Brett Johnson: US Most Wanted Cybercriminal | Lex Fridman Podcast #272
- I was on the run for four
months, stole $600,000. I was in Las Vegas, Nevada one day. The night before, I'd
stolen 160K out of ATMs. The next morning I woke up, signed on to cardersmarket.com, which was ran by Max Butler, the Iceman. And there's my name, US Most Wanted on it. And that gets your attention. It was my real name with the
US Most Wanted beside of it. Nobody knew my real name
in that environment at all, but then they did. And it was talking about me being part of the Secret Service
Operation, AnglerPhish, everything else. So, of course they're all like-
- So everybody's after you. - They're like, oh yeah, we're
gonna get the son of a bitch. - The following is a conversation with Brett Johnson, a
former cyber criminal who built the first organized
cyber crime community called ShadowCrew. That is the precursor to today's darknet and darknet markets. He's referred to by the
United States Secret Service as quote, "The Original
Internet Godfather." He has been the central figure
in the cyber crime world for almost 20 years, placed
on the US Most Wanted list in 2006 before being
convicted of 39 felonies for cyber crime, escaped from prison, and then eventually being
locked up, served his time, and now is helping people
understand fight cyber crime. This was a raw, honest,
emotional, and real episode. Brett has caused a lot of
pain to a lot of people, and yet his own story is
full of trauma and pain, and also redemption and love. This is a good time to say that I have, and I will talk to people who
have served time in prison and perhaps people who
currently are in prison. I will try to do my best to both empathize with the person across from me and not let them sugarcoat, explain away or dismiss the crimes they committed. This is a tough line to walk because if you close your
heart to the other person, you'll never fully understand
their mind and their story. But if you open the heart too
much, you can be manipulated to where the conversation
reveals nothing honest or real. This requires skill and
willingness to take the risk. I don't know about the skill part, but I'd like to take the risk. I always wear my heart on my sleeve. If I get hurt for it, that's life. As I've said, I want to understand what makes a person do these crimes, the particular characteristics
of their temporary or permanent madness,
their justifications, but also their humanity. I believe each of us have the capacity to become both the criminal and the victim, the predator and the prey. It's up to us to avoid these paths or to find the path to redemption. It's on each of us. It's our responsibility and burden of being human in a complicated and dangerous world. This is the "Lex Friedman Podcast". To support it, please
check out our sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends,
here's Brett Johnson. You were convicted of 39
felonies for cyber crime placed on the US Most Wanted list in 2006, escaped from prison. You built the first organized
cyber crime community called ShadowCrew, that is the
precursor to today's darknet and darknet markets. And for all this, the US
intelligence service called you the original internet Godfather. So first question, how did your career as a cyber crime criminal begin? - My life of crime begins
when I'm 10 years old. 10 years old, man. Think about that. I mean, you were probably playing the robots when you were 10. You know, usually kids
are doing the Lego bit, getting involved with
sports, everything else. And with me, it wasn't like that. With me, I'm from Eastern Kentucky. Eastern Kentucky is one of
these, it's like parts of Texas, parts of Louisiana that if
you're not fortunate enough to have a job, you may be
involved in a scam, hustle, fraud, whatever you wanna call it. Man, my parents, my mom
was basically the captain of the entire fraud industry. So this is a (chuckles) woman that at one point, she's stealing
a 108,000 pound Caterpillar, D9 bulldozer, (chuckles)
tramming it down the road. You know, at another
point she's taking a slip and phone, a convenience
store, trying to sue the owner. We had a neighbor, she acted
as a pimp for at one point. That's my mom, my dad- - Wait, wait, the
neighbor acted as a pimp? - My mom prostituted. I mean, she acted as
a pimp for a neighbor. Her name was Debbie. And my
mom used to sell her out. You know, Debbie needed money,
and my mom would find men for her to sleep with for cash, and she'd take a part of the cash. - So, sounds like she
diversified the methodologies by which she hustled. - Very had that entrepreneurial
spirit. (laughs) - [Lex] Okay. - We see that a lot with cyber criminals, that sense of being that entrepreneur. - So what was the motivation,
you think, for her? Is it money? Is it basically the rush
of playing with the system, of being able to know the
rules and break the rules and get away with it? - My mom's a complex character. There's no one single motivation. So my mom was the individual.
She's still alive. My mom was the individual
who tested people. She wanted to know how
far she could abuse you, and you come back and still love her. So, and that was with every
relationship she's ever had, she would cheat on the
men she was involved with. She would abuse the her
children, me and Denise. She would-
- Psychological, physical? - Oh, it was mental, emotional,
physical, everything. Everything. I mean, she, she used
to beat me and Denise with belt buckles, you know, and that ended when (laughs)
I forgot what we had done. It wasn't much, I think that
it may have been the part where she accused me of
stealing her marijuana, but she was hitting me
and Denise, we were living in a single wide trailer at that point. She was hitting me and Denise. We were on the bed trying
to get away from it. And Denise kicks her through
a closet, is what happens. And Denise stands up and she said, "You're through hitting me." And that was the last time that mom hit us at that point. But- - So sorry to take us there. For people who know you, and people should definitely watch some of your lectures online,
you're extremely charismatic and fun and jolly and
whatever word you wanna use. But, you know, if we look at that kind of life, there's darkness there, there's struggle there. - [Brett] There's a lot of darkness. - So, how did you feel? If you go back to the
mind of the kid you were with your mom, was there sadness? Was there things like
depression, self-doubt, all those kinds of things? Or did you see this crime, this chaos as ultimately, exciting? - You know, back then, I
didn't view it as exciting. Now it becomes exciting
when I start being involved in cyber crime, cyber crime, all right? But back then, it was simply a means to an end was all it was. So, you take a 10-year-old kid, and the way I get involved in crime is, like I said, my mom was the fraudster. My my dad was a good guy. He just forgot he was this good guy. You know, he always had these principles. But his issue was is he
loved my mom so much. He was scared of her leaving. So if she wanted to do
something, commit crime, cheat on him, whatever, he
would pretty much just put up with it. I mean, this woman used to, she used to bring men home in front of him. Tell him that, "Hey, I'm leaving you. I don't love you anymore.
I want you to die." Blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah. This was my mom. There were two instances where
he can't take it anymore. And the first instance I
guess I was seven or eight. My sister Denise is a
year younger than I am. My dad actually files for
divorce, files for divorce at that point. My mom kind goes crazy.
My dad, I was with my dad. My sister was with my mother, because that's that
Eastern Kentucky mentality. You know, men stay with
men, women stay with women. So he was filing for divorce. Me and my dad, we were
living in an apartment. My mom was living with her grandparents and with her parents, bouncing back and forth between the two. And I remember I was sleeping in the bed. We had a single wide bed.
My dad slept on the sofa. I woke up one night and
there was some sort of ruckus in the living room. So I wake up and I walk
into the living room and my mom has a knife to my dad's throat. And basically, you're not
gonna steal my son from me. My mom was this individual
that when she knew she went so far, like I said, she
was always this person that tested, well, can I do this to you? And you'll still come back. She was always also this person that if she went too far, she knew it. And she would always try to
divert that into something else. All right? So she knew at
that point she'd went too far. So what does she do? She gets up crying, goes to the bathroom and
pretends to slit her wrists. So that my dad, Ray will
respond to that, not respond to what she's just done to him.
- Hmm. - That was my mom in a nutshell. And she had a history of
doing this kind of stuff. Motivations as far as fraud with her. I think with her it was, she was an LPN and a very good nurse, but she didn't want to
work was a lot of it. So with her, it was easier
for her to commit fraud. And when I say commit fraud,
it was against businesses, against people. I remember at one point, she's buying over the counter capsules
and emptying the capsules out and putting some other crap in there. And selling at a speed.
And people are buying it. She did anything she could for money. And of course I get involved with that. What happens is, we were in east, we were in Panama City at that point. And my mom leaves my dad and (chuckles) the way she left my dad, my great-grandfather had died. My mom tells all three of us, "Hey, I'm taking the
kids and we're going back to Eastern Kentucky to
attend the funeral." Well, that was her leaving.
Me and Denise didn't know it. She didn't pack any, any
of our clothes at all. She stores her clothes
in the trunk of the car. And she leaves my dad and I
don't get to see my dad again for I think five, six
years, something like that. My mom, like I said, she used to bring men home in front of my dad. She would, (chuckles)
he'd sit there and cry and beg her not to do it. She'd do it anyway. When
leaves them, she kept up that. So we were living at
my grandparents' house. My grandfather, he had
converted the house. He had raised the house up and built apartments underneath of it. So me and my sister and my mom lived in one of the apartments underneath. And that whole side of the
family was just nuts. Was nuts. My granddad Paul, he would,
(laughs) this is a man that he didn't want you
to eat any of his food. So, you know, there
was no such thing as me and Denise going upstairs to eat. If he found out, me and
Denise was taking a bath, we were allowed to bath and bathe in two inches
of water one time a week because he didn't wanna
have to pay the water bill. - [Lex] There's rules. - The rules, you know,
you couldn't have the TV on when he went to bed at night, you had to have the television, the
volume you could watch it, but without volume. Because if he heard it, he
would get up in the middle of the night and he would
kick the power breaker, turn off all the power on you. This the family, right? So my mom, she used to leave me and Denise at home for
days, man, for days. She'd go out and, you know, party and I mean, sometimes she'd
take me and Denise with her. We'd wait in the car, sometimes
we'd wait in the living room and she went and partied
and everything else. Most of the time she left us at home and my entry into crime. Denise walks in one day,
she's nine years old man. She walks in one day and she's got a pack of pork chops in her hand looked at her and I said, "Where'd you get that?" And she's like, I stole it." And you know, it's like,
"Show me how you did that." So she takes me over and she
shows me how she steals food, how she's stuffing it down her pants. So we start stealing food. I'm like, "Hell yeah, let's do that shit." So start stealing food and we get to the point where
we're wanting a sandwich. Well, you can't stuff a loaf
of bread down your pants. So there was a Kmart
in the shopping center. I go over to the Kmart,
get a hoodie off the rack, take the tags off of it,
wear it out, work just fine. And the way you steal
bread is you put the hoodie over your shoulder stuff a loaf of bread down the sleeve
and you walk out with it. So we started doing that. - [Brett] How'd you figure that out? - Just thought pattern. - So you said there's like
strategic thinking here? - You know, you can't wear the hoodie and put the bread down here 'cause you might mash the
bread when you zip it up or they might.
- Yeah. We have to think through that. - You gotta think through it.
- Okay. - But you gotta realize
by, by this point I'm, hell, I'm already seeing
what my parents are doing. You know, I'm already seeing. (laughs) - So plotting that kind of puzzle solving was something you already developing yourself individual-
- Oh yeah. - 'Cause you're pretty young. - Yeah. 10 years old, pretty young. But seeing how they act,
how they respond to things and my mom, I guess you'd
call it a good thing, they never kept any of that hidden from the kids.
- Yeah. - You know, there was no
discussions behind closed doors. All that happened in front of everybody. - And from your young mind's perspective, seeing that kind of
crime, you basically... You know, a lot of us
kind of grow up thinking there's rules you're
not supposed to break. If you see other humans
breaking those rules, then you realize those
rules are just human made. - But it gets worse than that. I was in an environment where
there were no decent people. I didn't really meet
my first decent person until I was 16 years old. - [Brett] Who's that? - That was a high school teacher. So what happens is, you know,
we start shoplifting food. My mom finds out that
we've been stealing stuff and you know, she joins us.
- What's that? - She joins us.
- She join (laughs) - Yeah, she comes in, you
know, I've got television, I've got the Atari 2600, play the hell out of it.
- Oh my God. - And she starts seeing this shit. She's like, "Where'd this come from?" And I'm like, "Well, we found it." She's like, "You didn't find that." Denise stands up, "We stole it." My mom, "Show me how you did that." And she gets her mom too, to join in. And she used to run me and Denise as these little shoplifters. We'd steal stuff for her, we
would distract security and her and my grandmother would steal stuff. They got caught doing that. But that's the entry into crime. And Denise, you know, I'm
adamant and I kind of mean it. (laughs) But the truth is, I say, and I do mean it that I'm responsible for my choices as an adult. Alright? I believe that when you're a child, you can't control that the adults in your environment control what you do.
- Yeah. - All right, once you're an adult though, your choices are yours. Now that being said, you can't dismiss that childhood influencing
what I did as an adult. You can't do that. I mean, it was kind of written on slate that, hey, this guy's gonna
be this guy when he grows up. - That said, like, sometimes
that one person you meet, that decent person can
turn the tides life. - Absolutely. Absolutely. So what happens is the abuse,
everything continues on. When I'm 15, my dad was
in Panama City, Florida. We were in Hazard, Kentucky.
She was dating this guy. She and my mom was this guy, this woman that the abuse would,
it was crazy abuse man, just crazy stuff. She would tell me and my sister, you know, that she gave up her life for us. That she was gonna leave
one day and never come back. That we'd find her dead
in a ditch someplace. She'd go out and date these
men and she'd come back and she'd talk about how
these men were abusing her. You know? So she'd be dating this
guy and she'd come back and she'd start talking
about how he had tried to rape her, you know, trying
to get me to respond to that. And I would respond to
that, make no doubt. I would respond to that. Well, what happens is, and
I knew that, I don't know if I knew it was abuse
at that age, alright. But I knew things were
fucked up. (chuckles) And I was talking to
my dad in Panama City, and I really had it in my
head that I was gonna go down and live with my dad. And I called my dad one day, I was set to go to me and
my cousins were gonna go see a, "Return of the Jedi",
that had came out again in theaters. So I called my dad it a
Sunday, called my dad. And he told me he had
either gotten married or he was about to get
married to this woman. And basically, Brett
Johnson wasn't gonna go down to Florida. I was gonna stay in Hazard. I had to call my dad from payphone. But the result of that was I walked into a hospital, got in an elevator, and a woman got in an
elevator at the same time, and I snapped and beat the hell out of her right there and I was 15. Didn't really know what the fuck happened. Didn't really know, but just- - Anger came from someone. - Yeah, yeah. And you know, the elevator
beat the hell outta this lady. Turned out she looked
a shitload like my mom. But the elevator door was open. One of the security guards I
played basketball with his son. So he saw me immediately. I knocked the hell outta him,
took off running, made it back to the house where my grandparents were. They didn't know what had happened. So I didn't say anything. About an hour later, Kentucky
State Police, they pull up in the front yard and two of 'em get out, and I'm sitting on the front porch and me and my cousins and they start walking up. Well, everybody starts
walking outta the house. And I just remember
saying, what do you want? What do you want? Well,
you knew what they wanted. They wanted to arrest Brett
Johnson and they arrested me. I went in and I told 'em everything. Spent three months in a county jail. They didn't have juvenile
facilities in that county. So I spent three months in solitary, went to trial, pled guilty to
assault in the first degree. The judge sentenced me to time served and a psychological
evaluation where they sent me to Louisville, Kentucky
and spent 30 days up there. And they cut me loose. They wanted me to have
counseling after that. And they went to counseling,
you know, wanted to, but mom was like, don't need it. And (chuckles) so never
went to counseling. And I became this pariah in
the county, it's crazy, man. I mean, not a day goes by
that, I don't think about that- - [Lex] That moment in the elevator. - Yeah and what happens
you're 15, man, you're 15. So I go back to the high
school that I was in, and I'm this piece of shit. - So everybody knows the outcast? - Everybody knows, everybody knows. So I move, we moved. We were
in Iceberg we at that point. I finish up the year
there and moved to back to Perry County which is where Hazard is. So we moved there and they've
got three high schools there. They've got M.C. Napier,
they've got Hazard High School, and then they've got
Di Combes High School. So I was within Med Denise,
were within half mile of M.C. Napier show up there
the first day of school. And I met me and my mom
and my sister were walking into the school and the
kids won't let me in. The kids stand out there,
he's not coming in. So my mom starts raising hell and I'm like, "No, let's
just go, let's go." So from there, we went down
to the city school Hazard and the principal tells my mom, "Denise can come, he can't." So my mom wants to raise hell. And I'm like, "No, just take me to this other school." So this other school is like 15 miles away and you know, country
school, country high school. So I go there and they accept me. And I walked in the first day, and this English teacher
name's Carol Combs. I walked in and handed her the paper. I, she was my homeroom teacher. And she heard this voice is
the way she explains it today. She heard this voice and
(laughs) she looks up and she was like, "Son, have you ever
done any drama before?" (both laughing) And I'm like, "No ma'am, but I'm interested in the academic team." I was this quick recall guy, right? And she was like, "No,
she's like drama." (laughs) And I'm like, "No, I'm
not interested in theater. I'm interested in academics." Well, she was the head
of the drama department and head of the academics department. So the deal was, tell
you what, you can get on the academics team if
you start with theater too. And I was like, "Okay." So what happens is, she was
the first decent person I met in my life. And she became this kind
of surrogate mother to me. So under her tutelage, I become the one of the top academic team guys
in the state around there. I was captain of the team. I was, this just scourge
across all the counties in that part of Kentucky. If, you know, we had a meet. It was like Jesus Christ,
that's Brett Johnson. (laughs) And you know, it was like, she used to tell people
they would, the high school that I came from was Weisberg. And the first time that
Weisberg came against us, she told me I was talking
to her about a year ago and she told me, she's like, "Brett." She said, "that first
meet against Weisberg." She said, "the captain
came in, looked at you and said, 'oh, you've got that
Johnson boy on your team.'" And she said, my response was, "That
Johnson boy is our team." (both laughing) So, but I did that. And then with theater, I
ended up, my senior year, I won best actor and actress in the state. Only God ever do that in the
state. So did pretty well, man. Did pretty well. Had scholarships coming out of high school and everything else. And I'm the idiot that turned them down. - Ask you a funny question? - Yeah. - I mean, of all the many
things you could probably do, you would make a hell of a actor. - I'm very good on stage.
I'm very good on stage. - Have you acted
professionally anywhere or not? - Not, not professionally. We've done the college
circuit, stuff like that. What happened was, is, so I turned down the
scholarships, you know, scared of leaving, I guess is what it was. Started community college. And the community college there hires a new theater director out of California. Well, he knew the guy that ran the San Jose
State Theater program. A guy named Edward Emanuel was
his name. His claim to fame. He had written the three
ninjas movie. Remember that? The three little ninja
kids back in the '80s? He had written this film and it had made a shit load of money. So he invites Ed Emanuel to
come down and see the play. And Ed had written this civil war piece. So we put that on, I was doing like, it was a multiple role thing. I was doing like 18
different roles in the show. So Ed sees the show and he
was like, "Scholarship." He said, "look." He said, "Right now you're
a big fish in a small pot. We'll make you a big fish in a big pot." And I was like, "Deal." So I took the scholarship man. And he was like, "I'll
be back in two weeks." So he flies out. Two weeks
later, this guy flies back in. He drives down to where I'm living. I'm out shooting ball with
my cousins and friends. He pulls up and he gets outta the car. And I was like, I'm walk over to him. I was like, "Hey man, I'll walk in.
You can meet my parents." He's like, "No, I got
it." I was like, "Okay." So I keep shooting ball. He walks in the house,
stays about 15 minutes, walks out white as a sheet. Doesn't say a word to me,
gets in the car, leaves. I don't hear from him again.
Had no idea what went on. Takes me a couple weeks. What happened is my mom, he walks in, introduces himself, my mom
pulls a knife on the guy. "I will kill you. You are not gonna steal
my goddam son from me." Scares the guy to death. He bugs out and kind of broke
my spirit at that point. I was like, okay. So went into just full fledged into scams, crimes, everything else. I had already been, when I was a minor, I'd already been kind of
brought up on that side of the family with the
crimes that they were doing. And my mom was, you know, drug
trafficking, the pimp stuff, illegally mining coal, charity fraud.
- Illegally mining coal. - Yeah. - Can you explain that? - Yeah, so to to properly mine coal, you have to get a permit, all right? Eastern Kentucky, a lot of people, they can't afford the permits. You know, they can get
'em a piece of equipment, you know, you get a dozer, a loader or whatever you're gonna get
or an auger or what have you. So you start mining, but
you don't get the permit. So you don't have to pay
back, then it was like $3,500 for a two acre permit or
$5,000 for a two acre permit. Let you strip mine the coal on that. Then you have to pay for the
reclamation on top of that. So once you uncover the pit,
take the coal out, you have to cover back up the pit sew
grass, make sure everything is environmentally friendly. You got a silt pond,
everything else at that point. - So the whole idea is
you buy an acre of land or some area of land and there's a whole
process you're supposed to go through.
- Entire process. - How many people are
involved in a mining? The smallest number of people required for a mining operation? - You can do it with three or four people.
- Okay. - So you've got your loader operator, you've got your dozer operator, you can farm out the trucking
to someone if you need an or trucking company,
if you need to do that. Then you've got whoever
owns the business as well. So very few people can
run an operation like that and profit fairly well
as long as you don't have to do the reclamation, all
that crap on top of it, right? The reclamation gets pretty expensive. So if you're uncovering a
pit of coal, you know, a pit. So a ton of coal is basically
about 36 cubic inches is what 2000 pounds of coal weighs if you're in Eastern Kentucky. 'Cause it's at the weight of the by two minutes coal and everything. - The fact that, you
know, this is awesome. (Brett laughs) The fact that you know exactly
the volume of a ton of coal. I mean, this is great.
- Yeah. (Brett laughs) You learn this shit. You rattle this off. So you uncover the pit and
you've gotta sell the pit. Well the thing is that where are you gonna sell the coal? Well, you sell it to one
of these other coal tipples that knows that they're
buying the shit illegally. So back then a ton of coal was, that'd give you like 36 bucks
per ton is what that is. And you'd have to go out and
you'd test the BTUs on it. You'd take a sample to the lab test the BTUs, you'd take that into company.
- BTU? - What's British Thermal Unit. So you'd test what the BTU on the coal was.
- How pure the coal is. - How pure the coal is. What
BTU it burns at back then. A good BTU was around
12.9 was what you'd get. Alright? So 12.9 coal, $36 a ton. You'd take that sample
over to the coal tipple. They'd say, "Okay, we'll buy this for you. How many trucks you got
or how many tons you got?" And you'd say, "This is what we've got." Then you'd hire the trucking company and where you get it out because you know, you've got
the agents that are looking for you by this point because the people that you
know, you've bought the rights to whoever the landowner is. You said you're gonna give them $2 a ton or whatever this is. Well, there are other people there. Are you paying them off or are you not? Well, if you're not paying
them off, guess what? They know your ass is mining it illegally. They're gonna report you. Well, all of a sudden you've
got all these inspectors that are coming around and everything and "Hey, we know what you're doing." So they're looking for
you to get the pit out. So when do you get the pit
out? Right dead of night. (laughs) So, you know, you're
loading it up two o'clock in the morning, hauling this
ass out, is what you're doing. And you sell it out from there. - And your mom ran operations like this? - [Brett] Yeah. Yeah. - And you said you worked the mine too. - Yeah. When you were younger,
learned how to run a loader, run a dozer, learned how to
clean off a pit, (laughs) everything like that fact. So this is the lifestyle you grow up in. You know, you learn how to do this stuff. And so knew how to do
charity fraud as well. Insurance fraud.
- Charity fraud. Can we break down some of these are? - Charity fraud, it's much more romantic than what it sounds. (both laughing) It was basically, it was
basically standing beside the road with a sign and a bucket.
- Yeah. - Taking up collections
for homeless shelters for abused women for
children, stuff like that. Then later on I branched
off, when I started off on my own, I would set
up my own charity company and do some telemarketing. Go on buy and collect
checks and things like that. - You know, we're gonna talk about that. But actually, can we just step back and talk about your mom?
- Sure. - And your dad. Given all of that, given all
the abuse, the complex ways that she played with love.
- Right. - To see how far she can push
you and the people around her. And they still love her
today. Do you love her? - You know, I called my dad yesterday. My dad, he's dying now.
He's got a heart condition. He's not gonna get the
operation to fix it. So he is like, "Fuck it, I'm ready to go." And I'm like, I looked at him. 'Cause hell, I'm 52 now, and prior to 52, I'd have been like, no,
you need to do this. But I looked at him and I was like, "I understand, I
understand you're done." And so he is not gonna get the operation. I was talking to him yesterday and he asked me, he is like,
"Have you seen your mom?" And I was like, "Dad, I've not talked to
her for about two years." And I told him, I was
like, "I love my mom, but my mom is not a
good person, she's not." And he told me, I was talking
to him on the phone yesterday and he told me that it
took him several years to really understand that. He loved her too. But when you're getting abused
like that, especially my dad. My dad came from a good
family, everything else and, you know, upstanding family. And (chuckles) I think that
when you're that victim of abuse, you know, you've
never seen it before. You've never encountered it. And then it happens where
you're like, that frog in water all of a sudden. You get to the point
where gradually increases until how do you get out of it? Everybody else sees what's
happening. But you don't. I grew up in that environment though. So it took me a long time
to come to terms with that. My sister came to terms
with it long before I did. You know, my sister, she's been a decade without talking to my mom. Like she had tried to commit
suicide. I didn't know that. What got me so bad is
she said at one point that she always thought
someone was gonna come in and save us. And my response, just immediate response, not even thinking about it. My response was, "Well, Denise,
I knew no one ever was." And looking at things now, I think that's where our path's diverged. Me it was, if you're gonna do it, if anybody's gonna take care of you, you gotta take care of yourself. - [Lex] You're on your own. - You're on your own.
You know, it's up to you. And Denise has always been that that child that has expected someone
to come in and save her. - Well and almost like
it's all going to be okay. Somebody-
- Yeah. - And it wasn't.
- No. - Unless you-
- Unless you make it okay, it ain't gonna be okay. - Are you able to forgive her, your mom? My boundary with my mom,
the reason I've not spoken with her over two years ago, I started this legal career of mine. I've been the guy who
has, I spent a lot of time thinking about my past and those choices and what brought those choices around. So I'm big about taking
responsibility for my actions. I truly am. I think it's really important
you have to do that. Well, my mom, not so much. So I was talking to her,
you know, she would start the conversation talking about she didn't understand why Denise
wouldn't speak to her anymore. That was one of her tropes. So, and my response started to become, "Well because you were the abuser and you spent your life doing that to her. So it's more healthy for
her not to talk to you." - So she's still not able to see the flaws in her ways of the past? - No, not at all. So my ultimatum to my mom
was, "Look, when you're able to admit that you abuse the
people in your life, accept that responsibility and be
able to discuss it with me. We'll have a talk other than that, I don't wanna talk to you anymore." So for the first year it
was, you know, calling, cussing my wife out, cussing me out. I don't need you out, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah. And then finally it started to taper off. And she's never really
contacted me after that point. - Your dad is dying.
- Yeah. - What do you take from the
way he's taken on death? Just saying, fuck it. - [Brett] You know, it's the man- - And what have you learned from your dad? What do you love about your dad? - He's one of these guys that,
you know, like I told him, I told my dad about the
abuse and everything else, so, you know, I told you
about the elevator stuff. - [Lex] Yeah. - But before that, man,
it took me 40 years to talk about that. But it also took me 40
years to talk about... There was a point that my mom
and dad would leave the house and I would urinate in the floor. All right? - Is like, out of anger? - No, no idea why, alright. But
I would, piss on the carpet. Piss on the carpet, piss
like the little baski, right? (both laughing) That really tied the room together. - Dude, it really tied the room together. - I was talking about that. And this lady comes up to
me after the presentation and she had a career previous
to that where she dealt with abused kids. And she told me, she's like, "Brett." she's like, "it's a control mechanism. The only control you had was that." And she's like, "kids do that." And I was like, "So I'm not unique?" She's like, "No, you're
not unique in that." So that, you know, there
this whole history of abuse. Denise dealt with it
by drinking, by trying to commit suicide, things like that. And then finally she escapes,
I'm the kid that didn't. And not only that, my wife
pointed out to me that it's, again, it's that Eastern
Kentucky mentality stuff. You know, the males expected to do things. So with, with me it was
almost like I stepped up to take part in those crimes so that Denise didn't have to. And she was able to avoid all that. Other than that one shoplifting stuff. Denise doesn't break the law anymore. She goes off to be a, she's a good parent. She's an angry parent. She's a
good parent, she's a teacher. Good citizen overall. I was just the guy that
kept right on going with it. - Kept on going. So let
me ask you about that. So your life of cyber crime. (Brett laughs) In describing some of the things you did or knew about you said quote, "I once stole several
thousand dollars worth of coins from a family trying to sell them to put a new roof on their home. Another time I sent a
counterfeit cashier's check to a victim and he ended
up being arrested for it. I lied to family,
friends, everyone I knew. I was a truly despicable person." - [Brett] True. - One of my Ukrainian
associates Script had someone who owed him money,
kidnapped and tortured. He posted pictures of it online. Another member, Iceman, used to flood his enemies email
addresses with child pornography, then called the police on them." That's some stories. Can you tell some of these
stories that stand out to you that are particularly
despicable or representative or interesting?
- Sure. - When you look back at
that defined your approach and who you were at that time? - Let me say that I did
not care about my victim. All right? I cared about
me is what I cared about. It's rough to admit that you know, that you don't give a
shit what you're doing to anybody else, you only care about you. But that's the truth of the matter. I didn't care about the victims. The lady that that wasn't
even at the beginning of my career as a cyber criminal. That was right at the last of it.
- Which lady? - The coin lady. I was by that point ShadowCrew
had made the front cover of Forbes August of
'04, October 26th of '04 Secret Service had to shut us down. 33 people arrested six
countries in six hours. I was the guy that was publicly
mentioned as getting away. What happened was, is I
was the guy, I had kind of invented this crime called
tax return identity theft, and was stealing a lot of money. I went through all my stateside savings and ShadowCrew gets shut down. I don't have any way to
come in with any money. So I start running
counterfeit cashier's checks. Defrauding people with that,
having them send products or bull and collections, what have you by COD collect on delivery. And I would pay with it with
a counterfeit cashier's check. This lady was on eBay. She had been collecting these
silver coins all of her life. The US currency used to be
the coins used to be silver. So she had a whole
collection of these things like, I don't know, 80,
90 pounds of this stuff. And I'm a very good social engineer. So convinced her that I
was a legitimate person that send it to COD, you
can use my FedEx account to do that or my UPS account to do that. I'll pay with a cashier's
check. You can take it in. Same as cash. She believed that she was even on the ad and we talked on the
phone and everything else. She had told me that
she was a single parent and it was the only money that she had to put a roof on the house
for her and her kids. And I didn't give a damn,
I didn't give a damn. What was more important
was me at that point. - Can I ask you a question
about the social engineering? So maybe specifics like
the methodology email, you said phone. Maybe you could discuss this process from a bigger philosophical perspective of what is it about human
beings that makes impossible to be social engineered,
to be victims of fraud? - So first lemme say that, that I became a social
engineer as a child. Alright? Because the adults
(chuckles) in my environment as a child, I had to know
exactly what they were thinking and be able to try to
manipulate that for survival. So I became a social engineer
for survival, initially. All right? And one of the things
that I've seen with a lot of cyber criminals is
the exact same thing. The really expert ones. They become a social engineer as a child. Then later on they use those tools to victimize others. Alright? - Which is fascinating because in order to understand what others
are thinking, you have to be extremely good at empathy. So you have to like really
put yourself in the shoes of the other person.
- Absolutely. - And yet in order to
do cyber crime, you have to not care about the pain that might cause them
once you manipulate them. So you have to empathize and yet not care. - Exactly. And I would argue, I would argue that that is not a sociopath because a cyber criminal
and I was no different. Most cyber criminals
justify those actions. So the justification
becomes what's important. With me the justification
was, well I did it for my family, did it
for my wife, did it for my stripper girlfriend.
- Yeah. - So, and I believe those-
- That's good story. I heard that one that 'cause I care about love a lot.
- Yeah. So the big picture of that is trust. How do you establish trust
with a potential victim? Alright? Now I would argue online that that trust is established
through a combination of technology tools, social engineering.
- Yeah. - Alright. So we trust our tech. You know, we trust our cell
phones, we trust our laptops. A lot of times we don't
understand how they operate, but we trust the news that
comes across the line. We trust the phone numbers that show up. We trust IP addresses. If we're advanced enough
to look at an IP address where a domain or anything else like that. Criminals use tools to manipulate
that spoof phone numbers, spoof browser, fingerprints,
whatever that may be, whatever the tool may be, then that lays a base level of trust. At that point you shoot in
with a social engineering and lay whatever story that is. In order to manipulate that
victim to act not out of reason but out of emotion, all of a sudden. - This is fascinating about
the way humans interact with the world, which is
you're almost too afraid to not trust the world. You have to find a balance.
- Right? - You have a lot of sort of conspiracy theories now
about distrusting institutions and thinking like everything around us. It's like I've been listening to people who believe the earth is flat. And you know, that conspiracy
theory is fascinating to me because it basically says that you can't trust anybody.
- Right? - That like everything you hear is a lie. So you can live that life
or you can live a life where you're just naively
trusting everything. 'Cause that life is kind
of full of happiness if nobody screws you over.
- Right? - Because you, you know, you meet people with the joyful heart and you get excited and all that kind of stuff. But if you do that too much,
you're gonna get burned. So you have to find some
kind of balance in terms of optimizing happiness where
you trust, I mean, but verify. And on the internet that
may becomes really tricky. You're almost too afraid
to distrust everything 'cause you'll never get anything done. on the internet.
- Right. - But then if you trust too
much, you can get screwed over. And so the social engineering
comes in where you're like, yeah, I'm not sure
if I should trust this. You kind of help them
build the narrative was like, it's good, it's good. - So, and a lot of the times that social engineering is just feeding into what the victim wants to believe.
- Yeah. - All right? It's not really coming up
with a brand new story at all. It's just knowing what the motivations of that victim is feeding
into it at that point. So you have to again,
that social engineer has to almost immediately know what's driving that person that they're talking about. So if I'm working on a phone, talking to someone over the phone, I have to know within seconds what I need
to say, how I need to act to interact with that
customer service agent or whoever I'm talking to on
the other end of the line. - So fascinating because
you truly are empathizing with the other person.
- Absolutely. - What is it? This businessman Steven
Schwartzman I've talked to a few times. He mentioned this thing that, the way you build deep relationships is you really kind of notice the things that people are telling you. Like, like what what they want
and what they're bothered by. What are their big
problems in their lives. 'Cause everybody's
saying that all the time and most of us are just ignoring it. - Right, but if you take the time to listen.
- Yeah. - You know, somebody at that point. - Yeah. - Absolutely you do. Then you have to be able
to dismiss it. (laughs) - [Lex] Dismiss it after. - You're looking for that just
to see how I can manipulate that is what you're trying to do. So that the lady was one story. The another truly despicable story. We'll get to Script in a second.
- Yeah. - But another truly
despicable story we were one of the really first groups
that started phishing attacks. - [Lex] What's phishing? - So that is a social engineering attack.
- PH by the way. - Yeah, PH that's another
social engineering attack that's sending that fake
email out that looks like it's coming from a website or your financial organization or whatever and saying, Hey, we've
got a security problem. We need you to update
your account information. Well back then, no one had
ever seen a phishing attack. So you could ask for all the
information you were getting just complete identity
profiles on a phishing email. Nowadays you can't do that. Nowadays you look for
basically credentials because everyone is aware of phishing. But back then it was complete information. We had phished out, I don't know, 200,000 E-Trade accounts is what we had. The login credentials for the-
- Login password, yeah. - Login password complete, you
know, social date of birth, mother's maiden account
information, everything else. So we had access to
those E-Trade accounts. E-Trade initially had
no security in place. So you could cash out the
account ACH the money out to whoever to whatever account you wanted to went through just fine. Ate 'em alive on that
for four to six months. E-Trade got to the point where you couldn't do any ACH coming out. You know, they locked everything down. Well you're still sitting on
thousands of E-Trade accounts. How do you make money on that? - Hmm, that's a good question. - Yeah, so what you do
is you find some fat cat that's got his retirement, you
know, invested in blue chips. Same time you find a penny stock, you open up a brand new account,
buy into that penny stock, cash the fat cat out, buy
into that same penny stock pump a dump schemes all of a sudden.
- Wow. - So you're destroying
people's retirement accounts for just a few thousand dollars. Bam, bam, bam.
- Wow. - And of course E-Trade
response is not our problem. It's your problem, you shouldn't
have give up your password or what have you at that point. And you still see that
issue today with Zelle scams and things like that. - Which scam? - [Brett] Zelle. So, you know,
the instant payment that- - Oh, so it's the same kind of operations with different payment mechanisms. - You find an easy way
to exploit a system. And typically, the financial
organization not our problem. Our system's secure. It's the
humans, it's their errors. Well, not really. You've got some culpability in that and you're just trying
to avoid paying the part of the bill is what's going on. - One of the things just to stand phishing for a bit is it really makes me sad 'cause there's been people
on all kinds of platforms, like including YouTube
comments, but emails too. They figured out emails somehow. So people are now seeing the followers of this particular podcast or fans, they're finding them on platforms
like LinkedIn and YouTube and so on, and they are
figuring out ways to get to those people by another channel.
- Right? Which I suppose seems more authentic to those people.
- Right. - So they send them an email
from what looks like me and with this like loving me. The interesting thing, the emails sound like something I would write. At this stage, it doesn't feel automated or if it's automated,
there's a human in the loop that's really fine tuning, to specific or maybe I'm very predictable, but it's very loving in the
way I would write a message. (laughs) - And so think about that. All right. So when phishing first comes out, you could look at the language
of the text or the website and say, eh, if you were
paying attention that that's so, okay, so that's not an English speaker
who wrote that typically. Alright. But as time has went on as the awareness of what a phishing attack
looks like, we have people that are sitting down now and making sure that the language is proper. It gets worse than that though. If you look at business email compromise. Alright, so the way a business
email compromise typically works is the attacker will
find a payroll person, find a CEO, he will fashion
a spear phishing email, which is, that's a phishing attack that's targeting one
specific individual, alright? So he'll fashion a spear phishing email. And the way he does that is
he pulls all the information he possibly can on that
person or that CEO. Maybe he'll spear that CEO just to get their login credentials to their email just to read the emails. And he'll go in there and he'll start reading all these emails. He'll specifically read the emails to the payroll department,
see what that relationship is. Are they talking about
their kids, talking about relationships, talking about vacation? What are they talking
about? How are they talking? Are they friendly? Are they
sterile? What are they doing? Alright, so then he decides,
well I'm gonna go ahead and spear phish this,
the payroll department as well.
- This is good. - So then he spear phishes
them, gets those credentials. At the same time he
creates a Unicode domain in whatever the company name is. All right? So instead of that English
alphabet, I, he's got that Russian letter that looks like an I but without the dot on top.
- Yeah. - All right, comes back into the email, into the payroll email blocks
the real CEO's email, replaces that with the unicode email that he's got. And then sends out a message
using the correct language, the correct relationships,
everything else, and says Hey, you know, we're
updating our account status. I need you to send this payment instead of the over here, they've
set up a new account, send all payments over here now. And that is business emo
compromise in a nutshell. Alright? Works great. - Probably the larger
organization, the more susceptible to that kind of attack. 'Cause there's a like a
distribution responsibility to where you're more likely to believe that okay, this other
person is responsible. I'm sure they secured everything.
- Absolutely. - I'm okay listening to this.
- All right. So that's business email
compromise and it those crimes. And that's one of the things
you see about cyber crime. Cyber crime is not really sophisticated. It's not, the attacks
are not sophisticated. The stat is 90% of every single
attack uses a known exploit. It's not zero day attacks.
- Yeah. - They're out there. But if you're a criminal
waiting on a zero day to profit, you're gonna starve to death. The meat and potatoes are
at 90% known exploits. - Well you're saying it's
maybe, you mean it's not technically sophisticated.
- Right. - But it's social
engineering sophisticated. - [Brett] Very sophisticated on that end. Very sophisticated. - I mean it's a fascinating
study of human psychology. - That establishment of trust and then using that trust
to defraud that victim, that is something. - Obviously all of these folks
are really good at hiding. I wish you could tell their stories in a way, which is why you're
fascinating is you're able to tell these stories now, 'cause it is studying human
nature by exploiting it. But you get to understand like
our weak points, our hope, our desire to trust others
also sort of the weak points and the failures of digital systems and at scale humans have to connect.
- Right. - It's fascinating. This is a weird question
asking for a friend (chuckles) is spear phishing itself illegal? What's the legality here? - Oh, it's all illegal. Absolutely, it is. - Absolutely. So here's what, okay, let me,
lemme construct an example. So if my friend were to spear
phish like a CEO, right? And get their information. And after they get control,
say of their Twitter account, they tweet something loving
and positive, what's the crime? - [Brett] Unauthorized access, I'd advice. - What would be the
punishment, do you think? - That becomes questionable. So no monetary loss or
was there a monetary loss? - [Lex] Probably not. - All right, so you have to
figure out who the victim is before charges are pressed. Now the crime would be
unauthorized access. All right? But no real victim on that unless, you know, the person
whose account you took over takes, you know, exception to that. No monetary loss. - But there's not really
standard like fines. - [Brett] Probably nothing's gonna happen. - Right, right, right. So, I mean, that's kind of interesting. 'Cause it's, (chuckles) so
when I got the ransomware, when I got the zero day
attack on the QNAP, you know, they basically say the
criminal is QNAP the company for having so many
security vulnerabilities. You are the victim of QNAPs incompetence. That's the way they kind of phrase it. - I don't agree with that. I don't agree with that at all. So, SolarWinds. (both laughing) - [Lex] Yeah. So I've got 130 page class
action lawsuit printed out at the house. I've been going through it, that catalogs how SolarWinds lied for years about their vulnerabilities, and they lied to investors. The people who came out, the
auditors who they would hire would, you know, they would
not pay attention to them when they said, you know,
you've got these issues. They would say, go away,
shit like that for years until SolarWinds, you know,
the attacks become apparent. My view on that is that
the only person responsible for the crime are the
criminals who did the attacking the actual criminals. Not, not SolarWinds. Now does that mean the
SolarWinds isn't fucked up? They are, and there needs to
be some accounting (laughs) in place, but the only individual, the only people responsible
for crime are the criminals. And that's either online, in the physical world, what have you. Being an idiot is not a crime.
- A crime. (both laughing) - Being criminally negligent is. - [Lex] Yeah. - And I think that SolarWinds
is certainly responsible. Not responsible, they're
culpable for what happened. - Can you actually tell
folks about SolarWinds? What are some interesting
things that you're aware of? - Yeah, SolarWinds was very... It provided a backbone of security for hundreds, thousands
of different companies. If you looked at a lot of security companies
were using SolarWinds that would allow you to get a snapshot of the entire system that
they were working on. So what happens is you get a
Russian group that comes in and they basically, they
hack into SolarWinds and they get access to it. And it allows them to
view every single thing. I mean, every single thing
about every single client that SolarWinds had at that point. So, entire snapshots of all
the IP that was going on, all the emails, all the
communications, every single secret that was going on with those companies, if a company had software like
Microsoft, it allowed them to look at the source code of
everything that was going on. I mean, it was just a complete
and total nightmare. Alright? And something that you are
not going to recover from. You're not, I mean,
it's done at that point. You know, there's not been a
lot of news lately about it, but the fact of the matter is,
is that's the type of attack, that's a catastrophic attack. - So there's a huge amount of information that was read saved elsewhere, probably.
- Oh, yeah. - And so now there's people
sitting on information. - Absolutely. So think about one of the
attack vectors has been Microsoft Outlook 365, things like that. This allowed the attackers to look at the source codes of that. So they have the source code now. So they go through it line by line, what are the vulnerabilities? Let's find new
vulnerabilities, new zero days. You know, I said zero days aren't common, but this opens up an entire new threat surface all of a sudden. So it's a completely catastrophic attack. Once all the chips are down,
everything's tallied up, people are gonna be like, yeah, we're done.
- Yeah. (laughs) All right, this whole
computer thing, we're tried it and we're walking away.
- We're done. (laughs) So that's terrifying
because, so you're saying that there's not been obvious
big negative impact from that yet, so, but like. - I mean, there's been a
lot of negative impact, but we're just starting, - Right?
- We're staring. - So the capacity for
destruction is huge here. How much involvement from nation states do you
think there is on this? - You know, it's interesting. So you've got Iran, you've
got North Korea, China, Russia, you got the big four, you also got Brazil.
- Yeah. - You've got all these other countries that are interested in
the United States as well. Nation states are interesting depending on who the nation state is. Alright, so Russia's
very good about working with the type of criminal
that I used to be. You know, they'll enlist these guys and steal information or what have you. Then Russia will take the
information they want to, and they'll basically go off and sell whatever you want
to and make some money. China's all about IP, North
Korea's about stealing money because they really don't know what the hell else to do right now. - So North Korea is actively
involved in cyber crime? - Absolutely. They've stolen a shit load
of Bitcoin, everything else. So absolutely they're
actively involved with that. Very, very skilled
attackers. Very skilled. But even if you look at, I
told you that stat about 90%. Alright, so even though SolarWinds is gonna be the number one
attack, the follow up to that is this not petty
attack that happened. And so that was the most
sophisticated attack launched by the Russian Sand Worm group using all known exploits throughout. So again, it's not, you're right. And the sophistication is typically not technical sophistication, but it's that social
engineering sophistication. How do you get these things put together in line to attack and succeed? - But when you get access
to the source code, that's where technical
sophistication could really do a lot of damage. Oh yeah. And that's when you find out real quick, that's what separates the men
from the boys in this game. Alright? Because all of a sudden
it's not, I don't have to worry about social
engineering, I've got source codes and I've got professionals
that are looking at that. And that's your ass. - Which then enables probably even more powerful social
engineering methods too. I mean, it's just right cascade of, is this terrifying to you by the way? This, that this world that
we're living in, as we put more and more of ourselves on the
internet into the metaverse, that there is so many more
attack vectors on our wellbeing. - What's terrifying to me, I used to preach it on ShadowCrew, is the idea that the perception of
truth is more important than the truth itself. It doesn't matter what the facts are, it matters what I can convince you of. - [Lex] Yeah. - That's what's terrifying to me. So you look at deep fakes, you look at fake news, all this stuff that's going out that
becomes truly terrifying. - Maybe there's an
angle where it's freeing if nothing is true and
you can't trust anything. (Brett laughs) - But you see, we as human
beings, we want to trust. We do, we need human interaction. And for that human interaction, you have to have a degree of trust. - But it's more like you let
go of an idea of absolute truth and it more becomes like a
blockchain style consensus. So you let go of like, you know what? There's this human dream. You know, you get this on the
internet, you get like facts as if there's at the
bottom, there's one turtle that's holding this like scroll that says, these are
the truths of the world. The problem is, I mean, maybe believing that is counterproductive,
maybe human civilization is an ongoing process of consensus. And so it's always going to
be, everything is shrouded and you can call them lies or
you can call them inaccuracies or you can call them delusions. It's constantly going to be, it's going to be a sea of lies and delusions. But our hope is to over
time, develop bigger and bigger islands of
consensus that allows us to live a stable and happy society. Don't call it true, call
it a stable consensus that creates a high quality of life for the habitants of the island. (Brett laughs) - I like it. I mean, I like it. I mean, that's where we're
going to agree on this. - And then don't use Outlook.
No, I'm just kidding. So maybe a step back,
you mentioned I'd love to talk about ShadowCrew. Maybe this is the right
time to actually... - Yeah, let's go to ShadowCrew. It's such a fascinating story. So tell me the story of building
ShadowCrew the precursor to today's darknet and darknet markets. You're, this is why you're
the original Godfather. - This is it. - [Lex] This is it. - So I get married. I faked a car accident to get married. Got the money from that. - [Lex] You're romantic. - I'm romantic like my dad, man. I'm the guy that, you know, I get from mom, I get the criminal mindset. From dad. I get that.
Don't want him to leave. (laughs) - So you get married. - [Brett] I met this girl. - What's that story? - [Brett] Oh dude, I was- - How did you fall in love there? My first girlfriend was
a preacher's daughter and crazy over her. Dated her for five years. And she figured out pretty quickly that, well, not quickly,
it took her five years to figure out that Brett
Johnson is not the man of God. (laughs) I could talk it, but more
that agnostic than anything. She breaks up with me. So I
was at the community college. - You'd make one hell
of a preacher by the- - [Brett] Thanks. (both laughing) Yeah. - So I've got that
Langston Hughes problem, I'm looking for Jesus to
show up and he just doesn't. (both laughing) So I was at the community college and I was a straight asshole. I was arrogant, conceited everything else. And I had posted an advertisement on one of the billboards looking
for an adult babysitter, hot blonde, you know, come
visit me in the library. Buddy of mine shows up
and he is like, "Brett." And I was like, "Yeah." He's like, "The hottest girl
in school right down the hall." And I was like, "Serious?"
He's like, "Yeah". And I was like, "Let's go see." (laughs) Walk over and there's these two guys that are hitting on her. So I just walk up and me
and Todd, that was my buddy, walk up and I'm just
sitting there and listening and they're, you know,
they're giving the spiel and everything and she's
just kind of taking it in. Finally I looked over and I was like, "You wanna get outta here?" And one of the guys looks
at (laughs) me, he's like, "Hey, we're talking to her." And I was like, "Well,
you're talking at her. You're not talking to her. I'm about to save her ass from you." - [Lex] Yeah. This is a smooth
pickup line, by the way. If I ever hear one, that's good. You wanna get outta here? - So start dating and she was the girl that screwed my brains out man. And I fell, I head over hills. We got married six
months later. Six months. - [Lex] That's what love does. - That's what it does. And she didn't know I was a crook. She had no idea. You know,
she knew I was very bright. She knew I did a lot of
theater stuff like that. Got a job at, I was in Hazard.
There was no jobs to be had. So I got a job in Lexington 'cause we were gonna be moving to UK. Got a job in Lexington at
Lexmark, testing printer boards, circuit boards. So I would leave on a Thursday night, work three 18 hour shifts at
Lexmark, come back home on on Monday, got married,
faked a car accident to get that the rest of the money
that I needed to get married. And the faking on that man,
I had bought a Chevy Spectrum at a car auction, gave
like 500 bucks for it. My aunt had previously
defrauded USAA insurance on a car accident. And she was telling me all about it. She's like, look, go down
to this chiropractor. Make sure you get the
insurance where they'll pay for a rental car. They'll pay lost wages. I was
like, they pay lost wages. She's like, "Yeah, they pay
lost wages." I was like, "Hmm." She's like, "By the way, you work for me." And I was like, "I work for you." - And you get to define
the wage and you can also define how long
you were unable to work. - Exactly. Exactly. And the chiropractor will
sign off on any damn thing. Alright. So my cousin Ronnie, he
figures out that I'm going, he finds out I'm gonna
fake this car accident. So he comes to him, he's like, "Hey man, can I get in on that?" I was like, "Yeah, man,
you get in on that." So this kid, he's five days
younger than I am. This kid. He goes to the dentist
the day that we're faking. It has a tooth pulled, tells
the dentist not to numb it, not to stitch it, just pull it. So he shows up, he shows up the day that we're driving out
to fake the accident. He is got blood all over his shirt. He is still bleeding outta
the mouth and everything else. I'm like, "Are you okay?" And he is like, "Yeah
man, it's gonna be good. It's gonna be good." I'm like, "Okay." So my mom by this point, I'm
living with my grandparents. My mom is up in the head of a hollow. So we're like, "We'll just do it up there. We'll go act like we're visiting my mom on the way back out, ran over a mountain." I was like, "okay." So we go visit and everything,
come back out that night, run over the side of the hill,
me and Ronnie walk back up, of course it totals the car. Walk back to my mom's
acting like we've wrecked. She knows what time it
is and everything else. And file the claims. So that gets the money to, to get married. And me and my wife move
from Hazard to Lexington. And I'm the kid that my crime, usually, if I was a single guy,
wouldn't break the law, wouldn't I would be all right. You know? But females involved, oh yeah, oh yeah, I gotta spend the money,
gotta show 'em gifts. Everything else was never enough to show love in some sort of healthy way. Always had to go overboard. And typically it was buying some or stealing some sort of expensive frat. - So that was the thing. That was the way you show love
is by buying expensive gifts. - Right? Or something overboard. Back then with Susan,
initially it was don't worry about working, I got it. You just worry about going to
school. She was a music major. I was like, "You just worry
about going to school, so don't worry about
cooking and cleaning." I got it, I got it. So not only was this guy
that was going overboard, but I was kind of a
control freak too, right? So, no, I got it, I got it, I got it. So here I am, you know, 60 hour week job, 18 hour class load cooking and cleaning. Something had to give. I quit the job. I couldn't do it. Quit the job and start back in fraud and trying to hide that
from her at the same time. So it was initially telemarketing fraud. Started, I was working at,
the first job I had was a telemarketer at a cemetery
selling grave sites. And then that ended, went over to work for the Shriners Circus,
Shriners Hospital. And there was a third party company that was doing all the telemarketing. Made really good money doing that. That job ended and then
they pivoted over to working with Kiwanis Clubs, selling food baskets to the food banks and everything. So I stole the phone list and started at my own Kiwanis Club and would do the telemarketing,
go out twice a week and pick up checks. Well, what happened was is I'm
going out picking up checks, go knock on a door. Turns out one of the persons that I had called was a
law enforcement officer. So he was like, "Who are you?" (laughs) I'm like, "I'm with the Kiwanis Club." And he is like, "No, you're not." (laughs) So got arrested, spent three
months in a county jail for theft by deception,
got out and we had to move from Lexington back to Hazard and live with Susan's parents. They had gotten a desktop computer. HP and I started surfing
around online, found eBay, and didn't really know
how to make money on eBay. About the same time I'm committing
low level frauds online. I don't really talk
about that in the past, the first time I've
really talked about that. But I would pay for it with bad checks. - So not using a platform like eBay more? - I would find somebody that
had like a stereo system on eBay, something like that. And I'd pay for it with a bad check and would rely on them not to chase me or because they were outta
state at that point. And the dollar amounts were very low. So got the money to move to
finally did those schemes enough to get the money to
move back to Lexington. Got to Lexington. And by this point, I'm, I'm
doing these, like I said, these schemes on eBay and I'm like, there's gotta be a better
way to make money on eBay. Gotta be. So, didn't really know how. One night I'm watching Inside
Edition with Bill O'Reilly and they're profiling Beanie Babies. So I'm sitting there watching
and the one they're profiling is this one called Peanut: The
Royal Blue Elephant selling for $1,500 on eBay. I'm sitting there going like, shit I need to find me a peanut. (laughs) So my initial thought was, well
there's gotta be one in one of these Hallmark stores
in Kentucky someplace. So I skipped class the next day, went out around all the Hallmark stores looking for peanut, no idiot,
he's on eBay for $1,500. So after a few hours of
that, I'm like, "Hmm." Turns out they had little gray
Beanie Baby Elephants for $8. Picked up one of those for $8, stopped by Kroger on the way
home, picked up a pack of blue Rit dye, went home,
tried to dye the little guy. So that was a nightmare. Turns out they're made out
of polyester, got 'em out of the bath, look like
they've got the mange. And what happens is, I'm
trying to die the thing. And I'm like, well that's not gonna work. That's just not gonna work. So
I got online, found a picture of a real one, posted it
on eBay, and I was like, well, what I can do is I can claim that's the one I've got. And then maybe claim that it got messed up in the mail and work out like that. So, posted a picture of a real one online, woman thought I had the real thing. She wins the bid that
social engineering kicks in immediately. I didn't want to, I didn't
wanna be on the defensive. I wanted to put her on the defensive. So as soon as she wins the
bid, I send her a message, Hey, we've not done any business before. I don't even know if I can trust you. What I need you to do protects us both. Go down the US Postal
Service, get two money orders, totaling $1,500, send them to me, issued by the US government. That way we're both protected. Soon as I get the money orders,
I'll send you your animal. She believed that, didn't
ask any questions at all. She believed that, sent
me the money orders, I cashed 'em out, sent her the creature, immediately got a phone
call, "I didn't order this." My response, "Lady, you
ordered a blue elephant. I sent you a blueish elephant." And she got pissed and she kept calling. What I found out, and that's
really the first lesson of cyber crime that
most of these criminals, including self learns, if you
delay a victim long enough, just keep putting 'em off. A lot of them, they get
exasperated, throw their hands in the air, walk away,
you don't hear from 'em. And none of them to this
day, none of them complained to law enforcement, they eat it. - It's a mixture of like,
you're exhausted by the process. So it's just easier to walk away and second, almost like an embarrassment. - So there's a whole slew of reasons. Alright, there's exhaustion. Certainly there's the embarrassment. So if you figure out, if you look at it today, where does the
embarrassment come from? Well, the media family members
we're all very good about blaming the victim for crimes. Why would you click on the link? Why would you send money to somebody you don't
know, blah, blah, blah. So you've got, that's going on. You've got the issue of
who do you complain to? Back then, you didn't know, do
you complain to local police because she's in another state. So which local police do you complain to? Do you complain to the feds? Well, it's not, the dollar
amounts aren't high enough to complain to feds. Feds are gonna tell you to go local. Local's gonna tell you, Hey,
it happened in Kentucky. Complain to them. Kentucky's gonna tell you,
well, shit, you're over there. We need you to come in. So there's this whole
issue, the jurisdiction of the blame factor, everything else. So I got away with that crime
and under my own name at that point, kept going
and got better at it. Started to understand how to hide identities, things like that. Started selling pirated software. Pirated software led into
installing mod chips. It was for the initial pirated software was Sega Saturn, PlayStation one. Well you had a have a mod chip in those to play the pirate to discs. So I started selling
and installing mod chips that led into installing mod chips into cable television boxes. So you could watch all the pay-per-view, which in turn led into
programming satellite DSS cards, those at HRCA satellite
systems pull the card out of it, program it, turns
on all the channels. Started doing that. - Can we just pause That
is very entrepreneurial. So just technically, so
there's laws and rules that you're breaking nonstop. So there's also legitimate
ways of doing that, which is break the rules of
the conventions of the past. That's the first principles thing. That's what Elon Musk and his ilk do all the time.
- Right? - That is guts and brilliance. But when it's crossing
the lines of the law, actually sometimes the law is outdated. The thing is, as a human being have to then compute the ethical
damage you're doing, like ethically, the damage you're doing about other human beings. That is fundamentally the thing that you're breaking is you're adding to the suffering in the
world in way another. And you're justifying it. But in terms of me,
sort of as an engineer, that is some gutsy thinking. That's how Was and Steve Jobs thought. - [Brett] Sure. - That's innovation. And maybe just think your, if you can introspect your
thinking process here. This is a new, I like how
you remember this in HP, like this is a totally new thing to you. Computers is yet another domain. How are you figuring these puzzles out? Presumably mostly alone.
- Alone. - When you were thinking through these problems-
- Alone. - Is this is a strange question to ask, but you know, what is
your thinking process? What is your approach to
solving these problems? So the approach is, you do
something and you fuck it up and you think back, okay,
how do I fix that? (laughs) So you fix that aspect,
you commit the crime again, and it goes a little bit further and it screws up, okay, how do I fix that? What's the issue on
that? How do I fix that? - So there's not a deep
design thinking, like- - Later on it becomes that. Once you lay that groundwork of the way these schemes are working, all right, it becomes that. And you can apply that to other things in cyber crime as a whole. Alright? But initially it's,
it's basically trial and error. You've got a problem. How
do you solve that problem? Alright, so I'm committing
these crimes under my name. How do I solve that? Well, one of the first principles
that we started to teach on ShadowCrew is all crimes should begin with identity theft. That's one of the main first
principles that a lot of people to this day still don't really get. Alright, why would I commit
a crime under my name if I can do it under your name? So that's one of the big buffers. And that takes trial and error to get to that point where you start to understand that's the way crime should
operate if you're a criminal. Alright? But with me, I mean it's trial and error. It's that childhood where that mindset is kind of ingrained in you. Where you're looking for ways, let's say non-traditional ways of getting around things
or getting through things. - I mean, one of the questions
I'll probably ask this later is, there's also a unique
aspect to the outcome of what you were doing, which
is you didn't get caught for a very long time.
- Right. - We'll talk about why that is. And the thing is, it's so interesting, all crime probably to be
effective should start with identity theft.
- Right. - I like that identity theft. 'Cause identity theft
can take so many forms, right?
- Right. - So yes, so ShadowCrew. So you started with love. (laughs) - Started with love. (laughs) So now we're, you know,
doing these schemes online. I'm selling to these, I'm programming these satellite DSS cards. And you, one of the interesting things, and you still see that to this
day, is something will happen that will create an
industry for criminals. All right, so what happened is Canadian judge rules about the same time that I'm doing these satellite cards. Canadian judge comes out
and says, "Hey, it's legal for my citizens to pirate those signals." And his reasoning is since
RCA doesn't sell the systems up here, my citizens can pirate it. Okay? So (laughs) what happens
is overnight about the same time PayPal comes into play. So PayPal's coming right
online at about the same time overnight little cottage industry pops up in the United States. You go down to Best Buy, buy the system for a hundred dollars, take it out in the parking lot,
open system up, pull it, open the box up, pull the
system out, pull the card out, throw the system away,
program the card, ship its to Canada, $500 a pop. Started doing that business
is good making, you know, three, $4,000 a week doing that. I'm like, yeah, that's good. I have so many orders, I
can't fill all the orders. And quickly think to myself, why do I need to fill any of them? They're in Canada, I'm down here. (laughs) You know, who are they gonna complain to? Because I already found out
people don't complain. Alright? They're not gonna complain to anybody. So I start-
- Especially in Canada. - Especially in Canada, and
I'm having 'em send money. That's when PayPal's first into play and it amazes me that
everybody is using PayPal. It's like you don't
even have to really ask. They're like, "Can we PayPal?" "Yeah, you can pay all
day long by PayPal." And PayPal had no clue what
they were doing with security. So it's like, okay, so they're
sending money to PayPal. I'm having the PayPal
cashed out to bank accounts in my name at that point. And I get scared because
by that point I'm stealing in four to $6,000 a week. And I'm like, somebody's gonna be looking at money laundering. So getting into my head,
I'm like, best thing that I can do is get a
fake driver's license, open up a bank account using that driver's license,
cash out at the ATM. Good. No idea where to
get a fake ID, not a clue. So I get online, looked around,
spent a couple weeks looking around, thought I found a guy. He went by the screen
named of Fake ID Man. Thought I found a guy. Sent him $200, sent him my
picture, dude rips me off. (both laughing) I'm like what the hell? (laughs) - Got played. - Oh, I got played. He had a little, a website
set up with reviews and I'm like, "Oh, it's all legitimate." Yeah, he's building that
trust that I talked about. So the end result, I got pissed and there was no site that dealt with anything criminal
or cyber crime related. The only real avenue you had was an IRC chat session, internet relay chat. And that, I'm sure you've been on that this, it rolling chat board. You don't know who the
hell you're talking to. Most of 'em are full of shit.
You can't trust anybody. And you're sitting there
trying to conduct business. So you know, if somebody
claims they've got a product or service, do they have it? Does it work? Are they
just gonna rip you off? Because in those channels,
everyone, it's a criminal. I kept looking around and I happened upon a website
called Counterfeit Library. And Counterfeit Library only
dealt with counterfeit degrees and certificates as only
degree mill type stuff. But they had a forum and
no one was using the forum. So I basically get on
there and bitch every day. I got ripped off, don't know what to do. Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. About the same time I start doing that, two other guys show
up, one's named Mr. X, he's out of Los Angeles. Other guy's named BLS Above, he is out of Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan. And we all become buddies. So a few weeks of me
bitching, them responding, BLS Above gets me on ICQ. And he sends me a message,
he's like, "I went by the screen name of GOllum
at that point, GOllumfun." And he's like, "GOllum, I can make you
a fake driver's license." And I was like, "Well, fuck do it." And he is like, "Well I'm
gonna charge you for it." I'm like, "Yeah you are." And he's like, "Yeah, I am."
I was like, "No you're not." And he is like, "Look man." He said, "this business, if
you're gonna do this, you have to trust people or you're gonna fail." He said, "so I'm gonna charge you $200 but I'm gonna send you
a driver's license." Well by this point I'm friends with the people who own
Counterfeit Library. We're emailing chat and everything else and I tell him, I'm like,
"Okay, I'm gonna send you $200 that way when you rip me
off, I'll have them ban you and I don't have to
deal with you anymore." And he is like, "Bet." I'm like, "Okay." So I sent him $200, sent him my picture. Two weeks later I get a driver's license name was
Steven Schwake out of Ohio. And real guy worked at a DP
payroll to this day, works at ADP is where the guy works,
got the driver's license. And to me, at that point in
time, it was the prettiest thing that I'd ever seen. You know, I'd never seen a fake ID before. I thought it was great. Turns out, you know, looking
back it was like, eh, so, (laughs) but- - Is kind of a strong first step in creating a fake identity. - [Brett] Very strong. Very strong. So this, so that was like- - Can I ask you, just on the point he made that if you're gonna be successful in this, you should have people you trust. He is he right on that? - [Brett] He's absolutely
right. He's absolutely. - So you have to have, this is like mob.
- You have to- - You have to have an inner
circle, that you trust. - You know, I'm sure you've probably seen, heard me say this before. Successful cyber crime. Alright? There are three necessities
to being successful online. If you're a criminal, three
necessities are gathering data, committing the crime,
and then cashing it out. All three of those necessities
have to work in conjunction. If they don't, the crime fails. The problem, and it's a huge problem, is that one guy can't do all three things. You've got the people who gather the data. Basically the general store sells. People who sell PII credit
card logins, data tools, they always sell the spoofed phone numbers or the RDPs stuff like that. A lot of the times those
people don't know how to commit the crime. And those people certainly don't know how to launder the money out
and put cash in pocket. So you've got either
because of a skill level, sometimes the geographic
location limits what that individual can do. Alright? So you have to rely on people who are good in areas where you are not in order for that crime to succeed. And that means you have
to trust those people. So what happens with ShadowCrew? Alright, so Counterfeit
Library is the start. Alright? Counterfeit Library
transitions over to ShadowCrew. Right before that transition,
there's a Ukrainian guy by the name of Dmitry Golubov. He was a spammer at that point in time. He saw what we were doing with Counterfeit Library and he liked it. He was getting all these
credit card details and this kid, I mean he is
a kid, this kid has an idea. And his idea was, I wondered if people would buy stolen
credit card details. - It's pretty good.
Ukrainian Russian accent. - Thanks. So he picks up the phone,
he calls his buddies, they call their buddies. They have a physical conference in Odessa. 150 of these cyber criminals show up. And they launched this idea. This launches a website
called CarderPlanet, which is the genesis of all
modern credit card theft as we know it. Alright? And so remember I mentioned
those three necessities of cyber crime. Dmitry had all the credit data
in the world and he partnered with all these other Ukrainians who had all this data as well. The problem was, is so much
fraud had been committed on that eastern side of Europe that every card had been shut down. Even if you were a legitimate card holder and tried to cash it out,
you weren't doing it at that point. So again, those three
necessities gathering data, committing crime, cashing out. Dmitry had the data, they
could commit the crime, they could not put cash in pocket. So we were running Counterfeit Library. One day I get this
message, or not a message. One day Script shows up and he posts just on the general forum. He posts, Hey, I've got credit card data. Give me an address, gimme
a burner phone number, wait five business days,
order whatever you want to. We had never seen anything
that we were a PayPal fraud and eBay fraud site is what we were and fake driver's licenses. So the, and we had, I guess
we had two, 3000 members at that point. So the response from the
members was, that can't be real. You've gotta be law enforcement. It's gotta be in trying to get us arrested and everything else. What, let me backtrack a little bit. So the driver's license that I had, got BLS Above had an idea. What he wanted to do is he
wanted to sell driver's licenses. Mr X wanted to sell social security cards. He made a very passable
social security card. Me, I had no skill level on that. I knew PayPal fraud and eBay fraud. So BLS was like, tell you
what, you be the reviewer. That way you get every product or service that comes in,
they'll have to send it to you or let you have access to it. You can learn the entire game. And because you're not selling anything, it gives you legitimacy on the reviews. Alright, so I start out as a
reviewer, the only reviewer on Counterfeit Library. So over the next year,
BLS Above turns out he was a pot grower. He goes back to growing pot 'cause he wasn't making shit
selling driver's licenses. Mr. X, about a year and a half in he gets arrested, cashing
out driver's credit card, not credit cards. Cashing out to casinos,
doing some with that. So I'm the only guy left standing and I'm at the top of the heap. So, and it becomes this thing where if I review somebody,
they make a lot of money. If I don't, you don't do business here. So Script shows up saying he is got this, I'm the only reviewer on site. People think he's law enforcement. First week it goes like that. After a while I'm like,
"Okay, I gotta do something." And I'm scared man. 'Cause I'm like, he
may be law enforcement. So I get him on ICQ and I'm like, "Hey, you
have to be reviewed." And he's like, "What the hell is that?" So I tell him what it is.
He's like, "You review me." And I was like, "Yeah, that's the idea." So give him a drop address,
give him a burner phone number. Wait five business days. And
I try to hit Dell for $5,000. The order fails. I get back on
ICQ, Hey man, it didn't work. He's like, gimme one more chance. I was like, look, I'll
give you one more chance, but it's your ass after that. And he's like, "One more chance." I'm like, "Okay, give him another address, another phone number. Wait another five business days." Hit Thompson's computer warehouse for $4,000, Dell for $5,000. Order goes through, get the products in. I post that review on Counterfeit Library and literally overnight we turn from an eBay PayPal fraud
site to a credit theft site. And that becomes a lot of money
really quickly for members. So we were doing, now it's
called CNP fraud card, not present fraud. So you hit, you use hit an online merchant with stolen credit card data. Back then a fairly experienced
fraudster could profit 30 to $40,000 a month. Okay? Just buying, you know,
laptops, what have you. And cashing out, you know, put 'em on eBay for sale and selling 'em like that. And 30 to 40K a month
was the profit on that. Script had a lot of buddies. He had people like Roman
Vega, these other guys that would sell not just credit card data, but counterfeit physical
credit cards as well. - Counterfeit not stolen, so counterfeit.
- Counterfeit. - That must be tough to do. - [Brett] So the connections- - Must be harder than what
it's driver's license. - Of course. It's crazy. So you know, you're back. So what's what BOA initially had and I became the United
States salesperson for BOA. But what he had was is he
was the first dumps provider in the United States. So on the back of your credit or debit card, there's a magnetic stripe. Three data tracks on the stripe. There was the first data
track is the customer's name. Second data track is
the card number/16 digit algorithm outside of
that, that's important. We'll get back to that in a few minutes. Third data track is called
indiscriminate data. No one uses it. Alright, so what's bought and sold is the second data track. It's called the dump and the reason that's sold is when you go into a shop, you insert the
card or you swipe the card. The only information that's sent out for verification is the second data track. Alright? That goes to the
processor bank for verification. The first data track that
customer's name shows up on the screen of the
cashier in front of you. So what typically happens is
you buy 10 of these dumps, you get 10 counterfeit cards in code track two on all 10 cards. Track one, you create one fake
driver's license track one is just the name of that
one fake driver's license. That way when you go in the
shop, swipe the card track two gets sent off a verification track, one shows up on the screen
in front of the cashier. If you ever ask for ID you pull
out the fake ID, everyone's an ice swarm fuzzy. You walk out with the cameras Rolex. - And track one could be a, it
doesn't have to be connected. It's not connected to track two. - Not connected at all. Alright? That's one of the big problems. Alright?
- Yeah. - So Script brought a
host of technical people into that type of environment. All committing credit card theft. We had proxy providers,
we had all these people that were doing this stuff. We start making a lot of money a lot. And the reason that happens is again, Script did not have the
ability to cash out. So he was reduced to selling things and at the same time he's looking for how do I make more money? Alright, the Ukrainians happened upon this thing called the CVV one breach or hack is what it's what they called it. So what happens is, remember I told you of track two card number forward
slash 16 digit algorithm. You gotta know the algorithm to encode it. So you can swipe the card or
take it to the ATM machine. Alright? ATM, you gotta know it. Now we were phishing data from hell. I mean we were doing a
lot of phishing, a lot. We were getting pins, we
were getting card numbers. But you can't get that algorithm. So the Ukrainians start testing stuff. What they found out was no bank had implemented the hash on track two. So you take the card number
forward slash any 16 digits, it would encode, take it to the ATM, pull cash out
'cause you got the pin. Alright, started doing that. - Wait, wait, sorry, I'm
trying to understand. So that means, so if there's no, are they generating random numbers or do they have valid
numbers for track two? - No numbers were needed at all as long as just the track two
was a complete track two. - So it's a valid track
two that doesn't... So the pin is the thing that gets you in. So back then, alright, so back then what we're talking about is you need to, typically today you
need a whole track two, you need that valid track two, all right? You need the 16 digit
card number forward slash and then whatever that
algorithm has out beside of it. All right? Back then none of the banks
had implemented that algorithm. So while the algorithm was there, you didn't need it to encode. - [Lex] Interesting. - Interesting. - So you can't make a lot of money with physical of fake credit.
- Credit card. Credit card not present. Fraud debit cards card not present fraud. Remember I told you was
30 to $40,000 a month. - [Lex] Yeah. All right. That turned
into 30 to $40,000 a day. - [Lex] Yeah. - The Ukrainians, again,
they can't cash it out. They've got all the data on the planet but they can't cash it out. Those three necessities of cyber crime. So the deal became, you have
to rely on the Americans. Tell you what, we'll give you 40%. So you had all these cashiers that were 40% of $40,000 a day. Yeah, we'll take that. Alright. Send the rest of it
over to by Western Union or what have you to Ukrainian contact. That's before cryptocurrency
came into play. Now you had a couple of
forerunners with E Gold and Liberty Reserve, things like that. But back then it starts out with Western Union, then
it becomes prepaid cards, sending track information over loading the card up like that. And then finally you get
to E Gold Liberty Reserve. And then today it's
with crypto that's used. Started stealing a lot of money a lot and that got law enforcement attention. So we started to see, I mean
this, it's a crazy story. We started to see IPs coming in from law enforcement agencies because back then they didn't know how to shield their identity either. (laughs) So you saw Secret Service, you saw DOD, you saw all these like, and you're like, that's interesting, you know? (both laughing) And at the same time we
had, it was called a hack, but it wasn't a hack. We had a guy that worked
at T-Mobile in Los Angeles. This is the same guy
that back then published Paris Hilton's phone contact
list that made a lot of news. Not only did he do that, but it turned out that the Los Angeles Secret Service Agency was using T-Mobile phones. So he's getting text messages of the Secret Service
investigating ShadowCrew and he posts those damn
things on ShadowCrew. So I'm sitting there
going head of the pile, I'm sitting there going, this is not going to end well, this is not gonna end well. So at the same time I had
access, I started out with access to the Indiana State
Sex Offenders Registry and I was using that to create
bank accounts lot the money out and I would sell the bank
accounts and stuff like that. They shut that down. The next database I had access to was the Texas Driver's
license database. And started using that to
create fake driver's licenses, what have you. And then finally we happened upon the California Death Index. Alright, complete information,
mother's maiden, socials, DOBs, all that. And it's like gotta be a use for that. Well you can use it to create
identities all day long. My idea was, I wonder if you could take somebody that's died and then file for social
security death benefit, not death benefits, but
social security benefits for that individual and get
that recurring paycheck in. So that takes a lot of
research to start seeing if you can do that. How does the federal
government know if you're dead? Do federal indexes
reference state indexes? You got all these questions that pop up. Well it turns out federal indexes don't reference state
indexes, it's against the law. So it also turns out the only
way the federal government knows you're dead is prior
to 1998, the family had to file a social security
death benefit for that person. Alright?
- Wow. Prior to '98. Of course most people don't. Right? Prior to '98 it took the family. After '98 the hospital can
do it, funeral home can do it or the family could do it. So a lot more people have it filed after, if they've died after. - But it's still, there's a lot of people probably-
- A lot of don't because that death
benefit's only like $219. - Okay?
- Yeah. - Nobody's thinking about that shit. So I started to apply for
social security benefits. Nope, number's dormant. So they want you to come in
for a physical interview. Here I am, you know, 32,
you're not gonna pass as a 65-year-old, so no. So the next idea I had was wonder if you could file income
tax returns on these people. Turns out you can all day long. So I started doing that and I started to steal once I got ramped up. 'Cause you test everything,
you know, you're testing to make sure you, I gotta figure out what the deposit instrument
is and everything else. And once you get all
that lined out, I started to steal $160,000 a week every week for 10 months outta the year. - By paying taxes? (chuckles) - [Brett] By filing fake tax returns. - Oh yeah, filing fake tax returns. - So you find a business.
- Yes. - And the way the system worked is the IRS will issue a refund on somebody before they're able to verify that that person worked for an employer. Still works like that today. Alright? - And you're keeping the
amounts relatively low? - [Brett] Keep 'em at $3,000. All right? Amounts are very low. - But you're still able to achieve scale because this large index- - Right, I got to where, and I was manual later
on, a couple buddies of mine went automated with it. - Wait, you were go doing this by hand? So there's no code involved. - All manual.
- Wow. - I'd file a return
once every six minutes, work 10 hours a day, three days a week. - So typing fast and clicking- - One return every six minutes, that's changing IP
that's changing address. Everything else wanna return
every six minutes (laughs) for three days a week. Fourth day I would take a road
trip, plot out a map of ATMs and then the next two days cash out. Bam, bam, bam, bam, bam.
Alright, come back home. Rinse and repeat, turns
out that a backpack, I don't see any sitting around here, but a backpack will hold $150,000 of twenties is what it'll hold. So I'd put 150K in twenties in a backpack. I had a spare bedroom, I'd come in, toss the backpack in the bedroom. - This is very, very
important information. And the fact that you know it is also very-
- Yeah. - First we started with the volume of coal that weighs a ton. And now a backpack coal $150,000 of twenties.
- Yeah. - And then you can multiply that by five or hundreds. - Yeah. - I like this.
- Well it's 20, most of the time it's 20. It's coming out ATM right? Each 20 weighs a gram.
- Each 20 weighs a gram. - So you can actually
go by weight, which is what federal authorities
do when they get a pallet of cash, they just weigh it. - [Lex] Oh, do they just weigh it? Okay. - 150K is seven and a half
keys of cash. (laughs) - 15. Oh that's pretty light. - Not bad. Not bad.
- Yes. You get big backpack, go do a good run with David Goggins with it.
- Yeah. Nice. - I like it. So, and the
fact you know this is great. So wait, where does that
come in with the backpack? - So what happens is, I didn't
know how to launder money. Alright. So, you know, I'm throwing
cash in the spare bedroom. One day you open up the bedroom
and you're like, (laughs) gotta do something with those backpacks. And that's when you start learning how to launder money, you know, cash based businesses, things like that. I had a production company, had a couple of detailing company, I was thinking about
going into food trucks, things like that in Charleston Central. - Actually, can you pause on
that to take a tangent there? How does money laundering work? I mean, at that time and what years are we talking about chat? - This is by the time the tax
return schemes go into play. We're talking 2002. 2003
is when tax returns start. - And so what at that time and what you're aware
of now, how it evolved, how does money laundering work? - You know, it's not that much
different. It's really not. You get a cash based business, start laundering the money
or putting the money through that saying that transactions are legal. You then start depositing
into bank accounts from the bank accounts. My thing was is have bank accounts in the United States, Mexico, Canada, and then finally bounce over to Estonia was the final
destination of all this stuff. And the idea is to try to
move them to so many places that by the end of the day it looks legal and you can't trace it all if you're ever caught,
which you ultimately are. But so cash based businesses- - So when you say, sorry to interrupt the
cash based businesses. So you have money that needs to be moved to other people. So how does that work?
What's the business? Are people providing you a service and you're giving them money? - Right, so you do the Ozark
thing if you wanna do that. So you can gamble cash out
some like that over trips to whatever casinos you've got. You've got your production
company or your detail company. So how many cars are you cleaning a day? How many companies have
you got to do that? Alright, whatever that company
is. It's gotta be cash based. Somebody's paying you in
cash, is what you're doing. You have to have enough of
those cash based businesses where it doesn't look funny. All right? Because if you're a detail company making a hundred thousand dollars
a month, that's a problem. (chuckles) - [Lex] Yeah. - Okay? So then you start
depositing into that. Well because of the Patriot Act as a suspicious activity report, SARS came in at $2,500 instead of
the 10K that it used to be. So all of a sudden you've
got multiple bank accounts that you've gotta set up. Alright? Fortunately what you also
had is you had a bunch of prepaid debit cards that were coming into play at the same time. So a combination of bank
accounts, prepaid debits that had ACH abilities
attach those as well. And you start running 'em all together. Then once it's outta the United States, you don't have to worry as much. You can start funneling that
into fewer bank accounts until finally you've
got the one main account that's over at Bank Latco and Estonia at that
point is what you've got. - [Lex] So a bunch of hops that end up at a place
that you can't trace. - And to give you an idea, I was arrested February 8th, 2005. My last seizure was 2010,
got the last seizure notice. So took him, they got it, (laughs) but it did took 'em,
that long to get to it. - So how do stories like with Script that come into play here
where he had someone who owed him money,
kidnapped and tortured. So when does it turn darker? - It turns darker when
the more money you make. Script was a kid that he
was stealing enough money that he was able to buy
whatever estate he wanted to. And he would brag about
touring the countryside. And if he saw property that
he liked, he would buy it. And that was not just a
brag, he was doing that. So this kid is stealing a lot of money. At the same time, he's got
connections politically 'cause of his family. He's got connections and that family's got connections
with the Ukrainian mob. Alright? So he's got these inroads and
people are looking out for him and he's stealing a lot
of money at the same time. Somebody doesn't pay him
a decent amount of money. Somebody doesn't pay him. Now we had never, with
ShadowCrew, with CarderPlanet, with Counterfeit Library,
we were basically the geeks. Alright? We were just the fraudsters,
the social engineers. We had never really considered violence. The rules that I had in play were, Hey, we don't do child pornography, we don't do counterfeit
currency, we don't do drugs. And the only thing we
ended up really obeying was the child porn stuff, except for Max Butler, who you mentioned earlier. Script, someone rips the guy off and he comes online on
ShadowCrew at that point and he posts these pictures one day. And I mean, it was a detailed narrative through the pictures. Had the guy that rammed in
the van, he had the door open, rammed in the van, had the guy tied up, had the guy being tortured. And the response was, this is what happens when you steal from me. And that's the first time that violence came into
play at that point. And that's when you start
realizing things are getting a little serious. - How did that make you feel? - The first response is, can't be real. He's just, that's he's just doing that. You know, he's just, he's
wanting to send a message. Then you're like, no,
that's real. That's real. - Were you afraid in your own heart that you might descend to that too? Like if you see that, or was
it pretty clear to you that that's a line that some people
can cross and some can't and you're not one of
those that can cross it? - You know, I gotta tell
you, I joke with my wife. The joke I tell my wife is, you know, if I knew some guy that
had 8,000 Bitcoins, I might be persuaded to
ask him for access to that. And she was like, how? And I was like, well, hammer and toes. - [Lex] Yeah. - And I say that as a joke, but there's that line where you're like, I remember who I used to be. And if you're looking
at that kind of money, I might be persuaded to do that back then. And I think that's was
Script's issue, is he, it was a lot of money to him. - Was the money. And then there's, you know,
violence can also be gradual. So over time you do a
little more, a little more, a little more, a little more. - You get used to what's going on. And then like, get desensitized - And you figure, you take somebody like, like Ross Ulbricht, the
Silk Road guy, alright? Ross was not a violent guy. He was not. But at that point in time, you know, he was sitting on 24 million in Bitcoin. He was the only game in town. And that 24 now is like, I don't know, 22, 24
billion, some crap like that. But he felt in danger. This guy was gonna turn him in it was a black mount him everything. So Ross thinks he hires a
couple hit men to kill the guy. So it becomes that thing. And I saw that over and over again. And I'd like to say I wasn't like that. But given the same circumstances, I would've probably done the same thing. - And also, it's not just about money. There's a lot of other forces,
like if you're threatened for your wellbeing or for your wealth or for your power, it's all
under different motivations. - Plus that online aspect
for those communities like that, if you're the
head guy, you really feel like you're the parent of these guys. So if somebody's starting
to threaten them, it's like, alright, what do I need to do? - So what do you make of silk
roast the ShadowCrew started something that today you can call darknet and darknet markets. So these markets that operate,
that trade things, everything from child pornography to drugs to, I mean, what else?
- Everything. - What are the dark things
that humans want to do that they don't want anyone to know about? All of those things.
- Right. - So, can you maybe
tell me, you know what, let's just even step back. What is the darknet? How big is it? What happens there? - Let's backtrack a little bit more before we get to that.
- Yes. - All right, what ShadowCrew
did, other than dealing in all these stolen wares,
what ShadowCrew did, that's really important. Remember those three
necessities that I talked about. But the important thing
is it established trust among criminals. Alright? Because that's a necessity. You have to be able to trust
who you're dealing with. 'Cause you have to deal with somebody. You have to, alright, so how do you know you're
not dealing with a cop? How do you know you're dealing
with somebody that's skilled? How do you know you're
gonna deal with somebody that's not gonna rip you off? You gotta be able to
trust that individual. The ShadowCrew provided that
trust mechanism for criminals. You had that communication
channel, the forums where you could reference
conversations, weeks, months, old, take part, learn
from those conversations. You had vouching systems
and review systems in place, escrow systems in place. You could knew by looking
at someone's screen name if you could trust the individual network with the individual. Alright? And that community of just humans provided that backbone of trust. And that's really interesting
when you think about it. You had the trust that was there, but you also had this, almost this instantaneous information
that was available about the community or about
cyber crime at large. And that's still in play today. Alright? So when that was the way things were until a couple of things happened. And one was cryptocurrency,
the other one was the Tor browser, the dark web. Now I was working with the
Secret Service, ripping the Secret Service off
when Tor comes into play. Alright? So we got a memo in one day and it was talking about the Tor browser and it was like, we really
need to be careful with this. This is gonna be problem. And so we all fired up the Tor browser This was 2005, early '06. Turns out it was completely unusable. Could not use it at all simply
because no one was using it. And it was extremely slow. - So people don't know,
Tor browser is a way to be completely anonymous. - As long as you properly know how to use it.
- Right. - Huge caveat.
- Yeah. - Alright. So developed by the United States Navy and they developed it.
- Didn't know this. - Yeah, I did not, oh yeah. - It wasn't the hackers that?
- U-huh. - Interesting. - US Navy. To this day, the number one funder of Tor, military to this day, all right? - Interesting. I mean the same, I
guess with the internet. The origins are-
- So it was developed so that operatives could communicate-
- Interesting. - With each other
without being identified. Alright. It then goes open source,
they release it, EFF comes in and starts sponsoring
everything else like that. The next idea was, well,
you know, people can get around their country's firewalls, whistleblowers can use
it, things like that. Well, someone forgot to
mention that the first adoptees of tech, if you can
use it to launder money or remain anonymous, are criminals. And so criminals start to
use the damn thing. Alright? So along the same time we get, well a few years later we
get Satoshi Nakamoto pops up with his ideas for Bitcoin, and then Ross Ulbricht runs with it. Ross Ulbricht decides he's
gonna start up Silk Road. So initially the people
who were using Tor, which later is the dark
web people were using Tor, were just talking with each
other, visiting websites, communicating like that. Someone figured out, Hey man, we could host
websites on this thing. And they have a lot of
trouble finding the box. So that is the advent of
Silk Road all of a sudden. Ross Ulbricht has this idea that he's gonna change the world by becoming the largest
drug dealer on the planet. So he opens up the Silk Road and the payment instrument
he allows is Bitcoin. So if those people out there
are wondering why Bitcoin is going at what, 44K today?
- Yeah. And by the time this is out, it could be 100,000 or 10,000. - [Brett] Absolutely. Absolutely. We'll see, who knows. (laughs) If it's 10,000, I'm gonna buy some buy. (both laughing) - Which is a hilarious statement to make because that statement
would be ridiculously wrong like five years ago. Right?
- I know, I know, I know. - And people a hundred years
from now would be laughing. Wait, it was that low. (both laughing) - So back then, so he
only accepts Bitcoin. And of course the initial use case of crypto is, no one
wants to admit it today, but the initial use case is,
we're gonna buy a bunch of pot. (laughs) And we need somebody, we
need a way to pay for it. So that's what happens. Ross. It's really interesting to me. If you look at motivations
of cyber criminals, the motivations are
status, cash, ideology. Alright? My guys all cash across
the board, all cash. Ross' ideology, he really believed he was gonna change the world. He really didn't. I've been fortunate. I actually know the guy
who ran Silk Road two and have talked to the
kid, everything else. And I will tell you that
those guys who are motivated by ideology, they are a
completely different breed. They really are. It's not, you know, the cash
guy, it's low hanging fruit. The ease of it's hard to
stop committing crime. But it's much easier for a
cash motivated individual to stop than it is that ideology guy, that Silk Road two guy, he's still got it. You know, he's not breaking the law, but you can see it's like
he wants to. (laughs) He wants to. - That's fascinating that I mean the worst atrocities
in human history are committed with people that operate under ideology. All the other motivations in which weaker. - But you, you know, you think about it and you've got, with Ross, I mean, very bright guy, very bright guy. But think about the amount
of cognitive dissonance that the guy's got, that he thinks he's gonna change the world by running a drug site. I mean, he certainly, I mean, could he have changed the world? Yeah. Could he have done it
like that? Probably not. - Well, I can steel man those arguments. I listen to quite a few libertarians, and you can push that to anarchists and, you know, there's a
lot of people that argue. So I actually talked to
faculty, to a professor at Columbia who actually argues that all drugs should be legalized. And not at a philosophical
level, political level, but the fact that all the
negative consequences of drugs that people talk about actually have to do with other factors in your life. - [Brett] I would agree with that. - And so that's a, okay, but that's more like a argument about
negative aspects of drugs. I think the ideology comes in where it's like, well, nobody should
tell you what to do. You should have the responsibility of your own actions like the government or any other institution
shouldn't be the rule setters the constraints for
how you live your life. And so that I could see
that argument being made. And ultimately, if you
like, create an open market for drugs, how that could
build a better society. It might break down the
outdated, the corrupt, the bureaucratic institutions. I mean, you can make that argument. - There's argument, there's an argument. And let's be fair, I
wanna be fair with it. Yeah. I mean, could,
did he change the world? We do have this whole thing
called cryptocurrency. - [Lex] Yeah. In the long
arc of history, perhaps. Yeah, we do have that. So that's a biggie. - And that might have
been for it to take hold in society, maybe the darker
parts of society at first. Maybe that was necessary. - Right? I mean, maybe I see how it pans out. ShadowCrew, we had this guy, Albert Gonzalez, this
kid's name, we were growing so big that I had to
start farming things out. So the first thing I started farming, I instituted this review
system, kind of establishing that trust mechanism even
further for criminals to use. We needed somebody to take
care of our tech aspects of the forum. So associate of mine by the name of Kim Taylor, where we were looking for a forum techie, he
comes to me one night and he is like, "Founder forum techie". And I was like, "Who's that?" And he is like, "It's this kid." And I was like, "Is any good?" He's like, "Well, he knows the software." And I was like, "Okay,
we just signed his on." He went by the screen name of CumbaJohnny was his screen name. And he starts selling credit cards after a while under a
screen name of Scarface. And that CVV one breach
where you're cashing out the track twos at ATMs,
you know, $40,000 a day. So Albert's in New Jersey
one day, broad daylight and stands at an ATM for 40 minutes, just standing there
feeding in one ATM card after another point out cash,
taking the twenties out, stuffing 'em in that backpack. Meanwhile, just across
the street, a couple of cops just happened to be there. And they start noticing this
kid's just standing there. So 40 minutes, they watch
this kid, 40 minutes. Finally one cop looks at the other, let me see what's going on there. (Lex chuckles) Walks over across the street,
Albert's wearing a wig, he's got the disguise on
everything else like that. Ask him, "Kid, what are you
doing?" Albert falls apart. We didn't know Albert had been arrested. So Albert immediately
goes in, I wanna work for the Secret Service. At that point in time,
Secret Service I referred to, and I wanna make sure I don't say it's not like that anymore. But back then they were
fucking idiots, alright? They had no clue what was going on. - There was a competence issue that they were working
through, is one way to put it. - That's a nice euphemism. So, (laughs) they were fucking idiots is another way to say it. - So they're just like not
aware of this digital world. - They had no clue, no clue. The way that Albert tells
them how to catch us because they looked at
him, how do we catch 'em? (both laughing) And Albert's like, Albert, I'm
serious. Yeah, I'm serious. So Albert's like, "Well,
you could try a VPN." "What's a VPN?"
- Yeah. - So he explains it to 'em. They're like, "That's a good idea." So I quit ShadowCrew. I was worried about all the news that was coming in and
everything like that. I'm stealing 160K a week. I didn't know Albert had been arrested. I'm worried about being arrested. I know the writing's on the wall and I'm like, "I'm quitting, I retire." - Where did you see the writing?
- That were coming in? - Yeah. - The text messages about the
Secret Service investigators referred to building to
how the pressures building. It's not gonna end well, man,
this is not gonna end well. This is going to be bad. So I announced my
retirement of February 15th. I'm sorry, April 15th,
2004 is my retirement. Yeah, I think that's 2004. And I quit. I walk away. Well,
Albert had been arrested. They cut him loose. No one
knows he's been arrested. He comes back into ShadowCrew. I leave Kim Taylor at the same time, he's kind of on the run. Which, if you wanna know that story, that's a nightmare story in and of itself. So my second in charge,
Kim Taylor, this guy, there was this guy named David. Oh, what was his name? He was El Mariachi, was the
guy's name David Thomas. (Brett laughs) David. Yeah, he was a film guy. - [Lex] Scarface. - Yeah, so El Mariachi,
real name David Thomas. He's on the run out of
Nebraska for check fraud. He comes to us on ShadowCrew
telling us this sad story. We take up a collection for
this guy, send it to him. Alright? I get him a job working with a low level carder
trying to make him some money. Alright? El Mariachi or Thomas
does this for a few weeks. Comes to me one day and he's like, "Man, I'm not making any money." I'm like, "Okay, lemme see what I can do." Well, I had a Ukrainian guy by the name of Big Buyer,
he real friend of mine. And I contacted him I was like, "Look man, I got a guy that wants to do some work. Can you help the guy out?" And he's like, "I got
him." I was like, "Okay." So he sends Thomas enough money to go. Thomas is in Texas at that
point, sends Thomas enough money to go from Texas to Issaquah, Washington and rent an office space. Alright? So Thomas goes up there,
rents his office space, him and his girlfriend rents an office space. And the plan is this Big Buyer is going to place an order, get product sent. Mariachi is gonna get the
product listed on eBay. Cash out 50/50. Easy enough, alright? So Big Buyer places an order. First order is outpost.com, $18,000, the largest order
outpost.com had ever received at that point in time.
- Okay? - Order goes through.
- Goes through still. - Goes through, he gets the product. All right, Mariachi comes
back, tells my second in charge, Kim Taylor. Kim Taylor at this point,
I'm 33, 34. Kim Taylor's 46. He works at the tattered cover bookstore in Denver, Colorado is where
he works at this point. And he fancies himself
Jason Bourne. Alright. He's even got one of the
screen names of Jason Bourne. So I'm like, "All right." So Mariachi's telling us
how much money he's making, everything else. I'm like, "Well, that's good.
I'm glad you're all right." Kim contacts me like, "I
want to go to Issaquah." And I was like, "Why?" And he's
like, "To make some money." I'm like, "You're making money." He's like, "I wanna go to Issaquah." I was like, "All right, go be careful." So he gets in the car. (laughs) Saturn is what he is driving. He drives his little piece of shit, Saturn all the way up to Issaquah,
gets there, you know, midnight. They party all night long because they've never met each other. They're just celebrating
partying, drinking, everything else like that. Meanwhile, Big Buyer has
placed another order, with outpost.com, $17,000, the second largest order outpost.com had ever received at that point in time. By this point in time,
outpost knows the first order was fraudulent. Guess where it's going? The exact same address,
the first order goes. So Outpost picks up the
phone calls is Issaquah PD, "Hey, we got a fraudster." Issaquah is like, "Would you
mind sending some empty boxes?" And Outpost is like, "Be happy to." So the rule was, is on credit card fraud, if you've got full account
access, you place the order the morning that's supposed
to arrive, you sign into the bank account or
the credit card account. If you can sign in, you
go pick up your product. If you can't sign in, you
go back to sleep that day. Alright, well, Big Buyer
was the guy who placed the order, Mariachi and my
second in charge are partying. Alright? So they're supposed to
contact Big Buyer, they don't. Meanwhile, Big Buyer is
raising hell, getting up with me like, "Hey, where are you? Where are the guys? I can't find them. They don't need to pick up this product." So I can't get in touch with 'em. They go down to pick up the... So Mariachi's got a
Cadillac, old '70s Cadillac, he's got a Cadillac
pulls into the complex. Now Mariachi's driving, Kim
Taylor's in the passenger seat. David Thomas's girlfriend's
in the back seat as they pull into the complex
going through the parking lot. Mariachi just happens to
glance over and he sees a van with a guy sitting sideways
in the van, and he looks at Kim Taylor and he is
like, that's an undercover. And Kim's like, "Ah, it's fine." (laughs) So they pull up to the office complex. Kim's like, "I'll go in
and get the packages." So he walks in, looks at the guy behind the counter, I believe
you have some packages for us guy's, like one second. So (laughs) he disappear around the wall, out pops Issaquah PD, arrests Kim. David Thomas is in the car
watching all this happen. He bugs out and they arrest
him on the interstate where he has three fake
driver's licenses in his wallet, along with his real driver's license. Another no-no, but they get him. So David Thomas had outstanding
warrants out in Nebraska. We couldn't bond him out. Kim Taylor didn't have any
warrants, so we bonded him out. My third in charge kid,
Seth Sanders was his name. He bonds him out, uses his girlfriend's
account to bond him out. And I get Marriott, not,
I get Kim Taylor to go to Utah where he, another
friend of mine agrees to house him, him and his wife. So I think everything's fine and all that. About three weeks later,
this guy in Utah gets me on the phone, "Hey,
he's gotta go." (laughs) I'm like, "What's going on?" He's like, "Well, the
only thing he's doing is popping ecstasy tablets
every day, all day." And I'm like, "Seriously?"
He is like, "Yeah." I was like, "Okay, he's gotta go." So we kick him out of there. By this point, I've got another
crew that's coming through. I mean, I had all these crews
running, had another crew that's coming through Denver,
send Kim back to Denver to partner up with these guys. Kim gets these guys arrested. So by this point in time, I'm exasperated, I just wanna throw my hands
up in the air and walk away. So my retirement's coming
up at the same time. So I'm like, "Fuck it, I'm done." So I tell everybody,
the rest of the admins and the mods there, I'm like,
this is what's going on. You guys need to watch out for this. We need to ban Kim, not let him back in. Be careful what's going on." I walk away at the same
time I walk away, come to Johnny, Albert Gonzalez
comes back into play. He sees everything that's going on. He uses that to his advantage. He starts banning
everyone that's suspicious of him sets up the VPN at the same time and says, Hey, to make
sure we're all secure, I need all transactions
to go through this VPN. VPNs ran by the Secret Service. Alright. Secret Service ends up, I
think they ended up cataloging like $7 million worth of
transactions over the next four or five months. ShadowCrew makes the front
cover of Forbes August, 2004, headline, Who's Stealing Your identity? October 26th, 2004, United
States Secret Service arrest, 33 people, six countries, six hours. I was in Charleston, South
Carolina when I saw it happen. And I'm like. (laughs) - You're the one that got away. - I'm the one public, there
were a couple other guys that got away that they
didn't publicly mention. One, his name was Tron. He was-
- In the Zero. - Yeah, exactly. But he went
by the screen named Tron. He had access, almost unfettered
access to Bank of America. So what happens is they
identified the guy, Secret Service is in
the air to go get him. They call the Ukrainian police, Hey, we're coming down to arrest this guy. Ukrainian cops are like, oh, come on down. So as soon as they got off the phone, Ukrainian cops get in the car, go down and tell Tron, "Hey,
they're coming to get ya." - [Lex] Yeah. - So (laughs) he bugs
out, down to South America and they don't catch 'em. I think for six or seven years after that, something like that.
- Caught him eventually. - But caught him eventually. - Well, let me actually ask
you on this point, you said that, "If you do cyber crime eventually, it's not gonna end well."
- It does not end well. - Why is that? - So, I don't wanna say that's because you're gonna be arrested because honestly, very
few people are arrested. Alright? But it doesn't end well
because of the type of person that you become. You quoted me earlier, "You
lie to everybody around you. You lie to yourself,
you lie to your friends, you lie to your family. Of course you lie to your victims. You don't have any friends." I went 20 years without friends. I had associates, I didn't have friends. - [Lex] And you can't truly trust- - You don't trust anybody. You don't trust anybody. I had my wife, I was
married for nine years. I lied to her every single
day of those nine years. And it took her nine years
to give up on me to realize that I was that piece of shit. And she leaves at that point. Then from there I started dating
a stripper and lied to her. Lied to her, I thought I had friends. I lied to all those people that I knew that thought they were my friends. I lied to 'em. The entire time you
become that individual. I don't think a lot of people really
understand how bad that is. You know, you pointed out that woman that I ripped off, she
was trying to put a roof on her house for frigging kids, man. You're that person, you're that person. - You're also lying to yourself. And that's not a mindset in
which you can grow as a person. Find happiness, find genuine,
simple human affection, which is what love is. - [Brett] Yeah. - Simple, real friendship. All of those things. - Right. So, you know, I
went to prison, of course. One of the things that, one
of the most important lessons that I've learned in prison, because cyber crime, crime as a whole, if you're a criminal, it's
an addiction, alright? If you're addicted to something,
whether it be drugs, crime, gambling, what have you, if
you're addicted to something, you cannot love anything
else except the addiction. The addiction comes first. Alright? And, you know, you pointed out some of those truly despicable things. Script for example, torches that guy. You get to the point where it's like, okay, this is the business. And you know, I tried to
convince myself that, you know, I'm a businessman, but I'm
a good guy on the other end. And you're not. You're not. So those lies become a
part of everything else. And, yeah, you get the higher
ups are usually arrested. They are. But you know, you've got millions of cyber criminals these days. So most guys are not gonna be arrested. So you may be arrested, you may be like freaking Jonathan
James, he was a minor. A very, very talented
individual, very competent. As kid, he had broke
into NASA, DOD Pentagon. He shut the NASA computers
down for six weeks. This is the, that kid
then he decides he wants to go into credit card
theft partners with Albert. He's arrested with Albert. Law enforcement, they
were gonna blame him. He was the only competent individual. So this kid gets up one day,
he wasn't in prison yet. He gets up one day, goes
in his dad's bedroom, gets out his 45, walks in the bathroom and blows his brains out. You've got things like that. Or you're gonna rip somebody
off and you're gonna end up like Scripted with that guy. The guy who hit, who ran
evolution marketplace, the one who, two people ran
that, the guy and a girl. And no one knew who they were. He ends up stealing
about $24 million, a lot of it from Ukrainian mob. And they found him about a year later on a beach without his head and hands. But, you know, it always goes south. But more than anything, to
me, the negative thing is, is you really become
somebody that, I mean, just truly a despicable human being. When you get to the point when you steal, you're destroying people's
retirement accounts. You're stealing money from
a woman that simply wants to do something good for her family. When you become that individual, and you're okay with that. My God, man, it got to the
point, I had one guy ripped off. It's like for $900 is when I first started the cyber crime stuff, it's
when I was becoming competent. And I ripped him off for like $900. And he sent me an email and he was like, the email said something like, I guess you needed the money and it's okay, you know, you keep it. And I'm getting chills
right now thinking about it. But it's that where you
become that individual, yeah. - Can I actually backtrack? Listen, I love, love, okay.
- I do too. - And there's a story that you fell in love with the stripper. I mean, you have to tell the story. So how did you fall in love with somebody? Not that there's anything
wrong with that profession, but it's romantic. It's like that true romance,
by the way. Great movie. - It is a great film.
It's truly a great film. - Even Brad Pitt who makes a
brief appearance is genius. There's so much good acting there. Anyway, so tell me that love story. - Like I said, I get from my dad, I get that fear of being abandoned. You know, I lied to my wife for
nine years until she leaves. And I was in Charleston, South Carolina. And what happened was, I noticed that Susan, she was not coming
to bed like she used to. And she'd stay up all night
long and sometimes she'd go and be gone a few hours
or, and everything else. And I'm like, well, something's going on. And I'd pass by her, her computer and she would minimize the screens. And I'm like, "Well, gotta figure out
what the hell's going on." So put a key logger on her system- - As anybody should in a relationship. - Absolutely. 'Cause you trust them. (laughs) You know, so why not? - You should be tracking
all their movements, all their-
- Exactly, exactly. Like I said, I was the control freak too.
- It's romantic. - So I found out she
had been cheating on me and she was-
- See? There you go. You had a reason.
- Had reason I justified. So I found out she was cheating on me. She was asleep when I found it out. And I sat there looking at,
and I was like, well shit. So got up, walked in the
bedroom, opened up the wardrobe, got a suitcase out, started
putting her clothes in it. Then she wakes up, she's
like, "Where are you going?" I'm like, "I'm not, you are." Well my bravado
disappeared pretty quickly. I took about a week of both of us crying and arguing and everything
else and she finally left. And I went through this depression. I was in Charleston, South Carolina. I would just walk around
the house, kind of stumbling in a daze, realized I was getting suicidal and was smart enough to
do something about it. And picked up the phone book. And that's where there's
always this sense of humor. So I picked up the phone book, I'm going through the yellow pages. I'm like, psychologist,
criminal psychologist, ' cause I need that. (both laughing) And called this psychologist crying to her, I mean, crying on the phone. Told her everything, I'm this criminal, this is what's happened. She's like, "Come in now." I was like, go in, spill my guts. And saw her for about four months. And I joke about, well it's true. She was trying to get me
to stop breaking the law and to go into real estate. And I remember telling her,
"Is there a difference?" (laughs) She was like, "Yes, there's a difference." So saw her for about
four months. I was 34. I didn't start drinking until I was 34. Had never done drugs,
anything else like that. 'Cause my mom was an addict
as well. So I was this guy. I always wanted to be in control. Didn't wanna, you know,
lose control of myself and had never been to the strip club. So one night I was getting lonely. So I walked into the strip club, actually I was researched this strip club and it was Joe's Roundup in Charleston, South Carolina.
- Joe's Roundup. - Joe's Roundup, little
bitty hole in the wall stuff. I was, yeah, real classy. So I walked in and I'm literally
that guy, man that fell in love with the first, the
first stripper that he sees. She walks by, I'm like, "That one." So I didn't know, I didn't
know the strip club game. I'm again, criminal naive as hell. So belly up at the bar, order the beer. I'm sitting there drinking it. She comes over to me and
we start chatting, talking. And she's like, would you like
to get a bottle of champagne? I was like, does does that
mean going in back or what? And she's like, "Well yeah, you need to do
the bottle of going back." And I was like, "Sure, let's
buy a bottle of champagne. $400 bottle of Korbel."
- Wow. - So (laughs) I'm like, "Alright." And again, that bravado
disappears pretty quickly. I get back there and
we talk for two hours. And you know, nowadays I don't understand that most men who go to
strip clubs, the strippers are their therapist most of the time. Alright. So I'm sitting there
talking, we're talking and of course she's sizing me up. She's looking at the watch, she's like, "What kind of car
you drive?" (laughs) You know, everything else. And
I'm like telling her talking. And so at the end of the night I'm like, "Really nice meeting." She's like, "It's so nice
meeting you too." So I leave. - So you guys just talked-
- Just talked. - And there's still no dancing, this feeling of love and all that. - Yeah, so just talked,
got along pretty good. I'm like, "I like her, I like her." So come back in a week later,
walk in and call her over. And I was like, "Look." I said, "I'm not." I said, "that was my first
time to a strip club." I said, "don't know you. I like you, I'd like you to know you more. Would you like to go out to dinner?" And she was like, "Yeah." I was like, "Where would you like to go?" So she says, "Rudi John." And I was like, "Don't know what it is,
that's where we'll go." So I go back and I was,
I had a theater buddy at that point in time 'cause I was trying to
get my life together. JC was his name. And I
was like, "I got a date." And he's like, "You got a date?" I was like, "Yeah man, I got a date." And he's like, "Okay,
where are you going?" And I was like, "Ru Dejan." And he is like, "Take
your wallet." (laughs) I'm like, "Yeah." And he's
like, "Take your wallet." I was like, "Alright." So we start, you know, doing
the lunch and the dinner thing. And I get to where I really like her. I was 34, she was 23 and
got along really well. Listened, you know, had common
interest in music and arts and stuff like that. She had, I mean, a stereotypical, she had graduated college with a degree in religious studies.
- Wow. - Yeah. So I was like, all right. - So yeah you just fell in love. - Yeah, we got along
really well. Really well. So I ended up moving her in with me. She hadn't quit her job. And what was happening was
she was working weekends and you know, the club
would close at 3:00 or 4:00. She wouldn't come home until
10:00 or 11:00 in the morning. And most of the time it
would be a phone call saying come and pick me
up, I can't drive home. And then I'd never used
drugs, had never been around and my mom Valium and
pot and things like that. But as far as interacting with her, I'd never done anything like that. By this point in time, I'm kind of getting head over heels with her. I've moved in with me and everything and I had never, I was
34, I had never went through a woman's purse my entire life. And so she comes in, passes out and I'm like, "I gotta
know what the going on." And went over and went through
her purse, found cocaine and you know, the straw cut
off straws and all that stuff. And I'm like, broke my heart. I just sat there and started crying. Got online and I'm the guy
that can find information. So I started looking for forums on strip clubs, found a forum. I found that one found
where it was talking about her prostituting
herself to support the habit. And that got me, man. That got me, I was talking
about everything she was doing to do that. - [Lex] And that broke your heart there. Oh man. Yeah. So went and I didn't have
the heart to tell her that I knew she was
prostitute, but I went to her and I was like, she's waking up. And I was like, "Look, I
found this in your purse. I can't have that." And she's like, "Well, you
think I'm prostituting?" I was like, "No, no, I don't think that." I knew it, but I didn't mention it to her. And I was like, "I can't have that." "Well I don't do that. It's
just a one time thing." I was like, "All right." So she went back to work and continued to do it
for a couple more weeks. And then finally I was like, "I can't." So I picked her up one morning as like she was couldn't drive home before I picked her up
I had written her note, left it on the pillow. So I brought her home,
tucked her in the bed and told her I'd be back that night. Told her she had a
letter when she woke up. I woke up and the letter was
basically, you know, I love you if you can't stop this, don't
be here when I get back. And I went to Columbia that day, came back that night and she had quit her job and she quit drugs that
night, really quit 'em. And I got it in my head that I needed to do whatever I needed to do to make sure she didn't go back to that. That became that to me
because of my background. That meant spending a lot of money. And so every night was, you
know, three to $600 for dinner. It was a thousand
dollars shoes every week. $2,000 purse every week. All that. I had most of my money
laundered out to Estonia. And Elizabeth at the same time she quit, but she didn't want me to go anywhere. Alright, all right. She
wanted me there all the time. I guess that was that connection. You know, she, I guess she was scared she might go back to something. So ShadowCrew gets
busted and I start, I go through basically all my
US funds can't get anything from overseas. ShadowCrew gets busted October. I can't go into committing tax fraud because season's over, can't go back into credit fraud because
ShadowCrew's been busted. I don't know who to trust online. I'm left with running
counterfeit cashier's checks to get money in trying to make it until, you know, I can start
back with some other fraud and lying to her the entire time. - She knows about none of this? - None of none of it. She thinks I've got a shit load of money and she's got expensive taste. And at the same time she
couldn't be intimate. I mean the girl loved me, that's the first time
I've really said that. - [Lex] So there's deep
love there both ways? - Yeah. Yeah. - [Lex] The things we do. - She couldn't be intimate
unless she was stone cold drunk. I mean, just stone cold drunk. And I didn't mind her drinking alcohol. I'd rather have that than cocaine. So that was the intimacy there. And I kept thinking if I continue to invest that it would work out. You know, that just keep
going. She'll be all right. We'll be all right. And what happens is like I
said, she thought I had money. She thought I had money. She wanted a couple of
Tiffany engagement rings. So I said, "We can get married." I figured if marriage show her that I love her, show her
it's gonna be all right. So I was like, "Oh, let's get married." She's like, "Well I've always
wanted a Tiffany ring." I didn't have money to
buy the Tiffany ring 'cause all my money was overseas. So here, I've defrauded. So
it's counterfeit cashier's. I find like a three karat
ring on eBay for 20 grand and pay for it with a
counterfeit cashier's check. At the same time because
she doesn't want me to leave, she needs me there. Typically, if you're doing
that type of crime, you need to be traveling. You can't do it in one central area because you're gonna be
identified pretty quickly. I knew that, but I
didn't have much choice. So start running
counterfeit cashier's checks to get the money to live and everything. Get the engagement ring. We were scheduled to be married. Our wedding date was February 26th, 2005. February 8th, 2005. I've got a Tiffany wedding band, a couple of 'em coming in and I get arrested in Charleston, South Carolina. And she didn't know. I told her, I said, "I've
gotta go pick up those rings." She didn't, she thought I
was just having 'em sent in, said "I gotta go get those rings." And I said, "we'll go out
to dinner after that." And I left at like eight
o'clock in the morning and I was arrested at I think
11:30, something like that. Of course I wanted to call her, you know, and the FBI got me, it turns
out it was controlled delivery. There were like 30 agents
in the parking lot. FBI got me and Charleston PD got me. Within 45 minutes the
Secret Service comes in, takes over that investigation. They knew exactly who they had. About seven o'clock at night, they're like, "We wanna search your house." And I was, "Look, I'll
sign off on the search if you let me go with
you so I can see her." And they were like, "Okay." So I gotta see my phone at
that point had like 140 calls that she, where she had been
trying to call that time. - She was worried.
- Yeah. - And so they load me up and held, I mean you talk
about 10, 12 cars, you know, 40 agents, everything else. She's got a dog at that point. I'm scared they're gonna shoot the dog. And it was dark. And they had me walk up
and they're all behind me and I knock on the door and
tell her the police are there and she needs to put the dog up. So she does. And they come in and just
start ransacking them to put me in cuffs, set me
down, start berating her with questions. She had no idea what
the hell was going on. - Were you able to say a word
or two to help her understand? - Yeah, I was trying to tell her. And at the same time they
take a watch off her wrist. They let her keep the ring. They're telling her that I'm
this guy, what's my real name? Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang
across across the board. - [Lex] So she's probably terrified. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I tell her, I was like, "Look, they're gonna arraign me tomorrow. Don't come, don't come." I said, "see what's going
on, but don't show up." Of course she's there
the next morning, her and her dad, and she's
back in the back crying. They're reading off the charges. I'm under $300,000 bond, everything else. And that's it, they throw me in a cell. Meanwhile, more charges
keep coming in, you know, and it's like 10, 12
charges a day at that point. And I'm trying to call her
to make sure she's all right. - [Lex] Does it get through? - So I spent three
months in jail and during that three months she visits twice. I get like three or
four phone calls to her. Looking back now I
understand why, you know, back then it was like,
I'm the victim, you know, why doesn't she talk to me? But now I understand why
hell the girl loved me too. And then she found out I
was this piece of shit. And after a week in county
jail, two agents fly in from New Jersey. Two Secret Service guys
pulled me out of cell, looked at me and they were like,
"We got your laptop." And I was like, "Yeah." And he's like, "Well, have you
got anything on your laptop?" And I was like, "Yeah." He's like, "You're gonna
be charged for it." I was like, "I figured." And then he looks at me, he is like, "Can you do anything for us?" And I told him my exact words were, "Look, you let me get back with Elizabeth. I'll do whatever you want me to do." And he looks at me, he is like,
"We're gonna get you out." I was like, "Alright." So they let me sit there for three months (laughs)
to get a taste of it. And get me out. My sister, they have the bond
reduced to a thousand dollars. My sister pays the thousand dollars bond. By this point, she's disown me. And because I'm dating the stripper. And Denise bonds me out. The person that I call
immediately is Elizabeth, I'm out. And she's like, "I'll be there." I was like, "Okay." So that's
like 11 o'clock at night. I'm in the parking lot of the Charleston Police,
Charleston County jail, me and a Secret Service agent standing there. And Elizabeth had a friend
that owned a limo company. So she pulls up in a limo, gets out, pops the trunk, gets these
two plastic containers out that have my clothes in them,
drops all the pavement, comes over, hugs me, call me later,
gets in the car, drives off. I'm sitting there crying like a baby. Agent looks at me, "Is that
your fiance?" I'm like, "Yeah." And he is like, "I am so sorry." (laughs) And I'm like, "Yeah." (laughs) - She sounds fascinating.
- Yeah, yeah. - Pull up in a limo. (both laughing) - I had $30 to my name at that point. $30. The agent had to pay for my
hotel room that first night. So he drops me off after paying for the hotel room, buy
me something to eat. Soon as he drops me off, I
take that $30, walk a half mile to Walmart, buy a prepaid debit card so I can start back in tax fraud. Soon as I get back to the
hotel room, call Elizabeth, beg her to come see me. She comes to see me and
we talk most of the night and convince her to give me a chance. I tell her that "Hey,
everything's gonna be all right. They're gonna hire me. I'm
gonna be this big consultant." Lies lies. Just so she get back with
me and she's like, "Okay." And so we moved from
Charleston, the field office is in Columbia, South Carolina. And I'm breaking the law even before I start working with 'em. I'm breaking the law. And so they've got me in the
office, the field office. They got this big wall room in there. I'm on a laptop, outside
line, laptops hooked up to a 50 inch plasma monitor on the wall. They've got a desktop
sitting directly next to me, outside line. Two Secret Service officers in the room at all times with a South
Carolina law enforcement officer. My job is four to six hours
a day surfing the web, picking up targets, intel, teaching them how cyber crime operates,
everything else like that. For the first two weeks,
they are extremely diligent. They pay attention to
everything that's going on. Ask questions, everything else. But the problem is, is that
that gets boring real quick because I'm very fast online doing that. So they're like, "What
the hell is he doing?" And it gets tiring looking at
a guy just doing that shit. So after two weeks they get lazy and bored and they start watching
porn instead of watching me. At the same time, they've got a key logger and they've got Spectra Pro and Camtasia. Key loggers and taking
snapshots of everything that I'm doing. It go every night. It goes
on a DVD rom on a spindle. So I'm like, they're not
gonna go through that shit. So I'm like, "Fuck it." Start breaking law from inside
the Secret Service offices while they're in the room. Why not? That continues for 10 months. At the same time, the relationship with Elizabeth fell apart,
completely fell apart. - As it would. Do you have an understanding
of why it is just because of her heart got
broken 'cause there was lying? - [Brett] It was the trust. - She felt like she did a lot.
- Yeah. - To sacrifice for the
relationship you've got. - You got a woman there
that she had even said it. She had told one of her friends,
we were out having dinner one night, and this was
before I got arrested. She told one of her friends
that I was the only guy that ever asked her to stop using drugs. - Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I have to say that, that part of the story is so powerful. And then that she chose to
do it and she chose to stop. - And she told me that
there was one instance, she told me that if she didn't marry me, she'd never be married. And as far as I know,
she's never been married. - [Lex] And so it started to fall apart there?
- Yeah. Because I was that piece of shit. - Still, you didn't take a step. By the way, can I just
say how just moving it is, how honest you are, but thank you. Thank you for being that person. But at that time you,
there's still that lying. - Oh man yeah, yeah, yeah.
So it's fallen apart. She wants to start going to strip clubs and I'm like, fuck it,
why not let her, we'll go. So we start gonna strip clubs and she'll come back and be, get wasted and we'll have sex, what have you. And one night she looks
at me and she was like, she was like, "I think it'd
be funny if you got a blow job from somebody else." And that got me, that got me. I was like, to me that was
the final straw right there. I was like, she doesn't
care for me anymore or anything else like that. We'd been gonna strip clubs. So I started dating another stripper and she knew something was going on and she looks at me one day and she's like, why don't you just
tell me that it's over? And I looked at her and I
said, it's over. We're done. And I told her, I was like, "Look." I said, "whatever you want."
We were renting an apartment. I was like, whatever you
want in here, take it. I said, not only that, but
I'll make sure you got money for several months, so you're all right. And I was like, "Just leave
me, you know, leave my TV and leave, leave me some
plates and stuff. (laughs) So I go to work that day at
the Secret Service, come back that night and she's taking
everything and left a picture of herself in the bedroom on the floor. I'm like, "Okay, I guess I deserve that." - I like her. She's got- - She's cool. She was cool. (laughs) So I'm giving her a thousand dollars like every two weeks for some like this. And it gets to the point, 'cause I'm doing this tax
fraud from inside the offices. Well, the debit card companies
are pinging the cards. They start to realize that, hey, some son of a bitch is stealing
money using our debit card. So they start to shut down the cards before I can pull cash out. So I start not to have
the money to send to her. And I'm like, so she calls and she's like, look,
I have to have money. And I was like, "Well look,
I'm doing what I can." "You promised money." And I was like, "Look, if
you knew what I was doing to get this money, you
wouldn't be asking that." And she was like, "I need money. My rent's behind a month right now." And I'm like, "Your rent's
behind?" She's like, "Yeah." So I was like, "Okay." So I pick up the phone,
call the rental office and I was like, just wanna
make sure that you know, I'm sorry I'm behind on the
rent for this apartment number. Oh no, that rent's paid up three months. It's like, "Okay, hang
up. Call Elizabeth back." I was like, "You're behind on the rent." And she was like, "Yeah."
And I was like, "Funny." They just said, "You're
up on it three months." And she gets quiet and she's like, "Well, you lied to me too." And I was like, "You're right." (laughs) "I did, I did that."
- Yeah. - And I was like, "but look,
I can't do it anymore." And that's the last time I
spoke to her right there. What happens is I was breaking
law from inside the offices. I had a buddy that, his name was Sean Mims outta Los Angeles. I had taught him how
to do tax return fraud. I had told Sean I go missing, right? I go missing for three months. I told him if I ever went
missing not to contact me. And so I go missing. Then
I show back up online. First day he contacts. So he becomes a target and they
identify him pretty quickly. At that point he's set
to be arrested sometime in March of six, that's when
he's set to be arrested. Operation Rolling Stone was
the name of the operation. Nine people were supposed
to be arrested that night. So Secret Service goes and
goes and arrests this guy. They search his apartment
and don't find anything. The apartment manager
comes out and explains to him how Sean has done all
kinds of work to the apartment. As a matter of fact, he
brought in $30,000 worth of Italian tile to put in the
apartment that he is renting. And by the way, last night
he had a U-Haul out here and took out a whole shit
load of stuff. (laughs) So the Secret Service comes
back in, they look at me and they're like, "We need
you to take a polygraph." And my answer was, "I
ain't taking a polygraph." So they're like, "Well, we'll throw you
back in jail if you don't." And I was like, "Call my lawyer. Lawyer
gets me on the phone." He is like, "You don't have
to take the polygraph." I was like, "Well good. I'm not going to." He's like, "But they will
throw you back in jail." And I was like, "Don't wanna do that." And he's like, "Have you done anything?" And I was like, "Yeah." And he's like, "Well, you can
try to pass the polygraph." (laughs) I'm like, "Okay." So I looked at, I was like,
"let's take the polygraph." They asked three questions. The questions were, have
you talked to anybody? Have you been on computer
outside of the offices? Have you talked to the press? Which I was interviewing with a New York Times
writer the entire time. And then have you contacted or warned anybody about investigations? And I failed polygraph completely. So they revoked the
bond, took me back down to Charleston County, throw me into jail. Three days later, Secret
Service shows back up and pulled me out of a cell. It's Jim Ramone and Bobby Kirby. And they were, I mean,
honestly, they were good men and they gave me chances upon
chances to do the right thing. And I was not ready to do that. And Jim Ramone and Bobby's in there and Bobby, I mean Bobby was a friend. Yeah. I mean he truly was. Later on, a couple years
ago, I had a chance to... A couple years ago, I had
a chance to have lunch with a man and told him I was sorry for everything I did to him. 'cause I got him and him,
him and another agent fired and told him I was
sorry for what happened. And he told me then he is
like, we were your friends man. We were truly your
friends. So they were good. - They wanted to help.
- Yeah. - [Lex] They wanted you to be a good man. - Yeah. Yeah. What got me so bad is I told him, I was like, man, I'm trying to be a better guy. - [Lex] Yeah. - And he's like, Brett,
you always were a good guy. You just didn't know it. - People like that.
- Yeah. - We need people like that in this world. - Yeah. - You need somebody to basically believe-
- Oh man. - That you can be a good man. - So Jim Ramone pulls me out. He's the second in
charge in South Carolina. He's got the Miranda Waiver
(laughs) in front of him. Right? And he looks at me, he is
like, I'm playing hard. Bobby's over here looking distraught and you know, like a hurt dog. And Jim's like, here's the
way this is gonna work. He said, "You're going to tell me everything you've done the past six years, or I'm gonna make it my mission in life to over you and your family." And he said, "not just this case, once
you get outta prison, I'll hound you the rest of your life." Then he slides the Miranda waiver over and he is like, "Now you want to talk." And I looked at him and I
was like, "Nope." (laughs) He was like, he gets up, gets all red in the face, storms out as on the way out. He is like, "Fuck you very much." - [Lex] Yeah. - So I go back to the cell. A week later I was on
only under state charges. A week later, Judge rules, they revoke the bond improperly.
- Wow. - Oh, reinstates the bond. Nobody calls the Secret Service to tell 'em I walk out. I walk out, I was dating the stripper and I told my mom, I was like, "Well, if they're gonna fuck
me, they're going to have to find me. (laughs) - Just went on the move. - Yeah, I called this stripper girl up. I'd given her like 60K,
some shit like that. And I told her, I was like,
"Kim, I need some money." And she was like, "What?" And I was like, "Look." I said, "gimme a thousand dollars. I'll give you back $3,000 in two weeks." She was like, "Okay." So I met her in Augusta, Georgia and got the thousand from her and started driving west on I-20. No idea where to go to
anything else. Got to Dallas. There was a prepaid debit
card supplier in Dallas. Went in, walked in the
office, convinced the guy, social engineering, convinced the guy to gave me 60 prepaid debit cards, without a driver's
license, without payment. Anything else he did.
And that started the run. I ended up stealing from that
I stole like 160K profit. Used that to buy a Jeep
Cherokee and went on. The idea was to steal enough
money to bug out to Flo Anolis, Brazil, and set up shop
down there (laughs) and do it again. - [Lex] That was the dream. - That was it. That was it. So I was on the run for
four months, stole $600,000. I was in Las Vegas, Nevadane. The night before. I'd
stolen 160K out of ATMs. Went in, the next morning
I woke up, signed on to cardersmarket.com, which was ran by Max Butler, the Iceman. And there's my name US Most Wanted on it. And that gets your attention. It was my real name with the
US Most wanted beside of it. Nobody knew my real name
in that environment at all. But then they did and it was
talking about me being part of the Secret Service
Operation, AnglerPhish, everything else. So of course they're all like- - [Lex] So everybody's after you. - Oh yeah, we're gonna
get this son of a bitch. So I sat there looking at it and I was like, said it out loud. I was like, "Well, Mr. Johnson, you've made the United
States most Wanted list. What do you do now?" And I was like, "I'm going
to Disney World." (laughs) - [Lex] Literally. - Literally, literally said that out loud. So loaded up the Jeep. Drove from Las Vegas to Orlando, Florida and got the two annual passes. One to Disney World, the other
one to Universal Studios. Paid, paid for a timeshare. They were building these new timeshares right off Universal Drive. Building these brand new timeshares, paid for a timeshare nine months, cash. I was like, we take
cash. Yeah, we take cash. There's $12,900. Then it wasn't furnished. So I went down to a furniture store, bought $30,000 in furniture. They had seized a DVD collection
of mine worth 30 grand. Bought that back and proceeded to go to
Disney World every day. And that lasted about six weeks. They used a Trigger Fish
is what they use nowadays. It's called a Stingray to find me. So one day I was, it was like 10:30 in
the morning on Saturday. September 16th was the day 2006. So 2006, September 16th, I was used to the builders coming around, knocking, making sure everything was all right. So I was asleep, heard
this, knock at the door and get up, look through the keyhole. Nobody's there. You know the
pee hole, nobody's there. I was like, huh. Open the door. Step out into the hallway,
walking down the hall. It was Bobby Kirby,
another South Carolina guy and a Orlando Orange County cop. And they turn around,
they're like, "Hey Brett." I'm like, "Hey Bobby, how are you?" And he's like, "We're good. How are you?" And I'm like, "I'm fine. Would you like to come in?" And he was like, "Let's
put you in cuffs first." And I was like, "That's
probably a good idea." So he was like, He walks in. - I like those guys. - He was like, "Have you
got anything in here?" And I was like, "Yeah, there's
$120,000 in the bedroom." And he was like, "seriously?" I was like, "Yeah, that and
an AK47." His face goes white. And he's like, "You've got a rifle." And I was like, "No, I'm
kidding with you." (laughs) And he was like, he was like, "Okay." So they throw me in jail in Orange County and they gave me diesel therapy. And diesel therapy is,
it took like two weeks to transport me from
Orange County, Orlando to Columbia, South Carolina. And what happens is, is you
stop at every county jail, you possibly can go
through the processing, which is about six hours. Once you get to your bunk,
hey, time to transport you. (laughs) - [Lex] They do that on purpose. - On purpose. On purpose.
- Yes. - Wears you down mentally and
physically and everything. I get to Columbia, South Carolina now while
I was at Orange County, what happens is this inmate, because we were in federal holding. This inmate, he looks at
me, his name was Yeti. And he is like, "Hey man, you know, the only time you get
off in federal prison is the drug program." And I was like, "Well
man, I don't use drugs." And he is like, "You can find
a drug problem, can't you?" And I was like, "I can
find a drug problem." So what happens is, is
every county jail I stop at, on the way to Columbia, I tell him I'm alcoholic and cocaine. So by the time I get to
Columbia, South Carolina, they've got this paper trail of Mr. Johnson requesting help for drugs. I had hired Strom Thurman's
son as an attorney. They make me drop him because I paid for him with illegal funds. So they give me a public defender, he gets a psychological
evaluation ordered for me. So psychologist comes into
county jail, four hour interview. About halfway through, he
looks at me, he is like, "You using any type of drugs?" And I was like, yeah. He's
like, "What do you use?" "Cocaine?" "Smoker, snort." "Snort." "How much?" "An eight ball a day." "That's a lot." "Yeah." "Do you have any trouble
outta that?" "Yeah." "I can't get an erection." And he looks at me and
I'm looking at him like, 'cause I had gotten that
shit from Boogie Knights. (laughs) Yeah. So I'm like, "And finally."
I'm like, "is that right?" And he was like, "It could
happen." I was like, "Okay." So that makes it into
my pre-sentence report. So all federal inmates, probation office and prosecutor, they do this
detailed background check to basically tell the judge
how much time to give you. All right, so that drug bit with that interview makes it into the PSR. So they have interview,
I mean day of sentencing. I had pled guilty day of sentencing. The prosecutor, he stands up and this, this dude is
screaming at this point. And he's like, "Mr. Johnson's manipulated
the secret surface. He's manipulated the prosecutor." Then he points at the judge, "and he's manipulating
you today, your Honor, we insist on the upper
limits of the guidelines." Well, I had been telling
everybody in the jail that if they give me any more than 60 months, I am not staying. (laughs) So they're like, "Okay, sure." So the judge looks at me
and she's like, "I agree." I'm like, and she says, "75 months." So I looked at my lawyer and I was like, "Can you get the drug program for me?" He's like, "I don't know how I'll ask." So he stands up, "Your Honor, will you
order the drug program for Mr. Johnson." The judge says, "No, but I'll
recommend he gets evaluated." So the Secret Service had told her, "Hey, he's full of shit." - [Lex] Yeah. - So she's like, "No, but I'll recommend he gets evaluated." I looked at my lawyer and I was like, "What does that mean?" He was like, "You're
probably not gonna get it." And I was like, "How soon
can you get me to the camp?" And he was like, "Well,
if you don't appeal, I can get you there pretty quick." My exact words were, "Fuck the
appeal, get me to the camp. I'll take it from there." He looks at me like, I'm the
biggest idiot in the world. I get sent to 'cause you
can get a camp recommended. I have friends, family
members look for camps that don't have a fence around them. And we settle on Ashland, Kentucky. Six weeks later I'm at Ashland, Kentucky and pull up there, 14 foot
fence, raise a wire on top. And I'm like, I don't climb
fences. So like go in. First question I ask
is, are there any jobs outside of the fence? And he was like, guard's like, "Well you can work in
the national forest." And I'm like, "No, I'll die out there." And he was like, "Well
you could do landscaping." I'm like, "I could run
a weed eater." (laughs) So two days later I walk
into the landscaping office and the cop, this is this genius of some of these people and institutions,
the cop behind his desk, the entire wall is a blown
up photo of the compound and the outlying area. So I can literally sit there
and plot where I'm going. Alright. My dad, I hadn't spoken
to that man in years. And he shows up at my sentencing and stands up in front of the judge. And he is like, "Your Honor, I wanna make
sure Brett gets a good start. He can live with me when he
gets out. Everything else." Looking back, the man meant that. And I just thought it
was bullshit at the time. So he starts to visit me in
prison. I mean, yeah, in prison. He starts to visit and about
the third visit in, he looks at me, he is like, "I've been reading about you online." I was like, "Yeah." He is like, "Yeah." He's like, "That's a
lot of money you made." And I was like, "Yeah." He's like, "You think you can teach
somebody how to do that?" (laughs) And I'm like, so what I used to say, and it again that it's this
thing of, really coming to terms with things. What I used to say was, is
I thought my dad was back in my life and that he
was just trying to use me. Alright. The truth of the matter is that my dad hadn't
really seen me except in that frame of crime, you
know, being that criminal with my mom, everything else. And I really think that's
how the man was trying to communicate with me. - He wanted to connect with you
in the places where you love or you're interested in. - [Brett] Right. - Where your addiction is essentially. - Right, and what I did
is I manipulated the man into helping me escape. So I agreed to teach
him how to do tax fraud. And in return, he had
the only money he had to his name, he had $4,000 cash. So I manipulated him and he given me that. And to dropping me off a
change of clothes, a cell phone and a driver's license. The only driver's license he had was my driver's license, Brett Johnson. So I was at the camp for, I
don't know, six, eight weeks. And the hardest worker that
landscaping had ever seen. (laughs) At one point the cops
got me on a mountainside with a broom sweeping off the mountain. I'm like, "Yeah, we'll
do that. Absolutely." - [Lex] You're building
trust of the guys there. - Yeah. Working my ass off. Yeah. And at the end, six weeks I take off and I lasted, I think two, three
weeks, something like that. US Marshals, I made it a hundred take off.
- You escaped. - Escaped.
- Escaped. Escaped US Marshals. They're canvassing a three state area. They find me, I think 250 miles away. It's like Lexington, Kentucky. They find me in Lexington because I had to use my real driver's license. I had a laptop, I had prepaid debit cards and I had stolen identity information. And kind of what the way it
got me was I had dyed my hair this flaming red, you
know, I had this deep tan. I didn't look anything like myself. And I was at a hotel, had the
curtains open, saw this guy. I was on the laptop, saw
this guy walk by, he walks by the window and he stops. And then he backs up. He looks inside, he knocks on the window. I look up at him, he is like, "You." I was like "Me." And he's like, "You." Then he pulls out this badge
(laughs) and he points at it. He's like, and then he
points at the door, "Now." So I was like, "Oh, okay." So I open up the door and he
is like US Marshal Service. So they arrest me. - [Lex] How did they track you down? - They canvassed that area. They talked to every hotel,
everything else I had- - It's like a traditional,
like they were traditional. - Police work is what it was. - So it wasn't like from the internet, they kind
of got something. I dunno. - Just straight good, good,
good, good police work. - [Brett] Parcels are outstanding.
Yeah, everything they do. So they arrest me. I go to a, I'm initially held at a county
jail in Moorhead, Kentucky. And that man, that was one
hell of an experience there. But then I'm transferred
after sentencing on that. So sentencing, here's the weird thing. So I spent like, I think two or three months at the county
jail in Morehead, Kentucky. Get sentenced at my sentencing,
it happens so quickly after the initial sentencing that they use the exact
same pre-sentence report. The report that's got all
that drug shit in there. So at my sentencing prosecutor's there, Secret Service is there. Judge me and my attorney,
prosecutor stands up. He's like, "Your Honor, we would like it if you would consider that
when Mr. Johnson was arrested, he had a laptop, he had all
this information with him. Looks like he was engaged in
identity theft, yet again." Judge looks at the prosecutor, says "No." Says, "Hey, if you were gonna charge him with it, you should have
charged him with it. I'm only considering the escape." Then he looks at me and he's
like, "Mr. Johnson," he said, "it looks like by you keeping
your mouth shut right now, you're really saving yourself
a pretty serious charge." And my response was, "Yes, your Honor." And he was like, "Then he opens
up the pre-sentence report and he's fingering through and he's like, "It also looks like before you got involved
with all these drugs, you were a pretty good citizen." I was like, "Yes, your Honor." And he's like, "so here's
what I'm gonna do." He said, "I'm gonna give you
18 months on the escape." I was like, "Okay." He said, I'm also gonna give you, no, it was 15 months on the escape. He said, "I'm gonna give you
15 months on the escape." He said, "and I'm also going to order the drug program for you." I was like, "Yes, your honor." So the drug program gives you a year off and it gives you six
months and halfway house. So by escaping, I got outta prison three months earlier than what
I should have gotten outta. - So the original thing about drugs worked in long.
- It worked. - Now the interesting thing with that, and this is the best
lie I ever told, honestly, the best lie I ever told, I spent eight months in solitary
confinement. Eight months. And that's an experience (laughs) because you ain't got no books
for the first month or so. Then they give you a King James Bible.
- Bible. - Yeah and then-
- For a month not books. This is a pretty small-
- Six by nine room. - Six by nine.
- Yeah. - No books.
- No books. No paper, no pen, no pencil. - You are alone with your mind. - [Brett] You got a mat, a toilet. - What's that like? - It's, you sleep as much as you can. You're sleeping 16, 18 hours
a day is what you're doing. - Were you thinking about
even just going back to like Elizabeth-
- Oh, you go through all that. The whole thing through all that. Every bit.
- Your mom too? - Yeah, you're going through
every single bit of that. And so you're supposed
to get out an hour a day. Law says you're supposed
to get out an hour a day. That's the law. That's not the
way things actually happen. What actually happens is, is you're lucky to get out an hour a week. You take a shower twice
a week and that's it. You get a phone call once a month. - - [Lex] Oh. So you
don't get to see nature. - Don't see anything. You're
in solitary, all right? And it takes about a week. The
first week is the roughest. You're bouncing off the
walls that first week. 'Cause you can't sleep,
can't do anything else. Then you start to adapt
to it after a while. When that book does arrive,
you're happy as hell to have it. I'm well versed (laughs)
in the King James Bible. So you're happy to have it. Then finally, you get
other books that come in from that point. Spent eight months that, and they send me out to a real prison. Big Spring Texas, West Texas. Where have you been out there? - [Lex] No. - Man, I could tell Prairie Dogs and tarantulas.
- Yeah. - Is what it is. It got no kidding. It gets so hot, that warnings come on the radio telling you not
to drive on certain streets because they're melted. That's Big Spring.
- Oh. - So if you've seen the
movie, "From Dusk till Dawn", the opening scene is in Big Spring, Texas.
- It's hot. - Yeah, very hot. So, and that's where I find
out what a real prison is. And it's not ran by guards.
Prisons are ran by inmates. And that's a fact. So you're met at the door by whatever race you are is what happens. So Big Spring is a converted
Air Force compound. It's a disciplinary prison. So you get the bad guys that are in there. So I get, (chuckles) I
go through processing and I'm walking up to the unit and I met at the door by
a guy named Nick Sandifer. He's the treasurer of
the Aryan Brotherhood. And first question out of his mouth is anymore
white guys come in? And, I didn't know, I was like, "Hell, I don't know, four or five." Next question is, "What
are you in here for?" My answer was, 'cause I'm
like, I ain't got no worries. My answer was, "Computer
crime." Smiled at him. (laughs) And it turns out wrong thing to say, because computer crime
is not credit card theft or hacking or any bullshit like that. Computer crime in prison
is child pornography. So tell him that he looks at
me like I'm a piece of shit. Goes and gets his buddies. They circle around, "What
are you in here for?" - I like how the Aryan
Brotherhood has like lines. They're like-
- Oh yeah. (laughs) This child porn.
- That's it. That's the bad guy. - They circle around, they're like, "What'd you say you're in here for?" So I'm sitting there trying
to explain it to 'em. They're like, "You know,
you tell a good story. You still said this." - Now computer crime basically, really does mean usually
child pornography? - In prison, yeah. - [Lex] Yeah, yeah. And what you see, and that's
one of the things you find out that the guys that are going
in there for child porn, they will tell 'em it's credit card theft.
- Right. - So yeah.
- Right. They've learned. - So I'm that guy that's-
- But you also don't, I mean for people who are just listening to this, you don't exactly look like the typical computer hacker. (Brett laughs) - That's true. That's true
(laughs) that's very true. But I don't look like
the pedophile either. - That's right. That's right. But it's like, it doesn't
make it seem like you're, I mean, I guess you're not wearing
a hoodie and you're not like Emo dark, you know? - The way it actually works in prison, they won't attack
you until they know, all right? So they have to see paperwork, which now in federal prison you
don't get transported with paperwork because of that. So they have to see paperwork or a guard will tell them
what you're in there for. Guards will tell who the pedophiles are. So none of the guards told
'em that I was anything. So for the first month they think I am, but they're not doing anything 'cause they don't know for sure. At the end of the first
month, I'd been talking to Kevin Poulsen over at Wired
Magazine about Max Butler. He does an article about that
shows up in Wired Magazine. So at the end of the first month, Wired Magazine hits compound front cover. That's all the story.
- That saved you. - You would think. You
would think it's saved me. So I'm reading the article.
Really happy about it. So what happens is, is
four o'clock is mail call, four o'clock's a standup count nationwide after four o'clock is your mail call, they hand out all the mail for the day. So the mail comes, I get the magazine, I'm like reading through it. I'm like, well shit, I'm good to go. Then it says Brett Johnson,
"Secret Service informant," in the article. - [Lex] So you're now a snitch? - Which is right up there
with the pedophiles. (laughs) So we go to dinner after that. At dinner, you can hear
it, you can hear the chat. We gotta snitch it. We,
I think it's that guy. There we go.
- Yeah. - Warden next day shuts
down the entire compound. Calls me into his office. They got security there,
he got the counselors there and everything else. Warden looks at me, he is like, "Did you give an interview
to Wired Magazine?" I'm like, "Yeah." He's like, "Do you not know
they will kill you in here?" He was like, "Do you feel safe?" Well I know if you tell
'em you don't feel safe, they transport you, transport
you means another eight months in solitary confinement. You start to see shit in solitary after a while.
- Yeah. So I'm like, "No, I'm not gonna do that." So I'm like, "completely
safe." He was like, "Look." He's like, "if anybody says anything to you immediately come to us because they'll fucking kill you." So they do a locker search, try to confiscate the magazines, they can't. The next day I walk into the unit, there's Nick Sanderford laying on his bunk magazine wide open reading it. I'm like, oh shit. Walked up to him. I was like, "Hey Nick,
what are you doing?" He is like, "Oh, doing some reading." I was like, "Anything interesting?" He is like, "It's getting there." (laughs) I was like, "Let me save you the trouble." Take the magazine, turn
it over to the page. I was like, "Right there is
what you're looking for." He was like, "Man, I already knew." I was like, "Do we have a problem?" And he looks at me, he is like, "Is anyone on the compound you told on?" I was like, "No." He's like, "Until someone gets here
you snitched on we're okay." I was like, "Okay." He's like, "But I need you
to do something for me." All right, so in federal
prison, you gotta have a job. Everybody works. Doesn't matter what you
do, but you gotta work. I got a job in education
teaching a lit class every Wednesday, 6:00 to 8:30 PM lit and had every area on
the compound signs up for the lit class. Had a couple guards every
now and then popped in and did we teach lit? No, we taught fraud
every Wednesday, (laughs) 6:00 to 8:30 PM and that's how
I didn't get my ass beaten. And my other job, I
had two jobs with them. The other job, you get to
the point, it's weird, man. You get to the point, people
walking off the bus, you know, immediately two groups of people, you know who the bank robbers are, immediately just by them walking off the bus, you're like, "That mother fucker is a bank robber." And you know who the
pedophiles are immediately. So my job as the white guy was to approach the white pedophiles
and have a conversation and the conversation was basically, "Hey, don't know what you're in here for. Don't care what you're in for, but if you got some sort
of fucked up charge, you need to tell me. If you tell me everything's
gonna be all right. If you don't tell me, you
see those guys over there. If you start to associate with 'em or they start to talk to you and then they find out you're in here on something, they're going to kill you." - [Lex] And what are
the things, pedophile. - Pedophile, rapist, anything that harms children, harms
women, anything like that. - So it's like the mob, there's rules, there's an ethical code. Even if you have the
division between races on all that, you still
have these lines drawn. - And what that looks-
- And this hierarchy too. - Very much so. And what that looks like
in prison, it depends on the security class that
you're in, what level prison. But at that prison, what that looked like was you're not
allowed to talk to anybody. You're not allowed to watch television. You can go to the library. You don't associate with
anyone except your own type. If you do anything like
this, we will kill you. If someone wants to extort
you, we will do that too. And you won't tell on
us or we'll kill you. So that's the way that
works at that point. - [Lex] And everybody quickly learns this. - Quickly. Quickly. And so typically the guys would say, I just wanna do my own time. That would be the line. And it's like, okay, don't
mess with him. Alright? Every now and then
you'd have somebody lie. And that would come with
those types of consequences. I got to see, while I was
there, saw two people murdered, went through three prison riots and through my entire tenure
in prison, saw four suicides. The people who got killed, so we had a outside, you
had this track, a third of a mile track, you
walk at counter clockwise and inside of the track you
got two handball courts. So of an evening. It happened both times. All of us would be walking,
you know, doing our exercises. And at the top of the key, like a flock of birds, you'd
see all the inmates start to migrate down toward the gate. So the first time you see that, you see that migration, you
look up in the distance and that one inmate's
got another inmate down and he is just hammering his
head right into the pavement. Like that right there. Well guards don't stop that
because a guard may get hurt. So a guard is 15 minutes
coming out to stop that until everything's over. By that point, the guy
doesn't have a head. They shut the compound down
and this is what happens. So you shut the entire compound down. They make two lines of the inmates. And what happens is the inmate walks into a room, they shut the door behind. The inmate guard asks 'em two questions. First question is, did you see
anything? The answer is no. Second question is, if
you had seen anything, would you say anything? Answer is no. Guard then
says, "Get the fuck out." And that's it. Anybody that stays in any longer than that is automatically suspect. So there was one incident, I
remember this Hispanic guy, he's in there for a few
minutes and everybody's like, what's going on? (laughs) So his people then call him over, explain to us what went on?
- Yeah. - And it happens like that. - It's fascinating that because you talked about
the network of trust in the cyber crime community.
- Oh yeah. - And here's a network of trusts-
- Absolutely. - In the prison crime community. - [Brett] Absolutely. - And trust.
- Trust matters. - Trust drives everything
at the end of the day. The riots that I went
through, the first riot, man, you're scared to
death, scared to death. You know, you've got the cops dressed up in the ninja turtle outfits. You've got the rubber bullets, the tear gas canisters, all that crap. You got the inmates that are
raising hell, scared to death. The second riot, you calm down. Second riot, you start to
notice this is racial riot. This is typically, and almost always it's
Hispanics and African Americans. - [Lex] So you you get to detect what is the motivation for
the riot, what's the reason? - That's exactly right. - [Lex] And that gives you some calm. - That's exactly right. So second riot, you start to notice this, Hey man, this ain't me,
this ain't our group. - [Lex] Yeah. - Third riot, no shit. Third riot, you lay in your bunk (laughs) and you let 'em wage war all around you. And every now and then you
have an inmate, they'll run up to you and they'll point to a locker and say, is that your locker? And if you tell 'em yes,
they leave it alone. If you say it's not my
locker, they'll break into it and steal everything out
of it and go from there. And that's what happens. - [Lex] So you did your
time for five years? - Five and a half. - [Lex] Five and a half. You made it out. - Made it out, I went through the, I told you it was a good
lie that I told, I went through the residential
drug abuse program. It's a nine month intensive therapy. And the way I got to that, this counselor at Big Spring, he bought
this, he wanted inmates to be educated, he was a really good guy. So he wanted inmates to be educated. He got a discount on a
game theory class set. So he gets all these
disc good and everything and he's asking, does anybody on the compound know
anything about game theory? And somebody says, if anybody
does, it'll be Brett Johnson. (laughs) So he comes up to me one day at my bunk, he's like, "Are you Brett
Johnson?" I was like, "Yeah." He was like, "Do you know
anything about game theory?" And I was like, "Yes I do." (both laughing) So I start rattling off prisoners' dilemma and everything else. He's like, "Will you teach a class?" So I start teaching that. I start teaching inmates, public speaking and to make friends with this counselor. So it gets time where I'm supposed to be transferring out
to this drug program that they only had in Fort Worth. And the transfers are taking
like four or five months. And that's four or five
months I could be out free. So I went up to him one day and I was like, "Look."
His name was Keely. I was like, "Look man." I said, "is there any way that I can get transferred
out any sooner?" And he looks at me, he is like,
"Brett, I cannot help you." And I was like, "I appreciate that, thank you so much for even trying." So he said that a week later I'm on a bus by going to Fort Worth.
- Got it? - Yeah.
- I love it. - So it was a nine month program, 24 hours a day of cognitive
behavioral therapy. It had nothing to do with drugs. It was all peer study
stuff and CBT training. And honestly, it's the best thing that could ever happen, truly is. - Oh, that part. What was the thing that
changed you as a man? Is it the solitary
confinement? Was it the years? Was it losing the people you loved? Or was it that behavioral therapy? - It's a combination,
man. It's a combination. So my sister disowns me. The only person I had
in my life, I mean, me and my sister, that's it. You know, I mean, yeah, I loved Elizabeth. I love my wife now, but you
know, it's me and my sister. We went through all that shit together. So Denise disowns me,
she doesn't talked to me for an entire year when
all this stuff happens. And after I get arrested on the escape, she ends
up driving seven hours to come see me, to tell me she loves me and I don't see her again
for five and a half years. Yeah.
- Yeah. - So that's really the first turnaround. Took me two and a half years in prison to accept responsibility. Two and a half. - That was amazing that she did that.
- Yeah. - Because she drove down.
- Yeah. - [Lex] She did that. - Yeah, she's something. She's something. She saw me for 10 minutes,
tell me she loves me and then I don't see her. - [Lex] Planted the seed. (laughs) - Yeah. Yeah. - But yeah, you had time
to think over those years. - Yeah, took two and a
half years to realize that, you know, I didn't commit crime because of stripper
girlfriends or wives or family. I committed it 'cause
I wanted to, chose to. And that's the first turnaround. Second turnaround is like
the CBT training, you know, that it didn't really hit
while I was in prison. You know, I went through it
and they ingrained it in you, but until you choose to make
it work, it doesn't work. So I got out in 2011, didn't
wanna break the law. Did not. And I was under three years probation, couldn't touch a computer. I had a job offer from Deloitte to run a cyber crime office in the UK. Which that was a no,
now you're not moving. And that's a computer idiot. (chuckles) - [Lex] Yeah. - Then had a job offer from
no, before a fishing company. Couldn't take that. Got to where I was trying
to apply for fast food jobs. That's a computer. Can't touch that. Okay? Then what about a waiter's position? Well, that's a computer and
access to credit cards. Idiot. Can't touch that either. So literally could not
get a job, could not. Doing food stamps. I had a roommate that
paying half the rent. They tell you when you leave prison to get a job in something you care about and you won't recidivate
couldn't get a job. And what I had was a cat
(laughs) it's a Monster, the cat that was the cat's name.
- That's a good name. - Yeah, I had enough money
to feed that little guy and didn't have money to buy
toilet paper for the apartment. I was on Panama City Beach. - [Lex] How long were
you living like this? - It was a steady decline 'cause remember I taught my dad how to commit tax fraud.
- Yeah. - So he bankrolled a lot
of that until he couldn't. And then from there it's
like, what the fuck do you do? So I didn't wanna go into
computer crime at all. And I ended up shoplifting
toilet paper, man. Shoplifting toilet paper. - Just like for the basics?
- Yeah. - The basics of survival. - So about the same time, I
had a friend that (laughs) this guy, I had been dating the same type of women I had been dating. You know these-
- Yeah. - You know the unhealthy ones, the hot unhealthy ones.
- Yes. - And (laughs)
- Love. - Yeah.
- That's how that works. - Yeah, so I had a
friend post an ad for me on Plenty of Fish. And this woman responds,
my wife, she responds. And the pictures I had taken were these prison type pictures. You know, the serious like-
- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - They were there. And she sends me a message
of, "Why aren't you smiling?" And my response was,
"That is my happy face." So we start talking and we started dating and she's that second saving thing man. I ended up moving in with
her. I was going broke. I was about to get kicked
outta the apartment and everything else. And she didn't say it,
but I think she knew it and moved in with her and I got a job. And the job, I got my probation officer to let me have a cell phone. I was going through Craigslist. This guy was advertising for
landscaping. Called him up. His name was Dustin Ramos, called him up and he is like, "Come
on down, talk to me." So he was running this business. Him and his brother were out of his house. So I'm sitting there talking
to him for about 20 minutes. He looks at me, he is like,
"Can I ask you a question?" I was like, "Yeah." He's like, "Are you on the
run or something?" (laughs) So I'm like, "No, why?" And he is like, "Well, you just don't look like the kind of guy that do this." So I told him, I was like, "This is who I am, is what I've done." And he looks at me, he is like, "Man, I gotta think about that." So he tells me, go on
home. That was a Friday. Sunday evening. He gives me a call and
he was like, "Brett." He is like, "If I hire you,
will you actually work?" And I told him, I was like, "Dustin, if you'll gimme a job, I promise I'll work my ass off." And he is like, "Show up six o'clock." I was like, "Alright." So my job was to push a
lawnmower 10 hours a day, five days a week for $400
a week and busted my ass. I hit it so hard, I had
come in end of a night and pass out, wake up the
next morning and hit it again. And it got to the point he ended up, this dude ended up offering me to come in, a partner with his business. His brother dropped out and by that point, I'd learned everything on
the business and everything. And he was like, you know, "If you'd like to come
in, I'll cut you in half." And I was like, "Dustin,
I can't do it, man." Because I wasn't making any money wanted, he didn't wanna pay me anymore until, you know, he was able to do more. And I thought I found another
job doing something else. And in a speech, I say, it got cold and the grass stopped growing. The truth of the matter was, is I thought I found another job. A guy was offering to pay me
$1,500 a week doing the sales for oil rig training, was what it was. And I accepted the job. I quit working for Dustin and the guy, before he even offered me the job, I told him what I, you
know, my criminal history 'cause I was required to do that. So I was supposed to start work. Well, he calls me and
tells me he can't hire me. So I'm outta work and Dustin's already hired
somebody else by that point. So I can't go back with him. And I'm that guy again,
man, it's important for me to show value in a relationship. All right? So Michelle
was the only one working. I'm like, I gotta do something.
And I get it in my head. I was like, you know
what, if nothing else, I can just bring food in the house. She was only making that. I think, I mean we were headed hard, you know, it was just her working. And I was like, and nothing else. I can bring food in the house and get on the dark web, (laughs) get some stolen credit cards.
- Yeah. - Start ordering food. Well,
it gets worse than that. She's got two sons there, so I'm like, well they need clothes. So he starts stealing clothes
and it continues like that. I get arrested, I get
arrested on a food order and Michelle didn't know what I was doing. So she had been to work and she was coming back from work. I get arrested and I'm like,
they let me make a phone call and I call her and I was like, "Come to police station.
I've been arrested." And she shows up and she didn't
know I'd been doing that. My probation officer,
of course he didn't know or anything else at my
sentencing for that. Probation officer was there,
prosecutor, the judge, US Marshals, Michelle and me. Michelle stands up and she tells the judge
that I'm a better dad to her kids than their actual father is. And by that point I'm crying. Probation officer stands
up and he was like, "We think Mr. Johnson's a good guy. We think this is a one time thing." Prosecutor says the same thing. Judge sentences me to one year. Probation officer stands back up and he is like, "Judge, if you can give Mr. Johnson a year and a day, he can get the good time and get back to his family center." So the judge amends a
sentence to a year and a day. So I served 10 months,
they send me back to Texas and that's when I find out
that Michelle didn't need me for what I could give her. She just wanted me for
me that entire time. She stands by me the entire
time I do my 10 months get out, we get married after that
and they kill probation so I can touch a computer. They tell you, they tell you, (laughs) they were like, you know, "Inmates, a felon. If nothing
else, he can sell cars." Well it turns out you can't. You can sell cars if you're a drug dealer, if you're the guy that
steals all the money in people's information, no fuck no. You can't get a job selling
cars. So can't get a job. Cannot. And to this day, Lex, I
know what my triggers are. I know what it would take to get me back into committing crime. So, and I knew I'd go
so far at that point. So I looked at Michelle and I was like, "Lemme see what I can do." Signed on to LinkedIn, reached out to this FBI super cop named Keith Mularski outta the Pittsburgh office. He was involved with my arrest and some associates and everything else and sent him a message. And the message was, you know, hey, I respect everything you did. Think you did a great job. By
the way. I'd like to be legal. And dude responded within two hours, two hours he gives me
references, advice, takes me in under his wing,
everything else like that. And from that point, man, it was the head of the identity theft
council did the same thing. Card not present group hires me to speak, Microsoft hires me to consult with them. And the Microsoft hire
established enough trust in the industry that I was
all right from that point. - So now you're helping in
many ways, fight the very guy that you used to be.
- Yeah. - So big picture advice,
given that you were that guy, how do we
fight cyber crime today and in the next 5 years, 10
years, 20 years, 50 years? What advice do you have to
individuals, to companies, to governments of what
and also to Elizabeth? (Brett laughs) Like the humans, human
beings that love, that live, that are friends with cyber criminals. - There's so many lessons
to really be had from that. You know, to me, the lesson,
one of the big lessons to me is you can't serve two masters. You know, if you're that
guy that is committing crime or that person that's
addicted or you're in love with somebody that's addicted or has that they don't love you, they love that addiction that comes first. It's always gonna come first. So you have to realize
that, you have to know when you gotta know when
to cut somebody off, when to end something that knowing that they're not gonna change
until they decide to change. At the same time, you gotta realize that the only reason I was
able to turn my life around is because people took that chance on me.
- Yeah. - You know, that's really the only reason. - [Lex] They believe that
there's a good person in there. - Yeah, if Mularski hadn't responded, if I hadn't had my sister,
my wife, these companies that initially gave me that chance, my ass would be back
in prison for 20 years. I have no doubt about
that at all. Alright. So you have to realize
that, you know, cyber crime, a lot of companies that I talked to, they don't really understand the, or appreciate that networking aspect that that trust aspect of how
criminals establish trust with each other, how they work together. A lot of companies think
that it's a single player that's out victimizing them. And when you really break
down how cyber crime operates, that you've got a group of individuals that are working together to
hit you, but not only hit you, but they share and exchange
information freely. You know, companies don't do that. You've got privacy concerns, you've got competitive edge
concerns, everything else. Companies don't share
information across the board, like criminals do, criminals do that. You have to appreciate that. You have to understand that big statistic, that 90% of their attacks
use known exploits. It's not the stuff we don't know about. It's the shit we do know about, we're not doing anything about. - So the way to defend
against cyber crime is like there's a lot of low hanging fruit that you should fix.
- That a lot of that. A lot of that. - So a lot of basic stuff
that's already vulnerabilities. Update the system security. - Yeah. Now that doesn't take care of SolarWinds.
- Right? - Or CNAP or anything like that. It doesn't but those instances, I mean that okay, that's a big
instance. (chuckles) But I mean it is. - But in the full spectrum of-
- Right. - Especially in the future
because there's more and more companies that are coming online.
- Right. - They're becoming digital and
that it's just more and more and more and those vulnerabilities
in terms of human nature. So for social engineering and
the actual outdated systems, all of it, some of it I guess is the, I mean you're exceptionally good at this is educating on the social engineering side-
- Right. - Is educating people in companies that- - You've got to do that. And companies have to, you know, I made that point that they never
report to law enforcement. That's companies and individuals.
- Yeah. - You know, I've worked
with Fortune 50 companies that will not press charges. Instead, they'll have that insider or that criminal sign, an
NDA, they'll pay 'em off and we won't mention this shit anymore. You have to press charges, you have to report, you have to raise the awareness of everyone in the group. It's that idea and I've
talked about that before of understanding your place
in that cyber crime spectrum. The way a criminal will victimize
you depends on who you are and what you do as a
person and as a business. So you have to understand that
design security around that. You know, we've got 7,500
security companies out there. A whole lot of them
are snake oil salesman. A lot of 'em, it's going to tell you that we're the one stop solution. But you're not, you're not,
you're a tool. Alright? And you may have a very good tool, but it's not the only tool that's needed to protect against the
attacks that are out there. And we have to be open and
honest about that kind of stuff. We're not. - So I guess defense is
not just like one tool. It's a process of just like a diversity and just constant educating people.
- Absolutely. - So it's the social
side, it's constantly, 'cause there's so many
probably attack vectors in terms of the software that you have. - If you look at it, that attack surface. You can't plug everything. It's too damn large to plug everything. But you can do the best
job you can possibly do. But it takes a variety of
tools to do that. Alright. The idea and ARCOS is big about that. But the idea is to take the cost of fraud to the fraudster so high
that they basically try to pick another target, alright? And that's the idea that
you want, you want it to be not worth the criminal's
time to hit your company. - What about white hat hacking? So like, you know, hacking for
good sort of testing systems and then giving companies
the vulnerabilities as you find that. - I think it's outstanding. I do. I think that, I think pen
testing white hat stuff is outstanding, I truly do. I think that that you have to. It has to be tempered with
what is reality as well though. All right? You know, we've got a whole
industry of of people who try to sell our fit wallets that I don't know of many our fit hackers out
there on the criminal side, to be honest with you. (laughs) - Yeah, so some of it's just like a psychological safety blanket that's not actually
providing any protection. By the way you wrote on
LinkedIn something about ID.me. (Brett laughs) What is it? Why is it a problem? I was going down a rabbit hole with-
- I was wondering if you were gonna mention that. I guess I was partially responsible for them losing an $86 million contract. - What was the contract with?
- IRS. - [Lex] The government. So what is it? - So ID.me is an identity... Okay backtrack, ID.me
is a marketing company that wants to say they're an
identity verification company. - [Lex] I just wanna bring
this up to see you get angry. (Brett laughs) - Okay. I'll tell you what my issue is. - [Lex] Yeah. - My issue is so-
- So yeah. Yeah. It's a company that's
used for authentication by the IRS, I guess- - Well IRS, Social
Security administration VA at one point 23, state
unemployment offices, few other services. - So I guess the idea is
that you would be able to unlock your account
or authenticate yourself as a human being by using your face or something like that-
- Yeah. - Or private information. - They've got a tiered
system by the verification. They've got a free system, which is questionable
where you submit an ID and it's been shown,
several bypasses been shown. And I don't wanna talk about
their security horribly bad because I wanna be
honest, there are bypasses for a lot of security systems out there.
- Right. - All right? The issue that I have with ID.me is that their policies are
somewhat questionable. I don't care if you're a private company that has those policies in place, but if you're a government agency and you as a citizen are
entitled to a benefit or a service of that government agency and then the government agency forces you to give up your complete identity profile to a private company and then
that private company uses that profile for marketing purposes to further profit, things like that. I have a huge issue with that. I don't care if you're a
private company that does that. I just don't think that citizens need to be forced into doing that in order to get a benefit or service that they're entitled to.
- Yeah. - So that's my big issue. - So I mean, given how much value, how much we talked about
the value of identity, you don't think that should
be handed over lightly? - No, absolutely not. And who would've thought
that Brett Johnson would ever become a privacy advocate? (laughs) But here I am. (Lex chuckles) I mean, it's just people don't understand or appreciate the value of who they are. You know? And certainly you've
got a host of companies, ID.me means not the only one, but you've got some of these companies that say, well, we strip out
the PII of the individual, we're just using the biometrics and the sites they're
visiting and things like that. That's identity, you can still ping that one unique individual
out of all using that information, stripping
out the PII you can still ping who that individual is. - So having lived a life
of crime for many years, I'm sure you've connected
indirectly to a large number of very dangerous people. - [Brett] Indirectly
and directly. (laughs) - Yeah. But the network indirectly
is is even larger, right? - [Brett] Oh yeah. Oh yeah. - I apologize for this
question, are you ever worried for your life or your wellbeing? Like having seen a world
that's really dangerous in ways that operates in the shadows. - You know, like I said,
when we started ShadowCrew and started that initial
cyber crime business, that world, violence wasn't
there, it came in later. Now violence is inherent in the system to do the Monty Python
bit, it's part of it. - [Lex] Yeah, the mob, the mafia are now part
of this whole thing. - Cartels are part of it.
- Yeah. - Drugs are inherently in intertwined in cyber crime marketplaces
because of the profit potential. And with that comes a
lot of violence as well. - Yeah, the cartels have
already brought the violence that they're good at
from the 20th century. - [Brett] Absolutely. Absolutely. - Into the technology of the 21st century. - Now do I worry about that? It's interesting that my
family worries about that. All right? I think I may be just too involved in it to appreciate that type of danger. But my family worries about that. They do. Do I think it's a possibility? I'm the guy that says
what needs to be said. I've built my trust in this industry by not being scared of
calling out companies and individuals and not being scared of targeting criminals or criminal groups. - Your honesty as a
human being emotionally and intellectually is really
refreshing, it's a gift. Thank you, thank you for doing that. Is there advice you can give to young people today about life? You broke many rules. All the rules. Some rules should be broken. So if you look at somebody
young today in high school and college thinking how they
can break the rules legally and live a life that's
something they could be really proud of, what would you say? - The biggest lesson I've learned? You want your life to be one
where you're helping people and not hurting people. And that really hit me
the first time I walked into Quantico. You know, that's, you
see the brightest minds in the United States who
give up a lot of money, the opportunities, a lot of money because they believe in helping people. Where I spent a career just
hurting and harming individuals. That's a hell of a lesson.
And I'm glad I'm there. But I would tell people out
there, you know, it's fine to want money, it's fine to do that. It's fine to test systems, it's fine to circumvent the rules if
you're not breaking the law. It's fine to do all that. I
like doing that, all right? But if you've got the mindset,
if you can just adhere to the mindset of helping
people and not hurting people, I think you'll be all right
at the end of the day. - What gives you, again,
(chuckles) given the dark web, given all the dangers out there, what gives you hope about the future? Looking into 5, 10 years,
50 years, I mean, hope for human civilization. If we do all right, if we
make it out of this century, what do you think would be the reason? - [Brett] What would be, well,
that's a damn good question, because I mean, we got a
lot of bad stuff going on. - We've got a lot of reasons.
- A lot of reasons. - If asked you the other question of how do you think human
civilization will destroy itself? I'm sure you have a lot
of answers. (laughs) - Oh yeah. You know what, what gives me hope is you see people working together. COVID has have been a little bit different because I think that
too many people wanted to play politics with it. - That's been the heartbreaking
thing about COVID, is it's in many ways pull people apart. I mean, because a virus involves kind of being afraid of each other because, I mean, that was a scary thing. People talk about pandemics in that way, that you're afraid of other humans. That is the most terrifying thing. It's not the destructive
nature of what it does to your body, it's just
that it pulls people apart. And then you realize how fundamental that human connection is to humans. - Absolutely. Absolutely. But you know, as human beings,
when things really get bad, when things really get
bad, we do tend to respond and group together, we do that. - There's injustice.
- Yeah. - We see it, we rise up. - I wake up in the morning
and I watch Fox News and CNN, so I can be
pissed off at everyone. (both laughing) All right? - Division, the outrage,
they're really feeding. They want you to be angry. - Yeah, that's what causes me to spare and what I think that,
you know, we just need to. Elizabeth was very good. She taught me one hell
of a lesson, because before I met her, I was a news hound. News was beyond all the time,
a couple channels of it, and she was the woman who
didn't watch the news at all. And I didn't understand
that back then, man. But now I do, you know, now
I'm like, it's pretty smart. You know, (laughs) don't need to listen to that bullshit as it is. - That's why I love reading history books. I feel like that's the
right perspective on take on modern times, you know? How will this time be written about in the history books?
- Yeah. - And react to that. The daily ups and downs of the outages, which is getting worse and
worse in terms of how quick the turnaround is in terms of the news. - I'll tell you what, I'm sitting here. I appreciate you talking to me. I do. Because, you know, I'm talking about that relationship and everything. It's really been this kind of realization for me on a lot of things. So I really appreciate
you asking those questions and everything. Me being able to talk about that. - I love it that you value, first of all, you're self-aware
how important love is in a human being's life. (laughs) It can make you do some of the best and some of the worst
things in this world. And it's good to think about that. It's good to think about that. That is what makes us
human, is that connection and that love for each other. What do you think is the meaning of life? This big ridiculous question. Why the hell, what are we all here for? - I don't think it is ridiculous, man. To me, that meaning in life is finding out that lesson that we
need to help each other. You ask about security. I didn't get to say that, but, you know, everybody's
worried about themselves. The way you solve that security problem is it takes everybody looking
out for everyone else. That's how you solve that problem. - And whatever journey you
take to discovering that point. - Yeah, I mean, with, with me,
I've been asked a few times, do you regret anything? Would you change anything? Now I've done a shit load
(laughs) of despicable things in my life, but I'm at a
point in my life where I like who I am and I know
that I'm doing exactly what I'm supposed to be doing in my life. So would I change anything? As bad as a lot of that
shit has been, I wouldn't. - [Lex] It made you who you are. - Yeah. - [Lex] The whole of it, the whole mess. - I mean, that's trite to
say that, but it's true. That's the weird thing.
It's true. (laughs) - Yeah yeah. Yeah. Also, you mentioned that you're thinking of launching a show. What's it gonna be called? 'Cause you've done a couple of podcasts. You're incredibly good at
this. You're so good at this. - I've done a couple,
I'm on a lot of podcasts and everything like that. I had the Fraudcast with a
friend of mine, Karisse Hendrick. And that ended because of a
difference of opinion. (laughs) Depending on who you ask. One of us was an asshole.
- Yes. - And it may have been me.
- Yeah. - But then I did, "The
AnglerPhish Podcast", which that was, I gotta be honest with you, Lex, it was completely directionless and it was Brett Johnson getting lazy.
- Yeah. - So I ended that. "The Brett Johnson Show" is launching-
- That's the new one. That's what the new one's called? What do you thinking of doing with it? - Making a difference for one thing, but it's gonna be talking
about cyber crime security, helping people.
- Interviews. - Interviews, solo interviews. A lot of it's gonna be solo. Now I'm calling it "The
Brett Johnson Show." I mean, I, because it's
gonna handle crime, talk to criminals and how they turn their lives around to a degree as well. But there's some I wanna bitch about too. - Yeah. I can tell you're good at this. (Brett laughs) I'm a fan already. I'm gonna listen. I'm gonna subscribe. You should too. You'll launching it soon. - Soon. Next week. - Brett, you're an incredible human being. The honesty, the love, I
could just see how much of yourself you put out there. One of the best public
speakers I've ever heard. Definitely, you should be in a Scorsese film about cyber crime. (both laughing) 100%. I could tell You're a good actor. (Brett laughs) It makes perfect sense. Anyway, I really, I'm deeply honored that you spent your time with me today.
- I am too. Thank you. - It was amazing. Thanks for listening to this conversation with Brett Johnson. To support this podcast,
please check out our sponsors in the description. And now, let me leave you with some words from George RR Martin. from "A Clash of Kings." "A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act, the good. Each should have its own reward. Thank you for listening and
hope to see you next time.