Volodymyr Zelenskyy: Ukraine, War, Peace, Putin, Trump, NATO, and Freedom | Lex Fridman Podcast #456
- I hope the Kyiv
airport will open soon. Then it will... it will
be easier to fly in. - Yes, I think that the war will end, and President Trump may be the
first leader to travel here by airplane. I think it would be, it would
be symbolic, by airplane. - Again, January 25th,
around that date, right? Flying in, meeting
the Air Force One. - Oh that would be cool. - There is a perception of corruption. People like Donald Trump and Elon Musk
really care, uh, about fighting corruption. What can you say to them to
gain their trust that the money is going towards this fight for
freedom, towards the war effort? - In most of cases, we did not receive
money, we received weapons. And where we saw risks that
something could be happening with weapons, we cracked down
hard on everyone. And believe me, this is
not only about Ukraine. Everywhere along the supply chain,
there are some or other people and companies who want to make money,
they try to make money on the war. We did not profit from the war. If we caught someone, believe me,
we cracked down hard on them. and... and we did that, and we
will continue to do so. Because to this day, when someone says that
Ukraine was selling weapons — and, by the way, Russia was
the one pushing this narrative — we always
responded: our soldiers would kill such people with
their own hands, without any trial. Do you honestly think anyone
could steal weapons by the truckload when we ourselves
don’t have enough on the front lines? And yet, we have to provide proof
to defend ourselves. Because when there’s an abundance of such
misinformation, distrust starts to grow. And you're right,
people listen to various media outlets, see this,
and lose faith in you. In the end, you lose trust,
and with it, you lose support. Therefore, believe me, we are fighting
more against disinformation than against particular cases, although I still emphasize once again,
at the everyday level such things are still important. We catch
these... these people, and we fight them. As if Putin wants to sit down and talk, but Ukraine does not.
This is not true. - I think that, yes, he is in fact
ready to talk. - Did you talk to him?
- On the phone or what? - How do you normally talk to him? - I don't know, normally by the sea,
the same as with you. He invites you to the sea with me,
just the three of us. - No, no, one of us may drown. - Who? Are you good at swimming? - Yes, I am a good swimmer. - You're a good swimmer. Well... If you think that the president of a country is completely crazy, it is really hard to come
to an agreement with him. You have to look at him as a serious person who loves his country. And loves the people in his country. And he conducts, yes,
destructive military actions. - Who are you talking
about now? Who loves his country? - Putin. Do you think he
doesn't love his country? - No. What is his country? He
happened to consider Ukraine his country. What is his country? - When do you think there will
be presidential elections in Ukraine? The following is a conversation with Volodymyr
Zelenskyy, the President of Ukraine. It was an intense, raw, and heartfelt
conversation, my goal for which was to understand and to do
all I can to push for peace. Please allow me to say a few words, first about
language, then about the President, and finally about history. Please skip ahead straight to our conversation
if you like. We spoke in a mix of
languages, continuously switching from Ukrainian
to Russian to English. So the interpreter was barely hanging on. It was indeed, in many ways, a wild ride of a
conversation. As the President said, the first of many. Language, like many other things in a time of war,
is a big deal. We had a choice, speak in Russian, Ukrainian, or
English. The President does speak some English, but he's
far from fluent in it. And I, sadly, don't speak Ukrainian.
Yet. So Russian is the only common language
we are both fluent in. In case you don't know, the Russian language is
one that the President speaks fluently and was his primary language for most of his life. It's the language I also speak fluently. To the degree I speak any language fluently.
As does a large fraction of the Ukrainian population. So the most dynamic and
powerful conversation between us would be in Russian,
without an interpreter. Who in this case, added about
two to three second delay. And frankly, translated partially and poorly. For me at least. Taking away my ability to feel the humor, the wit,
the brilliance, the pain, the anger, the humanity of
the person sitting before me. That I could clearly feel when he was speaking
fluently in the language I understand. Russian. But all that said, war changes everything. The Ukrainian language has become
a symbol of the Ukrainian people's fight for freedom
and independence. So we had a difficult choice of three languages. And faced with that choice, we said yes to all
three. To the consternation and dismay of the
translators. We make captions and voice over audio tracks
available in English, Ukrainian, and Russian. So you can listen either to a version that is all
one language. Or to the original mixed language version with
subtitles in your preferred language. The default is English overdub. On YouTube, you can switch between language
audio tracks by clicking the settings gear icon. Then clicking audio track. And then selecting the language you prefer. English, Ukrainian, Russian. To listen to the original mixed language version,
please select the English UK audio track. Big thank you to Eleven Labs for their help
with overdubbing using a mix of AI and humans. We will continue to explore how to break down the
barriers that language creates with AI and otherwise. This is a difficult but important endeavor. Language, after all, is much more than a cold
sequence of facts and logic statements. There are words, when spoken in the right
sequence and at the right time, that can shake the world. And turn the tides of history. That can start and end wars. Great leaders can find those words. And great translators can help these words
reverberate to the outskirts of a divided civilization. On another note, let me say that President
Zelenskyy is a truly remarkable person and a historic figure. I say this as somebody who deeply understands the
geopolitical complexity and history of the region. I am from this region. My parents were both born in Ukraine, Kyiv and
Kharkiv. Both my grandfathers, too. I was born in Tajikistan and lived for a time
there, then in Kyiv, then Moscow, then United States. And while I am now, for almost 30 years, and to the
day I die, I am a proud American. My family roots grow deep in the soil of nations
that comprised the Soviet Union, including Ukraine, Russia, Belarus, and
Tajikistan. I've gotten to know and have spoken for hours with
members of the President's team and people close to him. I spoke to hundreds of Ukrainians since 2022,
including soldiers, civilians, politicians, artists, religious leaders, journalists, economists, historians, and
technologists. I've listened to hundreds of hours of programs
that both support and criticize the President in Ukraine, in Russia, in the United
States. I've read countless books about this war and
the long arc of history that led up to it. If forced to recommend two, at this moment, I
would say the Russo-Ukrainian War by Serhii Plokhy and The Showman by Simon Schuster, which is a good
personal behind-the-scenes biography of the President focused on 2022. But there are many, many more. This is why I can comfortably say that he is a truly
singular and remarkable human being. It was an honor and pleasure to talk with him on and
off the mic. Now, it is true that I plan to travel to Moscow
and to speak with President Vladimir Putin. And I hope to be back in Kyiv as well. As President Zelenskyy said, this was our first of
many more meetings. In all these cases, I seek to do my small part in
pushing for peace. And in doing all this, I'm deeply grateful for
the trust people have given me on all sides. For the people attacking me, sometimes lying
about me. For the critics in the stands, chanting the
latest slogans of the mass hysteria machine like sheep in Animal Farm. I love you too. And I assure you that drawing lines between good
and evil on a world map is much easier than seeing that
line between good and evil in every
human being, including you and me. This is what I try to do. I'm simply a human being who seeks to find and
surface the humanity in others. And, as I've said, no amount of money,
fame, power, access can buy my opinion or my integrity. Now, finally, please allow me to briefly
overview some history to give background
for several topics that President Zelenskyy
references in this conversation. I recommend my
conversation with Serhii Plokhy and many others about
the history of the region. But here, let me start with 1991,
when Ukraine declared its independence and the Soviet Union collapsed. From this point on, Russia-Ukraine relations
were defined in large part by whether Ukraine aligned more with Russia or
with the West, meaning Europe, United States, NATO, and so on. In 2004, with the Orange Revolution, a
pro-Western candidate, Viktor Yushchenko, became president. In 2010, it went the other way. A pro-Russia candidate, Viktor Yanukovych,
became president. The internal tensions grew, and in 2013,
Euromaidan protests broke out over Yanukovych's decision to suspend talks with the European
Union in favor of closer ties with Russia. This set forward a chain of important events in
2014. On the politics front, Yanukovych was ousted and
fled to Russia, leading to the election of a pro-Western president. Also, in 2014, on the war front, Russia annexed
Crimea and war broke out in the Donbas region of eastern Ukraine, which eventually killed over 14,000 people and
continued all the way to 2022, when, on February 24, 2022, Russian forces
initiated a full-scale invasion of Ukraine. This is when the world started to really pay
attention. Now, some history of peace talks. Volodymyr Zelenskyy won the presidency in
2019, and he discusses, in this conversation, the ceasefire agreements he made with Vladimir
Putin in 2019, which was one of many attempts at peace, from the two Minsk agreements in 2014 and 15, to a series of ceasefire agreements in 2018, 19,
and 20, all of which failed, in part or in whole. All this shows just how difficult ceasefire and
peace negotiations are, but they are not impossible. It is always worth trying, over and over again, to
find the path to peace. I believe that Presidents Zelenskyy,
Putin, and Trump should meet soon after
January 20th this year, and give everything they got to negotiate a
ceasefire and security guarantees that pave the way for a long-lasting peace. We discussed several ideas for this in this
conversation. As I said, this was one of my main goals here, to
push for peace. This trip to Kyiv and this conversation was a
truly special moment for me in my life. It is one I will never forget. So to reflect, I say a few
more words and answer some questions at the very
end, if you'd like to listen. But here, let me say thank you to everyone
for your support over the years. It means the world. This is the Lex Fridman Podcast,
and now, dear friends, here's the President of Ukraine,
Volodymyr Zelenskyy. - If we can explain why the Ukrainian
language is very important, our conversation will be most effective
and impactful if we speak in Russian. - I speak Russian
perfectly, of course, and I understand everything
you are talking about. However, I can't
respond in Russian the entire interview. It's because... This
is how it is today. I am not making anything up, you can see it
all for yourself, you can feel and hear it. Today, there were 73
missile attacks against us, and people were killed. There
were over 100 drones today. And this is a daily occurrence. The people who attack us they speak Russian. They attack people who
were only recently told that this was actually in defense
of Russian speaking people. And this is why I respect
neither the leader or director of today's Russia,
nor the people. I just... That's it. - And I... I
don't think that you can just... can just pretend that nothing is
happening and give Putin a pass once again for saying that we are one people,
that we speak one language, etc. They speak the language
of weapons, that is a fact. And we are peaceful
people... peaceful people who... want to protect themselves. And defend
their freedom and their human choice. You know, at the
beginning of the war I addressed Russians in Russian. Zero effect. They're mute. They....they do not
listen, they did not listen. Some are afraid, some have other
issues, they have different reasons. It's like when a
person is drowning... drowning and people walk by
because they can't hear them. And someone walks on by
crying, afraid to save them. It doesn't change anything
for the one drowning. They need someone to help them. This is why I honestly despise
these people, as they are deaf. They…they began the
occupation in the supposed defense of the Russian
language. And that's why... With all due respect, I would like to give
an interview in Ukrainian. This is very... This is very important to me. If there are some points that you want me to explain in
Russian, I can certainly do that. I can certainly occasionally speak
Russian... But in general, in general no. I'm not sure that you'll understand me
completely, despite your Ukrainian roots. You are a citizen of
the United States, right? - Yes. - That's why I'm surprised
that you don't understand... Well, it was a long time ago. I
understand that it was a long time ago. Moreover, a lot has
changed, a lot has changed. - If I may, please allow
me to say this in Russian. Yes, many things have changed. But I have hope. I hope that
today many Russians will hear this, that Vladimir
Putin will hear this. That the American President Donald Trump
and the American people will hear this. That everyone will hear this. And yes,
Ukrainian language is important symbolically. But what is also important is
that we understand each other well. - For Donald Trump? Is it important for Donald...
- Yeah - Trump whether I speak Russian or not?
-  Yes, yes. Because, unfortunately, and it hurts to admit, but I
cannot speak or understand Ukrainian yet. So your... your wit,
dynamism, and your humanity will not come through
as well and as quickly. Remember, I need to wait for
two to three seconds to hear it. You have a great sense of humor, great
stories. With an interpreter translating, I simply won't see this, but
I understand that it's painful. Another reason is that I hoped
we could show...that even though it is sometimes said that
Russian is banned in Ukraine... - This is not true. I'm
speaking Russian now, right? We have people who speak Russian.
This is not true, really, it's not. It's really not true. We disrespect
Russian now because of Russians. That's all. When they were
saving Russian-speakers, they killed Russian-speakers,
many people who actually... Many of whom are in the east, right? In the East, they lived in
the East. They destroyed their houses,
destroyed their lives. It's not a rhetorical thing, it's
not all talk and "blah, blah, blah." I don't have time for "blah,
blah, blah." Yeah, so it's a very... a very, very important
and sensitive moment. The message is that we are not one
nation. We are not.. you know, the same country.
We're different countries. Yes, different countries. And I think what is most important
is what we're talking about. Not how we're speaking
about it. This is what I think. You're a smart guy, so you have a lot
of experience in dialogue of this kind. That's why I think you
will, you will understand me. Yeah I, anyway, I
think it is far better for Donald Trump to hear
my English, not my Russian. - Your English is much
better than my Ukrainian. You're getting better
and better every day. - That's true. I'm a very honest guy,
that's why I will be very honest with you. - Ok. - Your Ukrainian is not very good,
but we will, but we will work on it. - Yes. I have many flaws
and that's one of them. - Sometimes, I can speak
English. Sometimes, as I understand, we can
be very flexible. Right? - Very flexible.
Spanish, Swahili. - Yeah, you see? - Yeah. Javier Milei needs
to understand this, so... - By the way, Javier understood
me without any words. - The language of love, maybe. - Of respect 
- Respect - I respect him
- Yeah - I had a very good conversation with
him. Really brilliant. - May I sometimes speak
Russian and sometimes English? - Yeah, yes, you can use any language you like. And I think that's a very good rule
for this first meeting between us, as you said, maybe we will meet
in the future, for the second time. - Second, and
third, and fourth... - Yeah, this is... this is good. You
can ask questions in the language you'd like and I will answer
in the language I can. - Well, you said you wanted to
meet by the sea at some point. So, for our next meeting.
Let's meet by the sea. - With pleasure.
Next time, It would be much better to meet by our Ukrainian
Black or Azov Sea. - You know, I have
been to a lot of... I have traveled to many cities in
Ukraine, but I have never been to Odessa. And everyone tells me
that and I don't know why. - You have to. - Can you explain to me why
everyone loves Odessa so much? What's there? You know...
What's in Odessa? That's how they say it. What's there? In
Odessa, we've got it all! - Okay. - Odessa, I love Odessa because
of its particular temperament. People have their own...
their own accent and it's so... There are many nationalities,
you know, there are a lot of... lot of stories. Authentic
Odessa cuisine. By the way, you know, the
cuisine is very different from others... The dishes are not like any other,
dishes and everything is very tasty. Also, there are
beautiful people. And today, you know... you understand people very well, especially
after... after the attacks on Odessa. You understand what the people are like,
just how Odessites are very Ukrainian. And that's... that's very cool. I love Odessa. I go
there several times a year. I go there several times
a year now because... well, now because of strengthening of
air defense systems, because of this grain corridor, etc.
I go there more often. They have the sun there. They have the sea. It's Ukraine and it's very cool there. - Well, when you come and visit me
in Texas as a guest for the third time... - With pleasure.
- Let's do this. How about
you, my friend Joe Rogan, and I will go get some
Texas barbecue together. - Who will pay? - That's a good question.
- Putin, Putin... for everything, he has to pay. - Well, well, yes, we'll invite him too. - No, no, no.
- Okay. - Without him.
- Okay, I get it. Understood. - But, if the Rome Statute will be accepted
by your government before this moment... - By the way, I don't
know if you know this, but Joe has a great
comedy club in Austin. - Joe Rogan?
- Joe Rogan, yes. And I think that as a person who
respects comedy and stand-up comedy, it would be interesting
for you to have a look at it. - No, no, he is... I know
him and I saw a lot of different videos. He's a... He's a very talented
person, so it would be a pleasure. If you invite
me and I'm able to do it. I'm... I'm a little bit busy. - Yeah.
- But... if I'll be... if I'll be
in the United States, I hope that I will have a conversation
and a meeting with President Trump. And of course, during
my visit if I'll have the time, it would be a
pleasure, if you'll invite me. With pleasure. - You know what? I will pay. - Good. - Yeah. You know, I had to think
about it, but you are the president. - Yes, with you, with pleasure. - When the war
is over, please come. - Thanks so much.
- And when you're less busy. - Thanks so much. - If we can go back many
years, to the World War two. Tell me the story of your grandfather
who fought in the second World War. - My grandfather, he... he
graduated from the military... military academy and from the very
beginning of the war he went to fight. He was in the infantry, and he fought
through the entire war. He had many wounds. As they used to say back
then, "His chest is covered in medals." And it’s true
- he had more than 30. Yes more than 30. He
was the kind of man... He was such... He was such a serious man. I loved him very
much. And we had a very close relationship. He didn't like to tell details about
the war. He never... he never boasted. Although I asked him as a boy
would, "How many fascists did you kill?" He never talked about it. He believed that
the war was a great... a great tragedy. A
tragedy for everyone. And... Ukraine was occupied, and
it was a tragedy for Ukraine, a tragedy for Europe, and a
tragedy for the Jewish people. His own brothers, his
entire family, were executed. They were tortured by fascists, who had occupied Ukraine and their village.
His father was the head of the village. And he was killed - they
were shot. It was a mass... A mass grave, right? Yes,
it was a communal burial. Some of them were killed outright and
others were... They were buried alive. His four brothers, they all went to war. As
soon as the war began, they were all there. He was the only one,
who had a military education. And they
all... died in the war. He was the only one who came
back. He had nobody, he came back and he found... found my
grandmother, his future wife. And she was, she managed...
What was it called then? I don't know, they don't
have them anymore. It was a childcare facility, an
orphanage, so to speak. A place, where orphans lived. Children who... who don't
have... parents, children of war. And she managed this childcare facility. With "difficult" children,
as they used to call them, "difficult" children, who
went through the war. Who saw their parents
killed. And this is how they met, because these "difficult"
children, they, well, sometimes behaved differently, they could
steal something, do something bad. There were many, many
children in the orphanage. Yes. That's how she met my
grandfather. And I loved him very much. And I think that my grandfather, frankly, would never
have believed that this war is possible. He would never have believed it. Because he worked in the police
after the war, he was a colonel, he worked in a criminal
investigation all his life. So, he fought with
bandits all his life. After the Second World
War. But also, I believe, he fought for justice all his life.
And we all lived in one apartment, and even after his death I lived with both of my
grandmothers and my parents. Two grandmothers, who both lost
their husbands. Both of them died. Well, it was an ordinary family. An ordinary family that lived
like everyone lived back then, in the Soviet union and even
after the Soviets, in the nineties. We lived in one
apartment, all together. What else is there to say? But I think the most important
thing was values, respect. They gave me an education—my
parents gave me an education. No one left me
money or apartments. So, I didn’t inherit
anything material. But I believe that our
real inheritance is here in our minds and in our
hearts. I believe that. - It's a one second delay.
- Yeah, yeah, yeah... - So, if I... I'm sorry, if you...
- It's fine... - ...tell a joke, I will laugh
about 1, 2 or 3 seconds later. There's a delay.
So... An ordinary family, but not
an ordinary time, World War two. World War two. Speaking of mass
graves, I was at Babyn Yar yesterday. A large part of my
family died there. In moments like this, such a
place serves as a stark reminder of the profound historical
gravity of the second World War. I remember... I remember this song from
my youth: "On June 22nd, at 4 o'clock, Kyiv was
bombed and the war began." I always wondered how
it would feel to live in a moment when... when everything changed.
The path of humanity completely shifts—in a
single moment, just like that. What do you think... what do you
think about that moment in 1941? Now, after the 2022 invasion, how do you perceive the Second World
War after you have witnessed all of it? - Well... Well, firstly, the war
actually started earlier. It started here, in Ukraine. Kyiv
was bombed, as you quoted. But the war had already
begun before that. And I think I perceived it as a start
of the full-scale invasion. Well... I think it's hard... it's hard to understand
why nobody wants to listen, look at and analyze history. War, the rise of fascism and
Nazism, the emergence of Hitler, Goebbels, and their
entire team—at the time, this wasn’t just about one party or even
one country. It was, essentially, a wave. A wave of hatred, a wave of "one race above the rest." They were, in fact, constructing
and ultimately implemented a theory around this
idea, later seizing Europe. They created a theory of one
nation, one race, one world. Their world. Of course, this idea is
absolutely senseless, but it has become radicalized over
the years and even gained support. A vision of "one world." And, in
principle, the so-called Russian World, the ideology Putin promotes and
imposes—it wasn’t originally like that. He was a different person
back then, or maybe he was always like this, but
his rhetoric was different. At the beginning, remember, he talked about
the EU, and even about Russia’s future being tied to NATO—there were even
talks of joining the European Union, NATO. He spoke about shared values with the
West. That’s how it all sounded back then. And we must also look at
Hitler, who was seriously... Before the radical idea of taking over
the whole world, he actually made... certain steps, and everyone
believed he was helping the economy. And, to be fair, he did take
some steps in that direction. But he was a terrifying person. None of those actions justify
him, nor do they excuse his actions. And that’s why we cannot look at the
second World War as if it started in 1939. It didn’t begin in 1941 either. We need
to draw conclusions. When did it start? With the weaknesses of the world. The division of European states.
The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. All of this happened
before 1941. People who were more informed,
those who dug deeper—whether they were politicians or not, whether they
were from different walks of life, including business, which was different
back then—were speaking about all of this. Hitler won't stop.
There'll be a world war. Hitler will destroy
nations. Nations. And that's what happened.
Someone looked the other way. What I told you about. Europe was
sinking then. I gave you an example of it. But the whole world
looked the other way. And didn't pay attention. And said,
"No, we can negotiate with him." "I'm telling you he is ok.
We can negotiate with him. He's just more
right-leaning." Or, it does not matter what they said.
"He's just He's just pro, very pro nationalist." This is all nonsense, and
this is not the first time. And Hitler isn't the first
such case in history. We're dealing with a
person who is allowed to stick to this desire to destroy. He was consumed
by it and enjoying it. And what happened to
Hitler? Now, what about Putin? This invasion was also at four in the
morning... around four in the morning. There were missile strikes
on Ukraine. This is the same. I believe that intentions
are also the same, but more on that later.
By the way, you tell me If this is too long,
you can stop me. - Never long
enough. It's beautiful. - Okay, so... It happened
here around four in the morning. I... Before this, I must
honestly say... Everyone said something,
predicted something, etc., but I asked only for one thing, primarily
from the United States: if you are sure, if you have the
evidence, if you talk to him, and he tells you that there'll be an
invasion, if all this scares you. I only asked for two things -
send us weapons, or better yet, strengthen us with preventive
measures so there would be no war. It wasn't the weapons that I was
asking for, I asked for sanctions. Intimidate him, please don't say
that if he comes, if he crosses borders, if he kills, we're
imposing sanctions. Well, this is complete
bullshit. Sorry, but really. - Oh, I understand this!
- Oh, wonderful! Yes. - I understood one word.
- Yeah... - So they did not help... - I believe that no, and this is
a fact. We didn't receive help. If we assume that words
are help, well, then yes we received a lot of it, because
there were plenty of words. Even more than plenty. Yes? At four in the morning there were strikes. Morally, is it possible
to prepare for war? No. It doesn't happen like
you read in books, see in movies, and so on.
What happens to you... I was just looking at
my wife and children. My children were asleep,
but my wife was awake. There were strikes. Missile strikes, we heard them. To you, as a living person... how can this be? You
just can't fully believe this. You just don't understand,
why now, given everything that happen in World War
2... when... when millions of people died. None of it mattered.
Still, at four... at four in the morning. Around
four, 3:40, 3:45, remember? Around this time, yes,
there were missile strikes. And later, by the way, a few days after, after the
first days of the war, I spoke with
Lukashenko on the phone. And he apologized. And he said that it was not
me; missiles were launched from my territory, and Putin
was the one launching them. These are his words.
I have witnesses. "And I apologize," he
said. "But believe me," that's what he told me,
"Volodya, this is not me." “I am not in charge,” he told me, “I
am not in charge, these are just missiles, this is Putin." I told him, "Don't do
that." "This was done without me." "That's it, he just..." On
the phone, I remember this conversation. I
told him that I believed... I told him, "You are a
murderer too, I'm just saying." And he told me, "You must
understand, you can't fight the Russians." I told him that we
never fought them. I said, "It's war, the
missiles came from your land, from Belarus,
how did you allow this?" Then he replied, "All
right, retaliate then." I still remember him
telling me, "Hit the refinery, you know how
much I care about it." Mozyr Oil Refinery is that it?
Can't recall. Mozyr Oil Refinery. I told him, "What are you
on about, what retaliation?" - "Forgive me, Volodya." - Yes, yes.
- Yes. This... this was at
5 in the morning? - No, no, no. This was during
the first or maybe the second day. Second or third
day of the war, yes. - Oh, I see - Well, after that I went back home. I
was home with my children, with my wife. I just went to my wife very
quickly that night, at four o'clock, yes, and just told her:
"Get the children, get ready. You'll probably need to go to my
office very soon", and I left. That's it. At this moment, you're no longer a father.
What happened to me, unfortunately, because
I believe that this is... and not only do I believe,
I understand, especially now, that all of this is
the most important thing. Because your
country is your family. The strength is in your family,
and this is the most important thing. And I'm the president, and therefore I had
to stop being a father in my own family. And my wife had to do
everything, she had to do everything regarding
children, regarding safety. And... and I had to deal
with the state because I'm the president. And this is my
duty. And I, by the way, am... am taking this very seriously. I went
to the office and here we are now. You're very welcome. - Well, at that moment
on February 24th, 2022, everything changed
again, just like in June 1941. Everything changed.
History took a turn. The history of humanity
took a turn. And for you, too. You were the president. You were... you were talking about fighting
corruption, about the country's freedom, about interesting and
innovative reforms. But that morning, of February
22nd, everything changed. Could you tell me about that
morning, the details of your actions, when you had to quickly
make difficult decisions? What was the process for you, how did you
make these decisions? Did you discuss them with people you trust to understand
how to respond to this invasion in every technical,
political and military aspect. What was the process for you,
how did you make the decision? - According to our legislation, in
principle, I'm the Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, so
I had to give corresponding orders. Yes, I have a military office,
and then later there was a military headquarters
where all key people gathered. This is not only about the military,
it's about energy, etc., all key things. But at that moment I
made the decisions. Quickly and without a doubt. And I cannot
say that I am just that kind of person. I'm just a living person who believed
that if help is needed right now, to help evacuate people, help with
children... Several cities were blocked. I was only thinking about how
to deliver food there within a day. We did a lot of things,
although we understood that that they, in fact, occupied
a part of our state. that they, in fact, occupied
a part of our state. And... We distributed
weapons to people. That's how it was. Trucks came and simply
distributed weapons to people so that they
could defend the capital. To ordinary people. Just on
the street, to ordinary people who... who understood that if the Russians enter
the city, then we would have the same thing that's happening in other
cities, per the information we received. Thanks to digitalization,
by the way. We had a very good digitalization before
this. And we preserved a lot. And even when they were surrounding certain
cities, a lot of things still worked. The banking system,
the Internet, we had television. And thanks
to this, I made several decisions to ensure that people are
united and have all the information. Russia is very good, at spreading large-scale
disinformation. Fortunately, I have two decades of experience managing
a production studio, TV channels, and
large media resources. I understood that we needed to build
an information network very quickly. Thanks to this, I began to
address the people constantly. This happened several
times, three to five times a day. In fact, I became that information source for people who were in cities that
were cut off from other information. And it was very important
for me to keep all things digital - to keep the
Internet, to stay in touch with everyone, with all the people.
Initially, that's the contact we had. And then we also built a
media platform, so... where we had all the news
agencies, agencies of Ukraine. And this network
was called "Marathon". And it was also very
important for the people to trust us. And people had
to receive information. Why? There were waves. There were waves of Russian on
the first day, who said, "He ran away." I had to go out into the street. I
left the office and went outside. I had to do this, because I was
showing that this was no green screen. You know, to show
that it was the street, not some digital... some
digital manipualtion. I mean, I did these
things. Then I touched various objects. Now
people might think that these are small things,
but I was actually showing that I was in a real place.
All of this had an impact. I was absolutely
sure of my actions. And these contacts,
several contacts. And then I spoke to the Russians,
I addressed Russians. I really did, and then
only after that I gathered... It was the first day when I invited
all of the journalists here, wasn't it? That was on the first
day, I think. Well, not here here, to the press
center in this building. I talked to journalists, I asked them not
to leave, because we needed weapons. At that moment, they were handing out
rifles to people. And for me journalists and media platforms
were essential voices. There were … There were various journalists
from different countries here... And....they were
essentially stuck. And I asked them for contacts,
those who had access to... to Russians, Belorussians,
Kazakhs who understood everything. The same information.
And I....I spoke to them.. And I spoke to them and
spoke in Russian. I told them, "You must stop
Putin." This is terrible. This is horror. This is
war. You must stop him. And if you stand up now, if you speak
out and if you go out into the streets... This was very important.
I spoke to them in Russian, to show them
that there was no problem. And that all of these
pretexts were, were made up. This is why it's so painful to talk about
the Russian language too because, look, if a person does not
want to listen, they will not listen no matter what language we speak. - I disagree with
you here. I think and hope that many people in
Russia will hear us today. - They
blocked YouTube recently. Are you aware of
this? In their country. -  I know. And I
simply guarantee that this conversation will travel
fast on the internet. Everyone will hear
you. They will hear you, including the President
of Russia will hear you. This is why I have hope. - He is actually deaf, even if he speaks
to you, he is deaf by his very nature. Do you understand the difference? You
know, for instance when you talk to Musk you're talking to an innovator, a
scientist, about rockets, you talk about how to save
on costs, and how they land... And on the other
hand, Putin doesn't launch rockets to save
money, but to kill people. Do you think you can talk
to Putin about technology? Your guys were interviewing
him and he told them about... about tribal history.
Do you understand? Imagine a Russian man in
his country listening to him... You know what Musk is about? Technology, Mars,
artificial intelligence. And this guy, Putin, is standing there
bare-assed, pontificating about tribes. You've got to understand, you think that
when you do interviews, like Mr. Tucker, who did an interview
there, that... that you're about to "make them
friends." How could you... What does this have to do
with friends? He's different. He is... he is simply different. - But it's still necessary.
- A mammoth stands before you. - By the way, I must say that when you
said "bare-assed", it was not translated. Could the interpreter
please translate? - This is so that you can understand.
- Thank you. Now he explained everything to me,
I understand. - Yeah? That's great.
- Now I fully understand. - That's great.
- Anyway, but we still need to talk. - One should always speak
with someone who listens. And you must speak
when you know that this will benefit you, bring peace
and calm to the world. not the other way around. I love President Trump's
message, when he speaks. I, I think that we share
a position on peace through strength.
That is very important. It means that if you are strong, you can speak. And
we need to be strong. And Ukraine has to be
strong. Strong enough. Otherwise, what for? So, He... You..you know who, like.. like Voldemort,
who must... who must not be named. Yes he's, he's
like Voldemort, he thrives, subsists and
lives on being subjectivized. Instead of isolation, he is
offered to step out into the light. He's darkness personified,
and you offer him, as it were, to be subjectivized. Why?
There's only one reason Fear. And you say, we need to
talk. Listen, we need to be in a strong position and
not talk, but end the war. Yes, it is possible through
dialogue. We're not opposed to it. You just need to be in a strong
position to make the other person want it. Do you think he
wants to end the war? That's what you suggested.
I think this is naive. I'm sorry. With all due respect, it's naive
to think he wants to finish the war. - Tell you what... - ...the circumstances.
Sorry for interrupting. There's something we need. I think
that President Trump not only has will. He has all these possibilities
and it's not just talk. I really count on him
and I think that our people really count on him. So.
He has enough power to pressure him,
to pressure Putin... not into wanting to stop
it. No, he will not want to. To pressure him to
actually stop it. That is the difference. Don't rely on
his will, Putin's will to stop. You won't see it. That's what I think. Sorry. - No, sorry, I
interrupted you first. But what I would want... I do have what some, what some
might call a naive dream of you sitting down with Putin and Trump
and negotiating a deal about... a ceasefire. And together
finding a path to long-term peace. And I think this requires
strength, requires negotiations. There are a lot of carrots and sticks
here that can be used to make a real deal. And Trump is very keen on
making a deal and ready to negotiate. - Can I ask you a
question? Yeah? I just really want you and
I to be on the same page. It's very important to be in the same
information space. Extremely important. Let's talk a bit
about the ceasefire. Let me describe
the situation to you. In December 2019, in
Normandy, in Paris, at the Elysee Palace, Macron,
Merkel, Putin and I agreed on the ceasefire. The
US wasn't there, and this, by the way, was a weak
point of the meeting. If you'd like, we can later discuss
why they weren't there, it's a security guarantee thing in
general, it's Germany's position, etc. We agreed on an exchange of
hostages, an all-for-all exchange. We made a deal to exchange everyone
for everyone. I think you know that. And there was also a
meeting that lasted many hours. A meeting where we made...
we made a deal with him. Everyone was tired, it was
just the two of us in the end. and I proposed a ceasefire. By the way, no one in
Ukraine believed, few believed in the ceasefire, and he
wanted troop withdrawal. I calculated that if
there were a withdrawal of troops from
the line of contact the way Russians proposed,
it would take 20 years. I proved it to him.
Just in terms of time. Square kilometers, namely the length of
the line of contact or delimitation line. And we agreed on what I told
him, that... it will not work out. But, but I, I had many
points because I was deeply involved in the issue. I
was involved very deeply. It's my thing in general. If I start
doing something, I can't stand there like that guy I spoke about,
with my ass out, you know? I must be dressed,
I must be prepared. I must be prepared
better, better than anyone in front of me. You
do sports, right? - Mhm. - I practiced for many years.
And we know what fights are like, what boxing
is, what Thai boxing is. This is what I did, and
I loved it very much. When you step into the ring, you
understand everything, pretty much. - Mhm. - And so I stepped into it, and I
was... I was definitely well prepared. But he wasn't. No. He was not deeply involved
in the process. What border? Where is it? How long
will it take to disengage troops? And why wasn't he
involved? You want to know? Because he wasn't going to do
any of this. This is what confused me. If you are not deeply involved
in the issue, well, then you... It's... It's as if you don't really need
the result. That's what I think. So what happened? We
agreed that there will be gas continuation... gas transit. In 2019
we agreed with him. This was a security for
Europe. Merkel asked me for it. And this was extremely important
for Germany.. We agreed with him. Secondly, we agreed that...
For him, it was just money. So secondly, we
agreed on an exchange. For me, this was the most important thing.
For them, gas was, for me, was the people. And this is a fact
because I wanted to have a humanitarian
advantage, so that there would be further meetings
that would lead to sustained peace. And third. Ceasefire. Ceasefire you spoke about. What happened? The gas contract was
signed because he needed it. And, by the way, he
knew everything about it. As for exchange,
we took the first step and exchanged the people. Regarding the ceasefire. Well... They started killing us in about a month. So... I called him. And I told him, "We agreed
on a ceasefire, didn’t we? Well, it wasn't a piece
of toilet paper, was it? This is serious business, or so
it seemed. It really was serious. Merkel, Macron, you and I,
we all agreed on this together. A ceasefire is
important, isn't it? Not for New Year’s, cause
everyone was celebrating New Year’s. And now, they’re offering us a
Christmas ceasefire. It’s all the same. A ceasefire for 2-3 days,
just to get some praise. But this isn’t a performance,
this isn’t some kind of theater, no. This, this
is about people’s lives. And that’s what happened. After that, I called
him a few more times. I think I only had 2-3
calls with him in total. I asked him for a
ceasefire. He told me, "It couldn't be. We will...we
will figure it out now." People from...people
from the occupied territory, Russians and separatists,
they were all there together. They continued to shoot and kill our
people. Yes, the front lines were quiet. But they killed people. They were killing people,
and I kept calling him. I called again and again,
but there was nothing. Until after a few months, the
Russians stopped answering the phone. We did not have
any contact since. I wanted another meeting,
like we had in the Normandy. I wanted the next meeting
I wanted to find a solution. But the Russians refused. We tried to make it happen
through various European countries, and not only European,
but the Russians refused. They passed along some kind of
bullshit, made excuses—they didn’t want it. Meanwhile, they were
sending their snipers. We had evidence — living
proof, even video evidence — because some of them
were captured back then. Those were the snipers in
training. They were training them. They were training them. And later, those snipers
operated in Syria and Africa. These snipers were training
in our country, in the east. Ukrainians were living targets. They were shooting
from the other side, killing people, women, people,
children. They were shooting. It was a hunt. By the way, it was
in the Russian-speaking region. In the east, where according to
him everyone is speaking Russian. That's where they were shooting. Where the situation
currently is the most tense. They killed people. We
sent this information, sent pictures, we sent them to
the UN, sent them everywhere. We worked very hard,
very persistently. I met with everyone, but who thought
of Ukraine back then? They didn't notice it
much. They didn't pay much attention to Crimea being
illegally occupied either. And, to be honest, the
United States of America too. Everyone was somewhat
silent about this issue. That's how it was. It was...it was like that
before a full-scale war. I want to ask you a
question about the ceasefire. For example, in Mariupol,
in Mariupol today. There are American
and Ukrainian journalists. And everyone will tell you who had
contact, who has contact now with Mariupol. Who fled from there in the last
minutes just before the occupation, or who was able to leave to
escape after the occupation. Chernov who won an Oscar
was among them. And the journalists that left
Mariupol, they are here. By the way, we
had a conversation. They will tell you that
20 thousand, 30 thousand civilians were tortured
and buried there. We do not know the
number of victims. People who didn't want to work with
them, who refused to cooperate with them. People who went
on strikes to protest. People who did not want to work with
the Russians who occupied Mariupol. and this is one example… just with
this city. And I have a question for you. What about the millions
of children? And I will ask you in Russian so that
you hear this without delay. What about the millions
of children over there? What if we just
arranged a ceasefire, without understanding
what would happen next. Without understanding what will
happen to Ukraine's security guarantees. What about the
millions of children in the occupied territories?
What should I tell them? What am I to tell them?
What is it I should tell them? What? Whatever? Hey, all of you
over there... See ya. And those tens of thousands of
people buried there, they were... Is that what we want? Are we ready to
forgive them for this? We must at least
take the first step. If this is a ceasefire, we
must know that there is a security guarantee for the part
of Ukraine under our control. We need it so that
he will not come back. This is very important.
And what do we say to the people who
live in those territories? These are millions of people. Did you know,
that since 2014, in Donetsk, in the Crimea, This is happening in Melitopol
as well as in Berdyansk now, they are making all
these kids of drafting age go and fight. And if they don't
go, they will be killed. This is... do you understand
what's happening? That is why a ceasefire... Everything I said. What... I wish for... and I believe in President
Trump's power to use all of this information to come up with
a way to make Ukraine strong. And be strong. Why am I saying that? I will give you an example. President Trump will be in the same
situation as I was in 2019. Precisely the same situation. I want to end the war, we
want a lasting peace for Ukraine, we must do this: the
ceasefire, exchange people, and then diplomatically
return all territories, and we will do this
through diplomacy. What will happen next
with President Trump? If the ceasefire happens
without security guarantees, at least for the territory we
control, what does he get? If he manages to
make a ceasefire deal and three months later... Putin launches a new wave of
attacks. What will Trump look like? What will Ukraine look like?
What will everyone look like? Putin will just do it. And why would Putin
do it? Because today he is afraid of Trump. But once Trump manages for example... to do a ceasefire deal
without serious security guarantees for Ukraine,
he will give a pass to Putin. Not that he wants to. No, he does
not want that. I believe in what he says. But he will give
Putin an opportunity because in Putin's head, he
wants me to fight with Trump. Putin's plan is to end the
occupation of our territory. This is in his sick head. And... I am
absolutely sure of this. That is why I told you, don't wait for Putin to
want to stop the war. Pressure him so that he
is forced to stop the war. That's important. - It's important to say that what you
said about the children is a tragedy. War is hell. But let me say again, we
must find a path to peace. - There is one. - What is it? - There is one. Before ceasefire, strong
Ukraine. Strong Ukraine's position? Yes. we can
speak about it with Trump. For me, we can... we can
speak about security guarantees. But a quick step, a
quick step, is NATO, a partial membership
NATO... Yes, I understand. I understand, I understand Trump's
feelings about NATO. I heard him. He's thinking through
all of it, of course. But anyway, yes, NATO is a strong security
guarantee for all the people, for us. Part of the security guarantees. The second part is the arms aid
package, which we will not use. If... a ceasefire works, nobody will use
the weapons. For what? But it has to stay. But with all due respect
to the United States and to the administration,
not like before. I, I don't want the same
situation like we had with Biden. I ask for sanctions now, please. And weapons, now.
And then we will see. If they start it again, of
course, we'll be happy if you'll give us more and you will stand
with us shoulder to shoulder. Of course, that is right. But... But
it's different when you have weapons. Putin wouldn't have been
able to occupy so much territory. It was very difficult
for us to push him out. But we didn't have
weapons before. And that is the same situation; it
can be the same situation. I'm just sharing this with you. Like I said at the very
beginning, I want to be very honest with you
and with your audience. Yes, it's true. If we do not have security
guarantees, Putin will come again. - To make it clear, let's describe the
idea that you are speaking about... I would like to offer
you other ideas too, but right now, your
idea is that NATO accepts Ukraine minus the
five regions of Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaporizhia, Kherson and Crimea. - Just so you understand
the situation, the invitation to NATO is legislatively
issued to Ukraine. So to us, all those
territories are still Ukraine. But NATO so far, can only act in
the part that is under Ukrainian control. This can be negotiated, I am sure
about that. Yes, this would not be a great success for us,
but if we see a diplomatic way to end the war,
this is one of the ways. So it's... sorry, that is a start. Secondly, weapons.
Arms aid package. I am not ready to discuss this
publicly right now. It's all written down. And President Trump might have seen it or
not. But we've got no secrets from him. Yes. So, but mostly it depends on
the willingness of the United States. Because some of it
will come from the EU, some from the United
States, of course together. So not just from the
United States. No, no, no. We need unity with this package.
So, the package, and sanctions. Yes, sanctions. But I think it's in the interest
of all the smart people to not have Russian energy
on the market in general. So he, he has to
stop it. That's all. It's fine. American oil, American
gas is okay. Why not? And it's cheaper. So it will be cheaper for the whole world.
The money will go to the United States. And I think he will be happy. And the
president and your people will be happy. But it's your decision, I'm just
sharing. Yes, And cheap oil. So, Putin won't have so much money
for... for the war. And that, that's it. - But this is difficult
because it's a lot. You're saying to continue the sanctions
on Russia, to accept Ukraine into NATO. I need to ask you some
difficult questions about this. - Yes, go on. - I trust and respect your words today. Many
people respect and love you in America. Trump respects you. - Loves me? - Oh, come on now.
Remember, last time you corrected me when I said
that you love Javier Milei. You said, "No, no, no." "I respect
him." So let's not talk about love today. But could we talk seriously about... about
guaranteeing Russia's security? - Okay, can I
interview you a little? Question is: what land
is the war happening on? And where did it start? On our soil, on our territory,
international law was violated, the sovereignty of our
country was violated, civilians were killed, tens
of thousands of our people were taken hostage. And everyone will tell you this
happened. This is what happened. When I speak with the
Global South, which is trying to balance the two sides because
of the history, because of their roots, and because of their
shared economic interests with Russia in the past, and now,
of course, when you talk to them, they are speaking
a little bit like you. I mean, they're balancing
a little bit, you know. Yeah, a little bit in-between.
But we will work on it. - Yeah. - It's...it's our first meeting. During the
second one, you will be more on our side. - Yeah.
- But it's just...just...just... - You're very convincing.
- We will see. - Very charismatic. - Yeah, thank you. But when I speak with
them, when I speak, it's very important. Even with their balancing
attitude towards the war. They all recognize that this is a war. This is not just internal
conflict. This is a full-scale war that began... that Putin began. And all of them, all of them, if you
talk to them, they say... "Mmhh..." But then they all recognize
that... that it's his own big mistake. Putin's mistake.
And that he's not right. That's why I said, "No, no, he's not
right." And you have to begin from this. If you begin at the
middle between Ukraine and Russia, of course
we can speak like this. You are in the middle
and say, okay, what's going on? There is a
fight. Where is the fight? It's not the fight like...like
in Europe when Napoleon is fighting against somebody
in the middle of Europe. No, this is not in the middle
of somewhere of the planet. Not the planet. It's
concretely on our land. So one country with one army, one person came
to another. That's it. It's very clear. - Again, I would like us
to find a path to peace. So, let us nevertheless
try to start in the middle. What other ideas do you think might...
You are a very intelligent person. And... - Your Russian isn't
that good either! And I told you... - Yes
- ...that this is only our first meeting. - My English is not
very good either. - Your English is very good. - Thank you. To be honest, I'm
terrible at speaking in every language. Well, there... there
are other ideas. For instance, sorry to say
this, it sounds crazy, but - Please
- What if both Ukraine and Russia
are accepted into NATO? - Putin himself spoke
about Russia, maybe about NATO. What you just
said is very correct. What are the
guarantees for Russia? It's not like I'm even interested
what happens to them. To be honest, I don't care what will happen
to them in the future after the war ends. But, these are our borders, and
we must understand what is going on there. Well, the
NATO guarantees for Ukraine. Actually, this is also a security
guarantee for the Russians. Frankly, I talked about
this many times before. Sorry, I'm speaking
figuratively, but as an example, if you were a father
who lost his children... A grown man, A grown man, a man, an adult. And the war has ended. And he never got,
never got justice. For real. For example, somebody
decides to freeze support. "We won't give you
anything, you can't fight, you can't continue." So
we stop when we stop. Without any
guarantees, without any support, without
financing, without... Okay. And nobody is
held accountable... But the man lost his children.
He... He will not get anything. None of the killers
will be in prison. All the sanctions will be
removed. And he lost his children. And we have thousands of such people. Why do you think they
will not go to Russia? Will find a way and
will not kill the Russian soldiers there or somebody
there? Why wouldn't they. It's human nature. It's not about us.
It's everyone. Read American writers. Always after any war. if there is no justice for people there must be punishment
for the crime.It is only justice. How come my child was taken away? The war took him. This is very scary. And even... Whether it was my son who
was fulfilling his constitutional duty or simply a missile that struck a civilian child. If there is no justice and
the killers are not punished, why wouldn't these people
come back with hate? They will definitely come back.
So when we talk about NATO, NATO is not only stopping Russia. Do not forget, NATO is stopping us too. Because there will not
be justice for everyone. We know that NATO does not have
the right to solve certain issues with war. NATO is a security alliance, it
is protection, not brainwashing. What Putin claims, that
this is offensive, is not true. NATO is a defensive alliance, a security
alliance, and it is security for Russia. - But, unfortunately, there
are many options for peace that don't involve NATO
inviting Ukraine as a member. Can you imagine security
guarantees without NATO membership? For example, if America simply leaves NATO. I believe there is a high likelihood that Donald
Trump would do such a thing. - I think
it's very bad for NATO. That's the end. That is... That's the death of NATO. It is a pity because I think that
it's a very good alliance. Maybe not everything is good there from the bureaucracy or money etc. But totally, countries who are in NATO,
they... They don't
fight. There is no
war on the land of any of these NATO countries. I think that is the answer. It works or not. It works politically or
militarily. I don't know. But it works. So without Trump without the United States of America
there will not be NATO. That is the first. So... And you say, can we imagine that, that what? - That there could be
security guarantee without... - No, we don't need guarantees without the United States. That's it. Because the United States is a
very strong, powerful country. The United States puts the point. Of course, Putin said that
it's just the Soviet Union, where, by the way, Ukraine was the second strong republic militarily. Yes, by the way,
but he of course always forgets about it. But during the World War Two without help of the United States, support of your troops, support of your industry,industrially,
militarily, without your money, without your people, Hitler could, could win. So the United States helped
a lot, of course, Europe, USSR, and of course, everybody fought, everybody did a lot, but without the United
States, it couldn't be such, I don't use the word "success", because I think that there is no war which
ends successfully, because this is a war, seven-figure losses, heavy losses in World War II, millions of people,
and that's why without the United States security
guarantees are not possible.I mean, these security guarantees, which can prevent
Russian aggression. Of course, we have security guarantees,
bilaterally with some countries: financing, support of our internal
military and defending and humanitarian issues and
de-mining, which is very important, and helping our children in the school networks, by the
way, this is a very sensitive point. How many, how many bomb shelters? How many bomb shelters we built with the partners for the children? And it's a pity that they
are underground, but... Can you imagine their eyes when they came after COVID, you understand what does it mean COVID, but they had COVID and the war and together they didn't see
each other for so many years. And when they saw each other, even underground, they
were very happy and smiling. So,
we have such security guarantees. But it's not
enough to prevent, Yes, preventive measures also work. To prevent the aggression of Putin.
To stop. -  Your English is better than my
Russian. This is so... this is wonderful. - I'm not sure.
- I'm just giving you a compliment. - Thank you! No, no, thank you. - You're supposed to do
that kind of thing to a president. - Thank you so much.
- Okay. Once again. - Come on!
- Without NATO guarantees. I have a dream that, let's say, on January 25 or sometime
at the end of January this year, you will sit down with Donald Trump, with Vladimir Putin and together negotiate a ceasefire with strict
security guarantees. And an agreement will be signed. What will this look like without NATO? - I will make it clear. And so, first of all, I think, January 25 or some other day, well, you just call it January 25, and I don't mind, it's my birthday. And
we sit down, first of all with Trump. We agree with him on how we can stop the war, stop Putin. It is important for us to sit down
with him. Secondly, it is very important for us that
Europe, which is very important for us because we are part of Europe. And not only
geographically, geopolitically, but also in the European
Union — where we will be. For us, it is very important that Europe
also has a voice. It's the second thing.
It won't be long because Europe will be looking
at us and will be looking at Trump. And, by the way,
I now see that when I talk about something
with Donald Trump, whether we meet in-person
or we just have a call, all the European leaders
always ask how was it. This, shows the influence of
Donald Trump, and this has never happened before with an American president, I tell you from my experience. This also gives you confidence,
you know, that he can stop this war. That is why,
we and Trump come first, and Europe will support Ukraine's position because they
understand that Ukraine has every right
to have its voice heard in this, because we are at war. Trump and I will come to an agreement, and then, if... And I am sure that he can offer strong security guarantees together with Europe. And then
we can talk to the Russians. That's right. Not just
three of us sitting down at once. And you still talk to me like that, do you know how? As if
Putin wants to sit down and talk, but Ukraine does not.
This is not true. - I think that, yes, he is in fact
ready to talk. - Did you talk to him?
- On the phone or what? - How do you normally talk to him? - I don't know, normally by the sea,
the same as with you. He invites you to the sea with me, just the three of us. - No, no, one of us may drown. - Who? Are you good at swimming?
- Yes, I am a good swimmer. - You're a good swimmer? Well... - And I would like to add that if you have any contact with them, I just want to hear what happens then. - I have never talked to Vladimir Putin. But I have a feeling
that he is ready because Donald Trump is ready. I hope you're ready. And this is not just a
feeling, but a dream. I have a dream here that the three of you will
get together in a room. And make peace. And I want to understand
what it looks like, what security guarantees look like that would satisfy Ukraine,
that would satisfy Russia. - Ukraine needs
security guarantees, first and foremost. We are in danger. That is why they are called so. This
is no joke to me. Let's take a few steps back. Interesting. Why are security guarantees, a strong position of Ukraine, strong
weapons, and so on so important? I will give you
a little history lesson. Although I think you have prepared yourself
and know everything perfectly. Well, you can correct me on that. Yes. Ukraine had
security guarantees, the Budapest Memorandum.
Nuclear weapons are the security guarantees
that Ukraine had. Ukraine had nuclear weapons. I do not want to
characterize it as good or bad. Today, the fact that we do
not have them is bad. Why? Because this is war. Today we are at war because you unleashed... we... because... you have unleashed the
hands of a nuclear power. A nuclear power is fighting against us, against Ukraine, and doing what it wants. By the way, even you are now talking about
ceasefire. Just a ceasefire. Maybe give flowers
flowers to Putin, maybe to say
"thank you so much for these years. That was a great part of my life." No, we are not just
ready for this. Why? The Budapest Memorandum,
nuclear weapons. This is what we had. Ukraine used them for protection.This
does not mean that someone attacked us, that doesn't
mean that we would have used it, we had that opportunity. These were our security guarantees. Why am I talking about this in detail?
Because if you take the Budapest Memorandum, by the way, I discussed this with
President Trump. We have not finished this conversation yet, we will continue it. Regarding the Budapest
Memorandum.The Budapest Memorandum included
security guarantees for Ukraine. at first three...three. The most important security
guarantors for Ukraine. Three strategic friends and partners of Ukraine. This was in agreement. United States of America, Russia,
Britain. France and China joined.
There were 5 states that... These are
not even security guarantees. We now understand that this
is not a guarantee of security. Because, on the one hand,
these are security guarantees, but there was an English word,
as far as I understand, "assurance". It is translated as
"assurance", assurance right? And in Russian it will be...
And ... What? Assurance. That is, give up nuclear weapons
because you were under pressure of the US
and Russia for
Ukraine to give them up. These two powers were exerting pressure. These two states negotiated to ensure that Ukraine does not have nuclear weapons. Ukraine agreed. These...these are the largest states. This is the nuclear five that does not, not even
provide security guarantees. Now we just need to find these people, and we just need to put
in jail all of those who, frankly, invented all this. So, confidence so confidence...Assurance, Assurance, that Ukraine will be territorially integral with its sovereignty. It was
a piece of paper. If you are curious, by the way,
that after occupying part of our Donbas and Crimea, Ukraine
sent diplomats three times, I don't think I remember,
three times within a few years. We sent letters to all security guarantors, to all members of the Budapest Memorandum. What did they send? That what was written
on the piece of paper. Consultations. Ukraine holds consultations if
its territorial integrity is violated. And everyone should be in consultation. Everyone must come. Everyone must meet urgently. USA, Britain, Russia. France, China. Did anyone come,
you ask? No. Did anyone reply to these letters, official letters, they are
all recorded by diplomats. Did anyone conduct consultations?
No. And why not? They didn't give a fuck. This is understandable in Russian, right? That as Russia didn't give a damn,
neither did all the other security guarantors
of the Budapest Memorandum. None of them gave a damn about
this country, these people, these security guarantees, etc. We take a break. This will be a Budapest memorandum. The last time with me, imagine
how many years, it was with me, in February
2022. In February 2022.
he war began. A full-scale war. Letters for consultations
have been sent. No one answers. Next. We are taking a break from
the Budapest Memorandum. The question is simple about Budapest.
Can we trust this? No. Whichever country out of these
five sat at the negotiating table, just a,
a piece of paper... Believe me, we will
save you No.
Another. This is a train, this is a train with waste paper, with security guarantees, which
Ukraine has been riding for many years. The second car on this train is the Minsk agreements. The Normandy format
and the Minsk agreements, where it was written, where the signatories were. The United States of
America was no longer there. I understand that Obama
was here at the time. And as far as I know, I think
they were simply not interested in what happened to Ukraine and where it was in
general, where it was located. Well, somewhere there. Part of something. People, well, people and let it be.
Let it be with these people. The United States
simply did not participate in the Minsk agreements. There are no claims to the US
because they were not guarantors. Where is the claim? A step back. 2008. Bucharest. Everyone has already learned from the Budapest Memorandum. Bucharest. 2008. Bucharest. Mr. Bush, President of the United States, Republican, says that Ukraine should be in NATO. This is the voice of Republicans. Check it out. Ukraine should be in NATO. Everybody is looking at the US. Always. All in favor. Who is against? Merkel. So she opposes. And she forced everyone not to give Ukraine an invitation to join NATO
because that would be a step. Seriously. Republicans were in favor. The US was in favor. Because Republicans and Bush were not afraid of anyone. They were not afraid of
anyone. And they knew that Ukraine rightly
wanted to join NATO. She chooses so. And what is the question? Well, people made their choice. Well? And the Russians will not look that way. That was not the case then. Why? Because the Russians were different. Next Minsk... We didn't succeed. After the Minsk agreements, as I told you, hundreds of meetings were held. I have had hundreds of meetings since 2019. We could not think about a ceasefire. A ceasefire is our offer. This is not somebody's suggestion. This is mine, I would like. I wanted to. In Ukraine, society was divided. Not everyone wanted to. Half did not want to. Half were against. Half were in favour. Some of them shouted: "Do not believe it." Some of them shouted: "Believe it." I am the president of Ukraine. I was given a mandate of
trust by 70% of the population to take appropriate steps. And I made them. This is not a joke, We'll
just sit the three of us. I am simply telling you what is. This is how can I tell you, these meetings must be serious and prepared. And prepared with those who want peace. Ukraine wants peace, US wants peace. We have to sit down with Trump, and that is.100%, first and foremost number one. Moreover, he told me on the phone that... he is waiting for us to meet and there will be an official visit, and my visit would be the first or one of the first to him. And for him, this topic is very important. I know that he has his own matters, American issues, I understand. I heard his election program, but regarding international affairs, I think our issue is one of the most pressing issues for President Trump. Therefore, I believe very
much, I trust his words. And I hope we will meet again. We need to prepare, we have many plans to build on, and they exist, and they are supported by many countries, but we need his vision. He needs to look at all these details, but his vision, please. Because he can stop Putin, because
Putin is afraid of him. That's a fact. But Trump is a president of a democratic
country, and he does not come for life, he is not Putin, he will not come
for 25 years, he will come for his term. Please tell me, well, for example, he came for 4 years, and for the 5th year Putin came with a war. Will it make Trump feel
better that there was no war during his time and that
Ukraine was destroyed after him? Why destroyed? Putin is whoever, a killer,
whoever, but not a fool. He... will be prepared. He knows all mistakes.
He understands how we defeated his army after the invasion began. He realized that this was
not a Soviet war and that this would not happen
with us. He will prepare. He will let everything into
arms production. He will have lots of weapons and there
will be a very large army. And you think that after such
humiliation, four years without a war, he did not finish us, he will return
and fight only against Ukraine? He will destroy everything around. And if you say there is a risk
that Trump, President Trump, will withdraw from
NATO, for example, this is a decision
of the United States, I am simply saying that if it
does, Putin will destroy Europe. Calculate the size
of army in Europe. It's just that I say it for a
reason. Do the calculation. Why did Hitler conquer
all of Europe then? Almost. Just count, remember
his armies of millions. Calculate what Europe has. What are the
largest armies? We have the largest army. The Ukrainian army
is the largest in Europe. The second place after us
is four times smaller than us. - France? - Yes, 200 thousand. I think the French
have about 200 thousand. We have 980. - So this powerful coalition
of European nations. - That will not be enough. - Yes, it's not going to be enough, but
you're a smart man with a lot of ideas. Partnerships with Global
South, India, Middle East, Saudi Arabia, ekonomicheskie
partnerships, political partnerships. It all protects you. - First of
all, look at one example. North Korea. Just look at this example. 12 thousand. Has arrived. Today 3,800 killed or wounded. They can bring more 30–40 thousand, or maybe 500. They can bring many people. Why? Because
they have order, autocracy and everything. Can Europe bring
people together? No. Will Europe be able to build
an army consisting of 2-3 million people? No. Europe
will not want to do this. And for what? We
definitely don't want a world war with you.
There is no such purpose. There is no such purpose
as gathering everyone. We do not want any war.
We want to stop the Russians. And they invite... North
Korean soldiers. Invited. Their faces are burned. They themselves burn their faces.
Those who cannot escape, injured or killed. There is a video. Everything I am
telling you, there is evidence of this. So that they are... not recognizable, right? It means, what does it mean? It's out of values which
share Europe. Europe counts. It means that those
guys they don't count. "Rahuyut." It's "count" yes? They don't count the number of people. That
is the answer. Can they move more? Yes. Can they move dozens of thousands?
Yes, because we see what they have. Last year, for example, Europe
gave us one million artillery rounds. We produced a lot ourselves, but
they gave us initiative, it was initiative. One million artillery
rounds, and... And of 155 and etc. We produced more. But North Korea gave
Putin 3.7. Just gave him. So he also has a deficit for
today. It means he needs what? He needs time. - But the number of soldiers...
- Yes. - And the number of artillery
rounds is not everything. As you said, let's say Trump
guarantees security for 4 years. You can form partnerships with
India, with Saudi Arabia that enforce punishment, the stick, on oil prices, for
example, if any aggressive action is taken. You can actually even
build, I've met a lot of incredible Ukrainian
tech people, IT people. You can build great companies
that form partnerships with the United States, that
form partnerships with China. And that is a big leverage
against the aggression of however many
million artillery rounds. And that, a sheet of paper, you don't
need a sheet of paper for protection. - Ah, that's, you, you... Well, when you speak. - In English.
- In English, yeah. You don't even need answers
because when you now were talking, you already
answered on all the questions. The first one is that during this time,
you need just cooperation, a lot of money for
this military industry. In Ukraine or in Europe,
with India, Saudi Arabia, Saudi, and the United States,
you need a lot of money. So the question is where you will
get it. So my answer was to Trump. I said, this is one of the security
guarantees. Take 300 billions of frozen Russian
assets. We will take it. Take money, what we need
for our interior production. And we will buy all the weapons from
the United States. We don't need gifts from the United States.
It will be very good for your industry.
For the United States. We will put money there.
Russian money. Not Ukrainian. Not European. Russian
money. Russian assets. They have to pay for this. We will put it and we will make it. This is
one of security guarantees? Yes, of course. Because this is a military guarantee. Yes. But...Then the second you
said that energy price and a lot of sanctions on products and the
Russian shadow fleet and etc. That is the second answer we spoke about
before. Yes, put more sanctions on them. More sanctions. It's okay.
Not, but not to take off sanctions.
- [Lex] It's okay, - It's okay with you, but it's not going
to be okay with the president of Russia. - Yes, but I'm not thinking how it will
be very good for him. He's still a killer. - I understand, but
unfortunately, the reality is that a compromise is needed in
order to reach an agreement. - So, in your
understanding the fact that he is no in-jailed after
all the murders... He is not in-jailed
assuming all the murders... And no one in the world is able to
put him in his place, send him to prison. Do you think this is a small compromise? - This is not a
small compromise. And to forgive him will not
be a small compromise. - To forgive — no one will forgive. This
is absolutely impossible to forgive him. We cannot get into the head and
soul of a person who lost their family. Nobody, never will
accept this, absolutely impossible. I don't know,
do you have children? - No, not yet,
- Okay. - But I would like to. 
- Yes. God bless. And
this is the most important thing in life. And they simply took
away the most precious thing from you. Will you ask who ruined your life before
going to rip their head off? I'm just curious. They
took your child away. Are you going to ask, who did this? And
they will answer, that that dude did this. You will say, "Oh, well, then
there are no questions." No. No, no you will go, fucking hell, and
bite their head off! And it will be fair. Can murderers be
forgiven? That's why... you make security guarantees, what I told you, for those
who are here, and what we control, and what will not
happen, and that those who lost, we will... we will
never forget. And a matter of time. But when you gave us NATO, I
just said, this means that after a while, everything I said about NATO, after a
while Ukraine will not go against Russia. And Russia will not go against
Ukraine because you are in NATO. I am just saying,
is not that a compromise? So NATO is a compromise. This
is not just a security guarantee. In my opinion. Look, when rockets
were attacking Israel. And Israel is not in NATO. NATO countries
aircrafts were deployed. Air Defense The air defense worked. Operated by different
Middle Eastern countries. These are also
security guarantees. And, by the way, Israel
has nuclear weapons. So why do they need NATO when in
fact they have more than NATO has? The American, British and
French aviation stepped in - There was ADA, I don't
remember, from... from Jordan... Listen, thousands of missiles were
shot down that way. This is...this is... what is this?
So, it's a guarantee of safety. It's just that it's not called NATO. Is some Uncle Vova irritated
by the word NATO? There's a problem with the word? And I think he is simply irritated by
people… who… who are alive and living here. - If you believe this, it will be very difficult to negotiate. If
you think that the president of a country is completely crazy, it is really hard to come
to an agreement with him. You have to look at him as a serious person who loves his country. And loves the people in his country. And he conducts, yes,
destructive military actions. - Who are you talking
about now? Who loves his country? - Putin. Do you think he
doesn't love his country? - No. What is his country? He
happened to consider Ukraine his country. What is his country?
Explain it. Tomorrow he will say that it's America. No pity for the Chechens? Do they look like Russians? do they speak Russian? Of, of course… Of course they learn in schools,
like anywhere there's been Russification. Who are the Chechens? A different people. Another faith.
Other people. Another language.
A million. Eliminated. And eliminated how?
How did he kill them? With love? I know, fuck, by hugging. In Ukrainian, as we… as we say:
Strangling by hugging. I love you so so much. I love you so much that I want to kill you. That's his love. And that's not love. You're mistaken. He does not love his people. He loves his inner circle. It's only a small part of the people. He doesn't love them. Why? I'll explain. You cannot send your people to another land. To die. Knowing that they will die. Children. My, my daughter,
my daughter, she is she is 20 years old. For me, this is a child. She is already an adult, of course, but she is…she is a child.
The boys… The boys he sends, are 18 years old. 18 years old. They are children. He sends them. It's not that fascists came to his land
and he needs to defend it. He, he came to ours and he sent them. Chechnya... he sent them. Syria... he sent them. Africa... he sent them. Georgia... he sent them. Moldova, Transnistria,
that was before him. Fine, we can leave that aside;
he has enough sins of his own. And, and then there's Ukraine,
the largest part. 780 thousand. 788,000 killed or, or wounded. Russians. He calls them all Russians, even those who don't know, who don't know how to speak
Russian on his territory of Russia... Everything they've enslaved. Yes. Proud Varangians. So I wonder, is that love?
What love is this, and... ...for what? Does he love his people? No. Does he love his land?
His country is bigger than America. How much land do you need? America is huge. America is simply an outstanding
country. Outstanding country. Russia is bigger. Well, just bigger. So... so ask yourself, does he love them? What is he doing? And what does he love? Do you think he's been everywhere? In his Russia? It's impossible to get around it. He hasn't been everywhere. He just hasn't. - Well, I believe that
Donald Trump loves America, And I don't think he has been... - I'm sure.
- ...to every single American city. - No, no, no... I saw his rallies. - So many rallies... 
- Yes, yes...
- No, no let's... let's be honest. Let's be honest. He had it, and I saw it, and it's very difficult. He's not, I mean, he's not 18, yes, but he's strong, and this is his will. Everywhere where the war is. I'm sure... I pray to God it never
will be on your land, yes, and I'm sure that it will not be, but I'm sure that...
If you have in some region the problems… how to say, earthquake, hurricane, you have it all... Well, I'm sure that President Trump would be there after one day, two or three days. I don't know the security
of all these things, but he will be. Otherwise, how will people look at him? Yes, of course, he will.
Of course. The same about me. I'm not comparing myself with him.
I'm just… ...where it is difficult for people,
I have to come. The question… The next question is very simple. Region. Kursk region The operation there. Did Putin… ...was Putin in... in Kursk during… during four months? No. - Listen, I have...
tremendous respect for you, admiration for many reasons, one of which is you stayed in Kyiv. And another one is
that you visit the front, and you talk to the soldiers
on the front, and you talk to people
all across Ukraine. Absolutely tremendous respect for that,
so... - Thank you so much.
- And not enough people say... that, you know... I had a conversation with Tucker Carlson,
for example, and... ...you know, I said that you're a hero
for staying in Kyiv. And he said: well, he just did the thing
that every leader should do. But I think not enough leaders do the thing
that every leader should do. So... tremendous respect. - Thank you so much.
- And I agree with you totally. Yes, a leader should
go to the front of a war. You know... that said, America has waged
wars all across the world. That has... the war in
...in... ...in Afghanistan and Iraq cost... nine trillion dollars
and killed over a million people. War is hell. And... just because war is waged
in... ...in terrible ways that it is, it does not mean the leader
does not love their country. But I take your point. I once again have a dream... that... Even if there's hate, that you sit down
with Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin
and you find a way to peace. Let me ask you a question. What do you think? Will there ever be a day when the Ukrainian people forgive
the Russian people, and both peoples will travel
back and forth again? And marry each other. Rekindle and form friendships. Will there be such a time in the future? - I think history has long answered
this question. I don't know how it will be for us, it will be in the future. Without a doubt, history
has shown this time and again... after every devastating war. One generation, one country recognizes that it is... was an aggressor, and it comes to realize this is impossible to forgive. This is precisely the kind of education they've had in Germany
for many years, even though these children
had nothing to do with it. It was their
grandfathers who... who participated,
and not all of them were participants of Nazi Germany's war against,
essentially against the world. Yes. And against life.
And therefore, they're still apologizing. Apologizing is not easy.
They know that they were the aggressors, they were guilty. They do not look for compromise
in history. Compromise, in itself,
buys time. And they understand this. There are convicted murderers, condemned both historically
and by their own people. Reparations have been paid, And security guarantees
have been established. By the way... and all this is done. And when all this is done
and recognized, in any case people develop relations with each other. That's clear,
but it can only happen the way it always has...
always has in history. Russia will have to apologize. It will. This will happen
because they are guilty. They are guilty.
And as I told you, the guilty are different. Both those who participated and... and those who
remained silent. Because...
silence is also about participating. In my opinion. - Can I ask about
Donald Trump? We've already mentioned him a lot, but let's focus there. What do you admire,
what do you respect about Donald Trump? And also maybe
why do you think he won overwhelmingly the election in 2024,
that American people chose him? - He was stronger. He was much more stronger
than Kamala Harris. Biden first and then Kamala Harris.
Yes? He showed that he can... he can intellectually and physically… It was an important point to show
that if you want to have a strong country, you have to be strong.
And he was strong. And this number of... rallies, what I said, is not a simple
thing. He showed that he can. He is strong. So he... he doesn't have any questions with his,
I mean, this age and etc. Nothing. He is young. He is young here, and his brains work.
So I think, I think it's important, very important. And, of course, a lot of
interior questions. I understand the
the prices and etc. Economic questions
and the questions of… you have the questions with...
With other things. - Immigration, yeah. - A lot of things. I understand.
So maybe he answered, answered on those,
on those questions which people had. - One of the questions...
- That he will finish the war. - That he will finish the war.
- Yeah, for me, this is the main question.
But I said that for him, he's the President
of the United States. For him, his priority
is his questions in the United States
and I understand and I respect it. But the second he was speaking about the world,
yes, he said that he will finish the war. And I hope very much. Because... I think that that our people
really support his idea. And that's why I said, it is for me,
it's very, very important to have enough people around him who will
have connections with him, with the right things.
For me, the truth is very right things. What's going on really on the battlefield? What's going on really with Putin and Russia? What he really wants? And that is just to have it. You know? Before any decision,
you have to be at the same level of information. And we need, really,
we need him to know everything from us. From you. From, from people in Ukraine. From people around
who are really afraid, afraid that Putin doesn't want to
stop the war, afraid that he will come back
with his aggression. - So first of all,
I should mention that our conversation today will be translated
and dubbed into Ukrainian, English, Russian, other languages. Spanish. So you're in your voice.
So, there are great guys originally from Poland. It's a company called Eleven Labs.
They use, they've trained an AI. Artificial intelligence sounds
truly remarkable in your voice. You have the freedom to speak
in any language you choose, but no matter what,
you will always find yourself returning to speaking
in Ukrainian. That is, when you talk about Donald Trump,
you can do it in Ukrainian or Russian. Everybody understands. Everybody understands. But you said that
there's some things about the war that maybe
Americans don't understand. So we talked about Putin. We we talked about the security guarantees,
but the reality of war, what's happening on the ground, what do
you think that people should understand? - First of all, they have
to understand the idea of Putin's war. It is very important for him. I consider this process. I think it is very important for him
not to give Ukraine independence. To prevent Ukraine
from developing as an independent country.
For him, influence, influence on Ukraine cannot be lost. And for, for him it is, you know, like I think. For him, this is such a goal, in this last mile,
and certainly for him. The last mile. And... of his... Of his political life. And I think that this is the goal for him.
The second story... I do not want to talk about these
banalities, that he wants to return all the territories of the Soviet Union,
influence over them. He does this little by little. I just don't want to...
People need to know details. For example, Georgia, which was
headed towards the EU and NATO completely turns towards Russia,
regardless of... of the fact that they have
frozen conflicts. They have in Abkhazia
what we have with Donbas, which is controlled by militant rebels. Abkhazia is not developing, it's just a
part, a very beautiful part of Georgia, that has died. And if you have the opportunity, then...
go there someday, you will understand, it simply died
because Putin wanted to. He wanted not to allow them to develop
because a frozen conflict means that you will not
be accepted in the EU and certainly will not be accepted
into NATO because right now, yes, they do not take you
because of a frozen conflict. And this is what Putin did. It's very important for him
not to lose this influence. That is, he turned back Georgia. Young people, students,
everyone leaves, and this is a fact. Georgia is quite small. And they will leave, they, they want
to live in Europe, they want to develop. Somebody in the United
States, somebody in Europe, somebody in the
EU, somebody in Britain. He will he will now fight for the
Moldovan parliament. This is his second step. You will see in April what happens. You will see, oh, he will start
turning Moldova away, away from Europe. Although they want to go there,
he does not care. There will be a
pro-Russian party, and they will do something with
the current president, because she...she has, she has won the the
elections, she is pro-European, but he... he will turn this back. The next steps are completely clear. He will do everything
wherever he has lost influence, where there was influence... influence of the Soviet Union. He'll turn it back as much as possible. And we understand at what price.
You have seen Syria. You saw these tortures, what we saw in
Bucha, what we saw everywhere we came and where our
territories were occupied. In Syria, the same happened. There were a thousand people there. And you have seen it, scientists
were found, doctors were found. It is clear that
any people are capable of generating their own opinion. Show their skills,
develop society. Everyone who can express an opinion, everyone who can shape
the independence and maturity of society,
such people are not needed. And he wants this in Ukraine. And therefore, everyone should understand
that Ukraine is like a large wall. From that Europe.
And if, God willing, President Trump does
not withdraw from NATO. Because, again,
I believe that this is the biggest risk. I think two steps. Two steps that Putin would like to see
is a weak NATO, and this without Trump? And... A weak Ukraine, which cannot survive on the battlefield,
simply cannot survive and prevent me from building a
strong relationship with Trump. I think these two steps,
leaving NATO and Ukraine's weakness, will lead to a large-scale war which Putin will wage on all
the territories of that Europe, post-Soviet Europe, I mean Soviet Europe,
not post-Soviet but post-World War II period,
that is, Soviet Europe Soviet-era Europe in order to completely control everything there. This is what he will do.
And besides this this will happen in any case,
even if the US is thinking about leaving NATO. This war will affect the United States
because North Korea is the first sign. North Korean skills,
North Korean knowledge, which they are now
gaining from this war. These include mastering new technologies,
large-scale drones, missiles, how it works, the kind of technological war
we have today, cyberwar, etc. All these skills Korea will bring home
and scale up in that region, and this will be a risk for the Pacific
region, security first and foremost for Japan and for... for South Korea. They will face these risks
hundred percent, and it will be clear that Taiwan will also have to face them. Without this it is impossible,
this is already happening. This is already happening. Therefore, I think that
President Trump has all power to stop Putin and give Ukraine
strong security guarantees. - We've been talking for two hours. Let us pause. You want to take the break? - Yeah, we will, we will make a pause. - We can
have coffee, right? Coffee? - Let's do it.
- Yeah. - And give the
interpreter… he is struggling. - Yeah. Some water. Some water. - We keep switching languages. - Like a dragon, you know?
Three heads, three translators. - So one of the difficult decisions you had to make
when the war began is to enact martial law. So, when you won the presidency,
you were the warrior for freedom. In fact, this war is for freedom, for freedom of the individual, freedom
of speech, freedom of religion, freedom. But a lot of freedoms
had to be curtailed, sacrificed in this fight
because there's so much focus on the war. Do you see the tension,
do you feel the tension of that, the sacrifice
that had to be made in democracy, in freedom, in fighting this war? - In any case, this war is for our freedom. Generally speaking, to be honest, when you understand, over time,
when the war passes, you understand
that your main values are at home. This is your home,
your children, your love, God willing, parents are alive, and if... and if not alive, then their memory,
visiting their grave. Choosing how to work,
how much, preferably choosing
where to work. All this is freedom. Freedoms are not just a desire,
they are an opportunity. In any case, you are right
because war is a limitation of opportunities. In any case. You fight for these opportunities. Your parents...
Your parents and God gave you life, right? You fight for your life. Your life. But we need to understand that first there is
a war and then martial law is introduced. Martial law is not
introduced because someone wanted to. You see,
this is not Pinochet. This is not Pinochet and so on.
This is a completely different story. An aggressor came
and according to your legislation, if the border is violated, if there is armed aggression,
you have all this written down, long ago written out in legislation,
you introduce martial law. And the introduction of
martial law everywhere, at all times means in any case
a restriction of opportunities. If opportunities are limited,
rights and freedoms are restricted, therefore, the war itself restricts
rights and freedoms. Yes... and you can't do anything about it. We... we try, honestly, to balance. As much as possible. I believe that the business sector works
despite the difficulties of the war and we do everything, somewhere, you know,
there, somewhere to reduce some load. Unfortunately, we cannot reduce taxes. On the contrary, a military tax is used for
war, you need to take money somewhere. This, by the way, is about the fact...
the fact that the US gave us a lot. And Europe too. But compared to how much we needed for the war, this is not all. As for military salaries, you know, you
know that we could not pay the salaries of a million-strong army, we could not pay it
using the money from our partners. These are all expenses, this is all the money that the
country and people have accumulated. You can't do anything.
I really want to reduce taxes, I will tell you frankly.
I really want to. Well, I think that the whole new tax
system, new deregulation, new steps, new reforms, all this
will be after the war. Although there is something
to brag about, this is proof. And this... this is a document
because if you want to get a candidacy for European Union, you must implement
the appropriate number of reforms. We do everything. During the war,
we voted for many reforms, including anti-corruption,
banking reforms, land reforms, major reforms. We started a large privatization
and the war did not stop us. Yes, it slowed down,
but we went through a lot. - When do you think
you will hold elections? Because for people
who don't know, as a part of the martial law,
elections were suspended, and they were delayed and delayed
and delayed. And I think the next sort of plan is in February of 2025. But when do you think there will
be presidential elections in Ukraine? - Elections were postponed once. They were not delayed, to be clear. Elections did not take place in 2024,
that year, first of all, we need to understand
the Constitution. They were scheduled to be held in the spring of 2024. Due to martial law under the Constitution,
you cannot do this. These...these are presidential elections. The parliamentary elections did not take place in the fall of 2024,
according to the Constitution. Yes, there are security
things, there is the Constitution, but there
are security things. That is, everyone in
Ukraine understands that this cannot be done
until the war is over, or legislation needs to be changed. I believe that
elections will take place immediately after the end of martial law -
this is according to the law. Or members of the parliament
need to get together and change legislation,
which will be... will be very difficult to do
because society is against it. Why is society against? It is understandable why because we want elections that we want to trust. 8.5 million people went abroad. The infrastructure needs to be created for
these millions of people to vote. Millions of people
in the occupied territories. I am not even talking
about the occupation of 2014. I am talking about the
occupation right now. What to do with these people? This is a difficult question. And one of the most unfair ones is
how to vote, without having a million soldiers. That is, it is impossible. We need to think about how to change the system,
if the elections are held in times of war, change the legislation, which should
include changes to the voting system. To think about online voting, everyone
is afraid because of certain attacks, like cyberattacks, and so on,
but, we need to think about it. I really think that it's possible, that we can end the war in 2025. - In January. We've already agreed on it. - I would very much like
to. I would very much like to. - After, after the war? - And immediately. Yes immediately. In the year of the end of the war,
it's a fact. Why? Because when martial
law ends, you can immediately vote in
parliament to hold elections. And then everyone,
everyone will vote. Because there are no restrictive measures. And after they vote, I think elections
can be held in 90 days. Something,
something like that. Yes. And this means that immediately
after the end of the war, elections may take place in 90 days. - Are you running for re-election? - Even I don't know,
really. I don't know. I don't know. It is a very difficult question. It depends on how this war will finish.
It depends on what people will want. Mostly, it depends on people, first of all,
and of course, my family. We had no time to speak about it
with, with my family and, and of course didn't have a chance because
we don't think about it now. I mean, it's something, you know,
there are a lot of some, not a lot of, but enough voices in Ukraine from
politicians, opposition, and etc. about this. Yes. But, but we don't
think really seriously, didn't think seriously
with my family about it. So, this is war. I mean,
how to think about what will be after? It's very
difficult, really very difficult. - If we look at the field of candidates, I
just maybe you can give your opinion about the set of ideas
you see out there, including your own,
about the future of Ukraine. As I understand, the
candidates include Poroshenko, Zaluzhny, Arestovich, Budanov,
Klitschko, and many others. This is the internet
speaking to me, heh. What do you think of the space of
ideas that these candidates represent? - You know, I think it can be, there can
be even a bigger number of candidates. Yeah, I don't really
know what will be. They have rights to
participate if they want to. Yes, if they really
want to and can they, they can go and do
what they want, honestly. Most important is what are they doing now,
I think that all these people are famous Ukrainian people, and it's, and it's important for them to
do everything they can today not begin any election campaign. I think this what can divide
our people to have the elections, you know, during
the war, I mean, this make steps, speak about elections
a lot, you know, make a big mess about it. I,
I think this is not right. That's why I'm not agreeing
with some of these people, but they, they can, and they,
I, I think that they can, and maybe some of them will,
and it's okay. It's normal. It's very normal. Our system differs
from the system in the United States. You have two parties, and the
parties decide who will be the leader. And in Ukraine, everybody
can participate. Let them. - You think you're going to win the debate? You versus Zaluzhny, Poroshenko,
Arestovich, and you decide to run. Do you think you're
going to win the debate? Or you're again
focused on the war. - Oh, I'm really focusing on the war and...
- I understand. - I think, I, I think the most difficult... debate is what will be brought to
the table, and we spoke about it. It will be during the war,
how to finish the war. I think that is my goal because it will
be one of my most complicated debates. And for any president who is in a war, of
course, but I think this is my goal to win those debates and the other
things are not, not for today. - As I said, the
dream I have is... it's a historic opportunity
to make peace, to make lasting peace. Soon. So I'm
glad you're focused on that. Let me ask a question about, that a lot
of people in the United States think about, uh, and I care a lot about the
future of Ukraine, is corruption. This is something you have
cared a lot about for a long time. You won the presidency in 2019, in big
part, your message of fighting corruption. But there's a lot of
accusations that during war, I mentioned $9 trillion in the
United States, war breeds corruption. So can you speak to that, how
you have been fighting corruption? And can you respond to the accusations
that has been corruption in Ukraine? You know, it's very simple. First of all, we really have a very
sophisticated anti-corruption system. Sophisticated not in the
sense that it's difficult to understand, but in that it really
consists of many elements. It's the most sophisticated
in all of Europe. This is another requirement
of the European Union. It was a requirement for Ukraine, and
for many years, Ukraine was not trusted. I want to tell you that
under me, we all voted for bills, all the... anti-corruption reforms, all,
well, almost all reforms, and all anti-corruption bodies today
are independent, they work. As requested. I still believe that they
are not perfect yet, there are many issues. There is a judicial system, but
also a judicial reform that our partners — the United States
plus the EU — demanded from us. This is all written out.
This is written out in specific laws, in specific decrees,
in specific decisions. We did this. We've done 99% of
this. If something has not been done, it means
that it is on the way. But, in principle,
all this exists, and there is no such system
as we have in Europe. To say that we do
not have corruption would be lying. We
just talk about it openly. We are genuinely
fighting against it. Look, we have sitting in our prison Ihor
Kolomoyskyi, who is the most influential Ukrainian oligarch since independence.
And no one could do anything about him. The United States of America
wanted to have Kolomoisky, and they went to great lengths
because of money laundering, etc. There are criminal
cases in the United States, I think in Delaware,
something like that. Neither Europe could do anything about
it. That is, we did a lot with oligarchs. Russian oligarchs, sanctions
were imposed, they were thrown out, some of
them fled the state, but they are all... they
are all under sanctions. We exchanged some of
them for our soldiers, such as Medvedchuk, to whose
daughter Putin is godfather. That is, we fought against the
strongest influential oligarchs, which, uhm, are and were in Ukraine,
and we eliminated a lot of corruption. Of course, corruption exists
in everyday life, it exists, but institutionally, I am sure that
Ukraine will overcome all this. This takes a little time. I
would say honestly that... Listen, what we call corruption, and
in some state of the world is called lobbyism, but this does not mean
that there is no corruption there. Let's take the aid you
mentioned. During the war. First of all, we have no money. We have no money
except for the war. We received weapons from the
United States of America, from Europe. If we take, for example, money
from the United States of America. During all this time of the war, around 177 billion have been
voted for or decided upon. 177 billion. Let's be honest. We
have not received half of this money. The second point, which is very important,
just as an example, is it corruption? The first question. Whose corruption?
This is the second. Here is just one
small example for you. When the United States
began to transfer us weapons, it was American money,
but American weapons. Money for these weapons. I had... as a president,
I had cargo jets. Not in Ukraine, because of the war,
we moved them very quickly to Europe. We had cargo. We
have good cargo fleet. Very good, of, because
of Antonov. So I asked... American side to grant me the
opportunity, because our jets are at another, yeah, airfield and I asked
America to give me the opportunity to use our jets for
transfer. Not to pay a lot. To whom? To your companies.
To American companies. No, I didn't get
this opportunity. My jets stayed put and the United States jets,
cargo jets moved these weapons. But everywhere you
have to spend money. So... We could get more weapons, but we
have to pay for this very expensive fleet. My question. Is this corruption or not?
Or lobbyism? What is it? - You mean corruption on the part
of the comp, the US companies? - Yes, making such decisions.
- Yes I got it. - The lobbying for such decisions
involves some companies that make these decisions, but I can't be open about
it and I couldn't speak loudly about it. I didn't want, I didn't
want nor did I intend to cause any scandals to
arise, because otherwise you can freeze the
support. And that's it.
- [Lex] Yeah. And that's why when we talk about
corruption, we must ask, who is involved? If we had 177 and if we get
the half, where is the half? If you will find the second
half you will find corruption. - There is a perception of corruption. People like Donald Trump and Elon Musk
really care, uh, about fighting corruption. What can you say to them to
gain their trust that the money is going towards this fight for
freedom, towards the war effort? - In most cases, we did not receive
money, we received weapons. And where we saw risks that
something could be happening with weapons, we cracked down
hard on everyone. And believe me, this is
not only about Ukraine. Everywhere along the supply chain,
there are some or other people and companies who want to make money,
they try to make money on the war. We did not profit from the war. If we caught someone, believe me,
we cracked down hard on them. and... and we did that, and we
will continue to do so. Because to this day, when someone says that
Ukraine was selling weapons — and, by the way, Russia was
the one pushing this narrative — we always
responded: our soldiers would kill such people with
their own hands, without any trial. Do you honestly think anyone
could steal weapons by the truckload when we ourselves
don’t have enough on the front lines? And yet, we have to provide proof
to defend ourselves. Because when there’s an abundance of such
misinformation, distrust starts to grow. And you're right,
people listen to various media outlets, see this,
and lose faith in you. In the end, you lose trust,
and with it, you lose support. Therefore, believe me, we are fighting
more against disinformation than against particular cases, although I still emphasize once again,
at the everyday level such things are still important. We catch
these... these people, and we fight them. - I mentioned Elon Musk: I would be
interested to hear what you think of him, why you respect him as
a person, as an engineer, as an innovator,
as a businessman. I would just like to hear from you,
what do you think about Elon Musk? - First of all, I had a
conversation with him at the beginning of the
war. I talked with him. I respect him,
first and foremost, I respect the
self-made man, right? In English, I love
such people. You know...
-[Lex] Yes. No one, and nothing fell
into their lap, but the man did something, did it all
himself. I worked myself created a big production company,
and I know what it means to make money, to make money, to
select talented people, to impart knowledge to them, to
invest money and to create something. Something important for
certain people. You know. And I am not, I'm not
comparing myself to Musk. He just, well, the
man is a great leader of innovations in the world. And I believe
that such people move the world forward. Therefore, I respect
the result of his work. And we see this result. And for me it has always
been important that your result can be used, that
these are not words, but facts. Let's take the war. Uhm, We
are very grateful for Starlink. It has helped. We used it after Russian missile
attacks on the energy infrastructure, there were problems with the
Internet, etc., with connection. We used Starlink both at
the front and in kindergartens. It was used in schools,
it helped children. We used it in various infrastructure.
And it helped us very much. And I would very much
like Elon to be on our side as much as possible,
to... to support us. And yes I am grateful to
him for Starlink, truly I am. First of all, so that our guys have
a connection, and children, too. And I am really... I am really grateful
to him for that. I think we need... I would like him to
come to Ukraine, to talk to people here, and to
look around and so on. - Has Elon visited
Kyiv or Ukraine yet? - No. - I hope the Kyiv
airport will open soon. Then it will... it will
be easier to fly in. - Yes, I am... I am
looking forward to it. Maybe we will open it, but only, and
you must understand, if the war is over. There must be sustainable peace
and air defense systems, to be honest. And we must ensure that they
are long lasting and effective. Let's take the airport, for example,
and let's focus on the airport in Rzeszów, which you know very well, as it is handling
important cargo for Ukraine in Poland. And there are patriot
systems there, because everyone understands what
the risk is. Well, Russia is a risk, and therefore we need
air defense systems. And today, today take, for
example, the air defense system… of one city or another
that is being shelled, and move it, move
it to the airport. Well, that would be dishonest.
People are more important than planes. But there will be a moment, and Trump,
by the way, I think that the war will end, and President Trump may be the
first leader to travel here by airplane. I think it would be, it would
be symbolic, by airplane. - Again, January 25th,
around that date, right? Flying in, meeting
the Air Force One. - Oh that would be cool.
- Elon Musk. I will meet you there for the
second time too, on the plane. - With pleasure. - And you, by the way,
before I forget. Let me ask, are you coming on January 20th
for President Trump's inauguration? - I would like to, of course, I will be considering what is
happening then in the war, because there are moments of difficulties,
escalation, many missiles, etc., but honestly, well, I can't I can't come, especially
during the war, unless President Trump
invites me personally. I'm not sure it's proper to come,
because I know that in general leaders are for some reason not usually
invited to the inauguration of the presidents of the
United States of America. Well and I know that there
are leaders who can simply come, want to come, and
will come. Yeah I know. And I know the temperament of some of these
people, they can come at their discretion. This is very, very difficult
for me. I am the kind of person that cannot
come without an invitation. This is Putin, we did
not invite him, he came to us, so to say. And
me? I can't do that. - No, but didn't he
publically say that it would be great if you came
to the inauguration? Or, you mean, did
he invited officially...
- No, wait, look, look, look, well... Listen I am against any
bureaucracy, I get rid of it as, as much as I can, but... Well, you know, there are some complexities
involving security. I decide and I fly. And the United States
of America officially provides security... Not
that I need this, mind you. I do not ask for
helicopters to fly around and protect me. But they will
simply do it themselves. The Security Service itself. They had to do
it. I don't want it. And sometimes I don't
need it. And I'm asking them. It was, for example,
before the war. it, I think, yes, it was
before, before the war. I just, I just, I had a meeting,
yes, with President Trump. It was in 2019. I just wanted, just
wanted to go for a run early in the morning because I
really wanted to exercise. And they, those tall bodyguards, a
lot of them, they decided to join me. But I couldn't really do
it because they were in suits and I was in
sportswear. I said, no, I can't. It's always funny. I'm not,
I don't want to, you know, I don't want to disturb anybody
and cause anyone problems with me. And that's, that's why,
if he, if he will invite me I will come. - I thought he invited you. - Yeah? - Yeah. I thought he publicly invited
you, but okay. I hope to see you there. - I think they had to. I mean... - Okay, alright.
- ...to do some of their steps, I don't know, but... - Step... the stamp was missing. - Yeah, but with pleasure
with my wife, of course, and I think it's
important. It's important. - Alright, let's get back
to a serious question... Sometimes they say it in America,
this question of who is really in power. So, let me ask, is
someone controlling you? For example, oligarchs,
American politicians. Yermak? (Ha-ha-ha-ha!) I wanted to bringing
this up, because I have been here in Ukraine... since
the... twice since the invasion of 2022. And one of the things I've learned well
is that... actually nobody controls you. And... this is... this is one of your
strengths as president, as a person, that oligarchs and other rich
and powerful people like that, cannot control you. Can you
explain why that is, how you see it? - I think, and it is indeed true, that
I am generally difficult to deal with. I am an ambitious person. I can't submit to anyone. I
can live by rules, by laws. I believe that this is the only thing
that can control any person today. These are the rules and laws of
the society or state where you live. And I believe that this
is the most important thing. There is no person
who could control me. As I once told President
Trump, when we had a meeting, by the way, journalists
asked if Trump influenced me during the phone call. I
told him, I told the journalists the truth then, who can
influence me — only my... my boy, my son. This
is a fact. When he calls asking for something,
well, then I lift up my arms. Yes, and I cannot do
anything about it, because children are children, I have
so little time with them, and therefore when there
are these moments, they are precious and important
to me, I am ready to do anything. Also, probably, my parents,
they are an authority for me. Beyond that, I view it more as a
system. No one can control the President. Therefore, we have oligarchs who
either fled or are in prison because oligarchs usually control cash flows
and people, and influence politics. And we have concrete
examples with sentences. They are not just
under house arrest. Not just that there are some
judgments under which their assets were frozen
or sanctions were imposed. There are specific people
who are behind bars. I think this is the answer
regarding the influence. Would they like to influence me in the
same way as any president of Ukraine because finance and cash
flows always influence politics? Well, at least,
they want to do this. This is regarding the influence.
And other people on the vertical, they perform tasks as my... my managers.
Andrii you mentioned is one of those managers, well, I am glad
that I have such people. Well, probably, there is
nothing else to add here. - I will just say that your
team that I spoke with is an excellent team,
excellent people. - Thank you. Okay, one last question.
The future of Ukraine. If you look 5, 10, 20
years into the future. What can help Ukraine
flourish economically, culturally, politically
in the future? - Digital, it's very important. Digitalization of all the
process. We began this work. We have special Ministry
of Digital Transformation. - Ah yeah?
- Yeah. So, this is very
good. And we also have our Diia, this is the name for
all of these services. Yeah. So I think that is the most
important. This is again, this is not only convenient,
that will cancel all the, any possibilities for future corruption
because you don't have any, you know, you don't have any personal connections
with people in the government or elsewhere. So you are just on your
phone or any other device. That's it. And I think
we are doing very well. We are the best in Europe. All of Europe recognizes it. Some countries of the African
Union asked us to provide this, the same service, and we will
do it after the war immediately. And I think that we can bring
money to Ukraine from this. And I think what we also
need, we need a tax reform. I think it will be very important
for the businesses to return. A lot of support will come, I think
from USA business investment, not as direct aid to us, just to
the private sector and resources. And I mentioned this to
President Trump, and to some European leaders who are
our key strategic partners that... we'll be happy, especially with
the Americans, we'll be happy to sign these contracts and engage
in joint investments in many areas. And, and I think we
can... We can develop oil, gas, green energy,
including solar power. And we already have the resources,
we can invest money into this. We have oil reserves in the Black Sea, that
we can, we can exploit. And we need your expertise and the
investment of your companies, we have
gold and uranium reserves, the largest in Europe, by the
way, which is also very important. For example, Russia
has pushed France out of Africa. They urgently need
uranium, which we have. So we are ready to
open up for investments. - And this will give us, of course,
opportunities, jobs for people, revenue. I don't want cheap labor, honestly. What I truly want,
especially after the war, to open up for those
people who can really contribute and earn. Yes. - Yeah, give a reason to
the 8 million people to come back. - Yes, it's so important. And they will come
and we will recover and rebuild Ukraine. We will be very open to
companies, and, of course, we will welcome our
people back. It's so important. Culturally... I think the most important thing is to
remain open and not change our direction. Because culturally
aligning with Russia, it's one idea, while aligning
with Europe is another. Our people have chosen Europe. It's their choice, it's
our choice, the choice of our nation, and I
think it's very important. - But first you
have to end the war. - Yes, you're right, and we
will. We want peace, you know. I mean, just to make it clear, we
want peace, just what I always say. You have to come to
Ukraine and see for yourself, and people will tell
you: "no, we can't forgive those murderers who took our... our
lives, but we still want to make peace". And honestly, I think that
the highest approval rating of the president of the
United States, of Trump, now... is in Ukraine. People really believe
that he can truly help bring peace. Now
they have faith... faith. that he can make it happen. That he
can support Ukraine and he can stop Putin. And that he will make sure Putin
doesn't get everything he wants. This is very important and
it's why we believe that we must not lose this opportunity. - I hope you find the path
to peace. Thank you. - Thank you so much.
- Thank you for talking to me. - Thank you for coming.
- "Dyakyu" (trying to say “thank you” in Ukrainian) - "Dyakyu" (saying “thank you” in Ukrainian) Yeah. You... you started. Thank you very much. - Thank you for listening to this conversation
with the President of Ukraine, Volodymyr Zelenskyy. And now, let me answer some questions and try to
reflect on and articulate some things I've been thinking about. If you would like to submit questions, including
in audio and video form, go to lexfridman.com/ama or to contact me for whatever other reason, go to
lexfridman.com/contact First, I got a bunch of questions about this. So, let me chat about the topic of language and,
let's say, the mechanics of multilingual conversation. Perhaps the details are interesting to some
people. It also allows me to reflect back on the puzzle of
it in this episode and what I can do better next time. I already explained in the intro the symbolic,
historic, and geopolitical complexity of the choice of language in the conversation
with President Zelenskyy. As I said, the Russian language is one that the
President speaks fluently and was his primary language for most of his life. I speak Russian fluently as well. It's the only common language we are both fluent
in. So, any other combination of languages required
an interpreter, including when I spoke English. He did need an interpreter when I spoke English. And, just like I was, was visibly encumbered and
annoyed by the process of interpretation. This is why I tried to speak in Russian to the
President instead of English, so that he can directly understand me without an
interpreter. I'm willing to take the hit for that, as I am for
everything else. I'm not trying to protect myself. I'm trying to do whatever is best for the
conversation, for understanding. Though it has been
getting harder and harder to stay open, vulnerable,
and raw in public. While the swarms of chanting internet mobs stop
by with their torches and their color-coded hats, flags, frogs, pronouns, and hashtags. Anyway, there is a lot of nuanced aspects of the
conversational language that I would like to explain here. I'll try to be brief.. I can recommend a lot of books on this topic of
language and communication that reveal just how amazing this technology of
language is. For example, for a good overview, I recommend
John McWhorter's books, and especially his lecture series for the great
courses on language. There are several. In the Story of Human Language series, he gives a
great discussion on spoken language versus written language. And that spoken language often relaxes the rules
of communication. It uses shorter packets of words, loads in a bunch
of subtle cues and meanings, all of which, like I'm
trying to describe, are lost when there's an
interpreter in the loop. Let me also describe some relevant
characteristics of my "peculiar language
abilities", in quotes. I was never good at speaking. I listen, think, and understand better than I
speak. For me, this is true for both English and Russian. But it is especially true for Russian. The Russian language allows for much more room
for wit, non-standard terms of phrase, metaphors, humor, rhyme, musicality, and,
let's say, deforming of words. That create a lot of room for creativity in how
meaning and emotion are conveyed. You could do the same in English, but it's harder. I actually find that Brits are sometimes very
good at this. Like, one of my favorite humans to talk to is
Douglas Murray. Setting the content of the conversation aside,
the sheer linguistic brilliance and wit of dialogue with Douglas is a journey in
itself. I think Christopher Hitchens had the same. And many others. Like I said, especially Brits. Anyway, I'm able to
detect and understand a lot of dynamism and humor
in the Russian language. But I'm slow to generate it. In part because I just don't practice. I have very few Russian-speaking friends. Funny enough, most of them are Ukrainian. But they speak with me and each other in Russian. But of course, as I mentioned, this is slowly
changing due to the war. But I tried to speak to the President in Russian so
he would avoid needing an interpreter as much as possible. One of the things I want to improve for next time is
to make sure I get very good equipment for interpretation. And arrange for an interpreter I trust to be
exceptionally good for the dynamism and the endurance of a three-hour conversation in
the style that I tried to do. Just to give you some behind-the-scenes details
of the experience. So equipment-wise, funny enough, it's not
actually so trivial to set up wireless connections from us, the two people talking, to
the interpreter, and then back to us. In a way that's super robust and has clean audio. The audio I had in my ear from the interpreter had a
loud background noise. So the whole time, I'm hearing a shh sound with the
voice of the interpreter coming in very quietly. What a wonderful experience. This whole life is, frankly. Plus, his translation was often incomplete, at
least for me. So I had to put together those puzzle pieces
continuously. But again, it worked out. And hopefully our constant switching of
languages and having a meta-discussion about language provided good insights as to the
complexity of this fight for a nation's identity and sovereignty that Ukraine is going
through. Behind the scenes, off mic, on a personal level,
President Zelenskyy was funny, thoughtful, and just a kind-hearted person. And really, the whole team were just great people. It was an experience I'll never forget. After the conversation was recorded, the next
challenge was to translate all of this and overdub it and do it super quickly. Like, these words I'm speaking now have to be
translated and dubbed into Ukrainian and Russian. Eleven Labs were really helpful here,
especially in bringing the President's voice to life in different languages. But even more than that,
they're just an amazing team who inspired me
and everyone involved. Please go support Eleven Labs. They are a great company and great people. The translation is separate
from the text-to-speech and was done in part
by AI and a lot by human. This is where the fact that
we had constant switching between three languages
was a real challenge. So there are six transition mappings that have to
be done. English to Ukrainian and Russian. Ukrainian to English and Russian. And then Russian to English and Ukrainian. Continuously. Sentence by sentence. Sometimes word by word. And each combination of language to language
translation is best done by a person who specializes in that kind of mapping. So it was all a beautiful mess.
All of it. And on top of all that, great translation is super
hard. For example, I've read
and listened to a lot of Dostoevsky in both
English and Russian. And studied the process of how these books are
translated by various translators. You can spend a week discussing how to translate a
single important sentence well. Obviously, in this situation, we don't have
weeks. We have hours for the whole thing. One of the things I regret is not putting enough
time into the hiring and selecting great translators. From Russian and Ukrainian to English,
especially. I think translation is an art. So getting a good translator that works well with
us is a process that needs more time and effort. I'll be doing that more this month. By the way, we have a small but amazing team. If you want to join us, go to lexfridman.com/hiring If you're passionate, work hard, and everyone on
the team loves working with you, then we'll do some epic stuff together. We'd love to work with you. Like I said about Eleven Labs, there are a few
things as awesome in life as being able to work hard with
an amazing team towards a mission all of us
are passionate about. Anyway, I'll probably be doing a few more
interviews in the Russian language. I do have a lingering goal of interviewing the
mathematician Grigori Perelman, but there's also others. I will also work on improving my whole pipeline,
both equipment-wise and interpreter-wise, in doing these conversations in other languages. Because there are many that I would like to do in
languages I don't speak at all, like Chinese, Mandarin, or Spanish, Arabic,
Hindi, Portuguese, French, German. I see language as both a barrier for
communication and a portal into understanding the spirit of a people connected by that language. It's all a weird and
beautiful puzzle, and I'm just excited to get the
chance to explore it. All right, I got a question on how I prepare for
podcasts. So this has evolved and expanded more and more
over time. There are some podcasts that I prepare hundreds
of hours for. In AI terms, let's say, first, I'm training a
solid background model by consuming as much variety on the topic as possible. A lot of this comes down to picking high-signal
sources, whether it's blogs, books, podcasts, YouTube videos, X-accounts, and so on. For this conversation with President Zelenskyy,
for example, since February 2022, I've spoken with hundreds of people on the ground. I've read Kindle or audiobook - about 10 books
fully, and then I skimmed about 20 more. And I don't mean books about Zelenskyy, although
he does appear in some of them. I mean books where
this conversation was fully in the back of my mind
as I'm reading the book. So, for example, I read Red Famine by Anne
Applebaum. It's about Holodomor. Does it directly relate to Zelenskyy? Not on the surface, no. But it sort of continues to weave the fabric of my
understanding of a people, of a history of the region. But it's really important for me to read books
from various perspectives. And I'm always trying to calculate the bias under
which the author operates, and adjusting for that in my brain as I integrate the
information. For example, Anne
Applebaum's book, Gulag, is very different from Aleksandr
Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago. The former is a rigorous, comprehensive
historical account. The latter is a literary, psychological, and
personal portrait of Soviet society. Both, I think, are extremely valuable. On the bias front, for
example, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich
by William Shirer is a good example. It is full of bias. But he was there, and to me, he has written
probably one of the greatest, if not the greatest, book on the Third Reich ever. But like I said, it has a lot of inaccuracies and
biases. You can read about them online if you like. But my job, in this case, and in all cases, is to
adjust, based on my understanding of the author's biases, and take the wisdom from the text, where it can be
found, and putting the inaccuracies aside into the
proverbial dustbins of history. So as I'm reading, I'm writing down my thoughts as
they come up, always digging for some deeper insight about
human nature. If I'm at my computer, I'll write it down in Google
Doc, sometimes use Notion or Obsidian. If I'm not on my computer, I'll use Google Keep. So, for example, if I'm listening to an
audiobook, and I'm running along the river, if a good idea comes to mind, I'll stop, think for a
few seconds, and then do speech-to-text note in Google Keep. By the way, listening to audiobook at 1x speed. Old school. And eventually, I get a gigantic pile of thoughts
and notes that I look over to refresh my memory. But for the most part, I just throw them out. It's a background model building process. By the way, LLMs are increasingly becoming
useful here for organization purposes, but have not yet been useful, at least for me. And I do try a lot for insight extraction or
insight generation purposes. I should mention that my memory for specific
facts, names, dates, quotes is terrible. What I remember well is high-level ideas. That's just how my brain works, for better or for
worse. I realize that sometimes forgetting all of the
details and the words needed to express them makes me sound simplistic and even unprepared. I'm not. But that's life. We have to accept our flaws and roll with them. Aside from books, I also listen to a lot of
podcasts and YouTube videos where people are talking about the topic. So for the President
Zelenskyy episode, I listened probably to
hundreds of hours of content from his supporters and from his critics from all
sides. Again, I choose who to listen to based not on their
perspective, but based on SNR, signal-to-noise ratio. If I'm regularly getting insights from a person,
I will continue listening to them, whether I agree or disagree. In the end, this turns out to be a lot of hours of
prep. But to say that it's X hours per episode is not
accurate because a lot of this preparation transfers from
one guest to another, even when there's an insane level of variety in
the guests. We're all humans, after all. There is a thread
that connects all of it together, somehow, if
you look closely enough. For more technical guests in STEM fields, I'll
read papers. A lot of papers. And also technical blog posts and technical
tweet threads. This is a very different process. For AI or CS-related topics, I will run other
people's code. I will write my own, implement stuff from scratch. If it's a software company, I'll use their tools
and software if relevant. But in the actual
conversation, I constantly am searching for simple
but profound insights at various levels of abstraction. Sometimes this means asking a trivial question
in hopes of uncovering the non-trivial, counter intuitive but fundamental idea that
opens the door to a whole new way of looking at the field. And actually, every guest is their own puzzle. Like preparing for Rick Rubin was me listening to
hundreds of songs he produced and even learning some on guitar, like Hurt by
Johnny Cash. Preparing for the Cursor team
episode meant, obviously, I had to use Cursor fully
for several weeks, all of its features. So I switched completely for VS Code to Cursor. For Paul Rosolie, round two especially, I
literally went deep into the jungle with Paul and almost died, fully taking the leap toward
adventure with him. When it gets close to
the conversation, I'll start working on the actual
interview questions and notes. And there I'm asking myself: What am I personally
curious about? Like, I love podcasts. I'm a big fan of many, many podcasts. And so I ask myself, what would
I want this person to explain on a podcast? And maybe what aspect of their thought process or
their humanity would I want to be surfaced or have the chance to be surfaced? In the actual conversation, I always try to put my
ego aside completely and do whatever it takes to have a good conversation and serve the
listener. This means asking questions simply, trying to
define terms and give context if needed, being open-minded, vulnerable, curious, and
challenging the guests when needed. Despite the claims on the internet, I do ask a lot
of challenging questions, including follow-ups, but always with empathy. I don't need to be right. I don't need to signal my moral or intellectual
superiority to anyone. I try to do the opposite, actually. Because I want the guest to open up. And I trust the intelligence of the listener to
see for themselves if the guest is full of shit or not. To detect the flaws and the strengths of how the
guest thinks or who they are deep down. A lot of times when interviewers grill the guest,
it doesn't reveal much except give a dopamine hit to the echo
chambers who hate the guest. As I said in the intro, I
believe the line between good and evil does run
through the heart of every man. The resulting conversations are sometimes a
failure. Sometimes because they are too short. Sometimes because the chemistry was just not
working. Sometimes because I fucked it up. I try to take risks. Give it everything I got. And enjoy the roller coaster of it all. No matter what. And, as I said, I trust the listener to put it all
together. And I trust the critic to tear it apart. And I love you all for it. Alright.
I got a bit of a fun question. It's a long one.
So, Delyan. Cool name. Wrote and said he spotted me out in the wild and
had a question about it. He wrote, I saw Lex working at
the Detroit airport between flights. I hesitated and
ultimately decided not to interrupt since he was
in focus mode. True. Lex had his headphones earbuds on, listening to
brown noise. Microsoft Surface propped up at eye level. Kinesis Advantage keyboard on the table. The use of Microsoft Windows is surprising. But it has been discussed in the past.
True. The ergonomics of the
setup, Surface at eye level, means that Lex
cares about his health. But the anomalously large
Kinesis Advantage keyboard seems like such a burden
to lug around airports. I cannot help but ask. Why is it that Lex is going through the hassle to
bring this absolutely large keyboard with him as carry-on? It barely fits in a backpack. Carrying it around must be necessary for Lex for
some reason. I love the puzzle of this, that you're trying to
think through this. The pain of lugging this tool around must be much
smaller than the problem it solves for? Question mark. What problem does this keyboard solve? What makes it necessary at the airport? Productivity? Health? RSI? Good questions.
Thank you, Delyan. Great question.
It made me smile. So I thought I'd answer.
I remember that day. There was something else about that day aside
from the keyboard that I miss. So I am filled with a melancholy feeling that is
appropriate for the holiday season. So let me try to set the melancholy feeling aside. And answer a question about my computer setup when
I'm traveling. So whether I'm going
to SF, Boston, Austin, London, or the front
in Ukraine, I am always bringing the Kinesis keyboard. I don't have RSI or any other health issues of that
kind that I'm aware of, even though I've been programming, playing guitar, doing
all kinds of combat sports my whole life, all of which put my hands and fingers in a lot of
precarious positions and situations. For that reason, and in general, ergonomics have
never been a big concern for me. I can work on a crappy chair and table, sleep on the
floor. It's all great. I'm happy with all of it. So why Kinesis? Which, by the way, is right here. I had to think about it. Your question actually made me reflect. And I was hoping as I'm answering it, the truth
will come out on many levels. So it is true that I'm more productive with it. I can type and correct mistakes very fast
compared to a regular keyboard, both in natural language
typing and in programming. So fast enough, I think, where it feels like I can
think freely without the physical bottlenecks
and constraints of fingers moving. The bit rate in Neuralink parlance is high enough
for me to not feel like there is cognitive friction
of any kind. But the real answer may be the deeper, more honest
answer or something else. I've used the Kinesis keyboard for over 20 years. So maybe it's like one of those love stories where
a guy and a girl love each other. And you try to quit because it doesn't quite work. But every time you leave, you ask yourself why. And then you realize that when you're together,
your life is just full of simple joys. So what's the point of leaving? What's the point of life if not to keep close to you
the things that bring you joy, Delyan? Like this keyboard. It brings me joy. It's a bad metaphor. Over-anthropomorphized, perhaps. But I never promised a good one. I'm like a cheap motel on a road trip. Low quality is part of the charm. I do have some good motel stories for another time. This does not feel like the appropriate time. All that said, to disagree with myself, I did use
eMacs also for over 20 years. And in a single week recently, switched to VS Code. And then Cursor. And never looked back. So take my romantic nature with a grain of salt. So yes, eventually I'll have to leave. But for now, you'll keep finding me on occasion in
a random airport somewhere listening to brown noise, writing away the hours on this Kinesis keyboard. If you see me without it, maybe it'll give you the
same change of melancholy feeling I feel now, in looking back
to that airport in Detroit. Anyway, more about my travel setup, if anyone is
curious. I usually do travel with a Windows laptop, but I am mostly using Linux on it through WSL,
Windows Subsystem for Linux. And in some cases, I'm dual booting Linux and
Windows. I also need to be able to video edit. So on longer trips, I usually have a bigger laptop
with a bigger screen, lots of memory, good CPU, good GPU. All of that helps with video editing on Adobe
Premiere. In general, I'm extremely
minimalist, except for the few, let's call
them sentimental things. Like, all my podcast recording equipment fits
into a small suitcase. I try to keep it as simple as possible. Thank you for the question. And see you at the next airport. All right. I think it's time
to bring things to a close. I'd like to give a big
thanks to you for giving me your time and your
support over the years. It means the world. If you want to get in touch with me, go to
lexfridman.com/contact There, you can get feedback, ask questions,
request guests for the podcast, or submit the Coffee with Lex form if you just want
to chat with me over a cup of coffee. I'll be traveling across
the world a bunch this year, from Europe to
South America and more. So it would be cool to do some small meet ups and
meet some interesting people. This has been a journey of a lifetime. Thank you for everything. On to the next adventure.
I love you all.