Simon Sinek: Leadership, Hard Work, Optimism and the Infinite Game | Lex Fridman Podcast #82
the following is a conversation with simon Sinek author of several books including start with why leaders eat last and his latest the infinite game he's one of the best communicators of what it takes to be a good leader to inspire and to build businesses that solve big difficult challenges this is the artificial intelligence podcast if you enjoy it subscribe I need to review it with five stars an apple podcast supported on patreon or simply connect with me on Twitter and Lex Friedman spelled Fri D ma n as usual I'll do 1 or 2 minutes of ads now and never any ads in the middle that can break the flow of the conversation I hope that works for you and doesn't hurt the listening experience quick summary of the ads to sponsors cash app and masterclass please consider supporting the podcast by downloading cash app and using code lex podcast and signing up to master class and master class comm slash Lex this show is presented by cash app the number-one finance app in the App Store when you 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finish it's not that long but it's an experience that will stick with you for a long time I promise it's easily worth the money you can watch in basically any device once again sign up in master class comm / Lex to get a discount and to support this podcast and now here's my conversation with simon Sinek in the infinite game your most recent book you describe the finite game in the infinite game so from my perspective of artificial intelligence and game theory in general I'm a huge fan of finite games from the broad philosophical sense is something that in the robotics artificial intelligence space we know how to deal with and then you describe the infinite game which has no exact static rules has no well-defined static objective as the players are known unknown they change there's a dynamic element so this is something that applies to business politics life itself so can you try to articulate the objective function here of the infinite game or in the in the cliche broad philosophical sense what is the meaning of life go for the start with a soft ball you know easy question first so James Carr was the philosopher who originally articulated this concept of finite and infinite games and when I learned about it it really challenged my view of how the world works right because I think we all think about winning and being the best and being number one but if you think about it only in a finite game can that exist a game that has fixed rules agreed upon objectives and known players like football or baseball there's always a beginning middle and end and if there's a winner that has to be a loser infinite games as cars describes them as you said have known and unknown players which means anyone can join it has a changeable rules which means you can play however you want and the objective is to perpetuate the game to stay in the game as long as possible in other words there's no such thing as being number one or winning in a game that has no finish line and what I learned is that when we try to win in a game that has no finish line we try and be number we try to be the best in a game that has no agreed-upon objectives or agreed-upon metrics or timeframes there's a few consistent and predictable outcomes the decline of trust the decline the decline of cooperation the decline of innovation and I find this fascinating because so many of the ways that we run most organizations is with a finite mindset you're trying to reduce the beautiful complex thing that is life or what politics or business into something very narrow and in that process the reductionist process you lose something fundamental that makes the whole thing work in the long term so returning not going to let you off the hook easy what is the meaning of life so what is the objective function that is worthwhile to pursue well if you think about our tombstones right they have the date we were born in the date we died but really it's what we do with the gap in between there's a poem called the - you know it's the - that matters it's what we do between the time we're going and the time we die that gives our life meaning and if we live our lives with a finite mindset which means to accumulate more power or money than anybody else to outdo everyone else to be number one to be the best we don't take any of us with us we don't take any of it with us we just die the people who get remembered the way we want to be remembered is how what kind of people we were right devoted mother loving father what kind of person we were to other people Jack Welch just died recently and the Washington Post when it when it wrote the headline for his for his obit it wrote he pleased Wall Street and distressed employees and that's his legacy of a finite player who was obsessed with winning yes who leaves behind a legacy of short-term gains for a few and distress for many that's his legacy and every single one of us gets the choice of the kind of legacy one I have do we want to be remembered for our contributions or a dish or our detractions to live with a finite mindset to live a career with a finite mindset to be number one be the best be the most famous lay the life like Jack Welch you know to live a life of service to to see those around us rise to contribute to our communities to our organizations to leave them in better shape than we found them that's that's the kind of legacy most of us would like to have so day to day when you think about what is the the fundamental goals dreams motivations of an infinite game of seeing your life your career is an infinite game what is that what does that look like I mean I guess I'm sort of trying to stick on this personal ego personal Drive the thing that the fire the reason we want to wake up in the morning and everything we can't go to bed because we're so excited yeah what is that so for me it's about having a just cause it's about a vision that's bigger than me that my work gets to contribute to something larger than myself you know that's what drives me every day I wake up every morning with a with a vision of a world that does not yet exist a world in which the vast majority of people wake up every single morning inspired feel safe at work and return home fulfilled at the end of the day is not the world we live in and so that we still have work to do is the thing that drives me you know I know what I know what my underlying values are you know I wake up to inspire people to do the things that inspire them and these are the things that these are the things that I these are my go to is my touch points that inspire me to keep working you know I think of a career like an iceberg you know if you have a vision for something you're the only one who can see the iceberg underneath the ocean but if you start working at it a little bit shows up and now a few other people can see what you imagined be like oh right yeah no I want to help build that as well and if you have a lot of success then you have a lot of iceberg and people can see this huge iceberg and they say you've accomplished so much but but what I see is all the work still yet to be done yet I still see the huge iceberg underneath the ocean and so the growth you talk about momentum so the incremental revealing of the iceberg is what drives you well it necessarily is incremental what drives me is that is the realization is every is realizing the iceberg bringing more of the iceberg from the unknown to the known bringing more of the vision from the imagination to reality and you have this fundamental vision of optimism you call yourself an optimist I mean in this world I have sort of I see myself a little bit as the main character from the 88 by Dostoevsky who is also kind of seen by society is a fool because he was optimistic so one can you maybe articulate where that sense of optimism comes from and maybe also try to articulate your vision of the future where people are inspired or optimism drives us yes it's easy to forget that when you look at social media and so on with the word toxicity a negativity can often get more likes that optimism has a sort of a beauty to it and I I do hope it's out there so what can you try to articulate a vision yeah so I mean for me optimism and being an optimist is is just seeing the silver lining in every cloud you know even in tragedy it brings people together and the question is can we see that can you see can you see the beauty that is in everything I don't think optimism is foolishness I don't think optimism is blindness though it probably involves some naivete the belief that things will get better the belief that that we tend towards the good even in times of struggle or bad you know you can't sustain war but you can sustain peace you know I think I think things that are are stable are more sustainable things that are optimistic are more sustainable than things that are you know chaotic so you see people as fundamentally good I mean some people may disagree that you can't sus you can sustain peace you can't sustain war I mean you don't have to you I think war is costly you know it involves life and money and peace does not involve those things it requires work I'm not saying it doesn't require work but it it doesn't drain resources I think the same way that war does you know the the people that would say that we will always have war and I just talked to the story and a Stalin is you know would say the conflict and the desire for power and conflict is essential to human nature is sucker but something in your words also perhaps it's the naive aspect that I also share is that you have an optimism that people are fundamentally I'm an idealist you know I and I think idealism is good I'm not I'm not a fool to believe that the ideals that I imagine can come true of course they'll never be world peace but shouldn't we die trying you know I think that's the whole point that's the point of vision vision should be idealistic and it should be all practical purposes impossible but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try and it's the it's the milestones that we we reach that take us closer to that ideal that make us feel that our life and our work have meaning and we're contributing to something bigger than ourselves you know we just because it's impossible doesn't mean we shouldn't try as I said we're still moving the ball down the field we're still making progress things are still getting better even if we never get to that that ideal state so I think idealism is a is a good thing you know in the word infinite game one of the beautiful and tragic aspects of life human life at least at least from the biological perspective is that it ends so sadly into some people yo fine fine it-it's it's tragic to some people or is it ends and I think some people believe that it that it ends on the day you die and some people think it continues on theirs and there's a lot of different ways to think what continues on the works like but let me drag it back to the personal church is uh how do you think about your own mortality are you afraid of death how do you think about your own death I definitely haven't accomplished everything I want to contribute to I like more time in on this earth to keep working towards that vision do you think about the fact that it ends for you yeah you cognizant of course I'm cognizant of it I mean not really all I I don't dwell on it I'm aware of it I know that my life is finite and I know that I have a certain amount of time left on this planet and I'd like to make that time be valuable you know some people would think that ideas kind of allow you to have a certain kind of immortality you know maybe to look around this kind of question so first to push back on you said that everyone was cognizant of the mortality there's a guy named Ernest Becker who would disagree that you basically say that most of human cognition is is created by us trying to create an illusion and try to hide the fact that from ourselves the fact that we're gonna die to try to think that we're it's all gonna go on forever but the fact that we know that it doesn't yes but this mix of denial I mean though I think the book is called denial of death is this constant and now that we're running away from a that's uh in fact some would argue that the inspiration the incredible ideas you've put out there your TED talk has been seen by millions and millions of people right it's just you trying to desperately fight the fact that you are biologically immortal and to the your creative genius comes from the fact that you're trying to create ideas that live on long past you well that's very nice of you I mean I I I would like my ideas to live on beyond me because I think that is a good test that those ideas have value have value in the lives of others I think that's a good test that that others would continue to talk about or share the ideas long after I'm gone I think is perhaps the greatest compliment one can get for one's own work it's very but I don't think it's my awareness of my mortality that drives me to do it it's my desire to contribute that drives me to do it this is the Optima it's the optimist vision it's it's the the pleasure and the fulfillment you get from inspiring others it's just as pure as that it's a let me ask listen i'm russian i'm trying to get your good and your good i'm gonna get get you into these dark areas i'm enjoying it is the ego tied up into it somehow so your name is extremely well known if your name wasn't attached to it do you think you would act differently i I mean for years I hated that my name was attached to it you know I had a rule for years that I wouldn't have my my my face on the cover of the front page of the website you know I had a fight with the publisher because I didn't want my name big on the book I wanted a tiny on the book cuz I kept telling them it's not about me it's about the ideas they wanted to put my name at the top of my book I refused none of my books had my names on the top because I won't I won't let them they would like very much to put my name on the top of the book but the idea has to be bigger than me I'm not bigger than the idea this beautifully put do you think ego but I also am aware that I've become I'm become recognized as the messenger and even though I still think the message is bigger than me I recognize that I have a responsibility as the messenger and whether I like it or not is irrelevant I accept I accept the responsibility I'm happy to do it I'm not sure how to phrase this but there's a large part of the culture right now that emphasizes all the things that nobody disagrees with which is health sleep diet relaxation meditation vacation are really important and there's no you know it's like you can't really argue against that in fact people less sleep that's just I'm joking yes well that's the thing I often I often speak to the fact that passion and love for you do what you're doing and the two words hard work especially in the engineering fields are more important than are more important to prioritize and sleep even though sleep is really important your mind should be obsessed with the hard work with the passion and so on and then I get some pushback of course from people what would he make sense of that is that just me the the crazy Russian engineer really pushing hard work probably we yeah I think that that's a short-term strategy I think if you sacrifice your health for the work at some point it catches up with you and at some point it's like it's like going going going and you get sick your body will shut down for you if you refuse to to take care of yourself you know it's you get sick it's what happens sometimes you know more severe illness than something that just slows you down so I think I think taking like getting sleep I mean there have been Studies on that you know executives for example who get a full night's sleep and stop at a reasonable hour actually accomplish more are more productive than people who work and burn the midnight oil because their brains are working better because they're well rested so you know working hard yes but what not work smart I think that giving our minds and our bodies rest makes us more efficient I think just driving driving driving driving is a short term so short term strategy so but to push back on that a little bit so the annoying thing is you're like a hundred percent right right but the thing is it's because because you're 100% right that weak part of your mind uses that fact to convince you like what so you know I I get all kinds of my mind comes up with all kinds of excuses to try to convince me that I shouldn't be doing what I'm doing to rationalize to rationalize and so what would I have a sense we you I think what you said about executives and leaders is absolutely right but there's the early days the early days of madness and passion for sure then I feel like emphasizing sleep as thinking about a sleep as giving yourself away out from the fact that those early days especially is can be suffering as long it's not sustainable you know right it's not sustainable sure if you're investing all that energy in something at the beginning to get it up and running then at some point you're gonna have to slow down or your body will slow you down for you like you you can choose your body can choose I mean so okay so you don't think from my perspective it feels like people have gotten a little bit soft but you're saying no I think I think that there seems evidence that that that working harder and later I've taken a back seat in it I think we have to be careful with the broad generalizations but but I think in if you go into the workplace there are people who would complain that that more people now than before you know look at their watches and say oops five o'clock go by night right now is that a problem with the people you're saying it's the people giving themselves excuses and people don't work hard or is that the organization's aren't giving them something to believe in something to be passionate about we can't manufacture passion you can't just tell someone be passionate you know it's not how it works passions and output not an input like if I believe in something and I want to contribute all that energy to do it we call that passion you know working hard for something we love is passion working hard for something we don't care about it's called stress but we're working hard either way so I think I think the organization's bears some accountability and our leaders bear some accountability which is if they're not offering a sense of purpose if they're not offering us a sense of cause if they're not telling us that our work is worth more than simply the money it makes then yeah I'm gonna come at five o'clock because I don't really care about making you money remember we live in a world right now where a lot of people rather a few people are getting rich on the hard work of others and so I think when when when people look up and say well why would I do that I'll just if you're not gonna look after me and then you're gonna lay me off at the end of the year because you missed your arbitrary projections you know you're gonna lay me off because you missed your arbitrary projections then why would I be offer my hard work and loyalty to you so I think I don't think we can immediately blame people for going soft I think we can blame leaders for their inability or failure to offer their people something bigger than them making a product or making money yeah that's so that's that's brilliant and start with why leaders elast your books you kind of you but you basically talk about what it what it takes to be a good leader and so some of the blame should go on the leader but how much of it is on finding your passion how much is it on the individual and allowing yourself to pursue that passion pushing yourself to your limits to to really take concrete steps along your path towards that passion yeah there's mutual responsibility there's mutual accountability I mean we we're responsible as individuals to find the organization's and find the leaders that inspire us and organizations are responsible for maintaining that flame and and giving people who believe but they believed you know a chance to contribute to linger on it have you by chance seen the movie whiplash yes again maybe I'm romanticizing suffering again it's the Russian in you it's the Russian yeah the Russians love suffering but so but people who haven't seen it's the movie whiplash as a drum instructor that pushes the drum musician to to his limits to to bring out the best in him and there's a toxic nature to it and they're suffering in it like you've you've worked a lot of great leaders a lot of great individuals so what is that toxic relationship as toxic as it appears in the movie or is that fundamental I've seen that relationship especially in the past with Olympic athletes with especially in the Flett extreme performers seem to do wonders it does wonders for me there's some of them are my best relationships now I'm not representative of everyone something for some of my best relationships form auntie and mentor have been toxic from an external perspective I what do you make of that movie would he make of that kind of relationship but it's not my favorite movie okay so you don't think that's a healthy you don't think that kind of relationship is a great example of a great short term strategy I mean short term I mean look being hard on someone is not the same as toxicity you know you know if you go to the Marine Corps your drill instructor will be very hard and on their Marines and then but still even on the last day of boot camp they'll take their hat off and they'll become a human but the the of all the drill instructors that you know the the the fur the the three or four main but drill instructors assigned to a group of recruits the one that they all want the respect of is the one that's the hardest on them that's that's true and you hear you know there's plenty of stories of people who want to earn the respect of a hard parent or a hard teacher but fundamental that parent that teacher that drill instructor has to believe in that person has to see potential it's not it's not a formula which is if I'm hard on people they'll do well which is there has to still be love it has to be done with absolute love and it has to be done with it has to be done responsibly I mean some people can take a little more pressure than others but it's not I don't I think it's irresponsible to think of it as a formula but that I'm just toxic at people they will they will do well it depends on their personalities first of all that works for some but not all and and second of all it it can't be done willy-nilly it has to still be done with with care and love and and sometimes you could get equal or better results without all of the toxicity so so one of the I guess toxicity on my part was a really bad word to use but if we talk about what makes a good leader and just look at an example in particular looking at Elon Musk he's known to put push people to the limits in a way that I think really challenges people in a way they've never been challenged before to do the impossible sure but it can really break people and and jobs was hard and and Amazon is hard and you know but the thing that's important is none of them lie about it you know the you know people ask me about Amazon all the time like Jeff Bezos never lied about it you know even the ones who like Amazon don't last more than a couple years before they burn out but when we're honest about the culture then it gives people the opportunity who like to work in that kind of culture to choose to work in that kind of culture as opposed to pretending and saying oh no this is all you know it's all lovey-lovey here and then you show up and it's it's the furthest thing from it so I mean if you know I think the the reputations are putting a lot of pressure on people to you know jobs jobs was not an easy man to work for he pushed people but everyone who worked there was given the space to create and do things that they would not have been able to do anywhere else and work at a level that they didn't work anywhere else and and jobs didn't have all the answers I mean he pushed his people to to come up with answers he he he he wasn't just looking for people to execute his ideas and and people did people accomplished more than they thought they were capable of which is wonderful how do you you're talking about the infinite game and not thinking about to short-term and yet you see some of the most brilliant people in the world being pushed by a llamas to accomplish some of the most incredible things when we're talking about autopilot one we're talking about some of the hardware engineering and they they do some of the best work of their life and then leave how do you balance that in terms of what it takes to be a good leader what it takes to accomplish great things in your life yeah so I think there's a difference between someone who can get a lot about it get a lot out of people in the short term and building an organization that can sustain beyond any individual there's a difference when you say beyond any individual you mean beyond beyond like if the leader dies correct like could could Tesla continue to do what it's doing without Elon Musk you know and could and you're perhaps implying which is a very interesting question that he cannot I don't know you know the argument you're making of this this this person who pushes everyone arguably is not a not a repeatable model right you know is Apple the same without Steve Jobs or is it slowly moving in a different direction or has he established something that could be resurrected with the right leader that was his dream I think it's to have or to build an organization that lives on beyond them at least I remember I think that's what a lot of leaders desire which is to create something that was bigger than them you know most businesses most entrepreneurial ventures could not pass the school bus test which is if the founder was hit by school bus would everyone continue the business without them or were they all just go find jobs and the vast majority of companies would fail that test you know in in in in especially in the entrepreneurial world that if you take the inspired visionary leader away the whole thing collapses so is that a business or is that just a force of personality and a lot of entrepreneurs you know face that reality which is they have to be in every meeting make every decision you know come up with every idea because if they don't who will and the question is well what have you done to build your bench is it it's not sometimes its ego the belief that only I can sometimes it's just things got did so well for so long that just forgot and sometimes it's a failure to build the training programs or or hire the right people that that could replace you who are maybe smarter and better and browbeating people is only one strategy I don't think it's necessarily the only strategy nor is it always the best strategy I think people people get to choose the cultures they want to work in so this is why I think I think companies should be honest about the kind of culture that they've created you know I heard a story about Apple where some somebody came in from a big company you know he'd accomplished a lot and has ego was very large and he was going on about how he did this and he did that and he did this and he did that and somebody from Apple said we don't care what you've done the question is what are you gonna do and that's that's you know for somebody who wants to be pushed that's the place you go because you choose to be pushed now we all want to be pushed to some degree you know anybody who wants to yeah you know accomplish anything in this world wants to be pushed to some degree whether it's through self pressure or external pressure or you know public pressure whatever it is but I think this this whole idea of one size fits all is a false narrative of how leadership works but what all leadership requires is creating an environment in which people can work at their natural best but you have you have a sense that it's possible to create a business where it lives on beyond you know fee if we look at now if we just look at this current moment I just recently talked to Jack Dorsey CEO of Twitter and he's under a lot of pressure now don't know if you're aware of the news that he's being pushed out as in potential as the CEO of Twitter because he's the CEO of already of an incredibly successful company plus he wants to go to Africa to live a few months in Africa to to connect with the world that's outside of the Silicon Valley and sort of there's this idea well can Twitter live without jack we'll find out but you have a general as a student of great leadership you have a general sense that it's possible yeah of course it's possible I mean what Bill Gates built with Microsoft may not have survived Steve Ballmer if the company weren't so rich but such a nerd Allah is putting it back on an on track again it's become a visionary company again it's attracting great talent again it went through a period where they couldn't get better the best talent and the best talent was leaving now people want to work for Microsoft again well that's not because of pressure Ballmer put more pressure on people mainly to hit numbers than anything else that didn't work yes right and so the question is what kind of pressure are we putting on people we're putting on pressure people to hit numbers or hit hit arbitrary deadlines or putting on pressure on people because we believe that they can do better work and the work that we're trying to do is to advance a vision that's bigger than all of us and if you're gonna put pressure on people it better be for the right reason like if you're gonna put pressure on me it better be for a worthwhile reason if it's just to hit a goal if it's just to hit some arbitrary date or some arbitrary number or make a stock price hit some target you can keep it I'm out of here yes but if you want to put pressure on me because we are are we are brothers and sisters-in-arms working to advance a cause bigger than ourselves that we believe whatever we're gonna build will significantly contribute to the greater good of society then go ahead I'll take the pressure and if you look at the apples and you look at the the the the the the Elon Musk's you know the jobs in the Elan musk they fundamentally believe that what they were doing would improve Society and and it was for the good of humankind and so the pressure in other words the the the what they were doing was more important more valuable than any individual in the team and so the pressure they put on people served a greater good and so we we we we looked to the left and we looked to the right to each other and said we're in this together we accept this we want this but if it's just pressure to hit a number or you know make the widget and move a little faster yeah and that's soul-sucking that's not passion that's stress and I think a lot of leaders confuse that making people work hard is not what makes them passionate giving them something to believe in and work on is what drives passion and when you have that then turning up the pressure only brings people together Dresden if I've done the right way done the right way speaking of pressure thank you I'm gonna give you 90 seconds to answer the last question which is if I told you that tomorrow was your last day to live and talk about mortality sunrise to sunset can you tell me can you take me through the day what do you think that day would involve you can't spend it with your family oh joy as well I would probably want to fill all of my senses with things that excite my senses I'd want to look at beautiful art I want to listen to beautiful music I'd want to taste incredible food I'd want to smell amazing tastes I'd want to touch you know something that you know something that's beautiful to touch I'd want all of my senses to just be consumed with with things that I find beautiful and you talked about this idea of we don't do it often these days they're just listening to music turning off all the devices and actually taking in and listening to music so as a addendum before it to talk about music what song would you be blasting in this last day you're alive let's zap 'ln what do we hope that I love no no there's probably going to be a Beatles song in there that'll definitely be some Beethoven in there the classics the clown guy yeah exactly thank you so much for talking to you thank you for making time for it under pressure we made a hat it was great thanks for listening to this conversation with simon Sinek and thank you to our sponsors cash app and master class please consider supporting the podcast by downloading cash app and using coal xpod cast and signing up to master class at master class comm slash flex if you enjoy this podcast subscribe on youtube review it with 5 stars an apple podcast supported on patreon or simply connect with me on Twitter Alex Friedman and now let me leave you with some words from simon Sinek there are only two ways to influence human behavior you can manipulate it or you can inspire it thank you for listening I hope to see you next time you