can maximize the number of intimate experiences if you just open up and let go of jealousy essentially I think I feel like in Sweden like in Scandinavia we're extremely just sexually open like in general we we're not like super religious either we're very like relaxed we don't like we don't feel bad about our like it's just like a different sort of thing and I would say like it's we're more Progressive when it comes to feminism and stuff so it's more common that you will meet women with a higher body count than like when I meet like American Girls all of them have like vagous smell like super suppressed like sexually and they have like what what did you just use they have like issues to like they can't relax during sex it just hurts for them really nervous vaginis is that what it's called yeah um so like I meet so many girls that are having like a lot of issues with sex and they have like a very low body count because they just can't relax or they yeah and it's proba and usually they come from like a very religious background um so they have just been told like you cannot wear that you cannot be like that you can't like you know and like where I grw up it wasn't like that at all we just see it as more like a casual thing so then you can just maximize the awesomeness of the experience have exactly I think the important thing I think for everybody to realize is there's always pros and cons to everything like my lifestyle like obviously I get they have a lot of fun experiences that's like a huge Pro and that's super cool and if you're like a more monogamy brained person you're not going to get those experiences but if you're a monogamy brain person like when you're sharing that special moment in time with somebody else like that moment could be really really really special because now it's the thing that you're showing yourself and opening yourself up to another person and they're only trusting you to do that and that's like a really special thing that only the two of you are sharing with each other so I mean like there's always like pros and cons to everything like I think we both would say like like doing open relationship is probably not like we would not recommend it think we would no yeah I recently fasted for 3 days and then ate a chicken breast at the end of that and it was like the most delicious food I've ever eaten true so like there's some aspect of fasting and scarcity and so on that like and you have to figure out what for your own psyche what works the best it's good to be a little bored or like not do something or like work because you can just enjoy the time when you're doing something really fun is more fun otherwise you're just going to get numb in general with everything yeah yeah I personally just never get bored like I guess the boring thing is exciting to me the just like you're like me everything I like is boring I got to ask you we talked about misogyny in the in the he's trying to battle it out on the internet what's what's your what's your sense as a woman about the level of massaging and the internet and the streaming community and how to fight it for me cuz I get I I guess I get it every single day somehow like because I have an online like I have a chat that go that's live right and um but I have like mods moderating that all the time so I don't really need to see much of it I think it's just pretty annoying because you get to like see it all the time um does become like background noise yeah a little bit and it's like the same coms over and over again but it's usually for me I don't personally care that much I understand that other people do especially when it comes into like when there's like a lot of sexism and stuff and um when there's a lot of like men not taking women seriously like I I definitely get that and I used to get that even more like a few years ago uh with my accent and everything and like I used to be blonde as well like a few months ago so I feel like people wouldn't take me seriously because of that uh that's a bit annoying but I I feel like it's pretty easy to like see through when someone acts that way and for me personally I don't really care but um it's a bit annoying like being online and like getting stuff every single day uh I would say like the probably the worst thing is when you feel like you put in a lot of effort into some sort of work everyone is just going to say you just got that because you're a woman and you're attractive and that's that's probably like the worst thing is there a way to fight that you think yeah I don't think you can I think it just comes up all the time it's just like it is what it is I guess you just got to keep doing whatever you do and like not let it like emotionally control you somehow I think having more women in those spes is always good it's probably good yeah like a lot of the guys you can tell online they don't don't bring on the worst ones then she being see she just did it she did the massage anything by having some bad women on she's saying all women see well you you know it's true right see but I I disagree with you and I'm older than both of you and therefore wiser right so well combin we're older than you careful one matomy yeah we've got combined age or it could be it could be the same thing as like also the age thing and like the woman thing a lot of people think that I'm just copying every single thing that he says which I think is a bit annoying as well so I can never really like Han Sonic us her of that one yeah which is been Anno so much you know uh it was about the defunding police like my dad a c friendship camarad and love and respect which you uh both have had for a time and have lost it and I would like you to regain it that's try to increase not decrease the amount of love in the space what do you think about some of the harshness of this of his language which we talked about uh our word in the past when he used nword all of that kind of stuff when he what he used to do I mean no like what do you think about it like do you give them advice to not speak a certain way no like a little more civility I'm just trying to get a second opinion on this second opinion about Normy people not internet people are way more extreme than yeah she's way more extreme no that's not true okay so okay so here's the thing for me okay I was not online until 3 years ago at all like I would watch YouTube that's pretty much all I would do I wouldn't do anything else really I didn't grew up playing video games or anything so I'm like extremely new to everything um so when I came into this world and I started seeing clips from him in the past I don't think I really had much of an opinion because it just sounded like it was just a different like Words St using but it didn't mean anything that's what it feels it was just like if you're saying the r word it's because you're just want to call someone stupid but you want to like do it a little bit more like but it's not like it didn't feel like it was like a it's not like racism more like you know it's not agreement on this side here so like if he was saying the f word because it was just like a word to like insult someone and he wasn't like I don't think he was ever I don't think you were ever homophobic back in the day or anything like that but I think it was just like a way to express yourself maybe back then I don't know I didn't do it there's no videos of me or anything CU I wasn't even online back then but so my case was I I definitely don't think Stephen is homophobic or race or any of those obviously so there's a good heart there and a good mind I was just saying he just likes being mean I think well there is some you lose yourself and forget the bigger picture that he's pushing for more effective discourse on the internet he's like an inspiration to a lot of people especially now of like how you can use effective conversation to make for a better world to Der radicalize people and so on and then you lose some of that power by losing yourself in in like the language just more language of emotion versus effective communication but it's a gray area I would say like something that is probably recently done in that case because he been joking about women a lot like it's women's fault they're bad like it's just it's been like a lot of jokes when it comes to misogyny I guess in your community and I think it's actually turned people a little bit that way that's why we've done the recent M yes so that I guess that's actually true because I don't think it was pretty I don't think it was clear enough I don't think it actually was I think you did that mistake um but I think back then I was even saying like hey you should probably not like you Pro you probably should not do that CU it actually is pretty hard for me because whenever I come into His commuter like his chat people are just going to spam it's like a woman moment it's a woman moment whenever I say something and it's kind of like yeah it's getting pretty annoying as I said it's just annoying when you see it every single day mhm yeah there you go uh wisdom from somebody younger than you wow wisdom can come from all kind people yeah of course just sometimes very limited quantities depends on the age boy uh learn something from anybody what advice would you give to uh young people the both of you that you have both audiences where young people look up to you in general if you were to give advice to somebody in high school like how to create a life that can be proud of what would you say the most important thing that I I've learned is to view people as different and not better or worse and when you view people as different instead of better or worse you learn that there's almost something that you can learn from anybody uh like be open and empathetic towards other people's experiences nobody does anything by random Choice like there's always reasons why people act the way they do and as long as you're willing to kind of like be open and receptive to the lived experiences of other people you're going to be able to gather information and create like a more cohesive and better view of the world than any of your peers will do you have any kind of advice you can give to Young Folks people I feel like something that I see especially in America a lot is that um a lot of people kind of get told what to do early on like in high school they're supposed to become this thing uh like education wise like they're supposed to like become a doctor or this thing or whatever and then they kind of just like give up on things that they're actually passionate about so I think a lot of teenagers get really confused they get an education and then they get that job and they hate everything and they think that when they're when they're reaching the job when they're reaching like the journey they're going to get that's like where the happiness is going to be but then when they get to there they just hate everything and then they become really depressed and I've seen this so much like I see this all the time and it's it's pretty sad to me to see so many people that are just wasting time and then they just get really confused and I don't know it's the same thing with relationships too no one really knows what they want anymore I feel like everyone is just kind of doing whatever like Society is saying or the parents are saying or their friends are saying um and they they're never really doing anything that's super meaningful anymore and like they don't so what I would say is like try to find something that are that's that is important to you it could be anything really like some sort of passion maybe like your friends maybe like like what matters to you like figuring those things out I think is really important and that comes from being able to listen to like some inner voice so it's not come from elsewhere it's really hard because you're living the life and like there's things happening around you and people tell you what to do and what not to do and you know no one really has like their own opinions everyone is just kind of like listening to the the cooler thing or you know except he seems to stand on his own free yeah I'd say so and like like something I realized too like because we just went to twitchcon and we were talking to a lot of streamers was that uh it was interesting I I thought it was interesting because the the the few people that I feel like I that seem really cool and that I look up to like in the streaming world all of them wants to quit streaming all of them wants to do it no one wants like no one likes it and they're so successful like they are around successful people they they're working every single day they're working hard they're making so much money and everyone is just complaining and like they're complaining about um like not being able to see their uh partner or you know because they need to live somewhere else and I see these things and they seem extremely unhappy and but it's so hard for them to just like cut all this successful stuff off because that's like what you you know learn to do and that's like supposed to be like your happiness but it isn't everyone is really unhappy yeah there's something about maybe streaming is different but YouTube folks too I've interacted with a few and um even in podcasting space people become obsessed about the views and numbers and subscribers and stuff like that um so I turn I never talk about that I I don't pay attention to that uh I feel like that's a drug that destroys your mind your your mind is an artist ability to create truly unique things um also your mind in terms of the ex the ups and downs of the attention mechanism uh and then also being just if if something that you make is not popular but it meant a lot to you you will think of it less yes because it's not popular that's a really dangerous thing and because everyone around you is reinforcing like I'll get messages like wow this thing got this many views or something great job it's like no you don't get it like that's not that's not everyone is enforcing this like this language of views and likes and so on and it's it's correlated of course cuz truly impactful things will get a lot of attention often but it's not on the individual local scale like temporally is it's uh it can really fuck with your mind and I see that in the creators they become um addicts to the algorithm lost and chasing views like we know friends that we know cool people and then they start streaming and eventually they they're like chasing the dragon of like and they change like they yeah it's like completely and like this is something I've always said that like one of the biggest blessings and biggest curses of humanity is we are very good at acclimating like you can become paralyzed you can have all sorts of horrible things happen to you and you'll get used to it and you'll be okay you're going have like a good Baseline but it works the other way too and that you can get more and more and more and more and you acclimate to it almost immediately there's like this is a phenomenon that I bet it happens in the YouTube world but I know it happens in the streaming world where you're streaming 1,000 viewers every day huge event happens and you blow up and you got like 15,000 viewers for a day or two and then it starts to go down and down and down and down and down and then after all the drama start off you're at like 3,000 concurrent viewers now in the macro you went from 1,000 to 3,000 that feels awesome but you actually feel like shit the whole time because you're remembering when you had 10 or 15,000 and now Everything feels horrible and you'll see people climb over time like fuck like but whatever that one huge stream I had like I've never like been able to and it's like dude you're doing great what's yeah that happens a lot there's so many people that we know that we find super super cool they're passionate about things they have so much interest and then they just get like so addicted to these numbers and like all the everything is just ruin like all the cool things about them is ruined because they stop doing the things that they actually like to do something else that gives the more viewers and more money and it's it's really sad to see yeah that that temporary sacrifice that seems temporary is that it um it actually destroys you like for one time making a choice because I I come across those choices often like I could do this you can kind of know what's going to be popular and not and you have to ask yourself the question like is this going to sacrifice because if people are sacrificing like intimate relationships they're sacrificing time with their family they're sacri like sacrificing time with things that they feel good about and that they like and that's something I kind of realized last year cuz I was working so much and I was just grinding grinding grinding because because it was kind of new for me and then New Year came by and I was like wait what did I even do like the entire year like I traveled to a bunch of places but nothing actually really meant anything to me because I felt like I was just working the entire time I felt like I was just numb through the through the entire year and I was really scary um like I rented um like a super pretty house like for a week with my dad and my sister cuz I wanted to spend time with them but the entire time I was just streaming and I actually didn't ever like calm down and just like chill with them and I like that's like time I'll will never get back I don't I don't give a shit about the money that I made that week but I lost the time and like that is really important to me and yeah and a lot of people are doing that um and I feel like you as you said like you can definitely see that in like artists for sure I feel like if if you look at like artists like back in the 60s or 70s I feel like things were just so much better back then and it feels like they were actually making music that meant something to them they were actually making art and I feel like today everything is just kind of like whatever is cool whatever sells whatever you know sounds in a certain way everything is kind of the same thing and everything that is very artistic and very cool is is actually not that popular at all and uh that's kind of sad I think yeah of course there's now bigger mechanisms and platforms to spread stuff music so as long as you can be content with not being popular I think you can still create art yeah but not like when people get a little popular they get addicted to that so fast yeah it's weird yeah you have been somewhat good at least from my Outsider perspective because I think you I can at least imagine you making choices that could make you more popular and you don't seem to make those choices sabotage my career like playing Le but it's it is very intentional like you said like and I made that choice at every single stage of My Life One is because from the perspective of being a carpet cleaner my life is way better than that was or ever would have been so I'm already doing way better than I ever thought somebody like me ever could be um but then two I super love my job every time I wake up every time I fly to a place do a podcast every time I get to talk to really cool people like every single part of my job I super like if there's something I don't like I just cut it off because I don't care cuz I'm already making plenty of money doing what I do and why would I ever wake up and not like what I'm doing when I can like what I'm doing how do you guys find through that given that you love it and sometimes maybe lose yourself in the drug of it how do you find like work life balance together inside of relationship like time for each other I don't at all so I'm not a good person to ask what do you love more uh Mel or effect factor factor is a really good game that's like not a fair comparison okay you're talking about one of the best cleanest games games best support ever made cleanest code base like it's more factorial time for me starting to understand where the massaging comes from by the way is is the uh is Vector legit a really good game yeah of course yeah Co if you're like a do you enjoy programming of course that's all I do that's all that's okay to me programming is is a game in itself that I enjoy probably more than anything else but yeah it's very much a game like that like if you're into stuff like that like you can lose hundreds of hours like very quickly to like you have a problem and then you think of a solution and then you iterate on that over and over and over again in larger larger schemes sometimes you got to redesign stuff sometimes you like it's a very much like that kind of game it's you're essentially building a factory like what on a foreign planet or something like that basically it's like a bunch of you're trying to automate different problems so that you can build bigger things so you can automate bigger problems so you can build bigger things and automate bigger problems so it's more complicated than like a city building game like some City type of thing I wouldn't say it's more complicated it's more it's like factor is like a game of like logic like strictly like logic like almost like a building a circuit or something yes yeah there's like there's circuitry and you've got your ant orgs orates you like there's stuff like that it's very much like that like what are the enemies in the game like what um there are like bugs try to bite you and you can get guns and shoot and kill them but it's I saw there's like shooting going on yeah but that's like a m it's just like another problem to solve in the game basically yeah okay all right see see what we did there we just started talking about the game as we're trying oh my God that's like that's that's horrible anyway is there is that basically the struggle nonstop struggle how to get human like intimate human time I feel like it was like that a little bit more in the past I feel like it's been better lately but I think it's because um when we started dating I wasn't streaming and I kind of just like gave up like my trip in New Zealand I give up like like I left Sweden so I was just like in LA which I hate I hate La I don't like La at all uh it's hard to make friends that are like real that are into the same stuff as you it's it was just really hard for me to connect with anyone especially also like being a European and like being around Americans was very strange so the only thing I had when I came here was him and I um and I didn't expect sit because yeah because we had we had like two weeks of hanging out and like he would be on his computer sometimes and like do emails and stuff but I wasn't thinking that he would stream like 12 hours a day and it was pretty like it was pretty intense like in the beginning of it as well and I realized it was really hard to like get attention or get time because he his like love meter would be like full if I was just in the house and that's just kind of like the way he is and for me back then when I didn't have anything else to do um was kind of like a it was kind of crazy uh for me I feel like right now because I do work as well and I have things going from for me and I have other friends uh now that I made I feel like it's a lot easier cuz and and I can definitely like enjoy just like being in separate rooms and just like hear him in the background is really nice I can like I can sit and paint and like in my room and I will do that for hours while I'm just like hearing a scream in the background it's kind of like comforting that he's he's just there it feels nice I like it oh cuz to you that's the sound of Happiness Happ because I know he's right there yeah it's nice and they'll come in and check on me sometimes and it's it's kind of like it's actually very comforting it's very nice I like it mhm yeah I think that's kind of what a relationship is like you do fun things together and you share moments together but also just like having someone like around you is really really nice uh and I think that's probably maybe it's me growing up maybe that's what it is and like I start liking like the kind of I feel like we're like an old couple like we're like 80 and we're just like around we don't really have to talk much it's it's nice to just do that and that fills your love meter that um terminology love I need both I mean okay you you're making it sound like that I'm like craving like I Haven said I'm not saying anything I haven't said a single thing at all making face right I know exactly what you're thinking so much judging going on there's no judging at all um no but like we I think I think whenever we do plan something out like if we if we go on a trip like every other month or once a month uh I feel like usually like that's enough as long as he's not playing Victorio the entire time like if he if I feel like he's going on these trips with me and he's not like doing things for me or he's he's not interested in like spending time or like being present with me then I'll feel like I just feel like I'm just wasting time right now and then I get kind of disappointed but otherwise I I think this like this is fun I think this is like spending time together cuz we're like doing something together it's fun yeah my my love meter is your love meter is full it's my social life otherwise we like to we like to think about it that way that like I need like a little bit more of like this one thing like quality time and he needs like almost zero quality time but like let's say that I we took away like physical touch you would probably not be very happy mhm um so you need physical touch so it's not just Factoria huh no I'm a very cuddly person yeah like cuddly and then you're like I guess like acts of servives like if I do something for you you get really happy like hot chocolate yeah like if I give him hot chocolate in more he gets really happy so the actual it's not the hot chocolate it's the giving of the hot chocolate no it's just the hot chocolate but if she gives it to me I didn't have to get just physical touch you like that's really nice all right well if you have to choose between Factoria and the drama or political discourse which probably political discourse probably my calling but I am a good factorial player like what role exactly does factoral play in your streaming life oh well right now it's just usually there are like these games that I play in the background as I have conversations cuz it's hard for me to just sit on the computer and just talk and not like be playing a game at the same time so just something to keep me kind of like occupied you know some people buy like the little like widget things I guess yeah that's what yours yeah basically yeah it's like Minecraft or factoral for me all right well my love meter is full from this well thank you so much for joining us for me this is really fun um you guys are fascinating human beings um thank you for existing I'm glad to live in a world where you exist I can't wait to see what kind of beautiful uh thing you create next and the crazy kind of art that you create through the different people you interact with Destiny Stephen you're an amazing human thank you so much for talking to me it's an honor hope to talk with you again talking to Ben Shapiro you've given me a lot of inspiration it's an honor to talk to the Ben shipiro of the left yeah well thanks L for having me I appreciate it thank you guys fun thank you thanks for listening to this conversation with Destiny to support this podcast please check out our sponsors in the description and now let me leave you with some words from lisis Caroll it's no use going back to yesterday because I was a different person then thank you for listening and hope to see you next time