Teddy Atlas: Mike Tyson, Cus D'Amato, Boxing, Loyalty, Fear & Greatness | Lex Fridman Podcast #406
- That's all that matters:
that he got there, that he got to the place
to act like a fighter, to do what we want him to
do, to be ready to persevere, to go beyond the comfort
level, to do another round. He didn't want to, damn
right he didn't want to, but he knew we want him to. And he knew in order to pass
the test, he had to do it. He goes, now it's gonna
be your job to get him in the gym, make him mentally stronger, make him face things, and teach him how to slip
punches and create holes, and fill those freaking holes
with devastating punches, this is Cus, with punches
with bad intentions. - The following is a
conversation with Teddy Atlas, a legendary and at times
controversial boxing trainer and commentator. When I was going to this
conversation with Teddy, I was ready to talk boxing: styles,
matches, techniques, tactics, and his analysis of individual fighters like
Mike Tyson, Michael Moore, Klychko, Usik, Povetkin,
Lomachenko, "Triple G", Canelo, Muhammad Ali, "Sugar" Ray Leonard, Hagler, Duran, Floyd,
and on and on and on. Like I said, I came ready to talk boxing, but I stayed for something even bigger, the Shakespearean human
story of Teddy Atlas, Cus D'Amato and Mike Tyson. It's a story about loyalty,
betrayal, fear, and greatness. It's a story where nobody is
perfect and everybody is human. To summarize, in the early '80s, young trainer Teddy Atlas worked with his mentor Cus D'Amato in training the young boxing protege, now
a boxing legend, Mike Tyson. Mike was a troubled youth,
arrested over 40 times, and at age 15, he was
sexually inappropriate with Teddy's 11-year-old niece. In response to this, Teddy put a .38 caliber
handgun to Tyson's ear and told him to never
touch his family again, or he would kill him if he did. For this, Cus D'Amato
kicked Teddy out. Why? Well, that's complicated. In part, I think, to
help minimize the chance of Mike Tyson, who Cus legally adopted, will be taken away by the
state and with him the dream of developing one of the
greatest boxers of all time. Of course, that summary doesn't capture the full complexity of human nature and human drama involved here. For that, you have to
listen to this conversation, the things said, and
the things left unsaid, the pain in Teddy's voice, the contradictions of love and anger that permeate his stories
and his philosophy on life. Like I said, I came to talk
about boxing and stayed to talk about life. This conversation will stay
with me for a long time. The people close to you,
the people you trust, the people you love are everything. And if they betray you and
break your heart, forgive them. Forgive yourself and try again. Happy holidays everyone. I love you all. This is a Lex Fridman
podcast, to support it, please check out our
sponsors in the description. And now, dear friends, here's Teddy Atlas. You wrote in the book that your father had a big influence on your life. What lessons have you learned
about life from your father? - When you ask that question, you know, I remember Cus D'Amato
when I was with him up in Catskill for all those years, and he used to say to me, "Teddy, you learn through osmosis." I'd believe there's true to
that if I know what osmosis is. And I-
(both laughing) but it sounds good.
- Yeah. - But I learned through
osmosis with my father. He wasn't a big talker. He
was, you know, he was a doer. And when you're around someone who lives a certain kinda life and does
certain things, it penetrates. - He was a doctor?
- He was, I'm gonna sound like an idiot
right now because I'm being a son, but he was the
greatest diagnostic doctor... I mean, if I say I ever
knew, what's that mean? - Yeah.
- You know what I mean? Are you a doctor? You know what I mean? Like, what does that mean? But other people have told me this. - Yeah.
- Like just legendary stories. - He would do house calls
and he'd help people. And like you said, a lot of people have spoken
about the impact he's had on their life. - He built two hospitals
and he built those hospitals before any of us had a bridge in New York, connecting Brooklyn to Staten Island. And he built it so people could get proper hospital care that couldn't afford it, period. And everybody looked at him as eccentric. - Yeah. Nice.
- Yeah, because he would literally sneak patients, not sneak 'em in, he was Dr. Atlas, he could do what he wanted
to a certain extent, but he would bring patients in without administering,
putting through administration. So there was no charge because, you know, they didn't have anything. They were street people. I remember being, my only way to be with my
father was to go on house calls. Or to go to the office.
There's no, you know? And so I went on house calls with him. And he did house calls, by the way, till he was 80, and $3. I mean, it was better
than like McDonald's, you know what I mean? I mean, the deal, $3 and you got medicine, you got everything. But he used to, right around the holidays, there was just certain things
that I didn't understand, but I understood later where we would just drive
certain areas and he just all of a sudden opened his door, he would pick up these
homeless and, you know- - Help 'em.
- I'm 10 years old. You know, move over and
move over, you know? - And it's just you,
him and a homeless guy? - A couple.
- A couple. - Yeah. Whatever he could fit in. Three, four. You know, whatever it was. - That's a big heart. - And then he took 'em to the
hospital, dropped him off. So, you know, I would ask
questions after it was all over with, I'd say, "Dad, they're sick?" He goes, "Well, not in the way where you put them in the hospital." So he said, yeah. And he tried to explain
things to me, you know, he would try... He didn't talk much unless
you ask him something. And that kind of works. And you know, don't talk unless
someone asks you something. And he explained to me that, I said, well, "Why are you putting 'em
in the hospital then?" You know, and of course the sickness was, they were alcoholics, but
why are you putting 'em? It wasn't an alcohol rehab, you know, so why are you putting, and it wasn't for the purpose to dry out. He wasn't trying to cure them. Let's put that before we
anoint him for sainthood. You know, like by Teddy Atlas. So I was like, we
finally get to the point, why you put him in there? Well, because it's the
holidays. All right. Why you put him in there? Well, the holidays, you know, are good for certain
people and bad for others. And it was always before the holidays. It was before Christmas,
before... Whatever. And New Year's, whatever.
And so I said, "Why?" And he said, "Because they
remind people, certain people, of what they don't have." That other people enjoy the holidays because of what they have:
family, you know, whatever. And it reminds them they're minus that. - That's pretty profound.
- Yeah. And then, and I don't
remember because he didn't use the word suicide, but I got it. Like he basically, I forget
how he said it, but like, I just got it. I don't know how I got,
I suppose, I don't know. But I just got it like, so
they don't hurt themselves. That's what came across.
- In every way. - I don't think he ever articulated that, ever verbalized that. But yeah. They don't hurt themselves. So, and well, how does that work? Well, just, basically they're
gonna be around people. They're not gonna be alone.
They're gonna be around people. They're gonna get fed,
they're gonna be warm. Right? And it's gonna be for three
days, two-three days, whatever. And basically, it's a bridge. So the funny thing as a 10-year-old, I want to be connected to him. So I've enlisted myself in the job. When he used to drop them
off, he would take them, get 'em in. Right? And then the thing that I know, again, he didn't say nothing. But you notice things,
and, if you care enough, you don't notice nothing
if you don't care. But if you care and if
it's important, you notice. And this guy was important to me. I just was, I didn't know
what a hero was. No clue. I loved Mickey Mantle. I love Willie Mays. I loved Muhammad Ali. I never, ever connected them
in my mind as heroes. Never. My father. I didn't connect it that way. But he-
- Looking back now... - Looking back, he was my
first connection to a hero. - The two of you ever talk about how much you love each other? The word love... - The one thing that was not allowed. The greatest memory I have,
my father showing me love was, we were down in Florida at an airport. And we were, I was born in Miami. Don't ask where, I was passing through. And the rest of my
family's born in New York. Staten Island. And so I was supposed
to go back with, right? And I wanted to stay with my
mother for whatever reason. And so he, you know, of
course, conceded to it. And he's, okay. You know, whatever. And very quiet. Very... And there's a man who never
showed emotion to anyone. I mean, for the most, you know? Really. All of a sudden he just
turned and kissed me on the forehead and left. And I was like, that's different. - Yeah. You still remember that, huh? - Yeah. Like, that's weird. - You lost him 30 years ago? How did that change you? - It made me realize that
some of the deals I used to make for God weren't realistic. When I was a kid, I used
to make deals with God, let me die before my father. And then, you know, you get older and you
have kids, you're blessed. Why did you make that
deal? You know what I mean? Like, (laughs) thank you
for not taking me up on it. - Yeah, yeah.
- Thanks. - [Lex] Yeah. (laughs) - You know?
- Oh, yeah. You miss him? - I miss him in moments
when I'd like to know what to do, and, you know, I remember when I would drive with him on the house calls, he
didn't listen to music. He was a guy, he read books
to his, when he got older, he read books till blood
vessels broke in his eyes. He only read nonfiction books. Science. He loved science. Wars. Generals. I mean, I cheated on a couple book reports because I didn't do
the reading of the book the night before, I had
a freaking, a book report to put in, "Dad. I got a book report to do
on the war of Stalingrad." - Yeah.
- Really. The war of Stalingrad. And who the freak could
tell you where you get an A? I got an A. - Yeah. - I just wrote what he told me. He told me generals. He told me times. He told me strategy. He told me about the winter that came
and destroyed the Germans. And the Soviets were tougher than- - You got an A?
- And he told Soviets were tougher than the Germans. And, you know, the Germans
picked on the wrong opponent. - Yeah.
- I was already in the boxing business.
- Yeah. - I didn't even know it.
- Yeah. (laughs) - I didn't even know it.
- Yeah. - Matchmaking, very important.
- Yeah. - They mismatched. They made a mistake with
the picking the opponent. And so when we would
be driving in the car, my father would be in a trance. And, dad, he wasn't ignoring me, at all. He was just with his
thoughts. He was wherever. He wasn't even hearing the radio no more. I always wonder where he was. I did. So I asked him one day. And just so we're driving,
I said, I wanna know. So I said, "Dad, what do you think when you're
basically in this place that I know you're somewhere?" Where are you, what are you seeing? I actually said, "What do you see?" And he said to me, "I see what could be. I see what could be." And I'm like, oh, all right. - I gotta ask you, when
did you discover boxing? When did you first fall
in love with boxing? - When it saved me. - How did it save you? - I was a stupid, violent
kid that was angry, not exactly knowing why I was angry. I'd fit in real good in today's society. Because there's a lot
of angry kids out there that I don't think they
know why they're angry. I was just out there
getting in fights and I got this stupid thing from that. - Can you tell the story
of how you got that? - I was just running around
doing stupid things, bad things. I hurt people, some people
physically, but I hurt my family. You know, that's BS,
you only hurt yourself. You know, that's a good way
of, you know, alibiing it. You know? But if at some point the
truth usually finds its way... I'd like it to look like
I was just hurting myself, but it wasn't, obviously. So I was just out on the streets with kids that didn't grow up in the
neighborhood I grew up. I grew up in a neighborhood
where a father was a doctor, and I walked down the street... The funny thing was, down the hill was a very tough neighborhood
called Stapleton. And most of the people down there on the corners wish that
they could get up the hill. And I wished I could get down the hill. So I went down the hill, and I hung out with all these friends that became lifelong friends. And I gravitated to that because I... I figured out later a little bit. But, you know, I wanted family.
We were a disjointed family. We were, you know, my father was a doctor. He didn't have time for nothing but being a doctor, you know, I think when you're great at something, you sacrifice something too. You know, when you're
really great at something, so great that maybe God made you great and you're too great for your own good. And I don't know, it took me to these
stupid, dangerous places. Dangerous for me, but
dangerous for other people too. Because I got to the point
where I was doing robberies on the street. I was fighting everybody. And you know what the most
dangerous part about it was? And I came to this realization
on my own. All by myself. I figured out. I was really as dangerous, you know, these kids from the projects,
some of 'em, they got nothing. First of all, I learned you don't have
to be poor to be poor. You don't have to be
deprived of certain things to be deprived. And, because you... At least
to think you're deprived. And I was poor in a way that
I didn't have the only thing I wanted to have, him. So here I am where I'm out
there doing these things. And what made me more, I was more dangerous than
some of these psychopaths. Well, I was a psychopath too, I guess, the way I was behaving. But some of these psychopaths
that really had nothing, you know, really would, you know, they obviously would kill you. I was dangerous almost in the same way, but for a different reason. I know it's ridiculous
what I'm about to tell you, but I figured it out. 'Cause I felt it. I thought I was on a righteous path. I thought I had a right... Because it was gonna
get me my father back. Why? Why? I mean, you know, you're a scientist, you couldn't figure this one out, because all the people that had him were injured
people, fractured people, screwed up people in some ways. But hurt, damaged people. So if I get damaged, I'll get him. So I was on a crusade, really a righteous crusade
where I thought it was okay. I had permission. I had permission to do these
terrible things, quite frankly. And to fight everyone. And I did. And then it came almost to a crash of doing all that, you know, winding up in Rikers Island, like an idiot. Not understanding the damage I did to this poor man that, you know, he was a great doctor and
he's gotta see his son and hear about, you know what I mean? Like, God, I was out
on that day, you know, with the guys that I grew
up with now, you know, the guys from the projects
from the, as I described, and I was with one of
'em who, he's dead now. So I was with him and we were in a neighborhood, the
neighborhood we grew up that I hung out and then, and he grew up in, Billy,
he came from the projects. And we got into a thing where somebody cut us
off, we cut them off, you know, jumped out to fight. And, you know, it turned
out there's like five or six of them and two of us. And we fought, you know, right on the side right there, only about a block from where
I used to hang out and maybe a block and a half. And right in front of
like a Spanish bodega. And it really does happen in slow motion. I actually saw the guy, I was fighting the guys
that I had to fight, and then all of a sudden I
was able to get one guy out of the way a little bit. And I really, I noticed
the guy go into his pocket, and I knew why he was going
in his pocket, you know? And when he came outta his pocket, I knew what it was right away. It was weird because in
the neighborhood guys used to hang out, they were
into this, you know, they get into fights like
right on the streets. And they went to, at that time, they went into this cheap knife. But it was, they thought it was, well, we thought it was cool. It was a 007. And the cool thing, whatever, was that you could flick
it, you could learn, and I learned how to flick, you know, but I never carried a knife. But when my friends would
have it, I would just, you learn how to, you could flick it open, not a switchblade, but
flick it with your wrist. And I was like, here I am in the middle
of this fricking fight. And all of a sudden, oh,
that's a 007, you know? And so I'm like, you gotta
make a decision, you know? And I got a split... I can either not do nothing, which wasn't, didn't seem
like a great, you know, a great option. I couldn't run away. - Why not? - 'Cause you gotta live
with yourself afterwards. And that's more difficult to
live with than whatever it is at that second, because
that don't go away away. - You couldn't live with
yourself running away. - It's just don't go away. That thing, nothing to
do with being brave. It has nothing to do
with being brave, really. It's got to do with just
common sense in life, that for me, whatever you're
dealing with, it's over. It's done. Like okay, deal with it. Go to bed, whatever. But you do that, you
know that other thing. You gone, that never ends. This thing ends. - Memory of you being, let's say, a coward in that moment, that never ends. - The only thing I had
at that point in my life, in my stupid mind, was a reputation. That I would stand up to certain things, that was like, and that for me was worth something, whatever. Because I didn't feel any
worth to anything else. That was the only thing I
felt a connection of worth to. So... - [Lex] So you stood
your ground and got cut? - So I say, no. I made a decision. - Yes.
- I stood my ground. But I actually, things
do slow down. They do. And I actually said it's 007, he's gonna flick it, and I didn't say, but he's gonna flick it. I get a split second, either, like I said, either I do nothing, whatever. Or I get to him before he gets it flicked. I went to get to it
before he got it flicked. and I just as I got close
to, I did him a favor. I walked right into a counter punch because I cooperated with him, I went right to him and just as I... He practiced more than I did
with the 007, apparently. Because he was like, boom boom, boom boom. And, anyway... - What did you think? What did you think that happened?
That was all slow motion. Did you think you might die? - Yeah. Well, not immediately. Took me a minute. I'm a slow learner. I put my hand up. Right? Wouldn't you? I guess so. And it went into my face. And that was it. It was gooey. It was warm and gooey. And I was like, I don't
know what this means, but I don't wanna know. But I think I know. And... And... - Did you think about
your dad, in that moment? - No. You know what I thought about it was, you don't know who anyone
is until they're tested. And I learned that. Cus used to tell me, but I learned it. He used say, I remember one time Cus, I was a 17, 18-year-old
kid up there and, you know, thought I was whatever I thought I was. And he said, "You got a lot of friends?" And I said, "Yeah." 'Cause you know, I was
on the street hanging out with 100 kids at night,
sometimes, on the street corner. So I was like, I don't know too many people
that hung out with 100 kids on the street, on a corner,
on a Friday, Saturday night. And I was like, "Yeah,
I got a lot of friends." He goes, "Really?" "Yeah, really." He said, "How about if I
told you might not have any, most likely you don't have any." And he goes, and then he
just started this thing. He said, "Everyone's gonna
be tested. You, me, everyone. 'Cause you don't know about
nobody until they're tested." He goes, "You know nothing." He goes, "You know nothing until you know, until something happens to test if they were really a friend." And he told me this story about a guy, a guy came to him and he was upset. "What are you upset about?" He goes, "I'm upset because
I just lost a friend." You know, "After 20 years of friendship, we're not friends no more." So coach looks at him, he goes,
"Let me ask you a question. What made you think you
were ever friends with him?" Now the guy gets insulted,
the guy's, "Did you hear me?" He goes, "I just told you
20 years I've been friends with this guy. Why would you say that to me?" He said, "Well, I say it again. What makes you think he was your friend?" He goes, "Whatever happened
in the 20 years other than chasing girls?" 'Cause Cus figured that one out fast. "Chasing girls and drinking
together and whatever else you're doing out on the street. Whatever gave you the inclination
that he was a friend?" He goes, "Whatever,
when did he risk himself to be your friend? When was it dangerous to be your friend?" - [Lex] When was the friendship tested? - When was it uncomfortable
to be your friend? And you know what the guy
said? You can figure it out. You're a scientist. He said... He said, "Today."
- Yeah. - And today came for me. And today, today, today, today,
kept coming for me, today. And that day, my friend
Billy had turned out, while I was fighting these
whatever, five, six guys. And where was Billy? He was on the roof. He was on the roof. He was on the roof. He was my best friend. And so anyway, they
take me to the hospital. And here's the thing with my father. But one thing Billy did
do for me when he got off the roof, thank God,
he did, he dragged me, dragged me into this
bodega, laid me on the floor and started putting towels. Right? And the towels,
I vaguely remember this. They filled up with blood. I mean, completely, like drenched, like you put 'em under a shower. And I heard the bodega owner screaming, screaming, you know, like, (imitates screaming) you know, whatever. And everyone's screaming
and there's chaos. And I'm like, I don't know. I'm calm. Weird. I'm like real calm. And I'm just in this place, where things are calm. (laughs) And all of a sudden
I hear Billy, he's screaming, "Call the ambulance," call the, (imitates screaming) you know, and nobody's doing nothing. Everyone's frozen. I'm starting to understand already, people get frozen in situations. People... The fear... Fear, fear, fear, fear,
just paralyzes people. And I was going into a fear business. I was learning, I was learning, I was getting, learning, early PhD. - In fear?
- Yeah. And all of a sudden,
genius, Billy, genius, really, street kid.
- Yeah. - He jumps up on a freaking counter, jumps over the counter,
grabs the phone, calls 911, says a cop's been shot. And forget about it. It was crazy. All I remember after that, I'll tell you the couple
things I remember, lights, being put onto a stretcher, bounced around, you know, rushed. I felt everyone's anxiety,
except mine. I had none. But I felt everyone's
anxiety, everyone's fear, like it was all around me. It was like, wow, this is interesting. It's kind of, I know that's
stupid, but like, well, this is interesting. - You really have an eye for fear. That's fascinating.
You're really studying it. - Well I had no choice. I got introduced in the crash course, and they put me in ambulance. And this is what I
remember, to your point, I'm sorry it took so
long to get to it, I am, although I'll probably do it again before this conversation's over, but I- - It's all about the journey.
- Yeah. We'll get there. We'll get there, pops. So I hear the cops say,
"We might lose him." And I'm like laughing to myself. I'm not laughing because I'm not, again, I'm not John Wayne, John
Wayne would've laughed, but I'm like, lose? You guys are stupid. You know, I didn't say
that, but I'm like, lose me? My father's the greatest
doctor in the freaking world. There's nothing to worry about. You people, all you people are all uptight and whacked out here with
fear and there's nothing to worry about. Dr. Atlas is my father. So anyway, so they're taking
me to the, and they said, "We don't have time." I hear a couple things I
remember, "Don't have time, take 'em to," and they take me to the US Public Health Hospital, Marine Hospital it was called at the time, but US Public Health. And it's in Stapleton,
so it's close, thank God. So they're taking me and I hear them on the radio, you know, saying this stuff about we
gotta move, we gotta move. And I start talking. And they're telling me don't talk. And I like to talk a lot, you
know, and I'm so, again, fear. There's no fear when
the fear's been removed. It's the only time you're
really free in life. And I know that sounds
absurd, but really, it is. It's the only time you're
really free in life. I was, when you-
- Close to death? - When you're devoid of things that normally hold you back,
that normally influence you, in ways, that, you know, that
are not of the influence, that always positive influence, where you are in a pure place, where you're in a purely free place from all inhibitions, from
fear, from anxiety, from joy. Joy can screw you up. And you're
free from all these things. And I'm in this place, - In the back of an ambulance you're free. - I'm, yeah, I'm like, I said, "Just get me Dr. Atlas." And they say, "We don't have time." No, no, no, no, no. You don't... You have to get Dr. Atlas.
You have to get him. This was the... Dammit. This was the... You know what I mean? I finally freaking hit the
number and I'm not getting paid. And then all of a sudden I'm out. - How many stitches- - Well, I think it was 400, 200 inside, 200 outside or whatever it was. - It's a lot.
- Hey, look, after 50, the number doesn't matter no more. Right? Whatever, 60, 70,
80, 90, whatever, you know? So I was fortunate. I was fortunate. And of course they, I was fortunate, they told me afterwards, that he missed my jugular
literally by like a centimeter. I mean, whatever. And so then we wouldn't be having this conversation, obviously. - Well, I'm glad you made it.
- Yeah. I'm kind of glad too. And it just missed my
eye, which, thank God. It's bad enough, have a scar,
imagine me with a patch? I mean, it's enough that
I got this freaking thing. And look, it goes all the
way, you know, I mean it's, you know, it's pretty long. And... I don't know. I was out and then
somehow I sensed like they had the curtain closed, you know? And it's amazing how vivid this is. And the curtain's closed
and I see a shadow. I felt a presence. I did. And I felt him. He's a powerful guy. And I felt him. And I just
see like a shadow, you know? And all of a sudden the
curtain gets pushed back, and I can't really see,
it's dark and I'm, you know, out of it, but not completely out of it. And pushes the curtain back, comes in, and his hands, even though it's all
bandaged, you know, whatever. But his hand surveys. It felt safe, and it felt warm and safe. I was happy. And he got there, you know? - Did he say something?
- Yeah. Yeah. Remember, I gave you a
little bit of introduction to my father, right? You know him now a little bit, right? - Yeah, yeah. What'd he say about the job? - He said, he just said,
this is what he said. I remember to this day what he said. - Yeah.
- That I do remember. I don't know if it was six or five people, but this I do remember. He said, "They did a good job. You're gonna have a scar
the rest of your life." And he left. - Oh man, they did a good job. You mentioned Cus D'Amato,
legendary trainer. And you also mentioned it turned out he really cared about you in the book you write
about a testimony he gave. I was hoping I could read it 'cause it speaks to your
character, it speaks to his, it's just powerful. The testimony goes, "Your honor, I realize you might
not know much about me, but I've spent my whole
life developing young men. As a boxing manager, I trained two world champions, heavyweight champion Floyd Patterson and light heavyweight
champion Jose Torres. I've also helped a lot of other young boys
straighten out their lives and build character. I know things about Teddy
Atlas this court doesn't know. Things you won't find
on his arrest record. This boy has character. He has loyalty. He'll hurt himself before
he'll let down a friend. These qualities are rare
and they shouldn't be lost. He's made mistakes.
We've all made mistakes. But I've come to know this
boy, and if we lose him, we'll be losing someone who
could help a lot of people. Please don't take this
young boy's future away. He could be someone
special. Let's not lose him. Please..." Those are powerful words
from a powerful man. What have you learned about
life from Mr. Cus D'Amato? - He gave me a quote and
he drilled into my head. I became his guy. You know? He loved me, I loved him. He said to me, "Teddy, no matter what a man says, is what he does in the end that he intended to do all along." That's what I learned from Cus. Rest of it is BS. And a lot of people say things, you just have to give him a minute to let them show you, eventually, what they really meant by it. I also learned from him that everyone's afraid, Cus's way of saying, another great saying, you'll get kick outta this, "Anyone who's in a situation where fear should be prevalent, where fear is actually
necessary to survive the situation, anyone who says that they're not afraid,
they're one of two things: They're either a liar or
they should go to a doctor, find out what the
freak's wrong with them." He was right about that. You know, we live in a taboo
society where that word, to a certain extent, is taboo
because it invokes weakness. You know? We are just layers of what
we saw and learned since we were kids. We all are. We're
products of those layers. I learned that on my own.
Well, through some help. At the end of the day, you know, fear, people will find their
way of avoiding that term. So they use the word anxiety, they use the word, you know, butterflies, apprehension, you know, a million different words. I find all those other
words to be cousins of fear. And fear... Fear causes
a lot of things in life. It causes a lot of problems. And it also solves a lot of problems. Without it, we couldn't be great. If we are great, if we ever
have a chance to be great, or at least to aspire to be great. - How does fear connect to greatness? That's a profound statement. Without fear we wouldn't
be able to be great. - Yeah, you couldn't be great without fear because fear allows you to be brave. The most important word for me in this whole, you know,
conversation, right, neighborhood, would be selfishness. And it allows you to be
for a moment less selfish. One of the things I
learned, I guess partly on my own, everyone thinks
my greatest teacher was Cus. He was a great teacher, mentor, my greatest teacher was my
father, the one who never talked. And I realize one of the things to be better towards great is if you can submit less than we submit. See, one of the things that I'm afraid of, one of the things, I was always quitting,. In my business, it's
kind of not a good thing. - Every business, I think.
Yours is just more clear. - Yeah. And it hurts more. - (laughs) True, in the moment, at least. - Yeah. In the moment. But you're right, 100% because some things hurt
for a long time afterwards, and something like regret. Regret is the worst thing in the world because it's a solitary sentence. And, man oh man... - That's a powerful phrase. Regret is a solitary sentence. Oh boy. You're full of good lines. - (laughs) You know, it wasn't
easy to accumulate them. - Yeah- - It was a little bit hurtful, but so... Submit less. Because we submit every
day and if we can get to a place where we submit so compromise ourselves less, we'll get to a better place. You know, again, one of the
words for me that attaches to things that give you, that wind up hurting you
in life and have hurt me in life, one of those
boogeymen words is the word of convenience, that's
attached to everything. You know, people disappoint you not because they wanna disappoint
you or let you down or betray you because
they wanna betray you. They do it because it's
more convenient to do than the other thing. An old man once told me, he said to me, I was trying to rationalize something, I was trying to make an
excuse for something, I was trying to make
myself better than I was, I was trying to say it was okay. And he just looked at me, and he liked me, and he said, "Teddy, there ain't no such thing
as being a little pregnant." I was like, yeah. Goes, "Either you're pregnant
or you're not pregnant, either you're real or you're
not real, either you're, you know, truthful or you're not truthful, either you're tough or you're not tough, either you're, you know, committed or you're not committed, either you in or you're out." - That applies to a lot of things. - Yeah.
- Including loyalty. - That's quite a statement. But the lifeblood of
humanity for me is loyalty. It's what goes through the veins of, you know, everything has to
have some veins in some form. And if humanity has veins, what runs through the veins
of humanity instead of blood to keep it alive is loyalty. Without loyalty's-
- That's powerful words. - Without loyalty, we are dead. We're freaking walking, we're vessels. I never understood what a ghost ship was. You know what? As I got older, I know
what a ghost ship is. It's people. It's people that are empty. They got no loyalty, therefore
they got no humanity. Therefore they got nothing.
Therefore, freak them. Freak them. Because, and you know why
they don't have loyalty? Convenience. And you know why? Because it's hard to be
loyal. It's actually hard. I'll be a son of a gun... If you're telling me,
yeah, it sounds great. Give it to me, give it
to me, paint me with it. Yeah, it's great. Yeah. I'm loyal. I'm, yeah, this is good. I'm ready. I'm on that team. I'm ready. Put me in coach. I'm ready. "Okay, now, you have to, you're gonna have to get hurt here." "What do you mean, get hurt?" "Oh, well, it's gonna be painful. I mean, to be loyal, you know, you're gonna be in
danger because the person that you committed your
loyalty to, for a reason, because obviously did something in your life, whatever, whatever, you are actually gonna get
hurt to be loyal to 'em, you're actually gonna..." "Hold on a minute. Wait, hold on a minute, coach. Hold on. Call timeout here. Let me think about this, coach, I might need more practice. I'm not ready for the game. I'm not ready to go in the game yet. Gimme a little more practice, coach." And it hurts to be
loyal. It freaking hurts. But without loyalty, we're ghost ships. We got no strength. We got nothing. We got nothing. We got nothing. - I agree with you in a
deep fundamental sense, but there's pain that comes with that. I have to ask you to
introspect on this part of your life, because of
your value for loyalty, as people know, you and Cus
D'Amato trained young Mike Tyson and the interaction there between the three of you led to the three of you parting ways. Given your value for loyalty, can you tell the full story of what led up to this and maybe the pain you felt from that? - It was, I guess it was
the second time in my life I felt betrayed. The first time was when I was, whatever, young, 17, and I got arrested. I was with all these older
guys, tough guys, whatever. And, supposedly... And the detectives separated us. That's what they do. And you know, they asked
me who did whatever, who's gun, this, that, you know, all that, the particulars of obviously what we did. And, you know, "It was me."
And they say, "You sure?" You don't wanna change
that? You don't want... 'Cause your friends changed it. And these cops, they were
nasty, but they were cops. They were the way, you know, you're gonna wind up in Rikers with, and they're gonna be doing this to you. And I won't even say
the things because then why say them, you know, figure it out. But, you know, they're trying
to get what they're trying to get and, you know,
"You wanna change it?" And... No. But I felt very betrayed, you know? And especially when I
was standing in the cell in Rikers looking at the
airplanes leave LaGuardia Airport. And then hoping I was on one, you know, I was making like a deal with
God that let me be on one of those planes and let it crash. I'll take a shot. - Was part of you proud that you didn't give up your friends? - No, because I didn't
understand what proud was. I didn't understand nothing.
I just understood that... - Rules are rules. You're
just loyal and that's it. - I didn't even know there was an option. I didn't think there... I know the cops said you could do this, but that there was no option. My father never had an option. But the betrayal, the
private betrayal was like, and so when Cus... We were partners, me and Cus. - Yeah.
- Cus was retired. This stupid kid goes up
there and all of a sudden I start training fighters. First I wanted gloves,
Cus put me in the gloves, I wanted gloves that I had into, whatever. But bottom line is I still wanna fight. I want to turn pro, I wanna
fight. That was the plan. And Cus had a different plan. Cus was like, you can't, and he had it set up a
little bit, whatever, without getting into it,
hey, he did me a favor, and I'd like to think he
knew he was doing me a favor. And you know what? I do think he was. He was doing himself a little bit one too. But he was doing for the greater cause because he believed in
this thing of boxing. He believed that it changed lives. He believed that it was worthwhile. He believed that there was a power to it beyond the left hook. - The big picture of
boxing. He believed in it. - Yeah. He believed that to be a
champion, you had to be special. You had to be smart, you had
to have character. You had... That you had to be a better person and that you couldn't make a champion if you didn't make him
a better person first. And that this, you know,
this could strengthen people. The sport could strengthen
people in those ways. So he was married to it, and he was old and he needed, there was no one in the gym. It was empty. And it was above a police
station, which was crazy. And he needed an heir to the throne. He needed to pass it on to someone. And he saw something. And all of a sudden he saw that my career as
a boxer was less important than having me become
his an heir to the throne and become his trainer, his
man, his guy, to continue, that we could do a lot more
for him and for everyone. Not just for him, but for everyone. It was more like to keep it
going. Like it couldn't die. It couldn't die. And Cus was afraid that
it would die with him. And he committed his whole life to it. He didn't get married because of boxing. So he saw me as, you know,
the little bit of, you know, the seed to plant for more things to grow before that plant died. And so he, all of a sudden
he says, you can't fight. And I had people tell me that
I could go somewhere else and fight, and I could, but I couldn't. - Right.
- 'Cause I'd be disloyal. - Loyalty's everything.
- Yeah. So I couldn't leave Cus.
And he kind of knew that. And so, you know, I couldn't leave him. And he said, "You have
an ability to teach." He said, "Knowledge means nothing." He said, "See these Britannica?" He had Britannica encyclopedias, the whole set in our library. He said, "You see these?" Yeah, I see 'em. "All the knowledge of the
world," whatever, "is in these." All right. "Means nothing if you don't have somebody to convey it to people. Otherwise, it just sits on
a bookshelf. It looks good." He goes, "You have the ability to convey knowledge to people. You are a teacher. You
were born to be a teacher. You'd lessen yourself by only being a champion fighter because
you'd only take care of one person. You could take care of all kinds of people and you could do this and you could do that and you could do this." So we go on this venture, took a minute, 'cause I didn't believe him at first. But finally we, I am, I'm
there, I'm training fighters. And then he gets me to buy in, and I was a teacher and I
start teaching these kids and there's no one and the gym, it's dead. And all of a sudden there's 10 kids, 15,
20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45. Catskill Boxing Club, which was
never there. Now it's there. And I'm training fighters. I'm taking 'em down to South
Bronx to get experience. One of his former fighters
knows some others, down to South Bronx, I'm taking down there to get smokers, to get fights when they're
ready, after I teach, I'm wearing out dungarees. I'm getting holes in my dungarees. I was fashionable before
it was fashionable to have holes in my dungarees. I could've made a lot of money with that. 'Cause I was on my knees
with these little kids, 9 years old, 10 years old, 8
years old, 10 year, 12, 13, 14. All these kids. And I'm teaching and I'm building a gym. And Cus only came once a week because he was semi-retired, you know. And when he would come once a week, he knew he couldn't gimme money, but he gave me more than money. He gave me praise. Oh. And he said, "Look what Atlas is doing, he's creating champions!" And I was like, whoa. Yeah. Wow. I'm doing good. And then all of a sudden,
after four years of that, 'cause I was up there
seven years, eight years, eight years, after about three and a half, four years of that, we get a phone call that
they got this kid in prison in Tryon Prison, from one of the guys that knew Cus, Matt Pereski. And there's a state, there's a correctional
officer named Bobby Stewart who used to box and Cus had
helped him out a little bit. A little bit. And they knew we had this gym now that was really starting
to become something, because we were winning
tournaments and everything else. They're going, we got
this kid, Mike Tyson, he's 12 years old. He's 190 pounds. He's a mess. But Bobby Stewart got
involved with him, you know, the former fighter. And he's taken a liking to it. And now where he didn't behave at all and he didn't listen to
anyone now he's listening because Bobby's got a
carrot and the carrot is he teaches boxing. And now he's at the point
now where we want you to take a look, you and Teddy. All right. Bring him down. - What'd you think when
you first saw Mike Tyson? - Well, I wanted to see
his birth certificate. 'Cause he, 190 pounds, 12
years old and all solid? - Yeah. - You know, really? But yeah. - Just physically, just
as a physical specimen? - Yeah. And...
- Big guy. - Yeah. And listen, Cus was
right. I was a teacher. He was right. And he was
testing me even that day. He said, "What do you think?" So I said, well, we ain't
gonna know nothing in the bag. Who the freak cares about that? He knocked the bag down. We gotta put him in with, who, we got no one to put him in that way. They didn't have anyone
that way. We gotta test him. Everyone's gotta be tested. And so you gotta put 'em in, responsibly. But let's put him in. Just responsibly. But let's put him in with Bobby
Stewart, former pro fighter, had 14 pro fights. Smaller than Tyson. He was, when he was fighting, he was 175. But still, he's 28 years old. Tyson's 12. Come on. And he'll work with him. Right? So we do, we put him, Tyson,
he recognized the moment, he understood this was an
audition, this was a chance, you know, this was that TV show. Change your life. And he understood that if
he passed the audition, he could change, possibly change his life. He wasn't sure what, how
could he be sure what exactly, but it was better than what he had. And so he was on audition. So he wanted, he innately understood what we would wanna see. Ferociousness, toughness,
character, desire, you know, and of course ability. Well, we saw the ability, power, speed. But it was unbridled. It was untaught. It was raw. He didn't
know really much at all. At all. But we saw that. But he wanted to show more.
He knew that wasn't enough. Again, innate intelligence.
He had to show desire. He had to show toughness. And so I was being responsible, after two rounds, that's enough. Normally I don't put a guy into boxing until maybe four months,
five months, six months, eight months, 10... It depends what it takes to
learn on the floor before it's responsible to put him
in a ring to actually take on incoming real live
shells instead of blanks. And so normally I wouldn't have him in, and I knew after today, he wouldn't be in the ring
again if I trained him, I would teach him first
and then he'd get back in a few months. But for this day, it was the
only way, it's kind like, I used to make this
announcement and Cus loved it. He said, what's training a fighter? What do you look for
training a fighter, Teddy? You know, he asked me this
ridiculous question just to test me. And I say, "It's like
going to Macy's with..." Oh, he loved it. I said, "It's like go to Macy's window." And Cus, he goes, "What do
you mean, Macy's window?" You know, Cus was like boom boom boom. "What do you mean Macy's window?" "Oh, you go to Macy's window
and they get the window with everything you wanna see, everything in there and it looks great. Oh, everything." "And, yeah. And then what?" "Well then you ask
what's in the warehouse, and they tell you nothing." (Lex laughing) And Cus says, "That's
it. That's a trainer." And I wanted to see what
was in the warehouse. 'Cause I saw what was
in the Macy's window. I saw the power, I saw the speed. So he goes two rounds and
he gets a bloody nose. Here's the weird thing,
not weird, very telling. We knew what we were doing. Not bragging, but we
knew what we were doing, because he got a bloody
nose because he got hit. After that bloody, he never
got another bloody nose. You know why he didn't get
hit? 'Cause he learned. He was still strong,
but he was smarter now. Anyway, he goes two rounds and I saw, and I'm being responsible
because if he goes more, it's not responsible. I saw what I needed to see. I saw speed, I saw
power, I saw athleticism. And I saw, I didn't believe him. I thought he was lying to me. I'm just telling you,
I thought he was lying, trying to act tough when he
wasn't really feeling tough. It didn't matter. Cus questioned me on it
afterwards, "What did you see?" And when I said, he goes, "Young master," you know, again, he wasn't paying me money,
so he had to gimme something. Right? And that was better
than, that was currency. "Young master." I'm young master, whoa,
you know, "young master," you know what I mean? Like, I felt like that
guy kung fu, you know? Like in the movie, like
kung fu, grasshopper, when you're ready, when you could take this
outta my hand, you can leave. And...
- That's powerful. - Yeah. It was. It worked, Cus knew how
to work me. And he did. And it worked. And but you know what, I
didn't mind being worked. I kind of knew I was being
shuffled a little bit. - Well you're making it
sound a little bit negative, but it's also extremely positive. That's a teacher
instilling wisdom into you that you carried forward and
impacted a lot of people. - Yeah. Cus get the job done.
But he did it his way. And he did it for a myriad of reasons. And, but at the end of
the day it was all good. And I just had to understand
that eventually, later on. But... - And you do the same, you do things your way and
carry some of him in you, some of your father in you. - Yeah. That day... You know, that day was
funny because when Cus said, what did you see, Teddy? With him, after two rounds,
I got up in the ring. I knew I was gonna train him. Obviously we weren't gonna say no. And he still had about
four months to serve and we were gonna work it out. - [Lex] Yeah. - And when I got up on the ring apron, that's my gym, I'm the boss. You know, people later on
in life call me a dictator. You know what they said?
Yeah, you're right. I didn't deny, people
thought, you mean I'm right? Yeah. I'm a dictator. I'm a trainer. I'm the boss. I'm in charge. You wouldn't be here if I wasn't. What the frick you need me for if I'm not freaking in charge? You idiot. Yeah, yeah. Damn right. Well, what do you think? it's a shared responsibility? No, it's my responsibility.
That's why you're here. Yeah. Yeah, I am in charge. And you shouldn't be here if
you don't understand that. So I get up there and I know that I'm gonna be training them. I gotta show 'em who the boss is. You know, I'm being
really frank about this. So I get up there, I say,
"That's it, out. No, no." You know, this is Tyson. "No, lemme go. I wanna do another round.
I wanna do another one. I want... I said out. Did you hear what I said? Because I knew that, you
know, he was gonna test me. He was testing me. "I said get out." He got out. - But were you impressed
with the fact that he wanted to keep going or no? - Yes, and I recognized
what it really was. So Cus asked me, "What was that?" Cus wanna know what the young master saw. So Cus said, "What was that?" I said, "It was an act." He goes, "You saw that? Did he really wanna go?" I said, no. I said he didn't really wanna go, but he knew that we want him to go and he made himself ready
to go in order to satisfy. And that's just as good. And Cus said, damn
right it's just as good. All that matters was not how he got there, but that he got there. That's all that matters.
That he got there. That he got to the place
to act like a fighter. To do what we want him to do. To be ready to persevere, to
go beyond the comfort level, to do another round. He didn't want to, damn
right he didn't want to, but he knew we want him to. And he knew in order to pass
the test, he had to do it. And he said, you are right. He goes, now it's gonna
be your job to teach him, to make him a fighter that
don't get bloody noses, that don't get hit, and we'll get to that
place without being coerced to get there, to get to
that place on his own, instead of using the things
that he had to use to get to that place today. Those things are not going
to be available one day, when you, and listen to this, you talk about a man being prophetic 'cause it's pretty good. You talk about man being on
the job, on the money, Lex, he says, how do you think
he finishes the sentence? He goes, because someday
you, because, you know, you're gonna have to make sure that he learns these
things because, you know, he'll be your first heavyweight champ. What did you just say? He's 12 years old. - [Lex] Yeah, yeah. - He's been arrested 30 times. - [Lex] Yeah. - He's getting outta
jail out of, you know, juvenile detention try out, he's a mess in a lot of ways. There's a lot of things we find out later, a lot of problems, weaknesses. He goes, and you are,
that's part of your job. That'll be part of your job. And, but he really said that
he, and then he turned to him. He goes, "You wanna come
live with us, young man? You wanna be a fighter?" "Yes." Even that, Cus said to me later, what do you think about that? I said... - [Lex] The way he said yes. - The, yeah, the way he said, "Yes, sir." Yeah. He said, "What do
you think about that?" And we're talking, I said, ain't gonna be that polite in
a little while down the road. Again, he knew that that's
what he felt that he needed to project himself as to
present himself as to get to where he wanted to get to. He goes, you know? Yeah. - Did you see what Cus was seeing in terms of the heavyweight champion of the world? - No. Again, the easiest
answer would be yes. Teddy's just, Teddy knows, genius. Wow. Teddy's wow. No no. No. No. But again, it was my job. And I just, my job, it was
simple, simpler than Cus, Cus knew too much. I knew nothing. I just knew, you know,
rudiments of boxing, I knew what it took to be a
fighter and how to execute it. The steps of executing
it. So I took those steps. The rest of it, you get
blurred by those other things. I wasn't blurred by those other things. It was just, get 'em in the gym, make 'em mentally stronger, make 'em face things and
teach 'em how to slip punches, and create holes, and fill those freaking holes
with devastating punches, this is Cus, and what are you gonna do? I'm gonna teach 'em to
fill holes and fill 'em with punches with bad intentions. And that became the moniker. And then Tyson would say that I'm throwing punches
with bad intentions. Yes, you are. And, you know... - How do you make him mentally tougher? So that part of the job, the, you said the don't get a bloody nose, but the part of the job, what
makes him mentally tougher? How do you do that? - Most important part of the job. To make him face things. Make him face where he
is lying to himself, where he's submitting. But we start this conversation
with submission. Submit less. Submit less. Submit less every day. Submit less. Cus only come
to the gym once in a while. And if I had him sparring, he would come because
that was his project. That was the heavyweight. Now he came, you know, it put
life in Cus, Cus had life, he was losing a little life. But that made the light
bulb bright again. It did. And it was great to see.
I felt proud of that. I felt connected to that. And that's why when it
all went bad and Cus took the side that... The only side he could take, the side of the next
heavyweight champ of the world. But he left me, his
partner, the Young Master. And of the second time I
get betrayed and I'm like, for a while I thought
everything Cus taught me, said to me was a lie. I didn't wanna be any part of it any more. Until I got a little more mature, and I got a little past
that where I was able to understand, I was able to understand that just because so many that you perceived
as great in every area is you find to be weak in certain areas, doesn't mean that they can't
still be what they want to you. It's something that can
be understood or forgiven. It's hard, it's hard to get to that place, to forgive somebody in that kind of way that I felt betrayed. Because Cus told me the most
important thing was loyalty. Cus told me he loved
me because I was loyal, Cus told people that the
reason that he went to court was because I didn't give up anybody, even though it meant put me
in the risk of going to jail for 10 years. And Cus felt that he admired those traits. And so I assumed that he
would show the same traits. And he took a deal. He took a deal. He took a deal. He signed the papers
that those so-called feds might've signed. You know, he took a deal to, you know, to have the future heavyweight
champ as it turned out. And to let me, you know, to
let me go, to sign the deal, to let me take, you know, take the weight. - For people who don't know, Mike was inappropriate with
a young girl and you pulled the gun on him. I don't know if there's
deeper things to say about that situation, but
why do you think Cus made the decision to cut you
off from both Mike Tyson and from Cus, Cus D'Amato,
like to break that, when he valued loyalty so much. - I served my purpose, I got him to where he needed to get,
brought life back in the gym. If I wasn't in the gym
at that particular time, Tyson never would've been in the gym. There would've been no
gym to bring him to. When they called up and made
that phone call to bring him to the gym, there
would've been no activity. There would've been no boxing program. There would've been, you know, no trainer training
him 24/7 the way I was, where Cus wasn't capable
of doing that at that point in his life. But then again, it's not, poor Teddy. I get the benefit of a career. I get the benefit of knowledge.
I get the benefit of a life. I get the benefit of learning
,of becoming hopefully a better person. I got the benefit of being betrayed again. - That's a hell of a
statement right there. I don't know what the benefit of that is. - You can learn to forgive weakness. You know? When you realize how easy it is to be weak. And when you realize
that, somebody asked me, how did you get to the point
where you could forgive? Right? It's a pretty good question. Pretty simple, pretty basic,
pretty important. Right? And I didn't understand, I understood, but I did understand,
immediately, for me, I said, how can I not forgive somebody? It becomes easier to learn how to forgive when you're still trying
to forgive yourself. When you're still in the process of trying to forgive yourself for all
your own inherent weaknesses and betrayals of people, like my father, in different ways that
we forget very easily because it's handy and
it's a way of surviving. It's a lot easier to figure
it out, rationalize it, to find forgiveness when you realize that you still haven't
figured out completely how to forgive yourself. I'm still trying to figure that out. And so that helped me figure out how to forgive Cus, because to figure out how to forgive me, I had to understood
why I did these things. Where the weaknesses came from, where the selfishness came from, where the convenience came
from, that they really existed. But they didn't exist for malice. They existed for me not
being prepared to understand that I could be stronger,
to wanna be stronger. And then I looked at Cus,
he wanted to be stronger, but he got to a point in
life where he had been strong for a lot of his life. He was strong with me. He was strong with a lot
of things in his life. And does everyone deserve
a pass in life, where... He got to a place where
everything was in one basket. The basket of boxing. He once told me that he never got married 'cause it would've been selfish to a woman to have gotten married when
his whole life was boxing. That he couldn't give to a
kid. He couldn't give to her. He couldn't... And then I thought about
it, he had no money, really. And Jim Jacobs and Bill
Caden took care of the bills. So he didn't really need money that way. But the one, what was the
payoff of that kind of life? That kind of commitment?
That kind of sacrifice? Really, what was the payoff? The payoff was to have champions. To have a champion that
would keep your name alive. You know that word, legacy?
Like what does it mean? Sometimes it's just a word.
Sometimes it's more than a word. It's as a reprieve, it's a pension plan. Is being given a pension on
your way out for the rest of your life. For your life. Wherever you're going. You're going to... Wherever
you're going for eternity. It's the only thing that you take with you is what you left behind. And for Cus, it was all
about leaving behind a mark, a mark, that of champion. Yeah, it was attached
to ego. We all have it. Yeah. it was attached to some
selfishness and all, but, yeah, it was also attached to wanting to leave something great behind. To know that you were part of it. That you existed for a reason. That you sacrificed for a reason. And all that freaking
pain I brought my father, I was searching for something. Yeah, I made it into a righteous search. I made it into, I did. And I made it into, it was
okay because it was righteous. And I, but it still did
damage. It still did damage. It still hurt people. It still
betrayed my father's trust. And Cus betrayed mine. But he didn't do it maliciously. He did it out of, again... My father came home. This is how I'm gonna connect it. My father came home from
work one night, 12 o'clock, and I was waiting out, and like I said, I was over 9-10 years
old and he got mad at me. He goes, "Go to bed.
What are you doing up?" I said, "I'm waiting for
you. I'm waiting for you." And he said, "Well, go to bed." I said, "No, What were you doing?" He said, "I was at the
hospital." You were there... "Why were you there so late?" You know? He answered me. He said there was a patient,
there was a sick patient. I said, "Oh, he must be better now, because you're his doctor." You know, because my
father could fix anything. My father, nothing got in the
way of the truth. Nothing. Nothing. Even blowing his son's bubble. Matter of factly he said to me, "No, he's not gonna get better. He is gonna die." And... So as a 9-year-old kid,
you know, you're a kid. You're selfish. You know, not in a bad way, but, you know, you want what you... And I said... I said two things. First I said, how, you are
his doctor, how? It can't be. And then I said, I just
said it almost angry, "Then why were you there?" Like, you should have been here with me. - [Lex] Yeah. - And you know what he said to me? "'Cause you don't give up on life. Go to bed," and... - Don't give up on life. - And that's, I finally
connected the dots. This idiot, that didn't
graduate high school, I finally connected the dots. I was asking Cus to give up on life. You don't give up on life. You don't give up on aspirations of life. Life is all forms of life. It doesn't have to be a
physical form of it. It's life. It's having a reason to be alive. It's having a reason to have tomorrow. And Cus's only reason to have tomorrow was to have another heavyweight champ. And Teddy Atlas, even though we were together all those years, and we were partners
and we trained together and we were, you know, the only thing we didn't
do was what they did in the Indian movies
where they cut the finger and they became blood brothers. That's the only thing we didn't do. And I felt like we did
that. Without cutting. And now here we are.
- And still... - And he freaking betrayed me, this! And then all of a sudden
I connected the dots. I was like, he didn't betray
me in that cold sense. He didn't give up on life.
- Didn't give up on life. Years later, Mike Tyson apologized to you. What's meaningful to you about that? How does that fit the story? - I wanna be the great
gracious guy right now. Say, oh, I'm so human that, you know, a man's man enough to say, sorry. That's it. We're good. I wanna be, really, that's the best
presentation of Teddy Atlas I could put out there. He's a good guy. He forgives. He's a good guy. He's a standup guy and he's
a good guy. I'm not sure. If he truly did it for himself, that he really did it because he felt that it was true. But if he's persuaded by other things, he was in the middle, I
know I'm taking it too deep, I know it, but what am I gonna do? He was in the middle of 12
steps with the, you know, getting out of drugs, alcohol, 12 steps. Which is a commendable
thing, really, it is. And he's taking the steps. And part of the steps was to admit all, to apologize to all people
you offended in life. Okay. But are you doing it for the 12 steps or are you doing it
because you really truly have come to terms with
believing what you did? Was that hurtful to me? And that it matters to you
that it was that hurtful to me. And that you were wrong in doing it. Did you do it for... I know that's deep. I know that I'm a freaking idiot. I'm a, you're a Teddy freaking, you are... You should be better than
that. He's better than you. Maybe he is better than me. Maybe he is. Really? Seriously. Maybe he is. And I took it. He put his hand, I took it. We hugged. He said, I love you. I, yeah, yeah. But I wanna believe, but
what did Cus tell me? No matter what a man says, it's what he does in
the end that he intended to do all along. So to this day today, was it really genuine or was
it reflexive of that moment for him to get what he needed
to, you know, for that step? Or was it truly for what I needed, to really that he really
cared, that what he did to me, caused me to do what I did, because I did something that
was pretty damn bad to him too. Is he able to deal with that and put that where it has to be put? Is he able to put that? Or is it just he did
something he had to do and maybe he's sorry he did it. I know him... Look, I appreciated that he, I would've rather been in a private place. - Yeah. So what people don't know, you were in the middle
of commentating a fight and he walked up from
behind you and he said he was sorry, he shook
your hand, gave you a hug. I didn't know he said, I love you. - Yeah. He's emotional. I get
emotional a little bit too. But he's emotional. And he can be... I can see why people have a fascination and a love affair with him right now. 'Cause he was, because, you know, he was, the meteor, the meteor that went
across the sky that is, if they didn't see it, their
parents told him about it. There was a meteor that
came across the sky one day. And the meteor's walking
around in the room now. And that's the meteorite. And it actually landed here. And that's it right there. And now he's come a long way. And now he's, you know,
he's more human and he's lovable, you know, and compassionate. And he cries. And I get the fascinating,
I get the love affair. I get it. Because we're inherently, we're
people that wanna forgive. We're people that... We wanna be good. And part of being good
is to forgive people and to show compassion to people. And so, and when somebody's been damaged, to acknowledge they've been damaged, to acknowledge that, you know they've been damaged and you care about them being damaged
and how do you show care? Through admiration, you know, in some ways almost through adulation. And he's getting adulation
from people like, you know, which is to an incredible level, and it's because, it's a phenomena. But I get it. I understand it. And... I don't know if he gets it. I don't know if underneath all of this... He's a complex guy. He's a sensitive guy. I don't know. And I am too. - Yeah. One complex guy talking
about another complex guy. - I don't know if underneath it all, where he's really truly at, as far as that day that
he said that to me. - Is there part of you
that's sorry to Mike, for pulling-
- I'm not sorry. - Pulling the gun on him?
- Yeah. And that's, listen, that's fair. I know dimensions of
human nature too well, to not know that he still
has to have certain, because I have those strong feelings. What? It's not fair for him to have them? Damn right it's fair. Now, he could look at it, if he was to be held
to his word that night, that he just acknowledges
that what happened he deserved because of what he, you know, the position he put me
in and he put himself in, what he did? And I wouldn't change nothing. You know? - But still, you don't regret
pulling the gun on him? - I regret that I had to. I regret very much that I had to, that, I regret very much. - He crossed the line. - I hated him for putting
me in that position, that, you know, how dare he think that somebody's feelings are that trivial, that the
way I would feel about myself and the way the girl
would feel about herself, that was 11 years old at the time, how she would feel about herself. How dare that he think it's that trivial that, you know, that I shouldn't be ready
to freaking to both die and kill for that. - Why didn't Cus D'Amato
see it in a deeper way and talk through it? - He did. The word came back to me. But
of course, what does it mean? But the word came back to me
that Cus said you were right. But if he took the side of Teddy, he would destroy
potentially a great fighter. - Why do you think that... Okay, if you were to try
to understand the point he was making, why is that true? Isn't the part of greatness
that you said is building the character of knowing what
is right, what, you know? - Cus was afraid to go there where he used to not be afraid. Because it's kind of
like you're never afraid of going up. And I get it, you know,
when I train a fighter now, if I come out of retirement, I train a fighter now, I feel in camp like I'm on death row every day. That if... Every day, I try to
retrace my memory and say, did I feel this way when I was younger? I don't remember feeling this way. I feel every day a dreadful
feeling that if I don't get this right, I betrayed everything. I betrayed the fighter's trust. I betrayed what I'm supposed to be. And then one day I tried to figure it out, why do I feel this way so intense? I was in camp for two months, training a guy for the world title a couple, few years ago, fighting the hardest puncher
in the world at the time. Adonis Stevenson. And the
fighter was Ukrainian. And I was, you know, brought in to train him for that fight. And he trusted me, and changed
his whole style. Trusted me. Oh my God, I went to bed every night like praying,
dread, waking up, dread, my stomach down to here, every day saying, what if I fail him? What if everything that I told him was gonna happen don't happen? What if I fail him? What if he trusted me and
I betrayed that trust? And the thing was, with Cus was, you know, he used to be stronger than that. And then I tried to figure
it out why I got this way and why it was so dreadful
to me and why I felt like I was on death row every
day training a fighter. Like, did I do enough? Did I do right? Will we accomplish what we, will we accomplish what I
promised him we would accomplish? Would I keep my word? And then I started thinking, well, how did I become this weak? How did I freaking become, I was a pretty strong freaking guy. How did I become this weak? And then finally, I think I
figured it out. You know why? Because I was always working to get up. But once I finally got up, now I was looking down
and it finally hit me. I said, I didn't wanna lose. I said there was nothing
to lose on my way up. Now all of a sudden, there's something to
lose when you're up there and you're looking down. - That's where he was. - And that's where Cus was. Cus was at the end of his rope. He accomplished the two world champs. All this stuff, right? Everything. He, and he did it right. Now all of a sudden it
wasn't about moving forward, it was about not falling down. Holy cow. I was like, I
got it, Cus, I got it. I got it. You didn't wanna fall down. Oh my God, you didn't wanna fall. And he, this was his last chance... You don't give up on life. This was his last chance to live forever. To make everything he did worthwhile. To have the youngest... It wasn't just heavyweight
champ, you gotta remember, he was the youngest
heavyweight champ ever. And to have that, it was okay to die now. And how's loyalty to someone
named Teddy Atlas gonna get in the way of that? That's a tidal wave that there ain't no wall
that's been made high enough to stop that tidal wave. And now I'll stop myself. Yeah, there is, but it would
have to be awful big one. And you know what, who are we to say that we could ever
build that wall that big? Who's any of it? Who am I to say? - Do you think, if you were to put yourself
in the shoes of Cus, Cus D'Amato, can you see yourself having the big enough wall? Or you would choose loyalty? - Now, if I answer the way I feel, then I'm, you know, I'm making myself John Wayne again. - You don't have to answer that. I think loyalty, loyalty is important. - No matter what a man says, it's what he does in
the end that he intends to do all along. I didn't make that up, Cus did. And when this all went down, those words came freaking
echoing into my freaking ears. I didn't want them. Cotton doesn't help. And they freaking kept
coming into my ears. And what do you think,
still an immature kid at the time, you know, I was young, still an immature kid at the time, what the freak do you
think my response was? You were full of... - Yeah.
- But I got past that. - Do you forgive Cus? Have you found forgiveness? - Listen, I forgive him
because he gave me more than he took away from me. If I can't, what kind of man am I to, if I can't at least acknowledge that and be grateful for that. He gave me more than he took from me. And I'm grateful for that. I'm also grateful for what I gave him, that I had, you know, that
I did give him something. And at that point in his life, you know, a place, a place to still, to still have test tubes
and chemistry experiments. You know? A laboratory where you could
still create a great fighter. And I helped give him that. I helped, I was part of
that lab and making sure that lab was there and just
that there was the existence of test tubes in the place. Because you can't freaking do experiments without test tubes. - Now you're the scientist,
with the test tubes. - Yeah. I guess so. And I just hope that, what I said earlier is really, it's really my thread through this whole thing. When you say, can you forgive Cus? I'm still trying to forgive myself. And if I can have hope
that I can forgive myself, I think that hope has
to start with the power to forgive someone else. How can I ever forgive
myself for all my failings and figure it out if I
can't start and practice it by forgiving someone else
for some shortcomings? And for me, that's the only sense of sometimes a very hard thing to make sense of. That's my North Star. That's my compass. Cus used to make me laugh. You know, me and him
did everything together and we drive and we get lost in the city. We get lost in the Bronx
and he'd get all frustrated and he said, "Atlas,
you are a great trainer, but turn you around, you spin you around and you're lost." And I said, "Me or we?" Because I was the only one
who would argue with him. And it was really funny
sometimes. And I said, we or me? We or... He goes, "Ah, I don't get..." "Cus, you are lost! I'm lost! What are you talking about?" And then all of a sudden
Cus couldn't give in. He just couldn't admit,
he couldn't give in. You know what he said to me,
all of a sudden, he goes, "When I was in the army,
if I had a compass, I could get out of the woods." I said, "We're not in the
woods, we're not in the army, we don't have a compass. Cus! Cus!" "Just, don't argue with me." One time we're driving, I wanna get back to Catskill. We just finished at the Bronx. It's been a long day. You know, visiting the other ring, houses and everything else that he took me through for the 1800-time. And he would fall asleep. You know, he was getting
older and he would... And he would just fall asleep in the car. So what do you think?
I went a little faster. Right? Because before he went to
sleep, he said, don't speed. So I don't consider myself,
I try to be an honest guy. I try to be a freaking, but, you know? - It was the fight with six guys. - What did I say earlier?
Try to do less submitting. - Yeah.
- Really, in all places. Try to submit a little less. Try to lie a little less
today, a little less. Try to get stronger. Try
to get a little better. So here we are and we're driving and all of a sudden he's, what did I do? 80, 75? Probably. Probably did,
you know, whatever. And all of a sudden he wakes up. "You were speeding." Oh, I lied. "No, I wasn't." "Don't lie." "I'm not lying." "You lied again. You were speeding." Now, come on. This guy,
he's, you know what I mean? He's unbelievable. So I gotta freaking, you know, he's David Copperfield. I wanna know the trick. I wanna know how he freaking,
he made this thing disappear. So I said, what are you
talking, how do you know? He goes, "'Cause I timed you. I looked at the post
number," and I'm like, what? "I looked at the post number
on the side of the road where we were," whatever mile, that. And I never knew they even existed. I look and I said, yeah,
there's little numbers. - You start timing and then fell asleep. - Yeah. He timed it and he looked, he goes, "We couldn't have got from
here to there in that amount of time, unless you were
going 75 miles an hour." And I'm like, all right.
- Smart man. - All right. I'm impressed. Don't try to get the mileage. The mile per hour part right. It's enough that you
got me. That's enough. I'm... Yeah. I said, and I'm not gonna do that now. I'm, you know, and just, he helped me in crazy ways
where there would be times where I wanted to be, you
know, where you wanted to be, whatever. Right? Convenient, weak, submit. Right? And then all of a sudden,
all of a sudden Cus, in my mind, Cus was
there with the stopwatch (laughs) and I'd be like, you know, no. You know, where I was about
to say yes to whatever that particular situation was. (phone ringing) - Somebody had to call. Hello? Hello. Yes. Doing great. Thank you. Just for the record, never
had a phone call like this. It's hotel security. The question is he asked
me is, "Are you okay, sir?" Are you okay? Are we okay? - I think so. I think so so far. - [Lex] Yeah. - You know, I can only go like so far. It's kinda like that old joke, you know, where the guy jumps off
the Empire State Building? And he's falling down. And he's
going, you know, 80th floor. 70th floor. 60th floor. 50th. And he gets past the 50th floor and they're looking him
out the window and he goes, "How am I doing?" "So far so good." I don't know where it's gonna end, but... - So Mike Tyson is
considered by many to be one of the great boxers, one
of the greatest boxers of all time, heavyweight boxers. What do you think on the
positive side made him great? - I don't know if he was ever great. I know he was sensational. I know he was the greatest
mix of maybe speed and power ever. I know he was one of the greatest punchers from either side of the
plate, left or right. There's been great punchers
with just the right hand. Like Earnie Shavers and
Deontay Wilder and Max Baer. I don't know if there's ever been anyone who could punch as good
as he did on either side with either hand, other than
Joe Louis and a few others. I don't know if there's
ever been such a combination of speed and power to that
pure level that he had. And it was a pure level. I don't know if there was
ever as good a fighter as Tyson was for maybe
one night he was great where he wasn't tested, but he might've been ready
to be tested that one night against Michael Springs. And when he took him apart in 90 seconds, I think I saw a great fighter that night. I don't think you can be
great unless you have all the requirements of being great. - What does it take to be a great fighter? Truly great. - To not rely on someone's
else's weakness to be strong. To be strong on your own. Too often he relied on
other people's weakness, whether it's by being
intimidated or whether it was because his talent was
so much greater than theirs that it was like putting
a monster truck in there with a Volkswagen. And the Volkswagen was gonna get crushed. No matter how much horsepower
the Volkswagen might've had under the hood and
you put under the hood, it was gonna get crushed. The monster truck was not
gonna allow it to be a contest. And to be able to find a way
when your talent wasn't enough. He didn't find a way when
his talent wasn't enough. And I'm not making
statements if I'm not ready to put some evidence, you know, like if we were in a courtroom, exhibit A, when he fought Buster Douglas... Buster Douglas matched his will and didn't get intimidated,
stood up to him. He didn't do what most people did. He didn't submit even a
little bit. Not that night. He had in the past, but
that night he didn't. Why? Because Buster had a secret
weapon that night. His mother. Buster's mother had died
a few months previous. He loved his mother very much.
Buster had always had talent. Big heavyweight, talented,
can punch, technically solid. He was all those things. Always was. But he quit in fights. He did
less than he should have done. He never lived up to his ability. He gave in, he submitted,
he wasn't strong enough. He never had a reason to be strong enough. When his mother died, he had a reason. Nothing could hurt him as much
as his mother dying hurt him. Mike Tyson included. That night Mike Tyson
could not hurt him as much as his mother had hurt him by dying. That night he had a reason
to be strong for his mother. And he was strong. He was everything he was
supposed to be and more. And he stood up to Mike. And Mike for the first time
maybe ever was in a fight where he had to overcome something, where he had to be more
than talented, more than a puncher, more than a
guy with scintillating speed. And he wasn't. And then that night got followed by another night with Holyfield. Holyfield wasn't as
talented as him, as big, as much a puncher. But Holyfield had the character. He was strong in ways
that Tyson wasn't strong. He was strong in a way
where he could find a way. He was willing to find a way. He's willing to go to the cliff, to truly die before he submitted. You know, a lot of stuff is just words. They're gonna have to
carry me out on the shield. Yeah, sure, sure. Okay. Yeah. Until it comes time to
be carried out on the shield. Sometimes there's people
that actually mean it. - [Lex] You think Mike didn't have that? - Well, all right, let's
just say arbitrarily, I don't have his record on me. Let's say he was 55 and 5. I know he had about 5 losses. All right. Let's say he was 55 and 5. Right? A lot of knockouts. I have a saying, a fight's not a fight until
there's something to overcome. Until then it's just
an athletic exhibition. Contest. Yeah. Who's a better athlete? Who's got more quick twitch fibers? Who's more developed? Who's in better this, who's more developed in
those physical areas. But a fight is not a fight until there's
something to overcome. Okay? So if you go by my definition, not
Webster's, my definition, which I think means something... Mike Tyson was only in
five fights in his life. The five fights where there
was something to overcome, and he didn't overcome it. Now, I know people hate me
for this, including Tyson. I understand. Hate me. Oh, you are a hater. 'Cause you weren't with 'em, you didn't make the money because this, because of that, because you got betrayed. I think I'm better than that.
I hope I'm better than that. I believe I'm better than
that. I'm not a hater. I've broadcast fights for
25 years on ESPN where there was some people in the
corner I did not like. And if they did a good job,
this guy's doing a great job. And then there were guys that I liked and I had friendship, he messed up and we
weren't friends no more. Friendship gotta be tested. Remember that? So we weren't friends no
more. But why did I do that? Because it was my job. It
was more important for me... When it's all over with, the only thing you are
left with is, I mean, we're gonna be dust, all of us, right? The only thing we're left
with is what carries on, our reputation, you know,
legacy, whatever that is. But our reputation, that's
all we're left with, and that's all our kids are left with. I want it to be as good as it can be. I've always had a ability, I've done a lot of things wrong and I've
had a lot of lackings. But the one strength I've
had, if I had a strength, is to understand, somehow,
through osmosis, I guess, to learn the lesson that was important is not what's in front of
you for those five seconds, for that moment in life. It's what's left behind
you when those five seconds are gone, when that what, whatever it is that you're
dealing with, you know, whatever the, that moment
is, whatever, that moment, what you do in that moment, the action of that moment is
gonna stay with you and be you. It's gonna become you. What you face for that moment... It's gone. It's gone in
the air, in an instant. It's gone. It's done. Whether you stand up there
and you get shot in the head and the guy freaking blows your brains out or you freaking, you stand up, or you're fighting a guy
who's like a scary guy to fight, but you fight
him and you beat him or he beats you up. But how you represented yourself in that moment is all that matters. That's gonna live... What
happened don't matter. It don't matter that you
got shot in the head. I know that sounds absurd, but if you believe that it
was important to stand up and take the chance to get shot in the freaking head
rather than to live like an empty vessel, you know what? That's all that freaking matters. And somehow that got freaking wrapped into this freaking head of mine. Like, that's what matters.
That's all that matters. You know how many times I went and there were things, whether it was with this
one, with Tyson, with that, I didn't wanna be there,
I was scared to death, but I was more scared,
I was more scared... - Living with regret?
- How I would've felt. - [Lex] Yeah. - I don't wanna be in
solitary confinement the rest of my life with that
freaking guy in the cell next to me called regret. I don't freaking wanna
be next to that guy. If I wanna freaking go down
that road, I'll watch Papillon. You know what I mean? And I'll get my fill from that. But I don't wanna freaking live it. I'm afraid of what my
children would think of me if I fail in those areas. Why? Because that's forever. When I'm closing my
eyes for the last time, I don't wanna have that fear. I don't wanna have that fear, you know, whether I'm going down there
or whether I'm going up there. You know, I laugh because
I was around guys years ago that used to, when we
talk about that, you know, in jest, you know, and I would get a kick out of this one guy who've
been around the block a few times when he say, "Hey Teddy, I ain't worried about that. I
got friends in both places." (both laughing) - That's a good line. - And I thought it was good. Listen, Mike Tyson, you want me to say he was a great fighter? Then you want me to betray what I really, you know what I mean? You want me to do that? I ain't doing it for, listen, I could do it to be a bigger Teddy Atlas and I know it would work for me. I know it would be, it'd do
great promotional work for me. I know it would make me more
popular in certain area. I know it. I'm not that dumb. I'm not that dumb. But I also know what
else it would do to me. And I don't want it to do that to me. I think he was a great talent. I think maybe the night
with Michael Spinks, maybe the night with Mike, maybe he could've been that fighter. Maybe he could. But he didn't never really get tested. But he might've been ready no matter what, I have to be tested that
night. That's how good he was. That's how for, even though
it was a guy who used to be a light heavyweight, I get it, but was still a guy who beat Larry Holmes, who still had something
left, Michael Spinks. So, and a great puncher and an Olympic gold medalist,
but, and a special fighter. One of the great light
heavyweights of all time. You know what Mike Tyson
was? He was a meteor. He was a meteor that struck across, and not too many meteors,
and we still talk about him, and unlike Halley's Comet, he came back and he's walking
around and he has become greater after his career, more loved, more beloved, more awed. And he's been forgiven. He found the fountain of
forgiveness. I don't know. I wish I could find that. Where he has been forgotten
for all his shortcomings. All the things that he may
have done, may not have done. We don't know. Only him and God know. But he's been forgiven of all that. And he's been not only forgiven, he's rised above it and above that and been brought above that, he's been brought to the pyramids of the greatest athletes
that, in the world. And in every way. In every way, as a person, as a fighter, as a historian, as a
figure, as a celebrity. I mean-
- As even a philosopher. - Everything. So I will take it back. All right? All you guys out there, you forgive me? He's the greatest of all time if you encapsulate all that, if you encapsulate everything
I just tried to describe and explain, if you put that all, he's the greatest of all time. Yeah, he is. But he still might be 0-5. In a record of 55 fights, he might, in Teddy Atlas's book, again,
I got friends in both places. So it's okay, wherever
I go, I have company, somebody there will like
me, despite me saying this, he might be 0-5 because
of 5 fights where there was something to overcome,
which really defines a fight. He came, he didn't find a way. - Let me ask Teddy Atlas to introspect on the human nature here. As part of the complexities
of your feelings on this whole thing is that
you know, to some degree, that if you were coaching Mike Tyson, he could be truly great? - I know, I'm gonna cut you
right off because you asked a million dollar question. I wish you didn't, but you did. You did. 'Cause that's why...
- When do I get paid? - That's why you get paid. I get it. You took the
words outta my mouth. That's why you are where you are. And that's why I'm here. - [Lex] (laughs) The humility. - I'm going to, again, full disclosure, it's important, right? I'm gonna cheat, I'm gonna
take some of Cus's wisdom. All right? A little bit of mine. Cus told somebody that if
Teddy Atlas got his way, he might've been a better person, but we would've risked him
not being a great fighter. Now, I believe, and I thought Cus did, and I think he did up to
that point in his life, that part of your strength
of character made you a great fighter, and
truly a great fighter. And part of that battle
to be a better person, that fight, if you will,
to be a better person, to overcome the things,
to be a better person, part of that fire you
have to go through to be a better person. I really truly bought into
it. And I'm in for life. That is really the only
way to be a great fighter. And I don't think that's what Cus meant. I thought he meant, I think he meant that
Cus knew more than I did of what was about to
come and what would come and what the world was. How people would try to steal him, how people would take him, and how people would steal his guy. The last thing he had, the really, the thing that he lived for, 'cause he lived to have
another heavyweight champ, the greatest fighter ever, Cus, in Cus's mind, he could be. And I believe that Cus knew that he could put forward a guy that had the ability to be the greatest fighter ever, without fully completing
the mission of what it takes to really be great, but that he wouldn't be
around to have to witness it. And that he wouldn't, he was
willing, he would, oh man, this is awful. He's willing to concede that
he might be dead in order to have eternal life, in
order to have greatness. And which Cus does have greatness. And part of that greatness
is attached to Tyson. And he deserves it. He deserves
it, Cus was a great man. And I wouldn't be here partly without him. - But that was part of the calculation. - I know that's deep and
I know that's, oh God, I hate myself right now. But Cus, he knew he was getting out free. He knew he was gonna not have to be there. He was getting off easy. Oh, Teddy, how do you say
someone's gonna be dead, they're getting off easy? Well, I'll say it again in case you didn't hear me, all right? He was gonna get off
easy and not have to face where he came up short. Because he did his job. 'Cause he put forward the
greatest fight of all time and you guys screwed it up. And he knew that that might happen. But you guys screwed it up. And whatever. That's your fault. That's on... I'll tell you, Tyson will be mad at this, but that's on Tyson. How can you say that, Teddy, he loved me. I'm not saying he didn't
love you, but he loved him. He loved some other stuff too. And I don't know if Tyson could ever come to grips like with that. And it's not his job to. But it's my job not to hide from it. I know Cus mentions that other people just only think they know. - Did Cus know? Did Cus know this about
himself? Did he reflect? Did he introspect? - Well, he sent the message to me. Cus sent a guy to me.
My wife was pregnant. We were living in an apartment in Catskill on Coe Hill Road. We went through all this. And I was getting ready to move to Staten Island, and we
still were there for a little while before we did. You know, after all this went down. He sent a guy to me, to the house, secret, whatever you wanna call it. My wife, me. So, I listened to him. Cus said, if you leave, I'm a messenger, you know,
whatever, if you leave, this was in a aftermath of
what, the gun, the whole thing. You gotta remember Tyson
was a ward of the state. He was put in Cus's custody.
Cus was looking to adopt him. For obvious reasons. So he
had control, and he loved him. How dare I say anything less? I won't. But it made sense too. But he
was a ward of the state still. Do you know what that
means? There's rules. It means the state's still overlooking it. If he ain't living the
right life, you know, you gotta remember he came out, you know, he came out of a jail. So reform school. But if he ain't living the life, he could be taken away from Cus. What's not living the right life? Well, he wasn't in school no more. They didn't know about it. He had some things that were going on. We won't get into that right now, in school and different things, whatever. And he had his trainer
put a gun to his head. That ain't so good. If a report came back to
them that that happened, he would've been taken away from Cus. That couldn't happen. Nobody knows this. I talk about it a little
bit, but never probably, because why would I, I don't know. Why am I doing it now? I don't
know because I don't know. Because I am, because it's now, because it's now maybe, maybe because it's now, I don't know. So he sent this man that, you
know, obviously we both knew, and he said, here's the deal, Teddy, no talk about this, wants
it to, you know, disappear, basically, you leave and he
will give you 5%, his word, can you imagine? He will give you 5% of
Tyson's earnings for the rest of his career. But I don't regret it one
bit 'cause it wouldn't have happened anyway. See that's where I could be honest with my, people say, oh, stand up guy. Because I told him to shove
it with the, you know, in that place, and tell Cus
shove it in that freaking place. You know, I was mad. Teddy,
Teddy, don't get angry. Don't get angry? Are you outta? You serious? Get outta here. Tell
'em to go shove it over. And you know, my wife was like, huh. But, and then people like after, "Why didn't you take the deal?" It wasn't a deal. It was an escape clause for Cus, it was an insurance
policy that his, you know, that this kid wouldn't
be taken away from him. And thank God he wasn't, I
wasn't gonna go and say nothing. They didn't have to worry
about, Cus forgot who I was? Cus forgot why he went to court for me? Because of those characteristics
that he said he loved and he noticed and that he admired? I didn't lose those... He
forgot that that was me? He forgot who he was talking to? He didn't have to do that. How about that's why I told
him to shove it up his... Not because of the other insult. and then when people said to me, "Oh, you a stand up," because
it was around a little bit. It was around in the circles. And then when people,
oh, oh, stand up Teddy, he didn't care about the money. I said, stand up Teddy?
What are you talking about? How about just realistic Teddy, how about I live in a real world that I was never gonna get that money. So I'm saying, I'm
standing up to something that I knew never existed. So I ain't stand up. Not in that way. I am in other ways maybe, but not, don't put a medal on my chest for that. Because that never existed. It was never meant to exist.
But he didn't even understand. That was the one thing that
really disappointed me in Cus. I was like, Cus, you really
allowed this to get to you. Where you allowed it to
really fog up your thinking to the point where
you're smarter than that, you're better than that. That you would actually think
you gotta freaking offer me a freaking pieces of silver? You really think that? That's what you... Freak you! Like all that you told me that you love me and that we were, I was the young master and all this and you think you were gonna buy me? And I was gonna, and that
was gonna keep me quiet? How about I would keep quiet because I would always keep quiet. - So he thought maybe
you might betray him. - Isn't that interesting? Yeah. And why did he think that? No, no, really. - Fear.
- Yeah. But yeah, fear is at the
essence of everything, it is connected with everything. Fear of losing what he was gonna lose. But it was more than fear. It was him not believing in
the things that he told me he believed in. He didn't even know that. He believed in me because
I was a stand up guy. because I didn't sell
myself, because I, you know, I didn't freaking turn
evidence. I didn't make a deal. I didn't do... And that's why he went to court and that's why he stood up
for me and I appreciate it. And that was what he lived by and that was his, you know, those were the blocks of being a man. Oh, so much for those blocks. - Well it's like you said,
loyalty requires, you know, he would've had to take a
risk on losing immortality that he would achieve by creating a great heavyweight champion. - 100%. But the only way you
ever find out if somebody is really that... - It's hard, it's hard.
- Is the test. And it was Cus. - This is Shakespearean. You know? This story. - Cus told me, Cus said, "And it just come in different forms." I said, all right, Cus.
- This was his test. - "And some people pass this
test because they're able to pass that test because
it's not really a test. Not for them because it doesn't
speak to their weakness. But it's the test that
speaks to the weakness. That's the one." So this one, I get it. I get what it spoke to, Cus. You know what, at the end of the day, I forgive you and I feel bad for you. I feel bad that you were put in that position after you
lived your life that way. And that you taught that and you preached that from the mountaintops. That you had to be... That you had to be... I'm not gonna use the word, but that you had to fail
yourself and that you had to somehow know that before you died. I just prayed that you didn't know that. And you still don't know
that because you were great. You were great. And you've given me some, you know, you've given me
something to aspire towards, to try to be less weak, try to be better and try to be as good as you want it to be. I wish I can someday. More importantly, I wish I could make my father, you know, feel, just feel good up there. - You're a grandfather now. - Yeah. Four grandchildren. - What, if you can give
him advice on how to live a life they can be proud of? - Just... Do everything you can to the best of your ability every day. To like yourself. To
give yourself a reason. To actually say, I'd like
to be friends with that guy. - Is loyalty one of the reasons, one of the things to aspire to? - Loyalty is your chance
to have a fulfilled life. Loyalty is your chance to have strength, to have all the things you
need to have a good life, to be a good parent, be a good husband, be a good grandfather,
hopefully be a good role model. Loyalty is... Loyalty is, if you could
find something to drink, to take into your body to
make you prepared for life, to be all the things that you wanna be, to be strong enough to be those things, loyalty would be the
thing you would drink. And when I say loyal,
I mean unequivocally. I mean, you know,
unconditionally, not conveniently, obviously you know that. If you could be loyal, you
could be a good person, you could be a person that
you would actually like to be around. 'Cause you could be a
person you could rely on. And I think that's one
of the greatest assets that a human being can have. - And what do you do when you're betrayed? How do you overcome that? - You think of what you learned from it. Use it as a roadmap to remember, and to think back of how you got there. And how you got to the
place where you got betrayed and how that person got to that place. Try to remember that in your own journey. - Has it, for you, made you cynical? Like how do you try, how do you take the leap of
trust towards people again and again after that? - Just by remembering
that I'm still trying to forgive myself for the things
that I came up short with. And if I haven't figured that out yet, it's probably okay to say they didn't figure it out yet. They didn't get it, they
didn't figure it out. And if I couldn't figure it out, and I'm still trying to figure out, maybe I could get over
that initial stabbing of what it feels like,
it does feel kind of like a stabbing, that you feel when you're betrayed initially, and that you can only think
of anger, revenge, hatred, and those things I'm not proud of that, but I felt all those things, you know, and I still feel 'em sometimes. And then I go back and say, hey, you're still working at forgiving
yourself for some things. Try to remember that kid, you know, memory's an important thing. Forgetfulness is pretty important too. And try to remember why we forget. (laughs) Why do we forget? Because it wasn't something
you felt proud of. - You think about your death? Are you afraid of it? - You know, it's funny you asked that. I never used to think about it. I know people in both places, you know? - I know. You've got it covered. (laughs) You're gonna be all right. - Don't forget that.
- Yeah. - I know people in both places. - Yeah.
(both laughing) Both neighborhoods. - I... I've been given credit for being brave in certain spots in life. I hope I can be brave when it comes time to leave life. I hope I can be. You know, and that's, you know, that's as real and honest
as you can be about it. I hope I can be, you know,
so far so good. You know? When I've had to be certain
things that were scared to freaking death, I
found a way to beat them, for the most part. And so I figured when that day comes, I'll figure that out too. - [Lex] It's gonna be another test. Maybe the last one. Teddy, it's a huge honor to talk to you. - It's my pleasure. - Thank you for being the human you are. For being honest, honest about the full
range of human nature. And thank you for talking today. - Thank you. Thank you for having me,
and thanks for listening. - Thanks for listening
to this conversation with Teddy Atlas. To support this podcast, please check out our
sponsors in the description. And now let me leave you with
some words from Muhammad Ali. "I hated every minute of
training, but I said, don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest
of your life as a champion." Thank you for listening and
hope to see you next time.